AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bu
March 17, 2003 - March 28, 2003
> with any experience with this sort of thing and advice on wiring this up?
> Thanks.
>
> Mark Means
>
If the circuit closes when the probe rises then the light or whatever will
come on when there is a good level of oil. I am betting the circuit closes
when the probe falls down. All ya got to do is feed it 12v to one wire,
ground the other and the run the light or signaling device in series through
the 12 v wire. When the circuit is complete, the light comes on, telling you
the motor is about to make real kool metalflake colors in the oil pan... Ha
Ha. Ben Haas. N801BH. V-8 Ford all aluminum Ford in an 801 Zenith in an
801 Zenith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor |
If I remember correctly, one side if the switch is already grounded to
the oil pan.
I put a hi-intensity LED in my panel, connected to +12V on one side via
a (470 or 4700 ohm?) resistor and the other side of the LED to the wire
from the switch.
You could get more fancy: one side of a relay coil to +12V and the other
side of the coil to the switch.
Then use the relay contacts as you see fit to drive a lamp, audible
alarm or whatever.
Finn
Mark Means wrote:
>
>I have an auto conversion in the works with a low oil sensor which I'm not sure
how to hook up to a warning light and hoped someone could offer some advice.
I am afraid to route some juice up to it for fear of damage as I can't find
out (so far) what the usual input is.
>
>When unscrewed from the side of the oil pan it looks like a small rod with a small
donut on it, with a knob on the end to keep the donut from falling off. The
donut is weighted so it hangs in one position. I checked the continuity of
the two wires coming out of the base. Moving the donut up and down against the
rod opens and closes the circuit. Anyone out there with any experience with
this sort of thing and advice on wiring this up? Thanks.
>
>Mark Means
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor |
Bum advice if one side of the switch is grounded already.
Finn
Benford2(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 3/17/2003 9:13:59 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>rgvelocity(at)lmf.net writes:
>
>
>
>
>>When unscrewed from the side of the oil pan it looks like a small rod with
>>a small donut on it, with a knob on the end to keep the donut from falling
>>off. The donut is weighted so it hangs in one position. I checked the
>>continuity of the two wires coming out of the base. Moving the donut up
>>and down against the rod opens and closes the circuit. Anyone out there
>>with any experience with this sort of thing and advice on wiring this up?
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Mark Means
>>
>>
>>
>
>If the circuit closes when the probe rises then the light or whatever will
>come on when there is a good level of oil. I am betting the circuit closes
>when the probe falls down. All ya got to do is feed it 12v to one wire,
>ground the other and the run the light or signaling device in series through
>the 12 v wire. When the circuit is complete, the light comes on, telling you
>the motor is about to make real kool metalflake colors in the oil pan... Ha
>Ha. Ben Haas. N801BH. V-8 Ford all aluminum Ford in an 801 Zenith in an
>801 Zenith
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Microair comm and Flightcom 403 intercom wiring |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Guys,
I'm wiring up a Flightcom 403 intercom to my Microair radio. The intercom wiring
diagram seems pretty clear...the only connections it has to the radio are the
PTT, headphone, mic, and avionics ground (shown tied to the same ground point
as the radio). No problems there. Just wondering about the radio wiring though...does
the Mic Ground (also called Mic Lo, pin 2 on the Microair) need to
be tied to ground to make the communication with the intercom work, or can it
just be left unconnected?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring and fwf...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | relay switch protection |
Another solution would be to put a transorb across the switch that we
wish to protect. An 18V transorb would keep the voltage at a level that
the switch can handle, it will allow the relay to open quickly, and if
it fails shorted, it's no big deal. The shorted transorb would make you
think your switch contacts had stuck shut. There would be nothing
needed across the terminals of the relay coil, no unacceptable failure
modes, and no increase in parts count.
Dave in Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
>
> > Bob has since stopped recommending the use of MOV's and uses diodes
> instead.
> > He
> > has explained the reasoning before but I can't find my notes on it.
> Check
> > the
> > archives.
> >
>
> I know Bob bailed on recommending MOV's, but like you, I don't
> recall
> why. No doubt it was one of the many reasons mentioned in this recent
> thread. Chris
>
My recollection is that Bob said the MOV's were harder for people to
find. The advantage of the MOV over the diode is that it allows the
relay to open more quickly. Bob did some sort of testing that led him
to believe that the difference was not significant, so he has been
recommending diodes ever since.
Dave in Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Canyon <steve.canyon(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | relay switch protection |
David Swartzendruber wrote:
>Another solution would be to put a transorb across the switch that we
>wish to protect. An 18V transorb would keep the voltage at a level that
>the switch can handle, it will allow the relay to open quickly, and if
>it fails shorted, it's no big deal. The shorted transorb would make you
>think your switch contacts had stuck shut. There would be nothing
>needed across the terminals of the relay coil, no unacceptable failure
>modes, and no increase in parts count.
---
Folks, I've probably said enough already (or too much, depending on
your own perspective) but I find this whole notion of how switches,
avionics and other stuff actually works and should be protected totally
lacking in understanding of the physics involved. While most anything
COULD work for awhile, I am at a loss to understand why anyone would be
interested in defying practices for killing transients for many
decades. Diodes are cheap, they work and their failure rate is next to
zero.
Last message on the subject, I promise.
Regards,
Steve
PS: Transorbs do have their places, this just isn't one of them. By
the time the transorb catches any transients, the switch damage has
already occurred. I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested thyrectors or
diacs...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Laurence <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: relay switch protection |
Dave ,
what is a transorb switch?
Can you direct me to a site for more info?
Peter
----- Original Message ----- > Another solution would be to put a transorb
across the switch that we
> wish to protect. An 18V transorb would keep the voltage at a level that
> the switch can handle, it will allow the relay to open quickly, and if
> it fails shorted, it's no big deal. The shorted transorb would make you
> think your switch contacts had stuck shut. There would be nothing
> needed across the terminals of the relay coil, no unacceptable failure
> modes, and no increase in parts count.
>
> Dave in Wichita
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
In a message dated 3/17/2003 10:12:25 AM Mountain Standard Time,
finnlassen(at)netzero.net writes:
>
> Bum advice if one side of the switch is grounded already.
>
> Finn
>
> Benford2(at)aol.com wrote:
>
I read that he said there are TWO wires coming off the sensor. Internally
grounded units have only ONE wire.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Archer Comm antenna hookup |
I'm hooking up my bob archer comm antenna -the one for the wing tips - I lost
the directions?
does this sound right - the center coax cable wire goes to the terminal which connects
to most of the metal on the antenna -the other antenna terminal seams
to be insulated from the rest of the antenna itself - this secound terminal on
the antenna just goes to a smaller section of metal which is insulated from the
rest of the antenna - i'm assuming this would be the ground?
thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fw: Dynon Clock power requirements |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
FYI, passing this along in case it's of interest to anyone else ordering
a Dynon EFIS....
--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Gillian D'Ancicco" <gillian(at)dynondevelopment.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:31:09 -0800
Subject: RE: Clock power?
Mark,
We draw 1 mA typically from the keep alive input. However, we also
charge
our internal battery from this source if the battery is not fully
charged.
Thus, if you ran the instrument off its internal battery and never
recharged
it using the master power, we would draw from the keep alive until our
battery was charged. In this case we could draw up to 2 Amp hours off
your
battery to charge our internal battery.
Gillian C. D'Ancicco
Business Manager
Dynon Avionics Inc.
19501 144th Ave NE
Suite C-500
Woodinville, WA 98072
(425)402-4404 Phone (425)984-1751 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: czechsix(at)juno.com [mailto:czechsix(at)juno.com]
Subject: Clock power?
Hi,
How much power does the internal clock in the EFIS D-10 use from pin 2
(Keep Alive Clock Power) when the main power is off? Assume it's only a
milliamp or so otherwise it could drain the battery over a couple weeks
time between flights?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring....D-10 on order....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
This is a very general question and note that my thoughts are the
opinion of a builder who has not flown yet. However I'd suggest that
high voltage coil joiners can be an excellant solution for the ignition
although not really suitable for coil on plugs. Joiners are multiple
diode strings that have proven to be very very reliable. If one diode
shorts it has no effect. One can always measure the forward voltage drop
annually. As long as it does not drop significantly from the 60 volts
(approx.) of a new unit, you can be assured that all is well. If one
whole diode string shorts, again the engine keeps running. Therefore one
can run two otherwise independant ignition units each from its own
electrical system (if you are using two electrical systems). Coil
joiners get more complex with waste-fire systems since one of each plug
pairs operates with reverse polarity, but there are several options.
For coil on plugs, I'd consider switching the coil power supply and all
the triggers to insure that a shorted driver does not prevent the second
system from functioning. Or insure that you can maintain flight with one
dead cylinder. Note that a 4 cylinder engine will lose AT LEAST 40%
power in an airplane with one dead cylinder due to pumping losses and
the other cylinders operating at lower rpm, etc.
My own solution for two efi computers is to also feed them from
different electrical systems. I then fitted extra injector(s) with a
separate filter, fuel rail and regulator for the second system. However
the 12 volt feed to the extra injector(s) will normally be switched off
(one SPST switch) unless it is required and the primary system is turned
off first. To avoid the weight of a third fuel pump it will also require
a fuel valve selection to pressurize the second fuel rail on my
implementation. Overkill? - probably, but a Megasquirt efi computer is
only $110. (check out the web site) and the rest was recycled. Too many
auto engine conversions have come out of the sky due to single component
failures in ignition and fuel systems. Unlike cars or certified
installations built in quantity, these systems are always unique in some
aspects and not near as well tested. Without redundancy, unique failure
modes will continue to show up, in my opinion. Just last week I heard of
a crankshaft sensor failure (in flight) that several people have claimed
for years to be as reliable as dirt. It was as reliable as dirt WHEN
installed in the factory in a car...
Ken
> < engines.
> I see how you wire two hot busses from 2 batteries to the two computers.
> But how do I wire the fuel injectors and the coils to the two separate
> batteries? What do you think would work the best?
> Thanks,
> Leonard>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Oil level switch |
<
If I remember correctly, one side if the switch is already grounded to
the oil pan.
I put a hi-intensity LED in my panel, connected to +12V on one side via
a (470 or 4700 ohm?) resistor and the other side of the LED to the wire
from the switch.
You could get more fancy: one side of a relay coil to +12V and the other
side of the coil to the switch.
Then use the relay contacts as you see fit to drive a lamp, audible
alarm or whatever.>>
Remember that oil level switches in automotive engines are used to check the
oil BEFORE starting, not during operation. They are shut off while the
engine is running as the oil level will normally drop below the switch
level. Even if the switch is mounted low enough to work during operation
there is some concern that aeration and turbulence will cause false
actuation. If you just wire it to a light, the light may be on all the time
the engine is running.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | one last contactor diode question |
<>
One last question, honest. I heard once somewhere that the starter
contactor will be less "vigorous" in opening the contacts with a diode
across it and therefore will be slightly more likely to weld than with no
diode. In my Cardinal the ignition switch lasted for 30 years without a
diode, but the AD was just complied with which resulted in new contacts AND
a diode across the starter contactor. hmm..
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Oil level switch |
In a message dated 3/18/2003 7:04:25 AM Mountain Standard Time,
glcasey(at)adelphia.net writes:
>
>
> Remember that oil level switches in automotive engines are used to check
> the
> oil BEFORE starting, not during operation. They are shut off while the
> engine is running as the oil level will normally drop below the switch
> level. Even if the switch is mounted low enough to work during operation
> there is some concern that aeration and turbulence will cause false
> actuation. If you just wire it to a light, the light may be on all the
> time
> the engine is running.
>
> Gary Casey
>
Very good point. The oil pressure gauge and light is the one thing ya need to
keep an eye on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Canyon <steve.canyon(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: one last contactor diode question |
Gary Casey wrote:
>One last question, honest. I heard once somewhere that the starter
>contactor will be less "vigorous" in opening the contacts with a diode
>across it and therefore will be slightly more likely to weld than with no
>diode. In my Cardinal the ignition switch lasted for 30 years without a
>diode, but the AD was just complied with which resulted in new
>contacts AND
>a diode across the starter contactor. hmm..
---
Hi Gary,
First, I don't mind questions -- I just figured folks were tired of my
'firm' answers on diode suppression stuff.
Second, I'll offer two answers. The simple answer is yes, there will
be a very small difference with and without the diode which you would
only know about if you made lab condition measurements and is of no
practical consequence as the time difference is tiny compared to the
time line of the total system characteristics.
The longer answer is that starter contactors I'm familiar with will
store a little more energy than most smaller relays because they have
more inductance. As a consequence they are likely to take longer than
the typical smaller relays to open. The extra time with any of these
is mostly dependent on the inductance of the coil -- and natural
resonances due to the combined effects of internal coil and system
distributed reactances of the application. The transient frequency
produced will be a function of this resonance factor but the coil will
attempt to begin oscillation at its natural frequency and at a peak
voltage of L(di/dt) caused by the switch's abrupt opening. Note that
system dt is heavily influenced by the distributed reactances of the
circuit but driven by the switch's opening speed, which for typical
switches is relatively slow compared to semiconductor switches. The
energy stored in the coil will be determined by L(i
2/2) and will be
dissipated as heat in the diode within essentially the first half cycle
of the attempted oscillation of the circuit, quenching switch contact
arc before it really gets started good. But without knowing the exact
parameters involved with typical starter contactors and switches, it is
not possible for me to characterize the time delay exactly. All of
these factors can be lab condition measured and results determined
definitively.
My background is with complex systems for military, commercial and
industrial systems so my practical experience doesn't encompass very
much purely aviation-typical component experience and I would defer to
Bob for estimates of times for this in practice. This list is very
fortunate to have Bob here with a vast amount of on target practical
experience and real professional background and advice.
However, I have spent a LOT of time with similar components and would
be very much surprised if he disagreed with my statement that the time
delay opening a starter contactor with diode suppression is of no
practical consequence. Just make sure the diode suppressors are
installed with short leads as close to the coil as is practical.
Regards,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 03/17/03 |
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair comm and Flightcom 403 intercom wiring
>
> I'm wiring up a Flightcom 403 intercom to my Microair radio. The intercom wiring
> diagram seems pretty clear...the only connections it has to the radio are the
> PTT, headphone, mic, and avionics ground (shown tied to the same ground point
> as the radio). No problems there. Just wondering about the radio wiring though...does
> the Mic Ground (also called Mic Lo, pin 2 on the Microair) need to
> be tied to ground to make the communication with the intercom work, or can it
> just be left unconnected?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Mark Navratil
It has been my experience that the pins labelled "Mic Lo" on
most radios are just internally tied to the radio's "Power
Ground" pin. Take an Ohmmeter, and measure the resistance
between Pin2 on the MicroAir, and whatever pin is the MicroAir's
Power ground pin. If you read a dead short, then you can
consider pin 2 to be just another ground connection on the
MicroAir. While you are at it, measure between the MicroAir's
case and its Power Ground pin.
This still leaves open the question of how to connect the "Mic
Out" from the intercom to the "Mic Input" of the MicroAir? If
you use a shielded wire, the question is what to do with the
shield:
1. connect both ends of the shield; one end to Intercom ground,
other end to MicroAir Mic LO.
2. Connect the shield to Intercom ground, leave the MicroAir end
open.
3. Connect the shield to MicroAir MicLo, leave the intercom end
open.
4. Dont bother shielding the Mic line, i.e. use an unshielded
wire.
Guess what? In 97% of installations, where the power grounds
from all of the individual avionics items are short (less than a
few feet), and are terminated at a "common" ground
terminal, any of the four methods above will work just fine.
The mic line audio level is sufficiently high, and is at a low
enough impedance, that even shielding is optional (good
practise, but optional). Shielding audio lines usually involves
keeping RF from the transmitter out of them, and has little to
do with preventing capacitive coupling at audio frequencies.
In methods 2 thru 4, you are relying on the fact that both the
intercom and MicroAir are already connected together through
their respective power grounds. The Mic signal return path is
through the power wiring via the common ground point. In method
1, you are slightly lowering the ground path resistance by
shunting the preexisting ground path with a direct connection
between the two units (thru the shield). Practically, with
method 1 you may reduce 20mOhms of ground impedance to
10mOhms...
In high-quality audio, data aquisition and instrumentation
applications, the SigHi-SigLo nomenclature implies an isolated,
differential signal pair which is isolated (optically,
transformer, differential instrumentation amplifier) from
ground. This is done to break "ground loops", and to prevent
"common mode" noise from coupling into the desired signals.
However, in avionics I have never seen anything but SigLo just
being another "GROUND" pin... If the MicroAir MicLo pin is
isolated from ground, then only Method 1 above will work, and my
hat is off to MicroAir.
Mike Mladejovsky
(one Czech to another)
Gray haired PhDEE Instrumentation Engineer
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Archer Comm antenna hookup |
I got the following from Bob himself - so I guess I had it backwards incase anyone
else is interested. Bob writes: You have it just backwards! The center conductor
connects to the the insulated little piece of aluminum which spaced from
the main part of the antenna forms a capacitor which feeds the rest of the antenna.
This devive is called a "Gamma" match. With this device there are enough
antenna parameteres that the antenna can be tuned as perfectly as is possible.
I'm hooking up my bob archer comm antenna -the one for the wing tips - I lost the
directions?
does this sound right - the center coax cable wire goes to the terminal which connects
to most of the metal on the antenna -the other antenna terminal seams
to be insulated from the rest of the antenna itself - this secound terminal on
the antenna just goes to a smaller section of metal which is insulated from the
rest of the antenna - i'm assuming this would be the ground?
thanks
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | neat site for 0-Rings |
check out www.allorings.com -neat site for all your o-ring needs
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shay King" <shaking(at)eircom.net> |
| Subject: | Turn coordinator noise |
Dear Bob,
I've installed a cheap turn coordinator in my CH701. It's causing noise in the
headset when intercom on, or when transmitting. No noise when receiving only.
I've looked at some of your suggestions in the archive and will try some of
them tommorrow.
Is it likely that if I had bought an expensive instrument that it wouldn't cause
noise problems?
Regards,
Shay King.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | re: Archer Comm antenna hookup |
| From: | "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com> |
I just converted mine to Bob's antenna's.
It's the other way around. The center conductor of the coax goes to
small section of aluminum. The rest of the antenna is grounded.
Also be certain that if you have any lights in the tips that the wires
run up the front leg of the antenna.
The antennas work great even with the strobes out there flashing away!
I picked up 5 1/2 mph on the top end by moving the COM, VOR/GS, marker
beacon and transponder antennas out of the breeze
Dave
RV-6
The need for (more) speed---->
From: Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Archer Comm antenna hookup
I'm hooking up my bob archer comm antenna -the one for the wing tips -
I lost
the directions?
does this sound right - the center coax cable wire goes to the terminal
which connects
to most of the metal on the antenna -the other antenna terminal seams
to be insulated from the rest of the antenna itself - this secound
terminal on
the antenna just goes to a smaller section of metal which is insulated
from the
rest of the antenna - i'm assuming this would be the ground?
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil level switch |
Well, that is not the case for the Mazda 13-B rotary.
I sure would like to know if I have developed an oil leak while
airborne. A sensor that doesn't work that way is worthless in my opinion.
Finn
Gary Casey wrote:
>
><
>
>
>If I remember correctly, one side if the switch is already grounded to
>the oil pan.
>I put a hi-intensity LED in my panel, connected to +12V on one side via
>a (470 or 4700 ohm?) resistor and the other side of the LED to the wire
>from the switch.
>
>You could get more fancy: one side of a relay coil to +12V and the other
>side of the coil to the switch.
>Then use the relay contacts as you see fit to drive a lamp, audible
>alarm or whatever.>>
>
>Remember that oil level switches in automotive engines are used to check the
>oil BEFORE starting, not during operation. They are shut off while the
>engine is running as the oil level will normally drop below the switch
>level. Even if the switch is mounted low enough to work during operation
>there is some concern that aeration and turbulence will cause false
>actuation. If you just wire it to a light, the light may be on all the time
>the engine is running.
>
>Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Van Caulart <etivc(at)iaw.on.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: RG Batteries at UAP/NAPA |
FYI I just happened into A UAP/NAPA store the other day looking for the
flasher unit to power the landing/taxi light combo and I found that they
now carry a complete line of RG Batteries. The line up is marketed to
recreational toy like ATV's, jet skies, boats and such.
The 18XL is a 300CCA 20ah 18lb beast which measures 12" long 4" wide and
8" in height. The complete "prosport" line is crossed referenced to
other RG battery manufacturers. The "good ole boy" (best customer) price
was $89Cdn. roughly $60US. When I told my AME about this his eyes just
lit up and he said "sounds great stick one in the plane and save the
"pink" one for the annual." I love this mechanic. Each time I show him a
better way and he's satisfied that it is better, he'll find a legal way
to sign it off.
BTW the alternating flasher is one used on a school bus and is rated for
two sealed beams or a number of bulbs. I'll pick up the flasher unit
this week.
PeterVC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: European hole spacing |
aaah, been there, done that !!. Publishing hard copy for outside of N & S
America can be tricky. Generally you'll see two or four ring binders outside
the N & S America using A4 paper and generally you'll see 3 ring binders in
the US using 8.5 x 11 paper. I know there are exceptions but generally true.
Also, don't forget A4 is a little bit longer and a little bit narrower than
8.5 x 11 so may stick out of the binder. If you print from softcopy you have
to watch margins etc.
FWIW we ended up designing a page size that was a little bit narrower than
8.5 inches and a little bit shorter than A4 (11 inches) so we knew the
contents of each page would be the same no matter what size paper was used.
Then printed some on A4 with four holes and some on 8.5 x 11 with three
holes. The extra trouble and expense is just not worth it unless you have
large volumes of print in mind for both markets.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <kkinney(at)fuse.net> |
Is anyone familiar with the book "Principles of Avionics?" It's rather pricy and
I'd like an opinion before I buy it.
It can be found at - http://www.avionics.com/www/books/Principles%20of%20Avionics.htm
Regards,
Kevin Kinney
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Book review? |
In a message dated 3/19/2003 8:47:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kkinney(at)fuse.net writes:
> Is anyone familiar with the book "Principles of Avionics?" It's rather
> pricy and I'd like an opinion before I buy it.
>
> It can be found at -
> http://www.avionics.com/www/books/Principles%20of%20Avionics.htm
>
>
> Regards,
> Kevin Kinney
>
>
>
Hello Kevin,
I am not familiar with this book but may like to be. Yes, it is pricey but
looking at the table of contents and knowing how much space it would take to
cover all of that material in depth, it is cheap. The advertisement does not
say how many pages are in the book.
I sent two 4.8 cubic foot crates of material home for safe keeping from
Millington Tenn. when I went through the US Navy's Avionics "B" Schools in
the early seventies. Later, a fire destroyed it all. I had every avionics
principal and device known to man documented in that stash of literature.
Volumes and volumes of information on changes, new circuits and devices have
been compiled since those olden days. GPS was just dawning on a dream come
true.
If you are just wanting to understand and wire your OBAM bird, Bob Nuckolls
has all of the info you need condensed into a cookbook for your
reading/wiring enjoyment. It is a superb value for that purpose at less than
half the cost of the book you are looking at. (What percentage did you set
my sales commission at Bob?)
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Running wires next to induction tubes |
I've run all my wires and hoses through firesleeve - is it ok to use nylon ties
to tie them right onto the intake induction tubes? I wouldnt think they would
get very hot - at least not too hot for the firesleeve?
thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Running wires next to induction tubes |
In a message dated 3/19/2003 10:19:30 AM Mountain Standard Time,
wings97302(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> I've run all my wires and hoses through firesleeve - is it ok to use nylon
> ties to tie them right onto the intake induction tubes? I wouldnt think
> they would get very hot - at least not too hot for the firesleeve?
>
>
Firesleeve will live ok, the nylon ties will get brittle and break in a few
heat cycles though. Ben Haas N801BH.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Chalmers <David(at)ctsinternational.com> |
| Subject: | Running wires next to induction tubes |
The previous owner and I used nylon tiewraps around the intake tubes of our
0-200 (using downdraft cooling) and didn't have a problem after 300 hours.
-----Original Message-----
From: Benford2(at)aol.com [mailto:Benford2(at)aol.com]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Running wires next to induction tubes
In a message dated 3/19/2003 10:19:30 AM Mountain Standard Time,
wings97302(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> I've run all my wires and hoses through firesleeve - is it ok to use nylon
> ties to tie them right onto the intake induction tubes? I wouldnt think
> they would get very hot - at least not too hot for the firesleeve?
>
>
Firesleeve will live ok, the nylon ties will get brittle and break in a few
heat cycles though. Ben Haas N801BH.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | off topic - Skybolt.com - sale - cowl fasteners - |
check it out - good deal.
if you need cowl fasteners - check out www.skybolt.com they have them on sale down
from $457 or so down to $317 total - I just order some. I'm told those hinges
break alot - do it right the first time.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Bourget" <falconaviation(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | intercom question |
Hi all,,, new to the list putting together a Sal 2.3rd mustang.
ready to do wiring now and I have a question.
If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I need to
install an intercom?
thanks
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Running wires next to induction tubes |
Benford2(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 3/19/2003 10:19:30 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>wings97302(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>>I've run all my wires and hoses through firesleeve - is it ok to use nylon
>>ties to tie them right onto the intake induction tubes? I wouldnt think
>>they would get very hot - at least not too hot for the firesleeve?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Firesleeve will live ok, the nylon ties will get brittle and break in a few
>heat cycles though. Ben Haas N801BH.
>
Ties under the cowl of my -4 (several hundred hours & 2 years old when I
bought it) were still ok when I sold it 7 years later. Ties made for
exterior use (uv protected) should last longer.
fwiw,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: intercom question |
>
>
>Hi all,,, new to the list putting together a Sal 2.3rd mustang.
>
>ready to do wiring now and I have a question.
>
>If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I need to
>install an intercom?
Mike, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on your direct
query but Dee and I were out of town since last Friday and
where we were going, there wasn't any place to plug a computer
into the wall . . .
Does the A200 have a true intercom function built in?
It's not apparent from the front panel controls in spite
of the fact that some of the sales literature I've seen
on the net speaks about "intercom capabilities" . . .
I suspect this simply means that its headphone output
signals are not incompatible with intercom systems.
You'll need some form of intercom that features additional
audio inputs from other sources like nav receiver, marker beacon,
alert tones, etc. in addition to stereo outputs from your
music system. This also means that you need to acquire
headsets wired for stereo music . . . most are not.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator wiring |
>Hi Bob,
>
>I have purchased your book along with S-704-1 alternator OV relay and the
>crowbar overvoltage module. I am building a Skystar Classic IV with a Rotax
>912 engine so I am using your diagram Z-15 as a guide. My question is this:
Z15??? or Z16 . . .?
>On your diagram you have the alternator master circuit wired through the
>main power bus and not the essential bus. It seems to me that with this
>setup that a failure of the master contactor would result in a shutdown of
>the alternator. Is this correct and if so is there any reason not to
>attach the
>alternator master circuit to the essential bus?
The e-bus is generally not needed unless the alternator
has failed in which case it allows you to use battery
reserves without the burden of the master relay. Depending
on how the regulator is configured, the PM alternator
on the Rotax may still deliver useful power to the
bus with the battery master relay open so battery master
relay operation is not necessarily a requirement for
alternator operation . . .
Even if it is, what kind of flight operations do
you anticipate wherein lose of both battery contactor
-AND- alternator presents any kind of a tense
scenario?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>Amp meter fluctuation and gear green lights go from bright to dim at low
>rpms less that 1000 rpms. Overhauled alternator 60amps with new
>belt. Problem was before and after alternator/belt exchange. A related
>problem with radio transmission. Low engine rpm transmission is load and
>clear. Cruise rpm transmission is not clean but scratchy. Help
>Aircraft PA28R-200 1970
>John
This problem needs to be trouble shot
by someone who understands how the system works
and how it behaves when the different components
are not working. Too many mechanics troubleshoot
by substitution . . . keep replacing things
starting with their "best guess" until the problem
goes away. The symptoms you cite are suggestive
of a regulator problem brought on my increased
resistance of wiring and components between
the regulator and the bus . . . easy to
trouble shoot by someone who understands
what he is doing . . . but their may be other
deficiencies compounding the problem. It's
not a terribly difficult thing to do but it's
more than I can lead you through in a quick
e-mail response. Do you have a mechanic helping
you with this?
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | D-sub pins substitution? |
>Bob,
>
>Just wanted to thank you for providing all these great resources. I
>purchased the AEC book awhile back and it has been a great reference and
>educational while building.
I'm pleased that you find the investment useful . . .
>With the praise out of the way (smile). If you have time for a question
>I'd be grateful (and will pay as well - just tell me where to send the check).
>
>Here goes - I just purchased an UPS/Apollo GX65 COM/GPS unit and it came
>with solid barrel connector pins for the DBxx connectors. Since these
>require yet another tool that I'll probably never use again I was
>wondering your thoughts of the solid pins versus the ones you describe in
>your article at
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html? Since I have
>some of the open type pins from left over hobby projects and the crimper
>for them as well, it would be really easy to use them. However, if it's
>going to come back and bit me, I'll just spend another $90 and buy the
>'damn solid pin MS22520 based crimper'.
How about a $44 tool at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-3
If it were my airplane, I only use machined pins
in the d-sub connectors.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
>
>Ok, I see.
>
>Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a switch
>no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have been
>enough to ignite the oil?
If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
go along with the ignition event. That's what's
so bogus about the official story of root-cause
for TWA800 . . .
If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
anytime because the chemical reaction provides
its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
cousins make such lousy bombs.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crossover Warning Light |
>
>In a message dated 3/17/2003 9:24:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpack(at)igs3.com
>writes:
>
> > I would like to put a light on the panel that indicates that the Crossover
> > Contactor is on (Dual bat, Dual Alt system). Where should I take the lead
> > for the light?
> >
> > - Jim
Figure Z-14 shows just such a light adjacent to the cross-feed contactor
control switch.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OV Protection |
>
>I'm in the (very frustrating) process of designing an electrical system
>for my first experimental (Kitfox w/ Lyc O-235):
>
>I'm confused about over voltage protection devices(for alternators):
>
> I understand that their basic purpose is to protect the electrical
> system if the voltage output gets too high, but isn't that the function
> of any other type of cirquit protection device (fuses, breakers, fusible
> links)?
> I'm planning on installing a 35 amp fusible link between the alternator
> and the main bus
Fusible link? . . . or ANL series current limiter? What size
alternator are you using? . . . which power distribution diagram
are you basing your system on?
> Does that only protect against over-amperage? I saw the 'crow-bar'
> type of OV protection devices from B&C on the web site - does that get
> installed between the alternator and the fusible link?
. . . proper application of the OVM-14 crowbar ov module
is described in every appendix Z power distribution diagram where
applicable.
>Any comments or clarifications would be helpful
The first seven paragraphs of chapter 6 speak to what
constitutes "over voltage", where it comes from and
how and why it needs to be dealt with in a very specific
manner . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Recommendations |
>
>Hello List,
>
>Thank You (especially Bob Nuckolls) for the responses to my question about
>de-rating mini switches a while back......the answers made great sense and
>convinced me what a great resource this list is. I will be contributing a
>touch of $ to the list soon.
>
>I am in the process of re-designing the panel for my Kitfox....basically
>going to use fuses instead of breakers and changing from a panel mounted
>GPS/Com to a comm & a hand held GPS (mainly for economic reasons). Could
>You please recommend the Comm & GPS that will give me the best value as
>well as the best place to get them? I'm assuming a Terra Comm & Garmin
>GPS but recommendations from experienced people will be very helpful.
I have been flying exclusively with $100 gps receivers from WalMart now
for about 5 years (Garmin GPS310 and close cousins). They do everything
I need to do and for a very attractive price. Until this past weekend,
I was under the impression that they had problems getting locked onto
satellites if you were (1) a long way and/or long time from where the
receiver was turned off or (2) moving.
Just as an experiment, I held my GPS310 up to the cabin window on
an MD80 on way to Seattle last week. The receiver had been turned
off weeks ago and 600 miles away. It took the radio less than a
minute to figure out where we were (over southern Idaho), how
fast we were going (526 mph) and how high we were (31,250').
Truly amazing little machines. Hard to find more bang for the
buck. This experiment showed that one doesn't have to
have the flight-bag back-up receiver up and running for
the duration of the trip.
Not planning to replace my stereo 310's any time soon.
Will give another one away at my upcoming weekend seminar
in Ft. Worth.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in front
of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
(I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
> >
> >Ok, I see.
> >
> >Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a switch
> >no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have been
> >enough to ignite the oil?
>
> If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
> of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
> doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
> go along with the ignition event. That's what's
> so bogus about the official story of root-cause
> for TWA800 . . .
>
> If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> cousins make such lousy bombs.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejovsky(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re:intercom question |
From: "Mike Bourget" <falconaviation(at)rogers.com>
>If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I
>need to install an intercom?
Hi Mike:
I have tried to drive stereo aviation headsets (LightSpeeds)
from a Sony Discman battery-powered CD player without extra
amplification, and it almost works, but not quite.
The problem is that the lightweight headphones supplied with the
Sony are a much lower impedance (~30 Ohms per ear) than aircraft
headsets (~150 Ohms per ear). Since the Sony is powered with
just two 1.5V alkaline cells, it is only capable of producing
about 2.8V peak to peak of audio signal across 30 Ohms, or open
circuit.
Now 2.8Vp-p is 1Vrms, meaning that the Sony produces P=E
2/R or
(1x1)/30 =33mw per ear. If you substitute a 150 Ohm headset, the
voltage out of the Sony stays the same, but the power drops to
(1x1)/150 = 7mw. This is just not enough to overcom the ambient
noise in the cockpit. The level is just too low, even with the
volume control on the headsets, and the Sony running wide open.
To drive aviation headsets with the Sony, you need a stereo
amplifier which is capable of delivering about 30mw to 150 Ohms.
By transposing the above equation, we find that it takes
E=sqrt(R*P) or sqrt(0.03*150) = 2.1 Vrms, which is 6Vp-p, which
means you need a voltage gain of about 3.
There are several ways to get the required voltage gain. Use two
transformers, roll your own stereo amp, buy a Muse from PS
Engineering (http://www.ps-engineering.com),
buy a stereo intercom which contains such an amplifier, or buy
an expensive panel-mounted stereo audio switching panel.
The problem with audio transformers is availability and bulk.
You would need 30Ohm to 150Ohm matching transformer with freq
response from 30 Hz to >10000 Hz. These are hard to find.
Ones that have good low freq respnse would be fairly big, too.
Being cheap, I built a little stereo amp using a single IC audio
amp chip. It has a freq response which is flat from 10Hz to
10KHz. It has a fixed gain of 3. It will drive four stereo
headsets simultaneouly. The audio quality with the
noise-cancelling LightSpeed headsets is HiFi. It automatically
mutes the music during intercom or ATC radio activity.
I haven't written this up in the form of an article for
publication, but might be persuaded to do so...
Mike Mladejovsky
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude control |
>
> >
> ><<> I've got plans for
> >> a super sensitive, temperature compensated pressure
> >> transducer that gives me +/- 20 foot accuracy to
> >> 60,000 feet and better than 1% accuracy for pitot
> >> pressures to 300 kts.
> >
> >Does this mean we will be seeing a reasonably accurate, affordable altitude
> >control
> >device in
> >the near future?>>
> >
> >Pardon me if I don't hold my breath for this one. 20 feet of accuracy at
> >60,000 equates to a maximum error of .00098 psi, or 0.007% of full scale, an
> >accuracy not attainable by even laboratory grade sensors. At sea level 20
> >feet equates to 0.01 psi or 0.07% of full scale, within reach of high-end
> >pressure sensors, but only over a very limited temperature range.
I did misquote the spec . . . (which is inexcusable 'cause
I wrote it about 8 years ago). Accuracy at altitudes
below 20,000 feet was spec'd at 50 feet but
the little box easily holds +/- 20 feet for all effects
combined. We spec'd accuracy to degrade linearly above
20,000 feet to +/- 1000 feet at 60K . . . the supplier
came in at under 300 feet.
This isn't a laboratory grade sensor . . . in fact, it's
a jelly-bean part that's individually characterized for
production variations and temperature effects as part of
the normal environmental screening processes. These sensors
are not particularly accurate nor are they stable with
temperature but they turned out to be quite repeatable.
By driving them with a precision constant current source
and measuring the voltage drop across the bridge excitation
terminals, the sensor becomes its own temperature monitor.
Pressure data is, of course, taken off the bridge taps
on either side.
For altitude control, one can get by with
holding current pressure under prevailing conditions
with sufficient resolution to meet requirements
of the servo model. This used to be done by simply
closing off the vent to an aneroid capsule with
a valve and then let the capsule drive an lvdt to
characterize departures from the pressure captured
within the aneroid. That was the technique of
choice in 1965 (Cessna Nav-o-Matic 400). Nowadays,
one could use a full range absolute sensor with
lots of gain (al-la the techniques described above)
or a low range differential sensor and capture
valve like the ol' Nav-o-Matics. In either case,
one could ignore temperature and calibration
issues since you're only interested in the short
term stability under present conditions. That's
what the ez-trim system does as I recall.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: RG battery mounting positions |
>
>Hello Gary,
>
>Seek out the Concord Battery site for one. They sell Certified RG sealed
>lead acid batteries for Certified aircraft and have done so for some number
>of years now.
>
>Jim in Kelowna
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Aucountry(at)aol.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: RG battery mounting positions
>
>
> >
> > Anyone on this list ever get an RG battery approved in a cerified plane?
> > Especially now with the way the FAA is (more) messed up?
> >
> > Gary
B&C has STC's to put several of their battery offerings
into certified ships as well.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
> If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> cousins make such lousy bombs.
>
> Bob . . .
That's also why its such a challenge to make a fuel efficient carbuerator/
fuel injection system. And why it takes >17kV to make it light, even with
the correct mixture.
An interesting observation about twa800.
Matt-
________________________________________________________________________________
I see everyone referencing Z-this and Z-that.......This is in reference to?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetraton for wires |
>
>In a message dated 3/14/2003 12:58:18 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>Hebeard2(at)aol.com writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> > First of all I couldn't find any stainless steel towel bars, but with the
> > help of a sales person I found stainless steel Grab Bars. I couldn't find
> > any
> > with the stock number given, but they did have quite a selection. Most
> were
> >
> > 1.5" in diameter rather than 1.25". The various stock numbers referred to
> > varying finishes available to facilitate good friction when grasping.
> There
> >
> > were some 1.25" diameter in 24" length which cost $33.00. Searching for a
> > shorter length, I found an 18" length in 1.5" diameter for $19.96 (Stock #
> > 6318, Satin Stainless Steel). Since length means nothing for our purposes,
> > and I am cheap, this is the one I bought. I figure the firestop to plug
> the
> >
> > extra .25" wouldn't cost $13.00. Don't get too hung up on stock numbers,
> > look
> > at the product under Grab Bars.
You don't need to use fire-stop putty to fill the excess volume
of the larger tubes. Study the pictures posted at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
The only place you need any sealing is under the flange
were it bolts to the firewall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetraton for wires |
>
>Hi Harvey, since I was the one with the stainless towel/ grab bar
>suggestion, I am supprised you found a salesman in Home depot that knew
>what supplies were in their department. If you happen to be a capable
>stainless welder you could just use a piece of tubing with a flange
>welded to the end. I am squishing mine with the flange on the firewall
>side with fire caulking then over filling the interior of the tube and
>wire with the same caulking. The caulking is readilly available in
>varying temp's.
Do I infer that you're not using fire-sleeve with
this installation?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: runaway, self regulated alternators |
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for the extended reply.
>
>However its hard to ignore the melted alternator I had in my hands years
>ago. That convinced me that an internal failure could keep the voltage low
>enough so the shorted current had time to heat things up and one could not
>count on the field acting as a fuse. The theory was a diode failure started
>things.
>Regardless of our differences I personally would never consider a regulator
>that could not be controlled fully. Thus no internal regulator with
>connections to the "B" lead. Its just not worth the small cost savings.
I'm trying to understand the physics supporting your
concerns. It is sufficient to "agree to disagree"
in politics but we're talking about differing opinions
where you suggest my recommendations offer some potential
for fire hazard. My premise is that the action of
disconnecting a failed alternator from the bus by
means of b-lead disconnect contactor allows the
alternator output voltage to rise without restraint
offered by any loads or battery. Under these conditions,
outputs of over 100 volts are easily realized and the
resulting current in the field winding will fuse it
in seconds.
I've seen LOTS of melted alternators also . . . WITH and
WITH0UT external regulators. In every case, destruction
of the alternator proceeded within constraints offered
by system loads and vehicle's battery. The whole idea
of the b-lead disconnect is to encourage timely,
uneventful self-destruction of the alternator's
internals in a manner that mitigates risks demonstrated
countless times when the alternator remains
connected to the system.
Let's be engineers here and dispel lingering
doubts on the part of some who read this list. This
is an IMPORTANT discussion Paul. The availability
of alternators easily modified for external
regulation is low. Availability of off-the-
car alternators with stellar track records
and built in regulators is high. If we're
going to take advantage of what SHOULD be
a trend toward utilization of commercial off
the shelf products, we need to offer our
brothers and sisters good reasons and lucid
explanations for our recommendations based
on the best engineering we know.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
go to the link above and get the aeroconnection book - the 10th addition -it's
$30 - it has all the diagrams - and it's good reading - it will open your eyes
to many issues involving wiring on airplanes
Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: Scott Bilinski
I see everyone referencing Z-this and Z-that.......This is in reference to?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 10415 Ferris |
> Bob:
>I'm starting to build a Rans S-12S next month.
>These question are on fuses.
>1. What are the trip characteristics of the 1-15 amp plug-in fuses on your
>website? Are they slow-blow, fast-trip, other?
They're stock automotive fast blow fuses.
>2. I will have one load that will exceed 15A - a MarinePro 250W 12V cabin
>heater. Although the thermostat will adjust power consumption as the cabin
>heats up, it could initially draw over 20 amps. How would you recommend
>that I protect the wiring to it?
>Derek
A 250 watt heater in a Rans cabin is like trying
to heat your garage with a Bic lighter. People
have installed electric heaters in airplanes
like the Long-Ez . . . had one builder go for
a 60A, 28v system in his Ez so he could have
sufficient excess watts to use for cabin heat.
Even then, the pair of 700 watt heaters were
little more than toe warmers.
Have you talked with any other Rans owners
who have installed this heater in their airplane?
The 250 W heater will draw just under 20A, more
than the total energy produced by your
alternator (I presume you're using a Rotax 912).
Believe me, the thermostat on this heater wont
shut the heat off before late spring.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I haven't
read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
is still debated.
No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
-John R.
Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in front
> of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
>
> Denny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>>>Ok, I see.
>>>
>>>Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a switch
>>>no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have been
>>>enough to ignite the oil?
>>
>> If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
>> of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
>> doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
>> go along with the ignition event. That's what's
>> so bogus about the official story of root-cause
>> for TWA800 . . .
>>
>> If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
>> products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
>> the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
>> your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
>> is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
>> is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
>> anytime because the chemical reaction provides
>> its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
>> It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
>> cousins make such lousy bombs.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
Wasn't that in Bangkok? The prime minister was to board the aircraft a
couple of hours later. Initial talk was an assassination attempt. Later
they said it was the center tank.
Ed Holyoke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis O'Connor
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:07 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
>
>
> And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> front
> of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
>
> Denny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
>
>
> >
>
> > >
> > >Ok, I see.
> > >
> > >Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a
> switch
> > >no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have
been
> > >enough to ignite the oil?
> >
> > If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
> > of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
> > doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
> > go along with the ignition event. That's what's
> > so bogus about the official story of root-cause
> > for TWA800 . . .
> >
> > If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> > products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> > the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> > your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> > is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> > is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> > anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> > its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> > It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> > cousins make such lousy bombs.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re:intercom question |
>
>
>From: "Mike Bourget" <falconaviation(at)rogers.com>
>
> >If I use the Icom 200, and I wish to also have a CD player do I
> >need to install an intercom?
>
>Hi Mike:
>
>I have tried to drive stereo aviation headsets (LightSpeeds)
>from a Sony Discman battery-powered CD player without extra
>amplification, and it almost works, but not quite.
Mike, a lucid and accurate analysis. Thank you
for sharing . . .
>Being cheap, I built a little stereo amp using a single IC audio
>amp chip. It has a freq response which is flat from 10Hz to
>10KHz. It has a fixed gain of 3. It will drive four stereo
>headsets simultaneouly. The audio quality with the
>noise-cancelling LightSpeed headsets is HiFi. It automatically
>mutes the music during intercom or ATC radio activity.
>
>I haven't written this up in the form of an article for
>publication, but might be persuaded to do so...
I'd be pleased to publish it on aeroelectric.com . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Automation of Alternator Disconnect system |
Bob:
any ideas on automating the Alternator disconnect system? Like how about if the
Voltage crowbar thingy goes off, it would automatically disconnect the alternator
contactor and alternator field? this would also turn on a light to let
you know you where running only on the battery?
What things would you need to consider in an automated system which took care of
this alternator field switch and alternator disconnect switch?
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Electrical Noise in aircraft wiring |
I have been reading the aeroelectric forum for a few months. I
have noticed that a lot of the discussions have to do with the
mechanics of wiring aircraft, i.e crimping vs soldering, wire
sizes, ring terminals, etc. Also, there is a lot of discussion
about circuit protection, redundency, reliability, spike
suppression, etc.
Occasionaly, there are a few questions about electrical noise,
i.e., shielding, grounding, ground loops, bypassing, filtering,
especially where it involves audio, intercoms, mic wiring, audio
switching panels, entertainment. Usually, what starts the
discussion is something like "how do I get the alternator
whine/strobe squeal out of my headphones?"
The topic of grounding/shielding is often the least understood,
and there is a lot of bad advice that is meted out, here
and on other forums. I'll go so far as to say that a lot of
avionics vendors, and most avionics installers dont really
know what they are doing.
I just happened to be poking around at an Intel Microcontroller
site, and found the following application note AN-125, which
succinctly discusses this topic:
http://www.intel.com/design/auto/mcs96/applnots/21031302.PDF
"Designing Microcontroller Systems for Electrically Noisy
Environments".
Read the app note. Study it. There will be a quiz....
Mike Mladejovsky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net> |
| Subject: | Too close to my compass? |
I am retrofitting my fiberglass aircraft with a B&C 200G alternator and
accompanying regulator & filter capacitor. Space behind the panel is at a
premium, and it is very difficult to work down there, close to the firewall.
I would like to install the voltage regulator right behind the panel, but
this location is about 6" forward of my whiskey compass. Do you think this
will present a problem and create magnetic interference?
If I had my druthers, I would really like to mount it on the forward side of
the firewall, but the installation diagram calls for the aft side of the FW.
Any comments?
Sam Hoskins
Quickie Q-200 ~1,375 hours
(Friends don't let friends fly metal airplanes).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Triano" <rondefly(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetraton for wires |
Hi Bob, Just started reading your book, Is (fire Sleave) something I
have not got to yet? Not familiar with it.
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetraton for wires
-->
>-->
>
>Hi Harvey, since I was the one with the stainless towel/ grab bar
>suggestion, I am supprised you found a salesman in Home depot that knew
>what supplies were in their department. If you happen to be a capable
>stainless welder you could just use a piece of tubing with a flange
>welded to the end. I am squishing mine with the flange on the firewall
>side with fire caulking then over filling the interior of the tube and
>wire with the same caulking. The caulking is readilly available in
>varying temp's.
Do I infer that you're not using fire-sleeve with
this installation?
Bob . . .
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automation of Alternator Disconnect system |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>any ideas on automating the Alternator disconnect system? Like how about
>if the Voltage crowbar thingy goes off, it would automatically disconnect
>the alternator contactor and alternator field? this would also turn on a
>light to let you know you where running only on the battery?
>
>What things would you need to consider in an automated system which took
>care of this alternator field switch and alternator disconnect switch?
Not sure if I understand your question but I think
it's already automated. Within seconds of an
ov tripout, the bus voltage drops below 13.0 volts
and your low-voltage warning light begins to flash.
Not sure what else is needed here . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I see everyone referencing Z-this and Z-that.......This is in reference to?
>
>
>Scott Bilinski
>Eng dept 305
>Phone (858) 657-2536
>Pager (858) 502-5190
Appendix Z of the AeroElectric Connection is a growing
collection of power distribution diagrams that provide
a basis configuring a system to meet your mission
needs. Most single engine airplanes produced since the
first batteries went on board about 1948 haven't materially
advanced in philosophy to this day. The Appendix Z
drawings offer a variety of starting points depending
on your mission and budget.
The drawings are part of the book . . . but since they
are updated with every revision to the book, they
can also be downloaded as part of the information
packages indexed at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator noise |
>
>Dear Bob,
>I've installed a cheap turn coordinator in my CH701. It's causing noise
>in the headset when intercom on, or when transmitting. No noise when
>receiving only. I've looked at some of your suggestions in the archive
>and will try some of them tommorrow.
>
>Is it likely that if I had bought an expensive instrument that it wouldn't
>cause noise problems?
Several people have experienced the same problem over
the years and it seems to always involve a Chinese manufactured
instrument. Someone on the list promised me the "carcase"
of his purchase should it prove to be a noise problem too.
I'll see if I can get my friends out at the RFI lab to look
at its noise characteristics. It might be possible to
craft a modification and/or filter to mitigate the problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Contactor Questions |
> Bob, need to know which large posts on the S-701-1 OV Disc.
The large terminals are interchangeable. The small terminals
are also except that the diode polarity determines which
terminal gets (+) voltage.
>Contactor does the "b" lead from Alt. fasten (Bat post or other post) on
>Z-24 11/01? Also, which small post does the "F" and Alt. Fld. 5 Amp wires
>(20AWG) fasten to or does it matter?? This contactor has a diode from the
>Bat.post to the first small post on the right- horizontally. This post
>has two more diodes also - (one to the next small post to the right and
>one that fastens to the other large post not identified).
If you truly have an S701-1 contactor it should have been
sent to you looking like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-1l.jpg
Either fat terminal can be wired to the alternator with the
other one going to starter contactor. You would REMOVE the
red jumper wire visible in on the left side of the picture.
Small terminal on right goes to ground, small terminal on
left goes to your field switch.
What you've described has three diodes and probably looks
like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/switch/s701-2.jpg
This is the S701-2 contactor supplied with extra diodes
to serve as a cross-feed contactor in Z-14. If this is
what you have, then remove two diodes wired to each fat
terminal and then wire as described for the -1 contactor
above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exploding Jet-A |
><jrourke@allied-computer.com>
>
>I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
>
>Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
>read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
>claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I haven't
>read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
>is still debated.
>
>No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
>recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
>
>-John R.
>Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> >
> > And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> front
> > of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> > (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
There has been an exhaustive study of public data on
the TWA800 incident. I've read quite a bit of it with
particular interest discussions illuminated with
logic and good physics. Like all such cases, there
are plenty of "fog generators" in the discussion
including conspiracy theorists and (not the least
of which) are agencies of government with competing
agendas.
The tank in question had to have unusable and/or
unused liquid fuel in it. I am mystified as to how
the vapor-space in any closed volume with liquid in
the bottom, dilutes what would normally be a nearly
saturated mixture of fuel/air down to a
stoichiometric ratio required for combustion with
a high release of energy with any fuel, much less
Jet-A. This is but ONE of many questions which I
find puzzling.
You're free to evaluate for yourself. There are
many reasons to be suspicious of the engineering
and investigative techniques . . . but be prepared
to spend some time looking through the details.
check out www.twa800.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~neteagle/
Here's but one of many examples of logical, detailed and
independent analysis to be found with a bit of
websearching . . .
http://www.compassionateweb.net/~missiletwa800/mann.htm
and as a tip of the iceberg . . .
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24075
http://twa800.com/news/Stalcup.htm
http://www.flight800.org/sketch.htm
http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/second649.html
http://twa800.com/images/exhibit22c_radar.pdf
It's a complex puzzle but in the final analysis, only
the RIGHT pieces fit together into the real picture.
I've found the reasoning of a number of folks to
be compelling and in direct contradiction with
the officially published accounts.
If you feel compelled to learn and/or enjoy putting
big puzzles together one could do worse than study
what's out there on TWA800.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
om>
>Bob,
>
> >> Single ground blocks are shipped with with a shorter brass carry
>through bolt, washers and nuts for sheet metal firewalls. If in doubt as
>you your grounding needs, drop us an e-mail note.
>
>Getting ready to order some items off your website (what an awesome
>resource) and had an electric ground related question. I'm building a
>Zodiac 601HDS with a Subaru EA81 (engine mounted up front w/ starter,
>low wing, all metal) and will have the battery installed behind the
>seats due to weight and balance issues. I'll be running the battery
>cables up to the firewall area and need to decide how to deal with the
>ground cable. Would it be better to hook it on the cockpit side of the
>firewall and attach it to your 24 prong ground plane and then use a
>'patch cable' on the engine side of the firewall to the crankcase?
The ground block is intended to be used just as you've described.
The ideal installation runs (-) lead(s) for battery plus a crankcase
ground strap to the single brass bolt through the firewall.
All other grounds are best routed to the same block with
the exceptions of strobe power supply, landing and taxi lights,
pitot heater and nav lights can use local grounds where practical
on a metal airframe.
>If I understand the grounding and resistance issues properly (as far as
>the starter is concerned), it's important to have as little resistance
>as possible and having a good ground system is vital to ensure that the
>voltage available to the starter is sufficient. Since every attachment
>point raises the resistance level I wasn't sure if I should run the
>negative side of the battery to the crankcase and then jumper it back to
>the 24 prong ground plane or since the airplane is all metal, just run
>the ground cable to the crankcase and not worry about the jumper cable.
I don't know as it's "vital" . . . just good engineering
practice. A couple of hundred thousand airplanes were NOT
wired this way and they operate mostly sorta okay . . . but if
we know of a better way and it's easy to do, why not?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Noise in aircraft wiring |
>I just happened to be poking around at an Intel Microcontroller
>site, and found the following application note AN-125, which
>succinctly discusses this topic:
>
>http://www.intel.com/design/auto/mcs96/applnots/21031302.PDF
>
>"Designing Microcontroller Systems for Electrically Noisy
>Environments".
>
>Read the app note. Study it. There will be a quiz....
This is an excellent piece that describes the practical
use of a lot of good physics . . . but while many
of the principals are common, the applications are
not well translated from microprocessor-based-black-
box into a how-to-wire-airplanes language.
Most noise problems in airplanes come from poor
ground architectures. Single point grounding
takes care of this. This leaves use with a very
few issues that involve radiated or electro-statically
coupled noise which are generally pretty easy to
predict and avoid in the design phase and easy
to fix if discover that we've stubbed our toe
at some later time. I don't think I'd recommend
the airframe guy spend much time with this piece.
But if you've a hanker'n to craft some sort of
new black box, it's probably required reading whether
your box is processor based or not.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Too close to my compass? |
>
>
>I am retrofitting my fiberglass aircraft with a B&C 200G alternator and
>accompanying regulator & filter capacitor. Space behind the panel is at a
>premium, and it is very difficult to work down there, close to the firewall.
>
>I would like to install the voltage regulator right behind the panel, but
>this location is about 6" forward of my whiskey compass. Do you think this
>will present a problem and create magnetic interference?
probably
>If I had my druthers, I would really like to mount it on the forward side of
>the firewall, but the installation diagram calls for the aft side of the FW.
it will be okay on the forward side. You need to keep all
wiring as far as possible from compass.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetraton for wires |
>
>Hi Bob, Just started reading your book, Is (fire Sleave) something I
>have not got to yet? Not familiar with it.
>
>Ron Triano
See
http://www.paragonperformance.com/Fire%20Sleeve.html
http://www.amstreetrod.com/html/firesleeve.html#desc
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/Aircraft/HoseFittings/AeroquipFiresleeve.html
Used lots of places under cowl . . . protecting
firewall penetrations for wires is but one
application. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Means" <rgvelocity(at)lmf.net> |
| Subject: | GM low oil sensor redux |
Maybe I missed it in the continuing discussion of fuel tank explosions.... but
my original question was whether anyone had any experience with these inductive
type switches and knew whether they are designed for direct application of 12volts
or something less (I would prefer to not fry it finding out) :)
Also, was there a final consensus on the contactor/diode question (bigger diode,
TVS, or just say no)? Thanks.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Too close to my compass? |
> You need to keep all wiring as far as possible from compass.
As a data point on this, I just moved some wires for landing and nav lights
which were deflecting the panel mount compass 30 degrees when running past
it one inch away. At 3 inches the deflection was barely noticable - maybe 2
degrees. At 6 inches I couldnt see any deflection at all. I moved the wires
18 away. For some reason, a fuel pump wire didnt have any effect, even at 1
inch.
John SLade
Cozy IV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor, bum advise |
There was a 'B' in the name somewhere :)
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
>
> Wasn't that in Bangkok? The prime minister was to board the aircraft a
> couple of hours later. Initial talk was an assassination attempt. Later
> they said it was the center tank.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> > aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis O'Connor
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:07 AM
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
> >
> >
> >
> > And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> > front
> > of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> > (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
> >
> > Denny
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GM low oil sensor, bum advise
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > >
> > > >Ok, I see.
> > > >
> > > >Could have been spectacular though: full battery voltage across a
> > switch
> > > >no longer fully submerged in oil. Wonder if the flash would have
> been
> > > >enough to ignite the oil?
> > >
> > > If it were a little bit of oil in a large volume
> > > of air, perhaps. You can't ignite a fuel that
> > > doesn't also have the right ratio of oxygen to
> > > go along with the ignition event. That's what's
> > > so bogus about the official story of root-cause
> > > for TWA800 . . .
> > >
> > > If you've ever done explosion proof testing of
> > > products you'll know how DIFFICULT it is to get
> > > the right ratio for explosive mixture even when
> > > your trying to do it right. Any time the fuel
> > > is in great excess compared to oxygen, the system
> > > is as inert as a rock. Stuff like gunpowder works
> > > anytime because the chemical reaction provides
> > > its own oxygen in an otherwise closed environment.
> > > It's a really neat thing that gasoline and its
> > > cousins make such lousy bombs.
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exploding Jet-A |
Fine Bob... Not wanting to get into a hoohaa over it...
In a previous lifetime I happened to hang around the plant engineering
department of a small, multinational automobile corporation... One of our
perenniel problems was the exploding 55 gallon, steel drum... One in
particular I remember was a millwright that managed to blow up a kerosene
drum (similar to Jet A) that he was chiseling the top off from, with an
airpowered chisel... At that point I issued an absolute ban on reusing 55
gallon drums, which cost us some money but saved a lot more in the long
run...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: exploding Jet-A
>
> ><jrourke@allied-computer.com>
> >
> >I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
> >
> >Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
> >read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
> >claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I haven't
> >read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
> >is still debated.
> >
> >No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
> >recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
> >
> >-John R.
>
> >Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> > front
> > > of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> > > (I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
>
> There has been an exhaustive study of public data on
> the TWA800 incident. I've read quite a bit of it with
> particular interest discussions illuminated with
> logic and good physics. Like all such cases, there
> are plenty of "fog generators" in the discussion
> including conspiracy theorists and (not the least
> of which) are agencies of government with competing
> agendas.
>
> The tank in question had to have unusable and/or
> unused liquid fuel in it. I am mystified as to how
> the vapor-space in any closed volume with liquid in
> the bottom, dilutes what would normally be a nearly
> saturated mixture of fuel/air down to a
> stoichiometric ratio required for combustion with
> a high release of energy with any fuel, much less
> Jet-A. This is but ONE of many questions which I
> find puzzling.
>
> You're free to evaluate for yourself. There are
> many reasons to be suspicious of the engineering
> and investigative techniques . . . but be prepared
> to spend some time looking through the details.
>
> check out www.twa800.com
> http://home.earthlink.net/~neteagle/
>
> Here's but one of many examples of logical, detailed and
> independent analysis to be found with a bit of
> websearching . . .
>
> http://www.compassionateweb.net/~missiletwa800/mann.htm
>
> and as a tip of the iceberg . . .
>
> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24075
> http://twa800.com/news/Stalcup.htm
> http://www.flight800.org/sketch.htm
> http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/second649.html
> http://twa800.com/images/exhibit22c_radar.pdf
>
> It's a complex puzzle but in the final analysis, only
> the RIGHT pieces fit together into the real picture.
> I've found the reasoning of a number of folks to
> be compelling and in direct contradiction with
> the officially published accounts.
>
> If you feel compelled to learn and/or enjoy putting
> big puzzles together one could do worse than study
> what's out there on TWA800.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GM low oil sensor redux |
>
>Maybe I missed it in the continuing discussion of fuel tank explosions....
>but my original question was whether anyone had any experience with these
>inductive type switches and knew whether they are designed for direct
>application of 12volts or something less (I would prefer to not fry it
>finding out) :)
Don't understand this question. What's an "inductive
type" switch? Any switch is limited by it's physical
attributes and operating characteristics as described
in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
what are the ratings for the device you're considering.
When you wrote something about putting 12v directly
across the switch, were you saying that you blew it
up by having the switch hard-fault a 12v source? What
does this switch drive? The best thing is for the switch
to close to ground so that only lamp or some small
signal current flows in the switch under any conditions,
normal or faulted.
>Also, was there a final consensus on the contactor/diode question (bigger
>diode, TVS, or just say no)?
Haven't had time to wade through the threads on
contactor spike catchers. Did an article on the
subject at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
. . . the short answer is put a diode across the coil of
any inductive device such as a contactor or solenoid.
It will improve the life of the switching device. All
other concerns for whether or not movs, transorbs,
resistors, capacitors, etc, etc should be part of the
circuit are either myths or insignificant to the task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cary rhodes <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com> |
bob
I have a KT-78 king transponder.
I have a copy of your pin out legend.
But I don't understand the circuit column.
What do the A1, A2, B2 etc. numbers refer to??
Thanks for answering stupid questions a hundred times
I am sure.
cary rhodes
http://platinum.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: relay switch protection |
>
>This discussion got started over a shorted battery contactor coil dampening
>device and the concern of smoke or fire from an UN-fused circuit wired with
>22ga. wire used to supply the ground to the battery contactor. Although very
>unlikely, the contactor's coil could short, and again not very likely, the
>diode used to dampen the contactor's coil could short. All things
>considered, a diode is best for coil dampening performance. Most other
>devices will be a source for ringing or not clamp the voltage as low as can
>be done with a diode. We really are splitting hairs here though. An MOV
>will clamp it at some voltage just over 15 volts -not bad. While a diode
>will clamp it at .6 volts -better. I am going to insert a 5A fuse in my
>grounding leg at the contactor end of the 22ga. wire to be safe I think. One
>could increase the size of the wire to say 16, 12, 10 , etc., and let the
>shorted diode or coil become the fuse! I am not concerned about a failure
>that results in an open circuit. That will just have to be a failure that
>requires picking a spot to land. I just want to be reasonable enough to
>protect my ship from smoke in the cockpit.
>
>Again, this one circuit may be cause for concern only in the very remote
>chance that the contactor's coil shorts or the diode punches through. A
>simple fuse can set us all at ease.
True . . . but take care lest we become "uneasy" about
a whole lot of things that are so far down on the ladder
of concerns. The scenario you hypothesized, while obviously
not ZERO risk, it's tiny compared to the risk of your
wing bolts shearing off or your propeller flying away.
It's like those articles you read by new journalism
graduates who advise that you keep a first aid kit
in your car . . . I'll bet those articles have
precipitated the sales of bizillions of first aid
kits (you can find them in the automotive section
of any Walmart). In 40 years of driving a car, I
cannot recall a single instance of wishing I'd
bought that first aid kit. I've had several instances
where "aid" was necessary, but nothing contained
in that little tin box was going to be helpful.
Let's not load our airplanes up with "little tin
boxes" . . .
Bob . . .
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Outback, (out back in the garage)
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
Those are the encoder inputs, I believe.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "cary rhodes" <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: pin outs
>
> bob
>
> I have a KT-78 king transponder.
>
> I have a copy of your pin out legend.
>
> But I don't understand the circuit column.
>
> What do the A1, A2, B2 etc. numbers refer to??
>
>
> Thanks for answering stupid questions a hundred times
> I am sure.
>
> cary rhodes
>
>
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: exploding Jet-A |
But, did it have any liquid fuel in it? If not, the air-fuel mixture
could get to a stoichiometric level to support combustion.
Plus, in using the air chisel you are introducing an opening through
which air can enter, which can certainly allow it to achieve the proper
air-fuel ratio for combustion (even if there was alittle liquid in the
bottom), AND providing the spark for ignition... baaaad idea!
But, a sealed fuel tank does not provide the same scenario as far as I
can tell.
-John
Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> Fine Bob... Not wanting to get into a hoohaa over it...
> In a previous lifetime I happened to hang around the plant engineering
> department of a small, multinational automobile corporation... One of our
> perenniel problems was the exploding 55 gallon, steel drum... One in
> particular I remember was a millwright that managed to blow up a kerosene
> drum (similar to Jet A) that he was chiseling the top off from, with an
> airpowered chisel... At that point I issued an absolute ban on reusing 55
> gallon drums, which cost us some money but saved a lot more in the long
> run...
>
> Denny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: exploding Jet-A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>><jrourke@allied-computer.com>
>>>
>>>I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
>>>
>>>Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
>>>read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
>>>claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I haven't
>>>read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
>>>is still debated.
>>>
>>>No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
>>>recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
>>>
>>>-John R.
>>
>>>Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
>>>
>>>front
>>>
>>>>of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
>>>>(I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
>>>
>> There has been an exhaustive study of public data on
>> the TWA800 incident. I've read quite a bit of it with
>> particular interest discussions illuminated with
>> logic and good physics. Like all such cases, there
>> are plenty of "fog generators" in the discussion
>> including conspiracy theorists and (not the least
>> of which) are agencies of government with competing
>> agendas.
>>
>> The tank in question had to have unusable and/or
>> unused liquid fuel in it. I am mystified as to how
>> the vapor-space in any closed volume with liquid in
>> the bottom, dilutes what would normally be a nearly
>> saturated mixture of fuel/air down to a
>> stoichiometric ratio required for combustion with
>> a high release of energy with any fuel, much less
>> Jet-A. This is but ONE of many questions which I
>> find puzzling.
>>
>> You're free to evaluate for yourself. There are
>> many reasons to be suspicious of the engineering
>> and investigative techniques . . . but be prepared
>> to spend some time looking through the details.
>>
>> check out www.twa800.com
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~neteagle/
>>
>> Here's but one of many examples of logical, detailed and
>> independent analysis to be found with a bit of
>> websearching . . .
>>
>> http://www.compassionateweb.net/~missiletwa800/mann.htm
>>
>> and as a tip of the iceberg . . .
>>
>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24075
>> http://twa800.com/news/Stalcup.htm
>> http://www.flight800.org/sketch.htm
>> http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/second649.html
>> http://twa800.com/images/exhibit22c_radar.pdf
>>
>> It's a complex puzzle but in the final analysis, only
>> the RIGHT pieces fit together into the real picture.
>> I've found the reasoning of a number of folks to
>> be compelling and in direct contradiction with
>> the officially published accounts.
>>
>> If you feel compelled to learn and/or enjoy putting
>> big puzzles together one could do worse than study
>> what's out there on TWA800.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: runaway, self regulated alternators |
I see no point to beating a dead horse.
I resent your 'shot' about me not acting like an engineer You simply do not
know the extent of my training and experience. I simply am unwilling to
present facts based on unproven conjecture and or no longer or never known.
There is not always an clear engineering determination of the failure
method.
Surely you do not mean to infer that the the use of the "B" lead contactor
will prevent ALL failures that could cause overheating of the alternator.
I did have a shorted out (burned up) alternator, the damage was too large to
analyze properly. Several electrical engineers concluded the failure could
have been from shorted diodes in the alternator diode module and that
produced an internal load that prevented the high voltage that could over
current the field and shut the "heat" down. There was no indication of
external over loading or external overvoltage.
This was many years ago. As a design engineer I have found there is little
need to recall why things are not good designs as long as you remember that
an approach is not good and there is a better one that is available.
As you know one cannot always determine the initial cause of the failure,
but when most any assumption can be eliminated by a simple alternative
design, simply select the better approach and go on.
I would have presented proof if there was any ever determined. The engineers
doing the analysis concluded that an internal diode failure could result in
a shorted winding that would essentially short the alternator out preventing
overvoltage while all the current was used to heat the primary winding that
was shorted. Frankly I do not understand your not recognizing that failure
mode.
Your suggestion that the only failure method would result in an overvoltage
and resulting field fusing open is only one failure mode and while it may be
the most likely it is not in my experience the only one.
In any event I stand by my position that its safer to externally regulate
the alternator and is so easy to do. Simply use a different alternator or
modify the one you insist using. Small light 40-60 amp alternators are
available so why not use them. I disagree good alternators are hard to find.
Harder perhaps but they are out there.
Also I have looked at many ND alternators and also would not use them in an
aircraft. Common yes, simple to modify NO, poor slipring life, very common.
Not one found out of dozens from a junk yard had usable sliprings. The
position and seal used for slipring protection all flails to varying extent
and allowed grit inside and the sliprings were heavily worn down.
Why spend the same amount $ for the ND or much more for a converted ND when
other brands are similar in size and weight?, and better suited to aircraft
use.
Not that ND are bad, but I would suggest your comments about stamped sub "D"
pins vs machined pins is a similar case. Perhaps the stamped pins are harder
to properly use but properly assembled are the additional costs of machined
pins worth it? With proper harness support most wiring will outlast the
aircraft.
I fly a 67 Cessna from time to time and fine the factory wiring and wireing
support is the worst example of what seems to work in spite of what good
wiring should be.
I would not use a ND on my acft. Why spend 30-60K on an acft and save $100
or so on a lesser alternator.
I do not intend to keep this thread going with further comments. I think its
been beaten too much already. Sorry if I have failed to provide a suitable
(to you) reply.
Paul
> Let's be engineers here and dispel lingering
> doubts on the part of some who read this list. This
> is an IMPORTANT discussion Paul. The availability
> of alternators easily modified for external
> regulation is low. Availability of off-the-
> car alternators with stellar track records
> and built in regulators is high. If we're
> going to take advantage of what SHOULD be
> a trend toward utilization of commercial off
> the shelf products, we need to offer our
> brothers and sisters good reasons and lucid
> explanations for our recommendations based
> on the best engineering we know.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Those are the data lines for your encoder.
----- Original Message -----
From: "cary rhodes" <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: pin outs
>
> bob
>
> I have a KT-78 king transponder.
>
> I have a copy of your pin out legend.
>
> But I don't understand the circuit column.
>
> What do the A1, A2, B2 etc. numbers refer to??
>
>
> Thanks for answering stupid questions a hundred times
> I am sure.
>
> cary rhodes
>
>
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exploding Jet-A |
>
>
>Fine Bob... Not wanting to get into a hoohaa over it...
>In a previous lifetime I happened to hang around the plant engineering
>department of a small, multinational automobile corporation... One of our
>perenniel problems was the exploding 55 gallon, steel drum... One in
>particular I remember was a millwright that managed to blow up a kerosene
>drum (similar to Jet A) that he was chiseling the top off from, with an
>airpowered chisel... At that point I issued an absolute ban on reusing 55
>gallon drums, which cost us some money but saved a lot more in the long
>run...
it's a sure bet he thought he was doing a good thing
by working on a container that was "empty" . . . when
in fact, he would have been better off if it had been
half full.
A weld shop down the street from me when I was a kid
got a guy killed when he put a torch to a tank that
had been "washed out" . . . the same weld shop is
still there. They flush tanks to be repaired with
CO2 now . . .
The nose is an excellent safety tool here . . . but
if one smokes, perhaps that tool is compromised.
If you can smell any remnant of the stuff that
used to occupy the volume, you're not through
cleaning it -OR- you fill the volume with CO2 before
you start working on it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: runaway, self regulated alternators |
>
>
>I see no point to beating a dead horse.
>
>I resent your 'shot' about me not acting like an engineer You simply do not
>know the extent of my training and experience. I simply am unwilling to
>present facts based on unproven conjecture and or no longer or never known.
>There is not always an clear engineering determination of the failure
>method.
I said let US be good engineers here . . . perhaps it is I who
needs enlightened . . . I have offered data and hypothesis based
on what I believe is a logical assimilation of facts. So far,
you have voiced only concerns based on some smoked alternators
you have experienced/observed.
>Surely you do not mean to infer that the the use of the "B" lead contactor
>will prevent ALL failures that could cause overheating of the alternator.
Of course not, I've seen both internally and externally regulated
alternators go up in smoke with severe damage. In every case,
the alternators were connected to external loads during the
entire destruction sequence.
>I did have a shorted out (burned up) alternator, the damage was too large to
>analyze properly. Several electrical engineers concluded the failure could
>have been from shorted diodes in the alternator diode module and that
>produced an internal load that prevented the high voltage that could over
>current the field and shut the "heat" down. There was no indication of
>external over loading or external overvoltage.
>I would have presented proof if there was any ever determined.
Proof based on a single case observation is not what's needed here.
What I was asking for was a failure modes effects analysis that
shows how internal/external alternators stack up with each
other in similar failures.
> . . . The engineers
>doing the analysis concluded that an internal diode failure could result in
>a shorted winding that would essentially short the alternator out preventing
>overvoltage while all the current was used to heat the primary winding that
>was shorted. Frankly I do not understand your not recognizing that failure
>mode.
The failure modes that produce underage smoking on the part of
alternators can happen in both types and yes, without causing
an over-voltage condition . . . in fact, EVERY smoked alternator
I've pulled seen pulled from the wreckage did NOT participate in
an ov event and NONE of them were internally regulated. So
my question is, how is an internally regulated machine any
more hazardous?
>Your suggestion that the only failure method would result in an overvoltage
>and resulting field fusing open is only one failure mode and while it may be
>the most likely it is not in my experience the only one.
I suggested no such thing. Your premise as I understood it
said that an internally regulated alternator presents an increased
risk of fire because of mutually acknowledged OV failure modes that could
not be shut down peaceably from the outside . . . that even when we
included the b-lead contactor to protect the rest of the airplane
from impending doom, the alternator was still an increased risk
because it would operate in what has to be a relatively slow,
self destruction mode that would burn things up.
I offered that in an ov condition and the alternator unhooked from
the ship's systems that (1) the alternator's only load was its own
field winding and (2) the output voltage would do what faulted
alternators do best and rise to levels over 100 volts and (3) the field
winding
would last mere seconds with 25+ amps of current flowing in it.
>In any event I stand by my position that its safer to externally regulate
>the alternator and is so easy to do. Simply use a different alternator or
>modify the one you insist using. Small light 40-60 amp alternators are
>available so why not use them. I disagree good alternators are hard to find.
>Harder perhaps but they are out there.
>
>I do not intend to keep this thread going with further comments. I think its
>been beaten too much already. Sorry if I have failed to provide a suitable
>(to you) reply.
We're discussing two different failure scenarios one in which
no OV condition occurs and one where it does. You offered a
opinion for increased hazard due to the way internally regulated
alternators are wired and controlled. I thought I'd laid out
fact that show an ov condition with an internally regulated
but ISOLATED alternator terminates quickly and quietly. Further,
all other failures inclined to smoke the machine can happen with
EITHER type alternator thus making the extra-ordinary hazard for
the off-the-shelf internally regulated alternator difficult to
support. Let US be good engineers and figure out where this is wrong.
If you have an alternator with burned windings, bad diodes, etc
then we're not talking about an ov condition. Should
one become aware of the problem, both kinds alternators can be shut
down . . . except that the internally regulated alternator has
the decided ADVANTAGE of being unhooked from the system via the
b-lead contactor. It's unlikely that a pilot will become aware
of the problem before the alternator fails irretrievably
and disconnects itself via the b-lead fuse or breaker. Now,
if the pilot needs to see through an iced-over window now
gone cold . . . well . . . I've dug through that pile before.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | off line again . . . |
Leaving for Ft. Worth in a few minutes for a couple
of days of good airplane-speak with builders in George
and Becki's hangar. Back late Sunday night.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Canyon <steve.canyon(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: off line again . . . |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>Leaving for Ft. Worth in a few minutes for a couple
>of days of good airplane-speak with builders in George
>and Becki's hangar. Back late Sunday night.
Darn! And only a few miles from me! If you're still here, what is the
cost and schedule? I'll see if I can make it if at all possible.
Thanks,
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: off line again . . . |
Steve,
Check out the AeroElectric home page, the courses are listed there. Cost is
$150 or it was last year when I took it. Highly recommended, best value for
$150 I've gotten so far.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Canyon" <steve.canyon(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: off line again . . .
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >Leaving for Ft. Worth in a few minutes for a couple
> >of days of good airplane-speak with builders in George
> >and Becki's hangar. Back late Sunday night.
>
> Darn! And only a few miles from me! If you're still here, what is the
> cost and schedule? I'll see if I can make it if at all possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lonnie Benson" <lonben(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: off line again . . . |
Steve, go to www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/seminars.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Canyon" <steve.canyon(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: off line again . . .
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >Leaving for Ft. Worth in a few minutes for a couple
> >of days of good airplane-speak with builders in George
> >and Becki's hangar. Back late Sunday night.
>
> Darn! And only a few miles from me! If you're still here, what is the
> cost and schedule? I'll see if I can make it if at all possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lonnie Benson" <lonben(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Microair radio |
Rino,
Just incase you never received an answer to your question, try
www.xcom760.com. or www.becker-avionics.com.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rino" <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Microair radio
>
> Anyone have information about the new radio similar to the Microair.
> I am looking for a supplier of this radio
>
> Rino
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Donald Maziarz" <n2va(at)arrl.net> |
You Can Fly Them,
But Can You Wire Them?
What: Weekend seminar presented by The AeroElectric
Connection
Hosted by the National Capital Area
Chapter 186,
Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA)
When: June 7 0800 - 1700
June 8 0800 - 1200
Where: Manassas, VA at the Manassas Regional Airport
(HEF),
EAA 186 Chapter House, at the base of the
tower
Learn the ins and outs of wiring your homebuilt or
restoration project airplane.
Not building or restoring, then get a general
understanding of the aircraft
electrical systems.
Bob Nuckolls has 40 years of knowledge to share with
you.
Cost: $150 per person including a copy of Bob's super
book The AeroElectric Connection
Door Prizes
For more information and to register go to the seminar
area at http://www.aeroelectric.com/
Also note Bob's satisfaction guarantee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Call the ball ?? |
I have a small problem with my wife.
I'm building a Velocity in the garage at home and she who must be obeyed
parks her car alongside my Velocity. Recently she's taken to parking very
close to the Velocity (her Ford Explorer wheels pass within three inches of
the Velocity main gear) even though there is plenty of space on the other
side of her car. I've mentioned this a couple of times - big mistake. Sooo
I'm thinking I need to do something to provide her with lateral guidance. I
should mention there's a wooden frame I built to store the wings along the
back wall of the garage so she has to stop before she gets to the storage
rack also.
Options seem to be:
1) I act as a flagman every time she parks in the garage - not very
realistic and probably irritating to her so a non-starter
2) Nail some wood to the floor along the side of the plane and in front of
the storage rack so she'll know if she's too close to the plane or the
storage rack - a bit crude and I'll probably trip over it when I'm working
on the plane - so not a very attractive solution
3) Provide something a bit more sophisticated to provide lateral guidance
and tell her when to stop - much more fun !!
Seems to me what I need is something like a VASI turned sideways that'll
show red if she's too close to the plane and white is she's OK, also a
second light - or flash the VASI -when she should stop.
I've seen the tennis ball on a string hanging from the roof approach and
also seen these laser devices that point down to a spot on the dashboard.
neither seems very attractive so I was wondering if anyone has suggestions
for either the lateral VASI or stop light approach? I would power it from
the garage door opener
I'm electronically challenged so the simpler the better,
Thanks all
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Billie Lamb" <N254BL(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
I'd try erecting a cement block wall.
I tried the new wife approach and that cost me a Cessna 172.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Call the ball ??
>
> I have a small problem with my wife.
>
> I'm building a Velocity in the garage at home and she who must be obeyed
> parks her car alongside my Velocity. Recently she's taken to parking very
> close to the Velocity (her Ford Explorer wheels pass within three inches
of
> the Velocity main gear) even though there is plenty of space on the other
> side of her car. I've mentioned this a couple of times - big mistake. Sooo
> I'm thinking I need to do something to provide her with lateral guidance.
I
> should mention there's a wooden frame I built to store the wings along the
> back wall of the garage so she has to stop before she gets to the storage
> rack also.
>
> Options seem to be:
>
> 1) I act as a flagman every time she parks in the garage - not very
> realistic and probably irritating to her so a non-starter
> 2) Nail some wood to the floor along the side of the plane and in front of
> the storage rack so she'll know if she's too close to the plane or the
> storage rack - a bit crude and I'll probably trip over it when I'm working
> on the plane - so not a very attractive solution
> 3) Provide something a bit more sophisticated to provide lateral guidance
> and tell her when to stop - much more fun !!
>
> Seems to me what I need is something like a VASI turned sideways that'll
> show red if she's too close to the plane and white is she's OK, also a
> second light - or flash the VASI -when she should stop.
>
> I've seen the tennis ball on a string hanging from the roof approach and
> also seen these laser devices that point down to a spot on the dashboard.
> neither seems very attractive so I was wondering if anyone has suggestions
> for either the lateral VASI or stop light approach? I would power it from
> the garage door opener
>
> I'm electronically challenged so the simpler the better,
>
> Thanks all
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Call the ball ?? |
> I'm electronically challenged so the simpler the better,
Hang an expensive crystal vase containing fresh flowers from a wire on
you're side of the garage. Keep the flowers fresh and tell her they're there
to greet her every time she returns home. She'll never drive close to the
vase. You're plane will be safe, and you'll get a bonus point every time she
enters the garage.
John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
Tony,
I have the exact same situation with my dear little lady. We share a two
door two car garage with my Kitfox and her Toyota V6 Camry. She backs it in
and needs to be positioned a bit to the center so as to have ample room at
the left wall of the garage and the left side of her car. I put a tennis
ball on a rope in the perfect position for her to back up to. It has four
bright LEDs mounted on it that are powered from the door opener's light
circuit to annunciate itself in all lighting conditions. When she is on
target, the ball hits the high mounted break light in the rear window so that
she knows that "docking" is complete.
She only drives about five miles to work every day and so to preheat the
engine in the winter I have installed a cooling jacket block heater that
plugs into a timed outlet to preheat the engine from about 4 AM every
morning. This is my attempt to be sure that her engine has a chance to
obtain full operating temperature for her short run to work. She thinks I am
doing this to give her nearly instant heater output on those cold mornings!
J
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
Im trying to get my Infinity stick grip order ready since they take 6 weeks or
more to get. They also indicate they are busy and dont want to be pestered with
questions hence my questions here:
On the Flap switch (button #3 in my case), they mention using a "Vertically mounted
Toggle Switch [(ON)/OFF/(ON) or ON/OFF/(ON) SDPT] for flaps.
Then they mention "Also, we have ON/OFF/ON, ON/ON and ON/OFF Toggle Switches. Note:
brackets around the word "ON" [(ON)] in the Toggle Switch descriptions above
means that the toggle is momentary in that direction."
Later in a description of a standard set up for an aircraft WITH electric Flaps
- on switch #3, they say the following: "Flaps ON/OFF/(ON) toggle switch using
a limit switch on the UP side, or use a spring loaded-to-center (ON)/OFF/(ON)
toggle switch which means youll have to hold the Flap switch UP during a touch-and-go
or go-around - - not a good idea. Most dont use this switch (99+%)."
Im assuming the one I want is the (ON)/OFF/(ON) one. I dont understand their concern
in the paragraph above. I would think with the spring loaded-to-center switch
as long as I held it in the ON position, the flaps would move in that direction
once I let up on the switch it would return to center and the flaps
would stop where they happen to be. Isnt that what I want? Isnt that the way
the switch which came with my flap motor is set up? - The one I already have mounted
on my instrument panel?
I dont want a complicated flap system I just want a motor and an up and down switch
can it work that way?
Would adding a limit switch be a simple matter of a switch to break the line feeding
power to the motor when it runs in the up direction when the flaps get
to a certain point? or does it get more complicated than that?
Any guidance here would be appreciated. Also what might be the benefits of the
ON/OFF/(ON) toggle?
Thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
Julia wrote:
>
> Im trying to get my Infinity stick grip order ready since they take 6 weeks
or more to get. They also indicate they are busy and dont want to be pestered
with questions hence my questions here:
>
> On the Flap switch (button #3 in my case), they mention using a "Vertically mounted
Toggle Switch [(ON)/OFF/(ON) or ON/OFF/(ON) SDPT] for flaps.
>
> Later in a description of a standard set up for an aircraft WITH electric Flaps
- on switch #3, they say the following: "Flaps ON/OFF/(ON) toggle switch using
a limit switch on the UP side, or use a spring loaded-to-center (ON)/OFF/(ON)
toggle switch which means youll have to hold the Flap switch UP during a
touch-and-go or go-around - - not a good idea. Most dont use this switch (99+%)."
Julia;
The idea behind the ON/OFF/(ON) switch combined with an up limit is that when you
want "flaps up" you simply flip the switch to the up position and forget it.
The flaps run all the way up, then stop on the limit switch fully retracted.
In other words in the case of a "go round" you don't have to keep you finger
on the switch. (you can still stop them part way if you wish by turning the switch
off at the desired position) Flaps "down" is the spring loaded position which
you have to hold for
operation and motion stops when you let go where ever the flaps may be at that
time.
--
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
>
>
>Any guidance here would be appreciated. Also what might be the benefits of
>the ON/OFF/(ON) toggle?
I've used ON-OFF-(ON) for years for a speed brake and agree with JD on this
(there's very little I agree with him on).
If you have to go around, it's very awkward to have to keep pushing the
toggle up to get the flaps or brake to retract when you're also flying with
that hand. So, by making the up position not momentary, you flick it with
your thumb and then forget about it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
The idea is that if you have to go around, or even in general, it's easiest
if you can just flip the flap switch up and forget about it. The flaps will
go all the way up and stop.
In an RV, though (not sure if that's what you're building), the flap motor
will run endlessly if you leave it in the up position without a limit
switch. There's nothing technically wrong with that (although it could
conceivably wear the motor out prematurely), but it just bothers me
philosophically.
My plan is to install limit swithes for both down and up travel. A down
limit switch because I get about 50 degrees of flap travel if I let the
motor go until it spins, and the plans call for a maximum of 45 degrees. An
up limit switch (NC -- normally closed) because I don't want to mess around
with a momentary switch when I raise the flaps. I want to flip the switch
up and forget about it. The up limit switch will open the circuit when the
flaps reach the full-up position, and the motor will stop spinning.
NOTE: the up limit switch will only be in the UP circuit. The down limit
switch will only be in the DOWN circuit.
If you can live with the momentary up switch thing, then all of this is a
non-issue...you don't need any limit switches.
Hope this helps,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (canopy)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julia" <wings97302(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch.
>
>
> Im trying to get my Infinity stick grip order ready since they take 6
weeks or more to get. They also indicate they are busy and dont want to be
pestered with questions hence my questions here:
>
> On the Flap switch (button #3 in my case), they mention using a
"Vertically mounted Toggle Switch [(ON)/OFF/(ON) or ON/OFF/(ON) SDPT] for
flaps.
>
> Then they mention "Also, we have ON/OFF/ON, ON/ON and ON/OFF Toggle
Switches. Note: brackets around the word "ON" [(ON)] in the Toggle Switch
descriptions above means that the toggle is momentary in that direction."
>
> Later in a description of a standard set up for an aircraft WITH electric
Flaps - on switch #3, they say the following: "Flaps ON/OFF/(ON) toggle
switch using a limit switch on the UP side, or use a spring loaded-to-center
(ON)/OFF/(ON) toggle switch which means youll have to hold the Flap switch
UP during a touch-and-go or go-around - - not a good idea. Most dont use
this switch (99+%)."
>
>
> Im assuming the one I want is the (ON)/OFF/(ON) one. I dont understand
their concern in the paragraph above. I would think with the spring
loaded-to-center switch as long as I held it in the ON position, the flaps
would move in that direction once I let up on the switch it would return
to center and the flaps would stop where they happen to be. Isnt that what I
want? Isnt that the way the switch which came with my flap motor is set
up? - The one I already have mounted on my instrument panel?
>
> I dont want a complicated flap system I just want a motor and an up and
down switch can it work that way?
>
> Would adding a limit switch be a simple matter of a switch to break the
line feeding power to the motor when it runs in the up direction when the
flaps get to a certain point? or does it get more complicated than that?
>
> Any guidance here would be appreciated. Also what might be the benefits of
the ON/OFF/(ON) toggle?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim V. Wickert" <JimW_btg(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
Hi Julia,
For Flap control one question you must ask yourself with the type aircraft
are there only two flap positions needed one being in the take off and the
other being in the landing positions. If you do not need additional
positions for various loading conditions etc. then the simple switch and
two limit switch is all you will require.
Major question I would have with anyone I am spending my hard earned cash
with to purchase their product and there are some options that could be
critical to the application and they had the attitude " indicate they are
busy and dont want to be pestered with questions", I would question even
purchasing from them. Its their product and they should be the expert on
its application and want the customer to end up with the proper
installation. I would look some where else with that attitude.
Maybe we are spoiled from working with Steve Rahm at Vision Aricraft or Bob
at Aeroelectric,these guys are the best, but I know there are several other
companies in the EXP market that would be very happy to work with you in
order to get your business. Just think wha the responce will be if you
have a problem with the product quality of functionality?????
Jim Wickert
Vision #159
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
I guess I'm a one percenter. My grip has the momentary up mode. I tested my
RV flap, full travel time, on the bench - about 5 seconds. I'm not flying
yet so I don't know if that will hold up under load, but it could be even
less. Has anyone timed this in flight with a RV? Other aircraft are
probably different.
I can't imagine a problem moving my thumb 1/2" to hold the flap switch for 5
seconds while manipulating the controls. If I want to bleed off flaps, thumb
movement to stop up flaps takes a much larger digital displacement. I also
didn't think it was worth the extra complexity of the limit switch.
> Most dont use this switch (99+%)
>
Bob Trumpfheller
Building a RV7A in western Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
I've had just the opposite experience with Infinity. All the help I wanted
and no hurry.
> Major question I would have with anyone I am spending my hard earned cash
> with to purchase their product and there are some options that could be
> critical to the application and they had the attitude " indicate they are
> busy and dont want to be pestered with questions",
Bob Trumpfheller
Building a RV7A in western Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
Genius, pure genius.!!
> Hang an expensive crystal vase containing fresh flowers from a wire on
> you're side of the garage. Keep the flowers fresh and tell her they're
there
> to greet her every time she returns home. She'll never drive close to the
> vase. You're plane will be safe, and you'll get a bonus point every time
she
> enters the garage.
> John Slade
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
On the other hand, I recently e-mailed some questions and got a response
from JD the next day. I've got one of these grips and it is a good
product. The switches are all wired up with a nice cable. It makes for a
very clean installation. I went with the momentary switch on both up and
down for simplicity and so that I wouldn't forget and leave it running.
I don't think it would be that hard to solder in a new switch if I hate
it that way. I haven't flown it so I'll have to wait and see if I made
the right choice.
If you don't use the momentary, and you don't like the idea of a limit
switch, you could put an indicator light on the panel to remind you to
turn it off when you're done with the go around.
Ed Holyoke
6qb
>
>
> Hi Julia,
> snip
> Major question I would have with anyone I am spending my hard earned
cash
> with to purchase their product and there are some options that could
be
> critical to the application and they had the attitude " indicate they
are
> busy and dont want to be pestered with questions", I would question
even
> purchasing from them. Its their product and they should be the expert
on
> its application and want the customer to end up with the proper
> installation. I would look some where else with that attitude.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
I've got a left handed infinity grip for my throttle, and the cyclic out of
an Apache for my stick. I THINK it's enough buttons.
>
>On the other hand, I recently e-mailed some questions and got a response
>from JD the next day. I've got one of these grips and it is a good
>product. The switches are all wired up with a nice cable. It makes for a
>very clean installation. I went with the momentary switch on both up and
>down for simplicity and so that I wouldn't forget and leave it running.
>I don't think it would be that hard to solder in a new switch if I hate
>it that way. I haven't flown it so I'll have to wait and see if I made
>the right choice.
>
>If you don't use the momentary, and you don't like the idea of a limit
>switch, you could put an indicator light on the panel to remind you to
>turn it off when you're done with the go around.
>
>Ed Holyoke
>6qb
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Julia,
> > snip
>
> > Major question I would have with anyone I am spending my hard earned
>cash
> > with to purchase their product and there are some options that could
>be
> > critical to the application and they had the attitude " indicate they
>are
> > busy and dont want to be pestered with questions", I would question
>even
> > purchasing from them. Its their product and they should be the expert
>on
> > its application and want the customer to end up with the proper
> > installation. I would look some where else with that attitude.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
> I've had just the opposite experience with Infinity. All the help I
> wanted
> and no hurry.
>
Concurrence with this mentioned response about Infinity.
Had e-mail and Voice communication with JD and some useful advice
regarding my requirements from my UK base.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
mailto://gnholland(at)onetel.com
+44 7808 402404
Europa XS 384
G-FIZY
The greatest enjoyment from existence is living dangerously....
Friedrich Nietzsche
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
Your local chandler may be able to provide something suitable -- a navigation
light for a yacht may suffice. I'm thinking of the kind that goes on a mast
and looks red or green depending on the angle from which it is viewed. Like
a PAPI, they swap from one state to another in a very small angular
difference. Of course, which way up you would need to mount it would depend
on which side the plane is.
An alternative approach would be to have a number of LEDs mounted around the
inside a can, with a series of slots cut around the can, opposite the LEDs.
This would be an inexpensive version of the same thing, whereby the LED for a
particular slot would only be viewable from a particular angle.
Less expensive yet, how about *two* tennis balls, one hung down for each side
of the car? Your good lady wife would simply have to drive between them.
You could augment it with a third, directly ahead of the windscreen for the
fore and aft positioning.
Hope this helps.
Nev
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Call the ball ??
>
> I have a small problem with my wife.
>
> I'm building a Velocity in the garage at home and she who must be obeyed
> parks her car alongside my Velocity. Recently she's taken to parking very
> close to the Velocity (her Ford Explorer wheels pass within three inches of
> the Velocity main gear) even though there is plenty of space on the other
> side of her car. I've mentioned this a couple of times - big mistake. Sooo
> I'm thinking I need to do something to provide her with lateral guidance. I
> should mention there's a wooden frame I built to store the wings along the
> back wall of the garage so she has to stop before she gets to the storage
> rack also.
>
> Options seem to be:
>
> 1) I act as a flagman every time she parks in the garage - not very
> realistic and probably irritating to her so a non-starter
> 2) Nail some wood to the floor along the side of the plane and in front of
> the storage rack so she'll know if she's too close to the plane or the
> storage rack - a bit crude and I'll probably trip over it when I'm working
> on the plane - so not a very attractive solution
> 3) Provide something a bit more sophisticated to provide lateral guidance
> and tell her when to stop - much more fun !!
>
> Seems to me what I need is something like a VASI turned sideways that'll
> show red if she's too close to the plane and white is she's OK, also a
> second light - or flash the VASI -when she should stop.
>
> I've seen the tennis ball on a string hanging from the roof approach and
> also seen these laser devices that point down to a spot on the dashboard.
> neither seems very attractive so I was wondering if anyone has suggestions
> for either the lateral VASI or stop light approach? I would power it from
> the garage door opener
>
> I'm electronically challenged so the simpler the better,
>
> Thanks all
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
>
>
>Im trying to get my Infinity stick grip order ready since they take
>6 weeks or more to get. They also indicate they are busy and dont
>want to be pestered with questions hence my questions here:
>
>On the Flap switch (button #3 in my case), they mention using a
>"Vertically mounted Toggle Switch [(ON)/OFF/(ON) or ON/OFF/(ON)
>SDPT] for flaps.
>
>Then they mention "Also, we have ON/OFF/ON, ON/ON and ON/OFF Toggle
>Switches. Note: brackets around the word "ON" [(ON)] in the Toggle
>Switch descriptions above means that the toggle is momentary in that
>direction."
>
>Later in a description of a standard set up for an aircraft WITH
>electric Flaps - on switch #3, they say the following: "Flaps
>ON/OFF/(ON) toggle switch using a limit switch on the UP side, or
>use a spring loaded-to-center (ON)/OFF/(ON) toggle switch which
>means youll have to hold the Flap switch UP during a touch-and-go or
>go-around - - not a good idea. Most dont use this switch (99+%)."
>
>
>Im assuming the one I want is the (ON)/OFF/(ON) one. I dont
>understand their concern in the paragraph above. I would think with
>the spring loaded-to-center switch as long as I held it in the ON
>position, the flaps would move in that direction once I let up on
>the switch it would return to center and the flaps would stop where
>they happen to be. Isnt that what I want? Isnt that the way the
>switch which came with my flap motor is set up? - The one I already
>have mounted on my instrument panel?
>
>I dont want a complicated flap system I just want a motor and an up
>and down switch can it work that way?
>
>Would adding a limit switch be a simple matter of a switch to break
>the line feeding power to the motor when it runs in the up
>direction when the flaps get to a certain point? or does it get
>more complicated than that?
>
>Any guidance here would be appreciated. Also what might be the
>benefits of the ON/OFF/(ON) toggle?
>
>Thanks
My RV is not flying yet, so I don't know if this is relevant or not,
but here goes: I'm assuming you have electric pitch trim, using the
coolie hat on the stick grip. If so, will you want to be using the
pitch trim as the flaps come up during a go-around? Will you have
enough fingers to hold a momentary flap switch to the up position and
also use the trim? I'm not sure how much the stick forces will
change during a go-around, so I'm not sure if you will want to be
trimming or not.
I pondered putting flap switches on the stick, but eventually decided
I didn't want any switches on the stick that could cause a problem if
they got inadvertently selected. I'm not sure the flaps are stressed
to take an extension at high speed. I put the flap switch on the
instrument panel just above the throttle. It is spring loaded in
both directions. In a go around, I'll apply the power, then reach up
with my index finger and hold the flap switch until they are up.
Just my two cents worth,
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
In a message dated 3/22/2003 7:38:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
khorto1537(at)rogers.com writes:
> I pondered putting flap switches on the stick, but eventually decided
> I didn't want any switches on the stick that could cause a problem if
> they got inadvertently selected. I'm not sure the flaps are stressed
> to take an extension at high speed. I put the flap switch on the
> instrument panel just above the throttle. It is spring loaded in
> both directions. In a go around, I'll apply the power, then reach up
> with my index finger and hold the flap switch until they are up.
>
> Just my two cents worth,
> --
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>
>
Kevin,
My flaps are manual only on my Kitfox but I wanted to say that I like your
safety logic in keeping flap control off the stick. However, why not have
your "flaps up" switch position non-spring loaded? You could get too busy in
a go around to hold that flaps up switch for the entire travel time needed.
The addition of an end switch for the flap motor would be required.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
In a message dated 3/21/03 11:02:25 PM Central Standard Time,
wings97302(at)yahoo.com writes:
> Im assuming the one I want is the (ON)/OFF/(ON) one. I dont understand their
> concern in the paragraph above. I would think with the spring
> loaded-to-center switch as long as I held it in the ON position, the flaps
> would move in that direction once I let up on the switch it would return
> to center and the flaps would stop where they happen to be. Isnt that what
> I want? Isnt that the way the switch which came with my flap motor is set
> up? - The one I already have mounted on my instrument panel?
>
> I dont want a complicated flap system I just want a motor and an up and
> down switch can it work that way?
>
Good Morning wings97302,
For what it is worth, my spam can has an ON/OFF/ON switch for the flaps.
There are limit switches at both the Up and the Down positions. It was wired
that way at the factory as was true for the first 10,178 Bonanzas that were
built.
I personally find it very useful that way, I can start the flaps down and use
that hand for something else while the flaps are in transit. When they get
to where I want them, it is easy to flip the switch back to neutral to get
them stopped.
Back in another life, I flew the Douglas DC-3 and DC-4. Both of those
aircraft had their hydraulically actuated flaps set up the same way. We
would move the flap lever to the up or down position. Use our hand for doing
whatever else needed to be done, then stop the flaps where we wanted them by
setting the lever to neutral. Worked fine. By the time the DC-6 and DC-7
came on the scene, the ergonomics guys had decided that we needed something
that would keep us stupid pilots from setting the wrong flap by forgetting to
neutralize the flap lever. The biggest concern came from the CAA
(predecessor to the FAA). Since we had to retract the flaps from the
approach or landing flap to a lesser setting for the go around, they wanted a
preset position to which the lever could be set. They had no confidence that
we aviators could handle it the way it had been done since the DC-3 was first
built.
Personally, I prefer the way it was originally. That allows an infinite
range of positions for the flap, however, the pre-positioning does have an
advantage for those aircraft which do have critical flap settings on a go
around.
For most GA aircraft, the flap desired on a go around is full up.
Intermediate settings are generally not required. If the approach is flown
at a speed at, or above, the flaps up best rate of climb speed, the flaps can
be retracted instantly without any detrimental effect provided the aircraft
is rotated as fast as the flaps are retracted. If the aircraft has barn door
flaps like the Cessna 180/185 series, a flap motor that runs at a speed that
will take five to ten seconds for the flaps to retract will allow adequate
time for the aircraft to be accelerated to flaps up best angle of climb speed
while the flaps are coming up.
I think a momentary flap position switch would be the least desirable of the
options available.
The ON/OFF/ON is my favorite, though the extra complexity of pre positioned
settings may be useful for aircraft with very powerful lift providing flap
systems.
However, the beauty of a home made aircraft is that you can do it any way YOU
like.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Amen...I'm another one percenter. I originally wanted on the (On)Off(On)
flap switch, but let JD talk me out of it when ordering and went with the
(On)Off-On instead. He makes a great product but is very opinionated and
thinks that what works for him is best for everyone else. Anyway, I
regretted it later and ended up ordering replacement switches for two
positions, the flaps being one of them....cost me another $25 and the
time to replace/resolder the connections.
I say get what makes YOU happy. For the RV-8A, I see no problem with the
(On)Off(On) switch....I have it mounted on the top left position of the
stick grip, operated by my thumb....very easy to hold when pushing the
flaps up, and still fly at the same time. I can still hit the PTT with
my index finger, and my cockpit is set up for all other functions to be
done with my left hand so I don't need to do a bunch of hand-swapping
while trying to fly the plane. One other note....the RV climbs so well
that you don't even have to get the flaps up to go around under the vast
majority of conditions (unless perhaps you're at 10k' density altitude at
max gross weight with FP prop perhaps?). I just don't think it's a big
deal, and prefer holding the switch until flaps are up to having a limit
switch or having to remember half way into the flight that I left the
flap motor running.
Do what you like and hold your ground when you call JD cuz he'll try to
tell you how do do it "right" and it may not be the best for you....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring and fwf....
From: N67BT(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch.
I guess I'm a one percenter. My grip has the momentary up mode. I
tested my
RV flap, full travel time, on the bench - about 5 seconds. I'm not
flying
yet so I don't know if that will hold up under load, but it could be even
less. Has anyone timed this in flight with a RV? Other aircraft are
probably different.
I can't imagine a problem moving my thumb 1/2" to hold the flap switch
for 5
seconds while manipulating the controls. If I want to bleed off flaps,
thumb
movement to stop up flaps takes a much larger digital displacement. I
also
didn't think it was worth the extra complexity of the limit switch.
> Most dont use this switch (99+%)
>
Bob Trumpfheller
Building a RV7A in western Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
>
>In a message dated 3/22/2003 7:38:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>khorto1537(at)rogers.com writes:
>
>> I pondered putting flap switches on the stick, but eventually decided
>> I didn't want any switches on the stick that could cause a problem if
>> they got inadvertently selected. I'm not sure the flaps are stressed
>> to take an extension at high speed. I put the flap switch on the
>> instrument panel just above the throttle. It is spring loaded in
>> both directions. In a go around, I'll apply the power, then reach up
>> with my index finger and hold the flap switch until they are up.
>>
>> Just my two cents worth,
>> --
>> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>> Ottawa, Canada
>> http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>>
>>
>
>Kevin,
>
>My flaps are manual only on my Kitfox but I wanted to say that I like your
>safety logic in keeping flap control off the stick. However, why not have
>your "flaps up" switch position non-spring loaded? You could get too busy in
>a go around to hold that flaps up switch for the entire travel time needed.
>The addition of an end switch for the flap motor would be required.
>
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
I thought about a non-spring loaded flaps up position, but I knew
that I would forget to put the switch back to the centre position
every once in a while. The motor runs free once it reaches full
travel in either direction, so it isn't putting any load on the
structure, but I was afraid that it could eventually overheat, as I
don't believe it is designed to run continuously. I didn't want the
added complexity of limit switches to turn the flap motor off, as
parts that aren't installed are cheaper, lighter, more reliable and
require less maintenance than parts that are installed.
I don't believe that go-arounds in my RV will be so busy that I'll
need to let go of the flap switch. The mixture and prop levers will
be full forward before landing, I don't have carb heat, and the PTT
switch is on the stick, so I don't think my left hand will have much
to do during a go-around except push the throttle and take care of
the flaps.
We each need to do whatever will work for us, and our aircraft.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
In a message dated 3/22/2003 9:09:19 AM Mountain Standard Time,
nhulin(at)hotmail.com writes:
>
> Share? Share the garage? Dodge Caravan, pregnant, heavy snow all winter.
> Share they say, Hah.
>
> From: Janelle, wife of Neil.
>
>
Now thats what I call a GREAT CO-PILOT !!!!!!!! Wait, hold the presses....
Is her Caravan outside or in???????? I can't tell if she is happy or been
sweepin snow off the car all winter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "nhulin" <nhulin(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Call the ball ?? |
Actually, the car has been outside since the box with the wing kit arrived
last summer and took over the "other half" of the garage. There could be
some psychological leverage here. If she wants the car back in the garage
she is best to encourage me to get out there and build the airplane. The
sooner the airplane is finished, the sooner the car gets back in the garage.
...neil (husband of Janelle)
> From: Benford2(at)aol.com
> Date: Sat Mar 22 - 8:22 AM
>
>> In a message dated 3/22/2003 9:09:19 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>> nhulin(at)hotmail.com writes:
>>
>> Share? Share the garage? Dodge Caravan, pregnant, heavy snow all winter.
>> Share they say, Hah.
>>
>> From: Janelle, wife of Neil.
> Now thats what I call a GREAT CO-PILOT !!!!!!!! Wait, hold the
presses....
> Is her Caravan outside or in???????? I can't tell if she is happy or been
> sweepin snow off the car all winter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | It mustn't continue.............. |
Sorry, but............. it's time to draw its line.
"Its" is posessive.
"It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
"It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
"It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
"It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
"It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
Ferg
A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Tate" <tate(at)onlinemac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Call the ball ?? |
This sounds very familiar to the energy around my project two years ago. I
am now building wings in the living room with the stereo tuned to my station
as loud and late as I desire. Grocery shopping is a bit of a drag. Like
aviation, life is full of trade offs.
Ed Tate
RV3
Looking for a cook
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of nhulin
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Call the ball ??
Actually, the car has been outside since the box with the wing kit arrived
last summer and took over the "other half" of the garage. There could be
some psychological leverage here. If she wants the car back in the garage
she is best to encourage me to get out there and build the airplane. The
sooner the airplane is finished, the sooner the car gets back in the garage.
...neil (husband of Janelle)
> From: Benford2(at)aol.com
> Date: Sat Mar 22 - 8:22 AM
>
>> In a message dated 3/22/2003 9:09:19 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>> nhulin(at)hotmail.com writes:
>>
>> Share? Share the garage? Dodge Caravan, pregnant, heavy snow all winter.
>> Share they say, Hah.
>>
>> From: Janelle, wife of Neil.
> Now thats what I call a GREAT CO-PILOT !!!!!!!! Wait, hold the
presses....
> Is her Caravan outside or in???????? I can't tell if she is happy or been
> sweepin snow off the car all winter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harold Kovac" <kayce(at)sysmatrix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: It mustn't continue.............. |
Amen, I've often wondered what has happened to our educational system. I see
non native users with better english skills than some of our native born
writers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: It mustn't continue..............
>
> Sorry, but............. it's time to draw its line.
> "Its" is posessive.
> "It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
> "It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
> "It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
> "It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
> "It's" is short for "it is" or "it has".
>
> Ferg
> A064
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
Janelle,
You're a saint and wonderful role model for the spouses of all homebuilders.
Does your husband realize he's the envy of most of the rest of us?
----- Original Message -----
From: "nhulin" <nhulin(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Call the ball ??
>
> Share? Share the garage? Dodge Caravan, pregnant, heavy snow all winter.
> Share they say, Hah.
>
>From: Janelle, wife of Neil.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | It mustn't continue.............. |
> I see non native users with better english skills than some of our native
born
> writers
And where, exactly, does a "native born" ENGLISH writer come from?
John Slade
English, and proud of it, but proud also to live in the 'other' land of the
free.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 7-Day Matronics List Browse Enhancement... |
Dear Listers,
Neil Hulin of the Zenith-List at Matronics wrote to me suggesting I add a
"total of available messages" column to the 7-Day List Browse Main page,
and it seemed like a great idea! I've made the modifications and I think
many will find it extremely helpful as well. Have a look at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse/
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin...
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave" <dave(at)bestnetpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 7-Day Matronics List Browse Enhancement... |
This is just Terriffic! "Posts at a glance"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Dralle
To: dralle(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 7-Day Matronics List Browse Enhancement...
Dear Listers,
Neil Hulin of the Zenith-List at Matronics wrote to me suggesting I add a
"total of available messages" column to the 7-Day List Browse Main page,
and it seemed like a great idea! I've made the modifications and I think
many will find it extremely helpful as well. Have a look at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse/
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin...
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
"Full coverage $2.498 per year while I am building the kit $400. per year
and it would go up when I get the engine."
Is there a comma in there?
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
I've got B&C's 1.5 AMP dimmer using a heat sink and LM317K
they show pins #4,8,7,9 & 5 all go to instrument lights - can I just tie my green
instrument light wires all together and then run one wire to just one of these
pins on this dimmer control system?
thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harold Kovac" <kayce(at)sysmatrix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: It mustn't continue.............. |
In this context the US, rarely from some other nation where English is the
principal language
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: It mustn't continue..............
>
> > I see non native users with better english skills than some of our
native
> born
> > writers
>
> And where, exactly, does a "native born" ENGLISH writer come from?
> John Slade
> English, and proud of it, but proud also to live in the 'other' land of
the
> free.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: exploding Jet-A |
It was supposedly dead empty - who knows... I had banned using a torch on
drums 18 months before that... He also was supposed to fill it with water
before cutting any metal... But if you know anything about millwrights they
are long on getting a bigger hammer and short on listening...
As far as fuel tanks in aircraft, they are vented or you wouldn't be able to
remove the fuel... And, oxygen is one of the most pervasive gases in getting
where you don't want it... Just try keeping oxygen out of any container and
you will notice that fact...
Add heat from the air conditioner pack against the floor of the tank, add an
overheated fuel pump that is supposed to be immersed for cooling but isn't,
add a spark from wiring running through the tank - fer gawds sake - and you
get a boom...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Rourke" <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: exploding Jet-A
<jrourke@allied-computer.com>
>
> But, did it have any liquid fuel in it? If not, the air-fuel mixture
> could get to a stoichiometric level to support combustion.
>
> Plus, in using the air chisel you are introducing an opening through
> which air can enter, which can certainly allow it to achieve the proper
> air-fuel ratio for combustion (even if there was alittle liquid in the
> bottom), AND providing the spark for ignition... baaaad idea!
>
> But, a sealed fuel tank does not provide the same scenario as far as I
> can tell.
>
> -John
>
>
> Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > Fine Bob... Not wanting to get into a hoohaa over it...
> > In a previous lifetime I happened to hang around the plant engineering
> > department of a small, multinational automobile corporation... One of
our
> > perenniel problems was the exploding 55 gallon, steel drum... One in
> > particular I remember was a millwright that managed to blow up a
kerosene
> > drum (similar to Jet A) that he was chiseling the top off from, with an
> > airpowered chisel... At that point I issued an absolute ban on reusing
55
> > gallon drums, which cost us some money but saved a lot more in the long
> > run...
> >
> > Denny
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> > To:
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: exploding Jet-A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>><jrourke@allied-computer.com>
> >>>
> >>>I believe you are referring to a 737 in Manila in May 1990?
> >>>
> >>>Although explosive residue was not found, the possibility remains - I
> >>>read a report where the passenger decking being pushed upwards was
> >>>claimed to not be consistent with a fuel-tank explosion... but I
haven't
> >>>read much on it, just wanted to mention that the root cause of that one
> >>>is still debated.
> >>>
> >>>No other fuel-tank explosions are known in 80 years of airline
> >>>recordkeeping, according to the same reports.
> >>>
> >>>-John R.
> >>
> >>>Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>And the center tank that exploded and burned on the ramp in Bahrain in
> >>>
> >>>front
> >>>
> >>>>of cameras and witnesses was bogus also?
> >>>>(I think it was Bahrain - if not feel free to correct the location)
> >>>
> >> There has been an exhaustive study of public data on
> >> the TWA800 incident. I've read quite a bit of it with
> >> particular interest discussions illuminated with
> >> logic and good physics. Like all such cases, there
> >> are plenty of "fog generators" in the discussion
> >> including conspiracy theorists and (not the least
> >> of which) are agencies of government with competing
> >> agendas.
> >>
> >> The tank in question had to have unusable and/or
> >> unused liquid fuel in it. I am mystified as to how
> >> the vapor-space in any closed volume with liquid in
> >> the bottom, dilutes what would normally be a nearly
> >> saturated mixture of fuel/air down to a
> >> stoichiometric ratio required for combustion with
> >> a high release of energy with any fuel, much less
> >> Jet-A. This is but ONE of many questions which I
> >> find puzzling.
> >>
> >> You're free to evaluate for yourself. There are
> >> many reasons to be suspicious of the engineering
> >> and investigative techniques . . . but be prepared
> >> to spend some time looking through the details.
> >>
> >> check out www.twa800.com
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~neteagle/
> >>
> >> Here's but one of many examples of logical, detailed and
> >> independent analysis to be found with a bit of
> >> websearching . . .
> >>
> >> http://www.compassionateweb.net/~missiletwa800/mann.htm
> >>
> >> and as a tip of the iceberg . . .
> >>
> >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24075
> >> http://twa800.com/news/Stalcup.htm
> >> http://www.flight800.org/sketch.htm
> >> http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/second649.html
> >> http://twa800.com/images/exhibit22c_radar.pdf
> >>
> >> It's a complex puzzle but in the final analysis, only
> >> the RIGHT pieces fit together into the real picture.
> >> I've found the reasoning of a number of folks to
> >> be compelling and in direct contradiction with
> >> the officially published accounts.
> >>
> >> If you feel compelled to learn and/or enjoy putting
> >> big puzzles together one could do worse than study
> >> what's out there on TWA800.
> >>
> >> Bob . . .
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: runaway, self regulated alternators//FMEA |
Bob,
One last try as I do not seem to have a reply from you that addresses my
failure mode (remember, its what I think you say, not what you think you are
saying :-) ). The following discussion is generic in nature and does not
address specific design details in a real alternator. Alternators have
several different internal winding and diode designs and its not reasonable
to address them all, nor is it reasonable to assume all will fail in the
same way with the same external conditions.
For the readers who do not want to get into the details read the final
paragraph (s) of conclusions.
First, I believe you are saying that disconnecting the "B" lead to a
uncontrolled (failed internal regulator in the failed "FULL ON" mode)
alternator will result in the alternator's output voltage (with no external
load) will rise to around 100V and that will produce some 25 amps thru the
22 G field winding which will fuse open in several seconds and the result is
no excess heat and a safe shutdown of the alternator. The "B" lead contactor
will open unloading the alternator and prevent external OV. I agree that
externally that will happen. Internally I do not agree however.
You have a nice theory (that the internal voltage will go to 100V and stay
for several seconds while the field winding fuses) but just how does the
alternator voltage magically go to 100V and stay there while the field fuses
open? What is the internal alternator design (and common to ALL alternator
designs as you state the failure mode result is common to all) that limits
the voltage to some value below the internal diode voltage failure rating
that my failure mode suggests?
Consider the following (mostly for the non technical members of the list).
The alternator is a current source and is also a current amplifier. IE: IF 1
amp of field current will produce, for example, 15 amps of current to the
"B" lead. Then 2 amps of field current will produce 30 amps of "B" lead
current etc. The regulator simply looks at the "B" lead VOLTAGE and controls
the field current as needed to keep the voltage at the set point of say 14V.
If field current control is lost and the field current goes higher than the
resulting external current load can handle the output voltage increases
until the "B" lead current is externally loaded to the produced current. The
alternator voltage will increase as much as needed to keep the field
controlled "B" current flowing. If the field current max is 4 amps from the
above example the alternator will increase the output voltage as needed
until the load is sinking 60 amps. Thus I am saying the "B" lead voltage
will rise (and extremely fast) to the point where the load current matches
the generated current. If this is 60 amps and the load is suddenly
disconnected the voltage rises in a very small fraction of one second to
what is needed to load the "B" current. As there is no internal load to
handle that 60 amp current, the voltage rises to the point of internal diode
failure short(I believe this will be the primary or most common first
failure). As the diodes are rated to handle the current there is no fast
burning open of the shorted diodes (at least in the short term). Thus the
voltage is now controlled by the shorted windings that can handle the
current and that drops the generated voltage to an relatively low value and
thus there is no 100V and 25 amps thru the field and no 10 seconds to burn
out the field and keep the main current thru the shorted windings from
producing internal heat. The internal alternator heats up and may burn the
field open first or may get really hot as my real experience showed. What
fails first at this point depends on the specific alternator design and what
additional internal failures happen.
Simply stated, a high uncontrolled field current produces a high "B" current
that must be loaded to prevent the voltage from rising to what ever voltage
is needed to provide the current load. Something will eventually fail.
Perhaps it will be the field fusing open and perhaps it will be the diodes
failing short or perhaps something else but the internal unloaded voltage
will rise until something cuts the field current and or provides the needed
load. My contention is the internal unloaded voltage will rise in a few
milliseconds (not seconds) to the diode failure point. Then the shorted
windings take the current load and produce internal heat. My contention is
based on a real failure and the resulting failure analysis of three
professional engineers who were employed in a major company's failure
analysis engineering department. No specific conclusions could be made due
to the extreme damage to the alternator (including charred Field and power
windings as well as shorted diodes and partially melted aluminum case). I am
ignoring the inductance and resistance etc of the "REAL" circuit as it is a
second order effect to my point.
For the interested (not really relevant to the discussion in my opinion) The
failure was on a LYC powered experimental aircraft with a fuse on the "B"
output and a bus OV that opened the 12V to the alternator control. At the
time, the owner builder assumed the regulator could not fall such that the
field current went on full (this is a widespread belief among auto service
people). We were told the OV tripped (opening the 12V supply to the
alternator) and the "B" fuse opened (opening the "B" lead). There is no
timing or sequence of events available. The builder noted no alternator
output from the above indicators and on inspection discovered the alternator
smoked and the drive belt heat damaged. Nothing was damaged in the aircraft
but then as far as the pilot remembered nothing was on including any
avionics so the only external load was the battery.
While you have suggested a Failure Modes and Effects (FMEA), I have never
seen a proper FMEA on the subject from anyone outside large industry. A
proper FMEA on an alternator's failure modes would be long and complex and
likely to exceed 100 different failure modes, most of which assessed as very
unlikely. Each alternator design would require some part of the FMEA to be
unique to that alternator so no common to all FMEA is possible.
CONCLUSIONS:
I believe the only way to safely shut down an uncontrolled alternator is to
stop the field current. As long as there is field current there will be
uncontrolled "B" current and uncontrolled current going somewhere. I
disagree the runaway voltage will always be controlled to a voltage that is
below diode ratings and thus will allow time for the field to burn open from
excessive current. One or more shorted diodes can result in greatly reduced
internal voltage and thus reduced field current while providing an internal
load that creats heat. Its reasonably easy to short out the field externally
(bring out a brush lead) with an internally regulated alternator in addition
to the "B" lead contactor for those who insist in using such an alternator.
Given the many different alternator designs in production there is too many
variables to count on the safe internal fusing of the field current.
For an External regulated alternator, there is no connection from the "B" to
the field and cutting the power to the field (regulator) is simple and does
the job in all cases.
For the internally regulated alternator its an entirely different case. Here
load removal FORCES a second failure (field current removal) to occur before
the alternator is 'safe'. This is where we disagree in that I do not agree
the field will always fuse open soon enough to prevent overheating of the
entire alternator. I am assuming the external load was disconnected at the
time of the initial failure.
The above referenced partial "expert " failure analysis demonstrated to me
that at least in some cases simple load removal was not enough (and frankly
none of my peers {experienced electronics engineers} can understand how the
removal of the load will result in magically limiting the voltage to less
than the internal diode max voltage rating. All felt the voltage would rise
and start shorting diodes in well under 1/10 of a second and the resulting
voltage would then be clamped at a relative low value which is determined by
the specific alternator design and what diode(s) shorted).
Considering how simple it is to use an alternator that is easy to convert or
needs no conversion (to an external regulator) I feel there is no reason not
to do it. As such alternators are available in similar weight,size, and amp
ratings there need not be a weight penalty.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: runaway, self regulated alternators
>
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Sa <carlosfsa(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip - Computer games joystick?! |
Hello, all
Why not use one of those cool joysticks used for computer games? A whole bunch
of
switches on them, pre-wired and all, available at the nearest computer store.
They are probably very sturdy, to withstand the many hours of game-playing in the
hands of teenagers...
Did anyone consider one of those?
Carlos
--- Ed Holyoke wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted
by: Ed Holyoke
>
> On the other hand, I recently e-mailed some questions and got a response
> from JD the next day. I've got one of these grips and it is a good
> product. The switches are all wired up with a nice cable. It makes for a
> very clean installation. I went with the momentary switch on both up and
> down for simplicity and so that I wouldn't forget and leave it running.
> I don't think it would be that hard to solder in a new switch if I hate
> it that way. I haven't flown it so I'll have to wait and see if I made
> the right choice.
>
> If you don't use the momentary, and you don't like the idea of a limit
> switch, you could put an indicator light on the panel to remind you to
> turn it off when you're done with the go around.
>
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | It mustn't continue |
AND THE WINNER IS:
For best response to a post. RSwanson (most constructive)
Runners-up:
Jim Jewell, James Freeman - (least offensive retort)
Harry Crosby, LarryRobertHelming - (best spellers)
Passing Grade:
Keith - 67%, for 'your' & 'you're', but not 'yore'
Helming - 67%, for 'their' & 'there', but not 'they're'.
It was in 1507 that Martin Waldseemuller (or his collaborator, Matthias
Ringman) in their book, "Cosmographiae introductio" suggested that Columbus'
new continent be named after Americus Vesputius [Latin book], since both
Europa and Asia were named for women. However by 1527, Franciscus Monarchus
produced the first known map of the new continents and "America" appears in
northern Brazil.
Therefore, it must be that the cousins from Britain are actually
in conflict with the grammar of Portugal, and not as we note here, those of
south-central North America.
Next semester will be 'dampening vs. damping'.
Ferg
PS: apologies to Matt Dralle for Off Topic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Infinity Stick Grip - Computer games |
joystick?!
The best ones, if you go that route, are the Thrustmaster B8 style. In
fact, JD's early sticks were injected urethane foam surplus Thrustmasters
(I know, I bought a dozen of them).
The Thrustmaster "Top Gun" stick is slightly smaller - the same size at
JD's - the "Fighter X" is a full size B8. Neither one is made anymore, but
you can get them on EBay for about $20. The later Top Guns and all the
Fighter Xs have soft neoprene inserts where the checkering is, which is
also where your hand contacts the stick.
The coolie hat switch they use is the same one JD uses, but the pushbuttons
are really too light for aircraft use. It's best to drill them out and
replace them.
>
>Hello, all
>
>Why not use one of those cool joysticks used for computer games? A whole
>bunch of
>switches on them, pre-wired and all, available at the nearest computer store.
>
>They are probably very sturdy, to withstand the many hours of game-playing
>in the
>hands of teenagers...
>
>Did anyone consider one of those?
>
>Carlos
>
>
> --- Ed Holyoke wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List
> message posted
>by: Ed Holyoke
> >
> > On the other hand, I recently e-mailed some questions and got a response
> > from JD the next day. I've got one of these grips and it is a good
> > product. The switches are all wired up with a nice cable. It makes for a
> > very clean installation. I went with the momentary switch on both up and
> > down for simplicity and so that I wouldn't forget and leave it running.
> > I don't think it would be that hard to solder in a new switch if I hate
> > it that way. I haven't flown it so I'll have to wait and see if I made
> > the right choice.
> >
> > If you don't use the momentary, and you don't like the idea of a limit
> > switch, you could put an indicator light on the panel to remind you to
> > turn it off when you're done with the go around.
> >
>
>Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
with bob's wiring diagram for the main buss and e-buss & internal regular Z-xx
previously labeled.
there is a master switch with Off/Bat/Alt. - positions.
there is then an E-Buss switch
under normal proceedures you would get in the airplane, turn the master to Alternator
- then start up. The E-Buss gets powered from a diode off the main buss
- so would you normally leave the E-Buss switch off - untill you had a situation
where you had an alternator failure - then you would flip the master switch
to Bat. power and turn on the E-Buss. Is that correct?
Also, does the OVM module CAUSE the Alternator field to shut off - or does it just
allow some of the voltage to go to ground in order to keep the voltage from
spiking? Is it the case that you still need to turn the master to Bat or OFF
- to get the alternator contactor to shut off?
thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | E-Buss - switched vs. non-switched items |
I read somewhere that all items run off the E-Buss should have a switch on them
- I notice the diagrams call for a turn coordinator to run off the e-buss - there
is no switcfh on that. also I have an electric attitude indicator -so I
assume that would run off the e-buss as well? are both of these items ok if they
don't have an on/off switch on them?
if these are ok -how about other low powered items - like instrument lights?
thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Computer games joystick?! |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
Carlos Hi!
Someone here in UK has done this very well. Just had to adapt from
about 3/4" to 1"+ to fit Joystick.
The Aircraft is a very well equipped Europa owned by a X777 Pilot for
BA.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
mailto://gnholland(at)onetel.com
+44 7808 402404
Europa XS 384
G-FIZY
The greatest enjoyment from existence is living dangerously....
Friedrich Nietzsche
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Computer games joystick?! |
Hi Carlos,
CH products Manufactures game controls etc. go to
http://www.chproducts.com/retail/hi_res_images.html
They have a new product for homebuilt aircraft builders that looks to be
just what you describe. They are sending information in the mail on request
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Infinity Stick Grip - Computer games
joystick?!
>
> Hello, all
>
> Why not use one of those cool joysticks used for computer games? A whole
bunch of
> switches on them, pre-wired and all, available at the nearest computer
store.
>
> They are probably very sturdy, to withstand the many hours of game-playing
in the
> hands of teenagers...
>
> Did anyone consider one of those?
>
> Carlos
>
>
> --- Ed Holyoke wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List
message posted
> by: Ed Holyoke
> >
> > On the other hand, I recently e-mailed some questions and got a response
> > from JD the next day. I've got one of these grips and it is a good
> > product. The switches are all wired up with a nice cable. It makes for a
> > very clean installation. I went with the momentary switch on both up and
> > down for simplicity and so that I wouldn't forget and leave it running.
> > I don't think it would be that hard to solder in a new switch if I hate
> > it that way. I haven't flown it so I'll have to wait and see if I made
> > the right choice.
> >
> > If you don't use the momentary, and you don't like the idea of a limit
> > switch, you could put an indicator light on the panel to remind you to
> > turn it off when you're done with the go around.
> >
>
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim V. Wickert" <JimW_btg(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Stick Grip - Flap Switch. |
Hi Julia,
Yes I do. CH Products. They supply both commercial joy sticks for
Industrial applications this is where I came accross them and they provide
top qulity control sticks for the game industry.
They now have a control stick for the Home built aircraft market, with
picturers of an installation in both a Lancair and RV.
The stick I am going to use is one found in thier retail Gameport section
not the USB section of products. They have two sticks that I am now
looking into. The Game Stick 3D Right or Left hand with 4 single press
buttons and a 4 way hat switch they have them on special now for $39.95
remove the base and the rest is ready to use. This the unit they have
installed in the Home built pictures
They also have the CH Flight stick that has a few less buttons and again
right or left hand also $39.95. I have seen these units and they are good
quality.
CH Products
970 Park Center Dr.
Vista, CA 92083
760-598-2518
www.chproducts.com
Go to Retail section
Good luck, happy building
Jim Wickert
Vision #159
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rino <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Microair radio |
Thanks Lonnie,
I got in touch with www.xcom760.com
Lonnie Benson wrote:
> Rino,
>
> Just incase you never received an answer to your question, try
> www.xcom760.com. or www.becker-avionics.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
Julia,
In case of alternator failure, you would turn the e-bus on and then turn
the master off to save the amp or so that the contactor draws. Depending
on how much fuel you've got left, you might even want to turn off some
of the stuff on the e-bus to make sure you've got enough battery left
for arrival.
If the alternator overvolts, the OVM causes the field breaker to blow
shutting down the alternator. You should then have a blinking light to
warn you of low voltage and follow procedure above. I think that's how
it works anyway.
Ed Holyoke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Julia
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:13 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-Buss Switch
>
>
>
> with bob's wiring diagram for the main buss and e-buss & internal
regular
> Z-xx previously labeled.
>
> there is a master switch with Off/Bat/Alt. - positions.
>
> there is then an E-Buss switch
>
> under normal proceedures you would get in the airplane, turn the
master to
> Alternator - then start up. The E-Buss gets powered from a diode off
the
> main buss - so would you normally leave the E-Buss switch off - untill
you
> had a situation where you had an alternator failure - then you would
flip
> the master switch to Bat. power and turn on the E-Buss. Is that
correct?
>
> Also, does the OVM module CAUSE the Alternator field to shut off - or
does
> it just allow some of the voltage to go to ground in order to keep the
> voltage from spiking? Is it the case that you still need to turn the
> master to Bat or OFF - to get the alternator contactor to shut off?
>
> thanks
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | GPS antenna location |
is it ok to mount the GPS antenna in a wing tip? I was going to mount it under
the engine cowl - but the wing tip is relatively empty when compared with under
the engine cowl. Also if I had to find another reason, perhhaps it might
be argued that if you flew upside down - the reception would be just as good
with the wing tip location - whereas it you mounted it under the engine cowl
and flew upside down, you'd have the engine blocking the GPS signal?
What arguements are there for NOT mounting it in the wing tip? Do strobe signals
interfere with GPS at all?
I"m using a wing tip COMM antenna in one tip and thought I'd put the GPS in the
other tip. My transponder antenna is underneath the seats and my ELT antenna
is in the tail - I think that's all the antennas I need.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Buss Switch |
>
>
>with bob's wiring diagram for the main buss and e-buss & internal
>regular Z-xx previously labeled.
>
>there is a master switch with Off/Bat/Alt. - positions.
>
>there is then an E-Buss switch
>
>under normal proceedures you would get in the airplane, turn the
>master to Alternator - then start up. The E-Buss gets powered from
>a diode off the main buss - so would you normally leave the E-Buss
>switch off - untill you had a situation where you had an alternator
>failure - then you would flip the master switch to Bat. power and
>turn on the E-Buss. Is that correct?
1. I would do a test of the E-Buss switch prior to any flight where
this function was important - i.e. an night or IFR flight, assuming
your engine is not electrically dependent. If your engine is
electrically dependent I would recommend doing a test of the E-Buss
switch prior to every flight. The test would basically be: prior to
selecting the master switch to ON, select the E-Buss switch to ON and
confirm that there is power to the E-Bus. Then select the master
switch to ON, and the E-Buss switch to OFF. Once you are close to
the airport where you will land, you could power everything else back
up if desired by selecting the master to Bat. power.
2. If you had an alternator failure, you would select the E-Buss
switch to ON, then select the master switch to OFF. Now your battery
is only powering the E-Buss loads, to maximize the electrical
endurance. If you left the master to the Bat power position as you
suggest the battery is powering everything, and it will run down
quicker. This is OK if you are close to the airport where you will
land, but you might run the battery to exhaustion otherwise.
>Also, does the OVM module CAUSE the Alternator field to shut off -
>or does it just allow some of the voltage to go to ground in order
>to keep the voltage from spiking? Is it the case that you still
>need to turn the master to Bat or OFF - to get the alternator
>contactor to shut off?
If you have an externally regulated alternator, the OVM shorts out
the line to alternator field, causing the field CB to pop. This
kills the alternator. If you have an internally regulated
alternator, the OVM has to be wired to open a relay in the alternator
output, as there is no access to the field power.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
List,
I have my Audio Panel PS-4000 wiring harness in place but they didn't
make up separate wires for the Push to Talk Buttons?
One wire I know is the ground but wouldn't the other wire go to the
"Key Wire" on the Microphone jack that the headset plugs into? Thanks for any
help as the wiring is just about done.
Tom in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | pre-made wiring harnesses |
in case anyone is not interested in doing alot of wiring - check out www.approach-systems.com
- they made my harness to go from Transponder to altitude encoder
and one from intercom system to COMM radio and wow did that save alot of time.
I'm impressed. I never have liked working with those small computer pins.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ageless Wings" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | It mustn't continue |
Keith...
>>By the way...... while we are waaaaaaayyyy off topic......
Is it "nuclear" or "nucular"? <<
Atomic....
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pre-made wiring harnesses |
You might also want to check into Stark Avionics. John Stark quoted me the
absolute lowest prices on all of my avionics (UPSAT stuff), and his prices
for wiring harnesses are incredibly inexpensive. Why bother with a "black
box" if you don't need to...
http://www.mindspring.com/~jts7/index.htm
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (canopy)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julia" <wings97302(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: pre-made wiring harnesses
>
>
> in case anyone is not interested in doing alot of wiring - check out
www.approach-systems.com - they made my harness to go from Transponder to
altitude encoder and one from intercom system to COMM radio and wow did that
save alot of time. I'm impressed. I never have liked working with those
small computer pins.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | alternator failure modes |
<>
Very interesting discussion from Paul. Just add a couple of points: First,
there are some effects which limit the voltage capability of the alternator.
The iron in both the field and the stator will saturate at currents not much
above the rated currents. Therefore, even thought field current rises with
alternator output the flux does not. There also is the effect of the
internal capacitance of the stator windings that limit the output, but this
might be a small effect. Regardless, as Paul stated, if the output load is
removed the stator voltage will rise until limited by something. If the
rectifier diodes don't fail the voltage will stabilize at the value limited
by the internal resistance/saturation/inductance/capacitance of the
alternator. In that case the field winding will likely fail. This is
called a "load dump" in the automotive world, but we usually assume it is
short lived, generally 10's of milliseconds (just as an aside, for marine
usage we would assume that the operator would forget to tighten the battery
terminal and the battery connection would repetitively open, causing
frequent and repetitive load dumps that would have to be tolerated by the
alternator and all electrical components).
I think what Paul is suggesting is that it is reasonably probable that at
least one diode of one stator phase will short, loading the other phases and
pulling down the output voltage enough that the field winding will no longer
fuse. I would suggest that it would be very unlikely that 2 phases will
short as the current output from the remaining phase would be insufficient
to cause a problem. With 2 phases running the output would be 2/3 the
rated output, or 40 amps for a 60 amp alternator. Would that be enough to
cause a fire? Remember, a simple overheat condition is not a concern, only
a safety-of-flight fire. When I first heard of the "meltdown" under
discussion I visualized fire and melted aluminum, but apparently it was an
internal-to-the-alternator overheat condition, not a safety-related fire.
Paul almost had me convinced with his perceptive argument, but now I'm
wavering. My plan was to use a dual battery/dual alternator system with
equally sized internally-regulated alternators of modest capacity, maybe 35
or 40 amps each. The reason was wiring simplicity and reduced weight. I'm
assuming that the lower current capability of the alternators means more
benign failure modes - a weak assumption, I'll readily admit.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Buss - switched vs. non-switched items |
>
>
>I read somewhere that all items run off the E-Buss should have a switch on
>them - I notice the diagrams call for a turn coordinator to run off the
>e-buss - there is no switcfh on that. also I have an electric attitude
>indicator -so I assume that would run off the e-buss as well? are both of
>these items ok if they don't have an on/off switch on them?
>
>if these are ok -how about other low powered items - like instrument lights?
Items on the endurance bus should include the things you need
to get to airport-of-intended-destination-in-sight with the
alternator off line. If only these items are on the e-bus,
then there's no need for an independent ON/OFF switch. If you
have stowaway loads that are not always useful in an alternator
out condition, then having some way to shut them off
is decidedly useful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Infinity Stick Grip - Computer games joystick?! |
I am looking at computer joysticks too.
Best Buy has these beauties---http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/cyborgold.htm
These things must be light and very hard to break...good things for OBAM aircraft.
and you can buy a couple for spares just in case.
I'd put some quality switches inside and add reinforcement where required, but
they are close to perfect now.
I'd also mount the thing on an Amphenol connector to detach easily. Not only does
this make it easy to work on, but, properly arranged, would make a great anti-theft
device.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure modes |
Good comments. Generally agree with them all.
My intent was to keep the real world electronic calcs out of the discussion
to make it more informative to the general list readers. I was attempting to
point out an alternator failure not addressed by the "B" lead contactor.
The peak voltage produced by one alternator (unfailed) that I tested was
still working fine at over 200V when I stopped the test. I have been told
some alternators have diodes with only 200V typical rating. In any event
given the various alternator designs its possible to get very hot and what
happens then is unique to the specific installation and surrounding
components. The other engineers were not sure how many diodes could fail
(they were all failed in the one unit but that could have been a result of
the extreme heat). We stopped wondering as it was clear that there were too
many variables to worry about when the point was to see if the assumption of
a unloaded failed regulator was a condition of concern. Since we concluded
it was, the simple and clear solution was to be sure the field was
disconnected and an external regulator was a simple fix. The next task was
to find an lightweight inexpensive alternator from the auto market for
experimental aircraft. Having found one I quit looking.
After all why have any risk if there is a simple solution to eliminate it.
Perhaps the alternator "you" find with an internal regulator will fail
safely and perhaps not. How does anyone know (perhaps only with a test
program). With one real world example in hand (some 15 years ago) and expert
analysis that concluded the most likely reason for the final burn up was as
I have suggested, I decided why take even a very small risk given the simple
alternative.
Remember the alternator may be very hot to start with and all electronic
components running close to their max temperature. The active components
including the diodes and regulator electronics are typically rated at much
lower temperatures than the wiring/insulation. Another reason to use an
externally mounted regulator independent to any decision about my point. I
have seen far too many alternators mounted in experimental aircraft where
the internal or external alternator cooling fan was reverse to the airflow.
The needed analysis is complex specific alternator unique and unneeded if
one decided to simply avoid the design. In the case of an electrically
dependent aircraft engine I feel there is a need to avoid any known or
suspected risk if there is a reasonable solution. Also an external regulator
typically is lighter than the "B" lead contactor so there is an additional
weight saving.
In any event the a regulator failure that results in an over voltage
condition is rare and its likely the result self contained.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator failure modes
>
> < to
> the field and cutting the power to the field (regulator) is simple and
does
> the job in all cases.
>
> Considering how simple it is to use an alternator that is easy to convert
or
> needs no conversion (to an external regulator) I feel there is no reason
not
> to do it. As such alternators are available in similar weight,size, and
amp
> ratings there need not be a weight penalty.
>
> Paul>>
>
> Very interesting discussion from Paul. Just add a couple of points:
First,
> there are some effects which limit the voltage capability of the
alternator.
> The iron in both the field and the stator will saturate at currents not
much
> above the rated currents. Therefore, even thought field current rises
with
> alternator output the flux does not. There also is the effect of the
> internal capacitance of the stator windings that limit the output, but
this
> might be a small effect. Regardless, as Paul stated, if the output load
is
> removed the stator voltage will rise until limited by something. If the
> rectifier diodes don't fail the voltage will stabilize at the value
limited
> by the internal resistance/saturation/inductance/capacitance of the
> alternator. In that case the field winding will likely fail. This is
> called a "load dump" in the automotive world, but we usually assume it is
> short lived, generally 10's of milliseconds (just as an aside, for marine
> usage we would assume that the operator would forget to tighten the
battery
> terminal and the battery connection would repetitively open, causing
> frequent and repetitive load dumps that would have to be tolerated by the
> alternator and all electrical components).
>
> I think what Paul is suggesting is that it is reasonably probable that at
> least one diode of one stator phase will short, loading the other phases
and
> pulling down the output voltage enough that the field winding will no
longer
> fuse. I would suggest that it would be very unlikely that 2 phases will
> short as the current output from the remaining phase would be insufficient
> to cause a problem. With 2 phases running the output would be 2/3 the
> rated output, or 40 amps for a 60 amp alternator. Would that be enough to
> cause a fire? Remember, a simple overheat condition is not a concern,
only
> a safety-of-flight fire. When I first heard of the "meltdown" under
> discussion I visualized fire and melted aluminum, but apparently it was an
> internal-to-the-alternator overheat condition, not a safety-related fire.
>
> Paul almost had me convinced with his perceptive argument, but now I'm
> wavering. My plan was to use a dual battery/dual alternator system with
> equally sized internally-regulated alternators of modest capacity, maybe
35
> or 40 amps each. The reason was wiring simplicity and reduced weight.
I'm
> assuming that the lower current capability of the alternators means more
> benign failure modes - a weak assumption, I'll readily admit.
>
> Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GPS antenna location |
>
>
>is it ok to mount the GPS antenna in a wing tip? I was going to mount it
>under the engine cowl - but the wing tip is relatively empty when compared
>with under the engine cowl. Also if I had to find another reason,
>perhhaps it might be argued that if you flew upside down - the reception
>would be just as good with the wing tip location - whereas it you mounted
>it under the engine cowl and flew upside down, you'd have the engine
>blocking the GPS signal?
>What arguements are there for NOT mounting it in the wing tip?
Longer coax cable (weakens signal . . . may not be an issue
depending on your antenna (amplified or passive).
> Do strobe signals interfere with GPS at all?
no.
>I"m using a wing tip COMM antenna in one tip and thought I'd put the GPS
>in the other tip. My transponder antenna is underneath the seats and my
>ELT antenna is in the tail - I think that's all the antennas I need.
it ought to work.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Switch |
>
>
>with bob's wiring diagram for the main buss and e-buss & internal regular
>Z-xx previously labeled.
>
>there is a master switch with Off/Bat/Alt. - positions.
>
>there is then an E-Buss switch
>
>under normal proceedures you would get in the airplane, turn the master to
>Alternator - then start up. The E-Buss gets powered from a diode off the
>main buss - so would you normally leave the E-Buss switch off - untill you
>had a situation where you had an alternator failure - then you would flip
>the master switch to Bat. power and turn on the E-Buss. Is that correct?
My checklists call for turning the e-bus switch on first, get
atis, clearance delivery, and note that nothing on the main
bus becomes active. Turn e-bus switch off, conduct normal
startup. E-bus switch stays off during normal operations.
>
>
>Also, does the OVM module CAUSE the Alternator field to shut off - or does
>it just allow some of the voltage to go to ground in order to keep the
>voltage from spiking? Is it the case that you still need to turn the
>master to Bat or OFF - to get the alternator contactor to shut off?
ov module properly installed shuts down the alternator
system and and/or opens contactor with no attention needed
by the pilot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure modes |
Okay I need some clarification. I am finding it very difficult to find a
40A alternator that is externally regulated for a decent price that I know
will fit my plane. I don't want to take an alternator apart and I don't
want to build my own brackets. Anyway I have talked myself into getting an
internally regulated alternator and putting the B lead contactor in with an
OVM like Bob discusses. I don't have a problem with a failed alternator
causing the OVM to trip and then the alternator self-distructing as long as
it doesn't catch fire.
My questions is... If the contactor opens while the alternator is online,
will that cause the alternator to leak all of its smoke out? If that is the
case then would somebody steer me toward a 40 Amp externally regulated
alternator that doesn't cost more than $400.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | alternator + fire? |
From a previous post.
" don't have a problem with a failed alternator causing the OVM to trip and
then the alternator self-distructing as long asit doesn't catch fire."
I know quite a bit aobut cars and have rebuilt numerous Alt's years ago. I
have never ran across and Alt that has caught fire. This is really rare right?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | alternator failure modes |
See:
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?2X35821
8
scroll down to L-40 boss mount. Bob has said that these are the best
available.
Ed Holyoke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Birkelbach
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 9:19 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator failure modes
>
>
>
> Okay I need some clarification. I am finding it very difficult to
find a
> 40A alternator that is externally regulated for a decent price that I
know
> will fit my plane. I don't want to take an alternator apart and I
don't
> want to build my own brackets. Anyway I have talked myself into
getting
> an
> internally regulated alternator and putting the B lead contactor in
with
> an
> OVM like Bob discusses. I don't have a problem with a failed
alternator
> causing the OVM to trip and then the alternator self-distructing as
long
> as
> it doesn't catch fire.
>
> My questions is... If the contactor opens while the alternator is
online,
> will that cause the alternator to leak all of its smoke out? If that
is
> the
> case then would somebody steer me toward a 40 Amp externally regulated
> alternator that doesn't cost more than $400.
>
> Godspeed,
>
> Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
> http://www.myrv7.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Call the ball ?? |
| From: | "David Glauser" <david.glauser(at)xpsystems.com> |
I've got it even better. I get the entire garage. It was a deal - I wanted the
house with the three-car garage. She wanted the smaller house with the two-car
garage on a really nice lot. She said if I went for the smaller house I could
have the whole garage. Not being a fool, I accepted.
dg
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Babb [mailto:tonybabb(at)alejandra.net]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Call the ball ??
Janelle,
You're a saint and wonderful role model for the spouses of all homebuilders.
Does your husband realize he's the envy of most of the rest of us?
----- Original Message -----
From: "nhulin" <nhulin(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Call the ball ??
>
> Share? Share the garage? Dodge Caravan, pregnant, heavy snow all winter.
> Share they say, Hah.
>
>From: Janelle, wife of Neil.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure modes |
| From: | Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)attbi.com> |
>
>
> Okay I need some clarification. I am finding it very difficult to find a
> 40A alternator that is externally regulated for a decent price that I know
> will fit my plane. I don't want to take an alternator apart and I don't
> want to build my own brackets. Anyway I have talked myself into getting an
> internally regulated alternator and putting the B lead contactor in with an
> OVM like Bob discusses. I don't have a problem with a failed alternator
> causing the OVM to trip and then the alternator self-distructing as long as
> it doesn't catch fire.
>
> My questions is... If the contactor opens while the alternator is online,
> will that cause the alternator to leak all of its smoke out? If that is the
> case then would somebody steer me toward a 40 Amp externally regulated
> alternator that doesn't cost more than $400.
>
> Godspeed,
>
> Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
> RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
> http://www.myrv7.com
>
> .
>
I have flight checked this condition several times with my internally
regulated alternator, a 40A Denso from Niagra with all brackets etc, for
$225.
I have a 35A circuit breaker switch in line with the B lead to the main bus.
When opened in flight, the alternator loses no smoke. Same with turning off
the regulator power. I have my OV protection hooked up to that fellow, but
probably should also have the contactor that Bob recommends. I say probably
because, I am from Missouri, and haven=B9t been shown the failure mode
wherein the field gets goosed by some internal short from the B.
P. S. Please don=B9t confuse me with any one who is willing to debate this
sort of thing.
I am delighted with the value of the niagra product, and its functino and
reliability has been great. If I were startign over however, I would have
to very carefully consider the B&C which is a giant step up from the =B3out
of the box=B2 Denso.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Motor Glider System Questions |
>Bob,
>I have entered a subscription to matronics as you suggest. I hope I will be
>able navigate the site - an not be plaged by attempts to access my computer
>system as you lamented on your site.
. . . not sure what your concerns are . . . there are no
potential risks to your computer to browse the matronics archives
or subscribe to any of their supported lists . . .
>I was able to print Z-13 - This was the schematic that I was first drawn to.
>The nature of a motorglider flight is motored flight then a transition to
>soaring flight - engine off - and the subsequent return for powered flight
>for a return home. This poses some interesting battery power conservation
>situations. Two batteries has been the main focus. Primarily concern is
>the ability to insure adequate power for engine restart. Engine restart is
>the #2 absolute requirement after the structural integrity of the airframe.
>A send alternator/dynamo has not been considered but is now on the table.
What size engine are we talking about? Do you have any current
draw values for the starter?
>My immediate need is info about determining the length to use in determining
>voltage drop. I could not find a clear explanation in 43.13. The
>explanation from an on line EAA tech differed from what I believe was on one
>of your web articles. I interpret what you said is that the wire length to
>use is that from the source , circuit breaker or buss connection, to the
>consuming device plus the wire length to a ground connection. 43.13 seems
>to indicate that, in an aluminum structure, the resistance drop from the
>ground connection to the battery ground to airframe is negligable.
Unless you're building a large composite aircraft or a huge
aluminum airplane, voltage drops are not a driving consideration
for wire size. Table 11-9 in AC43-13 or Figure 8-3 of the
'Connection can be consulted for recommended wires at the various
current ratings. Fuses/breakers should be the same size or
smaller than the recommended continuous current level.
>Another question is the sizing of the main power feed from the battery (aft
>baggage compartment) to the the main buss, estimated at 16 feet in my case,
>and the power feed to the starter - another 8 feet from the main power buss
>to starter relay and on to the starter. I am wondering about installing a
>ground conductor from the starter back to the additional engine ground
>connection on the firewall and possibly going onto the main ground buss at
>the instrument panel. Are we now at 32 feet for voltage drop? What about
>extending the ground wire another 16 feet to the battery(ies)?
With the battery that far from the engine, make all cranking
circuit wires at least 2AWG. Welding cable will work fine.
Run braided number from crankcase to firewall ground stud,
bring battery (-) to this same stud via 2AWG wire. Let's
talk some more about how this airplane is used . . . you
may want to consider a dual battery installation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Graham <beeb(at)teleport.com> |
I have a Thrustmaster "Fighter X" and a real stick grip that was referred to
(see below) as a "B8". The information about the (my) real stick grip is:
GRIP ASSEMBLY,CONT,ACFT,TYPE MC-2 USAF 56C3002 and more #s. The mfg. mark
is a "G" in arrow head shaped shield. Their part number is 58765. It is
identical to the "Fighter X". in every way except weight and switch force.
It has a new Amphenol mil spec connector and stick adapter for a 1.250" o.d.
and 1.0" i.d. stick tube. This stick grip was given me for bringing home a
disabled (Dual electrical failure) USAF T-38, or was it the only good part
left over, whatever. All these years I assumed that it was the stick grip
from a T-38/F-5 and maybe some other mil spec flying machines. Can anyone
give me the facts on what I have. Is it a valuable antique like me?
As for the "Fighter X", do I need driver software to get it to function
in the Win or Mac worlds? I picked it up cause it looked a lot like
something I used to hold in my right hand a lot. Now if I could find a mil
throttle knob with a speed board switch. Thanks in advanced for any
information.
GG RV-4FB
bottom gun
----------------------
The best ones, if you go that route, are the Thrustmaster B8 style. In
fact, JD's early sticks were injected urethane foam surplus Thrustmasters
(I know, I bought a dozen of them).
The Thrustmaster "Top Gun" stick is slightly smaller - the same size at
JD's - the "Fighter X" is a full size B8. Neither one is made anymore, but
you can get them on EBay for about $20. The later Top Guns and all the
Fighter Xs have soft neoprene inserts where the checkering is, which is
also where your hand contacts the stick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Infinity Grip Selection 2 Rights - or 1 Right and 1 |
Left????
I'm ordering the Infinity grips -now i'm told I should consider a left and right
I was going to order two right grips - since i'm right handed and most people are
right handed.
what do you all recommend? if I sit in the left seat of my RV7A - the throttle
is in the center - would it be bad to hold the stick with my right hand and run
the throttle with my left???
The infinity stick conforms to your hand -so you order a left or right hand style
- it's not just a round tube.
thanks
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Grip Selection 2 Rights - or 1 |
Right and 1 Left????
>
>
>I'm ordering the Infinity grips -now i'm told I should consider a
>left and right
>
>I was going to order two right grips - since i'm right handed and
>most people are right handed.
>
>what do you all recommend? if I sit in the left seat of my RV7A -
>the throttle is in the center - would it be bad to hold the stick
>with my right hand and run the throttle with my left???
>
>The infinity stick conforms to your hand -so you order a left or
>right hand style - it's not just a round tube.
>
>thanks
>
You are definitely going to want to hold the throttle in the hand
that is on the same side the throttle is. It would not be
comfortable to try to cross your left arm across your body to hold
the throttle. So, that means you would want a left and right grip
for a side-by-side RV, unless you are going to put in a throttle
quadrant on the left side of the cockpit.
In my opinion, people worry way too much about whether they will be
able to fly the aircraft with the "wrong" hand. Sure, it may feel a
bit strange for the first few minutes. But by the end of the first
flight using your "wrong" hand you'll have forgotten which hand you
are using. Just be sure to get enough dual using that hand before
your first flight in the RV.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Grip Selection 2 Rights - or 1 Right and |
1 Left????
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
If you are going to the effort and expense of having a custom stick with
lots of bells and whistles, with the intent of using them during crucial
times of flight, crossing hands doesn't make sense.
Picture this: Its a hazy, bumpy day and you are on wide left downwind to a
busy airport, talking to the approach controller. He tells you to follow
another
small experimental which is on an extended right base to the same runway
and in
the same breath he hands you off to the tower. You need to switch
frequencies,
continue to fly the airplane through the turbulence, and keep your head
outside
the cockpit in order to see the airplane you were instructed to follow.
At the same
time, you are trying to milk off a little more throttle in order to stay
behind said
traffic.
You can have the 'wrong' hand on the stick, and resort to hitting the
flipflop on
the panel instead of the one on the stick (which you spent extra on). Or,
you
can twist your left hand across your body to adjust the throttle (which your
hand should really stray from for long periods).
I think I would choose to fly most of the time with my left hand on the
stick,
if there's only one throttle in the airplane. That's what you do in a
plane with
a yolk, and it isn't a problem there. Otherwise, get a second throttle
installed
onto the left edge of the panel, or plan to fly from the right seat.
Crossing
over on a custom airplane seems silly. Especially on one that was supposed
to be fun to fly.
Regards,
Matt (who has elevator trim on the wrong side and doesn't like it) Prather-
N34RD
>
>
> I'm ordering the Infinity grips -now i'm told I should consider a left
> and right
>
> I was going to order two right grips - since i'm right handed and most
> people are right handed.
>
> what do you all recommend? if I sit in the left seat of my RV7A - the
> throttle is in the center - would it be bad to hold the stick with my
> right hand and run the throttle with my left???
>
> The infinity stick conforms to your hand -so you order a left or right
> hand style - it's not just a round tube.
>
> thanks
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
List, I Haven't gotten any help on this problem yet? Has anybody faced
this one? No help in the archives
Thanks, Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
>
> List,
> I have my Audio Panel PS-4000 wiring harness in place but they
didn't make up separate wires for the Push to Talk Buttons?
> One wire I know is the ground but wouldn't the other wire go
to the "Key Wire" on the Microphone jack that the headset plugs into?
Thanks for any help as the wiring is just about done.
>
Tom in Ohio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote:
>
>List, I Haven't gotten any help on this problem yet? Has anybody faced
>this one? No help in the archives
>
>Thanks, Tom in Ohio
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>List,
>> I have my Audio Panel PS-4000 wiring harness in place but they
>>
>>
>didn't make up separate wires for the Push to Talk Buttons?
>
>
>> One wire I know is the ground but wouldn't the other wire go
>>
>>
>to the "Key Wire" on the Microphone jack that the headset plugs into?
>Thanks for any help as the wiring is just about done.
>
>
>Tom in Ohio
>
Hi Tom,
Do you mean that the harness has the key wire from the intercom to the
radio but not from the mic jack to the intercom?
The PTT wire should leave the 'tip' terminal of the mic jack and go to
the 'PTT' or 'key' jack on the intercom. There will likely be a PTT
terminal on the intecom for the pilot's mic & each passenger's mic. The
intercom should have another terminal for a PTT wire leaving the
intercom & going to the radio.
Does this help?
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
In a message dated 3/24/2003 8:00:49 PM Mountain Standard Time,
cengland(at)netdoor.com writes:
>
> >>List,
> >> I have my Audio Panel PS-4000 wiring harness in place but
> they
> >>
> >>
> >didn't make up separate wires for the Push to Talk Buttons?
> >
> >
> >> One wire I know is the ground but wouldn't the other wire go
> >>
> >>
> >to the "Key Wire" on the Microphone jack that the headset plugs into?
> >Thanks for any help as the wiring is just about done.
> >
> >
> >Tom in Ohio
>
Ya need to contact PS engineering with this problem. They believe no one but
themselves are smart enought to do anything. It is kinda hard to believe that
a PS harness in incorrect !!!!!!!! Oh, and by the way. Do not tell them this
intercom is is a homebuilt. Ben Haas. N801BH.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Infinity Grip Selection 2 Rights - or 1 Right and |
1 Left????
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
Hi!
With Throttle / Engine Controls to the right/centre then I would
strongly recommend using the Left Hand Grip. It may at first feel
uncomfortable to 'control' stick with Left Hand but it soon grows on
you. For me it felt strange at first after using a 'handlebar type Yoke
for a few years.With the Yoke the left hand 'control' felt OK (possible
angle of hand grip) but using a stick again did take a little while to
get relaxed with.
Crossing Arms/Hands to carry out control functions is not a good idea.
You could of course duplicate Throttle mechanism and go for additional
Left hand Throttle.
Regards
Gerry
On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 22:19 Europe/London, Julia wrote:
Gerry Holland
mailto://gnholland(at)onetel.com
+44 7808 402404
Europa XS 384
G-FIZY
The greatest enjoyment from existence is living dangerously....
Friedrich Nietzsche
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
Charlie, I have a "Key Wire" from the audio panel to the jack
but.........most harness I have seen also have a wire for the push to talk?
I believe I can jump off the jack key wire and accomplish the same thing??
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie & Tupper England" <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
>
> Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote:
>
> >
> >List, I Haven't gotten any help on this problem yet? Has anybody faced
> >this one? No help in the archives
> >
> >Thanks, Tom in Ohio
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
> >To:
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>List,
> >> I have my Audio Panel PS-4000 wiring harness in place but
they
> >>
> >>
> >didn't make up separate wires for the Push to Talk Buttons?
> >
> >
> >> One wire I know is the ground but wouldn't the other wire go
> >>
> >>
> >to the "Key Wire" on the Microphone jack that the headset plugs into?
> >Thanks for any help as the wiring is just about done.
> >
> >
> >Tom in Ohio
> >
> Hi Tom,
>
> Do you mean that the harness has the key wire from the intercom to the
> radio but not from the mic jack to the intercom?
>
> The PTT wire should leave the 'tip' terminal of the mic jack and go to
> the 'PTT' or 'key' jack on the intercom. There will likely be a PTT
> terminal on the intecom for the pilot's mic & each passenger's mic. The
> intercom should have another terminal for a PTT wire leaving the
> intercom & going to the radio.
>
> Does this help?
>
> Charlie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
>
>
>Charlie, I have a "Key Wire" from the audio panel to the jack
>but.........most harness I have seen also have a wire for the push to talk?
>I believe I can jump off the jack key wire and accomplish the same thing??
This is generally the case. PTT leads to microphones and
PTT leads to wheel/stick mounted buttons are one in the
same circuit. When only microphone jack PTT wiring is
depicted, then additional buttons are wired to the
>Tom in Ohio
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charlie & Tupper England" <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
>
>
>
> >
> > Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > >List, I Haven't gotten any help on this problem yet? Has anybody faced
> > >this one? No help in the archives
> > >
> > >Thanks, Tom in Ohio
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
> > >To:
> > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>List,
> > >> I have my Audio Panel PS-4000 wiring harness in place but
>they
> > >>
> > >>
> > >didn't make up separate wires for the Push to Talk Buttons?
> > >
> > >
> > >> One wire I know is the ground but wouldn't the other wire go
> > >>
> > >>
> > >to the "Key Wire" on the Microphone jack that the headset plugs into?
> > >Thanks for any help as the wiring is just about done.
> > >
> > >
> > >Tom in Ohio
> > >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > Do you mean that the harness has the key wire from the intercom to the
> > radio but not from the mic jack to the intercom?
> >
> > The PTT wire should leave the 'tip' terminal of the mic jack and go to
> > the 'PTT' or 'key' jack on the intercom. There will likely be a PTT
> > terminal on the intecom for the pilot's mic & each passenger's mic. The
> > intercom should have another terminal for a PTT wire leaving the
> > intercom & going to the radio.
> >
> > Does this help?
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
>
>
>Charlie, I have a "Key Wire" from the audio panel to the jack
>but.........most harness I have seen also have a wire for the push to talk?
>I believe I can jump off the jack key wire and accomplish the same thing??
This is generally the case. PTT leads to microphones and
PTT leads to wheel/stick mounted buttons are one in the
same circuit. When only microphone jack PTT wiring is
depicted, then additional buttons are wired to the
(. . . oops, too fast on the keys this morning, launched
the message before it was finished)
to the microphone jack. See page 11 of
http://216.55.140.222/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure modes |
>
>I have flight checked this condition several times with my internally
>regulated alternator, a 40A Denso from Niagra with all brackets etc, for
>$225.
>
>I have a 35A circuit breaker switch in line with the B lead to the main bus.
>When opened in flight, the alternator loses no smoke. Same with turning off
>the regulator power.
It would be interesting to get a voltmeter reading on the
alternator side of the breaker when it's opened in cruising
flight . . . although this DOES pose the risk of diode failure,
I believe it to be low. If you've already done this
without taking a voltage reading, then the risk is VERY small.
> I have my OV protection hooked up to that fellow, but
>probably should also have the contactor that Bob recommends. I say probably
>because, I am from Missouri, and haven=B9t been shown the failure mode
>wherein the field gets goosed by some internal short from the B.
I've seen this happen only once . . . about 35 years ago on
a Mooney. It was the by-product of poor mechanical design
in a low-cost alternator Mooney was trying . . . they abandoned
that device for this and other reasons. Given the manner in which
modern alternator are assembled mechanically, this is not
a concern.
>P. S. Please don=B9t confuse me with any one who is willing to debate this
>sort of thing.
>
>I am delighted with the value of the niagra product, and its functino and
>reliability has been great. If I were startign over however, I would have
>to very carefully consider the B&C which is a giant step up from the =B3out
>of the box=B2 Denso.
thank you for sharing this data. BTW, the 35 A breaker concerns
me . . . a 40A alternator will put out more than 40A when cold.
The 60A breaker on most single engine aircraft is DESIGNED to
nuisance trip when the stock, 60A alternator is feeling frisky.
You might keep an eye open for a 50A breaker to put in that
slot when it becomes convenient.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator + fire? |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> From a previous post.
>
>" don't have a problem with a failed alternator causing the OVM to trip and
>then the alternator self-distructing as long asit doesn't catch fire."
>
>I know quite a bit aobut cars and have rebuilt numerous Alt's years ago. I
>have never ran across and Alt that has caught fire. This is really rare right?
Alternators don't catch fire. They DO burn up windings
with liberation of some smelly smoke but they could
conceivably eject bits of sparking materials if a wire
burns open but they do not burst into sustained flames.
Given their locations on engines, the risk of propagating
burning debris onto other combustibles under the
cowl is zip . . . we take pains to NOT have combustibles
under the cowl . . . right?
Thousands of airplanes have come down in the history
of aviation due to failure of an alternator's ability
to power critical items for sustained flight in poorly
designed and/or maintained systems . . . I'm aware of
no accident where the alternator set the airplane
on fire. I'll ask the wreckage-wiennies at RAC
if they're ever seen it. I'm certain the answer is
going to be "no".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure modes |
Bin watchin' the discussion about failure modes of two-terminal
(internally regulated) alternators. I use Prestolite DOFxxxx
style alternators, which have four external terminals: Field1,
Field2, B (output), and case-ground.
As such, they are amenable to external control and shutdown.
Because they bring out both field slip-rings, you can even use
external high-side (Chrysler), or low-side (Ford, Motorola)
Voltage Regulators (VR). OverVoltage Protection (OVP) can be
accomplished by interupting the field current path either by
using a series switch, or a shunt crowbar which "blows" the
field breaker...
If I were to use one of the modern two-terminal marvels, I would
take it apart to disconnect the internal connection between the
B terminal (output) and the internal VR. If I wanted to use the
internal VR, I would bring the VR input wire out of the
alternator's case so that I could connect an external OVP and a
pullable Field Breaker between the B terminal and the internal
VR. Alternatively, I would disconnect both the input and output
from the internal VR, bring out the wire from the field
slip-ring, and revert to my own tried and true external VR and
OVP.
I made a modification similar to this to the internally
regulated alternator in my boat. The goal was to be able to use
an external "smart", remote-sensing VR, which is capable of
"equalizing" the boat batteries by artifically boosting the
charge voltage at my will. It was easy to disassemble the
alternator to isolate the internal regulator...
Mike Mladejovsky
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | starter brushes and burnt alternators |
The starter brush dimensions for a Delco-Remy model #1109657 are:
.500 x .750 x .250 in.
The part numbers are:
Standard RX52
Delco D754
Niehoff DR95E
I don't know if they are available. They fit industrial and Nash/American
starters up to 1951.
We also see many burned alternators from cars.
Mostly the the diode assy. and reg. in CS130 and CS144 series Delco. (late
1980's and up GM)
The B lead connector burns up on the Ford int. reg. alternators quite often,
including enough fire to melt other wiring that is close to the alt.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Motor Glider System Questions |
| From: | Gerald Giddens <geraldgiddens(at)cox.net> |
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:50:50 -0600
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Motor Glider System Questions
>
>
>
>
>> Bob,
>> I have entered a subscription to matronics as you suggest. I hope I will be
>> able navigate the site - an not be plaged by attempts to access my computer
>> system as you lamented on your site.
>
> . . . not sure what your concerns are . . . there are no
> potential risks to your computer to browse the matronics archives
> or subscribe to any of their supported lists . . .
Enough said
>
>
>> I was able to print Z-13 - This was the schematic that I was first drawn to.
>> The nature of a motorglider flight is motored flight then a transition to
>> soaring flight - engine off - and the subsequent return for powered flight
>> for a return home. This poses some interesting battery power conservation
>> situations. Two batteries has been the main focus. Primarily concern is
>> the ability to insure adequate power for engine restart. Engine restart is
>> the #2 absolute requirement after the structural integrity of the airframe.
>> A send alternator/dynamo has not been considered but is now on the table.
>
> What size engine are we talking about? Do you have any current
> draw values for the starter?
I have a Lycoming 150 HP(Low Compression 7:1) with a factory supplied Light
Weight Starter. Will get starter information info from data plate if
available - project is 1+ hour from home.
I have a constant speed propeller with unfeathering accumulator - Hope is to
be able to unfeather and "dive start", or at least assist battery start,
after motorless soaring flight. The 2 battery installation with manual
selection is planned. The only automatic function is the placement of a
diode to allow charging of the soaring battery when the engine alternator is
on line.
I have not planned to parallel the batteries, however another parallel
position could easily be added to the manual rotary battery selector switch.
The thought is that the "soaring" battery will power the instrumention/radio
etc buss to be used for soaring without accessing the engine start battery.
While the engine is running, the soaring battery will be charged - a diode
is planed to allow charging but not allow discharge of the soaring battery
while the engine is running.
What happens if one battery-(Soaring) is depleted and it is paralleled with
a charged (engine) battery? Have no experience but it does not sound like a
good idea to me. Also the hope is to be able to "dive start", if necessary
after motorless flight with assist from engine battery as available.
>
>> My immediate need is info about determining the length to use in determining
>> voltage drop. I could not find a clear explanation in 43.13. The
>> explanation from an on line EAA tech differed from what I believe was on one
>> of your web articles. I interpret what you said is that the wire length to
>> use is that from the source , circuit breaker or buss connection, to the
>> consuming device plus the wire length to a ground connection. 43.13 seems
>> to indicate that, in an aluminum structure, the resistance drop from the
>> ground connection to the battery ground to airframe is negligable.
>
> Unless you're building a large composite aircraft or a huge
> aluminum airplane, voltage drops are not a driving consideration
> for wire size. Table 11-9 in AC43-13 or Figure 8-3 of the
> 'Connection can be consulted for recommended wires at the various
> current ratings. Fuses/breakers should be the same size or
> smaller than the recommended continuous current level.
I am not sure if I am huge - it is a 2 place tandem, all aluminum airframe
with a high aspect wing - span 63 feet, fuselage spinner to tail cone 33
feet. Gross weight may approach 2400 pounds. Airframe is 95% complete.
Depending to ground wire and/or airframe bond answer (see below) some
circuit lengths may have a voltage drop problem - however the few circuits
involved could be solved by increasing wire size.
>
>
>> Another question is the sizing of the main power feed from the battery (aft
>> baggage compartment) to the the main buss, estimated at 16 feet in my case,
>> and the power feed to the starter - another 8 feet from the main power buss
>> to starter relay and on to the starter. I am wondering about installing a
>> ground conductor from the starter back to the additional engine ground
>> connection on the firewall and possibly going onto the main ground buss at
>> the instrument panel. Are we now at 32 feet for voltage drop? What about
>> extending the ground wire another 16 feet to the battery(ies)?
>
> With the battery that far from the engine, make all cranking
> circuit wires at least 2AWG. Welding cable will work fine.
> Run braided number from crankcase to firewall ground stud,
> bring battery (-) to this same stud via 2AWG wire. Let's
> talk some more about how this airplane is used . . . you
> may want to consider a dual battery installation.
Would it make sense to bond/jumper all consuming devices to the airframe in
addition to a ground wire from each device to a ground buss installed in the
#2 ground wire return to the battery? In addition to the firewall and front
cockpit ground buss, I planned to put a ground buss at the aft passenger
panel, in the #2 ground return to the battery location and connect grounds
from the aft PAX panel. Electrical items in the wing would ground in this
aft buss.
A 2 battery installation is definitely being installed.
The mission of the Motorglider is to provide a 2 place aircraft capable of
"light IFR" cross country powered flight allowing departure from a city
metropolis to an area, where soaring flight is practical, and return. The
aircraft is designed to have a glide ratio approaching 30:1. Fuel capacity
is 40 gallons, however that amount would not normally be carried. The
airframe is a conventional tail dragger with a mechanically retractable main
(2 wheel) landing gear. The outer 13 feet wing panels fold over the top and
rest on top of the inboard wing. There is adequate power to tow sailplanes,
if or when a tow hook is installed.
>
> Bob . . .
Thank You for your input
Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo Wirin' |
>Question 1: Is this an appropriate method or is there a more functional
>way of doing this?
Sounds like it ought to work.
>The only problem I see it that if you plugged a mono headset into the
>STEREO jack, it would short the channel wired to the ring to ground.
Even with DC blocking, some folks audio output stages might
not like the increased output load. The LM386 will be okay
I think. Of course, shorting one headset station's audio
output channel to ground would kill them all.
>Question 2: Is this a bad thing? Or is the radio protected somehow from
>having audio out grounded with no load? I'm going to attempt to "roll
>my own" audio isolation amp as shown in the Connection and there is a
>10uF capacitor in the audio out- is this critter there to protect the
>output from going to ground if it is shorted out?
Yes . . . that capacitor is probably undersized . . . don't
order parts until I get finished with the prototype. I've
got the board stuffed. Will try to get it powered up this
evening. . .
>I could placard the stereo jack against mono insertion, but this may
>make female passengers nervous!
I usually put a toggle switch next to the jack to flip
between stereo and monaural operation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starter brushes and burnt alternators |
>
>
>We also see many burned alternators from cars.
>Mostly the the diode assy. and reg. in CS130 and CS144 series Delco. (late
>1980's and up GM)
>The B lead connector burns up on the Ford int. reg. alternators quite often,
>including enough fire to melt other wiring that is close to the alt.
Are any of these off-shore manufactured alternators . . . i.e.
obviously ND, Mitsubishi, et. als?
What's been your experience/observation with ND alternators?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Motor Glider System Questions |
>
> > What size engine are we talking about? Do you have any current
> > draw values for the starter?
>
>I have a Lycoming 150 HP(Low Compression 7:1) with a factory supplied Light
>Weight Starter. Will get starter information info from data plate if
>available - project is 1+ hour from home.
>
>I have a constant speed propeller with unfeathering accumulator - Hope is to
>be able to unfeather and "dive start", or at least assist battery start,
>after motorless soaring flight. The 2 battery installation with manual
>selection is planned. The only automatic function is the placement of a
>diode to allow charging of the soaring battery when the engine alternator is
>on line.
No diode is necessary. A figure Z-11 with a second battery sounds
like the cleanest system . . . or Z-13 . . . it's really easy
to add the second alternator if you think you'd like to have
the second engine driven power source.
>I have not planned to parallel the batteries, however another parallel
>position could easily be added to the manual rotary battery selector switch.
>The thought is that the "soaring" battery will power the instrumention/radio
>etc buss to be used for soaring without accessing the engine start battery.
>While the engine is running, the soaring battery will be charged - a diode
>is planed to allow charging but not allow discharge of the soaring battery
>while the engine is running.
For Z-11/13 with two batteries, each battery has it's own
master switch. Both on for cranking and powered flight.
Turn e-bus switch ON and both battery masters off for
soaring flight . . . run soaring loads from e-bus (main
battery only).
>What happens if one battery-(Soaring) is depleted and it is paralleled with
>a charged (engine) battery? Have no experience but it does not sound like a
>good idea to me. Also the hope is to be able to "dive start", if necessary
>after motorless flight with assist from engine battery as available.
Doesn't hurt a thing. If main battery is depleted before
engine start (have you figured what your soaring loads are?)
it represents no big load on the cranking battery when
it comes time to start the engine. Just close both battery
master switches and hit the starter.
With dual, well maintained batteries, the likelihood of EVER
having to air-start the engine is zip (unless you've got a
less than the best lightweight starter . . . then the risk is
slightly greater than zip).
>I am not sure if I am huge - it is a 2 place tandem, all aluminum airframe
>with a high aspect wing - span 63 feet, fuselage spinner to tail cone 33
>feet. Gross weight may approach 2400 pounds. Airframe is 95% complete.
>Depending to ground wire and/or airframe bond answer (see below) some
>circuit lengths may have a voltage drop problem - however the few circuits
>involved could be solved by increasing wire size.
Run 2AWG wire from engine to batteries both ways . . . it will
be fine.
>Would it make sense to bond/jumper all consuming devices to the airframe in
>addition to a ground wire from each device to a ground buss installed in the
>#2 ground wire return to the battery? In addition to the firewall and front
>cockpit ground buss, I planned to put a ground buss at the aft passenger
>panel, in the #2 ground return to the battery location and connect grounds
>from the aft PAX panel. Electrical items in the wing would ground in this
>aft buss.
Airframes hold wings and engine together, wires crank
engines and run radios. Except for local grounding
of certain remote items like nav lights, strobe power
supply, landing/taxi lights and pitot heat, all other
stuff is best carried on its own wiring sized to the
task. 2AWG fat wires and a pair of 17 a.h. batteries is going
to give you excellent cranking performance and reliability.
>A 2 battery installation is definitely being installed.
>
>The mission of the Motorglider is to provide a 2 place aircraft capable of
>"light IFR" cross country powered flight allowing departure from a city
>metropolis to an area, where soaring flight is practical, and return. The
>aircraft is designed to have a glide ratio approaching 30:1. Fuel capacity
>is 40 gallons, however that amount would not normally be carried. The
>airframe is a conventional tail dragger with a mechanically retractable main
>(2 wheel) landing gear. The outer 13 feet wing panels fold over the top and
>rest on top of the inboard wing. There is adequate power to tow sailplanes,
>if or when a tow hook is installed.
Figure Z-11/13 with second battery (Z-30 but no aux battery bus)
will probably give you reliability and convenience far better
than anything else flying.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | starter considerations with EFIS/one and FADEC |
Bob and others:
Ive been thinking of solutions to some of the things=A0 we have been discussing
concerning voltage drop when starting FADEC engines. Also concern over
voltage spikes=A0 or low voltage problems with the EFIS/ONE=A0 during starting.=A0
Here is what I came up with.=A0 Using Z-14 DBDA=A0 Put all avionics one one=20bus.
For me I think this will be a avionics bus with quad feed.=A0 One from main=20bus
through diode and avionics master switch. Second from Alternate bus through
diode and avionics secondary master switch. Master switches are included in
case EFIS systems need isolated as Greg Ricktor seems to think they should
be. Third and fourth essential feeds from main batt buss and alternate batt
buss on one switch that would choose one or the other.=A0 Cross feed contactor
will not have starter switch included. Starter switch will be seperate. Here
is how I envision it working.=A0 During start up sequence the avionics bus can
be feed through the alternative electrical system. So the Efis/One is powered
up from that source. Also the FADEC ignition is powered from the Alternate
battery. The main battery is used to start the engine The cross feed is kept
open at this point so the two electrical systems never affect each other. If
you needed both batteries to start you would not turn on avionics bus until
engine started. You wouldnt have you oil pressure immediatly but this
shouldnt be a common occurance to need both batteries for starting. It seem
to me that this allows the Efis/One and the FADEC ing. to be at 12.5 volts
continually during engine start-up.=A0 What do you think?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Motor Glider System Questions |
| From: | Gerald Giddens <geraldgiddens(at)cox.net> |
> From: Gerald Giddens <geraldgiddens(at)cox.net>
> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:50:18 -0800
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Motor Glider System Questions
>
>
>
>
>> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
>> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:50:50 -0600
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Motor Glider System Questions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Bob,
>>> I have entered a subscription to matronics as you suggest. I hope I will be
>>> able navigate the site - an not be plaged by attempts to access my computer
>>> system as you lamented on your site.
>>
>> . . . not sure what your concerns are . . . there are no
>> potential risks to your computer to browse the matronics archives
>> or subscribe to any of their supported lists . . .
>
> Enough said
>
>>
>>
>>> I was able to print Z-13 - This was the schematic that I was first drawn to.
>>> The nature of a motorglider flight is motored flight then a transition to
>>> soaring flight - engine off - and the subsequent return for powered flight
>>> for a return home. This poses some interesting battery power conservation
>>> situations. Two batteries has been the main focus. Primarily concern is
>>> the ability to insure adequate power for engine restart. Engine restart is
>>> the #2 absolute requirement after the structural integrity of the airframe.
>>> A send alternator/dynamo has not been considered but is now on the table.
>>
>> What size engine are we talking about? Do you have any current
>> draw values for the starter?
>
> I have a Lycoming 150 HP(Low Compression 7:1) with a factory supplied Light
> Weight Starter. Will get starter information info from data plate if
> available - project is 1+ hour from home.
>
> I have a constant speed propeller with unfeathering accumulator - Hope is to
> be able to unfeather and "dive start", or at least assist battery start,
> after motorless soaring flight. The 2 battery installation with manual
> selection is planned. The only automatic function is the placement of a
> diode to allow charging of the soaring battery when the engine alternator is
> on line.
>
> I have not planned to parallel the batteries, however another parallel
> position could easily be added to the manual rotary battery selector switch.
> The thought is that the "soaring" battery will power the instrumention/radio
> etc buss to be used for soaring without accessing the engine start battery.
> While the engine is running, the soaring battery will be charged - a diode
> is planed to allow charging but not allow discharge of the soaring battery
> while the engine is running.
>
> What happens if one battery-(Soaring) is depleted and it is paralleled with
> a charged (engine) battery? Have no experience but it does not sound like a
> good idea to me. Also the hope is to be able to "dive start", if necessary
> after motorless flight with assist from engine battery as available.
>>
>>> My immediate need is info about determining the length to use in determining
>>> voltage drop. I could not find a clear explanation in 43.13. The
>>> explanation from an on line EAA tech differed from what I believe was on one
>>> of your web articles. I interpret what you said is that the wire length to
>>> use is that from the source , circuit breaker or buss connection, to the
>>> consuming device plus the wire length to a ground connection. 43.13 seems
>>> to indicate that, in an aluminum structure, the resistance drop from the
>>> ground connection to the battery ground to airframe is negligable.
>>
>> Unless you're building a large composite aircraft or a huge
>> aluminum airplane, voltage drops are not a driving consideration
>> for wire size. Table 11-9 in AC43-13 or Figure 8-3 of the
>> 'Connection can be consulted for recommended wires at the various
>> current ratings. Fuses/breakers should be the same size or
>> smaller than the recommended continuous current level.
>
> I am not sure if I am huge - it is a 2 place tandem, all aluminum airframe
> with a high aspect wing - span 63 feet, fuselage spinner to tail cone 33
> feet. Gross weight may approach 2400 pounds. Airframe is 95% complete.
> Depending to ground wire and/or airframe bond answer (see below) some
> circuit lengths may have a voltage drop problem - however the few circuits
> involved could be solved by increasing wire size.
>>
>>
>>> Another question is the sizing of the main power feed from the battery (aft
>>> baggage compartment) to the the main buss, estimated at 16 feet in my case,
>>> and the power feed to the starter - another 8 feet from the main power buss
>>> to starter relay and on to the starter. I am wondering about installing a
>>> ground conductor from the starter back to the additional engine ground
>>> connection on the firewall and possibly going onto the main ground buss at
>>> the instrument panel. Are we now at 32 feet for voltage drop? What about
>>> extending the ground wire another 16 feet to the battery(ies)?
>>
>> With the battery that far from the engine, make all cranking
>> circuit wires at least 2AWG. Welding cable will work fine.
>> Run braided number from crankcase to firewall ground stud,
>> bring battery (-) to this same stud via 2AWG wire. Let's
>> talk some more about how this airplane is used . . . you
>> may want to consider a dual battery installation.
>
> Would it make sense to bond/jumper all consuming devices to the airframe in
> addition to a ground wire from each device to a ground buss installed in the
> #2 ground wire return to the battery? In addition to the firewall and front
> cockpit ground buss, I planned to put a ground buss at the aft passenger
> panel, in the #2 ground return to the battery location and connect grounds
> from the aft PAX panel. Electrical items in the wing would ground in this
> aft buss.
>
> A 2 battery installation is definitely being installed.
>
> The mission of the Motorglider is to provide a 2 place aircraft capable of
> "light IFR" cross country powered flight allowing departure from a city
> metropolis to an area, where soaring flight is practical, and return. The
> aircraft is designed to have a glide ratio approaching 30:1. Fuel capacity
> is 40 gallons, however that amount would not normally be carried. The
> airframe is a conventional tail dragger with a mechanically retractable main
> (2 wheel) landing gear. The outer 13 feet wing panels fold over the top and
> rest on top of the inboard wing. There is adequate power to tow sailplanes,
> if or when a tow hook is installed.
>
>
>>
>> Bob . . .
> Thank You for your input
> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push to Talk Switch Wiring |
Thanks Bob......As always clear, concise information! I have your book
also and it has been a great help for this Rookie. Wiring is almost done
and the smoke is in the wires so far.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Push to Talk Switch Wiring
>
> >
> >
> >Charlie, I have a "Key Wire" from the audio panel to the jack
> >but.........most harness I have seen also have a wire for the push to
talk?
> >I believe I can jump off the jack key wire and accomplish the same
thing??
>
> This is generally the case. PTT leads to microphones and
> PTT leads to wheel/stick mounted buttons are one in the
> same circuit. When only microphone jack PTT wiring is
> depicted, then additional buttons are wired to the
>
> (. . . oops, too fast on the keys this morning, launched
> the message before it was finished)
>
> to the microphone jack. See page 11 of
> http://216.55.140.222/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Hot Little Torch |
I was in Radio Shack today and picked up one of their Mini Butane-Powered Soldering
Irons - #64-2188 - for $19.99. WOW what a neat tool! I highly recommend
getting one of these. I have no patience for waiting for a soldering iron to
warm up - I was using a full sized plumbers torch. That worked fine for all
but small items like the potentiometer on the light dimmer (no longer a potentiometer)
- but this torch is really slick. It comes with a blow torch tip (which
I plan to use) and then a soldering tip. The flame is very small and has
pin point accuracy - i'm impressed - go get one!
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom..." <tsled(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Is this a "good" battery for the price? |
Hiya Mr. Bob,
I found these battries what do you think of the last one, the surplus
"HAWKER G13EP" they actually weigh 10.8 Lbs. at:
http://surplusev.com/
I got two including shipping to me for $60.oo total ! What do ya think for
the price.
Tom...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | RE: starter considerations with EFIS/one and FADEC |
Tim,
This is essentially what I have done with the power to the dual
electronic ignition system that I've installed on my new RV-6A. I have a
dual battery electrical system. The Aux battery contactor is always open
during engine start, thereby assuring that that electronic ignitions always
get 12 V, and do not see any voltage spike on the main battery.
Once started, the Aux battery will switch onto the bus if it's contact
control switch is in the "Auto" position (it also has an "OFF" and an "ON"
position...). Also, once the engine is started, oil pressure switches
connect each ignition system (via a diode) to both batteries. So even if
both battery contactors are turned "OFF", the engine continues to run......
I'll be glad to share this circuit with the list if anybody is
interested.......
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV Reserved
From: TimRhod(at)aol.com
Bob and others:
Ive been thinking of solutions to some of the things=A0 we have been
discussing
concerning voltage drop when starting FADEC engines. Also concern
over
voltage spikes=A0 or low voltage problems with the EFIS/ONE=A0
during starting.=A0
Here is what I came up with.=A0 Using Z-14 DBDA=A0 Put all avionics
one one=20bus.
from main=20bus
through diode and avionics master switch. Second from Alternate bus
through
diode and avionics secondary master switch. Master switches are
included in
case EFIS systems need isolated as Greg Ricktor seems to think they
should
be. Third and fourth essential feeds from main batt buss and
alternate batt
buss on one switch that would choose one or the other.=A0 Cross feed
contactor
will not have starter switch included. Starter switch will be
seperate. Here
is how I envision it working.=A0 During start up sequence the
avionics bus can
be feed through the alternative electrical system. So the Efis/One
is powered
up from that source. Also the FADEC ignition is powered from the
Alternate
battery. The main battery is used to start the engine The cross feed
is kept
open at this point so the two electrical systems never affect each
other. If
you needed both batteries to start you would not turn on avionics
bus until
engine started. You wouldnt have you oil pressure immediatly but
this
shouldnt be a common occurance to need both batteries for starting.
It seem
to me that this allows the Efis/One and the FADEC ing. to be at 12.5
volts
continually during engine start-up.=A0 What do you think?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this a "good" battery for the price? |
>
>Hiya Mr. Bob,
>
>I found these battries what do you think of the last one, the surplus
>"HAWKER G13EP" they actually weigh 10.8 Lbs. at:
>
>http://surplusev.com/
>
>I got two including shipping to me for $60.oo total ! What do ya think for
>the price.
It's a very good price for this product. I would run
capacity tests to make sure they're okay (there is some
but a very small risk that 'surplus' inventory is also
abused inventory). With this technology, odds are in your
favor that they're an excellent buy.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Noise Filter Questions |
Hi Folks,
I've admitted defeat in my hunt for radio noise, and am putting
together one of Bob's noise filters. I'm using the Microair radio and
Flightcom 430 intercom. I'm making an assumption that a good choice
for the source of the noise is the essential bus to which both devices
are independantly connected. I intend to place the filter between the
bus and the devices, yellow wire connected to the bus as per Bob's
diagrams. If the bus is the source of the noise, it will no doubt be
effecting both the radio and the intercom. Can I feed both of these
devices from one filter (which would result in both devices being
connected to one fuse)or do I need a separate filter for each device?
Is there anything to worry about re: physical location of the filter?
Thanks for any ideas on this. Oh...one other question...if this filter
doesn't help, can I get a volunteer to take me out back and shoot me?
Thanks again.
Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y have about 70 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
The only problem we have with burning is the Mitsubishi alt. used on Ford
Tempo, Taurus and Thunderbird.
The other CS series GM and most other Ford alternators are all american made.
The ND alternator is very dependable and generally lasts 100,000 to 150,000
miles.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wendell & Jean Durr" <legacy147(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: starter considerations with EFIS/one and FADEC |
I for one would be interested in Mr. Stucklen's ideas.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter Questions |
>
>
>Hi Folks,
> I've admitted defeat in my hunt for radio noise, and am putting
>together one of Bob's noise filters. I'm using the Microair radio and
>Flightcom 430 intercom. I'm making an assumption that a good choice
>for the source of the noise is the essential bus to which both devices
>are independantly connected. I intend to place the filter between the
>bus and the devices, yellow wire connected to the bus as per Bob's
>diagrams. If the bus is the source of the noise, it will no doubt be
>effecting both the radio and the intercom. Can I feed both of these
>devices from one filter (which would result in both devices being
>connected to one fuse)or do I need a separate filter for each device?
>Is there anything to worry about re: physical location of the filter?
>Thanks for any ideas on this. Oh...one other question...if this filter
>doesn't help, can I get a volunteer to take me out back and shoot me?
>Thanks again.
>Bill Yamokoski, Glastar N4970Y have about 70 hours
Have you determined that the noise is indeed coming into
your affected systems via the 14v bus? What kind of
noise are you hearing and what tests have you conducted
to determine how it's getting into your radio?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hot Little Torch |
| From: | Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)attbi.com> |
>
>
> I was in Radio Shack today and picked up one of their Mini Butane-Powered
> Soldering Irons - #64-2188 - for $19.99. WOW what a neat tool! I highly
> recommend getting one of these. I have no patience for waiting for a
> soldering iron to warm up - I was using a full sized plumbers torch. That
> worked fine for all but small items like the potentiometer on the light dimmer
> (no longer a potentiometer) - but this torch is really slick. It comes with
a
> blow torch tip (which I plan to use) and then a soldering tip. The flame is
> very small and has pin point accuracy - i'm impressed - go get one!
>
>
>
>
Ditto. I bought one after almost being stranded 1500 NM from home with some
wires needing solder. Just the thing for the traveling tool kit.
Denis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
Interesting, as my local junk yard research is the (not good) bin is full of
ND alternators where the sliprings are worn out from external dirt. But then
I was only looking for small frame alternator to consider. Perhaps its a
local issue with dirt??
Paul
>
>
> The only problem we have with burning is the Mitsubishi alt. used on Ford
> Tempo, Taurus and Thunderbird.
> The other CS series GM and most other Ford alternators are all american
made.
> The ND alternator is very dependable and generally lasts 100,000 to
150,000
> miles.
>
> Steve
> Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: Wiring Diagram Questions |
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Fogerson
Subject: Fw: Wiring Diagram Questions
Hi Bob,
I sent this while you were gone so I'll try again.
Rick Fogerson
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Fogerson
Subject: Wiring Diagram Questions
Hi Bob,
I'm finalizing my wiring diagram and getting ready to order starter, alternator,
voltage reg, etc. from B&C.
I noticed on Fig Z-11 that a 5A CB is wired between the Bat/Alt Mstr Sw and the
Alternator Field terminal. As far as I can tell it is not on any other diagram.
Is the CB necessary in my situation and/or under what conditions?
I remember on the RV-6 wiring diagram you made for me back in 1996, I had two or
three big yellow in-line fuse holders on the firewall among the contactor wires.
Sorry, I don't remember exactly what wires, just a bunch of yellow holders
in that area. I was just curious why I don't see any in lines on the present
diagrams?
Last question: B&C sells two push to start sw's. An S895-1 with bare terminals
and according to B&C a 501-200-1 with soldiered wires, veristor across the terminals,
and potted in back. I'm not familiar with the latter and wanted your
opinion of it.
Thanks, Rick Fogerson
RV3 finish kit
Boise, ID
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lmc.cc.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter Questions |
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply. I was sort of thinking that the filter might
function as a very cheap diagnostic device if nothing else. If I
insert in between the bus and the radio, and things improve, great. If
they don't improve, I've learned something.
With the engine off I hear something every time I throw a switch,
from a low hum when turning on the gps to a very nice musical chirping
when the strobes are turned on. With the engine running, I'm getting a
rapid stocatto noise that varies in frequency with engine rpm. When I
depress the PTT switch I hear the stocatto noise very loudly. People
listening to my transmissions report hearing the same. If nav lights
and strobes are off, the stocatto isn't always present, and is less loud
when present. I hear others' transmission perfectly fine.
I'm using a Subaru engine, which has a computer controlling it.
I'm not sure if that can be part of this situation or not.
So...can I run two devices off one filter :)
Thanks again
Bill Yamokoski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Off Topic - cowl fasteners |
Hello
Im working to install my engine cowl and I got the Skybolt.com cowl installation
kit (on sale now 30% off - and no I don't work for them). I cannot emphasize
enough how much I would recommend this kit. I was not looking forward to the
cowl at all with this kit it sounds easy.
I cut the heck out of my engine baffles to allow my top cowl to fit nicely. I
took off my exhaust system. Im going to get the top and bottom cowl to fit together
nicely first This I can do on a workbench.
Next I will fit the bottom onto the firewall and then the top it sure sounds easy
with these fasteners. They certainly are not cheap but I am convinced the
finished product will be significantly better.
Piano hinge is for pianos.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Hinge pin/Radio interference |
I have heard of situations where a rattling hinge pin can cause radio
interference. Is this possible?
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter Questions |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
> Thanks for the reply. I was sort of thinking that the filter might
>function as a very cheap diagnostic device if nothing else. If I
>insert in between the bus and the radio, and things improve, great. If
>they don't improve, I've learned something.
Get a couple of 6v lantern batteries (Wallmart will sell you
a battery AND a flashlight for less $ than a battery alone)
to hook in series for 12v. Run first one, then other then
both devices from battery and see what effect it has on
your observed interference. IF the noise goes away, you
may well be advised to add the filter . . . but I'm skeptical.
> With the engine off I hear something every time I throw a switch,
>from a low hum when turning on the gps to a very nice musical chirping
>when the strobes are turned on. With the engine running, I'm getting a
>rapid stocatto noise that varies in frequency with engine rpm. When I
>depress the PTT switch I hear the stocatto noise very loudly. People
>listening to my transmissions report hearing the same. If nav lights
>and strobes are off, the stocatto isn't always present, and is less loud
>when present. I hear others' transmission perfectly fine.
It's very unusual for one to have such a combination and variety
of antagonists. I'm suspecting something in system assembly and/or
architecture. Let's do the battery test first.
> I'm using a Subaru engine, which has a computer controlling it.
>I'm not sure if that can be part of this situation or not.
Could be a contributor . . . fuel injectors and fuel pumps
have some degree of noise generating ability but the fact that
you hear all these other things suggests a more basic problem.
The vast majority of airplanes turn out noise free from
the get-go if all the rudimentary rules are followed. Let's
do some detective work before you break out hammers-n-saws . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hot Little Torch |
>
> >
> >
> > I was in Radio Shack today and picked up one of their Mini Butane-Powered
> > Soldering Irons - #64-2188 - for $19.99. WOW what a neat tool! I highly
> > recommend getting one of these. I have no patience for waiting for a
> > soldering iron to warm up - I was using a full sized plumbers torch. That
> > worked fine for all but small items like the potentiometer on the light
> dimmer
> > (no longer a potentiometer) - but this torch is really slick. It comes
> with a
> > blow torch tip (which I plan to use) and then a soldering tip. The
> flame is
> > very small and has pin point accuracy - i'm impressed - go get one!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>Ditto. I bought one after almost being stranded 1500 NM from home with some
>wires needing solder. Just the thing for the traveling tool kit.
got one in the toolbox at my desk at RAC . . . lets
you do things a long way from ac power mains . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Wiring Diagram Questions |
>Hi Bob,
>I sent this while you were gone so I'll try again.
>Rick Fogerson
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Rick Fogerson
>To: aeroelectric-list
>Subject: Wiring Diagram Questions
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I'm finalizing my wiring diagram and getting ready to order starter,
>alternator, voltage reg, etc. from B&C.
>
>I noticed on Fig Z-11 that a 5A CB is wired between the Bat/Alt Mstr Sw
>and the Alternator Field terminal. As far as I can tell it is not on any
>other diagram. Is the CB necessary in my situation and/or under what
>conditions?
A circuit breaker is shown for all alternator field/control
circuits utilizing crowbar ov protection . . . the crowbar
module's proper operation depends on the use of this breaker.
It appears on all diagrams.
A fuse could be used but since there are system situations
that can nuisance trip the crowbar ov protection, this is
the one circuit protective device that I recommend be in
reach of the pilot. It shows on all of our suggested switch
layouts at
http://216.55.140.222/articles/switchpanel/swpanel.pdf
>I remember on the RV-6 wiring diagram you made for me back in 1996, I had
>two or three big yellow in-line fuse holders on the firewall among the
>contactor wires. Sorry, I don't remember exactly what wires, just a bunch
>of yellow holders in that area. I was just curious why I don't see any in
>lines on the present diagrams?
Those fuse holders were determined to be too fragile
for use in airplanes. I ended up taking most of them
back when the customer had problems with 'em. If you
NEED a single, in-line fuse consider:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/ckrtprot.html#ifh-2
>Last question: B&C sells two push to start sw's. An S895-1 with bare
>terminals and according to B&C a 501-200-1 with soldiered wires, veristor
>across the terminals, and potted in back. I'm not familiar with the
>latter and wanted your opinion of it.
Use the first one. It comes with no MOV installed. The
MOV's turned out to be a bad idea . . . at least not as
good as using a diode across the contactor. The part number
with MOV installed is part of an STC'd kit that Bill sells.
It should probably be modified but it's so much hassle . . .
well, we've all heard that story before.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinge pin/Radio interference |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I have heard of situations where a rattling hinge pin can cause radio
>interference. Is this possible?
>
>
>Scott Bilinski
>Eng dept 305
>Phone (858) 657-2536
>Pager (858) 502-5190
ANY relatively loose joint carrying a current can and will
generate some degree of radio noise. Hinges, loose mounting
brackets, etc. will do it.
Now comes the issue of why does a hinge carry current? In
some cases, p-static current is enough to be a detectable
problem. I recall reading about a rudder hinge that only caused
radio noise at night! Seems that white nav light bulb grounded
through hinge which was right next to VOR antenna cat-whiskers
on vertical fin cap.
A few years ago, a popular myth circulated around the OBAM
grapevine about putting bonding straps across all surface hinges
on every airplane, including composites. Except for the obvious
rudder nav light situation, I doubt the usefulness of this
. . . but it sure doesn't hurt anything either. Keeps
pink elephants away too . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Ogle <pub(at)macrotechcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
Bob,
In a previous post you wrote:
> It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for
> configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should
illuminate
> IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the output
> transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a
> warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a
> level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but
> it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up
> resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp.
> Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp)
> and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the
> lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage"
> resistor inside.
I understand what you said. However, I would like a little
clarification.
Like some others, I am using a low current indicator (LED like).
Additionally, I would like to be able to test (monitor) my indicator(s)
circuit. In order to test my indicator circuits, I plan to use an active
low "push-to-test" switch that pulls the various indicator circuits low
(0.7V) using diodes to isolate the individual circuits. So, the question
comes up; Should I just simply view pin 5 of the LR3B as an NPN
transistor with a base to collector resistor? Is there any high side
leakage on pin 5?
As such, should I assume, during a LV condition with the 200 ohm
resistor installed as described above, that pin 5 will not pull all the
way to ground if the voltage on pin 3 (OV_SENSE) goes to zero or very
low? I've left out exact voltages. Because, I'd expect the value(s) to
be dependent upon the transistor's gain and value of the internal
collector to base resistor. I don't see any problem with the way LR3
works. It's excellent. I'm just trying to understand and anticipate what
I need to make my stuff work properly.
Is there any problem with my external indicator and monitoring circuit
pulling pin 5 low (open collector low)? Will LR3 continue to "regulate"
during such a condition? If things are the way I've tried to describe
(clarify), I would think this to be O.K.
BTW, I may be glad I found this post. Originally, I was going to feed
pin 3 (OV_SENSE) through a 10K resistor. However, it sounds like this
would be bad. A 10K resistor obviously won't work with the 200 ohm fix
described above. Also, is pin 3 more than just a high impedance voltage
sense? If so, how much current draw should I expect on this pin, even if
it is only milliamps?
The earlier thread was based upon the LR3B-14. Is the same true for the
LR3C-14?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Interesting, as my local junk yard research is the (not good) bin is full of
>ND alternators where the sliprings are worn out from external dirt. But then
>I was only looking for small frame alternator to consider. Perhaps its a
>local issue with dirt??
>
>Paul
This is how I would expect this alternator to fail most often.
In spite of small diameter slip rings (very low surface velocity
under the brushes) I belive the slip rings are the most
vulnerable feature of the design. It's an dry-running,
sliding-parts-interface relatively open to operating atmosphere.
If the rotors are balanced very carefully to favor bearing
life at typical running speeds on a Lycoming, then the
demonstrated service life of this alternator as a B&C product
is understandable.
Return rate on this alternator for reasons other than user
induced damage is virtually non-existent. There must be a couple
thousand in service since they were introduced at B&C about
12 years ago.
(Dave in Wichita, do you ever recall seeing a return for
wear-out or failure? I haven't talked with Bill about this
issue for several years now . . . the answer was always
the same. I'll ask him what the current record is next
time I talk to him.)
I think the B&C/ND service record stands head and shoulders above
the service record of ANY brand alternator on ANY airplane . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Lehman" <LehmansMtl(at)netzero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ... and burnt alternators |
"We also see many burned alternators from cars.
Mostly the the diode assy. and reg. in CS130 and CS144 series Delco. (late
1980's and up GM)
The B lead connector burns up on the Ford int. reg. alternators quite often,
including enough fire to melt other wiring that is close to the alt.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc."
The CS130 diode block life is so poor in auto service that I carry a spare alternator
in the trunk. I now seem to be getting better life with the Transpo DR4000
diode block and a cooling air blast tube (from front of rad). To the lister
who wrote that he must use this alternator on his aircraft, note that even
though rated at 105 amps, the CS130 gets very hot at only 40 amps output. And,
I've seen re-built CS130 alternators sold with a printed warning to never use
this alternator with a low battery ...
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
>
>Bob,
>
>In a previous post you wrote:
> > It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for
> > configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should
>illuminate
> > IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the output
> > transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a
> > warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a
> > level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but
> > it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up
> > resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp.
> > Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp)
> > and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the
> > lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage"
> > resistor inside.
>
>I understand what you said. However, I would like a little
>clarification.
>
>BTW, I may be glad I found this post. Originally, I was going to feed
>pin 3 (OV_SENSE) through a 10K resistor. However, it sounds like this
>would be bad. A 10K resistor obviously won't work with the 200 ohm fix
>described above. Also, is pin 3 more than just a high impedance voltage
>sense? If so, how much current draw should I expect on this pin, even if
>it is only milliamps?
>
>The earlier thread was based upon the LR3B-14. Is the same true for the
>LR3C-14?
Yes, the lamp driver is the same throughout the product's
evolution. But why are you hooking this lamp to a PTT circuit?
LEDs never go bad and the light gets tested every preflight
when you turn on the battery master. Testing the light as you've
proposed only tests the light which is always going to be good
. . . turning the alternator off will drop the bus voltage
which should get you a warning light in a few seconds . . .
this tests the entire LV warning system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Ogle <pub(at)macrotechcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
>>
>>Bob,
>>
>>In a previous post you wrote:
>> > It's sorta open collector . . . one of the requirements I had for
>> > configuring the output stage was that the warning lamp should
>>illuminate
>> > IF power were entirely removed from the regulator. To get the
output
>> > transistor to turn on using only continuity between the bus and a
>> > warning lamp, I put a resistor from collector to base to create a
>> > level of artificial leakage . . . no problem with .08A lamps but
>> > it will cause problems with LEDs . . . you need to add a pull up
>> > resistor that mimics the current draw of an incandescent lamp.
>> > Try adding 200 ohm, 1 watt resistor between terminals 5 (lamp)
>> > and 3 (lv sense). This should pull up firmly on pin 5 when the
>> > lamp should be off and swamp out the effects of the "leakage"
>> > resistor inside.
>>
>>I understand what you said. However, I would like a little
>>clarification.
>>
>
>
>
>
>>BTW, I may be glad I found this post. Originally, I was going to feed
>>pin 3 (OV_SENSE) through a 10K resistor. However, it sounds like this
>>would be bad. A 10K resistor obviously won't work with the 200 ohm fix
>>described above. Also, is pin 3 more than just a high impedance
voltage
>>sense? If so, how much current draw should I expect on this pin, even
if
>>it is only milliamps?
>>
>>The earlier thread was based upon the LR3B-14. Is the same true for
the
>>LR3C-14?
>
> Yes, the lamp driver is the same throughout the product's
> evolution. But why are you hooking this lamp to a PTT circuit?
> LEDs never go bad and the light gets tested every preflight
> when you turn on the battery master. Testing the light as you've
> proposed only tests the light which is always going to be good
> . . . turning the alternator off will drop the bus voltage
> which should get you a warning light in a few seconds . . .
> this tests the entire LV warning system.
>
> Bob . . .
Yes, I'm aware that LEDs don't burn out and that such a circuit would
only be testing the LV LED. (I'm an EE.) However, I do have my reasons
for wanting to do this:
1) My annunciators is a cluster of Honeywell AML45 series indicators. In
addition to main and aux bus LV warning, there are other items including
gear status, motor status, crossfeed, etc. At least two of the circuits
have relay circuits that get tested when the PTT is activated. Plus, a
portion of the gear wiring gets tested, as well. I could just have the
PTT light up only the LEDs that have "testable" circuits. But, from a
user (pilot) standpoint, I feel it is better to have a PTT simply light
up all indicators. Thus, the pilot does not have to stop and think...
"Hum, engine is off.. therefore only this one, that one and that one
should be on." Or, "Hum, engine is on... therefore this one, that one
and not that one, etc.". I'm just trying to keep the operational chores
simple. In other words, no thinking is required. Unless, one of the
indicators does NOT light up.
2) My annunciators are also on a high side dimmer circuit that auto
adjusts for ambient light. At the same time, you can adjust it manually,
as well. Although, I'm tweaking the limit of dimming so they are still
somewhat visible in daylight. In any case, I would like to have the PTT
for allowing the pilot to verify the dimmer setting.
The additional wiring and a few diodes is negligible. I don't see where
practical reliability is compromised. A failure of any of the PTT
circuits does not present any real hazard to the flight. Most of us are
already accustomed to PTT. So, why not have the user interface light all
indicators, not just the few that are really being tested beyond the
LEDs. Plus, it's a reminder and method to check the warning light dimmer
setting.
Not necessarily related to the "test" circuit discussed above, but, What
is the expected current draw on pin 3 (OV_Sense)?
Howard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo Wirin' |
Bob wrote:
> > I usually put a toggle switch next to the jack to flip
> > between stereo and monaural operation.
Mike wrote:
> The instructions for a stereo intercom I use advises to simply leave mono headphone
plugs one click out from fully inserted. The only 'down side', I've noticed
is selection of OFF or 'radio' on the intercom (or intercom failure) then
requires the mono headphone plug to be fully inserted.
Another workable solution- thanks! After drawing up the circuit for using a switch
as Bob suggests, it appears that not taking care to put the switch in the
"stereo" position still allows one channel to short if a mono plug is fully inserted.
What I have chosen to do is install both the
"transfer circuit" mono jack and a stereo jack, with one of those little spring-loaded
covers on the stereo jack labeled with an "S" as a "heads up" to prevent
mono insertion. About the same cost/labor/parts count as the switch, but with
the possible benefits of being less likely to insert
the wrong plug, a bit simpler, and having a flush surface (no protruding toggle,
although a slider or rocker switch could be used) Now if I could just decide
where to drill these six little holes!
Thanks again from The PossumWorks in TN - the A-list rocks!
Mark Phillips
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
>Not necessarily related to the "test" circuit discussed above, but, What
>is the expected current draw on pin 3 (OV_Sense)?
>
>Howard
As I recall, the drive is capable of pulling down
on a lamp rated at 100 mA or better.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
Thank you for your reply.
Years ago I spent a lot of time looking for "My Ideal alternator". With an
auto engine conversion a reliable electrical system is critical.
My question on the ND sliprings was that other small alternators NOT from
ND had little or no slipring wear and most had much larger diameter rings.
It seems to me the major issue with alternators is application and physical
location in autos plus the associated internal regulator that causes one
brand and/or another to fail more than another.
I understand the B&C ND alternators however have the regulator removed and
along with better balance is the reason they are so reliable.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator
>
> >
> >
> >Interesting, as my local junk yard research is the (not good) bin is full
of
> >ND alternators where the sliprings are worn out from external dirt. But
then
> >I was only looking for small frame alternator to consider. Perhaps its a
> >local issue with dirt??
> >
> >Paul
>
> This is how I would expect this alternator to fail most often.
> In spite of small diameter slip rings (very low surface velocity
> under the brushes) I belive the slip rings are the most
> vulnerable feature of the design. It's an dry-running,
> sliding-parts-interface relatively open to operating atmosphere.
>
> If the rotors are balanced very carefully to favor bearing
> life at typical running speeds on a Lycoming, then the
> demonstrated service life of this alternator as a B&C product
> is understandable.
>
> Return rate on this alternator for reasons other than user
> induced damage is virtually non-existent. There must be a couple
> thousand in service since they were introduced at B&C about
> 12 years ago.
>
> (Dave in Wichita, do you ever recall seeing a return for
> wear-out or failure? I haven't talked with Bill about this
> issue for several years now . . . the answer was always
> the same. I'll ask him what the current record is next
> time I talk to him.)
>
> I think the B&C/ND service record stands head and shoulders above
> the service record of ANY brand alternator on ANY airplane . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
> > (Dave in Wichita, do you ever recall seeing a return for
> > wear-out or failure? I haven't talked with Bill about this
> > issue for several years now . . . the answer was always
> > the same. I'll ask him what the current record is next
> > time I talk to him.)
> >
> > I think the B&C/ND service record stands head and shoulders above
> > the service record of ANY brand alternator on ANY airplane . . .
> >
> > Bob . . .
My recollection is that the numbers returned were very small. What the
reasons were for the failures in all cases excapes my memory. It seems
like we had one that we blamed on the regular high pressure washing by
the owner.
Dave in Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>
> > > (Dave in Wichita, do you ever recall seeing a return for
> > > wear-out or failure? I haven't talked with Bill about this
> > > issue for several years now . . . the answer was always
> > > the same. I'll ask him what the current record is next
> > > time I talk to him.)
> > >
> > > I think the B&C/ND service record stands head and shoulders above
> > > the service record of ANY brand alternator on ANY airplane . . .
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
>
>My recollection is that the numbers returned were very small. What the
>reasons were for the failures in all cases excapes my memory. It seems
>like we had one that we blamed on the regular high pressure washing by
>the owner.
Yeah, I remember that one. I think he was the Canadian atmospheric
research pilot flying a Long-Ez . . . not only did he like to keep
things REALLY clean, he managed to mis-understand how the LR-3
works with the alternator and hosed it too. Wanted me to send him
a schematic so he could 're-design it to eliminate obvious
flaws' . . .
I recall some coming back with b-lead terminals burned off due
to inadequate security of the nut on the stud. One other I saw
had some stator wiring damage from some external accident . . .
But you're right, returns were rare and never involved wear-out
or gross failure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Thank you for your reply.
>
>Years ago I spent a lot of time looking for "My Ideal alternator". With an
>auto engine conversion a reliable electrical system is critical.
>
> My question on the ND sliprings was that other small alternators NOT from
>ND had little or no slipring wear and most had much larger diameter rings.
>
>It seems to me the major issue with alternators is application and physical
>location in autos plus the associated internal regulator that causes one
>brand and/or another to fail more than another.
>
>I understand the B&C ND alternators however have the regulator removed and
>along with better balance is the reason they are so reliable.
Yes, B&C starts with brand new, factory fresh alternators.
They open them up and remove the built in regulator. There's
also a machining operation to accommodate a mechanical
hurdle with making a solid modification to the brush wiring.
Rotors are balanced and the whole thing is put back together
with Loctite on the threaded fasteners.
Service life has mostly to do with balance, re-assembly
with attention to detail and robustness of ND's product.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: lighting dimmers |
>Bob,
>
>I am wiring my Rans with a Rotax 912 using your diagram on pg. Z-15 in the
>aeroelectric connection. I have 8 internally lit automotive style engine
>gauges, a stereo AM/FM CD player, a KY97 comm. and a KT76 xponder, all with
>internal lights. I want to put an overhead flood for the flight instruments
>and switches, etc. On page 11-17 you talk about using a 1-3 switch to share
>a dimmer unit with two applications. Could I use the B&C dimmer assy. and
>have one circuit on all of the aforementioned internal lights and a second
>on an overhead flood?
If it were my airplane, I think I'd put the panel lighting
on a B&C dimmer and put the flood lighting on a single
lamp dimmer like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/SDK-1.jpg and power
it from the e-bus. What kind of flood lighting are
you considering. LED or incandescent? How much
current will it draw?
You COULD do as you've suggested but I like the idea
of totally independent systems powered from separate
busses.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinge pin/Radio interference |
Bob,
What about bonding straps for IFR aircraft that have static
wicks? Aren't these installed to protect against fusing the hinges in the
case of a lightning strike? With the RV hinge style Heim joint hinge
concept, there's not much electrical surface area between the control
surface and the fuselage.
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV Reserved
ANY relatively loose joint carrying a current can and will
generate some degree of radio noise. Hinges, loose mounting
brackets, etc. will do it.
Now comes the issue of why does a hinge carry current? In
some cases, p-static current is enough to be a detectable
problem. I recall reading about a rudder hinge that only caused
radio noise at night! Seems that white nav light bulb grounded
through hinge which was right next to VOR antenna cat-whiskers
on vertical fin cap.
A few years ago, a popular myth circulated around the OBAM
grapevine about putting bonding straps across all surface hinges
on every airplane, including composites. Except for the obvious
rudder nav light situation, I doubt the usefulness of this
. . . but it sure doesn't hurt anything either. Keeps
pink elephants away too . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Howard Ogle <pub(at)macrotechcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
> >Not necessarily related to the "test" circuit discussed above, but,
What
>>is the expected current draw on pin 3 (OV_Sense)?
>>
>>Howard
>
>As I recall, the drive is capable of pulling down
>on a lamp rated at 100 mA or better.
>
>Bob . . .
I think you mis-understood the question. This was the 2nd point
(question) of the original post. This one is NOT about pin 5 (LAMP). I
was asking about pin 3 (the pin also known as "OV_SENSE")? This is the
so called SENSE pin. If you don't know the precise value, is the current
draw on this pin in the order of microamps, milliamps, or amps? Or, what
is the impedance of this input? In other words, disregarding the
previously discussed 200 ohm resistor for a moment, is a very low
current (<0.1ma) voltage reference adequate for this SENSE pin?
Howard
________________________________________________________________________________
Mike:
You are right. The CS130 alt. are supplied in 85 to 105 amps. It's a small
unit for so many amps. The rear bearings are sealed ball bearings that fail
often from heat compared to the needle bearings used in the old SI series GM
alt. It is recommended not to charge a low battery with the alt., because it
causes it to put out max amps for an extended period of time. It therefore
overheats the diodes and they fail. The alt. are designed to put back in what
you used during starting and to run the vehicle and the accessories. The
later GM vehicles use a ducted hose to the rear of the alt. to try to solve
some of the overheating. They tend to fail in 40,000 to 60,000 miles. As far
as the wear on the ND alt., the slip rings may be worn on some, but they
still charge and seem to last two to three times longer than most but not all
of the GM's.
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | OVM Circuit Questions |
Bob,
I intend to 'Roll my Own' Crowbar OVM. I have a question about the 500 ohm
pot. Would it be possible to set this pot and then remove it from the
circuit, measure the resistance and replace it with two resistors. I
thought this might keep the circuit from drifting over time, due to
vibration, heat cycles etc. I just don't know if there is something else
that would cause this circuit to drift and necessitate re-calibration from
time to time.
P.S. I still intend to test the circuit at every condition inspection
regardless.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: lighting dimmers |
my floodlight plan is to use a flashlight - I do have the dimmer you mention -
but why not run it off the e-bus as well. does it draw that much running the
lights down low? I wouldn't think so.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>Bob,
>
>I am wiring my Rans with a Rotax 912 using your diagram on pg. Z-15 in the
>aeroelectric connection. I have 8 internally lit automotive style engine
>gauges, a stereo AM/FM CD player, a KY97 comm. and a KT76 xponder, all with
>internal lights. I want to put an overhead flood for the flight instruments
>and switches, etc. On page 11-17 you talk about using a 1-3 switch to share
>a dimmer unit with two applications. Could I use the B&C dimmer assy. and
>have one circuit on all of the aforementioned internal lights and a second
>on an overhead flood?
If it were my airplane, I think I'd put the panel lighting
on a B&C dimmer and put the flood lighting on a single
lamp dimmer like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/SDK-1.jpg and power
it from the e-bus. What kind of flood lighting are
you considering. LED or incandescent? How much
current will it draw?
You COULD do as you've suggested but I like the idea
of totally independent systems powered from separate
busses.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ray Allen stick grip wiring questions |
Hi all,
Maybe those questions have already been addressed, so please pardon me.
Question 1 :
In Bob's schematics, the PTT wire is invariably twisted with the
corresponding ground wire. In the four button Ray Allen stick grip
instructions they show a common ground wire for the PTT wire and the four
trim wires.
That's one ground for five wires. What should I do ? Twist PTT wire and
ground wire all the same ? But then what about the separate routing of the
ground wire to the firewall ground bus ?
Question 2 :
Ray Allen provides 20 ft of 26 AWG wire for the six wires from the grip.
Our kit manufacturer uses one multi-conductor shielded wire, the shield
playing a role as one of the wires.
What would be the best solution ?
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM Circuit Questions |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I intend to 'Roll my Own' Crowbar OVM. I have a question about the 500 ohm
>pot. Would it be possible to set this pot and then remove it from the
>circuit, measure the resistance and replace it with two resistors. I
>thought this might keep the circuit from drifting over time, due to
>vibration, heat cycles etc. I just don't know if there is something else
>that would cause this circuit to drift and necessitate re-calibration from
>time to time.
>
>P.S. I still intend to test the circuit at every condition inspection
>regardless.
I've never had a problem with pots changing setting
over time. If consider using multi-turn, screwdriver-
adjust pot. These are VERY stable with time and
environment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OV warning pin on LR3B-14 |
>
>
>
> > >Not necessarily related to the "test" circuit discussed above, but,
>What
> >>is the expected current draw on pin 3 (OV_Sense)?
> >>
> >>Howard
> >
> >As I recall, the drive is capable of pulling down
> >on a lamp rated at 100 mA or better.
> >
> >Bob . . .
>
>I think you mis-understood the question. This was the 2nd point
>(question) of the original post. This one is NOT about pin 5 (LAMP). I
>was asking about pin 3 (the pin also known as "OV_SENSE")? This is the
>so called SENSE pin. If you don't know the precise value, is the current
>draw on this pin in the order of microamps, milliamps, or amps? Or, what
>is the impedance of this input? In other words, disregarding the
>previously discussed 200 ohm resistor for a moment, is a very low
>current (<0.1ma) voltage reference adequate for this SENSE pin?
Oh, sorry. It's on the order of tens of milliamps but less
than 100 as I recall. This pin powers regulator and ov sense
electronics. It needs a separate, low impedance connection to
the bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hinge pin/Radio interference |
>
>
>
> Bob,
>
> What about bonding straps for IFR aircraft that have static
>wicks? Aren't these installed to protect against fusing the hinges in the
>case of a lightning strike? With the RV hinge style Heim joint hinge
>concept, there's not much electrical surface area between the control
>surface and the fuselage.
Static wicks are useful only to dissipate p-static
from the airplane with many, low-current bleed points
each one too quiet to contribute to atmospheric noise
in radios. They have no protective role to play in
dealing with a lightning strike. Bond straps across
hinges would mitigate the welding issue . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse block assembly |
- my idea
Todays Good Idea:
I"ve been stewing on how to make my e-buss and main buss and came up with a neat
idea.
If you are familiar with B&Cs ground blocks, the 24 fast-on tab ones well they
have a small hole on one end which would fit right onto the stud on the 10 slot
fuse block sold by B&C. The other end contains a large bolt.
My plan is to mount the 10-slot fuse block vertically with the ground block on
top again the small hole in the bottom of the ground block would go onto the
#8 stud off the top of the 10-slot fuse block. The two rectangular pieces would
each be mounted vertically tied together with the fuseblock stud.
Now make two of these units and let one be the main buss and one be the e-buss.
Mount them side by side on quarter inch white plastic board and just bolt the
board to another board (you might use 1/8 inch white board here - this just
insulates the through bolts which bolt the fast-on tab blocks to the white board
from the fuselage) - then bolt it all to the next panel behind the instrument
panel. Let the white board hang down below the bottom of this panel so the
fuse blocks are a bit easier to get to.
One of the vans guys once said he wished he had put a ground block behind the panel.
With my plan I will have plenty of fast-on tabs available for any main buss
needs, e-buss needs, fused needs, or ground needs all with easy access just
behind the panel.
Time to hit the sack hopefully I havent lost you here but it sure sounded like
a great idea to me.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitch Berger <mberger(at)snet.net> |
I have a strange problem with the com side of my
radio. Perhaps someone on the list can help.
When i tune in a com frequency on my #1 radio, (KX-175
mac1700 conversion) in the range of 118.30 to 119.75 I
get playback of my voice through my overhead speaker
when I don't have it selected on the kma 20. I use a
David Clark headset with headsets, inc anc conversion
and yoke mounted ptt. This creates a feedback
situation that makes my transmissions difficult to
hear on the receiving end.
When I switch to my second radio, KX 170b with the
same frequency, the playback through the speaker
doesn't occur and everything is ok, except I have
little or no side tone on that radio.
This situation on the #1 com does not seem to occur
when I tune in higher frequencies beginning in the
120's.
Hopefully someone can give me some guidance before I
consult with an avionics tech.
Best,
Mitch Berger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: lighting dimmers |
<5.0.0.25.2.20030327110307.01bdaca8(at)pop.central.cox.net>
>Thank you , Bob. I think I will use the little "eyeball" cockpit lights (2
>of them) to flood the panel. A/C Spruce and some others carry them. They
>are incandescent but I don't know the output.
Okay. I think the combination of two eyeball lights may
be on the same order of current draw as the single lamp
in the one-lamp dimmer kit. So a separate, low cost dimmer
control for your floods is feasible . . . the eyeball
lights may draw LESS current which means we might need
to put a resistor in parallel with the lamps to make them
draw ENOUGH current to properly dim with the simple
rheostat. So, if you want to go the separate dimmer
route, there is a ready solution. If you want to switch
two light sets to a single dimmer via switch, that's
okay too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse |
block assembly - my idea
>
>
>Todays Good Idea:
>
>I"ve been stewing on how to make my e-buss and main buss and came up with
>a neat idea.
>
>
>If you are familiar with B&Cs ground blocks, the 24 fast-on tab ones well
>they have a small hole on one end which would fit right onto the stud on
>the 10 slot fuse block sold by B&C. The other end contains a large bolt.
>
>My plan is to mount the 10-slot fuse block vertically with the ground
>block on top again the small hole in the bottom of the ground block would
>go onto the #8 stud off the top of the 10-slot fuse block. The two
>rectangular pieces would each be mounted vertically tied together with
>the fuseblock stud.
>
>Now make two of these units and let one be the main buss and one be the
>e-buss. Mount them side by side on quarter inch white plastic board and
>just bolt the board to another board (you might use 1/8 inch white board
>here - this just insulates the through bolts which bolt the fast-on tab
>blocks to the white board from the fuselage) - then bolt it all to the
>next panel behind the instrument panel. Let the white board hang down
>below the bottom of this panel so the fuse blocks are a bit easier to get to.
>
>One of the vans guys once said he wished he had put a ground block behind
>the panel. With my plan I will have plenty of fast-on tabs available for
>any main buss needs, e-buss needs, fused needs, or ground needs all with
>easy access just behind the panel.
>
>Time to hit the sack hopefully I havent lost you here but it sure
>sounded like a great idea to me.
I'm lost . . . are you suggesting that the ground blocks be
electrically tied to the buss-feed stud on fuse blocks? I'm
mystified as to why you would want to do this. Each fuse block
IS a bus . . . one fuse block for main bus, one for e-bus, perhaps
another for the battery bus. The ground block is central to the
whole electrical system and provides ground for virtually everything
except a short list of items which can ground locally in ships
with metal airframes. Ground blocks are not insulated from the
airframe but in fact are tied to the firewall sheet. This is where
all grounds come together including crankcase to firewall jumper
and battery (-) leads. I don't understand what you are trying
to achieve with the alternate configuration described.
Bob . . .
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: kma 20/kx175 |
>
>I have a strange problem with the com side of my
>radio. Perhaps someone on the list can help.
>
>When i tune in a com frequency on my #1 radio, (KX-175
>mac1700 conversion) in the range of 118.30 to 119.75 I
>get playback of my voice through my overhead speaker
>when I don't have it selected on the kma 20. I use a
>David Clark headset with headsets, inc anc conversion
>and yoke mounted ptt. This creates a feedback
>situation that makes my transmissions difficult to
>hear on the receiving end.
>
>When I switch to my second radio, KX 170b with the
>same frequency, the playback through the speaker
>doesn't occur and everything is ok, except I have
>little or no side tone on that radio.
>
>This situation on the #1 com does not seem to occur
>when I tune in higher frequencies beginning in the
>120's.
>
>Hopefully someone can give me some guidance before I
>consult with an avionics tech.
This sounds like a radio frequency interference
problem. You may be radiating a lot of the problem
transceiver's energy into the cockpit. Look for
open antenna coax shield connections at both
ends for that radio. If you can dummy-load the
offending transceiver (dummy load is a combination
of resistors designed to make the transmitter
THINK it is hooked to a properly operating antenna
while in fact, all of its output is being turned
into heat), and the problem goes away, it is
without a doubt related to degraded feedline
or proximity of antenna and audio system is too
close.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen stick grip wiring questions |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Maybe those questions have already been addressed, so please pardon me.
>
>Question 1 :
>In Bob's schematics, the PTT wire is invariably twisted with the
>corresponding ground wire. In the four button Ray Allen stick grip
>instructions they show a common ground wire for the PTT wire and the four
>trim wires.
>That's one ground for five wires. What should I do ? Twist PTT wire and
>ground wire all the same ? But then what about the separate routing of the
>ground wire to the firewall ground bus ?
I don't like to bundle grounds together . . . breaking one
wire kills all associated functions . . .
>Question 2 :
>Ray Allen provides 20 ft of 26 AWG wire for the six wires from the grip.
>Our kit manufacturer uses one multi-conductor shielded wire, the shield
>playing a role as one of the wires.
>What would be the best solution ?
. . . either should be fine but 26 AWG is not a very
robust wire for airframe wiring. We're doing the grand
experiment with Premier in that some 24AWG wire is used
in some bundles . . . up until now, 22AWG was the "smallest
wire" rule.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: lighting dimmers |
>
>
>my floodlight plan is to use a flashlight
is it mounted for hand's free operation?
> - I do have the dimmer you mention - but why not run it off the e-bus as
> well.
"E" stands for endurance. Most panel lighting
installation draw MUCH more current than what
is necessary to light the panel for en route
conduct of flight. Further, one would do well
to have TWO panel lighting schemes . . . one
that wows the air-show judges and one that
provides low current, minimal panel lighting
for conducing e-bus operations.
> does it draw that much running the lights down low? I wouldn't think so.
It isn't so much a matter of getting
current down as it is having two independent
lighting systems. One wire coming loose from
your end-all-be-all lighting system leaves
you in the dark no matter which bus it's
powered from. If the standby system is
also very low power, then it's an excellent
candidate for being powered by the e-bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: cooling fans |
>My all-electric liquid-cooled V8 engine has 2 radiators with 20-amp fans,
>similar to an auto. The fans are normally required only on the ground; for
>extended taxi on really hot days and for 10 minutes after engine shutdown
Do these fans really draw 20A or is that just the recommended
fuse size? 40A of fans for 10 minutes works out to
about 7 a.h. of capacity that needs to be dedicated to
post flight cooling operations.
> (it has a liquid-cooled turbocharger). I'm thinking of using 20 amp CB
> switches for the fans.
Wouldn't give you a $1 for a boatload of CB-Switches . . .
but whatever floats your boat . . .
> (I'm using fuse blocks wherever I can but the biggest plug-in fuse is 15
> amps).
> I'd like to be able to (1) turn them on and off with the switch as required,
> and (2) turn them on with a timer after shutdown.
In cool weather, it might be that a fixed time is longer
than necessary. Fans in cars are controlled with thermostats
and only run as needed. This seems logical for airplanes
too . . .
> I have a dual batt, dual alt (120 amp and 20 amp) system. Any ideas for
> wiring the fans?
Get some REAL operating currents for the fans. I'm
skeptical of the 20A figure. What size batteries are
you prepared to carry? Why a 120A main alternator?
Suggest you join the aeroelectric-list for the conduct
of this and similar conversations. It's much better to
share with everyone interested than to carry on
a limited one-on-one discussion.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Audio Isolation Amplifier |
I've spent about as much time on the audio isolation
amp project as I can for the moment. Need to
catch up on other commitments. In the mean time,
folks who would like an advance look at the data package
are invited to download . . .
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Audio_Prelim.pdf
. . . feedback on errors would be welcome. Should
be able to put the whole instruction set together for
publishing on the website next week. In the mean time,
we're headed for the workbench to slave over a hot
soldering iron . . .
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse block assembly |
- my idea
i'm using the fast-on tab ground block just as an extension of the buss on the
fuse blocks - not using it as a ground block. This would give me plenty of hook
ups for any other non fused power needs. But then I was think - it looks
like i want most things fused, so maybe i should just run the wire from the
master contactor straight to this main buss fuse block - what do you think?? I
do like the idea of mounting it on the white plastic board - so the fuse blocks
hang down - this would make it much easier to get at the fuses. This white
board might also be a good spot to mount relays and dimmers sytem, etc.
I made up a nice battery buss, I had not thought about fuses in that case - does
the hour meter need a fuse? does a clock which needs power all the time need
a fuse? sounds like I should change that bat. buss out for another fuseblock
- what do you think?
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>
>Todays Good Idea:
>
>I"ve been stewing on how to make my e-buss and main buss and came up with
>a neat idea.
>
>
>If you are familiar with B&Cs ground blocks, the 24 fast-on tab ones well
>they have a small hole on one end which would fit right onto the stud on
>the 10 slot fuse block sold by B&C. The other end contains a large bolt.
>
>My plan is to mount the 10-slot fuse block vertically with the ground
>block on top again the small hole in the bottom of the ground block would
>go onto the #8 stud off the top of the 10-slot fuse block. The two
>rectangular pieces would each be mounted vertically tied together with
>the fuseblock stud.
>
>Now make two of these units and let one be the main buss and one be the
>e-buss. Mount them side by side on quarter inch white plastic board and
>just bolt the board to another board (you might use 1/8 inch white board
>here - this just insulates the through bolts which bolt the fast-on tab
>blocks to the white board from the fuselage) - then bolt it all to the
>next panel behind the instrument panel. Let the white board hang down
>below the bottom of this panel so the fuse blocks are a bit easier to get to.
>
>One of the vans guys once said he wished he had put a ground block behind
>the panel. With my plan I will have plenty of fast-on tabs available for
>any main buss needs, e-buss needs, fused needs, or ground needs all with
>easy access just behind the panel.
>
>Time to hit the sack hopefully I havent lost you here but it sure
>sounded like a great idea to me.
I'm lost . . . are you suggesting that the ground blocks be
electrically tied to the buss-feed stud on fuse blocks? I'm
mystified as to why you would want to do this. Each fuse block
IS a bus . . . one fuse block for main bus, one for e-bus, perhaps
another for the battery bus. The ground block is central to the
whole electrical system and provides ground for virtually everything
except a short list of items which can ground locally in ships
with metal airframes. Ground blocks are not insulated from the
airframe but in fact are tied to the firewall sheet. This is where
all grounds come together including crankcase to firewall jumper
and battery (-) leads. I don't understand what you are trying
to achieve with the alternate configuration described.
Bob . . .
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
Bob,
What is your experience with using brass studs for conducting electrical
current? My question is about potential corrosion problems. Does the
stud need to be plated or is unplated acceptable?
Dave in Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Placing headset jacks |
AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips on
placing headset jacks
<<.....skip....Now if I could just decide where to drill these six little
holes!
....skip...... Mark Phillips >>
3/28/2003
Hello Mark, After 44 years plus of plugging headsets plugs into a wide
variety of locations I came to the conclusion that the best location for the
pilot's headset jacks (in a side by side seating arrangement) was behind the
copilots seat back and the best location for the copilots headset jacks was
behind the pilots seatback. In sight and always reachable even when strapped
in. No plugs to bump with your knee and no cords lying across your lap.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse |
block assembly - my idea
>
>
>i'm using the fast-on tab ground block just as an extension of the buss on
>the fuse blocks - not using it as a ground block. This would give me
>plenty of hook ups for any other non fused power needs.
Name any device you would even want to hook up that is
not fused . . .
> But then I was think - it looks like i want most things fused, so
> maybe i should just run the wire from the master contactor straight to
> this main buss fuse block - what do you think?? I do like the idea of
> mounting it on the white plastic board - so the fuse blocks hang down -
> this would make it much easier to get at the fuses. This white board
> might also be a good spot to mount relays and dimmers sytem, etc.
EVERYTHING that gets power from a bus uses some form
of protection. In our published drawings, distribution
from a bus is either via fuse, breaker or in rare cases,
fusible links.
>
>
>I made up a nice battery buss, I had not thought about fuses in that case
>- does the hour meter need a fuse? does a clock which needs power all
>the time need a fuse? sounds like I should change that bat. buss out for
>another fuseblock - what do you think?
EVERYTHING needs and should get protected . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brass hardware |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>What is your experience with using brass studs for conducting electrical
>current? My question is about potential corrosion problems. Does the
>stud need to be plated or is unplated acceptable?
Haven't had much problem with corrosion . . . pressures
at the mated surfaces are high and gas-tight or near gas
tight. The studs on White-Rogers (old Stancor-RBM) contactors
have always been copper. You may have a customer with
a plating requirement for exposed copper alloys. I think
Cutler-Hammer contactors have tin plated brass studs.
Corrosion resistant materials have higher resistance
and tend to be more of a problem than low resistance
hardware that might corrode a bit. What's your
application?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Placing headset jacks |
>
>AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips on
>placing headset jacks
>
><<.....skip....Now if I could just decide where to drill these six little
>holes!
> ....skip...... Mark Phillips >>
>
>3/28/2003
>
>Hello Mark, After 44 years plus of plugging headsets plugs into a wide
>variety of locations I came to the conclusion that the best location for the
>pilot's headset jacks (in a side by side seating arrangement) was behind the
>copilots seat back and the best location for the copilots headset jacks was
>behind the pilots seatback. In sight and always reachable even when strapped
>in. No plugs to bump with your knee and no cords lying across your lap.
Agreed. I was going to suggest above, behind and outboard of the
seat. I put some intercom systems in C-150s and moved the
mic-headset jacks to small boxes behind the seats. Cords were
always out of the way.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse block assembly |
- my idea
I would certainly think that a booster fuel pump would want a circuit breaker -
rather than a fuse - am I right on this one?
How about an electric attitude indicator - what's the point of a fuse the pilot
cannot replace in flight. The attitude indicator is an important item in IFR
- isn't it possible for it to start to fail and cause a surge in power (one
which might blow a fuse), but then it keeps running? I know it's not essential
for completion of the flight, but I certainly would prefer to have it -and
if a fuse blows - i'm absolutely not going to have the item work. Wouldn't
this also be the case with my electric turn coordinator??
I don't have my diagrams in front of me right now, but it seems like all of the
items on the e-buss would be better suited to ciruit breaker protection rather
than a fuse you cannot change in flight?
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>
>i'm using the fast-on tab ground block just as an extension of the buss on
>the fuse blocks - not using it as a ground block. This would give me
>plenty of hook ups for any other non fused power needs.
Name any device you would even want to hook up that is
not fused . . .
> But then I was think - it looks like i want most things fused, so
> maybe i should just run the wire from the master contactor straight to
> this main buss fuse block - what do you think?? I do like the idea of
> mounting it on the white plastic board - so the fuse blocks hang down -
> this would make it much easier to get at the fuses. This white board
> might also be a good spot to mount relays and dimmers sytem, etc.
EVERYTHING that gets power from a bus uses some form
of protection. In our published drawings, distribution
from a bus is either via fuse, breaker or in rare cases,
fusible links.
>
>
>I made up a nice battery buss, I had not thought about fuses in that case
>- does the hour meter need a fuse? does a clock which needs power all
>the time need a fuse? sounds like I should change that bat. buss out for
>another fuseblock - what do you think?
EVERYTHING needs and should get protected . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
> >Bob,
> >
> >What is your experience with using brass studs for conducting
electrical
> >current? My question is about potential corrosion problems. Does
the
> >stud need to be plated or is unplated acceptable?
>
> Haven't had much problem with corrosion . . . pressures
> at the mated surfaces are high and gas-tight or near gas
> tight. The studs on White-Rogers (old Stancor-RBM) contactors
> have always been copper. You may have a customer with
> a plating requirement for exposed copper alloys. I think
> Cutler-Hammer contactors have tin plated brass studs.
>
> Corrosion resistant materials have higher resistance
> and tend to be more of a problem than low resistance
> hardware that might corrode a bit. What's your
> application?
>
> Bob . . .
March 17, 2003 - March 28, 2003
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bu