AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-az
June 27, 2002 - July 24, 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
In a message dated 6/27/02 04:35:04 AM, mtherr(at)yahoo.com writes:
<< http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/daypict.jpg >>
you can do that in a homebuilt. What about certified. I'm talking about a
Grumman Tiger. The fuses are on the front panel where you can get to them.
I personally wouldn't care for a panel that swings down. I'd rather be able
to reach a stable panel in flight that isn't flopping around.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
But why do we need to be able to reach the panel in
flight?
--- Aucountry(at)aol.com wrote:
> down. I'd rather be able
> to reach a stable panel in flight that isn't
> flopping around.
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
In a message dated 6/27/02 09:02:25 AM, mtherr(at)yahoo.com writes:
<< But why do we need to be able to reach the panel in flight? >>
just in case a fuse blows.
Coming out of Cammillo one night, it was a little bumpy, I turned on the nav
lights and panel lights. I usually like to keep it fairly dark inside. When
I went to read a map, I cranked up the panel lights and everythng went
totally dark. Fues blown. Hmmm. I turned down the panel lights, replaced
the fuse, and tried it again. Lights worked good right up to the max
lighting. I replaced the fuse again, and went with partial lighting for the
rest of the flight. Nothing worng with the circuit. The rheostat was
grounding on the primer line and blowing the fuse at full on. Easy to see
when laying on my back under the panel.
On another occasion, the landing light fuse would blow after about 40
seconds. This occurred a number of times. I still don't know why. It was a
10 amp fuse. Knowing this, I was able to land, at night, using the landing
light until the fuse blew. After landing, i replaced the fuse, While taxing
to parking, I would use the landing light intermittently to see where I was
going. Again, each time I over used the light, the fuse would blow, easy to
replace. A circuit breaker would have been nice.
Point is, if a fuse blows, I want to be able to replace it in flight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
I asked because I can acknowledge it is easy to see
when a breaker pops off, but not a fuse.
As for the panel lighting problem... I'll have panel
lights and flood lights (which also illuminate the
panel) on two different circuits... of course, I'll
also have a battery powered light.
For the landing light problem... I'll have two
circuits for landing and taxi lights. But according
with regulations, landing/taxi are not required unless
this is a commercial flight (or is it unless you carry
passengers?).
You get the idea... I feel that the plane functions do
not depend on any single circuit and if a circuit
goes, I prefer to look at it once on the ground. The
one exception to that is the alternator circuit which
will have an OV protection module with a panel circuit
breaker (on the field circuit).
I am debating in my mind whether I'd like to get a
breaker on the normal feed to the e-Bus just to become
confident that the loading do not exceed my design
load in practice (so I am confident I would not blow
the fuse from the battery bus when I run only on the
e-bus).
Michel
--- Aucountry(at)aol.com wrote:
> Aucountry(at)aol.com
> Coming out of Cammillo one night, it was a little
> bumpy, I turned on the nav
> lights and panel lights. I usually like to keep it
> fairly dark inside. When ....
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names |
withheld
If somethings is shorting (rheostat) while in flight, I am not too
excited about being able to replace the fuse that powers it. You don't
find something like a rheostat shorting to part of the fuel system to be
a problem with a circuit? The airplane PROBABLY won't blow up....
I think the idea is to design a fault tolerant system for all missions
on which the plane may embark. In the 'dark and (maybe) stormy'
scenario that you describe, the system could have been more fault
tolerant be allowing you to switch on your alternate source of light, be
it through a different circuit wired into the plane (to power a flood?),
or one of the flashlights that you carry. Carrying two is a good idea.
Working on my electrical system while flying at night is not one of the
better ways for me to maintain situational awareness, in my opinion.
As Bob has pointed out in the past, if you are flying something that
is already certified, you are likely stuck with a system NOT designed to
be fault tolerant. In that case, I can understand the need to be able
to accomplish repairs while underway, though it doesn't make me happy.
Turning up the flood to read a chart shouldn't make 'everything' go dark
in a well designed system.
You can pull over to the side while in your car. That's less convenient
in an airplane.
Matt Prather.
----- Original Message -----
From: Aucountry(at)aol.com
Date: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:25 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names
withheld
>
>
> In a message dated 6/27/02 09:02:25 AM, mtherr(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
> << But why do we need to be able to reach the panel in flight? >>
>
> just in case a fuse blows.
>
> Coming out of Cammillo one night, it was a little bumpy, I turned
> on the nav
> lights and panel lights. I usually like to keep it fairly dark
> inside. When
> I went to read a map, I cranked up the panel lights and everythng
> went
> totally dark. Fues blown. Hmmm. I turned down the panel lights,
> replaced
> the fuse, and tried it again. Lights worked good right up to the
> max
> lighting. I replaced the fuse again, and went with partial
> lighting for the
> rest of the flight. Nothing worng with the circuit. The rheostat
> was
> grounding on the primer line and blowing the fuse at full on. Easy
> to see
> when laying on my back under the panel.
>
> On another occasion, the landing light fuse would blow after about
> 40
> seconds. This occurred a number of times. I still don't know why.
> It was a
> 10 amp fuse. Knowing this, I was able to land, at night, using the
> landing
> light until the fuse blew. After landing, i replaced the fuse,
> While taxing
> to parking, I would use the landing light intermittently to see
> where I was
> going. Again, each time I over used the light, the fuse would
> blow, easy to
> replace. A circuit breaker would have been nice.
>
> Point is, if a fuse blows, I want to be able to replace it in flight.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Blue Mountain |
The PCFlightsystems iPAQ based PCEFIS and EPANEL appear to be direct competitors
to
the BlueMountain system- The EPANEL would be a single source failure item but
the
PCEFIS could be (according to the mfgr.) used on duplicate iPAQ's, one for EFIS
and
one for GPS mapping, switchable between them for some redundancy, at least for
the
display. Their website shows such a configuration. See:
http://pcflightsystems.com/
Has anyone here investigated these or have any actual flight experience with them?
I am considering using these (two iPAQ's) with a separate engine monitor, airspeed
indicator and altimeter plus separate fuel gauges in my VFR panel with handheld
backup (com & GPS) of course...
From the PossumWorks
Mark - panel planning
Michael Stephan wrote:
> Single point failure is something to consider, especially if it happens
> during a flight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon & Kathryn Hults" <jkhults(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - nameswithheld |
Interesting discussion. I like the dual alt/dual batt electrical system
for ultimate fault tolerance. I agree with many of you that the pilot
should be FLYING while airborne and should save the MAINTENANCE until on
the ground. A properly designed system will allow you to continue the
flight without the NEED to change any fuses or reset any cb's.
I swerve slightly however, and come down on the side of the cb in the
cockpit simply for pilot awareness. The popped cb tells me exactly what
the problem is so I can continue the flight COMFORTABLY with that
knowledge.
Incidentally, I would NEVER put cb's on my instrument panel! What a
colossal waste of precious space. Mine will be mounted along the kick
panels next to my legs and angled so that the white band of a popped cb
as well as its label will be easily seen with a quick glance.
I'm new to the list, but have enjoyed all of your comments & suggestions
thoroughly! Thanks.
Jon Hults
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mprather(at)spro.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange -
nameswithheld
If somethings is shorting (rheostat) while in flight, I am not too
excited about being able to replace the fuse that powers it. You don't
find something like a rheostat shorting to part of the fuel system to be
a problem with a circuit? The airplane PROBABLY won't blow up....
I think the idea is to design a fault tolerant system for all missions
on which the plane may embark. In the 'dark and (maybe) stormy'
scenario that you describe, the system could have been more fault
tolerant be allowing you to switch on your alternate source of light, be
it through a different circuit wired into the plane (to power a flood?),
or one of the flashlights that you carry. Carrying two is a good idea.
Working on my electrical system while flying at night is not one of the
better ways for me to maintain situational awareness, in my opinion.
As Bob has pointed out in the past, if you are flying something that is
already certified, you are likely stuck with a system NOT designed to be
fault tolerant. In that case, I can understand the need to be able to
accomplish repairs while underway, though it doesn't make me happy.
Turning up the flood to read a chart shouldn't make 'everything' go dark
in a well designed system.
You can pull over to the side while in your car. That's less convenient
in an airplane.
Matt Prather.
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
>
>
>In a message dated 6/27/02 04:35:04 AM, mtherr(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
><< http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/daypict.jpg >>
>
>you can do that in a homebuilt. What about certified. I'm talking about a
>Grumman Tiger. The fuses are on the front panel where you can get to them.
>I personally wouldn't care for a panel that swings down. I'd rather be able
>to reach a stable panel in flight that isn't flopping around.
Got a reader in Florida working on a Grumman refurbish
that will feature the fuseblocks, e-bus, dual alt, etc.
His goal is to put it in under a Form 337 field
approval. Will let everyone know how it works out,
if it works out. There's no scientific reason for
it not to but . . . well . . . . 'nuf said.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
>
>
>In a message dated 6/27/02 09:02:25 AM, mtherr(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
><< But why do we need to be able to reach the panel in flight? >>
>
>just in case a fuse blows.
>On another occasion, the landing light fuse would blow after about 40
>seconds. This occurred a number of times. I still don't know why. It was a
>10 amp fuse. Knowing this, I was able to land, at night, using the landing
>light until the fuse blew. After landing, i replaced the fuse, While taxing
>to parking, I would use the landing light intermittently to see where I was
>going. Again, each time I over used the light, the fuse would blow, easy to
>replace. A circuit breaker would have been nice.
>
>Point is, if a fuse blows, I want to be able to replace it in flight.
Wouldn't it be better to fix the reason it is blowing? And what
are you going to do when the light bulb burns out? They always
do it just when you first turn them on . . . just before you
need it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange - names withheld |
>
>I asked because I can acknowledge it is easy to see
>when a breaker pops off, but not a fuse.
When passive failures (fuse doesn't pop) outnumber
active failures (fuse pops) then what is the relative
value of having a fuse or breaker be able to annunciate
the fact that the system is dead due to overload?
The system is just as useless either way.
>As for the panel lighting problem... I'll have panel
>lights and flood lights (which also illuminate the
>panel) on two different circuits... of course, I'll
>also have a battery powered light.
Plan B backs up Plan A . . . good design not
found on most certified ships.
>For the landing light problem... I'll have two
>circuits for landing and taxi lights. But according
>with regulations, landing/taxi are not required unless
>this is a commercial flight (or is it unless you carry
>passengers?).
But what are YOUR requirements? If you intend
to have lighting useful for landing at night
irrespective of the condition of any single, forward
shining lamp, then two systems are dictated.
Many of my builders have used hi/lo beam
automotive headlight lamps so that there
is a spare filament in each fixture . . .
even if the second one doesn't point exactly
the right direction, it's a whole lot better
than no light.
>You get the idea... I feel that the plane functions do
>not depend on any single circuit and if a circuit
>goes, I prefer to look at it once on the ground. The
>one exception to that is the alternator circuit which
>will have an OV protection module with a panel circuit
>breaker (on the field circuit).
>
>I am debating in my mind whether I'd like to get a
>breaker on the normal feed to the e-Bus just to become
>confident that the loading do not exceed my design
>load in practice (so I am confident I would not blow
>the fuse from the battery bus when I run only on the
>e-bus).
Don't understand . . . are you concerned that
the diode may fail? This is tested on every pre-flight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
>
>
>Interesting discussion. I like the dual alt/dual batt electrical system
>for ultimate fault tolerance. I agree with many of you that the pilot
>should be FLYING while airborne and should save the MAINTENANCE until on
>the ground. A properly designed system will allow you to continue the
>flight without the NEED to change any fuses or reset any cb's.
>
>I swerve slightly however, and come down on the side of the cb in the
>cockpit simply for pilot awareness. The popped cb tells me exactly what
>the problem is so I can continue the flight COMFORTABLY with that
>knowledge.
Spent the whole day today in a "Red Team" meeting where
a good customer with a lot of airplanes has his shorts
in a bunch. Seems a low-rate but persistent nuisance
trip of a warning system will sometimes result
in a scrubbed mission or putting an airplane down
away from home field. In the later case, passengers
and crew of the afflicted airplane have to by commercial
tickets. Technicians and other pilots have to fly
commercial to recover the airplane.
I've participated in hundreds of problem-solving
efforts over the years involving systems that
draw everything from milliamps to hundreds of
amps from ship's power. I've witnessed gawd-awful
burned up motors, contactors and power supplies.
There have been plenty of microprocessors
that wandered off to la-la land. I cannot remember
one case where the problem to be solved first made
its presence known by popping a breaker.
The ones that popped breakers were fixed by the
mechanics (they found the shorted wire or hard-fault
failed component). The problems that don't pop
breakers (aside from wires that came loose) are
often the hardest to fix and they greatly outnumber
problems that do pop breakers. This is the way
most radios fail and it always means a trip to
the shop.
I am mystified by any notion of comfort to be
derived from knowing or not knowing that a
fuse/breaker is open or not open. Many of our
new designs on the big ships use remotely controlled
breakers driven by flight systems management
computers. When a system mis-behaves, we
light a lamp anyhow to tell a pilot the thing isn't
working. He doesn't know and couldn't care less
as to why. We don't have to annunciate "AFT
COMPRESSOR RCB OPEN" . . . his pax are already
telling him, "it's hot back here!"
Popped breakers were not mentioned in today's
meeting either but I have taken notice of
an delta-p switch built and certified with
30 year old, very process sensitive
technology. Few people have the skill and
patience to make this product work well today.
It's time to do a simpler, no-moving
parts upgrade . . . just like swapping out
all those breakers and a bizillion threaded
fasteners and lock-washers for the little
plug-in block of plastic with only one part
. . . and it doesn't move.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
>.Many of our
> new designs on the big ships use remotely controlled
> breakers driven by flight systems management
> computers. When a system mis-behaves, we
> light a lamp anyhow to tell a pilot the thing isn't
> working. He doesn't know and couldn't care less
> as to why
I'm told the C-130-J has a virtual breaker system controlled by a touch
screen LCD. One of the virtual breakers powers the screen itself. When
you "pull" that breaker the plane is down till you reload the operating system.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Faris" <kf64358(at)alltel.net> |
Hello Rob,
You might want to look at rst-engr.com for their audio panel. It is
cheap, a kit, and allows all those neat things at 20 percent of the
price of a UPS or King panel.
It is priced well with the marker beacon built in. A recent
conversation with Jim Weir he stated that the latest circuit board is
coming out in time for Oshkosh and builds in half the time.
Just my 2 cents.
Kev
<< Do I really need the cost/failure point/complexity of an audio panel?
Suggestions from the guru, Bob), and the collective wisdom of the list
will be much appreciated. >>
I've asked myself this same question a number of times. In todays GA
airplanes, there really isn't much need for DME, ADF, 3 Navs, 3 Coms,
AUX, or
a host of the bells and whistles included in the lasted audio panels
from
Garmin, UPS, etc.
What I need most is a 4-place intercom (doesn't need to be stero) that
has
marker beacon, and 2 coms. Maybe 1 Nav. I don't really care if the
copilot
can talk on one freq, while I talk on the other one either.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon & Kathryn Hults" <jkhults(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange
-->
>
>
>Interesting discussion. I like the dual alt/dual batt electrical system
>for ultimate fault tolerance. I agree with many of you that the pilot
>should be FLYING while airborne and should save the MAINTENANCE until
>on the ground. A properly designed system will allow you to continue
>the flight without the NEED to change any fuses or reset any cb's.
>
>I swerve slightly however, and come down on the side of the cb in the
>cockpit simply for pilot awareness. The popped cb tells me exactly
>what the problem is so I can continue the flight COMFORTABLY with that
>knowledge.
I am mystified by any notion of comfort to be
derived from knowing or not knowing that a
fuse/breaker is open or not open. Many of our
new designs on the big ships use remotely controlled
breakers driven by flight systems management
computers. When a system mis-behaves, we
light a lamp anyhow to tell a pilot the thing isn't
working. He doesn't know and couldn't care less
as to why. We don't have to annunciate "AFT
COMPRESSOR RCB OPEN" . . . his pax are already
telling him, "it's hot back here!"
Popped breakers were not mentioned in today's
meeting either but I have taken notice of
an delta-p switch built and certified with
30 year old, very process sensitive
technology. Few people have the skill and
patience to make this product work well today.
It's time to do a simpler, no-moving
parts upgrade . . . just like swapping out
all those breakers and a bizillion threaded
fasteners and lock-washers for the little
plug-in block of plastic with only one part
. . . and it doesn't move.
Bob . . .
OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse, I'd like
to be able to physically SEE which one it was. Also, if you could see
the fuse box or cb panel from the cockpit and they were all still
intact, wouldn't you at least know more than you did before about the
failure? ...and wouldn't that be of some value? (...like whether the
offending circuit still has power).
Jon
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
> OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
> failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse, I'd like
> to be able to physically SEE which one it was.
Just out of interest, I bought a interesting set of fuses at an automotive
store. Each fuse has an LED which glows when the fuse is blown.
John Slade
Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
John,
Still early days for me, I took Bob's seminar last weekend in Watsonville
and it was excellent so I've started lurking here just to figure out what
the issues are I should be thinking about when I come to plan my panel.
I'm already sold on the idea of fuses vs CBs however it could be helpful to
know that a fuse has blown and the LEDs could help. Do you recall the
manufacturer or store where you got them?
Thanks,
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange
>
> > OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
> > failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse, I'd like
> > to be able to physically SEE which one it was.
> Just out of interest, I bought a interesting set of fuses at an automotive
> store. Each fuse has an LED which glows when the fuse is blown.
> John Slade
> Cozy IV
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
Auto Zone carries them here.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange
>
> John,
>
> Still early days for me, I took Bob's seminar last weekend in Watsonville
> and it was excellent so I've started lurking here just to figure out what
> the issues are I should be thinking about when I come to plan my panel.
>
> I'm already sold on the idea of fuses vs CBs however it could be helpful
to
> know that a fuse has blown and the LEDs could help. Do you recall the
> manufacturer or store where you got them?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tony
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
> To:
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange
>
>
>
> >
> > > OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
> > > failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse, I'd
like
> > > to be able to physically SEE which one it was.
> > Just out of interest, I bought a interesting set of fuses at an
automotive
> > store. Each fuse has an LED which glows when the fuse is blown.
> > John Slade
> > Cozy IV
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers, 'OC',
Your message reads, in part:
"Some background: Recently a fellow builder in a posting to a web based
group that I belong to expressed his complete disgust with Phillips drive
screws. I responded that there were superior alternatives such as hex
socket, Torx, and Torx Plus drive screws that were being used in modern
aerospace vehicles, but that it was very difficult to find and expensive to
buy such screws in small quantities for our use."
Actually it was me. I had just stripped another @#$%
& Philips
head screw, attempting to loosen it, and sent out a very calming and
soothing flamer to all and sundry complaining that Henry Ford wanted control
of the fabulous Robertson screw ("square-drive", to the teenager who writes
the catalog descriptions) of 1908. Since it originated in Milton Ontario -
about ten miles away - is superior in every way to the @$%
Philips and is
easily the best-automated screw to be driven to say nothing of cheeeap to
produce, the venting of my spleen had a most rehabilitating effect.
However, the subsequent stream of conciousness which followed,
began to diverge to Torx, and several other attempts to simulate the
Robertson. This tended to complicate a very simple point. When Henry
couldn't power the factory away from an equally self-impressed Robertson,
Henry dropped the idea and adopted Harry Philips' inferior design and the
pressured War department made it the darling of the forces by specifying for
the Army Air Force as the build up to war in the late 1930's began.
Thus the Philips (@#$%
) became an "army-navy" AN part number
and the Robertson forgotten. My only rant was that it cost thousands of
man-hours of wasted energy in substituting the @#$%
& for the Prince of
Screws. As a result, Philiups died rich, Robertson blundered into obscurity
and the Milton plant closed when an American company bought the rights and
produces millions Of R'son screws today mainly for the Canadian market. Mark
my words, the R'son is coming your way, and its qualities are superior in
every way. It is much cheaper, better formed, can be hoisted onto work by
its driver, produces more torque than any but the most sophisticated device,
and can be unscrewed without fail. I defy anyone to install a slotted or
P'head downward with one hand.
For those who doubt my words, please contact the History channel
for a one-hour program regarding the story of this simple, elegant
invention.
Best of intentions,
ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
>
>
> >.Many of our
> > new designs on the big ships use remotely controlled
> > breakers driven by flight systems management
> > computers. When a system mis-behaves, we
> > light a lamp anyhow to tell a pilot the thing isn't
> > working. He doesn't know and couldn't care less
> > as to why
>
>I'm told the C-130-J has a virtual breaker system controlled by a touch
>screen LCD. One of the virtual breakers powers the screen itself. When
>you "pull" that breaker the plane is down till you reload the operating
>system.
Software by Microsoft no doubt . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
>
>
>OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
>failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse, I'd like
>to be able to physically SEE which one it was. Also, if you could see
>the fuse box or cb panel from the cockpit and they were all still
>intact, wouldn't you at least know more than you did before about the
>failure? ...and wouldn't that be of some value? (...like whether the
>offending circuit still has power).
>
>Jon
How does that information help you as a pilot to do
your best at comfortable completion of that particular
flight? The first indication that anyone gets for
a malfunction is that some expected event didn't
happen when a switch was moved, perhaps the flag
drops on an indicator, or the thing just quietly
dies (like comm radios . . . I've had them quit
and it took some time to realize that I wasn't
hearing anyone for a long time when the frequency
HAD been pretty busy earlier).
Once you've deduced that some equipment item is
not working, of what value is it to know anything
about why? If that's a really handy piece of equipment,
you've undoubtedly got a backup. In any case, life
trundles on without it until you're in a position
to really do something about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's ammeter FYI |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>hi listers,
>>I found out the hard way, and by good luck, that what seems to be the
>>logical way to wire up this meter dosn't work.
>>
>>I am using the main bus/essential bus scheme promoted by Bob Nuckolls.
>>The two busses are connected by a big diode. These are electronic gauges
>>and get a power and ground in addition to the sense pin(s). It seems
>>logical to power the gauges, including the ammeter, from the essential
>>bus but this dosn't work for the ammeter, the meter will show a huge
>>discharge. Moving the ammeter power lead to the main bus will fix it.
>>
>>I think that the problem is that the 1 volt drop across the diode causes
>>the sense pins to be at a higher voltage than the power source which
>>boggles the circuit.
>>
>
> Hmmm . . . is there any place on the net I can see the installation
> schematic for this product? Or can you fax me a copy?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
It's nothing fancy. +12 on the "I" pin, ground on the "G" pin and the
"+" and "-" pins go to the shunt. The shunt is only a few millivolts
below the battery voltage and the essential bus is one diode drop below
the battery voltage. So if the "I" pin is on the essential bus it is
below the shunt voltage. On the main bus it is above the shunt voltage.
Jim Bean
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Torx, schmorx |
I grow entirely weary of the ongoing diatribes about peoples
inability to drive a simple screw. For seventy years, the military has build
and maintained aircraft with Phillips screws. Yes, it does require the
dexterity of an 18 yr old conscripted PFC mechanic. Perhaps that is too much
to ask.
I submit that there are far more important issues to address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
> Auto Zone carries them here.
Right. That's where I got them.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping things simple. |
>
>
>On Thursday, June 27, 2002, at 12:08 AM, richard(at)riley.net wrote:
>
> > I've already got the 2 place intercom that I need. I just need switches
> > to
> > xmit on com 1 or 2, and listen to com 1, com 2 and nav. Anybody got a
> > diagram I can use?
> >
>
>Richard--I assume you're using a UPS sl-30. I really think -that- one
>radio will do everything you want without external switches. The ability
>to monitor the standby frequency effectively gives you the functionality
>(in single pilot ops anyway) of two comm radios.
>
>You can obviously monitor the nav side, but with the radio's ability to
>decode and display the identifier, you don't need to do that except to
>listen to flight service on the VOR (Realistically, with widespread AWOS
>and Flightwatch, when was the last time you actually used the nav audio
>except to identify a station...on a checkride).
>
>There isn't AFAIK anything to listen to on GPS so you don't need to
>monitor that.
>
>Take the money you had budgeted for a second comm and audio panel and
>spend it on a "tuck and roll" upholstery job in TJ.
You're right, with the SL30 decoding NAV I don't need to listen to it, but
I already have both the SL30 and a GX60, so I'm at least going to have to
be able to pick Xmit 1 or 2. I'm figuring on the GX as primary com since
it interfaces so nicely with it's database.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Keeping it simple, revisited |
Richard,
> You have a UPS-SL30 and GX60, and need two switched inputs, as well as
music
> capability, and four place intercom. The PS Engineering PMA4000 is
small,
> can fit in a 2.5 inch hole or use a rectangular faceplate, and has an
> excellent squelch system. It will automute the music fed into it
during
> radio transmission. Eastern Avionics has them for $675, and you may
be able
> to find it cheaper. This would be a small, neat installation that
does
> everything that you want.
> Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walter S. Fellows" <fellowsw(at)mondexkorea.com> |
I generally agree with the thread on leaving the troubleshooting to the
ground. However I can remember several times in my 210 when I was going
a little too fast and extended the flaps which caused the breaker to
pop. You know what the problem is, slow down, reset the breaker and
extend the flaps the remainder of the way. It is probably a similar
situation for gear extension in a Lancair IV or Stallion. So, I lean on
the side of CBs in view (maybe with a little head twisting) in the kick
panels (z-14, dual bus, dual battery, dual alternator, dual cb panels,
one panel on each side of the airplane, replace one battery each
annual). My $.02.
Walter Fellows
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
Walter's comments:
1. I generally agree with the thread on leaving the troubleshooting to the
ground....
2. I can remember several times in my 210 when I was going a little too
fast and extended the flaps which caused the breaker to pop. You know what
the problem is, slow down, reset the breaker and extend the flaps the
remainder of the way....
No problem with Walter's first comment above. The logic of Bob's design
philosophy is that maintenance items are handled at the destination.
I have a problem with Walter's second statement. He did not have equipment
problems. He had a problem with piloting technique. Since it was so easy
to reset the breaker he did not have to face the recurring problem of
excessive approach speeds. It was so quick that he didn't even have to
think about it - so he didn't. With modern designs and modern equipment a
failed circuit requires contemplation (on the ground).
There was a good article in Sport Aviation recently. It suggested that we
fly occasionally with a friend whereby you alternate PIC duties on each leg
of the trip. The thesis was that you will be a better pilot due to the
basic competitive nature of people. The author used the analogy of golfing
with a friend - where winning shouldn't matter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
Several issues---
I have had several fuses in cars and electronic devices that fatigue
fractured. I can't believe this is a rare occurrence. I can't say CBs
are better, but fuses have their own problems. Perhaps anti-vibration
mounting for fuses should be considered.
CBs are made in many varieties. The best ones to use are
electro-hydraulic (NOT thermal). They double as switches, of course.
This can make the wiring much simpler which makes up for their increased
weight. The on-off cycle ratings are now about the same as regular
switches. Some cute things can be built easily into the CB such as
alarms and blinking lamps on trip.
Eric M. Jones (Glastar #5540)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
I think vibration should be a consideration for mounting anything
in an airplane. Four cylinder aircraft engines are especially bad
as far as vibration. And survivability of systems should some part
of the engine/propellor come apart should also at least be considered.
They guys that race o-200 safety cable the engine to the airframe
because their propellors are prone to failure with the blad twist
and RPM that they run.
Pointing out that fuses are susceptible to vibration damage is a
interesting, as they seem like they might be pretty immune. Have
you had failures with ATC (blade) style fuses, or just the glass
tube type?
Matt Prather.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:03 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBs vs Breakers
>
> Several issues---
>
> I have had several fuses in cars and electronic devices that fatigue
> fractured. I can't believe this is a rare occurrence. I can't say CBs
> are better, but fuses have their own problems. Perhaps anti-vibration
> mounting for fuses should be considered.
>
> CBs are made in many varieties. The best ones to use are
> electro-hydraulic (NOT thermal). They double as switches, of course.
> This can make the wiring much simpler which makes up for their
> increasedweight. The on-off cycle ratings are now about the same as
> regularswitches. Some cute things can be built easily into the CB
> such as
> alarms and blinking lamps on trip.
>
> Eric M. Jones (Glastar #5540)
>
>
> _-
>
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
!! NEW !!
> _-
>
List Related Information
> _-
>
=======================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
Eric,
You tantalize us - tell us more about the "electro-hydraulic" CBs and
source(s), please.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBs vs Breakers
>
> Several issues---
>
> I have had several fuses in cars and electronic devices that fatigue
> fractured. I can't believe this is a rare occurrence. I can't say CBs
> are better, but fuses have their own problems. Perhaps anti-vibration
> mounting for fuses should be considered.
>
> CBs are made in many varieties. The best ones to use are
> electro-hydraulic (NOT thermal). They double as switches, of course.
> This can make the wiring much simpler which makes up for their increased
> weight. The on-off cycle ratings are now about the same as regular
> switches. Some cute things can be built easily into the CB such as
> alarms and blinking lamps on trip.
>
> Eric M. Jones (Glastar #5540)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walter S. Fellows" <fellowsw(at)mondexkorea.com> |
You are quite right about the problem being bad piloting technique. Is
there a pilot around who has never suffered a bout of bad piloting
technique? So is the penalty a no flaps or partial flaps landing? No big
deal because we a trained to do that but what if your intended airport
has short runways.?. Do you really want to divert to another airport as
a result to be as slave to some principle of design? I have heard Bob
say many times that you have to practically consider each situation
instead of slavishly follow a rule or principal.
As for the flying pilot non flying pilot approach, I have been riding in
the cockpit of a 777 on approach when the alarm bell went off. Of course
there was a fp and nfp. It came from trying to extend flaps while the
spoilers were deployed. Bad pilot technique. Sure. Big problem, no
because of Boeing's design. Several airline pilots confessed to me that
they have done the same thing.
An electric flap system or electric gear system should be protected by a
breaker within reach of the pilot. Or there should be some other method
for dealing with this problem.
Walter Fellows
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Kells
> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:36 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CBs vs Breakers
>
>
>
> Walter's comments:
> 1. I generally agree with the thread on leaving the troubleshooting
to
> the
> ground....
> 2. I can remember several times in my 210 when I was going a little
too
> fast and extended the flaps which caused the breaker to pop. You know
> what
> the problem is, slow down, reset the breaker and extend the flaps the
> remainder of the way....
>
> No problem with Walter's first comment above. The logic of Bob's
design
> philosophy is that maintenance items are handled at the destination.
>
> I have a problem with Walter's second statement. He did not have
> equipment
> problems. He had a problem with piloting technique. Since it was so
easy
> to reset the breaker he did not have to face the recurring problem of
> excessive approach speeds. It was so quick that he didn't even have
to
> think about it - so he didn't. With modern designs and modern
equipment a
> failed circuit requires contemplation (on the ground).
>
> There was a good article in Sport Aviation recently. It suggested
that we
> fly occasionally with a friend whereby you alternate PIC duties on
each
> leg
> of the trip. The thesis was that you will be a better pilot due to
the
> basic competitive nature of people. The author used the analogy of
golfing
> with a friend - where winning shouldn't matter.
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-
> list
>
=
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
Shouldn't there be a way to torque limit a flap motor without making
it blow its circuit protection (like a window motor)? The main circuit
protection (breaker or fuse) certainly can protect the device that it
powers, but it should maybe more protect the wire that connects to it.
I think I have read Bob reference a thermal limiter that is self
"automatic?"
So maybe the scenario should be that the system is designed with a
fuse large enough to support the current load that the device it powers
can safely demand for ultimate circuit protection, and a current limiter
in the motor system. Then if you are a little ham-fisted with the flap
application the system does a soft shutdown for a moment until it
cools off (hopefully allowing you to contemplate your actions for a
moment), and then you get a chance to try again. If you are really
persisten then the flaps just don't get lowered because the device stays
in its current limiter mode. If you have a shorting failure in the
motor, controller, or wire, then its blows a fuse, you stop making
sparks with it by trying to reset it repeatedly, and you don't get to
make more fireworks with it again until you make a landing somewhere and
can get to the fuse panel. I suppose you could wire an anunciator to
the limiter to indicate when its in limiter mode so that you can know
when you will have more success.
Probably won't find something like this on a C210 any time soon... Does
anyone know whether the C210 flap breaker was designed to protect the
structure?? There are lots of other things you could do that would
overstress the airframe...
If you need more reliability - ie its impractical to design a redundant
wing flap mechanism, then maybe the thing should be mechanical to start
with. I could imagine that might be a consideration if you operate in
Alaska where long, smooth, no flapper landing strips might be further
away than your mission endurance.
The idea of trading off PIC duties is a good one. I have a buddy who
flies with me and isn't current, and I think I am going to get on him
about this so we can get sharper.
Matt Prather.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter S. Fellows" <fellowsw(at)mondexkorea.com>
Date: Friday, June 28, 2002 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: CBs vs Breakers
>
> You are quite right about the problem being bad piloting technique. Is
> there a pilot around who has never suffered a bout of bad piloting
> technique? So is the penalty a no flaps or partial flaps landing?
> No big
> deal because we a trained to do that but what if your intended airport
> has short runways.?. Do you really want to divert to another
> airport as
> a result to be as slave to some principle of design? I have heard Bob
> say many times that you have to practically consider each situation
> instead of slavishly follow a rule or principal.
>
> As for the flying pilot non flying pilot approach, I have been
> riding in
> the cockpit of a 777 on approach when the alarm bell went off. Of
> coursethere was a fp and nfp. It came from trying to extend flaps
> while the
> spoilers were deployed. Bad pilot technique. Sure. Big problem, no
> because of Boeing's design. Several airline pilots confessed to me
> thatthey have done the same thing.
>
> An electric flap system or electric gear system should be protected
> by a
> breaker within reach of the pilot. Or there should be some other
> methodfor dealing with this problem.
>
> Walter Fellows
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> > aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Kells
> > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:36 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CBs vs Breakers
> >
> >
> >
> > Walter's comments:
> > 1. I generally agree with the thread on leaving the
> troubleshootingto
> > the
> > ground....
> > 2. I can remember several times in my 210 when I was going a
> littletoo
> > fast and extended the flaps which caused the breaker to pop. You
> know> what
> > the problem is, slow down, reset the breaker and extend the flaps
> the> remainder of the way....
> >
> > No problem with Walter's first comment above. The logic of Bob's
> design
> > philosophy is that maintenance items are handled at the destination.
> >
> > I have a problem with Walter's second statement. He did not have
> > equipment
> > problems. He had a problem with piloting technique. Since it
> was so
> easy
> > to reset the breaker he did not have to face the recurring
> problem of
> > excessive approach speeds. It was so quick that he didn't even have
> to
> > think about it - so he didn't. With modern designs and modern
> equipment a
> > failed circuit requires contemplation (on the ground).
> >
> > There was a good article in Sport Aviation recently. It suggested
> that we
> > fly occasionally with a friend whereby you alternate PIC duties on
> each
> > leg
> > of the trip. The thesis was that you will be a better pilot due to
> the
> > basic competitive nature of people. The author used the analogy of
> golfing
> > with a friend - where winning shouldn't matter.
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
>
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Keeping it simple, revisited |
>
>
>Richard,
> > You have a UPS-SL30 and GX60, and need two switched inputs, as well as
>music
> > capability, and four place intercom. The PS Engineering PMA4000 is
>small,
> > can fit in a 2.5 inch hole or use a rectangular faceplate, and has an
> > excellent squelch system. It will automute the music fed into it
>during
> > radio transmission. Eastern Avionics has them for $675, and you may
>be able
> > to find it cheaper. This would be a small, neat installation that
>does
> > everything that you want.
> > Jim Foerster
I only have 2 seats, and I already have a DRE 244e. It has a terrific
music mute and squelch. So I'm back to...
Someone have a circuit diagram of how to use a couple of toggle switches to
control 2 radios in and out?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
I think one factor that has not been mentioned is that each and every one
of you have experience with the automotive fuses that are proposed (not the
glass ones, but the ATO blade type) in the cars we drive. When was the
last time you had a fuse blow on your lights or radios, unless you were
fooling around with the wiring, or you had a poor trailer hookup?
Everybody likes to give their experience stories - well, mine is that I've
driven several internal combustion cars on bad roads (vibration prone) for
a long, long time (more than I can remember) with zero blade fuse failures.
Do you even bother to carry spare fuses in your car? Has it ever really
been a problem? Some might, but the folks I know seem to share the same
experience as me.
If you do the MATH you won't have nuisance trips. I say this because for a
while I was enamored with polyfuses (you can search the archives for the
email exchanges) because they don't even need to be replaced, but really,
if they are properly chosen, neither do fuses unless your equipment
fails. They only protect the wires against much more expensive equipment
going haywire. What if the expensive equipment does actually fail - which
perhaps has a MTBF of 2,000 hours? Then, you get to put in a new $1.00
fuse with your $500-$2000 and up failed piece of equipment.
I resisted for a while, but the fuse blocks and a conservative approach on
sizing them means I wont be worried about the failure of a fuse, but the
failure of some of the other components, the most unreliable of which is
always the pilot by several orders of magnitude.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
I did not realize reading Bob's text how compact a
blade fuse installation can be. This evening, I wired
my fuse panel and I am pretty impressed with the
number of wires coming out of it! See:
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/daypict.jpg
22 circuits, main bus feed, ess bus feed and
alternator field (not yet connected). All on a panel
10"X6" that will take 0"X0" of instrument panel space.
Michel
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Subject: CBs vs Breakers |
Cheers,
My $0.02 refers to Ernest Kells's message on the subject today.
I suggest a second reading as it is the wisest bit of advice seen in a
while.
Airline experience is often a 'behaviour revision' endeavour
because of one airline company's attitude toward a procedure. The battle
becomes a contest between thoise who build and those who operate aircraft.
Ernest hit the nail on the head IMHO. A 'rescue' procedure
creates the tendency to be tested regularly rather than avoiding the need
for rescue in the first place.
His analogy to golf (tennis, etc) is pure logic. Two heads are
better than one is the basis for having a buddy look over your work in
building, too.
FWIW,
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net> |
| Subject: | GNS 430 Current Draw |
Hi All,
Does anyone know the approximate current draw for the Garmin GNS 430 or
530...trying to do a load analysis and haven't found any info on their
website or in the online users manual!
Also - is there anyone out there planning on going with EFIS/One and trying
to put it on an SD-8 powered essential bus? Just curious what others have
come up with....I know Greg @ BM says it'll draw 4A without the AP, probably
8A w/ AP...doesn't leave much room for many other items (w/out using the
battery) if you're down to only the SD-8.
Thanks!
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Laishes" <jefflaish(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Starter Solenoid Orientation |
Should the starter solenoid be oriented upside-down in the event of a
solenoid spring failure, so that it will fail in the open position?I
understand that I can de-energize the starter solenoid by turning off the
master solenoid but I want the extra safety. Also,should the master solenoid
switch be mounted in the upright position or can it be positioned on its
side?
Jeff Laishes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 Current Draw |
Brian,
I've measured the current draw of my GNS 430 of the combined Nav and Com
lines at 2.13 amps on a 12 volt supply.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A panel, N331RD reserved
Brian & Debi Shannon wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know the approximate current draw for the Garmin GNS 430 or
> 530...trying to do a load analysis and haven't found any info on their
> website or in the online users manual!
>
> Also - is there anyone out there planning on going with EFIS/One and trying
> to put it on an SD-8 powered essential bus? Just curious what others have
> come up with....I know Greg @ BM says it'll draw 4A without the AP, probably
> 8A w/ AP...doesn't leave much room for many other items (w/out using the
> battery) if you're down to only the SD-8.
>
> Thanks!
> ---
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 Current Draw |
The GNS 430 installation manual with all sorts of good stuff is available on
the web site. Go to the customer support section and go down the page to
installation manuals.
Steve Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian & Debi Shannon" <wings(at)theshannons.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 Current Draw
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know the approximate current draw for the Garmin GNS 430 or
> 530...trying to do a load analysis and haven't found any info on their
> website or in the online users manual!
>
> Also - is there anyone out there planning on going with EFIS/One and
trying
> to put it on an SD-8 powered essential bus? Just curious what others have
> come up with....I know Greg @ BM says it'll draw 4A without the AP,
probably
> 8A w/ AP...doesn't leave much room for many other items (w/out using the
> battery) if you're down to only the SD-8.
>
>
> Thanks!
> ---
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
Walter, Fergus and others:
Thanks to Fergus for the positive feedback, and to Walter for assuming that
my comments were only meant to be constructive - not a slam.
The article referred to below is published in the May Sport Aviation (Gerry
Twombly, Page 128).
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 20% Complete
> There was a good article in Sport Aviation recently. It suggested that we
> fly occasionally with a friend whereby you alternate PIC duties on each
leg
> of the trip. The thesis was that you will be a better pilot due to the
> basic competitive nature of people. The author used the analogy of golfing
> with a friend - where winning shouldn't matter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
My bad experiences with fuses have been the old ceramics from European
autos and 5 X 20 glass fuses (also European). I believe the ACT blade
types are superior....but hey...there's still no switch. I'll probably
have a few fuses in places where I don't also need a separate switch. I
also have used self-resetting solid state fuses; these should be
carefully applied.
Electrohydraulic-Magnetic circuit breakers are best for operating in
difficult environments and packed panels. They don't heat load and
nuisance trip. They are small and have rockers or toggles and lots of
features. These are going into my Glastar.
http://www.pocosales.com/ or http://www.cbibreakers.com/ look up CBI
Hy-Mag B-frame circuit breakers.
http://www.etacbe.com/n_america/e-t-a/etacbeframeset.html check model
series 8330
Regards.
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 06/28/2002 2:53:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com LRE2(at)aol.com writes:
6/29/2002
Hello LRE2, I apologize for pursuing the off topic subject of specialty
screws in this forum after it was initially raised by Fergus Kyle (he wants
credit).
I have this tendency to want to solve problems when people raise them. My
wife often accuses me of this -- it turns out that she frequently wants just
sympathy rather than a solution to her latest complaint / problem. But I am
an incurable solution provider.
Please let me make 5 points:
1) Your comment about the dexterity of young junior enlisted men in
manipulating Phillips drive screws was particularly poignant to me. That is
how I started out -- as a 17 year old enlisted airplane mechanic in the US
Navy over 52 years ago in 1950. And many's the Phillips screw that I have
turned in those intervening years. I miss those days, but not the Phillips
drive screws.
2) And yes, my physical skills served me very well in those golden days of
youth, but some how as time has passed the physical challenge of a problem
has faded a bit in appeal and the mental challenge has come to the fore. Some
times I find it much better to use my brain rather than my (limited) brawn to
solve problems these days.
3) Aerospace has indeed found it desirable / necessary to move beyond the
Phillips drive screw. Many, many alternatives have been developed through the
years by different people in an attempt to develop the "perfect screw drive".
(And the search continues -- Torx Plus being one of the more recent
examples). I won't even begin to list all of the others here, but the hex
socket and the Torx seem to be two of the most common ones used on modern
aerospace vehicles. If the big boys are using something better than the
Phillips drive, why shouldn't we amateur experimental builders be also
willing to move forward? Don't we even claim to be on the leading edge at
times?
4) Simple screw? -- surely you jest. As an Aerounautical Engineer (a
subspecialty in structures), an A&P mechanic (and a pilot of some 40 years
plus) I assure you that there is nothing simple about aerospace fasteners.
They literally hold our vehicles together -- is there a more fundamental
function in the pilot's list of desires than that his vehicle not fall apart
while in use? There are even federal laws about the pedigree and
accountability of aerospace fasteners. 'Nuff said.
5) As for more important issues to address in one of these forums, over 50
fellow builders have contacted John Fleisher at Micro Fasteners expressing a
desire to obtain some of the specialty screws that we have been discussing. I
submit that to those 50 plus builders, and more to come, that this subject
reached a level of importance that directly affected the bulding of their
aircraft. Isn't that why we are all communicating with each other?
Regards from a fellow builder.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 06/28/2002 2:53:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com "Fergus Kyle" writes:
6/29/2002
Hello Ferg, Yep, I was keenly aware that it was you that raised this issue in
this forum, but I wasn't sure that you would want to remind eveyone and claim
"credit" so I obfuscated that fact. Sorry.
I am willing to give you complete credit, and to thank you because I feel
that some benefit has flowed.
Ferg, my renewed search for a better screw drive in a stainless steel 100
degree flat head counter sink configuration was not in any way intended to
denigrate the Robertson drive, or products from Canada (I greatly loved
flying the Katana DA20-C1).
But I looked at both what modern aerospace vehicles were using and what was
reasonably available in drive bit inserts and the conclusion was either hex
socket or Torx. Since the hex sockets were pretty small in the number 8
flathead 100 degree countersink screws that I had previously bought (at great
expense) I opted for the Torx drive. (Actually I feel that Torx Plus is
superior, but again availability is minimal).
So there we have it. As over 50 fellow builders have responded to John
Fleisher at Micro Fasteners indicating a desire for such screws he is in the
process of procuring some number 8-32 5/8 inch long Torx drive 100 degree
counter sink flat head SS screws and will maybe procure some other sizes.
If you feel that the Robertson drive screw's time has arrived why don't you
pursue getting some made up in the configurations and material that fellow
builders could use? A word of caution -- it has taken me over four years of
searching and struggle to reach this point and I'm still not sure that the
Torx drive is going to be a satisfactory replacement for the Phillips drive.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
PS: I would be careful about using the term "Prince of Screws" in referring
to the Roberston drive because there is a screw drive already in existence
called the Prince. It was very similar to the Phillips and was easily
confused. It now has fallen out of favor and is not readily found.
PPS: There is a screw square drive remarkably similar to the Robertson called
SCRULOX. Maybe it is just another name for a Robertson drive. I don't know
anything about its pedigree. Insert bits can be obtained from SNAP-ON.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <bruce.gray(at)snet.net> |
| Subject: | GNS 430 Current Draw |
Be advised that that number should increase when transmitting.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Dudley
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 Current Draw
Brian,
I've measured the current draw of my GNS 430 of the combined Nav and Com
lines at 2.13 amps on a 12 volt supply.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A panel, N331RD reserved
Brian & Debi Shannon wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know the approximate current draw for the Garmin GNS
430 or
> 530...trying to do a load analysis and haven't found any info on their
> website or in the online users manual!
>
> Also - is there anyone out there planning on going with EFIS/One and
trying
> to put it on an SD-8 powered essential bus? Just curious what others
have
> come up with....I know Greg @ BM says it'll draw 4A without the AP,
probably
> 8A w/ AP...doesn't leave much room for many other items (w/out using
the
> battery) if you're down to only the SD-8.
>
> Thanks!
> ---
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <bruce.gray(at)snet.net> |
| Subject: | GNS 430 Current Draw |
Buy the SD-20.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
& Debi Shannon
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS 430 Current Draw
Hi All,
Does anyone know the approximate current draw for the Garmin GNS 430
or
530...trying to do a load analysis and haven't found any info on their
website or in the online users manual!
Also - is there anyone out there planning on going with EFIS/One and
trying
to put it on an SD-8 powered essential bus? Just curious what others
have
come up with....I know Greg @ BM says it'll draw 4A without the AP,
probably
8A w/ AP...doesn't leave much room for many other items (w/out using the
battery) if you're down to only the SD-8.
Thanks!
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Torx, schmorx 1 |
>PS: I would be careful about using the term "Prince of Screws" in referring
>to the Roberston drive because there is a screw drive already in existence
>called the Prince. It was very similar to the Phillips and was easily
>confused. It now has fallen out of favor and is not readily found.
Was that the screws that are similar to phillips, except that the 4 legs
are offset slightly?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Torx, schmorx 1 |
OC & Ferg,
I haven't seen a description of the diffence between Torx & Torx Plus.
Also, having never seen a Torx of any type, nor a Robertson, could you give
us a brief description of what these fasteners and drive bits look like?
Probably a web page link with pictures would be worth a thousand words.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: <BAKEROCB(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Torx, schmorx 1
>
> In a message dated 06/28/2002 2:53:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com "Fergus Kyle"
writes:
>
> fellow builder in a posting to a web based group that I belong to
expressed
> his complete disgust with Phillips drive screws. I responded that there
were
> superior alternatives such as hex socket, Torx, and Torx Plus drive screws
> that were being used in modern aerospace vehicles, but that it was very
> difficult to find and expensive to
> buy such screws in small quantities for our use." Actually it was me.>
>
> 6/29/2002
>
> Hello Ferg, Yep, I was keenly aware that it was you that raised this issue
in
> this forum, but I wasn't sure that you would want to remind eveyone and
claim
> "credit" so I obfuscated that fact. Sorry.
>
> I am willing to give you complete credit, and to thank you because I feel
> that some benefit has flowed.
>
>
> Ferg, my renewed search for a better screw drive in a stainless steel 100
> degree flat head counter sink configuration was not in any way intended to
> denigrate the Robertson drive, or products from Canada (I greatly loved
> flying the Katana DA20-C1).
>
> But I looked at both what modern aerospace vehicles were using and what
was
> reasonably available in drive bit inserts and the conclusion was either
hex
> socket or Torx. Since the hex sockets were pretty small in the number 8
> flathead 100 degree countersink screws that I had previously bought (at
great
> expense) I opted for the Torx drive. (Actually I feel that Torx Plus is
> superior, but again availability is minimal).
>
> So there we have it. As over 50 fellow builders have responded to John
> Fleisher at Micro Fasteners indicating a desire for such screws he is in
the
> process of procuring some number 8-32 5/8 inch long Torx drive 100 degree
> counter sink flat head SS screws and will maybe procure some other sizes.
>
> If you feel that the Robertson drive screw's time has arrived why don't
you
> pursue getting some made up in the configurations and material that fellow
> builders could use? A word of caution -- it has taken me over four years
of
> searching and struggle to reach this point and I'm still not sure that the
> Torx drive is going to be a satisfactory replacement for the Phillips
drive.
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
> PS: I would be careful about using the term "Prince of Screws" in
referring
> to the Roberston drive because there is a screw drive already in existence
> called the Prince. It was very similar to the Phillips and was easily
> confused. It now has fallen out of favor and is not readily found.
>
> PPS: There is a screw square drive remarkably similar to the Robertson
called
> SCRULOX. Maybe it is just another name for a Robertson drive. I don't know
> anything about its pedigree. Insert bits can be obtained from SNAP-ON.
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terrywatson3(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torx, schmorx 1 |
Here is a web page that illustrates seven types of screw heads:
www.msbuilder.com/tool/msscrew.htm
Terry
>
> Also, having never seen a Torx of any type, nor a Robertson, could you
give
> us a brief description of what these fasteners and drive bits look like?
> Probably a web page link with pictures would be worth a thousand words.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
Snip...
So there we have it. As over 50 fellow builders have responded to John
Fleisher at Micro Fasteners indicating a desire for such screws he is in the
process of procuring some number 8-32 5/8 inch long Torx drive 100 degree
counter sink flat head SS screws and will maybe procure some other sizes.
Is this www.microfasteners.com ? How do I get on his list. These things
might be ideal to replace the **#@ing cowls screws I keep stripping.
John Slade
Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: GNS 430 Current Draw |
>
>Be advised that that number should increase when transmitting.
Transient loads for transmitters are generally ignored
in the load analysis for sizing alternators and batteries.
Transmitter energy requirements are generally under 1%
of the total system requirements and are therefore
not a factor.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Torx, schmorx 1 |
Terry Watson wrote:
>
>
> Here is a web page that illustrates seven types of screw heads:
> www.msbuilder.com/tool/msscrew.htm
>
If you include the 'http://' in the web address, it will
allow most users to simply click on the address & go to the
page listed.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 Current Draw |
>
>Brian,
>I've measured the current draw of my GNS 430 of the combined Nav and Com
>lines at 2.13 amps on a 12 volt supply.
Good data point! Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid Orientation - Myths and magic |
>
>
>
>Should the starter solenoid be oriented upside-down in the event of a
>solenoid spring failure, so that it will fail in the open position? I
>understand that I can de-energize the starter solenoid by turning off the
>master solenoid but I want the extra safety. Also,should the master solenoid
>switch be mounted in the upright position or can it be positioned on its
>side?
>
> Jeff Laishes
The myths surrounding supposed failure modes of contactors
including the hazards of g-loading due to airborne maneuvers
are rampant in the wild. I've not been able to track down a
single case of hard data that backed up any of the stories
about spring failure or aerobatic g-loading being any
cause for concern. I was at OSH one year when a story went
around about somebody's starter contactor closing during
an airshow performance causing lots of damage to starter
and ring gear. The popular story was that the pilot's
daring-do produced the necessary acceleration to close
the contacts and weld them. In fact, the contacts probably
welded on initial startup and the pilot either didn't
notice or had no obvious indications of the event via
panel instrumentation.
Your starter contactor should be of this variety:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s702-1l.jpg
These generally mount on the firewall with the terminals
facing forward. G-loading that would produce inadvertent
closure of the contacts would occur only if you hit the
ground, tail first, at mucho feet per second . . . if
you do hit the ground in this attitude, starter contactor
closure is the least of your concerns.
Battery contactors are normally closed for the duration
of the flight. In this condition, the spring is fully
compressed and magnetic forces keeping the contactor closed
are at their highest - impossible to open with aero
dynamic loads. Unless you plan to fly some high-g maneuvers
during battery only ops with an e-bus alternate feed
bypassing an OPEN battery contactor, concerns for
mounting the battery contactor in some magical position
are also invalid.
Cursory looks at actuator mass and spring rates in
the various contactors we sell show that g-loads
capable of effecting contactor performance just
don't happen in light aircraft.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>My bad experiences with fuses have been the old ceramics from European
>autos and 5 X 20 glass fuses (also European). I believe the ACT blade
>types are superior....but hey...there's still no switch. I'll probably
>have a few fuses in places where I don't also need a separate switch. I
>also have used self-resetting solid state fuses; these should be
>carefully applied.
The only fuses I've seen that succumbed to vibration were
the glass and ceramic cartridge devices in the smaller ratings
and of the fast-blow variety. The fusible portion of the device
was so fine in the 3A or smaller sizes that they would part the
solder joint under the end cap with severe vibration. This
is why you didn't see a cartridge fuse of less than 5A used
in very many places on airplanes.
The plastic fuses in all sizes are not so afflicted.
Electrohydraulic-Magnetic circuit breakers are best for operating in
>difficult environments and packed panels. They don't heat load and
>nuisance trip. They are small and have rockers or toggles and lots of
>features. These are going into my Glastar.
>
>http://www.pocosales.com/ or http://www.cbibreakers.com/ look up CBI
>Hy-Mag B-frame circuit breakers.
>
>http://www.etacbe.com/n_america/e-t-a/etacbeframeset.html check model
>series 8330
These are indeed fine circuit breakers . . . we've looked at
breakers with similar performance characteristics in certified
aircraft for years . . . but only in special cases where the
extra fast response of magnetically tripped breakers was
found useful or necessary . . . They are used less than 1%
of the time in the GA fleet. To state they are "best"
for your application implies an increased risk
of problems by using any lesser product. I'll suggest
that 50 years of experience in the GA fleet has demonstrated
that this is not the case.
I don't recommend fuses as "better" than breakers for the
purpose of protecting the wires but I would say that they
are equal to breakers in this regard at a fraction of the
cost.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: CBs vs Breakers |
>
>I did not realize reading Bob's text how compact a
>blade fuse installation can be. This evening, I wired
>my fuse panel and I am pretty impressed with the
>number of wires coming out of it! See:
>
>http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/daypict.jpg
>
>22 circuits, main bus feed, ess bus feed and
>alternator field (not yet connected). All on a panel
>10"X6" that will take 0"X0" of instrument panel space.
Nice job on dressing those bundles!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Two alternator, one or two battery systems |
Bob,
OK, I will use the Z-14 style of electrical system. Both the Jabiru
PM flywheel alternator and the B&C SD20 are 20 amp units. The SD20 will
have the B&C LR3C-14 regulator and the Jabiru will have the Jabiru
provided regulator. I will add overvoltage protection with the OVM-14
and the s704-1 relay for the PM alternator. The main battery is an
Odessey 17 amp hour unit with internal resistance of 7 milliohms (I
confirmed this cranking the engine on the stand.) The small battery is
a Panasonic 5 amp-hour unit with fast-on tabs. There is no diagram in
the connection for this permutation of components, but I can manage with
some thought. The hardest part will be learning to use the software to
redo the drawings!
Questions:
1. Will one VLM-14 system work, or do I need the VSM-14KIT as well?
The B&C voltage regulator will indicate if the SD20 has failed, so the
VLM-14 could monitor the PM alternator. Furthermore, since each
alternator has its own 20 amp shunt, the DPDT switch shown on the last
page of the instruction manual could allow manual selection for the
loadmeter. However, to switch the voltmeter independently of current, I
could use a single pole, double throw switch. Pin 8, the normal input
for the voltmeter, would be switched between the main bus and the aux
bus. I do wish to monitor field voltage on the SD20 at times, so the
pushbutton to test field voltage on the SD20 is still needed. Any
problems so far?
This arrangement means that the PM alternator drives the main bus with
the 17 amp-hr battery. This bus will be protected from voltage spikes
from the starter by the VLM-14. It will be used mainly for lights and
strobes. The avionics will be on the aux buss which is driven by the
SD20 and stabilized by the 5 amp-hr battery. With the crossfeed relay
activated only for failure of either alternator, the avionics will never
see any noise or spikes from the starter.
2. I have a source of relay sockets used in automobiles which fit
an s704 relay clone. There will be at least three of these used: small
battery contactor, PM overvoltage relay, and crossfeed relay. If a
relay sockets were used for these, the opportunity to misconnect a relay
in the future is eliminated. Do you see a problem with this?
3. You suggested either a s704 crossfeed relay, or even a 20 amp
circuit breaker. I happen to have one of these breakers, so what is the
better choice? The chance of either bus shorting to ground is low
given the fuses everywhere. The relay allows me to use an annunciator
light driven by the switch. A plain SPST switch would be simplest, and
given the low current involved, might be the most justified.
4. I plan to put the current shunt in the ground lead of the PM
alternator. Then, no 24 gauge fuse links are needed, as the wires to
the ammeter are a ground potential. See Z-13
Jim Foerster J400/3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Bob,
In evaluating the real current loads in various operating conditions, I
have measured current draw for each of the radios and instruments that I
have. There are a few items that I do not have data for and cannot
readily measure until everything is installed and operating.
Referring to your Z-11 schematic, what continuous (or average)current
do you expect in the line from the Main Power Bus to the pin 6 of the
Alternator Controller: and for the Lo V Warn to pin 5 of the Controller?
Thanks in advance.
Richard Dudley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | GNS430 serial input from Rocky Mtn Encoder |
Anyone used the serial output from a Rocky Mountain Encoder to the serial
input on a Garmin 430 rather than the encoder grey code? If so, I'm curious
what protocol you used.
Russ Werner
HR II
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Actual Loads |
>
>Bob,
>
>In evaluating the real current loads in various operating conditions, I
>have measured current draw for each of the radios and instruments that I
>have. There are a few items that I do not have data for and cannot
>readily measure until everything is installed and operating.
>
>Referring to your Z-11 schematic, what continuous (or average)current
>do you expect in the line from the Main Power Bus to the pin 6 of the
>Alternator Controller: and for the Lo V Warn to pin 5 of the Controller?
Pin 6 is field supply. Since the B&C alternators are originally
rated as 40 or 60A devices with the field powered up internally,
they will become 43 and 63A devices with the field supplied
externally. If you're using any other brand of EXTERNALLY
excited alternator, then figure on a max of 3A going into
pin 6 on the regulator which will happen under the very rare
cases of maxed out alternator performance due to loading, low
RPM or both. Under normal conditions, a B&C with the supplied
pulley and typical loads for VFR/IFR flight, field current
will be 1 to 1.5 amps.
Pin 5 is a sense lead that draws about 50 milliamps as I
recall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CBs vs Breakers |
>
> An electric flap system or electric gear system should be protected
> by a breaker within reach of the pilot. Or there should be some other
> method for dealing with this problem.
Let's size the "problem" . . . suppose you find that
flaps stop deploying when airload induced current
values exceed the value of the circuit protection
long enough to trip the device. Flaps are already
out with considerable surface to the wind . . . else
the protection wouldn't have operated. What is the
risk to the planned landing? I'll suggest none.
The difference in landing performance between say
2/3 deployed and fully deployed flaps would be
difficult to deduce by observation.
The real risk is for some of the older Cessnas
with their 40-degree flap extensions. What happens
if you've got the boards out and have to do a go-around.
There were conditions on some models that committed
you to put the wheels on the ground after dropping
below some minimum height above the ground. I think
there was an AD put out against the 150's to change
maximum flap travel to 30 degrees after these aircraft
experienced a rash of unhappy go-around attempts.
>
>Shouldn't there be a way to torque limit a flap motor without making
>it blow its circuit protection (like a window motor)? The main circuit
>protection (breaker or fuse) certainly can protect the device that it
>powers, but it should maybe more protect the wire that connects to it.
>I think I have read Bob reference a thermal limiter that is self
>"automatic?"
In the best of all worlds, yes. Modern brushless motors often
build stall current limitations into their controllers but
even this value may be several times the normal running current
of the system such that prolonged operation (tenths of seconds
to seconds) at over-normal levels may open the circuit protection.
This is particularly probable with permanent magnet or shunt
wound motors that exhibit sharp rise in current draw
as load increases as compared with the softer behavior of
a series wound motor.
>So maybe the scenario should be that the system is designed with a
>fuse large enough to support the current load that the device it powers
>can safely demand for ultimate circuit protection, and a current limiter
>in the motor system. Then if you are a little ham-fisted with the flap
>application the system does a soft shutdown for a moment until it
>cools off (hopefully allowing you to contemplate your actions for a
>moment), and then you get a chance to try again.
The overload situation has to be pretty short lived. White
arc speeds are for fully deployed flaps. By the time they're
half way out, drag is going up rapidly and the airplane slows
down quickly. I've expedited descent to the end of the runway
and started extending flaps at over-the-arc speeds
while holding level flight. As soon as the needle touches
the top of the white arc, push the nose down to stay at
the top while the flaps continue to deploy.
Unless one has the power up -and- nose pushed over it seems
that it would be difficult to stay at speeds above the white
arc after the flaps were deployed by half or more (except
the American AA-1 Yankee . . . flaps were a waste of parts
and labor to install on that airplane).
> If you are really
>persisten then the flaps just don't get lowered because the device stays
>in its current limiter mode. If you have a shorting failure in the
>motor, controller, or wire, then its blows a fuse, you stop making
>sparks with it by trying to reset it repeatedly, and you don't get to
>make more fireworks with it again until you make a landing somewhere and
>can get to the fuse panel. I suppose you could wire an anunciator to
>the limiter to indicate when its in limiter mode so that you can know
>when you will have more success.
I built a set of active current limiters to go in series with
each motor of a landing gear retraction system for a Lancair IVP.
These are designed to limit torque to values capable of operating
the gear but prevent transient spikes of startup AND the
possibility of damaging a gearbox if the system jams or drives
past limit switches. These are not difficult to build but they
do drive up parts count. I think I would make SURE that the flap
system supply was robust enough to stay powered up for all but
hard fault conditions. If just-over-the-white-arc airspeeds are
likely to trip the protection, it's simply too light. On homebuilts,
we modify to correct such faults of design. Certified ships are
another matter.
>Probably won't find something like this on a C210 any time soon... Does
>anyone know whether the C210 flap breaker was designed to protect the
>structure?? There are lots of other things you could do that would
>overstress the airframe...
We ran some tests way back when that deliberately drove the
flaps on a Cessna into mechanical stops. I don't recall now
which model it was but I recall that the event didn't
permanently deform anything. The actuators at that time had
end-of-travel, overrun limiters on the ball screw and the flaps
were supposedly rigged so that the motor couldn't jam things
even if the limit switch failed to halt the motor . . . the
ball screw traveller simply reached the end of the stroke and
uncoupled.
The real overload threat was extension of flaps at high
airspeeds. I think there was a 30kt headroom value for
the top of the white arc for design strength . . .
I can call out to Cessna and confirm that value. These
instances are of short duration unless one is pushing the
nose down to maintain over-speed while the flaps come out.
>If you need more reliability - ie its impractical to design a redundant
>wing flap mechanism, then maybe the thing should be mechanical to start
>with. I could imagine that might be a consideration if you operate in
>Alaska where long, smooth, no flapper landing strips might be further
>away than your mission endurance.
Electric flaps of the PM motor/ball-screw variety have been installed
on tens of thousands of airplanes for over 40 years. I've not
researched the service difficulty reports on this system so
I cannot attest to qualities "pure as the driven snow." However, personal
observation over the years shows that this flap system deployment
technology is at least very low on the list of concerns.
Having said all this assumes that everything was working as-designed.
Most breakers take something on the order of 5-30 seconds to open
with a 200% overload. There is reason to check the breaker in
a flap system that tripped due to "aerodynamic overload" . . .
All in all, one should KNOW how the airplane is going to behave
with flaps deployed at any setting. If you can't extract yourself
from a rejected landing with full flaps under all conditions,
it might pay to never extend flaps to full until your comfortable
arrival is assured. Popped fuses are not the ONLY way flaps might become
immobile. . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Actual Loads |
Bob,
Thanks for your reply.
I have an additional related question:
(I plan on using a B&C 60 A alternator and the LR-3 controller.)
In Z-11 from the main bus you show a AWG 22 fusible link, 18 AWG wire to
and from the switch, have a 5 A Circuit breaker in the line between the
Bat/Alt switch and pin 6 of the controller and an AWG 20 wire from pin 4
of the controller to the field of the alternator.
Would you explain the rationale for that combination. Do you expect the
fusible link to fail in a shorter time than it takes the breaker to
respond if there is a failure at the controller or the alternator?
Regards,
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >In evaluating the real current loads in various operating conditions, I
> >have measured current draw for each of the radios and instruments that I
> >have. There are a few items that I do not have data for and cannot
> >readily measure until everything is installed and operating.
> >
> >Referring to your Z-11 schematic, what continuous (or average)current
> >do you expect in the line from the Main Power Bus to the pin 6 of the
> >Alternator Controller: and for the Lo V Warn to pin 5 of the Controller?
>
> Pin 6 is field supply. Since the B&C alternators are originally
> rated as 40 or 60A devices with the field powered up internally,
> they will become 43 and 63A devices with the field supplied
> externally. If you're using any other brand of EXTERNALLY
> excited alternator, then figure on a max of 3A going into
> pin 6 on the regulator which will happen under the very rare
> cases of maxed out alternator performance due to loading, low
> RPM or both. Under normal conditions, a B&C with the supplied
> pulley and typical loads for VFR/IFR flight, field current
> will be 1 to 1.5 amps.
>
> Pin 5 is a sense lead that draws about 50 milliamps as I
> recall.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | GNS430 serial input from Rocky Mtn Encoder |
> Anyone used the serial output from a Rocky Mountain Encoder to the
> serial input on a Garmin 430 rather than the encoder grey code? If so,
I'm
> curious what protocol you used.
I have set the uEncoder output to:
SHAdZ
and the Garmin GNS-430 GPS input on Channel 1 to:
Shadin-fadc - Serial air data and fuel flow information from Shadin
9628XX-X Fuel/Air Data Computer
and it works fine on the ground (it transmits IALT; PALT; DALT; TALT;
IAS; TAS; OAT; TAT; InHg
and Hdg [magnetic heading from the remote compass] every second or so.)
Ulrich
(all electric IFR CH801)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
"OC & Ferg, I haven't seen a description of the diffence between Torx & Torx
Plus.
Also, having never seen a Torx of any type, nor a Robertson, could you give
us a brief description of what these fasteners and drive bits look like?
Probably a web page link with pictures would be worth a thousand words.
David Carter"
6/30/2002
Hello David, The URL <> will give you
pictures of the Robertson (square) and the Torx (six lobe) drives. The
difference between the Torx and the Torx Plus is more subtle. You can go to
this web site to check it out <<http://www.camcar.textron.com/torxplus/>>.
Ask for literature to get the precise picture.
Some comments:
1) Torx Plus is relatively new and both fasteners and drivers may be hard to
come by.
2) There is a constant ongoing struggle. A screw drive configuration that
works good on a high speed automated assembly line may not be too good when
it gets out in the field and vice versa.
3) Don't confuse either Torx or Torx Plus with Torx-Set. They are quite
different.
4) A printed tool catalog like Jensen <> has good
pictures of many different screw drives.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS430 serial input from Rocky Mtn Encoder |
Ulrich,
Fantastic. Thanks for the great information. What can the 430 do with all
that information? Is it able to give you wind and drift information? If
so, how far down the menus to get that displayed?
I don't have the compass module for my Rocky Mountain, but I may get it if
the 430 can make good use of it!
Aloha,
Russ
Harmon Rocket II
----- Original Message -----
From: <ulf3(at)juno.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS430 serial input from Rocky Mtn Encoder
>
>
> > Anyone used the serial output from a Rocky Mountain Encoder to the
> > serial input on a Garmin 430 rather than the encoder grey code? If so,
> I'm
> > curious what protocol you used.
>
>
> I have set the uEncoder output to:
>
> SHAdZ
>
> and the Garmin GNS-430 GPS input on Channel 1 to:
>
> Shadin-fadc - Serial air data and fuel flow information from Shadin
> 9628XX-X Fuel/Air Data Computer
>
> and it works fine on the ground (it transmits IALT; PALT; DALT; TALT;
> IAS; TAS; OAT; TAT; InHg
> and Hdg [magnetic heading from the remote compass] every second or so.)
>
>
> Ulrich
> (all electric IFR CH801)
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 Current Draw |
>
> >
> >Brian,
> >I've measured the current draw of my GNS 430 of the combined Nav and Com
> >lines at 2.13 amps on a 12 volt supply.
I'm not familiar with these units, but don't their displays have
backlighting? I'd guess that
at full brightness the current draw would be considerably higher.
Finn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 Current Draw |
Finn,
There is a photocell that adjusts the brightness of the display on the
GNS 430. The display becomes brightest when the ambient light is high
and dimmest when the ambient light is low. The measurement that I
reported (2.13 A) was in a lighted room. Shining a flashlight on the
photocell made no difference suggesting that the room illumination was
enough to take the display to its brightest. If I cover the photocell to
simulate dark conditions, the current draw declines to 1.7 A.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
Finn Lassen wrote:
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >Brian,
> > >I've measured the current draw of my GNS 430 of the combined Nav and Com
> > >lines at 2.13 amps on a 12 volt supply.
>
> I'm not familiar with these units, but don't their displays have
> backlighting? I'd guess that
> at full brightness the current draw would be considerably higher.
>
> Finn
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange
>
> > OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
> > failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse, I'd like
> > to be able to physically SEE which one it was.
> Just out of interest, I bought a interesting set of fuses at an automotive
> store. Each fuse has an LED which glows when the fuse is blown.
> John Slade
> Cozy IV
>
We use a similar device at work and there are a couple of things to bear in
mind on these LED blown fuse indicators. First they only work if there is a
load downstream of the fuse that is capable of lighting the LED. If you
have a blown fuse on the landing light circuit it will only light up the
blown fuse indicator if the switch is on and the filiment is good. They can
also make troubleshooting a little confusing from time to time since the LED
in the fuse will carry the voltage through it. I have spent too much time
over the years chasing a problem that turned out to be a blown fuse because
I put a voltmeter on the circuit, read the proper voltage and carried on
looking for something else when all along it was a blown fuse. Well, the
LED wasn't on and I had voltage downstream, it must not be the fuse, right?
but it was.
I'm not trying to discourage the use of these things I just want everybody
to know the rest of the story.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved)
http://www.myrv7.com
Fuselage
Airplanes never win battles with the ground. The best the airplane can hope
for is a draw.
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Faris" <kf64358(at)alltel.net> |
I had a 1982 Dodge Challenger ( a Mitsubishi in disguise) which used
blade type fuses and had a slider switch and light attached to the fuse
block. When the key was on you could slowly move the slider through
each fuse position and it would light.
The same thing could be done on these aircraft systems with a rotary
switch (yes I know most of them are junk) and an LED. By using a
current limiting resistor for the LED at the load side of each fuse the
"monitoring circuit" is protected from shorting the load and blowing the
fuse. Not much current flows through a 1K resistor.
FWIW
Kev..RV7 wings arrive tomorrow!
OK Bob, fuse or cb.....my only point was that IF you get a
> > > failure/malfunction that DOES pop the breaker or blow the fuse,
I'd
like
> > > to be able to physically SEE which one it was.
> > Just out of interest, I bought a interesting set of fuses at an
automotive
> > store. Each fuse has an LED which glows when the fuse is blown.
> > John Slade
> > Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>I had a 1982 Dodge Challenger ( a Mitsubishi in disguise) which used
>blade type fuses and had a slider switch and light attached to the fuse
>block. When the key was on you could slowly move the slider through
>each fuse position and it would light.
>
>The same thing could be done on these aircraft systems with a rotary
>switch (yes I know most of them are junk) and an LED. By using a
>current limiting resistor for the LED at the load side of each fuse the
>"monitoring circuit" is protected from shorting the load and blowing the
>fuse. Not much current flows through a 1K resistor.
If we do our homework, the likelihood of ever having to
replace a fuse is very low for the lifetime of the airplane.
If one has a voltmeter, it's really easy to probe the downstream
side of the fuse to see if it's blown . . . since we're trouble
shooting a system with known problems, our wirebook notes
on which fuse powers that system should take us right to the
fuse in question. If one doesn't have a voltmeter, we're not
ready to troubleshoot the system anyhow and self annunciating
fuses and fuse holders won't make the task much easier.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS430 serial input from Rocky Mtn Encoder |
Ulrich,
Do you have your Rocky Mountain Encoder (grey code heading to transponder)
output connected to the 430 as well or just using the serial data line
out/in?
Russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bberger" <bberger(at)socal.rr.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 07/01/02 |
Hi folks, I've been sitting on the sidelines reading the traffic, and
picking up some good information along the way.
Here's a comment that a friend, who is a Cessna dealer mentioned to me when
he visited my Pulsar (almost done) My use of blade fuses. He mentioned
that Cessna is using these type fuses in area and has had a problem with
vibration causing the fuses to come loose. A service bulletin was sent out
advising persons to apply a small dab of RTV on the head of the fuse, enough
to hold it to the fuse block yet not enough to inhibit its removal.
Using Bob's fuse blocks, I've found that it takes a hefty push to insert and
a good tug to remove so I don't think this would be an issue but this
comment made to me bares mentioning.
Bernie Berger
N914BB(res)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | terminal strip for fastons |
Bob - do you sell a terminal strip for fastons? I cant find them on your web
site. I think since I will have to make a joint at the wing root this is my
choice method. Assuming a joint (which I know you dislike) anything against
this?
Thanks, Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "PFlyer" <pfergus2(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Help ( A little off topic ) |
All -
I found a bargain at a garage sale .. It's a turn and bank gyro produced
by Honeywell. It's in good shape ( from the outside) now I'm wondering
if I should use it. The placard reads : MFR Part 00-205C4 / Serial # 156
/ Series 5 and at the bottom in very small lettering it says Cessna.
Does anyone know of this model? Is it 24v or 12v? I would like to know
the pin out for this. Any leads or suggestion are greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Peter Ferguson
N601PK
Zodiac 601
"Metal Firecracker"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harley, Ageless Wings" <Harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Help ( A little off topic ) |
Mornin', Peter...
>>a turn and bank gyro produced by Honeywell. It's in good shape ( from the
outside) now I'm wondering
if I should use it. The placard reads : MFR Part 00-205C4 / Serial # 156 /
Series 5 and at the bottom in very small lettering it says Cessna. Does
anyone know of this model? Is it 24v or 12v? I would like to know
the pin out for this. Any leads or suggestion are greatly appreciated.<<
I went to the Honeywell Avionics website, but they require pre approved
access to their support section. Wasn't difficult to request it, but it may
be awhile before I get approval.
Meanwhile, I found this link on the site that may be of help. It provides:
"a variety of service publications in support of Honeywell's avionics,
including Technical Newsletters, Service Bulletins, and Component
Maintenance Manuals"
It also sources several names, snail mail addresses and email addresses for
customer aid and service.
http://www.cas.honeywell.com/cs/publications.htm
Hope this helps
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
>
>
>Bob - do you sell a terminal strip for fastons? I cant find them on your web
>site. I think since I will have to make a joint at the wing root this is my
>choice method. Assuming a joint (which I know you dislike) anything against
>this?
How about this?
http://209.134.106.21/articles/wingwire/wingwire.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
Bob - thanks for that. I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
>
>
>Bob - do you sell a terminal strip for fastons? I cant find them on your
web
>site. I think since I will have to make a joint at the wing root this is my
>choice method. Assuming a joint (which I know you dislike) anything against
>this?
How about this?
http://209.134.106.21/articles/wingwire/wingwire.html
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
----snip---
> I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
> terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
They do, I have one in my hand. It's 12 circuits and says "WECO 401" on
it. Couldn't tell you where it came from, but I might could find out.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Lamb" <n254bl(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
Don't know how old that terminal strip is Bob but the old Western Electric
Company used WECO on a lot of their stuff.
Bill Lamb
----- Original Message -----
From: "RSwanson" <rswan19(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
>
> ----snip---
> > I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
> > terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
>
> They do, I have one in my hand. It's 12 circuits and says "WECO 401" on
> it. Couldn't tell you where it came from, but I might could find out.
> R
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Ludeman" <bludeman(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
Greetings,
WECO is a Canadian company. They make over 10,000 different terminal
blocks. Check out www.weco.ca
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RSwanson
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
----snip---
> I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
> terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
They do, I have one in my hand. It's 12 circuits and says "WECO 401"
on it. Couldn't tell you where it came from, but I might could find
out. R
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Help With Alternator |
I am starting to look at acquiring overvoltage protection for my alternator.
Perhaps I am too early. However, I need some info on my alternator. Can
one of you help?
I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V. No Amps
are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
(Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts and 70 Amps
(no LS suffix).
Questions:
Can I assume that my ALX-8421LS is a 12Volt, roughly 35 Amp alternator?
Can I assume that there is NO built-in regulator?
Should I slam it? note: I can use the forward weight (w&b). It only has 150
hours on it. It is a klunker - but half the volts and half the amps
probably means a similar weight.
Thanks for any help.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 20% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
Bob,
You have mentioned in earlier posts about securing RG batteries with
Velcro, avoiding the need for the weight of conventional battery boxes.
Do you have any additional information about the Velcro suitable for
this application? I'd be interested in any details about specific
materials, dimensions, securing methods and sources of supply.
Thanks in advance.
Richard Dudley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | What is the easiest CAD program for my wirebook? |
The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to modify
and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem to
have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is what
the web sites suggest.
Thanks for any insight you might have.
Jim Foerster J400
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What is the easiest CAD program for my wirebook? |
Hello Jim,
I'm using the free version of Intellicad and I'm happy with it. I had to
printout
the several hundred pages of docu to be able to work with it, but for the
diags
so far it works very well.
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program for my wirebook?
>
> The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to modify
> and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
> which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
> or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem to
> have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is what
> the web sites suggest.
> Thanks for any insight you might have.
>
> Jim Foerster J400
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Rounds <wrounds(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What is the easiest CAD program for my wirebook? |
James
I used the Turbo Cad 2d which is downloadable for free from their
website. It is more than adequate for modifying Bob's Z diagrams. Some
of the features available in the 3D version aren't available in the 2D
demo but it wasn't much of a problem. The help documentation that
comes with the program is all one needs.
Bill Rounds
N159RV finish. Electrical done
James Foerster wrote:
>
>The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to modify
>and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
>which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
>or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem to
>have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is what
>the web sites suggest.
>Thanks for any insight you might have.
>
>Jim Foerster J400
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
I have a Ball vario model 600 and when I key the mike it goes full
deflection down. I tried with my handheld near by, does the same thing. A
problem or just something you live with. Anyway to stop it?
Thanks in advance,
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Rounds <wrounds(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Oil Pressure switch rating |
Bob
Do you happen to know what the current carrying capacity is of the oil
pressure switch B & C sells. Am contemplating using it to switch on the
Navaid wing leveler since they seem insistent on not having it on during
start up. Would probably need 7 amps tops going thru the normally open
set of contacts.
Thanks
Bill Rounds
N159RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What is the easiest CAD program for my wirebook? |
I did the same as others and tried out all the free versions from various websites
etc, in the end I liked TurboCad the best as it was similar to how other windows
programs worked. However there are some features missing from the free
version (like blocks and other advanced drawing tools) So I cruized over to ebay
and was able to pickup and older version in the sealed box for $20. It works
great and I have used it for panel layout and wiring diagrams.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Finishing
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:11:38 -0700
>
>The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to modify
>and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
>which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
>or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem to
>have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is what
>the web sites suggest.
>Thanks for any insight you might have.
>
>Jim Foerster J400
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Laurence <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Help With Alternator |
Slam it!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help With Alternator
>
> I am starting to look at acquiring overvoltage protection for my
alternator.
> Perhaps I am too early. However, I need some info on my alternator. Can
> one of you help?
>
> I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V. No Amps
> are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
> (Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts and 70
Amps
> (no LS suffix).
>
> Questions:
> Can I assume that my ALX-8421LS is a 12Volt, roughly 35 Amp alternator?
> Can I assume that there is NO built-in regulator?
> Should I slam it? note: I can use the forward weight (w&b). It only has
150
> hours on it. It is a klunker - but half the volts and half the amps
> probably means a similar weight.
>
> Thanks for any help.
> Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
> Finish Kit 20% Complete
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Richard" <steve(at)oasissolutions.com> |
| Subject: | What is the easiest CAD program for my wirebook? |
Has anyone tried CircuitMaker (student version) at
http://www.microcode.com/downloads/student.htm
or Visio?
Steve Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy
Karmy
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program for my
wirebook?
I did the same as others and tried out all the free versions from various
websites etc, in the end I liked TurboCad the best as it was similar to how
other windows programs worked. However there are some features missing from
the free version (like blocks and other advanced drawing tools) So I cruized
over to ebay and was able to pickup and older version in the sealed box for
$20. It works great and I have used it for panel layout and wiring diagrams.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Finishing
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:11:38 -0700
>
>The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to modify
>and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
>which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
>or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem to
>have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is what
>the web sites suggest.
>Thanks for any insight you might have.
>
>Jim Foerster J400
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca> |
| Subject: | What is the easiest CAD program for my wir |
ebook?
Hi Steve;
Circuit maker is meant for "testing" of circuit designs. It will
produce nice schematic drawings, but this is not it's intended use.
Unfortunately the student version is limited to 50 devices. A "device"
consists of fuses, switches, etc. so it does not take long before all 50 are
used up. If you are using it for a few separate, simple circuit drawings, it
will work, but anything more complex or an overview of your system would
require the full version which is very $$$$$$$.
S. Todd Bartrim
13B rotary powered
RV-9endurance (finish kit)
C-FSTB (reserved)
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Richard [SMTP:steve(at)oasissolutions.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 10:50 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program for
> my wirebook?
>
>
>
> Has anyone tried CircuitMaker (student version) at
>
> http://www.microcode.com/downloads/student.htm
>
> or Visio?
>
> Steve Richard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy
> Karmy
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program for my
> wirebook?
>
>
>
> I did the same as others and tried out all the free versions from various
> websites etc, in the end I liked TurboCad the best as it was similar to
> how
> other windows programs worked. However there are some features missing
> from
> the free version (like blocks and other advanced drawing tools) So I
> cruized
> over to ebay and was able to pickup and older version in the sealed box
> for
> $20. It works great and I have used it for panel layout and wiring
> diagrams.
>
> - Andy Karmy
> RV9A - Finishing
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com>
> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:11:38 -0700
>
>
> >
> >The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to modify
> >and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
> >which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
> >or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem to
> >have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is what
> >the web sites suggest.
> >Thanks for any insight you might have.
> >
> >Jim Foerster J400
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What is the easiest CAD program for my wir |
ebook?
Well, that was a much more polite answer than the one I got when I suggested
it several months ago.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program for my wir
ebook?
>
> Hi Steve;
> Circuit maker is meant for "testing" of circuit designs. It will
> produce nice schematic drawings, but this is not it's intended use.
> Unfortunately the student version is limited to 50 devices. A "device"
> consists of fuses, switches, etc. so it does not take long before all 50
are
> used up. If you are using it for a few separate, simple circuit drawings,
it
> will work, but anything more complex or an overview of your system would
> require the full version which is very $$$$$$$.
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> 13B rotary powered
> RV-9endurance (finish kit)
> C-FSTB (reserved)
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Richard [SMTP:steve(at)oasissolutions.com]
> > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 10:50 AM
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program
for
> > my wirebook?
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone tried CircuitMaker (student version) at
> >
> > http://www.microcode.com/downloads/student.htm
> >
> > or Visio?
> >
> > Steve Richard
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy
> > Karmy
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the easiest CAD program for my
> > wirebook?
> >
> >
> >
> > I did the same as others and tried out all the free versions from
various
> > websites etc, in the end I liked TurboCad the best as it was similar to
> > how
> > other windows programs worked. However there are some features missing
> > from
> > the free version (like blocks and other advanced drawing tools) So I
> > cruized
> > over to ebay and was able to pickup and older version in the sealed box
> > for
> > $20. It works great and I have used it for panel layout and wiring
> > diagrams.
> >
> > - Andy Karmy
> > RV9A - Finishing
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com>
> > Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:11:38 -0700
> >
> >
> > >
> > >The predrawn diagrams in the 'Connection are great, but I need to
modify
> > >and combine several of the "Z" diagrams. Does anyone have an opinion
> > >which of the two affordable CAD programs are easier to learn? TurboCAD
> > >or Intellicad? I intend to buy the program as the free versions seem
to
> > >have less in the way of tutorial and ease of use. At least that is
what
> > >the web sites suggest.
> > >Thanks for any insight you might have.
> > >
> > >Jim Foerster J400
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carl Coulter <coulter(at)gci.net> |
> From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help With Alternator
>
>
> I am starting to look at acquiring overvoltage protection for my
> alternator.Perhaps I am too early. However, I need some info on
> my alternator. Can
> one of you help?
>
> I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V.
> No Amps
> are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
> (Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts
> and 70 Amps
> (no LS suffix).
*******************************
Try these two web sites:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/service_publications/service_ins
tructions_recent/SI1154J.pdf
http://www.kellyaerospace.com/2002cd/Catalogs/PriceBook_ESI.pdf
They both act like it is 12V, 70A.
carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carl Coulter <coulter(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help With Alternator |
> From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help With Alternator
>
>
> I am starting to look at acquiring overvoltage protection for my
> alternator.Perhaps I am too early. However, I need some info on
> my alternator. Can
> one of you help?
>
> I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V.
> No Amps
> are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
> (Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts
> and 70 Amps
> (no LS suffix).
**********************************************
Just out of curosity, did you buy this from Wayne Riggs? There was an
almost identical post on the Glastar net quite a while back.
carl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! |
Dear Listers,
I've just added four new email Lists to the current lineup at
Matronics. These new lists include:
KRNet:
krnet-List(at)matronics.com The RANS KR1 and KR2 Series
Cub:
cub-List(at)matronics.com The Piper J-3 Cub
RV10:
rv10-List(at)matronics.com The New 4-place RV from Van's!
Europa:
europa(at)matronics.com The Slick European Composite
All the usual features are available with the new Lists including the
search engine, archive download, 7-day List browse, and PhotoShare!
To sign up for any or all of the new lists, please go to the List
Subscription page and put in your email address and select the Lists of
your choice. The URL for the Subscription page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscibe
Don't forget that its your posts that generate traffic on the respective
Lists! Post an introduction and a description of your project or dreams!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [With Good URL This Time!] Four New Email Lists At |
Matronics!!
[Typo in the subscribe page URL last time - SORRY! -Matt]
Dear Listers,
I've just added four new email Lists to the current lineup at
Matronics. These new lists include:
KRNet:
krnet-List(at)matronics.com The RANS KR1 and KR2 Series
Cub:
cub-List(at)matronics.com The Piper J-3 Cub
RV10:
rv10-List(at)matronics.com The New 4-place RV from Van's!
Europa:
europa(at)matronics.com The Slick European Composite
All the usual features are available with the new Lists including the
search engine, archive download, 7-day List browse, and PhotoShare!
To sign up for any or all of the new lists, please go to the List
Subscription page and put in your email address and select the Lists of
your choice. The URL for the Subscription page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Don't forget that its your posts that generate traffic on the respective
Lists! Post an introduction and a description of your project or dreams!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Help With Alternator |
I can find out what it is for you on Monday.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V. No Amps
>are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
>(Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts and 70 Amps
>(no LS suffix).
>
>Questions:
>Can I assume that my ALX-8421LS is a 12Volt, roughly 35 Amp alternator?
>Can I assume that there is NO built-in regulator?
>Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
> Finish Kit 20% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marty Neethling" <porchezn(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/04/02 |
Hi Ernest,
It looks as if you have the 24V Prestilote unit but visit this site http://www.2aps.com/esi_alt.htm, they have a lot of data on all alternators and I am sure you will find yours there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marty Neethling" <porchezn(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/04/02 |
Ernest,
Found what I was looking for : http://www.kellyaerospace.com/2002cd/Catalogs/PriceBook_ESI.pdfand click on product information in left window to see how alternator designations work
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | emrath <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Help With Alternator |
I have a Prestolite ALU-8421 which I was advised was 24v when purchasing
my engine. It has 50 hours since new. Others on this list have said
this is at least 70 amp. If anyone would like this, with voltage
regulator and 24v. Light weight starter, let me know. I won't be using
it. Lots of production plane using these.
Marty in Brentwood TN
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Help With Alternator
-->
I can find out what it is for you on Monday.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V. No
>Amps are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
>(Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts and 70
>Amps (no LS suffix).
>
>Questions:
>Can I assume that my ALX-8421LS is a 12Volt, roughly 35 Amp alternator?
>Can I assume that there is NO built-in regulator? Ernest Kells - RV-9A
>O235-N2C, Wood Prop Finish Kit 20% Complete
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Pressure switch rating |
>
>Bob
>
>Do you happen to know what the current carrying capacity is of the oil
>pressure switch B & C sells. Am contemplating using it to switch on the
>Navaid wing leveler since they seem insistent on not having it on during
>start up. Would probably need 7 amps tops going thru the normally open
>set of contacts.
I doubt that the draw is even that heavy. Are you really sure
you want to do this with an oil pressure switch? First, I am
skeptical that your electrical system is going to have any
characteristics that are unfriendly to their electronics.
Those oil pressure switches are not the most whippy switch
I ever opened up . . . wouldn't mind using them for the
classic tasks of driving an hour-meter, etc. but I don't
think I'd run any really USEFUL accessory through them.
If you really want to shut something off for any part of
the flight operations, it's really hard to beat a switch
on the panel.
I've written the folks at Navaid several asking them to
be more explicit on what parts of their product is at risk
and offered free assistance in hardening up their circuitry.
Never heard back from them. Sooo . . . odds are that they
don't KNOW what parts are vulnerable and/or they don't
KNOW what systems in the airplane are potential antagonists.
They're simply repeating the decades old mantra that strives
to shield 'delicate' electronics from 'nasty' gremlins . . . both
of which don't exist.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
>
>
>Bob - thanks for that. I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
>terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
I think there are . . . I used to build them by mounting double tab
male fast-ons on single row barrier strips and I've seen a number
of commercial products. I note that others on the list have identified
at least one manufacturer (WECO) . . . there have to be dozens. I'm
just not familar with any.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Garfield Willis <garwillis(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Pressure switch rating |
wrote:
>The guy would designed the Navaid is longer flying the friendly skies with us(aircraft
>accident IIRC). I went to visit the Navaid "factory" some time ago and I do not
recommend
>that anyone using a Navaid do that. It's analagous to liking hot dogs or sandwich
meat--you
>really don't want to know how they're made. The Navaid folks just assemble the
product
>according to their instructions. They can do basic electronic trouble-shooting/diagnostics,
>and give information off of their stat sheet, but that's about it.
Where is the 'factory' ? (no I don't intend to go, but my hanger-mate
with one might want to, despite your cautions; I guess he can handle the
mystery-meat process).
Also, does anyone recall who the original designer was?
TIA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Pressure switch rating |
641 North Market Street
Chattanooga, TN
Be advised that there are two Market Streets (one in the "new" downtown section
and another
across the river) in Chattanooga and the "factory" looks like a house and the numbers
aren't
very visible from the street.
Garfield Willis wrote:
>
> wrote:
>
> >The guy would designed the Navaid is longer flying the friendly skies with us(aircraft
> >accident IIRC). I went to visit the Navaid "factory" some time ago and I do
not recommend
> >that anyone using a Navaid do that. It's analagous to liking hot dogs or sandwich
meat--you
> >really don't want to know how they're made. The Navaid folks just assemble
the product
> >according to their instructions. They can do basic electronic trouble-shooting/diagnostics,
> >and give information off of their stat sheet, but that's about it.
>
> Where is the 'factory' ? (no I don't intend to go, but my hanger-mate
> with one might want to, despite your cautions; I guess he can handle the
> mystery-meat process).
>
> Also, does anyone recall who the original designer was?
>
> TIA
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Pressure switch rating |
>
>Also, does anyone recall who the original designer was?
>
Doug Spears. Died in a Mustang II that crashed on takeoff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Coax Cable Routing |
Could someone please advise:
Should coax cable for communication antenna be routed together with
electrical wires?
Would the electrical cables interfere with transmitting or receiving?
The electrical cables are: flap motor power, nav, tail and taxi lights, fuel
level, strobe power (14 volts, not the high side) and push to talk.
Thanks in advance.
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6 "final wiring" (when will it end?))
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax Cable Routing |
>
>
>Could someone please advise:
>Should coax cable for communication antenna be routed together with
>electrical wires?
They can be . . .
>Would the electrical cables interfere with transmitting or receiving?
>The electrical cables are: flap motor power, nav, tail and taxi lights, fuel
>level, strobe power (14 volts, not the high side) and push to talk.
>Thanks in advance.
No . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | microphone wiring |
>Bob,
> I've watched your posts on the RV-List, found them informative
> and helpful. Your AeroElectric Connection book has been very helpful in
> planning and wiring my RV-6. The bird flies like a dream, and so far
> I've been able to keep the smoke in the wires.
>
> Thus far, I've not been able to find a good source of information
> on the care and wiring of nav-com and intercoms. My plane is equipped
> with an old King KX170B, Microair 720, with a Sigtronics SPA 400
> intercom. I have interconnected them with a simple switching arrangement
> that allows selecting comm1 (King), comm 2, (MicroAir), both (audio
> only), nav (audio for ident).
>
> My problem is, I've describe my circuitry to a good A&P, and I
> think I've improperly wired the switches for comm selection.
>
> I've used a DPDT miniature toggle to switch the Mic audio and
> Headset audio to either comm1, or comm 2, with a SPST miniature toggle to
> either connect or remain open across the headset audio switch lugs of the
> DPDT switch. The configuration works, and communications are clear,
> according to all reports I've received during the last year.
>
> My A&P tells me that I should have also included the transmitter
> key line in the switch, using a 3PDT switch, so as to key up the proper
> transmitter. My gut tells me he's right, but now I'm curious to know why
> the simpler circuit I've used hasn't caused problems during the last
> year. Many times I've had both radios tuned to the same frequency, and
> keying the mike has never created the squeal normally associated with two
> transmitters using the same frequency at the same time. In fact, the
> radio not selected will receive the information transmitted by the
> other. I've used a hand-held radio to double check, and can not detect
> any keying of the transmitter section of the non-selected radio when the
> PTT switch is keyed, and I know that the transmit key line is connected
> to both radios directly.
>
> What am I missing?
>
If you have confirmed that the non-selected transmitter is indeed
passive then you're probably okay. I'm at a loss to explain why
you are not having problems . . . the standard practice since day
one has been to switch both mic-audio and PTT lines for the
selected transmitter.
The only thing I can think of is that some modern transmitters I've
seen don't need the PTT line to make the transfer from receive to
transmit. Microphones should break both the PTT and Mic-Audio lines
when the PTT button is relaxed. This allows different microphones
to share the same input to the transmitter without interfering with
each other.
Many modern amateur transmitters sense
the microphone power current draw when a microphone is connected to
the audio circuit via the PTT switch and use this to deduce the
need to transfer from receive to transmit. I suspect that other
manufacturers may be doing the same thing - which makes the separate
PTT control lead unnecessary for those radios.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
| People are far more willing to pay |
| for being amused than for anything else. |
| -Thomas Edison- |
--------------------------------------------
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Ludeman" <bludeman(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Help With Alternator |
Greetings,
Again I'd like to remind list users that a simple Google search of a
part number will typically surprise and please you with the results.
A quick Google search of this part number brought up the manufacturer's
home page along with product details and a description of what each
letter of the model number represents.
Why ask the list when it is easier and quicker to do it yourself. In
this case, ten characters typed into Google provides immediate results
versus having to type a message to the list and hoping that someone does
the research for you.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
emrath
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Help With Alternator
I have a Prestolite ALU-8421 which I was advised was 24v when purchasing
my engine. It has 50 hours since new. Others on this list have said
this is at least 70 amp. If anyone would like this, with voltage
regulator and 24v. Light weight starter, let me know. I won't be using
it. Lots of production plane using these. Marty in Brentwood TN
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Help With Alternator
-->
I can find out what it is for you on Monday.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>I have a Electrosystem ALX-8421LS. The data plate is marked 12V. No
>Amps are specified. I can find NO documentation on this alternator
>(Prestolite???). I can only find an ALX-8421 which is 24 volts and 70
>Amps (no LS suffix).
>
>Questions:
>Can I assume that my ALX-8421LS is a 12Volt, roughly 35 Amp alternator?
>Can I assume that there is NO built-in regulator? Ernest Kells - RV-9A
>O235-N2C, Wood Prop Finish Kit 20% Complete
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Help With Alternator |
>
>
>Greetings,
>
>Again I'd like to remind list users that a simple Google search of a
>part number will typically surprise and please you with the results.
>
>A quick Google search of this part number brought up the manufacturer's
>home page along with product details and a description of what each
>letter of the model number represents.
>
>Why ask the list when it is easier and quicker to do it yourself. In
>this case, ten characters typed into Google provides immediate results
>versus having to type a message to the list and hoping that someone does
>the research for you.
Agreed . . . to a point. When someone conducts
a successful search on the 'net for any information
that might be useful to others, it's helpful to let
the list members know about both the question, answer
and the method by which you found it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Rounds <wrounds(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re Flightcom 403 intercom problems |
Bob and other helpful people,
Got the Flightcom 403 Intercom and the wiring must be goofed up because
the sidetone isn't working (have a Apollo SL40), the volume controls
won't affect the radio, and the auxilary inputs are very distorted and
low volume. the intercomm volume also won't adjust the aux. volume
either.
Bob, you posted a 403mc wiring diagram about a year ago, 403mc.pdf which
isn't on line anymore. Do you still have that diagram, maybe that woul
be a good place to start. I'm ready to scrap the current harness and
start over. If anyone else has some suggestions they would be appreciated.
Bill Rounds
N159RV thought I was done with the electrical.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Source of 100 mv current shunts |
Bob, or anyone,
It was mentioned in the 'Connection I believe that a 100 mv shunt
for 100 amps is better than a 50 mv at 50 amps because the first one has
a higher power rating. If the shunt is in the battery ground
connection, starter current flows through it. I need an 20 amp range
shunt, and at 50 mv this is 2.5 milliohms. With the starter drawing 200
amps or better, power is I squared R, or 10 watts. A 100 mv 40 amp
shunt would be better, but I can't seem to find one on Google, Allied
catalog, or Mouser.
An alternative would be a Hall effect transducer. Does B&C still
sell these?
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Stevenson" <jonste(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Brushes-early failure |
Bob
I have a 1975-1979 Honda civic alternator rated at 40 amps using a 3.25"
dia pulley on my RV 6 that experienced early brush failure (400 hrs.
tach time). I disassembled and inspected slip rings. Slip rings looked
good so I gave them a highly polished finish using 600 grit aluminum
oxide cloth on my lathe and reassembled using new brushes from the local
auto parts store. I suspect I am experiencing brush failure once again
(600 hrs. tach time) no charging at extremely heavy loads (40 plus
amps). Is their a better quality brush available or what else could lead
to early brush failure?
John Stevenson
N312SV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Flightcom 403 intercom problems |
>
>Bob and other helpful people,
>
>Got the Flightcom 403 Intercom and the wiring must be goofed up because
>the sidetone isn't working (have a Apollo SL40), the volume controls
>won't affect the radio, and the auxilary inputs are very distorted and
>low volume. the intercomm volume also won't adjust the aux. volume
>either.
>
>Bob, you posted a 403mc wiring diagram about a year ago, 403mc.pdf which
>isn't on line anymore. Do you still have that diagram, maybe that woul
>be a good place to start. I'm ready to scrap the current harness and
>start over. If anyone else has some suggestions they would be appreciated.
Here's what I found in my archives on the 403mc series
products . . .
http://216.55.140.222/temp/403-403dManual.pdf
http://216.55.140.222/temp/403mcManual.pdf
http://216.55.140.222/temp/fc403mc.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
Bob, or someone:
I was ordering some of Bob's stuff this morning. I am completely following
his philosophy and equipment, where possible. It is imbedded with some
elegant logic.
One problem. I am planning to use 9 ON-OFF switches in the panel, basically
for everything except flap actuation and trim actions. The concept is
positive control - no ambiguity. I.E: the taxi light is ON or it is OFF -
simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. However, I notice that Bob does
not list this type of switch. I really don't want an ON-OFF-ON switch (a
centre position) for binary situations. I could possibly be talked into an
ON-OFF-(ON) for the boost pump.
This surprised me. I was thinking about a switch like AN3021-2
(MS35058-22). Am I missing something here ? ?
One anomaly: I have installed a Cessna Start switch (read today's article
on PropWash for possible big brother implications to GA operators not taking
sufficient precautions to prevent theft). I guess someone may want to steal
my little RV-9A to splat it against a few thousand tons of concrete and
steel.
Thanks for any help.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 20% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
Ernest Kells wrote:
>
>
> One problem. I am planning to use 9 ON-OFF switches in the panel, basically
> for everything except flap actuation and trim actions. The concept is
> positive control - no ambiguity. I.E: the taxi light is ON or it is OFF -
> simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. However, I notice that Bob does
> not list this type of switch. I really don't want an ON-OFF-ON switch (a
> centre position) for binary situations. I could possibly be talked into an
> ON-OFF-(ON) for the boost pump.
>
*** This is something I find endlessly annoying in my Sundowner. A row of
toggle switches - some of them are binary, some of them trinary. You can't
just run your hand across the switches and know they're all off. Or ON,
for that matter.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
>I was ordering some of Bob's stuff this morning. I am completely following
>his philosophy and equipment, where possible. It is imbedded with some
>elegant logic.
>
>One problem. I am planning to use 9 ON-OFF switches in the panel, basically
>for everything except flap actuation and trim actions. The concept is
>positive control - no ambiguity. I.E: the taxi light is ON or it is OFF -
>simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. However, I notice that Bob does
>not list this type of switch. I really don't want an ON-OFF-ON switch (a
>centre position) for binary situations. I could possibly be talked into an
>ON-OFF-(ON) for the boost pump.
Take a look at chapter 8 in the book. The switches we sell offer
every combination you might need but not necessarily a switch
that is LIMITED to any particular task. Our S700-1-3 switch
is a single pole, double throw switch with the capability of
being an ON-ON function. It becomes an ON-OFF function
when you don't hook up the other "on" to anything.
>This surprised me. I was thinking about a switch like AN3021-2
>(MS35058-22). Am I missing something here ? ?
>
>One anomaly: I have installed a Cessna Start switch (read today's article
>on PropWash for possible big brother implications to GA operators not taking
>sufficient precautions to prevent theft). I guess someone may want to steal
>my little RV to splat it against a few thousand tons of concrete and
>steel.
Fear is the biggest tool anyone has to bend you to their
will irrespective of the logic or infringements upon
your rights. A keyed mag switch is a minor inconvenience
if someone wants to steal your airplane. I once brought
a rental airplane home after I had lost the key. Didn't
even need any tools. With my bare fingers, I was able
to wiggle the terminals on the back of the switch until
they broke off. I propped the engine and replaced the
terminals when I got home. Most mags are accessible
trough oil check doors. A pair of dikes will get both
mags hot in a second or two. Twin engine airplanes of
ALL types do not have key-switches . . . gee, if one
is looking for a really BIG hammer, a KingAir would
make a much bigger mess than an RV . . .
A hardened chain and lock on the prop hub IS theft
prevention. A key-switch is not.
Common folks. If you used the time you spent watching
talking heads on TV working on your airplane instead,
you'll be much happier with the result.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
>
>Ernest Kells wrote:
> >
> >
> > One problem. I am planning to use 9 ON-OFF switches in the panel,
> basically
> > for everything except flap actuation and trim actions. The concept is
> > positive control - no ambiguity. I.E: the taxi light is ON or it is OFF -
> > simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. However, I notice that Bob does
> > not list this type of switch. I really don't want an ON-OFF-ON switch (a
> > centre position) for binary situations. I could possibly be talked into an
> > ON-OFF-(ON) for the boost pump.
> >
>*** This is something I find endlessly annoying in my Sundowner. A row of
>toggle switches - some of them are binary, some of them trinary. You can't
>just run your hand across the switches and know they're all off. Or ON,
>for that matter.
Which ones are not OFF when the full down is selected?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Brushes-early failure |
>
>Bob
>
>I have a 1975-1979 Honda civic alternator rated at 40 amps using a 3.25"
>dia pulley on my RV 6 that experienced early brush failure (400 hrs.
>tach time). I disassembled and inspected slip rings. Slip rings looked
>good so I gave them a highly polished finish using 600 grit aluminum
>oxide cloth on my lathe and reassembled using new brushes from the local
>auto parts store. I suspect I am experiencing brush failure once again
>(600 hrs. tach time) no charging at extremely heavy loads (40 plus
>amps). Is their a better quality brush available or what else could lead
>to early brush failure?
Does it charge under lighter loads? Have you measured
the voltage to the field while in operation? With
light loads at cruise RPM, field voltage can go down
below 2 volts with a properly working alternator. With
one diode open, the voltage never goes below 2 volts
and the alternator becomes unable to carry full loads.
600 grit abrasive on a slip ring surface is only slightly
better than 100 grit. Slip rings need to be diamond tool cut.
You can polish with fine steel wool using very light pressure
and a slow turning speed in the lathe. The finish you're
trying to achieve is on the order of 100 micro-inches of
roughness or better. 600 grit has a spacing of 1670 micro-
inches and even the scratches are all parallel to the
direction of rotation, they'll work pretty hard on the
brush surface.
What brand is this alternator? If not an ND, have
you considered a junk-yard takeoff? The ND alternator
with 100,000 miles on it is a better alternator than
many other new/overhauled offerings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of 100 mv current shunts |
>
>
>Bob, or anyone,
> It was mentioned in the 'Connection I believe that a 100 mv shunt
>for 100 amps is better than a 50 mv at 50 amps because the first one has
>a higher power rating. If the shunt is in the battery ground
>connection, starter current flows through it. I need an 20 amp range
>shunt, and at 50 mv this is 2.5 milliohms. With the starter drawing 200
>amps or better, power is I squared R, or 10 watts. A 100 mv 40 amp
>shunt would be better, but I can't seem to find one on Google, Allied
>catalog, or Mouser.
> An alternative would be a Hall effect transducer. Does B&C still
>sell these?
The electrical system instrumentation chapter is going to
be revised with next revision. The idea of putting a shunt
in the battery lead was a weak attempt to satisfy the
desire to have a minus-0-plus style battery ammeter.
In years since I published that section, the error of my
ways have been fully exposed. Consider using one of the
power distribution diagrams from appendix Z as published.
The battery ammeter is not a superior indicator system
and it has a lot of system design problems.
VM1000 and others have hall effect sensors that you
may easily use as a battery ammeter if you so choose.
Wouldn't do it that way on my airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> > > ON-OFF-(ON) for the boost pump.
> > >
> >*** This is something I find endlessly annoying in my Sundowner. A row of
> >toggle switches - some of them are binary, some of them trinary. You can't
> >just run your hand across the switches and know they're all off. Or ON,
> >for that matter.
>
> Which ones are not OFF when the full down is selected?
>
*** Offhand, the rotating-beacon/strobe switch. OFF is in the middle for
this one. Full down is "beacons and strobe both". Also, the landing/taxi
light switch. Up is landing, down is taxi, off is in the middle.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of 100 mv current shunts |
David Swartzendruber
Kelly Aerospace
Aerospace Engineering Division
316-755-3097
The VM1000 will not show negative current. They intend for their
current sensor to be used to sense alternator current only. If you use
it as a battery ammeter, battery discharge will be shown as zero. I
haven't demonstrated this to myself, but that is what the guys at Vision
Microsystems told me.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> VM1000 and others have hall effect sensors that you
> may easily use as a battery ammeter if you so choose.
> Wouldn't do it that way on my airplane.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Comparing apples and oranges . . . |
http://209.134.106.21/temp/Apples_and_Oranges.pdf
Hmmm . . . wonder how prunes and watermelons compare . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Generator problem |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)teleport.com> |
I know this is off topic... off - list actually... but if someone could
give me a few pointers I'd appreciate it. I have a 5kw aux power unit in my
boat that has started acting up. It will put out 120 volts for about 20
minutes and then the voltage will drop to just 8 -10 or less, just slightly
off the bottom of the meter. There aren't any other indications and repeated
attempts at restarting the generator and putting it on line show no voltage.
After a few days it will once again work fine for a while.
What sort of things can I check to figure out what has gone bad? The little
engine that powers it seems to run fine, just no output.
Thanks,
Vince Ackerman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > > > ON-OFF-(ON) for the boost pump.
> > > >
> > >*** This is something I find endlessly annoying in my Sundowner. A row of
> > >toggle switches - some of them are binary, some of them trinary. You
> can't
> > >just run your hand across the switches and know they're all off. Or ON,
> > >for that matter.
> >
> > Which ones are not OFF when the full down is selected?
> >
>*** Offhand, the rotating-beacon/strobe switch. OFF is in the middle for
>this one. Full down is "beacons and strobe both". Also, the landing/taxi
>light switch. Up is landing, down is taxi, off is in the middle.
Interesting. I've got several hundred hours in a Sundowner
and I didn't recall that. I don't think they'd get that
certified these days. Of course, that airplane was certified
under kinder, gentler rules . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Generator problem |
>
>I know this is off topic... off - list actually... but if someone could
>give me a few pointers I'd appreciate it. I have a 5kw aux power unit in my
>boat that has started acting up. It will put out 120 volts for about 20
>minutes and then the voltage will drop to just 8 -10 or less, just slightly
>off the bottom of the meter. There aren't any other indications and repeated
>attempts at restarting the generator and putting it on line show no voltage.
>After a few days it will once again work fine for a while.
>
>What sort of things can I check to figure out what has gone bad? The little
>engine that powers it seems to run fine, just no output.
Depending on the age of this machine, it probably
has slip rings and brushes. Does it have a lot of time
on it? Do you have a service manual for it? Is there
a "black box" associated with it that might be a
regulator for the alternator? If you can identify
wires from a black box that might carry field excitation
voltage to the alternator, some voltage measurements
during a brownout would be helpful. If the field
voltage goes up as the output voltage falls, then
I'd look into brush problems. Otherwise, it's most
likely a regulator problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of 100 mv current shunts |
Thanks, Bob. I will drop the idea of measuring current through the
battery. It would only be useful if there were a way to integrate the
current to estimate watt-hours lost from the battery capacity. As it
is, tracking the voltage on the busses should be good enough. Above
12.5 volts, no battery draw.
This will save me some trouble.
Jim Foerster J400--building
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > > Which ones are not OFF when the full down is selected?
> > >
> >*** Offhand, the rotating-beacon/strobe switch. OFF is in the middle for
> >this one. Full down is "beacons and strobe both". Also, the landing/taxi
> >light switch. Up is landing, down is taxi, off is in the middle.
>
> Interesting. I've got several hundred hours in a Sundowner
> and I didn't recall that. I don't think they'd get that
> certified these days. Of course, that airplane was certified
> under kinder, gentler rules . . .
>
*** In 1974.
Do you think there'd be any hope of getting an OFF-ON-ON arrangement
approved through the 337 process? Do such switches eist?
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
Section 11 in the 'Connection shows a number of ideas for hooking up
OFF-ON-ON DPDT S700-2-10. It is an interesting read because in a couple
examples, he hooks the supply to what one normally expects is the output to
achieve some interesting logic.
Tom Barnes -6 all electric, budget shot.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jerry(at)tr2.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: SPST Switches
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > > > Which ones are not OFF when the full down is selected?
> > > >
> > >*** Offhand, the rotating-beacon/strobe switch. OFF is in the middle
for
> > >this one. Full down is "beacons and strobe both". Also, the
landing/taxi
> > >light switch. Up is landing, down is taxi, off is in the middle.
> >
> > Interesting. I've got several hundred hours in a Sundowner
> > and I didn't recall that. I don't think they'd get that
> > certified these days. Of course, that airplane was certified
> > under kinder, gentler rules . . .
> >
> *** In 1974.
>
> Do you think there'd be any hope of getting an OFF-ON-ON arrangement
> approved through the 337 process? Do such switches eist?
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, CMDR David" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: BATTERY SWITCHES |
G'day Bob,
I am planning on having two alternators, a main and standby. To ensure that
both do not operate at the same time I propose to control them through a
single three position switch marked Off-Main Alt-Standby Alt.
Does this need to be an exotic break-before-make, or make before break,
switch, or will a simple toggle do?
I thought a toggle would function as a break then make switch, with any
microsecond delay with no alternator power being taken up by my very well
maintained RG battery, which would give the cockpit toys a nice ride?
Thanks for your help,
David Francis VH-ZEE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > > > Which ones are not OFF when the full down is selected?
> > > >
> > >*** Offhand, the rotating-beacon/strobe switch. OFF is in the middle for
> > >this one. Full down is "beacons and strobe both". Also, the landing/taxi
> > >light switch. Up is landing, down is taxi, off is in the middle.
> >
> > Interesting. I've got several hundred hours in a Sundowner
> > and I didn't recall that. I don't think they'd get that
> > certified these days. Of course, that airplane was certified
> > under kinder, gentler rules . . .
> >
>*** In 1974.
>
> Do you think there'd be any hope of getting an OFF-ON-ON arrangement
>approved through the 337 process? Do such switches eist?
they exist. the stumbling block may be if they exist in the same
style as the original switches. I could check the specification control
drawings for the switches used on the Sundowner at RAC. Will have
to wait until next week. I'm in a meeting at the wrong facility all
day tomorrow and then I'll be off the rest of the week to the Lancair
facility. I'm doing a custom seminar for their troops.
What you're needing is a switch with the same functionality as our
S700-2-10. This switch has a progressive transfer that would bring
the strobe on in the mid position and make the beacon wait until
the switch was full up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: BATTERY SWITCHES |
>
>
>G'day Bob,
>I am planning on having two alternators, a main and standby. To ensure that
>both do not operate at the same time I propose to control them through a
>single three position switch marked Off-Main Alt-Standby Alt.
>
>Does this need to be an exotic break-before-make, or make before break,
>switch, or will a simple toggle do?
>
>I thought a toggle would function as a break then make switch, with any
>microsecond delay with no alternator power being taken up by my very well
>maintained RG battery, which would give the cockpit toys a nice ride?
You want to AVOID making any part common to both systems.
For example, if your single selector switch broke an
over-center spring, you could end up with BOTH alternators
down.
Why make this complicated? It doesn't hurt anything if
both alternators are on at the same time. See figure
Z-12 in . . .
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of 100 mv current shunts |
>
>
>Thanks, Bob. I will drop the idea of measuring current through the
>battery. It would only be useful if there were a way to integrate the
>current to estimate watt-hours lost from the battery capacity. As it
>is, tracking the voltage on the busses should be good enough. Above
>12.5 volts, no battery draw.
> This will save me some trouble.
Obviously, if you WANT to track watt-seconds of energy
transfer into and out of the battery, you'll need a bi-polar
current sensor of reasonable accuracy. The hall effect sensor
is the way to go.
See
http://www.powell.com/hallfect.html
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/current/
These are VERY accurate
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/ss.asp?FAM=current&FT_2148=21829
This critter is less expensive but you need to add
your own amplifier.
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/datasheet.asp?PN=CSLA1CD&FAM=current&P=21830
Further, the easiest thing to do might indeed be
the 100mv shunt rated for starter current surges.
One of these could be beefy enough to take 200A
for short times.
http://www.deltecco.com/WO2-100MV-DC.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | velcro for battery boxes |
In a message dated 07/05/2002 2:55:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com Richard Dudley
writes:
" Bob, You have mentioned in earlier posts about securing RG batteries with
Velcro, avoiding the need for the weight of conventional battery boxes.
Do you have any additional information about the Velcro suitable for
this application? I'd be interested in any details about specific
materials, dimensions, securing methods and sources of supply.
Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley"
7/8/2002
Hello Richard, I haven't seen any other replies so please let me take a shot
at this. I have secured my B&C RG battery with a combination of aluminum
angles, thin plywood, and velcro.
It is not really a battery box per se, but maybe more of a battery cage since
I made no attempt to seal it, drain it, or vent it in any way. The aluminum
angles are secured to the inside fuselage bottom in the baggage compartment
with layers of fiberglass and epoxy. The cage is sized to fit my specific
battery.
There are slots cut into the aluminum angles such that two inch wide velcro
strips purchased at a local fabric store can be threaded through the slots.
Two pieces of thin plywood shield both the top of the battery and the
forward face so that any wire connections cannot come into contact with any
baggage. (The inboard side, the outboard side, and the back are shielded by
aircraft structure).
There are either slots or notches at appropriate places in the plywood pieces
that the velcro strips either go through are are held in by tension. The
velcro is fastened by threading a loop piece of velcro through one aluminum
angle and a hook piece of velcro through the other opposite aluminum angle.
By facing the velcro hooks and loops in the proper manner and bringing the
free ends up over the piece of plywood on the top and then mashing them
together one can form a complete loop with four layers of velcro cloth
connecting together across the top of the battery.
Two of these velcro loops run fore and aft and one runs crosswise. It Makes a
total of 12 strips of cloth running across the top of the battery.
The direction of pull across the top and the 90 degree bend going down the
sides make it almost impossible for the velcro hooks and loops to separate --
the nylon cloth strips would have to fail in tension before the hooks and
loops would separate.
It is light, simple, fairly inexpensive, and strong. Seems to fill my needs.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | microphone gain & MicroAir 760 radio |
The Microair 760 manual talks about adjusting the microphone gain for use in noisy
environments,
but there don't seem to be any controls on the radio for this. Anyone know how
this works? Do
some headsets have such a control on them?
While we're on the subject, I'm having a problem with my Flightcom 403mc intercom.
I can hear the
radio loud & clear, but the intercom itself is extremely quiet. I can just barely
hear my
passenger talking, even with the intercom volume turned way up. The passenger
has the same
problem hearing me. Any ideas?
http://sbc.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Ignition Noise in the Audio |
I need a little help thinking this through:
I am getting excessive ignition noise audible in my comm radio, a
Microair 760. It
takes about 80% of the available squelch to cover the noise when no one is
transmitting. My plastic airplane has an O-200. It has 2 Bendix S4
mags on it,
and no alternator (radio from battery only). I noticed that a handheld
radio also
picks up a lot of ignition noise from the engine when held near the
airplane, so I
think my Microair is probably not the culprit. I notice that when only
one mag is
powering the engine things get a little quieter (requiring only about
65% of the
available squelch). It doesn't seem to matter which mag, though one mag
makes
a slightly different sound than the other.
The only thing I have tried so far is to pull the p-leads from both mags
and run the
engine. 95% of the noise is still there. This makes me think that I am
getting the noise
directly from the mags themselves, or probably more likely the ignition
harness. I have
heard of people using filter capacitors on mags. Do I need one of
these? Or, alternately,
I think my ignition harness is of the sheilded type, but its old. Do
their sheilding properties
diminish with age? Or if I had one broken shield on each harness, would
this also cause
this kind of problem? How can I be sure that I have a shielded harness?
My wires have
a greenish braided covering with threaded ends...
Thanks for any info anyone may provide!
Matt Prather
VariEze N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: microphone gain & MicroAir 760 radio |
>
>The Microair 760 manual talks about adjusting the microphone gain for use
>in noisy environments,
>but there don't seem to be any controls on the radio for this. Anyone
>know how this works? Do
>some headsets have such a control on them?
I'm totally mystified as to why anyone would adjust a gain
to compensate for noisy environment . . . the end product of
received signal intelligibility is a function of signal to
noise ratio. Adjusting system gain has an equal effect upon
both signal (voice) and noise. If you have a problem with
perceived background noise in your signal as others hear
you, you need a better microphone. Some do much a much
better job than others at attenuating ambient noise with
respect to your voice.
>While we're on the subject, I'm having a problem with my Flightcom 403mc
>intercom. I can hear the
>radio loud & clear, but the intercom itself is extremely quiet. I can
>just barely hear my
>passenger talking, even with the intercom volume turned way up. The
>passenger has the same
>problem hearing me. Any ideas?
This IS a gain problem within the intercom. The procedure
is to first set up the gains on your intercom and headsets
such that you can speak to each other comfortably. THEN
adjust the volume on the radio so that it too is at
the desired level.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition Noise in the Audio |
>
>I need a little help thinking this through:
>
>I am getting excessive ignition noise audible in my comm radio, a
>Microair 760. It
>takes about 80% of the available squelch to cover the noise when no one is
>transmitting. My plastic airplane has an O-200. It has 2 Bendix S4
>mags on it,
>and no alternator (radio from battery only). I noticed that a handheld
>radio also
>picks up a lot of ignition noise from the engine when held near the
>airplane, so I
>think my Microair is probably not the culprit. I notice that when only
>one mag is
>powering the engine things get a little quieter (requiring only about
>65% of the
>available squelch). It doesn't seem to matter which mag, though one mag
>makes
>a slightly different sound than the other.
>
>The only thing I have tried so far is to pull the p-leads from both mags
>and run the
>engine. 95% of the noise is still there. This makes me think that I am
>getting the noise
>directly from the mags themselves, or probably more likely the ignition
>harness. I have
>heard of people using filter capacitors on mags. Do I need one of
>these? Or, alternately,
>I think my ignition harness is of the sheilded type, but its old. Do
>their sheilding properties
>diminish with age? Or if I had one broken shield on each harness, would
>this also cause
>this kind of problem? How can I be sure that I have a shielded harness?
> My wires have
>a greenish braided covering with threaded ends...
Used to fly a Cub with a C-85 engine that was about
the loudest ignition noise source I'd ever seen. Radios
of any kind were all but totally overwhelmed. Capacitors
on the p-leads are not helpful. The problem lies totally
within the plug harnesses and to a lesser extent with
magneto design (if they are plastic cap mags).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How to wire a GPS/NAV Indicator |
| From: | "Mike Gray" <mgray(at)graymatter.org> |
I would be grateful if any of the experienced builders on the list could
advise how to wire a single VOR display (KI-206) to both a GPS (KLN-35)
and Nav (KNS-80).
I have a relay (Advanced Electronics RSU-21 originally for Loran/nav)
and have the appropriate pinouts. Wiring this, the control switch
(GPS/NAV) and the WAYPT and MSG lights is no problem, however I'm not
sure if I have to switch or ground the stator connections from the
KNS-80 to the KI-206 while the GPS (which uses only FROM,TO,Left,Right)
is used.
Since the relay unit includes both relay and CMOS switching I am
assuming I should use the relay connections for the display as a
failsafe. (I think of the NAV as the failsafe as this would allow an
ILS/glideslope approach if the relay unit failed and the weather closed
in.) The CMOS could switch the LED indicators giving the added benefit
that if the relay unit went down neither the NAV or GPS LED would light.
Does my logic make sense? Any further suggestions?
Mike Gray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: SPST Switches |
Hello, Bob and others:
Thanks to everyone for their response. Per Bob's email I will go with the
S700-1-3, wiring the one side.
Two comments:
First, I understand Jerry's comments regarding the collage of switches on
his Sundowner. I can live with the above solution, but I would prefer the
ON OFF scenario. Binary. Not sometimes the switch is off in the centre,
sometimes in the down position. I was going to get the coloured booties
(red, white blue and green) to organize and colour-code the functions. This
is similar to the flight controls. On a go-around do you do push in the
throttle, pull out the mixture, er was that push or pull the prop, carb heat
? ? boost pump ?? A complicated solution must have some major benefit to
offset simplicity and consistancy.
Second, Bob's comments about the usefulness of the Cessna start switch is
well known. He is right on all counts. However, when some thief crashes my
plane into a schoolyard full of kids will the lawyers make certain that
Bob's logic is perfectly understandable to all the jurors.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SPST Switches
> Fear is the biggest tool anyone has to bend you to their
> will irrespective of the logic or infringements upon
> your rights. A keyed mag switch is a minor inconvenience
> if someone wants to steal your airplane. I once brought
> a rental airplane home after I had lost the key. Didn't
> even need any tools. With my bare fingers, I was able
> to wiggle the terminals on the back of the switch until
> they broke off. I propped the engine and replaced the
> terminals when I got home. Most mags are accessible
> trough oil check doors. A pair of dikes will get both
> mags hot in a second or two. Twin engine airplanes of
> ALL types do not have key-switches . . . gee, if one
> is looking for a really BIG hammer, a KingAir would
> make a much bigger mess than an RV . . .
>
> A hardened chain and lock on the prop hub IS theft
> prevention. A key-switch is not.
>
> Common folks. If you used the time you spent watching
> talking heads on TV working on your airplane instead,
> you'll be much happier with the result.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
> | discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: velcro for battery boxes |
Thanks for your reply OC!
I was beginning to think that I was the only one who received my post on
the list.
The general idea is attractive. I was hoping to avoid having to "invent"
details that others had already worked out.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 07/05/2002 2:55:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com Richard Dudley
> writes:
>
> " Bob, You have mentioned in earlier posts about securing RG batteries with
> Velcro, avoiding the need for the weight of conventional battery boxes.
> Do you have any additional information about the Velcro suitable for
> this application? I'd be interested in any details about specific
> materials, dimensions, securing methods and sources of supply.
> Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley"
>
> 7/8/2002
>
> Hello Richard, I haven't seen any other replies so please let me take a shot
> at this. I have secured my B&C RG battery with a combination of aluminum
> angles, thin plywood, and velcro.
>
> It is not really a battery box per se, but maybe more of a battery cage since
> I made no attempt to seal it, drain it, or vent it in any way. The aluminum
> angles are secured to the inside fuselage bottom in the baggage compartment
> with layers of fiberglass and epoxy. The cage is sized to fit my specific
> battery.
>
> There are slots cut into the aluminum angles such that two inch wide velcro
> strips purchased at a local fabric store can be threaded through the slots.
> Two pieces of thin plywood shield both the top of the battery and the
> forward face so that any wire connections cannot come into contact with any
> baggage. (The inboard side, the outboard side, and the back are shielded by
> aircraft structure).
>
> There are either slots or notches at appropriate places in the plywood pieces
> that the velcro strips either go through are are held in by tension. The
> velcro is fastened by threading a loop piece of velcro through one aluminum
> angle and a hook piece of velcro through the other opposite aluminum angle.
> By facing the velcro hooks and loops in the proper manner and bringing the
> free ends up over the piece of plywood on the top and then mashing them
> together one can form a complete loop with four layers of velcro cloth
> connecting together across the top of the battery.
>
> Two of these velcro loops run fore and aft and one runs crosswise. It Makes a
> total of 12 strips of cloth running across the top of the battery.
>
> The direction of pull across the top and the 90 degree bend going down the
> sides make it almost impossible for the velcro hooks and loops to separate --
> the nylon cloth strips would have to fail in tension before the hooks and
> loops would separate.
>
> It is light, simple, fairly inexpensive, and strong. Seems to fill my needs.
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | velcro for battery boxes |
> I was beginning to think that I was the only one who received my post on
> the list.
> The general idea is attractive. I was hoping to avoid having to "invent"
> details that others had already worked out.
I have another perspective, having just installed duel batteries on my Cozy
IV.
Per Cozy plans, I wrapped the lower part of the battery in duct tape and did
a small layup onto the spar and an inch up the sides of the battery. After
cure, this forms a perfect tray. Next I'll add an aluminum strap bolted to
the firewall. This is the way we epoxy types do it.
John Slade
Cozy IV http:/kgarden.com/cozy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: velcro for battery boxes |
Thanks for the reply, John.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A Panel
John Slade wrote:
>
>
> > I was beginning to think that I was the only one who received my post on
> > the list.
> > The general idea is attractive. I was hoping to avoid having to "invent"
> > details that others had already worked out.
>
> I have another perspective, having just installed duel batteries on my Cozy
> IV.
> Per Cozy plans, I wrapped the lower part of the battery in duct tape and did
> a small layup onto the spar and an inch up the sides of the battery. After
> cure, this forms a perfect tray. Next I'll add an aluminum strap bolted to
> the firewall. This is the way we epoxy types do it.
> John Slade
> Cozy IV http:/kgarden.com/cozy
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How to wire a GPS/NAV Indicator |
>
>I would be grateful if any of the experienced builders on the list could
>advise how to wire a single VOR display (KI-206) to both a GPS (KLN-35)
>and Nav (KNS-80).
>
>I have a relay (Advanced Electronics RSU-21 originally for Loran/nav)
>and have the appropriate pinouts. Wiring this, the control switch
>(GPS/NAV) and the WAYPT and MSG lights is no problem, however I'm not
>sure if I have to switch or ground the stator connections from the
>KNS-80 to the KI-206 while the GPS (which uses only FROM,TO,Left,Right)
>is used.
>
>Since the relay unit includes both relay and CMOS switching I am
>assuming I should use the relay connections for the display as a
>failsafe. (I think of the NAV as the failsafe as this would allow an
>ILS/glideslope approach if the relay unit failed and the weather closed
>in.) The CMOS could switch the LED indicators giving the added benefit
>that if the relay unit went down neither the NAV or GPS LED would light.
>
>Does my logic make sense? Any further suggestions?
I'd have to study the manuals for the various components.
I did a switch-box design B&C a few years back that would
make a King vor combo share the obs/cdi indicator with
several brands of gps receivers. We did ALL of the switching
between radios and indicator on dry relay contacts to avoid
any issues with leakages, on-resistance, silicon sneak paths,
etc.
I'm not sure what your options are with respect to cmos
switching . . .
Any connections not shared by the indicator to a given
radio are simply left unconnected. Don't ground them or otherwise
terminate them unless you have installation instructions
that specifically tell you otherwise.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: velcro for battery boxes |
>
>In a message dated 07/05/2002 2:55:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com Richard Dudley
>writes:
>
>" Bob, You have mentioned in earlier posts about securing RG batteries with
> Velcro, avoiding the need for the weight of conventional battery boxes.
> Do you have any additional information about the Velcro suitable for
> this application? I'd be interested in any details about specific
> materials, dimensions, securing methods and sources of supply.
> Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley"
I've got a field trip planned to several stores to see
if I can find 1" webbing with 6" or longer, mating velcro
strips SEWN on. This combo has a tensile strength of better
than 200#. Two strips would qualify as adequate restraint
for a battery mounted behind you in an airplane.
For any other technique, make sure what you do will resist
300-400# pull on a rapidly decelerating mass of lead and
plastic. I seem to recall that one of amateur-built
aviation's famous got creamed in the back of the head
with a toolbox a while back. Batteries aren't any
friendlier.
Batteries mounted forward of the passengers and crew
are not so critical. RV's with the battery against the
firewall poses no big crash threat that can be mitigated
by heavy restraints. Some have argued a reduction in fire
hazard by putting rubber booties over exposed hardware
but belive me, those booties will be no barrier to crash
driven shorts finding their way to the nuts and bolts.
If your airplane gets so bent up that there is risk
of shorting out the hot wire between battery (+) and
the battery contactor, it's unlikely that your body
will care much.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: microphone gain (dissenting opinion) |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >The Microair 760 manual talks about adjusting the microphone gain for use
> >in noisy environments,
> >but there don't seem to be any controls on the radio for this. Anyone
> >know how this works? Do
> >some headsets have such a control on them?
>
> I'm totally mystified as to why anyone would adjust a gain
> to compensate for noisy environment . . . the end product of
> received signal intelligibility is a function of signal to
> noise ratio. Adjusting system gain has an equal effect upon
> both signal (voice) and noise. If you have a problem with
> perceived background noise in your signal as others hear
> you, you need a better microphone. Some do much a much
> better job than others at attenuating ambient noise with
> respect to your voice.
>
snipped
Bob,
I hate to disagree with someone of your knowledge &
experience, but I feel that an expanded perspective might be
in order.
There can be some justification for Microair's instructions
because gain can actually affect overall signal to noise.
Some observations are in order. This stuff is a lot easier
to demonstrate than describe, so bare with me.
Consider first that any amplification system has a limited
maximum output. At some level of ambient noise, plus signal
(voice), all multiplied times the gain of the system, you
will drive the system into distortion. Signal to noise just
got a lot worse than measured specs for the system. If you
reduce the system gain, you can now position the mic closer
to your mouth and speak louder as well. You have just
improved the overall signal to noise ratio by raising the
input signal level relative to the input noise level.
So, while the previous statements were technically correct,
this is 'the rest of the story.'
re: adjusting mic gain. Many electret condenser mics used in
today's headsets have gain controls included in the mic
module. These mic modules include a preamplifier stage to
raise the level of the low-output condenser mic element to
traditional dynamic mic levels to match the rather loose
'standard' signal level expected by a/c radios. The points
about system gain apply to this single stage of gain as
well. Lightspeed told me to lower the mic gain on my 15XL's
when I had a problem with intermittant noise in the
headsets.
I hope this is useful info.
Charlie
audio engineer in another life
Slobovia Outernational Airport
Pocahontas MS
(Yes, there is a story behind the name.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Reading Battery Amperage |
In a message dated 07/09/2002 2:52:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com "David Swartzendruber"
dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net writes: "The VM1000 will not show negative
current. They intend for their
current sensor to be used to sense alternator current only. If you use
it as a battery ammeter, battery discharge will be shown as zero. I
haven't demonstrated this to myself, but that is what the guys at Vision
Microsystems told me" . David Swartzendruber
7/9/2002
Hello David, I have a VM1000 system installed in my airplane under
construction and I find what you were told to be a bit puzzling.
My amperage transducer is installed on the alternator output (B cable) per VM
instructions. Here is how their instructions for installing the amperage
transducer read: "Route the wire which originates from the alternator output
(usuallly marked 'BAT' INTO the circuit board side and OUT the sensor (round
black device) side. See Figure 11: Amps Transducer Orientation. If properly
installed, the AMPS readout will increase as more electrical loads are turned
on and the alternator is active Shielded alternator wire is OK".
My opinion is that anytime a wire running through the transducer has current
flowing into the circuit board side and out the sensor side of the transducer
as designed there will be an appropriate amperage reading on the VM1000
display.
I also think that if one chose to run one of the battery cables through the
transducer, instead of the alternator out cable, and placed the transducer on
the "correct" battery cable with the "proper" orientation that the VM1000
system would then show the amperage flowing through that cable. Would that
not then be battery amperage?
I also opine that if one installs the transducer "backwards" on any wire then
very likely there will be a zero or no reading of amperage on the VM1000
display.
What do you think? Can you confirm the above with Vision Microsystems?
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Reading Battery Amperage |
"OC",
Everything you say agrees with what I understand about the VM1000. The
difference between measuring alternator current and battery current is that
alternator current is always in the same direction, while battery current
can be in either direction. Since the VM1000 will only measure current in
one direction, it's not so great for battery current.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
> 7/9/2002
>
> Hello David, I have a VM1000 system installed in my airplane under
> construction and I find what you were told to be a bit puzzling.
>
> My amperage transducer is installed on the alternator output (B cable) per
VM
> instructions. Here is how their instructions for installing the amperage
> transducer read: "Route the wire which originates from the alternator
output
> (usuallly marked 'BAT' INTO the circuit board side and OUT the sensor
(round
> black device) side. See Figure 11: Amps Transducer Orientation. If
properly
> installed, the AMPS readout will increase as more electrical loads are
turned
> on and the alternator is active Shielded alternator wire is OK".
>
> My opinion is that anytime a wire running through the transducer has
current
> flowing into the circuit board side and out the sensor side of the
transducer
> as designed there will be an appropriate amperage reading on the VM1000
> display.
>
> I also think that if one chose to run one of the battery cables through
the
> transducer, instead of the alternator out cable, and placed the transducer
on
> the "correct" battery cable with the "proper" orientation that the VM1000
> system would then show the amperage flowing through that cable. Would that
> not then be battery amperage?
>
> I also opine that if one installs the transducer "backwards" on any wire
then
> very likely there will be a zero or no reading of amperage on the VM1000
> display.
>
> What do you think? Can you confirm the above with Vision Microsystems?
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
> dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net writes: "The VM1000 will not show negative
> current. They intend for their
> current sensor to be used to sense alternator current only. If you use
> it as a battery ammeter, battery discharge will be shown as zero. I
> haven't demonstrated this to myself, but that is what the guys at Vision
> Microsystems told me" . David Swartzendruber
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Larkin <aj_larkin(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | microphone gain (dissenting opinion) |
Bob, Charlie: Thanks for the info. I think it's probably a moot point because
neither my radio
nor my headsets seem to have gain controls anyway. Does anyone know where they
are located on the
Microair 760, David Clark H10-13X, or H10-13.4?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
R & Bruce - thanks for that! I have found the WECO site. I had a quick look
last night. The 401 indeed looks useful. It was late last night when I saw
it and need to work out the dimensions etc but it looks as though it could
be just the job.
Thanks again, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RSwanson
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
----snip---
> I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
> terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
They do, I have one in my hand. It's 12 circuits and says "WECO 401" on
it. Couldn't tell you where it came from, but I might could find out.
R
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
Hi Steve,
I too looked at the web site but I got the feeling that they only catered
for commercial quantities. Is that correct, or can I buy small amounts ?
Paul, Europa 363
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
>
> R & Bruce - thanks for that! I have found the WECO site. I had a quick
look
> last night. The 401 indeed looks useful. It was late last night when I saw
> it and need to work out the dimensions etc but it looks as though it could
> be just the job.
>
> Thanks again, Steve.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RSwanson
> Sent: 03 July 2002 22:33
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
>
>
> ----snip---
> > I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
> > terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
>
> They do, I have one in my hand. It's 12 circuits and says "WECO 401" on
> it. Couldn't tell you where it came from, but I might could find out.
> R
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James J. Varney" <jvarney(at)vfpi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/10/02 |
> From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
> R & Bruce - thanks for that! I have found the WECO site. I had a quick look
> last night. The 401 indeed looks useful. It was late last night when I saw
> it and need to work out the dimensions etc but it looks as though it could
> be just the job.
Steve check out this site:
http://www.great-atlantic1.com
I was looking at the printed catalog and they offer regular terminal
blocks and straight or 45deg faston type strips that mount on
the terminal blocks. Goto electrical, terminal blocks.
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob:
Should the B&C L-40 Alternator be grounded to the single point ground
(forest of tabs)?
The instructions that came with it do not address grounding.
Thanks
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6)
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | L-40 Alternator Cooling |
Bob:
Should blast air be used to cool the B&C L-40 Alternator? If so, where
should it be aimed at?
It looks as if the L-40 incorporates an internal fan. Is this sufficient for
cooling?
Thanks
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6)
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net> |
I'm trying to find a teflon spray which I have been told to by
Continental to obtain locally and have not been able to find it. Does
anyone know of a source for this?
Dave Ford
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <wsweet(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: L-40 Alternator |
I grounded my B&C to a universal ground tab welded to the engine mount. I
have no dedicated blast tube to the alternator. So far after some 300 hours
of operation, things are working well.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: L-40 Alternator
>
> Bob:
>
> Should the B&C L-40 Alternator be grounded to the single point ground
> (forest of tabs)?
>
> The instructions that came with it do not address grounding.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gabe A Ferrer (RV6)
> ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
> Cell: 561 758 8894
> Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John & Amy Eckel <eckel1(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: teflon spray |
Several years ago I bought teflon lubricant for my bicycle at
a bike shop.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: teflon spray
>
> I'm trying to find a teflon spray which I have been told to by
> Continental to obtain locally and have not been able to find it. Does
> anyone know of a source for this?
>
> Dave Ford
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: teflon spray |
You can also get teflon spray lubricant at any sporting goods store... it's
used to lubricate exercise treadmills.
Jim Oberst
----- Original Message -----
From: "John & Amy Eckel" <eckel1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: teflon spray
>
> Several years ago I bought teflon lubricant for my bicycle at
> a bike shop.
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
> To: "aeroelectric-list"
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: teflon spray
>
>
> >
> > I'm trying to find a teflon spray which I have been told to by
> > Continental to obtain locally and have not been able to find it. Does
> > anyone know of a source for this?
> >
> > Dave Ford
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: terminal strip for fastons |
Paul - Yes I was concerned about that too. I don't know is the answer.
James - thanks for your suggestion. I will take a look.
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
Hi Steve,
I too looked at the web site but I got the feeling that they only catered
for commercial quantities. Is that correct, or can I buy small amounts ?
Paul, Europa 363
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
>
> R & Bruce - thanks for that! I have found the WECO site. I had a quick
look
> last night. The 401 indeed looks useful. It was late last night when I saw
> it and need to work out the dimensions etc but it looks as though it could
> be just the job.
>
> Thanks again, Steve.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RSwanson
> Sent: 03 July 2002 22:33
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: terminal strip for fastons
>
>
> ----snip---
> > I wonder why there is not such a thing as a faston
> > terminal strip. Thanks again, Steve.
>
> They do, I have one in my hand. It's 12 circuits and says "WECO 401" on
> it. Couldn't tell you where it came from, but I might could find out.
> R
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Daniel Pelletier" <pelletie1(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | wiring nippo denso alternator |
Hi Bob,
I read chapter 4 of your book and have some understanding problems for my
wiring. I've a ND alternator with a "B" output for Battery but no "F" or
"G" output. I've a green socket with two wire, a Black one with a with
stripe and a White one with a green stripe. Someone wrote 1G near the Black
one and "L" near the White one.
I've too a Delco Remy voltage regulator whit three output Bat - Arm and Fld,
I have also your Over voltage device. I gonna have a dual ignition (paul
mesinger's modification of my Nippo Denso distributor. I'm unable to find a
plan to wire that device.
Your help would be appreciate.
Daniel Pelletier
601HDS/W/Soob
http://www.hotmail.com/fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Generator problem |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)teleport.com> |
The power unit doesn't have a lot of time on it, it's seldom used. I don't
have a service manual. The whole thing is encased in a metal box which is
somewhat hard to get to, but I'll look for the regulator and try and find a
way to check the voltage
Thanks
Vince
on 7/8/02 12:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net wrote:
>>
>> I know this is off topic... off - list actually... but if someone could
>> give me a few pointers I'd appreciate it. I have a 5kw aux power unit in my
>> boat that has started acting up. It will put out 120 volts for about 20
>> minutes and then the voltage will drop to just 8 -10 or less, just slightly
>> off the bottom of the meter. There aren't any other indications and repeated
>> attempts at restarting the generator and putting it on line show no voltage.
>> After a few days it will once again work fine for a while.
>>
>> What sort of things can I check to figure out what has gone bad? The little
>> engine that powers it seems to run fine, just no output.
>
> Depending on the age of this machine, it probably
> has slip rings and brushes. Does it have a lot of time
> on it? Do you have a service manual for it? Is there
> a "black box" associated with it that might be a
> regulator for the alternator? If you can identify
> wires from a black box that might carry field excitation
> voltage to the alternator, some voltage measurements
> during a brownout would be helpful. If the field
> voltage goes up as the output voltage falls, then
> I'd look into brush problems. Otherwise, it's most
> likely a regulator problem.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald A. Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/12/02 |
I got some from a sporting goods store for the bed on a treadmill. Might
try that. It says, "for fishing reels, etc." in addition to the myriad
other uses.
Ron
> From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: teflon spray
>
>
> I'm trying to find a teflon spray which I have been told to by
> Continental to obtain locally and have not been able to find it. Does
> anyone know of a source for this?
>
> Dave Ford
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | nd part number to make model chart |
It would be nice to have an ND (Nippondenso) alternator part number to
year make model chart and vice versa.
I have worked the net pretty hard and have not found one.
Has anyone found a conversion chart like that?
It would be handy in many ways.
Barry Pote RV9a chevy powered, finish kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: L-40 Alternator Cooling |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>Should blast air be used to cool the B&C L-40 Alternator? If so, where
>should it be aimed at?
>
>It looks as if the L-40 incorporates an internal fan. Is this sufficient for
>cooling?
>
>Thanks
>
>Gabe A Ferrer (RV6)
>ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
>Cell: 561 758 8894
>Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
It has always distressed me to some degree that nobody
I'm aware of has ever done a temperature survey on any
of the B&C alternator installations to see if they're
subject to temperature induced overstress as installed.
These alternators are demonstrating exemplary service
life but very few installations are heavily loaded.
The average vfr day load on a lightplane is under 10
a, vfr nite is under 20 and ifr is under 30.
If anyone were interested in doing some real critical
cooling tests on their alternator, I'd be pleased to
assist.
For the moment, all we can say is that overstressed
or not, the little buggers are hanging in very
well in the field.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: L-40 Alternator grounding |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>Should the B&C L-40 Alternator be grounded to the single point ground
>(forest of tabs)?
>
>The instructions that came with it do not address grounding.
>
>Thanks
>
>Gabe A Ferrer (RV6)
>ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
>Cell: 561 758 8894
>Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
The alternator and starter both get their
grounds though the crankcase. There is no
value in adding any form of extra ground
to either of these devices. There should
be a hefty ground strap from crankcase to
firewall ground block.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: L-40 Alternator |
>
>I grounded my B&C to a universal ground tab welded to the engine mount. I
>have no dedicated blast tube to the alternator. So far after some 300 hours
>of operation, things are working well.
>Wayne
Engine mounts should be dedicated to holding
engines on the airplane and completely independent
of the electrical system.
A ground strap from crankcase to firewall ground
stud by-passes the engine mount as a component
of the electrical system and eliminates any need
to install bond straps across the engine mount
biscuits and lets the engine mount do what it
does best without having to be concerned about both
electrical and mechanical integrity of the various
joints.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <wsweet(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: L-40 Alternator |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: L-40 Alternator
>
> >
> >I grounded my B&C to a universal ground tab welded to the engine mount. I
> >have no dedicated blast tube to the alternator. So far after some 300
hours
> >of operation, things are working well.
> >Wayne
>
> Engine mounts should be dedicated to holding
> engines on the airplane and completely independent
> of the electrical system.
>
> A ground strap from crankcase to firewall ground
> stud by-passes the engine mount as a component
> of the electrical system and eliminates any need
> to install bond straps across the engine mount
> biscuits and lets the engine mount do what it
> does best without having to be concerned about both
> electrical and mechanical integrity of the various
> joints.
>
>
> Bob . . .
My installation is as follows: a ground strap from the (-) side of the
battery goes to a top engine case bolt. The other end of this bolt is
another ground strap that goes to a tab welded to the engine mount. The
engine mount is bolted to the firewall at 5 locations, with the bolts
extending through the firewall and through airframe stringers, thereby
supplying ground to the airframe. On another tab on the engine mount several
other ground lines to ground from shielded wires, such as the alternator,
etc. My plane is an aluminum MustangII. It was my assumption that the
engine, engine mount and airframe should all be at the same ground state. As
stated, I have had no problems except with the gaud awful standard aircraft
starter and alternator.
Wayne
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wiring nippo denso alternator |
>
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I read chapter 4 of your book and have some understanding problems for my
>wiring. I've a ND alternator with a "B" output for Battery but no "F" or
>"G" output. I've a green socket with two wire, a Black one with a with
>stripe and a White one with a green stripe. Someone wrote 1G near the Black
>one and "L" near the White one.
if you have a stock ND alternator, it has a built in regulator
and cannot use the external regulator.
>I've too a Delco Remy voltage regulator whit three output Bat - Arm and Fld,
>I have also your Over voltage device. I gonna have a dual ignition (paul
>mesinger's modification of my Nippo Denso distributor. I'm unable to find a
>plan to wire that device.
lost you here. don't know about a ND distributor. you can use
the ND alternator in combination with the ov module and an
alternator b-lead disconnect contactor as shown in figure
Z-24 of the AeroElectric Connection. if you don't have a book
you can download appendix Z from my website.
use the IG (black) wire as a field control input. ignore
the white lead.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Check out :Dual alt. |
Click
here: http://www.kellyaerospace.com/index.htm/test/VoltageReg.pdf
http://www.kellyaerospace.com/index.htm/test/VoltageReg.pdf
The above is an article from Aviation Maintenance Technology magazine about
dual alt. and volt. reg,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | one wire racing alternators |
I have seen many 'racing, 1 wire' alternators in hot rod catalogs.
What is a '1 wire' alternator and how does it fit into our systems and
how does it hookup, with regards to for OV etc, per Bob's book?
Or will it work at all?
Barry Pote RV9a chevy powered
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: one wire racing alternators |
There are several pieces of information relevant to these guys in
Bob's book, as well as in the matronics archive. Send me an email
offline if you have trouble finding them.
The '1 wire' alternators are internally regulated. This allows
all of the normal alternator wiring to be hidden within the case -
so they actually do have all of the normal wires... just hidden. They
are fantastic from the standpoint of ease of installation - hook it
to the battery, a switched lead to the battery, and away you go.
However, they aren't as easy to shut down should the runaway regulator
failure mode happen. They require a contactor to disconnect them
from their heavy current connection to the battery. Once you count
the wiring to the contactor, I'm not sure you are really ahead of the
game.
Bob, you made a mention of these guys in the archive:
"There are probably failure modes within the altenrator
that will allow the machine to produce uncontrolled output
in spite of having removed +12 v from the IG lead. This
is why we have to add the external contactor."
This mentions just disconnecting the IG lead. Is there any different
effect from connection the IG to ground, instead of just floating it? I
guess what I am asking is whether the IG lead connects to the FLD lead
in some way.
Matt Prather.
----- Original Message -----
From: barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net>
Date: Monday, July 15, 2002 3:16 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: one wire racing alternators
>
> I have seen many 'racing, 1 wire' alternators in hot rod catalogs.
>
> What is a '1 wire' alternator and how does it fit into our systems and
> how does it hookup, with regards to for OV etc, per Bob's book?
>
> Or will it work at all?
>
> Barry Pote RV9a chevy powered
>
>
> _-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: one wire racing alternators |
Bob,
Nevermind. I just found the answer to my question... In the archive:
"One lead is for control of the alternator (it does
not directly supply field power . . hence cannot
be depended on for ov control). The other will be
for the automotive version of an alternator failure
warning lite. Recommend you ignore this lead and
have some form of ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF LOW VOLTAGE
that flashes a light when the bus drops below 13.0
volts."
I guess I should follow my own advice!
Matt Prather
----- Original Message -----
From: mprather(at)spro.net
Date: Monday, July 15, 2002 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: one wire racing alternators
>
> There are several pieces of information relevant to these guys in
> Bob's book, as well as in the matronics archive. Send me an email
> offline if you have trouble finding them.
>
> The '1 wire' alternators are internally regulated. This allows
> all of the normal alternator wiring to be hidden within the case -
> so they actually do have all of the normal wires... just hidden. They
> are fantastic from the standpoint of ease of installation - hook it
> to the battery, a switched lead to the battery, and away you go.
> However, they aren't as easy to shut down should the runaway regulator
> failure mode happen. They require a contactor to disconnect them
> from their heavy current connection to the battery. Once you count
> the wiring to the contactor, I'm not sure you are really ahead of the
> game.
>
> Bob, you made a mention of these guys in the archive:
>
> "There are probably failure modes within the altenrator
> that will allow the machine to produce uncontrolled output
> in spite of having removed +12 v from the IG lead. This
> is why we have to add the external contactor."
>
> This mentions just disconnecting the IG lead. Is there any different
> effect from connection the IG to ground, instead of just floating
> it? I
> guess what I am asking is whether the IG lead connects to the FLD lead
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
The 1-wire alternators are certainly internally regulated (I realize
that isn't what you asked). I grouped all of the internally regulated
alternators with the 1-wire units, however, because they have the same
fundamental safety problem - no way to control the field current from
the outside. I hadn't really thought about whether the the overvoltage
protection scheme Bob has for the internally regulated units will work
on the 1-wire units....
After snooping around I have found my source of uncertainty - The common
one-wire units are GM converted altenators. These are the ones I have
converted - from a stock internally regulated unit. The trick is to
just get the right internal regulator and then hook a jumper to the
battery lead - providing continuous excitation. Here is a link to a
description of the process:
http://mightymo.org/Proj_OneWire.html
And that's what I did.
Based on everything I have seen on the net it looks like all of the
advertised 1-wire units are GM (or derivative). I don't see any
advantage to using one of them over a standard GM alternator - which I
think are generally pretty junky compared to the ND units anyway... I
think the 1-wire units are attractive to someone who wants to wire a
hotrod and doesn't want to figure anything out.
I apologize for providing a muddled response before.
Matt Prather
----- Original Message -----
From: barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net>
Date: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:34 pm
Subject: 1 wire
> Hi Matt,
>
> thanks for the reply. I have Bob's book and and don't remember any
> words about '1 wire' alternators. But what you mention sounds like the
> PM alternators he talks about. No?
>
> I recently looked at alternators in the archive, but did not look
> for '1
> wire ' ones.
>
> Matt, are all internally regulated alternators one wire?
>
> I already bought the parts from BOB for an internally regulated
> alternator. I will be using some kind of Nippondenso, internally
> regulated model.
>
> But the '1 wire terminology in the catalogs, threw me.
> Barry Pote RV9a
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric- AeroElectric Connection book |
Hello. I have been following along with the great information being
dispensed on this list. I finally ordered the AeroElectric book and CD about
a month ago and wondered how long it takes to get them in the mail?
Dennis~
Seattle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | L40 Alternator Cooling Test |
Bob:
I'd be glad to run a cooling test on the alternator.
HOWEVER, I'm about 4 months away from flying.
I have made provisions to have a spare temperature port in my Grand Rapids
Engine Information System.
I'll be able to attach the temperature sensor most anywhere in the engine
compartment.
I'll get in contact with you after my first flight.
Thanks.
Gabe A Ferrer
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Check out Dual alt. |
>
> Click
>here: http://www.kellyaerospace.com/index.htm/test/VoltageReg.pdf
>
>http://www.kellyaerospace.com/index.htm/test/VoltageReg.pdf
>
>The above is an article from Aviation Maintenance Technology magazine about
>dual alt. and volt. reg,
The system described here parallels two alternators onto a single
bus with features that make the alternators share the total load.
If one has two identical alternators that run full time,
why not make the system TRULY redundant and have two batteries too?
In most cases, the second alternator can be a smaller, auxiliary
machine of smaller capacity that doesn't have to run full time
like the diagrams showing an SD-20 or SD-8 installation. In these
cases paralleling is not necessary or even useful.
I've designed systems like this for the Cessna and Beech
light twins . . . all they do is make the pilot "feel-good"
because the two loadmeters always read the same . . .
pretty expensive and complicated just for "feel-good"
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric Connection book |
>
>Hello. I have been following along with the great information being
>dispensed on this list. I finally ordered the AeroElectric book and CD about
>a month ago and wondered how long it takes to get them in the mail?
>
>Dennis~
>Seattle
>
How did you order the book? I've searched the primary and
backup order archives for orders to both B&C and AeroElectric
Connection. Can't find an order with your name or e-mail
address attached to it.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator and Overvoltage Protection |
| From: | "Mike Gray" <mgray(at)graymatter.org> |
Bob, I know this is slightly off topic but I would appreciate an answer
if possible.
Having just blown up one expensive car battery through a runaway
alternator I would like to include overvoltage protection in my car
using the B&C supplied unit
(A quick aside on B&C - Possibly the best service I have ever got from a
US company - I ordered last Friday and my package was delivered at 8:30
Monday -- to TOKYO, JAPAN - Well done)
Am I correct in assuming that I require the alt. relay with an
internally regulated alternator? Or would putting a 5A fuse in the field
cable with the OVM device attached to the alternator/ground work as in
OVM installation drawing, blowing the fuse if overvoltage. Does a
standard alternator continue to output if the +ve volts are removed from
the field connection?
Is there any reason this circuit would not work with a 105A alternator?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: microphone gain (dissenting opinion) |
>
>
>"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
> > >The Microair 760 manual talks about adjusting the microphone gain for use
> > >in noisy environments,
> > >but there don't seem to be any controls on the radio for this. Anyone
> > >know how this works? Do
> > >some headsets have such a control on them?
> >
> > I'm totally mystified as to why anyone would adjust a gain
> > to compensate for noisy environment . . . the end product of
> > received signal intelligibility is a function of signal to
> > noise ratio. Adjusting system gain has an equal effect upon
> > both signal (voice) and noise. If you have a problem with
> > perceived background noise in your signal as others hear
> > you, you need a better microphone. Some do much a much
> > better job than others at attenuating ambient noise with
> > respect to your voice.
> >
>snipped
>
>Bob,
>
>I hate to disagree with someone of your knowledge &
>experience, but I feel that an expanded perspective might be
>in order.
>
>There can be some justification for Microair's instructions
>because gain can actually affect overall signal to noise.
>Some observations are in order. This stuff is a lot easier
>to demonstrate than describe, so bare with me.
>
>Consider first that any amplification system has a limited
>maximum output. At some level of ambient noise, plus signal
>(voice), all multiplied times the gain of the system, you
>will drive the system into distortion. Signal to noise just
>got a lot worse than measured specs for the system. If you
>reduce the system gain, you can now position the mic closer
>to your mouth and speak louder as well. You have just
>improved the overall signal to noise ratio by raising the
>input signal level relative to the input noise level.
You've inserted a new variable. If one has overwhelmed
the system's dynamic range, then too much overall gain
will indeed overdrive the system adding to the apparent
noise.
>So, while the previous statements were technically correct,
>this is 'the rest of the story.'
>
>re: adjusting mic gain. Many electret condenser mics used in
>today's headsets have gain controls included in the mic
>module. These mic modules include a preamplifier stage to
>raise the level of the low-output condenser mic element to
>traditional dynamic mic levels to match the rather loose
>'standard' signal level expected by a/c radios. The points
>about system gain apply to this single stage of gain as
>well.
> Lightspeed told me to lower the mic gain on my 15XL's
>when I had a problem with intermittant noise in the
>headsets.
What was the intermittent "noise" . . . squelch
breaking, feedback, ????? There can be numerous
reasons that reducing gain can improve behavior
of a system without changing the signal to noise
ratio of the adjusted system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator and Overvoltage Protection |
>
>Bob, I know this is slightly off topic but I would appreciate an answer
>if possible.
>
>Having just blown up one expensive car battery through a runaway
>alternator I would like to include overvoltage protection in my car
>using the B&C supplied unit
>
>(A quick aside on B&C - Possibly the best service I have ever got from a
>US company - I ordered last Friday and my package was delivered at 8:30
>Monday -- to TOKYO, JAPAN - Well done)
>
>Am I correct in assuming that I require the alt. relay with an
>internally regulated alternator? Or would putting a 5A fuse in the field
>cable with the OVM device attached to the alternator/ground work as in
>OVM installation drawing, blowing the fuse if overvoltage. Does a
>standard alternator continue to output if the +ve volts are removed from
>the field connection?
Most internally regulated alternators do not use the + control
lead to power the field. There are failure modes internal to the
regulator circuitry that will not shut down a runaway alternator.
>Is there any reason this circuit would not work with a 105A alternator?
Should work just fine with either a fuse or circuit breaker
for the crowbar module to work against. You may want to
use a larger contactor than the S701-1 device shown in
our catalog. This is nominally a 50A device for switching
service that will carry hundreds of amps intermittently
for cranking. I've not had any experience with it in a
system that could run long term loads greater than 50A.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric Connection book |
It took Bob all of two days to get my order to Michigan...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric Connection book
>
> >
> >Hello. I have been following along with the great information being
> >dispensed on this list. I finally ordered the AeroElectric book and CD
about
> >a month ago and wondered how long it takes to get them in the mail?
> >
> >Dennis~
> >Seattle
> >
>
> How did you order the book? I've searched the primary and
> backup order archives for orders to both B&C and AeroElectric
> Connection. Can't find an order with your name or e-mail
> address attached to it.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
> | discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer(at)mb.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Transponder Noise in Intercom |
When I turn on my transponder (used AT-50) I hear a continuous tone through
the intercom. Around 2 or 3Khz I'd guess. Sounds like a fairly clean
sinusoid, but I haven't scoped it. It begins as soon as the transponder
switch is moved to standby and stays until the unit is switched off. The
level is not high, and may not be noticable with the engine running but it's
certainly annoying on the ground. I am using the AeroElectric single point
ground system for the avionics and all audio runs are shielded. Any ideas on
how I might fix this? Filter the intercom and/or transponder + lead?
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise in Intercom |
>
>
>When I turn on my transponder (used AT-50) I hear a continuous tone through
>the intercom. Around 2 or 3Khz I'd guess. Sounds like a fairly clean
>sinusoid, but I haven't scoped it. It begins as soon as the transponder
>switch is moved to standby and stays until the unit is switched off. The
>level is not high, and may not be noticable with the engine running but it's
>certainly annoying on the ground. I am using the AeroElectric single point
>ground system for the avionics and all audio runs are shielded. Any ideas on
>how I might fix this? Filter the intercom and/or transponder + lead?
Do you have a copy of the 'Connection? You need to check out
chapter 16 and go through some rudimentary isolation checks
to see what mode of propagation is bringing noise outside
your transponder and into your intercom. It could be magnetic
noise coupled between black boxes or adjacent wiring. It could
be conducted noise transferring across the common 14v power
system.
Only after the propagation mode is discovered can you properly
craft a means for breaking that coupling mode.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Sec 1223 Power Supply |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Hi Bob,
I purchased a Samlex SEC 1223 DC power supply as per your recommend a while
back. Just getting around to using it. The Manual says:
"DO NOT CONNECT THE POWER SUPPLY TO THE AC POWER SOURCE WHILE MAKING
CONNECTIONS"
Does this mean that I need to have all connections I wish to power made and
then when all is ready plug the power supply in?
If so it seems an awkward way to have to work.
I would appreciate your comments,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner
Randy Bowers
Moose #130 "The Beast" M-14PF 400HP Aerocet 3500 amphibs Rome, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sec 1223 Power Supply |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I purchased a Samlex SEC 1223 DC power supply as per your recommend a while
>back. Just getting around to using it. The Manual says:
>
>"DO NOT CONNECT THE POWER SUPPLY TO THE AC POWER SOURCE WHILE MAKING
>CONNECTIONS"
>
>Does this mean that I need to have all connections I wish to power made and
>then when all is ready plug the power supply in?
>
>If so it seems an awkward way to have to work.
Agreed. That sounds like boilerplate from some bureaucrat's
notion of warnings and cautions to put on every product
to hold the lawyers at bay . . . I'd ignore it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Starter and Battery contactor diodes |
I have read through everything I can on your web site. It's all been a
great education for me. I thank you very much.
I have one question that I have been unable to answer; What is the rating
or size of the diodes used on the starter and battery contactors?
About any diode you can find 1A or greater, 50V or greater
will do. I prefer the 3A devices sold by Radio Shack and
others because they are mechanically more robust than
the 1A devices . . . easier to use.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
| People are far more willing to pay |
| for being amused than for anything else. |
| -Thomas Edison- |
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>I have a Ball vario model 600 and when I key the mike it goes full
>deflection down. I tried with my handheld near by, does the same thing. A
>problem or just something you live with. Anyway to stop it?
>Thanks in advance,
>R
This is a classic RF interference problem especially
common to instruments not intended for installation
on airplanes intended to carry the usual compliment
of electronics. You'll need to talk to Ball and see
if they have any recommendations. How is this powered?
If you have long wires coming out the back to a
battery in the airplane, you might try powering
up with dry cells located as close as possible to
the rear of the instrument. If this improves the
situation, then perhaps a filter in the power
leads will do it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise in Intercom |
>
>
>When I turn on my transponder (used AT-50) I hear a continuous tone through
>the intercom..............
>Any ideas on
>how I might fix this?
Turn on the engine.? :-)
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise in Intercom |
> When I turn on my transponder (used AT-50) I hear a continuous tone through
> >the intercom..............
> >Any ideas on
> >how I might fix this?
>
Here's what I did: replace aging Narco AT-50 with newer model AT-150, so as
not to have to rewire or replace tray. Ignore advice from others to spend
extra $ on Garmin model with slide-in Narco adapter for lazy types like
myself, because that costs more. Fly with undependable transponder that has
bad reputation for drifting out of frerquency specs for a couple years. Get
small quantity of rainwater in the stack and eventually fry the high voltage
power supply on the circuit board (remember, you opted to stay with vacuum
tube technology in favor of robust, solid state gear that operates at 13.8
volts, to save money.) Have technician make unsuccessful attempt to repair
burnt components over a period of 6 months, to save still more money (versus
factory service).
Final step: come to senses, shell out the $1200 to John Stark for the Garmin
GTX-320A and fly happy again :-)
This may not fix your problem, since my adventure never started out with a
noise problem, but I'll bet you end up somewhere close to where I did :-)
Narco is junk. Use it for a door stop or paperweight.
Post script: I am happy to report, in case anyone is interested, that my
experiment with concealing a quarter-wave whip antenna for the transponder
inside the aft compartment of the new 2-pc RV main gear wheelpant (attached
to a horizontal aluminum ground plane behind the aft bulkhead of the
wheelpant, fed by coax run inside the gear leg fairing) is a success. The
installation performs well, with no obvious shielding from the nearby wheel
and axle, and looks to be weathertight and drag-free. The 14 foot coax run
is more than the 8.8 feet of RG-400 allowed in the installation manual, but
the attenuation does not seem to make ATC unhappy. The ground plane is
mounted in the widest part of the aft wheelpant compartment, and is cut to
fit the contours snugly, in a trapezoidal shape. Dimensions are nearly a
quarter wave from the radiating element in all directions. The antenna is
hung vertically downward from the middle of the ground plane, as if on the
belly of the plane.
Regards,
-Bill B
RV-6A - gradually removing unstreamlined objects from the exterior airframe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <wsweet(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise in Intercom |
I agree with the Narco junk assessment. The Narco transponder in my
MustangII last exactly 11 months after putting in service, but had over 13
months since purchase. Narco won't even respond to my letters and phone
calls. Cost $700 to replace magnetron tube (7 years ago). Replaced with a
King a year later, and it's been transponding without a problem since.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: <SportAV8R(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder Noise in Intercom
>
>
> > When I turn on my transponder (used AT-50) I hear a continuous tone
through
> > >the intercom..............
> > >Any ideas on
> > >how I might fix this?
> >
>
> Here's what I did: replace aging Narco AT-50 with newer model AT-150, so
as
> not to have to rewire or replace tray. Ignore advice from others to spend
> extra $ on Garmin model with slide-in Narco adapter for lazy types like
> myself, because that costs more. Fly with undependable transponder that
has
> bad reputation for drifting out of frerquency specs for a couple years.
Get
> small quantity of rainwater in the stack and eventually fry the high
voltage
> power supply on the circuit board (remember, you opted to stay with vacuum
> tube technology in favor of robust, solid state gear that operates at 13.8
> volts, to save money.) Have technician make unsuccessful attempt to
repair
> burnt components over a period of 6 months, to save still more money
(versus
> factory service).
>
> Final step: come to senses, shell out the $1200 to John Stark for the
Garmin
> GTX-320A and fly happy again :-)
>
> This may not fix your problem, since my adventure never started out with a
> noise problem, but I'll bet you end up somewhere close to where I did :-)
> Narco is junk. Use it for a door stop or paperweight.
>
> Post script: I am happy to report, in case anyone is interested, that my
> experiment with concealing a quarter-wave whip antenna for the transponder
> inside the aft compartment of the new 2-pc RV main gear wheelpant
(attached
> to a horizontal aluminum ground plane behind the aft bulkhead of the
> wheelpant, fed by coax run inside the gear leg fairing) is a success. The
> installation performs well, with no obvious shielding from the nearby
wheel
> and axle, and looks to be weathertight and drag-free. The 14 foot coax
run
> is more than the 8.8 feet of RG-400 allowed in the installation manual,
but
> the attenuation does not seem to make ATC unhappy. The ground plane is
> mounted in the widest part of the aft wheelpant compartment, and is cut to
> fit the contours snugly, in a trapezoidal shape. Dimensions are nearly a
> quarter wave from the radiating element in all directions. The antenna is
> hung vertically downward from the middle of the ground plane, as if on the
> belly of the plane.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Bill B
> RV-6A - gradually removing unstreamlined objects from the exterior
airframe
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise in Intercom |
>Narco is junk. Use it for a door stop or paperweight.
Those Narco transponders are - antiques! I have actually done pretty
well with Narco radios in the past. They are less money up front. My Deb
has all Narco digital stuff and has not been serviced in ten years! I
especially like the VOR indicators for their parallel
movements. Currently, the Mk12 digital sometimes doesn't go to the
selected frequency in one area and Narco say this is a $200 fix. You have
to send it in but, on the other hand, you don't have a guy in there working
on it with a hammer. Promptly on buying my Deb ( did I mention that it is
for sale?) I bought a new Narco txp. I complained that it seemed to move
in the panel. Several years later I looked and saw that they had
"stabilized" it by stuffing a hunk of vacuum hose between it and the
airframe! Not so much incompetence as dishonesty. I think they had the
duty sweeper do the work. I did see him installing on another
aircraft. Yes, a certified avionics shop.
My RV has only an Icom radio, a Skyforce GPS and a Garmin 327(?)
transponder which is great. I consider the txp the most important box in
the panel. With only a GPS, you can't communicate. With only a comm, ATC
can't help locate you and guide you to safety. Forget DF steers.
I wouldn't buy a King txp with Garmin around.
Way back, I flew a Bonanza with two old MK12 Narcos - 'digital' then meant
'fingers'. We needed three, however, because both radios failed on long
flights. I haven't had a comm failure since.
Go ahead and archive this as it will only cost about a tenth of a cent.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Low Voltage indicator light/Relay |
List,
Theis question is from Bellanca Vking group. the Vikings have a low voltage
indicator annunciator light(push to test, dimming type. they are somehow
driven by a relay and a fused wire to the alternator. Apparently the relay
is NLA and I was wondering if there was an easy way to retrofit a similar
but different system?
I believe it is a 6v relay but I'm not sure.
Here is the post>>
Just got off the phone with Duane at Millers. The relay (255KM5D) is no
longer available anywhere. He tells me that what they do is take out the
1 amp fuse by the alternator and disable the red warning light system.
There is no other way to fix the problem. So if that is the only
fix..... this is the cheapest repair that I have ever had.
>>
Thanks, Dave Leonard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage indicator light/Relay |
My question is... Why is a 6 volt relay in a 12 volt system? Wouldn't that
almost insure failure by burning?
Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club
Newsletter Editor & EAA TC
www.bellanca-championclub.com
We support Aeroncas
----- Original Message -----
From: "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage indicator light/Relay
List,
Theis question is from Bellanca Vking group. the Vikings have a low voltage
indicator annunciator light(push to test, dimming type. they are somehow
driven by a relay and a fused wire to the alternator. Apparently the relay
is NLA and I was wondering if there was an easy way to retrofit a similar
but different system?
I believe it is a 6v relay but I'm not sure.
Here is the post>>
Just got off the phone with Duane at Millers. The relay (255KM5D) is no
longer available anywhere. He tells me that what they do is take out the
1 amp fuse by the alternator and disable the red warning light system.
There is no other way to fix the problem. So if that is the only
fix..... this is the cheapest repair that I have ever had.
>>
Thanks, Dave Leonard
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
In the bad old days, deH Vampires (Canada's first jet fighter -
and wooden at that) were 'equipped' with NARCO homers (ADFs) called
"Bird-dog".
Picture a 20-year-old in his 4th jet trip (no 2seat trainers
then), snaking through 30,000 feet of cloud only to pop out on top with not
a single buddy in sight. No transponder, and wood. Defense radar couldn't
'paint'. Stooged about for 30 minutes then began panicking about terra
firma. Reliable old 'BirdDog' couldn't read my home beacon, so dialled up a
50,000W broadcast station about 15 miles from base. Made up a descent
diagram from scratch and told GCA I'd pass through their beam in 5 minutes.
They caught me, lost me, caught me again and vectored me to final GCA in 200
feet of blizzard. Ran out of fuel on the runway.
My left kneecap danced on my leg for an hour.
Good old NARCO.
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Duckett <perfeng(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nd part number to make model chart |
Barry,
ND is to Japan what AC-Delco is to the U.S. They are the primary
electrical supplier for O.E.Ms in Japan, Korea, China and starting to be
primary in some U.S. productions (due to Corperate agreements and
buy-outs). Anyway, there is cross-overs, of a sort, with the primary
O.E.M. users part numbers to ND and back but, it generally isn'y
availible to the public per say.
The internal parts are pretty much the same for each "Class" of part
but, like with AC-Delco (G.M.) there are 38 alternators listed just for
Chevrolet in 1998 for example (some 56 for the entire G.M. production).
Some will interchange (just an extra bolt hole or mounting tab), while
others have a completely different case mounting.
Probably the easiest to do is find a primary user (Mazda, Toyota, etc.)
that uses the case class and output size that your looking for and just
stay with that.
I went with a ND alt. for a Geo Metro with A/C. 50 Amps, internally
regulated, installed B&C O/V protection and crowbarred it. Yea, I know,
no vibrator box hanging on the firewall but, it works for hundreds of
thousands of vehicles without O/V protection.
Anyway, I would go with G.M (Geo) or Toyota applications. Geo because
some of the ND numbers cross to AC-D and Toyota because They adopt most
of NDs numbers directly.
You might try contacting some of the automotive elctrical rebuilder
supply W.D.s and see if they have what your looking for as far as a true
crossover.
Next best thing that I've found is Echlin's Alternator and Starter
User's Guide (NAPA). It has Year, Make, Model, Case Class, Output, and
some connection pictures.
Hope this helps...
Jim Duckett, Packing for OSH
barry pote wrote:
>
>It would be nice to have an ND (Nippondenso) alternator part number to
>year make model chart and vice versa.
>
>I have worked the net pretty hard and have not found one.
>
>Has anyone found a conversion chart like that?
>
>It would be handy in many ways.
>
>Barry Pote RV9a chevy powered, finish kit
>
>
============================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage indicator light/Relay |
>
>My question is... Why is a 6 volt relay in a 12 volt system? Wouldn't that
>almost insure failure by burning?
I suspect this relay runs from the center-tap of a y-connected
stator winding. The output voltage from the center tap is about
1/2 the system voltage. This feature of some alternators (called
an "aux terminal") has been used on many airplanes of years
past to drive a low-voltage sensor module or relay to monitor
instances where this output goes to zero (meaning alternator is
turn off or failed).
This is equal to the idiot light system used on many cars
of era as well.
>List,
>
>Theis question is from Bellanca Vking group. the Vikings have a low voltage
>indicator annunciator light(push to test, dimming type. they are somehow
>driven by a relay and a fused wire to the alternator. Apparently the relay
>is NLA and I was wondering if there was an easy way to retrofit a similar
>but different system?
>
>I believe it is a 6v relay but I'm not sure.
>
>Here is the post>>
>Just got off the phone with Duane at Millers. The relay (255KM5D) is no
>longer available anywhere. He tells me that what they do is take out the
>1 amp fuse by the alternator and disable the red warning light system.
>There is no other way to fix the problem. So if that is the only
>fix..... this is the cheapest repair that I have ever had.
Dave. Depending on how sanitary you want to be with respect
to regulations, you can substitute about any 6v relay for this
device . . . problem is that since 6v DC vehicle systems are
so old, DC relays of this rating are increasingly hard to
come by. The electronics world uses some 5v relays that might
be adaptable but these are designed to solder to etched circuit
boards and difficult to adapt to your application.
If it were MY airplane, I'd build a low-voltage monitor
set to trip at 13.0 volts like the one described by
schematic http://209.134.106.21/articles/lvwarn/9021-610.pdf
If you'd like to drive the same lamp fixture, it would
take an output buffer transistor to boost the LED output
drive of this circuit sufficiently to drive the lamp in your
stock fixture. This would preserve the look of the panel
and provide a much more useful indication.
> >>
>
>Thanks, Dave Leonard
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
Glad it worked out, and good thinking for a 20 year old...
You must have been pushing on those rudder pedals pretty hard, Ferg...
Nervous, eh wot...
Cheers ... Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: NARCO
>
> Cheers,
> In the bad old days, deH Vampires (Canada's first jet
fighter -
> and wooden at that) were 'equipped' with NARCO homers (ADFs) called
> "Bird-dog".
> Picture a 20-year-old in his 4th jet trip (no 2seat trainers
> then), snaking through 30,000 feet of cloud only to pop out on top with
not
> a single buddy in sight. No transponder, and wood. Defense radar couldn't
> 'paint'. Stooged about for 30 minutes then began panicking about terra
> firma. Reliable old 'BirdDog' couldn't read my home beacon, so dialled up
a
> 50,000W broadcast station about 15 miles from base. Made up a descent
> diagram from scratch and told GCA I'd pass through their beam in 5
minutes.
> They caught me, lost me, caught me again and vectored me to final GCA in
200
> feet of blizzard. Ran out of fuel on the runway.
> My left kneecap danced on my leg for an hour.
> Good old NARCO.
> Ferg
> Europa A064
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glong2" <glong2(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Pilot Priority Relay Assembly |
Bob:
I am beginning the electrical wiring for my plane. Reviewing your wiring
diagrams, I find most of them will serve my purpose very well.
On the yaw and pitch trim diagrams, there is a pilot priority relay assy. Is
there an assembly I can purchase from someone or do I have to custom build
this unit? A purchased assembly would be a whole lot easier than laying out
a PC board and doing the assembly!
Thanks for your help,
Eugene Long
Lancair Super ES
glong2(at)netzero.net
-------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pilot Priority Relay Assembly |
Bob -
I am looking at the same sheets from your Lancair IV wire book. I looks like one
relay can suffice for both trim axes. Correct?
I would also prefer to have roll and pitch on the coolie switch rather than yaw
and pitch. Any comments about how to change the sheets to reflect this?
Many Thanks,
John Schroeder
glong2 wrote:
>
> Bob:
>
> On the yaw and pitch trim diagrams, there is a pilot priority relay assy. Is
> there an assembly I can purchase from someone or do I have to custom build
> this unit? A purchased assembly would be a whole lot easier than laying out
> a PC board and doing the assembly!
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Eugene Long
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
| Subject: | Pilot Priority Relay Assembly |
I believe that Matt Dralle's company Matronics (yes, the guy that hosts this
mailing list for us for FREE) has such a product.
See if http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm is close enough for you:
it apparently uses a "first come/first served" model rather than pilot
priority.
-Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of glong2
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 4:02 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pilot Priority Relay Assembly
>
>
> Bob:
>
> I am beginning the electrical wiring for my plane. Reviewing your wiring
> diagrams, I find most of them will serve my purpose very well.
>
> On the yaw and pitch trim diagrams, there is a pilot priority
> relay assy. Is
> there an assembly I can purchase from someone or do I have to custom build
> this unit? A purchased assembly would be a whole lot easier than
> laying out
> a PC board and doing the assembly!
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Eugene Long
> Lancair Super ES
> glong2(at)netzero.net
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Introducing NetZero Long Distance
> Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
> Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith Hughes" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
Does anyone have a *simple* schematic for a tone generator? I am putting EI
fuel gages (both quantity and fuel flow). EI has one wire that supplies a
ground when one of the LED's light to alert you of an action, whether it be
a warning or simply a timer. I was thinking about hooking that wire to a
tone generator and using it as a "master caution". I know they have such a
thing, as EI sells them, but they are a little pricey, considering it's an
"extra". Anyway, I figured that it can't be too tough of a circuit to
build.
Thanks,
Keith Hughes
RV-6, Denver
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tone generator |
Keith Hughes wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone have a *simple* schematic for a tone generator?
*** Piece O'cake.
Do a google search for "LM555" and simple but robust tone oscillators
will be presented to you.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
You can go to Radio Shack and buy a buzzer or beeper that has the circuitry
built in. Those things just have two wires: power and ground. Apply power,
and beeps come out. Maybe a few more bucks than rolling your own, but a
heckuva lot easier.
I went to www.radioshack.com and did a search on "buzzer" and came up with
30 hits, many of 'em work on 12VDC. I clicked on one at random and it was
$5. (cat #273-066)
-Matt
> Does anyone have a *simple* schematic for a tone generator? I am
> putting EI
> fuel gages (both quantity and fuel flow). EI has one wire that supplies a
> ground when one of the LED's light to alert you of an action,
> whether it be
> a warning or simply a timer. I was thinking about hooking that wire to a
> tone generator and using it as a "master caution". I know they
> have such a
> thing, as EI sells them, but they are a little pricey, considering it's an
> "extra". Anyway, I figured that it can't be too tough of a circuit to
> build.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
> > Does anyone have a *simple* schematic for a tone generator? I am
> > putting EI fuel gages (both quantity and fuel flow).
Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less
than $300. Any recommendations?
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tom sargent <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tone generator capacitance sender |
John Slade wrote:
>
>
> > > Does anyone have a *simple* schematic for a tone generator? I am
> > > putting EI fuel gages (both quantity and fuel flow).
> Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less
> than $300. Any recommendations?
> John Slade
John:
Actually, they're not too hard to build yourself. I did some
experiments and plan to build one. A flat plat capacitor about the size
of your hand hooked into a NE555 oscillator circuit varies the frequency
quite a bit. The capacitance is from a few hundred PF to 600 or so. Jim
Weir wrote an article about a similar design about 3 years ago in kit
planes.
--
Tom Sargent.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tone generator |
EI is Electronics International. They are located in Oregon and have a website:
http://www.buy-ei.com/
John
> Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less
> than $300. Any recommendations?
> John Slade
>
> _
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RG Battery failure (but not in airplane) |
I found yesterday following a power failure at home
that my RF 12V 7A alarm system battery was dead. Not
only dead, but also damaged. See picture:
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby/batterie.jpg
That battery was about 7 or 8 years old. Alarm system
mfg mandates battery change after 5 year. I believe
that there is a constant floating charge applied to
the battery in this application, but I did not know
that such failure could happen.
The nice thing is that it did not leak at all.
Any comments?
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://health.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Solid facts about "imported" electric horizons ? |
Hi, all
Anyone around here has feedback from "imported" electric horizons like those
from AS ?
Of course I know the general opinion, you get what you pay for, etc.
But the only feedback I can remember from the last time this subject was
discussed here is a conversation about a failed RC Allen gyro, and their
strange sense of warranty.
Has anyone here bought an imported electric gyro, and is satisfied (or
dissatisfied) with it ?
Or does someone know of someone who did ?
Electric horizons are so expensive I'd like to thoroughly ponder the pros
and cons, and get solid information about those instruments before buying.
Our project is primarily for VFR.
Any facts or comments welcome,
Thanks
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RG Battery failure (but not in airplane) |
Michel,
I have worked with this type of battery for the last 15 or more years. They
have been used in the application of UPS (uninterruptible power supply) back
up batteries, computer system stand by batteries, fire alarm system stand by
batteries and security alarm system stand by batteries. The failure and
damage that your photo shows seems to be typical of what I have found over
the years.
I have used a life expectancy of 3 to 5 years as a rule of thumb to keep them
reliable. In aviation, as Bob suggests, maybe it should be more like 1 or 2
years. I have found 3 common failure modes in the work I have done with
them. 1. They will not recover from a deep discharge. After deep discharge,
they will over heat, swell, and split open (as your photo shows) during
attempt to recharge. 2. A good, fully charged unit will over heat and fail
as above if anything more than a true "float" voltage is applied. 3. If a
new or fully charged unit is not float charged during storage, it will
sulfate and go bad in less than a year just sitting on the shelf.
Too finicky for our use? They will not leak corrosive electrolyte on our
pretty birds. This is the single best feature in my book. I think they are
great as long as we take care not to overcharge them, deep discharge them or
let them sit too long in storage. I won't be buying my battery until I am
ready to crank the engine for the first time.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback, (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Mireley <glcompair(at)mireley.tcimet.net> |
| Subject: | electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
> Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less
> than $300. Any recommendations?
> John Slade
http://www.recreationalmobility.com/Product/Airframe_Accessories/Instruments/Falcon/fuel_gauges.asp
Recreational Mobility, 12 or 24 inch bendable senders $70
I've not used these. If you decide to use them, please
let me know how they work out.
--
John Mireley
Great Lakes Comp Air
5020 U.S. 20 West
Angola, IN 46703
FAX/Voice Mail - 5173323127
Internet - http://198.109.164.162/glcompair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
doesn't Spruce or Wicks have Westach capacitance senders and gauges for
under $300? last I looked it was about $100/sender and less for the dual
gauge. I heard that they work fine.
Gary K.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mireley" <glcompair(at)mireley.tcimet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders
>
>
> > Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less
> > than $300. Any recommendations?
> > John Slade
>
>
http://www.recreationalmobility.com/Product/Airframe_Accessories/Instruments
/Falcon/fuel_gauges.asp
>
>
> Recreational Mobility, 12 or 24 inch bendable senders $70
> I've not used these. If you decide to use them, please
> let me know how they work out.
>
>
> --
> John Mireley
> Great Lakes Comp Air
> 5020 U.S. 20 West
> Angola, IN 46703
> FAX/Voice Mail - 5173323127
> Internet - http://198.109.164.162/glcompair
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solid facts about "imported" electric |
horizons ?
| From: | Bob & Karen Risch <bkrisch(at)ouraynet.com> |
FWIW:
I originally ordered one of the import AIs from AS thinking that a grand
should get you something fairly decent. It did not work out of the box and
some seven months and $700 later I finally got the RC Allen unit as a
replacement. About seven hours on it so far and it is doing fine.
Bob
--
> From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 00:47:17 +0200
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid facts about "imported" electric horizons ?
>
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Hi, all
>
> Anyone around here has feedback from "imported" electric horizons like those
> from AS ?
> Of course I know the general opinion, you get what you pay for, etc.
> But the only feedback I can remember from the last time this subject was
> discussed here is a conversation about a failed RC Allen gyro, and their
> strange sense of warranty.
> Has anyone here bought an imported electric gyro, and is satisfied (or
> dissatisfied) with it ?
> Or does someone know of someone who did ?
> Electric horizons are so expensive I'd like to thoroughly ponder the pros
> and cons, and get solid information about those instruments before buying.
> Our project is primarily for VFR.
>
> Any facts or comments welcome,
>
> Thanks
> Gilles
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Feed the ignition bus from both batts simultaneously? |
| From: | Grant Corriveau <grantC(at)total.net> |
Gday..
I didn't find this specifically in the archives - so here goes:
I feed my dual-channel electronic ignition box, and dual coils, and main
fuel pumps from the 'key' bus. This bus MUST be powered to keep the engine
running. So, of course I want this bus to be as reliable as possible.
1/ Can I feed it directly from both of my two batteries (RGB - ala
Aeroelectric connection) with a diode assembly in each feed to isolate the
batteries from one another?
2/ Would these feeds be good candidates for fuselinks instead of fuses/cbs
to ensure high reliability?
Thanks,
--
Grant Corriveau
Montreal
Zodiac 601hds/CAM100
C-GHTF
www.theWingStayedON.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solid facts about "imported" electric horizons |
?
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Bob & Karen Risch"
:
Envoy : lundi 22 juillet 2002 19:25
Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Solid facts about "imported" electric
horizons ?
>
> FWIW:
> I originally ordered one of the import AIs from AS thinking that a
grand
> should get you something fairly decent. It did not work out of the box and
> some seven months and $700 later I finally got the RC Allen unit as a
> replacement. About seven hours on it so far and it is doing fine.
>
> Bob
> --
>
>
> > From: "gilles.thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> > Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 00:47:17 +0200
> > To:
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solid facts about "imported" electric
horizons ?
Bob,
Thanks for the input.
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
The current probes have 0-5V DC output so many different displays are
possible.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders
>
> doesn't Spruce or Wicks have Westach capacitance senders and gauges for
> under $300? last I looked it was about $100/sender and less for the dual
> gauge. I heard that they work fine.
>
> Gary K.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Mireley" <glcompair(at)mireley.tcimet.net>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost
less
> > > than $300. Any recommendations?
> > > John Slade
> >
> >
>
http://www.recreationalmobility.com/Product/Airframe_Accessories/Instruments
> /Falcon/fuel_gauges.asp
> >
> >
> > Recreational Mobility, 12 or 24 inch bendable senders $70
> > I've not used these. If you decide to use them, please
> > let me know how they work out.
> >
> >
> > --
> > John Mireley
> > Great Lakes Comp Air
> > 5020 U.S. 20 West
> > Angola, IN 46703
> > FAX/Voice Mail - 5173323127
> > Internet - http://198.109.164.162/glcompair
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
In a message dated 7/22/2002 6:09:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
glcompair(at)mireley.tcimet.net writes:
> Recreational Mobility, 12 or 24 inch bendable senders $70
> I've not used these. If you decide to use them, please
> let me know how they work out.
>
Think these are the same units sold by Westach Instruments; may even be
manufactured by them. Considered using them myself, but not yet, so would be
interested in any experience with these as well.
doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RG Battery failure (but not in airplane) |
>
>I found yesterday following a power failure at home
>that my RF 12V 7A alarm system battery was dead. Not
>only dead, but also damaged. See picture:
>
>http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby/batterie.jpg
>
>That battery was about 7 or 8 years old. Alarm system
>mfg mandates battery change after 5 year. I believe
>that there is a constant floating charge applied to
>the battery in this application, but I did not know
>that such failure could happen.
>
>The nice thing is that it did not leak at all.
After you replace the battery, measure voltage at
the battery terminals while the "charger" is on
and after several days.
The closest I ever came to hurting someone really
bad happened about 25 years ago. I designed a refrigeration
failure alarm system for those semi-portable, outdoor
cooler/freezer units you see behind Burger King, etc.
This thing was housed in a super heavy duty, sealed
enclosure to take the worst any weather could inflict.
A bell on the outside and a flashing red light on top
would annunciate power and/or refrigeration failure.
Backup battery power was one of the first prismatic
RG batteries to show up on the market.
One night, a local user of the product went out to
his cooler and hit the press-to-test switch. A few
minutes later, he called the service department to
complain that his alarm system "disappeared" . . .
The following morning, the techs showed up in my
office with the run-away alarm box. It had puffed up
like a blow fish (NEMA-4 enclosure held up very nicely)
and was kind of beat up. Seems the battery charger failed
(insufficient heat sinking) and put the super-
push of electrons into the battery. It out-gassed
with what must have been pretty much ideal ratio
of H2 to O2.
When the guy hit the switch, the contents ignited
and the rocket-thrust of gasses out the conduit
fitting on the back pulled the lag screws out of
the cooler frame and the whole box launched across the
parking lot.
Had the box been mounted at head-level or lower,
there would have been great risk to anyone
standing in front of the enclosure. As
it was, the surprised burger-flipper heard a
loud whoosh and the box simply disappeared.
A re-design of the charger -AND- appropriate
ventilation holes precluded a future event.
I've oft marveled at my lucky stars since.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Feed the ignition bus from both batts simultaneously? |
>
>Gday..
>
>I didn't find this specifically in the archives - so here goes:
>
>I feed my dual-channel electronic ignition box, and dual coils, and main
>fuel pumps from the 'key' bus. This bus MUST be powered to keep the engine
>running. So, of course I want this bus to be as reliable as possible.
>
>1/ Can I feed it directly from both of my two batteries (RGB - ala
>Aeroelectric connection) with a diode assembly in each feed to isolate the
>batteries from one another?
If you have two batteries, then I'd recommend two battery busses.
Distribute half your ignition and fuel pumps between the two
busses. Use individual toggle switches to control each device. A 6-slot
fuse-block on each battery generally gives you enough power
sources for engine and other misc devices that want either
continuous or most reliability power sources.
Each battery needs it's own "contactor" a-la Figure Z-30.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Banks" <b2banks(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RG Battery Standard charging |
Bob,
Using your wiring methods Is there really any need to worry about
overcharging these Batteries (ie Recumbent Gas) Thanks Bruce Banks in Las
Vegas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: L40 Alternator Cooling Test |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>I'd be glad to run a cooling test on the alternator.
>
>HOWEVER, I'm about 4 months away from flying.
>
>I have made provisions to have a spare temperature port in my Grand Rapids
>Engine Information System.
>
>I'll be able to attach the temperature sensor most anywhere in the engine
>compartment.
>
>I'll get in contact with you after my first flight.
Sounds like a plan. What is the temperature sensor
technology? Thermocouple? What Kind?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Londt" <londt(at)cyberserv.co.za> |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders
:
: In a message dated 7/22/2002
: glcompair(at)mireley.tcimet.net writes:
: Think these are the same units sold by Westach Instruments; may even be
: manufactured by them. Considered using them myself, but not yet, so would
be
: interested in any experience with these as well.
: doug
Have used a Westach, unit purchased from ACS, for 3 yrs. No problems.
Londt
=======================================================================
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
:
:
:
:
:
:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge |
senders
At 05:06 AM 7/22/2002John Mireley sez:
> > Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less
> > than $300. Any recommendations?
> > John Slade
>
>
><http://www.recreationalmobility.com/Product/Airframe_Accessories/Instruments/Falcon/fuel_gauges.asp>
>
>
>Recreational Mobility, 12 or 24 inch bendable senders $70
>I've not used these. If you decide to use them, please
>let me know how they work out.
Floats type senders came with my kit. Looks like something from JC Whitney.
The problem is that the floats can only move about 4 total inches of travel
and they are an inch and a half in diameter so the touch the top before
they could float to full and when all the way against the bottom of the
leaning tank it is still a third full. So I would like to use the
capacitive type senders referenced above too.
I'd have to use the longer ones - 24". Is there any problem with them
rattling in a near empty tank?
Can I use my existing gauges?
Can this setup be calibrated to match the actual fuel amount given that
there is not a linear relationship between depth and amount of fuel?
Any drawbacks to their use? Like fire hazard, calibration difficulty?
Anybody out there using them?
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(425)641-1773 fax |
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
Paul -
Check out Westach at: http://www.frostalarm.com/cat/p35.html
It will answer some of these questions - see 800 number at page bottom.
Bill Mills
RANS Courier in progress
(sight tube fuel quantity indicating system with Horizon fuel flow meter)
SF bay area, Calif.
>
>---------snip-------------
>Floats type senders came with my kit. Looks like something from JC Whitney.
>The problem is that the floats can only move about 4 total inches of travel
>and they are an inch and a half in diameter so the touch the top before
>they could float to full and when all the way against the bottom of the
>leaning tank it is still a third full. So I would like to use the
>capacitive type senders referenced above too.
>
>I'd have to use the longer ones - 24". Is there any problem with them
>rattling in a near empty tank?
>
>Can I use my existing gauges?
>
>Can this setup be calibrated to match the actual fuel amount given that
>there is not a linear relationship between depth and amount of fuel?
>
>Any drawbacks to their use? Like fire hazard, calibration difficulty?
>Anybody out there using them?
>
>
>Paul Franz
>
>PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
>(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
>(425)641-1773 fax |
> <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | electronic capacitance fuel gauge senders |
> Check out Westach at: http://www.frostalarm.com/cat/p35.html
> It will answer some of these questions - see 800 number at page bottom.
Interesting - this is the one that Blue Mountain (EFIS-1) links to from
their web page.
I guess that clinches it.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG Battery Standard charging |
>
>Bob,
>
>Using your wiring methods Is there really any need to worry about
>overcharging these Batteries (ie Recumbent Gas) Thanks Bruce Banks in Las
>Vegas
It's not hard to degrade a battery's performance by either
over or under charging. This is true irrespective of the
battery technology. All other things being equal, RG
batteries tend to be more robust with respect to slight
overcharge (15.0 volts or so) as it affects life
and with respect to severe overcharge as it affects
hazardous behavior (the critters go "psssst" and it's all over).
RG batteries have fewer "worries" in that they are
less likely to become an explosion hazard
if the battery box is ventilated or simply replaced with
an open tray. They are also incapable of leaking nasty
stuff that eats up your airplane.
Yes, you can smoke an RG battery or any other battery
by overcharging it. It's not difficult to avoid
overcharge damage and if it does happen, likelihood
of severe consequences is nil.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <wsweet(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Aircraft chargers |
Are chargers for aircraft of higher voltage than the standard auto
chargers?? Seems I recall reading about this sometime ago.
Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Wire size confusion |
Bob,
I'm wiring my position lights and nav lights.
Each bulb has a resistance of 10 ohms, so it'll draw 1.4 amps at 12v.
The wires for both left and right nav & position will go back to the same
switch and fuse, so I have a total of 5.6 amps draw when everything is on.
If I understand "the book" correctly, I need to supply each item on the same
circuit with the same size wire, so I need 20AWG wire to each item. Am I on
the right track?
Regards,
John Slade
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> William Mills
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:40 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electronic capacitance fuel gauge
> senders
>
>
>
>
> Paul -
>
> Check out Westach at: http://www.frostalarm.com/cat/p35.html
> It will answer some of these questions - see 800 number at page bottom.
>
> Bill Mills
> RANS Courier in progress
> (sight tube fuel quantity indicating system with Horizon fuel flow meter)
> SF bay area, Calif.
>
> >
> >---------snip-------------
> >Floats type senders came with my kit. Looks like something from
> JC Whitney.
> >The problem is that the floats can only move about 4 total
> inches of travel
> >and they are an inch and a half in diameter so the touch the top before
> >they could float to full and when all the way against the bottom of the
> >leaning tank it is still a third full. So I would like to use the
> >capacitive type senders referenced above too.
> >
> >I'd have to use the longer ones - 24". Is there any problem with them
> >rattling in a near empty tank?
> >
> >Can I use my existing gauges?
> >
> >Can this setup be calibrated to match the actual fuel amount given that
> >there is not a linear relationship between depth and amount of fuel?
> >
> >Any drawbacks to their use? Like fire hazard, calibration difficulty?
> >Anybody out there using them?
> >
> >
> >Paul Franz
> >
> >PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
> >(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
> >(425)641-1773 fax |
> > <http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire size confusion |
>
>Bob,
>I'm wiring my position lights and nav lights.
>Each bulb has a resistance of 10 ohms, so it'll draw 1.4 amps at 12v.
>The wires for both left and right nav & position will go back to the same
>switch and fuse, so I have a total of 5.6 amps draw when everything is on.
>If I understand "the book" correctly, I need to supply each item on the same
>circuit with the same size wire, so I need 20AWG wire to each item. Am I on
>the right track?
Yes. Nav lights I've worked with in past draw 2 amps each
on 14v system for a total of 6A. This means that the entire
system has to be wired such that the wiring attached to a
7A fuse or breaker is not at risk. This translates to 20AWG
wire or larger.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft chargers |
>
>Are chargers for aircraft of higher voltage than the standard auto
>chargers?? Seems I recall reading about this sometime ago.
>Wayne
Can't imagine why.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Heads-up on Blue Mountain |
Recently did a factory seminar for our friends at Lancair
out in Redmond, OR. They've been trying to work with the
folks at Blue Mountain Avionics . . .
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/
As of the date of my trip to Lancair (July 15), the
folks at Lancair had yet to see a set of working hardware.
They'd unsucessfully tried to install several versions
of hardware.
Just a heads up for folks on the list. I sincerely wish
Blue Mountain well in their efforts but be advised that
it's a good idea to talk to several satisfied customers
of a product before you plunk down kilobucks.
If I hear anything from Lancair, I'll post it here.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft chargers |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Are chargers for aircraft of higher voltage than the standard auto
> >chargers?? Seems I recall reading about this sometime ago.
> >Wayne
>
> Can't imagine why.
>
*** 28V Cessnas?
Also, this reminds me of a really interesting article I found on the
Internet - nothing to do with airplanes, everything to do with
charging voltage of batteries:
http://www.landiss.com/battery.htm
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heads-up on Blue Mountain |
>Bob:
I talked to a major supplier of custom panels at Arlington who has
had a similar experience to Lancair's.
Hope they get it working, I'd like to use it.
>Just a heads up for folks on the list. I sincerely wish Blue
>Mountain well in their efforts but be advised that it's a good idea
>to talk to several satisfied customers of a product before you plunk
>down kilobucks.
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire size confusion |
> >Bob,
> >I'm wiring my position lights and nav lights.
> >Each bulb has a resistance of 10 ohms, so it'll draw 1.4 amps at 12v.
> >The wires for both left and right nav & position will go back to the same
> >switch and fuse, so I have a total of 5.6 amps draw when
> everything is on.
> >If I understand "the book" correctly, I need to supply each item
> on the same
> >circuit with the same size wire, so I need 20AWG wire to each
> item. Am I on
> >the right track?
>
>
> Yes. Nav lights I've worked with in past draw 2 amps each
> on 14v system for a total of 6A. This means that the entire
> system has to be wired such that the wiring attached to a
> 7A fuse or breaker is not at risk. This translates to 20AWG
> wire or larger.
>
> Bob . . .
OK, thanks. One follow-on question if I may....
I can't see any reason why I'd want nav lights off and position lights on,
or vice versa, so can I splice these wires up at the fitting and just run
one feed, or is that a no-no?
John Slade, Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary K" <flyink(at)efortress.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Heads-up on Blue Mountain |
There are two sides to every story, and it's interesting to read the other
side as well. This is all available on the Blue Mountain website.
Sometimes it's hard to figure out which side is telling the truth, but I
personnally will be very cautious when dealing with Lancair from now on (ya,
right - like I'm shopping for a IVP). But if half of what Greg said about
Lancair is true, then when I do hit the lottery I'll skip right over them
and get a Maverick jet or something else instead ;<}.
I have an EFIS/Lite mounted in my panel ready to go. Not flying yet, but
I'm impressed with what I got and what I paid for it. If there are some
bugs, I'm confident they will be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.
Bad press on the internet spreads fast and can be pretty ruthless.
Bob's comments were very diplomatic as usual and simply cautionary verses
derogatory (and I agree, everyone should do their homework), but I just had
to add a comment in support of BMA because I know they are working hard to
get an affordable state-of-the-art instrument out to other homebuilders. I
was waiting for the new MicroAir stuff and the Dynon and gave up on both
because they were making delivery promises they couldn't keep, but I'm sure
they will also work as advertised after initial development and delivery
problems. I guess that's just what it's like to be the first customers in
the experimental market.
Happy building and safe flying, Gary K.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <wsweet(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft chargers |
Maybe it was in connection with aircraft voltage regulators vice auto
regulators of 12 years ago. That was the time I was installing my electrics
in my MustangII. Seems from the article in the link below, auto batteries
are using more advanced technology then a decade or more ago so the standard
chargers have the same task as aircraft. Anyway thanks for the info. BTW, I
have used Concord batteries and the usual aircraft starter and alternator
with nothing but the usual failures (two Concord lead-acid batteries in 3
years). Since talking to Sean Tucker circa 1994, I have gone to B&C EE
battery, starter, regulator and alternator. The first 30 AH B&C was still
going strong after 8 years and 500 hours. I felt that battery has served
well and installed a new one, although it was still spinning my O-360
easily. Good stuff that B ask Sean Tucker. I remember when he could
hardly get his 400 HP + Lycoming spinning at all.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: <jerry(at)tr2.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aircraft chargers
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Are chargers for aircraft of higher voltage than the standard auto
> > >chargers?? Seems I recall reading about this sometime ago.
> > >Wayne
> >
> > Can't imagine why.
> >
> *** 28V Cessnas?
>
> Also, this reminds me of a really interesting article I found on the
> Internet - nothing to do with airplanes, everything to do with
> charging voltage of batteries:
>
> http://www.landiss.com/battery.htm
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electronic capacitance fuel gauge |
senders
John,
As previously mentioned, Jim Weir designed a module to allow capacitance senders
to be used with standard (ie cheap) resistive style gauges. I've installed
the capacitance senders in both fuel tanks of my RV-8A. A friend of mine is currently
building a pair of Jim Weir's modules for me. Feel free to contact me
off list at chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net for more info.
Charlie Kuss
>> Who is EI? I'm looking for capacitence senders and gauges that cost less than
$300. Any recommendations?
>> John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RG Battery Standard charging |
At 08:23 AM 7/23/2002Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> Yes, you can smoke an RG battery or any other battery
> by overcharging it. It's not difficult to avoid
> overcharge damage and if it does happen, likelihood
> of severe consequences is nil.
>
> Bob . . .
My old Cherokee 160 had a generator not an alternator and I went through
batteries like crazy and smoked radios in the panel more than once. I
discovered they voltage regulator had to be replaced. using a Piper Part it
was pretty pricey and would only last a while. Taking them apart I
discovered the field contacts were welded closed. One time it overheated
the generator so much it slung the solder out of it. I took it to an
Auto-Electric shop and they refurbished it for a small fraction of the cost
of getting a rebuilt one. Eventually I found another voltage regulator that
would last longer just by looking at the shape of the case to match the
mounting holes. It was for a John Deere combine. They were a fraction of
the cost but still didn't last more than a year.
1) Was it legal for me (not an A&P) to remove the generator and have it
repaired at an Auto-Electric shop? How about using the John Deere part
which worked better but still wasn't a solution?
2) Why did the field points weld closed every few hours?
3) If I could have installed your crowbar OV protection back then, would
that have solved the problem? Or is there more to the picture?
BTW, even though the battery cables going to the starter were huge, it
always seemed to be marginal whether it would turn over when cold. Would
have to hit the starter button a couple of times to get it to start to spin
over. One time at an airport, got a jump with 24 volts and boy did it start
quickly.
Since the battery usually had one totally bad cell from the overcharging I
got used to hand starting that Cherokee as a matter of course.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(425)641-1773 fax |
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 in dual battery configuration |
Bob,
I am using your Z-13 and Z-25 drawings for a dual battery configuration.
A main battery for all components and FADEC primary supply buss, a 7amp
battery for Ess. and FADEC secondary buss. My question concerns a "what
if" I were to leave a switch on for example in ground testing ESS buss
or left on FADEC power and ended up discharging 7 amp battery. There is
no way to bring the SD-8 "on line" as power for the relay comes via the
discharged battery. So the question is to get the SD-8 on line to
charge the backup battery, should I use a switch to temporarily bypass
the relay, or another relay to crossfeed the main battery/alternator to
charge the backup battery?
Dave Ford
RV6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RG Battery Standard charging |
Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:
>
> 1) Was it legal for me (not an A&P) to remove the generator and have it
> repaired at an Auto-Electric shop?
*** No. It wouldn't even be legal for you to remove it and have it repaired
by an FAA repair station. You would need to have it signed off by an A&P or
IA.
How about using the John Deere part
> which worked better but still wasn't a solution?
>
*** Nope.
> BTW, even though the battery cables going to the starter were huge, it
> always seemed to be marginal whether it would turn over when cold. Would
> have to hit the starter button a couple of times to get it to start to spin
> over. One time at an airport, got a jump with 24 volts and boy did it start
> quickly.
*** Aluminum battery cables? Seems to me that Piper was using aluminum
cables... People used to replace them with copper, there are approved kits
for that.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire size confusion |
>
> >
> > Bob . . .
>OK, thanks. One follow-on question if I may....
>I can't see any reason why I'd want nav lights off and position lights on,
>or vice versa, so can I splice these wires up at the fitting and just run
>one feed, or is that a no-no?
>John Slade, Cozy IV
You lost me. Which are the 'nav' and which are the 'position'
lights? Around here the terms are interchangeable in referring
to the red, white and green lights at the corners of the airframe.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire size confusion |
> >I can't see any reason why I'd want nav lights off and position
> lights on,
> >or vice versa, so can I splice these wires up at the fitting and just run
> >one feed, or is that a no-no?
> >John Slade, Cozy IV
>
> You lost me. Which are the 'nav' and which are the 'position'
> lights? Around here the terms are interchangeable in referring
> to the red, white and green lights at the corners of the airframe.
>
Ah. By "Nav" lights I mean the red and green. By "Position" lights I mean
the white rearward facing lights. You're talking about the fittings. I'm
talking about the individual bulbs which each have a wire coming out of the
fitting. I guess I should just splice these together at or inside the
fitting.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG Battery Standard charging |
>
>
>At 08:23 AM 7/23/2002Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> > Yes, you can smoke an RG battery or any other battery
> > by overcharging it. It's not difficult to avoid
> > overcharge damage and if it does happen, likelihood
> > of severe consequences is nil.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>My old Cherokee 160 had a generator not an alternator and I went through
>batteries like crazy and smoked radios in the panel more than once. I
>discovered they voltage regulator had to be replaced. using a Piper Part it
>was pretty pricey and would only last a while. Taking them apart I
>discovered the field contacts were welded closed. One time it overheated
>the generator so much it slung the solder out of it. I took it to an
>Auto-Electric shop and they refurbished it for a small fraction of the cost
>of getting a rebuilt one. Eventually I found another voltage regulator that
>would last longer just by looking at the shape of the case to match the
>mounting holes. It was for a John Deere combine. They were a fraction of
>the cost but still didn't last more than a year.
>
>1) Was it legal for me (not an A&P) to remove the generator and have it
>repaired at an Auto-Electric shop? How about using the John Deere part
>which worked better but still wasn't a solution?
No, but a whole LOT of folks used to do just that.
>2) Why did the field points weld closed every few hours?
Relatively poor quality of regulator or perhaps the generator
had a shorted field winding that caused it to draw excessive
current.
>3) If I could have installed your crowbar OV protection back then, would
>that have solved the problem? Or is there more to the picture?
The crowbar ovm combined with a relay to open the generator's
field winding during an ov condition would help avoid the
consequences of an ov condition.
>BTW, even though the battery cables going to the starter were huge, it
>always seemed to be marginal whether it would turn over when cold. Would
>have to hit the starter button a couple of times to get it to start to spin
>over. One time at an airport, got a jump with 24 volts and boy did it start
>quickly.
Yup, used to crank 6v cars from 12v cars and got similar
results . . . obviously, a condition that has to be limited
in terms of how long you leave things connected up!
>Since the battery usually had one totally bad cell from the overcharging I
>got used to hand starting that Cherokee as a matter of course.
Yeah, my mom had a straight-8 Pontiac with a 6v system that
WOULD NOT start for a combination of reasons in very cold
weather. Worked out a combination of heat lamps on battery,
carb and fuel pump plus battery trickle charger to keep the
ol beast primed for a 0-degree start the next day. Those
were not the GOOD Ol's DAYS!
>Paul Franz
My articles archive server went dark last night and e-mail
to the hardware guy bounced as well (might be network problem).
Thought I'd load the articles back onto Dr. Teeth but found
that pipe plugged too. Got a reading for me?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heads-up on Blue Mountain |
>
> There are two sides to every story, and it's interesting to read the other
>side as well. This is all available on the Blue Mountain website.
>Sometimes it's hard to figure out which side is telling the truth, but I
>personnally will be very cautious when dealing with Lancair from now on (ya,
>right - like I'm shopping for a IVP). But if half of what Greg said about
>Lancair is true, then when I do hit the lottery I'll skip right over them
>and get a Maverick jet or something else instead ;<}.
The division of Lancair I was referring to is their avionics
assembly and builder assistance center. I spent the better part
of three days working with a capable and attentive staff who
took time off from their tasks of assembling instrument panels
for builders to attend my seminar.
There were about a dozen panels under construction that ranged
from 30 to 100K dollars. The impression I got working with these
folks was that they are always looking for ways to give more
value to their customers. They've assembled a lot of glass
cockpit installations. My impression was that they would
be delighted to offer a $10K EFIS to their customers if
they can credibly recommend it. A question that comes to
mind about your comment is why they would they lie to me?
I was told that someone from BMA was in their shop personally
at least once and that they had tried to install a BMA system
in an airframe several times. It demonstrated serious bugs in
behavior when the sensor system was put into motion.
Some of the Lancair folks monitor this list. If anyone there
would care to give us a factual narrative of their experience
with BMA, I'm sure we'd like to hear it.
> I have an EFIS/Lite mounted in my panel ready to go. Not flying yet, but
>I'm impressed with what I got and what I paid for it. If there are some
>bugs, I'm confident they will be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.
> Bad press on the internet spreads fast and can be pretty ruthless.
>Bob's comments were very diplomatic as usual and simply cautionary verses
>derogatory (and I agree, everyone should do their homework), but I just had
>to add a comment in support of BMA because I know they are working hard to
>get an affordable state-of-the-art instrument out to other homebuilders.
Can't comment because I don't know the details of
their operation. I do recall dozens of folks "working hard"
out of a building on Newton, KS airport for a number of years
while Jim Bede drummed up support for his idea of what the
future of amateur built airplanes ought to look like.
> I was waiting for the new MicroAir stuff and the Dynon and gave up on both
>because they were making delivery promises they couldn't keep, but I'm sure
>they will also work as advertised after initial development and delivery
>problems.
Yup, and I'm about to take them down off my website catalog
because I'm weary of making excuses to folks who want to buy
them. Of the several dozens of radios I've delivered, all seem
to be pleased with their purchase but that still doesn't
offset my discomfort with dangling a carrot that (for the moment)
cannot be reached . . .
> I guess that's just what it's like to be the first customers in
>the experimental market.
True. It's like buying stocks. If you go on faith, you
act based upon who's writings and oratory you find most attractive.
I'd prefer to build an activity based on a track record of
customers who believe they got good value for what they
received. Like a company's long term demonstrated
commitment to good value AND profitability, a customer's
words have more value than the supplier's words when
it comes to separating me from my money.
It's true that SOMEBODY has to be the first customer. For
myself, before I plunked down that kind of cash for any
of the first few articles, it would really be nice to see
it flying and get a pilot report from somebody who knows
what their doing when evaluating a new product. I'd
also like to see how well the thing is put together
inside.
I don't know if BMA has published any pilot reports but
they have invested in a lot of advertising and have a booth
at OSH . . . been there, done that, it takes a lot of
cash. For a fraction of what they've spent in promotion,
they could hire a credible reviewer to put sturdy legs
under their sales effort.
Before one of our customers took delivery of a new
Premier, we had about 1,000 hours of FLIGHT experience
with the machine and in spite of that effort, we're
still chasing bugs from systems. But the first airplane
didn't get delivered until we were as confident as
we could be that the airplane wasn't going to produce
really unhappy and perhaps lethal surprises.
I know that BMA doesn't have to be CERTIFIED but that
doesn't relieve them of a responsibility for having
the same confidences in their product's ability to
perform as if it WERE certified.
Call it "bad press" if you wish but if you find that
my facts are in error, I'd be pleased to know about it.
Errors not withstanding, the facts shared with me to
date suggest caution.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heads-up on Blue Mountain |
> A question that comes to
> mind about your comment is why they would they lie to me?
How about higher profit margins on higher priced equipment?
> I was told that someone from BMA was in their shop personally
Bob,
Have you read Greg Richter's description of what occured during that and
other visits?
If not, I think you should, as should anyone giving this Lancair commentary
any credence.
See http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/discus/messages/1/85.html?1027448310
and scroll down to Greg's comments.
Having read both sides of the story, my personal reaction is that there's
some very deliberate corporate politics going on here.
Bob, presuming that you don't have an axe to grind either way I'd very much
like to read YOUR evaluation of the Blue Mountain EFIS box. In the meantime,
I'm saving up for one.
> It's true that SOMEBODY has to be the first customer.
Its my understand that Blue Mountain has shipped over 100 units. I think
they're well past the first customer situation.
> Call it "bad press" if you wish but if you find that
> my facts are in error, I'd be pleased to know about it.
You havent mentioned any FACTS, Bob. Just relayed second hand comments from
one of the parties.
My 2c
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Wire size confusion |
>
> > >I can't see any reason why I'd want nav lights off and position
> > lights on,
> > >or vice versa, so can I splice these wires up at the fitting and just run
> > >one feed, or is that a no-no?
> > >John Slade, Cozy IV
> >
> > You lost me. Which are the 'nav' and which are the 'position'
> > lights? Around here the terms are interchangeable in referring
> > to the red, white and green lights at the corners of the airframe.
> >
>Ah. By "Nav" lights I mean the red and green. By "Position" lights I mean
>the white rearward facing lights. You're talking about the fittings. I'm
>talking about the individual bulbs which each have a wire coming out of the
>fitting. I guess I should just splice these together at or inside the
>fitting.
>John Slade
Interesting. I've never heard that distinction made before.
Anywho, around here we tie all the lights together on one
circuit and power them up through about a 7A fuse/breaker
with 20AWG or larger wire.
Butt splices at any convenient place is okay . . . or,
you can put three 20AWG wires into a single blue terminal
for attachment to the switch. If it were my airplane, I
would bring all three wires right up to the switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 in dual battery configuration |
>
>Bob,
>
>I am using your Z-13 and Z-25 drawings for a dual battery configuration.
>A main battery for all components and FADEC primary supply buss, a 7amp
>battery for Ess. and FADEC secondary buss. My question concerns a "what
>if" I were to leave a switch on for example in ground testing ESS buss
>or left on FADEC power and ended up discharging 7 amp battery.
Any time I do extended maintenance on an airplane that calls
for closing a battery contactor, I hook a ground power supply
to the system. The task of being a mechanic is not much different
than being a pilot . . . many of the same hazards exist but
the results are usually less lethal. Why anyone would do any
extended ground ops battery-only is like taking off with low
fuel.
> There is
>no way to bring the SD-8 "on line" as power for the relay comes via the
>discharged battery. So the question is to get the SD-8 on line to
>charge the backup battery, should I use a switch to temporarily bypass
>the relay, or another relay to crossfeed the main battery/alternator to
>charge the backup battery?
If you're going to have two alternators and two batteries, then
an architecture more like Z-14 is in order. I've had several folks
express an interest in this combination. The major points are
that the aux battery could be small (7A is fine), crossfeed relay
and battery relays can downsize to 30A plastic relays like our
S704-1, and you get the ability to put either or both batteries
on line to bring up either alternator. I'd also suggest a ground
power connection even if it's only rated for 20A or so. This lets
you connect a product like
http://www.samlexamerica.com/samlexhome.htm
. . . and avoid both wear, tear and risk of deep-discharging
your battery(s).
By the way, has your FADEC been tested for ability to stay
on line during brownout expected during normal cranking?
So systems go brain-dead during cranking and need independent
battery support during start up.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the |
| discomfort of thought. ~ John F. Kennedy |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Wire size confusion |
> > > >I can't see any reason why I'd want nav lights off and position
> > > lights on,
> > > >or vice versa, so can I splice these wires up at the fitting
> and just run
> > > >one feed, or is that a no-no?
> > > >John Slade, Cozy IV
> > >
> > > You lost me. Which are the 'nav' and which are the 'position'
> > > lights? Around here the terms are interchangeable in referring
> > > to the red, white and green lights at the corners of the airframe.
> > >
> >Ah. By "Nav" lights I mean the red and green. By "Position" lights I mean
> >the white rearward facing lights. You're talking about the fittings. I'm
> >talking about the individual bulbs which each have a wire coming
> out of the
> >fitting. I guess I should just splice these together at or inside the
> >fitting.
> >John Slade
>
>
> Interesting. I've never heard that distinction made before.
> Anywho, around here we tie all the lights together on one
> circuit and power them up through about a 7A fuse/breaker
> with 20AWG or larger wire.
>
> Butt splices at any convenient place is okay . . . or,
> you can put three 20AWG wires into a single blue terminal
> for attachment to the switch.
> If it were my airplane, I
> would bring all three wires right up to the switch.
>
> Bob . . .
Hmmm. Thats what I'm doing, but I'm left wondering... why am I doing this?
So I can still have some lights if one circuit fails?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft chargers |
>
>
> Also, this reminds me of a really interesting article I found on the
>Internet - nothing to do with airplanes, everything to do with
>charging voltage of batteries:
>
> http://www.landiss.com/battery.htm
Nice link. Pretty much accurate too. But keep in mind that
all he is talking about here are flooded batteries . . . even
if they are of the so called "maintenance free" type.
The site also give you links to a ton of other info from
manufacturers. Thanks for the heads up Jerry!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
June 27, 2002 - July 24, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-az