AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cg
July 25, 2003 - August 03, 2003
Thanks for everyones help.
I will try to get the actual pickup sensor from
tinytach but I have a feeling that it is built in. I
need a way to convert the pulses from an ignition wire
to voltage and pulses per minute. How does an
inductive pickup for a timing light or a fluke meter
work? Is it just a coil of wire? If so how many wraps
and what gauge wire? Is there a sender that I can buy
or make that will give me these voltage pulses?
Thanks for the help
BJB
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Canyon <steve.canyon(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Dynon EFIS D10 Problem |
Larry Bowen wrote:
> From memory when I wired that harness last week, there is a send, rcv,
>and ground going from the PC serial port to the Dynon.
---
Ahh... OK, I was hoping for such. :-)
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensing low coolant level |
>
>From: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)FDIC.gov>
>To: "'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'"
>Subject: Annunciator for Water Level Sensor
>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:14:36 -0400
>
>The engine that I will be installing in my kit-built Mustang II aircraft is
>water-cooled. I have a water-level sensor that I obtained from a Mazda RX-7
>radiator, which I want to use to tell me when the water level in the
>radiator is too low. I do not have the circuitry imbedded in the car's
>computer that interprets the signal from the sensor and turns on a light in
>the car.
>
>The sensor screws into an appropriate spot in the radiator (or a fitting in
>a water hose/line) and has a current that runs from a wire attached to the
>sensor to the isolated probe that screws into the radiator and then flows
>through the water in the radiator to a ground attached to the metal in the
>radiator that touches the water. As long is there is water at the level of
>the sensor, the current flows, but if the water drops below the sensor, the
>current stops.
>
>My question is this: What sort of circuit do I need to allow an annunciator
>light on the instrument panel to turn on when the water in the radiator gets
>too low? The current flow through the water is subject to some resistance
>(5 to 10 thousand ohms as measured by my Multimeter). I need something that
>will cause a separate circuit with a light bulb in it to turn on when the
>flow of current through the sensor stops, i.e. no water is touching the
>sensor. Any ideas?
Can't answer your question without knowing more about the physics
of how the Mazda sensor operates. I THINK those were a power thermistor
that was monitored for resistance change when power was applied to
the sensor. If the resistance did change, then it was NOT submerged
in liquid, if it did not change, then water level was sufficient
to keep the sensor covered.
There are other possibilities. I did a Google search on this
topic and only found discussions on Mazda radiator leaks
and fragility of these sensors, seems it's easy to pull the
connections out of them.
One writer noted that they're only $12 part. Might drop by
a parts store and get one to bring home and see if I can
figure out how it works and what's necessary to communicate
with one of them.
Alternatively, there are other technologies and components
suited to this task that are more plug-n-play. For example,
a number of companies make products like this:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/OS-10_Series.pdf
wherein you put the sensor through the wall of the tank,
hook up 12 volts and a light bulb and you're done.
Very user friendly.
Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>Annunciator for Water Level Sensor
>
>
>The engine that I will be installing in my kit-built Mustang II aircraft
>is water-cooled. I have a water-level sensor that I obtained from a Mazda
>RX-7 radiator, which I want to use to tell me when the water level in the
>radiator is too low. I do not have the circuitry imbedded in the car's
>computer that interprets the signal from the sensor and turns on a light
>in the car.
>
>
>The sensor screws into an appropriate spot in the radiator (or a fitting
>in a water hose/line) and has a current that runs from a wire attached to
>the sensor to the isolated probe that screws into the radiator and then
>flows through the water in the radiator to a ground attached to the metal
>in the radiator that touches the water. As long is there is water at the
>level of the sensor, the current flows, but if the water drops below the
>sensor, the current stops.
>
>
>My question is this: What sort of circuit do I need to allow an
>annunciator light on the instrument panel to turn on when the water in the
>radiator gets too low? The current flow through the water is subject to
>some resistance (5 to 10 thousand ohms as measured by my Multimeter). I
>need something that will cause a separate circuit with a light bulb in it
>to turn on when the flow of current through the sensor stops, i.e. no
>water is touching the sensor. Any ideas?
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine vibration monitor? |
Just kicking the idea around to see if it would work, with out costing a
fortune. I am always tinkering with something.
The biggest problem I see is relating a display change to a cause. I
beleive the display can provide a large amount of potential information,
BUT, no way to decypher it. Oh well, thinking is cheap!
>
>
>><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>>I am thinking of creating (for me) a engine vibration monitor to go along
>>with my engine monitor display. I can use an accelerometer and a display to
>>measure the vibration. They do this on expensive, critical pumps and motors
>>now. The idea is to have a display that reads from 1-100(?), and at cruise
>>you would be reading a steady 60 (?). Any change of more than (5) points
>>(?) and you might have a problem. The idea is to associate common operating
>>senarios with a number on the display. Lets say you set 23 square reguarly
>>in cruise and always read 52. One day you are reading 63, just might want
>>to land and check it out. I know there are issues such as the sensor needs
>>24 volts, and I might need to filter out some "stuff" electricall but it is
>>fairly easy to do for 2-3 hundred bucks.
>>
>>Anyone have any thoughts, info, experience on this?
>
>
> Vibration sensing and display technology is relatively
> easy to implement . . . especially if you don't need
> to accurately quantify the measurements. Further,
> you can do this for under $300.
>
> But before we launch off on the hammer-n-tongs of such
> a task, can you identify what incipient failures
> of engine components that would present vibration
> symptoms so subtle that you need instrumentation
> to detect them?
>
> In about 1500 hours, I've had one incident of an
> aborted flight due to bad magneto (caught in
> preflight) and one other with a bad plug (probably
> failed last flight but not noticed until next
> pre-flight). I know there are plenty of dark-n-stormy
> night stories out there that relate various and sundry
> malfunctions. Further, ads that would sell us kilobuck
> engine monitors would have us believe that the true
> path to flying comfort is to link as much of our
> biological nervous systems to that of our machines.
>
> Based on observations of nearly a century of aviating
> behind propellers and dancing pistons, the probability
> of an engine failure ruining you day is tiny compared
> to all of the other things that can and do go wrong.
>
> Check out the accident reports as to root causes . . .
> engine failures are small segment of the total and of
> those, I've heard of perhaps a handful of incidents
> where panel mounted instrumentation MIGHT have mitigated
> the outcome.
>
> Ever fly over a large body of water? Perfectly
> running engines SOUND terrible as soon as your
> distance to land exceeds the gliding distance of your
> airplane. May I suggest that adding gobs of system
> data on the panel has a higher probability of
> being a distraction and/or GENERATOR of irrational
> tension than for making your flying experience more
> comfortable.
>
> As distraction and/or tension go up, your ability as
> pilot goes down. If have no better way to spend $300
> and hours to fabricate such a system at this stage of
> your project's completion -AND- you really believe the thing
> would add value to your flying experience, we can talk
> about some ways to do it.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: About Learning Electronics |
>
>Ten Things to Know about Learning Electronics:
>
>
>1) Any book about electronics that begins with vacuum tubes; just
>tip it into the trash or bandsaw out the insides and glue the pages
>together for a neat Book-Stash. Subscribe to an electronics magazine. Buy
>Forrest Mims' "Engineer's Notebook at your local Radio Shack (The only
>book you will need for a long time). ---he's online too.
This is an excellent text. Also look though the used book stores
on 'net for anything by Thomas A. Floyd. In particular
Electric Circuits Fundamentals (any edition)
Excellent teaching style, expensive new ($105) but I've found
copies on 'net for under $20.
>2) Everything you ever wanted to know is available online. Use the
>Google miracle. Broadband please!
>
>3) Albert Einstein taught: If you are not interested in something
>you really can't learn it. Education usually consists of fooling oneself
>into being interested. This is itself a learned art and usually involves
>solving some puzzle that you yourself have created.
The very best are passionate about their craft. Too many
graduate from college with the notion that because they
regurgitated facts with sufficient accuracy to acquire
a diploma, they're going on to be successful . . . doesn't
work that way . ..
>4) Get to know the names of things. If you are reading something and
>come across "phase converter", find out what a "phase converter" is. You
>may never need one, but that's important to know too.
Excellent point. I've got a 13 year old nephew that I'll
begin to tutor in a few weeks. One of the first books I've
provided to him is a dictionary of electronic terms.
>5) You don't have to know everything. Electronics is a huge field
>and to know microprocessors does not mean you know much about radios. Even
>knowing about low frequency radios does not mean you know much about high
>frequencies. It's a huge field.
You got that right! Be aware that the whole universe (of
which electronics is a tiny subset) runs on physics. EVERY
basic principal of physics is a stone simple concept that
you can explain to your grandmother . . . seek out and
understand the simple-ideas and you'll find that you have
a grasp on things that perhaps 1% of your contemporaries
possess.
>6) Pick up several multimeters. One of them should measure
>capacitance. Buy an old Tektronics 465 oscilloscope on eBay for $100. This
>is the Cessna 172 of 'scopes and you can pass it on to your son, or sell
>it on eBay to get your money back.
>http://www.surplussales.com/Manuals/man_tek.html has manuals. Buy a cheap
>function generator or make one using an Exar XR2206 function-generator IC
>(a great first project too!).
The 465 is a venerable workhorse. I've had several.
There are alternatives in other models and brands
that are equally useful to you and easier to learn to
use. If you spot something on Ebay that interests you,
drop a note about it on the 'list . . . we can take
a peek at it and offer a not-to-exceed bid price.
I've picked up some excellent values all for under $200
>7) You can't do without a prototype breadboard. It makes prototyping
>and learning much easier. And a stock of parts in your junk box is required.
>
>8) Get to know Digikey, All-Electronics, and other neat sources of
>parts. Get their catalogs and page through them often for a good education.
When I was very young, Allied Electronics would send you
a marvelous book for the price of a postcard. Knowing what
things are called, what they look like, how many sizes they
come in, what they cost and where to buy them is a huge
data asset and the data is essentially free. All it takes
is your time and interest to gather it up.
All you'll ever want to know is probably out there on
the 'net but the portability and true random access
browsing features of books will never be matched by
the CRT and keyboard.
>9) Integrated Circuits do almost everything. Get to know them
>personally. When a circuit has a bunch of transistors and twenty or more
>parts-know that there is an integrated circuit that does that job better
>and cheaper.
>
>10) It puzzles beginners why there are SO MANY DARNED part numbers. The
>reason is that there are so many different characteristics. Take
>heart! Examples of the characteristics are, package details, voltage
>withstand, operating temps, volts, amps, wattage, etc. etc. etc. etc.
>Develop a palette of favorite parts and become familiar with them. Then
>you can use different stuff when you need to satisfy special parameters.
Selling electronics parts is like selling laundry
soap. There are a few major suppliers that offer
huge numbers of options. There are only three or
four suppliers for all those shelves of laundry
soap too . . . to increase market share, one has
to have a bigger share of options even when
differences between them is trivial.
There was a note on the list earlier this week
about a particular part number of transistor called
out on a schematic for a DC power regulator. In
a few years, experience and knowledge will make
it obvious to you too that there are probably
a thousand different parts that ALL would perform
well in that particular circuit.
>And for free----My physics professor in electro-magnetic theory said to
>me, "Take some advice.stay away from antenna design. It's all Black Art
>and Voo Doo."
Well put! Actually lenses mirrors have a lot to do with it.
RF is just a lower frequency component of light and the
two phenomenon share much in they way of behavior. However,
it's easy to understand enough about antennas to have a
good working knowledge without understanding all that
makes 'em work the way they do.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Inductive pickup |
>
>Thanks for everyones help.
> I will try to get the actual pickup sensor from
>tinytach but I have a feeling that it is built in. I
>need a way to convert the pulses from an ignition wire
>to voltage and pulses per minute. How does an
>inductive pickup for a timing light or a fluke meter
>work? Is it just a coil of wire? If so how many wraps
>and what gauge wire? Is there a sender that I can buy
>or make that will give me these voltage pulses?
>Thanks for the help
>BJB
Are you sure you're dealing with an inductive
pickup? Inductive is a transformer that senses
magnetic field around a wire due to flow . . . or
more properly change-in-flow of electrons in
the wire.
I prototyped a prop synchronizer for twins
a few years back using pulses from one cylinder
on each engine to detect rotational phase differences
between engines. The spark event could be EASILY
detected through the shielded plug wire.
The inductive sensor will have two wires coming
of a core through which the plug wire must pass.
If the wire is NOT shielded (common to many
new engines and in particular Rotax), you can
sense the spark event by simply wrapping a
single wire around the outside of the plug wire.
Here, we're depending on electro-static coupling,
the very thing we try to avoid in some situations
by shielding a wire.
I presume you're looking for some way to adapt
an existing electronic tach to some form of
spark-plug sensing. If the tach is set up for
4-cycle (1 spark per cylinder every two
revolutions) and 4 cylinder (2 total sparks each
revolution) then reading a single plug
will require some signal conditioning lest
you get a reading that is 1/4 true RPM.
Do you have tachometer drive connections
open on these engines? Why not build a
hall-effect sensor to screw onto these
drives that will produce the exact number
of pulses/revolution that the tachometer
expects?
Sensing a single plug gives you a very
low signal frequency that makes readings
below 1000 rpm really shaky . . . not a
bit deal 'cause you don't operate the
engine at these speeds . . . but it bug
some folks that the tach doesn't read
well at idle rpms.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine vibration monitor? |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>Just kicking the idea around to see if it would work, with out costing a
>fortune. I am always tinkering with something.
>
>The biggest problem I see is relating a display change to a cause. I
>beleive the display can provide a large amount of potential information,
>BUT, no way to decypher it. Oh well, thinking is cheap!
. . . and useful. There is as much value in deducing what
works and is helpful as it is to figure out what doesn't work
or creates more work/problems than it fixes. In this venue
we're free to fully exercise this activity.
I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't fully massage the idea.
Whether if you ultimately decide to do it or not to do it, I
hope that decision is based on your understanding of the trade-offs
as opposed to the advice of me or anyone else.
I'll suggest that the AeroElectric-List is the best place
to explore the simple-ideas upon which you will ultimately
ground your decision.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dynon EFIS D10 Problem |
In a message dated 7/25/2003 6:59:16 AM Central Daylight Time,
mireley(at)msu.edu writes:
> Larry Bowen wrote:
>
>
> >
> >From memory when I wired that harness last week, there is a send, rcv,
> >and ground going from the PC serial port to the Dynon.
> >
> >-
> >Larry Bowen
>
>
> Did you try switching transmit and receive?
More importantly, do TX / RX cross over between connectors?(TX wire on one
end is RX on ther end)
...Chrissi
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil |
| Subject: | Re: About Learning Electronics |
I was going to reply to the original post, when Bob's excellent reply hit my screen.
>1) Any book about electronics that begins with vacuum
> tubes; just
> >tip it into the trash or bandsaw out the insides and glue the
> pages
> >together for a neat Book-Stash. Subscribe to an electronics
> magazine. Buy
> >Forrest Mims' "Engineer's Notebook at your local Radio Shack (The
> only
> >book you will need for a long time). ---he's online too.
I have a little book of his with several projects in it. I've made one of the
projects, but the book is locked up in my toolbox, umpteen thousand miles away.
I think I'll order, or get my wife to send me another one. Or check online
> This is an excellent text. Also look though the used book stores
> on 'net for anything by Thomas A. Floyd. In particular
> Electric Circuits Fundamentals (any edition)
>
> Excellent teaching style, expensive new ($105) but I've found
> copies on 'net for under $20.
I'll look for it. Unfortunately, most auction sites are off-limits for me.
>
>
> >2) Everything you ever wanted to know is available online.
> Use the
> >Google miracle. Broadband please!
> >
> >3) Albert Einstein taught: If you are not interested in
> something
> >you really can't learn it. Education usually consists of fooling
> oneself
> >into being interested. This is itself a learned art and usually
> involves
> >solving some puzzle that you yourself have created.
>
> The very best are passionate about their craft. Too many
> graduate from college with the notion that because they
> regurgitated facts with sufficient accuracy to acquire
> a diploma, they're going on to be successful . . . doesn't
> work that way . ..
I have to say that I honestly don't know if I feel that way about electronics or
not. I KNOW I'm passionate about working on airplanes, especially the creating/fabricating
part, and I am close to fanatical about "improving" over certified
aircraft. The more I see the poor workmanship and schlock on the certifieds
I work on, the more I see Bob's and others' points about the value of experimental
aircraft.
>
>
> >4) Get to know the names of things. If you are reading
> something and
> >come across "phase converter", find out what a "phase converter"
> is. You
> >may never need one, but that's important to know too.
>
> Excellent point. I've got a 13 year old nephew that I'll
> begin to tutor in a few weeks. One of the first books I've
> provided to him is a dictionary of electronic terms.
>
I speak three languages, and the first thing that struck me about electronics,
is the difference and complexity of the language. There is also a tendency among
those who "speak the language" to overlook critical points that make it especially
hard for those of us who speak electronics as a "second language" to
follow the conversation.
>
> >5) You don't have to know everything. Electronics is a huge
> field
> >and to know microprocessors does not mean you know much about
> radios. Even
> >knowing about low frequency radios does not mean you know much
> about high
> >frequencies. It's a huge field.
>
> You got that right! Be aware that the whole universe (of
> which electronics is a tiny subset) runs on physics. EVERY
> basic principal of physics is a stone simple concept that
> you can explain to your grandmother . . . seek out and
> understand the simple-ideas and you'll find that you have
> a grasp on things that perhaps 1% of your contemporaries
> possess.
Those two statements just made me simultaneously feel like much less of a moron,
and completely overwhelmed, at the same time. Now to decide what tiny subset
I need to learn to be an effective and knowledgeable avionics/aeroelectrics
guy.
>
>
> >6) Pick up several multimeters. One of them should measure
> >capacitance. Buy an old Tektronics 465 oscilloscope on eBay for
> $100. This
> >is the Cessna 172 of 'scopes and you can pass it on to your son,
> or sell
> >it on eBay to get your money back.
> >http://www.surplussales.com/Manuals/man_tek.html has manuals. Buy
> a cheap
> >function generator or make one using an Exar XR2206 function-
> generator IC
> >(a great first project too!).
>
> The 465 is a venerable workhorse. I've had several.
> There are alternatives in other models and brands
> that are equally useful to you and easier to learn to
> use. If you spot something on Ebay that interests you,
> drop a note about it on the 'list . . . we can take
> a peek at it and offer a not-to-exceed bid price.
> I've picked up some excellent values all for under $200
>
I'm extremely fortunate, in that there are several Iraqi commo/maintenance vans
laying in a pile near here. Sounds like its time to do some serious "looting".
I think I can probably get a dozen oscilloscopes as early as tomorrow. All
the instructions are in English and Russian, and I speak both languages, so....
>
> >7) You can't do without a prototype breadboard. It makes
> prototyping
> >and learning much easier. And a stock of parts in your junk box
> is required.
> >
> >8) Get to know Digikey, All-Electronics, and other neat
> sources of
> >parts. Get their catalogs and page through them often for a good
> education.
> When I was very young, Allied Electronics would send you
> a marvelous book for the price of a postcard. Knowing what
> things are called, what they look like, how many sizes they
> come in, what they cost and where to buy them is a huge
> data asset and the data is essentially free. All it takes
> is your time and interest to gather it up.
>
> All you'll ever want to know is probably out there on
> the 'net but the portability and true random access
> browsing features of books will never be matched by
> the CRT and keyboard.
I'll look into finding a catalog source. As a hobby, I sign up for all the junk
mail I can, knowing that this address I'm at will go away permanently when I
leave.
>
> >9) Integrated Circuits do almost everything. Get to know
> them
> >personally. When a circuit has a bunch of transistors and twenty
> or more
> >parts-know that there is an integrated circuit that does that job
> better
> >and cheaper.
> >
> >10) It puzzles beginners why there are SO MANY DARNED part
> numbers. The
> >reason is that there are so many different characteristics. Take
> >heart! Examples of the characteristics are, package details,
> voltage
> >withstand, operating temps, volts, amps, wattage, etc. etc. etc.
> etc.
> >Develop a palette of favorite parts and become familiar with
> them. Then
> >you can use different stuff when you need to satisfy special
> parameters.
> Selling electronics parts is like selling laundry
> soap. There are a few major suppliers that offer
> huge numbers of options. There are only three or
> four suppliers for all those shelves of laundry
> soap too . . . to increase market share, one has
> to have a bigger share of options even when
> differences between them is trivial.
>
> There was a note on the list earlier this week
> about a particular part number of transistor called
> out on a schematic for a DC power regulator. In
> a few years, experience and knowledge will make
> it obvious to you too that there are probably
> a thousand different parts that ALL would perform
> well in that particular circuit.
This is exciting and scary at the same time. I don't even know where to start.
>
>
> >And for free----My physics professor in electro-magnetic theory
> said to
> >me, "Take some advice.stay away from antenna design. It's all
> Black Art
> >and Voo Doo."
>
> Well put! Actually lenses mirrors have a lot to do with it.
> RF is just a lower frequency component of light and the
> two phenomenon share much in they way of behavior. However,
> it's easy to understand enough about antennas to have a
> good working knowledge without understanding all that
> makes 'em work the way they do.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
Well, I can't say I know a lot about electronics, especially since I've started
reading the Aeroelectric website. All I can say is that I share Bob's fundamental
philosophy on life. I truly believe that to codify any man's work into
a code, regulations, or law, is to destroy it. I am currently working on the
"concept" of an aircraft which is "better than certified", but don't want to be
labelled a dreamer, so I won't actually tout it until it flies. And I am rapidly
discovering that the electrics will be crucial, as most of the individual
systems' problems have relatively simple solutions. But that's all I'll share
for now.
Drew
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensing low coolant level |
Bob (Rogers),
I suggest that you ignore the water level issue all together. Once the
water level is low it's too late, you've already cooked the goose! What you
need is a water pressure gauge. Before the water level gets low, the system
has to loose some H2O molecules. For this to happen, the pressure in the
system must be vented somewhere. Normally the water system will operate at
some pressure between ambient and the pressure cap release pressure. If the
needle stays in the green between these limits, you haven't lost coolant
yet. As soon as a leak occurs, the pressure will drop to zero or peg at the
pressure cap release pressure and you can take action before the water
actually gets low. There have been articles about this in Sport Aviation
regarding care of those expensive Merlin engines in P-51s that are still
flying. Basically if the water pressure is too low or too high stop and
find out why while you can still cool the engine by boiling what little
coolant you have left. A coolant pressure change will be your first clue of
a problem.
Regards,
Bob (Lee)
______________________________
N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
91% done only 51% to go!
Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
mailto:bob(at)flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
________________________________________________________________________________
A heads up from what I just read on a builder web site.
I have read several complaints about Van's gauges not reading properly. All
of the gauge problems he had with the Van's gauges and senders were due to
the senders not being grounded. In his case he had several mounted in
insulated adell clamps on the motor mount. He grounded them and all is
well. In another case the liquid Teflon kept the sender from grounding.
Hopes this helps.
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine vibration monitor? |
I will still be mentally developing this idea. What will really get me
going on it is finding some of the parts cheap! Will make a list and keep
my eyes open.
By the way, thanks for being here!
>
>
>><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>>Just kicking the idea around to see if it would work, with out costing a
>>fortune. I am always tinkering with something.
>>
>>The biggest problem I see is relating a display change to a cause. I
>>beleive the display can provide a large amount of potential information,
>>BUT, no way to decypher it. Oh well, thinking is cheap!
>
> . . . and useful. There is as much value in deducing what
> works and is helpful as it is to figure out what doesn't work
> or creates more work/problems than it fixes. In this venue
> we're free to fully exercise this activity.
>
> I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't fully massage the idea.
> Whether if you ultimately decide to do it or not to do it, I
> hope that decision is based on your understanding of the trade-offs
> as opposed to the advice of me or anyone else.
>
> I'll suggest that the AeroElectric-List is the best place
> to explore the simple-ideas upon which you will ultimately
> ground your decision.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 10676 Domeier |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>David Domeier (davidd010(at)earthlink.net) on Friday, July 25, 2003 at 06:04:21
>
>Friday, July 25, 2003
>
>David Domeier
>
>,
>Email: davidd010(at)earthlink.net
>Comments/Questions: Bob,
>I have a problem.
>I have a Becker 4201 com and a Flightcom 403mc interphone system.
>The Becker audio signal through Flightcom is muted so much it is not
>readable with the engine running even with full volume.
>Now I find out that Flightcom requires 375 mW of audio input but Becker
>puts out 60-100 mW. (the unit is very small probably was originally
>designed for gliders)
>How can I boost the 60-100 mW or reduce the speaker output of 3W of Becker
>to make this system work?
I note from Flightcom's data that the 375 mw figure
is an OUTPUT value designed to drive 4 headsets.
This figure is very much in line with the Becker
power output probably scaled to drive one headset.
The VOLTAGE difference between 100 mw and 400 mw
is only 2x . . . and 6 decibels of gain. There's
usually a LOT of headroom in volume adjustment. I'm
wondering if something else is going on.
I've copied Becker and Flightcom on this. Let's see if we can
get one of their technicians to join the deliberations
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dynon EFIS D10 Problem |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
Hi!
>> Did you try switching transmit and receive?
>
> More importantly, do TX / RX cross over between connectors?(TX wire on one
> end is RX on ther end)
Wired mine as per Diagram and it worked fine.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland(at)onetel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Glasair smokes radios . . . |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Mike Boyles (boylesm(at)clear.net.nz) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 at 20:48:47
>
>Thursday, July 24, 2003
>
>Mike Boyles
>
>,
>Email: boylesm(at)clear.net.nz
>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob,
>
>A friend of mine has just completed a Glassair and is having trouble with
>radios and transponders failing, these failures are being blamed on poor
>quality manufacture of the avionics (Microair).
>
>I know that this Glassair is fitted with a standard automotive altenator
>with an internal regulator.
>
>I am building a (all Metal) Thorp S-18 and have dispensed with the vacum
>instruments in favour of all electric. As you recommend, I intend to fit a
>linier regulator and OV protection to protect the avionics.
Are you planning to wire per Figure Z-13?
>I suspect that the Glassair is suffering from over voltage problems and
>maybe voltage spikes caused by the composite airframe of the Glassair.
Reasonable hypothesis . . .
>Any comments you could make which regarding the voltage spikes theory and
>also guidence to relevent material on your vast website would be much
>apprediated.
You don't mention whether or not the builder is a
participant on the AeroElectric-List or if he/she
is a AeroElectric Connection reader. I suspect the
answer is "no" on both counts.
It's true that the Microair radios are particularly
vulnerable to overvoltage conditions by their
own admission in published specifications. However,
it is also true that building a stable, quiet and
failure tolerant DC power system friendly to Microair
and similar products with limited ov tolerance
is easy.
A composite airframe doesn't cause spikes (or in this
case, long duration transients needed to trash radios).
Poor system architecture, selection of components,
and in some cases, operation of the system are strong
probable causes. If he would care to share a schematic
of his power distribution system with us, perhaps we
can suggest useful changes to make his system more
stable. Do this before you start changing out components.
There is no good reason why the components you described
won't work well . . .
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | small digital voltmeter 0 -1 volt |
>
>Hiya,
>
>Here is a ultra small (1.38" x .88") 2 wire, self powered, ultra low drain,
>and accurate to .01V, digital volt meter from Datel and you can buy direct.
>I put one in my Helicopter wired directly to the battery showing the voltage
>all the time. It is worth the $30.00.
>http://store.datel.com/cgi-bin/datel.storefront/3f209f81000416c0271d0c9f8942
>064d/Product/View/8076525
This is fine for applications like monitoring bus voltage
where power to operate the instrument comes from the
source being watched . . . in this case, he needs an
instrument that will watch and display a voltage that
is less than required to operate the instrument and
delivers no POWER also necessary to operate the instrument.
He needs a device that gets operating power from beefier
sources while monitoring a second source with an output
rated in microwatts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Inductive pickup |
Hello Robert L. Nuckolls
I am jumping in only now, have not read entire.
You have to watch out on inductive pickups, that you only get 1 spark!
I put one on a Homebuilt "Roadable" hot air balloon basket, and was using a motorcycle
engine
with electronic ignition. The electronic ignition put out allot more than 1 spark
in rapid
succession.
A traditional magneto should work fine, but if you have an electronic ignition,
best check
how many sparks it creates each stroke.
I had minor success adding a capacitor and a variable resistor in series. Not close
enough
for an airplane motor though. I think i purchased it from a place like LEAF (Leading
Edge
Airfoils) or Sky Sports. It was an ultralight instrument. It also has a built in
hobbs that
is kept with a lithium battery in memory. Was an LCD Display and went to sleep
if it saw no
pulses. Worked faultless on non electronic ignitions I fooled with.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
| From: | "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)FDIC.gov> |
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:34:41 -0400
-----Original Message-----
>
>From: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)FDIC.gov>
>To: "'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'"
>Subject: Annunciator for Water Level Sensor
>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:14:36 -0400
>
>The engine that I will be installing in my kit-built Mustang II aircraft
>is water-cooled. I have a water-level sensor that I obtained from a Mazda
>RX-7 radiator, which I want to use to tell me when the water level in the
>radiator is too low. I do not have the circuitry imbedded in the car's
>computer that interprets the signal from the sensor and turns on a light
>in the car.
>
>The sensor screws into an appropriate spot in the radiator (or a fitting
>in a water hose/line) and has a current that runs from a wire attached to
>the sensor to the isolated probe that screws into the radiator and then
>flows through the water in the radiator to a ground attached to the metal
>in the radiator that touches the water. As long is there is water at the
>level of the sensor, the current flows, but if the water drops below the
>sensor, the current stops.
>
>My question is this: What sort of circuit do I need to allow an
>annunciator light on the instrument panel to turn on when the water in the
>radiator gets too low? The current flow through the water is subject to
>some resistance (5 to 10 thousand ohms as measured by my Multimeter). I
>need something that will cause a separate circuit with a light bulb in it
>to turn on when the flow of current through the sensor stops, i.e. no
>water is touching the sensor. Any ideas?
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
Can't answer your question without knowing more about the physics
of how the Mazda sensor operates. I THINK those were a power thermistor
that was monitored for resistance change when power was applied to
the sensor. If the resistance did change, then it was NOT submerged
in liquid, if it did not change, then water level was sufficient
to keep the sensor covered.
There are other possibilities. I did a Google search on this
topic and only found discussions on Mazda radiator leaks
and fragility of these sensors, seems it's easy to pull the
connections out of them.
One writer noted that they're only $12 part. Might drop by
a parts store and get one to bring home and see if I can
figure out how it works and what's necessary to communicate
with one of them.
Alternatively, there are other technologies and components
suited to this task that are more plug-n-play. For example,
a number of companies make products like this:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/OS-10_Series.pdf
wherein you put the sensor through the wall of the tank,
hook up 12 volts and a light bulb and you're done.
Very user friendly.
Bob . . .
The water level sensor looks like this:
It appears to be nothing more than a wire and a probe through which
electricity passes. It screws into the top of the radiator. If the
radiator has water touching the sensor probe, then the electricity will flow
through it to a ground on the radiator. If the water level is too low,
there will not be a completed circuit. My challenge is how to use this
information to activate a light/annunciator on the instrument panel when
there is no current flowing through the sensor. Is there some sort of
inexpensive relay that can be hooked up to this circuit that will activate a
separate circuit to the annunciator when the current to this sensor is
removed? If so, how do I determine the characteristics of the relay, such
as the amount of current to needed to activate it? I assume that the
current flowing through the water level sensor (when there is enough water
in the radiator)would be sufficient to activate a relay.
RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
-----Original Message-----
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by:
From: Rogers, Bob J. BRogers(at)FDIC.gov
Subject: Annunciator for Water Level Sensor
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:14:36 -0400
The engine that I will be installing in my kit-built Mustang II aircraft
is water-cooled. I have a water-level sensor that I obtained from a Mazda
RX-7 radiator, which I want to use to tell me when the water level in the
radiator is too low. I do not have the circuitry imbedded in the car's
computer that interprets the signal from the sensor and turns on a light
in the car.
The sensor screws into an appropriate spot in the radiator (or a fitting
in a water hose/line) and has a current that runs from a wire attached to
the sensor to the isolated probe that screws into the radiator and then
flows through the water in the radiator to a ground attached to the metal
in the radiator that touches the water. As long is there is water at the
level of the sensor, the current flows, but if the water drops below the
sensor, the current stops.
My question is this: What sort of circuit do I need to allow an
annunciator light on the instrument panel to turn on when the water in the
radiator gets too low? The current flow through the water is subject to
some resistance (5 to 10 thousand ohms as measured by my Multimeter). I
need something that will cause a separate circuit with a light bulb in it
to turn on when the flow of current through the sensor stops, i.e. no
water is touching the sensor. Any ideas?
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [<A HREF"mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net">mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
Can't answer your question without knowing more about the physics
of how the Mazda sensor operates. I THINK those were a power thermistor
that was monitored for resistance change when power was applied to
the sensor. If the resistance did change, then it was NOT submerged
in liquid, if it did not change, then water level was sufficient
to keep the sensor covered.
There are other possibilities. I did a Google search on this
topic and only found discussions on Mazda radiator leaks
and fragility of these sensors, seems it's easy to pull the
connections out of them.
One writer noted that they're only $12 part. Might drop by
a parts store and get one to bring home and see if I can
figure out how it works and what's necessary to communicate
with one of them.
Alternatively, there are other technologies and components
suited to this task that are more plug-n-play. For example,
a number of companies make products like this:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/OS-10_Series.pdf
wherein you put the sensor through the wall of the tank,
hook up 12 volts and a light bulb and you're done.
Very user friendly.
Bob . . .
The water level sensor looks like this:
It appears to be nothing more than a wire and a probe through which electricity
passes. It screws into the top of the radiator. If the radiator has water touching
the sensor probe, then the electricity will flow through it to a ground
on the radiator. If the water level is too low, there will not be a completed
circuit. My challenge is how to use this information to activate a light/annunciator
on the instrument panel when there is no current flowing through the sensor.
Is there some sort of inexpensive relay that can be hooked up to this circuit
that will activate a separate circuit to the annunciator when the current
to this sensor is removed? If so, how do I determine the characteristics of
the relay, such as the amount of current to needed to activate it? I assume that
the current flowing through the water level sensor (when there is enough water
in the radiator)would be sufficient to activate a relay.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Mark S. wrote:
>Sounds like Digi-Key's price beats Pegasus by a wide margin.
>
><<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>
>
>Forgive me for responding to this. I try to avoid posting anything that
>sounds commercial on the list. However, I would like to point out a major
>difference between the Panasonic battery that Digi-Key sells and the battery
>that Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies sells (my wife and I own Pegasus).
>
>It's hard to imagine a tougher shock and vibration environment for a battery
>than an open wheel formula car. The fastest line through a corner is often
>over the curbing (complete with rumble strips). The suspension is so stiff
>that the tire often provides the majority of the effective spring rate. The
>Panasonic battery that Digi-Key sells has lead terminal posts. Batteries
>with lead posts are not very reliable under this pounding. It's possible
>that if every racer used very limp welding cable to connect the battery as
>recommended by Bob Nuckolls, failures would be rare, but not too many racers
>have read the AeroElectric Connection. A small formula car doesn't have an
>alternator. The battery is charged between on-track sessions. If a post
>breaks or if a connection becomes loose due to compression of the lead or
>inadequate installation torque, you DNF.
>
>The 18 Amp-Hr battery that Pegasus sells has a hard alloy terminal that is
>about 0.080 thick x 0.48 wide with a clearance hole for AN3 attachment
>hardware. I don't know what the terminal material is off the top of my head
>but is appears to be as hard as steel with a heavy zinc plating. You can
>torque the attachment hardware as you would any structural application and
>the terminal post does not deform. We've had no reports of terminal failures
>since switching to this design. While a lead terminal will probably give
>very reliable service in an airplane, the same has not been the case for our
>racing customers.
>
>If you check the AeroElectric List archives from April 2003, you will find
>mention of a broken terminal on a Panasonic battery (search for: "RG battery
>heads-up").
>
>Digi-Key is a fine company. I have purchased Panasonic batteries from them -
>you can't beat the price. But Pegasus does not sell Panasonic batteries so
>comparing the price is comparing apples to oranges. If we bought batteries
>by the container full, we could probably lower the price considerably.
>Unfortunately we don't sell as many as Digi-Key does. At Pegasus our goals
>are to sell the best product for our customer's application, provide the
>best customer service and to keep our prices competitive.
>
>Sorry about the semi-commercial message, but I felt that I had to address
>the reason for the price difference and to point out the difference in
>terminals on the two batteries in question.
Understand . . . and everything you say is true. But my question
is, how is it significant to anyone's deliberations on component
selection for building their airplane?
I could echo your concerns and then top them by recommending
that one consider only Genesis series batteries by Hawker
that feature molded-in, virtually indestructible
inserts for connection terminals. Next step up the ladder
might include a narrative on batteries we've just selected
to power a new target that gets 33g linear acceleration
and 20g vibration testing and features extremely robust
construction just for the purpose of conducing a single
3-minute flight at M2.5.
I would offer that our airplanes are really not all that
harsh an environment. After all, these are supposed to
be machines in which we expect to deposit our persons
to conduct 4 hour legs in reasonable comfort. We might
also expect to enjoy new-age stereo music in the headsets.
The key statement in your note might be "best product for our
customer's application" but the magnitude of "best" is not
quantifiable.
If one is worried about one (or several) story
about broken battery posts, then to what degree should
the design be modified to mitigate the risk? Soft cables
is one, more robust posts come in all varieties up to
and including weapons grade environments, backup battery
is yet another.
I've suggested that the best VALUE comes from building
a failure tolerant system (which, if the builder chooses,
can include broken battery posts) with the most economical
components. This is particularly true of batteries if one
subscribes to the yearly change-out philosophy as
cheap insurance against loss of battery capacity.
There's no argument contrary to your assertion of
improved performance based on configuration and materials
selection of the battery post. I hope that folks
select all components for their airplane based on
combinations of understanding of real requirements
and a consideration of market history. I saw my first
lead-post, 17 a.h. battery in 1986 when Bill was selling
the Sonnenshein gels out of the booth at OSH.
Since that time, there has been a ton of service
history gained on these and similar products.
I'm unaware of any preponderance events that
suggest the lead-post battery should be avoided.
If this is a significant concern for anyone, there are
a number of RG/SVLA batteries out there with terminal
technologies other than lead.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: coolant level detection |
>
>The water level sensor looks like this:
>
>
>It appears to be nothing more than a wire and a probe through which
>electricity passes. It screws into the top of the radiator. If the
>radiator has water touching the sensor probe, then the electricity will
>flow through it to a ground on the radiator. If the water level is too
>low, there will not be a completed circuit. My challenge is how to use
>this information to activate a light/annunciator on the instrument panel
>when there is no current flowing through the sensor. Is there some sort of
>inexpensive relay that can be hooked up to this circuit that will activate
>a separate circuit to the annunciator when the current to this sensor is
>removed? If so, how do I determine the characteristics of the relay, such
>as the amount of current to needed to activate it? I assume that the
>current flowing through the water level sensor (when there is enough water
>in the radiator)would be sufficient to activate a relay.
Hmmm . . . hadn't considered this option. A simple
probe immersed in radiator contents might show some
characteristic of resistance to indicate presence of
fluid.
Went out to the garage and dipped a piece of brass
into the radiator with ohmmeter attached. Other
lead of ohmmeter connected to radiator tank.
. . . got an initial reading of NEGATIVE ohms
which shows that the system being measured was
acting more like a battery than a resistor.
Switching to volts display showed that the piece
of brass was running at -0.5 volts with respect
to radiator tank. This tells us that pH of the
radiator fluid combined with electro-motive
series differences between tank and piece of
brass formed a 1/2 volt battery.
The probe you have may be a plain-vanilla material
or perhaps selected to enhance the battery effects.
I guess I'll stop by a parts store and pick one
up to see.
Irrespective of whether battery or resistor
characteristics are being exploited, there will
be some kind of electronics involved in making
interface between sensor and lamp. In either
case, it will be simple.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensing low coolant level |
>. A coolant pressure change will be your first clue of
>a problem.
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob (Lee)
Good point! What say you Mr. Rogers, want to continue
an exploration of the Mazda sensor interface or is
a coolant pressure display more attractive?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine vibration monitor? |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I will still be mentally developing this idea. What will really get me
>going on it is finding some of the parts cheap! Will make a list and keep
>my eyes open.
>
>By the way, thanks for being here!
Okay, do a google search on piezo vibration sensors like
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2547732459&category=1504
charge amplifiers
http://216.55.140.222/temp/ChargeAmp.pdf
and look through the ap notes on precision rectifiers
http://216.55.140.222/temp/LB-8.pdf
Alternatively, you can go to sensors with voltage outputs
that are a bit easier to use but maybe harder to find
with temperature ratings suited for bolting to engine.
Here's an example:
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/463943887ADXL190_0.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensing low coolant level |
>
>
> >. A coolant pressure change will be your first clue of
> >a problem.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Bob (Lee)
>
>
> Good point! What say you Mr. Rogers, want to continue
> an exploration of the Mazda sensor interface or is
> a coolant pressure display more attractive?
>
> Bob . . .
>
I recommend the coolant pressure gauge. I fly a water cooled rotary engine
in an RV-6A and wouldn't fly without my coolant pressure gauge. It not only
will let you know quickly if you have a leak - even a small one, but you
will also get use to comparing coolant temps and coolant pressure and an
adnormal comparison (even if temperature might read OK) might be your first
indication of a problem. For example if a coolant leak between your
combustion chamber and coolant system occurred, the coolant temp might still
read in the green, but your coolant pressure is likely to be quite high due
to combustion gas pressuring the coolant system. This overpressure will
likely push your coolant out your overflow relief tube if not corrected.
FWIW
Ed Anderson
RV-6A Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine vibration monitor? |
Wow, alot more info than I expected. Again many thanks!
>
>
>><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>>I will still be mentally developing this idea. What will really get me
>>going on it is finding some of the parts cheap! Will make a list and keep
>>my eyes open.
>>
>>By the way, thanks for being here!
>
>
> Okay, do a google search on piezo vibration sensors like
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2547732459&category=1504
>
> charge amplifiers
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/ChargeAmp.pdf
>
> and look through the ap notes on precision rectifiers
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/LB-8.pdf
>
> Alternatively, you can go to sensors with voltage outputs
> that are a bit easier to use but maybe harder to find
> with temperature ratings suited for bolting to engine.
>
> Here's an example:
>
> http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/463943887ADXL190_0.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
| From: | "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)FDIC.gov> |
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:02:55 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
>. A coolant pressure change will be your first clue of
>a problem.
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob (Lee)
Good point! What say you Mr. Rogers, want to continue
an exploration of the Mazda sensor interface or is
a coolant pressure display more attractive?
Bob . . .
I already have a water temp and pressure gauge, and the pressure gauge is
already plumbed into the system. Water pressure can vary a lot and still be
OK, therefore, I would like also to know when the water level is getting
low, hence my interest in how to hook up the water level sensor, which I
have already gotten. By the way, I tested the sensor with an ohmmeter by
immersing its probe into a pan of tap water. With the positive end of the
ohmmeter attached to the sensor lead and the negative end of the ohmmeter in
the water (about two inches away), I got approximately 5,000 ohms
resistance. When I touched the negative end of my meter directly to the
probe, I got virtually zero resistance. With the probe out of the water, I
got infinite resistance. I guess the level of resistance in the water
depends somewhat on the purity (high resistance)or contamination (lower
resistance) of the water. At any rate, I would appreciate any hints on how
to construct a circuit to use the Mazda water level sensor as I have
previously envisioned. Thank you for your interest and advice.
Bob Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: small digital voltmeter 0 -1 volt |
Try this...
http://www.simpsonelectric.com/dpmind.htm
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: small digital voltmeter 0 -1 volt
>
> >
> >Hiya,
> >
> >Here is a ultra small (1.38" x .88") 2 wire, self powered, ultra low
drain,
> >and accurate to .01V, digital volt meter from Datel and you can buy
direct.
> >I put one in my Helicopter wired directly to the battery showing the
voltage
> >all the time. It is worth the $30.00.
>
>http://store.datel.com/cgi-bin/datel.storefront/3f209f81000416c0271d0c9f894
2
> >064d/Product/View/8076525
>
>
> This is fine for applications like monitoring bus voltage
> where power to operate the instrument comes from the
> source being watched . . . in this case, he needs an
> instrument that will watch and display a voltage that
> is less than required to operate the instrument and
> delivers no POWER also necessary to operate the instrument.
>
> He needs a device that gets operating power from beefier
> sources while monitoring a second source with an output
> rated in microwatts.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Palm + Grand Rapids EIS |
| From: | Bob Bittner <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com> |
07/25/2003 02:45:14 PM,
Serialize complete at 07/25/2003 02:45:14 PM
Hi All.
Anyone out there with a Grand Rapids EIS and interest in using their
PalmPilot for displaying and logging the data?
I've written software for that.. graphs, big numbers, etc...very
configurable. contact me if interested. I'll be at OSH.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Dumb fuse question |
Bob, et.al.,
My transponder and my altitude encoder each specify 2 amp fuses. I've
run out of pins on my fuse panel. Thus, I would like to connect both the
transponder and the encoder power leads to the same connector pin on my
fuse panel.
Question: Do I use a 2 amp fuse? Or, should I use a 4 amp fuse and put
inline 2 amp fuses to each box?
Charlie
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dumb fuse question |
Fuses exist to protect wires. They are not there to protect the device.
Put both on the circuit, use a 4 or 5 Amp fuse and as long as you use 20 or
22AWG wire you're good to go.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Brame" <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dumb fuse question
>
> Bob, et.al.,
>
> My transponder and my altitude encoder each specify 2 amp fuses. I've
> run out of pins on my fuse panel. Thus, I would like to connect both the
> transponder and the encoder power leads to the same connector pin on my
> fuse panel.
>
> Question: Do I use a 2 amp fuse? Or, should I use a 4 amp fuse and put
> inline 2 amp fuses to each box?
>
> Charlie
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Dual Battery / Single Alternator |
I don't really see how this is ANY different than any other duel
electronic ignition system. Without a Mag you must have two batteries
to run the system. I just got off the phone with Jeff Rose, he doesn't
want any of his systems installed without a second battery for safety.
Aerosance is no different ... just more sophisticated balancing fuel and
ignition. By the way, the system will operate down to 6 volts and their
'backup' battery in the STC installation is a small Johnson Controls
battery good for several hours.
I guess I don't understand the criticism of Aerosance for trying to
bring aircraft control systems into the 21st century. But I'm sure EFIS
was criticized again 'steam gages' when it was released into the GA jet
population. Without backup electronics it would be dead too.
DWS
>> The Aerosance FADEC goes brain-dead at cranking
>> voltages on some battery combinations. They
>> recommend an auxiliary power supply in the form
>> of second battery that is not used for cranking.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Battery / Single Alternator
Yep, tis true. Just install a larger battery on the starter, although
depending on temp and engine, the single 17AH battery may be all you
need.
John
PS: I know that the Aerosance FADEC has been criticized for this, but it
should be evaluated on its other merits and using the criteria of what
you
want out of your power plant.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dumb fuse question |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
A few people may jump in on this one, but I'll take a stab
at it anyway.
Have you read Mr Nuckolls fine Aeroelectric Connection book?
The answer for fuse sizes is in there. There have also been
discussions about this before that can be seen in the archive.
Never the less, circuit protection, to be useful, must do two
things. The first is that its rating must be small enough so
that in the case of shorting the wire that it feeds to ground,
the protection opens the circuit before the wire overheats (and
causes further damage, fire, or other mahem).
The other thing the circuit protection must do (the obvious
one) is be large enough to carry the loads required by the
consumers on the circuit. As you realized, a single 2A fuse
may not cut it if you hang another device on it.
So, you need to consider whether the size of the wire in that
circuit is up to carrying the current required to open the
next larger sized fuse.
A couple of questions for you... Most encoders that I have
seen are powered by the transponder. I have assumed that the
power budget for the encoder can be included in the transponder.
Now that you mention it, I am less certain of this. None the
less, I am skeptical that a transponder and encoder wired together
would draw more than 1-2A together.
Another issue is fuse size. I think 3A is a common ATC fuse
size. I'll bet that you can get away with a 3A for the circuit
you are wiring. I have a Microair T2000 with an Ameriking enc
that has been working well so far with a 3A ATC fuse. The worst
case scenario is that you get some nuisance trips, at which point
you can reevaluate.
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> Bob, et.al.,
>
> My transponder and my altitude encoder each specify 2 amp fuses. I've
> run out of pins on my fuse panel. Thus, I would like to connect both the
> transponder and the encoder power leads to the same connector pin on my
> fuse panel.
>
> Question: Do I use a 2 amp fuse? Or, should I use a 4 amp fuse and put
> inline 2 amp fuses to each box?
>
> Charlie
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
| From: | "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca> |
Subject: Tach signals?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:44:53 -0700
Hi Bob;
This current discussion of the Tiny Tach is somewhat timely for me
as I'm dealing with my own tach issues.
I have a 13B Mazda rotary in my RV-9 with an EC2 engine controller from Real
World Solutions. I'm ready for final inspection as soon as I take care of
this.
I've tried a couple of approaches. I bought a Hastings tach, which
I've currently connected to the EC2 tach output. Now this is a 12 pulse/rev
signal for a high resolution tach, like the EIS. So with the tach set for an
8 cylinder 4 stroke, it should read 3X higher than actual. My test runs show
this to be right (I think),
RWS suggested that a trigger signal from a coil trigger would work.
However this should produce 1/2 the actual signal, when set for a 4
cylinder. So I theorized that a 2 stroke tach may produce an accurate signal
so I grabbed a Bombardier tach and wired it into a coil trigger, but I found
that this didn't work at all. I'm not certain why, as the coil trigger
should give at least some signal. My new ski-doo has a digital engine
management computer, which provides the tach signal, so I'm thinking that it
may be a high resolution signal. No dice. It shows zero while connected to
the tach output or the coil trigger.
I looked at a diesel tach. It runs off a sensor that is mounted on
the alternator. The back of the gauge has an adjustment pot, to calibrate
tach to a known RPM. Just need to get an optical tach for the prop speed
then do the math. The problem with this is that the tach face is only up to
6000 rpm. As my upper limit should be approx. 6200 rpm, this would barely
work, but I'd like to find something better.
The Tiny Tach as well as the Micro 1000 was suggested and another
builder who is at the same stage has ordered one to test, but I borrowed an
inductive test tach (SunTune - an analog dial with settings for 2 or 4
stroke) and clipped it on the plug wires... and still zero. I tried all
settings on all 4 wires under various engine speeds, but still nothing. I'm
pretty darn sure that I've got good spark, 'cause the engine sure is smooth
and powerful :-). My timing light has the same type of inductive clip for
the spark plug wires and it works fine. The clip is directional (little
arrow points to the plug) and I ensured it was on correctly, but just to
check I even reversed it, but no luck. I checked the operation of the test
tach on my Jeep and it works fine. So this leads me to question whether the
Tiny Tach will work either.
In the meantime... This morning I got to thinking that all I really
need to do is divide the 12pulse/rev high resolution signal from the EC2 by
3, then a tach set for an 8 cylinder, 4 stroke should read correctly. So
after a little research, I ordered a NTE4526B programmable divide-by-"N"
4-bit binary counter. So long as I don't need to do any signal conditioning,
I should be able to solder this to a small piece of breadboard, with jumpers
on the appropriate pins and leads, and it should work great. Maybe.
Do you have any suggestions as to why the coil trigger signal fails
to work as well as the inductive pickup? What about the divide-by-"N"
counter for the high resolution signal?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B
RX-9endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-Albert Einstein
Tach signals?
Hi Bob;
This current discussion of the Tiny Tach is somewhat timely for me as I'm dealing
with my own tach issues.
I have a 13B Mazda rotary in my RV-9 with an EC2 engine controller from Real World
Solutions. I'm ready for final inspection as soon as I take care of this.
I've tried a couple of approaches. I bought a Hastings tach, which I've currently
connected to the EC2 tach output. Now this is a 12 pulse/rev signal for a
high resolution tach, like the EIS. So with the tach set for an 8 cylinder 4 stroke,
it should read 3X higher than actual. My test runs show this to be right
(I think),
RWS suggested that a trigger signal from a coil trigger would work. However this
should produce 1/2 the actual signal, when set for a 4 cylinder. So I theorized
that a 2 stroke tach may produce an accurate signal so I grabbed a Bombardier
tach and wired it into a coil trigger, but I found that this didn't work
at all. I'm not certain why, as the coil trigger should give at least some signal.
My new ski-doo has a digital engine management computer, which provides the
tach signal, so I'm thinking that it may be a high resolution signal. No dice.
It shows zero while connected to the tach output or the coil trigger.
I looked at a diesel tach. It runs off a sensor that is mounted on the alternator.
The back of the gauge has an adjustment pot, to calibrate tach to a known
RPM. Just need to get an optical tach for the prop speed then do the math. The
problem with this is that the tach face is only up to 6000 rpm. As my upper
limit should be approx. 6200 rpm, this would barely work, but I'd like to find
something better.
The Tiny Tach as well as the Micro 1000 was suggested and another builder who
is at the same stage has ordered one to test, but I borrowed an inductive test
tach (SunTune - an analog dial with settings for 2 or 4 stroke) and clipped it
on the plug wires... and still zero. I tried all settings on all 4 wires under
various engine speeds, but still nothing. I'm pretty darn sure that I've got
good spark, 'cause the engine sure is smooth and powerful :-). My timing light
has the same type of inductive clip for the spark plug wires and it works fine.
The clip is directional (little arrow points to the plug) and I ensured it
was on correctly, but just to check I even reversed it, but no luck. I checked
the operation of the test tach on my Jeep and it works fine. So this leads
me to question whether the Tiny Tach will work either.
In the meantime... This morning I got to thinking that all I really need to do
is divide the 12pulse/rev high resolution signal from the EC2 by 3, then a tach
set for an 8 cylinder, 4 stroke should read correctly. So after a little research,
I ordered a NTE4526B programmable divide-by-N 4-bit binary counter. So
long as I don't need to do any signal conditioning, I should be able to solder
this to a small piece of breadboard, with jumpers on the appropriate pins and
leads, and it should work great. Maybe.
Do you have any suggestions as to why the coil trigger signal fails to work as
well as the inductive pickup? What about the divide-by-N counter for the high
resolution signal?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B
RX-9endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RSwanson" <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
From aero-news.net:
"Garmin International Inc. dropped 'the bomb'
late Thursday: they have a definitive agreement to acquire UPS
Aviation Technologies, Inc. for $38 million in cash. "
Thought someone might be interested in this note.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finnlassen(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine vibration monitor? |
Analog Devices ADXL05 or ADXL50 from Newark Electronics..
Finn
Scott Bilinski wrote:
>
>I will still be mentally developing this idea. What will really get me
>going on it is finding some of the parts cheap! Will make a list and keep
>my eyes open.
>
>By the way, thanks for being here!
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>>
>>>Just kicking the idea around to see if it would work, with out costing a
>>>fortune. I am always tinkering with something.
>>>
>>>The biggest problem I see is relating a display change to a cause. I
>>>beleive the display can provide a large amount of potential information,
>>>BUT, no way to decypher it. Oh well, thinking is cheap!
>>>
>>>
>> . . . and useful. There is as much value in deducing what
>> works and is helpful as it is to figure out what doesn't work
>> or creates more work/problems than it fixes. In this venue
>> we're free to fully exercise this activity.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't fully massage the idea.
>> Whether if you ultimately decide to do it or not to do it, I
>> hope that decision is based on your understanding of the trade-offs
>> as opposed to the advice of me or anyone else.
>>
>> I'll suggest that the AeroElectric-List is the best place
>> to explore the simple-ideas upon which you will ultimately
>> ground your decision.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Scott Bilinski
>Eng dept 305
>Phone (858) 657-2536
>Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Panel layout - request for comments |
I've a grand total of sixty hours flying time, and here am I trying to put
together a panel that will last me for about forty years of flying! I guess
many people on this list have a great deal of flying experience, and
therefore I'd be very grateful if you would have a squint at my proposed
panel layout and make any comments.
http://etravel.org/images/panel.gif (29kB)
It's fairly normal, you might say -- an amalgam of the few types I've
flown -- and I've tried to think about it from a usability point of view, but
any views from your own experience would be most appreciated.
Many thanks.
Nev
--
Jodel D150 in progress
UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Battery / Single Alternator |
>
>
>I don't really see how this is ANY different than any other duel
>electronic ignition system. Without a Mag you must have two batteries
>to run the system. I just got off the phone with Jeff Rose, he doesn't
>want any of his systems installed without a second battery for safety.
>Aerosance is no different ... just more sophisticated balancing fuel and
>ignition. By the way, the system will operate down to 6 volts and their
>'backup' battery in the STC installation is a small Johnson Controls
>battery good for several hours.
It is "different" in that the system MUST have a separate
battery suited for cranking. Granted, one battery can be
small compared to the other, but if one wanted to take
advantage of the weight reduction and performance enhancement
of cranking with both SMALL batteries a al Fig Z-14, it
can't be done with Aerosance FADEC.
>I guess I don't understand the criticism of Aerosance for trying to
>bring aircraft control systems into the 21st century. But I'm sure EFIS
>was criticized again 'steam gages' when it was released into the GA jet
>population. Without backup electronics it would be dead too.
My understanding is that it won't work at battery voltages
typical of engine cranking . . . on the order of 8-9 volts
worst case. Where did you get the 6v figure?
If the system was minimally operational at 6v, then cranking
wouldn't be a problem.
Just so folks understand the criticism . . . I find it
mystifying that a company would spend what must have cost
$millions$ to design, fabricate, certify, manufacture and
market what is obviously a leading edge product and then
"stub their toe" on something so simple as keeping minimally
operational so as to get the engine started from the same
battery. Gee, cars have been doing this for decades.
Worse yet, because they have chosen to play in the
certified sandbox, likelihood that their product will
evolve for the better is dismally remote . . . which
puts still more pressure on the notion of getting it
all done and all right the first time out. There are
millions of cars ALREADY gone to the junkyards
with higher order technology than will ever exist
in perhaps ten thousand certified light aircraft
that will receive the Aerosance FADEC.
It's obviously not a big deal to their marketplace.
Folks who don't design electronics yet desire what the
Aerosance system offers are happily willing to
install the extra battery and the astounding wad of wire
it takes to make this system play.
The only folks who are complaining are guys like
me who are never going to buy one anyhow. So don't
loose any sleep over it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dawson, Bill" <Bill.Dawson(at)pepperdine.edu> |
Is Garmin going to kill the UPS line?
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: RSwanson [mailto:rswan19(at)comcast.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: UPSAT
From aero-news.net:
"Garmin International Inc. dropped 'the bomb'
late Thursday: they have a definitive agreement to acquire UPS
Aviation Technologies, Inc. for $38 million in cash. "
Thought someone might be interested in this note.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
It will probably incorporate UPSAT's technology and kill the UPS product
line. Now maybe we'll get airways on the GNS 430/530.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Dawson, Bill
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: UPSAT
Is Garmin going to kill the UPS line?
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: RSwanson [mailto:rswan19(at)comcast.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: UPSAT
From aero-news.net:
"Garmin International Inc. dropped 'the bomb'
late Thursday: they have a definitive agreement to acquire UPS
Aviation Technologies, Inc. for $38 million in cash. "
Thought someone might be interested in this note.
R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 7/25/03 5:47:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:
> It will probably incorporate UPSAT's technology and kill the UPS product
> line. Now maybe we'll get airways on the GNS 430/530.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
According to the press release, they will maintain the UPS group as a
separate entity.
Even if that does happen, competition is gone. It is rare day when
eliminating competition holds any advantage for we consumers.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Breakers & disable switches |
I have just about figured out the wiring diagram for my RV-8A, and I had a
couple of questions. I will be using a version of Bob's Z-11 generic light
aircraft electrical system with fuse blocks and an E-bus.
First question: Blue Mountain Avionics wants me to turn off their EFIS/1
system to start, or have it on a separate electrical system. If I put an
on-off switch for the EFIS system, might that just as well be a breaker
switch, and if so, should it come off the E-bus, or just off the battery
with a fusible link?
Lightspeed also wants a pullable breaker for their ignition (right side only
on my engine). I haven't yet figured out why.
Second question, somewhat related to the first: I am considering adding
disable switches to the electric trim, flaps, autopilot and back seater's
flap & trim switches. Again, same question as above: If I add a switch,
would it be better for that to be a breaker switch or a pullable breaker and
forget the fuse, or in addition to the fuse? The switch or the breaker is
the same parts count.
One last question for now, relating to Faston terminals. When I take the
screw and nut off one of the terminals of the flap switch that came from
Van's, it looks just like the Faston terminal on the Carling switches I got
from B&C, except the hole in it is a little bigger. Can I just throw away
the screw and nut and use a Faston? Did everybody but me know that?
Thanks for your comments.
Terry
RV-8A finish
Seattle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
| From: | "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca> |
Subject: Tach Signals?
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:15:01 -0700
I'm reposting this as it came through a little strange last time?
Hi Bob;
This current discussion of the Tiny Tach is somewhat timely for me
as I'm dealing with my own tach issues.
I have a 13B Mazda rotary in my RV-9 with an EC2 engine controller from Real
World Solutions. I'm ready for final inspection as soon as I take care of
this.
I've tried a couple of approaches. I bought a Hastings tach, which
I've currently connected to the EC2 tach output. Now this is a 12 pulse/rev
signal for a high resolution tach, like the EIS. So with the tach set for an
8 cylinder 4 stroke, it should read 3X higher than actual. My test runs show
this to be right (I think),
RWS suggested that a trigger signal from a coil trigger would work.
However this should produce 1/2 the actual signal, when set for a 4
cylinder. So I theorized that a 2 stroke tach may produce an accurate signal
so I grabbed a Bombardier tach and wired it into a coil trigger, but I found
that this didn't work at all. I'm not certain why, as the coil trigger
should give at least some signal. My new ski-doo has a digital engine
management computer, which provides the tach signal, so I'm thinking that it
may be a high resolution signal. No dice. It shows zero while connected to
the tach output or the coil trigger.
I looked at a diesel tach. It runs off a sensor that is mounted on
the alternator. The back of the gauge has an adjustment pot, to calibrate
tach to a known RPM. Just need to get an optical tach for the prop speed
then do the math. The problem with this is that the tach face is only up to
6000 rpm. As my upper limit should be approx. 6200 rpm, this would barely
work, but I'd like to find something better.
The Tiny Tach as well as the Micro 1000 was suggested and another
builder who is at the same stage has ordered one to test, but I borrowed an
inductive test tach (SunTune - an analog dial with settings for 2 or 4
stroke) and clipped it on the plug wires... and still zero. I tried all
settings on all 4 wires under various engine speeds, but still nothing. I'm
pretty darn sure that I've got good spark, 'cause the engine sure is smooth
and powerful :-). My timing light has the same type of inductive clip for
the spark plug wires and it works fine. The clip is directional (little
arrow points to the plug) and I ensured it was on correctly, but just to
check I even reversed it, but no luck. I checked the operation of the test
tach on my Jeep and it works fine. So this leads me to question whether the
Tiny Tach will work either.
In the meantime... This morning I got to thinking that all I really
need to do is divide the 12pulse/rev high resolution signal from the EC2 by
3, then a tach set for an 8 cylinder, 4 stroke should read correctly. So
after a little research, I ordered a NTE4526B programmable divide-by-"N"
4-bit binary counter. So long as I don't need to do any signal conditioning,
I should be able to solder this to a small piece of breadboard, with jumpers
on the appropriate pins and leads, and it should work great. Maybe.
Do you have any suggestions as to why the coil trigger signal fails
to work as well as the inductive pickup? What about the divide-by-"N"
counter for the high resolution signal?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B
RX-9endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-Albert Einstein
Tach Signals?
I'm reposting this as it came through a little strange last time?
Hi Bob;
This current discussion of the Tiny Tach is somewhat timely for me
as I'm dealing with my own tach issues.
I have a 13B Mazda rotary in my RV-9 with an EC2 engine controller from Real
World Solutions. I'm ready for final inspection as soon as I take care of
this.
I've tried a couple of approaches. I bought a Hastings tach, which
I've currently connected to the EC2 tach output. Now this is a 12 pulse/rev
signal for a high resolution tach, like the EIS. So with the tach set for an
8 cylinder 4 stroke, it should read 3X higher than actual. My test runs show
this to be right (I think),
RWS suggested that a trigger signal from a coil trigger would work.
However this should produce 1/2 the actual signal, when set for a 4
cylinder. So I theorized that a 2 stroke tach may produce an accurate signal
so I grabbed a Bombardier tach and wired it into a coil trigger, but I found
that this didn't work at all. I'm not certain why, as the coil trigger
should give at least some signal. My new ski-doo has a digital engine
management computer, which provides the tach signal, so I'm thinking that it
may be a high resolution signal. No dice. It shows zero while connected to
the tach output or the coil trigger.
I looked at a diesel tach. It runs off a sensor that is mounted on
the alternator. The back of the gauge has an adjustment pot, to calibrate
tach to a known RPM. Just need to get an optical tach for the prop speed
then do the math. The problem with this is that the tach face is only up to
6000 rpm. As my upper limit should be approx. 6200 rpm, this would barely
work, but I'd like to find something better.
The Tiny Tach as well as the Micro 1000 was suggested and another
builder who is at the same stage has ordered one to test, but I borrowed an
inductive test tach (SunTune - an analog dial with settings for 2 or 4
stroke) and clipped it on the plug wires... and still zero. I tried all
settings on all 4 wires under various engine speeds, but still nothing. I'm
pretty darn sure that I've got good spark, 'cause the engine sure is smooth
and powerful :-). My timing light has the same type of inductive clip for
the spark plug wires and it works fine. The clip is directional (little
arrow points to the plug) and I ensured it was on correctly, but just to
check I even reversed it, but no luck. I checked the operation of the test
tach on my Jeep and it works fine. So this leads me to question whether the
Tiny Tach will work either.
In the meantime... This morning I got to thinking that all I really
need to do is divide the 12pulse/rev high resolution signal from the EC2 by
3, then a tach set for an 8 cylinder, 4 stroke should read correctly. So
after a little research, I ordered a NTE4526B programmable divide-by-N
4-bit binary counter. So long as I don't need to do any signal conditioning,
I should be able to solder this to a small piece of breadboard, with jumpers
on the appropriate pins and leads, and it should work great. Maybe.
Do you have any suggestions as to why the coil trigger signal fails
to work as well as the inductive pickup? What about the divide-by-N
counter for the high resolution signal?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B
RX-9endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RSwanson" <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
You need to quit posting in HTML!!
----- Original Message -----
From: <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>
>
> From: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim(at)mail.canfor.ca>
> To: "'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'"
> Subject: Tach Signals?
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:15:01 -0700
>
> I'm reposting this as it came through a little strange last time?
>
> Hi Bob;
> This current discussion of the Tiny Tach is somewhat timely for
me
> as I'm dealing with my own tach issues.
>
> I have a 13B Mazda rotary in my RV-9 with an EC2 engine controller from
Real
> World Solutions. I'm ready for final inspection as soon as I take care of
> this.
> I've tried a couple of approaches. I bought a Hastings tach,
which
> I've currently connected to the EC2 tach output. Now this is a 12
pulse/rev
> signal for a high resolution tach, like the EIS. So with the tach set for
an
> 8 cylinder 4 stroke, it should read 3X higher than actual. My test runs
show
> this to be right (I think),
> RWS suggested that a trigger signal from a coil trigger would
work.
> However this should produce 1/2 the actual signal, when set for a 4
> cylinder. So I theorized that a 2 stroke tach may produce an accurate
signal
> so I grabbed a Bombardier tach and wired it into a coil trigger, but I
found
> that this didn't work at all. I'm not certain why, as the coil trigger
> should give at least some signal. My new ski-doo has a digital engine
> management computer, which provides the tach signal, so I'm thinking that
it
> may be a high resolution signal. No dice. It shows zero while connected
to
> the tach output or the coil trigger.
> I looked at a diesel tach. It runs off a sensor that is mounted
on
> the alternator. The back of the gauge has an adjustment pot, to calibrate
> tach to a known RPM. Just need to get an optical tach for the prop speed
> then do the math. The problem with this is that the tach face is only up
to
> 6000 rpm. As my upper limit should be approx. 6200 rpm, this would barely
> work, but I'd like to find something better.
> The Tiny Tach as well as the Micro 1000 was suggested and another
> builder who is at the same stage has ordered one to test, but I borrowed
an
> inductive test tach (SunTune - an analog dial with settings for 2 or 4
> stroke) and clipped it on the plug wires... and still zero. I tried all
> settings on all 4 wires under various engine speeds, but still nothing.
I'm
> pretty darn sure that I've got good spark, 'cause the engine sure is
smooth
> and powerful :-). My timing light has the same type of inductive clip for
> the spark plug wires and it works fine. The clip is directional (little
> arrow points to the plug) and I ensured it was on correctly, but just to
> check I even reversed it, but no luck. I checked the operation of the
test
> tach on my Jeep and it works fine. So this leads me to question whether
the
> Tiny Tach will work either.
> In the meantime... This morning I got to thinking that all I
really
> need to do is divide the 12pulse/rev high resolution signal from the EC2
by
> 3, then a tach set for an 8 cylinder, 4 stroke should read correctly. So
> after a little research, I ordered a NTE4526B programmable divide-by-"N"
> 4-bit binary counter. So long as I don't need to do any signal
conditioning,
> I should be able to solder this to a small piece of breadboard, with
jumpers
> on the appropriate pins and leads, and it should work great. Maybe.
>
> Do you have any suggestions as to why the coil trigger signal
fails
> to work as well as the inductive pickup? What about the divide-by-"N"
> counter for the high resolution signal?
> Any input would be greatly appreciated.
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
> Turbo 13B
> RX-9endurance
> C-FSTB
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
> -Albert Einstein
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tach Signals?
>
>
> I'm reposting this as it came through a little strange last time?
>
>
> Hi Bob;
>
> This current discussion of the Tiny Tach is somewhat timely for me
>
> as I'm dealing with my own tach issues.
>
>
> I have a 13B Mazda rotary in my RV-9 with an EC2 engine controller from
Real
>
> World Solutions. I'm ready for final inspection as soon as I take care of
>
> this.
>
> I've tried a couple of approaches. I bought a Hastings tach, which
>
> I've currently connected to the EC2 tach output. Now this is a 12
pulse/rev
>
> signal for a high resolution tach, like the EIS. So with the tach set for
an
>
> 8 cylinder 4 stroke, it should read 3X higher than actual. My test runs
show
>
> this to be right (I think),
>
> RWS suggested that a trigger signal from a coil trigger would work.
>
> However this should produce 1/2 the actual signal, when set for a 4
>
> cylinder. So I theorized that a 2 stroke tach may produce an accurate
signal
>
> so I grabbed a Bombardier tach and wired it into a coil trigger, but I
found
>
> that this didn't work at all. I'm not certain why, as the coil trigger
>
> should give at least some signal. My new ski-doo has a digital engine
>
> management computer, which provides the tach signal, so I'm thinking that
it
>
> may be a high resolution signal. No dice. It shows zero while connected
to
>
> the tach output or the coil trigger.
>
> I looked at a diesel tach. It runs off a sensor that is mounted on
>
> the alternator. The back of the gauge has an adjustment pot, to calibrate
>
> tach to a known RPM. Just need to get an optical tach for the prop speed
>
> then do the math. The problem with this is that the tach face is only up
to
>
> 6000 rpm. As my upper limit should be approx. 6200 rpm, this would barely
>
> work, but I'd like to find something better.
>
> The Tiny Tach as well as the Micro 1000 was suggested and another
>
> builder who is at the same stage has ordered one to test, but I borrowed
an
>
> inductive test tach (SunTune - an analog dial with settings for 2 or 4
>
> stroke) and clipped it on the plug wires... and still zero. I tried all
>
> settings on all 4 wires under various engine speeds, but still nothing.
I'm
>
> pretty darn sure that I've got good spark, 'cause the engine sure is
smooth
>
> and powerful :-). My timing light has the same type of inductive clip for
>
> the spark plug wires and it works fine. The clip is directional (little
>
> arrow points to the plug) and I ensured it was on correctly, but just to
>
> check I even reversed it, but no luck. I checked the operation of the
test
>
> tach on my Jeep and it works fine. So this leads me to question whether
the
>
> Tiny Tach will work either.
>
> In the meantime... This morning I got to thinking that all I really
>
> need to do is divide the 12pulse/rev high resolution signal from the EC2
by
>
> 3, then a tach set for an 8 cylinder, 4 stroke should read correctly. So
>
> after a little research, I ordered a NTE4526B programmable divide-by-N
>
> 4-bit binary counter. So long as I don't need to do any signal
conditioning,
>
> I should be able to solder this to a small piece of breadboard, with
jumpers
>
> on the appropriate pins and leads, and it should work great. Maybe.
>
>
> Do you have any suggestions as to why the coil trigger signal fails
>
> to work as well as the inductive pickup? What about the divide-by-N
>
> counter for the high resolution signal?
>
> Any input would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> S. Todd Bartrim
>
> Turbo 13B
>
> RX-9endurance
>
> C-FSTB
>
> http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
>
>
> Imagination is more important than knowledge
>
> -Albert Einstein
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
A couple of cautions about these tachs:
I tried the same or a very similar product several years ago & noticed 2
things. I couldn't get it to work on the shielded plug leads on an a/c
engine, and the update time (listed on the Tiny Tach website) is 2.5
seconds. The 1st is no big deal; either it works or it doesn't in your
particular application. The other is a major operational pain. Since it
updates so infrequently, I found that trying to set a desired rpm caused
quite a bit of 'PIO' with the throttle in the other application I tried,
my 1950's era Massey Ferguson gas burner tractor.
FWIW,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
Understand . . . and everything you say is true. But my question
is, how is it significant to anyone's deliberations on component
selection for building their airplane?
Bob,
I think you may have missed my point. I have no problem with Panasonic
batteries in airplanes. I only wanted to point out the reason for the price
difference.
Chris Heitman
RV-9A
http://my.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RSwanson" <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: quit posting in HTML |
That's an interesting FIRST post.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa(at)yahoo.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Battery / Single Alternator |
>
>
>I don't really see how this is ANY different than any other duel
>electronic ignition system. Without a Mag you must have two batteries
>to run the system. I just got off the phone with Jeff Rose, he doesn't
>want any of his systems installed without a second battery for safety.
>Aerosance is no different ... just more sophisticated balancing fuel and
>ignition. By the way, the system will operate down to 6 volts and their
>'backup' battery in the STC installation is a small Johnson Controls
>battery good for several hours.
It is "different" in that the system MUST have a separate
battery suited for cranking. Granted, one battery can be
small compared to the other, but if one wanted to take
advantage of the weight reduction and performance enhancement
of cranking with two SMALL batteries a al Fig Z-14, it
can't be done with Aerosance FADEC.
>I guess I don't understand the criticism of Aerosance for trying to
>bring aircraft control systems into the 21st century. But I'm sure EFIS
>was criticized again 'steam gages' when it was released into the GA jet
>population. Without backup electronics it would be dead too.
My understanding is that it won't work at battery voltages
typical of engine cranking . . . on the order of 8-9 volts
worst case. Where did you get the 6v figure?
If the system was minimally operational at 6v, then cranking
wouldn't be a problem.
Just so folks understand the criticism . . . I find it
mystifying that a company would spend what must have cost
$millions$ to design, fabricate, certify, manufacture and
market what is obviously a leading edge product and then
"stub their toe" on something so simple as keeping minimally
operational so as to get the engine started from the same
battery. Gee, cars have been doing this for decades.
Worse yet, because they have chosen to play in the
certified sandbox, likelihood that their product will
evolve for the better is dismally remote . . . which
puts still more pressure on the notion of getting it
all done and all right the first time out. There are
millions of cars ALREADY gone to the junkyards
with higher order technology than will ever exist
in perhaps ten thousand certified light aircraft
that will receive the Aerosance FADEC.
It's obviously not a big deal to their marketplace.
Folks who don't design electronics yet desire what the
Aerosance system offers are happily willing to
install the extra battery and the astounding wad of wire
it takes to make this system play.
The only folks who are complaining are guys like
me who are never going to buy one anyhow. So don't
loose any sleep over it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel layout - request for comments |
Nev,
Looks like the Jodel D150 is a side by side configuration. The comments
below assume this. I'm no expert and have not even designed yet alone built
the panel on my Velocity so the comments below are based on my few hundred
hours in various rented planes and lots of dreaming so take them for what
they're worth.
I notice you have the standard 6-pack of primary flight instruments. Are you
considering using vacuum gyro and A/H instruments? If so you may want to
consider a vacuum gauge. Have you thought about an all, or mostly, glass
panel? Perhaps the Dynon D10 could replace your 6-pack, or maybe the Blue
Mountain EFIS/Lite?. I think I would put the annunciator panel a little more
centrally to the pilots field of vision. You show a position for a future
tach but it looks like you already have a tach to the right of the VSI. Were
you thinking you might move it and put a second VOR head there in the
future?
Sorry I don't have any good answers for you, I'm still puzzling over my
options too.
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments
>
> I've a grand total of sixty hours flying time, and here am I trying to put
> together a panel that will last me for about forty years of flying! I
guess
> many people on this list have a great deal of flying experience, and
> therefore I'd be very grateful if you would have a squint at my proposed
> panel layout and make any comments.
>
> http://etravel.org/images/panel.gif (29kB)
>
> It's fairly normal, you might say -- an amalgam of the few types I've
> flown -- and I've tried to think about it from a usability point of view,
but
> any views from your own experience would be most appreciated.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Nev
>
> --
> Jodel D150 in progress
> UK
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | GPS antenna performance (test results) |
I've seen a few questions about how GPS antenna performance is affected
inside a structure, so I thought I'd do some experiments and see just how it
performs.
I took a Mastercom GPS151-3 external GPS antenna, and hooked it up to a
Garmin GPS III Pilot. The GPS has signal strength meters for each satellite
that are quite sensitive. Certainly it's easy to spot a change in signal
strength within a percent or two.
First I stood in the field, holding the GPS antenna up in the air, and noted
the signal strengths. It's the first time I've ever used an external
antenna, and I was stunned at the reception!! Eight or so satellites at
strengths up to 100%!! A far cry from using the thing inside a metal
plane...
Anyway, then I got a small plywood box. It's made from 5mm gaboon (mahogany)
ply with sitka spruce corners. I fitted the aerial inside the box and held
up in the air again. No discernible change in reception. This pleased me no
end, because it means I can feel quite happy about putting the antenna inside
the Jodel.
For the fibreglass test, I took the bottom cowling and held the aerial up
inside that while holding it all up in the air. Whilst the cowling wasn't
completely enclosing, it was domed such that only signals coming up from the
ground could reach the antenna. The horizon and sky were not visible to the
antenna, except through the cowling fibreglass. Again, there was no
discernible change in reception on the GPS.
Finally, I made a small aluminium box, from 2mm commercial grade aluminium,
put the aerial inside and held that up in the air. No reception whatsoever!!
Although, I suppose, it's obvious really, I had rather thought that *some*
signal would get through, but it didn't.
Anyway, that's enough for now. I know it's not the most scientific
experiment, and that I can't quote signal strengths or anything, so take from
it what you will. Hope it helps you guys when deciding where to put your GPS
antenna.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D150 in progress
UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Glasgow" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com> |
Does anyone have any experience with Falcon AH and DG. I understand they
are made in China and are clones of the RC Allen gyros. They are guaranteed
for 1 year but not TSO'd.
Any INFO would be greatly appreciated.
Steve Glasgow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Breakers & disable switches |
Terry,
You've done it now! If Bob sees a note saying that another manufacturer
wants to switch off equipment during cranking, there will be trouble
The same thing happened with the EI engine monitor. There was a dialogue
between Bob and EI, in which he asked them for justification for their
similar request. They couldn't say why except that they thought it might be
damaging. Bob asked them for some evidence, but to no avail.
Anyway, like you, I decided to go for a single switch, rather than have an
avionics bus, a regular ATC fuse, and have run it off the main bus. Your
arrangement might be different if it's going to be your primary flight
instrumentation.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Breakers & disable switches
>
> I have just about figured out the wiring diagram for my RV-8A, and I had a
> couple of questions. I will be using a version of Bob's Z-11 generic light
> aircraft electrical system with fuse blocks and an E-bus.
>
> First question: Blue Mountain Avionics wants me to turn off their EFIS/1
> system to start, or have it on a separate electrical system. If I put an
> on-off switch for the EFIS system, might that just as well be a breaker
> switch, and if so, should it come off the E-bus, or just off the battery
> with a fusible link?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel layout - request for comments |
Tony,
Thanks for your note.
You're right about the two-seat side-by-side config. I should have said that
in my note!!
Currently, I am going for vacuum instruments. If I go with the EI UBG-16, it
will monitor vacuum depth. Funny you should ask about the Dynon system --
Gerry Holland (also on this list) mentioned that he's really pleased with
his, and it seems quite economical too. This might seem like a bizarre
objection, but I can't seem to come up with a nice-looking panel replacing
"normal" instruments with the Dynon, even though it's really tempting to go
for it.
> I think I would put the annunciator panel a little more centrally to the
pilots field of vision.
This is a good point. Originally I had it planned for a long row of eight
lights along the top of the panel. I might still go for that, but cutting
such a bit slot might weaken the panel somewhat, as it's quite thin matl with
a folded stiffener along the top.
> You show a position for a future tach but it looks like you already have a
tach to
> the right of the VSI. Were you thinking you might move it and put a second
> VOR head there in the future?
Spot on! Exactly my thoughts. I've seen the NARCO integrated VOR radio and
indicator, which seems like a good idea for those of us with limited panel
space. I figured I could move the tacho in the future if I need to.
Cheers.
Nev
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments
>
> Nev,
>
> Looks like the Jodel D150 is a side by side configuration. The comments
> below assume this. I'm no expert and have not even designed yet alone built
> the panel on my Velocity so the comments below are based on my few hundred
> hours in various rented planes and lots of dreaming so take them for what
> they're worth.
>
> I notice you have the standard 6-pack of primary flight instruments. Are
you
> considering using vacuum gyro and A/H instruments? If so you may want to
> consider a vacuum gauge. Have you thought about an all, or mostly, glass
> panel? Perhaps the Dynon D10 could replace your 6-pack, or maybe the Blue
> Mountain EFIS/Lite?. I think I would put the annunciator panel a little
more
> centrally to the pilots field of vision. You show a position for a future
> tach but it looks like you already have a tach to the right of the VSI.
Were
> you thinking you might move it and put a second VOR head there in the
> future?
>
> Sorry I don't have any good answers for you, I'm still puzzling over my
> options too.
>
> Tony
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout - request for comments
>
>
>
> >
> > I've a grand total of sixty hours flying time, and here am I trying to
put
> > together a panel that will last me for about forty years of flying! I
> guess
> > many people on this list have a great deal of flying experience, and
> > therefore I'd be very grateful if you would have a squint at my proposed
> > panel layout and make any comments.
> >
> > http://etravel.org/images/panel.gif (29kB)
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Panel layout - request for comments |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
Nev Hi!
>Funny you should ask about the Dynon system --
> Gerry Holland (also on this list) mentioned that he's really pleased with
> his, and it seems quite economical too. This might seem like a bizarre
> objection, but I can't seem to come up with a nice-looking panel replacing
> "normal" instruments with the Dynon, even though it's really tempting to go
> for it.
Jodel pilots have to be bizarre.... It's a French Aeroplane!!!
On a more serious note. It may look better if you 'flush' mount the Dynon
albeit you'll need another 2 cm deeper into rear of panel. I think the
secret when combining EFIS with conventional is 'spacing'.
Another option is to move the conventional Instruments to P2 side for
emergency and go with EFIS as VFR primary display.
Note: In UK we are only allowed to operate daylight VFR.
The Dynon is excellent value for money.
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GPS antenna performance (test results) |
>
>
>I've seen a few questions about how GPS antenna performance is affected
>inside a structure, so I thought I'd do some experiments and see just how it
>performs.
>
>I took a Mastercom GPS151-3 external GPS antenna, and hooked it up to a
>Garmin GPS III Pilot. The GPS has signal strength meters for each satellite
>that are quite sensitive. Certainly it's easy to spot a change in signal
>strength within a percent or two.
>
>First I stood in the field, holding the GPS antenna up in the air, and noted
>the signal strengths. It's the first time I've ever used an external
>antenna, and I was stunned at the reception!! Eight or so satellites at
>strengths up to 100%!! A far cry from using the thing inside a metal
>plane...
>
>Anyway, then I got a small plywood box. It's made from 5mm gaboon (mahogany)
>ply with sitka spruce corners. I fitted the aerial inside the box and held
>up in the air again. No discernible change in reception. This pleased me no
>end, because it means I can feel quite happy about putting the antenna inside
>the Jodel.
>
>For the fibreglass test, I took the bottom cowling and held the aerial up
>inside that while holding it all up in the air. Whilst the cowling wasn't
>completely enclosing, it was domed such that only signals coming up from the
>ground could reach the antenna. The horizon and sky were not visible to the
>antenna, except through the cowling fibreglass. Again, there was no
>discernible change in reception on the GPS.
>
>Finally, I made a small aluminium box, from 2mm commercial grade aluminium,
>put the aerial inside and held that up in the air. No reception whatsoever!!
>Although, I suppose, it's obvious really, I had rather thought that *some*
>signal would get through, but it didn't.
>
>Anyway, that's enough for now. I know it's not the most scientific
>experiment, and that I can't quote signal strengths or anything, so take from
>it what you will. Hope it helps you guys when deciding where to put your GPS
>antenna.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Nev
Good for you sir! There is no act that generates more valuable
information than the repeatable experiment. Thank you for taking
the time to deduce the question, design the experiment, conduct
the experiment and post the results. Anyone should be able
to repeat your actions and either confirm or contest the results.
Dialog between multiple experimenters is how sound principals are
sifted out of informational noise and chaos in which we are immersed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
Poor quality, poor service, not worth the money. Buy American!
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Glasgow
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Gyros
Does anyone have any experience with Falcon AH and DG. I understand
they
are made in China and are clones of the RC Allen gyros. They are
guaranteed
for 1 year but not TSO'd.
Any INFO would be greatly appreciated.
Steve Glasgow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
>
> Understand . . . and everything you say is true. But my question
> is, how is it significant to anyone's deliberations on component
> selection for building their airplane?
>
>Bob,
>
>I think you may have missed my point. I have no problem with Panasonic
>batteries in airplanes. I only wanted to point out the reason for the price
>difference.
Okay, I missed that and it showed in my posting. I'm
pleased to hear that and apologize for any discomfort
I may have caused you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
| Subject: | GPS antenna performance (test results) |
Performed a smaller but similar test before putting our GPS antenna under
the cowl.
99's on signal strength BEFORE putting cowl over antenna.
99's on signal strength AFTER putting cowl over antenna.
Don't remember if there was a change in DOP (dilution of precision )
Figured it might work.
It does.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:54 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS antenna performance (test results)
>
>
> III"
>
> >
> >
> >I've seen a few questions about how GPS antenna performance is affected
> >inside a structure, so I thought I'd do some experiments and see
> just how it
> >performs.
> >
> >I took a Mastercom GPS151-3 external GPS antenna, and hooked it up to a
> >Garmin GPS III Pilot. The GPS has signal strength meters for
> each satellite
> >that are quite sensitive. Certainly it's easy to spot a change in signal
> >strength within a percent or two.
> >
> >First I stood in the field, holding the GPS antenna up in the
> air, and noted
> >the signal strengths. It's the first time I've ever used an external
> >antenna, and I was stunned at the reception!! Eight or so satellites at
> >strengths up to 100%!! A far cry from using the thing inside a metal
> >plane...
> >
> >Anyway, then I got a small plywood box. It's made from 5mm
> gaboon (mahogany)
> >ply with sitka spruce corners. I fitted the aerial inside the
> box and held
> >up in the air again. No discernible change in reception. This
> pleased me no
> >end, because it means I can feel quite happy about putting the
> antenna inside
> >the Jodel.
> >
> >For the fibreglass test, I took the bottom cowling and held the aerial up
> >inside that while holding it all up in the air. Whilst the
> cowling wasn't
> >completely enclosing, it was domed such that only signals coming
> up from the
> >ground could reach the antenna. The horizon and sky were not
> visible to the
> >antenna, except through the cowling fibreglass. Again, there was no
> >discernible change in reception on the GPS.
> >
> >Finally, I made a small aluminium box, from 2mm commercial grade
> aluminium,
> >put the aerial inside and held that up in the air. No reception
> whatsoever!!
> >Although, I suppose, it's obvious really, I had rather thought
> that *some*
> >signal would get through, but it didn't.
> >
> >Anyway, that's enough for now. I know it's not the most scientific
> >experiment, and that I can't quote signal strengths or anything,
> so take from
> >it what you will. Hope it helps you guys when deciding where to
> put your GPS
> >antenna.
> >
> >Cheers.
> >
> >Nev
>
> Good for you sir! There is no act that generates more valuable
> information than the repeatable experiment. Thank you for taking
> the time to deduce the question, design the experiment, conduct
> the experiment and post the results. Anyone should be able
> to repeat your actions and either confirm or contest the results.
> Dialog between multiple experimenters is how sound principals are
> sifted out of informational noise and chaos in which we are immersed.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | LED landing lights |
"So for Christmas 2010 or before, your LED landing light will be ready to
attach to your airplane." I said.
Foolish me. The future is coming even faster than I believed possible.
15000 millicandela white LEDs with a 15 degree beam are available for (much)
less than $0.20 each! So that's 1000 pcs for way under $200. To avoid all
the beam-candlepower nonsense, we observe that the luminous efficiency is
equivalent to standard halogens (about 35 lumens/watt) so for this
comparison watts are watts.
Calculate 1000 leds X .030 A X 3 V = 90 Watts. "Ay, carumba!"
Now you might think that an LED landing light just plugs into the old
socket. And it could do that. But imagine that you just distribute the 1000
leds all over the leading edges of your airship. Now wouldn't that be a
sight on short final! Also 1000 leds could be put onto a circuit board of 49
sq inches (7" X 7").
You could even just use the 1000 leds for landing and 400 leds for taxi. The
possibilities are endless.
Fly safely, buy my Wig-Wag (D) 'Witch
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | GPS antenna performance (test results) |
>
>
>Performed a smaller but similar test before putting our GPS antenna under
>the cowl.
>
>99's on signal strength BEFORE putting cowl over antenna.
>99's on signal strength AFTER putting cowl over antenna.
>
>Don't remember if there was a change in DOP (dilution of precision think>)
>
>Figured it might work.
>
>It does.
>
>James
Thank you for that data point James.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | Over Voltage protection, figure 6.2 |
Bob (Nuckolls),
I am using a Z-14 and a permanent magnet dynamo with external regulator. I
am building an over voltage disconnect to disconnect B+ of the dynamo from
the battery bus using your figure 6.2 as a pattern. The over voltage
circuit also illuminates a dynamo disconnected LED or an under voltage
warning LED on the instrument panel.
In figure 6.2 you have a resistor and capacitor in series across the
contacts of the disconnect relay. There is nothing on the diagram to
indicate what their values should be. I have searched The AeroElectric
Connection and Aeroelectric.com and have not found anything covering this
detail. Do you have any recommendations for the values of C3 and R1 in the
below referenced circuit?
Schematic of over voltage circuit:
http://flyboybob.com/images/kr2/n52bl/electric%20and%20instrument/ov001-rev1
-1.jpg
The power distribution diagram shows how the over voltage disconnect fits
into the wiring scheme. I am using electronic ignition powered from the
essential bus. I have decided to connect the battery busses directly to the
essential bus and then power the main bus from the essential bus. This
allows me to shed the main bus load by opening one circuit breaker as a
first step in an electrical power emergency.
Power distribution diagram:
http://flyboybob.com/kr2/wd0002.htm
Regards,
Bob Lee
______________________________
3380 Ashton Drive
Suwanee, GA 30024
Cell: (404) 538-1427
Phone: (770) 844-7511
Fax: (770) 844-7501
mailto:bob(at)flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au> |
| Subject: | Sigtronics SPA-400 interface with microair radio |
Hi Bob,
Do you have any pointers on this intercom with this radio? Do you have a
cool schematic?
I already have the radio and am thinking of the sigtronics, as I can get
one cheap from an aircraft dismantlers (USD $100) or so.
Should I do it? And can I input things like a cd player into this
intercom?
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au> |
| Subject: | Miniflow L Shadin |
Is anyone using this with a gravity fed carbureted setup?
Thanks
Ian
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Sigtronics SPA-400 interface with microair radio |
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Ian Scott"
:
Envoy : dimanche 27 juillet 2003 08:22
Objet : AeroElectric-List: Sigtronics SPA-400 interface with microair radio
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Do you have any pointers on this intercom with this radio? Do you have a
> cool schematic?
>
>
> I already have the radio and am thinking of the sigtronics, as I can get
> one cheap from an aircraft dismantlers (USD $100) or so.
>
> Should I do it? And can I input things like a cd player into this
> intercom?
>
> thanks
>
Ian,
You can download the SPA 400 installation and user manuals from Sigtronics
website.
I just installed an SCI S6. Piece of cake with the manual.
Hope this helps,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronnie Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Dynon Connector Problem |
We did find the connector problem. My friend couldn't find solder cup 25
pin connector when he went to the shack so he bought the crimp pin type.
Sure enough, when he pulled the connector out to check the pins, one of the
wires pulled out. He then found a solder cup style connector at another
shack and installed it.
When he powered it up, the Dynon operated correctly and we connected my
laptop to update the software. His Dynon doesn't have have the magnetic
heading sensor since he already had a regular compass installed. Apparently
Dynon hasn't shipped many units without the compass sensor, so his unit was
showing a hard left turn which leads the attitude indicator to roll over.
The software patch update we were trying to load is supposed to fix this
problem. But alas there was a bug in the patch software and it wouldn't
load after we installed the latest software version. And since Dynon and he
are both getting ready to go to Oshkosh (me too), we decided to leave it
alone until after Oshkosh.
More info later.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: MicroAir - Ignition noise update |
Bill Yamakoski and I have been working on transmission noise a while. I
have the Microair 760 installed in a Kolb Mark III with a Rotax 912. It
has the standard stator (not the external alternator) and the stock
ignition. The intercom is a portable Sigtronics two-person that has been
factory reset to the high-noise version. I had exactly the same noise
problem before I hooked up the intercom, so I don't think it is the cause.
The intercomm mic hi wire is connected to both mic hi pins on the 760, the
mic lo to the 760 mic lo, the headphone hi to the 760 headphone hi, and the
headphone wire left disconnected since the headphone and mic grounds are
connected within the intercom. A twisted wire pair runs from the PTT pin on
the 760 through to a switch on the control stick, and back to the panel
ground where the 760 is grounded.
I experience the noise with the engine running when there is no other
electrical gear running, only a Grand Rapids Engine Information System.
The symptoms are similar to Bill's, the noise is a crackly hiss and the
volume is directly related to engine rpm. I hear it only when I press the
PTT switch. At cruise and climb power the noise makes my transmission
difficult to read by other airplanes or ground receivers. At low power or
idle, there is little noise. I hear the noise in my headphones, and it
varies the same way with engine rpm. Interestingly, the noise is not
reduced when the volume control on the 760 is turned down - I get the same
noise when the volume is turned all the way down. The noise is reduced
when I turn down the volume control on the headphone. I'm flying with the
760 volume turned all the way up and the headphones down as low as I can.
I'm using shielded wire to the ignition switch and they are routed apart
from other wires.
I've tried two antennas, a dipole made from co-axial cable, and
conventional antenna with a ground plane. There is no difference in the
noise with either antenna. Reception is clear. Since the Kolb is a pusher
arrangement and the cockpit is open to the engine noise, I have put mic
muffs on the headsets and had the intercomm altered to the high-noise
version - the intercom works well. There is a higher level of ambient
noise in the Kolb and when the squelch is broken on the intercomm there is
some background engine and wind noise, but it is nothing like the rasp I
hear when I push the PTT.
I can remove the alternator output from the system and that doesn't affect
the noise. I have tried isolating the 760 from the
aircraft power altogether and using a portable battery, and the result has
been the same - no reduction in the noise. (I ran the PTT ground to the
auxiliary battery too, so it was isolated completely)
When I unplug the headset mic from the intercom and push the PTT the noise
is greatly reduced - the white noise rasp is gone and only a lower pitched
rumble is heard in the headphones. Don't know what others may hear.
With the rig isolated, it seems the mic input section is picking up RF
noise. The ignition switch leads are shielded. I just read that the
electronic tachometer lead should be shielded too. Could that be the source
of the noise?
Thanks,
Duncan McBride
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Hi Bob -
Been looking at some panel lighting pages from several of your wirebooks
and would like to try rolling my own dimmer for a confidence-builder. A few
questions about the diagram (SWB0298):
What is the wattage of the 2500 (pot), 390 and 910 ohm resistors?
Is there wattage rating for the two .68 microfarad caps?
Will the LM338K need a heat sink?
Would this be suitable for LED's?
Thanks,
John Schroeder
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: MicroAir - Ignition noise update |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: MicroAir - Ignition noise update
>
> Bill Yamakoski and I have been working on transmission noise a while. I
> have the Microair 760 installed in a Kolb Mark III with a Rotax 912. It
> has the standard stator (not the external alternator) and the stock
> ignition. The intercom is a portable Sigtronics two-person that has been
> factory reset to the high-noise version. I had exactly the same noise
> SNIP
> With the rig isolated, it seems the mic input section is picking up RF
> noise. The ignition switch leads are shielded. I just read that the
> electronic tachometer lead should be shielded too. Could that be the
source
> of the noise?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Duncan McBride
Ducan, I had a noise problem for 4 years that frequently precluded anyone
from understanding my transmissions. Your symptomps do not sound exactly
like mine, but the results appear to be the same. I took my radio in three
times and nothing was ever found wrong. I swapped antennas, etc., etc. I
thought it might be cockpit noise level, so I insulated the cabin with foam
and uphoestry and that seem to help but did not elminate the problem.
Finally I ran across an article on Oregon Aero's web site about cockpit
noise. I fabricated a MicMuff (not just the foam cover most have) similar
to their product and for the first time in four year I can not be confident
that folks will understand my transmissions. It appears that if the noise
cancellation Electrec mic is placed in a very high noise enviornment that it
not only does not cancel the ambient cockpit noise, it actually adds to it.
I made a "MicMuff" out of some blue jean patching material (had sticky on
one side), burned a 1/8" dia hole in it over the mic opening and slipped the
foam and this fabrication over the mike. Finally, I can now be understood
for approx $0.75 of material. While this may not be your problem for approx
$ 0.75 you could elminate it as a possibility.
Ed Anderson
Matthews, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: MicroAir - Ignition noise update |
Hi, Ed, thanks for pitching in. Actually, I have the Oregon Aero mic muffs
on both headsets I've tried with my setup - an older David Clark H10-80 with
the Headsets, Inc. ANR upgrade, and a pair of Lightspeed XC's. The muffs
improved the intercom performance greatly, and allowed me to open the
squelch a lot more on the intercom. I recommend them highly, too. But I'm
still picking up the raspy noise when I hit the PTT, even when I put my
thumb and forefinger around the microphone and seal it off completely.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: MicroAir - Ignition noise update
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: MicroAir - Ignition noise update
>
>
>
> >
> > Bill Yamakoski and I have been working on transmission noise a while.
I
> > have the Microair 760 installed in a Kolb Mark III with a Rotax 912.
It
> > has the standard stator (not the external alternator) and the stock
> > ignition. The intercom is a portable Sigtronics two-person that has
been
> > factory reset to the high-noise version. I had exactly the same noise
> > SNIP
> > With the rig isolated, it seems the mic input section is picking up RF
> > noise. The ignition switch leads are shielded. I just read that the
> > electronic tachometer lead should be shielded too. Could that be the
> source
> > of the noise?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Duncan McBride
>
> Ducan, I had a noise problem for 4 years that frequently precluded anyone
> from understanding my transmissions. Your symptomps do not sound exactly
> like mine, but the results appear to be the same. I took my radio in
three
> times and nothing was ever found wrong. I swapped antennas, etc., etc. I
> thought it might be cockpit noise level, so I insulated the cabin with
foam
> and uphoestry and that seem to help but did not elminate the problem.
>
> Finally I ran across an article on Oregon Aero's web site about cockpit
> noise. I fabricated a MicMuff (not just the foam cover most have) similar
> to their product and for the first time in four year I can not be
confident
> that folks will understand my transmissions. It appears that if the noise
> cancellation Electrec mic is placed in a very high noise enviornment that
it
> not only does not cancel the ambient cockpit noise, it actually adds to
it.
>
> I made a "MicMuff" out of some blue jean patching material (had sticky on
> one side), burned a 1/8" dia hole in it over the mic opening and slipped
the
> foam and this fabrication over the mike. Finally, I can now be understood
> for approx $0.75 of material. While this may not be your problem for
approx
> $ 0.75 you could elminate it as a possibility.
>
> Ed Anderson
> Matthews, NC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frederic Livesey <fred.livesey(at)zetnet.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 07/25/03 |
Hi, JB Weld is available from Halfords in the UK
Regards
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Light Dimmer |
>
>
>Hi Bob -
>
>Been looking at some panel lighting pages from several of your wirebooks
>and would like to try rolling my own dimmer for a confidence-builder. A few
>questions about the diagram (SWB0298):
>
>What is the wattage of the 2500 (pot), 390 and 910 ohm resistors?
>
>Is there wattage rating for the two .68 microfarad caps?
>
>Will the LM338K need a heat sink?
The LM338K is used on BOSS HOG dimmer (5A).
Take a look at this data package for
more details on building a smaller device
with all the details on purchasing parts and
assembling.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/DimFab.pdf
>Would this be suitable for LED's?
Maybe . . . depending on how many LEDs are in series, there
is a network of resistor that can be incorporated to make
the LED behave something like the incandescent lamp
with respect to applied voltage.
>Thanks,
>
>John Schroeder
>
>--
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald Cox" <racox(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement? |
If one were to do so, not that I ever would, but if...
What would the appropriate value be for a generic replacement variable resistor
for use in an older Cessna panel light dimmer be? I'd love to use one of Bob's
dimmer setups, but it is a certified spam-can.
I recently replaced it with what was supposed to be a cross-referenced part, but
it wasn't the right value, lights only came on near full on position, and now
it's already burned out. This is an older ship ('63) with the only lights in
the overhead, so not much power. Radios, etc., each have their own dimming
circuits built-in
The value would allow me to check a supposed replacement part for the correct resistance
range. Yeah, that's it.
What resistance range do (would) I need, and linear or audio taper?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil |
| Subject: | The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory |
I am the kind of guy that needs to really understand an object to be much good
at dealing with it. Therefore, I find it necessary to study fundamentals in order
to mess with electronics. So far, I've had a very shallow survey in A&P
school and am doing some in-depth study on my own prior to messing around with
electrons. In both places, we learned how electron theory "worked", with negative
flowing to positive. And also, in both places, the study material has made
the blithe statement, "But schematics work using conventional electron theory,
so they read exactly the opposite" and "it doesn't matter which way you read
schematics, as long as you are consistent."
To my, sometimes too literal mind, this is difficult to do. I just get used to
electrons entering the diode on the narrow part and exiting the wide part of
the schematic representation, and then the schematic expects me to work it exactly
the opposite. I've taught and trained people for a few years, now, and this
doesn't seem like a coherent and rational method of instruction.
So, do I just have to accept the fact that electron theory works one way, and schematics
are drawn to be read the other? Unfortunately, my mind is not set up
to accept that. Is there a "third way?"
Drew
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rondefly" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com> |
I am not having to much luck finding the AMP faston tabs to bolt or solder
to a brass plate for the grounding block. I have printed out the part #
41480 from the AMP site and have a picture of it but cant find it in mouser
online or catalog. can anyone help
Ron Triano
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ronald
Cox
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement?
If one were to do so, not that I ever would, but if...
What would the appropriate value be for a generic replacement variable
resistor for use in an older Cessna panel light dimmer be? I'd love to use
one of Bob's dimmer setups, but it is a certified spam-can.
I recently replaced it with what was supposed to be a cross-referenced part,
but it wasn't the right value, lights only came on near full on position,
and now it's already burned out. This is an older ship ('63) with the only
lights in the overhead, so not much power. Radios, etc., each have their
own dimming circuits built-in
The value would allow me to check a supposed replacement part for the
correct resistance range. Yeah, that's it.
What resistance range do (would) I need, and linear or audio taper?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory |
Think about the flow of positive charges - holes - spots where the electrons
aren't, instead of about electrons. You can't see either holes or
electrons, so no need to be hung up on electrons. If you think about
positive charges flowing, it all fits together.
Jim Oberst
----- Original Message -----
From: <drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory
>
> I am the kind of guy that needs to really understand an object to be much
good at dealing with it. Therefore, I find it necessary to study
fundamentals in order to mess with electronics. So far, I've had a very
shallow survey in A&P school and am doing some in-depth study on my own
prior to messing around with electrons. In both places, we learned how
electron theory "worked", with negative flowing to positive. And also, in
both places, the study material has made the blithe statement, "But
schematics work using conventional electron theory, so they read exactly the
opposite" and "it doesn't matter which way you read schematics, as long as
you are consistent."
>
> To my, sometimes too literal mind, this is difficult to do. I just get
used to electrons entering the diode on the narrow part and exiting the wide
part of the schematic representation, and then the schematic expects me to
work it exactly the opposite. I've taught and trained people for a few
years, now, and this doesn't seem like a coherent and rational method of
instruction.
>
> So, do I just have to accept the fact that electron theory works one way,
and schematics are drawn to be read the other? Unfortunately, my mind is
not set up to accept that. Is there a "third way?"
>
> Drew
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil |
| Subject: | Re: The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory |
Yeah, I know that in my head, but to get this straight is tough.
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Date: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:03 am
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory
> internet.com>
> Think about the flow of positive charges - holes - spots where the
> electronsaren't, instead of about electrons. You can't see either
> holes or
> electrons, so no need to be hung up on electrons. If you think about
> positive charges flowing, it all fits together.
>
> Jim Oberst
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: The duplicity of schematics v.
> electron theory
>
>
> >
> > I am the kind of guy that needs to really understand an object
> to be much
> good at dealing with it. Therefore, I find it necessary to study
> fundamentals in order to mess with electronics. So far, I've had
> a very
> shallow survey in A&P school and am doing some in-depth study on
> my own
> prior to messing around with electrons. In both places, we
> learned how
> electron theory "worked", with negative flowing to positive. And
> also, in
> both places, the study material has made the blithe statement, "But
> schematics work using conventional electron theory, so they read
> exactly the
> opposite" and "it doesn't matter which way you read schematics, as
> long as
> you are consistent."
> >
> > To my, sometimes too literal mind, this is difficult to do. I
> just get
> used to electrons entering the diode on the narrow part and
> exiting the wide
> part of the schematic representation, and then the schematic
> expects me to
> work it exactly the opposite. I've taught and trained people for
> a few
> years, now, and this doesn't seem like a coherent and rational
> method of
> instruction.
> >
> > So, do I just have to accept the fact that electron theory works
> one way,
> and schematics are drawn to be read the other? Unfortunately, my
> mind is
> not set up to accept that. Is there a "third way?"
> >
> > Drew
> >
> >
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Amp Faston tabs |
Ron,
Are you aware that B&C sell exactly the ground plate you're describing? It
certainly saves a lot of soldering. I just bought one with 48 tabs, but I
fancy they also sell a 24-way version. It came with brass bolt, etc. to go
through the firewall.
Cheers.
Nev
----- Original Message -----
From: "rondefly" <rondefly(at)rtriano.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Amp Faston tabs
>
> I am not having to much luck finding the AMP faston tabs to bolt or solder
> to a brass plate for the grounding block. I have printed out the part #
> 41480 from the AMP site and have a picture of it but cant find it in mouser
> online or catalog. can anyone help
> Ron Triano
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | schematics vs. electron flow |
Excellent article on the subject:
http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/magnet_university/magnets_conventional_vs_electron_flow.htm
Ben Franklin is given the blame for this mess. By the time electrons flowing in
a vacuum were studied it became apparent that Franklin was wrong.
Holes are not the same as positive charges.
When I become King all this will be changed with a wave of my scepter.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Over Voltage protection, figure 6.2 |
>mail.flyboybob.com"
>
>Bob (Nuckolls),
>
>I am using a Z-14 and a permanent magnet dynamo with external regulator. I
>am building an over voltage disconnect to disconnect B+ of the dynamo from
>the battery bus using your figure 6.2 as a pattern. The over voltage
>circuit also illuminates a dynamo disconnected LED or an under voltage
>warning LED on the instrument panel.
>
>In figure 6.2 you have a resistor and capacitor in series across the
>contacts of the disconnect relay. There is nothing on the diagram to
>indicate what their values should be. I have searched The AeroElectric
>Connection and Aeroelectric.com and have not found anything covering this
>detail. Do you have any recommendations for the values of C3 and R1 in the
>below referenced circuit?
Figure 6.2 is how we did it 30 years ago. Today I'd recommend
a crowbar detection and supply interruption architecture like
that illustrated in Figure Z-16. Crowbar ov protection is
illustrated in
http://216.55.140.222/articles/crowbar.pdf
companion LV warning circuitry is illustrated in
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
>Schematic of over voltage circuit:
>http://flyboybob.com/images/kr2/n52bl/electric%20and%20instrument/ov001-rev1
>-1.jpg
If you go this route, check out specifications for
the LM124 . . . I don't think its common mode range
includes the +rail . . . I think you need to stay
at least 1.5 volts below the Vcc supply. Add current
limiting resistor between output of U1-1 and gate of
SCR to make life easier for your OP amp. 470 ohms
would be about right. Tie gate of SCR to ground
with a 100 ohm resistor. This diagram was intended
to be more instructive than constructive.
If you proceed with architecture you've proposed, don't
worry about the arc suppression network R1/C3 . . . this
is most useful when switching the VERY inductive wound
field of an alternator.
I don't think I'd recommend any connector at J1 in
your schematic . . . Alternator wiring should go right
to the high current relay as illustrated in Figure Z-16 . . .
>The power distribution diagram shows how the over voltage disconnect fits
>into the wiring scheme. I am using electronic ignition powered from the
>essential bus. I have decided to connect the battery busses directly to the
>essential bus and then power the main bus from the essential bus. This
>allows me to shed the main bus load by opening one circuit breaker as a
>first step in an electrical power emergency.
>
>Power distribution diagram:
>http://flyboybob.com/kr2/wd0002.htm
>
I am mystified as to what you are trying to do with
the architecture cited above that a figure Z-14 type
architecture doesn't achieve . . and I'm unclear
as to the rational for number, size and placement
of the breakers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Amp Faston tabs and Panel Flood Dimmers |
>
>I am not having to much luck finding the AMP faston tabs to bolt or solder
>to a brass plate for the grounding block. I have printed out the part #
>41480 from the AMP site and have a picture of it but cant find it in mouser
>online or catalog. can anyone help
>Ron Triano
These ARE difficult to find, especially in long, dual-row strips.
They are not a common part for field service activities. When we
did find the parts, they were offered in reels of 5,000 or more
pairs. That's why we designed and fabricated the system of ground
bus blocks offered at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
and
http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ronald
>Cox
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cessna-type panel light dimmer replacement?
>
>
>If one were to do so, not that I ever would, but if...
>
>What would the appropriate value be for a generic replacement variable
>resistor for use in an older Cessna panel light dimmer be? I'd love to use
>one of Bob's dimmer setups, but it is a certified spam-can.
>
>I recently replaced it with what was supposed to be a cross-referenced part,
>but it wasn't the right value, lights only came on near full on position,
>and now it's already burned out. This is an older ship ('63) with the only
>lights in the overhead, so not much power. Radios, etc., each have their
>own dimming circuits built-in
>
>The value would allow me to check a supposed replacement part for the
>correct resistance range. Yeah, that's it.
>
>What resistance range do (would) I need, and linear or audio taper?
How many lights are in the overhead? Most of the airplanes
I've worked with had a single, lamp rated at 200 to 250 mA.
The rheostat for this lamp was a special, 75 ohm, 12 watt,
wirewound device with a discontinuity at the max ccw end
so that full left rotation would shut the lamp completely
OFF. These were ordered from Ohmite by the thousands but
were never a catalog item. If you are dimming a single lamp
as described above, you can get a CR-12.5-100
at http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=546.pdf
and get reasonable behavior or you can order one of
our SDK-1 dimmer kits at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
which contains the rheostat used in the Cessnas. I
found a quantity of these surplus about a year
ago and they are nearly gone.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The duplicity of schematics v. electron |
theory
>
>I am the kind of guy that needs to really understand an object to be much
>good at dealing with it. Therefore, I find it necessary to study
>fundamentals in order to mess with electronics. So far, I've had a very
>shallow survey in A&P school and am doing some in-depth study on my own
>prior to messing around with electrons. In both places, we learned how
>electron theory "worked", with negative flowing to positive. And also, in
>both places, the study material has made the blithe statement, "But
>schematics work using conventional electron theory, so they read exactly
>the opposite" and "it doesn't matter which way you read schematics, as
>long as you are consistent."
>
>To my, sometimes too literal mind, this is difficult to do. I just get
>used to electrons entering the diode on the narrow part and exiting the
>wide part of the schematic representation, and then the schematic expects
>me to work it exactly the opposite. I've taught and trained people for a
>few years, now, and this doesn't seem like a coherent and rational method
>of instruction.
>
>So, do I just have to accept the fact that electron theory works one way,
>and schematics are drawn to be read the other? Unfortunately, my mind is
>not set up to accept that. Is there a "third way?"
Nope. Just two, both positive and negative "current"
works. I prefer to work and teach in electron flow or
negative negative current 'cause the electron is an
entity with mass that moves. Since there is no mobile
entity with a positive charge and mass, positive current
is visualized as the absence of an electron where one
might normally be expected to exist.
For example, if an electron hops from the outer shell
of a copper atom to the next atom, for some very small
instance in time, a "hole" exists in that shell giving
the atom a net positive charge. An electron from another
atom jumps into that slot leaving a hole behind it as well.
It's easy to visualize electrons moving in one direction
as negative current and holes moving in the opposite
direction as positive current. These visualizations are
used all the time in the discussion of conductors and
semiconductors.
The only place that holes and electrons cannot exist
together is in vacuum tubes where the electron is king.
It is the ONLY kind of current that can move across an
open space where nothing else exists.
This won't be the only time you'll encounter overtly
opposing conventions. The laws of physics, like the rules
of language, were described by individuals widely separated
in place and time. Each contributed to our understanding
in the best way they could deduce at the time. But
as in English you have "write", "right", and "wright" all
sounding the same but having different meanings, so
too in physics will you encounter explanations with
seemingly contradictory qualities.
Some folks view these instances with frustration and often with
derision. I prefer to view these as a gage of understanding.
It's no different than studying the a topic described
by authors who wrote in English, German, and Swedish.
Your goal is to UNDERSTAND what is going on so completely
that the language describing it is not a barrier.
The rudimentary simple-ideas that makes all the stuff
around us work are consistent, predictable and understandable
irrespective of the language by which they are described.
The day that your frustration fades will be the day when
you KNOW you've achieved a grasp of what matters.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 07/26/03 |
| From: | "Weed, Michael" <MWeed(at)tollgrade.com> |
>
>
>Does anyone have any experience with Falcon AH and DG. I understand
they
>are made in China and are clones of the RC Allen gyros. They are
>guaranteed
>for 1 year but not TSO'd.
>
>Any INFO would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Steve Glasgow
Steve,
In my opinion they are garbage. I have an AI and DG that came with my
RV with 93 hrs. The AI is already bad and since I've heard that shops
won't work on them, I took it apart to see if I could fix it. The
gimbal bearings are crap. I replaced them and it might work now, we'll
see, but I wouldn't trust it as far as I can throw it. The Chinese are
very good at copying things, but they copied a poor design (Air Italia)
and "cheaped" out on the components. If you are going with vacuum, buy
a US made. I personally think that in 5 years nobody will be putting
vacuum instruments in new airframes (RC Allen & SigmaTek, are you
listening?). They'll go the way of the slide-rule, fascinating
mechanical objects for sure, but completely obsolete.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil |
| Subject: | Re: schematics vs. electron flow |
I would also ban forever the phrase: "As you can clearly see from the following
schematic..." Ten times out of ten, you CAN'T!
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Monday, July 28, 2003 4:54 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: schematics vs. electron flow
>
> Excellent article on the subject:
>
> http://www.rare-earth-
> magnets.com/magnet_university/magnets_conventional_vs_electron_flow.htm
> Ben Franklin is given the blame for this mess. By the time
> electrons flowing in a vacuum were studied it became apparent that
> Franklin was wrong.
>
> Holes are not the same as positive charges.
>
> When I become King all this will be changed with a wave of my scepter.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Sigtronics SPA-400 interface with microair radio |
>
> Do you have any pointers on this intercom with this radio? Do you have a
> cool schematic?
>
> I already have the radio and am thinking of the sigtronics, as I can get
> one cheap from an aircraft dismantlers (USD $100) or so.
>
> Should I do it? And can I input things like a cd player into this
> intercom?
My PA22/20 Pacer had a SPA-400 intercom and a RES-400 stereo
entertainment switcher installed when I bought it.
The SPA-400 works just fine as a basic 4 place intercom.
Nothing fancy!
I had to redo the installation to get rid of the alternator
whine/strobe squeal. The previous installer had violated the
"single point ground" principle, grounding the mic and
headphone jacks locally to the airframe, and not grounding
the intercom to the same point as the com radio. The original
Sigtronics installation instructions for the SPA-400 are in
error about how to tie the grounds. After rewiring it, there
is no discernable whine/squeal using hi-fi noise cancelling
aviation headsets (Lightspeed 20s).
The Pacer also has a RES-400 stereo switcher/adapter. It
converts the monaural SPA-400 to stereo, and provides muting of
the entertainment during either intercom or com radio activity,
switching both L&R headphones to mono. The RES-400 provides no
amplification of the entertainment stereo input signals; it
just switches them straight through to the LR headphones (using
a relay).
This raises a problem if you plan to take your entertainment
source from something like a Sony Discman! The Sony output level
(intended to drive 30 Ohms headsets) is insufficient to drive
the Lightspeed headsets (nominally several hundred Ohms). The
music is just not loud enough!
To solve this problem in the Pacer, I had to build a Stereo
Amplifier, and put it between the Sony and the RES-400 input.
Said amplifier has a voltage gain of about 4, which makes the
entertainment level just right...
By the time you do all of this, you might just think about
getting a "modern" stereo/entertainment intercom...
Mike Mladejovsky
Pacer '00Z
Skylane '1MM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensing low coolant level |
> I suggest that you ignore the water level issue all together. Once the
> water level is low it's too late, you've already cooked the goose! What you
> need is a water pressure gauge. Before the water level gets low, the system
> has to loose some H2O molecules. For this to happen, the pressure in the
> system must be vented somewhere. Normally the water system will operate at
> some pressure between ambient and the pressure cap release pressure. If the
> needle stays in the green between these limits, you haven't lost coolant
> yet. As soon as a leak occurs, the pressure will drop to zero or peg at the
> pressure cap release pressure and you can take action before the water
> actually gets low.
Bob, I respectfully disagree!!!
The PRESSURE in the cooling system has absolutely nothing to do
with the QUANTITY of coolant in the radiator; the pressure is
determined primarily by the TEMPERATURE, which is usually
determined by the THERMOSTAT. Under normal operating conditions,
the radiator cap never vents; the system pressure is lower than
the cap's venting pressure. The pressure would stay constant as
long as there is sufficient coolant to fill the block. The water
pump/therostat always keeps the block/heads full of coolant,
regardless of the coolant level in the radiator.
If there is a small leak, the coolant will be forced out through
the pinhole, with no detectable change in system pressure.
Unless you see water droplets on the windshield, the only
indication that this is happening would be dropping cooling
level in the radiator, so the orginal poster has the right idea!
Dropping level in the radiator is your first indication that
there is leak!!!
Mike Mladejovsky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: schematics vs. electron flow |
>
>I would also ban forever the phrase: "As you can clearly see from the
>following schematic..." Ten times out of ten, you CAN'T!
>
>Drew
This is where real teachers provide a bridge
between the textbook and the student . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmfpublic(at)comcast.net |
(Aeroelectric-List)
| Subject: | Re: LED landing lights |
Ok, Mr. Jones, stand and deliver. Where did you find this source of white LEDs
for 20 cents each? I plan to do cabin lighting with LEDs and combine this
fixture with the headphone plugs.
Jim Foerster Jabiru J400, under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cary rhodes <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AMP Faston Tabs |
I offer a contrary opinion here.
I also had trouble finding some solder-on male tabs.
I bought a copper plate and dimpled for a #6 brass
screw, soldered the head in place in the dimple, then
bolted the pair of plates to the firewll. One on the
inside and one in the engine comp.
Then you can use ring terminal and stack up several
grounds wires on each post.
cary rhodes
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED landing lights |
If you wait a little you will have a chance to get nice factory made
LED headlights. A japanese company demonstrated such headlights last
year on a wide gap semiconductor conference in Achen, Germany. I forgot
the name of the company but it was probably Nichia. They did not use
thousands of regular low power LEDs. They used a few newly developed
high power and high efficiency heatsink mounted LEDs.
Jerzy
jmfpublic(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>Ok, Mr. Jones, stand and deliver. Where did you find this source of white LEDs
>for 20 cents each? I plan to do cabin lighting with LEDs and combine this
>fixture with the headphone plugs.
>
>Jim Foerster Jabiru J400, under construction
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | Over Voltage protection, figure 6.2 |
Bob,
Thanks for the modern day recommendation to build a crowbar Over voltage
circuit. I've got all the parts except the SCR so I should be able to build
the circuit tonight. Your comments regarding my power distribution lead me
to the conclusion that I am trying to use the essential bus as a bad fit for
my application. I do not meet the low amperage requirement because of fuel
injection and electronic ignition. I'm looking at Z-12 as a simpler
solution for me powering the fuel pumps and electronic ignition from the
battery bus as you describe in that diagram. This will also be an easier
rewire job from my existing panel.
Thank you so much for your comments. You make it possible for a homebuilder
to build a quality aircraft electrical system.
Regards,
Bob Lee
______________________________
N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
91% done only 51% to go!
Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
mailto:bob(at)flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Over Voltage protection, figure 6.2
>mail.flyboybob.com"
>
>Bob (Nuckolls),
>
>I am using a Z-14 and a permanent magnet dynamo with external regulator. I
>am building an over voltage disconnect to disconnect B+ of the dynamo from
>the battery bus using your figure 6.2 as a pattern. The over voltage
>circuit also illuminates a dynamo disconnected LED or an under voltage
>warning LED on the instrument panel.
>
>In figure 6.2 you have a resistor and capacitor in series across the
>contacts of the disconnect relay. There is nothing on the diagram to
>indicate what their values should be. I have searched The AeroElectric
>Connection and Aeroelectric.com and have not found anything covering this
>detail. Do you have any recommendations for the values of C3 and R1 in the
>below referenced circuit?
Figure 6.2 is how we did it 30 years ago. Today I'd recommend
a crowbar detection and supply interruption architecture like
that illustrated in Figure Z-16. Crowbar ov protection is
illustrated in
http://216.55.140.222/articles/crowbar.pdf
companion LV warning circuitry is illustrated in
http://216.55.140.222/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
>Schematic of over voltage circuit:
>http://flyboybob.com/images/kr2/n52bl/electric%20and%20instrument/ov001-rev
1
>-1.jpg
If you go this route, check out specifications for
the LM124 . . . I don't think its common mode range
includes the +rail . . . I think you need to stay
at least 1.5 volts below the Vcc supply. Add current
limiting resistor between output of U1-1 and gate of
SCR to make life easier for your OP amp. 470 ohms
would be about right. Tie gate of SCR to ground
with a 100 ohm resistor. This diagram was intended
to be more instructive than constructive.
If you proceed with architecture you've proposed, don't
worry about the arc suppression network R1/C3 . . . this
is most useful when switching the VERY inductive wound
field of an alternator.
I don't think I'd recommend any connector at J1 in
your schematic . . . Alternator wiring should go right
to the high current relay as illustrated in Figure Z-16 . . .
>The power distribution diagram shows how the over voltage disconnect fits
>into the wiring scheme. I am using electronic ignition powered from the
>essential bus. I have decided to connect the battery busses directly to
the
>essential bus and then power the main bus from the essential bus. This
>allows me to shed the main bus load by opening one circuit breaker as a
>first step in an electrical power emergency.
>
>Power distribution diagram:
>http://flyboybob.com/kr2/wd0002.htm
>
I am mystified as to what you are trying to do with
the architecture cited above that a figure Z-14 type
architecture doesn't achieve . . and I'm unclear
as to the rational for number, size and placement
of the breakers.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
A really good deal is Besthongkong on eBay (search for items sold by him).
50pcs 8000mcd Ultra Bright White LEDs-BestHK Item number: 2548007745
Buy-it-now price $3.49. Astonishing....unbelievable (well yes, he adds a
hefty
"handling" charge)! Also check the eBay stores of Chi Wing LED product shop,
Dynamic Electronics and IT Products, and HKCityShop. There are others.
Just searching eBay for "leds" is an education.
Some details on the 15000 mcd for less than $0.20----You would have to buy
thousands, and run them 2X current. Running leds even at 3X current is
commonly done and quite reasonable. Just watch the temperatures.
Now the cynical might say....oh, so you overcurrent them--that's cheating.
But remember
there's no 13th power rule here. LEDs have no filament, evaporate nothing
and do not fail
suddenly.
By the way...as I am learning. The 100,000 hours cited for leds (to 50%
brightness) does not
extend to white leds regardless of what anybody claims. Maybe later. But for
now
expect 10,000 hours to 50%. But that probably exceeds the life of your
airframe.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"A man's got to know his limitations."
(Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry in Magnum Force, 1973)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | drew.schumann(at)us.army.mil |
| Subject: | Re: The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory |
Thanks. Your last sentence broke it for me. I have now started "ignoring" those
parts that don't seem to matter, and only refer to them if the schematic doesn't
make sense without them. This helps me break down the circuit, rather than
try to tackle the circuit as a whole.
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Date: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The duplicity of schematics v. electron theory
>
> >
> >I am the kind of guy that needs to really understand an object to
> be much
> >good at dealing with it. Therefore, I find it necessary to study
> >fundamentals in order to mess with electronics. So far, I've had
> a very
> >shallow survey in A&P school and am doing some in-depth study on
> my own
> >prior to messing around with electrons. In both places, we
> learned how
> >electron theory "worked", with negative flowing to positive. And
> also, in
> >both places, the study material has made the blithe statement,
> "But
> >schematics work using conventional electron theory, so they read
> exactly
> >the opposite" and "it doesn't matter which way you read
> schematics, as
> >long as you are consistent."
> >
> >To my, sometimes too literal mind, this is difficult to do. I
> just get
> >used to electrons entering the diode on the narrow part and
> exiting the
> >wide part of the schematic representation, and then the schematic
> expects
> >me to work it exactly the opposite. I've taught and trained
> people for a
> >few years, now, and this doesn't seem like a coherent and
> rational method
> >of instruction.
> >
> >So, do I just have to accept the fact that electron theory works
> one way,
> >and schematics are drawn to be read the other? Unfortunately, my
> mind is
> >not set up to accept that. Is there a "third way?"
>
> Nope. Just two, both positive and negative "current"
> works. I prefer to work and teach in electron flow or
> negative negative current 'cause the electron is an
> entity with mass that moves. Since there is no mobile
> entity with a positive charge and mass, positive current
> is visualized as the absence of an electron where one
> might normally be expected to exist.
>
> For example, if an electron hops from the outer shell
> of a copper atom to the next atom, for some very small
> instance in time, a "hole" exists in that shell giving
> the atom a net positive charge. An electron from another
> atom jumps into that slot leaving a hole behind it as well.
>
> It's easy to visualize electrons moving in one direction
> as negative current and holes moving in the opposite
> direction as positive current. These visualizations are
> used all the time in the discussion of conductors and
> semiconductors.
>
> The only place that holes and electrons cannot exist
> together is in vacuum tubes where the electron is king.
> It is the ONLY kind of current that can move across an
> open space where nothing else exists.
>
> This won't be the only time you'll encounter overtly
> opposing conventions. The laws of physics, like the rules
> of language, were described by individuals widely separated
> in place and time. Each contributed to our understanding
> in the best way they could deduce at the time. But
> as in English you have "write", "right", and "wright" all
> sounding the same but having different meanings, so
> too in physics will you encounter explanations with
> seemingly contradictory qualities.
>
> Some folks view these instances with frustration and often with
> derision. I prefer to view these as a gage of understanding.
> It's no different than studying the a topic described
> by authors who wrote in English, German, and Swedish.
> Your goal is to UNDERSTAND what is going on so completely
> that the language describing it is not a barrier.
>
> The rudimentary simple-ideas that makes all the stuff
> around us work are consistent, predictable and understandable
> irrespective of the language by which they are described.
> The day that your frustration fades will be the day when
> you KNOW you've achieved a grasp of what matters.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> _-
> _-
> _-
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AMP Faston Tabs |
>
>I offer a contrary opinion here.
>
>I also had trouble finding some solder-on male tabs.
>
>I bought a copper plate and dimpled for a #6 brass
>screw, soldered the head in place in the dimple, then
>bolted the pair of plates to the firewll. One on the
>inside and one in the engine comp.
>
>Then you can use ring terminal and stack up several
>grounds wires on each post.
Many kit suppliers have offered variations on this
theme for a long time . . . I'll suggest that it is
a good thing to reduce and/or eliminate threaded fasteners
as much as possible.
I looked at a captive, threaded stud design before
opting in favor of fast-ons. In fact, the debut of
the fast-on ground block prompted a market search to
add faston equipped switches to the catalog shortly
thereafter.
But irrespective of which fasteners you choose, the
magic comes from single point grounding . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
Thanks for your complete reply. The white leds I have seen appear to be IR
leds with a white phosphor for visible light. Thus life is likely to be
shorter than the "Normal" design for led's. Not that shorter is a design
concern for most of mear mortals :-)
BTW your electronic designs are innovative and interesting to me as so many
are just recycled older stuff.
From a retired aerospace and electronics engineer.
Paul
PS keep up the good work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List:
>
> A really good deal is Besthongkong on eBay (search for items sold by him).
> 50pcs 8000mcd Ultra Bright White LEDs-BestHK Item number: 2548007745
> Buy-it-now price $3.49. Astonishing....unbelievable (well yes, he adds a
> hefty
> "handling" charge)! Also check the eBay stores of Chi Wing LED product
shop,
> Dynamic Electronics and IT Products, and HKCityShop. There are others.
>
> Just searching eBay for "leds" is an education.
>
> Some details on the 15000 mcd for less than $0.20----You would have to buy
> thousands, and run them 2X current. Running leds even at 3X current is
> commonly done and quite reasonable. Just watch the temperatures.
>
> Now the cynical might say....oh, so you overcurrent them--that's cheating.
> But remember
> there's no 13th power rule here. LEDs have no filament, evaporate nothing
> and do not fail
> suddenly.
>
> By the way...as I am learning. The 100,000 hours cited for leds (to 50%
> brightness) does not
> extend to white leds regardless of what anybody claims. Maybe later. But
for
> now
> expect 10,000 hours to 50%. But that probably exceeds the life of your
> airframe.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
> "A man's got to know his limitations."
> (Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry in Magnum Force, 1973)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
They are UV LEDs not IR. For that reason (wide gap) they require more
voltage than IR LEDS. Typically its ~3.5V per diode
Jerzy
Paul Messinger wrote:
>
>Thanks for your complete reply. The white leds I have seen appear to be IR
>leds with a white phosphor for visible light. Thus life is likely to be
>shorter than the "Normal" design for led's. Not that shorter is a design
>concern for most of mear mortals :-)
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Mireley <mireley(at)msu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: LED landing lights |
Jerzy Krasinski wrote:
>
> If you wait a little you will have a chance to get nice factory made
> LED headlights. A japanese company demonstrated such headlights last
> year on a wide gap semiconductor conference in Achen, Germany. I forgot
> the name of the company but it was probably Nichia. They did not use
> thousands of regular low power LEDs. They used a few newly developed
> high power and high efficiency heatsink mounted LEDs.
> Jerzy
>
Could this be the source of the LEDs you're speaking of?
http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-flood.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Landing Lights |
A regular 55W Wagner automotive sealed beam halogen is 1000 lumens.
Cost....a few bucks.
The Luxeons are fabulous but pricey. For example a Luxeon Star is about 100
lumens and $40. (1000 lumens for $400).
The led landing light I envision would be 380 leds at 0.20 each or $76 plus
the printed circuit board ($24 maybe) and would be roughly equivalent to the
round 55W Wagner. MAYBE.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"I only regret my economies."
-Reynolds Price
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 07/28/03 |
| From: | irampil(at)notes.cc.sunysb.edu |
07/29/2003 02:34:50 PM,
Serialize complete at 07/29/2003 02:34:50 PM
Mike said:
If you are going with vacuum, buy
a US made. I personally think that in 5 years nobody will be putting
vacuum instruments in new airframes (RC Allen & SigmaTek, are you
listening?). They'll go the way of the slide-rule, fascinating
mechanical objects for sure, but completely obsolete.
Stand by for a very interesting announcement from the vacuum guys at OSH
this week.
How about a TSO'd intertial gizmo to replace the full 6 pack.
Obviously more to follow
Ira N224XS (in paint shop)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Fw: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle |
I just figured I'd forward this here to stir things up... 8-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Bristol" <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
> John,
>
> Your problem is caused by a loose connection, either a poor crimp or
> poor contact on the push-on connector. My recommendation is to get rid
> of the push-on's and replace them with screw connectors. I know, that
> means replacing switches etc. but, push-on's don't have a real good
> reputation. And, even though you used the correct crimping tool, the
> crimps could still be too loose.
> Regardless of what anyone says, I like solder - of course, I also like
> tailwheels and primer!
>
> Dave Bristol
> EAA Technical Counselor
>
>
> John Allen wrote:
>
> >I had a problem with one of the wires in my RV and I'm looking for ideas.
The wire in question is the +12v one that feeds the strobe power supply and
runs from the fuse block to the panel switch. From the switch another wire
goes directly to a screw-on terminal block below the seat and then on to the
power supply in the left wingtip. The power supply is grounded to the
airframe.
> >
> >I noticed some time ago that the power strobes would only seem to run
when the alternator was on (i.e above 12v) The other day I noticed it
wasn't running at all. I did notice that both AMP connectors on the switch
had some brown discoloration on the blue sleeve. I also noticed that there
was brown discoloration on the connector at the fuse panel. I replaced the
wire from the fuse block to the switch and the circuit began working
correctly. I then replaced the switch with one of higher quality. I also
moved the fuse and wire to another empty slot on the fuse block
> >
> >The power supply is rated at 7amps. The wire is all 16AWG. The fuse is
10A. The connectors are all AMP PIDG .25" push-on assembled with the
correct crimping tool. I did send the Power Supply to Whelen to have it
checked out
> >
> >The brown discoloration tells me there was excessive heat in the wire at
the AMP connectors, yet the components all seem to be within tolerance. The
heat buildup must have been significant enough to fail the wire over time,
which causes me a bit of concern. The fact that the browning occured on
both wires at the connector (i.e. on two separate wires) tells me the
problem was not specific to my assembly technique.
> >Since there was discoloring of the connector at the fuse block, I am lead
to believe the problem wasn't just the switch.
> >
> >One other piece of information. The failed wiring would give me an
no-load indication of 12.5 volts on the VOM. However when the wire was put
under load (i.e. attached to the strobe power supply) the voltage at the
conection of the +12v wire and the power supply was only 7 volts. Therefore
the failure of the wire was not total.
> >
> >I'm scratching my head on this one. I replaced the wire with another one
just like it, and am watching it closely.
> >
> >Any ideas?
> >
> >John Allen
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >socal-rvlist-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada.
Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/SyTolB/TM
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> socal-rvlist-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Norman and Gretchen Howell" <testwest(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle |
Hi Dave and everyone
May I suggest, Dave, you go to the Aeroelectric Connection web site
www.aeroelectric.com and read it from stem to stern.
For everyone else, I'll suggest the statements made by Dave, below,
regarding Fast-On connectors are not supported by physics, or by current
industry practice. I am sure you'll find Fast-On connectors on current
production light airplanes by Cessna, Raytheon, etc.
Soldering connectors is highly process sensitive. A PIDG crimp in a proper
tool is not.
A screwed connection is a vibration-sensitive failure point, and increases
parts count. The more parts, the less reliable the overall system.
Dave wrote "Regardless of what anyone says, I like solder...". This is,
unfortunately, an emotional argument used as a final straw against any
logical rebuttal to a stated position. Any guy on this list who is married
knows the futility of trying to counter an emotional argument with a logical
one. A fellow has a right to any opinion he wants, and that's fine. NO ONE
has the right to pass on their emotionally-derived position as a basis for
engineering advice of any sort.
John, I'd say the advice you received below is worth exactly what you paid
for it. For everyone else, we all owe it to one another to provide solid,
factual information backed up by repeatable experiments and tests, not
hearsay and old wive's tales. The aeroelectric list on the Matronics list
server provides the some of the most solid, factual information on the net
for builders of experimental aircraft.
Some portion of John's wiring has a very high resistance, perhaps an
internal switch failure or some other problem. I'd suggest to John to
measure the resistance of the removed/discolored wiring/switch between the
fuse block and the power supply, and compare that to the replaced wiring and
switch. Let us know what you find.
This is not meant to be a flame, and if anyone is offended, I'm sorry. I am
also sorry to burden everyone with this excessive SIG, below, but when I
have to write an e-mail like this, sometimes it helps.
Norman Howell
EAA Flight Advisor #1, and
Experimental Test Pilot
The Boeing Company
----Original Message-----
From: Dave Bristol [mailto:bj034(at)lafn.org]
Subject: Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
John,
Your problem is caused by a loose connection, either a poor crimp or
poor contact on the push-on connector. My recommendation is to get rid
of the push-on's and replace them with screw connectors. I know, that
means replacing switches etc. but, push-on's don't have a real good
reputation. And, even though you used the correct crimping tool, the
crimps could still be too loose.
Regardless of what anyone says, I like solder - of course, I also like
tailwheels and primer!
Dave Bristol
EAA Technical Counselor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle |
>
>I just figured I'd forward this here to stir things up... 8-)
>
>)_( Dan
Dan, if you would forward this back to John, I'd appreciate it.
I would like to have his crimp tool, exemplar samples of any un-used
PIDG terminals in question, the overheated terminals still on "failed"
wires, overheated switch and fuseblock. I'd like to get to the
bottom of his problem but it will require some detailed analysis.
I'll replace any and all components he sends me with new ones.
If the tool is bad or not appropriate to the task, I'll make
him a hell-of-a-deal on a new one.
If there was but one joint involved, a missed opportunity
for adequate assembly is suspect. A series of similar failures,
suggests a broader cause . . .
Have him contact me directly if he's interested and we'll work
out details for the exchange. I'll publish findings here and
on the website.
Bob . . .
> > >I had a problem with one of the wires in my RV and I'm looking for ideas.
>The wire in question is the +12v one that feeds the strobe power supply and
>runs from the fuse block to the panel switch. From the switch another wire
>goes directly to a screw-on terminal block below the seat and then on to the
>power supply in the left wingtip. The power supply is grounded to the
>airframe.
> > >
> > >I noticed some time ago that the power strobes would only seem to run
>when the alternator was on (i.e above 12v) The other day I noticed it
>wasn't running at all. I did notice that both AMP connectors on the switch
>had some brown discoloration on the blue sleeve. I also noticed that there
>was brown discoloration on the connector at the fuse panel. I replaced the
>wire from the fuse block to the switch and the circuit began working
>correctly. I then replaced the switch with one of higher quality. I also
>moved the fuse and wire to another empty slot on the fuse block
> > >
> > >The power supply is rated at 7amps. The wire is all 16AWG. The fuse is
>10A. The connectors are all AMP PIDG .25" push-on assembled with the
>correct crimping tool. I did send the Power Supply to Whelen to have it
>checked out
> > >
> > >The brown discoloration tells me there was excessive heat in the wire at
>the AMP connectors, yet the components all seem to be within tolerance. The
>heat buildup must have been significant enough to fail the wire over time,
>which causes me a bit of concern. The fact that the browning occured on
>both wires at the connector (i.e. on two separate wires) tells me the
>problem was not specific to my assembly technique.
> > >Since there was discoloring of the connector at the fuse block, I am lead
>to believe the problem wasn't just the switch.
> > >
> > >One other piece of information. The failed wiring would give me an
>no-load indication of 12.5 volts on the VOM. However when the wire was put
>under load (i.e. attached to the strobe power supply) the voltage at the
>conection of the +12v wire and the power supply was only 7 volts. Therefore
>the failure of the wire was not total.
> > >
> > >I'm scratching my head on this one. I replaced the wire with another one
>just like it, and am watching it closely.
> > >
> > >Any ideas?
> > >
> > >John Allen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Landing Lights |
Eric,
The only significant attraction of an "LED landing light" for me is - lower
current draw.
- Can you give an estimated current draw for the 55W sealed beam
halogen bulb and for the 380 LEDs and circuit board?
Life of a halogen vs LEDs is not a "tie breaker" - as halogen is so much
better than incandescant that I don't care for more life, given the low
price. The extra life of LEDs is beyond my lifespan so is no big selling
point.
- But, I want to go IFR at night on a 35amp alternator, with as no
"discharge" on the loadmeter/ammeter when I turn on the landing light at end
of the flight - or, if going to be drawing down the battery for 3 minutes,
then want as little "draw" on the battery as I can get.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Landing Lights
>
> A regular 55W Wagner automotive sealed beam halogen is 1000 lumens.
> Cost....a few bucks.
>
> The Luxeons are fabulous but pricey. For example a Luxeon Star is about
100
> lumens and $40. (1000 lumens for $400).
> The led landing light I envision would be 380 leds at 0.20 each or $76
plus
> the printed circuit board ($24 maybe) and would be roughly equivalent to
the
> round 55W Wagner. MAYBE.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
> "I only regret my economies."
> -Reynolds Price
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alexander Balic <alex157(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest:Led landing lights / other |
lights also
The one thing that you need to keep in mind about the LED's is that they put
out light in a very narrow cone- so for a landing light, maybe a 15 or 20
degree cone will be acceptable, but for other uses (position) it may not- I
was looking at making some LED position lights, but as I have come to find-
to get the required hemispherical coverage means about 20 or 30 for each
color on each side- still possible of course, but a lot more work......
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
AeroElectric-List Digest Server
Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 07/29/03
*
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---
Total Messages Posted Tue 07/29/03: 7
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:08 AM - Re: Re: LED landing lights (John Mireley)
2. 11:16 AM - Re: LED Landing Lights (Eric M. Jones)
3. 11:35 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 07/28/03
(irampil(at)notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
4. 04:11 PM - Fw: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle (Dan Checkoway)
5. 05:23 PM - Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle (Norman and Gretchen
Howell)
6. 06:53 PM - Re: Fw: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle (Robert L. Nuckolls,
III)
7. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: LED Landing Lights (David Carter)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
From: John Mireley <mireley(at)msu.edu>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED landing lights
Jerzy Krasinski wrote:
>
> If you wait a little you will have a chance to get nice factory made
> LED headlights. A japanese company demonstrated such headlights last
> year on a wide gap semiconductor conference in Achen, Germany. I forgot
> the name of the company but it was probably Nichia. They did not use
> thousands of regular low power LEDs. They used a few newly developed
> high power and high efficiency heatsink mounted LEDs.
> Jerzy
>
Could this be the source of the LEDs you're speaking of?
http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-flood.html
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Landing Lights
A regular 55W Wagner automotive sealed beam halogen is 1000 lumens.
Cost....a few bucks.
The Luxeons are fabulous but pricey. For example a Luxeon Star is about 100
lumens and $40. (1000 lumens for $400).
The led landing light I envision would be 380 leds at 0.20 each or $76 plus
the printed circuit board ($24 maybe) and would be roughly equivalent to the
round 55W Wagner. MAYBE.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"I only regret my economies."
-Reynolds Price
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 07/28/03
From: irampil(at)notes.cc.sunysb.edu
07/29/2003 02:34:50 PM,
Serialize complete at 07/29/2003 02:34:50 PM
Mike said:
If you are going with vacuum, buy
a US made. I personally think that in 5 years nobody will be putting
vacuum instruments in new airframes (RC Allen & SigmaTek, are you
listening?). They'll go the way of the slide-rule, fascinating
mechanical objects for sure, but completely obsolete.
Stand by for a very interesting announcement from the vacuum guys at OSH
this week.
How about a TSO'd intertial gizmo to replace the full 6 pack.
Obviously more to follow
Ira N224XS (in paint shop)
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
I just figured I'd forward this here to stir things up... 8-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Bristol" <bj034(at)lafn.org>
Subject: Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
> John,
>
> Your problem is caused by a loose connection, either a poor crimp or
> poor contact on the push-on connector. My recommendation is to get rid
> of the push-on's and replace them with screw connectors. I know, that
> means replacing switches etc. but, push-on's don't have a real good
> reputation. And, even though you used the correct crimping tool, the
> crimps could still be too loose.
> Regardless of what anyone says, I like solder - of course, I also like
> tailwheels and primer!
>
> Dave Bristol
> EAA Technical Counselor
>
>
> John Allen wrote:
>
> >I had a problem with one of the wires in my RV and I'm looking for ideas.
The wire in question is the +12v one that feeds the strobe power supply and
runs from the fuse block to the panel switch. From the switch another wire
goes directly to a screw-on terminal block below the seat and then on to the
power supply in the left wingtip. The power supply is grounded to the
airframe.
> >
> >I noticed some time ago that the power strobes would only seem to run
when the alternator was on (i.e above 12v) The other day I noticed it
wasn't running at all. I did notice that both AMP connectors on the switch
had some brown discoloration on the blue sleeve. I also noticed that there
was brown discoloration on the connector at the fuse panel. I replaced the
wire from the fuse block to the switch and the circuit began working
correctly. I then replaced the switch with one of higher quality. I also
moved the fuse and wire to another empty slot on the fuse block
> >
> >The power supply is rated at 7amps. The wire is all 16AWG. The fuse is
10A. The connectors are all AMP PIDG .25" push-on assembled with the
correct crimping tool. I did send the Power Supply to Whelen to have it
checked out
> >
> >The brown discoloration tells me there was excessive heat in the wire at
the AMP connectors, yet the components all seem to be within tolerance. The
heat buildup must have been significant enough to fail the wire over time,
which causes me a bit of concern. The fact that the browning occured on
both wires at the connector (i.e. on two separate wires) tells me the
problem was not specific to my assembly technique.
> >Since there was discoloring of the connector at the fuse block, I am lead
to believe the problem wasn't just the switch.
> >
> >One other piece of information. The failed wiring would give me an
no-load indication of 12.5 volts on the VOM. However when the wire was put
under load (i.e. attached to the strobe power supply) the voltage at the
conection of the +12v wire and the power supply was only 7 volts. Therefore
the failure of the wire was not total.
> >
> >I'm scratching my head on this one. I replaced the wire with another one
just like it, and am watching it closely.
> >
> >Any ideas?
> >
> >John Allen
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >socal-rvlist-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada.
Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more.
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________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
From: "Norman and Gretchen Howell" <testwest(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
Hi Dave and everyone
May I suggest, Dave, you go to the Aeroelectric Connection web site
www.aeroelectric.com and read it from stem to stern.
For everyone else, I'll suggest the statements made by Dave, below,
regarding Fast-On connectors are not supported by physics, or by current
industry practice. I am sure you'll find Fast-On connectors on current
production light airplanes by Cessna, Raytheon, etc.
Soldering connectors is highly process sensitive. A PIDG crimp in a proper
tool is not.
A screwed connection is a vibration-sensitive failure point, and increases
parts count. The more parts, the less reliable the overall system.
Dave wrote "Regardless of what anyone says, I like solder...". This is,
unfortunately, an emotional argument used as a final straw against any
logical rebuttal to a stated position. Any guy on this list who is married
knows the futility of trying to counter an emotional argument with a logical
one. A fellow has a right to any opinion he wants, and that's fine. NO ONE
has the right to pass on their emotionally-derived position as a basis for
engineering advice of any sort.
John, I'd say the advice you received below is worth exactly what you paid
for it. For everyone else, we all owe it to one another to provide solid,
factual information backed up by repeatable experiments and tests, not
hearsay and old wive's tales. The aeroelectric list on the Matronics list
server provides the some of the most solid, factual information on the net
for builders of experimental aircraft.
Some portion of John's wiring has a very high resistance, perhaps an
internal switch failure or some other problem. I'd suggest to John to
measure the resistance of the removed/discolored wiring/switch between the
fuse block and the power supply, and compare that to the replaced wiring and
switch. Let us know what you find.
This is not meant to be a flame, and if anyone is offended, I'm sorry. I am
also sorry to burden everyone with this excessive SIG, below, but when I
have to write an e-mail like this, sometimes it helps.
Norman Howell
EAA Flight Advisor #1, and
Experimental Test Pilot
The Boeing Company
----Original Message-----
From: Dave Bristol [mailto:bj034(at)lafn.org]
Subject: Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
John,
Your problem is caused by a loose connection, either a poor crimp or
poor contact on the push-on connector. My recommendation is to get rid
of the push-on's and replace them with screw connectors. I know, that
means replacing switches etc. but, push-on's don't have a real good
reputation. And, even though you used the correct crimping tool, the
crimps could still be too loose.
Regardless of what anyone says, I like solder - of course, I also like
tailwheels and primer!
Dave Bristol
EAA Technical Counselor
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: [SoCAL-RVlist] Wire puzzle
>
>I just figured I'd forward this here to stir things up... 8-)
>
>)_( Dan
Dan, if you would forward this back to John, I'd appreciate it.
I would like to have his crimp tool, exemplar samples of any un-used
PIDG terminals in question, the overheated terminals still on "failed"
wires, overheated switch and fuseblock. I'd like to get to the
bottom of his problem but it will require some detailed analysis.
I'll replace any and all components he sends me with new ones.
If the tool is bad or not appropriate to the task, I'll make
him a hell-of-a-deal on a new one.
If there was but one joint involved, a missed opportunity
for adequate assembly is suspect. A series of similar failures,
suggests a broader cause . . .
Have him contact me directly if he's interested and we'll work
out details for the exchange. I'll publish findings here and
on the website.
Bob . . .
> > >I had a problem with one of the wires in my RV and I'm looking for
ideas.
>The wire in question is the +12v one that feeds the strobe power supply and
>runs from the fuse block to the panel switch. From the switch another wire
>goes directly to a screw-on terminal block below the seat and then on to
the
>power supply in the left wingtip. The power supply is grounded to the
>airframe.
> > >
> > >I noticed some time ago that the power strobes would only seem to run
>when the alternator was on (i.e above 12v) The other day I noticed it
>wasn't running at all. I did notice that both AMP connectors on the switch
>had some brown discoloration on the blue sleeve. I also noticed that there
>was brown discoloration on the connector at the fuse panel. I replaced the
>wire from the fuse block to the switch and the circuit began working
>correctly. I then replaced the switch with one of higher quality. I also
>moved the fuse and wire to another empty slot on the fuse block
> > >
> > >The power supply is rated at 7amps. The wire is all 16AWG. The fuse
is
>10A. The connectors are all AMP PIDG .25" push-on assembled with the
>correct crimping tool. I did send the Power Supply to Whelen to have it
>checked out
> > >
> > >The brown discoloration tells me there was excessive heat in the wire
at
>the AMP connectors, yet the components all seem to be within tolerance. The
>heat buildup must have been significant enough to fail the wire over time,
>which causes me a bit of concern. The fact that the browning occured on
>both wires at the connector (i.e. on two separate wires) tells me the
>problem was not specific to my assembly technique.
> > >Since there was discoloring of the connector at the fuse block, I am
lead
>to believe the problem wasn't just the switch.
> > >
> > >One other piece of information. The failed wiring would give me an
>no-load indication of 12.5 volts on the VOM. However when the wire was put
>under load (i.e. attached to the strobe power supply) the voltage at the
>conection of the +12v wire and the power supply was only 7 volts.
Therefore
>the failure of the wire was not total.
> > >
> > >I'm scratching my head on this one. I replaced the wire with another
one
>just like it, and am watching it closely.
> > >
> > >Any ideas?
> > >
> > >John Allen
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Landing Lights
Eric,
The only significant attraction of an "LED landing light" for me is - lower
current draw.
- Can you give an estimated current draw for the 55W sealed beam
halogen bulb and for the 380 LEDs and circuit board?
Life of a halogen vs LEDs is not a "tie breaker" - as halogen is so much
better than incandescant that I don't care for more life, given the low
price. The extra life of LEDs is beyond my lifespan so is no big selling
point.
- But, I want to go IFR at night on a 35amp alternator, with as no
"discharge" on the loadmeter/ammeter when I turn on the landing light at end
of the flight - or, if going to be drawing down the battery for 3 minutes,
then want as little "draw" on the battery as I can get.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Landing Lights
>
> A regular 55W Wagner automotive sealed beam halogen is 1000 lumens.
> Cost....a few bucks.
>
> The Luxeons are fabulous but pricey. For example a Luxeon Star is about
100
> lumens and $40. (1000 lumens for $400).
> The led landing light I envision would be 380 leds at 0.20 each or $76
plus
> the printed circuit board ($24 maybe) and would be roughly equivalent to
the
> round 55W Wagner. MAYBE.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
> "I only regret my economies."
> -Reynolds Price
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Led Landing lights |
In the halcyon days of the RB-36 the largest aerial recon camera ever built
took night photos from high altitude using the largest electronic flashtube
ever built. The bomb-bays were full of high voltage capacitors and power
supplies. Someone decided using a few really big magnesium flares was
better. So high technology is often not the better solution.
>Eric,
>The only significant attraction of an "LED landing light" for me is >lower
current draw.
There are lots of solutions that would provide lower current draw that would
be very unsatisfactory.
>Can you give an estimated current draw for the 55W sealed beam >halogen
bulb and for the 380 LEDs and circuit board?
About the same. The leds, however are rapidly taking the lead. In a few
years there will be no contest at all. White leds are far less efficient
than the other colors. Weight is hardly an issue--A Wagner 55W lamp weigh 9
ounces. But it lasts 50 hours or so,
not 50 thousand hours.
>Life of a halogen vs LEDs is not a "tie breaker" - as halogen is so >much
better than incandescent that I don't care for more life, >given the low
price. The extra life of LEDs is beyond my lifespan >so is no big selling
point.
Many builders want the reliability and extremely long lifetime of leds
(essentially permanent!). Leds also do very well in high-vibration
environments.
>But, I want to go IFR at night on a 35amp alternator, with as >[little]
"discharge" on the loadmeter/ammeter when I turn on the >landing light at
end of the flight - or, if going to be drawing >down the battery for 3
minutes, then want as little "draw" on the >battery as I can get.
>David Carter
Thanks for the comment Dave.
A lot of what is happening in OBAM aircraft is not very scientific. There
are always tradeoffs, too. My technologic style is not "early-adopter". My
computer is usually 5 years old and I don't have a PDA or cellphone. But I
have replaced a lot of filament lamps in every sort of vehicle. And more
than once that burned-out rear white airplane tail-light has stopped an
otherwise enjoyable evening flight.
I don't believe an LED landing light is a must-have. But in several years it
will be the only reasonable choice. And filament lamps will be sold in
antique parts stores along with carburetors, breaker-point distributors,
relays and vacuum tubes. And that's okay.
Here's a bunch of good articles on the subject.
http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/techpaperspres/
Enjoy!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <kkinney(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | ARC RT-359A transponder manual? |
Does anyone have access to an ARC RT-359A transponder manual I could borrow?
SigmaTek (who owns ARC) wants $125 for a copy. They generously knocked off 40%,
but even $75 seems a bit much for a manual that hasn't changed in the last 20
years.
Regards,
Kevin Kinney
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mjheinen(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest:Led landing lights |
/ other lights also
I modified one inspection plate under each wing of my Glastar to accept a reflector
and three each 20 degree 5mm 9000mcd white led
lights. They have plenty of light for under the wing camping and you could leave
them on for a month or two and still be able to crank the engine. I left all
6 led lights on for 6 weeks hooked up to one of those small rechargable portable
battery jumpers used to jump start a car. They were still just as bright and
had about 1/4 of the charge left in the battery. The way I built them they
would fit in the inspection plate but if I ever wanted to remove them they are
interchangable with the regular inspection plate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <mjheinen(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest:Led landing lights |
/ other lights also
I modified one inspection plate under each wing of my Glastar to accept a reflector
and three each 20 degree 5mm 9000mcd white led
lights. They have plenty of light for under the wing camping and you could leave
them on for a month or two and still be able to crank the engine. I left all
6 led lights on for 6 weeks hooked up to one of those small rechargable portable
battery jumpers used to jump start a car. They were still just as bright and
had about 1/4 of the charge left in the battery. The way I built them they
would fit in the inspection plate but if I ever wanted to remove them they are
interchangable with the regular inspection plate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | irampil(at)notes.cc.sunysb.edu |
| Subject: | more on LED Landing Lights |
07/30/2003 03:00:28 PM
The expected draw of a standard
100 W PAR incandescent landing light is about 9 amps
55 W halogen would be about 5 amps but may not have the same focused beam
density of photons
An LED lamp (hypothetical at this point, and still requiring improved
emitter efficiency) might draw 1-2 amps.
Ira N224XS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | irampil(at)notes.cc.sunysb.edu |
| Subject: | Back to audio isolator project |
07/30/2003 03:03:50 PM
Hi Bob,
Are the prebuilt isolators nearly ready for purchase?
I should be out of the paint shop and into the upolsterer next week.
I'd like to purchase as soon as you are ready.
Thanks,
Ira N224XS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Back to audio isolator project |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Are the prebuilt isolators nearly ready for purchase?
>I should be out of the paint shop and into the upolsterer next week.
>I'd like to purchase as soon as you are ready.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ira N224XS
I'm not planning on offering any assembled beyond
the prototype which IS still available at $100.00.
You may purchase it if you wish.
I do offer boards for assembling the amplifier along
with detailed data package for assembly which is
presently downloadable from my website at:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Audio_Prelim.pdf
Bare boards are $20 each and can be ordered
at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob (or anyone else):
Which Z drawing could I use for a Mazda rotary engine, single alternator, dual
battery application.
I'm helping a friend, who is building an RV9A, with his electrical system work.
Any and all comments welcome.
Thanks
Gabe A Ferrer
Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
RV6 N2GX 24 Hours
South Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Back Up Battery |
>
>
>Bob (or anyone else):
>Which Z drawing could I use for a Mazda rotary engine, single alternator,
>dual battery application.
>I'm helping a friend, who is building an RV9A, with his electrical system
>work.
>Any and all comments welcome.
>Thanks
>
>Gabe A Ferrer
>Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
>Cell: 561 758 8894
>RV6 N2GX 24 Hours
>South Florida
Z-11 would get you started, Z-30 adds a second battery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Back Up Battery |
> >
> >
> >Bob (or anyone else):
> >Which Z drawing could I use for a Mazda rotary engine, single alternator,
> >dual battery application.
> >I'm helping a friend, who is building an RV9A, with his electrical system
> >work.
> >Any and all comments welcome.
> >Thanks
> >
> >Gabe A Ferrer
> >Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
> >Cell: 561 758 8894
> >RV6 N2GX 24 Hours
> >South Florida
Hey Gabe,
That friend of yours building an RV-9 with a rotary wouldn't happen to
be Bernie Kerr would it? Can't be too many folks building an RV-9 and
sticking a rotary in it in South Florida.
I'm a friend of Bernie.
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW 200+ Rotary Hours
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Amit Dagan" <amitdagan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | SDK-1 dimmer kit for EL ??? |
Q:
I have an automotive aftermarket electro-luminescense kit that plugs into
the 12v cigarette lighter socket, and you stick the 16" EL strips where ever
you like in your car (double sided sticky tape included).
Ofcourse I like the price (~$30 at GIJoes) for a panel light system, and I
will install this on the underside of the glare shield.
I was wondering, other than controlling the frequency in the EL converter,
if I used one of the dimmers in your sdk-1 kit,in series before the power
supply to the EL converter, would that dim the light ?
The EL kit takes 12v, 60milliAmps (0.72Watts).
Thanks,
Amit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Backup Electrical Power |
Dan,
Looks good.
I am amazed that three lemons can make a jet exhaust so HOT!
By the way---Very tidy workshop you have there.
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Backup Electrical Power |
>
>I have an idea for a backup electrical system for my RV-7...it involves
>having about 934 lemons onboard...
>
>http://www.checkoway.com/lemon_battery.html
>
>What do you think?
>
Neat posting! I've .pdf'ed a copy for sharing
with students. The experiment neatly demonstrates
reactions based on the electrochemical series tables
of common materials. It also demonstrates source
impedance (constant voltage, variable current
depending on depth of immersion).
Suggest you work toward the more elegant solution
of reducing number of lemons required . . . probability
of failure is 155x more likely than for say, 6 lemons.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Do reporters ever get it right? |
Interesting tid-bit from latest Avweb posing:
http://www.avweb.com/newswire/9_31b/complete/185409-1.html#5e
. . . I'm sitting here wondering how and "electrical failure"
can force a landing in a high-wing, gravity fed fuel system
aircraft.
Even more bizarre is the item just below the one cited.
Where can a pilot's head be at when an aircraft like this
runs out of fuel?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | RE:ARC RT-359A transponder manual? |
> Does anyone have access to an ARC RT-359A transponder manual I could borrow?
>
> SigmaTek (who owns ARC) wants $125 for a copy. They generously knocked off 40%,
> but even $75 seems a bit much for a manual that hasn't changed in the last 20
> years.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin Kinney
Do you need the entire manual, or just an installation pin out?
MikeM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Fred Mahan (mahan(at)cfl.rr.com) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 at 06:25:20
>
>Thursday, July 31, 2003
>
>Fred Mahan
>
>,
>Email: mahan(at)cfl.rr.com
>Comments/Questions: Bob --
>Thanks again for the great book!
>Because of needing clearance in my particular installation (composite),
>I'd like to use a countersunk head 5/16" bolt for my ground (ring tab
>clamping between nuts, not between a nut and the countersink). I can't
>find 5/16" countersunk in brass, although 1/4" is available (and
>1/2"!). I can find bronze at the local marina. Is bronze an acceptable
>substitute for brass?
Sure . . . but I'm not sure I understand your problem. What surface
does the
flat-head screw clamp against? Do I presume there are NO electrical
connections between the head of the screw and the first nut?
>Fred I. Mahan
>mahan(at)cfl.rr.com
>PS I'm on the Aerolectric Connection list.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Reed, Britt/FSC Salt Lake" <BReed(at)slcrail.com> |
| Subject: | Do reporters ever get it right? |
Read further for the the Murphy related news -
...Bombardier Opens The Curtain...
program director Klemens Dolzer told us initial engineering flight tests in
a Murphy Moose experimental and a Piper Arrow are turning in even better
economy than originally planned.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Do reporters ever get it right?
Interesting tid-bit from latest Avweb posing:
http://www.avweb.com/newswire/9_31b/complete/185409-1.html#5e
. . . I'm sitting here wondering how and "electrical failure"
can force a landing in a high-wing, gravity fed fuel system
aircraft.
Even more bizarre is the item just below the one cited.
Where can a pilot's head be at when an aircraft like this
runs out of fuel?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Red and Green LED Position lights |
I posted this on my website for anyone who want to see it.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/redandgreenledpositionlights.pdf
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator (Z-24) |
Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I cant figure
out in your book.
I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am wondering
why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go to zero and
the alternator will stop producing power.
If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current back in the
excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the internals are less
complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces AND a bit
of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
that though!
Thanks, Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator |
(Z-24)
The problem is that the little wire on an internally regulated alternator is
not the field wire. The field current is supplied from the voltage
regulator which is inside the alternator. The little wire is the start-up
wire. It allows cars to keep the alternator from starting until after the
motor is running. Once the alternator starts you can disconnect power from
that wire all you want and the alternator will just keep on making juice.
(Lemon Juice ?? Sorry :-) The alternator doesn't even shut down when you
open the B-lead but at least it ain't connected to the airplane anymore.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator
(Z-24)
>
> Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I cant
figure
> out in your book.
>
> I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
> alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
> looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am wondering
> why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
>
> In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go to zero
and
> the alternator will stop producing power.
>
> If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current back in the
> excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
> contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the internals are
less
> complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces AND a bit
> of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
> that though!
>
> Thanks, Steve
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator |
(Z-24)
>
>
>Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I cant figure
>out in your book.
>
>I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
>alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
>looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am wondering
>why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
>
>In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go to zero and
>the alternator will stop producing power.
>
>If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current back in the
>excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
>contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the internals are less
>complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces AND a bit
>of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
>that though!
Field excitation for an internally regulated alternator comes
directly from the b-lead through solid state devices. The itty-bitty
wire that goes into the back of an internally regulated alternator
is a CONTROL wire to an integrated circuit. During an OV condition,
you cannot guarantee that removal of signal from this wire will
shut down the runaway alternator. In fact, on some cars, this wire
is used only to DELAY onset of alternator operation until after
the ECFI system says "okay to load engine" . . . once turned on
by way of the control wire, it cannot be turned off even when
the alternator is working perfectly.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Internal.jpg
Consider what happens when transistor Q1 shorts . . .
hence the need for b-lead disconnect contactor IN ADDITION to
removal of control voltage.
On the other hand, alternators with external regulators get
100% of field current through the itty-bitty wire. Disconnecting
this wire from the bus via (1) OV relay, (2) crowbar tripping of field
breaker or (3) simply shutting the alternator down via panel switch
will bring a recalcitrant system to heel.
See http://216.55.140.222/temp/External.jpg
If one were really paranoid about all possibilities, I have
seen ONE INSTANCE of alternator runaway on a Mooney about
30 years ago wherein the OV relay could not control the event.
This was a case of a failure internal to the alternator
that took the field excitation directly to the b-lead terminal.
This was a mechanical failure due to poor design which Mooney
took steps to correct immediately.
One can build a firewall against this event by adding a b-lead
contactor in series with all alternators . . . excite the
contactor from bus voltage taken DOWNSTREAM of ov protection
but BEFORE regulator. I've never warmed up much to this
notion, I believe probability of re-occurrence is extremely
low.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Shielding the tach lead |
I called Lockwood aviation for any ideas they may have about reducing noise. You
may recall I'm getting a lot of raspy white noise in a Microair 760 when the
PTT is pushed. I get the same noise when the radio is completely isolated from
the aircraft's (Kolb Twinstar Mk III, Rotax 912UL) and powered by a battery,
so I'm working under the theory that I need to reduce radiated noise. The
guys at Lockwood immediately asked if I had shielded the tach lead. They said
this is a problem they see a lot. There are two leads from the Rotax that in
the installation manual are shown going to a "rev-counter". I have the Grand
Rapids EIS, which calls for one of the leads to be grounded, and the other to
go to pin #6 of the unit. So here is my question - if I use shielded wire for
the lead going to pin 6, do I ground the shielding at both ends? Or could I
connect the shielding to the second Rotax lead and ground it at the panel near
the EIS? The simplest thing would be to ground the shielding and the second
lead on the grounding block near the engine. I don't know, it's just hard for
me to believe that the tach lead could really be the problem, but I'm trying
anything I hear, and I'd like to give this a shot. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Duncan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator (Z-24) |
Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I cant figure
out in your book.
I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am wondering
why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go to zero and
the alternator will stop producing power.
If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current back in the
excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the internals are less
complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces AND a bit
of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
that though!
Thanks, Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated |
Alternator (Z-24)
>
>
>Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I cant figure
>out in your book.
>
>I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
>alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
>looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am wondering
>why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
>
>In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go to zero and
>the alternator will stop producing power.
>
>If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current back in the
>excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
>contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the internals are less
>complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces AND a bit
>of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
>that though!
>
>Thanks, Steve
See:
http://216.55.140.222/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
>
>
>I called Lockwood aviation for any ideas they may have about reducing
>noise. You may recall I'm getting a lot of raspy white noise in a
>Microair 760 when the PTT is pushed. I get the same noise when the radio
>is completely isolated from the aircraft's (Kolb Twinstar Mk III, Rotax
>912UL) and powered by a battery, so I'm working under the theory that I
>need to reduce radiated noise. The guys at Lockwood immediately asked if
>I had shielded the tach lead. They said this is a problem they see a
>lot. There are two leads from the Rotax that in the installation manual
>are shown going to a "rev-counter". I have the Grand Rapids EIS, which
>calls for one of the leads to be grounded, and the other to go to pin #6
>of the unit. So here is my question - if I use shielded wire for the lead
>going to pin 6, do I ground the shielding at both ends? Or could I
>connect the shielding to the second Rotax lead and ground it at the panel
>near the EIS? The simplest thing would be to ground th!
>e shielding and the second lead on the grounding block near the engine. I
>don't know, it's just hard for me to believe that the tach lead could
>really be the problem, but I'm trying anything I hear, and I'd like to
>give this a shot. Any thoughts?
I think that tach signal comes off the AC output of the
PM alternator. It's almost a sine wave and very low frequency . . .
perhaps on the order of 200 Hz, I share your doubts as to
the probability of this being a noise source.
Try any and all combinations of shield grounding including
not having shields connected at all. I suspect there will
be no observable difference in noise.
Who is hearing the noise. When PTT is pushed, do the
folks you are talking to hear it? If you're hearing it,
then it's part of the sidetone audio routed to the headsets
to monitor radio performance and inprove diction while
transmitting. See if the same thing happens with just
the intercom PTT activated. This would help isolated the
problem down by eliminating or confirming participation
of the transmitter.
I presume your microphone and headset jacks are insulated
from any electrical connection with the airframe . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SDK-1 dimmer kit for EL ??? |
>
>Q:
>I have an automotive aftermarket electro-luminescense kit that plugs into
>the 12v cigarette lighter socket, and you stick the 16" EL strips where ever
>you like in your car (double sided sticky tape included).
>Ofcourse I like the price (~$30 at GIJoes) for a panel light system, and I
>will install this on the underside of the glare shield.
>
>I was wondering, other than controlling the frequency in the EL converter,
>if I used one of the dimmers in your sdk-1 kit,in series before the power
>supply to the EL converter, would that dim the light ?
>The EL kit takes 12v, 60milliAmps (0.72Watts).
The SDK-1 is a rheostat that is specific to the
control of an incandescent lamp with a current draw
of 220 to 250 mA. Any other lamp load would not yield
satisfactory behavior.
You need a voltage-regulated dimmer like the
DIM5-14 at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218
or build your own like:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/DimFab.pdf
You may find that full counter-clockwise rotation of the
potentiometer is too dim for this lighting technology.
If so, make a measurement of the voltage that produces
the desired minimum light output. Give me the value
and I'll calculate new resistor sizes to give you
the proper range of control for the potentiometer.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dual battery question |
>Hi Bob.
>First, thanks for writing your book and providing the wealth of info on
>your website.
>
>Perhaps this is a new and increasingly popular requirement, but here's my
>situation-
>
>With the new EFIS type engine monitors, there's a need to keep their
>supply voltage up during cranking. BM EFIS One, for example, takes 90
>seconds to boot, and will drop off during cranking. So, without 2
>batteries, you can't tell what the engine sensors are sensing for a long
>time after startup.
>
>My thinking is that the combination of good batterie(s) and low-drain
>systems leads to an adequate reserve from 2 batteries, negating the need
>for dual alternators. (gee.. almost an Alan Greenspan sentence..)
>
>I'm building a Cozy MkIV and planning to implement my electrical system as
>in the "generic light aircraft electrical system". Since I only add 135lb
>to the plane, I'd like to put as small a battery as I can in the back and
>still crank the 360. I'd like to keep the essential bus voltage up during
>cranking, so I thought I'd add a battery up front which (for
>simplification) wouldn't be used for cranking but would be kept afloat by
>the alternator. If I lose the alternator, I'd like to be able to use both
>batteries in sequence to feed the essential bus.
>
>So, my thought was to simply connect the aux battery to the other end of
>the SPDT essential-bus-alt-feed switch. If that would be ok, I'd instead
>use a DP3T switch for OFF / ESSN-ALT-FEED / AUX-BAT-FEED. That way, all
>switches are down when you walk away. My concern is that recharging the
>aux battery could put too much load on the switch or isolation diode. How
>much current might a 10-20Ah battery draw to charge?
Why not put in dual batteries in a Figure Z-11 with Z-30 addition
of second battery. Run ENDURANCE bus from aux battery. For
startup, close e-bus alternate feed switch and get ATIS and
clearance. EFIS system comes up during this time too.
Close only main battery switch and start engine. After engine
start, close aux battery switch and turn e-bus alternate feed
switch off.
In this case, you'd put a new battery in aux battery location
every year and move aux battery to main battery slot. Your
e-bus en route loads should STILL be sized to allow continue
flight to intended destination AUX battery only.
You ALWAYS have access to both batteries by closing both
contactors . . . but with planning and considered checklist,
you'll never find yourself short of electrons before you
find yourself short of fuel.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Flexible Electroluminescent Lighting, 888 457-0117" <beingseen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SDK-1 dimmer kit for EL ??? |
888 457-0117"
Hello Robert,
Placing the dimmer between the inverter and the power source will enable you
to control the brightness of the lamp. The brightness of the lamp is
effected by the level of voltage being supplied to the inverter and in turn
to the lamp. Hope this helps.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SDK-1 dimmer kit for EL ???
>
> >
> >Q:
> >I have an automotive aftermarket electro-luminescense kit that plugs into
> >the 12v cigarette lighter socket, and you stick the 16" EL strips where
ever
> >you like in your car (double sided sticky tape included).
> >Ofcourse I like the price (~$30 at GIJoes) for a panel light system, and
I
> >will install this on the underside of the glare shield.
> >
> >I was wondering, other than controlling the frequency in the EL
converter,
> >if I used one of the dimmers in your sdk-1 kit,in series before the power
> >supply to the EL converter, would that dim the light ?
> >The EL kit takes 12v, 60milliAmps (0.72Watts).
>
> The SDK-1 is a rheostat that is specific to the
> control of an incandescent lamp with a current draw
> of 220 to 250 mA. Any other lamp load would not yield
> satisfactory behavior.
>
> You need a voltage-regulated dimmer like the
> DIM5-14 at:
>
> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218
>
> or build your own like:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/temp/DimFab.pdf
>
> You may find that full counter-clockwise rotation of the
> potentiometer is too dim for this lighting technology.
> If so, make a measurement of the voltage that produces
> the desired minimum light output. Give me the value
> and I'll calculate new resistor sizes to give you
> the proper range of control for the potentiometer.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
Bob,
You have previously mentioned a way to substitute ROMANT.SHX (??) for the default
Autocad font.
I noticed today, when I opened your Z12h.dwg that my Intellicad program did the
following:
"Substituting font [ICAD.FNT] for font [ROMANS.shx].
"Substituting font [ICAD.FNT] for font [VELVET-L.SHX].
"Substituting font [ICAD.FNT] for font [ROMANT.SHX].
Would you please give the reason for your preference for a particular font (or
fonts) and how to make one be the default?
Also, when I tried to open Z11h.dwg, I got "bad DWG info". I'll re-download that
one from your site. The others have been opening just fine.
David Carter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Haywire" <haywire(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator |
(Z-24)
Hi Bob
I used an internally regulated alternator (ND) and installed the B-lead
contactor. I ordered the components from Digi-Key to build the OVM but one
item was backordered (just got the notice it has shipped), so I don't
currently have any overvoltage protection. But it's an extremely rare
occurrence right? After all I've never had an overvoltage in 20 years of
driving automobiles.
Well, after about an hour of taxi-testing in 30C+ weather under various
load conditions, to test the cooling system under worst case conditions (oh
yeah, and to have some fun... dreaming of flight :-), I noticed my system
voltage at just over 16 volts. I immediately pulled the fuse, opening the
B-lead contactor and taxied back to the hanger. After shut-down and cowl
removal, I found the alt. to be to hot to hold my hand on. On restart with
the fuse back in it would not charge at all. I'm not certain if the heat
contributed to it's failure.
So I removed the internal regulator, and went to the auto parts store.
New
reg was $30 and would be shipped overnight. 1975 Ford reg was $9 and he had
40 0f 'em in stock. So I bought the Ford reg. The alt brush leads needed to
be modified and a small aluminium bracket had to be fabricated to take the
place of the internal reg. It took about 1 1/2 hours to make this mod, of
which about an hour was spent just studying the best way to do it. Actual
work was less than 30 min. It works great.
Now I have the regulator mounted on the firewall near the battery in a
cooler location. It works perfectly and if it ever does fail, I know I can
get another cheap & anywhere. Since I already have the B-lead contactor
installed, I decided to leave it so even though it is extremely unlikely I
will be protected in the event of a "mooney-like" fault. I wouldn't have
gone to the trouble of installing this contactor just for this, but since
its already there... I will build and install the OVM within a few days.
I just thought I'd pass this along as an example of why Bob's always
right.... :-)
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
"Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe in,
Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass".
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 6:21 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated
> Alternator (Z-24)
>
>
> III"
>
> >
> >
> >Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I
> cant figure
> >out in your book.
> >
> >I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
> >alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
> >looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am
> wondering
> >why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
> >
> >In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go
> to zero and
> >the alternator will stop producing power.
> >
> >If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current
> back in the
> >excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
> >contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the
> internals are less
> >complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces
> AND a bit
> >of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
> >that though!
> >
> >Thanks, Steve
>
> See:
>
> http://216.55.140.222/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>My alternator field circuit breaker keeps popping after running the engine
>less than 1/2 hour. I have your overvoltage protector, and find that
>current varies linearly with input voltage on the bench. At 16.81V (near
>trigger pt.) I get about 1.7 mA. I'm using a 10k pot on a variable DC
>power supply and measuring both the voltage and current.
>
>I thought the device was supposed to be an open circuit until
>it got to the trigger point.
There is a voltage divider inside that scales input voltage
down to the operating range of the trigger device so it
will draw a few milliamperes. It is all practical purposes
an open circuit and the small current you observed is not
an indicator of bad/failed device.
>Should I replace the overvoltage protector?
Are you watching bus voltage when the trip event happens?
Maybe the ov module is doing exactly what it is supposed to
be doing?
> Also, once it fires, do you have a suggestion for a reset?
I presume you have the recommended circuit breaker
in series with this device. Pushing the breaker back
in resets the system.
>Turning off the master on our plane would cut the engine.
???? why would you do this ???? I can deduce
no reason why an engine should be dependent upon
position of the DC Power Master Switch . . . and
in fact, recommend that all electrically dependent
engine components run from an always-hot battery
bus.
What engine/alternator combination are you using?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated Alternator |
(Z-24)
Bob - thanks for that VERY high quality answer. I will get one more
contactor since that all makes excellent sense. Thanks, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crowbar O.V. & Internally Regulated
Alternator (Z-24)
>
>
>Bob - sorry if I am being a bit obtuse but there is something I cant figure
>out in your book.
>
>I am building and RV9a and already have a new internally regulated 60amp
>alternator (Nippondenso) from VANS so I think I will use it. I have been
>looking at Z-24 in order to minimise the fun of a runaway and am wondering
>why the alternator disconnect contactor is needed?
>
>In the event that the Crowbar OV trips the field current will go to zero
and
>the alternator will stop producing power.
>
>If your answer is 'yes but an internal fault could put current back in the
>excitation windings' then my question is so why don't you have the same
>contactor in diags z-9 and z-23 for example? I guess the internals are less
>complex but its still a problem. Is this the case of belt braces AND a bit
>of string to hold your trousers up? I expect it is much more subtle than
>that though!
>
>Thanks, Steve
See:
http://216.55.140.222/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
I'll try to address your points in order
Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse per
revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp spike of at
least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when at 5000
rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two graphs for
the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and the other
about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the leads at
the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does I'll hook
up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It is
present when the radio and headphone connections are completely isolated
from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you suggested.
The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used nylon
mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of the
headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead went
back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the 760
intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom PTT was
pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I have a
Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked up to
the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same noise through
the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I do not
hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise version and
I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working pretty
well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other planes or
the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been inaccurate,
prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when the
engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at significant
power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
Thanks very much for your time - I'll try disconnecting the tach leads
tomorrow and report.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
> >
> >
> >I called Lockwood aviation for any ideas they may have about reducing
> >noise. You may recall I'm getting a lot of raspy white noise in a
> >Microair 760 when the PTT is pushed. I get the same noise when the radio
> >is completely isolated from the aircraft's (Kolb Twinstar Mk III, Rotax
> >912UL) and powered by a battery, so I'm working under the theory that I
> >need to reduce radiated noise. The guys at Lockwood immediately asked if
> >I had shielded the tach lead. They said this is a problem they see a
> >lot. There are two leads from the Rotax that in the installation manual
> >are shown going to a "rev-counter". I have the Grand Rapids EIS, which
> >calls for one of the leads to be grounded, and the other to go to pin #6
> >of the unit. So here is my question - if I use shielded wire for the
lead
> >going to pin 6, do I ground the shielding at both ends? Or could I
> >connect the shielding to the second Rotax lead and ground it at the panel
> >near the EIS? The simplest thing would be to ground th!
> >e shielding and the second lead on the grounding block near the engine.
I
> >don't know, it's just hard for me to believe that the tach lead could
> >really be the problem, but I'm trying anything I hear, and I'd like to
> >give this a shot. Any thoughts?
>
> I think that tach signal comes off the AC output of the
> PM alternator. It's almost a sine wave and very low frequency . . .
> perhaps on the order of 200 Hz, I share your doubts as to
> the probability of this being a noise source.
>
> Try any and all combinations of shield grounding including
> not having shields connected at all. I suspect there will
> be no observable difference in noise.
>
> Who is hearing the noise. When PTT is pushed, do the
> folks you are talking to hear it? If you're hearing it,
> then it's part of the sidetone audio routed to the headsets
> to monitor radio performance and inprove diction while
> transmitting. See if the same thing happens with just
> the intercom PTT activated. This would help isolated the
> problem down by eliminating or confirming participation
> of the transmitter.
>
> I presume your microphone and headset jacks are insulated
> from any electrical connection with the airframe . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Autocad fonts |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>You have previously mentioned a way to substitute ROMANT.SHX (??) for the
>default Autocad font.
>
>I noticed today, when I opened your Z12h.dwg that my Intellicad program
>did the following:
>"Substituting font [ICAD.FNT] for font [ROMANS.shx].
>
>"Substituting font [ICAD.FNT] for font [VELVET-L.SHX].
>
>"Substituting font [ICAD.FNT] for font [ROMANT.SHX].
>
>Would you please give the reason for your preference for a particular font
>(or fonts) and how to make one be the default?
Fonts to be used on any drawing are called out IN
THE FILE for the drawing you are working on. The only
reason there is a "default font" that AutoCAD or any
other drawing program seems to call for is because
unless you tell it otherwise, the application opens
a rudimentary, blank drawing file as soon as you
open the application.
Then, if you give the command "text" then it will
begin to create text in whatever font is defined as
"standard" in the "style" listing for that drawing.
For AutoCAD, that font is txt.shx or some such thing.
Never did like the looks of that font. For years
I used a font not generally offered with Autocad
that looks like Futura . . . a nice, block letter
with good legibility. This is the font called out
for many aviation placards and instrument faces.
The name of the font file was "velvet-l.shx"
On many of my drawings, you'll find the cad program
asking for velvel-l.shx which is why I include it
on my distribution disk and in the downloadable
drawings folder at
http://216.55.140.222/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings
Now, when your cad program opens up one of my
drawings or anyone else's, you may find that
the application doesn't understand one or more
of the fonts called out on the drawing and it will
substitute something or ask you for a new
font file.
More recently, Autocad will use standard Windows
fonts in addition to the list of fonts supplied
with Autocad. You'll find less use of velvet-l
and more use of "Technic" which I believe is
a Windows font.
In any case, no mater what font is called out
on a drawing you open, you can change it at
will with the "style" command whereupon you'll
be given a list of existing style names
(which you can supply/edit) and their corresponding
font names (which will come from a list of
internal and external fonts recognized by the
application.)
>Also, when I tried to open Z11h.dwg, I got "bad DWG info". I'll
>re-download that one from your site. The others have been opening just fine.
I have to remember to "save" the uploaded files in the
oldest compatible AutoCAD format after I work on it
in ACAD2000. I may have fiddled with Z11 and
saved it in 2000 . . . I've just re-loaded it to
the server in Version 12 format which is as far
back as I can go. This should make the file
usable by any of the cad programs on my CD.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Connectors et. als. |
>Comments on http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wingwire/wingwire.html
>wingroot connector state: "If they have a disadvantage it is . . . PVC
>non-plated 7 strand wire".
>Bob, any builder considering this could logically be assumed to also
>be fabricating various other connectors during the wiring of his aircraft,
>and so, would be likely to become knowledgeable about crimping pins onto
>ends of wires and inserting them into connector shell of his choice -
>using tefzel insulated multistrand plated wires (less long term-corrosion
>vs unplated wires).
Sure . . . but the vast majority of connector needs you
will encounter are already specified by the nature of
connectors supplied with a product. There are very few,
if any connectors, necessarily dictated by the builder.
One such case is wing roots for aircraft wherein the
user EXPECTS to routinely mate and de-mate the wire
bundle in the normal course of operation. Others
have indicated an interest in making instrument
panels "un-pluggable" from the rest of the airplane
as maintenance aid.
>Using individual wire knife splices seems a simpler choice, as long as
>each wire is propoerly identified by a heat-shrinked label.
. . . true if this were not an operational break in
the bundle as described above. If it were my RV or similar
ship, I would have NO connectors at the wing root. I'd
put a service loop in the wire bundles before they enter
the fuselage so that should removal be required, there's
enough slack to simply cut the wires for removal and
rejoin them with butt-splices.
>Using the auto connector doubles the number of connections on
>wire ends (splicing it into the system) over either knife
>splices or a non-pre-wired connector.
True again . . . but none of the lower-parts-count
techniques have the convenience of a low-cost, robust
connector designed for multiple assembly-disassembly
cycles like the trailer wiring connector I illustrated.
>For an RV-4/6/7/8/9/10 with an adequate space between wing
>and fuselage (or put connector inside fuselage), which is
>a covered area, not subject to oil contamination or heat,
>what would be good choices of connectors?
It's quite easy to leave wing wiring long enough to reach to
final destination inside the fuselage. Leave these
wires un-connected until after last assembly of wings
to fuselage. I'm flying rentals that are 40 years old
most of which have never had the wings off. Why introduce
a failure mode where no need for one exists?
>I would appreciate your recommendations of those, in addition
>to the auto-trailer connector. The rationale for breaking the
>wires is: Some of us, building at home, only put one wing on
>at a time, or even if we put on both, we commonly remove the
>wings for trailering to the airport. That alone is a rational
>reason for having a "break" in the wing wiring. "rented spam
>cans" are built completely in a factory, and thus the rationale
>for not breaking the wires is valid in that case, but not so
>for home-builders working at home and having to disassemble
>and trailer to an airport for the "final assembly line" work.
If you trailer the airplane routinely to fly from an
airport and store the aircraft at home, then by all means,
make the electrical interface between wings and fuselage
convenient to the task. If this is not an ongoing requirement
after the airplane is finished, then leave wires un-connected
until after wings receive final mate.
If you need a robust, low cost connector then the suggestion
for a trailer wiring connector can be considered. If you
want to spend the dollars and time to acquire and install
more "aircraft like" connectors, consider the MS3470
series connectors like:
http://www.qscomp.cz/Pdf/MIL-C-26482-PT-Series-AAO_8-11.pdf
Because I have tools to install these connectors -AND-
assuming I needed a wing root connector in an airplane I'm
building, I'd probably use these. A mated pair of these
critters can probably be had for something on the order
of $50-70 or $100-140 per ship-set. These are very "aircraft
like" in appearance and performance but about 15 times
the cost of the trailer connector.
A popular connector with the electronics industry
has been around for about 50 years. The so-called
Cinch-Jones series which you can observe at:
http://www.cinch.com/products/jones_plugs/series_2400/index.html
These would easily accept modern wire but all
joints are soldered. Further, there is no standard
retention feature to keep these connectors
mated and their insertion/removal forces are
rather light. However, a couple of wraps of
silicone rubber guide-line tape around the mated
pair would keep them secured together.
But again, unless you plan to routinely open wing
wiring bundles often as a matter of normal operation,
I think I would go to considerable effort to eliminate
connectors of any kind . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com> |
I need some advice. I want to make sure my antennas are well matched to my radios
and with this in mind bought an Diamond SX20C SWR meter - recommended by a
local Ham radio shop. It seems useless with my Yaesu handheld unless I'm doing
something wrong since the cross needles barely move when I try it with the
rubber ducky antenna.
Is it going to give me useful results with a real antenna and a panel mount radio
or do I need to return this and try and get something else.
Published specs
Frequency range 3.5 - 150MHz
Input impedance 50 ohm
Power range 30w or 300w (switched)
Min power equirement 3w
The Yaesu Aviator Pilot is rated at 4w output.
Help and advice much appreciated.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
RV9A N919RV (res) Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Carling LT series of toggle switches |
Bob & listers,
I would like to use illuminated toggle switches in my RV8A project. I enjoy night
flying. I know that you feel that Carling makes a good product. I see that
B&C carries some of their products. Would the LT class of switches be suitable
for a OBAM aircraft? See:
http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf
Is there another company who might make a better and reasonably priced product
of this class?
Charlie Kuss
RV-8A cockpit systems stuff
Planning my electrical system
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Antenna tuning |
Hello Rob,
This specification: "Power range 30w or 300w (switched)" is your biggest
problem. I am assuming that you are testing your handheld with the 30 watt range
selected and even at this low setting it is way too high for accuracy in
checking a 4 watt transmitter. It is desirable to choose an instrument that has
a
measurement range such that your desired reading will fall mid scale. I would
look for a watt meter that has a 10 watt Max scale to read your 4 watt
transmitter's forward power and a lower range (perhaps 1 watt) to read reflected
power.
Unless your rubber ducky antenna is worn or damaged I would not bother to
worry about it's match. The manufacturer has chosen a best compromise length.
If you just want to check power output, a lower range meter is what you are
looking for.
I am sure Bob will have a few suggestions on meters for you to look for.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna tuning |
>
>I need some advice. I want to make sure my antennas are well matched to
>my radios and with this in mind bought an Diamond SX20C SWR meter -
>recommended by a local Ham radio shop. It seems useless with my Yaesu
>handheld unless I'm doing something wrong since the cross needles barely
>move when I try it with the rubber ducky antenna.
>Is it going to give me useful results with a real antenna and a panel
>mount radio or do I need to return this and try and get something else.
>Published specs
>Frequency range 3.5 - 150MHz
>Input impedance 50 ohm
>Power range 30w or 300w (switched)
>Min power equirement 3w
>The Yaesu Aviator Pilot is rated at 4w output.
>Help and advice much appreciated.
>Rob
>Rob W M Shipley
>RV9A N919RV (res) Fuselage
As others have noted, the operating range of the power meter
you purchased is too large for useful measurements using
the relatively small power output of aviation transmitters
for excitation. My antenna tester of choice is the MFJ
Enterprises model MFJ-259B. I've owned several of these
and find them an excellent value. Best yet, they excite the
antenna under test from an internal signal generator and
require no support from your panel mounted or hand held
equipment.
This makes the instrument quite useful for checking antenna
installations in airplanes that aren't even powered up
yet. See:
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-259B
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Carling LT series of toggle switches |
>
>Bob & listers,
> I would like to use illuminated toggle switches in my RV8A project. I
> enjoy night flying. I know that you feel that Carling makes a good
> product. I see that B&C carries some of their products. Would the LT
> class of switches be suitable for a OBAM aircraft? See:
>http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf
>Is there another company who might make a better and reasonably priced
>product of this class?
Carling is a mid-range switch . . . not up there with
the likes of Microswitch and Cutler-Hammer but
with a adequate track record of performance in
thousands of Cessnas and probably others.
I have no knowledge of any electrical or mechanical
changes that may have been made to accommodate lighting
features. You might want to purchase one of each and
do a teardown to see if the working parts are quite similar
if not identical.
To accommodate extra connections for lighting, I note that
the switches are an "extra pole" wide. This indicates
a wider than normal switch spacing possible with the non-
illuminated switches.
The up-side is that these are still toggles that are
directly replaceable with non-lighted products. Should
you find the lighted devices unsatisfactory for any reason,
you have a readily implemented plan-b as a back up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
>
>
>I'll try to address your points in order
>
>Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
>installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse per
>revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp spike of at
>least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when at 5000
>rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two graphs for
>the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and the other
>about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the leads at
>the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does I'll hook
>up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
Hmmm . . . different tach than the one I'm familiar with.
Last one I looked at was on an ultra-light hangared at
our airport. It ran the tach from ac off the "lighting coil". . .
>As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It is
>present when the radio and headphone connections are completely isolated
>from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you suggested.
>The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used nylon
>mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of the
>headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead went
>back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the 760
>intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom PTT was
>pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I have a
>Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked up to
>the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same noise through
>the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
>transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I do not
>hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise version and
>I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working pretty
>well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
>I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other planes or
>the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been inaccurate,
>prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when the
>engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at significant
>power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
"white-like"? The electronic community would define a "white noise"
as a rushing sound, not unlike a huge waterfall heard from afar. If
your noise source is related to ignition, it's a very low frequency
popping noise, perhaps one or two pulses per revolution and its
frequency goes up and down exactly tracking engine RPM.
If there is a "white-like" noise associated with this problem,
it's unlikely to be associated with the ignition system. If you
turn the alternator off, does the noise go away? Can you hear
the noise on a hand held receiver in close proximity to the airplane?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Do reporters ever get it right? |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>Interesting tid-bit from latest Avweb posing:
>
>http://www.avweb.com/newswire/9_31b/complete/185409-1.html#5e
>
>. . . I'm sitting here wondering how and "electrical failure"
>can force a landing in a high-wing, gravity fed fuel system
>aircraft.
>
>Even more bizarre is the item just below the one cited.
>Where can a pilot's head be at when an aircraft like this
>runs out of fuel?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Well, I'm not privy to any inside info, but don't you think that it's an
interesting coincidence that the gentleman had an electrical failure on
his way to OSH & the most convenient emergency landing site was the
current hot potato of the aviation world? Sure is keeping Meigs in the news.
The internet rumor about the second item is that the pilots elected not
to buy fuel at their touch-&-go airport of choice because it was cheaper
across the bay & they were paying for the fuel themselves.
Charlie
(Want to hear my top 10 reasons for choosing some flying destination
other than OSH next year?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
I just got back from the field. When I disconnected the tach leads the
noise was the same. So I guess shielding the tach wire to the EIS won't
help. I say white noise because it is a steady-state sort of noise, but it
is distinctively crackly. The volume goes up with engine rpm, the pitch
doesn't go up with rpm so much as the sound just becomes a more smoother
rasp, but louder. Pulling the circuit breaker for the alternator has no
effect. And just today I tried a handheld (totally separate, battery
powered, rubber duck) and I get a slightly different version of the same
noise - not quite as loud, but related to engine rpm in intensity and
somewhat in pitch.
Because the 760 exhibits the noise when separated from the bus, and I get
the same noise with a handheld, can I try to zero in on the source by
playing with the handheld? Should I test the 22,000 mfd smoothing
capacitor? How would I go about finding the source of the noise? Until now
I just wanted to find a work around. Now, I want to find it, and kill it.
It's beginning to cut into my good times.
Thanks,
Duncan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
> >
> >
> >I'll try to address your points in order
> >
> >Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
> >installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse per
> >revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp spike of
at
> >least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when at
5000
> >rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two graphs for
> >the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and the
other
> >about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the leads
at
> >the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does I'll
hook
> >up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
>
> Hmmm . . . different tach than the one I'm familiar with.
> Last one I looked at was on an ultra-light hangared at
> our airport. It ran the tach from ac off the "lighting coil". . .
>
>
> >As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It is
> >present when the radio and headphone connections are completely isolated
> >from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you
suggested.
> >The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used nylon
> >mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of the
> >headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead went
> >back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the 760
> >intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom PTT
was
> >pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I have a
> >Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked up to
> >the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same noise
through
> >the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
> >transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I do not
> >hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise version
and
> >I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working pretty
> >well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
>
>
> >I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other planes or
> >the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been inaccurate,
> >prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when the
> >engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at
significant
> >power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
>
> "white-like"? The electronic community would define a "white noise"
> as a rushing sound, not unlike a huge waterfall heard from afar. If
> your noise source is related to ignition, it's a very low frequency
> popping noise, perhaps one or two pulses per revolution and its
> frequency goes up and down exactly tracking engine RPM.
>
> If there is a "white-like" noise associated with this problem,
> it's unlikely to be associated with the ignition system. If you
> turn the alternator off, does the noise go away? Can you hear
> the noise on a hand held receiver in close proximity to the airplane?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sensing low coolant level |
Some comments about the e-mails below.
- My "logic", what there may be, is based on the assumption that the
radiator is lower than the engine and therefore "coolant level" in the
radiator is not a good thing to look at - rather, coolant level in the
cooling jacket/passages of the rotary engine is what is important.
- I have missed the earliest posting and so don't know if the "coolant
level" was refering to "in the engine" or "in the radiator". Sorry if I am
going off on a wrong tangent for this "thread"
Anyway, I want to point out to MikeM that bob@flyboybob should not be
dismissed yet, when he said "I suggest that you ignore the water level issue
all together. . . etc"
One thing I have learned from the FlyRotary (Mazda rotary) list is this:
When the coolant starts to drop in the cooling jacket (might be same in a
V-6 or other water-cooled auto conversion) there area right beside the
combustion chamber area - hottest area - will not be kept below the boiling
temp and the coolant will begin "nucleate boiling" (tiny steam bubbles) at
that local site and then be swept downstream and recondense as liquid.
However, the slight (or worse) boiling that does occur results in something
on the order of a 1000 to 1 expansion from liquid to vapor state and so,
volume in the closed cooling system goes up, resulting an increase in
pressure until the cap release pressure is reached, at which time coolant is
forced out of the system into the expansion tank and/or overboard (if
expansion tank is not big enough).
- Thus "pressure rise" is an early indication that boiling is taking
place - which, if the cooling system is properly designed and functioning,
is due to a decreasing coolant level, exposing hot metal to non-coolant
contact and rapid temp rise to way above boiling temp at that spot.
- The temp gage measuring temp of coolant coming out of the radiator
will not show ANY change in temp - everything is re-condensed and cooled at
that spot, but that does not mean that the hot, uncooled metal isn't causing
boiling at the "local" site by combustion chamber.
- Bob's later statement, "As soon as a leak occurs, the pressure will
drop to zero or peg at the pressure cap release pressure and you can take
action before the water actually gets low." has much merit, if you modify
and refine his scenario about "a leak". If a massive leak occured (blew a
hose), pressure would go to zero; if a slow leak occured, then the water
level would go down, exposing hot metal and causing "local" boiling. If NO
LEAK occured - rather, you simply had an inadequate cooling system (still
experimenting!) , the resulting boiling would force coolant out of the
system (not a "leak", but loss of coolant, none-the-less) - which would
reduce volume of liquid coolant in the cooling passages of engine
(increasing surface area of uncooled metal), eventually, probably over
several flights, result in increasing rates of "localized nucleate boiling"
and resulting further loss of coolant being forced out of the system, etc,
etc, until you refill your system with coolant and eliminate all air that
has now been introduced to take the place of coolant "forced out" of the
system (not "leaked out").
- This is the exact scenario Mazda rotaries experience until the system
is refined.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "MikeM" <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensing low coolant level
>
>
> > I suggest that you ignore the water level issue all together. Once the
> > water level is low it's too late, you've already cooked the goose! What
you
> > need is a water pressure gauge. Before the water level gets low, the
system
> > has to loose some H2O molecules. For this to happen, the pressure in
the
> > system must be vented somewhere. Normally the water system will operate
at
> > some pressure between ambient and the pressure cap release pressure. If
the
> > needle stays in the green between these limits, you haven't lost coolant
> > yet. As soon as a leak occurs, the pressure will drop to zero or peg at
the
> > pressure cap release pressure and you can take action before the water
> > actually gets low.
>
> Bob, I respectfully disagree!!!
>
> The PRESSURE in the cooling system has absolutely nothing to do
> with the QUANTITY of coolant in the radiator; the pressure is
> determined primarily by the TEMPERATURE, which is usually
> determined by the THERMOSTAT. Under normal operating conditions,
> the radiator cap never vents; the system pressure is lower than
> the cap's venting pressure. The pressure would stay constant as
> long as there is sufficient coolant to fill the block. The water
> pump/therostat always keeps the block/heads full of coolant,
> regardless of the coolant level in the radiator.
>
> If there is a small leak, the coolant will be forced out through
> the pinhole, with no detectable change in system pressure.
> Unless you see water droplets on the windshield, the only
> indication that this is happening would be dropping cooling
> level in the radiator, so the orginal poster has the right idea!
> Dropping level in the radiator is your first indication that
> there is leak!!!
>
> Mike Mladejovsky
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery advice |
>I currently have a Interstate Batteries U1-33 deep cycle battery
>installed. It came with the plane. It has worked very well for me, but
>I seem to have allowed an arc to form on the positive side, and melted
>the terminal. This battery is listed as a 12 volt, 33AH (20 hour rate
>to 1.75VPC). Is there a recommended size? Is more better? I'm finding
>various AHs of deep dwell batteries. This battery once gave me about
>15 starts and 7 hours of flight with all systems up and running
>following an alternator failure. I like that kind of reliability
>endurance. I seem to be prone to needing it.
I guess I'm wondering what kind of advice you're
interested in. If the battery you have has performed
in ways that you find useful or even preferable, why
not simply replace it? The Interstate site cross
referenced your cited part to an SLA1156, a 23 pound,
34 a.h. sealed lead-acid battery.
My personal preference would be to go as light
as possible while enhancing system reliability.
B&C L-40 alternators have a stellar track record
for service life and reliability. If you're not
married to a vacuum system, an SD-8 alternator
on the vacuum pump pad backs up the L-40 in case
a wire or belt breaks. The battery can be downsized
to 15 to 17 a.h. and about 15 pounds. Buy the
batteries cheap and put a new on in every year
(one alternator system) or two years (two
alternator system).
You might be able to reduce your system weight
considerably while enhancing system reliability
to a level enjoyed by no certified airplane I
know of.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
>
>
>I just got back from the field. When I disconnected the tach leads the
>noise was the same. So I guess shielding the tach wire to the EIS won't
>help.
reasonable deduction . . .
>I say white noise because it is a steady-state sort of noise, but it
>is distinctively crackly. The volume goes up with engine rpm, the pitch
>doesn't go up with rpm so much as the sound just becomes a more smoother
>rasp, but louder.
> Pulling the circuit breaker for the alternator has no
>effect.
Good data point . . .
> And just today I tried a handheld (totally separate, battery
>powered, rubber duck) and I get a slightly different version of the same
>noise - not quite as loud, but related to engine rpm in intensity and
>somewhat in pitch.
Okay, it's radiated noise. NOT conducted.
>Because the 760 exhibits the noise when separated from the bus, and I get
>the same noise with a handheld, can I try to zero in on the source by
>playing with the handheld?
That might be helpful . . .
> Should I test the 22,000 mfd smoothing
>capacitor?
If the noise is still there with the alternator off,
then it has nothing to do with the smoothing capacitor.
> How would I go about finding the source of the noise?
Do you have a fuel shut off . . . can you kill the
engine without access to ignition wires? If so, disconnect
"p-lead" wires at the engine. If noise is still there,
then something else is generating it and it's related
to engine operation. Volume goes up with RPM but not
so much in perceived pitch . . . what kind of prop do
you have. Composite? Plastic? I'm stretching here but
we might have a p-static thing. Observe prop in total
darkness and after dark adapting your eyes for ten minutes
or so . . . can you "see" the prop?
Bob . . .
> Until now
>I just wanted to find a work around. Now, I want to find it, and kill it.
>It's beginning to cut into my good times.
>
>Thanks,
>Duncan
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >I'll try to address your points in order
> > >
> > >Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
> > >installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse per
> > >revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp spike of
>at
> > >least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when at
>5000
> > >rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two graphs for
> > >the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and the
>other
> > >about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the leads
>at
> > >the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does I'll
>hook
> > >up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
> >
> > Hmmm . . . different tach than the one I'm familiar with.
> > Last one I looked at was on an ultra-light hangared at
> > our airport. It ran the tach from ac off the "lighting coil". . .
> >
> >
> > >As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It is
> > >present when the radio and headphone connections are completely isolated
> > >from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you
>suggested.
> > >The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used nylon
> > >mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of the
> > >headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead went
> > >back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the 760
> > >intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom PTT
>was
> > >pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I have a
> > >Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked up to
> > >the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same noise
>through
> > >the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
> > >transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I do not
> > >hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise version
>and
> > >I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working pretty
> > >well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
> >
> >
> > >I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other planes or
> > >the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been inaccurate,
> > >prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when the
> > >engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at
>significant
> > >power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
> >
> > "white-like"? The electronic community would define a "white noise"
> > as a rushing sound, not unlike a huge waterfall heard from afar. If
> > your noise source is related to ignition, it's a very low frequency
> > popping noise, perhaps one or two pulses per revolution and its
> > frequency goes up and down exactly tracking engine RPM.
> >
> > If there is a "white-like" noise associated with this problem,
> > it's unlikely to be associated with the ignition system. If you
> > turn the alternator off, does the noise go away? Can you hear
> > the noise on a hand held receiver in close proximity to the airplane?
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Do reporters ever get it right? |
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Interesting tid-bit from latest Avweb posing:
> >
> >http://www.avweb.com/newswire/9_31b/complete/185409-1.html#5e
> >
> >. . . I'm sitting here wondering how and "electrical failure"
> >can force a landing in a high-wing, gravity fed fuel system
> >aircraft.
> >
> >Even more bizarre is the item just below the one cited.
> >Where can a pilot's head be at when an aircraft like this
> >runs out of fuel?
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>Well, I'm not privy to any inside info, but don't you think that it's an
>interesting coincidence that the gentleman had an electrical failure on
>his way to OSH & the most convenient emergency landing site was the
>current hot potato of the aviation world? Sure is keeping Meigs in the news.
>
>The internet rumor about the second item is that the pilots elected not
>to buy fuel at their touch-&-go airport of choice because it was cheaper
>across the bay & they were paying for the fuel themselves.
>
>Charlie
>(Want to hear my top 10 reasons for choosing some flying destination
>other than OSH next year?)
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Builder documentation on the Web-summary |
Yes, VoloView Express (free, from same company that makes Autocad), is THE
cheap, useable viewer for CAD drawings. Eliminates the problem of
converting .dwg to .pds and getting poor to unreadable text in the pdf
conversion.
Some, not all, will have a problem downloading VoloView Express. The
following info on "installing VoloViewExpress" is essential if you are using
Windows ME & IE6 (a known problem) - you will get a non-lethal failure when
you download VoloView Express (free). The program will install and will
launch, but won't read files. If you have this problem, then go through the
following "fix" - a bit tedious but it works and VoloView then becomes the
"lovable" "free .dwg viewer" that you want if you don't have a CAD program
to open the files being shared.
The overview of the "fix" is: You have to replace one driver (from version
15.0.6.30) with a more recent (from version 15.0.6.50), AFTER install, and
then run a very short program to get VoloView into your Windows Registry (I
believe that is specifically what is happening, but it doesn't matter - it
works). I've passed this problem on to AutoDesk Tech Supt but don't know
if/when they will fix their "download" site.
.Here's the fix (from autodesk voloview.general newsgroup), modified by me
to be more tutorial for the less skilled (like me):
1) Make the installation - during download/install you will get 2 messages
that Regsvrac.exe made page fault in ac1st15.dll. Click OK and finish
installation. Reboot system if asked to do so by install wizard.
2) Download aclst15.dll (that is "a" "c" "el not digit 1" "s" "t" "digit
1" "5.dll") from this address:
http://adeskftp.autodesk.com/prodsupp/downloads/aclst15.dll to your
temporary directory [Desktop works]
3) Go to directory c:\Program Files\Common Files\Autodesk Shared and change
the name of aclst15.dll so it is "neutered", just add .org or .nul to it,
e.g., aclst15.dll.nul
4) Copy aclst15.dll you just downloaded in 2) to directory c:\Program
Files\Common Files\Autodesk Shared
[ to do this, go to Desktop or wherever you downloaded to, rt click the
icon, click "copy", then double click on "My Computer", C:drive, Program
Files, Common Files, and right click on Autodesk Shared icon, and click
Paste.
5) Go to DOS prompt and "change to directory" where VoloView Express is
installed, i.e., at the command prompt, type CD\"Program Files"\"Volo View
Express" (that is where it was on the Newsgroup guy and my computers), and
press Enter. (Remember to use the quote marks for "long file names").
6) Now, being at c:\Program Files\Volo View Express prompt, type
regsvrac /c aximpv.dll and press Enter [ remeber there is a space
before and after "/c"
- You should get message window saying "DHRegisterServer
asimpv.dll succeeded". If so, click OK. Then start VoloView and try
opening any drawing.
So, here's my 3rd attempt at a summary of how we can share our stuff with
each other, when not everyone has a CAD program:
1. To view CAD drawings, either 1) get a CAD program [ Turbo CAD,
Intellicad (imbedded in Airplane PDQ for $99 or from other sources), or pay
$3500 or $5000 and buy Autocad], or 2) download and fix the AutoCad
company's free viewer, Volo View Express (see above), from
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk and click Products at top left, then scroll
down to VoloView Express and click VolvoView Express 2.01 Download, then
fill in info and continue.
- To get started using this program, open a file, everything will
be too small, click on "magnify" icon and then move mouse pointer up to
magnify and down to reduce in size. Click "hand" (pan icon" and move mouse
left to look left and right to look right).
2. For converting .bmp scanned sketches to .jpg, and for reducing size of
.jpg files, download free IrfanView from http://www.irfanview.com/
and click Download 2nd from top on left side, and continue. I use this
instead of the Kodak "Viewer" which is a piece of junk as distributed on my
WinME computer - usually opens .jpg files but has little capability to do
anything else.
3. For converting Excel spreadsheets to .pdf (much simpler than "convert to
web document" which involves multiple folders and files that get saved and
trashes up your HD and readout of what's in your folders/directories), and
for converting anything else (except CAD files) into pdf (for posting to web
pages or for e-mailing to others), get "pdfFactory" (free from FinePrint
Software, LLC, www.fineprint.com and click download).
All of a sudden, I feel like I understand enough to get the job done
(documenting and sharing with other builders and getting peer reviews).
Thanks to all who have shared the above info with the rest of us.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Builder documentation on the Web-summary
>
> We use a viewer available on the Autodesk site called Voloview. The
> full program costs money ($49 until Jul 31) but there is a version
> called Voloview Express that allows viewing and printing DWG files and
> is free. We use it at our business so people without AutoCAD on their
> systems can view and print drawings. It seems to work just fine for that.
>
> I would list the correct URL, but it uses cookies and would probably not
> work. So... Go to www.autodesk.com , choose United States and then
> click on "products" in the upper left hand box. At the bottom of the
> subsequent window Voloview and Voloview Express is listed. Click on
> whichever one you are interested in and proceed. The download is 24MB
> so hopefully you have a broadband connection :-) . The latest version
> will run on Windows 98Se or better so if you are still running Windows
> 95 it won't work. I do have a previous version that works with the
> latest AutoCAD (but not the new version 2004) and Windows 95 that I
> could provide (somehow).
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> John Schroeder wrote:
>
> >
> >Terry -
> >
> >Thanks for the comments. You're right about the origin of .dxf files
being
> >AutoDesk. It is still the accepted standard and about the only way one
can
> >have a reasonable chance of getting various programs to read vector
> >drawings.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Do reporters ever get it right? |
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Interesting tid-bit from latest Avweb posing:
> >
> >http://www.avweb.com/newswire/9_31b/complete/185409-1.html#5e
> >
> >. . . I'm sitting here wondering how and "electrical failure"
> >can force a landing in a high-wing, gravity fed fuel system
> >aircraft.
> >
> >Even more bizarre is the item just below the one cited.
> >Where can a pilot's head be at when an aircraft like this
> >runs out of fuel?
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>Well, I'm not privy to any inside info, but don't you think that it's an
>interesting coincidence that the gentleman had an electrical failure on
>his way to OSH & the most convenient emergency landing site was the
>current hot potato of the aviation world? Sure is keeping Meigs in the news.
Hmmm . . . that's a possible answer . . . .
>The internet rumor about the second item is that the pilots elected not
>to buy fuel at their touch-&-go airport of choice because it was cheaper
>across the bay & they were paying for the fuel themselves.
When one figures the total cost of going to OSH for any
period of time, saving a few cents/gallon on a tank full
of fuel isn't a very strong reason for stretching it . . .
but if he was actually running out of fuel as opposed to having
an electrical failure, perhaps calling it an electrical failure
and getting on ground made for less problem with pilot
responsibilities should the feds come poking around.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
I want to pose this question to the list, in case anyone has run into
this before. I will also, of course, ask Unison about this once they
are back from O.
I noticed during a flight tonight that I was getting some noise, static
would best describe it, on my com radio. Not buzzing like high voltage
ignition, but more like random static. It is enough to break the
squelch on the Garmin 430 radio, but not the King com. It is much more
pronounced in the higher com frequencies, and hardly breaking squelch in
the lower ones. It does not map to engine rpm. However, when I turn
off the Lasar system (reverting to mags only), the noise completely goes
away. The instant the Lasar comes back on line, the static returns.
Another observation, perhaps coincidental, probably not, is that during
a hot start tonight I got what might be described as an early ignition,
not quite kicking back, but making a clunk. The Lasar fault light never
lit during times tonight when it isn't supposed to.
What I'll check is for any wiring that may have chafed and faulted,
although initial examinations didn't show anything. Also, mag case
grounds will be removed and cleaned.
Any other obvious things I've missed? Bummer, no Oshkosh tomorrow :
(
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 331 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
OK great, some stuff to try. I'll walk around with the engine at idle and
see if the handheld picks up more noise anyplace. I'll get the guys at the
field to keep me from walking into the prop... and I have a fuel shutoff
so I'll disconnect the p-leads and see about that.
The prop is a three-blade IVO lightweight, carbon over foam with the
stainless tape leading edge protectors. It was purchased new and has just
less than 70 hours, no problems with it. This is the one that has the metal
rods going down each blade that you torque to adjust the pitch. They are
torqued by cams in the hub - there could be metal working against metal but
I don't know how that wouldn't reveal itself in more evident fashion. I'll
watch it at night
Thanks,
Duncan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
> >
> >
> >I just got back from the field. When I disconnected the tach leads the
> >noise was the same. So I guess shielding the tach wire to the EIS won't
> >help.
>
> reasonable deduction . . .
>
> >I say white noise because it is a steady-state sort of noise, but it
> >is distinctively crackly. The volume goes up with engine rpm, the pitch
> >doesn't go up with rpm so much as the sound just becomes a more smoother
> >rasp, but louder.
>
>
> > Pulling the circuit breaker for the alternator has no
> >effect.
>
> Good data point . . .
>
> > And just today I tried a handheld (totally separate, battery
> >powered, rubber duck) and I get a slightly different version of the same
> >noise - not quite as loud, but related to engine rpm in intensity and
> >somewhat in pitch.
>
> Okay, it's radiated noise. NOT conducted.
>
>
> >Because the 760 exhibits the noise when separated from the bus, and I get
> >the same noise with a handheld, can I try to zero in on the source by
> >playing with the handheld?
>
> That might be helpful . . .
>
> > Should I test the 22,000 mfd smoothing
> >capacitor?
>
> If the noise is still there with the alternator off,
> then it has nothing to do with the smoothing capacitor.
>
> > How would I go about finding the source of the noise?
>
> Do you have a fuel shut off . . . can you kill the
> engine without access to ignition wires? If so, disconnect
> "p-lead" wires at the engine. If noise is still there,
> then something else is generating it and it's related
> to engine operation. Volume goes up with RPM but not
> so much in perceived pitch . . . what kind of prop do
> you have. Composite? Plastic? I'm stretching here but
> we might have a p-static thing. Observe prop in total
> darkness and after dark adapting your eyes for ten minutes
> or so . . . can you "see" the prop?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> > Until now
> >I just wanted to find a work around. Now, I want to find it, and kill
it.
> >It's beginning to cut into my good times.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Duncan
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >I'll try to address your points in order
> > > >
> > > >Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
> > > >installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse
per
> > > >revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp
spike of
> >at
> > > >least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when at
> >5000
> > > >rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two graphs
for
> > > >the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and the
> >other
> > > >about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the
leads
> >at
> > > >the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does
I'll
> >hook
> > > >up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
> > >
> > > Hmmm . . . different tach than the one I'm familiar with.
> > > Last one I looked at was on an ultra-light hangared at
> > > our airport. It ran the tach from ac off the "lighting coil". . .
> > >
> > >
> > > >As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It is
> > > >present when the radio and headphone connections are completely
isolated
> > > >from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you
> >suggested.
> > > >The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used
nylon
> > > >mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of the
> > > >headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead
went
> > > >back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the
760
> > > >intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom
PTT
> >was
> > > >pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I have
a
> > > >Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked
up to
> > > >the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same noise
> >through
> > > >the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
> > > >transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I do
not
> > > >hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise
version
> >and
> > > >I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working
pretty
> > > >well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other
planes or
> > > >the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been inaccurate,
> > > >prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when
the
> > > >engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at
> >significant
> > > >power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
> > >
> > > "white-like"? The electronic community would define a "white
noise"
> > > as a rushing sound, not unlike a huge waterfall heard from afar.
If
> > > your noise source is related to ignition, it's a very low
frequency
> > > popping noise, perhaps one or two pulses per revolution and its
> > > frequency goes up and down exactly tracking engine RPM.
> > >
> > > If there is a "white-like" noise associated with this problem,
> > > it's unlikely to be associated with the ignition system. If you
> > > turn the alternator off, does the noise go away? Can you hear
> > > the noise on a hand held receiver in close proximity to the
airplane?
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Bob . . .
>
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielding the tach lead |
Duncan,
Don't miss Bob's point about P static (P is for "precipitation static" which
in my experience is "cloud/crystal ice particles static"). Don't get hung
up on "precipitation" - just think "static electricity buildup" from prop
blades rubbing through the air and building up a charge on the blades, and
it not having a path to ground or into the plane and out the static
dischargers
- Ask the IVO prop folks or check your wiring info to see if you are
supposed to have anything akin to a "grounding strap" that will carry static
from the whirling prop to the stationary airframe (fiberglas plane or
aluminum? - I forget what you said earlier).
- In the absence of an "engineered discharge path" as above, then the
static will build up until it has enough voltage built up to jump the first
small gap it can "find" - at which point it jumps the small gap, making a
spark - and noise - and does this faster as your prop rpm increases - so is
related to rpm, but not to ignition noises, as you have correctly observed
already.
In the A-7, we had to put bonding straps in strategic places to assure an
unbroken path for static from nose to tail to stop the electricity from
jumping from one big aluminum panel to the next on its journey from nose to
tail. After that fix, we could talk to each other in a formation and to
folks on the ground when we were flying throught cirrus or stratus at 20,000
feet or so.
If you are getting this on the ground, stationary, then static discharge
wicks on the tail feathers are not going to get rid of it. If, in fact, you
are getting static discharge noise from your plastic prop, then, for test
purposes, you might have to try running a ground wire from the engine just
aft of the prop. If we are at all close to the cause, you might have to put
at least a temporary "slip ring" or "wiper" (something springy on the front
of the engine case that will rub on some metal part of the prop and give the
static a "quiet path" off the prop onto the engine case and thence to
ground.
- If that eliminates the noise, then you and the prop manufacturer will
have a prototype to the prop maker's solution to HIS noise problem.
- Or, thinking a bit more out of the box, put static discharger wicks
on each tip of the prop blades! I wonder how long they will last? And I
wonder how you can attach them without destroying or degrading the integrity
of your prop?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
> OK great, some stuff to try. I'll walk around with the engine at idle and
> see if the handheld picks up more noise anyplace. I'll get the guys at
the
> field to keep me from walking into the prop... and I have a fuel shutoff
> so I'll disconnect the p-leads and see about that.
>
> The prop is a three-blade IVO lightweight, carbon over foam with the
> stainless tape leading edge protectors. It was purchased new and has just
> less than 70 hours, no problems with it. This is the one that has the
metal
> rods going down each blade that you torque to adjust the pitch. They are
> torqued by cams in the hub - there could be metal working against metal
but
> I don't know how that wouldn't reveal itself in more evident fashion.
I'll
> watch it at night
>
> Thanks,
> Duncan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >I just got back from the field. When I disconnected the tach leads the
> > >noise was the same. So I guess shielding the tach wire to the EIS
won't
> > >help.
> >
> > reasonable deduction . . .
> >
> > >I say white noise because it is a steady-state sort of noise, but it
> > >is distinctively crackly. The volume goes up with engine rpm, the pitch
> > >doesn't go up with rpm so much as the sound just becomes a more
smoother
> > >rasp, but louder.
> >
> >
> > > Pulling the circuit breaker for the alternator has no
> > >effect.
> >
> > Good data point . . .
> >
> > > And just today I tried a handheld (totally separate, battery
> > >powered, rubber duck) and I get a slightly different version of the
same
> > >noise - not quite as loud, but related to engine rpm in intensity and
> > >somewhat in pitch.
> >
> > Okay, it's radiated noise. NOT conducted.
> >
> >
> > >Because the 760 exhibits the noise when separated from the bus, and I
get
> > >the same noise with a handheld, can I try to zero in on the source by
> > >playing with the handheld?
> >
> > That might be helpful . . .
> >
> > > Should I test the 22,000 mfd smoothing
> > >capacitor?
> >
> > If the noise is still there with the alternator off,
> > then it has nothing to do with the smoothing capacitor.
> >
> > > How would I go about finding the source of the noise?
> >
> > Do you have a fuel shut off . . . can you kill the
> > engine without access to ignition wires? If so, disconnect
> > "p-lead" wires at the engine. If noise is still there,
> > then something else is generating it and it's related
> > to engine operation. Volume goes up with RPM but not
> > so much in perceived pitch . . . what kind of prop do
> > you have. Composite? Plastic? I'm stretching here but
> > we might have a p-static thing. Observe prop in total
> > darkness and after dark adapting your eyes for ten minutes
> > or so . . . can you "see" the prop?
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > > Until now
> > >I just wanted to find a work around. Now, I want to find it, and kill
> it.
> > >It's beginning to cut into my good times.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Duncan
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >I'll try to address your points in order
> > > > >
> > > > >Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
> > > > >installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse
> per
> > > > >revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp
> spike of
> > >at
> > > > >least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when
at
> > >5000
> > > > >rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two
graphs
> for
> > > > >the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and
the
> > >other
> > > > >about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the
> leads
> > >at
> > > > >the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does
> I'll
> > >hook
> > > > >up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm . . . different tach than the one I'm familiar with.
> > > > Last one I looked at was on an ultra-light hangared at
> > > > our airport. It ran the tach from ac off the "lighting coil". .
.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It
is
> > > > >present when the radio and headphone connections are completely
> isolated
> > > > >from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you
> > >suggested.
> > > > >The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used
> nylon
> > > > >mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of
the
> > > > >headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead
> went
> > > > >back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the
> 760
> > > > >intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom
> PTT
> > >was
> > > > >pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I
have
> a
> > > > >Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked
> up to
> > > > >the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same
noise
> > >through
> > > > >the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
> > > > >transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I
do
> not
> > > > >hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise
> version
> > >and
> > > > >I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working
> pretty
> > > > >well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other
> planes or
> > > > >the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been
inaccurate,
> > > > >prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when
> the
> > > > >engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at
> > >significant
> > > > >power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
> > > >
> > > > "white-like"? The electronic community would define a "white
> noise"
> > > > as a rushing sound, not unlike a huge waterfall heard from afar.
> If
> > > > your noise source is related to ignition, it's a very low
> frequency
> > > > popping noise, perhaps one or two pulses per revolution and its
> > > > frequency goes up and down exactly tracking engine RPM.
> > > >
> > > > If there is a "white-like" noise associated with this problem,
> > > > it's unlikely to be associated with the ignition system. If you
> > > > turn the alternator off, does the noise go away? Can you hear
> > > > the noise on a hand held receiver in close proximity to the
> airplane?
> > > >
> > > > Bob . . .
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> > ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> > ( and still understand nothing. )
> > ( C.F. Kettering )
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
"aeroelectric-list"
| Subject: | Matt's e-mail servers down between 17:13 & 20:09? |
It got really quiet on the RV-list and Aeroelectric list between 17:13 & 20:09C.
I got nothing from either list during that time and the Matronics website
was unreachable.
- As a double trouble item, I also couldn't receive test e-mails I sent to
myself during the time 17:12-19:08 (when I received a FlyRotary e-mail). SBC
DSL declined to accept any responsibility - but nothing was getting to my local
e-mail ISP - he declined to believe he had a problem.
When I finally started getting e-mails, my thing about "Documentation", which was
sent at 17:23, showed 20:17 when it arrived, almost a 3 hour delay.
I didn't have a phone number to call Matt to let him know. Anyone have a ph number
for future ref?
David Carter
________________________________________________________________________________
"aeroelectric-list"
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: Matt's e-mail servers down between 17:13 |
& 20:09?
The ISP for Matronics had an unscheduled "service outage" between those
hours that effected "most of Northern California". From their recorded
message, it was unclear if the outage was related to their network
equipment or something larger like a backbone service provider. In any
case, your times are just about right.
I did notice the outage as soon as it occurred, but there wasn't much I
could do to get the word out about it at that point... :-)
Matt Dralle
List Admin
At 08:59 PM 8/2/2003 Saturday, David Carter wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter"
>
>It got really quiet on the RV-list and Aeroelectric list between 17:13 &
>20:09C. I got nothing from either list during that time and the
>Matronics website was unreachable.
> - As a double trouble item, I also couldn't receive test e-mails I
> sent to myself during the time 17:12-19:08 (when I received a FlyRotary
> e-mail). SBC DSL declined to accept any responsibility - but nothing was
> getting to my local e-mail ISP - he declined to believe he had a problem.
>
>When I finally started getting e-mails, my thing about "Documentation",
>which was sent at 17:23, showed 20:17 when it arrived, almost a 3 hour delay.
>
>I didn't have a phone number to call Matt to let him know. Anyone have a
>ph number for future ref?
>
>David Carter
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Denny" <dennymortensen(at)cableone.net> |
Just a thought a rubber duck is a terrible antenna and would of course have
no ground plane. Some radios will automatically cut back on output power if
operating into a high SWR. maybe this is what is happening and your radio is
just cutting the power back to low to fully load the meter. I would try it
with a regular antenna before scraping the idea.
Denny Mortensen
dennymortensen(at)cableone.net
Cozy MKIV #1145
Just starting
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob W
M Shipley
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna tuning
I need some advice. I want to make sure my antennas are well matched to my
radios and with this in mind bought an Diamond SX20C SWR meter - recommended
by a local Ham radio shop. It seems useless with my Yaesu handheld unless
I'm doing something wrong since the cross needles barely move when I try it
with the rubber ducky antenna.
Is it going to give me useful results with a real antenna and a panel mount
radio or do I need to return this and try and get something else.
Published specs
Frequency range 3.5 - 150MHz
Input impedance 50 ohm
Power range 30w or 300w (switched)
Min power equirement 3w
The Yaesu Aviator Pilot is rated at 4w output.
Help and advice much appreciated.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
RV9A N919RV (res) Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer |
Bob, any ideas about a cheap/easy solution to the problem of leaving the
master on and running down the battery? I just did it today, and it's a pain in
th posterior. Like many homebuilts, my RV-8A has toggle switches for the
master and L mag/elect. ignition, so it's easy to forgot to flip the master off
(for me at least).
Avtek has a nice unit called the "1st Alert" but it's kinda pricy at $160.
It's main job is to alert you to a bad alternator, broken alternator belt, etc.,
but any negative flow from the battery makes the panel light flash.
Another question is do you have any suggestions or recommendations for an
externally mounted power plug to be used to jump start an a/c with low battery?
Walt Shipley RV-8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miles Simon" <Simon.Miles(at)skynet.be> |
| Subject: | Cell phone interference with avionics. |
The U.K. C.A.A. have published the results of their experiments of the
effects of cell phone usage on avionics in aircraft. The report is at :
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_03.PDF
In summary, the report says that cell phones do affect avionics.
Simon Miles,
Europa XS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | Shielding the tach lead |
Duncan,
Is your prop the in flight adjustable version IVO prop? If so you could use
a S700-2-70 DPDT (on)-on-(on) switch and wire both leads to ground in the
center position. This would give you a positive ground for the prop at all
times. You might try opening the prop circuit breaker and grounding both
prop brushes directly to the engine. If this eliminates the noise then you
could proceed to getting the S700-2-70 switch installed. If your prop is
only ground adjustable and your testing tells you this is a static problem
you could order one slip ring/brush set form IVO and set up a prop ground by
using half of the in flight adjustable prop's electrical slip ring set and
connect it to ground.
Happy hunting, hope you kill this one soon!
Regards,
Bob Lee
______________________________
N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
91% done only 51% to go!
Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
mailto:bob(at)flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of David
Carter
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
Duncan,
Don't miss Bob's point about P static (P is for "precipitation static" which
in my experience is "cloud/crystal ice particles static"). Don't get hung
up on "precipitation" - just think "static electricity buildup" from prop
blades rubbing through the air and building up a charge on the blades, and
it not having a path to ground or into the plane and out the static
dischargers
- Ask the IVO prop folks or check your wiring info to see if you are
supposed to have anything akin to a "grounding strap" that will carry static
from the whirling prop to the stationary airframe (fiberglas plane or
aluminum? - I forget what you said earlier).
- In the absence of an "engineered discharge path" as above, then the
static will build up until it has enough voltage built up to jump the first
small gap it can "find" - at which point it jumps the small gap, making a
spark - and noise - and does this faster as your prop rpm increases - so is
related to rpm, but not to ignition noises, as you have correctly observed
already.
In the A-7, we had to put bonding straps in strategic places to assure an
unbroken path for static from nose to tail to stop the electricity from
jumping from one big aluminum panel to the next on its journey from nose to
tail. After that fix, we could talk to each other in a formation and to
folks on the ground when we were flying throught cirrus or stratus at 20,000
feet or so.
If you are getting this on the ground, stationary, then static discharge
wicks on the tail feathers are not going to get rid of it. If, in fact, you
are getting static discharge noise from your plastic prop, then, for test
purposes, you might have to try running a ground wire from the engine just
aft of the prop. If we are at all close to the cause, you might have to put
at least a temporary "slip ring" or "wiper" (something springy on the front
of the engine case that will rub on some metal part of the prop and give the
static a "quiet path" off the prop onto the engine case and thence to
ground.
- If that eliminates the noise, then you and the prop manufacturer will
have a prototype to the prop maker's solution to HIS noise problem.
- Or, thinking a bit more out of the box, put static discharger wicks
on each tip of the prop blades! I wonder how long they will last? And I
wonder how you can attach them without destroying or degrading the integrity
of your prop?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
> OK great, some stuff to try. I'll walk around with the engine at idle and
> see if the handheld picks up more noise anyplace. I'll get the guys at
the
> field to keep me from walking into the prop... and I have a fuel shutoff
> so I'll disconnect the p-leads and see about that.
>
> The prop is a three-blade IVO lightweight, carbon over foam with the
> stainless tape leading edge protectors. It was purchased new and has just
> less than 70 hours, no problems with it. This is the one that has the
metal
> rods going down each blade that you torque to adjust the pitch. They are
> torqued by cams in the hub - there could be metal working against metal
but
> I don't know how that wouldn't reveal itself in more evident fashion.
I'll
> watch it at night
>
> Thanks,
> Duncan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >I just got back from the field. When I disconnected the tach leads the
> > >noise was the same. So I guess shielding the tach wire to the EIS
won't
> > >help.
> >
> > reasonable deduction . . .
> >
> > >I say white noise because it is a steady-state sort of noise, but it
> > >is distinctively crackly. The volume goes up with engine rpm, the pitch
> > >doesn't go up with rpm so much as the sound just becomes a more
smoother
> > >rasp, but louder.
> >
> >
> > > Pulling the circuit breaker for the alternator has no
> > >effect.
> >
> > Good data point . . .
> >
> > > And just today I tried a handheld (totally separate, battery
> > >powered, rubber duck) and I get a slightly different version of the
same
> > >noise - not quite as loud, but related to engine rpm in intensity and
> > >somewhat in pitch.
> >
> > Okay, it's radiated noise. NOT conducted.
> >
> >
> > >Because the 760 exhibits the noise when separated from the bus, and I
get
> > >the same noise with a handheld, can I try to zero in on the source by
> > >playing with the handheld?
> >
> > That might be helpful . . .
> >
> > > Should I test the 22,000 mfd smoothing
> > >capacitor?
> >
> > If the noise is still there with the alternator off,
> > then it has nothing to do with the smoothing capacitor.
> >
> > > How would I go about finding the source of the noise?
> >
> > Do you have a fuel shut off . . . can you kill the
> > engine without access to ignition wires? If so, disconnect
> > "p-lead" wires at the engine. If noise is still there,
> > then something else is generating it and it's related
> > to engine operation. Volume goes up with RPM but not
> > so much in perceived pitch . . . what kind of prop do
> > you have. Composite? Plastic? I'm stretching here but
> > we might have a p-static thing. Observe prop in total
> > darkness and after dark adapting your eyes for ten minutes
> > or so . . . can you "see" the prop?
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > > Until now
> > >I just wanted to find a work around. Now, I want to find it, and kill
> it.
> > >It's beginning to cut into my good times.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Duncan
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielding the tach lead
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >I'll try to address your points in order
> > > > >
> > > > >Sine wave low frequency tach signal? I'm looking at the Rotax 912
> > > > >installation manual and the specs for the rev-counter are one pulse
> per
> > > > >revolution. The graphs on the documentation show a pretty sharp
> spike of
> > >at
> > > > >least 5 volts at a load of 100 ohms and 75 volts at 100 kohms when
at
> > >5000
> > > > >rpm. The German translation is a little vague - there are two
graphs
> for
> > > > >the 6000rpm oscillograms - one shows peak voltage at about 7V and
the
> > >other
> > > > >about 75V. Who knows? I thought I would at least disconnect the
> leads
> > >at
> > > > >the engine, fire it up and see if the noise goes away. If it does
> I'll
> > >hook
> > > > >up some shielded wire (or bolt up some conduit, what the hell)
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm . . . different tach than the one I'm familiar with.
> > > > Last one I looked at was on an ultra-light hangared at
> > > > our airport. It ran the tach from ac off the "lighting coil". .
.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >As to who is hearing the noise, I am in my headphones for sure. It
is
> > > > >present when the radio and headphone connections are completely
> isolated
> > > > >from the aircraft and the radio is powered with a battery as you
> > >suggested.
> > > > >The 760 is grounded through the panel mounting screws, so I used
> nylon
> > > > >mounting screws and confirmed that it was not grounded. None of
the
> > > > >headphone jacks or PTT leads were grounded, and the PTT switch lead
> went
> > > > >back to the test battery, not the aircraft ground. When I had the
> 760
> > > > >intercom feature hooked up, I did hear the noise when the intercom
> PTT
> > >was
> > > > >pushed, so the problem is not exclusive to transmitting. Now I
have
> a
> > > > >Sigtronics Portable (powered by the internal 9-volt battery) hooked
> up to
> > > > >the 760. When the transmit PTT is pushed I hear the very same
noise
> > >through
> > > > >the intercom, whether it is turned on or not. However, when not
> > > > >transmitting and just the VOX squelch is broken on the intercom, I
do
> not
> > > > >hear the noise. I had the intercom converted to the high noise
> version
> > >and
> > > > >I'm using Oregon Aero mic muffs on the headsets - this is working
> pretty
> > > > >well, though the Twinstar cockpit is pretty noisy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >I once thought that only I was hearing the noise and that other
> planes or
> > > > >the ground were not hearing it. That seems to have been
inaccurate,
> > > > >prompted by the report of a pilot who heard me in the pattern when
> the
> > > > >engine was idling. Subsequent tests confirm the transmission at
> > >significant
> > > > >power settings includes the raspy white-like noise.
> > > >
> > > > "white-like"? The electronic community would define a "white
> noise"
> > > > as a rushing sound, not unlike a huge waterfall heard from afar.
> If
> > > > your noise source is related to ignition, it's a very low
> frequency
> > > > popping noise, perhaps one or two pulses per revolution and its
> > > > frequency goes up and down exactly tracking engine RPM.
> > > >
> > > > If there is a "white-like" noise associated with this problem,
> > > > it's unlikely to be associated with the ignition system. If you
> > > > turn the alternator off, does the noise go away? Can you hear
> > > > the noise on a hand held receiver in close proximity to the
> airplane?
> > > >
> > > > Bob . . .
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> > ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> > ( and still understand nothing. )
> > ( C.F. Kettering )
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax regulator question |
Bob,
Thanks again for all your answers about the Rotax rectifier-regulator.
I understand it is a standard design.
Here is a question that has been nagging me :
There have been insistant rumors in our area about destroying the
regulator by disconnecting it from the battery while the engine is
running.
Our project is wired according to fig Z16 (out of memory), with dual
batteries and ABMM, and includes a 22000 F capacitor.
COULD switching off the the master switch do any harm to the
regulator ? Same thing for the operation of the over voltage crowbar
protection ?
Or can the presence of the capacitor provide some means of protection ?
Thank you,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
Walt Hi!
> Another question is do you have any suggestions or recommendations for an
> externally mounted power plug to be used to jump start an a/c with low
> battery?
I've fitted a Aux. Power on port side of Aircraft viewable from P1 seat.
It's from a Race Car shop. Based around lightweight Plastic Socket with
matching input Plug with pullout handle. 2 versions. 50A and 175 Amp
Will carry 'jump' leads in A/C so whenever onboard power feels lazy I can
get a jump start from just about any 12V device. I went for 50Amp.
Cost about $25 for 50A and $40 for 175A
In an effort to keep it simple I positioned to clearly see connections still
made to outside world and in fact can reach forward and disconnect from
Cabin.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland(at)onetel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Herbert Schmaderer" <herbert.schmaderer(at)aon.at> |
Good morning friends!
I am new to this forum and seek the expertise of this group. I own a Pulsar kitplane
with conventional instrumentaion. In a planed redesign I would like to fit
modern electronic EFIS and EIS to the panel. Any suggestins regarding product
and sources at reasonable prices?
regards
Herbert
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer |
Hello Walt,
You could use an oil pressure switch for a "nag" buzzer, that would sound
when the engine is off (i.e. low oil pressure) and the master is on. Trouble
is, in its most simple form, it would sound when you first switch on the
master and before you start the engine, which would be tiresome, especially
if you like to get clearances, ATIS, etc before you start the engine. You
could get round that, if you have a master bus / essential bus kind of
system, by putting it on the master bus and powering radios temporarily
(which, presumably are on the ess. bus) by using the ess. bus. alt. feed
switch.
It's still a bit of a drag though, but it is simple.
Better yet would be a small electronic circuit that would only power up when
the engine was first started, and then trigger the alarm next time it was
stopped. I'm sure it would be a simple circuit (don't ask me what it would
be though!). Perhaps, if there's enough interest in such a project, Bob
might be persuaded to manufacture and sell a circuit board as he did with the
audio isolator, or produce a circuit design.
Re the ground power plug. I've decided to go with a "Piper" type of socket.
You can get them cheaply from Aircraft Spruce, and I figure that every
airfield on the planet has that kind of connector on its GPU. You can buy a
matching plug for use at your own hangar.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: <RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer
July 25, 2003 - August 03, 2003
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cg