AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bv
March 28, 2003 - April 05, 2003
>
The application is in an alternator fuse block on the firewall. The
stud is actually 5/16" dia with the end turned down to a 10-32 thread on
the end. An 80A Littelfuse MIDI fuse rests against the 5/16" dia
shoulder and is secured with a 10-32 nut. The 5/16" dia portion passes
through the wall of a J-Box to a current shunt inside. My concern is
for the connection between the alternator fuse and the 5/16" dia brass
part. Over time, with no inspection, will the corrosion cause a
localized overheating problem at that junction with continuous
alternator current.
Dave in Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse block assembly |
>
>
>I would certainly think that a booster fuel pump would want a circuit
>breaker - rather than a fuse - am I right on this one?
why? if the fuse/wire feeding the pump is proper size, it will
not nuisance trip. If the fuse/wire are proper size, the only
reason for the circuit to open is for reasons that make in-fight
reset risky if not hazardous.
>How about an electric attitude indicator - what's the point of a fuse the
>pilot cannot replace in flight. The attitude indicator is an important
>item in IFR - isn't it possible for it to start to fail and cause a surge
>in power (one which might blow a fuse), but then it keeps running? I
>know it's not essential for completion of the flight, but I certainly
>would prefer to have it -and if a fuse blows - i'm absolutely not going to
>have the item work. Wouldn't this also be the case with my electric
>turn coordinator??
>I don't have my diagrams in front of me right now, but it seems like all
>of the items on the e-buss would be better suited to ciruit breaker
>protection rather than a fuse you cannot change in flight?
Same as above. Review chapters 10, 17 and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvsbkr.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html
. . . and explain what conditions you anticipate
that fall outside the bounds for failure modes
discussed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brass hardware |
>
> What is your experience with using brass studs for conducting electrical
> current? My question is about potential corrosion problems. Does the
> stud need to be plated or is unplated acceptable?
Would not some battery terminal grease minimize this problem? I used some red-colored
"battery
terminal" spray (don't recall specific product) several years ago on lawn mower,
tractor & car and
it seems to be holding up very well.
From The PossumWorks
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Kevin, Craig and Cliff |
Heydi!
I'm just sitting here scratching my gut and reading the mail,
and I get the distinct impression you gentlemen are all misreading each
other.
3/8inch Aluminum is 3/8OD - it's also called dash6 size. That is what Bob
suggested since 5/16OD doesn't have very available fittings. The return line
for a 914 I'm almost sure would call for no more than 1/4"ID, but I'm using
3/8ID because it's easier and available - unless of course you leave a big
pump on but don't run the engine.
Cheers,
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
> >
>The application is in an alternator fuse block on the firewall. The
>stud is actually 5/16" dia with the end turned down to a 10-32 thread on
>the end. An 80A Littelfuse MIDI fuse rests against the 5/16" dia
>shoulder and is secured with a 10-32 nut. The 5/16" dia portion passes
>through the wall of a J-Box to a current shunt inside. My concern is
>for the connection between the alternator fuse and the 5/16" dia brass
>part. Over time, with no inspection, will the corrosion cause a
>localized overheating problem at that junction with continuous
>alternator current.
Exposed surfaces are going to corrode . . . the key is
how much PRESSURE you can maintain on the assembled
parts through which current flows. 10-32 thread on
brass should give you enough force. Put a torque spec
on the nut at about 75% of ultimate for the thread and
material. Use a Loctite product on nut and I think you'll
be fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Building an E-Buss, Main Buss, fuse block assembly |
In a message dated 3/28/2003 12:28:49 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> >
> >I would certainly think that a booster fuel pump would want a circuit
> >breaker - rather than a fuse - am I right on this one?
>
> why? if the fuse/wire feeding the pump is proper size, it will
> not nuisance trip. If the fuse/wire are proper size, the only
> reason for the circuit to open is for reasons that make in-fight
> reset risky if not hazardous.
>
>
Bob is clearly right on with this one. Ricky Nelson and several others were
KILLED by a flight crew person repeatedly resetting a circuit breaker on a
DC3 till the heater went up in smoke. !!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Lehman" <LehmansMtl(at)netzero.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Systems |
Paul Messinger,
I've just received a delivery fail notice for this reply (edited) sent to you privately
(because the idea was posted previously) about 5 days ago:-
Paul,
I'd like to extend your analysis 1 step.
We've got an external voltage regulator powered via a 5 amp field supply breaker.
However, virtually all light aircraft then power the field breaker from the
battery side of the 'B' lead fuse/breaker (typically 40 to 60 amps rating).
If this main breaker/fuse opens, the VR senses low voltage and maximizes alternator
field current in the impossible attempt to restore 13.8 to 14.5 volts on
the disconnected buss. The result is 100+ volts at the alternator B terminal
and sometimes severe alternator damage involving the faults mentioned. In my
opinion, the field supply breaker should be powered from the alternator side
of the main breaker.
Regards,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | headphone sockets |
">Hello Mark, After 44 years plus of plugging headsets plugs into a wide
>variety of locations I came to the conclusion that the best location for
the
>pilot's headset jacks (in a side by side seating arrangement) was behind
the
>copilots seat back and the best location for the copilots headset jacks was
>behind the pilots seatback. In sight and always reachable even when
strapped
>in. No plugs to bump with your knee and no cords lying across your lap.
Agreed. I was going to suggest above, behind and outboard of the
seat. I put some intercom systems in C-150s and moved the
mic-headset jacks to small boxes behind the seats. Cords were
always out of the way. Bob . . . "
Cheers,
On the topic of 'where do I put the headphone holes?', I thought
back to the fighter cockpits of yore (where space CAN be a problem, and hard
treatment also) in considering where mine ought to go.
In one, the plugs entered a socket pair on the wall at the right
knee. One leaned forward on entry and plugged in - the lines draped down to
the ankle and either inside or outside the belts. Damage to the leads was
minimal but was result of unsnagging on occasion.
In another, the sets were plugged in behind the head (plug in
the helmet, set it aside, then enter ). This produced a twofoot loop to
permit reaching forward, but was innocuous enough except for the entry need.
The third was the simplest - it plugged in at the hip on the
bump seat. Easy to attach, easy to avoid (came up the back of one shoulder),
minimum loop because the required length stayed constant, and if you gotta
go, the headset required no unplugging. This site is mitigated somewhat by
having to be protected against dust etc.
The number of aviators is legion, whose necks were stretched by
helmets plugged into departed aircraft.
Might be worth considering -
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Placing headset jacks |
I would put them so the cords are on the inside between the pilots but
otherwise agree with you both. My logic is if you need to exit in a rush
there are no cords between you and the door.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Placing headset jacks
>
> >
> >AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips on
> >placing headset jacks
> >
> ><<.....skip....Now if I could just decide where to drill these six little
> >holes!
> > ....skip...... Mark Phillips >>
> >
> >3/28/2003
> >
> >Hello Mark, After 44 years plus of plugging headsets plugs into a wide
> >variety of locations I came to the conclusion that the best location for
the
> >pilot's headset jacks (in a side by side seating arrangement) was behind
the
> >copilots seat back and the best location for the copilots headset jacks
was
> >behind the pilots seatback. In sight and always reachable even when
strapped
> >in. No plugs to bump with your knee and no cords lying across your lap.
>
> Agreed. I was going to suggest above, behind and outboard of the
> seat. I put some intercom systems in C-150s and moved the
> mic-headset jacks to small boxes behind the seats. Cords were
> always out of the way.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
"Bob is clearly right on with this one. Ricky Nelson and several others were
KILLED by a flight crew person repeatedly resetting a circuit breaker on a
DC3 till the heater went up in smoke. !!!!!!!"
Cheers,
See also: Air Canada DC-9 fire at Pittsburgh - and it
doesn't take aircrew to screw up - too many C/Bs in the cabin make that
possible. Wonder where the C/B for cabin entertainment on Swissair's FLt 111
was?
....and, bibliography on Kapton wiring may also provide
info!
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Systems |
Thanks, Some of us who live in the outskirts have problems from time to time
with the local ISP. Also lost mail etc. Not to mention no reasonable cost
hispeed access. Fast here is 26K.
While this should not be a design used by experimentals ( or any one ) I
agree with your point.
Thanks for the extra effort to contact me.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Lehman" <LehmansMtl(at)netzero.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Systems
>
> Paul Messinger,
>
> I've just received a delivery fail notice for this reply (edited) sent to
you privately (because the idea was posted previously) about 5 days ago:-
>
> Paul,
>
> I'd like to extend your analysis 1 step.
>
> We've got an external voltage regulator powered via a 5 amp field supply
breaker. However, virtually all light aircraft then power the field breaker
from the battery side of the 'B' lead fuse/breaker (typically 40 to 60 amps
rating). If this main breaker/fuse opens, the VR senses low voltage and
maximizes alternator field current in the impossible attempt to restore 13.8
to 14.5 volts on the disconnected buss. The result is 100+ volts at the
alternator B terminal and sometimes severe alternator damage involving the
faults mentioned. In my opinion, the field supply breaker should be powered
from the alternator side of the main breaker.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm involved in a discussion concerning resettable circuit protection verses
non-resettable in certified aircraft. Any resources you guys can recommend
would be appreciated.
One of the challenges with the non-resettable argument for certified
aircraft is that after certification, an aircraft is hard to change. If it
gets through certification with a system that has nuisance tripping of the
circuit protection device, the owner is stuck with it. Therefore you have
the argument that you need to be able to reset the circuit breaker because
you can't fix the problem.
The other argument I'm facing is that even though there may be a plan B when
plan A fails, plan A is more convenient. Therefore, if we can use plan A
even a few more times by simply resetting the circuit breaker, it's better
for the pilot.
What I would like to determine is whether there is enough of a safety hazard
to resetting circuit breakers to offset the need to reset a poorly designed
system that can't be changed.
Dave in Wichita
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
For Ron Triano, ref your e-mail to the list Sat March 1st,
I looked at stainless steel grab bars at Lowe's last night - $18 to $20 depending
on length, 1 1/4" dia I think, with welded flange.
I'd rather have the 5/8 diameter that you are using. Can you tell us where you
bought it (or where we could buy it), manufacturer, part number? I can't find
any "towel racks" that have this stainless steel flange on hollow tube feature.
I suspect the 5/8 towel bar will be cheaper than the 1 1/4 dia grab bar.
David Carter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Systems |
>
>
>Paul Messinger,
>
>I've just received a delivery fail notice for this reply (edited) sent to
>you privately (because the idea was posted previously) about 5 days ago:-
>
>Paul,
>
>I'd like to extend your analysis 1 step.
>
>We've got an external voltage regulator powered via a 5 amp field supply
>breaker. However, virtually all light aircraft then power the field
>breaker from the battery side of the 'B' lead fuse/breaker (typically 40
>to 60 amps rating). If this main breaker/fuse opens, the VR senses low
>voltage and maximizes alternator field current in the impossible attempt
>to restore 13.8 to 14.5 volts on the disconnected buss. The result is
>100+ volts at the alternator B terminal and sometimes severe alternator
>damage involving the faults mentioned. In my opinion, the field supply
>breaker should be powered from the alternator side of the main breaker.
I have seen this theory advanced before . . . and illustrated
in a number of wiring diagrams . . . some on STC'd alternator
installations for certified aircraft.
Consider that the 60A breaker on virtually ALL production
aircraft with alternators is DESIGNED to nuisance trip. I've
had it happen to me on one occasion. In this instance and
many others observed over the years, the regulator does
indeed go to full-output in an attempt to raise bus voltage.
I've never talked to the designers who choose to wire
the field supply to the alternator side of the b-lead
breaker . . . so I can only guess at their rational for
doing so. It's fairly easy to deduce the effects of
this architecture under various abnormal conditions.
If the b-lead breaker is open before the system is brought
up, the alternator never gets start-up power from the
bus and as long as the alternator is incapable of self
exciting, it will remain dormant after engine start
irrespective of switch positions.
If the b-lead breaker opens due to nuisance trip after
the system is running, then the alternator is indeed
isolated from the bus and it may continue to run self
excited but regulated.
I cannot deduce any particular benefit for wiring
the system this way. It may be that the designer
was concerned about the potential for diode failure
in the "runaway" condition that results when the
regulator looses sight of the b-lead output voltage.
Diode failure under open-circuit runaway conditions
was a key component of Paul's failure mode hypothesis
that I didn't recognize at first. Let's examine
this hypothesis:
I've heard also that typical alternator diodes are
RATED at 200 piv or thereabouts. In some components,
it may be rational to assume that the device is at
high risk of failure at 225 or even 250 volts.
Considering the fact that b-lead breakers open
routinely in certified ships and often goes unnoticed
for minutes to hours suggests that the non-regenerative
runaway (field stays at bus voltage) doesn't
produce a lot of failures. I've read many
dark-n-stormy night stories and even my
own experience has demonstrated that this
is not an automatic recipe for diode failure.
About 40 years ago, I was doing design work
in a nuclear fuel processing plant. I had
a task to look at ways to modernize some of
our GM tube radiation detectors. The GM tube
needed a relatively constant 900 volt
source for proper operation. At the suggestion
of one of the best teachers I ever had,
I explored the avalanche (breakdown) voltage
of garden variety silicon diodes. I found that
many 400 volt rated devices went into avalanche
in the 900 +/- 50V range I was looking for.
The current we subjected these devices to was
on the order of 10-20 MICROamps so the energy
dissipated was well within the physical
ability of the diode to tolerate. Here's
an example of how a diode could be usefully
operated in a mode that might otherwise prove
fatal to the device. The interesting point
of this experience was that the 400 volt
devices didn't go into potentially fatal
avalanche operation at voltages more than
TWICE the rated voltage of the device.
Of course, this is quite temperature dependent
and in no way suggests that we should count
on a run-of-the-mill alternator diode being
good for 400 volts . . . my point is that
past experience shows that these alternators
are routinely capable of sustained operation
at 8-15 times normal output voltage without
suffering diode failure.
Which brings me to the condition Paul was
considering hazardous. I agree that diode
failure (opens or shorts) and/or mechanical
shorts in windings to the core are necessary
to produce burned windings. In a 3-phase
alternator, each winding carries an average
of 1/3 total output meaning that a 60A
alternator can be wound with 20A wire. When
load sharing is upset by any of several
failures, stator windings are indeed at risk
of overload and destruction.
Never-the-less, destruction of the windings
while smelly is not very spectacular and
given their location on the engine, they
represent no risk of bringing one spiraling
out of the sky trailing black smoke and
flames.
Getting back to the idea of relocating the
field feed breaker to the alternator
side of the b-lead breaker . . . The
only benefit I can deduce for this design
is to limit the alternator's output in
case the b-lead breaker nuisance trips.
We KNOW this to be a long standing, well understood
problem with the design of most certified
ships flying . . . it seems better
to up-size the b-lead protection to ELIMINATE
the nuisance trip than to relocate field
feed point to ACCOMMODATE what amounts to
a basic design flaw.
One last failure mode: In the case of
REGENERATIVE runaway for an alternator with a
built-in regulator where we deliberately cut the
b-lead loose from the airplane, there is
certainly an increased risk of loosing diodes
compared to the simple fixed-field runaway
that occurs when the b-lead breaker opens
and the field stays at 12v.
This is a toss of the coin. We know that b-lead
output will rise quickly to levels that are
greater than fix-field levels. It seems like
the alternator design would benefit from an
internal field fuse rated at, say 5A. This is
much higher than any normal field currents but
much lower than what would be induced by a
regenerative runaway . . . the I(squared)*T
constant for the fuse is much shorter than
for 22AWG field winding wire. A regenerative
runaway event would terminate very quickly at
much less risk to the diodes.
The likelihood of ever having an ov condition
is low. Likelihood of burning stator wires is
not zero but it's low. Likelihood of a burned
wire being a hazard is extremely low. Aside
from having rotors balanced (with pulley
installed), I can think of nothing we might
do to INCREASE reliability of these inexpensive
and robust products.
I find no compelling reason to discourage anyone
from taking advantage of modern, internally
regulated alternators when fitted with a means
for containing an overvoltage event. These
alternators are demonstrably better products
than those flying most certified ships today.
Many OBAM aircraft owners have elected to run
one-wire alternators without ov protection.
The odds of a trouble free operation over the
lifetime of the airplane are very much in their
favor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
I have had smoke in the cockpit in certificated acft a couple of times. A
master breaker saved my butt once as it was in IFR. Turned out to be COM #2.
breaker never opened as short was current limited and hist burned internal
to radio. The other case was the same but could have continued with master
off if needed.
Had I not has a manually openable CB I am not sure how things would have
turned out. So its not just a CB but if you have one be sure you can pull it
open.
What I did was to pull the master and then each individual CB. reset master
and close others one at a time until source of smoke was found. No radio/nav
was not really an option in IFR.
However all the cases of crashes etc from having resetable CB is from the
pilots or crews lack of the first rule of flight. FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST AND
ALWAYS.
Many pilots allow a problem to distract them and the result is usually very
bad. A simple problem crashed the afft because of pilot distraction.
Thus I feel in most cases Bob is right. Design your acft so you can keep
going with no inflight trouble shooting needed.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Resetting C/Bs
>
> I'm involved in a discussion concerning resettable circuit protection
verses
> non-resettable in certified aircraft. Any resources you guys can
recommend
> would be appreciated.
>
> One of the challenges with the non-resettable argument for certified
> aircraft is that after certification, an aircraft is hard to change. If
it
> gets through certification with a system that has nuisance tripping of the
> circuit protection device, the owner is stuck with it. Therefore you have
> the argument that you need to be able to reset the circuit breaker because
> you can't fix the problem.
>
> The other argument I'm facing is that even though there may be a plan B
when
> plan A fails, plan A is more convenient. Therefore, if we can use plan A
> even a few more times by simply resetting the circuit breaker, it's better
> for the pilot.
>
> What I would like to determine is whether there is enough of a safety
hazard
> to resetting circuit breakers to offset the need to reset a poorly
designed
> system that can't be changed.
>
> Dave in Wichita
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
>
>
>I'm involved in a discussion concerning resettable circuit protection verses
>non-resettable in certified aircraft. Any resources you guys can recommend
>would be appreciated.
>
>One of the challenges with the non-resettable argument for certified
>aircraft is that after certification, an aircraft is hard to change. If it
>gets through certification with a system that has nuisance tripping of the
>circuit protection device, the owner is stuck with it. Therefore you have
>the argument that you need to be able to reset the circuit breaker because
>you can't fix the problem.
>
>The other argument I'm facing is that even though there may be a plan B when
>plan A fails, plan A is more convenient. Therefore, if we can use plan A
>even a few more times by simply resetting the circuit breaker, it's better
>for the pilot.
>
>What I would like to determine is whether there is enough of a safety hazard
>to resetting circuit breakers to offset the need to reset a poorly designed
>system that can't be changed.
Why would a poorly designed system have to go to production?
Surely we've got plenty of lessons learned from the past 5 decades
of aircraft production. It's hard to beat good critical design review
from a cadre of folks who understand the goals AND the
history of where we've come from. In the final analysis,
when in doubt, make it the next size bigger. There's nothing
that prohibits you from piping power to a product on bigger
wires than might otherwise be assumed adequate. Knowing the
characteristics of the load is useful too . . . "Oh yeah,
when it goes into the self cleaning mode, current draw
is 50% above operating mode . . . we recommend you don't
punch that button while airborne . . ." The questions
that bite later are the ones not asked going in.
No matter how convenient Plan A, there will always
be a whole lot more failure modes that DON'T pop
the breaker than the ones which DO pop the breaker.
Likelihood of "saving the day" or even improving
levels of comfort for having a breaker to punch
is very low.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
>
>
>I have had smoke in the cockpit in certificated acft a couple of times. A
>master breaker saved my butt once as it was in IFR.
what's a "master breaker"?
> Turned out to be COM #2.
>breaker never opened as short was current limited and hist burned internal
>to radio. The other case was the same but could have continued with master
>off if needed.
>Had I not has a manually openable CB I am not sure how things would have
>turned out. So its not just a CB but if you have one be sure you can pull it
>open.
I'm surprised that the on/off switch for a radio didn't offer
a disconnect for everything powered within the radio.
>What I did was to pull the master and then each individual CB. reset master
>and close others one at a time until source of smoke was found. No radio/nav
>was not really an option in IFR.
>
>However all the cases of crashes etc from having resetable CB is from the
>pilots or crews lack of the first rule of flight. FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST AND
>ALWAYS.
>
>Many pilots allow a problem to distract them and the result is usually very
>bad. A simple problem crashed the acft because of pilot distraction.
>
>Thus I feel in most cases Bob is right. Design your acft so you can keep
>going with no inflight trouble shooting needed.
I think Dave's issue was whether or not to offer breakers
that can be re-closed . . . for example, most production SE Cessnas
have push-only breakers. If one can justify putting those breakers
out of reach -or- replacing with no-flight-fiddling fuses, are
risks to the outcome of flight increased? I would suggest
that risks are decreased due to reduced pilot distraction as
long as one has a plan-B alternative for the most necessary
equipment items.
Bob . . .
>Paul
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Resetting C/Bs
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm involved in a discussion concerning resettable circuit protection
>verses
> > non-resettable in certified aircraft. Any resources you guys can
>recommend
> > would be appreciated.
> >
> > One of the challenges with the non-resettable argument for certified
> > aircraft is that after certification, an aircraft is hard to change. If
>it
> > gets through certification with a system that has nuisance tripping of the
> > circuit protection device, the owner is stuck with it. Therefore you have
> > the argument that you need to be able to reset the circuit breaker because
> > you can't fix the problem.
> >
> > The other argument I'm facing is that even though there may be a plan B
>when
> > plan A fails, plan A is more convenient. Therefore, if we can use plan A
> > even a few more times by simply resetting the circuit breaker, it's better
> > for the pilot.
> >
> > What I would like to determine is whether there is enough of a safety
>hazard
> > to resetting circuit breakers to offset the need to reset a poorly
>designed
> > system that can't be changed.
> >
> > Dave in Wichita
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
See comments below:
Dave in Wichita
> Why would a poorly designed system have to go to production?
> Surely we've got plenty of lessons learned from the past 5 decades
> of aircraft production. It's hard to beat good critical design review
> from a cadre of folks who understand the goals AND the
> history of where we've come from. In the final analysis,
> when in doubt, make it the next size bigger. There's nothing
> that prohibits you from piping power to a product on bigger
> wires than might otherwise be assumed adequate. Knowing the
> characteristics of the load is useful too . . . "Oh yeah,
> when it goes into the self cleaning mode, current draw
> is 50% above operating mode . . . we recommend you don't
> punch that button while airborne . . ." The questions
> that bite later are the ones not asked going in.
Perhaps the nuisance tripping situations I'm thinking of shouldn't really be
called nuisance tripping. Some of the failure modes I'm thinking of are
flap systems that get out of rig and allow the motor to drive to a hard
mechanical stop and pop the breaker. Reversing the direction and resetting
the breaker gets you back into business where a fuse wouldn't. I was told
by a pilot in on the discussion that he is flying a Cheyenne with the same
sort of problem with a deicing flap of some sort. The group I'm part of
would like to tell the world of certified airframers that we are the answer
to their electrical needs. From power generation, to complete distribution.
Some customers may not give us much freedom in redesigning the individual
systems, so we have to accomodate the quirks of the existing pieces of the
system as best we can. One of those quirks may be a failure mode where the
system could be recovered if the circuit protection device could be reset.
>
> No matter how convenient Plan A, there will always
> be a whole lot more failure modes that DON'T pop
> the breaker than the ones which DO pop the breaker.
> Likelihood of "saving the day" or even improving
> levels of comfort for having a breaker to punch
> is very low.
>
The response I got to that argument when I made it was that even if we are
only able to recover the system 1% of the times we reset the breaker, we
need to do it for the 1% of times because the assumption is that there is no
downside to the ability of being able to reset. This was with the premise
that cost and panel space were not a problem. If there was an additional
argument, such as safety, that could be made against resetting, it would go
a long way. The other part of the equation is that from a business
perspective, it may be easier to win over more potential customers if we
offered resettable circuit protection than if we have to go through this
same argument and convincing process with each customer.
It's very appealing to some to be able to offer a big "WOW" factor with
systems involving data busses that control and monitor everything, flat
screen control and warning panels that can display information in many
colors and allow you to control anything at the touch of a button. How can
a fuse and switch be "state of the art"?
The Cheyenne pilot I mentioned earlier said that you won't be able to get
pilots to give up the ability to do troubleshooting. That's why they go to
flight safety training and all that.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom FRIEDLAND" <beecho(at)neteze.com> |
>No radio/nav was not really an option in IFR.
Not necessarily... I left DesMoine IFR for Denver when we lost the
generator and all battery power. (Army Beaver) We had gyros and a mag
compass and flew a direct compass course for 3 hours at our last
assigned altitude. We eventually saw Pikes Peak and got light signals
to clear to land. ATC had 7000 feet cleared for most of the Midwest!
Tom Friedland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Resetting C/Bs
>
>
>I have had smoke in the cockpit in certificated acft a couple of times.
A
>master breaker saved my butt once as it was in IFR.
what's a "master breaker"?
> Turned out to be COM #2.
>breaker never opened as short was current limited and hist burned
internal
>to radio. The other case was the same but could have continued with
master
>off if needed.
>Had I not has a manually openable CB I am not sure how things would
have
>turned out. So its not just a CB but if you have one be sure you can
pull it
>open.
I'm surprised that the on/off switch for a radio didn't offer
a disconnect for everything powered within the radio.
>What I did was to pull the master and then each individual CB. reset
master
>and close others one at a time until source of smoke was found. No
radio/nav
>was not really an option in IFR.
>
>However all the cases of crashes etc from having resetable CB is from
the
>pilots or crews lack of the first rule of flight. FLY THE AIRPLANE
FIRST AND
>ALWAYS.
>
>Many pilots allow a problem to distract them and the result is usually
very
>bad. A simple problem crashed the acft because of pilot distraction.
>
>Thus I feel in most cases Bob is right. Design your acft so you can
keep
>going with no inflight trouble shooting needed.
I think Dave's issue was whether or not to offer breakers
that can be re-closed . . . for example, most production SE Cessnas
have push-only breakers. If one can justify putting those breakers
out of reach -or- replacing with no-flight-fiddling fuses, are
risks to the outcome of flight increased? I would suggest
that risks are decreased due to reduced pilot distraction as
long as one has a plan-B alternative for the most necessary
equipment items.
Bob . . .
>Paul
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Resetting C/Bs
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm involved in a discussion concerning resettable circuit
protection
>verses
> > non-resettable in certified aircraft. Any resources you guys can
>recommend
> > would be appreciated.
> >
> > One of the challenges with the non-resettable argument for certified
> > aircraft is that after certification, an aircraft is hard to change.
If
>it
> > gets through certification with a system that has nuisance tripping
of the
> > circuit protection device, the owner is stuck with it. Therefore
you have
> > the argument that you need to be able to reset the circuit breaker
because
> > you can't fix the problem.
> >
> > The other argument I'm facing is that even though there may be a
plan B
>when
> > plan A fails, plan A is more convenient. Therefore, if we can use
plan A
> > even a few more times by simply resetting the circuit breaker, it's
better
> > for the pilot.
> >
> > What I would like to determine is whether there is enough of a
safety
>hazard
> > to resetting circuit breakers to offset the need to reset a poorly
>designed
> > system that can't be changed.
> >
> > Dave in Wichita
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron <rondefly(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
Hi Dave, I did not purchase mine, they were left over from a store I built
in the bay area CA, The owner of the store supplied all the hardware. i will
see if I can find out where they purchased them, Find a store that sells
bobrick hardware. I believe that was the kind. If not it would be pretty
easy to weld up some.
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of David
Carter
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetration
For Ron Triano, ref your e-mail to the list Sat March 1st,
I looked at stainless steel grab bars at Lowe's last night - $18 to $20
depending on length, 1 1/4" dia I think, with welded flange.
I'd rather have the 5/8 diameter that you are using. Can you tell us where
you bought it (or where we could buy it), manufacturer, part number? I
can't find any "towel racks" that have this stainless steel flange on hollow
tube feature. I suspect the 5/8 towel bar will be cheaper than the 1 1/4
dia grab bar.
David Carter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Systems |
In a message dated 3/29/2003 1:37:19 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> I find no compelling reason to discourage anyone
> from taking advantage of modern, internally
> regulated alternators when fitted with a means
> for containing an overvoltage event. These
> alternators are demonstrably better products
> than those flying most certified ships today.
> Many OBAM aircraft owners have elected to run
> one-wire alternators without ov protection.
> The odds of a trouble free operation over the
> lifetime of the airplane are very much in their
> favor.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Once again I want to thank you for all your time you spend explaining the
finer details of the electrical systems. Not only are you VERY sharp in the
field you are willing to take time to help us all out in understanding the
workings of our charging systems. I hope we meet one day at a fly in because
you are getting a nice dinner paid for by me. Thanks again. Ben Haas. N801BH.
Jackson Hole WY.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
I used the 1 1/4 OD size - ran ALL off my engine wires through AN10 fire sleeve
(I think that was the size) and ran the fire sleeve throught the 1 1/4 OD firewall
fitting. The fitting I got had 3 mount holes in the flange - I mounted
the engine side with the tube pointing down at about a 45degree angle then on
the inside I mounted the other half facing straight up - maybe that's overkill
but I was able to use only the three holes in each flange. I was able to have
ALL my wires run through firesleeve to protect them from chaffing inside the
firewall fitting. Then to top it all off on the outside I put a larger firesleeve
around the entire bundle which will slide back over the outside of the
1 1/4 tube on the firewall fitting. I'll put a hose clamp on that piece to hold
it in place. It came out slick as can be. I highly recommend it. it is
loose enough so I might slip a couple more wires through without having to take
the fittings off the firewall. by the time you get everything run, it's quite
a big bundle of wires -I kept forgetting things -like 4 EGT & 4 CHT probe wires
take up some room if you get the ones shielded - and then they already have
the ends on them - so that complicates getting it through the tube - having
done it- you could never persuade me to go with smaller tube size. The only
other wire I ran was my Bat. buss wire - that's supposed to be only 6 inches
and I ran it using another rig.
my 2 cents for now.
David Carter wrote:--> AeroElectric-List message posted
by: "David Carter"
For Ron Triano, ref your e-mail to the list Sat March 1st,
I looked at stainless steel grab bars at Lowe's last night - $18 to $20 depending
on length, 1 1/4" dia I think, with welded flange.
I'd rather have the 5/8 diameter that you are using. Can you tell us where you
bought it (or where we could buy it), manufacturer, part number? I can't find
any "towel racks" that have this stainless steel flange on hollow tube feature.
I suspect the 5/8 towel bar will be cheaper than the 1 1/4 dia grab bar.
David Carter
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
you want Franklin Brass (a Masco Company), #6424 - grab bar - 24 inch - stainless
steel, UPS code 0-79171-64245-6 - I got mine at home depot. once in a while
I have a good idea and this one is REALLY good. mines all done and looks
totally awesome.
Hi Dave, I did not purchase mine, they were left over from a store I built
in the bay area CA, The owner of the store supplied all the hardware. i will
see if I can find out where they purchased them, Find a store that sells
bobrick hardware. I believe that was the kind. If not it would be pretty
easy to weld up some.
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of David
Carter
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetration
For Ron Triano, ref your e-mail to the list Sat March 1st,
I looked at stainless steel grab bars at Lowe's last night - $18 to $20
depending on length, 1 1/4" dia I think, with welded flange.
I'd rather have the 5/8 diameter that you are using. Can you tell us where
you bought it (or where we could buy it), manufacturer, part number? I
can't find any "towel racks" that have this stainless steel flange on hollow
tube feature. I suspect the 5/8 towel bar will be cheaper than the 1 1/4
dia grab bar.
David Carter
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | question on alternators/controllers |
I Just finished the installation of an overhauled alternator (Aeroelectrics)
and new Zeftronics alternaor controller in a Piper PA-24-250 Comanche.=A0 =20I
replaced all of the the wires firewall forward.=A0 New ground wires.=A0
Dedicated ground wire from the alternator to the alternator controller.=A0 =20
On
engine start, the ammeter goes up like expected then decreases as expected.=A0
The voltage readout on a digital ammeter/voltmeter on the avionics side of
the bus bar shows 12.6 volts at idle and 13.0 volts at 1500 RPM.=A0 The
voltage readout on the JPI 700 at the same time is 13.0 volts at idle and
13.4 volts at 1500 RPM.=A0 At 1500 RPM with ALL of the switches turned on=20is
12.1 volts on the avionics side and 12.4 on the JPI 700.=A0 The ammeter under
a full load shows about 0.0 amps plus or MINUS 0.2 amps.
Now, had this been the first time this has happened I'd say more trouble
shooting is called for.=A0 However.=A0 I installed an overhauled (from
AVIALL) alternator and Zeftronics controller on a Tiger about a year ago and
his JPI 700 showed a consistant 12.6 to 13.2 volts under most conditions.=A0
I did the usual and cleaned the grounds, replaced the Master Switch, and
cleaned all connections.=A0 Still no change.=A0 The owner decided to take the
plane and if there were any problems with the battery not staying charged
he'd get back to me.=A0 So far, the battery has stayed charged.=A0
Can the voltage be set on the alternator controllers?=A0 Is there something
else I should be looking at or for?
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
Cheers,
I was not successful with Franklin Brass 6424, but suggest US$24
item. It's Franklin Brass Search for item #SF6318. There are 4 lengths, but
suppose the shortest suffices..............
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Fw: SS Grab bar find |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: SS Grab bar find
> Cheers,
> I followed the trail on Masco without luck, but Franklin>
Brass came up with the following item . Note: the URL is quite long and must
be all in one line to> acquire. OR just search FB for item #SF6318.
>
http://media.doitbest.com/products/438833.gifhttp://media.doitbest.com/produ
cts/438833.gif
>
> Heavy-Duty Grab Bar Franklin Brass
> Safety-first, stainless steel 1-1/2" diameter welded bars. Tested to
> withstand 1000 lb. pull when securely installed. Easy-to-install,
> instructions and screws included
> No. SF6318: 1-1/2" x 18" long US$24
> That might work --
> Ferg
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net> |
| Subject: | Looking for an EGT selector switch |
I'm looking for a source for a rotary EGT/CHT selector switch.
Any suggestions?
Sam Hoskins
Quickie Q-200
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for an EGT selector switch |
In a message dated 3/30/03 9:03:53 AM Central Standard Time,
shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net writes:
> I'm looking for a source for a rotary EGT/CHT selector switch.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Sam Hoskins
> Quickie Q-200
>
Good Morning Sam,
I am reasonably confident that Alcor can still supply such a switch. I
wonder, though, why you would want one?
Units which contain the capability of allowing a pilot to monitor all data at
the same time are readily available from JPI, Electronics International,
Insight and many others.
I had the Alcor switch and single gauge arrangement some years ago. It was
replaced by a single instrument which provides more capability and takes less
panel space. On top of that, it weighs less!
Why don't you check the availability of new product? You might find that you
don't want that switch at all.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for an EGT selector switch |
Sam Hoskins wrote:
>
>I'm looking for a source for a rotary EGT/CHT selector switch.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Sam Hoskins
>Quickie Q-200
>
>
I recently bought one of the Westach switches available from 'Spruce. It
seems to be working well for me.
Matt-
N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | three terminal contactor |
>Bob
>
>I wonder if you can help. I recently purchased a jabiru 2200 engine which
>came with a few electrical items. I think one is a battery contactor but
>I'm not sure. It looks like your 12V, Continuous Duty, 4-Terminal
>Contactors but instead of 4 terminals it has 3 (2 large terminals one
>marked BAT, and the 3rd is a smaller terminal). Tne unit is marked W-R/RBM
>71-109225 - 2 coil 6VDC INT.
I am mystified by the "2 coil, 6vdc int" marking.
The device is made by White-Rogers division of
Stancor. You can see similar devices at
http://www.stancor.com/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf
The part number suggests this is a special device
made to specifications different from their
catalog items. Cessna used to purchase similarly
customized items from the same company years ago
wherein part numbers stamped on the product
shell were not to be found in the catalog in
spite of identical appearance to other products.
Since this was supplied with your engine, I suspect
it is intended to be used as a STARTER contactor.
This may explain the "int" portion of the marking.
It also may be a 6V rated device and intended by
Jabiru to be used in starter service and deliberately
over driven to achieve more positive closure of
the contacts.
Use your ohmmeter to measure resistance of the
coil and find out where other end is connected.
I suspect you'll find that continuity exists
between small terminal and the contactor's metal
case. If it's a 6v unit, the coil resistance is
probably 1 ohm or less. Make this measurement
and get back to me.
If you don't find continuity between small terminal
and case, then look for continuity between small
terminal and BAT terminal.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)tenforward.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
Comments in context.
> >I have had smoke in the cockpit in certificated acft a couple of times. A
> >master breaker saved my butt once as it was in IFR.
>
> what's a "master breaker"?
In this case it was the master power switch which opened the battery
contactor. Perhaps not precise words but the point was everything off in one
stroke :-)
>
> > Turned out to be COM #2.
> >breaker never opened as short was current limited and had burned internal
> >to radio. The other case was the same but could have continued with
master
> >off if needed.
>
>
> >Had I not has a manually openable CB I am not sure how things would have
> >turned out. So its not just a CB but if you have one be sure you can pull
it
> >open.
>
> I'm surprised that the on/off switch for a radio didn't offer
> a disconnect for everything powered within the radio.
No way to know for sure what or where the electrical smoke was comming from.
It smelled like electrical and powering off everything stopped it. Not all
electrical equipment is controlled by a switch (at least in that acft)
As for using the individual on off switches did not cover enerything as the
intercom had none as well as some other instruments and there was no way to
know where the problem was. But the use of the pull to open CB was better in
my mind as it included intercom and also the wiring to the radios etc.
My approach was fewer steps to find the problem while flying the aircraft.
That approach would not have been an option in many acft as the use of the
lower cost CB with no pull open feature (have a flush button). Fuses would
have been worse and what would you do if they were not crew accessable????
I was over the mountains and planned destination and alternates were near
minimums. This was years ago and no such thing as GPS. Thus an alternate
like compass heading etc would work well.
>
> >What I did was to pull the master and then each individual CB. reset
master
> >and close others one at a time until source of smoke was found. No
radio/nav
> >was not really an option in IFR.
> >
> >However all the cases of crashes etc from having resetable CB is from the
> >pilots or crews lack of the first rule of flight. FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST
AND
> >ALWAYS.
> >
> >Many pilots allow a problem to distract them and the result is usually
very
> >bad. A simple problem crashed the acft because of pilot distraction.
> >
> >Thus I feel in most cases Bob is right. Design your acft so you can keep
> >going with no inflight trouble shooting needed.
>
> I think Dave's issue was whether or not to offer breakers
> that can be re-closed . . . for example, most production SE Cessnas
> have push-only breakers. If one can justify putting those breakers
> out of reach -or- replacing with no-flight-fiddling fuses, are
> risks to the outcome of flight increased? I would suggest
> that risks are decreased due to reduced pilot distraction as
> long as one has a plan-B alternative for the most necessary
> equipment items.
While I agree that pilot distractions in MOST cases are best not allowed its
not always the best case.
I do not see any alternative to trouble shooting with an electrical fire
somewhere in the cockpit where some electrical components are needed for
safe flight. Thus the use of Push-only CB is not something I would ever use.
Letting it burn and hoping it will burn out sure is not one I like.
Flying full IFR with no way to communicate and no way to descend safely into
IFR even at your destination is also not one I like.
My point is one solution does not fit all acft/pilot situations.
If the fire/short etc does not open the CB or fuse one needs some
alternative to letting it burn.
In any event we can have more alternative plan "B"'s today and with
experimental acft and actually impliment them.
My expriences were with certificated acft where you take what they provide.
If the decision is to have CB then I would never have the only push closed
type. This is a different issue than "to have "or "not to have" CB or fuses
and "inflight or not inflight accessable".
I do agree that most cases having something to fiddle with in flight is
likely to be worse than having nothing to fiddle with so pilot distractions
are minimized. Depends on pilot training and discipline.
Paul
Former USAF trained pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 10443 Runyan |
>
>Comments/Questions: Bob- I am installing a dimmer that I bought from B&C.
>The serial number is
>RU6NAYSD252A. May I assume that this is Revision A that is referenced in
>the instructions? As you know, I need to know which revision it is so that
>I can install the pins properly.
>Thanks,
>David Runyan
The number you quoted is the part number for the
potentiometer that controls dimmer electronics. The
dimmer assembly should have a number on it like
DIM15-14A. The "A" indicates the later version.
Further, the etched circuit board for the dimmer
has a number on it. 9013-300-1 or 9013-304-1.
The -304 part is the later version.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for an EGT selector switch |
>
>
>I'm looking for a source for a rotary EGT/CHT selector switch.
>
>Any suggestions?
If you don't find an attractive off-the-shelf version,
you can build it using a two-pole rotary switch and
d-sub connectors and a small project box. You need to
observe the rules for wiring thermocouples as outlined
in Figure 14-7 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf
(note error in cross-over connections of wires to
the switch positions - but this figure illustrates
the required technique.)
You can wire your switch box totally from copper
wire inside . . . This DOES generate all kinds of
new, strange and potentially deleterious thermocouples
but they occur in pairs and cancel each other out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net> |
| Subject: | Looking for an EGT selector switch |
O'l Bob
I am retrofitting my Q-200 but do not want to fabricate a new instrument
panel. Last year at OSH I looked around and all the new hi-tech goodies
would force a major (reads: new) reconfiguration of the panel.
I am willing to compromise for a cheap, down and dirty retrofit. The only
box I might consider would have to fit in the standard 3 1/2" hole and show
EGT/CHT/Oil press and oil temp (and cost less than $500). These duties are
presently handled by my old Westach Quad gauge.
Sam Hoskins
Quickie Q-200
1,350 hours and across the USA in one day.
Good Morning Sam,
I am reasonably confident that Alcor can still supply such a switch. I
wonder, though, why you would want one?
Units which contain the capability of allowing a pilot to monitor all data
at
the same time are readily available from JPI, Electronics International,
Insight and many others.
I had the Alcor switch and single gauge arrangement some years ago. It was
replaced by a single instrument which provides more capability and takes
less
panel space. On top of that, it weighs less!
Why don't you check the availability of new product? You might find that
you
don't want that switch at all.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for an EGT selector switch |
Contact Rocky Mountain Instruments http://www.rkymtn.com/
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for an EGT selector switch
>
> I'm looking for a source for a rotary EGT/CHT selector switch.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Sam Hoskins
> Quickie Q-200
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: question on alternators/controllers |
>
>I Just finished the installation of an overhauled alternator (Aeroelectrics)
>and new Zeftronics alternaor controller in a Piper PA-24-250
>Comanche.=A0 =20I
>replaced all of the the wires firewall forward.=A0 New ground wires.=A0
>Dedicated ground wire from the alternator to the alternator controller.=A0
>=20 On
>engine start, the ammeter goes up like expected then decreases as
>expected.=A0
> The voltage readout on a digital ammeter/voltmeter on the avionics side of
>the bus bar shows 12.6 volts at idle and 13.0 volts at 1500 RPM.=A0 The
>voltage readout on the JPI 700 at the same time is 13.0 volts at idle and
>13.4 volts at 1500 RPM.=A0 At 1500 RPM with ALL of the switches turned
>on=20is
>12.1 volts on the avionics side and 12.4 on the JPI 700.=A0 The ammeter
>under
>a full load shows about 0.0 amps plus or MINUS 0.2 amps.
>
> Now, had this been the first time this has happened I'd say more trouble
>shooting is called for.=A0 However.=A0 I installed an overhauled (from
>AVIALL) alternator and Zeftronics controller on a Tiger about a year ago and
>his JPI 700 showed a consistant 12.6 to 13.2 volts under most conditions.=A0
>I did the usual and cleaned the grounds, replaced the Master Switch, and
>cleaned all connections.=A0 Still no change.=A0 The owner decided to
>take the
>plane and if there were any problems with the battery not staying charged
>he'd get back to me.=A0 So far, the battery has stayed charged.=A0
>
>Can the voltage be set on the alternator controllers?=A0 Is there something
>else I should be looking at or for?
Your battery may be cranking the engine but I'd guess that it's
not getting fully charged. There are two voltage readings that
you need to get. First is right across the battery terminals
while the alternator is running, engine 1500 or more and all
electrical stuff turned off. Also, voltage right at the
bus supply input to the regulator.
A more appropriate voltage level for your panel instrument
readings is 14.0 to 14.5 volts with everything running.
See if your regulator has a screwdriver adjustment . . . it
may be hidden under a plug button or some kind of seal over
a hole. A phone call to the manufacturer of your regulator
should let you find out if the model you have is adjustable.
You might ask them what the factory set-point is for their
regulators. It should be on the order of 14.2 volts.
Bob . . .
>Gary
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Filter inductor question |
Hi Bob,
In your book, chapter 16 you propose a filter circuit for hand-held
accessories.
I'm trying to replicate a single channel version.
The inductor designation mentions only the Radio Shack p/n 270-030.
Could you translate that into inductor caracteristics to allow me to
purchase an equivalent from a 'Non-Shack' supplier ?
Thanks in advance.
By the way, which bus would you suggest to feed this beast from ? Our
circuit is single alternator, dual battery with e-bus and two battery
busses.
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Filter inductor question |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>In your book, chapter 16 you propose a filter circuit for hand-held
>accessories.
>I'm trying to replicate a single channel version.
>The inductor designation mentions only the Radio Shack p/n 270-030.
>Could you translate that into inductor caracteristics to allow me to
>purchase an equivalent from a 'Non-Shack' supplier ?
>Thanks in advance.
I measured one on the bench and it comes out to about 1 Millihenry
and is wound with 22AWG wire which gives it a current rating on the
order of 2A or so.
>By the way, which bus would you suggest to feed this beast from ? Our
>circuit is single alternator, dual battery with e-bus and two battery
>busses.
Why not a 2A fuse on the battery bus? Makes the hand held
operable with everything else off for whatever reason.
Of course, you don't want to walk away leaving the hand
held turned on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Systems |
>
> I find no compelling reason to discourage anyone
> from taking advantage of modern, internally
> regulated alternators when fitted with a means
> for containing an overvoltage event. These
> alternators are demonstrably better products
> than those flying most certified ships today.
> Many OBAM aircraft owners have elected to run
> one-wire alternators without ov protection.
> The odds of a trouble free operation over the
> lifetime of the airplane are very much in their
> favor.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Once again I want to thank you for all your time you spend explaining the
finer details of the electrical systems. Not only are you VERY sharp in the
field you are willing to take time to help us all out in understanding the
workings of our charging systems. I hope we meet one day at a fly in because
you are getting a nice dinner paid for by me. Thanks again. Ben Haas. N801BH.
Jackson Hole WY.
. . . don't go to many fly-ins but Dee and I would sure like
to do a weekend seminar in your neck of the woods. Can
we perhaps get 15-20 folks together for a weekend of
airplane-speak?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brass hardware |
>
> >
> > What is your experience with using brass studs for conducting electrical
> > current? My question is about potential corrosion problems. Does the
> > stud need to be plated or is unplated acceptable?
>
>Would not some battery terminal grease minimize this problem? I used some
>red-colored "battery
>terminal" spray (don't recall specific product) several years ago on lawn
>mower, tractor & car and
>it seems to be holding up very well.
gukems and goos are okay for the individual user
who wants to add some extra protection
for what's perceived to be marginal corrosion
resistance . . . Dave is looking at a manufacturing
environment for conformed products that go into
certified aircraft. We get into enough trouble
trying to keep a good grip on goos that HAVE to
go into a product like greases, oils and
sealants. It's generally considered good design
to avoid process sensitive additives with control
of materials and finishes as much as possible.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
>
>
>Perhaps the nuisance tripping situations I'm thinking of shouldn't really be
>called nuisance tripping. Some of the failure modes I'm thinking of are
>flap systems that get out of rig and allow the motor to drive to a hard
>mechanical stop and pop the breaker. Reversing the direction and resetting
>the breaker gets you back into business where a fuse wouldn't. I was told
>by a pilot in on the discussion that he is flying a Cheyenne with the same
>sort of problem with a deicing flap of some sort. The group I'm part of
>would like to tell the world of certified airframers that we are the answer
>to their electrical needs. From power generation, to complete distribution.
>Some customers may not give us much freedom in redesigning the individual
>systems, so we have to accomodate the quirks of the existing pieces of the
>system as best we can. One of those quirks may be a failure mode where the
>system could be recovered if the circuit protection device could be reset.
Hmmmm . . . when you're obligated to accommodate the
airframe's idiosyncratic tendencies, you're sorta stuck.
When you're also obligated to accommodate traditional
dogma in systems design and crew training, the rut gets
deeper.
>The response I got to that argument when I made it was that even if we are
>only able to recover the system 1% of the times we reset the breaker, we
>need to do it for the 1% of times because the assumption is that there is no
>downside to the ability of being able to reset. This was with the premise
>that cost and panel space were not a problem. If there was an additional
>argument, such as safety, that could be made against resetting, it would go
>a long way. The other part of the equation is that from a business
>perspective, it may be easier to win over more potential customers if we
>offered resettable circuit protection than if we have to go through this
>same argument and convincing process with each customer.
When you buy an Eclipse, there are no breakers in the
cockpit. They use RCCB's out the wazoo all controlled by
the systems management computer. I am skeptical of the
value received after you consider the costs of the latest
and greatest components driven from touch-screen commanded
computers all wrapped up in DO-178 albatrosses . . .
Sometimes the best way to drive a nail is with a hammer.
>It's very appealing to some to be able to offer a big "WOW" factor with
>systems involving data busses that control and monitor everything, flat
>screen control and warning panels that can display information in many
>colors and allow you to control anything at the touch of a button. How can
>a fuse and switch be "state of the art"?
>
>The Cheyenne pilot I mentioned earlier said that you won't be able to get
>pilots to give up the ability to do troubleshooting. That's why they go to
>flight safety training and all that.
They're certainly welcome to finish out their careers
with the cockpits they're comfortable with. Since they
have very little input to the design effort and understand
it even less, there will undoubtedly always be a market
for airplanes with the LearJet/KingAir look when it comes
to systems management.
Eclipse is going the right direction by taking lots of
gizmos out of the cockpit but I think they're killing ants
with a howitzer that shoots very expensive ammo (costs
a lot to build, buy and maintain). All they REALLY
needed to do was turn a few things on and off.
Given that no-breaker-trip failures outnumber breaker-
trip failures by as much as 100:1, I think they've traded
basic reliability and low cost of ownership for a lot
of gee-whiz.
What you're facing as a supplier is the same thing I'm
seeing from inside the house . . . the cost of truly
updating an existing airplane is out of the question
and even new designs are heavily influenced by the
equivalence of political correctness. After all, our
pilots spent weeks and $thousands$ for those schools,
it's nearly impossible to convince them that one really
CAN build failure tolerant systems that don't need -
and should not be fiddled with in flight.
Bottom line is we gotta to keep the folks who write
checks for our airplanes happy . . . they don't
need to be knowledgeable, just happy. If you're
trying to sell new ideas onto existing machines,
you pretty much have take them as they sit, warts
and all.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for an EGT selector switch |
I got the one vans sells and it's great - i thought it was pricey but then realized
it came with the probes as well -and extensions also (I think the extensions
were in there as well).
Matt Prather
Sam Hoskins wrote:
>
>I'm looking for a source for a rotary EGT/CHT selector switch.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Sam Hoskins
>Quickie Q-200
>
>
I recently bought one of the Westach switches available from 'Spruce. It
seems to be working well for me.
Matt-
N34RD
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Electrical System Gremlin |
Just finished up all the Electrics on my RV6-A in the Hanger (garage) out back
and have a small Gremlin. Everything works including transmit and receiving on
both Comm's.
Symptoms are as follows after turning on the Master:
1) About a 15 Amp. discharge shown on the Amp. Gauge with
only the Oil Pressure Light and BC Regulator Charge light activated?
2) Everything works with no more discharge shown no matter
how many things are brought online?
3) Now it gets interesting........If I transmit on either
radio the following occurs:
a) CHT & EXT Gauges dance like crazy!
b) Amp Gauge goes Nuts!
c) Flap & Trim Indicators leds dance!
d) Fuel gauges advance very slightly even though the
wings and thus indicators are not hooked up?
The airport which is 3 miles away says I am transmitting crystal
clear even from inside my garage with a belly antenna?!?
Any suggestions of where to start looking would be appreciated as I don't
want to put the forward skin down till I get this fixed.
Tom in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Systems |
I'll go.
Matt-
N34RD
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >
> > I find no compelling reason to discourage anyone
> > from taking advantage of modern, internally
> > regulated alternators when fitted with a means
> > for containing an overvoltage event. These
> > alternators are demonstrably better products
> > than those flying most certified ships today.
> > Many OBAM aircraft owners have elected to run
> > one-wire alternators without ov protection.
> > The odds of a trouble free operation over the
> > lifetime of the airplane are very much in their
> > favor.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>Once again I want to thank you for all your time you spend explaining the
>finer details of the electrical systems. Not only are you VERY sharp in the
>field you are willing to take time to help us all out in understanding the
>workings of our charging systems. I hope we meet one day at a fly in because
>you are getting a nice dinner paid for by me. Thanks again. Ben Haas. N801BH.
>Jackson Hole WY.
>
> . . . don't go to many fly-ins but Dee and I would sure like
> to do a weekend seminar in your neck of the woods. Can
> we perhaps get 15-20 folks together for a weekend of
> airplane-speak?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Resetting C/Bs |
>--
> When you buy an Eclipse, there are no breakers in the
> cockpit. They use RCCB's out the wazoo all controlled by
> the systems management computer. I am skeptical of the
> value received after you consider the costs of the latest
> and greatest components driven from touch-screen commanded
> computers all wrapped up in DO-178 albatrosses . . .
>
> Sometimes the best way to drive a nail is with a hammer.
My old roomate was working on the prototype C-130-J. They had touch screen
virtual breakers for everything in the airplane.
Including the touch screen.
(step one: remove the master hard drive for the system...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Weekend seminars |
. . . don't go to many fly-ins but Dee and I would sure like
to do a weekend seminar in your neck of the woods. Can
we perhaps get 15-20 folks together for a weekend of
airplane-speak?
Bob . . .
I found it very worthwhile and enjoyable to travel from Seattle to Ft. Worth
last weekend to attend Bob's seminar. Of course in Jackson Hole you won't
be able to have the seminar in George & Becki Orndorf's hanger with eight
RV's under construction, from just started to just flown for the first time.
The donuts might not be as good as from that little donut shop in Justin,
but you could probably bring a cowboy hat home. Does anyone know how to put
noise canceling headphones on a cowboy hat?
Terry
RV-8A Seattle. Ready to start wiring.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
Question about wiring Ray Allen trim servos. I notice that diagrams at the Connection
and Ray Allen call for two breakers (or fuses) for each trim system: one
for the wire supplying power to the servo, and one for the wire that powers
the LED indicator. That gives six breakers for a three axis trim system. Is
there any reason not to run the servo and the indicator off the same breaker
for each system to economize on the number of breakers?
Thanks,
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Question about wiring Ray Allen trim servos. I notice that diagrams at
>the Connection and Ray Allen call for two breakers (or fuses) for each
>trim system: one for the wire supplying power to the servo, and one for
>the wire that powers the LED indicator. That gives six breakers for a
>three axis trim system. Is there any reason not to run the servo and the
>indicator off the same breaker for each system to economize on the number
>of breakers?
Purists like to have separate supplies for each system
such that faults which open circuit protection for one
system doesn't take down other systems. To the degree
that you're willing to be less than pure, wire as you
see fit. If you're using fuseblocks, then having lots
of protected circuits becomes less of an issue for both
expense and panel space.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Pflanzer <F1Rocket(at)comcast.net> |
I think the reason is to drive the trim motors off of the essential bus
and the indicators off of the main bus, to conserve electrons in
an "essentail bus" situation. It is okay to drive them all off of the
same bus feed if you chose to do it that way.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/f1rocket/
----- Original Message -----
From: danobrien(at)cox.net
Date: Monday, March 31, 2003 8:05 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Wiring
>
> Question about wiring Ray Allen trim servos. I notice that
> diagrams at the Connection and Ray Allen call for two breakers (or
> fuses) for each trim system: one for the wire supplying power to
> the servo, and one for the wire that powers the LED indicator.
> That gives six breakers for a three axis trim system. Is there
> any reason not to run the servo and the indicator off the same
> breaker for each system to economize on the number of breakers?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
>
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= !! NEWish !!
> _-
>
======================================================================_-
= List Related Information
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 10446 Prichard |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Devon Prichard (dsprichard(at)mindspring.com) on Sunday, March 30, 2003 at
>22:08:43
>
>Sunday, March 30, 2003
>
>Devon Prichard
>
>,
>Email: dsprichard(at)mindspring.com
>Comments/Questions: Bob, I've skimmed thru your electrics book and enjoyed
>it a lot. One puzzler for me is, do we really need a battery contactor?
>The main function I can imagine it doing is preventing parasitic loads
>from draining the battery during long-term disuse. But an unintended
>inflight disconnect would be ugly. Seems like the long term parking
>problem would be better addressed with a plain ol' knife switch. Cars
>don't have battery contactors/relays.
You need a battery switch located as close to the battery
as possible so that in the event of an inevitable but unplanned
arrival with the ground, you can get as much of ship's wiring
"cold" as possible. Whether you do this with a contactor or
a switch is your choice. An old Tri-Pacer I used to fly
had a battery master switch for a battery mounted under
the right front seat.
Now, if you're considering a compromise of convenience
and control due to concern about contactor reliability,
keep in mind that one of two reasons for the e-bus was
to assist in dealing comfortably with a contactor failure.
Consider also that a simple battery master switch leaves
open the possibility of leaving an alternator on line with
the battery off line . . . an unpredictable and sometimes
unhappy condition.
Contactor failure is rare. I wouldn't do a contactor-less
battery master switch in my airplane.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: E-mail Contact Request |
>Bob,
>
> Thanks for the reply. The only additional question I have is what
>am I looking for, as the pilot, for failure states on the alternator.
>Obviously, no output is one. Then there would be higher than normal
>output. Any others? Thanks.
Alternators FAIL, and they go into over voltage which is
caught by an ov protection system and converted
to a FAILed condition. So basically, you have either a
working alternator or you don't . . . no special conditions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
They recommend a 1A fuse for the indicator and an 1A
fuse for the servo. I checked how much current these
devices are taking and elected to use a single 1A fuse
for both of them.
--- danobrien(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
> Question about wiring Ray Allen trim servos. I
> notice that diagrams at the Connection and Ray Allen
> call for two breakers (or fuses) for each trim
> system: one for the wire supplying power to the
> servo, and one for the wire that powers the LED
> indicator. That gives six breakers for a three axis
> trim system. Is there any reason not to run the
> servo and the indicator off the same breaker for
> each system to economize on the number of breakers?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
http://platinum.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeEasley(at)aol.com |
I asked Mac the same question. They recommend the indicators be on the
avionics bus and the trim be on the main bus. I guess the indicators are
"sensitive to electrical spikes, etc." That's why you end up with one fuse
for each.
I don't want to start the whole arguement over the avionics bus, so please
don't go there. I don't know the answer to the question of whether the
indicators can handle whatever little gremlins exist on the main bus during
starting. We already know the avionics can, but only Mac could answer the
question about their indicators. It could be a "just in case" deal or maybe
a bunch of indicators have failed in the past.
Mac also told me that there's no reason to put each trim circuit on a
separate breaker/fuse since you only use one trim motor at a time and they
draw such little current you wouldn't trip the circuit if you ran two motors
at once anyway.
Mike Easley
Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>I asked Mac the same question. They recommend the indicators be on the
>avionics bus and the trim be on the main bus. I guess the indicators are
>"sensitive to electrical spikes, etc." That's why you end up with one fuse
>for each.
BS . . . their indicators are not sensitive to any "spike"
your airplane is going to generate.
>I don't want to start the whole arguement over the avionics bus, so please
>don't go there. I don't know the answer to the question of whether the
>indicators can handle whatever little gremlins exist on the main bus during
>starting. We already know the avionics can, but only Mac could answer the
>question about their indicators. It could be a "just in case" deal or maybe
>a bunch of indicators have failed in the past.
I've had their indicators apart . . . any concerns they might
express are figments of their imagination and/or manifestations
of their lack of understanding about the machines for which
they design products.
>Mac also told me that there's no reason to put each trim circuit on a
>separate breaker/fuse since you only use one trim motor at a time and they
>draw such little current you wouldn't trip the circuit if you ran two motors
>at once anyway.
This totally misses the point. It's not a matter of how
much current their product draws . . . it's a choice about
allowing single FAILURE in any one system to take down
more than the single system.
Keep in mind, these guys are black box designers. They
may or may not be pilots. If they are pilots, they are
undoubtedly tainted by decades of dogma. YOU are the system
designer and the pilot who will have to fly it. It's up
to you to decide the rational for whether you provide
independent power sources for each product in the airplane
or choose to pile numerous devices on a single protected
feed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
Bob:
If I remember correctly you put the landing light on the Main buss - rather than
on the E-bus. Wouldn't it be good to be able to turn it on when landing at
night?? If it appeared to be killing my bat. then I could flip it off again and
land without it - but if I had enough juise in the bat. why not make it so I
could use it??
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au> |
| Subject: | Irrecom question. |
HI,
I am looking to build a intercom that will do the following with a
Microair 760 radio 4 place plane
I have some reasonable electrical experience, I am just liiking for a
design.
1 VOX as the radio is a hot mike setup and I want to save some extra
noise.
2 various inputs, some are both in and out and some are only inputs
Both way would be
Sat phone
CDMA phone
Handheld com
UHF radio
And input only would be
Tpas
CD player
Alt alert (from transponder)
And maybe a master caution alarm
Thanks
Ian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light - on e-buss or main |
buss???
>
>
>Bob:
>
>If I remember correctly you put the landing light on the Main buss -
>rather than on the E-bus. Wouldn't it be good to be able to turn it on
>when landing at night?? If it appeared to be killing my bat. then I could
>flip it off again and land without it - but if I had enough juise in the
>bat. why not make it so I could use it??
E stands for "endurance" . . . these are the things needed
to get you to airport-in-sight, battery-only after an alternator
failure. Once the airport is in sight -AND- you are cleared to
land, turn the master back on and use whatever battery you have
left to increase your level of comfort for approach and landing.
If you don't have enough battery left, then it shouldn't matter
by this time in the flight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I would put the landing light onto the main bus because it will only be
used during the final portions of the approach, by which time the main
bus can be re-lit. The battery WILL have the capacity to power
everything you need for the few minutes that you are on approach
because you designed your airplane to have more battery than gasoline,
right?
The e(ndurance)-bus is designed to have only the minimum equipment
required for long distance flight on your remaining power source. The landing
light doesn't fit into the category of things that are needed for
endurance. The
goal of the e-bus is to turn off everything but the things required to
keep the
wings upright, stay on course, and be able to tell someone about it.
Further, since the e-bus (in the architectures I have been looking at, like
z-11) is fed by a diode, the more power you run through it, the more power
it dissipates. This might be a minor issue, but I think its worth
considering.
Once you have a 8A (100W) light turned on, you are burning an additional
4.8W (8A*0.6V) just running it through the diode. I think 4W will keep
the main
bus contactor closed.
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> Bob:
>
> If I remember correctly you put the landing light on the Main buss -
> rather than on the E-bus. Wouldn't it be good to be able to turn it on
> when landing at night?? If it appeared to be killing my bat. then I
> could flip it off again and land without it - but if I had enough juise
> in the bat. why not make it so I could use it??
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Irrecom question. |
Check out http://www.rst-engr.com/ for an audio panel kit with intercom for
US$278.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airfarame complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ian Scott
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Irrecom question.
HI,
I am looking to build a intercom that will do the following with a
Microair 760 radio 4 place plane
I have some reasonable electrical experience, I am just liiking for a
design.
1 VOX as the radio is a hot mike setup and I want to save some extra
noise.
2 various inputs, some are both in and out and some are only inputs
Both way would be
Sat phone
CDMA phone
Handheld com
UHF radio
And input only would be
Tpas
CD player
Alt alert (from transponder)
And maybe a master caution alarm
Thanks
Ian
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Limited Power Circuits/Fault Detection-Interruption |
Hello Bob,
I like your comment of: "Sometimes the best way to hit a nail is with a
hammer!"
BUT....
Do you know of any move to design aircraft circuits to be either "power
limited" or "fault detection-interruptable" instead of "Max current limited"
as a protection against smoke in the cockpit? Is sizing load
current/wire/fuse/breaker combinations all that should be considered? Would
fault detection prior to a smoke event be practical at all to accomplish?
Would you guess that such technology will turn out to be another nuisance
trip merry-go-round?
Swissair's 1998 flight 111 (MD-11) crash was found to be caused by "sparks"
from "faulty wiring" that ignited "flammable insulation" above the cockpit.
Obviously the circuit of cause was sized large enough to provide enough power
to its load resistances and short or (lower resistance) circuit current
limitation was inadequate to prevent a fire.
I guess removing the "flammable insulation" from the design is the first and
most important fix but what about a design that will not allow a "fault" to
occur that will not also cause the circuit to open? Supply/return leg
current transducers looking for equal readings before deciding to shut the
juice off? Micro smoke detectors every few inches? Too much variation from
KISS here?
How is Dee healing these days?
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net> |
| Subject: | Off Topic - Mayor Daley kills Meigs Field in night |
time raid.
MERE WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS MY DISGUST REGARDING THIS ACT OF TERRORISM.
Tribune staff reports
Saying he acted out of concern for public safety and desire to spare
citizens "months and maybe years" of contentious debate, Mayor Richard Daley
today defended his decision to close Meigs Field and have its runway torn up
in the dark of night.
"We have done this to protect the millions of people who live, work and
visit downtown Chicago in these very uncertain times," Daley said at a City
Hall news conference after construction equipment early this morning put
Meigs out of commission.
"The safety of the entire city has to take precedence over the wishes of a
handful of private pilots and business people," the mayor said.
But Daley, who has long sought to close Meigs and replace it with a park and
nature preserve, said the city had received no specific threat about a
possible terrorist attack involving a private aircraft.
About 11 p.m. Sunday, several backhoes, large trucks carrying floodlights,
generators and other equipment arrived at the airport and started working on
the north-to-south runway. Chicago police barred access to the field for
anyone else.
At dawn, the view from atop the Adler Planetarium showed a series of large,
signs marked either end of the runway. The action came without public
notice.
Asked why the city took the action without warning, Daley said: "To do this
any other way would have been needlessly contentious and jeopardized public
safety and prolonged concerns and anxiety among Chicagoans for months and
maybe years."
The city has operated Meigs under a month-to-month lease with the Chicago
Park District. The park district has terminated the lease, so the city had
no choice but to close the airport, city officials said.
Daley said the March 22 federal implementation of a no-fly zone over the
city was "simply not enough" to ensure the safety of the public.
That rule prohibited small aircraft from flying within 3,000 feet of the
ground over downtown and much of the North Side, but allowed continued
access to Meigs.
But Daley complained that a temporary flight restriction could be rescinded
at any time.
"More important, it does not address the problem that occurs every day as
aircraft approach Meigs Field, with a few hundred yards and only a few
seconds' flight time from out tallest buildings."
The mayor also expressed concern for the safety of "hundreds of thousands of
people" at city festivals, museums and beaches within range of planes at
Meigs. "With a sudden turn, they can cause a terrible tragedy downtown or in
our crowded parks."
Daley promised that, if the Federal Aviation Administration doesn't let
owners of 16 planes stranded at Meigs use a still-intact taxiway for
takeoff, the city will reimburse them for removal of their craft by other
means.
Steve Whitney, former president of Friends of Meigs Field, criticized the
city's use of national security as justification for closing the airport.
Whitney said medical and air-sea rescue aircraft use Meigs, which he
contended could also be used by emergency aircraft following a downtown
disaster.
"It makes absolutely no sense from any standpoint, particularly for homeland
security, to close Meigs Field," Whitney said.
At a City Hall press conference after Daley spoke, Whitney described the
mayor's action as "a land grab" and "an abuse of power." He said that his
organization would study possible legal action.
"We are absolutely shocked and dismayed," said Phil Boyer, president of the
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, another organization that has fought
Meigs' closing.
"Mayor Daley has no honor and his word has no value," Boyer said. "The
sneaky way he did this shows that he knows it was wrong."
But Boyer and an FAA spokesman conceded that the city appeared to have the
legal right to close Meigs.
"The city can do this because Meigs is an unobligated airport," said the
FAA's Tony Molinaro. About three years ago, Chicago repaid federal grant
funds that had been used to improve Meigs, he said.
The closure did not violate FAA regulations, and the city had the authority
to issue a formal Notice to Airmen notifying pilots of the closed runway,
Molinaro said. An official with the Chicago Department of Aviation said the
notice was issued at 3:02 a.m.
"We at the FAA were concerned to learn this morning of the decision to close
Meigs Field, and we have heard already from members of the general aviation
community, and we share their concern," Molinaro said.
"We feel that removing any centrally located airport such as Meigs from the
national airspace system only diminishes capacity and puts added pressure on
O'Hare and Midway airports.''
Last year, Meigs handled 32,000 takeoffs and landings.
Separately, a spokeswoman for Gov. Rod Blagojevich said the governor also
was not told of Daley's plans, but supported the mayor's decision to close
Meigs as a matter of public safety.
Daley originally intended to close the airport in February 2002 and turn it
into a park and nature preserve, but he held off doing so to win then-Gov.
George Ryan's support for federal legislation backing the $6.6 billion
expansion of O'Hare International Airport.
Under terms of a deal reached with Ryan in December 2001, Daley agreed to
keep the lakefront airport open until Jan. 1, 2026, although Meigs could
have been closed anytime after Jan. 1, 2006, by a vote of the General
Assembly.
The deal was supposed to have been solidified in federal legislation
endorsing the O'Hare expansion.
But U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, earlier this month declared
the federal bill dead because of opposition from his Republican counterpart,
U.S. Sen. Peter Fitzgerald.
Asked about that deal at today's news conference, Daley replied, "There is
no agreement whatsoever."
"The agreement is not in existence. There's no federal legislation," Daley
said.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Gremlin |
Tom,
Read Bob's book and then wire your airplane, not in reverse order.
Jim
>
> Just finished up all the Electrics on my RV6-A in the Hanger (garage) out
back and have a small Gremlin. Everything works including transmit and
receiving on both Comm's.
> Symptoms are as follows after turning on the Master:
> 1) About a 15 Amp. discharge shown on the Amp. Gauge
with only the Oil Pressure Light and BC Regulator Charge light activated?
> 2) Everything works with no more discharge shown no
matter how many things are brought online?
> 3) Now it gets interesting........If I transmit on
either radio the following occurs:
> a) CHT & EXT Gauges dance like crazy!
> b) Amp Gauge goes Nuts!
> c) Flap & Trim Indicators leds dance!
> d) Fuel gauges advance very slightly even though
the wings and thus indicators are not hooked up?
> The airport which is 3 miles away says I am transmitting
crystal clear even from inside my garage with a belly antenna?!?
> Any suggestions of where to start looking would be appreciated as I
don't want to put the forward skin down till I get this fixed.
>
Tom in Ohio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Irrecom question. |
Check out :
http://www.mcp.com.au/xcom760/comparison.html
2 1/4" radio with more power than the microair and 4 place intercom
built in.
Ed Holyoke
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 1:54 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Irrecom question.
>
> ef.com>
>
> Check out http://www.rst-engr.com/ for an audio panel kit with
intercom
> for
> US$278.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
> Airfarame complete
> Irvine, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ian
> Scott
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Irrecom question.
>
>
>
> HI,
>
> I am looking to build a intercom that will do the following with a
> Microair 760 radio 4 place plane
>
> I have some reasonable electrical experience, I am just liiking for a
> design.
>
> 1 VOX as the radio is a hot mike setup and I want to save some extra
> noise.
> 2 various inputs, some are both in and out and some are only inputs
> Both way would be
> Sat phone
> CDMA phone
> Handheld com
> UHF radio
>
> And input only would be
> Tpas
> CD player
> Alt alert (from transponder)
> And maybe a master caution alarm
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Irrecom question. |
I have been watching that website for some months. I really like the radio,
but it doesn't seem to have US FCC approval yet, so I doubt if we can buy
it. They also have an interesting intercom that I think is a part of the
radio that can be bought as a stand-alone intercom.
Terry
server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Irrecom question.
Check out :
http://www.mcp.com.au/xcom760/comparison.html
2 1/4" radio with more power than the microair and 4 place intercom
built in.
Ed Holyoke
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Gremlin |
>
>
> Just finished up all the Electrics on my RV6-A in the Hanger (garage)
> out back and have a small Gremlin. Everything works including transmit
> and receiving on both Comm's.
> Symptoms are as follows after turning on the Master:
> 1) About a 15 Amp. discharge shown on the Amp. Gauge
> with only the Oil Pressure Light and BC Regulator Charge light activated?
> 2) Everything works with no more discharge shown no
> matter how many things are brought online?
> 3) Now it gets interesting........If I transmit on
> either radio the following occurs:
> a) CHT & EXT Gauges dance like crazy!
> b) Amp Gauge goes Nuts!
> c) Flap & Trim Indicators leds dance!
> d) Fuel gauges advance very slightly even
> though the wings and thus indicators are not hooked up?
> The airport which is 3 miles away says I am transmitting
> crystal clear even from inside my garage with a belly antenna?!?
> Any suggestions of where to start looking would be appreciated as I
> don't want to put the forward skin down till I get this fixed.
sounds like an RF interference problem . . . had another
builder with similar situation just a week ago. Where
are your antennas located?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Limited Power Circuits/Fault |
Detection-Interruption
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>I like your comment of: "Sometimes the best way to hit a nail is with a
>hammer!"
>
>BUT....
>
>Do you know of any move to design aircraft circuits to be either "power
>limited" or "fault detection-interruptable" instead of "Max current limited"
>as a protection against smoke in the cockpit? Is sizing load
>current/wire/fuse/breaker combinations all that should be considered? Would
>fault detection prior to a smoke event be practical at all to accomplish?
>Would you guess that such technology will turn out to be another nuisance
>trip merry-go-round?
Sure, but can't do it very often. One good example is illustrated
in powering up indicator lamps. I've done some designs where the
current limiting resistor for LEDs are right at the bus. A dead short
to ground downstream just makes the resistor get warmer. One
could do a similar thing with other lamps . . . use a lower voltage
lamp and install dropping resistor right at the bus.
Some gaging systems like fuel gages, oil pressure gages, etc
could be configured to use this philosophy. Obviously, this
technique is limited to very low power systems.
>Swissair's 1998 flight 111 (MD-11) crash was found to be caused by "sparks"
>from "faulty wiring" that ignited "flammable insulation" above the cockpit.
>Obviously the circuit of cause was sized large enough to provide enough power
>to its load resistances and short or (lower resistance) circuit current
>limitation was inadequate to prevent a fire.
I think that airplane used Kynar insulated wire . . . supposedly very
tough,
VERY thin, but prone to cracking. Stay with tefzel and don't worry about
it.
>I guess removing the "flammable insulation" from the design is the first and
>most important fix . . .
. . . you got that right. For all the hoops they jump
us through for flammability issues, I'm mystified as to
how the MD-80 had such materials on board . . .
> . . . but what about a design that will not allow a "fault" to
>occur that will not also cause the circuit to open? Supply/return leg
>current transducers looking for equal readings before deciding to shut the
>juice off? Micro smoke detectors every few inches? Too much variation from
>KISS here?
There are folks offering soft fault detection in smart circuit
breakers . . . you don't want to know what these cost.
>How is Dee healing these days?
We been going to the gym every morning for the past two weeks.
She's up to 50# on the ab-crunch machine. She's also been up
to her elbows in the garden dirt the past two days. All the
gardens got neglected the last two years of her graduate studies.
She took her mom to their favorite greenhouse last week
and came home with a van-load of new "bushes" of various
kinds. I was hoping she'd stuff some boards for me today
but the weather was too nice and her gardens were calling.
Thanks for asking.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rino <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Irrecom question. |
I was told 6 weeks before US FCC approval.
They have a booth at Sun N Fun
Rino
Terry Watson wrote:
>
>
> I have been watching that website for some months. I really like the radio,
> but it doesn't seem to have US FCC approval yet, so I doubt if we can buy
> it. They also have an interesting intercom that I think is a part of the
> radio that can be bought as a stand-alone intercom.
>
> Terry
>
> server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Irrecom question.
>
>
> Check out :
>
> http://www.mcp.com.au/xcom760/comparison.html
>
> 2 1/4" radio with more power than the microair and 4 place intercom
> built in.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Filter inductor question |
Bob,
Thanks for the responding.
>
> I measured one on the bench and it comes out to about 1 Millihenry
> and is wound with 22AWG wire which gives it a current rating on the
> order of 2A or so.
>
Is it in the form of a strait coil, or some torroidal affair ?
Another question : the filter ground is to be connected to the firewall
ground bus (composite airplane), correct ?
> Why not a 2A fuse on the battery bus? Makes the hand held
> operable with everything else off for whatever reason.
> Of course, you don't want to walk away leaving the hand
> held turned on.
Good idea !
Thanks again
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Irrecom question. |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
> Check out http://www.rst-engr.com/ for an audio panel kit with
> intercom for
> US$278.
I can concur what a great kit this is.
Unfortunately I cannot use the Audio panel/Marker Rx I built and tested
here in UK so 'off list' if anyone in USA is interested in taking it
off my hands for $250 + Postage send me an a-mail. Payment can be after
receipt and inspection.
It is a 6.5" Faceplate version but can be converted to 6.25 for $25.00.
I have all details from Jim at RST.
Any sensible offer accepted as otherwise it will languish in my
workshop never used.
Sorry about using Forum to sell.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
mailto://gnholland(at)onetel.com
+44 7808 402404
Europa XS 384
G-FIZY
The greatest enjoyment from existence is living dangerously....
Friedrich Nietzsche
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Gremlin |
Bob, The antenna's are on the belly of the plane. Other possible
contributors to my problem may be:
1) I am transmitting in a 24 x 52 garage
2) Forward top skin over the panel is off.
I still need to find out why my Amp. Gauge shows about a 10-12 Amp.
discharge when the Master Switch is thrown and every other circuit is still
off including the radio's. This is probably unrelated to the RF problem?
Thanks for any help. Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical System Gremlin
>
> >
> >
> > Just finished up all the Electrics on my RV6-A in the Hanger (garage)
> > out back and have a small Gremlin. Everything works including transmit
> > and receiving on both Comm's.
> > Symptoms are as follows after turning on the Master:
> > 1) About a 15 Amp. discharge shown on the Amp.
Gauge
> > with only the Oil Pressure Light and BC Regulator Charge light
activated?
> > 2) Everything works with no more discharge shown no
> > matter how many things are brought online?
> > 3) Now it gets interesting........If I transmit on
> > either radio the following occurs:
> > a) CHT & EXT Gauges dance like crazy!
> > b) Amp Gauge goes Nuts!
> > c) Flap & Trim Indicators leds dance!
> > d) Fuel gauges advance very slightly even
> > though the wings and thus indicators are not hooked up?
> > The airport which is 3 miles away says I am transmitting
> > crystal clear even from inside my garage with a belly antenna?!?
> > Any suggestions of where to start looking would be appreciated as
I
> > don't want to put the forward skin down till I get this fixed.
>
> sounds like an RF interference problem . . . had another
> builder with similar situation just a week ago. Where
> are your antennas located?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Filter inductor question |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>
>Bob,
>Thanks for the responding.
>
>
> >
> > I measured one on the bench and it comes out to about 1 Millihenry
> > and is wound with 22AWG wire which gives it a current rating on the
> > order of 2A or so.
> >
>
>Is it in the form of a strait coil, or some torroidal affair ?
Any inductor with the right characteristics will do. The 270-030
particular part is wound on E-I laminations stacked
all one direction with an air-gap.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
"They recommend a 1A fuse for the indicator and an 1A
fuse for the servo. I checked how much current these
devices are taking and elected to use a single 1A fuse
for both of them. "
Cheers,
Let us remember that fuses protect the wiring...........
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michel Therrien <mtherr(at)yahoo.com> |
Exactly. That's why I thought that if a 1A fuse
protects adequately all the wires of either the servo
and the indicator and both units together take less
than 1/2A (I don't remember what measurement I made),
I was more than safe enough.
--- Fergus Kyle wrote:
> Kyle"
>
> Cheers,
> Let us remember that fuses protect the
> wiring...........
> Ferg
http://platinum.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
<>
A little trivial, but adding a diode in series with a light will make the
total power consumption go down, not up. The diode drop lowers the actual
voltage at the light, reducing the current draw, but not in direct
proportion to the voltage drop. The reason is that the reduced voltage will
lower the filament temperature, reducing its resistance slightly. The power
dissipated in the diode is power that would have been dissipated at the
light if the diode weren't there. Other types of loads behave differently.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
Plus, if your trim indicator goes blank, you know you've lost your trim....
From The PossumWorks
Mark
>
> Exactly. That's why I thought that if a 1A fuse
> protects adequately all the wires of either the servo
> and the indicator and both units together take less
> than 1/2A (I don't remember what measurement I made),
> I was more than safe enough.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Bob,
I have lots of experience with RG-8 and RG-58, etc. but none
with the RG400 which has two coax screens. Now that I'm connecting the coax
to antenna elements (by the usual 'picking' coax screen to get at insulator
and central wire), can you please tell me how to connect each screen?
That is one, both or either to ground element?
Thanks, ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Filter inductor question |
> Any inductor with the right characteristics will do. The 270-030
> particular part is wound on E-I laminations stacked
> all one direction with an air-gap.
>
> Bob . . .
Thanks once more Bob,
Ahem, still another question....
I'm unable to locate a 1N4744 Zener diode in this part of the world. I
understand it is a 15 V, 1 watt zener.
But we have lots of 15 V, 1.3 watt or even 5 watt Zener diodes (1N5352B).
Will that do for the filter ? Maybe a single 5 watt Zener will be up to the
job ?
This is hopefully my last question since I found a suitable capacitor ;-)
Thank you,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Gremlin |
>
>
>Bob, The antenna's are on the belly of the plane. Other possible
>contributors to my problem may be:
> 1) I am transmitting in a 24 x 52 garage
> 2) Forward top skin over the panel is off.
I wouldn't expect instruments to be that sensitive
to RF with the amount of isolation you seem to have.
What brand and model numbers of affected instruments
are we talking about?
>I still need to find out why my Amp. Gauge shows about a 10-12 Amp.
>discharge when the Master Switch is thrown and every other circuit is still
>off including the radio's. This is probably unrelated to the RF problem?
I suspect this is the case. If you have an ammeter that
shows "discharge" I presume your system architecture is
something other than one of those illustrated in
Appendix-Z?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics ISP Upgrade TODAY... |
Dear Listers,
The time has finally arrived for the Internet Service Provider (ISP)
upgrade! You'll recall that I was looking into upgrading the existing SDSL
connection from 768k to 1.1M. As it turned out, the copper line wouldn't
support any speeds greater than the current 768k. In light of that news, I
just bit-the-bullet and ordered a full, commercial-grade T1
connection. The T1 connection will provide a full-duplex, high priority,
1.5Mb Internet connection which should be a substantial performance
enhancement for all of the List services!
Pacbell delivered the T1 Loop last week and it tested out fine. This past
weekend I pulled the tail circuit from the demark to the office. This
afternoon, Tuesday 4/1/03, the ISP is suppose come and install the new
router and bring up routing on a test subnet. Assuming that everything
checks out okay with the T1, new router, and routing, I will have them
swing the main Matronics subnet off the SDSL and onto the T1. In theory,
the swing could be nearly transparent to users, but that's usually not the
case... ;-)
Please expect a bit of instability in connectivity this afternoon as we
work though the transition issues. I will post a follow up message when
everything is up and running on the new T1 line.
Finally, please know that it is solely your Contributions that make these
kinds of List upgrades happen! There is no advertising budget (aka,
flashing banner ads and annoying pop up browser windows) to pay these
bills; operational support is solely from List members like you during the
yearly List Fund Raiser. If you would like to make your Contribution to
support the Lists and upgrades like this T1 connectivity enhancement,
please see the List Contribution Web Site where you can make your
Contribution with a Credit Card, PayPal, or Personal Check. You can even
get a free List Archive CDROM with a qualifying List Contribution! The URL
is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thanks again to EVERYONE that made a generous Contribution last year and
enabled this awesome upgrade to T1 service!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG400 Opps, forgot the link |
>
>Bob,
> I have lots of experience with RG-8 and RG-58, etc. but none
>with the RG400 which has two coax screens. Now that I'm connecting the coax
>to antenna elements (by the usual 'picking' coax screen to get at insulator
>and central wire), can you please tell me how to connect each screen?
> That is one, both or either to ground element?
Treat them as a single shield. Insulation is sufficiently
heat resistant to soldering shield end directly to antenna
element.
Here's a series of photos I did for a Shop Notes posting
that I've not yet taken time to post.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Antenna
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
> I have lots of experience with RG-8 and RG-58, etc. but none
>with the RG400 which has two coax screens. Now that I'm connecting the coax
>to antenna elements (by the usual 'picking' coax screen to get at insulator
>and central wire), can you please tell me how to connect each screen?
> That is one, both or either to ground element?
Treat them as a single shield. Insulation is sufficiently
heat resistant to soldering shield end directly to antenna
element.
Here's a series of photos I did for a Shop Notes posting
that I've not yet taken time to post.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jones, Michael" <MJones(at)hatch.ca> |
hi bob
attached is pdf of wiring diagram for all electric airplane as you have
shown on your web site. i have your load/voltmeter on order wit westach and
was hoping you could have look at how the two switches are show to allow
switching between main and backup bus.
mike
<>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin 196 and DB up/download |
Hello "Neters",
I have a question about the Garmin 196, I like the GPS, I'm living in Europe
and my main use would be here. Now I love to go to Australia from time to
time and to some intensive flying over there.
As I can upload a new Database into the Garmin, this seems not to be a
problem, but, can I download the European (Atlantic) version first, then
upload the Australia (Pacific) database and when I'm coming back from my
holidays do it the other way round? What program do I need? Yes, I know, I
could have a plugable datacard, but is there a way without it?
Many thanks for your help
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
On the note of a diode, I would like to highly recommend Eric Jones
Superdiode that he supplied to me. I have these units feeding my two
avionics busses, one of which is the E-bus, in my z-14 style system. I
powered the panel up for the first time this weekend (pictures to
follow), and I'm happy to report a very small voltage drop across these
diodes. I don't have hard numbers in front of me (will get later during
final assembly), but it was much less than the standard .6 or .7, on the
order of .2 or .3 I believe. This is significant. Thanks Eric.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Landing Light - on e-buss or main
buss???
I would put the landing light onto the main bus because it will only be
used during the final portions of the approach, by which time the main
bus can be re-lit. The battery WILL have the capacity to power
everything you need for the few minutes that you are on approach
because you designed your airplane to have more battery than gasoline,
right?
The e(ndurance)-bus is designed to have only the minimum equipment
required for long distance flight on your remaining power source. The
landing
light doesn't fit into the category of things that are needed for
endurance. The
goal of the e-bus is to turn off everything but the things required to
keep the
wings upright, stay on course, and be able to tell someone about it.
Further, since the e-bus (in the architectures I have been looking at,
like
z-11) is fed by a diode, the more power you run through it, the more
power
it dissipates. This might be a minor issue, but I think its worth
considering.
Once you have a 8A (100W) light turned on, you are burning an additional
4.8W (8A*0.6V) just running it through the diode. I think 4W will keep
the main
bus contactor closed.
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> Bob:
>
> If I remember correctly you put the landing light on the Main buss -
> rather than on the E-bus. Wouldn't it be good to be able to turn it
on
> when landing at night?? If it appeared to be killing my bat. then I
> could flip it off again and land without it - but if I had enough
juise
> in the bat. why not make it so I could use it??
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Gremlin |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical System Gremlin
>
> >
> >
> >Bob, The antenna's are on the belly of the plane. Other possible
> >contributors to my problem may be:
> > 1) I am transmitting in a 24 x 52 garage
> > 2) Forward top skin over the panel is off.
>
> I wouldn't expect instruments to be that sensitive
> to RF with the amount of isolation you seem to have.
> What brand and model numbers of affected instruments
> are we talking about?
>
>
> >I still need to find out why my Amp. Gauge shows about a 10-12 Amp.
> >discharge when the Master Switch is thrown and every other circuit is
still
> >off including the radio's. This is probably unrelated to the RF problem?
>
> I suspect this is the case. If you have an ammeter that
> shows "discharge" I presume your system architecture is
> something other than one of those illustrated in
> Appendix-Z?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Gremlin |
Bob, All gauges are from Van's but look very similar including the shunt
to Isspro Gauges handled by Chief Aircraft in Or. The Flap and Trim
Indicators are made by Ray Allen being the only other items effected.
Sadly the architecture is a lot like a Cessna with breakers etc.
but I do have a B&C Aternator and Regulator.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical System Gremlin
>
> >
> >
> >Bob, The antenna's are on the belly of the plane. Other possible
> >contributors to my problem may be:
> > 1) I am transmitting in a 24 x 52 garage
> > 2) Forward top skin over the panel is off.
>
> I wouldn't expect instruments to be that sensitive
> to RF with the amount of isolation you seem to have.
> What brand and model numbers of affected instruments
> are we talking about?
>
>
> >I still need to find out why my Amp. Gauge shows about a 10-12 Amp.
> >discharge when the Master Switch is thrown and every other circuit is
still
> >off including the radio's. This is probably unrelated to the RF problem?
>
> I suspect this is the case. If you have an ammeter that
> shows "discharge" I presume your system architecture is
> something other than one of those illustrated in
> Appendix-Z?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing Light - on e-buss or main |
buss???
>
>
>On the note of a diode, I would like to highly recommend Eric Jones
>Superdiode that he supplied to me. I have these units feeding my two
>avionics busses, one of which is the E-bus, in my z-14 style system. I
>powered the panel up for the first time this weekend (pictures to
>follow), and I'm happy to report a very small voltage drop across these
>diodes. I don't have hard numbers in front of me (will get later during
>final assembly), but it was much less than the standard .6 or .7, on the
>order of .2 or .3 I believe. This is significant. Thanks Eric.
Actually, it's not very significant . . . we've discussed this
at length numerous times. None-the-less, Eric's product does
produce about 1/2 the heat of the silicon junction devices.
Given that the e-bus continuous loads on most aircraft are on
the order of 2-5A, this means that loss of 1.5 to 3.5 watts in
a 560 to 840 watt system can be reduced to 0.4 to 1.5 watts . . .
a battery contactor tosses about 10 watts . . . and it too
is no big deal.
On the voltage side, consider that the whole reason for
the e-bus is to insure second-path, battery-power during
alternator and/or contactor failures. Batteries DELIVER
energy at 12.5 to 10.5 volts. The only time the e-bus
carries current is when the alternator is running . . .
the bus should be 13.8 to 14.6 volts. Assuming a 0.7
volt drop, the MINIMUM voltage on the e-bus during normal
ops is 13.1 volts . . . about 0.6 volts higher than
you'll get battery-only. If you expect your e-bus
powered goodies to perform well at 12.5 and below,
13.1 and above should be okay too.
I considered Schottky diodes in early days of e-bus
evolution. After considering the cost of having
to package a device (like Eric's product) against
ease of use for an off-the-shelf silicon bridge
rectifier, it seemed like a no-brainer decision.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing Light - on e-buss or main |
buss???
>
>
>On the note of a diode, I would like to highly recommend Eric Jones
>Superdiode that he supplied to me. I have these units feeding my two
>avionics busses, one of which is the E-bus, in my z-14 style system. I
>powered the panel up for the first time this weekend (pictures to
>follow), and I'm happy to report a very small voltage drop across these
>diodes. I don't have hard numbers in front of me (will get later during
>final assembly), but it was much less than the standard .6 or .7, on the
>order of .2 or .3 I believe. This is significant. Thanks Eric.
Actually, it's not very significant . . . we've discussed this
at length numerous times. None-the-less, Eric's product does
produce about 1/2 the heat of the silicon junction devices.
Given that the e-bus continuous loads on most aircraft are on
the order of 2-5A, this means that loss of 1.5 to 3.5 watts in
a 560 to 840 watt system can be reduced to 0.4 to 1.5 watts . . .
a battery contactor tosses about 10 watts . . . and it too
is no big deal.
On the voltage side, consider that the whole reason for
the e-bus is to insure second-path, battery-power during
alternator and/or contactor failures. Batteries DELIVER
energy at 12.5 to 10.5 volts. The only time the e-bus
carries current is when the alternator is running . . .
the bus should be 13.8 to 14.6 volts. Assuming a 0.7
volt drop, the MINIMUM voltage on the e-bus during normal
ops is 13.1 volts . . . about 0.6 volts higher than
you'll get battery-only. If you expect your e-bus
powered goodies to perform well at 12.5 and below,
13.1 and above should be okay too.
I considered Schottky diodes in early days of e-bus
evolution. After considering the cost of having
to package a device (like Eric's product) against
ease of use for an off-the-shelf silicon bridge
rectifier, it seemed like a no-brainer decision.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Filter inductor question |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> > Any inductor with the right characteristics will do. The 270-030
> > particular part is wound on E-I laminations stacked
> > all one direction with an air-gap.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>Thanks once more Bob,
>
>Ahem, still another question....
>I'm unable to locate a 1N4744 Zener diode in this part of the world. I
>understand it is a 15 V, 1 watt zener.
>But we have lots of 15 V, 1.3 watt or even 5 watt Zener diodes (1N5352B).
>Will that do for the filter ? Maybe a single 5 watt Zener will be up to the
>job ?
That would do fine. I like the 1W glass devices because
they fail shorted rather quickly and do a sort of one-part
crowbar effort against the fuse (you ARE using a fuse
to feed this thing?). I've not tested a larger zener
but it's very likely to be a suitable substitute.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
My point was I think that the devices that Eric is building are a step
in the right direction for OBAM aircraft (these include several solid
state relay devices in addition to the diodes). Also, considering
Eric's diode is the only one readily available that will handle the 20A
my one buss requires is significant.
As always, thanks for setting me straight and putting it all in
perspective. Your vast understanding in really incredible. Thanks.
Shannon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Landing Light - on e-buss or main
buss???
>
>
>On the note of a diode, I would like to highly recommend Eric Jones
>Superdiode that he supplied to me. I have these units feeding my two
>avionics busses, one of which is the E-bus, in my z-14 style system. I
>powered the panel up for the first time this weekend (pictures to
>follow), and I'm happy to report a very small voltage drop across these
>diodes. I don't have hard numbers in front of me (will get later
during
>final assembly), but it was much less than the standard .6 or .7, on
the
>order of .2 or .3 I believe. This is significant. Thanks Eric.
Actually, it's not very significant . . . we've discussed this
at length numerous times. None-the-less, Eric's product does
produce about 1/2 the heat of the silicon junction devices.
Given that the e-bus continuous loads on most aircraft are on
the order of 2-5A, this means that loss of 1.5 to 3.5 watts in
a 560 to 840 watt system can be reduced to 0.4 to 1.5 watts . . .
a battery contactor tosses about 10 watts . . . and it too
is no big deal.
On the voltage side, consider that the whole reason for
the e-bus is to insure second-path, battery-power during
alternator and/or contactor failures. Batteries DELIVER
energy at 12.5 to 10.5 volts. The only time the e-bus
carries current is when the alternator is running . . .
the bus should be 13.8 to 14.6 volts. Assuming a 0.7
volt drop, the MINIMUM voltage on the e-bus during normal
ops is 13.1 volts . . . about 0.6 volts higher than
you'll get battery-only. If you expect your e-bus
powered goodies to perform well at 12.5 and below,
13.1 and above should be okay too.
I considered Schottky diodes in early days of e-bus
evolution. After considering the cost of having
to package a device (like Eric's product) against
ease of use for an off-the-shelf silicon bridge
rectifier, it seemed like a no-brainer decision.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
Schottky diodes for 20A are in fact quite common, but not in Radio
Shack. Check www.digikey.com. Search for International Rectifier
Schottky rectifiers. You will find at least a hundred of different
Schottky diodes with max current anywhere between 20A and 400A.
The diodes between 20A and 40A cost roughly between $1 and $3, depending
on voltage . Those good for 40A to 80A cost anywhere between $3 and $10.
Digikey accepts telephone or email orders.
Jerzy
Shannon Knoepflein wrote:
>
>My point was I think that the devices that Eric is building are a step
>in the right direction for OBAM aircraft (these include several solid
>state relay devices in addition to the diodes). Also, considering
>Eric's diode is the only one readily available that will handle the 20A
>my one buss requires is significant.
>
>As always, thanks for setting me straight and putting it all in
>perspective. Your vast understanding in really incredible. Thanks.
>
>Shannon
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Landing Light - on e-buss or main
>buss???
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>On the note of a diode, I would like to highly recommend Eric Jones
>>Superdiode that he supplied to me. I have these units feeding my two
>>avionics busses, one of which is the E-bus, in my z-14 style system. I
>>powered the panel up for the first time this weekend (pictures to
>>follow), and I'm happy to report a very small voltage drop across these
>>diodes. I don't have hard numbers in front of me (will get later
>>
>>
>during
>
>
>>final assembly), but it was much less than the standard .6 or .7, on
>>
>>
>the
>
>
>>order of .2 or .3 I believe. This is significant. Thanks Eric.
>>
>>
>
> Actually, it's not very significant . . . we've discussed this
> at length numerous times. None-the-less, Eric's product does
> produce about 1/2 the heat of the silicon junction devices.
> Given that the e-bus continuous loads on most aircraft are on
> the order of 2-5A, this means that loss of 1.5 to 3.5 watts in
> a 560 to 840 watt system can be reduced to 0.4 to 1.5 watts . . .
> a battery contactor tosses about 10 watts . . . and it too
> is no big deal.
>
> On the voltage side, consider that the whole reason for
> the e-bus is to insure second-path, battery-power during
> alternator and/or contactor failures. Batteries DELIVER
> energy at 12.5 to 10.5 volts. The only time the e-bus
> carries current is when the alternator is running . . .
> the bus should be 13.8 to 14.6 volts. Assuming a 0.7
> volt drop, the MINIMUM voltage on the e-bus during normal
> ops is 13.1 volts . . . about 0.6 volts higher than
> you'll get battery-only. If you expect your e-bus
> powered goodies to perform well at 12.5 and below,
> 13.1 and above should be okay too.
>
> I considered Schottky diodes in early days of e-bus
> evolution. After considering the cost of having
> to package a device (like Eric's product) against
> ease of use for an off-the-shelf silicon bridge
> rectifier, it seemed like a no-brainer decision.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Connection to Diode |
I'm gathering parts for the wiring job and have what is probably a dumb question.
The aircraft will be wired following Bob's Z-13 diagram. This calls for #6
wires from the battery contactor to the Main and E-busses. the wires go through
the diode to the e-buss.
Here's the question. Is there a fast-on connector for the #6 wire? B&C lists only
ring type connectors on the web site. Or is #6 overkill and is a smaller wire
suitable?
Thanks
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: to Schottky or not to Shottkey, that IS thw question |
. . .
>
>
>Schottky diodes for 20A are in fact quite common, but not in Radio
>Shack. Check www.digikey.com. Search for International Rectifier
>Schottky rectifiers. You will find at least a hundred of different
>Schottky diodes with max current anywhere between 20A and 400A.
>The diodes between 20A and 40A cost roughly between $1 and $3, depending
>on voltage . Those good for 40A to 80A cost anywhere between $3 and $10.
>Digikey accepts telephone or email orders.
>Jerzy
Availability wasn't the driving consideration. I've used
Schottky diodes for years in designs where package didn't
particularly matter and unique performance characteristics
were desired.
The decision to recommend the bridge rectifier assembly
came from the fact that it mounts easily as supplied . . .
no brackets, insulating washers or solder joints required.
They come fitted with 1/4" fast-on tabs ready to bolt to
some handy surface between the e-bus and main-bus fuse
blocks. No effort other than to buy it, bolt it and wire
it. Diode arrays rated up to 35 amps in this package
were readily available from many suppliers.
Eric's product requires his manufacturing time to put
the raw device into a user friendly package. Fine
if you need the unique performance of the Schottky
device. There's nothing wrong with using this
product in your airplane . . . I'd like for
folks to make the decision based on knowledgeable
evaluation of fact and not upon shop-worn myths
or marketing hype.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Bernard" <billbernard(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connection to Diode |
Nevermind, I found the answer. It's #16 wire that connects to the diode, not #6.
(Gotta' get these bifocals adjusted...)
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
| From: | Jay Ferguson <jayferg(at)midsouth.rr.com> |
I read somewhere about some sort of resistor that could be used in
light circuits to protect incandescent lamps when they were switched
on. It would initially have high resistance which would drop quickly
when warmed by current flow. The ramp-up to full brightness would not
be so slow as to be bothersome but would offer some protection to the
lamp's cold filament. Is anyone familiar with this resistor and is it
worth the effort to incorporate them into an OBAM electrical system?
Thx,
Jay Ferguson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
I have the diode assy from B&C and wish to also place my taxi light on the E-bus
as
backup for master contactor failure. This drives E-bus max current into the
neighborhood of 20 amps, if a 100w bulb were installed (planning on 55w, but a
100w
bulb CAN be installed) The Connection indicates a heat sink is required if the
diode
is driven over 3-4 amps. Mouser does not carry the same heat sink as DigiKey,
but a
similar one is Mouser part# 532-568303B00 on page692. Search at:
http://www.mouser.com//index.cfm?handler=productsearch._searchform
Does this one look like it will work as well, or would it be better to go with
the
Schottke mentioned below?
Also, can the feed side terminals of the diode assembly be jumpered together to
utilize 2 of the diodes within? Any advantage here? (less load on one diode, better
heat dissipation or less voltage drop across parallel diodes?)
The above load also requires protecting the E-bus at 20 amps- As mentioned on the
Aeroelectric website the B&C fuseblocks are rated at 30, but cautioned to not use
over 15 amps per circuit. I was planning to feed the diode with a 20 amp fuse
from
the main bus fuseblock. Is this acceptable?
The alternate e-bus feed will require 12AWG wire. Can I make a short 16AWG fuselink
to protect this or would an inline fuse be preferred? Can I also crimp this wire
into the terminal for the + battery cable along with the fat wire to eliminate
a
separate connector stacked on the battery terminal? (have access to BIG crimper)
Thanks for all the assistance and apologies for the deviant behavior!
Mark Phillips
Shannon Knoepflein wrote:
>
> My point was I think that the devices that Eric is building are a step
> in the right direction for OBAM aircraft (these include several solid
> state relay devices in addition to the diodes). Also, considering
> Eric's diode is the only one readily available that will handle the 20A
> my one buss requires is significant.
>
> As always, thanks for setting me straight and putting it all in
> perspective. Your vast understanding in really incredible. Thanks.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
I think you are looking for a current limiter. These come packaged in
small discs with 2 leads off of them, sort of look like a disc
capacitor. These are used to limit the inrush current when you first
turn a light on until the filament heats up. They are available from
sources like digikey, etc. I am using these on my landing and taxi
lights.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay
Ferguson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
I read somewhere about some sort of resistor that could be used in
light circuits to protect incandescent lamps when they were switched
on. It would initially have high resistance which would drop quickly
when warmed by current flow. The ramp-up to full brightness would not
be so slow as to be bothersome but would offer some protection to the
lamp's cold filament. Is anyone familiar with this resistor and is it
worth the effort to incorporate them into an OBAM electrical system?
Thx,
Jay Ferguson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>I read somewhere about some sort of resistor that could be used in
>light circuits to protect incandescent lamps when they were switched
>on. It would initially have high resistance which would drop quickly
>when warmed by current flow. The ramp-up to full brightness would not
>be so slow as to be bothersome but would offer some protection to the
>lamp's cold filament. Is anyone familiar with this resistor and is it
>worth the effort to incorporate them into an OBAM electrical system?
>
>Thx,
>Jay Ferguson
See inrush current limiters at
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T031/0731.pdf
I incorporated one of these into the taxi light
on the GP-180 at lear about 20 years ago. I'm unaware
of any more applications since. If you're using $high$
"aircraft" lamps, they might be worth the trouble.
Use $low$ automotive or industrial halogen lamps
and you'll get many times the life without the
inrush limiters and far less cost.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light - on e-buss or main |
buss???
>
>I have the diode assy from B&C and wish to also place my taxi light on the
>E-bus as
>backup for master contactor failure. This drives E-bus max current into the
>neighborhood of 20 amps, if a 100w bulb were installed (planning on 55w,
>but a 100w
>bulb CAN be installed)
Why install a 100W? If this is the back up, what is the value
added by increasing the size of the lamp?
> The Connection indicates a heat sink is required if the diode
>is driven over 3-4 amps. Mouser does not carry the same heat sink as
>DigiKey, but a
>similar one is Mouser part# 532-568303B00 on page692. Search at:
>http://www.mouser.com//index.cfm?handler=productsearch._searchform
>
>Does this one look like it will work as well, or would it be better to go
>with the
>Schottke mentioned below?
First, if having some kind of exterior lighting available
when all else fails is of concern to you, I'd run the
lamp from a battery bus. Use an S704-1 relay right at the battery bus
You can power the relay from the e-bus to make sure it
doesn't get left on after the battery master and e-bus
alternate feeds are shut down. Give the lamp its own
fuse on the battery bus. Alternatively you can consider
one of Eric's solid state relays.
>Also, can the feed side terminals of the diode assembly be jumpered
>together to
>utilize 2 of the diodes within? Any advantage here? (less load on one
>diode, better
>heat dissipation or less voltage drop across parallel diodes?)
>
>The above load also requires protecting the E-bus at 20 amps- As mentioned
>on the
>Aeroelectric website the B&C fuseblocks are rated at 30, but cautioned to
>not use
>over 15 amps per circuit. I was planning to feed the diode with a 20 amp
>fuse from
>the main bus fuseblock. Is this acceptable?
>
>The alternate e-bus feed will require 12AWG wire. Can I make a short
>16AWG fuselink
>to protect this or would an inline fuse be preferred? Can I also crimp
>this wire
>into the terminal for the + battery cable along with the fat wire to
>eliminate a
>separate connector stacked on the battery terminal? (have access to BIG
>crimper)
>
>Thanks for all the assistance and apologies for the deviant behavior!
Using relay makes all these issues go away. I'd recommend
you keep the e-bus loads limited to true endurance issues.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
There is another method which keeps the filiment warm by suppying 10% (?)
power to it. Not sure how this is done though.
>
>
>I think you are looking for a current limiter. These come packaged in
>small discs with 2 leads off of them, sort of look like a disc
>capacitor. These are used to limit the inrush current when you first
>turn a light on until the filament heats up. They are available from
>sources like digikey, etc. I am using these on my landing and taxi
>lights.
>
>---
>Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay
>Ferguson
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
>
>
>
>I read somewhere about some sort of resistor that could be used in
>light circuits to protect incandescent lamps when they were switched
>on. It would initially have high resistance which would drop quickly
>when warmed by current flow. The ramp-up to full brightness would not
>be so slow as to be bothersome but would offer some protection to the
>lamp's cold filament. Is anyone familiar with this resistor and is it
>worth the effort to incorporate them into an OBAM electrical system?
>
>Thx,
>Jay Ferguson
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
Wouldn't it be easier on the switches and/or relays (or SSR's in my
case) to have these limiters to keep the current in check on circuits
like my 4 75W taxi/landing lights? I would think the life of the
contacts would improve?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
>
>
>I read somewhere about some sort of resistor that could be used in
>light circuits to protect incandescent lamps when they were switched
>on. It would initially have high resistance which would drop quickly
>when warmed by current flow. The ramp-up to full brightness would not
>be so slow as to be bothersome but would offer some protection to the
>lamp's cold filament. Is anyone familiar with this resistor and is it
>worth the effort to incorporate them into an OBAM electrical system?
>
>Thx,
>Jay Ferguson
See inrush current limiters at
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T031/0731.pdf
I incorporated one of these into the taxi light
on the GP-180 at lear about 20 years ago. I'm unaware
of any more applications since. If you're using $high$
"aircraft" lamps, they might be worth the trouble.
Use $low$ automotive or industrial halogen lamps
and you'll get many times the life without the
inrush limiters and far less cost.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Filter inductor question |
Thank you Bob,
> >But we have lots of 15 V, 1.3 watt or even 5 watt Zener diodes (1N5352B).
> >Will that do for the filter ? Maybe a single 5 watt Zener will be up to
the
> >job ?
>
> That would do fine. I like the 1W glass devices because
> they fail shorted rather quickly and do a sort of one-part
> crowbar effort against the fuse
Hey, that's clever.
(you ARE using a fuse
> to feed this thing?).
Yes sir. 2 or 3 amps fuse on the fuse block.
I've not tested a larger zener
> but it's very likely to be a suitable substitute.
>
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light - on e-buss or main buss??? |
> Using relay makes all these issues go away. I'd recommend
> you keep the e-bus loads limited to true endurance issues.
Very well- in the interest of KISS, will re-locate taxi to main, supply E-bus "by
the book"
The likelihood of master contactor + alt failure (spent the big bux for a B&C)
are pretty
remote.........
One more Q please: For packaging considerations, I need to reverse the fat wires
on the
master contactor. Any problem with this provided the diode and coil feed wire
are switched
around?
Can't thank you enough for all the assistance- any neophyte trying to wire his/her
plane
without the A-list must be insane!! Heap-O-Thanx, Bob & Matt
This Nuckollhead crying "uncle!" at The PossumWorks
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>There is another method which keeps the filiment warm by suppying 10% (?)
>power to it. Not sure how this is done though.
Covered in detail in chapter 12 . . .
and 1% is more than sufficient.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
Bob,
Just wondered if you have run across the following:
http://www.hotronicsproducts.com/circuit.htm
It is typically used by Street Rodders to kill all power drains on the
battery. They often store their Street Rods between shows and they had
problems with things (Alternator Regulators, clocks, etc) running the
battery down. This battery disconnect was developed as a solution. The
vendor says he sells a couple hundered each month.
It purpports to be a mechnical latching contactor. It does not require
electrical holding power so that no electricity is being consumed while it
is engaged. A momentary switch energizes the solenoid and then a mechanical
catch holds it in place and then the current is turned off. Same in reverse
for opening the battery circuit. It can be jarred open. For example one
fellow had it hard mounted on the Street Rod frame. His street rod had
virtually no suspension. When he crossed a railroad track at a high enough
speed the disconnect would jarre open. His solution was to remount on the
Street Rod body which in turn cushioned the jar enough to prevent
recurrance. Perhaps the jar open feature would be good in the event of an
airplane crash.
I was thinking of using this for my battery contactor.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks,
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>Wouldn't it be easier on the switches and/or relays (or SSR's in my
>case) to have these limiters to keep the current in check on circuits
>like my 4 75W taxi/landing lights? I would think the life of the
>contacts would improve?
How big is 'improve' . . . if the rated performance of
the switch is tens of thousands of operations with
a resistive load and drops to, say 2,000 operations
with a lamp load . . . how long will it take you
to wear out the switch? If you fly twice a week
and get 4 operations per flight, you'll get
a calendar service life of more than 5 years.
For the most part, switches in light airplanes die
of old age and not from in-service operational
stresses . . . no matter how you load them. I fly
airplanes pushing 40 years old with the original,
10A resistive rated landing light switches humming
right along.
Keep-warm and inrush-limiting have a nice ring
to them intellectually. I've designed inrush
limiters for 200A a/c compressor motors that have
1200A inrush capabilities . . . to keep from
bumping the bus too hard on a biz-jet . . . aside
from this special case, I have yet to identify
much value for incorporating this feature in
a light aircraft. This design philosophy will be
removed from the next revision to chapter 12.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
I guess the only real benefit then would be the longer lasting light
bulbs for standard relays and switches. It still seems they would be
warranted for the new solid state relays, which is why Eric suggested
them, and mainly why I am using them. If you don't think they are
warranted for this application, by all means let me know....one part to
remove and one less thing to fail.
Speaking of failure, what actually is involved on the inside of a
current limiter, ie, whats the physics behind its operation. I'm
guessing sort of like a resistor with opposite temperature properties?
When its cold, high resistance, heat it up and it goes to practically
zero?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
>
>
>Wouldn't it be easier on the switches and/or relays (or SSR's in my
>case) to have these limiters to keep the current in check on circuits
>like my 4 75W taxi/landing lights? I would think the life of the
>contacts would improve?
How big is 'improve' . . . if the rated performance of
the switch is tens of thousands of operations with
a resistive load and drops to, say 2,000 operations
with a lamp load . . . how long will it take you
to wear out the switch? If you fly twice a week
and get 4 operations per flight, you'll get
a calendar service life of more than 5 years.
For the most part, switches in light airplanes die
of old age and not from in-service operational
stresses . . . no matter how you load them. I fly
airplanes pushing 40 years old with the original,
10A resistive rated landing light switches humming
right along.
Keep-warm and inrush-limiting have a nice ring
to them intellectually. I've designed inrush
limiters for 200A a/c compressor motors that have
1200A inrush capabilities . . . to keep from
bumping the bus too hard on a biz-jet . . . aside
from this special case, I have yet to identify
much value for incorporating this feature in
a light aircraft. This design philosophy will be
removed from the next revision to chapter 12.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>I guess the only real benefit then would be the longer lasting light
>bulbs for standard relays and switches. It still seems they would be
>warranted for the new solid state relays, which is why Eric suggested
>them, and mainly why I am using them. If you don't think they are
>warranted for this application, by all means let me know....one part to
>remove and one less thing to fail.
Life IS a real issue with aviation lamps which tend to be
old technology, relatively short lived and expensive when
compared to modern automotive and commercial halogen
lamps. If it were my airplane and I could live with a
leading edge installation, I'd work really hard to get
this lamp installed in my leading edges:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/4352.JPG
It's short, halogen, dual filament and 55w. One of these
critters on each wing gives you hi-landing/lo-taxi lighting
and four (count 'em) FOUR filaments putting light out the
front.
Given that these run for YEARS on automobiles without pre-warming
or inrush limiting, they should last the lifetime of most
airplanes.
>Speaking of failure, what actually is involved on the inside of a
>current limiter, ie, whats the physics behind its operation. I'm
>guessing sort of like a resistor with opposite temperature properties?
>When its cold, high resistance, heat it up and it goes to practically
>zero?
Yes, it's a high current component with a negative
coefficient of resistance with respect to temperature.
Take a look at this excerpt from the Digikey catalog
http://216.55.140.222/temp/0731.pdf
Note that p/n KC023L has a room temperature resistance
of 1.3 ohms. Put this in series with system wiring and
a 100W light bulb with a total cold resistance of perhaps
200 milliohms gives you a total loop resistance of 1.5 ohms.
Hit this with 14v and you get 9.3 A inrush as opposed to
70 A inrush with the limiter out of the circuit.
As the limiter heats up, resistance drops to 40
milliohms. If your lamp draws 8A normally, then
8A x 0.04 Ohms gives you a .32 volts drop in the
limiter . . . usually acceptable in terms of
performance.
The trick to using these critters is that they
MUST be allowed to heat up. The first time they
installed one on the GP-180, the critter blew up.
One of experimental flight's techs came over to
show me the wreckage. He'd mounted it inside the
taxi light housing on the nose gear with a metal
clamp that caused a lot of heat to be sinked away
from the device. Power dissipation was not allowed
to warm the device up and it went into self destruct.
I bought some fiberglass sleeving used to seal doors
on wood-burning stoves. Wrapping the inrush limiter
with this material under the clamp allowed it to be
mounted to structure and still warm up so that it
could protect itself.
If you have them installed, I'd leave 'em in. They
do accomplish a useful function and will keep your
panel lights from dimming so much when you turn
on landing or taxi lights. Just be aware of (1) the
need to let them warm up and (2) mounting in a way
that reduces probability of vibration induced cracks
in their solid wire leads. Beyond these cautions,
they should be VERY long lived.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
>
>Bob,
>
>Just wondered if you have run across the following:
>
>http://www.hotronicsproducts.com/circuit.htm
>
>It is typically used by Street Rodders to kill all power drains on the
>battery. They often store their Street Rods between shows and they had
>problems with things (Alternator Regulators, clocks, etc) running the
>battery down. This battery disconnect was developed as a solution. The
>vendor says he sells a couple hundered each month.
>
>It purpports to be a mechnical latching contactor. It does not require
>electrical holding power so that no electricity is being consumed while it
>is engaged. A momentary switch energizes the solenoid and then a mechanical
>catch holds it in place and then the current is turned off. Same in reverse
>for opening the battery circuit. It can be jarred open. For example one
>fellow had it hard mounted on the Street Rod frame. His street rod had
>virtually no suspension. When he crossed a railroad track at a high enough
>speed the disconnect would jarre open. His solution was to remount on the
>Street Rod body which in turn cushioned the jar enough to prevent
>recurrance. Perhaps the jar open feature would be good in the event of an
>airplane crash.
>
>I was thinking of using this for my battery contactor.
>
>What are your thoughts?
Aside from having to support 10W or so of wasted power
to keep a conventional contactor closed, what benefit
do you perceive? It's SOP to turn off all switches
before an unplanned but anticipated arrival with the
earth (generally done at approach to landing speeds).
Unplanned and un-anticipated arrivals happen
at higher speeds and involve severe reduction in
volume of your airframe wherein automatic battery
disconnect is probably way down on your list
of concerns.
If you have an 18A Rotax alternator and really
need to save battery contactor energy, consider
a manual switch that operates when you want it to
and offers no surprises.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
I have an RV6A with a Chevy V6 engine that has an ellectrically depenent
ignition system (coil & contacts). In the event of alternator failure I want
to maximize battery life for the ignition system. The battery is in the
tail cone.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >Just wondered if you have run across the following:
> >
> >http://www.hotronicsproducts.com/circuit.htm
> >
> >It is typically used by Street Rodders to kill all power drains on the
> >battery. They often store their Street Rods between shows and they had
> >problems with things (Alternator Regulators, clocks, etc) running the
> >battery down. This battery disconnect was developed as a solution. The
> >vendor says he sells a couple hundered each month.
> >
> >It purpports to be a mechnical latching contactor. It does not require
> >electrical holding power so that no electricity is being consumed while
it
> >is engaged. A momentary switch energizes the solenoid and then a
mechanical
> >catch holds it in place and then the current is turned off. Same in
reverse
> >for opening the battery circuit. It can be jarred open. For example one
> >fellow had it hard mounted on the Street Rod frame. His street rod had
> >virtually no suspension. When he crossed a railroad track at a high
enough
> >speed the disconnect would jarre open. His solution was to remount on
the
> >Street Rod body which in turn cushioned the jar enough to prevent
> >recurrance. Perhaps the jar open feature would be good in the event of an
> >airplane crash.
> >
> >I was thinking of using this for my battery contactor.
> >
> >What are your thoughts?
>
> Aside from having to support 10W or so of wasted power
> to keep a conventional contactor closed, what benefit
> do you perceive? It's SOP to turn off all switches
> before an unplanned but anticipated arrival with the
> earth (generally done at approach to landing speeds).
> Unplanned and un-anticipated arrivals happen
> at higher speeds and involve severe reduction in
> volume of your airframe wherein automatic battery
> disconnect is probably way down on your list
> of concerns.
>
> If you have an 18A Rotax alternator and really
> need to save battery contactor energy, consider
> a manual switch that operates when you want it to
> and offers no surprises.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Need a vaccum pump with a pulley. |
| From: | cecilth(at)juno.com |
I need a vaccum pump with a pulley.
Where to get a reliable one.
I bought a rebuilt auto pump but I don't trust it.
Can any of the Lycoming pumps be converted to a pulley?
Cecil
Hatfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
BTW, new pix are up of my panel fired up in the plane. Only let the
smoke out of one wire in my haste :)
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair/04_2003 (look for panel pix
and video)
Enjoy!!!
And Bob, thanks for helping me get to this point with what has to be the
most reliable electrical system ever built for a Legacy (or any airplane
for that matter). I've learned a lot.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
They are mounted inline with the wire in the gear well picture I
attached. They are about the size of a quarter, and will sit outboard
of the strobe power supply you can see in the picture. I need to figure
out some way to protect them and mount them that will allow them to heat
up. What do you think of firesleeve or something over them, or will
heatshrink suffice? The insulation you mention, would this work in this
application? I can't picture the stuff you are talking about.
Also, seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had
about strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of
7A. I imagine its less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded
cable that comes with the strobe kit is 18 guage, which seems like way
overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that I'm
left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
the supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded suffice?
As always, thanks a ton. If you want it, you are definitely due a ride
in this machine when I get it in the air.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
>
>
>I guess the only real benefit then would be the longer lasting light
>bulbs for standard relays and switches. It still seems they would be
>warranted for the new solid state relays, which is why Eric suggested
>them, and mainly why I am using them. If you don't think they are
>warranted for this application, by all means let me know....one part to
>remove and one less thing to fail.
Life IS a real issue with aviation lamps which tend to be
old technology, relatively short lived and expensive when
compared to modern automotive and commercial halogen
lamps. If it were my airplane and I could live with a
leading edge installation, I'd work really hard to get
this lamp installed in my leading edges:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/4352.JPG
It's short, halogen, dual filament and 55w. One of these
critters on each wing gives you hi-landing/lo-taxi lighting
and four (count 'em) FOUR filaments putting light out the
front.
Given that these run for YEARS on automobiles without pre-warming
or inrush limiting, they should last the lifetime of most
airplanes.
>Speaking of failure, what actually is involved on the inside of a
>current limiter, ie, whats the physics behind its operation. I'm
>guessing sort of like a resistor with opposite temperature properties?
>When its cold, high resistance, heat it up and it goes to practically
>zero?
Yes, it's a high current component with a negative
coefficient of resistance with respect to temperature.
Take a look at this excerpt from the Digikey catalog
http://216.55.140.222/temp/0731.pdf
Note that p/n KC023L has a room temperature resistance
of 1.3 ohms. Put this in series with system wiring and
a 100W light bulb with a total cold resistance of perhaps
200 milliohms gives you a total loop resistance of 1.5 ohms.
Hit this with 14v and you get 9.3 A inrush as opposed to
70 A inrush with the limiter out of the circuit.
As the limiter heats up, resistance drops to 40
milliohms. If your lamp draws 8A normally, then
8A x 0.04 Ohms gives you a .32 volts drop in the
limiter . . . usually acceptable in terms of
performance.
The trick to using these critters is that they
MUST be allowed to heat up. The first time they
installed one on the GP-180, the critter blew up.
One of experimental flight's techs came over to
show me the wreckage. He'd mounted it inside the
taxi light housing on the nose gear with a metal
clamp that caused a lot of heat to be sinked away
from the device. Power dissipation was not allowed
to warm the device up and it went into self destruct.
I bought some fiberglass sleeving used to seal doors
on wood-burning stoves. Wrapping the inrush limiter
with this material under the clamp allowed it to be
mounted to structure and still warm up so that it
could protect itself.
If you have them installed, I'd leave 'em in. They
do accomplish a useful function and will keep your
panel lights from dimming so much when you turn
on landing or taxi lights. Just be aware of (1) the
need to let them warm up and (2) mounting in a way
that reduces probability of vibration induced cracks
in their solid wire leads. Beyond these cautions,
they should be VERY long lived.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
>
>I have an RV6A with a Chevy V6 engine that has an ellectrically depenent
>ignition system (coil & contacts). In the event of alternator failure I want
>to maximize battery life for the ignition system. The battery is in the
>tail cone.
Electrically dependent engine stuff should run
directly from the battery bus.
If you walk up to a J-3 and flip the mag switches
ON, the engine is HOT and that airplane doesn't
even have an electrical system. If that's an
acceptable condition, why not wire your electrically
outfitted aircraft for the same behavior?
If it were my airplane, I'd like to be able to shut
of the battery master and e-bus alternate feed any
time there's bad smells in the cockpit WITHOUT having
the engine stop.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fellowsw" <fellows.w(at)ewcapital.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
With respect to the recommended halogen taxi/landing lights, how do they
compare to production aircraft lights in terms of lighting ability? Do you
measure that in terms of candlepower and angular spread at a distance? What
are reasonable standards for illumination in terms of approach speed? Even
the GE4509 seems to me to be much brighter at a distance than an automobile
halogen light or the hid light.
Another question, if using circuit breakers with fast on tabs, what are the
options for mounting the tabs on a stock brass buss bar?
Walter Fellows
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Need a vaccum pump with a pulley. |
You might want to check the racing pumps. Here is one:
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=17200
R
----- Original Message -----
From: <cecilth(at)juno.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a vaccum pump with a pulley.
>
>
> I need a vaccum pump with a pulley.
> Where to get a reliable one.
> I bought a rebuilt auto pump but I don't trust it.
> Can any of the Lycoming pumps be converted to a pulley?
> Cecil
> Hatfield
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
Hi Bob,
Sorry to belabor this.
I'm not real clear on how to do what you are suggesting...
I thought it important to be able to isolate the battery. It is located
behind the occupants in the tail cone. Currently the Battery disconnect is
in front of the occupants under the panel. That leaves the battery lead
running under one of the occupants arms. It just seemed to make sense that
one should be able to cut the power from this main battery lead in the event
it were to short out in the cabin.
But if this is not really that risky then it would seem that my current
configuration is acceptable with the disconnect contactor under the panel.
I could extend the hot side of the contactor to an ignition switch that
would provide the battery power to the ignition. That way I could
de-energize the battery contactor opening all circuits except the ignition.
Is this close to what you mean by your post?
Thanks again,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
>
> >
> >I have an RV6A with a Chevy V6 engine that has an ellectrically depenent
> >ignition system (coil & contacts). In the event of alternator failure I
want
> >to maximize battery life for the ignition system. The battery is in the
> >tail cone.
> Electrically dependent engine stuff should run
> directly from the battery bus.
>
> If you walk up to a J-3 and flip the mag switches
> ON, the engine is HOT and that airplane doesn't
> even have an electrical system. If that's an
> acceptable condition, why not wire your electrically
> outfitted aircraft for the same behavior?
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd like to be able to shut
> of the battery master and e-bus alternate feed any
> time there's bad smells in the cockpit WITHOUT having
> the engine stop.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Sorry to belabor this.
>
>I'm not real clear on how to do what you are suggesting...
>
>I thought it important to be able to isolate the battery. It is located
>behind the occupants in the tail cone. Currently the Battery disconnect is
>in front of the occupants under the panel. That leaves the battery lead
>running under one of the occupants arms. It just seemed to make sense that
>one should be able to cut the power from this main battery lead in the event
>it were to short out in the cabin.
Sure . . there's a BATTERY MASTER contactor right at the
battery. Open the battery master switch and everything
but the battery bus goes cold. You have a battery bus right
at the battery location too. Low current feeds (FAA likes to
see 5A or less, I'm comfortable with 7A if fused, not breakered)
drive directly from the battery bus. If you have higher current
needs, then a mini-contactor, or fat-relay (like the S704 or
it's solid state equal) is used to make feeds larger than
7A cold right at the bus. Your e-bus alternate feed comes
from the battery bus, your engine dependent needs come from
the battery bus.
>But if this is not really that risky then it would seem that my current
>configuration is acceptable with the disconnect contactor under the panel.
>I could extend the hot side of the contactor to an ignition switch that
>would provide the battery power to the ignition. That way I could
>de-energize the battery contactor opening all circuits except the ignition.
>Is this close to what you mean by your post?
Battery contactors and all other controls for more than
5A feeders should unhook right at the battery. It would
be best if anything larger than 5A did not venture more than
a few inches from the battery location before it hits
a pilot controlled disconnect.
See this hypothetical:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/batbus.pdf
Here I show a battery bus and a battery contactor
right next to the battery. A FAT wire comes off the
contactor to the starter contactor and main bus.
A battery bus can drive a 1A protected lead of any
length to a clock . . .
. . . a 1A protected lead to the hour-meter.
. . . a 3A protected lead to a switch
for a Kettering ignition.
. . . a 7A protected lead gets a local disconnect
relay for the e-bus alternate feed that's burdened
with big transmitter and/or perhaps gyros. This could
be a 10A feeder. The point is that long, always hot
wires protected at over 5A need pilot controlled
disconnect in close proximity to the bus.
. . . if you're fuel injected and need a hi-pressure
squirter fused at 10A, it gets a relay too.
. . . a 1A courtesy light can go as far as needs
be with no special concerns.
This is what I'd have to do to sell this or a
similar system to the FAA . . . it has to do
with crash safety. Always hot wires from the
battery are either pilot controllable or
limited to 5A or less. I've seen them allow
breakers but fuses are MUCH faster and offer
even greater safety.
We've got a lot of builders who have built
some pretty hefty e-busses . . . with bigger
than 5A feeders for the alternate feed path.
If it were my airplane, I'd use the local
disconnect relay as shown for a budget of
about 100 mA to keep the relay closed. Or
better yet, a solid state relay with a 10 mA
budget.
If I understand your hypothetical, you were
going to have a LONG, FAT feeder from the
battery coming forward to the battery contactor.
This WOULD function but it's not recommended.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
Bob,
Before you remove the design philosophy from Chap 12, I'd like to mention
this: I fly missions with CAP, which is gung-ho on "wig-wag" landing-taxi
light flashing. Was no problem until leaving mission base after an all day
search, stopped in Austin for supper, came back after dark to fly back east
of Houston, and "no Taxi & landing lites" - bulbs burned out.
No maintenance avail, spent the night and returned home in daylight next
day.
That airplane had a reputation for "eating" light bulbs when the wig-wag
system was used.
Would not one or the other "babying"/"pampering" design philosophies be
helpful in making those ridiculous incandescent bulbs (C-182 no have STC or
whatever for halogen bulbs and fixtures) last longer?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
>
> >
> >
> >Wouldn't it be easier on the switches and/or relays (or SSR's in my
> >case) to have these limiters to keep the current in check on circuits
> >like my 4 75W taxi/landing lights? I would think the life of the
> >contacts would improve?
>
> How big is 'improve' . . . if the rated performance of
> the switch is tens of thousands of operations with
> a resistive load and drops to, say 2,000 operations
> with a lamp load . . . how long will it take you
> to wear out the switch? If you fly twice a week
> and get 4 operations per flight, you'll get
> a calendar service life of more than 5 years.
>
> For the most part, switches in light airplanes die
> of old age and not from in-service operational
> stresses . . . no matter how you load them. I fly
> airplanes pushing 40 years old with the original,
> 10A resistive rated landing light switches humming
> right along.
>
> Keep-warm and inrush-limiting have a nice ring
> to them intellectually. I've designed inrush
> limiters for 200A a/c compressor motors that have
> 1200A inrush capabilities . . . to keep from
> bumping the bus too hard on a biz-jet . . . aside
> from this special case, I have yet to identify
> much value for incorporating this feature in
> a light aircraft. This design philosophy will be
> removed from the next revision to chapter 12.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Colorado Seminar Date Set |
Just got word from some folks in Englewood that they
DO wish to host a weekend seminar in Colorado . . . I'd
about given up on them, the date we'd discussed is
only 6 weeks away. However, they think we can get enough
people signed up in that time so I've posted the event
reservation at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/Englewood.html
. . . anyone on the list interested in this program
is invited to check it out.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
Okay. now I think I got it....
I didn't want to have to run more wires from the panel back to the battery
in the tail cone, but what you have shown makes sense and looks a lot safer
than what I actually have now. (BTW, This is not hypothetical but a flying
RV6A....uhm, well until that alternator OV'd last month.)
Existing now is one 'unprotected' fat wire running about 10 feet from
battery to contactor behind the panel then on to the starter and then
alternator... I don't really like having that always hot fat wire under my
arm. This needs to have a contactor like the S701-1 at the battery
location. I then need to add a battery bus next to the battery. Then I need
to add a fused lead for the ignition coils and other leads if greater than 5
or perhaps 7A would be pilot controllable contactors. (i.e. for the
essential bus if > 7A )
Okay, so I will need to add a contactor or two, a fuse block and some more
wires but it is starting to look "cleaner" in spite of the additional
wiring...
Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
>
> >
> >Hi Bob,
> >
> >Sorry to belabor this.
> >
> >I'm not real clear on how to do what you are suggesting...
> >
> >I thought it important to be able to isolate the battery. It is located
> >behind the occupants in the tail cone. Currently the Battery disconnect
is
> >in front of the occupants under the panel. That leaves the battery lead
> >running under one of the occupants arms. It just seemed to make sense
that
> >one should be able to cut the power from this main battery lead in the
event
> >it were to short out in the cabin.
>
> Sure . . there's a BATTERY MASTER contactor right at the
> battery. Open the battery master switch and everything
> but the battery bus goes cold. You have a battery bus right
> at the battery location too. Low current feeds (FAA likes to
> see 5A or less, I'm comfortable with 7A if fused, not breakered)
> drive directly from the battery bus. If you have higher current
> needs, then a mini-contactor, or fat-relay (like the S704 or
> it's solid state equal) is used to make feeds larger than
> 7A cold right at the bus. Your e-bus alternate feed comes
> from the battery bus, your engine dependent needs come from
> the battery bus.
>
>
> >But if this is not really that risky then it would seem that my current
> >configuration is acceptable with the disconnect contactor under the
panel.
> >I could extend the hot side of the contactor to an ignition switch that
> >would provide the battery power to the ignition. That way I could
> >de-energize the battery contactor opening all circuits except the
ignition.
> >Is this close to what you mean by your post?
>
> Battery contactors and all other controls for more than
> 5A feeders should unhook right at the battery. It would
> be best if anything larger than 5A did not venture more than
> a few inches from the battery location before it hits
> a pilot controlled disconnect.
>
> See this hypothetical:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/batbus.pdf
>
> Here I show a battery bus and a battery contactor
> right next to the battery. A FAT wire comes off the
> contactor to the starter contactor and main bus.
>
> A battery bus can drive a 1A protected lead of any
> length to a clock . . .
>
> . . . a 1A protected lead to the hour-meter.
>
> . . . a 3A protected lead to a switch
> for a Kettering ignition.
>
> . . . a 7A protected lead gets a local disconnect
> relay for the e-bus alternate feed that's burdened
> with big transmitter and/or perhaps gyros. This could
> be a 10A feeder. The point is that long, always hot
> wires protected at over 5A need pilot controlled
> disconnect in close proximity to the bus.
>
> . . . if you're fuel injected and need a hi-pressure
> squirter fused at 10A, it gets a relay too.
>
> . . . a 1A courtesy light can go as far as needs
> be with no special concerns.
>
> This is what I'd have to do to sell this or a
> similar system to the FAA . . . it has to do
> with crash safety. Always hot wires from the
> battery are either pilot controllable or
> limited to 5A or less. I've seen them allow
> breakers but fuses are MUCH faster and offer
> even greater safety.
>
> We've got a lot of builders who have built
> some pretty hefty e-busses . . . with bigger
> than 5A feeders for the alternate feed path.
> If it were my airplane, I'd use the local
> disconnect relay as shown for a budget of
> about 100 mA to keep the relay closed. Or
> better yet, a solid state relay with a 10 mA
> budget.
>
> If I understand your hypothetical, you were
> going to have a LONG, FAT feeder from the
> battery coming forward to the battery contactor.
> This WOULD function but it's not recommended.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>With respect to the recommended halogen taxi/landing lights, how do they
>compare to production aircraft lights in terms of lighting ability? Do you
>measure that in terms of candlepower and angular spread at a distance? What
>are reasonable standards for illumination in terms of approach speed? Even
>the GE4509 seems to me to be much brighter at a distance than an automobile
>halogen light or the hid light.
ANYTHING halogen with the same wattage rating outperforms ANYTHING
non-halogen. The 4509 is more tightly focused. It was originally
developed for farm tractors and was picked up by the aviation
folks when they bolted the first generators on in the 40's
There's nothing magic about light output or pattern for
landing lights in the FARS until you get into flight for
hire operations. Part 23 only speaks to how an installed
light shall operate with these words:
Sec. 23.1383 Taxi and landing lights.
Each taxi and landing light must be designed and installed so that:
(a) No dangerous glare is visible to the pilots.
(b) The pilot is not seriously affected by halation.
(c) It provides enough light for night operations.
(d) It does not cause a fire hazard in any configuration.
Part 91 goes further to say that you only need to have
a landing light if you're doing flight for hire with these
words:
Sec. 91.205.c.4 If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing
light.
I've had builders with the limits of 18A Rotax alternators
install a 25W flood fixture (like those used in store
window displays) in each wing tip fairing pointed down
and slightly forward. These pilots recognized that the REAL
secret to good night landings was based on what you see in
your peripheral vision either side and not on what was
1000 feet down the runway in front of you.
In short, there are dozens of opportunities to fit modern,
very robust lamps to our OBAM aircraft while our friends
in certified iron have to put up with the limitations
and expense of the tractor lamps.
>Another question, if using circuit breakers with fast on tabs, what are the
>options for mounting the tabs on a stock brass buss bar?
Can't recommend using breakers with fast-on tabs. If you want
breakers, you need to go with screw terminals to facilitate bussing
input sides of breaker rows together with strips of brass. In this
case, ring terminals are used to take the feeders out to powered
devices.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Before you remove the design philosophy from Chap 12, I'd like to mention
>this: I fly missions with CAP, which is gung-ho on "wig-wag" landing-taxi
>light flashing. Was no problem until leaving mission base after an all day
>search, stopped in Austin for supper, came back after dark to fly back east
>of Houston, and "no Taxi & landing lites" - bulbs burned out.
> No maintenance avail, spent the night and returned home in daylight next
>day.
>
>That airplane had a reputation for "eating" light bulbs when the wig-wag
>system was used.
>
>Would not one or the other "babying"/"pampering" design philosophies be
>helpful in making those ridiculous incandescent bulbs (C-182 no have STC or
>whatever for halogen bulbs and fixtures) last longer?
Keep-warm and/or inrush limiting doesn't help with
bulb life for wigwag ops. I did some bench testing with
several sealed beam lamps. After the initial inrush
from cold, the lamp doesn't cool off enough between
successive flashes to experience elevated inrush
for each flash.
Certified ships have crappy bulbs and they just don't
last compared to modern automotive lamps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | PM Alternator run ok without battery? |
I have a John Deere supplied 20 Amp PM Dynamo and regulator and want to verify
that they will operate okay after the battery is disconnected. I plan on using
the B&C Perment Magnet Alternator Over Voltage modual with noise filter:
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PmOVdesc.html
Since the internally regulated Denso alternator recently OV'd, I thought that perhaps
the PM would be a better full time power supply that it is supposed to
be able to run okay when the battery dies.
Any thoughts as to the best way to configure this and also to verify that it works
okay without the battery?
Thanks,
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
Bob,
When you say "turn off the battery master & 'lectric dependent engine should
keep running" - I would have the engine computer (ign & fuel inj) & fuel
injection pumps wired to battery bus with their own individual ON-OFF
switches. (& battery bus is the big brass bar with terminals bolted to both
sides of firewall).
-So, these two critical functions don't depend on any battery
contactor - or alternator - just at least one good battery and their own
switches getting power from the battery bus.
Is that the idea?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
>
> >
> >I have an RV6A with a Chevy V6 engine that has an ellectrically depenent
> >ignition system (coil & contacts). In the event of alternator failure I
want
> >to maximize battery life for the ignition system. The battery is in the
> >tail cone.
> Electrically dependent engine stuff should run
> directly from the battery bus.
>
> If you walk up to a J-3 and flip the mag switches
> ON, the engine is HOT and that airplane doesn't
> even have an electrical system. If that's an
> acceptable condition, why not wire your electrically
> outfitted aircraft for the same behavior?
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd like to be able to shut
> of the battery master and e-bus alternate feed any
> time there's bad smells in the cockpit WITHOUT having
> the engine stop.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics ISP Upgrade COMPLETED! |
Dear Listers,
I just wanted to send out a quick note to let everyone know that the 1.5Mb
T1 connection upgrade went smoothly today. They brought up the new line
and router yesterday on a test subnet and today the ISP switched over
connectivity about 12 noon with little to no incident. I just finished
some performance testing, and it appears that actual throughput and
interactive response is noticeably improved as advertised!
Enjoy!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | instrument protection |
| From: | Joel Harding <cajole76(at)ispwest.com> |
I was talking to a rep from E. I. about hooking up my engine analyzer a
couple of days ago, and he mentioned that it should be isolated from
the starter circuit during start.
This may be similar to the discussion on protecting avionics from the
starter circuit, but could I get some suggestions on how best to
achieve this?
Any comments will be appreciated.
Joel Harding
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fellowsw" <fellows.w(at)ewcapital.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
Bob
Thanks for your prompt reply. I don't contribute often since I am still in
the early planning stages but this my chance to say thank you very much for
your work. You are a truly amazing in terms of knowledge, appreciation of
the OBAM aircraft group and generosity with you time.
I am not concerned about meeting FAR's since mine will be OBAM. I am used to
flying at night into uncontrolled airports, in rain or snow and even
occasionally into grass strips or farm roads. I typically fly a Cessna 210
type aircraft with approximately 100 knot approach speed and 2,000 ft
landing distance. When thinking about my experience, the main concerns are
(i) short term illumination for touchdown, (ii) being able to see rain or
snow on a runway and (iii) animals on or near the runway. I was hoping to
have something like you have on fast twins which I believe is about
200,000-300,000 candlepower. My experience seems to tell me that the
lighting on a 210 is not enough but that on a fast twin is ok. I would
definitely prefer halogen to certified lamps for reliability and to hid
lights for visibility in high traffic areas. I was planning to do the
physics myself but a quick look seemed to show the 55W bulbs were well short
of this. I was hoping that someone out there had done the physics
calculations and could share them. I was also hoping to find something in 28
volts.
Best Regards
Walter Fellows
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: to Schottky or not to Shottkey, that IS |
thw question . . .
Bob,
My response was not to argue with you. In fact I agree with your
position. I would even add to your arguments that a low forward voltage
drop is typical for Schottky diodes with low breakdown voltage, which
might require some sort of protection of the low voltage diode to play
it safe. That makes their use more difficult than that for a regular
rectifier diode. And for Schottky diodes with a high breakdown voltage
you find that the forward voltage drop is not much different than that
for regular junction diodes, which makes the main benefit of low forward
voltage drop questionable.
But Shannon said: "...considering Eric's diode is the only one readily
available that will handle the 20A...." I wanted to show that there
are many of such diodes around.
Jerzy
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Schottky diodes for 20A are in fact quite common, but not in Radio
>>Shack. Check www.digikey.com. Search for International Rectifier
>>Schottky rectifiers. You will find at least a hundred of different
>>Schottky diodes with max current anywhere between 20A and 400A.
>>The diodes between 20A and 40A cost roughly between $1 and $3, depending
>>on voltage . Those good for 40A to 80A cost anywhere between $3 and $10.
>>Digikey accepts telephone or email orders.
>>Jerzy
>>
>>
>
> Availability wasn't the driving consideration. I've used
> Schottky diodes for years in designs where package didn't
> particularly matter and unique performance characteristics
> were desired.
>
> The decision to recommend the bridge rectifier assembly
> came from the fact that it mounts easily as supplied . . .
> no brackets, insulating washers or solder joints required.
> They come fitted with 1/4" fast-on tabs ready to bolt to
> some handy surface between the e-bus and main-bus fuse
> blocks. No effort other than to buy it, bolt it and wire
> it. Diode arrays rated up to 35 amps in this package
> were readily available from many suppliers.
>
> Eric's product requires his manufacturing time to put
> the raw device into a user friendly package. Fine
> if you need the unique performance of the Schottky
> device. There's nothing wrong with using this
> product in your airplane . . . I'd like for
> folks to make the decision based on knowledgeable
> evaluation of fact and not upon shop-worn myths
> or marketing hype.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Herminghaus <catignano(at)everyday.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
Looks very interesting. Where can it be purchased.
John Herminghaus
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Life IS a real issue with aviation lamps which tend to be
>
> old technology, relatively short lived and expensive when
> compared to modern automotive and commercial halogen
> lamps. If it were my airplane and I could live with a
> leading edge installation, I'd work really hard to get
> this lamp installed in my leading edges:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/4352.JPG
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
Bob,
Where can I find more info about the 55w Landing/Taxi lights shown in the link
you provided? Vendor? Price?
Thanks,
RV-7A N174JL reserved
Jack Lockamy
www.jacklockamy.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>Bob,
>
>Where can I find more info about the 55w Landing/Taxi lights shown in the
>link you provided? Vendor? Price?
They're automotive products . . . found everywhere. Walmart,
Autozone, speed and sport automotive shops, J.C. Whitney
etc. etc. There's no such thing as a "landing light" . . .
there are LOTS of lighting products that can be properly
considered for the task and they're all around you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>Looks very interesting. Where can it be purchased.
Car parts store . . . #4352 It was only used
on a few years of GM vehicles . . . low volume
product so expect to pay about $20 per bulb. But
they are the right size, shape and technology. Should
last a VERY long time in your airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: to Schottky or not to Shottkey, |
that IS thw question . . .
>
>
>Bob,
>My response was not to argue with you. In fact I agree with your
>position. I would even add to your arguments that a low forward voltage
>drop is typical for Schottky diodes with low breakdown voltage, which
>might require some sort of protection of the low voltage diode to play
>it safe. That makes their use more difficult than that for a regular
>rectifier diode. And for Schottky diodes with a high breakdown voltage
>you find that the forward voltage drop is not much different than that
>for regular junction diodes, which makes the main benefit of low forward
>voltage drop questionable.
>
>But Shannon said: "...considering Eric's diode is the only one readily
>available that will handle the 20A...." I wanted to show that there
>are many of such diodes around.
No argument perceived or intended my frined . . . just making sure all
the simple-ideas surrounding the subject were laid out for
review . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>When you say "turn off the battery master & 'lectric dependent engine should
>keep running" - I would have the engine computer (ign & fuel inj) & fuel
>injection pumps wired to battery bus with their own individual ON-OFF
>switches. (& battery bus is the big brass bar with terminals bolted to both
>sides of firewall).
Battery bus is a fuse block like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/fuseblks.jpg
or a row of breakers tied together with a strip of brass
just like the rows of breakers in every certified airplane.
You mount the fuse block or mini-breaker panel right next
to the battery with shortest practical leads for the always-
hot feed between battery and bus.
> -So, these two critical functions don't depend on any battery
>contactor - or alternator - just at least one good battery and their own
>switches getting power from the battery bus.
>
>Is that the idea?
That's the way I would do it . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Colorado Seminar Date Set |
Just got word from some folks in Englewood that they
DO wish to host a weekend seminar in Colorado . . . I'd
about given up on them, the date we'd discussed is
only 6 weeks away. However, they think we can get enough
people signed up in that time so I've posted the event
reservation at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/Englewood.html
. . . anyone on the list interested in this program
is invited to check it out.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for your prompt reply. I don't contribute often since I am still in
>the early planning stages but this my chance to say thank you very much for
>your work. You are a truly amazing in terms of knowledge, appreciation of
>the OBAM aircraft group and generosity with you time.
>
>I am not concerned about meeting FAR's since mine will be OBAM. I am used to
>flying at night into uncontrolled airports, in rain or snow and even
>occasionally into grass strips or farm roads. I typically fly a Cessna 210
>type aircraft with approximately 100 knot approach speed and 2,000 ft
>landing distance. When thinking about my experience, the main concerns are
>(i) short term illumination for touchdown, (ii) being able to see rain or
>snow on a runway and (iii) animals on or near the runway. I was hoping to
>have something like you have on fast twins which I believe is about
>200,000-300,000 candlepower. My experience seems to tell me that the
>lighting on a 210 is not enough but that on a fast twin is ok. I would
>definitely prefer halogen to certified lamps for reliability and to hid
>lights for visibility in high traffic areas. I was planning to do the
>physics myself but a quick look seemed to show the 55W bulbs were well short
>of this. I was hoping that someone out there had done the physics
>calculations and could share them. I was also hoping to find something in 28
>volts.
You're plowing new ground here. The aviation community hasn't bothered
with it (unless you're a Boeing or Airbus) and there's too much
dis-incentive
for the managers of smaller ships to work the issue. Shucks, what we've
got has worked well for 40 years, why change?
You'll need to get catalogs from the current players in sealed beams
and then order the tech data sheets on lamps of interest. There's
not going to be a lot of choices. You might call out to your closest
airport and talk to airline maintenance mechanics. They'll have
hands-on access to replacement lamps currently favored by the
folks closest to the leading edge.
What kind of airplane are you considering and/or building?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | E.I. instruments need pampering? |
>
>I was talking to a rep from E. I. about hooking up my engine analyzer a
>couple of days ago, and he mentioned that it should be isolated from
>the starter circuit during start.
>This may be similar to the discussion on protecting avionics from the
>starter circuit, but could I get some suggestions on how best to
>achieve this?
>Any comments will be appreciated.
Ask him why. Odds are (1) he hasn't the foggiest notion as
to the physical requirements of the product and is simply
regurgitating 40 years of dogma or (2) is admitting his
product can't survive a perfectly normal operating condition
in a single engine airplane.
Your choices are few and simple. (1) put a separately switched
and pampered "avionics bus" in your airplane to accommodate
the inability of modern product to cope with simple reality,
(2) choose alternative products wherein the manufacturers
have done their homework (3) or get E.I. to step up to their
responsibility to the aviation community and put real facts
out on the table.
It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
I've forwarded a copy of this to E.I. Lets see if someone
there can explain what appears to be a confessed shortcoming
in the design and fabrication of their products.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
Just curious how to wire in a PM alternator to take over the power supply
for this scenario in the event the Battery fails. I guess another feed
would come from an essential bus that is fed by the PM alternator? Battery
fails, Pilot turns off battery ignition switch that is located between
battery and ignition then turns on alternate feed from PM???
I had a battery fail last summer in my Tiger. It has a dead cell which
caused the 60amp panel breaker to blow, with sparks! I turned off the bat
and alternator rockers and made it home on the mags. I would like to be
able to do this with the non mag ignition....
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
>
> >
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >When you say "turn off the battery master & 'lectric dependent engine
should
> >keep running" - I would have the engine computer (ign & fuel inj) & fuel
> >injection pumps wired to battery bus with their own individual ON-OFF
> >switches. (& battery bus is the big brass bar with terminals bolted to
both
> >sides of firewall).
>
>
> Battery bus is a fuse block like
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/ckrtprot/fuseblks.jpg
> or a row of breakers tied together with a strip of brass
> just like the rows of breakers in every certified airplane.
> You mount the fuse block or mini-breaker panel right next
> to the battery with shortest practical leads for the always-
> hot feed between battery and bus.
>
> > -So, these two critical functions don't depend on any battery
> >contactor - or alternator - just at least one good battery and their own
> >switches getting power from the battery bus.
> >
> >Is that the idea?
>
> That's the way I would do it . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Robinson" <jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net> |
Bob
I have a question off topic. I have a diesel car that the tach run
from an output pin on the alternator. I change alternator setup and
the new alternator uses a smaller pulley, thus turning faster
therefore the tach reads too high. The tach drive output is a voltage
increasing with RPM. Could something be put in line from the
alternator to the tach to correct this value.
If this is not appropriate for this forum I can be reached at
jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net
Jim Robinson
Glasair 79R (my other ride)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
>
>Just curious how to wire in a PM alternator to take over the power supply
>for this scenario in the event the Battery fails.
Properly maintained batteries do not fail.
> I guess another feed
>would come from an essential bus that is fed by the PM alternator? Battery
>fails, Pilot turns off battery ignition switch that is located between
>battery and ignition then turns on alternate feed from PM???
>
>I had a battery fail last summer in my Tiger. It has a dead cell which
>caused the 60amp panel breaker to blow, with sparks! I turned off the bat
>and alternator rockers and made it home on the mags. I would like to be
>able to do this with the non mag ignition....
That's a common problem with certified ships that drag
antiquated technologies along on every flight. That 60A
breaker should be a current limiter on firewall. The
battery should be an RG device replaced when capacity
falls below useful levels. You're worrying about a situation
in a certified ship that need not happen in your OBAM
aircraft.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
I would like to build the LVM myself but I don't want the flashing light
option. How do I modify this circuit...
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
... to sink current from an LED. I already have a light box planned out and
it is full of LED's that are powered internally so I need all of my triggers
to sink the current to ground.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob
>I have a question off topic. I have a diesel car that the tach run
>from an output pin on the alternator. I change alternator setup and
>the new alternator uses a smaller pulley, thus turning faster
>therefore the tach reads too high. The tach drive output is a voltage
>increasing with RPM. Could something be put in line from the
>alternator to the tach to correct this value.
>If this is not appropriate for this forum I can be reached at
>jbr(at)hitechnetworks.net
It's not a voltage amplitude but a frequency. The frequency of AC
is a function of shaft RPM of alternator. You'll need a
"ratiometric frequency changer" which is not difficult to build but
it's not an off-the-shelf device either. I've built these.
Had to adapt a 25 hp variable dive system to a new tachometer
about 25 years ago. The simplest thing to do is put some thin
strips of tape on face of instrument at the 1000 rpm marks
and do a mental interpolation for intermediate readings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
In a message dated 04/03/03 07:28:19 AM, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
>=A0 modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
>=A0 about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
>=A0 are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
>=A0 suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
>
the installation instructions for the JPI 700 say the same thing. I've
never installed one on an avionics bus and don't intend to. If it fails,
send it back for warranty. If enough get sent back, they'll fix the
problem.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM Alternator run ok without battery? |
Ned,
I don't think there is any issue about "the PM alternator working properly
without the battery". That's the way they work.
Someone help me if that's not correct.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: <315(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator run ok without battery?
>
> I have a John Deere supplied 20 Amp PM Dynamo and regulator and want to
verify that they will operate okay after the battery is disconnected. I
plan on using the B&C Perment Magnet Alternator Over Voltage modual with
noise filter:
>
> http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PmOVdesc.html
>
> Since the internally regulated Denso alternator recently OV'd, I thought
that perhaps the PM would be a better full time power supply that it is
supposed to be able to run okay when the battery dies.
>
> Any thoughts as to the best way to configure this and also to verify that
it works okay without the battery?
>
> Thanks,
> Ned
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lonnwood" <lonnwood(at)msn.com> |
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that often
bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap automotive
tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf pickup would
work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for an industrial
system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
The speed sensor from the transmission of a car with an electronic
speedometer might be adapted. Aftermarket speed sensors are also
available. You could then buy an aftermarket electronic speedo that can
be set at any ratio you want. 50 mph would be 5000 rpm or 500 rpm or
whatever fits the speed range of your cutter head. I bought a VDO
speedo once and you could set it by either hitting the button at the
beginning and end of a mile, or you could manually set the pulses per
mile. I'm suggesting using a speedo simply because I'm not aware of any
aftermarket tach's with the same adjustment capability.
Dave in Wichita
>
>
> At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor
that
> often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a
cheap
> automotive tach
> to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
> pickup would work for this? This is something I will
> have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay
for
> an industrial system.
> Thanks,
> Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
>
>At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
>often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
>automotive tach
>to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
>pickup would work for this? This is something I will
>have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
>an industrial system.
>Thanks,
There are a number of approaches to measure speed
but I'll suggest that if you're wanting to provide
a presentation to the operator to manually adjust
feed rates, monitoring current is more appropriate.
I suspect the motor is a 3-phase induction device.
You can put a current transformer over one of the
three phases and display the resulting current on
a meter at the operating position.
There are hundreds of companies that make these parts.
You need to fine out what the full load current per
phase is for the motor. Pick a transformer with a
full scale rating equal to or greater than the
motor's full load current.
Instrumentation grade transformers are typically
$30. You drive an panel AC ammeter with the output
of the transformer. The panel meter can be located
some distance away from the current transformer which
would be somewhere near the motor.
Here's one source of transformers:
http://www.crmagnetics.com/newprod/ctransformersg.asp
After a little observation of current vs. stall
tendencies, the operator will quickly learn how
much load can be put on the saw without pushing
it over the hump and onto the back side of it's
speed/torque curve.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery bus architecture |
>
>Okay. now I think I got it....
>
>I didn't want to have to run more wires from the panel back to the battery
>in the tail cone, but what you have shown makes sense and looks a lot safer
>than what I actually have now. (BTW, This is not hypothetical but a flying
>RV6A....uhm, well until that alternator OV'd last month.)
>
>Existing now is one 'unprotected' fat wire running about 10 feet from
>battery to contactor behind the panel then on to the starter and then
>alternator... I don't really like having that always hot fat wire under my
>arm. This needs to have a contactor like the S701-1 at the battery
>location. I then need to add a battery bus next to the battery. Then I need
>to add a fused lead for the ignition coils and other leads if greater than 5
>or perhaps 7A would be pilot controllable contactors. (i.e. for the
>essential bus if > 7A )
>
>Okay, so I will need to add a contactor or two, a fuse block and some more
>wires but it is starting to look "cleaner" in spite of the additional
>wiring...
>
>Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out,
>Ned
No problem, that's what the list is all about . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM Alternator run ok without battery? |
I might be wrong but I think the only issue is that you need some power to
get the Aux Alternator relay closed and then once the alternator is online
it will stay online with or without the battery. Somebody correct me if I
am misunderstanding this.
The obvious solution is to use a switch instead of the relay but then you
have to run that long wire from the alternator to the panel and long powered
wires that cannot be powered off from inside the aircraft are to be avoided
if possible. Except for the low current battery buss circuits that were
discussed in a recent thread. The relay can be located physically close to
the alternator and thus allows it to be disconnected remotely.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator run ok without battery?
>
> Ned,
>
> I don't think there is any issue about "the PM alternator working properly
> without the battery". That's the way they work.
>
> Someone help me if that's not correct.
>
> David
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <315(at)cox.net>
> To: "Aeroelectric-List(at)Matronics.Com"
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM Alternator run ok without battery?
>
>
> >
> > I have a John Deere supplied 20 Amp PM Dynamo and regulator and want to
> verify that they will operate okay after the battery is disconnected. I
> plan on using the B&C Perment Magnet Alternator Over Voltage modual with
> noise filter:
> >
> > http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PmOVdesc.html
> >
> > Since the internally regulated Denso alternator recently OV'd, I thought
> that perhaps the PM would be a better full time power supply that it is
> supposed to be able to run okay when the battery dies.
> >
> > Any thoughts as to the best way to configure this and also to verify
that
> it works okay without the battery?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ned
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LVM Questions |
>
>
>I would like to build the LVM myself but I don't want the flashing light
>option. How do I modify this circuit...
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
See http://216.55.140.222/temp/9005-615.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
Seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had about
strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of 7A. I
imagine it's less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded cable
that comes with the strobe kit is 3 conductor 18 gauge, which seems like
way overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that I'm
left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
the single power supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded suffice?
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | E.I. instruments need pampering? |
I tend to agree. The only component that I've seen that I think could
really have a problem is an EFIS that runs some sort of operating system
that has to boot up. The SFS EFIS I'm using has this exact problem...if
the voltage gets low enough to cause it to reset (~8.5 volts it appears
to not come on) and if its at the exact right point in the boot sequence
where it is opening and closing config files, it could actually mess up.
Most of the other components, such as the JPI and EI, really won't have
an issue I don't think. Most of the salesman just regurgitate the
hogwash they heard for 40 years, just like Bob said.
The only way to know is to just call them and find someone
knowledgeable. I called on several of my components per Bob's
suggestion, and found the only one with a real concern was the EFIS due
to its "booting up".
Since the EFIS PFD is one of my essential pieces, my way around this was
to create a hybrid avionics and e-buss together, with an alt feed switch
directly from battery. At first Bob was against this, but I think he
has since accepted it as the best solution for the given problem I was
presented with in dealing with the pampered EFIS.
Good luck.
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Aucountry(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E.I. instruments need pampering?
In a message dated 04/03/03 07:28:19 AM, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
>=A0 modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
>=A0 about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
>=A0 are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
>=A0 suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
>
the installation instructions for the JPI 700 say the same thing. I've
never installed one on an avionics bus and don't intend to. If it
fails,
send it back for warranty. If enough get sent back, they'll fix the
problem.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
One could buy and optical tach and aim at a rotating part that has a white
strip on it. Hobby shops have them very reasonable, Might have to adapt a
wall pig for continuous power.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
>
> The speed sensor from the transmission of a car with an electronic
> speedometer might be adapted. Aftermarket speed sensors are also
> available. You could then buy an aftermarket electronic speedo that can
> be set at any ratio you want. 50 mph would be 5000 rpm or 500 rpm or
> whatever fits the speed range of your cutter head. I bought a VDO
> speedo once and you could set it by either hitting the button at the
> beginning and end of a mile, or you could manually set the pulses per
> mile. I'm suggesting using a speedo simply because I'm not aware of any
> aftermarket tach's with the same adjustment capability.
>
> Dave in Wichita
>
>
> >
> >
> > At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor
> that
> > often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a
> cheap
> > automotive tach
> > to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
> > pickup would work for this? This is something I will
> > have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay
> for
> > an industrial system.
> > Thanks,
> > Lonnie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe wiring |
>
>
>Seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had about
>strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of 7A. I
>imagine it's less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded cable
>that comes with the strobe kit is 3 conductor 18 gauge, which seems like
>way overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that I'm
>left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
>the single power supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded suffice?
First, the current draw figure is from the 14v bus . . . and as
you properly guessed, that is a peak value. This is not related
to current that flows in the wires out to flash tubes. If your
power supply delivers 20 joules of energy (20 watt seconds) to
each tube per flash you can assume the flash happens in about 2 milli-
seconds. Therefore, peak power to the tube is 20/.002 or 10,000 watts.
The capacitors in the power supply charge up to about 300 volts
so peak current to the tube during flash time is 10,000/300
or 33 Amps. Wire that appears to be heavier-than-necessary is
indeed appropriate to reduce loss of energy that you'd really
like to see applied to the tube and not warming up wires in
the wings. The designers would probably have been happier with
16 AWG shielded but 18 is a not-too-whimpy compromise. 22 AWG
would definitely be too small.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff(at)attbi.com> |
You might try a bike shop. They make speedometers that run off of
magnets that are attached to the wheel. They are made for low rpm but
maybe you can attach the magnet some where the motor speed has been
reduced.
Another option would be the electronic tacks that are made to monitor
propeller rpm. They work on the principle that there is a white mark on
the propeller some where.
If the motor is a gas engine rather than electric, then you should be
able to get a tach at any auto parts store. They are triggered by a lead
to the low side of the coil.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lonnwood
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
automotive tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
pickup would work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
an industrial system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff(at)attbi.com> |
One more idea, Auto speedometers on older cars worked on the principal
that 60 Mph was 1000 rpm of the spedo shaft.(newer ones may work the
same way but I am not current in that field) You might be able to get a
junk yard speedometer with the cable and hook that up to the motor. Gee
I am sawing wood at 180 mph .
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lonnwood
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
automotive tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
pickup would work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
an industrial system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Off topic-tach |
The bike one is good but doesn't the current go up as the load increases? A
cheap snap a round ammeter might do everything you need.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Schiff" <tomschiff(at)attbi.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
>
> You might try a bike shop. They make speedometers that run off of
> magnets that are attached to the wheel. They are made for low rpm but
> maybe you can attach the magnet some where the motor speed has been
> reduced.
>
> Another option would be the electronic tacks that are made to monitor
> propeller rpm. They work on the principle that there is a white mark on
> the propeller some where.
>
> If the motor is a gas engine rather than electric, then you should be
> able to get a tach at any auto parts store. They are triggered by a lead
> to the low side of the coil.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> lonnwood
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
>
>
> At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
> often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
> automotive tach
> to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
> pickup would work for this? This is something I will
> have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
> an industrial system.
> Thanks,
> Lonnie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Current draw of common devices? |
Its getting to the time when I need to draw up a schedule of all the
electric devices on the RV I am building and work out the wiring. First off
I want to list the devices (radio / wing leveller / instruments / lamps etc)
and their current drain. Being lazy I wondered if anyone knew of one place
where the common devices are already listed so I do not have to find the
spec of each.
Thanks, Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
Hi Group,
I tried to have my transponder/blind encoder certified today but we couldn't
get a signal out of it. I was thinking that the first step in trouble
shooting is to see if the transpnder in mode A is transmitting (after I
recheck the antenna coax) and wondered where I could get an RF power meter
to check if there is anything coming out of the antenna. Any one have any
thoughts? Any suggestions are welcome. BTW, the xpndr does have power
going to it and it does turn on ok. Thanks in advance for any help.
Bill
Glasair
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
Get some reflective tape and an eye to see it and a cheap little PLC to
use as a counter. Should be able to be had for under 500 bucks I'd say.
If you wanted, you could use the PLC to control the whole saw and
improve the system I'm sure.
(sorry if I lost you, controls is what I do day in day out)
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Schiff
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
You might try a bike shop. They make speedometers that run off of
magnets that are attached to the wheel. They are made for low rpm but
maybe you can attach the magnet some where the motor speed has been
reduced.
Another option would be the electronic tacks that are made to monitor
propeller rpm. They work on the principle that there is a white mark on
the propeller some where.
If the motor is a gas engine rather than electric, then you should be
able to get a tach at any auto parts store. They are triggered by a lead
to the low side of the coil.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lonnwood
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off topic-tach
At work I run a sawmill that has a cutter head with a 150 HP motor that
often bogs down and stalls. I was thinking of somehow rigging up a cheap
automotive tach
to monitor it. Does anybody have any idea what kind of off the shelf
pickup would work for this? This is something I will
have to buy, will make my job easier. Management is too cheap to pay for
an industrial system.
Thanks,
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
What will happen if I leave it at 22-3? I mean, I understand the
physics of steady state stuff, but this is happening so quick that I'm
wondering if the wire will actually heat up and melt, or will I just
loose some output of the lights, or (most likely) both?
This will be a fun project to fix. :(
---
Shannon Knoepflein <---> kycshann(at)kyol.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: strobe wiring
>
>
>Seeing the strobe power supply reminded me of a question I had about
>strobe wiring. The strobe power supply is said to draw a max of 7A. I
>imagine it's less than that. The supplied 3 conductor shielded cable
>that comes with the strobe kit is 3 conductor 18 gauge, which seems
like
>way overkill (and quite cumbersome to run in the tight confines that
I'm
>left with), especially considering there are 3 bulbs being powered from
>the single power supply. In your opinion, would 22-3 shielded
suffice?
First, the current draw figure is from the 14v bus . . . and as
you properly guessed, that is a peak value. This is not related
to current that flows in the wires out to flash tubes. If your
power supply delivers 20 joules of energy (20 watt seconds) to
each tube per flash you can assume the flash happens in about 2
milli-
seconds. Therefore, peak power to the tube is 20/.002 or 10,000
watts.
The capacitors in the power supply charge up to about 300 volts
so peak current to the tube during flash time is 10,000/300
or 33 Amps. Wire that appears to be heavier-than-necessary is
indeed appropriate to reduce loss of energy that you'd really
like to see applied to the tube and not warming up wires in
the wings. The designers would probably have been happier with
16 AWG shielded but 18 is a not-too-whimpy compromise. 22 AWG
would definitely be too small.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Pack" <jpack(at)igs3.com> |
| Subject: | Off topic - TV antenna |
Does anyone know if those TV antennas that you plug into the electric outlet
really work? (purportedly using the wiring in the walls as the antenna)?
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fellowsw" <fellows.w(at)ewcapital.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
-----Original Message-----
Thanks for the tip -- I will do the analysis unless someone does it first.
Put some of that university physics to use again. I am thinking about Martin
Hollman's Stallion but am not sure he is going to be able to sell enough of
them to provide a comfortable level of debugging of the design. Are there
any trucks or other vehicles that are using 28v systems? I want the 28v for
the higher power transmitters in a com radio. Based on using mostly B&C
alternators and regulators, I do not see a big cost difference in using a
28v system if you have to add a voltage doubler for the avionics.
Walter Fellows
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Off topic - TV antenna |
Depends on what you mean by "work"...
Jim Pack wrote:
>
>Does anyone know if those TV antennas that you plug into the electric outlet
>really work? (purportedly using the wiring in the walls as the antenna)?
>
>Thanks,
>Jim
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Will N. Stevenson" <willst(at)attbi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
I just installed a JPI EDM 800 in my certified aircraft using a 2 amp
breaker that comes off of the avionics bus. So, the EDM stays off during
start-up until I flip the radio master switch after start-up. Works great.
It's important on an EDM to ground it directly to the engine--maybe not so
important on an E.I.
Will (new list member)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Landing/taxi light warm up |
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Thanks for the tip -- I will do the analysis unless someone does it first.
>Put some of that university physics to use again. I am thinking about Martin
>Hollman's Stallion but am not sure he is going to be able to sell enough of
>them to provide a comfortable level of debugging of the design. Are there
>any trucks or other vehicles that are using 28v systems? I want the 28v for
>the higher power transmitters in a com radio.
Really????? Just to get the bigger transmitters? How much
do you need?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
>I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
>Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
>Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
>on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
>visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
If each flash is 21J and it happens 4x/second means power delivered
to the tubes is 84 w/sec . . . I'm skeptical that their fixtures
are really set up to handle that kind of dissipation. I wonder if
the FAA lets them do 4 x 5W pulses per flash for a total of 20 per
second . . .
>What will happen if I leave it at 22-3? I mean, I understand the
>physics of steady state stuff, but this is happening so quick that I'm
>wondering if the wire will actually heat up and melt, or will I just
>loose some output of the lights, or (most likely) both?
It doesn't work as designed . . . and to attempt
to produce some number like 70% or 60% or even
80% of design goal would be meaningless . . .
. . . you can let it go and then see if you
"like" the results.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Hi Group,
>I tried to have my transponder/blind encoder certified today but we couldn't
>get a signal out of it. I was thinking that the first step in trouble
>shooting is to see if the transpnder in mode A is transmitting (after I
>recheck the antenna coax) and wondered where I could get an RF power meter
>to check if there is anything coming out of the antenna. Any one have any
>thoughts? Any suggestions are welcome. BTW, the xpndr does have power
>going to it and it does turn on ok. Thanks in advance for any help.
>Bill
>Glasair
Average power out of a transponder is very small . . . you need
a peak reading wattmeter. THEN you have to figure out a way to
talk the transponder into replying. A bench test may be the
best way check it. A flight check would work too . . . but only
to the extent that the radar guy can 'see' you; not very quantitative.
If the tech was using a ramp tester to read your encoder, then
he would have been able to detect ANY output power. Was the
reply light reacting to the ramp tester?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
| Subject: | Current draw of common devices? |
I have a spreadsheet of my load analysis at
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair
The devices aren't all common, but it might help you to get started.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sampson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Current draw of common devices?
Its getting to the time when I need to draw up a schedule of all the
electric devices on the RV I am building and work out the wiring. First
off
I want to list the devices (radio / wing leveller / instruments / lamps
etc)
and their current drain. Being lazy I wondered if anyone knew of one
place
where the common devices are already listed so I do not have to find the
spec of each.
Thanks, Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shannon Knoepflein" <kycshann(at)kyol.net> |
I tend to agree on the 5J part. There website led me to believe that it
was 21J total, and the 4 pulses were part of that.
http://www.whelen.com/pb/11015.htm
Attached is a fax they sent me, which contradicts a little, so I'm still
trying to sort through the info.
If I understand the website and Bobs interpretation correctly (and
accept the 500V output I was told on the phone...is this reasonable?),
each pulse would be about 5.25J, which would make the current 5.3A
(5.25J/2ms/500V) instead of 21A (21J/2ms/500V) if I figure correctly.
Or it could be figured as 1 21J pulse over 400ms, which is about 0.1A.
So, if I'm figuring correctly, the average current is going to be about
0.1A, with peaks of 5.25A? That seems doable with 22-3. I guess I'm
messing it up somewhere.
Are there any risks (like melting wires) associated with letting it go?
(for now at least)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: strobe wiring
>
>
>Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
>I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
>Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
>Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
>on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
>visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
If each flash is 21J and it happens 4x/second means power delivered
to the tubes is 84 w/sec . . . I'm skeptical that their fixtures
are really set up to handle that kind of dissipation. I wonder if
the FAA lets them do 4 x 5W pulses per flash for a total of 20 per
second . . .
>What will happen if I leave it at 22-3? I mean, I understand the
>physics of steady state stuff, but this is happening so quick that I'm
>wondering if the wire will actually heat up and melt, or will I just
>loose some output of the lights, or (most likely) both?
It doesn't work as designed . . . and to attempt
to produce some number like 70% or 60% or even
80% of design goal would be meaningless . . .
. . . you can let it go and then see if you
"like" the results.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Triano" <rondefly(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Current draw of common devices? |
Steve: Try Jon Finley's site, he has a excel spreadsheet of his showing
all.
http://www.finleyweb.net/docs/Electrical-LoadAnalysis.xls
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Shannon Knoepflein
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Current draw of common devices?
-->
I have a spreadsheet of my load analysis at
http://shannon.v8eaters.com/images/lancair
The devices aren't all common, but it might help you to get started.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sampson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Current draw of common devices?
Its getting to the time when I need to draw up a schedule of all the
electric devices on the RV I am building and work out the wiring. First
off I want to list the devices (radio / wing leveller / instruments /
lamps
etc)
and their current drain. Being lazy I wondered if anyone knew of one
place where the common devices are already listed so I do not have to
find the spec of each.
Thanks, Steve.
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
>Robert L Nukolis III
>Cc: Aeroelectric
>
>Gentlemen:
>
>Electronics International Inc. has been manufacturing aircraft instruments
>for over 20 years and all of our instruments meet and/or exceed the TSO C43a
>standards set by the FAA. The UBG-16 instrument has an operating range of
>7.5 to 30 volts and a 3/10 amp draw.
>
>As in a great number of modern instruments and radios, we are using a fairly
>sophisticated power supply to drive the gas plasma display and the circuit
>boards. Since the aviation industry has not adopted the auto industry
>technique of isolating instruments and accessories from the starting circuit
>during an engine start, there is a possibility of voltage spikes in excess
>of 200 volts through the main bus during the engine start sequence. During
>the start sequence, approximately 100-300 amps is required by the starter.
>This current produces a significantly large magnetic field. When the field
>collapses, a series of voltage pulses (or ringing) will occur on the bus. A
>low battery or an engine that is hard to start can aggravate the situation,
>which is markedly different for each aircraft.
Is this a condition which is not addressed by the testing
recommendations in DO-160?
> Over 40 years ago, the
>automotive industry adopted a starter switch that turns off all electrical
>instruments as the key is turned to the start position. The aircraft
>industry adopted the "Radio Bus" or "Avionics Bus" that allows all
>electrical equipment not required during the start sequence to be turned off
>or otherwise isolated. This is the reason for the "pampered avionics bus"
>that is required by Garmin, King, Apollo, STEC, ARNAV, UPS and virtually all
>manufactures of aviation instruments.
Required or recommended?
>The "perfectly normal" operating
>condition in a single engine aircraft is well within the UBG-16 operating
>range, but the starting sequence can cause problems for most sophisticated
>electronic instruments.
I was at Cessna when the avionics master switch was born. This was
in the days of 30v germanium power transistors just finding their
way into the radios of the time. They were indeed fragile
devices. This was before DO-160 came along to guide
us in designing electronics that would withstand
any normal operation of the airplane's electrical system.
Since that time, DO-160 has been through several revisions.
It has been expanded to the extent that we're now advised as to how
to stand off effects of lightning strokes to the airframe.
>Electronics International Inc. manufactures over 40 different instruments.
>The UBG-16 is the most complex of the product line and the only one that we
>recommend be isolated from the starting sequence.
>Note: If you are operating any sophisticated electrical equipment in your
>aircraft, you need to have a bus that is able to be isolated.
Please define "sophisticated". Without a doubt I can design
some relatively simple circuits that would be vulnerable to
the stresses of ordinary operation . . . how many and what
kind of parts must be combined before the circuit becomes sophisticated?
> You can
>simply connect an appropriate switch between the main bus and the breakers
>that drive the selected equipment to allow that equipment to be turned of
>during engine start.
>
>We certainly feel that we are a capable supplier and that there are not any
>shortcomings in the design or fabrication of any of our instruments. If you
>feel that we could improve in one area or another, please feel free to make
>specific constructive suggestions.
Can you identify the magnitude, duration and energy content
of the stress that is antagonistic to your products?
May I presume that you've confirmed that the starter
is indeed a source of dangerous stresses and that
the normal course of testing to DO-160 and/or TSO
fails to account for this stress?
If you can quantify the character of the stress for which
you're unable to guarantee operation, I can be of assistance
in designing an interface suited to protection of
your product.
>Thank you,
>
>David Campbell
>Electronics International Inc.
>63296 Powell Butte Highway
>Bend, OR 97701
>Phone: (541) 318-6060
>Fax: (541) 318-7575
>Web: www.Buy-Ei.com
Your's truly,
Bob Nuckolls
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve J Hurlbut" <sjhdcl(at)kingston.net> |
| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
transponder.
I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
Steve
Rv7A
Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
Steve, are you perhaps confusing the GPS antenna with the GPS unit's
various outputs? The 327 does not know what to do with the GPS antenna
or signals, but it does know what to do with the serial output of the
GPS device (turn the unit from standby to altitude squawk mode upon
reaching 40 knots, for example). I don't know about the Tru Trak stuff,
but the company folks certainly do. It obviously uses some sort of
signal from the GPS unit to fly a course.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org MAY 31st, don't miss it!
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Steve J Hurlbut
> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 9:03 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multiple GPS feeds
>
>
> -->
>
> Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
>
> Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
>
> Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
>
> Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot
> and GTX 327 transponder. I have a GPS 35 receiver as
> recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
>
> Steve
> Rv7A
> Wiring
>
>
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: E.I. instruments need pampering? |
| From: | Joel Harding <cajole76(at)ispwest.com> |
Bob,
I asked him why it was necessary to isolate the analyzer, and he
indicated they'd had some units blow a chip during start.
Step # 3, having E I step up to their responsibilities would be my
choice out of the three you offered. I'll be interested to see what
kind of response you get.
Thanks for your assistance.
Joel Harding
On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 08:27 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> I was talking to a rep from E. I. about hooking up my engine analyzer
>> a
>> couple of days ago, and he mentioned that it should be isolated from
>> the starter circuit during start.
>> This may be similar to the discussion on protecting avionics from the
>> starter circuit, but could I get some suggestions on how best to
>> achieve this?
>> Any comments will be appreciated.
>
> Ask him why. Odds are (1) he hasn't the foggiest notion as
> to the physical requirements of the product and is simply
> regurgitating 40 years of dogma or (2) is admitting his
> product can't survive a perfectly normal operating condition
> in a single engine airplane.
>
> Your choices are few and simple. (1) put a separately switched
> and pampered "avionics bus" in your airplane to accommodate
> the inability of modern product to cope with simple reality,
> (2) choose alternative products wherein the manufacturers
> have done their homework (3) or get E.I. to step up to their
> responsibility to the aviation community and put real facts
> out on the table.
>
> It sure gets wearisome to hear of manufacturers of supposedly
> modern products still disseminating this stuff. I'm thinking
> about publishing a list of manufacturers on my website who
> are unwilling/unable to join the ranks of truly capable
> suppliers. Perhaps E.I. should be at the top of the list.
>
> I've forwarded a copy of this to E.I. Lets see if someone
> there can explain what appears to be a confessed shortcoming
> in the design and fabrication of their products.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
> If the tech was using a ramp tester to read your encoder, then
> he would have been able to detect ANY output power. Was the
> reply light reacting to the ramp tester?
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Thanks for the reply Bob. The tech was using a ramp tester to read the
blind encoder output and we couldn't get any reading of power, or altitude,
at all. As I recall, the reply light was not reacting to the ramp tester.
He had just finished my other plane so we know the ramp test unit was
working ok. We had 12.5 volts feeding the system so that should not have
caused any problem. What I want to do here is exhaust all the trouble
shooting options available to me before I take the xpnder in to have it
bench checked. It is a "yellow tagged" unit...KT 76A. The encoder is a
Ameri-King AK-350 which is new. I bought the encoder from one of the
"Coast" avionics outfits and they did the plug wiring for me. Do you have
any more ideas for me.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect |
Hi Bob,
I'm a little unsure now if my wiring diagram violates what is discussed
below? I'm using diagram Z-11 modified to include dual electronic ignition,
fuel injection pump, and dual batterys located in the rear.
The main battery bus has a hi-pressure pump (7A) and one electronic ignition
(15A) and the aux battery bus has the other electronic ignition (15A). All
three have toggle switches up front on the panel. Do these switches meet
your requirement of "pilot controlled disconnect in close proximity" or do
they need the relays shown in that hand drawn sketch at the website?
Also, my essential bus has 2 X 7A and 3 X 3A, all with switches (either
external or internal). Do I need some sort of solid state relays here
also. I'm just not sure what is meant by milliamp budgets, etc? I guess I
need a diagram.
Thanks, Rick Fogerson
RV-3 finish kit
Boise, ID
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mechanical Latching Battery Disconnect
> > . . . a 7A protected lead gets a local disconnect
> relay for the e-bus alternate feed that's burdened
> with big transmitter and/or perhaps gyros. This could
> be a 10A feeder. The point is that long, always hot
> wires protected at over 5A need pilot controlled
> disconnect in close proximity to the bus.
>
> . . . if you're fuel injected and need a hi-pressure
> squirter fused at 10A, it gets a relay too.
>
> >
> This is what I'd have to do to sell this or a
> similar system to the FAA . . . it has to do
> with crash safety. Always hot wires from the
> battery are either pilot controllable or
> limited to 5A or less. I've seen them allow
> breakers but fuses are MUCH faster and offer
> even greater safety.
>
> We've got a lot of builders who have built
> some pretty hefty e-busses . . . with bigger
> than 5A feeders for the alternate feed path.
> If it were my airplane, I'd use the local
> disconnect relay as shown for a budget of
> about 100 mA to keep the relay closed. Or
> better yet, a solid state relay with a 10 mA
> budget.
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au> |
| Subject: | LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
HI BOB and all,
Have you got any ideal, examples for LED post lights for cockpit
instrument lighting?
Thanks
Ian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
Make sure the antenna cable in the back of the transponder is seated. Had
that happen with my Bellanca on a King 76A
Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club
Newsletter Editor & EAA TIC
www.bellanca-championclub.com
We support Aeroncas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RF power
>
>
> > If the tech was using a ramp tester to read your encoder, then
> > he would have been able to detect ANY output power. Was the
> > reply light reacting to the ramp tester?
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > Thanks for the reply Bob. The tech was using a ramp tester to read the
> blind encoder output and we couldn't get any reading of power, or
altitude,
> at all. As I recall, the reply light was not reacting to the ramp tester.
> He had just finished my other plane so we know the ramp test unit was
> working ok. We had 12.5 volts feeding the system so that should not have
> caused any problem. What I want to do here is exhaust all the trouble
> shooting options available to me before I take the xpnder in to have it
> bench checked. It is a "yellow tagged" unit...KT 76A. The encoder is a
> Ameri-King AK-350 which is new. I bought the encoder from one of the
> "Coast" avionics outfits and they did the plug wiring for me. Do you have
> any more ideas for me.
> Bill
> Glasair SIIS-FT
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au> |
| Subject: | Make your own AOA indicator? Using $50 guage? |
I know it is not electric, however looks really good? (plus you could
put a LED light in it and therefore it is relevant to list.
http://www.snyder.on.ca/pages/lri.htm
Ian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
Sorry about extending the off-topic discussion, but I will certainly weigh
in with Bob on the idea of using current, not rpm as the measurement of
choice. I would bet that the motor is a 3-phase induction type and as such
the rpm will only drop about 3% from no-load to full load, a very small
range to monitor on a tach. Once the rpm drops below this the speed will
rapidly drop and the motor may likely stall. Most "real" installations I
have seen of this type have current monitors and this would be very easy to
monitor so the feed speed could be adjusted. The current will rise from
maybe 30% to 100% when going from no load to full load.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Geoff Evans <hellothaimassage(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Hall Effect Ammeters |
A few months back in the archives, Bob wrote:
-----
You can also use the hall-sensor to measure
the current in more than one wire wherein the sensor
sees the algebraic sum of all the currents. Not much
application for this in airplanes but there is ONE
two-wire opportunity. You can run the b-lead for both
the main and aux alternators through the sensor and it
will read either alternator or the sum of both should they
both happen to be on and delivering power.
----
I'm not quite sure how one could do this, as the b-leads from the different
alternators seem to go to different places. In drawing Z-13, for example, the
main b-lead goes the the starter and then the battery contactor, but the
alternate b-lead goes to the *other* side of the battery contactor.
Am I missing something, or is there a way to run two b-leads through a single
hall effect sensor when the b-leads need to go to different places?
Thanks.
-Geoff
http://tax.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Lamp" <tlamp(at)genesishcs.org> |
04/04/2003 01:11:08 PM
I was flying my new LongEZ last evening. (28 hours now)
I noticed that my VM1000 amp gauge was fluxuating from 11 amps then 8,6,4, then
back to 11 and so on. Cycling over about 1 min.
The induction pick up is inline of the charging wire off of the alt. to the battery,
2 ga. wire since it also doubles as the power to the starter,
both of which are of course out back.
Does this sound normal.
I run one Elec Ign. the usual VFR stuff and the strodes were on.
Nip alt, B&C voltage reg (LR3), ship wiring as in Z-9.
Thanks,
Terry Lamp Long EZ N977JT Ohio
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Multiple GPS feeds |
Steve,
The GPS 35 is a complete 12 channel GPS receiver, not just an
antenna. once power is applied, it finds satellites and gathers a
longitude and latitude position coordinates as well as developing a error
metric and a number of other variables that it can offer to whatever devise
it is connected to, such as a Trutrak A/P or a Chelton Flight Systems EFIS
or Control Vision's Anywhere moving map package. The interface to the GPS
35 is a RS-232 two way serial connection that reports the various
information to the above instruments. RS-232 is intended to be a
point-to-point protocol, which means one unit on each end of the
cable. Since the above mentioned units assume that there is only one
device on the other end of the cable it only sends the information that is
requested of it. So, consider this situation. If you have one GPS 35 and
you connect it to the Trutrak and also the GTX 327. The GTX 327 may only
request Lat/Lon information and never ask for any of the other data that
the unit makes available, but the Trutrak wants to also request position
error data for example. What could happen is the Trutrack would send a
command to the GPS requesting a position error message and the GPS promptly
replies. The GTX 327 is connected to the same wire and gets the position
error message same as the Trutrak but one of two things will happen. The
design engineer for the GTX 327 assumed that this would always be a
point-to-point connection and that all messages are for him only and would
attempt to decipher the "position error" message as Lat/Lon. It would
either get confused and declare an error, or worse, it would somehow
convince itself that the data string is a Lat/Lon and treat it as
such. Now everything is hosed.
Now, onto your original question, GPS antenna signals should be able to be
split and shared between GPS receivers but the signal is not real
strong. It dissipates over long cable runs and should be carefully managed
when adding additional loads to it such as making it drive two GPS's. You
can purchase GPS amplifiers for long cable runs or just to boost the signal
but you need to know what your doing because if you don't need to boost the
signal that much and you give the GPS receiver too much signal that will
cause signal distortion. A reduction in signal power to the GPS receiver
will usually result in a difficultly for the receiver to detect and acquire
as many satellites. This increases position error and can cause signal
loss conditions more often.
Sorry for the long dissertation. I am in a similar situation, with a GPS
35 driving my CFS EFIS-2000 and needing (but not wanting) a second GPS 35
to drive my Anywhere map PDA system as a backup.
good luck,
scot
>
>
>Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
>
>Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
>
>Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
>
>Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
>transponder.
>I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
>
>Steve
>Rv7A
>Wiring
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect Ammeters |
>
>
>A few months back in the archives, Bob wrote:
>
>-----
> You can also use the hall-sensor to measure
> the current in more than one wire wherein the sensor
> sees the algebraic sum of all the currents. Not much
> application for this in airplanes but there is ONE
> two-wire opportunity. You can run the b-lead for both
> the main and aux alternators through the sensor and it
> will read either alternator or the sum of both should they
> both happen to be on and delivering power.
>----
>
>I'm not quite sure how one could do this, as the b-leads from the different
>alternators seem to go to different places. In drawing Z-13, for example, the
>main b-lead goes the the starter and then the battery contactor, but the
>alternate b-lead goes to the *other* side of the battery contactor.
>
>Am I missing something, or is there a way to run two b-leads through a single
>hall effect sensor when the b-leads need to go to different places?
The hall sensor has no way of knowing where the wires
it watches goes and doesn't care. It measures the total
magnetic field around the wire(s) and converts this to
a voltage proportional to magnetic field which is in
turn proportional to the sum of currents in the wires.
Now, suppose you had a pair of wires, each carrying
5A in the same direction through the sensor. The sensor
has no way to know if it's one wire with 10A or 5 wires
with 2A. Suppose you had two wires; one carrying
10A in one direction and a second wire with 3A
in the OPPOSITE direction, the hall sensor would "see"
a field proportional to 7A and would respond appropriately.
You can run both alternator output leads through the
same sensor. If both are running, then the sensor would
report the sum total of output from both irrespective
of their sizes . . . in most cases, the alternators
do not run at the same time. In the "All-Electric-Airplane-
on-a-Budget" drawing, running both alternator feed wires
through the same sensor would allow it to read EITHER
or BOTH alternators, depending on which ones were turned
on. Given that this system is designed to operate on
alternator at a time, whatever the Amps display says
at the moment is the output load for the alternator
currently ON.
Bob . . .
>Thanks.
>-Geoff
>
>http://tax.yahoo.com
>
>
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
>
>
>HI BOB and all,
>
>Have you got any ideal, examples for LED post lights for cockpit
>instrument lighting?
This is possible but for the moment, difficult
to do practically. Output beam-width LEDs is narrow
compared to the more spherical output from lamps.
Getting an LED to illuminate a post light fixture
in the same manner as the incandescent lamp would
take some doing. The light fixtures I've purchased
from RS in the past for my LV Warn indicators appears
to have been discontinued. I'm looking for a new fixture
that gives me the nice scattering pattern in front
of the LED as the old one did . . . it's not a plug-n-
play situation across the spectrum of fixtures.
There are LEDs with sufficient light output to do
what you propose but the physics on which they
operate makes them a less than idea substitute.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "lonnwood" <lonnwood(at)msn.com> |
Thanks Bob and everybody else that responded.
Such a wealth of knowledge and experience.
I think I will look into rigging up an ammeter.
Lonnie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RSwanson <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
I built some that provide adequate light. The LEDs came from Radio Shack
and have a 180 degree light pattern. I machined reflectors from 1/2
aluminum rod tapped 8-32 and mounted with drilled brass screws with their
heads removed.
I found out they were discontinuing them and bought all I could find.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED post lights for instrument lighting?
>
> >
> >
> >HI BOB and all,
> >
> >Have you got any ideal, examples for LED post lights for cockpit
> >instrument lighting?
>
> This is possible but for the moment, difficult
> to do practically. Output beam-width LEDs is narrow
> compared to the more spherical output from lamps.
> Getting an LED to illuminate a post light fixture
> in the same manner as the incandescent lamp would
> take some doing. The light fixtures I've purchased
> from RS in the past for my LV Warn indicators appears
> to have been discontinued. I'm looking for a new fixture
> that gives me the nice scattering pattern in front
> of the LED as the old one did . . . it's not a plug-n-
> play situation across the spectrum of fixtures.
>
> There are LEDs with sufficient light output to do
> what you propose but the physics on which they
> operate makes them a less than idea substitute.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
I built mine, and I think they do a fine job
(in the basement with all the lights off I am
comfortable sitting in front of the panel,
and things look good).
I am using 3000mcd red LEDs that I got originally
from radio shack, but the last batch I bought
at all electronics.
I used plastruct that you can buy at the hobby
store. I used 3/16" tube about 1-1/2" long,
then a 3/8x1/4 rectangular tube glued on at a
right angle.
+------------------+
| |
| | <-- 3/8
+--+---+-----------+
| | \__\
| |
| |
----- LED
| |
3/16 tube->| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
---------------------------Panel
I wired up the LEDs with 1/4 watt 1K ohm resistor
and stuffed it in the rectangular area. then ran
the wires down the tube. Put some tape over one
end of the rectangular area, and filled the
rectangular tube with 5min epoxy. When the epoxy
hardened, I filed the ends round for aesthetics.
I'll probably paint them black eventually.
Because the cone of the LED light is rather narrow,
I put the LEDs quite far from the panel, and angled
better than 45degrees toward the center of the
instrument. The first few I did at 45, and they will
probably be fine for 2-1/4" instruments, but for
3-1/8" ones I needed a little more angle.
The styrene is quite flexible, so some bumping would
be fine, but if someone were to step on one or tweak
it just right, it would break off.
I think the 15 I have built so far maybe cost $30
plus I have materials to build another 4 or 5.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>HI BOB and all,
>>
>>Have you got any ideal, examples for LED post lights for cockpit
>>instrument lighting?
>
>
> This is possible but for the moment, difficult
> to do practically. Output beam-width LEDs is narrow
> compared to the more spherical output from lamps.
> Getting an LED to illuminate a post light fixture
> in the same manner as the incandescent lamp would
> take some doing. The light fixtures I've purchased
> from RS in the past for my LV Warn indicators appears
> to have been discontinued. I'm looking for a new fixture
> that gives me the nice scattering pattern in front
> of the LED as the old one did . . . it's not a plug-n-
> play situation across the spectrum of fixtures.
>
> There are LEDs with sufficient light output to do
> what you propose but the physics on which they
> operate makes them a less than idea substitute.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Multiple GPS feeds |
Steve,
I just went to the Garmin web site and looked at the GTX327. I couldn't
find any features that made any use of an interface between the GNS430 and
GTS327. The GTX330/330D have mode S capability that allows uplink of data
that can then be sent to the 430 for display.
What is the nature of the link you are implementing between the 430 and the
327?
scot
>
>
>Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
>
>Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
>
>Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
>
>Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
>transponder.
>I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
>
>Steve
>Rv7A
>Wiring
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Geoff Evans <hellothaimassage(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | PM-OV and E-bus switch |
Bob. I sent this question to you via email, but perhaps it got lost by the
wayside. I'll repeat the question here.
I have a question about the B&C PM-OV 14 product.
It looks like all the same stuff you recommed for protecting the SD-8
alternator, except the relay has extra lugs on it for the light bulb. The B&C
website says that, if wired according to their diagram, that the light will
illuminate if the alternator switch is left off or if the crowbar trips.
I think I understand how the circuit trips, but I don't understand why you
would want a light that illuminates when the alternator is turned off...
Assuming that I'm going to use the SD-8 as a backup alternator, and following
your advice about not putting two alternators on the same bus at the same time,
why would I want a light that functioned in this manner? The light would be on
for all normal operations.
Perhaps this product is designed to be used with the SD-8 when it is the only
alternator in the airplane, or when it is running on a separate, isolated
bus...
------
On a totally different subject.. What happens in your Z-11 circuit philosophy
if the E-bus alternate feed switch is on at the same time the battery master
switch is on? It looks to me like absolutely nothing, but I just wanted to make
sure.
Thanks.
-Geoff
RV-8 QB Fuselage
http://tax.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org> |
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
do you have any pictures?
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Brusehaver" <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED post lights for instrument lighting?
>
>
> I built mine, and I think they do a fine job
> (in the basement with all the lights off I am
> comfortable sitting in front of the panel,
> and things look good).
>
> I am using 3000mcd red LEDs that I got originally
> from radio shack, but the last batch I bought
> at all electronics.
>
> I used plastruct that you can buy at the hobby
> store. I used 3/16" tube about 1-1/2" long,
> then a 3/8x1/4 rectangular tube glued on at a
> right angle.
>
>
> +------------------+
> | |
> | | <-- 3/8
> +--+---+-----------+
> | | \__\
> | |
> | |
> ----- LED
> | |
> 3/16 tube->| |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> ---------------------------Panel
>
> I wired up the LEDs with 1/4 watt 1K ohm resistor
> and stuffed it in the rectangular area. then ran
> the wires down the tube. Put some tape over one
> end of the rectangular area, and filled the
> rectangular tube with 5min epoxy. When the epoxy
> hardened, I filed the ends round for aesthetics.
> I'll probably paint them black eventually.
>
> Because the cone of the LED light is rather narrow,
> I put the LEDs quite far from the panel, and angled
> better than 45degrees toward the center of the
> instrument. The first few I did at 45, and they will
> probably be fine for 2-1/4" instruments, but for
> 3-1/8" ones I needed a little more angle.
>
> The styrene is quite flexible, so some bumping would
> be fine, but if someone were to step on one or tweak
> it just right, it would break off.
>
> I think the 15 I have built so far maybe cost $30
> plus I have materials to build another 4 or 5.
>
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>HI BOB and all,
> >>
> >>Have you got any ideal, examples for LED post lights for cockpit
> >>instrument lighting?
> >
> >
> > This is possible but for the moment, difficult
> > to do practically. Output beam-width LEDs is narrow
> > compared to the more spherical output from lamps.
> > Getting an LED to illuminate a post light fixture
> > in the same manner as the incandescent lamp would
> > take some doing. The light fixtures I've purchased
> > from RS in the past for my LV Warn indicators appears
> > to have been discontinued. I'm looking for a new fixture
> > that gives me the nice scattering pattern in front
> > of the LED as the old one did . . . it's not a plug-n-
> > play situation across the spectrum of fixtures.
> >
> > There are LEDs with sufficient light output to do
> > what you propose but the physics on which they
> > operate makes them a less than idea substitute.
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
> I just went to the Garmin web site and looked at the GTX327.
> I couldn't
> find any features that made any use of an interface between
> the GNS430 and
> GTS327. The GTX330/330D have mode S capability that allows
> uplink of data
> that can then be sent to the 430 for display.
> What is the nature of the link you are implementing between
> the 430 and the
> 327?
Having done this in my plane, I can tell you the links. First, the 430
sends a serial data stream to the 327 which, among other things, tells
the 327 when the ground speed is above 40 knots. This signal can be
used to switch the transponder from standby to altitude and vice versa,
a nice feature. It is a remarkably common thing to hear ATC asking a
pilot who just took off to switch his transponder on. The 327 sends
back a serial data stream to the 430 which includes the altitude
information the transponder is receiving from the altitude encoder. The
430 uses this data to refine/compare the altitude data gathered from the
GPS receiver in some fashion. I can't tell you exactly how the 430 uses
the altitude data, but it does inform me if I turn off the transponder
with a message like "not receiving altitude information". Possibly, it
will inform one of differences greater than some amount between the two
altitude systems, I don't know.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Make your own AOA indicator? Using $50 guage? |
Replace the pressure gauge with a pressure/voltage transducer, connect
the output to a bargraph driver and display it using a bar of LEDs with
different colors, and it is ALL electric. Doing it this way you do not
have to mess with alignment of the mechanical gauge "...until it
shows..." whatever. Just mount it roughly at 45 degres to the flow and
thats it, since you can make voltage correction electronically. Or
better yet, make two pressure sensing openings at the front of the wing,
say in the wing tip. One of them should be sensing the pressure above
the nose of the airfoil and the other one below, at points where the
flows would be ~orthogonal to each other. Increasing the attack angle
you would make more pressure from the lower opening and less pressure
from the upper. This way you get an invisible probe.
A transducer like that, with a pressure range of 5" of water, 0.25%
precision, would cost $40 from Digikey, (cat # 356-1036-ND), and the
bargraph driver you can find in Radio Shack.
Jerzy
Ian Scott wrote:
>
>
>I know it is not electric, however looks really good? (plus you could
>put a LED light in it and therefore it is relevant to list.
>
>
>http://www.snyder.on.ca/pages/lri.htm
>
>Ian
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve J Hurlbut" <sjhdcl(at)kingston.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Multiple GPS feeds |
The GTX327 has the ability to automatically switch from STBY to ALT and
back by detecting ground speed above 40 kts. It also starts a flight timer
when this speed
is reached.
In order to be able to get these features to work the GTX327 needs GPS info.
As far as I have been able to determine you can't wire the GTX327 directly
to
a GPS antenna. Instead it must get the required info from another unit such
as the
430.
If all you have is an antenna and the GTX327 you will not get automatic
switching
and flight time information.
Steve
RV7A
Wiring
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scot Stambaugh" <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Multiple GPS feeds
>
> Steve,
>
> I just went to the Garmin web site and looked at the GTX327. I couldn't
> find any features that made any use of an interface between the GNS430 and
> GTS327. The GTX330/330D have mode S capability that allows uplink of data
> that can then be sent to the 430 for display.
> What is the nature of the link you are implementing between the 430 and
the
> 327?
>
> scot
>
> >
> >
> >Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
> >
> >Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
> >
> >Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
> >
> >Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
> >transponder.
> >I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
> >
> >Steve
> >Rv7A
> >Wiring
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PM-OV and E-bus switch |
Hi Geoff,
I just ask this same question at B&C a month ago. I learned a bit of the
history of the use of the PM Alternators. B&C had aerobatic pilots who used
them as a primary and sole alternator. The PM-OV was developed for that
design philosophy.
The concept of using the PM alternator as a backup came thru Bob's All
Electric Airplane Article. I learned that once the PM Alternator is
energized it continues to generate current as long as it is rotating. So
that if one were using the PM as a backup and he chose to test its function
during preflight then it would continue to generate even though it was
electrically isolated. It was mentioned that the long term affect of this
was probably not detrimental but B&C had not really tested that.
I Hope I understood correctly and have not mislead you.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Evans" <hellothaimassage(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PM-OV and E-bus switch
>
> Bob. I sent this question to you via email, but perhaps it got lost by the
> wayside. I'll repeat the question here.
>
> I have a question about the B&C PM-OV 14 product.
>
> It looks like all the same stuff you recommed for protecting the SD-8
> alternator, except the relay has extra lugs on it for the light bulb. The
B&C
> website says that, if wired according to their diagram, that the light
will
> illuminate if the alternator switch is left off or if the crowbar trips.
>
> I think I understand how the circuit trips, but I don't understand why you
> would want a light that illuminates when the alternator is turned off...
> Assuming that I'm going to use the SD-8 as a backup alternator, and
following
> your advice about not putting two alternators on the same bus at the same
time,
> why would I want a light that functioned in this manner? The light would
be on
> for all normal operations.
>
> Perhaps this product is designed to be used with the SD-8 when it is the
only
> alternator in the airplane, or when it is running on a separate, isolated
> bus...
>
> ------
>
> On a totally different subject.. What happens in your Z-11 circuit
philosophy
> if the E-bus alternate feed switch is on at the same time the battery
master
> switch is on? It looks to me like absolutely nothing, but I just wanted to
make
> sure.
>
> Thanks.
> -Geoff
>
> RV-8 QB Fuselage
>
> http://tax.yahoo.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin |
List, Worked all day (It's Friday) and nothing was wired wrong or were
there any loose grounds!! My A/P just came down with his handy dandy high
tech equipment and determined either my Van's Amp. Gauge or the Shunt is
Junk!
am drawing about a 4 amp. discharge which he says is about right.
Does anyone know a test that will show if it's the Gauge or
Shunt? If I replace the Amp. Gauge with another 2 1/4" Steam Gauge what have
you had luck with??
Thanks
for all the help! Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin
> Seems to be the approach recommended by most. I have Friday off so
> hopefully I will run this down! Boy I thought the Slider was tough.
>
> Tom in Ohio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:02 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > I would begin by checking out the amp gauge all by itself. Battery, amp
> > gauge, light bulb, ground. I would continue by testing one item at a
> > time. Pull all fuses, off all breakers, switch off all you can,
> disconnect
> > everything else etc.
> >
> > Concentrate on one bird at a time, don't try to shoot the covey.
> >
> > K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
> > RV6-a N7HK flying!
> > PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
> >
> >
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin"
> > >
> > > Any suggestions of where to start looking would be appreciated
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
Steve:
Why bother?
I bought a couple of GPS antennas which work superbly (on my Garmin 295) for
$20 each on eBay, and they're available on many sites on the net.
Why not just put in another antenna?
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T under construction.
From: "Steve J Hurlbut" <sjhdcl(at)kingston.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multiple GPS feeds
Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
transponder.
I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
Steve
Rv7A
Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin |
You should be able to check the shunt with a good voltmeter. Figure out how
many mV you should read with 4 amps and see if you get that accross the
shunt. You could test the voltmeter with a small lamp or something to sink
some current and a different sized resistor. Voltage Drop = Current x
Resistance. Figure the resistor that you would need to get a given voltage
drop which should equal a certain current reading on the gauge.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom & Cathy Ervin <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin
>
> List, Worked all day (It's Friday) and nothing was wired wrong or were
> there any loose grounds!! My A/P just came down with his handy dandy high
> tech equipment and determined either my Van's Amp. Gauge or the Shunt is
> Junk!
> am drawing about a 4 amp. discharge which he says is about right.
> Does anyone know a test that will show if it's the Gauge or
> Shunt? If I replace the Amp. Gauge with another 2 1/4" Steam Gauge what
have
> you had luck with??
>
Thanks
> for all the help! Tom in Ohio
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin(at)valkyrie.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin
>
>
> > Seems to be the approach recommended by most. I have Friday off so
> > hopefully I will run this down! Boy I thought the Slider was tough.
> >
> > Tom in Ohio
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "kempthornes" <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin
> >
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > I would begin by checking out the amp gauge all by itself. Battery,
amp
> > > gauge, light bulb, ground. I would continue by testing one item at a
> > > time. Pull all fuses, off all breakers, switch off all you can,
> > disconnect
> > > everything else etc.
> > >
> > > Concentrate on one bird at a time, don't try to shoot the covey.
> > >
> > > K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
> > > RV6-a N7HK flying!
> > > PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
> > >
> > >
> > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin"
>
> > > >
> > > > Any suggestions of where to start looking would be appreciated
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Houg <thoug(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Multiple GPS feeds |
Actually, GPS devices that support a serial interface typically support the NMEA
data stream protocol. The NMEA protocol defines a continuous stream of data
that the GPS provides. Although the GPS is not "required" to provide all of the
data types defined by the NMEA. For instance, a GPS-35 receiver as Scott mentions
is a complete GPS unit that provides an NMEA data stream. However, you can't
program in a course or waypoints like you can on a panel or handheld GPS.
Thus the GPS-35 has no clue where you want to go, only which way you're going.
As such, it cannot provide cross track error information which is part of the
data stream definition. Thus a GPS-35 cannot drive a Navaid autopilot even with
the smartcoupler because it has no course information to determine if your
off track.
But I digress . . .
The NMEA is a data stream and is not a request protocol as Scott mentions below.
This data stream is a one way communication from GPS to whatever is connected
at the other end. Some GPS's can be configured to send different optional data
types, but this is not done by a device requesting information. The data continually
streams out of teh receiver, and the autopilot/transponder/moving map
just sucks it up. Thus it is possible to hook up this one way data stream to
more than one device as Garmin indicated. As such, a single GPS receiver CAN
drive the NMEA data stream to more than one device. However, If the discussion
with TruTrack was relating to hooking up multiple GPS antenna's, then the answer
to that is no, you can't hookup a single antenna to more than one receiver.
Todd Houg
RV9A - N194TH - reserved
-----Original Message-----
From: Scot Stambaugh [SMTP:sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Multiple GPS feeds
Steve,
The GPS 35 is a complete 12 channel GPS receiver, not just an
antenna. once power is applied, it finds satellites and gathers a
longitude and latitude position coordinates as well as developing a error
metric and a number of other variables that it can offer to whatever devise
it is connected to, such as a Trutrak A/P or a Chelton Flight Systems EFIS
or Control Vision's Anywhere moving map package. The interface to the GPS
35 is a RS-232 two way serial connection that reports the various
information to the above instruments. RS-232 is intended to be a
point-to-point protocol, which means one unit on each end of the
cable. Since the above mentioned units assume that there is only one
device on the other end of the cable it only sends the information that is
requested of it. So, consider this situation. If you have one GPS 35 and
you connect it to the Trutrak and also the GTX 327. The GTX 327 may only
request Lat/Lon information and never ask for any of the other data that
the unit makes available, but the Trutrak wants to also request position
error data for example. What could happen is the Trutrack would send a
command to the GPS requesting a position error message and the GPS promptly
replies. The GTX 327 is connected to the same wire and gets the position
error message same as the Trutrak but one of two things will happen. The
design engineer for the GTX 327 assumed that this would always be a
point-to-point connection and that all messages are for him only and would
attempt to decipher the "position error" message as Lat/Lon. It would
either get confused and declare an error, or worse, it would somehow
convince itself that the data string is a Lat/Lon and treat it as
such. Now everything is hosed.
Now, onto your original question, GPS antenna signals should be able to be
split and shared between GPS receivers but the signal is not real
strong. It dissipates over long cable runs and should be carefully managed
when adding additional loads to it such as making it drive two GPS's. You
can purchase GPS amplifiers for long cable runs or just to boost the signal
but you need to know what your doing because if you don't need to boost the
signal that much and you give the GPS receiver too much signal that will
cause signal distortion. A reduction in signal power to the GPS receiver
will usually result in a difficultly for the receiver to detect and acquire
as many satellites. This increases position error and can cause signal
loss conditions more often.
Sorry for the long dissertation. I am in a similar situation, with a GPS
35 driving my CFS EFIS-2000 and needing (but not wanting) a second GPS 35
to drive my Anywhere map PDA system as a backup.
good luck,
scot
>
>
>Can a GPS antenna feed more than 1 GPS device?
>
>Trutrak Flight Systems says no, Garmin says yes.
>
>Which is it and anybody have experience doing this?
>
>Specically I want to feed GPS signal to my Digitrak autopilot and GTX 327
>transponder.
>I have a GPS 35 receiver as recommended by Trutrak Flight Systems.
>
>Steve
>Rv7A
>Wiring
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | angle of attack indicator |
<>
That would work, I suppose, but what you will have is more like an airspeed
indicator than a true angle-of-attack indicator. The commercially available
AOA indicators DIVIDE the wing top-side pressure by the bottom-side
pressure. Reading the DIFFERENCE by probes that are sensitive to
orientation pretty much describes an airspeed indicator - and you already
have one of those. The link describes the result as a "Lift Reserve
Indicator" which sounds like an appropriate label.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
I just went and took some pictures now.
Try these:
http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-assembly.jpg
http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-closeup.jpg
http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-parts.jpg
Cy Galley wrote:
>
> do you have any pictures?
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: RV-List: Electrical System Gremlin |
>
>
>List, Worked all day (It's Friday) and nothing was wired wrong or were
>there any loose grounds!! My A/P just came down with his handy dandy high
>tech equipment and determined either my Van's Amp. Gauge or the Shunt is
>Junk!
>am drawing about a 4 amp. discharge which he says is about right.
> Does anyone know a test that will show if it's the Gauge or
>Shunt? If I replace the Amp. Gauge with another 2 1/4" Steam Gauge what have
>you had luck with??
I'm not sure from your post why he thinks it's bad.
If it's a Van's instrument, I presume you have it wired
in as a classic battery ammeter (-0+). Is this a new
instrument? Did you purchase the shunt and instrument
at the same time as a set?
There are some other posts suggesting ways to "test"
the shunt which are valid things to do IF you know how
the shunt is calibrated. The quasi-standard for shunted
ammeters in the instrumentation world is to make your
panel instrument read full scale on either 50 or 100 millivolts
of applied voltage. The vast majority of systems I've worked
with are of the 50mV full scale variety. I've seen some
100 mV systems advertised and described in a service manual
or two . . . by and large, 50mV systems predominate.
Now, when you go to Smiley Jacks's auto-cum-aeromotive
parts store, you may find matched sets of instrument and
shunt that operating on some scale factor OTHER than
50mV full scale. I've encountered 35 mV and a few odd
factors I don't recall any more. Without this basic
knowledge as to how your particular combination works,
you don't have data needed to trouble shoot the components
independently of each other.
So, I'll suggest you use a mulitmeter's 20A scale
and hook it in series with the battery (+) lead.
With the OUTPUT side of the battery contactor
disconnected, turn on the battery master switch
and get a reading of battery contactor current.
Hook the output side again and turn on enough
stuff in the airplane to get a 10-15A load on
your test instrument. Subtract the battery contactor
value and see how closely it matches with the
panel instrument. If it's within 10%, the panel
instrument is probably okay . . . or at least
good enough.
The IMPORTANT calibration point for a battery ammeter
is at ZERO . . . a properly operating system
will indicate some small value just above zero
after you've been flying for awhile and you know
the battery is fully charged. ALL other readings
are useful to the extent that you know the alternator
is NOT working or that the battery never seems to
get fully charged 'cause the needle rides too far
right of zero for too long. All other readings,
whether accurate or not, are not terribly useful.
The only car I had with a factory installed battery
ammeter didn't even have numbers on the scale . . .
just a minus, zero mark and plus. After owning the
car for a time, I learned it was important to note
that the needle rode slightly above zero with
everything turned off . . . and mentally adjust
for that slip of calibration while interpreting
significance of the instrument's display.
I wish Van didn't sell those things . . . when
someone of his stature in aviation offers them,
it's easy to assign more usefulness to the instrument
than is really there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
JC Whitney lists a 12v LED Map Light for $14.99 that plugs into a cigarette
lighter and has a flexible arm. Can't get it to come up on the net but it
is in their paper cataloge numbered 672J-03 on the lower left bottom of page
10. Comes in red, Purple, Neon blue, green, turquoise, pink,white, yellow or
orange. Theri number is 800 529-4486
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Brusehaver" <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED post lights for instrument lighting?
>
>
> I just went and took some pictures now.
>
> Try these:
>
> http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-assembly.jpg
> http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-closeup.jpg
> http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-parts.jpg
>
>
> Cy Galley wrote:
> >
> > do you have any pictures?
> > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> >
> > Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> > cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
> >
> > Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | SLIM-LINE 55-WATT LIGHTS |
These lights mght be similar to the ones Bob mentioned:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/SearchCatContainer.jhtml?_requestid=19101
OR A BIT LARGER
http://www.jcwhitney.com/SearchCatContainer.jhtml?_requestid=19158
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Landing/taxi light warm up
>
> >
> >
> >Looks very interesting. Where can it be purchased.
>
> Car parts store . . . #4352 It was only used
> on a few years of GM vehicles . . . low volume
> product so expect to pay about $20 per bulb. But
> they are the right size, shape and technology. Should
> last a VERY long time in your airplane.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED post lights for instrument lighting? |
>
>
>I just went and took some pictures now.
>
>Try these:
>
> http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-assembly.jpg
> http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-closeup.jpg
> http://home.mn.rr.com/brusehaver/avionics/led-parts.jpg
These pictures illustrate one builder's approach to living
with the narrow and end-centered beam-width of leds. Another
approach I've considered is similar to the technique used
to scatter and broaden the beam-width of a camera mounted
flash. I have brackets to hold approx 10" x 8" white card
at 45 degree angle above a flashgun pointed at the ceiling.
Light is reflected off this card as a softer, broader light
source that softens shadows behind the subject.
An LED pointed parallel to the face of an instrument
shining on a reflective tab might do well to turn light
around the corner and scatter it to more broadly light
the instrument. I'm not personally attracted to the post-light
technique. If I were going to front light instruments, I think
an overhead or side mounted flood is a more efficient way
to use the light without having lamp-post-fungi growing
off the surface of the panel.
Someone else posted a note about work they'd done with
light wedges made from plastic. These have a natural
light scattering effect . . . the design also lends itself
to the use of multiple lamps from the same or adjacent
edges to improve coverage. Better yet, your panel stays
smooth. The instruments do recess back to allow for light
wedge thickness . . . this needs to be considered in
the overall visibility of the instrument face.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ATC BLADE FUSES THAT GLOW WHEN BLOWN |
http://www.jcwhitney.com/SearchCatContainer.jhtml?_requestid21150
ANYBODY KNOW HOW THESE WORK AND IF THEY WOULD BE JUST AS RELIABLE AS REGULAR ATC'S.
I AM BUIDING A BATTERY BUS IN THE TAIL CONE OF MY RV6A AND THOUGHT THESE
THANKS,
NED
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: strobe wiring |
In a message dated 4/3/2003 4:21:55 PM Central Standard Time,
kycshann(at)kyol.net writes:
> Hrm. That sucks as I already ran it at 22-3. After writing the email,
> I called Whelen to get some specs on the HDACF power supply I'm using.
> Turns out its 21J, and it flashes on some deal they call Cometflash.
> Cometflash pulses the tube 4 times in rapid succession so the effective
> on-time is increases from 2ms to 400ms, which they say increases
> visibility. Also, I learned that the output voltage is 500-600 volts.
>
Good Morning Shannon,
For What It's Worth. I have strobes on my tip tanks and the tubing that was
installed to carry the wiring out to the strobes and running lights was too
small for anything larger than number 22 wire.
I contacted Whelen and was advised that # 22 should work OK. Don't remember
if they said I would lose anything or not.
Mine is twenty-four volt system.
It has been working adequately for twelve years and over two thousand hours.
Not all at night though!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: angle of attack indicator |
The lift reserve indicator as described by Jim Mantyla provides
different input than the airspeed indicator. The air speed indicator
uses a probe to be as little sensitive to the direction of flow as
possible. The air speed indicator measures pressure difference between
that probe and the static port. The pressure difference is the dynamic
pressure which is equal to the density of air multiplied by velocity
squared and divided by two. The air speed indicator measures the
dynamic pressure, and it does not care what is the attack angle. You
might have greater than minimum velocity, but you will stall if you jerk
the controlls.
In the other design the probe has two sensing openings, one on top and
one on the bottom, and you measure the pressure difference between these
two, and not between the probe and the static port. That produces a
pressure difference signal proportional to the attack angle (measured in
respect to some reference angle, depending how you mount the probe)
multiplied by the dynamic pressure, and this product is rougly the lift
reserve. If you jerk the controlls the measured pressure difference
will change a lot because of change of the attack angle.
Formally this instrument does not measure the attack angle, it measures
the attack angle multiplied by something. But air speed indicator does
not measure the air speed either, it measures the air speed multiplied
by the air density, which as we well know is not constant and it changes
with altitude. But few people would go flying without airspeed indicator.
In my opinion the lift reserve indicator is a valid and very useful
instrument telling you when are you going to stall. However, a
mechanical pressure gauge connected to the probe does not offer enough
warning when the lift reserve vanishes, it just shows some low
pressure. Electronics would activate a strong red diode in the
bargraph, and perhaps activate a screamer providing a hard not to
notice warning.
Jerzy
Gary Casey wrote:
>
><the output to a bargraph driver and display it using a bar of LEDs with
>different colors, and it is ALL electric. Doing it this way you do not
>have to mess with alignment of the mechanical gauge "...until it
>shows..." whatever. Just mount it roughly at 45 degrees to the flow and
>that's it, since you can make voltage correction electronically.>>
>
>That would work, I suppose, but what you will have is more like an airspeed
>indicator than a true angle-of-attack indicator. The commercially available
>AOA indicators DIVIDE the wing top-side pressure by the bottom-side
>pressure. Reading the DIFFERENCE by probes that are sensitive to
>orientation pretty much describes an airspeed indicator - and you already
>have one of those. The link describes the result as a "Lift Reserve
>Indicator" which sounds like an appropriate label.
>
>Gary Casey
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ATC BLADE FUSES THAT GLOW WHEN BLOWN |
Sorry,
Click on the link below:
http://www.jcwhitney.com
Then enter the number below inteh search blank:
49UB1501R
----- Original Message -----
From: <315(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ATC BLADE FUSES THAT GLOW WHEN BLOWN
>
> http://www.jcwhitney.com/SearchCatContainer.jhtml?_requestid21150
>
> ANYBODY KNOW HOW THESE WORK AND IF THEY WOULD BE JUST AS RELIABLE AS
REGULAR ATC'S. I AM BUIDING A BATTERY BUS IN THE TAIL CONE OF MY RV6A AND
BACK INTO THE TAILCONE.
> THANKS,
> NED
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: angle of attack indicator |
>
>In the other design the probe has two sensing openings, one on top and
>one on the bottom, and you measure the pressure difference between these
>two, and not between the probe and the static port. That produces a
>pressure difference signal proportional to the attack angle (measured in
>respect to some reference angle, depending how you mount the probe)
>multiplied by the dynamic pressure, and this product is rougly the lift
>reserve. If you jerk the controlls the measured pressure difference
>will change a lot because of change of the attack angle.
Jerzy, Thanks for taking this on. You save me some writing.
The LRI as an instrument has been around for a very long time.
I don't remember the first manifestation I saw of this . . .I think
we had an engineering flight test equivalent to it at Cessna 40 years
ago. The biggest hurdle with this system is how to sense/display
very small delta-pressures between the two probe openings. A company
called Dwyer has produced laboratory grade instruments for this
purpose for decades. Their Magnehelic series gages were, I believe,
made it possible for a number of companies to offer this kind
of cockpit panel instrumentation. See:
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/pressure/2000.html
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/liftreserve.htm
http://www.liftreserve.com/
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/liftres_indicators.php
http://www.snyder.on.ca/pages/angle%20of%20attack.jpg
here's a retouched version of the drawing:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/angle_of_attack.jpg
As someone suggested, there are solid state pressure
transducers capable of differential pressure sensitivities
needed for this task . . . although the miniature
Magnehelic gages are interesting for their simplicity
and no power required for operation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <Charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Hall Effect Ammeters |
Running b-leads from both the main and backup alternator through my
VM-1000 Ammeter hall-sensor is exactly what I want to do. However, I
haven't found a way to get both fat wires through the hole. Any suggestions?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
--------------------------------
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall Effect Ammeters
>
>
> >
> >
> >A few months back in the archives, Bob wrote:
> >
> >-----
> > You can also use the hall-sensor to measure
> > the current in more than one wire wherein the sensor
> > sees the algebraic sum of all the currents. Not much
> > application for this in airplanes but there is ONE
> > two-wire opportunity. You can run the b-lead for both
> > the main and aux alternators through the sensor and it
> > will read either alternator or the sum of both should they
> > both happen to be on and delivering power.
> >----
> >
> >I'm not quite sure how one could do this, as the b-leads from the different
> >alternators seem to go to different places. In drawing Z-13, for example, the
> >main b-lead goes the the starter and then the battery contactor, but the
> >alternate b-lead goes to the *other* side of the battery contactor.
> >
> >Am I missing something, or is there a way to run two b-leads through a single
> >hall effect sensor when the b-leads need to go to different places?
>
> The hall sensor has no way of knowing where the wires
> it watches goes and doesn't care. It measures the total
> magnetic field around the wire(s) and converts this to
> a voltage proportional to magnetic field which is in
> turn proportional to the sum of currents in the wires.
>
> Now, suppose you had a pair of wires, each carrying
> 5A in the same direction through the sensor. The sensor
> has no way to know if it's one wire with 10A or 5 wires
> with 2A. Suppose you had two wires; one carrying
> 10A in one direction and a second wire with 3A
> in the OPPOSITE direction, the hall sensor would "see"
> a field proportional to 7A and would respond appropriately.
>
> You can run both alternator output leads through the
> same sensor. If both are running, then the sensor would
> report the sum total of output from both irrespective
> of their sizes . . . in most cases, the alternators
> do not run at the same time. In the "All-Electric-Airplane-
> on-a-Budget" drawing, running both alternator feed wires
> through the same sensor would allow it to read EITHER
> or BOTH alternators, depending on which ones were turned
> on. Given that this system is designed to operate on
> alternator at a time, whatever the Amps display says
> at the moment is the output load for the alternator
> currently ON.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Bolder Technologies still operating? |
While looking for some other things on the J.C. Whitney
site, I ran across this critter:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=141565&FID=967&BQ=jcw2
also find other folks still showing the Secure Start
product in their online catalogs:
https://secure2.lswwm.com/cgi-bin/cart006/BOL900XLT.html?id=JzpyTgko
Last time I knew, this product used a very small, 1 a.h.
sealed lead acid cell made by Bolder Technologies. See:
http://www.industryweek.com/CurrentArticles/asp/articles.asp?ArticleID=346
http://www.chipcenter.com/power/powp006.htm
http://www.edgar-online.com/brand/businessweek/glimpse/glimpse.pl?symbol=BOLD
http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2001/04/02/daily7.html
As near as I can tell, Bolder is out of existence . . . yet here
the folks still offering the product. I was unable to find any
recent postings about the health and welfare of Bolder or
any other company producing the amazing little 1 a.h. cells
that will dump nearly 1000A . . .
If any of you run across this product in a store, I'd appreciate
it if you could get the name of a manufacturer and/or distributor
off the box.
Bob . . .
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| The man who does not read good books has no advantage |
| over the man who cannot read them. |
| - Mark Twain |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
| Subject: | Z-14 Interface with FADEC |
Bob -
Just returned from Sun N Fun and some conversations wi/ the Velocity folks and
the Aerosance (FADEC) folks. In a dual battery aircraft with 2 x 17AH batteries
ganged for start, the FADEC will brown out and the engine will not start
reliably.
Question: I know that you were looking into a solution to this and wonder if it
has been completed.
We are installing the Z-14 system and have one channel of the FADEC on each
battery bus. Thus when we crossfeed for starting, we risk the brownout. One
solution Aerosance recommends is to install a larger battery on the 60 amp
alternator circuit. A 35 AH battery would work as we would then not have to
crossfeed for start and the FADEC would get full voltage from the 17AH battery
on the 20 amp alternator circuit. The downside of this is more weight and we
would lose the battery rotation system you recommend.
Question: Could we put 2 17's in parallel for the large battery? Any risks in
this approach besides adding parts count? We would then have a 3 year rotation
cycle of 17 AH batteries.
Thanks,
John Schroeder
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)Globaleyes.net> |
| Subject: | Bolder Technologies still operating? |
Bob,
I used to be a stock holder in Bolder. Yes, they went belly up, another
case of company execs. giving themselves big bonuses as the ship was
sinking.
A friend of mine was very closely involved with the Secure Start and I
copied him on this e-mail. You might want to contact Dave about the cells.
March 28, 2003 - April 05, 2003
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-bv