AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ad
April 03, 2001 - April 30, 2001
ago and made some noise measurements . . . with a good
capacitor, the noise will be less than 1 volt peak-to-peak.
Quite acceptable. Less than most alternators.
> I have been looking at the options
>myself. I have the SD-8 and a 40 amp B&C alternator with one battery and
>one electronic ignition. I have yet to decide if I want to save the SD-8
>for backup only or power a separate bus isolated with a relay to the
>essential bus. If I do the later, I may use a small 2-4 amp battery with
>the SD-8 for noise reduction purposes. If the SD-8 is used only as a
>backup, I will wire it as Bob has shown in "All Electric on a Budget". In
>this case, the SD-8 will be hooked up to the main battery for noise
>reduction.
An extra battery is not necessary.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------
( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. )
( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal )
( education" Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Does SD-8 alternator work w/o battery? |
>
>I was worried about two possibilities-
>
>1) The battery might somehow fail. I don't think that this is at all
>likely, but I am a paranoid lad.
>
>I was worried more that:
>
>2) I might do a poor job on one of my wiring connectors, not know it, and
>have it fail later down the road. Looking in figure 17-4 it seems to me
>that you could break just about any connection in the entire diagram and
>still have a working system, because of the e-bus design (which is genius,
>by the way). If the SD-8 needed a battery then that would be the one
>component that would be vital to the whole enterprise- if one of the battery
>connections failed it would be game over for the whole system. But I guess
>the worry is irrelevant since the SD-8 works if you removed the battery.
>Maybe I shouldn't worry too much about my connections- I'll probably do a
>fine job, but I worry about things a lot. I've "worked my special magic" on
>many an airframe part, to which I'm sure Van's replacement parts order
>takers can attest. Only difference is its easy for me to see my mistakes
>when I drill and rivet and I'll be a crimping and soldering virgin when I do
>the electrical system (though I won't be wiring till after Watsonville in
>June).
If you can bolt the wings on with hardware that's hidden and
seldom looked at, I think it quite reasonable that your battery
bolts can enjoy the same or better operational reliability.
Got into a jousting match with a FAA type a few weeks ago when
he was hammering an installation I proposed because one of my
bolted joints didn't meet the FAA's notion of ten to the minus
ninth failures per flight hour (1 failure per billion hours).
I suggested that the FAA's reasoning was bogus. I offered that
if the bolt were properly installed, it would still be properly
installed when the dinosaurs returned . . . if it were improperly
installed, it might fail tomorrow. When you're dealing with
components affected by such variability, the handbook reliability
factors were meaningless.
>I'll probably wind up doing a fair amount of IFR through the marine layers
>in coastal CA (a favorite fantasy involves me living in Little River
>shooting the GPS approach I hope they put in), and I'm also considering
>installing a FADEC system which would make me more electrically reliant than
>a lot of people.
Why would you trash a perfectly good working engine with
FADEC? . . . I don't know how may starry-eyed, futuristic
designers have flirted with the notion that they're going
to save weight, save dollars and increase reliability
with any kind of "fly-by-wire" system. I've seen these
programs come and go and watched $millions$ wash down
the drain and we don't have them on bizjets yet.
The only time they even begin to make sense is if your
engine and/or control surface is 75 or more feet away and the
routing for manual controls drives up operation friction
or suffers from lack of straight pathways. It makes sense
on a Boeing or Airbus but not on the airplanes you and
I like to fly. You cannot beat the reliability and
convenience of hands-on inspection of contemporary
throttle, mixture and governor cables.
>PPS- An idea- I bet if you sold a line of Bob-approved batteries, and the
>bigger B&C alternators, they'd sell pretty well... I (and others I'm sure)
>would rather give you my hard-earned cash than ACS...
Saw a new battery line at B&C yesterday that seems
to have jumped another big step in performance.
He showed me a 12 a.h. battery that dumped out
better than 500+ amps for cranking . . . almost
2x better than the 20 a.h. Panasonic. These
will be showing up in B&C's webcatalog in the
next few days.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Combining drawings |
>
> Bob,
>Thank you very much for the new OVM diagram. Now, what would it take
>(please read this as $) for you to combine this drawing with the dual
>battery drawing and maybe even incorporate the ground DC power and dual
>electronic ignition modules into one drawing?
How about
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Z15_v1.pdf
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Z15_v2.pdf
> I know you don't do
>wirebooks anymore but I haven't got the where-with-all to decipher the
>differences in these drawings and make it happen correctly without
>sending an inordinate amount of emails or phone calls. I've got all my "
>'lectric Bob " stuff ready to go to Sun-N-Fun this week and hope to
>share it with all. Are you planning on going?
>
>Dave Goff
>dgoff(at)megasystem.com
No, Bill and Todd from B&C are leaving here tomorrow morning.
It will be a few more years before I start making that trek
again. I think I'll try to organize a weekend seminar in
Orlando/Lakeland area for either the preceding or following
weekend so I can afford to make the trip. It's a LONG way
from Wichita to the strawberry fields of Lakeland!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------
( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. )
( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal )
( education" Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
In a message dated 04/01/2001 12:52:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wirebook.exe >>
Bob:
Do I go directly to that web site? Or should I go to the home page first,
then work my way to the wirebook.exe? I'm presuming that's a self-extracting
file full of goodies.
When I pasted the URL above into the URL window of my AOL software, all I
got was "Error: Can't find web site. The site you wanted no longer exists or
may have moved."
Dan Eikleberry
RV-6 Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
Bob:
Don't know whats wrong with your web site, but I've tried using AOL (which is
my usual portal to the internet); and using Internet Explorer, which connects
via my dial up local to Compuserve. NEITHER is able to find you web site,
using the URL you've listed in every one of your posts! Is your site down?
http://www.aeroelectric.com = "Error: Can't find web site. Did you click on
a link?...."
Dan Eikleberry
RV-6 Flying.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - |
03/31/01
I just used Netscape 4.76 and earthlink and gained access.
I had no trouble with either the wirebook file or url to AEConnection.
I hope this is helpful.
Bill
RANS S-7 Courier
covering wings soon
>Bob:
>
>Don't know whats wrong with your web site, but I've tried using AOL (which is
>my usual portal to the internet); and using Internet Explorer, which connects
>via my dial up local to Compuserve. NEITHER is able to find you web site,
>using the URL you've listed in every one of your posts! Is your site down?
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com = "Error: Can't find web site. Did you click on
>a link?...."
>
>Dan Eikleberry
>RV-6 Flying.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mnellis(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
I doubt the problem is with the Aeroelectric web site. I just clicked on
the link in your message and got there just fine.
>
> Bob:
>
> Don't know whats wrong with your web site, but I've tried using AOL (which
is
> my usual portal to the internet); and using Internet Explorer, which
connects
> via my dial up local to Compuserve. NEITHER is able to find you web
site,
> using the URL you've listed in every one of your posts! Is your site
down?
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com = "Error: Can't find web site. Did you click
on
> a link?...."
>
> Dan Eikleberry
> RV-6 Flying.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - |
03/31/01
>
>Bob:
>
>Don't know whats wrong with your web site, but I've tried using AOL (which is
>my usual portal to the internet); and using Internet Explorer, which connects
>via my dial up local to Compuserve. NEITHER is able to find you web site,
>using the URL you've listed in every one of your posts! Is your site down?
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com = "Error: Can't find web site. Did you click on
>a link?...."
>
>Dan Eikleberry
>RV-6 Flying.
The site was down for several hours today but it seems to be up
and running now . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------
( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. )
( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal )
( education" Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
I just got in ok with Windows 98 Explorer
>Bob:
>
>Don't know whats wrong with your web site, but I've tried using AOL (which
is
>my usual portal to the internet); and using Internet Explorer, which
connects
>via my dial up local to Compuserve. NEITHER is able to find you web site,
>using the URL you've listed in every one of your posts! Is your site down?
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com = "Error: Can't find web site. Did you click
on
>a link?...."
>
>Dan Eikleberry
>RV-6 Flying.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | solder sleeves (again) |
Sorry to bring this up again, but I used the links from the previous email
to get the solder sleeve specs and the Raychem distributor search. I
checked with a few distributors around New England and they only sell in
quantities of 100. Did anyone have any luck finding small quantities?
Thanks, Gary K.
Pelican PL w/Stratus EA-81
painting and wiring
http://members.efortress.com/flyink/index.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 03/31/01 |
>Don't know whats wrong with your web site, but I've tried using AOL (which
is
>my usual portal to the internet); and using Internet Explorer, which
connects
>via my dial up local to Compuserve. NEITHER is able to find you web site,
>using the URL you've listed in every one of your posts! Is your site down?
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com = "Error: Can't find web site. Did you click
on
>a link?...."
I t worked fine here, and the second address asked if I wanted to download
the file...so, try putting a "/" after the link...sometimes AOL can be
pretty fussy...
http://www.aeroelectric.com/
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | solder sleeves (again) |
Gary,
DigiKey sells a similar 3M product in any quantity. These heat shrink solder
splices have a tin plated brass barrel in them that hold a solder disc. In
qty of 10 they are $0.49 to $0.77 each depending on size. See
http://www.digikey.com/ Page 550 in catalog.
To go directly to the catalog page click this:
http://info.digikey.com/T011/V4/550.pdf
I have not tried them yet.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
Canopy
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
-----Original Message-----
Sorry to bring this up again, but I used the links from the previous email
to get the solder sleeve specs and the Raychem distributor search. I
checked with a few distributors around New England and they only sell in
quantities of 100. Did anyone have any luck finding small quantities?
Thanks, Gary K.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Gray" <mgray(at)graymatter.org> |
| Subject: | Combining drawings |
Bob;
I may have missed this somewhere but both Z15 drawings and Z14 refer to
"AEC9005 Low Voltage Module"
I can't find this item in your book, on your website or on B&C's website.
Can you point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Mike Gray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Kellar" <rkellar(at)mediaone.net> |
| Subject: | Dummy strikes again |
Tonight I put power to the panel for the first time and to my disgust
discovered that one fuel gage reads empty and the other reads full. I must
have installed the sender up side down. Is there an electrical way to make
this gauge read correctly or do I have to fly inverted for 1/2 half of the
flight? The ultimate solution is to remove the tank (ugh!!) and turn the
sender over, rebend the float arm etc. Any suggestions? Thanks. Bob
Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Solder Sleeves and Heat Guns |
>
>Gary,
>
>DigiKey sells a similar 3M product in any quantity. These heat shrink solder
>splices have a tin plated brass barrel in them that hold a solder disc. In
>qty of 10 they are $0.49 to $0.77 each depending on size. See
>http://www.digikey.com/ Page 550 in catalog.
>
>To go directly to the catalog page click this:
>http://info.digikey.com/T011/V4/550.pdf
>
>I have not tried them yet.
I've ordered samples of these parts to try out. These don't
have pre-installed pigtails but it's not difficult to add
your own. If the critters work well, I'll publish the
information here and on my website.
BTW, my 20 year old Ungar heat gun went belly up last
weekend right in the middle of a hot job. None of the
electronics supply houses were open so I resigned myself
to buying something at Home Depot. I thought I'd find
one of those electric flame throwers weighing in at 10
pounds and used to thaw pipes and peel paint.
I was pleasantly surprised to find a Milwaukee
heat gun that was lighter and smaller than my
Ungar. It features an adjustable power control
to set heat output . . . my old gun stopped off
airflow to raise heat. This neat tool actually
controls power to heater with a circuit similar
to a light dimmer. The price was a pleasant $40.
I'll put a photo of the tool on the pigtails
article after I've had a chance to try the 3M
spice products.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/03/01 |
Bob:
The web site works now. I think you mentioned your web site was down for a
few hours today. That must have been when i was trying to get in. I'm still
using AOL, and it goes right in OK now. Thanks.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Combining drawings |
>
>Bob;
>
>I may have missed this somewhere but both Z15 drawings and Z14 refer to
>"AEC9005 Low Voltage Module"
>I can't find this item in your book, on your website or on B&C's website.
>Can you point me in the right direction.
>
>Thanks
>Mike Gray
There's a bunch of them on my workbench with the board stuffed
and waiting for checkout and packaging. I've been so busy with
current tasks that I've not been able to get back to finish them
and put them in the catalog. However, the wiring shown in various
figures is correct. If you wanted to plan on having one, you can
bring the wires to a suitable mounting location for later attachment.
I'll see if I can get it shown on the catalog with a photo and
installation details.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/03/01 |
Assuming worst case of 5' in both the
+14 and ground leads and 20AWG wire gives us two 10' 20AWG
paths in parallel for 5 milliohms per foot or 50 millioms
total. An 8A transmit draw would toss away 0.4 volts. Going
to 18AWG wire would reduce this drop to 0.25 volts . . . not
enough difference to be concerned with.
If it were my radio, I'd go with the 20AWG and standard
pins.
Bob . . .
Not to disagree, but.. One way to look at their rationale is that the
circuit breaker is there to protect the wire, not the device. The idea is
that the breaker will open before the wire can overheat. The breaker might
be sized to be twice the maximum current draw of the device, so in this case
I would suppose a 15 or 20 amp breaker would be specified. With a single 20
gage wire, 10 feet long there could be 11 watts of power dissipated along
its length without popping the breaker (this assumes a fault that would draw
the full 15 amps but not enough to trip the breaker). If both power and
ground are in the same loom that power is really dissipated over a 5 foot
length of harness. 11 watts in 5 feet will certainly get very hot, possibly
hot enough to cause damage or start a fire. I think that's the reason why
Garmin wanted an 18 gage wire. Just my guess.
ps: When I post a "reply" like this the original message isn't identified
by the "greater than" symbols when I see it posted. What am I doing wrong?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/03/01 |
Gary...
>>When I post a "reply" like this the original message isn't identified by
the "greater than" symbols when I see it posted. What am I doing wrong?<<
You mean like this?
Actually, you may be dong nothing wrong. It's up to the software you use
for your email to do it. If it's copying the message when you reply, then
that's about all it can do...some (like Outlook Express) automatically
offset the copied text with the greater than symbol, or if in rich text
format (HTML) it precedes the copied text with a continuous verticle line.
Check your options or preferences settings for your email software to see if
there is a setting there that can be changed.
As far as the line I copied to start this message, ...I do that
manually...saves having the entire text of the original message copied...I
just highlight what I want to reply to, then copy it into the reply message
body (ctrl-c, then ctrl-v, in Windows)(also in Outlook, one can "turn off"
the ability to copy the message being replied to in the options, so the
reply starts with a blank message) and then set it off with the symbols
myself.
Saves sending a lot of unnecessary text, and possibly confusing statements
that have nothing to do with what I'm replying to.
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Solder Sleeves and Heat Guns |
> >
> >DigiKey sells a similar 3M product in any quantity. These heat shrink
> solder
> >splices have a tin plated brass barrel in them that hold a solder disc. In
> >qty of 10 they are $0.49 to $0.77 each depending on size. See
> >http://www.digikey.com/ Page 550 in catalog.
> >
> >To go directly to the catalog page click this:
> >http://info.digikey.com/T011/V4/550.pdf
Radio Shack sells solder strips that you can use to wrap around the pigtail
and the sleeve or wire you are connecting to. Just put a piece of heat shrink
over it and hit with heat gun until the solder melts. I used this method for
installing pigtails on all my shielded wires an it worked well.
Kevin in WA
RV 9A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Solder Sleeves and Heat Guns |
I found the 3M solder sleeves in the Newark catalog also.
NEWARK cat#119 pg1109
3M solder splice connectors
16F3538 28-20 AWG $7.61 for 10
16F3539 24-14 AWG $5.02 for 10
16F3540 22-10 AWG $9.09 for 10
1-800-463-9275 www.newark.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - |
04/03/01
>
> Assuming worst case of 5' in both the
> +14 and ground leads and 20AWG wire gives us two 10' 20AWG
> paths in parallel for 5 milliohms per foot or 50 millioms
> total. An 8A transmit draw would toss away 0.4 volts. Going
> to 18AWG wire would reduce this drop to 0.25 volts . . . not
> enough difference to be concerned with.
>
> If it were my radio, I'd go with the 20AWG and standard
> pins.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>Not to disagree, but.. One way to look at their rationale is that the
>circuit breaker is there to protect the wire, not the device. The idea is
>that the breaker will open before the wire can overheat. The breaker might
>be sized to be twice the maximum current draw of the device, so in this case
>I would suppose a 15 or 20 amp breaker would be specified. With a single 20
>gage wire, 10 feet long there could be 11 watts of power dissipated along
>its length without popping the breaker (this assumes a fault that would draw
>the full 15 amps but not enough to trip the breaker). If both power and
>ground are in the same loom that power is really dissipated over a 5 foot
>length of harness. 11 watts in 5 feet will certainly get very hot, possibly
>hot enough to cause damage or start a fire. I think that's the reason why
>Garmin wanted an 18 gage wire. Just my guess.
We weren't talking about breakers at all. Even if the radio were
wired with a pair of 18AWG wires, the breaker would not have
to be any larger than what was necessary to carry the radio's
max current draw of 8A. Given the short duty cycle of transmitters
in airplanes, a 7.5A breaker would probably stay shut with
this radio . . . Check out the typical breaker rating chart
in the article at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf
It shows a typical Klixon time versus trip current as a percentage
of rating. At ambient, a breaker loaded with rated current
will never trip and at just 120% over rated it may never trip
but it might trip in 100 seconds or more. The radio doesn't
need to get an upsized breaker just because the wire is upsized
to reduce voltage drop. A 10A breaker is just fine for this
installation.
A pair of 20AWG wires sharing load can carry a total of 15A with
35 degree C temperature rise.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? |
>Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to supplement batteries.
>See for instance
>http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.htm. See also
>http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.htm. These
>capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller batteries in
>aircraft. The Glastar, for instance, is often nose-heavy. Perhaps an
>ultracapacitor can be put ahead of the firewall with short cables to the
>starter. The battery could be placed in the tailcone with lessened concern
>about the voltage drop from battery to starter.
>Any comments on this scheme ?
>-Vaso Bovan
Pretty slick . . . but they look to be a lot heavier
in terms of watt-seconds per pound. To be practical
in an airplane, I think you'd have to count on one of
two engine driven power sources being available and then
sizing the ultra-cap for perhaps 1.5 chances to crank
the engine. You could use very small . . . like perhaps
a 3-8 a.h. battery to charge the capacitor. I didn't see
any pricing on these . . . do you know anyone that's
using them in an engine cranking application?
Bob . . .
According to the Marketing department of NACC, the price of a typical
ultracapacitor - P/N MEC10S23H126.0 (12V/350F) - is $775.30 in single
quantities. Lead times are 9-10 weeks. This is probably a list price,
-Vaso
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? |
As I suspected, ultracapacitors do provide a way to trade $$$ to save some
weight. It still looks to me like titanium doodads are a bargain by
comparison.
I wouldn't look for the price to decline much in the near future, since this
is the price after they've gotten their production volumes up to supply the
handheld and cellphone markets. Of course, with the collapse of those
markets, they might be forced to lower their prices to keep those factories
busy, if any of us still have money to buy them.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vaso(at)Bovan.com [mailto:vaso(at)bovan.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:25 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ?
>
>
>
>
>
> >Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to
> supplement batteries.
> >See for instance
> >http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.ht
> m. See also
> >http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.
> htm. These
> >capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller
> batteries in
> >aircraft. The Glastar, for instance, is often nose-heavy. Perhaps an
> >ultracapacitor can be put ahead of the firewall with short
> cables to the
> >starter. The battery could be placed in the tailcone with
> lessened concern
> >about the voltage drop from battery to starter.
> >Any comments on this scheme ?
> >-Vaso Bovan
>
> Pretty slick . . . but they look to be a lot heavier
> in terms of watt-seconds per pound. To be practical
> in an airplane, I think you'd have to count on one of
> two engine driven power sources being available and then
> sizing the ultra-cap for perhaps 1.5 chances to crank
> the engine. You could use very small . . . like perhaps
> a 3-8 a.h. battery to charge the capacitor. I didn't see
> any pricing on these . . . do you know anyone that's
> using them in an engine cranking application?
> Bob . . .
>
> According to the Marketing department of NACC, the price of a typical
> ultracapacitor - P/N MEC10S23H126.0 (12V/350F) - is $775.30 in single
> quantities. Lead times are 9-10 weeks. This is probably a list price,
>
> -Vaso
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
| Subject: | Strobe shielding |
I'm building a RV9 and plan to install Bob Archer wingtip antennas. A comm
in one tip and the nav in the other tip. I'll also have wheelen
strobe/position lights in the tips powered by a single power supply in the
fusalage.
I'm concerned about interference from the strobe/nav lights. Can the wires
for the lights and the antenna be run together in the same conduit? Should I
order the "shielded" versions of the lights or maybe just use shielded wire
from the power supply?
I plan to use the RG400 shielded cable for the antennas, is this enough
protection?
I've heard from one pilot on the RV list that has a similar setup with no
problems but would like more opinions on the subject.
Thanks,
Cliff
RV9
Erie, CO
www.barefootpilot.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? |
>> According to the Marketing department of NACC, the price of a typical
>> ultracapacitor - P/N MEC10S23H126.0 (12V/350F) - is $775.30 in single
>> quantities. Lead times are 9-10 weeks. This is probably a list price,
>> -Vaso
> As I suspected, ultracapacitors do provide a way to trade $$$ to save some
> weight. It still looks to me like titanium doodads are a bargain by
> comparison.
> I wouldn't look for the price to decline much in the near future, since
> this is the price after they've gotten their production volumes up to
> supply the handheld and cellphone markets. Of course, with the collapse
> of those markets, they might be forced to lower their prices to keep those
> factories busy, if any of us still have money to buy them.
Actually, the price should come down rapidly once this new technology is
used in hybrid cars (for regenerative braking and load leveling). One
manufacturer, Maxwell, expects a price of $30/cell by 2003. Six or seven
cells form a 12V stack. Even at retail single quantities, the price for a
seven-cell stack should be under $400 within two years. See
http://www.maxwell.com/archives/jan03-01.html. At that price, it starts to
look attractive in experimental aircraft, for reasons listed earlier.
-Vaso
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Power Increase ? |
3-phase stator windings in alternators can be connected in "Star" or "Wye"
(Delta). If star-connected, the ends of the windings are joined at a single
neutral point. Due to harmonics, this point is really not neutral, and
according to one text on automobile alternators, if the neutral is brought
out and rectified, the alternator can produce 10% more power from ~3,000rpm
and up - at the expense of slightly more ripple in the alternator voltage.
So, can this extra power be captured in commercially-available alternators -
B&C's L-40, for instance - making it a 44A alternator ? Is the Star
neutral accessible in this alternator, or has it already been tapped and
rectified ?
-Vaso Bovan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | deltab(at)erols.com |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Power Increase ? |
Or buy a Toyota alternator. It's probably a ND. My 2001 MR2
is a wye configuration with a couple of "extra" diodes. I saw
this in my wiring diagram and wondered why they would add
parts and complexity. Now I know. Thanks.
Bernie C.
RV-0
"Vaso(at)Bovan.com" wrote:
>
>
> 3-phase stator windings in alternators can be connected in "Star" or "Wye"
> (Delta). If star-connected, the ends of the windings are joined at a single
> neutral point. Due to harmonics, this point is really not neutral, and
> according to one text on automobile alternators, if the neutral is brought
> out and rectified, the alternator can produce 10% more power from ~3,000rpm
> and up - at the expense of slightly more ripple in the alternator voltage.
>
> So, can this extra power be captured in commercially-available alternators -
> B&C's L-40, for instance - making it a 44A alternator ? Is the Star
> neutral accessible in this alternator, or has it already been tapped and
> rectified ?
>
> -Vaso Bovan
>
--
Go Pens!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Annette and Carl Coulter" <coulter(at)alaska.net> |
"AeroElectric-List Digest List"
| Subject: | solder sleeves (again) |
Try http://www.terminaltown.com
carl starting wings
Glastar 5802
***********************************************************
From: "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: solder sleeves (again)
Sorry to bring this up again, but I used the links from the previous email
to get the solder sleeve specs and the Raychem distributor search. I
checked with a few distributors around New England and they only sell in
quantities of 100. Did anyone have any luck finding small quantities?
Thanks, Gary K.
Pelican PL w/Stratus EA-81
painting and wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Power Increase ? |
>
>3-phase stator windings in alternators can be connected in "Star" or "Wye"
>(Delta). If star-connected, the ends of the windings are joined at a single
>neutral point.
Star and Wye are the same connection, while Delta is the "other"
format . . .
> Due to harmonics, this point is really not neutral,
This connection was used on early automotive alternators as
an output to tell the regulator that the alternator was spinning
and had a modicum of field excitation. This is the "stator" lead
that runs between some alternators and their associated regulators.
This output is sometimes used to close a field supply relay. The
alternator is initially excited through the idiot light circuit
with just enough field current to get some stator output - not
enough to begin delivering energy to the system but enough to
close the field relay.
This system has the advantage of automatic disconnect of field
excitation when the alternator is not spinning. The down side
of early designs was that if the idiot lamp burned out, the
alternator wouldn't come on line. Later cars added a resistor
across the lamp to supply initial excitation current irrespective
of lamp condition.
In some airplanes, this terminal is watched by a simple
voltage comparator to see that the alternator has both motion
and excitation to keep an idiot light turned off. I designed
several of these devices for both Beech and Cessna about
30 years ago.
There are some alternator designs that have 9 rectifiers
in their diode array as opposed to the more common 6. I've
not taken the time to understand the exact physics of how
these benefit the output but if an automotive manufacturer
with a need for hundreds of thousands of alternators sez
it's a good thing to do, you can probably take that proposition
to the bank. The nominal DC output voltage from this
terminal is 1/2 of bus voltage but it may have waveform peaks that
exceed bus voltage thereby offering an opportunity to pipe
a few more amps of output to the system.
> and
>according to one text on automobile alternators, if the neutral is brought
>out and rectified, the alternator can produce 10% more power from ~3,000rpm
>and up - at the expense of slightly more ripple in the alternator voltage.
>
>So, can this extra power be captured in commercially-available alternators -
>B&C's L-40, for instance - making it a 44A alternator ? Is the Star
>neutral accessible in this alternator, or has it already been tapped and
>rectified ?
You can ask B&C how their ND alternators are wound. I probably
knew at one time but it has been about ten years since
I had one apart and don't recall.
I would counsel come caution about modifying a perfectly good
alternator . . . there is risk of reducing reliability as
a result of inexperience with the task . . . 10% isn't much
to gain for your efforts. 95+ percent of my readers are
doing full up IFR airplanes with 30 amps or less running loads.
This leaves you with 25% or more overhead from a 40A alternator
with no risk of degrading a demonstrably bullet-proof alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe shielding |
>
>I'm building a RV9 and plan to install Bob Archer wingtip antennas. A comm
>in one tip and the nav in the other tip. I'll also have wheelen
>strobe/position lights in the tips powered by a single power supply in the
>fusalage.
>
>I'm concerned about interference from the strobe/nav lights. Can the wires
>for the lights and the antenna be run together in the same conduit? Should I
>order the "shielded" versions of the lights or maybe just use shielded wire
>from the power supply?
>I plan to use the RG400 shielded cable for the antennas, is this enough
>protection?
>I've heard from one pilot on the RV list that has a similar setup with no
>problems but would like more opinions on the subject.
>Thanks,
>Cliff
>RV9
>Erie, CO
>www.barefootpilot.com
I've never seen a problem with noise coupled between
properly installed antenna coaxes and wiring to other systems.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Solder Sleeves and Heat Guns |
>
>
>> >
>> >DigiKey sells a similar 3M product in any quantity. These heat shrink
>> solder
>> >splices have a tin plated brass barrel in them that hold a solder disc. In
>> >qty of 10 they are $0.49 to $0.77 each depending on size. See
>> >http://www.digikey.com/ Page 550 in catalog.
>> >
>> >To go directly to the catalog page click this:
>> >http://info.digikey.com/T011/V4/550.pdf
Just got my samples of this product. These are splices only.
They wrap a cylinder of solderable material in a high
temperature heat shrink. There is a solid pellet of solder
inside the cylinder at the center.
There are retention tangs punched through the cylinder wall
to sort of grab the stripped ends of the wires to hold them
in place while heat is applied.
I've posted a teardown photo of this product at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/3Msplices.jpg
The SMALLEST of these devices is suitable for splicing
wires no smaller than about 18AWG; the largest that I
took apart for the photo would be good for much bigger
wires but takes one hellofa heatgun to do the job.
These things have 3M's name on them so I have to believe
they're fairly suited to some tasks. Given that they cannot
replace a solder sleeve for attaching pigtails to shielded
wire -and- that they only replace a crimped butt splice,
I wouldn't recommend these for use in your airplane.
>Radio Shack sells solder strips that you can use to wrap around the pigtail
>and the sleeve or wire you are connecting to. Just put a piece of heat shrink
>over it and hit with heat gun until the solder melts. I used this method for
>installing pigtails on all my shielded wires an it worked well.
>Kevin in WA
>RV 9A
Solder comes in lots of fancy forms . . . the CRITICAL thing
about solder is ALLOY ratio (63/37 best 60/40 quite usable),
alloy PURITY (you can only be sure with name brands that offer
products to stringent specs) and FLUX (Again the name brands
that cater to high-dollar markets). Good solder
from Kester, Ersin, or any other brand where spool is labled
with a QPL or MIL-S-571 label is not hard to find and relieves
one of any concerns for quality and suitability to the task.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Snively" <craigsn(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Solder Sleeves and Heat Guns |
Bob, do you know of a source of these types of sleeves that have pig-tails
already attached?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Solder Sleeves and Heat Guns
>
> >
> >
> >> >
> >> >DigiKey sells a similar 3M product in any quantity. These heat shrink
> >> solder
> >> >splices have a tin plated brass barrel in them that hold a solder
disc. In
> >> >qty of 10 they are $0.49 to $0.77 each depending on size. See
> >> >http://www.digikey.com/ Page 550 in catalog.
> >> >
> >> >To go directly to the catalog page click this:
> >> >http://info.digikey.com/T011/V4/550.pdf
>
> Just got my samples of this product. These are splices only.
> They wrap a cylinder of solderable material in a high
> temperature heat shrink. There is a solid pellet of solder
> inside the cylinder at the center.
>
> There are retention tangs punched through the cylinder wall
> to sort of grab the stripped ends of the wires to hold them
> in place while heat is applied.
>
> I've posted a teardown photo of this product at:
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/3Msplices.jpg
>
> The SMALLEST of these devices is suitable for splicing
> wires no smaller than about 18AWG; the largest that I
> took apart for the photo would be good for much bigger
> wires but takes one hellofa heatgun to do the job.
>
> These things have 3M's name on them so I have to believe
> they're fairly suited to some tasks. Given that they cannot
> replace a solder sleeve for attaching pigtails to shielded
> wire -and- that they only replace a crimped butt splice,
> I wouldn't recommend these for use in your airplane.
>
> >Radio Shack sells solder strips that you can use to wrap around the
pigtail
> >and the sleeve or wire you are connecting to. Just put a piece of heat
shrink
> >over it and hit with heat gun until the solder melts. I used this method
for
> >installing pigtails on all my shielded wires an it worked well.
> >Kevin in WA
> >RV 9A
>
> Solder comes in lots of fancy forms . . . the CRITICAL thing
> about solder is ALLOY ratio (63/37 best 60/40 quite usable),
> alloy PURITY (you can only be sure with name brands that offer
> products to stringent specs) and FLUX (Again the name brands
> that cater to high-dollar markets). Good solder
> from Kester, Ersin, or any other brand where spool is labled
> with a QPL or MIL-S-571 label is not hard to find and relieves
> one of any concerns for quality and suitability to the task.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: load anaylsis |
Bob
I asked a question that got lost do to a problem with a changed
Email address.
My question was; where or how do I find the current requirements
for the different items on my electrical diagram. Most items give a
breaker size only that I can see. Radios must use much less
when receiving than when sending, for instance. Any direction on
this matter?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solder Sleeves |
>
>Bob, do you know of a source of these types of sleeves that have pig-tails
>already attached?
There are lots of folks who handle Raychem products.
Download these documents from Raychem's website which are
selection guide, data sheet and installation guide for this
genre of products.
http://interconnect.raychem.com/pdf/h54683.pdf
http://interconnect.raychem.com/pdf/h54681.pdf
http://interconnect.raychem.com/pdf/h54682.pdf
then click on this link to find a distributor near you:
http://interconnect.raychem.com/indexf.html
I buy from A.E. Petsche who has warehouses
all over the country. I buy in full boxes of 100
pieces. They don't sell small quantities. John
at http://www.terminaltown.com/ used to offer
small quantities but he's trying to sell out
his business and isn't taking orders.
You can do your own impersonation of solder sleeve
with the technique I published at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html
I only use solder sleeves for my customers that demand and/or
expect them. I terminate about as many shield pigtails with
the poor-man's technique as with solder sleeves.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: load anaylsis |
>
>Bob
>I asked a question that got lost do to a problem with a changed
>Email address.
>My question was; where or how do I find the current requirements
>for the different items on my electrical diagram. Most items give a
>breaker size only that I can see. Radios must use much less
>when receiving than when sending, for instance. Any direction on
>this matter?
>Jim
This information should be available from the manufacturer
of the item or calculated from it's rating. For example,
a 55W landing light bulb would draw 55(w)/13(v)=4.2Amps
A 100W pitot tube will need 100/13 = 7.7A
Or you get the data from the manufacturer's literature
for the product. Radios, pumps, etc should have information
in the tech manual about how much the device draws under
various operating conditions.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Power Increase ? |
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Power Increase ?
>
>>AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vaso(at)Bovan.com"
>>3-phase stator windings in alternators can be connected in
>>"Star" or "Wye" (Delta). If star-connected, the ends of the
>>windings are joined at a single neutral point.
> Star and Wye are the same connection, while Delta is the "other"
> format . . .
That's an embarrassing typo made by copying the poorly translated German
Bosch text. I meant to say '"Star"/"Wye" (Delta connection sometimes ?)'.
The source is the 3rd edition of Bosch/SAE's Automotive Electrics and
Electronics", 1999 - a very useful book, available from SAE but apparently
not from Amazon.
>> Due to harmonics, this point is really not neutral,
> This connection was used on early automotive alternators as
> an output to tell the regulator that the alternator was spinning
> and had a modicum of field excitation. This is the "stator" lead
> that runs between some alternators and their associated regulators.
> This output is sometimes used to close a field supply relay. The
> alternator is initially excited through the idiot light circuit
> with just enough field current to get some stator output - not
> enough to begin delivering energy to the system but enough to
> close the field relay.
> This system has the advantage of automatic disconnect of field
> excitation when the alternator is not spinning. The down side
> of early designs was that if the idiot lamp burned out, the
> alternator wouldn't come on line. Later cars added a resistor
> across the lamp to supply initial excitation current irrespective
> of lamp condition.
Am I missing something in your schematics ? I don't see a resistor across
the alternator light in your schematics. Will the alternator in your
schematics start if the idiot light is burned out ?
> In some airplanes, this terminal is watched by a simple
> voltage comparator to see that the alternator has both motion
> and excitation to keep an idiot light turned off. I designed
> several of these devices for both Beech and Cessna about
> 30 years ago.
> There are some alternator designs that have 9 rectifiers
> in their diode array as opposed to the more common 6. I've
> not taken the time to understand the exact physics of how
> these benefit the output but if an automotive manufacturer
> with a need for hundreds of thousands of alternators sez
> it's a good thing to do, you can probably take that proposition
> to the bank. The nominal DC output voltage from this terminal
> is 1/2 [!] of bus voltage but it may have waveform peaks that
> exceed bus voltage thereby offering an opportunity to pipe
> a few more amps of output to the system.
>>and according to one text on automobile alternators, if the neutral
>>is brought out and rectified, the alternator can produce 10% more power
>>from ~3,000rpm and up - at the expense of slightly more ripple in the
>>alternator voltage.
>>So, can this extra power be captured in commercially-available
>>alternators - B&C's L-40, for instance - making it a 44A alternator ?
>>Is the Star neutral accessible in this alternator, or has it already
>>been tapped and rectified ?
> You can ask B&C how their ND alternators are wound. I probably
> knew at one time but it has been about ten years since
> I had one apart and don't recall.
I did. B&C hasn't responded.
> I would counsel come caution about modifying a perfectly good
> alternator . . . there is risk of reducing reliability as
> a result of inexperience with the task . . . 10% isn't much
> to gain for your efforts. 95+ percent of my readers are
> doing full up IFR airplanes with 30 amps or less running loads.
> This leaves you with 25% or more overhead from a 40A alternator
> with no risk of degrading a demonstrably bullet-proof alternator.
> Bob . . .
Those who can't leave well enough alone and are rebuilding used, smaller,
marginal alternators where 10% is useful, might consider experimenting with
replacing the six diode rectifier set with an eight diode rectifier set.
Renard Manufacturing, for instance, one of the world's largest independent
manufacturers of alternator rectifiers, manufacturer what they claim are
"better than original" rectifier sets for OEM alternators. Renard claims the
original sets are build to cost, and that Renard's sets offer better heat
dissipation, more robust diodes, and better environmental protection. Renard
offers replacement rectifier sets for most alternators. For Nippondenso,
there are eight-diode rectifier sets designed to replace six diode sets (for
example, set #11231 replaces the six-diode set used in certain Toyota
Nippondenso alternators). It appears the extra two diodes tap the wye
neutral, because the exciter "trio" set of rectifiers is separate. I have an
old catalog, and Renard appears to have lost its website presence since
being bought out by Wetherill Associates. The phone number is 800.327.7244.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Ultracapacitors Supplement Batteries ? |
>>>Several companies are introducing ultracapacitors to supplement
batteries. >See for instance
http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/engine.htm. See also
http://www.nacc-mallory.com/catalog/electrochemical/starting.htm. These
capacitors appears to offer the possibility of using smaller batteries in
aircraft.<<<
>>Pretty slick . . . but they look to be a lot heavier in terms of
watt-seconds per pound. To be practical in an airplane, I think you'd have
to count on one of two engine driven power sources being available and then
sizing the ultra-cap for perhaps 1.5 chances to crank the engine. You could
use very small . . . like perhaps a 3-8 a.h. battery to charge the
capacitor. I didn't see any pricing on these . . . Bob<<
>According to the Marketing department of NACC, the price of a typical
ultracapacitor - P/N MEC10S23H126.0 (12V/350F) - is $775.30 in single
quantities. Lead times are 9-10 weeks. This is probably a list price, -Vaso<
Another alternative is one Bob suggested more than a year ago - Bolder TMF
batteries. These specially designed true batteries are competitors to the
ultracapacitor. Bolder was going to offer a small 12V battery pack, but this
was withdrawn - apparently because Bolder found a flaw in the packaging and
didn't have development resources to devote to this niche product. Instead,
Bolder put its resources into the SecureStart line of engine starting
systems. See www.boldertmf.com. Unfortunately it appears Bolder is going
bankrupt, so this entire TMF technology may not survive. I see several
stores, including Pep Boys, carry SecureStart systems. These are built
around the Bolder TMF batteries. The price at Western Marine is $111, for a
system that gives 600 amperes (?) for several seconds, in a package weighing
less than five pounds. So, someone waiting for the ultracapacitor price to
come down could buy a SecureStart system for $111, take out the cells, and
put them in their kitplane close to the starter. If the TMF batteries last
only three years, they can be replaced with ultracapacitors which should be
much cheaper at that time.
-Vaso
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Kellar" <rkellar(at)mediaone.net> |
| Subject: | Instrument light questions |
Dear Bob,
I have installed your dimmer for the instrument lights. In the circuit
drawing, there wasn't a switch for the power to the dimmer, it was wired
through a fuse from the buss. I assumed the dimmer would essientially turn
the lights off however on trying the system out, I note that there is a
visable amount of light present with the potentionmeter turned fully down.
Is this by design? Is there benefit to keeping a small amount of current
running through the lights at all times? Is there a gain to inserting a
switch into the power to dimmer circuit to completely stop current to the
lights when not in use? On a more embarrsing note, I have lost the small
flat nut that holds the pot in the panel. It seems to be a odd size. Can
you tell me the size of the nut, threads etc. Those flat nuts are hard to
find locally (Radio Shack etc.) Thanks for your help.
I recently bemoaned the failure of a fuel gage due to the installation of
the sender in backwards. Further study confirms that the senders were
mounted differently. One has 0 ohms at empty and the other has 100+ at
empty. As I mentioned, I have Mitchell gauges and on calling their company
number, they have gauges that work with both high and low resistance at
empty. They have offered to let me exchange the gauge at only the cost of
shipping so I should soon have both needles moving the same direction when
empty or full. Good customer service deserves a pat on the back from all of
us. Bob Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Calvert" <rv6bldr(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument light questions |
Bob, you can wire your instrument lights in with your nav lights.
Jerry Calvert
Edmond Ok
-6 fuselage finish kit
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kellar <rkellar(at)mediaone.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 12:20 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument light questions
>
> Dear Bob,
> I have installed your dimmer for the instrument lights. In the circuit
> drawing, there wasn't a switch for the power to the dimmer, it was wired
> through a fuse from the buss. I assumed the dimmer would essientially
turn
> the lights off however on trying the system out, I note that there is a
> visable amount of light present with the potentionmeter turned fully down.
> Is this by design? Is there benefit to keeping a small amount of current
> running through the lights at all times? Is there a gain to inserting a
> switch into the power to dimmer circuit to completely stop current to the
> lights when not in use? On a more embarrsing note, I have lost the small
> flat nut that holds the pot in the panel. It seems to be a odd size. Can
> you tell me the size of the nut, threads etc. Those flat nuts are hard to
> find locally (Radio Shack etc.) Thanks for your help.
> I recently bemoaned the failure of a fuel gage due to the installation of
> the sender in backwards. Further study confirms that the senders were
> mounted differently. One has 0 ohms at empty and the other has 100+ at
> empty. As I mentioned, I have Mitchell gauges and on calling their
company
> number, they have gauges that work with both high and low resistance at
> empty. They have offered to let me exchange the gauge at only the cost of
> shipping so I should soon have both needles moving the same direction when
> empty or full. Good customer service deserves a pat on the back from all
of
> us. Bob Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Heat Shrink Source |
What is a good source of Heat Shrink? It's going to take a lot to wire
my panel, and the small batches I've found at Radio Shack and elsewhere
are pretty steep.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jim jewell" <jjewell(at)okanagan.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heat Shrink Source |
Hi Charles,
Look for electronics suppliers in your phone Book.
You will find that there are at least a few types to choose from, a number
of colors, One type has a hot melt sealer inside for those connections that
will see the weather first hand.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heat Shrink Source
>
> What is a good source of Heat Shrink? It's going to take a lot to wire
> my panel, and the small batches I've found at Radio Shack and elsewhere
> are pretty steep.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | 'electric Bob's plug temporarily pulled . . . |
Got called to a pretty serious meeting on an avionics problem
and left town last Sunday . . . just got home a few minutes ago
and will be getting on an airplane 6:30 a.m. tomorrow. Will be
out of contact with my favorite airplane builders for a few
more days.
Just thought I'd let folks know before I "disappear" for awhile.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heat Shrink Source |
>
>What is a good source of Heat Shrink? It's going to take a lot to wire
>my panel, and the small batches I've found at Radio Shack and elsewhere
>are pretty steep.
Try:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#s817c
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Instrument light questions |
>
>Bob, you can wire your instrument lights in with your nav lights.
Why would you want to do this? I know Piper did it so that there
was one less switch to put on the panel . . . actually, Piper
wired a on/off switch to the panel dimmer potentiometer so that
if you turned up your panel lights, the nav lights would come
on automatically.
I like to keep systems as separate as practical . . . this way
it's less likely that a single failure will bring down more than
one system.
The instrument light dimmer drops the panel lights to 4 volts
when max dim . . . no need to put a switch in this system, just
let 'em run at the minimum voltage for useful output. They'll
more than likely last the lifetime of the airplane and you don't
need to add another switch.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument light questions |
>
>Dear Bob,
>I have installed your dimmer for the instrument lights. In the circuit
>drawing, there wasn't a switch for the power to the dimmer, it was wired
>through a fuse from the buss. I assumed the dimmer would essientially turn
>the lights off however on trying the system out, I note that there is a
>visable amount of light present with the potentionmeter turned fully down.
>Is this by design?
yes. 4 volts is the lowest you'd want to run them in normal service.
We don't want the pot to go all the way to zero 'cause the first 4 volts
of rotation produces no useful action on the lights. Just leave them
ON all the time and turned down when not in use.
> Is there benefit to keeping a small amount of current
>running through the lights at all times?
Yes, see chapter in book on lighting
> Is there a gain to inserting a
>switch into the power to dimmer circuit to completely stop current to the
>lights when not in use?
no
>On a more embarrsing note, I have lost the small
>flat nut that holds the pot in the panel. It seems to be a odd size. Can
>you tell me the size of the nut, threads etc. Those flat nuts are hard to
>find locally (Radio Shack etc.)
Hmmm . . do you have the round metal pot or a blue plastic square
one?
> Thanks for your help.
> I recently bemoaned the failure of a fuel gage due to the installation of
>the sender in backwards. Further study confirms that the senders were
>mounted differently. One has 0 ohms at empty and the other has 100+ at
>empty. As I mentioned, I have Mitchell gauges and on calling their company
>number, they have gauges that work with both high and low resistance at
>empty. They have offered to let me exchange the gauge at only the cost of
>shipping so I should soon have both needles moving the same direction when
>empty or full. Good customer service deserves a pat on the back from all of
>us. Bob Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
>
Great! Nice to hear they're taking care of you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Power Increase ? |
>
>>> Due to harmonics, this point is really not neutral,
>
>> This connection was used on early automotive alternators as
>> an output to tell the regulator that the alternator was spinning
>> and had a modicum of field excitation. This is the "stator" lead
>> that runs between some alternators and their associated regulators.
>> This output is sometimes used to close a field supply relay. The
>> alternator is initially excited through the idiot light circuit
>> with just enough field current to get some stator output - not
>> enough to begin delivering energy to the system but enough to
>> close the field relay.
>> This system has the advantage of automatic disconnect of field
>> excitation when the alternator is not spinning. The down side
>> of early designs was that if the idiot lamp burned out, the
>> alternator wouldn't come on line. Later cars added a resistor
>> across the lamp to supply initial excitation current irrespective
>> of lamp condition.
>
>Am I missing something in your schematics ? I don't see a resistor across
>the alternator light in your schematics. Will the alternator in your
>schematics start if the idiot light is burned out ?
No, this was purely an AUTOMOTIVE problem with early designs (read
pre 1970). Our regulators do not depend on the neutral connection nor
do they depend on continuity through the lamp for functinality.
>> In some airplanes, this terminal is watched by a simple
>> voltage comparator to see that the alternator has both motion
>> and excitation to keep an idiot light turned off. I designed
>> several of these devices for both Beech and Cessna about
>> 30 years ago.
>> There are some alternator designs that have 9 rectifiers
>> in their diode array as opposed to the more common 6. I've
>> not taken the time to understand the exact physics of how
>> these benefit the output but if an automotive manufacturer
>> with a need for hundreds of thousands of alternators sez
>> it's a good thing to do, you can probably take that proposition
>> to the bank. The nominal DC output voltage from this terminal
>> is 1/2 [!] of bus voltage but it may have waveform peaks that
>> exceed bus voltage thereby offering an opportunity to pipe
>> a few more amps of output to the system.
>
>
>>>and according to one text on automobile alternators, if the neutral
>>>is brought out and rectified, the alternator can produce 10% more power
>>>from ~3,000rpm and up - at the expense of slightly more ripple in the
>>>alternator voltage.
>>>So, can this extra power be captured in commercially-available
>>>alternators - B&C's L-40, for instance - making it a 44A alternator ?
>>>Is the Star neutral accessible in this alternator, or has it already
>>>been tapped and rectified ?
>
>> You can ask B&C how their ND alternators are wound. I probably
>> knew at one time but it has been about ten years since
>> I had one apart and don't recall.
>
>I did. B&C hasn't responded.
They've been REALLY busy lately and are now at Sun-n-Fun . . .
wait about a week and call them. Ask for Tim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Whelen Post lights |
Does anyone know how much amps each Whelen Post light takes? Trying to
figure out what size dimmer to get.
Regards,
Tom Velvick
Peoria, AZ
rv-4 N9233A
rv-6a N188KJ wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Heat Shrink Source |
In a message dated 4/10/01 4:19:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
charleyb(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< What is a good source of Heat Shrink? >>
If you don't have an electronics supply store inn your area, other than RS
of course, try Mouser Electronics (800-346-6873, www.mouser.com).
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Kellar" <rkellar(at)mediaone.net> |
| Subject: | Lost nut (singular) |
>On a more embarrsing note, I have lost the small
>flat nut that holds the pot in the panel. It seems to be a odd size. Can
>you tell me the size of the nut, threads etc. Those flat nuts are hard to
>find locally (Radio Shack etc.)
Hmmm . . do you have the round metal pot or a blue plastic square
one?
I have the round metal pot. Bob Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> |
I have been considering eliminating the Master solenoid and going with a
simple 70amp pull switch like the one AS&S sells. Is there any reason to
have a solenoid?
Ed Perry
eperry(at)san.rr.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Polyfuses and Thyristors |
I hope I am not beating a dead horse here, but I am considering using
polyfuses in my homebuilt. As I understand Bob's objection, he only took
issue with EXP's claim that their bus product didn't really save time or
money, and I thought that analysis in order. I don't think there was any
objection to the technology of polyfuses, though.
The reason I am considering them, is that I want to provide a place for the
power distribution that provides overvoltage protection, circuit failure
notification, perhaps some rf filtering, and battery condition
monitoring. This means I need a place to mount a PC board. Once I go to
the trouble to mount a PC board for all that, polyfuses take up less space
than a fuse block, cost less, and don't have to be replaced.
So, what is wrong with this thinking? (Yeah, I'm asking for it ;
)
Also, anyone know why Raychem's SiBar Thyristor wouldn't serve as an
adequate overvoltage device? This device has marketing aimed at protecting
telecommunications equipment from lightning, but triggers at a defined
point. Isn't lighting protection for electronics necessary in an aircraft?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergkyle" <ve3lvo(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers.....
Having put 15 years into the Lockheed L1011 TriStar, I have
great respect for the team who designed her. One great fillip was the
landing radar which gave you an increasing-rapid 'pip' as you descended from
150 to 50 feet above terrain on approach. Then silence, and the other pilot
would give you a "30 feet" so as to judge rate of closure with the wheels.
It was possible to level out accurately enough to tip on the Wheel light,
which lit whenever the bogeys tipped off 90 degrees to the leg, and then
let it 'fall' two inches...!
I'm installing the same sort of device in my 2-seater. It
measures height from 1.5 metres (5 feet) to 5 cm (2inches) - but to get a
sliding tone, I need an LM566 function generator, a chip no longer made by
National Semiconductor or Philips. If you know of one, I'll trade you the
plans for the chip...........
Ferg Kyle Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hausding, Sid" <sid(at)freeway.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
Where do we go to view polyfuses? Url, or address.....
Sid Alpena, Michigan Avid Mark IV speedwing, 582 taildragger
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 11:41 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses and Thyristors
:
:
: I hope I am not beating a dead horse here, but I am considering using
: polyfuses in my homebuilt. As I understand Bob's objection, he only took
: issue with EXP's claim that their bus product didn't really save time or
: money, and I thought that analysis in order. I don't think there was any
: objection to the technology of polyfuses, though.
:
: The reason I am considering them, is that I want to provide a place for
the
: power distribution that provides overvoltage protection, circuit failure
: notification, perhaps some rf filtering, and battery condition
: monitoring. This means I need a place to mount a PC board. Once I go to
: the trouble to mount a PC board for all that, polyfuses take up less space
: than a fuse block, cost less, and don't have to be replaced.
:
: So, what is wrong with this thinking? (Yeah, I'm asking for it ;
)
:
: Also, anyone know why Raychem's SiBar Thyristor wouldn't serve as an
: adequate overvoltage device? This device has marketing aimed at
protecting
: telecommunications equipment from lightning, but triggers at a defined
: point. Isn't lighting protection for electronics necessary in an
aircraft?
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
>
>Where do we go to view polyfuses? Url, or address.....
>Sid Alpena, Michigan Avid Mark IV speedwing, 582 taildragger
>
Sid -
Here's the url for Rachem:
http://www.circuitprotection.com/servletwl1/FileDownloader/slot110/11613/Catalog_qxd.pdf
I know diddly about this product, but saved this url which Bob provided.
Bill
RANS S-7/912 in progress
Castro Valley, Calif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
At 13:32 2001.04.12., you wrote:
>
>Where do we go to view polyfuses? Url, or address.....
>Sid Alpena, Michigan Avid Mark IV speedwing, 582 taildragger
You can see all the specs at www.raychem.com (the manufacturer) and take
the "circuit protection" link. Also, you can get ordering info from mouser
or digikey catalogs.
I've been playing around with them, and they seem to work as advertised,
although I will have to take their word for the reliability numbers, which
exceed circuit breakers by quite a bit.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David J. Spencer" <djohnspe(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Antenna Spacing? |
Bob...
Thanks for all the vital information as I do a lot of my own maintenance.
I am installing (under supervision) an ADF (I know the world is going to be
WAAS controlled, but
I continue to be rather eccentric). My problem is antenna spacing. Collins
(S-TEC)
recommends that the ADF be placed just aft of the wings on as flat a plane
as possible. The plane, a Beech A23-24, had an ADF about 6 feet aft of the
wings on the upturned part of the fuselage. The marker beacon and
transponder were (side-by-side) just as the fuselage turns upward aft of the
wings. All that was ripped out (but...they left all the wiring) except the
marker
beacon which remains at the upturn juncture.
My problem is:
According to the installation manual: "The antenna should be mounted on a
horizontal surface (in normal straight-line flight attitude) to minimize
error when the aircraft is banked. A delayed station passage indication
will occur if the antenna is mounted in a nose down attitude"
If I place the ADF so far aft as originally installed it WILL be pointed
nose down.
My question is:
Can I place the ADF antenna on the opposite side of the fuselage from the
marker beacon (just aft of the wings) or should I move the marker to another
location. Can I put the marker close (2-3 feet) to the transponder antenna
or strobe which are forward on the fuselage belly?
Any help will be appreciated...
Thanks,
David J. Spencer
Tel: 972.283.0021
Email: djs(at)Group54.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
>
>>
>>Where do we go to view polyfuses? Url, or address.....
>>Sid Alpena, Michigan Avid Mark IV speedwing, 582 taildragger
>
>You can see all the specs at www.raychem.com (the manufacturer) and take
>the "circuit protection" link. Also, you can get ordering info from mouser
>or digikey catalogs.
>
>I've been playing around with them, and they seem to work as advertised,
>although I will have to take their word for the reliability numbers, which
>exceed circuit breakers by quite a bit.
As an electrical component, the polyfuse will function as
advertised. But how are you going to mount a device designed
to be part of a product . . i.e. soldered to an etched
circuit board? Unlike breakers or most fuseholders,
the polyswitch has no provisions for vibration resistant
mounting or convenient features for reliable attachement
of wires . . . the polyswitch has solid leads . . .
. . . and once you've gone to the trouble to design reliable
mounting, what value do they add to your system over fuses/
breakers that will justify the time and effort?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>:
>: Also, anyone know why Raychem's SiBar Thyristor wouldn't serve as an
>: adequate overvoltage device? This device has marketing aimed at
>protecting
>: telecommunications equipment from lightning, but triggers at a defined
>: point. Isn't lighting protection for electronics necessary in an
>aircraft?
These devices are designed for low duration, high voltage pulse
dissipation. They're won't provide feedback to the field of
a runaway alternator to shut it down when the bus exceeds 16.5
volts.
We do lightning protection in Bizjets but you don't even want
to think about it for your homebuilt. By and large, after I've
got a product working to performance specifications, the additional
parts and testing needed to stand off lightning increases parts
count by 25-50%. The last gizmo I qualified, lighting parts
doubled the size of the etched circuit board and increased
parts cost by abou5 50%.
Your very best lightning protection is to not fly into
thunderstorms. Even if the lightning doesn't get you, there
are other, equally nasty things living in there.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Master solonoid |
>
>
>I have been considering eliminating the Master solenoid and going with a
>simple 70amp pull switch like the one AS&S sells. Is there any reason to
>have a solenoid?
What kind of alternator do you have? Is there a big
value in saving 1 amp of battery contactor current?
A mechanical switch is fine, lots of older certified
ships have them. They still need to be both convenient
to pilot operation and close to the battery.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Landing Radar" |
>
>Cheers.....
> Having put 15 years into the Lockheed L1011 TriStar, I have
>great respect for the team who designed her. One great fillip was the
>landing radar which gave you an increasing-rapid 'pip' as you descended from
>150 to 50 feet above terrain on approach. Then silence, and the other pilot
>would give you a "30 feet" so as to judge rate of closure with the wheels.
>It was possible to level out accurately enough to tip on the Wheel light,
>which lit whenever the bogeys tipped off 90 degrees to the leg, and then
>let it 'fall' two inches...!
> I'm installing the same sort of device in my 2-seater. It
>measures height from 1.5 metres (5 feet) to 5 cm (2inches) - but to get a
>sliding tone, I need an LM566 function generator, a chip no longer made by
>National Semiconductor or Philips. If you know of one, I'll trade you the
>plans for the chip...........
>Ferg Kyle Europa A064
How about an LM331?
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM331.html
Digikey has stock:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/US/DKSUS.dll?Criteria?Ref=71989&Cat=17039842
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Landing Radar" |
Mornin', Ferg...
>>I need an LM566 function generator<<
I rescued a large number of chips from my company when they were bought out
a few years back, digital and linear.
I never inventoried them to see what I had, but this gave me the
opportunity!
Needless to say, no 566s! I do have a good selection of TTL (74 series) and
other isolaters, etc.
I took the opprtunity, also to look up the 566 in my cross reference, and
found that Sylvania made an exact replcement for it, the ECG994 (8 pin can)
and the ECG994M (8 pin DIP) if that can help in your search.
Harley Dixon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hausding, Sid" <sid(at)freeway.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
VERY good points Bob.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Polyfuses and Thyristors
:
:
: >
: >>
: >>Where do we go to view polyfuses? Url, or address.....
: >>Sid Alpena, Michigan Avid Mark IV speedwing, 582 taildragger
: >
: >You can see all the specs at www.raychem.com (the manufacturer) and take
: >the "circuit protection" link. Also, you can get ordering info from
mouser
: >or digikey catalogs.
: >
: >I've been playing around with them, and they seem to work as advertised,
: >although I will have to take their word for the reliability numbers,
which
: >exceed circuit breakers by quite a bit.
:
: As an electrical component, the polyfuse will function as
: advertised. But how are you going to mount a device designed
: to be part of a product . . i.e. soldered to an etched
: circuit board? Unlike breakers or most fuseholders,
: the polyswitch has no provisions for vibration resistant
: mounting or convenient features for reliable attachement
: of wires . . . the polyswitch has solid leads . . .
:
: . . . and once you've gone to the trouble to design reliable
: mounting, what value do they add to your system over fuses/
: breakers that will justify the time and effort?
:
:
: Bob . . .
: ---------------------------------------------------
: ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
: ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
: ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
: --------------------------------------------------
: http://www.aeroelectric.com
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Spacing? |
>
>Bob...
>
>Thanks for all the vital information as I do a lot of my own maintenance.
>
>I am installing (under supervision) an ADF (I know the world is going to be
>WAAS controlled, but
>I continue to be rather eccentric). My problem is antenna spacing. Collins
>(S-TEC)
>recommends that the ADF be placed just aft of the wings on as flat a plane
>as possible. The plane, a Beech A23-24, had an ADF about 6 feet aft of the
>wings on the upturned part of the fuselage. The marker beacon and
>transponder were (side-by-side) just as the fuselage turns upward aft of the
>wings. All that was ripped out (but...they left all the wiring) except the
>marker
>beacon which remains at the upturn juncture.
>
>My problem is:
>According to the installation manual: "The antenna should be mounted on a
>horizontal surface (in normal straight-line flight attitude) to minimize
>error when the aircraft is banked. A delayed station passage indication
>will occur if the antenna is mounted in a nose down attitude"
>If I place the ADF so far aft as originally installed it WILL be pointed
>nose down.
Yeah . . . but not very much nose down . . . the time when
station passage is really critical is using the marker beacons
in the low altitude approach phase . . . from 1000 feet off the
ground, a 10 degree tilt in the antenna would cause the station
passage event to trail behind you about 175 feet. At 90 kts,
this translates into about 0.8 second delay in indicating
station passage . . . a trivial concern.
>My question is:
>Can I place the ADF antenna on the opposite side of the fuselage from the
>marker beacon (just aft of the wings) or should I move the marker to another
>location. Can I put the marker close (2-3 feet) to the transponder antenna
>or strobe which are forward on the fuselage belly?
>
>Any help will be appreciated...
I think it would probably perform well there too . . . you might
hear the strobe "pop" in the received audio (irritating if you
like to listen to ball games or talk radio) but it would have
negligible effect on the radio's ability to point at ground
stations.
I think I'd put the new antenna in the same location as the
old ADF antenna.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Whelen Post lights |
>
>Does anyone know how much amps each Whelen Post light takes? Trying to
>figure out what size dimmer to get.
There are several lamps that will fit the fixture.
#330 (most common) 0.08A
#382 (longer life, slightly dimmer version of #330) 0.08A
#394 0.04A
#8918 (bright) 0.10A
I'd recommend the #330 at 0.08A per lamp.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
>Hi Bob,
Thanks for responding about the polyfuses. Your response has brought out
more questions. Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative
here, I just want to understand. I can incorporate either fuses or
polyfuses in my design, although there will be an increase in wiring from
the fuse block to the pc board instead of just mounting the polyfuses
directly on the pc board.
> As an electrical component, the polyfuse will function as
> advertised. But how are you going to mount a device designed
> to be part of a product . . i.e. soldered to an etched
> circuit board? Unlike breakers or most fuseholders,
> the polyswitch has no provisions for vibration resistant
> mounting or convenient features for reliable attachement
> of wires . . . the polyswitch has solid leads . . .
This is the very reason I found the polyfuses attractive - Since I want to
have a pc board for the other circuits I have in mind, mounting the
polyfuses on the board seemed a lot easier than a separate block for the
fuses, with no spares to carry. Solid leads soldered into a PC board
seemed a reliable attachment of wires to me. Is that not right?
Your point about vibration resistance is good, and has me wondering. A
polyfuse looks like a slightly oversize ceramic capacitor with solid
leads. I was going to mount the polyfuse like a ceramic capacitor bent
horizontal with a dab of epoxy to hold it. For any other circuits I have,
how do I vibration mount their components if not just soldered in
place? I suspect I already have several other pc boards in the panel as
well. Do you have any words of wisdom on vibration mounting of typical pc
board components?
I am not trying to be argumentative here, I just want to understand - but
if the only reason to not use them is how they are mounted, and so many of
the electronic components on other existing pc boards are mounted the same
way, how do we solve that?
Thanks for all your work and advice, it is greatly appreciated.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lost nut (singular) |
>
>>On a more embarrsing note, I have lost the small
>>flat nut that holds the pot in the panel. It seems to be a odd size. Can
>>you tell me the size of the nut, threads etc. Those flat nuts are hard to
>>find locally (Radio Shack etc.)
>
> Hmmm . . do you have the round metal pot or a blue plastic square
> one?
>
>
>I have the round metal pot. Bob Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
Okay . . . didn't have an exact nut but I found one with
the right thread . . . It's in today's mail.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
>
>Thanks for responding about the polyfuses. Your response has brought out
>more questions. Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative
>here, I just want to understand. I can incorporate either fuses or
>polyfuses in my design, although there will be an increase in wiring from
>the fuse block to the pc board instead of just mounting the polyfuses
>directly on the pc board.
Understand . . .
>> As an electrical component, the polyfuse will function as
>> advertised. But how are you going to mount a device designed
>> to be part of a product . . i.e. soldered to an etched
>> circuit board? Unlike breakers or most fuseholders,
>> the polyswitch has no provisions for vibration resistant
>> mounting or convenient features for reliable attachement
>> of wires . . . the polyswitch has solid leads . . .
>
>This is the very reason I found the polyfuses attractive - Since I want to
>have a pc board for the other circuits I have in mind, mounting the
>polyfuses on the board seemed a lot easier than a separate block for the
>fuses, with no spares to carry. Solid leads soldered into a PC board
>seemed a reliable attachment of wires to me. Is that not right?
IF your system design requires an etched circuit board then
at least you've got a place to mount the little critters.
What are the features of your system that's driving you toward
fabrication of the etched circuit board?
>Your point about vibration resistance is good, and has me wondering. A
>polyfuse looks like a slightly oversize ceramic capacitor with solid
>leads. I was going to mount the polyfuse like a ceramic capacitor bent
>horizontal with a dab of epoxy to hold it. For any other circuits I have,
>how do I vibration mount their components if not just soldered in
>place? I suspect I already have several other pc boards in the panel as
>well. Do you have any words of wisdom on vibration mounting of typical pc
>board components?
The best support is to lay the component down and bond it to
the board. Second best is to have the part set in a little
puddle of epoxy . . . you need to pick a cement that is "thixotropic".
That is, it liquifies during mixing but returns to a gelled state
a short period of time after the stirring stops. Most plain vanilla
epoxies are simply very viscous liquids . . . they continue to run
right up to the beginning of hardening . . . hard to make them stay
in place.
The second concern is that you don't want to grab these things
in a manner that soaks off much heat energy . . . they have to
warm up to function. If you create much of pathway for cooling,
the switch current goes up and power dissipation during the
"OFF" mode goes up sharply. Too much heating in the OFF mode
will destroy the device.
>I am not trying to be argumentative here, I just want to understand - but
>if the only reason to not use them is how they are mounted, and so many of
>the electronic components on other existing pc boards are mounted the same
>way, how do we solve that?
>
>Thanks for all your work and advice, it is greatly appreciated.
My pleasure sir. What ever your design goals and decisions,
lets work to make it the best we know how to do.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ripsteel(at)edge.net (Mark Phillips) |
| Subject: | Re: Polyfuses and Thyristors |
Where I work, we were having continual problems with a transistor mounted by
it's "legs" to a circuit board in a weld controller made by Square D. The
continuous slamming of a large contactor in the panel would cause one of the
leads to break. Square D's "solution" was to inject a glob of silicon into the
area between the leads, effectively "glueing" the body of the transistor to the
board, and potting the legs. Guess what? Has worked very well so far, no more
failures. Not sure if this would affect the thermal characteristics of the
polyfuse to the point it would not function as designed...
FWIW from the PossumWorks
Mark
"Hausding, Sid" wrote:
> VERY good points Bob.
>
> --:
> : As an electrical component, the polyfuse will function as
> : advertised. But how are you going to mount a device designed
> : to be part of a product . . i.e. soldered to an etched
> : circuit board? Unlike breakers or most fuseholders,
> : the polyswitch has no provisions for vibration resistant
> : mounting or convenient features for reliable attachement
> : of wires . . . the polyswitch has solid leads . . .
> :
> : : Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Where I work, we were having continual problems with a transistor mounted by
>it's "legs" to a circuit board in a weld controller made by Square D. The
>continuous slamming of a large contactor in the panel would cause one of the
>leads to break. Square D's "solution" was to inject a glob of silicon into the
>area between the leads, effectively "glueing" the body of the transistor to the
>board, and potting the legs. Guess what? Has worked very well so far, no more
>failures. Not sure if this would affect the thermal characteristics of the
>polyfuse to the point it would not function as designed...
Understand . . . I had an etched circuit board humming
during vibration testing of a new target autopilot a few
years ago . . . parts were getting ripped from the board.
Mechanical redesign was going to take months and put
the project in jeopardy.
A marble sized wad of windshield sealant between the boards
provided the right damping to reduce vibration stresses
by a factor of 100 . . . 6 cents worth of uckumyucky saved
us from a mucho-kilobux effort.
Your proposed vibration proofing technique would be easy
to test. Get a hunk of perfboard from Radio Shack, mount
the device with a proposed technique. Measure the
tripped or OFF current of the device as mounted and compare
with a free-air value.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Perry" <eperry(at)san.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Master solonoid |
Hi Bob,
I don't have an alternator yet. I have been talking with some guys that
have RV-8's now and they say that they would just put in that switch and
forget the solenoid. The reason is that if you leave a straight switch on
the drain on the battery is negligible Vs. driving a master solenoid which
will run your battery down quicker. My question is, do I lose anything by
not installing the solenoid? The way that I understand it, its purpose is
that it handles large AMPS so the switch doesn't have to. If the switch will
handle the Amps what is the purpose of the solenoid? Am I making sense?
PS I understand the function of the checklist to secure the aircraft.
Ed Perry
eperry(at)san.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master solonoid
>
> >
> >
> >I have been considering eliminating the Master solenoid and going with a
> >simple 70amp pull switch like the one AS&S sells. Is there any reason to
> >have a solenoid?
>
> What kind of alternator do you have? Is there a big
> value in saving 1 amp of battery contactor current?
> A mechanical switch is fine, lots of older certified
> ships have them. They still need to be both convenient
> to pilot operation and close to the battery.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Master solonoid |
>
>I don't have an alternator yet. I have been talking with some guys that
>have RV-8's now and they say that they would just put in that switch and
>forget the solenoid. The reason is that if you leave a straight switch on
>the drain on the battery is negligible Vs. driving a master solenoid which
>will run your battery down quicker. My question is, do I lose anything by
>not installing the solenoid? The way that I understand it, its purpose is
>that it handles large AMPS so the switch doesn't have to. If the switch will
>handle the Amps what is the purpose of the solenoid? Am I making sense?
>PS I understand the function of the checklist to secure the aircraft.
A contactor (solenoid) is a remotely controllable high current
switch . . . a manually operated switch may not be practical if
it needs to be located very far from a pilot's reach. Unless you're
hurting for alternator output (some little PM alternators are good
for 10A or less), I'd go ahead and put the battery contactor in.
Using a contactor allows you to integrate both alternator and
battery master controls into a single switch . . . which can
prevent an alternator from being left on AFTER the battery is
OFF . . . You can easily wire a two position oil pressure switch
to control both a hour meter -AND- a low oil pressure light. If
you wire a small buzzer across the light, it will sound any time
the bus is hot (master on) and engine is stopped (oil pressure light
illuminated).
Opting for manual switch instead of contactor is a good power
conservation move if you have a small engine driven power source.
Otherwise, I'd stick with the battery master contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Kellar" <rkellar(at)mediaone.net> |
| Subject: | Customer service |
>>On a more embarrsing note, I have lost the small
>>flat nut that holds the pot in the panel. It seems to be a odd size. Can
>>you tell me the size of the nut, threads etc. Those flat nuts are hard to
>>find locally (Radio Shack etc.)
>
> Hmmm . . do you have the round metal pot or a blue plastic square
> one?
>
>
>I have the round metal pot. Bob Kellar rkellar(at)mediaone.net
Okay . . . didn't have an exact nut but I found one with
the right thread . . . It's in today's mail.
Thanks for service above and beyond the call of duty. Also, thanks for the
tons of free advice you give to the home builder's community. It sure
helped me understand how and why for wiring of my RV6. Bob Kellar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
Bob,
Your comment about leaving the alternator switch ON with the battery OFF
triggers a question. What's wrong with that scenario? I had planned to
have separate master battery (with a contactor) and alternator switches.
Charlie
------------------------------
> A contactor (solenoid) is a remotely controllable high current
> switch . . . a manually operated switch may not be practical if
> it needs to be located very far from a pilot's reach. Unless you're
> hurting for alternator output (some little PM alternators are good
> for 10A or less), I'd go ahead and put the battery contactor in.
> Using a contactor allows you to integrate both alternator and
> battery master controls into a single switch . . . which can
> prevent an alternator from being left on AFTER the battery is
> OFF . . . You can easily wire a two position oil pressure switch
> to control both a hour meter -AND- a low oil pressure light. If
> you wire a small buzzer across the light, it will sound any time
> the bus is hot (master on) and engine is stopped (oil pressure light
> illuminated).
>
> Opting for manual switch instead of contactor is a good power
> conservation move if you have a small engine driven power source.
> Otherwise, I'd stick with the battery master contactor.
>
> Bob . . .*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: "Landing Radar" |
Hi Fereg..I have a few 566's on hand..what is your address? Vern Smith vismith(at)sympatico.ca
"Harley, Ageless Wings" wrote:
>
> Mornin', Ferg...
>
> >>I need an LM566 function generator<<
>
> I rescued a large number of chips from my company when they were bought out
> a few years back, digital and linear.
>
> I never inventoried them to see what I had, but this gave me the
> opportunity!
>
> Needless to say, no 566s! I do have a good selection of TTL (74 series) and
> other isolaters, etc.
>
> I took the opprtunity, also to look up the 566 in my cross reference, and
> found that Sylvania made an exact replcement for it, the ECG994 (8 pin can)
> and the ECG994M (8 pin DIP) if that can help in your search.
>
> Harley Dixon
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate Alternator and Batter Switches . . . |
>
>Bob,
>
>Your comment about leaving the alternator switch ON with the battery OFF
>triggers a question. What's wrong with that scenario? I had planned to
>have separate master battery (with a contactor) and alternator switches.
>
>Charlie
This used to be practical back in the generator days . . . a generator
will come and run fairly well self-excited and without a battery
on line. When alternators came along, the practice of two independent
switches was modified to accommodate most alternator's need for (1) initial
battery excitation to get the system into operation and (2) most alternators
don't run well without a battery on line.
This is where the legendary "split rocker master switch" was born. Its
magical powers are invoked by most users of certificated aircraft and
many builders three decades later. In fact, a simple two pole switch
can be used to bring the alternator on and off together (use the field
breaker to open field excitation for extended battery-only ground
operations) -OR- use our S700-2-10 switch to provide the low cost
equivalency of the split rocker . . . the 2-10 can be wired for
OFF-BAT ONLY-BOTH operation.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure |
>Hi,
>Having purchased your book and wired my RV-6A. I fitted an Hatachi alternator
from an
>1982 Subaru, 50 amp and small, all went well 75 hours, until I climbed to 15,000
ft when
>the alternator or charging control system failed. Upon returning to ground we
checked
>everything wiring wise and started the engine and all systems operated fine. I
have a
>solid state regulator and a coil type over voltage relay from an Archer 2 . I
have been
>told I need special brushes for high altitude is this true?
>Can you suggest any fixes?
>Thankyou,
>Ken Muston.
>Australia.
No, "hi altitude brushes" are needed only for generators that
carry a LOT of current through their brushes. Chemistry in the
brushes compensates for lack of atmospheric moisture at altitude.
Alternator brushes carry very low currents (less than 3 amps)
and run on polished slip rings. Special brushes are not
necessary.
You need to bring some temporary test leads into the cockpit
for in flight diagnosis: A wire from the field terminal of
your alternator and a wire that taps the power path between
ov relay and regulator. I'd put a 1 to 2A fuse in each of these
leads close to where they attach to system wiring.
You need to measure voltage on these wires the next time it
happens. Depending on where the voltage disappears, you can
deduce which system device is causing the problem. It's more
likely that your failure is temperature induced than altitude
induced. I've run perhaps 40-50 tests of aviation electronics
products in 40 years . . . NOT ONE PRODUCT EVER DEMONSTRATED
A SENSITIVITY TO ALTITUDE for any function other than cooling.
It's hard to get rid of the heat when your cooling air is
missing half of its molecules.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Nicholas Knobil" <nknobil(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Wire runs and fuel lines |
Bob,
I've been following this list since it's inception and I believe that "The
AeroElectric Connection" has actually helped me understand what those
electrons do, or are supposed to do anyways (I think). I've gotten a lot
out of both channels and appreciate them both.
My question is this:
I'm building an RV-8 with the full baggage compartment, which leaves only a
relatively small area of the firewall for all of the fuel and electrical
lines to pass. I've been studying how I might run the various fuel and
electrical lines (as well as brake lines), and they're going to be close to
one another. Is there any rule of thumb as to how far apart an electrical
wire should be from a fuel line in the cockpit (or anywhere else)?
Thanks again,
Nick Knobil
Bowdoinham, Maine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | A couple more questions |
> I have taken this off list because I got the feeling I was covering old ground.
> I can take it back on the list if you think it better.
No problem. This is good conversation to have . . .I'm
going to echo my response to the list sans identification
of yourself.
>One more question about the polyfuses, then I will drop it - if the polyfuses
had the quick-connect terminals you like, so that they would fit into a fuse block
- the ATO form factor, would you use them?
I have no objections to using polyswitches if they are installed
in a manner that does not degrade service life -AND- if the customer
perceives some value in their operation that justifies the extra hassle
and expense of incorporating them into the system.
I would not use them personally because they can hide latent or impending
failures and I believe they have poor cost to benefit ratio compared to
fuse blocks. I really can't get excited about ANYTHING that resets itself
automatically after a fault.
I believe they were intended to enhance the ability of some products
to function or survive under adverse conditions . . . I don't
believe the engineers at Raychem ever intended to suggest this device as
a replacement of fuses or breakers in a vehicular power distribution system .
. .
I ought to call Raychem and see if any of the grey-haired ol' farts that
brought this product into being are still around . . . it would be interesting
to know what their vision for the product was 20 years ago.
>The other question I have is about the vibration mounting - how do you mount and
package the over voltage module you sell - all I can tell is that the whole
thing is heat shrinked, but what's inside? Is it potted components on perf board,
or is there a PC board with silicone around the transistors, or what? Your
good drawing or the book doesn't provide any of those details.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/ovm.jpg
It's fabricated from surface mount components on an etched circuit
board. The outer jacket is a double wall heat-shrink that encapsulates
the assembly. Ordinary heat-shrink would suffice . . . there is no
special need to protect the assembly from vibration or from cabin
environment. If it were mounted where it might get wet, the extra
sealant would be useful.
>I sure don't mean to sound like a pest, and your book has been very helpful,
>I will be using many ideas form it, so if I sound like anything I hope
>it is most like gratitude.
No offense taken nor stress engendered . . . I think we're all
interested in understanding how things work, sorting out myth and
legend from fact, and using components and science suited to the task
of building the world's finest light aircraft.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire runs and fuel lines |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I've been following this list since it's inception and I believe that "The
>AeroElectric Connection" has actually helped me understand what those
>electrons do, or are supposed to do anyways (I think). I've gotten a lot
>out of both channels and appreciate them both.
Great!
>My question is this:
>
>I'm building an RV-8 with the full baggage compartment, which leaves only a
>relatively small area of the firewall for all of the fuel and electrical
>lines to pass. I've been studying how I might run the various fuel and
>electrical lines (as well as brake lines), and they're going to be close to
>one another. Is there any rule of thumb as to how far apart an electrical
>wire should be from a fuel line in the cockpit (or anywhere else)?
The heavy iron guys have formulated lots of "rules of thumb"
for such separations . . . not sure any of them are based on
logic and understanding.
Fuel or hydraulic fluids are not susceptible to unhappy
stresses from within their various tubes and hoses . . . it's
only when the containment is compromised that leaking fluids
become an issue. I suppose the standard thinking is that
if a wire bundle rubs against a tube carrying flammables,
the same actions that opened the fluid line might also rub
away insulation thus giving rise to potential ignition.
As a practical matter in little airplanes, the rules of thumb
separation values may be difficult to observe. Common logic says
that if you're concerned about a potentially antagonistic wire bundle
rubbing against a victim fluid line, you can keep it from happening by (1)
secure the two systems firmly to each other so that motion between
them doesn't occur and (2) include some additional buffer between
them . . . like slip a piece of hose or thin wall plastic tubing
over fuel and brake lines before you tie-wrap them firmly together
with wire bundles. Heat shrink over the wire bundle might also
contribute to physical isolation of the two systems.
Neatly buffered and secured systems will co-exist nicely. It's
stuff allowed to wave around in the breeze that offers
potential for hazard.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
At 15:17 2001.04.15., you wrote:
> > I have taken this off list because I got the feeling I was covering old
> ground.
> > I can take it back on the list if you think it better.
>
> No problem. This is good conversation to have . . .I'm
> going to echo my response to the list sans identification
> of yourself.
My ident ok, I just didn't want to bore the others. I wasn't sure if all
this was already hashed out long ago - the archives for this list only go
to last Nov, but your website indicates you've been discussing this long
before that.
> I would not use them personally because they can hide latent or impending
> failures and I believe they have poor cost to benefit ratio compared to
> fuse blocks. I really can't get excited about ANYTHING that resets itself
> automatically after a fault.
I will follow your advice and use fuses, since your experience exceeds
mine, but I do not understand how resettable fuse/polyfuse/cb can hide
"latent or impending failures." To me, polyfuses are just PC mount fuses
that do not need to be replaced after they function.
I have a hard time getting excited about fuses, not that I can't appreciate
low cost and simplicity (I do!) but I don't like having to carry seldom
needed parts. I think there is a law of the universe that says the
probability that you will have the fuse you need is inversely proportional
to the importance of having it. (OK, just kidding here. I'm not invoking
voodoo or anything :
)
I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially the idea of being
able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without having some indication
until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The polyfuse I was going
to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the polyfuse had
tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in front of a fuse to
ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is there a better
way for this?
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
Re. fuse indicator..have used a led with resistor connected in parallel across
the fuse, blow the fuse, led turns on ..simple, but requires a closed external
circuit to function..
Gary Liming wrote:
>
> At 15:17 2001.04.15., you wrote:
>
> > > I have taken this off list because I got the feeling I was covering old
> > ground.
> > > I can take it back on the list if you think it better.
> >
> > No problem. This is good conversation to have . . .I'm
> > going to echo my response to the list sans identification
> > of yourself.
>
> My ident ok, I just didn't want to bore the others. I wasn't sure if all
> this was already hashed out long ago - the archives for this list only go
> to last Nov, but your website indicates you've been discussing this long
> before that.
>
> > I would not use them personally because they can hide latent or impending
> > failures and I believe they have poor cost to benefit ratio compared to
> > fuse blocks. I really can't get excited about ANYTHING that resets itself
> > automatically after a fault.
>
> I will follow your advice and use fuses, since your experience exceeds
> mine, but I do not understand how resettable fuse/polyfuse/cb can hide
> "latent or impending failures." To me, polyfuses are just PC mount fuses
> that do not need to be replaced after they function.
>
> I have a hard time getting excited about fuses, not that I can't appreciate
> low cost and simplicity (I do!) but I don't like having to carry seldom
> needed parts. I think there is a law of the universe that says the
> probability that you will have the fuse you need is inversely proportional
> to the importance of having it. (OK, just kidding here. I'm not invoking
> voodoo or anything :
)
>
> I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially the idea of being
> able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without having some indication
> until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The polyfuse I was going
> to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the polyfuse had
> tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in front of a fuse to
> ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is there a better
> way for this?
>
> Gary Liming
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | FW: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/16/01 |
Here's an idea for those with more time than...
Rig your LED that comes on when the "Polyfuse" trips through a latching
circuit so that the light will come on and stay on even if the fuse was only
momentarily open. Push the light to reset it and if it stays on the fuse is
still open. If it goes off the fault was intermittent. Why not?
(the light would be wired ACROSS the fuse so that it would only trip on when
the fuse opens)
original message:
I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially the idea of being
able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without having some indication
until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The polyfuse I was going
to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the polyfuse had
tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in front of a fuse to
ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is there a better
way for this?
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
>> I would not use them personally because they can hide latent or impending
>> failures and I believe they have poor cost to benefit ratio compared to
>> fuse blocks. I really can't get excited about ANYTHING that resets itself
>> automatically after a fault.
>
>I will follow your advice and use fuses, since your experience exceeds
>mine, but I do not understand how resettable fuse/polyfuse/cb can hide
>"latent or impending failures." To me, polyfuses are just PC mount fuses
>that do not need to be replaced after they function.
If you get a momentary short or overload from a piece of equipment
or wiring that is trying to fail, the fuse (and most breakers) will
open immediately an raise the flags of curiosity . . . "gee, maybe
there's something going on that I need to know about." The polyswitch
simply resets itself after the event and you may take some time to
become aware of it.
How many times have you had a breaker or fuse open in your car or for
that matter, an airplane?
>I have a hard time getting excited about fuses, not that I can't appreciate
>low cost and simplicity (I do!) but I don't like having to carry seldom
>needed parts. I think there is a law of the universe that says the
>probability that you will have the fuse you need is inversely proportional
>to the importance of having it. (OK, just kidding here. I'm not invoking
>voodoo or anything :
)
I wouldn't carry a single spare fuse in my airplane. My electrical
system (and I presume your electrical system too) will not suffer
from nuisance tripping of the overload protection. We're going
to design all such events out of the airplane. Tens of thousands
of certified airplanes have breakers designed to nuisance trip . . .
pilots have exchanged enough "dark and stormy night" stories
about these events to scare the bejesus out of the uninformed so
they WORRY a lot about airplanes they're building.
If a breaker or fuse opens in YOUR airplane, it's because something
is broke . . . you're not going to even think about it while airborne.
You switch to the alternate plan for comfortable completion of flight
with that particular piece of hardware not working.
Once on the ground, you can buy a new fuse at any corner convenience
store or auto-mart . . . I hope that whatever went belly up and took
the fuse out is as easy to deal with.
>I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially the idea of being
>able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without having some indication
>until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The polyfuse I was going
>to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the polyfuse had
>tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in front of a fuse to
>ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is there a better
>way for this?
If your checklist allows the possibility for this to happen, fix the
checklist. You don't need anyone's permission to operate your airplane
in a manner that makes sense, touches all the bases, and gets modified
as your experience dictates.
Welcome to the world of owner built and maintained aircraft - home
of the finest aircraft to have ever flown.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
>
>Re. fuse indicator..have used a led with resistor connected in parallel across
>the fuse, blow the fuse, led turns on ..simple, but requires a closed external
>circuit to function..
Annunciator panels are pretty nice if you like the "Learjet look"
in a cockpit . . . but consider the tens of thousands of CPB&M aircraft
flying today with a panel of breakers and no annunciator panel.
What is your very first clue that something is broke? It's
probably the fact that you threw a switch, twisted a knob
or pulled a lever and the expected event did not occur.
Now, you look at the circuit breaker panel, fuse panel and/or
annunciator panel and nothing has changed . . . what new
and useful information have you acquired? The thing is
broke.
Suppose you looked at the breaker panel and saw a breaker out,
a fuse turned black or even a neat little LED lit up. Do you
have any new and valuable information? The thing is still broke.
Things break in far greater numbers of ways that do not open
a breaker than in ways that do open a breaker . . . if you're
going to do a really good job of building and operating your
airplane, the need to know WHY something has quit is on your
list of things to do on the ground . . . not airborne.
The trend in truly modern aircraft design is to eliminate as
many breakers from the cockpit as possible . . . they are
finally being recognized as a distraction, a potential hazard
for in-flight fiddling, and the costs/weight of doing all power
distribution for an aircraft from cockpit mounted breaker
panels is poor return on investment.
We figured that out for airplanes built in the garage a long
time before the heavy iron guys did . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
> >I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially the idea of being
> >able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without having some indication
> >until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The polyfuse I was going
> >to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the polyfuse had
> >tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in front of a fuse to
> >ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is there a better
> >way for this?
>
> If your checklist allows the possibility for this to happen, fix the
> checklist. You don't need anyone's permission to operate your airplane
> in a manner that makes sense, touches all the bases, and gets modified
> as your experience dictates.
I don't see what my question has to do with a faulty checklist. If you are
suggesting that I add the procedure to pull every fuse and check them for
continuity as part of my pre-flight, it's not going to happen. That's just
impractical design, not to mention the fuse packaging we're talking about
really doesn't stand up to being yanked in and out each flight. The
question was about a better way to determine a fuse failure.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
| From: | james freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net> |
on 4/17/01 5:19 PM, Gary Liming at gary(at)liming.org wrote:
>
> I don't see what my question has to do with a faulty checklist. If you are
> suggesting that I add the procedure to pull every fuse and check them for
> continuity as part of my pre-flight, it's not going to happen. That's just
> impractical design, not to mention the fuse packaging we're talking about
> really doesn't stand up to being yanked in and out each flight.
I think Bob's (rhetorical) point is that any circuit necessary for a given
flight should be powered up and checked for function prior to takeoff. If
the radio powers up and makes noise, odds are good that the fuse is intact
:-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
>
>
>> >I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially the idea of being
>> >able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without having some indication
>> >until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The polyfuse I was going
>> >to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the polyfuse had
>> >tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in front of a fuse to
>> >ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is there a better
>> >way for this?
>>
>> If your checklist allows the possibility for this to happen, fix the
>> checklist. You don't need anyone's permission to operate your airplane
>> in a manner that makes sense, touches all the bases, and gets modified
>> as your experience dictates.
>
>I don't see what my question has to do with a faulty checklist. If you are
>suggesting that I add the procedure to pull every fuse and check them for
>continuity as part of my pre-flight, it's not going to happen. That's just
>impractical design, not to mention the fuse packaging we're talking about
>really doesn't stand up to being yanked in and out each flight. The
>question was about a better way to determine a fuse failure.
Fuses don't fail, the things powered through them fail and the fuse
blows to prevent the failure from propagating to other parts of
the system. Does the fact that a fuse is intact mean the system
powered by that fuse is working? Just because all the breakers
are NOT popped means the equipment connected to them hasn't drawn
too much current. It doesn't mean a thing about whether or not the
equipment is functional.
If you've determined that any equipment item is necessary for
your comfortable completion of flight, then you need to exercise it
before you take off -AND- have a backup for it in case it goes belly
up after takeoff. The ability to observe blown fuses or breakers either
in-flight or pre-flight adds nothing to flight system reliability.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
>
>on 4/17/01 5:19 PM, Gary Liming at gary(at)liming.org wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't see what my question has to do with a faulty checklist. If you are
>> suggesting that I add the procedure to pull every fuse and check them for
>> continuity as part of my pre-flight, it's not going to happen. That's just
>> impractical design, not to mention the fuse packaging we're talking about
>> really doesn't stand up to being yanked in and out each flight.
>
>
>I think Bob's (rhetorical) point is that any circuit necessary for a given
>flight should be powered up and checked for function prior to takeoff. If
>the radio powers up and makes noise, odds are good that the fuse is intact
>:-)
Dead on track my friend!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Electric Instruments |
I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions where I can get
good quality, cheap electric gyros?
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 12:31 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A couple more questions
>
>
> III"
>
>
> >
> >
> >> >I don't like failures to go unnoticed, though, especially
> the idea of being
> >> >able to get into the plane with a fuse blown without
> having some indication
> >> >until you go to use it the device in the circuit. The
> polyfuse I was going
> >> >to use would have had an LED indicator to signal when the
> polyfuse had
> >> >tripped. Any issue to putting an LED (with resistor) in
> front of a fuse to
> >> >ground to signal a fuse open on a critical circuit, or is
> there a better
> >> >way for this?
> >>
> >> If your checklist allows the possibility for this to
> happen, fix the
> >> checklist. You don't need anyone's permission to
> operate your airplane
> >> in a manner that makes sense, touches all the bases, and
> gets modified
> >> as your experience dictates.
> >
> >I don't see what my question has to do with a faulty
> checklist. If you are
> >suggesting that I add the procedure to pull every fuse and
> check them for
> >continuity as part of my pre-flight, it's not going to
> happen. That's just
> >impractical design, not to mention the fuse packaging we're
> talking about
> >really doesn't stand up to being yanked in and out each
> flight. The
> >question was about a better way to determine a fuse failure.
>
> Fuses don't fail, the things powered through them fail and the fuse
> blows to prevent the failure from propagating to other parts of
> the system. Does the fact that a fuse is intact mean the system
> powered by that fuse is working? Just because all the breakers
> are NOT popped means the equipment connected to them hasn't drawn
> too much current. It doesn't mean a thing about whether or not the
> equipment is functional.
>
> If you've determined that any equipment item is necessary for
> your comfortable completion of flight, then you need to exercise it
> before you take off -AND- have a backup for it in case it goes belly
> up after takeoff. The ability to observe blown fuses or
> breakers either
> in-flight or pre-flight adds nothing to flight system reliability.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Electric Instruments |
I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on e-bay for about
the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz is not readily
available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters are hugely
expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary monstrosities.
I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I have
been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a digital guy, and
not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller chip. What I lack
is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the transformer(s). One of
the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that it's dead easy to
make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few kilohertz, with
everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and phase are always
dead on.
Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those military gyros need,
and what the startup transients look like? how long do they take to spin
up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William B. Swears [mailto:wswears(at)gci.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:40 AM
> To: Aeroelectric List
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
>
>
>
>
> I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
> Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
> that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions
> where I can get
> good quality, cheap electric gyros?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
In a message dated 04/18/2001 9:34:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
DonH(at)axonn.com writes:
<< I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I have
been tempted to try and build. >>
I think there would be a huge demand for this item if you could offer a kit.
Mil surplus gyros always look so tempting until you consider the power
requirements. Maybe you and Bob could joint-venture on this.
-Bill Boyd
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
Hi Don..I have a circuit for a 3 phase 115vac 400 Hz inverter which will power
most gyros..transformers by Hammond..cost to build..125 to 150 US per
inverter....a LM566 is is a good oscillator to use..if interested,
advise..regards, Vern Smith
Don Hyde wrote:
>
> I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on e-bay for about
> the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
> three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz is not readily
> available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters are hugely
> expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary monstrosities.
>
> I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I have
> been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a digital guy, and
> not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
> everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller chip. What I lack
> is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the transformer(s). One of
> the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that it's dead easy to
> make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few kilohertz, with
> everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and phase are always
> dead on.
>
> Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those military gyros need,
> and what the startup transients look like? how long do they take to spin
> up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: William B. Swears [mailto:wswears(at)gci.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:40 AM
> > To: Aeroelectric List
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
> > Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
> > that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions
> > where I can get
> > good quality, cheap electric gyros?
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Inverter in the Back? |
Hello,
My name is Jerry Kaidor, I'm planning an electronics installation in my
'75 Beech Sundowner. Now, I see that this list is mostly populated by
homebrewers, and I hope that a questions about installations in certificated
airplanes are not unwelcome. As you no doubt know, the challenges in such
installations are as much political as they are technical.
Sitting in the mid drawer of my electronics junkbox is a Garmin GNS-430,
along with all its appurtenances: tray, antenna, harness, indicator,
inverter. It's the last item I'd like to discuss.
At the time I bought the 430, Garmin was only offering it in the 28V
version. The 28V was only for the COM transmitter, everything else in the
box runs on any voltage 11-30 volts. They sold it along with an 14V-28V
inverter.
I could doubtless find a place under the instrument panel to mount the
inverter. But this seems inelegant. The battery is in the tail, just aft
of the luggage compartment. To pipe 12V at some high current from the
battery up to the instrument panel, and convert it to 28V at a lower current
there - it just seems more elegant to do the conversion out back, and pipe
a smaller current up to the front.
Not only that, but the plane is nose-heavy ( Sundowners are known for
this ), and I'd rather stick the 2.3 pounds back in the tail where it will
do some good.
So - let's just suppose that I make up a plan to stick the inverter back
there, along with a fuse to protect it. I'll walk into the FSDO and....
...No doubt they'll say "You have no way to turn this thing off, other than
the master relay."
What do you think?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Electric Instruments |
>
>I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on e-bay for about
>the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
>three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz is not readily
>available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters are hugely
>expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary monstrosities.
>
>I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I have
>been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a digital guy, and
>not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
>everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller chip. What I lack
>is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the transformer(s). One of
>the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that it's dead easy to
>make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few kilohertz, with
>everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and phase are always
>dead on.
>
>Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those military gyros need,
>and what the startup transients look like? how long do they take to spin
>up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
About 25 years ago I used to build inverters that would
spin up a 3-phase, 400Hz gyro. These were single phase devices
with a resistor/capacitor network to do a quasi phase shift that
would fool the motor into operating from the single phase inverter.
We (Electro-Mech) built hundreds of these things to a local instrument
shop that was selling overhauled military gyros into the GA market.
The inverter was very simple. Never had any negative feedback from
the customer so I assume the product was effective.
I've been back to Electro-Mech to research the old print files.
All of that stuff got pitched. I don't remember the size of
resistor and capacitor used. I can provide a schematic of the
device if someone wants to do the necessary bench work for
an empirical deduction of appropriate values.
You can download a sketch of this inverter at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/GyroInverter.gif
The transformer is a tape wound torroid core. The transistors
are TO-220 plastic pnp power transistors. All are jelly-bean
parts. The resistor would have to be something on the order
of 150 ohms and the capacitor was probably less than 1uf. The
optimum combination would be selected for lowest spinup
time for the gyro motor.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
>
>I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
>Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
>that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions where I can get
>good quality, cheap electric gyros?
>
>Bill
Not personally . . . others on the list might have some suggestions.
If it were my airplane, I'd punch out a hole for a DG and cover it
with a blank plate. Install the gyro horizon and see how well you
can navigate using GPS course displays and other directional data.
You may find that you can do just fine with half the cost and weight
of the full-up gyro compliment. At least you can get flying and
perhaps put off buying the DG until later. It's a lot easier to
spend money on a flying airplane than one sitting in your
garage with the wings off.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
so true... airliners have gone from the entire floor-to-ceiling wall of
breakers to maybe a dozen hard-to-reach ones.
>
> The trend in truly modern aircraft design is to eliminate as
> many breakers from the cockpit as possible . . . they are
> finally being recognized as a distraction, a potential hazard
> for in-flight fiddling, and the costs/weight of doing all power
> distribution for an aircraft from cockpit mounted breaker
> panels is poor return on investment.
>
> We figured that out for airplanes built in the garage a long
> time before the heavy iron guys did . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Electric Instruments |
I'd love to take a look at the schematic. It would be cool if I could
figure a way to squeeze some cost out of it. That's what we do here a lot
-- I've spent weeks on programming to squeeze another 30 cents out of a
board to get the parts cost under $10 for a transmitter. How expensive are
those transformers?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vern Smith [mailto:vismith(at)sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:33 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
>
>
>
>
> Hi Don..I have a circuit for a 3 phase 115vac 400 Hz inverter
> which will power
> most gyros..transformers by Hammond..cost to build..125 to 150 US per
> inverter....a LM566 is is a good oscillator to use..if interested,
> advise..regards, Vern Smith
>
> Don Hyde wrote:
>
> >
> > I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on
> e-bay for about
> > the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
> > three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz
> is not readily
> > available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters
> are hugely
> > expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary
> monstrosities.
> >
> > I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a
> napkin, which I have
> > been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a
> digital guy, and
> > not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
> > everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller
> chip. What I lack
> > is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the
> transformer(s). One of
> > the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that
> it's dead easy to
> > make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few
> kilohertz, with
> > everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and
> phase are always
> > dead on.
> >
> > Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those
> military gyros need,
> > and what the startup transients look like? how long do
> they take to spin
> > up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: William B. Swears [mailto:wswears(at)gci.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:40 AM
> > > To: Aeroelectric List
> > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight
> instrument suite.
> > > Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems
> about 3 times
> > > that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions
> > > where I can get
> > > good quality, cheap electric gyros?
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
4/18/01
Hello Bob Nuckolls, I am seeking your help on a wiring problem. The plastic
conduits leading out to the wing tips on the composite airplane that I am
building are not large enough in diameter to contain all the wiring that
needs to go through them (my fault).
In order to minimize wiring cross section as much as possible I am
contemplating using shielded wiring to each item (instead of separate
unshielded wires for power and ground) and using the shield for the ground
return.
The largest single electrical load out on the wing is a 10 amp heated pitot
tube. All the other requirements (landing lights, taxi lights, nav / position
lights are of less amperage).
My question to you is: Can I use 16 AWG shielded wire with the power being
applied through the center wire and the ground return being provided by the
shield? My concern is that the shield may not provide adequate electrical
return to the grounding point.
Many thanks for your help.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
Bob,
I'm actually flying my vacuum driven IFR Cozy III. When you and I were talking
on the phone
the other day, you suggested I might consider going with an all electric panel.
Just thought I'd
check in an see if there were any comments or useful stats, like the electric instrument
last more
than three times as long.
Bill
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
> >Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
> >that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions where I can get
> >good quality, cheap electric gyros?
> >
> >Bill
>
> Not personally . . . others on the list might have some suggestions.
> If it were my airplane, I'd punch out a hole for a DG and cover it
> with a blank plate. Install the gyro horizon and see how well you
> can navigate using GPS course displays and other directional data.
> You may find that you can do just fine with half the cost and weight
> of the full-up gyro compliment. At least you can get flying and
> perhaps put off buying the DG until later. It's a lot easier to
> spend money on a flying airplane than one sitting in your
> garage with the wings off.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
I know that all the military electronic instruments I use at work are serial
number tracked. I keep seeing these military instruments around, but suspect
they are old, and mostly sold by people who also couldn't find a use for
them... And we keep spares around for when they DO break down because they will
need to be sent away for rebuild.
Bill
Don Hyde wrote:
>
> I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on e-bay for about
> the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
> three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz is not readily
> available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters are hugely
> expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary monstrosities.
>
> I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I have
> been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a digital guy, and
> not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
> everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller chip. What I lack
> is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the transformer(s). One of
> the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that it's dead easy to
> make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few kilohertz, with
> everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and phase are always
> dead on.
>
> Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those military gyros need,
> and what the startup transients look like? how long do they take to spin
> up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: William B. Swears [mailto:wswears(at)gci.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:40 AM
> > To: Aeroelectric List
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
> > Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
> > that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions
> > where I can get
> > good quality, cheap electric gyros?
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
>
>Bob,
>
> I'm actually flying my vacuum driven IFR Cozy III. When you and I were talking
on the phone
>the other day, you suggested I might consider going with an all electric panel.
Just thought I'd
>check in an see if there were any comments or useful stats, like the electric
instrument last more
>than three times as long.
>
>Bill
We all wish . . . I know of some vacuum instruments that haven't been
touched in years and some electrics too . . . The electrics are
more expensive to work on but I don't have any practical notion
as to longevity of one over the other. Will all gyros, I think
it has more to do with craftsmanship of the last person to touch
'em . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
Hmmm. I may have to respectfully disagree on a bit of this.
>
> >The question was about a better way to determine a fuse failure.
>
> Fuses don't fail, the things powered through them fail and the fuse
> blows to prevent the failure from propagating to other parts of
> the system.
I meant a blown fuse.
> Does the fact that a fuse is intact mean the system
> powered by that fuse is working?
Of course not. Didn't say it does.
> Just because all the breakers
> are NOT popped means the equipment connected to them hasn't drawn
> too much current. It doesn't mean a thing about whether or not the
> equipment is functional.
It does mean there hasn't been a failure in a way to draw excessive
current, as you say, but I do believe this has real meaning about the
condition of the equipment.
> If you've determined that any equipment item is necessary for
> your comfortable completion of flight, then you need to exercise it
> before you take off -AND- have a backup for it in case it goes belly
> up after takeoff. The ability to observe blown fuses or breakers either
> in-flight or pre-flight adds nothing to flight system reliability.
If the COM stops working, and I see (somehow, if we would only try to
answer the original question) that the fuse hasn't blown, I do know that
the radio hasn't failed in way that caused excessive current to be
drawn. This would tell me that the fault could lie elsewhere - a headphone
jack problem, a PTT stuck, it doesn't matter what, but you *know* its
something else. However, if it has blown, I *know* something about the
radio circuit is seriously wrong. I think I would like to have this
information, especially if all it takes is a 25 cent LED.
To say this information adds nothing to reliability is true - the only
thing that would do that is a more reliable COM system, but we haven't been
talking anything about that. It has a lot to do with maintainability and
availability, though. (Please note I am not advocating fixing anything in
midair.)
I hope I am getting my point more clearly - I am not talking about
reliability so much as diagnostic capability - As Bob says, things are
going to fail, so why can't they fail in a way that makes the problem well
known. It would be nice for the failure to not only be panic-free, but have
it be well indicated.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
>
>> Just because all the breakers
>> are NOT popped means the equipment connected to them hasn't drawn
>> too much current. It doesn't mean a thing about whether or not the
>> equipment is functional.
>
>It does mean there hasn't been a failure in a way to draw excessive
>current, as you say, but I do believe this has real meaning about the
>condition of the equipment.
But how often is this piece of data needed and
how necessary is it to know it in flight?
>> If you've determined that any equipment item is necessary for
>> your comfortable completion of flight, then you need to exercise it
>> before you take off -AND- have a backup for it in case it goes belly
>> up after takeoff. The ability to observe blown fuses or breakers either
>> in-flight or pre-flight adds nothing to flight system reliability.
>
>If the COM stops working, and I see (somehow, if we would only try to
>answer the original question) that the fuse hasn't blown, I do know that
>the radio hasn't failed in way that caused excessive current to be
>drawn. This would tell me that the fault could lie elsewhere - a headphone
>jack problem, a PTT stuck, it doesn't matter what, but you *know* its
>something else. However, if it has blown, I *know* something about the
>radio circuit is seriously wrong. I think I would like to have this
>information, especially if all it takes is a 25 cent LED.
I've had LOTS of radio failures - none of which I could do anything
about in flight. I've had only two popped breaker events in 20+
years and 1500+ hours - neither of which brought a system back
on line by re-setting the breaker. Breaker events are very rare
on the certified iron and should be even scarcer on circa 2000
homebuilts.
Given both rarity and dearth of useful information when
it does happen, is it a good use of panel space, dollars,
more wire and light bulbs to annunciate this information?
Are you going to put press-to-test in for all of the annunciator
lights? If it were a type certificated aircraft, this would be
mandatory. Adding little lights to all those fuses means still
more work and panel space and it's likely that you'll never see
one of them light up.
>To say this information adds nothing to reliability is true - the only
>thing that would do that is a more reliable COM system, but we haven't been
>talking anything about that. It has a lot to do with maintainability and
>availability, though. (Please note I am not advocating fixing anything in
>midair.)
The only "reliable" com system is two com radios that are independent
of each other. Things are going to break in your airplane's
electro-goodies . . . you cannot keep it from happening. You can
have some effect on service life by paying more dollars for some
increase in perceived "quality" but that has an increasingly small
return on investment as the "quality" goes up.
What I'm trying to sell is the notion of a failure tolerant
system . . . don't worry about what is going to break or when.
Just plan to back up critical items and get out the hammer
and saws when you're on the ground.
We live in an information age; I've spent about 20 hours in
Premiers, Beechjets, and Kingairs in the last month. There's
so much information on those panels that it takes TWO pilots
to make adequate use of it . . . I am simply skeptical of
the presentation of information in the cockpit that does not
markedly improve my flight system reliability. I would define
a reliable system as one that allows a pilot, flying machine
and weather system to work together for a point-a to point-b
trip without breaking a sweat.
If you can design your airplane, mind-set and operations
criteria to achieve that goal, then the need for lots of
information and so-called "aircraft quality" parts simply
goes away . . . and flying keeps on being fun. It would
be intellectually satisfying to become qualified in one of the
airplanes I mentioned but that's all . . . it's also a lot
of work. For pure enjoyment, give me a fast, two seated
mosquito thrasher any day.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>4/18/01
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls, I am seeking your help on a wiring problem. The plastic
>conduits leading out to the wing tips on the composite airplane that I am
>building are not large enough in diameter to contain all the wiring that
>needs to go through them (my fault).
>
>In order to minimize wiring cross section as much as possible I am
>contemplating using shielded wiring to each item (instead of separate
>unshielded wires for power and ground) and using the shield for the ground
>return.
>
>The largest single electrical load out on the wing is a 10 amp heated pitot
>tube. All the other requirements (landing lights, taxi lights, nav / position
>lights are of less amperage).
>
>My question to you is: Can I use 16 AWG shielded wire with the power being
>applied through the center wire and the ground return being provided by the
>shield? My concern is that the shield may not provide adequate electrical
>return to the grounding point.
By and large, the conductors surrounding a shielded wire
are about the same cross section as the center conductor.
The problem is "bundle de-rating" . . . a single wire
out in the air can carry a lot more current than one
buried in a wire bundle. In your case, bundling effects
are stronger because the outbound current conductor is
totally surrounded by the return conductor.
The problem is exacerbated by the plastic conduit's
inability to conduct heat.
You can try it. The major concerns will be for total
voltage drop . . . watts lost is squared function of
voltage . . . you can't do much more than melt a little
plastic . . .it may be okay.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inverter in the Back? |
>
>Hello,
>
> My name is Jerry Kaidor, I'm planning an electronics installation in my
>'75 Beech Sundowner. Now, I see that this list is mostly populated by
>homebrewers, and I hope that a questions about installations in certificated
>airplanes are not unwelcome. As you no doubt know, the challenges in such
>installations are as much political as they are technical.
Electrons behave the same way no matter what kind of airplane you
fly . . .
> Sitting in the mid drawer of my electronics junkbox is a Garmin GNS-430,
>along with all its appurtenances: tray, antenna, harness, indicator,
>inverter. It's the last item I'd like to discuss.
>
> At the time I bought the 430, Garmin was only offering it in the 28V
>version. The 28V was only for the COM transmitter, everything else in the
>box runs on any voltage 11-30 volts. They sold it along with an 14V-28V
>inverter.
>
> I could doubtless find a place under the instrument panel to mount the
>inverter. But this seems inelegant. The battery is in the tail, just aft
>of the luggage compartment. To pipe 12V at some high current from the
>battery up to the instrument panel, and convert it to 28V at a lower current
>there - it just seems more elegant to do the conversion out back, and pipe
>a smaller current up to the front.
>
> Not only that, but the plane is nose-heavy ( Sundowners are known for
>this ), and I'd rather stick the 2.3 pounds back in the tail where it will
>do some good.
First, I've installed the GNS-430 and run the transmitter off the
14V bus. Power output was down but the quality was good.
> So - let's just suppose that I make up a plan to stick the inverter back
>there, along with a fuse to protect it. I'll walk into the FSDO and....
>
> ...No doubt they'll say "You have no way to turn this thing off, other than
>the master relay."
There are lots of things on airplanes that come on and off with
the master contactor. I'd do just as you've suggested. Put a breaker or
fuse right at the bus-side of the battery master contactor and have
the inverter come on with the rest of the airplane . . . it's no different
than the OTHER 14v bus . . . you're just creating a 28v bus that happens
to have only one load.
Your proposed installation shouldn't give any enlightened inspector
heartburn.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net> |
| Subject: | blown fuse indicators |
You can buy from the automotive store a LED type indicator that snaps on the
back of the blade fuses- when the fuse circuit opens, the light is
activated.
Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord - RV6 finishing in Visalia, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A couple more questions
>
> >
> >on 4/17/01 5:19 PM, Gary Liming at gary(at)liming.org wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I don't see what my question has to do with a faulty checklist. If you
are
> >> suggesting that I add the procedure to pull every fuse and check them
for
> >> continuity as part of my pre-flight, it's not going to happen. That's
just
> >> impractical design, not to mention the fuse packaging we're talking
about
> >> really doesn't stand up to being yanked in and out each flight.
> >
> >
> >I think Bob's (rhetorical) point is that any circuit necessary for a
given
> >flight should be powered up and checked for function prior to takeoff.
If
> >the radio powers up and makes noise, odds are good that the fuse is
intact
> >:-)
> Dead on track my friend!
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/16/01 |
You can get automotive blade fuses that light up when it blows...
Miles
Europa taildragger
Gary Casey wrote:
>
>
> Here's an idea for those with more time than...
> Rig your LED that comes on when the "Polyfuse" trips through a latching
> circuit so that the light will come on and stay on even if the fuse was only
> momentarily open.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: FW: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/16/01 |
You can get automotive blade fuses that light up when it blows...
Miles
Europa taildragger
Gary Casey wrote:
>
>
> Here's an idea for those with more time than...
> Rig your LED that comes on when the "Polyfuse" trips through a latching
> circuit so that the light will come on and stay on even if the fuse was only
> momentarily open.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: illuminated ATO style fuses |
Miles
What are the part numbers for these items? Are they available through automotive
channels? Or are they an industrial specialty?
Charlie Kuss
RV-8A fuselage
Boca Raton, Fl.
>
> You can get automotive blade fuses that light up when it blows...
>
> Miles
> Europa taildragger
>
> Gary Casey wrote:
> >
> >
> > Here's an idea for those with more time than...
> > Rig your LED that comes on when the "Polyfuse" trips through a latching
> > circuit so that the light will come on and stay on even if the fuse was only
> > momentarily open.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring Diagram files |
>
>Bob,
>I used schematic Figure Z8 for my RV6A with a couple of small changes. I
>would like to get your critique of the changes. Is Z8 available as a .dwg
>file like some of the schematics on Aeroelectric? I would like to do an as
>built drawing including labeling of what is protected by each fuse on each
>bus - main, essential and battery to keep with the plane and in the POH.
>Could you post the dwg files or let me know where they are? Then I would
>edit and sent the file back to you for comment with my changes in red and
>explantions of the change.
>Thank you for the great information and wiring philosophy.
>
>Dave Biddle
>RV6A
>Phoenix, AZ.
I've attached a copy of Z8.dwg
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
At 15:38 2001.04.18., you wrote:
[indication of blown fuse]
> But how often is this piece of data needed and
> how necessary is it to know it in flight?
Every time you go to fix the non-working component you need this data. I
already stated previously that I don't advocate fixing things in flight, so
its not needed then. Again, I am not talking about reliability but
maintainability. These are owner built *and* owner maintained aircraft, so
their requirements might be a bit different that plane maintained by
someone not flying it.
> I've had LOTS of radio failures - none of which I could do anything
> about in flight. I've had only two popped breaker events in 20+
> years and 1500+ hours - neither of which brought a system back
> on line by re-setting the breaker. Breaker events are very rare
> on the certified iron and should be even scarcer on circa 2000
> homebuilts.
Well, again, I am not talking about using breakers or doing anything in
flight to attempt a fix. It's also true, described by the Nalls report,
which for 1999 (the latest one) says that of all equipment malfunction
related accidents, only 5% of them were due to electrical problems. I am
pretty sure the majority of them were circuit breaker/ring terminal planes,
too. Puts the whole fuse/polyfuse/circuit breaker argument in
perspective. I consider circuit breakers to be the least reliable circuit
protection, and they cause the least accidents.
>Given both rarity and dearth of useful information when
> it does happen, is it a good use of panel space, dollars,
> more wire and light bulbs to annunciate this information?
> Are you going to put press-to-test in for all of the annunciator
> lights? If it were a type certificated aircraft, this would be
> mandatory. Adding little lights to all those fuses means still
> more work and panel space and it's likely that you'll never see
> one of them light up.
Press to test is a throwback to incandescent bulbs - I already said I was
using LEDs. Another gentleman already responded with the availability of
fuses that have the indicators built in, so there is already at least one
answer that doesn't mean more work and panel space. Yes, I do hope its
likely I'll never see one of them light up, but as you say things fail anyway.
> What I'm trying to sell is the notion of a failure tolerant
> system . . . don't worry about what is going to break or when.
> Just plan to back up critical items and get out the hammer
> and saws when you're on the ground.
And I've bought it completely. I am discussing how easy it is to fix a
failure on the ground.
> I am simply skeptical of
> the presentation of information in the cockpit that does not
> markedly improve my flight system reliability. I would define
> a reliable system as one that allows a pilot, flying machine
> and weather system to work together for a point-a to point-b
> trip without breaking a sweat.
We're in marked agreement about what is a reliable system. As both the
pilot AND the mechanic, though, I think I can handle the information about
failures with both hats on - seeing the diagnostic information for what it
is, and continue a safe flight as the pilot without attempting to mess with
things until I land.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electric gyros |
My two cents worth:
I checked several instrument rebuild shops about the
reliability of electric gyros and was told that,
because they are sealed and not sucking in dirty
outside air, the electric gyros last far longer than
do vacuum gyros. As one said, did you ever wonder why
you were always taught to use the electric turn
coordinator when the vaccum gyros went out? It's
because the electric gyros (almost) never break.
As for the expense of electric gyros, you have to keep
in mind that Airborne, one maker of vacuum pumps,
recommends the pumps be replaced every 500 hours.
(Granted, very few people do this, but if you fly real
IFR, it's your butt on the line.) After 2000 hours,
you've just paid for an electric gyro. This is
assuming that the pump actually makes it to 500 hours;
there are lots of reports of new pumps failing in 200
hours.
As for the perceived difficulty in getting this
installation past the FAA, (for certified aircraft)
when I told my local FAA inspector my plan for
removing the vacuum system and going to electric gyros
on my Cessna 310, his only comment was "Good idea."
The FAA is well aware of the poor reliability of
vaccum systems and, given the recent surge in fatal
crashes caused by vacuum pump failures, supports a
pilot's decision to go to an all-electric panel. BTW,
there is NO requirement to have both electric and
vacuum gyros; the only requirement is to have two
SOURCES of power, not two TYPES of power. The
alternator and battery count as two sources of power.
My only caution to certified aircraft owners would be
to check your aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet.
See if vacuum pumps and/or vacuum gyros are listed as
Required Equipment (not likely.) Then check the
engine's TCDS, and see if vacuum pumps are listed
there as RE (very not likely.) If they are not listed,
then changing to electric gyros is not even a Major
Alteration (ref: Part 43, appendix A) and will require
only a log book entry.
If vacuum pumps/gyros are listed as RE, you're in
trouble. You will need a minimum of a Form 337, Major
Alteration/Repair, but more likely an STC (because you
are changing the Type Certificate.) Good luck.
Hope this helps.
Bill Irvine
Lancaster, CA
Cessna 310 (still in pieces, but going back together)
"Sacred cows make great hamburgers."
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilsonwcr(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Maintainability |
I have arrived on the list in the last few days so here is my input with
regard to an led to id a failed fuse. I just and a fuse go on my car, and
being to lazy to get the owners manual to see where to look I just grabbed
the Buss fuse fuse tester and found the fuse imediately. It has little probes
for all sizes of fuses. It lites an led for good fuses. It came with a bubble
pack of misc fuses for a few bucks. Hardly worth talking about but it sure
helps with the maintenance. and nothing on the plane to create a possible
reliability issue.
Paul W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James K. Glindemann" <jglind(at)netspace.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Instruments |
Hi Vern
I also would be interested in a copy of this circuit if it is not too much
trouble.
James K. Glindemann
Long EZ VH-JZE and
Velocity 173RG VH-VEL under construction
-----Original Message-----
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
>
>Hi Don..I have a circuit for a 3 phase 115vac 400 Hz inverter which will
power
>most gyros..transformers by Hammond..cost to build..125 to 150 US per
>inverter....a LM566 is is a good oscillator to use..if interested,
>advise..regards, Vern Smith
>
>Don Hyde wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on e-bay for
about
>> the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
>> three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz is not
readily
>> available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters are hugely
>> expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary monstrosities.
>>
>> I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I
have
>> been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a digital guy,
and
>> not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
>> everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller chip. What I
lack
>> is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the transformer(s). One
of
>> the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that it's dead easy
to
>> make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few kilohertz, with
>> everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and phase are
always
>> dead on.
>>
>> Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those military gyros
need,
>> and what the startup transients look like? how long do they take to spin
>> up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: William B. Swears [mailto:wswears(at)gci.net]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:40 AM
>> > To: Aeroelectric List
>> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
>> > Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
>> > that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions
>> > where I can get
>> > good quality, cheap electric gyros?
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "BLACKLER, Wayne" <wayne.blackler(at)baesystems.com> |
| Subject: | Electric Instruments |
Vern,
I am interested too. Please advise availability.
Cheers
Wayne Blackler
IO-360 Long EZ
MElbourne, AUSTRALIA
-----Original Message-----
From: James K. Glindemann [mailto:jglind(at)netspace.net.au]
Sent: Friday, 20 April 2001 07:23
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
Hi Vern
I also would be interested in a copy of this circuit if it is not too much
trouble.
James K. Glindemann
Long EZ VH-JZE and
Velocity 173RG VH-VEL under construction
-----Original Message-----
From: Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
>
>Hi Don..I have a circuit for a 3 phase 115vac 400 Hz inverter which will
power
>most gyros..transformers by Hammond..cost to build..125 to 150 US per
>inverter....a LM566 is is a good oscillator to use..if interested,
>advise..regards, Vern Smith
>
>Don Hyde wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen very fancy military-surplus 115VAC 400Hz units on e-bay for
about
>> the price of vacuum instruments. Many of them want the AC to be
>> three-phaase. The problem, of course is that 115VAC 400 Hz is not
readily
>> available on a light plane. 12VDC to 115V 400 Hz inverters are hugely
>> expensive and often WWII-vintage heavy, unreliable rotary monstrosities.
>>
>> I have a design for a simple inverter I sketched on a napkin, which I
have
>> been tempted to try and build. One problem is that I am a digital guy,
and
>> not very good in the analog domain. Naturally, my design has almost
>> everything in a cheap ($3-$4 in onesies) microcontroller chip. What I
lack
>> is some driver transistors, snubber diodes, and the transformer(s). One
of
>> the nice things about the microcontroller approach is that it's dead easy
to
>> make three-phase pulse-width-modulated outputs at a few kilohertz, with
>> everything counted down from a crystal so the frequency and phase are
always
>> dead on.
>>
>> Bob (or anyone else), do you know how much power those military gyros
need,
>> and what the startup transients look like? how long do they take to spin
>> up, and how much extra current do they need while they're doing it?
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: William B. Swears [mailto:wswears(at)gci.net]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:40 AM
>> > To: Aeroelectric List
>> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Instruments
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm thinking about installing an all electric flight instrument suite.
>> > Unfortunately, the price on electric gyro's still seems about 3 times
>> > that for vacuum equipment. Any comments, or suggestions
>> > where I can get
>> > good quality, cheap electric gyros?
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa_Mail: Circuit Breakers |
>Cheers,
> Our (canada) ministry of transport mails out amendments to the
>Aeronautical Information Periodical (rules and regs) quarterly, accompanied
>by the ASL - Air Safety Letter - which comments on recent accidents and
>enlarges upon common beliefs and practices as they relate to Air safety.
> The most recent edition, #1/2001, carries an article by Mike Murphy
>of the Air Passenger Safety Group within the ministry. It's about "The
>Deliberately Weak Link in the Electrical Cahin..." - the circuit breaker.
> This carefully crafted three pages describes the device, its
>purpose, its ramifications (hello SR111?) and it's positive dangers when
>involved with teflon covered wire. You don't want to miss it. Details from
>me - I have a Microsoft Word version and a text version and might be able to
>steer you to a website one as well.
>I found out my Air Force, my employer of 35 years and I all misused the
>little b.....r.
>Happy Landings,
>Ferg A064
Ferg, I found the article and a number of related
links. In reviewing the article I didn't pick up any
concerns about "teflon" covered wire.
See http://www.cadmus.ca/Circuit%20Breakers.htm
Mil-W-22759 wire or it's commercial replacements
(Raychem Spec 55 etc) are not mentioned as strong
trouble makers in the article. The trade name for
Mil-W-22759/16 wire is "Tefzel" . . . a cousin to
teflon but much tougher and resistant to cuts and
abrasion than teflon. In fact, the biggest
heartburn seems to be over Kapton wire.
The article's mumblings about circuit breakers
was nothing more than a parroting of the characteristics
of breakers . . . real textbook stuff with no new
revelations.
The article does raise the excellent point about
not messing with breakers in flight . . . which is a
good idea no matter what kind of wire you're using.
Better yet, use fuses which operate much faster
than breakers.
Some of the links spoke of wiring used in TWA800,
Valujet and Swissair crashes. However, we know Valujet
was set on fire from contraband cargo. The published
and unfortunately generally accepted scenario for
TWA800's demise was never duplicated in the lab.
This leaves Swissair which did issue a pilot report
of smoke in cockpit which may indeed be attributed
to insulation failure of Kapton insulation . . .
but we don't use Kapton on little airplanes.
Looking over the following links I find a cross
reference of wire types in service on various
aircraft.
http://www.cadmus.ca/wiretypes.htm
In lines 7 and 8 we find listings for Tefzel where
it is said to be used on military (22759/6) and
some Boeings and the DC9 (22759/34). It fails to
mention that the wire is widely used on bizjets
and other general aviation aircraft.
Caveats offered on line 7 are:
"Soft at high temps, dry arcs,
must not be mixed with
other types of wire"
Okay, little airplanes generally don't
operate any wiring at high temperatures . . .
further, the chart doesn't say what a
"high temp" is . . .
at: http://www.wiremasters.net/prod01.htm
we find that Tefzel is rated for continuous
operation at 150 degrees C. That's over
300 degrees F! There are few places on your
airplane where wiring might be exposed to such
levels and they're easy to avoid. Our little
airplanes don't have any 115vac wiring in them
so "dry arcing" is a very remote phenomenon.
Mixing wire types is also a non-issue in a
little airplane.
and in line 8 we see a whole host of
problems . . .
"Wet arcs, flammable,
copious smoke, soft at
higher temps, notches, toxic,
explodes in oxygen rich
environment, must not be
mixed with other types of
wire."
. . . .all of which are pretty much non-
issues in little airplanes. The most
prominent concerns are for flammability
and smoke.
Just for grins, I just went to the shop
and torched some Tefzel wire. I could
get it to char, melt, it would flame only
while the external flame was applied, it
would extinguish immediately when the
flame was removed and I noted very little
smoke.
This article may have some meritorious features
for the heavy iron guys . . . I'd wouldn't mind
some critical dialog with someone who understands
the physics of what's being discussed. In the
mean time, I'll recommend that amateur airplane
builders take note of an admonition not to fiddle
with breakers (or fuses) in flight and ignore the
rest. There is no new, useful information here.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: illuminated ATO style fuses |
Come from a company (in the UK) called Vehicle wiring products (!) tel +
(44) 0115 930 5454
parts ~ FBG 3, 4, 5, 7.5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 (number denotes amps) -
cost 0.75p ea (a bit over a dollar) or 7 quid for 10. VAT not applicable
(if shipped to US)
Miles
Charlie Kuss wrote:
>
>
> Miles
> What are the part numbers for these items? Are they available through automotive
> channels? Or are they an industrial specialty?
> Charlie Kuss
> RV-8A fuselage
> Boca Raton, Fl.
>
> >
> > You can get automotive blade fuses that light up when it blows...
> >
> > Miles
> > Europa taildragger
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ray Stallings" <JetJockey(at)mail.com> |
| Subject: | Converting military helmets to civilian use |
Hi Folks,
I have a couple of helmets left over from my Navy days that I would like to
convert to use in my Yak. The earphones are 17 ohms each. Civilian
earphones appear to all be 300 ohm. Can I simply add a 283 ohm resistor to
each earphone to acheive compatibility? How about the microphone? Does
anyone have any ideas about how to convert it to civilian use? Thanks.
Ray P. Stallings
Fax: 413-425-7783
Email: JetJockey(at)Mail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Converting military helmets to civilian use |
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I have a couple of helmets left over from my Navy days that I would like to
> convert to use in my Yak. The earphones are 17 ohms each.
*** I would connect them in parallel for an approx 8-ohm impedance. Then
use a step-down transformer - 600-ohm to 8-ohm, to drive them from the
600-ohm aircraft headphone bus. You could build the transformer into a
little box with headset jacks at one end, and a cord with a plug to plug
into the airplane at the other end. That particular sort of step-down
transformer: 600<->8 ohm - is fairly common.
- Jerry Kaidor
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Converting military helmets to civilian use |
That's a hard way to do it. Just buy a good civilian headset, noise
canceling if you like, strip the components out and install them, including
the mic, in the helmet. I have done just that and it worked out great!...LRE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net> |
| Subject: | Bill Irving's Gyro post |
Bill,
I've got 22 years military heavy jet maintenance and 12 years civilian
GA (light single thru corporate turbine) and my experience has been
quite different from your presentation. I have changed many more
electric gyros as opposed to vacuum/pressure gyros. In light singles
alone where I can assure you I have reviewed at least several hundred
complete log histories for first time annuals and pre-buys in my shop
the electric gyro appears for replacement at least twice as often as the
pneumatic gyro. Operating several FAR Pt 135 fleets I've seen the same
statistics. I also cannot see where your data dictates two power sources
for 91 operators. One vac pump, one vac horizon, one vac DG and one vac
TC are more than enough IFR equipment. 2 vac pumps, 2 batteries or 2
alternators are not required. Now if you get serious about hard IFR then
I would recommend dual vac pumps (one wet engine driven and one dry
electric driven). An electric TC is ok but an electric horizon is a lot
of extra expense for a poor track record unit. My experience has shown
wet vac pumps to make it through 2 engine TBO's. Dry pumps when
installed properly (new garloc seal, avoid petroleum contamination,
maintain cool temp) will go 800 to 1200 hours. There are 3 electric
back-up systems out there. The engine manifold press system is as
usefull as vacuum windshield wipers (accelerate the engine and the
vacuum falls and the wipers don't move or the gryo wobbles). Why install
a system that has a warning tag "not for IFR use" and when you apply
power for a missed approach the system provides no vacuum? There's my
FWIW.
Wes Knettle
Wisconsin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Decker <rmill2000(at)yahoo.com> |
After wiring and installing my MAC stick grip I have discovered it came
with the wrong type of switch. I wanted an On/Off unit for switching on
the autopilot or perhaps changing frequencies. However, I have discovered
too late that the switch I have is a momentary (on) or (off) depending how
it is wired--perfect for a transmitter switch but I already have one of
those. Is it possible to wire this switch (perhaps by adding a electronic
component) for use as an on/off without having to take everything apart?
Thanks
Matt
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <pma(at)obtero.net> |
| Subject: | Vacuum reliability |
Hi all,
I have just finished reading an interesting posting by Wes Knettle. He
confirmed something I had suspected, that is, their is an unsupported
assumption that electric DG's and heading indicators are more reliable that
their vacuum counterparts. Is any one aware of published MTBF data from
manufactures ?
I have a question for the group. What is the down side of wet vacuum pumps
? My experience based on a sample of 1 (statistically useless) is that they
are very reliable.
Thanks,
Paul McAllister
Builder 363 - http://pma.obtero.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Melvinke(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Converting military helmets to civilian use |
Oregon Aero do a deluxe job of rejuvenating a military
helmet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
| Subject: | Vacuum reliability |
> ... there is an unsupported
> assumption that electric DG's and heading indicators are more
> reliable that
> their vacuum counterparts. Is any one aware of published
> MTBF data from
> manufactures ?
My understanding is that raw reliability is not the only concern. A large
portion of the concern is to have some of your gyros operating in the event
of a large system failure. Turn Coord/Turn&Bank is on the electrical system
and continues to operate with an engine failure. DG and artificial horizon
continue to work when the electrical system fails.
As for head-to-head reliability comparisons between electric and vacuum
gyros, I'll let someone who knows answer that.
> I have a question for the group. What is the down side of
> wet vacuum pumps
> ? My experience based on a sample of 1 (statistically
> useless) is that they
> are very reliable.
I don't have personal experience with this, but my understanding is that wet
pumps are messy (because they're wet -- oily) and heavy (like 6 lbs. I
think). My understanding is that they're also more reliable -- failing
slowly over time and with plenty of warning as opposed to dry pumps that
typically work great and then just suddenly stop without warning.
Interestingly, you can get a wet-pump/air-oil-separator combined to address
the issue of mess:
http://www.beryldshannon.com/products/a_osep.htm
These guys specialize on Bonanzas but list a few other types for which their
device is approved. I don't know if anyone else makes these too.
Regards,
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum reliability |
I have had electric turn coordinators replaced more often than the vacuum DG
and Horizon. Brushes and bearings go bad!
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
----- Original Message -----
From: "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum reliability
>
> > ... there is an unsupported
> > assumption that electric DG's and heading indicators are more
> > reliable that
> > their vacuum counterparts. Is any one aware of published
> > MTBF data from
> > manufactures ?
>
> My understanding is that raw reliability is not the only concern. A large
> portion of the concern is to have some of your gyros operating in the
event
> of a large system failure. Turn Coord/Turn&Bank is on the electrical
system
> and continues to operate with an engine failure. DG and artificial
horizon
> continue to work when the electrical system fails.
>
> As for head-to-head reliability comparisons between electric and vacuum
> gyros, I'll let someone who knows answer that.
>
> > I have a question for the group. What is the down side of
> > wet vacuum pumps
> > ? My experience based on a sample of 1 (statistically
> > useless) is that they
> > are very reliable.
>
> I don't have personal experience with this, but my understanding is that
wet
> pumps are messy (because they're wet -- oily) and heavy (like 6 lbs. I
> think). My understanding is that they're also more reliable -- failing
> slowly over time and with plenty of warning as opposed to dry pumps that
> typically work great and then just suddenly stop without warning.
>
> Interestingly, you can get a wet-pump/air-oil-separator combined to
address
> the issue of mess:
>
> http://www.beryldshannon.com/products/a_osep.htm
>
> These guys specialize on Bonanzas but list a few other types for which
their
> device is approved. I don't know if anyone else makes these too.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim Ivey
> jim(at)iveylaw.com
> Oakland, CA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Isaacs" <bob999(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electric gyros |
I must comment on your closing statment "Sacred cows make great hamburgers."
This is true only if they have never put their foot (hoof) in their mouth.
Sorry, It's a slow day.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Irvine" <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: electric gyros
>
> My two cents worth:
> I checked several instrument rebuild shops about the
> reliability of electric gyros and was told that,
> because they are sealed and not sucking in dirty
> outside air, the electric gyros last far longer than
> do vacuum gyros. As one said, did you ever wonder why
> you were always taught to use the electric turn
> coordinator when the vaccum gyros went out? It's
> because the electric gyros (almost) never break.
>
> As for the expense of electric gyros, you have to keep
> in mind that Airborne, one maker of vacuum pumps,
> recommends the pumps be replaced every 500 hours.
> (Granted, very few people do this, but if you fly real
> IFR, it's your butt on the line.) After 2000 hours,
> you've just paid for an electric gyro. This is
> assuming that the pump actually makes it to 500 hours;
> there are lots of reports of new pumps failing in 200
> hours.
>
> As for the perceived difficulty in getting this
> installation past the FAA, (for certified aircraft)
> when I told my local FAA inspector my plan for
> removing the vacuum system and going to electric gyros
> on my Cessna 310, his only comment was "Good idea."
> The FAA is well aware of the poor reliability of
> vaccum systems and, given the recent surge in fatal
> crashes caused by vacuum pump failures, supports a
> pilot's decision to go to an all-electric panel. BTW,
> there is NO requirement to have both electric and
> vacuum gyros; the only requirement is to have two
> SOURCES of power, not two TYPES of power. The
> alternator and battery count as two sources of power.
>
> My only caution to certified aircraft owners would be
> to check your aircraft's Type Certificate Data Sheet.
> See if vacuum pumps and/or vacuum gyros are listed as
> Required Equipment (not likely.) Then check the
> engine's TCDS, and see if vacuum pumps are listed
> there as RE (very not likely.) If they are not listed,
> then changing to electric gyros is not even a Major
> Alteration (ref: Part 43, appendix A) and will require
> only a log book entry.
>
> If vacuum pumps/gyros are listed as RE, you're in
> trouble. You will need a minimum of a Form 337, Major
> Alteration/Repair, but more likely an STC (because you
> are changing the Type Certificate.) Good luck.
>
> Hope this helps.
> Bill Irvine
> Lancaster, CA
> Cessna 310 (still in pieces, but going back together)
>
> "Sacred cows make great hamburgers."
>
>
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca> |
,
| Subject: | ANR Headset Conversion |
I have been thinking of converting two of my DC's to this exact system.
http://www.avweb.com/sponsors/headsets/index.html
They've been around a few years now and I've yet to hear anything bad about
them.
They run off a 9v battery that will last 20 hours. Does that mean a 9v
rechargeable will last slightly under 20 hours?
What I would like to source is a 9v battery charger that is very small and
runs on 12v. Does anyone know of one and a source? I want to run
re-chargeable batteries and have the ability to charge up dead ones in my
airplane. I have two cig lighter sockets in a really neat side panel in the
luggage compartment. There are two more on the bottom right of my panel just
above a pocket. I'll buy three batteries and rotate them when one dies.
I have ten year old DC 10-30's and 10-40's in perfect condition and would
rather upgrade these quality pieces than spend another couple of thousand
dollars on new fashion pieces.
Thanks,
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A couple more questions |
> I am not talking about
>reliability so much as diagnostic capability
Airborne fault diagnosis is a good way to terminate your flight
prematurely, as many professional flight-crew teams have
demonstrated. If one radio is dead, use the other one or go non-radio.
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> |
Hi Matt..it is possible to use your switch to operate as an on/off function, by
using it to trigger a 'flip-flop' circuit which in turn can control a relay,
etc. details available. Regards, Vern Smith
Matthew Decker wrote:
>
> After wiring and installing my MAC stick grip I have discovered it came
> with the wrong type of switch. I wanted an On/Off unit for switching on
> the autopilot or perhaps changing frequencies. However, I have discovered
> too late that the switch I have is a momentary (on) or (off) depending how
> it is wired--perfect for a transmitter switch but I already have one of
> those. Is it possible to wire this switch (perhaps by adding a electronic
> component) for use as an on/off without having to take everything apart?
>
> Thanks
>
> Matt
>
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | military to civilian |
4/22/01
In a message dated 04/21/2001 2:53:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< Hi Folks, I have a couple of helmets left over from my Navy days that I
would like to convert to use in my Yak. The earphones are 17 ohms each.
Civilian earphones appear to all be 300 ohm. Can I simply add a 283 ohm
resistor to each earphone to acheive compatibility? How about the
microphone? Does anyone have any ideas about how to convert it to civilian
use? Thanks.
Ray P. Stallings
Fax: 413-425-7783
Email: JetJockey(at)Mail.com>>
Hello Ray, Conversion adapters are available at
<<http://www.flightsuits.com/helm_cords.html>>
OC Baker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Al & Deb Paxhia" <paxhia2(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ANR Headset Conversion |
Norman,
I converted my DC's to Headsets Inc. about a year ago. Headsets work great,
the battery is the down side. I fly Beavers in the summer and rotate between
three airplanes. The battery always goes dead when your talking to ATC or
someone. When the headset goes back to passive mode my ears don't switch
fast enough to understand what was said, so I scramble to change batteries.
In my airplane I am going to install the Headsets Inc. power supply and
eliminate the battery.
Al Paxhia, Super Rebel about 90% complete
----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Hunger" <nhunger(at)sprint.ca>
;
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:31 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ANR Headset Conversion
>
> I have been thinking of converting two of my DC's to this exact system.
> http://www.avweb.com/sponsors/headsets/index.html
> They've been around a few years now and I've yet to hear anything bad
about
> them.
>
> They run off a 9v battery that will last 20 hours. Does that mean a 9v
> rechargeable will last slightly under 20 hours?
>
> What I would like to source is a 9v battery charger that is very small and
> runs on 12v. Does anyone know of one and a source? I want to run
> re-chargeable batteries and have the ability to charge up dead ones in my
> airplane. I have two cig lighter sockets in a really neat side panel in
the
> luggage compartment. There are two more on the bottom right of my panel
just
> above a pocket. I'll buy three batteries and rotate them when one dies.
>
> I have ten year old DC 10-30's and 10-40's in perfect condition and would
> rather upgrade these quality pieces than spend another couple of thousand
> dollars on new fashion pieces.
>
> Thanks,
> Norman Hunger
> RV6A Delta BC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl(at)centurytel.net> |
| Subject: | Wet vs Dry vacuum systems |
1-Weight: 6.2 pounds is the figure for the wet pump SYSTEM (includes
pump, regulator, filter, plumbing and air/oil seperator. The figure
would be 4.0 for the dry pumps SYSTEM.
2-Messy is not true unless ones air/oil seperator is not cleaned
periodically (at least each annual).
3-Cost: Dry 200 series $300 and wet Garwin 455 $395 O/H'd exchange.
4-Reliability: Wet will usually last 1.5 to 2 engine overhaul periods
(depending on piston engine model, 1600 to 2400 hours) that works out to
roughly 2000 to 3000 hours. A dry pump (New manufacture Airborne) (200
series not supporting de-ice boots) usualy goes 800 to 1000 hours. As
stated earlier, the wet pump let's you know early on it is going to
fail. A dry pump gives no warning.
Note that the advertising pressure from dry pump manufacturers caused
the attrition of the wet systems. Most shops including mine will not
advise a customer to abandon a proven wet pump system for a dry system.
If you watch around you'll see most single engine operators using
back-up vacuum systems have the dry system for primary.
Wes K
Wisconsin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: more electric gyros |
> From: Wesley & Susan Knettle
> the electric gyro appears for replacement at least
> twice as often as the
> pneumatic gyro.
Wes,
thanks for the interesting info. I'll have to check
into it more closely. You obviously have more
experience than I. The funny thing is, I haven't
heard of anyone dying from an electric gyro failure,
and yet failed vacuum systems have killed...how many
in the last year? Carnahan in Missouri. Jacoby(?) in
New York. Both of those planes had passengers;
everybody died. How many other instances am I
forgeting? I think there have been quite a few.
Maybe electric gyros don't fail as often as we think
they do, or maybe there is some other correlation that
I am missing. It certainly bears looking into.
> I also cannot see where your data dictates two power
> sources for 91 operators.
FAR Part 23.1331 Instruments using a power source.
"For each instrument that uses a power source, the
following apply:
(a)...
(b)...
(c) There must be at least two independent sources of
power (not driven by the same engine on multiengine
airplanes), and a manual or an automatic means to
select each power source."
"Powered instruments" means electric or vacuum. So if
I'm reading this right, each electric instrument must
have two sources of power, such as an alternator and
battery, and each vacuum instrument must have two
sources of power, such as two vacuum pumps, or one
pump and some sort of back-up system. Granted, this
applies only to aircraft built under Part 23, but
there it is. The point I was trying to make is that
some people think you can't use an all-electric panel
because the FAR's require electric AND vacuum gyros,
and this isn't true.
Interesting that you condemn all-electric panels, yet
the back-up vacuum system you prefer is electrically
driven. So when my vacuum system fails, I go to
what... my more reliable electric back-up? Why not
use an electric system in the first place?
Yes, the wet pumps are far more reliable than the dry
pumps. I have heard stories of some lasting over 3000
hours. They also make one hell of a mess; I have two
on my 310. Yes, proper maintenance on the air-oil
separator helps, but not much. Your airplane will
never rust with wet pumps! That's why the dry pumps
were invented, people were so tired of the oily
bellies. And yes, they are heavy; they feel like they
are made of cast iron. Anybody want to buy mine?
And as for the worry over a total electric failure:
remember that I have two engines, two alternators, and
a battery. All of this will be connected with the
main buss/essential buss system that Bob Nuckols
suggests and that Cessna used on their last twins. So
for all of the lights to go out on my plane, I will
have to lose both alternators, and the battery will
have to blow up, all at the same time. Granted, this
might not work on someone's single engine airplane, or
an airplane with old unreliable wiring. I'm not
saying everybody should go to electric gyros; we all
have to build to our own personal level of comfort.
Let's talk about parts count: I can replace two vacuum
pumps, two air-oil separators, yards of tubing, a
filter, a dual check valve, two regulators, a vacuum
gauge, and LOTS of connections with... one wire.
Hmmmm....
Maybe I'm wrong; maybe electric gyros suck. Maybe
some dark and stormy night I'll make a smoking hole
with my all-electric 310. But I wouldn't count on it.
Bill Irvine
Lancaster, CA
"Sacred cows make great hamburgers."
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Dry vacuum systems |
Wesley & Susan Knettle wrote:
>
>
> 4-Reliability: Wet will usually last 1.5 to 2 engine overhaul periods
> (depending on piston engine model, 1600 to 2400 hours) that works out to
> roughly 2000 to 3000 hours. A dry pump (New manufacture Airborne) (200
> series not supporting de-ice boots) usualy goes 800 to 1000 hours. As
> stated earlier, the wet pump let's you know early on it is going to
> fail. A dry pump gives no warning.
And... most pilots miss the indications of failure if they are in a high
workload situation: a good friend of mine (in California) doing an IFR
approach last month broke out of the clag 30 wing down... gave him a
hell of a shock. reckons he lost his vacuum in the middle of the
descent...
As a result, we are in the process of designing and making small, light,
warning systems for low vacuum - which will illuminate an LED within the
scan area at less than 3.4 -4" Hg...
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Smith <vismith(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Dry vacuum systems |
Hi Miles..I have been using a vaccuum switch (Honeywell, I think) connected to
my vac. manifold, and it works well (SPDT contacts) regards, Vern Smith
Miles McCallum wrote:
>
> Wesley & Susan Knettle wrote:
> >
> >
> > 4-Reliability: Wet will usually last 1.5 to 2 engine overhaul periods
> > (depending on piston engine model, 1600 to 2400 hours) that works out to
> > roughly 2000 to 3000 hours. A dry pump (New manufacture Airborne) (200
> > series not supporting de-ice boots) usualy goes 800 to 1000 hours. As
> > stated earlier, the wet pump let's you know early on it is going to
> > fail. A dry pump gives no warning.
>
> And... most pilots miss the indications of failure if they are in a high
> workload situation: a good friend of mine (in California) doing an IFR
> approach last month broke out of the clag 30 wing down... gave him a
> hell of a shock. reckons he lost his vacuum in the middle of the
> descent...
>
> As a result, we are in the process of designing and making small, light,
> warning systems for low vacuum - which will illuminate an LED within the
> scan area at less than 3.4 -4" Hg...
>
> Miles
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Momentary contact switches |
>
> After wiring and installing my MAC stick grip I have discovered it came
> with the wrong type of switch. I wanted an On/Off unit for switching on
> the autopilot or perhaps changing frequencies. However, I have discovered
> too late that the switch I have is a momentary (on) or (off) depending how
> it is wired--perfect for a transmitter switch but I already have one of
> those. Is it possible to wire this switch (perhaps by adding a electronic
> component) for use as an on/off without having to take everything apart?
>
> Thanks
>
> Matt
>
If I'm not mistaken all the remotes switches used to control S-TEC
autopilots are momentary contact. On my S-TEC 30 that is true of the mode
control, disconnect and altitude hold. The main power is from an an/off
switch on the panel. So I think you're all set as most experimentals have
S-TECs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ground bus "clones" |
>Bob:
>I read your book on ground busses. I thus find the need to install a ground bus
behind the instrument panal on my RV 6A. The ground bus I made contains eight
(8)-8/32 brass screws soldered to brass stock. I also soldered two(2)-10/32
brass screws to hold the ground bus in the aircraft and act as the connection
point for the ground wire terminal end. The battery ground is approx 3 feet
away. I plan to use this ground bus to ground the instruments, gauges, etc.
on the instrument panal.
I would REALLY like for your to consider using the forest-of-tabs
ground buses offered in our website catalog from B&C . . . these
devices give you a separate, non-loosening attachment for each
ground wire in your system . . . no single failure takes out more
than one system. Further, the fast-on tab is far superior to the
threaded fastener in terms of connection integrity.
>Questions:
>(1) Is it feasible to use 8 gauge wire from the battery ground point on the firewall
to the ground bus? (I have 8 gauge in stock)
Starter cranking current flows in this wire. It should be 4AWG
at least. Consider using welding cable from local welding supply
store or 4AWG Tefzel from B&C . . . they have LOTS in stock.
>(2) Is the ground bus system I devised a feasible method to ground the instrument
panal, thus elimate a future grounding problem? ( I would hate to depend on
the rivets on the aircraft to serve as a GOOD ground)
Actually, rivets are one of the MOST dependable means for achieving
both mechanical and electrical attachment of two pieces of metal.
Consider that a rivet is installed in a close slip fit hole and when
driven to proper height, swells up in the hole making a gas tight
connection between the riveted materials. Given that an airplane is
assembled with thousands of rivets, I'd take the rivets over a bolted
connection ANY day. Some folk have worried about rivets not making good
connection because their parts are all painted with corrosion protection
before assembly . . . keep in mind that the compression strength of
aluminum alloys start at about 30,000 psi and go up from there. Compression
strength of zinc chromate is somewhere on other of peanut butter.
I don't care how much zinc chromate was in the hole before you bucked the
rivet. . . there is NO zinc chromate in the hole after you buck
the rivet.
The ground bus should get its ground to the firewall by clamping
up action of the 5/16" brass bolt provided with the kit. This bolt
is attached point for the battery (-) lead -AND- the engine-to-
firewall ground strap. If everything behind the panel grounds
to the ground block then the only thing that really depends on
ground-block-to-firewall connection are the items locally grounded
like landing lights, pitot heater, nav lights and strobe power
supply . . . Further, the integrity of ground-block-to-airframe
connection is quite good because of the multiple threaded fasteners
used to install the ground block.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ANR Headset Conversion |
>
>I have been thinking of converting two of my DC's to this exact system.
>http://www.avweb.com/sponsors/headsets/index.html
>They've been around a few years now and I've yet to hear anything bad about
>them.
>
>They run off a 9v battery that will last 20 hours. Does that mean a 9v
>rechargeable will last slightly under 20 hours?
>
>What I would like to source is a 9v battery charger that is very small and
>runs on 12v. Does anyone know of one and a source? I want to run
>re-chargeable batteries and have the ability to charge up dead ones in my
>airplane. I have two cig lighter sockets in a really neat side panel in the
>luggage compartment. There are two more on the bottom right of my panel just
>above a pocket. I'll buy three batteries and rotate them when one dies.
Norm,
I've helped a number of folks replace batteries in their
intercom systems with a DIM5-14 dimmer assembly set up
for a permanently set output voltage as desired. This
has been successful for a variety of audio devices including
portable CD players.
Take a ohmmeter and measure resistance from the (-) terminal
of the battery to the headset or microphone jack frame on the
front panel of the intercom . . . if it's VERY low, like
less than 1 ohm, then the DIM5-14 will is a 99% bet for
battery substitution.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum reliability |
>
>I have had electric turn coordinators replaced more often than the vacuum DG
>and Horizon. Brushes and bearings go bad!
Different breed of cat . . . the torque motor in a T/C
does have brushes . . . gyros are AC motors with no
brushes.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Vacuum reliability |
>
>My understanding is that raw reliability is not the only concern. A large
>portion of the concern is to have some of your gyros operating in the event
>of a large system failure. Turn Coord/Turn&Bank is on the electrical system
>and continues to operate with an engine failure. DG and artificial horizon
>continue to work when the electrical system fails.
>
Only certified aircraft suffer pre-ordained electrical system
failure. OBAM aircraft have a potential for failure immunity . . .
it's all up to the builder.
>I don't have personal experience with this, but my understanding is that wet
>pumps are messy (because they're wet -- oily) and heavy (like 6 lbs. I
>think). My understanding is that they're also more reliable -- failing
>slowly over time and with plenty of warning as opposed to dry pumps that
>typically work great and then just suddenly stop without warning.
>
>Interestingly, you can get a wet-pump/air-oil-separator combined to address
>the issue of mess:
>
>http://www.beryldshannon.com/products/a_osep.htm
>
>These guys specialize on Bonanzas but list a few other types for which their
>device is approved. I don't know if anyone else makes these too.
I was working at Electro-Mech in the early 80's when we developed
an electrically driven vacuum pump that is still sold onto the
Bonanza's as a factory option. While two pumps is certainly more
likely to provide vacuum than one pump, it simply adds still more
weight to an already too heavy system.
A good friend of mine lost his life along with 3 passengers
when he lost the dry pump, standby electric pump didn't work
when he needed it most, suffered disorientation when
he perceived confusing readings between 3" electric standby
A.H. and turn coordinator and lost he airplane anyhow. If there
was ever an airplane equipped to save the day, it had to be
THAT airplane.
Bottom line is that all the backups in the world promise nothing
with respect to outcome . . . and the more panel mounted stuff
you have the greater the pilot workload to sort out perceived
differences in presentation. I'd take the all-electric panel
on a budget, combined with the SIMPLE AND FAMILIAR DG-AH-TC
presentation any day . . . the only Band-Aid I'd pile on top
of that combination is a wing-leveler with heading hold
or GPS track modes where the wing leveler gets guidance
data completely independent of the DG/AH.
If you can't live to tell the tale with this combination,
then it was simply your day to encounter the worst (thunder storm,
ice, micro-burst, mountain top, or television tower or
whatever) in recent history.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Hyde <DonH(at)axonn.com> |
| Subject: | Vacuum reliability |
At SNF, I had a delightful and enlightening conversation with Carol Aramburu
of Kansas Instrument Sales & Service about rebuilt gyros. I asked why
electric gyros were so expensive and she said "It's the circuit board".
So, is that circuit board an inverter to run the AC motors? Are those units
similar to the military AC units, but with an inverter stuffed inside the
case?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 9:34 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum reliability
>
>
> III"
>
>
> >
> >I have had electric turn coordinators replaced more often
> than the vacuum DG
> >and Horizon. Brushes and bearings go bad!
>
> Different breed of cat . . . the torque motor in a T/C
> does have brushes . . . gyros are AC motors with no
> brushes.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
I'm building a RV9A and planning some of the wiring for items in the wings
and want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
I have Bob's book (aeroelectric connection) and have done my calculations
based on the formulas provided there.
First is the pitot tube which draws 8 amps and the wiring run is about 20
feet one way. I plan to ground it to the airframe. My calc's say that 16 awg
should be adequate, but Gretz says that I should use 14. This is what
prompted me to question my calculations.
The other items are as follows:
Strobe - 7 amps, 25' run each way, is 16 awg ok?
Nav lights - 26 watts, 25' each way, is 18 awg ok?
Landing light - 100 watts, 23' each way, is 16 awg ok?
Auto pilot servo - 3.6 amps, 20' each way, is 18 awg ok?
I plan to ground all of the listed items to the airframe unless there is
some reason not to.
Also, all of the wiring runs that I listed are conservative, meaning
probably not that long.
I would appreciate any input on this so that I can order some wire from B&C
as soon as possible.
Thanks,
Cliff
www.barefootpilot.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Im7shannon(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 4/23/01 12:20:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com writes:
> I'm building a RV9A and planning some of the wiring for items in the wings
> and want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
> I have Bob's book (aeroelectric connection) and have done my calculations
> based on the formulas provided there.
> First is the pitot tube which draws 8 amps and the wiring run is about 20
> feet one way. I plan to ground it to the airframe. My calc's say that 16
awg
> should be adequate, but Gretz says that I should use 14. This is what
> prompted me to question my calculations.
>
> The other items are as follows:
> Strobe - 7 amps, 25' run each way, is 16 awg ok?
> Nav lights - 26 watts, 25' each way, is 18 awg ok?
> Landing light - 100 watts, 23' each way, is 16 awg ok?
> Auto pilot servo - 3.6 amps, 20' each way, is 18 awg ok?
>
> I plan to ground all of the listed items to the airframe unless there is
> some reason not to.
> Also, all of the wiring runs that I listed are conservative, meaning
> probably not that long.
>
> I would appreciate any input on this so that I can order some wire from B&C
> as soon as possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Cliff
> www.barefootpilot.com
Cliff, this is pretty much what I came up with, only I upped the wire one
size over what the calc came out to. The weight penalty was not much to worry
about compared to my paranoia about smoking wires at night. I used 16 for nav
lights, 14 for ducworth landing light, and used the shielded cables that came
with the strobe kit. I think these were 16AWG also. I also used 16 for tail
light.
Kevin in WA -9A finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>I'm building a RV9A and planning some of the wiring for items in the wings
>and want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
>I have Bob's book (aeroelectric connection) and have done my calculations
>based on the formulas provided there.
>First is the pitot tube which draws 8 amps and the wiring run is about 20
>feet one way. I plan to ground it to the airframe. My calc's say that 16 awg
>should be adequate, but Gretz says that I should use 14. This is what
>prompted me to question my calculations.
AWG14 wouldn't hurt but your calculations are correct.
20' of AWG16 would give you about .6v drop at 8A . .
a tolerable loss.
>The other items are as follows:
>Strobe - 7 amps, 25' run each way, is 16 awg ok
>Nav lights - 26 watts, 25' each way, is 18 awg ok?
Nav lights are an interesting special case. Each light
is only 2Amps suggesting that 22AWG would power the light.
25' of 22AWG is .4 ohms giving a voltage drop of 0.8 volts
at 2A . . . a tad much. Dropping to 20AWG gives us
a drop of 0.5 volts . . . okay. Now, we're tying
three loads to one breaker and the wire needs to
be rated for TOTAL load . . . in this case 20AWG is
still okay attached to a 7A fuse.
However, I note the phrase "each way" . . . are your
lighting circuit round trip wire lengths? You can ground
lighting locally in a metal airplane and avoid the round
trip votlage drops.
>Landing light - 100 watts, 23' each way, is 16 awg ok?
>Auto pilot servo - 3.6 amps, 20' each way, is 18 awg ok?
>I plan to ground all of the listed items to the airframe unless there is
>some reason not to.
Hmm . . . now I am lost. Need some clarification of "each way" . . .
>Also, all of the wiring runs that I listed are conservative, meaning
>probably not that long.
>
>I would appreciate any input on
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
4/23/01
In a message dated 04/23/2001 2:52:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com (Bill Irvine
)writes:
<<......thanks for the interesting info. I'll have to check
into it more closely. You obviously have more
experience than I. The funny thing is, I haven't
heard of anyone dying from an electric gyro failure,
and yet failed vacuum systems have killed...how many
in the last year? Carnahan in Missouri. Jacoby(?) in
New York. .......... >>
Hello Bill, Some background info. Sometime around 1976-1979 a corporate jet
departed Washington National at night in the soup with a load of executives.
It crashed into a town house development around Herndon / Reston VA (if I
remember right) -- all fatal.
The investigation came to the conclusion that one of the two electric powered
attitude gyros aboard had failed. The pilots could not solve the conflict and
crashed.
The result of that crash is that now certain categories of aircraft are
required to have 3 attitude indicators so that two out of three would
hopefully be telling the truth and the pilots could follow the two good ones.
The third attitude gyro installed is frequently a small indicator called a
"peanut gyro". A company called JET used to build them and advertise them
widely.
Makes you sort of wonder about the confidence that those of us way down on
the food chain should place in a single vacuum powered attitude gyro with an
electrically powered turn coordinator or turn and bank indicator as back up.
OC Baker
PS: At the slightest provocation I will leap up on my soap box and deliver
impassioned words about the differences between the turn coordinator and the
turn and bank indicator and the superiority of the latter for partial panel
flight.
PPS: The first significant MV-22 Osprey accident (non fatal, flown by company
test pilot) was caused by technicians improperly connecting up two of the
three attitude sensors feeding the fly by wire system. So high tech and
redundancy is no guarantee of success either.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "K.M." <kemo4flyul(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Parts Express specials....... |
I attended Bob's seminar in SLC this weekend and
brought this company to everyones attention. Although
it's dedicated more towards the home and car audio
realm, they do offer some great electronic equipment.
I have scanned their most recent sales flyer with
relevant parts. Take a look at their web page and see
what you think of them. They have provided me with
excellent customer service over the past 5+ years that
I have used them for supplies.
http://www.parts-express.com/
Has anyone used parts from this company before???
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
Hi OC,
> The investigation came to the conclusion that one of the two
> electric powered
> attitude gyros aboard had failed. The pilots could not solve
> the conflict and
> crashed.
I would have thought that a corporate jet would have the super deluxe gyros
with the little orange INOP flag that pops out when there's insufficient
suction or electricity. Are those flags also susceptible to failure? Or
are there types of failures the flag don't indicate, such as failure of the
instrument itself rather than power to the instrument?
> PS: At the slightest provocation I will leap up on my soap
> box and deliver
> impassioned words about the differences between the turn
> coordinator and the
> turn and bank indicator and the superiority of the latter for
> partial panel
> flight.
I'll admit I'm curious. I believe that's a debate that has raged on for
some time but I'm not familiar with all the fine points. I searched around
a bit and found this contrary position (perhaps a starting point of
reference for the soap box oration):
http://archive.forpilots.com/archive/rec.aviation.ifr/4/msg4197.htm
My rudimentary understanding is that the TC will more quickly show a
deviation in bank from straight and level and in the correct direction but
will also prematurely show a return to wings level.
As a point of curiosity, I noticed that some call it a turn & bank indicator
and others call it a turn & slip indicator. My understanding is that it
doesn't indicate bank, so wouldn't the latter term be more accurate?
...just found more posts on the topic--turn & bank is apparently the
original name of the instrument. Actually, TC doesn't show bank either,
just rate of change in bank (i.e., rate of roll).
Regards,
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
You wrote:
>PS: At the slightest provocation I will leap up on my soap box and deliver
>impassioned words about the differences between the turn coordinator and the
>turn and bank indicator and the superiority of the latter for partial panel
>flight.
Greetings OC -
Consider yourself provoked ;-)
I'm a non-instrument-rated, 300+ hr. private pilot. I'm building a
tandem taildragger (RANS S-7) with LIMITED panel space. I had planned
to install a turn coordinator for reference in case the horizon
becomes "iffy".
Please explain why I should use the turn and slip indicator.
Thank you -
Bill Mills
Castro Valley, Calif (SF bay area)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
> >PS: At the slightest provocation I will leap up on my soap box and deliver
> >impassioned words about the differences between the turn coordinator and the
> >turn and bank indicator and the superiority of the latter for partial panel
>
>I'm a non-instrument-rated, 300+ hr. private pilot. I'm building a
>tandem taildragger (RANS S-7) with LIMITED panel space. I had planned
>to install a turn coordinator for reference in case the horizon
>becomes "iffy".
>Please explain why I should use the turn and slip indicator.
>Bill Mills
My first choice would be a Navaid wing leveller. It's light, works like a
turn coordinator but if things get difficult it can fly the airplane for
you and free up some brain power for decision making.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobDarrah(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
In a message dated 4/24/01 1:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
You will never (hardly ever?) miss read which direction you are turning with
a turn needle. A turn coordinator reads opposite of a artificial horizon and
can be (and is) sometimes miss-read.
Bob Darrah
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
>My first choice would be a Navaid wing leveller. It's light, works like a
>turn coordinator but if things get difficult it can fly the airplane for
>you and free up some brain power for decision making.
>
>Graham
Thanks Graham -
I agree that a wing leveler would be ideal, however, I do want to
keep this plane as simple as possible. A turn coordinator, OR
turn/slip indicator is "must have" equipment but the associated
servo, wiring, etc. for a wing leveler, are more than I want to
install/spend.
This is all in the planning stages and I appreciate any input.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ENewton57(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
In a message dated 4/24/01 8:26:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
courierboy(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< >My first choice would be a Navaid wing leveller. It's light, works like a
>turn coordinator but if things get difficult it can fly the airplane for
>you and free up some brain power for decision making.
> >>
I've been thinking along the same lines but was wondering how well the navain
works in turbulence. It seems that you will invariably encounter turbulence
to some degree when in clouds. Can anyone with a working navaid comment on
its effectiveness in turbulent conditions. Does it disengage at some point
in turbulence?
Thanks,
Eric Newton - Long Beach, Mississippi
RV-6A N57ME (Reserved) (wiring the panel)
http://www.ericsrv6a.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Vacuum reliability |
>
>At SNF, I had a delightful and enlightening conversation with Carol Aramburu
>of Kansas Instrument Sales & Service about rebuilt gyros. I asked why
>electric gyros were so expensive and she said "It's the circuit board".
>
>So, is that circuit board an inverter to run the AC motors? Are those units
>similar to the military AC units, but with an inverter stuffed inside the
>case?
>
I believe that is correct. . . further, if the gyro has
position pickoffs for interface to an autopilot, there
may be some circuitry associated with that also.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <alkritzm(at)collins.rockwell.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum reliability |
5.0.6 |December 14, 2000) at 04/24/2001 10:00:58 AM
>I have had electric turn coordinators replaced more often than the vacuum
DG
>and Horizon. Brushes and bearings go bad!
Different breed of cat . . . the torque motor in a T/C
does have brushes . . . gyros are AC motors with no
brushes.
For something really different take a look at
http://www.pcflightsystems.com/
Affordable Certified solid state gyros can't be very far away.
Alan Kritzman
RV-8 looking for gyros.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Koval" <ronko(at)corecomm.net> |
| Subject: | Quick Shot Information Booklet |
Friends,
There is a publication that contains nice compilation of single page
connector pin out details for most avionics. It is called "Quick Shot
Information Booklet".
Does anyone know of who publishes it or where I can find a supplier for
this booklet?
Ron Koval
N9850U
Aurora, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | RE: turn-and-slip indicator |
previous message:
I'm a non-instrument-rated, 300+ hr. private pilot. I'm building a
tandem taildragger (RANS S-7) with LIMITED panel space. I had planned
to install a turn coordinator for reference in case the horizon
becomes "iffy".
Please explain why I should use the turn and slip indicator.
Thank you -
Bill Mills
Castro Valley, Calif (SF bay area)
I'm not really the expert, but here is my experience with turn coordinators:
I read that the "turn coordinator" got its start with the need for autopilot
information - a rate-based autopilot (like S-TEC) uses the turn coordinator
as its roll input. The "turn-and-slip" indicator indicates only yaw rate
(rate of turn about a vertical axis) and yaw rate isn't responsive enough to
aileron movements to give a good feedback. So someone found that tilting
the axis of the gyro some corrected this problem - and that's the only
difference between the two instruments. I find that flying partial panel
the best way to stay out of trouble is to use the rudder as the primary
input. I leave the wheel alone and keep the turn coordinator happy to hold
the turn rate to zero. Much more stable than using aileron and chasing
adverse yaw. Problem is when trying to stop a turn the indicator will say
the wings are level (rate of turn zero) before they really are and as soon
as a relieve rudder pressure it will indicate a turn again. Not real great,
but manageable. I believe that the rate-based autopilot I installed is a
no-go item for IFR as it works from the electric gyro and doesn't depend on
the vacuum system. I don't have a vacuum back-up and I feel that the
autopilot is an effective - and safer - alternative. For a VFR-only plane
it might be a moot point as you would have to be in IFR conditions (first
failure - hopefully very unlikely) and then simultaneously have a vacuum
loss (second failure - very unlikely) to have a problem. Two simultaneous
failure modes? Not hardly likely to be precise about it.
Just my opinion.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
4/24/01
In a message dated 04/24/2001 2:53:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com (Bob Nuckolls) writes:
<< Different breed of cat . . . the torque motor in a T/C
does have brushes . . . gyros are AC motors with no
brushes. Bob . . . >>
Hello Bob, Are you implying that turn coordinators (and turn and bank
indicators) do not have gyros in them?
Can you please provide us a brief tutorial (with some reference sources) on
the differences between turn coordinators, turn and bank indicators, and
gyros?
Many thanks, OC Baker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | partial panel backups |
4/24/01
In a message dated 04/24/2001 2:53:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< I'm a non-instrument-rated, 300+ hr. private pilot. I'm building a
tandem taildragger (RANS S-7) with LIMITED panel space. I had planned to
install a turn coordinator for reference in case the horizon
becomes "iffy". Please explain why I should use the turn and slip indicator.
Thank you - Bill Mills Castro Valley, Calif (SF bay area) >>
Hello Bill, I'll be happy to share my prejudices with you (and some others).
First off I congratulate you on the use of the term "turn and slip indicator"
because the commonly called "turn and bank indicator" does not show angle of
bank, it shows rate of turn about the airplane's vertical axis. But we are
stuck, sort of, with the common terminology.*
For the purpose of this typing I'd like to use TC as an abbreviation for the
turn coordinator and T&B for the turn and bank indicator.
I believe that IMC flight, particularly by a single pilot, is very serious
business (recent newsworthy events tend to bear this out). When the primary
attitude indicator(s) in an instrument panel fail the pilot must rely on back
up indicators to accomplish two main functions, pitch attitude and bank
angle. Let's leave pitch attitude for a different discussion and concentrate
on bank angle for now.
In using a backup indicator for bank angle in IMC the pilot wants to
accomplish three things: 1) He wants his wings to be essentially level most
of the time. 2) He wants to return his wings to a level attitude should they
stray from that desired condition. 3) He wants to make very small bank angle,
very positively controlled turns when the need for a turn arises.
The needle in a T&B allows him to do these things, and in a particularly
ergonomic manner if his aircraft is control stick equipped. Just move the
stick in the direction that you want the needle to move.
On the other hand a TC also provides rate of roll information as well as rate
of turn indication, but it does it at the expense of a much more sensitive
(read unstable or jumpy) rate of turn indication. But who needs rate of roll
to accomplish the 1), 2), 3) things listed above? The pilot's scan rate, the
need for mostly wings level flying, and the small bank angles involved for
any prudent turn make rate of roll information largely useless.
The TC also provides a nice little airplane to look at to help the pilot
visualize his (jumpy) wing attitude with respect to the horizon. On the
downside some pilots have mistakenly believed that they could also get pitch
attitude information from a TC and have suffered from that belief. Some TC's
even say right on them "No Pitch Information" to warn the unwary. If a pilot
feels the need of the little airplane to visualize what is happening with his
wings in IMC I would respectfully suggest that he should not be in IMC.
As far as the slip and skid indicator part of the instrument is concerned
that is immaterial in choosing between them because the little ball in fluid
in the curved tube should function identically in both instruments. (Or in a
completely separate instrument for that matter).
I might also note that FAR 91.205 (d) (3) calls for a "Gyroscopic
rate-of-turn indicator, except on.........." It doesn't say anything about a
rate-of -roll indicator.
I believe that TC's were developed by marketing types who were trying to sell
yoke equipped, tricycle landing gear airplanes to the great automobile
driving public (nothing wrong with that) and that the developers were not
very experienced instrument rated pilots with the true best interests of
their customers at heart.
While instructing instrument rating applicants I tell them over and over
(because it takes a long time for it to soak in) "In single pilot IMC you
need all the help you can get". This applies in seemingly small mundane
matters whether it is in the way of cockpit equipment / management or
instrument interpretation.
I think a T&B gives the pilot flying IMC on backup instruments more help than
a TC.
OC Baker
*PS: I have another whole soap box that I get up on when people, particularly
casual, lazy journalists, misuse terminology and that misuse becomes
widespread. This results in seriously damaging our ability to communicate by
requiring us to redefine / restate what we really mean every time we use a
term.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
>
> I'm a non-instrument-rated, 300+ hr. private pilot. I'm building a
> tandem taildragger (RANS S-7) with LIMITED panel space. I had planned
> to install a turn coordinator for reference in case the horizon
> becomes "iffy".
> Please explain why I should use the turn and slip indicator.
>
*** I think I can answer this...
The Turn&Slip has a gyro that stands straight up & down. So it responds
only to actual yaw of the fuselage. This was deemed inadequate for
controlling a wing leveler or autopilot, so the turn coordinator was
developed. The TC's gyro is tilted forward, so it responds not only to
actual turns, but also to banking or sideways tilting of the fuselage. This
is good for an autopilot, because it gives it warning that a turn is going
to happen, so it ( the autopilot ) can level the wings before an undesired
turn actually takes place. It also enables the autopilot to make the
airplane fly wings-level, whereas a turn&slip-based autopilot would
just as soon fly with one wing low, as long as it was going straight ( the
autopilot can't "see" the ball ).
The forward tilt of the TC makes it hypersensitive to fuselage attitude,
so it has to be highly damped, more so than an ordinary turn&slip. The
combination of:
* The extra damping.
* The confusing "little airplane" presentation
* The extra-small slip-skid ball
...all make the TC inferior for hand-flying.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hausding, Sid" <sid(at)freeway.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always thought a small
rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
greatest indicator of all...............think about? Moves forward, you're
diving; moves backward, you're climbing; leans to the right .........well,
you get the idea! :-)
Sid
I'm going to patent the idea!
----- Original Message -----
From: <BobDarrah(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:22 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
:
: In a message dated 4/24/01 1:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
: aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
:
:
: >
:
: You will never (hardly ever?) miss read which direction you are turning
with
: a turn needle. A turn coordinator reads opposite of a artificial horizon
and
: can be (and is) sometimes miss-read.
:
: Bob Darrah
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
> I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always
> thought a small
> rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
> greatest indicator of all...............think about?
That's a simple accelerometer.
> Moves
> forward, you're
> diving;
or decelerating.
> moves backward, you're climbing;
or accelerating.
> leans to the right
> .........well,
> you get the idea! :-)
Makes me want to go back and read about ANR retrofitting military aviation
helmets -- you know, in case of turbelence with a rubber ball hanging there.
;-)
> Sid
> I'm going to patent the idea!
Good luck!
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
Sid wrote:
> I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always thought a
small
> rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
> greatest indicator of all
Once you learn to fly, you will see just how simplistic it is!!
Hal Kempthorne
RV6a N7HK (Valentine) FLYING
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
Simplistic indeed!!
If one were to rely on the ball on a string for attitude information one
could fly (for example) a coordinated spiral right into the ground while the
string was perfectly "vertical" relative to the cockpit. This is precisely
what the "ball" installed in the turn coordinator tells us.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS (under construction)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hausding, Sid" <sid(at)freeway.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
> I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always thought a
small
> rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
> greatest indicator of all...............think about? Moves forward,
you're
> diving; moves backward, you're climbing; leans to the right
.........well,
> you get the idea! :-)
> Sid
> I'm going to patent the idea!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BobDarrah(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:22 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
>
> :
> : In a message dated 4/24/01 1:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
> : aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> :
> :
> : >
> :
> : You will never (hardly ever?) miss read which direction you are turning
> with
> : a turn needle. A turn coordinator reads opposite of a artificial
horizon
> and
> : can be (and is) sometimes miss-read.
> :
> : Bob Darrah
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
Rob Housman wrote:
> If one were to rely on the ball on a string for attitude information
Reminds me of an idea published by a New Zealander (Oh, the shame!)
during the First World War.
He was concerned at the number of aircraft crashes, so he suggested that
they should dangle a heavy weight from the aircraft's COG, thus ensuring
stability. Obviously, the weight would be pulled up inside the aircraft
for takeoff and landing.
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Backup Turn&Slip |
Hello,
Regardless of how much I like the turn&slip over the TC, I'm stuck
with the TC, because my Sundowner has a Century I autopilot - or am I?
Is there anything to stop me from relocating the autopilot's TC elsewhere
in the panel, and sticking a turn&slip in the standard T? ( Especially
since I have a perfectly good turn&slip in my junque )
Or is this one of those politically ( at the FSDO ) unfeasable things?
A year or two ago, I was reading an article in AOPA Pilot about a new
small certificated airplane. They met their FAR23 requirement for backup
gyro power with a pair of 9V rectangular alkaline batteries. The TC had
a switch next to it: Normal/Emergency. When you set it to emergency, the
TC would be powered from the alkalines, which they claimed had enough juice
to power the gyro for a couple of hours. This seems like an eminently
sensible idea to me, and something that I would not at all mind implementing
for my own plane. I imagine that those 9V alkalines would be a "replace at
annual" item.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
The ball could be perfectly centered while you auger into the earth in a perfect
1G spiral i believe!
"Hausding, Sid" wrote:
>
> I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always thought a small
> rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
> greatest indicator of all...............think about? Moves forward, you're
> diving; moves backward, you're climbing; leans to the right .........well,
> you get the idea! :-)
> Sid
> I'm going to patent the idea!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BobDarrah(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:22 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
> :
> : In a message dated 4/24/01 1:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
> : aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> :
> :
> : >
> :
> : You will never (hardly ever?) miss read which direction you are turning
> with
> : a turn needle. A turn coordinator reads opposite of a artificial horizon
> and
> : can be (and is) sometimes miss-read.
> :
> : Bob Darrah
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude gyros |
>I've been thinking along the same lines but was wondering how well the navain
>works in turbulence. It seems that you will invariably encounter turbulence
>to some degree when in clouds. Can anyone with a working navaid comment on
>its effectiveness in turbulent conditions. Does it disengage at some point
>in turbulence?
Not automatically. You need to switch it off. I never flew in cloud or in
strong turbulence but it did handle moderate chop at least as well as I
did. It does need careful adjustment and initial set up.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
Further, That is exactly why without visual references, your sense of
balance will put you in a "Spiral of Death!" Your semi-circular Canals of
your ear reach the same balance to tell you that you are going straight when
you aren't!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <ROB-HOUSMAN(at)worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
> Simplistic indeed!!
>
> If one were to rely on the ball on a string for attitude information one
> could fly (for example) a coordinated spiral right into the ground while
the
> string was perfectly "vertical" relative to the cockpit. This is
precisely
> what the "ball" installed in the turn coordinator tells us.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Europa XS (under construction)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hausding, Sid" <sid(at)freeway.net>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
>
> >
> > I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always thought a
> small
> > rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
> > greatest indicator of all...............think about? Moves forward,
> you're
> > diving; moves backward, you're climbing; leans to the right
> .........well,
> > you get the idea! :-)
> > Sid
> > I'm going to patent the idea!
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <BobDarrah(at)aol.com>
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:22 AM
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
> >
> >
> > :
> > : In a message dated 4/24/01 1:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > : aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> > :
> > :
> > : >
> > :
> > : You will never (hardly ever?) miss read which direction you are
turning
> > with
> > : a turn needle. A turn coordinator reads opposite of a artificial
> horizon
> > and
> > : can be (and is) sometimes miss-read.
> > :
> > : Bob Darrah
> > :
> > :
> > :
> > :
> > :
> > :
> > :
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
1G ... or 2G or 0.5G ... hang it with a spring and have a make-shift
G-meter.
I think the hanging ball could give SOME pitch information -- but only in
the context of correctly interpreting other instruments (airspeed, VSI,
altimeter, etc.). Maybe if you replace the rubber ball with a hanging
gyroscope, you'd be getting closer to having a backup artificial horizon --
ignoring precession errors from the string tether.
Actually, I find the 9V gyro power backup idea really interesting. Anyone
know more about that?
Regards,
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland, CA
> The ball could be perfectly centered while you auger into the
> earth in a perfect
> 1G spiral i believe!
>
> "Hausding, Sid" wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I
> always thought a small
> > rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling
> would be the
> > greatest indicator of all...............think about? Moves
> forward, you're
> > diving; moves backward, you're climbing; leans to the
> right .........well,
> > you get the idea! :-)
> > Sid
> > I'm going to patent the idea!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jayeandscott" <jayeandscott(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
You might find that, at 1G or more such as in a turn, it will always be
perpendicular to the floor....
----- Original Message -----
From: Hausding, Sid <sid(at)freeway.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
> I know this may sound a little too simplistic, but, I always thought a
small
> rubber ball hanging on a string from the cockpit ceiling would be the
> greatest indicator of all...............think about? Moves forward,
you're
> diving; moves backward, you're climbing; leans to the right
.........well,
> you get the idea! :-)
> Sid
> I'm going to patent the idea!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BobDarrah(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 9:22 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn coordinator
>
>
> :
> : In a message dated 4/24/01 1:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
> : aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> :
> :
> : >
> :
> : You will never (hardly ever?) miss read which direction you are turning
> with
> : a turn needle. A turn coordinator reads opposite of a artificial
horizon
> and
> : can be (and is) sometimes miss-read.
> :
> : Bob Darrah
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>4/24/01
>
>In a message dated 04/24/2001 2:53:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com (Bob Nuckolls) writes:
>
><< Different breed of cat . . . the torque motor in a T/C
> does have brushes . . . gyros are AC motors with no
> brushes. Bob . . . >>
>
>Hello Bob, Are you implying that turn coordinators (and turn and bank
>indicators) do not have gyros in them?
>
>Can you please provide us a brief tutorial (with some reference sources) on
>the differences between turn coordinators, turn and bank indicators, and
>gyros?
No, both devices T/C and T/B indicators have gyros, but most
are relatively slow speed devices with DC motors and brushes.
Modern designs are brushless with solid state power supplies
and should last a very long time . . . older ones will require
more maintenance than you'd like. Cheap older ones more
maintenance still.
There original Turn and Bank (or more properly called turn
and skid) indicators sense turning rate about the yaw axis
only. Turn Coordinator gyros are pitched slightly off vertical
so as to have some degree of sensitivity in roll axis as well.
This helps an autopilot (or pilot) anticipate a turning acceleration
before it develops very far.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob & Rita Falstad <RandBFalstad(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Prestolite Alternator & Voltage Regulator |
My father-in-law and I are building a GlaStar. The electrical system and
panel are my responsibility.
We have a Prestolite alternator P/N ALV-6421 (12V/60A), S/N A10840 for our
Lyc O-360, which came from another project. Can anyone tell me where I can
find some specs on this alternator? Does it have an internal voltage
regulator? Is it a good candidate for B&C's LR3B-14 voltage regulator?
Any general comments on this alternator, especially regarding reliability?
I tried the Prestolite site and it wasn't very helpful.
(This is my first posting to this list. I hope I'm doing it right.)
Best regards,
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Quick Shot Information Booklet |
I've sold a couple to local shops. They cost 49.00 plus ship. The large
suppliers have them in stock.
Steven DiNieri
Niagara Falls, New York
RV-6A, P28A-160
There is a publication that contains nice compilation of single page
connector pin out details for most avionics. It is called "Quick Shot
Information Booklet".
Does anyone know of who publishes it or where I can find a supplier for
this booklet?
Ron Koval
N9850U
Aurora, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Prestolite Alternator & Voltage |
Regulator
>We have a Prestolite alternator P/N ALV-6421 (12V/60A), S/N A10840 for our
>Lyc O-360, which came from another project. Can anyone tell me where I can
>find some specs on this alternator?
What you want to know? Its 12V 60A with EXTERNAL regulator.
>Does it have an internal voltage regulator?
Nope.
>Is it a good candidate for B&C's LR3B-14 voltage regulator?
Yes, it will work very nicely with a Linear VR.
>Any general comments on this alternator, especially regarding reliability?
If the armature has been balanced it will perform well. If not it will
probably crack the "U" shaped mount on the engine in a few hundred
hours. The O-360 engines have a vibration that seems to stress the mount,
and the alternator "buzzing" from its own imbalance seems to encourage
cracking of this mount on a regular basis.
If yours has not been dynamically balanced, then this can be done now.
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Backup Turn&Slip |
I did this swap in my Grumman Cougar. It is perfectly legal if the
turn&slip is listed as an alternate on the generic equipment list. Just
make a logbook entry. The Century I AP is driven off of the attitude
gyro so the swap has no effect on it.
I found that the roll due to turbulance caused the TC to thrash around
to the point of being unusable. The turn&slip is not affected by roll.
Jim Bean
PS Cougar sold to pay for RV-8
Jerome Kaidor wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Regardless of how much I like the turn&slip over the TC, I'm stuck
> with the TC, because my Sundowner has a Century I autopilot - or am I?
> Is there anything to stop me from relocating the autopilot's TC elsewhere
> in the panel, and sticking a turn&slip in the standard T? ( Especially
> since I have a perfectly good turn&slip in my junque )
>
> Or is this one of those politically ( at the FSDO ) unfeasable things?
>
> A year or two ago, I was reading an article in AOPA Pilot about a new
> small certificated airplane. They met their FAR23 requirement for backup
> gyro power with a pair of 9V rectangular alkaline batteries. The TC had
> a switch next to it: Normal/Emergency. When you set it to emergency, the
> TC would be powered from the alkalines, which they claimed had enough juice
> to power the gyro for a couple of hours. This seems like an eminently
> sensible idea to me, and something that I would not at all mind implementing
> for my own plane. I imagine that those 9V alkalines would be a "replace at
> annual" item.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulliz(at)cix.co.uk (Paul & Liz Atkinson) |
Bob
I am about to set up my comm antenna (copper tape in
the fin). In AEC you say that nearby metal will produce
capacitance effects which will affect the final length
of the antenna. My question is how near is nearby. I
have yet to decide on the position of the battery
which could be as close as 3 feet, and the
engine(tractor) is not installed. Also should I be
concerned about such things as garage doors.
Many thanks
Paul Atkinson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Steward <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> |
>I am about to set up my comm antenna (copper tape in
>the fin). In AEC you say that nearby metal will produce
>capacitance effects which will affect the final length
>of the antenna. My question is how near is nearby. I
>have yet to decide on the position of the battery
>which could be as close as 3 feet, and the
>engine(tractor) is not installed. Also should I be
>concerned about such things as garage doors.
The antenna is most affected by the proximity of metal (or other conductors
like carbon fiber) to the TIP of the antenna. Ideally you'd like them to
be 1/4 wave length away (the length of a standard antenna).
Most copper tape antennas are just installed with a fixed length
pre-measured in the plans. The SWR can be peaked at one frequency at the
expense of others. So picking a length that is good for the middle of the
Com band (118-137 Mhz) is the best way. Most plans have already done the
math (find wave length by dividing the frequency into the speed of light,
and then divide by 4 to get 1/4 wave antenna) and all you have to do is
install the tape.
3' is plenty, especially since the TIP of the antenna will be substantially
more than 3' away (I can't imagine you have the battery mounted at the top
of the rudder, though that would make an interesting mass balance to
prevent flutter...)
Another Bob
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless(at)barefootpilot.com> |
Bob,
By each way I just mean the distance from the power source to the light
fixture. I do plan to ground to the airframe and I understand that this will
have less resistance than running a dedicated ground wire. For planning
purposes I was just assuming that grounding through the airframe had the
same resistance as the wiring run. Should I assume that there will be NO
resistance and thus no voltage loss by grounding to frame? Or is there some
standard resistance value that I should use for planning purposes?
Thanks,
Cliff
>
> However, I note the phrase "each way" . . . are your
> lighting circuit round trip wire lengths? You can ground
> lighting locally in a metal airplane and avoid the round
> trip votlage drops.
>
> >Landing light - 100 watts, 23' each way, is 16 awg ok?
> >Auto pilot servo - 3.6 amps, 20' each way, is 18 awg ok?
>
> >I plan to ground all of the listed items to the airframe unless there is
> >some reason not to.
>
>
> Hmm . . . now I am lost. Need some clarification of "each way" . . .
>
> >Also, all of the wiring runs that I listed are conservative, meaning
> >probably not that long.
> >
> >I would appreciate any input on
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator |
>
> I hang a jar of water off my whiskey compass for my indications !
> Larry
*** In a more serious vein, I'm told that in case of gyro failure,
you CAN keep the airplane upright with the whiskey compass - if you fly south.
For southerly headings, the compass leads your turns - so it gives early
and sensitive indication when they happen.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Backup Turn&Slip |
Hi Jim,
> I did this swap in my Grumman Cougar. It is perfectly legal if the
> turn&slip is listed as an alternate on the generic equipment list. Just
> make a logbook entry. The Century I AP is driven off of the attitude
> gyro so the swap has no effect on it.
*** No it doesn't. It runs off the TC. The TC even has the autopilot
control knobs on it. Are you sure you didn't have a Centery II or III?
- Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob
>I am about to set up my comm antenna (copper tape in
>the fin). In AEC you say that nearby metal will produce
>capacitance effects which will affect the final length
>of the antenna. My question is how near is nearby. I
>have yet to decide on the position of the battery
>which could be as close as 3 feet, and the
>engine(tractor) is not installed. Also should I be
>concerned about such things as garage doors.
>
>Many thanks
>
>Paul Atkinson
A couple of feet or so clearance will insure minimal effects
while tuning your antenna.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob,
>By each way I just mean the distance from the power source to the light
>fixture. I do plan to ground to the airframe and I understand that this will
>have less resistance than running a dedicated ground wire. For planning
>purposes I was just assuming that grounding through the airframe had the
>same resistance as the wiring run. Should I assume that there will be NO
>resistance and thus no voltage loss by grounding to frame? Or is there some
>standard resistance value that I should use for planning purposes?
>Thanks,
>Cliff
For practical purposes, ground path resistance in a metal
airframe is negligible . . . it's not zero but it's very
small compared to power wiring resistance.
This assumes of course that one takes pains to clean the
aluminum under the terminal and bolt it up right firmly
to get a moisture and gas tight joint between ground terminal
and airframe.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | partial panel backups |
4/25/01
In a message dated 04/25/2001 2:53:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com (Bill Mills and Graham Singleton)
write:
<< >I'm a non-instrument-rated, 300+ hr. private pilot. I'm building a
>tandem taildragger (RANS S-7) with LIMITED panel space. I had planned >to
install a turn coordinator for reference in case the horizon
>becomes "iffy". >Please explain why I should use the turn and slip
indicator. Bill Mills>>
<>
Hello Graham, I agree with you, but would like to add a few comments.
Any truly capable single piloted deliberate IMC equipped airplane should have
an autopilot of some sort -- the more capable the better. Fatigue alone is
sufficient justification for such equipment.
Any autopilot represents a significant step up in complexity, weight, cost,
and installation effort over either a turn and bank (slip or skid) indicator
or turn coordinator instrument.
The NAVAID people make it quite clear that their autopilot is not to be
considered adequate for legal IFR / IMC flight.
The NAVAID rate of roll / rate of turn indicators are small individual led
lights. Some VHF nav radios also use small individual led lights to show left
- right course deviation (act as a Course Deviation Indicator). If you
attempt to certify that VHF nav radio installation for legal IFR purposes the
feds will require you to also install a separate standard configuration type
CDI.
This leads one to believe that if you installed only the NAVAID autopilot
control box in your IFR legal instrument panel and tried to get the feds to
agree that the led's on that box met the requirements of FAR 91.205 (d) (3)
for a "Gyroscopic rate of turn indicator, except on........" that the feds
might also insist on a more conventional indicator for that gyroscopic rate
of turn presentation.
OC Baker
PS: I found it extremely interesting to date that every single posting on
this subject of turn and bank indicators versus turn coordinators for IMC
back up favored the turn and bank indicator over the turn coordinator. And
most gave some compelling rationale for their preference.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
| Subject: | partial panel backups |
> PS: I found it extremely interesting to date that every
> single posting on
> this subject of turn and bank indicators versus turn
> coordinators for IMC
> back up favored the turn and bank indicator over the turn
> coordinator. And
> most gave some compelling rationale for their preference.
Hi OC,
Yeah, that really is interesting. In the Usenet thread pertaining to the
same subject, the results were opposite (most all favoring the TC).
See, e.g., this post and you can follow the previous/next-in-thread links to
read others:
http://archive.forpilots.com/archive/rec.aviation.ifr/4/msg4197.htm
Regards,
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James D. Ivey" <jim(at)iveylaw.com> |
| Subject: | partial panel backups |
> PS: I found it extremely interesting to date that every
> single posting on
> this subject of turn and bank indicators versus turn
> coordinators for IMC
> back up favored the turn and bank indicator over the turn
> coordinator. And
> most gave some compelling rationale for their preference.
Just to clarify my last post, I'm still undecided on the matter and I'm
curious to hear everyone's perspective.
Regards,
Jim Ivey
jim(at)iveylaw.com
Oakland, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
> >Bob
> >I am about to set up my comm antenna (copper tape in
> >the fin). In AEC you say that nearby metal will produce
> >capacitance effects which will affect the final length
> >of the antenna. My question is how near is nearby.
> >Paul Atkinson
>
> A couple of feet or so clearance will insure minimal effects
> while tuning your antenna.
> Bob . . .
There is another "nearby" lump of metal in the Europa, in fact several. If
the 1/2 wave dipole is placed in the TE of the fin close to the lower tip 6
inches or so, there is the tailwheel spring, the rudder push rod and about
2 feet away the elevator push rod which is 8 feet long or thereabouts.
These aren't normally bonded or grounded.
It might make more sense to mount the antenna in the TE of the rudder,
nearly 2 feet further back from the metal parts.
Any further thoughts Bob?
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Speaker hookup question |
I just found a hidden speaker in my rv-4. The plane has a Escort II that
doesn't have a speaker output on the radio. There is an extra low level
audio output. Anyone have any ideas on how I could hook up the speaker
easily thru some sort of amp and switch setup. Any kits that you know of?
Regards,
Tom Velvick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 42V (36V) Cars? |
Hey Bob....not sure if you monitor, but the RV list has an interesting
thread on the future of 42VDC cars. Here's one such message cut and
pasted. Comments?
Mike
I only participate in the AeroElectric-List . . . working with a dozen
other got too big to work with. Thanks for the relay.
>
> Hi Tedd;
>
> It's not "some talk lately", it's here, and is going to very rapidly become the
"new" standard. The
> reason is the rapid and continuing growth of electrically driven accessories.
Power windows, power
> locks, power convertible tops, electric cooling fans, electric a/c-heater fans,
electric power
> steering pumps, electric water pumps, electric A/C compressors, electric wipers,
electric computers,
> power seats, electric self closing doors, electric self closing trunk lids, electric
hydraulic pumps
> for ABS brakes, electric hydraulic pumps for active suspension systems, etc.
etc. etc. I think you
> get the picture. All of these things, I think you'll agree, start to add up to
quite an impressive
> electrical load, use several miles of wires, and can become incredibly complex.
To make their life a
> little easier and to drastically reduce the weight and size of the wiring harnesses
the major auto
> manufacturers are changing to the higher voltage system much the same way that
in an industrial
> environment you wire your machinery for 600 volts and not 120 to reduce the wire
size and improve
> the transmission efficiency. (Yes I know, in the US it's usually 440 V)
Wire size is the smallest of the considerations . . . it's energy per pound
of
mechanism that's the strongest driver. There's a strong push to reduce mechanical
drives . . . things like pumps, fans, etc that are belt driven can be one-piece
devices with motors built in.
> The aviation implications could be that those items which you want to "borrow"
from the automotive
> arena will before too long all be 42 Volt.
> This could be good if you want to follow along as it will provide the same benefits
that the auto
> makers are realizing now. Lighter weight and smaller bundle size through drastically
reduced wire
> size. Weight is an important consideration isn't it ?? Snaking all those wires
out to the wing tips
> or up behind the panel would be much easier if everything were half size wouldn't
it ?? Remember
> that we are talking increasing the voltage by 3 1/2 times. This results in a
3 1/2 times reduction
> in current to transmit the same amount of work to the other end of the wire.
Look up the current
> rating of the various wire sizes to see what this does for your wire sizes.
Those starters we all
> complain about being too heavy suddenly got lighter as did your alternator. WOW!!
interesting??
> yes??
Not exactly. Wire size reduction between 14 vs. 28 volts made a big difference
in
a military machine or air transport category aircraft that had to carry a couple
hundred miles of wire just to hook things up . . . the wire weight in the average
single engine homebuilt probably doesn't add up to 10 pounds . . . there are
obviously
some savings to be realized with smaller wire but it's NOT the hundreds of pounds
saved in very large aircraft.
Batteries don't get much smaller . . . Lead-Acid batteries deliver so many watt-seconds
per pound . . . irrespective of how many cells you divide them into to set the
operating
voltage. Alternators and motors aren't going to get much smaller and lighter,
just more
power output to meet the demands of future designs. For example, you can take
a B&C L60
alternator and run it at 14V for 720 watts of output or 28V for 1440 watts of
output.
Now, if you NEED that kind of power, then there is some merit to the higher
voltage
system.
Our airplanes are going the OTHER way . . . full up IFR systems of yesteryear
took 30-40 amps continuous running loads . . . we're down to less than 25
today. I think it's possible to do a full up IFR equipment design that would
operated from the Rotax 18A alternator . . .
If you want to run an air-conditioner then it would undoubtedly be easier
to adapt a 42v motor/compressor assembly to your airplane than to figure
out how to belt drive a Freon pump from the engine. 42V makes it much
harder to use mechanical switches . . . it's really hard to put the fire
out at these elevated DC potentials. I suspect cars will go to all solid
state switching to address this problem.
I don't see any big weight savings coming over the hill for this big
voltage jump . . . it might make it easier to adapt some automotive
systems into the airplanes but this will be in addition to the systems
we already have . . i.e. the airplane gets heavier in order to take
advantage of automotive air conditioning.
This does not bode well for aviation. Our sources for low cost,
simple system components is going to dry up and be replaced with
more complex systems borrowed from the consumer market.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaker hookup question |
>
>I just found a hidden speaker in my rv-4. The plane has a Escort II that
>doesn't have a speaker output on the radio. There is an extra low level
>audio output. Anyone have any ideas on how I could hook up the speaker
>easily thru some sort of amp and switch setup. Any kits that you know of?
Do you ever fly without headsets where you would WANT
to try to hear and understand somebody talking to you
over the speaker?
First, I'd take a GOOD look at the speaker. 95% of the
speakers I've flown in rented TC aircraft are terrible.
If you want a cabin speaker, you want a device that sports
a HEAVY magnet for efficiency. If your present speaker
has the typical 1" diameter by 1" long magnet housing
(or smaller) I'd replace it with something beefier.
Radio Shack has some relatively small, wide range speakers
in the 4" to 5" sizes with 4-8 oz magnets on them.
There are relatively small speaker amplifiers that would
run from 14V and accept headphone level output from your
radio for amplification to speaker power levels. If
you really want to pursue this, I can get you a suitable
kit from a local electronics hobby store and mail it to
you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Backup Turn&Slip |
I must have been a Century II. My TC sure didn't have any AP knobs.
Jim Bean
Jerome Kaidor wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> > I did this swap in my Grumman Cougar. It is perfectly legal if the
> > turn&slip is listed as an alternate on the generic equipment list. Just
> > make a logbook entry. The Century I AP is driven off of the attitude
> > gyro so the swap has no effect on it.
> *** No it doesn't. It runs off the TC. The TC even has the autopilot
> control knobs on it. Are you sure you didn't have a Centery II or III?
>
> - Jerry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Thomas Velvick <tomvelvick(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaker hookup question |
>
>
> Do you ever fly without headsets where you would WANT
> to try to hear and understand somebody talking to you
> over the speaker?
Probably not. Just wanted to listen to ATIS through the speaker before I
started up the engine.
> First, I'd take a GOOD look at the speaker. 95% of the
> speakers I've flown in rented TC aircraft are terrible.
> If you want a cabin speaker, you want a device that sports
> a HEAVY magnet for efficiency. If your present speaker
> has the typical 1" diameter by 1" long magnet housing
> (or smaller) I'd replace it with something beefier.
> Radio Shack has some relatively small, wide range speakers
> in the 4" to 5" sizes with 4-8 oz magnets on them.
It is 3 inches in diameter by 1 inch thick so think it will work ok.
> There are relatively small speaker amplifiers that would
> run from 14V and accept headphone level output from your
> radio for amplification to speaker power levels. If
> you really want to pursue this, I can get you a suitable
> kit from a local electronics hobby store and mail it to
> you.
It is not an urgent project so I will look around at Radio Shack and see
what I can find. Really appreciate your time and input Bob.
Regards,
Tom Velvick
Peoria, AZ
N9233a rv-4
N188kj rv-6a wiring panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Century II problem |
I have a Mitchell/Century II A/P in my Bellanca Viking. It doesn't couple
the radios well, but up until lately, it has done a fine job of following
the DG heading bug.
Lately it will occasionally have a hard time picking up the heading bug..or
wander..once it finds it, it seems to work well. Turning it off and on
again usually helps. The failure is intermittent, and once it is working it
seems to continue pretty well.
When it is its failure mode, it will still follow the roll control if you
disengage it from the DG, so I know the servos are working well.
Anyone have any thoughts?
My immediate thought is to clean all harness conecctors/contacts.
Thanks for all of your expertise..it sure is nice to have some people who
know about these things to ask!!
Thanks, Dave Leonard N77FE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Duckett <perfeng(at)3rivers.net> |
Hi Floks,
To answer a few questions about different voltages being explored by the
auto makers...yes there are several different alternatives they are
exploring.
One of the biggest motivators is weight reduction of wiring and
components in the systems. Those of you that are familiar with "Ohms
Law" regarding voltage to amps as it relates to wiring size knows that a
higher voltage requires smaller wiring. Over simplified, those of you
that can remeber the old 6 Volt auto systems used huge (generally 4-0
battery cables and 10-12 ga. main buss) wiring. Todays 12 Volt systems
are half that size and weight. Most all the computer controls in late
model cars invert some of the systems voltage to A.C. because of
component size, better stability and more controlled signal.
Ford is working on several A.C. systems upwards of 100 volt nominal.
G.M. is researching both higher D.C. and A.C. systems. Some of the R&D
that I've heard about dealing with A.C. is they are even playing with
cycles in the 400 range. We're talking a main wire loom thats less than
the size of your little finger, primary buss feeds being 18-24ga. The
only problem I see is that if Ford goes one way, you can bet G.M. will
go another and so on, just to be different...as they always have!
Hope this helped.
Jim Duckett
Performance Engineering
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Duckett <perfeng(at)3rivers.net> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Higher Voltage |
Jim Duckett wrote:
> Ford is working on several A.C. systems upwards of 100 volt nominal.
> G.M. is researching both higher D.C. and A.C. systems. Some of the R&D
> that I've heard about dealing with A.C. is they are even playing with
> cycles in the 400 range.
I'm involved in a research project (not a car or plane) where the main
system bus is AC at 10kHz. Each component converts this to 12V or 5V as
necessary. The initial power source is solar panels, with 12V lead-acid
batteries for storage.
I was told (I'm not an electrical engineer) that one of the benefits of
this approach was that you couldn't get any sparks.
I'd be interested to hear from an EE about that, and also the
applicability of this approach to aircraft wiring.
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
listers,
The Aeroelectric Connection talks a lot about minimizing the number of
bolted joints because of their resistance. Is there some kind of
conductivity improving goose grease that can be used to improve the few
bolted joints that have to be used? Maybe something that fills up the
voids between the surfaces.
The stuff used on power transistors is what got me thinking along this
line but that is for improving -thermal- conductivity and is an
insulator
regards and TIA
Jim Bean
RV-8 installing battery in back.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
>
> bolted joints that have to be used? Maybe something that fills up the
> voids between the surfaces.
*** Once upon a time, I served as a technician at GTE Lenkurt, a telephone
equipment manufacturer. We built large racks of equipment. We used
aluminum ground busses. We had a special grease with embedded grit to
insure proper and lasting connections to these ground busses.
When the bolts were tightened down, the grit would cut through the
aluminum oxide. The grease ensured a gas-tight seal, and kept the aluminum
from re-oxidizing.
I have no idea if anything like this is available in the real world.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Duckett <perfeng(at)3rivers.net> |
Jim,
Like Jerome aluded to there are several dielectric compounds out there.
All that we've seen has a silicone grease base. For aluminum we use a
product called DEOX made by Ilsco. It's commonly used by electrical
contractors when connecting down feeds to the buss bars in junction
boxes and load centers. The stuff is very slightly acidic to insure no
resistance, voltage drop or heat due to oxidation.
Check your local electrical contractors supply, they'd have better
answers for you.
Hope this helps
Jim Duckett
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Wade" <chipmunk(at)uninets.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
There's also DeOxit from Caig Laboratories ( www.caig.com ). I like the
25 ml needle dispenser. I found it does a very good job of removing
corrosion from old terminal connections with or without disassembly. Just
place a drop, allow it to penetrate and react, then wipe the residue off. I
then place another drop to maintain a good connection. Same thing inside old
crimp terminals. I also use it when making a connection to an airframe. It's
not greasy so won't attract dirt. They have a lot of formulations for other
applications as well. -Bill
>
> Jim,
> Like Jerome aluded to there are several dielectric compounds out there.
> All that we've seen has a silicone grease base. For aluminum we use a
> product called DEOX made by Ilsco. It's commonly used by electrical
> contractors when connecting down feeds to the buss bars in junction
> boxes and load centers. The stuff is very slightly acidic to insure no
> resistance, voltage drop or heat due to oxidation.
> Check your local electrical contractors supply, they'd have better
> answers for you.
> Hope this helps
>
> Jim Duckett
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulliz(at)cix.co.uk (Paul & Liz Atkinson) |
Thanks to Bob, another Bob, and Graham for your 2 bobs
worth(as opposed to cents, and they are worth more by
the way :-) ).
Paul Atkinson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerome Kaidor <jerryk(at)best.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
>
> >
> > Jim,
> > Like Jerome aluded to there are several dielectric compounds out there.
> > All that we've seen has a silicone grease base.
*** I imagine that if you took pains to clean the aluminum, you could seal
it up with DC4.
Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
>
>listers,
>The Aeroelectric Connection talks a lot about minimizing the number of
>bolted joints because of their resistance. Is there some kind of
>conductivity improving goose grease that can be used to improve the few
>bolted joints that have to be used? Maybe something that fills up the
>voids between the surfaces.
>The stuff used on power transistors is what got me thinking along this
>line but that is for improving -thermal- conductivity and is an
>insulator
>regards and TIA
>Jim Bean
>RV-8 installing battery in back.
There are various "gunks and goops" used on some
bolted as well as crimped joints of large conductors
intended to reduce corrosion of the finished joint.
I don't think any of these products will improve on
the finished resistance of any joint . . . they might
help it stay stable by sealing out air and moisture.
A properly crimped or soldered terminal bolted down
with brass hardware and utilizing an internal tooth
lockwasher is about as good as you can do. Most of
the additives I've seen are somewhat greasy and probably
tend to collect dirt. If it were my airplane, I'd just
bolt 'em up dry.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
>
>>
>> bolted joints that have to be used? Maybe something that fills up the
>> voids between the surfaces.
>
>*** Once upon a time, I served as a technician at GTE Lenkurt, a telephone
>equipment manufacturer. We built large racks of equipment. We used
>aluminum ground busses. We had a special grease with embedded grit to
>insure proper and lasting connections to these ground busses.
>
> When the bolts were tightened down, the grit would cut through the
>aluminum oxide. The grease ensured a gas-tight seal, and kept the aluminum
>from re-oxidizing.
>
> I have no idea if anything like this is available in the real world.
There are some joint additives for mating aluminum conductors
to copper conductors . . . one product that comes to mind is
called No-Ox (see http://www.sanchem.com/ox.html) that has
been called out for pre-treatment of aluminum wires before
crimping them into plated copper terminals. Don't know about
embedded grit but products like No-Ox and even ordinary petroleum
or silicon based greases will help keep moisture and oxygen out
of the finished joint. When bolting ground leads down to the
aluminum airframe, tin plating on the copper terminal is generally
considered adequate isolation between normally antagonistic combination
of copper against aluminum. Here is one case that it sure doesn't
hurt to paint or grease the finished joint to prevent (or at least
slow down) ingress of gasses and moisture that will begin to eat
at the edge of what should already be a gas tight mechanical
interface held together with your bolt.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: unstable voltage regulator . . . |
Bob, I just got off the phone with Scott at Varga Enterprizes in
Chandler, AZ. I was discussing a problem with the voltage regulator in
our PA28-151. The old, original unit was replaced with a Lamar unit
#B00373-1, some years ago. It was replaced again in June of 1998. The
problem that we have been encountering is, the load meter oscillates
back and forth like a metronome. The needle deflects full scale with
the "low voltage" light flickering as it reached to low end of the
scale. We have replaced, in the last 2.5 years, the alternator,
battery, all of the aluminum wiring associated with the charging system,
the load meter itself, and the master switch. At the last annual, (last
week) our mechanic placed a "jumper" wire on the alternator to bypass
the VR and, the oscillations stopped. We are, and have been, of the
opinion, that the problem is with the VR. Scott says that you are the
World's "guru" when it comes to the world of aircraft electrical
systems. Have you any insight that you might be able to share with us
regarding this situation? Would appreciate any help.
Warren McIlvoy, President
Cherokee Air, LtD
warren.mcilvoy(at)asu.edu
Waren,
Just as an experiment, have your mechanic hook a wire
from the alternator's b-lead (main power output terminal)
to the regulator's field power input lead. Leave the alternator
switch off or pull the alternator field breaker.
If the alternator comes up stable then this is the
most likely scenario:
A regulator is a servo system. It looks at the bus
and steers the field current of an alternator to maintain
the desired bus voltage set point.
The regulator gets its information about bus voltage
through the same pathway as the field supply current.
On some production airplanes, this pathway has upwards
of 20 ohmic joints (wire crimps, closed contacts in
switches, solder joint, mated contacts in plugs, etc.)
in addition to perhaps 5-10 feet of 20AWG wire with
a resistance of about 10 milliohms per foot.
Aging of the ohmic joints raises their electrical
resistance. No single joint contributes a lot but
all totaled up, the supply circuit resistance can
exceed 100 milliohms.
Now, field current will vary normally between .5
and 4 amps depending on RPM and system loads. With
a 4 amp load and 100 milliohms of resistance in the
regulator's sense lead, the regulator's best guess
about bus voltage may be in error by 400 millivolts
or more. Worse yet, as the regulator INCREASES
field current in an attempt to raise bus voltage,
part of the true increase is masked by an INCREASED
LOSS of voltage along the sense lead due to field
current. This causes the regulator to lag behind
reality and in extreme cases, induces a bus voltage
chasing mode with symptoms much as you have described.
TWO FIXES:
(1) change the regulator out for one that has
voltage sense leads that are independent of the
field supply current. This has to be done by
at least a 337 effort and at worst, an STC.
(2) do a total refurbishment of all items in
the field supply pathway starting with the
breaker and carrying it all the way to the
regulator. This includes all connectors, switches,
ov relays, etc., etc.
Many owners have reported that replacing the
master switch fixed the problem. In fact, changing
one of many parts contributing to the problem
reduced the resistance enough to make the system
stable again. However, the problem will return
in spite of a reasonably good master switch
because the switch and all the rest of the components
continue to age - driving total resistance past
the lower limit for stability.
If you replace EVERYTHING, the system should
stay stable for another 20 years or so. This problem
is worst in older airplanes and is a function of
age. Total refurbishment brings the resistance
back down to factory-new levels.
Let me know how this works out for you.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------
( "Imagination is more important than knowledge. )
( It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal )
( education" Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Just thought that I would update you on this problem. We did change
some of the wiring between the electrical bus and the voltage regulator
with no success. My mechanic bypassed the alternator circuit breaker
and the meter stood still. We replaced the circuit breaker today and,
for now, the problem has stopped. Thanks for all you insight in this matter.
Warren
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: bolted joints |
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bolted Joints
The Aeroelectric Connection talks a lot about minimizing the number of
bolted joints because of their resistance. Is there some kind of
conductivity improving goose grease that can be used to improve the few
bolted joints that have to be used? Maybe something that fills up the
voids between the surfaces.
****************************************************************************
*******************
Two types of compounds are in general use for industrial electrical
installations. One contains a metal powder, usually zinc, like Burndy
Penetrox or Ideal NoAlOx. The other does not contain any grit; it is just a
hydrocarbon compound, a waxy grease, like Sanchem NO-OX-ID special A. The
powder containing types were designed for Aluminum (Al) to Al or Al to
Copper (CU) connections. Regardless of what they say on the can, the zinc
powder types are not recommended for CU to CU.
If the can says it is for Al - AL or Al - CU, it likely contains zinc. I do
not recommend.
Sanchem NO-OX-ID "A-SPECIAL" electrical grade
http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html
<http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html> is excellent stuff, but it is not
readily available in local stores. It can be purchased from the
manufacturer. They make several grades. Definitely buy the "A-Special"
Tel: 1-800-621-1603 Out of State: 1-312-733-6111 Fax: 1-312-733-7432
Price: $11/16oz can or $8.80/8oz tube (plus shipping) Minimum order - $35
ILLSCO makes DE-OX which is available in some industrial electrical stores.
One out of three here has it in stock. The Illsco website does not say
anything about metallic powder additives. The MSDS only lists the
hydrocarbon, no other chemicals. So it may not have anything in it. I sent
an email to Illsco asking if it had metallic powder additives. If they
answer, I'll post update. If your supplier has it, I would open the can and
see if the grease feels gritty. If it does, I do not recommend.
According to the Burndy website, Penetrox contains suspended copper
particles http://12.30.8.35/scripts/searchpse.exe
<http://12.30.8.35/scripts/searchpse.exe> copper powder now. It used to
contain zinc powder. If I could not get anything else, I would use a new
stock can of Penetrox, as long as I could tell it did not have any zinc.
The US Bureau of Reclamation has some excellent recommendations for making
up bolted connections.
http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3~3/3~3_4.htm
<http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3~3/3~3_6.htm>
6.3. COPPER-TO-COPPER OR BRONZE-TO-BRONZE CONNECTIONS (Tinned or Untinned).
-
6.3.1. Clean the contact surfaces immediately prior to making the connection
to remove dirt deposits and any old joint compound.
a. Prepare tinned contact surfaces by rubbing with fine steel wool.
b. Prepare untinned contact surfaces by cleaning to bright metal with emery
cloth. Remove nicks and ridges by filing. Wipe off all copper particles.
6.3.2. Coat the contact surfaces with a "nongrit" joint compound such as
NO-OX-ID "A-Special." Use of Pentrox "A" or Alnox which contain the embedded
zinc particles will cause a poorer connection due to the lower conductivity
of zinc.
6.3.3. Do not abrade the copper contact surfaces through the joint compound,
as this will roughen the contact surface and damage plated surfaces. Smooth
surfaces have much higher incidences of microscopic point-to-point contacts,
and thus exhibit much lower contact resistances.
6.3.4. Bolt the bus connection as described in section 6.1.5.
6.1. ALUMINUM-TO-ALUMINUM BUS.-
6.1.1. Clean contact surfaces immediately prior to making connections. Use a
rag or emery cloth to remove direct, black deposits, and any old joint
compound.
6.1-2. Completely coat the contact surfaces with a liberal amount of Pentrox
"A" or Alnox joint compound.
6.1.3. Abrade the contact surfaces through the joint compound with a wire
brush. Aluminum oxide forms immediately upon exposure; therefore, do not
remove joint compound during brushing.
6.1.4. Add more joint compound to contact surfaces and prepare to make the
connection.
6.1.5. Bolted bus connection:
a. Lubricate bolts with a nongrit joint compound (NO-OX-ID or Alcoa No. 2
EJC).
b. Torque all bolts in accordance with manufacturer's instructions or, in
the absence of these, in accordance with table 4 in section 6.5.
c. Remove excess joint compound but leave a bead around joint to prevent
entrance of moisture and dirt.
Carl (Glastar - nowhere near the electrical)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Bob
Regarding figure Z-4 The switch that is the cross feed switch in the
on position is the starter switch in the momentary on position? Is
that correct? I found a 2TP201-5 micro switch. Is this the one you
were talking about?
Jim Robinson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
I'm thinking that shiny-new, metal-to-metal contacts are optimal for
conductivity.
Will a metal-grit or some such compound improve upon that? I admit to
never having seen these products but it sounds as if they are more
suited for production work or industrial field-repairs rather than
the squeaky-clean joints we build.
Also, once the joint has been tightened I like the idea of
paralketone for the environmental seal - the stuff is cheap, easy to
work with and lasts a long time. What is the downside to this?
Bill
RANS S-7 in progress
>
>listers,
>The Aeroelectric Connection talks a lot about minimizing the number of
>bolted joints because of their resistance. Is there some kind of
>conductivity improving goose grease that can be used to improve the few
>bolted joints that have to be used? Maybe something that fills up the
>voids between the surfaces.
>The stuff used on power transistors is what got me thinking along this
>line but that is for improving -thermal- conductivity and is an
>insulator
>regards and TIA
>Jim Bean
>RV-8 installing battery in back.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Miles McCallum <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Bolted Joints |
I've used ACF-50 for quite a while now - dabbed a bit on with a small
paintbrush so that it wicks into any gaps - in fact, having just dragged
my Armstrong out (560cc trailbike) and given it a service in the hope of
summer actually arriving, it was showing symptoms of a poor main ground,
and a splash of ACF sorted it instantly...
apart from being rather expensive, I use it everywhere - inside
structural tubes or control rods, over engine components that tend to go
rusty - I've even heard of (salt water) seaplane operators with severe
radio problems dunking their boxes in it ovenight, leaving it to drain
for a few days, and then having no problems for the rest of the year!
Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>
>Bob
>
>Regarding figure Z-4 The switch that is the cross feed switch in the
>on position is the starter switch in the momentary on position? Is
>that correct? I found a 2TP201-5 micro switch. Is this the one you
>were talking about?
>
>Jim Robinson
Yes . . . . good job on your netresearch . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaker hookup question |
>
>>
>>
>> Do you ever fly without headsets where you would WANT
>> to try to hear and understand somebody talking to you
>> over the speaker?
>
>Probably not. Just wanted to listen to ATIS through the speaker before I
>started up the engine.
Okay, for engine-off, ground ops the requirement for lots
of audio power goes away as does concerns for your ears.
Check out Radio Shack's 277-1008 speaker/amplifier module.
This device has an internal battery -AND- a power jack
for external power. You could adapt it as-is to the
task or take the internal etched circuit board out and
mount it in a more convenient manner to drive your existing
speaker. It sells for about $12.00
There are some other, perhaps more capable products out
there in the way of speaker amplifiers . . . I'll keep an
eye open for them and post the data here as I encounter
such products.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <Emrath(at)home.com> |
| Subject: | Prestolite Alternator & voltage regulator |
I am building a RV6A and have purchased a 0-360 from another project that
didn't work out. Engine had only 50 hours since new. With the engine came a
24V Prestolite Alternator Part number ALU8421. The external regulator is a
Transpo D591S 24V-025 Adjustible. Can anyone advise me how may amps this
set up is good for.
Marty in Brentwood TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spike Catcher Diodes - A case history |
Bob
I'm having a problem with my new electrical system
installation that perhaps you'll help me with -
at my level of knowledge I'm not even sure what
the appropriate trouble shooting steps would be.
I've installed your ovm and relay. I have a
Rotax engine with PM alternator that does
about 13 amps. I have been testing the electrical
system and it appears to work ok - strobes flash,
fans run, starter turns engine, etc... however
Here's the problem
When I run the starter and release the key the
alternator breaker pops. So long as I hold the
key in the start position everything is fine.
I can reset the breaker a couple of times without
turning the master off/on but eventually the master
switch has to be cycled to allow setting the breaker.
I have the master wired per your diagrams so that
it operates the battery contactor and the alternator
control relay simultaneously. I have a warning light
as per your diagram to show when the breaker trips
the relay has disconnected the alternator from the
power bus).
Please reveal the answer to this puzzle, if possible.
If not, please suggest a diagnostic approach that will
lead to the answer.
Bill
Bill,
How old is your ovm? Does it have red/black or
yellow/black wires? If red/black it may be suffering
from a rare but pesky nuisance tripping problem. If you'd
like to send it to me, I'll update it at no charge and
return it to you. If it's the later version (yel/blk)
I may need to see it anyhow. Something may be wrong with it.
(The OV module in question was returned for evaluation.
It was performing to specifications, however the
device was updated to a newer configuration and
returned to service. - Unfortunately, the upgrade
did not fix the problem. Subsequent conversation
revealed that the airplane was wired per AeroElectric
Connection drawings EXCEPT . . . on advice of Rotax
the spike catcher diode was left off of the ACS
OFF-L-R-Both-Start keyswitch. In point of fact,
had the diode been included per ACS recommendations,
the system would probably have demonstrated the same
problem. I recommended that a diode be added across
the starter contactor's coil per drawings in the book
whereupon we received the following e-mail:)
Bob
I installed a diode on the starter contactor (actually
it's the one that came with the ACS switch (I had not
installed it because Rotax said the Clum contactor
didn't need one)) and the ovm tripping problem is
now history.
Whew!! I'm not sure I understand how ovm tripping and
the starter diode fit together; perhaps you could
enlighten me.
Regards.
Bill
Good news to hear my friend. The answer is simple. Starter
contactors (because of their intermittent duty, heavy current
draw) are significant sources of inductive kick during a
de-energizing operation. We supply diodes on ALL of the
contactor we sell . . . either added on (as in the case of
our S701-1 and -2 continuous duty contactors) or built in
like the S702-1 starter contactor).
The ACS starter switch had an official government AD published
against it a few years back that required rebuilding the
switch's starter control contacts -AND- adding a diode
at the switch. Problem was, the way the diode was wired into
the circuit, it has ZERO effectiveness in catching the
starter contactor's spike.
The diode needs to go across the coil of the contactor
just as you've accomplished on your airplane.
With out the diode, there is no place for the spike
to go but across the starter switch terminals and some
portion of it winds up propagating out into the system.
It's not much of a hazard to other equipment but it can
nuisance trip SCR crowbar OV modules. We had a problem
with a similar circuit on the A-36 Bonanza a few weeks
ago . . . this is what prompted the modification to my
design . . . HOWEVER, if the offending spike is big
enough (as was yours) . . . there's no practical way
to make my crowbar ignore it. This leaves only one
solution . . . snub it off at the source . . which
is what we've done.
Rotax should be made aware of the quality of their advice.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John W. Tarabocchia" <zodiac.builder(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | B&C LR3B-14 Regulator...? |
I installed the B&C (LR3B-14) regulator in my project. The motor hasn't
been started yet. The regulator low voltage light would flash after it was
installed, when I turned the electrical system on. I believe this is what
it was supposed to do. Telling me that there is a low voltage situation.
This was verified by the volt meter. The bus voltage was was in the area of
12v to 12.5 volts. I installed the regulator 2 months ago. Nothing has
change sinse then, as far as the electrical system is concerned. The other
day I noticed that the light would no longer flash. Now it just stays lit,
even if I bring the bus voltage up to over 13 volts. Question is, does
anyone think the unit has just gone faulty, ( would be my luck) or is there
something I'm missing. The trouble shooting chart that comes with the unit
doen't help me at all.
Thanks for any ideas in advance....
John W. Tarabocchia
601hds N6042T Web Site: http://hometown.aol.com/zodiacbuilder/Home.html
Airframe 100% Complete...
Tearing Down 0-200...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch... |
Hi Norman: I am going to use VAN's standard key switch on the panel. I will
then use a SPDT or a DPDT switch (which ever one is requires) that will allow
me to choose the key switch for start or REMOTE START which will be a push
button on the control stick. I am using the Infinity Grips and will use the
right hand thumb switch for remote starting. That way I can keep the right
hand on the stick and hold the stick back (RV-8) while I start the engine.
Once the engine is started, simply flip the toggle switch back to the Key Sw.
position and you will have no problem of hitting the pushbutton and engaging
the starter while flying.
Howard
Mooresville NC
1/2 of an RV-8 project 80188
Working on the Canopy and panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Prestolite Alternator & voltage |
regulator
>
>I am building a RV6A and have purchased a 0-360 from another project that
>didn't work out. Engine had only 50 hours since new. With the engine came a
>24V Prestolite Alternator Part number ALU8421. The external regulator is a
>Transpo D591S 24V-025 Adjustible. Can anyone advise me how may amps this
>set up is good for.
>Marty in Brentwood TN
Probably something on the order of 50-60 amps . . . certainly
PLENTY in a 24V system. Are you planning on staying 24 volts?
You can save about 15 pounds of engine accessories installation
and upgrade the overall service life of your electrical system
components by changing the existing stuff out in favor of
more modern, light weight 14V accessories.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C LR3B-14 Regulator...? |
>
>I installed the B&C (LR3B-14) regulator in my project. The motor hasn't
>been started yet. The regulator low voltage light would flash after it was
>installed, when I turned the electrical system on. I believe this is what
>it was supposed to do. Telling me that there is a low voltage situation.
>This was verified by the volt meter. The bus voltage was was in the area of
>12v to 12.5 volts. I installed the regulator 2 months ago. Nothing has
>change sinse then, as far as the electrical system is concerned. The other
>day I noticed that the light would no longer flash. Now it just stays lit,
>even if I bring the bus voltage up to over 13 volts. Question is, does
>anyone think the unit has just gone faulty, ( would be my luck) or is there
>something I'm missing. The trouble shooting chart that comes with the unit
>doen't help me at all.
I think the regulator has suffered an internal
failure. I'd like for you to contact B&C at
1.316.283.8000 and arrange to return it to them
for a look-see. Also, let me know when you mail
it back . . . I'd like to touch base with them
to understand what's going on with it.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch... |
>
>I'm trying to go with the theory of no single point failures but I still
>want a key switch.
>
>Can I have the regular key switch on my panel (I have bought the
>conventional one fron Van) and duplicate all the functions with hidden
>switches?
Not sure what the problem is here. If you have a key switch
installed and wired up, I don't see any value in adding more
switches . . . my primary objection to key switches are:
(1) expensive compared to alternatives.
(2) big . . . they take up room on panel and don't really
look like they're part of the rest of the airplane's electrical
system controls.
(3) no protection from theft . . . anyone who understands
how they work will not be deterred in the slightest
for getting the airplane running AFTER they've gained
access to the cockpit.
(4) about half the time, I find that the keys are still
in my pocket after I get belted in . . . keys are
a pain in the whatsit.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Start key vs. switch... |
>
>Hi Norman: I am going to use VAN's standard key switch on the panel. I will
>then use a SPDT or a DPDT switch (which ever one is requires) that will allow
>me to choose the key switch for start or REMOTE START which will be a push
>button on the control stick. I am using the Infinity Grips and will use the
>right hand thumb switch for remote starting. That way I can keep the right
>hand on the stick and hold the stick back (RV-8) while I start the engine.
>Once the engine is started, simply flip the toggle switch back to the Key Sw.
>position and you will have no problem of hitting the pushbutton and engaging
>the starter while flying.
Why not simply wire them in parallel with each other and
eliminate the remote start select switch . . . or better yet,
wire up the starter to the stick grip and just ignore the
starter contacts on the key-switch.
However, if you're going to plan on an air-start capability
(with very limited usefulness and much potential for hazard
to hardware) then I'd recommend removing the key-switch entirely
and using toggle switches wired to disable the starter any
time the right mag is on.
I've never flown an airplane yet where the prop doesn't continue
to windmill at normal flying speeds. If you're loosing power
pump, then simply restoring fuel flow gets the engine back.
If you think there's real risk of a prop stopping in flight,
then there is risk of kickback by having the right mag enabled
during cranking with a starter. Placing the right mags TOGGLE
switch in the OFF position to enable the starter negates the risk.
If you're going to full electronic ignition, then you need
two toggle switches anyhow and it doesn't matter if both
ignitions are on during cranking . . . so the key switch
becomes even less useful . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William B. Swears" <wswears(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | electrical system voltage |
Bob,
You wrote:
> Probably something on the order of 50-60 amps . . . certainly
> PLENTY in a 24V system. Are you planning on staying 24 volts?
> You can save about 15 pounds of engine accessories installation
> and upgrade the overall service life of your electrical system
> components by changing the existing stuff out in favor of
> more modern, light weight 14V accessories.
I'm discovering that my Cozy has a lot of small and not so small electrical system
problems. I
think I need to rebuild my electrical system, if not for safety, at least so I
more fully
understand the system and can chase out the age related bugs.
Everybody keeps talking about the wire size for the 28 volt vs 14 volt systems,
and the weight
savings in using the higher voltage. I also notice the Garmin 430 and 530 came
out initially in
28 volts only, although they are now available in 14 volt models.
So, my question to you is: If you were starting an electrical system for a compact
light plane,
and expected to be installing an IFR avionics suite, what voltage would you select?
P.S. I'm going to be flying my Cozy in Alaska again, eventually, and one of the
better answers for
cabin heat appears to be an electric heater in the nose. But the 14 volt electric
heater really
doesn't do the job, and draws huge amperage. I'm told the 28 volt version would
be much more
comfortable, and draw less amps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch... |
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch...
Send reply to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> >
> >
> >I'm trying to go with the theory of no single point failures but I still
> >want a key switch.
> >
> >Can I have the regular key switch on my panel (I have bought the
> >conventional one fron Van) and duplicate all the functions with hidden
> >switches?
>
> Not sure what the problem is here. If you have a key switch
> installed and wired up, I don't see any value in adding more
> switches . . . my primary objection to key switches are:
>
> (1) expensive compared to alternatives.
>
> (2) big . . . they take up room on panel and don't really
> look like they're part of the rest of the airplane's electrical
> system controls.
>
> (3) no protection from theft . . . anyone who understands
> how they work will not be deterred in the slightest
> for getting the airplane running AFTER they've gained
> access to the cockpit.
>
> (4) about half the time, I find that the keys are still
> in my pocket after I get belted in . . . keys are
> a pain in the whatsit.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob
To follow this thread a step further do you have any thoughts on
ways to secure the airplane. I don't intend to use a key start
switch, but would like some way to disable the airplane and at
least make it more time consuming to try and steal it. What about
some kind of remote switch like use on car doors etc.?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electrical system voltage |
>
>Bob,
>You wrote:
>
>> Probably something on the order of 50-60 amps . . . certainly
>> PLENTY in a 24V system. Are you planning on staying 24 volts?
>> You can save about 15 pounds of engine accessories installation
>> and upgrade the overall service life of your electrical system
>> components by changing the existing stuff out in favor of
>> more modern, light weight 14V accessories.
>
>I'm discovering that my Cozy has a lot of small and not so small electrical system
problems. I
>think I need to rebuild my electrical system, if not for safety, at least so I
more fully
>understand the system and can chase out the age related bugs.
Good idea . . .
>Everybody keeps talking about the wire size for the 28 volt vs 14 volt systems,
and the weight
>savings in using the higher voltage. I also notice the Garmin 430 and 530 came
out initially in
>28 volts only, although they are now available in 14 volt models.
Wire size argument is totally bogus for anything less
than a B17 or similar aircraft where you have lots of
taxpayer dollars to buy anything you wish and taking
hundreds of pounds of wire weight out lets you carry
that much more fuel and/or bombs.
For us folk who have to pay our own way the couple
of pounds you save in a small airplane comes at the cost
of excluding all automotive (14V) hardware in favor of
all aircraft (28v) hardware for many more dollars.
>So, my question to you is: If you were starting an electrical system for a compact
light plane,
>and expected to be installing an IFR avionics suite, what voltage would you select?
14V . . . in a heartbeat.
>P.S. I'm going to be flying my Cozy in Alaska again, eventually, and one of the
better answers for
>cabin heat appears to be an electric heater in the nose. But the 14 volt electric
heater really
>doesn't do the job, and draws huge amperage. I'm told the 28 volt version would
be much more
>comfortable, and draw less amps.
Watts is watts is watts . . . heat output is watts. Watts
are volts times amps. So, a 14v 10A heater that puts out
140 watts of heat is half as effective as a 28V 10A heater
that puts out 280 watts.
If you need electric heat, then stay with the 28V system
and take the hit for cost of other accessories. Your
all-up electrical loads can be as low as 10-15 amps
to run the airplane . . . this may leave you as much
as 40-50 amps of snort left over to run heaters . . .
which will STILL fall short of the BTU's of heat available
from an exhaust heater muff . . . but 40 amps times
28V gives you 1120 watts of heat . . . about the
same as a hefty hair dryer and a whole lot more
effective than NO heat.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electrical system voltage |
Or put a modern water cooled engine in tha modern plane...Heh Heh
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >You wrote:
> >
> >> Probably something on the order of 50-60 amps . . . certainly
> >> PLENTY in a 24V system. Are you planning on staying 24 volts?
> >> You can save about 15 pounds of engine accessories installation
> >> and upgrade the overall service life of your electrical system
> >> components by changing the existing stuff out in favor of
> >> more modern, light weight 14V accessories.
> >
> >I'm discovering that my Cozy has a lot of small and not so small electrical
system problems. I
> >think I need to rebuild my electrical system, if not for safety, at least so
I more fully
> >understand the system and can chase out the age related bugs.
> Good idea . . .
>
> >Everybody keeps talking about the wire size for the 28 volt vs 14 volt systems,
and the weight
> >savings in using the higher voltage. I also notice the Garmin 430 and 530 came
out initially in
> >28 volts only, although they are now available in 14 volt models.
>
> Wire size argument is totally bogus for anything less
> than a B17 or similar aircraft where you have lots of
> taxpayer dollars to buy anything you wish and taking
> hundreds of pounds of wire weight out lets you carry
> that much more fuel and/or bombs.
>
> For us folk who have to pay our own way the couple
> of pounds you save in a small airplane comes at the cost
> of excluding all automotive (14V) hardware in favor of
> all aircraft (28v) hardware for many more dollars.
>
> >So, my question to you is: If you were starting an electrical system for a compact
light plane,
> >and expected to be installing an IFR avionics suite, what voltage would you
select?
>
> 14V . . . in a heartbeat.
>
> >P.S. I'm going to be flying my Cozy in Alaska again, eventually, and one of
the better answers for
> >cabin heat appears to be an electric heater in the nose. But the 14 volt electric
heater really
> >doesn't do the job, and draws huge amperage. I'm told the 28 volt version would
be much more
> >comfortable, and draw less amps.
> Watts is watts is watts . . . heat output is watts. Watts
> are volts times amps. So, a 14v 10A heater that puts out
> 140 watts of heat is half as effective as a 28V 10A heater
> that puts out 280 watts.
>
> If you need electric heat, then stay with the 28V system
> and take the hit for cost of other accessories. Your
> all-up electrical loads can be as low as 10-15 amps
> to run the airplane . . . this may leave you as much
> as 40-50 amps of snort left over to run heaters . . .
> which will STILL fall short of the BTU's of heat available
> from an exhaust heater muff . . . but 40 amps times
> 28V gives you 1120 watts of heat . . . about the
> same as a hefty hair dryer and a whole lot more
> effective than NO heat.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------
> ( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
> ( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
> ( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vaso(at)Bovan.com" <vaso(at)bovan.com> |
| Subject: | Crimpers, Wirestrippers - Best ? |
Light Plane Maintenance magazine did a survey of crimpers and wirestrippers
in its Feb 2000 edition. Among ratcheting crimpers with switchable die sets,
LPM favored the Ideal Crimpmaster, with AMP and Paladin also mentioned. Are
there other equally good or better crimpers (except for expensive Mil-Spec
tools) ? Among cheap non-ratchet crimpers, LPM found one and only one good
crimper - the AMP Super Champ. LPM made a found of saying the market was
flooded with no-name junk crimpers.
Among wire strippers, LPM found the Buchanan Ultra Stripper to be the best.
However, I can't find this wirestripper anyplace. Is there another hand-held
non MIL-Spec wirestripper just as good - or better ?
-Vaso Bovan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a 14 volt alternator to produce 28 volts |
was Prestolite Alternator & voltage regulator
> >I am building a RV6A and have purchased a 0-360 from another project that
> >didn't work out. Engine had only 50 hours since new. With the engine came a
> >24V Prestolite Alternator Part number ALU8421. The external regulator is a
> >Transpo D591S 24V-025 Adjustible. Can anyone advise me how may amps this
> >set up is good for.
> >Marty in Brentwood TN
>
> Probably something on the order of 50-60 amps . . . certainly
> PLENTY in a 24V system. Are you planning on staying 24 volts?
> You can save about 15 pounds of engine accessories installation
> and upgrade the overall service life of your electrical system
> components by changing the existing stuff out in favor of
> more modern, light weight 14V accessories.
Bob,
I have recently been considering using a 24 volt system. This would allow more
power for heated
seats and/or heated vests. My RMI Micromonitor and MicroEncoder will support voltages
from 10-30,
so there is no problem there. The higher voltage would also allow me to use smaller
battery
cables. I'm building an RV-8A with the rear battery location. (Battery is located
in the rear
baggage compartment)
Can the small Nippon Denso 14 volt alternators (using a 28 volt regulator) sold
by Van's & B&C be
safely used in a 24 volt system? Would I be better off to look for a small ND
alternator that is
native 24 volts?
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Start key vs. switch... |
Bob
To follow this thread a step further do you have any thoughts on
ways to secure the airplane. I don't intend to use a key start
switch, but would like some way to disable the airplane and at
least make it more time consuming to try and steal it. What about
some kind of remote switch like use on car doors etc.?
Jim
When I owned the airport, there was a J-3 in our rental
fleet that had no door locks and toggle switch mags.
The airplane was housed in open pole barn facilities
an vulnerable to theft.
The BEST way to secure this kind (or any other kind)
of aircraft is with a piece of hardened chain (covered
with leather or plastic sleeve to avoid scratching)
wrapped around the propeller blades and secured with
a really good lock. The whole rig cost me less than
$25 and I can guarantee you that nobody wants to try
and fly an airplane with that kind of "unbalance"
in the prop.
It's so obvious just walking up to the airplane that
a potential thief won't even bother to wreck your doors
to get inside . . . unless it's radios he wants. Can't
help you much with that issue other than to use radios
that install in trays, dismount with an allen wrench,
and you can take them with you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Master Contactor Wiring? |
>Most, if not all, aircraft electrical systems put the starter (and its solenoid)
>in series with the master solenoid. The master solenoid is required to
>carry a huge load that is otherwise far beyond its need and, in addition,
>becomes just another voltage drop on the way to the starter. Why is it done this
way?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Glenn Giere
The contactor most likely to stick is the starter contactor.
Running the starter current through a battery master contactor
or switch gives you a way to shut things down if the starter
contactor DOES stick. Further, the idea of a battery master is
to disconnect ALL major current carrying pathways in an
airplane. Items we wire to an always hot battery bus are
generally loads of 5A or less (which I like to protect with
VERY fast fuses).
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Using a 14 volt alternator to produce 28 volts |
>
>Bob,
> I have recently been considering using a 24 volt system. This would allow more
power for heated
>seats and/or heated vests. My RMI Micromonitor and MicroEncoder will support voltages
from 10-30,
>so there is no problem there. The higher voltage would also allow me to use smaller
battery
>cables. I'm building an RV-8A with the rear battery location. (Battery is located
in the rear
>baggage compartment)
> Can the small Nippon Denso 14 volt alternators (using a 28 volt regulator) sold
by Van's & B&C be
>safely used in a 24 volt system? Would I be better off to look for a small ND
alternator that is
>native 24 volts?
>Charlie Kuss
B&C's 28V alternators are actually 14V machines with a
VERY SPECIAL regulator. You can go that route if you choose.
Otherwise, you'll have to find a suitable alternator designed
to produce 28V with an ordinary regulator. I am aware of no
lightweight, modern products that I can recommend.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Crimpers, Wirestrippers - Best ? |
>
>Light Plane Maintenance magazine did a survey of crimpers and wirestrippers
>in its Feb 2000 edition. Among ratcheting crimpers with switchable die sets,
>LPM favored the Ideal Crimpmaster, with AMP and Paladin also mentioned. Are
>there other equally good or better crimpers (except for expensive Mil-Spec
>tools) ? Among cheap non-ratchet crimpers, LPM found one and only one good
>crimper - the AMP Super Champ. LPM made a found of saying the market was
>flooded with no-name junk crimpers.
I've sold a $40 3-pocket PIDG tool for about 5 years which you
can view at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-1
and order from B&C at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
This tool is most satisfactory for the installation of insulated
terminals with aviation style wire grips as well as the automotive
all-plastic terminals (for use on your lawnmower).
>Among wire strippers, LPM found the Buchanan Ultra Stripper to be the best.
>However, I can't find this wirestripper anyplace. Is there another hand-held
>non MIL-Spec wirestripper just as good - or better ?
My personal favorite is made by Ideal Industries and sold by
Allied and Newark Ideal's p/n is 45-187. Unfortunately,
I'm aware of no low cost equals to this fine tool. They're
about $160. See:
http://search.newark.com/part_detail.phtml?PART%5FID=250&VID=250&10005=58F551
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------
( "Teaching should be such that what is offered )
( is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a )
( hard duty ." Albert Einstein )
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electrical system voltage |
>
>Or put a modern water cooled engine in tha modern plane...Heh Heh
April 03, 2001 - April 30, 2001
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ad