AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ck
August 31, 2003 - September 12, 2003
> cents. What inflation rate did you use over that period, I gather it was
> 4.22%??? Where did you get that figure? Was it on a public website? If it
> was I'd love to see it.
>
> jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Aucountry(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OBAM vs. Certified thread
>
>
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 08/28/03 10:07:34 PM, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> >
> >
> > > He's got that right.=A0 Check out the inflation
> > > calculators on the 'net.=A0 One that I use suggests
> > > that gasoline I used to pay $0.40/gallon for in 1960
> > > is CHEAPER today than it was back then. Had $0.40
> > > gas grown at the rate of inflation, it would cost
> > > $2.37/gallon today.
> > >
> >
> > Gas here in California is $2.15 for cheap stations and up to $2.95 for
> full
> > serve.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ageless Wings" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | OBAM vs. Certified thread |
I used the loan calculator in Quicken ... $0.40 for 43 years, at 4% is
indeed $2.16.
Looks like gas is just catching up! Although, I remember paying as low as
..25 a gallon to fill up my '53 Buick on my graduation night in 1960.
Harley
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>> Jeffrey
>> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 12:34 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OBAM vs. Certified thread
>>
>>
>>
>> For 43 years at a 4% average inflation rate over that period I get $2.16
>> cents. What inflation rate did you use over that period, I gather it was
>> 4.22%??? Where did you get that figure? Was it on a public
>> website? If it
>> was I'd love to see it.
>>
>> jeff
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <Aucountry(at)aol.com>
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OBAM vs. Certified thread
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 08/28/03 10:07:34 PM, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>> >
>> >
>> > > He's got that right.=A0 Check out the inflation
>> > > calculators on the 'net.=A0 One that I use suggests
>> > > that gasoline I used to pay $0.40/gallon for in 1960
>> > > is CHEAPER today than it was back then. Had $0.40
>> > > gas grown at the rate of inflation, it would cost
>> > > $2.37/gallon today.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Gas here in California is $2.15 for cheap stations and up to $2.95 for
>> full
>> > serve.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n3eu(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | OBAM vs. Certified thread |
An actual gubment inflation calculator is at:
http://minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm
I worked at a gas station in 1962 and remember cost of regular of
about .32/gal and varied little, unlike today. That's then $1.95 in 2003.
F--
>
>
> I used the loan calculator in Quicken ... $0.40 for 43 years, at 4% is
> indeed $2.16.
> Looks like gas is just catching up! Although, I remember paying as low as
> ..25 a gallon to fill up my '53 Buick on my graduation night in 1960.
>
>
> Harley
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> >> Jeffrey
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 12:34 AM
> >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OBAM vs. Certified thread
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For 43 years at a 4% average inflation rate over that period I get $2.16
> >> cents. What inflation rate did you use over that period, I gather it was
> >> 4.22%??? Where did you get that figure? Was it on a public
> >> website? If it
> >> was I'd love to see it.
> >>
> >> jeff
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <Aucountry(at)aol.com>
> >> To:
> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OBAM vs. Certified thread
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In a message dated 08/28/03 10:07:34 PM, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > He's got that right.=A0 Check out the inflation
> >> > > calculators on the 'net.=A0 One that I use suggests
> >> > > that gasoline I used to pay $0.40/gallon for in 1960
> >> > > is CHEAPER today than it was back then. Had $0.40
> >> > > gas grown at the rate of inflation, it would cost
> >> > > $2.37/gallon today.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Gas here in California is $2.15 for cheap stations and up to $2.95 for
> >> full
> >> > serve.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread |
>
>For 43 years at a 4% average inflation rate over that period I get $2.16
>cents. What inflation rate did you use over that period, I gather it was
>4.22%??? Where did you get that figure? Was it on a public website? If it
>was I'd love to see it.
Here's the site. It doesn't calculate based on a fixed average
rate but on empirical data. For example, $1.00 item in 1960
costs $100.00 in 1960 costs only 101.60 in 1961. $100.00
in 1975 jumps to $109.10% for 1976!!!! That was one of the
years we were taxing ourselves to prosperity. I bought my mom
a house about that time. Best mortgage I could get was 14%.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: split rocker and "spikes" |
>
>Comments/Questions: concerns about voltage spikes and split master
>switch. Which is worse, starting aircraft engines with alternator field
>energized, or energizing the field after the engine is running???
If there is any difference, it's insignificant and
not worth worrying about. I'd have no problem cranking
the engine with the alternator already on. "Spikes"
for the most part do not exist in any way that warrants
concern.
The split rocker is expensive, not particularly
long lived and doesn't match any other switch in
the panel. If you haven't already mounted it, I'd
suggest that it never get mounted. See articles
on aeroelectric.com for more on switches, switch
ratings, and other documents I think you'll find
useful.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 10751 Kennedy |
>et
>Comments/Questions: Recently purchased RV-6 built at G Orndorff's
>facility. Hope to fly IFR. All electric plane - B&C electrical system
>(single battery and alternator); Dynon EFIS
>turn coordinator; and IFR GPS. Plan to add: 1) Trutrak A/P; 2) Nav/Com
>(VOR, localizer, G/S); and 3) stormscope.
> Need assistance with planning redundancy to allow for safe exit from
> IMC under various possible failure scenarios. Other factors to consider:
> 1) weight penalty of possible solutions; and 2) hand-held Garmin GPS 196
> with HSI display can be carried with spare batteries. My questions: 1)
> dual batteries?; 2) dual alternators?; 3) install vacuum system and
> instruments?; and 4) install electric AI separate from Dynon EFIS. Have
> commercial cert with instrument rating; 1600 hours. Thank you for any
> suggestions.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Well considered and technically elegant answers to
all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also,
check out the downloadable materials at
http://www.aeroelectric.com
It would be much better that you craft decisions based
on an understanding of goals, materials and architectures
than to go with a consensus of opinions no matter who
offers them.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bulkhead adapter for GPS antenna |
firewall pass-through
>
>Bob, et al,
>
>I'm wiring my GPS antenna, for which I've built a little shelf on the
>firewall of my RV-7. As you can see in this photo...
>
>http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030830_bulkhead_location.jpg
>
>...the antenna wire will pass through the firewall roughly where the X is
>marked. I could run one continuous wire of RG-400 all the way to the
>antenna, but what I would *much prefer* to do is use a bulkhead connector
>like this one:
>
>http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030830_bulkhead_connector.jpg
>
>The reason I prefer that is because then I have the option of removing the
>antenna from the firewall at some point, and I won't have this dangling coax
>out there. I would have a short jumper from the firewall to the antenna.
>
>My questions are:
>
>1) If I use such a connector through the firewall, does the fact that the
>connector body is in direct contact with the firewall (ground) play any part
>in the equation? I presume not, but I wanted to ask.
no
>2) Other than the obvious potential issue of introducing more possible
>failure spots (two more connections) into the system, is there any
>possibility of signal degradation by using the connector as opposed to a
>continuous coax wire?
very few and none that are significant
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Unstable charging system . . . |
Subject: Re: Unstable charging system . . .
A couple of things to update you on:
You had asked in the past about fuse or circuit breaker,
and I do have a 35AMP circuit breaker.
I was wondering about your field supply line. If you
have a 35A breaker (this would be the b-lead breaker
on the bus) there should also be a 3 to 5A breaker
for alternator field supply. Since this breaker is
in series with the alternator control switch, it too
can contribute to the loop resistance that gives
rise to your observed alternator instability.
. . . . . I have been cleaning
and buffing the copper bus connections, and the ring terminal
connection from the alternator B terminal. I was looking
at the switch again, cleaning up those terminals, and did
find a suspicious ring terminal from the alternator F.
It was replaced. I cleaned up the terminals at the starter
relay S and Ammeter lines, and did another test run.
Still no change.
The problem WILL NOT be in any wiring or components
associated with the b-lead connections that deliver
power to the bus . . .
I am ready to rewire the whole system, but my worry is it
will still do the same thing if I can't check the switches
and circuit breaker accurately.
Just put in new alternator field breaker and new
split rocker and if you like, renew all the wires between
alternator field breaker and the A/S terminals on
the regulator. The problem will go away for another
10-40 years.
In on of you past e-mail you wrote about an LP3, what is that?
I guess if I'm going to do all this redo I would like to consider
anything that might add longevity to this system instead of
this relatively short run on this try.
This is a regulator (LR-3) designed for the OBAM market and
has been successfully installed on hundreds of
certified ship via 337. However, the system you have
is quite capable of satisfactory performance. It's just
getting long in the tooth and needs a Saturday afternoon's
dose of attention.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Aucountry(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: split rocker and "spikes" |
In a message dated 08/31/03 08:55:39 AM, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
> The split rocker is expensive, not particularly
> long lived and doesn't match any other switch in
> the panel. If you haven't already mounted it, I'd
> suggest that it never get mounted. See articles
> on aeroelectric.com for more on switches, switch
> ratings, and other documents I think you'll find
>=A0 useful.
>
>
Since the production plane I have has a split rocker, it never occurred to me
that it isn't really needed. To be honest, 99% of the time I switch them on
together. About the only time I don't is when I just want to turn on a
Radio.
The new Tiger has a radio that is wired to directly to the battery (though a
fuse) to allow for using the radio on the ground without going through the
master switch. Interestingly enough, it's paralleled to an avionics master
switch so it comes on with the avionics master as well.
Gary
www.AuCountry.com
Home of "Team Grumman"
TeamGrumman-List(at)matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Well, now that you're sitting on 800, how about turning loose some to
>us?
Okay, been up to my eyeballs in sheetrock repairs and painting
for the garage/shop remodeling job. It's gonna be nice!
The tests finished. The studs were added to our website
catalog a few minutes ago at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread |
Type "Consumer Price Index" into Google and get the CPI calculator. Handy little
page.
Also for an amazing view of where we are. Check the Tandy 1989 computer at:
www.periheliondesign.com/tandy1989.pdf
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jimk36(at)comcast.net> |
Please ignore.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread |
In a message dated 8/31/2003 4:27:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
harley(at)AgelessWings.com writes:
> $0.40 for 43 years, at 4% is
> indeed $2.16.
> Looks like gas is just catching up! Although, I remember paying as low as
> ..25 a gallon to fill up my '53 Buick on my graduation night in 1960.
An I remember paying as little as 0.19 in the 60's in MO.
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | LED Panel Lights |
Hi all,
I'm working on a panel lighting project and am looking for some input.
I fly a Q2 which, for a seatback, has a full height bulkhead and full
canopy. I would like to install two LED clusters in this seatback
bulkhead that shine on the panel. I don't have individually lighted
gauges and don't plan to install post lights. So, with that in mind:
I have searched for LED clusters I have found these units
(http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=91&prrf
nbr=4151&cgrfnbr=501&ctgys=) from Jameco (Jameco #150922). They don't
provide any beam width information, of course.
I don't mind fabricating my own mount and/or my own LED cluster.
Wondering if anyone has already done this and has tips that could save
the next person (me!) some time??
Thanks,
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 455 Hrs. TT - 3 Hrs Engine
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
List,
As I'm getting close to cutting out my panel (again) I'm getting nervous and need
confirmation of some things I am only95% sure ofon Figure Z-11: Could you please
confirm?
1) Grounding: Even though Iam buildingan aircraft with a steel tube fuselage I
am planning on running a separate ground cable from instrument panel ground bus
directly to the battery. Am I interpreting the drawing properly? The cable isn't
shown on the drawings I can find implications of not needing it in The Connection
chapters but I can also find implications that is the most important
cable in the aircraft (obviously it would be for a composite)
2) The alternatorFIELDbreakergoeson the panel and the alternatorOUTPUT cirquit
protection (probably fusible link in my case)goes near the starter contactor,
correct?
3) When would one want to pull the alternator field breaker to run on battery only?
Thanks,
Grant Krueger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
Forgot one question I know it seems really dumb but I'd feel better hearing the
answer I'm 99% sure of.
I'm unclear about the starter switch on the panel: The way Z-11 is drawn the starter
is energized by a spring loaded toggle mag switch.That's whatI'm planning
on. I've been confused though bytalk ofpush button starters. I know they are
an option for those who like them but are they a requirement ( the spring loaded
toggle switch only allows current to flow to the push button starter)?
Thanks again,
Grant
MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | System feedpoint for alternator power. |
>Comments/Questions: What is correct place to connect the charging line in
>an electrical system?
>
>Some say it must go to the starter relay connector, others say it must go
>to the main bus directly, I've also seen it going to the batt relay, on
>either side.
>
>What is correct? or what is the purpose of one or the other?
All of the suggested versions will function. I prefer
to connect the alternator to the battery through the
shortest possible length of fat wire and if possible
by adding the least amount of wire. If your battery is
on the firewall, then the b-lead fuse can be tied
to either the starter contactor or bus side of battery
master.
If your battery is behind seat, then the starter
contactor is the best choice.
There is NO reason whatsoever that the alternator
should be wired to the main bus a-la spam-cans of
the past 55+ years. This was a ringer from the
beginning.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Well considered and technically elegant answers to
all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also,
check out the downloadable materials at
http://www.aeroelectric.com
It would be much better that you craft decisions based
on an understanding of goals, materials and architectures
than to go with a consensus of opinions no matter who
offers them.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | DIY audio project |
>Comments/Questions: Regarding DIY audio mixer amp:
>Is the circuit board for the mono or stereo?
both. for mono you leave of one of the amplifier
chips and install a jumper between two pins of the
missing chip.
>I found PCB Express, but don't understand what the "artwork" is; I can't
>open a .*.pcb file (from the link you provide). Can they make the board for me?
You have do download their ECB drawing program and
install it on your PC. Then, you open the .pcb file
and use their program to order boards.
You can order a board from the AeroElectric Connection
for $20. Unless you're prepared to order 3 to 6 boards
at once and share costs with others, the most economical
approach would be ordering from us.
>Is there a substitute for the A103-ND 16-DIP Header? DigiKey has these
>backordered. Thanks!
Hmmmm . . . yeah, lots of folks make these . . . but you
wouldn't want to place an order for just that one part.
Between minimum $ for ordering plus shipping, that little
part becomes pretty expensive. How long before Digikey
can ship, do they say?
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | DIY audio project |
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
> >Is there a substitute for the A103-ND 16-DIP Header? DigiKey
> >has these backordered. Thanks!
>
> Hmmmm . . . yeah, lots of folks make these . . . but you
> wouldn't want to place an order for just that one part.
> Between minimum $ for ordering plus shipping, that little
> part becomes pretty expensive. How long before Digikey
> can ship, do they say?
They have 103 of the 18-pin version in stock if you care to Dremel or hacksaw one
pair of pins off (A133-ND).
Or you can just get a regular 16-pin DIP socket (such as A9416-ND) and insert the
resistor leads into that...
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Panel Lights |
>
>Hi all,
>
>I'm working on a panel lighting project and am looking for some input.
>
>I fly a Q2 which, for a seatback, has a full height bulkhead and full
>canopy. I would like to install two LED clusters in this seatback
>bulkhead that shine on the panel. I don't have individually lighted
>gauges and don't plan to install post lights. So, with that in mind:
>
>I have searched for LED clusters I have found these units
>(http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=91&prrf
>nbr=4151&cgrfnbr=501&ctgys=) from Jameco (Jameco #150922). They don't
>provide any beam width information, of course.
>
>I don't mind fabricating my own mount and/or my own LED cluster.
>Wondering if anyone has already done this and has tips that could save
>the next person (me!) some time??
Sure . . . and it's easy. For an overhead flood, you probably
don't want someone else's idea of what a "cluster" of
LEDs is supposed to do. When you get one of the prefab
assy leds pointed the right way, you'll be lucky if more
than one of the remaining LEDs points where you want it.
I've built LED replacements for the overhead flood
in high wing ships like a Cessna using at most 4 and usually
only 3, hi-intensity red LEDs. Three lamps in series can
be powered from 12v with a 180 ohm resistor to limit current.
Just jury-rig a means for holding the lamps and positioning
them for best uniformity across the panel. Once you've decided
how many lamps and where they need to point, you can work
on hardening up the mounting for permanent installation.
Some builders have designed overhead floods to run from
an array of 9v alkaline batteries. For no more often than
you'll need panel lighting, three alkaline batteries will
give you approximately 30 hours of high intensity lighting
and 50-60 low intensity lighting. This would make your
panel lighting totally independent of ship's power.
If you want to work with white lights, use only 2
in series per 180 ohm resistor. Count on four lights
total, two separate strings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dumb Questions |
> 1) Grounding: Even though Iam buildingan aircraft with a steel tube
fuselage I am planning on running a separate ground cable from instrument
panel ground bus directly to the battery.
correct
> 2) The alternatorFIELDbreakergoeson the panel and the alternatorOUTPUT
cirquit protection (probably fusible link in my case)goes near the starter
contactor, correct?
fuselink for 40 Amps, I doubt, the fuse goes as close a spossible to the
alternator, which might in this case be on the firewall close to the
starter contactor.
>
> 3) When would one want to pull the alternator field breaker to run on
battery only?
if you want to shutdown the alternator you pull the breaker, this could be
for test reason, or if you supsect the OV did not work or ..... and the
breaker is also triggered from the OV module.
Hope it helpes
Werner (waiting for papers to go flying)
________________________________________________________________________________
Can someone tell me if M22759/16 aircraft wire is the same as Mil-W-22759/16
aircraft wire? I found the former on the web at a significanty less cost
than the latter.
Also I was reading http://www.expbus.com/pdfs/wiresize.PDF In this document
it states that AC43.13 gives a maximum allowable voltage drop of of 0.5
volts in a wire circuit. It gives an example of an 18 AWG wire and says the
maximum allowable length is 9.25 feet.
Yet in almost every aircraft wiring diagram I see nav lights wired with 18AWG
and the circuit has to be 30 to 40 feet. Can you explain this?
Im building a velocity and almost every circuit that goes to the rear is 15ft
one way. 30ft round trip. Certainly I dont have to use hugh wires for all
these circiuts Please Help?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: - aircraft wiring |
> 28. 11:16 PM - aircraft wiring (TimRhod(at)aol.com)
> I was reading http://www.expbus.com/pdfs/wiresize.PDF In this document
> it states that AC43.13 gives a maximum allowable voltage drop of of 0.5
> volts in a wire circuit. It gives an example of an 18 AWG wire and says
the
> maximum allowable length is 9.25 feet.
And doubtlessly some mysterious problems occur as a result. I once had a
small
job to lower a video camera and 12V lights several hundred feet down a hole.
The lights were 8A.
The end result was achieved only by using a 24 volt power supply on top and
a 12V regulator
at the camera end.
> Yet in almost every aircraft wiring diagram I see nav lights wired with
18AWG
> and the circuit has to be 30 to 40 feet. Can you explain this?
In the near future running a bunch of wires to a remote point will seem
barbaric. There are a variety of systems today for running ONE wire out to
multiple loads. The complexity is not great. Even slicker is a high voltage
3-phase AC power to remote loads. Those military guys and their 400 Hz
devices...they're not crazy. All this is easier and cheaper than it has ever
been. We live in a land of undreamt-of riches.
>...building a velocity and almost every circuit that goes to the rear is
15ft
> one way. 30ft round trip. Certainly I don't have to use huge wires for
all
> these circuits Please Help?
Stay tuned. Soon!
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
- - Leonard Cohen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Toggle Switch for Starter |
I was looking on B and C's website this weekend trying to get all my
switches ordered and I can't find the S700-1-8 switch. (SPDT with spring
return) Can I still order it from them or do I need to find another source?
If I find another source what do I need to order to make sure that it looks
the same as the others?
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach
RV-7 Houston
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dumb Questions |
>
>
> > 1) Grounding: Even though Iam buildingan aircraft with a steel tube
>fuselage I am planning on running a separate ground cable from instrument
>panel ground bus directly to the battery.
>
> correct
>
> > 2) The alternatorFIELDbreakergoeson the panel and the alternatorOUTPUT
>cirquit protection (probably fusible link in my case)goes near the starter
>contactor, correct?
>
>fuselink for 40 Amps, I doubt, the fuse goes as close a spossible to the
>alternator, which might in this case be on the firewall close to the
>starter contactor.
"Fuselink" should not be confused with "fusible link" and
the supper fat fuses like the JJN/JJS/ANL series fuses
that you will find called out on various wiring diagrams.
Fusible links are described at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html
really big fuses (sometimes called current limiters)
are illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html
http://216.55.140.222/Pictures/clbase.jpg
and
http://www.bussmann.com/library/bifs/1029.pdf
Circuit protection goes as close as possible to the
SOURCE of energy that puts the wire at risk. Alternators
are physically incapable of tripping their own b-lead
protection . . . it's ship's BATTERY that will burn
this wire IF you experience mechanical failure or shorted
diodes in alternator (both very rare). Sooo . . . b-lead
protection is installed at the FAR END of the wire
leading from alternator b-lead to wherever it ties to
ship's power distribution.
> >
> > 3) When would one want to pull the alternator field breaker to run on
>battery only?
>
>if you want to shutdown the alternator you pull the breaker, this could be
>for test reason, or if you supsect the OV did not work or ..... and the
>breaker is also triggered from the OV module.
OR . . . should the regulator become unstable and
the bus voltage is jumping round (like the thread on
increased alternator field supply resistance we've
been discussing in another thread). The breaker is
shown on our wiring diagrams as the ONLY breaker in
a fuse-block equipped airplane because the CROWBAR
OV protection needs the breaker. It's not included
just because you "might want to pull the field
breaker" . . . the latest versions of Z-drawings
show the S700-2-10 progressive transfer switch that
mimics the infamous split-rocker switch and allows
you to move the DC PWR MASTER switch to a mid, battery
only operating position.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PeterHunt1(at)aol.com |
Hi Bob,
I would appreciate your helping me better understanding when and how to
protect LED lights. I read your recent post where you suggest putting a 330 ohm
resister in series at the feed end to the LED and a diode (1N4005 or similar) in
parallel with the LED with banded end (cathode) of the diode tied to the plus
wire on the LED. My first question ... Should I wire each of the following
four LEDs on my panel in this manner?
1. LED in parallel with flap motor when switch is in the "flaps up" position.
2. LED in parallel with pitot heat.
3. LED in series with micro switch on canopy locking mechanism.
4. LED in parallel with boost pump.
I am using Radio Shack 276-084A LEDs. Both wires are equal length. My
second question ... Is the red wire of the LED positive and the black wire
negative? (This is a convenient LED as the bulb has a lip on the outside and a
nut
on the back side and so requires no holder.) Just a 13/64" hole in the panel.
Thanks in advance, Bob.
Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Panel Lights |
Jon: I have a couple of these Jameco #150922 clusters and have tested them.
They will work just great for what you are wanting to do with them. I have
even tested with a zener diode in line to reduce their brightness which
seems more than adequate for night use. The current draw is low and with
the expected long life of the led I am considering not putting them on a
switch but rather just leaving them on at all times the main is on. I plan
to wire one light to main buss and other to e-buss each with 1 amp fuse.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip-up TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak
On Finish Kit
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED Panel Lights
>
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I'm working on a panel lighting project and am looking for some input.
> >
> >I fly a Q2 which, for a seatback, has a full height bulkhead and full
> >canopy. I would like to install two LED clusters in this seatback
> >bulkhead that shine on the panel. I don't have individually lighted
> >gauges and don't plan to install post lights. So, with that in mind:
> >
> >I have searched for LED clusters I have found these units
> >(http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=91&prrf
> >nbr=4151&cgrfnbr=501&ctgys=) from Jameco (Jameco #150922). They don't
> >provide any beam width information, of course.
> >
> >I don't mind fabricating my own mount and/or my own LED cluster.
> >Wondering if anyone has already done this and has tips that could save
> >the next person (me!) some time??
>
> Sure . . . and it's easy. For an overhead flood, you probably
> don't want someone else's idea of what a "cluster" of
> LEDs is supposed to do. When you get one of the prefab
> assy leds pointed the right way, you'll be lucky if more
> than one of the remaining LEDs points where you want it.
>
> I've built LED replacements for the overhead flood
> in high wing ships like a Cessna using at most 4 and usually
> only 3, hi-intensity red LEDs. Three lamps in series can
> be powered from 12v with a 180 ohm resistor to limit current.
>
> Just jury-rig a means for holding the lamps and positioning
> them for best uniformity across the panel. Once you've decided
> how many lamps and where they need to point, you can work
> on hardening up the mounting for permanent installation.
>
> Some builders have designed overhead floods to run from
> an array of 9v alkaline batteries. For no more often than
> you'll need panel lighting, three alkaline batteries will
> give you approximately 30 hours of high intensity lighting
> and 50-60 low intensity lighting. This would make your
> panel lighting totally independent of ship's power.
>
> If you want to work with white lights, use only 2
> in series per 180 ohm resistor. Count on four lights
> total, two separate strings.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Another One.. |
Grant,
Have a look at Z-11 again. The left mag has no power to it.
It's a mag and makes it's own power. The other diagram, the one
powered by the battery buss, goes to an electronic ignition.
Still nothing to do with the starter. The start switch shows as a
push button but could be anything. A twenty awg wire with a 7 amp
fuse could hang out of your panel and you could touch them together
to energize the starter solonoid. A standard size, spring loaded of
course,
would be quite acceptable for this kind of light current load. Most of
these small solonoids draw less than an amp. HTH.
Larry Mac Donald
Rochester N.Y.
Forgot one question I know it seems really dumb but I'd feel better
hearing the answer I'm 99% sure of.
I'm unclear about the starter switch on the panel: The way Z-11 is drawn
the starter is energized by a spring loaded toggle mag switch.That's
whatI'm planning on. I've been confused though bytalk ofpush button
starters. I know they are an option for those who like them but are they
a requirement ( the spring loaded toggle switch only allows current to
flow to the push button starter)?
Thanks again,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Heinen" <mjheinen(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Protecting LEDs |
My understanding is the resistor is to get the voltage down to tolerable
levels for the LED. The long lead should be positive. THe LEDsI have are
rated at 3.6 volts at 20 mA. I used 47 ohm resitors ...one on each side of
the LEDs with the circuit being...
12 volt battery positive >switch > 47 ohm resistor > Positive lead on led>
Negative lead on led > + led >- led >+led > - led > 47 ohm resistor >
negative ground.
Check out ....good service and price...
http://www.whitelightled.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: <PeterHunt1(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Protecting LEDs
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I would appreciate your helping me better understanding when and how to
> protect LED lights. I read your recent post where you suggest putting a
330 ohm
> resister in series at the feed end to the LED and a diode (1N4005 or
similar) in
> parallel with the LED with banded end (cathode) of the diode tied to the
plus
> wire on the LED. My first question ... Should I wire each of the
following
> four LEDs on my panel in this manner?
>
> 1. LED in parallel with flap motor when switch is in the "flaps up"
position.
>
> 2. LED in parallel with pitot heat.
>
> 3. LED in series with micro switch on canopy locking mechanism.
>
> 4. LED in parallel with boost pump.
>
> I am using Radio Shack 276-084A LEDs. Both wires are equal length. My
> second question ... Is the red wire of the LED positive and the black
wire
> negative? (This is a convenient LED as the bulb has a lip on the outside
and a nut
> on the back side and so requires no holder.) Just a 13/64" hole in the
panel.
>
> Thanks in advance, Bob.
>
> Peter
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: - aircraft wiring |
Didn't see where this thread got started so I'm not really sure
of the details offered by the original posting . . .
>
> > 28. 11:16 PM - aircraft wiring (TimRhod(at)aol.com)
> > I was reading http://www.expbus.com/pdfs/wiresize.PDF In this document
> > it states that AC43.13 gives a maximum allowable voltage drop of of 0.5
> > volts in a wire circuit. It gives an example of an 18 AWG wire and says
>the
> > maximum allowable length is 9.25 feet.
>
>And doubtlessly some mysterious problems occur as a result. I once had a
>small
>job to lower a video camera and 12V lights several hundred feet down a hole.
>The lights were 8A.
>The end result was achieved only by using a 24 volt power supply on top and
>a 12V regulator
>at the camera end.
>
> > Yet in almost every aircraft wiring diagram I see nav lights wired with
>18AWG
> and the circuit has to be 30 to 40 feet. Can you explain this?
It's not difficult. Nav light circuits are unique in that unlike
ALL other systems in the airplane, the circuit branches out to
MULTIPLE loads. Each LOAD in a 14v nav light circuit is a 2A bulb
for a combined system load of 6A. While 18AWG wire is indeed
oversized for the load presented by each lamp, one has to consider
that the circuit protection and individual strands of wire should
match up. Sooo . . . if one puts 10A of circuit protection on
the nav lights, one is obligated to string wire of that rating
(or larger) also. Hence 18AWG.
Now, how about voltage drop. 18AWG is 6.4 milliohms per foot.
2A of current products 12.8 millivolts per foot drop. 500
millivolts divided 12.8 mv/foot yields 39 feet. In a composite
aircraft this means that your nav light can be 20 wire-feet
away from the source for a 40-foot round trip.
I suspect the 9.25 foot value cited came from the notion that
every strand of wire in the system carries total load for the
system which isn't true.
Now, does the breaker/fuse HAVE to be 10A? No, you're
only drawing 6A so a 7.5A protection would do. If you're
building a metal airplane and will ground nav lights
locally, one could consider 20AWG wire at 10 milliohms
per foot where a 25-foot loop length calculates under the
RECOMMENDED 500 millivolt drop per lamp circuit.
> >...building a velocity and almost every circuit that goes to the rear is
> 15ft
> > one way. 30ft round trip. Certainly I don't have to use huge wires for all
> > these circuits Please Help?
The 500 mv suggestion is just that, a suggestion. He's so
close to the 25-foot loop limit for 20AWG wire that should
he be inclined to run the 20 instead of 18, it's no big deal.
If he has other system that requires 18AWG wire, then ordering
enough to do that system along with the nav lights would make
sense but if nav lights is the ONLY system that calls for
18, then wiring it with 20 and fusing it at 7.5 amps would be
an acceptable alternative.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aircraft wiring |
oops, okay, the original post showed up in my mailbox . . .
>Can someone tell me if M22759/16 aircraft wire is the same as Mil-W-22759/16
>aircraft wire? I found the former on the web at a significanty less cost
>than the latter.
Yes, they are the same wire.
>Also I was reading http://www.expbus.com/pdfs/wiresize.PDF In this document
>it states that AC43.13 gives a maximum allowable voltage drop of of 0.5
>volts in a wire circuit. It gives an example of an 18 AWG wire and says the
>maximum allowable length is 9.25 feet.
see my post of a few minutes ago . . .
>Yet in almost every aircraft wiring diagram I see nav lights wired with 18AWG
>and the circuit has to be 30 to 40 feet. Can you explain this?
>
>Im building a velocity and almost every circuit that goes to the rear is 15ft
>one way. 30ft round trip. Certainly I dont have to use hugh wires for all
>these circiuts Please Help?
20AWG would probably be fine, 18AWG would definitely satisfy
the most discriminating critics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Altitude encoder recommendation? |
I have a new Microair transponder I'm installing. I have an ancient Terra
encoder but I don't trust it, and I think I'm just going to chuck it and
buy a new one.
What do you all recommend? Transcal? Ack?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Toggle Switch for Starter |
>
>
>I was looking on B and C's website this weekend trying to get all my
>switches ordered and I can't find the S700-1-8 switch. (SPDT with spring
>return) Can I still order it from them or do I need to find another source?
>If I find another source what do I need to order to make sure that it looks
>the same as the others?
>
>Godspeed,
>
>Phil Birkelbach
>RV-7 Houston
That one has never been stocked. You are about third person
in 5 or 6 years that wanted on. Most folks who have controlled
starters with toggles have interlocked them with magnetos such
that right mag has to be off and left mag on for starter to
be engaged by lifting left mag switch to full up. This uses
the 2-5 switch which is stocked by B&C. Alternatively
folks have used the guarded push-button also offered by
B&C. I'll drop them a note and see if they would add the 1-8 . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Protecting LEDs |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I would appreciate your helping me better understanding when and how to
>protect LED lights. I read your recent post where you suggest putting a
>330 ohm
>resister in series at the feed end to the LED and a diode (1N4005 or
>similar) in
>parallel with the LED with banded end (cathode) of the diode tied to the plus
>wire on the LED. My first question ... Should I wire each of the following
>four LEDs on my panel in this manner?
when they're used as a starter engaged light, there is some
risk to the led for low energy, reverse transients.
>1. LED in parallel with flap motor when switch is in the "flaps up" position.
>
>2. LED in parallel with pitot heat.
>
>3. LED in series with micro switch on canopy locking mechanism.
>
>4. LED in parallel with boost pump.
>
>I am using Radio Shack 276-084A LEDs. Both wires are equal length. My
>second question ... Is the red wire of the LED positive and the black wire
>negative? (This is a convenient LED as the bulb has a lip on the outside
>and a nut
>on the back side and so requires no holder.) Just a 13/64" hole in the panel.
understand. I think your risks are minimal. it would be interesting
to see how they stand up in the service you've assigned to them
without going to any extra lengths to "protect" them.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Another One.. |
>
>Forgot one question I know it seems really dumb but I'd feel better
>hearing the answer I'm 99% sure of.
>
>I'm unclear about the starter switch on the panel: The way Z-11 is drawn
>the starter is energized by a spring loaded toggle mag switch.That's
>whatI'm planning on. I've been confused though bytalk ofpush button
>starters. I know they are an option for those who like them but are they a
>requirement ( the spring loaded toggle switch only allows current to flow
>to the push button starter)?
you can use either toggle or push-button switches for engagine
the starter. See figures Z-27, Z-28 and Z-12 for variations on
this theme. If you're going to interlock mags and starter such
that the starter cannot be engaged with non-impulse coupled
mag on, then you can use either Z-27 with two 2-3 switches for
mags and a S895-1 guarded push-button -OR- you can use
2-5 switches for the mags and wire so that starter is engaged
when left mag switch is pushed full up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Altitude encoder recommendation? |
Sandia SAE5-35. It has both serial & gray code output -- nice if you need
to feed a GPS (serial) as well as a transponder (typically gray code) and
don't feel like springing for a serializer. Easy to remove from its base,
which is easy to install. Other than that, I haven't flown with it yet, so
I can't vouch for anything but its specs or form factor.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <richard(at)riley.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Altitude encoder recommendation?
>
> I have a new Microair transponder I'm installing. I have an ancient Terra
> encoder but I don't trust it, and I think I'm just going to chuck it and
> buy a new one.
>
> What do you all recommend? Transcal? Ack?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Protecting LEDs |
Mike Heinen wrote:
>
>My understanding is the resistor is to get the voltage down to tolerable
>levels for the LED.
>
Close, but not quite. If the LED is rated at 3.6v, that's pretty much
what it will pull unless overdriven - and then it won't last very long
at all. What the resistor actually does is limit current - in fact, they
are known as "current-limiting" resistors in this circuit - but you
could put any kind of current limiter there, it's just that resistors
are the cheapest - but you have to size them properly.
You see, the LED is highly non-linear WRT current - it will "require"
very close to 3.6v over a wide range of current - anything from less
than 1 milliamp to 100 milliamps or more... less current and it's dim;
more current and it's brighter (up until it burns out) - but the voltage
stays pretty much the same over the range I mentioned. It's your job to
calculate the resistor value that will allow just the right amount of
current through - not enough resistance, and the current goes up and
reduces the life of the LED; too much resistance, and it may be dimmer
than you want.
The calculation is simple - the available voltage is 13.8v (typical main
bus voltage) minus the 3.6 volt that the LED will use... so you've got
10.2v across the resistor (or resistors if you like, but there's no good
reason in this case to use more than one) - and you want no more than
20mA to pass through it... ohm's law says E=IR or E/I=R... 10.2/.02 =
510 ohms.
Any higher resistance will mkae the light dimmer; any lower resistance
and you will be exceeding the rated current, possibly reducing the LED's
life. Actually, with your proposed 94 ohms resistance, the current will
be (E/R=I) or 10.2/94 = 0.11, or 110 milliamps - not a good idea... they
will get pretty hot, and expected life will definitely be reduced. Not
only that, but the power dissipated in each resistor (P=I
2*R) will be
47*.11*.11, or over 1/2 watt, requiring each resistor to be 1 watt
rating - relatively large!
> The long lead should be positive. THe LEDsI have are
>rated at 3.6 volts at 20 mA. I used 47 ohm resitors ...one on each side of
>the LEDs with the circuit being...
>
>12 volt battery positive >switch > 47 ohm resistor > Positive lead on led>
>Negative lead on led > + led >- led >+led > - led > 47 ohm resistor >
>negative ground.
>
>
A single 510-ohm resistor will get you the proper current, and will only
dissipate less than a quarter-watt, so a half-watt resistor would be the
proper choice. Why do you want to use two resistors?
-John R.
P.S.: Digikey has brighter LEDs with lower cost - but it does require a
bit of searching, they have so many! Here's an interesting one,
441-1008-ND on page
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T033/1199.pdf
Actually, this one is mounted in a wedge base for use with standard
automotive light sockets (although you'll probably never need to replace
it) - and it even apparently contains its own current-limiting resistor
(it has a 12-volt rating)!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry & Gerry" <psychden(at)sonic.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall sensor problem??? |
I believe that the Hall sensor setup for the VM 1000 is designed to show alternator
output and not the system load directly. Until you run your engine (and
the alternator) you won't see anything but "0" on the "amps" display. Larry Ford
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Protecting LEDs |
>
>My understanding is the resistor is to get the voltage down to tolerable
>levels for the LED. The long lead should be positive. THe LEDsI have are
>rated at 3.6 volts at 20 mA. I used 47 ohm resitors ...one on each side of
>the LEDs with the circuit being...
(14v - 3.6v)/0.02A = 520 ohms total. If you're running two
47 ohm resistors for a total of 94 ohms, then your bulb current
in on the order of (14v - 3.6v)/94ohms = 0.11 amps or 110 mA.
Most LEDs I've played with will perform well with up to 2x
over current . . . but you might want to check your present
configuration. If I understand you, it appears that you're
overdriving by about 5x.
The "protection" that was cited has to do with very short
duration, low energy transients that might punch out the
LED's junction in a reverse voltage mode.
I did an article on LEDs some years ago that needs to be
updated to cover higher voltage devices (whites and blues)
as well as the reverse voltage situation. Need to do some
testing on the bench first tho . . . I'll put that on the
list of things to do.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall sensor problem??? |
>
>I believe that the Hall sensor setup for the VM 1000 is designed to show
>alternator output and not the system load directly. Until you run your
>engine (and the alternator) you won't see anything but "0" on the "amps"
>display. Larry Ford
One can slip the hall sensor over any wire in the airplane
you wish to monitor . . . but larry is right, if you've installed
it over the alternator b-lead, it will function as an alternator
loadmeter and will read zero unless the alternator is functioning.
Some builders have installed it on the battery feed wire and
use it as a battery ammeter in which case I believe it will
properly sense and display both (+) and (-) current flows.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dumb Questions |
>
>List,
>
>As I'm getting close to cutting out my panel (again) I'm getting nervous
>and need confirmation of some things I am only95% sure ofon Figure Z-11:
>Could you please confirm?
>
>1) Grounding: Even though Iam buildingan aircraft with a steel tube
>fuselage I am planning on running a separate ground cable from instrument
>panel ground bus directly to the battery. Am I interpreting the drawing
>properly? The cable isn't shown on the drawings I can find implications
>of not needing it in The Connection chapters but I can also find
>implications that is the most important cable in the aircraft (obviously
>it would be for a composite)
Yes . . .
>2) The alternatorFIELDbreakergoeson the panel and the alternatorOUTPUT
>cirquit protection (probably fusible link in my case)goes near the starter
>contactor, correct?
yes . . .
>3) When would one want to pull the alternator field breaker to run on
>battery only?
this would work or if you're using the 2-10 progressive transfer
switch for DC PWR MASTER then you can get battery only by moving
the switch down to the mid position.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Hall sensor problem??? |
Actually, it will not properly display both (+) and (-) current flows.
The Hall sensor will sense both directions, but the data processing unit
and display are made to show any (-) current flow as zero (0). I'm not
sure why they did it that way. Perhaps because the analog part of their
display is laid out to display only positive current. I think I would
have made it so that the digital part of the display would show the
negative current even if the analog part just stopped at zero. That
would give you more options on how you chose to use their equipment.
Dave in Wichita
> >
> >I believe that the Hall sensor setup for the VM 1000 is designed to
show
> >alternator output and not the system load directly. Until you run
your
> >engine (and the alternator) you won't see anything but "0" on the
"amps"
> >display. Larry Ford
>
> One can slip the hall sensor over any wire in the airplane
> you wish to monitor . . . but larry is right, if you've installed
> it over the alternator b-lead, it will function as an alternator
> loadmeter and will read zero unless the alternator is functioning.
>
> Some builders have installed it on the battery feed wire and
> use it as a battery ammeter in which case I believe it will
> properly sense and display both (+) and (-) current flows.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: - aircraft wiring |
Bob : am I figuring this right?
My nav lights have two bulbs in them. One pair for each wingtip. One is 26W
14V the other is 75W 40V.
26 divided by14 gives 1.86 Amps. 75/40= 1.88Amps total for each wingtip
is 3.75Amps.
3.75Amps X 6.4milliohms(18AWG)= 24millivolts/foot drop. 500millivolts/24=
20.8feet or 10 foot round trip. Not enough even for one wing. My wire run in
the velocity runs from the panel to the firewall 10ft. then splits to each
wing 16ft each way. considering only one wing ( 3.75Amp) and fuselage the run
is 26ft or 52ft round trip. A 14AWG is the first acceptable size. Can this be
right? I called Whelen and the teck there said that I only had to consider
the length one way. That didnt seem right to me as well. thanks
Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
Larry & Gerry
| Subject: | Hall sensor problem??? |
In my simple mind, the VM-1000 shows alternator output up to the load
being drawn (battery charging plus actual load to run the lights,
instruments and avionics.) My battery is new and should be fully
charged, but I know that my instruments and avionics are pulling some 7
to 8 amps. So, the VM-1000 should show at least that reading. Maybe Bob
can confirm.
I used a 13.8v/10Amp power supply in place of the alternator and showing
zero amps. In other words, the power supply was acting as a 10 Amp
alternator. I checked that the current was in the proper direction for
the sensor. Still a mystery.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
------------------------
>
> From: "Larry & Gerry" <psychden(at)sonic.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall sensor problem???
>
>
> I believe that the Hall sensor setup for the VM 1000 is designed to show alternator
> output and not the system load directly. Until you run your engine (and
> the alternator) you won't see anything but "0" on the "amps" display. Larry
Ford
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch |
For wiring a Rotax 912 with the ACS A-510-2 switch (Page 381 in Spruce catalog)
do any of the terminals have to be jumpered (IOW is either of the magnetos a
retard breaker or have impulse coupling type features)?
Also, I assume that you would run the shielding from both mags to the ground terminal
(term 5) and then NOT run a ground from this to the firewall grounding
block (but ground each cable shield individually at the ignition block), right?
The only thing that cornfuses me about this single point grounding technique is
that when the engine is running the mags are ungrounded anyway so why does it
make a difference?
Also, I assume I should use the diode supplied with the ACS switch (when wiring
per Z-16)?
Thanks folks!
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | component mounting ideas |
Does anyone have some handy pictures of some nifty tractor-engine installations
for mounting firewall components such as the fuse blocks, diodes, etc? Trying
to get some ideas on locations to mount things and a general feel for what will
end up neat, tidy, and user friendly.
Thanks!
Joa
S-7 w/ 912S
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switching On with Lightspeed |
Thanks. That is the answer I was looking for.
scot
>
>The impulse also retards!
>Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
>Editor, EAA Safety Programs
>cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org
>
>Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scot Stambaugh" <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switching On with Lightspeed
>
>
>
> >
> > I may have this backwards but the LSE retards the timing to zero for easy
> > starting while the mag is fixed at 25 deg BTDC. With both ON for starting
> > won't the mag fire 25 degrees before the LSE, defeating the easy-start
> > features that the LSE provides? Now you have the same "hard starting"
> > characteristics of a magneto-only system that has fixed timing at 25 deg
>BTDC.
> >
> > scot
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Fellow Listers:
> > > >What type of toggle switches is recommended with one impulse magneto
>and
> > > >the Lightspeed Plasma II ignition system that produces a similar
> > > >Aeroelectric Connection-type "lockout" feature for impulse-only
> > > >starting. Also what failure mode would suggest a 5A CB vs an in-line
>fuse
> > > >off the hot battery bus as directed by the installation manual.
>Breakers
> > > >bug me.
> > > >
> > > >As always thanks for the intelligent support.
> > >
> > > If it were my airplane, two S700-1-3 switches (or equal) would simply
> > > control OFF/ON for both systems. Both would be ON for cranking.
> > > The electronic ignition would run from a battery bus fuse or
> > > fusible link right from the hot side of battery contactor.
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: - aircraft wiring |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Tim,
Not Bob, but I'll make some comments.
>
> Bob : am I figuring this right?
> My nav lights have two bulbs in them. One pair for each wingtip. One
> is 26W 14V the other is 75W 40V.
What kind of light is 40V? Is that the strobe? Is the strobe supply
in the wing tip, or more centrally located? Need to find out the
average power demand of the strobe, which is probably much less
than 75W, and then base the calcs on that. As a point of reference,
the low beam filament in a car headlight is 35W, high beams are 65W.
> 26 divided by14 gives 1.86 Amps. 75/40= 1.88Amps total for each
> wingtip is 3.75Amps.
> 3.75Amps X 6.4milliohms(18AWG)= 24millivolts/foot drop.
> 500millivolts/24= 20.8feet or 10 foot round trip. Not enough even for
These calculations are correct based on your 40V assumption.
> one wing. My wire run in the velocity runs from the panel to the
> firewall 10ft. then splits to each wing 16ft each way. considering
Not sure I would split the wire at the firewall - just run the strands
all of the way to the switch.
> only one wing ( 3.75Amp) and fuselage the run is 26ft or 52ft round
> trip. A 14AWG is the first acceptable size. Can this be right? I
> called Whelen and the teck there said that I only had to consider the
> length one way. That didnt seem right to me as well.
Did you ask him to explain that? Maybe he was thinking of installing
in a metal airplane which would us the airframe as a heavy guage ground.
I guess I don't think it would be a horrible problem if you suffered
a slightly worse voltage drop for your nav lights. They won't work
significantly less if they are another volt dimmer.
Have you looked at any of the LED nav lights?
> thanks Tim
>
>
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mstewart(at)qa.butler.com |
| Subject: | noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold |
version=2.53
Hi Folks,
Well I have this annoying noise in my RV. First let me say that I wired this
thing BEFORE I knew anything about grounding so my airframe is my ground.
(DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE)
After 800 hours I installed the Altrak altitude hold. When it is engaged, I
get this morris code noise in my headsets, only when the stereo is powered
on. The noise is definitely the stepper motor servo making the noise. The
servo is installed in the fuse in the tail cone, far from the stereo mounted
on my panel.
I have tried shielding the wires coming from servo, I tried moving the servo
wires to the other side of the fuse as they make their way to the panel.
Is there something bizarre about Stereos that amplify noise in this
frequency range. I also tried a Rat Shack RF choke on the stereo power line.
Ideas?
Thanks
Mike Stewart
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Circuit Breaker |
Bob,
What's your position on the automotive fuse block resetable circuit
breakers? Are they reliable enough to have in the electrical design? With
the Field Switch still in the system design, the pilot still has the
ultimate control over a runaway alternator problem.....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV 42 Hrs
> > 3) When would one want to pull the alternator field breaker to
run on
>battery only?
>
>if you want to shutdown the alternator you pull the breaker, this
could be
>for test reason, or if you supsect the OV did not work or ..... and
the
>breaker is also triggered from the OV module.
OR . . . should the regulator become unstable and
the bus voltage is jumping round (like the thread on
increased alternator field supply resistance we've
been discussing in another thread). The breaker is
shown on our wiring diagrams as the ONLY breaker in
a fuse-block equipped airplane because the CROWBAR
OV protection needs the breaker. It's not included
just because you "might want to pull the field
breaker" . . . the latest versions of Z-drawings
show the S700-2-10 progressive transfer switch that
mimics the infamous split-rocker switch and allows
you to move the DC PWR MASTER switch to a mid, battery
only operating position.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Hall sensor problem??? |
>
>
>Actually, it will not properly display both (+) and (-) current flows.
>The Hall sensor will sense both directions, but the data processing unit
>and display are made to show any (-) current flow as zero (0). I'm not
>sure why they did it that way. Perhaps because the analog part of their
>display is laid out to display only positive current. I think I would
>have made it so that the digital part of the display would show the
>negative current even if the analog part just stopped at zero. That
>would give you more options on how you chose to use their equipment.
>
>Dave in Wichita
Good data point Dave. I wasn't aware that VM1000 was unipolar.
So, it may be that he does have it installed backwards.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Circuit Breaker |
>
>
>Bob,
>
> What's your position on the automotive fuse block resetable circuit
>breakers? Are they reliable enough to have in the electrical design?
Why would you want to reduce reliability by replacing a one-part,
simple-calibration device with a multi-part, mechanically calibrated
part? How many over-current trips do you expect to have over the
lifetime of your airplane? How many have you had in ALL of the
cars you've owned?
> With
>the Field Switch still in the system design, the pilot still has the
>ultimate control over a runaway alternator problem.....
Pulling the breaker is NOT a pilot duty assignment for controlling
a runaway (overvoltage) condition. There is one breaker recommended
in a fuse-block system to support the installation CROWBAR ov protection
where the crowbar module will open the breaker in milliseconds after
onset of the OV event. The only time a pilot would have an interest
in pulling a field breaker is if the airplane is NOT fitted with
a switch that allows disconnecting alternator field without also
opening the battery master contactor. Older versions of Z-drawings
used a 2-3 switch that brought alternator and battery on and off together.
If the system becomes unstable, meaning that voltage is hopping
around without going into an ov condition, one would be interested
in taking the alternator off line . . .
Now, if you have an S700-2-10 DC PWR MASTER switch it's possible
to take a mis-behaving alternator off line by moving the switch to
the mid, battery-only position. If you're wired as shown in older
drawings, then you can pull the crowbar ov protection breaker that
also happens to be in series with the alternator field.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | affordable nav/position lights |
I want to add the wingtip strobe/nav/position lights later. For now though can
someone recommend a very affordable (but not high drag- none of those coffee
can lights) for just nav and position lighting?
Joa
S-7 w/ 912S
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Instruments for sale |
| From: | "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.blackler(at)boeing.com> |
All,
For those interested, I have the following new and unused instruments for sale:
* RC Allen P/N RCA26AK-2 Artificial Horizon (14V electric), internally lighted,
caging, inclinometer = US$1450 ono
* Altimeter, dual scale (mb and in Hg), United TSOd = US$350 ono
* Airspeed Indicator (True Airspeed w/temp adjust) = US$200 ono
* G-meter = US$150 ono
Notes:
The gyro comes with all paperwork, has 10 months warranty remaining, and has been
cycled daily for bearing health. This unit is a factory new replacement for
my old gyro.
All instruments have not been flown. Reason for sale: I have installed an EFIS.
Please contact me on this email address or by phone numbers listed below.
Kind Regards
Wayne Blackler
IO-360 Long EZ, 99.97% complete...
Seattle, USA
(253) 773 9829 (wk)
(253) 520 0447 (hm)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nav lights wiring requirements? |
>
>Bob : am I figuring this right?
>My nav lights have two bulbs in them. One pair for each wingtip. One is 26W
>14V the other is 75W 40V.
>26 divided by14 gives 1.86 Amps. 75/40= 1.88Amps total for each wingtip
>is 3.75Amps.
>3.75Amps X 6.4milliohms(18AWG)= 24millivolts/foot drop. 500millivolts/24>20.8feet
or 10 foot round trip. Not enough even for one wing. My wire
>run in
>the velocity runs from the panel to the firewall 10ft. then splits to each
>wing 16ft each way. considering only one wing ( 3.75Amp) and fuselage the
>run
>is 26ft or 52ft round trip. A 14AWG is the first acceptable size. Can
>this be
>right?
first, what kind of nav light is 75w? and I'm mystified by the 40v rating.
> I called Whelen and the teck there said that I only had to consider
>the length one way. That didnt seem right to me as well.
let's figure out what the loads are first.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Picking a new battery |
I am building a 12 Volt system with a 35 amp alternator. Battery goes in the tail
of my plane, 14 feet as acableis mounted frommy starter contactor. Whatelectrical
factors(e.g. assume Wt Bal,size, etcare non-issues)should I be aware ofwhen
choosing the battery? BC lists several different ampere-hour ratings. How
do I choose themost appropriateone? For endurance purposes,I will have 4-1/2
hours maximum fuel on board.
Grant Krueger
PS: The kit manufacturer supplied me with a 22.4 pound, 28 ampere-hour battery
but they also planned on a 60 amp alternator. I am suspect the battery they sent
has the same overkill factor. Not sure yet how to figure the Wt Balance portion
until I am fully covered painted though.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: nav lights wiring requirements? |
Ok I brokedown and read the install manuel. Here is what it says. " The
14V forward position lights draw 1.9Amps each. The tail light draws 1.8Amp
each. There are two forward and two tail lights for a total of 7.4 Amps for a
14V DC system."
So my figures on amp draw is correct. I dont know why the tail light is
marked 74W 40 V but that does work out to 1.8Amps as the manuel states. So my
problem and question remain. What size wire to use when the run from panel to wing
tip is approx. 26 ft. From above I figured a 14AWG wire was the minimal, but
can't believe it. thanks Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Jordan" <mkejrj(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Wire & fuse size |
Bob,
I'm building an RV 8 with aft mounted battery.Wiring is based on your book and
Z -12.
My Battery bus is a Fuse block with .25" PIDG faston tabs.It is mounted next to
the Battery. The battery bus will supply alternate power to the E-Bus mounted
forward of the Cockpit. The length of the wire is about 13'.
The load on the E-bus is, in a "max use" scenario,approx 26 AMPS:
EFIS ONE 10 AMP(see note 1)
EL. Art. Horizon 2.4 " ( " " 2)
Turn Coordinator .3 "
Digitrak A/P 3 "
Xponder 1.5 "
NAV-COM 7.5 " ( " " 3)
Cockpit Lts. .8 "
Intercom .2
#1: Blue Mt. Suggests 10 AMP circuit but they advise normal load @ 4 AMPS.
#2:Starting load shown; reduces to 1.2 AMPS after spooling up.
#3: Xmit load shown;Receive @ .7 AMPS.
If you reduce by the factors in the notes the load should be approx 12 AMPS.
Question : What size wire & fuse for E-Bus power supply ?Do you consider the ground
return wire in your calculations ?Do you figure on Max or Normal load ? If
Normal is their danger of blowing the fuse when you go to Max ?
I tried to decipher the tables in AC 43.13 using 26 ' wire length, "intermittent
flow", and 26 AMPS. I get #8 AWG.
Assuming #8 AWG is correct then how do you connect to the fuse block tabs which
appear to be sized for 10 AWG and smaller ?
" A little knowledge is a dangerous thing " and I 'm a dangerous fellow.Any help
you or the listers can give will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dick Jordan
Malvern, Pa...
RV 8A Finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nav lights wiring requirements? |
>
>Ok I brokedown and read the install manuel. Here is what it says. " The
>14V forward position lights draw 1.9Amps each. The tail light draws 1.8Amp
>each. There are two forward and two tail lights for a total of 7.4 Amps for a
>14V DC system."
>
>So my figures on amp draw is correct. I dont know why the tail light is
>marked 74W 40 V but that does work out to 1.8Amps as the manuel
>states. So my
>problem and question remain. What size wire to use when the run from panel
>to wing
>tip is approx. 26 ft. From above I figured a 14AWG wire was the minimal, but
>can't believe it.
3.7 amps per wing and 500 mv drop allowed works out to 135 millohms
loop resistance per wing or 5 millohms per foot for 26 foot loop.
This works out to 17AWG wire. Since this is hard to find, 16AWG will
put you well under for voltage drop, 18AWG will be slightly over.
10A circuit protection is adequate for either wire size.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robin Wessel" <Robin.Wessel(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Altitude encoder recommendation? |
I would check out the new version of the venerable ACK A-30 encoder. The
new version has serial + gray code for the same price. When you buy make
sure it has mod 4 (ser#85,000 or above).
http://www.ackavionics.com/
robin wessel
tigard, OR
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | nav light wire requirements |
From Tim Ok I think I got it figured out with help from all responders.
Here is what I think I can do. treat each wingtip as a seperate circuit.
There are two lights on this circuit (one colored and one white) for a total of
3.7 Amp draw. I can use a 18AWG wire if I am willing to accept a 1Volt drop
instead of the recomended 500millivolt drop. A one volt drop will give me 42
feet to work with. This will get me from the panel out to the wing tip and back
to the firewall ground bus where it ties in to a 2AWG ground wire. If I
cant accept a 1Volt drop than I can use a 16AWG and get a 0.7Volt drop. Tie
both circuits into the switch and a 10 amp breaker. Does this sound OK. How much
different is 0.5 volts to the brightness of a nav light? Thank you all for
your help. If ths is right Im done with this subject. I appreaciate the
learning I get from being part of this group. Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Picking a new battery |
>
>I am building a 12 Volt system with a 35 amp alternator. Battery goes in
>the tail of my plane, 14 feet as acableis mounted frommy starter
>contactor. Whatelectrical factors(e.g. assume Wt Bal,size, etcare
>non-issues)should I be aware ofwhen choosing the battery? BC lists several
>different ampere-hour ratings. How do I choose themost appropriateone? For
>endurance purposes,I will have 4-1/2 hours maximum fuel on board.
The vast majority of amateur built aircraft can
function nicely on a 15-18 a.h. battery. For endurance,
you'll want to configure an endurance bus that has
less than 17/4.5 or something under 3A steady state
load. This is generally not hard to do.
> Grant Krueger
>
>PS: The kit manufacturer supplied me with a 22.4 pound, 28 ampere-hour
>battery but they also planned on a 60 amp alternator. I am suspect the
>battery they sent has the same overkill factor. Not sure yet how to figure
>the Wt Balance portion until I am fully covered painted though.
Unless you need the "ballast" it's almost a certainty
that you can get by with a much smaller battery. How
old will your 28 a.h. battery be by the time of first
flight? What kind of battery is it?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
Our San Diego server is ailing . . . hope to have it
back on line by morning.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire & fuse size |
>
>Bob,
>I'm building an RV 8 with aft mounted battery.Wiring is based on your book
>and Z -12.
>
>My Battery bus is a Fuse block with .25" PIDG faston tabs.It is mounted
>next to the Battery. The battery bus will supply alternate power to the
>E-Bus mounted forward of the Cockpit. The length of the wire is about 13'.
>
>The load on the E-bus is, in a "max use" scenario,approx 26 AMPS:
> EFIS ONE 10 AMP(see note 1)
> EL. Art. Horizon 2.4 " ( " " 2)
> Turn Coordinator .3 "
> Digitrak A/P 3 "
> Xponder 1.5 "
> NAV-COM 7.5 " ( " " 3)
> Cockpit Lts. .8 "
> Intercom .2
>
>#1: Blue Mt. Suggests 10 AMP circuit but they advise normal load @ 4 AMPS.
>
>#2:Starting load shown; reduces to 1.2 AMPS after spooling up.
>
>#3: Xmit load shown;Receive @ .7 AMPS.
>
>If you reduce by the factors in the notes the load should be approx 12 AMPS.
If you're really wanting the e-bus to be an endurance bus, then
I'd put the horizon gyro and EFIS on the main bus. Recall that
the purpose of the e-bus is to maximize use of limited resource
in the en route mode of flight. If you've suffered some kind of
failure that makes the e-bus most valuable, then you want to
get into the "Apollo 13" en route mode of power utilization until
you've got airport in sight. I suspect the autopilot in a
smooth air mode draws less than 3A average. Nav/Com will be
in the receive mode 99% of the time. 0.8A is too much for lighting.
Move EFIS and Gyro off the bus ('cause you got a damned good a/p
that's going to fly better than you can) should be down on the
order of 4 amps. Yes, you can put switches on all those other things
and shed them selectively. Don't forget that the e-bus is a minimum
effort, bullet-proof means for improving the outcome of the flight.
If you make up a checklist for load shedding, then there is a distinct
possibility that accidental mis-positioning of switches can indeed
produce high loads you've hypothesized.
This gives rise to sizing the e-bus alternate feed to withstand
this condition so yeah, the wire size and the fuse can get
pretty beefy. You also need to heat-sink the normal feedpath
diode.
If you want the e-bus to "save the day" and minimize complexity
of both pilot intervention -AND- possibility of mis-positioned
switches, reducing e-bus loads as suggested will get you a wire/fuse
combination of 16AWG/10A. You might want to add a simple voltmeter
on the e-bus but this shouldn't draw more than a few milliamps.
>Question : What size wire & fuse for E-Bus power supply ?Do you consider
>the ground return wire in your calculations ?Do you figure on Max or
>Normal load ? If Normal is their danger of blowing the fuse when you go to
>Max ?
>
>I tried to decipher the tables in AC 43.13 using 26 ' wire length,
>"intermittent flow", and 26 AMPS. I get #8 AWG.
AC43-13 is a . . . well, don't get me started. Let's
be benevolent and call it an engineering document that
gives you a lot of information you don't need (including
errors and mediocre writing) and falls short for much
that you do need . . .
>Assuming #8 AWG is correct then how do you connect to the fuse block tabs
>which appear to be sized for 10 AWG and smaller ?
>
>" A little knowledge is a dangerous thing " and I 'm a dangerous
>fellow.Any help you or the listers can give will be appreciated.
Put AC43-13 back up on the bookshelf and stick with the
List. Your task is bigger than just picking sizes of wire
and fuses. How you plan to operate the airplane is much
more important and you won't find that discussed in
that document.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) |
>
>
> >#1: Blue Mt. Suggests 10 AMP circuit but they advise normal load @ 4 AMPS.
> >
> >#2:Starting load shown; reduces to 1.2 AMPS after spooling up.
> >
> >#3: Xmit load shown;Receive @ .7 AMPS.
> >
> >If you reduce by the factors in the notes the load should be approx 12 AMPS.
>
> If you're really wanting the e-bus to be an endurance bus, then
> I'd put the horizon gyro and EFIS on the main bus. Recall that
> the purpose of the e-bus is to maximize use of limited resource
> in the en route mode of flight. If you've suffered some kind of
> failure that makes the e-bus most valuable, then you want to
> get into the "Apollo 13" en route mode of power utilization until
> you've got airport in sight. I suspect the autopilot in a
> smooth air mode draws less than 3A average. Nav/Com will be
> in the receive mode 99% of the time. 0.8A is too much for lighting.
Dick, I forgot to ask if you are an all-electric airplane and if
you plan a second alternator. IF you plan at least an SD-8 on
the vacuum pump pad, then the e-bus can be planned for a larger
continuous load than you would for battery only.
With the SD-8, you could power the EFIS from the e-bus. The
alternate feed wire/fuse goes up to 14AWG/15A
Even with the earlier suggestion of 16AWG/10A, or the SD-8
supported 14AWG/15A combination, consider adding an S704-1
relay or equal to the system to control the e-bus alternate
feed path from the battery bus end . . . sort of a mini-battery
contactor.
As a rule of thumb, we try to avoid always-hot feeders breakered
at more than 5A . . . since fuses are so much faster, we could
stretch that to 7A which will supply most folks e-bus with a
reasonably sized, always-hot wire from battery bus.
It's a good idea to provide a disconnect right at the battery
bus for alternate feeds larger than 7A.
I published a drawing of this some months ago for someone but
until my server gets back up, I can't point you to it. Will
follow up on this later today.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Picking a new battery |
Unless you need the "ballast" it's almost a certainty
that you can get by with a much smaller battery. How
old will your 28 a.h. battery be by the time of first
flight? What kind of battery is it?
As my BC 110 SLA/RGbattery is already 5 years old ( dead) I will get a new one
before I fly.Thanks to your response I'm sure I can get by electrically with a
smaller battery. So now the question becomes 'How much smaller?': I don't think
this is right but if Isum all the E-Bus fuse sizes on Fig Z-11 I get 28 amps.
(IfIhave 4 hours of fuel that can't mean I need 4x28 AH of capacity. Obviously
I'm trying to make it too simple) I know all the fuses don't draw that much
all the time but how do I figure the steady state load for an alternator out
scenario?
Probably not an appropriate topicfor this list butI need a little direction on
the Wt Balance Calcs: Could someone point me to an authority? I've an inquiry
to the kit manufacturer but past answers haven't always been satisfactory or
timely.
Grant Krueger
MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RSwanson" <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Picking a new battery |
I'm not sure what you're looking for, but try these:
http://www.mrkent.com/flying/wt-bal/index.asp
http://www.florintsev.com/wb/
May be of some help.
R
----snip---
> Probably not an appropriate topicfor this list butI need a little
direction on the Wt Balance Calcs: Could someone point me to an authority?
I've an inquiry to the kit manufacturer but past answers haven't always
been satisfactory or timely.
Grant Krueger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. John Birgiolas" <jbirgiolas(at)smiletoronto.com> |
I have completed my 701 but for the engine and panel. I am starting the panel
now and have not been looking forward to it.
I have installed ringlites on four instruments, each of which has a + and - wire.
Can I connect the four + wires together and
connect them as one to the bus or should each wire have an individual connector?
Sorry for the basic question, the first of many.
I have been following the site for some time, but this is probably too basic a
question.
Is there a problem routing the transponder and radio antennas beside the battery
cables or would it be better to route them on
the opposite side of the fuselage with the headphone, mike and strobe/nav wiring?
Thanks, John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | expanded scale voltmeter and loadmeter |
Is the expanded scale voltmeter/loadmeter still being offered in kit or finished
form and if so how can I get one?
Thanks.
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | site back up . . . |
We got the oil changed, refilled the tank and jumpstarted
the server . . . it's back up an running.
While looking over the download traffic records, I noticed
that access to some of the big reference documents and
the CD Rom have expanded dramatically over the last two
months . . . and I am pleased that so many folks are
finding the data useful.
Problem is that total traffic coming off our server
is setting new records both for bytes transferred -and-
co-location billing charges. I need to rethink how
much stuff I'm going to support there, particularly
in terms of things that one can find out there in
the wild on the 'net. My server bill for last month
was about 2x what it cost me with the last hosting
service . . . the whole idea of owning our own
server was to cut costs by more than half!
At the moment, I think I'll have to back off on the
number and size of download options and go back to
offering the whole collection on an orderable CD.
So, if anyone finds that a link to a previously
available item doesn't work, the reason is that the
item was pulled off the server. I'll be looking
for a way to bring this service back . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | double-pole switch failure modes |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Bob,
In your experience, is there much value in replacing a single pole switch with
a double-pole switch in terms of separating signals where you want to reduce exposure
to single point failure? To elaborate a bit, the situation I'm considering
involves running ground/open discretes from several pieces of equipment
through a single switch in the cockpit that shuts all equipment down when actuated.
The obvious concern is that there's a single-point failure mode where if
the switch or any of the wires connected to it fails by shorting to ground,
the whole system goes down. The wiring can be mostly isolated from this failure
mode with diodes but this still leaves the single switch problem. If the requirements
(however bad they may be) don't allow splitting the discretes out
via more than one switch, does it buy me anything to go with a double- (or multi-)
pole switch to run the wires through different contacts? Have you ever seen
a multi-pole switch (toggle, PBA, or othewise) fail in such a way that only
one set of contacts fails closed?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A in painting hell...
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: expanded scale voltmeter and loadmeter |
>
>Is the expanded scale voltmeter/loadmeter still being offered in kit or
>finished form and if so how can I get one?
No, I wasn't happy with the quality of the basic instrument.
It was custom made for me but out of 30 pieces total, I had
to have 3 units re-worked . . . some more than once. 10%
failure rate is just too high.
I'm considering an alternative device that should be less
expensive and all solid state (bar graph) . . . but it's
going to be awhile.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: double-pole switch failure modes |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>In your experience, is there much value in replacing a single pole switch
>with a double-pole switch in terms of separating signals where you want to
>reduce exposure to single point failure? To elaborate a bit, the
>situation I'm considering involves running ground/open discretes from
>several pieces of equipment through a single switch in the cockpit that
>shuts all equipment down when actuated. The obvious concern is that
>there's a single-point failure mode where if the switch or any of the
>wires connected to it fails by shorting to ground, the whole system goes
>down. The wiring can be mostly isolated from this failure mode with
>diodes but this still leaves the single switch problem. If the
>requirements (however bad they may be) don't allow splitting the discretes
>out via more than one switch, does it buy me anything to go with a double-
>(or multi-) pole switch to run the wires through different contacts? Have
>you ever seen a multi-pole switch (toggle, PBA, or othewise) fail in such
>a way that only one set of contacts fails closed?
obviously, one can load a set of contacts such that one
pole of a multi-pole is compromised. Mechanical failure
is pretty rare . . . but it sounds like you're dealing with
low current levels . . . problem here is making sure you use
a switch rated for dry-circuit applications. Many power
handling switches depend on arcing to keep contact resistance
low. How about a multi-pole, sealed relay, one pole per system
for the disconnect function . . . then operate the relay with
a push-button. If the button is not a dry-circuit device (gold
plated contacts) then you can parallel the relay coil with
a 12 ohm, 5w resistor (push button ops are short and wouldn't
smoke the resistor).
Or consider a ground-to-disable discrete that is pulled down
with a hall effect device actuated by a push-button that
moves a magnet in the appropriate way. This lets you wire-or
all the disconnect lines together. Loss of pathway for any
single discrete only affects your ability to shut down the
one system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: site back up . . . |
Bob....the data on your web site is SO valuable, that I for one would be
happy to volunteer an annual contribution to retain it.
I'm sure others would feel the same way.
Neil
At 04:36 PM 9/3/03, you wrote:
>
>
>We got the oil changed, refilled the tank and jumpstarted
>the server . . . it's back up an running.
>
>While looking over the download traffic records, I noticed
>that access to some of the big reference documents and
>the CD Rom have expanded dramatically over the last two
>months . . . and I am pleased that so many folks are
>finding the data useful.
>
>Problem is that total traffic coming off our server
>is setting new records both for bytes transferred -and-
>co-location billing charges. I need to rethink how
>much stuff I'm going to support there, particularly
>in terms of things that one can find out there in
>the wild on the 'net. My server bill for last month
>was about 2x what it cost me with the last hosting
>service . . . the whole idea of owning our own
>server was to cut costs by more than half!
>
>At the moment, I think I'll have to back off on the
>number and size of download options and go back to
>offering the whole collection on an orderable CD.
>
>So, if anyone finds that a link to a previously
>available item doesn't work, the reason is that the
>item was pulled off the server. I'll be looking
>for a way to bring this service back . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: site back up . . . |
I would also shell out a few shekels, but what would be really nice
would be for someone to offer up some server space. Some one on this
list must be a sys admin who could slip a few items onto his server
without anyone complaining about it.
Kevin Horton
>
>Bob....the data on your web site is SO valuable, that I for one would be
>happy to volunteer an annual contribution to retain it.
>I'm sure others would feel the same way.
>
>Neil
>
>
>At 04:36 PM 9/3/03, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>We got the oil changed, refilled the tank and jumpstarted
>>the server . . . it's back up an running.
>>
>>While looking over the download traffic records, I noticed
>>that access to some of the big reference documents and
>>the CD Rom have expanded dramatically over the last two
>>months . . . and I am pleased that so many folks are
>>finding the data useful.
>>
>>Problem is that total traffic coming off our server
>>is setting new records both for bytes transferred -and-
>>co-location billing charges. I need to rethink how
>>much stuff I'm going to support there, particularly
>>in terms of things that one can find out there in
>>the wild on the 'net. My server bill for last month
>>was about 2x what it cost me with the last hosting
>>service . . . the whole idea of owning our own
>>server was to cut costs by more than half!
>>
>>At the moment, I think I'll have to back off on the
>>number and size of download options and go back to
>>offering the whole collection on an orderable CD.
>>
>>So, if anyone finds that a link to a previously
>>available item doesn't work, the reason is that the
>>item was pulled off the server. I'll be looking
>>for a way to bring this service back . . .
>>
>>
> > Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Simmons" <ken(at)truckstop.com> |
| Subject: | Re: site back up . . . |
Bob,
I could probably be persuaded to do this. We usually have 6-10 Mbps on our main
website during the day. I think we could handle the traffic that you're seeing.
I'm already hosting (and authoring) one EAA chapter's website and have offered
space to another one.
If you're interested, let me know.
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:05:51 -0400
>
>I would also shell out a few shekels, but what would be really nice
>would be for someone to offer up some server space. Some one on this
>list must be a sys admin who could slip a few items onto his server
>without anyone complaining about it.
>
>Kevin Horton
>
>>
>>Bob....the data on your web site is SO valuable, that I for one would be
>>happy to volunteer an annual contribution to retain it.
>>I'm sure others would feel the same way.
>>
>>Neil
>>
>>
>>At 04:36 PM 9/3/03, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>We got the oil changed, refilled the tank and jumpstarted
>>>the server . . . it's back up an running.
>>>
>>>While looking over the download traffic records, I noticed
>>>that access to some of the big reference documents and
>>>the CD Rom have expanded dramatically over the last two
>>>months . . . and I am pleased that so many folks are
>>>finding the data useful.
>>>
>>>Problem is that total traffic coming off our server
>>>is setting new records both for bytes transferred -and-
>>>co-location billing charges. I need to rethink how
>>>much stuff I'm going to support there, particularly
>>>in terms of things that one can find out there in
>>>the wild on the 'net. My server bill for last month
>>>was about 2x what it cost me with the last hosting
>>>service . . . the whole idea of owning our own
>>>server was to cut costs by more than half!
>>>
>>>At the moment, I think I'll have to back off on the
>>>number and size of download options and go back to
>>>offering the whole collection on an orderable CD.
>>>
>>>So, if anyone finds that a link to a previously
>>>available item doesn't work, the reason is that the
>>>item was pulled off the server. I'll be looking
>>>for a way to bring this service back . . .
>>>
>>>
>> > Bob . . .
>
>
The Internet Truckstop
The first and largest
freight matching
service on the
Intenet
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: site back up . . . |
>
>Bob,
>
>I could probably be persuaded to do this. We usually have 6-10 Mbps on our
>main website during the day. I think we could handle the traffic that
>you're seeing. I'm already hosting (and authoring) one EAA chapter's
>website and have offered space to another one.
>
>If you're interested, let me know.
>
>Ken
That would certainly be attractive as an interim if not
long term solution. If I had access to some file space
with an IP address to store the fat files, I could
simply link to that space from my index pages. The
stuff I took off the server today totals about 0.5
Gig and it's been growing steadily . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Amit Dagan" <amitdagan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Internally regulated alternator |
Bob,
I have been carefully studying your internally regulated alternator
protection diagram (Z-24), and after I incorporate it into Z-11, I think I
see no less than 5 (albeit related) protections against a malfunctioning
alternator.
If I have it right, I see:
1. 22AWG fusible link
2. 5A circuit breaker, connected to
3. Over-Voltage "corwbar" module
4. O-V disconnect relay
5. ANL60 current limiter.
I wonder of you could explane the scenario in which each of these devices is
called into action.
And then I have 2 other questions:
What could an automotive voltage regulator (if added to the circuit) give
as far as protection ?
If one has this regulator, Could one then eliminate any other devices ?
Thanks,
Amit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: expanded scale voltmeter and loadmeter |
Why can't you just do a simple zener voltage dropping circuit? Yes it
would be slightly non-linear, but close enough to serve very
effectively, I should think - like:
Ground ---> A <--10v Zener---> B <--- 1K-Ohm ----> C <--- Bus+
The bus voltage goes across points A and C; a 5-volt voltmeter goes
across the 1K resistor (B and C)... if you want to use a direct-reading
milliammeter (Full-Scale=1mA) rather than a voltmeter, just put a 5K
resistor together in series with the milliammeter across points B and C
above - or if you want to be able to calibrate it, use a 4.7K and
500-ohm trimpot instead of the 5K.If you're using a 50-uA meter, use a
100K resistor (or 90K + 20K trimpot) in series with the microammeter
across points B and C.
Wouldn't this be a lot simpler and get the job done?
-John R.
P.S.: If you want to go all solid state with a bargraph, a fairly simple
circuit can be made around the LM3914 - as a matter of fact I believe I
still have a hundred or so left over from a PC power supply monitor I
used to manufacture - if you want to design a kit around it, I'll donate
them to the cause (and yes they're still in their tubes)...
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Is the expanded scale voltmeter/loadmeter still being offered in kit or
>>finished form and if so how can I get one?
>>
>>
>
> No, I wasn't happy with the quality of the basic instrument.
> It was custom made for me but out of 30 pieces total, I had
> to have 3 units re-worked . . . some more than once. 10%
> failure rate is just too high.
>
> I'm considering an alternative device that should be less
> expensive and all solid state (bar graph) . . . but it's
> going to be awhile.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Rob,
If you found a Ham radio shop, you might be able to find the
local Amateur Radio Club. Since making and researching antennas is one of
the few remaining skills available to hams, they usually are well equipped
to measure them. As you know they are professionals who do not charge for
their services, so you should be able to attract the 'old guard' to your
project. If one accepts (our gang does), he will doubtless bring along an
antenna analyzer which gives much more accurate assessment at even low
powers and VHF.
They CAN be most helpful and probably curious as well, so no
commercial mumbo-jumbo or obfuscation.
.......for your consideration.
Ferg
PS: A professional is one who does his best according to his training,
experience and conscience. One who does it for pay (or what his boss says)
is a "commercial".
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Master switch warning light/buzzer |
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer
From: Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com>
Walt Hi!
> Another question is do you have any suggestions or recommendations for an
> externally mounted power plug to be used to jump start an a/c with low
> battery?
I've fitted a Aux. Power on port side of Aircraft viewable from P1 seat.
It's from a Race Car shop. Based around lightweight Plastic Socket with
matching input Plug with pullout handle. 2 versions. 50A and 175 Amp
Will carry 'jump' leads in A/C so whenever onboard power feels lazy I can
get a jump start from just about any 12V device. I went for 50Amp.
Cost about $25 for 50A and $40 for 175A
In an effort to keep it simple I positioned to clearly see connections still
made to outside world and in fact can reach forward and disconnect from
Cabin. Regards Gerry
Walt,
I did the same as Gerry, with a GP fitting just ahead of the
cockpit, port side, so that pilot can supervise if prop is hot (bound to
occur).
I made use of Bob Nuckolls' GPU design because over here the
PIper plug is available at many FBOs. I can also reach out from the seat and
disconnect if needed because it's so near the prop.
Good luck
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | master warning buzzer |
<>
Why not get a cheap beeper from Radio Shack and hook it across the
low-voltage warning light? Get a fairly weak one so it won't be audible in
flight, but will be with everything off.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Hall sensor problem??? |
Problem solved. Well, at least the problem went away. Can't say I solved
anything.
I disassembled and reassembled the Hall sensor, the fat wire it is
supposed to read, plus all the power circuit connections and the VM-1000
connections. No help.
I finally looked at my power supply and wondered if the leads were too
light for the 7-8 amp load. I made a new set of leads using 14 AWG wire
and, VIOLA, my VM-1000 started to work right. I had been losing about
1.5 volts between the power supply and the VM-1000 volt sensing, plus
the VM-1000 was showing no amps. With the new leads, I lose only 3
tenths of a volt, and the ammeter is showing a robust 6 amps with my
instrument lights, avionics, instruments and the battery on line. I can
assume the power supply leads were the problem the whole time.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Internally regulated alternator |
>
>Bob,
>I have been carefully studying your internally regulated alternator
>protection diagram (Z-24), and after I incorporate it into Z-11, I think I
>see no less than 5 (albeit related) protections against a malfunctioning
>alternator.
>
>If I have it right, I see:
>
>1. 22AWG fusible link
This is protection only for the short piece of wire
that extends the main bus up to the 5A breaker.
>2. 5A circuit breaker, connected to
This is to satisfy the design goals of the crowbar
OV module for an easy to trip, easy to reset response
to a dead-short presented by the OV module.
>3. Over-Voltage "corwbar" module
The brains of the ov protection system.
>4. O-V disconnect relay
Necessary because failures within an internally
regulated alternator cannot be mitigated by simply
shutting down power to the control line to the
back of the alternator. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/
>5. ANL60 current limiter.
This device protects ships system from hard faults
within the alternator . . . shorted pairs of diodes
in the rectifier. This is extremely rare. Automobiles
don't include this protection and the incidence of
vehicle fires due to shorted alternator diodes is
virtually unheard of . . . Diodes are so much more
reliable than when alternators first came onto the
scene that I suspect there will be a statistical
justification for leaving this item out of the
system in future designs. However, it's not expensive
in comparison to the overall cost of the airplane
and if it were my airplane, it would be present even
though there's almost a certainty that it would never
be called upon to operate over the lifetime of the
airplane. It's probably more likely that your
b-lead wire will get faulted to ground than having
diodes go bad.
>I wonder of you could explane the scenario in which each of these devices is
>called into action.
>
>And then I have 2 other questions:
>What could an automotive voltage regulator (if added to the circuit) give
>as far as protection ?
There is nothing a regulator can do to "protect" . . .
it just regulates. If it decides to quit regulating,
then other features are provided to protect against
regulator failure.
>If one has this regulator, Could one then eliminate any other devices ?
The b-lead contactor can go away if the alternator is
externally regulated.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jimk36(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: master warning buzzer |
The cheapest, easiest solution is simply to always leave your beacon or
strobes on. You have to really be asleep not to notice when you're out of
the airplane. It's saved me from leaving the master on a couple of times.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer
>
> < master on and running down the battery? I just did it today, and it's a
> pain in the posterior.>>
>
> Why not get a cheap beeper from Radio Shack and hook it across the
> low-voltage warning light? Get a fairly weak one so it won't be audible
in
> flight, but will be with everything off.
>
> Gary Casey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: expanded scale voltmeter and loadmeter |
>
>Why can't you just do a simple zener voltage dropping circuit? Yes it
>would be slightly non-linear, but close enough to serve very
>effectively, I should think - like:
>
>Ground ---> A <--10v Zener---> B <--- 1K-Ohm ----> C <--- Bus+
>
>The bus voltage goes across points A and C; a 5-volt voltmeter goes
>across the 1K resistor (B and C)... if you want to use a direct-reading
>milliammeter (Full-Scale=1mA) rather than a voltmeter, just put a 5K
>resistor together in series with the milliammeter across points B and C
>above - or if you want to be able to calibrate it, use a 4.7K and
>500-ohm trimpot instead of the 5K.If you're using a 50-uA meter, use a
>100K resistor (or 90K + 20K trimpot) in series with the microammeter
>across points B and C.
>
>Wouldn't this be a lot simpler and get the job done?
This has been done but zeners are not precision regulators.
They have a spread of 5% on tolerance, pretty high temperature
drift characteristics and high internal impedance. There are
more precise voltage reference chips like the LM185 series device
from National. Figure 7-18 of the AeroElectric Connection describes
how these devices can be integrated with an analog panel meter
and some resistors to generate an accurate and stable expanded
scale voltmeter.
>-John R.
>P.S.: If you want to go all solid state with a bargraph, a fairly simple
>circuit can be made around the LM3914 - as a matter of fact I believe I
>still have a hundred or so left over from a PC power supply monitor I
>used to manufacture - if you want to design a kit around it, I'll donate
>them to the cause (and yes they're still in their tubes)...
This is a really handy chip. If I were to consider a non-microprocessor
approach to this task, a pair of them designed to drive a 20
LED bar graph would give you 5% resolution over the range of 10 to 15
volts or 0.25 volt steps. This would duplicate the measurement range
of the product I offered. For slightly better resolution, the
display range could be compressed to 10.5 to 14.5 volts for 0.2
volt steps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: server back up . . . |
I am gratified at the many offers of support for both
expenses and 'net connected hardware that I've received
in response to the situation on our San Diego server
loads. I'm reluctant to put out the hat for financial
support because a major connectivity link for this
service is based on Matt Dralle's systems at matronics.com
I don't want to siphon off any support that could be
funneled into Matt's invaluable support of the OBAM
aircraft community. A number of folks have offered 'net
connected drive space. I'm considering several options for
new digs on the 'net for all or part of the 'Connection's
files. It seems likely that we'll have a practical
solution within the next few days.
In the mean time, if anyone has information support dollars
burning a hole in their pockets, don't forget Matt sets his
hat out once every year.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 |
Will the Nova X-Pac 904 work with the Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos units? Here's the
specs for each...
Each Aeroflash power supply (designed for use with their strobes) has a 2.7 amp
draw (two power supplies) and the output is supposed to be 10 joules each.
The X-Pac 904 has an output energy of 80 joules (total) and the output power when
divided between two heads is 45 watts per head. Now the weird thing is that
there is a note under the power output specs that says Note: This supply reduces
output power when only two outlets are activated. Does this mean it actually
delivers less than the 45 watts per head???
It appears that the X-Pac 904 has a little more kick than the Aeroflash units.
Question is can the Aeroflash strobes handle the extra power? I dont know much
about strobe construction and whether the materials differ that much between
the different units. The Nova supply is supposed to work well with the Whelan
strobes but can the Aeroflash strobes handle it? Anybody compared the physical
properties of the Whelans and the Aeroflashes?
If this combination works it might offer an intermediate brightness between the
two strobes at a much lower total cost than either.
Thanks!
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: master warning buzzer |
Jim, I've been doing exactly what you suggest - leave the strobe light on -
and it's saved my battery a time or two already!
Thanks, Walt Shipley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | tri-positon switch location |
I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch that
is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in the
digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have a
good link to an 8x1 lcd display?
Thanks
Bob
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: master warning buzzer |
>
>The cheapest, easiest solution is simply to always leave your beacon or
>strobes on. You have to really be asleep not to notice when you're out of
>the airplane. It's saved me from leaving the master on a couple of times.
>
>Jim
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net>
>To: "Aeroelectric-List"
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer
>
>
>
> >
> > < > master on and running down the battery? I just did it today, and it's a
> > pain in the posterior.>>
> >
> > Why not get a cheap beeper from Radio Shack and hook it across the
> > low-voltage warning light? Get a fairly weak one so it won't be audible
> > in flight, but will be with everything off.
> >
> > Gary Casey
The low votlage warning light on an LR-3 is pretty bright
and would indeed be flashing away at you if the battery
master were left on (as would the low voltage warning
offered from our catalog). LV warning watches the main
bus and would not let you know if the e-bus alternate
feed switch were left on . . .
Another alternative: If you have an oil pressure
switch with single pole, double throw contacts like
that offered by B&C, you can wire one throw for hour meter
control, the other throw for LOW OILP warning light. Run
the light from the e-bus and put the buzzer across
the light as Gary suggests. The illuminated oil
pressure light + buzzer would let you know if anything
were left on . . . including the e-bus alternate feed
switch.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 |
>
>
>Will the Nova X-Pac 904 work with the Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos
>units? Here's the specs for each...
>
>
>Each Aeroflash power supply (designed for use with their strobes) has a
>2.7 amp draw (two power supplies) and the output is supposed to be 10
>joules each.
>
>
>The X-Pac 904 has an output energy of 80 joules (total) and the output
>power when divided between two heads is 45 watts per head. Now the weird
>thing is that there is a note under the power output specs that says
>Note: This supply reduces output power when only two outlets are
>activated. Does this mean it actually delivers less than the 45 watts per
>head???
Probably. energy is stored on capacitors. One capacitor per
flash tube. If you disconnect one flashtube, the capacitor
associated with that tube no longer gets discharged and the
input energy to the system goes down. One might parallel
two outputs to a single flash tube but be cautious here.
The flash tubes have to dump out a lot of heat that is
proportional to the average power. Hooking a 10J tube to a
higher output power supply will certainly reduce tube life
and could cause it to fail rapidly due to overheating.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | brucem(at)olypen.com |
| Subject: | Turn Coordinator Substitute |
The FAA has seen the light. The recently released AC 91-75 (available at
www.faa.gov) shows how a second attitude indicator may be substituted for the
gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator required for IFR under FAR 91.205(d)(3). The
catch is the need for a power source independent of the one feeding the primary
AI. If electric, the substitute AI will cost $1200 more than a TC or T&B. Now
that puts a price on one's partial panel comfort level!
FWIW, Bruce
McGregor
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail.
http://www.olypen.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tri-positon switch location |
>
>I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch that
>is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in the
>digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have a
>good link to an 8x1 lcd display?
I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by
B&C as their S700-2-7 at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?11X358218
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch |
>
>
>For wiring a Rotax 912 with the ACS A-510-2 switch (Page 381 in Spruce
>catalog) do any of the terminals have to be jumpered (IOW is either of the
>magnetos a retard breaker or have impulse coupling type features)?
>
>
>Also, I assume that you would run the shielding from both mags to the
>ground terminal (term 5) and then NOT run a ground from this to the
>firewall grounding block (but ground each cable shield individually at the
>ignition block), right?
Yes, wire exactly as shown in Figure Z-16
>The only thing that cornfuses me about this single point grounding
>technique is that when the engine is running the mags are ungrounded
>anyway so why does it make a difference?
Single point grounding for noise control
is not related to ignition control. You want
to use the shields as ground for the switch and
ground shields at the engine end only.
>Also, I assume I should use the diode supplied with the ACS switch (when
>wiring per Z-16)?
No, the reasoning behind that diode is bogus.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
Put a diode across your contactor coil if it's not already
there. The diode supplied with the switch will be fine.
Adding it across the switch per ACS instructions adds
no value.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude |
hold
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>Well I have this annoying noise in my RV. First let me say that I wired this
>thing BEFORE I knew anything about grounding so my airframe is my ground.
>(DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE)
>
>After 800 hours I installed the Altrak altitude hold. When it is engaged, I
>get this morris code noise in my headsets, only when the stereo is powered
>on. The noise is definitely the stepper motor servo making the noise. The
>servo is installed in the fuse in the tail cone, far from the stereo mounted
>on my panel.
>
>I have tried shielding the wires coming from servo, I tried moving the servo
>wires to the other side of the fuse as they make their way to the panel.
>
>Is there something bizarre about Stereos that amplify noise in this
>frequency range. I also tried a Rat Shack RF choke on the stereo power line.
You're going to have to deduce the propagation
mode for getting the noise into your audio system.
Have you read the chapter on noise in the 'Connection?
Adding ground almost never fixes and can make
noise problems works. You need to do the homework
and ferret out the noise path before you're going
to be able to fix it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Greg B (parism70(at)yahoo.fr) on Thursday, September 4, 2003 at 06:19:04
>
>Thursday, September 4, 2003
>
>Greg B
>
>,
>Email: parism70(at)yahoo.fr
>Comments/Questions: I'm thinking of buiding an adaptor to be able to
>listen to a walkman while flying. For this i should have on one side a
>PJ-068 male and on the other side a 3.5mm stereo jack. Do you know how to
>connect and if there are any technical issues with doing this. Thanks for
>your fast reply
Try http://216.55.140.222/temp/WalkmanAdapter.gif
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Well considered and technically elegant answers to
all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also,
check out the downloadable materials at
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall sensor problem??? |
>
>
>Problem solved. Well, at least the problem went away. Can't say I solved
>anything.
>
>I disassembled and reassembled the Hall sensor, the fat wire it is
>supposed to read, plus all the power circuit connections and the VM-1000
>connections. No help.
>
>I finally looked at my power supply and wondered if the leads were too
>light for the 7-8 amp load. I made a new set of leads using 14 AWG wire
>and, VIOLA, my VM-1000 started to work right. I had been losing about
>1.5 volts between the power supply and the VM-1000 volt sensing, plus
>the VM-1000 was showing no amps. With the new leads, I lose only 3
>tenths of a volt, and the ammeter is showing a robust 6 amps with my
>instrument lights, avionics, instruments and the battery on line. I can
>assume the power supply leads were the problem the whole time.
Interesting. Pleased to hear that progress is being made
even if we don't understand exactly how or why!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus |
(follow up)
> As a rule of thumb, we try to avoid always-hot feeders breakered
> at more than 5A . . . since fuses are so much faster, we could
> stretch that to 7A which will supply most folks e-bus with a
> reasonably sized, always-hot wire from battery bus.
>
> It's a good idea to provide a disconnect right at the battery
> bus for alternate feeds larger than 7A.
>
> I published a drawing of this some months ago for someone but
> until my server gets back up, I can't point you to it. Will
> follow up on this later today.
See http://216.55.140.222/temp/E-BusFatFeed.gif
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mstewart(at)qa.butler.com |
| Subject: | noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold |
autolearn=ham version=2.53
Anxiously awaiting my book which I ordered mid last week.
And I will do my homework as soon as I get it.
Thanks
Mike Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>Well I have this annoying noise in my RV. First let me say that I wired
this
>thing BEFORE I knew anything about grounding so my airframe is my ground.
>(DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE)
>
>After 800 hours I installed the Altrak altitude hold. When it is engaged, I
>get this morris code noise in my headsets, only when the stereo is powered
>on. The noise is definitely the stepper motor servo making the noise. The
>servo is installed in the fuse in the tail cone, far from the stereo
mounted
>on my panel.
>
>I have tried shielding the wires coming from servo, I tried moving the
servo
>wires to the other side of the fuse as they make their way to the panel.
>
>Is there something bizarre about Stereos that amplify noise in this
>frequency range. I also tried a Rat Shack RF choke on the stereo power
line.
You're going to have to deduce the propagation
mode for getting the noise into your audio system.
Have you read the chapter on noise in the 'Connection?
Adding ground almost never fixes and can make
noise problems works. You need to do the homework
and ferret out the noise path before you're going
to be able to fix it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Nulites |
>
>
>I have completed my 701 but for the engine and panel. I am starting the
>panel now and have not been looking forward to it.
>
>I have installed ringlites on four instruments, each of which has a + and
>- wire. Can I connect the four + wires together and
>
>connect them as one to the bus or should each wire have an individual
>connector? Sorry for the basic question, the first of many.
>
>I have been following the site for some time, but this is probably too
>basic a question.
Your first task on this system decision is to do the
FMEA (failure mode effects analysis) for the system
in question.
I just finished updating and posting an article I
did on the subject for Sport Aviation almost 10 years
ago. You can get a copy at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FMEA.pdf
Basic questions you need to consider for this
or any other selection of component or technique
are:
1. How many ways can this part fail?
2. How will each failure affect system operation?
3. How will I know it failed?
4. Is the failure preflight detectable?
5. Is failure of this part, in any failure mode, likely to create
a hazard to flight?
6. Will failure of this part be likely to overtax my piloting
skills for comfortably terminating the flight?
John, I know it looks like I'm trying to
treat a simple question like a taxpayer-
financed research project . . . but consider the
following:
A quick FMEA on various options will reveal the risks
of "not doing it right" . . . if something comes
unhooked, the lights go out. If one of the exposed strands
at a joint gets a short to the airframe, the
lights go out. We protect all circuits so that failures in any
one system do not propagate to other systems.
Are you going to be in trouble if these four lights
decide not work some night?
If the answers to the "FMEA-6" suite of questions
reveal no great cause for concern, then one
the responses to your question is, "No matter how
you choose to connect these wires together, the
choices can be based on a sense of craftsmanship
without getting all wound around axles of
"reliability" and/or "tradition".
So, what works best for you? If the space is
tight, then the task can be as simple as soldering
all the wires together and covering with a layer of
heat-shrink tubing leaving you with a couple of
wires to route off to the dimmer control and ground.
If you want your project to take on the airs of
a Beechjet, then you could mount a D-sub connector
on spacers on the back side of your panel to create
a "minibus" . . . See:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/minibus.jpg
You could do this with a 9-pin connector
to accommodate your 4 sets of Nulite wires.
The point of all this is to suggest that whatever
technique you decide to use, there's no overwhelming
justification based on safety or tradition
for any particular technique . . . as long as
you're pleased with answers to the FMEA-6 . . .
>Is there a problem routing the transponder and radio antennas beside the
>battery cables or would it be better to route them on
>
>the opposite side of the fuselage with the headphone, mike and strobe/nav
>wiring?
They're fine all run together.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Picking a new battery |
>
>
> Unless you need the "ballast" it's almost a certainty
> that you can get by with a much smaller battery. How
> old will your 28 a.h. battery be by the time of first
> flight? What kind of battery is it?
>
>
>As my BC 110 SLA/RGbattery is already 5 years old ( dead) I will get a new
>one before I fly.Thanks to your response I'm sure I can get by
>electrically with a smaller battery. So now the question becomes 'How much
>smaller?': I don't think this is right but if Isum all the E-Bus fuse
>sizes on Fig Z-11 I get 28 amps. (IfIhave 4 hours of fuel that can't mean
>I need 4x28 AH of capacity. Obviously I'm trying to make it too simple) I
>know all the fuses don't draw that much all the time but how do I figure
>the steady state load for an alternator out scenario?
Recall that fuses protect wires and they need to be large
enough not to nuisance trip under normal operating conditions.
The sum total of fuse/breaker ratings has almost nothing to do with
how much power it takes to operate your airplane.
EVERY device you plan to use has a known electrical load
requirement. Sometimes it's marked on the nameplate, it should
always be part of the specifications data for the product.
If push comes to shove, you can power the device up on
the bench with a battery or better yet, a power supply
set for 14.0 volts and measure the device's operating
needs.
In the case of radios, check the installation manual's
first few pages for operating requirements . . . or call
the manufacturer. You need to know this information for
ALL of the devices in your airplane if you'd like to
make considered decisions for sizing hardware.
Some builders take the broad brush approach and install
the classic 24-18 a.h. battery and a 60A alternator.
It's much better and not difficult to a load analysis
that describes your electrical needs exactly. See
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf
for a graphical example.
Make copies of page 2 of this file. Fill in the blanks
for equipment items and continuous running loads for
various flight conditions. Only after you've completed
this exercise are you in a position to make an educated
decision about battery size and/or what your personal
goals are for alternator-out endurance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Jordan" <mkejrj(at)erols.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) |
Bob,
I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual
alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS.
You ask how the plane will be used since this dictates what eqpt. is
essential for the E-Bus.My answer is VFR & soft IFR. I had hoped to include
the EFIS ONE plus a modified " Six Pak" for redundancy. The modified aspect
involves substituting the DIGITRAK'S electronic DG presentation for a stand
alone DG. The downside of this poor man's DG is that it requires GPS input
from the EFIS engine. I mention this in that the two sources are tied
together.
Inclusion of the equipment mentioned in my first E-Mail on the load of my
E-Bus would make me feel warm and fuzzy if I have to operate in IFR. Putting
your E-Bus on a diet really makes you think...Especially when most of the
load is in the EFIS. With this as the case I was glad to receive your
comment that an SD-8 would support the EFIS with a 14 AWG/15 AMP fuse...I
assume that a 20 AMP Aux Alternator would therefore allow inclusion of the
Art. Horizon too. This would alter wire and fuse size slightly.
Your comment on the mini Contactor for the fat wire E-Bus supply is a good
one . Do you have a specific model in mind ? Isn't the model you mentioned
designed for the SD-8 ?Would a standard Battery Conractor work ?
Thanks so much for your insight and valuable assistance,
Dick Jordan
Malvern,Pa.
RV- 8A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up)
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> > >#1: Blue Mt. Suggests 10 AMP circuit but they advise normal load @ 4
AMPS.
> > >
> > >#2:Starting load shown; reduces to 1.2 AMPS after spooling up.
> > >
> > >#3: Xmit load shown;Receive @ .7 AMPS.
> > >
> > >If you reduce by the factors in the notes the load should be approx 12
AMPS.
> >
> > If you're really wanting the e-bus to be an endurance bus, then
> > I'd put the horizon gyro and EFIS on the main bus. Recall that
> > the purpose of the e-bus is to maximize use of limited resource
> > in the en route mode of flight. If you've suffered some kind of
> > failure that makes the e-bus most valuable, then you want to
> > get into the "Apollo 13" en route mode of power utilization until
> > you've got airport in sight. I suspect the autopilot in a
> > smooth air mode draws less than 3A average. Nav/Com will be
> > in the receive mode 99% of the time. 0.8A is too much for
lighting.
>
>
>
> Dick, I forgot to ask if you are an all-electric airplane and if
> you plan a second alternator. IF you plan at least an SD-8 on
> the vacuum pump pad, then the e-bus can be planned for a larger
> continuous load than you would for battery only.
>
> With the SD-8, you could power the EFIS from the e-bus. The
> alternate feed wire/fuse goes up to 14AWG/15A
>
> Even with the earlier suggestion of 16AWG/10A, or the SD-8
> supported 14AWG/15A combination, consider adding an S704-1
> relay or equal to the system to control the e-bus alternate
> feed path from the battery bus end . . . sort of a mini-battery
> contactor.
>
> As a rule of thumb, we try to avoid always-hot feeders breakered
> at more than 5A . . . since fuses are so much faster, we could
> stretch that to 7A which will supply most folks e-bus with a
> reasonably sized, always-hot wire from battery bus.
>
> It's a good idea to provide a disconnect right at the battery
> bus for alternate feeds larger than 7A.
>
> I published a drawing of this some months ago for someone but
> until my server gets back up, I can't point you to it. Will
> follow up on this later today.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude |
hold
>
>Anxiously awaiting my book which I ordered mid last week.
>And I will do my homework as soon as I get it.
>Thanks
>
>Mike Stewart
A big stack of books went out Tuesday. I'm pretty
sure that caught up all the orders. Yours should
have been in that stack.
In the mean time, you might want to fabricate
a 12v dry battery from a couple of cheapie 6v
lantern batteries from Wallmart (you can often
buy a lantern AND battery for less than the
cost of a battery alone).
A stand-alone, super-clean source of power
is very handy in helping isolate noise
propagation pathways on the bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads |
Just got off the phone with Nova's tech guy and he pulled up the Aeroflash strobe
specs and indeed the 90 watt X-Pac looks like it's a little hot for these.
Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their
EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the
10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus
you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :)
It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules
*total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get
away with double 10 jouled ones??
All said and done it's about $305 for this setup which is a lot nicer than $772
for the Whelans and $430 for the Aeroflashes (with their supply).
Don't want to get caught in the TANSTAAFL so what am I missing here?
Thanks.
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tri-positon switch location |
> >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch
that
> >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in
the
> >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have
a
> >good link to an 8x1 lcd display?
>
> I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by
> B&C as their S700-2-7 at:
Not really, while it has a (on)-off-(on), it would also to have a push for
an (on). it is a knob compared to a toggle switch. In the digi-key catalog
there is something similar digi-key part# 401-1264-1-nd I would like to
replace two switches with this one, one would be the s700-2-7 and athe
other is a single (on)-off switch.
Bob
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sigma Eta Aero" <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904
This supply reduces output power when only two outlets are activated.
Does this mean it actually delivers less than the 45 watts per head???
>
I talked to the folks at Nova and this is true. They told me if I was only
using two flash tubes that the XPac 604 would be a better choice as it does
not reduce power when only 2 tubes are used. Don't know if the aeroflash
tubes will stand the extra power but the Whelen tubes will, or at least
should. Use the money saved by using the XPac 604 to buy the Whelen tubes.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads |
Ok, spank me. I looked back through the archives again and noticed this time that
it seems like 20 joules *per flash* is the req.
Still, it would take a pretty picky inspector to look at a set of Aeroflashes strobe/nav/pos
lights and not sign the plane off for night VFR. Plus you could
honestly tell the inspector that the system is putting out over 20 joules (both
wings).
Joa
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their
EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the
10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus
you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :)
It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules
*total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get away
with double 10 jouled ones??
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EddyFernan(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | MAC elevator trim rocker switch |
Bob & list,
Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a
problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down.
One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while
trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down position.
Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B &
C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a different
feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance.
What would be a precaution for this?
Eddy Fernandez
RV-9a
Wiring & more wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Brusehaver <cozytom(at)mn.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash |
heads
What I have done is bought the whelen wingtip units
from Chief Aircraft on their specials page ($299/pr)
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Aircraft.html
then I went on e-bay and bought a Whelen CPS-660
supply ($89).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3624617484&category=395
That put my strobes at $388 plus shipping.
This gets me an all Whelen setup.
I didn't get the CPS690, since it uses 7Amps, where the
660 only needs 4amps. I don't remember the Joules, but
it was the same or more than the Whelen aircraft supply.
Sigma Eta Aero wrote:
>
> Just got off the phone with Nova's tech guy and he pulled up the Aeroflash strobe
specs and indeed the 90 watt X-Pac looks like it's a little hot for these.
>
> Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their
EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up
the 10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans.
Plus you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :)
>
> It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules
*total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get
away with double 10 jouled ones??
>
> All said and done it's about $305 for this setup which is a lot nicer than $772
for the Whelans and $430 for the Aeroflashes (with their supply).
>
> Don't want to get caught in the TANSTAAFL so what am I missing here?
>
> Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch |
Is the ACS switch grounded to its own housing? I mean, is the ground
connector on the back of the switch continuous with the housing, and thereby
connected to the panel the switch is installed in?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch
>
> >
> >
> >For wiring a Rotax 912 with the ACS A-510-2 switch (Page 381 in Spruce
> >catalog) do any of the terminals have to be jumpered (IOW is either of
the
> >magnetos a retard breaker or have impulse coupling type features)?
> >
> >
> >Also, I assume that you would run the shielding from both mags to the
> >ground terminal (term 5) and then NOT run a ground from this to the
> >firewall grounding block (but ground each cable shield individually at
the
> >ignition block), right?
>
> Yes, wire exactly as shown in Figure Z-16
>
>
> >The only thing that cornfuses me about this single point grounding
> >technique is that when the engine is running the mags are ungrounded
> >anyway so why does it make a difference?
>
> Single point grounding for noise control
> is not related to ignition control. You want
> to use the shields as ground for the switch and
> ground shields at the engine end only.
>
>
> >Also, I assume I should use the diode supplied with the ACS switch (when
> >wiring per Z-16)?
>
> No, the reasoning behind that diode is bogus.
> See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
>
> Put a diode across your contactor coil if it's not already
> there. The diode supplied with the switch will be fine.
> Adding it across the switch per ACS instructions adds
> no value.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC elevator trim rocker switch |
>
>Bob & list,
>
>Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a
>problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down.
Yes, and I know of a Kitfox that got totaled on takeoff
due to the MAC rocker sticking. Seems the plastic rocker was
not well centered in the housing.
>One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while
>trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down
>position.
>
>Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B &
>C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a
>different
>feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance.
>
>What would be a precaution for this?
First, during flight testing make sure that there are
mechanical limits to trim authority that will keep
trim from exerting more authority than necessary.
Then, experiment to see how far out of trim you can
still handle the airplane. Can you deal competently
with a trim-in-limits condition?
Bizjets often use two switches on electric trim. Both
switches have to be activated (usually a trim enable
+ trim direction) for the trim to move. This isn't something
you need to deal with right away. Get the airplane flying
first. Make the establishment of hard mechanical stops
a priority for flight testing. Then do some tests at altitude
to see how the airplane handles should the trim actuator run
to either stop.
Make some flights where you trim for cruise at aft
cg and then land the airplane without changing the trim.
Make a measurement of trim mechanism position. Then see
how much further it will go into nose down position. That
EXTRA movement is the operationally useless and dangerous
part. Do the same thing after trimming for approach speed
with max forward CG. Then see how much excess motion you
have in the nose up direction. Design mechanical stops
to physically prevent motion beyond the necessary and
useful extremes. This will probably take care of all your
worries about trim runaway.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus |
(follow up)
>
>Bob,
> I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual
>alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS.
Okay, if your standby alternator is that big, why not
eliminate the e-bus? Z-14 with a small battery for the
second alternator lets you take advantage of he fully
stand-alone systems with very little weight penalty
over Z-12. Further, I presume your EFIS is one of those
products not designed to live in the read world and needs
it's own battery support during engine cranking anyhow.
See the EFIS/FADEC version of z-14 at
http://216.55.140.222/temp/z14_FADEC.pdf
This version does not automatically close the cross-feed
contactor for cranking but still allows a healthy cross-feed
capability during alternator out operations. Put all your
ugly, no-value-added en route loads on the main bus and
panel goodies on the aux bus. E-bus goes away along
with all attendant concerns for always-hot feedpaths,
diode heatsinks, etc.
The whole idea behind the e-bus was a step up for
single-alternator/single-battery systems to avoid
becoming a star performer in one of those dark-n-stormy-night
stories. Given that your second alternator is
so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the
aux battery is a small one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus |
(follow up)
>
>Bob,
> I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual
>alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS.
Okay, if your standby alternator is that big, why not
eliminate the e-bus? Z-14 with a small battery for the
second alternator lets you take advantage of he fully
stand-alone systems with very little weight penalty
over Z-12. Further, I presume your EFIS is one of those
products not designed to live in the read world and needs
it's own battery support during engine cranking anyhow.
See the EFIS/FADEC version of z-14 at
http://216.55.140.222/temp/z14_FADEC.pdf
This version does not automatically close the cross-feed
contactor for cranking but still allows a healthy cross-feed
capability during alternator out operations. Put all your
ugly, no-value-added en route loads on the main bus and
panel goodies on the aux bus. E-bus goes away along
with all attendant concerns for always-hot feedpaths,
diode heatsinks, etc.
The whole idea behind the e-bus was a simple step-up for
single-alternator/single-battery systems to avoid
becoming a star performer in one of those dark-n-stormy-night
stories. Given that your second alternator is
so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the
aux battery is a small one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: tri-positon switch location |
>
>
> > >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch
>that
> > >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in
>the
> > >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have
>a
> > >good link to an 8x1 lcd display?
> >
> > I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by
> > B&C as their S700-2-7 at:
>Not really, while it has a (on)-off-(on), it would also to have a push for
>an (on). it is a knob compared to a toggle switch. In the digi-key catalog
>there is something similar digi-key part# 401-1264-1-nd I would like to
>replace two switches with this one, one would be the s700-2-7 and athe
>other is a single (on)-off switch.
That's a pretty cheezy switch for the cockpit environment.
What are you wanting to control with it?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | : MAC elevator trim rocker switch |
| From: | Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net> |
This question comes up a lot, and is a very valid question to ask IMHO. I
have had no problems with the switch sticking (1225 hrs) even though I have
it mounted between the seats where it collects a lot of debris and gets
jarred. I believe the situation you describe could be easily controlled by
slowing down and countering with stick force. I can't say for sure as it is
difficult to duplicate the circumstance in flight and properly allow for the
muddled factor. It is also possible the trim motor could be stopped by
applying up trim, (which would add plus volts to the other wire?).
Notwithstanding this I did eventually install a pullable circuit breaker for
the elevator trim. It is a protruding thing a little different than the
other CBs in my row and easy to grab with either hand. Also I highly
recommend using Matronics speed controller which allows you to have as many
different switches as you want. The utility of these is you have an
alternate if a wire breaks (which I have had happen a couple times. Be sure
and use AWG 22 for any wire runs subject to motion.)
I can vouch for the controllability of taking off with full nose down and
full nose up. This is not a difficult flight test, and in both cases the
delay factor was real due to the inadvertent nature of the test.
Good luck and hope this helps.
Denis
Homecoming was a great trip. I left before the banquet so can't comment on
that, but the other meal gatherings were great, and well conducted.
> From: EddyFernan(at)aol.com
> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:23:39 EDT
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAC elevator trim rocker switch
>
>
> Bob & list,
>
> Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a
> problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down.
>
> One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while
> trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down
> position.
>
> Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B &
> C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a different
> feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance.
>
> What would be a precaution for this?
>
> Eddy Fernandez
> RV-9a
> Wiring & more wiring
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tri-positon switch location |
> > > >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type
switch
> >that
> > > >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked
in
> >the
> > > >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone
have
> >a
> > > >good link to an 8x1 lcd display?
> > >
> > > I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by
> > > B&C as their S700-2-7 at:
> >Not really, while it has a (on)-off-(on), it would also to have a push
for
> >an (on). it is a knob compared to a toggle switch. In the digi-key
catalog
> >there is something similar digi-key part# 401-1264-1-nd I would like to
> >replace two switches with this one, one would be the s700-2-7 and athe
> >other is a single (on)-off switch.
>
> That's a pretty cheezy switch for the cockpit environment.
> What are you wanting to control with it?
>
That is why I am looking for a better one than that found in digi-key. The
ideal switch would be like the one that is on the ASA flight timer. In
fact, with my micro processor, I have built one like the ASA Flight timer
that has clocks , timers, volts, amps along with a network built-in . This
with other units will talk to a central microprocessor for data storage ala
black box type.
Bob
So the ideal switch would be a left/right to set parameters and push to set
type function.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus |
(follow up)
>
>Bob,
> I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual
>alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS.
Okay, if your standby alternator is that big, why not
eliminate the e-bus? Z-14 with a small battery for the
second alternator lets you take advantage of he fully
stand-alone systems with very little weight penalty
over Z-12. Further, I presume your EFIS is one of those
products not designed to live in the read world and needs
it's own battery support during engine cranking anyhow.
See the EFIS/FADEC version of z-14 at
http://216.55.140.222/temp/z14_FADEC.pdf
This version does not automatically close the cross-feed
contactor for cranking but still allows a healthy cross-feed
capability during alternator out operations. Put all your
ugly, no-value-added en route loads on the main bus and
panel goodies on the aux bus. E-bus goes away along
with all attendant concerns for always-hot feedpaths,
diode heatsinks, etc.
The whole idea behind the e-bus was a step up for
single-alternator/single-battery systems to avoid
becoming a star performer in one of those dark-n-stormy-night
stories. Given that your second alternator is
so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the
aux battery is a small one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch |
>
>
>Is the ACS switch grounded to its own housing? I mean, is the ground
>connector on the back of the switch continuous with the housing, and thereby
>connected to the panel the switch is installed in?
That's an easy thing to check with an ohmmeter . . . but
the last time I looked at one, all contacts were isolated
from case which is as it should be . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | tri-positon switch location |
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
> So the ideal switch would be a left/right to set parameters
> and push to set type function.
Sounds like a job for a rotary encoder. That what most of these devices use, and
most encoders have a momentary pushbutton.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Reiter <reitersbb(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Antenna Placement |
Im sure this has been talked about before but I cant find what Im looking for in
the archives. On an RV how far apart should my antennas be. Im looking at
2 Comm Antennas under seats & Nav Antenna under horizontal stabilizer. Can my
marker beacon ant. be close to the comm antennas? I'd like to put it between
them under the seats. How far does the Transponder antenna need to be from others?
Thanks in advance
Brian
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mstewart(at)qa.butler.com |
| Subject: | MAC elevator trim rocker switch |
autolearn=ham version=2.53
Happened to me in my rv at cruise. Although it was not the mac rocker
switch, it was a micro switch in my passenger stick. Trim went to the stops
before I could get the breaker pulled.
I slowed down very quickly, and the stick force was as strong as I have ever
had any stick force.
I landed, disconnected the pass stick, and pressed on.
Mike Stewart
Rv-6a
-----Original Message-----
From: EddyFernan(at)aol.com [mailto:EddyFernan(at)aol.com]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAC elevator trim rocker switch
Bob & list,
Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a
problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down.
One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while
trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down
position.
Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B &
C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a
different
feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance.
What would be a precaution for this?
Eddy Fernandez
RV-9a
Wiring & more wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bob's solution is pretty much what we are planning - Z-14 with no crossfeed
for starting. We will have an EFIS and a FADEC. One channel of the fadec is
on the #2 electrical system, as are all of the avionics, including EFIS.
#1 Battery and alternator will be on for start and the #2 battery only on
line for start. This looks suspiciously like an avionics bus with its own
switch. :-)). This will enable the EFIS to be available, if desired, for
start and one channel of the FADEC will have normal battery voltage for
starting. Once the engine is started and stable, we'll bring the #2
alternator on line. For the time being, we'll try to use a 17AH RG battery
for starting (#1) and the same battery for the #2 to keep Bob's rotation
scheme.
Love that Z-14!
Bob: Did you ever get some data and info from Aerosance on the FADEC?
John
> Given that your second alternator is
> so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the
> aux battery is a small one.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Kuc" <bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: tri-positon switch location |
>
> > So the ideal switch would be a left/right to set parameters
> > and push to set type function.
>
> Sounds like a job for a rotary encoder. That what most of these devices
use, and most encoders have a momentary pushbutton.
>
Yes, I have seen some rotary encoders however I do not recall the push part
of it or the ones that have (mom) left and (mom) right and (mom) push. My
ford radio has a rotary encoder. Continuous right or left for volume and
then push to turn it on/off.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 |
The Nova X-Pac 904 will reduce the power to the strobe
heads if only two outlets are activated, but it can
be tricked into delivering full power to two heads
according to the engineer at Nova.
Emergency vehicle strobe heads cannot handle as much
energy as the Whelen aviation heads, so the power
reducing feature is incorporated to avoid damaging the
standard 20 Watt automotive heads.
To override this feature, program the power supply as
though you are driving four heads (two pairs of two)
and hook up each strobe to one of the pair outputs,
i.e. Quad Flash, 1 & 3 alt 2 &4. Hook up one strobe
to output 1 and the other to output 4. This gives
full power (45 Watts) to each head. If desired, you
can wire up a switch to allow selection of a low power
(two head) mode.
Obviously you only want to do this if you are using
the Whelen aviation heads. If using the lower power
Aeroflash or automotive heads, save money and buy the
lower power 604 (or similar) supply.
BTW, as someone else mentioned, Chief has the Whelen
all-in-one heads on sale right now. Good deal if you
can consider any Whelen aviation item a "good deal".
Mike
RV-6A
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Placement |
>
>Im sure this has been talked about before but I cant find what Im looking
>for in the archives. On an RV how far apart should my antennas be. Im
>looking at 2 Comm Antennas under seats & Nav Antenna under horizontal
>stabilizer.
From a performance perspective, radiation patterns in the
horizontal plane will be most affected by close spacing
of two antennas in the same frequency range. So two
comm antennas want to be as far apart as practical. All
other antennas (mb 75mHz, vor back in tail, transponder 1030 mHz)
are in no particular position to affect each other either
because of physical distance and/or frequency difference.
>Can my marker beacon ant. be close to the comm antennas?
yes
> I'd like to put it between them under the seats. How far does the
> Transponder antenna need to be from others?
From a practical perspective, a wet string hung out
the window will communicate with a station closer
than the horizon. Put them where they fit best
and you have a 99% chance of satisfactory performance.
The major hardware risk comes from getting comm antennas
so close together that there is major power coupling during
transmit on one radio to the receiver front end on the
other radio . . . you can pop the receiver's input
transistor. But anything over a foot apart will be fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | tri-positon switch location |
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
> > > So the ideal switch would be a left/right to set parameters
> > > and push to set type function.
> >
> > Sounds like a job for a rotary encoder. That what most of
> > these devices use, and most encoders have a momentary pushbutton.
> >
> Yes, I have seen some rotary encoders however I do not recall
> the push part of it or the ones that have (mom) left and (mom)
> right and (mom) push. My ford radio has a rotary encoder.
> Continuous right or left for volume and then push to turn it
> on/off.
Just be aware that unless you use an optical encoder (Grayhill sells these through
DigiKey, plan on $40 or so) the signals they put out are typically fairly
"dirty" and their reliability often isn't very high. For low-voltage low-amperage
signals such as configuration settings on a GPS unit they're fine, especially
with debounce circuitry. But I sure as heck wouldn't use one to control my
electronic ignition system.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Guys, I did quite a bit of research before getting the XPak 904 and documented
it in nauseating detail in the RV List archives, search for "cometflash on a beer
budget". There were 2 or 3 posts with this subject line which will probably
answer all your questions and some you haven't thought of yet : ) No reason
to say it all over again here, but a few points of interest:
You're correct that the Aeroflash bulbs cannot handle the output of the 904....based
on their specs it would burn them up pretty fast. Go with Whelen heads...I
got 'em cheap at a salvage yard (strobes usually survive airplane accidents,
so they have lots laying around).
Yes these commercial power supplies have lots of neato strobe patterns but not
all of them are legal for aircraft use. The regs spell out the acceptable flash
rates (and I quoted them in the aformentioned archived material). If I recall
correctly, the Xpak 904's "low power" mode had an unacceptably high flash
rate so I would not use it.
As for reducing the power output when only two strobe heads are installed, this
depends on how you configure it. The 904 *can be* configured for full output
meant for 4 strobes into only two strobes, which is the beauty of it, because
the Whelen heads can handle this amount of energy (it's the same as what they
get from Whelen's top of the line power supply, the HDA-CF Cometflash system).
If you get a different power supply, you're on your own for making sure it meets
the requirements and is compatible with the heads you're driving for power,
flash rate, etc. NOVA has excellent customer support and the archived stuff I
wrote a couple years ago is based on lengthy discussions with Eugene Able at
NOVA.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D in painting hell...
From: Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads
Just got off the phone with Nova's tech guy and he pulled up the Aeroflash strobe
specs and indeed the 90 watt X-Pac looks like it's a little hot for these.
Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their
EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the
10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus
you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :)
It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules
*total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get
away with double 10 jouled ones??
All said and done it's about $305 for this setup which is a lot nicer than $772
for the Whelans and $430 for the Aeroflashes (with their supply).
Don't want to get caught in the TANSTAAFL so what am I missing here?
Thanks.
Joa
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Darrah" <RDarrah(at)austin.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC trim servo runaway |
I have one solution for handling a MAC trim runaway. I have installed a
double pole, (on)-off-on switch in the power line that serves all three
servos. Would normally be in the on position.
In the event of a runaway, turn off the servo. It will probably have gone
to hard over before you recognize the problem and do something about it.
Now, put the switch to the (on) position reverses the power to the servos
and the stuck servo will start running the other way. When it gets about
where you want it, release, servo stops, and you can continue on.
Works great on the bench.
Bob Darrah
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorto1537(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | MAC elevator trim rocker switch |
I've got a trim and wing leveler disconnect relay that is controlled
by a red button next to the trim coolie hat on my Infinity stick
grip. That should minimize the time it takes me to cut power to the
trim once I recognize the problem. The procedure will be to press
and hold the red button, turn off the trim power, then release the
button.
I'll also be doing flight testing to establish where the limits to
trim travel should be, and to assess the stick forces and workload
required to deal with a runaway to those limits.
Kevin Horton
>
>Happened to me in my rv at cruise. Although it was not the mac rocker
>switch, it was a micro switch in my passenger stick. Trim went to the stops
>before I could get the breaker pulled.
>
>I slowed down very quickly, and the stick force was as strong as I have ever
>had any stick force.
>
>I landed, disconnected the pass stick, and pressed on.
>
>Mike Stewart
>Rv-6a
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EddyFernan(at)aol.com [mailto:EddyFernan(at)aol.com]
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAC elevator trim rocker switch
>
>
>Bob & list,
>
>Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a
>problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down.
>
>One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while
>trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down
>position.
>
>Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B &
>C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a
>different
>feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance.
>
>What would be a precaution for this?
>
>Eddy Fernandez
>RV-9a
>Wiring & more wiring
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Altitude encoder recommendation? |
I check with the ACK marketing folks on this. Here is the reply:
>The model A-30 mod 4 provides only gray code. The mod 8 units provide two
RS 232 outputs along >with gray code. I believe the Garmin 430 and 327 both
accept gray code.
>Mike Akatiff
Indiana with Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Wessel" <Robin.Wessel(at)verizon.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Altitude encoder recommendation?
>
> I would check out the new version of the venerable ACK A-30 encoder. The
> new version has serial + gray code for the same price. When you buy make
> sure it has mod 4 (ser#85,000 or above).
>
> http://www.ackavionics.com/
>
> robin wessel
> tigard, OR
> RV-6A
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bob's server costs |
Bob
I would gladly like to send a donation to help with the increase in server
costs.
I am sure that others would also contribute to the cause and maybe you could
also upgrade your list computer and a home server.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | electric trim failure modes |
<switch, it was a micro switch in my passenger stick. Trim went to the stops
>before I could get the breaker pulled.>>
It might not relate to that problem exactly, but on my S-Tec 60 the trim
switch is actually two switches side-by-side with two "handles" that you
push at the same time. Each switch runs one side of the motor, reducing the
probability that both would fail at the same time. If one does fail and you
push the switch in the opposite direction a short is created which opens the
breaker. I plan to use that design, but I don't know what to do about a
second control at the co-pilot's position. Cessna assumes the copilot would
use the manual wheel.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Bob's server costs |
>
>Bob
>
>I would gladly like to send a donation to help with the increase in server
>costs.
>I am sure that others would also contribute to the cause and maybe you could
>also upgrade your list computer and a home server.
>
>Steve
I'd like to thank all of those who have come forward
with offers of support both privately and on the list.
I'm sure all of you know Matt Dralle and are aware of
the nature of his support to the OBAM aircraft community.
Matt and I have been talking about solutions using his
servers that won't tax his capability and will ultimately
divert cash flow that supports aeroelectic.com presense
on the 'net to matronics.com.
This seems to be a better solution for all because it
builds on reserves of a resource with proven capabilities
and doesn't dilute potential for financial support of
matronics.com
I'm going to be working this in stages. I am co-owner
of the server wherein aeroelectric.com present resides.
I don't want to bail on my partner in that venture.
In due course, I'll be installing two new websites
on the present server . . . both very low volume in
comparison to aeroelectric.com.
In the interim, Matt has set up some drive space that
I'll use as a "library" for the very large files
I've had to take down from aeroelectric.com
It will take me a few day to get re-organized
but I wanted everyone to know that a practical and
pleasant solution is at hand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Todd" <motodd(at)worldnet.att.net> |
| Subject: | Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer |
Walt,
Here's one solution that worked for me. I bought a 30 PSI oil switch
(Pegasus Auto was my source- good quality, rated for 100 psi continuous,
peak 500- about $15 as I recall) that I tee'd off my oil pressure
transducer and hooked it to a warning light on my panel. If my oil
pressure goes below 30 (perhaps you'd prefer a 40 psi switch), a big red
warning light comes on. At shutdown, it comes on about the same time
the prop stops (unlike 0 psi switch that can take several more
seconds-long enough for me to get out of the plane with the master still
on). The 30 psi switch/warning light is a good reminder for me to turn
off the master and it adds to in flight safety.
Maybe not the most sophisticated solution, but cheap and very effective.
I haven't left my master switch on since I installed it about 800 hours
ago. Before that....don't ask.
Of course, steel fittings should be used if you tee in this switch on
the engine.
Mark
RV4
From: RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer
Bob, any ideas about a cheap/easy solution to the problem of leaving the
master on and running down the battery? I just did it today, and it's a
pain in
th posterior. Like many homebuilts, my RV-8A has toggle switches for
the
master and L mag/elect. ignition, so it's easy to forgot to flip the
master off
(for me at least).
Avtek has a nice unit called the "1st Alert" but it's kinda pricy at
$160.
It's main job is to alert you to a bad alternator, broken alternator
belt, etc.,
but any negative flow from the battery makes the panel light flash.
Another question is do you have any suggestions or recommendations for
an
externally mounted power plug to be used to jump start an a/c with low
battery?
Walt Shipley RV-8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z11 Current Limiter |
| From: | Jim Daniels <jwdanie(at)comcast.net> |
Figure Z11 shows an ANL60 alternator current limiter. Should this be
an ANL40 with the B&C 40A alternator, or should it remain a 60A
limiter? By the way, I couldn't find Note 10 in the 11/01 Appendix Z
updates.
Regards,
Jim Daniels
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer |
Listers,
Mark Todd has presented a good solution to the "master switch on" problem. I did
the same thing for "headlights on" with my 1965 Corvair years ago. The positive
end of a Mallory Sonalert was connected to the switched side of the headlight
switch and the negative to the oil pressure switch. If it beeped on a turn,
time to put in more oil! Also saved the battery. I always ran with my headlights
on for safety, having seen too many accidents in the ER in medical school.
The 30# switch is an additional level of warning that should prove useful. Thanks,
Mark.
Jim Foerster, J400, 50%......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Ground |
I am installing a Honda part #14184, 35 amp alternator on my airplane. One of the
spades on the plug is for a ground wire. I know it wont hurt ( will probably
only help) to connect it to my ground bus, but is is required for proper alternator
operation?
Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Design notes on the MAC 8 trimmer and its conversion to a true servo is on my website:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/mac8trim.zip
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"The man who carries a cat by the tail
learns something that can be learned
in no other way."
--Mark Twain
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Ground |
>
>I am installing a Honda part #14184, 35 amp alternator on my airplane. One
>of the spades on the plug is for a ground wire. I know it wont hurt ( will
>probably only help) to connect it to my ground bus, but is is required for
>proper alternator operation?
Not necessary. Your alternator will ground nicely through
the mounting hardware. You do need a nice fat ground
wire from crankcase to firewall ground stud.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electric trim failure modes |
>
>< >switch, it was a micro switch in my passenger stick. Trim went to the stops
> >before I could get the breaker pulled.>>
>
>It might not relate to that problem exactly, but on my S-Tec 60 the trim
>switch is actually two switches side-by-side with two "handles" that you
>push at the same time. Each switch runs one side of the motor, reducing the
>probability that both would fail at the same time. If one does fail and you
>push the switch in the opposite direction a short is created which opens the
>breaker. I plan to use that design, but I don't know what to do about a
>second control at the co-pilot's position. Cessna assumes the copilot would
>use the manual wheel.
KingAirs use a "twin switch" arranged such that each
side is one pole of the center-off, two-pole reversing
switch. Both switches are operated together to command (nose-up)-off-
(nose-dn) trim. It is deduced very unlikely that both switches
would fail at the same time to produce un-commanded motion.
Each switch is easily tested in pre-flight to show that operation of
a single switch produces no trim motion.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Miniature Switches |
I am hoping to use all miniature switches on my panel. Can anyone tell me where/if
I can locate 2-3, 2-5 2-50 switches?
Thanks,
Grant Krueger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Question |
I have one Taxi/Landing light on my airplane - They are two separate bulbs right
next to each other. Would there be any visibility improvement from a Wig-Wag
installation? I'm very inclined to think not but wanted to hear what y'all had
to say.
Thanks again,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Question |
I have the same setup, 2 MR16 halogen bulbs about 5 inches away from each
other in the nose of my airplane. I'm going to use an HID Par36 on a gear
leg as a landing light, and use the halogens as recognition lights. I was
planning on doing them both on/both off, but I'd love to hear what the
group has to say.
>
>I have one Taxi/Landing light on my airplane - They are two separate bulbs
>right next to each other. Would there be any visibility improvement from a
>Wig-Wag installation? I'm very inclined to think not but wanted to hear
>what y'all had to say.
>
> Thanks again,
> Grant
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Forward:Alternator craziness |
I'm forwarding this from the canard aviator's mailing list, hoping someone
here can figure this one out. If we come up with anything good I'll
forward it (Backward it?) back to the CA list.
===========================
From: "sardella92708" <sardella92708(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: [c-a] Alternator craziness
Dear Group,
My over-voltage relay keeps on tripping right after take-off. I get
about 400 feet up and it trips. I can't seem to duplicate the
problem on the ground. At a full power run-up, no problem,
everything is normal. I even tried testing it this way with my radios
and transponder on, and it works normal on the ground. As soon as I
go flying, it trips, and keeps on tripping after I keep on reseting
it. I was more intermittent the first time it started tripping only
about an hours worth of hobbs time ago. I'm picking at straws now,
thinking that when air blows through the alternator in flight, that
there may be a winding or something shorting. Any comments would be
appreciated, because I hate to remove the alternator unnecessarily.
Thanks in advance.
Jim
N81EJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z11 Current Limiter |
>
>Figure Z11 shows an ANL60 alternator current limiter. Should this be
>an ANL40 with the B&C 40A alternator, or should it remain a 60A
>limiter?
Would be better as an ANL40 . . . B&C Stocks them.
> By the way, I couldn't find Note 10 in the 11/01 Appendix Z
>updates.
That's a clean-up item on the drawings. Note 9 is the one
dealing with current limiters . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Question |
>
>I have the same setup, 2 MR16 halogen bulbs about 5 inches away from each
>other in the nose of my airplane. I'm going to use an HID Par36 on a gear
>leg as a landing light, and use the halogens as recognition lights. I was
>planning on doing them both on/both off, but I'd love to hear what the
>group has to say.
Human visual acuity for high contrast objects (two lights with some
VERY much darker stuff between them) is about 2 arc minutes of subtended
angle. If your bulbs are, say 4" in diameter with 5" spacing, the
pattern from max to min brightness has a distance of 4.5"
For an oncoming observer to perceive that wig-wag'ed lights
with this spacing to be perceived as actually two, independently
flashing lights, he would have to be something on the order of
600' away. On the other hand, wig-wagged lights on opposite wing
tips are about 30' apart. These will be perceived as separate lights
at a distance of nearly 10 miles.
A simple on-off flasher for one lamp would be a much stronger
attention grabbing action than wig-wagging the two lamps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Miniature Switches |
>
>I am hoping to use all miniature switches on my panel. Can anyone tell me
>where/if I can locate 2-3, 2-5 2-50 switches?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant Krueger
This has been done. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/miniswitches.jpg
This is the panel of either a Q2 or Dragonfly where
the builder has used miniature switches. He reports
"no problems" for about 200 hours of service.
His landing and taxi lights were 55W Halogen
mini-reflector lamps like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/MVC-007W.JPG
You'll further note that magnetos are not controlled
by these switches.
From a pure service-life perspective, these switches
will probably do well enough for him in his situation.
Larger lamps, larger loads like pitot heaters, and higher
voltage applications like magneto p-leads, will push these
switches very hard. I don't recommend them without adding
relays to buffer the switches from killer loads . . . and
that drives up parts count.
The full range of functional equivalents of the full
size toggle switches are available from companies like
C&K. See:
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/Leaf/SW_toggle_7000.pdf
Now, let's see what might be gained by using miniature
switches. Download and print:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/MINIvsFULL.pdf
Here are two switch clusters side by side using full sized
and miniature toggles. If you're going to adopt a fairly
well observed practice of limiting panel lettering to no
smaller than .1", then you can see that there is perhaps
a 20% reduction in panel real estate required should one
drop the switches to half size.
My recommendation would be to stay with the much more
robust, full sized devices with a solid track record that
goes back to day-one in the history of aircraft
electrics. You won't be sorry you did. I can't vouch
for the alternative and certainly wouldn't bet much
on them in power/voltage handling tasks common to
the systems were building.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" guide several years ago and it's
>been a big help. I'm restoring a 1947 Stinson, from the ground up, and
>have run into an antenna problem that I'm sure you will be able to shed
>some light on. The airplane originally had a NARCO VHT-3 "Superhomer"
>when purchase in 1965.
Do you still have the old radio? I'd sure like to have one
for my "museum" . . .
> It has a diapole VOR antenna mounted at the top portion of the vertical
> stabilizer (similar to the one pictured on page 13-11, top figure, of
> your guide). My quandry is how to connect the RG cable to the
> antenna. The original cable had what I'd call a somewhat unorthodox
> antenna connection. The cable ground was separated with a loop of the
> insulated inner core wire showing. Each side of the separated shielded
> ground was attached to a lug of the antenna. The center loop was held in
> place with a bold and insulated covering, mounted in between the two lugs.
>The cable was folded over some 12 inches and fastened to the vertical
>stabilizer.
>My question is: Is it correct to connect the shielding ground to one lug
>and the center stranded core wire to the other lug? Strain relief will be
>provided. This would be similar to your connection shown on page 13-16 of
>the Guide.
>I will be installing a new VOR but wish to continue to use the original
>antenna. I'm trying to keep the airplane as "original" as possible for
>when I make my final flight West the airplane goes to the Smithsonian Air
>& Space Museum.
what you're describing is a "balun" . . . a special
treatment of the coax feedline to optimize the performance
of a balanced antenna being driven by an unbalanced feedline.
In practice, the performance difference between the extra
work you've described and simply connecting one leg of antenna
to shield and other to center conductor is difficult to
deduce . . . even with good laboratory equipment.
It's still less important given the performance of modern
solid state receivers.
Hook it up as described in the book and it will be fine.
Recommend you upgrade the original 1940's RG-58 coax
with 1980's RG-400 or RG-142.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdeuchar(at)telusplanet.net |
Hi all,
I'm new to the list and currently building a F1 Rocket (#119).
I'm planning an autopilot (wing leveler and altitude hold) plus electric trim.
I can understand why I need two servos on the aileron (no trim tab), but on the
elevator why will the autopilot not just drive the trim tab motor? I was
thinking something along the lines of putting a relay on the trim motor so that
when the autopilot is active it just bypasses my trim switch.
I'm probably out to lunch, but I have to ask the dumb question. And I am
hoping to shed some weight/simpler installation.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdeuchar(at)telusplanet.net |
| Subject: | Dual battery/single alternator |
Hi all again,
I have been trying to decide whether or not to go with an electric panel or
vacuum system (I'm sure this is one of the hottest discussions on the net these
days).
Just to be different I was thinking about one regular battery for the avionics,
pitot heat etc., and one smaller battery to power the VM1000, AI, TC and DG.
The idea would be that I would install a relay that would automatically close
when there was alternator power, and open when the alternator failed (and light
a low power led). The hope is that I would then have one hour of power to get
me to where I want to go. I'm not planning any hard IFR, but night flight will
be a reality.
Again I'm trying for simplicity and reliability.
Any thoughts to the above?
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim/autopilot |
I think that most trim tab servos work best when you use them to trim out
the forces on the stick/yoke, not as a primary mover of the control surface
that is the function of the autopilot servo. There have been cases with
local builders that if they don't remove the pressure on the surface using
the stick, that the trim tab servo burns out.
Bill Schertz
----- Original Message -----
From: <jdeuchar(at)telusplanet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim/autopilot
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the list and currently building a F1 Rocket (#119).
>
> I'm planning an autopilot (wing leveler and altitude hold) plus electric
trim.
> I can understand why I need two servos on the aileron (no trim tab), but
on the
> elevator why will the autopilot not just drive the trim tab motor? I was
> thinking something along the lines of putting a relay on the trim motor so
that
> when the autopilot is active it just bypasses my trim switch.
>
> I'm probably out to lunch, but I have to ask the dumb question. And I am
> hoping to shed some weight/simpler installation.
>
> Jeff
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual battery/single alternator |
>
>Hi all again,
>
>I have been trying to decide whether or not to go with an electric panel or
>vacuum system (I'm sure this is one of the hottest discussions on the net
>these
>days).
>
>Just to be different I was thinking about one regular battery for the
>avionics,
>pitot heat etc., and one smaller battery to power the VM1000, AI, TC and DG.
>The idea would be that I would install a relay that would automatically close
>when there was alternator power, and open when the alternator failed (and
>light
>a low power led). The hope is that I would then have one hour of power to
>get
>me to where I want to go. I'm not planning any hard IFR, but night flight
>will
>be a reality.
>
>Again I'm trying for simplicity and reliability.
>
>Any thoughts to the above?
Why not plan for enough battery endurance to use up
fuel aboard? This would be at least 3 hours.
Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection?
If not, suggest you download the update chapters
available from:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Review in particular figure Z-13. After reviewing
these options, choose the one that BEST meets your
needs and then let's discuss how it falls short
of exactly meeting your needs.
If you don't have a copy of the 'Connection, I'll
suggest there may be a lot of information you'll
find useful over and above the chapters cited.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
<>
Besides the durability aspect mentioned by Bob, I wonder about the
usability. In automotive panels much study has been done on ergonomics and
the conclusion was that you should separate the switches to make them
identifiable. Also a switch that rotated was easier to use than one that
translated, but that's another story. I plan to put the switches in
user-logical places to make them usable without having to look. I haven't
planned it yet, but for instance, the boost pump switch will be located next
to the mixture control, pitot heat next to the airspeed indicator,
instrument lighting under the glare shield. This complicates the wiring
only a little as each circuit has its own protection anyway. Any comments
on this approach?
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim/autopilot |
>
>I think that most trim tab servos work best when you use them to trim out
>the forces on the stick/yoke, not as a primary mover of the control surface
>that is the function of the autopilot servo. There have been cases with
>local builders that if they don't remove the pressure on the surface using
>the stick, that the trim tab servo burns out.
Mildly out-of-trim operations with an elevator servo
probably won't overtax a modern system. However,
altitude hold systems come in three flavors (1)
electronics will drive your existing trim actuator
or (2) you'll add an elevator servo to the system
and the electronics will "fly" the airplane on the
elevator servo and adjust forces out of that servo
using your trim actuator . . . and (3) elevator
servo only . . . but instructions for operating
the system will no doubt ask that you trim for
zero-force cruising flight before engaging the
autopilot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Question |
Bob et al.
This is exactly the kind of thing that calls for an experiment rather than
(maybe good and erudite) speculation. I would surmise that the result
depends greatly on the beam angle and direction of the lamps. They are not
identical. When a star twinkles it is more noticeable--this does not depend
on having two stars, or the distance, or anything except the way the brain
processes images.
Easy experiment: Park your Jeep Cherokee at one end of the runway with an
observer with videotape if you can at the other end . Cover one headlight
with floor mat. Signal the beginning of the test with three gun shots.
Alternate between high and low beam. Signal the end of the test with three
more gun shots. Get the report from your observer review the videotape.
Okay, I was kidding about the gun shots.
If I had an airplane with one single lamp, like a Europa, I would install an
automobile dual-beam headlamp and use the low for taxi and the high-beam for
landing (maybe both on) and wig-wag them on approach. If the aircraft is
equipped with lights at all, then pulsing their intensity will enhance the
aircraft's visibility. Could this be incorrect?
Truth in lending--Since I sell wig-wags, I have a dog in this contest. I
will sell you the world's best wig-wag with no risk. If you don't love it
return it.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less
obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in
the
universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute
continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
><where/if I can locate 2-3, 2-5 2-50 switches?>>
>
>Besides the durability aspect mentioned by Bob, I wonder about the
>usability. In automotive panels much study has been done on ergonomics and
>the conclusion was that you should separate the switches to make them
>identifiable. Also a switch that rotated was easier to use than one that
>translated, but that's another story. I plan to put the switches in
>user-logical places to make them usable without having to look. I haven't
>planned it yet, but for instance, the boost pump switch will be located next
>to the mixture control, pitot heat next to the airspeed indicator,
>instrument lighting under the glare shield. This complicates the wiring
>only a little as each circuit has its own protection anyway. Any comments
>on this approach?
Hope you'll do an article on this and let us
know how it works out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator craziness |
>
>I'm forwarding this from the canard aviator's mailing list, hoping someone
>here can figure this one out. If we come up with anything good I'll
>forward it (Backward it?) back to the CA list.
>
>===========================
>
>From: "sardella92708" <sardella92708(at)yahoo.com>
>Subject: [c-a] Alternator craziness
>
>Dear Group,
>My over-voltage relay keeps on tripping right after take-off. I get
>about 400 feet up and it trips. I can't seem to duplicate the
>problem on the ground. At a full power run-up, no problem,
>everything is normal. I even tried testing it this way with my radios
>and transponder on, and it works normal on the ground. As soon as I
>go flying, it trips, and keeps on tripping after I keep on reseting
>it. I was more intermittent the first time it started tripping only
>about an hours worth of hobbs time ago. I'm picking at straws now,
>thinking that when air blows through the alternator in flight, that
>there may be a winding or something shorting. Any comments would be
>appreciated, because I hate to remove the alternator unnecessarily.
>Thanks in advance.
>Jim
>N81EJ
There's a very old quotation that speaks to core fundamentals
of systems design and analysis:
"When you can measure what you are speaking about, and
express it in numbers, you know something about it; but
when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it
in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory
kind: it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have
scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science."
-- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin
You need to gather some numbers. What's the bus voltage
doing just prior to and during the trip events? You first
need to determine if (1) the alternator system is unstable
and the ov protection system is doing what it was designed
to do or (2) the ov protection is mis-behaving.
99% of troubleshooting in aviation is done by substituting
parts until the problem goes away. It's possible to know
exactly what needs to be done before turning a wrench . . .
Do you have a voltmeter and/or ammeter in the airplane?
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten(at)quiknet.com> |
| Subject: | Little recognition lights |
I would like to put some halogen recognition lights in the strakes of my Velocity.
The available area to shine them through is structural, so I want to minimize
thhe size of the hole cut in the leading edge; that will make reinforcing
the area around the hole far easier. I see that the small automotive aftermarket
driving/fog lights are built arround MR-16 lamps. I have found MR-11 lamps
(35 watt, 1.38" in diameter) and MR-8 lamps (even smaller!) for sale, but I
haven't found lampholders for these. Can anyone point me to a source for these?
Keith Hallsten
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mstewart(at)qa.butler.com |
autolearn=ham version=2.53
Its been tried. A system called the EZ trim.
I have one in my rv. Major problem is the trim motor is no where near fast
enough to control pitch as necessary. You end up hunting and oscillating
. Try it by hand and see. W/o electronics, only static pressure changes are
in use, and it is too delayed and sluggish for these faster planes. I
suspect on an Aeronca chief, perhaps it might work fine. But I had no luck
with mine. You can read about it here:
http://hometown.aol.com/ccady/eztrim.htm
\ I disabled mine and went with the Altrak unit.
Course I only paid $250 for the ez trim. Was worth a shot but did not work
well.
Mike Stewart
Rv-6a
-----Original Message-----
From: jdeuchar(at)telusplanet.net [mailto:jdeuchar(at)telusplanet.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim/autopilot
Hi all,
I'm new to the list and currently building a F1 Rocket (#119).
I'm planning an autopilot (wing leveler and altitude hold) plus electric
trim.
I can understand why I need two servos on the aileron (no trim tab), but on
the
elevator why will the autopilot not just drive the trim tab motor? I was
thinking something along the lines of putting a relay on the trim motor so
that
when the autopilot is active it just bypasses my trim switch.
I'm probably out to lunch, but I have to ask the dumb question. And I am
hoping to shed some weight/simpler installation.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Slightly off topic...
Have you considered that the proposed placement of recognition
lights will likely preclude their use at night? The lights will
probably shine brightly on the canard of your airplane and cause
quite a bit of glare. Any chance you can mount the lights in the
tips of your canard - good separation and no glare? Apparently,
even the stock Long Ez light location behind the nose gear can be
problematic. There is a window through which the pilot verifies
the gear position. Light reflects off the gear leg and into the
pilot's eyes... If you never fly at it night, its probably not
a big deal.
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
>
>
> I would like to put some halogen recognition lights in the strakes of my
> Velocity. The available area to shine them through is structural, so I
> want to minimize thhe size of the hole cut in the leading edge; that
> will make reinforcing the area around the hole far easier. I see that
> the small automotive aftermarket driving/fog lights are built arround
> MR-16 lamps. I have found MR-11 lamps (35 watt, 1.38" in diameter) and
> MR-8 lamps (even smaller!) for sale, but I haven't found lampholders for
> these. Can anyone point me to a source for these? Keith Hallsten
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Slick mag P-lead continuity |
I just want to confirm that it's normal for a Slick magneto to have internal
continuity between the P-lead and GND terminals.
I hooked up my mag switch (18AWG shielded wire, shield=ground terminal,
center conductor=P-lead, 1-3 switch) and was surprised when I did a
continuity test across the terminals...there's continuity regardless of the
mag switch position.
I guess this makes sense, that the switch is simply
short-circuiting/grounding some internal mag circuit (I'm obviously not too
familiar with the internals), but I want to sanity check this before I plod
along unknowingly with an always-hot or always-cold mag.
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
| From: | Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com> |
Keith Hi!
>
> I would like to put some halogen recognition lights in the strakes of my
> Velocity. The available area to shine them through is structural, so I want
> to minimize thhe size of the hole cut in the leading edge; that will make
> reinforcing the area around the hole far easier. I see that the small
> automotive aftermarket driving/fog lights are built arround MR-16 lamps. I
> have found MR-11 lamps (35 watt, 1.38" in diameter) and MR-8 lamps (even
> smaller!) for sale, but I haven't found lampholders for these. Can anyone
> point me to a source for these?
You might want to look at Hella Inc. for lamps and an alternative solution
in their Daylight Running Lights
They are 6Watt HID and are ideal for crowded lower airspace 'be seen'
visibility. Low power drain with low heat output but good viz.
Not sure if this is what you had in mind.
Dimensions are based on low profile 'rounded' oblong shape in semi circle
lightweight plastic housing. 2" H X 6.5" W X 3.5" Deep
Part No: 2 PT 008 362-801 - 12V
Website: http://www.hella.co.uk/n_press/press2001_07_23.html
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland(at)onetel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Slick mag P-lead continuity |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I asked a similar question on the list a while back... The
p-lead is connected to one side of the primary winding of the
mag coil. The other end of the winding is connected to
ground. If you want to make sure that everything is wired
correctly, you should disconnect the p-lead from the mag and
verify that you have an open circuit (with the switch in the
'run' position) between the two leads. Its probably a good
idea to disconnect the shield side too, and verify that there
is an open between it and your ground bus.
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> I just want to confirm that it's normal for a Slick magneto to have
> internal continuity between the P-lead and GND terminals.
>
> I hooked up my mag switch (18AWG shielded wire, shield=ground terminal,
> center conductor=P-lead, 1-3 switch) and was surprised when I did a
> continuity test across the terminals...there's continuity regardless of
> the mag switch position.
>
> I guess this makes sense, that the switch is simply
> short-circuiting/grounding some internal mag circuit (I'm obviously not
> too familiar with the internals), but I want to sanity check this before
> I plod along unknowingly with an always-hot or always-cold mag.
>
> Thanks,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Causes for epidemic horizon failures ? |
Hi all,
Our kit manufacturer just asked me what could be the cause for repeating
electric horizon failures, regardless of the brand.
The kits are powered with Rotax engines, mainly wired according to the Rotax
diagrams.
He didn't mention the nature of the failures, electrical or mechanical.
Here are some possible causes that came to my mind :
- "Dirty" electric power
- Lack or an OV protection
- Vibrations (the kits are carbon fiber, and I noticed that many builders do
not ensure proper clearance between panel and structure, rendering the
silent blocks inoperative)
- Poor quality horizons : several are "imported" version from A&S. Others
are RC Allen. Only some surplus military Czech horizons seem to be trouble
free.
Does anyone around see other possible causes to investigate ?
He asked wether insufficient voltage could play a role.
Any opinions ?
Thanks
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slick mag P-lead continuity |
>
>I just want to confirm that it's normal for a Slick magneto to have internal
>continuity between the P-lead and GND terminals.
yes. the p-lead is actually in parallel with the same
winding that the points work against to time the spark.
This is a very low resistance winding which will be
closer to zero ohms when the points are closed. This
is why it takes a special "ohmmeter" to time a magneto.
The buzzer in the old timing lights created a relatively
high frequency AC excitation signal that was more discriminating
of point opening than the ordinary DC ohmmeter.
>I hooked up my mag switch (18AWG shielded wire, shield=ground terminal,
>center conductor=P-lead, 1-3 switch) and was surprised when I did a
>continuity test across the terminals...there's continuity regardless of the
>mag switch position.
>
>I guess this makes sense, that the switch is simply
>short-circuiting/grounding some internal mag circuit (I'm obviously not too
>familiar with the internals), but I want to sanity check this before I plod
>along unknowingly with an always-hot or always-cold mag.
Your points may be closed. If you can slowly rotate
the magneto and watch the ohmmeter closely, you may
perceive some change of resistance as the shaft turns . .
but it will always be a low resistance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten(at)quiknet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
Matt,
You may have missed a detail of my concept of recognition lights at the
outer leading edge of the strakes. The lights would be aimed outward about
45 degrees away from the direction of flight. Thus, they will not shine on
the canard, but they will be aimed at anyone on a converging path at the
same altitude! I also plan to "wig-wag" these lights to increase their
effectiveness at attacting attention.
These lights get pretty hot, and there wouldn't be much clearance in that
little canard. I'm afraid I would be melting the foam and softening the
epoxy if they are tucked in there. On the other hand, there's quite a bit
of space in the strake leading edge and I can add some thin aluminum shields
there if necessary.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Little recognition lights
> Slightly off topic...
>
> Have you considered that the proposed placement of recognition
> lights will likely preclude their use at night? The lights will
> probably shine brightly on the canard of your airplane and cause
> quite a bit of glare. Any chance you can mount the lights in the
> tips of your canard - good separation and no glare? Apparently,
> even the stock Long Ez light location behind the nose gear can be
> problematic. There is a window through which the pilot verifies
> the gear position. Light reflects off the gear leg and into the
> pilot's eyes... If you never fly at it night, its probably not
> a big deal.
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt Prather
> N34RD
>
> >
> >
> > I would like to put some halogen recognition lights in the strakes of my
> > Velocity. The available area to shine them through is structural, so I
> > want to minimize the size of the hole cut in the leading edge; that
> > will make reinforcing the area around the hole far easier. I see that
> > the small automotive aftermarket driving/fog lights are built arround
> > MR-16 lamps. I have found MR-11 lamps (35 watt, 1.38" in diameter) and
> > MR-8 lamps (even smaller!) for sale, but I haven't found lampholders for
> > these. Can anyone point me to a source for these? Keith Hallsten
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten(at)quiknet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
Gerry,No, a 6.5" wide hole in my strake was what I was trying to avoid. I'm aiming
for a round hole not larger than 1.5" diameter. Also, the HID lamps don't
lend themselves to "wig-wag" flashing (they come on too slowly) and the color
of HID lights is usually too close to daylight to offer good contrast with the
blue sky.What I'm really looking for is a lampholder for a MR-11 35 watt 12v
lamp. It wouldn't have to be weathertight, since it will be behind a lens formed
to the strake contour, but it wouldn't hurt if it were.Keith--> AeroElectric-List
message posted by: Gerry Holland
Keith Hi!
>
> I would like to put some halogen recognition lights in the strakes of my
> Velocity. The available area to shine them through is structural, so I want
> to minimize thhe size of the hole cut in the leading edge; that will make
> reinforcing the area around the hole far easier. I see that the small
> automotive aftermarket driving/fog lights are built arround MR-16 lamps. I
> have found MR-11 lamps (35 watt, 1.38" in diameter) and MR-8 lamps (even
> smaller!) for sale, but I haven't found lampholders for these. Can anyone
> point me to a source for these?
You might want to look at Hella Inc. for lamps and an alternative solution
in their Daylight Running Lights
They are 6Watt HID and are ideal for crowded lower airspace 'be seen'
visibility. Low power drain with low heat output but good viz.
Not sure if this is what you had in mind.
Dimensions are based on low profile 'rounded' oblong shape in semi circle
lightweight plastic housing. 2" H X 6.5" W X 3.5" Deep
Part No: 2 PT 008 362-801 - 12V
Website: http://www.hella.co.uk/n_press/press2001_07_23.html
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland(at)onetel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
Hi Keith,
I see what you are getting at. I didn't think of the aiming idea. You
will
still get some light shining on the canard, but obviously not as much as I
was thinking.
Before I drop the 'lights in the canard' idea, I'll just suggest that
there is not
much of structure out in the tip of the canard, as there isn't any
significant
load there. Even if you hogged out all of the foam near the tip, and
put an
aluminum heat shield, you could be plenty strong (with the standard
disclaimer). You might even put in a small, well fitted section of
aluminum
skin to act as a radiator of sorts. You could do this in the strake
location as
well.
I do like the idea of the lights being visible from the side.
Regards,
Matt-
KeithHallsten wrote:
>Matt,
>
>You may have missed a detail of my concept of recognition lights at the
>outer leading edge of the strakes. The lights would be aimed outward about
>45 degrees away from the direction of flight. Thus, they will not shine on
>the canard, but they will be aimed at anyone on a converging path at the
>same altitude! I also plan to "wig-wag" these lights to increase their
>effectiveness at attacting attention.
>
>These lights get pretty hot, and there wouldn't be much clearance in that
>little canard. I'm afraid I would be melting the foam and softening the
>epoxy if they are tucked in there. On the other hand, there's quite a bit
>of space in the strake leading edge and I can add some thin aluminum shields
>there if necessary.
>
>Keith
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
>To:
>Cc:
>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:52 AM
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Little recognition lights
>
>
>
>
>>Slightly off topic...
>>
>>Have you considered that the proposed placement of recognition
>>lights will likely preclude their use at night? The lights will
>>probably shine brightly on the canard of your airplane and cause
>>quite a bit of glare. Any chance you can mount the lights in the
>>tips of your canard - good separation and no glare? Apparently,
>>even the stock Long Ez light location behind the nose gear can be
>>problematic. There is a window through which the pilot verifies
>>the gear position. Light reflects off the gear leg and into the
>>pilot's eyes... If you never fly at it night, its probably not
>>a big deal.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Matt Prather
>>N34RD
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
Keith,
Try Allelectronics for both MR16 bulbs and the QRX-4 base for $1.25. The MR11
socket is harder to find, and there are not nearly as many choices for wattage
and beam width. I'm using MR16s in my J400, making the fixture out of thin aluminum
with this lamp.
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category320400&typestore is the URL for the catalog page.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Balun replacement |
>Comments/Questions: Bob,
>
>I'm repairing a 70's era Grumman American and find that the balun for the
>VOR cat whiskers is badly deteriorated. I've read your comments on using
>RG-400 in place of the older RG-58A/U that has no Quality Assurance on
>it. My question is: Does the RG-400 have any electrical properties that
>would alter the design or performance of the balun?
Perhaps. If I were going to fabricate balun assemblies from
a roll of modern coax, I would make measurements of samples
from the roll to determine the coax's velocity factor which
can vary from coax type to type and vary slightly from
roll to roll on same type. The velocity factor sets the
physical dimension of wavelength in the coax as opposed to
the calculated free-space wavelength.
>In case you've not seen one of these, it is a length of RG-58 that has had
>the shield split about 1/4 wave length from the end and the 2 shield
>braids are crimped into 2 ring terminals. The trailing end of the coax is
>folded back on itself and heat shrinked to the lead in portion.
>
>There is no loading device at the terminals as is used on some designs.
>
>I have pictures should you care to see them.
For some years, Cessna went to the trouble to fabricate
baluns for their cat-whisker antennas on the SE aircraft.
Then as I recall, Gordon Wood in the electrical group
acquired some test equipment with which he could study
antenna characteristics. He deduced that we gained very
little measurable benefit from using a balun as opposed
to simply hooking shield and center of a coax to the two
whiskers. This would have been sometime around 1967.
Given the superior performance of today's solid state receivers,
I suspect gains to be realized are even less significant.
If you went to the trouble to fabricate a new balun
using dimensions taken directly from the old one, it's
quite likely that it would perform satisfactorily. It
is equally likely that it will perform satisfactorily
if you simply attach each antenna element directly to
shield and center conductor of the feedline.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Causes for epidemic horizon failures ? |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Our kit manufacturer just asked me what could be the cause for repeating
>electric horizon failures, regardless of the brand.
>The kits are powered with Rotax engines, mainly wired according to the Rotax
>diagrams.
>He didn't mention the nature of the failures, electrical or mechanical.
>Here are some possible causes that came to my mind :
>
>- "Dirty" electric power
>- Lack or an OV protection
>- Vibrations (the kits are carbon fiber, and I noticed that many builders do
>not ensure proper clearance between panel and structure, rendering the
>silent blocks inoperative)
>- Poor quality horizons : several are "imported" version from A&S. Others
>are RC Allen. Only some surplus military Czech horizons seem to be trouble
>free.
>
>Does anyone around see other possible causes to investigate ?
>
>He asked wether insufficient voltage could play a role.
>Any opinions ?
Electrically gyros other than some turn coordinators
are always a polyphase a/c motor driven by a solid
state inverter. Inverter design has always been
rather robust (the same germanium transistors that
would give up due to external stresses in the audio
systems of the first hybrid Nav/Com 300's would be
okay in the power supply inverter for high voltage
generation for vacuum tubes).
As you have noted, the query is devoid of supporting
data to even begin development of a hypothesis. If
I were to take a WAG at it, I'd look at mechanical
issues first . . . vibration is the single most
deleterious stress on gyro bearings. That presupposes
that the person asking the question doesn't already
KNOW that they've experienced a rash of electrical
failures . . .
Have them contact me directly and I'll make inquiries
with local overhaul shops after we've deduced the
logical investigative pathways to root-cause of
the failures.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System configuration questions . . . |
>Comments/Questions: Bob
>
>I have your book and have decided to go all electric, thanks
>I will also be purchasing a bunch of your stuff for the electrics on my
>RV-8. I plan to install Dual Lightspeed Plazman III, and Grand Rapids EFIS
>and EIS.
>
>1) I plan a backup battery, like B&C sell< Question: is one backup battery
>for ignition and the EFIS/EIS enough or should I have two back-ups, one
>dedicated to ignition and the other to the EFIS/EIS. ie One bigger one or
>two smaller, of course in addition to the Primary battery.
>
>2) Vans 60 amp alternator is half the cost of the B&C, a lot of money, but
>it is also internally regulated. I have already decided I want to use your
>regulator and OV protection< coments??
Yeah, but you're already spending a ton of dollars on
other things. What is it about the B&C alternator that
find is not a good value? Do you know that the B&C
machines have a wearout and failure rate that is
essentially zero for the fleet of alternators supplied
over the last 10+ years? Number one cause for alternator
return is user induced damage.
You're considering an all-electric design and have
expressed concerns for having enough "backup batteries" . . .
Would it not be better to use primary power generation
components that are less likely to NEED backup?
Which version of all-electric? I presume that
if you're budgeting the kind of cash it takes to
fill out the suite of electronics cited, that you're
also interested in two engine driven power sources as
well.
You've cited a willingness to consider multiple batteries so
you could also consider a variation of Figure Z-14 wherein
your system enjoys totally independent electrical systems
for highest system reliability.
Let's start the discussion by taking one of the Z-drawings
and seeing where it makes sense to modify it to your
particular needs.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Well considered and technically elegant answers to
all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also,
check out the downloadable materials at
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | overvoltage condition spotting |
A friend of mine at work was driving his 2 year old Dodge pickup yesterday out
of his driveway and he said the voltmeter pegged to the right and the truck engine
immediately quit. He had it checked out by the shop (under warrantee) and
they blamed it on the battery "shorting out" since supposedly the alternator
checked out fine.
This is an actual confirmed siting of the elusive overvoltage condition. And no
my friend's name is not Elvis :)
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | DC power panel minutia |
I am placing components in the panel. How big of hole for the breaker (Im assuming
15/32 but just want to confirm) and for the low and over voltage warning
lights? What is the preferred color for each of these lights (say amber-amber
or use different colors like amber-white)? I was planning on using something
similar to a miniature red LED lamp at Radio Shack rated at 12 VDC, 100mW with
a projection angle of 45 degrees, $1.99 each part number 276-084 but need to
make sure they have amber and/or white. BTW one of the S-7 listers used these
little red lights successfully as panel post lights (instruments) by mounting
in little metal holders so I probably will too.
Is there a preferred placement for each of these two lights, the alt field breaker,
the master switch, and the epanel switch? Should the e-panel switch toggle
be flipped up or down on the panel when its in its normally open condition
and is it important that this switch have a safety cover over it?
Thanks.
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommended course of study . . . |
>Comments/Questions: Hello,
>
> I am a pilot and looking for a basic book about aircraft electricity or
> electricity in general. I am stepping into a Swearingen Merlin III and
> would like to feel more confident about reading the schematics and
> understanding the electrical system. Would your book help with this?
It would be a good start.
> Do you recommend any other books?
It sorta depends on how far you want to go. Electrics, electronics,
engines, aerodynamics, etc. etc are all PHYSICS. Further, they're
all based on stone-simple fundamentals that can be combined into
a variety of systems. One can have a reasonable working knowledge
of systems sufficient to use them . . . which is where the
vast majority of pilots find themselves. The 40-hour, FAA approved
syllabus for flight schools is specifically designed to get you
a license to operated an airplane but assures very little about
how well you understand the machine and the environment it
operates in.
The "AeroElectric Connection" is system oriented with some
explanation of how the various components fit into system
design. For more detail on the physics, consider texts like "Conceptual
Physics" by Hewitt and "Electronic Fundamentals Circuits,
Devices and Applications" by Floyd. These are available used
on the 'net at very reasonable prices, are well written and
fun to read. All of this reading is best augmented by
discussions with folks who are also expanding their horizons
of understanding.
I'd suggest you start with a copy of the AeroElectric Connection
and further, how about joining the AeroElectric List on Matronics.com?
There's a bunch of folks on the list trying to do exactly what
you're looking for . . . except most of them are building their
own airplanes. However, irrespective of whether your system is
owner built or factory built, the simple ideas that define performance
are the same. You'll be hard pressed to find a better venue for
the discussion of how it all works.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: overvoltage condition spotting |
>
>A friend of mine at work was driving his 2 year old Dodge pickup yesterday
>out of his driveway and he said the voltmeter pegged to the right and the
>truck engine immediately quit. He had it checked out by the shop (under
>warrantee) and they blamed it on the battery "shorting out" since
>supposedly the alternator checked out fine.
>
>This is an actual confirmed siting of the elusive overvoltage
>condition. And no my friend's name is not Elvis :)
Hmmmm . . . I'm mystified as to how a shorted battery can
produce an ov condition. This anecdote is interesting
but lacking in data as to what really went wrong and why
the system behaved as observed. Voltage regulation happens
in the alternator. If the observed panel instrument is
really a voltmeter and not an ammeter, then a gross
indication of "too much" was observed, it doesn't make
sense. However, a shorted battery can become a 10v battery
and indeed produce a "too much" indication on an ammeter
when 14v alternator comes on line and tries to charge it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
>
>
>I am placing components in the panel. How big of hole for the breaker
>(Im assuming 15/32 but just want to confirm) and for the low and over
>voltage warning lights?
I'm lost. Low -AND- over-voltage warning lights? Which warning
system are you installing? Hole sizes are dependent upon the
specific components selected.
> What is the preferred color for each of these lights (say amber-amber
> or use different colors like amber-white)? I was planning on using
> something similar to a miniature red LED lamp at Radio Shack rated at 12
> VDC, 100mW with a projection angle of 45 degrees, $1.99 each part number
> 276-084 but need to make sure they have amber and/or white.
We supply a LED lamp fixture with our LV sensor (versions -101/-102)
but if you want to use an incandescent lamp, you can order version -201
or -202
and pick your own fixture.
> BTW one of the S-7 listers used these little red lights successfully
> as panel post lights (instruments) by mounting in little metal holders so
> I probably will too.
>
>
>Is there a preferred placement for each of these two lights, the alt field
>breaker, the master switch, and the epanel switch? Should the e-panel
>switch toggle be flipped up or down on the panel when its in its normally
>open condition and is it important that this switch have a safety cover
>over it?
Suggested switch panel arrangements for the various
system configurations are illustrated at:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf
I don't know that there is any "preferred" placement
one should adopt. It's better to have a considered
reason for your choices. Take the illustration
cited above and then modify it as you see fit and
necessary.
Bob . . .
>Thanks.
>
>
>Joa
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RSwanson" <rswan19(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: overvoltage condition spotting |
I had this happen on an older Dodge truck. It has an amp meter and it was
pegging the hand and causing the radio to go crazy. I bought a new
regulator (it is external) and it did the same thing. I carried the truck
back to the parts store (they don't usually warranty electrical parts, but
they knew me) and tried two more before I got one that worked correctly.
That was several years ago and both the alternator and regulator still work
correctly.
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: overvoltage condition spotting
>
> >
> >A friend of mine at work was driving his 2 year old Dodge pickup
yesterday
> >out of his driveway and he said the voltmeter pegged to the right and
the
> >truck engine immediately quit. He had it checked out by the shop
(under
> >warrantee) and they blamed it on the battery "shorting out" since
> >supposedly the alternator checked out fine.
> >
> >This is an actual confirmed siting of the elusive overvoltage
> >condition. And no my friend's name is not Elvis :)
>
> Hmmmm . . . I'm mystified as to how a shorted battery can
> produce an ov condition. This anecdote is interesting
> but lacking in data as to what really went wrong and why
> the system behaved as observed. Voltage regulation happens
> in the alternator. If the observed panel instrument is
> really a voltmeter and not an ammeter, then a gross
> indication of "too much" was observed, it doesn't make
> sense. However, a shorted battery can become a 10v battery
> and indeed produce a "too much" indication on an ammeter
> when 14v alternator comes on line and tries to charge it.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
Bob,
This post prompted me to ask a question that has been bothering me for some
time. It's a duffer kind of a question, so bear with me.
How will I know if my alternator has packed up? I mean by this either OV'd
and tripped the breaker, or ANL-40 has blown. I suppose I _might_ notice a
breaker popping, but I might not, and I wouldn't know if the ANL-40 went.
It's a long-range aircraft, and I'd hate to be half-way across the water and
suddenly realise that I was running out of battery power because I hadn't
noticed it failing three hours ago.
It's a B&C 40A alternator and B&C LR3C.
Many thanks.
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DC power panel minutia
>
> >
> >
> >I am placing components in the panel. How big of hole for the breaker
> >(Im assuming 15/32 but just want to confirm) and for the low and over
> >voltage warning lights?
>
> I'm lost. Low -AND- over-voltage warning lights? Which warning
> system are you installing? Hole sizes are dependent upon the
> specific components selected.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: overvoltage condition spotting |
>
>I had this happen on an older Dodge truck. It has an amp meter and it was
>pegging the hand and causing the radio to go crazy. I bought a new
>regulator (it is external) and it did the same thing. I carried the truck
>back to the parts store (they don't usually warranty electrical parts, but
>they knew me) and tried two more before I got one that worked correctly.
>That was several years ago and both the alternator and regulator still work
>correctly.
Interesting. In this case, we know it was an ammeter and
that regulator change-out ultimately fixed what has to
be an OV problem. My skeptic's hat is still on when someone
has been told that a shorted battery caused and "OV problem" . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>This post prompted me to ask a question that has been bothering me for some
>time. It's a duffer kind of a question, so bear with me.
>
>How will I know if my alternator has packed up? I mean by this either OV'd
>and tripped the breaker, or ANL-40 has blown. I suppose I _might_ notice a
>breaker popping, but I might not, and I wouldn't know if the ANL-40 went.
>It's a long-range aircraft, and I'd hate to be half-way across the water and
>suddenly realise that I was running out of battery power because I hadn't
>noticed it failing three hours ago.
>
>It's a B&C 40A alternator and B&C LR3C.
The LR3C is fitted with a low voltage warning feature. Within
seconds of an alternator failure event, that light is going
to be flashing in your face . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
I have an idiot light on my panel.
>
>
>Bob,
>
>This post prompted me to ask a question that has been bothering me for some
>time. It's a duffer kind of a question, so bear with me.
>
>How will I know if my alternator has packed up? I mean by this either OV'd
>and tripped the breaker, or ANL-40 has blown. I suppose I _might_ notice a
>breaker popping, but I might not, and I wouldn't know if the ANL-40 went.
>It's a long-range aircraft, and I'd hate to be half-way across the water and
>suddenly realise that I was running out of battery power because I hadn't
>noticed it failing three hours ago.
>
>It's a B&C 40A alternator and B&C LR3C.
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Nev
>
>--
>Jodel D-150 in progress
>UK
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DC power panel minutia
>
>
>
>>
>
>> >
>> >
>> >I am placing components in the panel. How big of hole for the breaker
>> >(Im assuming 15/32 but just want to confirm) and for the low and over
>> >voltage warning lights?
>>
>> I'm lost. Low -AND- over-voltage warning lights? Which warning
>> system are you installing? Hole sizes are dependent upon the
>> specific components selected.
>>
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> |
Hi Bob,
Just a couple of questions on your test adapter (Note 8):
1) Does it matter which way the wires are connected to the plug, adaptor, and multimeter?
2) Radio Shack only had a 1 ohm, 1 watt resistor. Will it work and will the readings
be the same?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | overvoltage condition spotting |
Actually I had an ex girl friend who's regulator was bad and over
charging on her car. She was heading out of town on a couple hundred
mile drive so I offered to fix it for her. She did not want to wait the
hour for me to drive to the store pick up an alternator and install it,
heck I was going to pay for it.
So her sister was driving, not a very good driver and took a corner too
fast and the battery, which was not bolted down, fell over and shorted
the positive cable to the body. Since the engine was running this blew
the fusible link between the battery and the alternator as one would
expect. However the circuit design was such that the alternator was
still connected to the rest of the electrical system. Well to make
matters worst this happened at night so with out the battery in the
circuit to sink all that current from the alternator the voltage jumped
from around 16 volts to something ungodly, most likely 40-60v. Needless
to say every light and electrical device that was on, except for the
engine computer was fried.
All I could do was laugh very loudly when she told me the story.
I have known several "mechanics" who have said batteries were bad when
they started to magically read 16V, never realizing that the regulator
was actually bad. They would put in a new battery crank up the car and
then it would only read 15V, due to the large current draw from charging
the "new" battery. I have even seen it where a battery was warranty
several times before the customer would go to a shop with a mechanic who
had a lick of sense.
Trampas
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 16:23, Neville Kilford wrote:
> How will I know if my alternator has packed up?
As luck (not good unfortunately) would have it, my
alternator died on me in flight just this past Friday.
I was 3/4 of the way to my destination, and noticed
that my ammeter started indicating a discharge rather than a
charge. I turned off a few things to make sure the needle
was moving, and landed without incident. Turns out a diode
died in the alternator. Got it repaired and returned home
without incident (although a day late).
So, my experience is that you will
notice it by checking your ammeter every once in awhile... :-)
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux."
-Anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads |
Mark, all:
The X-pac 904 has some cool features.
It appears that although the Nova X-pac 904 beats the Whelen CometFlash supply
by 2:1 in price,
it does so at an extra 15% in current draw. This appears to be because the Whelen
flashes slower,
putting about 5% extra energy into each flash but at a 20% slower rate ( 55 vs.
70 / min ). So, if we
can believe the current draw specifications of each manufacturer, the Whelen puts
less load on your
alternator, the Nova less load on your wallet. A consideration for the power-efficient
OBAM ship...
Whelen is expensive, for sure...as the sole U.S. manufacturer of FAA-compliant
strobe heads and
power supplies, it can charge legal eagle builders what it wants. I agree, whatever
you decide
about the power supply, use the Whelen heads.
What I'd like some manufacturer to do is make a more efficient strobe power supply.
But if we're to
believe the input/output power specs that Nova quotes, strobe supplies are already
85% efficient. Not
much left to gain...
Shaun
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kc" <samdacat(at)elp.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
??Where is the Essential Bus connected in the Dual Battery/Single Alternator system,
Z28/Z30?? My initial assumption was to the Main Battery Bus.
My load charts indicate the following: Battery Bus - 2.1 amps
Aux Battery
Bus - 2.6 amps
Essential
Bus - 5.0 amps
The electrical system plan is for two 17AH batteries. The total system looks reasonable
with a capacity of 34AH and a load with the main bus disconnected of
9.6 amps. But when you look at the two battery design what you have with the
main bus disconnected is the Aux battery supplying a load of 2.6 amps and the
Main battery with a load of 7.1 amps which will reduce the alternator out range
dramatically.
I have discounted the option of simply tying the two batteries together or using
a single battery because that would eliminate the separate feeds for the dual
electronic ignition and electric fuel pumps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
>> I'm lost. Low -AND- over-voltage warning lights? Which warning
system are you installing? Hole sizes are dependent upon the
>>specific components selected.
Im installing your overvoltage protection (hasnt arrived yet and I forgot that
it had a lamp but I might want to match lamps anyway) and am going to hook up
the warning lamp off the Rotax 912 regulator too. In the future I may add a proper
low voltage warning but for now it will be interesting to see if and when
the Rotax lamp comes on (hopefully never!).
<< Suggested switch panel arrangements for the various
system configurations are illustrated at:
<<http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf
This is great! I missed seeing it in your book or website. Could I talk you out
of the CAD version (DXF or DWG)??
Joa
Rans S-7 w/912S
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | DC power panel minutia |
Neville,
I can't speak for the B&C alternators but my alternator has a "not
charging" light. In addition, I have a high/low voltage detector. So,
when my alternators goes off-line two lights illuminate immediately (ALT
and LOW VOLTAGE) in addition to the volt gauge dropping down to ~12
volts. It's an event that is pretty hard to miss in my ship. Oh yea, I
used one of the three color flashing LEDs for the ALT light - makes it
even harder to miss.
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 455 Hrs. TT - 3 Hrs Engine
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96
> -->
>
> >
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >How will I know if my alternator has packed up? I mean by
> this either
> >OV'd and tripped the breaker, or ANL-40 has blown. I
> suppose I _might_
> >notice a breaker popping, but I might not, and I wouldn't
> know if the
> >ANL-40 went. It's a long-range aircraft, and I'd hate to be half-way
>
> The LR3C is fitted with a low voltage warning feature. Within
> seconds of an alternator failure event, that light is going
> to be flashing in your face . . .
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Adapter |
>
>Hi Bob,
>Just a couple of questions on your test adapter (Note 8):
>
>1) Does it matter which way the wires are connected to the plug, adaptor,
>and multimeter?
not for a digital multimeter . . . if they're 'backwards'
you get (minus) readings as opposed to (plus) readings. It
not a problem 'cause it's the magnitude of the reading that's
interesting.
>2) Radio Shack only had a 1 ohm, 1 watt resistor. Will it work and will
>the readings be the same?
The resistor is there to prevent damage to the instrumentation
wire or disabling the alternator system should the wire become
shorted to ground. 1-ohm is will put a pretty good load on the
regulator . . . I'd rather see something bigger. The exact value is
unimportant to readings . . . input resistance of the multimeter
is many times higher. The protection resistor won't alter readings
appreciably.
I chose a 1-watt resistor for mechanical robustness. A larger
value of resistance would be in order. I can send you something
more suitable. Shoot me your mailing address.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
>
>
> >> I'm lost. Low -AND- over-voltage warning lights? Which warning
>
> system are you installing? Hole sizes are dependent upon the
>
> >>specific components selected.
>
>
>Im installing your overvoltage protection (hasnt arrived yet and I forgot
>that it had a lamp but I might want to match lamps anyway) and am going to
>hook up the warning lamp off the Rotax 912 regulator too. In the future I
>may add a proper low voltage warning but for now it will be interesting to
>see if and when the Rotax lamp comes on (hopefully never!).
The "warning" lamp on Rotax supplied regulator isn't
worth hooking up.
The OV protection I used to sell is the
OVM-14 crowbar ov module now sold by B&C from their website
at http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
The OV module doesn't have a light, it simply shuts down a runaway
alternator system.
The product I sell is the Low Voltage Warning and Aux Battery
Management module at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html
This product in all versions has one indicator light
that flashes a low voltage warning. So if you have ordered
anything from me, IT IS a proper low voltage warning light.
><< Suggested switch panel arrangements for the various
>
> system configurations are illustrated at:
>
>
> <<http://216.55.140.222/temp/Switches.pdf
>
>
>This is great! I missed seeing it in your book or website. Could I talk
>you out of the CAD version (DXF or DWG)??
sure, click here: http://216.55.140.222/temp/SWPANEL.DWG
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
>
>
>On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 16:23, Neville Kilford wrote:
>
> > How will I know if my alternator has packed up?
>
>
> As luck (not good unfortunately) would have it, my
>alternator died on me in flight just this past Friday.
>I was 3/4 of the way to my destination, and noticed
>that my ammeter started indicating a discharge rather than a
>charge. I turned off a few things to make sure the needle
>was moving, and landed without incident. Turns out a diode
>died in the alternator. Got it repaired and returned home
>without incident (although a day late).
>
> So, my experience is that you will
>notice it by checking your ammeter every once in awhile... :-)
Or you can install active notification of low voltage
as described at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
or offered complete at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
This simple system will tell you within a few seconds that
the alternator has failed while it may take some time
(if ever) to catch the ammeter reading.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Test Adapter |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bob -
I missed this thread. Would you post the info on this test adaptor or where
one could download it.
Many Thanks,
John
>> 2) Radio Shack only had a 1 ohm, 1 watt resistor. Will it work and will
>> the readings be the same?
>
> The resistor is there to prevent damage to the instrumentation
> wire or disabling the alternator system should the wire become
> shorted to ground. 1-ohm is will put a pretty good load on the
> regulator . . . I'd rather see something bigger. The exact value is
> unimportant to readings . . . input resistance of the multimeter
> is many times higher. The protection resistor won't alter readings
> appreciably.
>
> I chose a 1-watt resistor for mechanical robustness. A larger
> value of resistance would be in order. I can send you something
> more suitable. Shoot me your mailing address.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | overvoltage condition spotting |
>
>Actually I had an ex girl friend who's regulator was bad and over
>charging on her car. She was heading out of town on a couple hundred
>mile drive so I offered to fix it for her.
> I have even seen it where a battery was warranty
>several times before the customer would go to a shop with a mechanic who
>had a lick of sense.
FBO mechanics can be as bad. I had customers
at our airport relate similar tales of woe before
they brought their airplane out to our mechanics.
Our guys weren't real whippy electro-winnies either but
after I poked around a bit with the voltmeter,
we could usually get the REAL problem identified
and fixed.
Had one customer who had forked out nearly $1,000
in regulator and alternator work to fix an unstable
bus voltage. We had to gig him a couple $hundred$
more for time and materials to fix all the high
resistance joints in the bus-to-regulator feedpath
which ultimately fixed the problem. There never was
anything wrong with his high-dollar hardware.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | VHF transmit problem |
Garmin 430 pre-wired by John Stark with a PS Engineering PM3000 stereo interphone.
Would the use of mono headsets preclude the ability to transmit on the Garmin
radio?? I transmit only a "click" from either PTT switch but no voice.
Reception is normal and strong. I'm assuming the transmitter could care less
about mono or stereo????? Thanx in advance. Steve
Steve&Terri Chambers
2putt@cox-internet.com
479-855-3088
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> This simple system will tell you within a few seconds that
> the alternator has failed while it may take some time
> (if ever) to catch the ammeter reading.
> Bob . . .
Yes, but IMHO you should be checking both if you have
a lamp and a meter. Bulbs can die, and it is just good practice to
scan all your gauges on occasion... :-)
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten(at)quiknet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
Jim,
Yes, I found several sources for MR16 fixtures (including cheap driving lights
from Wal-Mart). However, my target is a 1.5" diameter or smaller. That's why
I'm trying to find a source for sockets for MR11 or MR8 lamps. Anyone have a
line on those?
Keith
Keith,
Try Allelectronics for both MR16 bulbs and the QRX-4 base for $1.25. The MR11
socket is harder to find, and there are not nearly as many choices for wattage
and beam width. I'm using MR16s in my J400, making the fixture out of thin aluminum
with this lamp.
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category320400&typestore is the URL for the catalog page.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Causes for epidemic horizon failures ? |
>
> As you have noted, the query is devoid of supporting
> data to even begin development of a hypothesis. If
> I were to take a WAG at it, I'd look at mechanical
> issues first . . . vibration is the single most
> deleterious stress on gyro bearings. That presupposes
> that the person asking the question doesn't already
> KNOW that they've experienced a rash of electrical
> failures . . .
>
> Have them contact me directly and I'll make inquiries
> with local overhaul shops after we've deduced the
> logical investigative pathways to root-cause of
> the failures.
Bob,
Will do.
Thanks so much once more for your help.
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Ground Strap Location? |
B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry for
the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is futile.
But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine ground
strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
bolt.
Thanks,
Joe
Long-EZ 821RP
Clarkston, WA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OV Module question for Bob |
> >Bob, I did a couple of tests this evening before going ahead and shipping
> >this module over to you. I disconnected my starter motor. Now if I hit
the
> >start button the starter relay pulls in and the OV breaker does not trip.
> >This I assume means that if there is an OV condition it is being caused
by
> >the starter motor itself? Btw, wiring is as per fig 16 for the 912 and
my
> >module is built from the current cct diagram on your web site using the
two
> >transistors and zener.
> >
> >Is there anyone else on the list with a Rotax 912, wiring per fig.16 and
an
> >OV module??
>
> It's probably not a true OV condition that's tripping your
> module. There is a characteristic of silicon controlled
> rectifiers that makes the device itself sensitive to
> rapid changes (called dv/dt or change-in-voltage-with-
> respect-to-time) that can cause the SCR to trigger
> irrespective of the design intent of the circuit.
.......................
........................
>
> For what is worth, the vast majority of my experience
> with nuisance tripping of the crowbar SCR has been
> with Rotax installations ........
...................
...................
> I'm considering a new design that substitutes
> a boss-hog MOS-FET for the SCR. Totally free of
> dv/dt trigger effects. Until a few years ago,
> FETs that could stand up to the 300A crowbar
> impulse were expensive. They're getting cheaper
> all the time.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
When the time comes to fire our Rotax engine I'm concerned by the
possiblility of similar OV nuisance trips of our B&C module.
Our panel is already painted and equipped, and for space reasons we won't be
able to install a 2-10 switch in place of the present 2-3.
Just in case, do you think we could modify or buy a new OV module with a
big MOS-FET in the near future ?
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
I have hooked up my electrical system and all items check out. My problem
is that when I shut everything down, the battery goes dead in a few days.
Something in the system is obviously drawing current. How do I go about
trouble shooting this? All I can think of is to pull all the fuses, charge
the battery and replace the fuses one by one waiting a day or two between
each addition to see if the battery is being drained. There has to be a
faster solution but I am not electrical enough to figure it out.
All electric
One Lightspeed EI
Backup SD-8
One battery
Always hot, Essential and main buses (fuses)
What's always hot?
Electronic ignition
Cigarette lighter
Battery trickle charger
Interior light
Keep alive Dynon EFIS
Ross Mickey
RV6A N9PT
At the painters
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument Panel Design |
Gary Casey's inquiry on panel design is hard to answer any better than the
three-part series by
Ricardo A. Price, in Kitplanes Dec95 and Jan96 and Feb96. I pore over this
stuff. I even have "Confusion in the Cockpit" from 1948 on the subject. But
everytime I want to make any comment on the subject I review Price's
articles and am re-impressed. I highly recommend getting the back issues
from Kitplanes (on line) if you have an interest in the subject. It's a real
keeper.
ps--Ricardo, can I get your email address?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and
wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Drain |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Ross,
You have a good idea with pulling all of the fuses. As you thought,
there is a faster way to find the leak. What I think you need is to
use some instrumentation. The easiest way I can think of is to use
your multimeter on its amps setting (and connection). Connect the
ammeter in line between either of the batter cables. With all of the
fuses pulled/breakers open, you should read in the micro (u) range,
or less. If you read in the milli (m) range, you might have a problem
with the wiring somewhere.
If everything looks good so far, add one fuse at a time until you
note a significant increase in current demanded of the battery. If
you can't identify any offending circuit, its possible that you have
a tired, old battery that has a leak. Check this by disconnecting the
battery from the airplane, and letting it sit for a few days, and then
check its level of charge.
Good luck!
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
>
>
> I have hooked up my electrical system and all items check out. My
> problem is that when I shut everything down, the battery goes dead in a
> few days. Something in the system is obviously drawing current. How do
> I go about trouble shooting this? All I can think of is to pull all the
> fuses, charge the battery and replace the fuses one by one waiting a day
> or two between each addition to see if the battery is being drained.
> There has to be a faster solution but I am not electrical enough to
> figure it out.
>
> All electric
> One Lightspeed EI
> Backup SD-8
> One battery
> Always hot, Essential and main buses (fuses)
>
> What's always hot?
> Electronic ignition
> Cigarette lighter
> Battery trickle charger
> Interior light
> Keep alive Dynon EFIS
>
> Ross Mickey
> RV6A N9PT
> At the painters
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Drain |
It is actually quite easy if you have a current meter. Remove the fuses
from the fuse block. Disconnect the positive terminal of the battery and
connect it to the positive terminal of the current meter, being careful to
keep it from comin into contact with the ship's ground. Connect the
negative terminal of the current meter to the positive post on the battery.
install the fuses one at a time to see if you get any current flow. You
may have more than one culprit so check all of the fuses for current
flow. How you deal with the offending circuit is for another E-mail. good
luck,
scot
>
>I have hooked up my electrical system and all items check out. My problem
>is that when I shut everything down, the battery goes dead in a few days.
>Something in the system is obviously drawing current. How do I go about
>trouble shooting this? All I can think of is to pull all the fuses, charge
>the battery and replace the fuses one by one waiting a day or two between
>each addition to see if the battery is being drained. There has to be a
>faster solution but I am not electrical enough to figure it out.
>
>All electric
>One Lightspeed EI
>Backup SD-8
>One battery
>Always hot, Essential and main buses (fuses)
>
>What's always hot?
>Electronic ignition
>Cigarette lighter
>Battery trickle charger
>Interior light
>Keep alive Dynon EFIS
>
>Ross Mickey
>RV6A N9PT
>At the painters
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Drain |
Take all the fuses out. Disconnect the (+) lead from the battery and put an
ammeter in series with the battery and the (+) lead. Start putting fuses
in. When you find the one that is pulling the amps it'll register on the
meter. The Dynon keepalive circuit will pull current all the time but it
should be a fairly low amount, and I don't understand the 'Battery Trickle
Charger' it may cause some grief. I assume that the LSE is on a switch and
is not really 'Always Hot' as is the interior light.
If you read current with all the fuses pulled then you may have a wiring
fault somewhere. What size battery do you have? If you know the Ah
(amp-hour) rating of the battery then you should be able to figure how much
current it would take to drain it in 48 hours. It would take roughly 350 mA
to drain a 17Ah battery in 48 hours. (somebody check my math). That's
pretty substaintial. The Dynon book says that it'll draw 1mA as long as the
internal battery is charged.
Oh don't hit the starter button with the ammeter in there unless you like
watching smoke rapidly escape from electrical test equipment. :-)
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Drain
>
> I have hooked up my electrical system and all items check out. My problem
> is that when I shut everything down, the battery goes dead in a few days.
> Something in the system is obviously drawing current. How do I go about
> trouble shooting this? All I can think of is to pull all the fuses,
charge
> the battery and replace the fuses one by one waiting a day or two between
> each addition to see if the battery is being drained. There has to be a
> faster solution but I am not electrical enough to figure it out.
>
> All electric
> One Lightspeed EI
> Backup SD-8
> One battery
> Always hot, Essential and main buses (fuses)
>
> What's always hot?
> Electronic ignition
> Cigarette lighter
> Battery trickle charger
> Interior light
> Keep alive Dynon EFIS
>
> Ross Mickey
> RV6A N9PT
> At the painters
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash |
heads
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Hi Shaun,
Yes the Xpak 904 pulls a bit more power, but if keeping alternator loads really
light is a high priority, you don't have to choose between dollars or load....just
go with a lower power NOVA unit (or other commercial power supply manufacturer).
Then you'll save amps *and* dollars! Of course, your strobes won't
be as bright either. For me the Xpak 904 load is fine, I have a 40 A alternator
and a deluxe day/night VFR panel with dual 100 w landing lights etc etc and
my theoretical worst case load analysis with *everything* ON is 35 A (I'd be
surprised if in real life I ever see anything over 30 A). I could go full IFR
with my existing alternator and still not have any problems. Unless you're running
an air conditioner or something really power hungry you shouldn't have
problems with electrical loads (assuming a 40 A alternator...if you were going
to get by with the 20 A vac pad unit that B&C sells, you'd have to really be
careful but that's not suitable for most night VFR equipped aircraft...).
I think the NOVA flash pattern/rate is slightly more visible than Whelen's...I
haven't done any objective tests for this but watching my friend's RV-8 with the
Xpak 904 in the pattern with other aircraft equipped with Whelens or Aeroflash
systems, I'd give the nod to the Xpak for most attention-getting. In addition
to outright brightness, the higher flash rate seems to catch your eye better
than a slower rate. The ideal seems to be the really high rate you see on
emergency vehicles (which is usually a combination of several strobe systems
going at once) but these rates are too high to be legal for aircraft. So the
Xpak 904 still fits the bill perfectly if you want optimized flash power and rate
for half the price and 5X better warranty that the Whelen Cometflash offers...
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D in painting hell....
From: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads
Mark, all:
The X-pac 904 has some cool features.
It appears that although the Nova X-pac 904 beats the Whelen CometFlash supply
by 2:1 in price,
it does so at an extra 15% in current draw. This appears to be because the Whelen
flashes slower,
putting about 5% extra energy into each flash but at a 20% slower rate ( 55 vs.
70 / min ). So, if we
can believe the current draw specifications of each manufacturer, the Whelen puts
less load on your
alternator, the Nova less load on your wallet. A consideration for the power-efficient
OBAM ship...
Whelen is expensive, for sure...as the sole U.S. manufacturer of FAA-compliant
strobe heads and
power supplies, it can charge legal eagle builders what it wants. I agree, whatever
you decide
about the power supply, use the Whelen heads.
What I'd like some manufacturer to do is make a more efficient strobe power supply.
But if we're to
believe the input/output power specs that Nova quotes, strobe supplies are already
85% efficient. Not
much left to gain...
Shaun
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmfpublic(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | RE: Little recognition lights |
Keith,
Here is the link to the Gilway catalog which has 8 G4 socket, using either
teflon or silicon insulation. The telephone number for sales in on each page
of this catalog. I'm sure you will find what you need.
http://www.gilway.com/pdf/allholders.pdf
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Causes for epidemic horizon failures ? |
> > As you have noted, the query is devoid of supporting
> > data to even begin development of a hypothesis. If
> > I were to take a WAG at it, I'd look at mechanical
> > issues first . . . vibration is the single most
> > deleterious stress on gyro bearings. That presupposes
> > that the person asking the question doesn't already
> > KNOW that they've experienced a rash of electrical
> > failures . . .
> >
> > Have them contact me directly and I'll make inquiries
> > with local overhaul shops after we've deduced the
> > logical investigative pathways to root-cause of
> > the failures.
Sorry I got in on this one late, but I have an interesting gyro story to
tell regarding vibration. I have a Sigmatek gyro in my plane, which is
made for Century Flight Systems (the gyro is vacuum, and gives input to
the autopilot system). Anyway, I had no problems for the first 300
hours or so, but then started noticing the gyro giving a nose down
indication during climbs. After leveling off, it would recover in a
minute or two. This sporadically happened over the last 60 hours or so.
It wasn't until last week when - duh - I correlated the pitch down with
engine rpm's. I typically climb at 2400 rpm, but pull it back to 2300
for cruise. There is something in the gyro which resonates when my
engine is at or near 2400 which causes it to show a nose down
indication. I moved the gyro forward in the airplane 1/2", mounting it
with little rubber vibration isolators, and presto, problem is gone. It
looks a little strange, but I'll come up with something to improve the
cosmetics. BTW, I had the dynamic balance of the prop checked, and it
was still in balance. I have no explanation for why the problem didn't
exist for the first 300 hours, except perhaps the intricate linkages
connecting the gyro to the "football" indicator might be getting a
little sloppy.
I happen to disagree with the above statement that vibration is the main
stress in gyros - hitting their stops while spun up has got to be the
highest stress that the gyro bearings see. The vibration levels, even
if they seem like a lot to ones finger, are still only very fractional g
loadings. The key is whether or not they drive something inside the
gyro at resonance, in which case, the forces could indeed be high.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 372 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson updated with Van's homecoming photos!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Burton" <dburton(at)nwlink.com> |
| Subject: | Little recognition lights |
> Keith,
> Here is the link to the Gilway catalog which has 8 G4 socket, using either
> teflon or silicon insulation. The telephone number for sales in on each
page
> of this catalog. I'm sure you will find what you need.
> http://www.gilway.com/pdf/allholders.pdf
>
> Jim Foerster
I like Gilway a lot and have purchased hundreds of sockets from them in the
past. The last time I called them though they would not take an order from
me... They said that unless I ordered hundreds of one type at a time
(instead of hundreds of assorted which is how I order) they were not
interested in helping me.
I have been dealing with Bulbworks for sockets and Bulbman for lightbulbs.
Good luck!
http://www.bulbworks.com/sockets.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
>
>
>On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> > This simple system will tell you within a few seconds that
> > the alternator has failed while it may take some time
> > (if ever) to catch the ammeter reading.
> > Bob . . .
>
> Yes, but IMHO you should be checking both if you have
>a lamp and a meter. Bulbs can die, and it is just good practice to
>scan all your gauges on occasion... :-)
That's why the lamp fixtures we ship are fitted with LEDs . .
and when driven from the main bus, the circuit gets pre-flight
tested when the master comes on and before the engine is started.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Adapter |
>
>
>Bob -
>
>I missed this thread. Would you post the info on this test adaptor or where
>one could download it.
>
>Many Thanks,
>
>John
It's illustrated as a "patch" schematic in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
figure Z-23.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
>
>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
>
>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry for
>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
>
>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is futile.
> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
>
>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine ground
>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
>bolt.
DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
the rear of their Lycoming engines.
A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
See view -B- of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Adapter |
I just noticed the resistor I bought was 1k ohm which I'm now thinking
probably means 1000 ohms. If that is true then is 1000 ohm, 1 watt resistor
okay instead of the one on the note 8 which has a 1k ohm, 1/2 watt resistor?
thanks, Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Test Adapter
> >Just a couple of questions on your test adapter (Note 8):
> >2) Radio Shack only had a 1 ohm, 1 watt resistor. Will it work and will
> >the readings be the same?
>
> The resistor is there to prevent damage to the instrumentation
> wire or disabling the alternator system should the wire become
> shorted to ground. 1-ohm is will put a pretty good load on the
> regulator . . . I'd rather see something bigger. The exact value is
> unimportant to readings . . . input resistance of the multimeter
> is many times higher. The protection resistor won't alter readings
> appreciably.
>
> I chose a 1-watt resistor for mechanical robustness. A larger
> value of resistance would be in order. I can send you something
> more suitable. Shoot me your mailing address.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
| From: | Christopher J Fortin <cjfortin(at)juno.com> |
Hi Keith,
We use these at work for the MR16 lamps. Saves you from having to build
a fixture.
http://www.vanltg.com/buhl/qlv-1.htm
Chris
>
>Keith,
>Try Allelectronics for both MR16 bulbs and the QRX-4 base for $1.25.
The MR11
>socket is harder to find, and there are not nearly as many choices for
wattage
>and beam width. I'm using MR16s in my J400, making the fixture out of
thin aluminum
>with this lamp.
>http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category320400&typest
ore is the URL for the catalog page.
>Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator loads/batteries |
Bob:
Its been awhile, but I am still here trying to get this project done. In
regard to bus loads, it has never been mentioned about just where the
alternators come on. I am doing the Z-14 in a Lancair ES, dual alt/bat. Talking
to B&C
this past S&F, I found out that using my B&C 20 amp alternator won't come on
line until about 1600 RPM. I thought this was kind of high, until I found out
that the vacuum pad drive is about half of the engine RPM, i.e., in the case
of my IO-520 "D," the engine idles at 600 RPM, so the drive pad is at 300 RPM.
I believe this has to do with something about the mags. Knowing this, when
does the main alternator come on line providing the main source of power to the
bus? I see now that the biggest load demand would be the taxi out. T/O, App,
and cruise will be in RPM ranges where the 60/20 amp alternators will be doing
most of the work vise the two batteries. I suppose my knowledge of car
alternators where at a low RPM, the alternator is giving you some support vise
running
completely on the battery. Concerning a true dual split bus system as in the
Z-14, would it not be better to have two 60amp alternators? One alternator in
the rear driven by a belt as I have now and a belt driven front alternator off
the prop? That way you could cross-tie one bus to power the other fully
should one fail, the little stby 20amp vacuum alternator could then just power
a
small emergency bus. Is this an over kill?
Regards,
Ed Silvanic
N823MS(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
Thanks,
Joe
Long-EZ 821RP
Clarkston, WA
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Strap Location?
>
>
>>
>>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
>>
>>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry for
>>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
>>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
>>
>>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
>>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is futile.
>> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
>>
>>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine ground
>>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
>>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
>>bolt.
>
> DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
> 5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
> may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
> in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
>
> The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
> to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
> can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
> the rear of their Lycoming engines.
>
> A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
> ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
> See view -B- of
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "willfly" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com> |
Does anyone have any experience with the hand held SP-200 NAV/COM from Sporty's?
Looks like it may do the same job as the ICOM but with a LOC function.
Thanks
Steve Glasgow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
>
>Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
>ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
>Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
>Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
>with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
Lycoming won't have an "approved" ground point. They're
engine guys . . . the fact that their engines have starters
and alternators attache to them is a necessary feature
but incidental to their expertise.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Adapter |
>
>I just noticed the resistor I bought was 1k ohm which I'm now thinking
>probably means 1000 ohms. If that is true then is 1000 ohm, 1 watt resistor
>okay instead of the one on the note 8 which has a 1k ohm, 1/2 watt resistor?
sure . . . that's great.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator loads/batteries |
>
>Bob:
>
> Its been awhile, but I am still here trying to get this project done. In
>regard to bus loads, it has never been mentioned about just where the
>alternators come on. I am doing the Z-14 in a Lancair ES, dual alt/bat.
>Talking to B&C
>this past S&F, I found out that using my B&C 20 amp alternator won't come on
>line until about 1600 RPM. I thought this was kind of high, until I found out
>that the vacuum pad drive is about half of the engine RPM, i.e., in the case
>of my IO-520 "D," the engine idles at 600 RPM, so the drive pad is at 300
>RPM.
Not so. Depending on your engine brand and model, vacuum pump pad
runs at 1.3 to 1.5 engine speed. This gives you something on the order
of 4,000 rpm at the pad at cruise. Most automotive products won't deliver
full output at less than 6,000 rpm. The SD-8 is really a 12A machine
when belt driven and a 10A machine when gear driven off the Continental
-12 style case. The SD-20 is a 40A machine when belt driven on the
front of the engine. I think the SD-8's magnetics have matured with
age and some people are seeing 10A at cruise.
Coming "on line" simply means that the alternator has begun to shoulder
SOME system loads . . . this is the MINIMUM SPEED FOR REGULATION and
is a good number to know but to pick up any significant loads, you'll
need more RPM yet.
Figure z-14 allows for closing the cross-feed contactor after pre-flight
and before take-off to allow the belt-driven machine to keep all the busses
happy. If you've left the stock, small pulley on a B&C alternator,
it will give you plenty of snort to run the whole airplane at
taxi speeds. With low voltage warning on the panel, you even have a
reminder to close the cross-feed switch during taxi if loads
on the aux bus are too great for the smaller alternator to pick up
the loads.
>I believe this has to do with something about the mags. Knowing this, when
>does the main alternator come on line providing the main source of power
>to the
>bus? I see now that the biggest load demand would be the taxi out. T/O, App,
>and cruise will be in RPM ranges where the 60/20 amp alternators will be
>doing
>most of the work vise the two batteries. I suppose my knowledge of car
>alternators where at a low RPM, the alternator is giving you some support
>vise running
>completely on the battery. Concerning a true dual split bus system as in the
>Z-14, would it not be better to have two 60amp alternators?
Depends on what you call "better" . . . If your concerns are for
the temporary conditions of ground taxi, what is the value of adding
lots of dead weight to cover 1 few percent of total operating time
when the manipulation of some pilot accessible controls will
mitigate the problem.
> One alternator in
>the rear driven by a belt as I have now and a belt driven front alternator
>off
>the prop? That way you could cross-tie one bus to power the other fully
>should one fail, the little stby 20amp vacuum alternator could then just
>power a
>small emergency bus. Is this an over kill?
Won't know until you do an accurate load analysis that
determines what equipment really has to run to make the
outcome of your flight a comfortable effort. The
foundation for your comfort comes from good data beginning
with how the alternators really perform under various phases
of flight operation, knowing what each of your planned
accessories needs under various phases of flight, and
then crafting your pilot's operating handbook to work
comfortably within what ever power budgets you have for
each anticipated condition.
Yes, you CAN put dual 60A alternators and even dual
24 or 32 a.h. batteries on board. The FAA would love it
if every certified single had such a system . . . wow,
100% redundancy for every contingency . . . without
regard to how knowledgeable builder/pilots and elegant
designs can do just as well with much less. Perhaps better -
less brute force redundancy translates to greater payload.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
>
>??Where is the Essential Bus connected in the Dual Battery/Single
>Alternator system, Z28/Z30?? My initial assumption was to the Main
>Battery Bus.
>
>My load charts indicate the following: Battery Bus - 2.1 amps
> Aux
> Battery Bus - 2.6 amps
>
>Essential Bus - 5.0 amps
>
>The electrical system plan is for two 17AH batteries. The total system
>looks reasonable with a capacity of 34AH and a load with the main bus
>disconnected of 9.6 amps. But when you look at the two battery design
>what you have with the main bus disconnected is the Aux battery supplying
>a load of 2.6 amps and the Main battery with a load of 7.1 amps which will
>reduce the alternator out range dramatically.
>
>I have discounted the option of simply tying the two batteries together or
>using a single battery because that would eliminate the separate feeds for
>the dual electronic ignition and electric fuel pumps.
Depends on your accessory details. If you have any devices in the
airplane that are not designed to live in the real world (EFIS,
FADEC or anything else that goes to la-la land during cranking)
then you might want to run these devices from a aux battery bus
and/or e-bus that runs from the aux battery and use only main
battery for cranking.
What goodies do you have running ruing alternator-out operations?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OV Module question for Bob |
>
>Bob,
>
>When the time comes to fire our Rotax engine I'm concerned by the
>possiblility of similar OV nuisance trips of our B&C module.
>Our panel is already painted and equipped, and for space reasons we won't be
>able to install a 2-10 switch in place of the present 2-3.
>Just in case, do you think we could modify or buy a new OV module with a
>big MOS-FET in the near future ?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gilles
What's preventing you from putting in a 2-10? They're
exactly the same size and wire up the same way. I don't
see that it's a grinding "requirement " to label the
mid position and the existing labels are true and
correct for the extreme positions.
If your field breaker is pullable, you can also
write procedures to pull the breaker at shutdown
and push it back in after start-up and leave your
existing switch in place. I wouldn't guarantee
that a crowbar ov module with any different SCR
would solve the problem. Over the years, I've had
about 1 to 2% of builders experience nuisance trips
for various conditions on airplanes that were essentially
Without mounting a science project with government
sized budget support to ferret out root-causes,
I've had to dampen my desire understand all the
variables. If suggested workarounds are untenable
for you, perhaps a more conventional OV relay product
is better suited to your needs.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Chalmers" <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com> |
I have a Sporty's handheld I ordered about a year ago. I also have a King KX-99
and ICOM-A5. The Sporty works but the quality is not the same as the King or
ICOM. The case is more flimsy and there seems to be more noise when receiving
(sounds like digital noise from the internals). It is much cheaper though.
Just my 2 cents.
Dave Chalmers
-----Original Message-----
From: willfly [mailto:willfly(at)carolina.rr.com]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Handheld Radios
Does anyone have any experience with the hand held SP-200 NAV/COM from Sporty's?
Looks like it may do the same job as the ICOM but with a LOC function.
Thanks
Steve Glasgow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Handheld Radios |
Steve,
Before you buy anything be sure to check the Vertex (Yaesu) and the Icom for
what accessories are included. I like to support Sporty's as much as I can
but when you see how much extra you have to pay for things like a nicad pack
and charger that are already included with the Vertex and Icom, the Sporty's
radio becomes a poor value. Hope this helps.
Bill
Glasair
> Does anyone have any experience with the hand held SP-200 NAV/COM from
Sporty's? Looks like it may do the same job as the ICOM but with a LOC
function.
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Glasgow
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Drain |
Thank you all so much. I knew there was a way to do this. As you can
tell, I am not a master of the multi-meter yet.
Some responses to the posts:
Yes, the Electronic ignition and cabin lights are on switches and are
therefore not "always hot." They are on my always hot bus thus not
requiring the master switch to be thrown.
The trickle charger cable is actually not on the hot bus but is directly
attached to the battery with an in-line fuse. It has a fancy connector to
attach the cable to the trickle charger. This attachment came with my
trickle charger and is handy for plugging it in.
The battery is a 17 amp hawker about 9 months old.
Thanks again.....off to track down the culprit!!!
Ross Mickey
N9PT
Still at the painters
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
Hi Steve,
I went through the same thing back in Jul/Aug. Below is my response.
Regards,
/\/elson
> Hi All,
>
> Just wanted to pass on a "Thanks" for your responses. Y'all gave me some
> things to think about and choices to look into and I've settled on an Icom
> A5.
>
> So, why the A5?
>
> - Small and compact - it's small and light to begin with but as you add
> accessories, it doesn't get big-n-bulky.
>
> - Everything is backlighted - unlike the Vertex/Yeasu Aviator which
> apparently doesn't backlight the keypad.
>
> - Pireps of "forego the NAV" greatly outnumbered "invest in the NAV" in the
> newsgroups. Also, apparently, the NAV reception is fair at best while using
> the default antenna w/ any of the handheld NAV/COM's.
>
> - On the "NAV" - better to go with a portable GPS - more info, better
> coverage
>
> - Mixed reviews of the Sporty's
>
> - Icom was offering a $30 mail-in rebate
>
> - Got the A5 for $276.55 including tax, and S+H and a free alkaline battery
> pack from "Mikes Aircraft" - so with the rebate $246.55.
>
> - Comes with Ni-MH which doesn't suffer from the "memory effect".
>
> - Antenna is attached with a BNC connector - no need for adaptor (Sporty's)
>
> - Good pireps of the A5
>
> - Icom is a name I've known since my "intro to ham" days as a kid - the maker
> of the Sporty's apparently isn't known.
>
> - NOAA freq's built in - I can see this being used for other purposes.
>
> Thanks again,
> /\/elson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bass" <George_Bass_0(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Handheld Radios |
About 2 years ago, I purchased my handheld radio
(a JHP-520 w/ LOC) from a dealer on eBay. The
total cost, including shipping & handling, was less
than any other that I could find at the time ($250).
I've used it regularly for both GA and UL flights
and have had no difficulties with it. The quality of
both the equipment & audio has been acceptable too.
Comments that I've received from fellow pilots, on
the receiving end, have also been good. The unit I
got came with a cigarette lighter socket power cord
AND a wall charger for the home.
Although several of my flights have been over a
couple of hours, the longest continual use was a one
of our club open house/fly-in's. I had been awarded
the honor of "Acting FBO" and given responsibility
for the traffic, both ground and air, at the airfield.
This activity lasted for nearly eight (8) hours and
I never gave the radio a second thought. Worked
perfectly. Guess that's all I could ask for.
Hope this helps,
George
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Simmons" <ken(at)truckstop.com> |
Bob,
I saw a post from you back in May stating this flasher was a timer driving a relay.
The wig wag pdf has a note that says both outputs of the SSF-1 have to be
loaded for it to work properly. These two statements seem to conflict. Can you
please clarify?
I really like the two switch circuit you recently added to the pdf so I wanted
to get this clarified. If the SSF-1 has to be loaded on both outputs, flash capability
is lost if you lose a bulb. This makes since on the thermal flashers.
Thanks.
Ken
The Internet Truckstop
The first and largest
freight matching
service on the
Intenet
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "kc" <samdacat(at)elp.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
The current plan is:
Aux Battery Bus
- Lightspeed Plasma III #2
- Facet Fuel Pump #2
- Dynon EFIS-D10
- Aux Battery on Light
Battery Bus
- Lightspeed Plasma III #1
- Facet Fuel Pump #1
- Hour meter
- Overhead lights
Essential Bus
- Ameri-King AK350 Encoder
- Fuel level senders, left & right
- King 76A Transponder
- King 150KFD, GPS only
- King KX125 Nav/Comm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System
>
> >
> >??Where is the Essential Bus connected in the Dual Battery/Single
> >Alternator system, Z28/Z30?? My initial assumption was to the Main
> >Battery Bus.
> >
> >My load charts indicate the following: Battery Bus - 2.1 amps
> > Aux
> > Battery Bus - 2.6 amps
> >
> >Essential Bus - 5.0 amps
> >
> >The electrical system plan is for two 17AH batteries. The total system
> >looks reasonable with a capacity of 34AH and a load with the main bus
> >disconnected of 9.6 amps. But when you look at the two battery design
> >what you have with the main bus disconnected is the Aux battery supplying
> >a load of 2.6 amps and the Main battery with a load of 7.1 amps which
will
> >reduce the alternator out range dramatically.
> >
> >I have discounted the option of simply tying the two batteries together
or
> >using a single battery because that would eliminate the separate feeds
for
> >the dual electronic ignition and electric fuel pumps.
>
> Depends on your accessory details. If you have any devices in the
> airplane that are not designed to live in the real world (EFIS,
> FADEC or anything else that goes to la-la land during cranking)
> then you might want to run these devices from a aux battery bus
> and/or e-bus that runs from the aux battery and use only main
> battery for cranking.
>
> What goodies do you have running ruing alternator-out operations?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
Joe;
Some (probably not all) Lycomings have a "spare" bolt hole in a sort of
triangular web cast into the crankcase in the vicinity of the base of the
oil stick housing. This seems to be sized for an AN3 bolt and works nicely
for a ground strap installation depending on how and where you route the
ground strap. I used this point on my Aerosport O-320 but I have not seen it
in all O-320s and an O-235 may simply be different.
As Bob has said, the should be no reason not to use most any location on the
engine. A lug under one of the sump bolts is another common location.
Jim Oke
Wpg, MB
RV-6A with O-320
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Dubner" <jdubner(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Strap Location?
>
> Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
> ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
> Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
> Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
> with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
> Long-EZ 821RP
> Clarkston, WA
>
>
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Strap Location?
> >
> >
> >>
> >>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
> >>
> >>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry for
> >>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
> >>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
> >>
> >>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
> >>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is futile.
> >> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
> >>
> >>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine ground
> >>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
> >>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
> >>bolt.
> >
> > DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
> > 5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
> > may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
> > in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
> >
> > The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
> > to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
> > can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
> > the rear of their Lycoming engines.
> >
> > A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
> > ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
> > See view -B- of
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Thanks for the explanation |
Not so. Depending on your engine brand and model, vacuum pump pad
runs at 1.3 to 1.5 engine speed. This gives you something on the order
of 4,000 rpm at the pad at cruise. Most automotive products won't deliver
full output at less than 6,000 rpm. The SD-8 is really a 12A machine
when belt driven and a 10A machine when gear driven off the Continental
-12 style case. The SD-20 is a 40A machine when belt driven on the
front of the engine. I think the SD-8's magnetics have matured with
age and some people are seeing 10A at cruise.
Bob:
Your exactly right. I should have known. It only took a day and a half to
find a TCM rep. He had mentioned the same numbers you did, 1.3, 1.5. I quess
he went the wrong way. I should have no problem then running the number two
bus with the B&C 20 amp alternator off the vacuum pad. At cruise I can run a few
extras and protect myself with some of the essentials if I loose the main
alternator.
Figure z-14 allows for closing the cross-feed contactor after pre-flight
and before take-off to allow the belt-driven machine to keep all the
busses
happy. If you've left the stock, small pulley on a B&C alternator,
it will give you plenty of snort to run the whole airplane at
taxi speeds. With low voltage warning on the panel, you even have a
reminder to close the cross-feed switch during taxi if loads
on the aux bus are too great for the smaller alternator to pick up
the loads.
I will be running a rear belt driven Ford Motorcraft alternator, use the
LR-3 controller. It is running off a pulley thats in concert with the starter.
I suppose the ratio has the 60 amp alternator turning at a good rate.
After this discussion, I believe I will just stick with the Z-14 using
the 60/20amp alternators. I just never was fully aware of the loading between
the two alternators and the two batteries. For now I will just keep it simple
and run the Z-14 as designed. I can always turnoff equipment that I don't need
during a main alt,60amp, failure, throw the crosstie on and land safely with
the 20amp alt supplying what I need. I believe this is the thought process of
the Z-14. I do agree in replacing that one battery every year. Thanks for your
time.
Regards,
Ed Silvanic
N823MS(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
My two cents' worth:
I had a Sporty's nav/com (vintage 1997), and although I liked its
features, the general quality was crummy. It finally died last year,
refusing to transmit even though the tx indicator lights. The battery
box was junk, and I had to rebuild it several times. It was probably
turned on a total of 5 hours.
I now have the little Icom com and so far, like it, particularly the
smallness and rechargeability. That being said, a big complaint is that
it has no battery level meter or charge indicator. I really can't
believe someone would make something today without those two features.
It doesn't even get warm when it is charging, so one has to go on faith
that it is. If another brand had similar size/features, but did have
the battery meter and charge functions, I'd go with it even if it were a
bit more.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 372 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
Bob, sorry I missed the start of this discussion - "this simple system" -
are you & D J talking about a "low voltage warning module" that B&C sells?
What would I look for on the B&C website (I just looked and didn't see
anything like you all are talking about)? Or, are you only talking about a
lamp (LED) fixture that is fed from a pin of the the LR3 external voltage
regulator?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DC power panel minutia
>
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > > This simple system will tell you within a few seconds that
> > > the alternator has failed while it may take some time
> > > (if ever) to catch the ammeter reading.
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> > Yes, but IMHO you should be checking both if you have
> >a lamp and a meter. Bulbs can die, and it is just good practice to
> >scan all your gauges on occasion... :-)
> That's why the lamp fixtures we ship are fitted with LEDs . .
> and when driven from the main bus, the circuit gets pre-flight
> tested when the master comes on and before the engine is started.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Handheld Radios |
>
>
>About 2 years ago, I purchased my handheld radio
>(a JHP-520 w/ LOC) from a dealer on eBay. The
>total cost, including shipping & handling, was less
>than any other that I could find at the time ($250).
I've been selling this radio for a couple of years
and I own one. Used it a few times with the headset/mic
adapter with good results. I'm not sure it has
LOC (localizer) demodulation capabilities.
(book doesn't mention it but it's a typical translation
effort that has numerous minor problems)
It demodulate and display VOR. VOR ops with rubber duck are
flaky at more than 10 miles out but if you're doing
a scraping-the-bottom-of- the-barrel VOR approach, it
would probably be okay . . . those VORs tend to be
relatively close to the airport.
I have a "portable" external antenna I can tape
to the strut of a Cessna that greatly enhances
VOR and Comm performance. If I were ferrying
an otherwise radio-less airplane, I'd use the
tape-on external antenna.
I normally fly dual GPS using hand helds with
Comm transceivers being the only panel mounted
radios I bother with.
I'll tune it in to the LOC frequency next time
I'm at an airport that is so equipped and see if
it knows what to do with it. FWIW, I recommend the
alkaline battery pack for any handheld radio . . .
re-chargeable batteries are more of a variable
than I like to deal with for a radio that is supposed
to ALWAYS be available. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/AA_Bat_Test.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>
>I saw a post from you back in May stating this flasher was a timer driving
>a relay. The wig wag pdf has a note that says both outputs of the SSF-1
>have to be loaded for it to work properly. These two statements seem to
>conflict. Can you please clarify?
There has to be a lamp load on both outputs for it to flash.
If one output is disconnected or the lamp burns out, flashing
stops.
>I really like the two switch circuit you recently added to the pdf so I
>wanted to get this clarified. If the SSF-1 has to be loaded on both
>outputs, flash capability is lost if you lose a bulb. This makes since on
>the thermal flashers.
That's the way this one works too . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
>
>The current plan is:
>
>Aux Battery Bus
> - Lightspeed Plasma III #2
> - Facet Fuel Pump #2
> - Dynon EFIS-D10
> - Aux Battery on Light
>
>Battery Bus
> - Lightspeed Plasma III #1
> - Facet Fuel Pump #1
> - Hour meter
> - Overhead lights
Fuel pump and overhead lights are generally
not included in the endurance mode loads. Also,
if you have only one alternator and you're down
to battery only, turn off one of the ignition
systems for the en route phase. Most airplanes
get their first ignition to run along side a magneto.
Timing of the electronic ignition is so far advanced
compared to mag that the mag contributes nothing. . .
so you're cruising on one ignition.
Turn on the second ignition for approach only. Do
>Essential Bus
> - Ameri-King AK350 Encoder
> - Fuel level senders, left & right
> - King 76A Transponder
> - King 150KFD, GPS only
> - King KX125 Nav/Comm
I'm having trouble seeing how you get 5A running load
from this list of goodies on the e-bus . . . let's see
your load analysis numbers for each of those items.
Download and print
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf
and fill out pages for each of the busses. Can you
scan them and email? Pehaps you can do the equivalent
in Excel and just post the file. If not, just snail mail
me paper copies.
I think we're going to find that your problem is not
nearly as large as you perceive.
Do you plan to have a vacuum pump?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thanks for the explanation |
>
> Not so. Depending on your engine brand and model, vacuum pump pad
> runs at 1.3 to 1.5 engine speed. This gives you something on the order
> of 4,000 rpm at the pad at cruise. Most automotive products won't deliver
> full output at less than 6,000 rpm. The SD-8 is really a 12A machine
> when belt driven and a 10A machine when gear driven off the Continental
> -12 style case. The SD-20 is a 40A machine when belt driven on the
> front of the engine. I think the SD-8's magnetics have matured with
> age and some people are seeing 10A at cruise.
>
>Bob:
>
> Your exactly right. I should have known. It only took a day and a
> half to
>find a TCM rep. He had mentioned the same numbers you did, 1.3, 1.5. I quess
>he went the wrong way. I should have no problem then running the number two
>bus with the B&C 20 amp alternator off the vacuum pad. At cruise I can run
>a few
>extras and protect myself with some of the essentials if I loose the main
>alternator.
What are "essentials?" . . . have you done a load analysis? See:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf
>
> I will be running a rear belt driven Ford Motorcraft alternator, use the
>LR-3 controller. It is running off a pulley thats in concert with the
>starter.
>I suppose the ratio has the 60 amp alternator turning at a good rate.
I don't know about that drive pad . . . I didn't catch on that
we were talking TCM.
> After this discussion, I believe I will just stick with the Z-14 using
>the 60/20amp alternators. I just never was fully aware of the loading between
>the two alternators and the two batteries. For now I will just keep it simple
>and run the Z-14 as designed. I can always turnoff equipment that I don't
>need
>during a main alt,60amp, failure, throw the crosstie on and land safely with
>the 20amp alt supplying what I need. I believe this is the thought process of
>the Z-14. I do agree in replacing that one battery every year. Thanks for
>your
>time.
You're throwing the broad brush of "I can always turn off equipment I
don't need" ploy . . . doesn't sound like you're SURE of exactly what
you plan to run and what will be shut off during failure of either
alternator. Also, if you're carrying a pair of 17 a.h. batteries,
you've got chemical energy stored up out the waazoo . . . I'd sure
like to see you consider and publish a checklist of what to do if
(1) main alternator failure, (2) aux alternator failure for both
the cruise and approach to landing modes. It's not that we don't
believe you have redundancy and capacity to burn . . . I think it's
an excellent exercise in understanding exactly how your system is
expected to perform. With a Z-14, I don't think it's necessary to
put in a new battery every year. Do you plan to crank with both
batteries?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
A short side note,
just make sure you clean the location where you add the strap very
toroughly, I had an engine start problem first, because I did not do it
good enough (was hard to get the backed paint from the lug).
BTW on my O-320 it was an AN-5 hole.
Kind regards
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Oke" <wjoke(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Strap Location?
>
> Joe;
>
> Some (probably not all) Lycomings have a "spare" bolt hole in a sort of
> triangular web cast into the crankcase in the vicinity of the base of the
> oil stick housing. This seems to be sized for an AN3 bolt and works nicely
> for a ground strap installation depending on how and where you route the
> ground strap. I used this point on my Aerosport O-320 but I have not seen
it
> in all O-320s and an O-235 may simply be different.
>
> As Bob has said, the should be no reason not to use most any location on
the
> engine. A lug under one of the sump bolts is another common location.
>
> Jim Oke
> Wpg, MB
> RV-6A with O-320
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Dubner" <jdubner(at)yahoo.com>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Strap Location?
>
>
> >
> > Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
> > ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
> > Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
> > Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
> > with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Joe
> > Long-EZ 821RP
> > Clarkston, WA
> >
> >
> > > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Strap Location?
> > >
>
> > >
> > >>
> > >>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
> > >>
> > >>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry
for
> > >>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
> > >>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
> > >>
> > >>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
> > >>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is
futile.
> > >> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
> > >>
> > >>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine
ground
> > >>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
> > >>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
> > >>bolt.
> > >
> > > DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
> > > 5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
> > > may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
> > > in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
> > >
> > > The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
> > > to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
> > > can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
> > > the rear of their Lycoming engines.
> > >
> > > A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
> > > ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
> > > See view -B- of
> > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> >
August 31, 2003 - September 12, 2003
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ck