AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ap
February 14, 2002 - February 27, 2002
Oh, I understand. You were asking whether or not the control
lead (little wire) going into the back of the alternator had
absolute control over a runaway alternator. The answer in most
cases is no. What we're looking for in ov protection is
an absolute means for shutting off field current no mater what
else may have failed.
The control lead going into the back of modern alternators
is designed to interface with the car's systems management
computer . . . when everything is working, it is capable of
commanding the alternator OFF and ON. However, in every
case where I've been privy to the schematic for the regulator,
there were failure modes internal to the alternator which
bypass the control lead . . .
Externally regulated alternators get their field current from
the field breaker circuit. Opening the the field breaker
shuts that flame-throwing hummer right down. Internally
regulated alternators need the extra contactor to physically
disconnect the b-lead from the ship's system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker substitution |
>
>Bob,
>
>Just wondered what your thoughts are on substituting 7.5 amp breakers
>for the 5 amp field breakers for the main and SD8 alternators since I
>already have a couple of 7.5 breakers on hand.
>
>Dave Ford
I've not tested the our crowbar ov modules with the larger
breaker. When one of these gizmos triggers, the current flowing
in the crowbar module can exceed 300 amps for the milliseconds
that it takes to open the breaker. The time constant for a
7.5A breaker will be longer than for 5A . . .
Having said that, know that we tested our crowbar circuits with
a series of repetitive trip cycles. I suspect that in a real
ov situation needing a single trip cycle, the critters will be
okay. The risk is that should the ov module be overloaded,
it becomes a permanent short instead of a transient short.
The risk is to the ov module and not to the system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: LEDs for nav lights |
I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible
use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small
b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have
a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive
on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything.
Here is a link to an automotive adaptation that looks interesting:
<http://www.datasheets.led.net/Pages/15mm_auto_bayonet/137a.htm
It doesn't appear that they make a green one though...
I found an faa site that seemed to describe a typical output pattern
for a position light. Is it required that all position lights fit
that pattern?
Whelan is working on LED nav lights that the FAA would bless.
They have a TSO'd white fixture now but I think it's only available
in 28v and the price of these things would give you sticker-shock.
Also, it seems that LEDs may not measure as brightly (lumens of
output) as incandescents, but my impression is that since they radiate
at a specific frequency they are more "visible."
This is one place where the feds have pushed a certified aircraft
requirement off on amateur built aircraft. I belive nav and anti
collision lighting for night operations have to be "approved" . . .
I did have a builder a few years ago do his own fixtures and strobe
system and he took measurements with a light-meter to show that the
output from his system exceeded that of the approved systems.
He had all the data in hand when the inspector came out to look
over the airplane . . . but he never asked about it and the
builder didn't offer.
One more question: I have a canard pusher. Is it necessary that
I put the position lights on the wing tips, or can they be mounted
on the canard? The canard span is about 8.5". The wire run to the
canard would be shorter.
I think the inspector would pick up on this . . . the goal
in the certified world is to get them spaced as far apart
as possible on the airframe. . . . now, having said that,
go figure how it's legal and PRACTICAL to combine a white
light in the aft end of a single fixture with a wing tip
light . . . by the time you get close enough to visually
resolve the two lights into separate entities, you're
too close for the nav lights to have much practical use
in the classic sense.
In my not so humble opinion, nav lights are practically
useless anyhow . . . I'd MUCH rather use the energy burned
up by nav lights to drive strobes. If any kind of lighting
is going to help someone see and avoid you, it's got to
be strobes or wig-wags.
By the way, I recently purchased a copy of the 'connection, and I
am finding it to be a great read! It answers the vast majority of
the questions I have had about aircraft wiring.
I'm pleased that you find the work useful! It's been a real
education for me too. I've learned more about putting little
airplanes together by working with the amateur built community
than I ever did working on spam cans.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Chris Adkins" <ccadkins(at)dragg.net> |
Subject: | Diehl accessory case mounted alternator... |
Bob et. al.,
Do you recommend using a generic Ford regulator with the 20A alternator that
comes standard in most VW conversions using the Diehl Accessory Case
mounting system?
The "standard" part looks like a heat sink with possible some diodes epoxied
to the back side.
I'm just curious what your thinking is here. I've read, re-read, and
re-re-read the Aero-Electric Connection Book (Great work, BTW), and I'm
starting to have several seemingly silly questions, so please be patient!!!
Chris Adkins
Q2, T-IV VW
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | RE: Battery Buss(es) |
From: | "nknobil(at)gwi.net" <nknobil(at)gwi.net> |
Dear Listers,
While the notion of a battery buss, or in my case, dual battery busses is a fine
way of having non-switchable power to some devices, does anyone have any thoughts
about this (simpler) idea?
I'm thinking of simply hardwiring my electronic ignitions to the hot side of their
respective battery contactors, with circuit protection provided by fusible
links. In the words of E.B. "Lower parts count = higher reliability".
What say you folks out there?
Nick Knobil
RV 8 N80549
Bowdoinham, Maine
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu> |
>Bob,
Could you please steer me to where I might find the schematic for a dual
alternator, dual battery schematic? I have searched but have been unable
to find it. I believe it is on page Z-14 of your book.
Thanks,
Mark Steitle
> > This is an older version of IntelliCAD which used
> > to be available from their website at no cost by simply
> > registering. This program will open and edit the
> > drawing files which are also downloadable from my
> > website at:
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/articles/seminar.exe
> >
> > and
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe
> >
> > The drawings you'll find in these files will
> > probably represent 80-90% of the work necessary
> > to do your own page-per-system wirebook. You
> > can pick and chose from the various pages
> > to assemble a document that is easily modified
> > to match what you want do do.
> > want to do.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Diehl accessory case mounted |
alternator...
>
>Bob et. al.,
>Do you recommend using a generic Ford regulator with the 20A alternator that
>comes standard in most VW conversions using the Diehl Accessory Case
>mounting system?
>
>The "standard" part looks like a heat sink with possible some diodes epoxied
>to the back side.
>
>I'm just curious what your thinking is here. I've read, re-read, and
>re-re-read the Aero-Electric Connection Book (Great work, BTW), and I'm
>starting to have several seemingly silly questions, so please be patient!!!
I think the Diehl case mounts a permanent magnet altenrnator
like the Rotax. The regulator for this type of alternator
is a combination rectifier and regulator and very different
from the devices used with automotive style alternators.
I don't know what regulator Diehl recommends. I suspect
a Rotax (the big one for the 912/914) would work. A company
called Key West is reputed to offer a more rugged replacement
for the Rotax part. I think this may be a marine product for
outboards with PM alternators.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
>
>
> >Bob,
>Could you please steer me to where I might find the schematic for a dual
>alternator, dual battery schematic? I have searched but have been unable
>to find it. I believe it is on page Z-14 of your book.
>Thanks,
>Mark Steitle
Figure Z-4 in the older books, Figure Z-14 in the later
drawings which you can download at:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Graham Singleton <grasingleton(at)avnet.co.uk> |
Subject: | Re: LEDs for nav lights |
>I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible
>use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small
>b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have
>a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive
>on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything.
>
>Here is a link to an automotive adaptation that looks interesting:
>
><http://www.datasheets.led.net/Pages/15mm_auto_bayonet/137a.htm
>
>It doesn't appear that they make a green one though...
I think in the UK there are some green traffic lights that use LEDs so it
should be possible.
Graham
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Danny L. Smith" <dsmit132(at)bellsouth.net> |
Hi Gary,
I downloaded the TurboCad program and it looks good. Where do you get the
symbols files for electrical wiring, etc.?
Danny
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Liming
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: program
Just wanted to let the list know that I have been using the freebie
TurboCAD with Bob's drawings and it works just fine. They give you the 2D
version so that you'll like it and upgrade to the 3D version, but the 2D
version is complete and works fine. The program is compatible with AutoCAD
and several other formats.
They are at http://www.turbocad.com
Also, I made up a bunch of full size instrument panel templates that may
be printed and cut out and laid on the actual panel for a feel for how
they all fit together, if anyone wants them, send me an email.
> >I want to do a schematic drawing of my aircraft wiring. Does anyone know
of
> >a computer program that is used for aircraft wiring or related wiring
> >harnesses that will work?
>
>
> Download http://209.134.106.21/CAD/cad.pdf
> and http://209.134.106.21/CAD/cad.exe
> and http://209.134.106.21/CAD/cad.txt
>
> This is an older version of IntelliCAD which used
> to be available from their website at no cost by simply
> registering. This program will open and edit the
> drawing files which are also downloadable from my
> website at:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/seminar.exe
>
> and
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe
>
> The drawings you'll find in these files will
> probably represent 80-90% of the work necessary
> to do your own page-per-system wirebook. You
> can pick and chose from the various pages
> to assemble a document that is easily modified
> to match what you want do do.
> want to do.
>
>
> Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: LEDs for nav lights |
From: | James Freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net> |
snip
>> I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible
>> use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small
>> b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have
>> a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive
>> on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything.
>> snip
I'm also interested in this, and have actually ordered the lights from
Ledtronics. I ordered the 30 LED arrays in wide (120 degree viewable)
angle in red and green. I y returned them this week b/c they shipped the
wrong parts initially but hope to have them in my hands in the next few
weeks
They claim that a 15 led array is as bright as a 15 watt incandescent bulb,
but I am somewhat skeptical. I think what they really mean is that "on
axis" the narrow angle leds appear as bright as a bare 15w bulb. Of
course the dispersion of the wide angle means that they will appear less
bright. I hope that the 30 led array be bright enough, but I'm prepared
to double them up if necessary (still no more expensive than "real"
aircraft parts).
The parts I got were great looking, but had narrow angle leds in them
(15-20 degrees). They were discs slightly larger than a quarter and about
half an inch thick. They weigh essentially nothing. They are supplied
with wire leads about 8" long and have preinstalled resistors for the
12-14 volts of our planes. I just held the leads on the terminals of an
old shop battery and they easily put a bright circle of light on the wall
20' away. The green is a little yellowish to my eye but my wife said it
was definitely green.
They claim 1.2 watts each at 12v and that seems reasonable, although I
didn't actually put the meter on them. They generate no heat that I could
tell.
Because it was a custom order, they made me order 3 of each @45.00(I
figure I can sell the surplus easily enough if they work as advertised),
I'll post pictures when I get the correct parts ;)
The people at Ledtronics are nice enough, but terribly disorganized. To
get anything done (like placing an order, or getting an RMA#) requires
daily contact for a week or two, I've found that the triple-pronged
approach (phone, fax, and e-mail) works best.
James Freeman
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
>
>
>Hi Gary,
>I downloaded the TurboCad program and it looks good. Where do you get the
>symbols files for electrical wiring, etc.?
Download wirebook.exe and seminar.exe from Bob's temp website. Bob very
graciously provides all the symbols he uses in his drawings in there.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com> |
Subject: | Re: LEDs for nav lights |
Hello James,
that sounds very interesting, what housing will you put this babies in?
Very interested on this stuff
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: James Freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LEDs for nav lights
>
> snip
> >> I am new to the list, and I had a question about the possible
> >> use of LEDs as nav lights on my airplane. I have one of the small
> >> b&c alternators for the O-200 continental, and hence don't have
> >> a large power budget to play with. I did a search in the archive
> >> on the subject but wasn't able to come up with anything.
> >> snip
>
> I'm also interested in this, and have actually ordered the lights from
> Ledtronics. I ordered the 30 LED arrays in wide (120 degree viewable)
> angle in red and green. I y returned them this week b/c they shipped the
> wrong parts initially but hope to have them in my hands in the next few
> weeks
>
> They claim that a 15 led array is as bright as a 15 watt incandescent
bulb,
> but I am somewhat skeptical. I think what they really mean is that "on
> axis" the narrow angle leds appear as bright as a bare 15w bulb. Of
> course the dispersion of the wide angle means that they will appear less
> bright. I hope that the 30 led array be bright enough, but I'm prepared
> to double them up if necessary (still no more expensive than "real"
> aircraft parts).
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net> |
"RV List"
Subject: | Ammeter - how useful? |
I realize most of you with your spacious panels don't worry much about
this but maybe you can show some compassion for us few unfortunates.
Panel space on my RV3 is at a premium and if I was adding a separate
voltmeter it's no more space to make it a Volt/Ammeter. However, some
engine monitors I'm considering come with a voltmeter, which I see a use
for. Is there any compelling reason to try to add an ammeter to an
already crowded panel?
Thanks in advance, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu> |
Bob,
What I was hoping for was a file that I could open in TurboCad, similar to
those you provided last week. Thanks for all your expert help.
Mark Steitle
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >Bob,
> >Could you please steer me to where I might find the schematic for a dual
> >alternator, dual battery schematic? I have searched but have been unable
> >to find it. I believe it is on page Z-14 of your book.
> >Thanks,
> >Mark Steitle
>
>
> Figure Z-4 in the older books, Figure Z-14 in the later
> drawings which you can download at:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org> |
Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 02/14/02 |
>
> This is one place where the feds have pushed a certified aircraft
> requirement off on amateur built aircraft. I belive nav and anti
> collision lighting for night operations have to be "approved" . . .
I'd just like to follow up briefly on this. Before ordering my -6A, I called
the local FAA office and asked the inspector about the entire process.
He was very helpful. One thing he strongly stressed was that they wanted
TSO'd lights. It was the ONLY equipment he even mentioned.
If you're thinking of a non-TSO'd system, I'd talk to the local FAA office
about it ahead of time. It would be a real bummer to put in a system they
refuse to approve.
-Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Ammeter - how useful? |
A voltmeter would be enough to satisfy me.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> I realize most of you with your spacious panels don't worry
> much about this but maybe you can show some compassion for us
> few unfortunates.
> Panel space on my RV3 is at a premium and if I was adding a
> separate voltmeter it's no more space to make it a
> Volt/Ammeter. However, some engine monitors I'm considering
> come with a voltmeter, which I see a use for. Is there any
> compelling reason to try to add an ammeter to an already
> crowded panel?
>
> Thanks in advance, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | RE: Ammeter - how useful? |
>
>
>A voltmeter would be enough to satisfy me.
>
>David Swartzendruber
>Wichita
>
> > However, some engine monitors I'm considering
> > come with a voltmeter, which I see a use for. Is there any
> > compelling reason to try to add an ammeter to an already
> > crowded panel?
> >
> > Thanks in advance, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID
> >
Agreed . . . the reason one does a load analysis of the
ship's system (ability to LOAD the bus versus ability
of the alternator to CARRY the bus) is to show that
when everything is working as designed, no positioning
of panel controls will create a shortage of power.
As long as bus voltage is where it belongs you know
the alternator (even it it's crippled with an
open diode or the something is preventing the
regulator from providing full field voltage) is
presently carrying all the loads presently turned on.
May I suggest the following order of priority for
electrical system instrumentation?
(1) active notification of low voltage backed up by
ov protection - this tells you that the bus voltage
is within a operational window that makes for very
high probability of comfortable completion of flight.
(2) accurate voltmeter with 0.1 volt resolution. This
is you first best clue that something is amiss.
(3) alternator loadmeters are invaluable tools for
diagnosing problems when the voltmeter raises the
first red flag. I.e., will the alternator willingly
pick up a load in spite of it being too low? This
means the regulator is misadjusted or bad. Does
the bus voltage sag as loads are increased? Here's
where you could use . .
(4) alternator field voltmeter. This is a feature
included in our VLM-14 volt-loadmeter product.
If bus voltage is sagging and the alternator is
receiving less than full field, then the regulator
is bad . . . if the alternator is full fielded and
the voltage is low, the alternator is probably bad.
When the low voltage light comes on or you get an
ov trip, you can always get out the tools to make
measurements for (2), (3) and (4) when you get on
the ground. Sooooo . . . I'll suggest the minimum
instrumentation is covered in (1) and anything else
you choose to add will only make your relationship
with the machine more convenient.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
>
>Bob,
>What I was hoping for was a file that I could open in TurboCad, similar to
>those you provided last week. Thanks for all your expert help.
>Mark Steitle
Oh, I didn't understand. Try:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe
and
http://209.134.106.21/articles/wirebook.exe
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
>
>In a message dated 2/15/2002 8:32:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>jpl(at)showpage.org writes:
>
>
> > . One thing he strongly stressed was that they wanted
> > TSO'd lights. It was the ONLY equipment he even mentioned.
> >
> > If you're thinking of a non-TSO'd system, I'd talk to the local FAA office
> > about it ahead of time. It would be a real bummer to put in a system they
> > refuse to approve.
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> >
>
>The discussion of LED nav lights has gotten my wheels turning, and I think if
>I did a retro-fit on my already-flying RV, I would take it upon myself to
>deem it a _minor change_, and not notify anyone beyond making an airframe
>logbook entry. In other words, for you who aren't signed off yet, make the
>change later and keep flying... who says the Feds have to know everything?
Agreed . . . but I'll suggest a solid technical approach to
trying the new lighting. A simple photographer's light meter
will let you do a rough spherical survey of the TSO'd system before
you remove it from the airplane. You can use these measurements
as a baseline for anything you would propose as a replacement.
In fact, you can do measurements on the bench before you remove
anything from the airplane.
I'd have no problem whatsoever with advancing the state of the
art . . . your task is to show how your advancement is equal to
or better than what you're replacing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
The FAR 23.1389 spells out Position light distribution and intensities.
While FAR 23.1401 does the same for the Anticollision light system. No need
to measure, as they probably exceed the regs to pass.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED nav lights . . .
>
>In a message dated 2/15/2002 8:32:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>jpl(at)showpage.org writes:
>
>
> > . One thing he strongly stressed was that they wanted
> > TSO'd lights. It was the ONLY equipment he even mentioned.
> >
> > If you're thinking of a non-TSO'd system, I'd talk to the local FAA
office
> > about it ahead of time. It would be a real bummer to put in a system
they
> > refuse to approve.
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> >
>
>The discussion of LED nav lights has gotten my wheels turning, and I think
if
>I did a retro-fit on my already-flying RV, I would take it upon myself to
>deem it a _minor change_, and not notify anyone beyond making an airframe
>logbook entry. In other words, for you who aren't signed off yet, make the
>change later and keep flying... who says the Feds have to know everything?
Agreed . . . but I'll suggest a solid technical approach to
trying the new lighting. A simple photographer's light meter
will let you do a rough spherical survey of the TSO'd system before
you remove it from the airplane. You can use these measurements
as a baseline for anything you would propose as a replacement.
In fact, you can do measurements on the bench before you remove
anything from the airplane.
I'd have no problem whatsoever with advancing the state of the
art . . . your task is to show how your advancement is equal to
or better than what you're replacing.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
Subject: | autolight alternator |
Bob,
I recently purchased an engine from a Cassna 177 to put in a homebuilt.
The alternator on it seems to be an autolight unit and it has a field
terminal. I would like to replace this ironmongery with a B&C unit
eventually, but don't want to spend the money just now. I'm wondering
what regulator to use. I would use the B&C regulator if it will work
with this alternator, so as to be ready for the B&C alternator.
Otherwise what regulator should I go with?
regards and TIA
Jim Bean
RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert Marshall" <robert.marshall(at)bluewin.ch> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
I have just selected LED Nav lights for a new aircraft I am working on at
work. The meet all the FAR 23 requirements but unfortunately they are rated
for 28V.
It can't be that difficult to adopt the power input for 12V, although I
suspect they might be a bit expensive.
http://www.goodrich-hella.com/#
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mprather(at)hostpro.net |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
So your interpretation of the regs is that they are minimums...IE,
if they are at least as bright or brighter than the example chart
shown than you are good to go? That would be cool.
I agree with Mr. Nuckolls idea of using a simple photographic light
meter for verification. I am pretty sure that it would be fairly
easy to eliminate nulls in the output by placing enough bulbs in the
fixture. You wouldn't know whether you had accomplished your goal
unless you did a little instrumentation. I think you could dang-near
cover the airplane in LED's and still use less power than the blessed
incandescents.
This probably wouldn't be all that large an issue, except that I am
paranoid about flying into some field after sundown and capturing
that attention of some friendly aviation administration personnel with
my very cool (literally), but slightly different looking light display.
At least if you had done a little homework up front you might satisfy
whomever started asking questions. I think its a matter of at what
point you want to deal with the hassle.
I, however, do agree that all of this is kind of nonsense since strobes
are about 50x (at least) more visible.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Date: Friday, February 15, 2002 9:23 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED nav lights . . .
>
> The FAR 23.1389 spells out Position light distribution and
> intensities.While FAR 23.1401 does the same for the Anticollision
> light system. No need
> to measure, as they probably exceed the regs to pass.
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> I'd have no problem whatsoever with advancing the state of the
> art . . . your task is to show how your advancement is equal to
> or better than what you're replacing.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
>
>The FAR 23.1389 spells out Position light distribution and intensities.
>While FAR 23.1401 does the same for the Anticollision light system. No need
>to measure, as they probably exceed the regs to pass.
Not and issue with articles already TSOed and part of
any certificated installation . . . we were talking about
a scientific approach to alternative systems developed
with the notion of doing-better-for-less on an experimental
airplane. A builder's rational for making the equal-to-or-
better case is to measure the system he intends
to replace with a suitable instrument and then repeat the
measurement on the alternative system with the SAME instrument.
We can eliminate the variable of absolute calibration of
the measuring device in that we're using it only to make
a comparative judgement between two systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
>
>
>I have just selected LED Nav lights for a new aircraft I am working on at
>work. The meet all the FAR 23 requirements but unfortunately they are rated
>for 28V.
>It can't be that difficult to adopt the power input for 12V, although I
>suspect they might be a bit expensive.
Can you share manufacturer and part numbers with us?
Haven't followed these products closely . . . I know
of an effort to put a white LED light on the Beechjet
and it stands to reason that the same folk (Whelan) would
be following up as soon as possible with the other colors.
Your note suggests that all three colors are now available.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert Marshall" <robert.marshall(at)bluewin.ch> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
Sorry I thought I attached a link to Goodrich Hella.
Hella are a German Company more famous for their automotive products who
have sold their aerospace business to Goodrich. The also make HID or Xenon
Landing and Taxi lights that use a fraction of the power of incandescents,
but require a power supply module within 17" of the lamp. As seen on BMW's
and other large German cars.
Here's the link again:
http://www.goodrich-hella.com/
Part Nos Part No. Red = 2LA 455 358-xx and Part No. Green = 2LA 455 359-xx
By the way Bob I have been off the list for a while and a few months ago you
were talking of posting a Electrical Load Analysis method, did anything come
of that, should I search the archive ?
Bob M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED nav lights . . .
>
> >
> >
> >I have just selected LED Nav lights for a new aircraft I am working on at
> >work. The meet all the FAR 23 requirements but unfortunately they are
rated
> >for 28V.
> >It can't be that difficult to adopt the power input for 12V, although I
> >suspect they might be a bit expensive.
>
> Can you share manufacturer and part numbers with us?
> Haven't followed these products closely . . . I know
> of an effort to put a white LED light on the Beechjet
> and it stands to reason that the same folk (Whelan) would
> be following up as soon as possible with the other colors.
> Your note suggests that all three colors are now available.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jim Burley <j.r.burley(at)larc.nasa.gov> |
For those Mac user out there...
Take a look at CADintosh - it's very capable for a low cost ($30) CAD
shareware package. only problem I've found is it only reads DXF
files, not DWG. In fact, every CAD program I've used on the Mac -
even the expensive ones, have this problem.
Would you or someone on this list be willing to post the "wirebook"
files in DXF format? It would really make us Mac users happy!
Jim Burley
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
Subject: | Re: LED nav lights . . . |
Robert Marshall wrote:
>
> Sorry I thought I attached a link to Goodrich Hella.
> Hella are a German Company more famous for their automotive products who
> have sold their aerospace business to Goodrich. The also make HID or Xenon
> Landing and Taxi lights that use a fraction of the power of incandescents,
> but require a power supply module within 17" of the lamp. As seen on BMW's
> and other large German cars.
Eaa sent out a not a month or so ago, most of the automotive
HID lights are the same color as daylight (blue-white) they
are nearly invisble if used as day time recognition.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak".
Bill Mills
>
>For those Mac user out there...
>
>Take a look at CADintosh - it's very capable for a low cost ($30) CAD
>shareware package. only problem I've found is it only reads DXF
>files, not DWG. In fact, every CAD program I've used on the Mac -
>even the expensive ones, have this problem.
>
>Would you or someone on this list be willing to post the "wirebook"
>files in DXF format? It would really make us Mac users happy!
>
>Jim Burley
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: autolight alternator |
>
>Bob,
>I recently purchased an engine from a Cassna 177 to put in a homebuilt.
>The alternator on it seems to be an autolight unit and it has a field
>terminal. I would like to replace this ironmongery with a B&C unit
>eventually, but don't want to spend the money just now. I'm wondering
>what regulator to use. I would use the B&C regulator if it will work
>with this alternator, so as to be ready for the B&C alternator.
>Otherwise what regulator should I go with?
>regards and TIA
>Jim Bean
>RV-8
The LR3 series regulators will work fine with this
alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
>
>
>
>I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak".
>
>Bill Mills
The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read
a generic ZIP file? I could post both types.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Cheap Crimpers on Ebay |
Hello,
I was wandering around Ebay looking for TV stuff, and found what seems to
be a Sargent ratchet crimper - for $19 plus shipping. I grabbed one. They
have two more. They didn't say what brand it was, but they had a picture.
AFAIK, Taiwan Inc. has not gotten around to cloning this particular tool.
Last year, Light Plane Maintenance had a crimper shoot-out, and this one
scored among the highest, just under AMP. The local electronics shop
had'em, but they were $80, I couldn't afford them.
Anyway, just thought I'd pass on the deal, if anybody was interested. I
have no relation to the seller. Ebay auction #s are 1332933630 &
1332933824. Of course, the die that comes with them are useless for
aircraft work, you'd have to get the PIDG and maybe RG58/59 dies for it
to be any use. But its a good deal just for the frame. IF, of course it
really is a Sargent ( I've been fooled before :) ).
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kevin Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak".
>>
>>Bill Mills
>
> The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read
> a generic ZIP file? I could post both types.
>
> Bob . . .
>
The standard freeware Mac decompression program (Stuffit Expander)
handles ZIP files just fine. I too would love to get the wirebooks
in DXF format.
Thanks for all the time and expertise you dontate Bob.
Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Cheap Crimpers on Ebay |
I looked at Ebay and the handle on these crimpers says Augat LRC. Does that
help?
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
do no archive
> Hello,
>
> I was wandering around Ebay looking for TV stuff, and found what seems
to
> be a Sargent ratchet crimper - for $19 plus shipping. I grabbed one.
They
> have two more. They didn't say what brand it was, but they had a picture.
> AFAIK, Taiwan Inc. has not gotten around to cloning this particular tool.
> Last year, Light Plane Maintenance had a crimper shoot-out, and this one
> scored among the highest, just under AMP. The local electronics shop
> had'em, but they were $80, I couldn't afford them.
>
> Anyway, just thought I'd pass on the deal, if anybody was interested.
I
> have no relation to the seller. Ebay auction #s are 1332933630 &
> 1332933824. Of course, the die that comes with them are useless for
> aircraft work, you'd have to get the PIDG and maybe RG58/59 dies for it
> to be any use. But its a good deal just for the frame. IF, of course it
> really is a Sargent ( I've been fooled before :) ).
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Subject: | Re: current limiter |
Bob
If I use the ANL current limiters for both my alternators, which
ones do I use? I will be using the B&C 40 amp alternator as
primary and the pad mounted 20 amp alt. as secondary. These
ANL's come in 60 and 40 amp rated. Would I use the 60A for the
40 amp alt and the 40A for the 20 amp alternator?
Jim Robinson
using Fig z-4
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Cheap Crimpers on Ebay |
David Swartzendruber wrote:
>
>
> I looked at Ebay and the handle on these crimpers says Augat LRC. Does that
> help?
>
*** Well, Augat is a manufacturer of high-quality connectors. Machined-pin
IC sockets, that sort of thing. They may have had Sargent house-brand it
for them. I'll see when mine arrives...
- Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Is there a source for determining wire sizes for specific loads and
length of runs.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Jim -
Yes.
Bob Nuckoll's "how-to" book "The AeroElectric Connection" has a full
chapter on wire selection and installation.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html#aec9
for a complete list of what's in the book (17 chapters and appendix Z).
Bill Mills
RANS Courier in progress
SF bay area Calif.
>
>
>Is there a source for determining wire sizes for specific loads and
>length of runs.
>
>Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Thanks
I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that
page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
Anyone know a source for dual fuel gage (2" 1/4) with non-crossing pointers
?
Sorry if this in the wrong place to ask.
Any comments appreciated.
Thanks,
Gilles Thesee
MCR 4 seater panel in progress.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Dual fuel gage |
Rochester Gauges in Dallas, Texas makes one that's used in the new Cessna's.
I don't know if they'll sell them to other people or not.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
> Anyone know a source for dual fuel gage (2" 1/4) with non-crossing
pointers
> ?
> Sorry if this in the wrong place to ask.
>
> Any comments appreciated.
> Thanks,
>
> Gilles Thesee
> MCR 4 seater panel in progress.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Eric Kaltenbacher" <ekalten1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
Subject: | Cessna Wiring Diagrams |
I'm looking for a schematic showing the wiring of the instrument
panel in a 1978 Cessa 152 Aerobat. I was hoping to find this
information
in electronic format on the web. Do any of you know where I might
be able to find it.
Thank you!
Eric Kaltenbacher
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Subject: | Disconnecting electrics |
">Another question comes to mind. I believe that you and B&C sell
onlyfemale>PDIG fastons. I would like to find some male ones but have not.
Can you>tell me a source? I want to use them as disconnects at the wing
root for>wires in the wing. Is that considered satisfactory or bad?
I have male PIDG style connectors I ordered in to look at.
They DO have metallic insulation support. They're a Waldom-Molex part. I'm
writing up a short article about them that will be published on the website.
I don't recommend them. The knife splices are far superior for this task.
In the mean time take a peek at:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice1.jpg
http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice2.jpg
http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/FastOnMale.jpg
If you really want the male fast-ons, I'm going to sell the ones that I
have for what I've got in them. A bag of 20 pieces is $10 each postage paid.
I have red and blue sizes. Bob . . ."
Bob:
I have pondered this exchange, and agree that PIDGs are not the
way to go for wingroot separators. I very much like your recommendation for
knife-splice connectors, particularly behind inst. panel and other irregular
disconnections. However, the Europa will call for disconnects every sojourn
and this means much fingerwork and flexing over a year.
Rather than the knife splice [which CAN be covered with
heatshrink, but not every flight], cannot I use your suggested 9- or 15pin
RS232 connectors if suitably goobered with your Shoo Goo and perhaps
anchored with clips for flight? Any alternative?
Ferg
diesel Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Disconnecting electrics |
>
>">Another question comes to mind. I believe that you and B&C sell
>onlyfemale>PDIG fastons. I would like to find some male ones but have not.
>Can you>tell me a source? I want to use them as disconnects at the wing
>root for>wires in the wing. Is that considered satisfactory or bad?
> I have male PIDG style connectors I ordered in to look at.
>They DO have metallic insulation support. They're a Waldom-Molex part. I'm
>writing up a short article about them that will be published on the website.
>I don't recommend them. The knife splices are far superior for this task.
>In the mean time take a peek at:
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice1.jpg
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/KnifeSplice2.jpg
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/KnifeSplice/FastOnMale.jpg
> If you really want the male fast-ons, I'm going to sell the ones that I
>have for what I've got in them. A bag of 20 pieces is $10 each postage paid.
>I have red and blue sizes. Bob . . ."
>
>Bob:
> I have pondered this exchange, and agree that PIDGs are not the
>way to go for wingroot separators. I very much like your recommendation for
>knife-splice connectors, particularly behind inst. panel and other irregular
>disconnections. However, the Europa will call for disconnects every sojourn
>and this means much fingerwork and flexing over a year.
> Rather than the knife splice [which CAN be covered with
>heatshrink, but not every flight], cannot I use your suggested 9- or 15pin
>RS232 connectors if suitably goobered with your Shoo Goo and perhaps
>anchored with clips for flight? Any alternative?
If you need multiple and routine mate/de-mate operations for
wiring, consider real connector of some kind. The D-subs are
an option. You can parallel pins for higher current operations
in some wires like landing light and nav lights. Don't know
that I'd use Shoo-Goo in this application. It made sense
were we want to reduce the bulk of the connector in the confined
quarters occupied by a trim actuator. For your portable-airplane,
wing root connectors, I'd use full up connector hoods to strain
relieve the wire bundles.
I've been planning an edition of Shop Notes on this subject.
I'll try to get that written and published in the next week or so.
Bob . . .
>Ferg
>diesel Europa A064
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------
TEMPORARY WEBSITE ADDRESS:
http://209.134.106.21
--------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Cessna Wiring Diagrams |
>
>
>I'm looking for a schematic showing the wiring of the instrument
>panel in a 1978 Cessa 152 Aerobat. I was hoping to find this
>information
>in electronic format on the web. Do any of you know where I might
>be able to find it.
>
>Thank you!
>Eric Kaltenbacher
These drawings are proprietary content and format published
by Cessna in the Maintenance manual for the airplane. Cessna
uses page/per/system drawings serialized to the specific
airplane.
I think you can order the Maintenance manual from the
Cessna Service parts folks on CD Rom for a pretty
reasonable fee.
If that doesn't work, see if a local FBO will let you
photocopy the necessary pages from a book or shoot you
copies from his micro film edition. I don't think it would
involve more than a dozen pages . . . that airplane doesn't
have much wire in it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
>
>Thanks
>I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that
>page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps.
>
>Jim
Jim, those pages are in chapter 8 which are not downloadable
from the website. Tell me which pages you need and I'll mail
them to you. Your chapter 8 should be a total of 8 sheets of
paper printed both sides for a total of 16 pages.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
Subject: | Re: Disconnecting electrics |
Fergus;
For an alternative this is a more costly route but try looking at this web site;
http://www.amphenol-aerospace.com/viewer1.asp?target="_blank"
These connectors are purpose built for what you want to do.
Bob McC
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> Rather than the knife splice [which CAN be covered with
> heatshrink, but not every flight], cannot I use your suggested 9- or 15pin
> RS232 connectors if suitably goobered with your Shoo Goo and perhaps
> anchored with clips for flight? Any alternative?
> Ferg
> diesel Europa A064
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Disconnecting electrics |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> If you need multiple and routine mate/de-mate operations for
> wiring, consider real connector of some kind. The D-subs are
> an option.
*** If I was doing this, I'd be tempted to use some sort of multiple
banana plug connector. I've used "GR Plugs" for years in automotive amateur
radio applications. These are two banana plugs spaced 3/4 inch apart with
matching banana jacks on the back end. Their one disadvantage is that they
don't have anything to prevent you from plugging them in backwards.
I say this because banana plugs can tolerate an amazing amount of abuse.
I have NEVER seen one go intermittant. And I have put 20 amps through a GR
plug, and it never even got warm.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
>
>
> >
> >
> >Thanks
> >I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that
> >page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps.
> >
> >Jim
>
>
> Jim, those pages are in chapter 8 which are not downloadable
> from the website. Tell me which pages you need and I'll mail
> them to you. Your chapter 8 should be a total of 8 sheets of
> paper printed both sides for a total of 16 pages.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Bob
Do you mean in my original AeroElectric connection book? I can't
seem to put my fingers on that right now. I will continue to look.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
>
>
> >
> >
> >Thanks
> >I see why I didn't find it in my new Aeroelectric connection, that
> >page didn't print. I will re download a few pages to fill the gaps.
> >
> >Jim
>
>
> Jim, those pages are in chapter 8 which are not downloadable
> from the website. Tell me which pages you need and I'll mail
> them to you. Your chapter 8 should be a total of 8 sheets of
> paper printed both sides for a total of 16 pages.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob
I found my book and the chapter 8. Thanks. I had put it away after
the Salt Lake City seminar and forgot where I put it. Thanks again
for the heads-up.
> Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
Bob -
I have downloaded the wirebook.exe file. When I try to open it I get:
"the document 'wirebook.exe' could not be opened because the
application program that created it could not be found".
I did a "google" search to find a downloadable program on zip files
and downloaded "winzip81.exe" thinking I may be able to un-zip
SOMETHING by myself, but am still unable to open the document.
I'm fumbling in the dark here - will call the family computer-guy for help.
Thank you -
Bill
> The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read
> a generic ZIP file? I could post both types.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | landing light relays? |
From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Wondering what type of relay to use for a 100 W landing light (controlled
from Infinity stick grip)? I was looking at a relay in Radio Shack
yesterday rated for 10 A @12 VDC. This would be enough for the
continuous currrent draw of a 100 W bulb, but due to the inrush current I
seem to recall 'Lectric Bob recommending toggle switches rated for at 20
A. Assuming the same applies to a relay (??), can anybody recommend a
good source for such a critter? I prefer a double pole single throw
since I plan to power both the landing and taxi lights (on separate
circuits) with a single button on the stick grip.
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A finish kit stuff...
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Disconnecting electrics |
Hi Fergus: Suggestion, Bob and several other listers suggested that I look
into AMP's Circular Plastic Connectors recently for instrument panel
disconnects. I ordered some from Mouser Electronics and I am very favorably
impressed with their quality and reasonable cost. Check
http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com or call their technical support center at
1-800-522-6752 and ask for their catalog 82021. It's loaded with helpful
information.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Subject: | Belated List of Contributors #2... |
Dear Listers,
I'd like to apologize for the delay in posting the 2001 List of
Contributors Number 2, as well as getting behind in the List Photo
Shares. Here's my sad story... Over the Christmas holidays, I was working
out in the shop on a rotating drum sander. I was sanding out the woofer
hole in a speaker enclosure and, long story short, the part got away from
me and started spinning like a Hula hoop on the drum. Rather than just
turning the machine off like I should have done, I tried to grab the part
and in the process badly broke the ring fingers on *both* my right and left
hands!! I had to go in for surgery on the left hand because of the joint
damage and was stuck in a thing called an "external fixator" for almost 4
weeks. The right hand has healed up well, but the left one is very stiff
and I'm currently only getting about 70 degrees of bend. The doctor says
that I will get 80-90% of the moment back with a great deal of therapy and
I'm going to hold them to that...
The moral of the story is that even a sander can be a dangerous tool. I
had been working with a table saw, drill press, scroll saw, and high power
routers all day long and afforded them all the respect they deserved. But
with the sander, I never even thought about how things could go bad. It
just didn't seem like a dangerous tool. Be careful out there in the
shop. In a moment you can hurt yourself; hurt yourself in such a way that
you will have to live with the damage the rest of your life. Nothing is
worth that.
I'm finally back working on the computer and getting back to email and
other stuff. Later today I will be processing the mound of Photo Shares
that have backed up while I was out. I also just finished up the 2001 List
Contributions and have included the List Number 2 below.
I want to thank everyone that has so generously contributed to the List
this past year! It is your Contributions that make these Lists possible.
I understand that the Van's Videos from the Builder's Bookstore should be
shipping very soon if not already, and the discount coupons from Brown
Tools should already have arrived. Thanks again to Andy Gold and Michael
Brown for their generous support of the Lists this year with these giveaways!
Oh, and now that my fingers are working pretty well again, I've decided to
go ahead and finish my RV-4!! I had a LOT of guilt over wanting to sell
it... :-)
Happy Building and Flying!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
Alexander, Don
Alexander, George
Andrews, Jim
Anonymous
Blake, James
Bowman, John
Buryl, Hill
Butler, Sherman
Cantrell, Jimmy
DeRuiter, Marcel
Deffner, David
Graumlich, Tom
Griffin, Randy
Harbour, Keith
Hunt, Robin
Jannon, Terence
Johnson, Jackie
Kahn, Steve
Labhart, Norm
Laird, David
Larson, Joe
Licking, Larry
Maynard, Brad
Navratil, Richard
Noonan, Thomas
Petersen, Paul
Reed, Gary
Rogers, Ken
Salter, Phillip
Schmit, John
Schultz, David
Sheffield, Ray
Smith, Edmond
Staley, Dick
Utterback, Tom
Uvanni, Bruce
Williams, Henry
Wilson, Robert
Woodward, Don
Worthington, Victor
Zirges, Malcom
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Subject: | Re: RE: a few questions f |
I am using circuit breakers ( don't stone me for this) and I wonder
how to incorporate this into the z4 drawing. The drawing says to
keep the 10AWG wire to the aux/main battery busses 6" or less.
There is no way to do this with that wire coming to the CB panel
approx 2 ft. from the firewall. Also the main/aux pwr bus has a
4AWG wire feeding each of these. These feed wires do not have
protection. Is that because they are oversized to begin with and
short in length the way they are utilized in the diagram? If these
wires were 2.5 ft in length would that change the rational?
Could I size these feed wires more closely to the load requirement?
Jim Robinson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I'd also like to see the wirebook, etc translated into "mac-speak".
> >>
> >>Bill Mills
> >
> > The files are self extracting ZIP files . . . can you read
> > a generic ZIP file? I could post both types.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>The standard freeware Mac decompression program (Stuffit Expander)
>handles ZIP files just fine. I too would love to get the wirebooks
>in DXF format.
I've not looked over the two drawing files on the wesite
for awhile. I'll see if I can take a sort of best-of collection
of the AutoCADs and .dxf the hummers . . . better yet,
can your MAC CAD program read .dwg AutoCADs? If so, all I need
to do is zip the basic cad drawings without converting to .dxf.
While better than a start from scratch, .dxf files will
lose some nuances of appearance in the originals when sucked into
other cad programs.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
>
>
>Bob -
>
>I have downloaded the wirebook.exe file. When I try to open it I get:
>"the document 'wirebook.exe' could not be opened because the
>application program that created it could not be found".
>
>I did a "google" search to find a downloadable program on zip files
>and downloaded "winzip81.exe" thinking I may be able to un-zip
>SOMETHING by myself, but am still unable to open the document.
>I'm fumbling in the dark here - will call the family computer-guy for help.
>
>Thank you -
>Bill
If your running a MAC, the self-extracting wirebook.exe will
not unfold itself. If you can UNZIP files with a MAC friendly
program, then what you will end up with are .dwg files unique
to AutoCAD and shared with a lot of other applications.
IF you can UNzip . . I can easily post the same drawings
as a collection of .dwg in a .zip. If your CAD program won't
open AutoCAD .dwg files, then I'll have to convert to .dxf
or .iges files . . . very large and not 100% portable to
other CAD programs . . . but still useful perhaps. You need
to find out if you can open a .dwg file. Download this
and try it.
http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG
If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then
it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection
with non-self-extracting .zip files.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: landing light relays? |
>
>Wondering what type of relay to use for a 100 W landing light (controlled
>from Infinity stick grip)? I was looking at a relay in Radio Shack
>yesterday rated for 10 A @12 VDC. This would be enough for the
>continuous currrent draw of a 100 W bulb, but due to the inrush current I
>seem to recall 'Lectric Bob recommending toggle switches rated for at 20
>A. Assuming the same applies to a relay (??), can anybody recommend a
>good source for such a critter? I prefer a double pole single throw
>since I plan to power both the landing and taxi lights (on separate
>circuits) with a single button on the stick grip.
>
>Thanks,
Radio Shack stocks a 20-30A relay that might be billed
as a headlight or horn relay. It's about a 1" black
plastic cube and may also have a mounting bracket
on it. It's a close cousin to our S704-1 relays
you can see at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/switch.html#s704-1
If it were my airplane, this is the relay I'd use.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
No joy Bob -
When I go to open it in my Appleworks program it still comes out
"hieroglyphics".
I need to find a CAD program that'll work on these files but don't
wish to spend the time - considering my very small needs.
Since you've supplied me with all the drawings I need for my wirebook
I may simply do it the old fashioned way. When I was at your seminar
at Livermore you showed us how to put drawings onto graph paper and
copy them(sans gridwork). My RANS Courier is stone simple and this
will work fine for me.
Thank you -
Bill Mills
RANS Courier in progress
SF bay area Calif.
> If your running a MAC, the self-extracting wirebook.exe will
> not unfold itself. If you can UNZIP files with a MAC friendly
> program, then what you will end up with are .dwg files unique
> to AutoCAD and shared with a lot of other applications.
>
> IF you can UNzip . . I can easily post the same drawings
> as a collection of .dwg in a .zip. If your CAD program won't
> open AutoCAD .dwg files, then I'll have to convert to .dxf
> or .iges files . . . very large and not 100% portable to
> other CAD programs . . . but still useful perhaps. You need
> to find out if you can open a .dwg file. Download this
> and try it.
>
> http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG
>
> If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then
> it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection
> with non-self-extracting .zip files.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Dual fuel gage |
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "David Swartzendruber"
:
Envoy : dimanche 17 fvrier 2002 02:31
Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual fuel gage
>
> Rochester Gauges in Dallas, Texas makes one that's used in the new
Cessna's.
> I don't know if they'll sell them to other people or not.
>
David
Thanks for the info. I'll check their website.
Cheers,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kevin & Theresa Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
>
>
>>
>>
>>Bob -
>>
>>I have downloaded the wirebook.exe file. When I try to open it I get:
>>"the document 'wirebook.exe' could not be opened because the
>>application program that created it could not be found".
>>
>>I did a "google" search to find a downloadable program on zip files
>>and downloaded "winzip81.exe" thinking I may be able to un-zip
>>SOMETHING by myself, but am still unable to open the document.
>>I'm fumbling in the dark here - will call the family computer-guy for help.
>>
>>Thank you -
>>Bill
>
>
> If your running a MAC, the self-extracting wirebook.exe will
> not unfold itself. If you can UNZIP files with a MAC friendly
> program, then what you will end up with are .dwg files unique
> to AutoCAD and shared with a lot of other applications.
>
> IF you can UNzip . . I can easily post the same drawings
> as a collection of .dwg in a .zip. If your CAD program won't
> open AutoCAD .dwg files, then I'll have to convert to .dxf
> or .iges files . . . very large and not 100% portable to
> other CAD programs . . . but still useful perhaps. You need
> to find out if you can open a .dwg file. Download this
> and try it.
>
> http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG
>
> If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then
> it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection
> with non-self-extracting .zip files.
>
> Bob . . .
>
You are correct that the self-extracting .exe won't run on a Mac, but
Stuffit Expander (the most common free Mac file decompression
utility) is smart enough to extract the compressed files and expand
them. All you have to do is drag the .exe file to the Stuffit
Expander icon, and let it do its magic. The problem is that I can't
find a cheap Mac program that can read .dwg files.
Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
Kevin -
I used stuffit to extract the files - this works ok and I get a
folder on the desktop with ten different goodies, four of them
drawings.
When I click on any of them (except the READ_ME.TXT, I get: "this
file is too large to open in simple text". If I try to open it in
appleworks I get the hieroglyphics. On some of them I get "could not
find the application . . . "
As the man once said "if it's not on fire it's a software problem".
Thank you -
Bill (got dem ol' "betamax" blues) Mills
>You are correct that the self-extracting .exe won't run on a Mac, but
>Stuffit Expander (the most common free Mac file decompression
>utility) is smart enough to extract the compressed files and expand
>them. All you have to do is drag the .exe file to the Stuffit
>Expander icon, and let it do its magic. The problem is that I can't
>find a cheap Mac program that can read .dwg files.
>
>Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rswan19(at)comcast.net |
Subject: | Re: landing light relays? |
You might want to check Jameco Electronics, they have a large assortment of
relays at very good prices. They also have sockets with the diode already
mounted. Here is the ones I used for my flap relays, they have 12v 40 amp
contacts.
https://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=91523;722;
R
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Keith Hughes" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | basic schematic help |
I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I
found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept,
but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the
pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The
schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive,
negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight.
In over my head,
Keith Hughes
RV-6, Denver
(66 degrees and sunny)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | re: Breakers vs. fuses on the battery bus . . . |
>
>
>I am using circuit breakers ( don't stone me for this) and I wonder
>how to incorporate this into the z4 drawing. The drawing says to
>keep the 10AWG wire to the aux/main battery busses 6" or less.
>There is no way to do this with that wire coming to the CB panel
>approx 2 ft. from the firewall.
This shouldn't be a problem . . . battery busses are
right next to the battery . . . whether you use fuses
or breakers is immaterial. The bizjets have LOTS of
breakers that are NOT in the cockpit . . . battery busses
are one of them.
> Also the main/aux pwr bus has a
>4AWG wire feeding each of these. These feed wires do not have
>protection. Is that because they are oversized to begin with and
>short in length the way they are utilized in the diagram? If these
>wires were 2.5 ft in length would that change the rational?
>Could I size these feed wires more closely to the load requirement?
These wires don't need protection because they are main feeders
that tend to burn clear as opposed to hard faulting to ground.
In areas where there is mechanical risk of hard faulting, we
simply provide extra care in routing and protecting the wire.
They should be sized for the full output rating of your
alternator that feeds that particular bus. And SD-20 main
feed could drop to 10AWG, but I'd leave the other one
at 4AWG.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Hebeard2(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Disconnecting electrics |
Bob or anyone,
Would the Radio Shack polarized connectors be suitable for wing root
disconnects? (p/n 274-151 male, 274-154 female at $.99 each) They are rated
at 20 amps and cannot be connected the wrong way, and as the name says are
interlocked.
Harley Beard RV-6A finish kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com> |
Subject: | Re: basic schematic help |
>
> I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept
2001(I
> found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically
inept,
> but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the
> pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The
> schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive,
> negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight.
>
> In over my head,
Hi Kieth.
First, (according my Maplin catalogue) the LM358 has two op amps on the
chip. If your circuit only needs one op amp you can ignore your spare one
(three of the terminals).
This leaves you five terminals. Three are the op amp terminals on the
schematic, i.e. -IN (inverting), +IN (non inverting) and OUTPUT. The
remaining two terminals are for the power supply, i.e +Vs and ground. Op
amps always need a power supply, but these are sometimes omitted on
schematics.
Assuming you have the DIL package, hold it facing you with the little half
moon cut out at the top. Then number the terminals 1,2,3,4, from top to
bottom on the left side, and 8,7,6,5 from top to bottom on the right hand
side. The pinout is then:
1 OUTPUT
2 -IN
3 +IN
4 -Vs (ground)
8 +Vs (power)
5,6&7 are for the second op amp.
Hope this helps.
Piers
P.S, I haven't used a LM358 myself, the above pinout information is from the
Maplin catalogue.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com> |
Subject: | Re: basic schematic help |
Oops...
Sorry Keith, I spelt your name wrong.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "lehmansmtl" <lehmansmtl(at)netzero.com> |
Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 02/17/02 |
'AeroElectric-List Digest Server' wrote:=0A=0A- *
- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
- ---
- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/17/02: 25
-
-
-
_______
- From: "Eric Kaltenbach ...'=0A=0A=0A> Take a look to the attachment. =0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Disconnecting electrics |
If you want a locking, sealed connector with high quality contacts,
check out the Duetsch Industrial line of connectors at www.laddinc.com.
The DTM series are fairly compact and handle up to 7.5 amps per pin.
The DT series are a little bigger, but handle up to 13 amps per pin.
Both use solid pins crimped with a Daniels type crimper. If you don't
need it sealed, the AMP CPC connectors are a good choice as someone else
mentioned. AMP is also starting to offer certain sizes of the CPC
connectors in a sealed version.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> Bob or anyone,
>
> Would the Radio Shack polarized connectors be suitable for wing root
> disconnects? (p/n 274-151 male, 274-154 female at $.99 each)
> They are rated
> at 20 amps and cannot be connected the wrong way, and as the
> name says are
> interlocked.
> Harley Beard RV-6A finish kit.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: basic schematic help |
>
>I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I
>found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept,
>but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the
>pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The
>schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive,
>negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight.
Integrated circuits have some means of identifying
the #1 pin. This may be a little dot painted or molded
into the top surface. Some ICs have a notch or recess
molded into the end of the chip adjacent to the #1 pin.
While looking down on the TOP of any chip with the long
dimension horizontal, the #1 pin is always in the upper
right or lower left corner. Use the notch, recess, dot
etc to determine whether it's right or left end.
Starting with #1, count away from the pin on the same
side to the far end then go around the corner and count
back to the other end. The highest pin # for an integrated
circuit is always directly opposite #1 on the same end.
When an integrated circuit is shown on a schematic, it's
some kind of box or perhaps a triangle. Wires coming up to
the box will have one or more numbers adjacent to the
intersection. These are the numbers you connect to the
wire and each other. For example, if you see a wire coming
up to the box and the numbers are 2,6 . . . then you
connect pins 2 and 6 together for this junction. Pin numbers
not depicted on the schematic are left unconnected.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
Subject: | basic schematic help |
BOB.
Its a good idea to ground the input pin (s) of any unused opamp or logic
element in multi circuit chips. 4 circuit chips using using two should have
the unused two's input pins grounded.
This stabilizes the otherwise open input circuits that can oscillate and
cause problems. With the newer higher speed parts this is even more
important.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: basic schematic help
>
>I'm trying to build Jim Weir's overvoltage relay from Kitplanes Sept 2001(I
>found this one before Bob's and I have the stuff). I'm electrically inept,
>but I think I can build this, except I cannot figure out how to relate the
>pin placement on the IC for the opamp (LM358) to the schematic. The
>schematics I found on the internet just have three terminals (a positive,
>negative and an output), Jim's shows five, and the chip has eight.
Integrated circuits have some means of identifying
the #1 pin. This may be a little dot painted or molded
into the top surface. Some ICs have a notch or recess
molded into the end of the chip adjacent to the #1 pin.
While looking down on the TOP of any chip with the long
dimension horizontal, the #1 pin is always in the upper
right or lower left corner. Use the notch, recess, dot
etc to determine whether it's right or left end.
Starting with #1, count away from the pin on the same
side to the far end then go around the corner and count
back to the other end. The highest pin # for an integrated
circuit is always directly opposite #1 on the same end.
When an integrated circuit is shown on a schematic, it's
some kind of box or perhaps a triangle. Wires coming up to
the box will have one or more numbers adjacent to the
intersection. These are the numbers you connect to the
wire and each other. For example, if you see a wire coming
up to the box and the numbers are 2,6 . . . then you
connect pins 2 and 6 together for this junction. Pin numbers
not depicted on the schematic are left unconnected.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
Subject: | basic schematic help |
> While looking down on the TOP of any chip with the long
> dimension horizontal, the #1 pin is always in the upper
> right or lower left corner. Use the notch, recess, dot
> etc to determine whether it's right or left end.
>
I was about to write and corect Bob here, but take note that he lays his
chip HORIZONTALLY.
If you view it vertically, as I tend to, pin 1 is upper LEFT or lower RIGHT.
That one word makes a huge difference!
(Top of chip, showing both notch and dot. most chips will have one or the
other or both:)
+--\/--+
1 -|o |-8
| |
2 -| |-7
| |
3 -| |-6
| |
4 -| |-5
+------+
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jim Cameron" <toucan(at)78055.com> |
Subject: | OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
Dear Bob,
I'm using the LR3B-14 in my Lancair ES, and am having a bit of trouble
getting the OV warning function to work. Instead of using an incandescent
bulb on the panel, I'm using pin 5 of the LR3B as an input to a warning
light panel of my own design. The warning light panel uses opto-isolators
as the front end, and can be jumper-configured for either active (on) high,
or active low.
The total current through the front end is approx. 6.5mA per channel.
I set up my voltage warning as active low, assuming that pin 5 would be
pulled low when the voltage is out of the window. My warning light,
however, stays on all the time. I've traced the wiring, and it seems
correct; also, the other 9 warning lights function as intended.
Can you see any reason why this shouldn't work? I'm guessing that pin 5
is an open-collector type output, since it sinks current from the lamp in
the usual schematic shown by B&C. Is it possible that some small current
flows into pin 5 all the time? This might not make an incandescent lamp
light, but may be enough to trigger my warning light panel. Just guessing
there.
Jim Cameron
Lancair ES N143ES
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Keith Hughes" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: basic schematic help |
Thanks Piers, and others who answered.
I think I figured it out. I will test it tonight. The problem that was
bothering me was not which pin was number 1-8, but how do they relate to the
diagram, i.e. the schematic seems to look like a triangle with two inputs on
the left, and one output on the right. Those three seemed to make a little
sense when I saw what Piers wrote below. Then there are two vertical inputs
on the triangle. If they are positive and ground, then I looked at the
rest of the circuit and saw that one went to the ground side and the other
went to the source.
Anyway, thanks to all who answered. I'm slowly making sense of this and I
hope tonight when I power it up it'll work.
Keith
>
> Hi Kieth.
>
> First, (according my Maplin catalogue) the LM358 has two op amps on the
> chip. If your circuit only needs one op amp you can ignore your spare one
> (three of the terminals).
>
> This leaves you five terminals. Three are the op amp terminals on the
> schematic, i.e. -IN (inverting), +IN (non inverting) and OUTPUT. The
> remaining two terminals are for the power supply, i.e +Vs and ground. Op
> amps always need a power supply, but these are sometimes omitted on
> schematics.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net> |
Subject: | Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual buss |
Hi Bob,
As requested, here is my re-phrased question presented on the list. If
a general opinion can't be rendered without a detailed wiring diagram,
let me know.
First, my goal is to build an RV3 day-VFR airplane that stresses safe,
reliable cross-country capability. Because I chose an RV3, obviously
light weight and build simplicity are also important. I'm installing
Jeff Rose's dual electronic ignition and B&C's alternator and regulator.
I still like your essential buss system because it provided great
service on my RV6A. However, Jeff Rose's proposed system appears to
have some advantages and I thought it worth while to explore it with you
and the list.
Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the
use of:
1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and
having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic
ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches.
3) Alternator connected directly to one battery.
4) One main buss.
Simply put, the idea is to be able to connect the system any combination
of E.I.'s and batteries. If a battery, E.I., or an alternator fails,
you have back-up and you decide when and what electrical items to
turn-off.
I don't like the extra weight, cost, and installation complexity of two
battery systems (buss is simpler) but I do like the redundancy and
flexibility. If I can have a safe/reliable system without it, so much
the better.
Thanks, Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings, Boise, ID.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single |
battery, dual buss
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>As requested, here is my re-phrased question presented on the list. If
>a general opinion can't be rendered without a detailed wiring diagram,
>let me know.
>
>First, my goal is to build an RV3 day-VFR airplane that stresses safe,
>reliable cross-country capability. Because I chose an RV3, obviously
>light weight and build simplicity are also important. I'm installing
>Jeff Rose's dual electronic ignition and B&C's alternator and regulator.
>
>I still like your essential buss system because it provided great
>service on my RV6A. However, Jeff Rose's proposed system appears to
>have some advantages and I thought it worth while to explore it with you
>and the list.
>Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the
>use of:
>
>1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and
>having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic
>ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches.
>3) Alternator connected directly to one battery.
>4) One main buss.
>
>Simply put, the idea is to be able to connect the system any combination
>of E.I.'s and batteries. If a battery, E.I., or an alternator fails,
>you have back-up and you decide when and what electrical items to
>turn-off.
>
>I don't like the extra weight, cost, and installation complexity of two
>battery systems (buss is simpler) but I do like the redundancy and
>flexibility. If I can have a safe/reliable system without it, so much
>the better.
Are you planning a vacuum system or can we put
an SD-8 alternator on the vacuum pump pad?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | tom sargent <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis
of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be
"deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
cutting disk instead?
I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
Any body have any tips?
--
Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com> |
Subject: | Re: basic schematic help |
Seems like you've got it sorted.
If you want to follow Paul's advice, you should also connect pins 5 and 6 to
ground. These are the inputs to your unused op amp.
Piers
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis
of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be
"deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube
with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of the
tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just remove
any slight burr that might be there
I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
cutting disk instead?
Your tubing cutter is fine.
I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
Any body have any tips?
--
Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
>>
Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the flareing
tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It should
be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the tube
metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce
a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that cost
about $50 which does a good job.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DWENSING(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
In a message dated 2/19/02 9:50:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, FlyV35B(at)aol.com
writes:
<< The hardware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce
a good quality flare. >>
Tom, You also must use the correct angle of flaring tool. If I remember
correctly aircraft fitting are 38 degrees. Automotive and hardware store
tools are not 38 degrees.
Dale Ensing
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
In a message dated 2/19/2002 6:57:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
DWENSING(at)aol.com writes:
<< << The hardware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to produce
a good quality flare. >>
Tom, You also must use the correct angle of flaring tool. If I remember
correctly aircraft fitting are 38 degrees. Automotive and hardware store
tools are not 38 degrees.
Dale Ensing
>>
That's correct since most automotive fittings are 45 degree flares.
Aircraft tubing is actually a 37 degree JIC flare as are most industrial
hydraulic systems.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
I've found that the use of a "double flaring tool" is the best way to go.
The flares are much more robust and, I think, probably less prone to
failure. My problem is that I can not find a double flaring set up for 37
deg flares. I've thought about making the initial flare with a 37 deg tool
and then forming the second flare with the tool I have. More research has
to be done by me on this however.
Here is an interesting link on flaring:
http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142
56_ch36.pdf
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Waiting to start Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
>
>
> << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
> flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
> been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis
> of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be
> "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
>
> I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube
> with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of
the
> tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just
remove
> any slight burr that might be there
>
> I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
> circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
> cutting disk instead?
>
> Your tubing cutter is fine.
>
> I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
> burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
> the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
>
> Any body have any tips?
> --
> Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
> >>
> Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the
flareing
> tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It
should
> be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the
tube
> metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to
produce
> a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that
cost
> about $50 which does a good job.
>
> Cliff
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should be
used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I
will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link
showing how to perform a single flare.
http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142
56_ch36.pdf
The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double
flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to perform
the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool.
Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares.
Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section
pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my
web site. I'll let you know.
It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list
though.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Waiting to start Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
----- Original Message -----
From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
>
> In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
> << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
> flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
> been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis
> of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be
> "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
>
> I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube
> with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of
the
> tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just
remove
> any slight burr that might be there
>
> I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
> circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
> cutting disk instead?
>
> Your tubing cutter is fine.
>
> I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
> burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
> the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
>
> Any body have any tips?
> --
> Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
> >>
> Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the
flareing
> tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It
should
> be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the
tube
> metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to
produce
> a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that
cost
> about $50 which does a good job.
>
> Cliff
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | THE WEBSITE IS BACK UP . . . |
I've been learning more about website architecture and
programming than I ever wanted to know. The main website
has been functional for access to information for several
days but I just got the scripts that handle order forms
working last night. I've shut off the standby service
and put up pages that re-direct you back to the main site
which (to my best knowledge and belief) is now fully functional.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
About the cheapest route for quality flaring is the Rolo-Flair. $77.95 from
Aircraft Spruce. Make sure you clean and smooth the cut end of the tube. Use
a drop of oil with the end of the tube against the built in stop for the
correct length and you should be go for any flared joint including your
brake lines.
Double flaring tools start at $480 and go up.
Our chapter's RotoFlair has built many airplanes and repair many others at
Oshkosh without a problem. Double flares are for those that wear both
suspenders and a belt and still can crack and break at the same point as a
single flare..
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should be
used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I
will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link
showing how to perform a single flare.
http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142
56_ch36.pdf
The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double
flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to perform
the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool.
Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares.
Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section
pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my
web site. I'll let you know.
It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list
though.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Waiting to start Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
----- Original Message -----
From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
>
> In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
> << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
> flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
> been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central axis
> of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it be
> "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
>
> I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the tube
> with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of
the
> tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just
remove
> any slight burr that might be there
>
> I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
> circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
> cutting disk instead?
>
> Your tubing cutter is fine.
>
> I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
> burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
> the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
>
> Any body have any tips?
> --
> Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
> >>
> Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the
flareing
> tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It
should
> be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the
tube
> metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to
produce
> a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that
cost
> about $50 which does a good job.
>
> Cliff
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
Mike Nellis wrote:
>
> It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's Aeroelectric-list
> though.
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html
>
*** Gee, and here I was all set to ask about riveting :).
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
>
>Dear Bob,
>
> I'm using the LR3B-14 in my Lancair ES, and am having a bit of trouble
>getting the OV warning function to work. Instead of using an incandescent
>bulb on the panel, I'm using pin 5 of the LR3B as an input to a warning
>light panel of my own design. The warning light panel uses opto-isolators
>as the front end, and can be jumper-configured for either active (on) high,
>or active low.
>The total current through the front end is approx. 6.5mA per channel.
> I set up my voltage warning as active low, assuming that pin 5 would be
>pulled low when the voltage is out of the window. My warning light,
>however, stays on all the time. I've traced the wiring, and it seems
>correct; also, the other 9 warning lights function as intended.
>
> Can you see any reason why this shouldn't work? I'm guessing that pin 5
>is an open-collector type output, since it sinks current from the lamp in
>the usual schematic shown by B&C. Is it possible that some small current
>flows into pin 5 all the time? This might not make an incandescent lamp
>light, but may be enough to trigger my warning light panel. Just guessing
>there.
It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for
configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should illuminate
IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the output
transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a
warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a
level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but
it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up
resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp.
Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp)
and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the
lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage"
resistor inside.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Multiple wire connection and switch questions |
Two Questions for "Lectric Bob":
1. You have probably addressed this before but I can't locate an answer so
here goes. I am using a slightly customized version of your Z 11 wiring
scheme, Aeroelectric S700 series switches with faston terminals and PIDG
terminals. There are numerous requirements for two wires at the same switch
terminal. Is it acceptable to put two wires in a single PIDG terminal? If
not, what is the best way to do this?
2. In getting ready to order my switches I noticed that your catalog does
not show any 2-8 type. I need one of these for a starter switch as a result
of one of my "custom" features. Can you provide these or suggest a source, I
have checked Digi-Key and Mouser catalogs and could not seem to find a match
for the S700 series?
As always, many thanks for your patience and continuing support.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual |
buss
Richard D. Fogerson wrote:
>
> Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the
> use of:
>
> 1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and
> having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic
> ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches.
> 3) Alternator connected directly to one battery.
*** And the second battery is dead. What's the use?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
I agree the RotoFlair is probably the best way to go for a 37 deg flaring
tool.
However, for us guys that wear both suspenders and belts at the same time,
we can get a double flaring too for less than $25. It won't do the double
flare in one pass like the high dollar units but you can form the first
flare with this tool and finish it up with the Roto Flair. No comparison in
the quality of flares. Using a single flair on a break line is like using a
butt splice to hook a couple of wires together. It'll probably work fine
but is it the right way to do it? Probably not. Every steel auto brake
line I've ever seen has used double flares. Can't comment on the aviation
applications.
Mike
> Double flaring tools start at $480 and go up.
>
> Our chapter's RotoFlair has built many airplanes and repair many others at
> Oshkosh without a problem. Double flares are for those that wear both
> suspenders and a belt and still can crack and break at the same point as a
> single flare..
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
>
>
> The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should
be
> used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I
> will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link
> showing how to perform a single flare.
>
http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142
> 56_ch36.pdf
>
> The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double
> flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to
perform
> the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool.
>
> Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares.
> Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section
> pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my
> web site. I'll let you know.
>
> It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's
Aeroelectric-list
> though.
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html
>
> Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
> Georgetown, TX
> Waiting to start Fuselage
> RV6 N699BM Reserved
> 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes:
> >
> > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
> > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
> > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central
axis
> > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it
be
> > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
> >
> > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the
tube
> > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of
> the
> > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just
> remove
> > any slight burr that might be there
> >
> > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
> > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
> > cutting disk instead?
> >
> > Your tubing cutter is fine.
> >
> > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
> > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
> > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
> >
> > Any body have any tips?
> > --
> > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
> > >>
> > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the
> flareing
> > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It
> should
> > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the
> tube
> > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to
> produce
> > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that
> cost
> > about $50 which does a good job.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Multiple wire connection and switch |
questions
>
>Two Questions for "Lectric Bob":
>
>1. You have probably addressed this before but I can't locate an answer so
>here goes. I am using a slightly customized version of your Z 11 wiring
>scheme, Aeroelectric S700 series switches with faston terminals and PIDG
>terminals. There are numerous requirements for two wires at the same switch
>terminal. Is it acceptable to put two wires in a single PIDG terminal?
Yes . . . as long as the cross-sectional area of the combination
fits into the terminal, it's okay to put multiple wires into one
crimp.
> If
>not, what is the best way to do this?
>
>2. In getting ready to order my switches I noticed that your catalog does
>not show any 2-8 type. I need one of these for a starter switch as a result
>of one of my "custom" features. Can you provide these or suggest a source, I
>have checked Digi-Key and Mouser catalogs and could not seem to find a match
>for the S700 series?
Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for
magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag
as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but
the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is
certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock
but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it.
>As always, many thanks for your patience and continuing support.
My pleasure
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Multiple wire connection . . . |
>
>Two Questions for "Lectric Bob":
>
>1. You have probably addressed this before but I can't locate an answer so
>here goes. I am using a slightly customized version of your Z 11 wiring
>scheme, Aeroelectric S700 series switches with faston terminals and PIDG
>terminals. There are numerous requirements for two wires at the same switch
>terminal. Is it acceptable to put two wires in a single PIDG terminal? If
>not, what is the best way to do this?
Yes . . . after I answered this earlier, I seemed to recall having
done a piece on this very topic. Dug around a bit and found the
work all loaded up to the website but never linked to the articles
index page! Anywho, with your heads-up reminder I've corrected the
error and I'll invite you to peek at:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Jeff Hottle" <jeffh(at)primatech.com> |
Subject: | Re: 2-8 toggle switch |
>>2. In getting ready to order my switches I noticed that your catalog does
>>not show any 2-8 type. I need one of these for a starter switch as a result
>>of one of my "custom" features. Can you provide these or suggest a source, I
>>have checked Digi-Key and Mouser catalogs and could not seem to find a match
>>for the S700 series?
>
> Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for
> magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag
> as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but
> the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is
> certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock
> but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it.
Digikey has a DPDT On-(On) with screw lugs, pn 360-1232-ND, $10.86
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
Sorry, Thought this was an aviation site. Aviation brakes have been set up
using plastic "Nylaflow" tubing. It works well, it is light and if you
check it for heat damage once in a while it is satisfactory. The pressures
used in light aircraft obviously are not what you find with power brakes in
a car. Biggest problem when flaring is over-doing it so you thin out the
material.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
I agree the RotoFlair is probably the best way to go for a 37 deg flaring
tool.
However, for us guys that wear both suspenders and belts at the same time,
we can get a double flaring too for less than $25. It won't do the double
flare in one pass like the high dollar units but you can form the first
flare with this tool and finish it up with the Roto Flair. No comparison in
the quality of flares. Using a single flair on a break line is like using a
butt splice to hook a couple of wires together. It'll probably work fine
but is it the right way to do it? Probably not. Every steel auto brake
line I've ever seen has used double flares. Can't comment on the aviation
applications.
Mike
> Double flaring tools start at $480 and go up.
>
> Our chapter's RotoFlair has built many airplanes and repair many others at
> Oshkosh without a problem. Double flares are for those that wear both
> suspenders and a belt and still can crack and break at the same point as a
> single flare..
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
>
>
> The key to a good flare is to use a "double flare". Double flares should
be
> used wherever high pressures will be encountered (such as brake lines). I
> will be using double flares on all my flared fittings. Here is a link
> showing how to perform a single flare.
>
http://www.advancement.cnet.navy.mil/products/web-pdf/tramans/bookchunks/142
> 56_ch36.pdf
>
> The problem I've run into is that I can not find a 37 deg specific double
> flaring tool. However, I think I can use my double flaring tool to
perform
> the first step and then finish it off with my 37 deg flaring tool.
>
> Have a look at this link for an excellent tutorial to both type of flares.
> Excellent pictures and explanations. I've got a couple of cross section
> pictures of a single and double flares that I'll try to find and put on my
> web site. I'll let you know.
>
> It seems like we've gotten waaaayyyyyy of topic from Bob's
Aeroelectric-list
> though.
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1943/gentip2/gentip2.html
>
> Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
> Georgetown, TX
> Waiting to start Fuselage
> RV6 N699BM Reserved
> 1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flaring tubing
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 2/18/2002 9:38:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > sarg314(at)earthlink.net writes:
> >
> > << I am starting on the fuel system plumbing. I've done a few practice
> > flares on the 3/8" aluminum tubing. I notice that after the tubing has
> > been cut, it has a razor sharp lip extending in towards the central
axis
> > of the tube. Is it advisable to just flare that as is, or should it
be
> > "deburred" first? If so, what's the best way to deburr it?
> >
> > I've found that to make a good flare you need to deburr the ID of the
tube
> > with the reamer on your tubing cutter. I also carefully file the end of
> the
> > tube flat and then make a very small chamfer on the OD. Actually just
> remove
> > any slight burr that might be there
> >
> > I'm using a hardware store tubing cutter - like a C-clamp with a
> > circular cutting blade. Is it better to cut the tubing off with a
> > cutting disk instead?
> >
> > Your tubing cutter is fine.
> >
> > I notice some of the practice flares I did had an imperfection in the
> > burnished surface of the flare - a small pit. I'm guessing it's from
> > the burr left by the cutter and that it would make a leaky seal.
> >
> > Any body have any tips?
> > --
> > Tom Sargent. RV-6A QB
> > >>
> > Finally, the quality of the flare will depend on the quality of the
> flareing
> > tool you use. The better ones use a fluted cone or even a roller. It
> should
> > be very smooth and polished and some lube on it to misimize galling the
> tube
> > metal. The harware store variety of flaring tools just don't seem to
> produce
> > a good quality flare. I have a larger one made by Parker-Hannifin that
> cost
> > about $50 which does a good job.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net> |
Subject: | Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual |
buss
I'm not sure what you mean but if you mean, what is the use of two batteries
if one is dead, you have one that isn't and it will run your E.I.(s),
alternator, starter, etc.???
Rick Fogerson
----- Original Message -----
From: <jerry(at)tr2.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery,
dual buss
>
> Richard D. Fogerson wrote:
> >
> > Essentially, Jeff stresses pilot flexibility and redundancy through the
> > use of:
> >
> > 1) Dual 17ah recombant gas batteries connected by a toggle switch and
> > having indivdual solennoids. 2) Dual electronic
> > ignitions, each controlled by on-off-on toggle switches.
> > 3) Alternator connected directly to one battery.
>
> *** And the second battery is dead. What's the use?
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
Bob (or others who tried this),
I bought a pack of 6amps/50PIV diodes at Radio Shack
today.
I'd like to know if I can join 2 or three of them in
parallel and use that to feed the essential bus from
the main bus (see picture
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/dcp01400.jpg).
If I load the bus with 15 amps, how hot will those
diodes get? Will that be reliable?
Thanks (again!)
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://sports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual |
buss
Richard D. Fogerson wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean but if you mean, what is the use of two batteries
> if one is dead, you have one that isn't and it will run your E.I.(s),
> alternator, starter, etc.???
*** The original post said that only one battery is connected to the
alternator. Therefor, the other battery (that is not connected to the
alternator ) is always dead. Why carry it? I'm sure there's something
I'm missing here....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
Subject: | Re: flaring tubing |
The reason for double flaring steel tubing is that it splits if you try to
single flare it.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 02/19/2002 2:52:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, tom sargent
writes:
<>
2/19/2002
Hello Tom, I'll answer this on the aeroelectric list because I don't know
where else you might have posted or are expecting a response.
Do not use that tubing cutter. Aside from the problems that you have already
noted above it will work harden the aluminum and lead to cracking of the
flare.
Use a fine tooth hacksaw blade to cut the tube off as squarely as you can.
Square it up further if needed / possible with a sanding disk. Then carefully
debur the end inside and out.
You have several choices for deburring, but since you are building an
aluminum airplane I assume that you are close to an expert on the subject of
deburring.
Then use your flaring tool. Some times just a smidge of lubricant (I like
Sealube) on the tool flaring cone is helpful. You should wind up with a
smooth burnished interior to your flare.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
PS: There should be no sealant of any kind placed on the mating flare and
cone surfaces when you assemble the fittings, as you are seeking a metal to
metal seal, but a bit of Sealube on the threads will help keep the threads
from galling.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual |
buss
>
>
>No vaccum system.
Okay, are you planning perhaps to put an SD-8 alternator
on an unused vacuum pump pad? If so, there's no
real need for dual batteries. The all-electric-airplane
on a budget architecture shown in figure Z-13 of the latest
edition of the 'Connection will suffice.
Get http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
if you don't already have it.
Run one ignition from the main bus, the other from
the battery bus and you'll have two independent feed
paths to each ignition system from a well maintained
battery supported by two alternators.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
>Bob (or others who tried this),
>
>I bought a pack of 6amps/50PIV diodes at Radio Shack
>today.
>
>I'd like to know if I can join 2 or three of them in
>parallel and use that to feed the essential bus from
>the main bus (see picture
>http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/dcp01400.jpg).
>
>If I load the bus with 15 amps, how hot will those
>diodes get? Will that be reliable?
>
>Thanks (again!)
You can't parallel diodes like this. Get the
diode assembly from Radio Shack that looks like
this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25
or order it from B&C. The pictures tell you how to
wire it. This is a diode that can hendle that kind
of current and has been designed to heat sink to a
mounting surface.
What are you putting on the e-bus that boosts the loads
to 15 amps?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Mac CAD info |
>
> > and try it.
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/HOLES.DWG
> >
> > If you can open this drawing and edit the thing, then
> > it's a simple matter to repost my drawing collection
> > with non-self-extracting .zip files.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>You are correct that the self-extracting .exe won't run on a Mac, but
>Stuffit Expander (the most common free Mac file decompression
>utility) is smart enough to extract the compressed files and expand
>them. All you have to do is drag the .exe file to the Stuffit
>Expander icon, and let it do its magic. The problem is that I can't
>find a cheap Mac program that can read .dwg files.
How about this. An ol' junker of a Dos machine with
Win3.11 will run Intellicad or AutoCADLTv1.0 and probably
a number of other freebe AutoCAD compatible programs.
You can probably put together a Dos system complete with
software cheaper than you can buy software that will
run on the Mac . . . Boeing surplus here in Wichita
is selling 133 Mhz CPU's with Win95 on them for $60.
These would make an excellent CAD machine for doing your
drawings. Check around for used/surplus computer stores
or on Ebay . . . you can do this dirt cheap.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Looking for 2-8 switch |
Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for
magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag
as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but
the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is
certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock
but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it.
Bob: I was originally using your 2-5 switches as shown on Z-11. However,
the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting power
to that unit during engine start. The way I would like to do this is with a
2-8 switch and two 2-3s for the magneto/start interlock system. I have not
been able to locate a 2-8 of comparable quality to the S700 series that you
stock. I would appreciate it if you could locate one or suggest a source
other than Digi-Key or Mouser. Thanks again.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
Subject: | potting material |
I have a circuit board with about 2 dozen components that I would like to
harden against vibration. I have seen some use the epoxy putty sold in
auto stores to fill in and cover the components. Is there any down side to
this method, or is there a better substance? Would the Shoe Goo you
recommend for connectors make a good potting compound in this case?
I don't practically have a way to do surface mount and there is no rf stuff
in the circuit, and I can't see where heat dissipation is a problem for any
of it. If something fails later, I can just make another unit.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net> |
Subject: | Re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual |
buss
Hi Jerry,
I can't say that I understand the entire schematic that Jeff Rose envisions,
I do understand the idea of it. The two batteries are connected through the
on-off toggle sw. Normally the switch would be closed thus connecting the
two batteries to the alternator. However, when you want to check the voltage
of each battery, you would open this switch momentarily and connect each one
at a time to a voltmeter. Another reason to do this is if the alternator
dies, shorts out, etc., you can protect your alternate battery. Also, if
you are using the Skytech starter, you want to power the starter with one
battery and the E.I.'s with the other to prevent kickback. There may be
other reasons as well but this is all I've thought of at the moment.
Rick Fogerson
----- Original Message -----
From: <jerry(at)tr2.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery,
dual buss
>
> Richard D. Fogerson wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean but if you mean, what is the use of two
batteries
> > if one is dead, you have one that isn't and it will run your E.I.(s),
> > alternator, starter, etc.???
> *** The original post said that only one battery is connected to the
> alternator. Therefor, the other battery (that is not connected to the
> alternator ) is always dead. Why carry it? I'm sure there's something
> I'm missing here....
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tin.it> |
May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy.
Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same?
What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard
working?
Thanks.
John Herminghaus
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
> You can't parallel diodes like this.
Thanks!
> Get the
> diode assembly from Radio Shack that looks like
> this:
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25
I bought one. They call it a "Full wave bridge" and
it is part no 276-1185. However, on the back of the
package, among other things, it specifies "Forward
voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts"
I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt
drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly?
> This is a diode that can hendle that
> kind
> of current and has been designed to heat sink to
> a
> mounting surface.
Do I need more than an aluminum surface? (I mean like
a real heat sink)
> What are you putting on the e-bus that boosts the
> loads
> to 15 amps?
Probably nothing that will load 15amp in real life...
but when you add the fuse specs., it goes up fast. I
want my plane qualified for night vfr. around a
controled airport. So, on the ess bus, I'm thinking
about: radio, transponder, navaid, panel light, flood
light, emergency fuel pump. (I may forget something,
but these are the main components)
Thanks again!
Michel
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://sports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Looking for 2-8 switch |
>
>
>
> Hmmmm . . . have you considered using a pair of 2-5 switches for
> magneto switches and using the full up position of the left mag
> as a START function. I looked at stocking the 2-8 early on but
> the pair of 2-5's was more appealing to me at the time. 2-8 is
> certainly made . . . not sure where they might be found in stock
> but I can dig around for you if you really gotta have it.
>
>Bob: I was originally using your 2-5 switches as shown on Z-11. However,
>the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting power
>to that unit during engine start. The way I would like to do this is with a
>2-8 switch and two 2-3s for the magneto/start interlock system. I have not
>been able to locate a 2-8 of comparable quality to the S700 series that you
>stock. I would appreciate it if you could locate one or suggest a source
>other than Digi-Key or Mouser. Thanks again.
Have to talked to the manufacturer to find out what
stresses give him cause for concern? I have talked to
perhaps a dozen engineers of various electronics widgets
for airplanes wherein their instructions "strongly recommended
disconnect during engine starting". To date, not one individual
could identify either the source or magnitude of any stress
that might threaten their product. These words have appeared
in the installation of various products since the late 60's
when (in our profound ignorance of how solid state electronics
really works) the better safe-than-sorry-approach to training
owner/pilots prevailed over good engineering understanding.
Who makes your vulnerable system? Let me call them and get
a clarification of the need for their installation philosophy.
If they have a VALID concern, they they've not done their homework
in designing a product to live in an airplane (it's really
easy to do). If their concerns are imaginary then it won't
be hard to find out. Our duty as responsible consumers is
to understand the physics and to make sure they KNOW we
understand it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
Michel Therrien wrote:
> package, among other things, it specifies "Forward
> voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts"
>
> I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt
> drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly?
>
*** Yup. 1.7 is two diode drops. In the normal application
of a full wave bridge, there are always two diodes in series
with the output of the transformer ( that the full wave bridge
was designed to rectify ).
In this application, only one of the diodes is used, so
the voltage drop is half of 1.7, or .85. This is still somewhat
higher than .6. Reason is that diodes really do NOT have a 0.6 volt
drop: that's just a "nominal" ( in name ) value. In reality, if you
apply increased current through a diode, the voltage across it will
also increase, although not linearly, like a resistor.
The full wave bridge is a very nice, easy to mount package - so what if
you don't use three of the diodes. If the RS one is not beefy enough
for your taste, you can get bigger ones. I've seen them rated up to
50 amps.
I haven't done the experiment, but I suspect that an aluminum airframe
makes a GREAT heat sink.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: potting material |
>
>
>I have a circuit board with about 2 dozen components that I would like to
>harden against vibration. I have seen some use the epoxy putty sold in
>auto stores to fill in and cover the components. Is there any down side to
>this method, or is there a better substance? Would the Shoe Goo you
>recommend for connectors make a good potting compound in this case?
>
>I don't practically have a way to do surface mount and there is no rf stuff
>in the circuit, and I can't see where heat dissipation is a problem for any
>of it. If something fails later, I can just make another unit.
>
>Gary Liming
Just paint the components with Shoo Goo (also sold as industrial
adhesive E-6000 in Hobby Lobby). Lean adjacent components toward
each other so that they become bonded to each other with the
adhesive (this turns two, two-legged devices into one four-legged
device). It doesn't take much to stabilize small components.
Non-acidic RTV is good too but hard to find. Both uckum-yukies
take some time to set in deep section . . . I've come to prefer
the Shoo-Goo . . . it sets up nicely overnight if kept warm.
I've moved away from epoxies . . . they are rigid and may not
perform as well with respect to effects of hydrocarbon fumes,
ozone, etc.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Tube flaring |
In a message dated 2/20/2002 3:33:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
catignano(at)tin.it writes:
<< May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy.
Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same?
What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard
working?
>>
Most aluminum tubing is made out of 5052-0 dead soft aluminum. I've flared
lots of tubes and cut them off with a standard tubing cutter and had no
problems provided you carefully ream the inside and remove the burrs. I also
file the end of the tube flat with a fine file which seems to make a better
flare. A little cold working of the soft aluminum is not going to hurt it or
make it brittle. In fact it probably is beneficial in that it will increase
the strength of the flare.
You can cut the tube with a hacksaw but you better file it square and flat on
the end and deburr it before you flare it.
The comment on a previous email that "that you cannot single flare a steel
tube because it will crack" is false. I've flared many many industrial
seemless steel tubes and never had a problem and even on the few stainless
steel tubes I've done for aircraft.
Cliff A&P/IA
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Tube flaring |
John F. Herminghaus wrote:
>
>
> May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy.
>
> Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same?
> What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard
> working?
*** How about a Dremel with a cutoff wheel? Best of all worlds. No hard
working, nice sharp cut.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
> >
> > You can't parallel diodes like this.
>
>Thanks!
>
> > Get the
> > diode assembly from Radio Shack that looks like
> > this:
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#S401-25
>
>I bought one. They call it a "Full wave bridge" and
>it is part no 276-1185. However, on the back of the
>package, among other things, it specifies "Forward
>voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts"
thats a MAX rating under conditions that you'll
never see.
>I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt
>drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly?
Yes . . .
>Probably nothing that will load 15amp in real life...
>but when you add the fuse specs., it goes up fast.
I suggest you never add up fuse values to determine
anything about loads . . . many folk have sized
alternators based upon this technique and ended
up with a MUCH too big/heavy/expensive machine.
I
>want my plane qualified for night vfr. around a
>controled airport. So, on the ess bus, I'm thinking
>about: radio, transponder, navaid, panel light, flood
>light, emergency fuel pump. (I may forget something,
>but these are the main components)
Your max-endurance, alternator-out e-bus loads
should be on the order of 4A or less. Running
loads when the alternator is working can obviously
be much higher, peak loads (during transmit) can
be higher still . . . just make sure that all
goodies not needed for continued comfortable
flight to intended destination can be turned
OFF if the alternator barfs.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
Subject: | Re: Tube flaring |
I believe that work hardening comes from bending the material. Tubing
cutters do end up bending the material inward and in so doing cause a
small amount of work hardening.
I can't see how a hacksaw would cause work hardening. Doesn't it
work by essentially wearing a slotted hole in the material on its
teeth? I can see some hardening happening if you cut quickly and by
so doing heating the metal. Even then unless you quenched the material,
it doesn't seem like you would cause much hardening. I think making
a slow cut with a fine hacksaw holds the best prospect for changing
the material the least. Maybe I don't really understand how a hacksaw
works (seriously) though! :)
Maybe it would be possible to design a shear that would cut tubing
without distorting or using any friction on it. It would allow you
to save the blade curf too!
Matt-
----- Original Message -----
From: jerry(at)tr2.com
Date: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:08 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tube flaring
>
> John F. Herminghaus wrote:
> >
> >
> > May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw
> contreversy.>
> > Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same?
> > What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard
> > working?
>
> *** How about a Dremel with a cutoff wheel? Best of all worlds.
> No hard
> working, nice sharp cut.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
> _-
>
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
!! NEW !!
> _-
>
List Related Information
> _-
>
=======================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
Subject: | Navaid (was: Looking for 2-8 switch ) |
the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting
power
to that unit during engine start.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
Speaking of which, I had a little problem when I was mocking up my
Navaid autopilot installation. It doesn't like low voltages. I'm using
and old car battery for power and the Navaid came up showing about 2 to
3 bars of right turn whenever I engaged the servo. I called the company
and spoke to Richard about it. He said that the guy who designed it (and
later sold the company), set it up to regulate internally at 11 volts
and that it needs some voltage headroom. These things won't operate
reliably at 12 volts so if you lose your alternator, you lose your
autopilot (and possibly your primary turn coordinator as well). It runs
fine with a battery charger hooked up to the battery. I'm going to be
running all electric and dual lightspeeds, so this is kinda pushing me
over the top to run a backup alternator as well. I've just got to decide
if I'm going to run 2 batteries also.
They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I
forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid
unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another
item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to.
Ed Holyoke
RV-6
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Engine Monitor ? (was: Looking for 2-8 switch ) |
In a message dated 2/20/02 6:05:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
czechsix(at)juno.com writes:
<< Harry, what engine monitor are you using? >>
Grand Rapids EIS 4000. BTW, the folks at Grand Rapids don't call the EIS
power interruption during start a critical requirement, but rather a good
idea. Having personally experienced some rather loud and destructive effects
of electric motor start up and shut down transients years ago back in my
early rocket testing days I am still sensitive to those kinds of issues and
so choose to go the extra mile. No reflection on "Lectric Bob's" no doubt
correct advice that this is no longer necessary with modern electronic
devices.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
>Michel Therrien wrote:
> > package, among other things, it specifies "Forward
> > voltage drop at 10amp: 1.7 volts"
> >
> > I always thought that we were talking about 0.6 volt
> > drop, not 1.7. Do I have the right diode assembly?
> >
>*** Yup. 1.7 is two diode drops. In the normal application
>of a full wave bridge, there are always two diodes in series
>with the output of the transformer ( that the full wave bridge
>was designed to rectify ).
>
> In this application, only one of the diodes is used, so
>the voltage drop is half of 1.7, or .85. This is still somewhat
>higher than .6. Reason is that diodes really do NOT have a 0.6 volt
>drop: that's just a "nominal" ( in name ) value. In reality, if you
>apply increased current through a diode, the voltage across it will
>also increase, although not linearly, like a resistor.
>
> The full wave bridge is a very nice, easy to mount package - so what if
>you don't use three of the diodes. If the RS one is not beefy enough
>for your taste, you can get bigger ones. I've seen them rated up to
>50 amps.
>
> I haven't done the experiment, but I suspect that an aluminum airframe
>makes a GREAT heat sink.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
You can add a bit of thermal grease (also available at Radio Shack) and get
even better thermal contact/dispersal.
scot
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | NO need for power interruption for EIS (was need 2-8 |
switch,etc)
O.K. everybody, including "Lectric Bob", I am WRONG. The Grand Rapids EIS
system no longer has any requirement to take power off before engine start.
That was true of their original design and I picked it up from an older
installation manual. IT IS NO LONGER REQUIRED. I called them this morning,
unfortunately after blabbing to this list the name of the manufacturer, and
learned that their EIS 2000, 4000 and 6000 systems no longer have this
requirement. In fact they now suggest turning the EIS on before startup. My
sincere apologies to everyone, especially Grand Rapids folks. I will now
crawl back into my hole and simplify my wiring diagram.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: Tube flaring |
Golly, Never gave it much thought before. The advantage of the wheel cutter
is the square cut. If the wheel is a high quality and sharp, then the work
hardening issue is probably remote. You still should deburr the inside with
a sharp countersink and use a drop of oil on the flaring tool. A fine
toothed hacksaw can be used. Less deburring but are more likely to need
squaring with a smooth cut file. I like a bandsaw myself but have used all
three.
Don't overflare and don't forget the backup farrell and flare nut when doing
the second flare.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tin.it>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tube flaring
May I ask Cy Galley's opinion on the tube cutter/hacksaw contreversy.
Tube cutters hard work the aluminum, but don't hacksaws do the same?
What is the trade off on the quality of the cut against the hard
working?
Thanks.
John Herminghaus
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Re: NO need for power interruption for EIS (was need |
2-8 switch,etc)
ah! You just made me more nervous as I have the EIS
Advanced (not a x000) unit. So, I called to know how
to determine if we have an "old" unit.
So here it is: If your unit has 2 9-pin connectors on
the back, it is an "old" unit. The one I have has one
DB25 connector, so I'm OK... I can fire all four
cylinders and the two ignitions with the switch turned
on :-)
Michel
--- HCRV6(at)aol.com wrote:
> HCRV6(at)aol.com
>
> O.K. everybody, including "Lectric Bob", I am WRONG.
> The Grand Rapids EIS
> system no longer has any requirement to take power
> off before engine start.
> That was true of their original design and I picked
> it up from an older
> installation manual. IT IS NO LONGER REQUIRED. I
> called them this morning,
> unfortunately after blabbing to this list the name
> of the manufacturer, and
> learned that their EIS 2000, 4000 and 6000 systems
> no longer have this
> requirement. In fact they now suggest turning the
> EIS on before startup. My
> sincere apologies to everyone, especially Grand
> Rapids folks. I will now
> crawl back into my hole and simplify my wiring
> diagram.
>
> Harry Crosby
> Pleasanton, California
> RV-6, finish kit stuff
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
> aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://sports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Low Voltage Warning |
Bob,
I have two related questions.
1. I plan to use the B & C Alternator Controller with a B & C
alternator. Does the lamp attached to pin 5 indicate OV or low voltage?
If it indicates OV, is there a provision for indicating low voltage?
[that's 2 questions in 1]
2. If the controller does not provide for low voltage warning, then I
refer to your 9021-610 "Schmatic Diagram - Low Voltage Warning". Is
there a convenient way to add a "test" switch to check for functioning
of the LED when the voltage is normal?
Thanks in advance.
Richard Dudley
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Tube flaring |
I used a little circular roller type tubing cutter, and then slightly
deburred the inside edge. Get the good aircraft tubing flaring tool Cy
recommended, and the real key is to use oil. I see no reason to use a saw,
as the cut edge gets stretched beyond recognition anyway.
On a related note, regarding bending up the tubes.... buy lots of extra
tubing (it is cheap), and if you don't like a tube you've just made, chuck
it and remake it.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
6A N66AP flying 91 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Al & Deb Paxhia" <paxhia2(at)attbi.com> |
Ed,
I don't know if the Navaid needs to powered off at start but I have
installed a switch that powers the Navaid, rudder and elevator trim servos.
If any of those servos has a runaway problem one switch kills them all.
Al
SR3500(finishing up details)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Navaid (was: Looking for 2-8 switch )
>
>
>
> the manufacturer of my engine monitor strongly recommends interrupting
> power
> to that unit during engine start.
>
>
>
> Harry Crosby
> Pleasanton, California
> RV-6, finish kit stuff
>
> Speaking of which, I had a little problem when I was mocking up my
> Navaid autopilot installation. It doesn't like low voltages. I'm using
> and old car battery for power and the Navaid came up showing about 2 to
> 3 bars of right turn whenever I engaged the servo. I called the company
> and spoke to Richard about it. He said that the guy who designed it (and
> later sold the company), set it up to regulate internally at 11 volts
> and that it needs some voltage headroom. These things won't operate
> reliably at 12 volts so if you lose your alternator, you lose your
> autopilot (and possibly your primary turn coordinator as well). It runs
> fine with a battery charger hooked up to the battery. I'm going to be
> running all electric and dual lightspeeds, so this is kinda pushing me
> over the top to run a backup alternator as well. I've just got to decide
> if I'm going to run 2 batteries also.
>
> They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I
> forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid
> unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another
> item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to.
>
> Ed Holyoke
> RV-6
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: NO need for power interruption for EIS (was need |
2-8
switch,etc)
>
>O.K. everybody, including "Lectric Bob", I am WRONG. The Grand Rapids EIS
>system no longer has any requirement to take power off before engine start.
>That was true of their original design and I picked it up from an older
>installation manual. IT IS NO LONGER REQUIRED. I called them this morning,
>unfortunately after blabbing to this list the name of the manufacturer, and
>learned that their EIS 2000, 4000 and 6000 systems no longer have this
>requirement. In fact they now suggest turning the EIS on before startup. My
>sincere apologies to everyone, especially Grand Rapids folks. I will now
>crawl back into my hole and simplify my wiring diagram.
Not a problem . . . the PURPOSE of this list is to
identify, confirm and share good information. It's
not a sin to be skeptical - you will either confirm
what's good, exposed what's not so good and
sometimes discover something better . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Engine Monitor ? (was: Looking for 2-8 switch ) |
> . . . Having personally experienced some rather loud and destructive
> effects
>of electric motor start up and shut down transients years ago back in my
>early rocket testing days I am still sensitive to those kinds of issues and
>so choose to go the extra mile. No reflection on "Lectric Bob's" no doubt
>correct advice that this is no longer necessary with modern electronic
>devices.
A minor correction . . . this SHOULD NOT be necessary IF the
manufacturer has taken simple steps in the design and
qualification of their product. I am primed to be skeptical
of off-hand advice that somebody may well have thrown into
the instruction manual simply because "that's what we've
always done . . . and gee, it doesn't HURT anything . . .
does it?
My wish is that we become both educated and insistent
consumers. Yes, we can always accommodate the idiosyncrasies
of someone's products IF we're willing to accept shortcomings
in trade for some perceived benefit. However, we KNOW that
robust design for vehicular DC systems is virtual child's
play. There's strong incentive to get to the source of
such information to (1) see if it's really true and/or
(2) tweak the manufacturer's nose a bit for not doing his
homework . . . after all it's YOUR money he wants you to
spend on his product.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | RE: Navaid (wouldn't pass DO-160 brown out at 10.5v) |
>Speaking of which, I had a little problem when I was mocking up my
>Navaid autopilot installation. It doesn't like low voltages. I'm using
>and old car battery for power and the Navaid came up showing about 2 to
>3 bars of right turn whenever I engaged the servo. I called the company
>and spoke to Richard about it. He said that the guy who designed it (and
>later sold the company), set it up to regulate internally at 11 volts
>and that it needs some voltage headroom. These things won't operate
>reliably at 12 volts so if you lose your alternator, you lose your
>autopilot (and possibly your primary turn coordinator as well).
Which nicely illustrates my point in an adjacent post. Here
we are made aware of and understand the limitations of a
particular product. We can choose to accept the product
because it does what we want at an acceptable price.
Further, knowing its limitations, we can now plan to accommodate
its shortcomings during an alternator-out situation . . . here's
a strong selling point for a second alternator - even if it's
the itty-bitty feller from B&C . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | re: Dual battery single buss Vs Single battery, dual |
buss
>
>
>Hi Jerry,
>I can't say that I understand the entire schematic that Jeff Rose envisions,
>I do understand the idea of it. The two batteries are connected through the
>on-off toggle sw. Normally the switch would be closed thus connecting the
>two batteries to the alternator. However, when you want to check the voltage
>of each battery, you would open this switch momentarily and connect each one
>at a time to a voltmeter. Another reason to do this is if the alternator
>dies, shorts out, etc., you can protect your alternate battery. Also, if
>you are using the Skytech starter, you want to power the starter with one
>battery and the E.I.'s with the other to prevent kickback. There may be
>other reasons as well but this is all I've thought of at the moment.
This is a classic system integration problem where one has to
balance all of the components against each other. If you have
a PM motor starter (very high inrush currents compared to wound
field) -AND- the battery is getting soggy, the bus voltage may
sag to levels unacceptable to the ignition during starting.
If you want to avoid dual battery complexity and weight, perhaps
a B&C starter would be a good alternative. If the PM starter
is your choice, then perhaps a second battery is in order.
Figure Z-30 in
http://209.134.106.21/articles/Rev9/ch10-9.pdf
shows how to add a second battery to ANY system. If the need
for a second battery is just to accommodate a greedy starter,
then the aux battery could be quite small . . . say 2 to 4 ampere
hours and the aux battery contactor could be a heavy duty
relay like our S704-1. Here the only thing the aux battery
is expected to do is keep one ignition alive with good supply
voltage while the main battery gets the engine running.
After the engine is running, you can still enjoy the relatively
light weight and simple system operation of the all electric
airplane on a budget (Figure Z-13) and the size of the aux battery
is immaterial to overall system performance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
> Thanks to all who responded for the diode question
There is a simple way to eliminate the voltage drop when driving the
essential bus only. It requires that the essential bus and "radio" bus be
one in the same (i.e., a radio master switch turns on the same bus as the
alternate feed switch). It is a little tough to explain without a drawing,
but here goes. Ignoring fuses in this discussion, a line goes from the main
(run by the relay) bus to a "radio master" switch, then to the essential
(radio) bus. Another line comes from the battery (always hot) bus to an
"alternate feed" switch, and then to the same essential (radio) bus. The
trick with the diode is to put it across the "radio master" switch with the
proper polarity. The diode doesn't "feed" anything this way, it simply
prevents the juice coming through the "alternate feed" switch from back
powering the main bus. The loss of alternator procedure would be: 1. close
the "alternate feed" switch, 2. open the "radio master" switch, 3. turn off
the master switch controlling the relay. The "alternate feed" and "radio
master" switches would preferably be a double pole, three position switch,
although mine are two separate, single pole double throw switches. There is
no power interuption to the essential bus when switching as in the above.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
6A N66AP flying 91 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning |
>
>Bob,
>I have two related questions.
>
>1. I plan to use the B & C Alternator Controller with a B & C
>alternator. Does the lamp attached to pin 5 indicate OV or low voltage?
>If it indicates OV, is there a provision for indicating low voltage?
>[that's 2 questions in 1]
The lamp will flash any time the bus voltage drops BELOW 13.0 volts.
If you have OV protection, you don't need an indicator specific to
an OV problem . . . within milliseconds of OV onset, the system is
shut down and the LV light begins to flash a few seconds later.
>2. If the controller does not provide for low voltage warning, then I
>refer to your 9021-610 "Schmatic Diagram - Low Voltage Warning". Is
>there a convenient way to add a "test" switch to check for functioning
>of the LED when the voltage is normal?
Sure, just shut the alternator off. It doesn't hurt to do this in
flight but it shouldn't be necessary either. The light will begin
to flash as soon as you turn the master on and before the engine
is started. This provides for automatic preflight testing of the
circuit when the light goes out after the alternator comes on line.
But if you have a B&C controller, you don't need the critter in
9021-610.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Subject: | Proper alum. tube flare cuts |
Cliff:
"Most aluminum tubing is made out of 5052-0 dead soft aluminum. I've flared
lots of tubes and cut them off with a standard tubing cutter and had no
problems provided you carefully ream the inside and remove the burrs. I
also file the end of the tube flat with a fine file which seems to make a
better flare. A little cold working of the soft aluminum is not going to
hurt it or make it brittle. In fact it probably is beneficial in that it
will increase the strength of the flare."
Why would filing it flat make a difference? The end surface
faces up and outward from the flare surface and the cutter makes certain the
end is square whereas the file might easily distort the cut. I use a RIDGID
rolling-cone model. It seems to flare the end particularly accurately so I
don't worry if it's outside the flare. Am I wrong?
"You can cut the tube with a hacksaw but you better file it square and flat
on the end and deburr it before you flare it."
Perhaps it would take extraordinary care to clean EVERY filing
mote out of the flare area to prevent distortion, plus a crooked cut would
reduce flare area on the short side.
Regards, Ferg
diesel Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning |
Bob,
Thanks for the response.
One further question about the LV lamp with the controller. Can I
replace the incandescent lamp with an LED with appropriate current
limiting series resistor?
RHDudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >I have two related questions.
> >
> >1. I plan to use the B & C Alternator Controller with a B & C
> >alternator. Does the lamp attached to pin 5 indicate OV or low voltage?
> >If it indicates OV, is there a provision for indicating low voltage?
> >[that's 2 questions in 1]
>
> The lamp will flash any time the bus voltage drops BELOW 13.0 volts.
> If you have OV protection, you don't need an indicator specific to
> an OV problem . . . within milliseconds of OV onset, the system is
> shut down and the LV light begins to flash a few seconds later.
>
> >2. If the controller does not provide for low voltage warning, then I
> >refer to your 9021-610 "Schmatic Diagram - Low Voltage Warning". Is
> >there a convenient way to add a "test" switch to check for functioning
> >of the LED when the voltage is normal?
>
> Sure, just shut the alternator off. It doesn't hurt to do this in
> flight but it shouldn't be necessary either. The light will begin
> to flash as soon as you turn the master on and before the engine
> is started. This provides for automatic preflight testing of the
> circuit when the light goes out after the alternator comes on line.
> But if you have a B&C controller, you don't need the critter in
> 9021-610.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org> |
Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 02/20/02 |
>
> Further, knowing its limitations, we can now plan to accommodate
> its shortcomings during an alternator-out situation . . . here's
> a strong selling point for a second alternator - even if it's
> the itty-bitty feller from B&C . . .
Time for me to display more ignorance... Doesn't a second alternator consume
the
place usually reserved for the vacuum pump?
There seems to be significant concern over alternator failure. I've never
personally
encountered this, but I'm only a 300-hour pilot. Do modern alternators really
fail
that often that we're SO concerned about it? If it's once every 5000 hours,
can't
we just plan a proper essential buss with one nav/com, the landing lights, and
our other true essentials -- then plan to land asap if the alternator goes?
I don't think very many of us are planning hard-IFR airplanes. How much
redundancy
do we wisely plan for -- knowing that's now TWO alternators that have a chance
to
fail, plus the extra weight and system complexity, etc....
-Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
>
> > Thanks to all who responded for the diode question
>
>There is a simple way to eliminate the voltage drop when driving the
>essential bus only. It requires that the essential bus and "radio" bus be
>one in the same (i.e., a radio master switch turns on the same bus as the
>alternate feed switch).
There are specific reasons for using a diode instead of a hard
switch or relay contact to effect the normal feedpath between
the main and essential busses. Further, a "voltage drop" on
the order of .6 to .7 volts is not significant with respect
to operation of equipment on the e-bus.
Consider that the alternate feedpath to the e-bus is there to
provide 10.5 to 12.5 volts to the equipment when the alternator
is down . . . 10.5 to 12.5 is all you're going to get out
of a battery but we reasonably expect equipment on the bus to
function in a useful manner.
When the alternator is working, the main bus is 13.8 to 14.6
volts . . . throw away 0.7 volts in the e-bus normal feed diode
and you have 13.1 to 13.9 volts on the e-bus. Quit a bit higher
than with battery-only operations.
Bottom line is that the diode drop affects performance in no
way that anyone would notice.
> It is a little tough to explain without a drawing,
>but here goes. Ignoring fuses in this discussion, a line goes from the main
>(run by the relay) bus to a "radio master" switch, then to the essential
>(radio) bus. Another line comes from the battery (always hot) bus to an
>"alternate feed" switch, and then to the same essential (radio) bus. The
>trick with the diode is to put it across the "radio master" switch with the
>proper polarity. The diode doesn't "feed" anything this way, it simply
>prevents the juice coming through the "alternate feed" switch from back
>powering the main bus. The loss of alternator procedure would be: 1. close
>the "alternate feed" switch, 2. open the "radio master" switch, 3. turn off
>the master switch controlling the relay. The "alternate feed" and "radio
>master" switches would preferably be a double pole, three position switch,
>although mine are two separate, single pole double throw switches. There is
>no power interuption to the essential bus when switching as in the above.
This architecture requires the pilot to operate switches in a specific
sequence to avoid overloading the e-bus alternate feed path because
the normal feed path switch was still closed. The diode eliminates
possibility for error and eliminates one switch from the panel.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Battery Bus - variations on a theme |
>
>
>Dear Listers,
>
>While the notion of a battery buss, or in my case, dual battery busses is
>a fine way of having non-switchable power to some devices, does anyone
>have any thoughts about this (simpler) idea?
>
>I'm thinking of simply hardwiring my electronic ignitions to the hot side
>of their respective battery contactors, with circuit protection provided
>by fusible links. In the words of E.B. "Lower parts count = higher
>reliability".
>
>What say you folks out there?
Not sure you gain much here. Recall that EVERY device required
for comfortable completion of flight needs a backup. It's
only necessary to make sure that no single failure takes down
both systems. In speaking of "single failure" we're talking
about faults that have a high order of probability. For example,
you don't have a spare wing spar or a dual crankshaft because
we've learned how to size and fabricate these components so
that likelihood of failure is extremely remote.
So, when you have only one battery in the airplane (even with
two alternators) we're concerned with making connection with
the battery in a manner that has a very low order of failure
rate . . . nice, lightly stressed jumper wires connected with
fat bolts that are not over or under torqued. We're also going
to maintain the battery so that it's internal workings are
dependable as well. We'll take equal care in the installation
and maintenance of wiring to the battery bus.
This philosophy offers very high orders of system reliability.
In the all-electric-airplane-on-a-budget, a dual electronic
ignition system would want to run one system from the main
bus and the other from the battery bus so that the only
common wiring to the battery for both systems are the the
robust components cited above. If you have one alternator,
then I'd install a second battery and run ignitions from
separate battery busses . . . The aux battery can be
(1) same size as main battery and share in cranking
duties or (2) smaller critter used only to support the
second ignition system during alternator-out operations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning (LED with LR3B-14 controller) |
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for the response.
>One further question about the LV lamp with the controller. Can I
>replace the incandescent lamp with an LED with appropriate current
>limiting series resistor?
That question popped up here a couple of days ago:
warning pin on LR3B-14
Dear Bob,
I'm using the LR3B-14 in my Lancair ES, and am having a bit of trouble
getting the OV warning function to work. Instead of using an incandescent
bulb on the panel, I'm using pin 5 of the LR3B as an input to a warning
light panel of my own design. The warning light panel uses opto-isolators
as the front end, and can be jumper-configured for either active (on) high,
or active low.
The total current through the front end is approx. 6.5mA per channel.
I set up my voltage warning as active low, assuming that pin 5 would be
pulled low when the voltage is out of the window. My warning light,
however, stays on all the time. I've traced the wiring, and it seems
correct; also, the other 9 warning lights function as intended.
Can you see any reason why this shouldn't work? I'm guessing that pin 5
is an open-collector type output, since it sinks current from the lamp in
the usual schematic shown by B&C. Is it possible that some small current
flows into pin 5 all the time? This might not make an incandescent lamp
light, but may be enough to trigger my warning light panel. Just guessin
there.
Jim,
It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for
configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should illuminate
IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the output
transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a
warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a
level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but
it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up
resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp.
Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp)
and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the
lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage"
resistor inside.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 02/20/02 |
>
>
> >
> > Further, knowing its limitations, we can now plan to accommodate
> > its shortcomings during an alternator-out situation . . . here's
> > a strong selling point for a second alternator - even if it's
> > the itty-bitty feller from B&C . . .
>
>Time for me to display more ignorance... Doesn't a second alternator consume
>the place usually reserved for the vacuum pump?
You betcha . . . vacuum systems suck both literally and figuratively . . .
When you get rid of a vacuum pump you KNOW is going to fail and replace
it with an alternator that has no slip-rings or brushes, one moving part
and a track record of very long trouble free service, you now have
an opportunity to get pounds/hours of plumbing installation out
of the airplane and do it all with wires. See:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/allelect.pdf
>There seems to be significant concern over alternator failure. I've never
>personally
>encountered this, but I'm only a 300-hour pilot. Do modern alternators really
>fail
>that often that we're SO concerned about it? If it's once every 5000 hours,
>can't
>we just plan a proper essential buss with one nav/com, the landing lights, and
>our other true essentials -- then plan to land asap if the alternator goes?
Alternators on most certified airplanes are demonstrated junk. Just
check the service difficulty reports on single engine aircraft on
FAA website.
A modern Nipon-Denso alternator on an aircraft engine may well run
through several lifetimes of the engine. B&C's rate of return
on their ND alternators for over 2,000 sold and 10+ years of
service has been under 10% for the FLEET and none have been returned
for wearout or failure. Virtually all repairs were for accidental or
customer
induced damage.
Why land ASAP? Why would you design an electrical system with
any less endurance that fuel aboard?
>I don't think very many of us are planning hard-IFR airplanes. How much
>redundancy
>do we wisely plan for -- knowing that's now TWO alternators that have a chance
>to
>fail, plus the extra weight and system complexity, etc....
The two alternators cited in the article above are much
simpler in total parts count than an electric/vacuum combination
and when using modern hardware, many times more reliable.
Most failures you'll experience will not be from failure
of the alternator but some component associated with the
alternator that may take it off line. The whole thrust
of this architecture is less weight, install time, easier
maintenance and increased reliability. Further, while the
installed cost may be higher due to electric gyros (this
will change as the solid state replacements become more common)
the cost of ownership will be less.
Doesn't matter if you plan to fly hard IFR or not. If you have
the equipment in your airplane, you're generally motivated to
keep it all working else why would you have installed it in
the first place?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com> |
Subject: | Diesel electrics (long) |
No not locomotives. These thoughts are perhaps of interest to Fergus, though
other opinions are welcome.
I have been thinking about an electrical architecture for an airplane with a
Wilksch diesel engine. Once running this engine is essentially "electricity
free", i.e. it requires no ignition or FADEC and can be fitted with a
hydraulic CS prop. It does have electronic instrumentation, but a mechanical
fuel pressure gauge and thermocouple CHT are recommended to provide minimal
backup independent of ship's electrics. An electric fuel pump is a backup,
but the engine will normally run without it.
Starting however is electrically demmanding. The glow plugs draw 10 amps per
cylinder. These must be energised for a short while before cranking as well
as simultaneously with cranking. Starting current may exceed 220 amps.
Conventionally you would have a heavy duty battery master contactor
connecting the battery to the main bus. From this contactor a fat cable runs
to the starter motor at the front of the engine which has an internal
contactor to control cranking. You also need a relay rated at about 40 amps
to control the glow plugs. If this is mounted on the firewall it would also
be connected to the bus side of the battery master contactor.
So I need a big contactor and a 40 amp relay. Now for some lateral thinking.
Suppose I reverse the roles of these two components. The connection from the
big contactor to the starter motor remains as before but now the glow plugs
are wired directly from the starter motor feed so that they are energised
when the big contactor is energised. The big contactor now becomes a "start
master". Its function to control the glow plugs and to provide the required
secondary means of de energising the starter motor if the internal contactor
should stick. It would be controlled by a positive line from a momentary
"start power" toggle switch positioned about an inch below the starter
button so you could hold this switch up whilst pressing the starter with
your thumb. I would not use a key switch since that would compromise the
independence of the two circuits that control power to the starter motor.
The 40 amp relay then becomes the battery master feeding the main bus and
connects to the battery side of the big contactor. This relay does not have
to carry starting current and as I am planning a day VFR airplane without
landing or nav lights (no big inrush loads) I don't really need a big
contactor to feed the main bus. The alternator is only rated at 28 amps.
I think this has several advantages:
The big contactor only has to serve intermittent duty.
The cable to the starter motor is not live during flight, reducing the risk
if it should chaff and short.
The battery master relay draws little hold in current. (though the e bus
architecture also circumvents this issue)
It is possible to position the battery ammeter shunt where it will not carry
the starter and glow plug loads, but will register all bus loads including
the e bus alternate feed.
About the only down side I can think of is that if the big contactor sticks
on the glow plugs remain energised until the battery is disconnected.
However this fault is only likely to occur on the ground and there will be a
glow energised warning. It is not dangerous (compared to a stuck starter
motor).
Not sure I've thought this through completely though.........
Piers
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kent/Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
Uncle Bob,
You've probably seen the rock-simple fuel guage in Long-Ezes: a slick area
in side of
the fiberglass where the fuel level shows through.
If you were drill a small hole in the bottom of the gauge (bottom of the tank)
and pot
in an LED, do you think that would be safe? The LED would be bathed in fuel, but
they don't
get hot, as I recall.
Any idea what material the clear LED material is made of or whether it would
be fuel
resistant?
The idea would be to add more contrast to the fuel level for higher visibility,
or for
night flying. Thanks, I've gotten a lot out of your book for homebuilders.
--Kent Ashton
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
> This architecture requires the pilot to operate switches in a specific
> sequence to avoid overloading the e-bus alternate feed path because
> the normal feed path switch was still closed. The diode eliminates
> possibility for error and eliminates one switch from the panel.
Only if they are two separate switches - a three position (up for normal,
down for alternate) would eliminate the sequence requirement. One must
still remember to turn off the master in either case. Perhaps the best
would be a three position master, with up being normal, mid being everything
off, and down being alternate feed through a diode. I don't like anything
being on when down, but food for thought.
Alex
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Harry Crosby wrote:
> They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I
> forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid
> unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another
> item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to.
Bob, I just took dilivery of a Navaid for my Super Rebel and was suprised
after reading your book to see the above "warning" in their manual.
I would give them a call to see if it "is really true" but am way out of my
league on this one.
Would you consider a call on behalf of the list?
Navaid Devices, Inc.
641 North Market Street
Chattanooga, Tennessee 37405
(423) 267-3311 - Office
(423) 756-6154 - Fax
info@navaid-devices.com - email
Don Boardman
& Partner
Randy Bowers
SR130 Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Not sure I follow you 100% Alex, but I think I get the idea......this got
me thinking though....started scribbling schematics on a piece of paper
today, and wondered why any diodes are needed at all?? Couldn't the
diodes in 'Lectric Bob's schematics can't simply be replaced by a switch?
To avoid having to add a separate switch and complicating things
functionally in the cockpit, my thinking is that the "Essential" bus
toggle switch on the panel could be a DPDT. There would be two separate
paths going through the switch, both of them going to the Essential bus.
One would be just like Bob's schematics, feeding directly from the
battery to the Essential bus, and the other would simply replace the
diodes in the schematic, feeding from the master solenoid main bus to the
Essential bus. The DPDT switch would be wired such that in the "off"
position, the path from the main bus to the Ess bus would be closed and
the path directly from the battery would be open. In the "on" position,
just the opposite....the path from the main bus would be open (preventing
the Ess bus from feeding power back into the main bus just like the
diodes, only without the voltage drop) and the path from the battery
would be closed to feed the Ess bus.
Does that make any sense??? Not trying to reinvent the wheel needlessly,
just curious to know if there's a reason not to do it this way....I can't
imagine the failure mode analysis would be much worse if any (granted
both paths to the Ess bus now go through one switch, but since they go
through separate contacts, both positions of the switch would have to
fail to lose everything on that bus). On the plus side, you probly save
a few cents, a few ounces, and a bit of time by eliminating the
diodes.....and you could connect your voltmeter to the Ess bus and always
read the correct voltage throughout the system without the diode drop.
What am I missing? Bob?? (Happy to fax a schematic if my description
makes no sense).
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A fitting canopy....
_______
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ess Bus feed - Diodes
> Thanks to all who responded for the diode question
There is a simple way to eliminate the voltage drop when driving the
essential bus only. It requires that the essential bus and "radio" bus be
one in the same (i.e., a radio master switch turns on the same bus as the
alternate feed switch). It is a little tough to explain without a
drawing,
but here goes. Ignoring fuses in this discussion, a line goes from the
main
(run by the relay) bus to a "radio master" switch, then to the essential
(radio) bus. Another line comes from the battery (always hot) bus to an
"alternate feed" switch, and then to the same essential (radio) bus. The
trick with the diode is to put it across the "radio master" switch with
the
proper polarity. The diode doesn't "feed" anything this way, it simply
prevents the juice coming through the "alternate feed" switch from back
powering the main bus. The loss of alternator procedure would be: 1.
close
the "alternate feed" switch, 2. open the "radio master" switch, 3. turn
off
the master switch controlling the relay. The "alternate feed" and "radio
master" switches would preferably be a double pole, three position
switch,
although mine are two separate, single pole double throw switches. There
is
no power interuption to the essential bus when switching as in the above.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
6A N66AP flying 91 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: LEDs in fuel |
>
>
>Uncle Bob,
> You've probably seen the rock-simple fuel guage in Long-Ezes: a slick
> area in side of
>the fiberglass where the fuel level shows through.
> If you were drill a small hole in the bottom of the gauge (bottom of
> the tank) and pot
>in an LED, do you think that would be safe? The LED would be bathed in
>fuel, but they don't
>get hot, as I recall.
> Any idea what material the clear LED material is made of or whether
> it would be fuel
>resistant?
> The idea would be to add more contrast to the fuel level for higher
> visibility, or for
>night flying. Thanks, I've gotten a lot out of your book for homebuilders.
An led or even a light bulb would be okay for this application.
Not sure as to compatibility of LED material with respect to
fuel. Get an LED from radio shack and put it into a small jar
with some avgas and let it soak for awhile. I suspect it will
be okay. There are some high intensity white LEDs avaialble
now for about $3 each in small quantities. These are used
in the Photon II series keychain flashlights . . . a lot of
light for the power consumption and size.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
>
> > This architecture requires the pilot to operate switches in a specific
> > sequence to avoid overloading the e-bus alternate feed path because
> > the normal feed path switch was still closed. The diode eliminates
> > possibility for error and eliminates one switch from the panel.
>
>
>Only if they are two separate switches - a three position (up for normal,
>down for alternate) would eliminate the sequence requirement. One must
>still remember to turn off the master in either case. Perhaps the best
>would be a three position master, with up being normal, mid being everything
>off, and down being alternate feed through a diode. I don't like anything
>being on when down, but food for thought.
What happens when the do-all switch breaks a spring?
I've had some builders suggest a single pole three position
switch for the e-bus . . . DWN = alt feed, MID = off and UP
normal feed. Again, failure of single device kills the bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
> Harry Crosby wrote:
>
> > They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I
> > forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid
> > unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another
> > item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to.
>
>Bob, I just took dilivery of a Navaid for my Super Rebel and was suprised
>after reading your book to see the above "warning" in their manual.
>
>I would give them a call to see if it "is really true" but am way out of my
>league on this one.
>
>Would you consider a call on behalf of the list?
I've written to them twice in the past year but received no
response. I'll try calling them.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "W T Bartlett" <wtbartlett(at)Prodigy.net> |
Subject: | Re: Tube flaring |
Peculiar subject for an AeroElectrics.
Back at the beginning of the Korean an uncle (hyd mech for Boeing 1942-1946)
taught me to pass the trade test for Grand Central Aircraft, who were
remanufacturing B29s. My uncle designed the trade test for Grand Central. I
passed the trade test easily and worked for Grand Central , as a hyd mech,
'tll I got drafted a year later.
The tubing part of the test consisted of installing two bulkhead AN fittings
centered inside opposite sides of a 3" Al channel on 3" centers. We then
had to cut, flare, bend, and put AN fittings on 1/4" Al tube and attach it
to the bulkhead fittings on opposite interior sides of the channel. I
learned to calculate the length of the tube, which I then cut with a tubing
cutter, . The first end of the tube was then clamped in the flaring dies
with the end extending just beyond the edge of the dies. the end was squared
with a smooth-cut file by filing it down flush with the dies. I deburred the
inside of the tube ends with the pointed deburring tube attached to the
cutter, the outside was deburred with a smooth-cut file held at 45deg . Even
cheap dies (obviously not aircraft type) are file hard and files won't cut
them if the file is held flat. The deburred tube was replaced in the dies
with the deburred end even with the outside of the dies, clamped and flared.
The two thimbles and sleeves are slid on and the other end is
squared,deburred and flared.
Bill N7WB
>
>
> Why wouldn't you use the tool DESIGNED for the job in the first place??
(the tubing cutter) It gives
> a nice square cut, is extremely easy to accurately position, is quick and
simple to use and WORKS. A
> simple deburr with your swivel deburring tool and you are ready to flare.
( with your 37 degree
> aircraft burnishing style flaring tool) Do not use an automotive 45 degree
double flare, it WILL
> fail. All your substitute tools, (hacksaw, dremel, axe, file etc.) leave
the possibility of an out
> of square cut or out of round tube. You don't rivet with an axe and an
anvil, you don't tighten
> screws with a chisel, you use the purpose built tools for those jobs so
why wouldn't you use the
> appropriate tools for properly preparing tube connections as well???????
> And - - - - as someone else suggested, how 'bout moving this discussion
from the "electrical" forum
> to one of the more general building forums???? although it's an aircraft
topic it's a long way from
> electrical.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Rob Mokry <robmokry(at)pacbell.net> |
It seems it should be turned off for startup, taxi and take off should you
accidently start up with the switch in track mode and manage to take off. Mine
is switched.
Don Boardman wrote:
>
> Harry Crosby wrote:
>
> > They also say that the Navaid "must" be switched off during startup. I
> > forgot to ask Richard why. Has anybody been running their Navaid
> > unswitched? I'd rather not make room for another switch (and another
> > item on the startup checklist) if I don't need to.
>
> Bob, I just took dilivery of a Navaid for my Super Rebel and was suprised
> after reading your book to see the above "warning" in their manual.
>
> I would give them a call to see if it "is really true" but am way out of my
> league on this one.
>
> Would you consider a call on behalf of the list?
>
> Navaid Devices, Inc.
> 641 North Market Street
> Chattanooga, Tennessee 37405
>
> (423) 267-3311 - Office
> (423) 756-6154 - Fax
> info@navaid-devices.com - email
>
> Don Boardman
> & Partner
> Randy Bowers
> SR130 Rome, NY
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
> What happens when the do-all switch breaks a spring?
>
> I've had some builders suggest a single pole three position
> switch for the e-bus . . . DWN = alt feed, MID = off and UP
> normal feed. Again, failure of single device kills the bus.
>
> Bob . . .
So for this "Jesus switch" you get the best mil spec toggle switch you can
find. What is the probability of it failing in a way that inops both poles?
If it is the same order of magnitude as failure of he battery then this
might not be unreasonable?
Piers
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Single pt of failure (was Ess Bus feed - Diodes) |
> > normal feed. Again, failure of single device
> kills the bus.
I remember proposing a simpler alternative to control
the contactors and essential bus. Essentially, I was
trying to reduce the number of operations (not
parts)in case of an alternator failure and I was also
trying to prevent possible errors for normal
operations (like not charging the second battery).
The simpler solution I see is to control both
contactors from a single Master switch. Then, for
each contactor, have a test switch so everything can
be tested at startup. The test spst switch would be
located between the master switch and a contactor. In
this configuration, in case of an alternator failure,
I turn on the ess bus and shut of the one master
switch and continue to get ventilated by that big fan
in front of the plane, keeping a smile (not because of
that switch arrangement since the ignition will be fed
by the battery bus, not by the main bus).
However, this not only create a single point of
failure for both electrical systems, but it also add a
second point of failure for each one of those systems.
This said, my current thinking is that while a switch
will eventually fail, the impact of that failure
should be minimal.... exactly as the impact of an
alternator failure should be minimal.
If one of my contactor fails (open), my master switch
fails (open) or any of the contactor test switches
fail (open), I still have the essential bus alternate
feed as an option.
From my (limited) experience, switches can also failed
closed (contacts welds together I suppose). In this
case, by having the test switches, I help myself as
this gives me a second opportunity to open the circuit
to shut down the electrical system (a sort of shadow
master switch).
I may be missing something important, but it seems to
me that a single point of failure in the main
electrical system will not cause me more problems in
flight than the failure of an alternator.
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://sports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ess Bus feed - Diodes |
>
>
> > What happens when the do-all switch breaks a spring?
> >
> > I've had some builders suggest a single pole three position
> > switch for the e-bus . . . DWN = alt feed, MID = off and UP
> > normal feed. Again, failure of single device kills the bus.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>So for this "Jesus switch" you get the best mil spec toggle switch you can
>find. What is the probability of it failing in a way that inops both poles?
>If it is the same order of magnitude as failure of he battery then this
>might not be unreasonable?
"Reasonable" is a subjective evaluation. Certainly many
builders have found it so and many more will in the future.
If it were my airplane, I'd rather have two $7 switches than
one $30 switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Alternative architectures . . . |
>
> > > normal feed. Again, failure of single device
> > kills the bus.
>
>I remember proposing a simpler alternative to control
>the contactors and essential bus. Essentially, I was
>trying to reduce the number of operations (not
>parts)in case of an alternator failure
Okay, let's talk about operations. If the low
voltage light comes on, BATTERY MASTER - OFF,
E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. If you want to reduce this,
you can run the E-BUS ALT FEED in the on condition
in normal flight so if the low voltage light comes
on you have only one switch to turn off. This is
easy to safeguard since the low voltage warning
light drives off the main bus . . . it will flash
at you until the main bus goes cold.
>and I was also
>trying to prevent possible errors for normal
>operations (like not charging the second battery).
If you can "forget" to turn one switch on, you can
forget to turn any switch on . . . rearrangement
of architecture will not change the possibility/probability
of failure to operate any particular switch.
In a few weeks, we'll be offering a bare board and
fully assembled versions of the ignition battery
management module (written up in several articles
in SA and on our website). We MIGHT also offer an
unassembled kit . . . not sure yet. The prototype
boards are in hand and we're proofing the layout
and instructions.
Adding the IBMM to your system will PREVENT
inadvertent placement of the AUX BATTERY - ON.
This device can be wired to automatically close
the aux battery contactor any time the bus is
over 13.0 volts.
>The simpler solution I see is to control both
>contactors from a single Master switch. Then, for
>each contactor, have a test switch so everything can
>be tested at startup. The test spst switch would be
>located between the master switch and a contactor. In
>this configuration, in case of an alternator failure,
>I turn on the ess bus and shut of the one master
>switch and continue to get ventilated by that big fan
>in front of the plane, keeping a smile (not because of
>that switch arrangement since the ignition will be fed
>by the battery bus, not by the main bus).
>
>However, this not only create a single point of
>failure for both electrical systems, but it also add a
>second point of failure for each one of those systems.
>
>This said, my current thinking is that while a switch
>will eventually fail, the impact of that failure
>should be minimal.... exactly as the impact of an
>alternator failure should be minimal.
>
>If one of my contactor fails (open), my master switch
>fails (open) or any of the contactor test switches
>fail (open), I still have the essential bus alternate
>feed as an option.
>
> From my (limited) experience, switches can also failed
>closed (contacts welds together I suppose). In this
>case, by having the test switches, I help myself as
>this gives me a second opportunity to open the circuit
>to shut down the electrical system (a sort of shadow
>master switch).
>
>I may be missing something important, but it seems to
>me that a single point of failure in the main
>electrical system will not cause me more problems in
>flight than the failure of an alternator.
Sooooo . . . the bottom line is that it's possible
to reduce the in-flight alternator failure response
to the operation of a single switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Craig Snively" <craigsn(at)hotmail.com> |
Looking thru chap. 14 of the AeroElectric Connection, Bob talks about
putting together a switch for multiple thermocouples and then into the
gauge (like Figure 14-11, View B). I'm looking for a faston terminal
strip to do that with providing I should use faston connectors on
thermocouple wire. I'm also looking for a source for the thermocouple
connectors (ala Figure 14-13 View B).
Thanks
Craig
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
Subject: | Re: Diesel electrics (long) |
>These thoughts are perhaps of interest to Fergus
And to one or two others too!
>I have been thinking about an electrical architecture for an airplane with a
>Wilksch diesel engine
I'd be glad to hear any authoritative views on this topic. I'm
planning to use air gyros, driven from the bleed air that Mark
Wilksch says will be available. So, I hope to have light loads once
running. However, I know from many years of driving diesel cars that
the starting process is the critical one. My first diesel always
started so readily that the battery was well on its way out before I
realised it (about 8 years from new, so I should have been expecting
it!). If it could get past the first compression, it would fire &
run, and I didn't realise how near the edge I was getting until the
battery finally quit completely.
[I plan to be a bit more pro-active on battery status in my Europa,
whatever engine I finally fit!]
My current diesel car takes more cranking to fire (same make so not
sure why - maybe because this one turbocharged?) but that certainly
shows up any lack of enthusiasm in the battery department.
There are so many other good things going for the diesel that I don't
want another weight problem to be the show-stopper. The engine itself
is of course relatively heavy, and lugging a heavy battery around
just because it's needed for the few seconds of startup seems a bit
of a pity.
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | solenoide wiring |
Hi Bob or others,
I'm wiring my airplane and I have a question. I look at differents wiring
schematic's and saw they generally put the wire from battery contactor on
the left side of the solenoide, (view when installed on the firewall). Is
that a must? I've a space problem and i'd prefer to put it on the right
side of my four branchs starter contactor. Is that possible to reverse it.
Daniel
601HDS
wiring and panel
Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com/fr
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: solenoide wiring |
>
>
>
>Hi Bob or others,
>
>I'm wiring my airplane and I have a question. I look at differents wiring
>schematic's and saw they generally put the wire from battery contactor on
>the left side of the solenoide, (view when installed on the firewall). Is
>that a must? I've a space problem and i'd prefer to put it on the right
>side of my four branchs starter contactor. Is that possible to reverse it.
>
>Daniel
If you have a 4-terminal contactor like our S701-1
(see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg )
You can interchange the fat terminals even tho the one
on left may be marked "BAT" . . . in fact, both sets
of terminals are interchangeable.
If you have a 3-terminal contactor, the you MUST use
the "left hand" fat terminal as the battery feed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Alternative architectures . . . |
>
>
> Okay, let's talk about operations. If the low
> voltage light comes on, BATTERY MASTER - OFF,
> E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. If you want to reduce this,
> you can run the E-BUS ALT FEED in the on condition
> in normal flight so if the low voltage light comes
> on you have only one switch to turn off. This is
> easy to safeguard since the low voltage warning
> light drives off the main bus . . . it will flash
> at you until the main bus goes cold.
>
>Bob, if you leave the E-BUS ALT FEED on during normal operations I assume
>you would read full system voltage on the E-BUS. Not that it is needed as
>you say, but is that correct.
Yes . . . in fact, some builders have put their
only voltmeter feed on the e-bus knowing that the
time they REALLY need it is during battery only ops . . .
They have the option of knowing further that the main bus
is 0.7 volts higher and doing the mental calculation to
arrive at the alternator setpoint . . . or as you have
accurately stated, closing the e-bus alternate feed
will raise the e-bus closer to the main bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Subject: | Some welding cable specs |
Cheers,
This is not a deep research paper, and perhaps bears filling out
with better-established figures, but I went round to the local supplies shop
and got #2 and #4 welding cable samples. I cut both to exactly 12"=1 foot
and popped same onto the digital scale. These are very flexible lines (wish
I'd had same to rebuild the odd WW II machine instead of wrestling with the
usual boas) and may be attractive in particular spots. They are covered with
a healthy rubber covering, but I would guess that a plastic sheath might
protect against chafing.
WIRE
Samples are 600V, range +105/ -50degC, rubber-covered:
#4 SWG weighs 59.9 grams/foot, diameter is 0.40 inches
#2 SWG weighs 127.0 grams/foot, diameter is 0.50 inches.
I have found that the #2 slides easily into 1/2inch underground lawn
irrigation tubing at 15gm/ft. so should be useful for glassing in conduit
where required. The #2 also is easily bent into 1inch radius curves, FWIW.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | RE: Alternative architectures . . . |
>
>My comment wasn't about BATTERY MASTER - OFF,
>E-BUS ALT FEED - ON. I realized that I am mixing up
>the subject here as this was the current topic (one
>switch for all). I am OK with e-bus on, master off
>(why do I prefer that sequence?) However, I am trying
>to avoid having to flip TWO master switches On or Off.
looks like the IBMM is for you . . . for most normal
operations you never have to touch the aux battery
switch. If it's a mini-aux battery used for ignition
backup only, then the aux battery switch could be left
in AUTO/OFF all the time or even deleted from the panel.
If you have a twin-aux battery useful for cranking,
then the only time you'd find it useful to turn on
the second battery manually is if you'd like to
improve cranking performance . . . but the main
battery should get the engine going just fine too.
> For most people who spend more time in rented
>aircrafts, this is not intuitive and I'm sure that if
>anyone ever flies my plane, he would get mixed up
>trying to understand the checklist or responding to a
>failure situation. There will be two electrical
>systems and I would like them to be operated as two
>systems, not three.
Then just leave the aux battery master off the
panel, put in a IBMM and use the main battery
only for cranking.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com> |
Subject: | Re: solenoide wiring |
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: solenoide wiring
>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:48:18 -0600
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Bob or others,
> >
> >I'm wiring my airplane and I have a question. I look at differents
>wiring
> >schematic's and saw they generally put the wire from battery contactor on
> >the left side of the solenoide, (view when installed on the firewall).
>Is
> >that a must? I've a space problem and i'd prefer to put it on the right
> >side of my four branchs starter contactor. Is that possible to reverse
>it.
> >
> >Daniel
>
> If you have a 4-terminal contactor like our S701-1
> (see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg )
> You can interchange the fat terminals even tho the one
> on left may be marked "BAT" . . . in fact, both sets
> of terminals are interchangeable.
>
> If you have a 3-terminal contactor, the you MUST use
> the "left hand" fat terminal as the battery feed.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
Thanks Bob.
MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos :
http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net> |
Subject: | how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a
year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it
up? Is there a Viagra for batteries?
Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord
RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Michael Pilla" <mpilla(at)maine.rr.com> |
Subject: | Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
Try placing a higher voltage, momentarily, across the battery contacts.
For example, if the battery pack is 1.2V (typical cell voltage), then
just momentarily connect a flashlight battery (1.5V) with the same
polarity. If you have two cells in series, then use 3V, etc. I've even
taken a 9V battery to "shock" a 6V, nominal, NiCd pack. This is a trick
learned years ago when flying RC models.
Apparently this cuts through the crud and now you can charge the
battery(s) with standard NiCd charger.
The key is to only "tap" the final connection or just "swipe" it. You
don't want to hold it too long - it will ruin the pack. I measure with
a volt-meter and can see when the shock has caused the pack/cell to get
up to a point where regular charging will work.
Also, you will have to charge, deep discharge, charge a few times to get
the cell back to close to normal.
Good luck.
Michael Pilla
----- Original Message -----
From: " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
>
> The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more
than a
> year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to
get it
> up? Is there a Viagra for batteries?
> Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord
> RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging!
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
=
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Kay <skay(at)optonline.net> |
Subject: | Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
Ni-Cads will reverse if allowed to discharge low enough. I'd give a ring or check
the SR batteries Web site. They are super friendly and probably know more about
NiCads than any one. mailto:request(at)srbatteries.com
Michael Pilla wrote:
>
> Try placing a higher voltage, momentarily, across the battery contacts.
>
> For example, if the battery pack is 1.2V (typical cell voltage), then
> just momentarily connect a flashlight battery (1.5V) with the same
> polarity. If you have two cells in series, then use 3V, etc. I've even
> taken a 9V battery to "shock" a 6V, nominal, NiCd pack. This is a trick
> learned years ago when flying RC models.
>
> Apparently this cuts through the crud and now you can charge the
> battery(s) with standard NiCd charger.
>
> The key is to only "tap" the final connection or just "swipe" it. You
> don't want to hold it too long - it will ruin the pack. I measure with
> a volt-meter and can see when the shock has caused the pack/cell to get
> up to a point where regular charging will work.
>
> Also, you will have to charge, deep discharge, charge a few times to get
> the cell back to close to normal.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Michael Pilla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: " theslumlord" <theslumlord(at)mediaone.net>
> To: "aeroelectric"
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: how to revive dead NiCad batteries
>
>
> >
> > The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more
> than a
> > year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to
> get it
> > up? Is there a Viagra for batteries?
> > Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord
> > RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging!
> >
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
In a message dated 2/23/02 7:41:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
skay(at)optonline.net writes:
>
>
--This is true if the NiCad cell is used in a series battery pack (which is
almost always the configuration). If you consider a series pack of say, 10
cells, the nominal voltage of the pack will be 12 volts. This battery pack
will be a 12 volt current source until one of the cells is depleted first
(all cells are different slightly and one will have the least capacity and
will be dead first). The other series wired cells will continue to be
current sources while the dead one is not. The resultant series current
passes through the dead cell backwards (this cell is no longer a source of
current) and causes it to take on a reverse charge. A single cell all by
itself (not in a pack) will not reverse charge simply from being discharged
100%.
Because of the physical design of the cell, it will ultimately be damaged by
the heat of a reverse charge current. The "pack" example above will perform
with a lower output voltage now (1.2 V less) and will be hindered by a rise
in total internal resistance caused by the dead cell that must pass the total
series current of the rest of the current producing good cells.
The old advise that you need to discharge NiCad cells to zero volts to allow
them to take on a full charge is true but only if you do it to a single cell
or at a very low discharge current in a pack configuration (don't heat up the
dead ones with reverse current).
The next time you use your favorite cordless drill, take note of it's
performance and when you experience a slight drop in speed or torque, stop
using that battery pack and return it to the charger. Driving that "almost
home" last screw with this pack will eventually ruin it. It has just shown
you that it has at least one dead cell in it.
John Z.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net> |
Subject: | Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
Here is a sledgehammer approach (Warning battery may explode!):
This will probably only work if you can get access to the individual cells in the
battery pack:
Briefly (as in a fraction of a second) apply power to each "dead" (as measured
with a
voltmeter) cell from a 12 volt car battery. Make sure you have identified the polarity
of the cell before doing it. Start applying the voltage very briefly - as in striking
a match, then try recharging. If no luck, try a bit longer, but not more than a
couple
of seconds, recharge, etc. Feel how hot the cell gets before being tempted to apply
the 12 volts for a longer time.
You'll probably find that most of the cells have a small voltage across them and
one
or two have zero volts. It's the ones with zero volts you need to revive (remove
internal short by applying 10 times the normal voltage - 12 volts instead of 1.2
volts).
Hope this helps, but be careful, not a bad idea to wear gloves and a face shield.
Finn
theslumlord wrote:
>
> The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a
> year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it
> up? Is there a Viagra for batteries?
> Ralph Bookout, Certified Slumlord
> RV-6 finishing while batteries are discharging!
----------------------------------------------------
Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today
Only $9.95 per month!
http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
Finn Lassen wrote:
>
>
> Here is a sledgehammer approach (Warning battery may explode!):
*** Been there, done that. The zapped cells never last :(. What happens
is that fine "dendrites" of metal form across the cell, shorting it out.
When you zap the cell, you break the dendrites. But I imagine they're still
mostly there.
My preferred zapping technique was to use a fairly small current-limited
power supply in parallel with a very LARGE electrolytic capacitor. The
supply would throw a bunch of electrons into the cap, and when I touched it
to the shorted cell, all those electrons would immediately be thrown into
it. But it was self-limiting, because the cap only held so many electrons.
If the cells aren't totally potted, you could go down to the radio shack
and get one or more "cordless phone" battery packs - and just replace the
cells.
This is why I find Nicads a Bad Deal for a handheld. Nicads need to
be constantly used, or they just don't work out very well. My KX-99 is
loaded with alkalines, which I change out once a year, whether it
needs it or not.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: how to revive dead NiCad batteries |
Alkalines may be good for something that is rarely used, but for things
that get used a lot, I love the NiMH batteries... very high current
density, much better than NiCd and almost as good as alkalines in GPSes
and radios (much better than alkalines for digital cameras) But, they
have a self-discharge rate of 1-3% per day, so they need to be
used/recharged fairly often.
Incidentally, the manufacturers claim that NiMH batteries don't have
memory effect... that may be true that they are better than NiCd, but I
still believe I get better results if I deep-discharge them every few
months, and then immediately recharge them (never leave rechargeable
batteries completely discharged).
For my Lowrance GPS, I find that the alkalines last about 5-6 hrs, while
the NiMH last only about 4. I haven't tried a run-down test for the Icom
A22... in receive mode, they both last a long long time.
In my digital camera (Olympus D-500), I did a test - I could only get
about 40 shots per set of alkalines, while I got over 300 with NiMH.
(Incidentally, the "rechargeable alkalines" were worthless for the
camera - after the first recharge I could only get 15 shots, a few
recharges later and I could only get 3.)
I don't understand it, I just report it!
-John
jerry(at)tr2.com wrote:
>
>Finn Lassen wrote:
>
>>
>>Here is a sledgehammer approach (Warning battery may explode!):
>>
>
>*** Been there, done that. The zapped cells never last :(. What happens
>is that fine "dendrites" of metal form across the cell, shorting it out.
>When you zap the cell, you break the dendrites. But I imagine they're still
>mostly there.
>
> My preferred zapping technique was to use a fairly small current-limited
>power supply in parallel with a very LARGE electrolytic capacitor. The
>supply would throw a bunch of electrons into the cap, and when I touched it
>to the shorted cell, all those electrons would immediately be thrown into
>it. But it was self-limiting, because the cap only held so many electrons.
>
> If the cells aren't totally potted, you could go down to the radio shack
>and get one or more "cordless phone" battery packs - and just replace the
>cells.
>
> This is why I find Nicads a Bad Deal for a handheld. Nicads need to
>be constantly used, or they just don't work out very well. My KX-99 is
>loaded with alkalines, which I change out once a year, whether it
>needs it or not.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Reviving dead NiCad batteries |
>
>
>The NiCad in my handheld was used very little and allowed to sit more than a
>year unused. I can't get it to take a charge. Any ideas on how to get it
>up? Is there a Viagra for batteries?
There's going to be a LOT of response to this one. But
let's back off and consider larger issues. IF your hand
held is intended to be a backup for panel mounted equipment
(That's what my hand helds do . . in fact, hand helds
are my PRIMARY gps navigation aids), then consider trashing
the ni-cads and installing alkaline cells. Here's why:
(1) alkaline cells have a very long shelf life. Ni-Cads
have a self-discharge rate of 0.5% to 1.5% per DAY. On
average, a Ni-Cad left unattended for a month is seriously
down in stored energy. Further, there's the psychological
effect of not wanting to replace a rechargeable battery
very often because they're (a) expensive and (b) sometimes
soldered in as a battery array. Soooo . . . we tend to
keep them in service far longer than practical and as
cells age, their capabilities become more questionable . . .
Leaving them on continuous "trickle" charge doesn't
help much either. The critters will grow whiskers inside
due to trickle charge or discharge flow of current.
(2) unless you buy the higher cost, high capacity cells,
alkaline batteries will start out fully charged with more
stored energy.
(3) you can buy generic alkaline cells that perform to
within a few percent of the pink-bunny batteries that
HAVE to cost more because of their multi-million dollar
advertising overhead.
(4) My generic alkalines cost me $0.25 per cell. Also,
I know that my gps-hand helds have internal clocks and
memory require some (albeit small) amount of battery
power even when turned off. Soooo . . . before I launch
on a cross country, new batteries go in both radios.
That's 6 cells at $0.25 each for a grand total of $1.50.
That won't buy me two cups of coffee at the first fuel
stop.
(5) This "if-ya-wanna-depend-on-it, put-in-new-batteries"
approach to hand-held power management will assure that
your radios do what you want when you want. Except for
my rechargeable power tools where I need the high discharge
rates of Ni-Cad or Ni-MH, I've come to depend on alkalines
because their cost/performance ratio is MUCH higher when
you NEED dependability. The ni-cad packs for my hand-helds
are laying on the shelf where I put them years ago . . .,
They're probably all corroded up inside and I don't care.
Just like the battery in your airplane . . .unless you
are prepared to do periodic quantitative capacity checks
on the cells and KNOW what they're capable of, it's better to
look for lower cost, preventative maintenance replacement
alternatives.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net> |
Subject: | switch ratings - AC to DC |
Bob,
I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position
lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading
it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on
switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there
a formula?
My Whelen's are the type that has the white lights molded/integrated
with the position lights. My plan is to fuse 12.5A and run a 16 awg to
the switch. From the switch will exit two 16 awg wires (one pidg
connector), one going out each wingtip (via CPC at wing root) to a
terminal strip. From the (single) wire, I will power both the colored
light and the white (tail) light. Does this sound reasonable? Whelen
specifies 4A for the position light, but they don't mention the
requirement for the white tail light of the integrated unit.
Considering it is of smaller diameter wire, it will be less than four
(4) ampers.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Some welding cable specs |
>
>Cheers,
> This is not a deep research paper, and perhaps bears filling out
>with better-established figures, but I went round to the local supplies shop
>and got #2 and #4 welding cable samples. I cut both to exactly 12"=1 foot
>and popped same onto the digital scale. These are very flexible lines (wish
>I'd had same to rebuild the odd WW II machine instead of wrestling with the
>usual boas) and may be attractive in particular spots. They are covered with
>a healthy rubber covering, but I would guess that a plastic sheath might
>protect against chafing.
Consider that welding cables are routinely used in environments
where dump trucks run over them in gravel driveways . . . the
covering on welding cable much thicker than aircraft wire
any VERY robust. I would have no concerns for mechanical
viability of welding cable as compared to aircraft wire
in an airplane.
>WIRE
>Samples are 600V, range +105/ -50degC, rubber-covered:
>#4 SWG weighs 59.9 grams/foot, diameter is 0.40 inches
>#2 SWG weighs 127.0 grams/foot, diameter is 0.50 inches.
> I have found that the #2 slides easily into 1/2inch underground lawn
>irrigation tubing at 15gm/ft. so should be useful for glassing in conduit
>where required. The #2 also is easily bent into 1inch radius curves, FWIW.
>Ferg
Good data!
I'm surprised at the weights you're getting.
I have some 4AWG welding cable left over from when we
were still doing battery jumpers here at AEC . . . my
sample weighs in a 3 oz (80 grams) per foot. Don't
have any 2AWG welding cable left. I may drop by my
local supplier and get a chunk.
Checking the data table at:
http://www.interstatewire.com/Specpage.asp?sCatalogPage=18c&ID=13
we see that tefzel 2AWG weighs .23#/ft (4 oz or 104 grams/ft)
and tefzel 4AWG scales at .15#/ft (2.5 oz or 69 grams/ft).
This means that compared to my sample of 4AWG welding cable,
your sample is much closer to the weight of aircraft wire . .
in fact, your 4AWG is LIGHTER. Hmmmm . . . I'm wondering
if your 4AWG is REALLY that heavy in copper content . . . it
sounds too light.
In any case, aside from issues of weight, welding cable
is lower temperature rated . . . 105C . . . okay, that
means that you need to keep an eye on it where it might
be exposed to high temperatures (like under the cowl).
If during periodic inspections, the insulation begins
to change appearance or texture, replace the wire. My
general sense is that welding cable will probably survive
very nicely under the cowl . . . except where you find
the need to wrap it around your exhaust stacks.
The BWB (biggie with bureaucrats) are flammability
and products of combustion issues. The covering on
welding cable will put out really noxious smoke common
to rubbers (while Tefzel puts out phosgene gas . . . take
your pick) and welding cable may indeed fail the tests
for supporting combustion in an active fire.
It's really easy to burn a 22 or even a 14AWG wire compared
to the 4 or 2AWG battery and starter feeds. Probability
of this being an issue are very tiny. If it were my
airplane, I'd have no problem with welding cable for
major feeders ESPECIALLY where flexibility in short
pieces (battery jumpers etc) is desirable.
I'm curious about the weights you're getting. It
sounds like there may be some variance of either copper
content or perhaps insulation thickness . . . perhaps
the stuff you have is indeed so thin that abrasion
resistance IS an issue. I'd like to see some samples
of what you have.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------
TEMPORARY WEBSITE ADDRESS:
http://209.134.106.21
--------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John Loram <johnl(at)loram.org> |
Subject: | Re: Reviving dead NiCad batteries |
This is the real bottom line for equipment that MUST work when you need
it... With rechargables you are rarely in a position to know their current
state/capacity...
If I'm just hanging out at the field, I'll slip the re-chargeables into my
handheld, but when I climb into the left seat, the nicads go back into the
charger and I make sure I have a couple of sets of fresh alkalines.
-john-
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls(at)kscable.com]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Reviving dead NiCad batteries
...
Just like the battery in your airplane . . .unless you
are prepared to do periodic quantitative capacity checks
on the cells and KNOW what they're capable of, it's better to
look for lower cost, preventative maintenance replacement
alternatives.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
Subject: | switch ratings - AC to DC |
> I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position
> lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading
> it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on
> switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there
> a formula?
>
I don't think there is one. It has to do with the physical manufacture of
the switch.
The problem is arcing across the contacts which can short the switch
contacts. With AC, there's a zero crossing at which point the current goes
to zero and stops the arcing and allows the switch to open the circuit.
There's no such thing with DC. As the switch contacts separate
(physcially), you can get an arc across those contacts that will end up arc
welding the contacts together shorting the switch on. You need to find a
switch with the appropriate DC ratings.
Unless Bob tells me I'm wrong, of course...
-Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA
Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has
only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according to
Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying
DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your investment
or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated
switch?"
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: switch ratings - AC to DC
Bob,
I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position
lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading
it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on
switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there
a formula?
My Whelen's are the type that has the white lights molded/integrated
with the position lights. My plan is to fuse 12.5A and run a 16 awg to
the switch. From the switch will exit two 16 awg wires (one pidg
connector), one going out each wingtip (via CPC at wing root) to a
terminal strip. From the (single) wire, I will power both the colored
light and the white (tail) light. Does this sound reasonable? Whelen
specifies 4A for the position light, but they don't mention the
requirement for the white tail light of the integrated unit.
Considering it is of smaller diameter wire, it will be less than four
(4) ampers.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
>
>Bob,
> I have your S700 type switches and intend to run my Whelen position
>lights through one switch, but am concerned that I may be overloading
>it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on
>switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there
>a formula?
No but there's an article at:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf
. . . that speaks to this issue.
> My Whelen's are the type that has the white lights molded/integrated
>with the position lights. My plan is to fuse 12.5A and run a 16 awg to
>the switch. From the switch will exit two 16 awg wires (one pidg
>connector), one going out each wingtip (via CPC at wing root) to a
>terminal strip. From the (single) wire, I will power both the colored
>light and the white (tail) light. Does this sound reasonable? Whelen
>specifies 4A for the position light, but they don't mention the
>requirement for the white tail light of the integrated unit.
>Considering it is of smaller diameter wire, it will be less than four
>(4) ampers.
Why 12.5A???? These lamps are about 2A each, 4 lamps comes to 8A
so a 10A fuse is plenty.
The 4A figure quoted by Whelen is apparently for the pair of
bulbs in each fixture.
Check out the article cited above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
>
>I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA
>Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has
>only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according to
>Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying
>DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your investment
>or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated
>switch?"
>
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Cy, that article (or one like it) has been circulating around
for years. I think it first appeared in an issue of the Van's
Air Force about 5 years ago. The author takes some perfectly
good data from the spec sheets for switches and then
mis-interprets it.
This is one of the reasons I became discouraged with writing
for EAA . . . without peer review of articles and with no
expertise on the publishing staff, there's been some pretty
poor advice printed the flagship publication of the EAA. If
one can't look to this organization for the straight skinny,
where ELSE would one look? I decided to make
http://www.aeroelctric.com the place . . . at least for electrical
stuff.
Check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
"M Jones"
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
Well, Bob I guess the egg is on my face. The article was published in Sport
Aviation I believe in 1985. I looked it up when I was think of putting it in
the Experimenter after getting permission from Art to publish it. I guess
I'd better write some sort of correction article.
I hate it when some one blusters thru opinion as fact.
It is even worse if I personally pass something on as fact when it isn't. I
try my darnest to be helpful with correct info. This wasn't one of those
moments.
My apologies.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: switch ratings - AC to DC
>
>I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA
>Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has
>only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according
to
>Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying
>DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your
investment
>or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated
>switch?"
>
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Cy, that article (or one like it) has been circulating around
for years. I think it first appeared in an issue of the Van's
Air Force about 5 years ago. The author takes some perfectly
good data from the spec sheets for switches and then
mis-interprets it.
This is one of the reasons I became discouraged with writing
for EAA . . . without peer review of articles and with no
expertise on the publishing staff, there's been some pretty
poor advice printed the flagship publication of the EAA. If
one can't look to this organization for the straight skinny,
where ELSE would one look? I decided to make
http://www.aeroelctric.com the place . . . at least for electrical
stuff.
Check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
> it. The switch states 15A @ 125 VAC. I read through the chapter on
> switches, but it doesn't give a conversion to direct current. Is there
> a formula?
Usually you can get away with 15A @ 125VAC = 15A @ 12VDC, but
like Bob says, depends on who made 'em.
For a humorous acount of trying the 15A @ 125VAC switches on
120VDC see:
http://www.tcrobots.org/members/akili.htm
Start about half way down, with scootey. Not a robot, but
a real scooter. Then somewhere in the account about May 28th
I think, the fun starts (it was a dark night in the suburbs...).
(I happen to know these people :-).
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Some welding cable specs |
> The BWB (biggie with bureaucrats) are flammability
> and products of combustion issues. The covering on
> welding cable will put out really noxious smoke common
> to rubbers (while Tefzel puts out phosgene gas . . . take
> your pick) and welding cable may indeed fail the tests
> for supporting combustion in an active fire.
Just an interesting observation regarding the "fire resistance" of Tefzel vs
welding type cable insulation. I used Tefzel #4 for starter wiring, and #2
welding cable for a engine ground. I soldered the ends into copper lugs
using a propane torch, and the Tefzel really liked to flame while the
welding cable's insulation simply smoked a little. The Tefzel would
immediately reignite when I put the torch anywhere near it.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
6A N66AP flying 94 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
After I wrote my chagrinned apology I got out my Newark and Grainger
catalogs. Talk about confusing. Some switches are rated as AC only, a few
DC, and several are listed as AC/DC.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: switch ratings - AC to DC
>
>I just republished an article about DC switches in the February 2002 EAA
>Experimenter p 36. Your switch that is rated at 15 amps @ 125 Volts AC has
>only about a rating of about 0.22 amps even at only 14 Volt DC. according
to
>Art Bianconi, the author. You should give serious consideration to buying
>DC rated switches. To quote Art, " Is it worth jeopardizing your
investment
>or your safety by cutting corners with even one cheap or improperly rated
>switch?"
>
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Cy, that article (or one like it) has been circulating around
for years. I think it first appeared in an issue of the Van's
Air Force about 5 years ago. The author takes some perfectly
good data from the spec sheets for switches and then
mis-interprets it.
This is one of the reasons I became discouraged with writing
for EAA . . . without peer review of articles and with no
expertise on the publishing staff, there's been some pretty
poor advice printed the flagship publication of the EAA. If
one can't look to this organization for the straight skinny,
where ELSE would one look? I decided to make
http://www.aeroelctric.com the place . . . at least for electrical
stuff.
Check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Bob,
I have a Gall's Wig-Wag Headlight Flashing System # FS039 which I would
like to use in my RV-6A - with your schematic, if possible. Its wires
are colored differently from the ones in your schematic. They are Brown
and White to go to one headlight circuit (brown to the incoming lead and
white to the light) and yellow and green to the other light (yellow to
the incoming lead and green to the other light). Red is separated and
fused and is obviously a power connection.
There is also a switch on the box.
Can you tell from my description which wires correspond which wire
colors in your schematic (if this unit functions in the same way as the
one you worked with).
Thanks in advance.
Richard Dudley
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)micron.net> |
Subject: | Small RG batteries |
Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG
batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM
magnet alternator VariEze. The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like
it will keep my one electronic ignition and MicroAir com radio going
for far longer than I have fuel. The battery looks like just a small
version
of the batteries produced by Concorde. Anyone have any input?
The reason that I am asking is that I had gotten the impression that other
RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal
it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's?
Thanks,
Here is a link to their page:
http://www.exide.com/products/trans/productdetail/champion_sealed_powersport.html
Matt-
VE N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Piers Herbert" <piers.herbert(at)ntlworld.com> |
Subject: | Re: Diesel electrics (long) |
> Rowland
As I understand it the lightest RG battery that Wilksch has found suitable
for starting is the Hawker Energy SBS-30. This is a bit lighter than a
Concord 25 RG XC (which apparently proved inadequate)
Piers
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | David Mullins <n323xl(at)mediaone.net> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
Matt,
If you have to add acid that sounds like a flooded cell battery
not a RG Battery. I purchased a Hawker Odyssey RG Battery
It came fully charged and did not have to add acid to it. The
local distributor (Batteries Plus) did an unscientific test with
one that was damaged in shipment. It had a hole in the side
about the size of two golf balls. They installed it into a truck
and it lasted there for 8 months until the thing dried out.
Actually, if you open the top of this battery you blow the warranty!
Dave Mullins
Nashua, New Hampshire
Website: http://n323xl.iwarp.com
WebCamera: http://n323xl.iwarp.com/KRCam.html
Matt Prather wrote:
>
> Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG
> batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM
> magnet alternator VariEze. The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like
> it will keep my one electronic ignition and MicroAir com radio going
> for far longer than I have fuel. The battery looks like just a small
> version
> of the batteries produced by Concorde. Anyone have any input?
>
> The reason that I am asking is that I had gotten the impression that other
> RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal
> it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Here is a link to their page:
>
> http://www.exide.com/products/trans/productdetail/champion_sealed_powersport.html
>
> Matt-
> VE N34RD
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: switch ratings - AC to DC |
>
>Well, Bob I guess the egg is on my face. The article was published in Sport
>Aviation I believe in 1985. I looked it up when I was think of putting it in
>the Experimenter after getting permission from Art to publish it. I guess
>I'd better write some sort of correction article.
>
>I hate it when some one blusters thru opinion as fact.
>
>It is even worse if I personally pass something on as fact when it isn't. I
>try my darnest to be helpful with correct info. This wasn't one of those
>moments.
>
>My apologies.
>
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
No apologies are in order to me my friend. I'm not the
least bit offended . . . I am sad however that EAA has been
oblivious to the value and need for peer review of
technical articles. Another good example of a
toe-stubber in Sport Aviation was analyzed in detail at
http://209.134.106.21/articles/rules/review.html
I talked with Jack about this several times on the phone
and in person at OSH . . . I allowed as how with over
100,000 issues of SA going out to the world every month
it was incumbent upon him as editor-in-chief to do
everything he could to insure technical accuracy of
the material. It was important to safeguard Sport
Aviation's status as "keeper of the true light" on
amateur built airplanes.
If any bureaucrat with government wanted to bolster
his own visions of how potentially dangerous
our airplanes are, all he would have to do
is pick up a few selected issues of S.A. and
hammer us with them. It wouldn't matter how much
good information had been published, all it would
take is a half dozen stinkers to make us look REALLY
bad in some senate hearing on aviation legislation.
Jack told me he didn't have the luxury of turning
down many articles . . . he and a few others were kept
busier than a one armed paper hanger in a breeze just
trying to fill the pages of SA every month.
After that statement, I wrote a letter to Tom P
offering to be a technical editor for SA. The offer
at that time was for $12K per year I would see that
there was one first-class technical article for
SA every month. Given the wealth of aviation expertise
here in Spam Can Capitol of the World, I would guarantee
peer review of each piece no matter what the subject.
I also asked for a budget of another $10K per year
to (gasp) pay for articles (those dollars were to pay
others . . . I told him that I would generate at least
4 pieces per year as part of the package deal as
an editor). I explained to Tom that when someone
has customers waving credit cards for high dollar
labor it's really difficult to donate the 8-12 hours
that it takes to produce a class piece.
Tom wrote back politely telling me that EAA was
just to strapped for cash (they were busy bulldozing
all the houses and mom-n-pop businesses on Knapp
Street) and that he just couldn't consider my offer.
He didn't even mention whether or not he thought it
was a good idea.
Anywho, that was about the time I got really discouraged
about beating EAA's drum for them. It was sad
to note that Articles in Kit Planes are consistently
stronger technically that those in Sport Aviation.
When Issue 1, Vol 1 of SA hit the streets, it was
perhaps a half dozen sheets of mimeographed paper
and most of the content was how to build airplanes.
Nowadays, perhaps 8-10% of each magazine has anything
to do with building with the rest devoted to cash-cow
advertising and fluff articles on somebody's homebuilt
or restoration project.
I haven't seen a copy of the Experimenter in years
but the last one I saw looked more like what Uncle
Paul was putting out as Sport Aviation 40 years ago.
I'm not knocking the efforts of those like yourself
who are working hard to keep the true light from
going out . . . it's got to be difficult when
the folks at the top are too busy support what EAA
is supposed to be about - I wonder if they even
remember.
If you'd like to publish any of the pieces you find on
my website, let's talk about them. Most could be
tuned up for print publication and perhaps updated
too . . . and I'll repeat an offer to you that I
made to Jack (and more recently to Scott Spangler),
I'll be glad to review (or find reviewers) for ANY
article he'd care to send me. There are a few
folks on this list that I'm sure would be willing
to help out with electrical stuff. I can find
folks here in Wichita who exercise other disciplines.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>
>Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG
>batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM
>magnet alternator VariEze. The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like
>it will keep my one electronic ignition and MicroAir com radio going
>for far longer than I have fuel. The battery looks like just a small
>version
>of the batteries produced by Concorde. Anyone have any input?
>
>The reason that I am asking is that I had gotten the impression that other
>RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal
>it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's?
Just because it's "sealed" doesn't make it an RG battery . . .
and this is no exception. Now that you have it, I'd run it
until it's capacity drops to 6 a.h. or so but next time
get a REAL RG battery. Do you carry any additional ballast
weight up front in addition to the battery?
If you need the low weight, consider the NP12-12 at
http://www.mywebplace.com/yuasaspec.html If you
carry any ballast and can replace it with USEFUL weight,
go on up to the NP18-12. The later battery is made
by about everybody. Make sure it's a VRLA (vent regulated
lead-acid) or RG (recombinant gas) technology.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Some welding cable specs |
>
>
> > The BWB (biggie with bureaucrats) are flammability
> > and products of combustion issues. The covering on
> > welding cable will put out really noxious smoke common
> > to rubbers (while Tefzel puts out phosgene gas . . . take
> > your pick) and welding cable may indeed fail the tests
> > for supporting combustion in an active fire.
>
>
>Just an interesting observation regarding the "fire resistance" of Tefzel vs
>welding type cable insulation. I used Tefzel #4 for starter wiring, and #2
>welding cable for a engine ground. I soldered the ends into copper lugs
>using a propane torch, and the Tefzel really liked to flame while the
>welding cable's insulation simply smoked a little. The Tefzel would
>immediately reignite when I put the torch anywhere near it.
I've noticed that too . . . maybe ours is not an "approved"
test procedure . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like
Not an answer to your question, but...
I had an 18 Ampere-hour battery in my O360 RV, and it did ok during the
fall, but when temps dropped below about 30, it couldn't hack it. I
switched to a 35 and no problems. BTW, I got these at Batteries Plus.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
6A N66AP flying 94 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
>Bob,
>I have a Gall's Wig-Wag Headlight Flashing System # FS039 which I would
>like to use in my RV-6A - with your schematic, if possible. Its wires
>are colored differently from the ones in your schematic. They are Brown
>and White to go to one headlight circuit (brown to the incoming lead and
>white to the light) and yellow and green to the other light (yellow to
>the incoming lead and green to the other light). Red is separated and
>fused and is obviously a power connection.
>
>There is also a switch on the box.
>
>Can you tell from my description which wires correspond which wire
>colors in your schematic (if this unit functions in the same way as the
>one you worked with).
Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
it work by:
FS033 colors FS039 colors
white brown and yellow
red red
blue green
yellow white
green doesn't exist
black doesn't exist
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Where can I get |
>
>Looking thru chap. 14 of the AeroElectric Connection, Bob talks about
>putting together a switch for multiple thermocouples and then into the
>gauge (like Figure 14-11, View B). I'm looking for a faston terminal
>strip to do that with providing I should use faston connectors on
>thermocouple wire. I'm also looking for a source for the thermocouple
>connectors (ala Figure 14-13 View B).
How many thermocouples do you want to switch? Fast-Ons
are not good thermocouple connectors. You can get the
type illustrated at:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OST
Are all the thermocouples the same type . . . i.e.
driving the same indicator?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gabriel A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
Subject: | "Gnd" Terminal in Slick Magneto |
Bob:
The Slick magnetos, in the O-360 A1A that I purchased from Van's, have a
terminal labeled "gnd".
How is it wired?
I've seen engines where nothing is connected to it. In others the P lead
shield is wired to it. I saw one where the "gnd" terminal was connected
to 'single point ground'.
Thanks, in advance.
Gabe A Ferrer
Cell: 561 758 8894
Voice or Fax: 561 622 0960
Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Kevin & Theresa Horton <khorton(at)cyberus.ca> |
Subject: | Re: Where can I get |
>
>
>
> Fast-Ons
> are not good thermocouple connectors.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob,
I've just installed a Grand Rapids EIS 4000 engine monitor. They
provide Fast-Ons to connect the EGT and CHT thermocouples to the
wires going into the monitor. The wires to the monitor are
theromcouple wire, matching the wire coming from the thermocouples.
Why are Fast-Ons a bad idea? Does a bit of corrosion at the
interface between the male and female Fast-Ons eventually screw up
the accuracy?
What should be used instead of Fast-Ons? I'd like something that is
removeable, so I can simply unplug rather than pulling the probes if
I ever need to pull the engine.
Thanks,
Kevin Horton
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net> |
Subject: | Permanent Magnet Alternator - an alternator not needing |
a battery?
Bob,
Is there such a thing as a permanent magnet alternator and would it not need
a battery to excite the field? If there is such a thing that is suitable
for aircraft, it would solve the problem of needing a battery to run the
engines, wouldn't it? What is the real story here cause I know there has to
be a big downside?
Thanks, Rick Fogerson
RV3 (ready to order fuselage)
Boise, ID
> >Does anyone know anything about the Exide Powersport Sealed RG
> >batteries? I just picked up a 14BS for my non-starter equiped PM
> >magnet alternator VariEze.
> If you need the low weight, consider the NP12-12 at
> http://www.mywebplace.com/yuasaspec.html If you
> carry any ballast and can replace it with USEFUL weight,
> go on up to the NP18-12. The later battery is made
> by about everybody. Make sure it's a VRLA (vent regulated
> lead-acid) or RG (recombinant gas) technology.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)micron.net> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
This begs a couple of other questions for me. I apologize if they have
already
been asked.
How do sealed batteries differ chemically from a normally flooded cell lead
acide battery?
Would it be normal for a sealed flooded acid battery to include glass mat
separators? And how about the note on the web site " Advanced design
shortens
current paths, reduces resistance and delivers higher cranking power --
even in
cold weather." Is this some marketing gimmick to get people to think
they are
getting an RG battery?
Thanks again,
Matt-
VE N34RD
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>other
>>RG batteries come fully charged, but this one you add acid, and then seal
>>it, to never add water again. Is that normal with the RG's?
>>
>
>
> Just because it's "sealed" doesn't make it an RG battery . . .
> and this is no exception. Now that you have it, I'd run it
> until it's capacity drops to 6 a.h. or so but next time
> get a REAL RG battery. Do you carry any additional ballast
> weight up front in addition to the battery?
>
> If you need the low weight, consider the NP12-12 at
> http://www.mywebplace.com/yuasaspec.html If you
> carry any ballast and can replace it with USEFUL weight,
> go on up to the NP18-12. The later battery is made
> by about everybody. Make sure it's a VRLA (vent regulated
> lead-acid) or RG (recombinant gas) technology.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>
>This begs a couple of other questions for me. I apologize if they have
>already
>been asked.
>
>How do sealed batteries differ chemically from a normally flooded cell lead
>acide battery?
check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/rg_bat.html
>Would it be normal for a sealed flooded acid battery to include glass mat
>separators? And how about the note on the web site " Advanced design
>shortens
>current paths, reduces resistance and delivers higher cranking power --
>even in
>cold weather." Is this some marketing gimmick to get people to think
>they are
>getting an RG battery?
Could be . . . short power paths and glass mat separators
would be good things to do for flooded batteries too . . . and
would improve their performance but not do much for their
shortcomings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: PM Alternator - not needing a battery? |
>
>
>Bob,
>Is there such a thing as a permanent magnet alternator and would it not need
>a battery to excite the field? If there is such a thing that is suitable
>for aircraft, it would solve the problem of needing a battery to run the
>engines, wouldn't it? What is the real story here cause I know there has to
>be a big downside?
Sure . . . the B&C SD-8 and 200G alternators are such critters.
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/200gdesc.html
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/SD8desc.html
The regulators that come with them need a battery but it's possible
to build a regulator that doesn't. The alternator on a Rotax is
PM and doesn't require a battery . . . it's hard to control the
output of these things efficiently and they're not terribly efficient
as power generation devices either . . . but you're right, they
do have exceptional reliability and simplicity.
The Rotax engines use the same magnets as the alternator to excite
their CD ignition systems as well. One set of magnets lights the
lights and powers two, independent ignitions as well. Max output
offered to date is 230 watts . . . and the regulator takes a pretty
good beating. I've been considering ideas to get rid of the heat
and improve performance in these systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP |
>
>
> Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
> it work by:
>
> FS033 colors FS039 colors
>
> white brown and yellow
> red red
> blue green
> yellow white
> green doesn't exist
> black doesn't exist
Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible
to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its
switch in the ON position.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: "Gnd" Terminal in Slick Magneto |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>The Slick magnetos, in the O-360 A1A that I purchased from Van's, have a
>terminal labeled "gnd".
>
>How is it wired?
>I've seen engines where nothing is connected to it. In others the P lead
>shield is wired to it.
That's what it's for.
> I saw one where the "gnd" terminal was connected
>to 'single point ground'.
Nein, nein!!!!
There should be a fat, braided jumper between the crankcase
and the single point ground on the firewall. See chapter
5 of the AeroElectric Connection. The ground terminal on
a magneto is for p-lead shields only.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>
>
> >The battery is a 12Ah unit that looks like
>
>Not an answer to your question, but...
>
>I had an 18 Ampere-hour battery in my O360 RV, and it did ok during the
>fall, but when temps dropped below about 30, it couldn't hack it. I
>switched to a 35 and no problems. BTW, I got these at Batteries Plus.
Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller
battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that
are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a
lotta pounds!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "James Foerster" <jfoerst(at)jps.net> |
Subject: | Do-it-yourself audio panel |
Bob,
In this day and age, post 9-11, I feel obliged to monitor 121.5 for
military advisories as I'm not like to see the military heavy iron, and
they can't fly as slow as I do. I expect to have two comms, but as a
VFR flyer, no nav, DME, etc. I would like to have a nice stereo DRE
244e ($410 street price) or perhaps a PS-Engineering 7100List $900)
which has a CD player. Both of these are intercoms only, and to switch
from one comm to another, the commercial solution is $1200 to $2200 just
to add switching. Why can't I just build a rotary switched box to
transfer the mike, headphone, and PTT from one to the other radio? This
should be high level audio, no need for amplification. The plane is
composit, so that inadvertent multipoint ground problems should not
occur (but the panel is one piece of aluminum). Any suggestions?
Thanks, Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP |
Thanks, Bob.
Haven't had a chance to try it yet. I'll let you know my results
presently.
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
> > it work by:
> >
> > FS033 colors FS039 colors
> >
> > white brown and yellow
> > red red
> > blue green
> > yellow white
> > green doesn't exist
> > black doesn't exist
>
> Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible
> to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its
> switch in the ON position.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP |
Thanks, Bob.
Haven't had a chance to try it yet. I'll let you know my results
presently.
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
> > it work by:
> >
> > FS033 colors FS039 colors
> >
> > white brown and yellow
> > red red
> > blue green
> > yellow white
> > green doesn't exist
> > black doesn't exist
>
> Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible
> to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its
> switch in the ON position.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "lonnwood" <lonnwood(at)msn.com> |
I have got to the point in wiring of my high wing tube and fabric plane
that I need to start running wires to other parts of the plane with much
of the behind the panel stuff done.
How do you secure the wires to the tubes with fabric on the outside,
such as running a wire back to the tail light? Should the wires be
supported to where they never touch a tube? It would obviously be
overkill to support one or 2 wires with addel clamps to the interior
cross tubes.
Other areas are running wires up along side the door post, and to
individual overhead interior lights.
Is that spiral plastic wrap an acceptable practice for this purpose or
is there a better way.
Thanks,
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>
> >
> >How do sealed batteries differ chemically from a normally flooded cell lead
> >acide battery?
>
> check out http://209.134.106.21/articles/rg_bat.html
Just scanned through the piece I cited - hadn't looked at
it in some time. I caught several cases where it wasn't
clear whether the author was talking about flooded or
RG batteries - Both are discussed in general terms.
I've put the thing on my list of pieces needing updating.
I suspect my friend Skip Koss at Concord wrote it.
I'll collaborate with him and see if he'd like to
update the version posted on Concord's site too.
In any case, I don't mean to brush off your questions
with a reading assignment . . . especially one that has
loose ends. If you have unresolved questions I'll be
pleased to address them.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP |
Yes!!
It works as advertised using your schematic and wire color conversion.
This is the $19.95 version of Galls Wig-Wag.
Thanks Bob!!
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
> > it work by:
> >
> > FS033 colors FS039 colors
> >
> > white brown and yellow
> > red red
> > blue green
> > yellow white
> > green doesn't exist
> > black doesn't exist
>
> Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible
> to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its
> switch in the ON position.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Running wires |
>
>I have got to the point in wiring of my high wing tube and fabric plane
>that I need to start running wires to other parts of the plane with much
>of the behind the panel stuff done.
>
> How do you secure the wires to the tubes with fabric on the outside,
>such as running a wire back to the tail light? Should the wires be
>supported to where they never touch a tube? It would obviously be
>overkill to support one or 2 wires with addel clamps to the interior
>cross tubes.
>
>Other areas are running wires up along side the door post, and to
>individual overhead interior lights.
>
>Is that spiral plastic wrap an acceptable practice for this purpose or
>is there a better way.
I've seen quite a few techniques that address this
question. Most certified ships I've observed do use
MS21919DG (Adel) clamps at every practical support
point the wire passes.
AC43-13, Paragraph 11-118
http://www.aeroelectric.com/3y-ch11_9.pdf
suggests a target of no more than 1/2" of
droop between support points for a wire and
mandates support at every point for potential
chafing.
I think my personal favorite for supporting
small bundles in along their trek to far-flung
locations on the airplane would be a Nyla-Flow
tubing conduit. This is the milky-white tubing
sold in hardware stores to hook up humidifiers
and icemakers. It's semi-rigid and can span
relatively large distances with minimal support.
It's easy to snake wires through it and affords
excellent protection of wires.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Low cost backup radios . . . |
In the interest of encouraging everyone to have
Plan-B avionics in the flight bag, I've added
the Japan Radio JHP-520 VOR nav/VHF comm
hand held to our website catalog. I've not
been able to find a source for Magellan GPS
310 receivers for prices better than you can
do at Walmart, etc. In fact, here's a source
for the GPS310 for $99:
http://www.valcoelectronics.com/gps/gps310.htm
When I go flying (always in rented aircraft)
I'm comfortable with the notion that I'll get
to where I intend to go whether or not anything
on the panel is working . . . My dual GPS310 receivers
are used for primary navigation and the
JHP-520 in the bag (ALL powered by Alkaline
batteries) say's I'll be able to get somebody's
attention on the radio when I get there.
You can take a peek at the instruction manual
for the JHP-520 at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/jhp520.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP |
Yes!!
It works as advertised using your schematic and wire color conversion.
This is the $19.95 version of Galls Wig-Wag.
Thanks Bob!!
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
> > it work by:
> >
> > FS033 colors FS039 colors
> >
> > white brown and yellow
> > red red
> > blue green
> > yellow white
> > green doesn't exist
> > black doesn't exist
>
> Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible
> to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its
> switch in the ON position.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
Right ON Bob.
I volunteered for FREE to edit and promote alternative engines as SA at
times contained poor advice and occasionally simply incorrect info. As I
have written several articles on the subject and published in 3 mags I at
least expected some response. This was a personal contact with an EAA VP at
Arlington 2001 Fly IN. All I wanted to do was promote SAFE auto engine
conversions.
Never even got a simple thanks but no thanks.
Couple of years ago there was an article published about (among other
things)the wonderful uses of Carbon Tetracloride. This 20+ years AFTER it
was banned from consumer sales.
Paul
EAA55789
TC and FA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: switch ratings - AC to DC
>
>Well, Bob I guess the egg is on my face. The article was published in
Sport
>Aviation I believe in 1985. I looked it up when I was think of putting it
in
>the Experimenter after getting permission from Art to publish it. I guess
>I'd better write some sort of correction article.
>
>I hate it when some one blusters thru opinion as fact.
>
>It is even worse if I personally pass something on as fact when it isn't. I
>try my darnest to be helpful with correct info. This wasn't one of those
>moments.
>
>My apologies.
>
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
No apologies are in order to me my friend. I'm not the
least bit offended . . . I am sad however that EAA has been
oblivious to the value and need for peer review of
technical articles. Another good example of a
toe-stubber in Sport Aviation was analyzed in detail at
http://209.134.106.21/articles/rules/review.html
I talked with Jack about this several times on the phone
and in person at OSH . . . I allowed as how with over
100,000 issues of SA going out to the world every month
it was incumbent upon him as editor-in-chief to do
everything he could to insure technical accuracy of
the material. It was important to safeguard Sport
Aviation's status as "keeper of the true light" on
amateur built airplanes.
If any bureaucrat with government wanted to bolster
his own visions of how potentially dangerous
our airplanes are, all he would have to do
is pick up a few selected issues of S.A. and
hammer us with them. It wouldn't matter how much
good information had been published, all it would
take is a half dozen stinkers to make us look REALLY
bad in some senate hearing on aviation legislation.
Jack told me he didn't have the luxury of turning
down many articles . . . he and a few others were kept
busier than a one armed paper hanger in a breeze just
trying to fill the pages of SA every month.
After that statement, I wrote a letter to Tom P
offering to be a technical editor for SA. The offer
at that time was for $12K per year I would see that
there was one first-class technical article for
SA every month. Given the wealth of aviation expertise
here in Spam Can Capitol of the World, I would guarantee
peer review of each piece no matter what the subject.
I also asked for a budget of another $10K per year
to (gasp) pay for articles (those dollars were to pay
others . . . I told him that I would generate at least
4 pieces per year as part of the package deal as
an editor). I explained to Tom that when someone
has customers waving credit cards for high dollar
labor it's really difficult to donate the 8-12 hours
that it takes to produce a class piece.
Tom wrote back politely telling me that EAA was
just to strapped for cash (they were busy bulldozing
all the houses and mom-n-pop businesses on Knapp
Street) and that he just couldn't consider my offer.
He didn't even mention whether or not he thought it
was a good idea.
Anywho, that was about the time I got really discouraged
about beating EAA's drum for them. It was sad
to note that Articles in Kit Planes are consistently
stronger technically that those in Sport Aviation.
When Issue 1, Vol 1 of SA hit the streets, it was
perhaps a half dozen sheets of mimeographed paper
and most of the content was how to build airplanes.
Nowadays, perhaps 8-10% of each magazine has anything
to do with building with the rest devoted to cash-cow
advertising and fluff articles on somebody's homebuilt
or restoration project.
I haven't seen a copy of the Experimenter in years
but the last one I saw looked more like what Uncle
Paul was putting out as Sport Aviation 40 years ago.
I'm not knocking the efforts of those like yourself
who are working hard to keep the true light from
going out . . . it's got to be difficult when
the folks at the top are too busy support what EAA
is supposed to be about - I wonder if they even
remember.
If you'd like to publish any of the pieces you find on
my website, let's talk about them. Most could be
tuned up for print publication and perhaps updated
too . . . and I'll repeat an offer to you that I
made to Jack (and more recently to Scott Spangler),
I'll be glad to review (or find reviewers) for ANY
article he'd care to send me. There are a few
folks on this list that I'm sure would be willing
to help out with electrical stuff. I can find
folks here in Wichita who exercise other disciplines.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Craig Snively" <craigsn(at)hotmail.com> |
Bob,
My situation is this:
Current situation:
6 cylinder lyc. w/ EGT/CHT on each cylinder going to a rotary switch for
one output lead to a Rocky Mountain Instruments MicroMonitor. Westach
thermocouples
Moving to:
Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/One, it has the ability to monitor 6
thermocouples (the way it is configured from the factory, it can be
changed, but I'm not sure I want to do that).
So what I was planning on doing was to take my 3 hottest cylinders (I've
got lots of data on this), and connect up 3 CHT leads & 3 EGT leads to
the 6 inputs. Then use some type of switch to get the other 3 when I
need to troubleshoot something, such as bad spark plug, or clogged
injector. It is the wiring and the "some type of switch" that I'm asking
about.
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
>
>Looking thru chap. 14 of the AeroElectric Connection, Bob talks about
>putting together a switch for multiple thermocouples and then into the
>gauge (like Figure 14-11, View B). I'm looking for a faston terminal
>strip to do that with providing I should use faston connectors on
>thermocouple wire. I'm also looking for a source for the thermocouple
>connectors (ala Figure 14-13 View B).
How many thermocouples do you want to switch? Fast-Ons
are not good thermocouple connectors. You can get the
type illustrated at:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OST
Are all the thermocouples the same type . . . i.e.
driving the same indicator?
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org> |
Subject: | Bob's All-Electric Airplane Schematic |
Okay, I'm looking at this schematic, trying to understand it. I have a ton of
questions
designed to display my ignorance. Note that it's totally reasonable to tell me
to go
read the book and THEN ask these questions... (Speaking of which, I think I need
to go order a copy...)
First, I'm looking at the Main Alternator. It looks like there are three outputs:
ground,
"B" and "F". What is the difference between B and F?
Next, it looks like power to the starter goes directly from the main alternator
to
the starter (via the selenoid, of course). However, the same power also looks
like
it goes to:
A. "Battery Contactor" selenoid.
B. Main Power Distribution Bus.
C. Essential bus (via a diode to prevent back-talk)
I'm confused, but it looks like the battery gets switched but that the
alternator is always connected.
It also looks like the battery is always connected to the instrument panel,
unswitched.
Finally, the drawing specifies 4AWG from the alternator to the 50A fuse, but
2 AWG in other places. Shouldn't it be 4AWG everywhere? Or do you use
the smaller wire because it's assumed this is a short run?
Next -- what does the B+C Alternator Controller do? Is this a fancy voltage
regulator?
-Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
FYI,
A friend of mine recently wrote a series of technical articles for SA.
They paid him $500 each.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> -->
>
> Right ON Bob.
>
> I volunteered for FREE to edit and promote alternative
> engines as SA at times contained poor advice and occasionally
> simply incorrect info. As I have written several articles on
> the subject and published in 3 mags I at least expected some
> response. This was a personal contact with an EAA VP at
> Arlington 2001 Fly IN. All I wanted to do was promote SAFE
> auto engine conversions.
>
> Never even got a simple thanks but no thanks.
>
> Couple of years ago there was an article published about
> (among other things)the wonderful uses of Carbon
> Tetracloride. This 20+ years AFTER it was banned from consumer sales.
>
> Paul
> EAA55789
> TC and FA
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | toggle switch failure modes? |
From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Bob,
A couple days ago I posted a question about using a DPDT toggle switch for the
ESS bus, using it to replace the diode function you show on your schematics.
I didn't get a direct response but your response to another post using a similar
idea was that there are some good reasons to use the diodes and that using
a single switch results in a single point of failure.
A couple questions: first of all, what other advantages are there to using the
diodes besides their obvious function of keeping the current on the ESS bus from
feeding back into the main bus?
Second, what kind of failure modes does a toggle switch have? I don't know what
it looks like inside....in a DPDT switch, can it break such that neither position
can make contact? Can the contacts in BOTH positions weld together? Etc?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A canopy stuff...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
Subject: | Re: Do-it-yourself audio panel |
At 20:40 25/02/2002, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>I would like to have a nice stereo DRE
>244e ($410 street price) or perhaps a PS-Engineering 7100List $900)
>which has a CD player.
Check out Jim Weir's RST Engineering website... he sells an audio panel kit
for substantially less than $410!
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Running wires |
You can get the same tubing in Teflon form, from McMaster-Carr, in many
sizes (but don't use the thinwall stuff, it kinks up easily when you try
to bend it), if you want the higher resistance to heat and flame.
I bought both (Nylon-11 and Teflon PTFE) and did some flame tests, as
well as dipping in a 500-degree solder tank... The nylon gets soft and
starts to emit some fumes about the same time it actually starts
melting, but does not burn; the teflon just sits there and does
absolutely nothing except get fairly warm and a little bit softer but
nowhere near the point of melting. See:
<http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0081.html> for a comparison of
different kinds of Thermoplastic tubing.
I ended up using (2) 8-ft lengths of 5/8" O.D. heavy-wall tubing as
conduit in my Velocity; it's great for pulling new cable from the
engine to the panel area; I can actually *push* 18-ga cable if the
conduit isn't too full!
I also, once upon a time, compared automotive battery cable to welding
cable and Tefzel (22759-xx) in a 700+ degree solder pot and also with
flame tests; the automotive cable burned immediately, made thick oily
smoke and sustained a flame after the source was removed; the Tefzel
smelled fairly nasty but would not burn right away (and would not
sustain a flame at all); the welding cable gave off kind of a "hot
rubbery smell" which wasn't irritationg at all, and would not burn or
melt, but did swell just a bit.
-John
Velocity N173JR
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I have got to the point in wiring of my high wing tube and fabric plane
>>that I need to start running wires to other parts of the plane with much
>>of the behind the panel stuff done.
>>
>> How do you secure the wires to the tubes with fabric on the outside,
>>such as running a wire back to the tail light? Should the wires be
>>supported to where they never touch a tube? It would obviously be
>>overkill to support one or 2 wires with addel clamps to the interior
>>cross tubes.
>>
>>Other areas are running wires up along side the door post, and to
>>individual overhead interior lights.
>>
>>Is that spiral plastic wrap an acceptable practice for this purpose or
>>is there a better way.
>>
>
> I've seen quite a few techniques that address this
> question. Most certified ships I've observed do use
> MS21919DG (Adel) clamps at every practical support
> point the wire passes.
>
> AC43-13, Paragraph 11-118
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/3y-ch11_9.pdf
> suggests a target of no more than 1/2" of
> droop between support points for a wire and
> mandates support at every point for potential
> chafing.
>
> I think my personal favorite for supporting
> small bundles in along their trek to far-flung
> locations on the airplane would be a Nyla-Flow
> tubing conduit. This is the milky-white tubing
> sold in hardware stores to hook up humidifiers
> and icemakers. It's semi-rigid and can span
> relatively large distances with minimal support.
> It's easy to snake wires through it and affords
> excellent protection of wires.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
Subject: | Re: Diesel electrics (long) |
>the lightest RG battery that Wilksch has found suitable
>for starting is the Hawker Energy SBS-30
I've found a local firm that stocks Hawker Energy "Odyssey engine
start batteries", but the only types they list are:
PC545 178x86x151mm 5.4kg
PC625 170x99x175mm 6.0kg
PC680 185x79x189mm 6.7kg
PC925 169x179x147mm 10.9kg
PC1200 200x169x192mm 16.0kg
PC1700 331x168x195mm 26.6kg
The type numbers appear to correspond to the amperage rating "5 secs
to 7.2V @ 25C".
I wonder which (if any) of those might be equivalent to the SBS-30 type?
regards
Rowland
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Rotax 914 all electric fuel pumps questions |
Bob,
Some months ago I requested your advice about the wiring of our Rotax 914
powered MCR 4S composite project.
Now the engine have been ordered, more informations are at hand :
-The engines definitely runs on two ELECTRICAL fuel pumps, main and
auxilliary, with NO mechanical pump.
-According to the engine manual, the current draw of each of the two
Pierburg pumps is in the 2-3 amps range.
- Rotax advises to run the main pump direct from the alternator, and the
backup pump from the main bus.
We'd like to know your opinion on the following points :
-Is this a good means of achieving the necessary electrical redundancy ?
How
should wee adapt your Z15 diagram ?
-What is your best bet for the battery capacity ? The goal is to have 3 to
4
hour electrical endurance should the PM alternator or regulator fail.
- The wiring will be inspired from your book, but if we kept some breakers
on the panel, what are the most useful ? (alternator feeder, pitch trim
motor...)
- Should we feed the flaps from the essential bus or from the main ?
Any input will be appreciated,
Thanks,
Gilles Thesee
MCR 4S
France
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
>
>FYI,
>
>A friend of mine recently wrote a series of technical articles for SA.
>They paid him $500 each.
Interesting! Scott told me he was trying to get that
budget. I'm pleased that he succeeded. Hmmm . . .
I'll have to look in the work-in-progress basket and
see if I have anything I could throw in the pot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Bob's All-Electric Airplane Schematic |
>
>Okay, I'm looking at this schematic, trying to understand it. I have a
>ton of questions
>designed to display my ignorance. Note that it's totally reasonable to
>tell me to go
>read the book and THEN ask these questions... (Speaking of which, I think
>I need
>to go order a copy...)
>
>First, I'm looking at the Main Alternator. It looks like there are three
>outputs: ground,
>"B" and "F". What is the difference between B and F?
B is "battery" connection - power OUT of alternator, F is the "field"
connection -
a low current control signal TO the alternator.
>Next, it looks like power to the starter goes directly from the main
>alternator to
>the starter (via the selenoid, of course). However, the same power also
>looks like
>it goes to:
>
>A. "Battery Contactor" selenoid.
>B. Main Power Distribution Bus.
>C. Essential bus (via a diode to prevent back-talk)
>
>I'm confused, but it looks like the battery gets switched but that the
>alternator is always connected.
Yup . . . that's the way they do it in virtually every
DC powered vehicle including your car.
>It also looks like the battery is always connected to the instrument panel,
>unswitched.
Anything connected to the always-hot battery bus is indeed
power all the time. We generally want to limit the current
capability of such feeders to 5A or less . . . OR include
some form of mini-contactor to disconnect heavier feeders.
I'm working on a concept for this to support all-electric
designs that must necessarily load the e-bus to more than
5A.
>Finally, the drawing specifies 4AWG from the alternator to the 50A fuse, but
>2 AWG in other places. Shouldn't it be 4AWG everywhere? Or do you use
>the smaller wire because it's assumed this is a short run?
Depends on the airplane. If the battery is remote from the
engine, use 2AWG for lower voltage drop and improved cranking
performance. If the battery, engine and panel are all on the
same end of the airplane, 4AWG suffices throughout.
>Next -- what does the B+C Alternator Controller do? Is this a fancy voltage
>regulator?
It's a controller . . . it contains a regulator, low voltage
warning and crowbar ov protection in a single package. It's not
a $225 regulator rather a three $75 system components combined
into a single package.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
Subject: | Instrument touch up |
Pardon the possibly off topic post, but it seems there are many "panel
wise" folk who lurk here - Does anyone know of a good way to touch up the
black paint on an older instument, like the 3 1/8 inch black aluminum
flight instruments? I just tried it on a part behind the face of one, and
it looks pretty bad. I just want to dress up the face ring and the knobs a
bit. Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
>
>
>Right ON Bob.
>
>I volunteered for FREE to edit and promote alternative engines as SA at
>times contained poor advice and occasionally simply incorrect info. As I
>have written several articles on the subject and published in 3 mags I at
>least expected some response. This was a personal contact with an EAA VP at
>Arlington 2001 Fly IN. All I wanted to do was promote SAFE auto engine
>conversions.
>
>Never even got a simple thanks but no thanks.
>
>Couple of years ago there was an article published about (among other
>things)the wonderful uses of Carbon Tetracloride. This 20+ years AFTER it
>was banned from consumer sales.
Understand. Some folks take great umbrage at any
suggestion that EAA has lost sight of the mission
but I'm hard pressed to find evidence to the
contrary. OSH will continue to be THE place where
everyone gathers every year to meet and see what's
going on but keepers of the light may no longer
live there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag - FOLLOW-UP |
Follow-up, follow-up
Bob,
In going through all the switch combinations, I discovered one anomaly
that I'd rather avoid. It is an unlikely combination but still possible.
Here is the logic table:
Switches Lights
Taxi Landing Taxi Landing
Down Down Off Off
Down Mid Wig Wag
Down UP Off On
Mid Down Off Off
Mid Mid Wig Wag
Mid Up Off On
Up Down On Off
Up Mid On off - relay rapid chatter
Up Up On On
It is the rapid chatter (much faster than wig-wag rate) of relay that
concerns me. The switch positions are not normal but are possible.
Knowing the circuitry of the controller, is there some alternative
wiring I might try?
Thanks in advance.
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Downloaded their wiring diagram and I think you can make
> > it work by:
> >
> > FS033 colors FS039 colors
> >
> > white brown and yellow
> > red red
> > blue green
> > yellow white
> > green doesn't exist
> > black doesn't exist
>
> Further, you don't need to mount the FS039 accessible
> to the pilot. Mount it out of the way and leave its
> switch in the ON position.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
> Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller
> battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that
> are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a
> lotta pounds!
The 18 a.h. battery weighed 13.8 lbs., the 35 a.h. double that. The weight
gain wasn't fun, but neither was the low cranking speed with the smaller
one. Even with a well preheated engine, the cold battery temp seemed to
really kill off the cranking amps. It is possible that the battery simply
croaked, although it wasn't more than about 10 months old, with only 3
months of actual use. However, I've lived in MN long enough to not even
think about fighting wimpy batteries.
They were both the Chinese made standard Batteries Plus brand, VRLA or
something like that type. The 35 a.h. battery fits Van's battery box
perfectly. If I dig up the part nos., I'll post them.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
6A N66AP flying 94 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>
>
> > Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller
> > battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that
> > are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a
> > lotta pounds!
>
>The 18 a.h. battery weighed 13.8 lbs., the 35 a.h. double that. The weight
>gain wasn't fun, but neither was the low cranking speed with the smaller
>one. Even with a well preheated engine, the cold battery temp seemed to
>really kill off the cranking amps. It is possible that the battery simply
>croaked, although it wasn't more than about 10 months old, with only 3
>months of actual use. However, I've lived in MN long enough to not even
>think about fighting wimpy batteries.
>
>They were both the Chinese made standard Batteries Plus brand, VRLA or
>something like that type. The 35 a.h. battery fits Van's battery box
>perfectly. If I dig up the part nos., I'll post them.
If you'd like to try a premium 18 a.h. battery next time,
talk to Bill at B&C (316.283.8000). He handles the Hawker
products in that size that might do the job with less weight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
Subject: | Small RG batteries |
Bob,
Panasonic makes both a 17Ah and 20Ah RG battery in the same standard case
size. Is there any drawback (other than an extra 0.22 lbs.) in using the
20Ah? Durability perhaps? I plan to put a new one in at every annual
(they're pretty cheap and I can use the old one in non-flying equipment).
Here are spec sheets:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/lc-rd1217p.pdf
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/lc-x1220p.pdf
According to this chart:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/chem/seal/index.html
the 17Ah is designed for main and standby power and the 20Ah is just
designed for standby power.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (reserved)
fitting engine baffles
http://www.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
-----Original Message-----
If you'd like to try a premium 18 a.h. battery next time,
talk to Bill at B&C (316.283.8000). He handles the Hawker
products in that size that might do the job with less weight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Instrument touch up |
In a message dated 2/25/2002 3:58:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gary(at)liming.org writes:
<< Does anyone know of a good way to touch up the
black paint on an older instument, like the 3 1/8 inch black aluminum
flight instruments? I just tried it on a part behind the face of one, and
it looks pretty bad. I just want to dress up the face ring and the knobs a
bit. Thanks,
Gary Liming >>
I have used Krylon ultra flat black. I spray it in a container (small cup)
to get a puddle and then use a camel hair brush dipped in the paint to do the
touch up.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Bill Irvine <wgirvine(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Alternator windings |
Bob, (or anyone else)
when you get some time, could you explain the
functional difference between Delta-wound and
Wye-wound alternators? I've read articles that claim
the reason car alternators can't be used in aircraft
is because they are Wye's, and airplanes need Delta's
(or maybe the other way 'round.) Sounds like baloney
to me. I'm always suspicious when someone states a
"fact," then doesn't support it with data or an
explanation.
The only info I've uncovered was a short note in an
electrical handbook that stated a Wye-wound alternator
could be wired in such a way as to produce two
voltages at the same time.
BTW, yesterday I had a long talk with my local FSDO
airworthiness inspector about a simple and safe
modification I want to make to a customer's Mooney...
sigh. As they say, "Arguing with an inspector is like
wrestling with a pig in the mud; after awhile you
realize they both enjoy it."
My next airplane will be a homebuilt.
Bill Irvine
Lancaster, CA
C-310
http://sports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
I'm building a F1 Rocket and will be installing a IO-540-C4B5 with 10:1
compression, Lightspeed dual ignition, 60 amp. and 8 amp. B&C alternators
and a B&C starter. Will the 18 a.h. battery have a enough umph to start it
and be reliable for IFR flight?
Scot
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Do you recall the brand and part number of the smaller
> > > battery? There ARE 17-18 a.h. batteries out there that
> > > are just fine . . . Geesh . . . a jump to 35 a.h. is a
> > > lotta pounds!
> >
> >The 18 a.h. battery weighed 13.8 lbs., the 35 a.h. double that. The weight
> >gain wasn't fun, but neither was the low cranking speed with the smaller
> >one. Even with a well preheated engine, the cold battery temp seemed to
> >really kill off the cranking amps. It is possible that the battery simply
> >croaked, although it wasn't more than about 10 months old, with only 3
> >months of actual use. However, I've lived in MN long enough to not even
> >think about fighting wimpy batteries.
> >
> >They were both the Chinese made standard Batteries Plus brand, VRLA or
> >something like that type. The 35 a.h. battery fits Van's battery box
> >perfectly. If I dig up the part nos., I'll post them.
>
>
> If you'd like to try a premium 18 a.h. battery next time,
> talk to Bill at B&C (316.283.8000). He handles the Hawker
> products in that size that might do the job with less weight.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Instrument touch up |
Gary Liming wrote:
>
>
>
> Pardon the possibly off topic post, but it seems there are many "panel
> wise" folk who lurk here - Does anyone know of a good way to touch up the
> black paint on an older instument, like the 3 1/8 inch black aluminum
> flight instruments?
**** Airbrush. An external-mix one will work if you mask. I'm told
that with an internal-mix one, you won't even need to mask - total
elimination of overspray is the result of the "internal" mix feature.
Personally, I have an external-mix Badger 350 - and I mask.
Knobs are a special case. No paint will survive. I think knobs are
typically black anodized - that's a sort of electroplating, where the color
actually becomes part of the aluminum. It might be possible to have knobs
re-anodized at a plating house, but you might not like the price.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: PM Alternator - not needing a battery? |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >Bob,
> >Is there such a thing as a permanent magnet alternator and would it not need
> >a battery to excite the field? If there is such a thing that is suitable
> >for aircraft, it would solve the problem of needing a battery to run the
> >engines, wouldn't it? What is the real story here cause I know there has to
> >be a big downside?
>
> Sure . . . the B&C SD-8 and 200G alternators are such critters.
>
> http://www.bandcspecialty.com/200gdesc.html
> http://www.bandcspecialty.com/SD8desc.html
>
>
> The regulators that come with them need a battery but it's possible
> to build a regulator that doesn't. The alternator on a Rotax is
> PM and doesn't require a battery . . . it's hard to control the
> output of these things efficiently and they're not terribly efficient
> as power generation devices either . . . but you're right, they
> do have exceptional reliability and simplicity.
>
*** I've had a couple of motorcycles that used the BHZD ( Big Honkin Zener
Diode ) technique to "control" such alternators. Basically, the BHZD is
chosen so that its response knee corresponds with the voltage needed to
charge the battery.
Of course, this arrangement leads to the alternator constantly putting
out its full rated current. This works well for a vehicle ( such
as a large-bore motorcycle ) that is
a. Vastly overpowered for its size and weight
and
b. Not expected to last more than 20-30 thousand miles.
So for aviation use, it might seem preferable to use some sort of series
regulation, rather than the BHZD.
But what about the BHZD as an emergency backup? NO second battery, just
a big diode? With the big diode and a second generator, you would have
pretty good maintenance-free redundancy. No, you wouldn't be able to
start the plane with it, but at least at that point, you're on the
ground....
An interesting aside: a few years ago, I bought a neat little AC generator
(to use at the airport ), that had a two-stroke motor driving a PM
alternator. The "regulator" was a microprocessor-controlled gizmo that
drove the engine throttle! And the output of the whole thing went to a
850W AC inverter. So you could get 12V at LOTS of amps out of it, and the
whole thing only weighed 25 pounds. Unfortunately, it expired from
"exploding rotor" syndrome....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: PM Alternator - not needing a battery? |
>*** I've had a couple of motorcycles that used the BHZD ( Big Honkin Zener
>Diode ) technique to "control" such alternators. Basically, the BHZD is
>chosen so that its response knee corresponds with the voltage needed to
>charge the battery.
>
> Of course, this arrangement leads to the alternator constantly putting
>out its full rated current. This works well for a vehicle ( such
>as a large-bore motorcycle ) that is
>
> a. Vastly overpowered for its size and weight
>
> and
>
> b. Not expected to last more than 20-30 thousand miles.
>
> So for aviation use, it might seem preferable to use some sort of series
>regulation, rather than the BHZD.
What you're referring to is a form of shunt regulation. By
placing and active component (zener or other combination
of electronics) right across the output of the alternator
such that it prevents the bus from rising above the desired
setpoint . . . i.e. about 14 volts. As you've noted, when
system loads on the alternator are LEAST (battery charged,
most goodies OFF) the shunt regulator has to accept all
of the alternator's available output. The alternator basically
runs full bore all the time and you either use the output
to do useful things or you turn it into heat.
All modern regulators for PM alternators use silicon
controlled rectifiers in two of the four slots of a
bridge rectifier. These become series switches that are
turned on earlier in the AC phase waveform to increase
output. In this regard, the system works more like a
wound-field alternator . . . when less output is needed,
the SCR's are turned on later . . . current draw from
the alternator goes down and wasted energy is minimized.
None the less, the bridge rectifier for the alternator
must carry full output current of the power generation
system. Diodes full on have about .7 volt drop, SCR's are
higher . . . about 1.2. Under worst case conditions
the series rectifier/regulator drops about 2 volts
at full output current. For an 18A Rotax alternator
this dumps about 35 watts of heat . . . VERY toasty
as most electronic devices go . . .
> But what about the BHZD as an emergency backup? NO second battery, just
>a big diode? With the big diode and a second generator, you would have
>pretty good maintenance-free redundancy. No, you wouldn't be able to
>start the plane with it, but at least at that point, you're on the
>ground....
You still need the rectifier . . . followed by the
BHZD . . . and it runs very hot all the time irrespective
of loads. The series rectifier/regulator used with the
B&C SD-8 and 200G has a very low parts count and because
the alternator is only rated at 8A, it doesn't get
so hot either. I think I'd stay with the series connected
rectifier/regulator.
> An interesting aside: a few years ago, I bought a neat little AC
> generator
>(to use at the airport ), that had a two-stroke motor driving a PM
>alternator. The "regulator" was a microprocessor-controlled gizmo that
>drove the engine throttle! And the output of the whole thing went to a
>850W AC inverter. So you could get 12V at LOTS of amps out of it, and the
>whole thing only weighed 25 pounds. Unfortunately, it expired from
>"exploding rotor" syndrome....
Bill and I built something like that for a military
robotic project about 15 years ago. We worked with a
company back east to make a chain-saw engine run on
diesel fuel. I did a microprocessor based controller
that operated two glo plugs, a contactor and a stepper
motor to start and run the engine. A 48 volt PM motor
was used to start the engine and after it warmed up,
I could open the throttle and control fuel flow so as
to get the 56 volts out of the motor running as a PM
generator to charge 4 batteries in series. I think
we were able to produce 30A continuously for a
system power of about 1500 watts.
When the system went to field trials, the program
flopped but feedback we got from the end-users
was, "The thing wouldn't run the mission worth
a damn but it always started." I guess the part
that Bill and I provided was the only piece that
performed as expected. A fun project.
Bob . . .
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------
TEMPORARY WEBSITE ADDRESS:
http://209.134.106.21
--------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard D. Fogerson" <rickf(at)velocitus.net> |
Subject: | Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements |
Bob,
I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do
you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit?
Thanks. Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings almost done, Boise, ID
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Do-it-yourself audio panel |
From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Both of these are intercoms only, and to switch
from one comm to another, the commercial solution is $1200 to $2200 just
to add switching.
Jim,
Check out the PS PMA4000 it is an audio selector panel and intercom.
Small 2.25 round or rectangle. Cost, not cheap, but both audio panel and
intercom for about $650.
Don Boardman
& Partner
Randy Bowers
Super Rebel 3500 #130 M-14PF Aerocet 3400 Amphibs Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
Subject: | Re: Do-it-yourself audio panel |
Look at Bob's Aeroelectric site (http://209.134.106.21/articles.html) for a
homebrew audio panel. You could adapt it to suit your particular
installation.
Stan Blanton
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
Subject: | Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements |
At 12:56 27/02/2002, you wrote:
>
>I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do
>you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit?
Saw it here in New Zealand. Asking price was NZ$2800, which should
translate to about US$1200, give or take a couple of hundred.
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net> |
Subject: | Fig. Z-14 Dual Batt, Dual Alt Setup |
Hi Bob,
Question for you...In Ch. 17 you talk about the S700-2-50 switch being
used for the starter/crossfeed switch in Fig Z-14, ie a (on)-on-on switch.
The fig. actually shows a S700-2-5 switch (on)-off-on. The S700-2-5 makes
more sense to me. Which is correct? Also, would you clarify how the aux dc
pwr master switch is designed to work. I presume it would have three
positions; from the bottom, off, aux batt and aux batt/alt. The switch
would then be turned on to aux batt/alt during flight thus charging the aux
battery from the primary alt and hooking up the aux alternator to the aux
bus (which would have no load on it since the crossfeed switch would be open
at this point. If you then had a primary alt failure, all you would have to
do would be to close the crossfeed switch and continue on, ensuring the load
was not too much for the aux alt (however any extra load should be picked up
by the 2 batteries for the remainder of the flight).
Last question: Fig. Z-14, why does the "feed line" for the main bus go from
the battery contactor VIA the crossfeed contactor and then to the main bus?
Why not directly from the battery contactor to the main bus? Wouldn't his
eliminate a point of failure? If the line on your Fig. broke (from the
crossfeed contactor to the main bus) you would have no way of getting ANY
power to the main bus given a dual alternator failure! Wouldn't separate
feedlines from the 2 contactors improve this? There are probably other
considerations I'm not thinking about...so please enlighten me!
PS This system seems great for not much added expense over the "all-electric
on a budget" setup...Are there potential downfalls I'm not seeing? Two
smaller batteries would actually fit better in my plane than 1 bigger
battery so that's what first got me thinking about it!
Thanks,
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Joe Larson" <jpl(at)showpage.org> |
Subject: | Aeroelectric connection vs. CD Rom |
Can someone describe the difference between the Aeroelectric connection
and the CD ROM? Is there a .pdf of the book on the CD, or is the CD
supplemental information?
Thanks.
-Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net> |
Hi Bob,
Another question for you...on fig. Z-14 on the main power bus, you show
mostly fuses and then there's a 5A CB for the ALT FIELD. Why the CB instead
of a fuse? Sounds like it makes sense, but I'm curious to hear the real
rationale! Also you have a CB for the hyd pump...This seems to make sense
too, since there isn't actually an on-off switch for the pump and it would
be nice to have "override" control. Is this the rationale for the hyd pump
CB? Are there any other systems that you would think would be nice to have
this control over, ie use a CB over a fuse even tough you are going
primarily with fuses?
Also how exactly do you wire the CB off the fuse block? Your diagram only
shows the CB connected to the fuse block, ie no connecting wire from the
fuse block to the CB???
Thanks again for the comments!
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | RE:Black touch up |
I agree with Cliff.
The best paint is Krylon ultra flat black. Part no. 1602. You can remove it
with acetone on a Q-tip. Be careful with acetone near plastic parts.
For aluminum knobs, Birchwood Casey makes a metal touch up called "Aluminum
Black". It is available in gun shops for touching up aluminum parts on guns
that are "blued". It says that it contains selenium dioxide.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: toggle switch failure modes? |
>
>Bob,
>
>A couple days ago I posted a question about using a DPDT toggle switch for
>the ESS bus, using it to replace the diode function you show on your
>schematics. I didn't get a direct response but your response to another
>post using a similar idea was that there are some good reasons to use the
>diodes and that using a single switch results in a single point of failure.
>A couple questions: first of all, what other advantages are there to
>using the diodes besides their obvious function of keeping the current on
>the ESS bus from feeding back into the main bus?
No moving parts. Never seen one fail in service in an
airplane.
>Second, what kind of failure modes does a toggle switch have? I don't
>know what it looks like inside....in a DPDT switch, can it break such that
>neither position can make contact? Can the contacts in BOTH positions
>weld together? Etc?
Let's back up a bit. What don't you like about what you
see in the wiring diagrams? Have you read and understand
the failure tolerant design philosophy described in chapter
17 of the AeroElectric Connection? Where do you perceive
that the diagrams published miss the mark?
I'm not trying to avoid your questions I'm curious as
to how the published architectures fall short.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements |
>
>
>Bob,
>I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do
>you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit?
>Thanks. Rick Fogerson, RV3 wings almost done, Boise, ID
I have some units on back order. I'm told it's going to
be another month . . . still bogged down in non-value-
added-paperwork. As soon as I have my hands on some,
I'll announce it on the list and on my website. I have
orders in hand for 5 or 6 sets of equipment. I'll be
offering a kit of transponder, prewired harness and
ACK encoder for a package price.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements |
>
>
>At 12:56 27/02/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in the US for sale. Do
> >you have a price for it and what are the amps for each unit?
Saw it here in New Zealand. Asking price was NZ$2800, which should
translate to about US$1200, give or take a couple of hundred.
It's been shipping to everywhere EXCEPT the US
for months. Given all the new and overpowering
duties the FAA has for aviation safety, we should
expect and perhaps overlook the fact that it can
still take months to get one person's signature
on a piece of paper. After all, we wouldn't
want anyone to believe it was an EASY task, would we?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Small RG batteries |
>
>
>I'm building a F1 Rocket and will be installing a IO-540-C4B5 with 10:1
>compression, Lightspeed dual ignition, 60 amp. and 8 amp. B&C alternators
>and a B&C starter. Will the 18 a.h. battery have a enough umph to start it
>and be reliable for IFR flight?
I've seen 12 a.h. batteries crank a high-compression
aerobatic competition engine 5 times in a row. Capacity
isn't the factor for hard limits. Given that you are
planning on dual engine driven power sources, I'd also
plan a battery tray space large enough for a 24 a.h.
battery but try some smaller ones first.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
Subject: | Re: Microair radio & xpdr amp requirements |
Somebody at Becker told me they got approval for their
ATC-4401 just last week. As it was the case for the
Microair unit, approval for the Becker unit was
delayed many months. Becker mentioned they're going
to ship transponders within 3 weeks... of course, I
will decide if I believe that in 4 weeks :-)
Perhaps something happened at the FAA so they have
time to put stamps on documents...?
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
> Nuckolls, III"
>
> Dorothy
> >
> >
> >At 12:56 27/02/2002, you wrote:
> D. Fogerson"
> > >
> > >I've heard the Microair xpdr is now available in
> the US for sale. Do
> > >you have a price for it and what are the amps for
> each unit?
>
> Saw it here in New Zealand. Asking price was
> NZ$2800, which should
> translate to about US$1200, give or take a couple of
> hundred.
>
>
> It's been shipping to everywhere EXCEPT the US
> for months. Given all the new and overpowering
> duties the FAA has for aviation safety, we should
> expect and perhaps overlook the fact that it can
> still take months to get one person's signature
> on a piece of paper. After all, we wouldn't
> want anyone to believe it was an EASY task, would
> we?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://greetings.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Aeroelectric connection vs. CD Rom |
>
>Can someone describe the difference between the Aeroelectric connection
>and the CD ROM? Is there a .pdf of the book on the CD, or is the CD
>supplemental information?
The CD is a mirror of the wbsite . . . if you have a slow
internet connnection and then it's probably a good deal to
get the ROM so you don't have to download all the articles.
Further the CD Rom has a copy of AC43-13b and ammendments on
it plus other data like fars. It includes a working copy
of a CAD program that will open, edit and print all of our
downloadable wirebook drawings.
The CD will have updates to the 'Connection but not
a complete book.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls(at)kscable.com> |
Subject: | Re: Alternator windings |
>
>Bob, (or anyone else)
>when you get some time, could you explain the
>functional difference between Delta-wound and
>Wye-wound alternators? I've read articles that claim
>the reason car alternators can't be used in aircraft
>is because they are Wye's, and airplanes need Delta's
>(or maybe the other way 'round.) Sounds like baloney
>to me. I'm always suspicious when someone states a
>"fact," then doesn't support it with data or an
>explanation.
>
>The only info I've uncovered was a short note in an
>electrical handbook that stated a Wye-wound alternator
>could be wired in such a way as to produce two
>voltages at the same time.
There are some tradeoffs for choosing one
over the other and I'm not accurately conversant
in all. In a Delta configuration, only one
winding can be in conduction at any one time.
Wye connection has two windings delivering power
at any given time so each phase can be wound
with fewer turns of heavier wire - and ease of
manufacturing issue. Also, some alternator designs
can take advantage of significant third harmonic
wave form output at the center tap of the Wye
connection . . . adding two more diodes to the
rectifier array will increase output by as much
as 10%.
February 14, 2002 - February 27, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ap