AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ay
June 09, 2002 - June 27, 2002
hardware and architecture of certified systems . . .
but you're truly working in a whole new world
with the B&C parts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring supports in the fuselage |
Panduit makes some right-angle wire tie anchors for bulkheads and lightening
holes. Check out their part numbers RAMH-S6-D and LHMS-S5-D. The anchor is
made of Nylon and can be screwed or riveted to the airframe, a much more
permanent installation than a self-adhesive anchor.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie and Tupper England" <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring supports in the fuselage
>
> Gary Liming wrote:
> >
> >
> > I need to decide how to run my wires in the rear fuselage, and would
like
> > some help.
> >
> > I am leaning on using some black ribbed plastic conduit that is light
and
> > split down the side. In which to run light power and rg400. I plan to
run
> > the conduit along the bottom of the fuse, and it must hop over some "L"
> > stiffeners about 1 inch high.
> >
> > To support the conduit along the bottom, I was going to use a "P" type
> > clamp. Since the wires are already encased in the plastic conduit, do I
> > really need to use the Adel type metal clamps with the rubber casing or
can
> > I just use nylon "P" clamps? The nylon ones are lighter and cheaper.
> >
> > To hop over the "L's", one builder told me they use a 3/8 inch piece of
> > nylon gas line as a standoff, in which a nylon tie wrap is inserted,
> > wrapped around the conduit, inserted back into the standoff, and into a
> > hole in the "L" and then into the tie wrap clasp. This sounds good to
me,
> > but does anyone have a better method?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gary Liming
> >
> Using plastic tubing as a standoff works well, but be aware
> that nylon tie wraps can saw through 4130 steel if they
> move. Some sort of protection for the aluminum L stiffeners
> might be in order.
>
> Charlie
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair Transponders article |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Microair Transponders article
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >Have you read about all the features of the Microair Transponders? It's
> >truly amazing.
> >Nice article in Sport Aviation. Answers lots of questions.
> >R
>
> Which issue?
>
> Bob . . .
Sorry, the June issue about the batterys.
R
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick DeCiero <rsdec1(at)star.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fast On Mating & Unmating |
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fast On Mating & Unmating
Gabe,
I thought I was the only one with that problem. Fast-on's are almost impossible
to
dissassemble in a controlled manner by hand. You need vice grip fingers to unmate
them and if
and when it comes off you will be in some contorted position under the dash and
bash your
hands and or break adjacent wires. You can also end up bending the tab and breaking
it off.
Baker has the right idea as this is about the only controllable way to disconnect
them
however, many times the access to the bladed connection will be inaccessable with
a
screwdrive without removing the entire device. I have fitted several fast-on blades
with an
adaptor that adapts fast-on to a 6-32 screw. It does this at 90 degrees to the
blade which is
helpful in my case. The Adaptors are available from Graingers. Grainger part no.
6X578 15
bucks for 100 pcs. You can solder the fast-on blade to the adaptor for a more permanant
connection.
Rick D.
Good luck, you'll need it
AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer"
6/8/2002
Hello Gabe, I Too have had the problem of separation fast on's and their tab.
What has worked for me is to use a large flat blade screwdriver. Insert the
tip of the screwdriver blade between portions of the tab / screw and the fast
on and rotate the screwdriver to separate the two with a wedging action.
If you have fully insulated tabs and fast on's in mid wire then you have to
grip the internal insulator with a pair of pliers and then insert the
screwdrive blade tip between the side of the pliers and the end of the outer
insulator and twist to separate the two.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Flexible Battery cable |
Hi Bob,
I noticed that you offer flexible battery cables made to length in your
catalogue. I have two questions. Do you sell this cable by the foot,
rather than pre-terminated ?. My second question is what is the cable size
equivalent to? I am looking for around 4 AWG.
Thanks, Paul
Eurpoa builder (363) http://pma.obtero.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Steve is on track |
In a message dated 06/09/2002 2:54:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<.....skip.....(Since I've made a mess of track and heading, I'm moving on
to up and down.) SteveD>
6/9/2002
Hello Steve, It is obvious that your gracious sense of humor is firmly
intact. I look forward to your postings.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Heading confusion |
In a message dated 06/09/2002 2:54:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
In a message dated 6/8/02 06:06:18 AM, VE3LVO(at)rac.ca writes:
"Whoever thinks GPS and Heading are interconnected is not ready for solo.
Heading is which way the aircraft points, and GPS doesn't know that."
< Aucountry responds: Call it whatever you want. Maybe the Global
Positioning System itself doesn't know which way your airplane is going, but
the box in your airplane that is using all the information can figure it
out. Heading: the direction your plane is facing. Really, who cares?
Drift, crosswind correction? likewise. who cares.>
6/9/2002
Hello Aucountry, I care -- I care a great deal. Please let me explain why. To
me the issue in this arena is not navigation, it's not technology, it's not
avionics, it's not wind triangles, it's not just semantics, and it's not old
ways vesus new ways. Instead it's
communication and the vital role that the common acceptance of word meaning
plays in communication.
As I look back over some 50 years plus in aviation I recall that many people
I have known have been killed / hurt and many airplanes have been destroyed /
damaged because of ineffective communication. So when I see or hear of
actions that can make communication difficult or impossible I feel an
obligation to speak up.
OK, I won't dispute that, but I say again that the issue here is not old
versus new.
If anyone is just flying from point A to point B I agree. But as soon as the
pilot doing that flying starts to write or talk (communicate) to other pilots
or technicians about the elements involved in that process then everyone
involved needs to have a commonly accepted meaning of the words that they are
using or confusion will result.
Great, I like it. First off let's agree that the complete term is "GPS
heading" not just "heading" alone because the meaning of "heading" is already
established and in use and we don't want to use the same term to mean two
different things.
Second, lets define "GPS heading" as "the present direction of aircraft
track based on GPS calculations." I welcome any words of modification or
acceptance of that definition.
Wrong. They asked for information and they were given information. The "do I
need a VOR" guy came to the conclusion, based on the information that he
received, that he should include a VHF Nav capability in his airplane because
he learned that VORs are going to be around a long, long time, much longer
than he had anticipated. The "do I need a directional gyro guy" learned that
FAR 91.205 (d) (9) said he needed a "Gyroscopic direction indicator
(directional gyro or equivalent)". There was not a single pejorative or
chastising word in any of the postings that I read. I say again, the issue is
not old versus new.
Agreed. And let's all just accept that we can't take a word or term
("heading") that has meant one commonly accepted thing for many years and
start using it to mean something else without causing needless confusion.
You bet they do, and as they change we need the most precise communication
that we can possibly have so that people can write and talk about those
changes without causing confusion.
I'll drink to that (with the requisite time to recover before flying of
course) as long as we use a commonly accepted meaning for the term "GPS
heading" that is different than the commonly accepted and existing meaning
for the term "heading".
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | John Slade - your questions |
> John, why not join the AeroElecric List to carry on this
> conversation?
I'm here.
> The (one page) instructions for my Aeroflash strobes make no mention of
> shielded wire.
>
> Hmmm . . . did the strobes come with an installation kit?
> Does the schematic show shielded wire? (See chapter 1 in
> the book).
No, and no. I'm rereading Chapter 1 now.
The Aeroflash lights have 6 wires coming out of them. 3 20awg and 3 18awg.
Should I just extend these wires to the power supply, switchs and grond per
the schematic?
The power supply max draw is 5.3 amps (it says).
> > Get the running loads for each item in amps. Pick the
> > next largest fuse to carry those amps and pick a wire rated
> > for those amps from the wire table in the book.
>
> OK. But I have a question here. Say I'm wiring the position lights, which
> each take 5 amps. Should I run 16AWG back to a T, then use 20AWG to each
> light?
>
> Astute question. This is the one case where one has to account
> for the TOTAL load of multiple small loads. Each lamp runs at
> about 2A. The total is 6A. This means that the breaker/fuse
> should be about 7A. If you have a 7A protection, then the ENTIRE
> system should be wired for 7A loads irrespective of the fact
> that each branch is loaded to only 2A. Bring 20AWG wires all
> the way from each lamp to the back of your nav lights switch.
> Crimp all three wires into a single blue terminal at the
> switch. See;
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
>
OK, fine. I'll do what I'm told.... but why run the extra weight of wires?
> I'm still trying to figure out what to use for various joints.
> Is there a permanent joint for RG58?
>
> Sure. Look over the products at:
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/antenna/antenna.html
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-2
>
> and article at:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/bnccrimp.pdf
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/coaxconn/coaxconn.html
>
I was looking for a permanent join, but I guess BNC connectors are the
product of choice, even if the join will never be removed. I got the
connectors and the crimper, and followed the instructions. But my first
crimp pulled the connector off the end of the wire when I tried to pull it
through. I guess I need practice, or should pull more gently.
> What should I use to join the nav lights in the wing root? Knife splices
> seem a little inconvienient when the wing is removed and reinstalled.
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd wire the wings with 10'
> hunks of wire hanging out the root. When the wings
> are installed, put a service loop of about 6" slack
> at the root and route wires on into the fuselage
> to the panel. IF and when you need to remove your
> wings (I'm renting airplanes that are 40 years old
> that probably have never had the wings removed) then
> cut the wires and go back together with butt-splices
> or next best think is knife-splices.
>
> If your airplane gets routinely trailered and
> you HAVE to repeatedly open the wire bundles,
> then consider:
>
> or the white plastic Waldom/Molex or Tyco/AMP
> Mate-n-Lock with terminals applied like:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html
>
Hmmm. I think I'd like to have the wings fully removable for inspection
purposes.
I'll get the matenlocks
> Sorry about all the questions. I'm new to all this and really
> want to get it
> right.
>
>
> Understand. Suggest you take the time to browse all of
> the catalog pages on our website and check out ALL the
> articles.
There's a LOT of articles there, Bob. I printed the catalog and a bunch of
articles. I want to finish this plane eventually. I dont think I can read as
fast as you can write.
> There are certainly alternative materials and tools
> for the task other than what's on my website . . . when
> I set out to stock that site, I selected parts that
> I would use if it were my airplane. So what you'll
> find there is not like digging through the Aircraft
> Spruce catalog where there are multiple choices for
> everything.
Spruce??? You have to be kidding! I'd rather pay twice the price somewhere
else.
> The one thing I'm missing now is the wish list of electrical parts that we
> worked on.
>
> For example:
> Starter Contactor
> Battery contactor
> Ground Blocks
> Fuse block
> switches
> ...
> ...
My life would be a lot easier if I had a suggested "shopping list".
e.g. How much of each wire guage would someone typically use on a canard
pusher?
Given that I'll be dependant on electric supply for continued power (EFI and
duel electrical fuel pumps) I'm planning on duel batteries.
Is there a parts list for such an application?
Thanks for all the help.
John Slade
Cozy IV
http://kgarden.com/cozy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick DeCramer" <diesel(at)rconnect.com> |
| Subject: | An ATC opinion on Track/Heading |
My experience is 28 years as an ATC controller and 35 years as a sport
pilot. When a controller issues a "heading" then fly that HEADING as
issued, i.e. a DG set to a whiskey compass heading, inspite of any wind
correction angle you may feel you need. Above all DO NOT FLY A GPS
GROUND TRACK when told to fly a "heading" to "help the controller out"
as mentioned in this forum. Why? Because all the traffic you are being
sequenced with are on headings and you may bend sheet metal if you throw
in a 15 degree "GPS track correction" to help the controller out!!!
Even if it turns out harmless, you have violated an ATC clearance, which
the heading is, and if investigated you can be held accountable which
will happen if you get too close to your traffic. In the case of a
vector to ABC vor and you have a handheld GPS which you wish to use,
just tell ATC you have a GPS and wish to go GPS direct and you will get
it as soon as possible. Controllers know GPS is good for everyone and
they don't care if it is $50,000 unit in a Boeing or a Walmart handheld
in a Kitfox just be sure you can do what you are asking. Yes, FAA
equipment is not state of the art or even close to GPS technology but
clearances are an agreement between pilot and ATC and both must honor
them to be effective. That said let's get back to electrons, ohms, and
aircraft sytems and if you wish to carry this farther contact me off
list.
Dick DeCramer
ATC Minneapolis ARTCC retired
RV6 wiring (still)
N number withheld
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flexible Battery cable |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I noticed that you offer flexible battery cables made to length in your
>catalogue. I have two questions. Do you sell this cable by the foot,
>rather than pre-terminated ?. My second question is what is the cable size
>equivalent to? I am looking for around 4 AWG.
Those are fabricated from 4AWG electric welder cable. You
can purchase locally from welding supply house. They'll have
2 and 0AWG also.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Heading vs death spiral. |
One of the missing elements in this heading vs. track discussion..the most
important part of flying in the clouds is heading..is you need to keep the
wings level, and this can only be done with a constant heading. Track vs
heading is a semantic discussion as relates to course over the ground, but
maintaining a fairly stable heading is the only way to keep wings level. I
am told GPS will update fast enough to keep an aircraft under control using
the compass rose type display (HSI mode) on a Garmin 295, but I have't tried
it yet. Does anyone have any experience using the GPS in a "directional
gyro mode?" I wonder if it could be used as a backup to the DG portion of
the vacuum system or the T and B indicator? The DG gives only heading
information, as does the compass..the GPS only gives track info, but you can
deduce the general heading from the ground track history. I think GPS
updates the track info about once per second but I couldn't swear to it.
The GPS doesn't care where the nose is pointed..it only "knows" where it is
and where its been. The ADF is the only radio nav instrument that can
determine which way the nose is aimed realtive to the station..VOR won't do
this either.
If you can keep the plane wings level,or at least out of a spiral, then you
can be concerned with such niceties as getting where you are going.
David Leonard 72 Bellanca Super Viking.
________________________________________________________________________________
It IS great. The only disadvantage to the system is the tangle of cables,
and that problem can be minimized with judicious use of cable ties to
control the tangles. Well, actually there is another disadvantage, because
once you fly with the color moving map you get the urge to spend the really
big bucks on a big display in the panel of your own airplane. My
"installation" is a bit low end, with a Cassiopeia E-100 for the
daylight-readable display and input from a Garmin GPS 12, but it does the
job quite nicely. Since the feds quit messing with the GPS signals it is
even good enough to follow your track on taxiways.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-GEar
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
j1j2h3(at)juno.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Moving map
I just finished reading the review of Control Vison's Anywhere software
in the July Kitplanes magazine. It sounds great. Does anyone have any
experience with it?
Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.blackler(at)boeing.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Long EZ electrical system |
Bob,
I need weight up front anyhow, to fix the aft CofG resulting from the IO-360
installation. I figure the weight may as well be a couple of interchangeable
batteries rather than lead (although lead is higher density..).
Wayne.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Long EZ electrical system
>
>
>G'Day Bob,
>
>I have Santa Barbara to Hawaii as the longest leg at this stage at
2063.5nm.
>
>
>Electrical MEL. currently includes a B&C 12V 60A alternator, B&C SD-20 12V
>20A alternator, duel B&C LR-3's, dual B&C 15AH 12V batteries (low Ri), main
>and aux (essential) buses (using your fuse blocks) with cross feed, and
dual
>Lightspeed electronic ignition. FYI Engine is an IO-360. Avionic MEL has
not
>been determined at this stage.
>
>Any comments on how you would set up an EZ for this task would be much
>appreciated, particularly in terms of what you would run off the essential
>bus. I want to set the aircraft up with the Z14 initially and add the
>avionics required over time.
>
>Wayne
Given the service history of the B&C alternators I'm wondering
if the 2alt/2bat system isn't overkill . . . it's certainly
heavy. Would a 10A backup run everything you need for
continued flight en route to destination? The all electric
airplane on a budget is very close to the redundancy of
the 2alt/2bat system with only one battery. If you open
the DC power master and close the alternate feed system you
have an electrical system equal to that which has been flying
on thousands of EZ-type aircraft for about 15 years. If there's
a 'weak' link in this system, it's the regulator which can
be made more robust with extra heatsinking to keep it cool
under full load.
Closing the DC Power Master adds another alternator and lets
you power up heavier, but generally expendable loads for
en route operations.
This system would be about 20 pounds lighter and much
less expensive for equivalent performance. The only item
common to the two-layers of this system is the battery.
I would put in a fresh battery about 20 hours before the
trip to make sure you don't have one with a manufacturing
defect in it.
Just for grins, you could put a second S704-1
s/b alternator control relay in and use it to put a
small battery, say 4-6 a.h. on line the same time
as when the alternator is brought on line. Then feed the
second alternator directly to the e-bus so that it
bypasses the alternate feed switch. Now you have two
alternators and two batteries with a VERY high prospect
for availability of at least 10A of engine driven power
for continued flight. What stuff needs to be running
ALL the time and would 10A do it?
Would this get the job done? I understand your concerns
about reliablity based on what we've learned about
hardware and architecture of certified systems . . .
but you're truly working in a whole new world
with the B&C parts.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LJoh896239(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: An ATC opinion on Track/Heading |
Amen. This reminds me of a few years ago when pilots in the new automated
airliners were tracking centerline after takeoff, and the 727s, etc. were
drifting with the wind in "heading select" off the parallel runway. Today
everyone flies heading and all drift together.
Lance Johnson
RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Bowen <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heading vs death spiral. |
I had the pleasure of flying in the back seat of Scott Jordon's RV-8 to SNF.
When he let me drive, I used the 295 in my lap to maintain a constant track and
altitude because I couldn't really see the panel. I did this for 30-45 minutes
at a time, I think. I was able to to do an adequate job with the GPS alone,
but found it a little fatiguing. I had to concentrate more. It would be very
difficult to recover from an unusual attitude with the GPS alone and no outside
visual queues.
-LB
--- "David A. Leonard" wrote:
>
>
> One of the missing elements in this heading vs. track discussion..the most
> important part of flying in the clouds is heading..is you need to keep the
> wings level, and this can only be done with a constant heading. Track vs
> heading is a semantic discussion as relates to course over the ground, but
> maintaining a fairly stable heading is the only way to keep wings level. I
> am told GPS will update fast enough to keep an aircraft under control using
> the compass rose type display (HSI mode) on a Garmin 295, but I have't tried
> it yet. Does anyone have any experience using the GPS in a "directional
> gyro mode?" I wonder if it could be used as a backup to the DG portion of
> the vacuum system or the T and B indicator? The DG gives only heading
> information, as does the compass..the GPS only gives track info, but you can
> deduce the general heading from the ground track history. I think GPS
> updates the track info about once per second but I couldn't swear to it.
> The GPS doesn't care where the nose is pointed..it only "knows" where it is
> and where its been. The ADF is the only radio nav instrument that can
> determine which way the nose is aimed realtive to the station..VOR won't do
> this either.
> If you can keep the plane wings level,or at least out of a spiral, then you
> can be concerned with such niceties as getting where you are going.
>
> David Leonard 72 Bellanca Super Viking.
>
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DMarti1029(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: ati-3 bracket source? |
try www.aircraftinstruments.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Avspark Electronic Ignition |
I've been using an electronic ignition system on my Lycoming O-320-E2A
for about 10 years. The unit was sold by a company called AvSpark, of
Ontario, Canada. The unit has performed satisfactorily until just the
other day when it was totally dead. The engine has one magneto and when
that was switched off, the engine died. The indications in the cockpit
were completely normal otherwise: The light indicating that the system
is on was lit; the electronic tach showed RPM when the electronic unit
was selected. The only thing wrong was that the electronic ignition did
not run the engine!
Does anyone have any experience with this unit and be able to provide
any clues as to troubleshooting? The information that came with it dealt
only with installation. A call to the phone number got a somewhat grumpy
individual, who I suspect I awakened. Definitely not the company. The
coil and the controller unit have no obvious part numbers and I'm not
sure even what car they came out of.
As for options, does anyone want to comment about the advisability of
installing either another magneto or a different electronic ignition
system?
Thanks in advance.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Actually, it's 'semantics - noun plural' from 'sematikos', Greek - meaning
significant. there ain't a 'y' within three miles.
Cheers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Long EZ electrical system |
Bob. Did you miss my post below, or did I miss the reply?
> John, why not join the AeroElecric List to carry on this
> conversation?
I'm here.
> The (one page) instructions for my Aeroflash strobes make no mention of
> shielded wire.
>
> Hmmm . . . did the strobes come with an installation kit?
> Does the schematic show shielded wire? (See chapter 1 in
> the book).
No, and no. I'm rereading Chapter 1 now.
The Aeroflash lights have 6 wires coming out of them. 3 20awg and 3 18awg.
Should I just extend these wires to the power supply, switchs and grond per
the schematic?
The power supply max draw is 5.3 amps (it says).
> > Get the running loads for each item in amps. Pick the
> > next largest fuse to carry those amps and pick a wire rated
> > for those amps from the wire table in the book.
>
> OK. But I have a question here. Say I'm wiring the position lights, which
> each take 5 amps. Should I run 16AWG back to a T, then use 20AWG to each
> light?
>
> Astute question. This is the one case where one has to account
> for the TOTAL load of multiple small loads. Each lamp runs at
> about 2A. The total is 6A. This means that the breaker/fuse
> should be about 7A. If you have a 7A protection, then the ENTIRE
> system should be wired for 7A loads irrespective of the fact
> that each branch is loaded to only 2A. Bring 20AWG wires all
> the way from each lamp to the back of your nav lights switch.
> Crimp all three wires into a single blue terminal at the
> switch. See;
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
>
OK, fine. I'll do what I'm told.... but why run the extra weight of wires?
> I'm still trying to figure out what to use for various joints.
> Is there a permanent joint for RG58?
>
> Sure. Look over the products at:
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/antenna/antenna.html
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-2
>
> and article at:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/bnccrimp.pdf
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/coaxconn/coaxconn.html
>
I was looking for a permanent join, but I guess BNC connectors are the
product of choice, even if the join will never be removed. I got the
connectors and the crimper, and followed the instructions. But my first
crimp pulled the connector off the end of the wire when I tried to pull it
through. I guess I need practice, or should pull more gently.
> What should I use to join the nav lights in the wing root? Knife splices
> seem a little inconvienient when the wing is removed and reinstalled.
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd wire the wings with 10'
> hunks of wire hanging out the root. When the wings
> are installed, put a service loop of about 6" slack
> at the root and route wires on into the fuselage
> to the panel. IF and when you need to remove your
> wings (I'm renting airplanes that are 40 years old
> that probably have never had the wings removed) then
> cut the wires and go back together with butt-splices
> or next best think is knife-splices.
>
> If your airplane gets routinely trailered and
> you HAVE to repeatedly open the wire bundles,
> then consider:
>
> or the white plastic Waldom/Molex or Tyco/AMP
> Mate-n-Lock with terminals applied like:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html
>
Hmmm. I think I'd like to have the wings fully removable for inspection
purposes.
I'll get the matenlocks
> Sorry about all the questions. I'm new to all this and really
> want to get it
> right.
>
>
> Understand. Suggest you take the time to browse all of
> the catalog pages on our website and check out ALL the
> articles.
There's a LOT of articles there, Bob. I printed the catalog and a bunch of
articles. I want to finish this plane eventually. I dont think I can read as
fast as you can write.
> There are certainly alternative materials and tools
> for the task other than what's on my website . . . when
> I set out to stock that site, I selected parts that
> I would use if it were my airplane. So what you'll
> find there is not like digging through the Aircraft
> Spruce catalog where there are multiple choices for
> everything.
Spruce??? You have to be kidding! I'd rather pay twice the price somewhere
else.
> The one thing I'm missing now is the wish list of electrical parts that we
> worked on.
>
> For example:
> Starter Contactor
> Battery contactor
> Ground Blocks
> Fuse block
> switches
> ...
> ...
My life would be a lot easier if I had a suggested "shopping list".
e.g. How much of each wire guage would someone typically use on a canard
pusher?
Given that I'll be dependant on electric supply for continued power (EFI and
duel electrical fuel pumps) I'm planning on duel batteries.
Is there a parts list for such an application?
Thanks for all the help.
John Slade
Cozy IV
http://kgarden.com/cozy
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <swedan(at)pcmagic.net> |
| Subject: | Heading vs death spiral |
. Does anyone have any experience using the GPS in a "directional
> gyro mode?" I wonder if it could be used as a backup to the DG portion of
> the vacuum system or the T and B indicator? The DG gives only heading
> information, as does the compass..the GPS only gives track info, but you
can
> deduce the general heading from the ground track history. I think GPS
> updates the track info about once per second but I couldn't swear to it.
I believe that Peter Lert wrote an article several years ago in Kitplanes or
Private Pilot about maintaining directional control under the hood, and
shooting an approach using a handheld GPS in the HSI mode (he tried it with
an observer in the other seat, to make it legal).
As I remember it His conclusion was that with small inputs, shallow turns,
practice, and the realization that the GPS only tells you where you've been,
that an approach could be shot with one. He strongly emphasized that
PRACTICE was needed, and that the pilot would be very busy. It was truly a
no-gyro approach that could save your bacon if all the other instruments
failed.
Dan Branstrom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avspark Electronic Ignition |
Call the operator in Canada and have her do a search for the company...
Do a web search for them...
If no joy, then ship it to Lightspeed and see if he can/will repair it...
It's not a complicated job if it is just a coil or the power transistor...
If there are some unmarked chips in the controller, it could be non
repairable... In any event, you will not want to go back to magneto's
only... Replace it with the Lightspeed, or electronic unit of your choice...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avspark Electronic Ignition
>
> I've been using an electronic ignition system on my Lycoming O-320-E2A
> for about 10 years. The unit was sold by a company called AvSpark, of
> Ontario, Canada. The unit has performed satisfactorily until just the
> other day when it was totally dead. The engine has one magneto and when
> that was switched off, the engine died. The indications in the cockpit
> were completely normal otherwise: The light indicating that the system
> is on was lit; the electronic tach showed RPM when the electronic unit
> was selected. The only thing wrong was that the electronic ignition did
> not run the engine!
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this unit and be able to provide
> any clues as to troubleshooting? The information that came with it dealt
> only with installation. A call to the phone number got a somewhat grumpy
> individual, who I suspect I awakened. Definitely not the company. The
> coil and the controller unit have no obvious part numbers and I'm not
> sure even what car they came out of.
>
> As for options, does anyone want to comment about the advisability of
> installing either another magneto or a different electronic ignition
> system?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bill
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE:backup battery |
Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators, but a
single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be plugged
in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or in your
car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small 10 to
20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Avspark Electronic Ignition |
This link says that Mark Pollock was the developer of that
ignition.
http://www.ontariorvators.org/members_pages/pollock.htm
And this link shows his phone number: Mark Pollock 705-741-1335
http://www.eagle.ca/aviation/eaa.html
And finally, if the system was automotive based then parts should
be pretty available at your local NAPA store, even if you don't
know what kind of vehicle they were canibalized from. They have
a picture book that shows every type of ignition module and coil
that they have.
The really common automotive pieces are GM HEI. The coil looks
like this:
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/IS/ISA/f821-1.html
And the module is pictured in the top of this graphic:
http://www.ipns.com/rlewis/hei.htm
Good luck! I agree with the other poster that sticking with the
ei is a good idea...
Matt Prather
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net>
Date: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:44 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avspark Electronic Ignition
>
> I've been using an electronic ignition system on my Lycoming O-320-E2A
> for about 10 years. The unit was sold by a company called AvSpark, of
> Ontario, Canada. The unit has performed satisfactorily until just the
> other day when it was totally dead. The engine has one magneto and
> whenthat was switched off, the engine died. The indications in the
> cockpitwere completely normal otherwise: The light indicating that
> the system
> is on was lit; the electronic tach showed RPM when the electronic unit
> was selected. The only thing wrong was that the electronic ignition
> didnot run the engine!
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this unit and be able to provide
> any clues as to troubleshooting? The information that came with it
> dealtonly with installation. A call to the phone number got a
> somewhat grumpy
> individual, who I suspect I awakened. Definitely not the company. The
> coil and the controller unit have no obvious part numbers and I'm not
> sure even what car they came out of.
>
> As for options, does anyone want to comment about the advisability of
> installing either another magneto or a different electronic ignition
> system?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bill
>
>
> _-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE:backup battery |
KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators, but a
> single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be plugged
> in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or in your
> car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small 10 to
> 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
>
*** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE:backup battery |
>
> KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual
> alternators, but a
> > single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than
> can be plugged
> > in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at
> home or in your
> > car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be
> a small 10 to
> > 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
> >
> *** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
Hmmm. I'm planning on duel batteries anyway, but how about plugging one of
these into cigarette lighter socket per their design. Would that work as an
extra backup?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: backup battery |
>
>KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators,
> but a
> > single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be
> plugged
> > in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or in
> your
> > car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small
> 10 to
> > 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
> >
>*** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
Or install/maintain a battery you can depend on in the first
place.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: backup battery |
>
> >
> > KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual
> > alternators, but a
> > > single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than
> > can be plugged
> > > in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at
> > home or in your
> > > car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be
> > a small 10 to
> > > 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
> > >
> > *** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
>
>Hmmm. I'm planning on duel batteries anyway, but how about plugging one of
>these into cigarette lighter socket per their design. Would that work as an
>extra backup?
If one's concerns for "backup" are valid then whatever
you use to accomplish the task should be as reliable
(if not more so) than the original battery. Plugging
ANYTHING into a cigarette lighter socket is not dependable
in any venue. That device was designed 60+ years
ago to light cigarettes, no save your bunnies from
a poor electrical system design. Backup devices
should be hardwired to the system with the same
level of integrity as the primary system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fly Lights (map lights) |
I've been looking for a nice map light setup to install in my Europa. I found
kensington USB fly light:
http://www.kensington.com/products/pro_cas_d1334.html
They come in blue (white) and Red lights w/ a 19 inch stalk. I'm thinking of
knocking down the voltage to 5v and installing two in the overhead, one white
and one red and another USB plug on the panel. I could then unplug the lights
and move them where they are needed.
Any Idea's, suggestions,
SteveD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | brucem(at)olypen.com |
| Subject: | RE: Heading vs death spiral |
While under the hood recently I covered all three gyros and used the
HSI page on my portable GPS III Pilot unit to maintain track. I was
able to navigate to my home airport and used distance and bearing
from the GPS make a 500-1 approach. Thus tracking, turns and
descents are possible with GPS, airspeed and altimeter only. Now
this occurred in a Cessna 172 in occasional light chop, so the
experiment was limited. I did not try unusual attitudes as my
intent was to test the concept of getting down safetly despite a
complete failure. I'll give that a try the next time I am under the
hood.
Regards,
Bruce
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail.
http://www.olypen.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | brucem(at)olypen.com |
My experiment with using a portable GPS to get home under the hood
with all gyros covered contributed to my recent decison to save
$2,000 by installing a conventional vacuum system for the AI and DG.
Then I read a comment in a 1987 Plane Maintenance book that float
planes suffer early vacuum pump failures due to the shock and
vibration of water operations. It quotes some operators as getting
less than 200 hours before failure. Perhaps you float flyers out
there could give me some guidance as I harbor the dream of amphib
floats someday. Also, do electric gyros have any better tolerance
of shock than vacuum driven ones? Either way, my gyros will be
shock mounted.
TIA,
Bruce
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail.
http://www.olypen.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Homebuilt Avionics Harness |
Are there any restrictions to a homebuilder building the Avionics interconnect
harness? ie, between the encoder and xpndr etc?
Also, does the entire system have to be ramp checked before flight (ie during final
inspection?)
Thanks much,
--
Andy Karmy
andy(at)karmy.com
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: RV-List: ELT antenna orientation |
--- David Carter wrote:
>
> To explain the thread, Konrad was asking about perhaps more than 1
> ELT
> antenna, for higher probability of 1 of them surviving a crash and
> being
> oriented well enough to be picked up by searchers and satellites.
Hmmm... using a signal splitter?
Reduced signal strength?
Better two radiation patterns at reduced signal levels or one at
maximum (given battery status)?
Grist for the mill...
- Mike
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: RV-List: ELTs and their antenna's |
I just fwd'd this topic from RV-list to Aeroelectric list - then found this
gem of a response on the RV-list and am sharing it on the Aeroelec List. I
don't need any more tutoring - I think this guy has said it all, so, "I call
off the dogs - we have got a good response to the basic question."
Thanks, all.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus" <marcustuck(at)cwcom.net>
Subject: RV-List: ELTs and their antenna's
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Marcus"
>
> I have been reading a lot of questions about ELTs and their aerials, I
hope
> the following helps.
> I have some experience in searching for ELTs from a C130 in the South
> Atlantic, a place I would not like to be lost. When we start the search
for
> an ELT we start at about 10,000 feet, to increase the horizon (12.3
> multiplied by the square root of your height in 100's of feet i.e. 10,000
> feet = 123 Nm). At this height once we detect a signal we will home
towards
> it, once 'on top' we will mark the position and start an orbiting decent
> around the marked position. Once at low level, about 250 feet, we will
home
> back towards the mark position and try to detect the signal again and then
> hopefully spot the survivor. The point of explaining this is to
understand
> what affect the aerial position has. As I am sure you know a dipole
aerial
> has radiation pattern that is shaped like a doughnut with a hole in the
> middle! Directly above the aerial (if it is mounted vertically) there is
> very little signal therefore when we look for the 'on top' we get a 'cone
of
> silence' above the aerial which we use to locate the survivor. However,
if
> the aerial is not vertical this 'cone of silence' could be quite some
> distance to one side of the survivor, which is why we have to get lower
and
> try to detect the signal again. This is why it is important to try to set
> up your ELT aerial in the vertical post crash. It makes the job of the
> rescue services much easier, you also get the maximum range in all
> directions. It is still possible to home to the ELT with the aerial in
any
> position, you are just reducing the chances of detection and speed of
> location considerably if its not vertical. The next point, splitting the
> signal from the ELT to 2 aerials, if the signal is split you now have 2
> transmitting aerials with half the power each. Half the power means
quarter
> the range! (inverse square law) Add to this the interference pattern of
the
> 2 aerials (constructive and destructive interference) and in some
directions
> you will get no signal and others the full signal (as much as a single
> aerial without the split) but the average will be a lot less than the
single
> aerial, as you can tell I would not recommend it. If I install an ELT
(not
> required in the UK, I think the country is too small, if you crash its
> probably going to be in someone's garden!) I would try to install it in
the
> cabin with the aerial vertical at shoulder height and attached to the ELT.
> The logic being if the cabin is so damaged that the ELT does not work I
> probably will not require rescuing, and with the roll bar the aerial
should
> be protected and be near vertical even if upside-down. There are also the
> minimum number of points of failure with the aerial on the ELT, and it
could
> be quickly removed during the escape from a burning or sinking aircraft.
> This is just my opinion but I hope it helps.
>
> Building an RV-8 just started the wings.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John & Amy Eckel <eckel1(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fly Lights (map lights) |
----- Original Message -----
From: <ScramIt(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fly Lights (map lights)
>
> I've been looking for a nice map light setup to install in my Europa. I
found
> kensington USB fly light:
> http://www.kensington.com/products/pro_cas_d1334.html
> They come in blue (white) and Red lights w/ a 19 inch stalk. I'm thinking
of
> knocking down the voltage to 5v and installing two in the overhead, one
white
> and one red and another USB plug on the panel. I could then unplug the
lights
> and move them where they are needed.
>
> Any Idea's, suggestions,
> SteveD
Steve,
Game Boy makes a small light that is powered by the unit,
but I don't know the voltage. Appears to be an LED and
the light is white. Sounds like you have a good idea.
John
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <stambaug(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:backup battery |
That is exactly my plan. I have a all-glass cockpit from Sierra Flight
Systems and 3 backup 2.5" analog gauges. I am running the 60 amp B&C
alternator on the front of the motor and the 8 amp backup alternator on the
vacuum pad. I will have one battery in the back but since I am running dual
Lightspeed ignitions I wanted the option on long flights over rough terrain
to have a backup power system for the ignition system only. It dawned on me
that a easy to acquire, easy to charge and easy to maintain system would be
to use the 18 volt battery and charger from a industrial cordless drill
such as DeWalt sells. I would buy a extra charger and cut it apart to use
the battery receiver as the mount in the airplane. I would use Double Pole,
Double Throw switches (ON-OFF-ON) to power the ignition units were the up
position is normal ship's power and the down position would get power from
the drill battery. This system would allow for an extra drill battery in
the glove box for particularly risky long over water flights and the like.
But the best part is that when I don't need any of this extra security I
can just leave the batteries in the hangar on the charger.
By the way this is all going in my F1 Rocket.
scot
At 06:20 AM 6/11/2002, you wrote:
Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators, but a
single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be plugged
in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or in your
car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small 10 to
20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebuilt Avionics Harness |
>
>Are there any restrictions to a homebuilder building the Avionics
>interconnect harness? ie, between the encoder and xpndr etc?
Nope.
>Also, does the entire system have to be ramp checked before flight (ie
>during final inspection?)
Part 91 applied to all privately owned and operated aircraft
and a periodic test of the pitot static system and confirmed
agreement between altimeter display and encoded altitude supplied
to the transponder is required and a good idea to boot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Long EZ electrical system |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I need weight up front anyhow, to fix the aft CofG resulting from the IO-360
>installation. I figure the weight may as well be a couple of interchangeable
>batteries rather than lead (although lead is higher density..).
I went out to the flight line at OSH about 10 years
ago to help trouble shoot an alternator problem in
a Long-Ez. The guy had an itty-bitty piece-o-crap
motor cycle battery up front nestled amongst about
20# of lead shot in bags.
If ya gotta have ballast, it might as well be USEFUL
ballast!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fast On Mating & Unmating |
>
>From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fast On Mating & Unmating
>
>Gabe,
> I thought I was the only one with that problem. Fast-on's are almost
> impossible to
>dissassemble in a controlled manner by hand. You need vice grip fingers to
>unmate them and if
>and when it comes off you will be in some contorted position under the
>dash and bash your
>hands and or break adjacent wires. . . .
Hmmmm . . and to think of all the flack I took
from folks who believed that these things were
just going to fall of like snowflakes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fly Lights (map lights) |
As an amateur USB developer, this interface makes me cringe. The USB port
is the wrong tool for the job!
The USB port provides 5V and guarantees 100mA to the device. BUT-- the
device has to have a microcontroller in it to deal with the software
protocol to initiliaze the USB enumeration (and all that other technical
mumbo jumbo). This is overhead that's ridiculous, both for a computer light
and a cockpit light. In addition, if this thing is designed properly (and it
probably isn't), the light won't come on until the USB initialization has
completed. If you're not going to put a USB host controller in your cockpit
(let's face it: you're probably not), then it wouldn't work at all in your
cockpit.
I do like the gooseneck design and presume this is part of what attracts you
to this solution. If you were to use this product, I'd suggest you rip out
the guts and just use the gooseneck. But if you're going to go that route,
I'd see if I could find a gooseneck holder elsewhere and completely roll my
own light.
You'd need to step down your 12V ship's power to 5V for the USB light. If
you were to design your own light using LED's, you could use raw ship's
power with an appropriate current-limiting resistor. The resistor(s) would
be much cheaper than a voltage regulator.
-Matt
> I've been looking for a nice map light setup to install in my Europa. I
found
> kensington USB fly light:
> http://www.kensington.com/products/pro_cas_d1334.html
> They come in blue (white) and Red lights w/ a 19 inch stalk. I'm thinking
of
> knocking down the voltage to 5v and installing two in the overhead, one
white
> and one red and another USB plug on the panel. I could then unplug the
lights
> and move them where they are needed.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Long EZ electrical system |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >I need weight up front anyhow, to fix the aft CofG resulting from the IO-360
> >installation. I figure the weight may as well be a couple of interchangeable
> >batteries rather than lead (although lead is higher density..).
>
> I went out to the flight line at OSH about 10 years
> ago to help trouble shoot an alternator problem in
> a Long-Ez. The guy had an itty-bitty piece-o-crap
> motor cycle battery up front nestled amongst about
> 20# of lead shot in bags.
>
> If ya gotta have ballast, it might as well be USEFUL
> ballast!
>
> Bob . . .
>
"nestled amongst about 20# of lead shot in bags."
A caution for EZ builders: The cloth bags that lead shot
comes in will rot. I've personally witnessed shot migrating
to the rear of an EZ after the bags disintegrated.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: John Slade - your questions |
>
> > John, why not join the AeroElecric List to carry on this
> > conversation?
>I'm here.
>
> > The (one page) instructions for my Aeroflash strobes make no mention of
> > shielded wire.
> >
> > Hmmm . . . did the strobes come with an installation kit?
> > Does the schematic show shielded wire? (See chapter 1 in
> > the book).
>No, and no. I'm rereading Chapter 1 now.
>The Aeroflash lights have 6 wires coming out of them. 3 20awg and 3 18awg.
>Should I just extend these wires to the power supply, switchs and grond per
>the schematic?
>The power supply max draw is 5.3 amps (it says).
Hmmm . . . which model do you have? I'm looking at their
website at:
http://www.aeroflash.com/plane.html#fuse
and an "installation manual" at
http://www.aeroflash.com/156-0039.pdf
. . . nothing I see suggests that they supply
or recommend shielded wire with their products.
It is interesting that their p/n 008-0018
gasket is referred to as an "EMI" gasket.
Did you get any 3-conductor cable with the
strobe kit?
> > > Get the running loads for each item in amps. Pick the
> > > next largest fuse to carry those amps and pick a wire rated
> > > for those amps from the wire table in the book.
> >
> > OK. But I have a question here. Say I'm wiring the position lights, which
> > each take 5 amps. Should I run 16AWG back to a T, then use 20AWG to each
> > light?
> >
> > Astute question. This is the one case where one has to account
> > for the TOTAL load of multiple small loads. Each lamp runs at
> > about 2A. The total is 6A. This means that the breaker/fuse
> > should be about 7A. If you have a 7A protection, then the ENTIRE
> > system should be wired for 7A loads irrespective of the fact
> > that each branch is loaded to only 2A. Bring 20AWG wires all
> > the way from each lamp to the back of your nav lights switch.
> > Crimp all three wires into a single blue terminal at the
> > switch. See;
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
> >
>OK, fine. I'll do what I'm told.... but why run the extra weight of wires?
>
> > I'm still trying to figure out what to use for various joints.
> > Is there a permanent joint for RG58?
> >
> > Sure. Look over the products at:
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/antenna/antenna.html
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-2
> >
> > and article at:
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/articles/bnccrimp.pdf
> > http://209.134.106.21/articles/coaxconn/coaxconn.html
> >
>I was looking for a permanent join, but I guess BNC connectors are the
>product of choice, even if the join will never be removed. I got the
>connectors and the crimper, and followed the instructions. But my first
>crimp pulled the connector off the end of the wire when I tried to pull it
>through. I guess I need practice, or should pull more gently.
>
> > What should I use to join the nav lights in the wing root? Knife splices
> > seem a little inconvienient when the wing is removed and reinstalled.
> >
> > If it were my airplane, I'd wire the wings with 10'
> > hunks of wire hanging out the root. When the wings
> > are installed, put a service loop of about 6" slack
> > at the root and route wires on into the fuselage
> > to the panel. IF and when you need to remove your
> > wings (I'm renting airplanes that are 40 years old
> > that probably have never had the wings removed) then
> > cut the wires and go back together with butt-splices
> > or next best think is knife-splices.
> >
> > If your airplane gets routinely trailered and
> > you HAVE to repeatedly open the wire bundles,
> > then consider:
> >
> > or the white plastic Waldom/Molex or Tyco/AMP
> > Mate-n-Lock with terminals applied like:
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html
> >
>Hmmm. I think I'd like to have the wings fully removable for inspection
>purposes.
>I'll get the matenlocks
>
> > Sorry about all the questions. I'm new to all this and really
> > want to get it
> > right.
> >
> >
> > Understand. Suggest you take the time to browse all of
> > the catalog pages on our website and check out ALL the
> > articles.
>
>There's a LOT of articles there, Bob. I printed the catalog and a bunch of
>articles. I want to finish this plane eventually. I dont think I can read as
>fast as you can write.
>
> > There are certainly alternative materials and tools
> > for the task other than what's on my website . . . when
> > I set out to stock that site, I selected parts that
> > I would use if it were my airplane. So what you'll
> > find there is not like digging through the Aircraft
> > Spruce catalog where there are multiple choices for
> > everything.
>Spruce??? You have to be kidding! I'd rather pay twice the price somewhere
>else.
I was citing Spruce as an example of catalog form, not
necessarily as a recommended source for your parts.
> > The one thing I'm missing now is the wish list of electrical parts that we
> > worked on.
> >
> > For example:
> > Starter Contactor - There's only one S704-1
> > Battery contactor _ Only one of these too S701-1 . . . one for each battery
> > Ground Blocks -
> > Fuse block - 20, 10, and two 6 slot. Main, E-bus, two battery busses.
> > switches
> > ...
> > ...
>My life would be a lot easier if I had a suggested "shopping list".
>e.g. How much of each wire guage would someone typically use on a canard
>pusher?
>Given that I'll be dependant on electric supply for continued power (EFI and
>duel electrical fuel pumps) I'm planning on duel batteries.
>Is there a parts list for such an application?
Here's 90%-plus of what you'll need. You can delete those
items you already have:
RCT-1 PIDG Crimp Tool @ $40.00/ea: 1
RCT-2 BNC Crimp Tool @ $40.00/ea: 1
RCT-3 D-Sub Crimp Tool @ $38.00/ea: 1
BCT-1 B-Crimp Terminal Tool @ $32.00/ea: 1
DSE-1 Insertion/Extraction Tool @ $5.00/ea: 1
HDC-1 Cable Cutter @ $12.00/ea: 1
DMM-2 Digital Multimeter @ $45.00/ea: 1
115V/25W Soldering Iron @ $14.00: 1
ANT-1 Transponder Antenna @ $32.50.00/ea: 1
RG-400 Coax @ $1.75/ft (less than 50'): 40
S605CM Coax Connector @ $2.00/ea: 10
LR3C-14 Controller @ $228.00/ea: 1
DIM15-14 Dimmer @ $42.00/ea: 1
GCL-1 Goose-Neck Chart Light Kit @ $85.00/ea: 1
S700-1-3 Switch @ $5.00/ea: 6
S700-2-10 Switch @ $19.50/ea: 1
S701-1 12V, CD Contactor @ $26.00/ea: 2
S702-1 12V, ID Starter Contactor @ $25.00/ea: 1
S895-1 Starter Push-button with Guard Bezel @ $12.00/ea: 1
S708-1 Sub-miniature Push Button @ $6.80/ea: 2
S710-1 SPDT Pressure Switch @ $7.50/ea: 1
220420 1/4 NPTF to 1/8 NPTM Adapter @ $5.00/ea: 1
S894 Tape, 1 inch x 36 inch @ $2.00/ea: 2
FH-20 Fuseblock @ $40.00/ea: 1
FH-10 Fuseblock @ $25.00/ea: 1
FH-6 Fuseblock @ $17.00/ea: 2
S889-1, 1-Amp Fuse @ $2.50/Pk5: 1
S889-2, 2-Amp Fuse @ $2.50/Pk5: 1
S889-3 3-Amp Fuse @ $2.00/Pk5: 1
S889-5 5-Amp Fuse @ $2.00/Pk5: 1
S889-7 7-Amp Fuse @ $2.00/Pk5: 1
S889-10 10-Amp Fuse @ $2.00/Pk5: 1
C903-1 Base for ANL Current Limiters: 1
C905-40 ANL40 Current Limiter: 1
FLK-1 Fusible Link Kit @ $6.00/ea: 1
M22759/16-2-9 2AWG Wht Wire @ $4.00/ft: 30
M22759/16-4-9 4AWG Wht Wire @ $3.00/ft: 5
M22759/16-20-0 20AWG Blk Wire @ $0.20/ft: 100
M22759/16-22-9 22AWG Wht Wire @ $0.20/ft: 200
S906-1-20 20AWG Shielded Wire @ $0.35/ft: 20
RFO25-50, Red .25-inch FastOn @ $9.50/pk50: 1
RFO11-10, Red .11-inch FastOn @ $2.00/pk10: 1
BFO25-50, Blu .25-inch FastOn @ $9.50/pk50: 1
YFO25-10, Yel .25-inch FastOn @ $4.00/pk10: 1
S890RK-10, 18-22 AWG Knife Splice @ $6.00/pk10: 1
S890BK-10, 14-16 AWG Knife Splice @ $6.00/pk10: 1
S891RB-10, 18-22 AWG Butt Splice @ $6.00/pk10: 1
S891BB-10, 14-16 AWG Butt Splice @ $6.00/pk10: 1
S814R6-10, 18-22AWG Ring Terminal #6 Stud @ $2.00/pk10: 1
S814R8-10, 18-22AWG Ring Terminal #8 Stud @ $2.00/pk10: 1
S814R10-10, 18-22AWG Ring Terminal #10 Stud @ $2.00/pk10: 1
S814R25-10, 18-22AWG Ring Terminal .25 Stud @ $2.60/pk10: 1
S814R31-10, 18-22AWG Ring Terminal .31 Stud @ $2.60/pk10: 1
S814R38-10, 18-22AWG Ring Terminal .38 Stud @ $3.20/pk10: 1
S814B6-10, 14-16AWG Ring Terminal #6 Stud @ $2.00/10pk: 1
S814B8-10, 14-16AWG Ring Terminal #8 Stud @ $2.00/10pk: 1
S814B10-10, 14-16AWG Ring Terminal #10 Stud @ $2.00/pk10: 1
S814B25-10, 14-16AWG Ring Terminal .25 Stud @ $2.00/pk10: 1
S814B31-10, 14-16AWG Ring Terminal .31 Stud @ $2.60/pk10: 1
S814B38-10, 14-16AWG Ring Terminal .38 Stud @ $3.00/pk10: 1
D25 Diode Assembly @ $7.00/ea: 1
GB-24 24-Tab Groundblock @ $26.00/ea: 1
S816CKIT Clear Heatshrink Kit @ $18.00/kt: 1
MS25171-2S Terminal Insulation Boot @ $2.00/ea: 10
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: John Slade - your questions |
Bob,
>> The instructions for my Aeroflash strobes make no mention of shielded
wire.
> Hmmm . . . which model do you have? I'm looking at their website at:
> http://www.aeroflash.com/plane.html#fuse
I have Kit No. 156-0049. I never thought to look at their web site. I have
their instructions, but there is no mention of shielded wire.
> Did you get any 3-conductor cable with the
> strobe kit?
No. I guess I'll just extend the existing wires.
> Here's 90%-plus of what you'll need. You can delete those
> items you already have:
Thanks. That helps a lot.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: John Slade - your questions |
Hello John,
as your power supplies are close to the strobes itself, there is no need for
shielded wiring (high voltage) except you might have some antennas routed
parallel in the same are, this could have a need. All the other wires are
low voltage and should not cause a problem.
Kind regards
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: John Slade - your questions
>
> Bob,
> >> The instructions for my Aeroflash strobes make no mention of shielded
> wire.
> > Hmmm . . . which model do you have? I'm looking at their website at:
> > http://www.aeroflash.com/plane.html#fuse
>
> I have Kit No. 156-0049. I never thought to look at their web site. I have
> their instructions, but there is no mention of shielded wire.
>
> > Did you get any 3-conductor cable with the
> > strobe kit?
> No. I guess I'll just extend the existing wires.
>
> > Here's 90%-plus of what you'll need. You can delete those
> > items you already have:
> Thanks. That helps a lot.
>
> John Slade
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronnie Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Strobe Wire Shielding |
While checking wiring and systems on my Velocity yesterday, I noticed that
the strobes were causing the Navaid autopilot servo to go into the jitters.
The Navaid's servo is mounted on the floor near the firewall and only about
three feet from the strobe's power supply. Turning the strobes off stopped
the problem. My strobes have a single power supply that is mounted in the
fuselage and then connects to the wing tips through Wheelen's 3 wire plus
shield wiring. My shields are not connected so I connected test leads to
the shields and grounded them. No luck.
But, when I switched my essential bus from normal to back up (normal is fed
by a 25 amp diode array as suggested by Bob to prevent back feeding the main
bus from the essential bus), the autopilot servo's jitters went away. The
diode causes a 1.5 volt drop in the essential bus.
Since the Navaid behaves even when transmitting on either of the Com
transmitters, I feel my grounding and shielding systems are working fine. I
have run ground returns parallel and in most cases twisted with the power
feed for most major power users. Also, most of my grounds tie directly to a
single point either on the back of the removable instrument panel or the
nearby canard bulkhead.
Ronnie Brown
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Butt splices/knife splices |
Bob,
As we hang on every word, I copied the following phrase [in
answer to a disciple asking about removable wing wirong:
"....then cut the wires and go back together with butt-splices or next best
think is knife-splices."
I was planning on the latter in preference to butts, but now am
not so sure. The Europa is built for trailering, so will be disconnecting
fairly regularly in the wing root, where moisture may prevail. I am
unfamiliar with the qualities of suitable plug/jack combinations in that
regard. Short of continual heatshrinking, what is your thinking on the
matter, please?
regards,
ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: John Slade - your questions |
> as your power supplies are close to the strobes itself, there is
> no need for
> shielded wiring (high voltage) except you might have some antennas routed
> parallel in the same are, this could have a need. All the other wires are
> low voltage and should not cause a problem.
Hello Werner.
Actually the power supplies will be about 14 feet from the strobes. I spoke
to Aeroflash and they recommend 3 conductor 18 gauge shielded wire. I found
some at Great Atlantic www.great-atlantic1.com
I still dont quite understand why it's better to feed each light seperately
from the switch with wire to take the full load of both wingtip lights,
rather than split the wire at the firewall and use a smaller wire to feed
each light. Note: Canard Pusher.
Thanks for the input.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Jitters |
Ronnie--
"Jitters" is a common problem with the Navaid and can be caused by several
different things. However, in your case, I don't think it's grounding or
shielding, it's probably low voltage.
The Navaid likes a very tight voltage range--I cannot remember the optimal
voltage, I'd have to call them. I'm assuming that you're doing your systems
check from battery power. So, right off the bat, you're down from 14.3 V to
12.5 V. Throw in the diodes in the normal switched bus and you're down to 11.0
V. Turn on the strobes and you could be down to 10.5 V, depending on your
battery. This will make the Navaid "jitter" Measure the voltage at the Navaid
terminals when it is "jittering" and then measure the back-up switch bus voltage
when it's not "jittering"--OR--use a 14 V power supply instead of battery.
Ronnie Brown wrote:
>
> While checking wiring and systems on my Velocity yesterday, I noticed that
> the strobes were causing the Navaid autopilot servo to go into the jitters.
> The Navaid's servo is mounted on the floor near the firewall and only about
> three feet from the strobe's power supply. Turning the strobes off stopped
> the problem. My strobes have a single power supply that is mounted in the
> fuselage and then connects to the wing tips through Wheelen's 3 wire plus
> shield wiring. My shields are not connected so I connected test leads to
> the shields and grounded them. No luck.
>
> But, when I switched my essential bus from normal to back up (normal is fed
> by a 25 amp diode array as suggested by Bob to prevent back feeding the main
> bus from the essential bus), the autopilot servo's jitters went away. The
> diode causes a 1.5 volt drop in the essential bus.
>
> Since the Navaid behaves even when transmitting on either of the Com
> transmitters, I feel my grounding and shielding systems are working fine. I
> have run ground returns parallel and in most cases twisted with the power
> feed for most major power users. Also, most of my grounds tie directly to a
> single point either on the back of the removable instrument panel or the
> nearby canard bulkhead.
>
> Ronnie Brown
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe Wire Shielding |
>
>While checking wiring and systems on my Velocity yesterday, I noticed that
>the strobes were causing the Navaid autopilot servo to go into the jitters.
>The Navaid's servo is mounted on the floor near the firewall and only about
>three feet from the strobe's power supply. Turning the strobes off stopped
>the problem. My strobes have a single power supply that is mounted in the
>fuselage and then connects to the wing tips through Wheelen's 3 wire plus
>shield wiring. My shields are not connected so I connected test leads to
>the shields and grounded them. No luck.
Was the alternator running or were you battery only? What was
the bus voltage?
>But, when I switched my essential bus from normal to back up (normal is fed
>by a 25 amp diode array as suggested by Bob to prevent back feeding the main
>bus from the essential bus), the autopilot servo's jitters went away. The
>diode causes a 1.5 volt drop in the essential bus.
. . . should be closer to 0.9 to 1.0 volts. Which bus powers
the NavAid? Which bus powers the strobes?
>Since the Navaid behaves even when transmitting on either of the Com
>transmitters, I feel my grounding and shielding systems are working fine. I
>have run ground returns parallel and in most cases twisted with the power
>feed for most major power users. Also, most of my grounds tie directly to a
>single point either on the back of the removable instrument panel or the
>nearby canard bulkhead.
This probably isn't a shielding problem but a bus voltage
problem. The last time I worked an issue like this, I discovered
that Nav-Aid chose to ignore or didn't know about the
very good advice in DO-160 and failed to design their product
to be insensitive to bumps in bus voltage. It would be
interesting to see a 'scope trace of the bus voltage going
into the Nav-Aid while while it was having trouble.
If you're seeing this on battery only ops, you might wait until
after you've flown the airplane and the alternator picks up
the bus. If it works okay with the alternator running
then it's not an issue. When you're flying battery only,
you don't want the strobes running until you're getting
close to the destination airport's traffic area whereupon
hand flying the airplane wouldn't be a bid deal.
It may be that your battery is on the tired side to which
exacerbates the problem. Let's see how bad the problem
really is in normal operations before you start hammer-n-
saw'n on the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Jitters |
Boyd C. Braem wrote:
>
> The Navaid likes a very tight voltage range--
*** Yuck. Let me get this straight: a unit that is FLYING YOUR AIRPLANE
will not behave correctly through the entire "normal" range of bus voltages?
Ptooee!
If I had this problem, I'd stick in a voltage regulator. No, not one of
those three-terminal jobbies - they need headroom. In other words, a
three-terminal regulator can only give you maybe seven or eight volts
regulated off of a battery bus. I'd use a switching regulator - something
that takes the variable voltage from the battery bus and regulates it to
a nice tight - whatever exact voltage the thingie wants. Wonder if there's
anything like that out there to buy off the shelf?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
I went through this on my Navaid while trying to test it on battery
power. It didn't work well at all. I called Navaid and was told that the
unit regulates internally to, I think he said, 11 volts and that it
needs headroom to do that. My old battery wasn't even putting out 12
volts. When I hooked up a battery charger, it worked fine at about 13.8
volts. I'm planning to run a SD-8 backup alternator if for no other
reason than to maintain plenty of voltage for the wing leveler (that and
dual electronic ignitions and electric gyro).
Ed Holyoke
Ronnie--
"Jitters" is a common problem with the Navaid and can be caused by
several
different things. However, in your case, I don't think it's grounding
or
shielding, it's probably low voltage.
The Navaid likes a very tight voltage range--I cannot remember the
optimal
voltage, I'd have to call them. I'm assuming that you're doing your
systems
check from battery power. So, right off the bat, you're down from 14.3
V to
12.5 V. Throw in the diodes in the normal switched bus and you're down
to 11.0
V. Turn on the strobes and you could be down to 10.5 V, depending on
your
battery. This will make the Navaid "jitter" Measure the voltage at the
Navaid
terminals when it is "jittering" and then measure the back-up switch bus
voltage
when it's not "jittering"--OR--use a 14 V power supply instead of
battery.
Ronnie Brown wrote:
>
> While checking wiring and systems on my Velocity yesterday, I noticed
that
> the strobes were causing the Navaid autopilot servo to go into the
jitters.
> The Navaid's servo is mounted on the floor near the firewall and only
about
> three feet from the strobe's power supply. Turning the strobes off
stopped
> the problem. My strobes have a single power supply that is mounted in
the
> fuselage and then connects to the wing tips through Wheelen's 3 wire
plus
> shield wiring. My shields are not connected so I connected test leads
to
> the shields and grounded them. No luck.
>
> But, when I switched my essential bus from normal to back up (normal
is fed
> by a 25 amp diode array as suggested by Bob to prevent back feeding
the main
> bus from the essential bus), the autopilot servo's jitters went away.
The
> diode causes a 1.5 volt drop in the essential bus.
>
> Since the Navaid behaves even when transmitting on either of the Com
> transmitters, I feel my grounding and shielding systems are working
fine. I
> have run ground returns parallel and in most cases twisted with the
power
> feed for most major power users. Also, most of my grounds tie
directly to a
> single point either on the back of the removable instrument panel or
the
> nearby canard bulkhead.
>
> Ronnie Brown
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | RE: John Slade - your questions |
>
>> as your power supplies are close to the strobes itself, there is
>> no need for
>> shielded wiring (high voltage) except you might have some antennas routed
>> parallel in the same are, this could have a need. All the other wires are
>> low voltage and should not cause a problem.
>Hello Werner.
>Actually the power supplies will be about 14 feet from the strobes. I spoke
>to Aeroflash and they recommend 3 conductor 18 gauge shielded wire. I found
>some at Great Atlantic www.great-atlantic1.com
>
>
>I still dont quite understand why it's better to feed each light seperately
>from the switch with wire to take the full load of both wingtip lights,
>rather than split the wire at the firewall and use a smaller wire to feed
>each light. Note: Canard Pusher.
>
>Thanks for the input.
>John Slade
>
John,
The problem with using smaller wires to each light is that if the
wire is too small the fuse won't protect it. If you make the fuse
small enough to protect the little wires going to the wing tip
lights, the total system load will cause the fuse to blow. If you
make the fuse big enough so it doesn't blow every time you turn the
nav lights on, then a short in one of the smaller wires could cause
an electrical fire, but the fuse might not blow.
Size the fuse to handle the total system load with enough margin so
you don't get nuisance fuse blows. Then every wire downstream of the
fuse must be big enough so that the fuse will protect the wire.
Make sense?
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (installing engine & electrics)
Ottawa, Canada
http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rv8.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: John Slade - your questions |
> Size the fuse to handle the total system load with enough margin so
> you don't get nuisance fuse blows. Then every wire downstream of the
> fuse must be big enough so that the fuse will protect the wire.
>
> Make sense?
Yes. I should have known that.
Thanks.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT antenna orientation |
>
>
>Konrad,
>
>I just noticed this went to RV-list. I'll fwd to Aeroelectric List and see
>what 'lectric Bob and the other folks have to say.
>
>To explain the thread, Konrad was asking about perhaps more than 1 ELT
>antenna, for higher probability of 1 of them surviving a crash and being
>oriented well enough to be picked up by searchers and satellites.
>
>David Carter
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Konrad Werner" <Connywerner(at)wans.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: RV-List: ELT antenna orientation
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner"
> >
> > Dear David
> > I don't think I ever saw a direct answer to my original question on a
> > possible splitter! One Lister wanted to know what RV-type I was building,
> > but didn't have an answer either. So, I guess I will buy myself a few
>books
> > on the subject, and just read what I can, so I can find my answer. Never
> > hurts to learn something new anyway.
Last article I recall reading in AOPA Pilot about crashes
and ELTs, I seem to recall that the number of "finds" that
were enhanced by the ELT system was a abysmally small
percentage of the total. This means that the odds of
your ELT being a source of salvation are already stacked
against you.
Adding antennas to the system with any notion of improving
"visibility" of your ELT to the rest of the world presumes
that you can predict exactly how your antennas will end
up with respect to the earth and to each other after all
the aluminum is through being crunched. I wouldn't even
know where to begin.
Personally, if someone says I gotta have an ELT or I can't
fly, then I'll have an ELT . . . but I think I'll spend
design and development efforts on improving my odds of
NOT having a crash as opposed attempting an improvement
of the odds AFTER the crash.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Jitters |
>
>Boyd C. Braem wrote:
> >
> > The Navaid likes a very tight voltage range--
>
>*** Yuck. Let me get this straight: a unit that is FLYING YOUR AIRPLANE
>will not behave correctly through the entire "normal" range of bus voltages?
>Ptooee!
You got it.
> If I had this problem, I'd stick in a voltage regulator. No, not one of
>those three-terminal jobbies - they need headroom. In other words, a
>three-terminal regulator can only give you maybe seven or eight volts
>regulated off of a battery bus. I'd use a switching regulator - something
>that takes the variable voltage from the battery bus and regulates it to
>a nice tight - whatever exact voltage the thingie wants. Wonder if there's
>anything like that out there to buy off the shelf?
One could build a switchmode power supply that provides
a constant 14 volts output over an input range of say 9-15
volts . . . or you could buy a TruTrak . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT antenna orientation |
what do you think of the 406 mhz with GPS? I saw a demonstration, they set
one off in the parking lot with NOAA on the cell phone, NOAA had the
lat/long in less than 2 minutes.
>
>
> >
> >
> >Konrad,
> >
> >I just noticed this went to RV-list. I'll fwd to Aeroelectric List and see
> >what 'lectric Bob and the other folks have to say.
> >
> >To explain the thread, Konrad was asking about perhaps more than 1 ELT
> >antenna, for higher probability of 1 of them surviving a crash and being
> >oriented well enough to be picked up by searchers and satellites.
> >
> >David Carter
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Konrad Werner" <Connywerner(at)wans.net>
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: ELT antenna orientation
> >
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner"
> > >
> > > Dear David
> > > I don't think I ever saw a direct answer to my original question on a
> > > possible splitter! One Lister wanted to know what RV-type I was
> building,
> > > but didn't have an answer either. So, I guess I will buy myself a few
> >books
> > > on the subject, and just read what I can, so I can find my answer. Never
> > > hurts to learn something new anyway.
>
> Last article I recall reading in AOPA Pilot about crashes
> and ELTs, I seem to recall that the number of "finds" that
> were enhanced by the ELT system was a abysmally small
> percentage of the total. This means that the odds of
> your ELT being a source of salvation are already stacked
> against you.
>
> Adding antennas to the system with any notion of improving
> "visibility" of your ELT to the rest of the world presumes
> that you can predict exactly how your antennas will end
> up with respect to the earth and to each other after all
> the aluminum is through being crunched. I wouldn't even
> know where to begin.
>
> Personally, if someone says I gotta have an ELT or I can't
> fly, then I'll have an ELT . . . but I think I'll spend
> design and development efforts on improving my odds of
> NOT having a crash as opposed attempting an improvement
> of the odds AFTER the crash.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Jitters |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Yes! Put in a TruTrak Digitrak for the same price and far superior performance.
Their $1495 price for the Digitrak is only an introductory offer that expires
in September so get 'em while you can...
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa (well,actually Montreal this week and next...)
RV-8A (was finishing until my home and garage were flooded last week...)
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Navaid Jitters
>
>Boyd C. Braem wrote:
> >
> > The Navaid likes a very tight voltage range--
>
>*** Yuck. Let me get this straight: a unit that is FLYING YOUR AIRPLANE
>will not behave correctly through the entire "normal" range of bus voltages?
>Ptooee!
You got it.
> If I had this problem, I'd stick in a voltage regulator. No, not one of
>those three-terminal jobbies - they need headroom. In other words, a
>three-terminal regulator can only give you maybe seven or eight volts
>regulated off of a battery bus. I'd use a switching regulator - something
>that takes the variable voltage from the battery bus and regulates it to
>a nice tight - whatever exact voltage the thingie wants. Wonder if there's
>anything like that out there to buy off the shelf?
One could build a switchmode power supply that provides
a constant 14 volts output over an input range of say 9-15
volts . . . or you could buy a TruTrak . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT antenna orientation |
>
>what do you think of the 406 mhz with GPS? I saw a demonstration, they set
>one off in the parking lot with NOAA on the cell phone, NOAA had the
>lat/long in less than 2 minutes.
This is a no-brainer. It's also an example of how
bureaucratic organizational thinking is barely
discernable over the noise. US taxpayer dollars
put up this marvelous navigation system (for
the military and then grudgingly let the folks
who paid for it use it). Virtually none of
the other organizations staffed by "public"
employees picked up on the potential for
future service to the true owners of the system.
10 years ago, I wrote to several folks in the
FAA suggesting that a very simple modification
to the design of an ELT transmitter would
allow an owner to optionally connect a GPS
serial data line to the transmitter. If the
transmitter detected the data, it would
periodically shift from transmission of the
signal characteristic of the current design
and output lat/lon in Morse Code.
Got two responses back . . . all from folks
who outlined how difficult if not impossible
this would be to implement . . . there would
have to be studies made, testing done,
field trials, etc., etc, ad nauseam. One
guy even had the temerity to suggest this
would never work because pilots only knew
the Morse alphabet . . . they couldn't
locate a downed aircraft because they
wouldn't be able to deduce the series
of Morse numbers that described were the
wreckage lay . . .
Like Taillite, any simple suggestion to
government for a quantum jump in service
from a multi-billion dollar system WE paid
for was summarily brushed aside.
However, now that it's government's idea,
guess what? I think it's as good an idea
today as it was 10 years ago.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Narco 850 wiring diagram needed |
Listers,
One of my friends has a Narco 859 transponder with a 15 pin (as opposed
to the 25 pin) connector. He needs a wiring diagram for this unit. Can
anyone help? Please contact me off list.
Charlie Kuss
RV-8A fuselage
Boca Raton, Fl.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT antenna orientation |
>
>
> This is a no-brainer. It's also an example of how
> bureaucratic organizational thinking is barely
> discernable over the noise.
Hi Bob,
This is just the way life is, you know. The inventor of the Xerox copier
was turned down by dozens of non-government corporate bureaucrats. The
auto and airplane were derided as silly ideas till they were
demonstrated. The developer of Fed Express got a poor grade for his thesis
outlining the design of the system.
Railing against bureaucrats is like pissing into the wind, an expression I
learned while growing up in north central Kansas.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | 406MHz and all that |
From: Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT antenna orientation
what do you think of the 406 mhz with GPS? I saw a demonstration, they set
one off in the parking lot with NOAA on the cell phone, NOAA had the
lat/long in less than 2 minutes.
Cheers,
- Which I think begs the question, "which way was the antenna
oriented?"
We had a demonstration [ELTs mandatory here] of the 406MHz
machine with similar results. Unfortunately, despite the upbeat, only 27% of
the real active ELT's saved a life. Some were false, some were already dead,
but most went undiscovered.
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Narco 850 wiring diagram needed |
>
>Listers,
> One of my friends has a Narco 859 transponder with a 15 pin (as opposed
>to the 25 pin) connector. He needs a wiring diagram for this unit. Can
>anyone help?
See:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/temp/Narco_AR850.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 406MHz and all that |
>Cheers,
> - Which I think begs the question, "which way was the antenna
>oriented?"
> We had a demonstration [ELTs mandatory here] of the 406MHz
>machine with similar results. Unfortunately, despite the upbeat, only 27% of
>the real active ELT's saved a life. Some were false, some were already dead,
>but most went undiscovered.
>Ferg
>Europa A064
In this particular demonstration, they threw it on the ground and covered
it with trash.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Warning lights with the LR-3 |
Bob,
I was planning on wiring separate lights for over- and under-voltage conditions
and would like to know how to do this with the LR-3 regulator. In your schematics
(e.g., Z-13), pin 3 on the controller is labelled "OV sense." I assume
this means "over-voltage sensor." This pin is routed through the same light as
pin 5, and both go through a warning light. In this configuation, does the
warning light function as both a low-voltage and over-voltage indicator? Is it
steady for one condition and flashing for the other?
What is the role of pin 2("OV PTT") which is left open in the schematic?
Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
"aeroelectric-list"
| Subject: | Fw: air force using tablet PCs |
Listers,
The article at the link below shows that the Air Force "could be" monitoring
our homebuilt experimental movement [ grin ] . . . well, "is", in fact,
paralleling us in adopting "forward thinking" technological innovations in
the area of low cost, commercial off-the-shelf cockpit moving map+gps
gadgets. It's a good read.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Carter" [ my brother ]
Subject: air force using tablet PCs
>
http://computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,71940,00.html
> ?nlid=PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Warning lights with the LR-3 |
>
>Bob,
>
>I was planning on wiring separate lights for over- and under-voltage
>conditions and would like to know how to do this with the LR-3
>regulator. In your schematics (e.g., Z-13), pin 3 on the controller is
>labelled "OV sense." I assume this means "over-voltage sensor." This pin
>is routed through the same light as pin 5, and both go through a warning
>light. In this configuation, does the warning light function as both a
>low-voltage and over-voltage indicator? Is it steady for one condition
>and flashing for the other?
No. OV sense is for internal use by the regulator only. The
only function of the warning light is to annunciate low
voltage. There is no need to annunciate Over Voltage . . .
within tens of milliseconds of an OV event, the alternator
is shut down which translates immediately to a low
voltage situation.
>
>
>What is the role of pin 2("OV PTT") which is left open in the schematic?
That can be connected to the bus to force a trip of the OV protection.
We used to show a push to test button on the diagrams but people
were getting into the habit of "testing" that circuit on every
flight. This is unnecessarily hard on the circuit breaker.
You can use this pin to test the system every annual . . . or
perhaps every oil change.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 06/13/2002 2:52:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com Richard Riley
writes:
< what do you think of the 406 mhz with GPS? I saw a demonstration, they
set
one off in the parking lot with NOAA on the cell phone, NOAA had the
lat/long in less than 2 minutes.>
6/13/2002
Hello Richard, Have you done any research on being able to purchase such a
unit? In my attempts I came to the conclusion that it was nearly impossible
from both an availability and expense viewpoint.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <bruce.gray(at)snet.net> |
Look at http://www.artex.net. Last year they were around 3k with the GPS
interface another 800 or so.
As a side note, the notice says the satellite coverage for 121.5/243 Htz
ELT's will be turned off in 2009.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
6/13/2002
Hello Richard, Have you done any research on being able to purchase such
a
unit? In my attempts I came to the conclusion that it was nearly
impossible
from both an availability and expense viewpoint.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
>>>No. OV sense is for internal use by the regulator only. The only
function of the warning light is to annunciate low voltage. There is no
need to annunciate Over Voltage . . . within tens of milliseconds of an OV
event, the alternator is shut down which translates immediately to a low
voltage situation. >>>
Thanks for the info. Do you have a recommendation about the best way to
determine whether an alternator out situation is due to alternator failure
or regulator failure? I suppose this really doesn't matter during flight,
but it might be nice to know for debugging purposes.
(BTW, I'm still at the planning stage. If you are developing parts lists
for typical electrical installations, I would certainly look forward to
it...probably good for business too!)
Dan O'Brien
Lancair ES, N624LD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Garner757(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | High noise environment intercom |
Hi Bob,
I have an RV4 which has a very high cockpit noise. I was considering the
noise reduction unit made by FlighTech, which claims to process the
microphone audio to eliminate the background sounds. Have you any feedback
on this unit?
Also PS Engineering has a combination audio selector/intercom, the PMA 4000
which is available with a "high noise" kit. This would be my preference
because of the audio selector feature and my limited panel space. Would you
have any info on these or any other units for the homebuilts?
Thanks!
Mitch Garner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <swedan(at)pcmagic.net> |
| Subject: | Fly Lights (map lights) |
On 6/11/02 There was a discussion of using LED's to provide a map light.
In the March 2110 Kitplanes, there's an article on building LED panel
lighting, as well as a means for converting a cheap 2 battery AA
flashlight to an LED.
My take on a funky way of making a map light independent of the plane's
power system: Wire the flashlight body to be the power supply, and run
wires to the LED. The LED could be mounted at the end of a stalk -
possibly made out of about #6 or larger copper or aluminum house wiring,
so it's stiff enough, but could be repositioned to direct the light
where you want it.
The author said that the flashlight with two AA batteries was bright
enough to light the panel for about 2 weeks. (I'm assuming continuous
duty)
Dan Branstrom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
> >>>No. OV sense is for internal use by the regulator only. The only
>function of the warning light is to annunciate low voltage. There is no
>need to annunciate Over Voltage . . . within tens of milliseconds of an OV
>event, the alternator is shut down which translates immediately to a low
>voltage situation. >>>
>
>Thanks for the info. Do you have a recommendation about the best way to
>determine whether an alternator out situation is due to alternator failure
>or regulator failure? I suppose this really doesn't matter during flight,
>but it might be nice to know for debugging purposes.
You need to have the remote field voltage test point
for your alternator (See Figure Z-23).
>(BTW, I'm still at the planning stage. If you are developing parts lists
>for typical electrical installations, I would certainly look forward to
>it...probably good for business too!)
Just published a list for another list-server reader
in the past couple of days that would procure about 90%
of the parts needed to wire a single engine airplane.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net> |
Take a look at
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=108234&outlet
for a boating unit for $1100. I have a couple of old 121 ELT's, I'm
figuring on using a G switch from one of them and hacking it into a marine
one.
>
>Look at http://www.artex.net. Last year they were around 3k with the GPS
>interface another 800 or so.
>
>As a side note, the notice says the satellite coverage for 121.5/243 Htz
>ELT's will be turned off in 2009.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>6/13/2002
>
>Hello Richard, Have you done any research on being able to purchase such
>a
>unit? In my attempts I came to the conclusion that it was nearly
>impossible
>from both an availability and expense viewpoint.
>
>'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fly Lights (map lights) |
I just bought a red "Photon II" LED keychain light with an on/off switch
(in addition to the pressure on switch) and glued it to my headset with RTV.
>
>On 6/11/02 There was a discussion of using LED's to provide a map light.
>
>In the March 2110 Kitplanes, there's an article on building LED panel
>lighting, as well as a means for converting a cheap 2 battery AA
>flashlight to an LED.
>
>My take on a funky way of making a map light independent of the plane's
>power system: Wire the flashlight body to be the power supply, and run
>wires to the LED. The LED could be mounted at the end of a stalk -
>possibly made out of about #6 or larger copper or aluminum house wiring,
>so it's stiff enough, but could be repositioned to direct the light
>where you want it.
>
>The author said that the flashlight with two AA batteries was bright
>enough to light the panel for about 2 weeks. (I'm assuming continuous
>duty)
>
>Dan Branstrom
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <bruce.gray(at)snet.net> |
I had a long talk with Artex today and they have a new GA 3 frequency
ELT for 1,750 msrp. The GPS ARINC 429 interface is still some what
pricey at 1,500. They're working on getting their prices down.
Regarding your marine ELT. Don't our ELT's have to meet TSO C91a
certification? Don't be surprised if the FAA mandates TSO C406 (406MHtz)
in a few years.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Riley
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 406 MHz ELT
Take a look at
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr
=201&prrfnbr=108234&outlet
for a boating unit for $1100. I have a couple of old 121 ELT's, I'm
figuring on using a G switch from one of them and hacking it into a
marine
one.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AK-350 encoder |
>
>Does anyone have the pinout for an Ameri-King AK-350 Altitude Encoder? I
>need to hook it up to a Narco AT-50A.
The AK-350 has the same wiring as several other encoders.
I published this drawing at:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/temp/Narco_AR850.pdf
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg(at)iafrica.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AK-350 encoder |
Thanks Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AK-350 encoder
>
> >
> >Does anyone have the pinout for an Ameri-King AK-350 Altitude Encoder? I
> >need to hook it up to a Narco AT-50A.
>
> The AK-350 has the same wiring as several other encoders.
> I published this drawing at:
>
> http://209.134.106.21/articles/temp/Narco_AR850.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
> | discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net> |
>I had a long talk with Artex today and they have a new GA 3 frequency
>ELT for 1,750 msrp. The GPS ARINC 429 interface is still some what
>pricey at 1,500. They're working on getting their prices down.
>
>Regarding your marine ELT. Don't our ELT's have to meet TSO C91a
>certification? Don't be surprised if the FAA mandates TSO C406 (406MHtz)
>in a few years.
Yeah, but until then If I'm really worried about the FAA mandate I can
carry a certified aviation 121.5 unit as well. Of course, I flew for 10
years without any ELT (not my idea, long story) so I figure one that has
real shot at doing the job is my primary concern.
If and when they mandate C406 the price will have fallen to a more
reasonable level. There's no reason they should be more than a few dollars
more than 121.5 units, GPS chipsets and antennas are only a couple of bucks
at oem.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | List Browsing Feature! |
Dear Listers,
I thought I'd post a little reminder to everyone about a very slick feature
of the email Lists here at Matronics. You can now use Netscape or Internet
Explorer to browse the current messages on your favorite List! The List
Browse Function tracks the current 7 day's worth of List messages for any
given List. Indexes are updated every 30 minutes with new messages that
have been posted. You can resort the message indexes by Thread, Subject,
Author, or Date and easily track and find current threads.
A number of List members have written to say that they love the List
Browser because they can keep tabs on the latest List messages throughout
the day without having to constantly check their email or wait for the
Digest issue to come out.
You can check out the List Browse Feature by going to the following URL and
clicking on the List of your choice:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Brooks" <kdbrv8r(at)charter.net> |
KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
> Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators,
but a
> single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be
plugged
> in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or
in your
> car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small
10 to
> 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
>
*** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
From personal experience, the "start your car" sticks don't work. I'd
recommend another method. I left the dome light on in my car overnight
and the "start stick" didn't even make the starter "click."
Ken Brooks
No. Illinois RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith Bedell" <bedelk(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | XDP4000X-List: unhappy |
All-
I hooked up my xdp-4000x and it sounds like crap. I ordered the necessary cable
from online and tried to tune it, but it just got worse. Is there something missing
htat I need to do to get it to work. When I bypass it with rca splitters
the res of my system works like a charm. I have the 6001ES running three 10'
ES subs. Then 2 1805 ES's handling everything else. Aside from the problems with
the 4x, there is a huge disparity between cd volume and radio volume. I mean
huge!!!. I can max out radio volume and it sounds ok, then pop in a cd and
half way blows mee out of the cab. Any ideas, I anm just so dissapointed right
now....
From: Matt Dralle <DRALLE(at)MATRONICS.COM>
Reply-To: xdp4000x-list(at)matronics.com
To: Email-Lists(at)matronics.com
Subject: XDP4000X-List: List Browsing Feature!
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:52:33 -0700
-- XDP4000X-List message posted by: Matt Dralle
Dear Listers,
I thought I'd post a little reminder to everyone about a very slick feature
of the email Lists here at Matronics. You can now use Netscape or Internet
Explorer to browse the current messages on your favorite List! The List
Browse Function tracks the current 7 day's worth of List messages for any
given List. Indexes are updated every 30 minutes with new messages that
have been posted. You can resort the message indexes by Thread, Subject,
Author, or Date and easily track and find current threads.
A number of List members have written to say that they love the List
Browser because they can keep tabs on the latest List messages throughout
the day without having to constantly check their email or wait for the
Digest issue to come out.
You can check out the List Browse Feature by going to the following URL and
clicking on the List of your choice:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Jitters |
I am planning the following. Is it a mistake?
A strobe power supply in the fuselage feeding strobes on each wing.
A Navaid servo half way up the wing.
The signals and power for the Navaid and the power pulses for the strobes
will travel in a common conduit together with the power for the wingtip
lights.
Is the Navaid going to fall over if I feed it the correct voltage.
Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Jitters |
>
>
>I am planning the following. Is it a mistake?
>
>A strobe power supply in the fuselage feeding strobes on each wing.
>A Navaid servo half way up the wing.
>
>The signals and power for the Navaid and the power pulses for the strobes
>will travel in a common conduit together with the power for the wingtip
>lights.
>
>Is the Navaid going to fall over if I feed it the correct voltage.
My sense is that the NavAid is no more sensitive to transient
noises coupled from wire bundle to wire bundle than any
other accessory. Its problems manifest themselves when the
supply voltage drops below levels that more robust
designs would tolerate. If you're running battery
only, you probably don't want to waste good energy
flashing the lights.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Backup Battery |
>
>KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
> > Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators,
>but a
> > single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be
>plugged
> > in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or
>in your
> > car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small
>10 to
> > 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
> >
>*** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
> From personal experience, the "start your car" sticks don't work. I'd
>recommend another method. I left the dome light on in my car overnight
>and the "start stick" didn't even make the starter "click."
A "start stick" is not a "charge stick" . . . If we peek at
http://www.startstick.com/Products.html
. . . we find that all of the products offered by this manufacturer
are 12v batteries . . . you can charge them from a cigar lighter
IF and ONLY IF the alternator is on line and producing 13.8 to
14.6 volts.
If you want to transfer significant energy from a portable
battery plugged into the cigar lighter, you would need
to add perhaps 2 more cells to the makeup of the device.
http://www.rotorhub.com/resource/products/ground.htm#
has a link at the top of the page which takes you to
an illustration of the aviation grade startsticks
by advanced technology products. Note that they
speak of robust ground power connections for airplanes
that give you high current access to the aircraft
electrical system.
Incidentally, in a quick websearch for "bolder" and "tmf"
I found a LOT of folks praising the technology and
saying glowing things about the future . . . but
boldertmf.com (the old Bolder website) seems to
be off the net. I didn't have time to search all
the links but I couldn't find any websites that
speak to the manufacture of the cells used in
startstick and similar products. I'm not sure they're
still in business.
Bob . . .
http://www.industryweek.com/CurrentArticles/asp/articles.asp?ArticleID=346
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Backup Battery |
>
>
> >
> >KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
> > > Has anyone considered an all-electric airplane with dual alternators,
> >but a
> > > single battery with a cockpit mounted emergency battery than can be
> >plugged
> > > in to some kind of access port? You could keep it charged at home or
> >in your
> > > car and take it with you in the plane when flying. It could be a small
> >10 to
> > > 20 amp gel cell or even lithium or ni-cads.
> > >
> >*** Or one of those little "start your car" sticks they're selling....
> >
> > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
> >
> > From personal experience, the "start your car" sticks don't work. I'd
> >recommend another method. I left the dome light on in my car overnight
> >and the "start stick" didn't even make the starter "click."
> A "start stick" is not a "charge stick" . . . If we peek at
> http://www.startstick.com/Products.html
>
> . . . we find that all of the products offered by this manufacturer
> are 12v batteries . . . you can charge them from a cigar lighter
> IF and ONLY IF the alternator is on line and producing 13.8 to
> 14.6 volts.
Gee Jerry, got my tongue tangled around my eyeteeth and
couldn't see what you were saying. Don't know how I got
the impression that you were trying to charge the car's
battery through your cigar lighter . . .
I think I latched onto an image of another "glove box
salvation" product that was about the same size as
a start stick but was intended to put enough snort back
into a dead battery to crank the engine. I think this
WAS a 16v battery pack.
What you may well have experienced is what Bill at
B&C told me a couple of years ago. He showed me a
12V array of the Bolder TMF cells about 7-8 years
ago . . . just before we launched for OSH. He put
them on the battery tester out in the shop and the
little critters would dump out 400+ amps at Bill's
8.5V test load. Truly amazing.
Some years later when I asked him about the TMF
cells, he told me that they weren't doing well.
His samples went south pretty quickly. Just about
then, I found www.boldertmf.com and I approached
the factory about the current state of their
technology. They assured me that all the problems
were solved . . . but they were reluctant to send
me samples for Raytheon to evaluate for our
targets production (we still use the original
Gates jelly-roll cells in our MQM-107 and
Super-MQM targets).
Some time later, the Secure Start started
showing up at places like Sears. I think I
even saw them in a Walmart store somewhere too.
I don't see them around any more nor is their
website up and running . . . although LOTS
of folks still offer and/or talk about the
TMF batteries on their websites.
Soooo . . . methinks what you've described may
be further indication that Bolder hasn't
solved the problems and may have tossed in
the towel.
Bob . . .
Confucious says, "Boot logic processor
before putting keyboard on line."
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fly Lights up date |
Just an update, I had to upgrade some software so while I was ordering I
added two flylights to the order, (15.95 Mac connection) one red and one
blue. They are nicely made and have aluminum ends with plastic lenses over
the LED. I wired up some USB ports and a 5 volt power supply and shazam
little movable lights. Their going to look great in the center overhead
support on my Europa. A couple modified fuse holders and the shafts snap up,
out of the way, in their little recess I'm making in the overhead.
Is a USB plug the number one choice for this application? Probably not. But
with at least three different manufactures of different types of USB lights.
I think off the shelf, plug and play is the way to go.
SteveD.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Material list & board (low voltage warn) |
Bob,
To refresh your memory, down below is a correspondence just before
your trip out West. I'm still interested in it. Do you have anything
for sale yet?
Thanks, Tom Barnes
>List,
> I would like to build the low voltage warning device that is
>detailed in Bob's download section of the AEC. Can someone tell me if
>there is a write-up that goes with the schematic; I can't fine
anything.
>And secondly, if someone has a parts list in Digikey part numbers, I'd
>sure like a copy of it.
Won't have time to complete it before we hop on the
big iron bird in the morning . . . I've got a BOM and
bare-board offer for DIY'ers along with some instructions
that I'll publish when I get back. Got the stuff on the
laptop and might get it finished while on trip.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
Guys -
I need a 5 amp C.B. for the S704-1 alternator O.V. relay feed shown
in figure Z-16 of the AeroElectric Connection Appendix Z. Is the
Potter & Brumfield W23X1A1G5 listed in Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
the one I want? Is this the type C.B. that can be opened by pulling
on it?
Any info re source, type, or otherwise is much appreciated.
Thank you -
Bill Mills
RANS Courier in progress
SF bay area, Calif.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:backup battery |
I did not mean that the battery should be able to start the engine. Merely to
continue the flight until able to land at a desired airport.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: RST audio panel |
Hello,
I have access to a nice BNC installation tool. It says it is for
RG58/59/62 coax. Will this work ok with RG400?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: BNC installation tool? |
>
>
>Hello,
>
>I have access to a nice BNC installation tool. It says it is for
>RG58/59/62 coax. Will this work ok with RG400?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gary Liming
Probably. It depends with some degree on the connector.
The connectors we sell use a .213" hex die for the
shield crimp and a .064" hex die for the center
conductor. I've found that our tools work with most
BNC connectors for RG-58, RG-142 and RG-400.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: circuit breaker |
>
>
>Guys -
>
>I need a 5 amp C.B. for the S704-1 alternator O.V. relay feed shown
>in figure Z-16 of the AeroElectric Connection Appendix Z. Is the
>Potter & Brumfield W23X1A1G5 listed in Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
>the one I want? Is this the type C.B. that can be opened by pulling
>on it?
>Any info re source, type, or otherwise is much appreciated.
This breaker will work well as will about any
5A circuit protection device.
Actually, normal current that flows in the breaker
on Figure Z-16 is very much less than 5A . . you could
use a smaller device . . . say 2A if you wish. I called
out 5A because the price of some brands of breaker
in the smaller sizes is higher.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: circuit breaker |
>
> This breaker will work well as will about any
> 5A circuit protection device.
>
> Actually, normal current that flows in the breaker
> on Figure Z-16 is very much less than 5A . . you could
> use a smaller device . . . say 2A if you wish. I called
> out 5A because the price of some brands of breaker
> in the smaller sizes is higher.
>
> Bob . . .
Thank you Bob -
I noticed the price difference - I'll spring for the extra $7 get the
2A breaker.
Bill Mills
RANS Courier in progress
SF bay area, Calif.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: High noise environment intercom |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I have an RV4 which has a very high cockpit noise. I was considering the
>noise reduction unit made by FlighTech, which claims to process the
>microphone audio to eliminate the background sounds. Have you any feedback
>on this unit?
I've not heard any comments particular to this product.
>Also PS Engineering has a combination audio selector/intercom, the PMA 4000
>which is available with a "high noise" kit. This would be my preference
>because of the audio selector feature and my limited panel space. Would you
>have any info on these or any other units for the homebuilts?
Sorry . . . a chapter on audio systems is planned for the
'Connection . . . but in the future. You might try putting your
question out on the rec.aviation.homebuilt group of Usenet . . .
You might also want to check the periodicals archive at a
local library. Some December or Jan issues will index product
reviews for the past year. Visit websites of your various
considered choices. Ask them for places to get published product
reviews. If they're proud of them, they'll tell you just where
to find 'em. If they "don't have reviews to recommend" then
they're either NOT proud of the piece or haven't been in the
marketplace long enough to have attracted reviews. EITHER
condition is cause for concern.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Blocked Antenna??? |
I'm asking this for a friend who is somewhat 'computer challenged'. He
has a Tri-gear Glastar (Composite Fuselage) with the transponder antenna
mounted on the belly on the centerline of the fuselage. The problem is
that when he is returning to out home field (with class C airspace) the
controllers report that the transponder is either not being received or
is intermittent. This does not happen when leaving, nor if the aircraft
is turned 10-15 degrees from being pointed directly at the airport.
We surmise that the nose gear strut is blocking the signal directly
forward of the antenna. Does this make sense?
Thanks for the comments.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
I need to run 3 coax cables (RG400) to the rear fuseleage - Com, Xponder,
and ELT. Any problem bundling these together? Any problem bundling them
with power for lights, etc?
Thanks
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax bundling |
No problem... Coaxial cable was developed during the second world war for
the purpose of running radio signals throughout the structure of airplanes
while laying against the metal and against each other... You ought to see
the bundle of over 30 coax cables entering my ham shack through a 6 inch
pipe through the wall of the building...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Liming" <gary(at)liming.org>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Coax bundling
>
>
> I need to run 3 coax cables (RG400) to the rear fuseleage - Com, Xponder,
> and ELT. Any problem bundling these together? Any problem bundling them
> with power for lights, etc?
>
> Thanks
>
> Gary Liming
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Blocked Antenna??? |
>
>
>I'm asking this for a friend who is somewhat 'computer challenged'. He
>has a Tri-gear Glastar (Composite Fuselage) with the transponder antenna
>mounted on the belly on the centerline of the fuselage. The problem is
>that when he is returning to out home field (with class C airspace) the
>controllers report that the transponder is either not being received or
>is intermittent. This does not happen when leaving, nor if the aircraft
>is turned 10-15 degrees from being pointed directly at the airport.
>
>We surmise that the nose gear strut is blocking the signal directly
>forward of the antenna. Does this make sense?
Things sticking out of the belly of the airplane in
proximity to the transponder antenna do indeed have
some influence on the radiation pattern of the antenna.
However, if the offending structures are one wavelength
or more distant from the transponder antenna (1 wavelength
at 1000 MHz is 4x the height of the antenna . . .
about 12"), then these effects are quite minimal.
I suspect a low power output from the transponder and/or
problem with the antenna and feedline. A quick bench
test of the transponder for output power is in order. Then
have the SWR of the antenna installation tested.
Unless the folks that control the class C airspace
are sitting in some very remote location, the poorest
performing transponder/antenna installation should be
able to talk to their radar site. This is what leads
me to believe that the system you're citing has
a serious problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Blocked Antenna??? |
Another thought: wipe the oil film off the radiating element and see what
happens. Sitting where it is, it's bound to be picking up some oil from the
engine compartment.
This always helped my RV installation work better. I am hopeful that
relocating the antenna to a covered location (inside a sealed compartment in
the aft section of a wheel pant) will permanently solve the problem of
degraded antenna performance.
-Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Switch for elec fuel pump |
I have installed an Air Flow Performance Electric fuel boost pump. The
pump will draw 5A at 12VDC. The installation instructions specify a 7A
to 10A circuit breaker and 16 gauge wire. My question regards the
Is this switch adequate or should I look for a higher rated switch?
Charlie
RV-6A N11CB (Res.)
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Blocked Antenna??? |
>
>Another thought: wipe the oil film off the radiating element and see what
>happens. Sitting where it is, it's bound to be picking up some oil from the
>engine compartment.
>
>This always helped my RV installation work better.
This is interesting, as I am about to mount my xponder antenna somewhat in
the exhaust path. I am not challenging the experience reported, but is
there any other evidence that confirms an oil film will block or distort a
xponder signal?
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Blocked Antenna??? |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm asking this for a friend who is somewhat 'computer challenged'. He
> >has a Tri-gear Glastar (Composite Fuselage) with the transponder antenna
> >mounted on the belly on the centerline of the fuselage. The problem is
> >that when he is returning to out home field (with class C airspace) the
> >controllers report that the transponder is either not being received or
> >is intermittent. This does not happen when leaving, nor if the aircraft
>
> I suspect a low power output from the transponder and/or
> problem with the antenna and feedline. A quick bench
> test of the transponder for output power is in order. Then
> have the SWR of the antenna installation tested.
>
*** Another possibility is weak receive. If the transponder can't hear
the tower, it won't answer. This happened to me a few weeks ago. I
had the local avionics shop look at it, they realigned the receiver, and
all was well. A symptom was that the transponder lamp didn't come on very
much.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Protection for alternator field circuit and ammeter |
Drawing Z24 shows how to add an OV protection module
for an internally regulated power supply.
It requires the use of a 5A circuit breaker and also
of a fuselink attached to the main connection of the
main bus.
The question: Can we replace the fuselink by using
one of the outputs on the main bus protected by a
larger fuse (say 15amps)? I would like for sure the
breaker to let go before the fuse.
On another subject, I will be using an ampere-meter,
but I don't know where to connect the shunt. Some of
the Z diagrams indicate where to install a load-meter
which would provide load information for the
alternator only when it is functioning. An
ampere-meter provides + and - amperes to/from the
battery (I suppose). With a dual-battery/battery bus
installation, it seems there is no single place where
it would make sense to put the ampere-meter. If I
install it between the battery contactors and the
alternator/main bus, it won't measure the load for the
ignitions/fuel pumps/essential bus when on alternate
feed to e-Bus.
Michel
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Blocked Antenna??? |
>
> >
> >Another thought: wipe the oil film off the radiating element and see what
> >happens. Sitting where it is, it's bound to be picking up some oil from the
> >engine compartment.
> >
> >This always helped my RV installation work better.
>
>This is interesting, as I am about to mount my xponder antenna somewhat in
>the exhaust path. I am not challenging the experience reported, but is
>there any other evidence that confirms an oil film will block or distort a
>xponder signal?
Any coating that contains conductive (soot) or enhances
the sticking of airborne particles is going to degrade
performance of the antenna . . . however, unless one
routinely allows belly-crud to layer up for months
of flying, it isn't likely that this source of contamination
is going to have measurable effect.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch for elec fuel pump |
>
>
>I have installed an Air Flow Performance Electric fuel boost pump. The
>pump will draw 5A at 12VDC. The installation instructions specify a 7A
>to 10A circuit breaker and 16 gauge wire. My question regards the
>Is this switch adequate or should I look for a higher rated switch?
the switch you've selected will be fine. See:
http://209.134.106.21/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Light Flashing Circuit |
Howdy Listers,
I have been considering constructing my own microcontroller based lamp
flashing system for my RV. I was thinking about putting some filament
warming logic in the system to cut down on those high inrush currents that
are generated because the filament is cold. Would a PWM signal that ramped
up from near zero duty cycle to 100% duty cycle over a time period of a
second or two do the trick? It seems to me that the inrush current would
still be high on those first input pulses if the load was purely resistive.
Obviously the load is probably has a little capacitance in it but how much?
What say ye experts could I use a PWM to warm up a filament?
Also how would a halogen bulb and an incandescent bulb differ in their
reaction to this system?
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
http://www.myrv7.com
Fuselage
Airplanes never win battles with the ground. The best the airplane can hope
for is a draw.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Laurence <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
Phil,
check out this site: http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0003/KP0003.htm
"
>
> Howdy Listers,
>
> I have been considering constructing my own microcontroller based lamp
> flashing system for my RV. I was thinking about putting some filament
> warming logic in the system to cut down on those high inrush currents that
> are generated because the filament is cold. Would a PWM signal that
ramped
> up from near zero duty cycle to 100% duty cycle over a time period of a
> second or two do the trick? It seems to me that the inrush current would
> still be high on those first input pulses if the load was purely
resistive.
> Obviously the load is probably has a little capacitance in it but how
much?
> What say ye experts could I use a PWM to warm up a filament?
>
> Also how would a halogen bulb and an incandescent bulb differ in their
> reaction to this system?
>
> Godspeed,
>
> Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
> http://www.myrv7.com
> Fuselage
>
> Airplanes never win battles with the ground. The best the airplane can
hope
> for is a draw.
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
>
>Phil,
>
>check out this site: http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0003/KP0003.htm
>
>"
> >
> > Howdy Listers,
> >
> > I have been considering constructing my own microcontroller based lamp
> > flashing system for my RV. I was thinking about putting some filament
> > warming logic in the system to cut down on those high inrush currents that
> > are generated because the filament is cold. Would a PWM signal that
>ramped
> > up from near zero duty cycle to 100% duty cycle over a time period of a
> > second or two do the trick? It seems to me that the inrush current would
> > still be high on those first input pulses if the load was purely
>resistive.
The mass of a high power lamp filament is so great that it
does not have time to cool into the realm of high inrush before
the next pulse comes along in your wig-wag circuit. So only
the initial surge at first turn-on is really significant.
The only place I've found keep-warm to be really useful
is to improve the life of 1950's technology sealed-beam
lamps originally incorporated in most certified ships.
Modern halogens have very high inrush too . . . but they're
so much more robust than the certified products, keep warm
isn't worth the effort. If it were my airplane, modern automotive
halogens would be used on the wings and keep-warm circuits
chucked into the trash can along with the sealed-beams.
> > Obviously the load is probably has a little capacitance in it but how
>much?
Actually, inductive and measured in nanohenries . . . not
significant.
> > What say ye experts could I use a PWM to warm up a filament?
> >
> > Also how would a halogen bulb and an incandescent bulb differ in their
> > reaction to this system?
Both are incandescent lamps. Originally lamps ran in a mostly
nitrogen atmosphere. Operating temperature was a trade off
between light output and life . . . tungsten evaporates
at normal lamp operating temperatures. As the lamp ages,
it becomes thinner and more fragile, the inside of the
glass becomes clouded with a film of condensed tungsten.
Here's an interesting history of the incandescent lamp.
http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://invsee.asu.edu/Modules/lightbulb/meathist.htm
Halogens came along and figured out a way to make tungsten
vapors re-deposit on the filament. The result was to allow the
lamp to operate at higher temperatures without sacrificing
life. The bulb's efficiency goes up at higher operating
temperatures and the life is extended as well.
In the interest of low cost of ownership, minimized parts
count and ease of installation, lamps like
http://209.134.106.21/4352.jpg
are particularly attractive to me. These 55W critters
work nicely in leading edge installations and may well
run the lifetime of the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Protection for alternator field circuit |
and ammeter
>
>Drawing Z24 shows how to add an OV protection module
>for an internally regulated power supply.
>
>It requires the use of a 5A circuit breaker and also
>of a fuselink attached to the main connection of the
>main bus.
>
>The question: Can we replace the fuselink by using
>one of the outputs on the main bus protected by a
>larger fuse (say 15amps)? I would like for sure the
>breaker to let go before the fuse.
Some 5A breakers will open a 15A fuse. Fuses
are MUCH faster than breakers. This is why
I prefer the fusible link in this slot.
>On another subject, I will be using an ampere-meter,
>but I don't know where to connect the shunt. Some of
>the Z diagrams indicate where to install a load-meter
>which would provide load information for the
>alternator only when it is functioning.
Yup . . .
> An
>ampere-meter provides + and - amperes to/from the
>battery (I suppose). With a dual-battery/battery bus
>installation, it seems there is no single place where
>it would make sense to put the ampere-meter. If I
>install it between the battery contactors and the
>alternator/main bus, it won't measure the load for the
>ignitions/fuel pumps/essential bus when on alternate
>feed to e-Bus.
Loadmeters only read 0 to some value either in AMPS
full scale (or in the case of the ones I sell, 0-100%
of alternator output).
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/instrmnt/loadvolt.jpg
. . . . . If you're down to battery only
operations, the need for an ammeter (which was small
to begin with) goes to zero . . . you should plan
in advance and KNOW what things you can leave running
in order to achieve what ever endurance you've chosen
for yourself with battery only operations.
For myself, a "30-minute 'emergency' battery" is just
that . . . a battery that is incapable of preventing
an emergency in all cases. A lightly loaded battery
of known condition will allow you to comfortably
use all fuel aboard so that if you're going to have
an "emergency" it ain't gonna happen 'cause the
panel went dark.
Given that the loads under battery only ops are
predicted, the ammeter is unnecessary. It is,
however, a useful tool for assessing the health
of the alternator and trouble shooting the system
when things are not behaving as you wish.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | IFR GPS for homebuilts |
6/17/2002
Hello Fellow Builders, I have touched on this subject before and I would very
gingerly like to raise it again.
Below is the URL for an article on AVWEB (taken from Aviation Consumer) that
discusses in some detail the subject of installing / upgrading to an IFR
capable GPS in a type certificated aircraft. The sidebar and the letters
responding to the article are also of value.
<<http://www.avweb.com/articles/ifrgps/index.html>>
It is evident that there is considerable effort / paperwork involved in such
an installation / upgrade. (Unfortunately the article fails to reference AC
20-138 that also pertains to this subject.)
Here is my interest. I have a Garmin GNS 430 and an Apollo SL-30 in the
instument panel of my plane under construction. I also have a separate CDI
and a select switch to send either GNS 430 or SL-30 data to that CDI.
When it comes time to have this airplane inspected / certified by the FAA
what hoops will I have to jump through to attain IFR enroute, terminal, and
approach capable certification / approval for my amateur built experimental
plane?
If anyone has any first hand experience / info on this subject I would
appreciate it if you would share it with all of us. Thank you.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
>
>6/17/2002
>
>Hello Fellow Builders, I have touched on this subject before and I would very
>gingerly like to raise it again.
>
>Below is the URL for an article on AVWEB (taken from Aviation Consumer) that
>discusses in some detail the subject of installing / upgrading to an IFR
>capable GPS in a type certificated aircraft. The sidebar and the letters
>responding to the article are also of value.
>
><<http://www.avweb.com/articles/ifrgps/index.html>>
>
>It is evident that there is considerable effort / paperwork involved in such
>an installation / upgrade. (Unfortunately the article fails to reference AC
>20-138 that also pertains to this subject.)
>
>Here is my interest. I have a Garmin GNS 430 and an Apollo SL-30 in the
>instument panel of my plane under construction. I also have a separate CDI
>and a select switch to send either GNS 430 or SL-30 data to that CDI.
>
>When it comes time to have this airplane inspected / certified by the FAA
>what hoops will I have to jump through to attain IFR enroute, terminal, and
>approach capable certification / approval for my amateur built experimental
>plane?
Fly off the hours needed to get your airplane cut loose
on the world. When that's signed off, go out and
fly a bunch of different approaches at as many facilities
and exercising the full gamut of techniques using your
equipment as installed. Demonstrate to yourself that it
works as it is supposed to. Make a notation in the log
what you've done and call it fit to fly.
There's a lot of paperwork for certified
ships but my sources here tell me that once you've got
your basic hours flown off in a homebuilt, nobody has
much of an interest in what you do with it after that
(unless you INVITE them to have an interest).
When it comes to satisfying ANYBODY that you, your
airplane and the equipment installed are qualified to
go bore holes in the fog, you need to be your own worst
critic. A rubber stamp has yet to make anything work
better.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank and Dorothy <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
At 04:37 18/06/2002, you wrote:
>
>I have been considering constructing my own microcontroller based lamp
>flashing system for my RV.
Phil,
A microcontroller would be overkill for this.
I bought a kit from Dick Smith (similar to your Radio Shack) which does
almost what I want. A bit of hacking and patching and it would be there.
You can also buy a kit from Bob Hahn on the RV-list for IIRC US$60.
But, being a bit of a tinkerer, I looked into designing my own... mine
would have not only an alternating wig-wag flash, but also a 'simultaneous'
flash so that both landing lights flash on/off together. I figure that that
would be visible from further away. A handful of logic gates will do the
job, or else one 32x2bit EPROM. Can you buy a 32x2 EPROM???
Frank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Light Flashing Circuit
> In the interest of low cost of ownership, minimized parts
> count and ease of installation, lamps like
>
> http://209.134.106.21/4352.jpg
>
> are particularly attractive to me. These 55W critters
> work nicely in leading edge installations and may well
> run the lifetime of the airplane.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Hello Bob,
does this part has an order number and manufacturer and does
also a round one exist (need one for the cowling).
Many thanks
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
I understand there are radio shops and then there are radio shops that are
members of a trade group that have set up an "approved" paper package for
IFR GPS. This cuts down the wait and the cost.
----- Original Message -----
From: <BAKEROCB(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: IFR GPS for homebuilts
6/17/2002
Hello Fellow Builders, I have touched on this subject before and I would
very
gingerly like to raise it again.
Below is the URL for an article on AVWEB (taken from Aviation Consumer) that
discusses in some detail the subject of installing / upgrading to an IFR
capable GPS in a type certificated aircraft. The sidebar and the letters
responding to the article are also of value.
<<http://www.avweb.com/articles/ifrgps/index.html>>
It is evident that there is considerable effort / paperwork involved in such
an installation / upgrade. (Unfortunately the article fails to reference AC
20-138 that also pertains to this subject.)
Here is my interest. I have a Garmin GNS 430 and an Apollo SL-30 in the
instument panel of my plane under construction. I also have a separate CDI
and a select switch to send either GNS 430 or SL-30 data to that CDI.
When it comes time to have this airplane inspected / certified by the FAA
what hoops will I have to jump through to attain IFR enroute, terminal, and
approach capable certification / approval for my amateur built experimental
plane?
If anyone has any first hand experience / info on this subject I would
appreciate it if you would share it with all of us. Thank you.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
You're right a microcontroller is overkill but I was planning a PICMicro uC
which is a one chip solution (including the oscillator) to drive the
circuit. This could eliminate several discrete components. It would be
fairly simple with a 555 and a hex inverter but that is two chips and the
PICMicro is one chip. Plus I am really looking for a project that will help
me learn the PICMicro a little better so overkill is okay because I have an
educational motive
So far I have this circuit down to three main components. A PICMicro
PIC12XXX and two IR IPS521's. The IPS521 is an intellegent MOSFET high side
power switch from International Rectifier that would eliminate the need for
me to fabricate the driver circuitry for the MOSFET. It also has internal
overcurrent and overtemperature protection with feedback when it shuts down.
Obviously there are a few caps and resistors as well.
That brings me to another question. Could I detect lamp failure by simply
putting the inputs of a comparator accross the source and drain of the
IPS521. It shows to have an Rds of 60 mOhm. This would be about 0.3 V
accross the thing (for a 55W bulb). I am new to electronics and I am still
trying to learn things like this.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
http://www.myrv7.com
Fuselage
Airplanes never win battles with the ground. The best the airplane can hope
for is a draw.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank and Dorothy" <frankv(at)infogen.net.nz>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Light Flashing Circuit
>
> At 04:37 18/06/2002, you wrote:
> >
> >I have been considering constructing my own microcontroller based lamp
> >flashing system for my RV.
>
> Phil,
> A microcontroller would be overkill for this.
>
> I bought a kit from Dick Smith (similar to your Radio Shack) which does
> almost what I want. A bit of hacking and patching and it would be there.
>
> You can also buy a kit from Bob Hahn on the RV-list for IIRC US$60.
>
> But, being a bit of a tinkerer, I looked into designing my own... mine
> would have not only an alternating wig-wag flash, but also a
'simultaneous'
> flash so that both landing lights flash on/off together. I figure that
that
> would be visible from further away. A handful of logic gates will do the
> job, or else one 32x2bit EPROM. Can you buy a 32x2 EPROM???
>
> Frank.
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> <<http://www.avweb.com/articles/ifrgps/index.html>>
>
> It is evident that there is considerable effort / paperwork involved in such
> an installation / upgrade. (Unfortunately the article fails to reference AC
> 20-138 that also pertains to this subject.)
>
> Here is my interest. I have a Garmin GNS 430 and an Apollo SL-30 in the
> instument panel of my plane under construction. I also have a separate CDI
> and a select switch to send either GNS 430 or SL-30 data to that CDI.
>
> When it comes time to have this airplane inspected / certified by the FAA
> what hoops will I have to jump through to attain IFR enroute, terminal, and
> approach capable certification / approval for my amateur built experimental
> plane?
>
> If anyone has any first hand experience / info on this subject I would
> appreciate it if you would share it with all of us. Thank you.
>
*** Hi OC,
I did this. I installed a GNS430 in my Sundowner, and got it approved
IFR. I did all the paperwork. Basically, the sequence is like this:
* You do the initial paperwork to install the radio VFR. In my case, this
was a FAA form 337. This paperwork covers the physical installation &
workmanship. For initial building of a Homebuilt, it may be that this
first 337 is not required - after all, you're not CHANGING an airplane.
Whatever paperwork and inspections you accomplish in building the
airplane MIGHT be sufficient. Ask your FSDO. For a certified ship,
an IA can sign off on the 337.
You also have to write a Flight Manual Supplement ( FMS ) for your GPS.
Garmin supplies a sample FMS, but you have to customize it to your
particular airplane. The customizations are relatively minor, but you
have to type the whole sample FMS into your computer; Garmin does not
supply it on disk.
* Once the VFR installation is signed off, you do a flight test. To do
this, you have to find an FAA repair station to sign the paperwork: an
IA can't do it. This may be the hardest part of the whole procedure:
for the most part, I've found that FAA repair stations don't like to
sign things that they didn't do. I lucked out and found a semi-retired
gentleman who does static/pitot checks AND who is a one-man genuine,
registered FAA repair station. The flight test is pretty simple: you
fly a few approaches and see if it leads you to the runway. I flew
mine at 2000 feet AGL - the GPS doesn't care whether you descend or not.
You also fly some 360 degree circles and check that the GPS doesn't
lose lock.
One sticky point I see in your installation is that you will need an
annunciator showing what the CDI is getting its input from. For a
GNS430 alone, one doesn't need the annunciator, because the display
shows the internal switch setting, RIGHT ABOVE THE SWITCH. You might
be able to get away without the annunciator if you use a toggle switch -
whose setting is obvious by looking at it - but I doubt it. My FSDO
also insisted on a "MSG" light, driven by the GPS, in my immediate
field of view. Maybe one of those little switch/light boxes?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
Frank and Dorothy wrote:
>
> I bought a kit from Dick Smith (similar to your Radio Shack) which does
> almost what I want.
*** Dick Smith was in the States for a few years. They had some neat
ham radio kits.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
Cy Galley wrote:
>
>
> I understand there are radio shops and then there are radio shops that are
> members of a trade group that have set up an "approved" paper package for
> IFR GPS. This cuts down the wait and the cost.
>
*** Any shop that has done several of these will have it's own paperwork
that has "gone through the hoops" already.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Light Flashing Circuit
>
>
> > In the interest of low cost of ownership, minimized parts
> > count and ease of installation, lamps like
> >
> > http://209.134.106.21/4352.jpg
> >
> > are particularly attractive to me. These 55W critters
> > work nicely in leading edge installations and may well
> > run the lifetime of the airplane.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>does this part has an order number and manufacturer and does
>also a round one exist (need one for the cowling).
Walk down the isles any automotive parts store
and see if they've got your lamp on the shelf.
P/N is unimportant. Your looking for a high-beam
or dual beam lamp with 55W or greater power
per bulb. The one I illustrated is a #4352. It
is the only one I've found with the very low
vertical profile. Unfortunately, it was used
on very few cars and is not a high-volume
favorite. Makes them a bit pricey as headlamps
go - about $20.
Except for the fact that this lamp will outlast
the contemporary "aviation" qualified lamps
by perhaps an order of magnitude, one might
be inclined to look for another part . . . but
if you're looking to install a leading edge
lamp, this is the part of choice.
For small, round or semi-round fixtures, take
a look at off-road fixtures offered in places
like Walmart and other automotive parts outlets.
These can be had with 55W replaceable lamps not
unlike those used on headlights of cars. They're
pretty cheap too. Saw a pair of compact bumper
mount fixtures that would easily fit into the
space commonly reserved for wingtip installations.
You can buy a set, hook them to your car battery
after dark and see what kind of light output
you get and what the pattern looks like. Keep
in mind that you don't really need gobs of light
to find the runway or make a good landing.
Just 'cause a 767 blows the retinas off the
eyeballs at 5 miles doesn't mean that's a good
thing for an RV.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick DeCramer" <diesel(at)rconnect.com> |
| Subject: | Light Flashing Circuit |
I also have been considering a landing light flasher as seen on
emergency vehicles for the landing lights of my RV6. Recently, there
has been many articles on this forum on building these circuits but
before we get too far, check out this website, www.strobesnmore.com and
click on "headlight & taillight Flashers". They sell emergency vehicle
strobes, lights and six different model flashers priced from $35.99 to
$47.99 (a Whelen brand). I have NOT installed one as of yet but it is
on my list.
Dick DeCramer
RV6
Northfield, MN
N500DD still Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Light Flashing Circuit |
I would only add that the lights that are billed as 'driving
lights' are probably a better choice than those billed as 'fog
lights.' Traditionally, driving lights have a tighter horizontal
cutoff/beam pattern than do the fogs. This makes the driving lights
put a little more light in a smaller area. However, with the cheap
lights, I think the only difference between the driving lights and
the fog lights is the color of the lense.
As Bob said, you don't need a spot light to land safely. For my
first 15-20 night landings I was flying airplanes that didn't have
any functioning landing light. It gets pretty dark without it, but
its not a big deal. I was always afraid I would hit a deer, however.
Matt-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 7:35 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Light Flashing Circuit
>
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> >To:
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Light Flashing Circuit
> >
> >
> > > In the interest of low cost of ownership, minimized parts
> > > count and ease of installation, lamps like
> > >
> > > http://209.134.106.21/4352.jpg
> > >
> > > are particularly attractive to me. These 55W critters
> > > work nicely in leading edge installations and may well
> > > run the lifetime of the airplane.
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> >
> >Hello Bob,
> >
> >does this part has an order number and manufacturer and does
> >also a round one exist (need one for the cowling).
>
> Walk down the isles any automotive parts store
> and see if they've got your lamp on the shelf.
> P/N is unimportant. Your looking for a high-beam
> or dual beam lamp with 55W or greater power
> per bulb. The one I illustrated is a #4352. It
> is the only one I've found with the very low
> vertical profile. Unfortunately, it was used
> on very few cars and is not a high-volume
> favorite. Makes them a bit pricey as headlamps
> go - about $20.
>
> Except for the fact that this lamp will outlast
> the contemporary "aviation" qualified lamps
> by perhaps an order of magnitude, one might
> be inclined to look for another part . . . but
> if you're looking to install a leading edge
> lamp, this is the part of choice.
>
> For small, round or semi-round fixtures, take
> a look at off-road fixtures offered in places
> like Walmart and other automotive parts outlets.
> These can be had with 55W replaceable lamps not
> unlike those used on headlights of cars. They're
> pretty cheap too. Saw a pair of compact bumper
> mount fixtures that would easily fit into the
> space commonly reserved for wingtip installations.
>
> You can buy a set, hook them to your car battery
> after dark and see what kind of light output
> you get and what the pattern looks like. Keep
> in mind that you don't really need gobs of light
> to find the runway or make a good landing.
>
> Just 'cause a 767 blows the retinas off the
> eyeballs at 5 miles doesn't mean that's a good
> thing for an RV.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
>
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
!! NEW !!
> _-
>
List Related Information
> _-
>
=======================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Thoma, Roy" <roy.thoma(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
jerry(at)tr2.com wrote:
You also have to write a Flight Manual Supplement ( FMS ) for your GPS.
Garmin supplies a sample FMS, but you have to customize it to your
particular airplane. The customizations are relatively minor, but you
have to type the whole sample FMS into your computer; Garmin does not
supply it on disk.
Garmin DOES have sample FMS available for download (along with what appears
to be all their documentation). See
http://www.garmin.com/support/userManual.html. FMS near the bottom of the
page. Most of the documents are .pdf's Things like the FMS which needs to be
customized are MS Word files.
Regards,
Roy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 'Lectric Bob tales... |
>
>Hey Bob,
>
>Sorry this is a bit off topic but I'm in Montreal on business and one of
>the guys I'm working with is Bruce Shauger. We were talking over dinner
>last night and since he's been around Wichita a bit I asked if he'd ever
>heard of ol' Bob Nuckolls. Sure enough, he has some good Bob stories to tell.
Bruce and I worked together on the Gates/Piaggio GP-180 project
at Lear back about 1986.
> He says to say "Hi" and said to ask you if you've seen Pete (or "Petey"
> as he calls him) recently. Says Petey was one of your favorite characters. :
)
Tell him I haven't seen or heard of Pete in many moons . . . and I'm
not disappointed. The person he cites is the only patently evil
person I've ever personally met . . . had the pleasure (?) of
being one of his subordinates for a short period of time. I think
Bruce was similarly "blessed" too at another facility.
>Hope Petey isn't on this list....
I sincerely doubt it . . . Tell Bruce "hi" for me too.
Have Bruce tell you about how we generated and maintained
the reference designator list for the GP-180 on what I
believe is the first use of personal computers in the
Wichita GA manufacturing community. I think Bruce got
to start that list on paper forms. That must have been
what spooked him into leaving Lear . . . I'm trying
to recall now if Bruce was still there when we spun
the program down.
Bruce is about as well traveled an individual as I've
known . . . if you told me you met him in "southern
Slobovia," I wouldn't have been surprised. That
feller does get around.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 'Lectric Bob tales... |
snipped
> >Hope Petey isn't on this list....
>
> I sincerely doubt it . . . Tell Bruce "hi" for me too.
> Have Bruce tell you about how we generated and maintained
> the reference designator list for the GP-180 on what I
> believe is the first use of personal computers in the
> Wichita GA manufacturing community. I think Bruce got
> to start that list on paper forms. That must have been
> what spooked him into leaving Lear . . . I'm trying
> to recall now if Bruce was still there when we spun
> the program down.
>
> Bruce is about as well traveled an individual as I've
> known . . . if you told me you met him in "southern
> Slobovia," I wouldn't have been surprised. That
> feller does get around.
>
> Bob . . .
Well, Bob, he ain't here now but he might have been here in
the past.
Charlie
http://www.airnav.com/airport/MS71
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronnie Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Strobes and Navaid Autopilot |
Bob, you were exactly right (again!)
| >While checking wiring and systems on my Velocity yesterday, I noticed
that
| >the strobes were causing the Navaid autopilot servo to go into the
jitters.
| >The Navaid's servo is mounted on the floor near the firewall and only
about
| >three feet from the strobe's power supply. Turning the strobes off
stopped
| >the problem. My strobes have a single power supply that is mounted in
the
| >fuselage and then connects to the wing tips through Wheelen's 3 wire plus
| >shield wiring. My shields are not connected so I connected test leads to
| >the shields and grounded them. No luck.
|
| Was the alternator running or were you battery only? What was
| the bus voltage?
It is a new battery, but voltage was down to 12.4 volts and the essential
bus was down to 11.4.
| >But, when I switched my essential bus from normal to back up (normal is
fed
| >by a 25 amp diode array as suggested by Bob to prevent back feeding the
main
| >bus from the essential bus), the autopilot servo's jitters went away.
The
| >diode causes a 1.5 volt drop in the essential bus.
|
| . . . should be closer to 0.9 to 1.0 volts. Which bus powers
| the NavAid? Which bus powers the strobes?
The strobes are on the main bus and the Navaid is on the essential bus. You
are correct, the diode indeed has a .9 tp 1.0 volt drop.
| This probably isn't a shielding problem but a bus voltage
| problem. The last time I worked an issue like this, I discovered
| that Nav-Aid chose to ignore or didn't know about the
| very good advice in DO-160 and failed to design their product
| to be insensitive to bumps in bus voltage. It would be
| interesting to see a 'scope trace of the bus voltage going
| into the Nav-Aid while while it was having trouble.
|
| If you're seeing this on battery only ops, you might wait until
| after you've flown the airplane and the alternator picks up
| the bus. If it works okay with the alternator running
| then it's not an issue. When you're flying battery only,
| you don't want the strobes running until you're getting
| close to the destination airport's traffic area whereupon
| hand flying the airplane wouldn't be a bid deal.
|
Agree! I'll leave it all alone and see how it does in the air.
THANKS Bob
Ronnie Brown
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net> |
"AeroElectric-List Digest List"
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 06/17/02 |
Thanks to all who responded to my question about the blocked antenna. I've
passed the information along.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N6JX" <n6jx(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Vans Tachometer Transducer |
I am posting this message as I feel that others may find this hint
helpful if they are trying to hook an electronic engine monitor up to
their engine.
I am using a Grand Rapids Engine Information System engine monitor in my
RV6A. My plane has an O-360 Lyc with dual mags. The EIS has a single
mag input for the tach function, a connection to the P lead on one of
the mags. The problem arises in that when you are doing a mag check,
you will only get a tach reading when the mag that is connected to the
EIS is hot. When you ground this mag, you lose your tach, and so it is
hard to judge if you are getting a uniform mag drop. Some have dealt
with this by installing a switch, to select the respective mag, but I
did not like this.
I considered building a micro-controller based mag selector, but this
got complicated, as the very dirty P lead signal needed a lot of
conditioning for the uP to deal with it, and the system got complex as I
added relays to switch the connections. Also, I didn't like running
the dirty P lead around the instrument panel.
While looking through Van's catalog, I saw that they offered a
transducer that connected to the Tach drive on a Lyc and fed a signal to
their electronic tach. Obviously, since this is a mechanical take-off,
it will show the RPM regardless of the mag selected. I bought one of
the transducers and with the help of a couple of RV-list folks,
confirmed the correct wire connections ( red +12vdc, black
ground, white signal).
I put this on the workbench and hooked it up to an oscilloscope, and
drove it from my drill press at several known RPMs (which turned out to
be overkill since you can turn the input by hand and just count the
pulses). The transducer puts out 8 pulses per revolution, and each
pulse goes from ground to +12vdc. This makes it perfect to interface
with the EIS, which allows you to select from 0.5 to 10 pulsed per
revolution and needs a pulse that is at least 9 volts above ground.
While I am using a dual mag setup, obviously this is also a good
solution for those that are using one mag and one electronic ignition.
The transducer is very well made and has no real friction to it. I
assume that it is either and optical or hall effect sensor. I assume
that this will last very well.
Hope this is helpful to others that may be looking for a similar
solution.
Mel Jordan
Tucson, AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vans Tachometer Transducer |
>
>I am posting this message as I feel that others may find this hint
>helpful if they are trying to hook an electronic engine monitor up to
>their engine.
>
>I am using a Grand Rapids Engine Information System engine monitor in my
>RV6A. My plane has an O-360 Lyc with dual mags. The EIS has a single
>mag input for the tach function, a connection to the P lead on one of
>the mags. The problem arises in that when you are doing a mag check,
>you will only get a tach reading when the mag that is connected to the
>EIS is hot. When you ground this mag, you lose your tach, and so it is
>hard to judge if you are getting a uniform mag drop. Some have dealt
>with this by installing a switch, to select the respective mag, but I
>did not like this.
A number of folks have wrestled with the two-mags/one-tach
problem over the years. Some tachs will readily interface
with a pair of mags using simple resistor and/or capacitor
networks. Others will not. The simplest solution is to
just drive the tach from one mag. Yes, this means you
have to do the preflight rpm-drop-test by ear on one mag . . .
but the YOU timed the magnetos and you KNOW they're
right. Knowing that the both mags work and all plugs are
firing is 99% of everything you wanted to know about a mag
check.
The likelihood of loosing a mag in flight, while not zero, is
not very high either. If you DID loose the mag that drives
the tach, how much pressure does this put on the probable
outcome of your flight?
>I considered building a micro-controller based mag selector, but this
>got complicated, as the very dirty P lead signal needed a lot of
>conditioning for the uP to deal with it, and the system got complex as I
>added relays to switch the connections. Also, I didn't like running
>the dirty P lead around the instrument panel.
>
>While looking through Van's catalog, I saw that they offered a
>transducer that connected to the Tach drive on a Lyc and fed a signal to
>their electronic tach. Obviously, since this is a mechanical take-off,
>it will show the RPM regardless of the mag selected. I bought one of
>the transducers and with the help of a couple of RV-list folks,
>confirmed the correct wire connections ( red +12vdc, black
>ground, white signal).
Beechcraft went to all-electric engine gaging on the Bonanzas
and Barons about 1983. I was at Electro-Mech then (the last
job I had before joining LearJet and working with Bruce
Shauger on the Piaggio). Beech put out a request for quotes
on tach transducers and we won the job. It was a simple
hall effect device mounted in proximity to a series of
tiny bar magnets spun on an aluminum disk driven by the
tachometer drive pad on the engine. I suspect that
the device Vans sells is similar technology. If one
has access to a lathe, it wouldn't be difficult to build
a device compatible with any tach.
>Hope this is helpful to others that may be looking for a similar
>solution.
The shift to this technology for tachometer data was
very positive for Beech (and I presume most others)
and the design has proven pretty much bullet-proof
over the years. I can strongly recommend it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 'Lectric Bob tales... |
>
>
>Well, Bob, he ain't here now but he might have been here in
>the past.
>
>Charlie
>
>http://www.airnav.com/airport/MS71
Cool! Any good stories as to how this airport came
to be named that way?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Ferguson" <jayferg(at)midsouth.rr.com> |
In a modern homebuilt wired with Bob's e-bus/dual battery setup, why not
use dual EFIS's and eliminate most steam gauges and all vacuum? For
example, a BlueMountain EFIS/One for the pilot and a BlueMountain
EFIS/Lite for co-pilot/backup. Or perhaps a Dynon EFIS-D10 in either or
both positions. They are modern, fault-tolerant, low current draw, high
reliability systems that integrate lots of instruments into one package.
I can envision this setup for my instrument panel. It would be a "glass
cockpit" like the real big certified guys. The only other things needed
on the panel would be some switches and radios. Is this too simple? Am
I overlooking something?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Glass cockpit |
What is the web address for BlueMountain. I would like to see what their EFIS
units look like.
Thanks,
Scott Morrow
RV-6A 85%
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terrywatson3(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Glass cockpit |
Bluemountainavionics.com
> What is the web address for BlueMountain. I would like to see what their
EFIS
> units look like.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Glass cockpit |
Thanks ,
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | IFR GPS for homebuilts |
In a message dated 06/19/2002 2:55:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com jerry(at)tr2.com writes:
<< ....skip.....One sticky point I see in your installation is that you will
need an
annunciator showing what the CDI is getting its input from. For a
GNS430 alone, one doesn't need the annunciator, because the display
shows the internal switch setting, RIGHT ABOVE THE SWITCH. You might
be able to get away without the annunciator if you use a toggle switch -
whose setting is obvious by looking at it - but I doubt it. My FSDO
also insisted on a "MSG" light, driven by the GPS, in my immediate
field of view. Maybe one of those little switch/light boxes? >>
6/19/2002
Hello Jerry, Many thanks for your input. I liked Bob Nuckoll's approach and I
certainly don't intend to invite any attention. If my operating limitations
after initial inspection read "day, night, IFR", I will consider that I have
passed any and all paperwork barriers and then check out the actual GPS
performance for myself.
My desire / intent is to never have the FAA get involved in the detailed
capabilities of my amateur built experimental IFR GPS installation like they
do for certificated aircraft.
Regarding selection / annunciation, my Garmin 106A CDI has built in lights
that tell what is feeding it. For the GPS input from the GNS 430 it says
"GPS". For the VHF nav input from the GNS 430 it says "V/LOC". For the SL-30
input it reads "NAV". In addition the input selector button to choose between
the GNS 430 and the SL-30 is split horizontally and illuminated so that when
the GNS 430 is selected that part of the button is lit up and reads "GNS430".
When the SL-30 is selected that part of the button is lit up and reads
"SL-30". So there should not be much confusion about what is feeding the CDI.
But I'm a little confused about the FSDO's desire for a separate "MSG" light.
The GNS 430 has a MSG indication. Didn't the FSDO feel that the GNS 430 MSG
indication was visible enough to the pilot? If the MSG indication on the face
of the GNS 430 wasn't sufficient how could they consider the rest of the info
on the face of the GNS to be adequately displayed? Thanks.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote:
> My desire / intent is to never have the FAA get involved in the detailed
> capabilities of my amateur built experimental IFR GPS installation like they
> do for certificated aircraft.
>
*** I surely understand your desire in that regard, OC :).
> Regarding selection / annunciation, my Garmin 106A CDI has built in lights
> that tell what is feeding it.
*** Ooh, that's nice. That should take care of the selector annunciator
issue.
> But I'm a little confused about the FSDO's desire for a separate "MSG" light.
*** Believe me, I tried to talk them out of it. They wanted something in or
close to the pilot's normal instrument scan. I find the light annoying. I
used a "press-to-test" light that can be dimmed by turning the bezel. The
GNS430 illuminates that light a LOT.
- Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <Richard(at)riley.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Glass cockpit |
That's basically what I'm going with. EFIS sport, MX-20 for the maps, an
EFIS lite for backup. The EFIS sport box will also drive an EFIS 1 for my
backseater. It even has a video input, so my backseater can play a DVD if
the trip gets too long.
>
>
>In a modern homebuilt wired with Bob's e-bus/dual battery setup, why not
>use dual EFIS's and eliminate most steam gauges and all vacuum? For
>example, a BlueMountain EFIS/One for the pilot and a BlueMountain
>EFIS/Lite for co-pilot/backup. Or perhaps a Dynon EFIS-D10 in either or
>both positions. They are modern, fault-tolerant, low current draw, high
>reliability systems that integrate lots of instruments into one package.
>
>I can envision this setup for my instrument panel. It would be a "glass
>cockpit" like the real big certified guys. The only other things needed
>on the panel would be some switches and radios. Is this too simple? Am
>I overlooking something?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Dual Alt/Single Battery |
>>>Z-12 is easily added to an existing and even certified airplane . . .
and especially one that doesn't have an e-bus structure. Also, due to the
greater output of the SD-20, there's no pressing need to take the battery
contactor out of the loop to save energy - HOWEVER, battery master
contactor failure is not well supported with Z-12 . . . Figure 17-4 is also
Figure Z-13. If it were MY airplane, an SD-8 wired per Z-13 would be my
choice. >>>
I am planning on using the SD-20 so I can have a little more juice in the
event of main alternator failure (to cover pitot heat, for example.) How
should Z-13 be modified to wire in the SD-20 instead of the SD-8?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net> |
| Subject: | T2000 transponder |
Bob,
I'm interested in ordering the Microair T2000 from you, I know you are
awaiting them--do you have much of a waiting list at this time?
Dave Ford
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Dual Alt/Single Battery |
>
>
>I am planning on using the SD-20 so I can have a little more juice in the
>event of main alternator failure (to cover pitot heat, for example.) How
>should Z-13 be modified to wire in the SD-20 instead of the SD-8?
How about a variation on Z-14. Use S704-1 relays for
a low current (30A) cross-feed, and as the battery
relay for a small (6 a.h. or so) battery to stabilize
the SD-20 when the cross-feed is open. Use the Aux
Bus as you would the E-bus and put all the main-alt-out
en route loads on the Aux Bus. You wouldn't close the
cross-feed during cranking in this case so a single
pole, single throw cross-feed switch would suffice.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
rzebb(at)inreach.com, jehd01(at)earthlink.net, conyers(at)cwnet.com,
richardwaltermire(at)msn.com, rvandell(at)netcom.com, fox(at)castles.com,
smith6168(at)msn.com, dukekoko(at)pacbell.net, jerrypryce1(at)cs.com,
skywrench007(at)yahoo.com, pittss1(at)aol.com, jeanniedavepdrson(at)aol.com,
norterm(at)pacbell.net, chardick(at)allera.net, lasmiller(at)gotnet.net,
bango(at)community.net, Bob McDermott , martiRV6(at)aol.com,
ruthyann(at)aol.com, mlued1(at)aol.com, lucky-lindy1(at)msn.com,
koerber(at)dellepro.com, anniecps(at)aol.com, aekent(at)webtv.net,
cakarlewicz(at)ucdavis.edu, mcfrank1(at)aol.com, kirk(at)eqithotics.com,
skinoir(at)aol.com, mahedrick(at)yahoo.com
High E.A.A. Chapter 1230. Just a test to see if I have any bad e-mail
addresses. Look soon for your link to our Newsletter and all other
news.
Dave Aronson
Webmaster SPA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
rzebb(at)inreach.com, jehd01(at)earthlink.net, conyers(at)cwnet.com,
richardwaltermire(at)msn.com, rvandell(at)netcom.com, fox(at)castles.com,
smith6168(at)msn.com, dukekoko(at)pacbell.net, jerrypryce1(at)cs.com,
skywrench007(at)yahoo.com, pittss1(at)aol.com, jeanniedavepdrson(at)aol.com,
norterm(at)pacbell.net, chardick(at)allera.net, lasmiller(at)gotnet.net,
bango(at)community.net, Bob McDermott , martiRV6(at)aol.com,
ruthyann(at)aol.com, mlued1(at)aol.com, lucky-lindy1(at)msn.com,
koerber(at)dellepro.com, anniecps(at)aol.com, aekent(at)webtv.net,
cakarlewicz(at)ucdavis.edu, mcfrank1(at)aol.com, kirk(at)eqithotics.com,
skinoir(at)aol.com, mahedrick(at)yahoo.com
E.A.A. 1230 members, this is just a test. I will be sending you updates
as soon as I sort out the bad e-mail addresses.
Thanks
Dave Aronson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Dual Alt/Single Battery |
>>>How about a variation on Z-14. Use S704-1 relays for
a low current (30A) cross-feed, and as the battery
relay for a small (6 a.h. or so) battery to stabilize
the SD-20 when the cross-feed is open. Use the Aux
Bus as you would the E-bus and put all the main-alt-out
en route loads on the Aux Bus. You wouldn't close the
cross-feed during cranking in this case so a single
pole, single throw cross-feed switch would suffice.>>>
What would be wrong with modifying Z-13 by replacing the SD-8 with an SD-20 and
running the B-lead to the battery side of the battery contactor (as with the
SD-8)? Wouldn't this avoid the need for a 2nd battery while also removing the
the contactor as a single point of failure? Would the F connection on the SD-20
still run to the bus as in Z-12?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronnie Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IFR GPS for homebuilts |
For the FSDO's that forget that eyeballs have swivels, put the 430 right in
the middle of the panel and put the big six around them. Its been done and
lauded as goodness by at least one forward thinking FSDO.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Dual Alt/Single Battery |
>
> >>>How about a variation on Z-14. Use S704-1 relays for
>a low current (30A) cross-feed, and as the battery
>relay for a small (6 a.h. or so) battery to stabilize
>the SD-20 when the cross-feed is open. Use the Aux
>Bus as you would the E-bus and put all the main-alt-out
>en route loads on the Aux Bus. You wouldn't close the
>cross-feed during cranking in this case so a single
>pole, single throw cross-feed switch would suffice.>>>
>
>What would be wrong with modifying Z-13 by replacing the SD-8 with an
>SD-20 and running the B-lead to the battery side of the battery contactor
>(as with the SD-8)? Wouldn't this avoid the need for a 2nd battery while
>also removing the the contactor as a single point of failure? Would the F
>connection on the SD-20 still run to the bus as in Z-12?
You could do that too. Field and ov/lv warning connections
for the SD-20/LR3 have to come from the battery bus. It
wouldn't be my choice of architectures.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Doble" <mark_doble(at)hp.com> |
| Subject: | rpm from mag p-lead |
Hi List,
Re: RPM from mag P-Lead signal
i haven't hooked my scope up to my engine and looked at the p-lead
signal...(engine not ready to run yet).
i want to read the rpm from the p-lead signal...has anyone looked at this
signal?
Anyone have any info on how to condition this...suggestions?
my microcontroller is 5v...so i was thinking 4.7V Zener with a .01uF bypass
cap? or is this signal much uglier...and needs more conditioning?
i wanted to avoid the cost of the hall effect transducer to mechanical rpm
port on the engine...
thanks,
Mark.
Mustang II in progress....finishing up engine install..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Thompson <grobdriver(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rpm from mag p-lead |
--- Mark Doble wrote:
>
>
> Hi List,
>
> Re: RPM from mag P-Lead signal
>
> i haven't hooked my scope up to my engine and looked at the p-lead
> signal...(engine not ready to run yet).
>
> i want to read the rpm from the p-lead signal...has anyone looked at
> this
> signal?
>
> Anyone have any info on how to condition this...suggestions?
If you know anyone using a MicroMonitor (who assembled it) you could
ask to look at the schematic. They take RPM off the mags.
Mike Thompson
Austin, TX
-6 N140RV (Reserved)
FWF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Dual Alt/Single Battery |
>>>You could do that too. Field and ov/lv warning connections for the SD-20/LR3
have to come from the battery bus. It wouldn't be my choice of architectures.>>>
Why not?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | ground blocks and busses |
Bob,
I've been looking through the recommended parts list you sent. Given that
I'm building a canard pusher with duel batteries over the spar, I have a few
questions...
I need 20, 10, 6, and 6 fuse blocks.
Are these Main bus, aux, bus, essential bus and aux battery bus? Where would
they be best located?
The list includes only one 24 tab ground block. I presume this is for behind
the panel. Dont I also need one on the engine side of the firewall and one
by the batteries on the cockpit side of the firewall i.e. a firewall kit?
Regards,
John Slade
Cozy IV
http://kgarden.com/cozy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Fues block dimensions |
Hi Bob,
Would you mind leting me know the lenght and width of the 10 & 6 point fuse
blocks.
Thanks, Paul McAllister
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Dual Alt/Single Battery |
>
> >>>You could do that too. Field and ov/lv warning connections for the
> SD-20/LR3 have to come from the battery bus. It wouldn't be my choice of
> architectures.>>>
>
>Why not?
If I were going to spend the extra dollars to get the
higher capability of the SD-20, I think I'd go ahead
and take it the small additional step to provide 100%
isolation between the two systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ground blocks and busses |
>
>Bob,
>I've been looking through the recommended parts list you sent. Given that
>I'm building a canard pusher with duel batteries over the spar, I have a few
>questions...
>
>I need 20, 10, 6, and 6 fuse blocks.
>Are these Main bus, aux, bus, essential bus and aux battery bus? Where would
>they be best located?
Main and aux busses behind the panel. Battery buses at
their respective batteries.
>The list includes only one 24 tab ground block. I presume this is for behind
>the panel. Dont I also need one on the engine side of the firewall and one
>by the batteries on the cockpit side of the firewall i.e. a firewall kit?
You might consider another 24-pin for the cabin side of the
firewall if you plan to have many goodies grounded back there.
This might include strobe supplies, fuel pumps, etc.
Unless you have a very busy engine compartment, most little
things can ground to the firewall or some place on the
engine. You may not be well served by putting a ground block
on the engine side of the firewall.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Non Phillips drive screws |
pulsar-builders(at)caseyk.org
6/20/2002
Hello Fellow Amateur Experimental Aircraft Builders,
Some background: Recently a fellow builder in a posting to a web based group
that I belong to expressed his complete disgust with Phillips drive screws. I
responded that there were superior alternatives such as hex socket, Torx, and
Torx Plus drive screws that were being used in modern aerospace vehicles, but
that it was very difficult to find and expensive to buy such screws in small
quantities for our use. There then ensued a series of postings back and forth
saying "are too" / "are not". The result was a another search on my part for
such a souce -- I have potentially located one.
John Fleisher of Micro Fasteners has offered to procure and stock some T20,
Torx drive, 8-32x5/8 inch, 100 degree countersink, flat head screws in 18-8
stainless steel. These will be special ordered, but he will be able to
provide them at an extremely attractive price. (Compare to MS24694C7 Phillips
drive screws from Aircraft Spruce or Skybolt). Before he commits to the
significant expense of stocking these screws he needs some assurance that
there is indeed a market for these screws at the price he is going to charge.
Here is where you come in. If you have a sincere interest in purchasing some
of these screws please contact John very soon by email at
as he will be making his purchase / non purchase
decision within two weeks. John's proposal, questions, and concerns that he
must resolve are contained in his email to me (slightly edited) directly
below:
" OC, We can buy 8-32x5/8 100 deg. torx T15 or torx T20 18-8 stainless to
sell for$14.50/100, and the dollars on our shelf would be small enough to put
in up to 4 or 5 different sizes if necessary.
This supplier doesn't stock any finished goods, so we couldn't have saved on
the screws we've supplied to you so far, but for the future we only need to
feel that we can move 5000-10,000 pieces at those prices to go ahead. Hex
sockets are only about 10% less expensive, so let's forget them for now.
So if you will indicate to your fraternity that we can supply them at the
$.15/screw level and see what kind of reaction occurs, we would be willing
to go ahead and order this size now. Let me know. John @ Micro Fasteners "
Now some personal notes:
1) I have no dollar dog in this fight -- I am not connected financially to
Micro Fasteners in any way, but I am a long time satisfied customer and have
made purchases from them in the past including some very expensive specially
ordered screws. They have a web site at <> and a
printed catalog for their existing standard products that they will mail to
you if requested.
2) I too feel that Phillips drive screws are inferior to hex socket, Torx,
and Torx Plus Drive.
3) The 8-32x5/8 100 degree flat head, T20 Torx drive 18-8 stainless steel
screws are my recommendation to John based on my perception of the most
commonly needed screw. I could be wrong. If you have more / better choices
please let John know the specifics, but realize that he can not afford to
stock too many sizes of specially ordered screws.
4) I feel that these screws are acceptable for structural use in our amateur
built experimental aircraft. I base this opinion on the fact that the similar
Phillips drive structural MS24694C screws are also made of 85 ksi tensile
strength stainless steel.
5) I have searched for a source of such screws for several years without
success until now and I think that John's offer is a significant break
through. I will be letting John know that I will order 300 if he decides to
stock them based on the responses that he gets.
6) Again, please contact John very soon by email at
if you have a sincere interest. I apologize for
the use of this group to put out this off topic message, but I feel that it
could be of real service to many fellow builders.
7) I have one other request, if you participate in some other internet
builder's group and you think that any of their members would benefit from
this information would you please forward a copy of this posting to that
group? Many thanks.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: rpm from mag p-lead |
>
>Hi List,
>
>Re: RPM from mag P-Lead signal
>
>i haven't hooked my scope up to my engine and looked at the p-lead
>signal...(engine not ready to run yet).
>
>i want to read the rpm from the p-lead signal...has anyone looked at this
>signal?
>
>Anyone have any info on how to condition this...suggestions?
Yup, it's VERY trashy and high voltages to
boot. The only p-lead driven project I did
used a low pass amplifier with lots of roll
off above 100 Hz that drove a squaring amplifier
to get me a clean square wave synchronized with
engine rpm.
The only other project I worked on that needed
rpm also need propeller phase (engine synchronizer
that servoed one prop position against another
for the purpose of reducing cabin noise). This
system put a current transformer around one plug
wire (you can read the magnetic field right through
the shielding) and used this to get RPM -and-
phase with respect to the other engine.
To set phase, we used frequency-phase detectors
to lock a 25Khz voltage controlled oscillator
(divided by 256) to the plug pulse of one engine.
We could decode the 8-bit counter to pick a variable
phase angle of one engine and use this to stroke
a second frequency-phase detector to drive the
Woodward prop governor as needed to keep the
props in the proper relationship to each other
for minimum cabin noise.
You don't need the prop phase but the technique
for getting a stone solid RPM signal may be
of interest to you.
>my microcontroller is 5v...so i was thinking 4.7V Zener with a .01uF bypass
>cap? or is this signal much uglier...and needs more conditioning?
>
>i wanted to avoid the cost of the hall effect transducer to mechanical rpm
>port on the engine...
What cost? The Hall effect device is a couple dollars. Magnets
are cheap too. If you've got access to a lathe, cutting
out the rest of the parts would yield the cleanest RPM
signal you could hope for.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert E. Falstad" <RandBFalstad(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Backwards Cessna Master/Alternator Switch? |
Folks,
I'm going to install a Cessna split master/alternator switch in a GlaStar.
(I'm aware many on the list suggest other approaches but because others
will fly the airplane, too, I want it to be familiar.)
I have the switch but it seems backwards. I recall that all the Cessnas I
used to fly had the LH side as the master switch and the RH side as the
alternator switch. I also understand that the ALT should never be ON
without the battery being on-line (Master ON).
I checked the switch with a buzz box and I can have the RH side ON without
the LH side ON, but the LH side cannot be on without the RH side also being
ON. So anytime the RH switch is OFF, the LH switch is OFF also. If I wire
it so the Master can be ON with the ALT off, the ALT will have to be the LH
switch and the Master will have to be the RH switch. Ergonomically this
seems exactly backwards.
Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse block dimensions |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Would you mind leting me know the lenght and width of the 10 & 6 point fuse
>blocks.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/ckrtprot.html#fuseblock
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert E. Falstad" <RandBFalstad(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Fuse Block Location Suggestions |
Fred & Aletha Hein
Folks,
I'm going to follow Bob's suggestion (this time!) and install the
automotive-style fuse block (in a GlaStar). I believe the FARs require
that the circuit breakers or fuses be within reach of the pilot. But I
don't want to devote panel space to the fuses.
I am thinking of putting it on a small sub panel on the LH side wall below
the panel. It may be forward of the plane of the panel (along the pilot's
thigh, perhaps near the pilot's knee). Does this sound like it meets the
letter or spirit or intent of any applicable FARs? The FARs
notwithstanding, does that sound like a safe and appropriate location?
Frankly speaking, the fuse block may be within reach of the pilot but out
of eyesight unless the pilot brings his head down to near the bottom edge
of the panel.
Any thoughts, comments or suggestions welcome, including alternate
locations.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Non Phillips drive screws |
just a quick comment - I just got a new BMW motorcycle and it has all torx
head bolts, big and small. It's a real pleasure to work on. I've had
problems on my plane with phillips heads going into anchor nuts, wish they
were all torx.
Gary K.
----- Original Message -----
From: <BAKEROCB(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Non Phillips drive screws
>
> 6/20/2002
>
> Hello Fellow Amateur Experimental Aircraft Builders,
>
> Some background: Recently a fellow builder in a posting to a web based
group
> that I belong to expressed his complete disgust with Phillips drive
screws. I
> responded that there were superior alternatives such as hex socket, Torx,
and
> Torx Plus drive screws that were being used in modern aerospace vehicles,
but
> that it was very difficult to find and expensive to buy such screws in
small
> quantities for our use. There then ensued a series of postings back and
forth
> saying "are too" / "are not". The result was a another search on my part
for
> such a souce -- I have potentially located one.
>
> John Fleisher of Micro Fasteners has offered to procure and stock some
T20,
> Torx drive, 8-32x5/8 inch, 100 degree countersink, flat head screws in
18-8
> stainless steel. These will be special ordered, but he will be able to
> provide them at an extremely attractive price. (Compare to MS24694C7
Phillips
> drive screws from Aircraft Spruce or Skybolt). Before he commits to the
> significant expense of stocking these screws he needs some assurance that
> there is indeed a market for these screws at the price he is going to
charge.
>
> Here is where you come in. If you have a sincere interest in purchasing
some
> of these screws please contact John very soon by email at
> as he will be making his purchase / non
purchase
> decision within two weeks. John's proposal, questions, and concerns that
he
> must resolve are contained in his email to me (slightly edited) directly
> below:
>
> " OC, We can buy 8-32x5/8 100 deg. torx T15 or torx T20 18-8 stainless to
> sell for$14.50/100, and the dollars on our shelf would be small enough to
put
> in up to 4 or 5 different sizes if necessary.
>
> This supplier doesn't stock any finished goods, so we couldn't have saved
on
> the screws we've supplied to you so far, but for the future we only need
to
> feel that we can move 5000-10,000 pieces at those prices to go ahead. Hex
> sockets are only about 10% less expensive, so let's forget them for now.
>
> So if you will indicate to your fraternity that we can supply them at the
> $.15/screw level and see what kind of reaction occurs, we would be willing
> to go ahead and order this size now. Let me know. John @ Micro Fasteners "
>
> Now some personal notes:
>
> 1) I have no dollar dog in this fight -- I am not connected financially to
> Micro Fasteners in any way, but I am a long time satisfied customer and
have
> made purchases from them in the past including some very expensive
specially
> ordered screws. They have a web site at <> and a
> printed catalog for their existing standard products that they will mail
to
> you if requested.
>
> 2) I too feel that Phillips drive screws are inferior to hex socket, Torx,
> and Torx Plus Drive.
>
> 3) The 8-32x5/8 100 degree flat head, T20 Torx drive 18-8 stainless steel
> screws are my recommendation to John based on my perception of the most
> commonly needed screw. I could be wrong. If you have more / better choices
> please let John know the specifics, but realize that he can not afford to
> stock too many sizes of specially ordered screws.
>
> 4) I feel that these screws are acceptable for structural use in our
amateur
> built experimental aircraft. I base this opinion on the fact that the
similar
> Phillips drive structural MS24694C screws are also made of 85 ksi tensile
> strength stainless steel.
>
> 5) I have searched for a source of such screws for several years without
> success until now and I think that John's offer is a significant break
> through. I will be letting John know that I will order 300 if he decides
to
> stock them based on the responses that he gets.
>
> 6) Again, please contact John very soon by email at
> if you have a sincere interest. I apologize
for
> the use of this group to put out this off topic message, but I feel that
it
> could be of real service to many fellow builders.
>
> 7) I have one other request, if you participate in some other internet
> builder's group and you think that any of their members would benefit from
> this information would you please forward a copy of this posting to that
> group? Many thanks.
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Non Phillips drive screws |
I'd probably take 100 of these. And/or I'd be interested in the same
screws, but hex head to match some SS pan head hex screws already in use
on my RV-8. One less bit to keep track of for the screwdriver.
Thanks,
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:52 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com;
> kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com; pulsar-builders(at)caseyk.org
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Non Phillips drive screws
>
>
>
> 6/20/2002
>
> Hello Fellow Amateur Experimental Aircraft Builders,
>
> Some background: Recently a fellow builder in a posting to a
> web based group
> that I belong to expressed his complete disgust with Phillips
> drive screws. I
> responded that there were superior alternatives such as hex
> socket, Torx, and
> Torx Plus drive screws that were being used in modern
> aerospace vehicles, but
> that it was very difficult to find and expensive to buy such
> screws in small
> quantities for our use. There then ensued a series of
> postings back and forth
> saying "are too" / "are not". The result was a another search
> on my part for
> such a souce -- I have potentially located one.
>
> John Fleisher of Micro Fasteners has offered to procure and
> stock some T20,
> Torx drive, 8-32x5/8 inch, 100 degree countersink, flat head
> screws in 18-8
> stainless steel. These will be special ordered, but he will
> be able to
> provide them at an extremely attractive price. (Compare to
> MS24694C7 Phillips
> drive screws from Aircraft Spruce or Skybolt). Before he
> commits to the
> significant expense of stocking these screws he needs some
> assurance that
> there is indeed a market for these screws at the price he is
> going to charge.
>
> Here is where you come in. If you have a sincere interest in
> purchasing some
> of these screws please contact John very soon by email at
> as he will be making his
> purchase / non purchase
> decision within two weeks. John's proposal, questions, and
> concerns that he
> must resolve are contained in his email to me (slightly
> edited) directly
> below:
>
> " OC, We can buy 8-32x5/8 100 deg. torx T15 or torx T20 18-8
> stainless to
> sell for$14.50/100, and the dollars on our shelf would be
> small enough to put
> in up to 4 or 5 different sizes if necessary.
>
> This supplier doesn't stock any finished goods, so we
> couldn't have saved on the screws we've supplied to you so
> far, but for the future we only need to feel that we can move
> 5000-10,000 pieces at those prices to go ahead. Hex sockets
> are only about 10% less expensive, so let's forget them for now.
>
> So if you will indicate to your fraternity that we can supply
> them at the $.15/screw level and see what kind of reaction
> occurs, we would be willing to go ahead and order this size
> now. Let me know. John @ Micro Fasteners "
>
> Now some personal notes:
>
> 1) I have no dollar dog in this fight -- I am not connected
> financially to
> Micro Fasteners in any way, but I am a long time satisfied
> customer and have
> made purchases from them in the past including some very
> expensive specially
> ordered screws. They have a web site at
> <> and a
> printed catalog for their existing standard products that
> they will mail to
> you if requested.
>
> 2) I too feel that Phillips drive screws are inferior to hex
> socket, Torx,
> and Torx Plus Drive.
>
> 3) The 8-32x5/8 100 degree flat head, T20 Torx drive 18-8
> stainless steel
> screws are my recommendation to John based on my perception
> of the most
> commonly needed screw. I could be wrong. If you have more /
> better choices
> please let John know the specifics, but realize that he can
> not afford to
> stock too many sizes of specially ordered screws.
>
> 4) I feel that these screws are acceptable for structural use
> in our amateur
> built experimental aircraft. I base this opinion on the fact
> that the similar
> Phillips drive structural MS24694C screws are also made of 85
> ksi tensile
> strength stainless steel.
>
> 5) I have searched for a source of such screws for several
> years without
> success until now and I think that John's offer is a
> significant break
> through. I will be letting John know that I will order 300 if
> he decides to
> stock them based on the responses that he gets.
>
> 6) Again, please contact John very soon by email at
> if you have a sincere interest.
> I apologize for
> the use of this group to put out this off topic message, but
> I feel that it
> could be of real service to many fellow builders.
>
> 7) I have one other request, if you participate in some other
> internet
> builder's group and you think that any of their members would
> benefit from
> this information would you please forward a copy of this
> posting to that
> group? Many thanks.
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
>
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
> Search Engine:
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> ===========
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Block Location Suggestions |
Far 23.1357 d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse
is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so
located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight.
So not all CB or fuses need to be accessible in flight by the pilot. just
the ones that are essential to safety in flight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert E. Falstad" <RandBFalstad(at)compuserve.com>
Hein"
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Block Location Suggestions
Folks,
I'm going to follow Bob's suggestion (this time!) and install the
automotive-style fuse block (in a GlaStar). I believe the FARs require
that the circuit breakers or fuses be within reach of the pilot. But I
don't want to devote panel space to the fuses.
I am thinking of putting it on a small sub panel on the LH side wall below
the panel. It may be forward of the plane of the panel (along the pilot's
thigh, perhaps near the pilot's knee). Does this sound like it meets the
letter or spirit or intent of any applicable FARs? The FARs
notwithstanding, does that sound like a safe and appropriate location?
Frankly speaking, the fuse block may be within reach of the pilot but out
of eyesight unless the pilot brings his head down to near the bottom edge
of the panel.
Any thoughts, comments or suggestions welcome, including alternate
locations.
Bob
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
| Subject: | Fuse Block Location Suggestions |
> Folks,
>
> I'm going to follow Bob's suggestion (this time!) and install the
> automotive-style fuse block (in a GlaStar). I believe the FARs require
> that the circuit breakers or fuses be within reach of the pilot. But I
> don't want to devote panel space to the fuses.
I'm not aware of such a reg. The regs say you gotta have spares onboard,
but they don't explicitly say ya gotta be able to reach 'em in flight.
Of course, you're walking a fine line interpreting the regs this way, but as
written, I do think that this is a valid, if perhaps slightly unreasonable,
interpretation.
>
> I am thinking of putting it on a small sub panel on the LH side wall below
> the panel. It may be forward of the plane of the panel (along the pilot's
> thigh, perhaps near the pilot's knee). Does this sound like it meets the
> letter or spirit or intent of any applicable FARs? The FARs
> notwithstanding, does that sound like a safe and appropriate location?
> Frankly speaking, the fuse block may be within reach of the pilot but out
> of eyesight unless the pilot brings his head down to near the bottom edge
> of the panel.
>
> Any thoughts, comments or suggestions welcome, including alternate
> locations.
>
The "Bob Nuckolls School of Thought" is that it's usually inappropriate to
troubleshoot electrical problems in the air. Given your well-thought-out
system with redundancies and an E-bus, no blown fuse will result in a
situation where the safe and comfortable completion of flight can't be
accomplished.
(By God, I think I've been indoctrinated!)
From a personal perspective, ducking one's head under the panel in flight
just doesn't sound like the smartest thing in the world to do. (If I may be
allowed some understatement.)
This is probably a good time to stop work and pick up the phone. Call a few
of the local DARs and ask their opinions. When you get right down to it,
that person's opinion is the ONLY opinion that matters when you're trying to
get that piece of paper that turns your ground-based vehicle into a bona
fide airplane.
$0.02.
-Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Backwards Cessna Master/Alternator Switch? |
If you go look at a Cessna, you'll see that the alternator is the left half,
the battery is the right half. That's the way the new Cessna's are anyway
and I doubt that they changed it.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> I'm going to install a Cessna split master/alternator switch in a GlaStar.
>
> I have the switch but it seems backwards. I recall that all the Cessnas I
> used to fly had the LH side as the master switch and the RH side as the
> alternator switch. I also understand that the ALT should never be ON
> without the battery being on-line (Master ON).
> If I wire
> it so the Master can be ON with the ALT off, the ALT will have to be the
LH
> switch and the Master will have to be the RH switch. Ergonomically this
> seems exactly backwards.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rpm from mag p-lead |
Robert and others.
We do this routinely on the engine test stand. The P lead is a big noise AC
signal.
From memory, we do something like this:
Take the P-lead circuit and do a 100:1 voltage divide. 500K and a 5K
resistor to ground from memory.
The P lead voltage will peak somewhere up in the 300 to 500 volt range, so
that gives us a
3 to 5 volt signal. We run that out through a diode and then filter that
with a couple of caps and then put a lid on the voltage with a 5 volt
zener to cap it at 5 volts during transients.
We then run that into a Schmidt trigger and that cleans it right on up and
gives a nice square wave output.
Regards, George
>
>i want to read the rpm from the p-lead signal...has anyone looked at this
>signal?
>
>Anyone have any info on how to condition this...suggestions?
Yup, it's VERY trashy and high voltages to
boot. The only p-lead driven project I did
used a low pass amplifier with lots of roll
off above 100 Hz that drove a squaring amplifier
to get me a clean square wave synchronized with
engine rpm.
The only other project I worked on that needed
rpm also need propeller phase (engine synchronizer
that servoed one prop position against another
for the purpose of reducing cabin noise). This
system put a current transformer around one plug
wire (you can read the magnetic field right through
the shielding) and used this to get RPM -and-
phase with respect to the other engine.
To set phase, we used frequency-phase detectors
to lock a 25Khz voltage controlled oscillator
(divided by 256) to the plug pulse of one engine.
We could decode the 8-bit counter to pick a variable
phase angle of one engine and use this to stroke
a second frequency-phase detector to drive the
Woodward prop governor as needed to keep the
props in the proper relationship to each other
for minimum cabin noise.
You don't need the prop phase but the technique
for getting a stone solid RPM signal may be
of interest to you.
>my microcontroller is 5v...so i was thinking 4.7V Zener with a .01uF bypass
>cap? or is this signal much uglier...and needs more conditioning?
>
>i wanted to avoid the cost of the hall effect transducer to mechanical rpm
>port on the engine...
What cost? The Hall effect device is a couple dollars. Magnets
are cheap too. If you've got access to a lathe, cutting
out the rest of the parts would yield the cleanest RPM
signal you could hope for.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Chalmers <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com> |
I have a portable GPS that I plan to use in my Q200. I want to wire a 12V
power outlet somewhere on the panel but want to use something better than a
cigarette-lighter socket for the connection. I thought one of those airline
Empower sockets would work well but I can't find anywhere to buy one. Anyone
know a source for the sockets - I think they're ARINC 628?
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | ARINC 628 connector |
Hypertronics makes this connector. Check out their website at
www.hypertronics.com.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
> I want to wire a 12V
> power outlet somewhere on the panel but want to use something better
than
> a
> cigarette-lighter socket for the connection. I thought one of those
> airline
> Empower sockets would work well but I can't find anywhere to buy one.
> Anyone
> know a source for the sockets - I think they're ARINC 628?
>
> Dave
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Mireley <glcompair(at)mireley.tcimet.net> |
| Subject: | Thin wire ethernet for antennas |
Would thin wire ethernet cable, rg-58 type 20 awg,
be suitable for connecting antennas?
Which ones?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Cartwright" <ccart(at)stanford.edu> |
| Subject: | RE: All Electric Airplanes |
Bob and all those working on all electric systems:
I would like to hear comments on a 2 bat/1 alt system vs.
2 alt/1 bat. Bob seems to recommend replacing a battery once
a year (given relatively low cost) and speaks very highly
about reliability of current B&C alternators. This would
seem to argue that the battery is the less reliable part of these
systems; and if it fails the alternator won't be stable.
So I would conclude that 2 bat/1 alt would be less likely
to have complete failure; at the cost of a little more weight
and in the event of alternator failure flight would be limited
to battery reserve as opposed to the "unlimited" reserve of a 2 alt system.
Comments??
Chris C
Palo Alto, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: All Electric Airplanes |
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: All Electric Airplanes
>
> Bob and all those working on all electric systems:
>
> I would like to hear comments on a 2 bat/1 alt system vs.
> 2 alt/1 bat. Bob seems to recommend replacing a battery once
> a year (given relatively low cost) and speaks very highly
> about reliability of current B&C alternators. This would
> seem to argue that the battery is the less reliable part of these
> systems; and if it fails the alternator won't be stable.
>
> So I would conclude that 2 bat/1 alt would be less likely
> to have complete failure; at the cost of a little more weight
> and in the event of alternator failure flight would be limited
> to battery reserve as opposed to the "unlimited" reserve of a 2 alt
system.
>
> Comments??
> Chris C
> Palo Alto, CA
Hi Chris,
I fly an all electric RV-6A with one alternator and two 17 AH batteries
(started out with two 25AH Concord RGs and found them excessive in both
weight, capacity and cost so switched to Oddessey). I have 150 hours flight
time on the system with no failures of any component.
If you have two alternators and they are on the same end of the engine
and belt driven, be aware that a broken belt can entangle and take out the
belt to the second alternator. However, having no experience with two
alternators, I can not say that the two battery is better than the two
alternator configuration.
I have never needed the second battery and I know of one individual with
over 1200 hours on an all electric aircraft who now only flies with his
alternator and a single battery. Views the battery as the back up to a
failed alternator (or which neither has failed him in 1200 hours).
FWIW
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 12V power sockets |
>
> I want to wire a 12V
>power outlet somewhere on the panel but want to use something better than a
>cigarette-lighter socket
Me too. I was thinking of using an RCA plug & socket. Small and common
but I don't see them in many applications. I don't know what you might
plug the GPS into by error that would harm it nor would any RCA device be
likely to be plugged into your airplane and if it were and burned up the
loss would be small.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n howell<testwest(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: All Electric Airplanes |
Chris Cartwright wrote: "This would
> seem to argue that the battery is the less reliable part of these
> systems; and if it fails the alternator won't be stable.
Hi Chris and everyone:
The main argument I see in favor of the 2 alt/1 batt configuration is that the
more likely failure (1 alternator) results in an operational system that is
not time-limited (except for on-board fuel, which is a time limitation for
every flight), given the "replace battery each year" protocol. Remember, we
are talking about overall system reliability here, AND the consequences of a
failure state. A failure of a modern RG battery which is replaced new each
year is very unlikely, no matter how many "dark 'n' stormy night" stories you
may hear. Two alternators, one driven normally and one driven on the aux
alternator pad (formerly known as a 'vacuum pump pad' in ancient English) are
very unlikely to fail at once. Even if they did, proper system design and
active notification of low voltage will greatly mitigate the risk that a
failure will lead to a mishap, by giving the pilot time to do something about
the failure BEFORE the battery is depleted in flight.
I have found figure Z-13 in the 'Connection to be just about an ideal system
for any single-engine personal airplane. The only change one might make is to
analyze how much juice would be needed to "comfortably terminate" a night IFR
flight where pitot heat is required. If that is the case, an SD-20 could be
substituted in place of the SD-8, per the details given by 'Lectric Bob in a
very recent e-mail.
I have also found that, in discussions of system reliability, people tend to
focus on "what if" scenarios whose likelihood of occurrence is extremely
remote. They will then charge off (pun intended) on an engineering path
without regard for cost, weight and complexity, and inadvertantly implement a
system to address the extrememly remote possibility that, in the final
analysis, is no more reliable than what was orginally considered.
Get thee hence and implement Z-13 in your plane, and know happiness.
Norm Howell
Experimental Test Pilot, Boeing Airlift and Tankers
Berkut 540, Z-13, dual LSE
"Friends don't let friends fly with vacuum pumps or magneto(e)s"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg(at)iafrica.com> |
| Subject: | Altitude encoder gray codes |
I've been thinking about putting together a small circuit to display the
altitude being sent by my transponder, something that I will "T" off the
cable between the encoder and transponder. I have a list (which I beleive
is correct) of the gray codes along with their corresponding altitudes.
Does anyone know if there is a mathematical relationship between the gray
code and the altitude, or would I simply have to use a look up table in my
processor?
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude encoder gray codes |
I can't speak to the specific altitude question but I remember from my
digital electronics class in college that gray code was a binary code used
to represent numbers where when you increment from one number to the next
only ONE bit would change. I guess somebody thought that it would be more
efficient in some types of computers. There is a method to the madness, but
it has been a long time. If nobody helps I'll try to remember to blow all
the dust off that book and see if it has any algorythms for decoding the
gray code. I would probably just use a lookup table but I am lazy and
memory is cheap. BTW what table do you have. I'd like to see it.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
http://www.myrv7.com
Fuselage
Airplanes never win battles with the ground. The best the airplane can hope
for is a draw.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg(at)iafrica.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Altitude encoder gray codes
>
> I've been thinking about putting together a small circuit to display the
> altitude being sent by my transponder, something that I will "T" off the
> cable between the encoder and transponder. I have a list (which I beleive
> is correct) of the gray codes along with their corresponding altitudes.
> Does anyone know if there is a mathematical relationship between the gray
> code and the altitude, or would I simply have to use a look up table in my
> processor?
>
> Dave
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
| Subject: | Altitude encoder gray codes |
Under the assumption that you'll be using a low-cost microcontroller, I'd
think the lookup table is the way to go. You'd probably have gobs of ROM to
spare into which you could put the table, and doing complex math with an
8-bit uP would probablty take more code space than the lookup table would
anyway. Just going celcius to farentheit in a PIC processor is a PITA as
far as I'm concerned.
-Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
> Grosvenor
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:10 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Altitude encoder gray codes
>
>
>
>
> I've been thinking about putting together a small circuit to display the
> altitude being sent by my transponder, something that I will "T" off the
> cable between the encoder and transponder. I have a list (which I beleive
> is correct) of the gray codes along with their corresponding altitudes.
> Does anyone know if there is a mathematical relationship between the gray
> code and the altitude, or would I simply have to use a look up table in my
> processor?
>
> Dave
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Proposed E-bus loads using Z-13 |
I've been thinking about scrapping the idea of having pitot heat on my
E-bus and going with the SD-8 rather than the SD-20 for the second
alternator. I wonder if folks could comment on using the SD-8 with the
following tentative load requirements. All information on current comes
from manufacturers' specs or from panel planner, although used the same
number for the typical and maximum loads when only one number was
given. My proposal:
Typical Maximum
UPS SL-15 Audio Panel .35 1.5
UPS SL-30 Nav/Com
Com Receiver (continuous?) .27 2
Com Transmitter (continuous?) 2.1 3.2
Nav Receiver .325 .5
UPS SL-70 Transponder .5 1.4
TruTrak Autopilot (1 axis on) 2 2
RC Allen Electric AI 1.2 1.2
Electric Turn Coordinator .35 .35
VM-1000 Engine Instruments .3 .3
EI Fuel gauge .1 .1
Panel & Reading Lights (guestimate) .2 .2
Totals 7.695 12.75
I could substitute the UPS GX-60 GPS/Com for the SL-30 with about a .2 amp
increase, but I figured I would have my battery-operated handheld GPS on
board. Plus, I can live without the GPS heading information because the
TruTrak has its own DG.
So the typical load on the SD-8 would be just under 8 amps, right near its
rating, and the maximum load (if everything happened at once I guess) would
approach 13 amps, which is more than the alternator can handle. Three
questions: 1) Could I run this load on the SD-8 with the battery contactor
open to save the battery for the landing phase? 2) If the advice would be
to run this with the battery contactor closed, how fast would the battery
draw down? 3) Would you advise against this? If so, why, and what
alternative would you suggest?
Thanks in advance,
Dan O'Brien, N624LD, Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg(at)iafrica.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude encoder gray codes |
Phil, I have the table at work, I'll send it to you on Monday. It's easy to
convert gray code to binary, but there doesn't appear to be a correlation
between the code/binary and the altitude. As far as I know gray code was an
easy means of mechanically outputting a number from a rotary device. Just a
guess, but maybe the reason gray codes are used in encoders is from early
encoding altimeters. I think the lookup table will be the way to go.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Altitude encoder gray codes
>
> I can't speak to the specific altitude question but I remember from my
> digital electronics class in college that gray code was a binary code used
> to represent numbers where when you increment from one number to the next
> only ONE bit would change. I guess somebody thought that it would be more
> efficient in some types of computers. There is a method to the madness,
but
> it has been a long time. If nobody helps I'll try to remember to blow all
> the dust off that book and see if it has any algorythms for decoding the
> gray code. I would probably just use a lookup table but I am lazy and
> memory is cheap. BTW what table do you have. I'd like to see it.
>
> Godspeed,
>
> Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
> http://www.myrv7.com
> Fuselage
>
> Airplanes never win battles with the ground. The best the airplane can
hope
> for is a draw.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Grosvenor" <dwg(at)iafrica.com>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Altitude encoder gray codes
>
>
>
> >
> > I've been thinking about putting together a small circuit to display the
> > altitude being sent by my transponder, something that I will "T" off the
> > cable between the encoder and transponder. I have a list (which I
beleive
> > is correct) of the gray codes along with their corresponding altitudes.
> > Does anyone know if there is a mathematical relationship between the
gray
> > code and the altitude, or would I simply have to use a look up table in
my
> > processor?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net> |
| Subject: | ELT antenna location |
I have the ACK ELT and am wondering where the antenna is being located
since they recommend outside and vertical. I believe some are locating
it inside but I am thinking if it is surrounded by aluminum that is
effectively shielding the desired radiating rf pattern. If it is being
mounted nearest the canopy, at what location is the antenna positioned?
BTW I would prefer to have it inside.
Dave Ford
RV6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Plewa <gplewa(at)esp.telcordia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude encoder gray codes |
Grey code is indeed a modified binary scheme where only one bit changes
while counting either up or down. It was and still is used on rotary
encoder wheels so that they will be "self clocking" on the leading edge
of ANY bit change. Also with regular binary a multi-bit change, say
from 7 to 8 (e.g. 0111 to 1000) would produce noise during the transition
as the bits would not all change at the EXACT same instant due to the
mechanical imprecision of the wheel. The first altitude encoders were
implemented using slotted rotary wheels on the shafts driving the hands
in an altimeter. Grey code provided a stable altitude readout even while
flying above and then below an altitude transition.
There isn't any mathematical algorithim to convert from grey code to
binary that I know if. A ROM containing a mapping table was typically
used to convert from one to the other. If you plan on using
discrete chips to go from BCD to drive a seven-segment display then
front end it with a ROM. If you go the micro-controller route then
just use Grey code directly and write your program to do the mapping.
Of course mapping the encoder output is one thing, displaying the
pressure altitude seen by ATC is another. The scheme, shortened for
list purposes is:
ALTITUDE A1 A2 A4 B1 B2 B4 C1 C2 C4 D1 D2 D4
-1200 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
-1100 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0
-1000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
-900 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
-800 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
-700 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
-600 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
-500 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0
-400 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0
-300 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
-200 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
-100 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0
100 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
200 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
300 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
400 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
500 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
600 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0
700 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
800 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
900 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0
[ snipped ]
125500 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0
125600 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
125700 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0
125800 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0
125900 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
126000 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0
126100 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0
126200 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0
126300 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0
126400 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0
126500 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0
126600 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0
126700 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
I hope this helps. I can post or email the complete table is there
is interest, just let me know.
Gary
Computer Dinosaur from the vacuum tube and punch card days
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Altitude encoder gray codes
I can't speak to the specific altitude question but I remember from my
digital electronics class in college that gray code was a binary code used
to represent numbers where when you increment from one number to the next
only ONE bit would change. I guess somebody thought that it would be more
efficient in some types of computers. There is a method to the madness, but
it has been a long time. If nobody helps I'll try to remember to blow all
the dust off that book and see if it has any algorythms for decoding the
gray code. I would probably just use a lookup table but I am lazy and
memory is cheap. BTW what table do you have. I'd like to see it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Non Phillips drive screws |
BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> 6/20/2002
>
> Hello Fellow Amateur Experimental Aircraft Builders,
>
> Some background: Recently a fellow builder in a posting to a web based group
> that I belong to expressed his complete disgust with Phillips drive screws. I
> responded that there were superior alternatives such as hex socket, Torx, and
> Torx Plus drive screws that were being used in modern aerospace vehicles, but
> that it was very difficult to find and expensive to buy such screws in small
> quantities for our use. There then ensued a series of postings back and forth
> saying "are too" / "are not". The result was a another search on my part for
> such a souce -- I have potentially located one.
>
snipped
> 6) Again, please contact John very soon by email at
> if you have a sincere interest. I apologize for
> the use of this group to put out this off topic message, but I feel that it
> could be of real service to many fellow builders.
>
> 7) I have one other request, if you participate in some other internet
> builder's group and you think that any of their members would benefit from
> this information would you please forward a copy of this posting to that
> group? Many thanks.
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
Why not take this issue directly to the various kit
manufacturers? If you can convince KIS, Van's, etc to
switch, then the supply problem cures itself & the cost per
screw will likely drop even more.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Proposed E-bus loads using Z-13 |
>>>Three questions: 1) Could I run this load on the SD-8 with the battery
contactor open to save the battery for the landing phase? 2) If the advice
would be to run this with the battery contactor closed, how fast would the
battery draw down?>>>
Oops. Looking at Z-13, I realize that these two questions aren't real
smart. Of course the contactor should be opened if the main alternator is
down, and the battery will assist with driving the E-bus and will draw down
if the E-bus loads exceed the juice supplied by the SD-8...So, my questions
are:
Does the E-bus configuration I proposed make sense? If not, why not, and
what alternative would you suggest?
Thanks,
Dan O'Brien, N624LD, Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT antenna location |
Some ELT antennas are being mounted back in the empenage pointing aft,
mounted on the small bulkhead just ahead of the horizontal stab. The
antenna radiates through the fiberglass fairing. A year or so ago, this was
discussed on the list and a few people agreed that it is quite unpredictable
at which attitude an airframe will end up, following an incident that causes
the unit to go off on it's own.
If you do it this way, I might suggest that you consider the length of
your (supplied) antenna cable before mounting the transmitter. (I learned
the hard way).
Tom Barnes -6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT antenna location
>
> I have the ACK ELT and am wondering where the antenna is being located
> since they recommend outside and vertical. I believe some are locating
> it inside but I am thinking if it is surrounded by aluminum that is
> effectively shielding the desired radiating rf pattern. If it is being
> mounted nearest the canopy, at what location is the antenna positioned?
> BTW I would prefer to have it inside.
>
> Dave Ford
> RV6
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
Are there any problems with connecting RG400 coax cable to RG58?
The harness that came with my GTX327 Garmin transponder has a 6 inch length
of RG58 cable.
I was planning on running RG400 coax from it to the transponder antenna
(about 5 feet of RG400 cable).
Thanks
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6 "final electical installation")
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bgravi <bgravi(at)cc.usu.edu> |
| Subject: | hi ,information about arcing requested |
Hi group,
Iam Ravi Gopal ,a graduate student in the Electrical and Computer Engineering
Department in Utah State University .Iam presently researching on arc fault
circuit breakers for aging aircraft wiring project.The link to the research is
as follows
http://www.engineering.usu.edu/ece/faculty/furse/COE/wiring/wiring.html
Iam presently looking for data on signatures of current during short
circuit,loose connections of wires ,frays on wires ,arcing etc .And also
looking in to the possibilty of using neural networks for finding the solution
We would really appreciate if any one could share the information regarding
the above topics with us.This will help us to focus our direction of research.
Thanking You
Ravi
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, CMDR David" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | sec: unclassified - TWO ALTERNATOR/TWO BATTERY SYSTEM |
Bob,
I look like having the new Jabiru 200hp engine in my RV7. It comes with a 25
amp permanent magnet alternator built into the flywheel. This will be
standby to a SD40 main alternator. I had been thinking of two batteries (one
big, one small) to avoid reliance on a low reliability device as single
point of failure.
My understanding of the need for an alternator to have a battery on line is
to avoid the fragility of an alternator supplying its own field power. Any
inrush current can seduce the field current and shut down the alternator.
However a permanent magnet alt supplies its own field, so can I continue
flight without a serviceable battery, or is it still needed to stabilise the
pm alternator output and stop the toys in the cockpit from failing on
unstable power?
Regards, David, VH-ZEE
Email: David.Francis(at)cbr.defence.gov.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Villi Seemann <villi.seemann(at)nordea.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/21/02 |
To : "Dave Grosvenor"
>
>I've been thinking about putting together a small circuit to display the
>altitude being sent by my transponder, something that I will "T" off the
>cable between the encoder and transponder. I have a list (which I beleive
>is correct) of the gray codes along with their corresponding altitudes.
>Does anyone know if there is a mathematical relationship between the gray
>code and the altitude, or would I simply have to use a look up table in my
>processor?
The gray code for altitude is sort of divided into two section with
different scemes.
The A-codes could be looked up, but it is less memory consuming to write a
small procedure to convert the B- and C-codes (+ 1 D-bit) into binary or
BCD. Bear in mind the code is offset i.e. code zero represents someplace
below surface.
The following is a bit of code (in Pascal) I used some time ago to convert
GrayCode to Binary
It should easily be rewritten to your favorite language/processor. I think I
once implemented it in a 8051 derivative, but cant find the code right now,
hope this helps.
{ transformation }
gh := g SHR 3;
bin{.<5>} := g{h} AND bit[5]; { set hi order bit }
FOR b := 4 DOWNTO 0 DO
bin := bin + (((bin SHR 1 ) AND bit[b]) XOR ( g{h} AND bit[b]));
WRITELN ( 'GRAY(',g,') = ',bin:3,'(bin)');
Regards
Villi H. Seemann
Senior Engineer
Infrastructure Network
Phone (+45) 3333 2101
FAX (+45) 3333 1130
CellPhn (+45)2220 7690
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Two alternator, one or two battery systems |
I have a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet 20 amp alternator in the
flywheel, and I am adding the SD20 spline driven alternator attached
directly to the crankshaft. B&C has specified that the SD20 can put out
20 amps in a 14 volt system at cruise rpm of 2700. Both of these units
put out 20 amps, and I suspect the SD20 is a bit more powerful at lower
rpms. I'm not sure which wiring diagram to adapt. The Jabiru J400 will
have an all electric panel, with few round mechanical gauges-but an
expanded scale voltmeter will be one of them. I don't want to carry two
big batteries, but could use a 5 amp-hr 14 volt battery for one of the
alternators. I do not have a hydraulic pump, electronic ignition, or
electric fuel pump. I would like to be able to run both alternators
simultaneously, as they are nearly the same rating. I want independant
indication of failure of either alternator. I prefer the fig. Z-13
e-bus with diode feed and alternate feed switch rather than using the
cross-feed contactor of fig. Z-14. Somehow, the cross-feed seems
complicated, and I wonder if a short of the main buss could fail the aux
buss, or vice versa. I don't want to worry about balancing the loads on
two separate busses, either. In another post Bob Nuckolls said that the
two battery system led to better redundancy, but it takes more skill to
operate. Could the aux alternator be on simultaneously with the main
alt in fig.Z-13? This more or less parallels the two, similar to fig.
17-7, but would only be done if the main alt, the SD20, could not carry
the load, and the SD20 warning lamp came on.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG 58 and RG400 |
>
>
>Are there any problems with connecting RG400 coax cable to RG58?
>
>The harness that came with my GTX327 Garmin transponder has a 6 inch length
>of RG58 cable.
>
>I was planning on running RG400 coax from it to the transponder antenna
>(about 5 feet of RG400 cable).
No problem . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude encoder gray codes |
>
>
> I hope this helps. I can post or email the complete table is there
>is interest, just let me know.
>
The tables are available at:
http://www.airsport-corp.com/modecascii.txt
The explanation of the bit usage is available
at:
http://www.airsport-corp.com/modec.htm
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thin wire ethernet for antennas |
>
>
>Would thin wire ethernet cable, rg-58 type 20 awg,
>be suitable for connecting antennas?
>Which ones?
RG-58 was the coax of choice for aircraft antennas
from about 1940 to 1990 . . . RG-400, RG-142
or other modern materials product is preferred
today.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Block Location Suggestions |
>
>
>Folks,
>
>I'm going to follow Bob's suggestion (this time!) and install the
>automotive-style fuse block (in a GlaStar). I believe the FARs require
>that the circuit breakers or fuses be within reach of the pilot. But I
>don't want to devote panel space to the fuses.
They do not. Read the rules (which don't apply to your airplane
anyhow) again.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Block Location Suggestions |
>
>Far 23.1357 d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse
>is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so
>located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight.
>
>So not all CB or fuses need to be accessible in flight by the pilot. just
>the ones that are essential to safety in flight.
. . . and . . . if we've done our homework, there are
NO single systems in our airplanes "essential" to safety
of flight. . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
The gray codes represent pressure altitude.
I have a Davrtron 825 that reads out pressure altitude from the encoder.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel mounted power jacks for hand-helds |
>
>
>
>I have a portable GPS that I plan to use in my Q200. I want to wire a 12V
>power outlet somewhere on the panel but want to use something better than a
>cigarette-lighter socket for the connection. I thought one of those airline
>Empower sockets would work well but I can't find anywhere to buy one. Anyone
>know a source for the sockets - I think they're ARINC 628?
>
>Dave
Unless you're trying to achieve some commonality with
the sockets on an airliner (don't think they'd be too
happy about having you plug your hand-held into a power
jack on a big iron bird), find something easy at
Radio Shack. Consider mounting a 274-1576 mounted
on your panel and a mating 274-1573 plug on the end
of your power cord to the hand-held. A more robust
combination is a 274-002 on the panel and a 274-001
on the cord. If you what something REALLY stout, put
a 274-013 on the panel and tip the cord with a 274-011.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: All Electric Airplanes |
>
>
>Bob and all those working on all electric systems:
>
>I would like to hear comments on a 2 bat/1 alt system vs.
>2 alt/1 bat. Bob seems to recommend replacing a battery once
>a year (given relatively low cost) and speaks very highly
>about reliability of current B&C alternators. This would
>seem to argue that the battery is the less reliable part of these
>systems; and if it fails the alternator won't be stable.
Let's not confuse "reliability" with "service life".
Tires wear out and get replaced every few hundred
hours or so. Oil gets tossed every 25 hours. An engine
gets tired and warrants an overhaul.
Reliability issues are always concerned with unanticipated
failure. But even when one suffers and unanticipated
failure of a major component, our goal is to architecture
a flight system that will tolerate that failure and still
let us put the wheels back on the ground without breaking
a sweat.
Just because you work on your airplane a lot doesn't mean
it's unreliable . . . it may have some maintenance issues
that you improve upon for convenience or cost-of-ownership
reasons . . . but if we do our homework on the system
design, these are not flight system reliability issues.
The recommendation for yearly change-out of a battery has
nothing to do with its reliability . . . it's based
on the relative difficulty of measuring the battery's
ability to do a very important task after it has been
in service for a period of time. I.e., this battery is
1 year old. Will it support the e-bus for 4 hours or more?
If you want to take the time and effort to do periodic
capacity tests on your battery and make a considered
decision as to when replacement is NECESSARY, then by all
means, run it until you've used it all up. But know that
this point will be reached long before the battery is
completely DEAD . . . the usual condition for calling
it a failure. In fact, this condition is not failure
but end-of-life. The REAL failure was on the part of
an owner-operator to watch the battery as carefully as
he watches the tread wear on his tires.
>So I would conclude that 2 bat/1 alt would be less likely
>to have complete failure; at the cost of a little more weight
>and in the event of alternator failure flight would be limited
>to battery reserve as opposed to the "unlimited" reserve of a 2 alt system.
What combination of things have to happen to get "complete
failure" in either system? If you loose everything in
either system it will be because you have failed to
make and maintain rudimentary connections to the battery
terminals. These connections should approach reliability
levels on a par with the bolts in your wing roots.
Given what I've observed of B&C alternators and RG batteries
in general over the past 10 years, I would be hard pressed
to justify a pronouncement that offered one technology
as more "reliable" than the other. Both of these products
have demonstrated quantum leaps in service life and reliability
over their certified ancestors. The difference between
alternators and batteries is that batteries will reach
end-of-life before the alternator will.
The yearly change-out suggestion is based on my personal
experience with the need to capacity test a battery.
Given that I can buy a 17 a.h. battery for less than the
cost of fuel for one trip, do I want to invest several
hours of time several times a year to track the inner
workings of this gizmo? I wouldn't choose to do so.
If you choose to do so, you will find that the battery
is very, very reliable cause you're going to take it
out of the airplane long before it stops cranking the
engine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Chalmers <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel mounted power jacks for hand-helds |
>
> >
> >I have a portable GPS that I plan to use in my Q200. I want
> to wire a 12V
> >power outlet somewhere on the panel but want to use
> something better than a
> >cigarette-lighter socket for the connection. I thought one
> of those airline
> >Empower sockets would work well but I can't find anywhere to
> buy one. Anyone
> >know a source for the sockets - I think they're ARINC 628?
> >
> >Dave
>
> Unless you're trying to achieve some commonality with
> the sockets on an airliner (don't think they'd be too
> happy about having you plug your hand-held into a power
> jack on a big iron bird), find something easy at
> Radio Shack. Consider mounting a 274-1576 mounted
> on your panel and a mating 274-1573 plug on the end
> of your power cord to the hand-held. A more robust
> combination is a 274-002 on the panel and a 274-001
> on the cord. If you what something REALLY stout, put
> a 274-013 on the panel and tip the cord with a 274-011.
>
Thanks for the suggestions Bob - the middle one is exactly what I was
looking for. I called the stocking distributors for those
EmPower/Hypertronics/ARINC628 connectors and neither had them in stock.
They're complicated connectors with 2 power pins and 5 signal pins. On
airline seats only 2 of the signal pins are used - to detect when the plug
is inserted and enable the seat power supply. I didn't get to the price -
since they're not readily available I figure they won't be cheap. Time for a
visit to Radio Shack.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 06/21/2002 2:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com "Cy Galley" writes:
6/24/2002
Hello Cy, Your posting is not relevant to the issue under discussion.
FAR Part 23.1(a) Airworthiness Standards says "This part prescribes
airworthiness standards for the issue of type certificates,...skip...".
FAR Part 23 regulates manufacturers and changers of type certificated
aircraft. It does not apply to the building (or flight operation) of amateur
built experimental aircraft.
However FAR Part 91 General Operating and Flight Rules does (mostly) apply
and the requirements per FAR 91.205(c)(6) Visual Flight Rules (night) are "
One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are
accessible to the pilot in flight."
My interpretation of that wording is that if the pilot can reach a fuse panel
from his position in flight then he is required by that FAR to have the spare
fuses for that panel where he can also reach them. There is nothing that says
he has to do anything about a burned out fuse in flight.
One way of solving the problem of not needing any spare fuses is to not put
any fuse panel where it is accessible to the pilot.
Once again I'd like to emphasize how difficult it is to just grab a few words
out of the FAR's and say "There it is -- it applies to (the building or the
operation of) our amateur built experimental aircraft".
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses in flight |
Since we have drawn swords. Most FARs to pertain to experimentals regardless
of the FAR that says they aren't seeing how experimentals aren't type
certificated.
All this means is you have to look as the individual issued operating
limitations. If they has that you will comply to a certain section of the
FARs then those FARs apply. I know it is weird but that is the way the FAA
does it.
Picking and choosing is the job of the issuer of your operating limitations
and airworthiness certificate.
Cy Galley - www.qcbc.org Webmaster
----- Original Message -----
From: <BAKEROCB(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuses in flight
In a message dated 06/21/2002 2:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com "Cy Galley"
writes:
6/24/2002
Hello Cy, Your posting is not relevant to the issue under discussion.
FAR Part 23.1(a) Airworthiness Standards says "This part prescribes
airworthiness standards for the issue of type certificates,...skip...".
FAR Part 23 regulates manufacturers and changers of type certificated
aircraft. It does not apply to the building (or flight operation) of amateur
built experimental aircraft.
However FAR Part 91 General Operating and Flight Rules does (mostly) apply
and the requirements per FAR 91.205(c)(6) Visual Flight Rules (night) are "
One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are
accessible to the pilot in flight."
My interpretation of that wording is that if the pilot can reach a fuse
panel
from his position in flight then he is required by that FAR to have the
spare
fuses for that panel where he can also reach them. There is nothing that
says
he has to do anything about a burned out fuse in flight.
One way of solving the problem of not needing any spare fuses is to not put
any fuse panel where it is accessible to the pilot.
Once again I'd like to emphasize how difficult it is to just grab a few
words
out of the FAR's and say "There it is -- it applies to (the building or the
operation of) our amateur built experimental aircraft".
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: All Electric Airplanes |
>Given that I can buy a 17 a.h. battery for less than the
cost of fuel for one trip.......
Great point Bob.
Puts it all in perspective.
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Block Location Suggestions |
> . . . and . . . if we've done our homework, there are
> NO single systems in our airplanes "essential" to safety
> of flight. . . .
Right on Robert!
I was wracking my wee brain trying to identify a system that met that
criteria and could not come up with one.
Thank you again for your words of wisdom
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Two alternator, one or two battery systems |
>
>
>I have a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet 20 amp alternator in the
>flywheel, and I am adding the SD20 spline driven alternator attached
>directly to the crankshaft. B&C has specified that the SD20 can put out
>20 amps in a 14 volt system at cruise rpm of 2700. Both of these units
>put out 20 amps, and I suspect the SD20 is a bit more powerful at lower
>rpms. I'm not sure which wiring diagram to adapt.
> The Jabiru J400 will
>have an all electric panel, with few round mechanical gauges-but an
>expanded scale voltmeter will be one of them. I don't want to carry two
>big batteries,
How "big" is a big battery? Certainly not two 24 a.h. but how
about a pair of 17 a.h.?
> but could use a 5 amp-hr 14 volt battery for one of the
>alternators.
If you want to use dissimilar batteries, then I'd go with
Z-14 except make the crossfeed connection via an S704 relay
or even a switch-breaker between the two busses. Use an
S704 relay for the small battery contactor. Don't use
both batteries for cranking.
> I do not have a hydraulic pump, electronic ignition, or
>electric fuel pump. I would like to be able to run both alternators
>simultaneously, as they are nearly the same rating. I want independant
>indication of failure of either alternator. I prefer the fig. Z-13
>e-bus with diode feed and alternate feed switch rather than using the
>cross-feed contactor of fig. Z-14. Somehow, the cross-feed seems
>complicated, and I wonder if a short of the main buss could fail the aux
>buss, or vice versa. I don't want to worry about balancing the loads on
>two separate busses, either.
Separate busses don't need to be balanced.
> In another post Bob Nuckolls said that the
>two battery system led to better redundancy, but it takes more skill to
>operate.
Why? The only time you need to close the cross feed contactor
is if one alternator has failed . . . and even then, if it's
the alternator that carries things like exterior lighting and
drives the main battery contactor, I'm not sure I would
bother to close the cross-feed. Just shut the main system down
and save the main battery until airport in sight whereupon
you can tap the main battery by re-closing the battery
contactor. If you have nav radios on the aux bus filtered
with a small battery, then you would close the cross-feed
contactor and reduce loads on the main bus to keep the main
alternator happy. If you include loadmeters, this is an easy
task.
> Could the aux alternator be on simultaneously with the main
>alt in fig.Z-13? This more or less parallels the two, similar to fig.
>17-7, but would only be done if the main alt, the SD20, could not carry
>the load, and the SD20 warning lamp came on.
Running two alternators simultaneously on the same bus
has presented problems that plagued the system designers
since alternators were first installed on the Barons and
C-310. That's a dragon that doesn't need slaying.
If it were my airplane, I think I'd use the modified Z-14
as described above and add ov protection plus low volts
warning to the PM alternator supplied with the engine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bob's Seminar at Watsonville |
Bob,
Thanks for the excellent presentation at Watsonville this past weekend. I
would highly recommend other builders attend one of your seminars if
possible. I now have more confidence and understanding to approach the
installation of my electrical system.
Byron Janzen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Vacuum pad driven alternators |
Just to throw something into the mix, another alternator option will
soon be available to those who are considering a SD8 or SD20. At
OshKosh this year, Kelly Aerospace will be displaying a 60A alternator
that mounts on a vacuum pump pad. I don't know yet whether it will fit
on a Lycoming pad because of the other stuff around it, but it does fit
the larger Continentals with the two pads at the top of the accessory
case. This alternator is able to achieve 60A on the slow turning vacuum
pump pad by means of some internal gearing that make the alternator run
faster than pad speed. My understanding is that it will be available
after OshKosh. I have no idea what the price is going to be but I'm
sure it will be competitive with the SD20.
David Swartzendruber
Kelly Aerospace
Aerospace Engineering Division
>
> I have a Jabiru 3300 with a permanent magnet 20 amp alternator in the
> flywheel, and I am adding the SD20 spline driven alternator attached
> directly to the crankshaft. B&C has specified that the SD20 can put
out
> 20 amps in a 14 volt system at cruise rpm of 2700. Both of these
units
> put out 20 amps, and I suspect the SD20 is a bit more powerful at
lower
> rpms. I'm not sure which wiring diagram to adapt. The Jabiru J400
will
> have an all electric panel, with few round mechanical gauges-but an
> expanded scale voltmeter will be one of them. I don't want to carry
two
> big batteries, but could use a 5 amp-hr 14 volt battery for one of the
> alternators. I do not have a hydraulic pump, electronic ignition, or
> electric fuel pump. I would like to be able to run both alternators
> simultaneously, as they are nearly the same rating. I want
independant
> indication of failure of either alternator. I prefer the fig. Z-13
> e-bus with diode feed and alternate feed switch rather than using the
> cross-feed contactor of fig. Z-14. Somehow, the cross-feed seems
> complicated, and I wonder if a short of the main buss could fail the
aux
> buss, or vice versa. I don't want to worry about balancing the loads
on
> two separate busses, either. In another post Bob Nuckolls said that
the
> two battery system led to better redundancy, but it takes more skill
to
> operate. Could the aux alternator be on simultaneously with the main
> alt in fig.Z-13? This more or less parallels the two, similar to fig.
> 17-7, but would only be done if the main alt, the SD20, could not
carry
> the load, and the SD20 warning lamp came on.
> Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Proposed E-bus loads using Z-13 |
>
>I've been thinking about scrapping the idea of having pitot heat on my
>E-bus and going with the SD-8 rather than the SD-20 for the second
>alternator. I wonder if folks could comment on using the SD-8 with the
>following tentative load requirements. All information on current comes
>from manufacturers' specs or from panel planner, although used the same
>number for the typical and maximum loads when only one number was
>given. My proposal:
>
> Typical Maximum
>UPS SL-15 Audio Panel .35 1.5
>UPS SL-30 Nav/Com
> Com Receiver
> (continuous?) .27 2
> Com Transmitter (continuous?) 2.1(*) 3.2
> Nav Receiver .325 .5
>UPS SL-70 Transponder .5 1.4
>TruTrak Autopilot (1 axis on) 2 2
>RC Allen Electric AI 1.2 1.2
>Electric Turn Coordinator .35 .35
>VM-1000 Engine Instruments .3 .3
>EI Fuel gauge .1 .1
>Panel & Reading Lights (guestimate) .2 .2
>
>Totals 7.695 12.75
.35A continuous draw for the audio panel seems high. Also
the 2.1A value for the transceiver . . . Transceivers
are just receivers except when the mic button is pushed so
I would expect the standby current to be on the order of .2 to
.5A for any transceiver. The autopilot will be pretty low
unless you're in turbulence so all-in-all, the list you have
presented looks comfortably doable.
If at any time one is running battery/SD-8 combination,
watch take a peek at the voltmeter (or have lv warning
on the e-bus too). If you can't keep the bus high enough
to unload the battery while en route . . . shut some things
off.
I think you'll find that the SD-8 is really an SD-10.
It's got some headroom over the advertised 8A rating.
Even if you CAN'T keep the bus voltage up, then only the
difference between SD-8 capability and loads will come
from the battery. If that's only an amp or two, you still
have tremendous endurance.
>I could substitute the UPS GX-60 GPS/Com for the SL-30 with about a .2 amp
>increase, but I figured I would have my battery-operated handheld GPS on
>board. Plus, I can live without the GPS heading information because the
>TruTrak has its own DG.
>
>So the typical load on the SD-8 would be just under 8 amps, right near its
>rating, and the maximum load (if everything happened at once I guess) would
>approach 13 amps, which is more than the alternator can handle.
You can't hurt it. The output simply sags and the battery takes
up the slack. These are transient conditions that do not figure
into the total energy requirements to get where you're going.
> Three
>questions: 1) Could I run this load on the SD-8 with the battery contactor
>open to save the battery for the landing phase?
This is the normal mode of operation for main-alt-out
conditions.
> 2) If the advice would be
>to run this with the battery contactor closed, how fast would the battery
>draw down? 3) Would you advise against this? If so, why, and what
>alternative would you suggest?
Contactor open until airport in sight. Then close the contactor
to run whatever goodies are deemed necessary or desirable
to complete the flight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: TWO ALTERNATOR/TWO BATTERY SYSTEM |
>
>
>Bob,
>I look like having the new Jabiru 200hp engine in my RV7. It comes with a 25
>amp permanent magnet alternator built into the flywheel. This will be
>standby to a SD40 main alternator. I had been thinking of two batteries (one
>big, one small) to avoid reliance on a low reliability device as single
>point of failure.
Which is your "low reliability device" . . .?
>My understanding of the need for an alternator to have a battery on line is
>to avoid the fragility of an alternator supplying its own field power. Any
>inrush current can seduce the field current and shut down the alternator.
Another important role of batteries is to FILTER the very trashy
power that comes out of every alternator. . .
>However a permanent magnet alt supplies its own field, so can I continue
>flight without a serviceable battery, or is it still needed to stabilise the
>pm alternator output and stop the toys in the cockpit from failing on
>unstable power?
Some PM alternators still need a battery on line for them
to come alive. The SD-8 is one. Don't know about others.
In any case, I think your concerns about battery reliability
for a properly maintained battery are unwarranted.
A figure Z-13 implementation with the SD-20 as the main
alternator is very robust.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: system criticality |
>
> > . . . and . . . if we've done our homework, there are
> > NO single systems in our airplanes "essential" to safety
> > of flight. . . .
>
>Right on Robert!
>
>I was wracking my wee brain trying to identify a system that met that
>criteria and could not come up with one.
Understand. I've asked wild-eyed government types this
question on several occasions . . . the answer I always
get is "if it's installed on an airplane, it IS critical" . . .
Obviously, some systems are quite necessary and/or
desirable . . . but all have failure modes that go
beyond keeping them powered up. Soooo . . . the only
true salvation is a second system whether it's bolted
to the panel or tucked away in your flight bag.
I've often offered them the notion that when I climb
into a rental airplane, I have no assurances whatsoever
that everything on the panel will be running at
my destination. None-the-less, it is my intention to
get where I originally set out to go . . . and the
stuff in my flight bag will fill in the gaps nicely
if needed.
Once the very necessary/desirable goodies are backed
up, no single system is critical.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Heatsink for diode |
Assuming an e-Bus loading of 7 to 10 amps, what would
be an appropriate heat-sink to use for the e-bus feed
diode?
Would this heat sink change for a higher load?
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Konrad Werner" <Connywerner(at)wans.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum pad driven alternators |
Dear David,
Do you have any PIX available on this Alternator, or maybe a website URL on
Kelly Aerospace?
Thanks,
Konrad
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum pad driven alternators
>
> Just to throw something into the mix, another alternator option will
> soon be available to those who are considering a SD8 or SD20. At
> OshKosh this year, Kelly Aerospace will be displaying a 60A alternator
> that mounts on a vacuum pump pad. I don't know yet whether it will fit
> on a Lycoming pad because of the other stuff around it, but it does fit
> the larger Continentals with the two pads at the top of the accessory
> case. This alternator is able to achieve 60A on the slow turning vacuum
> pump pad by means of some internal gearing that make the alternator run
> faster than pad speed. My understanding is that it will be available
> after OshKosh. I have no idea what the price is going to be but I'm
> sure it will be competitive with the SD20.
>
> David Swartzendruber
> Kelly Aerospace
> Aerospace Engineering Division
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <swedan(at)pcmagic.net> |
Bob,
Since I saw the note on the Watsonville seminar by Byron Janzen, I
realized that I hadn't seen any postings about your next one, so I went
to your website and copied the following. It's at Camarillo, CA,
September 21/22, 2002
Location: EAA Chapter 723
501 Aviation Drive
Camarillo, CA 93010
Phone: (805) 383-0686
Dan Branstrom
swedan(at)pcmagic.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Vacuum pad driven alternators |
Konrad,
The URL for Kelly Aerospace is www.kellyaerospace.com, but you won't
find any info about the pad driven alternator there. This alternator
was not developed at the facility I'm at, so I've never seen the real
thing. I might have some pictures of the computer model around that I
could email to you.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
> Dear David,
> Do you have any PIX available on this Alternator, or maybe a website
URL
> on
> Kelly Aerospace?
> Thanks,
> Konrad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heatsink for diode |
>
>Assuming an e-Bus loading of 7 to 10 amps, what would
>be an appropriate heat-sink to use for the e-bus feed
>diode?
>
>Would this heat sink change for a higher load?
This device will be pretty happy just mounted to
an aluminum surface for 5A or so. If you have
higher, continuous loads you might consider
mounting the diode on a heatsink similar to
the ones we use on our 1.5A dimmers
See . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/lighting/dim15-14.jpg
if you need this size heatsink and can't
find one from your favorite or local sources
I can probably get one off the production
line at B&C.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heatsink for diode - 1.5A dimmer |
Bob,
Looking at the picture of your 1.5a dimmer... why is
it that the one I bought from Vans Aircraft is much
smaller and has a tiny heat sink? It is also a 1.5a
dimmer.
If I cannot find a heat sink, could I make a simple
one from a 0.064" aluminum sheet (bent as a U)? What
size would be appropriate?
Michel
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
> Nuckolls, III"
>
> Therrien
> >
> >Assuming an e-Bus loading of 7 to 10 amps, what
> would
> >be an appropriate heat-sink to use for the e-bus
> feed
> >diode?
> >
> >Would this heat sink change for a higher load?
>
>
> This device will be pretty happy just mounted to
> an aluminum surface for 5A or so. If you have
> higher, continuous loads you might consider
> mounting the diode on a heatsink similar to
> the ones we use on our 1.5A dimmers
>
> See . . .
>
>
>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/lighting/dim15-14.jpg
>
> if you need this size heatsink and can't
> find one from your favorite or local sources
> I can probably get one off the production
> line at B&C.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> Forum -
> Contributions of
> any other form
>
> latest messages.
> other List members.
>
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> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
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>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heatsink for diode - 1.5A dimmer |
>
>Bob,
>
>Looking at the picture of your 1.5a dimmer... why is
>it that the one I bought from Vans Aircraft is much
>smaller and has a tiny heat sink? It is also a 1.5a
>dimmer.
it may be a switching type controller. They
run cooler but have a potential for noise.
>If I cannot find a heat sink, could I make a simple
>one from a 0.064" aluminum sheet (bent as a U)? What
>size would be appropriate?
Hmmm . . . I've built heatsinks but the biggest
problem is to get good thermal conductivity between
the multiple layers needed to fabricate a array
of "fins" . . . I'd rather you used a heatsink
from B&C.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Vacuum pad driven alternators |
> Has anyone investigated or even successfully adapted a 30-60 amp
> automotive alternator to a
> Lycoming vacuum pad similar to B&C? It would seem that with all the
> talent, expertise and
> curiosity in the homebuilt arena that unless there are some
fundamental
> engineering obstacles that
> this has at least been attempted.
The obstacles are not insurmountable, B&C is doing it. The B&C SD20 is
an adaptation of a 40A belt driven alternator, the L40. Unless you want
to go into the business of building alternators, it's not worth the time
and expense when something is already available.
Based on the Kelly info, can we assume
> that the available speed
> from the pump drive is insufficient to drive one of the alternators
> commonly used in RV's?
The alternators commonly belt driven on the front of a Lyc will turn
slower and have less max output if adapted to turn at vacuum pump pad
speeds. The 60A Kelly alternator is also 60A in it's belt driven
version.
Or
> perhaps the vacuum drive gearing is not robust enough to handle the
load
> of charging a weak battery
> (which I surmise would be the greatest load imposed on the alternator
with
> accessories operating)
If the pad can't handle full output of the alternator, the alternator
shouldn't be on the pad. Does anyone have the Max torque rating for the
vac pump pad on a Lyc? I know the larger Continentals have more than
enough torque available for a 60A alternator.
>
> Do the B&C units use gearing to achieve a higher speed and is their
output
> limited by torque
> limitations of the accessory drivetrain?
The SD20 is not geared. It is limited due to rpm available at the pad,
not torque. I don't know how close to the torque limit it is.
What is the normal operating
> speed range of the vacuum
> pump?
>
All the specs I've seen on Lyc's have it turning at 1.3 x crankshaft.
The Continental specs I've seen say 1.5 x crankshaft.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum pad driven alternators |
I realize that when adapting a piece of hardware from one
type of installation to another, a big goal is to change the
piece of hardware as little as possible. However, this
discussion makes me ask the question "Exactly what about an
alternator determines its current and voltage output - power?"
Certainly the RPM that the windings pass through the magnetic
field has some effect. Additionally, the number of windings
passing through the field should be involved. And finally, the
size of the wire in the windings should probably considered if
longevity is a goal.
If you wanted to turn an alternator slower than originally designed,
would it be practical to rewind it so that it has more windings? It
seems like that might increase its output.
Matt-
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:32 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum pad driven alternators
>
>
> > Has anyone investigated or even successfully adapted a 30-60 amp
> > automotive alternator to a
> > Lycoming vacuum pad similar to B&C? It would seem that with all
> the> talent, expertise and
> > curiosity in the homebuilt arena that unless there are some
> fundamental
> > engineering obstacles that
> > this has at least been attempted.
>
> The obstacles are not insurmountable, B&C is doing it. The B&C
> SD20 is
> an adaptation of a 40A belt driven alternator, the L40. Unless you
> wantto go into the business of building alternators, it's not worth
> the time
> and expense when something is already available.
>
> Based on the Kelly info, can we assume
> > that the available speed
> > from the pump drive is insufficient to drive one of the alternators
> > commonly used in RV's?
>
> The alternators commonly belt driven on the front of a Lyc will turn
> slower and have less max output if adapted to turn at vacuum pump pad
> speeds. The 60A Kelly alternator is also 60A in it's belt driven
> version.
>
> Or
> > perhaps the vacuum drive gearing is not robust enough to handle the
> load
> > of charging a weak battery
> > (which I surmise would be the greatest load imposed on the
> alternatorwith
> > accessories operating)
>
> If the pad can't handle full output of the alternator, the alternator
> shouldn't be on the pad. Does anyone have the Max torque rating
> for the
> vac pump pad on a Lyc? I know the larger Continentals have more than
> enough torque available for a 60A alternator.
>
> >
> > Do the B&C units use gearing to achieve a higher speed and is their
> output
> > limited by torque
> > limitations of the accessory drivetrain?
>
> The SD20 is not geared. It is limited due to rpm available at the
> pad,not torque. I don't know how close to the torque limit it is.
>
> What is the normal operating
> > speed range of the vacuum
> > pump?
> >
> All the specs I've seen on Lyc's have it turning at 1.3 x crankshaft.
> The Continental specs I've seen say 1.5 x crankshaft.
>
> David Swartzendruber
> Wichita
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heatsink for diode - 1.5A dimmer |
Hi Bob,
I found a heatsink identical to the one of your dimmer
locally at a surplus store (6.95$CDN). I also have
another one which is about twice the cooling surface
(height). However, they (both of them) are
pre-drilled for TO-3 cases, which mean that there will
be a couple of holes in the contact surface.
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>I'd rather you used a heatsink
> from B&C.
>
> Bob . . .
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | FAR's that apply |
In a message dated 06/25/2002 2:53:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com "Cy Galley" writes:
< Since we have drawn swords. Most FARs to pertain to experimentals regardless
of the FAR that says they aren't seeing how experimentals aren't type
certificated. All this means is you have to look as the individual issued
operating
limitations. If they has that you will comply to a certain section of the
FARs then those FARs apply. I know it is weird but that is the way the FAA
does it. Picking and choosing is the job of the issuer of your operating
limitations
and airworthiness certificate. Cy Galley >
6/25/2002
Hello Cy, No swords drawn here nor any intended -- just stating the facts and
citing and quoting the regulations that do apply. Please let me make four
points:
1) No operating limitation can be legally / properly issued that would permit
the builder / pilot of an amateur built experimental aircraft to violate an
applicable FAR.
2) While the amateur built experimental aircraft is under construction it may
be years before the final inspection is performed. The builder may not know
who the inspector will be or what the inspector's personal biases may be
regarding the wording of the operating limitations. So the logical thing for
the builder to do is to construct the aircraft so that it will comply with
the regulations that he knows will clearly apply and not waste his time /
money attempting to comply with a regulation that clearly does not apply.
Obtaining guidance or an opinion from the local FSDO on construction matters
is certainly appropriate, but may not be the final word.
3) If the inspector insists that the aircraft is not constructed in
accordance with some FAR that does not apply and says he will not issue the
operating limitations until it does then the builder has the option of
getting a different inspector or carrying the issue up the FAA chain of
command for proper resolution.
4) We have a lot of readers / builders in the amateur builder's community who
are new to aviation and unfamiliar with the FAA bureaucracy and the FAR's.
When one of them asks a question in this forum they deserve an accurate
answer. If the answer involves some gray area requiring judgement or
interpretation of the regulations then they deserve to know that and to have
the opportunity to resolve it for themselves
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heatsink for diode - 1.5A dimmer |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I found a heatsink identical to the one of your dimmer
>locally at a surplus store (6.95$CDN). I also have
>another one which is about twice the cooling surface
>(height). However, they (both of them) are
>pre-drilled for TO-3 cases, which mean that there will
>be a couple of holes in the contact surface.
This will not materially affect the
heat-sinking. Get some silicon grease
or other transistor heat-sinking
uckum-yucky to put into the interface
between diode mounting surface and the
heat sink.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum pad driven alternators |
>
> >>David Swartzendruber wrote:
>
> >>Kelly Aerospace will be displaying a 60A alternator that mounts on a
> vacuum pump pad
>
>Has anyone investigated or even successfully adapted a 30-60 amp
>automotive alternator to a
>Lycoming vacuum pad similar to B&C? It would seem that with all the
>talent, expertise and
>curiosity in the homebuilt arena that unless there are some fundamental
>engineering obstacles that
>this has at least been attempted. Based on the Kelly info, can we assume
>that the available speed
>from the pump drive is insufficient to drive one of the alternators
>commonly used in RV's? Or
>perhaps the vacuum drive gearing is not robust enough to handle the load
>of charging a weak battery
>(which I surmise would be the greatest load imposed on the alternator with
>accessories operating)
>
>Do the B&C units use gearing to achieve a higher speed and is their output
>limited by torque
>limitations of the accessory drivetrain? What is the normal operating
>speed range of the vacuum
>pump?
Dave S. has pretty well covered this in his post earlier
today. I was at Electro-Mech about 1980 when we did the
standby generator for the A-36. It was a piece of junk
but the best that Electro-Mech could produce with tools
and talents of the time. The generator was a derivation of
a 3" diameter motor that we adapted to a generator design.
I think it put out about 6 amps. We had a shorter version
for the C-210 that was only good for 4.5A. We had a devil
of a time getting shear-shafts to last. After the shaft
failures were whipped, then brush life became an issue.
By-and-large, that product should have been replaced a
long time ago . . . but once certified, even junk gets
elevated to respectable status. The biggest hurdle
in terms of output was the pedestrian 3900 to 4000
RPM pad speeds. Gearing was out of the question and
would have nearly doubled the already exorbitant cost
of this machine.
The advent of tiny ND alternators and their relatively
amazing ability to deliver useful output at 4KRPM
made this new product fly. It has about 3x the output
of the old generator and doesn't need external cooling
to do the job. Further, it's relatively robust output
compared to the generator let us install it with
wiring like Figure Z-13 which is easy to retrofit
to most certified ships without chop and hack
on the bus structures.
As Dave said, we're trapped in limitations of the
physics here. The only way you'll get more snort is to
speed the critter up or increase the diameter. The later
option is generally out. Gears in the drive train of
recip-engines give me the willies . . . but if someone
can demonstrate a degree of service life and reliability
commensurate with the cost adding the gear box, more
power to them.
Before I went off and bought a 60A stand-by system
at any price, I'd have to do some soul-searching
on the real need for this kind of redundant power.
Keep in mind that the biggest market for this
product are certified iron owners who KNOW their
existing alternators are junk. We have the luxury
of flying primary systems with perhaps an order of
magnitude better service life. Further, we enjoy
greater latitude in the use of logic to decide what
is really necessary for the comfortable completion
of any given flight.
My buddies flying around in the heavy iron might
truly benefit from this kind of product. I don't think
I would in my homebuilt - why spend dollars and carry
weight of a system that you don't need and may have
a lower order of reliability due to parts count increase
and lower order of service life due more high-stress,
wear prone parts?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Vacuum pad driven alternators |
>
>
>Yes, to optimize a design for a particular rpm, you would rewind it.
>The output of an SD20 could be improved on if it were specifically
>designed for the rpm it lives at. It would not be a huge improvement
>though. To get the same output that the L40 gets at higher rpm, the
>SD20 would be much bigger and heavier. Higher rpm makes all the parts
>get smaller, (another Kelly project is getting 300A at 28V in an
>alternator with a 1.7 in. dia rotor - 100,000 rpm).
A target I used to work on at Hughes about 1962 had a PM
alternator driven by a liquid nitrogen turbine. The rotor
was about 1" in diameter and the alternator put out about
200 watts to power the target. Don't recall the operating
speed (if I ever knew it) but it had to be pretty damned
fast. It only had to run about 30 seconds. If the missile
hadn't taken its target down by that time, it wasn't going to.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum pad driven alternators |
> Before I went off and bought a 60A stand-by system
> at any price, I'd have to do some soul-searching
> on the real need for this kind of redundant power.
> Further, we enjoy
> greater latitude in the use of logic to decide what
> is really necessary for the comfortable completion
> of any given flight.
>
I concur with Bob that 20A should be plenty of standby power for the
aircraft we're talking about. A 60A output would give you the option of
using it for primary power though. The Jabiru people, who probably don't
get a full 20A from the SD20, may like the options this geared alternator
would give, (if it fits).
> My buddies flying around in the heavy iron might
> truly benefit from this kind of product.
The heavy iron people like the idea of losing an alternator, and still
being able to operate all systems in the normal manner. I think it might
have to do with anticipating that idiots will buy a lot of their airplanes,
and their next of kin might not understand how reasonable it is to shed some
loads when an alternator fails.
> I don't think
> I would in my homebuilt - why spend dollars and carry
> weight of a system that you don't need and may have
> a lower order of reliability due to parts count increase
> and lower order of service life due more high-stress,
> wear prone parts?
Only time will tell how well the gearbox lasts.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net> |
| Subject: | Loss of Batt Contactor in Fig Z-12 |
Hi Bob,
In numerous places you say "alternators don't run well without a
battery"...What exactly does this mean for Z-12 architecture if you lose
your battery contactor? Can I assume that in Z-12, the primary B&C 60A alt.
and backup SD-20 alternator would both be useless under this failure
scenario and you would be left with only your essential bus powered off the
battery? If that is indeed the case, wouldn't the slightly more complicated
and marginally more expensive Z-14 be MUCH more reliable/redundant as either
alternator would be capable of running off either battery in case of a
failed contactor... Worded another way: If you're already planning a dual
alternator (B&C 60A + SD-20) system, is there any reason to go with the Z-12
architecture over the Z-14 architecture if you can live with the small
increases in added weight, cost and complexity of Z-14...
On another note, I plan on having initially one electronic ignition and one
mag...eventually possibly going to dual electronic ignition after using the
mags I already have. Would adding an aux battery & bus (to power the second
electronic ign) to Z-12 be a relatively easy modification or do you think it
would make more sense to just start out with the dual alt/dual batt/split
bus Z-14 system?
Any thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks again for the great list!!! I'm
drawn to it daily even though I'm a long way off from doing my electrical
system...
Brian S.
Glasair SIIRG
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | redundancy. redundancy. but I repeat myself. |
In a message dated 6/25/02 09:13:39 PM, dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net writes:
<< before I went off and bought a 60A stand-by system at any price, I'd have
to do some soul-searching on the real need for this kind of redundant power.
Further, we enjoy greater latitude in the use of logic to decide what is
really necessary for the comfortable completion of any given flight. >>
Ya, know, I just don't get all this reduncancy stuff. I've been flying for
30 years. I've had 1 vacuum pump failure (in over 2000 hours of flying) on a
pump with a 1000 hrs on it. I was IFR. It was no big deal. I was trained
to watch for instruments that failed and knew what to do. I had an
alternator fail, too. I noticed the ammeter wildly oscillating; I was also
taught to look at the engine gauges periodically. I landed at my
destination, had a nice weekend, then flew the 2 hrs home. I shut everything
off and only used the radio when I was within 10 miles of my home base.
Again, no big deal.
I've also had a starter fail (1500 hrs on it), a radio fail, an intercom
fail, a transponder fail (two of these), an antenna fail, a landing light
fail. Really, no big deal; you get to where you're going, and you get it
fixed. All of these failures were due to either old equipment or poor
installation by a radio shop. The old equipment was due to neglect. The
plane was old. Cheaping out getting newer equipment cost me more in the long
run. The radio shop was cutting corners to make money.
I know of people who carry extra parts with them where ever they go. Parts
like, an extra fuel pump, extra mags (2), extra vacuum pump, extra drive
belts, oil, filters, tools, plugs, wire, connectors, screws, tires, tubes,
handheld radios (multiple), now hand held GPSs, and the list goes on and on.
You can't plan for everything or every failure. An extra alternator adds one
more failure point. And weight, and less rate of climb, and greater fuel
burn, and less useful load... A standby vacuum adds a hole into your intake
manifold. Another failure point. Not to mention the associated cables,
hoses, wires, which make maintenance a nightmare.
An Avionics Master adds a single point failure point that NO ONE wants to
admit. It's like a holy grail of some sort. Some guy did it in 1960 and now
we all need one. Let's not talk about the real reason it's even there or the
fact that it isn't needed.
Like entropy; add-ons to airplanes just keeps growing. And, with it, there
goes the performance, useful load, ecomomy, simplicity and everything else I
hear complaints about.
Let's don't forget the KISS principle.
Oh, goody, now I've really stirred the pot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loss of Batt Contactor in Fig Z-12 |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
> In numerous places you say "alternators don't run well without a
>battery"...What exactly does this mean for Z-12 architecture if you lose
>your battery contactor? Can I assume that in Z-12, the primary B&C 60A alt.
>and backup SD-20 alternator would both be useless under this failure
>scenario and you would be left with only your essential bus powered off the
>battery?
Yes. That is why the All Electric Airplane on a
Budget architecture is so attractive. The SD-8 is inexpensive,
light, bypasses the battery contactor and supplies enough
snort to run LOTS of goodies. Now, just because the battery
contactor fails to do the designed function doesn't mean the
alternator(s) quit.
Remember, an alternator needs a source of field voltage which
is the same bus that the alternator powers. IF . . . you hit
the bus with a high inrush load (landing light, certainly a
hydraulic pump, etc) with no battery to fill in the gap for
a few tens of milliseconds, the bus could sag sufficiently
to starve the field supply which drops the bus voltage which
starves the field supply even more. The effect is precipitous.
The alternator quits and without a battery, it doesn't come
back.
Even if the alternator says on line, loss of battery always
degrades stability of the voltage regulator and the bus voltage
jumps around more. Filtering action of the battery is lost
too and the bus become noisier. Sooooo . . . if one has
managed to get an STC to put an SD-20 on a certified ship
like a C210 or Bonanza, the next thing I would do is get an STC
to add an aux battery.
Once you go the dollars and weight to put the SD-20 on an
amateur built aircraft, I'd go for the extra battery too . . .
whether it's an aux battery in parallel with the main
battery al la Z-12 or a dual-battery/dual-alternator installation
like Figure Z-14 (even if the second battery is small like
we discussed earlier).
>If that is indeed the case, wouldn't the slightly more complicated
>and marginally more expensive Z-14 be MUCH more reliable/redundant as either
>alternator would be capable of running off either battery in case of a
>failed contactor... Worded another way: If you're already planning a dual
>alternator (B&C 60A + SD-20) system, is there any reason to go with the Z-12
>architecture over the Z-14 architecture if you can live with the small
>increases in added weight, cost and complexity of Z-14...
You got it.
>On another note, I plan on having initially one electronic ignition and one
>mag...eventually possibly going to dual electronic ignition after using the
>mags I already have. Would adding an aux battery & bus (to power the second
>electronic ign) to Z-12 be a relatively easy modification or do you think it
>would make more sense to just start out with the dual alt/dual batt/split
>bus Z-14 system?
If you don't mind the dollars and weight budget, the Z-14 or Z-14A
architecture will provide the highest margin of comfort. But if
you're going to use up both mags before you put a second electronic
ignition on, you may be very close to selling the airplane before
you need to upgrade the system . . . perhaps Z-13 has a good chance
of supplying your needs for many hundreds of hours. When the second
electronic ignition goes in, add a small aux battery al la Z-30.
Don't get me wrong, the SD-20 is a fine piece of machinery but if
you're making $tradeoffs$ between what useful goodies you're planning
to put on the panel and the ability to shovel lots of electrons, maybe
your best return on investment would be with the smaller second
alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
Bob,
I've had a fun time following your fuses versus circuit breakers debate for
years... its an interesting discussion but I have to say I'm still stuck on
CBs for some things.... I've submitted these comments before but don't see
them anywhere in your "Fuses and Breakers Fiddle with them in Flight?"
article on the web. Recently I had another electrical problem in my plane
that brought this issue to light once again. And interestingly this one --
the third of three inflight electrical problems I've had in my 1000+ hours of
flying, was also one where a CB provided some advantage over a fuse. Here
then are my three failures (and one "bonus" scenario") that constitute my
"pro-CB" argument:
1) Flying along near dusk in an old spam can. Suddenly: foul smell of smoke
in the cockpit! Looking around I could see nothing amiss. But then my eyes
spied the "cockpit lights" circuit breaker which had popped. This told me
two things immediately: a) the problem was with the cockpit light circuit
Handy to know BEFORE it got dark and I went to turn on the lights.
What would you have known before it got dark had the light bulb
been burned out . . . or if instead of being a wire overloaded
enough to smoke it, it had been an open wire that was simply
unhooked? The kinds of failures that are passive and simply
cause the system to not work out-number the faults that pop
breakers by 3-100 times depending on complexity of the system.
b) The problem with the smoke was likely solved by the CB popping, thus not
necessarily cause for excess fear and distraction from that point until
landing. If it had been a fuse, I would have spent time and worry wondering
what the problem was -- might have even ended up making a forced landing
since I wasn't sure whether there was something that a CB hadn't taken care of.
If it had been a fuse, the overload may have popped the fuse before
the circuit even got hot enough to smoke . . . fuses are much faster
than circuit breakers. Forced landing? . . . in the spam can,
you had few options for dealing with such a problem. At first sign
of smoke in a homebuilt, I would hope that one could take the whole
electrical system down and then bring up the e-bus only to see
if that isolates the problem. If the problem is on the e-bus, I'd
let 'er smoke . . . the 99.9% probability for smoke from the kinds
of products that occupy the e-bus are internal failures that take
out low energy components like resistors, etc and represent no
hazard.
As it was I proceeded to the next safe landing spot relatively
unperturbed, since the combination of the popped CB and dissipation of the
smoke smell gave me reasonable confidence that there was not a continuing
threat of fire.
Yep . . . this story has been repeated thousands of times by others
who had few options with respect to the ownership and operation of their
certified airplanes. These are the ones we tend to remember when
it comes to talking about circuit breakers . . . we don't remember
the stories where a pilot was in a similar situation with a dead system
wherein the breaker was NOT popped. They are most certainly more
numerous if we hear about them at all . . . most of the time we
don't . . . #1 system quit, the backup gets you home. Happens hundreds
of times every day in aviation but too dull a story to write up in the
magazines.
2) Radio quit. No indicaiton why. Landed NORDO on light signals. Found a
burned-out fuse, replaced it, radio worked. Test-flew it and the radio
worked but eventually the same thing happened. Problem traced to a loose
screw inside the radio that was intermittently shorting and blowing the fuse.
Not good to let this go but resetting the fuse in this case would have
prevented me having to land NORDO.
Again, you won the lottery of passive versus active failures in the
radio. If you launch today with one radio in panel, do you not
have one in the flight bag too?
3) Years later, in a new homebuilt plane with a nearly new radio, virtually
the same scenario as 2). This one turned out to be an improperly insulated
part in the radio that was intermittently shorting against the housing. Same
as before -- would short then work, and again, a CB would save at least
having to go NORDO (assuming a single-radio craft) the first time it
happened. Not a critical problem (and I DO carry a handheld now!) but still
nice to be able to reset an intermittent radio to help get back without undue
hassle.
The stories of successful completion of flights after being able
to reset a breaker are numerous . . . and they tend to make us
believe that this functionality is a desirable goal in the design
of our airplanes.
4) Working on the plane I find the CBs VERY handy -- I don't have a separate
switch for my TC for example, but who wants that thing powering up (and
draining the battery) every time I turn on the master to listen to the radio
or work on some part of my electrical system? I could pull the fuse but its
so much easier to pull a breaker right on the panel.
. . . if this is the only breaker you need to pull during
ground maintenance, why not a switch? Or if the additional drain
is really an issue, why not a ground power supply so it doesn't
matter? Most of the airplanes I've worked on, I can reach behind
the panel and very easily spin a connector off the T/C. I don't
find the need to control one or two items as a matter of convenience
a strong rational for installing a bunch of breakers . . . most of which
never need to be pulled and will never trip in the lifetime of the
airplane . . . yet they add parts count, weight, cost, time to
fabricate and take up otherwise useful panel space.
I will admit to the relative reliability of fuses over CBs however! The
only other failure I've had in my NEW RV-6 is a CB that went belly
up at 200 hrs. Damned annoying, that!
Thanks for your inspiration and for being so willing to share your
experience and knowledge with others!
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
I've been watching this debate for about a year and don't really want to
jump in the fray. With apologies to Bob for not listening, I used CB's for
one and only one reason. I like the way they look in the panel.
just my .02 worth.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: redundancy. redundancy. but I repeat myself. |
>>>Ya, know, I just don't get all this reduncancy stuff...
Like entropy; add-ons to airplanes just keeps growing. And, with it, there
goes the performance, useful load, ecomomy, simplicity and everything else
I hear complaints about. Let's don't forget the KISS principle. Oh, goody,
now I've really stirred the pot. >>>
>>>Great way to put an end to all the chatter about redundancy! The fewer
systems there are the fewer failures to experience. You guys in 'au'
country have some good ideas, from Jabiru on.>>>
When I was in college, I was in a musical group that sang a cute little
song in the library each semester during final exams about the logic of
preventive action, i.e., studying:
"The more you study, the more you know,
the more you know, the more you forget,
the more you forget, the less you know,
so whyyyyyy studeeeeee.
The less you study the less you know,
the less you know the less you forget,
the less you forget, the more you know,
so whyyyyyyyyy study."
To me, saying that the desire for redundancy simply creates greater
opportunity for systems to fail is a little like the song --- you might as
well not study because then you'll just have more to forget and will
probably do worse on the test. I guess I would agree that too much
redundancy makes things too complicated, but is it too much to ask for one
backup for such a critical system? Would you take off with one good mag?
Just stirring the other way a bit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <Rob(at)RobsGlass.com> |
| Subject: | Keeping things simple. |
I'm into the fuse and beginning to thing about my wiring
"Like entropy; add-ons to airplanes just keeps growing. And, with it,
there
goes the performance, useful load, ecomomy, simplicity and everything
else I
hear complaints about.
Let's don't forget the KISS principle.
Oh, goody, now I've really stirred the pot. "
This got me thinking as no doubt was intended. I'm planning a simple
panel but would like two radios. Either two panel mounts or one and a
wired in hand held, each with its own antenna. I would like an intercom
and probably some music too!
Do I really need the cost/failure point/complexity of an audio panel?
Suggestions from the guru, Bob), and the collective wisdom of the list
will be much appreciated.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
RV9A N919RV resvd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
From: "Rob W M Shipley" <Rob(at)RobsGlass.com>
I'm planning a simple
> panel but would like two radios. Either two panel mounts or one and a
> wired in hand held, each with its own antenna. I would like an intercom
> and probably some music too!
> Do I really need the cost/failure point/complexity of an audio panel?
> Suggestions from the guru, Bob), and the collective wisdom of the list
> will be much appreciated.
> Rob
Rob:
My RV4 has a GPS/com, a VOR/com, a PSI intercom and no audio panel. The
transmitter is selected with a small toggle switch. I can monitor one or
both coms with the respective volume controls. This setup has proved to be
simple, and very user friendly particularly when flying formation or into
busy airports. While I know many folks enjoy music in their airplanes I
think there are too many other important audio inputs that will improve
situational awareness.
Dick Sipp
N250DS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Van's ammeter FYI |
hi listers,
I found out the hard way, and by good luck, that what seems to be the
logical way to wire up this meter dosn't work.
I am using the main bus/essential bus scheme promoted by Bob Nuckolls.
The two busses are connected by a big diode. These are electronic gauges
and get a power and ground in addition to the sense pin(s). It seems
logical to power the gauges, including the ammeter, from the essential
bus but this dosn't work for the ammeter, the meter will show a huge
discharge. Moving the ammeter power lead to the main bus will fix it.
I think that the problem is that the 1 volt drop across the diode causes
the sense pins to be at a higher voltage than the power source which
boggles the circuit.
Jim Bean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's ammeter FYI |
>
>hi listers,
>I found out the hard way, and by good luck, that what seems to be the
>logical way to wire up this meter dosn't work.
>
>I am using the main bus/essential bus scheme promoted by Bob Nuckolls.
>The two busses are connected by a big diode. These are electronic gauges
>and get a power and ground in addition to the sense pin(s). It seems
>logical to power the gauges, including the ammeter, from the essential
>bus but this dosn't work for the ammeter, the meter will show a huge
>discharge. Moving the ammeter power lead to the main bus will fix it.
>
>I think that the problem is that the 1 volt drop across the diode causes
>the sense pins to be at a higher voltage than the power source which
>boggles the circuit.
Hmmm . . . is there any place on the net I can see the installation
schematic for this product? Or can you fax me a copy?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
>
>I've been watching this debate for about a year and don't really want to
>jump in the fray. With apologies to Bob for not listening, I used CB's for
>one and only one reason. I like the way they look in the panel.
>just my .02 worth.
Nothing wrong with that! I did a wirebook for a guy
building a BD-10 who wanted a military style cockpit
and he couldn't be happier about the number of breakers
I called out. Don't think the beast was ever built
but it shore was gonna look good.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
In a message dated 6/26/02 06:07:26 PM, Rob(at)RobsGlass.com writes:
<< Do I really need the cost/failure point/complexity of an audio panel?
Suggestions from the guru, Bob), and the collective wisdom of the list
will be much appreciated. >>
I've asked myself this same question a number of times. In todays GA
airplanes, there really isn't much need for DME, ADF, 3 Navs, 3 Coms, AUX, or
a host of the bells and whistles included in the lasted audio panels from
Garmin, UPS, etc.
What I need most is a 4-place intercom (doesn't need to be stero) that has
marker beacon, and 2 coms. Maybe 1 Nav. I don't really care if the copilot
can talk on one freq, while I talk on the other one either.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
In a message dated 6/26/02 02:40:53 PM, rswan19(at)comcast.net writes:
<< I like the way they look in the panel. just my .02 worth. >>
I had a case where I'd wished I could have easily changed to a bigger fuse
but was stck with a circuit breaker that may be bad or just overly sensitive
(I try talking nice to it... )
Looks aside, fuse holders and just a pain in the a$$ to remove and replace.
And. More to the point. They all mount from the outside with soldered on
connection in the back. Does anyone make a good looking fuse/fuse holder
setup that mounts from behind (through the panel) and has screw on connectors?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
>What I need most is a 4-place intercom (doesn't need to be stero) that has
>marker beacon, and 2 coms. Maybe 1 Nav. I don't really care if the copilot
>can talk on one freq, while I talk on the other one either. \
I've already got the 2 place intercom that I need. I just need switches to
xmit on com 1 or 2, and listen to com 1, com 2 and nav. Anybody got a
diagram I can use?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
Soldered connectors? The fuse holders I'm using do
not have soldeded connections and they take zero panel
space. I may have missed something in the beginning
of this exchange, but I feel that Bob's fuse blocs is
a good choice.
I will have no two circuits sharing a single fuse...
so if one blows, I will loose only the circuit
protected by that fuse. Sometimes, on panel mounted
breakers or fuse, some circuits share a common
protecting device.
Anyway, here is a picture of the fuse bloc I'm
installing:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/fuseblks.jpg
And this is where I installed mine:
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/images/Dcp01416.jpg
They are installed on a hinged panel under the
instruments panel. When they are tilted up, the panel
looks like that:
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/daypict.jpg
(note that this picture may change any day)
Michel
--- Aucountry(at)aol.com wrote:
> Looks aside, fuse holders and just a pain in the a$$
> to remove and replace.
> And. More to the point. They all mount from the
> outside with soldered on
> connection in the back.
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
I'll jump into this with my suggestion. I debated with this for a long
while and decided on an Apollo SL-30 Nav Com. This radio allows
you to monitor the standby frequency like a second radio. I will
use my handheld as backup with a jack into the antenna like Bob
shows somewhere. I needed no audio panel and I used a Nat
intercom with music input that has a separate volume control. I
just installed the panel so I can't say how everything will function
yet.
Jim
N79R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Keeping things simple. |
Rob,
I went down this road, too. The decision was made for me when UPS came out
with the SL-40 comm radio. This radio allows you to monitor the standby
frequency, giving you the functionality of two radios. Less expense, less
complex wiring and maybe more reliable. My second radio will be a handheld
with alkaline batteries. Also, I mounted the comm. antenna on my RV-6 on
the belly in reach of the pilot so that the handheld can use the external
antenna if needed.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 21 hours
This got me thinking as no doubt was intended. I'm planning a simple
panel but would like two radios. Either two panel mounts or one and a
wired in hand held, each with its own antenna. I would like an intercom
and probably some music too!
Do I really need the cost/failure point/complexity of an audio panel?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
Hi Michel,
Though I have not implemented it yet, I have been planning to use the
same solution you describe and show. So far, I have made a mock-up to
convince myself that it will work on my RV-6A. A fuse panel hinged to
the instrument panel will also the Aeroelectric fuse blocks. In the -6A,
the subpanel is just 9" behind the instrument panel. Camlok fasteners
will hold the fuse panel in the retracted postion.
Glad to see that someone else finds the idea attractive.
I'm curious to know what plane you're building.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
RV-6A panel, N331RD reserved
Michel Therrien wrote:
>
>
> Soldered connectors? The fuse holders I'm using do
> not have soldeded connections and they take zero panel
> space. I may have missed something in the beginning
> of this exchange, but I feel that Bob's fuse blocs is
> a good choice.
>
> I will have no two circuits sharing a single fuse...
> so if one blows, I will loose only the circuit
> protected by that fuse. Sometimes, on panel mounted
> breakers or fuse, some circuits share a common
> protecting device.
>
> Anyway, here is a picture of the fuse bloc I'm
> installing:
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/fuseblks.jpg
>
> And this is where I installed mine:
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/images/Dcp01416.jpg
>
> They are installed on a hinged panel under the
> instruments panel. When they are tilted up, the panel
> looks like that:
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/daypict.jpg
> (note that this picture may change any day)
>
> Michel
>
> --- Aucountry(at)aol.com wrote:
> > Looks aside, fuse holders and just a pain in the a$$
> > to remove and replace.
> > And. More to the point. They all mount from the
> > outside with soldered on
> > connection in the back.
>
> =====
> ----------------------------
> Michel Therrien CH601-HD
> http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
| From: | James Freeman <flyeyes(at)bellsouth.net> |
On Thursday, June 27, 2002, at 12:08 AM, richard(at)riley.net wrote:
> I've already got the 2 place intercom that I need. I just need switches
> to
> xmit on com 1 or 2, and listen to com 1, com 2 and nav. Anybody got a
> diagram I can use?
>
Richard--I assume you're using a UPS sl-30. I really think -that- one
radio will do everything you want without external switches. The ability
to monitor the standby frequency effectively gives you the functionality
(in single pilot ops anyway) of two comm radios.
You can obviously monitor the nav side, but with the radio's ability to
decode and display the identifier, you don't need to do that except to
listen to flight service on the VOR (Realistically, with widespread AWOS
and Flightwatch, when was the last time you actually used the nav audio
except to identify a station...on a checkride).
There isn't AFAIK anything to listen to on GPS so you don't need to
monitor that.
Take the money you had budgeted for a second comm and audio panel and
spend it on a "tuck and roll" upholstery job in TJ.
Use a handheld and external antenna for backup and I think you're good to
go
James Freeman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
Thanks Richard,
I'm building a Zenair CH601-HD. You can visit my web
site at: http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
Actually, for the fuse panel installation, I copied on
two other CH601 builders. And the panel is kept in
the up position only with a wire clamp riveted to an
angle (where your back bulkhead would be I supposed).
Initially, I did not think that this clamp would be
strong enough and I thought about using a Dzus or
Camlock, but after trying it, I'm very confident it's
gonna be good.
Michel
> I'm curious to know what plane you're building.
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
>
>
>On Thursday, June 27, 2002, at 12:08 AM, richard(at)riley.net wrote:
>
> > I've already got the 2 place intercom that I need. I just need switches
> > to
> > xmit on com 1 or 2, and listen to com 1, com 2 and nav. Anybody got a
> > diagram I can use?
> >
>
>Richard--I assume you're using a UPS sl-30. I really think -that- one
>radio will do everything you want without external switches. The ability
>to monitor the standby frequency effectively gives you the functionality
>(in single pilot ops anyway) of two comm radios.
>
>You can obviously monitor the nav side, but with the radio's ability to
>decode and display the identifier, you don't need to do that except to
>listen to flight service on the VOR (Realistically, with widespread AWOS
>and Flightwatch, when was the last time you actually used the nav audio
>except to identify a station...on a checkride).
>
>There isn't AFAIK anything to listen to on GPS so you don't need to
>monitor that.
>
>Take the money you had budgeted for a second comm and audio panel and
>spend it on a "tuck and roll" upholstery job in TJ.
You're right, with the SL30 decoding NAV I don't need to listen to it, but
I already have both the SL30 and a GX60, so I'm at least going to have to
be able to pick Xmit 1 or 2. I'm figuring on the GX as primary com since
it interfaces so nicely with it's database.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
Hi Folks,
Tried to find info on this in the archives but no luck. Hope I'm not retreading
on common ground. Apologies if so. Anyway, does anyone have experience
with the Superior Panel Technology lighting products? The products look
nice enough....how about the company? Any good/bad experiences. Thanks very
much for any information.
Bill Yamokoski
Getting danged close tp slipping the surly bonds in the Glastar
June 09, 2002 - June 27, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ay