AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bg
October 17, 2002 - October 24, 2002
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > I am looking for a good quality mutli-meter, without paying Fluke
prices.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
>
>
> We've been offering this instrument or close cousins
> to it for several years with good history . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#dmm-2
>
> I've had occasion to use one of these from Radio Shack
> and I think it's a good value . . . you can also probably
> find one locally.
>
>
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CT
LG%5F008%5F002%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D811
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ed's Lancair-System Planing |
Bob:
I plan on using two 17 amp batteries as recommended. What
company do you recommend for these batteries? I would like to contact them
to acquire the actual dimensions in order to build the platform/trays in the
back of my Lancair ES.
Thanks,
Ed Silvanic
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Seawind - Rudimenary system planning |
Hi Bob,
Here is the new revised, revised, revised list:
Main battery bus:
Main battery contactor 1A
Hydraulic Pressure pump (Connected through an ANL current limiter)
Fuel boast pump
Transfer pump (left wing to right wing)
Transfer pump (Right wing to left wing)
Bilge pump
Hobbs meter 0.1A
Over head courtesy lights
All fuel pumps have independent fuses
Aux Battery Bus:
Clock timer 0.05A
Stall warning 0.2A (intermittent)
Goose neck light 0.1A
Transfer pump left wing (aux to main tank)
Transfer pump right wing (aux to main tank)
Primary fuel pump
All pumps have independent fuses
Main Power Distribution Bus:
Main battery contactor 1A
Taxi lights
Strobe lights
Position lights 6A
Panel lights
Auto pilot
Flaps 5A (Intermittent?)
Attitude indicator
Pitot heat 8A
Aux Power Distribution Bus:
HSI
Roll trim Mac servo 0.2A (intermittent)
Yaw trim Mac servo 0.2A (intermittent)
Pitch trim Mac servo 0.2A (intermittent)
Turn and slip indicator 0.3A
GPS (full IFR UPS stack)
Nav Com (receive/intermittant transmit)
Transponder
Audio panel 0.1A
Quad fuel gauge
Cooling fan for radios
VM 1000
As for the fuel pumps, the transfer pumps are Fawcet pumps and the primary
and high altitude pumps are Mallory.
Emergency gear extension is via hand pump
As for the altimeter, rate of climb and airspeed indicator, I do not know the
brands or the part numbers for these yet. I will try to sort this out soon.
Thanks,
Tom Saccio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: John's Lancair - System planning |
Hi Bob -
I'm flattered and would be pleased to have you put them on your website.
As you know, this is always an ongoing work-in-progress and I will also
add a MS WORD doc as an amplification of where the project is and what
is planned or being massaged.
Please let me know where to send the files.
The wirebook is in AutoCAD and if needed, I could also add a .DXF file
if it would help.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
>
> Could you be talked into publishing them? I'd be pleased to post
> them on my server and link them for general access by anyone interested.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Dual Alt/ Dual Bat Bus List |
Bob,
Here is another "Bus" list to review. Any suggestions?
Main Bus
1. Main LR-3 OV Sense
2. Main Alt FLD
3. Windshield Defog Fan
4. Electronics cooling Fan
5. AOA Control Box
6. UPSAT - SL 30 - COMM
7. UPSAT - SL 30 - NAV
8. Electric Attitude Indicator
9. Turn & Bank Coordinator
10. Low Oil Pressure / Master on
11. Strobes
12. Starter
13. Electric Trim Indicator
14. Pitot Heat
15. Autopilot Control Unit (CB that can be pulled)
16. Position Lights
17. Landing Light
18. Taxi Light
Auxiliary Bus
1. Aux LR-3 OV Sense
2. Aux Alt FLD
3. EFIS
4. EFIS Display
5. GMA 340 Audio Panel
6. GNS 430 comm
7. GNS 430 - Nav
8. GTX 330 Transponder
9. Roll Trim Servo & MkIII Gov.
10. Pitch Trim Servo & MkIII Gov.
11. Annunciator Panel
12. Fuel Boost Pump
13. Fuel Level Sensors
Main Battery Bus
1. Primary Electronic Ignition
2. GNS 430 memory
3. SL30 memory
4. Gooseneck Light Pilot
Auxiliary Battery Bus
1. Hobbs Meter
2. Gooseneck Light CoPilot
3. Accessory Outlets
4. Auxiliary Power outlets
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: John's Lancair - System planning |
>
>
>Hi Bob -
>
>I'm flattered and would be pleased to have you put them on your website.
>As you know, this is always an ongoing work-in-progress and I will also
>add a MS WORD doc as an amplification of where the project is and what
>is planned or being massaged.
>
>Please let me know where to send the files.
sent them directly to bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
>The wirebook is in AutoCAD and if needed, I could also add a .DXF file
>if it would help.
Lets look at your planning documentation first. Do I understand
you did a spread-sheet/load analysis? Is it an Excel file?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 17AH battery dimensions |
>
>Bob:
>
> I plan on using two 17 amp batteries as recommended. What
>company do you recommend for these batteries? I would like to contact them
>to acquire the actual dimensions in order to build the platform/trays in the
>back of my Lancair ES.
How about dowloading:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/17AH.pdf
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DWENSING(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
In a message dated 10/17/02 8:47:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
doconnor(at)chartermi.net writes:
> BTW, I still have, and use now and then, a K&E slide rule, the Rolls Royce
> Silver Phantom of slip sticks...
I have a collections of slide rules that I started as people were throwing
them away. Don't know if they will ever be worth anything but they are
interesting to me. My grown kids had never seen one until recently when I
hauled them out.
Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jaye and Scott Jackson <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
'Kay, I'm really straining my old brain here, and it's just for fun.
Didn't K&E stand for Kuenst and Engel? Or am I thinking of K&N?
Scott in Vancouver( Hey.look! No capital A)
----- Original Message -----
From: <DWENSING(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Predicting the Future
>
> In a message dated 10/17/02 8:47:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> doconnor(at)chartermi.net writes:
>
>
> > BTW, I still have, and use now and then, a K&E slide rule, the Rolls
Royce
> > Silver Phantom of slip sticks...
>
> I have a collections of slide rules that I started as people were throwing
> them away. Don't know if they will ever be worth anything but they are
> interesting to me. My grown kids had never seen one until recently when I
> hauled them out.
> Dale
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
>
>
>'Kay, I'm really straining my old brain here, and it's just for fun.
>Didn't K&E stand for Kuenst and Engel? Or am I thinking of K&N?
Keuffel & Esser
> >
> > > BTW, I still have, and use now and then, a K&E slide rule, the Rolls
>Royce
> > > Silver Phantom of slip sticks...
> >
> > I have a collections of slide rules that I started as people were throwing
> > them away. Don't know if they will ever be worth anything but they are
> > interesting to me. My grown kids had never seen one until recently when I
> > hauled them out.
Me too. I bill them as the calculator for which batteries
and sticking keys are never an issue.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Top <jjtop1(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
>Eric:
It is worse than that.
I had a consulting contract for a couple of years with Cubic Optical
Systems, who bought K&E's Optical Products Division. They were master
craftsmen and technicians, but not too good in the predictions
department. TI went to them when they invented the original 4
function electronic calculator.
Since every engineer/engineering student in the country had a K&E
slide rule and was using K&E graph paper,TI wanted to team and use
the K&E name/logo on their calculator. K&E turned them down - thought
it might hurt their slide rule business.
Guess they were right.
I did manage to talk the president out of one of the last of the 6"
shirt pocket K&E slide rules in captivity.
>Small note about predictions--in 1967 Keuffel & Esser, the sliderule people,
>contracted for a sophisticated analysis of technology 1000 years in
>the future.
>This study generated glowing predictions of domed cities and even 3D
>television in
>2067, but failed to predict that nobody would need sliderules just 5
>years later.
>
>Eric M. Jones
--
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Ed's Lancair-System Planing |
I just bought a pair of 17ah RG batteries from http://www.meci.com,
part# 140-0094, 15.95 each. Someone posted a link last week with them
for 15.95 each, so I jumped on it (thanks whoever posted that link). I
bought the pair for use during initial testing and possibly the first
year, if they hold up and end up being good quality. Bob says they are
pretty much all the same, and these really look good, and have performed
well so far, so I tend to agree. The dimensions are about 6.625tall x
7.00wide x 3.00deep. I made my trays out of 2core2 from Lancair. I
made them 3.25x7.25 for a 0.25" clearance with a carbon strap that goes
over top to hold them in. Pictures are at
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/10_2002/
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N823ms(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ed's Lancair-System Planing
Bob:
I plan on using two 17 amp batteries as recommended. What
company do you recommend for these batteries? I would like to contact
them
to acquire the actual dimensions in order to build the platform/trays in
the
back of my Lancair ES.
Thanks,
Ed Silvanic
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
Bob, (thought this would be simple answers, so it must not have gone
through the first time I sent it)
I'm finishing the details of my electrical system design for my Lancair
Legacy, working on the power grid/contactors right now. To refresh you,
it is a dual alt/bat sys, similar to your depiction in z14. dual 17ah
bats will be behind the seat with the bat and crossfeed contactors there
on a power grid, and there will be a starter (and avionics) power grid
on the firewall, and there will be a final contactor bank in the aft
fuselage where the hyd pump and air conditioning is. I have a couple of
questions though:
1) why is the wire from the starter contactor to the starter shown as
2awg, while the wire feeding it from the batteries is only 4awg.
Shouldn't the wire from the bat to starter contactor also be 2awg,
especially in a situation like this where there is 7-10 feet between the
contactors?
2) is there any reason I can't move the shunt to the other side of the
contactor to measure amp draw on the bat? Likewise, I will pull the
crossfeed and starter feed off before the shunt so there is no drop on
it and to eliminate any problems there. If this doesn't make sense, I
can include a drawing. Heres basically what I have in mind:
B+ 0--O contr 0--0--0 bat_shunt 0--0--0 alt_shunt 0--0 anl30 0--0 alt
| |
| |
xfeed main
cont & bus
starter
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ed's Lancair-System Planing |
Ed
I am building a ES and I used B and C. I also have pictures of the bracket I
built. see the link
Ron Raby
N829R
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: <N823ms(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ed's Lancair-System Planing
>
> Bob:
>
> I plan on using two 17 amp batteries as recommended. What
> company do you recommend for these batteries? I would like to contact
them
> to acquire the actual dimensions in order to build the platform/trays in
the
> back of my Lancair ES.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed Silvanic
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Keuffel und Esser
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | s701/2 contactors |
Bob,
Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume you
strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I know
it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays, but
in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
for a good relay.
Here is an equipment list and its amp draw, protection, location and
buss:
PROT PANEL
PANEL
DESCRIPTION AMPS SIZE LABEL
GROUP BUS
MAIN BUSS
Landing Gear Pump 30.00 40 HYD PUMP
bulkhead MAIN BUSS
Air Cond Compressor Motor 35.00 35 A/C COMP bulkhead
MAIN BUSS
Air Conditioning Fan Motor 3.00 5 A/C FAN bulkhead
MAIN BUSS
total 68.00 80
3
Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 2
PRI AV MAIN BUSS Avidyne MFD 4.00
4
MOVING MAP PRI AV MAIN BUSS
Frantz AOA 0.50 2 AOA
PRI AV MAIN BUSS
Trutrak Autopilot 1.00 7 AUTO PILOT
PRI AV MAIN BUSS
BFG Stormscope 0.50 3 STORM SCOPE PRI
AV
MAIN BUSS Merlin Weather Datalnk 0.75 3 DATA
LINK PRI AV MAIN BUSS Garmin GPS/NAV/COMM 0.50
5
NAV/COM 2 PRI AV MAIN BUSS
0.50 2 GPS
PRI AV MAIN BUSS total 12.75
31
8
Flaps Motor 5.00 10 FLAP MOTOR
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Speed Brakes 0.25 4 SPEED BRAKE PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Fuel Trans Pump 1.50 5 TRANS PUMP PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Fuel Boost Pump 1.75 10 BOOST PUMP
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Starter, other relays 0.50 7 OTHER RELAY PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Pitot Heat 7.25 10 PITOT HEAT
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Mountain High Oxygen System 0.50 2 O2 SYSTEM PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
JPI Slim Line Volt/Amp Disp 0.50 1 VOLT/AMP PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Strobe Lights 2.75 7 STROBES PRIMARY
MAIN
BUSS
Nav Lights 2.75 7 NAV LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Taxi Lights 4.00 7 TAXI LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Land Lights 4.00 7 LAND LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Door Seal 0.50 5 DOOR SEAL
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
CD/DVD Player 0.50 2 CD/DVD SYS PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Turn Coordinator 0.75 2 TURN COORD
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Main Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 MAIN V REG PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Warning Lights 0.50 2 WARN LIGHTS PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Dimmable Lighting 1.00 7 PANEL LIGHT
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Cabin Lights 0.25 5 CABIN LIGHT PRIMARY
MAIN BATT
Power Points 2.00 5 POWER POINT PRIMARY
MAIN BATT
Ryan TCAD 0.75 5 RYAN TCAD
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
total 39.00 115
21
TOTAL MAIN BUSS 119.7 226
32
AUX BUSS
Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 1
ESS AV AUX BUSS
Solid State Attitude Gyro 0.50 5 EFIS AHRS ESS AV
AUX BUSS
PS Engineering audio panel 0.50 3 AUDIO PANEL ESS AV
AUX BUSS
Apollo Comm 0.50 5 UPS COM 1
ESS AV AUX BUSS
Garmin Transponder 1.50 2 TRAN/ENCODE ESS AV
AUX BUSS
??? SPARE
ESS AV AUX BUSS
total 8.00 20
6
Trim System Motors 1.00 3 TRIM ESS
AUX BUSS
Aux Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 AUX V REG ESS
AUX BUSS
Sierra Engine Data Unit & GPS 1.00 5 EAU/GPS ESS
AUX BUSS
Landing Gear Relays 0.50 2 GEAR RELAYS ESS
AUX BUSS
Gear Indicator Lights 0.50 1 GEAR LEDS ESS
AUX BUSS
Attitude Indicator 0.75 2 ATT GYRO ESS
AUX BUSS
??? SPARE
ESS AUX BUSS
total 5.75 18
4
TOTAL AUX BUSS 13.75 38 10
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | s701/2 contactors |
Bob,
Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume you
strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I know
it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays, but
in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
for a good relay.
Here is an equipment list and its amp draw, protection, location and
buss (I have this in spreadsheet form if you'd like to post it):
PROT PANEL
PANEL
DESCRIPTION AMPS SIZE LABEL
GROUP BUS
MAIN BUSS
Landing Gear Pump 30.00 40 HYD PUMP
bulkhead MAIN BUSS
Air Cond Compressor Motor 35.00 35 A/C COMP bulkhead
MAIN BUSS
Air Conditioning Fan Motor 3.00 5 A/C FAN bulkhead
MAIN BUSS
total 68.00 80
3
Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 2
PRI AV MAIN BUSS Avidyne MFD 4.00
4
MOVING MAP PRI AV MAIN BUSS
Frantz AOA 0.50 2 AOA
PRI AV MAIN BUSS
Trutrak Autopilot 1.00 7 AUTO PILOT
PRI AV MAIN BUSS
BFG Stormscope 0.50 3 STORM SCOPE PRI
AV
MAIN BUSS Merlin Weather Datalnk 0.75 3 DATA
LINK PRI AV MAIN BUSS Garmin GPS/NAV/COMM 0.50
5
NAV/COM 2 PRI AV MAIN BUSS
0.50 2 GPS
PRI AV MAIN BUSS total 12.75
31
8
Flaps Motor 5.00 10 FLAP MOTOR
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Speed Brakes 0.25 4 SPEED BRAKE PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Fuel Trans Pump 1.50 5 TRANS PUMP PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Fuel Boost Pump 1.75 10 BOOST PUMP
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Starter, other relays 0.50 7 OTHER RELAY PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Pitot Heat 7.25 10 PITOT HEAT
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Mountain High Oxygen System 0.50 2 O2 SYSTEM PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
JPI Slim Line Volt/Amp Disp 0.50 1 VOLT/AMP PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Strobe Lights 2.75 7 STROBES PRIMARY
MAIN
BUSS
Nav Lights 2.75 7 NAV LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Taxi Lights 4.00 7 TAXI LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Land Lights 4.00 7 LAND LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Door Seal 0.50 5 DOOR SEAL
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
CD/DVD Player 0.50 2 CD/DVD SYS PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Turn Coordinator 0.75 2 TURN COORD
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Main Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 MAIN V REG PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Warning Lights 0.50 2 WARN LIGHTS PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Dimmable Lighting 1.00 7 PANEL LIGHT
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Cabin Lights 0.25 5 CABIN LIGHT PRIMARY
MAIN BATT
Power Points 2.00 5 POWER POINT PRIMARY
MAIN BATT
Ryan TCAD 0.75 5 RYAN TCAD
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
total 39.00 115
21
TOTAL MAIN BUSS 119.7 226
32
AUX BUSS
Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 1
ESS AV AUX BUSS
Solid State Attitude Gyro 0.50 5 EFIS AHRS ESS AV
AUX BUSS
PS Engineering audio panel 0.50 3 AUDIO PANEL ESS AV
AUX BUSS
Apollo Comm 0.50 5 UPS COM 1
ESS AV AUX BUSS
Garmin Transponder 1.50 2 TRAN/ENCODE ESS AV
AUX BUSS
??? SPARE
ESS AV AUX BUSS
total 8.00 20
6
Trim System Motors 1.00 3 TRIM ESS
AUX BUSS
Aux Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 AUX V REG ESS
AUX BUSS
Sierra Engine Data Unit & GPS 1.00 5 EAU/GPS ESS
AUX BUSS
Landing Gear Relays 0.50 2 GEAR RELAYS ESS
AUX BUSS
Gear Indicator Lights 0.50 1 GEAR LEDS ESS
AUX BUSS
Attitude Indicator 0.75 2 ATT GYRO ESS
AUX BUSS
??? SPARE
ESS AUX BUSS
total 5.75 18
4
TOTAL AUX BUSS 13.75 38 10
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | s701/2 contactors |
Wow, what a mess that turned out, let me try again:
DESCRIPTION AMPS
MAIN BUS
===================================
(bus in bulkhead)
Landing Gear Pump 30.00
Air Cond Compressor Motor 35.00
Air Conditioning Fan Motor 3.00
sub 68.00
(pri avionics bus, panel)
Sierra FS screen 5.00
Avidyne MFD 4.00
Frantz AOA 0.50
Trutrak Autopilot 1.00
BFG Stormscope 0.50
Merlin Weather Datalnk 0.75
Garmin GPS/NAV/COMM 0.50
0.50
sub 12.75
(main bus in panel)
Flaps Motor 5.00
Speed Brakes 0.25
Fuel Trans Pump 1.50
Fuel Boost Pump 1.75
Starter, other relays 0.50
Pitot Heat 7.25
Mountain High Oxygen System 0.50
JPI Slim Line Volt/Amp Disp 0.50
Strobe Lights 2.75
Nav Lights 2.75
Taxi Lights 4.00
Land Lights 4.00
Door Seal 0.50
CD/DVD Player 0.50
Turn Coordinator 0.75
Main Voltage Regulator 2.00
Warning Lights 0.50
Dimmable Lighting 1.00
Cabin Lights 0.25 (batt bus)
Power Points 2.00 (batt bus)
Ryan TCAD 0.75
sub 39.00
TOTAL MAIN BUS 119.75
AUX BUSS
(ess avionics bus, panel)
Sierra FS screen 5.00
Solid State Attitude Gyro 0.50
PS Engineering audio panel 0.50
Apollo Comm 0.50
Garmin Transponder 1.50
Spare ???
sub 8.00
(aux buss, panel)
Trim System Motors 1.00
Aux Voltage Regulator 2.00
Sierra Engine Data Unit & GPS 1.00
Landing Gear Relays 0.50
Gear Indicator Lights 0.50
Attitude Indicator 0.75
Spare ???
sub 5.75
TOTAL AUX BUSS 13.75
I have this in spreadsheet form if you would like to post it.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Shannon Knoepflein
Subject: AeroElectric-List: s701/2 contactors
Bob,
Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume you
strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I know
it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays, but
in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
for a good relay.
Here is an equipment list and its amp draw, protection, location and
buss:
PROT PANEL
PANEL
DESCRIPTION AMPS SIZE LABEL
GROUP BUS
MAIN BUSS
Landing Gear Pump 30.00 40 HYD PUMP
bulkhead MAIN BUSS
Air Cond Compressor Motor 35.00 35 A/C COMP
bulkhead
MAIN BUSS
Air Conditioning Fan Motor 3.00 5 A/C FAN
bulkhead
MAIN BUSS
total 68.00 80
3
Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 2
PRI AV MAIN BUSS Avidyne MFD 4.00
4
MOVING MAP PRI AV MAIN BUSS
Frantz AOA 0.50 2 AOA
PRI AV MAIN BUSS
Trutrak Autopilot 1.00 7 AUTO PILOT
PRI AV MAIN BUSS
BFG Stormscope 0.50 3 STORM SCOPE
PRI AV
MAIN BUSS Merlin Weather Datalnk 0.75 3
DATA
LINK PRI AV MAIN BUSS Garmin GPS/NAV/COMM
0.50 5
NAV/COM 2 PRI AV MAIN BUSS
0.50 2 GPS
PRI AV MAIN BUSS total
12.75 31
8
Flaps Motor 5.00 10 FLAP
MOTOR
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Speed Brakes 0.25 4 SPEED BRAKE
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Fuel Trans Pump 1.50 5 TRANS PUMP
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Fuel Boost Pump 1.75 10 BOOST PUMP
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Starter, other relays 0.50 7 OTHER RELAY
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Pitot Heat 7.25 10 PITOT
HEAT
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Mountain High Oxygen System 0.50 2 O2 SYSTEM
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
JPI Slim Line Volt/Amp Disp 0.50 1 VOLT/AMP
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Strobe Lights 2.75 7 STROBES
PRIMARY MAIN
BUSS
Nav Lights 2.75 7 NAV
LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Taxi Lights 4.00 7 TAXI
LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Land Lights 4.00 7 LAND
LIGHTS
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Door Seal 0.50 5 DOOR SEAL
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
CD/DVD Player 0.50 2 CD/DVD SYS
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Turn Coordinator 0.75 2 TURN COORD
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Main Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 MAIN V REG
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Warning Lights 0.50 2 WARN LIGHTS
PRIMARY
MAIN BUSS
Dimmable Lighting 1.00 7 PANEL
LIGHT
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
Cabin Lights 0.25 5 CABIN LIGHT
PRIMARY
MAIN BATT
Power Points 2.00 5 POWER POINT
PRIMARY
MAIN BATT
Ryan TCAD 0.75 5 RYAN TCAD
PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
total 39.00 115
21
TOTAL MAIN BUSS 119.7 226
32
AUX BUSS
Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 1
ESS AV AUX BUSS
Solid State Attitude Gyro 0.50 5 EFIS AHRS
ESS AV
AUX BUSS
PS Engineering audio panel 0.50 3 AUDIO PANEL
ESS AV
AUX BUSS
Apollo Comm 0.50 5 UPS COM
1
ESS AV AUX BUSS
Garmin Transponder 1.50 2 TRAN/ENCODE
ESS AV
AUX BUSS
??? SPARE
ESS AV AUX BUSS
total 8.00 20
6
Trim System Motors 1.00 3 TRIM
ESS
AUX BUSS
Aux Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 AUX V REG
ESS
AUX BUSS
Sierra Engine Data Unit & GPS 1.00 5 EAU/GPS
ESS
AUX BUSS
Landing Gear Relays 0.50 2 GEAR RELAYS
ESS
AUX BUSS
Gear Indicator Lights 0.50 1 GEAR LEDS
ESS
AUX BUSS
Attitude Indicator 0.75 2 ATT GYRO
ESS
AUX BUSS
??? SPARE
ESS AUX BUSS
total 5.75 18
4
TOTAL AUX BUSS 13.75 38
10
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Portalac battery bargains |
>
>
>I just bought a pair of 17ah RG batteries from http://www.meci.com,
>part# 140-0094, 15.95 each. Someone posted a link last week with them
>for 15.95 each, so I jumped on it (thanks whoever posted that link). I
>bought the pair for use during initial testing and possibly the first
>year, if they hold up and end up being good quality. Bob says they are
>pretty much all the same, and these really look good, and have performed
>well so far, so I tend to agree.
Don't know as I would call them "pretty much the same" . . .
If one were going to use these batteries in a long-term
application where they were regularly called upon to
deliver significant amounts of energy (deep discharge
cycles) I'm sure you will find significant differences
between the low-dollar products and premium products like
the Hawkers.
Our ability to get adequate performance from about ANY
battery hinges on what we're going to call "service life".
We can choose to (1) periodic capacity check and change
out when remaining capacity no longer serves our minimum
endurance needs or (2) do periodic changeouts at intervals
so short that the absolute quality of the battery is not
significant. Adopting the first technique gives us detailed
information about the battery's real capabilities but it
takes and investment of time and tools to add yet another
activity to the maintenance tasks on our airplanes. We've
deduced that "buy-em-cheap-and-change-them-often" offers
an equivalent level of reliability for the operation of
the airplane without investing in a science project that
bares the soul of every battery.
I checked out the website cited and note that the company
running this service seems to dabble in a bit of everything
with no full line of anything. This suggests an operation
that deals in industrial surplus. This is not an automatic
mark against them or the products they offer. I buy a LOT
of components from surplus dealers. I'll suggest this
raises a flag of doubt as to how old the batteries may
be and how well cared for since new. Were these batteries
originally purchased by a company now bankrupt? Did they
sit in a hot warehouse for a couple of years while a
bankruptcy court set the rules of liquidation? Other
companies sell the same battery in the $50-70 range
which is at least a suggestion that normal procurement
costs of this battery are to high to justify a
regular retail price of $16.
I'd never heard of the brand offered so I poked around
on the 'net and found the company's website
at http://www.gsbattery.com/info.html
and their specifications for the PE12V17 battery at:
http://www.gsbattery.com/sla/pe12v17/pe12v17.html
The whole line of Portalac offerings can be viewed
at:
http://www.gsbattery.com/sla/masterlinecard.htm
where you will see that this is not the hottest
battery offered in terms of high-rate output
(see PX series). However I do note on the spec sheet
for the PE12V17, they claim to support 255A for
5 seconds. A pair of batteries in parallel would
be good for about 510A for 5 seconds or 225A
for longer. All-in-all, if the battery is in
good shape, should perform well in a dual
battery airplane.
Here I learned that the battery is a Japanese import
and GS Battery doesn't make them here in the US.
This raises yet another flag suggesting that there
are extra layers of marketing between you as a
user and the original manufacturer.
So, it still boils down to a fine example of
"caveat emptor" . . . these batteries may well
be an excellent value. I'd certainly give them
a try but be suspicious/critical.
Irrespective of your findings (good or bad) be
sure to let everyone on the list hear about it!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Portalac battery bargains |
I bought them with your exact ideology in mind: buy em cheap and
replace them often. I plan to replace them either before the first
flight, or after the initial 40 hour testing phase. I got them cheap so
I could use them to test everything in the plane. If they will still
start it when its time in a couple months, then I'll still use them, and
replace them shortly after. If not, I'll replace them before. Either
way, I'll post the results. I thought for 30 bucks, I couldn't go wrong
to at least try them out and let me test everything.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Portalac battery bargains
>
>
>I just bought a pair of 17ah RG batteries from http://www.meci.com,
>part# 140-0094, 15.95 each. Someone posted a link last week with them
>for 15.95 each, so I jumped on it (thanks whoever posted that link). I
>bought the pair for use during initial testing and possibly the first
>year, if they hold up and end up being good quality. Bob says they are
>pretty much all the same, and these really look good, and have
performed
>well so far, so I tend to agree.
Don't know as I would call them "pretty much the same" . . .
If one were going to use these batteries in a long-term
application where they were regularly called upon to
deliver significant amounts of energy (deep discharge
cycles) I'm sure you will find significant differences
between the low-dollar products and premium products like
the Hawkers.
Our ability to get adequate performance from about ANY
battery hinges on what we're going to call "service life".
We can choose to (1) periodic capacity check and change
out when remaining capacity no longer serves our minimum
endurance needs or (2) do periodic changeouts at intervals
so short that the absolute quality of the battery is not
significant. Adopting the first technique gives us detailed
information about the battery's real capabilities but it
takes and investment of time and tools to add yet another
activity to the maintenance tasks on our airplanes. We've
deduced that "buy-em-cheap-and-change-them-often" offers
an equivalent level of reliability for the operation of
the airplane without investing in a science project that
bares the soul of every battery.
I checked out the website cited and note that the company
running this service seems to dabble in a bit of everything
with no full line of anything. This suggests an operation
that deals in industrial surplus. This is not an automatic
mark against them or the products they offer. I buy a LOT
of components from surplus dealers. I'll suggest this
raises a flag of doubt as to how old the batteries may
be and how well cared for since new. Were these batteries
originally purchased by a company now bankrupt? Did they
sit in a hot warehouse for a couple of years while a
bankruptcy court set the rules of liquidation? Other
companies sell the same battery in the $50-70 range
which is at least a suggestion that normal procurement
costs of this battery are to high to justify a
regular retail price of $16.
I'd never heard of the brand offered so I poked around
on the 'net and found the company's website
at http://www.gsbattery.com/info.html
and their specifications for the PE12V17 battery at:
http://www.gsbattery.com/sla/pe12v17/pe12v17.html
The whole line of Portalac offerings can be viewed
at:
http://www.gsbattery.com/sla/masterlinecard.htm
where you will see that this is not the hottest
battery offered in terms of high-rate output
(see PX series). However I do note on the spec sheet
for the PE12V17, they claim to support 255A for
5 seconds. A pair of batteries in parallel would
be good for about 510A for 5 seconds or 225A
for longer. All-in-all, if the battery is in
good shape, should perform well in a dual
battery airplane.
Here I learned that the battery is a Japanese import
and GS Battery doesn't make them here in the US.
This raises yet another flag suggesting that there
are extra layers of marketing between you as a
user and the original manufacturer.
So, it still boils down to a fine example of
"caveat emptor" . . . these batteries may well
be an excellent value. I'd certainly give them
a try but be suspicious/critical.
Irrespective of your findings (good or bad) be
sure to let everyone on the list hear about it!
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: s701/2 contactors |
Shannon, suggest that you peruse the archives as this topic has been covered
in depth as to why specific relays are used for starters versus what is used
for a continuous contactor... Also, BOb's book goes into detail about this
topic..
Cheers ... Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: s701/2 contactors
>
> Bob,
>
> Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
> get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume you
> strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
> s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I know
> it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
> cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
> relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays, but
> in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
> few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
> it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
> for a good relay.
>
> Here is an equipment list and its amp draw, protection, location and
> buss:
>
> PROT PANEL
> PANEL
> DESCRIPTION AMPS SIZE LABEL
> GROUP BUS
>
> MAIN BUSS
> Landing Gear Pump 30.00 40 HYD PUMP
> bulkhead MAIN BUSS
> Air Cond Compressor Motor 35.00 35 A/C COMP
bulkhead
> MAIN BUSS
> Air Conditioning Fan Motor 3.00 5 A/C FAN
bulkhead
> MAIN BUSS
> total 68.00 80
> 3
>
> Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 2
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS Avidyne MFD 4.00
4
> MOVING MAP PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> Frantz AOA 0.50 2 AOA
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> Trutrak Autopilot 1.00 7 AUTO PILOT
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> BFG Stormscope 0.50 3 STORM SCOPE
PRI AV
> MAIN BUSS Merlin Weather Datalnk 0.75 3 DATA
> LINK PRI AV MAIN BUSS Garmin GPS/NAV/COMM
0.50 5
> NAV/COM 2 PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> 0.50 2 GPS
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS total 12.75
31
> 8
>
> Flaps Motor 5.00 10 FLAP
MOTOR
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Speed Brakes 0.25 4 SPEED BRAKE
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Fuel Trans Pump 1.50 5 TRANS PUMP
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Fuel Boost Pump 1.75 10 BOOST PUMP
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Starter, other relays 0.50 7 OTHER RELAY
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Pitot Heat 7.25 10 PITOT HEAT
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Mountain High Oxygen System 0.50 2 O2 SYSTEM
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> JPI Slim Line Volt/Amp Disp 0.50 1 VOLT/AMP
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Strobe Lights 2.75 7 STROBES
PRIMARY MAIN
> BUSS
> Nav Lights 2.75 7 NAV LIGHTS
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Taxi Lights 4.00 7 TAXI
LIGHTS
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Land Lights 4.00 7 LAND
LIGHTS
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Door Seal 0.50 5 DOOR SEAL
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> CD/DVD Player 0.50 2 CD/DVD SYS
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Turn Coordinator 0.75 2 TURN COORD
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Main Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 MAIN V REG
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Warning Lights 0.50 2 WARN LIGHTS
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Dimmable Lighting 1.00 7 PANEL LIGHT
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Cabin Lights 0.25 5 CABIN LIGHT
PRIMARY
> MAIN BATT
> Power Points 2.00 5 POWER POINT
PRIMARY
> MAIN BATT
> Ryan TCAD 0.75 5 RYAN TCAD
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> total 39.00 115
> 21
>
> TOTAL MAIN BUSS 119.7 226
32
>
>
> AUX BUSS
> Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD 1
> ESS AV AUX BUSS
> Solid State Attitude Gyro 0.50 5 EFIS AHRS ESS
AV
> AUX BUSS
> PS Engineering audio panel 0.50 3 AUDIO PANEL
ESS AV
> AUX BUSS
> Apollo Comm 0.50 5 UPS COM 1
> ESS AV AUX BUSS
> Garmin Transponder 1.50 2 TRAN/ENCODE
ESS AV
> AUX BUSS
> ??? SPARE
> ESS AV AUX BUSS
> total 8.00 20
> 6
>
> Trim System Motors 1.00 3 TRIM
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Aux Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 AUX V REG
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Sierra Engine Data Unit & GPS 1.00 5 EAU/GPS
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Landing Gear Relays 0.50 2 GEAR RELAYS
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Gear Indicator Lights 0.50 1 GEAR LEDS
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Attitude Indicator 0.75 2 ATT GYRO ESS
> AUX BUSS
> ??? SPARE
> ESS AUX BUSS
> total 5.75 18
> 4
>
> TOTAL AUX BUSS 13.75 38
10
>
> ---
> Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ed's Lancair-System Planing |
Ron:
Thanks for your reply. I really would like to see the pictures of your
battery box/tray and bracket. I can't seem to find your link. Went to your
design website and B&C, but no luck. What am I doing wrong.
On another topic. I am getting ready to closeout the left aileron. How
did you route your wires from your Ray Allen servo? I would like to run the
wires in a small plastic tubing so as to rerun wire should I need to. This
would be from the outboard side of the aileron to the wing tip area, and of
course from there through the leading edge 1 inch conduit. Lastly, should I
want to replace or inspect the servo I am looking for some connectors. I
would also use some connectors so I can remove the aileron as well. Is this
too much? Some people have ran there wires toward the inboard side down the
trailing edge of the wing.
Getting ready to install a cabin blower to the ventilation system from
the vertical stab NACA scoop. I have friend that is finishing his IVP, and
decided to put in AC, so he's going to let me have his box that he made for
the blower. Any recommendations here.
Engine. I just ordered an IO-520"D," 300hp, 60amp ALT, rear driven by
belt with the starter. Will be doing Bob's Z-14, Dual ALT/BAT system.
Considering electronic ignition, however, I have no clue what's out there or
the advantages thereof. Are you planning electronic ignition? and if so what
do you recommend, and are you going MAG/EI or dual EI.
Avionics: Just ordered a Garman stack: 340/GNS-530,GNS-430,GTX-327.
Autopilot: TruTrak 200/250?
Sorry I asked you so many questions. I am ready to close the left
wing. The left flap is closed out, and of course the aileron if I can figure
out the right wiring. I have the vertical stab/hrizontal stab, and have a
rudder hanging.
Target date: Next summer some time.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | s701/2 contactors |
Thanks, will do.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Dennis O'Connor
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: s701/2 contactors
Shannon, suggest that you peruse the archives as this topic has been
covered
in depth as to why specific relays are used for starters versus what is
used
for a continuous contactor... Also, BOb's book goes into detail about
this
topic..
Cheers ... Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: s701/2 contactors
>
> Bob,
>
> Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
> get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume
you
> strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
> s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I
know
> it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
> cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
> relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays,
but
> in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
> few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
> it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
> for a good relay.
>
> Here is an equipment list and its amp draw, protection, location and
> buss:
>
> PROT PANEL
> PANEL
> DESCRIPTION AMPS SIZE
LABEL
> GROUP BUS
>
> MAIN BUSS
> Landing Gear Pump 30.00 40 HYD
PUMP
> bulkhead MAIN BUSS
> Air Cond Compressor Motor 35.00 35 A/C COMP
bulkhead
> MAIN BUSS
> Air Conditioning Fan Motor 3.00 5 A/C FAN
bulkhead
> MAIN BUSS
> total 68.00 80
> 3
>
> Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD
2
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS Avidyne MFD
4.00
4
> MOVING MAP PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> Frantz AOA 0.50 2 AOA
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> Trutrak Autopilot 1.00 7 AUTO
PILOT
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> BFG Stormscope 0.50 3 STORM SCOPE
PRI AV
> MAIN BUSS Merlin Weather Datalnk 0.75 3
DATA
> LINK PRI AV MAIN BUSS Garmin GPS/NAV/COMM
0.50 5
> NAV/COM 2 PRI AV MAIN BUSS
> 0.50 2 GPS
> PRI AV MAIN BUSS total
12.75
31
> 8
>
> Flaps Motor 5.00 10 FLAP
MOTOR
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Speed Brakes 0.25 4 SPEED BRAKE
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Fuel Trans Pump 1.50 5 TRANS PUMP
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Fuel Boost Pump 1.75 10 BOOST
PUMP
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Starter, other relays 0.50 7 OTHER RELAY
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Pitot Heat 7.25 10 PITOT
HEAT
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Mountain High Oxygen System 0.50 2 O2 SYSTEM
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> JPI Slim Line Volt/Amp Disp 0.50 1 VOLT/AMP
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Strobe Lights 2.75 7 STROBES
PRIMARY MAIN
> BUSS
> Nav Lights 2.75 7 NAV
LIGHTS
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Taxi Lights 4.00 7 TAXI
LIGHTS
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Land Lights 4.00 7 LAND
LIGHTS
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Door Seal 0.50 5 DOOR
SEAL
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> CD/DVD Player 0.50 2 CD/DVD SYS
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Turn Coordinator 0.75 2 TURN
COORD
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Main Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 MAIN V REG
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Warning Lights 0.50 2 WARN LIGHTS
PRIMARY
> MAIN BUSS
> Dimmable Lighting 1.00 7 PANEL
LIGHT
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> Cabin Lights 0.25 5 CABIN LIGHT
PRIMARY
> MAIN BATT
> Power Points 2.00 5 POWER POINT
PRIMARY
> MAIN BATT
> Ryan TCAD 0.75 5 RYAN
TCAD
> PRIMARY MAIN BUSS
> total 39.00 115
> 21
>
> TOTAL MAIN BUSS 119.7 226
32
>
>
> AUX BUSS
> Sierra FS screen 5.00 5 EFIS MFD
1
> ESS AV AUX BUSS
> Solid State Attitude Gyro 0.50 5 EFIS AHRS
ESS
AV
> AUX BUSS
> PS Engineering audio panel 0.50 3 AUDIO PANEL
ESS AV
> AUX BUSS
> Apollo Comm 0.50 5 UPS
COM 1
> ESS AV AUX BUSS
> Garmin Transponder 1.50 2 TRAN/ENCODE
ESS AV
> AUX BUSS
> ??? SPARE
> ESS AV AUX BUSS
> total 8.00 20
> 6
>
> Trim System Motors 1.00 3 TRIM
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Aux Voltage Regulator 2.00 5 AUX V REG
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Sierra Engine Data Unit & GPS 1.00 5 EAU/GPS
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Landing Gear Relays 0.50 2 GEAR RELAYS
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Gear Indicator Lights 0.50 1 GEAR LEDS
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> Attitude Indicator 0.75 2 ATT GYRO
ESS
> AUX BUSS
> ??? SPARE
> ESS AUX BUSS
> total 5.75 18
> 4
>
> TOTAL AUX BUSS 13.75 38
10
>
> ---
> Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Portalac battery bargains |
>
>
>I bought them with your exact ideology in mind: buy em cheap and
>replace them often. I plan to replace them either before the first
>flight, or after the initial 40 hour testing phase. I got them cheap so
>I could use them to test everything in the plane. If they will still
>start it when its time in a couple months, then I'll still use them, and
>replace them shortly after. If not, I'll replace them before. Either
>way, I'll post the results. I thought for 30 bucks, I couldn't go wrong
>to at least try them out and let me test everything.
sounds like a PLAN . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Brooks" <kdbrv8r(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Microair T-2000 SFL Transponders |
Hello, -listers!
Took Dave's advice and called American Avionics to inquire about
Microair T-2000 SFL transponders and the sales guy said they just got 4 in
today (Friday, Oct 18) and he had 2 left! I got one of the two remaining
and it was quitting time on Friday, so if you call early on Monday (Oct 21),
you might get the last of their most recent shipment. Price is $1195.00
U.S. Good luck.
Bob, when the one I ordered from you comes in, please give it to the next
guy down on the list. Thanks. I would still like your encoder, antenna and
harness, however, if I can still get that within a couple of weeks. If
that's not possible, I'll go another route. Thanks again.
Ken Brooks
RV-8
Roscoe, IL -- wishing I owned stock in Microair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Brooks" <kdbrv8r(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | American Avionics Sales Dept - was Microair T2000 SFL |
Transponder
Ooops! I was going to include in my previous post, contact info for anyone wishing
to talk to American Avionics about a Microair T2000 SFL transponder. Call
early Monday, the 21st! It is:
American Avionics sales at 1-800-890-5640
Their website is www.americanavionics.com
but their link to Microair is inop.
Ken Brooks
Roscoe, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
pulsar-builders(at)caseyk.org
10/18/2002
Hello Fellow Builders, Stainless steel, flat head, 100 degree countersink,
six lobe recess drive*, screws are now available in the following sizes with
Micro Fastener catalog numbers in ( ).
4-40X1/2 (FCMXS0408) T8 recess
6-32X ? (not quite available yet, but soon. Check with John at Micro
Fasteners)
8X32-5/8 (FCMXS0810) T15 recess**
10X32-3/4 (FCMXS1112) T20 recess
**You may recall that a previous batch of the 8X32 screws had T20 recess
drives. These screw heads did not have adequate strength and Micro Fastener
is shipping replacement T15 drive 8X32 screws to all who purchased the
earlier batch.
I'd like to emphasize that these are special configuration screws that are
not available elsewhere. Also these screws are intended for use in amateur
built experimental aircraft. While these screws were not manufactured to NASM
/ MS 24694 standards I have personally installation tested the 8X32 size
screws and have received a report of strength testing that gives me
confidence in using these screws in my aircraft for structural purposes such
as fastening aluminum hinges to composite control and flight surfaces.
The decision to use these screws and the manner of their use rests with the
individual builder.
You may contact Micro Fasteners at: 800-892-6917 or email
<> web site is <<http://microfasteners.com>>
I request that you relay this posting to any group that you may be part of
that has members that could be interested in this information. Thank you.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
*PS: While there is no longer a patent in force for Torx drive screws the
name Torx is still a registered trademark. So manufacturers are making screws
and drive tools entirely compatible with the Torx configuration and various T
sizes, but not using the Torx name.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Internally Regulated Alternator Adjustment? |
Answering my own question here: apparently my Hitachi (unknown model
nr.) internally regulated alternator requires battery voltage on its "S"
terminal to regulate at 14.2 volts. With no connection to "S", its
output rises to 15 volts. Perhaps the "S" means "sense". It certainly
doesn't mean "start" in the case of this alternator.
For alternator starting, I found that some current must be injected into
the "L" terminal. With no connection there, my alternator wouldn't come
on line below 2400 (engine) RPM. In my installation, I feed it from the
same source that feeds the "S" connection but through a 20-ohm resistor.
"L" stands for "lamp" terminal -- the idiot light on the dash. In some
70s automotive designs, the lamp supplied the alternator starting
current and when the lamp burned out the alternator wouldn't start
(except by residual magnetism).
Thanks to Charlie Kuss for his suggestions.
--
Joe
On 10/13/2002 05:59 Joe Dubner wrote:
> How does one accomplish an "adjustment" of the output voltage of an
> internally regulated alternator?
>
> I fly a homebuilt (I'm not the original builder) that uses an internally
> regulated Hitachi alternator on a Lycoming. The alternator raises the
> battery buss to a value between between 14.9 and 15.1 when the engine
> runs. I'd like to replace the conventional lead-acid battery with a
> "gel cell" someday and know this is too high (for either type of battery).
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
> Clarkston, WA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ed's Lancair-System Planing |
Ed -
Check Bob's website. He has already done this.
Http://209.134.106.21/articles/macservo/macservo.html.
We routed the wire per the book - outboard, then back thru the wing in
the conduit. You'll need 2 connectors: one to get the aileron off and
the other to get the servo out of the aileron.
John Schroeder & Ron Szot
Lancair Super ES - 2 wings, 2 flaps, 2 ailerons, 2 elevators & H-S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ed's Lancair-System Planing |
John:
Thanks for the reply. I have the print out of the sub "D" miniature
connector. It's 9 pin, and will work great for the elevator and rudder trim
servos with a 5 wire connection. Just thought that there maybe something else
out there for a two wire connection. Some guys are using the radio control
airplane connectors for this servo.
Regards,
Ed Silvanic
N823MS @aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob, (thought this would be simple answers, so it must not have gone
>through the first time I sent it)
>
>I'm finishing the details of my electrical system design for my Lancair
>Legacy, working on the power grid/contactors right now. To refresh you,
>it is a dual alt/bat sys, similar to your depiction in z14. dual 17ah
>bats will be behind the seat with the bat and crossfeed contactors there
>on a power grid, and there will be a starter (and avionics) power grid
>on the firewall, and there will be a final contactor bank in the aft
>fuselage where the hyd pump and air conditioning is. I have a couple of
>questions though:
I'm not understanding your used of the term "grid" . . . when
you say "similar" to Z-14, how is it to be different and why?
>1) why is the wire from the starter contactor to the starter shown as
>2awg, while the wire feeding it from the batteries is only 4awg.
>Shouldn't the wire from the bat to starter contactor also be 2awg,
>especially in a situation like this where there is 7-10 feet between the
>contactors?
The power distribution diagrams are generalizations intended
to depict architecture. If your battery(ies) are a long way
from the engine, cranking current conductors would be 2AWG.
If the battery(ies) are close, 4AWG will suffice.
>2) is there any reason I can't move the shunt to the other side of the
>contactor to measure amp draw on the bat? Likewise, I will pull the
>crossfeed and starter feed off before the shunt so there is no drop on
>it and to eliminate any problems there. If this doesn't make sense, I
>can include a drawing. Heres basically what I have in mind:
>
>B+ 0--O contr 0--0--0 bat_shunt 0--0--0 alt_shunt 0--0 anl30 0--0 alt
> | |
> | |
> xfeed main
> cont & bus
> starter
How would the changes give you any advantage? Panel
mounted gages are primarily diagnostic instruments. When
things are working well, they give no meaningful information.
Given the changes you propose, how will they help you
(1) know something isn't working and (2) deduce
what needs to be fixed?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland & Wilma Carson <rowil(at)clara.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
>I did manage to talk the president out of one of the last of the 6"
>shirt pocket K&E slide rules in captivity.
As we're severely off-topic anyway - anyone know any source for a
small circluar slide-rule (not an E6B, just a regular log-log
sliderule)? I used to have one about 80mm dia that came "free" from
Time-Life but it somehow got overheated and is no longer truly
circular. I love it for checking relative prices - much faster and
more unobtrusive than any of my favourite RPN calculators (just
tossing that in to start another red herring :-)).
Incidentally, there are good books written about the history of slide
rules and I guess they are read by collectors of the same - so there
is likely a market - don't throw out any you have.
regards
Rowland
PS I'm in England if you're recommending circular slide-rule suppliers
| PFA 16532 EAA 168386 Young Eagles Flight Leader 017623
| Europa builder #435 G-ROWI e-mail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
In a message dated 10/19/2002 2:40:40 AM Central Standard Time,
rowil(at)clara.net writes:
> As we're severely off-topic anyway - anyone know any source for a
> small circluar slide-rule (not an E6B, just a regular log-log
> sliderule)? I used to have one about 80mm dia that came "free" from
> Time-Life but it somehow got overheated and is no longer truly
> circular. I love it for checking relative prices - much faster and
> more unobtrusive than any of my favourite RPN calculators (just
> tossing that in to start another red herring :-)).
>
Good Morning Rowland,
Jeppesen Sanderson makes one that is the size you want and was designed by
retired UAL captain Ray Lahr.
He designed it primarily to replace the large E6B style aviation calculators.
While it is primarily oriented toward aviation use, it should be more than
adequate for the use you describe.
The calculator is available in three sizes. The smallest will fit easily in
the breast pocket of any mens dress shirt. Works great for young people with
excellent vision.
The next larger size is the one that Ray designed to fit in the shirt pocket
of the double pocket military style shirt favored by airline pilots of the
fifties.
Jepp also makes a larger one that is favored by us old folks.
I carried one of the smaller ones in my pocket as a normal part of my dress
for thirty years or more, not just when flying, but all of the time.
For the last twenty years or so, I have switched to the one that is easier to
read with my failing vision. I keep one in the Bonanza and another on my
desk.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
PS United Air Lines and American Airlines both had proprietary calculators
that were issued by those respective airlines. Ray Lahr was a young DC-3
copilot and decided he could design a much better one that would not only be
smaller and easier to carry, but had a broader capability.
Works great!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Predicting the Future
>
> As we're severely off-topic anyway - anyone know any source for a
> small circluar slide-rule (not an E6B, just a regular log-log
> sliderule)? I used to have one about 80mm dia that came "free" from
> Time-Life but it somehow got overheated and is no longer truly
> circular. I love it for checking relative prices - much faster and
> more unobtrusive than any of my favourite RPN calculators (just
> tossing that in to start another red herring :-)).
> PS I'm in England if you're recommending circular slide-rule suppliers
RPN? Way to go!
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circular Slide Rules |
>
>
>
> >I did manage to talk the president out of one of the last of the 6"
> >shirt pocket K&E slide rules in captivity.
>
>As we're severely off-topic anyway - anyone know any source for a
>small circluar slide-rule (not an E6B, just a regular log-log
>sliderule)? I used to have one about 80mm dia that came "free" from
>Time-Life but it somehow got overheated and is no longer truly
>circular. I love it for checking relative prices - much faster and
>more unobtrusive than any of my favourite RPN calculators (just
>tossing that in to start another red herring :-)).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=723963498
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=724622465
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=724766111
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=724585778
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System architecture |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
>get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume you
>strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
>s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I know
>it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
>cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
>relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays, but
>in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
>few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
>it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
>for a good relay.
Review chapter 17 and then revisit why you want/need
an "avionics relay" and tell us what it does for you.
What facts in the physics of how the SFS EFIS system is
built that suggest a need for pampering by the pilot . . .
or any other system you intend to install.
Are you building a 14 or 28v airplane? Some of the currents
you've cited are too low for 14v.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Predicting the Future |
RPN - Reverse Polish Notation so named for the Polish gentleman that
invented it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Predicting the Future
>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Predicting the Future
>
>
>
> >
> > As we're severely off-topic anyway - anyone know any source for a
> > small circluar slide-rule (not an E6B, just a regular log-log
> > sliderule)? I used to have one about 80mm dia that came "free" from
> > Time-Life but it somehow got overheated and is no longer truly
> > circular. I love it for checking relative prices - much faster and
> > more unobtrusive than any of my favourite RPN calculators (just
> > tossing that in to start another red herring :-)).
> > PS I'm in England if you're recommending circular slide-rule suppliers
>
> RPN? Way to go!
>
> Gordon Comfort
> N363GC
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Architecture and load analysis studies |
>
>
>Wow, what a mess that turned out, let me try again:
Okay, this is a good itemized list of what things
draw. Now you need to organize these loads into
the various phases of flight to deduce the sizes
of alternators and batteries needed to support
the loads.
Electrical Load Analysis is an important first
step in electrical system planning on any project,
spam-can or OBAM. It not only determines what
sizes of energy generation and storage devices
you need, but it forces you to make decisions
about how the system will be operated in various
situations and in particular, how you plan to
tolerate failures in the "no sweat" mode.
Download this .pdf file.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf
those of you who are using AutoCAD or compatible
program to generate your documentation can
also download:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.dwg
The first page of the .pdf file shows an exemplar
load analysis for a Europa project sent to me
by a reader some months ago. You can see how
electrical loads were defined for the various
phases of flight. The second page of the .pdf
file is a blank form for the generation of your
own load analysis. Use a separate page for
each bus. You will need up to 2-4 pages for
Main Bus, Aux Bus, Main Battery Bus, Aux
Batery Bus, and/or E-bus.
Fill in values for each load using only
the continuous operating load with transient
loads being written as an interesting but
not terribly significant note as the
denominator of a fraction. For example,
your nav/com load might be entered as
0.7/5.3 where 700 mA is the continuous
running load in receive while the device
peaks at 5.3 amps during transmit.
Some of you have shared beginnings of this
kind of data in spread sheet format. This
works too.
Which ever format you choose to use, this
exercise is an important step in the planning
stages of your project.
Note that the Europa project (Rotax 914)
had running loads that far exceeded the output
of the Rotax's 18A alternator. Hence the need
to install the 40A second alternator. With
addition of second alternator, the All-electric
Airplane on a Budget architecture became
a no-brainer decision. This airplane ended
up with a B&C 40A machine + a very robust
18A PM alternator built into the engine.
A very attractive combination.
more to come . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Replacing T20 Drive 8X32 Screws |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Larry Bowen"
"Is Micro Fastener contacting previous customers about the T20 screws, or
do I have to call them? Thanks for your efforts in this regard. Do not
archive-
Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com"
10/19/2002
Hello Larry and Others, John is in the process of shipping the T15 drive 8X32
replacement screws to everyone that received the T20 drive screws. If you
haven't received your replacement screws within a week I recommend that you
contact John.
I appreciate your kind words. The person who really deserves the thanks is
John Fleisher at Micro Fasteners who invested his time and money in this
effort even though he had no previous connection to our hobby. The best way
to thank John, in my opinion, is to pass the word among fellow builders so
that all may be aware of the availability of these unique screws (and also
some very useful hex socket drive screws that Micro Fasteners carries).
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
While we're talking about loads, I have a dumb question about my multimeter
(from B&C).
This may be pretty basic, so bare with me. So far, all I've been able to use
it for is testing continuity. Last night I wanted to see which was which of
two resitors, a 1k and a 470 ohm.
I tested each and had no clue what the readings meant. I've since identified
the resitors by looking at the packet.
Here's the readings:
No connection:
200 ohm scale: 62.8
2k ohm scale: .423
20k ohm scale: 1.26
470 ohm resistor
200 ohm scale: 61.6
2k ohm scale: .33
20k ohm scale: .33
1k resistor
200 ohm scale: 62.2
2k ohm scale: .398
20k ohm scale: .55
Direct short
200 ohm scale: 0
2k ohm scale: 0
20k ohm scale: .2
I must have missed this session in the electronics course.
Can someone explain the above to me?
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ed and Shannon's Lancair system planning |
MAIN POWER DISTRIBUTION BUS:
Attitude indicator either as primary or backup. Looking at the EFIS/Lite
from BMA which has had better performance than what I have heard about the
EFIS/ONE.
Nav lights
Strobe
Taxi light left
Landing light
Autopilot (this might go on aux bus)
Electric Flaps
Pitot heat
AOA system (how much current? Perhaps would live well on aux bus)
Cabin Fan
GNS-530 (Since this has on/off switch, put on aux bus)
GTX-327 (ditto)
AUX POWER DISTRIBUTION:
Taxi light - right (I think I'd run all exterior lighting
from the main bus)
Yaw trim
Pitch trim
Roll trim
Turn coordinator
Directional Gyro- possible a future BMA HSI
(if your en-route power generation capabilities
with main alternator out call for shedding some
flight instrument loads, I'd make it the DG and
leave the A.H. on the aux bus. You get excellent
course info from GPS which makes the DG the most
redundant and least needed of flight instruments)
GNS-430
engine gauge- Electronics International- Oil/Temp
MAP
RPM
Ultimate Bar Graph
FP-5L, fuel flow/pressure
(again, let's get a load analysis based on
your aux alternator capability. BTW, for
operation during main alternator failure,
you can use ALL the aux alternator capability.
The head-room rule for having left over power
to recharge battery doesn't apply. It may
be that some if not all engine instrumentation
could be on the main bus for en-route ops.
Once you've set up for cruise, the engine
instruments don't do much for you.
When it's time to descend and prepare for
landing, you should have two fully charged
batteries waiting in the wings to let you
run lots of main-bus stuff during the approach
phase.
MAIN BATTERY BUS:
Amp/Volt gauge
Post lighting (with dual alternator/dual battery
all instrument lighting can go on the aux bus -
depending on load analysis for aux alternator).
Fuel boost pump (high)
* Ignition #1
Comm panel (this can go on the aux bus)
Cabin lighting (consider putting timer on this)
Cargo Compartment light (ditto)
AUX BATTERY BUS:
Clock
Hobbs Meter
* Ignition #2
Fuel boost Pump (low)
Power Receptacle for Hand Held NAV/COM
* Ignition system: I have always have seen MAGS, I'll be honest
with you, I don't know much about this other than what is in cars. Have
read a lot of past mail about this. My IO-520"D" engine is coming with a
new set of MAGS and harness. Should I plan on discarding this? Go with one
side on EI or go for both EI? If I stay with MAGS, is it to much trouble to
go to EI later?
Use toggle or rocker switches for ignition systems. These switches readily
wire up to accommodate either mags or electronic ignition. You won't
get any
worthwhile credit for mags if you order the engine without them. Further,
90% of your performance improvement comes with addition of the first
electronic ignition. Sooooo . . . if it were my airplane, I'd take
one mag off, bag it up with desiccant and put it on the shelf.
Put on one electronic ignition. When the first mag dies, put the
saved on on. When the second mag dies, replace it with a second
electronic ignition.
Let's see . . . we've got several designs going at one time
here. Shannon sent me a first pass at his loads analysis
in Excel . . . how about we work his system in detail and
relax on the others for a bit.
Shannon, you sent me some drawings that showed some new
busses with disconnect switches/relays and some re-arrangements
for contactors. If we're going to use your files
as a baseline for the on-list demonstration, we need to
get the bus-structures and then add more columns to your
Excel file to flesh out the load analysis. A question
to be resolved is defining the physics behind your decision
for altering the Figure Z-14 architecture.
If both batteries go in the back, then each battery's
contactor and distribution bus would be mounted adjacent
to its respective battery. The crossfeed contactor goes on
the firewall to provide a means for splitting the battery
feeds to the main and aux busses and establishing feedpoints
via ANL current limiters to each alternator. The added limiters
are not necessary as shown but would be useful for
protecting the hydraulic pump and A/C compressor
feeds.
I'm not suggesting that you need to wire your airplane
MY way if you really want to do it different . . . but
we'll have to use someone else's airplane as the on-list
design study if you believe you have a basis for
marching to a different drummer.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Architecture and load analysis studies |
I'm having difficulty downloading the file
http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.dwg When I try to download, it says
the the file doesn't exist. I downloaded the pdf file with no trouble. Has
anyone had better luck with this file?
Tom Saccio
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Architecture and load analysis studies |
From: TSaccio(at)aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:36:24 EDT
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Architecture and load analysis studies
I'm having difficulty downloading the file
http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.dwg When I try to download, it says
the the file doesn't exist. I downloaded the pdf file with no trouble. Has
anyone had better luck with this file?
Tom Saccio
I'm having difficulty downloading the file http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.dwg When I try to download, it says the the file doesn't exist. I downloaded the pdf file with no trouble. Has anyone had better luck with this file?
Tom Saccio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Multimeter Problems |
>
>While we're talking about loads, I have a dumb question about my multimeter
>(from B&C).
>This may be pretty basic, so bare with me. So far, all I've been able to use
>it for is testing continuity. Last night I wanted to see which was which of
>two resitors, a 1k and a 470 ohm.
>I tested each and had no clue what the readings meant. I've since identified
>the resitors by looking at the packet.
>
>Here's the readings:
>
>No connection:
>200 ohm scale: 62.8
>2k ohm scale: .423
>20k ohm scale: 1.26
sounds like your meter is broke. If you would
be so kind as to return it to me at
Bob Nuckolls
6936 Bainbridge Road
Wichita, KS 67226
I'll check it out and then make arrangements
to get it replaced.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Internally Regulated Alternator Adjustment? |
>
>Answering my own question here: apparently my Hitachi (unknown model
>nr.) internally regulated alternator requires battery voltage on its "S"
>terminal to regulate at 14.2 volts. With no connection to "S", its
>output rises to 15 volts. Perhaps the "S" means "sense". It certainly
>doesn't mean "start" in the case of this alternator.
This usually means "Switch" . . . other alternators will
use "IGN" on the terminal with the same function. Sorry
I missed asking you how you had connected leads to the
back of the alternator when this thread started. I just
assumed you had a diagram describing how to use the
alternator.
The reason the output voltage jumps up should the
alternator get started is because there is a one-diode
drop in an internal connection between b-lead and the
"S" terminal. The regulator thinks it's seeing bus
voltage when in fact, there's a .7 volt error that
causes the regulator to boost alternator output by
that amount.
>For alternator starting, I found that some current must be injected into
>the "L" terminal. With no connection there, my alternator wouldn't come
>on line below 2400 (engine) RPM. In my installation, I feed it from the
>same source that feeds the "S" connection but through a 20-ohm resistor.
> "L" stands for "lamp" terminal -- the idiot light on the dash. In some
>70s automotive designs, the lamp supplied the alternator starting
>current and when the lamp burned out the alternator wouldn't start
>(except by residual magnetism).
Correct. In many early automotive installations, should
the alternator warning light bulb burn out, the alternator
wouldn't start up. This was a sort of double-whammy against
the car owner 'cause he not only lost indication of a failed
alternator, the failure of the 50-cent lamp might force
failure of the alternator as well.
Later cars added a resistor across the bulb to prevent lamp
failure from killing the alternator too. 20-ohms is a bit
low. During the time that your bus is hot but the alternator
is not turning, circuitry inside the regulator is pulling
down on that 20 ohm resistor as if it were a lamp. 20 ohms
on 12v produces 600 mA of current on a lamp driver transistor
sized for perhaps a 100-200 mA lamp.
This may not be a bid deal for the transistor but I think
you'll find that the alternator comes on line nicely with
a 50-75 ohm resistor as well and would certainly reduce
risk of overheating the regulator's lamp driver transistor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Architecture and load analysis studies |
>
>
>From: TSaccio(at)aol.com
>Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:36:24 EDT
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Architecture and load analysis studies
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>I'm having difficulty downloading the file
>http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.dwg When I try to download, it says
>the the file doesn't exist. I downloaded the pdf file with no trouble. Has
>anyone had better luck with this file?
Do you have AutoCAD or some other program capable
of editing AutoCAD drawings? If so, RIGHT-click the
link and then tell your browser where to store the
drawing on your hard drive. THEN you'll be able
to open and edit the drawing.
It's the original drawing that generated page 2 of
the .pdf file and useful only to those who have
CAD capabilities.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Multimeter Problems |
> sounds like your meter is broke. If you would
> be so kind as to return it to me at
Ahha!. And I thought it was me. What a relief!
I'll mail it next week. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Some airplanes were never ment to fly . . . |
Just got this note from a friend of mine who was
inadvertently sucked into helping resolve a few
assembly issues on an amateur built airplane.
Seems the builder was offered one of our OV
modules but a supposedly learned friend decided
he knew how it was supposed to work without
reading the instructions.
After the alternator ran away and smoked some
electro-whizzies in spite of OV "protection",
my friend finds himself paddling upstream in
the rapids of ignorance with a very short paddle . . .
>The builder is making a GlassStar which is now in flyable condition. Big
>engine. His "friend" helped him rig the throttle cable. At first turn
>over of the engine, it went to full power, ~2900 rpm on a 3 blade
>prop. Pulling the throttle all the way out reduced the rpm about 300. I
>pointed out the problem, a lever "mechanical advantage" on the carb where
>the cable connects. Limited delta length of the "wire", I suggested move
>the attach point further in toward the carb to get greater "range". There
>was an argument with the "friend".
>
>A friend of mine spent some time with the builder. His "friend" had
>rigged the ailerons so that the "cross over" cable was wound around the
>"outgoing" cable, in each wing, two turns each side. Further, the flaps
>cable was wound around that. Somehow, it passed FAA inspection that
>way. You could put the stick anywhere you wanted, and it would stay
>there, with a real high "break loose" force. All of that got straightened
>out over 3 days of restringing by my friend.
>
>I was called in to look at the ELT installation. There was a dashboard
>remote switch of the "pull and toggle" variety. Can't change the position
>unless you pull out on the "flipper" - prevents accidental actuation on
>the remote dashboard switch. It was working in the ON-ON method. Pulled
>the switch and noticed that a terminal had been pulled out of the switch
>on the wiring side under the dash. Missing a terminal, it was just wired,
>for that wire, to the other side (throw). The builder's "friend" had
>checked it out for him, and rewired it; the builder said. I rewired the
>switch, so there was an OFF, regardless of the ELT "impact switch", and an
>ON, regardless of the ELT "impact switch", as well as the center "what
>ever the ELT impact switch wants".
>
>The builder has your files, which I gave him on a disk, my schematic, and
>your phone number and your e-mail address. He said that he gave them all
>to his "friend", and that the "friend" rewired your OV protection
>circuit. He said that there is now a third contactor. He didn't want me
>to look at it, even though I volunteered. He said that he isn't going to
>contact you.?!
>
>I have told my friend what I saw, he related the story of the re-rigging
>of the flight controls, and suggested that we both stop helping this
>fellow, because there might be implications during an inquiry that is
>likely in the future.
I was just going to suggest that approach. Some airplanes
were just not meant to fly and this may indeed be one of
them. I think I'd distance myself as far as possible from
this accident looking for someplace to happen . . .
>I really have to stop helping people.
Don't let this one event discourage you. The only
thing sadder than good information not shared is
good information being ignored. The bell-curve is
a fact of nature . . . SOMEBODY has a natural
obligation to occupy the lowliest places on the curve.
Fortunately most are eliminated from the gene-pool
at minimum risk to others.
I think it was Igor Sikorsky who was credited with
the following observation: "Most early designers
of airplanes were also the test pilots. This had
the beneficial effect of eliminating bad designers".
>Meanwhile, the abstract of my next paper (European GNSS 2003 at Graz
>Austria) is on the web at
>http://www.gtwn.net/~keith.peshak/GNSS2003.htm I sent a copy to the new
>FAA Administrator and the Transportation Secretary. I guess I am getting
>a little frustrated.
Understand. I'm just wrapping up a 4-year effort trying
to fix a $10 problem in a pitch trim actuator that
has cost us 10-15 million dollars in warranty claims
and untold damage in customer dissatisfaction.
The problem has gone on for so long and cost so much
money that nobody wants to admit that there was ever
a simple solution. Hence, we're about to embark on
a development program for a fine new actuator
that will cost twice as much (but last the lifetime
of the airplane), needs perhaps a $million$
more in development costs and will take two years to get
to the field. In the mean time, customers who bought
our airplanes in good faith are still getting screwed.
When you're dealing with professional bureaucrats,
consumer benefits and faith in the logical application
of physics are the smallest of driving forces
on their considerations. Doesn't matter if it's
government or business.
All we can do is be good engineers and don't
rewrite any laws of physics. If our audience
is high enough on the bell curve to perceive
the value of what we do, great. You may have to
bang on the bell a whole lot before you get
the attention of folks in top 10% of the curve.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Architecture and load analysis studies |
Thanks Bob I tried what you said and it worked. I used the Cad program I got
from you.
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Essential Bus (always a good topic) |
Bob,
What am I missing? Why not use another diode to feed the essential bus instead
of having the E-Bus Alternate Feed Switch?
Thanks,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Good" <chrisjgood(at)lycos.com> |
| Subject: | Re: T Recess Screws |
> 10/18/2002
>
> Hello Fellow Builders, Stainless steel, flat head, 100 degree > countersink,
> six lobe recess drive*, screws are now available in the following > sizes with
> Micro Fastener catalog numbers in ( ).
...
'OC',
Thanks for taking the lead on the torx screw issue. I purchased some of the first
batch of #8's from Micro Fasteners, & expect to use some of the other sizes
also.
What do you use for pan head replacements? I'd like to use torx, but McMaster
Carr only has zinc plated pan head torx, or black oxide torx plus. Have you been
able to find cadmium plated, which I believe minimizes dissimilar metal corrosion
problems with aluminum?
Regards,
Chris Good.
West Bend, WI
RV-6A, flying.
--
Get 250 full-color business cards FREE right now!
http://businesscards.lycos.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus (always a good topic) |
>
>Bob,
>
>What am I missing? Why not use another diode to feed the essential bus
>instead of having the E-Bus Alternate Feed Switch?
How would you turn the e-bus off? The alternate feed comes
from an always hot battery feed. Also, how would you pre-flight
the independent pathways if you didn't have a way to enable
them separate from each other?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
The term "grid" refers to my bank of contactors that is mounted near the
batteries. This refers specifically to the 2 battery contactors, and
the crossfeed contactor. In my system, I plan 3 "grids": 1 in the aft
fuselage for the hydraulic pump with up and done contactors, one behind
the seat with the 2 battery and 1 crossfeed contactor, and 1 on the
firewall with the starter contactor and avionics relays (if necessary).
The only difference between my plan and your z14 is the depiction of the
switches, and possibly the location of the shunts, and I plan on having
an avionics bus (due to SFS EFIS). I am having Lancair build my panel,
and they, by standard, use the split bat/alt switch, so that is one
difference. I plan to have the avionics switches/relays (against your
common practice, I know) for the SFS EFIS computers, the xbow AHRS, and
the Merlin datalink...none of which have on/off switches so I can have
them off during starting. The other difference was I plan to put dual
shunts on each bus, one from the battery side, and one from the
alternator side, so I can better see what is occurring in the charging
system. This leads into your last question.
The reason for my question about the shunts is due to the small voltage
drop across them. In your depiction, the shunt is between the starter
contactor and the battery ground. Therefore, when the motor is being
started, the shunt in another voltage drop that we have to deal with. I
realize it is small, but it appears to me that moving it to where I plan
(after the starter contactor) would get rid of this voltage drop as seen
by the starter, and have no other ill effects.
The purpose of having the two shunts is self-explanatory I assume. If I
pull the feed for the buss off from in between the two shunts, one shunt
will indicate what is coming from the battery (or going to), and the
other will indicate what is coming from the alt. This should give a
quick indication of whether an alt has failed, or a battery is no longer
up to the task.
None of this is set in stone at all. I am new to all of this and am
just in the planning stage. I'm trying to be as thorough as possible in
my planning though, as you suggest in your book. I started with a
circuit listing and amp draw in excel. I arranged these on the busses
as required, per your suggestions. Then I took your z14 and massaged it
for my setup and came up with a basic wiring schematic. I made a couple
of changes (switches per Lancair, and shunts), namely the position of
the shunts. Before I build the "grids" I would like to discuss it and
see if I'm missing something.
(BTW, Bob, I sent directly to you an email with 3 attachments, 1) excel
circuit list 2) acad modified z14 schematic 3) acad scale drawing of
airplane with the beginning of the wires being run in it......please
review and the above might make more sense)
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: z14
>
>
>Bob, (thought this would be simple answers, so it must not have gone
>through the first time I sent it)
>
>I'm finishing the details of my electrical system design for my Lancair
>Legacy, working on the power grid/contactors right now. To refresh
you,
>it is a dual alt/bat sys, similar to your depiction in z14. dual 17ah
>bats will be behind the seat with the bat and crossfeed contactors
there
>on a power grid, and there will be a starter (and avionics) power grid
>on the firewall, and there will be a final contactor bank in the aft
>fuselage where the hyd pump and air conditioning is. I have a couple
of
>questions though:
I'm not understanding your used of the term "grid" . . . when
you say "similar" to Z-14, how is it to be different and why?
>1) why is the wire from the starter contactor to the starter shown as
>2awg, while the wire feeding it from the batteries is only 4awg.
>Shouldn't the wire from the bat to starter contactor also be 2awg,
>especially in a situation like this where there is 7-10 feet between
the
>contactors?
The power distribution diagrams are generalizations intended
to depict architecture. If your battery(ies) are a long way
from the engine, cranking current conductors would be 2AWG.
If the battery(ies) are close, 4AWG will suffice.
>2) is there any reason I can't move the shunt to the other side of the
>contactor to measure amp draw on the bat? Likewise, I will pull the
>crossfeed and starter feed off before the shunt so there is no drop on
>it and to eliminate any problems there. If this doesn't make sense, I
>can include a drawing. Heres basically what I have in mind:
>
>B+ 0--O contr 0--0--0 bat_shunt 0--0--0 alt_shunt 0--0 anl30 0--0 alt
> | |
> | |
> xfeed main
> cont & bus
> starter
How would the changes give you any advantage? Panel
mounted gages are primarily diagnostic instruments. When
things are working well, they give no meaningful information.
Given the changes you propose, how will they help you
(1) know something isn't working and (2) deduce
what needs to be fixed?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System architecture |
I will re-read 17 and get back to you. My initial thoughts are that the
SFS as well as the Xbow AHRS and the Merlin Datalink system all have
computers in them. The SFS runs on a PC platform running NT I believe.
Therefore, low voltage dropouts causing the SFS to re-boot in mid stream
of the boot-up cycle does not seem like a good idea to me (or to the
people at Lancair). We all know how finicky pc's with MS OS's on them
can be, especially during boot-up. I just don't see the need to risk
it. Also, the Xbow behaves similarly from my understanding, where it
has to "boot-up" and takes some time to "align" itself or
whatever.....re-booting it during this time doesn't seem like a good
idea either. Same goes with the Merlin. If these units had power
switches on them, I would totally agree, and would never even consider
an avionics relay/switch....I would just turn them off. However, they
don't, so I can't, so I feel it is warranted. Do you disagree? I'd
love nothing else than to have the 2 switch spots open back up on my
already stuffed panel :)
I'm building a 14v plane. Which currents are you concerned with. Some
of them were my best guesses. Some of them were obtained from a
reference sheet of actual amp draws provided by Brent Regan. If Brents
plane is a 28v plane, then I will need to double all the values I got
from him. Do you know if his plane is? I hate to bother him with such
a trivial question in light of the events last week...I'm sure he has
enough to deal with.
Thanks for the help. Your expertise and guidance is appreciated more
than you realize.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: System architecture
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Working on the layout of my power grids, and was wondering if I could
>get some dimensions on the s701 and s702 contactors? Also, I assume
you
>strongly suggest using the s702 for the starter versus using another
>s701? Last, how would the s701 be suited for an avionics relay...I
know
>it would be way overrated, but I'm wondering about its robustness to
>cycles, compared to your s704 relay or another bosch automotive style
>relay. I know you strongly discourage avionic switches and relays, but
>in my case I feel its warranted with the SFS EFIS system, as well as a
>few other components that don't have power switches....therefore, with
>it warranted, I want it to be as failproof as possible, so I'm looking
>for a good relay.
Review chapter 17 and then revisit why you want/need
an "avionics relay" and tell us what it does for you.
What facts in the physics of how the SFS EFIS system is
built that suggest a need for pampering by the pilot . . .
or any other system you intend to install.
Are you building a 14 or 28v airplane? Some of the currents
you've cited are too low for 14v.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Ed and Shannon's Lancair system planning |
Bob,
I'll gladly make the changes as needed. What I have done so far is just
a basic start, planning as much as possible before I start building.
Nothing is set in stone. I've used info from you, from Lancair, and
from other builders to arrive at what I have so far. I've tried to
combine the info and my understanding to build my own system....I didn't
want to bother you for every little detail. Obviously, I've made a few
mistakes, which I'm sure we'll hammer out here shortly :)
As far as my structure goes of the power system, I'm totally open to
ideas. I put the xfeed contactor with the batter contactors so I only
had to run one large 2awg wire to the front. However, after re-reading
your chapter on contactors and wiring, it appears that I could make some
changes and have fewer wires to run back to the batteries by putting the
crossfeed contactor on the firewall and running the alt feeds to the
starter contactor and xfeed contactor respectively. In this case, a
pair of 4awg feeds from the p+ and the e+ batteries, and a combined 2awg
ground would provide all the needed wiring (and do away with the 4 and 6
gauge feeds from the 70A and 20A alternators all the way to the back).
I would still have to run an 8awg wire back for the hyd and a/c systems
buss-bar, but this would probably be better. What do you think? With
the drawing I sent you, you can basically see where everything is in my
plane, and you can tell me where things should be.
Now, for the topic of the z14 re-design. I don't really think I've
changed anything, except for adding the split alt/bat switches,
moving/adding the shunts, and adding the avionics bus/switch/relay.
Please give me some pointers as to where to go next and what to do to
get my excel spreadsheet and drawings whipped into shape, and I'll do my
best to comply ASAP...for the benefit of myself and others.
As always, thanks.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ed and Shannon's Lancair system planning
MAIN POWER DISTRIBUTION BUS:
Attitude indicator either as primary or backup. Looking at the EFIS/Lite
from BMA which has had better performance than what I have heard about
the
EFIS/ONE.
Nav lights
Strobe
Taxi light left
Landing light
Autopilot (this might go on aux bus)
Electric Flaps
Pitot heat
AOA system (how much current? Perhaps would live well on aux
bus)
Cabin Fan
GNS-530 (Since this has on/off switch, put on aux bus)
GTX-327 (ditto)
AUX POWER DISTRIBUTION:
Taxi light - right (I think I'd run all exterior lighting
from the main bus)
Yaw trim
Pitch trim
Roll trim
Turn coordinator
Directional Gyro- possible a future BMA HSI
(if your en-route power generation capabilities
with main alternator out call for shedding some
flight instrument loads, I'd make it the DG and
leave the A.H. on the aux bus. You get excellent
course info from GPS which makes the DG the most
redundant and least needed of flight instruments)
GNS-430
engine gauge- Electronics International- Oil/Temp
MAP
RPM
Ultimate Bar Graph
FP-5L, fuel flow/pressure
(again, let's get a load analysis based on
your aux alternator capability. BTW, for
operation during main alternator failure,
you can use ALL the aux alternator capability.
The head-room rule for having left over power
to recharge battery doesn't apply. It may
be that some if not all engine instrumentation
could be on the main bus for en-route ops.
Once you've set up for cruise, the engine
instruments don't do much for you.
When it's time to descend and prepare for
landing, you should have two fully charged
batteries waiting in the wings to let you
run lots of main-bus stuff during the approach
phase.
MAIN BATTERY BUS:
Amp/Volt gauge
Post lighting (with dual alternator/dual battery
all instrument lighting can go on the aux bus -
depending on load analysis for aux alternator).
Fuel boost pump (high)
* Ignition #1
Comm panel (this can go on the aux bus)
Cabin lighting (consider putting timer on this)
Cargo Compartment light (ditto)
AUX BATTERY BUS:
Clock
Hobbs Meter
* Ignition #2
Fuel boost Pump (low)
Power Receptacle for Hand Held NAV/COM
* Ignition system: I have always have seen MAGS, I'll be honest
with you, I don't know much about this other than what is in cars. Have
read a lot of past mail about this. My IO-520"D" engine is coming with a
new set of MAGS and harness. Should I plan on discarding this? Go with
one
side on EI or go for both EI? If I stay with MAGS, is it to much trouble
to
go to EI later?
Use toggle or rocker switches for ignition systems. These switches
readily
wire up to accommodate either mags or electronic ignition. You
won't
get any
worthwhile credit for mags if you order the engine without them.
Further,
90% of your performance improvement comes with addition of the
first
electronic ignition. Sooooo . . . if it were my airplane, I'd take
one mag off, bag it up with desiccant and put it on the shelf.
Put on one electronic ignition. When the first mag dies, put the
saved on on. When the second mag dies, replace it with a second
electronic ignition.
Let's see . . . we've got several designs going at one time
here. Shannon sent me a first pass at his loads analysis
in Excel . . . how about we work his system in detail and
relax on the others for a bit.
Shannon, you sent me some drawings that showed some new
busses with disconnect switches/relays and some re-arrangements
for contactors. If we're going to use your files
as a baseline for the on-list demonstration, we need to
get the bus-structures and then add more columns to your
Excel file to flesh out the load analysis. A question
to be resolved is defining the physics behind your decision
for altering the Figure Z-14 architecture.
If both batteries go in the back, then each battery's
contactor and distribution bus would be mounted adjacent
to its respective battery. The crossfeed contactor goes on
the firewall to provide a means for splitting the battery
feeds to the main and aux busses and establishing feedpoints
via ANL current limiters to each alternator. The added limiters
are not necessary as shown but would be useful for
protecting the hydraulic pump and A/C compressor
feeds.
I'm not suggesting that you need to wire your airplane
MY way if you really want to do it different . . . but
we'll have to use someone else's airplane as the on-list
design study if you believe you have a basis for
marching to a different drummer.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Ed and Shannon's Lancair system planning |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'll gladly make the changes as needed. What I have done so far is just
>a basic start, planning as much as possible before I start building.
>Nothing is set in stone. I've used info from you, from Lancair, and
>from other builders to arrive at what I have so far. I've tried to
>combine the info and my understanding to build my own system....I didn't
>want to bother you for every little detail. Obviously, I've made a few
>mistakes, which I'm sure we'll hammer out here shortly :)
Please understand what were about here . . . my intent is not
to embarrass you or anyone else on the list. I view these
exercises as excellent learning tools both for the builders
who's airplanes we are discussing -and- those who are
listening in and considering their own projects as we go along.
It's pretty easy to treat all that's been done before us
as a Wall-Mart of choices . . . a huge box of Tinker-Toys
from which we can build a new system.
Many builders I've worked with over the past 15 years
have approached their electrical system configuration
task with the mind-set that a "sprinkling of everything"
is the best way to make sure all the bases are covered.
All they've got to go on is what they've seen in other
airplanes and read about in the dark-n-stormy-night
stories.
If there are any "mistakes" made, they're generally founded
in a lack of understanding of details how we want the system
to work and what can be gleaned from lessons-learned by
observing and ANALYZING the experience of others.
It's hard to break the mind-set of traditional airplane-
think especially when fears of the unknown jump in
to take the place of understanding.
>As far as my structure goes of the power system, I'm totally open to
>ideas. I put the xfeed contactor with the batter contactors so I only
>had to run one large 2awg wire to the front. However, after re-reading
>your chapter on contactors and wiring, it appears that I could make some
>changes and have fewer wires to run back to the batteries by putting the
>crossfeed contactor on the firewall and running the alt feeds to the
>starter contactor and xfeed contactor respectively. In this case, a
>pair of 4awg feeds from the p+ and the e+ batteries, and a combined 2awg
>ground would provide all the needed wiring (and do away with the 4 and 6
>gauge feeds from the 70A and 20A alternators all the way to the back).
>I would still have to run an 8awg wire back for the hyd and a/c systems
>buss-bar, but this would probably be better. What do you think? With
>the drawing I sent you, you can basically see where everything is in my
>plane, and you can tell me where things should be.
I could certainly TELL you where things should be but
I'd rather discuss how things could be and have you
and others arrive at a logical conclusion of your
own as to how they SHOULD be.
>Now, for the topic of the z14 re-design. I don't really think I've
>changed anything, except for adding the split alt/bat switches,
>moving/adding the shunts, and adding the avionics bus/switch/relay.
Okay. You've made a conscious decision to make changes.
What is the rational for your suggestions? How do they
improve the value of the finished system?
>Please give me some pointers as to where to go next and what to do to
>get my excel spreadsheet and drawings whipped into shape, and I'll do my
>best to comply ASAP...for the benefit of myself and others.
Let's add some columns to your spread sheet with headers
like those on the .pdf file I published for load analysis.
One of the first mistakes folks make when they add up
all the numbers is based on the notion that there are
normal flight conditions where EVERYTHING is turned on
and drawing max load at the same time which is never
true.
There are a lot of airplanes flying around out there with
a too-big alternator, too-big battery and architectures
that will lead them up a one-way, dead-end canyon
like the "Sparks in the Dark" story I related in
Chapter 17.
I'm picking on you because you were the first one
to share a spread-sheet version of your deliberations.
I gotta warn you all folks, he who lets it be known
that he has some skill with advanced thinking and
planning tools is likely to find himself in the
spotlight with our friend Shannon.
>As always, thanks.
. . . and thank YOU sir for volunteering to stand
in the bright lights. This is going to be a good
exercise for us all. One of chapters that is yet
to be added to the 'Connection deals with load
analysis and system architecture planning. My
participation in this activity is good review for
getting started on that new chapter.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>The term "grid" refers to my bank of contactors that is mounted near the
>batteries. This refers specifically to the 2 battery contactors, and
>the crossfeed contactor. In my system, I plan 3 "grids": 1 in the aft
>fuselage for the hydraulic pump with up and done contactors, one behind
>the seat with the 2 battery and 1 crossfeed contactor, and 1 on the
>firewall with the starter contactor and avionics relays (if necessary).
I think you'll find this a good thing to do . . . but let's
whack the load analysis first and then get to discussions
on best physical locations for things.
>The only difference between my plan and your z14 is the depiction of the
>switches, and possibly the location of the shunts, and I plan on having
>an avionics bus (due to SFS EFIS). I am having Lancair build my panel,
>and they, by standard, use the split bat/alt switch, so that is one
>difference. I plan to have the avionics switches/relays (against your
>common practice, I know) for the SFS EFIS computers, the xbow AHRS, and
>the Merlin datalink...none of which have on/off switches so I can have
>them off during starting. The other difference was I plan to put dual
>shunts on each bus, one from the battery side, and one from the
>alternator side, so I can better see what is occurring in the charging
>system. This leads into your last question.
>
>The reason for my question about the shunts is due to the small voltage
>drop across them. In your depiction, the shunt is between the starter
>contactor and the battery ground. Therefore, when the motor is being
>started, the shunt in another voltage drop that we have to deal with. I
>realize it is small, but it appears to me that moving it to where I plan
>(after the starter contactor) would get rid of this voltage drop as seen
>by the starter, and have no other ill effects.
What drawing are you looking at? In the chapter on electrical
system instrumentation (written about 10 years ago) I shown
a shunt option that put it right in a battery lead so that
the builder could use the classic -0+ reading battery ammeter.
In more recent times, I've decided that this style of ammeter
doesn't tell us anything we cannot deduce from other combinations
and putting a shunt in series with a starter is NOT a good idea
anyhow.
In all of the power distribution diagrams, I show shunts only
as LOADMETERs to read the present loading of each alternator
and starter current does not flow through this shunt.
>The purpose of having the two shunts is self-explanatory I assume. If I
>pull the feed for the buss off from in between the two shunts, one shunt
>will indicate what is coming from the battery (or going to), and the
>other will indicate what is coming from the alt. This should give a
>quick indication of whether an alt has failed, or a battery is no longer
>up to the task.
I think one shunt in each alternator b-lead would suffice. How would
you use the information made available by any more shunts?
>None of this is set in stone at all. I am new to all of this and am
>just in the planning stage. I'm trying to be as thorough as possible in
>my planning though, as you suggest in your book. I started with a
>circuit listing and amp draw in excel. I arranged these on the busses
>as required, per your suggestions. Then I took your z14 and massaged it
>for my setup and came up with a basic wiring schematic. I made a couple
>of changes (switches per Lancair, and shunts), namely the position of
>the shunts. Before I build the "grids" I would like to discuss it and
>see if I'm missing something.
Sure. Let's start with Z-14 and go through each proposed
modification to see how it adds value. I'm not saying that
things shouldn't be done to change this drawing but if it
IS changed, there should be a foundation in physics and
operating convenience for doing so.
>
>
>(BTW, Bob, I sent directly to you an email with 3 attachments, 1) excel
>circuit list 2) acad modified z14 schematic 3) acad scale drawing of
>airplane with the beginning of the wires being run in it......please
>review and the above might make more sense)
I got 'em. Let's expand the Excel file to assist in our load
analysis deliberations. When we've got that exercise 90% done,
we'll shift our focus to architecture and placement.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Ed and Shannon's Lancair system planning |
I just wanted to add a word of thanks, too, to all those who are sharing
their designs and thinking, and Bob for giving us all knowledge-based
assessment of them. I've got to go through this process, probably just after
Christmas, and I'm learning a huge amount about the process before I start.
I am grateful to everyone who is putting their designs up for Bob's expert
critique, and am relishing the ego-free-zone we have here. If only more of
the world was like it!
Now if only I could work out how to run an all-electric plane off that puny
Rotax alternator...
Regards,
Jeremy
Europa XS monowheel G-EZZA
Please, no need to archive!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Ed and Shannon's Lancair system planning
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'll gladly make the changes as needed. What I have done so far is just
>a basic start, planning as much as possible before I start building.
>Nothing is set in stone. I've used info from you, from Lancair, and
>from other builders to arrive at what I have so far. I've tried to
>combine the info and my understanding to build my own system....I didn't
>want to bother you for every little detail. Obviously, I've made a few
>mistakes, which I'm sure we'll hammer out here shortly :)
Please understand what were about here . . . my intent is not
to embarrass you or anyone else on the list. I view these
exercises as excellent learning tools both for the builders
who's airplanes we are discussing -and- those who are
listening in and considering their own projects as we go along.
It's pretty easy to treat all that's been done before us
as a Wall-Mart of choices . . . a huge box of Tinker-Toys
from which we can build a new system.
Many builders I've worked with over the past 15 years
have approached their electrical system configuration
task with the mind-set that a "sprinkling of everything"
is the best way to make sure all the bases are covered.
All they've got to go on is what they've seen in other
airplanes and read about in the dark-n-stormy-night
stories.
If there are any "mistakes" made, they're generally founded
in a lack of understanding of details how we want the system
to work and what can be gleaned from lessons-learned by
observing and ANALYZING the experience of others.
It's hard to break the mind-set of traditional airplane-
think especially when fears of the unknown jump in
to take the place of understanding.
>As far as my structure goes of the power system, I'm totally open to
>ideas. I put the xfeed contactor with the batter contactors so I only
>had to run one large 2awg wire to the front. However, after re-reading
>your chapter on contactors and wiring, it appears that I could make some
>changes and have fewer wires to run back to the batteries by putting the
>crossfeed contactor on the firewall and running the alt feeds to the
>starter contactor and xfeed contactor respectively. In this case, a
>pair of 4awg feeds from the p+ and the e+ batteries, and a combined 2awg
>ground would provide all the needed wiring (and do away with the 4 and 6
>gauge feeds from the 70A and 20A alternators all the way to the back).
>I would still have to run an 8awg wire back for the hyd and a/c systems
>buss-bar, but this would probably be better. What do you think? With
>the drawing I sent you, you can basically see where everything is in my
>plane, and you can tell me where things should be.
I could certainly TELL you where things should be but
I'd rather discuss how things could be and have you
and others arrive at a logical conclusion of your
own as to how they SHOULD be.
>Now, for the topic of the z14 re-design. I don't really think I've
>changed anything, except for adding the split alt/bat switches,
>moving/adding the shunts, and adding the avionics bus/switch/relay.
Okay. You've made a conscious decision to make changes.
What is the rational for your suggestions? How do they
improve the value of the finished system?
>Please give me some pointers as to where to go next and what to do to
>get my excel spreadsheet and drawings whipped into shape, and I'll do my
>best to comply ASAP...for the benefit of myself and others.
Let's add some columns to your spread sheet with headers
like those on the .pdf file I published for load analysis.
One of the first mistakes folks make when they add up
all the numbers is based on the notion that there are
normal flight conditions where EVERYTHING is turned on
and drawing max load at the same time which is never
true.
There are a lot of airplanes flying around out there with
a too-big alternator, too-big battery and architectures
that will lead them up a one-way, dead-end canyon
like the "Sparks in the Dark" story I related in
Chapter 17.
I'm picking on you because you were the first one
to share a spread-sheet version of your deliberations.
I gotta warn you all folks, he who lets it be known
that he has some skill with advanced thinking and
planning tools is likely to find himself in the
spotlight with our friend Shannon.
>As always, thanks.
. . . and thank YOU sir for volunteering to stand
in the bright lights. This is going to be a good
exercise for us all. One of chapters that is yet
to be added to the 'Connection deals with load
analysis and system architecture planning. My
participation in this activity is good review for
getting started on that new chapter.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
>
>
>I will re-read 17 and get back to you. My initial thoughts are that the
>SFS as well as the Xbow AHRS and the Merlin Datalink system all have
>computers in them. The SFS runs on a PC platform running NT I believe.
>Therefore, low voltage dropouts causing the SFS to re-boot in mid stream
>of the boot-up cycle does not seem like a good idea to me (or to the
>people at Lancair). We all know how finicky pc's with MS OS's on them
>can be, especially during boot-up. I just don't see the need to risk
>it. Also, the Xbow behaves similarly from my understanding, where it
>has to "boot-up" and takes some time to "align" itself or
>whatever.....re-booting it during this time doesn't seem like a good
>idea either. Same goes with the Merlin. If these units had power
>switches on them, I would totally agree, and would never even consider
>an avionics relay/switch....I would just turn them off. However, they
>don't, so I can't, so I feel it is warranted. Do you disagree? I'd
>love nothing else than to have the 2 switch spots open back up on my
>already stuffed panel :)
Risks come in two classes. (1) Those that are understood, quantified
and accounted for as part of the system design and operation and
(2) those that are rumored and not supported with facts from the
manufacturer and cause us to do all kinds of things, useful or
not, to assuage our worries.
Call the folks who make the gizmos in question. Ask them what
the stable operation input voltage range is for their products.
If it doesn't extend down to 9.0 volts or less, ask them
if they ever heard of DO-160? If their system does go into
reboot due to brown-out, does it come up reliably and with
no adverse consequences? If I had a product that couldn't
stay fully awake during engine cranking, it would have a
cold-boot routine on a brown-out detector that couldn't
care less if it were the first, second or tenth reboot
event triggered over the last 60 seconds. There are no
excuses for allowing any less stable performance to find its
way onto an airplane. System complexities in our automobiles
doubles every few years and there are millions of folks
out there who expect and receive good operating characteristics
on mornings so cold that he battery barely turns the engine
over.
I've had some discussions with Lancair concerning some
FADEC systems now being installed by some of their customers.
This piece of (
$%#%$) needs a pampered bus source in order
to achieve the minimal functions necessary to get the engine
started. In my never so humble opinion, this behavior is
inexcusable. I've got some ideas I'll be discussing with
them during my next trip out there in January for working
around this idiosyncrasy in the FADEC. Let's see if the
concerns you've identified are real first.
>I'm building a 14v plane. Which currents are you concerned with. Some
>of them were my best guesses. Some of them were obtained from a
>reference sheet of actual amp draws provided by Brent Regan. If Brents
>plane is a 28v plane, then I will need to double all the values I got
>from him. Do you know if his plane is? I hate to bother him with such
>a trivial question in light of the events last week...I'm sure he has
>enough to deal with.
What happened to Brent last week?
Don't worry about it. It was just a note in passing. I think
I saw something less than 6A for position lights. It's not
important right now. We need to build a framework for organizing
and analyzing all the data before we quibble over the actual
sizes of numbers.
>Thanks for the help. Your expertise and guidance is appreciated more
>than you realize.
You're helping me too . . . more than you realize. I'm really
stoked by this opportunity to run all the traps here on the
List . . . I've done in numerous times in the past on individual
OBAM projects and more times than I'd like to recall on spam-cans.
Each pass though it refines and cements good ideas . . . being
able to share it with the List readers makes this one of the
more promising efforts yet.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Chris Good"
" 'OC', Thanks for taking the lead on the torx screw issue. I purchased some
of the first batch of #8's from Micro Fasteners, & expect to use some of the
other sizes also. What do you use for pan head replacements? I'd like to use
torx, but McMaster Carr only has zinc plated pan head torx, or black oxide
torx plus. Have you been able to find cadmium plated, which I believe
minimizes dissimilar metal corrosion problems with aluminum? Regards, Chris
Good. West Bend, WI
RV-6A, flying. >>
10/20/2002
Hello Chris, I use hex socket drive pan head stainless steel screws purchased
from Micro Fasteners in many different sizes and places in my airplane. None
of these uses could be considered "structural".
In theory it would be nice to have all hex socket or all six-lobe (Torx)
drive screws in the plane for standardization purposes, but the reality is
that since the different sized hex socket screws and different sized Torx
drive screws require different sized drivers one is forced to have a variety
of drive bits on hand regardless of drive preferences or standardization. My
solution is found in the Chapman or Mini-Ratchet sets that come with a number
of different sizes and types of drive inserts. I'm never at a loss for the
right insert bit.
If you don't want to go stainless in order to avoid some perceived corrosion
conflict with aluminum (which I feel is overrated in our applications) I
don't have a good answer. Cadmium plating seems to be favored only within the
aerospace industry and their Phillips drive screws. The Textron Camcar
catalog doesn't show the specific combination that you want, but that doesn't
mean that it doesn't exist someplace. Maybe an extensive internet and
telephone search might turn up something.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
PS: I would like to apologize to all the electrophiles reading about screws
who are offended / annoyed by this subject appearing on this list. The only
excuses that I can offer are that: 1) Somebody else started it (right
Fergus?) 2) It is definitely related to our airplane building activities, and
3) Many builders are benefiting. Please be patient with our little side
excursion.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 18 awg fuse link |
>Hi, Bob. Your article on fabricating fusible links says to consult you
>for situations needing larger links.
>
>That's me. I am using a 14 awg wire for my essential bus alternate feed,
>and have about 6 or 8 amps full load on the bus. (I'm estimating the load
>for the Facet boost pump and primer.)
>
>I was going to use an 18 awg fuse link coming off the bat connection of
>the master contactor.
>
>Whaddaya think?
>
>Gary
Is this the only always hot feed you have from your battery?
In other words, I understand that you do not have a battery
bus that powers things other than the e-bus alternate feed?
If you have a battery bus, consider taking the alternate
feedpath off one of the fuse slots with a 10A fuse in it.
If your battery is very far away, 14AWG would help mitigate
small voltage drops, otherwise, you could drop down to
16AWG.
If the alternate feed IS the only always-hot feed, then
I'd go on down to 22AWG for the fusible link. You'd be
amazed at how robust a piece of 22AWG wire is in a
hard fault condition. It will handle your 6-8A full
load currents very nicely and keep the "weak link" as
weak as practical.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: influencing your legislators (was Re: standing up to |
be counted. . .)
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Hi Bob,
> >
> >This is just the way life is, you know. The inventor of the Xerox copier
> >was turned down by dozens of non-government corporate bureaucrats.
>
> . . . and even after the Xerox process became a runaway
> success, the same people who were snubbed by the copier
> marketplace failed to see the future in adapting the
> technology to laser printers. Even when the laser
> printer was first brought to life in Xerox's own
> Palo Alto labs, it was up to other companies to show
> them how to make $mucho$ with the idea.
>
> > The
> >auto and airplane were derided as silly ideas till they were
> >demonstrated. The developer of Fed Express got a poor grade for his thesis
> >outlining the design of the system.
> >
> >Railing against bureaucrats is like pissing into the wind, an expression I
> >learned while growing up in north central Kansas.
>
> There was a time when I would agree with that . . .
> now I think there is an increasing awareness of
> current trends and predicable futures for some
> of the paths our leadership has mapped out for
> us. The Internet is an important feature of this
> new awareness.
>
> Irrespective of whether or not you agree with
> anything I have to offer, how often do you write
> your congress-persons? Even when the details
> of your opinion are mis-understood or mis-filed
> by the recipient, they are acutely aware of the
> numbers of folk who are watching and expressing
> themselves.
>
> I write several times a week on various issues,
> usually at http://www.congress.org/ But if
> the issue is particularly important to me, the
> letters go out priority mail.
>
> >K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
> >RV6-a N7HK flying!
> >PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
>
My wife & I recently participated in a successful grass-roots campaign in
support of a bill to fund a particular kind of leukemia research. Here is how we
were told to get the word to the right place.
In the post 9-11 environment, DC legislators might not receive hard-copy mail
for months. Email is so easy to fake an source address that little weight is
given emails by the staff. We were told to contact the legislator's staff (local
or DC) & obtain the name of the assistant in charge of the field of interest.
Then obtain that assistant's fax number in DC. Faxes should include your name,
address & if desired, your phone number. This makes it easier for the staff to
verify that you are a legitimate voter.
A few hundred faxes resulted in our legislator's shift from not even being aware
of the bill to being a co-sponsor.
Hope this is useful info.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Architecture and load analysis studies |
Tom -
I had no problem downloading the .DWG file and pulling it up.
John Schroeder
>
> I'm having difficulty downloading the file
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/load_analysis.dwg When I try to download,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Architecture and load analysis studies |
Terry -
Prints OK in AutoCAD LT 2000.
John Schroeder
Terry Watson wrote:
>
>
> I downloaded and opened it in AutoCAD 14 three times and each time when I
> try print it I get a fatal error and some note about an access violation.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Slaughter" <willslau(at)alumni.rice.edu> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
Bob,
May I assume that the ($%#%$) FADEC unit you're referring to is the
Aerosance unit? I'm installing one in my RV-8 (money has already changed
hands), and am planning a 7.2 AH battery/SD-8 alternator as a dedicated
power source (pampered buss) for the FADEC. While I certainly agree that
this shouldn't be necessary, their unit is currently the only game in town
for integrated, computerized fuel and spark management of the sort we are
all used to having in our cars. If a pampered buss is what it needs at this
time, that's a price I'm willing to pay. I am anxious to hear your thoughts
on how to best configure the electrical system to accommodate their unit.
While I'm well aware that "It's the pioneers who get the arrows in their
backs.", I've been so impressed by the renaissance in automotive performance
over the last decade, which has been largely enabled by computerized engine
management, that I just can't see building a 21st century aircraft
powerplant any other way. So far, everyone I have personally spoken to who
has actually installed and flown on of the Aerosance units is very pleased.
None of them said it was the path on least resistance, however. While my
system architecture will certainly not compare with the complexity of the
Lancairs, I've found this thread a very interesting case study. As always,
thanks for the time and energy you devote to these very educational
exercises.
William Slaughter
RV-8 N492WS in progress
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: System architecture
>
>
>I will re-read 17 and get back to you. My initial thoughts are that the
>SFS as well as the Xbow AHRS and the Merlin Datalink system all have
>computers in them. The SFS runs on a PC platform running NT I believe.
>Therefore, low voltage dropouts causing the SFS to re-boot in mid stream
>of the boot-up cycle does not seem like a good idea to me (or to the
>people at Lancair). We all know how finicky pc's with MS OS's on them
>can be, especially during boot-up. I just don't see the need to risk
>it. Also, the Xbow behaves similarly from my understanding, where it
>has to "boot-up" and takes some time to "align" itself or
>whatever.....re-booting it during this time doesn't seem like a good
>idea either. Same goes with the Merlin. If these units had power
>switches on them, I would totally agree, and would never even consider
>an avionics relay/switch....I would just turn them off. However, they
>don't, so I can't, so I feel it is warranted. Do you disagree? I'd
>love nothing else than to have the 2 switch spots open back up on my
>already stuffed panel :)
Risks come in two classes. (1) Those that are understood, quantified
and accounted for as part of the system design and operation and
(2) those that are rumored and not supported with facts from the
manufacturer and cause us to do all kinds of things, useful or
not, to assuage our worries.
Call the folks who make the gizmos in question. Ask them what
the stable operation input voltage range is for their products.
If it doesn't extend down to 9.0 volts or less, ask them
if they ever heard of DO-160? If their system does go into
reboot due to brown-out, does it come up reliably and with
no adverse consequences? If I had a product that couldn't
stay fully awake during engine cranking, it would have a
cold-boot routine on a brown-out detector that couldn't
care less if it were the first, second or tenth reboot
event triggered over the last 60 seconds. There are no
excuses for allowing any less stable performance to find its
way onto an airplane. System complexities in our automobiles
doubles every few years and there are millions of folks
out there who expect and receive good operating characteristics
on mornings so cold that he battery barely turns the engine
over.
I've had some discussions with Lancair concerning some
FADEC systems now being installed by some of their customers.
This piece of (
$%#%$) needs a pampered bus source in order
to achieve the minimal functions necessary to get the engine
started. In my never so humble opinion, this behavior is
inexcusable. I've got some ideas I'll be discussing with
them during my next trip out there in January for working
around this idiosyncrasy in the FADEC. Let's see if the
concerns you've identified are real first.
>I'm building a 14v plane. Which currents are you concerned with. Some
>of them were my best guesses. Some of them were obtained from a
>reference sheet of actual amp draws provided by Brent Regan. If Brents
>plane is a 28v plane, then I will need to double all the values I got
>from him. Do you know if his plane is? I hate to bother him with such
>a trivial question in light of the events last week...I'm sure he has
>enough to deal with.
What happened to Brent last week?
Don't worry about it. It was just a note in passing. I think
I saw something less than 6A for position lights. It's not
important right now. We need to build a framework for organizing
and analyzing all the data before we quibble over the actual
sizes of numbers.
>Thanks for the help. Your expertise and guidance is appreciated more
>than you realize.
You're helping me too . . . more than you realize. I'm really
stoked by this opportunity to run all the traps here on the
List . . . I've done in numerous times in the past on individual
OBAM projects and more times than I'd like to recall on spam-cans.
Each pass though it refines and cements good ideas . . . being
able to share it with the List readers makes this one of the
more promising efforts yet.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: System architecture |
William Slaughter wrote:
>
>
> Bob,
> May I assume that the ($%#%$) FADEC unit you're referring to is the
> Aerosance unit? I'm installing one in my RV-8 (money has already changed
> hands), and am planning a 7.2 AH battery/SD-8 alternator as a dedicated
> power source (pampered buss) for the FADEC. While I certainly agree that
> this shouldn't be necessary, their unit is currently the only game in town
> for integrated, computerized fuel and spark management of the sort we are
> all used to having in our cars. If a pampered buss is what it needs at this
> time, that's a price I'm willing to pay. I am anxious to hear your thoughts
> on how to best configure the electrical system to accommodate their unit.
> While I'm well aware that "It's the pioneers who get the arrows in their
> backs.", I've been so impressed by the renaissance in automotive performance
> over the last decade, which has been largely enabled by computerized engine
> management, that I just can't see building a 21st century aircraft
> powerplant any other way. So far, everyone I have personally spoken to who
> has actually installed and flown on of the Aerosance units is very pleased.
> None of them said it was the path on least resistance, however. While my
> system architecture will certainly not compare with the complexity of the
> Lancairs, I've found this thread a very interesting case study. As always,
> thanks for the time and energy you devote to these very educational
> exercises.
>
> William Slaughter
> RV-8 N492WS in progress
>
I just looked at their price list. If I could afford that much for ignition &
fuel injection, I'd just buy a Sai Marchetti & be done with it. :-)
Seriously, If you want similar performance for 1/10 the cost, talk to Tracy
Crook at Real World Solutions. He probably has more hours on the unit he
designed (flying on an RV-4) than all the Aerosance units combined. He doesn't
consider his unit a 'FADEC' because true FADEC gives the computer 'Full
Authority' with the pilot only making requests to the computer.
The web site lists various alternative engines, but he's currently working with
someone installing one on a Lycosaur (software changes).
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/eficont.html
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Strobe "reconditioning" |
I have a Whelen strobe light power supply that I haven't powered up in many
years. I have heard that the capacitors in strobe supplies "weaken" after
long periods of inactivity, and have to be slowly trained up to normal
voltage. Can anyone advise me on how to do this?
Jim Oberst
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe "reconditioning" |
><joberst@cox-internet.com>
>
>I have a Whelen strobe light power supply that I haven't powered up in many
>years. I have heard that the capacitors in strobe supplies "weaken" after
>long periods of inactivity, and have to be slowly trained up to normal
>voltage. Can anyone advise me on how to do this?
Hook up the 14 volt supply leads to a 6v battery. Leave the
strobe head(s) disconnected. After 10 hours or so, apply
full 12v for another 10 hours. Then you can hook up
heads and see how it works.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe "reconditioning" |
Check on the Whelen web site. At one time, they said that you should
re-form the electrolytic capacitors with about 70% of normal voltage. I even
wrote and article about the procedure. The print wasn't even dry when some
one wrote me saying that it was no longer necessary; that they had installed
better capacitors. So I would check with Whelen. Might even phone them.
They might say you need to re-form at a lower voltage or they may say, "just
turn them on!"
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim & Jeanette Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe "reconditioning"
<joberst@cox-internet.com>
>
> I have a Whelen strobe light power supply that I haven't powered up in
many
> years. I have heard that the capacitors in strobe supplies "weaken" after
> long periods of inactivity, and have to be slowly trained up to normal
> voltage. Can anyone advise me on how to do this?
>
> Jim Oberst
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Influencing you legislators (was: standing up to |
be
counted. . .)
>My wife & I recently participated in a successful grass-roots campaign in
>support of a bill to fund a particular kind of leukemia research. Here is
>how we
>were told to get the word to the right place.
>
>In the post 9-11 environment, DC legislators might not receive hard-copy mail
>for months. Email is so easy to fake an source address that little weight is
>given emails by the staff. We were told to contact the legislator's staff
>(local
>or DC) & obtain the name of the assistant in charge of the field of interest.
>Then obtain that assistant's fax number in DC. Faxes should include your name,
>address & if desired, your phone number. This makes it easier for the staff to
>verify that you are a legitimate voter.
>
>A few hundred faxes resulted in our legislator's shift from not even being
>aware
>of the bill to being a co-sponsor.
>
>Hope this is useful info.
>
>Charlie
Sure. Every effort one makes to make their
communications more focused can't do anything
but help.
We've moved through many eras starting with the
hunter-gatherers, agrarian, craftsman, industrial, and
now find ourselves well along in the technological
age and on the brink of a new era . . .
the information age.
Years ago all we had was newspapers and mail. Then
came telephone, radio, television, and even fax
machines although they were rarely use by ordinary
individuals.
But now one can send and receive faxes through their
computer. It just keeps getting better and better.
The Internet is making it very difficult for those
who would call themselves our learned leaders to
keep a low profile on behavior that went
relatively unnoticed for many years behind a snow
storm of selective information dissemination
by the classic "news" services.
Even now, the new technology for sharing information
makes it possible for us to have this list-server
and share our knowledge on a far greater scale than
ever before possible and for very little cost.
The Internet has only begun the profound effects
on options it offers for new ways to conduct our
lives. It's also a powerful tool for spotlighting
dishonorable behavior by those who embellish their
names with "honorable" and hope we haven't noticed
things that would have us believe otherwise.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe "reconditioning" |
I went out to the www.whelen.com and the warning is still there....
WARNING: Strobe light power supplies are meant to be used, not
to remain in an inactive state. Use them at all times, this will improve
their proper functioning. Any strobe light power supply that has been
out of service for a long period of time is subject to failure because
the electrolytic condenser loses the polarity formation. A strobe light
power supply not having been used for one year or longer is vulnerable
to failure.
If this is the case, it is recommended to start operating the system
on a voltage that is reduced by 25 percent for 10 to 15 minutes before
putting the power supply into normal service. This will prevent overheating
of the condenser while they reform. If the power supply, after
a long period of non use, is operated at full voltage immediately, there
is an excellent possibility that the condenser will become overheated.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe "reconditioning"
>
> Check on the Whelen web site. At one time, they said that you should
> re-form the electrolytic capacitors with about 70% of normal voltage. I
even
> wrote and article about the procedure. The print wasn't even dry when
some
> one wrote me saying that it was no longer necessary; that they had
installed
> better capacitors. So I would check with Whelen. Might even phone them.
> They might say you need to re-form at a lower voltage or they may say,
"just
> turn them on!"
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim & Jeanette Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe "reconditioning"
>
>
> <joberst@cox-internet.com>
> >
> > I have a Whelen strobe light power supply that I haven't powered up in
> many
> > years. I have heard that the capacitors in strobe supplies "weaken"
after
> > long periods of inactivity, and have to be slowly trained up to normal
> > voltage. Can anyone advise me on how to do this?
> >
> > Jim Oberst
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Influencing your suppliers (was: System Architecture) |
>
>
>Bob,
>May I assume that the ($%#%$) FADEC unit you're referring to is the
>Aerosance unit? I'm installing one in my RV-8 (money has already changed
>hands), and am planning a 7.2 AH battery/SD-8 alternator as a dedicated
>power source (pampered buss) for the FADEC. While I certainly agree that
>this shouldn't be necessary, their unit is currently the only game in town
>for integrated, computerized fuel and spark management of the sort we are
>all used to having in our cars. If a pampered buss is what it needs at this
>time, that's a price I'm willing to pay. I am anxious to hear your thoughts
>on how to best configure the electrical system to accommodate their unit.
I don't recall now which brand of FADEC I was looking
at. I'll update you all when we have a handle on ways
to make it work.
I'm working on several approaches. The obvious is a separate
battery that doesn't get loaded with starter current. This is
Lancair's present approach. But if it's a battery that CAN'T
help with cranking, then the system gets one BIG battery and
one SMALL battery which kind of hoses up the advantages of
dual-identical-batteries for maintenance.
I'm looking at a couple of hardware approaches that eliminate
the need for a high maintenance battery . . .
>While I'm well aware that "It's the pioneers who get the arrows in their
>backs.", I've been so impressed by the renaissance in automotive performance
>over the last decade, which has been largely enabled by computerized engine
>management, that I just can't see building a 21st century aircraft
>powerplant any other way. So far, everyone I have personally spoken to who
>has actually installed and flown on of the Aerosance units is very pleased.
I have no doubts that the folks who designed the current offerings
were concentrating very hard on performance issues under "normal
cruising" conditions. It's almost a dead-nuts given that an all
electronic approach will beat the socks off of carbs/n/mags . . .
If they had just gone the final step further, taken advantage
of about 40 years of experience and took the last step to
make sure the weakest link in cranking performance didn't
happen in THEIR product.
>None of them said it was the path on least resistance, however. While my
>system architecture will certainly not compare with the complexity of the
>Lancairs, I've found this thread a very interesting case study. As always,
>thanks for the time and energy you devote to these very educational
>exercises.
We'll figure out a way to make them work. That doesn't
relieve any of us from obligation as responsible consumers
to rag their butts for not doing their homework.
I've often suggested that builders stop by the booths
of such vendors at OSH and ask lots of questions. Show
lots of interest and then pop the biggie . . . "What do
I need to do to pamper your system so it will work in
my airplane?" When you get the "bad" news, just shake
your head sadly and walk away. Tell them you'll check
back with them next year. Do this even if you're not
particularly interested in owning the thing right
now.
Now, if you really want the system and you're willing
to learn to live with it's shortcomings, go ahead and
order it about two weeks after you repeat the same Q&A
performance over the phone.
I just mentioned in another post that we're acquiring
powerful new tools in the age of information. One
number every supplier is learning to track is potential
lost sales due to poor consumer perceptions. We can
make a BIG impression by making them think they're
loosing sales due to design and performance shortfalls.
We can also make a big impression by letting them know that
LOTS of folks are becoming AWARE of their shortfalls.
If we don't do this, it's unlikely that the problems
will ever be fixed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
At the least, I will modify my AV bus to have a diode in series with the
AV switch, and then add an Alternate Feed switch off the battery bus.
Unfortunately, there was an accident at Brent's airstrip on Tuesday
involving 599L, the Lancair factory IVP, and 3 CFS/SFS employees (Grant,
Barry, and Nate. From Aero-News.Net:
http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?ContentBlockID=6135
I'll get working on modifying the spreadsheet, and we'll go from there.
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: System architecture
>
>
>I will re-read 17 and get back to you. My initial thoughts are that
the
>SFS as well as the Xbow AHRS and the Merlin Datalink system all have
>computers in them. The SFS runs on a PC platform running NT I believe.
>Therefore, low voltage dropouts causing the SFS to re-boot in mid
stream
>of the boot-up cycle does not seem like a good idea to me (or to the
>people at Lancair). We all know how finicky pc's with MS OS's on them
>can be, especially during boot-up. I just don't see the need to risk
>it. Also, the Xbow behaves similarly from my understanding, where it
>has to "boot-up" and takes some time to "align" itself or
>whatever.....re-booting it during this time doesn't seem like a good
>idea either. Same goes with the Merlin. If these units had power
>switches on them, I would totally agree, and would never even consider
>an avionics relay/switch....I would just turn them off. However, they
>don't, so I can't, so I feel it is warranted. Do you disagree? I'd
>love nothing else than to have the 2 switch spots open back up on my
>already stuffed panel :)
Risks come in two classes. (1) Those that are understood, quantified
and accounted for as part of the system design and operation and
(2) those that are rumored and not supported with facts from the
manufacturer and cause us to do all kinds of things, useful or
not, to assuage our worries.
Call the folks who make the gizmos in question. Ask them what
the stable operation input voltage range is for their products.
If it doesn't extend down to 9.0 volts or less, ask them
if they ever heard of DO-160? If their system does go into
reboot due to brown-out, does it come up reliably and with
no adverse consequences? If I had a product that couldn't
stay fully awake during engine cranking, it would have a
cold-boot routine on a brown-out detector that couldn't
care less if it were the first, second or tenth reboot
event triggered over the last 60 seconds. There are no
excuses for allowing any less stable performance to find its
way onto an airplane. System complexities in our automobiles
doubles every few years and there are millions of folks
out there who expect and receive good operating characteristics
on mornings so cold that he battery barely turns the engine
over.
I've had some discussions with Lancair concerning some
FADEC systems now being installed by some of their customers.
This piece of (
$%#%$) needs a pampered bus source in order
to achieve the minimal functions necessary to get the engine
started. In my never so humble opinion, this behavior is
inexcusable. I've got some ideas I'll be discussing with
them during my next trip out there in January for working
around this idiosyncrasy in the FADEC. Let's see if the
concerns you've identified are real first.
>I'm building a 14v plane. Which currents are you concerned with. Some
>of them were my best guesses. Some of them were obtained from a
>reference sheet of actual amp draws provided by Brent Regan. If Brents
>plane is a 28v plane, then I will need to double all the values I got
>from him. Do you know if his plane is? I hate to bother him with such
>a trivial question in light of the events last week...I'm sure he has
>enough to deal with.
What happened to Brent last week?
Don't worry about it. It was just a note in passing. I think
I saw something less than 6A for position lights. It's not
important right now. We need to build a framework for organizing
and analyzing all the data before we quibble over the actual
sizes of numbers.
>Thanks for the help. Your expertise and guidance is appreciated more
>than you realize.
You're helping me too . . . more than you realize. I'm really
stoked by this opportunity to run all the traps here on the
List . . . I've done in numerous times in the past on individual
OBAM projects and more times than I'd like to recall on spam-cans.
Each pass though it refines and cements good ideas . . . being
able to share it with the List readers makes this one of the
more promising efforts yet.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Les L. Hill" <lhill(at)wyoming.com> |
| Subject: | LongEZ - Rudimenary system planning |
Bob,
After attending your seminar in SLC sometime ago, I came home & began the
task of planning the electrical system for my Long-EZ. The choice of
avionics, instrumentation & etc. was an ongoing tug of war between this,
that and the latest. I went to OSH this year with a list & money in hand,
my mind set (at least I thought so, but one has to be somewhat flexible)
and purchased avionics, engine instruments & some misc goodies. Due to some
"lack of performance" on the intended engine instrumentation, I went with
the Elec Int'l brand. I got some very good deals & left pleased.
Here is what I have tenatively placed on each bus:
MAIN BUS:
Low voltage wrng
Spare (Possible future cabin heat...)
Landing lgt
Nav & Strobe lgts (2-10 swtch)
Intercom & audio (CD/MP3)
Elec Int'l Analyzer & Fuel flow instrm'ts
Starter Contactor
DigiTrak A/P
Lndg/Air Brake
Nose Gear System
AUXILLARY BUS:
Rocky Mtn uEncoder
SL/30 Com
SL/30 Nav & Terra Digital CDI
Apollo GX-65 Com-#2
Apollo GX-65 GPS
SL/70 Transpdr
Spare (future elec AI)
Spare (future elec DG)
Turn Co-ord
Elec Int'l Tach, Oil, & V/A gauges
BATTERY BUS:
Map & Inst lights/ Gear & Canopy Warn'g System
Spare
LSE Elect'c Ign
Handheld Nav/Com/GPS (Cigarette lghtr plug)
Auxillary Bus
Fuel Boost/Primer sys
Would like to have the Instm't lights & Warning system circuits on the Main
buss, how about adding them in with the low voltage circuit?
I have worked up most of the numbers for the loads on each, but would
appreciate any input thus far. I used AutoCAD & your CD for all of my Elec
System drawings & am willing to share what I have to date with those who
are interested. Thank you very much, Bob, for the excellent work and time
you have devoted to the homebuilder's community. Your efforts have made
this a very pleasurable experience for me.
Les N69HZ (reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 18 awg fuse link |
>Hmmm......Okay. You are correct, the Essential Bus is the only "always
>hot" thing in the system.
>
>As a matter of fact I found out how much a 22awg fuse link can stand today.
>
>I have about half of the wiring done, and hooked up the battery for a
>"smoke test." It worked! Quite a nice plume of smoke! It came from your
>Overvoltage protection module, and the feed to it was of course the fuse
>link you show for the alternator field feed.
>
>The only thing that was operating at the time was the flap circuit. I
>found nothing miswired, and the flaps and Master contactor still work fine
>after the smoke. The B-lead contactor was not even hooked up at the
>time. I tried it since, and it works too. The fuselink will need to be
>replaced.....the insulation got all mushy inside the sleeve. The O/V
>module wires are now stuck together, but not really melted. And the heat
>shrink shrank lots more.
>
>I also must assume that the O/V module has departed this world. It was
>wired correctly, correct polarity, etc. Was it a bad module?
>
>I have since hooked up more stuff, and everything works and nothing gets
>hot. I didn't change anything (other than adding components) since the
>"smoke test."
Hmmm . . . did you have a 5A circuit breaker in series with the
ov module or JUST the fusible link? The fusible link is to
protect a wired EXTENSION of the main bus between the bus
feeder and the 5A breaker on the panel. It's not intended to
be the protective device that opens when the ov module trips.
Send me your OV module and I'll fix it. I'll also see if there
was any reason by way of its assembly that caused it to nuisance
trip.
Do you have enough materials to replace the 22AWG fusible link
that burned?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
>
>
>At the least, I will modify my AV bus to have a diode in series with the
>AV switch, and then add an Alternate Feed switch off the battery bus.
What is the value to be gained in having a separately
switched avionics bus?
>Unfortunately, there was an accident at Brent's airstrip on Tuesday
>involving 599L, the Lancair factory IVP, and 3 CFS/SFS employees (Grant,
>Barry, and Nate. From Aero-News.Net:
>http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?ContentBlockID=6135
Damn! This is sad. Thanks for the heads-up on the
accident. These toys we love so much are anything
but "safe" folks. They have whirring propellers that
will mince you in a millisecond, they're death traps
in a storm, and viciously unforgiving of inattention
to operational limits.
I had an instrument instructor who once suggested
that when on final for any approach you would do
well to be thinking, "This may the approach that
I'll really get to do a go-around."
On short final, we are prone to the mindset that
every approach WILL end with a landing. I've ridden
with pilots who take their hand off the throttle
and fly with both hands on final.
Even so, there are some "canyons" from which a
graceful exit are not possible including runway edges
with drop-offs onto gravel . . .
Be careful out there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Measuring Load |
John Slade wrote:
>
>
> While we're talking about loads, I have a dumb question about my multimeter
> (from B&C).
> This may be pretty basic, so bare with me. So far, all I've been able to use
> it for is testing continuity. Last night I wanted to see which was which of
> two resitors, a 1k and a 470 ohm.
> I tested each and had no clue what the readings meant. I've since identified
> the resitors by looking at the packet.
>
> Here's the readings:
>
> No connection:
> 200 ohm scale: 62.8 ... The meter is leaky...
> 2k ohm scale: .423 ... The meter is leaky...
> 20k ohm scale: 1.26 ... The meter is leaky...
>
*** I believe that digital ohmmeters work by attempting to output a constant
current into the test resistance, and measuring the voltage across it. By
ohms law Voltage = Current * Resistance. If Current is a known constant,
then you can find out Resistance by measuring Voltage.
When there is nothing connected to the meter, the internal Current source
should raise the Voltage at the test leads as high as it can go - trying to
push that constant Current through the air. The meter should measure that
Voltage and show "off the scale".
An internal leakage path in your meter is shorting out some current,
letting the meter read a "resistance" with nothing connected. This
"resistance" varies with range setting because the constant current output
or voltage full-scale is different.
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: loadmeter/voltmeter |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >*** Speaking of voltmeters, I was at the auto parts store, and there was a
> >cute little digital voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter socket.
> >I had to have it. Now it lives in my Sundowner. I don't smoke :).
> >
> > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
> Radio Shack used to offer a bar-graph voltmeter that plugged into
> the cigar lighter too. Never put my hands on one to see how it
> was scaled or how accurate it was. Might do that next time I see
> one. Have you checked the accuracy of your purchase against a
> good multi-meter? It's getting easier by the year to do accurate
> voltage measurement and display so accuracy issues should be
> diminishing . . . but there are some early offerings out there
> that were off by more than 0.5 volts at 14.0 volts.
>
*** The meter is made by "Vector". It claims to be accurate to .1V. Here's
a URL:
http://store.yahoo.com/rodi/vec008.html
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
The use of the Radio Shack #276-1185 is a 25A 50PIV bridge. In the book It is recommended to use only one leg of this device. The reason for this is that it is hard to get a single power diode in a package that is as easy to bolt on and has its own heatsink for any reasonable price. www.allelectronics.com has the same part #FWB250 for $1.75. Almost everybody sells one of these.
There are some considerations that should be examined:
The 25 Amp is not continuous 25A DC. It is rectified average current. The true
DC continuous current is (depending on test method) 12.5 Amps or 17.7. This is
derates linearly from 70 degC to 150 degC where the current is zero. The continuous
DC current is not specified because the FWB is almost never used this way.
Teasing the real data out of the AC published AC data is not easy.
Granted, the lower current typical of small airplanes should give no problem, but
if the airplane has a lot of accessories on the essential bus, some things
should be examined.
The power loss through the diode (and the voltage drop) can be critical in emergency
situations. At 12.5A the forward voltage drop is 1.1 VDC. This Vf drops
off with current. This would be okay at high voltages, but if the alternator has
gone kaput this becomes an important waste.
I suggest it makes a lot more sense to use a whopping big single Schottky diode
for this purpose, for example IR-100BGQ030. It has some great advantages:
1) At 150 degC and 25A it would still work just fine. The RS FWB part would
be long dead if pushed it this far.
2) Its forward voltage drop Vf at 25A is less than 0.3 VDC.
Downsides? Any comments?
Want to buy some?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 10008 Parrish |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Rudy Parrish (fly90u(at)hotmail.com) on Monday, October 21, 2002 at 11:14:19
>
>Comments/Questions: Could you recommend a charger or charger/analyzer for
>use with an RG battery (Concorde). Concorde's instructions require a
>constant-potential charger, but I have yet to find one on the market,
>short of high-end professional equipment, and none of my acquaintances at
>the airport have one either. Is it out of the question to use a constant
>amperage charger on this type of battery?
First, why do you think you need a charger? An RG battery has a very
low, self-discharge rate. Once installed in your airplane, it should
perform very nicely as long as the airplane doesn't sit for 6 months
at a time.
Almost any automotive charger from Wall-Mart, etc that advertises
"automatic cutoff" Harbor Freight has one on sale at
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45005
for $20.
After any charger has been attached to your battery for
24 hours, put a voltmeter on the battery terminals and
see that the reading does not exceed 14 volts.
If you're simply wanting to maintain a battery for long
periods of storage, about ANY little "trickle charger" combined
with a clock switch can be used to turn the charger on for
30 minutes or so every day.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD <John.Livingston(at)wpafb.af.mil> |
Eric,
The way I understand it, the essential bus currents should not be high enough
to worry about it, and the diode is not used when the alternator has gone south,
a direct feed is then being used from the battery.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric M. Jones [mailto:emjones(at)charter.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Diode
The use of the Radio Shack #276-1185 is a 25A 50PIV bridge. In the book It is recommended to use only one leg of this device. The reason for this is that it is hard to get a single power diode in a package that is as easy to bolt on and has its own heatsink for any reasonable price. www.allelectronics.com has the same part #FWB250 for $1.75. Almost everybody sells one of these.
There are some considerations that should be examined:
The 25 Amp is not continuous 25A DC. It is rectified average current. The true
DC continuous current is (depending on test method) 12.5 Amps or 17.7. This is
derates linearly from 70 degC to 150 degC where the current is zero. The continuous
DC current is not specified because the FWB is almost never used this way.
Teasing the real data out of the AC published AC data is not easy.
Granted, the lower current typical of small airplanes should give no problem, but
if the airplane has a lot of accessories on the essential bus, some things
should be examined.
The power loss through the diode (and the voltage drop) can be critical in emergency
situations. At 12.5A the forward voltage drop is 1.1 VDC. This Vf drops
off with current. This would be okay at high voltages, but if the alternator has
gone kaput this becomes an important waste.
I suggest it makes a lot more sense to use a whopping big single Schottky diode
for this purpose, for example IR-100BGQ030. It has some great advantages:
1) At 150 degC and 25A it would still work just fine. The RS FWB part would
be long dead if pushed it this far.
2) Its forward voltage drop Vf at 25A is less than 0.3 VDC.
Downsides? Any comments?
Want to buy some?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
Bob,
Is there a way I can reach you to discuss this instead of typing it all
out? I've contacted SFS and Xbow again, and pretty much have been told
the same thing again.
SFS, Robert, 208.389.9959
Xbow, Dean, 408.965.3300
The xbow is DO-160 for class 23. It takes it about 1 second to boot up,
starts sending data, and takes about 60 seconds to calibrate itself to
straight and level. They suggest an avionics master, but say it
shouldn't require it.
SFS is a little different. The certified version from CFS is DO-160
Delta hardware and DO-178 Alpha software. However, the certified
version hardware is slightly different than the SFS stuff. The SFS
stuff was DO-160 tested, but nothing was really done to correct any of
the small problems found (not really sure what was found though)...this
stuff was corrected in the hardware of the CFS certified stuff. When
the unit sees below 9.5 volts, its shuts down and waits for the voltage
to come back up. It has about a 90 second boot cycle. The first 5-6
seconds are done in MSDOS 6.22 where it checks for the cards and
whatnot. Then in another 5-6 seconds, it switches over to its
proprietary software that does CRC checks, opens files, and gets the
unit fired up. This takes another 75-80 seconds, so 90 seconds total.
If during the time it is opening a file the voltage drops and it shuts
down, it can mess things up. Also, it can loose (fry) the voice
annunciation chip.
These are the reasons I saw fit for a AV master. With the master, I can
protect the SFS. By adding an AV ALT FEED along with a diode in series
with the AV MASTER, I can reduce the chance of an AV MASTER switch
ruining my day. I realize this is adding parts to fix someone elses
problem (SFS), but it seems the only logical way. The SFS basically
requires it, or it "could" do nasty things if I timed the start just
wrong. Since I'm basically stuck with putting the AV MASTER in, I'll
back it up with a diode in line, and an ALT AV FEED. Not the best idea
in a perfect world, but the best solution I can see to what I've been
given?
I'm still working on the load spreadsheet, modifying it for the
different phases of flight. I'll be sending it in soon.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: System architecture
>
>
>At the least, I will modify my AV bus to have a diode in series with
the
>AV switch, and then add an Alternate Feed switch off the battery bus.
What is the value to be gained in having a separately
switched avionics bus?
>Unfortunately, there was an accident at Brent's airstrip on Tuesday
>involving 599L, the Lancair factory IVP, and 3 CFS/SFS employees
(Grant,
>Barry, and Nate. From Aero-News.Net:
>http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?ContentBlockID=6135
Damn! This is sad. Thanks for the heads-up on the
accident. These toys we love so much are anything
but "safe" folks. They have whirring propellers that
will mince you in a millisecond, they're death traps
in a storm, and viciously unforgiving of inattention
to operational limits.
I had an instrument instructor who once suggested
that when on final for any approach you would do
well to be thinking, "This may the approach that
I'll really get to do a go-around."
On short final, we are prone to the mindset that
every approach WILL end with a landing. I've ridden
with pilots who take their hand off the throttle
and fly with both hands on final.
Even so, there are some "canyons" from which a
graceful exit are not possible including runway edges
with drop-offs onto gravel . . .
Be careful out there.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: loadmeter/voltmeter |
Just a thought if you are planning on a GPS, the Garmin 196 has a
voltmeter... I use it to check the generator voltages on my Apache before
takeoff... Quicker and more accurate than watching the verrry slow needle on
the 45 year old ammeter...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: <jerry(at)tr2.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: loadmeter/voltmeter
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >*** Speaking of voltmeters, I was at the auto parts store, and there
was a
> > >cute little digital voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter
socket.
> > >I had to have it. Now it lives in my Sundowner. I don't smoke :).
> > >
> > > - Jerry Kaidor (
jerry(at)tr2.com )
> >
> > Radio Shack used to offer a bar-graph voltmeter that plugged into
> > the cigar lighter too. Never put my hands on one to see how it
> > was scaled or how accurate it was. Might do that next time I see
> > one. Have you checked the accuracy of your purchase against a
> > good multi-meter? It's getting easier by the year to do accurate
> > voltage measurement and display so accuracy issues should be
> > diminishing . . . but there are some early offerings out there
> > that were off by more than 0.5 volts at 14.0 volts.
> >
>
> *** The meter is made by "Vector". It claims to be accurate to .1V.
Here's
> a URL:
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/rodi/vec008.html
>
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Avionics Switches |
Bob,
I have read your opinions regarding avionics master switches.
If a specific avionics item does not have it's own switch, do you recommend
putting one in? It appears to me that if you had redundant avionics
(electric AI for example), in an alternator failure situation and wanded to
preserve battery, you would want to turn off the redundant instrements
unless they were needed. As such, items like an attitude indicator, turn &
bank, that do not have thier own internal switch, could justify having one.
(not all ganged up on a single master switch for all avionics, just switches
for those that don't have thier own.)
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
Livingston John W Civ ASC/ENFD wrote:
>
>
> The 25 Amp is not continuous 25A DC. It is rectified average current. The
> true DC continuous current is (depending on test method) 12.5 Amps or
> 17.7. This is derates linearly from 70 degC to 150 degC where the current
> is zero. The continuous DC current is not specified because the FWB is
> almost never used this way. Teasing the real data out of the AC published
> AC data is not easy.
>
*** Seems to me you should be able to get more out of it since you're not
using the other three diodes. Also, a decent heat sink will go a long way
to getting full output through the thing. And an airframe can be a VERY
decent heatsink. I once built a 20A continuous power supply. I used one
of those RS fullwave bridges. I bolted it to a 1/4" aluminum heat spreader
that was bolted to a 1/4" aluminum bottom plate ( of the entire supply ).
I had a pretty enormous filter capacitor, which tended to make life
harder on the rectifiers - because the cap would pull a huge gob of current
every time the diodes conducted. A discharged cap looks like a short
circuit.
I think it would be worth trying out the RS bridge with the desired DC
running through it, well heatsinked, and a thermal probe to figure out if
it's doing OK.
> I suggest it makes a lot more sense to use a whopping big single Schottky
> diode for this purpose, for example IR-100BGQ030. It has some great
> 2) Its forward voltage drop Vf at 25A is less than 0.3 VDC.
*** That's a VERY good point. If you have stuff that's line voltage
sensitive, and the alternator is dead, and you're approaching that airport -
that extra volt could be the difference between making and not making it....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Diode Bridge Rectifiers vs. Others |
>
>The use of the Radio Shack #276-1185 is a 25A 50PIV bridge. In the book It
>is recommended to use only one leg of this device. The reason for this is
>that it is hard to get a single power diode in a package that is as easy
>to bolt on and has its own heatsink for any reasonable price.
>www.allelectronics.com has the same part #FWB250 for $1.75. Almost
>everybody sells one of these.
>
>
>There are some considerations that should be examined:
>
>The 25 Amp is not continuous 25A DC. It is rectified average current. The
>true DC continuous current is (depending on test method) 12.5 Amps or
>17.7. This is derates linearly from 70 degC to 150 degC where the current
>is zero. The continuous DC current is not specified because the FWB is
>almost never used this way. Teasing the real data out of the AC published
>AC data is not easy.
The folks that publish data sheets and pick ratings for their
parts don't seem to talk to each other much. Looking at
the data sheet for the 100BGQ030 part from IR we infer
that the "100" given in their part number is a "current"
rating. Looking at the Major Ratings chart on the data
sheet at http://216.55.140.222/temp/100bgq030.pdf
we note that a "rectangular waveform average rating"
of 100A (180 degree square wave conduction angle)
and a DC (RMS) rating of 141 amps. This means that the
part-number-rating is NOT the DC rating for the device.
Looking at the data sheet for the 25F series devices
at http://216.55.140.222/temp/25f.pdf we see that
the part number current rating for these devices IS
the DC/RMS value. Figures 1 and 2 show how the device
needs to be de-rated when the average current flow
occurs over decreasing conduction angles while
working as a rectifier in AC systems.
Let's look at a 35A bridge rectifier from international
rectifier. Excepts are published at
http://216.55.140.222/temp/36mb.pdf
Here again, we see that the part number current rating
of 35A is the DC current rating which gets de-rated
to 28A for capacitive input filters (conduction
angles less than 180 degrees).
The 100A Schottky device is seems to be the odd-ball
in that it's part number rating is not also the DC rating.
>Granted, the lower current typical of small airplanes should give no
>problem, but if the airplane has a lot of accessories on the essential
>bus, some things should be examined.
An e-bus load that even begins to push the ratings of a
25-35A rectifier assembly has waaaayyyyyy too much stuff
on it . . .
>The power loss through the diode (and the voltage drop) can be critical in
>emergency situations. At 12.5A the forward voltage drop is 1.1 VDC. This
>Vf drops off with current. This would be okay at high voltages, but if the
>alternator has gone kaput this becomes an important waste.
How so? The 1.1 volts is a maximum value never experienced in the way
we're going to use the part. E-bus loads should be down around
3-6 amps continuous. A 35A device shows a drop on the order
of .7 to .8 volts or less at this current level.
When you are operating battery only, we EXPECT things on the
e-bus to operate directly from the battery with an output voltage
range of 12.5 volts (100% charge) down to 10.5 volts (0% charge).
When the alternator is operating, the main bus is running over
a range of 13.8 to 14.6 volts. Throw away 0.8 volts due to diode
drop then you have a 13.0 to 13.6 volt e-bus . . . 0.5 to 1.1
volts more than a battery will ever deliver.
When the alternator goes "kaput" . . . the diode is there to PREVENT
powering the main bus via the e-bus alternate feed. The e-bus gets
powered directly from the battery during alternator out ops.
>I suggest it makes a lot more sense to use a whopping big single Schottky
>diode for this purpose, for example IR-100BGQ030. It has some great advantages:
(Referring to the data sheet cited above)
Aside from the fact that this part has about 1/2 the voltage
drop (which isn't an issue anyhow) How would we mount
this critter? It's designed to be soldered to an
etched circuit board. There are lots of diode configurations
out there with attractive electrical ratings . . . the diode
bridge we've recommended for a number of years now was favored
for it's installer friendly configuration.
Take a peek at the 25F part. This is a nice part, works
good, lasts a long time . . . but it needs to be mounted on
some kind of heat-sinking bracket. It needs insulating hardware
(usually mica washers and nylon bushing), nuts, washers, terminals
and one solder joint to install. The bridge rectifier is about
a close to plug-n-play as I've been able to find for this
application.
>1) At 150 degC and 25A it would still work just fine. The RS FWB
>part would be long dead if pushed it this far.
>
>2) Its forward voltage drop Vf at 25A is less than 0.3 VDC.
All the things you've said are true. However, I'll suggest that
the recommended devices ARE electrically suited for the
intended application and mechanically the most elegant
solution available.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ELT control wire? |
Hello,
I'm installing an ACK E01 ELT in my Sundowner. ACK supplies a 16-foot
extension cable to connect the ELT control panel to the ELT. Given the ELT
location in the Sundowner - all the way back in the tail - this is probably
not long enough.
The ACK manual says that you can use a cable up to 150 feet, but they
don't say anything about what kind of cable to use. I figured that using
the same as they did, would be pretty safe. Their cable says:
E166160
UL ( actually, it's the UL backwards-R+U symbol )
AWM
20251
26AWG
60 degrees C
150V
Physically, it's a four-conductor UTP ( telephone ) wire with an ordinary
RJ11 crimpon connector at one end, and a FEMALE RJ11 crimp-on socket at the
other end. I have not been able to find one of these female crimp-on
sockets. I have found a similar cable assembly - with an identical socket -
that was 25 feet long. But it has no reassuring verbiage printed on the
cable. Well, the female end does say "Made in China" :).
Anybody know of a source for the Right Stuff? The UL-blessed cable? The
female crimp-on connector? Or will the Wrong Stuff work just fine -
assuming that I ohm it out first, because I suspect that the pins might be
reversed....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | System Design, Load analysis |
I've finished a rough load analysis.
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/airplane_amp_draw.xls
I'm not sure I have it all correct (actually, I know I don't), and the
results kind of surprise me. It looks like my busses are going to
require some more thought about the grouping and whatnot, as my amp
draws are higher than I expected on the main bus. I'm open to all
suggestions Bob. I planned a 70A main alternator (Kelly Aerospace unit)
and a B&C 20A aux. Not sure what to do now. Lots of electronics, lots
of amp draw :)
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System Design, Load analysis |
>
> I've finished a rough load analysis.
>
> http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/airplane_amp_draw.xls
>
snip
> ---
> Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
>
I like the spreadsheet you've done. I did something similar for my RV-6. I
did notice that a number of loads you have such as flaps are transient and
of short duration. Perhaps these should not be included when calculating the
total amp draw?
Stan Blanton
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Billie Lamb" <N254BL(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe "reconditioning" |
I have the same situation and the instructions say to start the unit with
the voltage reduced by 50%. I plan to reduce it a bit below that and slowly
increase it to condition it to "condition" the electrolytics.
Bill Lamb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim & Jeanette Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe "reconditioning"
<joberst@cox-internet.com>
>
> I have a Whelen strobe light power supply that I haven't powered up in
many
> years. I have heard that the capacitors in strobe supplies "weaken" after
> long periods of inactivity, and have to be slowly trained up to normal
> voltage. Can anyone advise me on how to do this?
>
> Jim Oberst
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: System Design, Load analysis |
I would think the same goes for speed brakes and landing gear pump. You can
draw from the battery for the brief time that they are actuated. Once you
have the plane cool, you might want to turn off the compressor while
climbing for the additional power, unless it is really hot you also don't
need it in cruise and maybe not even in decent. These too are a "maybe"
load.
Remember, you only "need" about 80% of your total load as alternator
capacity. If you exceed that you need to turn stuff off that really isn't
necessary. Some energy management.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Design, Load analysis
>
> >
> > I've finished a rough load analysis.
> >
> > http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/airplane_amp_draw.xls
> >
> snip
> > ---
> > Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
> >
>
> I like the spreadsheet you've done. I did something similar for my RV-6.
I
> did notice that a number of loads you have such as flaps are transient and
> of short duration. Perhaps these should not be included when calculating
the
> total amp draw?
>
> Stan Blanton
> RV-6
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Russ Werner" <russ(at)maui.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT control wire? |
It's just telephone cable. Not critical by any means. Buy the 25 footer
and clip off the male end. Reinstall a new male end where you need it and
be sure to swap wires accordingly, as the ELT wires cross enroute while the
telephone wires don't. Your ELT won't work properly if you just connect it
like a telephone! Making it that simple would be too easy!! When you're
finished, get out your sharpie and write "Made in USA"!
Russ
----- Original Message ----- >
> I'm installing an ACK E01 ELT in my Sundowner. ACK supplies a 16-foot
> extension cable to connect the ELT control panel to the ELT. Given the
ELT
> location in the Sundowner - all the way back in the tail - this is
probably
> not long enough.
>
> The ACK manual says that you can use a cable up to 150 feet, but they
> don't say anything about what kind of cable to use. I figured that using
> the same as they did, would be pretty safe. Their cable says:
>
> E166160
> UL ( actually, it's the UL backwards-R+U symbol )
> AWM
> 20251
> 26AWG
> 60 degrees C
> 150V
>
> Physically, it's a four-conductor UTP ( telephone ) wire with an
ordinary
> RJ11 crimpon connector at one end, and a FEMALE RJ11 crimp-on socket at
the
> other end. I have not been able to find one of these female crimp-on
> sockets. I have found a similar cable assembly - with an identical
socket -
> that was 25 feet long. But it has no reassuring verbiage printed on the
> cable. Well, the female end does say "Made in China" :).
>
> Anybody know of a source for the Right Stuff? The UL-blessed cable?
The
> female crimp-on connector? Or will the Wrong Stuff work just fine -
> assuming that I ohm it out first, because I suspect that the pins might be
> reversed....
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System Design, Load analysis |
>
>
>I've finished a rough load analysis.
>
>http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/airplane_amp_draw.xls
>
>I'm not sure I have it all correct (actually, I know I don't), and the
>results kind of surprise me. It looks like my busses are going to
>require some more thought about the grouping and whatnot, as my amp
>draws are higher than I expected on the main bus. I'm open to all
>suggestions Bob. I planned a 70A main alternator (Kelly Aerospace unit)
>and a B&C 20A aux. Not sure what to do now. Lots of electronics, lots
>of amp draw :)
See, isn't it a good thing we do this before you buy your
alternators? :-)
Good piece of work on the spread sheet. Now . . .
Drive all the intermittent loads like trim motors, flap motors,
landing gear pumps, pump relays, etc to zero. Battery will supply
momentary "overload" for these items.
(are you going to wig/wag landing and taxi lights?)
Add in battery contactors at 0.8A each
Add another column after Cruise. Call it IFR Cruise. Change
the old Cruise to VFR Cruise.
IFR Cruise has no exterior lights and probably no A/C
VFR Cruise has exterior lights and no pitot heat.
A/C will probably run only during ground ops and during
climbout to altitude. Probably not during decent and
maybe during taxi.
Let's see how this impacts your totals. DAVE S . . .
are you watching this? Any suggestions?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Switches |
>
>Bob,
>
>I have read your opinions regarding avionics master switches.
>
>If a specific avionics item does not have it's own switch, do you recommend
>putting one in? It appears to me that if you had redundant avionics
>(electric AI for example), in an alternator failure situation and wanded to
>preserve battery, you would want to turn off the redundant instrements
>unless they were needed. As such, items like an attitude indicator, turn &
>bank, that do not have thier own internal switch, could justify having one.
>(not all ganged up on a single master switch for all avionics, just switches
>for those that don't have thier own.)
>
>- Jim
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Switchable ammeter shunts |
Bob,
There are two schools of thought as to the placement of the external
ammeter shunt. If placed in the Alternator "B" lead, you can moniter the
charging function of the alternator, which is probably the most important
function of the ammeter.
However, it would be nice to also be able to assess "load". Would it
not be feazable to place a second external shunt in the "big wire" line from
the battery contactors to the main bus. The connection of each shunt to the
ammeter being controlled by a SPDT mini-toggle placed next to the ammeter, so
that you could select to assess "charging" or "load". I would envision
following the charging function most of the time. The "load" mode would be
important largely for ground equipment checks, and in the event of an
alternator failure, to assess priorities for power conservation. Thanks
LRE
FEW Mustang
Firewall Forward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stan Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe "reconditioning" |
>
> I have a Whelen strobe light power supply that I haven't powered up in
many
> years. I have heard that the capacitors in strobe supplies "weaken" after
> long periods of inactivity, and have to be slowly trained up to normal
> voltage. Can anyone advise me on how to do this?
>
> Jim Oberst
>
I spoke with Whelen about this this very subject last week. The person I
talked with, Jeff Argersinger, told me that it was only a concern if the
unit was one of the older "DF" dual flash units as opposed to the newer "CF"
comet flash units. The CF units first appeared in the early to mid 90's.
Supposedly the newer units have better capacitors.
Stan Blanton
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Diode Bridge Rectifiers vs. Others |
I abbreviate this to save space:
My comment regarding the Radio Shack device NOT being 25A is only to say "be careful
with ratings"
FWB and most diodes are never rated for DC continuous. You might not discover your
mistake until you were in trouble.
Your comment regarding the 100BGQ030 not being 100 Amps---I never said that it
was. But it IS specified at 50% squarewave. So that's 50A continuous; (I know
that's much more than we need). And to keep the temperature down, rating the device
even lower gives it plenty of margin for this job. And a lower loss too.
Actually, the 100BGQ030 mounts with two screws, but I have built a little mount
for the thing. The RS part WOULD certainly do the job for most airplanes, but
I still think the whopping big Schottky diode is a perfect solution for the task
at hand.
Thanks,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switchable ammeter shunts |
>
>Bob,
> There are two schools of thought as to the placement of the external
>ammeter shunt. If placed in the Alternator "B" lead, you can moniter the
>charging function of the alternator, which is probably the most important
>function of the ammeter.
> However, it would be nice to also be able to assess "load". Would it
>not be feazable to place a second external shunt in the "big wire" line from
>the battery contactors to the main bus. The connection of each shunt to the
>ammeter being controlled by a SPDT mini-toggle placed next to the ammeter, so
>that you could select to assess "charging" or "load". I would envision
>following the charging function most of the time. The "load" mode would be
>important largely for ground equipment checks, and in the event of an
>alternator failure, to assess priorities for power conservation. Thanks
If you wire the alternator b-lead as shown in the Z-drawings,
putting a shunt in the main bus feeder would only show bus loads.
This value would be equal to alternator output minus that which
the battery is taking on to increase its state of charge.
How would another current measurement help you operate and/or
debug your airplane? Obviously, we can add shunts and voltmeter
taps in lots of places around the system. You need to analyze
the time and dollars to add such features against the value
of having them. In other words, what failures do you anticipate
that are easier to (1) detect in flight and/or (2) troubleshoot
and fix because you have this extra data?
The way I make these decisions is to write the pilot's
operating handbook section that deals with this new feature.
Suppose somebody besides you is flying the airplane, under
what conditions would this new feature be useful to the
pilot and what would you write down as a procedure for
interpreting the data and reacting to it? Same thing for
pages of a maintenance manual. What kinds of failures
will enjoy faster resolution for having installed the
feature and how would you instruct a mechanic to use it?
If the outcome of this documentation exercise shows some
real advantages for having these features, then by all
means add them in.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: loadmeter/voltmeter |
>
>Speaking of which, Bob, I was planning to use one of your
>loadmeter/voltmeters in my RV-6 project and was disappointed that you
>discontinued them. I held off buying one until I was closer to needing
>it and now they are no more. Are you thinking about selling them again?
>I'll buy one.
>
>Ed Holyoke
No plans at the moment. In fact, I opened my mouth
too early and offered bare boards for those who
wanted to assemble their own clones of this instrument.
Because the boards had a couple of mistakes which
needed cut-n-paste repairs, I trashed the balance
of the boards.
I'll see if I can re-lay the boards in ExpressPCB
(with the errors fixed) and post the artwork along
with all the drawings for assembly.
Just need a few spare hours . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Switches |
>
>Bob,
>
>I have read your opinions regarding avionics master switches.
>
>If a specific avionics item does not have it's own switch, do you recommend
>putting one in? It appears to me that if you had redundant avionics
>(electric AI for example), in an alternator failure situation and wanded to
>preserve battery, you would want to turn off the redundant instrements
>unless they were needed. As such, items like an attitude indicator, turn &
>bank, that do not have thier own internal switch, could justify having one.
>(not all ganged up on a single master switch for all avionics, just switches
>for those that don't have thier own.)
I started to reply to this earlier and see that I hit
the "send" button too soon . . .
If you're doing an airplane with an e-bus, then being
able to control everything on the bus might have some
effect on your options for best endurance. If you've
got two engine driven power sources, maybe it doesn't
matter whether you can control ALL equipment items
powered from the e-bus. If you're going dual-bat/dual-alt,
then it's and even smaller issue because of the
extra output of the SD-20.
I don't like to put multiple electro-whizzies on one
switch . . . this generates a single point of failure
for all those devices. Whether or not you need to
add switches to anything not supplied with switch
depends on your system architecture, power generation
equipment and a load analysis.
The goal is to have no more switches than are absolutely
necessary for situations requiring loads to be shed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a solenoid
with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a traditional
type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same as
in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered, let go,
then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a momentary
switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side of
the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use the
traditional primer?
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switchable ammeter shunts |
Sorry to be so dense.
But am I to understand, that with the ammeter shunt in the "B" lead as
per the Z diagrams, that in the event of alternator failure, ie charging amps
=O, then the ammeter will show the current discharge load on the batteries?
That is what I'm looking for.
I am fully aware of cost benefit ratios. Many of us deal on a daily
basis with life threatening risk. The key is to use preplanning to reduce
and or manage risk to as low a level as possible.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Primer |
ACS Electric Solenoid Engine Pimer Valve P/N 05-29823 is an electric valve. You
need to tee into the fuel line from the electric boost pump, usually at the
engine fuel pump inlet, then to the solenoid primer valve, then to the
cylinder(s). Turn the electric boost pump on, then turn the solenoid valve on
and fuel flows to the cylinder(s). I used a ON-ON-(ON) switch S700-2-5) from
AreoElectric Connection.
Richard Reynolds
Gary Liming wrote:
>
> The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a solenoid
> with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a traditional
> type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same as
> in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered, let go,
> then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a momentary
> switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
> traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side of
> the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use the
> traditional primer?
>
> Gary Liming
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT control wire? |
Try molex pn 87031-0413. See there web site at www.molex.com
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: <jerry(at)tr2.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT control wire?
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm installing an ACK E01 ELT in my Sundowner. ACK supplies a 16-foot
> extension cable to connect the ELT control panel to the ELT. Given the
ELT
> location in the Sundowner - all the way back in the tail - this is
probably
> not long enough.
>
> The ACK manual says that you can use a cable up to 150 feet, but they
> don't say anything about what kind of cable to use. I figured that using
> the same as they did, would be pretty safe. Their cable says:
>
> E166160
> UL ( actually, it's the UL backwards-R+U symbol )
> AWM
> 20251
> 26AWG
> 60 degrees C
> 150V
>
> Physically, it's a four-conductor UTP ( telephone ) wire with an
ordinary
> RJ11 crimpon connector at one end, and a FEMALE RJ11 crimp-on socket at
the
> other end. I have not been able to find one of these female crimp-on
> sockets. I have found a similar cable assembly - with an identical
socket -
> that was 25 feet long. But it has no reassuring verbiage printed on the
> cable. Well, the female end does say "Made in China" :).
>
> Anybody know of a source for the Right Stuff? The UL-blessed cable?
The
> female crimp-on connector? Or will the Wrong Stuff work just fine -
> assuming that I ohm it out first, because I suspect that the pins might be
> reversed....
>
> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Primer |
What are you doing with a high wing setup and no electrical fuel pump
=(;o(((, I was thinking it is a small fuel pump, now I'm stucked with a
valve only =(;o((.
Any good idea how to solve this easely?
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Primer
>
> ACS Electric Solenoid Engine Pimer Valve P/N 05-29823 is an electric
valve. You
> need to tee into the fuel line from the electric boost pump, usually at
the
> engine fuel pump inlet, then to the solenoid primer valve, then to the
> cylinder(s). Turn the electric boost pump on, then turn the solenoid valve
on
> and fuel flows to the cylinder(s). I used a ON-ON-(ON) switch S700-2-5)
from
> AreoElectric Connection.
>
> Richard Reynolds
>
> Gary Liming wrote:
>
> >
> > The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a
solenoid
> > with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a traditional
> > type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same
as
> > in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered, let
go,
> > then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a momentary
> > switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
> > traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side
of
> > the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use the
> > traditional primer?
> >
> > Gary Liming
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey Steenson" <steenson(at)flash.net> |
| Subject: | Solenoid Wire Size |
Dear Bob and list members,
One of the biggest variables I've noticed in the various manuals and wiring aids
is the wire size called out for the starter contactor. Bob's diagrams have
them sensibly small, Bingelis would have fatter wires; my own kit manufacturer
recommends 12 ga. for both relays and the field circuits!
My question is, what kind of current draw does one typically see to activate the
starter solenoid?
Many thanks,
Jeffrey Steenson
ABQ, NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Is there a way I can reach you to discuss this instead of typing it all
>out? I've contacted SFS and Xbow again, and pretty much have been told
>the same thing again.
>
>SFS, Robert, 208.389.9959
>Xbow, Dean, 408.965.3300
>
>The xbow is DO-160 for class 23. It takes it about 1 second to boot up,
>starts sending data, and takes about 60 seconds to calibrate itself to
>straight and level. They suggest an avionics master, but say it
>shouldn't require it.
Okay! Sound's like they did their homework.
>SFS is a little different. The certified version from CFS is DO-160
>Delta hardware and DO-178 Alpha software. However, the certified
>version hardware is slightly different than the SFS stuff. The SFS
>stuff was DO-160 tested, but nothing was really done to correct any of
>the small problems found (not really sure what was found though)...this
>stuff was corrected in the hardware of the CFS certified stuff. When
>the unit sees below 9.5 volts, its shuts down and waits for the voltage
>to come back up. It has about a 90 second boot cycle. The first 5-6
>seconds are done in MSDOS 6.22 where it checks for the cards and
>whatnot. Then in another 5-6 seconds, it switches over to its
>proprietary software that does CRC checks, opens files, and gets the
>unit fired up. This takes another 75-80 seconds, so 90 seconds total.
>If during the time it is opening a file the voltage drops and it shuts
>down, it can mess things up. Also, it can loose (fry) the voice
>annunciation chip.
Hmmmm . . . not so good. Does this system boot from mechanical
drives?
>These are the reasons I saw fit for a AV master. With the master, I can
>protect the SFS. By adding an AV ALT FEED along with a diode in series
>with the AV MASTER, I can reduce the chance of an AV MASTER switch
>ruining my day. I realize this is adding parts to fix someone elses
>problem (SFS), but it seems the only logical way.
How does this help you? Basically you have an accessory that
cannot be in the boot-up process while you crank the engine.
You can approach this from one of two ways (1) protect the
battery that supplies this system from engine cranking
loads or (2) don't turn it on until after the engine is
started.
Adding another bus with extra switches doesn't help you
optimize either of these choices.
Z-14 has two independent alternator/battery systems
with cross-feed capability. This allows you to get
34 a.h. of cranking performance, from relatively small,
inexpensive batteries. You have total independence
of each system in normal operating modes and either
bus has access to 4 different sources of power should
something fail.
The benefits of this architecture and opportunities
for system reliability and weight savings with greatest
attention to simplicity are inarguably solid.
How would you operate the switches for the second bus
to make the SFS system live comfortably in your
airplane? You can . . .
(1) shield the aux system from cranking loads and
crank with only the main battery in which case the
pampered systems can run from the aux bus and come
up and down with the bus. This is the simplest
approach for numbers of controls on the panel -OR-
(2) you can put power switches in series with pampered
systems and don't turn them on until after the engine
is started. This is sort of what you have with the
added bus . . .
In the first case, you loose the robust cranking
performance of paralleled 17 a.h. batteries
and may have to upsize the main battery to offset
this loss of performance. To get EQUAL performance,
the main battery might have to go up to 32 a.h.
and the aux battery reduced to as small as 10 a.h.
You loose the simple yearly maintenance of the
"musical batteries" game . . .
I think the second choice is the more attractive.
Don't hose up the advantages of the Z-14 capabilities
for the rest of the airplane by being super-accommodating
to one piece of equipment that may not belong in
an airplane.
Just add power control switches for the pampered
systems, run them from either bus as dictated by
your load analysis results and don't turn them on
until after the engine is running. No extra busses
or switches needed. No modifications needed to the
battery sizing and maintenance. No changes to the
relative robustness of an electrical system that folks
flying $million$ doctor-killers can only dream about.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | System Design, Load analysis |
Yeah, that would help a lot. Flaps, hyd pump, etc. I'm hoping to stay
with the 70A and 20A.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan
Blanton
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Design, Load analysis
>
> I've finished a rough load analysis.
>
> http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/airplane_amp_draw.xls
>
snip
> ---
> Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
>
I like the spreadsheet you've done. I did something similar for my RV-6.
I
did notice that a number of loads you have such as flaps are transient
and
of short duration. Perhaps these should not be included when calculating
the
total amp draw?
Stan Blanton
RV-6
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Primer |
>
>
>The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a solenoid
>with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a traditional
>type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same as
>in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered, let go,
>then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a momentary
>switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
>traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side of
>the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use the
>traditional primer?
>
>Gary Liming
Figure Z-1 and Z-11 show how to wire this with a single S700-2-50
switch. The Beech Skipper used this technique and other undoubtedly
do too. It would be my choice.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switchable ammeter shunts |
>
>Sorry to be so dense.
Not a problem.
>But am I to understand, that with the ammeter shunt in the "B" lead as
>per the Z diagrams, that in the event of alternator failure, ie charging amps
>=O, then the ammeter will show the current discharge load on the batteries?
>That is what I'm looking for.
Why? When the alternator quits and you go into the max
endurance mode, how would you use indicated
battery drain to make any kind of decision in flight?
>I am fully aware of cost benefit ratios. Many of us deal on a daily
>basis with life threatening risk. The key is to use preplanning to reduce
>and or manage risk to as low a level as possible.
Exactly! Battery loads in an alternator out situation is a
pre-arranged condition that you've already mapped out in
detail as part of the system design and operating procedure.
I don't see how instrumenting this parameter adds anything
to your in-flight comfort.
The critical parameter under battery only ops is voltage.
When the voltage is below 11.0 volts, you are nearly
out of juice and the battery ammeter would still be showing
a value within a few percent of what it was when the
battery was fully charged.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Solenoid Wire Size |
>
>
>Dear Bob and list members,
>
>One of the biggest variables I've noticed in the various manuals and
>wiring aids is the wire size called out for the starter contactor. Bob's
>diagrams have them sensibly small, Bingelis would have fatter wires; my
>own kit manufacturer recommends 12 ga. for both relays and the field circuits!
>
>My question is, what kind of current draw does one typically see to
>activate the starter solenoid?
>
>Many thanks,
>Jeffrey Steenson
>ABQ, NM
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
Some designers try to mitigate effects of starter solenoid inrush
currents using fatter wires to maintain the snappy solenoid
engagement with 20+ amps inrush.
I prefer to use the B&C approach to always using a good quality
starter contactor in series with the starter and wiring
the starter's built in solenoid as shown in the Z-drawings.
In this case, starter button current is about 4A.
You can't do this with PM motor starters so Figure Z-22 becomes
an attractive option where starter button current drops
to about 100 mA.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | RE: System architecture |
Since there are 2 SFS, one on each buss, the first solution below is not
real feasible. The second is what I had in mind with the AV MASTER.
I understand what you are saying. Always have. Basically, don't add
parts when parts aren't needed. My shortcoming in understanding was
that since I figured I had to have the switch for the SFS anyway, I
might as well make it a convenience feature too, and add the other
avionics behind it. Then, I thought by adding the diode in line, and
the ALT AV FEED, I would have a truly backed up system, where it would
be easy to shed loads, one switch failure wouldn't ruin my day, etc,
etc.
Since Z14 is your design, can you step me through a failure analysis of
it. Ie, what you would do when an alternator failed, both alts out, a
contactor failed, how you would shed load, etc, etc? Then I can fully
understand your intentions, and see if I see any way to better tailor it
to my needs.
With my glass cockpit with redundant SFS displays, 2 gps's, 2 coms, etc,
it might serve me well to be able to dump all the loads easily except
those required. However, this can likely be accomplished with just
careful planning of the 2 busses and what to put where, or it might
serve me well to put the ESS stuff on an ESS buss fed by a diode (with
ALT FEED) off the MAIN or AUX buss.
I think I still need to look at what I have on what buss. I don't think
I have this correct yet. I'll be sending another spreadsheet soon.
Basically, I still have a lot of decisions to make :(
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: System architecture
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Is there a way I can reach you to discuss this instead of typing it all
>out? I've contacted SFS and Xbow again, and pretty much have been told
>the same thing again.
>
>SFS, Robert, 208.389.9959
>Xbow, Dean, 408.965.3300
>
>The xbow is DO-160 for class 23. It takes it about 1 second to boot
up,
>starts sending data, and takes about 60 seconds to calibrate itself to
>straight and level. They suggest an avionics master, but say it
>shouldn't require it.
Okay! Sound's like they did their homework.
>SFS is a little different. The certified version from CFS is DO-160
>Delta hardware and DO-178 Alpha software. However, the certified
>version hardware is slightly different than the SFS stuff. The SFS
>stuff was DO-160 tested, but nothing was really done to correct any of
>the small problems found (not really sure what was found though)...this
>stuff was corrected in the hardware of the CFS certified stuff. When
>the unit sees below 9.5 volts, its shuts down and waits for the voltage
>to come back up. It has about a 90 second boot cycle. The first 5-6
>seconds are done in MSDOS 6.22 where it checks for the cards and
>whatnot. Then in another 5-6 seconds, it switches over to its
>proprietary software that does CRC checks, opens files, and gets the
>unit fired up. This takes another 75-80 seconds, so 90 seconds total.
>If during the time it is opening a file the voltage drops and it shuts
>down, it can mess things up. Also, it can loose (fry) the voice
>annunciation chip.
Hmmmm . . . not so good. Does this system boot from mechanical
drives?
>These are the reasons I saw fit for a AV master. With the master, I
can
>protect the SFS. By adding an AV ALT FEED along with a diode in series
>with the AV MASTER, I can reduce the chance of an AV MASTER switch
>ruining my day. I realize this is adding parts to fix someone elses
>problem (SFS), but it seems the only logical way.
How does this help you? Basically you have an accessory that
cannot be in the boot-up process while you crank the engine.
You can approach this from one of two ways (1) protect the
battery that supplies this system from engine cranking
loads or (2) don't turn it on until after the engine is
started.
Adding another bus with extra switches doesn't help you
optimize either of these choices.
Z-14 has two independent alternator/battery systems
with cross-feed capability. This allows you to get
34 a.h. of cranking performance, from relatively small,
inexpensive batteries. You have total independence
of each system in normal operating modes and either
bus has access to 4 different sources of power should
something fail.
The benefits of this architecture and opportunities
for system reliability and weight savings with greatest
attention to simplicity are inarguably solid.
How would you operate the switches for the second bus
to make the SFS system live comfortably in your
airplane? You can . . .
(1) shield the aux system from cranking loads and
crank with only the main battery in which case the
pampered systems can run from the aux bus and come
up and down with the bus. This is the simplest
approach for numbers of controls on the panel -OR-
(2) you can put power switches in series with pampered
systems and don't turn them on until after the engine
is started. This is sort of what you have with the
added bus . . .
In the first case, you loose the robust cranking
performance of paralleled 17 a.h. batteries
and may have to upsize the main battery to offset
this loss of performance. To get EQUAL performance,
the main battery might have to go up to 32 a.h.
and the aux battery reduced to as small as 10 a.h.
You loose the simple yearly maintenance of the
"musical batteries" game . . .
I think the second choice is the more attractive.
Don't hose up the advantages of the Z-14 capabilities
for the rest of the airplane by being super-accommodating
to one piece of equipment that may not belong in
an airplane.
Just add power control switches for the pampered
systems, run them from either bus as dictated by
your load analysis results and don't turn them on
until after the engine is running. No extra busses
or switches needed. No modifications needed to the
battery sizing and maintenance. No changes to the
relative robustness of an electrical system that folks
flying $million$ doctor-killers can only dream about.
Bob . . .
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System Design, Load analysis |
Update at
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/airplane_amp_draw_3.xls
I moved a couple things to the AUX BUSS (warning and panel dimmable
lights). I changed the intermittent loads to 0.00.
No, no wig-wag on landing and taxi lights. Both lights are attached to
the gear door. The taxi lights will point out to the side more, whereas
the landing light will be focused together and up a little. Added IFR
Cruise column, and updated it accordingly.
I highlighted the components in yellow that I'm not sure I have on the
right buss. In an earlier email, I asked Bob to explain the failure
mode operation of the z14, so I could better understand and might be
able to better place these yellow components.
Without sounding crazy, since I have to hide the SFS behind a switch to
protect it during starting, I think I would still prefer to create an
avionics buss with this switch and a diode, with an alt av feed from
before the contactor. This will make it easy to shed load in an alt out
situation...turn both batt and alt off, and flip the alt av feed. This
will have just the basics on it to get me to a landing location at which
point I can turn the batt contactors back on and do flaps, lock the gear
for safety (it has a manual dump, so lowering it doesn't require power),
etc, etc. Is this really that crazy? To me it adds convenience (all
off avionics), protection of the "pampered" SFS, robustness with the alt
feed sw, and simplicity during failure modes (turn on alt av feed and
then turn both alts and bats off until ready to land). Am I crazy in
this thinking?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | alternator sizing |
After staring at my buss structure and amp loads over lunch, I've
determined that I'm probably in trouble with my proposed 70A/20A combo.
Especially considering I might attempt to add some sort of de-ice
capability in the future. Therefore, I am considering upgrading the 20A
aux alternator I had planned to another 70A unit from Kelly Aerospace
that mounts on one of the 2 vacuum pads.
This will give me more than enough current for my current system, and
will provide some room for future expansion. However, is adding a
larger alternator like that have any drawbacks, besides the added
weight?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Mic wiring on 760 VHF |
>I am wiring a Microair 760 to my experimental (Pitts S1S) and have looked at
>your "shop notes" for the Mic Jack wiring. If I'm only wiring a single Mic,
>am I correct in assuming the red wire is unused?
yes
> Also, in your diagram, the
>shielding for Mic is shown to be terminated to ground at both ends (radio
>connector and jack) but the Microair manual says to only connect the
>shielding to ground at the radio end and leave insulated at the mic/ phones
>end. I'm new to electrical wiring and don't want to make an expensive
>mistake. Any help on the subject would be appreciated,
My harness uses the microphone shield AS A GROUND
connection for the microphone jack. The jack needs
to be insulated from the airframe using non-metalic
mounting bracket or washers like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#s890-1
you can download our instructions for the Microair 760
installation at:
http://216.55.140.222/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Starter-engaged Warning |
Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on" warning light? The
goal is to let you know if you have a stuck starter or starter contactor.
Is there a best spot on the starter to attach a warning light that will let
you know it is engaged? Or would you just put it on the starter side of the
starter contactor and assume that if the contactor is closed (and the
starter button is not pressed), you have a problem.
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Primer |
A Facet electric fuel pump would solve your problem. AS sells them and you
can find them locally at auto parts stores for a few dollars less.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Primer
>
> What are you doing with a high wing setup and no electrical fuel pump
> =(;o(((, I was thinking it is a small fuel pump, now I'm stucked with a
> valve only =(;o((.
>
> Any good idea how to solve this easely?
>
> Werner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Primer
>
>
>
> >
> > ACS Electric Solenoid Engine Pimer Valve P/N 05-29823 is an electric
> valve. You
> > need to tee into the fuel line from the electric boost pump, usually at
> the
> > engine fuel pump inlet, then to the solenoid primer valve, then to the
> > cylinder(s). Turn the electric boost pump on, then turn the solenoid
valve
> on
> > and fuel flows to the cylinder(s). I used a ON-ON-(ON) switch S700-2-5)
> from
> > AreoElectric Connection.
> >
> > Richard Reynolds
> >
> > Gary Liming wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a
> solenoid
> > > with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a
traditional
> > > type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same
> as
> > > in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered,
let
> go,
> > > then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a
momentary
> > > switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
> > > traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side
> of
> > > the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use
the
> > > traditional primer?
> > >
> > > Gary Liming
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andy Karmy" <andy(at)karmy.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
I hooked mine to the "I" terminal on the starter contactor. From what I understand
it's energized when the contactor is online. The key is that as long as the
starter contactor is off, then the starter is dead. That's why it's there after
all...
- Andy Karmy
RV9A - Wiring
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:11:08 -0600
>
>Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on" warning light? The
>goal is to let you know if you have a stuck starter or starter contactor.
>Is there a best spot on the starter to attach a warning light that will let
>you know it is engaged? Or would you just put it on the starter side of the
>starter contactor and assume that if the contactor is closed (and the
>starter button is not pressed), you have a problem.
>
>- Jim
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mic wiring on 760 VHF |
And the harness works with the jacks insulated. I ordered one from Bob some
time ago and had no problems installing the 760.
R
> My harness uses the microphone shield AS A GROUND
> connection for the microphone jack. The jack needs
> to be insulated from the airframe using non-metalic
> mounting bracket or washers like
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#s890-1
>
> you can download our instructions for the Microair 760
> installation at:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
> | over the man who cannot read them. |
> | - Mark Twain |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Starter-engaged Warning |
> Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on"
> warning light?
Is it really necessary? Sometimes during hot starts, I leave the
starter engaged after the engine begins firing, and it is quite easy to
hear the starter gear whining even at a few hundred engine rpm. My
starter is a Lamar, maybe others can't be heard. The old carburetted
cars often needed to be cranked a little past where they started firing,
and I recall the same sound with them.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 215 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Location of the battery contactor and bus |
A few weeks ago there was an exchange about the location of the battery bus
for rear-mounted batteries (as in my Lancair Super ES). Bob Nuckolls wrote:
Battery contactors are next to batteries and battery busses are next to
batteries.
Question: Why do the battery contactor and battery bus need to go next to
the battery? What specifically would be wrong with putting the battery in
back and the battery contactor and bus up front, as if the battery were up
front?
Confession: I am an "acres of breakers" person, though outside of that I
am closely following Z-14, possibly with one large and one small battery
and smaller relays for the crossfeed and #2 contactor. I had originally
planned to put the breakers for the battery bus near the other breakers up
front. I am wondering why I should put them in back.
I'm watching the ongoing Lancair threads closely, and really apprciate all
the help. Thanks.
Dan O'Brien
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
>
>Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on" warning light? The
>goal is to let you know if you have a stuck starter or starter contactor.
>Is there a best spot on the starter to attach a warning light that will let
>you know it is engaged? Or would you just put it on the starter side of the
>starter contactor and assume that if the contactor is closed (and the
>starter button is not pressed), you have a problem.
Most automotive starter contactors pressed into aviation
duty have an "I" terminal that was used to augment
ignition coil current in the early days of 12v cars.
This same terminal can be used to drive an indicator
light on the panel. You would want to use an in-line
fuse or fusible link at the contactor.
If your contactor doesn't have this feature, you
can simply drive the light from the donwstream side
of the starter contactor either at the starter or
contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
Jim,
I have a low voltage light wired to the start solenoid. As long as
there is power to the starter solenoid the light is lit. When the voltage
is removed from the starter solenoid, the light goes out.
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter-engaged Warning
>
> Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on" warning light? The
> goal is to let you know if you have a stuck starter or starter contactor.
> Is there a best spot on the starter to attach a warning light that will
let
> you know it is engaged? Or would you just put it on the starter side of
the
> starter contactor and assume that if the contactor is closed (and the
> starter button is not pressed), you have a problem.
>
> - Jim
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Electric Solenoid Engine Primer Valve |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Gary Liming
"The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a solenoid
with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a traditional
type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same as
in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered, let go,
then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a momentary
switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side of
the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use the
traditional primer? Gary Liming"
10/22/2002
Hello Gary, If you read all the words carefully you will see that this device
(P/N 05-29823) is an electrically controlled primer valve, not a primer.
The normal mechanical primer is a cylindrical pump by which you manually
force some fuel into some or all of the cylinder induction areas of the
engine.
If the aircraft has an electrically driven fuel pump it is possible to plumb
it so that the electrically driven fuel pump can supply fuel to the cylinder
induction areas. Some means is needed to control when fuel should be
permitted to flow to the cylinder induction areas other than just turning the
electrically driven fuel pump ON or OFF. The electric solenoid engine primer
valve serves this function.
If the aircraft doesn't have some source for providing fuel pressure prior to
engine start this ON or OFF valve is unable to prime the engine by itself.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of the battery bus |
>
>A few weeks ago there was an exchange about the location of the battery bus
>for rear-mounted batteries (as in my Lancair Super ES). Bob Nuckolls wrote:
>
> Battery contactors are next to batteries and battery busses are
> next to
>batteries.
>
>Question: Why do the battery contactor and battery bus need to go next to
>the battery? What specifically would be wrong with putting the battery in
>back and the battery contactor and bus up front, as if the battery were up
>front?
Battery busses are always hot. This means you minimize the
length of the feeder between the battery (unprotected) to
the bus where protected feeders branch off. If you
want to mount the bus remotely, then you need to put a relay
or contactor in series with the extended feeder and then
it's no longer a "battery bus"
>Confession: I am an "acres of breakers" person, though outside of that I
>am closely following Z-14, possibly with one large and one small battery
>and smaller relays for the crossfeed and #2 contactor. I had originally
>planned to put the breakers for the battery bus near the other breakers up
>front. I am wondering why I should put them in back.
The general rule of thumb for crash safety is to have
no always hot wires protected at more than 5A . . . and
it's REALLY nice if that protection is a 5A or smaller
fuse - MUCH faster than a breaker. If the feeder between
battery (+) and the battery bus is kept short, this minimizes
the length of always-hot, unprotected wire. This can usually
be on the order of a few inches when the battery bus is a fuse
block adjacent to the battery contactor.
If you extend the feeder, then it has much higher fault
currents than the recommended design maximum and this
calls for addition of another master-switch like control
to allow killing that feeder in times of distress.
If it were my project and breakers on the panel were still
the order of the day for a main and aux bus, the battery
busses would still be in the back and fabricated with
fuseblocks.
>I'm watching the ongoing Lancair threads closely, and really apprciate all
>the help. Thanks.
>Dan O'Brien
>Lancair Super ES
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
I looked at my contactor (purchased from B&C) & it has the "I" terminal
along with an "S" terminal.
I assume the correct wiring would be to have the "S" terminal hooked to the
starter button & power and the "I" terminal to ground with another line from
the "I" terminal to the indictor light. The two larger terminals are the
starter power contacts that should be fed with 2AWG lines.
That all sound correct?
Thanks!
- Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter-engaged Warning
>
> >
> >Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on" warning light?
The
> >goal is to let you know if you have a stuck starter or starter contactor.
> >Is there a best spot on the starter to attach a warning light that will
let
> >you know it is engaged? Or would you just put it on the starter side of
the
> >starter contactor and assume that if the contactor is closed (and the
> >starter button is not pressed), you have a problem.
>
> Most automotive starter contactors pressed into aviation
> duty have an "I" terminal that was used to augment
> ignition coil current in the early days of 12v cars.
> This same terminal can be used to drive an indicator
> light on the panel. You would want to use an in-line
> fuse or fusible link at the contactor.
>
> If your contactor doesn't have this feature, you
> can simply drive the light from the donwstream side
> of the starter contactor either at the starter or
> contactor.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, CMDR David" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - ALTERNATOR OPERATION |
Bob,
What is the preferred way of operating Z12 with two uneven sized alternators
- both together, which involves really closely matching the voltage
regulators, or is it more realistic to just run one at a time, the big one,
with the baby on standby?
David Francis, VH-ZEE, RV7, Australia
Email: David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
In a message dated 10/22/02 8:35:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jpack(at)igs3.com
writes:
<< I assume the correct wiring would be to have the "S" terminal hooked to the
starter button & power and the "I" terminal to ground with another line from
the "I" terminal to the indictor light. >>
I can't speak for the B&C starter contactor but on my start contactor from
Van's connecting the "I" terminal to ground would short the battery to ground
(briefly, and with considerable smoke) when you engage the start contactor.
I believe the correct approach is to run the "I" terminal to the indicator
light with a return from the light to ground. On my contactor, the "I"
terminal connects to the battery terminals when the contactor is engaged. If
I'm wrong I hope somebody straightens me out before I put power on this thing.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, electrical stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
Bob,
In your LED wiring diagram, you have a 220 ohm resister in both parallel &
series with the LED.
The 12 volt LED's purchased from RS have only a 220 ohm resister in series
with the LED.
Why the difference? Do I need to put a resister in parallel with the Radio
Shack 12V LED before I use it as a low volts warning light?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: > Re: Electric Primer |
Just a little note: If your throttle linkage is through the firewall and mechanical,
and the choke and prop control and maybe a couple other linkages, too; it
seems a small thing to use a mechanical primer on the engine side of the firewall
so you can hand-prop the bird if you REALLY need to.
Eric
"An acre of performance is worth the whole world of promise."
James Howell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Electric Gyro question |
Hi Folks,
Noted something that struck me as unusual. I have Bob's basic 2 battery, one
alternator architecture, with main bus and essential bus connected by the four-post
diode and by a separate switch for e-bus only operations. When I put
the main master switch or aux master switch (or both) on, the electric artificial
horizon begins spinning but the "off" flag stays put. When I just turn
on the E-Bus Alternate Feed switch, the gyro starts spinning and the "off" flag
disappears. What does it take to make that flag disappear? All other devices
connected to the essential bus appear to operate normally no matter what
switch configuration I use. Is that flag trying to tell me something? Thanks
for any ideas on this.
Bill Yamokoski,
First Flight a week ago, still working on radio noise
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Gyro question |
Hi Folks,
Forgot to clarify in my first posting that the Art. Horizon is connected to
the essential bus. thanks again.
Bill Yamokoski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Gyro question |
>
>
>Hi Folks,
> Noted something that struck me as unusual. I have Bob's basic 2
> battery, one alternator architecture, with main bus and essential bus
> connected by the four-post diode and by a separate switch for e-bus only
> operations. When I put the main master switch or aux master switch (or
> both) on, the electric artificial horizon begins spinning but the "off"
> flag stays put. When I just turn on the E-Bus Alternate Feed switch,
> the gyro starts spinning and the "off" flag disappears. What does it
> take to make that flag disappear? All other devices connected to the
> essential bus appear to operate normally no matter what switch
> configuration I use. Is that flag trying to tell me something? Thanks
> for any ideas on this.
Is your engine running during this test or are you operating battery
only? The flag is calibrated to drop at some level of supply voltage
below a normal bus voltage. The diode voltage drop in the e-bus
normal feed path subtracted from a battery-only voltage level may
indeed be too low to raise the flag. If your engine is running and
the main bus is above 13.8, then I suspect the flag will raise.
The fact that you can close the e-bus alternate feed switch
and raise the flag re-enforces this hypothesis.
Do you have a voltmeter in the airplane? While the flag is
down, what is the voltage reading? Is your voltmeter reading
the main bus or the e-bus?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>
>In your LED wiring diagram, you have a 220 ohm resister in both parallel &
>series with the LED.
>
>The 12 volt LED's purchased from RS have only a 220 ohm resister in series
>with the LED.
>
>Why the difference? Do I need to put a resister in parallel with the Radio
>Shack 12V LED before I use it as a low volts warning light?
We need to make the LED emulate an incandescent lamp which
will NOT illuminate at the very current levels that flow
in this annunicator circuit in the OFF state. Without the
parallel resistor, the LED glows dimly even when the bus
voltage is normal.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Electric Gyro question |
I assume this is with engine off? (ie, no alternator)
If so, what you are experiencing is the voltage drop across the diode
here, which is sending the flag out. There is a small voltage drop
across the diode, and the flag is telling you about a low voltage
condition. When you switch on the ESS feed switch, you bypass the diode
(and any other voltage drops in the system) and get enough voltage.
Start the engine, and the flag will disappear (as long as your charging
system is working).
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
William Yamokoski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Gyro question
Hi Folks,
Noted something that struck me as unusual. I have Bob's basic 2
battery, one alternator architecture, with main bus and essential bus
connected by the four-post diode and by a separate switch for e-bus only
operations. When I put the main master switch or aux master switch (or
both) on, the electric artificial horizon begins spinning but the "off"
flag stays put. When I just turn on the E-Bus Alternate Feed switch,
the gyro starts spinning and the "off" flag disappears. What does it
take to make that flag disappear? All other devices connected to the
essential bus appear to operate normally no matter what switch
configuration I use. Is that flag trying to tell me something?
Thanks for any ideas on this.
Bill Yamokoski,
First Flight a week ago, still working on radio noise
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Hildebrand <phildebrand(at)pritchardindustrial.com> |
| Subject: | Electric Gyro question |
Is the attitude indicator an RC Allan. When I first installed a
RC Allan electric attitude indicator in my Mooney as a standby, the low
voltage flag would stay on until the engine was running. I contacted RC
Allan and they said that the flag setting was too high and that it could
be adjusted. It would appear that the units are shipped from the
factory with the settings so close to 12 volts that a battery without an
alternator would not be enough for the flag to drop. I sent the unit
back to the factory and asked them to adjust it to the lowest voltage
possible as the unit was for standby and I wanted it to work in the
worst case scenario (seized engine, no alternator output). When I got
it back I never had any problems. By adding the second bus maybe your
voltage increases enough to drop the flag. Have you done an accurate
voltage check on both buses?
On another note I am wondering what Attitude indicator you
actually have as I am looking for an alternative to the RC Allan for my
Lancair ES. The Goodrich model is twice the price but based on what I
have heard it my be a good buy on the long run?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
William Yamokoski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electric Gyro question
Hi Folks,
Noted something that struck me as unusual. I have Bob's basic 2
battery, one alternator architecture, with main bus and essential bus
connected by the four-post diode and by a separate switch for e-bus only
operations. When I put the main master switch or aux master switch (or
both) on, the electric artificial horizon begins spinning but the "off"
flag stays put. When I just turn on the E-Bus Alternate Feed switch,
the gyro starts spinning and the "off" flag disappears. What does it
take to make that flag disappear? All other devices connected to the
essential bus appear to operate normally no matter what switch
configuration I use. Is that flag trying to tell me something?
Thanks for any ideas on this.
Bill Yamokoski,
First Flight a week ago, still working on radio noise
=
=
=
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
><< I assume the correct wiring would be to have the "S" terminal hooked to the
> starter button & power and the "I" terminal to ground with another line from
> the "I" terminal to the indictor light. >>
>
>I can't speak for the B&C starter contactor but on my start contactor from
>Van's connecting the "I" terminal to ground would short the battery to ground
>(briefly, and with considerable smoke) when you engage the start contactor.
>I believe the correct approach is to run the "I" terminal to the indicator
>light with a return from the light to ground. On my contactor, the "I"
>terminal connects to the battery terminals when the contactor is engaged. If
>I'm wrong I hope somebody straightens me out before I put power on this thing.
Where did anyone see a wiring diagram that suggests this "I"
terminal be connected to anything?
The "I" terminal becomes common to both FAT terminals on the
contactor when the contactor closes. Connecting this terminal
to ground would produce predictable, unpleasant results. I note
that only a few of the Z-drawings call out a "case ground" for
the lower end of the contactor coil . . . but note that only
three connections to on the symbol suggest a terminal-post/nut
connection. The lower end comes out the bottom of the symbol
to a "firewall ground" . . .
Wiring details called out in the catalog listing for this
style contactor can be viewed at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/S702Wire.jpg
I'll do some work on the Z-drawings to amplify these
facts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-12 ALTERNATOR OPERATION |
>
>
>Bob,
>What is the preferred way of operating Z12 with two uneven sized alternators
>- both together, which involves really closely matching the voltage
>regulators, or is it more realistic to just run one at a time, the big one,
>with the baby on standby?
The small alternator is intended for use only when the
main alternator is unavailable.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of the battery bus |
Bob,
In setting up my contactors according to a slight modification of your
Z-11, I have put both contactors (main and starter), on the engine side
of the firewall. This seemed attractive until I read your comments about
battery and battery bus leads.
I realized that I have the hot lead (unprotected) from the battery going
through the firewall (using a grommet and typical SS firewall shield) to
the main contactor. In hindsight, it would have been better to place the
main contactor on the inside of the firewall.
Of course, I can take it all apart and move the battery contactor to the
aft side of the firewall. However, I am wondering is there is another
(reasonable) way to recover from this mistake.
My question is: is there a reasonable way to add protection for the lead
from the battery to the contactor? It would have to tolerate starter
current but open under a dead short of the lead to ground.
The battery lead will be relatively short since this is an RV-6A and the
battery is behind the center of firewall.
Richard Dudley
RV-6A, firewall forward
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >A few weeks ago there was an exchange about the location of the battery bus
> >for rear-mounted batteries (as in my Lancair Super ES). Bob Nuckolls wrote:
> >
> > Battery contactors are next to batteries and battery busses are
> > next to
> >batteries.
> >
> >Question: Why do the battery contactor and battery bus need to go next to
> >the battery? What specifically would be wrong with putting the battery in
> >back and the battery contactor and bus up front, as if the battery were up
> >front?
>
> Battery busses are always hot. This means you minimize the
> length of the feeder between the battery (unprotected) to
> the bus where protected feeders branch off. If you
> want to mount the bus remotely, then you need to put a relay
> or contactor in series with the extended feeder and then
> it's no longer a "battery bus"
>
> >Confession: I am an "acres of breakers" person, though outside of that I
> >am closely following Z-14, possibly with one large and one small battery
> >and smaller relays for the crossfeed and #2 contactor. I had originally
> >planned to put the breakers for the battery bus near the other breakers up
> >front. I am wondering why I should put them in back.
>
> The general rule of thumb for crash safety is to have
> no always hot wires protected at more than 5A . . . and
> it's REALLY nice if that protection is a 5A or smaller
> fuse - MUCH faster than a breaker. If the feeder between
> battery (+) and the battery bus is kept short, this minimizes
> the length of always-hot, unprotected wire. This can usually
> be on the order of a few inches when the battery bus is a fuse
> block adjacent to the battery contactor.
>
> If you extend the feeder, then it has much higher fault
> currents than the recommended design maximum and this
> calls for addition of another master-switch like control
> to allow killing that feeder in times of distress.
>
> If it were my project and breakers on the panel were still
> the order of the day for a main and aux bus, the battery
> busses would still be in the back and fabricated with
> fuseblocks.
>
> >I'm watching the ongoing Lancair threads closely, and really apprciate all
> >the help. Thanks.
> >Dan O'Brien
> >Lancair Super ES
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
> | over the man who cannot read them. |
> | - Mark Twain |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of the battery bus |
Bob,
In setting up my contactors according to a slight modification of your
Z-11, I have put both contactors (main and starter), on the engine side
of the firewall. This seemed attractive until I read your comments about
battery and battery bus leads.
I realized that I have the hot lead (unprotected) from the battery going
through the firewall (using a grommet and typical SS firewall shield) to
the main contactor. In hindsight, it would have been better to place the
main contactor on the inside of the firewall.
Of course, I can take it all apart and move the battery contactor to the
aft side of the firewall. However, I am wondering is there is another
(reasonable) way to recover from this mistake.
My question is: is there a reasonable way to add protection for the lead
from the battery to the contactor? It would have to tolerate starter
current but open under a dead short of the lead to ground.
The battery lead will be relatively short since this is an RV-6A and the
battery is behind the center of firewall.
Richard Dudley
RV-6A, firewall forward
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >A few weeks ago there was an exchange about the location of the battery bus
> >for rear-mounted batteries (as in my Lancair Super ES). Bob Nuckolls wrote:
> >
> > Battery contactors are next to batteries and battery busses are
> > next to
> >batteries.
> >
> >Question: Why do the battery contactor and battery bus need to go next to
> >the battery? What specifically would be wrong with putting the battery in
> >back and the battery contactor and bus up front, as if the battery were up
> >front?
>
> Battery busses are always hot. This means you minimize the
> length of the feeder between the battery (unprotected) to
> the bus where protected feeders branch off. If you
> want to mount the bus remotely, then you need to put a relay
> or contactor in series with the extended feeder and then
> it's no longer a "battery bus"
>
> >Confession: I am an "acres of breakers" person, though outside of that I
> >am closely following Z-14, possibly with one large and one small battery
> >and smaller relays for the crossfeed and #2 contactor. I had originally
> >planned to put the breakers for the battery bus near the other breakers up
> >front. I am wondering why I should put them in back.
>
> The general rule of thumb for crash safety is to have
> no always hot wires protected at more than 5A . . . and
> it's REALLY nice if that protection is a 5A or smaller
> fuse - MUCH faster than a breaker. If the feeder between
> battery (+) and the battery bus is kept short, this minimizes
> the length of always-hot, unprotected wire. This can usually
> be on the order of a few inches when the battery bus is a fuse
> block adjacent to the battery contactor.
>
> If you extend the feeder, then it has much higher fault
> currents than the recommended design maximum and this
> calls for addition of another master-switch like control
> to allow killing that feeder in times of distress.
>
> If it were my project and breakers on the panel were still
> the order of the day for a main and aux bus, the battery
> busses would still be in the back and fabricated with
> fuseblocks.
>
> >I'm watching the ongoing Lancair threads closely, and really apprciate all
> >the help. Thanks.
> >Dan O'Brien
> >Lancair Super ES
>
> Bob . . .
>
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
> | The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
> | over the man who cannot read them. |
> | - Mark Twain |
> |-------------------------------------------------------|
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
Ed,
You're one of the few that are actually flying. So, can you hear your starter
with the engine running? Or does your headset/exhaust drown out all other
sounds? If you can hear the starter whirring away do you really need a warning
light to tell you that?
Mark
Quoting Ed Anderson :
>
>
> Jim,
> I have a low voltage light wired to the start solenoid. As long as
> there is power to the starter solenoid the light is lit. When the
> voltage
> is removed from the starter solenoid, the light goes out.
>
> Ed Anderson
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter-engaged Warning
>
>
> >
> > Where would be the best place to insert a "starter-on" warning light?
> The
> > goal is to let you know if you have a stuck starter or starter
> contactor.
> > Is there a best spot on the starter to attach a warning light that
> will
> let
> > you know it is engaged? Or would you just put it on the starter side
> of
> the
> > starter contactor and assume that if the contactor is closed (and the
> > starter button is not pressed), you have a problem.
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Comm Audio Wiring |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>David Domeier (davidd010(at)earthlink.net) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 at
>14:10:28
>
>Tuesday, October 22, 2002
>
>How can I wire my airplane to use 2 comm radios without
>going to the expense of an audio panel?
>
>David Domeier
Sure, see this drawing.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/DualCommAudio.pdf
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
| Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
| or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
| help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
| capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
| and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
| -Lazarus Long- |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of the battery bus |
>
>Bob,
>
>In setting up my contactors according to a slight modification of your
>Z-11, I have put both contactors (main and starter), on the engine side
>of the firewall. This seemed attractive until I read your comments about
>battery and battery bus leads.
>
>I realized that I have the hot lead (unprotected) from the battery going
>through the firewall (using a grommet and typical SS firewall shield) to
>the main contactor. In hindsight, it would have been better to place the
>main contactor on the inside of the firewall.
>
>Of course, I can take it all apart and move the battery contactor to the
>aft side of the firewall. However, I am wondering is there is another
>(reasonable) way to recover from this mistake.
>
>My question is: is there a reasonable way to add protection for the lead
>from the battery to the contactor? It would have to tolerate starter
>current but open under a dead short of the lead to ground.
>
>The battery lead will be relatively short since this is an RV-6A and the
>battery is behind the center of firewall.
This installation was recommended by Vans for years and may
still be. The risks are small but certainly not zero. You'd
never get this "certified" but then, if you don't fly your
airplane into a big pile of rocks, it's not much of an issue.
Do good periodic inspection on this penetration to make sure
that isolation of the hot wire is not being degraded with age
and service and you'll probably be okay.
If you ever sell the airplane, make sure the new owner is
aware of the recommendation for extra inspection. This
is very much out of the ordinary for light aircraft.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Gyro question |
Hi Folks,
Thanks for the replies. Looks like the diode gets the nod here :) I have
a voltage readout in the Grand Rapids engine monitor. That instrument isn't
fed by my essential bus so I can't really compare voltages from the main vs. essential
busses. If the flag shows up while the engine is on, then I'll worry.
My education in electrons continues.......
Bill Yamokoski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter-engaged Warning |
>
>Ed,
>You're one of the few that are actually flying. So, can you hear your
>starter
>with the engine running? Or does your headset/exhaust drown out all other
>sounds? If you can hear the starter whirring away do you really need a
>warning
>light to tell you that?
>Mark
A bit of history might help here. In the certified world, there
are many instances of stuck starter contactors wherein the
pilot was unaware of the event and damage was done.
MOST of these events were on lower priced single engine aircraft
using contactors not well suited for starter control service . . .
we won't go into naming names here. Of course, conventional
wisdom in the certified world was not to make it easy to
improve on the suitability of the contactor by (ughhh!)
putting an AUTOMOTIVE device on in place of the junk . . .
"I know, let's put a light on the panel to tell the pilot
when the contactor sticks!
It's easier to add a Band-Aid to a certified ship than
it is to fix a problem.
In our airplanes, we're using very robust starter
contactors so the likelihood of this happening is
at least an order of magnitude lower . . . but again,
it is not zero.
This begs the question, "Will we hear the results of
this event and shut things down in time to prevent severe
damage?" It also begs the question, "Will we always
keep an eye on the light to make sure it goes out
when the starter button is released?"
We can debate the merits of adding this feature for
days but it won't change the facts . . . the chances
of a stuck contactor are not zero, the chances of
being distracted and being unaware of the event
are not zero, and the chances of a warning light
going unnoticed are not zero either.
Bottom line is that the vast majority of light
singles do not have this light and in the grand
scheme of things, the certified stuff wears out
or breaks far more often than they are destroyed
by stuck contactors. It's a real toss up. I probably
wouldn't put one on my airplane unless it was included
in an annunciator array that shows lots of other
good things to know and is certain to be observed
more often than some lowly light tucked away somewhere
on the panel like the certified ships.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Looking for two pin shielded wire...like the three pin shielded wire
>(S906-3-22). I've bought a bunch of the three pin and my wiring for my
>radios calls for two pin shielded. I would hate to use three pin with an
>unused circuit - just like two single pin shielded...an extra shield.
>
>Thanks,
>Ralph Capen
Don't have any in our inventory. It's available from
most electronic supply houses but not in tefzel.
You'd have to order probably a minimum of 100'
to get it in the right stuff from anywhere.
It's not a big deal to cut off an unused wire
and ignore it. You might check with a local avionics
shop and see if they would sell you short pieces.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of the battery bus |
Thanks, Bob.
I am concluding that it is worth the time and effort to re-work the
layout and put the battery contactor inside. Not that I plan to fly into
a pile of rocks but with the contactor inside there is less question as
well as need to explain.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >In setting up my contactors according to a slight modification of your
> >Z-11, I have put both contactors (main and starter), on the engine side
> >of the firewall. This seemed attractive until I read your comments about
> >battery and battery bus leads.
> >
> >I realized that I have the hot lead (unprotected) from the battery going
> >through the firewall (using a grommet and typical SS firewall shield) to
> >the main contactor. In hindsight, it would have been better to place the
> >main contactor on the inside of the firewall.
> >
> >Of course, I can take it all apart and move the battery contactor to the
> >aft side of the firewall. However, I am wondering is there is another
> >(reasonable) way to recover from this mistake.
> >
> >My question is: is there a reasonable way to add protection for the lead
> >from the battery to the contactor? It would have to tolerate starter
> >current but open under a dead short of the lead to ground.
> >
> >The battery lead will be relatively short since this is an RV-6A and the
> >battery is behind the center of firewall.
>
> This installation was recommended by Vans for years and may
> still be. The risks are small but certainly not zero. You'd
> never get this "certified" but then, if you don't fly your
> airplane into a big pile of rocks, it's not much of an issue.
> Do good periodic inspection on this penetration to make sure
> that isolation of the hot wire is not being degraded with age
> and service and you'll probably be okay.
>
> If you ever sell the airplane, make sure the new owner is
> aware of the recommendation for extra inspection. This
> is very much out of the ordinary for light aircraft.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | LED Dimmer Switch |
Bob,
I am trying to hook up an LED warning panel for main & aux alternator
failure, x-feed on, starter on & low oil pressure warn.
I have tried hooking up an LED warning panel using LEDs with parallel &
series 220 ohm resters instead of lamps. I used the Zener Diode 1N4745A as
the dimmer, but get no ruduction in the LED brightness.
Any suggestions on where I am going wrong?
- Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Loadmeter reappears with alt field voltage |
Bob, and others,
Bob has mentioned in a prior post that the transient suppression of the formerly
available loadmeter circuit board is not needed. That means that the dual
ammeter/voltmeter needs only connection to the shunt(s) used to measure current
output from the alternator(s). Westach is now making these meters available,
in the 'what's new' section of their site. Bob mentioned that the 13 to
15 volt range was inexplicably done in red in the picture on their web site!
I ordered one, and had them change the 13 to 15 volt range to green. There is
a six week wait, as they sold out of the first batch.
Bob has mentioned how valuable is it to have field voltage available for troubleshooting.
One of the problems with the original loadmeter, which is just
an ammeter scaled for your particular alternator in %, was that measuring the
field voltage from the alternator gave an miscalibrated voltage reading on the
voltmeter scale which read roughly 10 to 17 volts. Back home on the ground
you could look up the true voltage from a table. With the circuitry of Bob's
loadmeter no longer available, this is not an option anyway. However, if you
are willing to use the ammeter scale, which reads 0 to 100%, and is linear--no
expanded scale issues--you can press this into service by using a spring-loaded
double pole switch to shift the loadmeter from the shunt(s) to read the field
voltage.
When you want to check field voltage, just push the spring-loaded switch and
read it from the loadmeter. The appropriate series resistor is easy to calculate.
Say you want a 0 to 20 volt scale, so that each 5% marking on the leadmeter
was 1 volt. The loadmeter is a 1 ma movement with a 50 millivolt voltage
drop at full scale: calculates to 50 ohms. The series resistor would be 20
volts divided by 1 ma, or 20,000 ohms. We can ignore the internal resistance
of the meter here.
Here is what I'm doing for my two alternators, one of which has a field and
the other a permanent magnet. The S200-2-50 switch is on-on-(on). The first
position reads current output of alternator 1, the second is alternator 2, and
the spring-loaded third position reads voltage from the field circuit on the
loadmeter side. If you have one alternator, then a on-(on) DPDT switch would
shift the loadmeter from the current reading shunt to the voltage reading resistor
from the field circuit.
Bob, it might help to put a simple diagram on the 'Connection, so that people
who wish to use this feature can do so. I've got the diagram in my head,
but I'm afraid the verbal description was opaque.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
>
>Bob,
>
>I am trying to hook up an LED warning panel for main & aux alternator
>failure, x-feed on, starter on & low oil pressure warn.
>
>I have tried hooking up an LED warning panel using LEDs with parallel &
>series 220 ohm resters instead of lamps. I used the Zener Diode 1N4745A as
>the dimmer, but get no ruduction in the LED brightness.
>
>Any suggestions on where I am going wrong?
You probably have the zener backwards. It sounds like
you've got it wired such that the zener is FORWARD
biased wherein the voltage drop is about the same
as an ordinary diode . . . 0.7 volts.
Reversing the zener causes the voltage drop to
increase to the value of the zener's rating. In
the case of a 1N4745, the rating is 16 volts.
This will drop ALL of your applied voltage and
the LED will be dark.
Try zeners over the range of 1N4735 (6.2v) to
1N4739 (9.1 volts) to find the one that provides
the desired dimming characteristic.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of the battery bus |
>
>Thanks, Bob.
>I am concluding that it is worth the time and effort to re-work the
>layout and put the battery contactor inside. Not that I plan to fly into
>a pile of rocks but with the contactor inside there is less question as
>well as need to explain.
Can't argue with that logic . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca> |
| Subject: | Bob's words of wisdom |
> Bob . . .
>
> | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> | -Lazarus Long- |
>
>
Hi Bob;
I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and
look forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better
ones.
Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RX-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB (reserved)
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
Bob's words of wisdom
Bob . . .
| Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
| or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
| help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
| capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
| and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
| -Lazarus Long- |
Hi Bob;
I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and look forward
to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better ones.
Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B rotary powered
RX-9endurance (FWF)
C-FSTB (reserved)
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jaye and Scott Jackson <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Bob's words of wisdom |
This one caught my eye,too.
I wonder if some will think Bob thinks their question is stupid?
Or would one have to be stupid to think that?
Hmm..
Scott in Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
>
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> > | -Lazarus Long- |
> >
> >
> Hi Bob;
> I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and
> look forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better
> ones.
> Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> Turbo 13B rotary powered
> RX-9endurance (FWF)
> C-FSTB (reserved)
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob's words of wisdom
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
>
> | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
>
> | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
>
> | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
>
> | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
>
> | -Lazarus Long- |
>
>
> Hi Bob;
>
> I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and look
forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better ones.
>
>
> Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
>
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
>
> Turbo 13B rotary powered
>
> RX-9endurance (FWF)
>
> C-FSTB (reserved)
>
>
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Question |
Anyone know why the Odyssey Battery(#680) has a metal case. Doesn't seem to
be removable. Could it be used as a battery box? Thanks.
Byron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Bob's words of wisdom |
Bob,
Tell them where it comes from. These young guys may not know about the late
Robert Heinlein and his great stories and words of wisdom.
Terry Watson
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch", (from The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress by Robert A Heinlein.)
This one caught my eye,too.
I wonder if some will think Bob thinks their question is stupid?
Or would one have to be stupid to think that?
Hmm..
Scott in Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
>
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> > | -Lazarus Long- |
> >
> >
> Hi Bob;
> I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and
> look forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better
> ones.
> Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> Turbo 13B rotary powered
> RX-9endurance (FWF)
> C-FSTB (reserved)
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob's words of wisdom
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
>
> | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
>
> | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
>
> | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
>
> | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
>
> | -Lazarus Long- |
>
>
> Hi Bob;
>
> I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and look
forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better ones.
>
>
> Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
>
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bob's words of wisdom |
Terry Watson wrote:
>
>
> Bob,
>
> Tell them where it comes from. These young guys may not know about the late
> Robert Heinlein and his great stories and words of wisdom.
>
> Terry Watson
>
> "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch", (from The Moon is a Harsh
> Mistress by Robert A Heinlein.)
>
*** IMHO Heinlein's best book. The words about insurance companies are
alone worth the price of admission. On Heinlein's pay-as-you-go moon, you
"buy" life insurance by placing a bet with your bookie. You bet that you'll
die that year, he bets you won't, and figures the odds... Well, isn't that
what real insurance companies do? Explains a lot....
- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry(at)tr2.com )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Billie Lamb" <N254BL(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bob's words of wisdom |
Or might it cause someone to not ask a question they should have asked for
fear of looking stupid?
Or is it stupid to fear looking stupid?
Bill Lamb
Ocklawaha
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
>
> This one caught my eye,too.
> I wonder if some will think Bob thinks their question is stupid?
> Or would one have to be stupid to think that?
> Hmm..
> Scott in Vancouver
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
>
>
>
> >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> > > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> > > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> > > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> > > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> > > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> > > | -Lazarus Long- |
> > >
> > >
> > Hi Bob;
> > I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature
and
> > look forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better
> > ones.
> > Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
> >
> > S. Todd Bartrim
> > Turbo 13B rotary powered
> > RX-9endurance (FWF)
> > C-FSTB (reserved)
> > http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob's words of wisdom
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> >
> > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> >
> > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> >
> > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> >
> > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> >
> > | -Lazarus Long- |
> >
> >
> > Hi Bob;
> >
> > I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and look
> forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better ones.
> >
> >
> > Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
> >
> >
> > S. Todd Bartrim
> >
> > Turbo 13B rotary powered
> >
> > RX-9endurance (FWF)
> >
> > C-FSTB (reserved)
> >
> >
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Bob's words of wisdom |
Nope. Surely not realising you're stupid is an essential part of being
stupid?!
For example:
1) People who park their trolleys in supermarkets (US: grocery stores) so
that they block the aisle
2) People who drive in the middle lane when the left (US: right) one is
empty, not realising they are taking up two lanes (one-side overtaking rule
does not apply in US, so this one may be completely meaningless to most of
the readers - sorry :-( )
3) People who walk slowly side-by-side down a narrow pedestrian tunnel on
the Tube (US: subway) in the rush-hour not realising everyone is backing up
behind them
4) People who really think that how they look is more important than their
safety
Apologies, I think this thread set me off on my soapbox...
Regards,
Jeremy
Europa XS Monowheel G-EZZA - still making the wings, no electric string in
sight yet...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Billie
Lamb
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
Or might it cause someone to not ask a question they should have asked for
fear of looking stupid?
Or is it stupid to fear looking stupid?
Bill Lamb
Ocklawaha
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
>
> This one caught my eye,too.
> I wonder if some will think Bob thinks their question is stupid?
> Or would one have to be stupid to think that?
> Hmm..
> Scott in Vancouver
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bob's words of wisdom
>
>
>
> >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> > > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> > > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> > > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> > > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> > > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> > > | -Lazarus Long- |
> > >
> > >
> > Hi Bob;
> > I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature
and
> > look forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better
> > ones.
> > Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
> >
> > S. Todd Bartrim
> > Turbo 13B rotary powered
> > RX-9endurance (FWF)
> > C-FSTB (reserved)
> > http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob's words of wisdom
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> >
> > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> >
> > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> >
> > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> >
> > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> >
> > | -Lazarus Long- |
> >
> >
> > Hi Bob;
> >
> > I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and look
> forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better ones.
> >
> >
> > Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
> >
> >
> > S. Todd Bartrim
> >
> > Turbo 13B rotary powered
> >
> > RX-9endurance (FWF)
> >
> > C-FSTB (reserved)
> >
> >
> > TARGET"_blank">http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Question |
Byron,
I don' know for certain about that model, but the Odyssey line can be
had with Metal Jackets - they are used by the motorcycle crowd. Generally
the metal jacketed ones are quite a bit more expensive. Regardling use of
the metal jacket as a battery box, my guess is that is may not be stressed
for the loads it may encounter in an aircraft installations.
Ed Anderson
----- Original Message -----
From: <N89BJ(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Question
>
> Anyone know why the Odyssey Battery(#680) has a metal case. Doesn't seem
to
> be removable. Could it be used as a battery box? Thanks.
>
> Byron
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Gaugler <rgaugler(at)microserve.net> |
| Subject: | Z-11a, Single ECU |
Bob, I am using Z-11a with a single ECU to keep the motor noisy. Not sure
of the best way
to feed it from either battery buss. Two diodes to prevent cross feed would
lower the voltage
in an alternator out situation. One double pole switch could be another
single point failure.
I am thinking about two switches side by side, on-off-on, that have their
handles tied together.
Up would be normal feed from one battery, center is off, and down would be
feed from the
other battery. Any thoughts or suggestions from anyone are always welcome.
That's what
makes this group work so well!
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
I have tried a couple of Zeners and the 9.1volt with a 220 ohm resister in
series with it appears to work for a single LED.
However, when I put more than one LED with 220ohm resistors in parallel to
the LED then none work. (When I bypass the Zener, they work, but at a
dimmer level).
Is there some special trick to making multiple LED's dim?
- Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Dimmer Switch
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >I am trying to hook up an LED warning panel for main & aux alternator
> >failure, x-feed on, starter on & low oil pressure warn.
> >
> >I have tried hooking up an LED warning panel using LEDs with parallel &
> >series 220 ohm resters instead of lamps. I used the Zener Diode 1N4745A
as
> >the dimmer, but get no ruduction in the LED brightness.
> >
> >Any suggestions on where I am going wrong?
>
>
> You probably have the zener backwards. It sounds like
> you've got it wired such that the zener is FORWARD
> biased wherein the voltage drop is about the same
> as an ordinary diode . . . 0.7 volts.
>
> Reversing the zener causes the voltage drop to
> increase to the value of the zener's rating. In
> the case of a 1N4745, the rating is 16 volts.
> This will drop ALL of your applied voltage and
> the LED will be dark.
>
> Try zeners over the range of 1N4735 (6.2v) to
> 1N4739 (9.1 volts) to find the one that provides
> the desired dimming characteristic.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Question |
| From: | Denis Walsh <deniswalsh(at)earthlink.net> |
The more recent RV-7 plans show just that. The steel case has a few
lightening holes put in it, a couple bracing pieces of angles riveted on,
and it is used to hold the battery to the firewall. There is a hold down
bar screwed to the top. I like it.
> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:44:53 -0400
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Question
>
>
>
> Byron,
> I don' know for certain about that model, but the Odyssey line can be
> had with Metal Jackets - they are used by the motorcycle crowd. Generally
> the metal jacketed ones are quite a bit more expensive. Regardling use of
> the metal jacket as a battery box, my guess is that is may not be stressed
> for the loads it may encounter in an aircraft installations.
>
> Ed Anderson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <N89BJ(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Question
>
>
>>
>> Anyone know why the Odyssey Battery(#680) has a metal case. Doesn't seem
> to
>> be removable. Could it be used as a battery box? Thanks.
>>
>> Byron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
>
>I have tried a couple of Zeners and the 9.1volt with a 220 ohm resister in
>series with it appears to work for a single LED.
>
>However, when I put more than one LED with 220ohm resistors in parallel to
>the LED then none work. (When I bypass the Zener, they work, but at a
>dimmer level).
>
>Is there some special trick to making multiple LED's dim?
Each LED needs its own resistor. You cannot parallel
LEDs. Further, depending on whether your group of LEDs
are pulled up to +14v or pulled down to ground, you need
separate dimming control zeners and a two pole switch
to handle the full array of annunciator leds.
See http://216.55.140.222/temp/LED_Dimming.gif
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thoughts from folks wiser than most (was: Bob's |
words of
wisdom)
>
>
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > | Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, |
> > | or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't |
> > | help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal |
> > | capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, |
> > | and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. |
> > | -Lazarus Long- |
> >
> >
>Hi Bob;
> I always enjoy reading your memorable quotes on your signature and
>look forward to next one. I must say though, that this is one the better
>ones.
> Thanks and keep 'em coming. ;-)
I really like the Lazarus Long quotations. Most folks
don't know who he wasn't . . . since he is a fictional
character of exceedingly long life who turns up in
multiple works by Robert Heinlein. I think Bob's
alter-ego(s) show up in his most thought-provoking and
creative works. Can't decide tho if Lazarus Long
or Jubal Hershaw fits the Heinlein model . . . it
may be both!
Both his fictional and serious works are well worth
the effort to acquire and read. One of my favorites
since Jr. High.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bob's words of wisdom |
>
>
>This one caught my eye,too.
>I wonder if some will think Bob thinks their question is stupid?
>Or would one have to be stupid to think that?
>Hmm..
Hmmmm . . .yerself.
It DOES makes one think a bit . . . no?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Question |
>
>Anyone know why the Odyssey Battery(#680) has a metal case. Doesn't seem to
>be removable. Could it be used as a battery box? Thanks.
Why do you want a battery box for an RG battery?
They are totally unnecessary.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Heinlein's words of wisdom |
>
>
>Nope. Surely not realising you're stupid is an essential part of being
>stupid?!
>
>For example:
>
>1) People who park their trolleys in supermarkets (US: grocery stores) so
>that they block the aisle
>2) People who drive in the middle lane when the left (US: right) one is
>empty, not realising they are taking up two lanes (one-side overtaking rule
>does not apply in US, so this one may be completely meaningless to most of
>the readers - sorry :-( )
>3) People who walk slowly side-by-side down a narrow pedestrian tunnel on
>the Tube (US: subway) in the rush-hour not realising everyone is backing up
>behind them
>4) People who really think that how they look is more important than their
>safety
>
>
>
>Apologies, I think this thread set me off on my soapbox...
>
>Regards,
>Jeremy
I would think Mr. Heinlein would characterize those kinds
of behavior as selfishness and uncaring. There are
plenty of intelligent people who practice those things.
Plenty of intelligent people have serious flashes
of stupidity too . . . like strapping one's self into
an airplane with nearly empty tanks and a fuel valve
you can't reach . . . or not calling for local radar
support when you find yourself above an overcast
and NOT on an IFR flight plan . . . went down for
a "look see" based 500 foot ceilings cite by ATIS.
Found the guy wires for a 1500-foot tower.
I'm sure that these are the kinds of things to
which the honorable Mr. Heinlein was referring.
I'm certain he would find the activity on this list
most appropriate to a bunch of folks doing their
best to enjoy (and survive) in a very unforgiving
environment. We're all working hard to avoid walking
into a lion's gage naked, unarmed and carrying
a dead-chicken in each hand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William T Bartlett" <wtbartlett(at)Prodigy.net> |
| Subject: | Re:List: Electric Primer |
Werner: In your case its easy. Tee off your gascolater out line,put an
automotive fuel pump (smallest,cheapest, with between 4 and 15 PSI) on your
firewall and adapt the output of the pump to the 1/8th " primer manifold
(That little soldered-on Ball fitting is a standard AN fitting, but an
1/8th" ferrule from automotive shop will seal well enough). Activate the
pump with a spring loaded on off switch. You just need to learn how many
seconds you need to hold your switch down - probably about 2. You will be
able to hear that pump click. About three clicks should do it. I have a
friend who will buy your valve.
Bill
N7WB
> From: "Werner Schneider" <WernerSchneider(at)compuserve.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Primer
>
>
> What are you doing with a high wing setup and no electrical fuel pump
> =(;o(((, I was thinking it is a small fuel pump, now I'm stucked with a
> valve only =(;o((.
>
> Any good idea how to solve this easely?
>
> Werner
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Girard <fly.ez(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | More words of wisdom |
Bob, I saw this little pearl a few years back.
"Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, Stupidity runs a
close second."
Rick Girard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie and Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
Jim Pack wrote:
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I am trying to hook up an LED warning panel for main & aux alternator
> failure, x-feed on, starter on & low oil pressure warn.
>
> I have tried hooking up an LED warning panel using LEDs with parallel &
> series 220 ohm resters instead of lamps. I used the Zener Diode 1N4745A as
> the dimmer, but get no ruduction in the LED brightness.
>
> Any suggestions on where I am going wrong?
>
> - Jim
>
Jim,
LED's don't function like light bulbs. They are diodes that just happen to emit
light. It takes a 'threshold' voltage to forward bias or light the diode (varies
with the design/color of the LED) and the diode will use a fixed amount of
current to be 'converted' to light. The series resistor is sized to supply the
needed voltage/current to the LED depending on supply voltage. Less than
'threshold' voltage means that the LED doesn't glow. If the voltage is raised
very much above the theshold, current begins to rise (remember it's a diode, not
a resistive load) and the excess current destroys the diode.
LED 'brightness' is varied by pulsing the DC supply voltage with a varying pulse
width. The pulse frequency is high enough that the human eye doesn't notice it,
kind of like TV or movie pictures. Constant DC voltage = max brightness; as the
'on' time percentage of the DC voltage decreases, the LED looks dimmer to the
human eye. Think about strobe lights from your Disco days. :-) The faster the
strobe flashes, the brighter the room looks.
LED dimmers are available & plans for building your own are available, but
either way you are looking at more money/work/complexity than a zener or reostat
to change the voltage.
Charlie
with apologies to the EE's reading my very rough description of electronic
functions.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
Thanks, I was putting another resister in parallel with each LED in
addition to the series resistor.
- Jim
> >I have tried a couple of Zeners and the 9.1volt with a 220 ohm resister
in
> >series with it appears to work for a single LED.
> >
> >However, when I put more than one LED with 220ohm resistors in parallel
to
> >the LED then none work. (When I bypass the Zener, they work, but at a
> >dimmer level).
> >
> >Is there some special trick to making multiple LED's dim?
>
> Each LED needs its own resistor. You cannot parallel
> LEDs. Further, depending on whether your group of LEDs
> are pulled up to +14v or pulled down to ground, you need
> separate dimming control zeners and a two pole switch
> to handle the full array of annunciator leds.
>
> See http://216.55.140.222/temp/LED_Dimming.gif
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Plug for Auto Alternator |
I bought a 60 Amp Honda alternator. Fits well and is mechanically attached
to the plane, but I need to attach it electrically and the 3-pin plug that
normally attaches it to the cars' system is of course not part of the
alternator purchase. How can I locate this plug?
Thanks
Neil Clayton
Cozy MkIV #493
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
>
>
>Thanks, I was putting another resister in parallel with each LED in
>addition to the series resistor.
Oh. That was only necessary for making the LR3 Regulator
believe it was driving a light bulb. The LR3 is a pull-down
type switch for the LED output. So, if you want to dim this
LED along with other LEDs of the pull-down variety, you
would put a resistor in parallel ONLY with the LED for the
LR3, all others run barefoot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter reappears with alt field voltage |
>
>
>Bob, and others,
> Bob has mentioned in a prior post that the transient suppression of
> the formerly available loadmeter circuit board is not needed. That means
> that the dual ammeter/voltmeter needs only connection to the shunt(s)
> used to measure current output from the alternator(s). Westach is now
> making these meters available, in the 'what's new' section of their
> site. Bob mentioned that the 13 to 15 volt range was inexplicably done
> in red in the picture on their web site! I ordered one, and had them
> change the 13 to 15 volt range to green. There is a six week wait, as
> they sold out of the first batch.
Hmmm . . . wonder if the first batch had the wrong colored arc!
> Bob has mentioned how valuable is it to have field voltage available
> for troubleshooting. One of the problems with the original loadmeter,
> which is just an ammeter scaled for your particular alternator in %, was
> that measuring the field voltage from the alternator gave an
> miscalibrated voltage reading on the voltmeter scale which read roughly
> 10 to 17 volts.
Not so. See installation data (link below)
> Back home on the ground you could look up the true voltage from a
> table. With the circuitry of Bob's loadmeter no longer available, this
> is not an option anyway. However, if you are willing to use the ammeter
> scale, which reads 0 to 100%, and is linear--no expanded scale
> issues--you can press this into service by using a spring-loaded double
> pole switch to shift the loadmeter from the shunt(s) to read the field
> voltage.
> When you want to check field voltage, just push the spring-loaded
> switch and read it from the loadmeter. The appropriate series resistor
> is easy to calculate. Say you want a 0 to 20 volt scale, so that each 5%
> marking on the leadmeter was 1 volt. The loadmeter is a 1 ma movement
> with a 50 millivolt voltage drop at full scale: calculates to 50
> ohms. The series resistor would be 20 volts divided by 1 ma, or 20,000
> ohms. We can ignore the internal resistance of the meter here.
Here's a link for a complete data package on the VLM-14 including
installation/operation instructions, schematic-BOM and board layout.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/LM-VM_Data.pdf
Here's a link to an ExpressPCB artwork file that I belive
represents a re-incarnation of the original board minus
the original errors.
CAUTION
. . . check this artwork over for possible
new errors before ordering boards.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/9021-310-1A.pcb
Also, this artwork doesn't represent an optimized layout
for size since I took advantage of ExpressPCB's super
cheap offer of 3 boards for $62 in four days if you put
them on a standard profile . . . which is too big for a
optimized layout but still plenty small and about the
same size as the originals.
> Here is what I'm doing for my two alternators, one of which has a
> field and the other a permanent magnet. The S200-2-50 switch is
> on-on-(on). The first position reads current output of alternator 1, the
> second is alternator 2, and the spring-loaded third position reads
> voltage from the field circuit on the loadmeter side. If you have one
> alternator, then a on-(on) DPDT switch would shift the loadmeter from the
> current reading shunt to the voltage reading resistor from the field circuit.
> Bob, it might help to put a simple diagram on the 'Connection, so
> that people who wish to use this feature can do so. I've got the diagram
> in my head, but I'm afraid the verbal description was opaque.
I don't see how you can do this with a two-pole progressive transfer
like the 2-50 . . . it should take a 4-pole . . . but never mind
now 'cause you can for all practical purposes duplicate the original
product right down to the installation manual and instructions.
Suggest you evaluate the downloads and see if it gives
you a shorter path (with a track record) to success.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-11a, Single ECU |
>
>
>Bob, I am using Z-11a with a single ECU to keep the motor noisy. Not sure
>of the best way
>to feed it from either battery buss. Two diodes to prevent cross feed would
>lower the voltage
>in an alternator out situation. One double pole switch could be another
>single point failure.
>I am thinking about two switches side by side, on-off-on, that have their
>handles tied together.
>Up would be normal feed from one battery, center is off, and down would be
>feed from the
>other battery. Any thoughts or suggestions from anyone are always welcome.
>That's what
>makes this group work so well!
I'd run it via fusible link from the aux battery only. This
is what a second battery is for . . . provide a totally
independent source of power for the engine that is not
also loaded with other goodies.
If push comes to shove, you can always close both battery
contactors and get main battery power to the ECU but if
you've got a less-than-two-year-old battery in the aux
slot, I can't see this happening. How much current does
your ECU draw in cruise?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Dimmer Switch |
Bob,
I thought the LR3 just grounded the low volt warning light contact when the
voltage dropped.
So, you're saying that when I hook the LED with a 220ohm resister in
parallel & one in series to the LR3, that it will not behave like it does on
my breadboard (where I have the other LED's hooked up to the same power
bus)? Do I need to run a separate power line to the LR3 indicators separate
from the other 6 LED's I have hooked up? Or can they all share the same
power line?
When I include one LED with a parallel resistor and the others without, on
the dim setting (through the zener) only those that do not have a resistor
light up. The result is that the LR3 warning light remains dark even when I
connect it to ground. If instead of connecting it to ground on the
breadboard, it is connected to the LR3, will it work in this configuration?
(for example, if in your diagram, one of the LED's had a resister in
parallel with the LED and the others didn't, the one with the parallel
resistor doesn't do it's job).
Sorry for being such a beginner.
- Jim
> >
> >Thanks, I was putting another resister in parallel with each LED in
> >addition to the series resistor.
>
> Oh. That was only necessary for making the LR3 Regulator
> believe it was driving a light bulb. The LR3 is a pull-down
> type switch for the LED output. So, if you want to dim this
> LED along with other LEDs of the pull-down variety, you
> would put a resistor in parallel ONLY with the LED for the
> LR3, all others run barefoot.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent/Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Plug for Auto Alternator |
Neil, I had the same problem. I couldn't find a plug but I eventually used
large size spade connectors from NAPA which fit the wire and slide onto the
alternator, Then secured the wires with a small adel clamp.
--Kent A.
Neil Clayton wrote:
>
> I bought a 60 Amp Honda alternator. Fits well and is mechanically attached
> to the plane, but I need to attach it electrically and the 3-pin plug that
> normally attaches it to the cars' system is of course not part of the
> alternator purchase. How can I locate this plug?
>
> Thanks
> Neil Clayton
> Cozy MkIV #493
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Liming <gary(at)liming.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Solenoid Engine Primer Valve |
>
>AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Gary Liming
>
>"The A Spruce catalog there is an electric primer that describes a solenoid
>with a spring and plunger. Does this arrangement replace a traditional
>type primer the same way - i.e., would the switch be operated the same as
>in throw the switch for 2-3 seconds, and one "squirt" is delivered, let go,
>then throw the switch again, etc.? So would it be wired as a momentary
>switch? Also, the electric primer is cheaper by at least half of the
>traditional ones, and you can leave the primer lines on the other side of
>the firewall. Seems like a no brainer - is there any reason to use the
>traditional primer?
>
>10/22/2002
>
>Hello Gary, If you read all the words carefully you will see that this device
>(P/N 05-29823) is an electrically controlled primer valve, not a primer.
>The normal mechanical primer is a cylindrical pump by which you manually
>force some fuel into some or all of the cylinder induction areas of the
>engine.
Hi OC, and others who responded. I left out 'valve' in the first post,
sorry. I guess I didn't make myself too clear - let me rephrase the question:
I see type cert planes with both boost pump switches and manual (plunger
type) primers - Why?
I suspect they had a good reason to do that, but I don't see it. Just
making sure I am not missing something.
Gary Liming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Odyssey Battery Question |
Thanks Denis,
If Van says its OK, then I'd go for it.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis Walsh" <deniswalsh(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Question
>
> The more recent RV-7 plans show just that. The steel case has a few
> lightening holes put in it, a couple bracing pieces of angles riveted on,
> and it is used to hold the battery to the firewall. There is a hold down
> bar screwed to the top. I like it.
>
> > From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> > Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:44:53 -0400
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Question
> >
> >
> >
> > Byron,
> > I don' know for certain about that model, but the Odyssey line can be
> > had with Metal Jackets - they are used by the motorcycle crowd.
Generally
> > the metal jacketed ones are quite a bit more expensive. Regardling use
of
> > the metal jacket as a battery box, my guess is that is may not be
stressed
> > for the loads it may encounter in an aircraft installations.
> >
> > Ed Anderson
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <N89BJ(at)aol.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey Battery Question
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Anyone know why the Odyssey Battery(#680) has a metal case. Doesn't
seem
> > to
> >> be removable. Could it be used as a battery box? Thanks.
> >>
> >> Byron
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter reappears with alt field voltage |
This is being reposted in plain text hoping that word wrap will work and it
will fit in your browser window. Sorry.
Bob, and others,
Bob has mentioned in a prior post that the transient suppression of the
formerly available loadmeter circuit board is not needed. That means that
the dual ammeter/voltmeter needs only connection to the shunt(s) used to
measure current output from the alternator(s). Westach is now making these
meters available, in the 'what's new' section of their site. Bob mentioned
that the 13 to 15 volt range was inexplicably done in red in the picture on
their web site! I ordered one, and had them change the 13 to 15 volt range
to green. There is a six week wait, as they sold out of the first batch.
Bob has mentioned how valuable is it to have field voltage available for
troubleshooting. One of the problems with the original loadmeter, which is
just an ammeter scaled for your particular alternator in %, was that
measuring the field voltage from the alternator gave an miscalibrated
voltage reading on the voltmeter scale which read roughly 10 to 17 volts.
Back home on the ground you could look up the true voltage from a table.
With the circuitry of Bob's loadmeter no longer available, this is not an
option anyway. However, if you are willing to use the ammeter scale, which
reads 0 to 100%, and is linear--no expanded scale issues--you can press this
into service by using a spring-loaded double pole switch to shift the
loadmeter from the shunt(s) to read the field voltage.
When you want to check field voltage, just push the spring-loaded
switch and read it from the loadmeter. The appropriate series resistor is
easy to calculate. Say you want a 0 to 20 volt scale, so that each 5%
marking on the leadmeter was 1 volt. The loadmeter is a 1 ma movement with
a 50 millivolt voltage drop at full scale: calculates to 50 ohms. The
series resistor would be 20 volts divided by 1 ma, or 20,000 ohms. We can
ignore the internal resistance of the meter here.
Here is what I'm doing for my two alternators, one of which has a field
and the other a permanent magnet. The S200-2-50 switch is on-on-(on). The
first position reads current output of alternator 1, the second is
alternator 2, and the spring-loaded third position reads voltage from the
field circuit on the loadmeter side. If you have one alternator, then a
on-(on) DPDT switch would shift the loadmeter from the current reading shunt
to the voltage reading resistor from the field circuit.
Bob, it might help to put a simple diagram on the 'Connection, so that
people who wish to use this feature can do so. I've got the diagram in my
head, but I'm afraid the verbal description was opaque.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter reappears with alt field voltage |
Yikes! That progressive transfer feature of 2-50 switch was *not* what I
wanted. What I wanted was a double pole, triple throw toggle, one position
spring loaded. This would be for the two alternator situation. Perhaps
describing the one alternator design would illustrate the idea more easily.
The shunt is in the B lead from the alternator. Two wires come from the
shunt and connect to the lower set of fixed contacts on the DPDT switch:
call these left and right. The ammeter connects to the switched pair of
contacts. With the lower set active, the ammeter reads the current through
the shunt. In the other switch postion, which is a momentary spring loaded
position, the ammeter positive side is connected to a 20K resistor which
goes from the left upper switch contact to the field connection. The right
upper contact is grounded, and completes the circuit. The meter is now a
voltmeter-0 to 20.
And the expanded scale voltmeter? Just connect the minus side to
ground, and the positive side to the minus side of the ammeter. It will
read the voltage of the shunt 'downstream' side. When the switch is up, to
read field voltage, the expanded scale voltmeter will read zero--which is
fine, as the field voltage is read only for a brief moment. That is why I
wanted a spring loaded toggle. A momentary DPDT push button would also do,
but is hard to find with push on terminals. Since the field voltage is of
interest only to the owner of the OBAM plane, the brief zero reading on the
voltmeter side should cause no concern.
Now for the two alternator case. A rotary switch with two poles and
three positions would work, but then we lose the push-on connection, and the
spring return from reading field voltage. You would not want the meter
displaying field voltage all the time because you forgot to reset the
switch. I have just found a suitable toggle in the Allied catalog, but it
is a solder unit stock # 70-8619 listed as On-On-(On) and DP3T. This is a
subminiature unit and could easily mount next to the meter. Pigtails leads
could then be connected with the crimp-on knife connects. If you must have
standard toggle switches, then use two: one DPDT to select one of two
alternator shunts, and the second spring-loaded DPDT On-(On) switch to
switch the ammeter between the field voltage resistor-ground pair, and the
shunt pair going to the ammeter.
October 17, 2002 - October 24, 2002
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bg