AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cm
September 29, 2003 - October 13, 2003
>
> It is currently sourced from the instrument panel
>power switch (which is in turn sourced from the master
>power switch), and is simply a cheap switch that looks like
>it came from Radio Shack.
>I'm thinking of rewiring this to use a 5A circuit breaker
>in place of the cheap switch, and source it directly
>from the master power switch, and mount it above the
>low voltage warning light. My thoughts are that I can
>pull the circuit breaker, and that effectively acts as a "switch".
>
> Is this sound reasoning, or am I missing something critical
>and there is a better way to do this?
The master switch is generally not a source of power
but a closure to ground for the battery contactor.
If it's a single pole switch now, it needs to be
a two pole switch and wired like shown in
various architectures depicted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Check these out and see if they offer useable
suggestions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: COZY: Somebody is Infected!!! |
These worms have been flooding into my machine for days now, all from the
cozy builders group, the canard aviators group, or the Aeroelectric list..
My virus scanner always catches them but it's darned annoying since each
one needs handling. I get ~15 a day on average.
To Marc + canard/ Matronics moderators; is there anything we can do to trap
them at the mail servers?
To Jay....don't assume you're safe because "we don't download files from
each other". Damaging code can be embedded or attached to a mail and hurt
you just as badly. Make sure your virus definitions are always up-to-date.
Neil
At 06:03 PM 9/29/03, CozyCrafter(at)aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 9/29/2003 3:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>CozyBuilders(at)DrewChaplinPhoto.Com writes:
>Hello all,
>
>I have received several messages from somebody on this list with the
>"W32.Swen.A@mm" virus. I only use this particular email account for
>this group, so I know it has originated here. I do not know who is
>sending it out because it's hidden the user. The message appears to
>come from the Network Security Department at Microsoft and has the
>subject of "Current Microsoft Upgrade". The attached file name is
>Pack3221. My Antivirus program is catching and I hope yours has done
>the same. It's a fairly new virus and your Antivirus software has to
>have been updated since 9/18/2003 to find it. As I said before, I use
>the CozyBuilders(at)DrewChaplinPhoto.com email address only for this group
>and nothing else. The message came in on it.
>
>By the way,
>ROUGH RIVER WAS A BLAST!!!!
>Thank you Dan & Lori Cruger for the ride!
>
>Well worth the Drive
>Drew Chaplin
>----
>Cozy Mark IV
>SN# 1200 Prebuild & Planning
>
>
>I dont know much about computers (relative) but I dont see how this is a
>problem since we dont download files from each other. Please explain. Jay
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RC Allen Gyro electrical connector - Photo Correction |
>
>
> >
> >I just got an RC Allen electric Gyro and need information on the
> >connector.
> >The connector is an Amphenol MS3116E8-4P and -4S.
> >I am told to connect Pin A to Ground and Pin B to +14 volts.
> >I cannot identify pins A and pin B on the connector, the markings makes
> >no sense to me.
> >I do not want to risk connecting it reverse polarity.
>
> See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/MS3116E8-4S.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
Ughh!! did something silly in Photoshop with the first image
and didn't check it after I uploaded it. I've corrected the
poor craftsmanship and re-posted the picture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 with SD-8???? |
>
>Bob
>
>Do you have a version of Z-14 with an SD-8 alternator using the voltage
>regulator that comes with it.
>
>Regards
>
>Nick Gaglia
>Livermore RV-8
Nick,
When you reply to an AEList post, trim away the original
document as much as you can and still provide continuity
to the conversation thread. In this case, you opened a new
thread where none of what you echoed back to the list was
relevant to the topic yet it was a huge document . . .
If the aux alternator has only 8A rated output, I think
it would be much better to configure the system using Z-13.
If you want dual batteries, fine. Simply add second battery
per Z-30. Which ever battery is tasked with e-bus support
also gets the aux alternator connection.
During main alternator out operations, you don't use
any of the SD-8's limited output to keep a contactor
closed. You have essentially all SD-8 output available
for unlimited endurance bus ops. When airport is in
sight, you can close both battery contactors and
have energy to burn. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z13wDualBattery.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rino <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: RC Allen Gyro electrical connector |
> >I just got an RC Allen electric Gyro and need information on the
> >connector.
> >The connector is an Amphenol MS3116E8-4P and -4S.
> >I am told to connect Pin A to Ground and Pin B to +14 volts.
> >I cannot identify pins A and pin B on the connector, the markings makes
> >no sense to me.
> >I do not want to risk connecting it reverse polarity.
>
> See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/MS3116E8-4S.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
Thanks Bob --- solved my problem.
Rino
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tele2.it> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 wiring problem |
You can download the installation manual from Garmin's website.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>I am installing my Garmin 430. It was pre-wired, meaning connectors are
>>wired with wires hanging out and labeled. I can not find any wires labled
>>gps data out. I have d/l the pinouts from AE's site and none of the
>>connectors seems to have this designation. I am trying to drive my Navaid
>>with the 430 gps. I surely hope that this thing has a gps data out. Do they
>>call it something different?
>>Thanks
>>Mike Stewart
>>
>>
>
> shuckypoo . . . I did a 430 installation in the AGATE Bonanza
> a a couple of years ago and had a copy of the complete installation
> manual from Garmin. Dug around in the archives and couldn't put
> my hands on it. I probably gave it back to the folks at RAC.
> Sorry.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neil Henderson" <neil.mo51(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Wiring |
Thanks for the various responses to my posting, copy below. The consensus seem
to be a standard sized pulley and I will machine a replacement from alloy. Still
not sure about connections required. It would appear only one of the three
pins is connected, other than the main power lead. Does anyone know which one?
( the connector has three small pins in a straight line ), or is there a way
of testing. Thanks for your help.
Regards Neil Hederson
Original message
>I have obtained an almost new Nipon Denzo alternator off a Toyota which I
>intend fitting to a Lyco320 In my RV9.
>I have a couple of questions. Firstly I assume it's internally regulated
>although it has a 3 wire socket, what are the 3 connections for and is a
>mating plug readily available. Van's sell one that looks as if fits.
>Secondly it is currently fitted with a flat belt pulley which I need to
>change this to a V belt. I seem to recall Bob Avery used to sell a larger
>dia pulley, is this worth considering and if not could anyone direct me to
>source of standard sized pulleys
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
| Subject: | Garmin 430 wiring problem |
> You can download the installation manual from Garmin's website.
I did just that a couple years ago, but I can't find the install manuals
on their site anymore. A call to their support might clarify things,
perhaps they can be downloaded on request.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 375 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 19:25, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Hi all,
> > I'm rebuilding/rewiring some of the electrics on a
> >used Glasair that I bought, and in particular know that the
> >alternator field cut-off switch is not "right" at present.
> >
> > It is currently sourced from the instrument panel
> >power switch (which is in turn sourced from the master
> >power switch), and is simply a cheap switch that looks like
> >it came from Radio Shack.
> >I'm thinking of rewiring this to use a 5A circuit breaker
> >in place of the cheap switch, and source it directly
> >from the master power switch, and mount it above the
> >low voltage warning light. My thoughts are that I can
> >pull the circuit breaker, and that effectively acts as a "switch".
> >
> > Is this sound reasoning, or am I missing something critical
> >and there is a better way to do this?
>
>
> The master switch is generally not a source of power
> but a closure to ground for the battery contactor.
>
Hi Bob,
What I meant to type was master power BUSS, not switch.
That's what I get when I let my fingers do the typing without
the brain attached... :-)
I guess the real question I have is would it be okay to
just use a 5A pullable circuit breaker instead of the
breaker and switch combination that is traditional for the alt. field?
My thoughts, which may be wrong, is that you'd want the
alternator enabled all the time anyways, unless there was a
problem with it, in which case you can pull the breaker just
as easily as throwing a switch. I'd source the 5A breaker
from the master power buss. The alt. field is currently
sourced through the circuit breaker that powers all of the
panel instruments (not avionics), which doesn't seem like a
good thing to me. I'd like to move it to its own breaker,
but due to very limited panel space, would like to
eliminate the switch and just use the breaker.
You've got me doubting my memory, so I'll have to go
check again to be sure, but I believe the master power
switch is only a single throw, single contact switch.
I think at some point I am going to have to rewire the
entire plane, since I have my doubts about some of the other
wiring as well, but am not ready for that task just yet.
Currently I'm just trying to improve a little where I can.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux."
-Anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | AeroElectric-List Digest Subscribers |
All AEList subscribers should be aware that when you simply
reply to a List message on your screen that ALL of the
incoming message gets appended to your reply. If you're a
AEList Digest subscriber, it's possible to make a one-sentence
reply to something with LOTS of irrelevant stuff tacked on
behind it.
It's a good thing to forward snippets of an original message
interspersed with your comments to maintain continuity
of the conversation. Every Digest subscriber needs to
be especially watchful . . . it's really easy to "clog
the pipes" with useless stuff.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Wiring |
>
>
>Thanks for the various responses to my posting, copy below. The consensus
>seem to be a standard sized pulley and I will machine a replacement from alloy.
Have you checked with an alternator shop? They can
often supply a pulley for a price much more reasonable
than carving your own . . . salvage yards are potential
sources too.
> Still not sure about connections required. It would appear only one of
> the three pins is connected, other than the main power lead. Does anyone
> know which one? ( the connector has three small pins in a straight line
> ), or is there a way of testing. Thanks for your help.
Are there any pin labels cast into the housing?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off |
>
> >
>
>Hi Bob,
> What I meant to type was master power BUSS, not switch.
>That's what I get when I let my fingers do the typing without
>the brain attached... :-)
>
> I guess the real question I have is would it be okay to
>just use a 5A pullable circuit breaker instead of the
>breaker and switch combination that is traditional for the alt. field?
>My thoughts, which may be wrong, is that you'd want the
>alternator enabled all the time anyways, unless there was a
>problem with it, in which case you can pull the breaker just
>as easily as throwing a switch.
Unless you've tested your alternator/regulator combination
for sans-battery operations, you should consider shutting
of the alternator automatically any time battery is off.
This was the rational behind development of the infamous
split-rocker battery-master common to so many contemporary
production aircraft. It's also the reason all of our
suggested power distribution diagrams show a two-pole
DC PWR MASTER switch wired to produced the cited
behavior.
> I'd source the 5A breaker
>from the master power buss. The alt. field is currently
>sourced through the circuit breaker that powers all of the
>panel instruments (not avionics), which doesn't seem like a
>good thing to me. I'd like to move it to its own breaker,
>but due to very limited panel space, would like to
>eliminate the switch and just use the breaker.
>
> You've got me doubting my memory, so I'll have to go
>check again to be sure, but I believe the master power
>switch is only a single throw, single contact switch.
>I think at some point I am going to have to rewire the
>entire plane, since I have my doubts about some of the other
>wiring as well, but am not ready for that task just yet.
>Currently I'm just trying to improve a little where I can.
You can do as you've suggested but I don't recommend
it. If it were my airplane, it would get a two pole
master switch -AND- an independent field supply
breaker.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: E-mail Contact Request |
>>Thank you for your inquiry to Bob Nuckolls submitted on Tuesday,
>>September 30, 2003.
>
>Bob,
>I've got an electrical problem with my Jurca Sirocco. During flight, the
>voltage regulator circuit breaker tripped. It will not reset. And after
>flight, if I reset it, as soon as the master switch is turned on, the V-R
>breaker trips. I recently installed a new Electrosystems alternator from
>Aircraft Spruce, but it worked okay until this breaker thingy started.
>I'm not sure if I should suspect the new alternator, the wiring, or the
>voltage regulator. My plane has the Prestolite voltage regulator, with the
>separate overvoltage module next to it. Before I start replacing these
>expensive components, I'd rather troubleshoot. My question is, what could
>cause the voltage regulator breaker to trip? Could a wiring short cause
>this? or would it more likely be the voltage regulator? Or maybe the
>alternator. I've inclosed the schematic of my electrical system. If you
>have an idea of where would be best to start, I sure would appreciate it.
>I have an multimeter that checks voltage (DC&AC) and ohms. (radio shack
>type) Thanks, Richard May
>
I've highlighted the drawing you sent me. You have
a rudimentary trouble shooting task. Someplace along
the pathway highlighted there is a short and/or failed
component. I'd start at the alternator and momentarily
disconnect wires until the breaker stops tripping. When
you find the first clearance point for the fault, the
problem lies between the last point where the fault
existed and the first fault-free point. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/BobMay.jpg
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Well considered and technically elegant answers to
all of your questions are waiting for you there.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: COZY: Somebody is Infected!!! |
For those who have been living in a cave:
The current virus harvests email addresses from UseNet and then spoofs
the senders address from that list...
The people supposedly sending you the infected mail did not send you that
mail...
Ranting and railing at them is a waste of energy... Make sure you know what
to do to block this spam... My email firewall is showing 200 to 500 emails a
day it is dumping...
Denny
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Microair 760 Ground Confusion |
I am installing my 760 and have run into the conflict between the
Microair manual and Bob's Audio Iso Amp (which I am using)
instructions. Microair says to keep the microphone grounds separate
from supply negative (using pin 2 on the connector exclusively) and to
connect all other signals to supply neg. The Audio Iso Amp drawing 2.1
shows the headsets and PTT grounds sharing pin 2 with the mics. My
instinct is to connect as Bob advises, but why the note in the Microair
manual?
Also, the intercom switch is shown with a panel ground- is there a
specific reason this is segregated from the others?
I recall some discussion on the A-list some time back but after much
archive-wading could not find it- sorry to rehash!
Thanks!
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
I saw your email re your Sirrocco. There is a Sirrocco project on Ebay
and I'm looking for a project---what are your thoughts on the Sirrocco? Geoff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 13:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Unless you've tested your alternator/regulator combination
> for sans-battery operations, you should consider shutting
> of the alternator automatically any time battery is off.
> This was the rational behind development of the infamous
> split-rocker battery-master common to so many contemporary
> production aircraft. It's also the reason all of our
> suggested power distribution diagrams show a two-pole
> DC PWR MASTER switch wired to produced the cited
> behavior.
Effectively, in its current wiring, and my
proposed, the alt field power is cut whenever the
master power switch is off, thus disabling
both battery power and alt power at the same time.
The circuit breaker will allow independant cut-off
of the alt. field, leaving battery power running.
> You can do as you've suggested but I don't recommend
> it. If it were my airplane, it would get a two pole
> master switch -AND- an independent field supply
> breaker.
I know. The wiring at present is a mess, IMHO.
I'm just trying to clean up the electrical mess on the
plane, and literally will have to rewire a lot to
make it "right" in my opinion (and yours).
Short term, I can at least make the alt. field cutoff
independant of the panel power, and long term, I need
to redesign the panel to have the room to put in
the appropriate breakers and switches.
I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making
anything worse by my proposed change.
I'll poke around to see if I can find a two pole
switch that will fit in place of the single pole
that is there now, and make it part of the short term fix.
Thanks for the advice and the great
book - it has been enlightening!
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux."
-Anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: COZY: Somebody is Infected!!! |
Hello Neil,
the list will not send any attachements to you and you should know, that
most
of the today's mass mailing worms are spoofing the sender adress, all
entries!
So you can hope that finally the originator finds out about his infection by
himself.
I can only urge to everybody, use an always current virus scanner and update
at least
once a week or even better get one which will update automotically.
Kind regards
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Clayton" <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: COZY: Somebody is Infected!!!
>
> These worms have been flooding into my machine for days now, all from the
> cozy builders group, the canard aviators group, or the Aeroelectric list..
> My virus scanner always catches them but it's darned annoying since each
> one needs handling. I get ~15 a day on average.
>
> To Marc + canard/ Matronics moderators; is there anything we can do to
trap
> them at the mail servers?
>
> To Jay....don't assume you're safe because "we don't download files from
> each other". Damaging code can be embedded or attached to a mail and hurt
> you just as badly. Make sure your virus definitions are always up-to-date.
>
> Neil
>
>
> At 06:03 PM 9/29/03, CozyCrafter(at)aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 9/29/2003 3:01:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> >CozyBuilders(at)DrewChaplinPhoto.Com writes:
> >Hello all,
> >
> >I have received several messages from somebody on this list with the
> >"W32.Swen.A@mm" virus. I only use this particular email account for
> >this group, so I know it has originated here. I do not know who is
> >sending it out because it's hidden the user. The message appears to
> >come from the Network Security Department at Microsoft and has the
> >subject of "Current Microsoft Upgrade". The attached file name is
> >Pack3221. My Antivirus program is catching and I hope yours has done
> >the same. It's a fairly new virus and your Antivirus software has to
> >have been updated since 9/18/2003 to find it. As I said before, I use
> >the CozyBuilders(at)DrewChaplinPhoto.com email address only for this group
> >and nothing else. The message came in on it.
> >
> >By the way,
> >ROUGH RIVER WAS A BLAST!!!!
> >Thank you Dan & Lori Cruger for the ride!
> >
> >Well worth the Drive
> >Drew Chaplin
> >----
> >Cozy Mark IV
> >SN# 1200 Prebuild & Planning
> >
> >
> >I dont know much about computers (relative) but I dont see how this is a
> >problem since we dont download files from each other. Please explain. Jay
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off |
>
>
>On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 13:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making
>anything worse by my proposed change.
>
> I'll poke around to see if I can find a two pole
>switch that will fit in place of the single pole
>that is there now, and make it part of the short term fix.
Take a look at the S700-2-10 from B&C at
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?11X358218
This is a progressive transfer switch that will probably
fit the space you have. It mimics the operation of a
split rocker when wired as shown in the Z-drawings.
> Thanks for the advice and the great
>book - it has been enlightening!
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 Ground Confusion |
>
>I am installing my 760 and have run into the conflict between the
>Microair manual and Bob's Audio Iso Amp (which I am using)
>instructions. Microair says to keep the microphone grounds separate
>from supply negative (using pin 2 on the connector exclusively) and to
>connect all other signals to supply neg. The Audio Iso Amp drawing 2.1
>shows the headsets and PTT grounds sharing pin 2 with the mics. My
>instinct is to connect as Bob advises, but why the note in the Microair
>manual?
Wire per http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
page 2.1 of drawings in the back. The reason I wrote my own
installation manual for the 760VHF was because of less than
clear and/or well reasoned instructions and terminology
in the factory manual.
>Also, the intercom switch is shown with a panel ground- is there a
>specific reason this is segregated from the others?
It doesn't matter where this grounds . . . it is not a signal
line and is easier to ground it to the single point panel ground
than to tie it back into the radio harness.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off |
Bob,
What does "progressive transfer" mean in ref to the S-700-2-10?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator field cut-off
>
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 13:17, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
>
>
>
>
> > I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making
> >anything worse by my proposed change.
> >
> > I'll poke around to see if I can find a two pole
> >switch that will fit in place of the single pole
> >that is there now, and make it part of the short term fix.
>
> Take a look at the S700-2-10 from B&C at
> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?11X358218
>
> This is a progressive transfer switch that will probably
> fit the space you have. It mimics the operation of a
> split rocker when wired as shown in the Z-drawings.
>
>
> > Thanks for the advice and the great
> >book - it has been enlightening!
>
> My pleasure sir.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>What does "progressive transfer" mean in ref to the S-700-2-10?
>
>David Carter
Study the schematic symbols for the S700-2-10 and S700-2-50
switches in http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
figure Z11 or figure Z-11 in the Rev 10 book.
These are 3 position switches . . . the schematic depicts
how one side of the two-pole switch transfers at a time as
you move from one position to another instead of moving
exactly together as one might usually expect from a multi-pole
device.
Also see
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: TRAFFIC ALERT ATD-200 |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
On Wed, 2003-10-01 at 23:45, Ian Scott wrote:
>
> HI all,
>
> I have asked this before, however what are people paying for the above
> traffic detection device?
I paid $200 on Ebay about a month ago for a refurbished unit.
It works in the sense that it will tell you there is
traffic nearby, but don't trust the numeric readout
for distance. Mine has been as much as 2 miles off.
However, it does at least warn you that something is
within 5 miles, which is all I really care about.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux."
-Anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Art/Sue Bertolina" <artbertolina(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm trying to determine the difference between the EDM-800 and the 900. Does
the 900 add enough to your panel
to justify the added cost ?. It will be monitoring a TSIO 520BE that has
been built to TSIO 550 with hi-compression pistons and reworked turbo's. I
intend to
run the engine Lean of Peak at cruise. If anyone out there
knows these instruments I would appreciate your input
Art Bertolina
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 10/1/03 3:22:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
artbertolina(at)earthlink.net writes:
> I'm trying to determine the difference between the EDM-800 and the 900.
> Does
> the 900 add enough to your panel
> to justify the added cost ?. It will be monitoring a TSIO 520BE that has
> been built to TSIO 550 with hi-compression pistons and reworked turbo's. I
> intend to
> run the engine Lean of Peak at cruise. If anyone out there
> knows these instruments I would appreciate your input
> Art Bertolina
>
Good Afternoon Art,
May I suggest that you contact George Braly or Tim Roehl at Tornado Alley
Turbos concerning the desired instrumentation? I think you will find the at
George and Tim have the greatest amount of knowledge currently available concerning
the operation, care and feeding of those engines.
George occasionally makes comments on this forum.
Try: http://www.taturbo.com/frames.html
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator field cut-off] |
>Dear Bob,
>
>first let me express my thanks to your ever perpetual and never resting
>dealing with
>all the different questions posed to you - and this is good for the flyer
>community!!!
>
>For some days now I follow your advice from the distance here in Germany
>and also - so
>I believe, I have read all your articles contained in Aeroelectrics.....
Thank you for the kind words. I'm pleased that the
effort is useful and makes sense too . . .
>However, this subject of alternator field cut-off makes me wonder, whether
>this
>also applies not only to alternators, but also to GENERATORS as well.
>
>In our aero club we have a C172B with a Delco-Remy P/N 1101898 and
>regulator P/N 1118704 ( 14V 35A).
>
>Since the double pole single throw master switch is very iffy ( ammeter
>jerking...)
>I intend to exchange it with a new one.
>
>Shouldn't I follow your rational and also install a sort of "progressive
>transfer switch"
>instead of the DPST?
EXCELLENT question. In fact, some of the certified kits for
generator replacement with an alternator left the original
separate and independent control of battery and engine
driven power sources in place. Fact is, a GENERATOR will
excite and run well without a battery on line . . . independent
operation and control of the two sources wasn't a problem.
It wasn't until alternators came along that the classic
two-switch control system became problematical.
As far as I know, the split-rocker master was birthed
at Cessna . . . designed so that the alternator can be
turned off leaving battery on, but turning the battery
off takes the alternator off too. In spite of its
very simple concept and operation (you can duplicate it
with the -10 progressive switch) the split rocker fit
Cessna Marketing's notion of how the panel should look
and operate. The spit rocker has taken on a aura of
holiness over the years. I've seen many airplanes with
the red, split-rocker master switch that didn't match
any other switch in the airplane!
So, replacement of the generator control switch with
a single switch as supplied by the factory is a perfectly
reasonable thing to do . . . if you ever replace the
generator with an alternator, combining alternator and
battery master switches into a single -10 switch (or if the
split rocker gives you a whizz . . . why not?).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Wiring |
No, it's actually over speeding the alternator causing wear of the
bearings. Lyc's have a very large dia. pulley on the starter ring - if you
figure the ratio if it going 2500 RPM, you would be spinning the alternator
8000 RPM or more.
>
>Hello Neil,
>
>Keep in mind that the clearance between the cowling and the larger diameter
>pulleys can be a nuisance factor.
>Four inch would be a bit too large on my setup for an O360. On your O320
>your distance might vary.
>There is a lot of info in the archives re-larger pulleys and alternator
>speed. I think the main concern would be too low voltage output at idle.
>
>Jim in Kelowna
>
> .----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neil Clayton" <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Wiring
>
>
>
> >
> > Spruce sells a 4", "V" pulley. Page 245, $48.95.
> > Check the ID
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > At 03:47 AM 9/27/03, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Listers
> > >
> > >I have obtained an almost new Nipon Denzo alternator off a Toyota which I
> > >intend fitting to a Lyco320 In my RV9.
> > >I have a couple of questions. Firstly I assume it's internally regulated
> > >although it has a 3 wire socket, what are the 3 connections for and is a
> > >mating plug readily available. Van's sell one that looks as if fits.
> > >Secondly it is currently fitted with a flat belt pulley which I need to
> > >change this to a V belt. I seem to recall Bob Avery used to sell a larger
> > >dia pulley, is this worth considering and if not could anyone direct me
>to
> > >source of standard sized pulleys.
> > >
> > >Thanks for your help.
> > >
> > >Neil Henderson RV9-A n/r Aylesbury UK
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Wiring |
Hi "jerb",
The last I heard spinning an alternator at 8000 rpm. is well within any
usefull limitations on it's bearing life.
As far as belt friction and adverse heat generation are conserned the older
style V-belts are happier on larger pulleys. I expect this is a big part of
why the auto industry went over to the Micro-V type belts.
Depending on the size of the larger alternator pulley you choose you might
find that the alternator output at idle is adversely effected.
In the past more than one builder has encountered the need to add a blister
to the cowl to clear the alternator pulley. The likelihood of this occurring
is increased when a larger diameter pulley is installed.
I in fact have a 3.5" pulley on my O360. this pulley clears the cowling by
about 1/4" and I might have to consider reducing it's size for cowling
clearance reasons.
The engine came with accessories and the "starter ring" had been modified to
utilize a Gates Micro-V belt that drives the alternator.
He also made the 3.5" pulley It looks to me the fellow that made the pulley
modifications did a great job and I will go with his idea until testing and
actual use cause a change of course.
I will certainly be happy to hear from a qualified person if what I have had
quoted to me as safe alternator RPM. limitations needs to be brought up to
speed (;}.
I think a look in the archives will show that this has been hashed out some
before.
Try searching the archives wit (alternator rpm) or (alternator speed).
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerb" <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Wiring
>
> No, it's actually over speeding the alternator causing wear of the
> bearings. Lyc's have a very large dia. pulley on the starter ring - if
you
> figure the ratio if it going 2500 RPM, you would be spinning the
alternator
> 8000 RPM or more.
>
>
> >
> >Hello Neil,
> >
> >Keep in mind that the clearance between the cowling and the larger
diameter
> >pulleys can be a nuisance factor.
> >Four inch would be a bit too large on my setup for an O360. On your O320
> >your distance might vary.
> >There is a lot of info in the archives re-larger pulleys and alternator
> >speed. I think the main concern would be too low voltage output at idle.
> >
> >Jim in Kelowna
> >
> > .----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Neil Clayton" <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Wiring
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Spruce sells a 4", "V" pulley. Page 245, $48.95.
> > > Check the ID
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > At 03:47 AM 9/27/03, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Listers
> > > >
> > > >I have obtained an almost new Nipon Denzo alternator off a Toyota
which I
> > > >intend fitting to a Lyco320 In my RV9.
> > > >I have a couple of questions. Firstly I assume it's internally
regulated
> > > >although it has a 3 wire socket, what are the 3 connections for and
is a
> > > >mating plug readily available. Van's sell one that looks as if fits.
> > > >Secondly it is currently fitted with a flat belt pulley which I need
to
> > > >change this to a V belt. I seem to recall Bob Avery used to sell a
larger
> > > >dia pulley, is this worth considering and if not could anyone direct
me
> >to
> > > >source of standard sized pulleys.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks for your help.
> > > >
> > > >Neil Henderson RV9-A n/r Aylesbury UK
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Use of individual wires from a Mil-Spec C-27500 cable |
Bob & Listers,
I was given a large quantity of Mil Spec Aviation wiring from a friend. Some of
this wire was 22 & 20 gauge C-27500 shielded 2 & 3 wire cable. Some of this
cable had been stripped of it's outer sheath and shielding. This cable has color
coded wires inside (red, blue & yellow). Are these individual wires OK to use
on my RV-8A project? It appears that the insulation is slightly thinner on
these wires as compared to individual Mil 22759/16 wires. I'd like to use this
wire, but I want to make sure that I am not "cutting corners" in doing so. Opinions
please.
Charlie Kuss
RV-8A going cross eyed looking at wiring schematics
SE Florida
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bass" <george_bass_0(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TRAFFIC ALERT ATD-200 |
>From: "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: TRAFFIC ALERT ATD-200
>Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:45:44 -0700 DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 (2.8 points)
>Date: is 12 to 24 hours after Received: date
>
>
>
>HI all,
>
>I have asked this before, however what are people paying for the above
>traffic detection device?
>
>Thanks
>
>Ian
>
I have no experience with the item you asked about, but, I bought
one of the TPAS devices from "SureChek". It is surface-mount using
velcro, or some other method, and is commonly placed on top of the
panel. I like the unit a great deal, and would certainly purchase again
if I was in the market.
HOWEVER, the unit you mentioned may be a panel-mount-type, and
the reason I'm writing this, is that the company has indicated that
they will have a panel-mount unit available late this year. You might
want to look them up and see if it is ready, or what it will cost.
Their address an the web is:
http://www.surecheckaviation.com/index.php
Hope this helps,
George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dean Psiropoulos" <deanpsir(at)easystreet.com> |
Anyone know whats going on with the list, the last three days I have
received what appears to be the prior day's list concatenated with the
present day's list. Today the subject line said 17 messages but it looks
like I've only received the first new message posted today followed by the
last three days lists tacked on afterwords. Since the whole thing is
getting to be many many pages long with this craziness and I don't appear to
be receiving the days new postings, I'll have to unsubscribe from the list
if this doesn't get corrected soon. Is anyone else having this problem?
I'm not getting the messages as they come through so maybe if I switch to
that mode (from the once daily concatenated list) things will work better
(except I'll have tons more email messages every night and I don't cherish
weeding through all that).
Dean Psiropoulos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tele2.it> |
Bob,
Just out of curiosity, why doesn't B&C use fast-ons on their voltage
regulators?
John Herminghaus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: List weirdness. |
I think the List operation and digest are fine. The problem with
yesterday's digest is that someone - well, okay Ronnie Brown :-) - replied
to the previous day's *digest* message and included all of the digest in
his post. If you look at the Digest carefully, you'll see that Message 2
from yesterday is REALLY long, then comes Message 3 and the rest of the
day's messages which are all normal sized.
http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list/Digest.AeroElectric-List.2003-09-30.txt
The bottom line I guess, is PLEASE when you reply to a message - ESPECIALLY
a DIGEST message - edit out all of the stuff that doesn't directly apply to
your post!!!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin...
At 08:51 PM 10/1/2003 Wednesday, you wrote:
>
>
>Anyone know whats going on with the list, the last three days I have
>received what appears to be the prior day's list concatenated with the
>present day's list. Today the subject line said 17 messages but it looks
>like I've only received the first new message posted today followed by the
>last three days lists tacked on afterwords. Since the whole thing is
>getting to be many many pages long with this craziness and I don't appear to
>be receiving the days new postings, I'll have to unsubscribe from the list
>if this doesn't get corrected soon. Is anyone else having this problem?
>I'm not getting the messages as they come through so maybe if I switch to
>that mode (from the once daily concatenated list) things will work better
>(except I'll have tons more email messages every night and I don't cherish
>weeding through all that).
>
>
>Dean Psiropoulos
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle) |
"Re: AeroElectric-List: List weirdness." (Oct 1, 9:57pm)
| Subject: | List weirdness. [Update...] |
Update on this issue...
Looking at my filters in some detail tonight, I discovered that my
"The poster has included all or most of the Digest in their reply"
Detector was broken and not bouncing messages that included all of
the previous day's digest text.
I've fixed the problem and the detector is once again functioning as
designed!
The real bottom line...? Posters still should trim that quoted reply
text WAY down when replying to a message, especially a Digest message,
but at least now the worst offenders will be intercepted! :-)
Basically how it works is that if a poster does included all or most of
the previous day's Digest in a reply, they will receive a polite
email message back indicating what they've done asking that they trim the
quoted text down and try reposting.
Best regards,
Matt
>--------------
>I think the List operation and digest are fine. The problem with
>yesterday's digest is that someone - well, okay Ronnie Brown :-) - replied
>to the previous day's *digest* message and included all of the digest in
>his post. If you look at the Digest carefully, you'll see that Message 2
>from yesterday is REALLY long, then comes Message 3 and the rest of the
>day's messages which are all normal sized.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list/Digest.AeroElectric-List.2003-09-30.txt
>
>The bottom line I guess, is PLEASE when you reply to a message - ESPECIALLY
>a DIGEST message - edit out all of the stuff that doesn't directly apply to
>your post!!!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Matt Dralle
>Email List Admin...
>
>
>At 08:51 PM 10/1/2003 Wednesday, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>Anyone know whats going on with the list, the last three days I have
>>received what appears to be the prior day's list concatenated with the
>>present day's list. Today the subject line said 17 messages but it looks
>>like I've only received the first new message posted today followed by the
>>last three days lists tacked on afterwords. Since the whole thing is
>>getting to be many many pages long with this craziness and I don't appear to
>>be receiving the days new postings, I'll have to unsubscribe from the list
>>if this doesn't get corrected soon. Is anyone else having this problem?
>>I'm not getting the messages as they come through so maybe if I switch to
>>that mode (from the once daily concatenated list) things will work better
>>(except I'll have tons more email messages every night and I don't cherish
>>weeding through all that).
>>
>>
>>Dean Psiropoulos
>
>
>Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
>925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
>http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
>--------------
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
-------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | relay diagram for Microair PTT |
--0-1662827501-1065101367=:90978
How exactly are the relays wired on the Microair PTTs? The schematic that Microair
supplies is a little confusing for me.
I don't like always having it hot. When the relays are installed how does it decide
who gets to transmit if both switches are pushed (whoever is first? It becomes
hot again so both can talk at the same time?)
Which relays to use (prefereably something small and light and cheap)?
Thanks!
Joa
---------------------------------
--0-1662827501-1065101367=:90978
How exactly are the relays wired on the Microair PTTs? The schematic that
Microair supplies is a little confusing for me.
I don't like always having it hot. When the relays are installed how does
it decide who gets to transmit if both switches are pushed (whoever is first?It
becomes hot again so both can talk at the same time?)
Which relays to use (prefereably something small and light and cheap)?
Thanks!
Joa
--0-1662827501-1065101367=:90978--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Just out of curiosity, why doesn't B&C use fast-ons on their voltage
>regulators?
>
>John Herminghaus
The regulator was designed in the year 8 BFO . . . (before fast ons).
We were not even considering their suitability and utility in system
fabrication at the time. We wrestled with whether or not to use
terminal screws or some kind of connector (95% of my customers for
certified product shun terminal strips . . . too easy to mess up
wire placement in the field). Terminal strips were chosen for
cost effectiveness. Now that these regulators are part of STC'd
kits, they are for all practical purposes, cast in stone. If
I do any new designs for OBAM aircraft, they will be fitted with
a connector.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator speeds and belt tensions. |
>
>Hi "jerb",
>
>The last I heard spinning an alternator at 8000 rpm. is well within any
>usefull limitations on it's bearing life.
B&C alternators have racked up tens of thousands of flight
hours running well over 10KRPM with great success.
>As far as belt friction and adverse heat generation are conserned the older
>style V-belts are happier on larger pulleys. I expect this is a big part of
>why the auto industry went over to the Micro-V type belts.
>Depending on the size of the larger alternator pulley you choose you might
>find that the alternator output at idle is adversely effected.
agree
>In the past more than one builder has encountered the need to add a blister
>to the cowl to clear the alternator pulley. The likelihood of this occurring
>is increased when a larger diameter pulley is installed.
correct
>I in fact have a 3.5" pulley on my O360. this pulley clears the cowling by
>about 1/4" and I might have to consider reducing it's size for cowling
>clearance reasons.
>The engine came with accessories and the "starter ring" had been modified to
>utilize a Gates Micro-V belt that drives the alternator.
>He also made the 3.5" pulley It looks to me the fellow that made the pulley
>modifications did a great job and I will go with his idea until testing and
>actual use cause a change of course.
that was a LOT of trouble and expense for nearly
immeasurable benefit . . .
>I will certainly be happy to hear from a qualified person if what I have had
>quoted to me as safe alternator RPM. limitations needs to be brought up to
>speed (;}.
>
>I think a look in the archives will show that this has been hashed out some
>before.
>Try searching the archives wit (alternator rpm) or (alternator speed).
Someone asked the question a few days ago, "What is the method
for PROPER tightening of the alternator belt." A fair question
since I've used the phrase many times. I and folks at B&C have
been digging through the engineering literature on belts. If one
wishes to install a belt for a particular tension, there are
many non-cheap instruments you can purchase to actually measure
and thus facilitate adjustment of belt tension.
Okay, how do we pick a PROPER tension and can it be done without
relying on expensive and seldom used instrumentation. Further,
in light of more than half a century of "stick the crowbar in there,
stretch 'er tighter than hell and cinch it down" techniques
used in FBO and OBAM aircraft shops alike, belt life has not
bubbled up to the top of our most pressing maintenance problems.
After several days of picking though the sparse data, I'm
about to conclude that actual tension settings for any
particular application are empirically derived by the
system engineer, not the belt engineer. Belts are loosely
spec'd for horsepower ratings assuming a certain RPM (usually
1750 - common motor output speed for many industrial situations)
on the smallest pulley . . . which has nothing in common
with the way we use the belts on airplanes.
Intuitively, a belt running too tight is overstressed and
life is reduced while bearing loads are excessive and
reduces life of those components as well. A belt too loose
slips, wears rapidly and prevents the alternator from
running at max performance. The range of tension values
between too tight and too loose is huge. Obviously, from
the pilot's perspective, the best thing is to err on the
side of too tight and watch the belt for service life issues
on the ground instead of discovering them in the air.
Given our knowledge of decades of service history watching
quality (Gates) belts run quality (ND) alternators, the
loosely defined tightening technique defined above seems
quite adequate. Every time I fly, fingers run over the
surface of the belt looking for any signs of frayed edges
and eyes look for signs of overheat-polish on belt sides.
A tug on the belt confirms that it still "cinched down
tight."
I've never had to abort a mission due to discovery of
a questionable alternator belt. Sooo . . . if it were
my airplane, (and given the small cost of a belt compared
to other costs of owning an airplane) I'd continue to
do the crowbar operation for tightening and put a new
belt on the a new battery every year. Both of these
items will be at the bottom of the list for flight
safety and/or maintenance concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use of individual wires from a Mil-Spec |
C-27500 cable
>
>Bob & Listers,
> I was given a large quantity of Mil Spec Aviation wiring from a friend.
> Some of this wire was 22 & 20 gauge C-27500 shielded 2 & 3 wire cable.
> Some of this cable had been stripped of it's outer sheath and shielding.
> This cable has color coded wires inside (red, blue & yellow). Are these
> individual wires OK to use on my RV-8A project? It appears that the
> insulation is slightly thinner on these wires as compared to individual
> Mil 22759/16 wires. I'd like to use this wire, but I want to make sure
> that I am not "cutting corners" in doing so. Opinions please.
>Charlie Kuss
>RV-8A going cross eyed looking at wiring schematics
>SE Florida
Mil-C-27500 is an ASSEMBLY specification for bringing a variety
of materials (wires, shielding and outer jackets) together into
bundles of wire that may be shielded. See:
http://www.awcwire.com/pdf/CT-G4-M27500.pdf
Given the relatively modern incarnation of this specification
it is unlikely that anything you find assembled under it
will be unsuited for use in your airplane. I'd say, "drive
on and let not your heart be troubled."
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: relay diagram for Microair PTT |
>
>--0-1662827501-1065101367=:90978
>
>
>How exactly are the relays wired on the Microair PTTs? The schematic that
>Microair supplies is a little confusing for me.
>
>I don't like always having it hot. When the relays are installed how does
>it decide who gets to transmit if both switches are pushed (whoever is
>first? It becomes hot again so both can talk at the same time?)
>
>Which relays to use (prefereably something small and light and cheap)?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Joa
I'm not familiar with any schematics provided by
Microair that incorporate relays. Can you point me to
an internet resource where I can find the drawing
in question?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dielectric grease recommendations |
>
>I'm new to the forum. I just got some dielectric grease off Ebay--3 tubes (
>big ones) for about $20. I'm curious too can bearing grease work? The idea
>must have started some time ago with an old-timer and I JUST BET that the
>type
>actually isn't all that important. (?????) Geoff
If one is pre-disposed to use guckums to enhance the performance
of a connection and there is a rational justification for
them, probably any grease would add some level of enhancement.
Having said that, I've never seen a magic potion called out
on the installation drawings for any crimped terminal going into
a production airplane. There is a VERY strong reluctance to
use a design where "protective" processes are necessary or
useful. We work hard to design out the need for any such
techniques on the assembly line. Had a conversation just
yesterday about a bofa-fide need to seal exposed terminals
on a vendor supplied product that gets routinely rained on
every time the airplane descends from altitude.
We moved the sealing process from our assembly line to
the manufacturer's facility where it can be inspected and
controlled. There was no way we were going to ask a line
mechanic to do this with repeatable results.
Bottom line is that there may be a valid, engineered
requirement for sprays, goops and goos in the assembly
of your airplane . . . if you're concerned about a particular
situation, let's pick it apart and discover the physics
behind the need.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator speeds and belt tensions. |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator speeds and belt tensions.
> >The engine came with accessories and the "starter ring" had been modified
to
> >utilize a Gates Micro-V belt that drives the alternator.
> >He also made the 3.5" pulley It looks to me the fellow that made the
pulley
> >modifications did a great job and I will go with his idea until testing
and
> >actual use cause a change of course.
>
> that was a LOT of trouble and expense for nearly
> immeasurable benefit . . .
Right you are Bob,
It sure looks cool though! ... Lets just call it a dramatic non event (:-)!
Jim in Kelowna
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: relay diagram for Microair PTT |
--0-1913595621-1065116012=:42806
www.microair.com.au/admin/uploads/ 760_install_&_user_manual_ver_M.pdf
It's hard to read for some reason in this PDF but in my manual (hardcopy with the
radio) it's on about page 20 and is the third "option" called "PTT relays for
single mic operation".
I asked a fellow here at work and he said just use two dpdt relays and wire the
appropriate terminals for NC and NO but I'm wanting specific suggestions for
relays that are small, light, and cheap (solid state maybe?).
I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed before since it's a pain to get the co-pilot
to stop talking whenever you want to make a radio call.
Thanks!
Joa
++++++++++++++++++++++
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
I'm not familiar with any schematics provided by
Microair that incorporate relays. Can you point me to
an internet resource where I can find the drawing
in question?
---------------------------------
--0-1913595621-1065116012=:42806
www.microair.com.au/admin/uploads/ 760_install__user_manual_ver_M.pdf
It's hard to read for some reason in this PDF but in my
manual (hardcopy with the radio) it's on about page 20 and is the third "option"
called "PTT relays for single micoperation".
I asked a fellow here at work and he said just use two
dpdt relays and wire the appropriate terminals for NC and NO but I'm wanting
specific suggestions forrelaysthat are small, light, and cheap (solid
state maybe?).
I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed before since
it's a painto get the co-pilot to stop talking whenever you want to make
a radio call.
Thanks!
Joa
++++++++++++++++++++++
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
wrote:
I'm not familiar with any schematics provided
by
Microair that incorporate relays. Can you point me to
an internet
resource where I can find the drawing
in question?
--0-1913595621-1065116012=:42806--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | GPS-35 / Transponder / Autopilot |
I am going to have the Garmin GPS-35 feeding the heading info to my TruTrak
autopilot and I was wondering if I could also hook this signal up to my
Garmin GTX-327 transponder for the automatic ALT/STBY switch? I would
assume that if I paralleled the two that it may work but I thought that I
would ask.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: relay diagram for Microair PTT |
>
>--0-1913595621-1065116012=:42806
>
>www.microair.com.au/admin/uploads/ 760_install_&_user_manual_ver_M.pdf
>
>
>It's hard to read for some reason in this PDF but in my manual (hardcopy
>with the radio) it's on about page 20 and is the third "option" called
>"PTT relays for single mic operation".
>
>I asked a fellow here at work and he said just use two dpdt relays and
>wire the appropriate terminals for NC and NO but I'm wanting specific
>suggestions for relays that are small, light, and cheap (solid state maybe?).
>
>I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed before since it's a pain to get
>the co-pilot to stop talking whenever you want to make a radio call.
>
>Thanks!
Downloaded the manual . . . UGHhhhh! I offered to do
real wiring diagrams that depicted how to connect
wires together and now I see that the latest manual
is not only worse for diagrams, (nobody should attempt
to hook up the system in the manner depicted) the .pdf file
was generated with some odd-ball font that probably only
prints in part of the world.
Okay, you want opposite mic disable when a PTT button
is pushed. Do you want the copilot to have radio access
too or just intercom? Let's figure out what's needed
and do a real wiring diagram.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: relay diagram for Microair PTT |
--0-1573740537-1065127919=:49265
You mean an intercom that requires a button to be pushed to talk to the co-pilot?
No, I'm fine with the always hot intercom, it's just the always hot PTT (transmit
on the radio) that I don't like.
I would like both the pilot and the co-pilot to have PTT buttons and when one pushes
theirs it cuts the other person off from talking.
If you can't read the diagram I can describe what they are doing (though you obviously
know already Im sure). Both relays have one NC terminal going to each
mic ring terminal and another terminal in parallel with each other going between
the PTT pin (7) and ground. Basically it works so when one PTT is pushed
that relay closes the radio PTT circuit and opens the other persons microphone
connection so that they cant talk.
The Microair circuit looks fine and is pretty elementary(well, it is to me *after*
the EE from work explained it!). Im just wanting your expertise in finding
a couple nice tiny (but inexpensive) relays (preferably something I can solder
in line and just cover with heat shrink) that will work with the currents
we have here.
Would be great though if you could add this feature to your manual since as you
noticed the Microair manual is pretty lacking! Im sure others that arent using
a separate intercom would benefit.
Thanks Bob!
Joa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator speeds and belt tensions. |
Sorry that I can't quote a source, but recently I read that a practical way
to measure drive belt tension on an alternator is to measure the torque
required to turn the alternator pulley until it slips in the pulley with the
belt adjusted where you think it should be. Unfortunately I also don't
recall what the suggested torque reading was...maybe 10 ft. lbs. Anyway, it
should be easy to set by any other method and then measure the "slip"
torque.
Dick Sipp
RV10 N110DV
RV4 N250DS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low voltage warning circuit |
Bob, how could I make the low volt warning threshold adjustable or lower
than 13v?
I need a device to monitor rear batteries under load in a "rec
vehicle" and trigger a remote start at a voltage just above the typical
alarm in a large power inverter.
Steve DiNieri
Rv-6a n221rv
I bashed this out in a hurry but I think the schematic and
BOM have been brought into agreement with present
manufacturing configuration.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
If you've downloaded this recently, your browser may have
the old version in cache . . . hit the reload button after
download to make sure you get the latest. The schematic
and BOM pages will have Rev A 10/2/3 in the title block
on the latest document.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Low voltage warning circuit |
I know this was meant for Bob, however according to his nice schematic, you
could replace R105 with a potentiometer to adjust the trigger voltage.
10.5k ~= 13V
9k ~= 11.5V
8k ~= 10.5V
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven
DiNieri
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low voltage warning circuit
Bob, how could I make the low volt warning threshold adjustable or lower
than 13v?
I need a device to monitor rear batteries under load in a "rec
vehicle" and trigger a remote start at a voltage just above the typical
alarm in a large power inverter.
Steve DiNieri
Rv-6a n221rv
I bashed this out in a hurry but I think the schematic and
BOM have been brought into agreement with present
manufacturing configuration.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
If you've downloaded this recently, your browser may have
the old version in cache . . . hit the reload button after
download to make sure you get the latest. The schematic
and BOM pages will have Rev A 10/2/3 in the title block
on the latest document.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dielectric grease recommendations |
I would also like to mention some of my experiences, although not aircraft
related.
I worked as an automobile mechanic for years, I found that wires will wick
liquid. That is a wire and insulator act just like a pipe for liquid. For
example back in the early 80's GM had a temperature sensor on their engines
that was prone to leak. It would leak slowly so most people never noticed
the leak. However what would happen is the wire for the temperature sensor
would wick the coolant from the sensor into the engine computer. Eventually
enough coolant would get into the computer to short it out.
Another example is GM's 4.3L V-6 in late 90's had a little problem where the
fuel injectors would leak. Well the fuel leaked into the electrical
connector, which at this point in automotive history are weather pack
connectors that are sealed connections. Well the gas then wicks through the
wires right back to the computer. The net result is that the gas destroys
the plastic for the connectors, and in some cases it will actually fill the
computer with an oily substance until the car no longer runs.
Like Eric said, the crimp connection is gas tight. The exposed wires which
are not crimped are not so lucky. Neither is the area between the copper and
the insulation.
Here is something more to think about, all the automobile manufactures are
going to weather pack and sealed electrical connections. Why? If you checked
the price of a weather pack connector lately you will notice they are not
cheap so why is GM and others using them on all their cars?
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M.
Jones
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dielectric grease recommendations
Many people think a dielectric grease might contaminate the surface of a
conductor. Of course this is not true, the grease merely fills in the air
gaps. Although a "proper" crimp may be gas tight, only the conductor under
the crimp is so blessed.
Under a microscope the cable will be seen to possess many small channels in
the pack. In theory, the channels can wick moisture and contaminants
(historically battery acid) into the crimp. Why is this a concern? If all
the metal in the joint were the same, we might still want to exclude water
because it can freeze and force the joint open. However, a more critical
need is to seal the airspaces because of the likelihood that electrolytic
corrosion will occur. The metal crimp itself may be aluminum or brass or
copper, the plating may be nickel or more likely tin, and the wire may be
copper, and ever nickel tin or zinc plated. So electrolytic corrosion can
occur.
Indoors this is rarely an issue, but aircraft see a lot of water in their
lives; it's a good idea to keep it out of the crimp.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
When the Okies moved to California they raised the average IQ of both
states.
---Will Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low voltage warning circuit |
>
>I know this was meant for Bob, however according to his nice schematic, you
>could replace R105 with a potentiometer to adjust the trigger voltage.
>
>10.5k ~= 13V
>9k ~= 11.5V
>8k ~= 10.5V
>
>Trampas
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven
>DiNieri
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low voltage warning circuit
>
>
>
>
>Bob, how could I make the low volt warning threshold adjustable or lower
>than 13v?
> I need a device to monitor rear batteries under load in a "rec
>vehicle" and trigger a remote start at a voltage just above the typical
>alarm in a large power inverter.
>
>Steve DiNieri
>Rv-6a n221rv
You can build this any way you wish. The 1% components and
the LM285 voltage reference are selected such that the
setpoint is predictable to within a few percent. Note that
the 10.5K and 2.49K resistors are the 1% voltage divider
that determine what the setpoint is for the comparator to
see 2.5 volts. If you KNOW what the desired setpoint is,
then it's relatively easy to calculate a new value for
one of the resistors as suggested above. If the setpoint
needs to be adjustable, then making R105 a combination of
say a 5K, 10 or 15 turn potentiometer and a 6.98K, 1%
resistor would give you a wide range of adjustability.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dielectric grease recommendations |
>
>I would also like to mention some of my experiences, although not aircraft
>related.
>
>I worked as an automobile mechanic for years, I found that wires will wick
>liquid. That is a wire and insulator act just like a pipe for liquid. For
>example back in the early 80's GM had a temperature sensor on their engines
>that was prone to leak. It would leak slowly so most people never noticed
>the leak. However what would happen is the wire for the temperature sensor
>would wick the coolant from the sensor into the engine computer. Eventually
>enough coolant would get into the computer to short it out.
>
>Another example is GM's 4.3L V-6 in late 90's had a little problem where the
>fuel injectors would leak. Well the fuel leaked into the electrical
>connector, which at this point in automotive history are weather pack
>connectors that are sealed connections. Well the gas then wicks through the
>wires right back to the computer. The net result is that the gas destroys
>the plastic for the connectors, and in some cases it will actually fill the
>computer with an oily substance until the car no longer runs.
>
>Like Eric said, the crimp connection is gas tight. The exposed wires which
>are not crimped are not so lucky. Neither is the area between the copper and
>the insulation.
>
>Here is something more to think about, all the automobile manufactures are
>going to weather pack and sealed electrical connections. Why? If you checked
>the price of a weather pack connector lately you will notice they are not
>cheap so why is GM and others using them on all their cars?
. . . accurate but anecdotal data. . . . now, how does this
relate to the connectors, wire, sensors, operating conditions
and history of airplanes?
Interesting to think about but at the bottom line, we need to see
if there are obvious, understandable shortfalls in the current
toolbox of materials and techniques that warrant changes for
improvement.
When a need for improvement is identified, let's noodle out
root cause and see if a change of design, materials, installation
or maintenance will deal with the problem in a satisfactory
way . . . I'm not suggesting that there isn't a good place
for using dielectric or any other kind of grease. But I can
give you lots of other, direct to the point experiences
where sealants or protectants were at best marginal
performers and in some cases, made the problem WORSE.
Let's not chase boogy-beasts - the physics of the mater
is always stone-simple, the logic pointing us to the
elegant solution is easily understood.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rrelay diagram for Microair PTT |
>
> >Would be great though if you could add this feature to your manual since
> >as you noticed the Microair manual is pretty lacking! Im sure others that
> >arent using a separate intercom would benefit.
>
> I can do that, but it's two drawings to offer the
> variants cited above.
>
I've added a first-come/first-served PTT relay
circuit to the last page of AEC instructions for
installation of 760VHF . . . this would work with
any other radio too. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trutrak a/p wiring |
>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob:
>
>I bought your manual a couple of months ago. Great stuff. Going with a
>dual alternator / single battery / essential buss system as you show --
>for my RV7A.
>
>Question: I am installing the Trutrak DigiFlight 200 servo (stepper
>motor) in my left wing at the bell crank, and I need to run power to a
>wing tip strobe and position light. The position light power wire doesn't
>bother me, but the strobe does. I don't want problems with the auto pilot
>motor acting crazy due to getting electrical or magnetic pulses. There
>are two sets of 1/4" plastic bushed holes already drilled in the wing ribs
>-- one for the 1/4" OD plastic pitot line and the other for the wire
>bundle. I am nervous about the strobe line being in the same bundle as
>the quantity 7 of 22 AWG wires going to the stepper motor -- even with
>using a grounded / shielded 16 AWG wire for the strobe.
>
>Am I being too paranoid? Tru trak wasn't any help when I called
>them. Should I run the 16 AWG shielded wire as a 12VDC power wire -- to a
>strobe control box mounted next to the wing tip -- verses running a high
>voltage intermittent electrical pulse from a strobe power supply box in
>the fuselage in the same wire bundle? I'm thinking the capacitor aspects
>of the strobe control box should keep the spikes at bay.
I don't belive the Trutrak servos contain any vulnerable
electronics. With a stepper motor, the ADVANTAGES are
that you can build a system with no local electronics
or position feedback potentiometers. I can't think of
any reason your a/p and lighting wires cannot share
the same wire bundle. Wire each system as depicted in
the manufacturer's installation instructions and route
wiring in the most convenient manner.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GPS-35 / Transponder / Autopilot |
>
>
>I am going to have the Garmin GPS-35 feeding the heading info to my TruTrak
>autopilot and I was wondering if I could also hook this signal up to my
>Garmin GTX-327 transponder for the automatic ALT/STBY switch? I would
>assume that if I paralleled the two that it may work but I thought that I
>would ask.
depends on what "signals" are being exchanged. is this RS-232 serial
data? If so, it's likely that one talker (GPS) can drive more than
one listener. The experiment is easy to try . . . if it doesn't work,
you may need a buffer-amplifier but I suspect simple parallel connection
will work.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GPS-35 / Transponder / Autopilot - REDUX |
>
>
>I am going to have the Garmin GPS-35 feeding the heading info to my TruTrak
>autopilot and I was wondering if I could also hook this signal up to my
>Garmin GTX-327 transponder for the automatic ALT/STBY switch? I would
>assume that if I paralleled the two that it may work but I thought that I
>would ask.
depends on what "signals" are being exchanged. is this RS-232 serial
data? If so, it's likely that one talker (GPS) can drive more than
one listener. The experiment is easy to try . . . if it doesn't work,
you may need a buffer-amplifier but I suspect simple parallel connection
will work.
Just as I hit the "send" button, a new question arose . . . HEADING
info from your GPS is almost sure to be serial. Transponders don't
need heading. If they share anything with the transponder, it's
ALTITUDE coming from the encoder as talker and being fed to
BOTH transponder and GPS as listeners. There ARE techniques for
paralleling multiple listeners onto the output of an altitude encoder.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
| Subject: | Antenna cable routing question |
Most convenient routing for my comm antenna cable (RG-400) takes it
within about 3" of my Facet fuel pump- is this a no-no? Anyone have
this condition in use without ill effects? Antenna on fuse bottom.
Would the same apply for the xpndr antenna, also on fuse bottom?
Thanks!
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 4 conductor shielded wire for Dynon |
To all,
For those of you (like me) who have been searching for 4 conductor 22 gauge
shielded wire for your remote mounted Dynon Magnetometer, Wicks aircraft has
special ordered 500 ft. You will need to let them know it is not in the
catalogue.
They expect it in next week. They will add it as a permanent item if there is
a demand for it.
Regards,
Dave Burnham
RV6A (N64FN)
To all,
For those of you (like me) who have been searching for 4 conductor 22 gauge=20shielded
wire for your remote mounted Dynon Magnetometer, Wicks aircraft has special
ordered 500 ft. You will need to let them know it is not in the catalogue.
They expect it in next week. They will add it as a permanent item if there is a
demand for it.
Regards,
Dave Burnham
RV6A (N64FN)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GPS-35 / Transponder / Autopilot - REDUX |
>
> depends on what "signals" are being exchanged. is this RS-232 serial
> data? If so, it's likely that one talker (GPS) can drive more than
> one listener. The experiment is easy to try . . . if it doesn't work,
> you may need a buffer-amplifier but I suspect simple parallel
connection
> will work.
It is RS-232. I'll probably try the parallel and if it doesn't work I can
live without it being hooked to the transponder.
>
> Just as I hit the "send" button, a new question arose . . . HEADING
> info from your GPS is almost sure to be serial. Transponders don't
> need heading. If they share anything with the transponder, it's
> ALTITUDE coming from the encoder as talker and being fed to
> BOTH transponder and GPS as listeners. There ARE techniques for
> paralleling multiple listeners onto the output of an altitude encoder.
>
> Bob . . .
>
The Garmin GTX-327 Transponder has a feature that will switch it from STBY
to ALT when the groundspeed is greater than some value (I think it is
40kts). I already have an encoder and this is just an extra feature that I
would like to try, if it doesn't work then so be it.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: 4 conductor shielded wire for Dynon |
DJB6A(at)cs.com wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: DJB6A(at)cs.com
>
> To all,
>
> For those of you (like me) who have been searching for 4 conductor 22 gauge
> shielded wire for your remote mounted Dynon Magnetometer, Wicks aircraft has
> special ordered 500 ft. You will need to let them know it is not in the
> catalogue.
> They expect it in next week. They will add it as a permanent item if there is
> a demand for it.
>
> Regards,
> Dave Burnham
> RV6A (N64FN)
Be sure you check your local electrical cable suppliers. I found a
nearby outlet that had the four conductor 22g shielded cable for
$0.45/ft.
Sam Buchanan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: diy annunciator panel for gps |
-------------------------------1065211073
Hello.
I am working on installing a Garmin 300xl gps and don't want to pay for (or
need) the "factory" annunciator panel. I am wiring my cdi directly to the
Garmin, so I don't need the multi pole relay to switch the cdi anyway. However,
to be IFR legal, I do need "lights and switches" which I would like to put
together myself.
The schematic shows that most of the annunciator lights and the "approach"
momentary switch are directly tied into the connector; however, the "auto/hold"
lights and the "auto/hold" selection switch are tied together. The
"auto/hold" function switches between automatically sequencing through the waypoints
or
holding on a specific way point.
The "auto/hold" is laid out such that in the first position the dpdt switch
lights the "auto"annunciator and closes the "auto" circuit, and in the other
position lights the "hold" light and closes the "hold" circuit. That is, this
switch position controls those lights. (It seems odd to me that Garmin would
run the other annunciator lights off of the Garmin unit, that is, the lights
indicate the circuit as the Garmin sees it, whereas the "auto/hold" lights are
lit based on the switch position with no regard to how the Garmin is seeing it)
I would like to make a simple annunciator panel using led's and generic mini
switches (one momentary and one dpdt). Has anybody done anything like this, I
would appreciate any help you can give me on this, what leds to use, etc. I
could use the NAT type of switch but that seems bulky and a little pricey and
I have become enamored with using some led's anyway.
Thank you, Skip Simpson
-------------------------------1065211073
tutf-8">
Hello.
I am working on installing a Garmin 300xl gps and don't want to pay for (or need)
the "factory" annunciator panel. I am wiring my cdi directly to the Garmin,
so I don't need the multi pole relay to switch the cdi anyway. However, to be
IFR legal, I do need "lights and switches" which I=20would like to put together
myself.
The schematic shows that most of the annunciator lights and the "approach" momentary
switch are directly tied into the connector; however, the "auto/hold" lights
and the "auto/hold" selection switch are tied together. The "auto/hold" function
switches between automatically sequencing through=20the waypoints or holding
on a specific way point.
The "auto/hold" is laid out such that in the first position the dpdt switch lights
the "auto"annunciator and closes the "auto" circuit, and in the=20other position
lights the "hold" light and closes the "hold" circuit.=20That is, this
switch position controls those lights. (It seems odd to me that Garmin would run
the other annunciator lights off of the Garmin unit, that is, the lights indicate
the circuit as the Garmin sees it, whereas the "auto/hold" lights are lit
based on the switch position with no regard to how the Garmin is seeing it)
I would like to make a simple annunciator panel using led's and generic mini switches
(one momentary and one dpdt). Has anybody done anything like this, I would
appreciate any help you can give me on this, what leds to use, etc. I could
use the NAT type of switch but that seems bulky and a little pricey and I have
become enamored with using some led's anyway.
Thank you, Skip Simpson
-------------------------------1065211073--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diy annunciator panel for gps |
Having just completed an IFR GPS installation in my certified plane I've
also been contemplating what to do with my RV. Since you don't need to
switch the CDI and I'm sure the Garmin has some sort of message indicator
built-in like my GX-60 does, it would seem the only switch-light you need is
for the "auto/hold" (called "obs/hold" on mine). All that switch does is
suspend/resume the sequencing of segments on the approach. I assume it
merely pulls a pin high/low and the light just indicates the position of the
switch. The only feedback likely available is whether the sequence suspends
or resumes as expected. A simple lighted switch should be enough.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
>
>
> -------------------------------1065211073
>
> Hello.
>
> I am working on installing a Garmin 300xl gps and don't want
> to pay for (or
> need) the "factory" annunciator panel. I am wiring my cdi
> directly to the
> Garmin, so I don't need the multi pole relay to switch the
> cdi anyway. However,
> to be IFR legal, I do need "lights and switches" which I
> would like to put
> together myself.
>
> The schematic shows that most of the annunciator lights and
> the "approach"
> momentary switch are directly tied into the connector;
> however, the "auto/hold"
> lights and the "auto/hold" selection switch are tied together. The
> "auto/hold" function switches between automatically
> sequencing through the waypoints or
> holding on a specific way point.
>
> The "auto/hold" is laid out such that in the first position
> the dpdt switch
> lights the "auto"annunciator and closes the "auto" circuit,
> and in the other
> position lights the "hold" light and closes the "hold"
> circuit. That is, this
> switch position controls those lights. (It seems odd to me
> that Garmin would
> run the other annunciator lights off of the Garmin unit, that
> is, the lights
> indicate the circuit as the Garmin sees it, whereas the
> "auto/hold" lights are
> lit based on the switch position with no regard to how the
> Garmin is seeing it)
>
> I would like to make a simple annunciator panel using led's
> and generic mini
> switches (one momentary and one dpdt). Has anybody done
> anything like this, I
> would appreciate any help you can give me on this, what leds
> to use, etc. I
> could use the NAT type of switch but that seems bulky and a
> little pricey and
> I have become enamored with using some led's anyway.
>
> Thank you, Skip Simpson
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: 4 conductor shielded wire for Dynon |
So should it be assumed that the harness to the compass MUST be
shielded? My harness was completed a couple months ago, but the compass
(and radios) are not installed yet. Can I test if this is needed using
the handheld? What would the procedure be?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc(at)hiwaay.net]
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:55 PM
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: 4 conductor shielded
> wire for Dynon
>
>
>
>
>
> DJB6A(at)cs.com wrote:
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: DJB6A(at)cs.com
> >
> > To all,
> >
> > For those of you (like me) who have been searching for 4
> conductor 22
> > gauge shielded wire for your remote mounted Dynon
> Magnetometer, Wicks
> > aircraft has special ordered 500 ft. You will need to let
> them know it
> > is not in the catalogue. They expect it in next week. They
> will add it
> > as a permanent item if there is a demand for it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave Burnham
> > RV6A (N64FN)
>
>
> Be sure you check your local electrical cable suppliers. I
> found a nearby outlet that had the four conductor 22g
> shielded cable for $0.45/ft.
>
> Sam Buchanan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs |
--0-361577249-1065230699=:58092
Bob,
I am using a derivative of Figure Z-11 architecture for an RV6. I want to feed
the electronic ignition from a hot battery bus. The LSE installation instructions
say to use a "pullable" 5 amp breaker. The Aeroelectric connection mentions
use of a fusible link in this application. I would much prefer a fusible
link with an on/off switch over a CB. Do these electronic ignition systems
nuisance trip in general? I thought they were supposed to be incredibly reliable
(That's why I bought it!!).
What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read something
about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If you were
to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say the main bus/fuse
block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only breaker on the panel,
if practical.
I haven't seen listed the expected current draw for the flap motor. Can anybody
help me out here?
Thanks.
Greg Grigson
Honolulu
---------------------------------
--0-361577249-1065230699=:58092
Bob,
I am using a derivative of Figure Z-11 architecture foran RV6.
I want to feed the electronic ignition from a hot battery bus. The
LSE installation instructionssay touse a "pullable" 5 amp breaker.
The Aeroelectric connection mentions use of a fusible link in this application.
I would much prefera fusible link with an on/off switch
over a CB.Dothese electronic ignition systems nuisance trip
in general? I thought they were supposed to be incredibly reliable (That's
why I bought it!!).
What would you suggest for a feedto the flap motor.
I thought I read something about this is one particular animal that can
nuisance trip. If you were to recommend a CB application how would you
power that off say the main bus/fuse block? I would prefer to keep
the ALT FLD CB the only breaker on the panel, if practical.
I haven't seen listed the expected current draw for the flap
motor. Can anybody help me out here?
Thanks.
Greg Grigson
Honolulu
--0-361577249-1065230699=:58092--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Point <jpoint(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List: 4 conductor shielded wire for |
Dynon
I just re-read the recently released, updated version of the
installation manual. It makes no reference to using shielded wire in
any part of the installation. I used 4 wire, 22ga shielded because I
was lucky enough to have some laying around. I would also like to know
if shielded wire is neccesary or even useful in this installation.
Jeff Point
RV-6 panel, wiring
Milwaukee, WI
Larry Bowen wrote:
>
>So should it be assumed that the harness to the compass MUST be
>shielded? My harness was completed a couple months ago, but the compass
>(and radios) are not installed yet. Can I test if this is needed using
>the handheld? What would the procedure be?
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
>Larry(at)BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc(at)hiwaay.net]
>>Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:55 PM
>>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: 4 conductor shielded
>>wire for Dynon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>DJB6A(at)cs.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: DJB6A(at)cs.com
>>>
>>>To all,
>>>
>>>For those of you (like me) who have been searching for 4
>>>
>>>
>>conductor 22
>>
>>
>>>gauge shielded wire for your remote mounted Dynon
>>>
>>>
>>Magnetometer, Wicks
>>
>>
>>>aircraft has special ordered 500 ft. You will need to let
>>>
>>>
>>them know it
>>
>>
>>>is not in the catalogue. They expect it in next week. They
>>>
>>>
>>will add it
>>
>>
>>>as a permanent item if there is a demand for it.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Dave Burnham
>>>RV6A (N64FN)
>>>
>>>
>>Be sure you check your local electrical cable suppliers. I
>>found a nearby outlet that had the four conductor 22g
>>shielded cable for $0.45/ft.
>>
>>Sam Buchanan
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vans gauge lamps |
I'm pretty sure somebody makes an LED that has an
inverted cone on the top of the body. The cone
basically reflects the light out the side of the round
body. I seem to recall coming across it while
searching for something else a while back, might be
Stanley. I'll see if I can track it down.
Mike
__________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vans gauge lamps |
Try:
http://www.allegromicro.com/skncatlg/led/sel6013.pdf
http://www.quickar.com/discrete.php?session=JheTrtx3
These are just a couple of the hits I got with a
Google search for "inverted cone LED".
__________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ian Scott" <jabiru22(at)yahoo.com.au> |
| Subject: | Jabiru J400 Signed off today |
DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 (2.8 points) Date: is 12 to 24 hours after Received: date
Man am I happy.
Test flying as soon as I can.
Ian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rrelay diagram for Microair PTT |
>
>Hi Bob - Just reading through the entire Microair installation
>Instructions and have a couple
>of Q's- on the Mic relay circuit cited below, should not the Mic Hi & Mic
>Lo connections to
>the radio be made to the NO contacts of the relays?
don't know why. you described the operation you wanted and I believe
the circuit I drew will do that. I didn't take time to noodle out
Microair's circuit . . . it probably does work as they intended
but I didn't have time to wade through their schematic and erratic
font displays.
>Could you please clarify the note in section 4.3- looks like a typo...
Yes, fixed it. Thanks for the heads up.
I've uploaded the corrected document.
>Thanks! Not tryin' to be picky, I'm just wiring mine up right now and
>don't want to see no
>smoke!
Not a problem, I understand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Hottle" <jeffh(at)primatech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rrelay diagram for Microair PTT |
Oops, that should be the BLUE wires. I didn't have my morning coffee yet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Waters <pedroagua(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Noise in Headset |
--0-1011535678-1065465776=:8230
Bob,
I'm starting to develop an electrical problem in my RV-4 and I'm hoping you can
help me diagnose it.
I bought the RV-4 (completed) last year. It was built in 1988 and I'm the fourth
owner. It's a solid airplane, but the documentation is thin and from the
logbooks it appears that the electrical stuff (lights, radios) were added piecemeal
over the plnae's first few years, so the electrical system is a bit tangled.
For example, my nav light circuit breaker kept popping. I finally figured
out that the builder / modifier has three 2-amp bulbs (6 amps) going through
a 5-amp CB. So I replaced the 5A CB with a 10A CB. Worked great.
However, on my next flight, I started hearing a whine in my headset. More of
a tone, actually, sounding a lot like Morse from an VOR. Originally intermittent,
and as I returned from a cross country it became almost constant. The whine
/ tone is present with the radios off, strobes off, and alternator off, although
I didn't think to pull the breakers on those circuits. I can hear it
in the background during intercom and radio reception. It disappears briefly after
a radio transmission and then returns after a few seconds. The plane has
a voltmeter, no ammeter, and I immediately noticed that the voltage was increasing
to about 15.5 V and fluctuating there for a while. Then it settled down
to 14.5 V. The problem comes and goes and is not entirely repeatable. Also,
perhaps related and perhaps not, the LORAN stopped working a few weeks back.
I had thought it had just died due to age, and I was buying a GPS anyway, so
I've just left it off since and plan to remove it.
I'm thinking the obvious thought that the alternator's going. Because the plane
has so little documentation, I don't know the specifics of the alternator
at all or how old it is, just that it's been working so far. My A&P found nothing
wrong with it at the last annual 60 hours ago. I'm wondering if the impending
alternator failure is putting out RF that's getting into the headset and
was jamming the LORAN.
Also, I've noticed that with the electrical system fully loaded up, the voltmeter
needle also starts rapidly fluctuating at 14.5-15.5V. I see this when I
turn on the landing light. Due to the lack of documentation I have no idea how
many total amps are actually flowing through the system, so I'm wondering if
turning on the landing lights actually puts the plane's total current draw above
the rated output of the alternator. Is fluctuating system voltage a sign
of that?
If you could offer any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate it.
Best,
Pete Waters
(registered for your class in Watsonville)
---------------------------------
--0-1011535678-1065465776=:8230
Bob,
I'm starting to develop an electrical problem in my RV-4 and I'm hoping
you can help me diagnose it.
I bought the RV-4 (completed) last year. It was built in 1988
and I'm the fourth owner. It's a solid airplane, but the documentation is thin
and from the logbooks it appears that the electrical stuff (lights, radios)
were added piecemeal over the plnae's first few years, so the electrical system
is a bit tangled. For example, my nav light circuit breaker kept popping.
I finally figured out that the builder / modifier has three 2-amp bulbs
(6 amps) going through a 5-amp CB. So I replaced the 5A CB with a 10A
CB. Worked great.
However, on my next flight, I started hearing a whine in my headset.
More of a tone, actually, sounding a lot like Morse from an VOR.
Originally intermittent, and as I returned from a cross country it became almost
constant. The whine / tone is present with the radios off, strobes off,
and alternator off, although I didn't think to pull the breakers on those
circuits. I can hear it in the background during intercom and radio reception.It
disappears briefly after a radio transmission and then returns
after a few seconds. The plane has a voltmeter, no ammeter, and I immediately
noticed that the voltage was increasing to about 15.5 V and fluctuating
there for a while. Then it settled down to 14.5 V. The problem comes
and goes and is not entirely repeatable. Also, perhaps related and perhaps
not, the LORAN stopped working a few weeks back. I had thought it
had just died due to age, and I was buying a GPS anyw
ay, so
I've just left it off since and plan to remove it.
I'm thinking the obvious thought that the alternator's going.
Because the plane has so little documentation, I don't know the specifics of
the alternator at all or how old it is, just that it's been working so far.
My AP found nothing wrong with it at the last annual 60 hours ago.
I'm wondering if the impending alternator failure is putting out RF that's
getting into the headset and was jamming the LORAN.
Also, I've noticed that with the electrical system fully loaded up,
the voltmeter needle also starts rapidly fluctuating at 14.5-15.5V.I
see this when I turn on the landing light. Due to the lack of documentation
I have no idea how many total amps are actually flowing through the system,so
I'm wondering if turning on the landing lights actually putsthe
plane's total current draw above the rated output of the alternator.
Is fluctuating system voltage a sign of that?
If you could offer any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate it.
Best,
Pete Waters
(registered for your class in Watsonville)
--0-1011535678-1065465776=:8230--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Good" <chrisjgood(at)lycos.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs |
Greg,
As far as the flap motor goes, I've got a note that it takes 5 amps, although I
don't remember where I found that. In any case, I used 16 awg wire & a 10 amp
fuse. It's operated perfectly for 600 hrs with no nuisance fuse trips.
Regards,
Chris Good, http://rv.supermatrix.com
West Bend, WI
RV-6A 86CG, flying 600 hrs
BTW, I'm expecting to be in Honolulu for Thanksgiving. Maybe I'll get a chance
to see your project.
--
--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 18:24:59
From: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2(at)yahoo.com>
>
>--0-361577249-1065230699=:58092
>
>Bob,
> I am using a derivative of Figure Z-11 architecture for an RV6. I want to feed
the electronic ignition from a hot battery bus. The LSE installation instructions
say to use a "pullable" 5 amp breaker. The Aeroelectric connection mentions
use of a fusible link in this application. I would much prefer a fusible
link with an on/off switch over a CB. Do these electronic ignition systems
nuisance trip in general? I thought they were supposed to be incredibly reliable
(That's why I bought it!!).
>
> What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read something
about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If you were
to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say the main bus/fuse
block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only breaker on the panel,
if practical.
>
> I haven't seen listed the expected current draw for the flap motor. Can anybody
help me out here?
>
>Thanks.
>Greg Grigson
>Honolulu
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
The rule of thumb seems to be to switch the positive line rather than
the negative/ground for a typical circut. I have the need to break this
rule and wire my fuel pump positve with no switch and switch the ground
to turn it on/off. Is this a huge no-no? Bad style? No big deal? Why
does it matter?
Thanks,
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switched gnd? |
>
>The rule of thumb seems to be to switch the positive line rather than
>the negative/ground for a typical circut. I have the need to break this
>rule and wire my fuel pump positve with no switch and switch the ground
>to turn it on/off. Is this a huge no-no? Bad style? No big deal? Why
>does it matter?
>
>Thanks,
It doesn't. Control circuitry aboard aircraft are done
both ways. I'm unaware of any such rule-of-thumb . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
> The rule of thumb seems to be to switch the positive line rather than
> the negative/ground for a typical circut. I have the need to break this
> rule and wire my fuel pump positve with no switch and switch the ground
> to turn it on/off. Is this a huge no-no? Bad style? No big deal? Why
> does it matter?
This sounds like more of an issue in high voltage AC electrical wiring such as
you have in your home. There you want to switch the "hot" side so that when the
switch is off, there is mains voltage reaching the device/circuit. Otherwise,
if the device (say, a lamp) was on, the white (neutral/return) wire would be
hot, which can create a dangerous situation for anybody mucking with the wires.
It's a safety issue, with lots of ramifications for both electricians and product
designers.
But for a 12V circuit? My car has several circuits wired this way. I can't see
why it would be a problem in a plane. Maybe Bob has some guidance here?
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lyle Peterson" <lyleap(at)access4less.net> |
I for one would want to switch the positive side of the circuit. If the
device being controlled by the switch failed in a shorted mode, there
would still be positive voltage to it. The switch would not save the
device as it is grounded to the frame of the vehicle, airplane. In a
composite airframe this may not be a concern. In a metal airplane I
would definitely not switch the negative side of the circuit.
My milli pennies worth.
Gee, opinions are depreciating rather rapidly, aren't they?
Lyle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robinson, Chad
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
-->
> The rule of thumb seems to be to switch the positive line rather than
> the negative/ground for a typical circut. I have the need to break
> this rule and wire my fuel pump positve with no switch and switch the
> ground to turn it on/off. Is this a huge no-no? Bad style? No big
> deal? Why does it matter?
This sounds like more of an issue in high voltage AC electrical wiring
such as you have in your home. There you want to switch the "hot" side
so that when the switch is off, there is mains voltage reaching the
device/circuit. Otherwise, if the device (say, a lamp) was on, the white
(neutral/return) wire would be hot, which can create a dangerous
situation for anybody mucking with the wires. It's a safety issue, with
lots of ramifications for both electricians and product designers.
But for a 12V circuit? My car has several circuits wired this way. I
can't see why it would be a problem in a plane. Maybe Bob has some
guidance here?
Regards,
Chad
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sigma Eta Aero <sigmatero(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Relay diagram for Microair PTT |
--0-1904218001-1065499228=:60162
Good stuff, thanks Bob. Now if you'll hold my hand just a minute longer and suggest
the "perfect" DigiKey diodes to go with both the OV disconnect relay and
these relays I would be grateful. The pic on your site shows a 1N4005 but there
are about a dozen of these that show up in the DigiKey website.
Also, where are the red and white connectors that come with the B&C OV module kit
best used?
Joa
---------------------------------
--0-1904218001-1065499228=:60162
Good stuff, thanks Bob. Now if you'll hold my hand just a minute longer
and suggest the "perfect" DigiKey diodes to go with both the OV disconnect
relay and these relays I would be grateful. The pic on your site shows
a 1N4005 but there are about a dozen of these that show up in the DigiKey website.
Also, where are the red and white connectors that come with the BC OV
module kit best used?
Joa
--0-1904218001-1065499228=:60162--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery Contactor vibration problem |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com> |
I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project. For
reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet on
the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because my
rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up, and
it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
(they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be electrically
interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
Thanks
Vince Ackerman
N777FB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
That's good news. I guess I just developed that impression during my
miniscule electrical experience. I know some light-weight circuits
switch the ground, i.e. for enunciator lights, etc -- but I thought
bigger 'appliances' had to have the + switched. Glad to hear that's not
always the case. Thanks.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 8:29 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
>
>
> -->
>
> >-->
> >
> >The rule of thumb seems to be to switch the positive line
> rather than
> >the negative/ground for a typical circut. I have the need to break
> >this rule and wire my fuel pump positve with no switch and
> switch the
> >ground to turn it on/off. Is this a huge no-no? Bad style? No big
> >deal? Why does it matter?
> >
> >Thanks,
>
> It doesn't. Control circuitry aboard aircraft are done
> both ways. I'm unaware of any such rule-of-thumb . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
> --------------------------------------------
> ( Knowing about a thing is different than )
> ( understanding it. One can know a lot )
> ( and still understand nothing. )
> ( C.F. Kettering )
> --------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
The fuse/breaker would provide protection. Would it not?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lyle Peterson [mailto:lyleap(at)access4less.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:01 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
>
>
> -->
>
> I for one would want to switch the positive side of the
> circuit. If the device being controlled by the switch failed
> in a shorted mode, there would still be positive voltage to
> it. The switch would not save the device as it is grounded
> to the frame of the vehicle, airplane. In a composite
> airframe this may not be a concern. In a metal airplane I
> would definitely not switch the negative side of the circuit.
>
> My milli pennies worth.
>
> Gee, opinions are depreciating rather rapidly, aren't they?
>
> Lyle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Robinson, Chad
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
>
>
> -->
>
> > The rule of thumb seems to be to switch the positive line
> rather than
> > the negative/ground for a typical circut. I have the need to break
> > this rule and wire my fuel pump positve with no switch and
> switch the
> > ground to turn it on/off. Is this a huge no-no? Bad
> style? No big
> > deal? Why does it matter?
>
> This sounds like more of an issue in high voltage AC
> electrical wiring such as you have in your home. There you
> want to switch the "hot" side so that when the switch is off,
> there is mains voltage reaching the device/circuit.
> Otherwise, if the device (say, a lamp) was on, the white
> (neutral/return) wire would be hot, which can create a
> dangerous situation for anybody mucking with the wires. It's
> a safety issue, with lots of ramifications for both
> electricians and product designers.
>
> But for a 12V circuit? My car has several circuits wired this
> way. I can't see why it would be a problem in a plane. Maybe
> Bob has some guidance here?
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
>
> ==
> direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> ==
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> ==
> ==
>
>
> ============
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> ============
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> ============
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>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lyle Peterson" <lyleap(at)access4less.net> |
Depends on which side is fused or breakered (is that a word?) If the
postive side is fused it would protect it. If the problem is one of
wiring the switch only to the negative side for some reason, I am
guessing that the same reasons apply to the fuse or breaker. That means
the fuse would be in the negative side and little or no protection.
Another 2 mils worth of opinion.
Lyle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Bowen
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
-->
The fuse/breaker would provide protection. Would it not?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
> > Larry Bowen wrote:
> >
> > The fuse/breaker would provide protection. Would it not?
>
> Lyle Peterson wrote:
>
> Depends on which side is fused or breakered (is that a word?) If the
> postive side is fused it would protect it. If the problem is one of
> wiring the switch only to the negative side for some reason, I am
> guessing that the same reasons apply to the fuse or breaker.
> That means the fuse would be in the negative side and little or no
> protection.
On the other hand, one would probably not be wiring a negative-switched device
into one's standard fuse panel, that being a 12V source itself. So Larry, unless
you're looking to create a separate fuse panel of all NEGATIVE switched devices,
I assumed you meant that you'd have an inline fuse or breaker upstream of
this negative-switched device (that is, on the supply side). Is this the case?
Because Lyle is right - wherever you put the switch, the FUSE should be on
the supply side no matter what. And if your breaker IS your switch, then this
is not a great idea.
However, I'd like to restate my point that switch/breaker location is a bigger
issue in systems where the voltage is not so fun to touch - a human can die from
mains voltage without ever tripping a standard 20A breaker. Therefore, you
always want a way to cut off the supply side as close to the source as possible,
and so the breaker is ALWAYS on the hot side.
My $0.00002c. =)
Regards,
Chad
PS - None of my dictionaries (all relatively new, FWIW) contain "breakered" as
an acceptable form of "breaker". However, LOTS of electrical supply and products
companies like to use it, so I say what the heck, if the people you're talking
to understand what you mean...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | 1N4005 Selection |
Hi Joa,
I'll take a shot at this one. I'm an electronics beginner and this list
has helped a bunch - somone please correct me if I'm wrong.
First - take a look at the packaging. DO-41 is the in-line type (see
this site for a photo
(http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/Jameco/searchResult.
d2w/report?sort=BRR&search=1N4005)). DO-214 is a surface mount item,
you don't want this unless installing on a PCB or ???
Second - take a look at "Min Qty". Not sure about you but I can pretty
easily eliminate the items that have a minimum quantity of more than
100. That gets you down to about four items.
That's about all the further I can help. I notice that "Glass
Passivated" is much more expensive than "Silicon" (49 cents versus 4
cents).
I don't fully understand your last question. I assume you are talking
about the OV crowbar. The instructions are at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/9003_ins.pdf but you probably
already have them.
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 455 Hrs. TT - 3.5 Hrs Engine
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/default.asp?id=96
> -->
>
> --0-1904218001-1065499228=:60162
>
> Good stuff, thanks Bob. Now if you'll hold my hand just a
> minute longer and suggest the "perfect" DigiKey diodes to go
> with both the OV disconnect relay and these relays I would be
> grateful. The pic on your site shows a 1N4005 but there are
> about a dozen of these that show up in the DigiKey website.
>
> Also, where are the red and white connectors that come with
> the B&C OV module kit best used?
>
> Joa
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
Hopefully it's not that complicated. This is what I want to do.
Main fuse block -- 5 amp fuse -- fuel pump -- terminal strip -- infinity
grip -- ground
=AND
Main fuse block -- 2 amp fuse -- dimmer board -- 3 enun. LEDs --
terminal strip -- infinity grip -- ground
When the switch is closed on the grip, it provides ground to both the
pump and it's one enun light. I couldn't get this fuctionality
switching the positive unless I had one dimmer board per enun light,
which is not a reasonable option.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robinson, Chad [mailto:crobinson(at)rfgonline.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:00 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
>
>
> -->
>
> > > Larry Bowen wrote:
> > >
> > > The fuse/breaker would provide protection. Would it not?
> >
> > Lyle Peterson wrote:
> >
> > Depends on which side is fused or breakered (is that a
> word?) If the
> > postive side is fused it would protect it. If the problem
> is one of
> > wiring the switch only to the negative side for some reason, I am
> > guessing that the same reasons apply to the fuse or breaker.
> > That means the fuse would be in the negative side and little or no
> > protection.
>
> On the other hand, one would probably not be wiring a
> negative-switched device into one's standard fuse panel, that
> being a 12V source itself. So Larry, unless you're looking to
> create a separate fuse panel of all NEGATIVE switched
> devices, I assumed you meant that you'd have an inline fuse
> or breaker upstream of this negative-switched device (that
> is, on the supply side). Is this the case? Because Lyle is
> right - wherever you put the switch, the FUSE should be on
> the supply side no matter what. And if your breaker IS your
> switch, then this is not a great idea.
>
> However, I'd like to restate my point that switch/breaker
> location is a bigger issue in systems where the voltage is
> not so fun to touch - a human can die from mains voltage
> without ever tripping a standard 20A breaker. Therefore, you
> always want a way to cut off the supply side as close to the
> source as possible, and so the breaker is ALWAYS on the hot side.
>
> My $0.00002c. =)
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
> PS - None of my dictionaries (all relatively new, FWIW)
> contain "breakered" as an acceptable form of "breaker".
> However, LOTS of electrical supply and products companies
> like to use it, so I say what the heck, if the people you're
> talking to understand what you mean...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
>
>I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
>terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project. For
>reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
>electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet on
>the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
>momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
>to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because my
>rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up, and
>it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
>it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
>
>You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
>(they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be electrically
>interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
>perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
terminal to small terminal).
If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
me your questionable device. There's something seriously
wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relay diagram for Microair PTT |
>
>--0-1904218001-1065499228=:60162
>
>Good stuff, thanks Bob. Now if you'll hold my hand just a minute longer
>and suggest the "perfect" DigiKey diodes to go with both the OV disconnect
>relay and these relays I would be grateful. The pic on your site shows a
>1N4005 but there are about a dozen of these that show up in the DigiKey
>website.
Some of those will be surface mount parts. You want
leaded parts. ANY leaded part will do . . .
Go to Radio Shack. Any diode of reasonable size (meaning
physical dimensions) will work. This is NOT in the least
critical electrically. If you look at the S701 series
contactors from B*C
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s701-2.jpg
these are a rather "fat" looking diode. These are 3A
devices (1N540x series devices) and Radio Shack has several
electrical sizes in a blister pak . . . 2 for about $1.
I chose these for this application because they're
mechanically robust. Where you need a smaller one
like for a S704 relay
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s701-2.jpg
then the smaller, glass or plastic, leaded devices
are called for. ANY 1N400x diode you can find on the
rack at the Shack is fine. It think they stock several
electrical sizes of these as well.
>Also, where are the red and white connectors that come with the B&C OV
>module kit best used?
Not sure. Did they come packaged with the OV module
or are they part of the SD-8 overall installation kit.
I think they ship some connectors that are used for
alternator wiring of the SD-8. If their use is not
implicit in the instructions for the kit, a phone
call to 316-283-8000 or e-mail (mailto:todd(at)bandc.biz)
will clear this up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard May <ram45(at)comporium.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
>
>I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
>terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project. For
>reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
>electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet on
>the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
>momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
>to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because my
>rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up, and
>it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
>it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
>
>You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
>(they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be electrically
>interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
>perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
>
>Thanks
>Vince Ackerman
>N777FB
We had similar type of problem in the Glasairs. It was discovered that
during high g loads, the contactors would separate. The fix was mounting
them horizontally.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
This one has been all over the map. Let's consider a
few important points:
(1) The techniques and rational for wiring houses in a
particular way has very weak association with the wiring
for vehicles including airplanes.
(2) Circuit protection always goes as close to the source
as practical . . . busses and batteries are the source.
It matters not what is being powered or how it is controlled,
location of circuit protection is the same.
(3) To turn something ON or OFF one only need to get in
series with the flow of current around the path from bus
to ground. In many complex control systems for airplanes,
there might be two or more switches, relays, solid state
controls or contactors, any ONE of which is capable of
turning the system OFF and all must be closed for the system
to be ON. It absolutely matters not where the switch is
located around the loop to achieve the desired function.
(3) There are some secondary considerations from a failure
modes perspective . . . a switch to ground control line
COULD fault to ground and leave a system permanently ON.
But given that 99% of system failures are due to
wear-out or component failure, 0.9% of failures are
due to wiring coming unhooked, and 0.1% of
failures are due to ground faults of wire runs. Of this
tiny fraction of ground faults, the majority will probably
take out the supply fuse as opposed to causing any system
to stick in the ON condition.
Unless you enjoy getting wrapped around the axles of
Part 25 or air transport category fault trees and
can get excited about chasing a bureaucratic nirvana
of less than one failure per million flight hours,
such considerations are not worth your time and effort.
The fault to ground condition is handled like any other
consideration in your failure tolerant system analysis:
Is it pre-flight detectable? How do I now it's failed
in flight? What are the consequences of not being able
to regain control if it does fail in flight? If the system
is stuck on, what's necessary for comfortable termination
of flight? How do I deal with it in flight in terms of
(1) ignore it, (2) shut down the main bus and go to
e-bus ops, (3) use the backup system, etc. etc.
Bottom line is you can wire your systems up pretty much
any way that improves on convenience or reduces cost
or parts count and satisfies your FMEA.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com> |
At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
address. I will happily pay for it.
No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
quite a market for something like that.
Thanks.
Vince Ackerman
17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
Portland, OR 97231
503-621-0511
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
>> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
>> For
>> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
>> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet on
>> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
>> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
>> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because my
>> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
>> and
>> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
>> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
>>
>> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
>> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
>> electrically
>> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
>> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
>
>
> What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
> severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
> energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
> the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
> terminal to small terminal).
>
> If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
> contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
> you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
> me your questionable device. There's something seriously
> wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> CBs |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and |
CBs
CBs
>
>--0-361577249-1065230699=:58092
>
>Bob,
> I am using a derivative of Figure Z-11 architecture for an RV6. I want
> to feed the electronic ignition from a hot battery bus. The LSE
> installation instructions say to use a "pullable" 5 amp breaker. The
> Aeroelectric connection mentions use of a fusible link in this
> application. I would much prefer a fusible link with an on/off switch
> over a CB. Do these electronic ignition systems nuisance trip in
> general? I thought they were supposed to be incredibly reliable (That's
> why I bought it!!).
If you have a battery bus with more than one feed, then
a fuseblock can be used to distribute power to the e-bus,
Hobbs, clock, -AND- electronic ignition. If you like, you
can feed the ignition directly from the battery contactor
using fusible link. Electronic ignitions are reliable,
they don't have an propensity for nuisance tripping, and
power feedline protection technique is entirely optional.
> What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read
> something about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If
> you were to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say
> the main bus/fuse block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only
> breaker on the panel, if practical.
Do an FEMA. How what are the consequences of this
system shutting down at ANY phase of flight? If your
airplane will climb with flaps fully extended, then
there are no worries about getting boxed in by an
inop flap system.
Systems will nuisance trip the circuit protection for one
reason only and it's NOT because they are a flap system,
ignition system or any other system. When you read
about "nuisance trips" you KNOW that the system
was poorly designed. It simply means that the feedwires
and fuse/breaker were not properly sized for the task.
Wire it up with 16AWG and start out with a 5A fuse.
If you trip it, go to 7A . . . it's almost a sure
bet that 10A will stay put . . . or just start out
with 10A. Lots of designers do that . . .make it fat
and don't worry about it. I'd rather have a more
considered reason for final fuse selection.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: bad link to picture |
>
> Some of those will be surface mount parts. You want
> leaded parts. ANY leaded part will do . . .
>
> Go to Radio Shack. Any diode of reasonable size (meaning
> physical dimensions) will work. This is NOT in the least
> critical electrically. If you look at the S701 series
> contactors from B*C
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s701-2.jpg
>
> these are a rather "fat" looking diode. These are 3A
> devices (1N540x series devices) and Radio Shack has several
> electrical sizes in a blister pak . . . 2 for about $1.
>
> I chose these for this application because they're
> mechanically robust. Where you need a smaller one
> like for a S704 relay
Here's the right one . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/s704inst.jpg
> then the smaller, glass or plastic, leaded devices
> are called for. ANY 1N400x diode you can find on the
> rack at the Shack is fine. It think they stock several
> electrical sizes of these as well.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com> |
At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
address. I will happily pay for it.
No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
quite a market for something like that.
Thanks.
Vince Ackerman
17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
Portland, OR 97231
503-621-0511
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
>> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
>> For
>> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
>> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet on
>> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
>> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
>> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because my
>> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
>> and
>> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
>> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
>>
>> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
>> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
>> electrically
>> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
>> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
>
>
> What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
> severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
> energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
> the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
> terminal to small terminal).
>
> If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
> contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
> you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
> me your questionable device. There's something seriously
> wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com> |
BTW, to where do you want me to send it??
On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 08:21 AM, Vince Ackerman wrote:
>
> At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
> which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
> across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
> you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
> address. I will happily pay for it.
>
> No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
> quite a market for something like that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Vince Ackerman
> 17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
> Portland, OR 97231
>
> 503-621-0511
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
>>> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
>>> For
>>> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
>>> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet
>>> on
>>> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
>>> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
>>> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because
>>> my
>>> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
>>> and
>>> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
>>> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
>>>
>>> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
>>> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
>>> electrically
>>> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
>>> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
>>
>>
>> What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
>> severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
>> energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
>> the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
>> terminal to small terminal).
>>
>> If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
>> contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
>> you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
>> me your questionable device. There's something seriously
>> wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>> _-
>> ======================================================================
>>
>>
>> _-
>> ======================================================================
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
>> _-
>> ======================================================================
>>
>>
>> _-
>> ======================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Strain relieving 15 pin D-sub connectors |
| From: | "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com> |
What ideas have you guys come up with to strain relieve the back sides of D-sub
connectors? I saw Bob's article that uses Shoe Goo (great stuff) for a soldered
D-sub. This is not soldered and since it's the stick grip connector, I do
not want to pot the back side with anything, in case I want to swap pins in the
future. My idea so far is to take 1.5" diameter shrink tubing, and pull it
over the back side of the connector metal. Shrink that side only. Then shrink
the other side but not the middle, that way, I"ll get a gentle tapering sleeve.
I doubt that the 1.5" tubing will shrink to the 3/8 " to tighten up on the
wire bundle, so I"ll tie that end with lacing cord. Anyone else have any ideas?
Arthur Treff
RV-8 Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Good reference on Transient Suppression |
http://littelfuse.com/PDFs/AppNotes/an9312.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: need info on Mitchell CD-1000 cdi |
-------------------------------1065563129
Hello, can anyone give me the wiring diagram or any other information on a
"Mitchell Aircraft Instruments" CD-1000 curse deviation indicator, or a way to
contact the company, or any other help in finding out information about this
instrument. My internet search was not successful. thank you, skip simpson
-------------------------------1065563129
tutf-8">
Hello, can anyone give me the wiring diagram or any other information on=20a "Mitchell
Aircraft Instruments" CD-1000 curse deviation indicator, or a way to contact
the company, or any other help in finding out information about this instrument.My
internet search was not successful. thank you, skip simpson
-------------------------------1065563129--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leonard Garceau" <lhgcpg(at)westriv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator and electronic ignition |
I'm doing runups on my conversion with a 55 amp nippondenso alternator and
have a intermitten problem. Sometimes as the volt meter reads about 13.8
volts the needle moves back and forth between lets say 13.8 and 13.9 and
this causes my engine to miss fire. In other words the electronic ignition
doesn't like it. This only happens (or seems so) when the battery is fully
charged. If I let the battery run down a bit, it seems to charge right up to
14.1 volts and stablize. Any Ideas?
I also have a miss fire a 4000 rpm. Does anyone know about the range of
spark plugs to run? Colder? By how much?
My engine is a nissan VQ maxima V-6. It is running great so far. I'm up to
4500 rpm static.
Leonard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Ackerman" <vack(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor vibration problem
>
> BTW, to where do you want me to send it??
>
> On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 08:21 AM, Vince Ackerman wrote:
>
> >
> > At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
> > which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
> > across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
> > you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
> > address. I will happily pay for it.
> >
> > No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
> > quite a market for something like that.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Vince Ackerman
> > 17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
> > Portland, OR 97231
> >
> > 503-621-0511
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
> >>> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
> >>> For
> >>> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
> >>> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet
> >>> on
> >>> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
> >>> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
> >>> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because
> >>> my
> >>> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
> >>> and
> >>> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
> >>> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
> >>>
> >>> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
> >>> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
> >>> electrically
> >>> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
> >>> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
> >>
> >>
> >> What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
> >> severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
> >> energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
> >> the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
> >> terminal to small terminal).
> >>
> >> If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
> >> contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
> >> you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
> >> me your questionable device. There's something seriously
> >> wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
> >>
> >> Bob . . .
> >>
> >>
> >> _-
> >> ======================================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> _-
> >> ======================================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> >> _-
> >> ======================================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> _-
> >> ======================================================================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strain relieving 15 pin D-sub connectors |
>
>
>
>What ideas have you guys come up with to strain relieve the back sides of
>D-sub connectors? I saw Bob's article that uses Shoe Goo (great stuff)
>for a soldered D-sub. This is not soldered and since it's the stick grip
>connector, I do not want to pot the back side with anything, in case I
>want to swap pins in the future. My idea so far is to take 1.5" diameter
>shrink tubing, and pull it over the back side of the connector metal.
>Shrink that side only. Then shrink the other side but not the middle,
>that way, I"ll get a gentle tapering sleeve. I doubt that the 1.5" tubing
>will shrink to the 3/8 " to tighten up on the wire bundle, so I"ll tie
>that end with lacing cord. Anyone else have any ideas?
How about an ordinary 15-pin backshell?
See listing in upper right corner of page at:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/pdf/T033/0144-0145.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Good reference on Transient Suppression |
>
>
>http://littelfuse.com/PDFs/AppNotes/an9312.pdf
This document is typical of a whole family of
texts published by folk who make (and therefore
want to sell) various forms of protective devices.
As sources of engineering guidance for system
analysis, they're fine but the neophyte builder
needs to understand that (1) while the stresses
cited "can", "may" and under some conditions "will"
exist, they don't ALL exist in a vehicular DC
power system and (2) there are design considerations
in addition to or as alternatives to a generous
sprinkling of "spike" suppressors about the
system (like DO-160 certification).
I'm still waiting for any aviation systems designer
to describe a single repeatable experiment that
I can use to justify anything more than catch diodes
on contactor coils and crowbar ov modules on
alternators (which have been standard for years).
BTW, there is a GENEROUS sprinkling of spike
suppressors on the Premier I and will undoubtedly
be many more on Hawker Horizon . . . composite
aircraft supposedly buttressed for LIGHTNING
strike. So if someone points out the fact that
a certified airframe is so equipped, know that
as long as it's your enthusiastic intent to
stay out of thunderstorms, then your electrical
system is going to be fine without them.
This is not to discourage anyone from taking
advantage of the knowledge these documents
offer . . . but also please be aware that most of
the beasts and gremlins described therein
are no big deal for airplane folks.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Starter/mag switch |
| From: | "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com> |
Hi Bob and list,
I'm using two switches for my ignition, one for the left mag and starter
(double pole) and an other switch for the right electronic ignition.
I'm upgrading to an all electric panel with a Grand Raids Tech. EIS and
doing away with the tach cable.
What do you think about the idea of using a triple pole switch for the
left mag and starter and add a circuit to switch to the EI tach info
when the mag is off? The EI tach info will have twice the rpm, but I
don't see that as an issue. Is there a better way?
Thanks,
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator and electronic ignition |
<... charge right up to 14.1 volts and stabilize ...>
Charging voltage with a fully charged battery is 14.7 volts. 14.1 would indicate
to me that the alternator is loaded pretty much. Or perhaps enough line losses
to
make 14.7 at the alternator look like 14.1 to the voltmeter. 13.8 indicates the
alternator is loaded so hell wouldn't have it. Have you checked the volts and
amps
at the B-post of your alternator?
Seems like something's missing here .... Jim S.
Leonard Garceau wrote:
>
> I'm doing runups on my conversion with a 55 amp nippondenso alternator and
> have a intermitten problem. Sometimes as the volt meter reads about 13.8
> volts the needle moves back and forth between lets say 13.8 and 13.9 and
> this causes my engine to miss fire. In other words the electronic ignition
> doesn't like it. This only happens (or seems so) when the battery is fully
> charged. If I let the battery run down a bit, it seems to charge right up to
> 14.1 volts and stablize. Any Ideas?
>
> I also have a miss fire a 4000 rpm. Does anyone know about the range of
> spark plugs to run? Colder? By how much?
>
> My engine is a nissan VQ maxima V-6. It is running great so far. I'm up to
> 4500 rpm static.
>
> Leonard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vince Ackerman" <vack(at)mac.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor vibration problem
>
> >
> > BTW, to where do you want me to send it??
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 08:21 AM, Vince Ackerman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
> > > which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
> > > across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
> > > you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
> > > address. I will happily pay for it.
> > >
> > > No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
> > > quite a market for something like that.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Vince Ackerman
> > > 17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
> > > Portland, OR 97231
> > >
> > > 503-621-0511
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
> > >>> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
> > >>> For
> > >>> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
> > >>> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet
> > >>> on
> > >>> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
> > >>> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
> > >>> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because
> > >>> my
> > >>> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
> > >>> and
> > >>> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
> > >>> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
> > >>> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
> > >>> electrically
> > >>> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
> > >>> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
> > >> severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
> > >> energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
> > >> the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
> > >> terminal to small terminal).
> > >>
> > >> If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
> > >> contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
> > >> you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
> > >> me your questionable device. There's something seriously
> > >> wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
> > >>
> > >> Bob . . .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _-
> > >> ======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _-
> > >> ======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> > >> _-
> > >> ======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _-
> > >> ======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > _-
> > > =======================================================================
> > >
> > > _-
> > > =======================================================================
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> > > _-
> > > =======================================================================
> > >
> > > _-
> > > =======================================================================
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--
Jim Sower
Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Crowbar overvoltage protector ... |
I've heard that Bob sells these "crowbar overvoltage protectors". I need one pretty
bad.
I've been to the web site but can't find one there. Did I hear wrong? How do
I protect from
alternator runaway?
Thanks,
Jim Sower
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Electronic tacho & mag check |
I was thinking I would use an electronic tacho -- something like a UMA tacho
/ hour meter that hooks up to a magneto. Thing is, is it still possible to
do a mag check from the tacho? I'm assuming that switching to the other mag
during a mag check would make the tacho go to zero, and thus it wouldn't be
any use for seeing the mag drop.
I can't see that this would be the case though -- it seems too obvious, and
presumably UMA would have thought of a solution.
Does anyone have any experience of thise type of tach? Many thanks in
anticipation.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator and electronic ignition |
Leonard,
First verify that the miss is caused by the alternator by disabling the
alternator and running just off the battery.
Then if the problem does appear to be the alternator, check alternator
output and voltage as mentioned below. I will bet that the alternator has a
bad diode and thus is not outputting full power (current and voltage). Also
with a bad diode the alternator will output a lot of "AC ripple" which is
basically noise. This noise can be misread by the electronic ignition as a
signal to fire the coil, which would cause a miss.
The best way to check AC ripple is with a scope, however a multimeter will
work as well. Turn the meter to AC voltage and connect positive lead to B+
on alternator, and negative to alternator body. You should read less than
400mV, a rough number, of AC voltage. If the voltage is high, most likely
you have a bad diode.
Also check your grounds again, a bad engine ground could also cause some
hiccups with electronic ignitions.
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sower
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator and electronic ignition
<... charge right up to 14.1 volts and stabilize ...>
Charging voltage with a fully charged battery is 14.7 volts. 14.1 would
indicate
to me that the alternator is loaded pretty much. Or perhaps enough line
losses to
make 14.7 at the alternator look like 14.1 to the voltmeter. 13.8 indicates
the
alternator is loaded so hell wouldn't have it. Have you checked the volts
and amps
at the B-post of your alternator?
Seems like something's missing here .... Jim S.
Leonard Garceau wrote:
>
> I'm doing runups on my conversion with a 55 amp nippondenso alternator
and
> have a intermitten problem. Sometimes as the volt meter reads about 13.8
> volts the needle moves back and forth between lets say 13.8 and 13.9 and
> this causes my engine to miss fire. In other words the electronic
ignition
> doesn't like it. This only happens (or seems so) when the battery is
fully
> charged. If I let the battery run down a bit, it seems to charge right up
to
> 14.1 volts and stablize. Any Ideas?
>
> I also have a miss fire a 4000 rpm. Does anyone know about the range of
> spark plugs to run? Colder? By how much?
>
> My engine is a nissan VQ maxima V-6. It is running great so far. I'm up
to
> 4500 rpm static.
>
> Leonard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vince Ackerman" <vack(at)mac.com>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor vibration problem
>
> >
> > BTW, to where do you want me to send it??
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 08:21 AM, Vince Ackerman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
> > > which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
> > > across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
> > > you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
> > > address. I will happily pay for it.
> > >
> > > No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
> > > quite a market for something like that.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Vince Ackerman
> > > 17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
> > > Portland, OR 97231
> > >
> > > 503-621-0511
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
> > >>> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
> > >>> For
> > >>> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
> > >>> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet
> > >>> on
> > >>> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the
power
> > >>> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it
seems
> > >>> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because
> > >>> my
> > >>> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
> > >>> and
> > >>> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
> > >>> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
> > >>> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
> > >>> electrically
> > >>> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
> > >>> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
> > >> severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
> > >> energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
> > >> the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
> > >> terminal to small terminal).
> > >>
> > >> If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
> > >> contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
> > >> you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
> > >> me your questionable device. There's something seriously
> > >> wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
> > >>
> > >> Bob . . .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _-
> > >>
======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _-
> > >>
======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> > >> _-
> > >>
======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _-
> > >>
======================================================================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > _-
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >
> > > _-
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> > > _-
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >
> > > _-
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--
Jim Sower
Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Electronic tacho & mag check |
I have heard of people taking a couple of capacitors and connecting them in
series with the P-leads, then connect both leads, after the capacitors, to
the tach. I am not sure how well this would work with your tach.
I personally would look for a different system that had the capability to
monitor both p-leads all the time and let you know if there is any
difference. That is an engine monitor which could notify you in flight of
any difference in the RPMs of the left and right mag.
I am currently working on building such an engine monitoring system.
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neville
Kilford
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tacho & mag check
I was thinking I would use an electronic tacho -- something like a UMA tacho
/ hour meter that hooks up to a magneto. Thing is, is it still possible to
do a mag check from the tacho? I'm assuming that switching to the other mag
during a mag check would make the tacho go to zero, and thus it wouldn't be
any use for seeing the mag drop.
I can't see that this would be the case though -- it seems too obvious, and
presumably UMA would have thought of a solution.
Does anyone have any experience of thise type of tach? Many thanks in
anticipation.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic tacho & mag check |
Trampas,
Thanks -- and let me know progress on your EMS. None of the ones out there
really do what I want to do. The EI UBG-16 comes close, but it focuses on
cylinder temperatures, leaving all the other inputs as poor relations. I'd
really like a 2-1/4" round or small rectangular LCD gauge that, monitored
different inputs and flashed up any errant values.
Anyway, thanks for your tacho notes. I was thinking I might use a SPDT
relay. It would normally monitor the L magneto, but when the L magneto was
grounded, this would pull the relay and switch the input to the right
magneto. However, I'm rather unclear on the implications of this.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tacho & mag check
>
> I have heard of people taking a couple of capacitors and connecting them in
> series with the P-leads, then connect both leads, after the capacitors, to
> the tach. I am not sure how well this would work with your tach.
>
> I personally would look for a different system that had the capability to
> monitor both p-leads all the time and let you know if there is any
> difference. That is an engine monitor which could notify you in flight of
> any difference in the RPMs of the left and right mag.
>
> I am currently working on building such an engine monitoring system.
>
> Trampas
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter/mag switch |
I like to keep it simple. I have two toggle switches for ignition and a push button
starter.
Just a theory ... Jim S.
"David.vonLinsowe" wrote:
>
> Hi Bob and list,
>
> I'm using two switches for my ignition, one for the left mag and starter
> (double pole) and an other switch for the right electronic ignition.
> I'm upgrading to an all electric panel with a Grand Raids Tech. EIS and
> doing away with the tach cable.
>
> What do you think about the idea of using a triple pole switch for the
> left mag and starter and add a circuit to switch to the EI tach info
> when the mag is off? The EI tach info will have twice the rpm, but I
> don't see that as an issue. Is there a better way?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
>
--
Jim Sower
Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter/mag switch |
>
>
>Hi Bob and list,
>
>I'm using two switches for my ignition, one for the left mag and starter
>(double pole) and an other switch for the right electronic ignition.
>I'm upgrading to an all electric panel with a Grand Raids Tech. EIS and
>doing away with the tach cable.
>
>What do you think about the idea of using a triple pole switch for the
>left mag and starter and add a circuit to switch to the EI tach info
>when the mag is off? The EI tach info will have twice the rpm, but I
>don't see that as an issue. Is there a better way?
not sure about the "twice the rpm" statement but yes,
most electronic tachs work best while watching only one of
two mags at a time. A third pole on one mag switch
can be used to swap tach sensing to the opposite
mag when it is in the OFF position. It doesn't matter which
mag you do this with.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic tacho & mag check |
>
>
>I was thinking I would use an electronic tacho -- something like a UMA tacho
>/ hour meter that hooks up to a magneto. Thing is, is it still possible to
>do a mag check from the tacho? I'm assuming that switching to the other mag
>during a mag check would make the tacho go to zero, and thus it wouldn't be
>any use for seeing the mag drop.
>
>I can't see that this would be the case though -- it seems too obvious, and
>presumably UMA would have thought of a solution.
>
>Does anyone have any experience of thise type of tach? Many thanks in
>anticipation.
see my post of a few minutes ago. Also see:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/elect_tach.jpg
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Electronic tacho & mag check |
>
>
>I personally would look for a different system that had the capability to
>monitor both p-leads all the time and let you know if there is any
>difference. That is an engine monitor which could notify you in flight of
>any difference in the RPMs of the left and right mag.
How would this happen? If you have two devices driven from
the same shaft, their rpms are in lock-step with each other.
If there is any difference, it would have to be because one
had broken off entirely and was reading ZERO rpm. If they're
running at all, they're exactly matched.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Rotorway Massive Failure |
A colleague of mine has a Rotorway Exec... He was taking off this past
weekend... The skids were about 2 inches off the ground when he had a total
power failure involving the engine/charging system... Looking it over he
found blown fuses in the circuit(s) to the engine... Only the instruments
are still lighting up with the master turned on... He was asking me for
advice... Rotorway has him looking for a shorted wire in the harness and
ignition.... I doubt that as the source of the problem...
I suggested that I suspected the alternator had a major OV and/or internal
short that took out the main fuses and left him with no ignition power from
the battery... I recommended that he remove the alternator and take it to
the local auto electric rebuilder and have it tested for output and
regulation ( I do not know whether it is internally or externally regulated,
and he didn't even understand the question when I asked him)
Obviously there are many possible scenarios... I am aware of most of them,
and will not bore the group with a recitation, and that discussion is not
the reason for this message...
It sounds like Rotorway does not have an essentials bus/battery with
appropriate OVP and isolation for the electrically dependent engine ignition
(hint, hint, Robert)... Those on the list who have or know someone with a
Rotorway would be well advised to (help them) determine their level of risk
of ignition failure... When/if I learn actual electrical facts about this
bird and get to put hands on, and to see the electrical diagram, I will
inform the list...
Cheers ... Denny
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator and electronic ignition |
>
>Leonard,
>
>First verify that the miss is caused by the alternator by disabling the
>alternator and running just off the battery.
>
>Then if the problem does appear to be the alternator, check alternator
>output and voltage as mentioned below. I will bet that the alternator has a
>bad diode and thus is not outputting full power (current and voltage). Also
>with a bad diode the alternator will output a lot of "AC ripple" which is
>basically noise. This noise can be misread by the electronic ignition as a
>signal to fire the coil, which would cause a miss.
>
>The best way to check AC ripple is with a scope, however a multimeter will
>work as well. Turn the meter to AC voltage and connect positive lead to B+
>on alternator, and negative to alternator body. You should read less than
>400mV, a rough number, of AC voltage. If the voltage is high, most likely
>you have a bad diode.
>
>Also check your grounds again, a bad engine ground could also cause some
>hiccups with electronic ignitions.
Leonard, the investigation Trampas has cited is a good one - but
I have additional concerns . . . The notion that an ignition system
can be affected by ANY condition on the bus other than voltage being
too low to function is troubling. Any ignition system worth it's
salt will function nicely to some voltage below that at which a
battery is essentially dead . . . DO-160 suggests 9.0 volts.
Who's ignition system are you using? Have you talked to the
manufacturer as to any know sensitivities to bus quality?
This is pretty important not to investigate to the best
we know how to do.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar overvoltage protector ... |
>
>I've heard that Bob sells these "crowbar overvoltage protectors". I need
>one pretty bad.
>I've been to the web site but can't find one there. Did I hear
>wrong? How do I protect from
>alternator runaway?
The OV module is sold by B&C down near the bottom of the page at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
There is nothing you need to do to "protect" the alternator . . .
the crowbar ov system protects the AIRPLANE from a malfunctioning
alternator. Got your order for a book and it's going out in a few
minutes. I've forwarded your request for OVM-14 crowbar module
to B&C. I suspect it will go out today.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery charger |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Dennis Jones (djones(at)foxvalley.net) on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 at 16:30:28
>
>Tuesday, October 7, 2003
>
>Dennis Jones
>
>,
>Email: djones(at)foxvalley.net
>Comments/Questions: You use to reference battery chargers that have the
>ability to monitor battery temperature as well as all the other required
>items (12 ant 24 volts, starting ability). Do you still have chargers you
>recommend for us aviator types?
Don't worry about temperature compensation. This is unnecessary
for 99% of common battery usage in airplanes. How do you plan
to use this? If you have an RG battery, you can put the airplane
away and come back in 6 months and the battery will be in good
shape.
I have several battery maintainers that I use for my portable
instrumentation power packs . . . here's an example:
http://www.atvpartsstore.com/automatic_battery_charger.html
There are dozens that cost $30-40 range and work nice.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
>
>At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
>which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
>across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
>you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
>address. I will happily pay for it.
>
>No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
>quite a market for something like that.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Vince Ackerman
>17977 NW Sauvie Island Rd
>Portland, OR 97231
>
>503-621-0511
Send your bad contactor to Bob Nuckolls, 6936 Bainbridge Road,
Wichita, Ks 67226-1008
I've e-mailed B&C to get you a replacement contactor
on the way with my compliments.
Bob . . .
>On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
> >> terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project.
> >> For
> >> reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
> >> electrical system I noticed that tapping with a small rubber mallet on
> >> the bracket that it's mounted to will cause it to interrupt the power
> >> momentarily. It doesn't matter if I tap from top or bottom, it seems
> >> to disconnect for a split second. I know it's disconnecting because my
> >> rotor tach goes through it's initialization test on first power up,
> >> and
> >> it's doing that every time. Also, other indicator lights flicker, so
> >> it's not just the tach, nor loose battery leads, etc.
> >>
> >> You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
> >> (they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be
> >> electrically
> >> interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
> >> perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
> >
> >
> > What's your battery voltage? It may be so low as to
> > severely reduce the holding force of the coil in the
> > energized mode . . . but it has to sag really low. Measure
> > the voltage across the coil while energized (battery+
> > terminal to small terminal).
> >
> > If the voltage is over 10v, I'd like to get my hands on that
> > contactor. If you'll send me you address, I'll have B&C ship
> > you one of their battery contactors today and you can send
> > me your questionable device. There's something seriously
> > wrong with it if you can get interruptions with vibration.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotorway Massive Failure |
>
>
>A colleague of mine has a Rotorway Exec... He was taking off this past
>weekend... The skids were about 2 inches off the ground when he had a total
>power failure involving the engine/charging system... Looking it over he
>found blown fuses in the circuit(s) to the engine... Only the instruments
>are still lighting up with the master turned on... He was asking me for
>advice... Rotorway has him looking for a shorted wire in the harness and
>ignition.... I doubt that as the source of the problem...
>
>I suggested that I suspected the alternator had a major OV and/or internal
>short that took out the main fuses and left him with no ignition power from
>the battery... I recommended that he remove the alternator and take it to
>the local auto electric rebuilder and have it tested for output and
>regulation ( I do not know whether it is internally or externally regulated,
>and he didn't even understand the question when I asked him)
>Obviously there are many possible scenarios... I am aware of most of them,
>and will not bore the group with a recitation, and that discussion is not
>the reason for this message...
>
>It sounds like Rotorway does not have an essentials bus/battery with
>appropriate OVP and isolation for the electrically dependent engine ignition
>(hint, hint, Robert)... Those on the list who have or know someone with a
>Rotorway would be well advised to (help them) determine their level of risk
>of ignition failure... When/if I learn actual electrical facts about this
>bird and get to put hands on, and to see the electrical diagram, I will
>inform the list...
>Cheers ... Denny
There are MANY questions that need to be explored to adequately
understand root cause of the failure and then deduce why the failure
was intolerable. When you have multiple blown fuses, this does
suggest a severe ov condition. I agree that a "sorted wire in harness"
is going to be found as root cause.
Before he gets out hammers-n-saws, have him contact me either here
on the list or directly. Let's do this investigation in an orderly
fashion that doesn't eliminate evidence before it can be examined.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
>
>At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
>which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
>across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
>you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
>address. I will happily pay for it.
>
>No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
>quite a market for something like that.
I'm not aware of a solid state contactor capable
of battery contactor service that handles bi-directional
current flows commensurate with this application. The
technology is out there to do it but it would be MUCH
more expensive than the plain-vanilla contactor. They're
old technology but quite mature and very inexpensive. If
your system is failure tolerant, then the absolute quality
and/or service life should not be a driving issue. I'd
use them in my own airplane. Let's see what's going on
with the one that's giving you problems. This is a RARE
event and I'd like to understand what's happening.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor vibration problem |
>
> >
> >I installed a battery master switch with contactor (one or the 3
> >terminal ones sold by Aircraft Spruce) on my Rotorway 162f project. For
> >reasons of space I installed it upside down. While testing out the
> >You can understand my hesitation about using this since it's a helo
> >(they aren't the smoothest) with two FADEC's that can't be electrically
> >interrupted. Are there any stronger or more reliable contactors,
> >perhaps even solid state? Any suggestions for how to fix this?
> >
> >Thanks
> >Vince Ackerman
> >N777FB
>
>We had similar type of problem in the Glasairs. It was discovered that
>during high g loads, the contactors would separate. The fix was mounting
>them horizontally.
Properly designed and operating contactors are not
position sensitive. If changing mounting orientation
of a contactor "fixed" anything, then it simply covered
up a symptom of a profound problem with the contactor's
design or quality.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotorway Massive Failure - keyboard dyslexia repost |
>
>
> >
> >
> >A colleague of mine has a Rotorway Exec... He was taking off this past
> >weekend... The skids were about 2 inches off the ground when he had a total
> >power failure involving the engine/charging system... Looking it over he
> >found blown fuses in the circuit(s) to the engine... Only the instruments
> >are still lighting up with the master turned on... He was asking me for
> >advice... Rotorway has him looking for a shorted wire in the harness and
> >ignition.... I doubt that as the source of the problem...
> >
> >I suggested that I suspected the alternator had a major OV and/or internal
> >short that took out the main fuses and left him with no ignition power from
> >the battery... I recommended that he remove the alternator and take it to
> >the local auto electric rebuilder and have it tested for output and
> >regulation ( I do not know whether it is internally or externally regulated,
> >and he didn't even understand the question when I asked him)
> >Obviously there are many possible scenarios... I am aware of most of them,
> >and will not bore the group with a recitation, and that discussion is not
> >the reason for this message...
> >
> >It sounds like Rotorway does not have an essentials bus/battery with
> >appropriate OVP and isolation for the electrically dependent engine ignition
> >(hint, hint, Robert)... Those on the list who have or know someone with a
> >Rotorway would be well advised to (help them) determine their level of risk
> >of ignition failure... When/if I learn actual electrical facts about this
> >bird and get to put hands on, and to see the electrical diagram, I will
> >inform the list...
> >Cheers ... Denny
>
> There are MANY questions that need to be explored to adequately
> understand root cause of the failure and then deduce why the failure
> was intolerable. When you have multiple blown fuses, this does
> suggest a severe ov condition. I agree that a "shorted wire in harness"
> is probably NOT going to be found as root cause.
>
> Before he gets out hammers-n-saws, have him contact me either here
> on the list or directly. Let's do this investigation in an orderly
> fashion that doesn't eliminate evidence before it can be examined.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Hopefully it's not that complicated. This is what I want to do.
>
>Main fuse block -- 5 amp fuse -- fuel pump -- terminal strip -- infinity
>grip -- ground
>
>=AND>
>Main fuse block -- 2 amp fuse -- dimmer board -- 3 enun. LEDs --
>terminal strip -- infinity grip -- ground
>
>When the switch is closed on the grip, it provides ground to both the
>pump and it's one enun light. I couldn't get this fuctionality
>switching the positive unless I had one dimmer board per enun light,
>which is not a reasonable option.
Drive on . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Electronic tacho & mag check |
Bob,
What happens if the points in the mag shorts or a wire breaks, or any other
failure. After all one of the reasons to have dual magnetos is for back up
therefore there is a perceived risk of a mag failing.
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tacho & mag check
>
>
>I personally would look for a different system that had the capability to
>monitor both p-leads all the time and let you know if there is any
>difference. That is an engine monitor which could notify you in flight of
>any difference in the RPMs of the left and right mag.
How would this happen? If you have two devices driven from
the same shaft, their rpms are in lock-step with each other.
If there is any difference, it would have to be because one
had broken off entirely and was reading ZERO rpm. If they're
running at all, they're exactly matched.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Waters <pedroagua(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator Noise in Headset |
--0-1048268627-1065643404=:33612
Bob,
Apologies if this is a duplicate post; I seem to have trouble getting this out.
I'm starting to develop an electrical problem in my RV-4 and I'm hoping you can
help me diagnose it.
I bought the RV-4 (completed) last year. It was built in 1988 and I'm the fourth
owner. It's a solid airplane, but the documentation is thin and from the
logbooks it appears that the electrical stuff (lights, radios) were added piecemeal
over the plane's first few years, so the electrical system is a bit tangled.
For example, my nav light circuit breaker kept popping. I finally figured
out that the builder / modifier has three 2-amp bulbs (6 amps) going through
a 5-amp CB. So, after consulting the wire selection graph, I replaced the
5A CB with a 10A CB. Worked great.
However, on my next flight, I started hearing a whine in my headset. More of
a high-pitched tone, actually. I realized that it was a solid tone that was
being cut off intermittently, making it sounding a lot like Morse from an VOR.
As I returned from a cross country it got louder and became almost constant.
The whine / tone is present with the radios off, strobes off, and alternator
off, although I didn't think to pull the breakers on those circuits. I don't
hear it on deck with all the avionics running off the RG battery. Inflight I
can hear it in the background during intercom use and radio reception. It disappears
briefly after a radio transmission and then returns after a few seconds.
The plane has a VDO analog voltmeter, no ammeter. ( I plan to install an VA-1A
EI volt/ammeter shortly.) As I heard the tone inflight I immediately noticed
that the voltage was increasing to about 15.5 V and fluctuating there for
a while. Then it settled down to 14.5 V or so. Th
e
problem comes and goes and is not entirely repeatable. The voltmeter reads 14.0
volts on deck with just the battery on and the engine not running (no alternator),
so I think the VDO voltmeter is accurate.
Also, perhaps related and perhaps not, the LORAN started telling me a few weeks
back, before I heard any of this headset noise, that I was in the Southern
Hemisphere when I was flying across Oregon. I had thought the LORAN had just died
due to age, and I was buying a GPS anyway, so I've just turned it off and
planned to remove it.
Initially I was thinking the obvious thought that the alternator's going. After
reading the Aeroelectric Connnetion I'm wondering if it might not be the voltage
regulator. Because the plane has so little documentation, I don't know
the specifics of the alternator at all or how old it is, just that it's been
working well so far. My A&P found nothing wrong with it at the last annual 60
hours ago. I'm wondering if the impending alternator / regulator failure is
putting out RF that's getting into the headset and was jamming the LORAN. (It
turns out that the LORAN had locked onto the wrong nav solution -- that whole
"two solutions to the quadratic equation" thing. Letting it sit on deck for
a few minutes with the engine off allowed it to "find itself" correctly back in
California. But I'm still wondering if the initial event of it getting lost
wasn't related to LORAN signal jamming
from the alternator / regulator.)
Also, I noticed in flight that with the electrical system fully loaded up, the
voltmeter needle also starts rapidly fluctuating at 14.5-15.5V. I see this
when I turn on the landing light. Due to the lack of documentation I have no
idea how many total amps are actually flowing through the system, so I'm wondering
if turning on the landing lights actually
puts the plane's total current draw above the rated output of the alternator.
Is fluctuating system voltage a sign of that? This airplane is well-built structurally
and the engine's in good shape, but the more I look at the electrical
system, the more I relaize that it's not quite what I'd like to see. Since
avionics and lights were added piecemeal over the years by different people, I
wouldn't be surprised to see as basic a mistake as an undercapacity alternator.
(Remember the undercapacity CB I found.)
Lastly, I'm also noting that the whine showed up within two flight hours of
my replacing the nav lights circuit breaker. Although I can't imagine why that
would have an effect, I also should mention that the circuit breaker panel
is homemade and possibly not well shielded; perhaps in the course of working
with the panel to swap out the breaker I changed something.
If you could offer any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate it.
Best,
Pete Waters
(registered for your class in Watsonville)
---------------------------------
--0-1048268627-1065643404=:33612
Bob,
Apologies if this is a duplicate post; I seem to have trouble getting
this out.
I'm starting to develop an electrical problem in my RV-4 and I'm hoping
you can help me diagnose it.
I bought the RV-4 (completed) last
year. It was built in 1988 and I'm the fourth owner. It's a solid airplane,
but the documentation is thin and from the logbooks it appears that the electrical
stuff (lights, radios) were added piecemeal over the plane's first few
years, so the electrical system is a bit tangled. For example, my nav
light circuit breaker kept popping. I finally figured out that the builder
/ modifier has three 2-amp bulbs (6 amps) going through a 5-amp CB.
So, after consulting the wire selection graph, I replaced the 5A CB with
a 10A CB. Worked great.
However, on my next flight, I started
hearing a whine in my headset. More of a high-pitched tone, actually.
I realized that it was a solid tone that was being cut off intermittently,
making it sounding a lot like Morse from an VOR. A
s I
returned from a cross country it got louder and became almost constant.
The whine / tone is present with the radios off, strobes off, and alternator off,
although I didn't think to pull the breakers on those circuits. I don't
hear it on deck with all the avionics running off the RG battery. Inflight
I can hear it in the background during intercom use and radio reception.
It disappears briefly after a radio transmission and then returns after a few
seconds. The plane has a VDO analog voltmeter, no ammeter.( I plan
to installan VA-1A EI volt/ammeter shortly.) As I heard
the tone inflight I immediately noticed that the voltage was increasing to
about 15.5 V and fluctuating there for a while. Then it settled down to
14.5 V or so. The problem comes and goes and is not entirely repeatable.
The voltmeter reads 14.0 volts on deck with just the battery on and the
engine not running (no alternator), so I think
theVDO voltmeter is accurate.
Also, perhaps related and perhaps not, the LORAN started telling mea
few weeks back, before I heard any of this headset noise,that I
was in the Southern Hemisphere when I was flying across Oregon. I had thoughtthe
LORANhad just died due to age, and I was buying a GPS anyway, so
I've just turned itoffand planned to remove it.
Initially
I was thinking the obvious thought that the alternator's going. After
reading the Aeroelectric Connnetion I'm wondering if it might not be the voltage
regulator. Because the plane has so little documentation, I don't know
the specifics ofthe alternator at all or how old it is, just that it's
been working well so far. My AP found nothing wrong with it at the
last annual 60 hours ago. I'm wondering if the impending alternator /
regulatorfailure is putting out RF that's getting into the headset and
was jamming the LORAN. (It turns out that the L
ORAN had
locked onto thewrong nav solution -- that whole "two solutions to the quadratic
equation" thing.Letting it sit on deck for a few minutes with
the engine off allowed it to "find itself" correctly back in California.But
I'm still wondering if the initial event of it getting lost wasn't
related to LORAN signal jamming
from thealternator / regulator.)
Also, I noticed in flight that with the electrical system fully loaded
up, the voltmeter needle also starts rapidly fluctuating at 14.5-15.5V.
I see this when I turn on the landing light. Due to the lack of documentation
I have no idea how many total amps are actually flowing through the
system, so I'm wondering if turning on the landing lights actually
puts the
plane's total current draw above the rated output of the alternator. Isfluctuating
system voltage a sign of that? This airplane is well-built
structurally and the engine'sin good shape, but the more I look at
the electrical system, the more I relaize that it's not quite what I'd like to
see. Since avionics and lights were added piecemeal over the years by
different people, I wouldn't be surprised to see as basic a mistake as an undercapacity
alternator. (Remember the undercapacity CB I found.)
Lastly, I'm also noting that the whine showedup within
two flighthours of my replacing thenav lights circuit breaker.
Although I can't imagine why that would have an effect, I also should
mention that thecircuit breaker panel is homemade and possibly not well
shielded; perhaps in the course of working with the panel to swap out the
breaker I changed something.
If you could offer any thoughts
on this, I'd appreciate it.
Best,
Pete Waters
(registered
for your class in Watsonville)
--0-1048268627-1065643404=:33612--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miller.Warren" <Warren.Miller(at)igt.com> |
| Subject: | Battery Contactor vibration problem |
I just coincidentally had a vendor-visit from the Crydom rep.
SO, I just happened to ask him about Solid State high amp. relays.
They have some with 100Amp load current (max) that operate 3.5-32 volts DC
control
voltage. They will switch 0-60 Volts dc. These will have to be heatsinked,
of course
but they will mount easily with 2 fasteners.
PN's D06D60, D06D80, or D06D100.
I haven't checked out their website yet. www.crydom.com
FYI.
W.Miller
>
>At the time I was testing it the volt meter was reading 12.4 volts,
>which I thought should have been enough. I didn't measure the voltage
>across the coil but I will. I will take you up on your offer and send
>you the contactor. I would like the B&C contactor sent to the below
>address. I will happily pay for it.
>
>No one makes a solid state contactor? I would think there would be
>quite a market for something like that.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
The deed is done. All systems appear to work as expected. Thanks.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 1:40 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switched gnd?
>
>
> -->
>
> >-->
> >
> >Hopefully it's not that complicated. This is what I want to do.
> >
> >Main fuse block -- 5 amp fuse -- fuel pump -- terminal strip --
> >infinity grip -- ground
> >
> >=AND> >
> >Main fuse block -- 2 amp fuse -- dimmer board -- 3 enun. LEDs --
> >terminal strip -- infinity grip -- ground
> >
> >When the switch is closed on the grip, it provides ground to
> both the
> >pump and it's one enun light. I couldn't get this fuctionality
> >switching the positive unless I had one dimmer board per enun light,
> >which is not a reasonable option.
>
>
> Drive on . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Battery Contactor vibration problem |
>
>
>I just coincidentally had a vendor-visit from the Crydom rep.
>SO, I just happened to ask him about Solid State high amp. relays.
>
>They have some with 100Amp load current (max) that operate 3.5-32 volts DC
>control
>voltage. They will switch 0-60 Volts dc. These will have to be heatsinked,
>of course
>but they will mount easily with 2 fasteners.
>PN's D06D60, D06D80, or D06D100.
>I haven't checked out their website yet. www.crydom.com
>
>FYI.
>W.Miller
These are good for controlling a uni-directional load.
Keep in mind that a battery contactor needs to have good
performance BOTH directions . . . OUT for cranking, IN
for battery charging. Inrush current to a starter motor
can be on the order of 300-500 amps for several milliseconds.
The relay has to shrug this off too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | Battery Contactor vibration problem |
Wow, those look pretty slick. I'd be interested to know if you guys
think they appropriate for our aircraft (continuous duty, etc...).
FYI: Mouser lists the 80amp unit at $85.00.
Jon
> -->
>
> I just coincidentally had a vendor-visit from the Crydom rep.
> SO, I just happened to ask him about Solid State high amp. relays.
>
> They have some with 100Amp load current (max) that operate
> 3.5-32 volts DC control voltage. They will switch 0-60 Volts
> dc. These will have to be heatsinked, of course but they
> will mount easily with 2 fasteners. PN's D06D60, D06D80, or
> D06D100. I haven't checked out their website yet. www.crydom.com
>
> FYI.
> W.Miller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Electronic tacho & mag check |
>
>Bob,
>
>What happens if the points in the mag shorts or a wire breaks, or any other
>failure. After all one of the reasons to have dual magnetos is for back up
>therefore there is a perceived risk of a mag failing.
>
>Trampas
I think I understand your question . . . we were discussing the value
of looking for the rpm readings from two mags to be DIFFERENT . . .
I suggeseted that they're either dead-nuts in lock step with each
other -OR- one of them is DEAD.
Were you suggesting that there should be some provision for ACTIVE mag
failure warning? There have been about 250,000 airplanes built
in US alone that have never had a mag failure warning system
installed.
An excellent demonstration of the value of the FMEA . . . and
the underlying notions that (1) you're not likely to get dual failures
on any single tank of fuel and (2) you'll catch the failed mag at
next preflight. Some pilots do a mag-check during taxi to parking
so as to get a heads-up about an unperceived failure during the
flight . . . it's better to know that a mag has crapped taxiing
in than during next pre-flight.
An analysis of this very long and rich history of dual-mag engines
for flight suggests that an active mag failure warning system
is unnecessary.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Solid state relay to replace master contactor |
Warren,
I just checked out the web site for the product you mention. See it's specs at
the web page below:
http://www.crydom.com/pdf/D06D.pdf
This unit would not work as a master contactor. It's maximum rated surge is only
270 amps. This won't cut it for all situations
when cranking the starter.
Charlie Kuss
From: "Miller.Warren" <Warren.Miller(at)igt.com>
Date: 2003/10/08 Wed PM 05:40:02 EDT
> > To: "'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'"
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor vibration problem
snipped
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dean Psiropoulos" <deanpsir(at)easystreet.com> |
| Subject: | Switches and breakers. |
Your infinite words of wisdom are requested Bob:
I have purchased several switches and breakers from a local electronics
store and am wondering about their suitability for use in aircraft
(price
was substantially lower than similar ones from Aircraft Spruce or even
Van's). The hardware data is as follows:
1) Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 7.5 AMP breaker/switch,
W31-X2M1G-7.50, made in Mexico, screw terminals
2) Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 6 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-6P, made
in
Mexico, fast-on terminals
3) SIEMENS 50 VDC, 3 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-3P, made in Mexico,
fast-on terminals
4) Potter and Brumfield 32 VDC, 4 AMP breaker, W28-XQ1A-4P, !!!!!
made
in USA !!!!!, fast-on terminals
5) Carling Switch 15 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST lighted (incandescent)
rocker switch, made in Mexico, fast-on terminals
6) EDK 5 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST lighted (LED) rocker switch, made
in
Japan, fast-on terminals
Any good things or bad things to say about the above hardware or general
words of wisdom on these items? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A
Can't wait to start wiring!
Your infinite words of wisdom are requested
Bob:
I have purchased several switches and breakers from a
local
electronics store and am wondering about their suitability for use in
aircraft
(price was substantially lower than similar ones from Aircraft Spruce or
even
Vans). The hardware data is as follows:
1)
Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 7.5 AMP
breaker/switch,
W31-X2M1G-7.50, made in Mexico, screw
terminals
2)
Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 6 AMP breaker,
W58-XB1A4A-6P,
made in Mexico, fast-on
terminals
3)
SIEMENS 50 VDC, 3 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-3P,
made in
Mexico, fast-on terminals
4)
Potter and Brumfield 32 VDC, 4 AMP breaker,
W28-XQ1A-4P,
!!!!! made in USA !!!!!, fast-on
terminals
5)
Carling Switch 15 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST
lighted
(incandescent) rocker switch, made in Mexico,
fast-on terminals
6)
EDK 5 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST
lighted (LED)
rocker switch, made in Japan,
fast-on terminals
Any good things or bad things to say about the above
hardware or general words of wisdom on these items?
Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A
Cant wait to start wiring!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Switchable tach input source for Figure Z-27 |
Bob,
I've been straining my pea brain studying all of your electrical schematics. I'm
building a VFR RV-8A with 1 mag and 1 EI. I'm basing my system on drawing Z-11.
I plan to use figure Z27 to wire my 2 toggle style ignition switches. Earlier
today, you referred another lister to a free hand drawn schematic that will
allow him to switch his tach imput lead between 2 magnetos. Is this
possible to do in conjunction with figure Z-27 for my system? Will it require a
pair of 3-3 switches? I'm using an RMI uMonitor for my tachometer. Please advise.
Charlie Kuss
PS Thanks again for all your efforts on our behalf.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 28 Mags - 10/08/03 |
| From: | <villi.seemann(at)nordea.com> |
Hi Neville
I've just made what you want for a friend with a Druine Turbulent. One mag switch
is replaced by a DPDT. One half is used as the p-lead contact. The other half
is used as a tacho selector.
Dont put relays into such an installation.
Best regards
Villi H. Seemann
Sen. Eng. BSEE
Telephony Team
Infrastructure, Network
Phone (+45) 3333 2101
Cell ph. (+45) 2220 7690
FAX (+45) 3333 1130
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tacho & mag check
>
> I have heard of people taking a couple of capacitors and connecting them in
> series with the P-leads, then connect both leads, after the capacitors, to
> the tach. I am not sure how well this would work with your tach.
>
> I personally would look for a different system that had the capability to
> monitor both p-leads all the time and let you know if there is any
> difference. That is an engine monitor which could notify you in flight of
> any difference in the RPMs of the left and right mag.
>
> I am currently working on building such an engine monitoring system.
>
> Trampas
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Electronic tacho & mag check |
Bob,
From what I have heard and seen I would agree that dual magneto failures are
rare. My thoughts were if you are building an engine monitor and have the
capability to monitor both P-leads then why would you not want to have an
active mag warning?
My personal philosophy is that an engine monitor should monitor the engine
and any related systems. That is the pilot's job is to fly the plane and
enjoy the flight. An engine monitor should provide the pilot with the
information he needs to fly the plane and enjoy his flight.
A lot of this dual mag topic is a philosophical debate. For example I am the
type of person that when a headlight burns out on my car, I replace both
headlights. They were on the same amount of time, and most likely identical
in construction, therefore they will most likely die about the same time.
Kind of like spark plugs in that you would not change just the one that wore
out first. Therefore if your mags were both overhauled at the same time
using the same parts and one failed, then I am of the mind set that
perceives the risk of the other one failing has just increased
significantly. However in reality just like the head lights the other one
may work for several more years, or just a few more hours. Thus it is all
about risk management that is in the headlight example the risk of the
second one failing, in my mind, is greater than the $5-$10 for a new bulb.
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tacho & mag check
>
>Bob,
>
>What happens if the points in the mag shorts or a wire breaks, or any other
>failure. After all one of the reasons to have dual magnetos is for back up
>therefore there is a perceived risk of a mag failing.
>
>Trampas
I think I understand your question . . . we were discussing the value
of looking for the rpm readings from two mags to be DIFFERENT . . .
I suggeseted that they're either dead-nuts in lock step with each
other -OR- one of them is DEAD.
Were you suggesting that there should be some provision for ACTIVE mag
failure warning? There have been about 250,000 airplanes built
in US alone that have never had a mag failure warning system
installed.
An excellent demonstration of the value of the FMEA . . . and
the underlying notions that (1) you're not likely to get dual failures
on any single tank of fuel and (2) you'll catch the failed mag at
next preflight. Some pilots do a mag-check during taxi to parking
so as to get a heads-up about an unperceived failure during the
flight . . . it's better to know that a mag has crapped taxiing
in than during next pre-flight.
An analysis of this very long and rich history of dual-mag engines
for flight suggests that an active mag failure warning system
is unnecessary.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Solid state relay to replace master contactor |
<... maximum rated surge is only 270 amps ...>
But wouldn't it still be ideal for an alternator relay that can be easily shut
off for overvoltage>
chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
--
Jim Sower
Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter/mag switch |
<>
That's a great idea - except that I don't think you don't need a triple pole
switch. Use a double pole switch on one mag to run the mag and starter.
Another double pole switch runs the other mag and also switches the tach.
Should work, right? And doesn't really add much complexity.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter/mag switch |
>
>< can be used to swap tach sensing to the opposite
> mag when it is in the OFF position. It doesn't matter which
> mag you do this with.
> Bob . . .>>
>
>That's a great idea - except that I don't think you don't need a triple pole
>switch. Use a double pole switch on one mag to run the mag and starter.
>Another double pole switch runs the other mag and also switches the tach.
>Should work, right? And doesn't really add much complexity.
If you want to enable starter with R mag OFF and L mag ON then
it takes a dedicated pair of poles as I've illustrated. If
you consider it sufficient to disable the starter button only
when R mag is ON, then yes, a pair of two pole toggles will
do it. Running the starter through both mag switches was to
minimize probability of inadvertent starter operation with the
airplane parked. This is a TINY order of probability so yes,
if you can give up the airplane-parked, starter-lockout then
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/elect_tach2.gif is the
schematic. If you want to retain the parked-airplane, starter-
lockout, then one 3-pole switch is needed as shown in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/elect_tach.gif
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Bob and all,
A friend just asked me a question about the suitable material for the strobe
head on his homebuit.
Can silicone be used to re-seal the glass lens to the transformer/plastic
base of the head ?
If so, what grade is best ?
Thanks,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Starter/mag switch |
| From: | "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com> |
Hi Bob,
Twice the rpm with the electronic ignition is because the mag is putting out one
pulse per rev and the E.I. puts out two. The EIS can be configured for either
one pulse or two, but it can't change in mid stream.
It was also recommended that I use the mag as the primary rpm sensor because of
the response time of the EIS. It can detected potential mag problems by way
of an erratic rpm reading.
Thanks,
Dave
Snip
>What do you think about the idea of using a triple pole switch for the
>left mag and starter and add a circuit to switch to the EI tach info
>when the mag is off? The EI tach info will have twice the rpm, but I
>don't see that as an issue. Is there a better way?
not sure about the "twice the rpm" statement but yes,
most electronic tachs work best while watching only one of
two mags at a time. A third pole on one mag switch
can be used to swap tach sensing to the opposite
mag when it is in the OFF position. It doesn't matter which
mag you do this with.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Starter/mag switch |
| From: | "David.vonLinsowe" <David.vonLinsowe(at)delphi.com> |
Hi Jim,
Actually this setup is even simpler, only two switches. The left mag switch is
three position with the full up position momentary, that's the starter circuit.
It's been working great for the last 300+ hours. I switched to electronic
ignition on the right mag and still no problems.
The problem is when you do away with the mechanical tach and don't have two mags.
When you do a mag check and turn it off you also loose the rpm info. Hence
the need to switch over to the electronic ignition for rpm info when the mag
is off.
Dave
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter/mag switch
I like to keep it simple. I have two toggle switches for ignition and a push button
starter.
Just a theory ... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe head fix |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>A friend just asked me a question about the suitable material for the strobe
>head on his homebuit.
>
>Can silicone be used to re-seal the glass lens to the transformer/plastic
>base of the head ?
>If so, what grade is best ?
Electronic grade (does not smell of vinegar).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fellowsw" <fellows.w(at)ewcapital.net> |
| Subject: | Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs |
> What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read
> something about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If
> you were to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say
> the main bus/fuse block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only
> breaker on the panel, if practical.
FEMA is good concept but .... with many flap systems, the motor will draw
more current than the flap system is designed to take if you extend the
flaps when the speed is a little over the flap extension speed limit. In
this case a breaker in reach is very handy because you can slow the plane
down, reset the breaker and safely extend the flaps. If you have a remote
fuse in such a case, a good pilot will reconsider runway length and
conditions and go to another airport in case the approach speed is too high
with only partially extended flaps. Of course most POHs don't give you any
guidance for runway lengths with no or partially extended flaps. Under the
best of circumstances this is not much fun when a breaker will let you do it
the way you originally wanted to do it. I of course have no personal
experience with this but have heard those dark and stormy night tales.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs |
| From: | "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)rslcom.com.au> |
doesn't everyone practice flapless landings?
I certainly do.
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: fellowsw [mailto:fellows.w(at)ewcapital.net]
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and
CBs
> What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read
> something about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If
> you were to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say
> the main bus/fuse block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only
> breaker on the panel, if practical.
FEMA is good concept but .... with many flap systems, the motor will draw
more current than the flap system is designed to take if you extend the
flaps when the speed is a little over the flap extension speed limit. In
this case a breaker in reach is very handy because you can slow the plane
down, reset the breaker and safely extend the flaps. If you have a remote
fuse in such a case, a good pilot will reconsider runway length and
conditions and go to another airport in case the approach speed is too high
with only partially extended flaps. Of course most POHs don't give you any
guidance for runway lengths with no or partially extended flaps. Under the
best of circumstances this is not much fun when a breaker will let you do it
the way you originally wanted to do it. I of course have no personal
experience with this but have heard those dark and stormy night tales.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "fellowsw" <fellows.w(at)ewcapital.net> |
| Subject: | Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott,
Ian
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs
doesn't everyone practice flapless landings?
I certainly do.
Ian
Of course but as a perfect pilot it is a theoretical exercise for me.
A Dragonair crew on the Airbus couldn't extend the flaps because of a
computer design flaw and practiced one as well into Hong Kong airport. Rumor
has it that it was not that much fun flying the approach 100 knots faster
than normal so it probably depends on the airplane as well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Strobe head fix |
> >
> >Can silicone be used to re-seal the glass lens to the transformer/plastic
> >base of the head ?
> >If so, what grade is best ?
>
> Electronic grade (does not smell of vinegar).
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotorway Massive Failure |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com> |
I am nearly finished building my Rotorway Exec 162f. I have slightly
redesigned the electrical system to be more in line with the standards
and practices found in Bob's Aerolectric book. The Rotorway electrical
system is rather badly designed despite the fact that it has two
FADEC's that are totally dependent on a constant source of 12 volts. If
you have a total electrical failure, the engine quits. Despite that,
this is the first time I've heard of a total failure on any ship. They
supply a wiring harness for the entire aircraft and if you want to
change anything, it involves some major work. I have made an essential
bus and have separated out most of the subsystems to individual
breakers but decided to leave the feed from alternator and battery
alone. I did add a battery master/contactor but wonder if I'm not
putting in a source of failure where one didn't exist before....
I am sending Bob a copy of the electrical system schematic (I promised
him a long time ago).
Vince Ackerman
On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 07:44 AM, Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
>
> A colleague of mine has a Rotorway Exec... He was taking off this past
> weekend... The skids were about 2 inches off the ground when he had a
> total
> power failure involving the engine/charging system... Looking it over
> he
> found blown fuses in the circuit(s) to the engine... Only the
> instruments
> are still lighting up with the master turned on... He was asking me
> for
> advice... Rotorway has him looking for a shorted wire in the harness
> and
> ignition.... I doubt that as the source of the problem...
>
> I suggested that I suspected the alternator had a major OV and/or
> internal
> short that took out the main fuses and left him with no ignition power
> from
> the battery... I recommended that he remove the alternator and take
> it to
> the local auto electric rebuilder and have it tested for output and
> regulation ( I do not know whether it is internally or externally
> regulated,
> and he didn't even understand the question when I asked him)
> Obviously there are many possible scenarios... I am aware of most of
> them,
> and will not bore the group with a recitation, and that discussion is
> not
> the reason for this message...
>
> It sounds like Rotorway does not have an essentials bus/battery with
> appropriate OVP and isolation for the electrically dependent engine
> ignition
> (hint, hint, Robert)... Those on the list who have or know someone
> with a
> Rotorway would be well advised to (help them) determine their level of
> risk
> of ignition failure... When/if I learn actual electrical facts about
> this
> bird and get to put hands on, and to see the electrical diagram, I will
> inform the list...
> Cheers ... Denny
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard May <ram45(at)comporium.net> |
| Subject: | noise in headset when transmitting |
In my aircraft, when I transmit on my comm radio, I hear a loud squeal in
my headset. The avionics shop said it's due to the close proximity of the
antenna to my headset, and the wire that goes across from one side of the
headset to the other picks up the signal. The airplane is all wood, and
the antenna is behind the back seat, inside the fuselage.
Is there anything that can be done to get rid of this annoying noise?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> CBs |
| Subject: | Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and |
CBs
CBs
>
>
> > What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read
> > something about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If
> > you were to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say
> > the main bus/fuse block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only
> > breaker on the panel, if practical.
>
>FEMA is good concept but .... with many flap systems, the motor will draw
>more current than the flap system is designed to take if you extend the
>flaps when the speed is a little over the flap extension speed limit.
VERY rare, and the risk is easy to deduce. . . .
ammeters are cheap and should be part of everyone's toolbox.
If you don't KNOW how much design headroom you've got in your
selection of circuit protection, then I'll respectfully suggest it's
easy to find out.
> In
>this case a breaker in reach is very handy because you can slow the plane
>down, reset the breaker and safely extend the flaps. If you have a remote
>fuse in such a case, a good pilot will reconsider runway length and
>conditions and go to another airport in case the approach speed is too high
>with only partially extended flaps.
An UNEXPECTED trip of circuit protection is a nuisance event
due to poor design and should be fixed. An EXPECTED and PLANNED
for trip means you're (1) flying a spam can and can't fix
it or (2) you don't know how your airplane performs under the full
envelope of flight conditions and made a decision not to
find out.
> Of course most POHs don't give you any
>guidance for runway lengths with no or partially extended flaps. Under the
>best of circumstances this is not much fun when a breaker will let you do it
>the way you originally wanted to do it. I of course have no personal
>experience with this but have heard those dark and stormy night tales.
I have never had to put an airplane down on a field
where the difference between having flaps and not having
flaps would have made a hill of beans worth of difference.
Virtually all the airports I operate out of have 1000' or more
of excess runway. If one plans to push both pilot and
airplane to the edge of performance limits on a landing
then a successful outcome is dependent on proper energy
management and manipulation of controls (where observance
of flap extension speed is but one of many considerations).
I've dissected dozens of dark and stormy night stories
for any engineering facts they might reveal. I may have
found a few useful tid-bits over the years but taken as
a whole, they are pretty much devoid of real data. The pilot who
wrote the story was at the mercy of his instructors,
regulators and manufacturer of the machine he was
operating . . . a victim of collective ignorance
and pockets of arrogance that is killing the certified
segment of GA. The advice these stories offer
miss an important feature of an OBAM aircraft:
I know it's a big shift in attitudes and thinking
to take full advantage of what the OBAM aircraft
community offers. In this particular case, let's
not design for what MAY happen because we don't
make an effort determine what WILL happen.
Then, take CONTROL of it in ways that make our
airplanes (and pilots) stand head and shoulders above the
rest of the GA community.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> contactor |
| Subject: | Re: Solid state relay to replace master |
contactor
contactor
>
><... maximum rated surge is only 270 amps ...>
>But wouldn't it still be ideal for an alternator relay that can be easily
>shut off for overvoltage>
depends on what you call "idea" . . . it's a trade off
of weight, size and $cost$ in order to achieve some
advantage in performance.
If you perceive a positive return on investment for
the substitution, then perhaps it is an ideal
alternative. . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Jumper for Video Camcorder |
Bob,
I want to create a jumper to go from the co-pilot's audio jack to the
microphone input in a camcorder. I have stereo audio jacks. Can you
point me to a schematic that would illustrate how to make a jumper with
an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to mono), then
have the smaller mic jack on the other end? Is this feasible? I think
the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the engine
when videoing in flight. I am assuming that the audio output will not
be too much for the mic input on the camcorder? Can you just plug a
mono audio jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right
channels?
As always, appreciate any input you can provide.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
Bob,
I want to create a jumper to go from
the co-pilot's
audio jack to the microphone input in a camcorder. I have stereo
audio
jacks. Can you point me to a schematic that would illustrate how
to make a
jumper with an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to
mono),
then have the smaller mic jack on the other end? Is this
feasible? I
think the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the
engine when
videoing in flight. I am assuming that the audio output will not
be too
much for the mic input on the camcorder? Can you just plug a mono
audio
jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right
channels?
As always, appreciate any input you can
provide.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB
(Building)
Vero Beach, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter/mag switch |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Twice the rpm with the electronic ignition is because the mag is putting
>out one pulse per rev and the E.I. puts out two. The EIS can be
>configured for either one pulse or two, but it can't change in mid stream.
I'm confused . . . every 4 cyl, 4-cycle engine needs two sparks per
revolution. I've seen waste-spark electronic systems that drive only
two of the four cylinders each . . . monitoring one of these systems
for rpm data would indeed produce 1 pulse per revolution.
On the other hand, a mag is just a self-powered version of the
Kettering points, capacitor, coil and distributor system . . . which
would produce two point operations, i.e. two pulses per revolution.
Is your EI system one of those I described above?
I developed a tach multiplier module for a Dragonfly builder
in AZ who was using a four-coil, waste-spark system on his
4-cyl Hapi engine. The stock VDO tachometer was unable to
resolve true engine rpm because the tach signal from one
ignition came in at half the expected rate. The multiplier
features a phase-locked-loop oscillator that used the half-rate
signal to produce a full rate output.
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/VDO_Tach_Multiplier.pdf
This was designed and tested for the VDO tach, it might work
as-is for your tach but can be certainly modified to accommodate
any differences. This or a similar device could be wired between
the EI sensor signal and the tach select switch so that the
electronic tach sees the proper pulse rate vs. rpm for both
ignition systems.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotorway Massive Failure |
>
>I am nearly finished building my Rotorway Exec 162f. I have slightly
>redesigned the electrical system to be more in line with the standards
>and practices found in Bob's Aerolectric book. The Rotorway electrical
>system is rather badly designed despite the fact that it has two
>FADEC's that are totally dependent on a constant source of 12 volts. If
>you have a total electrical failure, the engine quits. Despite that,
>this is the first time I've heard of a total failure on any ship. They
>supply a wiring harness for the entire aircraft and if you want to
>change anything, it involves some major work. I have made an essential
>bus and have separated out most of the subsystems to individual
>breakers but decided to leave the feed from alternator and battery
>alone. I did add a battery master/contactor but wonder if I'm not
>putting in a source of failure where one didn't exist before....
>
>I am sending Bob a copy of the electrical system schematic (I promised
>him a long time ago).
I seem to recall having a conversation about this airplane
some years ago. I can't recall if it was a builder or a factory
rep. I might even still have the drawings in a file somewhere.
As I recall, the conversation didn't go very far . . . after
the first few exchanges of questions and recommendations, the
guy at the other end of the conversation didn't like what
he was hearing and quit participating . . .
Let's revisit the system here on the List . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches and breakers. |
>Your infinite words of wisdom are requested Bob:
>
>
>I have purchased several switches and breakers from a local electronics
>store and am wondering about their suitability for use in aircraft (price
>was substantially lower than similar ones from Aircraft Spruce or even Van
>s). The hardware data is as follows:
>
>
>1)Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 7.5 AMP breaker/switch, W31-X2M1G-7.50,
>made in Mexico, screw terminals
>
>2)Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 6 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-6P, made in
>Mexico, fast-on terminals
>
>3)SIEMENS 50 VDC, 3 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-3P, made in Mexico, fast-on
>terminals
>
>4)Potter and Brumfield 32 VDC, 4 AMP breaker, W28-XQ1A-4P, !!!!! made in
>USA !!!!!, fast-on terminals
>
>5)Carling Switch 15 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST lighted (incandescent) rocker
>switch, made in Mexico, fast-on terminals
>
>6)EDK 5 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST lighted (LED) rocker switch, made in Japan,
>fast-on terminals
>
>
>Any good things or bad things to say about the above hardware or general
>words of wisdom on these items? Thanks.
Dean, you may be new to the list and are unaware
of our studies on goals for worry-free parts selection . . .
A reliable system is based not so much on WHAT parts
you use but upon HOW they are used. The reliable
flight system has a FAILURE TOLERANT architecture.
If you don't have a copy of the book,
See chapter 17 of the 'Connection at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf
There's nothing particularly good, bad or indifferent
about the list of parts you've cited. The manner in
which you choose to use these parts can have a profound
effect on reliability of your project.
Tell us about your project and how you plan to use it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna cable routing question |
>
>Most convenient routing for my comm antenna cable (RG-400) takes it
>within about 3" of my Facet fuel pump- is this a no-no? Anyone have
>this condition in use without ill effects? Antenna on fuse bottom.
>
>Would the same apply for the xpndr antenna, also on fuse bottom?
After we've accomplished basic goals for noise reduction
with the use of single point grounds, proper use of shielding
where REALLY useful, reducing the number of fat wires in the
cockpit, all other issues drop to negligible if not infinitesimal
significance.
There is no good reason to avoid running your antenna coax
past the fuel pump.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Jumper for Video Camcorder |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I want to create a jumper to go from the co-pilot's audio jack to the
>microphone input in a camcorder. I have stereo audio jacks. Can you
>point me to a schematic that would illustrate how to make a jumper with
>an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to mono), then
>have the smaller mic jack on the other end? Is this feasible? I think
>the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the engine
>when videoing in flight. I am assuming that the audio output will not
>be too much for the mic input on the camcorder? Can you just plug a
>mono audio jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right
>channels?
here's how I would do it.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/micadapt.jpg
You'll have to experiment for the right value of R.
10 ohms is a good starting point. Make adjustments
in 50% increments. If too weak, try 15, 22, 33, 47
ohms, etc. If to strong, drop to 7.5, 4.7, 3.3, etc.
Using small resistors, the whole network can be contained
inside the shell of the headset plug.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs |
<... a good pilot will reconsider runway length and conditions and go to another
airport in case
the approach speed is too high with only partially extended flaps ...>
Flaps on GA airplanes are not that big a deal. And any good pilot knows that if
his flaps won't
deploy, he can make the approach no-flap and shut down the engine coming over the
fence. His
rollout will be less than if he had flaps. Of course, if this is actually necessary,
after he
fixes his flaps, his takeoff performance will be marginal indeed.
Just a theory ... Jim S.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III CBs" wrote:
CBs
>
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Stick-shaker for stall warning |
Friends,
I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
vibrating plane, however.
Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
this will be frequency dependent.
I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
it from an angle of attack instrument.
Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
forward to your comments.
Jim Foerster
Friends,
I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a
central
control stick. I am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as
used by
military and commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the
"appropriate" speed and driving an eccentric weight should work.
The tiny
pager motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful
in
a vibrating plane, however.
Could you professional pilots give me an idea as
to how
far the stick moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that
8-20 Hz
would be optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the
motion
needed as this will be frequency dependent.
I would drive this motor from either a
microswitch
attached to a vane projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as
is used
by many commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else
drive
it froman angle of attack instrument.
Although auditory warning from AoA devices is
good, the
stall is the greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of
flight. The warning should not be subtle and should use several
modalities. I look forward to your comments.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51(at)c2i.net> |
Hi!
I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
If so where can I buy it?
I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up
there.
Regards
Tore S Bristol
Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
FEW TF 51
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
Tore,
Check out http://www.aeroelectric.com/, the book you need is the Aero
Electric Connection, contains lots of practical advice, it is here
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html. Also check the schedule of
weekend seminars that Bob offers, they are excellent.
Tony
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. I wouldn't
want
one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be driven by AoA,
so why
not just display/sound off Alpha?
Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S.
James Foerster wrote:
>
> Friends,
>
> I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
> am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
> commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
> speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
> motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
> vibrating plane, however.
>
> Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
> moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
> optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
> this will be frequency dependent.
>
> I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
> projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
> commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
> it from an angle of attack instrument.
>
> Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
> greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
> warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
> forward to your comments.
>
> Jim Foerster
>
> <
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
This is a "must have" book for building a plane;
Go to Bob Knuckoll's "AeroElectric" web site
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
and order it ($30.50).
Updates to keep it current are there too.
Neil
At 04:36 AM 10/11/03, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi!
> I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
>If so where can I buy it?
>I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up
>there.
>
>Regards
>Tore S Bristol
>Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
>FEW TF 51
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
Stick shakers are common in many aircraft to provide an "artificial" stall
warning when the "natural" stall warning characteristics of the aircraft are
deemed to provide insufficient awareness of high angle of attack situations.
The F-104 most definitely had a shaker and I suspect the F-4 had one as well
although modern fighter aircraft with computer tailored flight controls have
less need of such devices.. A stick shaker is used on many transport
category aircraft such as the Dehavilland Dash-8 (which I fly now).
The objective of the shaker is not to physically move the stick (or control
column) but to vibrate it back and forth as a tactile vice audible or visual
(flashing light, etc.) stall warning. Grasp the stick firmly and it won't
move much at all. The frequency of the vibration on the D-8 is fairly high,
perhaps 120-180 hertz, as far as I can tell. The mechanism proposed sounds
about right - tune the speed of the motor to adjust the frequency of the
vibration and the amount of eccentric weight to adjust the intensity of the
vibration to taste. You might want to think about failure modes and provide
a "shaker disable" circuit breaker to pull in the event of a "failed on"
situation. Most commercial installations also provide a test feature to
inject a high AOA signal into the system at some point to test the wiring
and motor. This is often a certification issue and the system has to be
checked on a regular basis in service.
This sort of complication would certainly be avoided by a commercial
manufacturer if possible. Suggest you check out the stall characteristics of
the Jabiru first to see what the natural stall warnings characteristics are
like and if a shaker will add anything worthwhile.
Jim Oke
Winnipeg, Canada
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sower" <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning
>
> I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. I
wouldn't want
> one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be driven by
AoA, so why
> not just display/sound off Alpha?
> Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S.
>
> James Foerster wrote:
>
> >
> > Friends,
> >
> > I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
> > am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
> > commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
> > speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
> > motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
> > vibrating plane, however.
> >
> > Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
> > moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
> > optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
> > this will be frequency dependent.
> >
> > I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
> > projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
> > commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
> > it from an angle of attack instrument.
> >
> > Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
> > greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
> > warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
> > forward to your comments.
> >
> > Jim Foerster
> >
> > <
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotorway Massive Failure |
| From: | Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com> |
Who know's, that might have been me :)
The Rotorway electrical failure is rare, but I suppose not unexpected
due to the rather random design of it's electrical system. One of the
problems with the wiring harness Rotorway provides is the sheer number
of molex connectors. Every thing is wired through at least one, some
have two or more in the circuit. The Fadecs have a complicated factory
supplied wiring harness that's integrated into the ship wiring. The
alternator feed is provided by two different size wires, one to the
battery and another up to the overhead switch panel. Why they did it
that way is unknown. Each of the alternator feeds has a (RW supplied)
fuse inline at the alternator. I bought the upgrade to a 51 amp
alternator but think the fuses were designed for the smaller 30 amp
one. I need to check this. The battery feed goes to the overhead switch
panel.
Some of the changes I've made: There were only 7 fuses in the entire
ship which I've now expanded to 15 c/b's. I have added a main
battery/alternator breaker and a bus bar that connects all the Fadecs,
Fuel Pumps and Ignition modules. All nonessential systems (lights,
strobes, radios) are on separate busses with individual c/b's. I added
your OV module to my alternator switch and breaker but haven't tested
it as I am only now preparing for my first start.
The only way I see a total electrical failure on my ship is to blow the
main battery breaker (50 amp) or a battery contactor failure. If the
contactor failed while the engine was running I'd still have alternator
output to the bus. I'd like to further isolate the essential bus and
have a backup electrical source, but weight is a major factor for not
having a second battery. The fadec is very sophisticated, and
automatically switchs to a backup, but both need 10 volts minimum to
function, or they shut down and the engine dies. Any suggestions would
be appreciated.
Vince Ackerman
(Contactor and wiring schematic sent to Bob via USPS on Friday)
On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 11:13 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> him a long time ago).
>
> I seem to recall having a conversation about this airplane
> some years ago. I can't recall if it was a builder or a factory
> rep. I might even still have the drawings in a file somewhere.
> As I recall, the conversation didn't go very far . . . after
> the first few exchanges of questions and recommendations, the
> guy at the other end of the conversation didn't like what
> he was hearing and quit participating . . .
>
> Let's revisit the system here on the List . . .
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers,
and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well
designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because
other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a
visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to
receive the warning.
I'm not sure exactly what frequency the stick shakers I'm familiar
with work on, but I suspect it is somewhere in the 10-20 hz range.
You need to pick a frequency that cannot be confused with any natural
buffet that your aircraft might have in some parts of the flight
envelope.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>
>I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of.
>I wouldn't want
>one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be
>driven by AoA, so why
>not just display/sound off Alpha?
>Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S.
>
>James Foerster wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Friends,
>>
>> I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
>> am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
>> commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
>> speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
>> motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
>> vibrating plane, however.
>>
>> Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
>> moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
>> optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
>> this will be frequency dependent.
>>
>> I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
>> projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
>> commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
>> it from an angle of attack instrument.
>>
>> Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
>> greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
>> warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
>> forward to your comments.
>>
>> Jim Foerster
>>
> > <
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Melvinke(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
-------------------------------1065891852
Go to and download. Outstanding value!
Kenneth Melvin, N51KX
-------------------------------1065891852
tutf-8">
Go to aeroelectric.com and download. Outstanding value!
Kenneth Melvin, N51KX
-------------------------------1065891852--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric Connection |
Glad to help. The URL for Bob's business is http://www.aeroelectric.com/
and the specific link to the book is at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html with a page to buy the book
at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html (where you need to
scroll down almost to the bottom of the page to find the "Publications"
item - both a printed version and CD-ROM version are for sale there.
By browsing around at the site you may find enough information on-line to
make it unnecessary to actually buy the book. However, I still recommend
the book, because he explains what can best be described as his "philosophy"
of aircraft electrical systems, and I think it is important to know why we
do things a certain way.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tore S.
Bristol
Subject:
Hi!
I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
If so where can I buy it?
I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up
there.
Regards
Tore S Bristol
Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
FEW TF 51
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Duplicates and Extra HTML in List Messages Solved!!! |
| From: | "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com, yak-list(at)matronics.com
Dear Listers,
Well, I apologize. I discovered today why the extra HTML tags and odd
repeating of messages was occuring. About 1-2 weeks ago I was
troubleshooting a different problem and had commented out the section in
the incoming message filter that strips out MIME enclosures and other HTML
data. Duh, then I forgot to put it back! Other filters were stripping
out a good deal of the stuff, but still some stuff was getting through!
I've reinstated the MIME filter and things should be back to normal as of
about 11am pdt on Saturday. Again, my apologies!!!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
by the way, you'll need a 3-ring binder for it. They are commonly available
in the US, I think in Europe you'll only find 2 or 4 ring binders.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51(at)c2i.net>
>
>
> Hi!
> I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
> If so where can I buy it?
> I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it
up
> there.
>
> Regards
> Tore S Bristol
> Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
> FEW TF 51
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: noise in headset when transmitting |
>
>In my aircraft, when I transmit on my comm radio, I hear a loud squeal in
>my headset. The avionics shop said it's due to the close proximity of the
>antenna to my headset, and the wire that goes across from one side of the
>headset to the other picks up the signal. The airplane is all wood, and
>the antenna is behind the back seat, inside the fuselage.
>Is there anything that can be done to get rid of this annoying noise?
First you need to confirm whether or not the avionics shop's off-hand
diagnosis is correct. To do this, you need to have a way to "transmit"
without actually radiating any signal into the air close to your
headset. One way is to build a temporary antenna on a stand made of
wood with 25' or so of coax on it so that you can plug it into
your radio but locate it some distance away from the potential victim
(in this case - the headset). Another way is to fabricate a
"dummy load" like that shown in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/DummyLoad.jpg
Unhook your antenna coax and put this guy on instead. You won't
be able to hear or talk very far on your radio . . . a hand-held
with a rubber duck on it will talk and listen to the radio but the
tower across the field and other airplanes in the vicinity won't
hear you.
See if the noise goes away while transmitting on the remote
antenna or dummy load.
What kind of headsets do you have. Are they noise cancelling
and have some associated electronics unique to the headsets?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
In a message dated 10/11/2003 8:49:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
>
> I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers,
> and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well
> designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because
> other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a
> visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to
> receive the warning.
>
If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you
probably should quit flying. Geez .........
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
In a message dated 10/11/03 5:32:58 PM Central Daylight Time,
Benford2(at)aol.com writes:
If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you
probably should quit flying. Geez .........
Good Afternoon Benford2,
While you may not want a stick shaker on your airplane, there are many
airplanes where the stick shaker has been shown to be helpful, possibly even
critical, in advising the pilot of a situation that could become dangerous. There
are many airplanes that are beyond the point of reasonable recovery technique by
the time any aerodynamic buffet occurs.
The Boeing 727 is one such airplane. While I doubt that very many homebuilt
aircraft will have stall characteristics similar to those of a 727, there may
well be aircraft where the stick shaker does aid the pilot in stall
recognition.
I think you are being very shallow when you unequivocally tell people that
they should NOT be flying if they want a stall warning device on their airplane.
The whole idea of the movement is that we should be able to build that which
best fits our individual purposes.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
In a message dated 10/11/2003 4:47:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
>
> The Boeing 727 is one such airplane. While I doubt that very many homebuilt
>
> aircraft will have stall characteristics similar to those of a 727, there
> may
> well be aircraft where the stick shaker does aid the pilot in stall
> recognition.
>
> I think you are being very shallow when you unequivocally tell people that
> they should NOT be flying if they want a stall warning device on their
> airplane.
>
> The whole idea of the movement is that we should be able to build that which
>
> best fits our individual purposes.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
I respect your comments, but
if a pilot does not recogonize lazy control imputs and lets the wings stall
they need to practice more on slow flight. I am sure some aircrafts are
sensitive to stalls and the 72 is one of them but evey time I have ever heard of
stick shaker going off it is on the cockpit voice recorder the NTSB plays a few
days after a pilot kills himself and all the others on board. In all my years
of flying the ONLY time I have ever heard the stall warning buzzer go off was
during BFR's doing stalls. Tell me Ol Bob. in what situations have the stick
shaker helped you out on your flying skills?? This is how I feel so please
respect me for my comments. Peace....
Ben Haas N801BH. Jackson Hole Wy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
In a message dated 10/11/03 6:36:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
Benford2(at)aol.com writes:
This is how I feel so please
respect me for my comments. Peace....
Good Evening Ben,
I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I just
don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise have no
right to fly.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
PS I don't believe I have ever been "saved" by a stick shaker, but it has
never hurt me either!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Slobovia Outernational Airport Party Invitation |
Hello all,
Please remember your invitation to our party one week from today at
Slobovia Outernational, just north of Jackson MS.
You are all cordially invited to the next flyin
lunch/supper/all-weekend-long hangar party at Slobovia Outernational
Airport, 10 miles north of Jackson MS on October 17-19, 2003. If flying
fun isn't enough reason to party, it's wedding anniversary time for two
families here, so come & help us celebrate.
Overnighters are welcome any time after noon on Friday, and are welcome
to stay through Sunday. Bring your bed roll and if desired, a tent. We
have lots of indoor floor space & even more outdoor tent space, so come
on down!
We had a great turnout in July with about 45 planes. We are hoping for
at least twice that number in October.
The noon meal on Saturday will again be 'pulled pork', thanks to the
wonderful wives here in our strange corner of the universe. If you can
stay for the hangar party Saturday night, we plan on having 'Chili &
Blues' with a live band for entertainment. Bring your dancin' shoes.
You can get info about our airport at airnav.com
http://www.airnav.com/airport/MS71
Update: runway length is now 4800 feet.
Disclaimer: Slobovia is a private airport. Pilots operate at their own
risk.
If you need driving directions or more info, feel free to email me at
cengland(at)netdoor.com
or call at 601-879-9596.
FAA Identifier: MS71
Lat/Long: 32-29-42.508N / 090-17-34.325W
32-29.70847N / 090-17.57208W
32.4951411 / -90.2928681
(estimated)
Elevation: 250 ft. / 76 m (estimated)
Variation: 03E (1985)
From city: 1 mile N of POCAHONTAS, MS
Airport Operations
Airport use: Private use. Permission required prior to landing
Sectional chart: MEMPHIS
UNICOM: 122.75
Runway Information
Runway 15/33
Dimensions: 3540 x 80 ft. / 1079 x 24 m
Surface: turf
RUNWAY 15 RUNWAY 33
Traffic pattern: left left
Obstructions: 70 ft. trees, 200 ft. from approach end of 33
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
Benford2(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 10/11/2003 8:49:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
>khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>>I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers,
>>and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well
>>designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because
>>other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a
>>visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to
>>receive the warning.
>>
>>
>>
>
>If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you
>probably should quit flying. Geez .........
>
hmmmm....
wonder if there are any airline or military pilots on this list......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: T-2000 connect |
>
>Can anyone please confirm that the Microair T-2000 is NOT a "strobe"
>type transponder and that I therefore connect the pink wire (strobe)
>from my AK-350 encoder to ground? Couldn't find anything in the
>archives & just wanting to be sure!
>
>Thanks!
That is correct. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/T2000-ACK350_Wiring.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
>
>In a message dated 10/11/2003 5:51:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
>BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
>
>
> > Evening Ben,
> >
> > I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I
> just
> >
> > don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise
> have
> > no
> > right to fly.
> >
> > Happy Skies,
> >
>
>I see your point and I retract the comment. My main concern is that someone
>fabricates a stick shaker to warn them they forgot to look at the airspeed
>indicator and it jams up the controls and kills them. Anything connected to a
>flight control should be bulletproof and most homebrewed stick shakers "
>could"
>hurt someone. This is the case of the medicine that is worse then the
>disease.. And this is coming from a Zenith 801 builder who is a few hours
>away from
>flying a experimental with a V-8 Ford where a Lycosarus is supposed to go. I
>might need some therapy too....
>
>It is time for an adult beverage, hot tub and NASCAR on the tube. Life is
>good in the Hole.
The Lears have stick shakers, and several if not all of the
Raytheon jets have them too. They're simple motors bolted to the
back of the control column with eccentric flyweights. The
Lears have two levels of stick shaking intensity controlled
by voltage applied to the motor.
They're activated at setpoints in the AOA indicator system.
Stall warning sensors that drive lights and horns in GA SE
aircraft could be adapted to activate a stick shaker as well.
You could add one to the stick of an OBAM aircraft
with very little risk to the control system since it simply
"rides" on the stick and has no ability to inject or inhibit
control forces.
You're looking for something on the order of 5-10Hz for the "shake"
frequency or 300 to 600 rpm. Most ungeared hobby motors run in
the thousands of rpms and would require some voltage adjustment
scheme for setting the desired rate/intensity.
Theres a geared motor rated at 300 rpm at 12v with an operating
range of 6-24. Specs are found at:
http://www.jameco.com/jameco/Products/ProdDS/164785.pdf
and the critters sell for about $24
I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning
tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do.
After doing the obligatory stall demonstrations for the
flight instructors at biennial time, I'm always amazed that
anyone can get themselves into that condition "accidently".
None the less, if a stick shaker is desired, it's not only
possible but not terribly hard to do either.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
In a message dated 10/11/2003 9:07:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> They're activated at setpoints in the AOA indicator system.
> Stall warning sensors that drive lights and horns in GA SE
> aircraft could be adapted to activate a stick shaker as well.
> You could add one to the stick of an OBAM aircraft
> with very little risk to the control system since it simply
> "rides" on the stick and has no ability to inject or inhibit
> control forces.
>
> You're looking for something on the order of 5-10Hz for the "shake"
> frequency or 300 to 600 rpm. Most ungeared hobby motors run in
> the thousands of rpms and would require some voltage adjustment
> scheme for setting the desired rate/intensity.
>
>
This sounds very safe then. You still would have to couple the homemade smart
box to the AOA . I agree with Bob, the tone thing is the simple way to
go.But, we are building experimentals so all is fair.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
Bob wrote,
"I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning
tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do."
Bob, it's a good question. My plane is a canvas for my ideas--oops, just came
back from a chick-flick my wife wanted to see. I mean my plane is a flying test
bed, and the stick-shaker may improve safety because it works without the
headset on, it uses a sensory input that is hard to ignore, and the greatest threat
to me is landing in the low and slow configuration. Why not just watch
the AoA indicator? Well, my eyes are mainly out of the cockpit when landing,
looking for traffic and my position in the pattern. Making that turn from downwind
to base to final after a long flight to an unfamiliar airport can get me
banked more than I might like. Add some wind shear, and traffic distraction,
and the shaker might be worth it if it went off once in ten years. I agree that
the audio warning might be enough, and that is why I've asked for the opinions
of pilots with more experience than mine for their thoughts: is this worth
doing? If audio stall warning were good enough, why would both commercial
and military planes have it? Figured it was worth some thought, anyway.
Ben Ford is correct about not jeopardizing the control system with add-ons. I
would add this device at the top of the stick, mounted on two standoffs, looking
like a large trigger guard.
Jim Foerster
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carl Coulter <coulter(at)gci.net> |
| Subject: | RE:Stick-shaker for stall warning |
Motors? Eccentrics? We are electro-whizzies ;-)
How about a ball bearing in a non-ferrous tube with a coil at each end?
Drive the coils with a multivibrator ckt to rattle the ball back and forth.
I'm afraid this isn't my brilliance. About 25 years ago I worked with a guy
that had a patent to do this. He had gotten a job offer from an airplane
outfit for a lot of money. He was certain the offer stemmed from them
wanting his patent.
I don't remember him describing it other than "rattling a steel ball with an
electromagnet". Concept is simple - an Al tube with a coil in a plastic
bobbin on each end - maybe a steel slug glued in the tube under each
bobbin - appropriate sized ball bearing in the center.
I don't know if his idea ever went anywhere.
carl
*****************************
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning
Friends,
I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
speed and driving an eccentric weight should work.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
Jim,
How about Piper's elegant solution -- a large round light on the panel next
to the airspeed indicator. It sounds facile to make such a trivial
suggestion, but it works wonderfully well and couldn't be any less expensive
to make. A 1/2" round red light is surprisingly noticeable. It seems as
though you would never see it, but it really does light up well. On the PA28
I fly, it's tucked under the coaming (is that how it's spelt?), and so is in
shade, which helps its visibility, I suppose. Even on a summer's day it
sticks out like a sore thumb. I've gone with the same indicator on my
project.
Hope this helps.
Nev
--
Jodel D150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning
> Bob, it's a good question. My plane is a canvas for my ideas--oops, just
came back from a chick-flick my wife wanted to see. I mean my plane is a
flying test bed, and the stick-shaker may improve safety because it works
without the headset on, it uses a sensory input that is hard to ignore, and
the greatest threat to me is landing in the low and slow configuration. Why
not just watch the AoA indicator? Well, my eyes are mainly out of the
cockpit when landing, looking for traffic and my position in the pattern.
Making that turn from downwind to base to final after a long flight to an
unfamiliar airport can get me banked more than I might like. Add some wind
shear, and traffic distraction, and the shaker might be worth it if it went
off once in ten years. I agree that the audio warning might be enough, and
that is why I've asked for the opinions of pilots with more experience than
mine for their thoughts: is this worth doing? If audio stall warning were
good enough, !
> why would both commercial and military planes have it? Figured it was
worth some thought, anyway.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
I think you're right to install an audio stall warning driven by an accurate, reliable
AoA. Like I said before, I don't know of any tactical military planes
who have it. It contradicts the mission of tactical jets (back in my day) since
critical parts of the mission were done at high AoA, on the fringes of buffet.
The F-104 might well have had a stick shaker if, as I heard, it suffered
from sudden departure into an unrecoverable flat spin, but that's an exception.
An audio warning that would keep you away from the ubiquitous "approach turn
stall" would be a very reasonable safety device. I think a stick shaker is
a bit much.
Accurate and Reliable AoA being the key words here .... Jim S.
James Foerster wrote:
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:Stick-shaker for stall warning |
<... a ball bearing in a nonferrous tube ...>
How about a little horn, available at the shack (or perhaps even Wal-Mart) for
about ten bucks.
Then we could get back to addressing actual problems ... Jim S.
Carl Coulter wrote:
>
> Motors? Eccentrics? We are electro-whizzies ;-)
> u
> How about a ball bearing in a non-ferros tube with a coil at each end?
> Drive the coils with a multivibrator ckt to rattle the ball back and forth.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
| From: | Joel Harding <cajole76(at)ispwest.com> |
Ben,
Didn't you ever have wind shear training? The stick shaker was
invaluable in flying the max lift profile in a downburst or wind shear
scenario. Fortunately I never had the opportunity to put that training
to use.
Joel Harding
On Saturday, Oct 11, 2003, at 17:35 America/Denver, Benford2(at)aol.com
wrote:
>
>>
> I respect your comments, but
> if a pilot does not recogonize lazy control imputs and lets the wings
> stall
> they need to practice more on slow flight. I am sure some aircrafts are
> sensitive to stalls and the 72 is one of them but evey time I have
> ever heard of
> stick shaker going off it is on the cockpit voice recorder the NTSB
> plays a few
> days after a pilot kills himself and all the others on board. In all
> my years
> of flying the ONLY time I have ever heard the stall warning buzzer go
> off was
> during BFR's doing stalls. Tell me Ol Bob. in what situations have the
> stick
> shaker helped you out on your flying skills?? This is how I feel so
> please
> respect me for my comments. Peace....
>
> Ben Haas N801BH. Jackson Hole Wy.
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
In a message dated 10/12/2003 9:09:33 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
cajole76(at)ispwest.com writes:
>
> Ben,
> Didn't you ever have wind shear training? The stick shaker was
> invaluable in flying the max lift profile in a downburst or wind shear
> scenario. Fortunately I never had the opportunity to put that training
> to use.
>
> Joel Harding
>
>
My wind shear training consisted of recognizing the potential of wind shear,
keep one hand on the throttle, one on the yoke to push forward and one big eye
on the air speed indicator. All stick shakers,AOA's and other devices get
their imput from air speed or air speed differential from the top of the wing to
the bottom of it. My point is simply. why have a series of devices to monitor
a symptom when the human brain can do it much faster from the initial problem
when recognized properly. This whole topic keeps my mind flashing back to that
Airbus that was doing a low pass in France showing off its GREAT fly by wire,
everything is automatic, who the hell needs a pilot, this bells and whistles
plane can do it all attitude. If I remember it correctly, that thing settled
down in trees at the end of the runway with two of the MOST capable pilots
unable to do a damn thing to stop it. My best training was when my instructor
covered up the airspeed indicator and told me to feel out the control imputs and
see how lazy they get with slower air flowing over them. To this day I can fly
the plane without looking at the ASI and guestimate within 3--5 knots of
indicated by just the feel of the planes controls. The human mind is a wonderful
thing ya know... Faster then the best warning devices to date. As soon as a
pilot starts depending on bells and whistles instead of common sense there will
probably be an accident.
Ben Haas.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
>
>
>Bob wrote,
>"I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning
> tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do."
>
>Bob, it's a good question. My plane is a canvas for my ideas--oops, just
>came back from a chick-flick my wife wanted to see. I mean my plane is a
>flying test bed, and the stick-shaker may improve safety because it works
>without the headset on, it uses a sensory input that is hard to ignore,
>and the greatest threat to me is landing in the low and slow
>configuration. Why not just watch the AoA indicator? Well, my eyes are
>mainly out of the cockpit when landing, looking for traffic and my
>position in the pattern. Making that turn from downwind to base to final
>after a long flight to an unfamiliar airport can get me banked more than I
>might like. Add some wind shear, and traffic distraction, and the shaker
>might be worth it if it went off once in ten years. I agree that
>the audio warning might be enough, and that is why I've asked for the
>opinions of pilots with more experience than mine for their thoughts: is
>this worth doing? If audio stall warning were good enough, !
>why would both commercial and military planes have it? Figured it was
>worth some thought, anyway.
Sure . . . but let's consider the airplane characteristics that
drive such requirements. First, how does the airplane behave at
the edge of stall? Some aircraft I've flown do quite a bit of their
own shaking. Other's didn't have enough up-elevator authority to
push AOA past stall. Still others had such pronounced pitch-up
deck-angles as to make one wonder why the airplane didn't break
long ago. Some airplanes would break easy, mush nose-nose down
and then recover only to break again . . . loosing altitude
slowly in something akin to an aquarium performance of a porpoise.
The airplanes that get the system designers attention are those
that break quickly and/or are delicately roll-balanced and
are likely to sneak up on the unwary pilot in vicious ways.
How does your airplane behave? Do you plan to do a lot of low-altitude
slow flight (like pipeline or power line patrol)? Do you plan to
operate out of short and/or obstructed fields where max performance
takeoff and landing techniques will be routinely employed? If any
of these answers drive you toward a decision for extra-ordinary
stall warning systems, perhaps your airplane is a good candidate
for a true AOA indicator systems and any attendant warnings it
might provide.
I can't remember the last time I heard the stall warning
go off on any airplane I've rented recently . . . and
certainly if it did, it was in the flare a few feet
above the runway. For the kinds of airplanes I have access
to and the way I use them, I consider a stall warning
system completely unnecessary. If I found a stall warning
system to be inoperative at pre-flight, I would not cancel
the flight.
Irrespective of the range of comments, suggestions and
opinions presented on this topic over the past few days,
it's a combination of performance of your airplane combined
with your skills in the operating environment that you plan
to work that drive the considered decision and elegant
solution. I would suggest that your airplane has few
performance characteristics in common with air transport
or fighter aircraft. If the designer was doing his job,
benign handling characteristics in slow flight was a
goal. I'd suggest you get the airplane flying, and
during the 40-hours of obligatory fly-off, go find
out how your airplane behaves at 3000 feet. If it
scares the socks off you at altitude, then the exercise
of plan-B is very much in order.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
>
>I think you're right to install an audio stall warning driven by an
>accurate, reliable AoA. Like I said before, I don't know of any
>tactical military planes who have it. It contradicts the mission of
>tactical jets (back in my day) since critical parts of the mission
>were done at high AoA, on the fringes of buffet. The F-104 might
>well have had a stick shaker if, as I heard, it suffered from sudden
>departure into an unrecoverable flat spin, but that's an exception.
>An audio warning that would keep you away from the ubiquitous
>"approach turn stall" would be a very reasonable safety device. I
>think a stick shaker is a bit much.
>Accurate and Reliable AoA being the key words here .... Jim S.
>
Tactical military jets have a very different set of mission
requirements than most homebuilts. And the pilots have much more
training than many general aviation pilots, and they fly more hours
per year in their aircraft than many general aviation pilots do. So
I'm not sure we should use tactical military jets as a yardstick to
see whether a stick shaker makes sense in a homebuilt aircraft.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise in Headset |
>Bob,
>
> I've posted this meesage twice to the Aeroelectric Matronics list, and
> I see it there, but haven't seen any response. Not that I've earned your
> immediate jump-when-I-say-jump response by any means, but seeing how you
> quickly respond to others makes me wonder if you're seeing this. Or do I
> owe you money?
> Please respond either to the list or offline to me at
> pedroagua(at)aol.com if you get this.
>
>Thanks,
>Pete Waters
>(in Watsonville in November)
No, you don't owe me money. My time to work the AeroElectric-List comes
in variable sized pieces. Some replies can be generated in less than a
minute,
others take some time to consider and craft a reply. In order NOT to fall
hopelessly behind, I always start with the most recent posts and work
my way backwards in time. Your question was lengthy and needed some time
to consider, hence on a nice, quiet Sunday morning, I've got a chunk
of time sufficient to the task . . .
>Bob,
>
> Apologies if this is a duplicate post; I seem to have trouble getting
> this out.
> I'm starting to develop an electrical problem in my RV-4 and I'm hoping
> you can help me diagnose it.
> I bought the RV-4 (completed) last year. It was built in 1988 and I'm
> the fourth owner. It's a solid airplane, but the documentation is thin
> and from the logbooks it appears that the electrical stuff (lights,
> radios) were added piecemeal over the plane's first few years, so the
> electrical system is a bit tangled. For example, my nav light circuit
> breaker kept popping. I finally figured out that the builder / modifier
> has three 2-amp bulbs (6 amps) going through a 5-amp CB. So, after
> consulting the wire selection graph, I replaced the 5A CB with a 10A
> CB. Worked great.
> However, on my next flight, I started hearing a whine in my
> headset. More of a high-pitched tone, actually. I realized that it was
> a solid tone that was being cut off intermittently, making it sounding a
> lot like Morse from an VOR. As I returned from a cross country it got
> louder and became almost constant. The whine / tone is present with the
> radios off, strobes off, and alternator off, although I didn't think to
> pull the breakers on those circuits.
Pulling the breakers would probably not have made any difference.
Turning the systems off with the panel mounted controls is sufficient.
> I don't hear it on deck with all the avionics running off the RG
> battery. Inflight I can hear it in the background during intercom use
> and radio reception. It disappears briefly after a radio transmission and
> then returns after a few seconds. The plane has a VDO analog voltmeter,
> no ammeter. ( I plan to install an VA-1A EI volt/ammeter shortly.) As
> I heard the tone inflight I immediately noticed that the voltage was
> increasing to about 15.5 V and fluctuating there for a while. Then it
> settled down to 14.5 V or so. The
> problem comes and goes and is not entirely repeatable. The voltmeter
> reads 14.0 volts on deck with just the battery on and the engine not
> running (no alternator), so I think the VDO voltmeter is accurate.
Battery only operations seldom exceed 13.0 volts. Most
RG batteries have an open circuit voltage of 12.9 volts
at room temperature. If your voltmeter is saying "14.0", then
it's off by at least 1.0 volt.
> Also, perhaps related and perhaps not, the LORAN started telling me a
> few weeks back, before I heard any of this headset noise, that I was in
> the Southern Hemisphere when I was flying across Oregon. I had thought
> the LORAN had just died due to age, and I was buying a GPS anyway, so
> I've just turned it off and planned to remove it.
Okay.
> Initially I was thinking the obvious thought that the alternator's
> going. After reading the Aeroelectric Connnetion I'm wondering if it
> might not be the voltage regulator. Because the plane has so little
> documentation, I don't know the specifics of the alternator at all or how
> old it is, just that it's been working well so far. My A&P found nothing
> wrong with it at the last annual 60 hours ago. I'm wondering if the
> impending alternator / regulator failure is putting out RF that's getting
> into the headset and was jamming the LORAN. (It turns out that the LORAN
> had locked onto the wrong nav solution -- that whole "two solutions to
> the quadratic equation" thing. Letting it sit on deck for a few minutes
> with the engine off allowed it to "find itself" correctly back in
> California. But I'm still wondering if the initial event of it getting
> lost wasn't related to LORAN signal jamming
>from the alternator / regulator.)
If the noise is present with the alternator OFF, then I don't
see how this system can be involved. Does the tone vary in pitch
with engine rpm . . . alternator generated noises do vary in pitch
with rpm and they go away when the alternator is turned off.
> Also, I noticed in flight that with the electrical system fully loaded
> up, the voltmeter needle also starts rapidly fluctuating at
> 14.5-15.5V. I see this when I turn on the landing light. Due to the
> lack of documentation I have no idea how many total amps are actually
> flowing through the system, so I'm wondering if turning on the landing
> lights actually
>puts the plane's total current draw above the rated output of the
>alternator. Is fluctuating system voltage a sign of that?
No, it's more likely a separate problem, here's a post I
did on this topic a few weeks ago:
------------------------------------------------------
>I felt pretty certain that if you recommended hooking the regulator right
>to the back of the alternator, and then followed the appropriate
>connection you knew things would settle down nicely. Well, they did just
>that! The ammeter was rock steady to the charging side, and the voltage
>read a solid 14.4
>Now the follow up to get these same results once the voltage regulator is
>reinstalled, and not hanging off the alternator. The other thing I noted
>was that when hooked up in this manner the alternator side of the split
>master was not working, but I'm sure you knew that would happen.
>
>Let me know what's next, and thanks!
Okay, this experiment was important to tell
us that the components were okay and that you
didn't have a flaky regulator or bouncing brushes
in the alternator.
I'd start at the bus (did I ask whether you're
using fuseblocks or breakers?) and check to see
that you have good terminals, at least 20AWG wire
all the way to the regulator's "A/S" terminals.
If the regulator is mounted on the firewall,
grounding isn't an issue for the regulator . . .
and seldom does grounding affect stability . . .
only voltage setting.
Also, you mentioned that the "alternator side
of the split master was not working" . . . I'd
bet that MOST of your circuit resistance is
happening in that switch. I have a plastic
bag full of perfectly good looking split-rocker
switches that were sent to me after putting
in a new one cured a bouncy ammeter complaint.
This has occurred in countless certified ships
and a few OBAM aircraft. This doesn't mean that
the split-rocker is necessarily a "bad" product
(it's made by Carling and uses the same guts
as the S700 series toggle switches B&C sells).
Regulators are sensitive to small amounts of
resistance in the lines between bus and regulator.
I had one builder who mounted his regulator within
a few inches of the bus, tied the A/S terminals
directly to the breaker with short, single,
solid wire and put his alternator control switch
in series with the field wire. He added crowbar
ov protection to the breaker and ended up with
a combination that would probably be stable over
the lifetime of the airplane.
In older production Cessnas, I think I counted
20 some odd crimps, connections and spring-pressure
maintained metal-metal contacts between bus and
regulator. As all of these joints age, they add
resistance to the circuit. At some point in time,
the system becomes unstable with symptoms you
have observed.
Thousands of spam-can owners have paid out $millions$
to ignorant mechanics who replaced EVERYTHING BUT
aged/compromised wiring before finally renewing the
bus-to-regulator components. In many cases, owners
have reported that replacing only the spilt-rocker
"fixed" the problem. Indeed this single component
can be a major contributor of total loop resistance.
But consider that if NEW loop resistance was on
the order of 50 milliohms and had climbed to
100 milliohms with the switch contributing
25 ohms of de-stabilizing resistance. Replacing
the switch drops total down to 75 milliohms and
the regulator is happy again . . . but not for
as long as it would be when replacing ALL
sources of age/service related resistance
in the bus-to-regulator pathway.
The obvious, elegant solution in original
design is to incorporate a regulator that separates
voltage sense wires from field current supply
wires. The LR-3 does just that. Any new regulators
I design will have separate sense wires too.
Does this suggest that the OBAM community
should rip out all their three-terminal
switchers and bolt on the LR-3? Not at all.
The automotive style regulators have for the
most part given good value but they DO have
special characteristics that only one mechanic
in 1000 understands. In the spam-can world,
ignorance is shoveled out at $thousands$ per
non-idea, in the OBAM aircraft world, we've managed to
keep those costs MUCH lower . . . and much of
it happens right here on the AeroElectric List.
> This airplane is well-built structurally and the engine's in good
> shape, but the more I look at the electrical system, the more I relaize
> that it's not quite what I'd like to see. Since avionics and lights were
> added piecemeal over the years by different people, I wouldn't be
> surprised to see as basic a mistake as an undercapacity
> alternator. (Remember the undercapacity CB I found.)
The largest Full-Up IFR load I've calculated for an
SE airplane with vacuum system is 27A, with electric
gyros it was 31A. It is unlikely that your alternator is
undersized. If the noise were present with the alternator
ON, varies pitch with rpm and goes away alternator
OFF, it might be that onset of the noise was due to failure
of a diode in the alternator which would produce a combination
of (1) reduced alternator capacity and (2) greatly increased
noise on the bus. However, since I think we're talking about
relatively fixed pitch noise with alternator OFF, this isn't
root cause of the noise.
> Lastly, I'm also noting that the whine showed up within two flight
> hours of my replacing the nav lights circuit breaker. Although I can't
> imagine why that would have an effect, I also should mention that the
> circuit breaker panel is homemade and possibly not well
> shielded; perhaps in the course of working with the panel to swap out
> the breaker I changed something.
> If you could offer any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate it.
First impressions are that this system may be suffering
from a variety of small illnesses common to electrical
system architectures used in most spam cans. These problems
can be made worse by marginal craftsmanship of the neophyte
builder and ignorant mechanic.
Just because you hear a noise in the headsets doesn't always
mean that some antagonist has jumped up to torment the victim.
It's not uncommon for a victim to have ailments that mimic
externally generated noises.
Do you hear the noise whether or not there is a radio
transmission being received? I.e., heard in the intercom
only with microphone and radio squelch gates closed? Is
the intercom battery powered or powered from the bus?
If battery powered, how about trying a new battery . . .some
audio systems become squealers when the battery voltage drops
and power source impedance goes up.
>Best,
>Pete Waters
>(registered for your class in Watsonville)
Great. See you in a few weeks! Given the range and magnitude
of problems you've noted, it's not out of line to consider
some major surgery to keep things like this from rising
out of the mud in the future. We could use your airplane
as a study topic at the Watsonville seminar. Bring all
the drawings you have.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Perry" <jperryfly(at)earthlink.net> |
Nowadays in commercial jets we practice a lot of windshear recoveries. When ground
contact is immanent we fly intermittent stick shaker to recover. The stick
shaker comes on before a stall because these airplanes don't have such nice
stall recoveries and there have been times when you need every bit of performance
you can get. So we use the stick shaker every year in the simulator (stimulator)
and hopefully never have it for real in the airplane. It does get your
attention. Probably not necessary though in a light plane with more aerodynamic
stall warning and docile stalls. But there have been a significant number
of turn to final stalls that were not recovered from. My friend was killed
like that 35 years ago.
John 757,767,MD-11 etc. Long Ez, (That's the answer just get a canard!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
| From: | caspainhower(at)aep.com |
10/12/2003 12:58:10 PM
>I'm not sure we should use tactical military jets as a yardstick to
see whether a stick shaker makes sense in a homebuilt aircraft.
I'm wondering if some people have missed the point here. I think it is a
fact not worth debating that stall warning devices have saved lives, even
if some pilots on this list are of such a high skill level as to not need
them. The question had to do with how to make a stick-shaker. As a
builder we get to make our own decision what we will ultimately use.
Having said that here's my opinion. I think it sounds like a novel idea
and would probably provide a suitable warning, but I will stick with an
audible device.
Craig S.
601 XL not quite half done.
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contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pete Waters <pedroagua(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise in Headset |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>Bob,
>
> I've posted this meesage twice to the Aeroelectric Matronics list, and
> I see it there, but haven't seen any response. Not that I've earned your
> immediate jump-when-I-say-jump response by any means, but seeing how you
> quickly respond to others makes me wonder if you're seeing this. Or do I
> owe you money?
> Please respond either to the list or offline to me at
> pedroagua(at)aol.com if you get this.
>
>Thanks,
>Pete Waters
>(in Watsonville in November)
No, you don't owe me money. My time to work the AeroElectric-List comes
in variable sized pieces. Some replies can be generated in less than a
minute,
others take some time to consider and craft a reply. In order NOT to fall
hopelessly behind, I always start with the most recent posts and work
my way backwards in time. Your question was lengthy and needed some time
to consider, hence on a nice, quiet Sunday morning, I've got a chunk
of time sufficient to the task . . .
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You're a gentleman and a scholar and I apologize for my impatience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Bob,
>
> Apologies if this is a duplicate post; I seem to have trouble getting
> this out.
> I'm starting to develop an electrical problem in my RV-4 and I'm hoping
> you can help me diagnose it.
> I bought the RV-4 (completed) last year. It was built in 1988 and I'm
> the fourth owner. It's a solid airplane, but the documentation is thin
> and from the logbooks it appears that the electrical stuff (lights,
> radios) were added piecemeal over the plane's first few years, so the
> electrical system is a bit tangled. For example, my nav light circuit
> breaker kept popping. I finally figured out that the builder / modifier
> has three 2-amp bulbs (6 amps) going through a 5-amp CB. So, after
> consulting the wire selection graph, I replaced the 5A CB with a 10A
> CB. Worked great.
> However, on my next flight, I started hearing a whine in my
> headset. More of a high-pitched tone, actually. I realized that it was
> a solid tone that was being cut off intermittently, making it sounding a
> lot like Morse from an VOR. As I returned from a cross country it got
> louder and became almost constant. The whine / tone is present with the
> radios off, strobes off, and alternator off, although I didn't think to
> pull the breakers on those circuits.
Pulling the breakers would probably not have made any difference.
Turning the systems off with the panel mounted controls is sufficient.
> I don't hear it on deck with all the avionics running off the RG
> battery. Inflight I can hear it in the background during intercom use
> and radio reception. It disappears briefly after a radio transmission and
> then returns after a few seconds. The plane has a VDO analog voltmeter,
> no ammeter. ( I plan to install an VA-1A EI volt/ammeter shortly.) As
> I heard the tone inflight I immediately noticed that the voltage was
> increasing to about 15.5 V and fluctuating there for a while. Then it
> settled down to 14.5 V or so. The
> problem comes and goes and is not entirely repeatable. The voltmeter
> reads 14.0 volts on deck with just the battery on and the engine not
> running (no alternator), so I think the VDO voltmeter is accurate.
Battery only operations seldom exceed 13.0 volts. Most
RG batteries have an open circuit voltage of 12.9 volts
at room temperature. If your voltmeter is saying "14.0", then
it's off by at least 1.0 volt.
> Also, perhaps related and perhaps not, the LORAN started telling me a
> few weeks back, before I heard any of this headset noise, that I was in
> the Southern Hemisphere when I was flying across Oregon. I had thought
> the LORAN had just died due to age, and I was buying a GPS anyway, so
> I've just turned it off and planned to remove it.
Okay.
> Initially I was thinking the obvious thought that the alternator's
> going. After reading the Aeroelectric Connnetion I'm wondering if it
> might not be the voltage regulator. Because the plane has so little
> documentation, I don't know the specifics of the alternator at all or how
> old it is, just that it's been working well so far. My A&P found nothing
> wrong with it at the last annual 60 hours ago. I'm wondering if the
> impending alternator / regulator failure is putting out RF that's getting
> into the headset and was jamming the LORAN. (It turns out that the LORAN
> had locked onto the wrong nav solution -- that whole "two solutions to
> the quadratic equation" thing. Letting it sit on deck for a few minutes
> with the engine off allowed it to "find itself" correctly back in
> California. But I'm still wondering if the initial event of it getting
> lost wasn't related to LORAN signal jamming
>from the alternator / regulator.)
If the noise is present with the alternator OFF, then I don't
see how this system can be involved. Does the tone vary in pitch
with engine rpm . . . alternator generated noises do vary in pitch
with rpm and they go away when the alternator is turned off.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'll have to check that on the next flight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Also, I noticed in flight that with the electrical system fully loaded
> up, the voltmeter needle also starts rapidly fluctuating at
> 14.5-15.5V. I see this when I turn on the landing light. Due to the
> lack of documentation I have no idea how many total amps are actually
> flowing through the system, so I'm wondering if turning on the landing
> lights actually
>puts the plane's total current draw above the rated output of the
>alternator. Is fluctuating system voltage a sign of that?
No, it's more likely a separate problem, here's a post I
did on this topic a few weeks ago:
------------------------------------------------------
>I felt pretty certain that if you recommended hooking the regulator right
>to the back of the alternator, and then followed the appropriate
>connection you knew things would settle down nicely. Well, they did just
>that! The ammeter was rock steady to the charging side, and the voltage
>read a solid 14.4
>Now the follow up to get these same results once the voltage regulator is
>reinstalled, and not hanging off the alternator. The other thing I noted
>was that when hooked up in this manner the alternator side of the split
>master was not working, but I'm sure you knew that would happen.
>
>Let me know what's next, and thanks!
Okay, this experiment was important to tell
us that the components were okay and that you
didn't have a flaky regulator or bouncing brushes
in the alternator.
I'd start at the bus (did I ask whether you're
using fuseblocks or breakers?) and check to see
that you have good terminals, at least 20AWG wire
all the way to the regulator's "A/S" terminals.
If the regulator is mounted on the firewall,
grounding isn't an issue for the regulator . . .
and seldom does grounding affect stability . . .
only voltage setting.
Also, you mentioned that the "alternator side
of the split master was not working" . . . I'd
bet that MOST of your circuit resistance is
happening in that switch. I have a plastic
bag full of perfectly good looking split-rocker
switches that were sent to me after putting
in a new one cured a bouncy ammeter complaint.
This has occurred in countless certified ships
and a few OBAM aircraft. This doesn't mean that
the split-rocker is necessarily a "bad" product
(it's made by Carling and uses the same guts
as the S700 series toggle switches B&C sells).
Regulators are sensitive to small amounts of
resistance in the lines between bus and regulator.
I had one builder who mounted his regulator within
a few inches of the bus, tied the A/S terminals
directly to the breaker with short, single,
solid wire and put his alternator control switch
in series with the field wire. He added crowbar
ov protection to the breaker and ended up with
a combination that would probably be stable over
the lifetime of the airplane.
In older production Cessnas, I think I counted
20 some odd crimps, connections and spring-pressure
maintained metal-metal contacts between bus and
regulator. As all of these joints age, they add
resistance to the circuit. At some point in time,
the system becomes unstable with symptoms you
have observed.
Thousands of spam-can owners have paid out $millions$
to ignorant mechanics who replaced EVERYTHING BUT
aged/compromised wiring before finally renewing the
bus-to-regulator components. In many cases, owners
have reported that replacing only the spilt-rocker
"fixed" the problem. Indeed this single component
can be a major contributor of total loop resistance.
But consider that if NEW loop resistance was on
the order of 50 milliohms and had climbed to
100 milliohms with the switch contributing
25 ohms of de-stabilizing resistance. Replacing
the switch drops total down to 75 milliohms and
the regulator is happy again . . . but not for
as long as it would be when replacing ALL
sources of age/service related resistance
in the bus-to-regulator pathway.
The obvious, elegant solution in original
design is to incorporate a regulator that separates
voltage sense wires from field current supply
wires. The LR-3 does just that. Any new regulators
I design will have separate sense wires too.
Does this suggest that the OBAM community
should rip out all their three-terminal
switchers and bolt on the LR-3? Not at all.
The automotive style regulators have for the
most part given good value but they DO have
special characteristics that only one mechanic
in 1000 understands. In the spam-can world,
ignorance is shoveled out at $thousands$ per
non-idea, in the OBAM aircraft world, we've managed to
keep those costs MUCH lower . . . and much of
it happens right here on the AeroElectric List.
> This airplane is well-built structurally and the engine's in good
> shape, but the more I look at the electrical system, the more I relaize
> that it's not quite what I'd like to see. Since avionics and lights were
> added piecemeal over the years by different people, I wouldn't be
> surprised to see as basic a mistake as an undercapacity
> alternator. (Remember the undercapacity CB I found.)
The largest Full-Up IFR load I've calculated for an
SE airplane with vacuum system is 27A, with electric
gyros it was 31A. It is unlikely that your alternator is
undersized. If the noise were present with the alternator
ON, varies pitch with rpm and goes away alternator
OFF, it might be that onset of the noise was due to failure
of a diode in the alternator which would produce a combination
of (1) reduced alternator capacity and (2) greatly increased
noise on the bus. However, since I think we're talking about
relatively fixed pitch noise with alternator OFF, this isn't
root cause of the noise.
> Lastly, I'm also noting that the whine showed up within two flight
> hours of my replacing the nav lights circuit breaker. Although I can't
> imagine why that would have an effect, I also should mention that the
> circuit breaker panel is homemade and possibly not well
> shielded; perhaps in the course of working with the panel to swap out
> the breaker I changed something.
> If you could offer any thoughts on this, I'd appreciate it.
First impressions are that this system may be suffering
from a variety of small illnesses common to electrical
system architectures used in most spam cans. These problems
can be made worse by marginal craftsmanship of the neophyte
builder and ignorant mechanic.
Just because you hear a noise in the headsets doesn't always
mean that some antagonist has jumped up to torment the victim.
It's not uncommon for a victim to have ailments that mimic
externally generated noises.
Do you hear the noise whether or not there is a radio
transmission being received?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yes, the noise was overlaid on received radio transmissions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I.e., heard in the intercom
only with microphone and radio squelch gates closed? Is
the intercom battery powered or powered from the bus?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
From what I've determined the electrical architecture in this plane
is such a kludge that there ARE no distinct busses. For example, in the circuit
breaker panel, the ground sides of the CBs are wired together with 14AWG
wire, CB to CB in series, rather than in parallel to a bus (which could have
been as simple as a piece of copper). As you mention in the Connection, obviously
not the way to do it. I'll show it to you in Watsonville.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If battery powered, how about trying a new battery . . .some
audio systems become squealers when the battery voltage drops
and power source impedance goes up.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yesterday I flew a short hop battery-only (alternator switch off)
and didn't hear any tone. As I recall voltage was about 13 V.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Best,
>Pete Waters
>(registered for your class in Watsonville)
Great. See you in a few weeks! Given the range and magnitude
of problems you've noted, it's not out of line to consider
some major surgery to keep things like this from rising
out of the mud in the future.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
That's what I'm concluding. I think I may be spending the next
year or so redesigning and rebuilding most of the electrical architecture in this
airplane. My initial thoughts are to start at the CB panel and properly divide
the system into main, essential, and battery busses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We could use your airplane as a study topic at the Watsonville seminar.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'll bring it if weather permits me to get into Watsonville VFR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bring all the drawings you have.
Bob . . .
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The only drawings I have are the ones I'm making through reverse engineering!
But it's certainly educational. Thanks again.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise in Headset |
Pete: I understand your frustration at the electrical stuff. It's
confusing - not like driving rivets (even visitors can point out my
smilies).
Bob very generously maintains this List for hundreds of subscribers. Once
each year he asks for a totally voluntary contribution to help him provide
the software, hardware, technical resource and archive storage for the
benefit of everyone. BTW: have you made your contribution in the last 12
months ? ?
Bob also provides a LOT of answers to people who submit questions to the
List. In doing this he is only one participant on this List, equal to the
rest of us. We all would respond to these questions - if we could. Bob
answers based on his considerable knowledge - and we all defer to his
expertise. This is his gift. If you don't like it you should drop the List
and deal with your nearest service shop on a time and materials basis. The
rest of us pay tribute to Mecca (er.. the sage of Wichita). Happy building.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
90 plus % Complete - Wiring
> > I've posted this meesage twice to the Aeroelectric Matronics list, and
> > I see it there, but haven't seen any response. Not that I've earned
your
> > immediate jump-when-I-say-jump response by any means, but seeing how you
> > quickly respond to others makes me wonder if you're seeing this. Or do
I
> > owe you money?
> > Please respond either to the list or offline to me at
> > pedroagua(at)aol.com if you get this. Thanks,
Pete Waters
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Stick-shaker for stall warning |
| From: | "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)rslcom.com.au> |
HI Jim,
I have just finished my J400, and the stall characteristics are very benign, much
better than the older 2 seater Jabiru that I have a few hundred hours in.
If you are installing the audible stall warning horn, this is more than enough
protection than you need.
If you wish to fully explore the very edge of the stall envelope near the ground,
then may I suggest a AOA system.
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: James Foerster [mailto:jmfpublic(at)comcast.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning
Friends,
I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
vibrating plane, however.
Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
this will be frequency dependent.
I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
it from an angle of attack instrument.
Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
forward to your comments.
Jim Foerster
Friends,
I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a
central
control stick. I am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as
used by
military and commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the
"appropriate" speed and driving an eccentric weight should work.
The tiny
pager motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful
in
a vibrating plane, however.
Could you professional pilots give me an idea as
to how
far the stick moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that
8-20 Hz
would be optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the
motion
needed as this will be frequency dependent.
I would drive this motor from either a
microswitch
attached to a vane projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as
is used
by many commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else
drive
it froman angle of attack instrument.
Although auditory warning from AoA devices is
good, the
stall is the greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of
flight. The warning should not be subtle and should use several
modalities. I look forward to your comments.
Jim Foerster
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Perry" <jperryfly(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Strobes and comm Ant |
Friends, I'm building an AeroCanard and my Comm Ant are in the winglets. Problem
is I have to run the strobe wiring out the same hole. Does anyone have an
opinion on this? Will it work?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise in Headset |
>
>
>Pete: I understand your frustration at the electrical stuff. It's
>confusing - not like driving rivets (even visitors can point out my
>smilies).
>
>Bob very generously maintains this List for hundreds of subscribers. Once
>each year he asks for a totally voluntary contribution to help him provide
>the software, hardware, technical resource and archive storage for the
>benefit of everyone. BTW: have you made your contribution in the last 12
>months ? ?
Actually, ALL donations go to Matt Dralle at matronics.com to support
his efforts in supplying both server space and the fine software that
runs the lists. My time spent on the lists is in exchange for
making folks aware of my products and services. I've spent $thousands$
for print ads that produced not a single phone call much less a sale.
I figure time on the list is a much better return on investment
in at least three ways:.
(1) You folks are helping me become a better designer and teacher by
providing both venue and participants willing to think outside the
box . . .
(2) The attention this list brings to my website and its
offerings makes this a hobby that does better-than-break even.
I'm amazed that certain politicians in CA paid less than a grand
in taxes on millions of income citing LOSSES on a publishing and
lecturing business . . . I'm still trying to figure out how that
works. This business wouldn't support me - at least not yet.
But in no year have I not paid taxes on profits much less
washed out taxes on my income as an engineer at RAC.
So, you see this isn't so much an act of "generosity" as
it is a symbiotic relationship where I hope every List participant
is here because they receive good value for their time and purchases.
>Bob also provides a LOT of answers to people who submit questions to the
>List. In doing this he is only one participant on this List, equal to the
>rest of us. We all would respond to these questions - if we could. Bob
>answers based on his considerable knowledge - and we all defer to his
>expertise. This is his gift. If you don't like it you should drop the List
>and deal with your nearest service shop on a time and materials basis. The
>rest of us pay tribute to Mecca (er.. the sage of Wichita). Happy building.
>Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Gently, gently my friend. I'm sure Pete now understands how this
all works and will be an active and useful participant to the
list. Lookit . . . he's signed up for my Watsonville seminar. Let's
not beat up on one of my customers now ;-)
I couldn't do this if it wasn't fun, educational and ultimately
profitable. The 'Connection is going to be my retirement business
when they boot me out of RAC (or I leave 'cause it isn't fun any
more). After a few hours of jousting with regulatory and corporate
bureaucrats in the certified world, I can't wait to open my mail
and see what kind of dragons can be slain TODAY in the OBAM
community. So for the final reason . . .
(3) the AeroElectric List provides a way for me to see real-time
progress in crafting solutions to design and maintenance problems.
If it weren't for you guys, the molasses-in-January pace of progress
in my real job might have convinced me to open a BBQ stand years
ago. At least there, when last week's customer walks back in the
door today, you know you've done a good thing for both him and
yourself. It can take years to achieve similar degrees of feedback
in aviation . . . unless you're here on the AeroElectric-List.
Let's cut Pete a little slack and put our heads together to see
if we can figure out what's wrong with his airplane. Sound's
like a real puzzlement and I'm looking forward to seeing what
it turns out to be.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Grounding fuel flow sender |
I'm rebuilding the induction system on a Lyc IO-540. There's a Floscan
transducer there already, from a previous engine instrument installation,
but it looks like I'm going to have to re-position it.
I know about keeping the fuel flow straight for as long as possible going
in and out of the transducer, but at one point I was told that the
transducer shouldn't be grounded - that it should be stepped off the engine
on insulators, and that the fuel lines before and after the transducer
should be rubber.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and I *really* don't want
anything but stainless line for fuel on that side of the firewall. Does
anyone know if this bit of advice is true, urban legend, or something inbetween?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
Hi,
I'm just starting my RV8, and due to my geographically
challenged location (mountains of Switzerland) I would
like to buy all the tools, testers, and meters that I
might for the electrical system of my RV8. I can get
almost nothing locally, except very simple household
wiring supplies.
I have purchased the 'Connection, as Bob calls it, and
am in the process of reading it. I'll be visiting the
US next week, and I'd like to pick up as much of the
stuff as I possibly can during this visit. I'll be
back in the states for Thanksgiving as well, so it's
not critical that I get everything in this visit.
Does anyone know of a list of tools, and possibly
suppliers, that I could use? I would much prefer to
err on the side of having a tool that I will never use
than to need something and to not have it, and have to
wait for it to be delivered.
I guess if I don't hear any suggestions I'll just buy
everything I can find in all the aviation catalogues,
but that seems a bit wasteful.
Thanks!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 28 Mags - 10/08/03 |
Villi / Bob,
Thanks for the info. Makes perfect sense as you describe, except... I was
planning to use the dreaded key-operated mag / starter switch hence the
thought about the relay. Perhaps its time to go for toggles instead.
Cheers.
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: <villi.seemann(at)nordea.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 28 Mags - 10/08/03
>
> Hi Neville
>
> I've just made what you want for a friend with a Druine Turbulent. One mag
switch is replaced by a DPDT. One half is used as the p-lead contact. The
other half is used as a tacho selector.
> Dont put relays into such an installation.
>
>
> Best regards
> Villi H. Seemann
> Sen. Eng. BSEE
> Telephony Team
> Infrastructure, Network
> Phone (+45) 3333 2101
> Cell ph. (+45) 2220 7690
> FAX (+45) 3333 1130
>
September 29, 2003 - October 13, 2003
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cm