AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bd
September 09, 2002 - September 18, 2002
| Subject: | Aerocomposites Prop |
Carl Coulter asked --
snipsnip
http://www.aerocomposites.com/html/index.html
I spoke with John Violette at OSH and was very impressed by his design
of this prop. It is so thin in cross-section it's amazing. They are
flight testing in on an RV-8, among others, and since I don't need a
prop until Fall of 03, I have the luxury of waiting for test results,
etc. Might be worth the extra money to some.
Ken Brooks
Roscoe, IL
RV-8 Panel and wiring
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetos and Electronic Ignition |
>
>
>I just hung my XP 0360 engine and am going to start the finish wiring
>soon. I am set up with a left magneto for the bottom cylinders and a
>lightspeed EI for the top cylinders.
>
>How do I tell if there is an impulse coupler on the left magneto?
If you took a magneto off the other side, compare with with
the one you left on. The mounting base thickness for an impulse
coupled mag is taller/thicker. Engines are generally supplied
with either an impulse coupled mag on the left side -or- a
dual point, "shower-o-sparks" mag in the left side. If one
has to choose between impulse coupled and shower-o-sparks,
get the later. It's a bit more complicated but a superior
performing mag for engine starting.
>If there is, should I turn the L MAG on for engine start?
Sure
>If there is ,could I alternate EI for start one time and the next start
>on L MAG?
If it makes you feel good.
>Could a procedure like this serve as a test for the L MAG?
When you do runups before take off, both ignitions
get tested.
>Does anyone have a good source of information on wiring with one EI and
>one MAG?
The AeroElectric Connection, Revision 10, page Z-10
which you can download at
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
or better yet, get the whole book at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition System input voltage? |
>
>Guys, I wrote Klaus Savier to inquire about the starting problems some
>have reported using his Lightspeed ignition system yesterday and here is
>his prompt response. I'd suggest humbly that if you have the Lightspeed
>system and it's giving you any trouble to take it up with Klaus first
>before too much speculation and "fixes" get underway....if he is for some
>reason unable or unwilling to help resolve it, then the internet forums
>can be used to further troubleshoot....
>
>I'm copying this to the RV-List since it is of interest to many RV'er's
>even though the discussion that prompted my questions to Klaus were on
>the Aeroelectric-List.
Don't know why you did this . . . don't think anyone mentioned
Lightspeed in any of the messages complaining of problems.
The featured system was the ElectroAir system from Jeff Rose.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brownout" during cranking... |
>
>I know what the specs say, but if you go into "Manuals" and then into "Trouble
>Shooting" and then "Starting Problems" it says that the Light Speed (I, II
>& II
>Plus) will provide an "accurate spark" as long as the input voltage is above 8
>volts.
>
>When the original Light Speed EI went into the Super 6 it was one of the first
>6-cyl installations and as the manual was not fully fleshed out at that time,
>our working "manual" was a telephone with Klaus at the other end of the line.
>After following this thread and checking the current wiring diagrams, I
>can see
>that a few changes are needed in my installation to correctly bring it up to
>"modern" standards.
>
>I like the idea of the capacitor (1 farad) and diode. Is the IN5400 diode a
>good choice for this application? When my mag craps out and I add the second
>EI, I'll be going to dual batteries.
IF you have an EI system that barfs during starter motor inrush
transients, then the capacitor and a 1N540x diode is just fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: encoder error |
>
>
>Anyone know why a new encoder would consistently report an altitude 500' low?
>I figure the 500' would mean that I wired it up wrong to the
>transponder,but it appears to be correct.
>Does the adjustment screws have this much corrective ability. Which one do
>I turn, the Hi or the Lo, and which way?
>Thanks again,
>Scott in Vancouver
Let the tech who does your pitot static test do this. The
HI/LO pots are interactive. Turning one affects the setting
of the other. There is a procedure for doing this at the time
your system is tested. If it's ALWAYS 500' off then it's
unlikely that the system is miswired or broke. It simply needs
some magic tweaking by someone who has the equipment to bring
it into agreement with your altimeter.
If you don't plan to have it check soon but want to use the
system, adjust only the LO pot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual, parallel batteries and chargers |
>
>
> >
> >
> > From the Batteries Plus website:
> >
> >"Don't mix a new and old battery. This will draw more power from the new
> >battery and shorten its life."
>
> B.S.
This was a pretty short answer . . . I was in the middle
of packing for the Clearwater seminar . . .
Please consider the following:
Batteries CHARGE on bus voltage, they have no way of knowing if
you have 1 or 1000 batteries on the bus. If they see 13.8 to 14.6
volts, they're happy.
Batteries DISCHARGE based on their internal resistance and
capacity. It is true that a "used" battery may have less
capacity or higher resistance than a "new" one of equal
specifications . . . but whatever energy the battery holds
is what it holds and ALL of it is available to whatever
tasked we've assigned to it.
Suppose every time you refueled your airplane, you threw
a ping-pong ball in the right tank. After a few years of
flying, one can expect the capacity of the right tank to
be significantly less than the left . . . this doesn't mean
that the left tank is at risk of "stress" for having to
supply more energy toward transporting you to point B. It
only means that right tank has less ability to contribute
to the effort.
The way we used dual batteries is to CHARGE from a
constant voltage bus and except for engine cranking,
we will DISCHARGE into separate loads totally isolated
from each other. Each battery is tasked with doing no
more than what we've planned for it and by system
maintenance and design we are CONFIDENT that the
batteries will be the most reliable sources of energy
for the job.
During engine cranking (5-10 seconds) it is true that
the heftier battery will supply more energy to the task
than the weaker one . . . but we don't care.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual, parallel batteries and chargers |
>
>
>I don't think this comment refers to any kind of architecture in
>which two batteries are used to provide extra redundancy. The
>circuits that Bob has described and drawn in ApdxZ that have 2
>batteries are only wired together in that they are in the same
>circuit. The circuits have diodes and contactors to seperate
>them - especially when any one item is misbehaving.
>
>If multiple batteries were to be wired together with the sole
>intent being to increase the Ah capacity of storage, then I think
>their recommendation to not mix battery ages makes sense.
How so?
> However,
>I still think this type of design is poor because it doesn't take
>advantage of the relatively cheap redundancy that an isolator can
>provide.
In what way does an isolator improve redundancy?
> In fact, I think I could argue that wiring two batteries
>together decreases overall reliability. This is so because a failure
>in either battery can jeopardize the perfomance of the whole system.
In way does a properly maintained battery present any
kind of risk to it's brothers?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Ground Wire |
>
>
>----- I'm starting to wire my RV-6a and am considering running the negative
>battery cable (#4)to one of the lower engine mount bolts and a cable from
>the engine to the engine mount instead of drilling another hole in the
>firewall for a copper or brass bolt and 2 wires, one battery - firewall, one
>firewall - engine mount.
>
>Is this sound electrical practice?
Engine mounts and associated hardware should be used to
hold the engine in the airplane and should not be part of
the electrical system. If an engine mount is supplied with
electrical bonding jumpers around the shock mounts, I would
remove them.
Engine needs for electrical connection are best
satisfied with a single, hefty bonding strap from
crankcase to single point, brass grounding bolt on
firewall that shares connection with the single point
ground for system components and if practical, the
(-) terminal of the battery.
If it were my RV-6, only the nav lights, landing lights,
pitot heat and strobe power supply would ground to airframe
locally . . . everything else goes to the magic ground
on the firewall.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| If 100 grounds are good, 10 grounds are better and |
| one ground is best yet . . . |
| - R. Nuckolls - |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Dual, parallel batteries and |
chargers
Bob, I have a hypothetical question in answer to your query: What
happens if one of the batteries develops an internal short which lowers
its output voltage significantly? I would have guessed that if the
failed battery is wired to another functional battery that the
difference in output voltage between the two would cause the more
charged battery to discharge its energy into the failed battery -at
least if the failure is from having a short -as unlikely as that might
be with RG batteries. Is that not right? If it is, then I still argue
that having the batteries wired together represents a possible
reliability reduction as compared to being able to isolate them with
switches (to seperate busses).
Maybe that I used the term isolator implies something that I didn't
intend. I meant to suggest the use of a system architecture like
appendix Z-12 from the 'Connection which allows the system to have
redundancy and extra Ah capacity.
Matt Prather
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Date: Monday, September 9, 2002 9:10 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual, parallel batteries and chargers
>
> >
> >
> >I don't think this comment refers to any kind of architecture in
> >which two batteries are used to provide extra redundancy. The
> >circuits that Bob has described and drawn in ApdxZ that have 2
> >batteries are only wired together in that they are in the same
> >circuit. The circuits have diodes and contactors to seperate
> >them - especially when any one item is misbehaving.
> >
> >If multiple batteries were to be wired together with the sole
> >intent being to increase the Ah capacity of storage, then I think
> >their recommendation to not mix battery ages makes sense.
>
> How so?
>
>
> > However,
> >I still think this type of design is poor because it doesn't take
> >advantage of the relatively cheap redundancy that an isolator can
> >provide.
>
> In what way does an isolator improve redundancy?
>
> > In fact, I think I could argue that wiring two batteries
> >together decreases overall reliability. This is so because a failure
> >in either battery can jeopardize the perfomance of the whole system.
>
> In way does a properly maintained battery present any
> kind of risk to it's brothers?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
> _-
>
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
!! NEW !!
> _-
>
List Related Information
> _-
>
=======================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Tyco-AMP PIDG Fastons now available fully insulated |
See
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodnews.asp?id=366
I'll check with Todd at B&C and see if we can shift their
Fast-On stocks to this new product.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Keyed Start Switch |
Does anyone know of a keyed start switch. Just a SPSD momentary contact
switch with a key (not the standard L/R/B/S keyed ignition switch).
Don't want the kids to be able to play pilot and accidentally crank the
prop. If I've got the key, it won't happen even if they are sitting in
the seat.
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Stewart" <davestewart(at)globalserve.net> |
| Subject: | Re: power supply location |
I'm building a 9A & after checking archives, put the same question to Gus at
Vans:
"Don't put the power pack within a couple of feet of the antenna or
you are asking for interference, we put it back in the fuse by the
bellcrank.The power pack is mounted to a sort of shelf riveted to the F-
907bulkhead and the F-929 rib. A couple of bent flanges stiffen it
up. Don't mount it directly to the skin"
I still haven't decided (current thinking is under platenutted baggage
floor?) but would very much like to hear how others have done it.
Dave 90252
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: power supply location
>
> I have a single unit Whelen power supply for strobes that I want to
> locate under the pilot seat aft. Is this a suitable location or will
> this be a source of noise for antennae, intercom, etc.
>
> Dave Ford
> RV6
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: "mag" drop with electronic ignition |
>
>The EI IS doing all the work! In my airplane (with a '98 LSE EI), with the EI
>on, performance data from Vx, Vy and top speed are completely unaffected as to
>the Bendix mag being on or off. RPM drop during run-up is -200
>rpm. After mag
>"rebuild" at 400 hrs, there's no change in performance data. Performance with
>the single mag, alone, is Horrible--it's like I have a 160 hp -360 or
>something.
Did anyone claim that the performance of your airplane would
change in any observable way?
EI does three marked things for us . . . (1) improved starting,
(2) you can use CHEAP plugs in the engine and (3) slightly improved
fuel specifics at low manifold pressures. Turbo charged engines
will never see a change in fuel specifics. Carburetor airplanes
will see perhaps 5% better fuel consumption at high altitude
cruise . . . the vast majority of us will never recover
the cost of a magneto change-out in favor of EI just for
fuel savings. Further, since 90% of engine performance
improvement comes from putting the FIRST system on, I
recommend that builders 'use-up' their mags before adding
the second EI system.
Given that EI does have control over spark advance, the
magneto RPM drop tests are meaningless . . . and yes,
if you have EI installed, it's only during full throttle
ops at low altitude that the magneto contributes anything
toward operation of the engine. As manifold pressure
goes down, EI spark advances and the mag is always firing
too late.
If someone told you that you can expect any increase in
horsepower or markedly lower operating costs for fuel
was either in error or blowing smoke . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries & other electrical stuff |
>
>Bob and others,
> Some other items you may consider: Wiring for a windshield defog fan,
>electronics cooling fan, and your annunciator lights and secondary comm.
Tom, not sure what you're suggesting. If you've observed that our
power distribution diagrams don't speak of these kinds of devices,
you're right. There are LOTS of systems one might consider adding
to your project that will run from a battery bus, main bus, aux
bus or e-bus. We don't show that range of choices on the diagrams . . .
rather just enough stuff to illustrate the philosophy of the
architecture.
I'd certainly be willing to offer an opinion as to where you
might get power for a device not listed on the drawings but
it's beyond the scope of the drawings to cover all the options.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jaye and Scott Jackson <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: encoder error |
OK, thanks Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: encoder error
>
> >
> >
> >Anyone know why a new encoder would consistently report an altitude 500'
low?
> >I figure the 500' would mean that I wired it up wrong to the
> >transponder,but it appears to be correct.
> >Does the adjustment screws have this much corrective ability. Which one
do
> >I turn, the Hi or the Lo, and which way?
> >Thanks again,
> >Scott in Vancouver
>
> Let the tech who does your pitot static test do this. The
> HI/LO pots are interactive. Turning one affects the setting
> of the other. There is a procedure for doing this at the time
> your system is tested. If it's ALWAYS 500' off then it's
> unlikely that the system is miswired or broke. It simply needs
> some magic tweaking by someone who has the equipment to bring
> it into agreement with your altimeter.
>
> If you don't plan to have it check soon but want to use the
> system, adjust only the LO pot.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Bus & Switch configuration |
After more study of Bob's Book and comments from the group, I'm getting a
better understanding of what could/should go on which bus and what
should/should not have switches. The system is for dual amp/dual battery; 1
mag/ 1 EI system. Here is the list. It's a bit long, but if anyone has any
more comments on it (potential missing items, different bus, switched etc.)
I'd love to hear.
On Main Bus:
Position Lights - on a spst switch
Strobe - on a spst switch
Taxi Lightes - on a spst switch
Landing Lights - on a spst switch
AutoPilot Servos - on a spst switch on stick
Fuel boost Priming Pump - on a momentary spst switch
CO2 Detector - portable or built in? - on a spst switch
AOA - on a spst switch
Pitot Heat - on a spst switch
Starter - on a button momentary spst Switch
Electric Trim Indicator (not the servo)
electronics cooling fan - On a spst switch
Essential Bus Items:
Panel Lighting (on a dimmer switch)
EFIS (primary flight instruments/ navigation/ engine
instruments) - On a spst switch
Flaps- on battery buss - no switch?
Electric Trim (not the indicator). no switch - (perhaps on
battery buss?)
amp/volt meter (one for each system) - on a spst switch
Audio Panel - use built in switch.
GPS/Com - use built in switch
Nav/Com - use built in switch
Transponder - use built in switch
annunciator lights - On a spst switch?
windshield defog fan - On a spst switch
Always On Primary Battery Bus:
Engine Electronic Ignition - On a spst Switch.
Primary Fuel Pump - On a spst switch
Clock/timer - not on a switch. Separate 9Volt Battery Power?
Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
Turn Coordinator (secondary flight instrument) - On a spst switch
Electric DG - on a spst switch
Electric AI - on a spst switch
Always On Aux Battery Bus:
Secondary Fuel Pump - on a spst switch.
Hobbs - controlled by an oil pressure switch (no switch on the
panel).
Accessory Electric adapters (cigarette lighter type)- both on the
same spst Switch
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chuck Kluenker <Kluenker(at)3di.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Please Un-subscribe |
Great information, just too much to digest.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Pack [mailto:jpack(at)igs3.com]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bus & Switch configuration
After more study of Bob's Book and comments from the group, I'm getting a
better understanding of what could/should go on which bus and what
should/should not have switches. The system is for dual amp/dual battery; 1
mag/ 1 EI system. Here is the list. It's a bit long, but if anyone has any
more comments on it (potential missing items, different bus, switched etc.)
I'd love to hear.
On Main Bus:
Position Lights - on a spst switch
Strobe - on a spst switch
Taxi Lightes - on a spst switch
Landing Lights - on a spst switch
AutoPilot Servos - on a spst switch on stick
Fuel boost Priming Pump - on a momentary spst switch
CO2 Detector - portable or built in? - on a spst switch
AOA - on a spst switch
Pitot Heat - on a spst switch
Starter - on a button momentary spst Switch
Electric Trim Indicator (not the servo)
electronics cooling fan - On a spst switch
Essential Bus Items:
Panel Lighting (on a dimmer switch)
EFIS (primary flight instruments/ navigation/ engine
instruments) - On a spst switch
Flaps- on battery buss - no switch?
Electric Trim (not the indicator). no switch - (perhaps on
battery buss?)
amp/volt meter (one for each system) - on a spst switch
Audio Panel - use built in switch.
GPS/Com - use built in switch
Nav/Com - use built in switch
Transponder - use built in switch
annunciator lights - On a spst switch?
windshield defog fan - On a spst switch
Always On Primary Battery Bus:
Engine Electronic Ignition - On a spst Switch.
Primary Fuel Pump - On a spst switch
Clock/timer - not on a switch. Separate 9Volt Battery Power?
Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
Turn Coordinator (secondary flight instrument) - On a spst switch
Electric DG - on a spst switch
Electric AI - on a spst switch
Always On Aux Battery Bus:
Secondary Fuel Pump - on a spst switch.
Hobbs - controlled by an oil pressure switch (no switch on the
panel).
Accessory Electric adapters (cigarette lighter type)- both on the
same spst Switch
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jim
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Brownout" during cranking... |
I think I already put my 2 cents in on this thread but if not here is my
experience with LSE and a mag. We replaced 1 mag with the LEE on a carb.
Glasair1. We always started with the mag off and the EI on. Single
battery. We never had any problems with kick back or any other strt
problems. We also experienced a slight improvement in fuel economy on
high altitude trips. Also a slightly improved takeoff performance from
our 3000 ft elevation strip.
Hope this helps .
Jim Robinson
N79R
-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:45:36 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Brownout" during cranking...
>
>
> >
> >
> >I have a Lightspeed EI and a mag without an impulse coupling, so I
> always
> >start on the EI. I also have separate toggle switches for each
> ignition
> >system and a push button starter. My starting procedure is to press
> and
> >hold the starter button then switch on the EI. At 75 hours I have
> >experienced no kick back or starting problems. The battery is still
> >relatively fresh, so problems could show up later when the battery
> starts
> >showing some age.
>
> This is a good data point that perhaps only demonstrates
> that one can expect a higher average battery voltage AFTER
> the starter motor is running and its inrush current event
> has passed. Take care, however, lest we infer that this
> is either necessary or even just-a-good-thing-to-do with
> respect to the operation of the ignition system.
>
> It's data points like this that once filtered through the
> ol' "gossip on the telephone" game that take on status
> of sage advice. As I've suggested many times in the past
> on this and other topics with respect to component
> operations on airplanes. Let's work to understand if
> and why any component should require extraordinary care
> in its use -AND- then be good consumers and badger the
> socks off of suppliers that are not doing a good job.
> I don't care how well any given product performs in
> cruising flight if it takes extra-ordinary attention
> from the pilot just to get it going -OR- to avoid
> errant behavior that risks any kind of damage.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
> On Main Bus:
>
> Position Lights - on a spst switch
>
> Strobe - on a spst switch
I put these together on a double throw. First position is Position lights,
second position is both.
> Taxi Lightes - on a spst switch
>
> Landing Lights - on a spst switch
I put these together on a double throw. First position is taxi/landing
lights, second position is flashing.
> AutoPilot Servos - on a spst switch on stick
My DFC250 TruTrack autopilot on/off is switched to my stick and I have a
power spst on the panel. I put this on my essential bus.
> Fuel boost Priming Pump - on a momentary spst switch
I put the bosst pump and primer together on a double throw. First position
is boost pump, second momentary position is both.
> CO2 Detector - portable or built in? - on a spst switch
Don't have one.
> AOA - on a spst switch
Mine isn't switched and is on the essential bus
> Pitot Heat - on a spst switch
I did the same
> Starter - on a button momentary spst Switch
I used a push button
> Electric Trim Indicator (not the servo)
>
> electronics cooling fan - On a spst switch
Mine isn't switched
> Essential Bus Items:
>
> Panel Lighting (on a dimmer switch)
Mine is on the main bus. I have a switched gooseneck on the essential.
> EFIS (primary flight instruments/ navigation/ engine
> instruments) - On a spst switch
Mine isn't switched
> Flaps- on battery buss - no switch?
Mine is on the main buss and is not switched
>
> Electric Trim (not the indicator). no switch - (perhaps on
> battery buss?)
Mine is on the main buss
> amp/volt meter (one for each system) - on a spst switch
Mine is not switched except that I use a switch to go from the main
alternator to the SD-8 backup.
> Audio Panel - use built in switch.
>
> GPS/Com - use built in switch
>
> Nav/Com - use built in switch
>
> Transponder - use built in switch
I did the same
> annunciator lights - On a spst switch?
I don't have.
> windshield defog fan - On a spst switch
Mine is not switched and is on the main buss
> Always On Primary Battery Bus:
>
> Engine Electronic Ignition - On a spst Switch.
I did the same
>
> Primary Fuel Pump - On a spst switch
Mine is on the essential buss
>
> Clock/timer - not on a switch. Separate 9Volt Battery Power?
>
> Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
I did the same
>
> Turn Coordinator (secondary flight instrument) - On a spst switch
>
> Electric DG - on a spst switch
>
> Electric AI - on a spst switch
>
I put these on the essential buss
> Always On Aux Battery Bus:
>
> Secondary Fuel Pump - on a spst switch.
>
> Hobbs - controlled by an oil pressure switch (no switch on the
> panel).
>
> Accessory Electric adapters (cigarette lighter type)- both on the
> same spst Switch
>
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Coax Cable Stripping |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Gabe and Marisol Ferrer"
"Anyone have a good method for removing the
insulation from coax cable? I've been using a exacto knife to reach the bare
wire. In order to install the crimp pin. Can't always get it right on the
first try. Thanks in advance.
Gabe A Ferrer>>
9/9/2002
Hello Gabe, Here is my recommendation. Go to Radio Shack and buy two Deluxe
Coax Cable Strippers, Part Number 278-248. These strippers each have two
adjustable depth cutting blades and a variable coax size insert.
In order to get the results that you want the key is to: 1) Disassemble one
or both of the strippers and remove one of the blades. 2) Run multiple trial
cuts on a short piece of the coax making blade / insert adjustments until you
get just the results that you want.
It will take several attempts using this trial and adjustment technique and
you may wind up with two single cut strippers, but you can achieve precisely
the depth of cut that you want. Realize that the strip of the final
insulation surrounding the center wire can be made with a more conventional
properly sized wire stripper.
For conventional wire stripping Klein Tools sells an inexpensive wire
stripper (Cat # 1004 with spring opening or #1003 without spring opening).
The value of this stripper lies in the fact that it has an adjustable, but
positive stop. Again the key to successfull use of this tool is to make
multiple test strips on the wire being used until you get the depth of
insulation cut adjusted just the way you want it.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
What do people think about including a cockpit flood, powered
off a different bus to backup the panel lights? At least then
you might not be stuck with trying to talk to ATC with a flashlight
between your teeth.
I'm not sure I'd like having everything you have listed on the
always hot bus. Having to turn off the secondary gps/com and all
the backup flight instruments might be more chance of leaving
something on. I realize placing them behind one of the battery
feed switches opens them to single point of failure, but you do
have two...
I don't know if I'd put a switch on the panel anunciators. Having
a defeat and push-to-test designed-in is probably not a bad thing,
however. Part of the before takeoff checks can include lighting
all of the anunciators with a push to test - just to make sure the
lights work.
Also, why do you need switches to turn on and off the volt/am meters?
Can you get away with having just the meters behind each battery feed
switch? Do the meters need to function when the battery switches are
off?
Matt-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
Date: Monday, September 9, 2002 11:20 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bus & Switch configuration
>
> After more study of Bob's Book and comments from the group, I'm
> getting a
> better understanding of what could/should go on which bus and what
> should/should not have switches. The system is for dual amp/dual
> battery; 1
> mag/ 1 EI system. Here is the list. It's a bit long, but if
> anyone has any
> more comments on it (potential missing items, different bus,
> switched etc.)
> I'd love to hear.
>
>
> On Main Bus:
>
> Position Lights - on a spst switch
>
> Strobe - on a spst switch
>
> Taxi Lightes - on a spst switch
>
> Landing Lights - on a spst switch
>
> AutoPilot Servos - on a spst switch on stick
>
> Fuel boost Priming Pump - on a momentary spst switch
>
> CO2 Detector - portable or built in? - on a spst switch
>
> AOA - on a spst switch
>
> Pitot Heat - on a spst switch
>
> Starter - on a button momentary spst Switch
>
> Electric Trim Indicator (not the servo)
>
> electronics cooling fan - On a spst switch
>
>
> Essential Bus Items:
>
> Panel Lighting (on a dimmer switch)
>
> EFIS (primary flight instruments/ navigation/ engine
> instruments) - On a spst switch
>
> Flaps- on battery buss - no switch?
>
> Electric Trim (not the indicator). no switch - (perhaps on
> battery buss?)
>
> amp/volt meter (one for each system) - on a spst switch
>
> Audio Panel - use built in switch.
>
> GPS/Com - use built in switch
>
> Nav/Com - use built in switch
>
> Transponder - use built in switch
>
> annunciator lights - On a spst switch?
>
> windshield defog fan - On a spst switch
>
>
> Always On Primary Battery Bus:
>
> Engine Electronic Ignition - On a spst Switch.
>
> Primary Fuel Pump - On a spst switch
>
> Clock/timer - not on a switch. Separate 9Volt Battery Power?
>
> Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
>
> Turn Coordinator (secondary flight instrument) - On a spst
> switch
> Electric DG - on a spst switch
>
> Electric AI - on a spst switch
>
>
> Always On Aux Battery Bus:
>
> Secondary Fuel Pump - on a spst switch.
>
> Hobbs - controlled by an oil pressure switch (no switch on
> thepanel).
>
> Accessory Electric adapters (cigarette lighter type)- both
> on the
> same spst Switch
>
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
>
> _-
>
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
!! NEW !!
> _-
>
List Related Information
> _-
>
=======================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
More thoughts...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Date: Monday, September 9, 2002 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus & Switch configuration
>
> > On Main Bus:
> >
> > Position Lights - on a spst switch
> >
> > Strobe - on a spst switch
>
> I put these together on a double throw. First position is Position
> lights,second position is both.
>
I like the idea of being able to run the strobes in the day without
having the position lights on. I don't think you can get away with
only one switch here if you desire that capability, since there are
times when you might like to have the position lights on without the
strobes (in the clouds?).
> > Always On Primary Battery Bus:
> >
.
.
.
> > Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
>
Woops.... I am a dork. I didn't see that this was for your MEMORY on
the Com/GPS. It makes sense now.
Matt Prather.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Coax Cable Stripping |
Having a dedicated stripper tool is great, but having a good technique
for stripping with just a knife is good too. An instrumentation tech
where I used to work showed me a method for stripping wire that seems a
little safer and more effective than just rolling the wire between the
blade and your thumb. If you take the wire/cable, and bend
it away from the side you are cutting, it puts tension on that section
of insulation. If you just 'touch' the blade to the outside of the
radius of the bend in the location you want to strip, most insulation
just opens right up. I can usually strip anything in two or three nicks
of the blade, and cutting strands can be avoided Certainly not as nice
as having a dedicated stripper, but cheaper.
Matt Prather.
----- Original Message -----
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Monday, September 9, 2002 12:49 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Coax Cable Stripping
>
> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Gabe and Marisol
> Ferrer"
> "Anyone have a good method for removing
> the
> insulation from coax cable? I've been using a exacto knife to reach
....
> positive stop. Again the key to successfull use of this tool is to
> make
> multiple test strips on the wire being used until you get the depth
> of
> insulation cut adjusted just the way you want it.
>
> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Angel Gomez <angel(at)datatekcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
If your concern is to avoid backup lighting, why not mount an array of LEDs
which are always on. During they day, the light output would be negligible.
In the dark, they would contribute to the panel lighting at low levels.
They now come in designer colors of your choice, and controllers that will
operate down to 1 volt.
Angel
>
>What do people think about including a cockpit flood, powered
>off a different bus to backup the panel lights? At least then
>you might not be stuck with trying to talk to ATC with a flashlight
>between your teeth.
>
>I'm not sure I'd like having everything you have listed on the
>always hot bus. Having to turn off the secondary gps/com and all
>the backup flight instruments might be more chance of leaving
>something on. I realize placing them behind one of the battery
>feed switches opens them to single point of failure, but you do
>have two...
>
>I don't know if I'd put a switch on the panel anunciators. Having
>a defeat and push-to-test designed-in is probably not a bad thing,
>however. Part of the before takeoff checks can include lighting
>all of the anunciators with a push to test - just to make sure the
>lights work.
>
>Also, why do you need switches to turn on and off the volt/am meters?
>Can you get away with having just the meters behind each battery feed
>switch? Do the meters need to function when the battery switches are
>off?
>
>Matt-
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
>Date: Monday, September 9, 2002 11:20 am
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bus & Switch configuration
>
> >
> > After more study of Bob's Book and comments from the group, I'm
> > getting a
> > better understanding of what could/should go on which bus and what
> > should/should not have switches. The system is for dual amp/dual
> > battery; 1
> > mag/ 1 EI system. Here is the list. It's a bit long, but if
> > anyone has any
> > more comments on it (potential missing items, different bus,
> > switched etc.)
> > I'd love to hear.
> >
> >
> > On Main Bus:
> >
> > Position Lights - on a spst switch
> >
> > Strobe - on a spst switch
> >
> > Taxi Lightes - on a spst switch
> >
> > Landing Lights - on a spst switch
> >
> > AutoPilot Servos - on a spst switch on stick
> >
> > Fuel boost Priming Pump - on a momentary spst switch
> >
> > CO2 Detector - portable or built in? - on a spst switch
> >
> > AOA - on a spst switch
> >
> > Pitot Heat - on a spst switch
> >
> > Starter - on a button momentary spst Switch
> >
> > Electric Trim Indicator (not the servo)
> >
> > electronics cooling fan - On a spst switch
> >
> >
> > Essential Bus Items:
> >
> > Panel Lighting (on a dimmer switch)
> >
> > EFIS (primary flight instruments/ navigation/ engine
> > instruments) - On a spst switch
> >
> > Flaps- on battery buss - no switch?
> >
> > Electric Trim (not the indicator). no switch - (perhaps on
> > battery buss?)
> >
> > amp/volt meter (one for each system) - on a spst switch
> >
> > Audio Panel - use built in switch.
> >
> > GPS/Com - use built in switch
> >
> > Nav/Com - use built in switch
> >
> > Transponder - use built in switch
> >
> > annunciator lights - On a spst switch?
> >
> > windshield defog fan - On a spst switch
> >
> >
> > Always On Primary Battery Bus:
> >
> > Engine Electronic Ignition - On a spst Switch.
> >
> > Primary Fuel Pump - On a spst switch
> >
> > Clock/timer - not on a switch. Separate 9Volt Battery Power?
> >
> > Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
> >
> > Turn Coordinator (secondary flight instrument) - On a spst
> > switch
> > Electric DG - on a spst switch
> >
> > Electric AI - on a spst switch
> >
> >
> > Always On Aux Battery Bus:
> >
> > Secondary Fuel Pump - on a spst switch.
> >
> > Hobbs - controlled by an oil pressure switch (no switch on
> > thepanel).
> >
> > Accessory Electric adapters (cigarette lighter type)- both
> > on the
> > same spst Switch
> >
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > _-
> >
>- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> > _-
> >
>!! NEW !!
> > _-
> >
>List Related Information
> > _-
> >
>=======================================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator noise in comm |
>
>I finally got my shiny new Microair 760
>installed in my panel, and now I've got
>a *heck* of a howl coming from my turn
>coordinator. I've tried moving grounds
>and adding filters, but neither worked
>(the filter helped a little, but not enough).
>While messing around last night I found that
>if I touch both ends of a short loop of wire
>to the TC connector barrel (the male part
>attached to the TC case), the whine disappears
>almost completely. Can someone explain why
>this might make a difference? Does this point
>to some other problem/fix, or should I just make
>up a wire loop with *big* lugs and fit it to the
>TC?
I'm having trouble visualizing where your
connections are being made and how they're
made. You say "both" ends of the wire to
what appears to an electrically common part.
I presume you're talking about the metal
barrel of the connector that attached
to the back of the T/C.
If touching the case or outer housing of
any part affects the noise, it suggests
that the noise is being radiated from
the housing. What kind of airplane are
we talking about. Metal instrument panel?
Is the panel grounded (mounted) to the
airframe while you're running the experiment?
Try touching one end of a wire to a mounted
panel and the other end to the barrel of the
connector. It may be that there is a molded
plastic bezel ring that makes up the front
attach fittings of the T/C that do not
ground the case to the panel when the T/C
is installed.
I don't recall which of the two pins in
a T/C connector is the power ground pin.
Try splicing a wire into the ground wire
to the T/C power connector's wire bundle
and put a lug on it. Put the lug on the
bundle support clamp screw on the connector
like so:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Shell_Ground.jpg
This may well be the permanent electrical
equivalent to the experimental solution you've
observed.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wig wag and switches |
I have the same setup Barry,
My plan is to wire with 2 switches.
Switch 1 is 3 position. Off/Taxi/Landing&Taxi
Switch 2 is 2 position. Off/Wig-Wag
This has the benifit of down being off for all switches and gives the ability to
run just 1 light during long taxi at low RPM without draining the battery.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Wiring...
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: barry pote <barrypote(at)comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:27:19 -0400
>
>Keeping with the Lectric Bob idea of keep it simple, I want to use as
>few switches as I can.
>
>Circumstances:
>
>1. Two landing lights are installed. One of them aimed slightly down
>from the other, for different landing attitudes, but more importantly,
>to be used as a taxi light.
>
>2. Bob Haan wigwag unit to be used on both lights during approach.
>
>3. Just before landing, wig wag off. Both landing lights on.
>
>4. Taxi with the one landing light (the one pointed down a little).
>
>First, is this a proper procedure?
>
>Second, How can I accomplish this with the fewest number of Bob's S700
>switches?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: power supply location |
I didn't want to do the screw in baggage floor, so I mounted much like Gus said.
I made 2 small triangles that I riveted to the bellcrank support rib behind
the rear baggage wall. It allows easy access for service, easy access to the wire
chase to route forward to the wings and rear to the tail.
I could photo it if you needed.
- Andy
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Dave Stewart" <davestewart(at)globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:55:44 -0400
>
>I'm building a 9A & after checking archives, put the same question to Gus at
>Vans:
>
>"Don't put the power pack within a couple of feet of the antenna or
>you are asking for interference, we put it back in the fuse by the
>bellcrank.The power pack is mounted to a sort of shelf riveted to the F-
>907bulkhead and the F-929 rib. A couple of bent flanges stiffen it
>up. Don't mount it directly to the skin"
>
>I still haven't decided (current thinking is under platenutted baggage
>floor?) but would very much like to hear how others have done it.
>
>Dave 90252
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
>To: "aeroelectric-list"
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: power supply location
>
>
>>
>> I have a single unit Whelen power supply for strobes that I want to
>> locate under the pilot seat aft. Is this a suitable location or will
>> this be a source of noise for antennae, intercom, etc.
>>
>> Dave Ford
>> RV6
>>
>>
>http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank, Dan" <DFrank(at)dfwairport.com> |
| Subject: | Power Sonic Battery |
Is anyone on the list successfully using a Power Sonic PS-12180NB
(www.power-sonic.com) battery in their RV. I purchased one of these a
couple of years ago and have been using it to smoke test the electrical
system as I have been completing the systems. Well, it was time for it to
perform this weekend for the first engine start and it was quite sluggish.
I charged the battery this last week prior to the start so I thought I would
be fine. Is it this battery's performance or do I have the wrong battery
for the 0-360? I don't want to spend $50 replacing this battery if I need
to spend the $120 to get the Odyssey battery.
Thanks in advance,
Dan Frank, RV-8 first flight sometime soon
http://n808vr.homestead.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
>>Bob,
>> Wouldn't four 4-pole ice cubes be a lot less expensive ?
>>Larry Mac Donald
>perhaps . . . but harder to lay out on double-sided board.
>Just published the corrected version using DPDT relays
>at http://216.55.140.222/9008
>Bob . . .
I have the same switching problem some others have raised --- two radios
and one nav indicator. The relay board looks like an elegant great
solution. Having successfully built a microEncoder, I feel like I might be
able to put one together without zapping anything important. As an
alternative, I found a company that sells custom-made 18 pole (or 20 pole,
or whatever you want) rotary switches. See
http://www.electro-nc.com/. I'm told a two-position switch would cost
around $130, depending on what I could get out of the distributor (though
the first quote was $239!) Beyond the price, I am interested in the merits
of using this type of switch versus the relay board that you've laid
out. Should I expect a difference in reliability? Secondly, if I decide
to go the relay switch route, is the lay-out on the website ready to
go? Maybe I would be the beta-tester. Finally, what in the world are
"ice cubes?" Thanks much,
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Barnes" <skytop(at)megsinet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: power supply location |
I scratched my head on this one for some time. In the end, I mounted it on
the RH aft baggage side. The wires come out on the left. Now after looking
at it, wish I had mounted the electrical pointing down.
I like the idea of one builder - to put it in aft of the baggage
bulkhead, but I only had ten feet of wire to work with at the time and that
is what it takes to run from the wing roots to the box located in the
baggage compartment.
Tom Barnes -6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: power supply location
>
> I have a single unit Whelen power supply for strobes that I want to
> locate under the pilot seat aft. Is this a suitable location or will
> this be a source of noise for antennae, intercom, etc.
>
> Dave Ford
> RV6
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <nauga(at)brick.net> |
| Subject: | TC noise in comm |
> You say "both" ends of the wire to
> what appears to an electrically common part.
> I presume you're talking about the metal
> barrel of the connector that attached
> to the back of the T/C.
Yup, that's exactly what I mean. It's
an RV-4, metal panel, and the panel itself is
grounded. If I take a length of wire and
touch one end to the TC connector barrel and
the other end to any of a number of airframe
grounds the noise persists. If I touch the other
end of the wire to the TC connector or even to the
wire itself close to the connector the noise
all but disappears. It's repeatable and predictable,
and I'm not kidding.
I'll try the ground solution you posted, since I didn't
try a ground directly from the TC ground pin to the case
(case to ground block didn't work, but what the heck).
If that doesn't work, I plan on soldering both ends
of a wire loop to a brass washer and threading that over
the connector barrel. Not too elegant, but my 'experiments'
showed that it might be effective. I just wonder why.
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)brick.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual, parallel batteries and chargers |
>
>Bob, I have a hypothetical question in answer to your query: What
>happens if one of the batteries develops an internal short which lowers
>its output voltage significantly?
Unless you plan to use flooded batteries and flog 'em
until they flake out and short a cell, this isn't going
to be a problem. RG batteries don't short cells and besides,
you should be replacing them LONG before they've deteriorated
to the next-to-useless condition that risks shorted cells.
> I would have guessed that if the
>failed battery is wired to another functional battery that the
>difference in output voltage between the two would cause the more
>charged battery to discharge its energy into the failed battery -at
>least if the failure is from having a short -as unlikely as that might
>be with RG batteries. Is that not right?
Depends on what the alternator is doing. You wouldn't have two
batteries tied together (both contactors closed) unless the
alternator is running. Standard alternator-out ops is to open
both battery contactors and then assign each battery to a dedicated task.
If you experienced a shorted cell in an overworked flooded battery
while in-flight, the bus voltage may drop below the low volts warning
value but I doubt it would stay there for long. The alternator would
go into full output operation. The loadmeter would show an extraordinary
output value. One could turn batteries off one at a time to see
which one had become a 10v battery on a 14v bus.
But, since I'm sure you're interested in best possible performance
from your system, a compliment of RG batteries (swapped out regularly
to insure minimum levels of capacity) will make this scenario something
that happens only to someone else . .
> If it is, then I still argue
>that having the batteries wired together represents a possible
>reliability reduction as compared to being able to isolate them with
>switches (to seperate busses).
. . . that's exactly what we do. Each battery has it's own
contactor.
>Maybe that I used the term isolator implies something that I didn't
>intend. I meant to suggest the use of a system architecture like
>appendix Z-12 from the 'Connection which allows the system to have
>redundancy and extra Ah capacity.
Auxiliary batteries should be added per Figure Z-30 such that
the pilot has control over it's attachment to the bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
>
>After more study of Bob's Book and comments from the group, I'm getting a
>better understanding of what could/should go on which bus and what
>should/should not have switches. The system is for dual amp/dual battery; 1
>mag/ 1 EI system. Here is the list. It's a bit long, but if anyone has any
>more comments on it (potential missing items, different bus, switched etc.)
>I'd love to hear.
>On Main Bus:
>
> Position Lights - on a spst switch
>
> Strobe - on a spst switch
>
> Taxi Lightes - on a spst switch
>
> Landing Lights - on a spst switch
>
> AutoPilot Servos - on a spst switch on stick
>
> Fuel boost Priming Pump - on a momentary spst switch
>
> CO2 Detector - portable or built in? - on a spst switch
Why a switch?
> AOA - on a spst switch
Why a switch?
> Pitot Heat - on a spst switch
>
> Starter - on a button momentary spst Switch
>
> Electric Trim Indicator (not the servo)
>
> electronics cooling fan - On a spst switch
Why a switch?
>Essential Bus Items:
If you have a dual-battery/dual-alternator system like Figure Z-14
then you don't need an essential bus.
> Panel Lighting (on a dimmer switch)
>
> EFIS (primary flight instruments/ navigation/ engine
>instruments) - On a spst switch
When would you ever want to turn this off? Why
a switch?
> Flaps- on battery buss - no switch?
On main bus . . .
> Electric Trim (not the indicator). no switch - (perhaps on
>battery buss?)
>
> amp/volt meter (one for each system) - on a spst switch
Why a switch?
> Audio Panel - use built in switch.
>
> GPS/Com - use built in switch
>
> Nav/Com - use built in switch
>
> Transponder - use built in switch
>
> annunciator lights - On a spst switch?
Why a switch?
> windshield defog fan - On a spst switch
>
>
>Always On Primary Battery Bus:
>
> Engine Electronic Ignition - On a spst Switch.
>
> Primary Fuel Pump - On a spst switch
>
> Clock/timer - not on a switch. Separate 9Volt Battery Power?
>
> Com/GPS memory power (not on a switch)
>
> Turn Coordinator (secondary flight instrument) - On a spst switch
Put on aux bus. Why a switch?
> Electric DG - on a spst switch
Put on aux bus. Why a switch?
> Electric AI - on a spst switch
Put on aux bus. Why a switch?
>Always On Aux Battery Bus:
>
> Secondary Fuel Pump - on a spst switch.
>
> Hobbs - controlled by an oil pressure switch (no switch on the
>panel).
>
> Accessory Electric adapters (cigarette lighter type)- both on the
>same spst Switch
>
>
>Any suggestions?
You mention a lot of switches that appear to be redundant to
existing control switches in addition to switches that don't
seem to be necessary.
I'd put all the navigation/avionics equipment on the aux bus,
everything else on main bus except for electrically dependent engine
loads which should be distributed on the battery busses.
This leaves you a few things like hobbs, clocks, dome lights, etc
to distribute on battery buses as well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed Start Switch |
>
>Does anyone know of a keyed start switch. Just a SPSD momentary contact
>switch with a key (not the standard L/R/B/S keyed ignition switch).
>Don't want the kids to be able to play pilot and accidentally crank the
>prop. If I've got the key, it won't happen even if they are sitting in
>the seat.
>
>- Jim
How about putting the start button out of sight
on a bracket just behind and above the lower lip
of the instrument panel? Keyed switches are a pain
in the arse . . . some simple adjustments with
consideration to human factors should give you
equal or better protection from what should be
a rare event anyhow.
May I suggest another safeguard for which I
can personally attest to great success:
"Kids, whether it's the kitchen stove, things
you plug in the wall, sharp things in the
drawers, daddy's tools, lawn mowers,
cars -AND- the airplane are NOT children's
toys. Touch them without daddy's permission and
supervision and you are dead meat."
My kids learned to use all those things
responsibly at appropriate times and I didn't
have to keep a big ring of keys in my pocket.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed Start Switch |
Your local auto parts store probably has this part in stock.
> Does anyone know of a keyed start switch. Just a SPSD momentary contact
> switch with a key (not the standard L/R/B/S keyed ignition switch).
> Don't want the kids to be able to play pilot and accidentally crank the
> prop. If I've got the key, it won't happen even if they are sitting in
> the seat.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent/Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed Start Switch |
NAPA stores sell a keyed ACC-OFF-ON-START switch you might be able to use of you
just want to make sure the starter is ony actuated with a key. I think it uses
a 5/8" hole in the dash. Inexpensive. The ACC and ON positions would be
unused.
--Kent A.
Jim Pack wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a keyed start switch. Just a SPSD momentary contact
> switch with a key (not the standard L/R/B/S keyed ignition switch).
> Don't want the kids to be able to play pilot and accidentally crank the
> prop. If I've got the key, it won't happen even if they are sitting in
> the seat.
>
> - Jim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent/Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | LEDs and the B&C LR3B regulator |
Bob,
I saved an old email where you advised a guy using an LED to show low voltage
on
the B&C LR3B-14 regulator to put a 180 ohm resistor parallel to the LED, then select
a series resistor to produce 50-30ma at 11.5 volts (220 to 390 ohms) when the lamp
is lit.
Sorry, but this is over my head. I have the same problem of the LED staying
on
all the time. I already have a resistor between the LR3B and the LED to adapt
the
LED to 14.4V system power. I figured I just needed a substitute a bigger resistor.
For the benefit of the electronically impaired, can you explain this again refering
to the wiring diagram for the LR3B? Thanks. I wired my Cozy using your book.
It
sure saved me a lot of head-scratching.
--Kent Ashton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
I'd like reports about access to the website at
http://www.aeroelectric.com
I can't get at the machine either by browser or
file transfer protocols but I can get a reponse if
I "ping" the machine. I can also access other web pages
on the machine. I'm wondering if I have a regional
network problem or if everyone is having a problem.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob,
Works fine for me in Florida.
John Slade
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:00 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Server problems
>
>
> III"
>
> I'd like reports about access to the website at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
> I can't get at the machine either by browser or
> file transfer protocols but I can get a reponse if
> I "ping" the machine. I can also access other web pages
> on the machine. I'm wondering if I have a regional
> network problem or if everyone is having a problem.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed Start Switch |
> Keyed switches are a pain in the arse
Why?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Server problems |
No problem here. I just accessed it.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Server problems
>
> I'd like reports about access to the website at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
> I can't get at the machine either by browser or
> file transfer protocols but I can get a reponse if
> I "ping" the machine. I can also access other web pages
> on the machine. I'm wondering if I have a regional
> network problem or if everyone is having a problem.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Stewart <siinc(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Server problems |
No problems from AZ.
Don
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> I'd like reports about access to the website at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
> I can't get at the machine either by browser or
> file transfer protocols but I can get a reponse if
> I "ping" the machine. I can also access other web pages
> on the machine. I'm wondering if I have a regional
> network problem or if everyone is having a problem.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Britt Jensen" <dbjensen(at)thebigmouse.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Server problems |
Bob:
I can get there via my DSL from Earthlink in Valparaiso, In.
The site comes up fine...
Regards,
Britt Jensen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Server problems
>
> I'd like reports about access to the website at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
> I can't get at the machine either by browser or
> file transfer protocols but I can get a reponse if
> I "ping" the machine. I can also access other web pages
> on the machine. I'm wondering if I have a regional
> network problem or if everyone is having a problem.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Keyed Start Switch |
>
> > Keyed switches are a pain in the arse
>Why?
Because you need keys to operate them. Keys get
lost. Keys are often still in your pocket AFTER
you've strapped in and closed the doors. Keys
do not protect an airplane from being stolen.
Only piston-singles even use keys for the
ignition switches and many use ordinary switches.
If one can deduce a means of operating a machine
such that whatever meager benefits for keys
are satisfied without keys, I think it's time
well spent.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Starter Contactor Draw |
Bob, or anyone who knows,
Any idea of the current in the line to engage a starter you sell? I'm
wondering if the switches in the Infinity can handle that without a relay
(<6A@12v).
Russ
HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
> > > Keyed switches are a pain in the arse
>>Why?
> Because you need keys to operate them. Keys get
> lost. Keys are often still in your pocket AFTER
> you've strapped in and closed the doors.
I think I just became a convert. ALMOST EVERYTIME I fly, my keys are in my pocket
when I get fastened in and ready to start the engine. And of course, there
have been those few times when they're on top of my dresser at home. The darn
things are never where they're supposed to be --- I was taught on top of the
glare shield --- because I always need them for something, like the baggage
door, another trip to the car, or the LED light on the key holder. With all there
is to do to get a plane ready to fly, that stupid little ignition key is
a big time nuisance. Yep, I just decided. No ignition key for me. Thanks Bob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Server problems |
Utah works fine.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Server problems
>
> I'd like reports about access to the website at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
> I can't get at the machine either by browser or
> file transfer protocols but I can get a reponse if
> I "ping" the machine. I can also access other web pages
> on the machine. I'm wondering if I have a regional
> network problem or if everyone is having a problem.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
> > > > Keyed switches are a pain in the arse
> >>Why?
> > Because you need keys to operate them. Keys get
> > lost. Keys are often still in your pocket AFTER
> > you've strapped in and closed the doors.
>
> I think I just became a convert.
That's interesting. Me too, but the other way. I was taught "keys on top of
the dash". This way you KNOW the ignition isnt on as you preflight cause you
can see the keys. I guess this one comes down to personal preference.
John Slade
Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Electric AI & DG |
Does anyone know where to get a used (read inexpensive) 2-1/4" Attitude
Indicator and Directional Gyro?
What brands/models might be available or should I consider?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Alt & Bat Switches |
Is there a good reason to have separate Alternator & Battery switches? Or
could they be placed on the same switch? My feeling is that you may want to
turn off the Alternator if it is misbehaving, but you would still want use
of the battery, sooooo ... I probably answered my own question - two
switches, right? (I'm feeling like such a beginner!)
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Alt & Bat Switches |
I read somewhere recently that a single S700-2-10 (on-on-on) switch
could be used to emulate the traditional split rocker switch. Wire it
such that it behaves like off-batt-alt. Did I get that right Bob?
Card carrying beginner,
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Jim Pack
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:21 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alt & Bat Switches
>
>
>
> Is there a good reason to have separate Alternator & Battery
> switches? Or could they be placed on the same switch? My
> feeling is that you may want to turn off the Alternator if it
> is misbehaving, but you would still want use of the battery,
> sooooo ... I probably answered my own question - two
> switches, right? (I'm feeling like such a beginner!)
>
> - Jim
>
>
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
> Search Engine:
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> ===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alt & Bat Switches |
>
>Is there a good reason to have separate Alternator & Battery switches? Or
>could they be placed on the same switch? My feeling is that you may want to
>turn off the Alternator if it is misbehaving, but you would still want use
>of the battery, sooooo ... I probably answered my own question - two
>switches, right? (I'm feeling like such a beginner!)
>
>- Jim
do you have the drawings from the back of the
AeroElectric Connection? The switch shown is
our S700-2-10 switch that mimics the actions
of the popular split rocker found on many Pipers
and Cessnas. Down=ALL OFF, mid=BAT, up=BAT+ALT
Two separate switches are inadvisable so that you
don't accidently get the battery off and
leave the battery on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw |
>
>Bob, or anyone who knows,
>
>Any idea of the current in the line to engage a starter you sell? I'm
>wondering if the switches in the Infinity can handle that without a relay
>(<6A@12v).
About 3 amps. I presume you're planning to interlock
the starter function so that once the right mag is
on, the starter cannot be energized.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
>
> > > > Keyed switches are a pain in the arse
> >>Why?
>
>
> > Because you need keys to operate them. Keys get
> > lost. Keys are often still in your pocket AFTER
> > you've strapped in and closed the doors.
>
>I think I just became a convert. ALMOST EVERYTIME I fly, my keys are in
>my pocket when I get fastened in and ready to start the engine. And of
>course, there have been those few times when they're on top of my dresser
>at home. The darn things are never where they're supposed to be --- I was
>taught on top of the glare shield --- because I always need them for
>something, like the baggage door, another trip to the car, or the LED
>light on the key holder. With all there is to do to get a plane ready to
>fly, that stupid little ignition key is a big time nuisance. Yep, I just
>decided. No ignition key for me. Thanks Bob.
Most of our brothers never set foot in a bizjet,
Kingair or even a light twin. If any of the
reasons for having a key-switch were very compelling
all of these machines would have to have two key-switches .
They're also much more desirable machines for stealing
if one is so inclined.
As for for "keys on cowl deck, mags safe" idea,
two of the Cessnas I rent will allow one to pull
the key out of the lock with the switch ON. I suspect
they're worn out. If one has a checklist for pre-flighting,
it's just as valid to "MAG SWITCH - Check OFF" as it is
to "KEYS - Lay on cowl deck".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alt & Bat Switches |
>
>I read somewhere recently that a single S700-2-10 (on-on-on) switch
>could be used to emulate the traditional split rocker switch. Wire it
>such that it behaves like off-batt-alt. Did I get that right Bob?
>
>Card carrying beginner,
>
>Larry Bowen
>Larry(at)BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
Yup, that's what all of our drawings show.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs and the B&C LR3B regulator |
>
>
>Bob,
> I saved an old email where you advised a guy using an LED to show low
> voltage on
>the B&C LR3B-14 regulator to put a 180 ohm resistor parallel to the LED,
>then select
>a series resistor to produce 50-30ma at 11.5 volts (220 to 390 ohms) when
>the lamp
>is lit.
> Sorry, but this is over my head. I have the same problem of the LED
> staying on
>all the time. I already have a resistor between the LR3B and the LED to
>adapt the
>LED to 14.4V system power. I figured I just needed a substitute a bigger
>resistor.
>For the benefit of the electronically impaired, can you explain this again
>refering
>to the wiring diagram for the LR3B?
Sure. See http://216.55.140.222/temp/LV_Led.jpg
> Thanks. I wired my Cozy using your book. It
>sure saved me a lot of head-scratching.
>--Kent Ashton
Pleased you found the work useful!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw |
Are you talking about the Infinity stick grip? I wouldn't recommend
putting the starter control on the stick, where it can be easily hit
accidentally... next hangar over from mine, someone accidentally hit the
starter (switch on the grip) while the engine was being worked on - no
one got hurt that time, but it was close. And then it happened again a
week later, no one around the engine that time. Anyway I just don't get
why you would want it there anyway - many other things wold be better
choices for the limited number of functions it can accomodate (IMHO
anyway! :-)
-John R.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Bob, or anyone who knows,
>>
>>Any idea of the current in the line to engage a starter you sell? I'm
>>wondering if the switches in the Infinity can handle that without a relay
>>(<6A@12v).
>>
>
>
> About 3 amps. I presume you're planning to interlock
> the starter function so that once the right mag is
> on, the starter cannot be energized.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jaye and Scott Jackson <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
I followed Bob's advice and the starter in my RV-6 isn't even labelled. I
know that's not considered a safe practice, but I figured anyone that I want
to fly it will be checked out.
The electronic ignition switch is labelled off and on, but there's an
extra, spring-loaded action above the on position for the starter..Don't
bother trying, guys, I still lock the canopy.
Scott in Vancouver
twelfth hour tonight!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Keyed ignition switches
>
> >
> > > > > Keyed switches are a pain in the arse
> > >>Why?
> >
> >
> > > Because you need keys to operate them. Keys get
> > > lost. Keys are often still in your pocket AFTER
> > > you've strapped in and closed the doors.
> >
> >I think I just became a convert. ALMOST EVERYTIME I fly, my keys are in
> >my pocket when I get fastened in and ready to start the engine. And of
> >course, there have been those few times when they're on top of my dresser
> >at home. The darn things are never where they're supposed to be --- I
was
> >taught on top of the glare shield --- because I always need them for
> >something, like the baggage door, another trip to the car, or the LED
> >light on the key holder. With all there is to do to get a plane ready to
> >fly, that stupid little ignition key is a big time nuisance. Yep, I just
> >decided. No ignition key for me. Thanks Bob.
>
> Most of our brothers never set foot in a bizjet,
> Kingair or even a light twin. If any of the
> reasons for having a key-switch were very compelling
> all of these machines would have to have two key-switches .
> They're also much more desirable machines for stealing
> if one is so inclined.
>
> As for for "keys on cowl deck, mags safe" idea,
> two of the Cessnas I rent will allow one to pull
> the key out of the lock with the switch ON. I suspect
> they're worn out. If one has a checklist for pre-flighting,
> it's just as valid to "MAG SWITCH - Check OFF" as it is
> to "KEYS - Lay on cowl deck".
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jaye and Scott Jackson <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw |
This makes me want to ask- If the engine is already running, will
accidentally energizing the starter cause it to mesh with the ring gear?
Scott in VAncouver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter Contactor Draw
>
> >
> >Bob, or anyone who knows,
> >
> >Any idea of the current in the line to engage a starter you sell? I'm
> >wondering if the switches in the Infinity can handle that without a relay
> >(<6A@12v).
>
>
> About 3 amps. I presume you're planning to interlock
> the starter function so that once the right mag is
> on, the starter cannot be energized.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw |
>
>
>This makes me want to ask- If the engine is already running, will
>accidentally energizing the starter cause it to mesh with the ring gear?
> Scott in VAncouver
Yes. Damage is limited to the gear teeth being hammered
during the randomized degree of mis-alignment that
will be present as the teeth come together. Overrun clutches
prevent direct mechanical engagement of the ring gear
with the slower moving starter mechanism. If this is
a transient event, little harm is done. The teeth get
a few little shiny spots on them.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aerocomposites Prop |
In a message dated 9/9/2002 7:33:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kycshann(at)kyol.net writes:
> The AeroComposites 3 blade on an IO-550 in a Lancair Legacy showed a
> 1000fpm increase in climb, and several knots in cruise, over a hartzell
> 2 blade. The tests were done on the same day, same plane, same
> condtions, only thing different was the prop. The AeroComposites was
> hands down the winner in every regard. I can get the more exact details
> if anyone is interested.
>
>
That's amazing! I for one would like to more about the details.
Cliff A&P/IA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw |
><john@allied-computer.com>
>
>Are you talking about the Infinity stick grip? I wouldn't recommend
>putting the starter control on the stick, where it can be easily hit
>accidentally... next hangar over from mine, someone accidentally hit the
>starter (switch on the grip) while the engine was being worked on - no
>one got hurt that time, but it was close. And then it happened again a
>week later, no one around the engine that time. Anyway I just don't get
>why you would want it there anyway - many other things wold be better
>choices for the limited number of functions it can accomodate (IMHO
>anyway! :-)
Were any of the ignition switches on too? It's really easy to
use extra contacts on the ignition switches so that the starter
cannot be energize unless the ignition switches are in the
proper position for cranking. This includes having the starter
be DISABLED when the non-impulse coupled magneto is turned ON.
With this architecture, it takes deliberate positioning of
three switches to get the starter to run . . . a very unlikely
accident.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A good start |
Hey Bob,
Can you recommend a book that can teach me the basics of building electrical
circuits and devices? I have your book and enjoy it, but I have no
experience reading schematics or soldering. I would like to practice on
projects before I start on my dream of an RV-7.
The best books on how-to and how-it-works are written for
the amateur radio hobby. See what your local library has
on this topic. Check out the amateur radio publications
by American Radio Relay League and others.
There are websites that cater to the electronics hobbyist
with both suggested projects and discussion groups
for the exchange of ideas and answering of questions.
I'll suggest you join the Aero-Electric List service
available at www.matronics.com/subscribe There
are several hundred folks on that list actively involved
in advancement of both science and art of building airplanes.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
| People are far more willing to pay |
| for being amused than for anything else. |
| -Thomas Edison- |
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches and diodes |
Hi, Bob. I am putting a system together for my RV-9A. I am using a Geo
alternator with built-in regulator and your crowbar O/V protection. I will
have electronic ignition on the left, and a mag on the right. (Only
because Smartplugs do not like leaded fuel....)
1. Why not use a 2-3 switch for the right mag, since no center off position
is needed or wanted?
You do need an OFF position, this is when the magneto is ON. I chose
to make both switches the same style so that when you are in cruising
flight or parked, the normal position for BOTH switches is the same.
Obviously, one could use a 1-3 in the right mag slot but with dissimilar
positions of the switch for cruising flight. It's a human factors thing.
2. Using a 2-50 switch for the left (electronic) ignition and start switch,
should I put a diode across the start contacts as shown? Or put one across
the actuator coil on the contactor?
diodes always go across the coil. Do you have on of my diagrams
that still shows it across the switch?
See http://216.55.140.222/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
3. It doesn't show a diode on the B-lead Overvoltage contactor. Should I
use one?
Yes. I plan to add one at the next update.
4. I would like to have some sort of key switch for security.....if nothing
else to prevent someone at a fly-in from doing something stupid while
admiring my dandy little custom-built airplane. I am researching to see if
I can find a keyed snowmobile ignition switch that is double pole, to
function as your 2-3 switch. Any thoughts on this?
With the starter interlocked with the ignition switches
it takes deliberate positioning of three switches to
get the starter to run. Chances of accident are nil.
Airplanes on static display at airshows often are required
to disconnect one battery lead as well. Keyswitches
are a pain in the butt and don't provide as much "security"
as some people seem to get from them. If someone wants to
steal your airplane, a pair of dikes will open the p-leads,
propping the engine often gets it started and your airplane
is gone with the keylock switch still in the "protected" mode.
For theft protection, I prefer the really good padlock and
chain on prop hub. It's right out in the open where a
thief would be exposed while working on it and nobody
is going to get away with your airplane until it's off.
Thanks very much, and thanks for the great book and supplies.
My pleasure sir.
Gary Crowder
Armington, Montana
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
| People are far more willing to pay |
| for being amused than for anything else. |
| -Thomas Edison- |
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> As for for "keys on cowl deck, mags safe" idea,
> two of the Cessnas I rent will allow one to pull
> the key out of the lock with the switch ON. I suspect
> they're worn out. If one has a checklist for pre-flighting,
> it's just as valid to "MAG SWITCH - Check OFF" as it is
> to "KEYS - Lay on cowl deck".
*** And they're in annual? There's an AD that covers
just about every small plane ever made that says that at annual, the IA
must check that the key cannot be pulled out in any position but "off".
If the switch fails the pull-out test, it must be replaced.
That's why my fairly substantial keyring has a quick disconnect for
the airplane keys. In flight, nothing hanges from the mag switch but
the luggage key and the quick disconnect.
That being said, I prefer to keep my hands off the @#$# prop anyway.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Coax Cable Stripping
Having a dedicated stripper tool is great, but having a good technique
for stripping with just a knife is good too. An instrumentation tech
where I used to work showed me a method for stripping wire that seems a
little safer and more effective than just rolling the wire between the blade
and your thumb. If you take the wire/cable, and bend it away from the side
you are cutting, it puts tension on that section of insulation. If you just
'touch' the blade to the outside of the radius of the bend in the location
you want to strip, most insulation just opens right up. I can usually strip
anything in two or three nicks of the blade, and cutting strands can be
avoided Certainly not as nice as having a dedicated stripper, but cheaper.
Matt Prather."
I quite agree. ...been working for me since 1960, and the upkeep
is nil. It's just that Matt puts it so well!
My $.02
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Power Sonic Battery |
>
>
>Is anyone on the list successfully using a Power Sonic PS-12180NB
>(www.power-sonic.com) battery in their RV. I purchased one of these a
>couple of years ago and have been using it to smoke test the electrical
>system as I have been completing the systems. Well, it was time for it to
>perform this weekend for the first engine start and it was quite sluggish.
>I charged the battery this last week prior to the start so I thought I would
>be fine. Is it this battery's performance or do I have the wrong battery
>for the 0-360? I don't want to spend $50 replacing this battery if I need
>to spend the $120 to get the Odyssey battery.
Hard to tell at this point. Power-Sonic can generally be
counted on to put out a pretty good battery. After two
years with unknown details of battery maintenance it's
difficult to offer considered advice.
Since you only need to get 1 year of service from a
battery in flight-duty, I'll suggest that your risks
of purchasing another battery from Power-Sonic are
low. In any case, there are LOTS of alternatives less
expensive than an Odyssey battery. Further, if you spend
that much on a battery, I'd recommend that you acquire the
equipment and skills to do periodic capacity checks on
the battery so that you can do preventative maintenance
replacement when capacity falls below useful levels.
I don't recommend purchase of a premium battery unless
you plan to accomplish premium maintenance to go with it.
Otherwise, there are risks of finding yourself
hollering into a dead intercom, "Scotty, I need
more power!".
If it were my airplane, I'd by 'em cheap and change
them often.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Aerocomposites Prop |
Ok, I'll go through my notes here and see if I can't decipher the
results. The test was on the same day, same location, on Rick's Lancair
Legacy with his supercharged IO-550. The comparison was between the
Hartzell 2 blade versus a AeroComposites 3 blade:
CLIMBOUT TEST:
Climbed out at 135 knots from 500AGL from 6000 to 10000, then pushed
nose over and accelerated to 160 knots, reduced power and climbed out:
ALT RATE SETTINGS
SPEED
Hartzell 6-10 2000fpm 35" map/2700rpm
135knots
AeroC 6-10 2500fpm 35" map/2700rpm
160knots
Hartzell 10-15 2000fpm 35" map/2700rpm
135knots
AeroC 10-15 3000fpm 35" map/2700rpm
160knots
CRUISE TEST:
High Power Cruise, Set power to 31" map, 2700rpm
ALT SETTINGS SPEED
TRUE
Hartzell 15 31" map/2700rpm 220KIAS
282KTAS
AeroC 15 31" map/2700rpm 230KIAS
300KTAS
AeroC 6 40" map/2900rpm
275KTAS
Normal Cruise
AeroC 12 27.5" map/2400rpm/50LOP/14.9gph
300mph
IMPROVEMENTS:
AeroC had 500-1000fpm better climb, and was 18-25KTAS faster. Other
notes from Rick included that the AeroC was much smoother running,
allowed a much shorter take off roll, and had considerably faster
acceleration
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FlyV35B(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aerocomposites Prop
In a message dated 9/9/2002 7:33:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kycshann(at)kyol.net writes:
> The AeroComposites 3 blade on an IO-550 in a Lancair Legacy showed a
> 1000fpm increase in climb, and several knots in cruise, over a
hartzell
> 2 blade. The tests were done on the same day, same plane, same
> condtions, only thing different was the prop. The AeroComposites was
> hands down the winner in every regard. I can get the more exact
details
> if anyone is interested.
>
>
That's amazing! I for one would like to more about the details.
Cliff A&P/IA
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bus & Switch configuration
>>>Essential Bus Items:
> If you have a dual-battery/dual-alternator system like Figure Z-14
> then you don't need an essential bus.
Bob,
Just to make sure I understand (I'm still a little confused):
The Starter Switch needs to be an [on-off-(on)] switch (S700-2-5) where one
side of the switch momentarily closes the Cross-Feed Contactor (for dual
battery cranking) and the other side momentarily engages the Starter
Solenoid - right? (potentially wired so that it can not engage unless both
the mag & EI is engaged - is there ever a time you would want to start with
only one or the other?).
In case of an alternator/regulator failure (this will be recognized because
the Alt Meter goes high or low??) - the faulty Alternator is taken off-line
(but leave the battery stays on) by use of the 3 position [off-bat-alt/bat]
switch (S700-2-10). One side of the switch disconnects the alternator and
the other side is wired to leave the battery contactor closed and battery
on-line.
Also with an Alternator failure, you then close a Cross-Feed switch which
closes the Cross-Feed Contactor providing power from both batteries to both
the main & aux bus. (Z-14 shows this switch as position 3 on the same
switch as the starter switch? Am I interpreting that correctly? Why would
you want the momentary starter and the cross-feed "emergency" switch to be
the same switch? Doesn't that make a starter button challenging?
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Ignition key switches |
"I think I just became a convert. ALMOST EVERYTIME I fly, my keys are in my
pocket when I get fastened in and ready to start the engine. And of course,
there have been those few times when they're on top of my dresser at home.
The darn things are never where they're supposed to be --- I was taught on
top of the glare shield --- because I always need them for something, like
the baggage door, another trip to the car, or the LED light on the key
holder. With all there is to do to get a plane ready to fly, that stupid
little ignition key is a big time nuisance. Yep, I just decided. No
ignition key for me. Thanks Bob."
As they enter the auditorium, he says to her, "We should have brought the
piano...."
She says, "Why, for Heaven's sake?"
".....because I left the tickets on it."
ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > As for for "keys on cowl deck, mags safe" idea,
> > two of the Cessnas I rent will allow one to pull
> > the key out of the lock with the switch ON. I suspect
> > they're worn out. If one has a checklist for pre-flighting,
> > it's just as valid to "MAG SWITCH - Check OFF" as it is
> > to "KEYS - Lay on cowl deck".
>
>*** And they're in annual? There's an AD that covers
>just about every small plane ever made that says that at annual, the IA
>must check that the key cannot be pulled out in any position but "off".
>If the switch fails the pull-out test, it must be replaced.
>
> That's why my fairly substantial keyring has a quick disconnect for
>the airplane keys. In flight, nothing hanges from the mag switch but
>the luggage key and the quick disconnect.
>
> That being said, I prefer to keep my hands off the @#$# prop anyway.
Hmmm . . . I'll have to ask. Never considered that it might
be a hard-check item on the annual.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Infinity Grip switches (starter? strobe? landing light?) |
I doubt that either ignition switch was on - but that's a good point,
I'll pass it along to him.
But even if he did add an interlock, since either the EI or impulse mag
can be used for starting, either switch could enable the situation - and
then there's the potential to hit the starter while in flight (there is
no non-impulse-mag switch that could be used to disable the starter)
In any event, I still don't understand why you'd want a switch that is
so rarely used, and then almost always while non-moving on the ground,
positioned in a location where a movement of just a few millimeters (or
even turbulence) could cause you to accidentally hit it. Especially when
there's other things that are needed during flight, and especially
useful on the stick rather than the panel - here's my list:
Coolie-Hat trim (thumb - pretty standard))
A/P disconnect (left of trim switches)
Frequency flip-flop / clearance recorder (right of trim switches)
PTT (trigger finger)
Strobe (mid-level position)
Landing light (pinky switch)
I'm still debating the exact positioning, especially the last two. Is
anyone else using the Infinity grip, and if so what switches are you
putting on it?
-John R.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>><john@allied-computer.com>
>>
>>Are you talking about the Infinity stick grip? I wouldn't recommend
>>putting the starter control on the stick, where it can be easily hit
>>accidentally... next hangar over from mine, someone accidentally hit the
>>starter (switch on the grip) while the engine was being worked on - no
>>one got hurt that time, but it was close. And then it happened again a
>>week later, no one around the engine that time. Anyway I just don't get
>>why you would want it there anyway - many other things wold be better
>>choices for the limited number of functions it can accomodate (IMHO
>>anyway! :-)
>>
>
> Were any of the ignition switches on too? It's really easy to
> use extra contacts on the ignition switches so that the starter
> cannot be energize unless the ignition switches are in the
> proper position for cranking. This includes having the starter
> be DISABLED when the non-impulse coupled magneto is turned ON.
>
> With this architecture, it takes deliberate positioning of
> three switches to get the starter to run . . . a very unlikely
> accident.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw |
> With this architecture, it takes deliberate positioning of
> three switches to get the starter to run . . . a very unlikely
> accident.
Most accidents are "very unlikely" and require "three things" to go wrong.
Personally, I prefer the surity of knowing that, if the keys are in my
pocket, then the engine cannot turn accidentally (but I'll add that "remove
keys in on position" item to my annual check-list. Thanks.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
>
> "I think I just became a convert. ALMOST EVERYTIME I fly, my keys are in
my
> pocket when I get fastened in and ready to start the engine. And of
course,
> there have been those few times when they're on top of my dresser at home.
> The darn things are never where they're supposed to be --- I was taught on
> top of the glare shield --- because I always need them for something, like
> the baggage door, another trip to the car, or the LED light on the key
> holder. With all there is to do to get a plane ready to fly, that stupid
> little ignition key is a big time nuisance. Yep, I just decided. No
> ignition key for me. Thanks Bob."
Another good reason for not having a key, as friend found out: he was
hauling jumpers for a bit of fun - one jump master got rid of the load, then
came forward and removed the key before exiting the aeroplane.... he
couldn't get at the P-leads, so had to do a deadstick landing. Not really a
problem as he was over the field @10K - but he never went flying again
without a spare set.
M
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Brownout" during cranking... |
This thread has interested me as I have a Jeff Rose EI and a SkyTec
starter and discussed the combo with Jeff Rose. When I ordered my Jeff
Rose EI, Jeff made a point of asking me what starter I planned to use
and what sort of starter switch set up I planned. Here is what I
understood Jeff to recommend.
Jeff is not an advocate of the SkyTec starter due to its large current
draw and the speed at which it spins the engine. Specifically, he
suggested that a low battery situation might keep the EI from firing
until late in the start sequence or after the starter switch is
released, resulting in a no start and/or inviting a kick back. If using
a mag only for start, Jeff suggested the SkyTec has the potential to
spin the engine fast enough that the impulse feature is overcome, also
inviting a kick back. Without making any specific recommendations, Jeff
implied that there might be better starters than a SkyTec when
considering an EI system. When I told Jeff I already had my SkyTec
installed, he dropped the subject and suggested a mag/EI and starter
switch setup and a start sequence to help prevent problems.
Jeff is not an advocate of the standard keyed starter switch since it
limits the start options. He prefers individual mag/EI switches and a
push button starter switch - particularly with a SkyTec starter or
equivalent. His recommend start sequence was BOTH mag and EI switches
off, engage the starter, and then turn on the EI a few seconds later
after the starter has spun the engine up to speed.
I am not yet flying, so I have no practical experience with the system.
However, I followed Jeff's recommendation and have installed individual
mag and EI switches and a push button start switch. My mag is on the
left side and has an impulse starter. I plan to use his recommended
start sequence.
For the record, I found Jeff to be extremely candid and very helpful. He
took the time to return my initial inquiry call, and spent considerable
time discussing and explaining his system and its implications to the
amateur builder. The system was delivered quickly, and installation was
a snap.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB (Res.)
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Power Sonic Battery |
Dan,
I have one of these in my RV-6, O-360. I now have 75 hours in about four
months of flying. I purchased it about 1 1/2 years ago. No problems so
far. I did have to charge it before the first flight.
Ken Harrill
RV-6
message posted by: "Frank, Dan"
Is anyone on the list successfully using a Power Sonic PS-12180NB
(www.power-sonic.com) battery in their RV. I purchased one of these a
couple of years ago and have been using it to smoke test the electrical
system as I have been completing the systems. Well, it was time for it to
perform this weekend for the first engine start and it was quite sluggish.
I charged the battery this last week prior to the start so I thought I would
be fine. Is it this battery's performance or do I have the wrong battery
for the 0-360? I don't want to spend $50 replacing this battery if I need
to spend the $120 to get the Odyssey battery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
>
>Another good reason for not having a key, as friend found out: he was
>hauling jumpers for a bit of fun - one jump master got rid of the load, then
>came forward and removed the key before exiting the aeroplane.... he
>couldn't get at the P-leads, so had to do a deadstick landing. Not really a
>problem as he was over the field @10K - but he never went flying again
>without a spare set.
Well now I have to know more. Why did the jump master take the keys and
jump out of the plane leaving your friend to possibly crash and die? Was
he trying to kill your friend? What was the outcome? Did your friend beat
the jump master senseless when he got back on the ground? WOW what a story
this must be.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw / Infinity Grip |
Regarding on whether or not to put the start switch on the stick grip:
I've actually given it a lot of thought and I think it is a good idea,
especially on high HP, fuel injected taildraggers.
It is difficult to start a hot engine on a taildragger without 3 hands if
the switch is anywhere else. I do plan to interlock the switch with either
the non-impulse mag switch or through a separate arm switch on the panel.
Someone commented that there are better functions to put on the limited
number of positions. Each his own, but I can't fathom why some put things
like strobe lights on the stick. I've got over 15000 hours and that is one
switch that is rarely used in flight. Same with landing lights. Switches
that are frequently used in flight are better candidates, such as frequency
flip flops, autopilot disconnect, transponder ident, etc. Lights are better
served by switches that indicate their status.
Aloha,
Russ
HRII
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw / Infinity Grip |
Well, I originally agreed with you about the strobe and landing lights -
and I generally still do, since I have never needed to have access to
them. But the argument put to me for having them on the stick, was 1)
for the strobe, if you unexpectedly get into clouds at night, it may
disorient you enough that it becomes difficult to get to the switch on
the panel. I wouldn't know, as I've never flown in clouds at night, but
that's the story told to me. As for 2), landing lights, it was suggested
that it would be nice to have, to easily turn it on and off for
recognition value when you have traffic nearby but haven't spotted it yet.
Personally, I think the strobe idea has merit, but not so much the
landing light (besides, the landing light draws considerably more
current than the strobes, and I really wasn't comfortable putting it on
there) - but I'm curious to know how many would agree/disagree with the
advice I've been given.
And how would you wire an EI/impusle-mag arrangement to lockout the
starter as Bob suggested? Some have suggested locking it out whenever
the non-impulse mag is activated (but what if you don't have one?),
others suggested locking it out when both are selected (I guess that
would be if you would only start the engine on either EI or mag but
never both - but most people I've asked start with both on).
I had forgotten about the transponder ident (I knew there was something
else!), so I think I'll go with that one and drop the landing light...
can you think of anything else that would be more useful than the
strobe? I don't have a taildragger, so I don't have the situation you
mention (although I can certainly see how it *is* a good idea in that
case!); still, an "arm" switch somewhere else for the starter I think is
a good idea for that situation. But for my situation, I plan to put the
start switch under a switchguard... it has the advantage of simplicity.
-John R.
Russ Werner wrote:
>
> Regarding on whether or not to put the start switch on the stick grip:
>
> I've actually given it a lot of thought and I think it is a good idea,
> especially on high HP, fuel injected taildraggers.
>
> It is difficult to start a hot engine on a taildragger without 3 hands if
> the switch is anywhere else. I do plan to interlock the switch with either
> the non-impulse mag switch or through a separate arm switch on the panel.
>
> Someone commented that there are better functions to put on the limited
> number of positions. Each his own, but I can't fathom why some put things
> like strobe lights on the stick. I've got over 15000 hours and that is one
> switch that is rarely used in flight. Same with landing lights. Switches
> that are frequently used in flight are better candidates, such as frequency
> flip flops, autopilot disconnect, transponder ident, etc. Lights are better
> served by switches that indicate their status.
>
> Aloha,
>
> Russ
> HRII
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
Scot Stambaugh wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Well now I have to know more. Why did the jump master take the keys and
> jump out of the plane leaving your friend to possibly crash and die? Was
> he trying to kill your friend? What was the outcome? Did your friend beat
> the jump master senseless when he got back on the ground? WOW what a story
> this must be.
>
*** I understand this is a skydiving tradition. New jump plane pilot, they
pull the keys and jump out. I guess it's an "initiation".
If I ever piloted a jump plane, I would *definitely* have a spare set of keys
- just so I could get out and laugh at the bastards :).
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor Draw / Infinity Grip |
A key switch on the opposite side of the panel from the throttle
is not an ideal layout, though typical of many factory airplanes.
A guarded starter switch mounted on the stick grip seems okay. My
hangar buddy has bumped his unguarded grip mounted starter switch
several times that I can recall - fortuneately without noteable
damage to anything.
Another option is to place the mag and starter switches above the
throttle quadrant. Many old airplanes are arranged this way. I even
think that's a good place for the boost pump and primer. Then you can
hold the yoke/stick back with one hand and play the engine controls with
the other. If you have a lever throttle/mixture, loop your pinky around
the levers, and you can control at least a couple of switches with your
other fingers.
Since you might be the one building the high HP fuel injected tail
draggers, you might consider making the fuel installation more hot-start
friendly than many factory airplanes. It sounds like the key thing is
to provide a flush path for the fuel rail to allow the removal of the
heated/vaporized/bubbled fuel. That way you can run the boost pump for
a minute prior to trying the start in order to load the system with cool
fuel from the tank. Then maybe it won't take such a dance to get it
started.
Sorry for the off topic.
Matt Prather
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Mills <courierboy(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
>Another good reason for not having a key, as friend found out: he was
>hauling jumpers for a bit of fun - one jump master got rid of the load, then
>came forward and removed the key before exiting the aeroplane.... he
>couldn't get at the P-leads, so had to do a deadstick landing. Not really a
>problem as he was over the field @10K - but he never went flying again
>without a spare set.
>
>M
Wow is right! I've never heard of such a thing.
Flying is waaay to serious for this behavior. That jump master should
have had some swift consequences - broken thumbs ;-) or FAA action
imposed, whether it's tradition or not.
This follows an unsettling trend I'm noticing. The trend is to
compensate (spare keys) for the possible fatal behaviors of others,
instead of imposing the swift penalties they deserve.
You're right Bob - lay down the law early and provide swift and
memorable consequences for transgressions.
Thank you -
Bill
(toggle switches for mags)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Garfield Willis <garwillis(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
wrote:
>Wow is right! I've never heard of such a thing.
>Flying is waaay to serious for this behavior. That jump master should
>have had some swift consequences - broken thumbs ;-) or FAA action
>imposed, whether it's tradition or not.
>
>This follows an unsettling trend I'm noticing. The trend is to
>compensate (spare keys) for the possible fatal behaviors of others,
>instead of imposing the swift penalties they deserve.
>
>You're right Bob - lay down the law early and provide swift and
>memorable consequences for transgressions.
That's funny, I got a good belly laugh outta that. Good one; I've got to
remember that turn of phrase: "memorable consequences for
transgressors". Hee hee.
Gar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Infinity Grip Switches |
We've just been through a thread on the Lancair Mail List about infinity grip functions,
which I found very helpful. Here's what I decided to order for my ES:
1. Coolie -- Elevator and rudder trim.
2. Trigger -- Push-to-talk.
3. Thumb side of coolie -- Flaps, with (ON)-Off-ON switch. The momentary (ON)
is in the downward direction.
4. Thumb side, halfway down -- Stormscope clear and checklist toggle. This is
an (ON)-Off switch.
5. Pinkie -- Autopilot (control wheel steering and disconnect) in one direction,
squawk-ident in the other direction. This is an (ON)-OFF-(ON) switch mounted
sideways, with the autopilot function in the inboard direction.
6. Knuckle side of coolie -- Aileron trim with horizontally mounted (ON)-Off-(ON)
switch.
I've tried to mitigate risks of bumping switches in two ways. First, I'll have
a switch on the panel that disables the copilot switches. Second, I've configured
the switches so that that most likely bumping scenarios won't cause great
harm. For example, the pilot could bump the flap switch in cruise while reading
a chart. Bumping it up wouldn't do anything, since the flaps are already
up. Bumping it down only momentarily lowers the flaps. The pinkie switch might
also be bumped, but bumping it in just hits ident. Bumping it out would shut
off the autopilot, but this would only occur when the hand is already on the
stick.
My push-to-start switch will go somewhere on or under the panel. Haven't decided
where yet.
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ignition System input voltage? |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Bob,
Boyd mentioned the LSE system specifically in this thread and I thought
someone else did also....at any rate I know the LSE system in particular
has been the subject of discussions with starting problems, kickback, etc
because I have watched the threads with interest seeing as how I have a
vested interest in any issues with this system...
Either way, my point still applies....if someone has a Jeff Rose system,
and it's giving you problems, have you tried calling Jeff Rose first?
Seems to be to be the most courteous path to take....give the
designer/seller of the system a shot at helping you out. If he is not
responsive or helpful then it makes sense to take the problems to a
public forum. And if taken to a public forum it would be nice if people
would post a follow-up when the problem/fix has been found, that way the
rest of us aren't left wondering if there's a "problem" with the product,
or if it was a problem with the wiring, installation or operation of the
product....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing....
_______
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ignition System input voltage?
>
>Guys, I wrote Klaus Savier to inquire about the starting problems some
>have reported using his Lightspeed ignition system yesterday and here is
>his prompt response. I'd suggest humbly that if you have the Lightspeed
>system and it's giving you any trouble to take it up with Klaus first
>before too much speculation and "fixes" get underway....if he is for
some
>reason unable or unwilling to help resolve it, then the internet forums
>can be used to further troubleshoot....
>
>I'm copying this to the RV-List since it is of interest to many RV'er's
>even though the discussion that prompted my questions to Klaus were on
>the Aeroelectric-List.
Don't know why you did this . . . don't think anyone mentioned
Lightspeed in any of the messages complaining of problems.
The featured system was the ElectroAir system from Jeff Rose.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Keyed Start Switch |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
I called my local locksmith and got a simple momentary contact keyed
ignition switch along with a lock that uses the same key (for the forward
baggage door on my RV-8A). I think it was made by "Chicago Lock and Key"
or something like that but can't recall for sure. The ignition switch
has only two positions: OFF and spring-loaded momentary ON. It was
around $17 total for the lock, ignition switch, and a couple spare keys.
I'm using toggle switches for each of my Lightspeed ignition systems and
the keyed ignition switch for the starter. My reasons were the same as
yours...if the ignition key is in my pocket, nobody's going to push a
button and crank the engine either on purpose or accidentally. I know
some people think this is excessive and needless...this debate has
already been flogged to death (see the archives)....make up your mind
what you feel most comfortable with and go with it....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing....
_______
From: "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Keyed Start Switch
Your local auto parts store probably has this part in stock.
> Does anyone know of a keyed start switch. Just a SPSD momentary
contact
> switch with a key (not the standard L/R/B/S keyed ignition switch).
> Don't want the kids to be able to play pilot and accidentally crank the
> prop. If I've got the key, it won't happen even if they are sitting in
> the seat.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "mag" drop with electronic ignition |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Bob,
Boyd isn't the first person to report better performance (i.e. higher
horsepower) from the use of EI. Others on the RV-List have made similar
claims. Klaus Savier at LSE told me at OSH that his system will increase
power by 3-5 hp if memory serves me correctly, and Bart Lalonde at
Aerosport Power says without a doubt that it shows up on the dyno at
about 4 hp increase for an O-360. My humble understanding is that the
combination of spark advance and hotter spark allows more complete
burning of the mixture in the combustion chamber, instead of having part
of mixture still uselessly burning as it exits the exhaust valve (this is
why replacing mags with EI results in lower EGT's). Anyway the more
complete combustion results in either greater efficiency at a given power
setting, or greater power at a given fuel flow. Neither will radically
change your performance or range, but the change is *measurable* both in
theory and in reports from actual operation....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing with dual LSE Plasma ignitions....
-
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: "mag" drop with electronic ignition
>
>The EI IS doing all the work! In my airplane (with a '98 LSE EI), with
the EI
>on, performance data from Vx, Vy and top speed are completely unaffected
as to
>the Bendix mag being on or off. RPM drop during run-up is -200
>rpm. After mag
>"rebuild" at 400 hrs, there's no change in performance data.
Performance with
>the single mag, alone, is Horrible--it's like I have a 160 hp -360 or
>something.
Did anyone claim that the performance of your airplane would
change in any observable way?
If someone told you that you can expect any increase in
horsepower or markedly lower operating costs for fuel
was either in error or blowing smoke . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Keyed ignition switches |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >*** And they're in annual? There's an AD that covers
> >just about every small plane ever made that says that at annual, the IA
> >must check that the key cannot be pulled out in any position but "off".
> >If the switch fails the pull-out test, it must be replaced.
> >
> > That's why my fairly substantial keyring has a quick disconnect for
> >the airplane keys. In flight, nothing hanges from the mag switch but
> >the luggage key and the quick disconnect.
> >
> > That being said, I prefer to keep my hands off the @#$# prop anyway.
>
>
> Hmmm . . . I'll have to ask. Never considered that it might
> be a hard-check item on the annual.
>
*** I just checked at the FAA online AD database. Couldn't find the "pull
out the key" AD. All I found was an AD from 1976 that says that if you turn the
mag
switch "off" and the engine keeps running, then you have the replace the
switch.
Still, I know this has been a standard checklist item on every annual
I've gone through.
- Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Grip Switches |
Dan: I am also a Lancair SUPER ES owner. About 50% complete. I am
considering a IO-520 Engine. Considering the Bluemountain EFIS ONE panel.
Would like to reference you in my address book as a contact if I get stuck.
If you have any info on anyone using the above, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Ed Silvanic
N823ms(at)AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
> Another good reason for not having a key, as friend found out: he was
> hauling jumpers for a bit of fun - one jump master got rid of the load, then
> came forward and removed the key before exiting the aeroplane.... he
> couldn't get at the P-leads, so had to do a deadstick landing. Not really a
> problem as he was over the field @10K - but he never went flying again
> without a spare set.
Happens all the time. I have a friend who is a jump pilot,
he says they usually grab the key on the way out. About
May the one mag was always hot (broken ground probably).
He didn't tell the maintence guy, so now the jumpers think
the key isn't so fun to pull anymore.
They had an annual in August, the mechanic fixed the hot
mag, and lost the key. He asked me to drive him down to
pick up the plane, then said nevermind, there weren't
any spare keys. Probaly not gonna put a key in my plane
either.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bus & Switch configuration
>
>
>
>
> >>>Essential Bus Items:
>
> > If you have a dual-battery/dual-alternator system like Figure Z-14
> > then you don't need an essential bus.
>
>Bob,
>
>Just to make sure I understand (I'm still a little confused):
>The Starter Switch needs to be an [on-off-(on)] switch (S700-2-5) where one
>side of the switch momentarily closes the Cross-Feed Contactor (for dual
>battery cranking) and the other side momentarily engages the Starter
>Solenoid - right? (potentially wired so that it can not engage unless both
>the mag & EI is engaged - is there ever a time you would want to start with
>only one or the other?).
If you have both an impulse coupled mag -AND- EI qualified to
use while cranking, then there's no need to interlock the starter
controls with ignition controls because there are no positions
of the ignition switches where cranking is ill-advised or prohibited.
>In case of an alternator/regulator failure (this will be recognized because
>the Alt Meter goes high or low??)
Your first indication of alternator failure is and always should
be a flashing LOW BUS VOLTS warning light. this will occur in seconds
after failure of an alternator.
>- the faulty Alternator is taken off-line
>(but leave the battery stays on) by use of the 3 position [off-bat-alt/bat]
>switch (S700-2-10). One side of the switch disconnects the alternator and
>the other side is wired to leave the battery contactor closed and battery
>on-line.
Correct.
>Also with an Alternator failure, you then close a Cross-Feed switch which
>closes the Cross-Feed Contactor providing power from both batteries to both
>the main & aux bus. (Z-14 shows this switch as position 3 on the same
>switch as the starter switch? Am I interpreting that correctly?
Yes. If the big alternator craps, you would do load reduction
to keep total loads equal to or less than 20A. If the little
alternator craps, you can still probably carry 100% of normal
loads with the big one. In either case, batteries are not expected
to supply any en-route loads and are held in reserve for approach
phase and the EXTREMELY remote probability ('cause they're B&C products)
of dual alternator failure.
> Why would
>you want the momentary starter and the cross-feed "emergency" switch to be
>the same switch? Doesn't that make a starter button challenging?
No, the single switch IS the starter "button" . . . actually, we could
use a 2-50 wired so that down is OFF, mid position is Cross-Feed ON, up
is Cross-feed + Starter (momentary). This gets you both batteries for
cranking.
The 2-50 is a bit more expensive than a 2-5 but it lets you keep the
all-switches-off-when-down convention.
>Thanks,
>Jim
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
>
> > Why would
> >you want the momentary starter and the cross-feed "emergency" switch to
be
> >the same switch? Doesn't that make a starter button challenging?
>
> No, the single switch IS the starter "button" . . . actually, we could
> use a 2-50 wired so that down is OFF, mid position is Cross-Feed ON,
up
> is Cross-feed + Starter (momentary). This gets you both batteries for
> cranking.
> The 2-50 is a bit more expensive than a 2-5 but it lets you keep the
> all-switches-off-when-down convention.
Bob,
So, optionally, you could have a separate "Cross-Feed On" switch [off - on ]
that you use in the case of an alternator failure (say, placed near your
voltmeter & LOW BUS VOLTS Warning Light) - and the Cross-Feed On wiring in
the DPDT starter button [ off - (on) ] for starting?
This way you don't accidentally hit the starter button when you meant to
close the Cross-Feed Contactor in the electrical "incident" (as opposed to
what would become an emergency in a certified plane).
Do I have that right?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Brooks" <kdbrv8r(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Start Switch on Stick |
From: John Rourke:
snip<...I wouldn't recommend putting the starter control on the stick,
where it can be easily hit accidentally... next hangar over from mine,
someone accidentally hit the starter (switch on the grip) while the
engine was being worked on...>snip
Simply put a lever-lock "Stick Starter Enable" switch on the panel. The
idea is to have left hand on the throttle and right hand on the stick
holding aft stick pressure (this is a tail dragger RV-8, mind you). My
front seat Infinity Grip will have a start button, but the rear will
not. For redundancy, I'll have a hidden engine start button (no key)
for use at times when I don't need/want to use the stick start.
Ken Brooks
Roscoe, IL
N1903P reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Navigation Select Switch |
>Just published the corrected version using DPDT relays
>at http://216.55.140.222/9008
>Bob . . .
...I've added one more question to my earlier questions about the navigation select
switch...
I have the same switching problem some others have raised --- two radios and one
nav indicator. The relay board looks like an elegant solution. As a possible
alternative, I found a company that sells custom-made 18 pole (or 20 pole,
or whatever you want) rotary switches. See
http://www.electro-nc.com/. The manufacturer said a two-position switch would cost around $130, depending on the distributor's mark-up (although the first two distributor quotes were over $200!) Beyond the price, I am interested in the merits of using this type of switch versus the relay board approach. Secondly, if I decide to go the relay board route, is the lay-out on the aeroelectric site ready to go? Third, I assume the relay board should be installed in some type of box. Does anyone know a source for the box?
Thanks,
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Jumpmaster pulls keys |
Cheers,
" Why did the jump master take the keys and jump out of the plane leaving
your friend to possibly crash and die? Was he trying to kill your friend?
What was the outcome? Did your friend beat the jump master senseless when
he got back on the ground? "
"*** I understand this is a skydiving tradition. New jump plane pilot, they
pull the keys and jump out. I guess it's an "initiation".
I think this prompts the question, "Which do you think is
easier - landing an aircraft with a jumpmaster's chute caught in the
tailwheel, - or landing a parachute with an aircraft attached to it?"
Ferg
PS - see Aesop's tale of the Fox and the Camel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
>
> >
> > > Why would
> > >you want the momentary starter and the cross-feed "emergency" switch to
>be
> > >the same switch? Doesn't that make a starter button challenging?
> >
> > No, the single switch IS the starter "button" . . . actually, we could
> > use a 2-50 wired so that down is OFF, mid position is Cross-Feed ON,
>up
> > is Cross-feed + Starter (momentary). This gets you both batteries for
> > cranking.
> > The 2-50 is a bit more expensive than a 2-5 but it lets you keep the
> > all-switches-off-when-down convention.
>
>Bob,
>
>So, optionally, you could have a separate "Cross-Feed On" switch [off - on ]
>that you use in the case of an alternator failure (say, placed near your
>voltmeter & LOW BUS VOLTS Warning Light) - and the Cross-Feed On wiring in
>the DPDT starter button [ off - (on) ] for starting?
>
>This way you don't accidentally hit the starter button when you meant to
>close the Cross-Feed Contactor in the electrical "incident" (as opposed to
>what would become an emergency in a certified plane).
You could do that. If it were my airplane, all the switches would
be grouped in a nice row, perhaps a single row, ordered from each
end in their order/likelihood of use. Combining functions onto
a single control would also be done to reduce complexity of the
panel. The goal is to engineer out the likelihood of "accident".
Several times a week, someone voices concerns about "accidently"
hitting or operating a switch and, I guess, is also worried
about hazardous if not catastrophic consequences of the action.
In over 1500 hours in dozens of different airplanes, I've never
inadvertently placed a switch in another position that
was more than a personal embarrassment for not paying attention
and I've never "bumped" a switch or control . . .
For my money, simpler is better. Yes, we can now do
dual-battery/dual-alternator
systems inexpensively and much lighter with respect to their ancient
(read certified) ancestors. Obviously, every one of us is free to
configure their airplane in any manner they wish (Did a wirebook
for an aspiring BD-10 builder a few years back - he LIKED the
complicated/military look).
Let's see if we can deduce which of your concerns are truly
justified in terms of real life experiences and then see if
attention to ergonomics and human factors can suppress
them without driving up parts count, taking up more room on
the panel or turning your "emergency procedures" section of
the POH into a novel.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Navigation Select Switch |
>
> >Just published the corrected version using DPDT relays
> >at http://216.55.140.222/9008
> >Bob . . .
>
>...I've added one more question to my earlier questions about the
>navigation select switch...
>
>I have the same switching problem some others have raised --- two radios
>and one nav indicator. The relay board looks like an elegant solution. As
>a possible alternative, I found a company that sells custom-made 18 pole
>(or 20 pole,
>or whatever you want) rotary switches. See
>http://www.electro-nc.com/. The manufacturer said a two-position switch
>would cost around $130, depending on the distributor's mark-up (although
>the first two distributor quotes were over $200!) Beyond the price, I am
>interested in the merits of using this type of switch versus the relay
>board approach. Secondly, if I decide to go the relay board route, is the
>lay-out on the aeroelectric site ready to go? Third, I assume the relay
>board should be installed in some type of box. Does anyone know a source
>for the box?
I've started over with smaller relays and a much more compact design.
I'll see if I can finish it up this weekend. It takes a board, 9 relays,
two connectors and one diode. It can be assembled in about 30 minutes tops.
I wouldn't bother to put it in a box. There are no fragile components
exposed. Total cost to build should be about $60.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches |
>
> >Wow is right! I've never heard of such a thing.
> >Flying is waaay to serious for this behavior. That jump master should
> >have had some swift consequences - broken thumbs ;-) or FAA action
> >imposed, whether it's tradition or not.
At the risk of extending a marvelously off topic conversation...
My grandfather was a flight instructor for the Signal Corps before and
during WWI. No intercoms, of course. They had a "tradition" that when a
student was ready to solo the instructor, in the back seat, would
disconnect and remove his joystick, tap the student on the shoulder with it
to get his attention, then throw it over the side.
One student had heard about the tradition. When Gramps threw the joystick
over the student nodded, reached down and thew HIS joystick over the
side. He'd brought along a spare.
Another time Gramps was showing a very new student slow
rolls. Unfortunately Gramps had neglected to fasten his seat belt and fell
out. He was wearing a parachute, but it took the student several tries to
make his first landing.
(now returning you to the topic at hand....)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | starter switch, thermal strippers |
<putting the starter control on the stick, where it can be easily hit
>accidentally... next hangar over from mine, someone accidentally hit the
>starter (switch on the grip) while the engine was being worked on - no
>one got hurt that time, but it was close. And then it happened again a
>week later, no one around the engine that time. Anyway I just don't get
>why you would want it there anyway - many other things wold be better
>choices for the limited number of functions it can accomodate>>
Very interesting. There is sort of a "rule of 20" when it comes to
accidents (and a lot of other things). For cars there are about 20
near-misses for every accident. There are 20 accidents for every injury
accident. There are 20 injury accident for every fatality. Therefore, you
just have to look for near-misses to prevent fatalities and they are much
easier to find. Here are two "near misses" in the same airplane two weeks
in a row. That would be enough to convince me to never, ever put a starter
switch on the stick and to take off all the ones that are there now. The
"rule of 20" would say that sooner or later someone is going to get whacked
by a prop because of the switch location. That would be the most
discouraging way to have an airplane accident - both for the whackee and the
one that bumped the switch. Rather than adding the complexity of multiple
switches in series to reduce the probability I would think that putting the
switch on the panel with a guard over it would be simpler and more
effective. Why would you want to have your hand on the controls when you
are cranking the engine anyway?
Unrelated question: On another list I have read comments about Thermal
Strippers for wiring (no, it's not a group from the local club). Never
heard of those - are they the thing to use?
Gary Casey
ES - just about to start wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
>In case of an alternator/regulator failure (this will be recognized because
>the Alt Meter goes high or low??)
Your first indication of alternator failure is and always should
be a flashing LOW BUS VOLTS warning light. this will occur in seconds
after failure of an alternator.
Bob,
I have looked over the catalog's I have and can't find a flashing warning
light. Do you have any recommended suppliers? Would you recommend an
audible alert also?
Also, I assume (from the Z-14 drawing) that this warning light is driven
from the regulator?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
Jim,
There is a circuit diagram for an overvoltage module on Bob's site.
This circuit monitors that bus voltage, and if it is found below
the desired value, it generates a flashing light signal to drive a
plain LED. The circuit is pretty simple with an op-amp, a 555 timer,
a zener, and not much else.
Check out:
http://216.55.140.222/articles.html
and then:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/9021-610.pdf
Bob, a note on the articles page says that there was a voltage/amperage
measurement circuit (LVM-14?). Is this available? After looking through
the archive, I found reference to the AEC9005. Is that now available?
Matt Prather.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:39 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bus & Switch configuration
>
> >In case of an alternator/regulator failure (this will be
> recognized because
> >the Alt Meter goes high or low??)
>
> Your first indication of alternator failure is and always should
> be a flashing LOW BUS VOLTS warning light. this will occur in
> seconds after failure of an alternator.
>
> Bob,
>
> I have looked over the catalog's I have and can't find a flashing
> warninglight. Do you have any recommended suppliers? Would you
> recommend an
> audible alert also?
>
> Also, I assume (from the Z-14 drawing) that this warning light is
> drivenfrom the regulator?
>
> - Jim
>
>
> _-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: thermal strippers |
>Unrelated question: On another list I have read comments about Thermal
>Strippers for wiring (no, it's not a group from the local club). Never
>heard of those - are they the thing to use?
There are some plug-in-the wall and battery powered thermal
strippers most often hailed as the supreme answer to stripping
"problems" in production situations. We had several styles at
Electro-Mech 25 years ago. Used them a few times . . . they
work but none were nearly as handy as the very simple, portable
tools that I could use anywhere and didn't have batteries to run
down.
Haven't felt an urge to use one since then.
See: http://216.55.140.222/articles/strippers/strippers.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
I should have let Bob answer.... If you are using the LR3's, the
schematic shows a bulb connected to the bus. I assume that the LR3 will
flash the bulb by lowering the voltage of pin5 when appropriate.
Matt Prather
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:39 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bus & Switch configuration
>
> >In case of an alternator/regulator failure (this will be
> recognized because
> >the Alt Meter goes high or low??)
>
> Your first indication of alternator failure is and always should
> be a flashing LOW BUS VOLTS warning light. this will occur in
> seconds after failure of an alternator.
>
> Bob,
>
> I have looked over the catalog's I have and can't find a flashing
> warninglight. Do you have any recommended suppliers? Would you
> recommend an
> audible alert also?
>
> Also, I assume (from the Z-14 drawing) that this warning light is
> drivenfrom the regulator?
>
> - Jim
>
>
> _-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel Switch Layout |
>
>Does anyone have picturs or drawings of the switch configurations used
>on a dual amp/dual battery panel?
>
>- Jim
Sure. See:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Bowen <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
The Niagra alt comes with provisions/directions for said light. I've been
considering getting it....
-Larry
http://BowenAero.com
--- Jim Pack wrote:
>
> >In case of an alternator/regulator failure (this will be recognized because
> >the Alt Meter goes high or low??)
>
> Your first indication of alternator failure is and always should
> be a flashing LOW BUS VOLTS warning light. this will occur in seconds
> after failure of an alternator.
>
> Bob,
>
> I have looked over the catalog's I have and can't find a flashing warning
> light. Do you have any recommended suppliers? Would you recommend an
> audible alert also?
>
> Also, I assume (from the Z-14 drawing) that this warning light is driven
> from the regulator?
>
> - Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bus & Switch configuration |
>
>I should have let Bob answer.... If you are using the LR3's, the
>schematic shows a bulb connected to the bus. I assume that the LR3 will
>flash the bulb by lowering the voltage of pin5 when appropriate.
>
>Matt Prather
You got it right. Most B&C products have the low voltage
warning light built in. If you want to build one. You can
check out:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/9021-610.pdf
. . . or we'll eventually get the low-voltage monitor/
ignition battery management module on the website.
I'm using a 28v prototype in a parachute recovery
parachute controller for the Premier I and I think
we're satisfied with the performance. All I need
is a 36-hour day.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | glen j matejcek <aerobubba(at)compuserve.com> |
Hi Bob-
We spoke on the phone today about a light timing circuit to illuminate
baggage, cockpit, and under cowling areas. Perhaps you could share that
info with the list?
Thanks again for your time and assistance!
Glen Matejcek
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low votlage annunciation |
>
>The Niagra alt comes with provisions/directions for said light. I've been
>considering getting it....
It it a TRUE low bus voltage annunciation or some variation
on the various "alternator failure" lights? It's worth your
trouble to find out for sure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Low votlage annunciation |
I'm not confident enough of my electrical skills to say. Can you tell
by the schematic: http://www.niagaraairparts.com/alt-instr.pdf
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:39 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low votlage annunciation
>
>
> -->
>
> >-->
> >
> >The Niagra alt comes with provisions/directions for said
> light. I've
> >been considering getting it....
>
> It it a TRUE low bus voltage annunciation or some variation
> on the various "alternator failure" lights? It's worth your
> trouble to find out for sure.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
> Search Engine:
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> ===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Low votlage annunciation |
Actually, I think I may this based already covered, as I amy using the
Grand Rapids EIS engine monitor. It has a light for anything out of
limits. What do you think of it?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:39 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low votlage annunciation
>
>
> -->
>
> >-->
> >
> >The Niagra alt comes with provisions/directions for said
> light. I've
> >been considering getting it....
>
> It it a TRUE low bus voltage annunciation or some variation
> on the various "alternator failure" lights? It's worth your
> trouble to find out for sure.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
> Search Engine:
> http://www.matronics.com/search
> ===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Falcon <rsdec1(at)isp01.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: Re: Keyed Start Switch |
I put a toggle switch in series with the start solenoid activation wire and
the push button switch. This requires you to flip the switch to bring the start
button alive. Then push button and then turn toggle switch off. I had plenty
of room for the additional toggle switch.
Oh, by the way, I would not recommend Bob's suggested method of child control.
The "kids" of today are taught to report any such threats to other adults
outside of the home and you will end up being arrested. One of the fallacies of
that method is that if you tell some children "not to", it is invariably a challenge
for them to find out "why shouldn't I turn on that switch" and then you
have problems. A different approach might be to take the opportunity to demonstrate
and explain why and what could happen if "I turn that switch on".
RD
..............................................
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Keyed Start Switch
>
>Does anyone know of a keyed start switch. Just a SPSD momentary contact
>switch with a key (not the standard L/R/B/S keyed ignition switch).
>Don't want the kids to be able to play pilot and accidentally crank the
>prop. If I've got the key, it won't happen even if they are sitting in
>the seat.
>
>- Jim
How about putting the start button out of sight
on a bracket just behind and above the lower lip
of the instrument panel? Keyed switches are a pain
in the arse . . . some simple adjustments with
consideration to human factors should give you
equal or better protection from what should be
a rare event anyhow.
May I suggest another safeguard for which I
can personally attest to great success:
"Kids, whether it's the kitchen stove, things
you plug in the wall, sharp things in the
drawers, daddy's tools, lawn mowers,
cars -AND- the airplane are NOT children's
toys. Touch them without daddy's permission and
supervision and you are dead meat."
My kids learned to use all those things
responsibly at appropriate times and I didn't
have to keep a big ring of keys in my pocket.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Noise in TC-what did you find out? |
Dave Hyde,
Re your noisey turn coordinator: I only saw Bob's reply asking for more
info & pursuing your line of thought on troubleshooting. Any "final
verdict" yet?
David Carter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keyed Start Switch |
>
> I put a toggle switch in series with the start solenoid activation
> wire and the push button switch. This requires you to flip the switch to
> bring the start button alive. Then push button and then turn toggle
> switch off. I had plenty of room for the additional toggle switch.
> Oh, by the way, I would not recommend Bob's suggested method of child
> control. The "kids" of today are taught to report any such threats to
> other adults outside of the home and you will end up being arrested. One
> of the fallacies of that method is that if you tell some children "not
> to", it is invariably a challenge for them to find out "why shouldn't I
> turn on that switch" and then you have problems. A different approach
> might be to take the opportunity to demonstrate and explain why and what
> could happen if "I turn that switch on".
I'll just bite my tongue on this one . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low votlage annunciation |
>
>I'm not confident enough of my electrical skills to say. Can you tell
>by the schematic: http://www.niagaraairparts.com/alt-instr.pdf
Yes. That is indeed an standard automotive alternator failure
warning system. There ARE failure modes that this light cannot
catch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Low votlage annunciation |
>
>Actually, I think I may this based already covered, as I amy using the
>Grand Rapids EIS engine monitor. It has a light for anything out of
>limits. What do you think of it?
Since the only thing it can know about alternator operation
IS bus voltage, and assuming it is or can be set for 13.0
volts, then it's a much superior alternator failure annunciator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles McCallum" <milesm(at)avnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Ignition key switches (chatter) |
>
> A related story,
>
> 20 years ago when I flew for a jump club in College the way the club
checked
> out prospective pilots would be to tell the pilot that 2 guys would jump
at
> 3000' and 2 at 4000'. One of the 3000' jumpers would shut off the gas and
> the remaining would watch the show! Your reaction determined whether you
> got to fly with them any further!
>
> Russ Werner
> HRII, Maui
>
Another one... same guy was (is) also an instructor - had a full 206 or 207,
and going through about 5K, managed to run a tank dry. though force of
habit, he talked his way through the procedures and re-start, and then
turned around to say "that wasn't so bad, was it..." - and discovered that
he was talking to an empty aeroplane!
M
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>Bob, Thanks for the reply. I have perhaps confused the issue. I have only the
>AMPCPS-3 connectors as supplied by Whelen for strobe/nav lights. These are
>flat three conductor connectors, not circular plastic units. At this time I
>have no other unusual connectors to deal with. I may not need an extract tool
>for this application however if so I can probably obtain it locally.
Hmmm . . . didn't recognize the part numbers as Mate-n-Locks . . .
don't spend much time in the AMP catalog these days. Yes, if you
have only these pins to deal with (perhaps as many as 18 crimps)
then I think your risk of needing an extraction tool is low.
>Another question: On your website the wire listed has a suffix I am not
>familiar with. An example would be M22759-16-16-4. This would be 16 gauge
>wire however what I am using is just marked M22759-16-16. My first thought
>was that this would be a four conductor wire. Please clarify this for me.
The whole part number for wire is really stated like this:
M22759/16-16-4 where M22759 is a contraction for
MIL-W-22759 . . . a family of wires featuring modern
insulations with different thicknesses and other
variations. . .
/16 which describes the variant within the 22759 family.
A few variants are described at these urls:
http://www.juddwire.com/jwelcome.nsf/mil-w-22759.htm
http://www.generalcable.com/North_America/NA_Assets/ProductBrochures/MP04_MHUWmilw22759_1678932.pdf
http://www.ablewire-cable.com/tables/138.html
A look at these web pages will give you a partial overview
of the most popular variants. /16 is widely used in GA
production aircraft and therefore available from many
distributors for reasonable prices. Some of the slash
numbers exist only in the imagination of the folks who
wrote the specification and may never have been produced
except for some off-the-wall project for which the purchaser
(government) had lots of somebody else's money to spend.
The third number describes the AWG number for the size.
The forth number is wire base color according to the old
RETMA color code for components.
Black = 0
Brown = 1
Red = 2
Orange = 3
Yellow = 4
Green = 5
Blue = 6
Violet = 7
Gray = 8
White = 9
Tan = 10 (not one of the original RETMA color values)
If there is a fifth number it will be the strip color
laid over the base color using the same codes as above.
Sooooo . . . the number you inquired about M22759/16-16-4
is 16AWG wire from the /16 vairiant of the 22759 family.
It has a base color of yellow and no stripe.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andre Beusch - Sun Switzerland Basel - Enterprise Services <Andre.Beusch(at)sun.com> |
| Subject: | Mitchel miniature EGT gauge |
Does anyone know if the Mitchell miniature EGT gauge is internally compensated
for the J type probe it is designed to work with.
I bought a cluster, and copper wire pigtails are attached to the gauge
connector.
The probe cable with mat-n-lok connector I ordered (spark plug ring type) is not
long enough to reach the instrument.
If the instrument is not compensated, I can connect the probe with copper wire,
to the probe connector inside the cabin.
Parasitic junction effect would be the same as using J-type cable, less the
added effect of the J-type cable rsistance. I guess this is the way it is
designed work.
This equipment came with no instructions, is there any somewhere?
Thanks, Andre Beusch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | M22759/16 wire color code |
My copy of MIL-W-22759/16A says that the color code used in the fourth
number shall be in accordance with MIL-STD-681. This standard only
lists 10 colors, 0 - 9. Additional digits are for stripes. A -90 would
be White with a Black stripe, a -901 would be White with a Black stripe
and a Brown stripe.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
>
> The forth number is wire base color according to the old
> RETMA color code for components.
>
> Black = 0
> Brown = 1
> Red = 2
> Orange = 3
> Yellow = 4
> Green = 5
> Blue = 6
> Violet = 7
> Gray = 8
> White = 9
> Tan = 10 (not one of the original RETMA color values)
>
> If there is a fifth number it will be the strip color
> laid over the base color using the same codes as above.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Alternator Noise |
Bob,
My RV-6 has an "All Electric on a Budget" electrical system. I am
experiencing alternator noise over the intercom. The noise goes away when I
pull the alternator field breaker. Curiously, the noise also goes away when
I close the switch to connect the aux alternator (SD-8) to the essential
buss. Can I conclude that the capacitor in the SD-8 circuit is filtering
the noise? If so, could I install a similar capacitor on the alternator
feed line to the main buss and expect the same results?
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 78 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Low votlage annunciation |
The GrandRapids EIS has completely user definable alarms. So you can set the voltage
alert for any value you like.
Also I have the hall effect amp probe as another input to look at current flow
if I like.
- Andy Karmy
> assuming it is or can be set for 13.0
> volts, then it's a much superior alternator failure annunciator.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low votlage annunciation |
>
>The GrandRapids EIS has completely user definable alarms. So you can set
>the voltage alert for any value you like.
>
>Also I have the hall effect amp probe as another input to look at current
>flow if I like.
>
>- Andy Karmy
>
>
>
> > assuming it is or can be set for 13.0
> > volts, then it's a much superior alternator failure annunciator.
That will work!
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: M22759/16 wire color code |
>
>
>My copy of MIL-W-22759/16A says that the color code used in the fourth
>number shall be in accordance with MIL-STD-681. This standard only
>lists 10 colors, 0 - 9. Additional digits are for stripes. A -90 would
>be White with a Black stripe, a -901 would be White with a Black stripe
>and a Brown stripe.
Good data points Dave. Thank you.
When are we gonna do lunch?
Bob . . .
>David Swartzendruber
>Wichita
> >
> > The forth number is wire base color according to the old
> > RETMA color code for components.
> >
> > Black = 0
> > Brown = 1
> > Red = 2
> > Orange = 3
> > Yellow = 4
> > Green = 5
> > Blue = 6
> > Violet = 7
> > Gray = 8
> > White = 9
> > Tan = 10 (not one of the original RETMA color values)
> >
> > If there is a fifth number it will be the strip color
> > laid over the base color using the same codes as above.
> >
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>My RV-6 has an "All Electric on a Budget" electrical system. I am
>experiencing alternator noise over the intercom. The noise goes away when I
>pull the alternator field breaker. Curiously, the noise also goes away when
>I close the switch to connect the aux alternator (SD-8) to the essential
>buss. Can I conclude that the capacitor in the SD-8 circuit is filtering
>the noise? If so, could I install a similar capacitor on the alternator
>feed line to the main buss and expect the same results?
>
>Ken Harrill
>RV-6, 78 hours
That seems likely. Are your main bus and ground busses located
fairly close together? Are you perchance using fuseblocks? I had
a builder a few years ago find the capacitor you are suggesting
did the trick for him too. He added a 5A fuse in a spare slot of
the main bus and added the capacitor between the new protected feed
and his ground bus.
Refresh my memory, what kind of alternator are you using? Are you
feeding the b-lead in at the starter contactor. Do you have a single
point ground system?
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Billie Lamb" <N254BL(at)cfl.rr.com> |
Anyone out have experiencine mixing the D-sub sheet metal pins and
machined pins?
My strobe system has the sheet metal ones already made up in the female
jacks but want to use the machined ones in place of the sheet metal
males they sent me, which still have to installed on the wires and
placed in their retainers.
My question is will the machined males mate properly with the sheet
metal females and vice versa or will they likely be hard to couple.
Now I know where your minds are at the moment but lets not get into
sexual innuendos. I just know that wouldn't happen on this list.
Bill Lamb
Mustang II project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub mixing |
>
>Anyone out have experiencine mixing the D-sub sheet metal pins and
>machined pins?
>My strobe system has the sheet metal ones already made up in the female
>jacks but want to use the machined ones in place of the sheet metal
>males they sent me, which still have to installed on the wires and
>placed in their retainers.
D-subs in a strobe system? First I've heard of it.
>My question is will the machined males mate properly with the sheet
>metal females and vice versa or will they likely be hard to couple.
>Now I know where your minds are at the moment but lets not get into
>sexual innuendos. I just know that wouldn't happen on this list.
Do the connnectors you're talking about on your strobe system
look like the connectors on the back of your computer?
Do they look like this?
http://216.55.140.222/articles/macservo/mac1.jpg
or are they white plastic connectors like:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/matenlok/mnlok1.jpg
and
http://216.55.140.222/articles/matenlok/mnlok6.jpg
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Magnetic Interference |
When mounting a vertical card compass on the dash of the plane, what
can/should be done to minimize the interference of electric gyro (and other)
instruments directly below it?
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andre Beusch - Sun Switzerland Basel - Enterprise Services <Andre.Beusch(at)sun.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mitchell miniature CHT gauge |
Correction, I meant CHT gauge.
Thanks, Andre
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mitchel miniature EGT gauge
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Does anyone know if the Mitchell miniature EGT gauge is internally compensated
> for the J type probe it is designed to work with.
>
> I bought a cluster, and copper wire pigtails are attached to the gauge
> connector.
>
> The probe cable with mat-n-lok connector I ordered (spark plug ring type) is
not
> long enough to reach the instrument.
>
> If the instrument is not compensated, I can connect the probe with copper wire,
> to the probe connector inside the cabin.
>
> Parasitic junction effect would be the same as using J-type cable, less the
> added effect of the J-type cable rsistance. I guess this is the way it is
> designed work.
>
> This equipment came with no instructions, is there any somewhere?
>
>
> Thanks, Andre Beusch
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wig Wag On Light |
Bob:
I have the wig wag light system from Bob Haan hooked up through a terminal
strip to a button on my Infinity Grip. The problem I am having is I can't
tell when the wig wag is actually on. I need to put some type of small light
on my console that comes on when the wig wag button is pressed and the unit
comes on? Exactly what line should I run the light off of?
Thanks !!
Len Leggette RV-8A
N901LL (res)
Greensboro, N.C.
Inpection Date Set !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>My RV-6 has an "All Electric on a Budget" electrical system. I am
>experiencing alternator noise over the intercom. The noise goes away when
I
>pull the alternator field breaker. Curiously, the noise also goes away
when
>I close the switch to connect the aux alternator (SD-8) to the essential
>buss. Can I conclude that the capacitor in the SD-8 circuit is filtering
>the noise? If so, could I install a similar capacitor on the alternator
>feed line to the main buss and expect the same results?
>
>Ken Harrill
>RV-6, 78 hours
That seems likely. Are your main bus and ground busses located
fairly close together?
No, the main and essential busses are on the left side near the instrument
panel and the ground buss is on the aft side of the firewall on the right
side. The feed line to the main buss does penetrate the firewall about 8
inches or so from the ground buss.
Are you perchance using fuseblocks?
Yes, I am using fuse blocks.
I had a builder a few years ago find the capacitor you are suggesting
did the trick for him too. He added a 5A fuse in a spare slot of
the main bus and added the capacitor between the new protected feed
and his ground bus.
This seems like a good approach. I will try this first.
Refresh my memory, what kind of alternator are you using?
B&C 60 amp alternator.
Are you feeding the b-lead in at the starter contactor.
Yes.
Do you have a single point ground system?
Yes
Once again, thanks for your help.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 78 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
>
>Bob:
>
>I have the wig wag light system from Bob Haan hooked up through a terminal
>strip to a button on my Infinity Grip. The problem I am having is I can't
>tell when the wig wag is actually on. I need to put some type of small light
>on my console that comes on when the wig wag button is pressed and the unit
>comes on? Exactly what line should I run the light off of?
I am unfamiliar with this product. If it's architecture is
similar to other products (like Galls headlight flashers
for police cars) then there is no special output from the
device to indicate WIG-WAG ON. You'll have to get this
info from the wiring and controls that you put in.
If a stick-grip switch is used to energize the system,
I deduce there must be a low-current, control input signal
that tells the Wig-Wag to go to work. Otherwise, there
must be a relay used to raise the current handling
capability of your stick grip switch to some level
appropriate to landing lights.
What is your concern? Do you want the indicator to
actually show what the lights are really doing? A rise
in your loadmeter current by 8-10 amps would show this.
If you're worrying about whether or not they're really
flashing, then a fused sense wire from one or each
lamp circuit could be brought to the panel to run
a lamp . . . which would flash in unison with lamps
on the wings. Other than changes in system loads
due to operating pitot heat, taxi lights and landing
lights, we've never had a means for knowing if
these things were actually drawing current and
probably functioning . . . what's so different
now that this has become an issue with you>
Is the reliability of the system so much in doubt
that you need to do more to monitor performance than
a simple pre-fight test? I.e., does the indicator
lamp you're asking about really add value?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetic Interference |
>
>When mounting a vertical card compass on the dash of the plane, what
>can/should be done to minimize the interference of electric gyro (and other)
>instruments directly below it?
Shouldn't be necessary. Keeps the B-lead out of the cockpit
and acres of breakers off the panel will go the furthest
toward cleaning up magnetic fields around a panel mounted
compass. The instruments you cited are seldom sources of
difficulty.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
http://216.55.140.222/articles.html
Not sure what Matt's fix to the system is supposed to do for
us. I've not noticed any "random" or nuisance html tags
in AeroElectric-List traffic. Just thought I'd run this
test to see if the "fix" strips out ALL tags
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator Noise |
> That seems likely. Are your main bus and ground busses located
> fairly close together?
>No, the main and essential busses are on the left side near the instrument
>panel and the ground buss is on the aft side of the firewall on the right
>side. The feed line to the main buss does penetrate the firewall about 8
>inches or so from the ground buss.
>
>Are you perchance using fuseblocks?
>Yes, I am using fuse blocks.
>
> I had a builder a few years ago find the capacitor you are suggesting
> did the trick for him too. He added a 5A fuse in a spare slot of
> the main bus and added the capacitor between the new protected feed
> and his ground bus.
>This seems like a good approach. I will try this first.
>
>
> Refresh my memory, what kind of alternator are you using?
>B&C 60 amp alternator.
>
>Are you feeding the b-lead in at the starter contactor.
>Yes.
>Do you have a single point ground system?
>Yes
>
>
>Once again, thanks for your help.
You've got a lot of hours on this airplane. Has the problem
always been there or did it just start up? I'm wondering
if we don't have something extra-ordinary going on here.
By-in-large, alternators installed in the system you describe
are adequately quiet.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mitchell miniature CHT gauge |
>Basel - Enterprise Services
>
>Correction, I meant CHT gauge.
>
>Thanks, Andre
If the gauge has any sort of "compensation" it
has to be built into the gauge -AND- it would
have to expect that transition from t/c wire
to copper happens in very close proximity to
the gauge.
I'd extend the t/c probe with t/c wire of the
same type and bring them into the gauge for
attachment. What color are the t/c wires
under the outer jacket?
See: http://216.55.140.222/articles/excerpt.pdf
Table 14-3
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
I've not noticed any "random" or nuisance html tags
> in AeroElectric-List traffic. Just thought I'd run this
> test to see if the "fix" strips out ALL tags
>
*** Wonder if I could get ahold of that program? I read mail on a Linux box
with a character-based mailer ( elm ), and I would just LOVE to stick in a
filter to strip all the tags.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andre Beusch - Sun Switzerland Basel - Enterprise Services <Andre.Beusch(at)sun.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mitchell miniature CHT gauge |
The probe from Mitchell came with a cable about 3 feet long ending with a black
and a white cable crimped into a 2 pin mate-n-lok
male connector. I don't know if the black and white ends are made of "J" material
or are copper wire. The outside diameter of the
black and white insulation is much larger than that of the wire inside the braided
cable assembly.
The instrument has a red and a black pigtail. When I connect the red with white
and the black with black, it indicate a (more or
less) correct temperature, I have checked this with a digital thermometer. (K-type
probe)
I have also heated the instrument, so with the copper wire splice it should change
its indication if it were compensated.
It didn't, so concluded it is not compensated. I could also open it to see if there
is a compensation mechanism, but I would loose
any warranty because one of the screw is under a sticker !
I have an EDM 700 with (I hope accurate CHT), so it is not so important anyway.
Regards,Andre
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mitchell miniature CHT gauge
>
>
> >Basel - Enterprise Services
> >
> >Correction, I meant CHT gauge.
> >
> >Thanks, Andre
>
>
> If the gauge has any sort of "compensation" it
> has to be built into the gauge -AND- it would
> have to expect that transition from t/c wire
> to copper happens in very close proximity to
> the gauge.
>
> I'd extend the t/c probe with t/c wire of the
> same type and bring them into the gauge for
> attachment. What color are the t/c wires
> under the outer jacket?
>
> See: http://216.55.140.222/articles/excerpt.pdf
> Table 14-3
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
My only concern was that in the daylight I cannot see the lights flashing
thus forget to turn them off. The button on the Infiniti grip is a
pushbutton so you don't see an off/on indication. I like to use the flash
while approaching and landing whether day or night.
I guess I can just use the current load change as an indicator that they are
on or off.
Thanks !!
Len
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
I've just uploaded a variation of the Generic
lightplane power distribution diagram to my website
at:
http://222.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
This drawing combines Z-11 with Z-30 (adding second
battery) for electrically dependent automotive engines
with single alternators.
Suggest you print this .pdf and blow it up by 155% on
a copy machine to make an easy to read 11" x 17" drawing.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lonnwood" <lonnwood(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Low votlage annunciation |
>
> The GrandRapids EIS has completely user definable alarms. So you can set
the voltage alert for any value you like.
>
> Also I have the hall effect amp probe as another input to look at current
flow if I like.
>
> - Andy Karmy
>
Can anybody tell me the chip maker or part number of these kind of hall
effect sensors to detect a current
in a wire?
Thanks,
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
In a message dated 9/13/02 10:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> I've just uploaded a variation of the Generic
> lightplane power distribution diagram to my website
> at:
>
>
> http://222.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
>
Good Morning Bob and All,
I just tried that site and all I got was: "Web Site Not Responding."
Anybody else had better luck?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> I've not noticed any "random" or nuisance html tags
> > in AeroElectric-List traffic. Just thought I'd run this
> > test to see if the "fix" strips out ALL tags
> >
>*** Wonder if I could get ahold of that program? I read mail on a Linux box
>with a character-based mailer ( elm ), and I would just LOVE to stick in a
>filter to strip all the tags.
Drop Matt a note and see what he needs to share the
code.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
Love to see it however unable to go there. Says site page not available.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-11A
>
> I've just uploaded a variation of the Generic
> lightplane power distribution diagram to my website
> at:
>
>
> http://222.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
>
> This drawing combines Z-11 with Z-30 (adding second
> battery) for electrically dependent automotive engines
> with single alternators.
>
> Suggest you print this .pdf and blow it up by 155% on
> a copy machine to make an easy to read 11" x 17" drawing.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
>>Bob:
>>I have the wig wag light system from Bob Haan hooked up through a
> I am unfamiliar with this product. If it's architecture is
The Wig/Wag controller from Bob Hann uses simple ground control circuits to turn
on the functions. So you switch the leads to ground to select left on, right
on, both, wig/wag etc.
If you are going to use a push button to control the Wig/Wag on / off then it must
be a latching (don't know the right term here) button that stays either on
or off. Otherwise if it's momentary you'll have to build up some sort of latching
relay system to drive it.
So like Bob said, what's wrong with looking at the push switch to see if it's down
or up?
My system uses standard panel switches and the indication is purely mechanical
in nature (switch up, system on)
- Andy Karmy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Low votlage annunciation |
>
>
> >
> > The GrandRapids EIS has completely user definable alarms. So you can set
>the voltage alert for any value you like.
> >
> > Also I have the hall effect amp probe as another input to look at current
>flow if I like.
> >
> > - Andy Karmy
> >
>Can anybody tell me the chip maker or part number of these kind of hall
>effect sensors to detect a current
>in a wire?
>Thanks,
>Lonnie
Do a Google search on "hall effect current sensors"
You'll get about 300 hits and lots of sources.
One of my favorites is:
http://www.west.net/~escor/
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
>
>
>Love to see it however unable to go there. Says site page not available.
>
>Paul
Hmmm . . . not sure what the problem is. I tried the echoed link
and my browser wouldn't jump to it. Tried re-entering the link
and sent it to my other e-mail account and it worked. Soooo . . .
try again:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Bowen <lcbowen(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Low votlage annunciation |
Aren't they available from GrandRapids?
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The GrandRapids EIS has completely user definable alarms. So you can set
> >the voltage alert for any value you like.
> > >
> > > Also I have the hall effect amp probe as another input to look at current
> >flow if I like.
> > >
> > > - Andy Karmy
> > >
> >Can anybody tell me the chip maker or part number of these kind of hall
> >effect sensors to detect a current
> >in a wire?
> >Thanks,
> >Lonnie
>
>
> Do a Google search on "hall effect current sensors"
>
> You'll get about 300 hits and lots of sources.
> One of my favorites is:
>
> http://www.west.net/~escor/
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://news.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
>
>My only concern was that in the daylight I cannot see the lights flashing
>thus forget to turn them off. The button on the Infiniti grip is a
>pushbutton so you don't see an off/on indication. I like to use the flash
>while approaching and landing whether day or night.
A momentary push button or an alternate action. In other words,
push-on/push-off or do you hold it down to keep it on?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
Has anyone used the Whelen UHF2150 automotive wig-wag controller?
Can anyone see any problems with using this wig-wag for aircraft use?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
It is a push on / push off.
Len
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
That Worked TX
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-11A
>
> >
> >
> >Love to see it however unable to go there. Says site page not available.
> >
> >Paul
>
> Hmmm . . . not sure what the problem is. I tried the echoed link
> and my browser wouldn't jump to it. Tried re-entering the link
> and sent it to my other e-mail account and it worked. Soooo . . .
> try again:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stipping HTML and Other Stuff... |
At 07:47 AM 9/13/2002 Friday, you wrote:
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> I've not noticed any "random" or nuisance html tags
> > in AeroElectric-List traffic. Just thought I'd run this
> > test to see if the "fix" strips out ALL tags
> >
>*** Wonder if I could get ahold of that program? I read mail on a Linux box
>with a character-based mailer ( elm ), and I would just LOVE to stick in a
>filter to strip all the tags.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
Sure, no problem. Just remember me around Fund Raiser time... :-)
I actually have two programs that I use together to strip out all of the
HTML and other enclosure data. If an email is crafted correctly according
to standards, any HTML data should be included in a separately MIME encoded
portion of the message along with the Plain Text version of the
message. Stipmime.pl (use the command line "perl stripmime.pl" to run, by
the way) looks into the message and strips out any sections that are not
Plain Text including enclosures and HTML versions of the message.
The problem is that a number of mail systems such as Hotmail.com and a ton
of spammers have taken to simply encoding the body of the message in HTML
and not using MIME to encode a Plain Text version of the message as
well. Since Stripmime.pl doesn't find any MIME encoding in these messages,
all of the HTML tagging slips right through.
Enter the "clean_html" program. This program looks though the text for the
most common HTML tags and strips them out. It also re-reformats text that
"=" at the end and then the rest line is wrapped onto a new line. This
causes a problem since many times HTML Tags get split and its hard to
detect them.
So, to use these two programs, one needs to have some late-model version of
UNIX such as Linux. These probably won't work with Windows unless you're
willing to do a lot of modifications and playing around. To add the
filtering, edit your /etc/aliases file and add the following line
(assuming, for example, your username on the system is joesmith):
joesmith: "|/usr/bin/perl /[location of program]/stripmime.pl | /[location
of program]/clean_html | /usr/sbin/sendmail joesmith"
Depending on a variety of things, you might have to modify this line some
to get things to work. Be sure to run "newaliases" after editing the
/etc/aliases file.
Finally, here are two links to the program (hold the shift key down when
you click on the links so as to download rather than display the files):
http://www.matronics.com/personal/stripmime.pl
http://www.matronics.com/personal/clean_html
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 09/12/02 |
Just thought I'd post a message on this list that someone who is a
participant here apparently has the KLEZ virus on their computer, and its
sending out propagation email (usually with a stupid topic like "Try this
game!" or "A very funny game") to everyone on his Outlook or Outlook Express
address book.
I received an automated notice from Matt that advised me I had sent a virus
infected email to the AeroElectric List, when in fact, I had not. I have not
sent a message here in many months. Someone else, who has both the
AeroElectric list address and MY email address on their computer, has the
KLEZ worm virus, and it likes to send out BOGUS EMAIL that appears to come
from ANOTHER PERSON, someone on the address book of the infected computer.
I.e., it comes from the infected computer, but appears to come from someone
else.
So... everyone on this list: Please buy some anti-virus software (there
is an excellent one for FREE from the AVG group, but I don't know their web
site URL) and have it scan your computer entirely for viruses. Somoene who
has MY return address on their computer has the virus, and its sending out
bogus virus infected email using my return address... and it makes me look
bad! I know I do NOT have any virus on this computer.. I've got plenty of
anti-virus software and it regularly scans for viruses. Further, I never
download attached files, not even from people I know, (because that's how the
KLEZ virus works!) unless I have asked for the attached file myself.
Thanks!
Dan Eikleberry
RV-6
100+ hours... still blowing the exhaust pipes off in flight ... 3rd time.
Gotta buy some Vetterman's exhaust, I guess...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | RE: Alternator Noise |
> That seems likely. Are your main bus and ground busses located
> fairly close together?
>No, the main and essential busses are on the left side near the instrument
>panel and the ground buss is on the aft side of the firewall on the right
>side. The feed line to the main buss does penetrate the firewall about 8
>inches or so from the ground buss.
>
>Are you perchance using fuseblocks?
>Yes, I am using fuse blocks.
>
> I had a builder a few years ago find the capacitor you are suggesting
> did the trick for him too. He added a 5A fuse in a spare slot of
> the main bus and added the capacitor between the new protected feed
> and his ground bus.
>This seems like a good approach. I will try this first.
>
>
> Refresh my memory, what kind of alternator are you using?
>B&C 60 amp alternator.
>
>Are you feeding the b-lead in at the starter contactor.
>Yes.
>Do you have a single point ground system?
>Yes
>
>
>Once again, thanks for your help.
You've got a lot of hours on this airplane. Has the problem
always been there or did it just start up? I'm wondering
if we don't have something extra-ordinary going on here.
By-in-large, alternators installed in the system you describe
are adequately quiet.
Bob . . .
Bob,
The noise is much more annoying during ground operations. I hardly notice
it in the air. I honestly don't know if the noise was there from the first
flight.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 78 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Billie Lamb" <N254BL(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub mixing |
More like the 2nd and third ones. Now that you mention it I should have
compared them. They're a whole different animal. I suppose they require a
different set of tools for installation and removal.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-sub mixing
>
> >
> >Anyone out have experiencine mixing the D-sub sheet metal pins and
> >machined pins?
>
>
> >My strobe system has the sheet metal ones already made up in the female
> >jacks but want to use the machined ones in place of the sheet metal
> >males they sent me, which still have to installed on the wires and
> >placed in their retainers.
>
> D-subs in a strobe system? First I've heard of it.
>
> >My question is will the machined males mate properly with the sheet
> >metal females and vice versa or will they likely be hard to couple.
> >Now I know where your minds are at the moment but lets not get into
> >sexual innuendos. I just know that wouldn't happen on this list.
>
> Do the connnectors you're talking about on your strobe system
> look like the connectors on the back of your computer?
> Do they look like this?
>
> http://216.55.140.222/articles/macservo/mac1.jpg
>
> or are they white plastic connectors like:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/articles/matenlok/mnlok1.jpg
> and
> http://216.55.140.222/articles/matenlok/mnlok6.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Hartzell recommendations regarding Lightspeed Electonic |
Ignition
I emailed Brad at Hartzell with questions regarding safe operation of a
Hartzell C/S prop on an engine with Lightspeed EI. His response is copied
below.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 78 hours
Hi Ken,
Attached is a document which will help to clarify our position on operating
your Hartzell Propeller with the lightspeed ignition system. I hope this
helps you determine how you want to operate your aircraft.
Best Regards,
Brad Huelsman
The Hartzell Propeller Model HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2 has been vibrationally
approved per FAR23.907 on the standard production Lycoming Engine Model
O-360-A1A, and similar models, rated at 180 HP at 2700 RPM with a
restriction to avoid continuous operation between 2000 and 2250 RPM. The
propeller vibration characteristics and stress amplitudes on a reciprocating
engine installation are primarily mechanically generated by the engine. Any
modification to the standard engine configuration to include high
compression pistons, electronic ignition, FADEC, tuned induction and
exhaust, and turbocharging or turbonormalizing have the potential to
adversely effect the propeller vibration characteristics and stress
amplitudes. Hartzell Propeller, therefore, does not endorse any such engine
modification unless the specific engine and propeller configurations have
been tested and found to be acceptable vibrationwise.
The Lightspeed electronic ignition is not certified for use on any aircraft
engines so its use is limited to the experimental/amateur built market.
Hartzell recently conducted a test with the propeller model
HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2 installed on a standard Lycoming O-360-A1A engine,
except for a modification to equip it with the Lightspeed ignition in place
of one magneto. The results of this test show an increase in the propeller
vibratory stress amplitudes within the 2000-2250 RPM range currently covered
by the operating restriction noted in the first paragraph, and additionally
above 2600 RPM with high power settings. Based on this data, continued safe
use of this propeller on O-360-A1A and similar engines equipped with
Lightspeed electronic ignition would require the following:
1. Continuation of the current restriction to avoid continuous
operation between 2000 and 2250 RPM.
2. An additional restriction to limit operations above 2600 RPM to
takeoff. As soon as practical after takeoff the RPM should be reduced to
2600 or below.
3. The propeller blades are life limited to 20,000 hours of operation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
Andy:
The switch I am using is one on my Infiniti Stick Grip. It is a push/on ...
push/off button not a momentary. There is no way to look at it and see if it
is on which is the problem.
Len Leggette RV-8A
N901LL (res)
Greensboro, N.C.
Inpection Date Set !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
Well, you could swap out the switch from an SPST (if that's what it is)
to a DPST, and add one more wire for an indicator light (the other end
of the added pole could go to your common ground inside the grip, or
else bring it out also). Talk to infinity, he's got all the switches you
could want, or you could find one yourself at DigiKey.
-John R.
Lenleg(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Andy:
>
> The switch I am using is one on my Infiniti Stick Grip. It is a push/on ...
> push/off button not a momentary. There is no way to look at it and see if it
> is on which is the problem.
>
> Len Leggette RV-8A
> N901LL (res)
> Greensboro, N.C.
> Inpection Date Set !!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub mixing |
>
>More like the 2nd and third ones. Now that you mention it I should have
>compared them. They're a whole different animal. I suppose they require a
>different set of tools for installation and removal.
Right. These are not d-subs. There are two popular varieties
from AMP (Mate-n-Lock) and Waldom/Molex. Neither brand
will offer machined pins. You can install the sheet-metal
pins with our BCT-1 crimp tool. Male pins are easy to remove
with a scratch awl. Given that you have so few total pins
to install and all you need to do is match colors across
the connector halves, it's unlikely that you'll ever
need an extraction tool.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Blue Mountain update (Efis lt) |
I finally received my (one of a kind) Efis light. Greg split the case and display
so I might customize the installation (smaller panel footprint). I have modified
Greg's bezel, constructed an enclosure(smaller than Blue Mountains) and
am installing this weekend. The unit looks terrific and the quality is excellent.
I would plan a larger space, in the top middle of your panel for the light
if you are thinking about it. Just a quarter of an inch horizontal and about
1/2 " vertical (more than typical space for the stock AG). I will post some
early install pictures and notify list this weekend. Looks good, finally.
Greg advised me last week that all units are shipping with a GPS antenna receiver
and an easy upgrade to moving terrain for about $300.00. This unit just keeps
getting more valuable!
Dave Aronson
RV4 N504RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Just thought I'd post a message on this list that someone who is a
>participant here apparently has the KLEZ virus on their computer, and its
>sending out propagation email (usually with a stupid topic like "Try this
>game!" or "A very funny game") to everyone on his Outlook or Outlook Express
>address book.
> So... everyone on this list: Please buy some anti-virus software (there
>is an excellent one for FREE from the AVG group, but I don't know their web
>site URL) and have it scan your computer entirely for viruses. Somoene who
>has MY return address on their computer has the virus, and its sending out
>bogus virus infected email using my return address... and it makes me look
>bad! I know I do NOT have any virus on this computer.. I've got plenty of
>anti-virus software and it regularly scans for viruses. Further, I never
>download attached files, not even from people I know, (because that's how the
>KLEZ virus works!) unless I have asked for the attached file myself.
I get these notices all the time. If your e-mail address is
very visible on the net or even if Klez finds it on somebody's
machine, it knows how to spoof your address on top of a virus-
laden message. I get infected messages from people all the time
and I also get notices that my message to someone was rejected
because it was infected . . . when in fact, I don't even know
the person/e-mail address to which the message was sent.
Not something to be particularly concerned about or spend a
lot of time reacting to. AVG is good software. We've used it
here for several years on all the computers in our system. It's
done a really good job keeping the virii out. Keep up to date
on Microsoft security issues with XP and if possible, avoid
use of Microsoft e-mail programs. These are BIG targets for
the maliciously inclined.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
>
>Andy:
>
>The switch I am using is one on my Infiniti Stick Grip. It is a push/on ...
>push/off button not a momentary. There is no way to look at it and see if it
>is on which is the problem.
>
>Len Leggette RV-8A
>N901LL (res)
>Greensboro, N.C.
>Inpection Date Set !!
That's pretty easy then. The little switch either sends a (+) or
grounding command to the wig-wag circuit to initiate operation . . .
you could just hook an indicator lamp to accept the same kind
of command to illuminate.
Are there any published drawings as to how the Wig-Wag is wired?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Slaughter" <willslau(at)alumni.rice.edu> |
| Subject: | Hartzell recommendations regarding Lightspeed Electonic |
Ignition
This is a propeller problem, not an ignition system problem.
William Slaughter
RV-8 still building
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Harrill
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hartzell recommendations regarding
Lightspeed Electonic Ignition
I emailed Brad at Hartzell with questions regarding safe operation of a
Hartzell C/S prop on an engine with Lightspeed EI. His response is copied
below.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 78 hours
Hi Ken,
Attached is a document which will help to clarify our position on operating
your Hartzell Propeller with the lightspeed ignition system. I hope this
helps you determine how you want to operate your aircraft.
Best Regards,
Brad Huelsman
The Hartzell Propeller Model HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2 has been vibrationally
approved per FAR23.907 on the standard production Lycoming Engine Model
O-360-A1A, and similar models, rated at 180 HP at 2700 RPM with a
restriction to avoid continuous operation between 2000 and 2250 RPM. The
propeller vibration characteristics and stress amplitudes on a reciprocating
engine installation are primarily mechanically generated by the engine. Any
modification to the standard engine configuration to include high
compression pistons, electronic ignition, FADEC, tuned induction and
exhaust, and turbocharging or turbonormalizing have the potential to
adversely effect the propeller vibration characteristics and stress
amplitudes. Hartzell Propeller, therefore, does not endorse any such engine
modification unless the specific engine and propeller configurations have
been tested and found to be acceptable vibrationwise.
The Lightspeed electronic ignition is not certified for use on any aircraft
engines so its use is limited to the experimental/amateur built market.
Hartzell recently conducted a test with the propeller model
HC-C2YK-1BF/F7666A-2 installed on a standard Lycoming O-360-A1A engine,
except for a modification to equip it with the Lightspeed ignition in place
of one magneto. The results of this test show an increase in the propeller
vibratory stress amplitudes within the 2000-2250 RPM range currently covered
by the operating restriction noted in the first paragraph, and additionally
above 2600 RPM with high power settings. Based on this data, continued safe
use of this propeller on O-360-A1A and similar engines equipped with
Lightspeed electronic ignition would require the following:
1. Continuation of the current restriction to avoid continuous
operation between 2000 and 2250 RPM.
2. An additional restriction to limit operations above 2600 RPM to
takeoff. As soon as practical after takeoff the RPM should be reduced to
2600 or below.
3. The propeller blades are life limited to 20,000 hours of
operation.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
Can someone tell me how to unsubscribe from this list?
Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
Couldn't be easier, just scroll to the bottom of the message.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE:screws
>
> Can someone tell me how to unsubscribe from this list?
>
> Cliff
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag On Light |
Bob:
Here is the link to Bob's webpage .. I am having trouble getting the page to
come up ... if you have trouble I can fax you the wiring page. Bob's RV-6
Thanks !!
Len Leggette RV-8A
N901LL (res)
Greensboro, N.C.
Inpection Date Set !!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | AEC 9008 VOR/GPS Relay Indicator Board |
I've been communicating with Bob on this subject and here's the deal---
I will make the AEC 9008 VOR/GPS Relay Indicator Board complete in a flame retardant
plastic box if I can get three buyers. (Three is the minimum number of
PCBs I can order.). Total to you (USA) $105.00 Shipping included.
OR
I will share with you my design (as soon as I finish checking it). The parts list
totals $60.
It goes into a Serpac C10 case which is 2.3" X 3.25" X 0.8". No charge for information.
OR
I will sell a complete kit of parts and instructions. (We also need three builders).
$85 Shipping included.
I have added another 1N4005 diode and am still contemplating adding a diagnostic
LED. The schematic pinout has been changed to simplify wiring, otherwise it
is the same as Bob's design, the relay switches 18 lines.
Please email me off line.
Thanks,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Latimer" <jlatimer1(at)cox.net> |
Look at the bottom of this text and click on unsubscribe.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: <FlyV35B(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE:screws
>
> Can someone tell me how to unsubscribe from this list?
>
> Cliff
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob,
On the schematic for the low voltage warning, what is the part number for
Z127 and what is 6KP17
12V
Z110
Cash Copeland
Oakland, Ca
>
>I should have let Bob answer.... If you are using the LR3's, the
>schematic shows a bulb connected to the bus. I assume that the LR3 will
>flash the bulb by lowering the voltage of pin5 when appropriate.
>
>Matt Prather
You got it right. Most B&C products have the low voltage
warning light built in. If you want to build one. You can
check out:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/9021-610.pdf
. . . or we'll eventually get the low-voltage monitor/
ignition battery management module on the website.
I'm using a 28v prototype in a parachute recovery
parachute controller for the Premier I and I think
we're satisfied with the performance. All I need
is a 36-hour day.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Low Voltage Warning Light |
Bob,
I am resending this post as the formatting was off on the last.
On the schematic for the low voltage warning, what is the part number for
Z127 and what is Z110 / 6KP17. Can an incandescent bulb be substituted for
the LED?
Cash Copeland
Oakland, Ca
>
>I should have let Bob answer.... If you are using the LR3's, the
>schematic shows a bulb connected to the bus. I assume that the LR3 will
>flash the bulb by lowering the voltage of pin5 when appropriate.
>
>Matt Prather
You got it right. Most B&C products have the low voltage
warning light built in. If you want to build one. You can
check out:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/9021-610.pdf
. . . or we'll eventually get the low-voltage monitor/
ignition battery management module on the website.
I'm using a 28v prototype in a parachute recovery
parachute controller for the Premier I and I think
we're satisfied with the performance. All I need
is a 36-hour day.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Also:
You might want to send everyone on your eMail list the Symantec virus scanner:
http://security1.norton.com/ssc/home.asp?j1&langidus&venidsym&plfid20&pkjXYGJABOKQYWTFVRHRMS
This is the only way to know who has it.
www.Half.com routinely sells Norton Antivirus as part of Norton System Works or Norton Antivirus etc. for the price of a cheeseburger at McDonalds. Grab one today.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mcculleyja(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Un-compensated CHT Instruments |
In a message dated 9/14/02 2:53:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Andre Beusch on
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Does anyone know if the Mitchell miniature CHT gauge is internally
compensated >for the J type probe it is designed to work with.
You can generally determine whether any conventional thermocouple driven
gauge is compensted internally by simply observing the indicated temperature
it displays when not connected to the input leads. If compensated, it will
not change when observed while chilled in a refrigerator versus at room
temperature (or even MILDLY warmed with, say a hair dryer). However, if not
compensated it will tend to display a change toward the higher or lower
temperature the instrument itself is exposed to.
Another strong indicator is the price range of the gauge----compensated
gauges are usually much more expensive---sometimes by a factor of twice to
three times that of the uncompensated variety.
Jim McCulley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Management |
Module
>
>Bob,
>I am resending this post as the formatting was off on the last.
>On the schematic for the low voltage warning, what is the part number for
>Z127 and what is Z110 / 6KP17. Can an incandescent bulb be substituted for
>the LED?
>
>
>Cash Copeland
>Oakland, Ca
The Z110/6KP17 was an artifact left over from a larger drawing
that I clipped the circuit from. Ignore these.
In fact, I've finished a Shop Notes article and new diagram for
the Low Voltage Warning with optional Aux Battery Management
feature. AeroElectric-List readers get a first look at it
here:
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
The bytes are still warm from having been squished through
all those tiny fiber optic bundles on their way from Wichita
to San Diego. I'd appreciate feedback on any errors of spelling
or omission that any of you find.
The circuit is designed for use with an LED and an incandescent
lamp cannot be substituted. The shop notes show how to build
a low cost, robust LED lamp fixture to go with the module. This
is the same fixture we sold with our voltmeter/loadmeter combo.
If you gotta have an incandescent lamp output and DON'T need/want
the aux battery management feature, then disconnect R119 from
pin 7 of U107 and move it to pin 3 of U110. You can then
use Q114 to pull down on an incandescent lamp for low voltage
warning.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gretz aero" <warrengretz(at)gretzaero.com> |
"Tailwind-List" ,
"RV-List" ,
"Rocket-List" ,
"Lancair-List" ,
"Glasair-List" ,
"EZ-List" ,
"AeroElectric-List" ,
"Avionics-List"
| Subject: | Gretz Aero at Copperstate |
Hello listers,
This is inform you that Gretz Aero will have a booth at Copperstate EAA Regional
Fly-In this year. The dates of the Fly-In are October 10, 11, 12, and 13th.
The Gretz Aero booth will be in booth spaces 11,12 and 13. Stop by and say hello.
We will have "show special" pricing on some popular items.
Copperstate is at a new location this year and is located south of the Phoenix metro area at the Phoenix Regional Grand Valley Airport (A39). Copperstate has a webpage at http://www.copperstate.org for more information.
You can visit the Gretz Aero webpage at http://www.gretzaero.com to get an idea of the Gretz Aero products before you arrive at Copperstate.
See you there!
Warren Gretz
Gretz Aero
720-308-0010 cell days
303-770-3811 home office, evenings and weekends
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Management |
Module
> http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
>
> The bytes are still warm from having been squished through
> all those tiny fiber optic bundles on their way from Wichita
> to San Diego. I'd appreciate feedback on any errors of spelling
> or omission that any of you find.
>
Bob,
This looks like something I definately need, but I don't see any
instructions on building the low voltage module itself. The above reference
tells me all about connecting wires to LED's. I saw the schematic and parts
list for the LV module, but "electronically challenged" people like me need
more help than that - like maybe a picture of the finished board and
step-by-step assembly / testing notes similar to those Jim Weir gives with
his intercom system (which I managed to struggle through). The IDEAL would
be a little kit with all the required parts and instructions in a plastic
bag - I'd be happy to PAY for such a kit.
Finally you mention the "aux battery management" feature, but you dont say
what it does.
Regards,
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery |
Management Module
There's a hyperlink in the first paragraph to the pdf file. I missed it the
first time, too.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux
Battery Management Module
> Bob,
> This looks like something I definately need, but I don't see any
> instructions on building the low voltage module itself. The above
reference
> tells me all about connecting wires to LED's. I saw the schematic and
parts
> list for the LV module, but "electronically challenged" people like me
need
> more help than that - like maybe a picture of the finished board and
> step-by-step assembly / testing notes similar to those Jim Weir gives with
> his intercom system (which I managed to struggle through). The IDEAL
would
> be a little kit with all the required parts and instructions in a plastic
> bag - I'd be happy to PAY for such a kit.
>
> Finally you mention the "aux battery management" feature, but you dont say
> what it does.
> Regards,
> John Slade
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Management |
Module
> There's a hyperlink in the first paragraph to the pdf file. I
> missed it the first time, too.
I got the schematic and parts list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pazmany Newsletter" <pazmanynewsletter(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel tank grounding |
Hi Electric Bob,
This might be a bit outside of your area of expertise, but I'd like your
opinion anyway. And my question IS electrical in nature.
I'm building a Pazmany PL-2 that has two fiberglass fuel tanks, each with an
aluminum filler neck. The neck is electrically isolated from the airframe,
and I'm concerned that when refueling, the ground line that is attached from
the fuel truck to the airframe will not be effective in grounding the filler
neck. If a static charge had built up on the tank during flight, grounding
the airframe would have no effect on the tanks, and a spark might occur when
the grounded fuel truck nozzle is touched to the ungrounded filler neck.
So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question is
should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire), or should
I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that electronic
technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed off
slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection, but I'm
not sure if that's what I want in this case.
Your thoughts?
Thanks,
Ken Brown
La Mesa, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
>
>
>Hi Electric Bob,
>
>This might be a bit outside of your area of expertise, but I'd like your
>opinion anyway. And my question IS electrical in nature.
>
>I'm building a Pazmany PL-2 that has two fiberglass fuel tanks, each with an
>aluminum filler neck. The neck is electrically isolated from the airframe,
>and I'm concerned that when refueling, the ground line that is attached from
>the fuel truck to the airframe will not be effective in grounding the filler
>neck. If a static charge had built up on the tank during flight, grounding
>the airframe would have no effect on the tanks, and a spark might occur when
>the grounded fuel truck nozzle is touched to the ungrounded filler neck.
>
>So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question is
>should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire), or should
>I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that electronic
>technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
>understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed off
>slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection, but I'm
>not sure if that's what I want in this case.
When a fueler walks up to a Sundowner and puts the nozzle into
the tank, the electrical connection between the fuel truck ground
and the rim of the filler neck is pretty low resistance. I can't
think of any good reason to make that something different for
a plastic airplane.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 09/15/02 |
| From: | "Nick Hammond" <Nick.Hammond(at)saabsystems.com.au> |
Bob,
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
>The bytes are still warm from having been squished through
>all those tiny fiber optic bundles on their way from Wichita
>to San Diego. I'd appreciate feedback on any errors of spelling
>or omission that any of you find.
I'm hesitant to call it a mistake but I don't see the purpose of D117 on your schematic
-- this is a high intensity LED wired in series with the Panel LED and
apparently inside the electronics box. Your earlier low voltage warning (9021-610.pdf)
uses only one LED which seems fine to me.
Best regards,
Nick Hammond
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Freddie Freeloader <lists(at)stevet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
At Sunday, 15 September 2002, you wrote:
>net>
>
>Hi Electric Bob,
>
>This might be a bit outside of your area of expertise, but I'd like
your
>opinion anyway. And my question IS electrical in nature.
>
>I'm building a Pazmany PL-2 that has two fiberglass fuel tanks,
each with an
>aluminum filler neck. The neck is electrically isolated from the
airframe,
>and I'm concerned that when refueling, the ground line that is attached
from
>the fuel truck to the airframe will not be effective in grounding
the filler
>neck. If a static charge had built up on the tank during flight,
grounding
>the airframe would have no effect on the tanks, and a spark might
occur when
>the grounded fuel truck nozzle is touched to the ungrounded filler
neck.
>
>So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question
is
>should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire),
or should
>I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that
electronic
>technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
>understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed
off
>slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection,
but I'm
>not sure if that's what I want in this case.
>
>Your thoughts?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ken Brown
>La Mesa, CA
>
Ken,
We Glasair builders have had many discussions on the same subject.
Some have gone to the trouble of grounding the fuel filler neck
and most have not. In a Glasair, the grounding wire must be either
routed through the fuel tank, or on the top of the wing; both options
not really ideal.
The factory spent some time looking at alternatives and found that
if you wipe the area around the filler with a damp cloth before fueling,
the static buildup is eliminated. This is the route that I plan
to take.
Freddie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
> >I'm building a Pazmany PL-2 that has two fiberglass fuel tanks,
> each with an aluminum filler neck. The neck is electrically isolated from
> the airframe, and I'm concerned that when refueling, the ground line that
is
> attached from the fuel truck to the airframe will not be effective in
> grounding the fillerneck. If a static charge had built up on the tank
during
> flight, grounding the airframe would have no effect on the tanks, and a
spark
> might occur when the grounded fuel truck nozzle is touched to the
ungrounded filler neck.
> >
> >So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question is
> >should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire), or
should
> >I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that
electronic
> >technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
> >understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed off
> >slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection, but
I'm
> >not sure if that's what I want in this case.
>
Perhaps I can contribute something here. The Cozy also has plastic tanks and
an aluminum filler. The problem, as I understand it, is the build up of
static from the fuel as it flows into the tank. The potential is for a
static spark to the surface of the fuel in the tank. I seem to remember
reading that ignition of the fuel has occured a couple of times in very low
humidity. The recommended solution for Cozy builders is a thin braided
copper wire from the fuel cap into the fuel with a triangle of copper on the
end (so the cap can't come off). WHen the cap is removed, the wire contacts
the filler ring. This makes an electrical connection between the fuel
already in the tank, and the filler ring. You touch the filler nozzel to the
ring before commencing fuel flow in order to get everything to the same
potential. I don't know if connecting the filler ring to the airframe ground
makes any difference when you have a plastic tank. It's the fuel in the tank
that has to be grounded (or rather, brought to the same potential as the
filler nozzel).
I'm sure there's someone out there who could explain this better.
John Slade
Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> When a fueler walks up to a Sundowner and puts the nozzle into
> the tank, the electrical connection between the fuel truck ground
> and the rim of the filler neck is pretty low resistance. I can't
> think of any good reason to make that something different for
> a plastic airplane.
>
*** Hi Bob,
Why do you specifically mention Sundowners? Is it because of the bonded
wing?
- Jerry "Happy Sundowner Owner" Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
My understanding of the reason for having a resistive connection to
ground on
ESD straps is shock safety. If you had a big, fat wire connecting your
body to
ground, and then you got hooked (inadvertantly) up to a high
voltage/current line,
it would be pretty dangerous. The resistive ground strap reduces the
current that
your body would cary in the event of a shock. It doesn't make a whit of
difference
to the devices you are trying to protect.
Matt-
Pazmany Newsletter wrote:
>
>Hi Electric Bob,
>
........
>
>So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question is
>should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire), or should
>I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that electronic
>technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
>understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed off
>slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection, but I'm
>not sure if that's what I want in this case.
>
>Your thoughts?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ken Brown
>La Mesa, CA
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Bob,
Your book states that an 80 amp fuse should be used for the 60 amp B&C
alternator.
What should be used for a 20 amp standby B&C alternator?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pazmany Newsletter" <pazmanynewsletter(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Bob,
My concern is that as the fueler brings the grounded nozzle close to the
ungrounded filler neck, a spark might jump between the two before they make
contact. And with the fuel tank open, the fuel to air mixture might be at
the correct ratio to support combustion.
Experimenter magazine had an article on this subject a couple of months ago,
and there's been ongoing discussion in the Letters to the Editor column.
One letter writer recommended going to the Petroleum Equipment Institute's
website for more information. Here's a link to an article about fires in
plastic gas cans. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm
I think I'm going to connect the neck to the airframe so that if any spark
is going to occur, it will happen where the fueler hooks up his ground line,
not at the filler neck.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
> >
> >
> >Hi Electric Bob,
> >
> >This might be a bit outside of your area of expertise, but I'd like your
> >opinion anyway. And my question IS electrical in nature.
> >
> >I'm building a Pazmany PL-2 that has two fiberglass fuel tanks, each with
an
> >aluminum filler neck. The neck is electrically isolated from the
airframe,
> >and I'm concerned that when refueling, the ground line that is attached
from
> >the fuel truck to the airframe will not be effective in grounding the
filler
> >neck. If a static charge had built up on the tank during flight,
grounding
> >the airframe would have no effect on the tanks, and a spark might occur
when
> >the grounded fuel truck nozzle is touched to the ungrounded filler neck.
> >
> >So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question is
> >should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire), or
should
> >I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that
electronic
> >technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
> >understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed off
> >slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection, but
I'm
> >not sure if that's what I want in this case.
>
> When a fueler walks up to a Sundowner and puts the nozzle into
> the tank, the electrical connection between the fuel truck ground
> and the rim of the filler neck is pretty low resistance. I can't
> think of any good reason to make that something different for
> a plastic airplane.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 Circuit Questions |
> Assuming you're designing for a 14v airplane, the short term
> surge requirement is 40v for, I believe, 100 uSeconds. The
> HV versions of the LM317 will handle this. Or, depending on your
> current draw, a series resistance in the supply line to the 7805
> followed by a shunt zener or transorb works better yet. This
> will cover your 300V spike requirement too.
>
>
Using the 7805, do I use a 20v zener go on the 12v side or should it be a 6
volt zener on the 5 volt side of the 7805? I would think that it goes on
the 12v side to protect the 7805. Is the purpose of the series resister to
help spread the heat between the resister and the 7805? Would a 4 ohm 5
watt resister do the trick, assuming that I am using 1 amp in my circuit?
Thanks
Bob K.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dual alternator/dual battery question. |
>>I am planning on using the SD-20 so I can have a little
>>more juice in the event of main alternator failure (to
>>cover pitot heat, for example.) How should Z-13 be
>>modified to wire in the SD-20 instead of the SD-8?
> How about a variation on Z-14. Use S704-1 relays for
> a low current (30A) cross-feed, and as the battery
> relay for a small (6 a.h. or so) battery to stabilize
> the SD-20 when the cross-feed is open. Use the Aux
> Bus as you would the E-bus and put all the main-alt-out
> en route loads on the Aux Bus. You wouldn't close the
> cross-feed during cranking in this case so a single
> pole, single throw cross-feed switch would suffice.
> Bob . . .
Why wouldn't you use the smaller battery to help in cranking? I'm asking because
my battery will have to go in the back for weight and balance considerations
and it might be nice to have a little extra juice. Is this recommendation because
of the lower rated cross-feed/battery relay, or something else?
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
The static charge necessary to create the spark is generated by the flow of
gasoline. No flow... No possible spark.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pazmany Newsletter" <pazmanynewsletter(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
> Bob,
>
> My concern is that as the fueler brings the grounded nozzle close to the
> ungrounded filler neck, a spark might jump between the two before they
make
> contact. And with the fuel tank open, the fuel to air mixture might be at
> the correct ratio to support combustion.
>
> Experimenter magazine had an article on this subject a couple of months
ago,
> and there's been ongoing discussion in the Letters to the Editor column.
> One letter writer recommended going to the Petroleum Equipment Institute's
> website for more information. Here's a link to an article about fires in
> plastic gas cans. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm
>
> I think I'm going to connect the neck to the airframe so that if any spark
> is going to occur, it will happen where the fueler hooks up his ground
line,
> not at the filler neck.
>
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi Electric Bob,
> > >
> > >This might be a bit outside of your area of expertise, but I'd like
your
> > >opinion anyway. And my question IS electrical in nature.
> > >
> > >I'm building a Pazmany PL-2 that has two fiberglass fuel tanks, each
with
> an
> > >aluminum filler neck. The neck is electrically isolated from the
> airframe,
> > >and I'm concerned that when refueling, the ground line that is attached
> from
> > >the fuel truck to the airframe will not be effective in grounding the
> filler
> > >neck. If a static charge had built up on the tank during flight,
> grounding
> > >the airframe would have no effect on the tanks, and a spark might occur
> when
> > >the grounded fuel truck nozzle is touched to the ungrounded filler
neck.
> > >
> > >So, I'm going to connect the filler neck to the airframe. My question
is
> > >should I make it a low resitance connection (just a copper wire), or
> should
> > >I place a high resistance in the line (like the wrist straps that
> electronic
> > >technicians use when working with static sensitive devices)? My
> > >understanding is the high resistance would cause the charge to bleed
off
> > >slowly instead of all at once as with a low resistance connection, but
> I'm
> > >not sure if that's what I want in this case.
> >
> > When a fueler walks up to a Sundowner and puts the nozzle into
> > the tank, the electrical connection between the fuel truck ground
> > and the rim of the filler neck is pretty low resistance. I can't
> > think of any good reason to make that something different for
> > a plastic airplane.
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > |-------------------------------------------------------|
> > | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> > | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> > | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
> > |-------------------------------------------------------|
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
>>>
My concern is that as the fueler brings the grounded nozzle close to the
ungrounded filler neck, a spark might jump between the two before they make
contact. And with the fuel tank open, the fuel to air mixture might be at
the correct ratio to support combustion.
Experimenter magazine had an article on this subject a couple of months
ago,and there's been ongoing discussion in the Letters to the Editor
column.One letter writer recommended going to the Petroleum Equipment
Institute's website for more information. Here's a link to an article about
fires in plastic gas cans. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm
I think I'm going to connect the neck to the airframe so that if any spark
is going to occur, it will happen where the fueler hooks up his ground line,
not at the filler neck.<<<
My experience is mostly with metal aircraft (WW II and
subsequent) and not with composite materials. However, my understanding is
that the static buildup is due mainly to the 'sloshing' of the fuel. The
Petroleum Equipment Institute's article ignores all that and discusses
sliding plastic containers and airflow.
To my knowledge (and training) all the metal aircraft carried
filler necks and caps grounded to the chassis. The fueler came fgirst with a
grounding line which was clipped to the fuselage at a designated position
(often a 'knob' welded to exhaust or undercarriage) remopte from fumes.
With the truck now electrically attached to the airframe, there was no spark
when fueler inserted thye nozzle. Not only that, but there was no static
electricity built up in the tank to begin with.
Now on a composite machine, none of that applies. grounding the
truck to the aircraft has no effect on tanks (metal or composite) which are
isolated from the grounding stub (should there be one). Thus, the fuel can
build up a charge from sloshing (unless, like me, you are a incredibly
smooth pilot), and awaits the arriving nozzle. We have lost one Europa to
such a fire.
Since I believe the charge does not rely on whether it depends
on industrial sloshing or on private sloshing, I intend to run a wire from
Inside the composite tank to the filler neck and attached cap and to a
remote site on the aircraft where the fueler will attach his magic clamp.
Any charge built up by the latest landing (and recovery) will tranfer to the
remote stub. I will then have duplicated the action of all those past
aircraft.
End of diatribe.
Cheers,
ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Static discharges |
<>
Just another anecdote - I distinctly remember reading that on Cessnas we are
supposed to remove the chain from the cap. The explanation was that a
discharge could occur between the chain and the fuel. Now that I read this
thread it does make some sense - the fuel could build up a charge in the
tank and with the chain dangling just above the fuel level a spot for a
discharge could occur. My Lancair has a fuel probe that is grounded that
runs all the way through the tank. I was also going to ground the aluminum
vent tube, fearing that it could be a conductive path for a static discharge
inside the tank. Now it seems that I should also ground the filler neck -
sounds like a good idea and can't do anything bad from the sound of it. The
only way I can think of is to lay a copper foil on the surface of the wing,
as it is already installed and the wing closed. I also like the idea of a
long chain on the cap that is always in the fuel. I hope all of this is an
overkill - that's the way I like it.
Speaking of static discharges, I have lately heard of a lot of difficulties
with that in plastic airplanes. My plan is to positively ground every metal
part in the airframe so nothing electrical could be at a different
potential. This would include things like the rudder pedals, control rods,
main gear, various hinges, etc. Sound like a good idea?
Gary Casey
C177RG, Lancair ES kit
________________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Not entirely true - at least, not for composite aircraft. I recall a
test where someone detected very high static charges on the surface of
the strake of a Velocity, especially after flying through dry, dusty
air... a small area was then wiped with a damp rag, and then re-tested -
the static charge had been virtually eliminated, but only in that area.
Admittedly this is a third-hand report (I haven't tried it myself, yet),
but it follows known physics AFAIK.
-John R.
Cy Galley wrote:
>
> The static charge necessary to create the spark is generated by the flow of
> gasoline. No flow... No possible spark.
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
> > The static charge necessary to create the spark is generated by
> > the flow of gasoline. No flow... No possible spark.
> Not entirely true - at least, not for composite aircraft. I recall a
> test where someone detected very high static charges on the surface of
> the strake of a Velocity, especially after flying through dry, dusty
> air... a small area was then wiped with a damp rag, and then re-tested -
> the static charge had been virtually eliminated, but only in that area.
> Admittedly this is a third-hand report (I haven't tried it myself, yet),
> but it follows known physics AFAIK.
Right. And there's also the possibility that the fuel sloshing in the
delivery tanker has already developed a static charge. Line personel who
don't know any better often clip the ground strap to to the exhaust on
plastic airplanes. Linking the filler neck, the fuel in the tank and the
engine ground make sense to me.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
This test was done by the guys at the CAFE foundation. They
found that the damp wipe on the composite aircraft worked the best
to eliminate the static charge. I think it was written up in Sport
Aviation.
Jim
> <john@allied-computer.com>
>
> Not entirely true - at least, not for composite aircraft. I recall a
> test where someone detected very high static charges on the surface of
> the strake of a Velocity, especially after flying through dry, dusty
> air... a small area was then wiped with a damp rag, and then re-tested
> - the static charge had been virtually eliminated, but only in that
> area. Admittedly this is a third-hand report (I haven't tried it
> myself, yet), but it follows known physics AFAIK.
>
> -John R.
>
>
> Cy Galley wrote:
> >
> >
> > The static charge necessary to create the spark is generated by the
> > flow of gasoline. No flow... No possible spark.
> >
> > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> >
> > Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
> >
> > Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
>
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> List members.
> http://www.matronics.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator fuse sizing |
>
>Bob,
>
>Your book states that an 80 amp fuse should be used for the 60 amp B&C
>alternator.
Fast fuses like the JJS/JJN series need to be 80A on the 60A
and 40A alternators. If you use the ANL series, an ANL60 is
fine for 60A
>What should be used for a 20 amp standby B&C alternator?
ANL30 - Available from B&C at either their website or mine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > When a fueler walks up to a Sundowner and puts the nozzle into
> > the tank, the electrical connection between the fuel truck ground
> > and the rim of the filler neck is pretty low resistance. I can't
> > think of any good reason to make that something different for
> > a plastic airplane.
> >
>*** Hi Bob,
>
> Why do you specifically mention Sundowners? Is it because of the bonded
>wing?
No. It's all metal like the vast majority of SEGA aircraft.
A resistance check from fuel filler to nose gear (where most
fuelers attach their ground leads) yields a very low value.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
At 05:52 AM 9/17/2002 +0930, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob,
>
> >http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
>
> >The bytes are still warm from having been squished through
> >all those tiny fiber optic bundles on their way from Wichita
> >to San Diego. I'd appreciate feedback on any errors of spelling
> >or omission that any of you find.
>
>I'm hesitant to call it a mistake but I don't see the purpose of D117 on
>your schematic -- this is a high intensity LED wired in series with the
>Panel LED and apparently inside the electronics box. Your earlier low
>voltage warning (9021-610.pdf) uses only one LED which seems fine to me.
>
>Best regards,
Your option. In several applications where I've used this
circuit, it was useful to have a "repeater light" right on
the board assembly. It's true that both lights will be
flashing at same time . . . they are in series. I've used
this circuit on large aircraft where I was working in the
tail and the lv warning light was out of sight on the panel.
The repeater light is sometimes handy.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
>
>We Glasair builders have had many discussions on the same subject.
>Some have gone to the trouble of grounding the fuel filler neck
>and most have not. In a Glasair, the grounding wire must be either
>routed through the fuel tank, or on the top of the wing; both options
>not really ideal.
This topic has probably generated more speculative
conversation than the "dreaded down-wind turn" . . .
First, let consider that fueling fires are extremely rare
in both aviation and other vehicular venues. A tank with
any liquid fuel in it is NOT explosive . . . vapors above
the liquid are saturated . . . way too rich to be stoichiometric.
Soooo . . . if an airplane catches fire during a fueling operation
it HAS to involve fuel splashed out onto the surface of
the wing where it has lots of air to burn with.
I watched a lineboy walk up to my airplane and tip the
fuel nozzel down toward the filler cap and got a dribble
of perhaps 1/4 cup of fuel onto the wing. IF he had not
already attached a ground wire to my airplane, THAT was
a prescription for excitement.
I've not met a single aviation professional who believes that
TWA800 blew itself up who can support his belief with physics.
People have tried unsuccessfully multitudes of times to duplicate an
accident based upon the testimony of those who were involved
where the "perp" didn't want sloppy workmanship on his part
to be deduced as root cause of the accident.
There have been hundreds of studies and papers produced
on the topic of fuel-flow-induced static electricity. It's
there, it happens and 99.99999% of the time it doesn't
matter.
They don't call risky behavior "risky" for nothing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
At 09:26 AM 9/13/2002Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> >
> >
> >Love to see it however unable to go there. Says site page not available.
> >
> >Paul
>
> Hmmm . . . not sure what the problem is. I tried the echoed link
> and my browser wouldn't jump to it. Tried re-entering the link
> and sent it to my other e-mail account and it worked. Soooo . . .
> try again:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
That machine refuses a connection sometimes. Trying again and again got it
for me. Is it real busy? Maybe total open copies of the server is hitting
your preset limit.
Paul Franz
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(425)641-1773 fax |
<http://blackdog.bellevue.wa.us/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> First, let consider that fueling fires are extremely rare
> in both aviation and other vehicular venues.
*** I seem to remember reading in Light Plane Maintenance, that
fuel fires had gotten a bit more common. Mostly with the "draining fuel
into a large plastic gas can" scenario. There was some speculation that
fuel formulas might have changed, that the fuel had gotten a bit more
volatile, or maybe higher electrical resistance leading to more static
buildup.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Bob's assessment about the safety of fuel and fuel handling makes good
sense (like always) to me. None the less, I think there are some
construction practices and fueling techniques that can minimize the
risk. Here are my thoughts.
Two materials, with different electron mobilities (affinities), sliding
against each other, can cause a charge to build between them. The way
to minimize the level of charge that can build up between the materials
is to always provide a conducting path (good mobility) between the two.
This keeps the material with the higher conductivity from stealing very
many of the electrons from the less conductive material.
The risk in aircraft fueling occurs when a large voltage difference
exists between two objects while in the presence of a combustible
mixture. If you can absolutely eliminate either of these things,
combustion will not be possible. Eliminating clumsy fuel handling by
the line staff is probably not generally practical. This means that the
best bet is to provide a method for equalizing the voltage of the fuel
supplier and the fuel receiver in a location where there isn't ever a
combustible mixture (away from the fuel nozzle).
On metal airplanes, this is easy. The tanks are generally metal in
both the truck and the airplane. Building a large voltage within
either tank is difficult because the conductive nature of the tank walls
causes a continuous equalization of charge. The standard of clamping a
wire from the truck to the exhaust pipe gets and keeps everything within
a few volts of each other. Can anyone relate a story where a metal
airplane, properly grounded, caught fire because of fuel transfer?
Plastic fuel tanks add a level of complexity to the situation because
they aren't conductive. This means that the fuel and tank can become
electrically charged due to various effects. Suddenly equalizing this
charge can cause a large spark. If the spark happens when a wet fuel
nozzle gets close to the filler neck, this would seem to be the worst
case scenario (which should be designed around).
In order to minimize this risk conductive connections between the bottom
of the tank (some place always wet with fuel) to the filler neck, and
additionally from there to engine ground should be made. This way,
when the fuel truck gets connected to the exhaust pipe, everything is
brought to the same potential in a safe manner.
I propose that a safe way to accomplish this is to attach a chain or
wire from the filler neck to the fuel outlet (pickup tube) in the bottom
of the tank. Another wire should be run from the fuel outlet (outside
the tank) to the main engine ground, or directly to an external lug to
which the line staff will connect their truck ground. If you'd like
to run a chain to the fuel cap to keep from losing it, that's great, but
I don't think it provides much added fueling safety.
There was a discussion long ago in the Canard Pusher about this issue.
There was concern about not wanting to connect a piece of metal in the
tank to elsewhere in the plane. The idea was that if the aircraft were
struck by lightning, that conduction path could end up carrying a large
amperage, heat up, and start a fire. My thought is that in order to
avoid this, you could easily put a small fuse in the lead between the
fuel outlet, and the aircraft ground. The fuse(able link) should be
close to the fuel outlet. Additionally, we should all be staying away
from thunderstorms in the first place.
Keep in mind that we aren't talking about needing to conduct huge
amounts of current because of refueling. Moving dielectrics against
each other is a fairly inefficient way to make electrical power.
Does anyone see anything wrong with this?
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasins(at)email.ceat.okstate.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Fuses have voltage limitations. A fuse good for 12 V is not good for
millions of volts of the lightnings. At these voltages the plasma across the
blown fuse will conduct current as well as a piece of wire.
Jerzy
----- Original Message -----
From: <mprather(at)spro.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
> Bob's assessment about the safety of fuel and fuel handling makes good
> sense (like always) to me. None the less, I think there are some
> construction practices and fueling techniques that can minimize the
> risk. Here are my thoughts.
>
> Two materials, with different electron mobilities (affinities), sliding
> against each other, can cause a charge to build between them. The way
> to minimize the level of charge that can build up between the materials
> is to always provide a conducting path (good mobility) between the two.
> This keeps the material with the higher conductivity from stealing very
> many of the electrons from the less conductive material.
>
> The risk in aircraft fueling occurs when a large voltage difference
> exists between two objects while in the presence of a combustible
> mixture. If you can absolutely eliminate either of these things,
> combustion will not be possible. Eliminating clumsy fuel handling by
> the line staff is probably not generally practical. This means that the
> best bet is to provide a method for equalizing the voltage of the fuel
> supplier and the fuel receiver in a location where there isn't ever a
> combustible mixture (away from the fuel nozzle).
>
> On metal airplanes, this is easy. The tanks are generally metal in
> both the truck and the airplane. Building a large voltage within
> either tank is difficult because the conductive nature of the tank walls
> causes a continuous equalization of charge. The standard of clamping a
> wire from the truck to the exhaust pipe gets and keeps everything within
> a few volts of each other. Can anyone relate a story where a metal
> airplane, properly grounded, caught fire because of fuel transfer?
>
> Plastic fuel tanks add a level of complexity to the situation because
> they aren't conductive. This means that the fuel and tank can become
> electrically charged due to various effects. Suddenly equalizing this
> charge can cause a large spark. If the spark happens when a wet fuel
> nozzle gets close to the filler neck, this would seem to be the worst
> case scenario (which should be designed around).
>
> In order to minimize this risk conductive connections between the bottom
> of the tank (some place always wet with fuel) to the filler neck, and
> additionally from there to engine ground should be made. This way,
> when the fuel truck gets connected to the exhaust pipe, everything is
> brought to the same potential in a safe manner.
>
> I propose that a safe way to accomplish this is to attach a chain or
> wire from the filler neck to the fuel outlet (pickup tube) in the bottom
> of the tank. Another wire should be run from the fuel outlet (outside
> the tank) to the main engine ground, or directly to an external lug to
> which the line staff will connect their truck ground. If you'd like
> to run a chain to the fuel cap to keep from losing it, that's great, but
> I don't think it provides much added fueling safety.
>
> There was a discussion long ago in the Canard Pusher about this issue.
> There was concern about not wanting to connect a piece of metal in the
> tank to elsewhere in the plane. The idea was that if the aircraft were
> struck by lightning, that conduction path could end up carrying a large
> amperage, heat up, and start a fire. My thought is that in order to
> avoid this, you could easily put a small fuse in the lead between the
> fuel outlet, and the aircraft ground. The fuse(able link) should be
> close to the fuel outlet. Additionally, we should all be staying away
> from thunderstorms in the first place.
>
> Keep in mind that we aren't talking about needing to conduct huge
> amounts of current because of refueling. Moving dielectrics against
> each other is a fairly inefficient way to make electrical power.
>
> Does anyone see anything wrong with this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt Prather
> N34RD.
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Good point. Maybe a special purpose fuseable link would be better,
and just as easy. You could burn up 6 to 12 inches of small guage
wire housed in fiberglass insulation. That might still not do it -
once a conduction path is established, it keeps on going.
I still think lightning strikes causing a fuel fire should be a small
concern compared the day to day risk associated with refueling. If
you operate your plastic airplane where lightning strikes are likely,
you have a list of bigger issues to be concerned with, like deice
capability, and structural failure. For the rest of the plastic
airplane operators, I think I have suggested a valid approach.
Matt-
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerzy Krasinski <krasins(at)email.ceat.okstate.edu>
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
> Fuses have voltage limitations. A fuse good for 12 V is not good for
> millions of volts of the lightnings. At these voltages the plasma
> across the
> blown fuse will conduct current as well as a piece of wire.
>
> Jerzy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mprather(at)spro.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
>
> > avoid this, you could easily put a small fuse in the lead between
> the> fuel outlet, and the aircraft ground. The fuse(able link)
> should be
> > close to the fuel outlet. Additionally, we should all be staying
> away> from thunderstorms in the first place.
> >
> > Keep in mind that we aren't talking about needing to conduct huge
> > amounts of current because of refueling. Moving dielectrics against
> > each other is a fairly inefficient way to make electrical power.
> >
> > Does anyone see anything wrong with this?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Matt Prather
> > N34RD.
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/browselis
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rino <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Any arguments AGAINST the following idea. I would like to try that.
A clip shaped to attach to the filler neck without obstructing the
opening for the fuel nozzle.
A short small chain (gold necklace maybe)attached to the clip drops
inside the fuel tank (to the bottom).
A length of about 5 feet long flexible wire attached to the same clip
with another clip at the other end.
When the fueler gets 5 feet from your fuel tank, hand him the wire which
he clips to his fuel nozzle.
If there is a spark there -- no problem.
When finished fueling and gets to the end of the wire, he unclip it.
Then the wire is uncliped from the fuel tank filler neck and stored for
the next fuelling.
Rino
Pazmany Newsletter wrote:
>
>
> Bob,
>
> My concern is that as the fueler brings the grounded nozzle close to the
> ungrounded filler neck, a spark might jump between the two before they make
> contact. And with the fuel tank open, the fuel to air mixture might be at
> the correct ratio to support combustion.
>
> Experimenter magazine had an article on this subject a couple of months ago,
> and there's been ongoing discussion in the Letters to the Editor column.
> One letter writer recommended going to the Petroleum Equipment Institute's
> website for more information. Here's a link to an article about fires in
> plastic gas cans. http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm
>
> I think I'm going to connect the neck to the airframe so that if any spark
> is going to occur, it will happen where the fueler hooks up his ground line,
> not at the filler neck.
>
> Ken
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
> Any arguments AGAINST the following idea. I would like to try that.
> A clip shaped to attach to the filler neck without obstructing the
> opening for the fuel nozzle.
> A short small chain (gold necklace maybe)attached to the clip drops
> inside the fuel tank (to the bottom).
> A length of about 5 feet long flexible wire attached to the same clip
> with another clip at the other end.
> When the fueler gets 5 feet from your fuel tank, hand him the wire which
> he clips to his fuel nozzle.
> If there is a spark there -- no problem.
> When finished fueling and gets to the end of the wire, he unclip it.
> Then the wire is uncliped from the fuel tank filler neck and stored for
> the next fuelling.
The only argument I can think of is the possibility of unsupervised fueling.
You have to hit the head and the line-boy decides to get on with it - you
lend you're plane to someone....
I think Matt said it best - ground the engine to the fuel and filler. I
implemented my grounding system this afternoon. A copper triangle hangs in
the fuel and is joined to the filler and cap by a short length of copper
wire. Another length of copper wire joins the triangle to the airplane
ground and thence to the engine ground. I'm hoping that this, combined with
a damp rag and an inbread fear of thunderstorms, should keep me safe.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | deltab(at)erols.com |
Oh, they're out there. Especially from the hotmail gang. I remind
matt of this once in a while. I try to not be a nuisance.
Bernie C.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> http://216.55.140.222/articles.html
>
> Not sure what Matt's fix to the system is supposed to do for
> us. I've not noticed any "random" or nuisance html tags
> in AeroElectric-List traffic. Just thought I'd run this
> test to see if the "fix" strips out ALL tags
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | There is a great difference between knowing and |
> | understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
> | not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
>
>
>At 09:26 AM 9/13/2002Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> > >
> > >
> > >Love to see it however unable to go there. Says site page not available.
> > >
> > >Paul
> >
> > Hmmm . . . not sure what the problem is. I tried the echoed link
> > and my browser wouldn't jump to it. Tried re-entering the link
> > and sent it to my other e-mail account and it worked. Soooo . . .
> > try again:
> >
> > http://216.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>That machine refuses a connection sometimes. Trying again and again got it
>for me. Is it real busy? Maybe total open copies of the server is hitting
>your preset limit.
I don't think I have a limit. I'm 50% owner in the machine and only
one other business activity is hosted on it. I can't imagine that
there are any software, firmware or practical hardware limits on
traffic. We get billed for total transfers on a monthly basis but
no limits. Got any ideas of things to explore?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > First, let consider that fueling fires are extremely rare
> > in both aviation and other vehicular venues.
>
>*** I seem to remember reading in Light Plane Maintenance, that
>fuel fires had gotten a bit more common. Mostly with the "draining fuel
>into a large plastic gas can" scenario. There was some speculation that
>fuel formulas might have changed, that the fuel had gotten a bit more
>volatile, or maybe higher electrical resistance leading to more static
>buildup.
That's an invitation to disaster . . . allowing a fuel stream
to free fall through lots of air. Move fuels through relatively
closed systems (like put a hose on the fuel drain fitting and have
it extend into the container, perhaps all the way to the bottom
before opening the valve) would suppress the hazards.
Trying to blame the hazards of this practice on "changed fuel
formulas" is like Hartzell's attempt to blame broken props on
the use of electronic ignitions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Over/Under Voltage |
>Bob,
>I'm building a under/over voltage detector using a pair of comparators
>and some LED's. Can you tell me what are considered the Official under
>and over voltage levels In an aircraft system?
Why an overvoltage indication? Do you not plan to have an
ov relay or crowbar ov module? If so, an ov condition is
brought under control in tens of milliseconds . . . an
OV WARN light should never illuminate.
We set ov protection at 16.0 to 16.5 volts. LV warning
is 13.0 volts.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding OR FIRE |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fuel tank grounding
>
> >
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > >
> > > First, let consider that fueling fires are extremely rare
> > > in both aviation and other vehicular venues.
> >
> >*** I seem to remember reading in Light Plane Maintenance, that
> >fuel fires had gotten a bit more common. Mostly with the "draining fuel
> >into a large plastic gas can" scenario. There was some speculation that
> >fuel formulas might have changed, that the fuel had gotten a bit more
> >volatile, or maybe higher electrical resistance leading to more static
> >buildup.
>
> That's an invitation to disaster . . . allowing a fuel stream
> to free fall through lots of air. Move fuels through relatively
> closed systems (like put a hose on the fuel drain fitting and have
> it extend into the container, perhaps all the way to the bottom
> before opening the valve) would suppress the hazards.
>
> Trying to blame the hazards of this practice on "changed fuel
> formulas" is like Hartzell's attempt to blame broken props on
> the use of electronic ignitions.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Having had a fuel fire result from pouring gasoline from an "approved"
plastic container into my wing tank, I can tell you - you can not be too
careful about grounding the system. The thing that apparently ignited the
fuel was static electricity generated when I momentarily broke contact
between the plastic container and the plastic fuel funnel. This resulted in
gasoline falling freely through the air for a fraction of a second - long
enough! The "Whoommpp" that signaled ignition was a dreadful sound.
Fortunately, I was able to get the fire out without any damage to myself or
the machine. However, I consider myself very lucky on that point - I could
have easily been less fortunate. I no longer use plastic containers
(approved or otherwise). However, even if I had been using metal
containers -by breaking contact (even momentarily) it would probably have
been sufficient to generate enough electricity for a spark.
Ed Anderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Cy Galley wrote:
>
>
> The static charge necessary to create the spark is generated by the flow of
> gasoline. No flow... No possible spark.
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
NOT NECESSARILY TRUE ! Air flow over the airframe can also build up quite high
static charges under
the right conditions. Hence static discharge wicks on some planes. The charges
built up in flight
can remain on the airframe after landing as the tyres are quite a good insulator
and with
non-conductive airframes this residual charge can be an even greater problem. Fuel
flow is only one
of many ways to generate a static charge. Grounding everything and grounding all
of this to the fuel
truck BEFORE removing the fuel cap is the safer way to go. Sloshing fuel under
the right conditions
has been known to generate static as well. See the article posted earlier by someone
else re
portable fuel containers for some specific facts. (scary stuff) here is the link
again
http://www.pei.org/FRD/gascan.htm
--
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincehallam(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
Icant contact the PEI referd to previouslly as a link but have experince of
static build up INSIDE an earthed metal tank gas system sufficient to cause
three inch spark. anybody interested call me UK l01803316191 [0044803 31 61
91 ??] or Email me direct for a painfully slow answer
vincenthallam(at)aol.co.uk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Billie Lamb" <N254BL(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Figure Z-11A |
Bob I tried it at 0745 from here in Florida and got in instantly.
Bill Lamb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-11A
>
> >
> >
> >At 09:26 AM 9/13/2002Robert L. Nuckolls, III sez:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Love to see it however unable to go there. Says site page not
available.
> > > >
> > > >Paul
> > >
> > > Hmmm . . . not sure what the problem is. I tried the echoed link
> > > and my browser wouldn't jump to it. Tried re-entering the link
> > > and sent it to my other e-mail account and it worked. Soooo . . .
> > > try again:
> > >
> > > http://216.55.140.222/temp/Figure_Z-11A.pdf
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> >That machine refuses a connection sometimes. Trying again and again got
it
> >for me. Is it real busy? Maybe total open copies of the server is hitting
> >your preset limit.
>
> I don't think I have a limit. I'm 50% owner in the machine and only
> one other business activity is hosted on it. I can't imagine that
> there are any software, firmware or practical hardware limits on
> traffic. We get billed for total transfers on a monthly basis but
> no limits. Got any ideas of things to explore?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
> Another length of copper wire joins the triangle to the airplane
>ground and thence to the engine ground. I'm hoping that this, combined with
>a damp rag and an inbread fear of thunderstorms, should keep me safe.
-----------------------------------------------
safe
Etymology: Middle English sauf, from Old French, from
Latin salvus safe, healthy; akin to Latin solidus
solid, Greek holos whole, safe, Sanskrit sarva entire
Date: 14th century
1 : free from harm or risk
2 : secure from threat of danger, harm, or loss
3 : affording safety or security from danger, risk, or difficulty
----------------------------------------------
I've worked around too many lawyers . . . "safe" is
a word I'd like to erase from the lexicon of airplanespeak.
Airplanes are dangerous as hell . . .they have whirrly
things up front that will mince you in a heartbeat. A
few seconds of inattention to maintaining a comfortable
position INSIDE the envelope of predictable, useful
and comfortable operation and you, your machine and
anyone in close proximity may wish they'd never gotten
out of bed that day.
One of the first things a lawyer wants to do is get
you to defend the safety of your product. I prefer
to put the examination on a different footing, "No sir,
in the hands of inattentive, unqualified or evil
persons, this gizmo can be the source of great harm.
I submit therefore that it is NOT safe."
From that point on, if the conversation is to continue,
focus needs to shift to operators of the gizmo. I recall
a conversation I had with a lady standing in line with
me at a convenience store. There was a security guard
for some organization a few folks ahead of us in the
line. He had a heavy-duty hog-leg holstered on his
hip. She expressed discomfort about the weapon.
This prompted some thoughts about conditions that
surround a potential hazard. For example, holstered
as it was, the gun represented no threat I could
perceive. If he had pulled the gun out to inspect
it, the threat level would elevate but if
it appeared that the action was by responsible
folks, there is still little cause for concern.
If the gun were out and the holder was yelling
at some perp, "Stop or I'll drop you!", the
threat level is obviously severe. It's the same
gun in all cases. Safe? Only in the context of
its surroundings.
Taking the cap off a container of fuel is akin to
pulling a gun from its holster - the threat level
moves up a notch. Depending on handling technique
and equipment used during the transfer the threat
elevates IRRESPECTIVE of any notions we may harbor
about being "safe".
We can victimize ourselves by using this word too
loosely. "Safe" can elicit a sense of
security that encourages inattentive or ill-
informed behavior from which the unhappy
statistics are counted. These machines we enjoy
so much are no different than automobiles, chain
saws or firearms . . . none are inherently
"secure from threat of danger, harm, or loss".
However, in the hands of informed, responsible
users they are tools of great utility and satisfaction.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternator/dual battery question. |
>
> >>I am planning on using the SD-20 so I can have a little
> >>more juice in the event of main alternator failure (to
> >>cover pitot heat, for example.) How should Z-13 be
> >>modified to wire in the SD-20 instead of the SD-8?
>
> > How about a variation on Z-14. Use S704-1 relays for
> > a low current (30A) cross-feed, and as the battery
> > relay for a small (6 a.h. or so) battery to stabilize
> > the SD-20 when the cross-feed is open. Use the Aux
> > Bus as you would the E-bus and put all the main-alt-out
> > en route loads on the Aux Bus. You wouldn't close the
> > cross-feed during cranking in this case so a single
> > pole, single throw cross-feed switch would suffice.
>
> > Bob . . .
>
>Why wouldn't you use the smaller battery to help in cranking? I'm asking
>because my battery will have to go in the back for weight and balance
>considerations and it might be nice to have a little extra juice. Is this
>recommendation because of the lower rated cross-feed/battery relay, or
>something else?
"Cranking" implies a need for hundreds of amps. If your
aux battery is some little guy picked for the ability to
excite and stabilize the aux alternator, then beating
it up with starter loads will only add marginally to
cranking performance and detract greatly from the battery's
service life.
The only time I would parallel batteries for cranking
is if EITHER battery could be reasonably expected to
crank an engine all by itself. This is why I favor
the dual-17's for two battery systems. Paralleling
DOUBLES available cranking capacity and HALVES the
internal impedance of the cranking power source. These
are substantial improvements over what "extra juice"
small batteries can be expected to deliver and will
not abuse either battery.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
> >ground and thence to the engine ground. I'm hoping that this,
> >combined with a damp rag and an inbread fear of thunderstorms,
> >should keep me safe.
>
> We can victimize ourselves by using this word too
> loosely. "Safe" can elicit a sense of
> security that encourages inattentive or ill-
> informed behavior from which the unhappy
> statistics are counted.
Ok, Ok. Safe is a bad word. How about "less likely to blow myself up"?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re Fuel tank grounding |
>
>Good point. Maybe a special purpose fuseable link would be better,
>and just as easy. You could burn up 6 to 12 inches of small guage
>wire housed in fiberglass insulation. That might still not do it -
>once a conduction path is established, it keeps on going.
Don't see what this would buy you. Energy levels at which
fuel fires are triggered happen in hundreds of microseconds
at relatively low current levels.
>I still think lightning strikes causing a fuel fire should be a small
>concern compared the day to day risk associated with refueling. If
>you operate your plastic airplane where lightning strikes are likely,
>you have a list of bigger issues to be concerned with, like deice
>capability, and structural failure. For the rest of the plastic
>airplane operators, I think I have suggested a valid approach.
Take part in a strike in a plastic airplane and fuel
fires are the least of your concerns. Your tanks are
closed, saturated vapor space containers. Can't even
burn much less explode. Lightning strikes to
plastic airplanes will be conducted through the lowest
resistance pathways in the system . . . given that your
bod is 70% saltwater . . . well, you see where this
is going.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re Fuel tank grounding |
In a message dated 9/18/02 9:40:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> Take part in a strike in a plastic airplane and fuel
> fires are the least of your concerns. Your tanks are
> closed, saturated vapor space containers. Can't even
> burn much less explode. Lightning strikes to
> plastic airplanes will be conducted through the lowest
> resistance pathways in the system . . . given that your
> bod is 70% saltwater . . . well, you see where this
> is going.
>
Good Morning Bob and All,
I don't know if this is pertinent or even appropriate for this list, but!
Once upon a time in the far distant past, I believe I recall an accident
involving a Boeing 707 operated by Pan American Airways wherein the left wing
was blown off the airplane after a suspected static discharge event.
My recollection has it that the investigation concluded that a "Vent Box"
which was part of the fuel venting system had collected a sufficient amount
of air and fuel so as to make a mixture that was combustible when the spark
occurred. I also believe the design of that "Vent Box" was changed after
that incident. Does anyone here remember it differently?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DO-160 Circuit Questions |
>
> > Assuming you're designing for a 14v airplane, the short term
> > surge requirement is 40v for, I believe, 100 uSeconds. The
> > HV versions of the LM317 will handle this. Or, depending on your
> > current draw, a series resistance in the supply line to the 7805
> > followed by a shunt zener or transorb works better yet. This
> > will cover your 300V spike requirement too.
> >
> >
>
>Using the 7805, do I use a 20v zener go on the 12v side
yes.
>or should it be a 6
>volt zener on the 5 volt side of the 7805? I would think that it goes on
>the 12v side to protect the 7805.
you got it
> Is the purpose of the series resister to
>help spread the heat between the resister and the 7805? Would a 4 ohm 5
>watt resister do the trick, assuming that I am using 1 amp in my circuit?
the resistor is used to increase the source impedance of any
potential surge that drives the protection zener (or transorb)
into conduction. See
http://www.mobilesemi.com/us/products/tvs.asp
The resistor needs to be as large as possible without killing
your headroom requirements in the 7805 at minimum bus voltage
and maximum load.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Fuel tank grounding |
Hello Group,
Here's a question on this subject that maybe I can get a few opinions on.
I'm also building a Glasair and wondered about grounding for the refueling
operation.
My gascolator/fuel filter quickdrain is located in a position that it could
be used to attach the fuel station ground cable to. From this point the
fuel lines back to the tank(s) are all hard fuel line. It seems to me that
if I attach the ground cable to this point that it should take care of any
static charge that may have built up in the fuel. Have I gone wrong
anywhere here?
Bill Hibbing
Glasair SIIS-FT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Re Fuel tank grounding |
Does the Glasair plastic tanks? If yes, I think you still might
consider providing a ground path to the filler neck from the hard
fuel lines you described - either internal or external to the
tank. Your solution is probably not bad, but I can envision being
able to have a fairly large potential difference between the top
and bottom of the tank. If you are going to make the effort to
do any of this, you might as well dot the last 'i.' Especially
since its easy and light weight. Also, I would keep in mind that the
clamp the fuelers use for grounding is a pretty big, grippy thing.
I could imagine it chewing into aluminum pretty quickly. Is your
gascolator up to this? I think this is the reason for clamping onto
exhaust stacks. Here's another thought... I'd rather keep the
first/only static discharge event away from anything that could leak
fuel.
Matt-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:43 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re Fuel tank grounding
>
>
> Hello Group,
>
> Here's a question on this subject that maybe I can get a few
> opinions on.
> I'm also building a Glasair and wondered about grounding for the
> refuelingoperation.
>
> My gascolator/fuel filter quickdrain is located in a position that
> it could
> be used to attach the fuel station ground cable to. From this
> point the
> fuel lines back to the tank(s) are all hard fuel line. It seems to
> me that
> if I attach the ground cable to this point that it should take care
> of any
> static charge that may have built up in the fuel. Have I gone wrong
> anywhere here?
>
> Bill Hibbing
> Glasair SIIS-FT
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator/Dual Battery Question |
>"Cranking" implies a need for hundreds of amps. If your
>aux battery is some little guy picked for the ability
>to excite and stabilize the aux alternator, then beating >it up with starter
loads will only add marginally to
>cranking performance and detract greatly from the battery's
>service life.
>
>The only time I would parallel batteries for cranking
>is if EITHER battery could be reasonably expected to
>crank an engine all by itself. This is why I favor
>the dual-17's for two battery systems. Paralleling
>DOUBLES available cranking capacity and HALVES the
>internal impedance of the cranking power source. These
>are substantial improvements over what "extra juice"
>small batteries can be expected to deliver and will
>not abuse either battery.
>
> Bob . . .
Thanks...sure do appreciate your help on this stuff. Two additional questions
about starting. I notice that you favor wiring the mags so that only one is hot
during cranking. I understand the safety rationale for requiring switches
to be set correctly before cranking and for disabling the starter when both both
mags are hot in cruise. But a rookie like myself wonders: 1) Is there is any
significant degradation in starting performance when only one mag is hot? For
example, any reason to choose a larger batter than you otherwise might? 2)
Suppose you lose both the mag that allows cranking and the engine while in flight.
Any reason to worry about this? I suppose the latter is a pretty remote
possibility.
Thanks again.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
>
> > >ground and thence to the engine ground. I'm hoping that this,
> > >combined with a damp rag and an inbread fear of thunderstorms,
> > >should keep me safe.
> >
> > We can victimize ourselves by using this word too
> > loosely. "Safe" can elicit a sense of
> > security that encourages inattentive or ill-
> > informed behavior from which the unhappy
> > statistics are counted.
>Ok, Ok. Safe is a bad word. How about "less likely to blow myself up"?
Sorry if I came off as a bit wild-eyed on this. I've worked
to many cases where I've read words like, "Well, Mr. Cessna,
you've been telling me and this court how safe your airplanes
are for the past hour. If your airplanes are so 'safe', how
come that widow and four children over there were denied
their loved one because he was using YOUR machine?"
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Management |
Module
>
> > http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
> >
> > The bytes are still warm from having been squished through
> > all those tiny fiber optic bundles on their way from Wichita
> > to San Diego. I'd appreciate feedback on any errors of spelling
> > or omission that any of you find.
> >
>Bob,
>This looks like something I definately need, but I don't see any
>instructions on building the low voltage module itself. The above reference
>tells me all about connecting wires to LED's. I saw the schematic and parts
>list for the LV module, but "electronically challenged" people like me need
>more help than that - like maybe a picture of the finished board and
>step-by-step assembly / testing notes similar to those Jim Weir gives with
>his intercom system (which I managed to struggle through). The IDEAL would
>be a little kit with all the required parts and instructions in a plastic
>bag - I'd be happy to PAY for such a kit.
Working on it. The board is done. Several have been built
and are in service in various places around RAC.
>Finally you mention the "aux battery management" feature, but you dont say
>what it does.
If the bus is above 13.0 volts, and the switch is in AUTO position,
it closes the aux battery contactor. If below 13.0 volts, it opens the
aux battery contactor (and flashes a low volts warning light).
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Fuel tank grounding |
>
>In a message dated 9/18/02 9:40:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
>
> > Take part in a strike in a plastic airplane and fuel
> > fires are the least of your concerns. Your tanks are
> > closed, saturated vapor space containers. Can't even
> > burn much less explode. Lightning strikes to
> > plastic airplanes will be conducted through the lowest
> > resistance pathways in the system . . . given that your
> > bod is 70% saltwater . . . well, you see where this
> > is going.
> >
>
>Good Morning Bob and All,
>
>I don't know if this is pertinent or even appropriate for this list, but!
>
>Once upon a time in the far distant past, I believe I recall an accident
>involving a Boeing 707 operated by Pan American Airways wherein the left wing
>was blown off the airplane after a suspected static discharge event.
>
>My recollection has it that the investigation concluded that a "Vent Box"
>which was part of the fuel venting system had collected a sufficient amount
>of air and fuel so as to make a mixture that was combustible when the spark
>occurred. I also believe the design of that "Vent Box" was changed after
>that incident. Does anyone here remember it differently?
Did a search of the NTSB data and a google search on the net using
"vent box" "fuel" and "aircraft" and couldn't turn anything up.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| There is a great difference between knowing and |
| understanding: you can know a lot about something and |
| not really understand it. -C.F. Kettering- |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank grounding |
> Sorry if I came off as a bit wild-eyed on this.
Not at all. I really enjoyed enjoyed the rant.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather(at)spro.net |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator/Dual Battery |
Question
The interlock on the ignition switch keeps you from cranking
with a non-impulse coupled magneto turned on. I don't believe
its primary intent is to eliminate inadvertant cranking (though
this is a useful side effect) by the casual bystander. As has
already been discussed, if both of your ignition sources are capable
of 0degBTDC timing (either through variable timing advance - electronic
ignition, or an impulse coupled mag) there is no reason not to use both
while cranking.
Aircraft with extremely high top speed to horsepower ratios (Varieze,
small Lancairs) may have propellor pitches so extreme that at best glide
speed the windmilling RPM is quite low. I still can't imagine that
kickback would be an issue. The use of the non-impulse coupled mag
should still be safe.
I have been told that for pilots that normally fly power-off approaches,
if their engine quits while on final, they will likely not know it until
they are on their rollout.
A direct answer to your first question is that most aircraft will start
just fine on one mag. This is born out because lots of aircraft have
only one impulse coupling or shower-of-sparks setup. A standard battery
works.
Matt Prather
N34RD
----- Original Message -----
From: <danobrien(at)cox.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:17 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual Alternator/Dual Battery Question
>
> >"Cranking" implies a need for hundreds of amps. If your
> >aux battery is some little guy picked for the ability
> >to excite and stabilize the aux alternator, then beating >it up
> with starter loads will only add marginally to
> >cranking performance and detract greatly from the battery's
> >service life.
> >
> >The only time I would parallel batteries for cranking
> >is if EITHER battery could be reasonably expected to
> >crank an engine all by itself. This is why I favor
> >the dual-17's for two battery systems. Paralleling
> >DOUBLES available cranking capacity and HALVES the
> >internal impedance of the cranking power source. These
> >are substantial improvements over what "extra juice"
> >small batteries can be expected to deliver and will
> >not abuse either battery.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
> Thanks...sure do appreciate your help on this stuff. Two
> additional questions about starting. I notice that you favor
> wiring the mags so that only one is hot during cranking. I
> understand the safety rationale for requiring switches to be set
> correctly before cranking and for disabling the starter when both
> both mags are hot in cruise. But a rookie like myself wonders: 1)
> Is there is any significant degradation in starting performance
> when only one mag is hot? For example, any reason to choose a
> larger batter than you otherwise might? 2) Suppose you lose both
> the mag that allows cranking and the engine while in flight. Any
> reason to worry about this? I suppose the latter is a pretty
> remote possibility.
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> _-
>
- The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
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> _-
>
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> _-
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | RE Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Management |
Module
> IDEAL would
> >be a little kit with all the required parts and instructions in a plastic
> >bag - I'd be happy to PAY for such a kit.
>
> Working on it. The board is done. Several have been built
> and are in service in various places around RAC.
>
Great. Can I be the first customer? When?
> >Finally you mention the "aux battery management" feature, but
> you dont say
> >what it does.
>
> If the bus is above 13.0 volts, and the switch is in AUTO position,
> it closes the aux battery contactor. If below 13.0 volts, it opens the
> aux battery contactor (and flashes a low volts warning light).
Cool!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator/Dual Battery Question |
>
> >"Cranking" implies a need for hundreds of amps. If your
> >aux battery is some little guy picked for the ability
> >to excite and stabilize the aux alternator, then beating >it up with
> starter loads will only add marginally to
> >cranking performance and detract greatly from the battery's
> >service life.
> >
> >The only time I would parallel batteries for cranking
> >is if EITHER battery could be reasonably expected to
> >crank an engine all by itself. This is why I favor
> >the dual-17's for two battery systems. Paralleling
> >DOUBLES available cranking capacity and HALVES the
> >internal impedance of the cranking power source. These
> >are substantial improvements over what "extra juice"
> >small batteries can be expected to deliver and will
> >not abuse either battery.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>Thanks...sure do appreciate your help on this stuff. Two additional
>questions about starting. I notice that you favor wiring the mags so that
>only one is hot during cranking. I understand the safety rationale for
>requiring switches to be set correctly before cranking and for disabling
>the starter when both both mags are hot in cruise. But a rookie like
>myself wonders: 1) Is there is any significant degradation in starting
>performance when only one mag is hot?
You betcha . . . most engines come with only one impulse coupled mag.
Unless both mags are impulse coupled, you need to add a jumper between
the right mag's p-lead terminal and a nearby switched ground terminal
on the key-type magneto switch. This has the effect of grounding out
the right mag while cranking. It also has the effect of letting the
right mag become "hot" with the engine still moving after an aborted
cranking attempt - been known to break starter castings.
> For example, any reason to choose a larger batter than you otherwise might?
Don't know why
> 2) Suppose you lose both the mag that allows cranking and the engine
> while in flight. Any reason to worry about this?
Never saw a prop stop in flight. I'm told that canard pushers
with wood props can get it to stop if fuel is shut off. Every
airplane I've tried it on keeps on windmilling.
#1 cause of engine stoppage is loss of fuel. If you are so
close to the ground that here is not time/altitude to burn
with any sort of troubleshooting tasks, you're better off
concentrating on the unplanned arrival with the earth.
The scenario you paint is a multiple failure (loss of fuel,
loss of critical mag, loss of windmilling) all happening
on one tank of fuel. Too remote to consider.
> I suppose the latter is a pretty remote possibility.
I think so . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Managemen... |
In a message dated 9/18/2002 11:35:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> If the bus is above 13.0 volts, and the switch is in AUTO position,
> it closes the aux battery contactor. If below 13.0 volts, it opens the
> aux battery contactor (and flashes a low volts warning light).
Bob, been trying to figure out when I would want to use this feature. It
looks to me that it would provide automatic shutdown of the main buss. While
this may seem like a desireable feature, I could also see where an
uncontrolled shutdown of main buss features would certainly startle a pilot
if causing no other undesirable consequences. Seems to me that a pilot
controlled shutdown of main buss functions would be less exciting.
Also, in my planned configuration (diode fed e-buss from main buss, switched
alternate path from battery buss), I would need to make sure the e-buss was
always hot rather than switched to assure that such an automatic shutdown
would not also interrupt essential e-buss operations.
Is my take on this correct?
What would be the best way to use this feature, and can the auto-shutdown
startle factor be reduced?
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light and Aux Battery Managemen... |
>
>In a message dated 9/18/2002 11:35:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> > If the bus is above 13.0 volts, and the switch is in AUTO position,
> > it closes the aux battery contactor. If below 13.0 volts, it opens the
> > aux battery contactor (and flashes a low volts warning light).
>
>Bob, been trying to figure out when I would want to use this feature. It
>looks to me that it would provide automatic shutdown of the main buss. While
>this may seem like a desireable feature, I could also see where an
>uncontrolled shutdown of main buss features would certainly startle a pilot
>if causing no other undesirable consequences. Seems to me that a pilot
>controlled shutdown of main buss functions would be less exciting.
>Also, in my planned configuration (diode fed e-buss from main buss, switched
>alternate path from battery buss), I would need to make sure the e-buss was
>always hot rather than switched to assure that such an automatic shutdown
>would not also interrupt essential e-buss operations.
>
>Is my take on this correct?
No. The AUX battery management module is for the management of
the AUX battery only while at the same time, notifying you of
the failure of the main alternator by flashing the low volts
warning light. Assuming you have two batteries because
your engine is electrically dependent, this feature has the
task of immediately separating two halves of engine loads onto
separate batteries.
>What would be the best way to use this feature, and can the auto-shutdown
>startle factor be reduced?
>
>Doug Windhorn
At some convenient time after the low volts light begins
to flash, you would close the e-bus alternate feed switch and
move the main DC power master from BAT+ALT to OFF. This last
action would shut down the main distribution bus. You might also
choose to shut off half of engine loads on the main battery
bus . . . they can always be turned on as needed should you
experience the insult of double failure for any given flight.
When the airport is in sight and comfortable arrival is assured,
you can bring the main DC power master back to BAT position to
use the rest of the main battery as needed for approach to
landing loads . . . by this time it doesn't matter if the main
battery happens to be too far gone to help.
If push comes to shove, both main DC master and aux battery
masters can be placed in BAT and ON positions to close both
contactors and use the sum total of all energy left in order
to power anything in the airplane just as you would for normal
flight ops except that the alternator is still dead and you're
now powering up two contactors.
Should this action ever become necessary, it probably means that
the batteries were either improperly maintained or undersized
for the task.
September 09, 2002 - September 18, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bd