AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ap

February 14, 2002 - February 27, 2002



      
         Oh, I understand.  You were asking whether or not the control
         lead (little wire) going into the back of the alternator had
         absolute control over a runaway alternator. The answer in most
         cases is no.  What we're looking for in ov protection is
         an absolute means for shutting off field current no mater what
         else may have failed.
      
         The control lead going into the back of modern alternators
         is designed to interface with the car's systems management
         computer . . . when everything is working, it is capable of
         commanding the alternator OFF and ON.  However, in every
         case where I've been privy to the schematic for the regulator,
         there were failure modes internal to the alternator which
         bypass the control lead . . .
      
         Externally regulated alternators get their field current from
         the field breaker circuit. Opening the the field breaker
         shuts that flame-throwing hummer right down. Internally
         regulated alternators need the extra contactor to physically
         disconnect the b-lead from the ship's system.
      
         Bob . . .
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker substitution
> >Bob, > >Just wondered what your thoughts are on substituting 7.5 amp breakers >for the 5 amp field breakers for the main and SD8 alternators since I >already have a couple of 7.5 breakers on hand. > >Dave Ford I've not tested the our crowbar ov modules with the larger breaker. When one of these gizmos triggers, the current flowing in the crowbar module can exceed 300 amps for the milliseconds that it takes to open the breaker. The time constant for a 7.5A breaker will be longer than for 5A . . . Having said that, know that we tested our crowbar circuits with a series of repetitive trip cycles. I suspect that in a real ov situation needing a single trip cycle, the critters will be okay. The risk is that should the ov module be overloaded, it becomes a permanent short instead of a transient short. The risk is to the ov module and not to the system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: LEDs for nav lights
I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything. Here is a link to an automotive adaptation that looks interesting: <http://www.datasheets.led.net/Pages/15mm_auto_bayonet/137a.htm It doesn't appear that they make a green one though... I found an faa site that seemed to describe a typical output pattern for a position light. Is it required that all position lights fit that pattern? Whelan is working on LED nav lights that the FAA would bless. They have a TSO'd white fixture now but I think it's only available in 28v and the price of these things would give you sticker-shock. Also, it seems that LEDs may not measure as brightly (lumens of output) as incandescents, but my impression is that since they radiate at a specific frequency they are more "visible." This is one place where the feds have pushed a certified aircraft requirement off on amateur built aircraft. I belive nav and anti collision lighting for night operations have to be "approved" . . . I did have a builder a few years ago do his own fixtures and strobe system and he took measurements with a light-meter to show that the output from his system exceeded that of the approved systems. He had all the data in hand when the inspector came out to look over the airplane . . . but he never asked about it and the builder didn't offer. One more question: I have a canard pusher. Is it necessary that I put the position lights on the wing tips, or can they be mounted on the canard? The canard span is about 8.5". The wire run to the canard would be shorter. I think the inspector would pick up on this . . . the goal in the certified world is to get them spaced as far apart as possible on the airframe. . . . now, having said that, go figure how it's legal and PRACTICAL to combine a white light in the aft end of a single fixture with a wing tip light . . . by the time you get close enough to visually resolve the two lights into separate entities, you're too close for the nav lights to have much practical use in the classic sense. In my not so humble opinion, nav lights are practically useless anyhow . . . I'd MUCH rather use the energy burned up by nav lights to drive strobes. If any kind of lighting is going to help someone see and avoid you, it's got to be strobes or wig-wags. By the way, I recently purchased a copy of the 'connection, and I am finding it to be a great read! It answers the vast majority of the questions I have had about aircraft wiring. I'm pleased that you find the work useful! It's been a real education for me too. I've learned more about putting little airplanes together by working with the amateur built community than I ever did working on spam cans. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Adkins" <ccadkins(at)dragg.net>
Subject: Diehl accessory case mounted alternator...
Date: Feb 14, 2002
Bob et. al., Do you recommend using a generic Ford regulator with the 20A alternator that comes standard in most VW conversions using the Diehl Accessory Case mounting system? The "standard" part looks like a heat sink with possible some diodes epoxied to the back side. I'm just curious what your thinking is here. I've read, re-read, and re-re-read the Aero-Electric Connection Book (Great work, BTW), and I'm starting to have several seemingly silly questions, so please be patient!!! Chris Adkins Q2, T-IV VW ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Battery Buss(es)
From: "nknobil(at)gwi.net" <nknobil(at)gwi.net>
Date: Feb 14, 2002
Dear Listers, While the notion of a battery buss, or in my case, dual battery busses is a fine way of having non-switchable power to some devices, does anyone have any thoughts about this (simpler) idea? I'm thinking of simply hardwiring my electronic ignitions to the hot side of their respective battery contactors, with circuit protection provided by fusible links. In the words of E.B. "Lower parts count = higher reliability". What say you folks out there? Nick Knobil RV 8 N80549 Bowdoinham, Maine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: program
>Bob, Could you please steer me to where I might find the schematic for a dual alternator, dual battery schematic? I have searched but have been unable to find it. I believe it is on page Z-14 of your book. Thanks, Mark Steitle > > This is an older version of IntelliCAD which used > > to be available from their website at no cost by simply > > registering. This program will open and edit the > > drawing files which are also downloadable from my > > website at: > > > > http://209.134.106.21/articles/seminar.exe > > > > and > > > > http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe > > > > The drawings you'll find in these files will > > probably represent 80-90% of the work necessary > > to do your own page-per-system wirebook. You > > can pick and chose from the various pages > > to assemble a document that is easily modified > > to match what you want do do. > > want to do. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Diehl accessory case mounted
alternator... > >Bob et. al., >Do you recommend using a generic Ford regulator with the 20A alternator that >comes standard in most VW conversions using the Diehl Accessory Case >mounting system? > >The "standard" part looks like a heat sink with possible some diodes epoxied >to the back side. > >I'm just curious what your thinking is here. I've read, re-read, and >re-re-read the Aero-Electric Connection Book (Great work, BTW), and I'm >starting to have several seemingly silly questions, so please be patient!!! I think the Diehl case mounts a permanent magnet altenrnator like the Rotax. The regulator for this type of alternator is a combination rectifier and regulator and very different from the devices used with automotive style alternators. I don't know what regulator Diehl recommends. I suspect a Rotax (the big one for the 912/914) would work. A company called Key West is reputed to offer a more rugged replacement for the Rotax part. I think this may be a marine product for outboards with PM alternators. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: program
> > > > >Bob, >Could you please steer me to where I might find the schematic for a dual >alternator, dual battery schematic? I have searched but have been unable >to find it. I believe it is on page Z-14 of your book. >Thanks, >Mark Steitle Figure Z-4 in the older books, Figure Z-14 in the later drawings which you can download at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LEDs for nav lights
>I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible >use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small >b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have >a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive >on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything. > >Here is a link to an automotive adaptation that looks interesting: > ><http://www.datasheets.led.net/Pages/15mm_auto_bayonet/137a.htm > >It doesn't appear that they make a green one though... I think in the UK there are some green traffic lights that use LEDs so it should be possible. Graham ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Danny L. Smith" <dsmit132(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: program
Date: Feb 14, 2002
Hi Gary, I downloaded the TurboCad program and it looks good. Where do you get the symbols files for electrical wiring, etc.? Danny -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Liming Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: program Just wanted to let the list know that I have been using the freebie TurboCAD with Bob's drawings and it works just fine. They give you the 2D version so that you'll like it and upgrade to the 3D version, but the 2D version is complete and works fine. The program is compatible with AutoCAD and several other formats. They are at http://www.turbocad.com Also, I made up a bunch of full size instrument panel templates that may be printed and cut out and laid on the actual panel for a feel for how they all fit together, if anyone wants them, send me an email. > >I want to do a schematic drawing of my aircraft wiring. Does anyone know of > >a computer program that is used for aircraft wiring or related wiring > >harnesses that will work? > > > Download http://209.134.106.21/CAD/cad.pdf > and http://209.134.106.21/CAD/cad.exe > and http://209.134.106.21/CAD/cad.txt > > This is an older version of IntelliCAD which used > to be available from their website at no cost by simply > registering. This program will open and edit the > drawing files which are also downloadable from my > website at: > > http://209.134.106.21/articles/seminar.exe > > and > > http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe > > The drawings you'll find in these files will > probably represent 80-90% of the work necessary > to do your own page-per-system wirebook. You > can pick and chose from the various pages > to assemble a document that is easily modified > to match what you want do do. > want to do. > > > Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
Subject: Re: LEDs for nav lights
From: James Freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net>
snip >> I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible >> use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small >> b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have >> a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive >> on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything. >> snip I'm also interested in this, and have actually ordered the lights from Ledtronics. I ordered the 30 LED arrays in wide (120 degree viewable) angle in red and green. I y returned them this week b/c they shipped the wrong parts initially but hope to have them in my hands in the next few weeks They claim that a 15 led array is as bright as a 15 watt incandescent bulb, but I am somewhat skeptical. I think what they really mean is that "on axis" the narrow angle leds appear as bright as a bare 15w bulb. Of course the dispersion of the wide angle means that they will appear less bright. I hope that the 30 led array be bright enough, but I'm prepared to double them up if necessary (still no more expensive than "real" aircraft parts). The parts I got were great looking, but had narrow angle leds in them (15-20 degrees). They were discs slightly larger than a quarter and about half an inch thick. They weigh essentially nothing. They are supplied with wire leads about 8" long and have preinstalled resistors for the 12-14 volts of our planes. I just held the leads on the terminals of an old shop battery and they easily put a bright circle of light on the wall 20' away. The green is a little yellowish to my eye but my wife said it was definitely green. They claim 1.2 watts each at 12v and that seems reasonable, although I didn't actually put the meter on them. They generate no heat that I could tell. Because it was a custom order, they made me order 3 of each @45.00(I figure I can sell the surplus easily enough if they work as advertised), I'll post pictures when I get the correct parts ;) The people at Ledtronics are nice enough, but terribly disorganized. To get anything done (like placing an order, or getting an RMA#) requires daily contact for a week or two, I've found that the triple-pronged approach (phone, fax, and e-mail) works best. James Freeman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2002
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: Re: program
> > >Hi Gary, >I downloaded the TurboCad program and it looks good. Where do you get the >symbols files for electrical wiring, etc.? Download wirebook.exe and seminar.exe from Bob's temp website. Bob very graciously provides all the symbols he uses in his drawings in there. Gary Liming ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: LEDs for nav lights
Date: Feb 15, 2002
Hello James, that sounds very interesting, what housing will you put this babies in? Very interested on this stuff Werner ----- Original Message ----- From: James Freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LEDs for nav lights > > snip > >> I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible > >> use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small > >> b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have > >> a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive > >> on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything. > >> snip > > I'm also interested in this, and have actually ordered the lights from > Ledtronics. I ordered the 30 LED arrays in wide (120 degree viewable) > angle in red and green. I y returned them this week b/c they shipped the > wrong parts initially but hope to have them in my hands in the next few > weeks > > They claim that a 15 led array is as bright as a 15 watt incandescent bulb, > but I am somewhat skeptical. I think what they really mean is that "on > axis" the narrow angle leds appear as bright as a bare 15w bulb. Of > course the dispersion of the wide angle means that they will appear less > bright. I hope that the 30 led array be bright enough, but I'm prepared > to double them up if necessary (still no more expensive than "real" > aircraft parts). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
"RV List"
Subject: Ammeter - how useful?
Date: Feb 14, 2002
I realize most of you with your spacious panels don't worry much about this but maybe you can show some compassion for us few unfortunates. Panel space on my RV3 is at a premium and if I was adding a separate voltmeter it's no more space to make it a Volt/Ammeter. However, some engine monitors I'm considering come with a voltmeter, which I see a use for. Is there any compelling reason to try to add an ammeter to an already crowded panel? Thanks in advance, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: program
Bob, What I was hoping for was a file that I could open in TurboCad, similar to those you provided last week. Thanks for all your expert help. Mark Steitle > > > > > > > > > > >Bob, > >Could you please steer me to where I might find the schematic for a dual > >alternator, dual battery schematic? I have searched but have been unable > >to find it. I believe it is on page Z-14 of your book. > >Thanks, > >Mark Steitle > > > Figure Z-4 in the older books, Figure Z-14 in the later > drawings which you can download at: > > http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 02/14/02
Date: Feb 15, 2002
> > This is one place where the feds have pushed a certified aircraft > requirement off on amateur built aircraft. I belive nav and anti > collision lighting for night operations have to be "approved" . . . I'd just like to follow up briefly on this. Before ordering my -6A, I called the local FAA office and asked the inspector about the entire process. He was very helpful. One thing he strongly stressed was that they wanted TSO'd lights. It was the ONLY equipment he even mentioned. If you're thinking of a non-TSO'd system, I'd talk to the local FAA office about it ahead of time. It would be a real bummer to put in a system they refuse to approve. -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Ammeter - how useful?
Date: Feb 15, 2002
A voltmeter would be enough to satisfy me. David Swartzendruber Wichita > > I realize most of you with your spacious panels don't worry > much about this but maybe you can show some compassion for us > few unfortunates. > Panel space on my RV3 is at a premium and if I was adding a > separate voltmeter it's no more space to make it a > Volt/Ammeter. However, some engine monitors I'm considering > come with a voltmeter, which I see a use for. Is there any > compelling reason to try to add an ammeter to an already > crowded panel? > > Thanks in advance, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: RE: Ammeter - how useful?
> > >A voltmeter would be enough to satisfy me. > >David Swartzendruber >Wichita > > > However, some engine monitors I'm considering > > come with a voltmeter, which I see a use for. Is there any > > compelling reason to try to add an ammeter to an already > > crowded panel? > > > > Thanks in advance, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID > > Agreed . . . the reason one does a load analysis of the ship's system (ability to LOAD the bus versus ability of the alternator to CARRY the bus) is to show that when everything is working as designed, no positioning of panel controls will create a shortage of power. As long as bus voltage is where it belongs you know the alternator (even it it's crippled with an open diode or the something is preventing the regulator from providing full field voltage) is presently carrying all the loads presently turned on. May I suggest the following order of priority for electrical system instrumentation? (1) active notification of low voltage backed up by ov protection - this tells you that the bus voltage is within a operational window that makes for very high probability of comfortable completion of flight. (2) accurate voltmeter with 0.1 volt resolution. This is you first best clue that something is amiss. (3) alternator loadmeters are invaluable tools for diagnosing problems when the voltmeter raises the first red flag. I.e., will the alternator willingly pick up a load in spite of it being too low? This means the regulator is misadjusted or bad. Does the bus voltage sag as loads are increased? Here's where you could use . . (4) alternator field voltmeter. This is a feature included in our VLM-14 volt-loadmeter product. If bus voltage is sagging and the alternator is receiving less than full field, then the regulator is bad . . . if the alternator is full fielded and the voltage is low, the alternator is probably bad. When the low voltage light comes on or you get an ov trip, you can always get out the tools to make measurements for (2), (3) and (4) when you get on the ground. Sooooo . . . I'll suggest the minimum instrumentation is covered in (1) and anything else you choose to add will only make your relationship with the machine more convenient. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: program
> > >Bob, >What I was hoping for was a file that I could open in TurboCad, similar to >those you provided last week. Thanks for all your expert help. >Mark Steitle Oh, I didn't understand. Try: http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe and http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
> >In a message dated 2/15/2002 8:32:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jpl(at)showpage.org writes: > > > > . One thing he strongly stressed was that they wanted > > TSO'd lights. It was the ONLY equipment he even mentioned. > > > > If you're thinking of a non-TSO'd system, I'd talk to the local FAA office > > about it ahead of time. It would be a real bummer to put in a system they > > refuse to approve. > > > > -Joe > > > > > >The discussion of LED nav lights has gotten my wheels turning, and I think if >I did a retro-fit on my already-flying RV, I would take it upon myself to >deem it a _minor change_, and not notify anyone beyond making an airframe >logbook entry. In other words, for you who aren't signed off yet, make the >change later and keep flying... who says the Feds have to know everything? Agreed . . . but I'll suggest a solid technical approach to trying the new lighting. A simple photographer's light meter will let you do a rough spherical survey of the TSO'd system before you remove it from the airplane. You can use these measurements as a baseline for anything you would propose as a replacement. In fact, you can do measurements on the bench before you remove anything from the airplane. I'd have no problem whatsoever with advancing the state of the art . . . your task is to show how your advancement is equal to or better than what you're replacing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
Date: Feb 15, 2002
The FAR 23.1389 spells out Position light distribution and intensities. While FAR 23.1401 does the same for the Anticollision light system. No need to measure, as they probably exceed the regs to pass. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED nav lights . . . > >In a message dated 2/15/2002 8:32:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jpl(at)showpage.org writes: > > > > . One thing he strongly stressed was that they wanted > > TSO'd lights. It was the ONLY equipment he even mentioned. > > > > If you're thinking of a non-TSO'd system, I'd talk to the local FAA office > > about it ahead of time. It would be a real bummer to put in a system they > > refuse to approve. > > > > -Joe > > > > > >The discussion of LED nav lights has gotten my wheels turning, and I think if >I did a retro-fit on my already-flying RV, I would take it upon myself to >deem it a _minor change_, and not notify anyone beyond making an airframe >logbook entry. In other words, for you who aren't signed off yet, make the >change later and keep flying... who says the Feds have to know everything? Agreed . . . but I'll suggest a solid technical approach to trying the new lighting. A simple photographer's light meter will let you do a rough spherical survey of the TSO'd system before you remove it from the airplane. You can use these measurements as a baseline for anything you would propose as a replacement. In fact, you can do measurements on the bench before you remove anything from the airplane. I'd have no problem whatsoever with advancing the state of the art . . . your task is to show how your advancement is equal to or better than what you're replacing. Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net>
Subject: autolight alternator
Bob, I recently purchased an engine from a Cassna 177 to put in a homebuilt. The alternator on it seems to be an autolight unit and it has a field terminal. I would like to replace this ironmongery with a B&C unit eventually, but don't want to spend the money just now. I'm wondering what regulator to use. I would use the B&C regulator if it will work with this alternator, so as to be ready for the B&C alternator. Otherwise what regulator should I go with? regards and TIA Jim Bean RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Marshall" <robert.marshall(at)bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
Date: Feb 15, 2002
I have just selected LED Nav lights for a new aircraft I am working on at work. The meet all the FAR 23 requirements but unfortunately they are rated for 28V. It can't be that difficult to adopt the power input for 12V, although I suspect they might be a bit expensive. http://www.goodrich-hella.com/# ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mprather(at)hostpro.net
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
Date: Feb 15, 2002
So your interpretation of the regs is that they are minimums...IE, if they are at least as bright or brighter than the example chart shown than you are good to go? That would be cool. I agree with Mr. Nuckolls idea of using a simple photographic light meter for verification. I am pretty sure that it would be fairly easy to eliminate nulls in the output by placing enough bulbs in the fixture. You wouldn't know whether you had accomplished your goal unless you did a little instrumentation. I think you could dang-near cover the airplane in LED's and still use less power than the blessed incandescents. This probably wouldn't be all that large an issue, except that I am paranoid about flying into some field after sundown and capturing that attention of some friendly aviation administration personnel with my very cool (literally), but slightly different looking light display. At least if you had done a little homework up front you might satisfy whomever started asking questions. I think its a matter of at what point you want to deal with the hassle. I, however, do agree that all of this is kind of nonsense since strobes are about 50x (at least) more visible. Regards, Matt- VE N34RD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> Date: Friday, February 15, 2002 9:23 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED nav lights . . . > > The FAR 23.1389 spells out Position light distribution and > intensities.While FAR 23.1401 does the same for the Anticollision > light system. No need > to measure, as they probably exceed the regs to pass. > > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org > > I'd have no problem whatsoever with advancing the state of the > art . . . your task is to show how your advancement is equal to > or better than what you're replacing. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
> >The FAR 23.1389 spells out Position light distribution and intensities. >While FAR 23.1401 does the same for the Anticollision light system. No need >to measure, as they probably exceed the regs to pass. Not and issue with articles already TSOed and part of any certificated installation . . . we were talking about a scientific approach to alternative systems developed with the notion of doing-better-for-less on an experimental airplane. A builder's rational for making the equal-to-or- better case is to measure the system he intends to replace with a suitable instrument and then repeat the measurement on the alternative system with the SAME instrument. We can eliminate the variable of absolute calibration of the measuring device in that we're using it only to make a comparative judgement between two systems. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
> > >I have just selected LED Nav lights for a new aircraft I am working on at >work. The meet all the FAR 23 requirements but unfortunately they are rated >for 28V. >It can't be that difficult to adopt the power input for 12V, although I >suspect they might be a bit expensive. Can you share manufacturer and part numbers with us? Haven't followed these products closely . . . I know of an effort to put a white LED light on the Beechjet and it stands to reason that the same folk (Whelan) would be following up as soon as possible with the other colors. Your note suggests that all three colors are now available. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Marshall" <robert.marshall(at)bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
Date: Feb 15, 2002
Sorry I thought I attached a link to Goodrich Hella. Hella are a German Company more famous for their automotive products who have sold their aerospace business to Goodrich. The also make HID or Xenon Landing and Taxi lights that use a fraction of the power of incandescents, but require a power supply module within 17" of the lamp. As seen on BMW's and other large German cars. Here's the link again: http://www.goodrich-hella.com/ Part Nos Part No. Red = 2LA 455 358-xx and Part No. Green = 2LA 455 359-xx By the way Bob I have been off the list for a while and a few months ago you were talking of posting a Electrical Load Analysis method, did anything come of that, should I search the archive ? Bob M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED nav lights . . . > > > > > > >I have just selected LED Nav lights for a new aircraft I am working on at > >work. The meet all the FAR 23 requirements but unfortunately they are rated > >for 28V. > >It can't be that difficult to adopt the power input for 12V, although I > >suspect they might be a bit expensive. > > Can you share manufacturer and part numbers with us? > Haven't followed these products closely . . . I know > of an effort to put a white LED light on the Beechjet > and it stands to reason that the same folk (Whelan) would > be following up as soon as possible with the other colors. > Your note suggests that all three colors are now available. > > Bob . . . > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: Jim Burley <j.r.burley(at)larc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Mac CAD info
For those Mac user out there... Take a look at CADintosh - it's very capable for a low cost ($30) CAD shareware package. only problem I've found is it only reads DXF files, not DWG. In fact, every CAD program I've used on the Mac - even the expensive ones, have this problem. Would you or someone on this list be willing to post the "wirebook" files in DXF format? It would really make us Mac users happy! Jim Burley ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: LED nav lights . . .
Robert Marshall wrote: > > Sorry I thought I attached a link to Goodrich Hella. > Hella are a German Company more famous for their automotive products who > have sold their aerospace business to Goodrich. The also make HID or Xenon > Landing and Taxi lights that use a fraction of the power of incandescents, > but require a power supply module within 17" of the lamp. As seen on BMW's > and other large German cars. Eaa sent out a not a month or so ago, most of the automotive HID lights are the same color as daylight (blue-white) they are nearly invisble if used as day time recognition. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak". Bill Mills > >For those Mac user out there... > >Take a look at CADintosh - it's very capable for a low cost ($30) CAD >shareware package. only problem I've found is it only reads DXF >files, not DWG. In fact, every CAD program I've used on the Mac - >even the expensive ones, have this problem. > >Would you or someone on this list be willing to post the "wirebook" >files in DXF format? It would really make us Mac users happy! > >Jim Burley ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: autolight alternator
> >Bob, >I recently purchased an engine from a Cassna 177 to put in a homebuilt. >The alternator on it seems to be an autolight unit and it has a field >terminal. I would like to replace this ironmongery with a B&C unit >eventually, but don't want to spend the money just now. I'm wondering >what regulator to use. I would use the B&C regulator if it will work >with this alternator, so as to be ready for the B&C alternator. >Otherwise what regulator should I go with? >regards and TIA >Jim Bean >RV-8 The LR3 series regulators will work fine with this alternator. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
> > > >I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak". > >Bill Mills The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read a generic ZIP file? I could post both types. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Cheap Crimpers on Ebay
Date: Feb 15, 2002
Hello, I was wandering around Ebay looking for TV stuff, and found what seems to be a Sargent ratchet crimper - for $19 plus shipping. I grabbed one. They have two more. They didn't say what brand it was, but they had a picture. AFAIK, Taiwan Inc. has not gotten around to cloning this particular tool. Last year, Light Plane Maintenance had a crimper shoot-out, and this one scored among the highest, just under AMP. The local electronics shop had'em, but they were $80, I couldn't afford them. Anyway, just thought I'd pass on the deal, if anybody was interested. I have no relation to the seller. Ebay auction #s are 1332933630 & 1332933824. Of course, the die that comes with them are useless for aircraft work, you'd have to get the PIDG and maybe RG58/59 dies for it to be any use. But its a good deal just for the frame. IF, of course it really is a Sargent ( I've been fooled before :) ). - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2002
From: Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
> > >> >> >> >>I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak". >> >>Bill Mills > > The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read > a generic ZIP file? I could post both types. > > Bob . . . > The standard freeware Mac decompression program (Stuffit Expander) handles ZIP files just fine. I too would love to get the wirebooks in DXF format. Thanks for all the time and expertise you dontate Bob. Kevin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cheap Crimpers on Ebay
Date: Feb 15, 2002
I looked at Ebay and the handle on these crimpers says Augat LRC. Does that help? David Swartzendruber Wichita do no archive > Hello, > > I was wandering around Ebay looking for TV stuff, and found what seems to > be a Sargent ratchet crimper - for $19 plus shipping. I grabbed one. They > have two more. They didn't say what brand it was, but they had a picture. > AFAIK, Taiwan Inc. has not gotten around to cloning this particular tool. > Last year, Light Plane Maintenance had a crimper shoot-out, and this one > scored among the highest, just under AMP. The local electronics shop > had'em, but they were $80, I couldn't afford them. > > Anyway, just thought I'd pass on the deal, if anybody was interested. I > have no relation to the seller. Ebay auction #s are 1332933630 & > 1332933824. Of course, the die that comes with them are useless for > aircraft work, you'd have to get the PIDG and maybe RG58/59 dies for it > to be any use. But its a good deal just for the frame. IF, of course it > really is a Sargent ( I've been fooled before :) ). > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Feb 15, 2002
Subject: Re: current limiter
Bob If I use the ANL current limiters for both my alternators, which ones do I use? I will be using the B&C 40 amp alternator as primary and the pad mounted 20 amp alt. as secondary. These ANL's come in 60 and 40 amp rated. Would I use the 60A for the 40 amp alt and the 40A for the 20 amp alternator? Jim Robinson using Fig z-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Cheap Crimpers on Ebay
Date: Feb 16, 2002
David Swartzendruber wrote: > > > I looked at Ebay and the handle on these crimpers says Augat LRC. Does that > help? > *** Well, Augat is a manufacturer of high-quality connectors. Machined-pin IC sockets, that sort of thing. They may have had Sargent house-brand it for them. I'll see when mine arrives... - Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Feb 16, 2002
Subject: Re: wire sizing
Is there a source for determining wire sizes for specific loads and length of runs. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2002
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: wire sizing
Jim - Yes. Bob Nuckoll's "how-to" book "The AeroElectric Connection" has a full chapter on wire selection and installation. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html#aec9 for a complete list of what's in the book (17 chapters and appendix Z). Bill Mills RANS Courier in progress SF bay area Calif. > > >Is there a source for determining wire sizes for specific loads and >length of runs. > >Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Feb 16, 2002
Subject: Re: wire sizing
Thanks I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Dual fuel gage
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Anyone know a source for dual fuel gage (2" 1/4) with non-crossing pointers ? Sorry if this in the wrong place to ask. Any comments appreciated. Thanks, Gilles Thesee MCR 4 seater panel in progress. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dual fuel gage
Date: Feb 16, 2002
Rochester Gauges in Dallas, Texas makes one that's used in the new Cessna's. I don't know if they'll sell them to other people or not. David Swartzendruber Wichita > Anyone know a source for dual fuel gage (2" 1/4) with non-crossing pointers > ? > Sorry if this in the wrong place to ask. > > Any comments appreciated. > Thanks, > > Gilles Thesee > MCR 4 seater panel in progress. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric Kaltenbacher" <ekalten1(at)tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Cessna Wiring Diagrams
Date: Feb 17, 2002
I'm looking for a schematic showing the wiring of the instrument panel in a 1978 Cessa 152 Aerobat. I was hoping to find this information in electronic format on the web. Do any of you know where I might be able to find it. Thank you! Eric Kaltenbacher ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Disconnecting electrics
Date: Feb 17, 2002
">Another question comes to mind. I believe that you and B&C sell onlyfemale>PDIG fastons. I would like to find some male ones but have not. Can you>tell me a source? I want to use them as disconnects at the wing root for>wires in the wing. Is that considered satisfactory or bad? I have male PIDG style connectors I ordered in to look at. They DO have metallic insulation support. They're a Waldom-Molex part. I'm writing up a short article about them that will be published on the website. I don't recommend them. The knife splices are far superior for this task. In the mean time take a peek at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice1.jpg http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice2.jpg http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/FastOnMale.jpg If you really want the male fast-ons, I'm going to sell the ones that I have for what I've got in them. A bag of 20 pieces is $10 each postage paid. I have red and blue sizes. Bob . . ." Bob: I have pondered this exchange, and agree that PIDGs are not the way to go for wingroot separators. I very much like your recommendation for knife-splice connectors, particularly behind inst. panel and other irregular disconnections. However, the Europa will call for disconnects every sojourn and this means much fingerwork and flexing over a year. Rather than the knife splice [which CAN be covered with heatshrink, but not every flight], cannot I use your suggested 9- or 15pin RS232 connectors if suitably goobered with your Shoo Goo and perhaps anchored with clips for flight? Any alternative? Ferg diesel Europa A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Disconnecting electrics
> >">Another question comes to mind. I believe that you and B&C sell >onlyfemale>PDIG fastons. I would like to find some male ones but have not. >Can you>tell me a source? I want to use them as disconnects at the wing >root for>wires in the wing. Is that considered satisfactory or bad? > I have male PIDG style connectors I ordered in to look at. >They DO have metallic insulation support. They're a Waldom-Molex part. I'm >writing up a short article about them that will be published on the website. >I don't recommend them. The knife splices are far superior for this task. >In the mean time take a peek at: > http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice1.jpg > http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice2.jpg > http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/FastOnMale.jpg > If you really want the male fast-ons, I'm going to sell the ones that I >have for what I've got in them. A bag of 20 pieces is $10 each postage paid. >I have red and blue sizes. Bob . . ." > >Bob: > I have pondered this exchange, and agree that PIDGs are not the >way to go for wingroot separators. I very much like your recommendation for >knife-splice connectors, particularly behind inst. panel and other irregular >disconnections. However, the Europa will call for disconnects every sojourn >and this means much fingerwork and flexing over a year. > Rather than the knife splice [which CAN be covered with >heatshrink, but not every flight], cannot I use your suggested 9- or 15pin >RS232 connectors if suitably goobered with your Shoo Goo and perhaps >anchored with clips for flight? Any alternative? If you need multiple and routine mate/de-mate operations for wiring, consider real connector of some kind. The D-subs are an option. You can parallel pins for higher current operations in some wires like landing light and nav lights. Don't know that I'd use Shoo-Goo in this application. It made sense were we want to reduce the bulk of the connector in the confined quarters occupied by a trim actuator. For your portable-airplane, wing root connectors, I'd use full up connector hoods to strain relieve the wire bundles. I've been planning an edition of Shop Notes on this subject. I'll try to get that written and published in the next week or so. Bob . . . >Ferg >diesel Europa A064 > > Bob . . . -------------------------- TEMPORARY WEBSITE ADDRESS: http://209.134.106.21 -------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna Wiring Diagrams
> > >I'm looking for a schematic showing the wiring of the instrument >panel in a 1978 Cessa 152 Aerobat. I was hoping to find this >information >in electronic format on the web. Do any of you know where I might >be able to find it. > >Thank you! >Eric Kaltenbacher These drawings are proprietary content and format published by Cessna in the Maintenance manual for the airplane. Cessna uses page/per/system drawings serialized to the specific airplane. I think you can order the Maintenance manual from the Cessna Service parts folks on CD Rom for a pretty reasonable fee. If that doesn't work, see if a local FBO will let you photocopy the necessary pages from a book or shoot you copies from his micro film edition. I don't think it would involve more than a dozen pages . . . that airplane doesn't have much wire in it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: wire sizing
> > >Thanks >I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that >page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps. > >Jim Jim, those pages are in chapter 8 which are not downloadable from the website. Tell me which pages you need and I'll mail them to you. Your chapter 8 should be a total of 8 sheets of paper printed both sides for a total of 16 pages. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Disconnecting electrics
Fergus; For an alternative this is a more costly route but try looking at this web site; http://www.amphenol-aerospace.com/viewer1.asp?target="_blank" These connectors are purpose built for what you want to do. Bob McC Fergus Kyle wrote: > Rather than the knife splice [which CAN be covered with > heatshrink, but not every flight], cannot I use your suggested 9- or 15pin > RS232 connectors if suitably goobered with your Shoo Goo and perhaps > anchored with clips for flight? Any alternative? > Ferg > diesel Europa A064 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Disconnecting electrics
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > If you need multiple and routine mate/de-mate operations for > wiring, consider real connector of some kind. The D-subs are > an option. *** If I was doing this, I'd be tempted to use some sort of multiple banana plug connector. I've used "GR Plugs" for years in automotive amateur radio applications. These are two banana plugs spaced 3/4 inch apart with matching banana jacks on the back end. Their one disadvantage is that they don't have anything to prevent you from plugging them in backwards. I say this because banana plugs can tolerate an amazing amount of abuse. I have NEVER seen one go intermittant. And I have put 20 amps through a GR plug, and it never even got warm. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Subject: Re: wire sizing
> > > > > > > >Thanks > >I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that > >page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps. > > > >Jim > > > Jim, those pages are in chapter 8 which are not downloadable > from the website. Tell me which pages you need and I'll mail > them to you. Your chapter 8 should be a total of 8 sheets of > paper printed both sides for a total of 16 pages. > > Bob . . . > > Bob Do you mean in my original AeroElectric connection book? I can't seem to put my fingers on that right now. I will continue to look. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Subject: Re: wire sizing
> > > > > > > >Thanks > >I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that > >page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps. > > > >Jim > > > Jim, those pages are in chapter 8 which are not downloadable > from the website. Tell me which pages you need and I'll mail > them to you. Your chapter 8 should be a total of 8 sheets of > paper printed both sides for a total of 16 pages. > > Bob . . . Bob I found my book and the chapter 8. Thanks. I had put it away after the Salt Lake City seminar and forgot where I put it. Thanks again for the heads-up. > Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
Bob - I have downloaded the wirebook.exe file. When I try to open it I get: "the document 'wirebook.exe' could not be opened because the application program that created it could not be found". I did a "google" search to find a downloadable program on zip files and downloaded "winzip81.exe" thinking I may be able to un-zip SOMETHING by myself, but am still unable to open the document. I'm fumbling in the dark here - will call the family computer-guy for help. Thank you - Bill > The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read > a generic ZIP file? I could post both types. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Subject: landing light relays?
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Wondering what type of relay to use for a 100 W landing light (controlled from Infinity stick grip)? I was looking at a relay in Radio Shack yesterday rated for 10 A @12 VDC. This would be enough for the continuous currrent draw of a 100 W bulb, but due to the inrush current I seem to recall 'Lectric Bob recommending toggle switches rated for at 20 A. Assuming the same applies to a relay (??), can anybody recommend a good source for such a critter? I prefer a double pole single throw since I plan to power both the landing and taxi lights (on separate circuits) with a single button on the stick grip. Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A finish kit stuff... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Subject: Re: Disconnecting electrics
Hi Fergus: Suggestion, Bob and several other listers suggested that I look into AMP's Circular Plastic Connectors recently for instrument panel disconnects. I ordered some from Mouser Electronics and I am very favorably impressed with their quality and reasonable cost. Check http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com or call their technical support center at 1-800-522-6752 and ask for their catalog 82021. It's loaded with helpful information. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Belated List of Contributors #2...
Dear Listers, I'd like to apologize for the delay in posting the 2001 List of Contributors Number 2, as well as getting behind in the List Photo Shares. Here's my sad story... Over the Christmas holidays, I was working out in the shop on a rotating drum sander. I was sanding out the woofer hole in a speaker enclosure and, long story short, the part got away from me and started spinning like a Hula hoop on the drum. Rather than just turning the machine off like I should have done, I tried to grab the part and in the process badly broke the ring fingers on *both* my right and left hands!! I had to go in for surgery on the left hand because of the joint damage and was stuck in a thing called an "external fixator" for almost 4 weeks. The right hand has healed up well, but the left one is very stiff and I'm currently only getting about 70 degrees of bend. The doctor says that I will get 80-90% of the moment back with a great deal of therapy and I'm going to hold them to that... The moral of the story is that even a sander can be a dangerous tool. I had been working with a table saw, drill press, scroll saw, and high power routers all day long and afforded them all the respect they deserved. But with the sander, I never even thought about how things could go bad. It just didn't seem like a dangerous tool. Be careful out there in the shop. In a moment you can hurt yourself; hurt yourself in such a way that you will have to live with the damage the rest of your life. Nothing is worth that. I'm finally back working on the computer and getting back to email and other stuff. Later today I will be processing the mound of Photo Shares that have backed up while I was out. I also just finished up the 2001 List Contributions and have included the List Number 2 below. I want to thank everyone that has so generously contributed to the List this past year! It is your Contributions that make these Lists possible. I understand that the Van's Videos from the Builder's Bookstore should be shipping very soon if not already, and the discount coupons from Brown Tools should already have arrived. Thanks again to Andy Gold and Michael Brown for their generous support of the Lists this year with these giveaways! Oh, and now that my fingers are working pretty well again, I've decided to go ahead and finish my RV-4!! I had a LOT of guilt over wanting to sell it... :-) Happy Building and Flying! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Alexander, Don Alexander, George Andrews, Jim Anonymous Blake, James Bowman, John Buryl, Hill Butler, Sherman Cantrell, Jimmy DeRuiter, Marcel Deffner, David Graumlich, Tom Griffin, Randy Harbour, Keith Hunt, Robin Jannon, Terence Johnson, Jackie Kahn, Steve Labhart, Norm Laird, David Larson, Joe Licking, Larry Maynard, Brad Navratil, Richard Noonan, Thomas Petersen, Paul Reed, Gary Rogers, Ken Salter, Phillip Schmit, John Schultz, David Sheffield, Ray Smith, Edmond Staley, Dick Utterback, Tom Uvanni, Bruce Williams, Henry Wilson, Robert Woodward, Don Worthington, Victor Zirges, Malcom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net>
Date: Feb 17, 2002
Subject: Re: RE: a few questions f
I am using circuit breakers ( don't stone me for this) and I wonder how to incorporate this into the z4 drawing. The drawing says to keep the 10AWG wire to the aux/main battery busses 6" or less. There is no way to do this with that wire coming to the CB panel approx 2 ft. from the firewall. Also the main/aux pwr bus has a 4AWG wire feeding each of these. These feed wires do not have protection. Is that because they are oversized to begin with and short in length the way they are utilized in the diagram? If these wires were 2.5 ft in length would that change the rational? Could I size these feed wires more closely to the load requirement? Jim Robinson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
> > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >>I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak". > >> > >>Bill Mills > > > > The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read > > a generic ZIP file? I could post both types. > > > > Bob . . . > > > >The standard freeware Mac decompression program (Stuffit Expander) >handles ZIP files just fine. I too would love to get the wirebooks >in DXF format. I've not looked over the two drawing files on the wesite for awhile. I'll see if I can take a sort of best-of collection of the AutoCADs and .dxf the hummers . . . better yet, can your MAC CAD program read .dwg AutoCADs? If so, all I need to do is zip the basic cad drawings without converting to .dxf. While better than a start from scratch, .dxf files will lose some nuances of appearance in the originals when sucked into other cad programs. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
> > >Bob - > >I have downloaded the wirebook.exe file. When I try to open it I get: >"the document 'wirebook.exe' could not be opened because the >application program that created it could not be found". > >I did a "google" search to find a downloadable program on zip files >and downloaded "winzip81.exe" thinking I may be able to un-zip >SOMETHING by myself, but am still unable to open the document. >I'm fumbling in the dark here - will call the family computer-guy for help. > >Thank you - >Bill If your running a MAC, the self-extracting wirebook.exe will not unfold itself. If you can UNZIP files with a MAC friendly program, then what you will end up with are .dwg files unique to AutoCAD and shared with a lot of other applications. IF you can UNzip . . I can easily post the same drawings as a collection of .dwg in a .zip. If your CAD program won't open AutoCAD .dwg files, then I'll have to convert to .dxf or .iges files . . . very large and not 100% portable to other CAD programs . . . but still useful perhaps. You need to find out if you can open a .dwg file. Download this and try it. http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection with non-self-extracting .zip files. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: landing light relays?
> >Wondering what type of relay to use for a 100 W landing light (controlled >from Infinity stick grip)? I was looking at a relay in Radio Shack >yesterday rated for 10 A @12 VDC. This would be enough for the >continuous currrent draw of a 100 W bulb, but due to the inrush current I >seem to recall 'Lectric Bob recommending toggle switches rated for at 20 >A. Assuming the same applies to a relay (??), can anybody recommend a >good source for such a critter? I prefer a double pole single throw >since I plan to power both the landing and taxi lights (on separate >circuits) with a single button on the stick grip. > >Thanks, Radio Shack stocks a 20-30A relay that might be billed as a headlight or horn relay. It's about a 1" black plastic cube and may also have a mounting bracket on it. It's a close cousin to our S704-1 relays you can see at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/switch.html#s704-1 If it were my airplane, this is the relay I'd use. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
No joy Bob - When I go to open it in my Appleworks program it still comes out "hieroglyphics". I need to find a CAD program that'll work on these files but don't wish to spend the time - considering my very small needs. Since you've supplied me with all the drawings I need for my wirebook I may simply do it the old fashioned way. When I was at your seminar at Livermore you showed us how to put drawings onto graph paper and copy them(sans gridwork). My RANS Courier is stone simple and this will work fine for me. Thank you - Bill Mills RANS Courier in progress SF bay area Calif. > If your running a MAC, the self-extracting wirebook.exe will > not unfold itself. If you can UNZIP files with a MAC friendly > program, then what you will end up with are .dwg files unique > to AutoCAD and shared with a lot of other applications. > > IF you can UNzip . . I can easily post the same drawings > as a collection of .dwg in a .zip. If your CAD program won't > open AutoCAD .dwg files, then I'll have to convert to .dxf > or .iges files . . . very large and not 100% portable to > other CAD programs . . . but still useful perhaps. You need > to find out if you can open a .dwg file. Download this > and try it. > > http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG > > If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then > it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection > with non-self-extracting .zip files. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Dual fuel gage
Date: Feb 17, 2002
----- Message d'origine ----- De : "David Swartzendruber" : Envoy : dimanche 17 fvrier 2002 02:31 Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual fuel gage > > Rochester Gauges in Dallas, Texas makes one that's used in the new Cessna's. > I don't know if they'll sell them to other people or not. > David Thanks for the info. I'll check their website. Cheers, Gilles ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: Kevin & Theresa Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
> > >> >> >>Bob - >> >>I have downloaded the wirebook.exe file. When I try to open it I get: >>"the document 'wirebook.exe' could not be opened because the >>application program that created it could not be found". >> >>I did a "google" search to find a downloadable program on zip files >>and downloaded "winzip81.exe" thinking I may be able to un-zip >>SOMETHING by myself, but am still unable to open the document. >>I'm fumbling in the dark here - will call the family computer-guy for help. >> >>Thank you - >>Bill > > > If your running a MAC, the self-extracting wirebook.exe will > not unfold itself. If you can UNZIP files with a MAC friendly > program, then what you will end up with are .dwg files unique > to AutoCAD and shared with a lot of other applications. > > IF you can UNzip . . I can easily post the same drawings > as a collection of .dwg in a .zip. If your CAD program won't > open AutoCAD .dwg files, then I'll have to convert to .dxf > or .iges files . . . very large and not 100% portable to > other CAD programs . . . but still useful perhaps. You need > to find out if you can open a .dwg file. Download this > and try it. > > http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG > > If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then > it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection > with non-self-extracting .zip files. > > Bob . . . > You are correct that the self-extracting .exe won't run on a Mac, but Stuffit Expander (the most common free Mac file decompression utility) is smart enough to extract the compressed files and expand them. All you have to do is drag the .exe file to the Stuffit Expander icon, and let it do its magic. The problem is that I can't find a cheap Mac program that can read .dwg files. Kevin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
Kevin - I used stuffit to extract the files - this works ok and I get a folder on the desktop with ten different goodies, four of them drawings. When I click on any of them (except the READ_ME.TXT, I get: "this file is too large to open in simple text". If I try to open it in appleworks I get the hieroglyphics. On some of them I get "could not find the application . . . " As the man once said "if it's not on fire it's a software problem". Thank you - Bill (got dem ol' "betamax" blues) Mills >You are correct that the self-extracting .exe won't run on a Mac, but >Stuffit Expander (the most common free Mac file decompression >utility) is smart enough to extract the compressed files and expand >them. All you have to do is drag the .exe file to the Stuffit >Expander icon, and let it do its magic. The problem is that I can't >find a cheap Mac program that can read .dwg files. > >Kevin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: rswan19(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: landing light relays?
You might want to check Jameco Electronics, they have a large assortment of relays at very good prices. They also have sockets with the diode already mounted. Here is the ones I used for my flap relays, they have 12v 40 amp contacts. https://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=91523;722; R ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Keith Hughes" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 17, 2002
I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept, but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive, negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight. In over my head, Keith Hughes RV-6, Denver (66 degrees and sunny) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: re: Breakers vs. fuses on the battery bus . . .
> > >I am using circuit breakers ( don't stone me for this) and I wonder >how to incorporate this into the z4 drawing. The drawing says to >keep the 10AWG wire to the aux/main battery busses 6" or less. >There is no way to do this with that wire coming to the CB panel >approx 2 ft. from the firewall. This shouldn't be a problem . . . battery busses are right next to the battery . . . whether you use fuses or breakers is immaterial. The bizjets have LOTS of breakers that are NOT in the cockpit . . . battery busses are one of them. > Also the main/aux pwr bus has a >4AWG wire feeding each of these. These feed wires do not have >protection. Is that because they are oversized to begin with and >short in length the way they are utilized in the diagram? If these >wires were 2.5 ft in length would that change the rational? >Could I size these feed wires more closely to the load requirement? These wires don't need protection because they are main feeders that tend to burn clear as opposed to hard faulting to ground. In areas where there is mechanical risk of hard faulting, we simply provide extra care in routing and protecting the wire. They should be sized for the full output rating of your alternator that feeds that particular bus. And SD-20 main feed could drop to 10AWG, but I'd leave the other one at 4AWG. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hebeard2(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2002
Subject: Re: Disconnecting electrics
Bob or anyone, Would the Radio Shack polarized connectors be suitable for wing root disconnects? (p/n 274-151 male, 274-154 female at $.99 each) They are rated at 20 amps and cannot be connected the wrong way, and as the name says are interlocked. Harley Beard RV-6A finish kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 18, 2002
> > I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I > found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept, > but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the > pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The > schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive, > negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight. > > In over my head, Hi Kieth. First, (according my Maplin catalogue) the LM358 has two op amps on the chip. If your circuit only needs one op amp you can ignore your spare one (three of the terminals). This leaves you five terminals. Three are the op amp terminals on the schematic, i.e. -IN (inverting), +IN (non inverting) and OUTPUT. The remaining two terminals are for the power supply, i.e +Vs and ground. Op amps always need a power supply, but these are sometimes omitted on schematics. Assuming you have the DIL package, hold it facing you with the little half moon cut out at the top. Then number the terminals 1,2,3,4, from top to bottom on the left side, and 8,7,6,5 from top to bottom on the right hand side. The pinout is then: 1 OUTPUT 2 -IN 3 +IN 4 -Vs (ground) 8 +Vs (power) 5,6&7 are for the second op amp. Hope this helps. Piers P.S, I haven't used a LM358 myself, the above pinout information is from the Maplin catalogue. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 18, 2002
Oops... Sorry Keith, I spelt your name wrong. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2002
From: "lehmansmtl" <lehmansmtl(at)netzero.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 02/17/02
'AeroElectric-List Digest Server' wrote:=0A=0A- * - AeroElectric-List Digest Archive - --- - Total Messages Posted Sun 02/17/02: 25 - - - _______ - From: "Eric Kaltenbach ...'=0A=0A=0A> Take a look to the attachment. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Disconnecting electrics
Date: Feb 18, 2002
If you want a locking, sealed connector with high quality contacts, check out the Duetsch Industrial line of connectors at www.laddinc.com. The DTM series are fairly compact and handle up to 7.5 amps per pin. The DT series are a little bigger, but handle up to 13 amps per pin. Both use solid pins crimped with a Daniels type crimper. If you don't need it sealed, the AMP CPC connectors are a good choice as someone else mentioned. AMP is also starting to offer certain sizes of the CPC connectors in a sealed version. David Swartzendruber Wichita > > Bob or anyone, > > Would the Radio Shack polarized connectors be suitable for wing root > disconnects? (p/n 274-151 male, 274-154 female at $.99 each) > They are rated > at 20 amps and cannot be connected the wrong way, and as the > name says are > interlocked. > Harley Beard RV-6A finish kit. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: basic schematic help
> >I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I >found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept, >but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the >pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The >schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive, >negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight. Integrated circuits have some means of identifying the #1 pin. This may be a little dot painted or molded into the top surface. Some ICs have a notch or recess molded into the end of the chip adjacent to the #1 pin. While looking down on the TOP of any chip with the long dimension horizontal, the #1 pin is always in the upper right or lower left corner. Use the notch, recess, dot etc to determine whether it's right or left end. Starting with #1, count away from the pin on the same side to the far end then go around the corner and count back to the other end. The highest pin # for an integrated circuit is always directly opposite #1 on the same end. When an integrated circuit is shown on a schematic, it's some kind of box or perhaps a triangle. Wires coming up to the box will have one or more numbers adjacent to the intersection. These are the numbers you connect to the wire and each other. For example, if you see a wire coming up to the box and the numbers are 2,6 . . . then you connect pins 2 and 6 together for this junction. Pin numbers not depicted on the schematic are left unconnected. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 18, 2002
BOB. Its a good idea to ground the input pin (s) of any unused opamp or logic element in multi circuit chips. 4 circuit chips using using two should have the unused two's input pins grounded. This stabilizes the otherwise open input circuits that can oscillate and cause problems. With the newer higher speed parts this is even more important. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: basic schematic help > >I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I >found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept, >but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the >pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The >schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive, >negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight. Integrated circuits have some means of identifying the #1 pin. This may be a little dot painted or molded into the top surface. Some ICs have a notch or recess molded into the end of the chip adjacent to the #1 pin. While looking down on the TOP of any chip with the long dimension horizontal, the #1 pin is always in the upper right or lower left corner. Use the notch, recess, dot etc to determine whether it's right or left end. Starting with #1, count away from the pin on the same side to the far end then go around the corner and count back to the other end. The highest pin # for an integrated circuit is always directly opposite #1 on the same end. When an integrated circuit is shown on a schematic, it's some kind of box or perhaps a triangle. Wires coming up to the box will have one or more numbers adjacent to the intersection. These are the numbers you connect to the wire and each other. For example, if you see a wire coming up to the box and the numbers are 2,6 . . . then you connect pins 2 and 6 together for this junction. Pin numbers not depicted on the schematic are left unconnected. Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net>
Subject: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 18, 2002
> While looking down on the TOP of any chip with the long > dimension horizontal, the #1 pin is always in the upper > right or lower left corner. Use the notch, recess, dot > etc to determine whether it's right or left end. > I was about to write and corect Bob here, but take note that he lays his chip HORIZONTALLY. If you view it vertically, as I tend to, pin 1 is upper LEFT or lower RIGHT. That one word makes a huge difference! (Top of chip, showing both notch and dot. most chips will have one or the other or both:) +--\/--+ 1 -|o |-8 | | 2 -| |-7 | | 3 -| |-6 | | 4 -| |-5 +------+ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Cameron" <toucan(at)78055.com>
Subject: OV warning pin on LR3B-14
Date: Feb 18, 2002
Dear Bob, I'm using the LR3B-14 in my Lancair ES, and am having a bit of trouble getting the OV warning function to work. Instead of using an incandescent bulb on the panel, I'm using pin 5 of the LR3B as an input to a warning light panel of my own design. The warning light panel uses opto-isolators as the front end, and can be jumper-configured for either active (on) high, or active low. The total current through the front end is approx. 6.5mA per channel. I set up my voltage warning as active low, assuming that pin 5 would be pulled low when the voltage is out of the window. My warning light, however, stays on all the time. I've traced the wiring, and it seems correct; also, the other 9 warning lights function as intended. Can you see any reason why this shouldn't work? I'm guessing that pin 5 is an open-collector type output, since it sinks current from the lamp in the usual schematic shown by B&C. Is it possible that some small current flows into pin 5 all the time? This might not make an incandescent lamp light, but may be enough to trigger my warning light panel. Just guessing there. Jim Cameron Lancair ES N143ES ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Keith Hughes" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 18, 2002
Thanks Piers, and others who answered. I think I figured it out. I will test it tonight. The problem that was bothering me was not which pin was number 1-8, but how do they relate to the diagram, i.e. the schematic seems to look like a triangle with two inputs on the left, and one output on the right. Those three seemed to make a little sense when I saw what Piers wrote below. Then there are two vertical inputs on the triangle. If they are positive and ground, then I looked at the rest of the circuit and saw that one went to the ground side and the other went to the source. Anyway, thanks to all who answered. I'm slowly making sense of this and I hope tonight when I power it up it'll work. Keith > > Hi Kieth. > > First, (according my Maplin catalogue) the LM358 has two op amps on the > chip. If your circuit only needs one op amp you can ignore your spare one > (three of the terminals). > > This leaves you five terminals. Three are the op amp terminals on the > schematic, i.e. -IN (inverting), +IN (non inverting) and OUTPUT. The > remaining two terminals are for the power supply, i.e +Vs and ground. Op > amps always need a power supply, but these are sometimes omitted on > schematics. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
Subject: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual buss
Date: Feb 18, 2002
Hi Bob, As requested, here is my re-phrased question presented on the list. If a general opinion can't be rendered without a detailed wiring diagram, let me know. First, my goal is to build an RV3 day-VFR airplane that stresses safe, reliable cross-country capability. Because I chose an RV3, obviously light weight and build simplicity are also important. I'm installing Jeff Rose's dual electronic ignition and B&C's alternator and regulator. I still like your essential buss system because it provided great service on my RV6A. However, Jeff Rose's proposed system appears to have some advantages and I thought it worth while to explore it with you and the list. Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the use of: 1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches. 3) Alternator connected directly to one battery. 4) One main buss. Simply put, the idea is to be able to connect the system any combination of E.I.'s and batteries. If a battery, E.I., or an alternator fails, you have back-up and you decide when and what electrical items to turn-off. I don't like the extra weight, cost, and installation complexity of two battery systems (buss is simpler) but I do like the redundancy and flexibility. If I can have a safe/reliable system without it, so much the better. Thanks, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single
battery, dual buss > > >Hi Bob, >As requested, here is my re-phrased question presented on the list. If >a general opinion can't be rendered without a detailed wiring diagram, >let me know. > >First, my goal is to build an RV3 day-VFR airplane that stresses safe, >reliable cross-country capability. Because I chose an RV3, obviously >light weight and build simplicity are also important. I'm installing >Jeff Rose's dual electronic ignition and B&C's alternator and regulator. > >I still like your essential buss system because it provided great >service on my RV6A. However, Jeff Rose's proposed system appears to >have some advantages and I thought it worth while to explore it with you >and the list. >Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the >use of: > >1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and >having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic >ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches. >3) Alternator connected directly to one battery. >4) One main buss. > >Simply put, the idea is to be able to connect the system any combination >of E.I.'s and batteries. If a battery, E.I., or an alternator fails, >you have back-up and you decide when and what electrical items to >turn-off. > >I don't like the extra weight, cost, and installation complexity of two >battery systems (buss is simpler) but I do like the redundancy and >flexibility. If I can have a safe/reliable system without it, so much >the better. Are you planning a vacuum system or can we put an SD-8 alternator on the vacuum pump pad? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2002
From: tom sargent <sarg314(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: flaring tubing
I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a cutting disk instead? I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. Any body have any tips? -- Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: basic schematic help
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Seems like you've got it sorted. If you want to follow Paul's advice, you should also connect pins 5 and 6 to ground. These are the inputs to your unused op amp. Piers ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FlyV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes: << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of the tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just remove any slight burr that might be there I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a cutting disk instead? Your tubing cutter is fine. I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. Any body have any tips? -- Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB >> Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the flareing tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It should be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the tube metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that cost about $50 which does a good job. Cliff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DWENSING(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
In a message dated 2/19/02 9:50:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, FlyV35B(at)aol.com writes: << The hardware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce a good quality flare. >> Tom, You also must use the correct angle of flaring tool. If I remember correctly aircraft fitting are 38 degrees. Automotive and hardware store tools are not 38 degrees. Dale Ensing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FlyV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
In a message dated 2/19/2002 6:57:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, DWENSING(at)aol.com writes: << << The hardware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce a good quality flare. >> Tom, You also must use the correct angle of flaring tool. If I remember correctly aircraft fitting are 38 degrees. Automotive and hardware store tools are not 38 degrees. Dale Ensing >> That's correct since most automotive fittings are 45 degree flares. Aircraft tubing is actually a 37 degree JIC flare as are most industrial hydraulic systems. Cliff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
Date: Feb 19, 2002
I've found that the use of a "double flaring tool" is the best way to go. The flares are much more robust and, I think, probably less prone to failure. My problem is that I can not find a double flaring set up for 37 deg flares. I've thought about making the initial flare with a 37 deg tool and then forming the second flare with the tool I have. More research has to be done by me on this however. Here is an interesting link on flaring: http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142 56_ch36.pdf Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Georgetown, TX Waiting to start Fuselage RV6 N699BM Reserved 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K > > > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? > > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of the > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just remove > any slight burr that might be there > > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a > cutting disk instead? > > Your tubing cutter is fine. > > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. > > Any body have any tips? > -- > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB > >> > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the flareing > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It should > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the tube > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that cost > about $50 which does a good job. > > Cliff > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
Date: Feb 19, 2002
The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should be used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link showing how to perform a single flare. http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142 56_ch36.pdf The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to perform the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool. Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares. Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my web site. I'll let you know. It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list though. http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Georgetown, TX Waiting to start Fuselage RV6 N699BM Reserved 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K ----- Original Message ----- From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing > > In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes: > > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? > > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of the > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just remove > any slight burr that might be there > > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a > cutting disk instead? > > Your tubing cutter is fine. > > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. > > Any body have any tips? > -- > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB > >> > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the flareing > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It should > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the tube > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that cost > about $50 which does a good job. > > Cliff > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: THE WEBSITE IS BACK UP . . .
I've been learning more about website architecture and programming than I ever wanted to know. The main website has been functional for access to information for several days but I just got the scripts that handle order forms working last night. I've shut off the standby service and put up pages that re-direct you back to the main site which (to my best knowledge and belief) is now fully functional. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
Date: Feb 19, 2002
About the cheapest route for quality flaring is the Rolo-Flair. $77.95 from Aircraft Spruce. Make sure you clean and smooth the cut end of the tube. Use a drop of oil with the end of the tube against the built in stop for the correct length and you should be go for any flared joint including your brake lines. Double flaring tools start at $480 and go up. Our chapter's RotoFlair has built many airplanes and repair many others at Oshkosh without a problem. Double flares are for those that wear both suspenders and a belt and still can crack and break at the same point as a single flare.. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should be used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link showing how to perform a single flare. http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142 56_ch36.pdf The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to perform the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool. Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares. Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my web site. I'll let you know. It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list though. http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com Georgetown, TX Waiting to start Fuselage RV6 N699BM Reserved 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K ----- Original Message ----- From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing > > In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes: > > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? > > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of the > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just remove > any slight burr that might be there > > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a > cutting disk instead? > > Your tubing cutter is fine. > > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. > > Any body have any tips? > -- > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB > >> > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the flareing > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It should > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the tube > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that cost > about $50 which does a good job. > > Cliff > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Mike Nellis wrote: > > It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list > though. > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html > *** Gee, and here I was all set to ask about riveting :). - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14
> >Dear Bob, > > I'm using the LR3B-14 in my Lancair ES, and am having a bit of trouble >getting the OV warning function to work. Instead of using an incandescent >bulb on the panel, I'm using pin 5 of the LR3B as an input to a warning >light panel of my own design. The warning light panel uses opto-isolators >as the front end, and can be jumper-configured for either active (on) high, >or active low. >The total current through the front end is approx. 6.5mA per channel. > I set up my voltage warning as active low, assuming that pin 5 would be >pulled low when the voltage is out of the window. My warning light, >however, stays on all the time. I've traced the wiring, and it seems >correct; also, the other 9 warning lights function as intended. > > Can you see any reason why this shouldn't work? I'm guessing that pin 5 >is an open-collector type output, since it sinks current from the lamp in >the usual schematic shown by B&C. Is it possible that some small current >flows into pin 5 all the time? This might not make an incandescent lamp >light, but may be enough to trigger my warning light panel. Just guessing >there. It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should illuminate IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the output transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp. Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp) and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage" resistor inside. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: Multiple wire connection and switch questions
Two Questions for "Lectric Bob": 1. You have probably addressed this before but I can't locate an answer so here goes. I am using a slightly customized version of your Z 11 wiring scheme, Aeroelectric S700 series switches with faston terminals and PIDG terminals. There are numerous requirements for two wires at the same switch terminal. Is it acceptable to put two wires in a single PIDG terminal? If not, what is the best way to do this? 2. In getting ready to order my switches I noticed that your catalog does not show any 2-8 type. I need one of these for a starter switch as a result of one of my "custom" features. Can you provide these or suggest a source, I have checked Digi-Key and Mouser catalogs and could not seem to find a match for the S700 series? As always, many thanks for your patience and continuing support. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual
buss
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Richard D. Fogerson wrote: > > Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the > use of: > > 1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and > having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic > ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches. > 3) Alternator connected directly to one battery. *** And the second battery is dead. What's the use? - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
Date: Feb 19, 2002
I agree the RotoFlair is probably the best way to go for a 37 deg flaring tool. However, for us guys that wear both suspenders and belts at the same time, we can get a double flaring too for less than $25. It won't do the double flare in one pass like the high dollar units but you can form the first flare with this tool and finish it up with the Roto Flair. No comparison in the quality of flares. Using a single flair on a break line is like using a butt splice to hook a couple of wires together. It'll probably work fine but is it the right way to do it? Probably not. Every steel auto brake line I've ever seen has used double flares. Can't comment on the aviation applications. Mike > Double flaring tools start at $480 and go up. > > Our chapter's RotoFlair has built many airplanes and repair many others at > Oshkosh without a problem. Double flares are for those that wear both > suspenders and a belt and still can crack and break at the same point as a > single flare.. > > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org > > Always looking for articles for the Experimenter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing > > > The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should be > used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I > will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link > showing how to perform a single flare. > http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142 > 56_ch36.pdf > > The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double > flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to perform > the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool. > > Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares. > Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section > pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my > web site. I'll let you know. > > It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list > though. > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html > > Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com > Georgetown, TX > Waiting to start Fuselage > RV6 N699BM Reserved > 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing > > > > > > In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes: > > > > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice > > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has > > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis > > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be > > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? > > > > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube > > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of > the > > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just > remove > > any slight burr that might be there > > > > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a > > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a > > cutting disk instead? > > > > Your tubing cutter is fine. > > > > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the > > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from > > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. > > > > Any body have any tips? > > -- > > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB > > >> > > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the > flareing > > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It > should > > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the > tube > > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to > produce > > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that > cost > > about $50 which does a good job. > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple wire connection and switch
questions > >Two Questions for "Lectric Bob": > >1. You have probably addressed this before but I can't locate an answer so >here goes. I am using a slightly customized version of your Z 11 wiring >scheme, Aeroelectric S700 series switches with faston terminals and PIDG >terminals. There are numerous requirements for two wires at the same switch >terminal. Is it acceptable to put two wires in a single PIDG terminal? Yes . . . as long as the cross-sectional area of the combination fits into the terminal, it's okay to put multiple wires into one crimp. > If >not, what is the best way to do this? > >2. In getting ready to order my switches I noticed that your catalog does >not show any 2-8 type. I need one of these for a starter switch as a result >of one of my "custom" features. Can you provide these or suggest a source, I >have checked Digi-Key and Mouser catalogs and could not seem to find a match >for the S700 series? Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it. >As always, many thanks for your patience and continuing support. My pleasure Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple wire connection . . .
> >Two Questions for "Lectric Bob": > >1. You have probably addressed this before but I can't locate an answer so >here goes. I am using a slightly customized version of your Z 11 wiring >scheme, Aeroelectric S700 series switches with faston terminals and PIDG >terminals. There are numerous requirements for two wires at the same switch >terminal. Is it acceptable to put two wires in a single PIDG terminal? If >not, what is the best way to do this? Yes . . . after I answered this earlier, I seemed to recall having done a piece on this very topic. Dug around a bit and found the work all loaded up to the website but never linked to the articles index page! Anywho, with your heads-up reminder I've corrected the error and I'll invite you to peek at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hottle" <jeffh(at)primatech.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: Re: 2-8 toggle switch
>>2. In getting ready to order my switches I noticed that your catalog does >>not show any 2-8 type. I need one of these for a starter switch as a result >>of one of my "custom" features. Can you provide these or suggest a source, I >>have checked Digi-Key and Mouser catalogs and could not seem to find a match >>for the S700 series? > > Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for > magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag > as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but > the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is > certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock > but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it. Digikey has a DPDT On-(On) with screw lugs, pn 360-1232-ND, $10.86 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Sorry, Thought this was an aviation site. Aviation brakes have been set up using plastic "Nylaflow" tubing. It works well, it is light and if you check it for heat damage once in a while it is satisfactory. The pressures used in light aircraft obviously are not what you find with power brakes in a car. Biggest problem when flaring is over-doing it so you thin out the material. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing I agree the RotoFlair is probably the best way to go for a 37 deg flaring tool. However, for us guys that wear both suspenders and belts at the same time, we can get a double flaring too for less than $25. It won't do the double flare in one pass like the high dollar units but you can form the first flare with this tool and finish it up with the Roto Flair. No comparison in the quality of flares. Using a single flair on a break line is like using a butt splice to hook a couple of wires together. It'll probably work fine but is it the right way to do it? Probably not. Every steel auto brake line I've ever seen has used double flares. Can't comment on the aviation applications. Mike > Double flaring tools start at $480 and go up. > > Our chapter's RotoFlair has built many airplanes and repair many others at > Oshkosh without a problem. Double flares are for those that wear both > suspenders and a belt and still can crack and break at the same point as a > single flare.. > > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org > > Always looking for articles for the Experimenter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing > > > The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should be > used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I > will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link > showing how to perform a single flare. > http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142 > 56_ch36.pdf > > The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double > flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to perform > the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool. > > Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares. > Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section > pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my > web site. I'll let you know. > > It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list > though. > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html > > Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com > Georgetown, TX > Waiting to start Fuselage > RV6 N699BM Reserved > 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing > > > > > > In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes: > > > > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice > > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has > > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis > > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be > > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it? > > > > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube > > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of > the > > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just > remove > > any slight burr that might be there > > > > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a > > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a > > cutting disk instead? > > > > Your tubing cutter is fine. > > > > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the > > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from > > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal. > > > > Any body have any tips? > > -- > > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB > > >> > > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the > flareing > > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It > should > > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the > tube > > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to > produce > > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that > cost > > about $50 which does a good job. > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual
buss
Date: Feb 19, 2002
I'm not sure what you mean but if you mean, what is the use of two batteries if one is dead, you have one that isn't and it will run your E.I.(s), alternator, starter, etc.??? Rick Fogerson ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerry(at)tr2.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual buss > > Richard D. Fogerson wrote: > > > > Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the > > use of: > > > > 1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and > > having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic > > ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches. > > 3) Alternator connected directly to one battery. > > *** And the second battery is dead. What's the use? > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
Bob (or others who tried this), I bought a pack of 6amps/50PIV diodes at Radio Shack today. I'd like to know if I can join 2 or three of them in parallel and use that to feed the essential bus from the main bus (see picture http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/dcp01400.jpg). If I load the bus with 15 amps, how hot will those diodes get? Will that be reliable? Thanks (again!) ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://sports.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual
buss
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Richard D. Fogerson wrote: > > > I'm not sure what you mean but if you mean, what is the use of two batteries > if one is dead, you have one that isn't and it will run your E.I.(s), > alternator, starter, etc.??? *** The original post said that only one battery is connected to the alternator. Therefor, the other battery (that is not connected to the alternator ) is always dead. Why carry it? I'm sure there's something I'm missing here.... - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: flaring tubing
The reason for double flaring steel tubing is that it splits if you try to single flare it. R ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: cutting tubing
In a message dated 02/19/2002 2:52:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, tom sargent writes: <> 2/19/2002 Hello Tom, I'll answer this on the aeroelectric list because I don't know where else you might have posted or are expecting a response. Do not use that tubing cutter. Aside from the problems that you have already noted above it will work harden the aluminum and lead to cracking of the flare. Use a fine tooth hacksaw blade to cut the tube off as squarely as you can. Square it up further if needed / possible with a sanding disk. Then carefully debur the end inside and out. You have several choices for deburring, but since you are building an aluminum airplane I assume that you are close to an expert on the subject of deburring. Then use your flaring tool. Some times just a smidge of lubricant (I like Sealube) on the tool flaring cone is helpful. You should wind up with a smooth burnished interior to your flare. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? PS: There should be no sealant of any kind placed on the mating flare and cone surfaces when you assemble the fittings, as you are seeking a metal to metal seal, but a bit of Sealube on the threads will help keep the threads from galling. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual
buss > > >No vaccum system. Okay, are you planning perhaps to put an SD-8 alternator on an unused vacuum pump pad? If so, there's no real need for dual batteries. The all-electric-airplane on a budget architecture shown in figure Z-13 of the latest edition of the 'Connection will suffice. Get http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf if you don't already have it. Run one ignition from the main bus, the other from the battery bus and you'll have two independent feed paths to each ignition system from a well maintained battery supported by two alternators. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> >Bob (or others who tried this), > >I bought a pack of 6amps/50PIV diodes at Radio Shack >today. > >I'd like to know if I can join 2 or three of them in >parallel and use that to feed the essential bus from >the main bus (see picture >http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/dcp01400.jpg). > >If I load the bus with 15 amps, how hot will those >diodes get? Will that be reliable? > >Thanks (again!) You can't parallel diodes like this. Get the diode assembly from Radio Shack that looks like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25 or order it from B&C. The pictures tell you how to wire it. This is a diode that can hendle that kind of current and has been designed to heat sink to a mounting surface. What are you putting on the e-bus that boosts the loads to 15 amps? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Mac CAD info
> > > and try it. > > > > http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG > > > > If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then > > it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection > > with non-self-extracting .zip files. > > > > Bob . . . > > > >You are correct that the self-extracting .exe won't run on a Mac, but >Stuffit Expander (the most common free Mac file decompression >utility) is smart enough to extract the compressed files and expand >them. All you have to do is drag the .exe file to the Stuffit >Expander icon, and let it do its magic. The problem is that I can't >find a cheap Mac program that can read .dwg files. How about this. An ol' junker of a Dos machine with Win3.11 will run Intellicad or AutoCADLTv1.0 and probably a number of other freebe AutoCAD compatible programs. You can probably put together a Dos system complete with software cheaper than you can buy software that will run on the Mac . . . Boeing surplus here in Wichita is selling 133 Mhz CPU's with Win95 on them for $60. These would make an excellent CAD machine for doing your drawings. Check around for used/surplus computer stores or on Ebay . . . you can do this dirt cheap. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Subject: Looking for 2-8 switch
Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it. Bob: I was originally using your 2-5 switches as shown on Z-11. However, the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting power to that unit during engine start. The way I would like to do this is with a 2-8 switch and two 2-3s for the magneto/start interlock system. I have not been able to locate a 2-8 of comparable quality to the S700 series that you stock. I would appreciate it if you could locate one or suggest a source other than Digi-Key or Mouser. Thanks again. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2002
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: potting material
I have a circuit board with about 2 dozen components that I would like to harden against vibration. I have seen some use the epoxy putty sold in auto stores to fill in and cover the components. Is there any down side to this method, or is there a better substance? Would the Shoe Goo you recommend for connectors make a good potting compound in this case? I don't practically have a way to do surface mount and there is no rf stuff in the circuit, and I can't see where heat dissipation is a problem for any of it. If something fails later, I can just make another unit. Gary Liming ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
Subject: Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual
buss
Date: Feb 19, 2002
Hi Jerry, I can't say that I understand the entire schematic that Jeff Rose envisions, I do understand the idea of it. The two batteries are connected through the on-off toggle sw. Normally the switch would be closed thus connecting the two batteries to the alternator. However, when you want to check the voltage of each battery, you would open this switch momentarily and connect each one at a time to a voltmeter. Another reason to do this is if the alternator dies, shorts out, etc., you can protect your alternate battery. Also, if you are using the Skytech starter, you want to power the starter with one battery and the E.I.'s with the other to prevent kickback. There may be other reasons as well but this is all I've thought of at the moment. Rick Fogerson ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerry(at)tr2.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual buss > > Richard D. Fogerson wrote: > > > > > > I'm not sure what you mean but if you mean, what is the use of two batteries > > if one is dead, you have one that isn't and it will run your E.I.(s), > > alternator, starter, etc.??? > *** The original post said that only one battery is connected to the > alternator. Therefor, the other battery (that is not connected to the > alternator ) is always dead. Why carry it? I'm sure there's something > I'm missing here.... > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tin.it>
Subject: Tube flaring
May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy. Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same? What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard working? Thanks. John Herminghaus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> > You can't parallel diodes like this. Thanks! > Get the > diode assembly from Radio Shack that looks like > this: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25 I bought one. They call it a "Full wave bridge" and it is part no 276-1185. However, on the back of the package, among other things, it specifies "Forward voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts" I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly? > This is a diode that can hendle that > kind > of current and has been designed to heat sink to > a > mounting surface. Do I need more than an aluminum surface? (I mean like a real heat sink) > What are you putting on the e-bus that boosts the > loads > to 15 amps? Probably nothing that will load 15amp in real life... but when you add the fuse specs., it goes up fast. I want my plane qualified for night vfr. around a controled airport. So, on the ess bus, I'm thinking about: radio, transponder, navaid, panel light, flood light, emergency fuel pump. (I may forget something, but these are the main components) Thanks again! Michel ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://sports.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for 2-8 switch
> > > > Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for > magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag > as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but > the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is > certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock > but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it. > >Bob: I was originally using your 2-5 switches as shown on Z-11. However, >the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting power >to that unit during engine start. The way I would like to do this is with a >2-8 switch and two 2-3s for the magneto/start interlock system. I have not >been able to locate a 2-8 of comparable quality to the S700 series that you >stock. I would appreciate it if you could locate one or suggest a source >other than Digi-Key or Mouser. Thanks again. Have to talked to the manufacturer to find out what stresses give him cause for concern? I have talked to perhaps a dozen engineers of various electronics widgets for airplanes wherein their instructions "strongly recommended disconnect during engine starting". To date, not one individual could identify either the source or magnitude of any stress that might threaten their product. These words have appeared in the installation of various products since the late 60's when (in our profound ignorance of how solid state electronics really works) the better safe-than-sorry-approach to training owner/pilots prevailed over good engineering understanding. Who makes your vulnerable system? Let me call them and get a clarification of the need for their installation philosophy. If they have a VALID concern, they they've not done their homework in designing a product to live in an airplane (it's really easy to do). If their concerns are imaginary then it won't be hard to find out. Our duty as responsible consumers is to understand the physics and to make sure they KNOW we understand it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
Date: Feb 20, 2002
Michel Therrien wrote: > package, among other things, it specifies "Forward > voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts" > > I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt > drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly? > *** Yup. 1.7 is two diode drops. In the normal application of a full wave bridge, there are always two diodes in series with the output of the transformer ( that the full wave bridge was designed to rectify ). In this application, only one of the diodes is used, so the voltage drop is half of 1.7, or .85. This is still somewhat higher than .6. Reason is that diodes really do NOT have a 0.6 volt drop: that's just a "nominal" ( in name ) value. In reality, if you apply increased current through a diode, the voltage across it will also increase, although not linearly, like a resistor. The full wave bridge is a very nice, easy to mount package - so what if you don't use three of the diodes. If the RS one is not beefy enough for your taste, you can get bigger ones. I've seen them rated up to 50 amps. I haven't done the experiment, but I suspect that an aluminum airframe makes a GREAT heat sink. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: potting material
> > >I have a circuit board with about 2 dozen components that I would like to >harden against vibration. I have seen some use the epoxy putty sold in >auto stores to fill in and cover the components. Is there any down side to >this method, or is there a better substance? Would the Shoe Goo you >recommend for connectors make a good potting compound in this case? > >I don't practically have a way to do surface mount and there is no rf stuff >in the circuit, and I can't see where heat dissipation is a problem for any >of it. If something fails later, I can just make another unit. > >Gary Liming Just paint the components with Shoo Goo (also sold as industrial adhesive E-6000 in Hobby Lobby). Lean adjacent components toward each other so that they become bonded to each other with the adhesive (this turns two, two-legged devices into one four-legged device). It doesn't take much to stabilize small components. Non-acidic RTV is good too but hard to find. Both uckum-yukies take some time to set in deep section . . . I've come to prefer the Shoo-Goo . . . it sets up nicely overnight if kept warm. I've moved away from epoxies . . . they are rigid and may not perform as well with respect to effects of hydrocarbon fumes, ozone, etc. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FlyV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2002
Subject: Re: Tube flaring
In a message dated 2/20/2002 3:33:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, catignano(at)tin.it writes: << May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy. Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same? What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard working? >> Most aluminum tubing is made out of 5052-0 dead soft aluminum. I've flared lots of tubes and cut them off with a standard tubing cutter and had no problems provided you carefully ream the inside and remove the burrs. I also file the end of the tube flat with a fine file which seems to make a better flare. A little cold working of the soft aluminum is not going to hurt it or make it brittle. In fact it probably is beneficial in that it will increase the strength of the flare. You can cut the tube with a hacksaw but you better file it square and flat on the end and deburr it before you flare it. The comment on a previous email that "that you cannot single flare a steel tube because it will crack" is false. I've flared many many industrial seemless steel tubes and never had a problem and even on the few stainless steel tubes I've done for aircraft. Cliff A&P/IA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Tube flaring
Date: Feb 20, 2002
John F. Herminghaus wrote: > > > May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy. > > Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same? > What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard > working? *** How about a Dremel with a cutoff wheel? Best of all worlds. No hard working, nice sharp cut. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> > > > > You can't parallel diodes like this. > >Thanks! > > > Get the > > diode assembly from Radio Shack that looks like > > this: > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25 > >I bought one. They call it a "Full wave bridge" and >it is part no 276-1185. However, on the back of the >package, among other things, it specifies "Forward >voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts" thats a MAX rating under conditions that you'll never see. >I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt >drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly? Yes . . . >Probably nothing that will load 15amp in real life... >but when you add the fuse specs., it goes up fast. I suggest you never add up fuse values to determine anything about loads . . . many folk have sized alternators based upon this technique and ended up with a MUCH too big/heavy/expensive machine. I >want my plane qualified for night vfr. around a >controled airport. So, on the ess bus, I'm thinking >about: radio, transponder, navaid, panel light, flood >light, emergency fuel pump. (I may forget something, >but these are the main components) Your max-endurance, alternator-out e-bus loads should be on the order of 4A or less. Running loads when the alternator is working can obviously be much higher, peak loads (during transmit) can be higher still . . . just make sure that all goodies not needed for continued comfortable flight to intended destination can be turned OFF if the alternator barfs. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mprather(at)spro.net
Subject: Re: Tube flaring
Date: Feb 20, 2002
I believe that work hardening comes from bending the material. Tubing cutters do end up bending the material inward and in so doing cause a small amount of work hardening. I can't see how a hacksaw would cause work hardening. Doesn't it work by essentially wearing a slotted hole in the material on its teeth? I can see some hardening happening if you cut quickly and by so doing heating the metal. Even then unless you quenched the material, it doesn't seem like you would cause much hardening. I think making a slow cut with a fine hacksaw holds the best prospect for changing the material the least. Maybe I don't really understand how a hacksaw works (seriously) though! :) Maybe it would be possible to design a shear that would cut tubing without distorting or using any friction on it. It would allow you to save the blade curf too! Matt- ----- Original Message ----- From: jerry(at)tr2.com Date: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:08 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tube flaring > > John F. Herminghaus wrote: > > > > > > May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw > contreversy.> > > Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same? > > What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard > > working? > > *** How about a Dremel with a cutoff wheel? Best of all worlds. > No hard > working, nice sharp cut. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > > > _- > - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > !! NEW !! > _- > List Related Information > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Navaid (was: Looking for 2-8 switch )
the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting power to that unit during engine start. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff Speaking of which, I had a little problem when I was mocking up my Navaid autopilot installation. It doesn't like low voltages. I'm using and old car battery for power and the Navaid came up showing about 2 to 3 bars of right turn whenever I engaged the servo. I called the company and spoke to Richard about it. He said that the guy who designed it (and later sold the company), set it up to regulate internally at 11 volts and that it needs some voltage headroom. These things won't operate reliably at 12 volts so if you lose your alternator, you lose your autopilot (and possibly your primary turn coordinator as well). It runs fine with a battery charger hooked up to the battery. I'm going to be running all electric and dual lightspeeds, so this is kinda pushing me over the top to run a backup alternator as well. I've just got to decide if I'm going to run 2 batteries also. They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to. Ed Holyoke RV-6 = = = http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2002
Subject: Re: Engine Monitor ? (was: Looking for 2-8 switch )
In a message dated 2/20/02 6:05:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, czechsix(at)juno.com writes: << Harry, what engine monitor are you using? >> Grand Rapids EIS 4000. BTW, the folks at Grand Rapids don't call the EIS power interruption during start a critical requirement, but rather a good idea. Having personally experienced some rather loud and destructive effects of electric motor start up and shut down transients years ago back in my early rocket testing days I am still sensitive to those kinds of issues and so choose to go the extra mile. No reflection on "Lectric Bob's" no doubt correct advice that this is no longer necessary with modern electronic devices. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> >Michel Therrien wrote: > > package, among other things, it specifies "Forward > > voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts" > > > > I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt > > drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly? > > >*** Yup. 1.7 is two diode drops. In the normal application >of a full wave bridge, there are always two diodes in series >with the output of the transformer ( that the full wave bridge >was designed to rectify ). > > In this application, only one of the diodes is used, so >the voltage drop is half of 1.7, or .85. This is still somewhat >higher than .6. Reason is that diodes really do NOT have a 0.6 volt >drop: that's just a "nominal" ( in name ) value. In reality, if you >apply increased current through a diode, the voltage across it will >also increase, although not linearly, like a resistor. > > The full wave bridge is a very nice, easy to mount package - so what if >you don't use three of the diodes. If the RS one is not beefy enough >for your taste, you can get bigger ones. I've seen them rated up to >50 amps. > > I haven't done the experiment, but I suspect that an aluminum airframe >makes a GREAT heat sink. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) You can add a bit of thermal grease (also available at Radio Shack) and get even better thermal contact/dispersal. scot ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HCRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2002
Subject: NO need for power interruption for EIS (was need 2-8
switch,etc) O.K. everybody, including "Lectric Bob", I am WRONG. The Grand Rapids EIS system no longer has any requirement to take power off before engine start. That was true of their original design and I picked it up from an older installation manual. IT IS NO LONGER REQUIRED. I called them this morning, unfortunately after blabbing to this list the name of the manufacturer, and learned that their EIS 2000, 4000 and 6000 systems no longer have this requirement. In fact they now suggest turning the EIS on before startup. My sincere apologies to everyone, especially Grand Rapids folks. I will now crawl back into my hole and simplify my wiring diagram. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, finish kit stuff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Tube flaring
Date: Feb 20, 2002
Golly, Never gave it much thought before. The advantage of the wheel cutter is the square cut. If the wheel is a high quality and sharp, then the work hardening issue is probably remote. You still should deburr the inside with a sharp countersink and use a drop of oil on the flaring tool. A fine toothed hacksaw can be used. Less deburring but are more likely to need squaring with a smooth cut file. I like a bandsaw myself but have used all three. Don't overflare and don't forget the backup farrell and flare nut when doing the second flare. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tin.it> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tube flaring May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy. Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same? What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard working? Thanks. John Herminghaus http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: NO need for power interruption for EIS (was need
2-8 switch,etc) ah! You just made me more nervous as I have the EIS Advanced (not a x000) unit. So, I called to know how to determine if we have an "old" unit. So here it is: If your unit has 2 9-pin connectors on the back, it is an "old" unit. The one I have has one DB25 connector, so I'm OK... I can fire all four cylinders and the two ignitions with the switch turned on :-) Michel --- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote: > HCRV6(at)aol.com > > O.K. everybody, including "Lectric Bob", I am WRONG. > The Grand Rapids EIS > system no longer has any requirement to take power > off before engine start. > That was true of their original design and I picked > it up from an older > installation manual. IT IS NO LONGER REQUIRED. I > called them this morning, > unfortunately after blabbing to this list the name > of the manufacturer, and > learned that their EIS 2000, 4000 and 6000 systems > no longer have this > requirement. In fact they now suggest turning the > EIS on before startup. My > sincere apologies to everyone, especially Grand > Rapids folks. I will now > crawl back into my hole and simplify my wiring > diagram. > > Harry Crosby > Pleasanton, California > RV-6, finish kit stuff > > > > Forum - > Contributions of > any other form > > latest messages. > other List members. > > aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > http://www.matronics.com/search > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://sports.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Low Voltage Warning
Bob, I have two related questions. 1. I plan to use the B & C Alternator Controller with a B & C alternator. Does the lamp attached to pin 5 indicate OV or low voltage? If it indicates OV, is there a provision for indicating low voltage? [that's 2 questions in 1] 2. If the controller does not provide for low voltage warning, then I refer to your 9021-610 "Schmatic Diagram - Low Voltage Warning". Is there a convenient way to add a "test" switch to check for functioning of the LED when the voltage is normal? Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Tube flaring
Date: Feb 20, 2002
I used a little circular roller type tubing cutter, and then slightly deburred the inside edge. Get the good aircraft tubing flaring tool Cy recommended, and the real key is to use oil. I see no reason to use a saw, as the cut edge gets stretched beyond recognition anyway. On a related note, regarding bending up the tubes.... buy lots of extra tubing (it is cheap), and if you don't like a tube you've just made, chuck it and remake it. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A N66AP flying 91 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Al & Deb Paxhia" <paxhia2(at)attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Navaid
Date: Feb 20, 2002
Ed, I don't know if the Navaid needs to powered off at start but I have installed a switch that powers the Navaid, rudder and elevator trim servos. If any of those servos has a runaway problem one switch kills them all. Al SR3500(finishing up details) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Navaid (was: Looking for 2-8 switch ) > > > > the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting > power > to that unit during engine start. > > > > Harry Crosby > Pleasanton, California > RV-6, finish kit stuff > > Speaking of which, I had a little problem when I was mocking up my > Navaid autopilot installation. It doesn't like low voltages. I'm using > and old car battery for power and the Navaid came up showing about 2 to > 3 bars of right turn whenever I engaged the servo. I called the company > and spoke to Richard about it. He said that the guy who designed it (and > later sold the company), set it up to regulate internally at 11 volts > and that it needs some voltage headroom. These things won't operate > reliably at 12 volts so if you lose your alternator, you lose your > autopilot (and possibly your primary turn coordinator as well). It runs > fine with a battery charger hooked up to the battery. I'm going to be > running all electric and dual lightspeeds, so this is kinda pushing me > over the top to run a backup alternator as well. I've just got to decide > if I'm going to run 2 batteries also. > > They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I > forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid > unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another > item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to. > > Ed Holyoke > RV-6 > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: NO need for power interruption for EIS (was need
2-8 switch,etc) > >O.K. everybody, including "Lectric Bob", I am WRONG. The Grand Rapids EIS >system no longer has any requirement to take power off before engine start. >That was true of their original design and I picked it up from an older >installation manual. IT IS NO LONGER REQUIRED. I called them this morning, >unfortunately after blabbing to this list the name of the manufacturer, and >learned that their EIS 2000, 4000 and 6000 systems no longer have this >requirement. In fact they now suggest turning the EIS on before startup. My >sincere apologies to everyone, especially Grand Rapids folks. I will now >crawl back into my hole and simplify my wiring diagram. Not a problem . . . the PURPOSE of this list is to identify, confirm and share good information. It's not a sin to be skeptical - you will either confirm what's good, exposed what's not so good and sometimes discover something better . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Monitor ? (was: Looking for 2-8 switch )
> . . . Having personally experienced some rather loud and destructive > effects >of electric motor start up and shut down transients years ago back in my >early rocket testing days I am still sensitive to those kinds of issues and >so choose to go the extra mile. No reflection on "Lectric Bob's" no doubt >correct advice that this is no longer necessary with modern electronic >devices. A minor correction . . . this SHOULD NOT be necessary IF the manufacturer has taken simple steps in the design and qualification of their product. I am primed to be skeptical of off-hand advice that somebody may well have thrown into the instruction manual simply because "that's what we've always done . . . and gee, it doesn't HURT anything . . . does it? My wish is that we become both educated and insistent consumers. Yes, we can always accommodate the idiosyncrasies of someone's products IF we're willing to accept shortcomings in trade for some perceived benefit. However, we KNOW that robust design for vehicular DC systems is virtual child's play. There's strong incentive to get to the source of such information to (1) see if it's really true and/or (2) tweak the manufacturer's nose a bit for not doing his homework . . . after all it's YOUR money he wants you to spend on his product. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: RE: Navaid (wouldn't pass DO-160 brown out at 10.5v)
>Speaking of which, I had a little problem when I was mocking up my >Navaid autopilot installation. It doesn't like low voltages. I'm using >and old car battery for power and the Navaid came up showing about 2 to >3 bars of right turn whenever I engaged the servo. I called the company >and spoke to Richard about it. He said that the guy who designed it (and >later sold the company), set it up to regulate internally at 11 volts >and that it needs some voltage headroom. These things won't operate >reliably at 12 volts so if you lose your alternator, you lose your >autopilot (and possibly your primary turn coordinator as well). Which nicely illustrates my point in an adjacent post. Here we are made aware of and understand the limitations of a particular product. We can choose to accept the product because it does what we want at an acceptable price. Further, knowing its limitations, we can now plan to accommodate its shortcomings during an alternator-out situation . . . here's a strong selling point for a second alternator - even if it's the itty-bitty feller from B&C . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual
buss > > >Hi Jerry, >I can't say that I understand the entire schematic that Jeff Rose envisions, >I do understand the idea of it. The two batteries are connected through the >on-off toggle sw. Normally the switch would be closed thus connecting the >two batteries to the alternator. However, when you want to check the voltage >of each battery, you would open this switch momentarily and connect each one >at a time to a voltmeter. Another reason to do this is if the alternator >dies, shorts out, etc., you can protect your alternate battery. Also, if >you are using the Skytech starter, you want to power the starter with one >battery and the E.I.'s with the other to prevent kickback. There may be >other reasons as well but this is all I've thought of at the moment. This is a classic system integration problem where one has to balance all of the components against each other. If you have a PM motor starter (very high inrush currents compared to wound field) -AND- the battery is getting soggy, the bus voltage may sag to levels unacceptable to the ignition during starting. If you want to avoid dual battery complexity and weight, perhaps a B&C starter would be a good alternative. If the PM starter is your choice, then perhaps a second battery is in order. Figure Z-30 in http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev9/ch10-9.pdf shows how to add a second battery to ANY system. If the need for a second battery is just to accommodate a greedy starter, then the aux battery could be quite small . . . say 2 to 4 ampere hours and the aux battery contactor could be a heavy duty relay like our S704-1. Here the only thing the aux battery is expected to do is keep one ignition alive with good supply voltage while the main battery gets the engine running. After the engine is running, you can still enjoy the relatively light weight and simple system operation of the all electric airplane on a budget (Figure Z-13) and the size of the aux battery is immaterial to overall system performance. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
Date: Feb 20, 2002
> Thanks to all who responded for the diode question There is a simple way to eliminate the voltage drop when driving the essential bus only. It requires that the essential bus and "radio" bus be one in the same (i.e., a radio master switch turns on the same bus as the alternate feed switch). It is a little tough to explain without a drawing, but here goes. Ignoring fuses in this discussion, a line goes from the main (run by the relay) bus to a "radio master" switch, then to the essential (radio) bus. Another line comes from the battery (always hot) bus to an "alternate feed" switch, and then to the same essential (radio) bus. The trick with the diode is to put it across the "radio master" switch with the proper polarity. The diode doesn't "feed" anything this way, it simply prevents the juice coming through the "alternate feed" switch from back powering the main bus. The loss of alternator procedure would be: 1. close the "alternate feed" switch, 2. open the "radio master" switch, 3. turn off the master switch controlling the relay. The "alternate feed" and "radio master" switches would preferably be a double pole, three position switch, although mine are two separate, single pole double throw switches. There is no power interuption to the essential bus when switching as in the above. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A N66AP flying 91 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Warning
> >Bob, >I have two related questions. > >1. I plan to use the B & C Alternator Controller with a B & C >alternator. Does the lamp attached to pin 5 indicate OV or low voltage? >If it indicates OV, is there a provision for indicating low voltage? >[that's 2 questions in 1] The lamp will flash any time the bus voltage drops BELOW 13.0 volts. If you have OV protection, you don't need an indicator specific to an OV problem . . . within milliseconds of OV onset, the system is shut down and the LV light begins to flash a few seconds later. >2. If the controller does not provide for low voltage warning, then I >refer to your 9021-610 "Schmatic Diagram - Low Voltage Warning". Is >there a convenient way to add a "test" switch to check for functioning >of the LED when the voltage is normal? Sure, just shut the alternator off. It doesn't hurt to do this in flight but it shouldn't be necessary either. The light will begin to flash as soon as you turn the master on and before the engine is started. This provides for automatic preflight testing of the circuit when the light goes out after the alternator comes on line. But if you have a B&C controller, you don't need the critter in 9021-610. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Proper alum. tube flare cuts
Date: Feb 21, 2002
Cliff: "Most aluminum tubing is made out of 5052-0 dead soft aluminum. I've flared lots of tubes and cut them off with a standard tubing cutter and had no problems provided you carefully ream the inside and remove the burrs. I also file the end of the tube flat with a fine file which seems to make a better flare. A little cold working of the soft aluminum is not going to hurt it or make it brittle. In fact it probably is beneficial in that it will increase the strength of the flare." Why would filing it flat make a difference? The end surface faces up and outward from the flare surface and the cutter makes certain the end is square whereas the file might easily distort the cut. I use a RIDGID rolling-cone model. It seems to flare the end particularly accurately so I don't worry if it's outside the flare. Am I wrong? "You can cut the tube with a hacksaw but you better file it square and flat on the end and deburr it before you flare it." Perhaps it would take extraordinary care to clean EVERY filing mote out of the flare area to prevent distortion, plus a crooked cut would reduce flare area on the short side. Regards, Ferg diesel Europa A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Warning
Bob, Thanks for the response. One further question about the LV lamp with the controller. Can I replace the incandescent lamp with an LED with appropriate current limiting series resistor? RHDudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > >Bob, > >I have two related questions. > > > >1. I plan to use the B & C Alternator Controller with a B & C > >alternator. Does the lamp attached to pin 5 indicate OV or low voltage? > >If it indicates OV, is there a provision for indicating low voltage? > >[that's 2 questions in 1] > > The lamp will flash any time the bus voltage drops BELOW 13.0 volts. > If you have OV protection, you don't need an indicator specific to > an OV problem . . . within milliseconds of OV onset, the system is > shut down and the LV light begins to flash a few seconds later. > > >2. If the controller does not provide for low voltage warning, then I > >refer to your 9021-610 "Schmatic Diagram - Low Voltage Warning". Is > >there a convenient way to add a "test" switch to check for functioning > >of the LED when the voltage is normal? > > Sure, just shut the alternator off. It doesn't hurt to do this in > flight but it shouldn't be necessary either. The light will begin > to flash as soon as you turn the master on and before the engine > is started. This provides for automatic preflight testing of the > circuit when the light goes out after the alternator comes on line. > But if you have a B&C controller, you don't need the critter in > 9021-610. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 02/20/02
Date: Feb 21, 2002
> > Further, knowing its limitations, we can now plan to accommodate > its shortcomings during an alternator-out situation . . . here's > a strong selling point for a second alternator - even if it's > the itty-bitty feller from B&C . . . Time for me to display more ignorance... Doesn't a second alternator consume the place usually reserved for the vacuum pump? There seems to be significant concern over alternator failure. I've never personally encountered this, but I'm only a 300-hour pilot. Do modern alternators really fail that often that we're SO concerned about it? If it's once every 5000 hours, can't we just plan a proper essential buss with one nav/com, the landing lights, and our other true essentials -- then plan to land asap if the alternator goes? I don't think very many of us are planning hard-IFR airplanes. How much redundancy do we wisely plan for -- knowing that's now TWO alternators that have a chance to fail, plus the extra weight and system complexity, etc.... -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> > > > Thanks to all who responded for the diode question > >There is a simple way to eliminate the voltage drop when driving the >essential bus only. It requires that the essential bus and "radio" bus be >one in the same (i.e., a radio master switch turns on the same bus as the >alternate feed switch). There are specific reasons for using a diode instead of a hard switch or relay contact to effect the normal feedpath between the main and essential busses. Further, a "voltage drop" on the order of .6 to .7 volts is not significant with respect to operation of equipment on the e-bus. Consider that the alternate feedpath to the e-bus is there to provide 10.5 to 12.5 volts to the equipment when the alternator is down . . . 10.5 to 12.5 is all you're going to get out of a battery but we reasonably expect equipment on the bus to function in a useful manner. When the alternator is working, the main bus is 13.8 to 14.6 volts . . . throw away 0.7 volts in the e-bus normal feed diode and you have 13.1 to 13.9 volts on the e-bus. Quit a bit higher than with battery-only operations. Bottom line is that the diode drop affects performance in no way that anyone would notice. > It is a little tough to explain without a drawing, >but here goes. Ignoring fuses in this discussion, a line goes from the main >(run by the relay) bus to a "radio master" switch, then to the essential >(radio) bus. Another line comes from the battery (always hot) bus to an >"alternate feed" switch, and then to the same essential (radio) bus. The >trick with the diode is to put it across the "radio master" switch with the >proper polarity. The diode doesn't "feed" anything this way, it simply >prevents the juice coming through the "alternate feed" switch from back >powering the main bus. The loss of alternator procedure would be: 1. close >the "alternate feed" switch, 2. open the "radio master" switch, 3. turn off >the master switch controlling the relay. The "alternate feed" and "radio >master" switches would preferably be a double pole, three position switch, >although mine are two separate, single pole double throw switches. There is >no power interuption to the essential bus when switching as in the above. This architecture requires the pilot to operate switches in a specific sequence to avoid overloading the e-bus alternate feed path because the normal feed path switch was still closed. The diode eliminates possibility for error and eliminates one switch from the panel. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Bus - variations on a theme
> > >Dear Listers, > >While the notion of a battery buss, or in my case, dual battery busses is >a fine way of having non-switchable power to some devices, does anyone >have any thoughts about this (simpler) idea? > >I'm thinking of simply hardwiring my electronic ignitions to the hot side >of their respective battery contactors, with circuit protection provided >by fusible links. In the words of E.B. "Lower parts count = higher >reliability". > >What say you folks out there? Not sure you gain much here. Recall that EVERY device required for comfortable completion of flight needs a backup. It's only necessary to make sure that no single failure takes down both systems. In speaking of "single failure" we're talking about faults that have a high order of probability. For example, you don't have a spare wing spar or a dual crankshaft because we've learned how to size and fabricate these components so that likelihood of failure is extremely remote. So, when you have only one battery in the airplane (even with two alternators) we're concerned with making connection with the battery in a manner that has a very low order of failure rate . . . nice, lightly stressed jumper wires connected with fat bolts that are not over or under torqued. We're also going to maintain the battery so that it's internal workings are dependable as well. We'll take equal care in the installation and maintenance of wiring to the battery bus. This philosophy offers very high orders of system reliability. In the all-electric-airplane-on-a-budget, a dual electronic ignition system would want to run one system from the main bus and the other from the battery bus so that the only common wiring to the battery for both systems are the the robust components cited above. If you have one alternator, then I'd install a second battery and run ignitions from separate battery busses . . . The aux battery can be (1) same size as main battery and share in cranking duties or (2) smaller critter used only to support the second ignition system during alternator-out operations. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Warning (LED with LR3B-14 controller)
> >Bob, > >Thanks for the response. >One further question about the LV lamp with the controller. Can I >replace the incandescent lamp with an LED with appropriate current >limiting series resistor? That question popped up here a couple of days ago: warning pin on LR3B-14 Dear Bob, I'm using the LR3B-14 in my Lancair ES, and am having a bit of trouble getting the OV warning function to work. Instead of using an incandescent bulb on the panel, I'm using pin 5 of the LR3B as an input to a warning light panel of my own design. The warning light panel uses opto-isolators as the front end, and can be jumper-configured for either active (on) high, or active low. The total current through the front end is approx. 6.5mA per channel. I set up my voltage warning as active low, assuming that pin 5 would be pulled low when the voltage is out of the window. My warning light, however, stays on all the time. I've traced the wiring, and it seems correct; also, the other 9 warning lights function as intended. Can you see any reason why this shouldn't work? I'm guessing that pin 5 is an open-collector type output, since it sinks current from the lamp in the usual schematic shown by B&C. Is it possible that some small current flows into pin 5 all the time? This might not make an incandescent lamp light, but may be enough to trigger my warning light panel. Just guessin there. Jim, It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should illuminate IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the output transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp. Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp) and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage" resistor inside. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 02/20/02
> > > > > > Further, knowing its limitations, we can now plan to accommodate > > its shortcomings during an alternator-out situation . . . here's > > a strong selling point for a second alternator - even if it's > > the itty-bitty feller from B&C . . . > >Time for me to display more ignorance... Doesn't a second alternator consume >the place usually reserved for the vacuum pump? You betcha . . . vacuum systems suck both literally and figuratively . . . When you get rid of a vacuum pump you KNOW is going to fail and replace it with an alternator that has no slip-rings or brushes, one moving part and a track record of very long trouble free service, you now have an opportunity to get pounds/hours of plumbing installation out of the airplane and do it all with wires. See: http://209.134.106.21/articles/allelect.pdf >There seems to be significant concern over alternator failure. I've never >personally >encountered this, but I'm only a 300-hour pilot. Do modern alternators really >fail >that often that we're SO concerned about it? If it's once every 5000 hours, >can't >we just plan a proper essential buss with one nav/com, the landing lights, and >our other true essentials -- then plan to land asap if the alternator goes? Alternators on most certified airplanes are demonstrated junk. Just check the service difficulty reports on single engine aircraft on FAA website. A modern Nipon-Denso alternator on an aircraft engine may well run through several lifetimes of the engine. B&C's rate of return on their ND alternators for over 2,000 sold and 10+ years of service has been under 10% for the FLEET and none have been returned for wearout or failure. Virtually all repairs were for accidental or customer induced damage. Why land ASAP? Why would you design an electrical system with any less endurance that fuel aboard? >I don't think very many of us are planning hard-IFR airplanes. How much >redundancy >do we wisely plan for -- knowing that's now TWO alternators that have a chance >to >fail, plus the extra weight and system complexity, etc.... The two alternators cited in the article above are much simpler in total parts count than an electric/vacuum combination and when using modern hardware, many times more reliable. Most failures you'll experience will not be from failure of the alternator but some component associated with the alternator that may take it off line. The whole thrust of this architecture is less weight, install time, easier maintenance and increased reliability. Further, while the installed cost may be higher due to electric gyros (this will change as the solid state replacements become more common) the cost of ownership will be less. Doesn't matter if you plan to fly hard IFR or not. If you have the equipment in your airplane, you're generally motivated to keep it all working else why would you have installed it in the first place? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Diesel electrics (long)
Date: Feb 21, 2002
No not locomotives. These thoughts are perhaps of interest to Fergus, though other opinions are welcome. I have been thinking about an electrical architecture for an airplane with a Wilksch diesel engine. Once running this engine is essentially "electricity free", i.e. it requires no ignition or FADEC and can be fitted with a hydraulic CS prop. It does have electronic instrumentation, but a mechanical fuel pressure gauge and thermocouple CHT are recommended to provide minimal backup independent of ship's electrics. An electric fuel pump is a backup, but the engine will normally run without it. Starting however is electrically demmanding. The glow plugs draw 10 amps per cylinder. These must be energised for a short while before cranking as well as simultaneously with cranking. Starting current may exceed 220 amps. Conventionally you would have a heavy duty battery master contactor connecting the battery to the main bus. From this contactor a fat cable runs to the starter motor at the front of the engine which has an internal contactor to control cranking. You also need a relay rated at about 40 amps to control the glow plugs. If this is mounted on the firewall it would also be connected to the bus side of the battery master contactor. So I need a big contactor and a 40 amp relay. Now for some lateral thinking. Suppose I reverse the roles of these two components. The connection from the big contactor to the starter motor remains as before but now the glow plugs are wired directly from the starter motor feed so that they are energised when the big contactor is energised. The big contactor now becomes a "start master". Its function to control the glow plugs and to provide the required secondary means of de energising the starter motor if the internal contactor should stick. It would be controlled by a positive line from a momentary "start power" toggle switch positioned about an inch below the starter button so you could hold this switch up whilst pressing the starter with your thumb. I would not use a key switch since that would compromise the independence of the two circuits that control power to the starter motor. The 40 amp relay then becomes the battery master feeding the main bus and connects to the battery side of the big contactor. This relay does not have to carry starting current and as I am planning a day VFR airplane without landing or nav lights (no big inrush loads) I don't really need a big contactor to feed the main bus. The alternator is only rated at 28 amps. I think this has several advantages: The big contactor only has to serve intermittent duty. The cable to the starter motor is not live during flight, reducing the risk if it should chaff and short. The battery master relay draws little hold in current. (though the e bus architecture also circumvents this issue) It is possible to position the battery ammeter shunt where it will not carry the starter and glow plug loads, but will register all bus loads including the e bus alternate feed. About the only down side I can think of is that if the big contactor sticks on the glow plugs remain energised until the battery is disconnected. However this fault is only likely to occur on the ground and there will be a glow energised warning. It is not dangerous (compared to a stuck starter motor). Not sure I've thought this through completely though......... Piers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: Kent/Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Subject: LEDs in fuel
Uncle Bob, You've probably seen the rock-simple fuel guage in Long-Ezes: a slick area in side of the fiberglass where the fuel level shows through. If you were drill a small hole in the bottom of the gauge (bottom of the tank) and pot in an LED, do you think that would be safe? The LED would be bathed in fuel, but they don't get hot, as I recall. Any idea what material the clear LED material is made of or whether it would be fuel resistant? The idea would be to add more contrast to the fuel level for higher visibility, or for night flying. Thanks, I've gotten a lot out of your book for homebuilders. --Kent Ashton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
Date: Feb 21, 2002
> This architecture requires the pilot to operate switches in a specific > sequence to avoid overloading the e-bus alternate feed path because > the normal feed path switch was still closed. The diode eliminates > possibility for error and eliminates one switch from the panel. Only if they are two separate switches - a three position (up for normal, down for alternate) would eliminate the sequence requirement. One must still remember to turn off the master in either case. Perhaps the best would be a three position master, with up being normal, mid being everything off, and down being alternate feed through a diode. I don't like anything being on when down, but food for thought. Alex ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
Subject: Navaid
From: Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Harry Crosby wrote: > They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I > forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid > unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another > item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to. Bob, I just took dilivery of a Navaid for my Super Rebel and was suprised after reading your book to see the above "warning" in their manual. I would give them a call to see if it "is really true" but am way out of my league on this one. Would you consider a call on behalf of the list? Navaid Devices, Inc. 641 North Market Street Chattanooga, Tennessee 37405 (423) 267-3311 - Office (423) 756-6154 - Fax info@navaid-devices.com - email Don Boardman & Partner Randy Bowers SR130 Rome, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
Subject: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Not sure I follow you 100% Alex, but I think I get the idea......this got me thinking though....started scribbling schematics on a piece of paper today, and wondered why any diodes are needed at all?? Couldn't the diodes in 'Lectric Bob's schematics can't simply be replaced by a switch? To avoid having to add a separate switch and complicating things functionally in the cockpit, my thinking is that the "Essential" bus toggle switch on the panel could be a DPDT. There would be two separate paths going through the switch, both of them going to the Essential bus. One would be just like Bob's schematics, feeding directly from the battery to the Essential bus, and the other would simply replace the diodes in the schematic, feeding from the master solenoid main bus to the Essential bus. The DPDT switch would be wired such that in the "off" position, the path from the main bus to the Ess bus would be closed and the path directly from the battery would be open. In the "on" position, just the opposite....the path from the main bus would be open (preventing the Ess bus from feeding power back into the main bus just like the diodes, only without the voltage drop) and the path from the battery would be closed to feed the Ess bus. Does that make any sense??? Not trying to reinvent the wheel needlessly, just curious to know if there's a reason not to do it this way....I can't imagine the failure mode analysis would be much worse if any (granted both paths to the Ess bus now go through one switch, but since they go through separate contacts, both positions of the switch would have to fail to lose everything on that bus). On the plus side, you probly save a few cents, a few ounces, and a bit of time by eliminating the diodes.....and you could connect your voltmeter to the Ess bus and always read the correct voltage throughout the system without the diode drop. What am I missing? Bob?? (Happy to fax a schematic if my description makes no sense). --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A fitting canopy.... _______ From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ess Bus feed - Diodes > Thanks to all who responded for the diode question There is a simple way to eliminate the voltage drop when driving the essential bus only. It requires that the essential bus and "radio" bus be one in the same (i.e., a radio master switch turns on the same bus as the alternate feed switch). It is a little tough to explain without a drawing, but here goes. Ignoring fuses in this discussion, a line goes from the main (run by the relay) bus to a "radio master" switch, then to the essential (radio) bus. Another line comes from the battery (always hot) bus to an "alternate feed" switch, and then to the same essential (radio) bus. The trick with the diode is to put it across the "radio master" switch with the proper polarity. The diode doesn't "feed" anything this way, it simply prevents the juice coming through the "alternate feed" switch from back powering the main bus. The loss of alternator procedure would be: 1. close the "alternate feed" switch, 2. open the "radio master" switch, 3. turn off the master switch controlling the relay. The "alternate feed" and "radio master" switches would preferably be a double pole, three position switch, although mine are two separate, single pole double throw switches. There is no power interuption to the essential bus when switching as in the above. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A N66AP flying 91 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: LEDs in fuel
> > >Uncle Bob, > You've probably seen the rock-simple fuel guage in Long-Ezes: a slick > area in side of >the fiberglass where the fuel level shows through. > If you were drill a small hole in the bottom of the gauge (bottom of > the tank) and pot >in an LED, do you think that would be safe? The LED would be bathed in >fuel, but they don't >get hot, as I recall. > Any idea what material the clear LED material is made of or whether > it would be fuel >resistant? > The idea would be to add more contrast to the fuel level for higher > visibility, or for >night flying. Thanks, I've gotten a lot out of your book for homebuilders. An led or even a light bulb would be okay for this application. Not sure as to compatibility of LED material with respect to fuel. Get an LED from radio shack and put it into a small jar with some avgas and let it soak for awhile. I suspect it will be okay. There are some high intensity white LEDs avaialble now for about $3 each in small quantities. These are used in the Photon II series keychain flashlights . . . a lot of light for the power consumption and size. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> > > > This architecture requires the pilot to operate switches in a specific > > sequence to avoid overloading the e-bus alternate feed path because > > the normal feed path switch was still closed. The diode eliminates > > possibility for error and eliminates one switch from the panel. > > >Only if they are two separate switches - a three position (up for normal, >down for alternate) would eliminate the sequence requirement. One must >still remember to turn off the master in either case. Perhaps the best >would be a three position master, with up being normal, mid being everything >off, and down being alternate feed through a diode. I don't like anything >being on when down, but food for thought. What happens when the do-all switch breaks a spring? I've had some builders suggest a single pole three position switch for the e-bus . . . DWN = alt feed, MID = off and UP normal feed. Again, failure of single device kills the bus. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Navaid
> > Harry Crosby wrote: > > > They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I > > forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid > > unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another > > item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to. > >Bob, I just took dilivery of a Navaid for my Super Rebel and was suprised >after reading your book to see the above "warning" in their manual. > >I would give them a call to see if it "is really true" but am way out of my >league on this one. > >Would you consider a call on behalf of the list? I've written to them twice in the past year but received no response. I'll try calling them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "W T Bartlett" <wtbartlett(at)Prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Tube flaring
Date: Feb 21, 2002
Peculiar subject for an AeroElectrics. Back at the beginning of the Korean an uncle (hyd mech for Boeing 1942-1946) taught me to pass the trade test for Grand Central Aircraft, who were remanufacturing B29s. My uncle designed the trade test for Grand Central. I passed the trade test easily and worked for Grand Central , as a hyd mech, 'tll I got drafted a year later. The tubing part of the test consisted of installing two bulkhead AN fittings centered inside opposite sides of a 3" Al channel on 3" centers. We then had to cut, flare, bend, and put AN fittings on 1/4" Al tube and attach it to the bulkhead fittings on opposite interior sides of the channel. I learned to calculate the length of the tube, which I then cut with a tubing cutter, . The first end of the tube was then clamped in the flaring dies with the end extending just beyond the edge of the dies. the end was squared with a smooth-cut file by filing it down flush with the dies. I deburred the inside of the tube ends with the pointed deburring tube attached to the cutter, the outside was deburred with a smooth-cut file held at 45deg . Even cheap dies (obviously not aircraft type) are file hard and files won't cut them if the file is held flat. The deburred tube was replaced in the dies with the deburred end even with the outside of the dies, clamped and flared. The two thimbles and sleeves are slid on and the other end is squared,deburred and flared. Bill N7WB > > > Why wouldn't you use the tool DESIGNED for the job in the first place?? (the tubing cutter) It gives > a nice square cut, is extremely easy to accurately position, is quick and simple to use and WORKS. A > simple deburr with your swivel deburring tool and you are ready to flare. ( with your 37 degree > aircraft burnishing style flaring tool) Do not use an automotive 45 degree double flare, it WILL > fail. All your substitute tools, (hacksaw, dremel, axe, file etc.) leave the possibility of an out > of square cut or out of round tube. You don't rivet with an axe and an anvil, you don't tighten > screws with a chisel, you use the purpose built tools for those jobs so why wouldn't you use the > appropriate tools for properly preparing tube connections as well??????? > And - - - - as someone else suggested, how 'bout moving this discussion from the "electrical" forum > to one of the more general building forums???? although it's an aircraft topic it's a long way from > electrical. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2002
From: Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Navaid
It seems it should be turned off for startup, taxi and take off should you accidently start up with the switch in track mode and manage to take off. Mine is switched. Don Boardman wrote: > > Harry Crosby wrote: > > > They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I > > forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid > > unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another > > item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to. > > Bob, I just took dilivery of a Navaid for my Super Rebel and was suprised > after reading your book to see the above "warning" in their manual. > > I would give them a call to see if it "is really true" but am way out of my > league on this one. > > Would you consider a call on behalf of the list? > > Navaid Devices, Inc. > 641 North Market Street > Chattanooga, Tennessee 37405 > > (423) 267-3311 - Office > (423) 756-6154 - Fax > info@navaid-devices.com - email > > Don Boardman > & Partner > Randy Bowers > SR130 Rome, NY > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
Date: Feb 22, 2002
> What happens when the do-all switch breaks a spring? > > I've had some builders suggest a single pole three position > switch for the e-bus . . . DWN = alt feed, MID = off and UP > normal feed. Again, failure of single device kills the bus. > > Bob . . . So for this "Jesus switch" you get the best mil spec toggle switch you can find. What is the probability of it failing in a way that inops both poles? If it is the same order of magnitude as failure of he battery then this might not be unreasonable? Piers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Single pt of failure (was Ess Bus feed - Diodes)
> > normal feed. Again, failure of single device > kills the bus. I remember proposing a simpler alternative to control the contactors and essential bus. Essentially, I was trying to reduce the number of operations (not parts)in case of an alternator failure and I was also trying to prevent possible errors for normal operations (like not charging the second battery). The simpler solution I see is to control both contactors from a single Master switch. Then, for each contactor, have a test switch so everything can be tested at startup. The test spst switch would be located between the master switch and a contactor. In this configuration, in case of an alternator failure, I turn on the ess bus and shut of the one master switch and continue to get ventilated by that big fan in front of the plane, keeping a smile (not because of that switch arrangement since the ignition will be fed by the battery bus, not by the main bus). However, this not only create a single point of failure for both electrical systems, but it also add a second point of failure for each one of those systems. This said, my current thinking is that while a switch will eventually fail, the impact of that failure should be minimal.... exactly as the impact of an alternator failure should be minimal. If one of my contactor fails (open), my master switch fails (open) or any of the contactor test switches fail (open), I still have the essential bus alternate feed as an option. From my (limited) experience, switches can also failed closed (contacts welds together I suppose). In this case, by having the test switches, I help myself as this gives me a second opportunity to open the circuit to shut down the electrical system (a sort of shadow master switch). I may be missing something important, but it seems to me that a single point of failure in the main electrical system will not cause me more problems in flight than the failure of an alternator. ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://sports.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> > > > What happens when the do-all switch breaks a spring? > > > > I've had some builders suggest a single pole three position > > switch for the e-bus . . . DWN = alt feed, MID = off and UP > > normal feed. Again, failure of single device kills the bus. > > > > Bob . . . > >So for this "Jesus switch" you get the best mil spec toggle switch you can >find. What is the probability of it failing in a way that inops both poles? >If it is the same order of magnitude as failure of he battery then this >might not be unreasonable? "Reasonable" is a subjective evaluation. Certainly many builders have found it so and many more will in the future. If it were my airplane, I'd rather have two $7 switches than one $30 switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Alternative architectures . . .
> > > > normal feed. Again, failure of single device > > kills the bus. > >I remember proposing a simpler alternative to control >the contactors and essential bus. Essentially, I was >trying to reduce the number of operations (not >parts)in case of an alternator failure Okay, let's talk about operations. If the low voltage light comes on, BATTERY MASTER - OFF, E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. If you want to reduce this, you can run the E-BUS ALT FEED in the on condition in normal flight so if the low voltage light comes on you have only one switch to turn off. This is easy to safeguard since the low voltage warning light drives off the main bus . . . it will flash at you until the main bus goes cold. >and I was also >trying to prevent possible errors for normal >operations (like not charging the second battery). If you can "forget" to turn one switch on, you can forget to turn any switch on . . . rearrangement of architecture will not change the possibility/probability of failure to operate any particular switch. In a few weeks, we'll be offering a bare board and fully assembled versions of the ignition battery management module (written up in several articles in SA and on our website). We MIGHT also offer an unassembled kit . . . not sure yet. The prototype boards are in hand and we're proofing the layout and instructions. Adding the IBMM to your system will PREVENT inadvertent placement of the AUX BATTERY - ON. This device can be wired to automatically close the aux battery contactor any time the bus is over 13.0 volts. >The simpler solution I see is to control both >contactors from a single Master switch. Then, for >each contactor, have a test switch so everything can >be tested at startup. The test spst switch would be >located between the master switch and a contactor. In >this configuration, in case of an alternator failure, >I turn on the ess bus and shut of the one master >switch and continue to get ventilated by that big fan >in front of the plane, keeping a smile (not because of >that switch arrangement since the ignition will be fed >by the battery bus, not by the main bus). > >However, this not only create a single point of >failure for both electrical systems, but it also add a >second point of failure for each one of those systems. > >This said, my current thinking is that while a switch >will eventually fail, the impact of that failure >should be minimal.... exactly as the impact of an >alternator failure should be minimal. > >If one of my contactor fails (open), my master switch >fails (open) or any of the contactor test switches >fail (open), I still have the essential bus alternate >feed as an option. > > From my (limited) experience, switches can also failed >closed (contacts welds together I suppose). In this >case, by having the test switches, I help myself as >this gives me a second opportunity to open the circuit >to shut down the electrical system (a sort of shadow >master switch). > >I may be missing something important, but it seems to >me that a single point of failure in the main >electrical system will not cause me more problems in >flight than the failure of an alternator. Sooooo . . . the bottom line is that it's possible to reduce the in-flight alternator failure response to the operation of a single switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Snively" <craigsn(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Where can I get
Date: Feb 22, 2002
Looking thru chap. 14 of the AeroElectric Connection, Bob talks about putting together a switch for multiple thermocouples and then into the gauge (like Figure 14-11, View B). I'm looking for a faston terminal strip to do that with providing I should use faston connectors on thermocouple wire. I'm also looking for a source for the thermocouple connectors (ala Figure 14-13 View B). Thanks Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: Diesel electrics (long)
>These thoughts are perhaps of interest to Fergus And to one or two others too! >I have been thinking about an electrical architecture for an airplane with a >Wilksch diesel engine I'd be glad to hear any authoritative views on this topic. I'm planning to use air gyros, driven from the bleed air that Mark Wilksch says will be available. So, I hope to have light loads once running. However, I know from many years of driving diesel cars that the starting process is the critical one. My first diesel always started so readily that the battery was well on its way out before I realised it (about 8 years from new, so I should have been expecting it!). If it could get past the first compression, it would fire & run, and I didn't realise how near the edge I was getting until the battery finally quit completely. [I plan to be a bit more pro-active on battery status in my Europa, whatever engine I finally fit!] My current diesel car takes more cranking to fire (same make so not sure why - maybe because this one turbocharged?) but that certainly shows up any lack of enthusiasm in the battery department. There are so many other good things going for the diesel that I don't want another weight problem to be the show-stopper. The engine itself is of course relatively heavy, and lugging a heavy battery around just because it's needed for the few seconds of startup seems a bit of a pity. regards Rowland | PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623 | Europa builder #435 G-ROWI ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: solenoide wiring
Date: Feb 22, 2002
Hi Bob or others, I'm wiring my airplane and I have a question. I look at differents wiring schematic's and saw they generally put the wire from battery contactor on the left side of the solenoide, (view when installed on the firewall). Is that a must? I've a space problem and i'd prefer to put it on the right side of my four branchs starter contactor. Is that possible to reverse it. Daniel 601HDS wiring and panel Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com/fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: solenoide wiring
> > > >Hi Bob or others, > >I'm wiring my airplane and I have a question. I look at differents wiring >schematic's and saw they generally put the wire from battery contactor on >the left side of the solenoide, (view when installed on the firewall). Is >that a must? I've a space problem and i'd prefer to put it on the right >side of my four branchs starter contactor. Is that possible to reverse it. > >Daniel If you have a 4-terminal contactor like our S701-1 (see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg ) You can interchange the fat terminals even tho the one on left may be marked "BAT" . . . in fact, both sets of terminals are interchangeable. If you have a 3-terminal contactor, the you MUST use the "left hand" fat terminal as the battery feed. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Alternative architectures . . .
> > > Okay, let's talk about operations. If the low > voltage light comes on, BATTERY MASTER - OFF, > E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. If you want to reduce this, > you can run the E-BUS ALT FEED in the on condition > in normal flight so if the low voltage light comes > on you have only one switch to turn off. This is > easy to safeguard since the low voltage warning > light drives off the main bus . . . it will flash > at you until the main bus goes cold. > >Bob, if you leave the E-BUS ALT FEED on during normal operations I assume >you would read full system voltage on the E-BUS. Not that it is needed as >you say, but is that correct. Yes . . . in fact, some builders have put their only voltmeter feed on the e-bus knowing that the time they REALLY need it is during battery only ops . . . They have the option of knowing further that the main bus is 0.7 volts higher and doing the mental calculation to arrive at the alternator setpoint . . . or as you have accurately stated, closing the e-bus alternate feed will raise the e-bus closer to the main bus. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Some welding cable specs
Date: Feb 22, 2002
Cheers, This is not a deep research paper, and perhaps bears filling out with better-established figures, but I went round to the local supplies shop and got #2 and #4 welding cable samples. I cut both to exactly 12"=1 foot and popped same onto the digital scale. These are very flexible lines (wish I'd had same to rebuild the odd WW II machine instead of wrestling with the usual boas) and may be attractive in particular spots. They are covered with a healthy rubber covering, but I would guess that a plastic sheath might protect against chafing. WIRE Samples are 600V, range +105/ -50degC, rubber-covered: #4 SWG weighs 59.9 grams/foot, diameter is 0.40 inches #2 SWG weighs 127.0 grams/foot, diameter is 0.50 inches. I have found that the #2 slides easily into 1/2inch underground lawn irrigation tubing at 15gm/ft. so should be useful for glassing in conduit where required. The #2 also is easily bent into 1inch radius curves, FWIW. Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: RE: Alternative architectures . . .
> >My comment wasn't about BATTERY MASTER - OFF, >E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. I realized that I am mixing up >the subject here as this was the current topic (one >switch for all). I am OK with e-bus on, master off >(why do I prefer that sequence?) However, I am trying >to avoid having to flip TWO master switches On or Off. looks like the IBMM is for you . . . for most normal operations you never have to touch the aux battery switch. If it's a mini-aux battery used for ignition backup only, then the aux battery switch could be left in AUTO/OFF all the time or even deleted from the panel. If you have a twin-aux battery useful for cranking, then the only time you'd find it useful to turn on the second battery manually is if you'd like to improve cranking performance . . . but the main battery should get the engine going just fine too. > For most people who spend more time in rented >aircrafts, this is not intuitive and I'm sure that if >anyone ever flies my plane, he would get mixed up >trying to understand the checklist or responding to a >failure situation. There will be two electrical >systems and I would like them to be operated as two >systems, not three. Then just leave the aux battery master off the panel, put in a IBMM and use the main battery only for cranking. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: solenoide wiring
Date: Feb 22, 2002
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: solenoide wiring >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:48:18 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Bob or others, > > > >I'm wiring my airplane and I have a question. I look at differents >wiring > >schematic's and saw they generally put the wire from battery contactor on > >the left side of the solenoide, (view when installed on the firewall). >Is > >that a must? I've a space problem and i'd prefer to put it on the right > >side of my four branchs starter contactor. Is that possible to reverse >it. > > > >Daniel > > If you have a 4-terminal contactor like our S701-1 > (see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg ) > You can interchange the fat terminals even tho the one > on left may be marked "BAT" . . . in fact, both sets > of terminals are interchangeable. > > If you have a 3-terminal contactor, the you MUST use > the "left hand" fat terminal as the battery feed. > > Bob . . . > > >http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > Thanks Bob. MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ________________________________________________________________________________
From: " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
Date: Feb 22, 2002
The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it up? Is there a Viagra for batteries? Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Pilla" <mpilla(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
Date: Feb 23, 2002
Try placing a higher voltage, momentarily, across the battery contacts. For example, if the battery pack is 1.2V (typical cell voltage), then just momentarily connect a flashlight battery (1.5V) with the same polarity. If you have two cells in series, then use 3V, etc. I've even taken a 9V battery to "shock" a 6V, nominal, NiCd pack. This is a trick learned years ago when flying RC models. Apparently this cuts through the crud and now you can charge the battery(s) with standard NiCd charger. The key is to only "tap" the final connection or just "swipe" it. You don't want to hold it too long - it will ruin the pack. I measure with a volt-meter and can see when the shock has caused the pack/cell to get up to a point where regular charging will work. Also, you will have to charge, deep discharge, charge a few times to get the cell back to close to normal. Good luck. Michael Pilla ----- Original Message ----- From: " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: how to revive dead NiCad batteries > > The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a > year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it > up? Is there a Viagra for batteries? > Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord > RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging! > > = > = > = http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > = > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
Ni-Cads will reverse if allowed to discharge low enough. I'd give a ring or check the SR batteries Web site. They are super friendly and probably know more about NiCads than any one. mailto:request(at)srbatteries.com Michael Pilla wrote: > > Try placing a higher voltage, momentarily, across the battery contacts. > > For example, if the battery pack is 1.2V (typical cell voltage), then > just momentarily connect a flashlight battery (1.5V) with the same > polarity. If you have two cells in series, then use 3V, etc. I've even > taken a 9V battery to "shock" a 6V, nominal, NiCd pack. This is a trick > learned years ago when flying RC models. > > Apparently this cuts through the crud and now you can charge the > battery(s) with standard NiCd charger. > > The key is to only "tap" the final connection or just "swipe" it. You > don't want to hold it too long - it will ruin the pack. I measure with > a volt-meter and can see when the shock has caused the pack/cell to get > up to a point where regular charging will work. > > Also, you will have to charge, deep discharge, charge a few times to get > the cell back to close to normal. > > Good luck. > > Michael Pilla > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net> > To: "aeroelectric" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: how to revive dead NiCad batteries > > > > > > The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more > than a > > year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to > get it > > up? Is there a Viagra for batteries? > > Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord > > RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 23, 2002
Subject: Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
In a message dated 2/23/02 7:41:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, skay(at)optonline.net writes: > > --This is true if the NiCad cell is used in a series battery pack (which is almost always the configuration). If you consider a series pack of say, 10 cells, the nominal voltage of the pack will be 12 volts. This battery pack will be a 12 volt current source until one of the cells is depleted first (all cells are different slightly and one will have the least capacity and will be dead first). The other series wired cells will continue to be current sources while the dead one is not. The resultant series current passes through the dead cell backwards (this cell is no longer a source of current) and causes it to take on a reverse charge. A single cell all by itself (not in a pack) will not reverse charge simply from being discharged 100%. Because of the physical design of the cell, it will ultimately be damaged by the heat of a reverse charge current. The "pack" example above will perform with a lower output voltage now (1.2 V less) and will be hindered by a rise in total internal resistance caused by the dead cell that must pass the total series current of the rest of the current producing good cells. The old advise that you need to discharge NiCad cells to zero volts to allow them to take on a full charge is true but only if you do it to a single cell or at a very low discharge current in a pack configuration (don't heat up the dead ones with reverse current). The next time you use your favorite cordless drill, take note of it's performance and when you experience a slight drop in speed or torque, stop using that battery pack and return it to the charger. Driving that "almost home" last screw with this pack will eventually ruin it. It has just shown you that it has at least one dead cell in it. John Z. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net>
Subject: Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
Here is a sledgehammer approach (Warning battery may explode!): This will probably only work if you can get access to the individual cells in the battery pack: Briefly (as in a fraction of a second) apply power to each "dead" (as measured with a voltmeter) cell from a 12 volt car battery. Make sure you have identified the polarity of the cell before doing it. Start applying the voltage very briefly - as in striking a match, then try recharging. If no luck, try a bit longer, but not more than a couple of seconds, recharge, etc. Feel how hot the cell gets before being tempted to apply the 12 volts for a longer time. You'll probably find that most of the cells have a small voltage across them and one or two have zero volts. It's the ones with zero volts you need to revive (remove internal short by applying 10 times the normal voltage - 12 volts instead of 1.2 volts). Hope this helps, but be careful, not a bad idea to wear gloves and a face shield. Finn theslumlord wrote: > > The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a > year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it > up? Is there a Viagra for batteries? > Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord > RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging! ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
Date: Feb 23, 2002
Finn Lassen wrote: > > > Here is a sledgehammer approach (Warning battery may explode!): *** Been there, done that. The zapped cells never last :(. What happens is that fine "dendrites" of metal form across the cell, shorting it out. When you zap the cell, you break the dendrites. But I imagine they're still mostly there. My preferred zapping technique was to use a fairly small current-limited power supply in parallel with a very LARGE electrolytic capacitor. The supply would throw a bunch of electrons into the cap, and when I touched it to the shorted cell, all those electrons would immediately be thrown into it. But it was self-limiting, because the cap only held so many electrons. If the cells aren't totally potted, you could go down to the radio shack and get one or more "cordless phone" battery packs - and just replace the cells. This is why I find Nicads a Bad Deal for a handheld. Nicads need to be constantly used, or they just don't work out very well. My KX-99 is loaded with alkalines, which I change out once a year, whether it needs it or not. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: John Rourke <john@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
Alkalines may be good for something that is rarely used, but for things that get used a lot, I love the NiMH batteries... very high current density, much better than NiCd and almost as good as alkalines in GPSes and radios (much better than alkalines for digital cameras) But, they have a self-discharge rate of 1-3% per day, so they need to be used/recharged fairly often. Incidentally, the manufacturers claim that NiMH batteries don't have memory effect... that may be true that they are better than NiCd, but I still believe I get better results if I deep-discharge them every few months, and then immediately recharge them (never leave rechargeable batteries completely discharged). For my Lowrance GPS, I find that the alkalines last about 5-6 hrs, while the NiMH last only about 4. I haven't tried a run-down test for the Icom A22... in receive mode, they both last a long long time. In my digital camera (Olympus D-500), I did a test - I could only get about 40 shots per set of alkalines, while I got over 300 with NiMH. (Incidentally, the "rechargeable alkalines" were worthless for the camera - after the first recharge I could only get 15 shots, a few recharges later and I could only get 3.) I don't understand it, I just report it! -John jerry(at)tr2.com wrote: > >Finn Lassen wrote: > >> >>Here is a sledgehammer approach (Warning battery may explode!): >> > >*** Been there, done that. The zapped cells never last :(. What happens >is that fine "dendrites" of metal form across the cell, shorting it out. >When you zap the cell, you break the dendrites. But I imagine they're still >mostly there. > > My preferred zapping technique was to use a fairly small current-limited >power supply in parallel with a very LARGE electrolytic capacitor. The >supply would throw a bunch of electrons into the cap, and when I touched it >to the shorted cell, all those electrons would immediately be thrown into >it. But it was self-limiting, because the cap only held so many electrons. > > If the cells aren't totally potted, you could go down to the radio shack >and get one or more "cordless phone" battery packs - and just replace the >cells. > > This is why I find Nicads a Bad Deal for a handheld. Nicads need to >be constantly used, or they just don't work out very well. My KX-99 is >loaded with alkalines, which I change out once a year, whether it >needs it or not. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Reviving dead NiCad batteries
> > >The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a >year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it >up? Is there a Viagra for batteries? There's going to be a LOT of response to this one. But let's back off and consider larger issues. IF your hand held is intended to be a backup for panel mounted equipment (That's what my hand helds do . . in fact, hand helds are my PRIMARY gps navigation aids), then consider trashing the ni-cads and installing alkaline cells. Here's why: (1) alkaline cells have a very long shelf life. Ni-Cads have a self-discharge rate of 0.5% to 1.5% per DAY. On average, a Ni-Cad left unattended for a month is seriously down in stored energy. Further, there's the psychological effect of not wanting to replace a rechargeable battery very often because they're (a) expensive and (b) sometimes soldered in as a battery array. Soooo . . . we tend to keep them in service far longer than practical and as cells age, their capabilities become more questionable . . . Leaving them on continuous "trickle" charge doesn't help much either. The critters will grow whiskers inside due to trickle charge or discharge flow of current. (2) unless you buy the higher cost, high capacity cells, alkaline batteries will start out fully charged with more stored energy. (3) you can buy generic alkaline cells that perform to within a few percent of the pink-bunny batteries that HAVE to cost more because of their multi-million dollar advertising overhead. (4) My generic alkalines cost me $0.25 per cell. Also, I know that my gps-hand helds have internal clocks and memory require some (albeit small) amount of battery power even when turned off. Soooo . . . before I launch on a cross country, new batteries go in both radios. That's 6 cells at $0.25 each for a grand total of $1.50. That won't buy me two cups of coffee at the first fuel stop. (5) This "if-ya-wanna-depend-on-it, put-in-new-batteries" approach to hand-held power management will assure that your radios do what you want when you want. Except for my rechargeable power tools where I need the high discharge rates of Ni-Cad or Ni-MH, I've come to depend on alkalines because their cost/performance ratio is MUCH higher when you NEED dependability. The ni-cad packs for my hand-helds are laying on the shelf where I put them years ago . . ., They're probably all corroded up inside and I don't care. Just like the battery in your airplane . . .unless you are prepared to do periodic quantitative capacity checks on the cells and KNOW what they're capable of, it's better to look for lower cost, preventative maintenance replacement alternatives. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: switch ratings - AC to DC
Date: Feb 23, 2002
Bob, I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there a formula? My Whelen's are the type that has the white lights molded/integrated with the position lights. My plan is to fuse 12.5A and run a 16 awg to the switch. From the switch will exit two 16 awg wires (one pidg connector), one going out each wingtip (via CPC at wing root) to a terminal strip. From the (single) wire, I will power both the colored light and the white (tail) light. Does this sound reasonable? Whelen specifies 4A for the position light, but they don't mention the requirement for the white tail light of the integrated unit. Considering it is of smaller diameter wire, it will be less than four (4) ampers. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Some welding cable specs
> >Cheers, > This is not a deep research paper, and perhaps bears filling out >with better-established figures, but I went round to the local supplies shop >and got #2 and #4 welding cable samples. I cut both to exactly 12"=1 foot >and popped same onto the digital scale. These are very flexible lines (wish >I'd had same to rebuild the odd WW II machine instead of wrestling with the >usual boas) and may be attractive in particular spots. They are covered with >a healthy rubber covering, but I would guess that a plastic sheath might >protect against chafing. Consider that welding cables are routinely used in environments where dump trucks run over them in gravel driveways . . . the covering on welding cable much thicker than aircraft wire any VERY robust. I would have no concerns for mechanical viability of welding cable as compared to aircraft wire in an airplane. >WIRE >Samples are 600V, range +105/ -50degC, rubber-covered: >#4 SWG weighs 59.9 grams/foot, diameter is 0.40 inches >#2 SWG weighs 127.0 grams/foot, diameter is 0.50 inches. > I have found that the #2 slides easily into 1/2inch underground lawn >irrigation tubing at 15gm/ft. so should be useful for glassing in conduit >where required. The #2 also is easily bent into 1inch radius curves, FWIW. >Ferg Good data! I'm surprised at the weights you're getting. I have some 4AWG welding cable left over from when we were still doing battery jumpers here at AEC . . . my sample weighs in a 3 oz (80 grams) per foot. Don't have any 2AWG welding cable left. I may drop by my local supplier and get a chunk. Checking the data table at: http://www.interstatewire.com/Specpage.asp?sCatalogPage=18c&ID=13 we see that tefzel 2AWG weighs .23#/ft (4 oz or 104 grams/ft) and tefzel 4AWG scales at .15#/ft (2.5 oz or 69 grams/ft). This means that compared to my sample of 4AWG welding cable, your sample is much closer to the weight of aircraft wire . . in fact, your 4AWG is LIGHTER. Hmmmm . . . I'm wondering if your 4AWG is REALLY that heavy in copper content . . . it sounds too light. In any case, aside from issues of weight, welding cable is lower temperature rated . . . 105C . . . okay, that means that you need to keep an eye on it where it might be exposed to high temperatures (like under the cowl). If during periodic inspections, the insulation begins to change appearance or texture, replace the wire. My general sense is that welding cable will probably survive very nicely under the cowl . . . except where you find the need to wrap it around your exhaust stacks. The BWB (biggie with bureaucrats) are flammability and products of combustion issues. The covering on welding cable will put out really noxious smoke common to rubbers (while Tefzel puts out phosgene gas . . . take your pick) and welding cable may indeed fail the tests for supporting combustion in an active fire. It's really easy to burn a 22 or even a 14AWG wire compared to the 4 or 2AWG battery and starter feeds. Probability of this being an issue are very tiny. If it were my airplane, I'd have no problem with welding cable for major feeders ESPECIALLY where flexibility in short pieces (battery jumpers etc) is desirable. I'm curious about the weights you're getting. It sounds like there may be some variance of either copper content or perhaps insulation thickness . . . perhaps the stuff you have is indeed so thin that abrasion resistance IS an issue. I'd like to see some samples of what you have. Bob . . . Bob . . . -------------------------- TEMPORARY WEBSITE ADDRESS: http://209.134.106.21 -------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Loram <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Re: Reviving dead NiCad batteries
Date: Feb 23, 2002
This is the real bottom line for equipment that MUST work when you need it... With rechargables you are rarely in a position to know their current state/capacity... If I'm just hanging out at the field, I'll slip the re-chargeables into my handheld, but when I climb into the left seat, the nicads go back into the charger and I make sure I have a couple of sets of fresh alkalines. -john- -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)kscable.com] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Reviving dead NiCad batteries ... Just like the battery in your airplane . . .unless you are prepared to do periodic quantitative capacity checks on the cells and KNOW what they're capable of, it's better to look for lower cost, preventative maintenance replacement alternatives. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net>
Subject: switch ratings - AC to DC
Date: Feb 23, 2002
> I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position > lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading > it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on > switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there > a formula? > I don't think there is one. It has to do with the physical manufacture of the switch. The problem is arcing across the contacts which can short the switch contacts. With AC, there's a zero crossing at which point the current goes to zero and stops the arcing and allows the switch to open the circuit. There's no such thing with DC. As the switch contacts separate (physcially), you can get an arc across those contacts that will end up arc welding the contacts together shorting the switch on. You need to find a switch with the appropriate DC ratings. Unless Bob tells me I'm wrong, of course... -Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
Date: Feb 23, 2002
I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according to Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your investment or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated switch?" Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: switch ratings - AC to DC Bob, I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there a formula? My Whelen's are the type that has the white lights molded/integrated with the position lights. My plan is to fuse 12.5A and run a 16 awg to the switch. From the switch will exit two 16 awg wires (one pidg connector), one going out each wingtip (via CPC at wing root) to a terminal strip. From the (single) wire, I will power both the colored light and the white (tail) light. Does this sound reasonable? Whelen specifies 4A for the position light, but they don't mention the requirement for the white tail light of the integrated unit. Considering it is of smaller diameter wire, it will be less than four (4) ampers. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
> >Bob, > I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position >lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading >it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on >switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there >a formula? No but there's an article at: http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf . . . that speaks to this issue. > My Whelen's are the type that has the white lights molded/integrated >with the position lights. My plan is to fuse 12.5A and run a 16 awg to >the switch. From the switch will exit two 16 awg wires (one pidg >connector), one going out each wingtip (via CPC at wing root) to a >terminal strip. From the (single) wire, I will power both the colored >light and the white (tail) light. Does this sound reasonable? Whelen >specifies 4A for the position light, but they don't mention the >requirement for the white tail light of the integrated unit. >Considering it is of smaller diameter wire, it will be less than four >(4) ampers. Why 12.5A???? These lamps are about 2A each, 4 lamps comes to 8A so a 10A fuse is plenty. The 4A figure quoted by Whelen is apparently for the pair of bulbs in each fixture. Check out the article cited above. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
> >I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA >Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has >only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according to >Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying >DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your investment >or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated >switch?" > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Cy, that article (or one like it) has been circulating around for years. I think it first appeared in an issue of the Van's Air Force about 5 years ago. The author takes some perfectly good data from the spec sheets for switches and then mis-interprets it. This is one of the reasons I became discouraged with writing for EAA . . . without peer review of articles and with no expertise on the publishing staff, there's been some pretty poor advice printed the flagship publication of the EAA. If one can't look to this organization for the straight skinny, where ELSE would one look? I decided to make http://www.aeroelctric.com the place . . . at least for electrical stuff. Check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
"M Jones"
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
Date: Feb 23, 2002
Well, Bob I guess the egg is on my face. The article was published in Sport Aviation I believe in 1985. I looked it up when I was think of putting it in the Experimenter after getting permission from Art to publish it. I guess I'd better write some sort of correction article. I hate it when some one blusters thru opinion as fact. It is even worse if I personally pass something on as fact when it isn't. I try my darnest to be helpful with correct info. This wasn't one of those moments. My apologies. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: switch ratings - AC to DC > >I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA >Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has >only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according to >Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying >DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your investment >or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated >switch?" > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Cy, that article (or one like it) has been circulating around for years. I think it first appeared in an issue of the Van's Air Force about 5 years ago. The author takes some perfectly good data from the spec sheets for switches and then mis-interprets it. This is one of the reasons I became discouraged with writing for EAA . . . without peer review of articles and with no expertise on the publishing staff, there's been some pretty poor advice printed the flagship publication of the EAA. If one can't look to this organization for the straight skinny, where ELSE would one look? I decided to make http://www.aeroelctric.com the place . . . at least for electrical stuff. Check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2002
From: Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
> it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on > switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there > a formula? Usually you can get away with 15A @ 125VAC = 15A @ 12VDC, but like Bob says, depends on who made 'em. For a humorous acount of trying the 15A @ 125VAC switches on 120VDC see: http://www.tcrobots.org/members/akili.htm Start about half way down, with scootey. Not a robot, but a real scooter. Then somewhere in the account about May 28th I think, the fun starts (it was a dark night in the suburbs...). (I happen to know these people :-). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Some welding cable specs
Date: Feb 23, 2002
> The BWB (biggie with bureaucrats) are flammability > and products of combustion issues. The covering on > welding cable will put out really noxious smoke common > to rubbers (while Tefzel puts out phosgene gas . . . take > your pick) and welding cable may indeed fail the tests > for supporting combustion in an active fire. Just an interesting observation regarding the "fire resistance" of Tefzel vs welding type cable insulation. I used Tefzel #4 for starter wiring, and #2 welding cable for a engine ground. I soldered the ends into copper lugs using a propane torch, and the Tefzel really liked to flame while the welding cable's insulation simply smoked a little. The Tefzel would immediately reignite when I put the torch anywhere near it. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A N66AP flying 94 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
Date: Feb 23, 2002
After I wrote my chagrinned apology I got out my Newark and Grainger catalogs. Talk about confusing. Some switches are rated as AC only, a few DC, and several are listed as AC/DC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: switch ratings - AC to DC > >I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA >Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has >only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according to >Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying >DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your investment >or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated >switch?" > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org Cy, that article (or one like it) has been circulating around for years. I think it first appeared in an issue of the Van's Air Force about 5 years ago. The author takes some perfectly good data from the spec sheets for switches and then mis-interprets it. This is one of the reasons I became discouraged with writing for EAA . . . without peer review of articles and with no expertise on the publishing staff, there's been some pretty poor advice printed the flagship publication of the EAA. If one can't look to this organization for the straight skinny, where ELSE would one look? I decided to make http://www.aeroelctric.com the place . . . at least for electrical stuff. Check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Wig-Wag
Bob, I have a Gall's Wig-Wag Headlight Flashing System # FS039 which I would like to use in my RV-6A - with your schematic, if possible. Its wires are colored differently from the ones in your schematic. They are Brown and White to go to one headlight circuit (brown to the incoming lead and white to the light) and yellow and green to the other light (yellow to the incoming lead and green to the other light). Red is separated and fused and is obviously a power connection. There is also a switch on the box. Can you tell from my description which wires correspond which wire colors in your schematic (if this unit functions in the same way as the one you worked with). Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: Matt Prather <mprather(at)micron.net>
Subject: Small RG batteries
Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM magnet alternator VariEze. The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like it will keep my one electronic ignition and MicroAir com radio going for far longer than I have fuel. The battery looks like just a small version of the batteries produced by Concorde. Anyone have any input? The reason that I am asking is that I had gotten the impression that other RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's? Thanks, Here is a link to their page: http://www.exide.com/products/trans/productdetail/champion_sealed_powersport.html Matt- VE N34RD ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Diesel electrics (long)
Date: Feb 24, 2002
> Rowland As I understand it the lightest RG battery that Wilksch has found suitable for starting is the Hawker Energy SBS-30. This is a bit lighter than a Concord 25 RG XC (which apparently proved inadequate) Piers ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: David Mullins <n323xl(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
Matt, If you have to add acid that sounds like a flooded cell battery not a RG Battery. I purchased a Hawker Odyssey RG Battery It came fully charged and did not have to add acid to it. The local distributor (Batteries Plus) did an unscientific test with one that was damaged in shipment. It had a hole in the side about the size of two golf balls. They installed it into a truck and it lasted there for 8 months until the thing dried out. Actually, if you open the top of this battery you blow the warranty! Dave Mullins Nashua, New Hampshire Website: http://n323xl.iwarp.com WebCamera: http://n323xl.iwarp.com/KRCam.html Matt Prather wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG > batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM > magnet alternator VariEze. The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like > it will keep my one electronic ignition and MicroAir com radio going > for far longer than I have fuel. The battery looks like just a small > version > of the batteries produced by Concorde. Anyone have any input? > > The reason that I am asking is that I had gotten the impression that other > RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal > it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's? > > Thanks, > > Here is a link to their page: > > http://www.exide.com/products/trans/productdetail/champion_sealed_powersport.html > > Matt- > VE N34RD > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
> >Well, Bob I guess the egg is on my face. The article was published in Sport >Aviation I believe in 1985. I looked it up when I was think of putting it in >the Experimenter after getting permission from Art to publish it. I guess >I'd better write some sort of correction article. > >I hate it when some one blusters thru opinion as fact. > >It is even worse if I personally pass something on as fact when it isn't. I >try my darnest to be helpful with correct info. This wasn't one of those >moments. > >My apologies. > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org No apologies are in order to me my friend. I'm not the least bit offended . . . I am sad however that EAA has been oblivious to the value and need for peer review of technical articles. Another good example of a toe-stubber in Sport Aviation was analyzed in detail at http://209.134.106.21/articles/rules/review.html I talked with Jack about this several times on the phone and in person at OSH . . . I allowed as how with over 100,000 issues of SA going out to the world every month it was incumbent upon him as editor-in-chief to do everything he could to insure technical accuracy of the material. It was important to safeguard Sport Aviation's status as "keeper of the true light" on amateur built airplanes. If any bureaucrat with government wanted to bolster his own visions of how potentially dangerous our airplanes are, all he would have to do is pick up a few selected issues of S.A. and hammer us with them. It wouldn't matter how much good information had been published, all it would take is a half dozen stinkers to make us look REALLY bad in some senate hearing on aviation legislation. Jack told me he didn't have the luxury of turning down many articles . . . he and a few others were kept busier than a one armed paper hanger in a breeze just trying to fill the pages of SA every month. After that statement, I wrote a letter to Tom P offering to be a technical editor for SA. The offer at that time was for $12K per year I would see that there was one first-class technical article for SA every month. Given the wealth of aviation expertise here in Spam Can Capitol of the World, I would guarantee peer review of each piece no matter what the subject. I also asked for a budget of another $10K per year to (gasp) pay for articles (those dollars were to pay others . . . I told him that I would generate at least 4 pieces per year as part of the package deal as an editor). I explained to Tom that when someone has customers waving credit cards for high dollar labor it's really difficult to donate the 8-12 hours that it takes to produce a class piece. Tom wrote back politely telling me that EAA was just to strapped for cash (they were busy bulldozing all the houses and mom-n-pop businesses on Knapp Street) and that he just couldn't consider my offer. He didn't even mention whether or not he thought it was a good idea. Anywho, that was about the time I got really discouraged about beating EAA's drum for them. It was sad to note that Articles in Kit Planes are consistently stronger technically that those in Sport Aviation. When Issue 1, Vol 1 of SA hit the streets, it was perhaps a half dozen sheets of mimeographed paper and most of the content was how to build airplanes. Nowadays, perhaps 8-10% of each magazine has anything to do with building with the rest devoted to cash-cow advertising and fluff articles on somebody's homebuilt or restoration project. I haven't seen a copy of the Experimenter in years but the last one I saw looked more like what Uncle Paul was putting out as Sport Aviation 40 years ago. I'm not knocking the efforts of those like yourself who are working hard to keep the true light from going out . . . it's got to be difficult when the folks at the top are too busy support what EAA is supposed to be about - I wonder if they even remember. If you'd like to publish any of the pieces you find on my website, let's talk about them. Most could be tuned up for print publication and perhaps updated too . . . and I'll repeat an offer to you that I made to Jack (and more recently to Scott Spangler), I'll be glad to review (or find reviewers) for ANY article he'd care to send me. There are a few folks on this list that I'm sure would be willing to help out with electrical stuff. I can find folks here in Wichita who exercise other disciplines. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
> >Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG >batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM >magnet alternator VariEze. The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like >it will keep my one electronic ignition and MicroAir com radio going >for far longer than I have fuel. The battery looks like just a small >version >of the batteries produced by Concorde. Anyone have any input? > >The reason that I am asking is that I had gotten the impression that other >RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal >it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's? Just because it's "sealed" doesn't make it an RG battery . . . and this is no exception. Now that you have it, I'd run it until it's capacity drops to 6 a.h. or so but next time get a REAL RG battery. Do you carry any additional ballast weight up front in addition to the battery? If you need the low weight, consider the NP12-12 at http://www.mywebplace.com/yuasaspec.html If you carry any ballast and can replace it with USEFUL weight, go on up to the NP18-12. The later battery is made by about everybody. Make sure it's a VRLA (vent regulated lead-acid) or RG (recombinant gas) technology. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Some welding cable specs
> > > > The BWB (biggie with bureaucrats) are flammability > > and products of combustion issues. The covering on > > welding cable will put out really noxious smoke common > > to rubbers (while Tefzel puts out phosgene gas . . . take > > your pick) and welding cable may indeed fail the tests > > for supporting combustion in an active fire. > > >Just an interesting observation regarding the "fire resistance" of Tefzel vs >welding type cable insulation. I used Tefzel #4 for starter wiring, and #2 >welding cable for a engine ground. I soldered the ends into copper lugs >using a propane torch, and the Tefzel really liked to flame while the >welding cable's insulation simply smoked a little. The Tefzel would >immediately reignite when I put the torch anywhere near it. I've noticed that too . . . maybe ours is not an "approved" test procedure . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
Date: Feb 24, 2002
>The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like Not an answer to your question, but... I had an 18 Ampere-hour battery in my O360 RV, and it did ok during the fall, but when temps dropped below about 30, it couldn't hack it. I switched to a 35 and no problems. BTW, I got these at Batteries Plus. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A N66AP flying 94 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag
> >Bob, >I have a Gall's Wig-Wag Headlight Flashing System # FS039 which I would >like to use in my RV-6A - with your schematic, if possible. Its wires >are colored differently from the ones in your schematic. They are Brown >and White to go to one headlight circuit (brown to the incoming lead and >white to the light) and yellow and green to the other light (yellow to >the incoming lead and green to the other light). Red is separated and >fused and is obviously a power connection. > >There is also a switch on the box. > >Can you tell from my description which wires correspond which wire >colors in your schematic (if this unit functions in the same way as the >one you worked with). Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make it work by: FS033 colors FS039 colors white brown and yellow red red blue green yellow white green doesn't exist black doesn't exist Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Where can I get
> >Looking thru chap. 14 of the AeroElectric Connection, Bob talks about >putting together a switch for multiple thermocouples and then into the >gauge (like Figure 14-11, View B). I'm looking for a faston terminal >strip to do that with providing I should use faston connectors on >thermocouple wire. I'm also looking for a source for the thermocouple >connectors (ala Figure 14-13 View B). How many thermocouples do you want to switch? Fast-Ons are not good thermocouple connectors. You can get the type illustrated at: http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OST Are all the thermocouples the same type . . . i.e. driving the same indicator? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gabriel A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: "Gnd" Terminal in Slick Magneto
Date: Feb 24, 2002
Bob: The Slick magnetos, in the O-360 A1A that I purchased from Van's, have a terminal labeled "gnd". How is it wired? I've seen engines where nothing is connected to it. In others the P lead shield is wired to it. I saw one where the "gnd" terminal was connected to 'single point ground'. Thanks, in advance. Gabe A Ferrer Cell: 561 758 8894 Voice or Fax: 561 622 0960 Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: Kevin & Theresa Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca>
Subject: Re: Where can I get
> > > > Fast-Ons > are not good thermocouple connectors. > > Bob . . . > Bob, I've just installed a Grand Rapids EIS 4000 engine monitor. They provide Fast-Ons to connect the EGT and CHT thermocouples to the wires going into the monitor. The wires to the monitor are theromcouple wire, matching the wire coming from the thermocouples. Why are Fast-Ons a bad idea? Does a bit of corrosion at the interface between the male and female Fast-Ons eventually screw up the accuracy? What should be used instead of Fast-Ons? I'd like something that is removeable, so I can simply unplug rather than pulling the probes if I ever need to pull the engine. Thanks, Kevin Horton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
Subject: Permanent Magnet Alternator - an alternator not needing
a battery?
Date: Feb 24, 2002
Bob, Is there such a thing as a permanent magnet alternator and would it not need a battery to excite the field? If there is such a thing that is suitable for aircraft, it would solve the problem of needing a battery to run the engines, wouldn't it? What is the real story here cause I know there has to be a big downside? Thanks, Rick Fogerson RV3 (ready to order fuselage) Boise, ID > >Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG > >batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM > >magnet alternator VariEze. > If you need the low weight, consider the NP12-12 at > http://www.mywebplace.com/yuasaspec.html If you > carry any ballast and can replace it with USEFUL weight, > go on up to the NP18-12. The later battery is made > by about everybody. Make sure it's a VRLA (vent regulated > lead-acid) or RG (recombinant gas) technology. > > Bob . . . > > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: Matt Prather <mprather(at)micron.net>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
This begs a couple of other questions for me. I apologize if they have already been asked. How do sealed batteries differ chemically from a normally flooded cell lead acide battery? Would it be normal for a sealed flooded acid battery to include glass mat separators? And how about the note on the web site " Advanced design shortens current paths, reduces resistance and delivers higher cranking power -- even in cold weather." Is this some marketing gimmick to get people to think they are getting an RG battery? Thanks again, Matt- VE N34RD Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>other >>RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal >>it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's? >> > > > Just because it's "sealed" doesn't make it an RG battery . . . > and this is no exception. Now that you have it, I'd run it > until it's capacity drops to 6 a.h. or so but next time > get a REAL RG battery. Do you carry any additional ballast > weight up front in addition to the battery? > > If you need the low weight, consider the NP12-12 at > http://www.mywebplace.com/yuasaspec.html If you > carry any ballast and can replace it with USEFUL weight, > go on up to the NP18-12. The later battery is made > by about everybody. Make sure it's a VRLA (vent regulated > lead-acid) or RG (recombinant gas) technology. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
> >This begs a couple of other questions for me. I apologize if they have >already >been asked. > >How do sealed batteries differ chemically from a normally flooded cell lead >acide battery? check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/rg_bat.html >Would it be normal for a sealed flooded acid battery to include glass mat >separators? And how about the note on the web site " Advanced design >shortens >current paths, reduces resistance and delivers higher cranking power -- >even in >cold weather." Is this some marketing gimmick to get people to think >they are >getting an RG battery? Could be . . . short power paths and glass mat separators would be good things to do for flooded batteries too . . . and would improve their performance but not do much for their shortcomings. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: PM Alternator - not needing a battery?
> > >Bob, >Is there such a thing as a permanent magnet alternator and would it not need >a battery to excite the field? If there is such a thing that is suitable >for aircraft, it would solve the problem of needing a battery to run the >engines, wouldn't it? What is the real story here cause I know there has to >be a big downside? Sure . . . the B&C SD-8 and 200G alternators are such critters. http://www.bandcspecialty.com/200gdesc.html http://www.bandcspecialty.com/SD8desc.html The regulators that come with them need a battery but it's possible to build a regulator that doesn't. The alternator on a Rotax is PM and doesn't require a battery . . . it's hard to control the output of these things efficiently and they're not terribly efficient as power generation devices either . . . but you're right, they do have exceptional reliability and simplicity. The Rotax engines use the same magnets as the alternator to excite their CD ignition systems as well. One set of magnets lights the lights and powers two, independent ignitions as well. Max output offered to date is 230 watts . . . and the regulator takes a pretty good beating. I've been considering ideas to get rid of the heat and improve performance in these systems. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP
> > > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make > it work by: > > FS033 colors FS039 colors > > white brown and yellow > red red > blue green > yellow white > green doesn't exist > black doesn't exist Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its switch in the ON position. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: "Gnd" Terminal in Slick Magneto
> > >Bob: > >The Slick magnetos, in the O-360 A1A that I purchased from Van's, have a >terminal labeled "gnd". > >How is it wired? >I've seen engines where nothing is connected to it. In others the P lead >shield is wired to it. That's what it's for. > I saw one where the "gnd" terminal was connected >to 'single point ground'. Nein, nein!!!! There should be a fat, braided jumper between the crankcase and the single point ground on the firewall. See chapter 5 of the AeroElectric Connection. The ground terminal on a magneto is for p-lead shields only. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
> > > >The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like > >Not an answer to your question, but... > >I had an 18 Ampere-hour battery in my O360 RV, and it did ok during the >fall, but when temps dropped below about 30, it couldn't hack it. I >switched to a 35 and no problems. BTW, I got these at Batteries Plus. Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a lotta pounds! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Foerster" <jfoerst(at)jps.net>
Subject: Do-it-yourself audio panel
Date: Feb 24, 2002
Bob, In this day and age, post 9-11, I feel obliged to monitor 121.5 for military advisories as I'm not like to see the military heavy iron, and they can't fly as slow as I do. I expect to have two comms, but as a VFR flyer, no nav, DME, etc. I would like to have a nice stereo DRE 244e ($410 street price) or perhaps a PS-Engineering 7100List $900) which has a CD player. Both of these are intercoms only, and to switch from one comm to another, the commercial solution is $1200 to $2200 just to add switching. Why can't I just build a rotary switched box to transfer the mike, headphone, and PTT from one to the other radio? This should be high level audio, no need for amplification. The plane is composit, so that inadvertent multipoint ground problems should not occur (but the panel is one piece of aluminum). Any suggestions? Thanks, Jim Foerster ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP
Thanks, Bob. Haven't had a chance to try it yet. I'll let you know my results presently. Richard Dudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make > > it work by: > > > > FS033 colors FS039 colors > > > > white brown and yellow > > red red > > blue green > > yellow white > > green doesn't exist > > black doesn't exist > > Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible > to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its > switch in the ON position. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP
Thanks, Bob. Haven't had a chance to try it yet. I'll let you know my results presently. Richard Dudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make > > it work by: > > > > FS033 colors FS039 colors > > > > white brown and yellow > > red red > > blue green > > yellow white > > green doesn't exist > > black doesn't exist > > Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible > to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its > switch in the ON position. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "lonnwood" <lonnwood(at)msn.com>
Subject: Running wires
Date: Feb 25, 2002
I have got to the point in wiring of my high wing tube and fabric plane that I need to start running wires to other parts of the plane with much of the behind the panel stuff done. How do you secure the wires to the tubes with fabric on the outside, such as running a wire back to the tail light? Should the wires be supported to where they never touch a tube? It would obviously be overkill to support one or 2 wires with addel clamps to the interior cross tubes. Other areas are running wires up along side the door post, and to individual overhead interior lights. Is that spiral plastic wrap an acceptable practice for this purpose or is there a better way. Thanks, Lonnie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
> > > > >How do sealed batteries differ chemically from a normally flooded cell lead > >acide battery? > > check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/rg_bat.html Just scanned through the piece I cited - hadn't looked at it in some time. I caught several cases where it wasn't clear whether the author was talking about flooded or RG batteries - Both are discussed in general terms. I've put the thing on my list of pieces needing updating. I suspect my friend Skip Koss at Concord wrote it. I'll collaborate with him and see if he'd like to update the version posted on Concord's site too. In any case, I don't mean to brush off your questions with a reading assignment . . . especially one that has loose ends. If you have unresolved questions I'll be pleased to address them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP
Yes!! It works as advertised using your schematic and wire color conversion. This is the $19.95 version of Galls Wig-Wag. Thanks Bob!! Richard Dudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make > > it work by: > > > > FS033 colors FS039 colors > > > > white brown and yellow > > red red > > blue green > > yellow white > > green doesn't exist > > black doesn't exist > > Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible > to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its > switch in the ON position. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Running wires
> >I have got to the point in wiring of my high wing tube and fabric plane >that I need to start running wires to other parts of the plane with much >of the behind the panel stuff done. > > How do you secure the wires to the tubes with fabric on the outside, >such as running a wire back to the tail light? Should the wires be >supported to where they never touch a tube? It would obviously be >overkill to support one or 2 wires with addel clamps to the interior >cross tubes. > >Other areas are running wires up along side the door post, and to >individual overhead interior lights. > >Is that spiral plastic wrap an acceptable practice for this purpose or >is there a better way. I've seen quite a few techniques that address this question. Most certified ships I've observed do use MS21919DG (Adel) clamps at every practical support point the wire passes. AC43-13, Paragraph 11-118 http://www.aeroelectric.com/3y-ch11_9.pdf suggests a target of no more than 1/2" of droop between support points for a wire and mandates support at every point for potential chafing. I think my personal favorite for supporting small bundles in along their trek to far-flung locations on the airplane would be a Nyla-Flow tubing conduit. This is the milky-white tubing sold in hardware stores to hook up humidifiers and icemakers. It's semi-rigid and can span relatively large distances with minimal support. It's easy to snake wires through it and affords excellent protection of wires. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Low cost backup radios . . .
In the interest of encouraging everyone to have Plan-B avionics in the flight bag, I've added the Japan Radio JHP-520 VOR nav/VHF comm hand held to our website catalog. I've not been able to find a source for Magellan GPS 310 receivers for prices better than you can do at Walmart, etc. In fact, here's a source for the GPS310 for $99: http://www.valcoelectronics.com/gps/gps310.htm When I go flying (always in rented aircraft) I'm comfortable with the notion that I'll get to where I intend to go whether or not anything on the panel is working . . . My dual GPS310 receivers are used for primary navigation and the JHP-520 in the bag (ALL powered by Alkaline batteries) say's I'll be able to get somebody's attention on the radio when I get there. You can take a peek at the instruction manual for the JHP-520 at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/jhp520.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP
Yes!! It works as advertised using your schematic and wire color conversion. This is the $19.95 version of Galls Wig-Wag. Thanks Bob!! Richard Dudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make > > it work by: > > > > FS033 colors FS039 colors > > > > white brown and yellow > > red red > > blue green > > yellow white > > green doesn't exist > > black doesn't exist > > Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible > to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its > switch in the ON position. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com>
Subject: SA articles
Date: Feb 25, 2002
Right ON Bob. I volunteered for FREE to edit and promote alternative engines as SA at times contained poor advice and occasionally simply incorrect info. As I have written several articles on the subject and published in 3 mags I at least expected some response. This was a personal contact with an EAA VP at Arlington 2001 Fly IN. All I wanted to do was promote SAFE auto engine conversions. Never even got a simple thanks but no thanks. Couple of years ago there was an article published about (among other things)the wonderful uses of Carbon Tetracloride. This 20+ years AFTER it was banned from consumer sales. Paul EAA55789 TC and FA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC > >Well, Bob I guess the egg is on my face. The article was published in Sport >Aviation I believe in 1985. I looked it up when I was think of putting it in >the Experimenter after getting permission from Art to publish it. I guess >I'd better write some sort of correction article. > >I hate it when some one blusters thru opinion as fact. > >It is even worse if I personally pass something on as fact when it isn't. I >try my darnest to be helpful with correct info. This wasn't one of those >moments. > >My apologies. > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org No apologies are in order to me my friend. I'm not the least bit offended . . . I am sad however that EAA has been oblivious to the value and need for peer review of technical articles. Another good example of a toe-stubber in Sport Aviation was analyzed in detail at http://209.134.106.21/articles/rules/review.html I talked with Jack about this several times on the phone and in person at OSH . . . I allowed as how with over 100,000 issues of SA going out to the world every month it was incumbent upon him as editor-in-chief to do everything he could to insure technical accuracy of the material. It was important to safeguard Sport Aviation's status as "keeper of the true light" on amateur built airplanes. If any bureaucrat with government wanted to bolster his own visions of how potentially dangerous our airplanes are, all he would have to do is pick up a few selected issues of S.A. and hammer us with them. It wouldn't matter how much good information had been published, all it would take is a half dozen stinkers to make us look REALLY bad in some senate hearing on aviation legislation. Jack told me he didn't have the luxury of turning down many articles . . . he and a few others were kept busier than a one armed paper hanger in a breeze just trying to fill the pages of SA every month. After that statement, I wrote a letter to Tom P offering to be a technical editor for SA. The offer at that time was for $12K per year I would see that there was one first-class technical article for SA every month. Given the wealth of aviation expertise here in Spam Can Capitol of the World, I would guarantee peer review of each piece no matter what the subject. I also asked for a budget of another $10K per year to (gasp) pay for articles (those dollars were to pay others . . . I told him that I would generate at least 4 pieces per year as part of the package deal as an editor). I explained to Tom that when someone has customers waving credit cards for high dollar labor it's really difficult to donate the 8-12 hours that it takes to produce a class piece. Tom wrote back politely telling me that EAA was just to strapped for cash (they were busy bulldozing all the houses and mom-n-pop businesses on Knapp Street) and that he just couldn't consider my offer. He didn't even mention whether or not he thought it was a good idea. Anywho, that was about the time I got really discouraged about beating EAA's drum for them. It was sad to note that Articles in Kit Planes are consistently stronger technically that those in Sport Aviation. When Issue 1, Vol 1 of SA hit the streets, it was perhaps a half dozen sheets of mimeographed paper and most of the content was how to build airplanes. Nowadays, perhaps 8-10% of each magazine has anything to do with building with the rest devoted to cash-cow advertising and fluff articles on somebody's homebuilt or restoration project. I haven't seen a copy of the Experimenter in years but the last one I saw looked more like what Uncle Paul was putting out as Sport Aviation 40 years ago. I'm not knocking the efforts of those like yourself who are working hard to keep the true light from going out . . . it's got to be difficult when the folks at the top are too busy support what EAA is supposed to be about - I wonder if they even remember. If you'd like to publish any of the pieces you find on my website, let's talk about them. Most could be tuned up for print publication and perhaps updated too . . . and I'll repeat an offer to you that I made to Jack (and more recently to Scott Spangler), I'll be glad to review (or find reviewers) for ANY article he'd care to send me. There are a few folks on this list that I'm sure would be willing to help out with electrical stuff. I can find folks here in Wichita who exercise other disciplines. Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Snively" <craigsn(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Where can I get
Date: Feb 25, 2002
Bob, My situation is this: Current situation: 6 cylinder lyc. w/ EGT/CHT on each cylinder going to a rotary switch for one output lead to a Rocky Mountain Instruments MicroMonitor. Westach thermocouples Moving to: Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/One, it has the ability to monitor 6 thermocouples (the way it is configured from the factory, it can be changed, but I'm not sure I want to do that). So what I was planning on doing was to take my 3 hottest cylinders (I've got lots of data on this), and connect up 3 CHT leads & 3 EGT leads to the 6 inputs. Then use some type of switch to get the other 3 when I need to troubleshoot something, such as bad spark plug, or clogged injector. It is the wiring and the "some type of switch" that I'm asking about. Thanks -----Original Message----- > >Looking thru chap. 14 of the AeroElectric Connection, Bob talks about >putting together a switch for multiple thermocouples and then into the >gauge (like Figure 14-11, View B). I'm looking for a faston terminal >strip to do that with providing I should use faston connectors on >thermocouple wire. I'm also looking for a source for the thermocouple >connectors (ala Figure 14-13 View B). How many thermocouples do you want to switch? Fast-Ons are not good thermocouple connectors. You can get the type illustrated at: http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OST Are all the thermocouples the same type . . . i.e. driving the same indicator? Bob . . . = = = http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org>
Subject: Bob's All-Electric Airplane Schematic
Date: Feb 25, 2002
Okay, I'm looking at this schematic, trying to understand it. I have a ton of questions designed to display my ignorance. Note that it's totally reasonable to tell me to go read the book and THEN ask these questions... (Speaking of which, I think I need to go order a copy...) First, I'm looking at the Main Alternator. It looks like there are three outputs: ground, "B" and "F". What is the difference between B and F? Next, it looks like power to the starter goes directly from the main alternator to the starter (via the selenoid, of course). However, the same power also looks like it goes to: A. "Battery Contactor" selenoid. B. Main Power Distribution Bus. C. Essential bus (via a diode to prevent back-talk) I'm confused, but it looks like the battery gets switched but that the alternator is always connected. It also looks like the battery is always connected to the instrument panel, unswitched. Finally, the drawing specifies 4AWG from the alternator to the 50A fuse, but 2 AWG in other places. Shouldn't it be 4AWG everywhere? Or do you use the smaller wire because it's assumed this is a short run? Next -- what does the B+C Alternator Controller do? Is this a fancy voltage regulator? -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: SA articles
Date: Feb 25, 2002
FYI, A friend of mine recently wrote a series of technical articles for SA. They paid him $500 each. David Swartzendruber Wichita > > --> > > Right ON Bob. > > I volunteered for FREE to edit and promote alternative > engines as SA at times contained poor advice and occasionally > simply incorrect info. As I have written several articles on > the subject and published in 3 mags I at least expected some > response. This was a personal contact with an EAA VP at > Arlington 2001 Fly IN. All I wanted to do was promote SAFE > auto engine conversions. > > Never even got a simple thanks but no thanks. > > Couple of years ago there was an article published about > (among other things)the wonderful uses of Carbon > Tetracloride. This 20+ years AFTER it was banned from consumer sales. > > Paul > EAA55789 > TC and FA > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
Subject: toggle switch failure modes?
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Bob, A couple days ago I posted a question about using a DPDT toggle switch for the ESS bus, using it to replace the diode function you show on your schematics. I didn't get a direct response but your response to another post using a similar idea was that there are some good reasons to use the diodes and that using a single switch results in a single point of failure. A couple questions: first of all, what other advantages are there to using the diodes besides their obvious function of keeping the current on the ESS bus from feeding back into the main bus? Second, what kind of failure modes does a toggle switch have? I don't know what it looks like inside....in a DPDT switch, can it break such that neither position can make contact? Can the contacts in BOTH positions weld together? Etc? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A canopy stuff... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2002
From: Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Do-it-yourself audio panel
At 20:40 25/02/2002, you wrote: > >Bob, >I would like to have a nice stereo DRE >244e ($410 street price) or perhaps a PS-Engineering 7100List $900) >which has a CD player. Check out Jim Weir's RST Engineering website... he sells an audio panel kit for substantially less than $410! Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: John Rourke <john@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: Running wires
You can get the same tubing in Teflon form, from McMaster-Carr, in many sizes (but don't use the thinwall stuff, it kinks up easily when you try to bend it), if you want the higher resistance to heat and flame. I bought both (Nylon-11 and Teflon PTFE) and did some flame tests, as well as dipping in a 500-degree solder tank... The nylon gets soft and starts to emit some fumes about the same time it actually starts melting, but does not burn; the teflon just sits there and does absolutely nothing except get fairly warm and a little bit softer but nowhere near the point of melting. See: <http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0081.html> for a comparison of different kinds of Thermoplastic tubing. I ended up using (2) 8-ft lengths of 5/8" O.D. heavy-wall tubing as conduit in my Velocity; it's great for pulling new cable from the engine to the panel area; I can actually *push* 18-ga cable if the conduit isn't too full! I also, once upon a time, compared automotive battery cable to welding cable and Tefzel (22759-xx) in a 700+ degree solder pot and also with flame tests; the automotive cable burned immediately, made thick oily smoke and sustained a flame after the source was removed; the Tefzel smelled fairly nasty but would not burn right away (and would not sustain a flame at all); the welding cable gave off kind of a "hot rubbery smell" which wasn't irritationg at all, and would not burn or melt, but did swell just a bit. -John Velocity N173JR Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >> >>I have got to the point in wiring of my high wing tube and fabric plane >>that I need to start running wires to other parts of the plane with much >>of the behind the panel stuff done. >> >> How do you secure the wires to the tubes with fabric on the outside, >>such as running a wire back to the tail light? Should the wires be >>supported to where they never touch a tube? It would obviously be >>overkill to support one or 2 wires with addel clamps to the interior >>cross tubes. >> >>Other areas are running wires up along side the door post, and to >>individual overhead interior lights. >> >>Is that spiral plastic wrap an acceptable practice for this purpose or >>is there a better way. >> > > I've seen quite a few techniques that address this > question. Most certified ships I've observed do use > MS21919DG (Adel) clamps at every practical support > point the wire passes. > > AC43-13, Paragraph 11-118 > http://www.aeroelectric.com/3y-ch11_9.pdf > suggests a target of no more than 1/2" of > droop between support points for a wire and > mandates support at every point for potential > chafing. > > I think my personal favorite for supporting > small bundles in along their trek to far-flung > locations on the airplane would be a Nyla-Flow > tubing conduit. This is the milky-white tubing > sold in hardware stores to hook up humidifiers > and icemakers. It's semi-rigid and can span > relatively large distances with minimal support. > It's easy to snake wires through it and affords > excellent protection of wires. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net>
Subject: Re: Diesel electrics (long)
>the lightest RG battery that Wilksch has found suitable >for starting is the Hawker Energy SBS-30 I've found a local firm that stocks Hawker Energy "Odyssey engine start batteries", but the only types they list are: PC545 178x86x151mm 5.4kg PC625 170x99x175mm 6.0kg PC680 185x79x189mm 6.7kg PC925 169x179x147mm 10.9kg PC1200 200x169x192mm 16.0kg PC1700 331x168x195mm 26.6kg The type numbers appear to correspond to the amperage rating "5 secs to 7.2V @ 25C". I wonder which (if any) of those might be equivalent to the SBS-30 type? regards Rowland | PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623 | Europa builder #435 G-ROWI ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Rotax 914 all electric fuel pumps questions
Date: Feb 25, 2002
Bob, Some months ago I requested your advice about the wiring of our Rotax 914 powered MCR 4S composite project. Now the engine have been ordered, more informations are at hand : -The engines definitely runs on two ELECTRICAL fuel pumps, main and auxilliary, with NO mechanical pump. -According to the engine manual, the current draw of each of the two Pierburg pumps is in the 2-3 amps range. - Rotax advises to run the main pump direct from the alternator, and the backup pump from the main bus. We'd like to know your opinion on the following points : -Is this a good means of achieving the necessary electrical redundancy ? How should wee adapt your Z15 diagram ? -What is your best bet for the battery capacity ? The goal is to have 3 to 4 hour electrical endurance should the PM alternator or regulator fail. - The wiring will be inspired from your book, but if we kept some breakers on the panel, what are the most useful ? (alternator feeder, pitch trim motor...) - Should we feed the flaps from the essential bus or from the main ? Any input will be appreciated, Thanks, Gilles Thesee MCR 4S France ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: SA articles
> > >FYI, > >A friend of mine recently wrote a series of technical articles for SA. >They paid him $500 each. Interesting! Scott told me he was trying to get that budget. I'm pleased that he succeeded. Hmmm . . . I'll have to look in the work-in-progress basket and see if I have anything I could throw in the pot. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Bob's All-Electric Airplane Schematic
> >Okay, I'm looking at this schematic, trying to understand it. I have a >ton of questions >designed to display my ignorance. Note that it's totally reasonable to >tell me to go >read the book and THEN ask these questions... (Speaking of which, I think >I need >to go order a copy...) > >First, I'm looking at the Main Alternator. It looks like there are three >outputs: ground, >"B" and "F". What is the difference between B and F? B is "battery" connection - power OUT of alternator, F is the "field" connection - a low current control signal TO the alternator. >Next, it looks like power to the starter goes directly from the main >alternator to >the starter (via the selenoid, of course). However, the same power also >looks like >it goes to: > >A. "Battery Contactor" selenoid. >B. Main Power Distribution Bus. >C. Essential bus (via a diode to prevent back-talk) > >I'm confused, but it looks like the battery gets switched but that the >alternator is always connected. Yup . . . that's the way they do it in virtually every DC powered vehicle including your car. >It also looks like the battery is always connected to the instrument panel, >unswitched. Anything connected to the always-hot battery bus is indeed power all the time. We generally want to limit the current capability of such feeders to 5A or less . . . OR include some form of mini-contactor to disconnect heavier feeders. I'm working on a concept for this to support all-electric designs that must necessarily load the e-bus to more than 5A. >Finally, the drawing specifies 4AWG from the alternator to the 50A fuse, but >2 AWG in other places. Shouldn't it be 4AWG everywhere? Or do you use >the smaller wire because it's assumed this is a short run? Depends on the airplane. If the battery is remote from the engine, use 2AWG for lower voltage drop and improved cranking performance. If the battery, engine and panel are all on the same end of the airplane, 4AWG suffices throughout. >Next -- what does the B+C Alternator Controller do? Is this a fancy voltage >regulator? It's a controller . . . it contains a regulator, low voltage warning and crowbar ov protection in a single package. It's not a $225 regulator rather a three $75 system components combined into a single package. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: Instrument touch up
Pardon the possibly off topic post, but it seems there are many "panel wise" folk who lurk here - Does anyone know of a good way to touch up the black paint on an older instument, like the 3 1/8 inch black aluminum flight instruments? I just tried it on a part behind the face of one, and it looks pretty bad. I just want to dress up the face ring and the knobs a bit. Thanks, Gary Liming ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: SA articles
> > >Right ON Bob. > >I volunteered for FREE to edit and promote alternative engines as SA at >times contained poor advice and occasionally simply incorrect info. As I >have written several articles on the subject and published in 3 mags I at >least expected some response. This was a personal contact with an EAA VP at >Arlington 2001 Fly IN. All I wanted to do was promote SAFE auto engine >conversions. > >Never even got a simple thanks but no thanks. > >Couple of years ago there was an article published about (among other >things)the wonderful uses of Carbon Tetracloride. This 20+ years AFTER it >was banned from consumer sales. Understand. Some folks take great umbrage at any suggestion that EAA has lost sight of the mission but I'm hard pressed to find evidence to the contrary. OSH will continue to be THE place where everyone gathers every year to meet and see what's going on but keepers of the light may no longer live there. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP
Follow-up, follow-up Bob, In going through all the switch combinations, I discovered one anomaly that I'd rather avoid. It is an unlikely combination but still possible. Here is the logic table: Switches Lights Taxi Landing Taxi Landing Down Down Off Off Down Mid Wig Wag Down UP Off On Mid Down Off Off Mid Mid Wig Wag Mid Up Off On Up Down On Off Up Mid On off - relay rapid chatter Up Up On On It is the rapid chatter (much faster than wig-wag rate) of relay that concerns me. The switch positions are not normal but are possible. Knowing the circuitry of the controller, is there some alternative wiring I might try? Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make > > it work by: > > > > FS033 colors FS039 colors > > > > white brown and yellow > > red red > > blue green > > yellow white > > green doesn't exist > > black doesn't exist > > Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible > to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its > switch in the ON position. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
Date: Feb 25, 2002
> Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller > battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that > are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a > lotta pounds! The 18 a.h. battery weighed 13.8 lbs., the 35 a.h. double that. The weight gain wasn't fun, but neither was the low cranking speed with the smaller one. Even with a well preheated engine, the cold battery temp seemed to really kill off the cranking amps. It is possible that the battery simply croaked, although it wasn't more than about 10 months old, with only 3 months of actual use. However, I've lived in MN long enough to not even think about fighting wimpy batteries. They were both the Chinese made standard Batteries Plus brand, VRLA or something like that type. The 35 a.h. battery fits Van's battery box perfectly. If I dig up the part nos., I'll post them. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN 6A N66AP flying 94 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
> > > > Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller > > battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that > > are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a > > lotta pounds! > >The 18 a.h. battery weighed 13.8 lbs., the 35 a.h. double that. The weight >gain wasn't fun, but neither was the low cranking speed with the smaller >one. Even with a well preheated engine, the cold battery temp seemed to >really kill off the cranking amps. It is possible that the battery simply >croaked, although it wasn't more than about 10 months old, with only 3 >months of actual use. However, I've lived in MN long enough to not even >think about fighting wimpy batteries. > >They were both the Chinese made standard Batteries Plus brand, VRLA or >something like that type. The 35 a.h. battery fits Van's battery box >perfectly. If I dig up the part nos., I'll post them. If you'd like to try a premium 18 a.h. battery next time, talk to Bill at B&C (316.283.8000). He handles the Hawker products in that size that might do the job with less weight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com>
Subject: Small RG batteries
Date: Feb 26, 2002
Bob, Panasonic makes both a 17Ah and 20Ah RG battery in the same standard case size. Is there any drawback (other than an extra 0.22 lbs.) in using the 20Ah? Durability perhaps? I plan to put a new one in at every annual (they're pretty cheap and I can use the old one in non-flying equipment). Here are spec sheets: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/lc-rd1217p.pdf http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/lc-x1220p.pdf According to this chart: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/chem/seal/index.html the 17Ah is designed for main and standby power and the 20Ah is just designed for standby power. Chris Heitman Dousman WI RV-9A N94ME (reserved) fitting engine baffles http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html -----Original Message----- If you'd like to try a premium 18 a.h. battery next time, talk to Bill at B&C (316.283.8000). He handles the Hawker products in that size that might do the job with less weight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FlyV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 26, 2002
Subject: Re: Instrument touch up
In a message dated 2/25/2002 3:58:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, gary(at)liming.org writes: << Does anyone know of a good way to touch up the black paint on an older instument, like the 3 1/8 inch black aluminum flight instruments? I just tried it on a part behind the face of one, and it looks pretty bad. I just want to dress up the face ring and the knobs a bit. Thanks, Gary Liming >> I have used Krylon ultra flat black. I spray it in a container (small cup) to get a puddle and then use a camel hair brush dipped in the paint to do the touch up. Cliff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2002
From: Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Alternator windings
Bob, (or anyone else) when you get some time, could you explain the functional difference between Delta-wound and Wye-wound alternators? I've read articles that claim the reason car alternators can't be used in aircraft is because they are Wye's, and airplanes need Delta's (or maybe the other way 'round.) Sounds like baloney to me. I'm always suspicious when someone states a "fact," then doesn't support it with data or an explanation. The only info I've uncovered was a short note in an electrical handbook that stated a Wye-wound alternator could be wired in such a way as to produce two voltages at the same time. BTW, yesterday I had a long talk with my local FSDO airworthiness inspector about a simple and safe modification I want to make to a customer's Mooney... sigh. As they say, "Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud; after awhile you realize they both enjoy it." My next airplane will be a homebuilt. Bill Irvine Lancaster, CA C-310 http://sports.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2002
From: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
I'm building a F1 Rocket and will be installing a IO-540-C4B5 with 10:1 compression, Lightspeed dual ignition, 60 amp. and 8 amp. B&C alternators and a B&C starter. Will the 18 a.h. battery have a enough umph to start it and be reliable for IFR flight? Scot > > > > > > > > > Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller > > > battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that > > > are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a > > > lotta pounds! > > > >The 18 a.h. battery weighed 13.8 lbs., the 35 a.h. double that. The weight > >gain wasn't fun, but neither was the low cranking speed with the smaller > >one. Even with a well preheated engine, the cold battery temp seemed to > >really kill off the cranking amps. It is possible that the battery simply > >croaked, although it wasn't more than about 10 months old, with only 3 > >months of actual use. However, I've lived in MN long enough to not even > >think about fighting wimpy batteries. > > > >They were both the Chinese made standard Batteries Plus brand, VRLA or > >something like that type. The 35 a.h. battery fits Van's battery box > >perfectly. If I dig up the part nos., I'll post them. > > > If you'd like to try a premium 18 a.h. battery next time, > talk to Bill at B&C (316.283.8000). He handles the Hawker > products in that size that might do the job with less weight. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: Instrument touch up
Date: Feb 26, 2002
Gary Liming wrote: > > > > Pardon the possibly off topic post, but it seems there are many "panel > wise" folk who lurk here - Does anyone know of a good way to touch up the > black paint on an older instument, like the 3 1/8 inch black aluminum > flight instruments? **** Airbrush. An external-mix one will work if you mask. I'm told that with an internal-mix one, you won't even need to mask - total elimination of overspray is the result of the "internal" mix feature. Personally, I have an external-mix Badger 350 - and I mask. Knobs are a special case. No paint will survive. I think knobs are typically black anodized - that's a sort of electroplating, where the color actually becomes part of the aluminum. It might be possible to have knobs re-anodized at a plating house, but you might not like the price. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Subject: Re: PM Alternator - not needing a battery?
Date: Feb 26, 2002
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > > > >Bob, > >Is there such a thing as a permanent magnet alternator and would it not need > >a battery to excite the field? If there is such a thing that is suitable > >for aircraft, it would solve the problem of needing a battery to run the > >engines, wouldn't it? What is the real story here cause I know there has to > >be a big downside? > > Sure . . . the B&C SD-8 and 200G alternators are such critters. > > http://www.bandcspecialty.com/200gdesc.html > http://www.bandcspecialty.com/SD8desc.html > > > The regulators that come with them need a battery but it's possible > to build a regulator that doesn't. The alternator on a Rotax is > PM and doesn't require a battery . . . it's hard to control the > output of these things efficiently and they're not terribly efficient > as power generation devices either . . . but you're right, they > do have exceptional reliability and simplicity. > *** I've had a couple of motorcycles that used the BHZD ( Big Honkin Zener Diode ) technique to "control" such alternators. Basically, the BHZD is chosen so that its response knee corresponds with the voltage needed to charge the battery. Of course, this arrangement leads to the alternator constantly putting out its full rated current. This works well for a vehicle ( such as a large-bore motorcycle ) that is a. Vastly overpowered for its size and weight and b. Not expected to last more than 20-30 thousand miles. So for aviation use, it might seem preferable to use some sort of series regulation, rather than the BHZD. But what about the BHZD as an emergency backup? NO second battery, just a big diode? With the big diode and a second generator, you would have pretty good maintenance-free redundancy. No, you wouldn't be able to start the plane with it, but at least at that point, you're on the ground.... An interesting aside: a few years ago, I bought a neat little AC generator (to use at the airport ), that had a two-stroke motor driving a PM alternator. The "regulator" was a microprocessor-controlled gizmo that drove the engine throttle! And the output of the whole thing went to a 850W AC inverter. So you could get 12V at LOTS of amps out of it, and the whole thing only weighed 25 pounds. Unfortunately, it expired from "exploding rotor" syndrome.... - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: PM Alternator - not needing a battery?
>*** I've had a couple of motorcycles that used the BHZD ( Big Honkin Zener >Diode ) technique to "control" such alternators. Basically, the BHZD is >chosen so that its response knee corresponds with the voltage needed to >charge the battery. > > Of course, this arrangement leads to the alternator constantly putting >out its full rated current. This works well for a vehicle ( such >as a large-bore motorcycle ) that is > > a. Vastly overpowered for its size and weight > > and > > b. Not expected to last more than 20-30 thousand miles. > > So for aviation use, it might seem preferable to use some sort of series >regulation, rather than the BHZD. What you're referring to is a form of shunt regulation. By placing and active component (zener or other combination of electronics) right across the output of the alternator such that it prevents the bus from rising above the desired setpoint . . . i.e. about 14 volts. As you've noted, when system loads on the alternator are LEAST (battery charged, most goodies OFF) the shunt regulator has to accept all of the alternator's available output. The alternator basically runs full bore all the time and you either use the output to do useful things or you turn it into heat. All modern regulators for PM alternators use silicon controlled rectifiers in two of the four slots of a bridge rectifier. These become series switches that are turned on earlier in the AC phase waveform to increase output. In this regard, the system works more like a wound-field alternator . . . when less output is needed, the SCR's are turned on later . . . current draw from the alternator goes down and wasted energy is minimized. None the less, the bridge rectifier for the alternator must carry full output current of the power generation system. Diodes full on have about .7 volt drop, SCR's are higher . . . about 1.2. Under worst case conditions the series rectifier/regulator drops about 2 volts at full output current. For an 18A Rotax alternator this dumps about 35 watts of heat . . . VERY toasty as most electronic devices go . . . > But what about the BHZD as an emergency backup? NO second battery, just >a big diode? With the big diode and a second generator, you would have >pretty good maintenance-free redundancy. No, you wouldn't be able to >start the plane with it, but at least at that point, you're on the >ground.... You still need the rectifier . . . followed by the BHZD . . . and it runs very hot all the time irrespective of loads. The series rectifier/regulator used with the B&C SD-8 and 200G has a very low parts count and because the alternator is only rated at 8A, it doesn't get so hot either. I think I'd stay with the series connected rectifier/regulator. > An interesting aside: a few years ago, I bought a neat little AC > generator >(to use at the airport ), that had a two-stroke motor driving a PM >alternator. The "regulator" was a microprocessor-controlled gizmo that >drove the engine throttle! And the output of the whole thing went to a >850W AC inverter. So you could get 12V at LOTS of amps out of it, and the >whole thing only weighed 25 pounds. Unfortunately, it expired from >"exploding rotor" syndrome.... Bill and I built something like that for a military robotic project about 15 years ago. We worked with a company back east to make a chain-saw engine run on diesel fuel. I did a microprocessor based controller that operated two glo plugs, a contactor and a stepper motor to start and run the engine. A 48 volt PM motor was used to start the engine and after it warmed up, I could open the throttle and control fuel flow so as to get the 56 volts out of the motor running as a PM generator to charge 4 batteries in series. I think we were able to produce 30A continuously for a system power of about 1500 watts. When the system went to field trials, the program flopped but feedback we got from the end-users was, "The thing wouldn't run the mission worth a damn but it always started." I guess the part that Bill and I provided was the only piece that performed as expected. A fun project. Bob . . . > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com ) > > Bob . . . -------------------------- TEMPORARY WEBSITE ADDRESS: http://209.134.106.21 -------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net>
Subject: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements
Date: Feb 26, 2002
Bob, I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit? Thanks. Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings almost done, Boise, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2002
Subject: Do-it-yourself audio panel
From: Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Both of these are intercoms only, and to switch from one comm to another, the commercial solution is $1200 to $2200 just to add switching. Jim, Check out the PS PMA4000 it is an audio selector panel and intercom. Small 2.25 round or rectangle. Cost, not cheap, but both audio panel and intercom for about $650. Don Boardman & Partner Randy Bowers Super Rebel 3500 #130 M-14PF Aerocet 3400 Amphibs Rome, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net>
Subject: Re: Do-it-yourself audio panel
Date: Aug 28, 2001
Look at Bob's Aeroelectric site (http://209.134.106.21/articles.html) for a homebrew audio panel. You could adapt it to suit your particular installation. Stan Blanton RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements
At 12:56 27/02/2002, you wrote: > >I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do >you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit? Saw it here in New Zealand. Asking price was NZ$2800, which should translate to about US$1200, give or take a couple of hundred. Frank. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net>
Subject: Fig. Z-14 Dual Batt, Dual Alt Setup
Date: Feb 27, 2002
Hi Bob, Question for you...In Ch. 17 you talk about the S700-2-50 switch being used for the starter/crossfeed switch in Fig Z-14, ie a (on)-on-on switch. The fig. actually shows a S700-2-5 switch (on)-off-on. The S700-2-5 makes more sense to me. Which is correct? Also, would you clarify how the aux dc pwr master switch is designed to work. I presume it would have three positions; from the bottom, off, aux batt and aux batt/alt. The switch would then be turned on to aux batt/alt during flight thus charging the aux battery from the primary alt and hooking up the aux alternator to the aux bus (which would have no load on it since the crossfeed switch would be open at this point. If you then had a primary alt failure, all you would have to do would be to close the crossfeed switch and continue on, ensuring the load was not too much for the aux alt (however any extra load should be picked up by the 2 batteries for the remainder of the flight). Last question: Fig. Z-14, why does the "feed line" for the main bus go from the battery contactor VIA the crossfeed contactor and then to the main bus? Why not directly from the battery contactor to the main bus? Wouldn't his eliminate a point of failure? If the line on your Fig. broke (from the crossfeed contactor to the main bus) you would have no way of getting ANY power to the main bus given a dual alternator failure! Wouldn't separate feedlines from the 2 contactors improve this? There are probably other considerations I'm not thinking about...so please enlighten me! PS This system seems great for not much added expense over the "all-electric on a budget" setup...Are there potential downfalls I'm not seeing? Two smaller batteries would actually fit better in my plane than 1 bigger battery so that's what first got me thinking about it! Thanks, Brian ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org>
Subject: Aeroelectric connection vs. CD Rom
Date: Feb 27, 2002
Can someone describe the difference between the Aeroelectric connection and the CD ROM? Is there a .pdf of the book on the CD, or is the CD supplemental information? Thanks. -Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net>
Subject: Fuses/CB's
Date: Feb 27, 2002
Hi Bob, Another question for you...on fig. Z-14 on the main power bus, you show mostly fuses and then there's a 5A CB for the ALT FIELD. Why the CB instead of a fuse? Sounds like it makes sense, but I'm curious to hear the real rationale! Also you have a CB for the hyd pump...This seems to make sense too, since there isn't actually an on-off switch for the pump and it would be nice to have "override" control. Is this the rationale for the hyd pump CB? Are there any other systems that you would think would be nice to have this control over, ie use a CB over a fuse even tough you are going primarily with fuses? Also how exactly do you wire the CB off the fuse block? Your diagram only shows the CB connected to the fuse block, ie no connecting wire from the fuse block to the CB??? Thanks again for the comments! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KahnSG(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 27, 2002
Subject: RE:Black touch up
I agree with Cliff. The best paint is Krylon ultra flat black. Part no. 1602. You can remove it with acetone on a Q-tip. Be careful with acetone near plastic parts. For aluminum knobs, Birchwood Casey makes a metal touch up called "Aluminum Black". It is available in gun shops for touching up aluminum parts on guns that are "blued". It says that it contains selenium dioxide. Steve Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: toggle switch failure modes?
> >Bob, > >A couple days ago I posted a question about using a DPDT toggle switch for >the ESS bus, using it to replace the diode function you show on your >schematics. I didn't get a direct response but your response to another >post using a similar idea was that there are some good reasons to use the >diodes and that using a single switch results in a single point of failure. >A couple questions: first of all, what other advantages are there to >using the diodes besides their obvious function of keeping the current on >the ESS bus from feeding back into the main bus? No moving parts. Never seen one fail in service in an airplane. >Second, what kind of failure modes does a toggle switch have? I don't >know what it looks like inside....in a DPDT switch, can it break such that >neither position can make contact? Can the contacts in BOTH positions >weld together? Etc? Let's back up a bit. What don't you like about what you see in the wiring diagrams? Have you read and understand the failure tolerant design philosophy described in chapter 17 of the AeroElectric Connection? Where do you perceive that the diagrams published miss the mark? I'm not trying to avoid your questions I'm curious as to how the published architectures fall short. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements
> > >Bob, >I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do >you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit? >Thanks. Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings almost done, Boise, ID I have some units on back order. I'm told it's going to be another month . . . still bogged down in non-value- added-paperwork. As soon as I have my hands on some, I'll announce it on the list and on my website. I have orders in hand for 5 or 6 sets of equipment. I'll be offering a kit of transponder, prewired harness and ACK encoder for a package price. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements
> > >At 12:56 27/02/2002, you wrote: > > > >I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do > >you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit? Saw it here in New Zealand. Asking price was NZ$2800, which should translate to about US$1200, give or take a couple of hundred. It's been shipping to everywhere EXCEPT the US for months. Given all the new and overpowering duties the FAA has for aviation safety, we should expect and perhaps overlook the fact that it can still take months to get one person's signature on a piece of paper. After all, we wouldn't want anyone to believe it was an EASY task, would we? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Small RG batteries
> > >I'm building a F1 Rocket and will be installing a IO-540-C4B5 with 10:1 >compression, Lightspeed dual ignition, 60 amp. and 8 amp. B&C alternators >and a B&C starter. Will the 18 a.h. battery have a enough umph to start it >and be reliable for IFR flight? I've seen 12 a.h. batteries crank a high-compression aerobatic competition engine 5 times in a row. Capacity isn't the factor for hard limits. Given that you are planning on dual engine driven power sources, I'd also plan a battery tray space large enough for a 24 a.h. battery but try some smaller ones first. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements
Somebody at Becker told me they got approval for their ATC-4401 just last week. As it was the case for the Microair unit, approval for the Becker unit was delayed many months. Becker mentioned they're going to ship transponders within 3 weeks... of course, I will decide if I believe that in 4 weeks :-) Perhaps something happened at the FAA so they have time to put stamps on documents...? --- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > Nuckolls, III" > > Dorothy > > > > > >At 12:56 27/02/2002, you wrote: > D. Fogerson" > > > > > >I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in > the US for sale. Do > > >you have a price for it and what are the amps for > each unit? > > Saw it here in New Zealand. Asking price was > NZ$2800, which should > translate to about US$1200, give or take a couple of > hundred. > > > It's been shipping to everywhere EXCEPT the US > for months. Given all the new and overpowering > duties the FAA has for aviation safety, we should > expect and perhaps overlook the fact that it can > still take months to get one person's signature > on a piece of paper. After all, we wouldn't > want anyone to believe it was an EASY task, would > we? > > Bob . . . > > > > Forum - > Contributions of > any other form > > latest messages. > other List members. > > aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list > http://www.matronics.com/search > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://greetings.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Aeroelectric connection vs. CD Rom
> >Can someone describe the difference between the Aeroelectric connection >and the CD ROM? Is there a .pdf of the book on the CD, or is the CD >supplemental information? The CD is a mirror of the wbsite . . . if you have a slow internet connnection and then it's probably a good deal to get the ROM so you don't have to download all the articles. Further the CD Rom has a copy of AC43-13b and ammendments on it plus other data like fars. It includes a working copy of a CAD program that will open, edit and print all of our downloadable wirebook drawings. The CD will have updates to the 'Connection but not a complete book. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2002
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator windings
> >Bob, (or anyone else) >when you get some time, could you explain the >functional difference between Delta-wound and >Wye-wound alternators? I've read articles that claim >the reason car alternators can't be used in aircraft >is because they are Wye's, and airplanes need Delta's >(or maybe the other way 'round.) Sounds like baloney >to me. I'm always suspicious when someone states a >"fact," then doesn't support it with data or an >explanation. > >The only info I've uncovered was a short note in an >electrical handbook that stated a Wye-wound alternator >could be wired in such a way as to produce two >voltages at the same time. There are some tradeoffs for choosing one over the other and I'm not accurately conversant in all. In a Delta configuration, only one winding can be in conduction at any one time. Wye connection has two windings delivering power at any given time so each phase can be wound with fewer turns of heavier wire - and ease of manufacturing issue. Also, some alternator designs can take advantage of significant third harmonic wave form output at the center tap of the Wye connection . . . adding two more diodes to the rectifier array will increase output by as much as 10%.


February 14, 2002 - February 27, 2002

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ap