AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ac

March 16, 2001 - April 03, 2001



      
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Date: Mar 16, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Joining a bunch of wires
> >Same problem here guys, Im installing my uMonitor, there are 3 different >areas where several wires have to wind up in one little molex pin. I bought 2 >of those terminal blocks from Radio Shack, they are really heavy, especially >when you add 30 ring terminals. I am thinking about just soldering them all >together on to one wire, anyone else done this? >Kevin -9A >Im a E-lectrikian now unkle Jed Long strips of screw terminals should be the last choice of wire joining solutions. I won't say they're not used in some situations but we work really hard to minimize their use. When they are necessary, use a thread locker on the screws. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel system failure . . .
> >in regards to the fuel primer , what do you mean by primary system failure? >is this where you would be using a fuel flow meter with the vane paddles in >it ? they do warn to have a bypass in a system like this. i have used >two different types of electric primers that i put together , worked great >and were cheap. if you want i could tell you how i did it .........marty Some years ago(I believe I may have written about the idea in my first issue of the AeroElectric Connection) I suggested that builders consider a backup fuel delivery system. I opined that it was pretty easy to do . . . in fact, lots of certified airplanes are already fitted with a rudimentary backup system. DataPoint 1 I've read dozens of hangar flying stories over the years where a pilot suffered a variety of normal fuel delivery system failures (broken throttle linkage, stuck float in carb, plugged fuel lines, etc) and managed to nurse his airplane to a comfortable landing by stroking the primer pump. DataPoint 2 I connected these stories with a system I observed on the Beech Skipper (BE-77) in which I took my primary training. To prime the engine, one pressed in on the key while cranking. This closes an extra set of contacts in the key switch opening a solenoid valve that routes fuel from the downstream side of the boost pump to the primer lines. This made sure that the cranking motor was turning as raw fuel was fed to the engine. This improves vaporization efficiency because the engine is ingesting air while fuel is flowing. DataPoint 3 The so called fuel injected engines found on airplanes is very rudimentary when compared with modern EFI systems on automobiles but is technically elegant with respect to complexity. They simply deliver a calibrated pressure flow of fuel to a nozzle located just outside the intake valve of each cylinder. DataPoint 4 I've noted that some engines don't prime all cylinders, to make the backup delivery system work, you'd want to have fuel delivered to every cylinder. Other primers dump fuel into the carburetor which is fine. Proposal Borrowing from the electrically controlled primer system found on the BE-77 and perhaps other airplanes, how about putting a valve in the primer line that allows calibration of primer fuel flow to some rate commensurate with 60-70% power. A needle valve would work. Arrange to supply power to the boost pump and open the solenoid valve by the proper placement of switches in the cockpit. If one wanted to take redundancy to a logical limit, I'd put a separate finger strainer in a tank and supply the primer system with it's own electric pump. Now, should one find himself airborne with no way to get fuel to the engine through the normal delivery path, you would shut off the normal delivery system (valves closed, pump off, mixture to idle cutoff) and flip the primer switch on. The throttle then becomes a mixture control. Adjust throttle for best running engine. The reasoning here is that a simple enhancement to a stock primer system would provide an on-purpose backup to the normal fuel delivery system. Several years after I first proposed this system, a Long Ez driver e-mailed me to say that his airplane suffered a frozen fuel selector valve and the handle broke off with the valve in a position that wouldn't allow delivery of useful fuel. The calibrated primer back system did the job and he continued flight for over 30 minutes to an uneventful landing at an airport. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 16, 2001
Subject: Re: Joining a bunch of wires
Thanks for the reply Bob, I wound up using your "mini Bus" tecnique with the 25 pin d-sub connecter, it worked great. Reading your book and all your Email posts has been a tremendous help in completing the electrical portion of this ship, I dont see how I could have done this and flown with confidence without you. Kevin Shannon Bremerton, WA RV-9A O-320 Catto Prop BIG Lectric Bob fan > Same problem here guys, Im installing my uMonitor, there are 3 different > >areas where several wires have to wind up in one little molex pin. I bought > 2 > >of those terminal blocks from Radio Shack, they are really heavy, > especially > >when you add 30 ring terminals. I am thinking about just soldering them all > > >together on to one wire, anyone else done this? > >Kevin -9A > >Im a E-lectrikian now unkle Jed > > Long strips of screw terminals should be the > last choice of wire joining solutions. I won't > say they're not used in some situations but > we work really hard to minimize their use. When > they are necessary, use a thread locker on the > screws. > > See: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Staters
Date: Mar 16, 2001
Bob, Can you explain this statement further? > What could be nicer than a short fused jumper between the alternator > b-lead and the starter power terminal? The increased amount of always > hot wire is trivial. Having said that, this makes it MUCH more difficult > if not impossible to include alternator loadmeter shunts and/or > hall effect sensors in the re-located b-lead feed. As per my email last night, I have wired my plane like this.... Battery plus to master via a 4" piece of #2 wire From the master relay to the alternator via #2 wire From alternator to 80 amp fuse via 6" piece of #2 Fuse bolted to the shunt (the shunt is bolted under the engine in front) From shunt to starter via a 6" piece of #2 wire From starter to battery negative via #2 wire. The S-704 relay is used to control the solenoid on the starter. Did I do something wrong? Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt(at)mondenet.com>
Subject: Re: 912/914 Alternator Failure?
Date: Mar 16, 2001
Hi Bob Thanks for the prompt reply. I'll be installing a capacitor asap. Carl -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Date: March 15, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 912/914 Alternator Failure? > >> Bob, >> Enjoy reading your list. >> I have a Rotax 912 in a CH-701 and have had no problems with the >> electrical system in 200 hrs. I recently turned the battery master off >> while the engine was idling at 2000 RPM and found-out I lost all >> electrical power. My question is why does the the alternartor kick-off >> without the battery in the circuit? Does it need battery power to >> produce? Was the RPM too low? >> Carl >> >> > > The last time I checked, the rectifier/regulator needs a > battery to come on line initially but it should continue > to deliver with the battery off line IF you have installed > the recommended filter capacitor. This capacitor behaves > like a low-capacity battery. It stores a substantial amount > of energy to fill in between switching cycles internal to > the regulator and keep it from falling out of bed. > > If your alternator shuts down when the battery is > removed, your capacitor may be (1) too small in value, > 20,000 uFd minimum, bigger is better (2) failed or > (3) perhaps not installed. > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2001
Subject: Fw: Cable Selection / Wiring Method
From: ulf3(at)juno.com
I wrote this on 3/11/01 and have had no reply so am sending again.... Bob, Despite reading (& rereading) your AeroElectric Connection, and looking at your web site I'm unsure as to the best cabling choice to install a 4-person intercom in an all metal A/C. I'm installing an RST-Engineering product (RST-565) and in his manual he (Jim Weir) suggests that RG-174 is fine for connecting the mike audio. I plan on using the insulating washers you sell (P/N S825-1). If I understand correctly these washers will insulate the jacks from the airframe, then the "ground (shell)" connection wire should be run all the way to the forest of tabs on the firewall. This would, in effect, require two conductors for phone jacks (+ and -) and three conductors for mike jacks (audio +, audio -, and mike key). Am I on the right track? Does the cabling from each phones jack have to be run back to the panel? or can the audio portion be daisy-chained from jack to jack to minimize cabling? What cable do you suggest be used for each type of jack? Thanks for your advice (which I value as always) Ulrich La Fosse CH801 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com>
Subject: Fw: Cable Selection / Wiring Method
Date: Mar 16, 2001
Some thoughts inserted. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (systems install) Vienna, VA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of ulf3(at)juno.com Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 9:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Cable Selection / Wiring Method I wrote this on 3/11/01 and have had no reply so am sending again.... Bob, Despite reading (& rereading) your AeroElectric Connection, and looking at your web site I'm unsure as to the best cabling choice to install a 4-person intercom in an all metal A/C. I'm installing an RST-Engineering product (RST-565) and in his manual he (Jim Weir) suggests that RG-174 is fine for connecting the mike audio. I plan on using the insulating washers you sell (P/N S825-1). If I understand correctly these washers will insulate the jacks from the airframe, then the "ground (shell)" connection wire should be run all the way to the forest of tabs on the firewall. This would, in effect, require two conductors for phone jacks (+ and -) and three conductors for mike jacks (audio +, audio -, and mike key). ***** 3 conductors and a shield; audio, mic, PPT, ground (shield). The RST is similar to most systems, the audio (-), mike (-) and PPT (-) are all at ground potential in the RST. Your point of not allowing the shield to ground at the jacks to prevent ground loops is correct. ***** Am I on the right track? Does the cabling from each phones jack have to be run back to the panel? or can the audio portion be daisy-chained from jack to jack to minimize cabling? **** If memory serves me correct on the RST, you can use a common line for both phones. You must use a separate line for each mike connection ***** What cable do you suggest be used for each type of jack? **** Three conductor, shielded. One line for each pair of mic/phone jacks. **** Thanks for your advice (which I value as always) Ulrich La Fosse CH801 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2001
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: GPS antenna under cowl
I've flown with two guys who put their GPS antennas under the cowl on an aluminum mounting bracket as high as they could get it. We didn't specifically talk about reception, but both worked and neither complained. It's where I plan to put mine. Ed Holyoke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: crimp tool > > > > >bob > >thanks for the info on the fix for the rct-3. i can handle the fix myself. > > > >now another question. > >what are your thoughts on putting a gps antenna under the fiberglass engine > >cowl on an rv-6? > >thanks > >dave pierson > > > I think it's been tried. I'm not sure how well it worked > out. I recall some discussions about this some years ago. > If you have an active antenna (amplifier built in) there > are concerns for heat soaking after engine shut-down. > Also, while fiberglas and epoxy is a pretty good insulator, > it DOES offer some attentuation to the 1500 MHz GPS signal > which is already pretty weak. > > Give it a try. If it works okay, lets write up a little > article about it and let the rest of the world know > the results. We'd probably want to do some comparative > testing. Does your GPS have a signal strength display > function? > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: GPS antenna under cowl
> >I've flown with two guys who put their GPS antennas under the cowl on an >aluminum mounting bracket as high as they could get it. We didn't >specifically talk about reception, but both worked and neither complained. >It's where I plan to put mine. >Ed Holyoke Let me know how it works for you. . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 912/914 Alternator Failure?
> >Hi Bob >Thanks for the prompt reply. I'll be installing a capacitor asap. >Carl Okay. If you can't find one locally, I think B&C has them. 1-316-283-8000 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: DRogers(at)maf.org (Dan Rogers)
Subject: Re: Fuel system failure . . .
Proposal Borrowing from the electrically controlled primer system found on the BE-77 and perhaps other airplanes, how about putting a valve in the primer line that allows calibration of primer fuel flow to some rate commensurate with 60-70% power. A needle valve would work. Arrange to supply power to the boost pump and open the solenoid valve by the proper placement of switches in the cockpit. If one wanted to take redundancy to a logical limit, I'd put a separate finger strainer in a tank and supply the primer system with it's own electric pump. Now, should one find himself airborne with no way to get fuel to the engine through the normal delivery path, you would shut off the normal delivery system (valves closed, pump off, mixture to idle cutoff) and flip the primer switch on. The throttle then becomes a mixture control. Adjust throttle for best running engine. The reasoning here is that a simple enhancement to a stock primer system would provide an on-purpose backup to the normal fuel delivery system. Several years after I first proposed this system, a Long Ez driver e-mailed me to say that his airplane suffered a frozen fuel selector valve and the handle broke off with the valve in a position that wouldn't allow delivery of useful fuel. The calibrated primer back system did the job and he continued flight for over 30 minutes to an uneventful landing at an airport. Bob . . . In the early 1950s a missionary pilot in eastern Ecuador installed a very rudimentary 'emergency fuel system' in his Piper Cruiser (I think). It was gravity feed from the high wing tank, through a control on the panel to a single nozzle just before the throttle butterfly. Over subsequent years, his employer, Mission Aviation Fellowship continued to develop the system even to the point of having it STCed for Cessna 185 and 206 and T206. The 185 version was still gravity feed but the 206 versions needed a Dukes pump because their throttle butterfly is at the top of the engine. At one point a six point system was considered but rejected because of increased complexity and the single point worked ok. The system involved a needle valve controled from the panel and could run the engine at full power. Over the years there were a number of 'saves' but there were also a number of accidents/incidents that were caused in training or incorrect use of the system. MAF did a lot of training of their pilots and still it was not always well understood. About 5 years ago it was decided that the benefits did not outweigh the problems so the systems were all removed. I have flown almost 4000 hours for MAF and have never experienced a need to use the EFS system although I have used it many times in training and practice. It is an interesting experience to be at climb power and pull the mixture and then pull the EFS and have the engine running again in a few seconds with the mixture in ICO! MAF is probably the largest operator of single engine piston Cessnas in the world. There was never any consideration given to selling the system and the systems always had to be removed from planes being sold. Liability! For what its worth! Dan Rogers ----------------------------------------------- --- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. N. Cameron" <toucan@the-i.net>
Subject: Electronic compasses
Date: Mar 17, 2001
Dear Bob, Although you've mentioned using electronic compasses in airplanes in your writings, I have yet to find a suitable one for a panel or dash-top mount. Do you have info you could pass along? Jim Cameron, Lancair ES builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul McAllister" <pma(at)obtero.net>
Subject: How bright is right ?
Date: Mar 17, 2001
Hi all, I am building a Europa which I will be using the Rotax 912S as the power plant. As you are all aware the alternator in the 912 is really only good for 17 amps at best. I am wondering if there is a specification for how bright the position lights should be. I read in the list to expect a draw of 2 amps per bulb and to expect a total draw of 6 to 7 amps. Do I have other safe alternatives. For example, can I get sufficient light out of super bright LED's for a lower total current draw, or can I use lower wattage bulbs and still satisfy the FAA inspector (and myself) that it is safe. I'd appreciate anyone's views and experience on this topic. Thanks, Paul McAllister Builder 363 - http://pma.obtero.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Wire Selection and Connection Technques
> >I wrote this on 3/11/01 and have had no reply so am sending again.... > > >Bob, > >Despite reading (& rereading) your AeroElectric Connection, and looking >at >your web site I'm unsure as to the best cabling choice to install a >4-person intercom in an all metal A/C. > >I'm installing an RST-Engineering product (RST-565) and in his manual he >(Jim Weir) suggests that RG-174 is fine for connecting the mike audio. >I plan on using the insulating washers you sell (P/N S825-1). If I understand >correctly these washers will insulate the jacks from the airframe, >then the "ground (shell)" connection wire should be >run all the way to the forest of tabs on the firewall. No, avionics grounds are signal grounds. You wire according to the installation manual diagrams and they will tell you were to ground signals and shields. > This would, in >effect, require two conductors >for phone jacks (+ and -) and three conductors for mike jacks (audio +, >audio -, and mike key). See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wire/wire.html#S906-1-22 The single conductor shielded wire is used on headset jacks. The center conductor carries headset audio out, the shield carries signal ground (shell connection on headset plug) back to the audio system. The 3-conductor wire is useful for microphone jacks. The installation drawings for the your system should have specific suggestions for how you wire them up. A good example of headset and microphone jack wiring can be seen in the installation drawings I did for the VHF transceiver we sell. Download http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf You can see how the diagrams are quite specific as to the utilization of shields. >Does the cabling from each phones jack have to be run back to the panel? >or can the audio portion >be daisy-chained from jack to jack to minimize cabling? You may daisy chain and the drawings above show just that. >What cable do you suggest be used for each type of jack? > >Thanks for your advice (which I value as always) > > >Ulrich La Fosse >CH801 My pleasure sir! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net (Chris Brooks)
Date: Mar 17, 2001
Subject: Copper Tape Antennae
I'm looking for some advice on installing a copper foil tape com antennae in the gear leg fairing of an RV6. I have ordered 2 kits to try to get an idea of how to do this. One from Vans aircraft is designed to be used on the windscreen, and says to solder 23" of antennae tape to a BNC connector and run it up the windscreen. The other from Aircraft Spruce was designed to be installed on a Quickie. It includes 4 Toroids to be bonded over the RG-58 cable and says to cut the tape to 21.5" elements. There is about a 1.5" gap between the fiberglass gear leg fairings and the bottom of the aluminum fuselage to be covered by fiberglass intersection fairing. My current thinking is to bring the RG-58 thru a snap bushing in the fuselage, to the gear leg fairing. Separate a couple inches of the shielding braid from the center conductor. Install the 4 Toroids. Cut the center conductor off and solder it to 22" of antennae tape. Crimp a ring terminal to the end of the shielding braid, and run it back up to the bottom of the fuselage and secure with a screw. Will this work? is 22" a good dimension? do I need the Toroids, The Quickie installation uses 2 elements for lack of a ground plane? My gear leg fairing were made by Team Rocket and are of wider chord than the one offered by Vans. Thanks Chris Brooks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 18, 2001
From: Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Copper Tape Antennae
Chris Brooks wrote: > I'm looking for some advice on installing a copper foil tape com > antennae in the gear leg fairing of an RV6. I considered this and was told by People Who Know About Such Things on the rec.aviation.homebuilt newsgroup that the metal gear leg would adversely affect the antenna to the extent that it wouldn't work effectively. Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Postion/nav/strobe lights
>They will go out tomorrow or Monday at the latest. We have not yet needed >any wiring tools as we are still in sheet metal. I have not worked at all >with the small pin connector hands on. I am planning to use Fastons >wherever reasonable. Glad to note you approve. >I do have one question based on my industrial power and control days. We >used a product called NOXIDE which is a paste used between connectors >(lugs) and aluminum bus. Unplated surfaces were abraded and immediately >the paste applied and the bolted joint made up. The idea was to inhibit >corrosion and oxidation at the joint. Belleville washers were also used. >I will be makng some ground lug connections to the aluminum structure. Do >you recommend either a joint paste or Belleville washers or will a simple >bolted joint provide long term reliability? I've never seen the Bellville washers used in airplanes but intuitively, they seem like a reasonable product to use. By-in-large, all of your hardware suited to aviation connections will be tin plated. This reduces electrolytic potentials between copper and aluminum. The classic approach is to buff the aluminum, wipe the tin plate clean and then bolt up with enough force to actually put a little crush on the copper terminal. I have to belive that NoOx can't hurt and it may be beneficial in these cases. I think a Bellville washer would probably be totally used up by the time you put a crush on the copper so its only purpose would be to help keep tension on a joint that is already loosened up. I.e. in the process of Failing. So I guess my approach would be to leave the washer out and go ahead with the NoOx. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Copper Tape Antennae
> I'm looking for some advice on installing a copper foil tape com >antennae in the gear leg fairing of an RV6. I have ordered 2 kits to try >to get an idea of how to do this. One from Vans aircraft is designed to >be used on the windscreen, and says to solder 23" of antennae tape to a >BNC connector and run it up the windscreen. The other from Aircraft >Spruce was designed to be installed on a Quickie. It includes 4 Toroids >to be bonded over the RG-58 cable and says to cut the tape to 21.5" >elements. > There is about a 1.5" gap between the fiberglass gear leg fairings >and the bottom of the aluminum fuselage to be covered by fiberglass >intersection fairing. My current thinking is to bring the RG-58 thru a >snap bushing in the fuselage, to the gear leg fairing. Separate a couple >inches of the shielding braid from the center conductor. Install the 4 >Toroids. Cut the center conductor off and solder it to 22" of antennae >tape. Crimp a ring terminal to the end of the shielding braid, and run >it back up to the bottom of the fuselage and secure with a screw. Will >this work? is 22" a good dimension? do I need the Toroids, The Quickie >installation uses 2 elements for lack of a ground plane? My gear leg >fairing were made by Team Rocket and are of wider chord than the one >offered by Vans. You might visit Jim Weir's site www.rst-engr.com for information on copper tape antennas. I wonder about the effect of the large mass of metal (wheel and brake) at the end of the gear. Antennas are sensitive to conductive materials (metal, carbon fiber, etc.) and the closer to the tip of the antenna these materials are, the more distorted the radiation from the antenna. The belly of the fuselage should be plenty of "ground plane". Bob Steward Birmingham, AL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Copper Tape Antennae
Date: Mar 17, 2001
I have a feeling that you are too close to the metal rods for the landing gear. It will be highly directive IF it works at all. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor www.bellanca-championclub.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Brooks" <BrooksRV6(at)webtv.net> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper Tape Antennae Brooks) > > I'm looking for some advice on installing a copper foil tape com > antennae in the gear leg fairing of an RV6. I have ordered 2 kits to try > to get an idea of how to do this. One from Vans aircraft is designed to > be used on the windscreen, and says to solder 23" of antennae tape to a > BNC connector and run it up the windscreen. The other from Aircraft > Spruce was designed to be installed on a Quickie. It includes 4 Toroids > to be bonded over the RG-58 cable and says to cut the tape to 21.5" > elements. > There is about a 1.5" gap between the fiberglass gear leg fairings > and the bottom of the aluminum fuselage to be covered by fiberglass > intersection fairing. My current thinking is to bring the RG-58 thru a > snap bushing in the fuselage, to the gear leg fairing. Separate a couple > inches of the shielding braid from the center conductor. Install the 4 > Toroids. Cut the center conductor off and solder it to 22" of antennae > tape. Crimp a ring terminal to the end of the shielding braid, and run > it back up to the bottom of the fuselage and secure with a screw. Will > this work? is 22" a good dimension? do I need the Toroids, The Quickie > installation uses 2 elements for lack of a ground plane? My gear leg > fairing were made by Team Rocket and are of wider chord than the one > offered by Vans. > Thanks Chris Brooks > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
> >Dear Bob, > > Although you've mentioned using electronic compasses in airplanes in >your writings, I have yet to find a suitable one for a panel or dash-top >mount. Do you have info you could pass along? > >Jim Cameron, Lancair ES builder I don't have any personal experience with the modern electronic compasses . . . something I need to do one of these days. There were some discussions on the Kitfox list a few months back wherein some folks have tried electronic compasses with mixed results. I'm sorry but I don't recall the details of those conversations. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
Bob, I found a Ritchie Electronic Compass. In the marine market, Ritchie has a reputation for quality and reliability. Major components are a display instrument mounted in the panel and a remote sensor and controller units that is about 5 by 5 by 5 inches and very very light weight. I put the sensor in the tail cone to avoid any interference. I have a 2.25 diameter instrument. Also a 3.25 instrument is available. After being calibrated, which is accomplished by grounding a pin and then rotating the plane 720 degrees, accuracy is + or - 1/2 degree. It cost only $147.00 and is available from West Marine. For a picture go to http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ the compass is in the left upper corner of the panel. As you can see, it would be nice if the vertical compass card was white lettering on black. My wife says the blue goes well with the Artificial Horizon instrument. For awhile Ritchie said they would produce a model with white lettering on a black background. My current understanding is that they decided not to do this. Quite a few builders saw this on my web page and bought a unit. Some of them are flying now. I remember at least one report. Check the archive. While you are at this web site, check out the WigWag Solid State Controller. Bob > > > > > >Dear Bob, > > > > Although you've mentioned using electronic compasses in airplanes in > >your writings, I have yet to find a suitable one for a panel or dash-top > >mount. Do you have info you could pass along? > > > >Jim Cameron, Lancair ES builder > > > I don't have any personal experience with the modern > electronic compasses . . . something I need to do one of > these days. There were some discussions on the Kitfox > list a few months back wherein some folks have tried > electronic compasses with mixed results. I'm sorry but > I don't recall the details of those conversations. > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com Bob Haan http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ bhaan(at)easystreet.com Portland, OR RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Copper Tape Antennae
> > I'm looking for some advice on installing a copper foil tape com >antennae in the gear leg fairing of an RV6. I have ordered 2 kits to try >to get an idea of how to do this. One from Vans aircraft is designed to >be used on the windscreen, and says to solder 23" of antennae tape to a >BNC connector and run it up the windscreen. The other from Aircraft >Spruce was designed to be installed on a Quickie. It includes 4 Toroids >to be bonded over the RG-58 cable and says to cut the tape to 21.5" >elements. > There is about a 1.5" gap between the fiberglass gear leg fairings >and the bottom of the aluminum fuselage to be covered by fiberglass >intersection fairing. My current thinking is to bring the RG-58 thru a >snap bushing in the fuselage, to the gear leg fairing. Separate a couple >inches of the shielding braid from the center conductor. Install the 4 >Toroids. Cut the center conductor off and solder it to 22" of antennae >tape. Crimp a ring terminal to the end of the shielding braid, and run >it back up to the bottom of the fuselage and secure with a screw. Will >this work? is 22" a good dimension? do I need the Toroids, The Quickie >installation uses 2 elements for lack of a ground plane? My gear leg >fairing were made by Team Rocket and are of wider chord than the one >offered by Vans. >Thanks Chris Brooks Putting an antenna that close to a parallel conductor that is NOT part of the antenna system will just about trash it totally. The rule-of-thumb for parallel conductor spacing for minimizing adverse effects is at least 1/2 wavelength which at VHF com frequencies is on the order of 40" If it were as much as 20" away, you'd probably get satisfactory performance. 1.5" is just too close. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Huft" <iflygood(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: exploding batteries
Date: Mar 18, 2001
Bob and Listers First Bob, I want to add my compliments to those you always receive from everyone. After my own 20+ years of electronic design, I can recognize sound advise when I see it, though I don't have the specific experience you do. Also, I am impressed with what is basically your philanthropy, your selfless giving of your time to all us builders. Now, a question for you and the list... I am considering using a lighter battery in my RV8, and putting it in the front baggage compartment, on the right side floor. I have people telling me I shouldn't do this because lead acid batteries can explode, blowing acid all over. I have heard of this happening in cars, when the jumper cables are hooked up backwards, but not otherwise. Can this happen in normal conditions - runaway charging system etc.? Are some battery types more prone to this? I know that ni-cads can experience thermal runaway, can lead acid types? Does it make any difference - thin plates, thick plates, gel, sealed etc.? What do you all think? Thank you, John 184JH res. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Subject: Re: exploding batteries
Date: Mar 18, 2001
> Bob and Listers > > First Bob, I want to add my compliments to those you always receive from > everyone. After my own 20+ years of electronic design, I can recognize sound > advise when I see it, though I don't have the specific experience you do. > Also, I am impressed with what is basically your philanthropy, your selfless > giving of your time to all us builders. > > Now, a question for you and the list... I am considering using a lighter > battery in my RV8, and putting it in the front baggage compartment, on the > right side floor. I have people telling me I shouldn't do this because lead > acid batteries can explode, blowing acid all over. I have heard of this > happening in cars, when the jumper cables are hooked up backwards, but not > otherwise. Can this happen in normal conditions - runaway charging system > etc.? > > Are some battery types more prone to this? I know that ni-cads can > experience thermal runaway, can lead acid types? Does it make any difference > - thin plates, thick plates, gel, sealed etc.? > > What do you all think? > > Thank you, John 184JH res. I'll let Bob comment on the explosive issues, but for several other overall installation benefits see my installation at... www.rv-8.com/Electrical.htm Randy Lervold RV-8, #80500, finishing details www.rv-8.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: Copper Tape Antennae
Date: Mar 18, 2001
Re: Copper tape antenna in the landing gear leg fairing. > I have a feeling that you are too close to the metal rods for the landing > gear. It will be highly directive IF it works at all. > I've been on the RV-List for a couple of years and I have seen several posts from people who reported good results from Van's home made copper strip Com antenna in the gear leg fairing. Your results may vary. If I were going to try it, I would put an extra loop in the line so that the same line could reach a standard whip antenna on the belly. If the gear leg doesn't work then add the drag creating whip on the belly. Norman Hunger RV6A Delta BC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 18, 2001
From: Tom Hutchison <thutchis(at)umesd.k12.or.us>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/17/01
I have been looking for an inexpensive electronic compass also. My first find was the Precision Navigation products ( http://www.pnicorp.com/index3.html ). But adapting their OEM modules involves more work (and brains) than I have. I did recently find a Raytheon Marine product, the ST 40 compass with remote fluxgate transducer ( http://www.autohelm.com/recreational/products/index/instruments/index.html ). This looks very nice but I have no pricing on it. My ultimate design would be about 1.5" x 3" backlit display. Digital magnetic heading readout accurate to 5 degrees (or less). Accurate up to a 45 degree bank and pitch. Also displays current digital time (12 or 24 hour) and OAT in Fahrenheit or Celsius. Icing on the cake (no pun intended) would be a count-down timer. I would like to mount this on the front of my overhead console very similar to my Chevrolet Blazer's overhead console. This would give the folks in the back something cool to look at and would serve as a backup of sorts to a whiskey compass on the glare shield. Any of you electron heads out there want to design it? Tom Hutchison www.express-builder.com > From: "J. N. Cameron" <toucan@the-i.net> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic compasses > > Although you've mentioned using electronic compasses in airplanes in > your writings, I have yet to find a suitable one for a panel or dash-top > mount. Do you have info you could pass along? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 18, 2001
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/17/01
3/18/01 Hello Bob, Many thanks for your informative reply below. Maybe the term "ground" has become too commonly used and confusing to us neophytes. Aren't there really four different "grounds" in use? 1) The common garden variety "ground" which forms the return circuit for an electrically driven device such as an airframe fuel pump. 2) The "signal ground" used in an avionics circuit as you describe below. 3) The "antenna ground" as used in a dipole antenna when one of the antenna elements is attached to, or formed by, the braided shield. 4) The "ground plane" for an antenna such as the reflective metal required around the base of a airplane's transponder antenna. A metal fuselage could provide "ground" for both 1) and 4) above. It is also interesting to note that the wiring diagram for the Menzimer Aircraft Components (MAC) G1 pilot's stick grip appears to use the same ground for both avionics signal ground (push to talk) and as a return circuit for the trim motors. I would appreciate your comments. OC Baker In a message dated 03/18/2001 2:55:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Audio Wire Selection and Connection Technques > >I wrote this on 3/11/01 and have had no reply so am sending again.... > > >Bob, > >Despite reading (& rereading) your AeroElectric Connection, and looking >at >your web site I'm unsure as to the best cabling choice to install a >4-person intercom in an all metal A/C. > >I'm installing an RST-Engineering product (RST-565) and in his manual he >(Jim Weir) suggests that RG-174 is fine for connecting the mike audio. >I plan on using the insulating washers you sell (P/N S825-1). If I understand >correctly these washers will insulate the jacks from the airframe, >then the "ground (shell)" connection wire should be >run all the way to the forest of tabs on the firewall. No, avionics grounds are signal grounds. You wire according to the installation manual diagrams and they will tell you were to ground signals and shields. > This would, in >effect, require two conductors >for phone jacks (+ and -) and three conductors for mike jacks (audio +, >audio -, and mike key). See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wire/wire.html#S906-1-22 The single conductor shielded wire is used on headset jacks. The center conductor carries headset audio out, the shield carries signal ground (shell connection on headset plug) back to the audio system. The 3-conductor wire is useful for microphone jacks. The installation drawings for the your system should have specific suggestions for how you wire them up. A good example of headset and microphone jack wiring can be seen in the installation drawings I did for the VHF transceiver we sell. Download http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf You can see how the diagrams are quite specific as to the utilization of shields. >Does the cabling from each phones jack have to be run back to the panel? >or can the audio portion >be daisy-chained from jack to jack to minimize cabling? You may daisy chain and the drawings above show just that. >What cable do you suggest be used for each type of jack? > >Thanks for your advice (which I value as always) > > >Ulrich La Fosse >CH801 My pleasure sir! Bob . . . >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Wire Selection and Connection Technques
Date: Mar 18, 2001
I can't seem to view these two pdf files: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf Other pdf files on the Aeroelectric site work okay. Has anyone else have this problem or do I need to update my Acrobat reader? Chris Heitman RV-9A Fuselage http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html -----Original Message----- The 3-conductor wire is useful for microphone jacks. The installation drawings for the your system should have specific suggestions for how you wire them up. A good example of headset and microphone jack wiring can be seen in the installation drawings I did for the VHF transceiver we sell. Download http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf You can see how the diagrams are quite specific as to the utilization of shields. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W4PPN(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 18, 2001
Subject: Re: Audio Wire Selection and Connection Technques
In a message dated 03/18/2001 9:46:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, cjh(at)execpc.com writes: > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf > Chris: I just pulled up the above file and it worked fine. It is a wiring diagram for headphones, microphones and PTT switches for the Microair Transceiver. Howard Cochran RV-8 80188 Pulling wire ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 18, 2001
From: Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag Flasher
Bob, Is the AEC 9020-1 flasher unit that is shown in option 2 at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/aec_ww.pdf available or should I go with the Galls Flasher option? Regards, Tom Velvick Peoria, AZ wiring rv-6a ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Verwey" <skymaster(at)icon.co.za>
Subject: exploding batteries
Date: Mar 19, 2001
Iv'e flown a normal automative type lead-acid in my homebuilt Safari (IO470) it was a 26 AH for about 200 hrs with no problem at all. If you look at the technology today, I am happy flying behind this type of battery! Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Huft Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 4:09 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: exploding batteries Bob and Listers First Bob, I want to add my compliments to those you always receive from everyone. After my own 20+ years of electronic design, I can recognize sound advise when I see it, though I don't have the specific experience you do. Also, I am impressed with what is basically your philanthropy, your selfless giving of your time to all us builders. Now, a question for you and the list... I am considering using a lighter battery in my RV8, and putting it in the front baggage compartment, on the right side floor. I have people telling me I shouldn't do this because lead acid batteries can explode, blowing acid all over. I have heard of this happening in cars, when the jumper cables are hooked up backwards, but not otherwise. Can this happen in normal conditions - runaway charging system etc.? Are some battery types more prone to this? I know that ni-cads can experience thermal runaway, can lead acid types? Does it make any difference - thin plates, thick plates, gel, sealed etc.? What do you all think? Thank you, John 184JH res. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: What flavor of "ground" would you like?
> >3/18/01 > >Hello Bob, Many thanks for your informative reply below. > >Maybe the term "ground" has become too commonly used and confusing to us >neophytes. Aren't there really four different "grounds" in use? > >1) The common garden variety "ground" which forms the return circuit for an >electrically driven device such as an airframe fuel pump. > >2) The "signal ground" used in an avionics circuit as you describe below. > >3) The "antenna ground" as used in a dipole antenna when one of the antenna >elements is attached to, or formed by, the braided shield. > >4) The "ground plane" for an antenna such as the reflective metal required >around the base of a airplane's transponder antenna. > >A metal fuselage could provide "ground" for both 1) and 4) above. > >It is also interesting to note that the wiring diagram for the Menzimer >Aircraft Components (MAC) G1 pilot's stick grip appears to use the same >ground for both avionics signal ground (push to talk) and as a return circuit >for the trim motors. > >I would appreciate your comments. > >OC Baker You are correct that "grounds" come in several flavors . . . we've described these at some length in the 'Connection's chapter on GROUNDING. I presume your talking about one of our wiring diagrams. The audio and avionics would share POWER grounds on the forest-of-fast-on-tabs on the firewall. Microphone and headset grounds along with any shielding of those wires are generally returned to a pin in a connector of the black boxes . . . like I showed in the sample diagrams. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Wire Selection and Connection
Technques > >I can't seem to view these two pdf files: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf >Other pdf files on the Aeroelectric site work okay. Has anyone else have >this problem or do I need to update my Acrobat reader? Try right-clicking the links and then tell your e-mail program to save to disk instead of opening the files directly. After you've put them on your hard drive, see if Acrobat will open them properly. Ya gotta LOVE windoz . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: exploding batteries
> >Bob and Listers > >First Bob, I want to add my compliments to those you always receive from >everyone. After my own 20+ years of electronic design, I can recognize sound >advise when I see it, though I don't have the specific experience you do. >Also, I am impressed with what is basically your philanthropy, your selfless >giving of your time to all us builders. > >Now, a question for you and the list... I am considering using a lighter >battery in my RV8, and putting it in the front baggage compartment, on the >right side floor. I have people telling me I shouldn't do this because lead >acid batteries can explode, blowing acid all over. I have heard of this >happening in cars, when the jumper cables are hooked up backwards, but not >otherwise. Can this happen in normal conditions - runaway charging system >etc.? > >Are some battery types more prone to this? I know that ni-cads can >experience thermal runaway, can lead acid types? Does it make any difference >- thin plates, thick plates, gel, sealed etc.? > >What do you all think? > >Thank you, John 184JH res. John, Start with an article I did for Aviation Consumer 6 years ago which you can find at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf Then know that battery explosions are extremely rare. The modern RG battery has so little enclosed vapor space that an internally generated explosion would result in a meager Pssssttttt from the battery vent. Now, you can fabricate an excellent battery fueled bomb in your airplane by enclosing a battery in a tight box and putting other electrical goodies inside with it. At least one Glasair owner I know of lived to tell the tail of loud noises and evil smells from the tailcone of his airplane. An RG battery out in the open is not a dragon to be reckoned with. Install an RG battery any where you like. Right side up, on end or laying down. It doesn't matter. Put it in a tray and hold it down with some webbing and velcro. Two 1" x 6" velcro patches are good for holding a 17 a.h. battery down under 15+ g's of loading. You'll need a 17 a.h. recombinant gas battery which can be found on the following links. These batteries can be purchased from a variety of battery specialty shops. We have some little convenience store sized Battery Patrols around Wichita that handle these batteries for $60-70 each. Powersonic: PS-12180 http://www.power-sonic.com/12180.html Hawker: Check out the first 6 batteries on this page . . . http://www.hepi.com/products/genesis/genprod.htm Panasonic: particularly the LCRD1271P http://www.panasonic.com/industrial_oem/battery/battery_oem/images/pdf/lc-rd1217p.pdf http://www.panasonic.com/industrial_oem/battery/battery_oem/chem/seal/seal.htm Yuasa-Exide: Check out the NP18-12B at this site . . . http://www.yuasa-exide.com/np-prod.html Handle these like any other lead-acid battery. Bus volts no less than 13.8 - 14.2 is about ideal - no more than 14.6 Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
Check out these products. There's a dealer near here. I'll drop by and see if they have any of these products in stock so I can look over the hardware and data. http://www.ritchienavigation.com/magtroni1.htm http://www.ritchienavigation.com/mseries.htm Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How bright is right ?
> >Hi all, > >I am building a Europa which I will be using the Rotax 912S as the power >plant. As you are all aware the alternator in the 912 is really only good >for 17 amps at best. > >I am wondering if there is a specification for how bright the position >lights should be. I read in the list to expect a draw of 2 amps per bulb >and to expect a total draw of 6 to 7 amps. Yes, there ARE specifications for external lighting components. And the FAA has seen fit to inflict a requirement of "approved" exterior lighting . . .which to most folks means go buy Grimes or Whelen. However, Whelen has ground vehicle stobes with as much or MORE light output as the aviation based stuff. Check out: http://www.whelen.com/nondynmc/auto.htm http://www.strobesnmore.com/ http://www.copcars.com/index.htm If it were my airplane, I'd get a good photgrapher's light meter and show that what ever light I was proposing to use had the same or more light output than the lights on say a brand new C-172. Color might be a hassle if the local inspector is really sharp. The specifications for "aviation red and green" are pretty tight . . . >Do I have other safe alternatives. For example, can I get sufficient light >out of super bright LED's for a lower total current draw, or can I use >lower wattage bulbs and still satisfy the FAA inspector (and myself) that it >is safe. . . . .but give it a try. Let's write up any successful attempts at modernization and/or release from the shackles of arbitrary regulation. Please don't use the word "safe" . . . there's no such thing as a safe airplane. They're dangerous as hell. However, this word is used frequently to hammer folks into submission because we are socially obligated to genuflect at the altar of safety. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
Bob, Hope you get to see the Ritchie model M2. Your analysis would be very valued. If you see an M2, please check the cable connector that plugs into the back or the Compass Card Display that would be mounted in the panel. I tried a number of times both by email and by phone to get the information needed to buy another connector or buy the pins or get the information needed to get the extraction tool and instructions needed to remove the pins. Looking closely at the connector, the only lettering on the plastic body was "AMP". I could not find an AMP part number anywhere on the connector. I wanted to get the extra set of pins or extra connector or the extractor tool and instructions regarding how to remove the pins because I wanted to remove the connector. The remote sensor unit is mounted in the tail cone where there is no interference and to install the cable (about 20 feet supplied) it needed to pass through several ribs. To do this I wanted to remove the connector so that the ;3/16 cable could be threaded through the plastic bushings in the ribs. I ended up cutting and splicing the cable which was not the solution I would have preferred. I did not consider removing the cable from the remote sensor end because it was soldered to connections in the remote sensor and looked very difficult to do without damaging the unit. Bob > > > >Check out these products. There's a dealer near >here. I'll drop by and see if they have any of these >products in stock so I can look over the hardware >and data. > > >http://www.ritchienavigation.com/magtroni1.htm > >http://www.ritchienavigation.com/mseries.htm > > >Bob . . . > > Bob Haan 14270 SW Koven Court TIgard, OR 97224 Home 503-579-2729 Mobile 503-720-1132 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Staters
Date: Mar 19, 2001
Bob, I didn't see a reply to this.... Sent 3/16/01 Bob, Can you explain this statement further? > What could be nicer than a short fused jumper between the alternator > b-lead and the starter power terminal? The increased amount of always > hot wire is trivial. Having said that, this makes it MUCH more difficult > if not impossible to include alternator loadmeter shunts and/or > hall effect sensors in the re-located b-lead feed. As per my email last night, I have wired my plane like this.... Battery plus to master via a 4" piece of #2 wire From the master relay to the alternator via #2 wire From alternator to 80 amp fuse via 6" piece of #2 Fuse bolted to the shunt (the shunt is bolted under the engine in front) From shunt to starter via a 6" piece of #2 wire From starter to battery negative via #2 wire. The S-704 relay is used to control the solenoid on the starter. Did I do something wrong? Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Staters
> >Bob, > >I didn't see a reply to this.... I hadn't gotten around to it yet. >As per my email last night, I have wired my plane like this.... > >Battery plus to master via a 4" piece of #2 wire First, it sounds like your battery is up front and given the relatively short lengths of wire you could have gotten by with 4AWG . . . 2AWG is certainly okay, but a little harder to work with, especially in short lengths. >>From the master relay to the alternator via #2 wire I got lost here. Normally, we'd take the next wire to the hot side of the starter contactor . . . in your case, the contactor is right on the starter so I think this wire is in the wrong place. >>From alternator to 80 amp fuse via 6" piece of #2 >Fuse bolted to the shunt (the shunt is bolted under the engine in front) >>From shunt to starter via a 6" piece of #2 wire >>From starter to battery negative via #2 wire. Wired as you describe, all of the starter current will flow through the shunt . . . maybe smoke it. You need to move the second wire segment from alternator to starter contactor's hot terminal. >The S-704 relay is used to control the solenoid on the starter. Okay. >Did I do something wrong? I think so. >Ross Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: Bill Hollifield <billhollifield(at)iname.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Wire Selection and Connection
Technques I had the same problem. But the solution seems to be: wait. I have acrobat 4 and a fast DSL connection. My explorer browser window says "DONE" at the bottom, and the screen is blank. Nevertheless, switching from that window to others is "sluggish" like it is still working,and after several minutes the diagrams (both of them) will appear. Can't explain it but there you are - give it a try. Bill H. > >I can't seem to view these two pdf files: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf >Other pdf files on the Aeroelectric site work okay. Has anyone else have >this problem or do I need to update my Acrobat reader? > >Chris Heitman >RV-9A Fuselage >http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html > >-----Original Message----- > > The 3-conductor wire is useful for microphone jacks. > The installation drawings for the your system should > have specific suggestions for how you wire them up. > A good example of headset and microphone jack wiring > can be seen in the installation drawings I did for the > VHF transceiver we sell. Download > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf > and > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf > You can see how the diagrams are quite specific as to > the utilization of shields. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
> >Bob, > >Hope you get to see the Ritchie model M2. Your analysis would be very >valued. > >If you see an M2, please check the cable connector that plugs into the back >or the Compass Card Display that would be mounted in the panel. I tried a >number of times both by email and by phone to get the information needed to >buy another connector or buy the pins or get the information needed to >get the extraction tool and instructions needed to remove the >pins. Looking closely at the connector, the only lettering on the plastic >body was "AMP". I could not find an AMP part number anywhere on the connector. > >I wanted to get the extra set of pins or extra connector or the extractor >tool and instructions regarding how to remove the pins because I wanted to >remove the connector. The remote sensor unit is mounted in the tail cone >where there is no interference and to install the cable (about 20 feet >supplied) it needed to pass through several ribs. To do this I wanted to >remove the connector so that the ;3/16 cable could be threaded through >the plastic bushings in the ribs. I ended up cutting and splicing the cable >which was not the solution I would have preferred. Okay, cut the connector off of the cable leaving several inches of original wire assuming they are colored wires. The stubs left in place will show you how to rewire it. If they are not color coded, then use a magic marker to put stripes on ends of wire either side of the cut so you can match them back up. Send me the connector and I'll find out what parts are needed. It's probable that I have pins you need but I'll need to see the connector. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Wire Selection and ConnectionTechnques
Date: Mar 19, 2001
I have the same issue with PDFs and Internet Explorer. I have the following solutions that work for me. (1) Use Netscape 4.5. For some reason, it works while IE 5.0 doesn't. (2) Netscape doesn't work for other things, so -- in Internet Explorer -- right click (using right-side button on the mouse) on the link, click "Save Target As..." and save the PDF file locally. Then open the file from your local harddrive using the Acrobat viewer. I can't open ANY PDF files using Internet Explorer. I'm kind of surprised you can and that these are the only 2 that give you trouble. My ultimate solution is junk Windows and get Linux -- but there are software packages I absolutely need that only run under Windows. :-P Regards. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill > Hollifield > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 7:56 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Audio Wire Selection and > ConnectionTechnques > > > > > I had the same problem. But the solution seems to be: wait. > I have acrobat 4 and a fast DSL connection. My explorer > browser window says > "DONE" at the bottom, and the screen is blank. Nevertheless, > switching from > that window to others is "sluggish" like it is still > working,and after > several minutes the diagrams (both of them) will appear. > Can't explain it > but there you are - give it a try. > > Bill H. > > > > > >I can't seem to view these two pdf files: > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf > >Other pdf files on the Aeroelectric site work okay. Has > anyone else have > >this problem or do I need to update my Acrobat reader? > > > >Chris Heitman > >RV-9A Fuselage > >http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > The 3-conductor wire is useful for microphone jacks. > > The installation drawings for the your system should > > have specific suggestions for how you wire them up. > > A good example of headset and microphone jack wiring > > can be seen in the installation drawings I did for the > > VHF transceiver we sell. Download > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v1.pdf > > and > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/techbits/760v2.pdf > > You can see how the diagrams are quite specific as to > > the utilization of shields. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Staters
Date: Mar 19, 2001
Bob, Let me try again. I didn't describe my system correctly. Here it is again. I thought I had done it exactly like Z-14 with the addition of the shunt from Z-8. My shunt and fuse are bolted together and then bolted to the bottom of the engine up front. Battery plus to master via #2 wire From the master relay to the starter via #2 wire From starter to shunt via a 6" piece of #2 (the shunt is bolted under the engine in front) Shunt is bolted to 80 amp fuse From 80 amp fuse to alternator via a 6" piece of #2 wire I am using welding wire throughout. The S-704 relay is used to control the solenoid on the starter. Thanks, Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Starters....... Take
two
Date: Mar 19, 2001
Bob, Let me try again. I didn't describe my system correctly. Here it is again. I thought I had done it exactly like Z-14 with the addition of the shunt from Z-8. My shunt and fuse are bolted together and then bolted to the bottom of the engine up front. Battery plus to master via #2 wire From the master relay to the starter via #2 wire From starter to shunt via a 6" piece of #2 (the shunt is bolted under the engine in front) Shunt is bolted to 80 amp fuse From 80 amp fuse to alternator via a 6" piece of #2 wire I am using welding wire throughout. The S-704 relay is used to control the solenoid on the starter. Thanks, Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Component Locations
>I am utilizing the crowbar overvoltage module and relay that you show in >your schematic Z-7. Where is the best place to mount the module, relay, >and capacitor? Can these units be installed in the engine compartment, >or would they be better-off behind the inst. panel? they will live well any place you'd like to mount them. The capacitor should be on the firewall so that the alternator can feed power to the starter contactor through the shortest length of wire. >For the 16 awg fusible link, can the link be sleeved with the materials >from your fusible link kit? I bought one for the other 2 links, but it >states that i should contact you about other sizes. Yes, that link is on the firewall and out of the cabin. You sleeve it with the fiberglas-silicone sleeving. > I would think that >I could leave the wire unprotected since it will be mounted to a little >shelf on the firewall, with nothing else very close to it. What do you >think? You mean no sleeving? The sleeving is to protect other wires that might be bundled with it. If not tied into a bundle, then mount the relay next to the starter contactor. Bring 12AWG from rectifier/regulator to the relay. Use 16AWG jumper from relay to starter contactor. You can omit sleeving if the burning of 16AWG won't affect anything else. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dfmorrow(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 20, 2001
Subject: PDF files
Just a hint on PDF files. If you have the Interner Explorer security option "Enable Active X controls and plugins" turned off, you will not be able to see PDF files. When you click on a link to a PDF file you just get a blank screen with no error message. You can still right click on the link and choose "save as" to download the file. I usually just download PDF files since they tend to be slow and clunky things to look at online if you have a slow modem connection. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
Date: Mar 21, 2001
Is that feature considered by the FAA as a stabilized compass? Daniel Pelletier 601hds >From: Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electronic compasses >Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:40:53 -0800 > > >Bob, > >I found a Ritchie Electronic Compass. In the marine market, Ritchie has a >reputation for quality and reliability. > >Major components are a display instrument mounted in the panel and a >remote sensor and controller units that is about 5 by 5 by 5 inches and >very very light weight. I put the sensor in the tail cone to avoid any >interference. > >I have a 2.25 diameter instrument. Also a 3.25 instrument is available. > >After being calibrated, which is accomplished by grounding a pin and then >rotating the plane 720 degrees, accuracy is >+ or - 1/2 degree. > >It cost only $147.00 and is available from West Marine. > >For a picture go to http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ the compass >is in the left upper corner of the panel. As you can see, it would be nice >if the vertical compass card was white lettering on black. My wife says >the blue goes well with the Artificial Horizon instrument. For awhile >Ritchie said they would produce a model with white lettering on a black >background. My current understanding is that they decided not to do this. > >Quite a few builders saw this on my web page and bought a unit. Some of >them are flying now. I remember at least one report. Check the archive. > >While you are at this web site, check out the WigWag Solid State >Controller. > >Bob > > > > > > ><toucan@the-i.net> > > > > > >Dear Bob, > > > > > > Although you've mentioned using electronic compasses in airplanes >in > > >your writings, I have yet to find a suitable one for a panel or >dash-top > > >mount. Do you have info you could pass along? > > > > > >Jim Cameron, Lancair ES builder > > > > > > I don't have any personal experience with the modern > > electronic compasses . . . something I need to do one of > > these days. There were some discussions on the Kitfox > > list a few months back wherein some folks have tried > > electronic compasses with mixed results. I'm sorry but > > I don't recall the details of those conversations. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > -------------------------------------------------- > > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > > -------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.aeroelectric.com > >Bob Haan >http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ >bhaan(at)easystreet.com >Portland, OR >RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Component Locations
>Thank you for your help. I really appreciate the information you have out on >the web. It is very helpful to me since my background is mechanical >engineering, and I'm slighty timid regarding electronics. > >With the Z-7 schematic and a Rotax 912, if the battery fails in flight, does >anything happen to the operation of the engine? I am supposing that the >large capaciter is there to "smoot-out" the power in the case that the >battery is gone. Am I correct, or off-base? More than anything, I'm >wonderring this to decide how often to replace my battery down the road. I'm >planning on buying a little RG battery when I'm closer to flying. First, The Rotax has dual, independent ignition systems that do not depend on the alternator. They share the same MAGNET with the alternator but that's all. However, if your fuel system is not gravity feed and/or mechanically pumped, then all the ignition in the world will help if the electric pumps go quiet. Second, maintained batteries just don't fail. If you plan to treat the battery in your airplane like the one in your car (flog it until it won't whimper any more) then failures at the wrong time are possible . . . If it were my airplane, it would get a new battery every annual. CHEAP vaccine against the dreaded "black panel virus" . . . See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_thd.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf and Chapter 17 in the AeroElectric Connection. Last, the PM alternator on a Rotax will continue to deliver useful output sans battery if you have included an nice fat filter capacitor (22,000 uFd minimum) across the rectifier/regulator's output. This capacitor is shown on all of our wiring diagrams for PM alternator systems. >Another quick question: would it be ok to hook-up a 12V power supply in >place of the battery to test the systems? (I don't want to buy the battery >and have it sit for a few months before I'm ready to fly) You betcha! We used to stock and sell a 13.8v, 22 Amp, regulated power supply. The original source dried up but I'm thinking about putting another version on our website catalog. Also, consider using any ol' battery and a battery charger for initial testing. I wouldn't buy the real battery for the airplane until a week before first flight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Starters....... Take
two > >Bob, > >Let me try again. I didn't describe my system correctly. Here it is again. >I thought I had done it exactly like Z-14 with the addition of the shunt >from Z-8. My shunt and fuse are bolted together and then bolted to the >bottom of the engine up front. When you say the shunt and fuse are bolted together, this paints an image of having put the fuse directly on one of the shunt's studs. I presume there is a wire bolted to the other end. A note of caution. These fuses are not designed to take large bending loads on their terminals. I've had two cases in the 5 or 6 years I've sold that product where builders suffered a failed fuse when one of the end caps disconnected from the body of the fuse. Don't change what you have but be aware and let me know if you have the problem. A mitigating circumstance is the fact that you're using welding cable . . . MUCH more flexible than 2AWG "aircraft" wire. What you have may perform well and long. >Battery plus to master via #2 wire > > From the master relay to the starter via #2 wire >>From starter to shunt via a 6" piece of #2 (the shunt is bolted under the >engine in front) >Shunt is bolted to 80 amp fuse >>From 80 amp fuse to alternator via a 6" piece of #2 wire > >I am using welding wire throughout. > >The S-704 relay is used to control the solenoid on the starter. Okay, this sounds right now. If you get a chance, drop me a photo of your wiring and shunt installation between starter and alternator. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shunts, fuses, S-704's and PM Starters.......
Take two
Date: Mar 21, 2001
> When you say the shunt and fuse are bolted together, this > paints an image of having put the fuse directly on one > of the shunt's studs. I presume there is a wire bolted > to the other end. This is correct. As you know, the shunt has mounting holes that I used to bolt it directlt to the bottom of the engine in front. I enlarged the hole on the fuse slightly so that I could bolt it directly to the shunt with a AN-3 bolt. A short piece of #2 welding wire connects the othr end of the fuse to the alternator. > A note of caution. These fuses are not designed to take > large bending loads on their terminals. I've had two > cases in the 5 or 6 years I've sold that product where > builders suffered a failed fuse when one of the > end caps disconnected from the body of the fuse. I will look at it again and provide this short piece of wire with some more support to minimize the bending loads. Thanks for the heads up on the end caps. I will order a spare. > Okay, this sounds right now. If you get a chance, > drop me a photo of your wiring and shunt installation > between starter and alternator. I will. I have some pictures of the "control panel" for the SD-8 I will send also. Ross ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel" <michelboucher594(at)home.com>
Subject: Bonding
Date: Mar 21, 2001
Could not find anything in Bob's book or Archives on Control Surfaces electrical bonding and/or static wicks for these homebuilts. Anybody has ideas as to its value or lack of in particular to operating IFR. Thanks Michel Boucher RV3 C-GGRV RV81117 wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: switch location and radio interference
>I am planning my panel for my RV-4, and can fit most everything on the >panel if I locate my toggle switches below my radio "stack" (SL-40 and >SL-70). Do the switches themselves, and I am thinking specifically of the >alternator field switch, constitute a source of radio noise, and if so, is >it the distance from the antenna or the receiver or both that is of concern? >I am going to try and follow your book, using an internally regulated >alternator with the crowfoot overvoltage protection gizmo, but if the >switches themselves are a source of noise if my installation is less than >perfect, then I can mount them elsewhere and run the extra wire. >(Preferably, just the noisy switches.) Most radio wiring comes out the back of the trays while switch panel wiring is generally bundled together and carried way to the side of the panel routed along the back side of the panel. Switches are not active emitters of noise and no worse conductors of noise than the wires that connect them. Just bundle wires from switches and radios separately. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bonding
> > >Could not find anything in Bob's book or Archives on Control Surfaces >electrical bonding and/or static wicks for these homebuilts. >Anybody has ideas as to its value or lack of in particular to operating IFR. >Thanks >Michel Boucher >RV3 C-GGRV >RV81117 wiring It doesn't hurt to put a bonding strap across the hinge joints of control surfaces. This applies only to metal or carbon fiber machines. If you're building a glas/expoxy machine, don't bother . . . there's nothing conductive to which you can attach the bonding straps. I would not worry about bonding control cables. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
> >Is that feature considered by the FAA as a stabilized compass? > >Daniel Pelletier >601hds Where are you finding the word "stabilized" . . . a gyro compass is certainly a stable device compared to the wet compass . . . however, without the benefits of a earth magnetic field sensor system, it may or may not be an "accurate" compass. Electronic compasses have the potential at least for being VERY accurate. Further, there are electronic games that can be played to minimize the effects of turbulence. There are still TURNING errors . . . unless the earth flux sensor maintained level with respect to the earth's surface, it will register errors for the duration of non-level operation. So, while less "stable" compared to a gyro compass, I would still pick an electronic compass over most alternatives because I'd rather have the accuracy and stable readings during turbulent flight. If I am aware of loss of accuracy during turns and/or steep pitch angles, then I'm not likely to be fooled into flying the wrong direction while doing these maneuvers. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Trim switch wiring
> >Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate control >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and elevator >trim. > >Thanks in advance, > >Hal Woodruff >Lancair IVP Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already have one. Also, would you like to host another weekend seminar? I'm thinking about May 19/20. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Toggle switch?
> >Bob, > >On the Lancair IVP that I'm building I would like to have the left mag >switch have an ON-OFF-(ON) function where the momentary position turns on >the primer solenoid on the engine and the high boost pump. Connecting the >primer and the boost pump into the momentary (ON) of a 2TL1-5 would work >except for the fact that the boost pump has a separate switch that functions >as OFF-LOW-HIGH boost. Connecting as such would cause the primer solenoid >to turn on when the boost pump switch was turned to the high boost position >- not good. Gee Hal, I think there's a bunch of stuff I missed getting answers out on . . . I downloaded this on a trip and it has been languishing in my laptop. You can use a combination of diodes to turn on both the boost pump and the primer valve when the switch is raised all the way up . . . How are you energizing the starter? Are you sure you what the boost/primer combo for the duration of cranking cycle or do you plan a separate pushbutton for starter? >As I see it I need a 3TL1-5 if such a critter exists. I found a 4TL1-5 in >the Newark catalog but they want nearly $50 for it. > >Maybe another solution might include a diode in the circuit to keep the >boost pump switch from turning on the primer solenoid. Another solution >might be to have a 2TL1-5 turn on a relay to energize the primer and the >boost pump. > >What do you think? I'm trying to eliminate a switch on the panel much the >same as the right mag switch doubles as a starter switch. I'm not sure I have a clear notion of what you want to have happen here. Normally the left mag is the starter switch and the starter circuit is routed through the right mag such that it becomes disabled if the right mag is NOT in the OFF position. If you were to combine prime-boost with the right (non impulse coupled) mag, then you'd have to raise the switch out of the OFF position . . . not something we want to do. Suppose we did something like this: Let's rig the primer valve so that it opens -IF- the boost pump is on LOW AND the starter is cranking. If you want to limit the priming you can turn the boost pump back OFF. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
Subject: Trim switch wiring
Date: Mar 22, 2001
I plan to do the same thing on my Mustang II and would appreciate getting a schematic as well. -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:47 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim switch wiring Nuckolls, III" > >Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate control >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and elevator >trim. > >Thanks in advance, > >Hal Woodruff >Lancair IVP Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already have one. Also, would you like to host another weekend seminar? I'm thinking about May 19/20. Bob . . . through http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "RION BOURGEOIS" <rion(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: switch location and radio interference
Date: Mar 22, 2001
Thank you. Rion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: switch location and radio interference > > > >I am planning my panel for my RV-4, and can fit most everything on the > >panel if I locate my toggle switches below my radio "stack" (SL-40 and > >SL-70). Do the switches themselves, and I am thinking specifically of the > >alternator field switch, constitute a source of radio noise, and if so, is > >it the distance from the antenna or the receiver or both that is of concern? > >I am going to try and follow your book, using an internally regulated > >alternator with the crowfoot overvoltage protection gizmo, but if the > >switches themselves are a source of noise if my installation is less than > >perfect, then I can mount them elsewhere and run the extra wire. > >(Preferably, just the noisy switches.) > > > Most radio wiring comes out the back of the trays while > switch panel wiring is generally bundled together and > carried way to the side of the panel routed along > the back side of the panel. Switches are not active > emitters of noise and no worse conductors of noise > than the wires that connect them. Just bundle wires > from switches and radios separately. > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DWENSING(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 22, 2001
Subject: Re: switch location and radio interference
In a message dated 3/22/01 2:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: << Most radio wiring comes out the back of the trays while switch panel wiring is generally bundled together and carried way to the side of the panel routed along the back side of the panel. >> Bob, I did not use shielded wire for push to talk wires from the control stick to the back of the radio. Should I? Checked your book - didn't find answer. Dale Ensing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
Date: Mar 23, 2001
Hi Bob, The word "stabilizes" came from the law in Canada who said: 60.16 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose on nignt VFR flight, unless it is equiped with (...) f)where the aircraft is operated so that an aerodrome is not visible from the aircraft, a "stabilized magnetic" direction indicator ou a gyroscopic direction indicator; My question was, is the Ritchie electronic compas sold by west marine may be considered by the Canada law as a "stabilized magnetic compass"? Wait for comments Daniel Pelletier 601 HDS\W SOOB >> > > > >Is that feature considered by the FAA as a stabilized compass? > > > >Daniel Pelletier > >601hds > > Where are you finding the word "stabilized" . . . a gyro > compass is certainly a stable device compared to the > wet compass . . . however, without the benefits of a > earth magnetic field sensor system, it may or may not > be an "accurate" compass. > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Trim switch wiring
The Mac documentation has two schemes. The one I used requires a 4PDT switch. This switch gives a Fwd/Off/Aft selection, IE the pilot can give the trim to the aft stick but can get it back any time. I don't have a mailable schematic but could create one if somebody dosn't already have one handy. Jim Bean RV-8 fuselage wiring "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > > >Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate control > >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot > >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm > >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and elevator > >trim. > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Hal Woodruff > >Lancair IVP > > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd > be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already > have one. > > Also, would you like to host another weekend seminar? > I'm thinking about May 19/20. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic compasses
> > >Hi Bob, > >The word "stabilizes" came from the law in Canada who said: > >60.16 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for >the purpose on nignt VFR flight, unless it is equiped with >(...) >f)where the aircraft is operated so that an aerodrome is not visible from >the aircraft, a "stabilized magnetic" direction indicator . . I would think that an electronic compass might fall adequately into this category. What the writer was asking for was better performance in the turns than a wet compass. I think the electronic products are going to be MUCH better. While they exhibit turning errors, they don't GYRATE like the wet compass does in turbulence or highly accelerated turns. You might want to experiment with the compass after installation and see how well you can do a turn to heading maneuver. For example, do some 90 degree turns right and left from N,E,S,W. When you do a classic rollout a few degrees before reaching the desired heading on the indicator, see how far off you are when wings get level again. You might want to placard the indicator with something like "Bank Angle Limit 15 degrees for Turns to Heading" or some such. This usually corresponds to something close to a standard rate turn. You may well discover that for ordinary IFR-like maneuvers, the electronic compass performs with very close to gyro-stabilized utility. > or a gyroscopic direction indicator; > >My question was, is the Ritchie electronic compas sold by west marine may be >considered by the Canada law as a "stabilized magnetic compass"? The stabilized magnetic compass technology in place when these words were written was probably the electrically driven remote compass. The display was a pointer on a vertical compass card . . . a lot like an ADF display. These critters also had turning error but were MUCH more stable in turbulence. I've never had a chance to fly on and compare it . . . it's unlikely that any modern bureaucrat has flown one either. I'd think your chances for a successful claim of equivalency would be pretty good. You'd certainly want to flight test it yourself before you present it to any kind of examiner . . . if there are limits to be placed on it's operation it would be better that you establish the limits and be prepared to demonstrate them than to have anyone else do it for you. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vince Welch" <vwelch(at)knownet.net>
Subject: Re: Trim switch wiring
Date: Mar 22, 2001
I'd like to see that schematic also if you don't mind Bob. Vince ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 5:46 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trim switch wiring > > > > >Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate control > >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot > >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm > >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and elevator > >trim. > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Hal Woodruff > >Lancair IVP > > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd > be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already > have one. > > Also, would you like to host another weekend seminar? > I'm thinking about May 19/20. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: switch location and radio
interference > >In a message dated 3/22/01 2:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, >nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com writes: > ><< Most radio wiring comes out the back of the trays while > switch panel wiring is generally bundled together and > carried way to the side of the panel routed along > the back side of the panel. >> > >Bob, > I did not use shielded wire for push to talk wires from the control stick to >the back of the radio. Should I? Checked your book - didn't find answer. >Dale Ensing Push to talk wires are not potential victims. Unshielded wire here is not likely to be a problem. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna ground plane
>I am going to install a Microair 760 in a tube and fabric Kolb >Slingshot. I purchased a steel whip antenna. > >I know I need a ground plane, the question is how large. Presently, I >plan to mount the antenna to a .050" 6061 T6 aluminum plate which is >riveted to the aircraft's steel frame. The aluminum mounting plate is >powder coated and is approx. 5 sq. in. It is riveted with stainless >steel rivets to the steel tube frame (which is also powder coated). > >Q. 1: Is a 5 sq. in ground plane large enough (its riveted to the >frame)? If I need a larger ground plane, how big should it be? > I am about to cover the fuselage and now is the time to >correct this problem, if I have a problem. An metallic surface added under the antenna mounting for the purpose of becoming a ground plane will not be effective until it's radius out from the base of the antenna equals the height of the antenna . . . or about 20" The 5" square piece would be more properly called a mounting surface. >Q. 2: Is it ok that the mounting plate is powder coated? Will the >powder coating interfere with grounding. Yes. I presume you're supporting the 5" square mounting surface by use of clamps around the tubular structure. One of those clamps at least, and better if two clamps were made of bare metal and made good electrical contact with the airframe . . . this way, the metal fuselage could become an effective if not perfect ground plane. Alternatively, make sure the 5" square plate is mechanically sturdy enough to hold the antenna in place under air loads and don't worry about bonding it to the airframe. Then, run 1" wide x 20" long copper tape strips out from the base of the antenna in 8 directions. You can use adhesive tape stuck to the inside of the fabric. They should come together on a brass or copper disk at the center of the antenna mounting hole. The disk would be 3-4 inches in diameter and the tapes would be soldered to it. Then your coax shield would also solder to the ground plane commoning disk. After the tapes are installed, I'd glue a layer of fabric down over them on the inside so that they do not depend on adhesive for retention. >Q.3: Is the steel whip antenna a good choice, I am told the new >fiberglass "broadband antennas" are far superior. I did not pay > for the steel whip, so it will not bother me to replace it if >it is advisable. That antenna was used by the tens of thousands with good success and is still sold. I'll have on in my website catalog in a few weeks. If installed so as to not compromise its electrical performance potential I think you'll find it quite satisfactory. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2001
From: Doug Shenk <dshenk3(at)home.com>
Subject: Re: Trim switch wiring
I would be interested in seeing this schematic as well. I'm using the custom grips that Van sells with the the 4-way coolie hat switch and have a relay deck for each servo (aileron and elevator). If you could please send me a copy as well I would sure appreciate it. Thanks, Doug Shenk RV-6a building. "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > >Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate control > >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot > >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm > >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and elevator > >trim. > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Hal Woodruff > >Lancair IVP > > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd > be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already > have one. > > Also, would you like to host another weekend seminar? > I'm thinking about May 19/20. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2001
From: "WIEBE, MIKE" <mike.wiebe(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Galls Flasher, wiring option
Bob....another boring flasher question - apologies from a neophyte in advance. I'm putting a landing and a taxi light in the aircraft (extra-narrow beam, 12V "kitchen" halogen, as per two years of good experience from an RV-6 driving friend - I'll let you know how it works out for me), and would like to accomplish the following with a Galls flasher unit. Three switches on the panel (for this item, switch minimization is not a priority). One switch for the landing light, one for the taxi light and one for the flasher. Wiring done as follows.....Picture the flasher unit installed as normal, with each of the two output lines (providing alternating flashes) wired to one of the lights. Then wire the two "direct" switches so that they bypass the galls and put 12V directly to their respective light. Net result.....turning on the flasher switch (with the light switches off) alternately flashes both lights. Turning on either of the light switches (with the flasher switch off) turns on a steady beam. Turning on one (or the other) light switch AND the flasher switch allows one light to burn steady and the other to flash. I've asked the question locally and have gotten responses varying from "of course that's the right way to wire it, how else would you!", through to "you'll blow up the galls box". Thoughts? As a side comment. I've got each light fused 10A, and the galls unit fused at 15A. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2001
Subject: Re: Trim switch wiring
From: Denis Walsh <deniswalsh(at)earthlink.net>
on 3/22/01 9:20 PM, Vince Welch at vwelch(at)knownet.net wrote: I would like to interject a plug for our own Matt's speed control gadget for the Mac trim stystem. If you use this gadget, you can not only adjust the speed, you can ue as many trim swittches of almost any type that you want without installing any relay decks. This makes for a simpler system with less complexity and fewer failure points (IMHO). With this system, whoever starts trimming first gets the power. It is perhaps more important to have a cut out switch installed if you have that system. D Walsh Happy with the system, in a 6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Knicholas2(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 23, 2001
Subject: trim switches
In a message dated 3/22/2001 11:52:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate control >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and elevator >trim. > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already have one. >> Bob, I would like a schematic too please. Kim Nicholas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2001
From: Bob Haan <bhaan(at)easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: Galls Flasher, wiring option
Mike, Take a look at the data sheet for the WigWag Solid State Controller. It can be found at http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ The WigWag Solid State Controller, WSSC, provides the functionality you describe. It is different in the following ways:- 1. Uses only two fuses 2.. The 12 volt power circuit is redundant, meaning that if one fuse blows the other fuse continues to power the controller functions and other light remains operational. 3. The switches conduct only milli amps to ground. They command the WigWag controller what to do. 4. It is significantly easier to install and wire up. Fuse Fuse Rt Light Lt Light * * * * * * ---------------------------- | | Lt Light******* Wig Wag |******** Rt Light | | --------------------------- * * * * Switches * * * * *#22 Gage***/ ***GND WigWag * * * * * ***#22 Gage********/ ***GND Right Light * * * ***# 22 Gage************/ ***GND Left Light GND 5. Uses less wire. The exact amount would depend on your positioning of the fuses, the switches and the WigWag but I would estimate it to be about 20 feet saved. 6. Has a filament warmer. 7. Has a bulb out detector that powers an alarm or 2 LEDs; Lt and Rt. Although you said switch space was not an issue, many other switch types could be used to command the WigWag Solid State Controller. For example, a DPDT center off could be wired so that down is both lights on steady and up is WigWaging. For example, 2 SPDT center off switches could be wired so that down on the left SPDT is stead on for the left light, down on the right SPDT is steady on for the Right light. Up on either switch is the lights WigWag. Bob >I'm putting a landing and a taxi light in the aircraft (extra-narrow >beam, 12V "kitchen" halogen, . . .and >would like to accomplish the following with a Galls flasher unit. > >Three switches on the panel (for this item, switch minimization is not a >priority). One switch for the landing light, one for the taxi light and >one for the flasher. Wiring done as follows.....Picture the flasher >unit installed as normal, with each of the two output lines (providing >alternating flashes) wired to one of the lights. Then wire the two >"direct" switches so that they bypass the galls and put 12V directly to >their respective light. Net result.....turning on the flasher switch >(with the light switches off) alternately flashes both lights. Turning >on either of the light switches (with the flasher switch off) turns on a >steady beam. Turning on one (or the other) light switch AND the flasher >switch allows one light to burn steady and the other to flash. Bob Haan http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ bhaan(at)easystreet.com Portland, OR RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: Trim Wiring Schematic
Listers, The bottom half of the attachment is my trim wiring. It is a .WMF file. I am using the Menzimer 7 button stick. The 4 trim buttons are electrically the same as a hat switch. There is a similar schematic in the Menzimer documentation. The key item is the 4 pole double throw switch. It is a switchcraft model available from DigiKey. Jim Bean ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
From: "Mike & Lee Anne (mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca)" <mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Galls Flasher, wiring option
Bob....great info, thanks. I'd love to see the url, but all I get is a "please wait" after the system attempts to launch rundll32.exe. Is it me or you? Further frustration.....I already own the Galls unit......and I already have the 3 switches mounted (in the SECOND instrument panel I've built - arrrrrgggghhhh!). Hence my "creative solution". Mike Bob Haan wrote: > > Mike, > > Take a look at the data sheet for the WigWag Solid State Controller. It > can be found at > > http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ > > The WigWag Solid State Controller, WSSC, provides the functionality you > describe. It is different in the following ways:- > > 1. Uses only two fuses > > 2.. The 12 volt power circuit is redundant, meaning that if one fuse blows > the other fuse continues to power the controller functions and other light > remains operational. > > 3. The switches conduct only milli amps to ground. They command the > WigWag controller what to do. > > 4. It is significantly easier to install and wire up. > > Fuse Fuse > Rt Light Lt Light > * * > * * > * * > ---------------------------- > | | > Lt Light******* Wig Wag |******** Rt Light > | | > --------------------------- > * * * * Switches > * * * * *#22 Gage***/ ***GND WigWag > * * * > * * ***#22 Gage********/ ***GND Right > Light > * * > * ***# 22 Gage************/ ***GND Left Light > GND > > 5. Uses less wire. The exact amount would depend on your positioning of > the fuses, the switches and the WigWag but I would estimate it to be about > 20 feet saved. > > 6. Has a filament warmer. > > 7. Has a bulb out detector that powers an alarm or 2 LEDs; Lt and Rt. > > Although you said switch space was not an issue, many other switch types > could be used to command the WigWag Solid State Controller. For example, a > DPDT center off could be wired so that down is both lights on steady and up > is WigWaging. For example, 2 SPDT center off switches could be wired so > that down on the left SPDT is stead on for the left light, down on the > right SPDT is steady on for the Right light. Up on either switch is the > lights WigWag. > > Bob > > >I'm putting a landing and a taxi light in the aircraft (extra-narrow > >beam, 12V "kitchen" halogen, . . .and > >would like to accomplish the following with a Galls flasher unit. > > > >Three switches on the panel (for this item, switch minimization is not a > >priority). One switch for the landing light, one for the taxi light and > >one for the flasher. Wiring done as follows.....Picture the flasher > >unit installed as normal, with each of the two output lines (providing > >alternating flashes) wired to one of the lights. Then wire the two > >"direct" switches so that they bypass the galls and put 12V directly to > >their respective light. Net result.....turning on the flasher switch > >(with the light switches off) alternately flashes both lights. Turning > >on either of the light switches (with the flasher switch off) turns on a > >steady beam. Turning on one (or the other) light switch AND the flasher > >switch allows one light to burn steady and the other to flash. > > Bob Haan > http://easystreet.com/~bhaan/ > bhaan(at)easystreet.com > Portland, OR > RV6A 24461 Wiring the panel > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 03/23/01
Date: Mar 24, 2001
I would like to get some comments on the "necessity" for overvoltage protection in the alternator circuit. I can only assume that cars don't use them first because the battery is larger and second because a boiled-dry battery in a car is only an inconvenience. However, most new monitoring system like the one in my plane has an overvoltage warning function. I would think if you got an overvoltage warning you could always shut off the alternator and run on the battery until it got low, then turn the alternator back on to add some charge at will, thus prolonging the battery life indefinitely. With the "crowbar" once you have an overvoltage you lose the alternator permanently. An overvoltage condition can only happen with a shorted voltage regulator, forcing the alternator to go to a maximum current output, not in my opinion a drastic failure as the battery, until boiled dry, will limit the system voltage to a reasonable value. Any discussion? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 03/23/01
How fast can you react? I have seen aircraft radios and instruments permanently fried due to excessive voltage..very costly, due to the lack of a crowbar circuit. Considering the difference of the cost of a crowbar module, and your electrical/electronics equipment..is it worth taking a chance? Good luck! Regards, Vern Smith Gary Casey wrote: > > I would like to get some comments on the "necessity" for overvoltage > protection in the alternator circuit. I can only assume that cars don't use > them first because the battery is larger and second because a boiled-dry > battery in a car is only an inconvenience. However, most new monitoring > system like the one in my plane has an overvoltage warning function. I > would think if you got an overvoltage warning you could always shut off the > alternator and run on the battery until it got low, then turn the alternator > back on to add some charge at will, thus prolonging the battery life > indefinitely. With the "crowbar" once you have an overvoltage you lose the > alternator permanently. An overvoltage condition can only happen with a > shorted voltage regulator, forcing the alternator to go to a maximum current > output, not in my opinion a drastic failure as the battery, until boiled > dry, will limit the system voltage to a reasonable value. Any discussion? > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
From: Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com>
Subject: Panel switches
All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? Regards, Tom Velvick Peoria, AZ N188KJ reserved rv-6a wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
From: "Mike & Lee Anne (mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca)" <mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Panel switches
One way....turn that index ring around and fit it over the barrel before you pop the switch thru the hole, so that it does it's job from the backside of the panel. Then veeeeerrrrrry caaaaarrrrfullllllyyyyyy drill that index hole into the back of your panel, without going all the way through. Depending on panel thickness, shape of drill bit end, etc., you may have to file the index ring slightly to get a solid seat. M Thomas Velvick wrote: > > All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them > that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch > from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other > that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the > switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? > > Regards, > Tom Velvick > Peoria, AZ > N188KJ reserved rv-6a wiring > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
Subject: Breaker rating question (SD8 Alternator)
From: ulf3(at)juno.com
Bob, I am installing B&C's SD8 alternator using pertinent portions of your Figure Z-8 (04/00) wiring diagram. On this drawing it shows a 5 Amp rated breaker. On B&C's instructions (DWG No. 420-501 Rev B dated 4/25/95) it shows a 10Amp breaker. I will use 12 AWG wire. Which is correct? Thank for clarifying this point. Ulrich La Fosse All electric CH801 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 03/23/01
Another thought - Bob recommends that the battery be sized so that you have enough capacity to run the essential loads until you run out of gas. If you do that, you don't need to ponder turning the alternator on again until you've fixed the problem. I agree with Vern - given the cost of replacement avionics, its a no-brainer to install over voltage protection. Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing wheel pants, etc) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >How fast can you react? I have seen aircraft radios and instruments >permanently >fried due to excessive voltage..very costly, due to the lack of a crowbar >circuit. Considering the difference of the cost of a crowbar module, and your >electrical/electronics equipment..is it worth taking a chance? Good luck! >Regards, Vern Smith > >Gary Casey wrote: > >> >> I would like to get some comments on the "necessity" for overvoltage >> protection in the alternator circuit. I can only assume that cars don't use >> them first because the battery is larger and second because a boiled-dry >> battery in a car is only an inconvenience. However, most new monitoring >> system like the one in my plane has an overvoltage warning function. I >> would think if you got an overvoltage warning you could always shut off the >> alternator and run on the battery until it got low, then turn the alternator >> back on to add some charge at will, thus prolonging the battery life >> indefinitely. With the "crowbar" once you have an overvoltage you lose the >> alternator permanently. An overvoltage condition can only happen with a >> shorted voltage regulator, forcing the alternator to go to a maximum current >> output, not in my opinion a drastic failure as the battery, until boiled >> dry, will limit the system voltage to a reasonable value. Any discussion? >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Windhorn(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 25, 2001
Subject: Re: trim switches
In a message dated 3/23/2001 2:51:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, Knicholas2(at)aol.com writes: > << Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate > control > >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot > >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm > >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and > elevator > >trim. > > > > > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd > be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already > have one. >> > Bob, I would like the schematic for the above as well. If you could also add a method of disconnecting the control stick switches leaving control with a panel mounted (on)-off-(on) [it think that is how you designate them] rocker switch alone, would appreciate the added detail. Have you book, lots of good information. Thanks in advance. Regards, Doug Windhorn "windhorn(at)aol.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Seminar Followup
>Hi Bob, >I enjoyed the seminar this weekend (except for the cold ;-)). Lots of >useful information from you and others in attendance. You mentioned >briefly an idea to build a low fuel sensing device using an LED and >receiver. You might want to check out Pillar Point Avionics, Inc. They >have exactly what you described. I didnt mention it earlier because I >thought it worked on a differant principle. The web site is >http://www.ppavionics.com . Also, the company that makes an under >glareshield EL light strip is Aeroenhancements at >http://www.aeroenhancements.com/. > >I hope to be able to talk to you again soon > >Lee Clements Lee, Correct on both counts. Thanks for the links. I'm forwarding them to the AeroElectric-List too so that other folks can check them out. Sorry it was so cold . . . maybe we should have stirred up more "heated" discussions to keep warm! Holler if we can help . . . Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs -
03/23/01 > >>Gary Casey wrote: >> >>> >>> I would like to get some comments on the "necessity" for overvoltage >>> protection in the alternator circuit. I can only assume that cars don't use >>> them first because the battery is larger and second because a boiled-dry >>> battery in a car is only an inconvenience. However, most new monitoring >>> system like the one in my plane has an overvoltage warning function. I >>> would think if you got an overvoltage warning you could always shut off the >>> alternator and run on the battery until it got low, then turn the alternator >>> back on to add some charge at will, thus prolonging the battery life >>> indefinitely. With the "crowbar" once you have an overvoltage you lose the >>> alternator permanently. Not so. It's the only circuit breaker I recommend in the various systems illustrated in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/R9Z_0400.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z14.pdf . . . and elsewhere on the website. If you do get a ov trip, you can certainly push the breaker back in as many times as you feel are necessary to convince yourself that there's a real problem. But like breakers, ov systems tend to be a warning that something is amiss . . . there's no reason for an owner built and maintained aircraft to suffer nuisance trips . . . unlike certified iron, we FIX nuisance trips so they don't happen any more. Having done the responsible thing with respect to design, the tripped breaker should be a pretty accurate depiction of a condition that should be delt with LATER and on the ground. > An overvoltage condition can only happen with a >>> shorted voltage regulator, forcing the alternator to go to a maximum current >>> output, Correct . . . the voltage will climb to ov trip point in a few hundred milliseconds (16.5 volts) and it keeps right on truck'n from there. Depending on the condition of your battery, size of the alternator and number of accessories running at the time, you may have minutes to less than a second to react to the rising voltage . . . but no matter WHAT the condition of the battery, the voltage WILL rise to levels harmful to electro-goodies in the airplane. The only question is how fast . . . > not in my opinion a drastic failure as the battery, until boiled >>> dry, will limit the system voltage to a reasonable value. Any discussion? >>> Doesn't happen this way. No certified airplane today (nor for about the past 20-25 years) has left the factory without OV protection. Some cars are getting it too but it's difficult to identify which models DO have it amongst the hundreds of choices . . . when in doubt, put it in yourself and know that it works. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary K" <FlyinK(at)efortress.com>
Subject: Re: trim switches
Date: Mar 25, 2001
Just an idea on the trim setup, I've heard stories of runaway trim and I heard that SH recommended a fix for the Glastar where there is an "enable" button. I thought this was a good idea so I'm going to try it on my kit. I have Mac grips and servos and I will put a micro push button near the throttle somewhere which will provide power to the Mac grip(s). When trimming, my right hand will push the button, and the left hand will work the trim on the stick grip. This should prevent any chance of runaway trim and make trimming much more challenging ;<}. Has anyone heard or tried this? Gary K. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Windhorn(at)aol.com> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: trim switches > > In a message dated 3/23/2001 2:51:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Knicholas2(at)aol.com writes: > > > << Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate > > control > > >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot > > >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? I'm > > >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and > > elevator > > >trim. > > > > > > > > > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd > > be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already > > have one. >> > > > Bob, > > I would like the schematic for the above as well. If you could also add a > method of disconnecting the control stick switches leaving control with a > panel mounted (on)-off-(on) [it think that is how you designate them] rocker > switch alone, would appreciate the added detail. > > Have you book, lots of good information. > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards, Doug Windhorn > "windhorn(at)aol.com" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. Wayne Williams" <rwayne(at)gamewood.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/21/01
Date: Mar 25, 2001
I'm trying to figure out the PTT for my Infinity stick grip. Should I run a wire from the mic plug the switch, then the other end to metal frame ground? (I'm building an RV8A.) Or, should I run a second wire back from the switch to the mic plug and ground at the plug? (The shielding from the 2 conductor mic wire is attached to the inner ring and the plug is electrically isolated from the metal frame.) Should the PTT wire be shielded? Thanks! Wayne Williams ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Lane" <n3773(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: trim switches
Date: Mar 25, 2001
I had runaway trim on my RV-6A last year. Turns out an unused wire had gone to ground after I had poked around during the annual checking for any abrasions. At least with the RV it is not that big a deal to override the trim tab, especially if you are willing to reduce your airspeed a bit. Making the system more complicated strikes me as fixing a problem that doesn't exist. Remember that introducing more switches and interfaces also increases the number of failure pieces and combinations. Micro switches for instance, have a lousy track record in my plane. Having flown 800+ hrs so far I recommend thinking long and hard about the maintenance aspect of the systems you install. Kevin N3773 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary K" <FlyinK(at)efortress.com> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: trim switches > > Just an idea on the trim setup, I've heard stories of runaway trim and I > heard that SH recommended a fix for the Glastar where there is an "enable" > button. I thought this was a good idea so I'm going to try it on my kit. I > have Mac grips and servos and I will put a micro push button near the > throttle somewhere which will provide power to the Mac grip(s). When > trimming, my right hand will push the button, and the left hand will work > the trim on the stick grip. This should prevent any chance of runaway trim > and make trimming much more challenging ;<}. Has anyone heard or tried > this? > > Gary K. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Windhorn(at)aol.com> > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: trim switches > > > > > > In a message dated 3/23/2001 2:51:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Knicholas2(at)aol.com writes: > > > > > << Does anyone have a resource on how to wire trim switches on separate > > > control > > > >sticks so that either cooley hat switch could be used, but the pilot > > > >controlled switch would have priority and override the copilot side? > I'm > > > >planning on using the Infinity grips and Mac Servos for rudder and > > > elevator > > > >trim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hal, Did I get around to answering this? If not, I'd > > > be pleased to do a schematic for you if you don't already > > > have one. >> > > > > > Bob, > > > > I would like the schematic for the above as well. If you could also add a > > method of disconnecting the control stick switches leaving control with a > > panel mounted (on)-off-(on) [it think that is how you designate them] > rocker > > switch alone, would appreciate the added detail. > > > > Have you book, lots of good information. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Regards, Doug Windhorn > > "windhorn(at)aol.com" > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Windhorn(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 26, 2001
Subject: Re: trim switches
Kevin, You could help us out a bit here with identifying WHAT unused wire, WHERE it was located, and WHY you felt you needed to poke around there for abrasions (not protection?). If unused, was it abraded or simply an uninsulated wire end (we wouldn't look down on you for that since it has been corrected). It would help us to understand your viewpoint better. I have heard of runaways due to overtightend coolie hat switches, or other switch failures, and a propensity of the MAC handle switches to be oversensitive to touch so the unintended trim changes were underway. Seems to me the most likely (but not only) places for problems is in the sticks and at the opposite end though I have not heard of any problems at the servo end. I will have a panel mounted rocker trim switch (hopefully reliable), and maybe single or dual stick mounted trims yet to be determined. Regards, Doug Windhorn, to be N51DW In a message dated 3/25/2001 8:34:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, n3773(at)earthlink.net writes: > I had runaway trim on my RV-6A last year. Turns out an unused wire had gone > to ground after I had poked around during the annual checking for any > abrasions. At least with the RV it is not that big a deal to override the > trim tab, especially if you are willing to reduce your airspeed a bit. > Making the system more complicated strikes me as fixing a problem that > doesn't exist. Remember that introducing more switches and interfaces also > increases the number of failure pieces and combinations. Micro switches for > instance, have a lousy track record in my plane. Having flown 800+ hrs so > far I recommend thinking long and hard about the maintenance aspect of the > systems you install. Kevin N3773 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com>
Subject: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ?
Date: Mar 25, 2001
Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to supplement batteries. See for instance http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.htm. See also http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.htm. These capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller batteries in aircraft. The Glastar, for instance, is often nose-heavy. Perhaps an ultracapacitor can be put ahead of the firewall with short cables to the starter. The battery could be placed in the tailcone with lessened concern about the voltage drop from battery to starter. Any comments on this scheme ? -Vaso Bovan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: Francis Malczynski <ebafm(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Panel switches
I found that you could start a drill hole for the tab and then use a small round Dremel attachment to deepen the sides of the hole without actually going through the panel. I also filed some metal off of the ends of the tabs so that the locking tab sits flush with the back of the panel. Didn't take all that long and I feel secure that my switches will not rotate. Fran Malczynski RV6 - N594EF (finishing) Olcott, NY Thomas Velvick wrote: All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? Regards, Tom Velvick Peoria, AZ N188KJ reserved rv-6a wiring --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com>
Subject: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ?
Date: Mar 26, 2001
Ultracapacitors are fairly widely used in electronic applications such as providing backup power in handheld devices like cellphones during battery changes. As an electric storage medium, they are quite expensive, on the order of $1 or more in the teensy sizes needed to keep up cellphone memories for a minute or two. Unless there has been an immense breakthrough in production costs, I suspect that an ultracap big enough for engine starting would be a very expensive way to save a few pounds in your aircraft. You would probably be better off switching some structural parts to carbon fiber or titanium as far as cost is concerned. > -----Original Message----- > From: Vaso(at)Bovan.com [mailto:vaso(at)bovan.com] > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 1:06 AM > To: Aeroelectric-List > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? > > > > > Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to > supplement batteries. > See for instance > http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.htm > . See also > http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.h > tm. These > capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller > batteries in > aircraft. The Glastar, for instance, is often nose-heavy. Perhaps an > ultracapacitor can be put ahead of the firewall with short > cables to the > starter. The battery could be placed in the tailcone with > lessened concern > about the voltage drop from battery to starter. > > Any comments on this scheme ? > > > -Vaso Bovan > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Tach output w/ dual MSD modules
Date: Mar 26, 2001
This may take longer to word than to figure out, so here goes. I've got a 3.8L Ford with dual MSD ignition modules. Each module has a output to the tach. When the ignition is in the "Both" position each module will be sending a signal for the tach. My original concern was the tach would read double the RPM. At first I thought I'd run each of the outputs to a pole on a DPST switch, then one wire to the tach and just "pick" one of the modules to monitor when the ignition is in the "Both" position. When only one module is in use (like in cruise or on the ground) the switch could be flipped to monitor the appropriate module. Does this sound like I'm on the right track or should I be more concerned in another direction? Also, I'm unable to print the PDF file on the homepage the new OV unit. I keep getting an I/O error. Any suggestions? Love the 'lectric list, Dave Goff Thorp S-18 builder dgoff(at)megasystem.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kevin Lane" <n3773(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: trim switches
Date: Mar 26, 2001
OK, I'll aire some embarrassing facts with the idea that you guys might not make the same mistake. The electric trim on my RV was just about unusable(way too sensitive) until I installed the governor module. I don't remember specifics, but there is a lead coming from the module that I didn't need. Apparently, I never taped over the end of this wire even though it wasn't being used (one of those, "I could have sworn..."). I mounted the governor between the floor ribs near the stick, since I have a grip-mounted trim switch. After the last annual (I was checking the PTT & trim wiring that exits the stick and sees lots of movement) I must have moved that extra governor wire to where it would ground out. (obviously I am guilty of the "look but don't see") This caused the trim to operate nose down regardless of the switch position. So, as I kept reversing the switch the trim just kept going further nose down. Technically not runaway trim, but the same result. As I stated before, this wasn't a life threatening situation. The stick pull is pretty strong at 180mph, but when landing it is merely inconvenient. So you pull out the Leatherman, remove the trim cotter, duct tape the tab and fly home. Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: <Windhorn(at)aol.com> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 10:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: trim switches > > Kevin, > > You could help us out a bit here with identifying WHAT unused wire, WHERE it > was located, and WHY you felt you needed to poke around there for abrasions > (not protection?). If unused, was it abraded or simply an uninsulated wire > end (we wouldn't look down on you for that since it has been corrected). It > would help us to understand your viewpoint better. > > I have heard of runaways due to overtightend coolie hat switches, or other > switch failures, and a propensity of the MAC handle switches to be > oversensitive to touch so the unintended trim changes were underway. Seems > to me the most likely (but not only) places for problems is in the sticks and > at the opposite end though I have not heard of any problems at the servo end. > I will have a panel mounted rocker trim switch (hopefully reliable), and > maybe single or dual stick mounted trims yet to be determined. > > Regards, Doug Windhorn, to be N51DW > > > In a message dated 3/25/2001 8:34:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, > n3773(at)earthlink.net writes: > > > I had runaway trim on my RV-6A last year. Turns out an unused wire had gone > > to ground after I had poked around during the annual checking for any > > abrasions. At least with the RV it is not that big a deal to override the > > trim tab, especially if you are willing to reduce your airspeed a bit. > > Making the system more complicated strikes me as fixing a problem that > > doesn't exist. Remember that introducing more switches and interfaces also > > increases the number of failure pieces and combinations. Micro switches > for > > instance, have a lousy track record in my plane. Having flown 800+ hrs so > > far I recommend thinking long and hard about the maintenance aspect of the > > systems you install. Kevin N3773 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 03/24/01
Date: Mar 25, 2001
All good comments - but does anyone know how high the voltage goes if the alternator is turned full on with a fully charged battery? I doubt if it would go over 18 volts as, after all, the alternator puts out max current right after you start with a low battery. I have looked at the waveform on cars - not on an aircraft - and noted that the battery very effectively clips the peak output of the alternator with the peak battery voltage being less than a volt higher than the average. With regard to a battery large enough to use up the gas, that might be a 5 hour ride and the battery would likely have to be huge to guarantee it. Even with just normal avionics on I would guess the load to be as much as 10 amps. Then couple that with the fact that the battery might be low initially and I don't see a way to do it. Most receivers are good for at least 30 volts continuous - I don't know about 12 volt transmitters. Also, remember that there is a momentary alternator-induced "overvoltage" condition every time you turn off a load. The avionics handle that situation all the time. I am just guessing that the "fried" avionics you saw were older design units - I think the new ones are much more robust. Just a guess. I still worry about being up there wishing I were down here and having a perfectly good alternator that I can't use because the overvoltage circuit shorts it out every time I turn it on. If it were at night in IFR conditions the risk of a fried radio would sound pretty inconsequential as most batteries are only good for 15 minutes under those conditions. Somewhere I heard that the FAA requires overvoltage protection for certification. True? ____ From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 03/23/01 How fast can you react? I have seen aircraft radios and instruments permanently fried due to excessive voltage..very costly, due to the lack of a crowbar circuit. Considering the difference of the cost of a crowbar module, and your electrical/electronics equipment..is it worth taking a chance? Good luck! Regards, Vern Smith Gary Casey wrote: > > I would like to get some comments on the "necessity" for overvoltage > protection in the alternator circuit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: trim switches
> >Just an idea on the trim setup, I've heard stories of runaway trim and I >heard that SH recommended a fix for the Glastar where there is an "enable" >button. I thought this was a good idea so I'm going to try it on my kit. I >have Mac grips and servos and I will put a micro push button near the >throttle somewhere which will provide power to the Mac grip(s). When >trimming, my right hand will push the button, and the left hand will work >the trim on the stick grip. This should prevent any chance of runaway trim >and make trimming much more challenging ;<}. Has anyone heard or tried >this? > >Gary K. All of the airplanes bigger than Barons at Raytheon/Beech have this feature. It's usually a switch right under trim switch on the back side of the grip . . . squeeze back switch to enable and thumb the top switch to trim. The one of Infinity grip's switches could be wired to serve an enable function while the actual trimming ops are controlled by top hat. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 03/24/01
Well, if you are determined to see how many volts the radios are good for, I guess you could put a switch in the line that the OV module senses its voltage from. That way, if the OV modules trips, and you can't get on the ground before your battery voltage goes south, and you are willing to risk frying everything that is left, you could disable the OV module and try your luck with the alternator. Now about your comments on the battery clipping the alternator voltage on cars - was this with the internal voltage regulator active, or disabled? Take care, Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing wheel pants) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html > >All good comments - but does anyone know how high the voltage goes if the >alternator is turned full on with a fully charged battery? I doubt if it >would go over 18 volts as, after all, the alternator puts out max current >right after you start with a low battery. I have looked at the waveform on >cars - not on an aircraft - and noted that the battery very effectively >clips the peak output of the alternator with the peak battery voltage being >less than a volt higher than the average. > >With regard to a battery large enough to use up the gas, that might be a 5 >hour ride and the battery would likely have to be huge to guarantee it. >Even with just normal avionics on I would guess the load to be as much as 10 >amps. Then couple that with the fact that the battery might be low >initially and I don't see a way to do it. > >Most receivers are good for at least 30 volts continuous - I don't know >about 12 volt transmitters. Also, remember that there is a momentary >alternator-induced "overvoltage" condition every time you turn off a load. >The avionics handle that situation all the time. I am just guessing that >the "fried" avionics you saw were older design units - I think the new ones >are much more robust. Just a guess. > >I still worry about being up there wishing I were down here and having a >perfectly good alternator that I can't use because the overvoltage circuit >shorts it out every time I turn it on. If it were at night in IFR >conditions the risk of a fried radio would sound pretty inconsequential as >most batteries are only good for 15 minutes under those conditions. > >Somewhere I heard that the FAA requires overvoltage protection for >certification. True? > > >____ >From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - >03/23/01 > > >How fast can you react? I have seen aircraft radios and instruments >permanently >fried due to excessive voltage..very costly, due to the lack of a crowbar >circuit. Considering the difference of the cost of a crowbar module, and >your >electrical/electronics equipment..is it worth taking a chance? Good luck! >Regards, Vern Smith > >Gary Casey wrote: > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Tach output w/ dual MSD modules
> > This may take longer to word than to figure out, so here goes. >I've got a 3.8L Ford with dual MSD ignition modules. Each module has a >output to the tach. When the ignition is in the "Both" position each >module will be sending a signal for the tach. My original concern was >the tach would read double the RPM. At first I thought I'd run each of >the outputs to a pole on a DPST switch, then one wire to the tach and >just "pick" one of the modules to monitor when the ignition is in the >"Both" position. When only one module is in use (like in cruise or on >the ground) the switch could be flipped to monitor the appropriate >module. Does this sound like I'm on the right track or should I be more >concerned in another direction? > > Also, I'm unable to print the PDF file on the homepage the new OV >unit. I keep getting an I/O error. Any suggestions? > >Love the 'lectric list, > >Dave Goff Thorp S-18 builder >dgoff(at)megasystem.com There are a variety of ignition schemes out there and about as many electronic tachs to go with them. Depending on the input and signal processing techniques used in the tachometer, it may detect the timing signal of two slightly mis-timed ignitions and deduce that the engine is running at 2x speed. Why bother with driving both ignition signals into the tach? A tachometer is not absolutely necessary for comfortable completion of flight. If your particular tach doesn't like one of the ignition systems or can't deal with a mixture of signals from both ignitions, just hook up to the best one and keep on truck'n IF THAT ignition goes belly up (an unlikely event) the loss of tach signal doesn't present a hazard body or hardware so I wouldn't spend any time trying to make it work with both. Are you having trouble with all the .pdf files or just that particular one? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs -
03/21/01 > >I'm trying to figure out the PTT for my Infinity stick grip. Should I run a >wire from the mic plug the switch, then the other end to metal frame ground? >(I'm building an RV8A.) Or, should I run a second wire back from the switch >to the mic plug and ground at the plug? (The shielding from the 2 conductor >mic wire is attached to the inner ring and the plug is electrically isolated >from the metal frame.) >Should the PTT wire be shielded? >Thanks! The chances of injecting noise into the mic circuit of the transmitter from the PTT line is pretty small but I think I'd use a twisted pair of 22AWG from the stick mounted PTT button to the sleeve and tip terminals of the pilot's mic jack. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 03/24/01
Date: Mar 26, 2001
Some comments inserted. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (systems install) Vienna, VA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 03/24/01 All good comments - but does anyone know how high the voltage goes if the alternator is turned full on with a fully charged battery? I doubt if it would go over 18 volts as, after all, the alternator puts out max current right after you start with a low battery. An alternator's maximum terminal voltage is different than an alternators terminal voltage at maximum current. All generators have a real and reactive power curve. Greatly simplifying, an alternator can have a much higher terminal voltage at no load conditions than when under load. As previously discussed, with a failed voltage regulator the battery will limit system voltage by presenting a load to the alternator. As this load is beyond that needed to charge the battery, the excess power is used to turn battery water into H2 and O2 gas, plus a significant amount of heat. Once the battery is "dry", the alternator no longer has a limit to it's terminal voltage, topping out at some high value specific to the construction of the alternator. I have looked at the waveform on cars - not on an aircraft - and noted that the battery very effectively clips the peak output of the alternator with the peak battery voltage being less than a volt higher than the average. With regard to a battery large enough to use up the gas, that might be a 5 hour ride and the battery would likely have to be huge to guarantee it. Even with just normal avionics on I would guess the load to be as much as 10 Assuming no pitot heat and you shed unnecessary loads (landing lights, etc.), constant load is more like 3-5 amps for a typical RV type panel. amps. Then couple that with the fact that the battery might be low initially and I don't see a way to do it. Most receivers are good for at least 30 volts continuous - I don't know about 12 volt transmitters. Also, remember that there is a momentary alternator-induced "overvoltage" condition every time you turn off a load. The avionics handle that situation all the time. I am just guessing that the "fried" avionics you saw were older design units - I think the new ones are much more robust. Just a guess. If the unit has not been tested at abnormal voltages (as documented with the unit), I don't recommend doing experiments in the plane, while flying, under casualty conditions. I still worry about being up there wishing I were down here and having a perfectly good alternator that I can't use because the overvoltage circuit shorts it out every time I turn it on. If it were at night in IFR conditions the risk of a fried radio would sound pretty inconsequential as most batteries are only good for 15 minutes under those conditions. The April issue of "Flying" has a story titled "Heart of Darkness". The article is about how a Cessna twin had a single point failure in his electrical system that very rapidly left the pilot with no electrical power. Recommended reading as there are many lesson's learned. If you think your electrical system design will leave you with only 15 minutes of continued flight under IFR conditions following a single point electrical failure, then I recommend you never fly under IFR conditions. If you want an IFR plane, design the electrical and avionic systems such that you can continue IFR flight following the most severe single point electrical failure. This is how I ended up with two physically separate 17AH batteries, ignition busses and vital busses. The alternator, one battery, one vital bus and one ignition bus can go up in vapor and the plane will still have what it needs to make the next airport. Somewhere I heard that the FAA requires overvoltage protection for certification. True? ____ From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 03/23/01 How fast can you react? I have seen aircraft radios and instruments permanently fried due to excessive voltage..very costly, due to the lack of a crowbar circuit. Considering the difference of the cost of a crowbar module, and your electrical/electronics equipment..is it worth taking a chance? Good luck! Regards, Vern Smith Gary Casey wrote: > > I would like to get some comments on the "necessity" for overvoltage > protection in the alternator circuit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How high will it go?
>All good comments - but does anyone know how high the voltage goes if the >alternator is turned full on with a fully charged battery? I doubt if it >would go over 18 volts as, after all, the alternator puts out max current >right after you start with a low battery. I have looked at the waveform on >cars - not on an aircraft - and noted that the battery very effectively >clips the peak output of the alternator with the peak battery voltage being >less than a volt higher than the average. Keep in mind that field voltage comes from the BUS. If the regulator fails, then the field is tied to the bus via shorted or turned ON devices in the regulator. A bus voltage climbs after regulator failure then the field voltage climbs with it . . . it's regenerative. The only physical limits to rate of rise are how much the battery can soak up from a 40 - 75 amp constant current source. About 40 years ago as alternators were first showing up on production automobiles (you could buy an aftermarket alternator as early as 1952), somebody discovered the wilingness of these new machines to generate considerable voltage. One enterprising experimenter wrote an article in some popular-electrics type magazine for modifying your automotive alternator to produce usable amounts of power to run things like drill motors and circular saws. You disconnect the b-lead from the car's bus and run it to an outlet jack to fit your favorite power tool. You put a voltmeter on the jack to see how much voltage was there. When the engine was started, the regulator saw low bus volts and basically turned on hard . . . a fixed battery voltage on the field. The operator would then pull out on a throttle control until engine RPMs were high enough for about 90 volts to show on the voltmeter. While most power tools are 120 VAC, they are series wound motors that run more efficiently on DC . . . so you could get satisfactory performance on 90-100 VDC. I went to work for Electro-Mech here in Wichita the first time about 1972. They were just in the task of doing a recall on several hundred kits they had sold to various jobbers to install this outback-handyman's electric power source on their cars. It seems that diodes on several makes of alternators objected vociferously about 90-volt floggings. Instead of filing with the semiconductor rights commission for regulatory relief, they simply shorted out. My new boss was faced with having to replace lots of dead alternators in the cars of angry customers and decided that the original article, while novel, wasn't commercially practical. Keep in mind that this application was able to coax 90+ volts out of a machine with 12 volts of field. Suppose you let the field climb with the alternator's output instead of being limited to 12 volts. Make no mistake about it my friend. A runaway alternator is a electro-flame throwing beast. >With regard to a battery large enough to use up the gas, that might be a 5 >hour ride and the battery would likely have to be huge to guarantee it. >Even with just normal avionics on I would guess the load to be as much as 10 >amps. Then couple that with the fact that the battery might be low >initially and I don't see a way to do it. Why would you want to run everything but the kitchen sink if the alternator is belly up? How much stuff do you really NEED to get you to airport-in-sight at intended destination? If you can't get there on a 3-4 amp load, you're not trying very hard. With a little judicious planning and battery maintenance, you can punch through the clouds at departure, crap an alternator, fly to intended destination and still have enough snort in a 17 a.h. battery to fire up the landing light when you get there. >Most receivers are good for at least 30 volts continuous - I don't know >about 12 volt transmitters. Also, remember that there is a momentary >alternator-induced "overvoltage" condition every time you turn off a load. >The avionics handle that situation all the time. I am just guessing that >the "fried" avionics you saw were older design units - I think the new ones >are much more robust. Just a guess. You can get TSO on a 14 volt radio after showing sustained operation at 16 volts, 1 second of operation at 20 volts no damage after exposure to 100 milliseconds at 40 volts. Some new radios are 14/28v capable meaning they go up to 32v sustained . . . but not all radios do this nor are they required to. There are perturbations to bus voltage any time the loads or RPMS are changed. These are NORMAL conditions well within the safe operating range of all electro-goodies aboard. They are on the order of 1-2 volt bumps lasting a few milliseconds. Just took some traces off a new Bonanza a few days ago checking for load dump stability when landing lights, taxi light, and A/C were all turned off simultaneously with the engine up about 2200 rpm. The "bump" was scarcely visible on the data trace - well under half a volt. It lasted for about 10 milliseconds. An OVERVOLTAGE condition has to stay above 16-16.5 volts for several hundred milliseconds . . . the ONLY thing that will support the bus to this amplitude for this duration is an alternator with poor or non-existent regulator. >I still worry about being up there wishing I were down here and having a >perfectly good alternator that I can't use because the overvoltage circuit >shorts it out every time I turn it on. If it were at night in IFR >conditions the risk of a fried radio would sound pretty inconsequential as >most batteries are only good for 15 minutes under those conditions. In a spam can, you betcha . . . they're not designed to allow a pilot many options with respect to alternator-out operations. We're better than certified in all respects . . . including electrical system architecture and planning for rare emergencies (cause unlike the certified junk on a spam can, our alternators typically run several TBO's on the engine before needing attention). See chapter 17 in the AeroElectric Connection for all the details. If you use an RG battery, an Nipon-Dienso alternator and a modern OV protection system like that illustrated on our website, and you architecture your system with "Plan B" options . . . your chances of breaking a sweat under threat of the dreaded "black panel syndrome" are nil. There is no reason for an owner built and maintained airplane to suffer an electrical emergency. >Somewhere I heard that the FAA requires overvoltage protection for >certification. True? For about the last 30 years or so . . . yes. I was a designer for Electro-Mech here in Wichita in the 70's and OV relays was one of my tasks. When I left them for the second time about 1983, we were delivering serial numbers in the 20,000 range on several different OV relay products - NONE of them were modern crowbar systems. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Breaker rating question (SD8 Alternator)
> >Bob, > >I am installing B&C's SD8 alternator using pertinent portions of your >Figure Z-8 (04/00) wiring diagram. On this drawing it shows a 5 Amp rated breaker. > >On B&C's instructions (DWG No. 420-501 Rev B dated 4/25/95) >it shows a 10Amp breaker. I will use 12 AWG wire. Which is correct? The 10A breaker in the B&C drawing has been replaced with a fusible link at the battery contactor on my drawing. The 5A breaker is aprt of the ov-protection and alternator control system that is NEW and not shown on the B&C drawing. Ignore the B&C drawing and wire per the details shown in Figure Z-8. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ?
> >Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to supplement batteries. >See for instance >http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.htm. See also >http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.htm. These >capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller batteries in >aircraft. The Glastar, for instance, is often nose-heavy. Perhaps an >ultracapacitor can be put ahead of the firewall with short cables to the >starter. The battery could be placed in the tailcone with lessened concern >about the voltage drop from battery to starter. > >Any comments on this scheme ? > > >-Vaso Bovan Pretty slick . . . but they look to be a lot heavier in terms of watt-seconds per pound. To be practical in an airplane, I think you'd have to count on one of two engine driven power sources being available and then sizing the ultra-cap for perhaps 1.5 chances to crank the engine. You could use very small . . . like perhaps a 3-8 a.h. battery to charge the capacitor. I didn't see any pricing on these . . . do you know anyone that's using them in an engine cranking aplication? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark A. Naig" <mark_a_naig(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Enjoyed Class
Date: Mar 26, 2001
Dear Bob, I wanted to thank you for the class in Fort Worth, Texas. I really got a lot out of the Saturday session. I just wish my migraine headache had not kept me home bound on Sunday. I was hoping to challenge your electrical design muscles with these requirements. 1. Two landing lights with high beam low beam. One on right side, one on left side. 2. Individual switch for each landing light. Where bottom = OFF, Middle position is LOW, and Top position is High. 3. LED indicator lights YELLOW for LOW, GREEN for HIGH. With dimmer control. 4. Separate Wig-Wag switch. Thanks again for the class. Sincerely, Mark A. Naig Researching which Zenith to build CH-601 XL or CH-801? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Windhorn(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 27, 2001
Subject: Re: trim switches
Kevin, Thanks for sharing you experience. Hope it wasn't too embarassing. But consider this. I have in instrument in my panel currently under construction that will have a couple unused wires. As they are insulated their full length, I was simply going to bundle them with the other wires from the instrument and let them terminate within the bundle. That would probably work, but I never thought about the end getting out, making ground, and causing something wierd to happen, just was going to do it for aesthetics. Now, I will be sure to double over the end and apply shrink tubing over the double-back area. Regards, Doug Windhorn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "emjones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 03/26/01
Date: Mar 27, 2001
Don, There have been huge advancements in this area. Check the Mallory website that Vaso Bovan cites. Ideally new battery technology allows not only distributed battery arrangements, but the use of ultracaps allows very small wires between them (and to the starter). Since the ultracap is on or very close to the starter terminals the resistance drop can be very small. The battery can be in the tail with (perhaps) 18g wire to the engine (in the front...where God says engines are supposed to be.) For perspective--they now use ultracaps to start diesel truck engines. They are especially good in very cold temps (where batteries have problems). Generally engines start much easier, the ultracaps last FOREVER, and they make the batteries last 2X too. This is not future tech! There are products for sale today. An additional HUGE advantage for us airplane builders is that the battery size can be 1/2 as big. > From: Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? > > > Ultracapacitors are fairly widely used in electronic applications such as > providing backup power in handheld devices like cellphones during battery > changes. > > As an electric storage medium, they are quite expensive, on the order of $1 > or more in the teensy sizes needed to keep up cellphone memories for a > minute or two. > > Unless there has been an immense breakthrough in production costs, I suspect > that an ultracap big enough for engine starting would be a very expensive > way to save a few pounds in your aircraft. You would probably be better off > switching some structural parts to carbon fiber or titanium as far as cost > is concerned. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vaso(at)Bovan.com [mailto:vaso(at)bovan.com] > > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 1:06 AM > > To: Aeroelectric-List > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? > > > > > > > > > > Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to > > supplement batteries. > > See for instance > > http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.htm > > . See also > > http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.h > > tm. These > > capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller > > batteries in > > aircraft. The Glastar, for instance, is often nose-heavy. Perhaps an > > ultracapacitor can be put ahead of the firewall with short > > cables to the > > starter. The battery could be placed in the tailcone with > > lessened concern > > about the voltage drop from battery to starter. > > Any comments on this scheme ? > > -Vaso Bovan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Safest battery location
Bob, I posted this 10 days ago, but didn't see any replies. I'm reposting it. Charlie Kuss Charlie Kuss wrote: > > Bob, > I've been reading the "batteries and fuel" thread with interest. I'm building an RV-8A with a > parallel valve Lycoming 360 and a constant speed prop. Some builder feel that the low speed > (approach to landing) handling of this ship is better with the battery located in the baggage > compartment rather than on the firewall. > I noted someone mentioned earlier that batteries are a major cause of after crash fires. Which of > these two locations (firewall / baggage compartment) do you feel offers better safety in a > crash/post crash situation? > Charlie Kuss > RV-8A fuselage Alodining parts > Boca Raton, Fl. (corrosion capital of the world) > > "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Re: Tach output w/ dual MSD modules
Date: Mar 27, 2001
I'm only having trouble with that one from your home page. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 8:00 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tach output w/ dual MSD modules > > > > > > This may take longer to word than to figure out, so here goes. > >I've got a 3.8L Ford with dual MSD ignition modules. Each module has a > >output to the tach. When the ignition is in the "Both" position each > >module will be sending a signal for the tach. My original concern was > >the tach would read double the RPM. At first I thought I'd run each of > >the outputs to a pole on a DPST switch, then one wire to the tach and > >just "pick" one of the modules to monitor when the ignition is in the > >"Both" position. When only one module is in use (like in cruise or on > >the ground) the switch could be flipped to monitor the appropriate > >module. Does this sound like I'm on the right track or should I be more > >concerned in another direction? > > > > Also, I'm unable to print the PDF file on the homepage the new OV > >unit. I keep getting an I/O error. Any suggestions? > > > >Love the 'lectric list, > > > >Dave Goff Thorp S-18 builder > >dgoff(at)megasystem.com > > > There are a variety of ignition schemes out there and about > as many electronic tachs to go with them. Depending on the > input and signal processing techniques used in the tachometer, > it may detect the timing signal of two slightly mis-timed > ignitions and deduce that the engine is running at 2x speed. > > Why bother with driving both ignition signals into the tach? > A tachometer is not absolutely necessary for comfortable completion > of flight. If your particular tach doesn't like one of the > ignition systems or can't deal with a mixture of signals > from both ignitions, just hook up to the best one and keep > on truck'n > > IF THAT ignition goes belly up (an unlikely event) > the loss of tach signal doesn't present a hazard body or > hardware so I wouldn't spend any time trying to make it > work with both. > > Are you having trouble with all the .pdf files or just > that particular one? > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Huft" <iflygood(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How high will it go?
Date: Mar 27, 2001
In regard to your concern about having a "perfectly good alternator, unable to use it because of the overvoltage protection", I thought I would relate a story. I once rented a C-182 for a trip (Denver to MIdland TX). The overvoltage relay operated after a hour or so. I soon fell into a system of waiting until the battery had discharged, then reseting the alternator. It would work until the battery was overcharged, the trip again. I would wait 15 minutes or so, then reset. I left the radios on, because weather was iffy, and I ended up in a dust storm in texas. This system worked to Midland, and when the FBO I had rented the airplane from had a fit about paying another shop for service, I flew it back to Denver the same way. John >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: How high will it go? >Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:22:04 -0600 > > > > > >All good comments - but does anyone know how high the voltage goes if the > >alternator is turned full on with a fully charged battery? I doubt if it > >would go over 18 volts as, after all, the alternator puts out max current > >right after you start with a low battery. I have looked at the waveform >on > >cars - not on an aircraft - and noted that the battery very effectively > >clips the peak output of the alternator with the peak battery voltage >being > >less than a volt higher than the average. > > Keep in mind that field voltage comes from the BUS. If the > regulator fails, then the field is tied to the bus via shorted > or turned ON devices in the regulator. > > A bus voltage climbs after regulator failure then the field > voltage climbs with it . . . it's regenerative. The only physical > limits to rate of rise are how much the battery can soak > up from a 40 - 75 amp constant current source. > > About 40 years ago as alternators were first showing up on > production automobiles (you could buy an aftermarket alternator > as early as 1952), somebody discovered the wilingness of these > new machines to generate considerable voltage. One enterprising > experimenter wrote an article in some popular-electrics type > magazine for modifying your automotive alternator to produce > usable amounts of power to run things like drill motors and circular > saws. > > You disconnect the b-lead from the car's bus and run it to an > outlet jack to fit your favorite power tool. You put a voltmeter > on the jack to see how much voltage was there. When the engine > was started, the regulator saw low bus volts and basically > turned on hard . . . a fixed battery voltage on the field. > The operator would then pull out on a throttle control until > engine RPMs were high enough for about 90 volts to show on > the voltmeter. > > While most power tools are 120 VAC, they are series wound > motors that run more efficiently on DC . . . so you could > get satisfactory performance on 90-100 VDC. I went to > work for Electro-Mech here in Wichita the first time about > 1972. They were just in the task of doing a recall on several > hundred kits they had sold to various jobbers to install > this outback-handyman's electric power source on their > cars. It seems that diodes on several makes of alternators > objected vociferously about 90-volt floggings. Instead > of filing with the semiconductor rights commission for > regulatory relief, they simply shorted out. > > My new boss was faced with having to replace lots of > dead alternators in the cars of angry customers and decided > that the original article, while novel, wasn't commercially > practical. > > Keep in mind that this application was able to coax 90+ > volts out of a machine with 12 volts of field. Suppose you > let the field climb with the alternator's output instead > of being limited to 12 volts. > > Make no mistake about it my friend. A runaway alternator > is a electro-flame throwing beast. > > > >With regard to a battery large enough to use up the gas, that might be a >5 > >hour ride and the battery would likely have to be huge to guarantee it. > >Even with just normal avionics on I would guess the load to be as much as >10 > >amps. Then couple that with the fact that the battery might be low > >initially and I don't see a way to do it. > > Why would you want to run everything but the kitchen sink > if the alternator is belly up? How much stuff do you really > NEED to get you to airport-in-sight at intended destination? > If you can't get there on a 3-4 amp load, you're not trying > very hard. With a little judicious planning and battery > maintenance, you can punch through the clouds at departure, > crap an alternator, fly to intended destination and still have > enough snort in a 17 a.h. battery to fire up the landing > light when you get there. > > >Most receivers are good for at least 30 volts continuous - I don't know > >about 12 volt transmitters. Also, remember that there is a momentary > >alternator-induced "overvoltage" condition every time you turn off a >load. > >The avionics handle that situation all the time. I am just guessing that > >the "fried" avionics you saw were older design units - I think the new >ones > >are much more robust. Just a guess. > > You can get TSO on a 14 volt radio after showing sustained > operation at 16 volts, 1 second of operation at 20 volts > no damage after exposure to 100 milliseconds at 40 volts. > Some new radios are 14/28v capable meaning they go up to > 32v sustained . . . but not all radios do this nor are they > required to. > > There are perturbations to bus voltage any time the loads > or RPMS are changed. These are NORMAL conditions well within > the safe operating range of all electro-goodies aboard. They > are on the order of 1-2 volt bumps lasting a few milliseconds. > Just took some traces off a new Bonanza a few days ago checking > for load dump stability when landing lights, taxi light, and > A/C were all turned off simultaneously with the engine up > about 2200 rpm. The "bump" was scarcely visible on the data trace - > well under half a volt. It lasted for about 10 milliseconds. > > An OVERVOLTAGE condition has to stay above 16-16.5 volts for > several hundred milliseconds . . . the ONLY thing that will support > the bus to this amplitude for this duration is an alternator > with poor or non-existent regulator. > > > >I still worry about being up there wishing I were down here and having a > >perfectly good alternator that I can't use because the overvoltage >circuit > >shorts it out every time I turn it on. If it were at night in IFR > >conditions the risk of a fried radio would sound pretty inconsequential >as > >most batteries are only good for 15 minutes under those conditions. > > In a spam can, you betcha . . . they're not designed > to allow a pilot many options with respect to alternator-out > operations. We're better than certified in all respects . . . > including electrical system architecture and planning for > rare emergencies (cause unlike the certified junk on a spam > can, our alternators typically run several TBO's on the > engine before needing attention). See chapter 17 in the > AeroElectric Connection for all the details. > > If you use an RG battery, an Nipon-Dienso alternator > and a modern OV protection system like that illustrated > on our website, and you architecture your system with > "Plan B" options . . . your chances of breaking a sweat > under threat of the dreaded "black panel syndrome" are > nil. > > There is no reason for an owner built and maintained > airplane to suffer an electrical emergency. > > > >Somewhere I heard that the FAA requires overvoltage protection for > >certification. True? > > For about the last 30 years or so . . . yes. I was a designer > for Electro-Mech here in Wichita in the 70's and OV relays > was one of my tasks. When I left them for the second time about > 1983, we were delivering serial numbers in the 20,000 range > on several different OV relay products - NONE of them were > modern crowbar systems. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Alternator
Date: Mar 27, 2001
On my 3.8L Ford I've installed one of the little 55 amp Denso alternators with the built in regulator. I'm interested in removing the built in regulator and installing one of the regular remote Ford voltage regulators. Is there a diagram in one of your many wiring charts that shows how to junk the built in one and wire in the remote one? Thanks, Dave Goff S-18 builder dgoff(at)megasystem.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 03/24/01
Date: Mar 27, 2001
I have run tests with a concord 25AH battery as well as a couple of others, all fully chqarged First if the alternator field gets full power from a failed regulator it only takes a few seconds (under 30) to push the battery/bus voltage to above 20 V (at which point I stopped the test and this was with a 25 amp alternator in a simulated failure mode). The alternator will continue to raise the output voltage until the load takes the full output current. Which is well above when the electrical system is shorted out with high voltage. The voltage will continue increasing well above 150V and eventually short the internal alternator diode array. While rare, this kind of failure has happened. It happened to Bob Hoover a few years ago and all the avionics etc in the commander was toast. Bob was planning an airshow at Arlington but was grounded while the aircraft was being repaired with tens of thousands of damage. While the discussion is interesting its simple to prevent as both Bob and I have documented in various articles. Paul Messinger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Casey Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 03/24/01 All good comments - but does anyone know how high the voltage goes if the alternator is turned full on with a fully charged battery? I doubt if it would go over 18 volts as, after all, the alternator puts out max current right after you start with a low battery. I have looked at the waveform on cars - not on an aircraft - and noted that the battery very effectively clips the peak output of the alternator with the peak battery voltage being less than a volt higher than the average. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV protection
In regard to your concern about having a "perfectly good alternator, unable to use it because of the overvoltage protection", I thought I would relate a story. I once rented a C-182 for a trip (Denver to MIdland TX). The overvoltage relay operated after a hour or so. I soon fell into a system of waiting until the battery had discharged, then reseting the alternator. It would work until the battery was overcharged, the trip again. I would wait 15 minutes or so, then reset. I left the radios on, because weather was iffy, and I ended up in a dust storm in texas. This system worked to Midland, and when the FBO I had rented the airplane from had a fit about paying another shop for service, I flew it back to Denver the same way. John ------------------ ********************* --------------------------- This is a scenario typical of a regulator with a drifting setpoint. The system is technically driving toward an overvoltage condition but just barely. Running the battery down after a trip provides an additional load on the system that tends to keep the ov system from tripping until the battery recharges, total alternator load drops and the bus voltage creeps slowly upward. Adding loads like landing lights and pitot heat can often stop the system from tripping until you've arrived where you need to go. There are hundreds if not thousands of anecdotal stories in aviation that appear to support a variety of notions about training pilots or adding bandaids to an existing system to avoid unplanned arrivals with the earth. The important facts to note in this story are: (1) the electrical system was failed and the ov relay was doing what it was EXPECTED to do . . . (2) the airplane was designed with and mandated to be maintained with components that were designed and originally certified in the 60's . . . the best we knew how to do then. Suppose government said you had to keep putting a single barrel Carter carb on your car when you KNOW that you can achieve superior performance and reliability with electronic controlled fuel injection? (3) it was a certified aircraft mandated by government to be touched only by high-dollar mechanics and repaired with high-dollar parts distributed through a regulated and very restrictive supply system. (4) the pilot was not allowed to drop by the local automotive parts store and pick up a Standard VR-166 regulator for $15 and install it in a few minutes to fix the problem. (5) the airplane's owner was reluctant to have the airplane touched by mechanics he didn't know and probably had a ton of bad past experiences that reinforce this desire. (6) As a result, the pilot was obliged to return home with a failed system so that the airplane could be repaired by the services of choice. Now, consider all of the impediments standing between this pilot and his desire to fly a properly functioning machine. Which of these impediments are hardware, design or regulatory issues? Rather than crafting new emergency procedures and filling the flight bag with more backup hardware wouldn't it be better to DESIGN this problem out of the system? Consider the architecture of the electrical system that forced him into a demonstrably hazardous, higher workload as opposed to: (a) E-bus Alternate Feed Switch - ON (b) Battery Master/Alternator Switch - OFF (c) Continue flight to intended destination. (d) Get out YOUR tools and fix the problem. In fact, certain employees of taxpayers might be obliged to inject a bit of misery into our friend's life should they become aware of his intentional launch for the return trip with a KNOWN failure. I believe we SHOULD draw heavily on our past experiences with aviation as a learning experience. There are many data points providing a foundation on which to build a better system of designing, building, owning and flying airplanes. What many folks don't stop to consider is that many of not MOST of the data from our certified experience are better treated examples of how NOT to do it. Take care lest we doom ourselves to suffer more of the past instead of elevating ourselves to a new and brighter future. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: it was a dark and stormy night . . .
> > >The April issue of "Flying" has a story titled "Heart of Darkness". The >article is about how a Cessna twin had a single point failure in his >electrical system that very rapidly left the pilot with no electrical power. >Recommended reading as there are many lesson's learned. If you think your >electrical system design will leave you with only 15 minutes of continued >flight under IFR conditions following a single point electrical failure, >then I recommend you never fly under IFR conditions. If you want an IFR >plane, design the electrical and avionic systems such that you can continue >IFR flight following the most severe single point electrical failure. This >is how I ended up with two physically separate 17AH batteries, ignition >busses and vital busses. If you think you have a good reason to depart from any of the diagrams I've published, I'd like to know about it. If there are good features I've missed, then we need to add them to the mix of choices offered. If you're unnecessarily complicating your system at the risk of increasing pilot workload, you need to know it. Critical review of new ideas is how we reinforce good ideas and keep bad ideas from going to production. >The alternator, one battery, one vital bus and one >ignition bus can go up in vapor and the plane will still have what it needs >to make the next airport. I can't tell you how many millions of dollars of engineering effort has been put into piling BandAids on the design of electrical systems of airplanes with TWO engines that STILL have single points of failure for the whole system. At the risk of irritating my employer, we build LOTS of two-engine machines where we've missed golden opportunities to ELIMINATE the chances for an electrical emergency. The condition is common to ALL certified aircraft. The up-side of this condition is that it gives aviation journals a continuous flow of what I call the "dark and stormy night" stories to fill out their issues. . . . how many stories do your read about ANY OTHER KIND of system failure in these magazines? If we were encouraged and allowed to do our duty as designers, those pages would have to be filled with something else . . . maybe an advertisement for a knee-board with built in reading light, GPS receiver and MP3 player? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Panel switches
> >All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them >that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch >from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other >that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the >switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? There have been several good responses to this query. The When this topic popped up, I was reminded of an issue of "shop notes" I'd started and needed to finish. I've done so and you can view it at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switchmounting/switchmounting.html Matt Dralle tells me the AeroElectric-List is now monitored by about 450 folks. This is very pleasant news. Thank you all for your participation and support. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Van Artsdalen, Scott" <svanarts(at)unionsafe.com>
Subject: Panel switches
Date: Mar 27, 2001
Another alternative I wish I had known about before I drilled my holes for my switches: Greenlee makes a knockout punch that forms a tab in the hole that fits the notch in the switches Bob (B&C) sells. If you use this punch to make your holes, then you can use any old washer. I can retrace my steps and locate the part number if someone can supply me with the measurements of the threaded portion of the switches. -- Scott VanArtsdalen, MCSE, CCNA Network Administrator Union Safe Deposit Bank 209-946-5116 -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:16 AM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel switches Nuckolls, III" > >All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them >that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch >from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other >that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the >switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? There have been several good responses to this query. The When this topic popped up, I was reminded of an issue of "shop notes" I'd started and needed to finish. I've done so and you can view it at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switchmounting/switchmounting.html Matt Dralle tells me the AeroElectric-List is now monitored by about 450 folks. This is very pleasant news. Thank you all for your participation and support. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com through http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Panel switches
A/N switches are 15/32"-32 in diameter, therefore a 1/2" punch will do the job..regards, Vern Smith "Van Artsdalen, Scott" wrote: > > Another alternative I wish I had known about before I drilled my holes for > my switches: Greenlee makes a knockout punch that forms a tab in the hole > that fits the notch in the switches Bob (B&C) sells. If you use this punch > to make your holes, then you can use any old washer. I can retrace my steps > and locate the part number if someone can supply me with the measurements of > the threaded portion of the switches. > > -- > Scott VanArtsdalen, MCSE, CCNA > Network Administrator > Union Safe Deposit Bank > 209-946-5116 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III > [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:16 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel switches > > Nuckolls, III" > > > > > >All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 > degree tab on them > >that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to > keep the switch > >from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each > switch. Other > >that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a > way to keep the > >switches from turning without drilling the little slot > hole? > > There have been several good responses to this query. > The When this topic popped up, I was reminded of an > issue of "shop notes" I'd started and needed to finish. > I've done so and you can view it at: > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switchmounting/switchmounting.html > > Matt Dralle tells me the AeroElectric-List is now > monitored > by about 450 folks. This is very pleasant news. Thank you > all > for your participation and support. > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > > through > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 27, 2001
Subject: Re: Panel switches
In a message dated 3/27/01 11:51:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, svanarts(at)unionsafe.com writes: > Another alternative I wish I had known about before I drilled my holes for > my switches: Greenlee makes a knockout punch that forms a tab in the hole > that fits the notch in the switches Bob (B&C) sells. If you use this punch > to make your holes, then you can use any old washer. I can retrace my steps > and locate the part number if someone can supply me with the measurements of > the threaded portion of the switches. > > -- I glued the tabbed washer on the back of the panel with epoxy, that seems to work pretty good too. Kevin Shannon -9A 994KS reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
From: W4PPN(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 27, 2001
Subject: Re: Panel switches
Here is a web address for Greenlee Punches. About midway down the page you will find "keyed" punches. < http://www.greenlee.textron.com/download/archive/gfl-02-13.pdf > You have to have Adobe Acrobat reader to be able to read the catalog pages. Howard Cochran Mooresville, NC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Van Artsdalen, Scott" <svanarts(at)unionsafe.com>
Subject: Panel switches
Date: Mar 27, 2001
Those are the ones I was thinking of. Might be nice for some EAA local chapters to have for their tool box. -- Scott VanArtsdalen, MCSE, CCNA Network Administrator Union Safe Deposit Bank 209-946-5116 -----Original Message----- From: W4PPN(at)aol.com [mailto:W4PPN(at)aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 5:07 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel switches Here is a web address for Greenlee Punches. About midway down the page you will find "keyed" punches. < http://www.greenlee.textron.com/download/archive/gfl-02-13.pdf > You have to have Adobe Acrobat reader to be able to read the catalog pages. Howard Cochran Mooresville, NC through http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator
Date: Mar 28, 2001
I dont't understand the avantage to do that, i've the same installation plus a built-in solenoide, should I remove that too? Daniel 601 hds w\soob >From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: "AeroElectric" >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:17:41 -0500 > > >On my 3.8L Ford I've installed one of the little 55 amp Denso >alternators with the built in regulator. I'm interested in removing the >built in regulator and installing one of the regular remote Ford voltage >regulators. Is there a diagram in one of your many wiring charts that >shows how to junk the built in one and wire in the remote one? > >Thanks, > >Dave Goff S-18 builder >dgoff(at)megasystem.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator
> >On my 3.8L Ford I've installed one of the little 55 amp Denso >alternators with the built in regulator. I'm interested in removing the >built in regulator and installing one of the regular remote Ford voltage >regulators. Is there a diagram in one of your many wiring charts that >shows how to junk the built in one and wire in the remote one? > >Thanks, No, they're all a little different. Have you considered having an alternator shop do the mod for you . . . or even leaving the built-in regulator in and adding external ov protection? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Panel switches
Date: Mar 27, 2001
> >All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them > >that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch > >from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other > >that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the > >switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? > > There have been several good responses to this query. > The When this topic popped up, I was reminded of an > issue of "shop notes" I'd started and needed to finish. > I've done so and you can view it at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switchmounting/switchmounting.html > All good responses indeed. I'll add another possibility. If one is reasonably proficient at Autocad or some other cad program, consider handing a CAD file and your panel to a laser cutting company. Each switch hole has the anti-rotation tab, which eliminates the need for the tabbed washer. The laser company cut my panel for $135 total. I wouldn't consider any other way, but it does require a clean CAD file. Laser cutting is quite common now, and most metro areas, I suspect, have one or more shops. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A ------ http://USFamily.Net/info - Unlimited Internet - From $8.99/mo! ------ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 27, 2001
From: Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: OV protection requirement
A better answer to the question "Is OV protection required in certified aircraft?" might be: Part 23.1351(c)(5) states: "Each generator/alternator must have an overvoltage control designed and installed to prevent damage to the electrical system, or the equipment supplied by the electrical system that could result if that generator/alternator were to develop an overvoltage condition." So, now you know. Bill Irvine C-310 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com>
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Subject: Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Version 2.0 of the Experimental Panel Builder is up and running. The response to Version 1.0 was almost overwhelming and we received many requests for additional panels and instruments. We've tried to accommodate as many as possible but if we've missed something please let us know by clicking on the "Request New Panels" or "Request New Instruments" link. After we published version 1.0 fellow RV List member, RV-8 Builder (soon to be RV-7 builder) and web master extraordinaire, Jared Boone (Portland, OR) offered us some suggestions on how we could make things work a little better. I had some discussions with Jared via email and even tossed back a brewski or two with him on a recent visit to Portland. Jared took time out of his busy work schedule (guess what he does for a living) and helped turn out the version of code that you see here. Truly remarkable and Bill and I owe him a lot of thanks. So what's new? First, you can now save your work. Yes, that's right. After creating a panel, all you have to do is log out or go to another web page. The next time you log in you're panel will still be right there were you left off. Neat. Space saving organization. Drop down menu's allow you to select the panel you're interested and the category of instruments your interested in working on. This saves space and makes creating panels easier. Duplicate items. Now you can drag as many items onto the panel as you like. Just keep dragging them up there. You want lots of circuit breaker and switches. Just keep dragging them up. If you don't like an instrument then just drag it off the panel and it goes away. Don't like any of your work and want to start over? Just hit the reset button. Because of all the code changes, the time it takes for the initial page to load has been greatly reduced because it doesn't have to load all the images at once. After the last version was published we received a ton or requests for additional panels and equipment. This is where Bill Vondane came to the rescue. Bill jumped into action and developed no less than 20, yes 20, new panels and added many more instruments. After Jared modified the code to make the new changes possible, Bill had to add all the new data, and modify things to get it published. Bill also created the user interface and "Tips" page to help makes things a little clearer. Bill and Jared have graciously donated LOTS of time and effort to bring this tool to it's present state. Remember, these guys both have planes to build and busy jobs and families to take care of. Enjoy the updated version and let us know what you think. Alas, there is a downside. For all those Microsoft haters out there, this new version is even LESS Netscape friendly than the pervious version. At this time, due to the methods used to create some of the features, ONLY Internet Explore 5.5 can be used to access the new features. Jared is working on making it compatible with earlier versions of Internet Explorer so until that time, the earlier version 1.0 is still available to use. We're talking about developing some techniques that will allow ALL browsers to work but that's still a ways off as time and energy permits. Check it out. http://sonexlinks.com/panelbuilder/ or link to it from my page http://bmnellis.com or Bills page http://vondane.com/rv8a Guess what? It's still free! What a country. Mike Nellis Stinson 108-2 N9666K RV-6 N699BM (reserved) Plainfield, IL (LOT) http://bmnellis.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 03/25/01
Date: Mar 26, 2001
Don't mean to use up bandwidth, but felt the need to jump in here. My Cessna with a S-TEC 60-2 autopilot had a very simple electric pitch system that was fault tolerant. Instead of the single DPDT switch usually shown on schematics I have seen they used two separate SPDT switches placed right next to each other. You had to move BOTH levers simultaneously to produce a trim movement. As each wire from the trim motor was connected to the common terminal of a switch there was no single wire that could be shorted to either power or ground that could produce a trim movement. This was true of wires upstream or downstream of the switch. If a switch stuck in one position the movement would still stop when the other switch returned to neutral. All conceivable single failure modes resulted in either no trim or in a blown breaker. What's wrong with that? Just an idea on the trim setup, I've heard stories of runaway trim and I heard that SH recommended a fix for the Glastar where there is an "enable" button. I had runaway trim on my RV-6A last year. Turns out an unused wire had gone to ground after I had poked around during the annual checking for any abrasions. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 03/26/01
Date: Mar 27, 2001
The ignition modules almost certainly put out a 12 volt square wave signal to the tach. since both modules are timed the same the signals are synchronized with each other. Just put a diode in each signal line pointed toward the tach (the bar on the diode toward the tach)and the tach will work when either or both modules are powered. You could use almost any reasonable diode like a 4001 or 4002. I haven't tried it, but I'll bet it will work. This may take longer to word than to figure out, so here goes. I've got a 3.8L Ford with dual MSD ignition modules. Each module has a output to the tach. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 03/26/01
Date: Mar 27, 2001
When I looked at the voltage trace it was with the voltage regulator active. But the voltage regulator only modulates the current in the field, which in turn modulates the current in the stator, not the clipping voltage. Certainly as the stator current increases the clipping voltage will increase because of the resistance in the battery. One way to estimate the battery resistance is to see what the voltage is during cranking. A healthy battery might drop from 12.5 volts to maybe 10 volts with a 150-amp cranking load, giving a calculated battery resistance of .016 ohms. A 50-amp charging current will then raise the battery voltage from maybe 13 (some hysteresis) to about 14. Therefore, with a full-charging alternator I would expect to see about 14 volts at the peaks of the battery voltage trace. The numbers above are pure estimates. Now about your comments on the battery clipping the alternator voltage on cars - was this with the internal voltage regulator active, or disabled? Take care, Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing wheel pants) Ottawa, Canada http://eccentrix.com/misc/rv8/rv8.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro(at)erols.com>
Subject: RE: it was a dark and stormy night . . .
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Bob, I was remiss in not providing the details as to how I came up with this electrical arrangement, thus leading you to the conclusion I was adding unnecessary complexity. I knew from the start that my plane would have dual electronic ignitions and an all electric panel. I considered the pros and cons between arrangements of two alternators/one battery, one alternator/one standard battery/one small ignition backup battery, and two smaller identical batteries. Considering the whole system, I decided maximum reliability while maintaining a relatively simple system was provided by two 17AH Odyssey batteries. The final system does require two battery contactors, but other than that the component count should be comparable to standard arrangements. I approached this from a whole system prospective to achieve the level of reliability I consider adequate and, as you point out, to avoid "applying band aids" to the weak links and ending up with an unnecessarily complex system, and a whole new set of weak links. Some specifics: - The batteries are physically separate, as are the left/right ignition breakers and left/right vital busses. - Under normal operation, both battery contactors are shut and the batteries operate in parallel providing power to the starter and non-vital buss, and receive power from the alternator (arranged following your diagrams). - The single non-vital buss contains loads such an landing lights and pitot heat, the loads that you would want to shed if operating on battery power alone. This buss can be brought back on line as needed by shutting one or both of the battery contactors. - Each vital buss is feed directly from it's battery via one of your light 20 amp contactor relays. Each vital buss distributes power using one of your 10 fuse holder blocks. The panel loads are divided such that the AI and COMM/GPS is on the left vital buss, the DG, Turn Coordinator and engine monitoring system is on the right, and so forth. I did add an "alternate feed" position for each vital buss power switch (on - off - on locking switch) such that the left vital bus can be powered from the right battery and vice versa. - The left and right ignition busses are simply a single breaker mounted at each battery. I did not provide a cross connect feature on the ignitions following the recommendation I received from Klaus at Light Speed Engineering that the engine will be fine on one ignition, especially considering the failure will be fixed before the next flight. The objective is if a single point failure occurs at the worst place common to both batteries (battery contactor output, union of battery feed and alternator output on the starter contactor, etc.) the pilot's only action is to open the two battery contactors shedding the loads on the non-vital buss (which for these examples also isolates the fault) and continue to fly the plane. All other single point failures are less severe in how they degrade the system. If the failure eliminates one battery, the pilot can, if time and flying condition permit, cross connect the affected vital buss restoring those loads. The degraded system will provide the necessary power to make the next airport. What I found interesting in the Flying magazine article was the type of failure describe modeled what I designed for. In an all electric plane, that pilot would have had a far more difficult time. As you point out there are other actions to help prevent this problem such as inspections of terminal connections for corrosion and abrasion, using quality material and construction techniques, etc. If this GA twin followed these practices perhaps they would have caught the problem. I do not profess this is the only way to achieve a reliable panel, and if it was not for the all electric panel in addition to the dual electronic ignitions, a standard battery and small diode isolated back up battery would work as well with perhaps a couple of pounds of weight savings. The decision tree I went through to go with dual electronic ignition and electric panel reflects what I want the plane to do, my analysis of life cycle costs and my read on specific component reliability. The concept for this system design is straight forward but it is not something one would immediately relate to how things are done on GA aircraft. I believe however it does reflect your design philosophies that: - Failures will happen. - Design and construction techniques must minimize the probability of failures. - If/when a failure occurs the system must be able to gracefully degrade with little or no pilot action. - The system will provide at least the minimum loads necessary to maintain safe flight following the most severe single point failure. - The pilot needs to fly the plane during a casualty, not troubleshoot an electric panel. Thanks for providing the forum to vet new ideas. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (systems install) Vienna, VA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:40 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: it was a dark and stormy night . . . > > >The April issue of "Flying" has a story titled "Heart of Darkness". The >article is about how a Cessna twin had a single point failure in his >electrical system that very rapidly left the pilot with no electrical power. >Recommended reading as there are many lesson's learned. If you think your >electrical system design will leave you with only 15 minutes of continued >flight under IFR conditions following a single point electrical failure, >then I recommend you never fly under IFR conditions. If you want an IFR >plane, design the electrical and avionic systems such that you can continue >IFR flight following the most severe single point electrical failure. This >is how I ended up with two physically separate 17AH batteries, ignition >busses and vital busses. If you think you have a good reason to depart from any of the diagrams I've published, I'd like to know about it. If there are good features I've missed, then we need to add them to the mix of choices offered. If you're unnecessarily complicating your system at the risk of increasing pilot workload, you need to know it. Critical review of new ideas is how we reinforce good ideas and keep bad ideas from going to production. >The alternator, one battery, one vital bus and one >ignition bus can go up in vapor and the plane will still have what it needs >to make the next airport. I can't tell you how many millions of dollars of engineering effort has been put into piling BandAids on the design of electrical systems of airplanes with TWO engines that STILL have single points of failure for the whole system. At the risk of irritating my employer, we build LOTS of two-engine machines where we've missed golden opportunities to ELIMINATE the chances for an electrical emergency. The condition is common to ALL certified aircraft. The up-side of this condition is that it gives aviation journals a continuous flow of what I call the "dark and stormy night" stories to fill out their issues. . . . how many stories do your read about ANY OTHER KIND of system failure in these magazines? If we were encouraged and allowed to do our duty as designers, those pages would have to be filled with something else . . . maybe an advertisement for a knee-board with built in reading light, GPS receiver and MP3 player? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Dysinger" <larrykdysinger(at)hotmail.com>
AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com, Aviation-List(at)matronics.com, Avionics-List(at)matronics.com, EZ-List(at)matronics.com, Glasair-List(at)matronics.com, Homebuilt-List(at)matronics.com, Kolb-List(at)matronics.com, Lancair-List(at)matronics.com, Pitts-List(at)matronics.com, Rocket-List(at)matronics.com, RVCanada-List(at)matronics.com, RVEurope-List(at)matronics.com, Sonerai-List(at)matronics.com, Tailwind-List(at)matronics.com, Zenith-List(at)matronics.com, BostonRVBuilders(at)yahoogroups.com, oregon-rvlist(at)yahoogroups.com, RV-6and6A(at)yahoogroups.com, SEFlaRVbuilders(at)yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [rv8list] Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Mike, That is great work. And thanks for sharing it with your fellow listers. Larry RV-8QB - Fuselage From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , Subject: [rv8list] Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:00:08 -0600 Version 2.0 of the Experimental Panel Builder is up and running. The response to Version 1.0 was almost overwhelming and we received many requests for additional panels and instruments. We've tried to accommodate as many as possible but if we've missed something please let us know by clicking on the "Request New Panels" or "Request New Instruments" link. After we published version 1.0 fellow RV List member, RV-8 Builder (soon to be RV-7 builder) and web master extraordinaire, Jared Boone (Portland, OR) offered us some suggestions on how we could make things work a little better. I had some discussions with Jared via email and even tossed back a brewski or two with him on a recent visit to Portland. Jared took time out of his busy work schedule (guess what he does for a living) and helped turn out the version of code that you see here. Truly remarkable and Bill and I owe him a lot of thanks. So what's new? First, you can now save your work. Yes, that's right. After creating a panel, all you have to do is log out or go to another web page. The next time you log in you're panel will still be right there were you left off. Neat. Space saving organization. Drop down menu's allow you to select the panel you're interested and the category of instruments your interested in working on. This saves space and makes creating panels easier. Duplicate items. Now you can drag as many items onto the panel as you like. Just keep dragging them up there. You want lots of circuit breaker and switches. Just keep dragging them up. If you don't like an instrument then just drag it off the panel and it goes away. Don't like any of your work and want to start over? Just hit the reset button. Because of all the code changes, the time it takes for the initial page to load has been greatly reduced because it doesn't have to load all the images at once. After the last version was published we received a ton or requests for additional panels and equipment. This is where Bill Vondane came to the rescue. Bill jumped into action and developed no less than 20, yes 20, new panels and added many more instruments. After Jared modified the code to make the new changes possible, Bill had to add all the new data, and modify things to get it published. Bill also created the user interface and "Tips" page to help makes things a little clearer. Bill and Jared have graciously donated LOTS of time and effort to bring this tool to it's present state. Remember, these guys both have planes to build and busy jobs and families to take care of. Enjoy the updated version and let us know what you think. Alas, there is a downside. For all those Microsoft haters out there, this new version is even LESS Netscape friendly than the pervious version. At this time, due to the methods used to create some of the features, ONLY Internet Explore 5.5 can be used to access the new features. Jared is working on making it compatible with earlier versions of Internet Explorer so until that time, the earlier version 1.0 is still available to use. We're talking about developing some techniques that will allow ALL browsers to work but that's still a ways off as time and energy permits. Check it out. http://sonexlinks.com/panelbuilder/ or link to it from my page http://bmnellis.com or Bills page http://vondane.com/rv8a Guess what? It's still free! What a country. Mike Nellis Stinson 108-2 N9666K RV-6 N699BM (reserved) Plainfield, IL (LOT) http://bmnellis.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD <John.Livingston(at)wpafb.af.mil>
Subject: Panel switches
Date: Mar 28, 2001
All, Don't bother with this. It is expensive and it did not work on .05 medium temper alum panel. The tap it cut was too small to capture the switch groove. I had to send it back. I simply punched a tap out with a square cut nail. It worked fine as will any of the other options noted. Save your money. John -----Original Message----- From: Van Artsdalen, Scott [mailto:svanarts(at)unionsafe.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Panel switches Another alternative I wish I had known about before I drilled my holes for my switches: Greenlee makes a knockout punch that forms a tab in the hole that fits the notch in the switches Bob (B&C) sells. If you use this punch to make your holes, then you can use any old washer. I can retrace my steps and locate the part number if someone can supply me with the measurements of the threaded portion of the switches. -- Scott VanArtsdalen, MCSE, CCNA Network Administrator Union Safe Deposit Bank 209-946-5116 -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 11:16 AM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel switches Nuckolls, III" > >All of my panel switches had a indexed ring with a 90 degree tab on them >that looks like it is supposed to go into a little hole to keep the switch >from turning. Don't really want to drill a hole above each switch. Other >that just tightening the switches up has anyone devised a way to keep the >switches from turning without drilling the little slot hole? There have been several good responses to this query. The When this topic popped up, I was reminded of an issue of "shop notes" I'd started and needed to finish. I've done so and you can view it at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switchmounting/switchmounting.html Matt Dralle tells me the AeroElectric-List is now monitored by about 450 folks. This is very pleasant news. Thank you all for your participation and support. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com through http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2001
From: paulliz(at)cix.co.uk (Paul & Liz Atkinson)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/27/01
In article <200103280751.f2S7p1914512(at)matronics.com>, aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com (AeroElectric-List Digest Server) wrote: > Matt Dralle tells me the AeroElectric-List is now monitored > by about 450 folks. This is very pleasant news. Thank you all > for your participation and support. > > > Bob . . . Thank you Bob for all your support of people like me! Paul Atkinson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Bob, I've got the OV module(s) to build into the system, but some of the components I'm planning on using (like the Auxiliary Battery Management Module I plan on getting from you) only refer to connections using a remote regulator. And no, I've not approached the alternator shop to have them remove it. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 9:53 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator > > > > >On my 3.8L Ford I've installed one of the little 55 amp Denso > >alternators with the built in regulator. I'm interested in removing the > >built in regulator and installing one of the regular remote Ford voltage > >regulators. Is there a diagram in one of your many wiring charts that > >shows how to junk the built in one and wire in the remote one? > > > >Thanks, > > No, they're all a little different. Have you considered having > an alternator shop do the mod for you . . . or even leaving the > built-in regulator in and adding external ov protection? > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RocketPilot2Be(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Re: [rv8list] Version 2.0 Experimental
Panel Builder AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com, Aviation-List(at)matronics.com, Avionics-List(at)matronics.com, EZ-List(at)matronics.com, Glasair-List(at)matronics.com, Homebuilt-List(at)matronics.com, Kolb-List(at)matronics.com, Lancair-List(at)matronics.com, Pitts-List(at)matronics.com, Rocket-List(at)matronics.com, RVCanada-List(at)matronics.com, RVEurope-List(at)matronics.com, Sonerai-List(at)matronics.com, Tailwind-List(at)matronics.com, Zenith-List(at)matronics.com, BostonRVBuilders(at)yahoogroups.com, oregon-rvlist(at)yahoogroups.com, RV-6and6A(at)yahoogroups.com, SEFlaRVbuilders(at)yahoogroups.com Mike, wonderful job. Thanks a lot !!! (Hey, listers, shouldn't we throw a dollar in the hat for Mike ??????) /Hans Altena Cary, North Carolina (919) 412 6221 Sitting on the fence with my $$$ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Mucker" <mmucker(at)airmail.net>
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rocket-List: Re: [rv8list] Version
2.0 Experimental Panel Builder
Date: Mar 28, 2001
I'm so impressed, that if someone'll give me an address, I'll pitch in TWO dollars! -Matt > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of > RocketPilot2Be(at)aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 7:35 PM > To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com; rv8list(at)yahoogroups.com; > rv-list(at)matronics.com; AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com; > Aviation-List(at)matronics.com; Avionics-List(at)matronics.com; > EZ-List(at)matronics.com; Glasair-List(at)matronics.com; > Homebuilt-List(at)matronics.com; Kolb-List(at)matronics.com; > Lancair-List(at)matronics.com; Pitts-List(at)matronics.com; > Rocket-List(at)matronics.com; RVCanada-List(at)matronics.com; > RVEurope-List(at)matronics.com; Sonerai-List(at)matronics.com; > Tailwind-List(at)matronics.com; Zenith-List(at)matronics.com; > BostonRVBuilders(at)yahoogroups.com; oregon-rvlist(at)yahoogroups.com; > RV-6and6A(at)yahoogroups.com; SEFlaRVbuilders(at)yahoogroups.com > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rocket-List: Re: [rv8list] Version 2.0 > Experimental Panel Builder > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: RocketPilot2Be(at)aol.com > > Mike, > wonderful job. Thanks a lot !!! > > (Hey, listers, shouldn't we throw a dollar in the hat for Mike ??????) > > /Hans Altena > Cary, North Carolina > (919) 412 6221 > Sitting on the fence with my $$$ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill VonDane" <n8vd(at)earthlink.net>
"Rv8list(at)Egroups.Com" , "Rv-List(at)Matronics.Com"
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rocket-List: Re: [rv8list]
Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Here you go... Experimental Panel Builder Donations... http://sonexlinks.com/panelbuilder/donate.htm -Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matthew Mucker Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 7:09 PM rv8list(at)yahoogroups.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com; AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com; Aviation-List(at)matronics.com; Avionics-List(at)matronics.com; EZ-List(at)matronics.com; Glasair-List(at)matronics.com; Homebuilt-List(at)matronics.com; Kolb-List(at)matronics.com; Lancair-List(at)matronics.com; Pitts-List(at)matronics.com; RVCanada-List(at)matronics.com; RVEurope-List(at)matronics.com; Sonerai-List(at)matronics.com; Tailwind-List(at)matronics.com; BostonRVBuilders(at)yahoogroups.com; oregon-rvlist(at)yahoogroups.com; RV-6and6A(at)yahoogroups.com; SEFlaRVbuilders(at)yahoogroups.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rocket-List: Re: [rv8list] Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder I'm so impressed, that if someone'll give me an address, I'll pitch in TWO dollars! -Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator
> >Bob, >I've got the OV module(s) to build into the system, but some of the >components I'm planning on using (like the Auxiliary Battery Management >Module I plan on getting from you) only refer to connections using a remote >regulator. And no, I've not approached the alternator shop to have them >remove it. > >Dave The various combinations of components shown in our wiring diagrams are "mix and match" . . . meaning that you can generally incorporate attractive features from one diagrams into another. I'd recommend you add external ov protection and leave your regulator built in. We can still incorporate the low voltage warning as either a simple warning light driver or automatic management of an auxiliary battery. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
Date: Mar 28, 2001
"RV-List: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Rocket-List: Re: [rv8list] Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder" (Mar 28, 7:22pm) rocket-list(at)matronics.com, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Version 2.0 Experimental Panel Builder
I've just made my contribution to Mike Nellis' great effort. Have you? Paypal was painless and quick. Give it a try. Matt Dralle Email List Admin. >-------------- >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" > >Here you go... > >Experimental Panel Builder Donations... >http://sonexlinks.com/panelbuilder/donate.htm > >-Bill > > > > >I'm so impressed, that if someone'll give me an address, I'll pitch in TWO >dollars! > >-Matt >-------------- -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft Great minds discuss ideas, Average minds discuss events, Small minds discuss people... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re:
> >Bob, > > I was remiss in not providing the details as to how I came up with this >electrical arrangement, thus leading you to the conclusion I was adding >unnecessary complexity. Sounds like you've thought it through well. The only thing I might try to do is eliminate any relays between the batteries and their respective "vital bus" . . . I've done a number of designs where dual batteries drive a 6 to 10 slot fuseblock for a hot-all-the-time battery bus. All of the goodies feeding from these buses have their own control switches and they're all generally low current loads . . . like 5A or less. There's no great need to disconnect these busses while parking the aircraft and it eliminates the least reliable component in the pathway . . . a relay or contactor. I've just uploaded an example of what I'm talking about to the website. It's a two piece drawing so you'll have to download http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v2.pdf print them both, trim the edge off of v2 and tape it to v1 to make the hole drawing. This two battery system would get the yearly rotation of a new battery into the main slot and move last year's new battery to the aux slot. Are you going vacuum or all electric? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: pitch trim runaway
> >Don't mean to use up bandwidth, but felt the need to jump in here. My >Cessna with a S-TEC 60-2 autopilot had a very simple electric pitch system >that was fault tolerant. Instead of the single DPDT switch usually shown on >schematics I have seen they used two separate SPDT switches placed right >next to each other. You had to move BOTH levers simultaneously to produce a >trim movement. As each wire from the trim motor was connected to the common >terminal of a switch there was no single wire that could be shorted to >either power or ground that could produce a trim movement. This was true of >wires upstream or downstream of the switch. If a switch stuck in one >position the movement would still stop when the other switch returned to >neutral. All conceivable single failure modes resulted in either no trim or >in a blown breaker. What's wrong with that? this is almost exactly the system used on KingAirs . . . Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs -
03/26/01 > >When I looked at the voltage trace it was with the voltage regulator active. >But the voltage regulator only modulates the current in the field, which in >turn modulates the current in the stator, not the clipping voltage. >Certainly as the stator current increases the clipping voltage will increase >because of the resistance in the battery. One way to estimate the battery >resistance is to see what the voltage is during cranking. A healthy battery >might drop from 12.5 volts to maybe 10 volts with a 150-amp cranking load, >giving a calculated battery resistance of .016 ohms. A 50-amp charging >current will then raise the battery voltage from maybe 13 (some hysteresis) >to about 14. Therefore, with a full-charging alternator I would expect to >see about 14 volts at the peaks of the battery voltage trace. The numbers >above are pure estimates. The internal impedance of a battery isn't symetrical with respect to charging and discharging. For example, I have a nearly new 33 a.h. Panasonic RG battery I use for portable power on some of my data acquisition systems. I set up my bench supply for 20 volts and 20 amps constant current output. The RG battery at rest was about 13.0 volts. With 20A applied, it climbed to over 17 volts in about two seconds. A 40A or 60A alternator stuck in a shoot for the moon mode would be faster still. The rate of rise was tapering off . . . sometime I may put the data acquisition system on it and plot the curves for various overcharge currents. Of course as the battery ages, its ability to stand off such an assault is diminished. This battery measures about .008 ohms internal impedance for a 200A cranking load. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator
> >I dont't understand the avantage to do that, i've the same installation plus >a built-in solenoide, should I remove that too? > >Daniel >601 hds w\soob Lost you Dan, We were talking about Dave's ND alternator with built in regulator which I'm recommending that he leave in place and add an external disconnect contactor and ov protection module per diagrams on our website. I think you may be talking about the solenoid on your engine's starter. No? The easiest answer is to use an external relay to energize your existing solenoid to avoid severe stress on your panel mounted push button or starter switch. See figure Z-14 on or website's errata and mid-revision updates page. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Version 2.0 Experimental
Panel Builder > > >I've just made my contribution to Mike Nellis' great effort. Have you? >Paypal was painless and quick. Give it a try. > >Matt Dralle >Email List Admin. Alas, I am a Macintosh usin' "Microsoft hater" ;-) ! The web site looks great! Kudos to Mike and Bill All the best - Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: re:
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this AM. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 8:44 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: > >Bob, > > I was remiss in not providing the details as to how I came up with this >electrical arrangement, thus leading you to the conclusion I was adding >unnecessary complexity. Sounds like you've thought it through well. The only thing I might try to do is eliminate any relays between the batteries and their respective "vital bus" . . . I've done a number of designs where dual batteries drive a 6 to 10 slot fuseblock for a hot-all-the-time battery bus. All of the goodies feeding from these buses have their own control switches and they're all generally low current loads . . . like 5A or less. There's no great need to disconnect these busses while parking the aircraft and it eliminates the least reliable component in the pathway . . . a relay or contactor. I've just uploaded an example of what I'm talking about to the website. It's a two piece drawing so you'll have to download http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v2.pdf print them both, trim the edge off of v2 and tape it to v1 to make the hole drawing. This two battery system would get the yearly rotation of a new battery into the main slot and move last year's new battery to the aux slot. Are you going vacuum or all electric? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Subject: re:
From: <racker(at)rmci.net>
Same problem here. Save to your hard drive and load from there, works fine. Rob. -----Original Message----- FROM: Paul Messinger DATE: Thu 3/29/01 9:18 SUBJECT: RE: AeroElectric-List: re: Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this AM. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 8:44 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: > >Bob, > > I was remiss in not providing the details as to how I came up with this >electrical arrangement, thus leading you to the conclusion I was adding >unnecessary complexity. Sounds like you've thought it through well. The only thing I might try to do is eliminate any relays between the batteries and their respective "vital bus" . . . I've done a number of designs where dual batteries drive a 6 to 10 slot fuseblock for a hot-all-the-time battery bus. All of the goodies feeding from these buses have their own control switches and they're all generally low current loads . . . like 5A or less. There's no great need to disconnect these busses while parking the aircraft and it eliminates the least reliable component in the pathway . . . a relay or contactor. I've just uploaded an example of what I'm talking about to the website. It's a two piece drawing so you'll have to download http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v2.pdf print them both, trim the edge off of v2 and tape it to v1 to make the hole drawing. This two battery system would get the yearly rotation of a new battery into the main slot and move last year's new battery to the aux slot. Are you going vacuum or all electric? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "sue gregor" <hailey67(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: kx145
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Any body out there have a pin out schematic for Bendix KX145. Older radio worked well but someone cut harness. Appreciate any help. Thanks Sue ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re:
> >Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and >dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this >AM. > >Paul I'm mystified by the number of folks having problems with this. I have Netscape 4.7, Acrobat 4.0 and use Acrobat distiller to create the .pdf files. I just clicked on my own link and it downloaded just fine. What browser are you using? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re:
>-----Original Message----- >FROM: Paul Messinger >TO: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >DATE: Thu 3/29/01 9:18 >SUBJECT: RE: AeroElectric-List: re: > > >Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and >dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this >AM. > >Paul Same problem here. Save to your hard drive and load from there, works fine. Rob. I just tried to download directly to Acrobat with Internet Explorer and it just locks up and gives me a blank screen. When I donwload with Netscape the feed to Acrobat is seamless and the files print as expected. Saving to hard drive and opening later works with both browsers. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Page 2 from homepage
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Bob, Could you please fax me just page 2 from your websites link to the new OV protection. I've tried several times unsuccessfully and can only get page 1 before the server times out and quits. Please everyone, just one copy. Thanks. Dave Goff FAX:904/ 829-5707. Attn- Dave. Even our webmaster can't figure this 'en out. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: kx145
Date: Mar 29, 2001
I have the pin outs for a KING KX 145 which I can send as a scan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sue gregor" <hailey67(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 11:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: kx145 > > Any body out there have a pin out schematic for Bendix KX145. Older radio > worked well but someone cut harness. Appreciate any help. > Thanks Sue > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com>
Subject: re:
Date: Mar 29, 2001
I thought that I had the same problem but all you have to do is wait about 5 minutes and the page comes up fine. I thought the computer was locked up but apparently the image file is huge and it just takes extra time to load. The message in the status bar says "Done" but just wait and the page will eventually appear. Chris Heitman Dousman WI RV-9A N94ME (reserved) Fuselage http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html -----Original Message----- Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this AM. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "sue gregor" <hailey67(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: kx145
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Cy I would appreciate that very much. Sue Gregor >From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: kx145 >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:42:00 -0600 > > >I have the pin outs for a KING KX 145 which I can send as a scan. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "sue gregor" <hailey67(at)hotmail.com> >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 11:28 AM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: kx145 > > > > > > > Any body out there have a pin out schematic for Bendix KX145. Older >radio > > worked well but someone cut harness. Appreciate any help. > > Thanks Sue > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re:
> >I thought that I had the same problem but all you have to do is wait about 5 >minutes and the page comes up fine. I thought the computer was locked up but >apparently the image file is huge and it just takes extra time to load. The >message in the status bar says "Done" but just wait and the page will >eventually appear. Hmmm . . . that's a new twist. The _v1 file is 66Kbyte, the _v2 file is about 20Kbytes. They download here in about 3 and 1 second respectively when I use Netscape. I'll try it with IE. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Page 2 from homepage
> >Bob, Could you please fax me just page 2 from your websites link to the >new OV protection. I've tried several times unsuccessfully and can only >get page 1 before the server times out and quits. Please everyone, just >one copy. Thanks. > >Dave Goff >FAX:904/ 829-5707. Attn- Dave. > >Even our webmaster can't figure this 'en out. Hmmm . . . this is getting frustrating. Anywho, I've faxed a copy of the document right from the .pdf file in my computer. It should arrive with far quality. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: re:
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Ihave mickey soft V5.0 and adobe acrobat that includes reader v 4.06. Your problem is unique to me in last several months after updating from reader v4.0 to 4.06 Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 10:51 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: re: > >Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and >dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this >AM. > >Paul I'm mystified by the number of folks having problems with this. I have Netscape 4.7, Acrobat 4.0 and use Acrobat distiller to create the .pdf files. I just clicked on my own link and it downloaded just fine. What browser are you using? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <stuckle(at)ifc.utc.com>
Subject: Dual Batteries
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Bob, I'm looking at your z11_v1.pdf/z11_v2.pdf files and have a couple of questions: 1. How is the ignition wired in these schematics? I'm assuming dual electronic ignitions are used and that either battery can supply voltage to both ignition systems. Are two switches required? Why not power both off the essential buss? 2. Why not use a double pole, center off switch for the essential buss alternate feed? This would enable the second battery to be selected if, for some reason, the first one failed.. OR, better yet, diode couple the two battery sources together for the essential buss feed..... 3. How is the auxiliary battery charged? I'm assuming That the Aux Master switch has to be turned ON whenever the MASTER is ON. Doesn't this setup make the overall process a bit more ergonomically complicated? So many switches to remember what each does... And to remember to shut off least the battery goes dead..... ____ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: > >Bob, > > I was remiss in not providing the details as to how I came up with this >electrical arrangement, thus leading you to the conclusion I was adding >unnecessary complexity. Sounds like you've thought it through well. The only thing I might try to do is eliminate any relays between the batteries and their respective "vital bus" . . . I've done a number of designs where dual batteries drive a 6 to 10 slot fuseblock for a hot-all-the-time battery bus. All of the goodies feeding from these buses have their own control switches and they're all generally low current loads . . . like 5A or less. There's no great need to disconnect these busses while parking the aircraft and it eliminates the least reliable component in the pathway . . . a relay or contactor. I've just uploaded an example of what I'm talking about to the website. It's a two piece drawing so you'll have to download http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v1.pdf and http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/z11_v2.pdf print them both, trim the edge off of v2 and tape it to v1 to make the hole drawing. This two battery system would get the yearly rotation of a new battery into the main slot and move last year's new battery to the aux slot. Are you going vacuum or all electric? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: source for overhauled electric gyros
I'm seriously considering going with an all electric panel (14v system). The high cost and long lead time to get new gyros are a problem though. Are there any particular places I should or should not buy overhauled gyros from? Any good or bad types/models of gyros? Any other considerations? Thanks, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: source for overhauled electric gyros
Kevin, I too was worried about long lead times so I ordered the RC Allen electric artifical horizon from ACS about 2 or 3 weeks ago to make sure that I had it in about 6 months time when I figure I'll need it. It came yesterday, 8 degree tilt and all. I'm thinking about using that remote compass instead of DG, at least at first, and saving about $1500 US. http://www.ritchienavigation.com/mseries.htm Anybody flying one of these yet? Ed Holyoke 6QB (cardboard panel) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: source for overhauled electric gyros > > I'm seriously considering going with an all electric panel (14v > system). The high cost and long lead time to get new gyros are a > problem though. > > Are there any particular places I should or should not buy overhauled > gyros from? Any good or bad types/models of gyros? Any other > considerations? > > Thanks, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: source for overhauled electric gyros
> >I'm seriously considering going with an all electric panel (14v >system). The high cost and long lead time to get new gyros are a >problem though. > >Are there any particular places I should or should not buy overhauled >gyros from? Any good or bad types/models of gyros? Any other >considerations? > >Thanks, Consider punching the panel for a DG but not purchasing it until later. You get really GOOD heading info from a GPS receiver. I think one could learn to do most of what's necessary to comfortably navigate without a DG. It's possible that some new, all electronic DG replacement products will be available by the time you REALLY need them . . . and for a whole lot less than the cost of a slaved gyro. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronnie Brown" <rolandbrown(at)sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: re:
Date: Mar 29, 2001
I had no problem using Win 98, Internet Explorer 5.5 and Acrobat 4.0 (downloaded the files to my hard drive using right click), then opened it from the hard drive. Worked GREAT. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Kellar" <rkellar(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Ammeter type
Date: Mar 29, 2001
Fellow Electron Chasers & Bob, After reading AeroElectric Connection 10 or more times on ammeters and shunts I think I have finally learned what I need to do to not have big, high current wires coming into the cockpit. Now for the questions. I have a Mitchell ammeter (matches all the other instruments in the panel). The instructions supplied with it appear to indicate wiring the Old Way with the charging current from the alternator coming through the meter to the battery. Is there a way to use this meter and still use a shunt on the ground side of the battery as illustrated in Bob's drawings? Using the shunt on the ground side of the battery, does location matter? Near the battery vs. near the battery contactor on the firewall? Thanks for your help. Bob Kellar(RV6A) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/27/01
Date: Mar 28, 2001
Thanks for all the comments on overvoltage protection! My planned system now (probably) incorporates one (maybe two) alternator(s) with internal voltage regulator AND OV protection, two batteries and two busses, one main and one to operate the backup engine controller. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 19 Msgs -
03/27/01 > >Thanks for all the comments on overvoltage protection! My planned system >now (probably) incorporates one (maybe two) alternator(s) with internal >voltage regulator AND OV protection, two batteries and two busses, one main >and one to operate the backup engine controller. Have you looked at Figure Z-4 from the power distribution diagrams in the book? You can download the package from http://www.aeroelectric.com/errata/R9Z_0400.pdf Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ammeter type
> >Fellow Electron Chasers & Bob, >After reading AeroElectric Connection 10 or more times on ammeters and >shunts I think I have finally learned what I need to do to not have big, >high current wires coming into the cockpit. Now for the questions. I have >a Mitchell ammeter (matches all the other instruments in the panel). The >instructions supplied with it appear to indicate wiring the Old Way with the >charging current from the alternator coming through the meter to the >battery. Is there a way to use this meter and still use a shunt on the >ground side of the battery as illustrated in Bob's drawings? Using the >shunt on the ground side of the battery, does location matter? Near the >battery vs. near the battery contactor on the firewall? Thanks for your >help. >Bob Kellar(RV6A) If the instrument is a zero-center device then it's intended for service as a (+)charge - (-)discharge battery ammeter. When the instrumentation chapter was written, I was flirting with the idea of putting a shunt in one of the battery leads . . . I was trying to get the alternator b-lead off the bus and out on the firewall. When you do this, the classic automotive/ aircraft battery ammeter circuit won't work. Hence, putting a shunt in series with the battery might get this feature back for folks wanting the minus-0-plus instrument. In fact, this is not practical and you don't see it illustrated in any of the diagrams at the back of the book. That configuration will be eliminated at the next update to that chapter. Can you trade the instrument for one that reads 0 to some full scale value? Then you can size a shunt to the output of the alternator and use the instrument as suggested in the wiring diagrams. Alternatively, you can use the instrument as an alternator load meter and just be aware that there will never be normal readings below zero on the left side of the scale. The last choice, and least attractive to me, is to wire your airplane like a C-172 (b-lead protection at the bus inside the cockpit) and wire the instrument as suggested by the installation instructions with the instrument. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: D-sub pins
>Bob, > >The crimp tool is the BCT-1 that I got from you. The pins came from a local >electronics supplier. The pins can be crimped with the BCT-1 and they look >like the pins on the computer video cable. The pins will fit and lock into >the D-sub connector. But I am not familiar with the term "high density". > >Ken Take a peek at the connectors on the back of your computer. You probably have an RS-232 serial connector that is a 9-pin male and a VGA video connector that is a 15-pin female. Note that both of these connectors have the same shell size. About 15 years ago, various manufacturers began offering higher density d-sub series connectors with the same shells as standard but with more pins in them. Sounds like you're dealing with the original connectors . . . the BCT-1 and open barrel pins will work fine. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re:
> >Ihave mickey soft V5.0 and adobe acrobat that includes reader v 4.06. > >Your problem is unique to me in last several months after updating from >reader v4.0 to 4.06 > >Paul Interesting. If you right-click the link and download to disk, can you then open the file independently of the browser? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Ammeter type
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Speaking of ammeters ... I am planning on using the Grand Rapids engine monitor and I asked them if I could use an auxiliary input as an alternator load meter with an appropriate current shunt. I got this answer back: "We are looking into a current sensor that will allow an aux input be used to display current. Uses a hall effect sensor (no shunt required). Expected cost is $40 or so..." Is there any reason why I wouldn't want a hall effect sensor instead of a shunt? Chris Heitman RV-9A http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: Rob Miller <rmill2000(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Instrument Panel Screws
Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff in the 'Spruce book. Thanks Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Screws
Date: Mar 30, 2001
> Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for > mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff > in the 'Spruce book. You are referring to black coated brass instrument screws. Any avioinics shop will stock them, or they are in the current ACS catalog at the top left of page 95. Randy Lervold www.rv-8.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Im7shannon(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Screws
In a message dated 3/30/01 8:13:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, rmill2000(at)yahoo.com writes: > Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for > mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff > in the 'Spruce book. > > Thanks > > Rob Rob, I installed my instruments with stainless allen head type screws I bought at a local fastener supply house, they look pretty cool. I can email you a photo if you want -9A Kevin in WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
Subject: re:
If you wait several minutes it eventually comes in. scot > > > > > > >Unable to download here. Says "done but no pix". I have latest acrobat and > >dowmload daily form various sites with no proplems. Neither pix works this > >AM. > > > >Paul > > I'm mystified by the number of folks having problems with > this. I have Netscape 4.7, Acrobat 4.0 and use Acrobat > distiller to create the .pdf files. I just clicked on my > own link and it downloaded just fine. > > What browser are you using? > > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerry Carter" <jcarter8(at)midsouth.rr.com>
Subject: Instrument Panel Screws
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Rob, On page 95 of the 2000-2001 ASS catalog, the brass instrument screws at the top of the page are, in fact, black. Either brass or stainless is non-magnetic and should work for you. Jerry Carter 8A - Finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Miller Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 8:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Screws Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff in the 'Spruce book. Thanks Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: source for overhauled electric gyros
Date: Mar 30, 2001
> Are there any particular places I should or should not buy overhauled > gyros from? Any good or bad types/models of gyros? Any other > considerations? I bought used units from an outfit out of Canada. Below is an email from them. I got an RC Allen DG and a BF Goodrich AH. In the next eight months, I may be selling my RC Allen DG. I want to get the Tru Trak autopilot and their slaved DG if I have the money. Ross ************************************* From: Shane R Goedvolk <sgoedvolk(at)sprint.ca> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Electric gyros > Hi Ross, > > We are a parts broker and buy and sell whatever we can lay our hands on. We > always have items, but the quality and quantity varies ... the batch we have > now (almost finished) of BF Goodrich units has been exceptional in that they > were mostly surplus stock which we have been able to sell for 70% less than > list! This does not happen too often! But we always have parts ... > > Regards, > Shane ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us>
Subject: Instrument Panel Screws
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Rob, Check the website below. They have black screws in lots of sizes. The screws are steel but I plan to use them in my instrument panel. http://www.aaronsmachinescrews.com/ Ken Harrill RV-6, electrical Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff in the 'Spruce book. Thanks Rob ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Instrument Panel Screws
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Thread-Topic: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Screws Thread-Index: AcC5RMNDZzFqPva9S2Cj0hhhUCnA2wAABEFQ
From: "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza(at)realmed.com>
I grabbed a handful of black button-head allen machine screws out of a bin from my buddy's machine shop (yep free)...they're steel screws. I put them in a ziploc bag (about 200 of them) and sat them next to the compass and it barely moved, so they're fine to use in the panel. Bob Japundza RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying 96 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: A few more questions
>After working on the wiring this weekend, I've come-up with a few more >questions: > >1. In the Z-7 schematic, what is the wire AWG connecting the battery >contacter to the bus? this wire is sized to the alternator's output . . . or how much of it you would EVER expect to use . . . 8AWG is good for 40A and is probably a good middle of the road choice. >2. What type of diode goes on the battery contacter? I have the one >from Aircraft Spruce. Any diode you can get your hands on will do electrically. It's very UNcritical. However, our contactors are fitted with 1N5400 series devices which you can buy at Radio Shack in a blister pak of 2 for about $1. These are 3A diodes with a voltage rating of 50 volts or more. They have robust leads that crimp well into the Red (22-18AWG) PIDG terminals. These are the diodes you see illustrated in our parts catalog. The picture for the S701-1 contactor shows a good way to attach the diode. >3. The picture on your site of the relay has a diode in it, but I don't >see the diode in the schematic. Should I install one like the picture >shows? I put that on 'cause a builder wanted to add diodes to ALL of his relays/contactors and was asking how to do it on the S704-1. That device stores very little energy and what spike it dumps out is zero risk . . . that diode is optional. However, here you need the smaller devices like a 1N4000 series device. 1A rating at any voltage. RS has these too. . .. >4. What ring terminal would you recommed for a 12 AWG wire to a 1/4" >post? I didn't see anything on your website for those sizes. The Yellow PIDG terminals are 10-12AWG and the only thing we have in that range is the yellow fast-on receptacles. Terminals in that range are low volume devices and I was waiting until I built up the inventory in smaller sizes first. Now that it's B&C's inventory, we'll have to see. You might e-mail Todd at B&C . . . there might be a small quantity of the right terminals in the laboratory stock that he could accommodate your needs. >5. Does RG-400 coaxial cable work ok with the special connectors that >are put in my radio trays? I want to use it...just want to be sure it >doesn't cause any problems because in the manuals, RG-58 is specifically >called-out. Yes . . . the connectors we stock are originally designed for RG-58 and we've used them all many times with the RG-400. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
> >Bob, > >I'm looking at your z11_v1.pdf/z11_v2.pdf files and have a couple of >questions: > >1. How is the ignition wired in these schematics? I'm assuming dual >electronic ignitions are used and that either battery can supply voltage to >both ignition systems. Are two switches required? Why not power both off the >essential buss? No, one ignition runs from the main battery bus, the other ignition runs from the aux battery bus. >2. Why not use a double pole, center off switch for the essential buss >alternate feed? This would enable the second battery to be selected if, for >some reason, the first one failed.. OR, better yet, diode couple the two >battery sources together for the essential buss feed..... Why make it so complicated? What's the likelihood of loosing an alternator and both batteries on a single flight? In fact, if you pay even rudimentary attention to battery maintenance in the form of periodic capacity checks or yearly swap out, loss of battery probability goes to near zero. This leaves wiring as the next most vulnerable featurs in the system. It's best not to have the two ignition systems share anything . . . not even a battery selector switch. Keep it simple. >3. How is the auxiliary battery charged? I'm assuming That the Aux Master >switch has to be turned ON whenever the MASTER is ON. Sure . . . for all normal operations both battery switches are on. The only time you turn them off is when you don't have engine driven power source (also a very rare event with ND alternators). > Doesn't this setup make the overall process a bit more ergonomically >complicated? So many switches to remember what each does... And to remember >to shut off least the battery goes dead..... What would you do different? What I've proposed is no more switches for ignition and fuel pumps than you would have if you only had one battery. I counsel against making them anything but simple ON/OFF switches that control power from one battery to one appliance. The only thing that's added is an aux battery master that is always on anytime the DC power master is on EXCEPT while in flight and after you've lost an alternator. Figure Z11 shows an optional aux battery management (low voltage monitor module) that will automatically close your aux battery contactor any time the bus is above 13.0 volts. The ONLY time this happens is if you have a properly functioning alternator. So as long as the low voltage light is OUT, it doesn't matter where your aux battery master switch is placed. If the light comes on, pilot actiona are always the same Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel H Kight <kightd@basf-corp.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Screws
Rob, One of my favorite sources for aircraft hardware and misc. items for my RV-6 is B&B Aircraft Supplies in Gardner, KS. (913) 884-5930. (I got my black brass instrument screws from them, but I don't remember the price offhand) They don't have a catalog, but they do have a wide selection, and they usually beat Aircraft Spruce on price, especially shipping costs. Give them a call, tell them what you need, and they will put it in the mail to you. When it arrives, send them a check for the amount on the invoice. It's a very pleasant and gentlemanly way to do business. They travel to all the big airshows, so call them before it gets too close to Sun-n-Fun. Danny Kight Anderson, SC EAA Chapter 249 Sonerai IILT (flying for 400 hrs) RV-6 (wiring the panel) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Screws
Date: Mar 30, 2001
If you don't find what you're looking for there, they have other websites. http://aaronscapscrews.com Mike Nellis Stinson 108-2 N9666K RV-6 N699BM (reserved) Plainfield, IL (LOT) http://bmnellis.com > > Rob, > > Check the website below. They have black screws in lots of sizes. The > screws are steel but I plan to use them in my instrument panel. > > http://www.aaronsmachinescrews.com/ > > Ken Harrill > RV-6, electrical > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: dual electric system
> >> Bob >> >> I have e-mailed before regarding the setup of my dual alternator, >> dual battery, dual electronic ignition system. As time is pressing I need >> some basic advise so that I can begin design. How would you handle a dual >> EFIS system to give the best failure mode. I was thinking separate busses >> for each alternator. This would, however leave one of the EFIS CRT's down >> if one system went offline. Could the 2 EFIS panels and associated >> hardware be on 1 bus with a way to divert either alternators power to that >> bus in case one alternator failed. Also the electronic ignitions will >> need to remain online also. I could deal with one of the EFIS CRTs down >> as the info can be displayed on either. The engine airdata unit (EAU) and >> the Attitude/Heading Reference system (AHRS) needs to remain online at all >> times. These parts are part of the Sierra Flight System. Thanks in advance >> >> >> Jim Yes, just having trouble staying up with all the tasks. Start with Figure Z4 in the book. This is an exemplar dual, fully redundant electrical system that I would install in any heavy single or light twin aircraft. Add battery busses to each battery to support engine criticals like fuel pumps and ignition systems. Put one EFIS on the MAIN bus, one on the AUX bus. If you suffer alternator failure (unlikely if you use B&C hardware) then you'll still have crossfeed capability if the remaining alternator has enough snort to carry present loads. Have you done a load analysis on the proposed installation? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ammeter type
> >Speaking of ammeters ... > >I am planning on using the Grand Rapids engine monitor and I asked them if I >could use an auxiliary input as an alternator load meter with an appropriate >current shunt. I got this answer back: > >"We are looking into a current sensor that will allow an aux input be used >to display current. Uses a hall effect sensor (no shunt required). Expected >cost is $40 or so..." > >Is there any reason why I wouldn't want a hall effect sensor instead of a >shunt? A shunt is more rugged and generally more precise and stable with temperature. Hall effect devices are used regularly with great success. They're easier to install as you don't have to break into and put terminals on the wire you're instrumenting. From a practical perspective, either has it's advantages and limitations. So I guess your choice should be driven by compatibility and convenience issues. If GRI's engine monitor is set up to use hall effect, it probably cannot use a shunt so the answer here is pretty simple. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: source for overhauled electric gyros
The really pricey item is the electric DG, particularly the ones that can interface to an autopilot. Has anyone considered using a vacuum DG with an electric horizon and the "all electric" power source setup? I realize that the second alternator wants to go where the vacuum pump would normally be. Is there a creative alternate? cheers Jim Bean Ed Holyoke wrote: > > > Kevin, > > I too was worried about long lead times so I ordered the RC Allen electric > artifical horizon from ACS about 2 or 3 weeks ago to make sure that I had it > in about 6 months time when I figure I'll need it. It came yesterday, 8 > degree tilt and all. I'm thinking about using that remote compass instead of > DG, at least at first, and saving about $1500 US. > http://www.ritchienavigation.com/mseries.htm > Anybody flying one of these yet? > > Ed Holyoke > 6QB (cardboard panel) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 6:32 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: source for overhauled electric gyros > > > > > I'm seriously considering going with an all electric panel (14v > > system). The high cost and long lead time to get new gyros are a > > problem though. > > > > Are there any particular places I should or should not buy overhauled > > gyros from? Any good or bad types/models of gyros? Any other > > considerations? > > > > Thanks, > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Safest battery location
> I've been reading the "batteries and fuel" thread with interest. I'm building an RV-8A with a > parallel valve Lycoming 360 and a constant speed prop. Some builder feel that the low speed > (approach to landing) handling of this ship is better with the battery located in the baggage > compartment rather than on the firewall. > I noted someone mentioned earlier that batteries are a major cause of after crash fires. Which of > these two locations (firewall / baggage compartment) do you feel offers better safety in a > crash/post crash situation? In an airplane with no header or fuselage tank, it probably doesn't make a great deal of difference. The odds are much stronger in your favor if the battery master is OFF before you're untimely arrival with the ground. Obviously, the area behind the seat is less likely to receive crush in an accident so I would suppose that's the best place with respect to protecting the battery and keeping its potential energy corraled after the dust settles. However, heavy things located BEHIND you need to be strapped down pretty good (10 g's minimum or 150# for a 17 a.h. battery). A couple of velcro straps with 6 square inches of lap will hold in excess of 150# each. Of course the object here is to keep the battery from coming loose and hitting you in the backside. I recall a couple of test pilots at Cessna who experienced a crash that was probably survivable except for several hundred pounds of flight test instrumentation strapped down in the back seat that came loose. But if the master switch is still on, it doesn't matter where the battery is located . . . lots of things get crunched with the potential for high current shorts. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2001
From: ENewton57(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Screws
In a message dated Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:13:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, Rob Miller writes: Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff in the 'Spruce book. Thanks Rob Hi Rob, I just got mine. The instrument screws listed in Spruce (Brass INstrument Screws) are black. Good luck, Eric Newton - Long Beach, MS RV-6A - N57ME (Reserved) (Firewall Forward) www.ericsrv6a.com >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sam Chambers" <schamber@glasgow-ky.com>
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Screws
Date: Mar 30, 2001
I am using stainless steel button head socket cap screws I got from McMaster-Carr. They are not shiny-looking stainless, but have kind of a brushed look and could be painted black. Sam Chambers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Miller" <rmill2000(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Screws > > Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for > mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff > in the 'Spruce book. > > Thanks > > Rob > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Biddle" <dbiddle(at)wans.net>
Subject: wiring Diagram files
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Bob, I used schematic Figure Z8 for my RV6A with a couple of small changes. I would like to get your critique of the changes. Is Z8 available as a .dwg file like some of the schematics on Aeroelectric? I would like to do an as built drawing including labeling of what is protected by each fuse on each bus - main, essential and battery to keep with the plane and in the POH. Could you post the dwg files or let me know where they are? Then I would edit and sent the file back to you for comment with my changes in red and explantions of the change. Thank you for the great information and wiring philosophy. Dave Biddle RV6A Phoenix, AZ. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Mar 30, 2001
Subject: Re: dual electric system
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: dual electric system Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > >> Bob > >> > >> I have e-mailed before regarding the setup of my dual alternator, dual > >> battery, dual electronic ignition system. As time is pressing I need > >> some basic advise so that I can begin design. How would you handle a > >> dual EFIS system to give the best failure mode. I was thinking > >> separate busses for each alternator. This would, however leave one of > >> the EFIS CRT's down if one system went offline. Could the 2 EFIS > >> panels and associated hardware be on 1 bus with a way to divert either > >> alternators power to that bus in case one alternator failed. Also the > >> electronic ignitions will need to remain online also. I could deal > >> with one of the EFIS CRTs down as the info can be displayed on either. > >> The engine airdata unit (EAU) and the Attitude/Heading Reference system > >> (AHRS) needs to remain online at all times. These parts are part of the > >> Sierra Flight System. Thanks in advance > >> > >> > >> Jim > > > Yes, just having trouble staying up with all the tasks. > Start with Figure Z4 in the book. This is an exemplar dual, > fully redundant electrical system that I would install in any > heavy single or light twin aircraft. Add battery busses to each > battery to support engine criticals like fuel pumps and ignition > systems. Put one EFIS on the MAIN bus, one on the AUX bus. If > you suffer alternator failure (unlikely if you use B&C hardware) > then you'll still have crossfeed capability if the remaining > alternator has enough snort to carry present loads. > > Have you done a load analysis on the proposed installation? > > Bob . . . Thanks for the reply I tentatively have and I will forward asap. Thanks for your help this morning. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2001
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: DSub Crimp tool
Bob, I have been using your crimp tool, its great. I have to install a radio that has some funny DSub pins. They are miniature DSubs but extra long on the wire side. They are designed to receive 18 ga wire. They do this by sticking out of the connector. They don't go into the tool far enough to put the crimp in the right place. If I remove the back of the crimp tool I can get the pins to go in far enough. Some questions: Will the crimp tool close enough on the 18 ga part of the pin to release the ratchet? Will the oversize pin harm the tool? If not what tool would be better to use? regards and TIA Jim Bean ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com>
Subject: connectors, fuselinks
Date: Mar 31, 2001
What type of connectors, if any, are people using thru a (composite) firewall? I saw the Amphenol circular connectors used but they are expensive. I was thinking of using connectors for ease of installation/removal and troubleshooting, but these events should be minimal (I hope). Is it typical to run wires one-piece from the engine compartment, thru the firewall right to the switches/busses? Certainly would be more reliable. How are they bundled and grommeted? How are they grouped? I will have about 8 engine-critical wires and 25 or more instrumentation wires. I was going to group them like that, but I thought engine vs firewall wires might make more sense and would make a neater harness. If no connectors are used, I guess it doesn't matter since the wires can just be passed thru a grommet and a small hole in the firewall, but for connectors some convention would be nice. Also, I was going to use 22AWG for instrumentation wires but I was wondering about fuses. Is it simpler to just use 20AWG and use 24AWG fuselinks? Thanks for any comments, Gary K. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 31, 2001
Subject: Instrument Panel Screws
3/31/01 Hello Rob, A comment on your posting below: Phillips head screws are the pits (and very old fashioned). You might want to investigate using hex socket (allen wrench) head cap screws. I have used them throughout my airplane. They are available in a wide variety of sizes, head styles, and finishes including black and stainless steel. They look high tech -- take a look at the newest fighter planes and space vehicles -- you will see many uses of hex socket head fasteners. But the real reason that I like them is that they are so vastly superior to the phillips head for installation and removal. I have a small tool set from Chapman that includes several different sizes of hex bits. When I use one of these bits and a small cordless screw driver I can rapidly install and remove these hex socket head cap screws without fear of the bit jumping out and marring the surrounding surface finish. If you are concerned about the magnetic affect of steel screws in the vicinity of any of your instruments you could use the stainless steel hex socket head cap screws. One source of these hex socket head cap screws is Micro Fasteners. <> or 800-892-6917. They will mail you a catalog upon request. "OC" Baker In a message dated 03/31/2001 2:53:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes: << From: Rob Miller <rmill2000(at)yahoo.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Screws Does anyone know a good source for black, round-head phillips screws for mounting instruments in the panel? I can't seem to find the right stuff in the 'Spruce book. Thanks Rob >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2001
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Subject: Re: wiring Diagram files
Bob - I would also be interested in getting the drawings from Appendix Z as .DWG files. I have AutoCAD and access to a larger format printer and plotter, which makes it easier to work from. We are looking at an all electric system on a Lancair Super ES. Thanks in advance and I'll also order the latest version of the Manual from your website. Mine is rev 6 and you have taken a few giant steps since then. Dave Biddle wrote: > > Bob, > I used schematic Figure Z8 for my RV6A with a couple of small changes. I > would like to get your critique of the changes. Is Z8 available as a .dwg > file like some of the schematics on Aeroelectric? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: source for overhauled electric gyros
> >The really pricey item is the electric DG, particularly the ones that >can interface to an autopilot. Has anyone considered using a vacuum DG >with an electric horizon and the "all electric" power source setup? I >realize that the second alternator wants to go where the vacuum pump >would normally be. Is there a creative alternate? >cheers Jim Bean Have you considered not having a DG? If you have an A.H. then keeping dirty side down is easy. If the a.h. goes TU then Needle/ Ball/A.S. techniques are a little more challenging but not difficult. If you have the most rudimentary a/p (wing-leveler with CDI steering input) then you have a good way to hold GPS heading/GPS track. You get excellent course info from GPS. To get the airplane flying I think I'd punch a hole for DG and cover it with a nicely painted plate. You can do a LOT of flying sans DG and after some experience you might find that you can do without it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: re:
Date: Mar 31, 2001
I cannot right click on your complete link as in your original post. However going to the next higher link works fine and appeared completely normal to me. TX for all the help. BTW I now have started running into sites that ONLY work with Mickysoft V5.5. The 800 lb Gorella seems to have arrived. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 6:58 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: re: > >Ihave mickey soft V5.0 and adobe acrobat that includes reader v 4.06. > >Your problem is unique to me in last several months after updating from >reader v4.0 to 4.06 > >Paul Interesting. If you right-click the link and download to disk, can you then open the file independently of the browser? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Mar 31, 2001
Subject: Re: dual electric system
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: dual electric system Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > >> Bob > >> > >> I have e-mailed before regarding the setup of my dual alternator, dual > >> battery, dual electronic ignition system. As time is pressing I need > >> some basic advise so that I can begin design. How would you handle a > >> dual EFIS system to give the best failure mode. I was thinking > >> separate busses for each alternator. This would, however leave one of > >> the EFIS CRT's down if one system went offline. Could the 2 EFIS > >> panels and associated hardware be on 1 bus with a way to divert either > >> alternators power to that bus in case one alternator failed. Also the > >> electronic ignitions will need to remain online also. I could deal > >> with one of the EFIS CRTs down as the info can be displayed on either. > >> The engine airdata unit (EAU) and the Attitude/Heading Reference system > >> (AHRS) needs to remain online at all times. These parts are part of the > >> Sierra Flight System. Thanks in advance > >> > >> > >> Jim > > > Yes, just having trouble staying up with all the tasks. > Start with Figure Z4 in the book. This is an exemplar dual, > fully redundant electrical system that I would install in any > heavy single or light twin aircraft. Add battery busses to each > battery to support engine criticals like fuel pumps and ignition > systems. Put one EFIS on the MAIN bus, one on the AUX bus. If > you suffer alternator failure (unlikely if you use B&C hardware) > then you'll still have crossfeed capability if the remaining > alternator has enough snort to carry present loads. > > Have you done a load analysis on the proposed installation? > > Bob . . . Bob How would you do a load analysis? Would you take the circuit breaker size required for the item and add all those together? Or is there another way that is more accurate or meaningful? Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: wiring Diagram files
> >Bob - > >I would also be interested in getting the drawings from Appendix Z as .DWG >files. I have AutoCAD and access to a larger format printer and plotter, which >makes it easier to work from. We are looking at an all electric system on a >Lancair Super ES. The downloadable drawings packages at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/seminar.exe and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wirebook.exe Will unfold to include a wirebook in progress that was originally put together for a Lancair IV-P >Thanks in advance and I'll also order the latest version of the Manual from >your website. Mine is rev 6 and you have taken a few giant steps since then. Why don't you also order the CD ROM and then put a note in the comments box that you want an AutoCAD .dwg dump. I'll ADD a gob of stuff you can pick through and build your wirebook. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 31, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: re:
> >I cannot right click on your complete link as in your original post. However >going to the next higher link works fine and appeared completely normal to >me. > >TX for all the help. > >BTW I now have started running into sites that ONLY work with Mickysoft >V5.5. The 800 lb Gorella seems to have arrived. > >Paul Oh joy . . . I had an interesting meeting today with the local Linux users group. They helped me, my father-in-law, and my friend Brent get a Linux box up and running. Just got of the phone with Brent who took the box home and plugged it into his cable modem. After he emailed me the I.P. address I was able to telnet and FTP into the new computer from my desk. We tried to get the server client to load but I guess we copied the command line down wrong and it barfed . . . however, with telnet running okay, we can solicit online help from a variety of local support sources. We took the whole users group out for pizza after the meeting. Made some really good contacts with folk who do this because they ENJOY it . . . they do whippier things as a hobby than some folks do for a living. Never thought I'd be buying good consulting services for pizza instead of dollars but that's how it seems to be working out. It's my turn to buy next time. Probably the best $75 I'll ever spend! We're working toward having our own website host machines. The initial testing will be done without assigning domain names . . .just working with the i.p. address on the end of the cable modems. When we're comfortable with the new technology, we'll get DSL lines and move the servers to faster upload services. Just what I need, another project! This was an assembly of true geeks . . . some of them were as conversant in Commodor 64 enhancements as they were in more modern, heavy iron. Many were guys you probably wouldn't want your daughter to date. Styles of dress and social skills not withstanding, it's rare that I find myself in close proximity with so much knowledge and understanding of a very complex subject I'm reminded of a consulting job I took in Lawrence KS about 22 years ago. If you didn't write in Fortran on a mainframe or assembler in a 8-bit 8080 machine, you didn't write. I worked in a rather diverse collection of personalities there too . . . these guys wrote heavy duty animation and graphics analysis programs in assembler! Our best byte thrasher rode a Harley, weighed about 300 pounds, chain smoked, came in about 2pm and worked past midnight, drank coffee by the gallon and lived on nachos and Big-Macs. But when he sat down at the keyboard, truly astounding things would happen . . . I think he was the best paid guy in the shop . . . and was worth every dime. A VERY interesting day . . . Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Subject: Re: wiring Diagram files
Bob - I'll order the CD as well. Many thanks for the add-ons, too. Cheers, John Schroeder > Why don't you also order the CD ROM and then put a note > in the comments box that you want an AutoCAD .dwg > dump. I'll ADD a gob of stuff you can pick through > and build your wirebook. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Strobe Power Supply Wires
Date: Apr 01, 2001
Bob wrote: "Use an ohmmeter to see if the power ground wire actually connects to the power supply case. If it DOES, and your airplane is all metal, then take the power ground to local ground along with the shields." Bob, just to clarify this, is the local power ground used INSTEAD of the firewall ground or IN ADDITION to it. Chris Heitman Dousman WI RV-9A N94ME (reserved) Canopy http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Strobe Power Supply Wires
> >Bob wrote: "Use an ohmmeter to see if the power ground wire actually >connects to the power supply case. If it DOES, and your airplane is all >metal, then take the power ground to local ground along with the shields." > >Bob, just to clarify this, is the local power ground used INSTEAD of the >firewall ground or IN ADDITION to it. If your airplane is metal -AND- the strobe supply has a low resistance (less than 10 ohms) connection between the negative power supply lead -and- the case, then ground the power supply locally. Taking the (-) leadwire elsewhere when it was already connected firmly to local ground via case bolts would CREATE an unnecessary and potentially pesky ground loop. In the targets business, we always design our major electrical/ electronic components with separate case and power grounds. Cases are always grounded locally along with shields to ward off noises coming in from outside. Power grounds are taken to a single point common, usually inside the power distribution box. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Salt Lake City seminar
The April 21/22 weekend seminar in Salt Lake City is a go program. You can access details and/or make a reservation at the following link: http://www.aeroelectric.com/SaltLake.html I'd appreciate any assistance that AeroElectric-List subscribers can offer in relaying this information to other list servers to which they might subscribe. Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Century II autopilot..anyone know how to feed HEading
info from Garmin 295?
Date: Apr 01, 2001
Bob made an excellent point about linking an autopilot to a GPS as Vacuum system back up. Dave Leonard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Century II autopilot..anyone know how to feed
HEading info from Garmin 295? Is info available re. design/schematic of a buffer/interface circuit GPS> 2/3 axis autopilot??..would be very interested as I have built a 2 axis system and would like to incororporate a dual GPS setup ..regards, Vern Smith "David A. Leonard" wrote: > > Bob made an excellent point about linking an autopilot to a GPS as Vacuum > system back up. > Dave Leonard > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Century II autopilot..anyone know how
to feed HEading info from Garmin 295? > >Is info available re. design/schematic of a buffer/interface circuit GPS> 2/3 axis >autopilot??..would be very interested as I have built a 2 axis system and would like to >incororporate a dual GPS setup ..regards, Vern Smith See: http://www.porcine.com/gps/index.shtml Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: pitot head
>Bob > I am having some difficulty with my pitot tube installation. The heater in >it kicks out the fuses when the switch is thrown. I have tried both 10 and >15 amp fuses. From your notes I would guess this is a resistive cirucuit and >you mention slow blow fuses, are they available in the blade style? > >Thank you > >Tom Martin No, just the standard blow . . . Pitot heaters can take up to 3x their normal running current during cold start. Just for grins, see how big the fuse has to be to stand up to the startup current. It only lasts for a few seconds but it is substantial. If push came to shove, you could probably wire with 12AWG and 20A fuse even tho the normal running current is down around 8A. Do you know what the wattage of your heater is? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: DSub Crimp tool
> >Bob, >I have been using your crimp tool, its great. I have to install a radio >that has some funny DSub pins. They are miniature DSubs but extra long >on the wire side. They are designed to receive 18 ga wire. They do this >by sticking out of the connector. They don't go into the tool far enough >to put the crimp in the right place. Interesting. I've never seen this style of pin. What is the function of the wire. I cannot imagine that 18AWG is necessary . . . I'll bet you can wire it with 20AWG and go back to the standard pin. >If I remove the back of the crimp tool I can get the pins to go in far >enough. Some questions: Will the crimp tool close enough on the 18 ga >part of the pin to release the ratchet? Will the oversize pin harm the >tool? If not what tool would be better to use? >regards and TIA Jim Bean > I think the oversized wire and pin would be over-crimped by the tool. It probably wouldn't hurt it but the wire would be weakend by too much mash. I'd drop back to 20AWG and standard pin. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: pitot head
An alternative..install a sequential startup circuit which a slow warmup over a priod of 2-3 minutes, orginally designed for slow warmup if a vaccum tube transmitter..consists of a 555 timer ic, 3 scrs, and 3 power resistors..cannot remember exact details, but should not be difficult to put together.regards, Vern Smith "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > >Bob > > I am having some difficulty with my pitot tube installation. The heater in > >it kicks out the fuses when the switch is thrown. I have tried both 10 and > >15 amp fuses. From your notes I would guess this is a resistive cirucuit and > >you mention slow blow fuses, are they available in the blade style? > > > >Thank you > > > >Tom Martin > > No, just the standard blow . . . Pitot heaters can take up to 3x their > normal running current during cold start. Just for grins, see how big the > fuse has to be to stand up to the startup current. It only lasts for a few > seconds but it is substantial. If push came to shove, you could probably > wire with 12AWG and 20A fuse even tho the normal running current is down > around 8A. Do you know what the wattage of your heater is? > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: pitot head
> >An alternative..install a sequential startup circuit which a slow warmup over a priod of 2-3 >minutes, orginally designed for slow warmup if a vaccum tube transmitter..consists of a 555 timer >ic, 3 scrs, and 3 power resistors..cannot remember exact details, but should not be difficult to >put together.regards, Vern Smith That kind of approach was going to be my next suggestion. I prefer to keep the complexity out if a simple upsized supply path would suffice. There are several approaches to a soft start circuit but all add parts count and reduce reliability. If such a circuit is installed, you need to have a way to know that it's working. Actually, most certified ships coming off the assembly line today have a PITOT HEAT OFF annunciation that lets you know if the heater is burned out or disconnected. Let's see what the beefier supply circuit does for you and save the grab bag of electronics parts for a last resort. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: load anaylsis
>Have you done a load analysis on the proposed installation? Bob . . . I had asked about how to do a load analysis? I have listed all loads and breaker sizes. Somethings are on periodically, some all the time. On your CD of the Lancair IV electrical there is a page with the 2 busses and place for names and loads. It is filled in with info for the Lancair. Is there a blank copy of that same form? This is not a joke :-) Understand. Actually, I'm working on an article for Sport Aviation on this topic. Yes, the forms I show in those diagrams are an example and a blank for doing your own system. The notion is that you need to categorize load conditions for all flight modes. You need to fill in currents that represent continuous running loads . . . transient loads like transmit, landing gear motors, etc are included but noted as intermittent and then not included as part of the totals. What you need to convince yourself is that the alternator has plenty of oomph to carry worst case loads and STILL have about 20 to 25% of its capacity left over to recharge the battery. Of course, you do a separate analysis for each system if you have a dual system. perhaps two more analysis for a situation where one alternator of a dual system is down and you've closed the cross-feed contactor to keep both buses up. And last, an analysis for an essential bus to show what things are on for normal ops and what loads are on only during battery only ops . . . again, it's an exercise to KNOW how much you can depend on limited resources of electrical energy under various operating conditions. Of course, it's insufficient to just add up the breakers . . . . breaker size is only loosely related to running loads. You need to get out the data for the equipment you plan to install and look up the rated loads or actually measure it with an ammeter on your airplane. I'll see if I can get a blank form published this evening that folks can use to facilitate the analysis tasks on their projects. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: Matthew Gelber <mgelber(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery?
Does the B&C SD-8 alternator (with capacitor added) work if the battery or battery contactor dies? By staring at Note 20 on Figure Z-6 I've managed to convince myself that it does, but I thought I should ask... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery?
Date: Apr 02, 2001
> Does the B&C SD-8 alternator (with capacitor added) work if the battery or > battery contactor dies? By staring at Note 20 on Figure Z-6 I've managed > to convince myself that it does, but I thought I should ask... Bob will hopefully jump in here but I will post what I have been told. Yes it will work but it may be noisy. I have been looking at the options myself. I have the SD-8 and a 40 amp B&C alternator with one battery and one electronic ignition. I have yet to decide if I want to save the SD-8 for backup only or power a separate bus isolated with a relay to the essential bus. If I do the later, I may use a small 2-4 amp battery with the SD-8 for noise reduction purposes. If the SD-8 is used only as a backup, I will wire it as Bob has shown in "All Electric on a Budget". In this case, the SD-8 will be hooked up to the main battery for noise reduction. Ross 6-A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Apr 02, 2001
Subject: Re: load anaylsis
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: load analysis Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > > >Have you done a load analysis on the proposed installation? > > Bob . . . > I had asked about how to do a load analysis? I have listed all > loads and breaker sizes. Somethings are on periodically, some all the > time. > > On your CD of the Lancair IV electrical there is a page with the 2 > busses and place for names and loads. It is filled in with info for > the Lancair. Is there a blank copy of that same form? This is not a > joke :-) > Understand. > > Actually, I'm working on an article for Sport Aviation on this > topic. Yes, the forms I show in those diagrams are an example and > a blank for doing your own system. > > The notion is that you need to categorize load conditions for > all flight modes. You need to fill in currents that represent > continuous running loads . . . transient loads like transmit, > landing gear motors, etc are included but noted as intermittent > and then not included as part of the totals. > > What you need to convince yourself is that the alternator has > plenty of oomph to carry worst case loads and STILL have about > 20 to 25% of its capacity left over to recharge the battery. > > Of course, you do a separate analysis for each system if you have > a dual system. > > perhaps two more analysis for a situation where one alternator of a dual > system is down and you've closed the cross-feed contactor to keep both > buses up. > > And last, an analysis for an essential bus to show what things are > on for normal ops and what loads are on only during battery only > ops . . . again, it's an exercise to KNOW how much you can depend > on limited resources of electrical energy under various operating > conditions. > > Of course, it's insufficient to just add up the breakers . . . . > breaker size is only loosely related to running loads. You need > to get out the data for the equipment you plan to install and > look up the rated loads or actually measure it with an ammeter > on your airplane. I'll see if I can get a blank form published > this evening that folks can use to facilitate the analysis tasks > on their projects. > > > Bob . . . Bob Thank you very much for the explanation. This really helps me organize my efforts. I hope to be at your SLC seminar. Weather permitting. Where can I download the blank form for the analysis? I only have the CD with the forms already filled in with the Lancair info. Thanks again Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Goff" <dgoff(at)megasystem.com>
Subject: Combining drawings
Date: Apr 02, 2001
Bob, Thank you very much for the new OVM diagram. Now, what would it take (please read this as $) for you to combine this drawing with the dual battery drawing and maybe even incorporate the ground DC power and dual electronic ignition modules into one drawing? I know you don't do wirebooks anymore but I haven't got the where-with-all to decipher the differences in these drawings and make it happen correctly without sending an inordinate amount of emails or phone calls. I've got all my " 'lectric Bob " stuff ready to go to Sun-N-Fun this week and hope to share it with all. Are you planning on going? Dave Goff dgoff(at)megasystem.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery?
> >Does the B&C SD-8 alternator (with capacitor added) work if the battery or >battery contactor dies? By staring at Note 20 on Figure Z-6 I've managed >to convince myself that it does, but I thought I should ask... Yes it does. It needs a battery to get started but if the battery becomes disconnected -AND IF- you've included the recommended filter capacitor, the SD-8 will run and deliver rated output sans battery . . . But it still begs the question . . . under what circumstances would you be worried about not having a battery available to do its job? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: Matthew Gelber <mgelber(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery?
I was worried about two possibilities- 1) The battery might somehow fail. I don't think that this is at all likely, but I am a paranoid lad. I was worried more that: 2) I might do a poor job on one of my wiring connectors, not know it, and have it fail later down the road. Looking in figure 17-4 it seems to me that you could break just about any connection in the entire diagram and still have a working system, because of the e-bus design (which is genius, by the way). If the SD-8 needed a battery then that would be the one component that would be vital to the whole enterprise- if one of the battery connections failed it would be game over for the whole system. But I guess the worry is irrelevant since the SD-8 works if you removed the battery. Maybe I shouldn't worry too much about my connections- I'll probably do a fine job, but I worry about things a lot. I've "worked my special magic" on many an airframe part, to which I'm sure Van's replacement parts order takers can attest. Only difference is its easy for me to see my mistakes when I drill and rivet and I'll be a crimping and soldering virgin when I do the electrical system (though I won't be wiring till after Watsonville in June). I'll probably wind up doing a fair amount of IFR through the marine layers in coastal CA (a favorite fantasy involves me living in Little River shooting the GPS approach I hope they put in), and I'm also considering installing a FADEC system which would make me more electrically reliant than a lot of people. Maybe Z-6 with a smaller battery? I've got time to think about it... Thanks, Matthew "Trying to make an 1100 lb IFR RV-8A" Gelber 8A Fuse PS- Thanks again for the great book. PPS- An idea- I bet if you sold a line of Bob-approved batteries, and the bigger B&C alternators, they'd sell pretty well... I (and others I'm sure) would rather give you my hard-earned cash than ACS... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery? > >Does the B&C SD-8 alternator (with capacitor added) work if the battery or >battery contactor dies? By staring at Note 20 on Figure Z-6 I've managed >to convince myself that it does, but I thought I should ask... Yes it does. It needs a battery to get started but if the battery becomes disconnected -AND IF- you've included the recommended filter capacitor, the SD-8 will run and deliver rated output sans battery . . . But it still begs the question . . . under what circumstances would you be worried about not having a battery available to do its job? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------- ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) ( education" Albert Einstein ) -------------------------------------------------- http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Van Beek" <vanbeek.don(at)verizon.net>
"aeroelectric-list" , "rv-list"
Subject: Bob Haan's WigWag Controller - Italy Trip
Date: Apr 02, 2001
My wife and I will be vacationing in Italy in late May and early June. We would love to visit several RV Projects to share our shop knowledge plus discuss and answer questions regarding the WigWag Controller for the leading edge light flashing system. Bob Haan, RV6A, and I developed this system. I am the designer of the WigWag and interested in seeing your project, explaining all the features and benefits of the WigWag unit and hearing about other electronic products you would like to designed into your plane.. This is our first trip to Italy and meeting aircraft builders or other pilots would be exciting for us. We will be in the following cities on the dates listed below and would like to meet with anyone in the area who is interested. Venezia - May 25 through May 29 Genova - May 31 through June 5 Como - June 7 through June 12 If you are interested in meeting please, respond with your email address and we can setup a time and place to meet. It would be a great pleasure for us to address your local builders group. For additional information on the WigWag Solid State Controller leading edge lights flashing system see: http://www.easystreet.com/~bhaan/ Don Van Beek - vanbeek.don(at)verizon.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: load anaylsis
>Bob > >Thank you very much for the explanation. This really helps me >organize my efforts. I hope to be at your SLC seminar. Weather >permitting. Very good. Hope to meet you there. > >Where can I download the blank form for the analysis? I only have >the CD with the forms already filled in with the Lancair info. Click on http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/LoadAnalysis.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2001
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: DSub Crimp tool
These pins are part of the Garmin 430 install kit. They are standard DSub, not miniature. I checked with the radio shop this morning and thay said that these pins carry the +14 and ground for the comm radio that is in there. It is supposed to draw about 8 amps during transmit. The +14 and ground both have two pins. I guess they are worrind about the current capacity of the pins. Maybe Garmin is worried about voltage drop on a long run, such as in a transport AC. My little RV won't have more that 10' from the big battery cable. This makes using 20 ga seem OK to me. Jim Bean "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > > >Bob, > >I have been using your crimp tool, its great. I have to install a radio > >that has some funny DSub pins. They are miniature DSubs but extra long > >on the wire side. They are designed to receive 18 ga wire. They do this > >by sticking out of the connector. They don't go into the tool far enough > >to put the crimp in the right place. > > Interesting. I've never seen this style of pin. What is the function > of the wire. I cannot imagine that 18AWG is necessary . . . I'll bet > you can wire it with 20AWG and go back to the standard pin. > > >If I remove the back of the crimp tool I can get the pins to go in far > >enough. Some questions: Will the crimp tool close enough on the 18 ga > >part of the pin to release the ratchet? Will the oversize pin harm the > >tool? If not what tool would be better to use? > >regards and TIA Jim Bean > > > > I think the oversized wire and pin would be over-crimped by the > tool. It probably wouldn't hurt it but the wire would be weakend > by too much mash. I'd drop back to 20AWG and standard pin. > > Bob . . . > -------------------------------------------------- > ( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. ) > ( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal ) > ( education" Albert Einstein ) > -------------------------------------------------- > http://www.aeroelectric.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin Power Wiring
> >These pins are part of the Garmin 430 install kit. They are standard >DSub, not miniature. I checked with the radio shop this morning and thay >said that these pins carry the +14 and ground for the comm radio that is >in there. It is supposed to draw about 8 amps during transmit. The +14 >and ground both have two pins. I guess they are worrind about the >current capacity of the pins. Hmmm . . . the area of mated surface of female and male pins where they come together inside the connector is fixed . . . and here's where the current rating of the pin is set. If they've shared +14 and ground on pairs of pins (rated at 5A each) then you want to wire them independently with equal lengths of wire that ADD a substantial amount of resistance with respect to the mated resistance of the pins. >Maybe Garmin is worried about voltage drop on a long run, such as in a >transport AC. My little RV won't have more that 10' from the big battery >cable. This makes using 20 ga seem OK to me. >Jim Bean The only good reason to put fatter wires into 22AWG rated pins is for voltage drop. 20AWG wire is about 10 milliohms per foot. I can't imagine having more than 4-5 feet of wire between your radio and the bus . . . a similar max length between radio and ground block. Even 3' of wire in each strand adds 30 milliohms in series with each pin which is plenty big enough to swamp out pin-to-pin resistance variations. Assuming worst case of 5' in both the +14 and ground leads and 20AWG wire gives us two 10' 20AWG paths in parallel for 5 milliohms per foot or 50 millioms total. An 8A transmit draw would toss away 0.4 volts. Going to 18AWG wire would reduce this drop to 0.25 volts . . . not enough difference to be concerned with. If it were my radio, I'd go with the 20AWG and standard pins. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 03, 2001
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery?
> > >> Does the B&C SD-8 alternator (with capacitor added) work if the battery or >> battery contactor dies? By staring at Note 20 on Figure Z-6 I've managed >> to convince myself that it does, but I thought I should ask... > > >Bob will hopefully jump in here but I will post what I have been told. Yes >it will work but it may be noisy. I ran the SD-8 on the bench without a battery a few weeks


March 16, 2001 - April 03, 2001

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