AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bb
August 12, 2002 - August 25, 2002
> Bob (or others),
>
> I have researched and read your articles and threads on the
> antiquity of the AMS. However, I believe I have a unique
> situation that an AMS is the only logical solution I can
> find. I'm hoping you can help.
>
> BACKGROUND: Lancair Legacy 2000
> Supercharged IO-550
> Planning a dual 17Ah bat, dual 70A
> alternator system
>
> The "glass cockpit" avionics package I am pursuing consists
> of a pair of Chelton/Sierra Flight Systems EFIS 2000
> computers, along with a Crossbow AHRS. I have placed the
> basic needed equipment on the ESS bus, and the rest on the
> PRI bus. However, with using the smaller 17Ah batteries,
> both will be required for starting. With the typical
> equipment in my stack (PS audio panel, garmin 430, garmin
> 330) having switches on them, this doesn't present a problem;
> just make sure I have them all off when I start the engine if
> I was worried about any undervoltage problems.
>
> However, the EFIS and AHRS don't have power switches on the
> units; therefore, it seems to me that they would require an
> AMS. Not only that, but since one EFIS is on the PRI bus,
> and one is on the ESS bus (with the AHRS), it would follow
> that I would need 2 AMS's, one for each bus.
>
> With this said, and as it would seem that 2 AMS's are
> required, what would you suggest as a backup to throw power
> to the ESS bus if the ESS AMS fails (per your recommendation
> in http://216.55.140.222/articles/avmaster.pdf)?
>
> Would a simple switch to control power to the avionics busses
> be best, or would a switch that feeds a contactor be more
> robust and trustworthy? I ask, because the contactor solution
> would provide a simpler solution to the backup question in
> the previous paragraph.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ---
> Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | The old AV Master debate |
Matt,
One reason is a stuck starter contactor. It's rare but has happened to
me and others. Having a second fat, hot wire from the battery is
another.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
>
>
>
> I DO have a question for Bob however (though he's on
> vacation). Is there a reason why the starting circuit can't
> be always hot - like its wired on lots of cars? That way you
> could crank the engine with the master off, but the mags/ei
> on. Then once every thing is running, kick the master on,
> and away you go....
>
> ....Actually, I just looked at schematic Z-17, and found it
> almost the way I am suggesting, except that it looks like
> power to the starting switch comes off the master powered
> bus. You could wire as always hot, instead - maybe only safe
> if you have a key switch? The other concern here is if the
> starter is not physically near the battery, you are stuck
> with mounting the starter contactor close to the battery,
> which eliminates being able to use the heavy battery cables
> to carry the alternator output. Or, you could mount the
> starter contactor close to the starter (far from the
> battery), and live with having a heavy guage always hot cable
> - not good. I'd go the first route.
>
> Matt-
> N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
You can tell I am a new guy here. Greg has a better suggestion. Adding
a switch just to each EFIS is probably the best bet.
And his post about a sticking starter contactor is another good point.
Even if you had a light/anunciator indicating that the condition was
happening, it could be pretty annoying (dangerous) having to disconnect
the battery mechanically with a propellor whirling away. Does someone
build a contactor that is not prone to this kind of failure? It seems
cheesy to have to design-in series contactors for safety. I guess you
could use the old Continental pull style starter.... just kidding. At
least this kind of emergency could be caught on the ground. Maybe a
contactor should be servicable so that its contacts and sliding
mechanism can be checked at anual for signs of iminent failure. Since
they are cheap, if the contactor looks questionable, just replace it.
I am glad others are reading this.
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: The old AV Master debate
> sol.com>
> Shannon,
> Just because you feel the need for a switch on the EFIS doesn't
> dictatean Avionics Master Switch, i.e. tying all the avionics gear
> into one
> switch. The main argument against the AMS is that it is a single point
> of failure that can take down multiple pieces of equipment. If you
> needor want to switch a single unit (or dependant units) then by
> all means
> do so. There is no need to switch the whole avionics buss just to
> add a
> power switch for the EFIS.
>
> Regards,
> Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
> RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
> Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
Greg Young wrote:
>
> Shannon,
> Just because you feel the need for a switch on the EFIS doesn't dictate
> an Avionics Master Switch, i.e. tying all the avionics gear into one
> switch. The main argument against the AMS is that it is a single point
> of failure that can take down multiple pieces of equipment.
*** How about a bank of toggle switches that are somehow mechanically
coupled - with a plastic bar on the outside. You pull on the bar, all the
switches switch. Convenience and safety! The bar would be made to somehow
come off easily - in case one of the switches broke internally and got
stuck mechanically.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom & Cathy Ervin
Subject: Wiring Bug
List, Boy everything was going great on the wiring each circuit had
power and the smoke stayed in the wires!
Now for the Final Test I flipped the Master Switch and the
Starter solenoid is just clicking away?? I double checked the Master
Switch wiring and everything seems fine?? Boy I knew I was going to run
into some "Bug" but I am baffled on this one.
Sure hope someone out there has some ideas.
Thanks, Tom in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
Low battery voltage?
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom &
Cathy Ervin
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Wiring Bug
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom & Cathy Ervin
Subject: Wiring Bug
List, Boy everything was going great on the wiring each circuit had
power and the smoke stayed in the wires!
Now for the Final Test I flipped the Master Switch and the
Starter solenoid is just clicking away?? I double checked the Master
Switch wiring and everything seems fine?? Boy I knew I was going to run
into some "Bug" but I am baffled on this one.
Sure hope someone out there has some ideas.
Thanks, Tom in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | deltab(at)erols.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Wiring Bug |
Sounds like multiple problems. First your battery is low, but
that's good. Otherwise it would crank. Disconnect the little wire
from the starter contactor. Then try again. It shouldn't make any
noise. See if there is battery voltage at the lead you
disconnected. If it's there, it's not supposed to be. Could be
something simple as your start switch IS on. Probably no that
simple. Tell us what you find.]
Bernie C.
Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom & Cathy Ervin
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Wiring Bug
>
> List, Boy everything was going great on the wiring each circuit had
> power and the smoke stayed in the wires!
> Now for the Final Test I flipped the Master Switch and the
> Starter solenoid is just clicking away?? I double checked the Master
> Switch wiring and everything seems fine?? Boy I knew I was going to run
> into some "Bug" but I am baffled on this one.
> Sure hope someone out there has some ideas.
>
> Thanks, Tom in Ohio
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Wiring Bug |
Bruce, I have a new battery and it also does the same thing using a 12 Volt
Power Supply?
Low Voltage is what I would think if I had been trying to engage
the starter? The starter solenoid started clicking rapidly by just turning
on the Master Switch which should only activate the battery master solenoid
and essential buss?
Keep those
ideas coming though, Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Wiring Bug
>
> Low battery voltage?
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom &
> Cathy Ervin
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Wiring Bug
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom & Cathy Ervin
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Wiring Bug
>
>
> List, Boy everything was going great on the wiring each circuit had
> power and the smoke stayed in the wires!
> Now for the Final Test I flipped the Master Switch and the
> Starter solenoid is just clicking away?? I double checked the Master
> Switch wiring and everything seems fine?? Boy I knew I was going to run
> into some "Bug" but I am baffled on this one.
> Sure hope someone out there has some ideas.
>
> Thanks, Tom in Ohio
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Wiring Bug |
Bernie, I have a new Battery but just to be sure I connected a 12 volt
power supply up in place of the battery......No dice.....problem still
there.
I would have thought a low power condition also if I were
turning the key to engage the starter but this happens as soon as you turn
on the Master Switch?
Good thing I have the week off ....keep those good ideas coming.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: <deltab(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Wiring Bug
>
> Sounds like multiple problems. First your battery is low, but
> that's good. Otherwise it would crank. Disconnect the little wire
> from the starter contactor. Then try again. It shouldn't make any
> noise. See if there is battery voltage at the lead you
> disconnected. If it's there, it's not supposed to be. Could be
> something simple as your start switch IS on. Probably no that
> simple. Tell us what you find.]
>
> Bernie C.
>
>
> Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote:
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tom & Cathy Ervin
> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Wiring Bug
> >
> > List, Boy everything was going great on the wiring each circuit had
> > power and the smoke stayed in the wires!
> > Now for the Final Test I flipped the Master Switch and the
> > Starter solenoid is just clicking away?? I double checked the Master
> > Switch wiring and everything seems fine?? Boy I knew I was going to run
> > into some "Bug" but I am baffled on this one.
> > Sure hope someone out there has some ideas.
> >
> > Thanks, Tom in Ohio
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Wiring Bug |
Is this starter solenoid separate from the starter, or part of the starter
like a B&C starter? How is the solenoid wired? If the solenoid is
chattering because it's trying to engage, but has a low battery, replacing
the battery with a 12V power supply won't help any unless it's one of those
400A ground power carts. Do as someone else suggested and disconnect the
starter from the solenoid and see if it still chatters or just comes on. If
it then just comes on, you can then investigate why it is coming on without
turning the start switch.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> Bernie, I have a new Battery but just to be sure I connected a 12 volt
> power supply up in place of the battery......No dice.....problem still
> there.
> I would have thought a low power condition also if I were
> turning the key to engage the starter but this happens as soon as you turn
> on the Master Switch?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | The old AV Master debate |
Shannon,
The problem that you have is almost solved by a power switch for each
EFIS and the AHRS. However, if you need to do a restart in the air,
loosing power to the AHRS may be a problem. Will it repower without
loosing the level reference? You might want to keep the AHRS and
possible the EFIS powered up at all times. The solution is simple.
Each buss should be fed by a diode from its alternator, as if each were
an essential buss, as each buss feeds an EFIS. For each buss, attach a
small 4-5 amp-hour battery via a diode-own small battery, two diodes.
The small battery would power both busses during cranking, and at no
other time. The only remaining problem is keeping the small battery
charged. That is done by a single pole double throw switch. Prestart
position: battery plus connected to the diode feeds. Run position:
battery plus connects to one alternator. You would also need to
deconnect the small battery when the engine was off. Using the oil
pressure switch to drive a small relay is one method that avoids the
problem of forgetting to turn it off.
The easiest solution is to use only one battery for starting. The
Odessey RG batteries have very low internal resistance: about 7
milliohms for the 17 AH size. 400 amps draw would drop battery voltage
2.8 volts-not bad. This way, the AHRS and one EFIS could be fully
powered at all times.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Wiring Bug |
David, The Starter Solenoid is on the firewall and wired per Vans Wiring
Diagram in their wiring kit. I will disconnect the starter feed from the
solenoid this morning and see if that stops the solenoid chatter.
Thanks for all the good ideas.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Wiring Bug
>
> Is this starter solenoid separate from the starter, or part of the starter
> like a B&C starter? How is the solenoid wired? If the solenoid is
> chattering because it's trying to engage, but has a low battery, replacing
> the battery with a 12V power supply won't help any unless it's one of
those
> 400A ground power carts. Do as someone else suggested and disconnect the
> starter from the solenoid and see if it still chatters or just comes on.
If
> it then just comes on, you can then investigate why it is coming on
without
> turning the start switch.
>
> David Swartzendruber
> Wichita
>
>
> >
> > Bernie, I have a new Battery but just to be sure I connected a 12 volt
> > power supply up in place of the battery......No dice.....problem still
> > there.
> > I would have thought a low power condition also if I were
> > turning the key to engage the starter but this happens as soon as you
turn
> > on the Master Switch?
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Avionics Systems" <hk53(at)his.com> |
| Subject: | Navigatrion Select Switch |
The MD-200 only takes analog deviation inputs, which the SL-30 does
output. The Garmin 195 only outputs RS-232 information, which the
MD-200 does not accept. You could use a Porcine Smart Coupler (
www.porcine.com ) to convert the RS-232 output to analog right / left in
GPS mode, but the valid flag would be in view even with valid GPS info
being presented, and the to-from flag would be inoperative because the
Smart Coupler only outputs right / left info (a kinda clunky setup).
This setup would still require a switching relay.
The Eaton switch is a switch that must be used in conjunction with a
switching relay that switches analog nav and GPS info to a single CDI,
the Eaton switch cannot switch this info by itself. Depending on the
equipment you have, you will need a 10 to 16 pole switching relay.
David Buckwalter
Avionics Systems
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Rookie Questions |
Hi Folks,
Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change, and I'm just the man
for that job:) Here goes.
1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on forward side of firewall.
Obviously, need to pass one big fat wire through the firewall. How best
to get that done? Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it can stay tight
to the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a separate firewall
post for that wire (I don't like that idea too much....just another failure
point.)
2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg wire carried in the
B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home Depot (other than price)
Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim V. Wickert" <JimW_btg(at)compuserve.com> |
Anouther source for a good battery is Digikey. I have used the Panasonic
Seald battery great quality and great price. I have a catalog that is
about a year plus old and the Panasonic 12 volt , Model P174-ND 17 AH
capacity @ a 20h rate, ( size 7.13" x 2.99" x 6,58 ") $36..23 and the Model
P231-ND, 20 AH capacity (same size) $41.13 the word from a frined is that
in the new catalog they are lower price? Good product however>
Jim Wicket
Vision #159
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Bowen <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigatrion Select Switch |
This sounds similar to a situation I have. I have the SL30, MD 200, TruTrak AP
and Garmin 196 GPS. TruTrak said that the 196 could provide current track info
to the AP, but not the ARNIC (?) data needed to provide multi-leg guidance --
IE GPSS. So the best I can do is look at the GPS see on course is 315`, for
example, manually dial that into the TruTrak and tell in to head in that
direction. Effective, but not very efficent considering the equipement I have.
What would you guys do if you had these components to maximize their
usefulness?
Thanks,
Larry
BowenAero.com
--- Avionics Systems wrote:
>
> The MD-200 only takes analog deviation inputs, which the SL-30 does
> output. The Garmin 195 only outputs RS-232 information, which the
> MD-200 does not accept. You could use a Porcine Smart Coupler (
> www.porcine.com ) to convert the RS-232 output to analog right / left in
> GPS mode, but the valid flag would be in view even with valid GPS info
> being presented, and the to-from flag would be inoperative because the
> Smart Coupler only outputs right / left info (a kinda clunky setup).
> This setup would still require a switching relay.
>
> The Eaton switch is a switch that must be used in conjunction with a
> switching relay that switches analog nav and GPS info to a single CDI,
> the Eaton switch cannot switch this info by itself. Depending on the
> equipment you have, you will need a 10 to 16 pole switching relay.
>
> David Buckwalter
> Avionics Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
| Subject: | Navigatrion Select Switch |
David,
Thank you very much for your helpful explanation! I have the Smart Coupler to use
the Garmin 195 data for the Navaid autopilot. Following the KISS principle,
I think I will hook up the MD-200 only to the SL-30 and not to the Garmin. The
Navaid will be fed either with GPS data via the Smart Coupler or with Nav data
from the SL-30. A double pole switch should allow to choose one of the two
sources. Or do you see any problems with this concept?
Alfred Buess
>>> hk53(at)his.com 08/13 2:12 >>>
The MD-200 only takes analog deviation inputs, which the SL-30 does
output. The Garmin 195 only outputs RS-232 information, which the
MD-200 does not accept. You could use a Porcine Smart Coupler (
www.porcine.com ) to convert the RS-232 output to analog right / left in
GPS mode, but the valid flag would be in view even with valid GPS info
being presented, and the to-from flag would be inoperative because the
Smart Coupler only outputs right / left info (a kinda clunky setup).
This setup would still require a switching relay.
The Eaton switch is a switch that must be used in conjunction with a
switching relay that switches analog nav and GPS info to a single CDI,
the Eaton switch cannot switch this info by itself. Depending on the
equipment you have, you will need a 10 to 16 pole switching relay.
David Buckwalter
Avionics Systems
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Rookie Questions |
HI Bill,
I have that setup on my RV6, and it works well.
#1. Don't bother passing a "fat wire" through the firewall. Summitt Racing
and many other shops sell a wonderful little insulated stud that is made
specifically for that purpose. It's a "bulkhead pass-through", and is a
great item. It's a stud surrounded by insulation. The stud is brass and
threaded on both sides, and is the same size stud as the battery studs.
Simple, easy and only about $10.00. I know most of my RV building friends
are doing the same. That fat #2 wire doesn't like to bend around tight
corners. FYI, the ground should just be a similar stud, only bolted through
the firewall so that the airframe is grounded also.
#2) The wire at Home Depot is most likely plain copper. I don't want to
start a war here, but I used good Aviation Tefzel wire throughout my plane.
That being said, MANY RV builders are using welding cables with great
results. The stuff is very flexible, and easy to use. You have to make
your own decision on flammability, and safety of the insulator.
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6, Minneapolis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
William Yamokoski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
Hi Folks,
Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change, and I'm just the
man for that job:) Here goes.
1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on forward side of
firewall. Obviously, need to pass one big fat wire through the firewall.
How best to get that done? Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it can
stay tight to the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a
separate firewall post for that wire (I don't like that idea too
much....just another failure point.)
2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg wire carried in
the B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home Depot (other than price)
Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rookie Questions |
Bill,
> -->
>
> Hi Folks,
> Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change,
> and I'm just the man for that job:) Here goes.
>
> 1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on
> forward side of firewall. Obviously, need to pass one big
> fat wire through the firewall. How best to get that done?
> Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it can stay tight to
> the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a
> separate firewall post for that wire (I don't like that idea
> too much....just another failure point.)
The major current draw is for starting so you really want a fat positive
wire direct from the battery/master to the starter contactor and then to
the starter and also a fat ground from the battery to the starter. My
preference is to run both thru the firewall. The pos goes to the
contactor(s). The neg goes to a ground bolt on the firewall with another
cable to the engine case. You can put the master on either side of the
firewall but I put it on the engine side so I could connect the master
and starter contactors with a copper bar. Either way you need a fat pos
wire thru the firewall. There are lots of choices for the penetration
itself and was discussed at length ~6 months ago (see the archives). I
used electrical conduit connectors. The important thing is to have some
physical protection to prevent the wire insulation from being cut thru
by the stainless firewall and the ability to seal against fumes.
>
> 2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg
> wire carried in the B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home
> Depot (other than price)
A major difference is the number of strands and flexibility. If you
don't want to pop for the Tefzel covered stuff then try welding cable.
It's extremely flexible, has super thick insulation and is CHEAP. I've
got to use the Tefzel to rewire my Navion but I used welding cable on
the RV.
>
> Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
> Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
>
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
Hi Stein,
Do you have a website address, phone number or address for Summitt
Racing. I am interested in the firewall feedthrough for battery +.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A panel wiring
Stein Bruch wrote:
>
>
> HI Bill,
>
> I have that setup on my RV6, and it works well.
>
> #1. Don't bother passing a "fat wire" through the firewall. Summitt Racing
> and many other shops sell a wonderful little insulated stud that is made
> specifically for that purpose. It's a "bulkhead pass-through", and is a
> great item. It's a stud surrounded by insulation. The stud is brass and
> threaded on both sides, and is the same size stud as the battery studs.
> Simple, easy and only about $10.00. I know most of my RV building friends
> are doing the same. That fat #2 wire doesn't like to bend around tight
> corners. FYI, the ground should just be a similar stud, only bolted through
> the firewall so that the airframe is grounded also.
>
> #2) The wire at Home Depot is most likely plain copper. I don't want to
> start a war here, but I used good Aviation Tefzel wire throughout my plane.
> That being said, MANY RV builders are using welding cables with great
> results. The stuff is very flexible, and easy to use. You have to make
> your own decision on flammability, and safety of the insulator.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6, Minneapolis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> William Yamokoski
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
> Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change, and I'm just the
> man for that job:) Here goes.
>
> 1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on forward side of
> firewall. Obviously, need to pass one big fat wire through the firewall.
> How best to get that done? Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it can
> stay tight to the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a
> separate firewall post for that wire (I don't like that idea too
> much....just another failure point.)
>
> 2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg wire carried in
> the B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home Depot (other than price)
>
> Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
> Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Steer" <bsteer(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
Try www.summitracing.com. It's part number MSD-8211 or MSD-8212.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
>
> Hi Stein,
> Do you have a website address, phone number or address for Summitt
> Racing. I am interested in the firewall feedthrough for battery +.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Dudley
> -6A panel wiring
>
> Stein Bruch wrote:
> >
> >
> > HI Bill,
> >
> > I have that setup on my RV6, and it works well.
> >
> > #1. Don't bother passing a "fat wire" through the firewall. Summitt Racing
> > and many other shops sell a wonderful little insulated stud that is made
> > specifically for that purpose. It's a "bulkhead pass-through", and is a
> > great item. It's a stud surrounded by insulation. The stud is brass and
> > threaded on both sides, and is the same size stud as the battery studs.
> > Simple, easy and only about $10.00. I know most of my RV building friends
> > are doing the same. That fat #2 wire doesn't like to bend around tight
> > corners. FYI, the ground should just be a similar stud, only bolted through
> > the firewall so that the airframe is grounded also.
> >
> > #2) The wire at Home Depot is most likely plain copper. I don't want to
> > start a war here, but I used good Aviation Tefzel wire throughout my plane.
> > That being said, MANY RV builders are using welding cables with great
> > results. The stuff is very flexible, and easy to use. You have to make
> > your own decision on flammability, and safety of the insulator.
> >
> > Hope this helps!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Stein Bruch
> > RV6, Minneapolis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> > William Yamokoski
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> > Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change, and I'm just the
> > man for that job:) Here goes.
> >
> > 1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on forward side of
> > firewall. Obviously, need to pass one big fat wire through the firewall.
> > How best to get that done? Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it can
> > stay tight to the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a
> > separate firewall post for that wire (I don't like that idea too
> > much....just another failure point.)
> >
> > 2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg wire carried in
> > the B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home Depot (other than price)
> >
> > Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
> > Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Adkins" <ccadkins(at)dragg.net> |
| Subject: | Rookie Questions |
www.summitracing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Richard Dudley
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
Hi Stein,
Do you have a website address, phone number or address for Summitt
Racing. I am interested in the firewall feedthrough for battery +.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A panel wiring
Stein Bruch wrote:
>
>
> HI Bill,
>
> I have that setup on my RV6, and it works well.
>
> #1. Don't bother passing a "fat wire" through the firewall. Summitt
Racing
> and many other shops sell a wonderful little insulated stud that is made
> specifically for that purpose. It's a "bulkhead pass-through", and is a
> great item. It's a stud surrounded by insulation. The stud is brass and
> threaded on both sides, and is the same size stud as the battery studs.
> Simple, easy and only about $10.00. I know most of my RV building friends
> are doing the same. That fat #2 wire doesn't like to bend around tight
> corners. FYI, the ground should just be a similar stud, only bolted
through
> the firewall so that the airframe is grounded also.
>
> #2) The wire at Home Depot is most likely plain copper. I don't want to
> start a war here, but I used good Aviation Tefzel wire throughout my
plane.
> That being said, MANY RV builders are using welding cables with great
> results. The stuff is very flexible, and easy to use. You have to make
> your own decision on flammability, and safety of the insulator.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6, Minneapolis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> William Yamokoski
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
> Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change, and I'm just
the
> man for that job:) Here goes.
>
> 1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on forward side
of
> firewall. Obviously, need to pass one big fat wire through the firewall.
> How best to get that done? Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it
can
> stay tight to the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a
> separate firewall post for that wire (I don't like that idea too
> much....just another failure point.)
>
> 2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg wire carried in
> the B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home Depot (other than price)
>
> Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
> Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Adkins" <ccadkins(at)dragg.net> |
| Subject: | Rookie Questions |
Look at: http://moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=42224
Scroll down to Item #74145
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Richard Dudley
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
Hi Stein,
Do you have a website address, phone number or address for Summitt
Racing. I am interested in the firewall feedthrough for battery +.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A panel wiring
Stein Bruch wrote:
>
>
> HI Bill,
>
> I have that setup on my RV6, and it works well.
>
> #1. Don't bother passing a "fat wire" through the firewall. Summitt
Racing
> and many other shops sell a wonderful little insulated stud that is made
> specifically for that purpose. It's a "bulkhead pass-through", and is a
> great item. It's a stud surrounded by insulation. The stud is brass and
> threaded on both sides, and is the same size stud as the battery studs.
> Simple, easy and only about $10.00. I know most of my RV building friends
> are doing the same. That fat #2 wire doesn't like to bend around tight
> corners. FYI, the ground should just be a similar stud, only bolted
through
> the firewall so that the airframe is grounded also.
>
> #2) The wire at Home Depot is most likely plain copper. I don't want to
> start a war here, but I used good Aviation Tefzel wire throughout my
plane.
> That being said, MANY RV builders are using welding cables with great
> results. The stuff is very flexible, and easy to use. You have to make
> your own decision on flammability, and safety of the insulator.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6, Minneapolis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> William Yamokoski
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rookie Questions
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
> Somebody needs to ask some easy questions for a change, and I'm just
the
> man for that job:) Here goes.
>
> 1.) Starter contactor and alternator contactor mounted on forward side
of
> firewall. Obviously, need to pass one big fat wire through the firewall.
> How best to get that done? Does that stuff make a 90 degree bend so it
can
> stay tight to the firewall after it passes through? Do people create a
> separate firewall post for that wire (I don't like that idea too
> much....just another failure point.)
>
> 2.) Can someone explain the difference between the 2 awg wire carried in
> the B&C catalog and the stuff I find at Home Depot (other than price)
>
> Thanks very much for indulging a beginner.
> Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
Thanks Stein and Greg. I noted a positive reference to welding cable in Bob's
book. I'll maybe use that aft of the firewall, where I'll need lots of fat
wire. Due to weight and balance considerations, many Glastar builders end up
putting the batteries about 10 feet aft of the firewall. So...two long 4 awg
battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point from B&C) and a fat 2 awg
wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead pass-through (just ordered from
Summit Racing) Maybe pop for the expensive stuff forward of the firewall...maybe
not :)
thanks again
Bill Yamokosk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
In a message dated 8/13/02 11:35:33 AM Central Daylight Time,
yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us writes:
> So...two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point from
> B&C) and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead
> pass-through (just ordered from Summit Racing) Maybe pop for the
> expensive stuff forward of the firewall...maybe not :)
> thanks again
> Bill Yamokosk
>
>
Good Morning Bill,
Has anyone checked the difference, if any, in weight between the Tefzel
insulated wire and the welding cable. An ounce here and an ounce there
really add up!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | switching nav inputs |
Previous AeroElectric-List message posted by "Alfred Buess"
"I have a similar question: In my Europa XS aircraft, the panel is equipped
with an Apollo SL-30 Nav/Comm, a Garmin 195 GPSMAP, a MD200-306 Indicator for
track and glideslope and a Navaid autopilot. I need a switch to select the
indicator and the autopilot input between the Nav and the GPS. Pacific Coast
Avionics sell an Eaton Annuciator Switch for GPS/NAV, but I have no specific
information about it and don't know if it handles the data given by the SL-30
and the GARMIN 195 correctly. Pacific Coast Avionics don't reply to emails
asking for more information.
Does anyone know the Eaton Annuciator Switch for GPS/NAV or even have any
experiences? Or is there a better solution for this switching task?
Thanks in advance for all replies! Alfred Buess Europa HB-YKI "
8/13/2002
Hello Alfred, Please see my earlier response to Charles Brame and David
Buckwalters additional cautionary comments.
I would like to emphasize on principle that many signals must be changed /
transferred in the switching scenario that you are attempting. It is very
unlikely that the switch itself would be capable of changing all those items.
Instead the switch would activate a box containing several relays which would
do the actual switching.
A detailed knowledge of the signals involved, their compatibility, and the
inner workings of the relay box (such as a Northern Airborne Technologies
RS16-001) is required.
I'm sorry that it is not easier / simpler to do. I hired a professional to
wire my panel.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Rookie Questions |
> Try www.summitracing.com. It's part number MSD-8211 or MSD-8212.
Those are for ignition wires. SUM-G1431 looks better.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
Don Mack installed one of these on his -6a and you can see it here.
http://www.dmack.net/rv6a/electricalonfirewall1.jpg
Mike Nellis - http://bmnellis.com
Georgetown, TX
Fuselage
RV6 N699BM Reserved
1947 Stinson 108-2 N9666K
> Hi Stein,
> Do you have a website address, phone number or address for Summitt
> Racing. I am interested in the firewall feedthrough for battery +.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
>
>In a message dated 8/13/02 11:35:33 AM Central Daylight Time,
>yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us writes:
>
>
> > So...two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point
> from
> > B&C) and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead
> > pass-through (just ordered from Summit Racing) Maybe pop for the
> > expensive stuff forward of the firewall...maybe not :)
> > thanks again
> > Bill Yamokosk
> >
> >
>
>Good Morning Bill,
>
>Has anyone checked the difference, if any, in weight between the Tefzel
>insulated wire and the welding cable. An ounce here and an ounce there
>really add up!
>
>Happy Skies,
Last time I looked, weights of the two materials
in pounds per foot were:
4AWG 2AWG
22759/16 .156 .231
Rubber
Welding .175 .270
Cable
So, if you use 8' of 4AWG in your RV, your weight
delta would be 3 ounces total. If you have an
aft mounted battery and use say, 12' of 2AWG
then the delta is about 7 ounces total.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
>
> > Try www.summitracing.com. It's part number MSD-8211 or MSD-8212.
>Those are for ignition wires. SUM-G1431 looks better.
>John Slade
Take care lest you put an opening in the firewall
that compromises the firewall's protective qualities.
The part number referenced above looks like a nylon
part that wouldn't last a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
In a message dated 8/13/02 8:01:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> Last time I looked, weights of the two materials
> in pounds per foot were:
>
> 4AWG 2AWG
>
> 22759/16 .156 .231
>
>
> Rubber
> Welding .175 .270
> Cable
>
> So, if you use 8' of 4AWG in your RV, your weight
> delta would be 3 ounces total. If you have an
> aft mounted battery and use say, 12' of 2AWG
> then the delta is about 7 ounces total.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob,
It appears that the welding cable is twelve percent heavier for the 4AWG and
16 percent heavier for the 2AWG. Only a half pound of actual eight, but a
quite large increase in weight when considered as a percentage of the whole.
On top of that, I suppose that the wire itself is likely to be awfully close
to the same weight, so the difference in the insulation's weight would likely
be a very big percentage increase.
Once again, a half pound isn't a lot, but those half pounds do add up to a
considerable amount when the decision is made hundreds of times during a
construction project. That is probably one of the reasons that so few kit
built airplanes end up as light or lighter than the kit sellers prototype.
If we are to gain the maximum efficiency in our designs, weight has to be a
consideration. Combine that with the better fire propagation characteristics
of the Tefzel and the price may not be excessive.
Food for thought!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS! |
Been using laptop keyboard all weekend and when I sat back
down at the desktop, I'm hitting all kinds of keys I don't
mean to! If I'm lucky, I'll get this finished before I hit
the "send" key . . .
>
> > Try www.summitracing.com. It's part number MSD-8211 or MSD-8212.
>Those are for ignition wires. SUM-G1431 looks better.
>John Slade
Take care lest you put an opening in the firewall
that compromises the firewall's protective qualities.
The part number referenced above looks like a nylon
part that wouldn't last a minute bathed in a fuel-fed
fire. If you use one of these fittings, at least I would
coat the firewall side of the fitting in enough fire-putty
to cover the plastic and hardware to a depth of 1/4" or
better.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: welding vs. tefzel wire |
>
>
>Thanks Stein and Greg. I noted a positive reference to welding cable in
>Bob's book. I'll maybe use that aft of the firewall, where I'll need
>lots of fat wire. Due to weight and balance considerations, many Glastar
>builders end up putting the batteries about 10 feet aft of the
>firewall. So...two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall
>grounding point from B&C) and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to
>firewall bulkhead pass-through (just ordered from Summit Racing) Maybe
>pop for the expensive stuff forward of the firewall...maybe not :)
>thanks again
>Bill Yamokosk
If it were my airplane, I'd probably go welding
cable throughout . . . the differences in weight
and performance are trivial, the differences in
ease of assembly are much greater and lean in
favor of welding cable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom Installation |
Clay;
I have not seen an ICOM up close but I would bet that the power and ground
connections are through an edge mount connector at the back of the circuit
board. Often the weak point is the actual tiny metal clip metal in the
connector and the metal foil contact on the circuit board. In other words,
running 8-10 amps through a single contact would be a likely point for a
failure to occur. Splitting the current supply through two contacts halves
the current down to a more reasonable level. Running two small wires to
handle the smaller current gives a degree redundancy back to the current
source. Your pinout diagram will probably show two contacts in use for the
supply and two for the ground.
That how the pro who did the install on my KY-97 VHF explained it to me
anyway.
Jim Oke
Winnipeg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clay Smith" <cbsmith(at)nf.sympatico.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom Installation
>
> I'm installing an Icom IC-A200 and read in the instructions to "use 2
> pairs of #18 AWG for power and power grounding wiring" What is 2 pairs
> of 18 AWG? Would that be 2 #18 wires tied together?? Any help would be
> appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Clay
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
Bob,
A couple years ago I did an experimental study of 22759/16-#4 vs. #4
welding cable, #2 welding cable, and 3/4" soft copper conduit... Using
a regulated voltage source, I measured current and voltage drop through
various lengths of these materials, and here are some of the results:
#4 22759/16: 0.137 lbs/ft, 0.245 mOhms/ft
#4 Welding cable: 0.170 lbs/ft, 0.230 mOhms/ft
#2 Welding cable: 0.275 lbs/ft, 0.148 mOhms/ft
3/4" copper tubing: 0.416 lbs/ft, 0.066 mOhms/ft
I've gone back and forth a bit on using the 3/4" copper for a ground
conduit (in a Velocity), but now have decided to do it for sure, and
running the potentially noisy stuff inside it (Alternator B-lead, mag
lead, electronic ignition power, strobe power, fuel pump power)... I'm
also using thickwall 5/8" teflon tubing to run additional sensor cables
(shielded of course), it is a breeze to pull additional cables through
either conduit!
-John
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>In a message dated 8/13/02 11:35:33 AM Central Daylight Time,
>>yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us writes:
>>
>>
>>> So...two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point
>>>
>>from
>>
>>>B&C) and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead
>>>pass-through (just ordered from Summit Racing) Maybe pop for the
>>>expensive stuff forward of the firewall...maybe not :)
>>>thanks again
>>>Bill Yamokosk
>>>
>>>
>>Good Morning Bill,
>>
>>Has anyone checked the difference, if any, in weight between the Tefzel
>>insulated wire and the welding cable. An ounce here and an ounce there
>>really add up!
>>
>>Happy Skies,
>>
>
>
> Last time I looked, weights of the two materials
> in pounds per foot were:
>
> 4AWG 2AWG
>
> 22759/16 .156 .231
>
>
> Rubber
> Welding .175 .270
> Cable
>
> So, if you use 8' of 4AWG in your RV, your weight
> delta would be 3 ounces total. If you have an
> aft mounted battery and use say, 12' of 2AWG
> then the delta is about 7 ounces total.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hurd Maj Danny A <HurdDA(at)3DIV.USMC.MIL> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
BOB,
I USED THE FOLLOWING AMPHENOL CONNECTORS ON MY ROCKET:
MS3102E22-7P (FW BULKHEAD MOUNT RECEPTACLE, ONE #0 GA PIN, BUT
ACCOMODATES 2GA ALSO) ABOUT $10
MS3106E22-7S (STARTER CABLE PLUG, ONE #0 GA SOCKET, BUT ACCOMODATES
2GA ALSO) ABOUT $20
THESE ARE SOLDER CUP TERMINATIONS, BUT NO BIG DEAL TO SOLDER WITH THE
CORRECT TOOLS.
FOR 4GA WIRE USE MS3102E16-12P FOR THE FW AND MS3106E16-12S FOR THE CABLE.
PROBABLY A COUPLE OF DOLLARS CHEAPER FOR EACH THAN THE CONNECTORS ABOVE. I
AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT ABOUT FIRE AND THE PLASTIC FEED THRU. NOT WORTH
IT IF YOU BREAK AN EXHAUST STACK OR INJECTOR LINE.
I'D RATHER BE ON THE GROUND WISHING I WAS FLYING, THAN BE FLYING AND WISH I
WAS ON THE GROUND.
DAN HURD
HARMON ROCKET II
666XX
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Firewall penetrations . . .
>
> > Try www.summitracing.com. It's part number MSD-8211 or MSD-8212.
>Those are for ignition wires. SUM-G1431 looks better.
>John Slade
Take care lest you put an opening in the firewall
that compromises the firewall's protective qualities.
The part number referenced above looks like a nylon
part that wouldn't last a
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS! |
I'm building a Lancair ES. Lancair provided 3 CPC fittings for the
electronics to pass through the firewall. They seem to be AMP #
206070-1. Should I be concerned about these melting through should I
have a fire near the firewall?
Take care lest you put an opening in the firewall
that compromises the firewall's protective qualities.
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
In a message dated 8/13/2002 9:35:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us writes:
> two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point from B&C)
> and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead pass-
> through
I am a little puzzled here as to why the different wire sizes. Aren't there
just as many electrons going out as coming back in the power circuit?
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 08/13/02 |
| From: | "Nick Hammond" <Nick.Hammond(at)saabsystems.com.au> |
Clay,
The Icom documentation can only be described as minimal, but I think they mean
one pair for power and one for ground.
Best regards,
Nick Hammond
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clay Smith" <cbsmith(at)nf.sympatico.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom Installation
>
> I'm installing an Icom IC-A200 and read in the instructions to "use 2
> pairs of #18 AWG for power and power grounding wiring" What is 2 pairs
> of 18 AWG? Would that be 2 #18 wires tied together?? Any help would be
> appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Clay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv6tc" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
I want to build the DC to DC converter from Jim Weir's May 2002 Kitplanes
article. On his web site he has the circuit board for downloading, but I
could not get it to open with Circuitmaker or ExpressPCB programs. I think
it must be the file that is corrupt. If anyone has that file and they know
it works could you send it to me? Or if there is some "trick" to getting
Circiutmaker files to open.....
Thanks,
Keith Hughes
RV-6 Finish
Denver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Paired wires in power and ground feeders |
>
>
>Clay,
>
>The Icom documentation can only be described as minimal, but I think they
>mean one pair for power and one for ground.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Nick Hammond
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Clay Smith" <cbsmith(at)nf.sympatico.ca>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom Installation
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm installing an Icom IC-A200 and read in the instructions to "use 2
> > pairs of #18 AWG for power and power grounding wiring" What is 2 pairs
> > of 18 AWG? Would that be 2 #18 wires tied together?? Any help would be
> > appreciated.
> > Thanks,
> > Clay
There has been a recent interest on the part of manufacturers
to "upgrade" the quality of the power and ground feeders in
their recommended installations. For example, if you look at the
installation drawings for the Microair 760VHF at
http://216.55.140.222/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
you will see how Microair provided TWO pins each for
power and ground. Given that their market includes
certified ships (some very old) with soggy electrical
systems (high bus impedances to the battery) I can
see where their thinking might have been guided toward
minimizing wiring impedances between the radio and
ship's power.
Since you guys are building the best airplanes to
have ever flown, the quality of your electrical system's
characteristics are head-and-shoulders above that
of most spam-cans presently flying. The harness
I supply with 706VHF uses both pins of the power
and ground connections in the plug tied
together right next to the connector in a larger-
than-necessary feedwire (the radio draws 1.8A
max . . . 22AWG is sufficient from the perspective
of pure current draw).
Two #18 wires paralleled up for a power feeder
on any panel mounted piece of avionics borders
on silly . . . but you know how bureaucrats are
. . . if a little more is good, a lot more is
better. There is no demonstrable engineering
rational for wiring as they suggest.
The radio will probably work FINE with a single
20AWG feeder into one of the two pins. If
you want to lean on a bit of redundancy with
the paralleled pins, do as I've illustrated in
the 760VHF installation manual. Paralleling
two pins doesn't do much for us . . . there
are lots of other pins that would render the
radio inop or out of spec if they opened up . . .
don't know what it buys us to have two
pins for power and ground other than to
accommodate the lower impedance, paralleled
wires . . . the benefits of which are marginal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: come on Nuckolls, is it 4AWG or 2AWG? |
>
>In a message dated 8/13/2002 9:35:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us writes:
>
> > two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point from B&C)
> > and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead pass-
> > through
>
>I am a little puzzled here as to why the different wire sizes. Aren't there
>just as many electrons going out as coming back in the power circuit?
>
>Doug Windhorn
Doug, the answer to this is in the same category of analysis
as for the double wires in radio harnesses for ground and
power (see my other post of a few minutes ago).
Heating of the wires from the perspective of CURRENT
loading is one consideration, voltage drop/bus impedance
issues are another consideration.
If your battery is close to the engine then 4AWG wire
is adequate for all fat wires. If the battery moves away,
we drop to 2AWG for worst-case voltage drop considerations.
That doesn't keep you from using 4AWG battery jumpers or
4AWG in other short runs for convenience and/or ease
of wiring. The 4AWG welding cable battery jumpers are
really nice to work with because they are so flexible.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS! |
>
>
>
>I'm building a Lancair ES. Lancair provided 3 CPC fittings for the
>electronics to pass through the firewall. They seem to be AMP #
>206070-1. Should I be concerned about these melting through should I
>have a fire near the firewall?
>
Those would bug the hell out of me! I was going to ask
Lancair about those when I was out there a few weeks
ago and forgot. I'll try to get some feedback from
them on that recommendation in my next conversation
which should happen in the next few days.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
>
>
>BOB,
>I USED THE FOLLOWING AMPHENOL CONNECTORS ON MY ROCKET:
> MS3102E22-7P (FW BULKHEAD MOUNT RECEPTACLE, ONE #0 GA PIN, BUT
>ACCOMODATES 2GA ALSO) ABOUT $10
> MS3106E22-7S (STARTER CABLE PLUG, ONE #0 GA SOCKET, BUT ACCOMODATES
>2GA ALSO) ABOUT $20
>THESE ARE SOLDER CUP TERMINATIONS, BUT NO BIG DEAL TO SOLDER WITH THE
>CORRECT TOOLS.
>
>FOR 4GA WIRE USE MS3102E16-12P FOR THE FW AND MS3106E16-12S FOR THE CABLE.
>PROBABLY A COUPLE OF DOLLARS CHEAPER FOR EACH THAN THE CONNECTORS ABOVE. I
>AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT ABOUT FIRE AND THE PLASTIC FEED THRU. NOT WORTH
>IT IF YOU BREAK AN EXHAUST STACK OR INJECTOR LINE.
>
>I'D RATHER BE ON THE GROUND WISHING I WAS FLYING, THAN BE FLYING AND WISH I
>WAS ON THE GROUND.
>
>DAN HURD
>HARMON ROCKET II
>666XX
These are certainly better than plastic of any kind but
they're die-cast or injection-molded aluminum shells.
All of our firewall penetration hardware at RAC is
stainless.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: multiple wire paths in composite aircraft |
><john@allied-computer.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>A couple years ago I did an experimental study of 22759/16-#4 vs. #4
>welding cable, #2 welding cable, and 3/4" soft copper conduit... Using
>a regulated voltage source, I measured current and voltage drop through
>various lengths of these materials, and here are some of the results:
>
>#4 22759/16: 0.137 lbs/ft, 0.245 mOhms/ft
>#4 Welding cable: 0.170 lbs/ft, 0.230 mOhms/ft
>#2 Welding cable: 0.275 lbs/ft, 0.148 mOhms/ft
>3/4" copper tubing: 0.416 lbs/ft, 0.066 mOhms/ft
>
>I've gone back and forth a bit on using the 3/4" copper for a ground
>conduit (in a Velocity), but now have decided to do it for sure, and
>running the potentially noisy stuff inside it (Alternator B-lead, mag
>lead, electronic ignition power, strobe power, fuel pump power)... I'm
>also using thickwall 5/8" teflon tubing to run additional sensor cables
>(shielded of course), it is a breeze to pull additional cables through
>either conduit!
Consider running all wires through the same copper conduit.
Otherwise, be sensitive to potential for ground loop problems
between systems that both use ground wires but live in separate
bundles.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom Installation |
>
>Clay;
>
>I have not seen an ICOM up close but I would bet that the power and ground
>connections are through an edge mount connector at the back of the circuit
>board. Often the weak point is the actual tiny metal clip metal in the
>connector and the metal foil contact on the circuit board. In other words,
>running 8-10 amps through a single contact would be a likely point for a
>failure to occur. Splitting the current supply through two contacts halves
>the current down to a more reasonable level. Running two small wires to
>handle the smaller current gives a degree redundancy back to the current
>source. Your pinout diagram will probably show two contacts in use for the
>supply and two for the ground.
>
>That how the pro who did the install on my KY-97 VHF explained it to me
>anyway.
>
>Jim Oke
>Winnipeg, MB
Does the radio draw THAT much current in transmit? If so, then
paralleling two pins on long feeders makes sense.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
>
>In a message dated 8/13/02 8:01:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
>
> > Last time I looked, weights of the two materials
> > in pounds per foot were:
> >
> > 4AWG 2AWG
> >
> > 22759/16 .156 .231
> >
> >
> > Rubber
> > Welding .175 .270
> > Cable
> >
> > So, if you use 8' of 4AWG in your RV, your weight
> > delta would be 3 ounces total. If you have an
> > aft mounted battery and use say, 12' of 2AWG
> > then the delta is about 7 ounces total.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>Thanks Bob,
>
>It appears that the welding cable is twelve percent heavier for the 4AWG and
>16 percent heavier for the 2AWG. Only a half pound of actual eight, but a
>quite large increase in weight when considered as a percentage of the whole.
>
>On top of that, I suppose that the wire itself is likely to be awfully close
>to the same weight, so the difference in the insulation's weight would likely
>be a very big percentage increase.
2AWG is 2AWG wire . . . no weight delta there. Insulation accounts
for ALL of the difference.
>Once again, a half pound isn't a lot, but those half pounds do add up to a
>considerable amount when the decision is made hundreds of times during a
>construction project. That is probably one of the reasons that so few kit
>built airplanes end up as light or lighter than the kit sellers prototype.
>If we are to gain the maximum efficiency in our designs, weight has to be a
>consideration. Combine that with the better fire propagation characteristics
>of the Tefzel and the price may not be excessive.
Hundreds of times? Name any other weight savings decision to
be made in your electrical system wherein there is more than
8 oz of delta weight to be considered in the jelly-bean parts.
I can think of perhaps a half dozen and they all run in the 2-3 oz
per case category. All totaled, I think I can save perhaps 2# total
weight difference until it comes down to heavy hardware like
starters, alternators and batteries. Outside this category,
weight savings or losses are pretty trivial.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Subaru Starter Question |
Hi Folks,
First I just want to say again what a great resource this list and Bob's articles/drawings
has become to me. I have a question about wiring my starter....checked
the archives and found some good info, then downloaded "Let's Talk About
Starter Solenoids" which really helped this rookie understand the innards
of that danged solenoid. So thanks Bob and all participants.
So here's the question. The Eggenfellner Subaru comes with a standard Subaru
starter. One big post for the battery feed (6 awg per their website) one
smaller post for the switch feed (16 awg.) The drawings and article lead me
to stay with my original desire to incorporate a starter contactor. The article
states that B&C puts in a jumper between the coil terminal and contactor
main terminal of its starters Is there any reason to not do that on this starter?
I assume the jumper wire would be the same size as the switch wire. The
switch wire would then connect to the starter contactor as per diagrams in
App. Z. Thanks for any help.
Bill Yamokoski, N4970Y
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Avionics Systems" <hk53(at)his.com> |
| Subject: | Navigation Select Switch |
_______
Larry - You are correct that the 196 doesn't output the ARINC 429 data
needed to provide GPSS information to the Tru-Trak, but it does output
RS-232 data that will allow the autopilot to fly GPS track. This means
you can track a courseline, but it won't intercept a new courseline,
such as a new waypoint in your flightplan.
If you have a Tru-Trak Digiflight or Digitrack system, you won't be able
to couple in the SL-30 analog nav deviation information. If you have a
DFC system, you can put in the analog deviation info.
>This sounds similar to a situation I have. I have the SL30, MD 200,
TruTrak AP
>and Garmin 196 GPS. TruTrak said that the 196 could provide current
track info
>to the AP, but not the ARNIC (?) data needed to provide multi-leg
guidance --
>IE GPSS. So the best I can do is look at the GPS see on course is
315`, for
>example, manually dial that into the TruTrak and tell in to head in
that
>direction. Effective, but not very efficent considering the equipement
I have.
>What would you guys do if you had these components to maximize their
>usefulness?
>Thanks,
>Larry
>BowenAero.com
Alfred - This would be the most sensible setup with the equipment you
have. A double pole switch will work fine for this application. Get a
good quality switch from Bob Nuckolls' web site or an electronic supply
house.
>David,
>Thank you very much for your helpful explanation! I have the Smart
Coupler to use the Garmin 195 data for the Navaid >autopilot. Following
the KISS principle, I think I will hook up the MD-200 only to the SL-30
and not to the Garmin. The >Navaid will be fed either with GPS data via
the Smart Coupler or with Nav data from the SL-30. A double pole switch
>should allow to choose one of the two sources. Or do you see any
problems with this concept?
>Alfred Buess
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Avionics Systems" <hk53(at)his.com> |
| Subject: | Navigation Select Switch |
_______
Larry - You are correct that the 196 doesn't output the ARINC 429 data
needed to provide GPSS information to the Tru-Trak, but it does output
RS-232 data that will allow the autopilot to fly GPS track. This means
you can track a courseline, but it won't intercept a new courseline,
such as a new waypoint in your flightplan.
If you have a Tru-Trak Digiflight or Digitrack system, you won't be able
to couple in the SL-30 analog nav deviation information. If you have a
DFC system, you can put in the analog deviation info.
>This sounds similar to a situation I have. I have the SL30, MD 200,
TruTrak AP
>and Garmin 196 GPS. TruTrak said that the 196 could provide current
track info
>to the AP, but not the ARNIC (?) data needed to provide multi-leg
guidance --
>IE GPSS. So the best I can do is look at the GPS see on course is
315`, for
>example, manually dial that into the TruTrak and tell in to head in
that
>direction. Effective, but not very efficent considering the equipement
I have.
>What would you guys do if you had these components to maximize their
>usefulness?
>Thanks,
>Larry
>BowenAero.com
Alfred - This would be the most sensible setup with the equipment you
have. A double pole switch will work fine for this application. Get a
good quality switch from Bob Nuckolls' web site or an electronic supply
house.
>David,
>Thank you very much for your helpful explanation! I have the Smart
Coupler to use the Garmin 195 data for the Navaid >autopilot. Following
the KISS principle, I think I will hook up the MD-200 only to the SL-30
and not to the Garmin. The >Navaid will be fed either with GPS data via
the Smart Coupler or with Nav data from the SL-30. A double pole switch
>should allow to choose one of the two sources. Or do you see any
problems with this concept?
>Alfred Buess
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Paired wires in power and ground feeders |
In a message dated 8/14/02 10:30:09 AM Central Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> Two #18 wires paralleled up for a power feeder
> on any panel mounted piece of avionics borders
> on silly . . . but you know how bureaucrats are
> . . . if a little more is good, a lot more is
> better. There is no demonstrable engineering
> rational for wiring as they suggest.
>
Right On Bob!
Fits right in with my campaign to keep it light.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Bowen <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
I have the DigiFlight 200VS. So the SL30 can be coupled to the AP using a DFC?
What's a DFC?
Thanks,
-Larry
--- Avionics Systems wrote:
>
> _______
>
> Larry - You are correct that the 196 doesn't output the ARINC 429 data
> needed to provide GPSS information to the Tru-Trak, but it does output
> RS-232 data that will allow the autopilot to fly GPS track. This means
> you can track a courseline, but it won't intercept a new courseline,
> such as a new waypoint in your flightplan.
>
> If you have a Tru-Trak Digiflight or Digitrack system, you won't be able
> to couple in the SL-30 analog nav deviation information. If you have a
> DFC system, you can put in the analog deviation info.
>
> >This sounds similar to a situation I have. I have the SL30, MD 200,
> TruTrak AP
> >and Garmin 196 GPS. TruTrak said that the 196 could provide current
> track info
> >to the AP, but not the ARNIC (?) data needed to provide multi-leg
> guidance --
> >IE GPSS. So the best I can do is look at the GPS see on course is
> 315`, for
> >example, manually dial that into the TruTrak and tell in to head in
> that
> >direction. Effective, but not very efficent considering the equipement
> I have.
>
>
> >What would you guys do if you had these components to maximize their
> >usefulness?
>
> >Thanks,
>
> >Larry
> >BowenAero.com
=====
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
TruTraks original full featured line of autopilots are the "DFC" line, i.e..
the DFC- 200, DFC-250 and DFC-300
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsproducts.html.
Ross Mickey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bowen" <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com>
> I have the DigiFlight 200VS. So the SL30 can be coupled to the AP using a
DFC?
> What's a DFC?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
RAC? Where are you suggesting we get this hardware?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Firewall penetrations . . .
>
>
>BOB,
>I USED THE FOLLOWING AMPHENOL CONNECTORS ON MY ROCKET:
> MS3102E22-7P (FW BULKHEAD MOUNT RECEPTACLE, ONE #0 GA PIN, BUT
>ACCOMODATES 2GA ALSO) ABOUT $10
> MS3106E22-7S (STARTER CABLE PLUG, ONE #0 GA SOCKET, BUT
ACCOMODATES
>2GA ALSO) ABOUT $20
>THESE ARE SOLDER CUP TERMINATIONS, BUT NO BIG DEAL TO SOLDER WITH THE
>CORRECT TOOLS.
>
>FOR 4GA WIRE USE MS3102E16-12P FOR THE FW AND MS3106E16-12S FOR THE
CABLE.
>PROBABLY A COUPLE OF DOLLARS CHEAPER FOR EACH THAN THE CONNECTORS
ABOVE. I
>AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT ABOUT FIRE AND THE PLASTIC FEED THRU. NOT
WORTH
>IT IF YOU BREAK AN EXHAUST STACK OR INJECTOR LINE.
>
>I'D RATHER BE ON THE GROUND WISHING I WAS FLYING, THAN BE FLYING AND
WISH I
>WAS ON THE GROUND.
>
>DAN HURD
>HARMON ROCKET II
>666XX
These are certainly better than plastic of any kind but
they're die-cast or injection-molded aluminum shells.
All of our firewall penetration hardware at RAC is
stainless.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "texasquadj(at)prodigy.net" <texasquadj(at)Prodigy.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS! |
Bob,
What is your recommendation for anyone who has to penetrate the firewall
with a large or small wire?
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:40:53 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS!
>
>
>
>I'm building a Lancair ES. Lancair provided 3 CPC fittings for the
>electronics to pass through the firewall. They seem to be AMP #
>206070-1. Should I be concerned about these melting through should I
>have a fire near the firewall?
>
Those would bug the hell out of me! I was going to ask
Lancair about those when I was out there a few weeks
ago and forgot. I'll try to get some feedback from
them on that recommendation in my next conversation
which should happen in the next few days.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE:attitude reference |
I just saw an ad for an attitude reference, stabilization, and navigation
module (GPS and INS ?) from BEI Technologies, Inc. I don't know anything
about them, but their web address is www.systron.com. I going to check it out
now.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "texasquadj(at)prodigy.net" <texasquadj(at)Prodigy.net> |
I have an opportunity to get some used MIL SPEC circuit breakers to put in
my plane for free. I had been planning all along to install a fuse block,
but when this opportunity presented its self I thought I should atleast
consider it. Safety is my occupation, so needless to say, I do not want to
put my life or my passengers life in jeopary just to save a few dollars
(maybe $50). Is there a reliable way to test a CB? I would imagine that I
could easily force them to pop, but I am not sure what that would tell me.
Then I thought I could slap together a circut that I could apply a load to
that would have an amp meter and a potentiometer. I could vary the output
of the load until the CB pops. The largest CB that I would probably have
in my system would be 10 amps.
Am I wasting my time here? Is this really necessary?
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Tefzel vs Welding Wire |
Bob:
From a human's survival point of view. In case of a fire, is Tefzel
insulation safer than welding cable insulation?
Do you know of any references on the burning byproducts of Tefzel and/or
welding cable insulation?
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6 Still "finalizing wiring". Got my wings on yesterday!)
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom Installation |
>
My ICOM a200 draws 2.6 amps in transmit, not 6 or 8!
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Connecting a switch |
I would like to know if it matters where we connect
the 12V and the load on a SPST switch.
I used to connect the 12V on the center contact, but
the lighted switches I initially installed mandated
connecting the 12V on the lower contact and the load
on the center contact (so the ground could be attached
to the upper contact for the light).
I would like to change the switches this evening for
the ones I just received from B&C. Can I use the same
wiring configuration (12V on lower contact and load on
the center one)? I would like this because this way,
there woul'dnt be voltage on the upper contact when
the switch is turned off (these are really SPDT
switches sold as SPST).
Thanks for the prompt reply!
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions |
In a message dated 8/14/02 10:52:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> Hundreds of times? Name any other weight savings decision to
> be made in your electrical system wherein there is more than
> 8 oz of delta weight to be considered in the jelly-bean parts.
>
Good Afternoon Bob,
It isn't just saving weight in the electrical system. Weight saving needs to
be a mind set.
Every decision made in the construction of the airplane should be made with
at least some thought to the potential for weight savings.
A large part of Steve Wittman's genius was in seeing a way to make things
simpler and lighter.
You may not always agree with the decisions he made, but I think you will
admit that he tried to make everything he touched as light and as simple as
possible.
Another example is the Beech Bonanza. Saving weight was a fetish on the
original machine. They used a combination fuel pump, fuel selector and fuel
drain sump to save weight. The landing gear retract mechanism used one
actuator and lots of leverage to save weight. Such examples abound
throughout the airplane. When the first ones were delivered, the empty
weight was 1550 pounds. Approximately two hundred pounds lighter than any of
the competitors of the day.
Using a number eight screw where a number six would suffice or a
three-eighths length where only a five-sixteenth would be needed may not seem
like much, but it all adds up. The best performers are the lightest of the
fleet, all other factors being equal. It may cost a bit more, but savings in
fuel and efficiency pay off fast.
I urge everyone to think like a missile engineer. Every ounce is important.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom Installation |
Well, my King KY-97A called for a 10 amp supply breaker although I have to
think that 1-2 amps receive and 4-6 amp transmit is about all it will use. A
100% cushion for transients, etc. ?
As it was explained to me, the point about using two pins for power is to
reduce the current flow through the edge connector contact as this will
typically be the weakest point in the run due the potentially small contact
area, possible bit of surface oxidation, etc. Wire sizing regarding voltage
drop is a non-issue and easily dealt with.
Jim Oke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom Installation
>
> >
> >Clay;
> >
> >I have not seen an ICOM up close but I would bet that the power and
ground
> >connections are through an edge mount connector at the back of the
circuit
> >board. Often the weak point is the actual tiny metal clip metal in the
> >connector and the metal foil contact on the circuit board. In other
words,
> >running 8-10 amps through a single contact would be a likely point for a
> >failure to occur. Splitting the current supply through two contacts
halves
> >the current down to a more reasonable level. Running two small wires to
> >handle the smaller current gives a degree redundancy back to the current
> >source. Your pinout diagram will probably show two contacts in use for
the
> >supply and two for the ground.
> >
> >That how the pro who did the install on my KY-97 VHF explained it to me
> >anyway.
> >
> >Jim Oke
> >Winnipeg, MB
>
> Does the radio draw THAT much current in transmit? If so, then
> paralleling two pins on long feeders makes sense.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Hellroaring Tech |
Bob:
Are you familiar with Hellroaring Tech's stuff?
http://www.hellroaring.com/
They have a line of battery isolator/combiners, solid state relays
and transit voltage suppressors that look pretty slick to my
electrically challenged eye. They appear to do everything but add
lift.
Comments please.
Thanks
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:attitude reference |
KahnSG(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> I just saw an ad for an attitude reference, stabilization, and navigation
> module (GPS and INS ?) from BEI Technologies, Inc. I don't know anything
> about them, but their web address is www.systron.com. I going to check it out
> now.
>
> Steve
This is the manufacturer of the sensors used in the Blue Mountain
EFIS/One and EFIS/Lite; I believe BMA uses the AQRS model sensors.
Sam Buchanan
"The RV Journal" http://thervjournal.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tefzel vs Welding Wire |
>
>
>Bob:
> From a human's survival point of view. In case of a fire, is Tefzel
>insulation safer than welding cable insulation?
>Do you know of any references on the burning byproducts of Tefzel and/or
>welding cable insulation?
The smoke from either wire is VERY unpleasant and even
toxic. If you're really concerned about fire effects,
locomotive wire insulated with Hypolon was developed
for heavy current machines operated in close proximity
to humans . . . also very unpleasant smoke but less
toxic. Best thing to do is not have a fire.
200 ton flying hotels with 500 folks aboard can justifiably
"worry" about fires that might burn in areas not occupied
by people and/or critical equipment were the best quality
smoke is desirable. I suspect that if you have a fire on
board a 2-4 place boogity-boogity, smoke from your wires is the
least of your concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting S700-1-3 switches |
>
>I would like to know if it matters where we connect
>the 12V and the load on a SPST switch.
>
>I used to connect the 12V on the center contact, but
>the lighted switches I initially installed mandated
>connecting the 12V on the lower contact and the load
>on the center contact (so the ground could be attached
>to the upper contact for the light).
You can wire them any way you wish to achieve
the desired functionality.
>I would like to change the switches this evening for
>the ones I just received from B&C. Can I use the same
>wiring configuration (12V on lower contact and load on
>the center one)? I would like this because this way,
>there woul'dnt be voltage on the upper contact when
>the switch is turned off (these are really SPDT
>switches sold as SPST).
>
>Thanks for the prompt reply!
No problem. I double checked the switch
description on our website just to be sure
and do find that the S700-1-3 switch is
listed as
P/N S700-1-3 Single Pole, Two Position, ON-ON Switch
We do suggest this switch for single-ON applications
since it's the same price as a true single position
switch and it avoids stocking two different parts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: come on Nuckolls, is it 4AWG or 2AWG? |
In a message dated 8/14/2002 8:41:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> > > two long 4 awg battery ground wires (to firewall grounding point from
B&C)
>
> > > and a fat 2 awg wire from battery contactor to firewall bulkhead pass-
> > > through
> >
> >I am a little puzzled here as to why the different wire sizes. Aren't
> there
> >just as many electrons going out as coming back in the power circuit?
> >
> >Doug Windhorn
>
> Doug, the answer to this is in the same category of analysis
> as for the double wires in radio harnesses for ground and
> power (see my other post of a few minutes ago).
>
> Heating of the wires from the perspective of CURRENT
> loading is one consideration, voltage drop/bus impedance
> issues are another consideration.
>
> If your battery is close to the engine then 4AWG wire
> is adequate for all fat wires. If the battery moves away,
> we drop to 2AWG for worst-case voltage drop considerations.
> That doesn't keep you from using 4AWG battery jumpers or
> 4AWG in other short runs for convenience and/or ease
> of wiring. The 4AWG welding cable battery jumpers are
> really nice to work with because they are so flexible.
Bob,
Thanks for the response. I understand the current / resistance heating issue
and resultant voltage drop, and need for larger wire over longer distances to
mitigate this. I am using this understanding to oversize some longer runs
(wingtip lights, etc.) a size or two.
But I understood the original post to say they would run TWO #4 ground wires
from the battery to the firewall ground post, and a #2 positive wire from the
contactor post to the firewall passthrough (i.e., same distance for both
assuming the contactor is in close proximity to the battery where short #4
jumpers make a lot of sense). That is what I was addressing
I am either missing something in understanding the configuration or what was
said, or someone is doing something I believe to be a little odd and would
like to know the rationale. Running two wires in parallel does not make a
lot of sense to me either (the VAL dimmer module I am using uses parallel
ground and power wires, but the possible load here is 5A through D-sub
connectors with 20 ga. wire - still doable with a single wire for the short
distances involved).
Regards, Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Another Try at Subaru Starter |
I sent this yesterday and got no reply...an unlikely event! Checked the archive
to see if it went through and only two sentences showed up. So here it is
again. And again, thanks for the help
Hi Folks,
First I just want to say again what a great resource this list and Bob's articles/drawings
has become to me. I have a question about wiring my starter....checked
the archives and found some good info, then downloaded "Let's Talk About
Starter Solenoids" which really helped this rookie understand the innards
of that danged solenoid. So thanks Bob and all participants.
So here's the question. The Eggenfellner Subaru comes with a standard Subaru
starter. One big post for the battery feed (6 awg per their website) one
smaller post for the switch feed (16 awg.) The drawings and article lead me
to stay with my original desire to incorporate a starter contactor. The article
states that B&C puts in a jumper between the coil terminal and contactor
main terminal of its starters Is there any reason to not do that on this starter?
I assume the jumper wire would be the same size as the switch wire. The
switch wire would then connect to the starter contactor as per diagrams in
App. Z. Thanks for any help.
Bill Yamokoski, N4970Y
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Re: come on Nuckolls, is it 4AWG or |
2AWG?
I started all this :) The reason I wrote 4 awg for the battery grounds and 2
awg for the battery contactor-to-firewall is because that's what I see on Bob's
Figure Z-2, which was my starting point for doing my own wiring diagram. Sorry
if I wasn't clear that I'm using two batteries. Two grounds from one battery
would be a tad odd I guess. Therein lies the sum total of my expertise
in the field of electrons.
Bill Yamokoski
asker of extremely simplistic questions. It's a dirty job but someone's got to
do it :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting S700-1-3 switches |
Hello Bob and other Listers:
> >> .....I would like this because this way, there woul'dnt be voltage on
the upper contact when the switch is turned off (these are really SPDT
switches sold as SPST). .... <<<
> No problem. I double checked the switch description on our website
just to be sure and do find that the S700-1-3 switch is listed as P/N
S700-1-3 Single Pole, Two Position, ON-ON Switch
We do suggest this switch for single-ON applications since it's the same
price as a true single position switch and it avoids stocking two
different parts. <
I ordered Bob's switches and plan to use them as SPST switches (on-off) as
he suggested. Although this appears to work technically I have been
concerned about the "non-standard" approach. Other people may operate the
plane - or have to perform maintenance. I am planning to use the Top
contact for 12V and the Centre contact for the application. I was thinking
about putting a piece of black shrink wrap over the "unused" contact to make
it obvious/safer - - a little paranoid, perhaps but seems logical.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 30% Complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting S700-1-3 switches |
In a message dated 8/15/02 9:50:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca writes:
> I am planning to use the Top
> contact for 12V and the Centre contact for the application. I was thinking
> about putting a piece of black shrink wrap over the "unused" contact to
> make
> it obvious/safer - - a little paranoid, perhaps but seems logical.
> Ernest Kells
Good Morning Ernest,
This is far out of my area of expertise, but here goes anyhow!
I might do the same, but is it really necessary? When the switch is in the
position that would make the unused contact live, the only place anything
could go would be to the device being operated. The most likely thing to
contact an unprotected soldering tab would something which provided a ground.
Very few devices would suffer any harm if their power input wiring was
switched to ground. If a hot wire accidentally contacted the unprotected
tab, all it would do is power up the device. The above would only happen if
the switch was in the "OFF" position.
If the switch were in the "ON" position, contact with either a ground or a
hot source would have no effect whatsoever.
I think your choice of contacts is fine and covering the unused terminal is
probably worth the weight it takes, but the necessity to do so is probably
pretty minuscule.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting S700-1-3 switches |
You mean the bottom contact for 12V (assuming that you
flip the switch up to turn it on). That's how I
decided to do it. And this way, the shrink wrap on
the third contact (the up one) is not required at all.
Michel
--- Ernest Kells wrote:
>I am
> planning to use the Top
> contact for 12V and the Centre contact for the
> application. I was thinking
> about putting a piece of black shrink wrap over the
> "unused" contact to make
> it obvious/safer - - a little paranoid, perhaps but
> seems logical.
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Check out Aerocomp, Inc. |
Click here: Aerocomp, Inc. Composite
Kitplane Manufacture
Check this site out.
They use the Walter M601D Turboprop on some of their models.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hellroaring Tech |
>
>Bob:
>
>Are you familiar with Hellroaring Tech's stuff?
>
>http://www.hellroaring.com/
>
>They have a line of battery isolator/combiners, solid state relays
>and transit voltage suppressors that look pretty slick to my
>electrically challenged eye. They appear to do everything but add
>lift.
>
>Comments please.
>
>Thanks
Somebody sent me the link to these folks some months ago.
They're doing some nice work that takes advantage of ever
cheaper, emerging technologies for handling high current
loads with solid state devices. The tasks they've addressed
with their product line are not very applicable to airplanes
for what's on their website now. We're very close to offering
a MINIATURE (1.5" x 1" x .7"), solid state DC relay that
will plug into a D-sub connector and be rated at 10A.
First production prototypes will go into a customer's
airplane in a few weeks. After we've had a chance to
evaluate the feedback and make any necessary or wise
improvements, the gizmo will be offered to the OBAM
industry at large from our website.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: come on Nuckolls, is it 4AWG or 2AWG? |
>
>
>I started all this :) The reason I wrote 4 awg for the battery grounds
>and 2 awg for the battery contactor-to-firewall is because that's what I
>see on Bob's Figure Z-2, which was my starting point for doing my own
>wiring diagram. Sorry if I wasn't clear that I'm using two
>batteries. Two grounds from one battery would be a tad odd I
>guess. Therein lies the sum total of my expertise in the field of
>electrons.
>Bill Yamokoski
Very good. I was a bit confused as to the source of the
perplexing information. Your follow-up was helpful
>asker of extremely simplistic questions. It's a dirty job but someone's
>got to do it :)
And I thank you for taking this task on with admirable
skill and enthusiasm . . . If nobody asks the questions,
we don't know what answers need to be published.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings |
>
>In a message dated 8/14/02 10:52:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
>
> > Hundreds of times? Name any other weight savings decision to
> > be made in your electrical system wherein there is more than
> > 8 oz of delta weight to be considered in the jelly-bean parts.
> >
>
>Good Afternoon Bob,
>
>It isn't just saving weight in the electrical system. Weight saving needs to
>be a mind set.
>
>Every decision made in the construction of the airplane should be made with
>at least some thought to the potential for weight savings.
>
>A large part of Steve Wittman's genius was in seeing a way to make things
>simpler and lighter.
>
>You may not always agree with the decisions he made, but I think you will
>admit that he tried to make everything he touched as light and as simple as
>possible.
>
>Another example is the Beech Bonanza. Saving weight was a fetish on the
>original machine. They used a combination fuel pump, fuel selector and fuel
>drain sump to save weight. The landing gear retract mechanism used one
>actuator and lots of leverage to save weight. Such examples abound
>throughout the airplane. When the first ones were delivered, the empty
>weight was 1550 pounds. Approximately two hundred pounds lighter than any of
>the competitors of the day.
>
>Using a number eight screw where a number six would suffice or a
>three-eighths length where only a five-sixteenth would be needed may not seem
>like much, but it all adds up. The best performers are the lightest of the
>fleet, all other factors being equal. It may cost a bit more, but savings in
>fuel and efficiency pay off fast.
>
>I urge everyone to think like a missile engineer. Every ounce is important.
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
Everything you say is absolutely correct. Probably the ultimate study in
wight control was done by the Rutan brothers in construction of the
Voyager. With the original engines installed, it took about 5# of fuel
to carry 1# of airplane around the world. 1# reduction in empty weight
was a 6# reduction in gross weight at takeoff. They took our LR-3
regulators out of their housings and drilled the top plate full of
holes to save grams . . .
But putting the conversation in perspective, there are few things
a OBAM aircraft builder can do to make substantial savings in
weight even if one goes into the details you mentioned. Even then,
many decisions are driven more by costs than by goals for efficiency.
One has to decide whether a B&C lightweight will replace the
Prestolite Pig, whether the best Hawker RG battery will replace the
garden tractor flooded battery, whether or not the vacuum system
can come out in favor of all-electric design.
The decisions that result in BIG increments of weight savings
are pretty easy for most builders. They either have the dollars
to take advantage of the leading edge technologies or they don't.
The decisions for tiny increments are not very numerous.
If you build to the kit instructions and materials supplied,
the airframe and engine weights are going to be very close
across the spectrum of airplanes. This leaves us with decisions
similar to "how much weight penalty we're willing to accept for tefzel
versus welding cable rubber" . . . and there are not many
of those nor are the outcomes very significant in the overall
performance of the finished product.
Yes, the lighter the better but the bottom line is that most
builder's decisions are already driven by concerns other than
a quest for the ultimate design which tend to bury most
materials selection decisions down into the noise.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>I have an opportunity to get some used MIL SPEC circuit breakers to put in
>my plane for free. I had been planning all along to install a fuse block,
>but when this opportunity presented its self I thought I should atleast
>consider it. Safety is my occupation, so needless to say, I do not want to
>put my life or my passengers life in jeopary just to save a few dollars
>(maybe $50). Is there a reliable way to test a CB? I would imagine that I
>could easily force them to pop, but I am not sure what that would tell me.
>
>Then I thought I could slap together a circut that I could apply a load to
>that would have an amp meter and a potentiometer. I could vary the output
>of the load until the CB pops. The largest CB that I would probably have
>in my system would be 10 amps.
>
>Am I wasting my time here? Is this really necessary?
>
>Jeff
If they're a speced device, I wouldn't bother to test them other
than to see that they pop. Hook each one in series with about
a 10' piece of 18AWG wire and then hook the combination across
a car battery. If the breaker opens, it's probably just fine.
Having said that, I don't believe there is a single valid
argument in breakers vs. fuses that have to do with anyone's
safety . . . your's or your passenger's.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Everything you say is absolutely correct. Probably the ultimate study in
> wight control was done by the Rutan brothers in construction of the
> Voyager. With the original engines installed, it took about 5# of fuel
> to carry 1# of airplane around the world. 1# reduction in empty weight
> was a 6# reduction in gross weight at takeoff. They took our LR-3
> regulators out of their housings and drilled the top plate full of
> holes to save grams . . .
>
*** I read an article by Wolfgang Langewiesche where he flew a Cessna 140
around Africa. After getting a letter from the CAA authorizing a 100-pound
gross weight increase, he ruthlessly pruned his personal stuff for the trip,
going so far as to cut the handle off his toothbrush!
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings |
There is no need to belabor this poor horse much longer and, yes, the
desirable effects of building lighter on aerodynamic efficiency are very
well know be they on the Rutan Voyager or a garden variety Cessna 140.
However, surely the cost/benefit ratio depends on all parts of the airplane
and the type (and type of construction) of the airplane. My project is an
RV-6A and early on I went to all the weight saving ideas with lightening
holes drilled and smoothed, etc. wherever possible. Well and good and I have
a pile of round aluminum sheet discs of scrap to prove it. These total maybe
5 pounds, max, although I have not weighed them. I though I was a champ and
had the gods on my side until I got the finishing kit and picked up one of
Van's RV-6A steel rod gear legs - at a guess 35 pounds, min. (Then, to make
things worse, I dropped one on my toe one evening, hurt like $%
&#). Made my
hours of slaving away to save a few pounds of aluminum look a bit silly.
The moral of this story is that weight reduction requires an "overall system
approach" to use the high price engineering text wording. Worrying about 6
oz of rubber vs. Tefzel insulation while happily sticking Van's HEAVY gear
legs on my airplane would be foolish. Better to seek a way of reducing the
gear leg weight first, then go after the trivial bits. Of course, not using
Van's stock gear legs would take time and money to design and fabricate
replacements so that's why most of us don't bother.
Jim Oke
RV-6A (wired, getting ready to paint !)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings
>
> >
> >In a message dated 8/14/02 10:52:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
> >bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> >
> >
> > > Hundreds of times? Name any other weight savings decision to
> > > be made in your electrical system wherein there is more than
> > > 8 oz of delta weight to be considered in the jelly-bean parts.
> > >
> >
> >Good Afternoon Bob,
> >
> >It isn't just saving weight in the electrical system. Weight saving
needs to
> >be a mind set.
> >
> >Every decision made in the construction of the airplane should be made
with
> >at least some thought to the potential for weight savings.
> >
> >A large part of Steve Wittman's genius was in seeing a way to make things
> >simpler and lighter.
> >
> >You may not always agree with the decisions he made, but I think you will
> >admit that he tried to make everything he touched as light and as simple
as
> >possible.
> >
> >Another example is the Beech Bonanza. Saving weight was a fetish on the
> >original machine. They used a combination fuel pump, fuel selector and
fuel
> >drain sump to save weight. The landing gear retract mechanism used one
> >actuator and lots of leverage to save weight. Such examples abound
> >throughout the airplane. When the first ones were delivered, the empty
> >weight was 1550 pounds. Approximately two hundred pounds lighter than
any of
> >the competitors of the day.
> >
> >Using a number eight screw where a number six would suffice or a
> >three-eighths length where only a five-sixteenth would be needed may not
seem
> >like much, but it all adds up. The best performers are the lightest of
the
> >fleet, all other factors being equal. It may cost a bit more, but
savings in
> >fuel and efficiency pay off fast.
> >
> >I urge everyone to think like a missile engineer. Every ounce is
important.
> >
> >Happy Skies,
> >
> >Old Bob
>
> Everything you say is absolutely correct. Probably the ultimate study
in
> wight control was done by the Rutan brothers in construction of the
> Voyager. With the original engines installed, it took about 5# of fuel
> to carry 1# of airplane around the world. 1# reduction in empty weight
> was a 6# reduction in gross weight at takeoff. They took our LR-3
> regulators out of their housings and drilled the top plate full of
> holes to save grams . . .
>
> But putting the conversation in perspective, there are few things
> a OBAM aircraft builder can do to make substantial savings in
> weight even if one goes into the details you mentioned. Even then,
> many decisions are driven more by costs than by goals for efficiency.
> One has to decide whether a B&C lightweight will replace the
> Prestolite Pig, whether the best Hawker RG battery will replace the
> garden tractor flooded battery, whether or not the vacuum system
> can come out in favor of all-electric design.
>
> The decisions that result in BIG increments of weight savings
> are pretty easy for most builders. They either have the dollars
> to take advantage of the leading edge technologies or they don't.
> The decisions for tiny increments are not very numerous.
> If you build to the kit instructions and materials supplied,
> the airframe and engine weights are going to be very close
> across the spectrum of airplanes. This leaves us with decisions
> similar to "how much weight penalty we're willing to accept for tefzel
> versus welding cable rubber" . . . and there are not many
> of those nor are the outcomes very significant in the overall
> performance of the finished product.
>
> Yes, the lighter the better but the bottom line is that most
> builder's decisions are already driven by concerns other than
> a quest for the ultimate design which tend to bury most
> materials selection decisions down into the noise.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv6tc" <rv6tc(at)earthlink.net> |
Does anyone know how to make a PC board using Circuitmaker? I'm trying to
make one from a schematic, and this is not intuitively obvious. The help
files are worse. I'm assuming Traxmaker is built in, as I can't find
anything like Traxmaker to download from their website.
Thanks,
Keith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "texasquadj(at)prodigy.net" <texasquadj(at)Prodigy.net> |
Thanks Bob. My comment about safety was geared towards not using a
possibly decective part (the free CB's) to save a few dollars and
jeopardize my safety.
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:33:10 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CB Testing
>
>
>I have an opportunity to get some used MIL SPEC circuit breakers to put in
>my plane for free. I had been planning all along to install a fuse block,
>but when this opportunity presented its self I thought I should atleast
>consider it. Safety is my occupation, so needless to say, I do not want to
>put my life or my passengers life in jeopary just to save a few dollars
>(maybe $50). Is there a reliable way to test a CB? I would imagine that I
>could easily force them to pop, but I am not sure what that would tell me.
>
>Then I thought I could slap together a circut that I could apply a load to
>that would have an amp meter and a potentiometer. I could vary the output
>of the load until the CB pops. The largest CB that I would probably have
>in my system would be 10 amps.
>
>Am I wasting my time here? Is this really necessary?
>
>Jeff
If they're a speced device, I wouldn't bother to test them other
than to see that they pop. Hook each one in series with about
a 10' piece of 18AWG wire and then hook the combination across
a car battery. If the breaker opens, it's probably just fine.
Having said that, I don't believe there is a single valid
argument in breakers vs. fuses that have to do with anyone's
safety . . . your's or your passenger's.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "texasquadj(at)prodigy.net" <texasquadj(at)Prodigy.net> |
Keith,
I downloaded a 30 day trial version of a program called SmartDraw from
www.smartdrawn.com
It is very easy to use and even allows you to save the files as jpg image
files.
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: rv6tc rv6tc(at)earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:29:11 -0600
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuitmaker
Does anyone know how to make a PC board using Circuitmaker? I'm trying to
make one from a schematic, and this is not intuitively obvious. The help
files are worse. I'm assuming Traxmaker is built in, as I can't find
anything like Traxmaker to download from their website.
Thanks,
Keith
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Starter contactor wirings |
Bob,
There's a thread in the Canard forum that I'd very much like you're take
on...
http://h10006.racknine.com/~admin25/forum//showthread.php?s=&threadid=47
I'm about to do this wiring, and what Jack says makes sense (at least to
me).
Regards,
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Starter contactor wirings |
I think the problem with the scenario that Jack is proposing has been
addressed here just a few days ago....what happens if the starter
contactor sticks.....that's (I think) why Bob has designed it the way it
is.
Also, I'm sure those contactors will handle the starting current,
otherwise it wouldn't be designed that way.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Slade
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter contactor wirings
Bob,
There's a thread in the Canard forum that I'd very much like you're take
on...
http://h10006.racknine.com/~admin25/forum//showthread.php?s=&threadid=47
I'm about to do this wiring, and what Jack says makes sense (at least to
me).
Regards,
John Slade
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor wirings |
>
>Bob,
>There's a thread in the Canard forum that I'd very much like you're take
>on...
>
>http://h10006.racknine.com/~admin25/forum//showthread.php?s=&threadid=47
>
>I'm about to do this wiring, and what Jack says makes sense (at least to
>me).
>Regards,
>John Slade
Okay, here 'tis . . .
I am posting on this subject to get it started and also to get some
onions.
Several builders have ask me this question about the type and
connections of the starting relay and I have found
that some "experts" are giving answers that I don't agree with.
The first is that it is ok to route the starting current through
the master power relay.
I disagree with this because the starting current can exceed the
relay rating.
True but not significant. The battery contactor we sell has
a SWITCHING rating of 70A . . . far less than the 150-250A
typical cranking current. HOWEVER, when this current hits
the battery contactor, it is already closed and stable.
No big deal. This particular style of contactor has been used
on tens of thousands of spam cans for over 50 years . . .
I've seen a LOT of starter contactors weld and I've seen
a few very tired battery contactors burn but only after a
long and practical service life.
The starter contactor is a different breed of cat because
it SWITCHES starter current. This is why, in spite of it's
more robust design and intermittent duty capabilities, it's
still the contactor most likely to stick in your airplane.
Also the staring current drain may be so high that the
battery voltage drops below the hold in voltage of the master relay.
Not if you have a properly maintained battery, especially
an RG battery. The same effect can be noted in the starter
contactor itself . . . many a welding scenario was triggered
by trying to crank an engine from a battery that was undercharged
or way beyond its practical service life. I'm sure everyone on
the AeroElectric-List is going to take care of their batteries
and replace them long before cranking issues arise.
In this case the master relay will drop out under high current and ARC
the contacts. The starting relay should have it's own feed from the
battery.
The only time I heard of an OBAM owner coming close to
setting his airplane on fire was with exactly the architecture
described above. When the starter contactor DID stick, the
pilot had to shut down what he could, climb out of the cockpit,
remove the cowl from an engine that was "running" at about
200 RPM, and use a wrench to disconnect a wire from the
contactor. Amazingly enough, he DID get the wire unhooked
before the very robust little battery ran down completely.
None the less, it melted a hole in the side of the battery
case and made the starter smell really bad.
The master relay feed should have a high current "fuse of last resort
(50 amp)" in it's primary feed.
No justification for this at all. These kinds of things
have been hashed and re-hashed for decades. Show me any
such fuse in a spam can . . . you can bet that if there
was event the hint of a valid 'fear factor' the folks
down at the FAA would have thought about it and issued
some new edict. They may do that yet. In the mean time,
hundreds of millions of flight hours of flight history
in little airplanes demonstrated no value in fusing fat
feedwires.
The second is that it is ok to mount the battery on one side of
the firewall and the staring relay on the other side.
The starting relay should be very close to the battery and on the same
side of the firewall with the battery. Never run a unfused primary lead
through the firewall. It is ok to run the heavy wire from the starting relay
through the firewall because it is only hot during starting.
Hot fat wires run through all kinds of sheet metal partitions
in airplanes of all types. Some are fused but in small airplanes
most are not and this has been demonstrated to not be a safety
issue. There are perfectly good ways to handle firewall or
other panel penetrations in a manner which are as reliable as
your wing attach bolts. I.e., do it right and don't worry
about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuitmaker |
>
>Does anyone know how to make a PC board using Circuitmaker? I'm trying to
>make one from a schematic, and this is not intuitively obvious. The help
>files are worse. I'm assuming Traxmaker is built in, as I can't find
>anything like Traxmaker to download from their website.
>
>Thanks,
>Keith
Get this handy and free board layout program from
http://www.expresspcb.com/
you can email artwork to them and have boards back in
a few days. I use them a lot even in cases where I'm going
to have to relay production artwork in AutoCAD. The little
layout program works pretty slick and is easy to use.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings |
| From: | "David Glauser" <david.glauser(at)xpsystems.com> |
Gee, then I can pack an extra 40 poinds on my Europa, right?
:-)
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Davey [mailto:jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com]
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings
Well said!
Just to give an example, I struck a deal with myself when I started my
Europa: knowing I'm 40lbs heavier now than when I was 21 and that if I
took it seriously I could lose most, if not all, of the extra, I agreed
that I can have 1lb of not-essential-for-flight-but-still-fun gizmos (I
admit like lots of lights, dials and gadgets) for every 2lbs I lose off
me.
The dieting is going OK... and I'm actually looking forward to sanding
all that filler :-).
Regards,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa XS monowheel 537M G-EZZA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Thanks Bob. My comment about safety was geared towards not using a
>possibly decective part (the free CB's) to save a few dollars and
>jeopardize my safety.
>
>Jeff
Not a high risk with high-dollar breakers . . . but I've
seen even those critters fail to open. I've NEVER seen
a fuse fail to open.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings |
Only if you've been as dedicated a real ale drinker and cheese muncher
as I have... :-(
Cheers,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa XS monowheel 537M G-EZZA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Glauser
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings
Gee, then I can pack an extra 40 poinds on my Europa, right?
:-)
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Davey [mailto:jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com]
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rookie Questions - Weight savings
Well said!
Just to give an example, I struck a deal with myself when I started my
Europa: knowing I'm 40lbs heavier now than when I was 21 and that if I
took it seriously I could lose most, if not all, of the extra, I agreed
that I can have 1lb of not-essential-for-flight-but-still-fun gizmos (I
admit like lots of lights, dials and gadgets) for every 2lbs I lose off
me.
The dieting is going OK... and I'm actually looking forward to sanding
all that filler :-).
Regards,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa XS monowheel 537M G-EZZA
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor wirings |
> Okay, here 'tis . . .
Thanks Bob. It's much better to understand than follow blindly.
John Slade.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuitmaker |
I used ExpressPCB (www.expresspcb.com) CAD package to make some small PCB. It
was easy and quick. They have some "standard" size boards, or you can go for
your own size.
Richard Reynolds
rv6tc wrote>
> Does anyone know how to make a PC board using Circuitmaker? I'm trying to
> make one from a schematic, and this is not intuitively obvious. The
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Clay Smith <cbsmith(at)nf.sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Icom Installation |
I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. My edge
connector pin out diagram shows the need for 2 pins to be jumpered
together for power and a total of 4 pins jumpered for power ground.
I'll just make sure to run an extra ground and power wire to be sure.
Thanks again,
Clay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting S700-1-3 switches |
>
> > I am planning to use the Top
> > contact for 12V and the Centre contact for the application. I was thinking
> > about putting a piece of black shrink wrap over the "unused" contact to
> > make
> > it obvious/safer - - a little paranoid, perhaps but seems logical.
> > Ernest Kells
>
>Good Morning Ernest,
>
>This is far out of my area of expertise, but here goes anyhow!
>
>I might do the same, but is it really necessary? When the switch is in the
>position that would make the unused contact live, the only place anything
>could go would be to the device being operated. The most likely thing to
>contact an unprotected soldering tab would something which provided a ground.
> Very few devices would suffer any harm if their power input wiring was
>switched to ground. If a hot wire accidentally contacted the unprotected
>tab, all it would do is power up the device. The above would only happen if
>the switch was in the "OFF" position.
>
>If the switch were in the "ON" position, contact with either a ground or a
>hot source would have no effect whatsoever.
>
>I think your choice of contacts is fine and covering the unused terminal is
>probably worth the weight it takes, but the necessity to do so is probably
>pretty minuscule.
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
Look behind the panel and under the cowl on most spam-cans. There
are lots of exposed and sometimes "hot" pieces of metal. For example,
take the bus bar that runs across the back of the breakers on most
certified ships. When a builder becomes concerned about this
potential hazard, I suggest that he imagine that he's got any kind
of tool needed to "fail" any nearby component in a manner that
will short against that bus bar. If some hazard indeed exists,
the probability that this particular failure will occur should
be considered for re-design . . . it's more likely that
the original failure is the greater hazard, not the subsequent
shorting of the bus bar.
It's a perfectly valid exercise to consider all the what-if's
and deduce their potential for hazard and either fix it or
declare it non-hazardous. This is what Failure Modes Effects
Analysis is all about. So whether the focus is on unused terminals
of switches or open bus bars, track the hazard back to root cause.
The shorting event is at least the "second" failure. In the vast
majority of cases, it's not a concern because there are no
potential first failures in proximity to the exposed conductor.
I had a builder write some years ago to tell me that he had
cut off the unused terminals from the switches and covered
the remaining exposed metal with a dollop of RTV. The used
terminals were covered with heat shrink. A very enclosed
design and certainly nothing wrong with it . . . I don't
think I would have got to such effort on my airplane.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | PC board mounting |
What's the best way to mount a PC board, size in the range of 2" x 3" to
6"x8"? Smaller ones can be mounted on something else, but what about
standoffs or is a cage with slides really required for this size range?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom Installation |
At 10:32 PM 8/15/2002 -02-30, you wrote:
>
>I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. My edge
>connector pin out diagram shows the need for 2 pins to be jumpered
>together for power and a total of 4 pins jumpered for power ground.
Mine did too and i think this is poor design. They left it to the customer
to finish the circuit. They should be jumpered inside of course
>I'll just make sure to run an extra ground and power wire to be sure.
Huh?
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Mucker" <matthew(at)mucker.net> |
| Subject: | PC board mounting |
I'd say the environment in which the board is to be mounted is probably the
defining criteria.
If it were a PC board used in the drill bits in oil wells, it'd need a very
different mounting than if it were in a cleanroom in a wafer fab.
Also, if it only carries low voltage/low current, it'd need a different
mounting than if it were pulling kilovolts or kiloamps.
Yeah, I know, this is a lame answer... but really, without this kind of
information, we're at a loss to help. My guess is that you probably already
know what you want to do and are hoping for someone to concur. Let us know
more about the board and it's application and where it'll go, please.
-Matt
>
> What's the best way to mount a PC board, size in the range of 2" x 3" to
> 6"x8"? Smaller ones can be mounted on something else, but what about
> standoffs or is a cage with slides really required for this size range?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Two wires on paralleled pins? |
>
>
>At 10:32 PM 8/15/2002 -02-30, you wrote:
>
> >
> >I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. My edge
> >connector pin out diagram shows the need for 2 pins to be jumpered
> >together for power and a total of 4 pins jumpered for power ground.
>Mine did too and i think this is poor design. They left it to the customer
>to finish the circuit. They should be jumpered inside of course
>
> >I'll just make sure to run an extra ground and power wire to be sure.
>
>Huh?
>
>K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
>RV6-a N7HK flying!
>PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
When I responded originally with comments on Microair's
recommendations for dual power and ground wires, I was
considering the physics of their connector system: D-sub
connectors. Others have subsequently contributed to this
thread with the fact that some manufacturers use etched
circuit board, edge connectors that press wire termination
pins against gold plated "fingers" of copper clad traces
at the back edge of the circuit board.
This situation is an excellent reason for "doubling-up"
on the pins as this style of interconnection is operating
in a "high current" mode at anything over a few amps.
However, in either case, considering the physics of the
connector systems -and- the desire to balance the
current loading of parallel pins, it is sufficient
to (1) put, say a 22AWG wire in each of power and ground
pins provided, (2) extend the wires 6-12" behind the radio
and then (3) butt splice the pigtails into a single power
or ground feeder of relatively robust gage. Certainly
18AWG is sufficiently conductive to satisfy any
panel mounted accessory's quest for low-impedance
connection to the rest of the airplane. The short
pigtails of 22AWG (16 mOhms per foot) add a small
amount of resistance in series with each pin. The
wire resistance is LARGE compared to the pin's
contact resistance so that in spite of small,
pin-to-pin variations in connector performance,
current flowing in the power and ground feeders
is evenly distributed across the paralleled pins.
I am using a similar technique to distribute power
in a new target we're building at RAC . . . using
the paralleled-pins-on-pigtails technique, we're
bringing up to 40 Amps of battery power out of
an all solid state DC relay box to the rest of the
target's systems . . . all done comfortably on
itty-bitty pins rated at 5A each. D-subs saved
us several hundred dollars per target as compared
to the use of mil-spec circular connectors and made
it possible to down-size the volume of the power
distribution relay assembly by a factor of 75%
or more. An over-all savings of several pounds
and perhaps $1000 in manufacturing costs. Yet
the D-sub pins are of the same quality as pins
in the high-dollar connectors.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude reference |
>
>I just saw an ad for an attitude reference, stabilization, and navigation
>module (GPS and INS ?) from BEI Technologies, Inc. I don't know anything
>about them, but their web address is www.systron.com. I going to check it out
>now.
>
>Steve
Also check out
http://www.dynondevelopment.com/
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | PC board mounting |
Ok, it carries just aircraft voltage (14V), no more than a few amps, and
would be behind the panel or under a seat in the cabin. I mentioned my
mounting ideas, but I am hoping for a better suggestion than that, not just
concurrence. I am worried about vibration mostly.
>If it were a PC board used in the drill bits in oil wells, it'd need a very
>different mounting than if it were in a cleanroom in a wafer fab.
>
>Also, if it only carries low voltage/low current, it'd need a different
>mounting than if it were pulling kilovolts or kiloamps.
>
>Yeah, I know, this is a lame answer... but really, without this kind of
>information, we're at a loss to help. My guess is that you probably already
>know what you want to do and are hoping for someone to concur. Let us know
>more about the board and it's application and where it'll go, please.
>
> >
> > What's the best way to mount a PC board, size in the range of 2" x 3" to
> > 6"x8"? Smaller ones can be mounted on something else, but what about
> > standoffs or is a cage with slides really required for this size range?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude reference |
Steve,
I've done a bit of research into these types of systems using piezo
gyros (solid state). If you check the specificiation sheet on the Motion
Pac II you will find they show a bias drift of up to +-5 deg/sec. That
means the system could produce an erronous signal showing you had rolled 10
deg in two seconds - now the error may not be quite this bad as they are
showing that as a maixmum drift figure. I am surprised it is not lower,
given they are using 3 solid state gyros.
However, one "generally" acceptable figure, is that the roll error should
not be greater than 1 deg/min or 0.016 deg/sec for short term stability.
For long term stability these system generally include a heading component
that keeps erronous roll information from causing the system to diverge from
the desired heading. I am intending to use a combination of GPS and a solid
state magneometer (compass) to tend to the long term stability.
I have found a solid state gyro that offered a bias drift error of 0.01
deg/sec and I was really excited until I found it cost $2400 just for the
gyro.
If you find any solid state gyros with a drift/bias error of 0.01 deg/sec
or less, I would appreciate it if you would send me an e mail as I am
looking for one at an affordable price. I also found that when they
advertise "Low Cost" it is all relative, they really mean it does not cost
a $100,000 but may still run >$5000.
Good Luck
Ed Anderson
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: attitude reference
>
> >
> >I just saw an ad for an attitude reference, stabilization, and navigation
> >module (GPS and INS ?) from BEI Technologies, Inc. I don't know anything
> >about them, but their web address is www.systron.com. I going to check it
out
> >now.
> >
> >Steve
>
> Also check out
>
> http://www.dynondevelopment.com/
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Stewart <siinc(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PC board mounting |
Some of the electronic discount houses (All Electronics -
http://www.allcorp.com for instance) carry metal and non-metal project
boxes of various sizes, some of which accomodate pcb's either through
some sort of slide-in groove, or captured by screws.
Don
AZ
Gary Liming wrote:
>
>
> Ok, it carries just aircraft voltage (14V), no more than a few amps, and
> would be behind the panel or under a seat in the cabin. I mentioned my
> mounting ideas, but I am hoping for a better suggestion than that, not just
> concurrence. I am worried about vibration mostly.
>
> >If it were a PC board used in the drill bits in oil wells, it'd need a very
> >different mounting than if it were in a cleanroom in a wafer fab.
> >
> >Also, if it only carries low voltage/low current, it'd need a different
> >mounting than if it were pulling kilovolts or kiloamps.
> >
> >Yeah, I know, this is a lame answer... but really, without this kind of
> >information, we're at a loss to help. My guess is that you probably already
> >know what you want to do and are hoping for someone to concur. Let us know
> >more about the board and it's application and where it'll go, please.
> >
> > >
> > > What's the best way to mount a PC board, size in the range of 2" x 3" to
> > > 6"x8"? Smaller ones can be mounted on something else, but what about
> > > standoffs or is a cage with slides really required for this size range?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude reference |
Also check out
> http://www.dynondevelopment.com/
>
> Bob . . .
Anybody flying one of these yet?
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon & Kathryn Hults" <jkhults(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude reference |
Regarding Dynon Development..... They said at Oshkosh that it's still in
their test airplane (pictures on their web site)but will be delivered
soon(??). I plan to use one as back-up instrumentation for my Sierra
EFIS 2000 panel....(instead of all those round gages).
Jon Hults
Future Lancair Legacy
N222BZ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Top
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: attitude reference
Also check out
> http://www.dynondevelopment.com/
>
> Bob . . .
Anybody flying one of these yet?
--
John
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude reference |
They are not for sale yet. They should be by the end of the year.
Ross Mickey
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Top" <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net>
> Also check out
>
> > http://www.dynondevelopment.com/
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
> Anybody flying one of these yet?
>
>
> --
>
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glong2" <glong2(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS! |
The list has seen recommendations for a firewall penetration from Summit
Racing. I ordered and received the SUM-G1431 bulkhead connector because I
thought the insulator was bakelite. However, just as Bob had predicted, it
was a nylon mixture that burned very easily. A micro torch set it on fire
very fast - not good! I would not recommend this feed thru for an airplane
firewall.
Since I have a fire blanket over fiberglass firewall I do not need the
insulator. The purchased feed thru had solid brass 3/8" threads on both ends
with a bulkhead spacer (about 3/4") in-between. I removed the nylon,
machined the spacer down to 1/4" width, and threaded the bolt all the way to
the bulkhead spacer. I will use this assembly as a feed thru in my firewall
after reinforcing the firewall with flox & epoxy around the bulkhead feed
thru.
Eugene Long
Lancair Super ES
glong2(at)netzero.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
texasquadj(at)prodigy.net
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS!
Bob,
What is your recommendation for anyone who has to penetrate the firewall
with a large or small wire?
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:40:53 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS!
>
>
>
>I'm building a Lancair ES. Lancair provided 3 CPC fittings for the
>electronics to pass through the firewall. They seem to be AMP #
>206070-1. Should I be concerned about these melting through should I
>have a fire near the firewall?
>
Those would bug the hell out of me! I was going to ask
Lancair about those when I was out there a few weeks
ago and forgot. I'll try to get some feedback from
them on that recommendation in my next conversation
which should happen in the next few days.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
-------------------------------------------
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Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Source of FAST-ON tabs and their mounting |
Bob, or anyone,
I found a source of Raychem polyfuses rated 0.6 amps at a price of 20
cents each in lots of 100. I would like to build a printed circuit
board which will mount 5 to 20 of these, probably for lamp protection,
and have each circuit provide a Fast-On tab as output. I can get the
boards made simply enough, but where do I get the tabs, and how are they
mounted? I could solder them to PC pads, but this depends upon the
strength of the copper adhesive. Perhaps a plated through hole in the
center of the pad would add enough strength. I could rivet them in
place and also solder.
I could make the tabs out of 1/4 brass stock using a file, but this
seems silly: these things are punched out by the thousands. I just
don't have a source.
By the way, the Raychem polyfuses were found at
http://www.allectronics.com
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of FAST-ON tabs and their mounting |
Keystone Electronics makes lots of fast-on tabs and screw terminals. The
URL is www.keyelco.com.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
> Bob, or anyone,
>
> I found a source of Raychem polyfuses rated 0.6 amps at a price of 20
> cents each in lots of 100. I would like to build a printed circuit
> board which will mount 5 to 20 of these, probably for lamp protection,
> and have each circuit provide a Fast-On tab as output. I can get the
> boards made simply enough, but where do I get the tabs, and how are they
> mounted?
>
> I could make the tabs out of 1/4 brass stock using a file, but this
> seems silly: these things are punched out by the thousands. I just
> don't have a source.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PC board mounting |
>
>
>What's the best way to mount a PC board, size in the range of 2" x 3" to
>6"x8"? Smaller ones can be mounted on something else, but what about
>standoffs or is a cage with slides really required for this size range?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gary Liming
For all but stuff mounted to the engine, boards of this size
can be mounted on standoffs to a face of your enclosure. Threaded
standoffs with 4-40 or 6-32 screws work fine. For the larger
board, add a standoff somewhere near but not exactly in center
(dividing up a board in exactly equal rectangles with a central
spacer can set up resonances where sections of the board on either
side of the spacer see-saw at some frequency). Central spacer
at 2" x 3" from edges on 6 x 8 board is good.
Your greatest risk to longevity is not particularly keyed
to board mounting but how you put things ON the board.
Stand up components like dip tantalums, transistors,
pots, etc need to be structurally one with the board.
See http://216.55.140.222/temp
These photos show a handy technique for attaching components
to each other and to the board for increased resistance to
vibration induced lead fracture. The uckum-yucky is similar
to "Liquid Nails" or other structural adhesive commonly found
in lumber yards and hardware stores.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Master switch wiring |
On Z-11 the master switch is a two position switch (Off-Bat-Alt) and on
Z-12 and others it is a single position switch throwing both alt and
bat. This makes sense to me if you have redandant alternators. However,
on Z-11 the breaker for the alt field is on the right of the switch (with a
fuseable link on the left) and on Z-12 the breaker is on the left. I have
not been able to find an explanation of the difference in the book. Is
this just a way of showing there are different ways of wiring the same
thing, or is there some other thinking behind the difference?
Thanks,
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS! |
Hi Gene,
Good information to get out, I used that same connector and was one of the
people who recommended it. However, I forgot to mention that I also sealed
the crap out of it. Something to keep in mind!
Cheers,
Stein Bruch, RV6 Minneapolis
High on Acetone/MEK/DP-40...painting and priming!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of glong2
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS!
The list has seen recommendations for a firewall penetration from Summit
Racing. I ordered and received the SUM-G1431 bulkhead connector because I
thought the insulator was bakelite. However, just as Bob had predicted, it
was a nylon mixture that burned very easily. A micro torch set it on fire
very fast - not good! I would not recommend this feed thru for an airplane
firewall.
Since I have a fire blanket over fiberglass firewall I do not need the
insulator. The purchased feed thru had solid brass 3/8" threads on both ends
with a bulkhead spacer (about 3/4") in-between. I removed the nylon,
machined the spacer down to 1/4" width, and threaded the bolt all the way to
the bulkhead spacer. I will use this assembly as a feed thru in my firewall
after reinforcing the firewall with flox & epoxy around the bulkhead feed
thru.
Eugene Long
Lancair Super ES
glong2(at)netzero.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
texasquadj(at)prodigy.net
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS!
Bob,
What is your recommendation for anyone who has to penetrate the firewall
with a large or small wire?
Jeff
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:40:53 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . . OOPS!
>
>
>
>I'm building a Lancair ES. Lancair provided 3 CPC fittings for the
>electronics to pass through the firewall. They seem to be AMP #
>206070-1. Should I be concerned about these melting through should I
>have a fire near the firewall?
>
Those would bug the hell out of me! I was going to ask
Lancair about those when I was out there a few weeks
ago and forgot. I'll try to get some feedback from
them on that recommendation in my next conversation
which should happen in the next few days.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
-------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Master switch wiring |
>
>
>On Z-11 the master switch is a two position switch (Off-Bat-Alt) and on
>Z-12 and others it is a single position switch throwing both alt and
>bat. This makes sense to me if you have redandant alternators.
It's not critical for any architecture. The 2-3 switch is less
expensive and if you have crowbar ov protection, the associated
circuit breaker can be pulled for rare instances of needing to
run the battery during ground maintenance with the alternator
disabled and even rarer instances of needing to disable the
alternator in flight.
If you want to get fancy and don't mind the extra cost of the
ON-ON-ON switch, then you can do the OFF, BATT-ONLY, BAT-ALT
functionality shown on Z-11 and most of the other drawings.
> However,
>on Z-11 the breaker for the alt field is on the right of the switch (with a
>fuseable link on the left) and on Z-12 the breaker is on the left. I have
>not been able to find an explanation of the difference in the book.
There is no difference functionally, if you use fuseblocks, a
leadwire from bus terminal to the panel where the master switch
is located along with the alt field crowbar breaker would like
some protection . . . fusible link works well here as it is
MUCH slower protection than the circuit breaker and will not
nuisance trip if the OV system crowbars the breaker. Current
in a series circuit is the same everywhere, it matters not
which comes first, master switch or field breaker.
> Is
>this just a way of showing there are different ways of wiring the same
>thing, or is there some other thinking behind the difference?
Just seeing if you're paying attention and willing to
formulate the question. You passed the test!
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>Bob, I receive the AeroElectric-List Digest but not too sure how to post a
>question to the group, hope you can advise me.
How about subscribing to the list instead? This means you get a few
more e-mails (perhaps 10 a day) and you can simply hit the reply
button on your e-mail program. If you want to stay with the digest
only, add to your address book
and then hit "new message" in your e-mail program addressed to
the list and keyboard away . . . .
>
>I'm in the process of completing my Pulsar Series III and hope to be
>flying within the next several months.
>
>I've been fighting a problem, at least I think it's a problem but maybe
>it's not. Here's the situation. My home where I'm building has high
>voltage transmission lines on the backside of my property. I'd say the
>lines are about 300 feet from my house. I installed a Garmin GNS 430 and
>am getting a lot of noise, enough that I have to increase the squelch to
>almost maximum to keep the radio quiet. Even at maximum, on the lower
>frequencies squelch still breaks. I had the radio bench tested along with
>the 14 to 28 volt power converter with no problems reported yet the noise
>is still there. On the GNS 430 I switched antennas and used a borrowed
>external antenna mounted on a ground plane, the noise was there.
>
>Today I put a dummy load, from my Ham radio days, and attached it to the
>Garmin to see what would happen. Presto, the noise went away. Can I
>safely say that the noise being received is a high ambient noise being
>transmitted from the power lines arcing and sparking across the
>insulators? A side note, using a hand held, I don't pick up the noise but
>I suspect that the Garmin is more sensitive than the Handheld.
I think your analysis is probably correct. I wouldn't worry
about it until you get out to the airport. I suspect you'll
find that the system is okay out there.
>
>Appreciate any comments that you or the group would have.
>
>Bernie Berger
>Pulsar III N914BB
>Granada Hills, Ca.
>____________________________________________________
>Bernie Berger
>email: bberger(at)socal.rr.com
>Granada Hills, Ca.
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: attitude reference |
>
>
>Steve,
> I've done a bit of research into these types of systems using piezo
>gyros (solid state). If you check the specificiation sheet on the Motion
>Pac II you will find they show a bias drift of up to +-5 deg/sec. That
>means the system could produce an erronous signal showing you had rolled 10
>deg in two seconds - now the error may not be quite this bad as they are
>showing that as a maixmum drift figure. I am surprised it is not lower,
>given they are using 3 solid state gyros.
Bias drift is a very slow moving value that is a function of
temperature and sometimes age of the sensor. This error is
viewed as a relatively fixed offset voltage in the initialization
software of your processor. After the software washes out
offset, then the short term instabilities become much, much
smaller and can be washed out by the use of external sensors
such as magnetometers and GPS data.
What appear to be lousy sensors can be accommodated with
creative programming and external sources of more precise
data.
> However, one "generally" acceptable figure, is that the roll error should
>not be greater than 1 deg/min or 0.016 deg/sec for short term stability.
>For long term stability these system generally include a heading component
>that keeps erronous roll information from causing the system to diverge from
>the desired heading. I am intending to use a combination of GPS and a solid
>state magneometer (compass) to tend to the long term stability.
You're on the right track. We did some work with the earliest
Murata solid state rate gyros about 15 years ago using a magnetometer
to aid with error detection and cleaning. GPS could have been used
too . . . but the receivers available to us at the time were
about $10K a pop. The targets we build today are all solid state
using laser ring gyros teamed with laser altimeters and GPS for
accurate guidance at 15' off the water at Mach 2+.
There are applications where the current state of low cost
piezo rate sensors would work for us (higher altitudes and
slower speeds) and I suspect we'll be able to tap that
technology in the future . . . we've built our last
iron-gyro stabilized machine.
> I have found a solid state gyro that offered a bias drift error of 0.01
>deg/sec and I was really excited until I found it cost $2400 just for the
>gyro.
>
> If you find any solid state gyros with a drift/bias error of 0.01 deg/sec
>or less, I would appreciate it if you would send me an e mail as I am
>looking for one at an affordable price.
Make sure you're understanding the effects of "bias." The absolute
value of bias can be large which appears as a rate error of
5 degrees per second or so but the rate of change in that value
can be quite small meaning that for any given instance, the
error can be deduced and washed out. The BEI sensors should do
what you want to do for $200/axis or less.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
>
>
>RAC? Where are you suggesting we get this hardware?
RAC is Raytheon Aircraft Company . . . the folks who pay most
of the bills around here. The connectors suggested below are
indeed metal and certainly much better than plastic but
they'll only last perhaps a minute or two compared to seconds
with plastic.
The firewall penetrations we use on the piston ships at
RAC have about a 1" stainless steel tube with a flange that
bolts to the firewall. Immediately forward of the firewall,
the tube makes a 90-degree bend and continues parallel
to the firewall for perhaps 2" and ends with a bead for
hose clamp at the end. A piece of fire-sleeve is fitted
to the end of the tube. All wires are brought through this
fitting. With the final wire in place, the sleeve is
stuffed with fire-putty and clamps are added to close
the sleeve down around the wires as excess putty extrudes
from the sleeve.
This is an excellent barrier to fire that might try
to make it into the cockpit via your wire routing.
Jack Thurman tested this with "Puff the Magic Dragon"
out in Uncle Jack's House of Tortures many years ago.
It's relatively inexpensive, easy to fabricate and
very accommodating of the need to add or delete wires
at a later date.
Bob . . .
> >
> >BOB,
> >I USED THE FOLLOWING AMPHENOL CONNECTORS ON MY ROCKET:
> > MS3102E22-7P (FW BULKHEAD MOUNT RECEPTACLE, ONE #0 GA PIN, BUT
> >ACCOMODATES 2GA ALSO) ABOUT $10
> > MS3106E22-7S (STARTER CABLE PLUG, ONE #0 GA SOCKET, BUT
>ACCOMODATES
> >2GA ALSO) ABOUT $20
> >THESE ARE SOLDER CUP TERMINATIONS, BUT NO BIG DEAL TO SOLDER WITH THE
> >CORRECT TOOLS.
> >
> >FOR 4GA WIRE USE MS3102E16-12P FOR THE FW AND MS3106E16-12S FOR THE
>CABLE.
> >PROBABLY A COUPLE OF DOLLARS CHEAPER FOR EACH THAN THE CONNECTORS
>ABOVE. I
> >AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT ABOUT FIRE AND THE PLASTIC FEED THRU. NOT
>WORTH
> >IT IF YOU BREAK AN EXHAUST STACK OR INJECTOR LINE.
> >
> >I'D RATHER BE ON THE GROUND WISHING I WAS FLYING, THAN BE FLYING AND
>WISH I
> >WAS ON THE GROUND.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
>
>You can tell I am a new guy here. Greg has a better suggestion. Adding
>a switch just to each EFIS is probably the best bet.
>
>And his post about a sticking starter contactor is another good point.
>Even if you had a light/anunciator indicating that the condition was
>happening, it could be pretty annoying (dangerous) having to disconnect
>the battery mechanically with a propellor whirling away. Does someone
>build a contactor that is not prone to this kind of failure? It seems
>cheesy to have to design-in series contactors for safety.
Not "cheesy" but a well considered fact of life. Nothing
is failure/foolure proof. Don't care how much money you spent
on it. Don't waste your time looking for components from
Nirvana that come with halos and lifetime warranties. Even a
"lifetime" warranty will offer only to replace the part, there's
no rebate for cleaning out your shorts. You may indeed
experience an enhanced SERVICE life from such components but
nobody's betting you a $million$ that the part will never
fail.
> . . . . I guess you
>could use the old Continental pull style starter.... just kidding. At
>least this kind of emergency could be caught on the ground. Maybe a
>contactor should be servicable so that its contacts and sliding
>mechanism can be checked at anual for signs of iminent failure. Since
>they are cheap, if the contactor looks questionable, just replace it.
Please think in terms of eliminating the word "emergency" from
any speech about your electrical system. Failures? Yes. We
PLAN to deal with failures as a maintenance event. The "reliable"
flight system is one that gets you from point A to point B without
breaking a sweat no matter what breaks en route. One COULD
do periodic replacement of otherwise functional components
as a preventative measure . . . that IS in some part the
philosophy behind yearly battery change-outs. But for most
of the parts you'll need, I suggest that it's quite easy
to design both the system and your personal understanding
so that you can comfortably run-em-til-they-croak.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
>
>Off the top of my head, it sure seems like you might need at least
>one larger battery, if a 17Ah won't get the job done - Bob says that
>they will produce several hundred CCA when used for starting. I
>realize that having 2 of the same size is nice from the 'replace one
>annually school of thought.' I am surprised that you can't get a
>reasonably sized (small) RG battery to crank your big Continental. How
>many CCA's do they say you need?
Even the worst of the 17 a.h. batteries will dump 300A plus
when new. A pair will get you 600A . . . if you can't get your
engine started with this, there's no help with bigger batteries.
>I DO have a question for Bob however (though he's on vacation). Is
>there a reason why the starting circuit can't be always hot - like its
>wired on lots of cars? That way you could crank the engine with the
>master off, but the mags/ei on. Then once every thing is running,
>kick the master on, and away you go....
yep, covered that in an earlier post . . .
>....Actually, I just looked at schematic Z-17, and found it almost the
>way I am suggesting, except that it looks like power to the starting
>switch comes off the master powered bus. You could wire as always hot,
>instead - maybe only safe if you have a key switch? The other concern
>here is if the starter is not physically near the battery, you are
>stuck with mounting the starter contactor close to the battery, which
>eliminates being able to use the heavy battery cables to carry the
>alternator output. Or, you could mount the starter contactor close to
>the starter (far from the battery), and live with having a heavy guage
>always hot cable - not good. I'd go the first route.
>
>One more thought: Since you are going to have dual alternators, I'd
>plan on this as your redundancy. Plan on one bigger battery to run the
>starter, and if the design of your alternators won't run if your battery
>conks out, then get a SMALL battery to keep at least one alternator
>stable. I'd have a tough time installing 2 70A alternators if they
>didn't actually provide any redundancy (won't run on their own).
Maintained batteries don't fail. This is why the "all electric
airplane on a budget" architecture promises so much. Even if
you loose the battery contactor (which makes the main alternator
questionable) you there IS going to be a battery there to keep
the little PM alternator happy. If I were building an airplane,
Figure Z-13 would be my personal choice.
If you truly NEED more snort from the second alternator, then
there are more things to consider and perhaps dual-bat/dual-alt
is more attractive. Even so, the batteries CAN be quite small
and light. B&C has a 12 a.h. product that by itself will crank
the biggest piston single . . . a pair would do just fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
>
>
>Bob (or others),
>
>I have researched and read your articles and threads on the antiquity of
>the AMS. However, I believe I have a unique situation that an AMS is
>the only logical solution I can find. I'm hoping you can help.
>
>BACKGROUND: Lancair Legacy 2000
> Supercharged IO-550
> Planning a dual 17Ah bat, dual 70A alternator
>system
Why dual 70A . . . understand that the front alternator
has to be the piece of certified junk that happens to fit
the engine's gear pad. I presume the second alternator is
a belt driven from the rear . . . do yourself a favor
and put a B&C L-60 or even an L-40 on there. These alternators
run until you do something to break them or the belt breaks
because you ran it too long . . .
>The "glass cockpit" avionics package I am pursuing consists of a pair of
>Chelton/Sierra Flight Systems EFIS 2000 computers, along with a Crossbow
>AHRS. I have placed the basic needed equipment on the ESS bus, and the
>rest on the PRI bus. However, with using the smaller 17Ah batteries,
>both will be required for starting. With the typical equipment in my
>stack (PS audio panel, garmin 430, garmin 330) having switches on them,
>this doesn't present a problem; just make sure I have them all off when
>I start the engine if I was worried about any undervoltage problems.
Why ask people that don't know? Call up each manufacturer and ask an
ENGINEER
if they did DO-160 qualification testing on their product and what
components, if any, are at risk for brownout conditions on the bus?
>However, the EFIS and AHRS don't have power switches on the units;
>therefore, it seems to me that they would require an AMS. Not only
>that, but since one EFIS is on the PRI bus, and one is on the ESS bus
>(with the AHRS), it would follow that I would need 2 AMS's, one for each
>bus.
>
>With this said, and as it would seem that 2 AMS's are required, what
>would you suggest as a backup to throw power to the ESS bus if the ESS
>AMS fails (per your recommendation in
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/avmaster.pdf)?
>
>Would a simple switch to control power to the avionics busses be best,
>or would a switch that feeds a contactor be more robust and trustworthy?
>I ask, because the contactor solution would provide a simpler solution
>to the backup question in the previous paragraph.
>
>Thoughts?
Sure, perhaps you're thinking/worrying too much about something that
doesn't require it. If you sent that company a hand full of
$killo$ you are ENTITLED to ask and get good answers for
any question you have about their product. If you don't like
the answers you're getting, get me a name and phone number
and let me ask the questions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
>
>
>Shannon,
>The problem that you have is almost solved by a power switch for each
>EFIS and the AHRS.
. . . assuming the problem is real.
>However, if you need to do a restart in the air,
>loosing power to the AHRS may be a problem. Will it repower without
>loosing the level reference?
Except for some high compression airplanes with light, wooden
props and most notably the canard pushers, you're not going
to need a battery to do an air-start . . . in fact, if you
have a constant speed prop, the RPMS won't drop one bit when
the fuel runs out . . . but altitude spins down like a buck-shot-
ridden-duck.
> You might want to keep the AHRS and
>possible the EFIS powered up at all times. The solution is simple.
>Each buss should be fed by a diode from its alternator, as if each were
>an essential buss, as each buss feeds an EFIS. For each buss, attach a
>small 4-5 amp-hour battery via a diode-own small battery, two diodes.
>The small battery would power both busses during cranking, and at no
>other time. The only remaining problem is keeping the small battery
>charged. That is done by a single pole double throw switch. Prestart
>position: battery plus connected to the diode feeds. Run position:
>battery plus connects to one alternator. You would also need to
>deconnect the small battery when the engine was off. Using the oil
>pressure switch to drive a small relay is one method that avoids the
>problem of forgetting to turn it off.
>
>The easiest solution is to use only one battery for starting. The
>Odessey RG batteries have very low internal resistance: about 7
>milliohms for the 17 AH size. 400 amps draw would drop battery voltage
>2.8 volts-not bad. This way, the AHRS and one EFIS could be fully
>powered at all times.
. . . . let's see if the problem is real first. THEN, let's
consider the minimum parts count solution. I'm not convinced
the problem is real yet . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
>
>Greg Young wrote:
> >
> > Shannon,
> > Just because you feel the need for a switch on the EFIS doesn't dictate
> > an Avionics Master Switch, i.e. tying all the avionics gear into one
> > switch. The main argument against the AMS is that it is a single point
> > of failure that can take down multiple pieces of equipment.
>
>*** How about a bank of toggle switches that are somehow mechanically
>coupled - with a plastic bar on the outside. You pull on the bar, all the
>switches switch. Convenience and safety! The bar would be made to somehow
>come off easily - in case one of the switches broke internally and got
>stuck mechanically.
Hey Jerry, Rube Goldberg wasn't a distant cousin of yours
was he? :-) That's pretty impressive!
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
>
>Alfred,
>
>I did a Google search and found this
>http://63.97.220.44/products.html
>
>It is Eaton's web site, they might respond direct to your questions.
>
>Good luck
>
> > Pacific Coast Avionics sell an Eaton Annuciator Switch for GPS/NAV, but I
>have no specific information about it and >don't know if it handles the data
>given by the SL-30 and the GARMIN 195 correctly. Pacific Coast Avionics
>don't reply >to emails asking for more information.
This switch has a few contacts on it and some light bulbs
that will annunciate system condition, but it's not the
magic, do-all switch that is needed to make two radios talk
to one indicator. In the pure analog world, you'll to switch
between 14 and 18 wires from the indicator to the two radios.
This take a 18 pole, double throw switch . . . or more
accurately, up to nine, two-pole, double-throw relays.
The Eaton switch simply controls this bank of relays and
illuminates the proper segment of the switch to say which
radio is driving the indicator.
The easiest way to work the analog problem is to build
an etched circuit board to hold some miniature relays and
enough d-sub connector pins to accommodate the of-board
wiring. If anyone needs this kind of board, I could lay
one up in expresspcb and provide a bill of materials that
would be available through Digikey et. als.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Don Stewart
"Some of the electronic discount houses (All Electronics -
http://www.allcorp.com for instance) carry metal and non-metal project
boxes of various sizes, some of which accomodate pcb's either through
some sort of slide-in groove, or captured by screws.Don AZ"
8/17/2002
Hello Don, Thanks for your suggestion.
Has anyone found an enclosure that would fit the Vision Microsystems IO board
which is used for their fuel quantity system? VMS just provides a board with
the components and connectors installed and leaves it up to the builder to
suitably mount the board itself
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Drawings in App Z |
>
>
>Bob - apologies for a dumb question.
>
>In the past I have down loaded and opened some of the drawings in App Z with
>no problem and I don't have Autocad. I have recently rebuilt my PC and now
>cant. You indicate you have some downloads that will read them. Where do you
>keep them?
>
>Thanks, Steve.
Normally, they are distributed on my CD ROM. I've put them
up on my server for a few days. Check out:
http://216.55.140.222/CAD
there are three directories there that contain three
different cad programs. Feel free to download any or
all . . .
I'll take them down Monday night or so.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Subaru Starter Question |
>
>
>Hi Folks,
> First I just want to say again what a great resource this list and
> Bob's articles/drawings has become to me. I have a question about
> wiring my starter....checked the archives and found some good info, then
> downloaded "Let's Talk About Starter Solenoids" which really helped this
> rookie understand the innards of that danged solenoid. So thanks Bob
> and all participants.
> So here's the question. The Eggenfellner Subaru comes with a
> standard Subaru starter. One big post for the battery feed (6 awg per
> their website) one smaller post for the switch feed (16 awg.) The
> drawings and article lead me to stay with my original desire to
> incorporate a starter contactor. The article states that B&C puts in a
> jumper between the coil terminal and contactor main terminal of its
> starters Is there any reason to not do that on this starter?
Nope. That would be a good thing to do. Then use an external contactor
like our S702-1 or other suitably rated, intermittent duty contactor
to control power to the starter. CAUTION . . . if this is a permanent
magnet starter then adding the jumper will get you the same pinion gear
disengagement delay problem that SkyTech and others have experienced.
If you have a PM motor starter, you can consider NOT using an external
contactor but use a boost relay like our S704-1 to take the nasty
hits when you push the starter button. See Figure Z-22.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
>
>
> The easiest way to work the analog problem is to build
> an etched circuit board to hold some miniature relays and
> enough d-sub connector pins to accommodate the of-board
> wiring. If anyone needs this kind of board, I could lay
> one up in expresspcb and provide a bill of materials that
> would be available through Digikey et. als.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Bob -
I would very much appreciate your doing this. Many thanks for the help.
John Schroeder
Lancair ES with Z-14
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Drawings in App Z |
> >In the past I have down loaded and opened some of the drawings
> in App Z with no problem and I don't have Autocad. I have recently rebuilt
my
> PC and now cant. You indicate you have some downloads that will read them.
> Where do you keep them?
> >
> >Thanks, Steve.
>
> Normally, they are distributed on my CD ROM. I've put them
> up on my server for a few days. Check out:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/CAD
>
> there are three directories there that contain three
> different cad programs. Feel free to download any or
> all . . .
Perfect, Bob. Thanks. I was able to download turbocad2d, download the App Z
files and start setting up my wiring diagrams. Is Turbocad2D freely
distributable?
Regards,
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Navigation Select Switch |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
"....skip.......This switch has a few contacts on it and some light bulbs
that will annunciate system condition, but it's not the
magic, do-all switch that is needed to make two radios talk
to one indicator. In the pure analog world, you'll to switch
between 14 and 18 wires from the indicator to the two radios.
This take a 18 pole, double throw switch . . . or more
accurately, up to nine, two-pole, double-throw relays.
The Eaton switch simply controls this bank of relays and
illuminates the proper segment of the switch to say which
radio is driving the indicator.
The easiest way to work the analog problem is to build
an etched circuit board to hold some miniature relays and
enough d-sub connector pins to accommodate the of-board
wiring. If anyone needs this kind of board, I could lay
one up in expresspcb and provide a bill of materials that
would be available through Digikey et. als. Bob"
Hello Bob, Or for those not that electronically inclined one could purchase a
box containing multiple relays such as the Northern Airborne Technologies
RS16-001 GPS/Loran Transfer Switch. <> or
250-763-2232.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Bulkhead Connectors & Passthroughs |
Check out this website for pressure and/or hermetically sealed bulkhead
connectors. If anyone has experience or comments on these, I'd appreciate hearing
them.
http://www.pavetechnologyco.com/
John Schroeder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bulkhead Connectors & Passthroughs |
>
>
>Check out this website for pressure and/or hermetically sealed bulkhead
>connectors. If anyone has experience or comments on these, I'd appreciate
>hearing
>them.
>
> http://www.pavetechnologyco.com/
>
>John Schroeder
These are "hermetic" fittings intended to bring wires through
walls with large pressure differentials from side to side.
There is no claim of an ability to withstand fire.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Drawings in App Z |
>
> > >In the past I have down loaded and opened some of the drawings
> > in App Z with no problem and I don't have Autocad. I have recently rebuilt
>my
> > PC and now cant. You indicate you have some downloads that will read them.
> > Where do you keep them?
> > >
> > >Thanks, Steve.
> >
> > Normally, they are distributed on my CD ROM. I've put them
> > up on my server for a few days. Check out:
> >
> > http://216.55.140.222/CAD
> >
> > there are three directories there that contain three
> > different cad programs. Feel free to download any or
> > all . . .
>Perfect, Bob. Thanks. I was able to download turbocad2d, download the App Z
>files and start setting up my wiring diagrams. Is Turbocad2D freely
>distributable?
I belive the versions of Turbo CAD and IntelliCAD were the freeware
with registration copies I've had around for awhile. My favorite,
the ACADLT_1.0 for windows is the very first version of a limited
capability, lap-top version of Windows ACAD. Now quite old, it is
not distributable.
If anyone finds that learning and using this program has ongoing
benefits beyond what's necessary to update your wirebook, I'd
recommend you take an engineering student to lunch and get them
to buy you the latest ACADLT version from the university bookstore.
It will cost you about $200 and is VERY capable. It's also
registerable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tom sargent <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> The firewall penetrations we use on the piston ships at
> RAC have about a 1" stainless steel tube with a flange that
> bolts to the firewall. Immediately forward of the firewall,
> the tube makes a 90-degree bend and continues parallel
> to the firewall for perhaps 2" and ends with a bead for
> hose clamp at the end. A piece of fire-sleeve is fitted
> to the end of the tube. All wires are brought through this
> fitting. With the final wire in place, the sleeve is
> stuffed with fire-putty and clamps are added to close
> the sleeve down around the wires as excess putty extrudes
> from the sleeve.
bob:
Sounds great. Is there any plce that will sell such stainless steel
fittings to the likes of us homebuilders?
--
Tom Sargent.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven Kay <skay(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bulkhead Connectors & Passthroughs |
We use these regularly on our defense related projects. Alot of under water sonar
stuff. Excellent products at serious prices. -Steve
John Schroeder wrote:
>
> Check out this website for pressure and/or hermetically sealed bulkhead
> connectors. If anyone has experience or comments on these, I'd appreciate hearing
> them.
>
> http://www.pavetechnologyco.com/
>
> John Schroeder
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: initial plans for wiring a Cozy IV |
Sorry to take so long to get back to this . . .
>Yes, but given the limitation, whats the best way to supply power to a
>single feed EFI computer? Essential bus? Both battery busses? One battery
>bus?
Given that there is but a single EFI computer and given further
that the EFI computer has LOTS of parts and connections,
the likelihood that a well maintained battery is going to fail
before something in the computer fails is remote. I think I'd
hook the EFI through a single toggle switch to the main battery
bus. If you wanted to reduce parts count while increasing
robustness of connectivity components, you could use a fusible
link to take EFI power directly from the hot side of the main
battery contactor (same with ignition system).
This feedpath needs to be treated like the fuel lines that
run from carburetor to tank . . . by in large, there is only
one and it represents a single point of failure for the engine.
Sooo . . . drive robustness up, parts count down and do
good preventative maintenance on the most reliable source
of power there is . . . a battery.
> > How do you plan to handle battery maintenance? Have you
> > written a checklist of how to notice and then react to alternator
> > and/or contactor failures?
>Battery maintenance will be per your annual swap scheme. No checklist yet.
>Any help you can offer in that area would be much appreciated.
Okay, once we've reduced the options to a single, reliable
power feed, the need for a checklist goes away. You're already
going to have a low bus volts monitoring system. If the alternator
quits, you do load shedding as needed to accommodate remaining
sources of engine driven power and/or charge remaining on whatever
batteries your system contains.
> > Nothing "scary" . . . as long as you understand the system and
> > are prepared to deal with what ever idiosyncrasies are built into it.
>Well, Bob. You see that's my problem. I DON'T really understand the system
>I've designed or it's idiotsyncrasies. I've studied your book in depth and
>have probably taken in 60% of it. Given unlimited available funds I'd follow
>you're diagrams to the letter, and be comfortable in the knowledge that I've
>wired the plane in the optimum way based on the best advice I can get. As
>soon as I deviate from the drawings (i.e. because of the restrictions of the
>single feed computer or the need for a low cost automotive alternator) I'm
>on my own. My novice thinking is that the spare battery will give me plenty
>of time to deal with the rare occurance of a dead alternator or regulator,
>and the OV module will prevent the batteries frying if the alternator goes
>beserk, so I'm protected from the two worst danger areas. Perhaps I won't be
>able to continue a 4 hour flight without breaking a sweat, but I'll have an
>hour or so to find a roosting spot. What am I missing?
If you have only one EFI system, then it's reasonable to expect
performance equal to what the automotive industry has demonstrated
and that number is very high. None the less, given that it's
more complex than any portion of your power generation and delivery
system by perhaps two orders of magnitude, worrying about
redundancy in the power supply (which we already know how to make
reliable) adds complexity to both the fabrication and operation
of the system without adding to the overall system performance.
It's sorta like putting TWO Band Aids over a leak in the Hover Dam.
> > My only disappointment would
> > be based on your willingness to bring the artifacts of aviation
> > antiquity into what could be a throughly modern machine.
>I guess you're refering to the switching. Is this such a bad thing? If so -
>please say why. Switches are not a cost issue. I have over 1000 hours and 37
>years under this switching scheme and felt that the familiararity would be
>an advantage. Could you deliniate the disadvantages of going this way?
Ask what ADVANTAGE is brought to the cockpit with any additional
control or power routing scheme. Keep in mind that all other things
being equal, mechanical reliability is inversely proportional to
parts count . . . twice the parts, connections, etc . . . 2x
the probability of a failed part.
When things are going bad in the cockpit, system reliability with
respect to OPERATION is probably inversely proportional to the
SQUARE of the number of options to be sorted out and properly
addressed at a time when your ability to reason is under stress.
> > I get several e-mails a month from folks who praise the content
> > of the 'Connection and then seek my blessing on things they
> > choose to do differently. I find it useful to observe the
> > teachings of a 13th century philosopher, William of Occam.
>Ah yes, good old Bill and his razor. I used to live just up the road from
>him.
Hell-of-a-fine fellow . . . would have enjoyed tipping a
few pints with him . . .
> > So when folks want to make changes, I
> > ask them to explain in what ways their proposed modifications
> > make the system perform better.
>
>I wasnt really seeking you're blessing - rather the opposite. I was asking
>for details of what I was giving up. I'm not trying to make the system
>better, I'm trying to make it CHEAPER. As with almost everything, there's a
>compromise. You've probably heard the saying "two types of airplanes -
>perfect ones and flying ones". If my economies are giving away more safety
>margin than I find acceptible, now is the time to arrest my plans. I guess
>what I need is more knowledge on what I'm giving up.
Okay, leaving parts out always translates to cheaper . . .
we only need to do the science that says that probability
of a no-sweat flight isn't degraded by leaving parts out.
There are parts of the airplane that are single points of
failure that will ruin your day . . . but we fly them in
comfort knowing that science (and history) tells us probability
of failure is too remote to be concerned with. With the
proposed single EFI system, reliability of THAT system
is the driver . . . as was the reliability of carburetors,
in fuel systems of old.
I'll suggest the philosophy that yields the most comfort
is to power it through a delivery system with the same
order of reliability as your wing and propeller attach
bolts. Minimum wires, joints and components between it
and a well maintained RG battery.
If the setup does give you a bad time on some flight
in the future, odds are about 100:1 that it's a transistor
or capacitor in the EFI that will cause it, not electron
starvation from the power source.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheelchair Battery ? |
>
>
>
>I found a battery made by Sonnenschein (German) that is carried by Les
>Schwab. $49.95. No shipping charge. The battery is model ES18-12, 18 AH,
>wt. 13.1 lbs. Dimensions in plan view 2.99" x 7.13" - 6.37" tall. Nut and
>bolt posts flush with top surface. Front and side cable access.
>
>This appears to be a great deal for anyone in the Western US because there
>are 335 Les Schwab Tire dealers and you can get it at any one of them for
>$49.95 plus tax but shipping is included. So just call and pick them up.
>You can find your closest Les Schwab dealer jumping into the yellow pages
>on yahoo.
>
>The Les Schwab rep faxed me the page showing this battery out of their
>catalog. It is the lower right battery on the page of Sonneschein
>batteries. You can see the orientation of the posts if you blow it up a
>bit. I talked to Jamie at Schwab HQ (514)416-5132.
Did a little poking around on the 'net . . . the ES18-12
didn't sound like a Sonnenschein part number (Bill used to
handle a Sonnenschein Gel-Cell and we had some occasion to
tippy-toe through the Sonnenschein catalogs). A search
on ES18-12 seems to attribute this part number to a company
called "Global". Here's a website in the UK that illustrates
the ES18-12 as a direct replacement for several other brands:
http://www.upssystems.uk.com/acatalog/The_UPS_Store_High_Quality_Pattern_Replacements_2.html
Did a search on Global and ES18-12 and got only 6 hits
NONE of which revealed to me who "Global" is . . .
I suspect this is a re-branded battery. This is not
to suggest that it's a "bad" battery . . . lots
of perfectly reputable folks buy good stuff from other
folks and re-brand it (not the least of which are my
friends up in Newton, KS).
So, the battery you have discovered is indeed a member
of a family of batteries of this size and price class
that is equivalent to Sonnenschein F312/15.0GH5; A512/16.0G5
RS Dryfit 595-081; Powersonic PS12170; Panasonic LCR12V17CP;
LCR1215P(a); Hitachi HP15-12; Global ES18-12; Fulmen 12015;
Fiamm FG21803 and undoubtedly others.
I was particularly interested in this investigation because
Sonnenschein is one of the few remaining sources for Gel-Cells
and I wanted to make sure this battery was NOT a Gel-Cell.
Here's are some sites that speak to Sonnenschein's line of
Gel-Cell products
http://www.sonnenschein.org/
http://www.ptech.co.nz/battery/sonnena2.html
While looking through the battery sites I ran
across this page:
http://www.dcbattery.com/optima_red.html where
it says, "Optima Batteries famous SPIRALCELL Technology
was invented by Optima Batteries engineering staff." I
suppose this is true if the Optima engineering staff
are the same folks who worked for Gates about 25 years
ago when the jelly-roll RG battery was patented by
Gates . . . shall we say, "I'm skeptical"? Those
guys would have to be REAL old by now.
Here's another interesting find:
http://www.ener1.com/b_bCharact.shtml
Here's a site that gathers a lot of SLA
battery data together in one place:
http://www.unipower.com/SLA%20pages/slaspec.htm
Anywho, need to quit surfing the net and go
build some harnesses. Never did find anything
on a Sonnnenschein F312/15.0GH5 to confirm that
these folks make both gel and starved electrolyte
technology batteries. Perhaps someone else on the
list can discover the details on this part number.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator/OV Module Question |
>
>
>Thanks very much Bob. Is Z23 available in anything other than dwg
>format? My steam powered home computer can't seem to handle it. Is it
>the same drawing that is referred to in the catalog section that includes
>the OV Module? I do have those.
> Thanks again.
>Bill Yamokoski
Sure. Download appendix Z at:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
the .dwg format is for those who what to use excerpts
from my drawings in their own CAD efforts. All the .dwg
drawings are available in .pdf print form at the
above link.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re:Navigation Select Switch |
>
>AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>
> "....skip.......This switch has a few contacts on it and some light bulbs
> that will annunciate system condition, but it's not the
> magic, do-all switch that is needed to make two radios talk
> to one indicator. In the pure analog world, you'll to switch
> between 14 and 18 wires from the indicator to the two radios.
> This take a 18 pole, double throw switch . . . or more
> accurately, up to nine, two-pole, double-throw relays.
> The Eaton switch simply controls this bank of relays and
> illuminates the proper segment of the switch to say which
> radio is driving the indicator.
>
> The easiest way to work the analog problem is to build
> an etched circuit board to hold some miniature relays and
> enough d-sub connector pins to accommodate the of-board
> wiring. If anyone needs this kind of board, I could lay
> one up in expresspcb and provide a bill of materials that
> would be available through Digikey et. als. Bob"
>
>Hello Bob, Or for those not that electronically inclined one could purchase a
>box containing multiple relays such as the Northern Airborne Technologies
>RS16-001 GPS/Loran Transfer Switch. <> or
>250-763-2232.
Hmmm . . . I looked these guys up . . . would recommend that anyone
that could use such a device do their best to BECOME electronically
inclined. The RS16-001 at:
http://www.northernairborne.com/jpgs/pdfs/RS16-001Sec6.pdf
is just 8, two-pole relays in a box with a connector . . . lists
for over $400 at my distributor. Bill of materials is on the
order of $40 in small quantities. I'll see what I can do
to get a board layout and bill of materials posted for a
DIY GPS/VOR indicator relay board.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Navigation Select Switch |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> >
> >
> > "....skip.......This switch has a few contacts on it and some light bulbs
> > that will annunciate system condition, but it's not the
> > magic, do-all switch that is needed to make two radios talk
> > to one indicator. In the pure analog world, you'll to switch
> > between 14 and 18 wires from the indicator to the two radios.
> > This take a 18 pole, double throw switch . . . or more
> > accurately, up to nine, two-pole, double-throw relays.
> > The Eaton switch simply controls this bank of relays and
> > illuminates the proper segment of the switch to say which
> > radio is driving the indicator.
> >
> > The easiest way to work the analog problem is to build
> > an etched circuit board to hold some miniature relays and
> > enough d-sub connector pins to accommodate the of-board
> > wiring. If anyone needs this kind of board, I could lay
> > one up in expresspcb and provide a bill of materials that
> > would be available through Digikey et. als. Bob"
> >
> >Hello Bob, Or for those not that electronically inclined one could purchase
a
> >box containing multiple relays such as the Northern Airborne Technologies
> >RS16-001 GPS/Loran Transfer Switch. <> or
> >250-763-2232.
>
> Hmmm . . . I looked these guys up . . . would recommend that anyone
> that could use such a device do their best to BECOME electronically
> inclined. The RS16-001 at:
>
> http://www.northernairborne.com/jpgs/pdfs/RS16-001Sec6.pdf
>
> is just 8, two-pole relays in a box with a connector . . . lists
> for over $400 at my distributor. Bill of materials is on the
> order of $40 in small quantities. I'll see what I can do
> to get a board layout and bill of materials posted for a
> DIY GPS/VOR indicator relay board.
>
> Bob . . .
>
It's been a while, but Semiconductor mfgrs used to make
inexpensive analog switches that could switch multiple
sources to multiple loads. A quick Google search turned up
this Analog Devices AD8113.
http://www.analog.com/technology/amplifiersLinear/designTools/selectionGuides/switch_select.html
Not cheap at $30 in 100 quantity, but a lot less than $400.
This one switches 16 sources to 16 loads. Requires bipolar
supply (easy with today's inexpensive switching supplies) &
can swing +/- 10volts which should handle pretty much any
nav signal.
There are probably some devices out there at far less than
$10 each if we looked a little harder.
Search for 'analog crosspoint switch.'
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | VOR/GPS Indicator Relay Assembly |
For those who have an interest in building their own
18-pole, two-throw relay for switching an analog
CDI,GS,OBS indicator between a GPS receiver and a
VOR receiver, I've uploaded the etched circuit board
artwork and documentation to:
http://216.55.140.222/9008
The .pcb file is an ExpressPCB art file that fits their
standard Miniboard service for 1 day turnaround and 3 finished
boards for $62. The relays, connectors and one diode are available
from Digikey as are mating connectors. The total bill of materials
for the relay assembly (including board) should come out
something on the order of $60.
Before anyone charges off and orders boards, I'd like the
assistance from any of the listers that can check the tracework
on the board layout. I finished this about midnight and checked
it twice but you know how it is to proofread your own handiwork.
I'll check it again tomorrow and if anyone else out there could
give it the fine-tooth comb treatment for artwork versus schematic
and report their findings, I would be grateful.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . |
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> > The firewall penetrations we use on the piston ships at
> > RAC have about a 1" stainless steel tube with a flange that
> > bolts to the firewall. Immediately forward of the firewall,
> > the tube makes a 90-degree bend and continues parallel
> > to the firewall for perhaps 2" and ends with a bead for
> > hose clamp at the end. A piece of fire-sleeve is fitted
> > to the end of the tube. All wires are brought through this
> > fitting. With the final wire in place, the sleeve is
> > stuffed with fire-putty and clamps are added to close
> > the sleeve down around the wires as excess putty extrudes
> > from the sleeve.
>
>bob:
>
> Sounds great. Is there any plce that will sell such stainless steel
>fittings to the likes of us homebuilders?
The parts use on the Bonanza and Baron are fabricated
in-house at RAC . . . you don't wanna know what we get for
that part as a spare!
I've had it in the back of my mind to see if a local
fab shop could give us a good price on a batch. Maybe
Mr. B at B&C would be interested in handling it. I'll
do a drawing and see if we can get some quotes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
> >
>It's been a while, but Semiconductor mfgrs used to make
>inexpensive analog switches that could switch multiple
>sources to multiple loads. A quick Google search turned up
>this Analog Devices AD8113.
>
>http://www.analog.com/technology/amplifiersLinear/designTools/selectionGuides/switch_select.html
>
>Not cheap at $30 in 100 quantity, but a lot less than $400.
>This one switches 16 sources to 16 loads. Requires bipolar
>supply (easy with today's inexpensive switching supplies) &
>can swing +/- 10volts which should handle pretty much any
>nav signal.
>
>There are probably some devices out there at far less than
>$10 each if we looked a little harder.
>
>Search for 'analog crosspoint switch.'
>
>Charlie
I considered critters like this plus some passive
x-point switches when Dave S and I designed B&C's
supper-whippy nav selector switch about 6 years
ago. Without trying the device in a bench test setup
and perhaps on a few airplanes, we couldn't be sure
that all combinations of panel mounted accessories
would be compatible . . . so we stayed with dry-contact
rated relays.
The AD8113 has gain of 2 amplifiers in each channel
so that one can put a 75 ohm resistor in series
with each output to drive 75 ohm coax in video
systems. This would give us problems with the
instrument interface calibration.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wheelchair Battery ? |
At 11:51 AM 8/18/2002Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> Did a little poking around on the 'net . . . the ES18-12
> didn't sound like a Sonnenschein part number (Bill used to
> handle a Sonnenschein Gel-Cell and we had some occasion to
> tippy-toe through the Sonnenschein catalogs).
The Les Scwab buyer (there's only one) looked this up in his catalog. He
faxed me the page of photos for the Sonnenschein Batteries. Each battery in
the photos has the name "Powerfit" clearly written in raised letters on the
case. Can't see what the small writing says though. I posted this fax
<http://www.eucleides.com/fax00005.tif>.
You can phone Jamie at Schwab HQ (514)416-5132 and talk to him as I did. He
said this was a Sonnenschein battery.
> A search
> on ES18-12 seems to attribute this part number to a company
> called "Global". Here's a website in the UK that illustrates
> the ES18-12 as a direct replacement for several other brands:
>
>http://www.upssystems.uk.com/acatalog/The_UPS_Store_High_Quality_Pattern_Replacements_2.html
>
> Did a search on Global and ES18-12 and got only 6 hits
> NONE of which revealed to me who "Global" is . . .
I did some searching too and it looks like Global and Yuasa are synonyms.
<http://www.vds.de/en/daten/verzeichnisse/pest/pest1107414c0.htm#7381>
They have an ES 18-12. One branded Rocket and the other branded Global.
> I suspect this is a re-branded battery. This is not
> to suggest that it's a "bad" battery . . . lots
> of perfectly reputable folks buy good stuff from other
> folks and re-brand it (not the least of which are my
> friends up in Newton, KS).
Look at this nice book of specs for Powerfit batteries.
<http://www.exidenetworkpower.co.uk/mainpages/downloads.html>
Looks like it might also be an Exide battery. But I see that the Powerfit
ES18-12 photo from the fax I was sent has the Sonnenshein rising sun symbol
just as do all other Sonnenshein batteries have in the upper left corner.
> So, the battery you have discovered is indeed a member
> of a family of batteries of this size and price class
> that is equivalent to Sonnenschein F312/15.0GH5; A512/16.0G5
> RS Dryfit 595-081; Powersonic PS12170; Panasonic LCR12V17CP;
> LCR1215P(a); Hitachi HP15-12; Global ES18-12; Fulmen 12015;
> Fiamm FG21803 and undoubtedly others.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(425)641-1773 fax |
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> The parts use on the Bonanza and Baron are fabricated
> in-house at RAC . . . you don't wanna know what we get for
> that part as a spare!
>
*** Once upon a time, I installed a GPS in my Cessna 170. I picked the
parts for firewall penetration out of Cessna's parts list. There was a pair
of half-moon SS washers, an asbestos washer, and a rubber grommet. I said
"well, if it was good enough for Cessna, it should be good enough for me",
and went down to the Cessna store.
"Sure, no problem. The half moon washers are $120 each, the asbestos
washer is $80, and the rubber grommet is fifty cents. Will that be cash or
charge?"
I put down the phone, and when my hand stopped shaking, thought about Other
Ways to accomplish the goal :). Aircraft Spruce had half-moon washers for
$5 each. I used a disk of Teflon instead of the asbestos. I was, however,
able to afford the proper rubber grommet :).
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Laurence <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of FAST-ON tabs and their mounting |
----- Original Message -----
>
> Keystone Electronics makes lots of fast-on tabs and screw terminals. The
> URL is www.keyelco.com.
>
> David Swartzendruber
> Wichita
>
> > Bob, or anyone,
> >,
>h, but where do I get the tabs, and how are they
> > mounted?
> >
Bob Nuckolls sells fast on tabs and various other products.
Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
The dual 70A alts are for hyd pump and the air conditioning, both of
which draw 35-40A. I plan to put the a/c on the aux alt, which I plan
to be a 70A Kelley Aerospace unit that is mounted to the rear vacuum
pad...it's their new gear driven unit.
This is all still in the design phase, which is why I'm asking the
questions. So. I'd love to hear alternatives, especially from the B&C
lineup.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-,list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The old AV Master debate
>
>
>Bob (or others),
>
>I have researched and read your articles and threads on the antiquity
of
>the AMS. However, I believe I have a unique situation that an AMS is
>the only logical solution I can find. I'm hoping you can help.
>
>BACKGROUND: Lancair Legacy 2000
> Supercharged IO-550
> Planning a dual 17Ah bat, dual 70A alternator
>system
Why dual 70A . . . understand that the front alternator
has to be the piece of certified junk that happens to fit
the engine's gear pad. I presume the second alternator is
a belt driven from the rear . . . do yourself a favor
and put a B&C L-60 or even an L-40 on there. These alternators
run until you do something to break them or the belt breaks
because you ran it too long . . .
>The "glass cockpit" avionics package I am pursuing consists of a pair
of
>Chelton/Sierra Flight Systems EFIS 2000 computers, along with a
Crossbow
>AHRS. I have placed the basic needed equipment on the ESS bus, and the
>rest on the PRI bus. However, with using the smaller 17Ah batteries,
>both will be required for starting. With the typical equipment in my
>stack (PS audio panel, garmin 430, garmin 330) having switches on them,
>this doesn't present a problem; just make sure I have them all off when
>I start the engine if I was worried about any undervoltage problems.
Why ask people that don't know? Call up each manufacturer and ask an
ENGINEER
if they did DO-160 qualification testing on their product and what
components, if any, are at risk for brownout conditions on the bus?
>However, the EFIS and AHRS don't have power switches on the units;
>therefore, it seems to me that they would require an AMS. Not only
>that, but since one EFIS is on the PRI bus, and one is on the ESS bus
>(with the AHRS), it would follow that I would need 2 AMS's, one for
each
>bus.
>
>With this said, and as it would seem that 2 AMS's are required, what
>would you suggest as a backup to throw power to the ESS bus if the ESS
>AMS fails (per your recommendation in
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/avmaster.pdf)?
>
>Would a simple switch to control power to the avionics busses be best,
>or would a switch that feeds a contactor be more robust and
trustworthy?
>I ask, because the contactor solution would provide a simpler solution
>to the backup question in the previous paragraph.
>
>Thoughts?
Sure, perhaps you're thinking/worrying too much about something that
doesn't require it. If you sent that company a hand full of
$killo$ you are ENTITLED to ask and get good answers for
any question you have about their product. If you don't like
the answers you're getting, get me a name and phone number
and let me ask the questions.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
I was suggested by the guys (Kirk) at Lancair Avionics to put the EFIS
and AHRS under an AV switch. That's where my info came from. I'll
contact CFS/SFS and go from there. I know their unit has undergone
extreme testing, so I'll see what they say.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The old AV Master debate
>
>
>Shannon,
>The problem that you have is almost solved by a power switch for each
>EFIS and the AHRS.
. . . assuming the problem is real.
>However, if you need to do a restart in the air,
>loosing power to the AHRS may be a problem. Will it repower without
>loosing the level reference?
Except for some high compression airplanes with light, wooden
props and most notably the canard pushers, you're not going
to need a battery to do an air-start . . . in fact, if you
have a constant speed prop, the RPMS won't drop one bit when
the fuel runs out . . . but altitude spins down like a buck-shot-
ridden-duck.
> You might want to keep the AHRS and
>possible the EFIS powered up at all times. The solution is simple.
>Each buss should be fed by a diode from its alternator, as if each were
>an essential buss, as each buss feeds an EFIS. For each buss, attach a
>small 4-5 amp-hour battery via a diode-own small battery, two diodes.
>The small battery would power both busses during cranking, and at no
>other time. The only remaining problem is keeping the small battery
>charged. That is done by a single pole double throw switch. Prestart
>position: battery plus connected to the diode feeds. Run position:
>battery plus connects to one alternator. You would also need to
>deconnect the small battery when the engine was off. Using the oil
>pressure switch to drive a small relay is one method that avoids the
>problem of forgetting to turn it off.
>
>The easiest solution is to use only one battery for starting. The
>Odessey RG batteries have very low internal resistance: about 7
>milliohms for the 17 AH size. 400 amps draw would drop battery voltage
>2.8 volts-not bad. This way, the AHRS and one EFIS could be fully
>powered at all times.
. . . . let's see if the problem is real first. THEN, let's
consider the minimum parts count solution. I'm not convinced
the problem is real yet . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Laurence <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
I drew out Jim Weir's dimmer circuit in ExpressPCB. I've only proofed it
once. You can find it at:
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
If anyone is interested I'll send you the file.
However, After building the circuit, It's easier to buy Bob's dimmer. Not at
efficient but simple. The only problem with Weir's circuit utilizing pulse
width modulation is that it may generate some noise.
Peter
Peter Laurence
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . |
Please e-mail me a copy of the drawing - I have a local shop in mind that
might quote a good price. AutoCAD is fine.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . .
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> > The firewall penetrations we use on the piston ships at
> > RAC have about a 1" stainless steel tube with a flange that
> > bolts to the firewall. Immediately forward of the firewall,
> > the tube makes a 90-degree bend and continues parallel
> > to the firewall for perhaps 2" and ends with a bead for
> > hose clamp at the end. A piece of fire-sleeve is fitted
> > to the end of the tube. All wires are brought through this
> > fitting. With the final wire in place, the sleeve is
> > stuffed with fire-putty and clamps are added to close
> > the sleeve down around the wires as excess putty extrudes
> > from the sleeve.
>
>bob:
>
> Sounds great. Is there any plce that will sell such stainless
steel
>fittings to the likes of us homebuilders?
The parts use on the Bonanza and Baron are fabricated
in-house at RAC . . . you don't wanna know what we get for
that part as a spare!
I've had it in the back of my mind to see if a local
fab shop could give us a good price on a batch. Maybe
Mr. B at B&C would be interested in handling it. I'll
do a drawing and see if we can get some quotes.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: The old AV Master debate |
>
>
>I was suggested by the guys (Kirk) at Lancair Avionics to put the EFIS
>and AHRS under an AV switch. That's where my info came from. I'll
>contact CFS/SFS and go from there. I know their unit has undergone
>extreme testing, so I'll see what they say.
>
>---
>Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
Great! Nothing like hard data upon which to
make good decisions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of FAST-ON tabs and their mounting |
> > >
>
>Bob Nuckolls sells fast on tabs and various other products.
>
>Peter
I think he was looking for loose parts to use
on an in-house fabrication project. We don't
have loose male tabs. One company that comes
to mind for loose parts is:
http://www.keyelco.com/
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > The parts use on the Bonanza and Baron are fabricated
> > in-house at RAC . . . you don't wanna know what we get for
> > that part as a spare!
> >
>*** Once upon a time, I installed a GPS in my Cessna 170. I picked the
>parts for firewall penetration out of Cessna's parts list. There was a pair
>of half-moon SS washers, an asbestos washer, and a rubber grommet. I said
>"well, if it was good enough for Cessna, it should be good enough for me",
>and went down to the Cessna store.
>
> "Sure, no problem. The half moon washers are $120 each, the asbestos
>washer is $80, and the rubber grommet is fifty cents. Will that be cash or
>charge?"
>
> I put down the phone, and when my hand stopped shaking, thought about
> Other
>Ways to accomplish the goal :). Aircraft Spruce had half-moon washers for
>$5 each. I used a disk of Teflon instead of the asbestos. I was, however,
>able to afford the proper rubber grommet :).
Tony B did an article in SA some years ago on how to make
your own grommet shields. Teflon would not be a good substitute
for asbestos . . . were talking about a LOT of heat here.
Grommet shields, plain grommets and a dam of fire-putty around
the engine side of the wires, tubes, etc. has been generally
acceptable practice on lots of the light singles for decades.
I'm going to talk to Bill B about the RAC style fitting.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re:Navigation Select Switch |
>
>Bob,
> Wouldn't four 4-pole ice cubes be a lot less expensive ?
>Larry Mac Donald
perhaps . . . but harder to lay out on double-sided board.
Just published the corrected version using DPDT relays
at http://216.55.140.222/9008
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Drawings in App Z |
Bob - thanks for that. I am back in business. Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Drawings in App Z
>
>
>Bob - apologies for a dumb question.
>
>In the past I have down loaded and opened some of the drawings in App Z
with
>no problem and I don't have Autocad. I have recently rebuilt my PC and now
>cant. You indicate you have some downloads that will read them. Where do
you
>keep them?
>
>Thanks, Steve.
Normally, they are distributed on my CD ROM. I've put them
up on my server for a few days. Check out:
http://216.55.140.222/CAD
there are three directories there that contain three
different cad programs. Feel free to download any or
all . . .
I'll take them down Monday night or so.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roberto Giusti" <roby(at)mail.com> |
Bob,
I am trying to download the following file from your site:
Faston3.pdf
Using the following link
"FastOn vs. Ring Terminals . . . What's the Difference?"
But I get a message that says that the URL was not found.
Can you help?
I need to convert someone who hasn't seen the light...yet!
Thanks.
Roberto Giusti
RV8 Wings
In Italy
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The old AV Master debate |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> Hey Jerry, Rube Goldberg wasn't a distant cousin of yours
> was he? :-) That's pretty impressive!
>
*** Well, one of my childhood heros was Robinson Crusoe. He Made Do
with Whatever he Had.
- Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob or anyone:
Can you recommend a "fire putty" to use on the firewall?
It will be used on firewall penetrations that carry tefzel insulated
electrical wires. I want to avoid any destructive chemical interactions with
the tefzel.
Thanks
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6, wings on, interminable "final wiring")
SE Florida
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: "Fire Putty" |
I'm not sure if 3M CP 25 qualifies but it should as it is latex based. If
it is OK the best place to get it is in the electrical section of Home Depot
stores, $10 a tube. It's usually hidden so look closely.
Bill Hibbing
Glasair
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Fire Putty"
>
> Bob or anyone:
>
> Can you recommend a "fire putty" to use on the firewall?
>
> It will be used on firewall penetrations that carry tefzel insulated
> electrical wires. I want to avoid any destructive chemical interactions
with
> the tefzel.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gabe A Ferrer (RV6, wings on, interminable "final wiring")
> SE Florida
> ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
> Cell: 561 758 8894
> Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
Bob, or anyone,
Rather than fabricate a stainless steel part, why could we not use a two
dollar fitting employed to hold conduit as it enters an electrical box?
The tube is made in two parts for the right angle style which gives some
'sleeve' distance. It could be filled with putty. It comes in 3/4 inch
size and up; Home Depot has them in great variety. They are made of
galvanized steel, so should withstand heat well. I just installed some
lights in the garage with flexible armoured wire, and that is where I
ran into this part. The type for rigid conduit might not work as well.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, CMDR David" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - WEIGHT SAVINGS |
Dear Listers,
At the risk of being off topic, I learnt a while ago that trimming an
aluminium ariframe kit is a lot of work for small weight savings. But there
are some big decisions a builder can make to save weight. My RV7 strategy
looks like:
a. tail dragger not nose dragger.
b. no primer, alodine only.
c. one battery not two - but it will be well maintained as per Electric Bob.
d. all electric, saving a net 8lbs over vacuum.
e. EFIS vice steam gauges, saving maybe 8lb or more (see
http://www.users.bigpond.com/peter.nunn/ for a new box of toys).
f. Jabiru 200hp engine vice a Lycoming saving well over 100lbs!
g. Using local ground except for strobes and avionics.
Seat cushions & coverings that are light and comfortable look like the next
challenge.
Some weight will be put back into the plane in the form of redundant
instrumentation & avionics (& second alternator) for IFR flight, and long
range tip tanks. This is the true joy of being able to tailor a plane to our
specific dream of aeroplane usage.
Incidentally we have a bloke here trying to register a Piper Colt as an
ultralight of <1200lbs. He ripped the seats out and replaced them with
canvas & string hammocks! Think - he could save the weight of a balance ball
too - the angle of dangle of the hammock telling him about slip or skid!
This list is fun, and very useful. David Francis, VH-ZEE, Australia.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Can't find file |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I am trying to download the following file from your site:
>Faston3.pdf
>Using the following link
>"FastOn vs. Ring Terminals . . . What's the Difference?"
>
>But I get a message that says that the URL was not found.
>
>Can you help?
>
>I need to convert someone who hasn't seen the light...yet!
>
>Thanks.
>
>Roberto Giusti
>RV8 Wings
>In Italy
Sorry about that! Don't know how it disappeared from
the server but it was indeed missing. I got a chance
to look the article over and correct some spelling
errors. I've reloaded it at:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/faston3.pdf
Your friend may also be interested in some related
articles at:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/terminal.pdf
and
http://216.55.140.222/articles/rules/review.html
Thanks for the heads up on the missing file!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
Robert McCallum wrote:
"The vast majority of this type of fitting are actually made as zinc die
castings. (low melting
point, therefore inadequate protection) Check carefully the material if
you choose this route."
I hate being wrong, but I certainly was here. I took a magnet to the
workshop, and most of the fitting in question was zinc with just enough
steel insert to fool the unwary... One must take the unit apart and
test each separately, although the zinc is easy to recognize after a few
tests. It is the thick, light, and non-magnetic stuff. Guess a trip to
Home Depot is in order with magnet in hand. If I do find someting I
think a test with a propane torch is in order. Thanks, Robert.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Fuse protects the wire |
Bob.
For a given wire size, should I use a fuse based on the 35C rise current
in Table 8-3, "Aero-Electric Connection", Rev 10, i.e. 20AWG = 7A Fuse?
Richard Reynolds
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Laurence <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . |
Rob, Please proof the board connections!
This is the sinking current version. I made it up on a shack board and seems
to work fine.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . .
<RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
>
> Please e-mail me a copy of the drawing - I have a local shop in mind that
> might quote a good price. AutoCAD is fine.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L.
> Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . .
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> >
> > > The firewall penetrations we use on the piston ships at
> > > RAC have about a 1" stainless steel tube with a flange that
> > > bolts to the firewall. Immediately forward of the firewall,
> > > the tube makes a 90-degree bend and continues parallel
> > > to the firewall for perhaps 2" and ends with a bead for
> > > hose clamp at the end. A piece of fire-sleeve is fitted
> > > to the end of the tube. All wires are brought through this
> > > fitting. With the final wire in place, the sleeve is
> > > stuffed with fire-putty and clamps are added to close
> > > the sleeve down around the wires as excess putty extrudes
> > > from the sleeve.
> >
> >bob:
> >
> > Sounds great. Is there any plce that will sell such stainless
> steel
> >fittings to the likes of us homebuilders?
>
> The parts use on the Bonanza and Baron are fabricated
> in-house at RAC . . . you don't wanna know what we get for
> that part as a spare!
>
> I've had it in the back of my mind to see if a local
> fab shop could give us a good price on a batch. Maybe
> Mr. B at B&C would be interested in handling it. I'll
> do a drawing and see if we can get some quotes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>I drew out Jim Weir's dimmer circuit in ExpressPCB. I've only proofed it
>once. You can find it at:
>http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
>
>If anyone is interested I'll send you the file.
>
>However, After building the circuit, It's easier to buy Bob's dimmer. Not at
>efficient but simple. The only problem with Weir's circuit utilizing pulse
>width modulation is that it may generate some noise.
It's unlikely that the switchmode dimmer will be a noise
problem. As a hedge against any such difficulties, you
might be able to craft the switchmode device so it is
fit/function replacement for the linear dimmers we
sell. If you had to switch it out later, it would be
a plug-n-play effort.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations . . . |
Peter, I think you replied to the wrong message. I haven't a clue what your
message means.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Peter
Laurence
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . .
Rob, Please proof the board connections!
This is the sinking current version. I made it up on a shack board and seems
to work fine.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . .
<RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
>
> Please e-mail me a copy of the drawing - I have a local shop in mind that
> might quote a good price. AutoCAD is fine.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L.
> Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetrations . . .
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> >
> > > The firewall penetrations we use on the piston ships at
> > > RAC have about a 1" stainless steel tube with a flange that
> > > bolts to the firewall. Immediately forward of the firewall,
> > > the tube makes a 90-degree bend and continues parallel
> > > to the firewall for perhaps 2" and ends with a bead for
> > > hose clamp at the end. A piece of fire-sleeve is fitted
> > > to the end of the tube. All wires are brought through this
> > > fitting. With the final wire in place, the sleeve is
> > > stuffed with fire-putty and clamps are added to close
> > > the sleeve down around the wires as excess putty extrudes
> > > from the sleeve.
> >
> >bob:
> >
> > Sounds great. Is there any plce that will sell such stainless
> steel
> >fittings to the likes of us homebuilders?
>
> The parts use on the Bonanza and Baron are fabricated
> in-house at RAC . . . you don't wanna know what we get for
> that part as a spare!
>
> I've had it in the back of my mind to see if a local
> fab shop could give us a good price on a batch. Maybe
> Mr. B at B&C would be interested in handling it. I'll
> do a drawing and see if we can get some quotes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen" <wstucklen1(at)cox.net> |
Listers,
I have a switched mode dimmer that I designed with radio Shack parts, that
will switch continuous loads up to 10 amps. I've had it in my IFR RV-6A now
for more than 5 years, and have not experienced any noise problems.
If anybody is interested in the documentation, email me at
wstucklen1(at)cox.net and I'll send you a copy of the schematics and assembly
pictures....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N925RV
1990+ hours and still going strong!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dimmers
>
> >
> >I drew out Jim Weir's dimmer circuit in ExpressPCB. I've only proofed it
> >once. You can find it at:
> >http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
> >
> >If anyone is interested I'll send you the file.
> >
> >However, After building the circuit, It's easier to buy Bob's dimmer. Not
at
> >efficient but simple. The only problem with Weir's circuit utilizing
pulse
> >width modulation is that it may generate some noise.
>
> It's unlikely that the switchmode dimmer will be a noise
> problem. As a hedge against any such difficulties, you
> might be able to craft the switchmode device so it is
> fit/function replacement for the linear dimmers we
> sell. If you had to switch it out later, it would be
> a plug-n-play effort.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 2 battery availiabilty in a essential buss only |
senario
bob thanks for your great book !
i am putting a mazda rotary, fuel injected,electronic ignition engine in a
rv 8 from powersport aviation.we've elected to go with the two battery
(b&c 114) 14 @ and a 55 amp internally regulated alternator,three busses,
hot battery ,main and essential busses following your suggestions
throughout the manual.
my question is on figure 17-6 in a e-bus only senario,powering the
essential buss through the e bus alt feed sw i can only use the power
from the main battery couldn't i connect the aux battery through that or
another sw to essentially double my available amp hours?
No. The reason for the second battery should be only for support
of half of an electrically dependent engine's operating needs.
This might be one pump and one ignition.
In other words, if you run down the main battery, the aux battery
is still there to keep the engine up and get you on the ground
in a controlled condition.
You still need to size the capacity of the main battery so that
all e-bus loads are supported for duration of fuel aboard. I'd
run half of engine loads on main battery bus, half on aux battery
bus, and essential en route loads on the e-bus. If you lose the alternator,
kill the main bus and run battery only with each battery doing
separate tasks. I'd even consider shutting down engine loads on
main battery bus until airport is in sight.
Actually, you still have ALL of the capacity of both batteries
available by simply closing the master switches . . . it's not
like you have a fat, #2 battery just setting there with nothing
to do. While en route, the goal is to comfortably reach destination
while minimizing loads on a limited resource . . . batteries.
Once the airport is in sight, you can probably turn everything
you really need back on because you've been a good steward of
ampere-hours.
also i am running two boost pumps (5@each) through one 1-3 sw is there a
c/b sw. out there with 1-3 characteristics?
You want to run EACH pump from its own switch through
its own circuit protection from a battery bus. Put one
pump on main battery bus, other on aux battery bus.
You don't want single point of failure for both pumps.
Also, switch-breakers are not advised . . . I wish
they had never invented those things. They have a very
limited utility on airplanes.
Rich Ward sends along his greetings..................thanks for your help
Jim Clark ,RV 8 final, sonoma skypark,sonoma calif.
What's Rich up to these days? Haven't heard from him
since the Apex program folded up. Have him drop
me a note if he gets a chance.
You might consider joining us on the AeroElectric-List
that is serviced out of Matronics.com. There are
signup links from my website under "On-Line Consulting"
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse protects the wire |
>
>
>Bob.
>
>For a given wire size, should I use a fuse based on the 35C rise current
>in Table 8-3, "Aero-Electric Connection", Rev 10, i.e. 20AWG = 7A Fuse?
>
>Richard Reynolds
There is an error in the book with respect to temperature rises.
The 35C curve is really 10C . . . which IS the curve you use
for sizing wires in wire bundles . . . this is what's done
on all certified ships. The 10C curve is really a 5C curve
and can be ignored. I'm going to revise the figures to give
correct data at the next update.
Yes, 22AWG gets 5A fuse, 20AWG get a 7A, etc.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetrations . . . |
>
>Please e-mail me a copy of the drawing - I have a local shop in mind that
>might quote a good price. AutoCAD is fine.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Rob Housman
I'll see if I can put my hands on the data and craft
a drawing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ira Rampil <rampil(at)anesthes.sunysb.edu> |
| Subject: | Questions for Bob |
Hi All,
Despite the subject line, anyone can answer of course!
The first question is about a design feature Bob uses in his power distribution
designs in the
book.
When using the rat shack full wave rectifier bridge for feed to an "essential"
bus, why not use
both of the diodes
whose cathodes end at the same terminal. I would guess slightly higher current
capacity in
addition to a degree of
redundancy should one diode pop. There would be a minor increase in weight due
to the inch long
jumper cable/faston
terminal on the main bus side, but are there other negatives I haven't considered?
Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to the battery
contactor. I hate
to lose 2 amps to
coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a heavy duty
triac would work
and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear of reliability or
spikes?
Finally, most of the discussion I have seen about a/c wiring concerns power distribution
with a
bit of coax thrown in.
Not much on signal wiring, yet many of the interconnect cables I have seen have
been true rat's
nests with many double-ups
and splits in destinations. Has anyone considered straight through cables to submini
connectors
with a wirewrap backplane?
Is wirewrap a poor choice for a/c?
Now a comment (;-)
In the recent discussion about 2 ga tefzel coated wire vs. welding cable, several
people commented
on the importance of
tefzel safety. I submit a look at the big picture. The POC (products of combustion)
from tefzel,
once it ignites are still toxic.
Tefzel more difficult to ignite and may not be self sustaining, but in an engine
fire, all bets
would be off. Personally I am going with ease of workability over toxicity for
those 6 - 8" of
heavy wire when I wire my firewall in a few weeks.
Thanks,
Ira
N224XS Europa XS Trigear motorglider
90% Done, 90% to go
This week(and next week, and next week...): wiring instrument panel: EFIS
One/SL30/SL70/miniTCAD/HardDrive MP3
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob |
Ira Rampil wrote:
> and splits in destinations. Has anyone considered straight through cables to
submini connectors
> with a wirewrap backplane?
> Is wirewrap a poor choice for a/c?
*** Extremely poor, IMHO. I used to work in test equipment maintenance in a
telephone equipment factory that had a lot of special purpose test sets that
were wirewrapped.
The wire wraps would perform well for about five years. Then they would
start to develop intermittant and open circuits.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodger Hamrick" <iflyv35(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tefzel insulation (Was Re: Questions for Bob) |
My understanding about the advantages of Tefzel insulation is that it is
extremely resistant to damage and provides additional strength for the
smaller conductors used in most avionics wiring, and it will not deteriorate
or become brittle with age (as does PVC or nylon).
Rodger
>From: Ira Rampil <rampil(at)anesthes.sunysb.edu>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Questions for Bob
>Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:26:37 -0400
>
>
>Now a comment (;-)
>In the recent discussion about 2 ga tefzel coated wire vs. welding cable,
>several people commented on the importance of tefzel safety. I submit a
>look at the big picture. The POC (products of combustion) from tefzel,
>once it ignites are still toxic.
>Tefzel more difficult to ignite and may not be self sustaining, but in an
>engine fire, all bets would be off. Personally I am going with ease of
>workability over toxicity for those 6 - 8" of heavy wire when I wire my
>firewall in a few weeks.
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Rounds <wrounds(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: "Fire Putty" |
You can get fire putty from Mcmaster-carr www.mcmaster.com it come in
sheets, is cheap and is just what you need.
Bill Rounds
Gabe and Marisol Ferrer wrote:
>
>Bob or anyone:
>
>Can you recommend a "fire putty" to use on the firewall?
>
>It will be used on firewall penetrations that carry tefzel insulated
>electrical wires. I want to avoid any destructive chemical interactions with
>the tefzel.
>
>Thanks
>
>Gabe A Ferrer (RV6, wings on, interminable "final wiring")
>SE Florida
>ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
>Cell: 561 758 8894
>Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
Hi Bob -
I'm trying to get a copy of your paper on your VML-14 loadmeter/voltmeter. I can't
seem to find it on
the website or on B&C's. Are you still selling it?
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
>
>
>Hi Bob -
>
>I'm trying to get a copy of your paper on your VML-14 loadmeter/voltmeter.
>I can't seem to find it on
>the website or on B&C's. Are you still selling it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
Sorry John, I've taken that publication down as the
product is no longer available. I can send you
a copy if you'd like to have it for the information
it contained but there are no plans to restock that
particular system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 2 battery availiabilty in a essential buss |
only s...
In a message dated 8/20/2002 8:31:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> Also, switch-breakers are not advised . . . I wish
> they had never invented those things. They have a very
> limited utility on airplanes.
Bob,
Would you expound on this viewpoint a little further?
I have been planning to use a handful of these in a mix of fuses, breakers
and switchbreakers. I can see the pros of using these (in certain cases
where switch and breaker are both worthwhile), but ignorance suggests I may
be missing some cons.
Regards, Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2 battery availiabilty in a essential buss |
only s...
In a message dated 8/20/2002 10:27:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com writes:
> > Also, switch-breakers are not advised . . . I wish
> > they had never invented those things. They have a very
> > limited utility on airplanes.
>
> Bob,
>
> Would you expound on this viewpoint a little further?
>
I'd also like to know the reason for your comment, Bob. Beech has been using
them on their planes for years with no real problems that I know of. Of
course, they can fail like any separate switch or breaker.
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 2 battery availiabilty in a essential buss |
only s...
I am also curious as to why your suggestion not to use switch breakers. I
happend to be part of a Mass buy and got a number to these switch breakers
installed in my panel. I must admit none of them are used for crucial
systems (such as fuel pumps, ignition (all electric aircraft), or fuel
injection as switches are too easy to bump off), but I do use them for
everything else and have had no problems in 160 hours of flying.
Ed Anderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 2 battery availiabilty in a essential buss only |
s...
>
>In a message dated 8/20/2002 8:31:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> > Also, switch-breakers are not advised . . . I wish
> > they had never invented those things. They have a very
> > limited utility on airplanes.
>
>Bob,
>
>Would you expound on this viewpoint a little further?
>
>I have been planning to use a handful of these in a mix of fuses, breakers
>and switchbreakers. I can see the pros of using these (in certain cases
>where switch and breaker are both worthwhile), but ignorance suggests I may
>be missing some cons.
>
>Regards, Doug Windhorn
Circuit protection is used to keep wires from burning should
they be subject to overload. Circuit protection should be as
close to the distribution bus as practical. Fuseblocks have
the bus bar built into the fuseblock assembly . . . hard
to get the fuse any closer to the bus . . . also hard to
get the bus any more protected/enclosed. Circuit breaker
panels build bus bars right on the backs of the breakers.
Generally speaking, power distribution centers are remote
from pilot controls. Fuse blocks can and should be out of
sight, out of mind behind the panel somewhere. Breaker
panels are most often displayed proudly on the panel but
there's no practical reason to use up panel space with
breakers . . . a breaker panel could just as easily
be located out of sight, out of mind also.
See: http://216.55.140.222/articles/fuseorcb.html
and http://216.55.140.222/articles/fusvsbkr.html
When you select a switch/breaker for installation
in your airplane, you have a device that's more
expensive than a switch, doesn't look like the rest
of your switches and forces you to extend the power
distribution system to a point behind the instrument
panel in front of the pilot. There are now concerns
for treating the feedwire from your REAL power
distribution bus to the switch-breaker as if it were
a bus bar. Further, a switch breaker's performance
as a switch will never equal that of a device designed
to be a switch.
Risks to this wire are low but what is the advantage
in using a switch/breaker? Fuseblocks do EXACTLY the
same job in conjunction with low cost, all look alike
switches. Other than the single, 5A alternator field
breaker used upstream of a crowbar ov module, I can
find no practical justification for the use of breakers
and/or switch/breakers in a modern, emergency-free
electrical system design.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob |
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>Despite the subject line, anyone can answer of course!
>
>The first question is about a design feature Bob uses in his power
>distribution designs in the
>book.
>When using the rat shack full wave rectifier bridge for feed to an
>"essential" bus, why not use
>both of the diodes
>whose cathodes end at the same terminal. I would guess slightly higher
>current capacity in
>addition to a degree of
>redundancy should one diode pop. There would be a minor increase in weight
>due to the inch long
>jumper cable/faston
>terminal on the main bus side, but are there other negatives I haven't
>considered?
Sure. HEAT. The act of paralleling two devices does not double their
ability to reject heat when they're on the same heat sink. The fact that
you've sorta divided the current between two devices in the same package
relieves loading on the individual devices internally (But why bother?
They're
25A devices running VERY lightly loaded anyhow) but doesn't improve on the
ability of the assembly to handle the power disipation.
>Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to the
>battery contactor. I hate
>to lose 2 amps to
>coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a heavy
>duty triac would work
>and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear
>of reliability or spikes?
Not at this time. These devices can be built but they would be expensive.
For systems of limited alternator capacity, consider a manual battery
switch . . . perhaps operated with a push-pull bowden control like
the choke on older cars.
>Finally, most of the discussion I have seen about a/c wiring concerns
>power distribution with a
>bit of coax thrown in.
>Not much on signal wiring, yet many of the interconnect cables I have seen
>have been true rat's
>nests with many double-ups
>and splits in destinations.
Aside from routing encoder data to both transponder and a GPS
receiver, I can't think of many places were single single
sources drive more than one load. Can you be more specific as to
the architecture that would drive the "rats nest" appearance?
> Has anyone considered straight through cables to submini connectors
>with a wirewrap backplane?
How about an etched circuit board with D-sub connectors soldered
to it? Wirewrap is a very poor production technology that was
briefly popular because it was friendly to both manual and automatic
assembly processes of the time. It's bulky, not very robust either
mechanically or environmentally.
>Now a comment (;-)
>In the recent discussion about 2 ga tefzel coated wire vs. welding cable,
>several people commented
>on the importance of
>tefzel safety. I submit a look at the big picture. The POC (products of
>combustion) from tefzel,
>once it ignites are still toxic.
>Tefzel more difficult to ignite and may not be self sustaining, but in an
>engine fire, all bets
>would be off. Personally I am going with ease of workability over toxicity
>for those 6 - 8" of
>heavy wire when I wire my firewall in a few weeks.
Discussed many times on this list and elsewhere. Bureaucrats
are fond of protecting you from things that may never happen
while ignoring things that happen often. Tefzel is nice stuff
but in some places, not as practical as welding cable. In terms
of overall performance, they are (in my never humble opinion)
equal and much easier to work with.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 2 battery availiabilty in a essential buss |
only s...
> ... the single, 5A alternator field
> breaker used upstream of a crowbar ov module...
Ahha! Thanks for answering the question I forgot to ask.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall pass through terminal blocks. |
Hi. I'm trying to keep from putting holes in my firewall for electrical
wire from the alternator, and to the starter. My batteries (24 volt
system) and everything but the starter and alternator are behind the aft
bulkhead for weight and balance. Obviously I have to get a power to the
starter through the bulkhead, and the alternator wires back to the voltage
regulator--also through the firewall.
Do you sell any terminal blocks that are interconnected so that mounting
them back to back, one on each side of the firewall, will allow me to pass
the circuit through the wirewall while still being able to seal it from
exaust fumes?
Exhaust fumes are not the problem . . . FIRE is the problem.
Wires conducted through fireproof technologies are the way to
go. Grommet shields combined with fire-putty on the engine side
have been used for decades. Modern Bonanzas use a stainless
steel elbow fitted with a putty sealed fire sleeve to bring
wire bundles through the firewall.
There are no connectors that poor people can afford to buy
that will do the job.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch/Breakers |
>
>
>I am also curious as to why your suggestion not to use switch breakers. I
>happend to be part of a Mass buy and got a number to these switch breakers
>installed in my panel. I must admit none of them are used for crucial
>systems (such as fuel pumps, ignition (all electric aircraft), or fuel
>injection as switches are too easy to bump off), but I do use them for
>everything else and have had no problems in 160 hours of flying.
Wouldn't expect you to have "problems" with the switch/breakers.
Their use compromises an otherwise simple, low parts count, compact
assembly of your electrical system. See adjacent post.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
Bob: regarding the wingtip antenna design in the AeroElectric connection,
basaed on the Archer design...
I would like to try this antenna for Comm and 2 meter ham antennas, one in
each wingtip, to replace the belly mount whiskers on my RV. I am assuming
it's relatively straightforward to scale the parts from the VOR band
(centered on 113 MHz) to the other bands of interest by using a linear scale
factor, as in | From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob) |
Bob,
I feel that I'd rather have a manual battery switch than a contactor. What
do you consider "limited alternator capacity"?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Questions for Bob
>
> >
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
>
> >Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to the
> >battery contactor. I hate
> >to lose 2 amps to
> >coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a heavy
> >duty triac would work
> >and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear
> >of reliability or spikes?
Bob replied:
> Not at this time. These devices can be built but they would be
expensive.
> For systems of limited alternator capacity, consider a manual battery
> switch . . . perhaps operated with a push-pull bowden control like
> the choke on older cars.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Thoma, Roy" <roy.thoma(at)intel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
Bob,
Please share with us why the Voltmeter/Loadmeter is not available. You
taught me (and this community ?)that the Voltmeter/Loadmeter has valuable,
unique features. Supplier problems? Reliability problems? Are there plans to
replace this with another product? Any concerns for those of us who have
installed these?
Regards,
Roy
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter
>
>
>Hi Bob -
>
>I'm trying to get a copy of your paper on your VML-14 loadmeter/voltmeter.
>I can't seem to find it on
>the website or on B&C's. Are you still selling it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
Sorry John, I've taken that publication down as the
product is no longer available. I can send you
a copy if you'd like to have it for the information
it contained but there are no plans to restock that
particular system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Questions for Bob |
> >Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to
the
> >battery contactor. I hate
> >to lose 2 amps to
> >coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a
heavy
> >duty triac would work
> >and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear
> >of reliability or spikes?
How about using a contactor with a dual coil design? I've seen 12V,
300A contactors that require only .35A holding current. This may not be
available in a low cost contactor, but then, you didn't list low cost as
a requirement.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
>
>Bob,
>
>Please share with us why the Voltmeter/Loadmeter is not available. You
>taught me (and this community ?)that the Voltmeter/Loadmeter has valuable,
>unique features. Supplier problems? Reliability problems? Are there plans to
>replace this with another product? Any concerns for those of us who have
>installed these?
Nothing to worry about. I'd originally taken the project
on with enough parts for 40 ship sets. It took nearly 4 years
to sell them. It was purely a business decision to not
invest in that much inventory again.
I'll see if B&C is interested in taking it on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switch |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I feel that I'd rather have a manual battery switch than a contactor. What
>do you consider "limited alternator capacity"?
>
>David Carter
That's a relatively vague term. I've got some readers
flying Vari-Ez ships with an SD-8 alternator. They're
day/vfr machines so using up 1A of total output to keep
a battery contactor closed doesn't bother them.
"Limited" is determined by your load analysis that
shows your normal running loads don't leave you enough
headroom of alternator capacity to recharge a battery
in, say, 1 hour of flight.
If you engine starts in 15 seconds of cranking or less,
that's about 1 ampere-hour of capacity. So you could load
a 17A alternator to perhaps 15A of output and still
get satisfactory operation from the system.
The key to satisfactory operation is understanding
what the system limitations are and learning to work
inside them with comfort.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna scaling |
>
>Bob: regarding the wingtip antenna design in the AeroElectric connection,
>basaed on the Archer design...
>
>I would like to try this antenna for Comm and 2 meter ham antennas, one in
>each wingtip, to replace the belly mount whiskers on my RV. I am assuming
>it's relatively straightforward to scale the parts from the VOR band
>(centered on 113 MHz) to the other bands of interest by using a linear scale
>factor, as in meter antenna parts. My question regards the "bakelite sandwich" that forms
>the capacitor for the gamma match. I think I should scale down only the
>length and width of the dielectric and the "plates" that it separates, but
>not alter the thickness. Do you think that's correct, as a ballpark guess?
>I'm really not sure if there is a need to change the capacitance value by a
>more radical amount than the simple surface area change would accomplish.
>IIRC, there's an inverse square relationship with dielectric thickness, but a
>linear one with plate area. Which are we after?
>
>Any help appreciated, even if it's a wild guess. Also, a source for Bakelite
>sheet?
About any dielectric sheet can be used. FR-4 fiberglas like
that used for etched circuit boards would be good. Your best
bet is to buy or borrow an antenna analyzer like the MFJ-259B.
This is my favorite antenna tool . . .
See: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/index.php
Here's a company that sells it for quite a discount:
http://www.tentec.com/MFJ.htm
You could replace the overlapping gamma-match conductors
and insulating sheet with a variable trimmer capacitor
and make match dead-nuts 1:1 at the center of your
frequency of interest.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall pass through terminal blocks. |
Bob,
Have you had a chance to ask Lancair about the supplied CPC connectors
for the firewall forward connectors?
Mike Salzman
LNCE project
Fairfield, CA
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
>
Nothing to worry about. I'd originally taken the project
on with enough parts for 40 ship sets. It took nearly 4 years
to sell them. It was purely a business decision to not
invest in that much inventory again.
>
Bob,
Do you have any spare parts left? I'd like to order a second set of prepared wires
with a 20 Amp shunt for my second alternator. I know that I could get the
shunt at B&C, but the prepared wires would be conveneient...
Alfred
Europa HB-YKI
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
>
>Bob,
>
>Do you have any spare parts left? I'd like to order a second set of
>prepared wires with a 20 Amp shunt for my second alternator.
>I know that I could get the shunt at B&C, but the prepared wires
>would be conveneient...
>
>Alfred
>Europa HB-YKI
I have plenty of shunts and the wires are built from
bulk materials. You can put an order in through the
website catalog. Add you wires request in the comments
box at the bottom. What I don't have are any more of the
Westach instruments that were made especially for
this project.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ned Thomas" <315(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
I spoke to Westach sometime back and they said they could make the gauge.
It would take them a couple weeks but the price was quite reasonable.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter
>
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >Do you have any spare parts left? I'd like to order a second set of
> >prepared wires with a 20 Amp shunt for my second alternator.
> >I know that I could get the shunt at B&C, but the prepared wires
> >would be conveneient...
> >
> >Alfred
> >Europa HB-YKI
>
> I have plenty of shunts and the wires are built from
> bulk materials. You can put an order in through the
> website catalog. Add you wires request in the comments
> box at the bottom. What I don't have are any more of the
> Westach instruments that were made especially for
> this project.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Warren" <jwdub(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Push to Start Button Circuit |
I recently aquired an RV-3A with an 160 HP, IO-320. It had the
Prestolite starter in it, a push to start button wired through the
master switch lighting/nav light ciruit with a 5 A CB. After the
first start, during subsequent hot starts the 5A breaker would pop. I
replaced the Prestolite starter with a Skytec and checked the circuit
breaker panel and found a loose main power supply wire.
I tightened all connections and replaced the 5A CB with a new 7A CB and
serviced the battery. After doing this, the new 7A CB popped during
the first attempt at a cold start. Upon resetting the CB, the battery
contactor chattered when the MS was activated. I verified that the
battery was charged and then replaced the battery contactor. The next
start went without a hitch. However, upon trying a hot start, the 7A CB
popped again. I was able to get the engine started after about 20
minutes and about 5 resets of the CB.
The wiring appears to be 16 - 18 ga, which should support a 10A CB.
However, I'm puzzled as to why the starter button to the starter
solenoid would draw more than a few amps. I'm inclined to think that
either there's too much resistance in the starter button contact or
perhaps in the starter solenoid.
Any thoughts on how to proceed would be appreciated.
John Warren
La Center Wa
RV-3A
RV-6 in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sanders, Andrew P" <andrew.p.sanders(at)boeing.com> |
Wirewrap is used in the avionics backplane of Boeing "wide body" aircraft
('47, '67, '77). Don't know if you would consider that as a reliability
data point. Can't speak to how it's done on the little toy airplanes from
Renton.
>> and splits in destinations. Has anyone considered straight through
cables to
>> submini connectors with a wirewrap backplane?
>> Is wirewrap a poor choice for a/c?
>*** Extremely poor, IMHO. I used to work in test equipment maintenance in
a
>telephone equipment factory that had a lot of special purpose test sets
that
>were wirewrapped.
> The wire wraps would perform well for about five years. Then they would
>start to develop intermittant and open circuits.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Wire Wrap |
Sanders, Andrew P wrote:
>
>
> Wirewrap is used in the avionics backplane of Boeing "wide body" aircraft
> ('47, '67, '77).
*** I can only speak from my own experience. But it's real experience, not
theory. I spent afternoons just soldering every wrap to achieve reliability
on those test setups.
The factory environment might have been more hostile than in an airplane
- but it was an *electronics* factory, a relatively benign place.
- Jerry "the clank of the steam hammers, the glow of the forges" Kaidor
( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.blackler(at)boeing.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Fuses vs. Breakers exchange |
Bob,
Can I remove internal regulation from an alternator and use a B&C LR3?
Cheers
Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Start Button Circuit |
>
>I recently aquired an RV-3A with an 160 HP, IO-320. It had the
>Prestolite starter in it, a push to start button wired through the
>master switch lighting/nav light ciruit with a 5 A CB. After the
>first start, during subsequent hot starts the 5A breaker would pop. I
>replaced the Prestolite starter with a Skytec and checked the circuit
>breaker panel and found a loose main power supply wire.
>
>I tightened all connections and replaced the 5A CB with a new 7A CB and
>serviced the battery. After doing this, the new 7A CB popped during
>the first attempt at a cold start. Upon resetting the CB, the battery
>contactor chattered when the MS was activated. I verified that the
>battery was charged and then replaced the battery contactor. The next
>start went without a hitch. However, upon trying a hot start, the 7A CB
>popped again. I was able to get the engine started after about 20
>minutes and about 5 resets of the CB.
>
>The wiring appears to be 16 - 18 ga, which should support a 10A CB.
>However, I'm puzzled as to why the starter button to the starter
>solenoid would draw more than a few amps. I'm inclined to think that
>either there's too much resistance in the starter button contact or
>perhaps in the starter solenoid.
>
>Any thoughts on how to proceed would be appreciated.
Your experience is understandable and predicable.
See http://216.55.140.222/articles/strtctr.pdf
Your circuit breakers seem to be pretty fast . . .
lots of 7A breakers will stay closed for the short period
of time your starter contactor is drawing 20+ amps.
A starter contactor boost relay like Figure Z-22 or
an external contactor like our S702-1 would both
be good fixes.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Warren" <jwdub(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Start Button Circuit |
Bob,
My appologies, I re-read my message and realized that I stated that the push
to start switch went to the starter solenoid, when in fact it is an external
intermitent starter contactor like your S702-1. Unfortunately my copy of
your manual only goes to Z-18 and I'm unable to connect to your article site
reference. Does the above change your answer?
Thanks,
John Warren
LaCenter Wa
RV-3A
RV-6 in progress
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Push to Start Button Circuit
>
> >
> >I recently aquired an RV-3A with an 160 HP, IO-320. It had the
> >Prestolite starter in it, a push to start button wired through the
> >master switch lighting/nav light ciruit with a 5 A CB. After the
> >first start, during subsequent hot starts the 5A breaker would pop. I
> >replaced the Prestolite starter with a Skytec and checked the circuit
> >breaker panel and found a loose main power supply wire.
> >
> >I tightened all connections and replaced the 5A CB with a new 7A CB and
> >serviced the battery. After doing this, the new 7A CB popped during
> >the first attempt at a cold start. Upon resetting the CB, the battery
> >contactor chattered when the MS was activated. I verified that the
> >battery was charged and then replaced the battery contactor. The next
> >start went without a hitch. However, upon trying a hot start, the 7A CB
> >popped again. I was able to get the engine started after about 20
> >minutes and about 5 resets of the CB.
> >
> >The wiring appears to be 16 - 18 ga, which should support a 10A CB.
> >However, I'm puzzled as to why the starter button to the starter
> >solenoid would draw more than a few amps. I'm inclined to think that
> >either there's too much resistance in the starter button contact or
> >perhaps in the starter solenoid.
> >
> >Any thoughts on how to proceed would be appreciated.
>
> Your experience is understandable and predicable.
>
> See http://216.55.140.222/articles/strtctr.pdf
>
> Your circuit breakers seem to be pretty fast . . .
> lots of 7A breakers will stay closed for the short period
> of time your starter contactor is drawing 20+ amps.
> A starter contactor boost relay like Figure Z-22 or
> an external contactor like our S702-1 would both
> be good fixes.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | vendor possibiltity |
Bob or anyone know of these guys?
<http://www.databusproducts.com/>
Stuff looks nice.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(425)641-1773 fax |
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Combined Starter and Alternator |
Here's a new development of interest:
Delphi has developed a combined starter and alternator for 1.6 liter
engines, that eliminates the starter and ring gear. One of the intents
here is to allow stop-start for the fuel savings (hard to see how this
would help aircraft), but it's interesting technology to watch.
www.Delphi.com/pdf/eandepdfs/energen5_stopstart.pdf
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD <John.Livingston(at)wpafb.af.mil> |
| Subject: | Combined Starter and Alternator |
Interesting. It would allow you to get rid of the starter wt. Certainly warrants
attention.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric M. Jones [mailto:emjones(at)charter.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Combined Starter and Alternator
Here's a new development of interest:
Delphi has developed a combined starter and alternator for 1.6 liter
engines, that eliminates the starter and ring gear. One of the intents
here is to allow stop-start for the fuel savings (hard to see how this
would help aircraft), but it's interesting technology to watch.
www.Delphi.com/pdf/eandepdfs/energen5_stopstart.pdf
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: vendor possibiltity |
>
>
>Bob or anyone know of these guys?
>
><http://www.databusproducts.com/>
>
>Stuff looks nice.
This stuff is military . . . with a price to match.
If anyone is interested in exploring low cost, high
performance data bussing, take a look at the CAN-Bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
>
>I spoke to Westach sometime back and they said they could make the gauge.
>It would take them a couple weeks but the price was quite reasonable.
If you'd like to build one of these systems from scratch,
I'll sell an etched circuit board and assembly data
for $10.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Start Button Circuit |
>
>Bob,
>
>My appologies, I re-read my message and realized that I stated that the push
>to start switch went to the starter solenoid, when in fact it is an external
>intermitent starter contactor like your S702-1. Unfortunately my copy of
>your manual only goes to Z-18 and I'm unable to connect to your article site
>reference. Does the above change your answer?
Hmmm . . . beats me. Our S702-1 has about a 3-ohm coil which draws
about 4A when energized. Have you measured the coil resistance
of your contactor?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator Field line protection |
Bob,
In your earlier versions (Z-1) of the Z-11 schematic you showed a 15 amp
fuse before the switch and a 5amp circuit breaker after the switch
protecting the wiring to the Bus terminal of the LR-3. In the later
versions (Z-11) you have changed to a fusible link in place of the fuse
with the 5amp circuit breaker in the same position. Would you describe
the rationale for the change?
Thanks.
Richard Dudley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter/Loadmeter |
Bob -
Would you need two boards - one for each alternator/bus on the Z-14 system?
If so reserve a couple of the boards for me.
Thanks,
John Schroeder
>
> >
> >I spoke to Westach sometime back and they said they could make the gauge.
> >It would take them a couple weeks but the price was quite reasonable.
>
> If you'd like to build one of these systems from scratch,
> I'll sell an etched circuit board and assembly data
> for $10.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Melvinke(at)aol.com |
Bob, how does one distinguish an intermittent (starter) contactor from a
continuous (master) contactor? Thankyou. Ken Melvin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ronbo135(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob |
In my search for welding cable, I was pointed to a local marine electrical shop
as a source for similar cable. They had many sizes of cable in red, black, and
other colors, sold by the foot, had terminal fittings, rubber terminal boots,
special heat shrink tubing (real thick and coated with sealant inside), and
a terminal crimper to use or rent.
The 4 and 6 gauge cable I bought meets some marine standards that I don't have
the references for right here. It is very flexible like welding cable and appears
to be very well made.
The person at the store said they used to sell welding cable and install it in
boats, but now used this. I don't think they were just trying to save a few bucks
on cable. If you want to see wire and parts for really heavy DC loads, find
a boat electrical shop. (Easier said than done depending on where you live,
but true.) There must be on-line distributors and catalog sources as well.
Please let me know if I stumbled into a bad idea.
Thanks,
Ron Hansen
Los Angeles,
Zenair 601HDS, Stratus, BRS, plans-built, 90% done, 90% to go.
Working on instrument panel.
In a message dated Wed, 21 Aug 2002 9:18:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
writes:
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Despite the subject line, anyone can answer of course!
> >
> >The first question is about a design feature Bob uses in his power
> >distribution designs in the
> >book.
> >When using the rat shack full wave rectifier bridge for feed to an
> >"essential" bus, why not use
> >both of the diodes
> >whose cathodes end at the same terminal. I would guess slightly higher
> >current capacity in
> >addition to a degree of
> >redundancy should one diode pop. There would be a minor increase in weight
> >due to the inch long
> >jumper cable/faston
> >terminal on the main bus side, but are there other negatives I haven't
> >considered?
>
> Sure. HEAT. The act of paralleling two devices does not double their
> ability to reject heat when they're on the same heat sink. The fact that
> you've sorta divided the current between two devices in the same package
> relieves loading on the individual devices internally (But why bother?
> They're
> 25A devices running VERY lightly loaded anyhow) but doesn't improve on the
> ability of the assembly to handle the power disipation.
>
>
> >Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to the
> >battery contactor. I hate
> >to lose 2 amps to
> >coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a heavy
> >duty triac would work
> >and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear
> >of reliability or spikes?
> Not at this time. These devices can be built but they would be expensive.
> For systems of limited alternator capacity, consider a manual battery
> switch . . . perhaps operated with a push-pull bowden control like
> the choke on older cars.
>
>
> >Finally, most of the discussion I have seen about a/c wiring concerns
> >power distribution with a
> >bit of coax thrown in.
> >Not much on signal wiring, yet many of the interconnect cables I have seen
> >have been true rat's
> >nests with many double-ups
> >and splits in destinations.
>
>
> Aside from routing encoder data to both transponder and a GPS
> receiver, I can't think of many places were single single
> sources drive more than one load. Can you be more specific as to
> the architecture that would drive the "rats nest" appearance?
>
>
> > Has anyone considered straight through cables to submini connectors
> >with a wirewrap backplane?
>
> How about an etched circuit board with D-sub connectors soldered
> to it? Wirewrap is a very poor production technology that was
> briefly popular because it was friendly to both manual and automatic
> assembly processes of the time. It's bulky, not very robust either
> mechanically or environmentally.
>
>
> >Now a comment (;-)
> >In the recent discussion about 2 ga tefzel coated wire vs. welding cable,
> >several people commented
> >on the importance of
> >tefzel safety. I submit a look at the big picture. The POC (products of
> >combustion) from tefzel,
> >once it ignites are still toxic.
> >Tefzel more difficult to ignite and may not be self sustaining, but in an
> >engine fire, all bets
> >would be off. Personally I am going with ease of workability over toxicity
> >for those 6 - 8" of
> >heavy wire when I wire my firewall in a few weeks.
>
> Discussed many times on this list and elsewhere. Bureaucrats
> are fond of protecting you from things that may never happen
> while ignoring things that happen often. Tefzel is nice stuff
> but in some places, not as practical as welding cable. In terms
> of overall performance, they are (in my never humble opinion)
> equal and much easier to work with.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> =============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RG400 Coax Cable Termination |
Bob, please:
For RG400 coax cable:
1) Should the coax connector crimp made to the first shield layer only?
RG400 has two layers of shielding. I cann't see how I could crimp to both
shield layers. If that is the correct technique.
2) Is it correct to connect the outer shield layer to one rod of the VOR
antenna, and the center conductor to the other? With the outer shield not
connected to the antenna.
Thanks.
Gabe A Ferrer (RV6, I'm not sure if I'll ever finish the electrical wiring)
ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG400 Coax Cable Termination |
Bob has instructions on his website.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG400 Coax Cable Termination
>
> Bob, please:
> For RG400 coax cable:
>
> 1) Should the coax connector crimp made to the first shield layer only?
>
> RG400 has two layers of shielding. I cann't see how I could crimp to both
> shield layers. If that is the correct technique.
>
> 2) Is it correct to connect the outer shield layer to one rod of the VOR
> antenna, and the center conductor to the other? With the outer shield not
> connected to the antenna.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Gabe A Ferrer (RV6, I'm not sure if I'll ever finish the electrical
wiring)
> ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
> Cell: 561 758 8894
> Night or FAX: 561 622 0960
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob, how does one distinguish an intermittent (starter) contactor from a
>continuous (master) contactor? Thankyou. Ken Melvin.
Intermittent duty devices have lower coil resistance . . .
on the order of 3-4 ohms. Continuous duty devices will
be 10-16 ohms.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field line protection |
>
>Bob,
>
>In your earlier versions (Z-1) of the Z-11 schematic you showed a 15 amp
>fuse before the switch and a 5amp circuit breaker after the switch
>protecting the wiring to the Bus terminal of the LR-3. In the later
>versions (Z-11) you have changed to a fusible link in place of the fuse
>with the 5amp circuit breaker in the same position. Would you describe
>the rationale for the change?
Sure. Things melt due to current flow with a characteristic
that is fairly constant for the material, length and cross-section.
It's called the I(squared)*T constant. While you can have a variety
of materials and technologies designed to burn open in sufficient
time to protect any given wire, you may find that their Isquared*T
constants are very different. So, if you hook a 5A breaker and a 5A
fuse in series with each other, and short the circuit to a hefty
battery, you will find that the fuse always opens before the breaker.
Okay, up=size the fuse. A 10A fuse will open before a 5A breaker
and in most cases, a 15A fuse will open faster than a 5A breaker.
Soooo . . . rather than take up a fuse slot useful for other things,
it seemed more practical to protect that short extension of the bus
that runs from fuseblock to OV crowbar breaker with a fusible link
wtih an Isquared*T constant MUCH longer than a 5A breaker but still
much shorter than the protected wire.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob |
The Ancor brand wire/cable sold by BOAT/US and West Marine is probably better than
welding cable because it is "tinned". Salt air in an aircraft is not as much
of a problem as in a boats, but all my non-tinned wire in my boat has a nice
green patinia at the connectors. Ancor brand wire is good.
Richard Reynolds
Ronbo135(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> In my search for welding cable, I was pointed to a local marine electrical shop
as a source for similar cable. They had many sizes of cable in red, black,
and other colors, sold by the foot, had terminal fittings, rubber terminal boots,
special heat shrink tubing (real thick and coated with sealant inside), and
a terminal crimper to use or rent.
>
> The 4 and 6 gauge cable I bought meets some marine standards that I don't have
the references for right here. It is very flexible like welding cable and appears
to be very well made.
>
> The person at the store said they used to sell welding cable and install it in
boats, but now used this. I don't think they were just trying to save a few
bucks on cable. If you want to see wire and parts for really heavy DC loads,
find a boat electrical shop. (Easier said than done depending on where you live,
but true.) There must be on-line distributors and catalog sources as well.
>
> Please let me know if I stumbled into a bad idea.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Hansen
> Los Angeles,
> Zenair 601HDS, Stratus, BRS, plans-built, 90% done, 90% to go.
> Working on instrument panel.
>
> In a message dated Wed, 21 Aug 2002 9:18:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
writes:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi All,
> > >
> > >Despite the subject line, anyone can answer of course!
> > >
> > >The first question is about a design feature Bob uses in his power
> > >distribution designs in the
> > >book.
> > >When using the rat shack full wave rectifier bridge for feed to an
> > >"essential" bus, why not use
> > >both of the diodes
> > >whose cathodes end at the same terminal. I would guess slightly higher
> > >current capacity in
> > >addition to a degree of
> > >redundancy should one diode pop. There would be a minor increase in weight
> > >due to the inch long
> > >jumper cable/faston
> > >terminal on the main bus side, but are there other negatives I haven't
> > >considered?
> >
> > Sure. HEAT. The act of paralleling two devices does not double their
> > ability to reject heat when they're on the same heat sink. The fact that
> > you've sorta divided the current between two devices in the same package
> > relieves loading on the individual devices internally (But why bother?
> > They're
> > 25A devices running VERY lightly loaded anyhow) but doesn't improve on the
> > ability of the assembly to handle the power disipation.
> >
> >
> > >Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to the
> > >battery contactor. I hate
> > >to lose 2 amps to
> > >coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a heavy
> > >duty triac would work
> > >and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear
> > >of reliability or spikes?
> > Not at this time. These devices can be built but they would be expensive.
> > For systems of limited alternator capacity, consider a manual battery
> > switch . . . perhaps operated with a push-pull bowden control like
> > the choke on older cars.
> >
> >
> > >Finally, most of the discussion I have seen about a/c wiring concerns
> > >power distribution with a
> > >bit of coax thrown in.
> > >Not much on signal wiring, yet many of the interconnect cables I have seen
> > >have been true rat's
> > >nests with many double-ups
> > >and splits in destinations.
> >
> >
> > Aside from routing encoder data to both transponder and a GPS
> > receiver, I can't think of many places were single single
> > sources drive more than one load. Can you be more specific as to
> > the architecture that would drive the "rats nest" appearance?
> >
> >
> > > Has anyone considered straight through cables to submini connectors
> > >with a wirewrap backplane?
> >
> > How about an etched circuit board with D-sub connectors soldered
> > to it? Wirewrap is a very poor production technology that was
> > briefly popular because it was friendly to both manual and automatic
> > assembly processes of the time. It's bulky, not very robust either
> > mechanically or environmentally.
> >
> >
> > >Now a comment (;-)
> > >In the recent discussion about 2 ga tefzel coated wire vs. welding cable,
> > >several people commented
> > >on the importance of
> > >tefzel safety. I submit a look at the big picture. The POC (products of
> > >combustion) from tefzel,
> > >once it ignites are still toxic.
> > >Tefzel more difficult to ignite and may not be self sustaining, but in an
> > >engine fire, all bets
> > >would be off. Personally I am going with ease of workability over toxicity
> > >for those 6 - 8" of
> > >heavy wire when I wire my firewall in a few weeks.
> >
> > Discussed many times on this list and elsewhere. Bureaucrats
> > are fond of protecting you from things that may never happen
> > while ignoring things that happen often. Tefzel is nice stuff
> > but in some places, not as practical as welding cable. In terms
> > of overall performance, they are (in my never humble opinion)
> > equal and much easier to work with.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > =============
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Fuselink question |
Bob,
On your catalog page, you seem to suggest that a
fuselink should measure about 6" long. Can't we make
them 1" or even less with the same result?
Thanks!
Michel
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://finance.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob |
>
>
>The Ancor brand wire/cable sold by BOAT/US and West Marine is probably
>better than welding cable because it is "tinned". Salt air in an aircraft
>is not as much of a problem as in a boats, but all my non-tinned wire in
>my boat has a nice green patinia at the connectors. Ancor brand wire is good.
>
>Richard Reynolds
>
>Ronbo135(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In my search for welding cable, I was pointed to a local marine
> electrical shop as a source for similar cable. They had many sizes of
> cable in red, black, and other colors, sold by the foot, had terminal
> fittings, rubber terminal boots, special heat shrink tubing (real thick
> and coated with sealant inside), and a terminal crimper to use or rent.
> >
> > The 4 and 6 gauge cable I bought meets some marine standards that I
> don't have the references for right here. It is very flexible like
> welding cable and appears to be very well made.
> >
> > The person at the store said they used to sell welding cable and
> install it in boats, but now used this. I don't think they were just
> trying to save a few bucks on cable. If you want to see wire and parts
> for really heavy DC loads, find a boat electrical shop. (Easier said
> than done depending on where you live, but true.) There must be on-line
> distributors and catalog sources as well.
> >
> > Please let me know if I stumbled into a bad idea.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ron Hansen
Checked out Ancor at http://www.ancorproducts.com/productcats.html
There descriptive literature on wire talks about vinyl insulation.
I note they only show wires down to 10AWG. I suspect there are other
suppliers of larger wire. Tinning the conductors is a positive move
but I'm not sure it has much to do with longevity in the system,
particularly with airplanes (unless they live on the beach in
FL!). Once a terminal is installed on the wire gas-tight, the
joint is not at risk and surface corrosion of individual conductors
is not a strong risk. In the fatter wires where the probability of
getting a wire hot electrically is very remote, insulation type
is less of an issue. Based on what I know now, I don't have any
reason to discourage the use of "marine" wire.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG400 Coax Cable Termination |
>
>
>Bob, please:
>For RG400 coax cable:
>
>1) Should the coax connector crimp made to the first shield layer only?
>
>RG400 has two layers of shielding. I cann't see how I could crimp to both
>shield layers. If that is the correct technique.
Treat them as a single layer. They go under the shield grip
sleeve just fine. See:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/bnccrimp.pdf
>2) Is it correct to connect the outer shield layer to one rod of the VOR
>antenna, and the center conductor to the other?
Center conductor to one side, both shields treated as single
shield to the other side.
> With the outer shield not connected to the antenna.
????
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | battery terminal crimper |
My crimper is useless for #6 (and larger) battery terminals. Does anyone
have a source for a more robust one?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery terminal crimper |
>
>My crimper is useless for #6 (and larger) battery terminals. Does anyone
>have a source for a more robust one?
Crimp tools are really nice when you have one that
has been adequately evaluated for accomplishment of
the intended task . . .
http://216.55.140.222/articles/terminal.pdf
I've been putting terminals on fat wires for
years with ordinary hand tools and materials
in my shop. Here are some universal techniques
that work with any size wire and terminal
http://216.55.140.222/articles/big_term.pdf
http://216.55.140.222/articles/rules/review.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Listers,
>
> I have a switched mode dimmer that I designed with radio Shack parts, that
>will switch continuous loads up to 10 amps. I've had it in my IFR RV-6A now
>for more than 5 years, and have not experienced any noise problems.
> If anybody is interested in the documentation, email me at
>wstucklen1(at)cox.net and I'll send you a copy of the schematics and assembly
>pictures....
>
>Fred Stucklen
I'd like to see what you've done. Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselink question |
>
>Bob,
>
>On your catalog page, you seem to suggest that a
>fuselink should measure about 6" long. Can't we make
>them 1" or even less with the same result?
>
>Thanks!
Haven't tested any that short. Why not give
it a try? Rig some fusible links at the ends
of protected wire . . . I use about 5' of 18AWG
to limit the fault current to about 200A or
so. See how long the two lengths take to open
or at least see if you can detect any difference.
I just stuck them across a 12V RG battery on the
bench. My major interest at the time was seeing
how much smoke I got and whether or not the fiberglas
would contain it. I used 6" 'cause that's how
long they are in cars. Haven't really thought
through the physics that might drive length.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rino <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions for Bob |
Westmarine.com is a good source of information and buying for Boating
equipment.
Rino
Ronbo135(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> In my search for welding cable, I was pointed to a local marine electrical shop
as a source for similar cable. They had many sizes of cable in red, black,
and other colors, sold by the foot, had terminal fittings, rubber terminal boots,
special heat shrink tubing (real thick and coated with sealant inside), and
a terminal crimper to use or rent.
>
> The 4 and 6 gauge cable I bought meets some marine standards that I don't have
the references for right here. It is very flexible like welding cable and appears
to be very well made.
>
> The person at the store said they used to sell welding cable and install it in
boats, but now used this. I don't think they were just trying to save a few
bucks on cable. If you want to see wire and parts for really heavy DC loads,
find a boat electrical shop. (Easier said than done depending on where you live,
but true.) There must be on-line distributors and catalog sources as well.
>
> Please let me know if I stumbled into a bad idea.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Hansen
> Los Angeles,
> Zenair 601HDS, Stratus, BRS, plans-built, 90% done, 90% to go.
> Working on instrument panel.
>
> In a message dated Wed, 21 Aug 2002 9:18:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
writes:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi All,
> > >
> > >Despite the subject line, anyone can answer of course!
> > >
> > >The first question is about a design feature Bob uses in his power
> > >distribution designs in the
> > >book.
> > >When using the rat shack full wave rectifier bridge for feed to an
> > >"essential" bus, why not use
> > >both of the diodes
> > >whose cathodes end at the same terminal. I would guess slightly higher
> > >current capacity in
> > >addition to a degree of
> > >redundancy should one diode pop. There would be a minor increase in weight
> > >due to the inch long
> > >jumper cable/faston
> > >terminal on the main bus side, but are there other negatives I haven't
> > >considered?
> >
> > Sure. HEAT. The act of paralleling two devices does not double their
> > ability to reject heat when they're on the same heat sink. The fact that
> > you've sorta divided the current between two devices in the same package
> > relieves loading on the individual devices internally (But why bother?
> > They're
> > 25A devices running VERY lightly loaded anyhow) but doesn't improve on the
> > ability of the assembly to handle the power disipation.
> >
> >
> > >Second question: Is there a solid state, efficient alternative to the
> > >battery contactor. I hate
> > >to lose 2 amps to
> > >coil heating when my alternator only puts out 17A. I would think a heavy
> > >duty triac would work
> > >and only waste a few milliamps. Is the problem due to fear
> > >of reliability or spikes?
> > Not at this time. These devices can be built but they would be expensive.
> > For systems of limited alternator capacity, consider a manual battery
> > switch . . . perhaps operated with a push-pull bowden control like
> > the choke on older cars.
> >
> >
> > >Finally, most of the discussion I have seen about a/c wiring concerns
> > >power distribution with a
> > >bit of coax thrown in.
> > >Not much on signal wiring, yet many of the interconnect cables I have seen
> > >have been true rat's
> > >nests with many double-ups
> > >and splits in destinations.
> >
> >
> > Aside from routing encoder data to both transponder and a GPS
> > receiver, I can't think of many places were single single
> > sources drive more than one load. Can you be more specific as to
> > the architecture that would drive the "rats nest" appearance?
> >
> >
> > > Has anyone considered straight through cables to submini connectors
> > >with a wirewrap backplane?
> >
> > How about an etched circuit board with D-sub connectors soldered
> > to it? Wirewrap is a very poor production technology that was
> > briefly popular because it was friendly to both manual and automatic
> > assembly processes of the time. It's bulky, not very robust either
> > mechanically or environmentally.
> >
> >
> > >Now a comment (;-)
> > >In the recent discussion about 2 ga tefzel coated wire vs. welding cable,
> > >several people commented
> > >on the importance of
> > >tefzel safety. I submit a look at the big picture. The POC (products of
> > >combustion) from tefzel,
> > >once it ignites are still toxic.
> > >Tefzel more difficult to ignite and may not be self sustaining, but in an
> > >engine fire, all bets
> > >would be off. Personally I am going with ease of workability over toxicity
> > >for those 6 - 8" of
> > >heavy wire when I wire my firewall in a few weeks.
> >
> > Discussed many times on this list and elsewhere. Bureaucrats
> > are fond of protecting you from things that may never happen
> > while ignoring things that happen often. Tefzel is nice stuff
> > but in some places, not as practical as welding cable. In terms
> > of overall performance, they are (in my never humble opinion)
> > equal and much easier to work with.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > =============
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery and alternator questions |
Bob,
I've been using your book to design the electrical system for my RV-8, and
have found it very helpful. I'm planning a single battery-single
alternator system with vacuum gyros for occasional IFR use. I will use
fuse blocks for main, essential, and battery buses, with an electronic
ignition replacing the right mag and powered from the battery bus.
One question that I wasn't able to figure out from the book is how to size
the alternator? When I add up the various loads on my electrical system I
come out with something around 50 A (two 100 W lights, position lights,
strobes, pitot heat, transponder, single navcom, etc), not counting wire
losses or charging current for the battery.
You need to partition electrical load scenarios off into their
unique categories and total up loads for that category. For example,
in clouds IFR with pitot heat on, you don't run exterior lights.
Landing/Taxi lights and pitot heat are never needed simultaneously.
Do the calculations based on what things are operated during
Preflight, Taxi, Approach/Departure, day vfr cruise, night vfr
cruise, ifr cruise, and alternator-out operations (e-bus only loads).
I've yet to calculate a max continuous running load for an IFR capable
airplane that ran more than 30A. The 40A machine should be fine.
My rebuilt engine came with a Denso 40 A alternator, sold as a Canadian
Aero Motive 040AD. However, the alternator is supposed to deliver its 40A
at 5000 RPM. Based on a 9.75" starter pulley and 2.5" alternator pulley, I
calculate that the alternator will be turning 9000 or more RPM in cruise,
which should significantly increase the output. Is this alternator going
to be suffcient? (provided it doesn't burst into flames from turning so
fast...)
Turning an alternator faster does not increase it's maximum rated
output current. It DOES increase available current at low engine
speeds like preflight and taxi. Having the rotor finely balanced
like the B&C ND alternators will go a long way toward improving
service life.
The alternator has a built-in regulator, and the documentation claims
built-in overvoltage protection and there is a provision to hook up an
alternator warning light. Based on your book I take it that you'd still
recommend using external overvoltage protection?
Yes. Ignore the built in alternator failure warning light, add
external ov protection a-la Figure Z-24 and add active notification
of low voltage.
My other question concerns the Odyssey PC battery that Van's sells in their
catalog (manufactured by Hawker Energy). On the surface it looks great;
light weight (about 15 pounds) with plenty of cranking power. The lower
weight would let me put it on the firewall, rather than in the
tail. However, their literature says its a 16 AH battery, which would seem
to be a problem if I was depending on it after an alternator failure. This
battery is described as "absorbed electrolyte", does this mean its really
the same thing as the Concord RG only smaller?
Concord and lots of other folks make lots of sizes of
RG batteries. You need to size your battery such that you
can run en route endurance loads for how ever much fuel
you have aboard. This is an interval generally in the
3-4 hour range. Most of my readers can do what is necessary
with a 16 a.h. battery of which the Odyssey is only one
potential choice. See:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/battest.pdf
If you don't have the latest issue of the book you might
also want to review:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
and
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf
My personal choice for a battery is to buy it cheap and
replace it every year and not have to be concerned about
periodic battery capacity testing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
>In the pure analog world, you'll to switch
> between 14 and 18 wires from the indicator to the two radios.
> This take a 18 pole, double throw switch . . .
Could this be an application for those old computer printer switches? They
switch 25 inputs to either of 25 outputs.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Diodes on relay coils |
I have your book and seem to remember a while back an article on the
website about diodes on relay's coils to save the points.
I want to install the diodes on a bosch relay (#0 332 002 150) I have for
my hyd gear motor but in all the diagrams for the diodes no part #'s are
listed or sizing of diode is shown for the diode on the coil of the relay.
It is a 12volt system.
You may want to review
http://216.55.140.222/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
I looked at the digikey website and found there is a $#%# load of diodes
can you help with what size ??
I seem to remember an article on installing these on the website also a
while back but looked today and could not find it.
The diode rating is not critical but mechanical robustness
is something to consider. I favor the 3A devices in the
1N5400 series devices (sold by Radio Shack in blister
paks of 2 for about $1). Any voltage rating is fine.
You can see these device and a typical installation
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg
Thank you for your time
You're most welcome.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: troubleshooting wiring |
Hello Bob,
I have the Berkut 540 with your wiring scheme for dual ignitions,
alternators, no vac systems, etc. I think in the book rev I have it was
the Z-4.
You can download the latest version of that wiring diagram
with some errors corrected at:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
PROBLEM: My aux bus breaker on the panel is jumping out in flight. Also,
something is drawing so much power that my comm/gps Apollo SL60 unit is
dimming for lack of electrical power. It is on the AUX bus.
What voltage regulator are you using? Do you have a single point
ground system on the firewall? Do you have a voltmeter in the
system. What is the voltmeter reading? Does your system include
"crowbar" ov protection? How does the system behave . . . in other
words, does it operate okay most of the time. Does the breaker pop
when you're doing nothing else with the system or does it operate
when you're switching some other system on/off?
I don't understand what the breaker means? Too much current being drawn
from the AUX bus contactor? Where should I start?
Which contactor are you calling the AUX BUS contactor? Is
this the Aux battery master contactor or the cross-feed
contactor? Neither of these devices is capable of drawing
too much current and causing the problem you are experiencing.
Need more input. Let's get the questions above answered
and then see if we can deduce a plan of attack.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Alternators |
Bob:
I'm in the process of fitting out and wiring the panel on my RV-6A, and
have been studying your manual (October 2000). Way back, I purchased a 60A
alternator (Nippon Denso) from Van's, which has a built in regulator. I'd
like to modify the alternator per your Note 11, Appendix Z, i.e. to use an
external regulator. The alternator connector has three terminals, of which
only one is used and brought back to the panel. What would I have to do to
be able to use an external regulator?
Unless you are skilled and experienced in this modification,
I recommend you use external ov protection a-la Figure
Z-24. You might also find a local automotive ovehaul shop
that could do it for you but even then, there are some machining
steps and new hardware that needs to be installed to do it
really right.
By the way, you can update your book with downloads available
from our website at:
http://216.55.140.222/articles.html
Incidentally, I've tried to use the B&C web site for 'products' and cannot
gain access. Is it down?
We've had some network glitches over the past few days. I
think it's up and stable now.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
August 12, 2002 - August 25, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bb