AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-co

October 23, 2003 - November 03, 2003



From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: Contactors
Date: Oct 23, 2003
Bob - thanks for that. In that case I will get a S701-1. But for my education, why cant I use the VANS 3 terminal unit? Surely it is internally wired as in the top right of the attached diag. with the coil between the third terminal and the case which is grounded to the firewall? Doesnt energising the coil, terminal to case pull the contactor in, and vica versa? (If the diag. does not go through matronics, it is yours and labelled - 'OV protection for built in regulator 1.0' It appears to have the filename 'bleadov.pdf' which I suspect is your name for it.) Thanks, Steve. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors > > >Why do contactors normally have one side labelled to the battery and the >other to the load? They would appear to be a symmetrical device from the >internal diagram in Bob's book. some but not all contactors have one side of coil connected internally to the BAT terminal. Often, a manufacturer uses the same shell for all versions of the contactor and one of the fat terminals gets marked BAT even tho it's really significant for only part of the product line. >The reason for the question is that I am wiring up the firewall of an RV9a >and am using basically diags Z9 and Z24 (to control an internally regulated >alternator). Placement of the contactor to kill the supply from the >alternator means the wiring would be simpler if the device was wired >'backwards'. In fact the current will also flow through it backwards in that >if a contactor is normally handling current flowing from a battery to >devices this contactor will be handling current flowing from an alternator >to a battery. If you're using a 4-terminal device, you can ignore any marking suggesting one of the fat terminals goes to BAT. >The specific units concerned are the VANS Master Relay and the VANS ND 60 >amp alternator. As I recall, Van's master relay is a 3-terminal device with one coil lead attached to BAT. This contactor can't be used for alternator disconnect, you need a 4-terminal device like the S701-1 offered by B&C at: http://www.bandc.biz/S701-1.html and others. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David.Shani@sanmina-sci.com
Subject: Re: Watsonville Seminar Nov 8/9
Date: Oct 23, 2003
Hi Bob, I am an EAA Chapter 119 member...and I did not hear a thing about your seminar coming to Watsonville Nov 8th. Where are you going to conduct the seminar - I know of quit a few people that will be interested... Thanks David Shani Email: david.shani@sanmina-sci.com Message Hi Bob, I am an EAAChapter 119 member...and I did not hear a thing about your seminarcoming to Watsonville Nov 8th. Where are you going to conduct the seminar - I know of quit a few people that will be interested... Thanks David Shani Email: david.shani@sanmina-sci.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dimmers
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
John Schroeder wrote: > > To get relatively uniform dimming/illumination from a linear > regulator on a string of LED's you should have them in parallel. > Correct? You can run LEDs in series or parallel. There is a short, sweet summary of the pros and cons of series vs. parallel LEDs at: http://www.bivar.com/eLetter/driving-la.htm Technically, by running them in series, you guarantee that they consume the same amount of current and thus you theoretically get more consistent lighting. (It's the current through the device that sets the brightness.) Manufacturing tolerances can alter the voltage drop, so parallel LEDs may not always be exactly the same brightness. Eric's point about series strings is sound - you've basically got the same amount of power through the string that you'd have with only a single diode. So is John R's - you don't want to run too many, because you need "headroom" both to make sure they stay lit if the power rail sags, but also because that headroom is your dimming range. I'd like to add a few points (heard that before? ): 1. Series LEDs aren't a panacea. When LEDs fail they can fail open OR shorted. If they fail open you lose the entire chain, like you expect. But if they fail closed the same can happen - the voltage drop is gone, so the current flow goes up, and you can get a cascade failure. This really isn't a common occurrence, but I figured I'd cover all the bases. 2. Dimmers are usually designed so a full turn of the potentiometer dial is a full range from 0 (or nearly 0) to the power supply rail. You usually can't share a dimmer controlling series LED chains with a few individual devices in parallel, or regular light bulbs, because they won't dim at the same rate. (Well, bulbs would be brighter anyway, so you probably wouldn't want them, but still...) 3. If the LEDs aren't going to be near each other, making a series chain can be a pain. Since wiring and connectors are one of the most common (Bob, any stats here?) areas for a failure, I'm personally not all that fond of daisy-chaining widely separated LEDs. This is best used if they're close together, or you can get a rats nest of wiring. By the way, it's simple math, but there's a neat calculator for this formula at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/led.htm It's more complex than others in that it handles multiple LEDs but if you're planning on chaining it's a neat tool. Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com
Subject: Fuses - 28v
Bob .. this may be a stupid question .. but.. I've got a couple of 28 volt items in my panel (MFD). I've got a commercial 28 volt 'booster' from KGS Electrics I'm going to power a 6 fuse '28v bus'. What fuses do I use in this bus? Are they the same as 12v amperage-wise? Thanks... David ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil(at)petrasoft.net>
Subject: Re: Contactors
Date: Oct 23, 2003
The coil on Van's three terminal device isn't between the terminal and ground it is between the terminal and the BATT terminal. You ground the little terminal on the contactor to get it to pull in. I had the same problem and had to order the S701-1 to get it to work. Godspeed, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Sampson <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Contactors > > Bob - thanks for that. In that case I will get a S701-1. > > But for my education, why cant I use the VANS 3 terminal unit? Surely it is > internally wired as in the top right of the attached diag. with the coil > between the third terminal and the case which is grounded to the firewall? > Doesnt energising the coil, terminal to case pull the contactor in, and vica > versa? (If the diag. does not go through matronics, it is yours and > labelled - 'OV protection for built in regulator 1.0' It appears to have the > filename 'bleadov.pdf' which I suspect is your name for it.) > > Thanks, Steve. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert > L. Nuckolls, III > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactors > > > > > > > > > >Why do contactors normally have one side labelled to the battery and the > >other to the load? They would appear to be a symmetrical device from the > >internal diagram in Bob's book. > > some but not all contactors have one side of coil connected > internally to the BAT terminal. Often, a manufacturer uses > the same shell for all versions of the contactor and one of > the fat terminals gets marked BAT even tho it's really significant > for only part of the product line. > > > >The reason for the question is that I am wiring up the firewall of an RV9a > >and am using basically diags Z9 and Z24 (to control an internally regulated > >alternator). Placement of the contactor to kill the supply from the > >alternator means the wiring would be simpler if the device was wired > >'backwards'. In fact the current will also flow through it backwards in > that > >if a contactor is normally handling current flowing from a battery to > >devices this contactor will be handling current flowing from an alternator > >to a battery. > > If you're using a 4-terminal device, you can ignore any > marking suggesting one of the fat terminals goes to > BAT. > > > >The specific units concerned are the VANS Master Relay and the VANS ND 60 > >amp alternator. > > As I recall, Van's master relay is a 3-terminal device with one > coil lead attached to BAT. This contactor can't be used for > alternator disconnect, you need a 4-terminal device like > the S701-1 offered by B&C at: > > http://www.bandc.biz/S701-1.html > > and others. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Watsonville Seminar Nov 8/9
> >Hi Bob, > >I am an EAA Chapter 119 member...and I did not hear a thing about your >seminar coming to Watsonville Nov 8th. >Where are you going to conduct the seminar - I know of quit a few people >that will be interested... > >Thanks > >David Shani >Email: david.shani@sanmina-sci.com Our seminar schedule is always posted months in advance at http://www.aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html Dave has a big hangar for us to use so there's plenty of room. I would appreciate it if you'd pass the word. Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Contactors
> > >Bob - thanks for that. In that case I will get a S701-1. > >But for my education, why cant I use the VANS 3 terminal unit? Surely it is >internally wired as in the top right of the attached diag. with the coil >between the third terminal and the case which is grounded to the firewall? >Doesnt energising the coil, terminal to case pull the contactor in, and vica >versa? (If the diag. does not go through matronics, it is yours and >labelled - 'OV protection for built in regulator 1.0' It appears to have the >filename 'bleadov.pdf' which I suspect is your name for it.) To use a contactor with coil internally connected to the BAT terminal, you need to pull to ground to close the contactor . . . like for the battery master. Your alternator control leads is a pull up to bus to turn the alternator on. To satisfy both of these conditions, you would have to have a 3-pole DC PWR master wired like: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/sampson.gif By going to a 4-terminal contactor, you can make both alternator AND contactor operate by pulling up to bus with one pole of a two pole master switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuses - 28v
> >Bob .. this may be a stupid question .. but.. I've got a couple of 28 volt >items in my panel (MFD). I've got a commercial 28 volt 'booster' from KGS >Electrics I'm going to power a 6 fuse '28v bus'. What fuses do I use in >this bus? Are they the same as 12v amperage-wise? They're whatever you would use if the device is powered from a 28v supply. This data should be available from the manufacturer of the device. Generally speaking, 28 volt fuses are 1/2 the size of fuses for the same device in a 14 volt version . . . but not always. Check with manufacturer for recommended protection or do your own measurements on a functioning system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fuses - 28v
Date: Oct 23, 2003
I interpreted the question a little differently than Bob. The 5A blade fuse you buy from your local automotive supplier is a 5A fuse regardless whether is used in a 12V system or 24V system. Dave in Wichita > > > >Bob .. this may be a stupid question .. but.. I've got a couple of 28 volt > >items in my panel (MFD). I've got a commercial 28 volt 'booster' from KGS > >Electrics I'm going to power a 6 fuse '28v bus'. What fuses do I use in > >this bus? Are they the same as 12v amperage-wise? > > They're whatever you would use if the device is powered > from a 28v supply. This data should be available from the > manufacturer of the device. Generally speaking, 28 volt > fuses are 1/2 the size of fuses for the same device in a > 14 volt version . . . but not always. Check with manufacturer > for recommended protection or do your own measurements on > a functioning system. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Nav/Loc/GS and Comm antennae internally mounted
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com>
All, I would love to imbed the Comm, Nav/Loc/GS antennae in the fiberglass wing tips of my RV-8. I the slight research I have done, a foil Nav ant seems well suited to glass wing tip duty, but I have not seen any reviews of this same wing tip-mounted antenna when used for Loc/GS duty. Additionally, there seem to be mixed reviews of the foil Comm being hid beneath a wingtip on metal planes. Van's published an article years ago about the performance of a Comm ant glued to the windscreen, wherein they said performance was wonderful, however, said xmitting put a squeal into the headsets. I am radio ignorant. I desire good radio performance for instrument work, and I do not believe that a few antennae will slow me down more than a knot or two. However, I know plastic plane guys do really well with concealed antennae. Any thoughts out there? Art Treff Rv-8 Fastback (wiring) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Contactors
Date: Oct 23, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
Bob, speaking of contactors, what do they weigh? It's a small part of the setup, I know, but I've been considering things like ground power jacks and such and would like to at least have the datum tracked, since I'm going to all the trouble to track everything else. Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Microair 706 and Audio Iso Amp
<5.0.0.25.2.20031023191756.01a06c60(at)pop.central.cox.net> >Yessir- here's the reply from Oz: > >"G,day mark, >Sorry you are having radio problems,I have just returned from 2 weeks >leave,hence the delay in reply.It seems from your description you may have a >microprocessor problem.Do you think you could replace it if i sent one to >you.It is a plug in device. >Regards Ian.G." (Ian Games) > >One of their SBs shows the procedure- take off cover, two screws to separate >front of unit for access, then remove the chip (looks like a PLCC) with >special >tongs. Here's the SB: > >http://www.microair.com.au//admin/uploads/M760-SB-003(Rev1.0)occur_strange_disp_chara.pdf > >I don't have the tongs- digikey K293-ND here: >[Image] Interesting! Owner maintained radios. What will they think of next. There was a time that it was illegal for anyone but the operator of a filling station to pump gasoline. Now, the only state I know where that's true is Oregon . . . the Gasoline Pumper's Union needed to protect jobs. Ever so slowly, folks who offer goods and services are finding that consumers ARE capable of and willing to take on new tasks (I seldom use a manned checkout line at the grocery store and/or Walmart . . . there are do-it-yerself scanners at both stores). I am encouraged that Microair has taken this tiny leap into crafting a cooperative and more useful relationship with their customers. >but for almost $30, I think I can carefully pry it out by the corners with a >couple of small screwdrivers- bad idea, or should I get the tool? I've never had a tool for this. You're correct that it can be done by other means with reasonable care. >Thanks again- Iso Amp on it's way today. Very good. I'll get to it as soon as I can. Let us know how the great Microair experiment plays out . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Contactors
> > >Bob, speaking of contactors, what do they weigh? It's a small part of the >setup, I know, but I've been considering things like ground power jacks >and such and would like to at least have the datum tracked, since I'm >going to all the trouble to track everything else. > >Regards, >Chad 0.8 pounds for both Van's Cole-Hersee and B&C's S702-1 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: coax squisher
A friend let me borrow a ratcheting type coax crimper. It is made for RG type cable 6,58,59,62,141,142 and has hex crimps .324", .256", .213", and .068" (pin). Will this work adequately for the RG-400 wire and BNC male connectors I got from B&C? Thanks folks! Joa Rans Super-7 "mounted a wing last night and she's starting to look like she can fly!" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: coax squisher
> > > >A friend let me borrow a ratcheting type coax crimper. It is made for RG >type cable 6,58,59,62,141,142 and has hex crimps .324", .256", .213", and >.068" (pin). Will this work adequately for the RG-400 wire and BNC male >connectors I got from B&C? Yup, .213 and .068 are the dies for that connector. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor Question
Now why didn't I think of that. Yes. I do have a battery bus. Tying into a fused slot will be easy. I will do exactly as you suggest. Thanks. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ----------------------------- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor Question > > > > > > > >I have a Van's three terminal Master Contactor. I have two fat wires and > >a diode attached to the BAT terminal. I need to connect a back up > >alternator lead to the same terminal, but there ain't no more room. Is > >there an easy solution other than going to a four terminal contactor? > > Hmmm . . . the Cole-Hersee contactors have a fat wire stud > length about 0.1" shorter than the RBM/Stancore parts from > B&C . . . it can present a problem with terminal stacking. > > Do you have a battery bus? If so, you can tie the aux alternator > to a fuse slot on the battery bus and eliminate the fusible link. > I'd go for a 15A fuse in off the battery bus. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Subject: Re: Substitute for Shoo Goo
From: Larry Landucci <lllanducci(at)tds.net>
In our area (Madison, WI) the E6000 adhesive is available at Jo-Ann Fabrics. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Microair 706 and Audio Iso Amp <5.0.0.25.2.20031023191756.01a06c60(at)pop.central.cox.net>
Actually I used to live in Oregon and still own a home there and really like having my gas pumped for me :) Creates jobs, is better for the environment (w/ properly trained employees), and reduces the chance of a gas station fire by some static charged lady that gets back into her car while pumping. Any of you seen the Myth Busters episode where they try to blow up the gasoline with a static charge off a pair of silk panties (among other things)??? Hilarious episode! Some of the stuff they do on that show is just crazy and all of us homebuilt-arky-sparky types can really relate! Would love to have their job! Joa > There was a time that it was illegal for anyone but the > operator of a filling station to pump gasoline. Now, the only > state I know where that's true is Oregon . . . the Gasoline > Pumper's Union needed to protect jobs. Ever so slowly, folk > --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Nick Gaglia <ngaglia(at)calpine.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 10/23/03
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Does anyone know anything about seat heaters. Like they put in nice cars these days. Where to get them How much do they cost How much current do the take Has anyone used them in an experimental I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and not easy way to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm always to warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I thought ??? Nick RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>
Subject: Coax Bulkhead Connector on RV Root Rib
Date: Oct 24, 2003
I am wanting to run my coax through the wings while it is easy to route .. while I don't have my bottom skins on yet. This would be on an RV-7 I am wondering if it is a reasonable practice to terminate the coax at a bulkhead connector on the root rib, or if it is better to just leave a coil of coax that I can later route into the fuselage? While the connector would facilitate removal of the wing it does add a connector to the feedline and (I assume) a possible risk of creating a problem. I guess my question is ... is a bulkhead connector reliable enough that it is worth using, or would avoiding it make for a substantially more reliable antenna feedline? Thanks! -- Dwight ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net>
Subject: Re: Dimmers
Hi Chad- All of the switch legends on my panel are back lit by clusters of Superbright red LEDs with either 3 or 4 in series (eight of each) with all of them powered/dimmed with this "dimmer": http://www.mpja.com/directview.asp?product=4057+MD ($16) which is a PWM motor controller run by a 555 timer chip. Rated @ 10 amps. Several respected and knowledgeable listers have suggested these "can" be noisy, but in my case, the radio crapped before I noticed any kind of noise, so I may not have even had the panel lights on- we'll see when the comm is comming agin'......... I removed the fwd/rev slider switch and replaced the control pot with a better quality unit which is remote-mounted on the panel (with it's own LED legend under it!) It was a fun kit to put together and works very well- not perfectly linear, but quite acceptable and all the LEDs stay at the same relative brightness as there is no variation in voltage to them. They go from barely visible to full bright. If you'd like photos of them in the light and dark, and a AutoCad drawing, let me know. From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips RV-6A - getting close........... "Robinson, Chad" wrote: > > To get relatively uniform dimming/illumination from a linear > > regulator on a string of LED's you should have them in parallel. > > Correct? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Coax Bulkhead Connector on RV Root Rib
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Dwight, You'll get responses at both ends of the spectrum on this one. I terminated mine at the wing root not because I thought I would be removing my wings later on, but because I prefer to finish as much of the airplane in my shop instead of at the airport. In this part of the county (Indiana), the winters are cold and the hangars unheated. A properly crimped coax connector, as well as properly crimped electrical connectors, create a minimal amount of additional risk. For me, the additional risk is worth the convenience. In the end, there's nothing out in the wings that I can't do without during flight should there be an unforseen problem. The airplane will fly just fine without strobes, landing lights, and my NAV antenna. And, if I ever have an occasion to remove the wings, a quick twist and turn of the connectors is all that's needed. I know of several flying friends who had off-field excursions that required a field removal of the wings to support transportation. Randy F1Rocket http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ > > I am wanting to run my coax through the wings while it is easy to route > .. while I don't have my bottom skins on yet. This would be on an RV-7 > > I am wondering if it is a reasonable practice to terminate the coax at a > bulkhead connector on the root rib, or if it is better to just leave a > coil of coax that I can later route into the fuselage? > > While the connector would facilitate removal of the wing it does add a > connector to the feedline and (I assume) a possible risk of creating a > problem. I guess my question is ... is a bulkhead connector reliable enough > that it is worth using, or would avoiding it make for a substantially more > reliable antenna feedline? > > Thanks! > > -- Dwight > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 10/23/03
Date: Oct 24, 2003
I believe that some folks have purchased wool seat heater covers from the aviation department at J. C. Whitney and used them with some success. As long as you have the current capacity in your airplane to drive these devices, it is a viable alternative. For the few times they are actually used, I would receommend that you install them so that they can be removed on warmer flying days. Randy F1 Rocket http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ > > Does anyone know anything about seat heaters. Like they put in nice cars > these days. > > Where to get them > How much do they cost > How much current do the take > Has anyone used them in an experimental > > > I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and not easy way > to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm always to > warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I thought ??? > > Nick > RV-8 > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: Contactors
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Bob many thanks. All makes sense nmow. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: Substitute for Shoo Goo
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Bob - a UK customer here if B&C put it on the list! I need to make up a plug for the MAC servo and fix my shoes! Steve. PS Concorde was easy for the UK but Shoo Goo is beyond us! PPS Gilles - if you find a substitute please let me know. Merci beaucoup! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: human factors resource
Maybe this has been listed here before but here's a great resource we use for helping with cockpit design and may be of interest to some of you when laying out your panel and electrics.... www.generalaviation.org/download/GAMA10DF.doc Joa --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: Substitute for Shoo Goo
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Holy mackerel! I've been distracted wondering why my wife has a joystick top with vibration stall warning device in her lingerie drawer (probably my Christmas present!) so I missed some of this important issue. Most of the various GOOP products (Household, Plumber's, Automotive, Amazing, Craftsman, and Shoe GOO) are simply "retail" versions of E6000 industrial adhesive. They contain a more consumer-friendly solvent, but have the same performance characteristics. Marine GOOP differs only in that it contains UV inhibitors it's their E6800 industrial adhesive, solvent and all. Shoo Goo used to be made from a harder resin, but that's not true any longer. Eclectic Products (manufacturers of Goop) says that if you live in the U.S. there is a different formula for Goop than in Canada. The Canadian formula contains perchloroethylene which is a known carcinogenic but is non-flammable and also does not work quite as well. The U.S. Goop contains toluene, which although is a flammable solvent, it is not carcinogenic. Duco (made by Devcon) is made of nitro cellulose with toluene solvent. Pretty much a tube of rocket fuel it seems to me. It's an older formulation--most of the newer household goops use styrene monomers. The solvents may depend on where you buy it. So in short Shoo Goo is not on the critical materials list. Just buy anything in the hardware store that says "miracle" and is not a white glue, a rubber, a cyanoacrylate, or an epoxy. Look for the picture of a teacup with a broken handle. That's the stuff. (Various parts of this text brazenly borrow from the internet....) Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net BBC reporter on last flight of the Concord---"We're traveling at Mach 2 and it doesn't feel like it at all!" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Substitute for Shoo Goo
Date: Oct 24, 2003
> Holy mackerel! I've been distracted wondering why my wife has a > joystick top with vibration stall warning device in her lingerie drawer Eric, If she does, it's not for you're plane! John Slade ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Dan, I don't understand. The instructions I have from a Garmin dealer call for removing 4 surface-mount resistors from the GMA 340 PC board. How can you have a switch controlling this? Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp > > Jim, > > I can tell you that the optional gain does work very well on the GMA-340. > It boosts it more than you might think. I went and installed a little > toggle switch on my panel to control the boost on/off. You might want to > give it a shot and try it out before going with a more complicated solution. > Just my 2 cents! > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com> > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp > > > <joberst@cox-internet.com> > > > > Bob, I have a Garmin GMA340 audio panel, and I have installed some mini > > earphone jacks that go to its music input. Problem is with portable tape > or > > CD players, their output level is far short of what's needed to hear them > in > > the headphones. Garmin has a fix that provides 10dB gain, but that > doesn't > > seem to me like it will be enough, so I don't want to start removing > surface > > mount resistors to do it. What would be simplest would be to add a stereo > > audio amplifier between my panel jacks and the Garmin music input. > > > > I saw this post on an audio isolation amplifier, and was wondering if this > > is what I need. Or if not, has there been a design (or a simple box I can > > buy) discussed before? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Jim Oberst > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> > > To: > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp > > > > > > > > > > > > I've combed out some errors and added a note (14) to > > > point out connector pin variations depending on how > > > the connector is mounted. Download: > > > > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) > > > ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) > > > ( and still understand nothing. ) > > > ( C.F. Kettering ) > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Bob, I will try to find out what the Garmin music input sensitivity is from them. This is a stereo setup. How would I check the audio output from these players? If I just play music and measure the AC voltage, will it give me an idea, or do I need to hook it up to an oscilloscope and look for the peak voltage? Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp > > ><joberst@cox-internet.com> > > > >Bob, I have a Garmin GMA340 audio panel, and I have installed some mini > >earphone jacks that go to its music input. Problem is with portable tape or > >CD players, their output level is far short of what's needed to hear them in > >the headphones. Garmin has a fix that provides 10dB gain, but that doesn't > >seem to me like it will be enough, so I don't want to start removing surface > >mount resistors to do it. What would be simplest would be to add a stereo > >audio amplifier between my panel jacks and the Garmin music input. > > > >I saw this post on an audio isolation amplifier, and was wondering if this > >is what I need. Or if not, has there been a design (or a simple box I can > >buy) discussed before? > > The audio iso amp as configured has a voltage gain of about 1.0 > but it could be higher. Is the music input mono or stereo? Do you > have a specification for the input sensitivity of this port? In the > automotive world, aux inputs are on the order of 500 mv rms (1.5v pk-pk) > which is in the same ballpark as headset outputs. I'm a bit mystified > as to why you're having problems. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions
for Audio Iso Amp
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Roy, thanks for the info, sounds like what I need. I'll look into it. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: <royt.or(at)netzero.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp > > > Jim, Bob, > > I'm using the equivalent of a boostaroo (see http://www.boostaroo.com/) that I got from Radio Shack for about $20.00. This is ~$30.00 on the boostaroo web page. (Currently, I can not find this on the Radio Shack web page.) > > This works well for using a portable CD/MP3 player with the Garmin GMA340 in my plane. I plan to try the Garmin update in the future. > > Regards, > > Roy > > CH601HDS, Rotax 912S, All electric panel. 130 hours since first flight on 5/12/03 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions
for Audio Iso Amp
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Roy, another question. You say the "equivalent of a boostaroo". The boostaroo claims only 4db gain with a single output connected. Do you know if the boostaroo is really equivalent to your device? Can you tell me what the Radio Shack device is called? When I plug in my players, I can barely hear them even with volume at max. Was yours like that, or just "not loud enough"? I'm wondering if I have something else wrong. Thanks. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: <royt.or(at)netzero.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions for Audio Iso Amp > > > Jim, Bob, > > I'm using the equivalent of a boostaroo (see http://www.boostaroo.com/) that I got from Radio Shack for about $20.00. This is ~$30.00 on the boostaroo web page. (Currently, I can not find this on the Radio Shack web page.) > > This works well for using a portable CD/MP3 player with the Garmin GMA340 in my plane. I plan to try the Garmin update in the future. > > Regards, > > Roy > > CH601HDS, Rotax 912S, All electric panel. 130 hours since first flight on 5/12/03 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: good deal on battery..?
From: Bob Bittner <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Oct 24, 2003
10/24/2003 06:59:56 PM, Serialize complete at 10/24/2003 06:59:56 PM Walking through Menard's (a local do-it-yourself type place) yesterday, I saw one of those handy "jumpstarter" portables for $25. I figure it was a pretty decent deal.. for that $$, I got a 17AH SLA battery (7"x7"x3") which they claim can crank 900A, a battery disconnect switch, a plug-in automatic battery maintainer, a 12V supply cord/lighter plug, a voltmeter marked for 12V battery monitoring, 6 feet of 4 AWG high-flex silicone-insulated wire, and some miscellany like a couple switches, a light, and a circuit breaker. I've already bought an Odyssey PC680, but otherwise I'd probably build around this battery of the same size. Bob B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 10/23/03
Nick Gaglia wrote: > >Does anyone know anything about seat heaters. Like they put in nice cars >these days. > >Nick >RV-8 > > Nick; Not exactly what you're looking for but as an alternative to heated seats you might want to consider these products. I use a heated vest on my motorcycle in cool weather. Works great. http://www.gerbing.com/index.htm Bob McC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: good deal on battery..?
Date: Oct 24, 2003
Hi Bob, Would you tell us what kind of battery cable attachment hardware this battery uses or requires. Also is there any identification such as manufacturer, part numbers etc on the battery inside and the "jumpstarter itself. I have looked at these units before now but the prices north of the 49th tend to prohibit the tendency to buy only on speculation. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bittner" <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: good deal on battery..? > > Walking through Menard's (a local do-it-yourself type place) yesterday, I > saw one of those handy "jumpstarter" portables for $25. > I figure it was a pretty decent deal.. for that $$, I got a 17AH SLA > battery (7"x7"x3") which they claim can crank 900A, a battery disconnect > switch, a plug-in automatic battery maintainer, a 12V supply cord/lighter > plug, a voltmeter marked for 12V battery monitoring, 6 feet of 4 AWG > high-flex silicone-insulated wire, and some miscellany like a couple > switches, a light, and a circuit breaker. > I've already bought an Odyssey PC680, but otherwise I'd probably build > around this battery of the same size. > > Bob B > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: good deal on battery..?
> >Walking through Menard's (a local do-it-yourself type place) yesterday, I >saw one of those handy "jumpstarter" portables for $25. >I figure it was a pretty decent deal.. for that $$, I got a 17AH SLA >battery (7"x7"x3") which they claim can crank 900A, a battery disconnect >switch, a plug-in automatic battery maintainer, a 12V supply cord/lighter >plug, a voltmeter marked for 12V battery monitoring, 6 feet of 4 AWG >high-flex silicone-insulated wire, and some miscellany like a couple >switches, a light, and a circuit breaker. >I've already bought an Odyssey PC680, but otherwise I'd probably build >around this battery of the same size. This would be my battery of choice too. I've run across a number of consumer products that came with a 17 a.h. 3 x 7 x 7 RG battery already installed. I've even purchased a couple and took them apart to evaluate the battery. Both contained no-name batteries with features I could not identify as any particular manufacturer. The claimed 900A is common for many of these products and is totally bogus . . . NO 17 a.h. battery will deliver 8.5 volts or better at more than 500-600 A for the very best ones I've tested. I think B&C is offering only the Hawker batteries in this a.h. class and they're always superior crankers . . . but I don't think I've seen one of these go over 600A under the B&C 8.5v test. As I recall, they would dump about 250A when loaded to 8.5v (B&C test protocol) and and just over 200A when loaded to 9v for 15 seconds (test protocol recommended by my super-duper SB-5 battery tester). Certainly adequate to crank and engine when new . . . and probably quite serviceable for a yearly change-out application. Wouldn't recommend that these batteries be avoided, I don't have any data upon which to base a considered recommendation. I would appreciate it if folks share their experiences with this genre of RG battery with folks on the list. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: human factors resource
> > >Maybe this has been listed here before but here's a great resource we use >for helping with cockpit design and may be of interest to some of you when >laying out your panel and electrics.... > >www.generalaviation.org/download/GAMA10DF.doc Nice find sir! Thanks for turning us onto it. It was interesting to note how little the document has to say about electrical system ergonomics . . . less than 1 page out of 92. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: New member ...
Date: Oct 25, 2003
Hi all, I build a two-seats aircraft in composite (carbon epoxy). It is a MCR 01 SPORTSTER known in US under the name of LAFAYETTE. It is powered with a ROTAX 912 and gently cruise at 140 Kts. I discovered Aeroelectric web site thanks to (excellent!) friend of mine. I do not put myself any more a question, I have the answers!!!!! It is a true gold mine. Recently of weeks I was registered with the list aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com. I am very impressed by the sendings and the quality of Bob'answers (A tout seigneur, tout honneur !). However, I would like to have your opinion on the following choice. I am preparing the wiring of the flaprons. There are two end of travel microswitches (max UP and max DOWN). Do these microswitches have to be in the power circuit (10 A max) or in the control circuit (0.2 A max) ? I know that it is easier to commutate 0.2 A than 10. But, what does occur, if for an unknown reason, the relay is blocked in closed position? Thank you for your answers. Michel RIAZUELO MCR SPORTSTER in progress .... Cholet FRANCE ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: New member ...
>I am preparing the wiring of the flaprons. There are two end of travel >microswitches (max UP and max DOWN). >Do these microswitches have to be in the power circuit (10 A max) or in >the control circuit (0.2 A max) ? >I know that it is easier to commutate 0.2 A than 10. But, what does occur, >if for an unknown reason, the relay is blocked in closed position? This is a classic example of a need to do Failure Mode Effects Analysis (FMEA). What happens if your flaps become inoperative at any particular position. Is there a flight condition that becomes hazardous of you find that you cannot move flaps? What is the consequence of limit switch failure? Does the flap motor and gear reduction system have the capability to bend airplane parts if the flap jams or fails to stop at extend or retract limits? If the answers to these questions raise no concerns, then component selection and architecture for wiring them up become non-critical issues. It's uncommon for a reasonably sized relay to stick closed carrying flap motor current. Cessna runs flap motor current through microswitches on some the older airplanes with good results. You want a switch that is rated for power service (15A contacts) but these are readily available from a variety of sources. So you can pretty much configure as you see fit. Here's a drawing where relays control motor power and limit switches control relays. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/flaps.pdf On the other hand, if your airplane has any risk of becoming an unmanageable beast because of inability to operate the flaps, a more cautious approach to flap controls and backups is in order. I suspect this is not the case. The only airplane I've ever flown that had this characteristic was early C-150's with 40 degrees of flap capability. On a hot day, once you had full flaps and less than 100' of altitude, you were committed to put wheels on the ground. I think there was an AD to limit flap travel to 30 degrees so that the airplane could at least maintain altitude at full flaps and throttle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: human factors resource
Date: Oct 25, 2003
> >www.generalaviation.org/download/GAMA10DF.doc > > Nice find sir! Thanks for turning us onto it. It was interesting > to note how little the document has to say about electrical system > ergonomics . . . less than 1 page out of 92. > > Bob . . . I cruised through the document referenced above, and kind of got bored. There is a lot of fine tuning discussed in that document. I believe, however, that we often miss the very basic things. Please don't anyone take offense, but I really, really don't like long rows of switches. Please consider grouping switches as to function. For example, I put all four switches that relate to lighting together on the right side of the panel (strobes, nav, panel, landing). Well above these switches are the autopilot and trim disconnect switches. In the middle of the panel, I have defrost and pitot heat (also alternate air). On the far left are the three switches that relate to power distribution. Boost pump is right by the mixture control, flaps right by the throttle. These are located to help with the flow of checklists and procedures. It is a good idea to think through startup, taxi, preflight etc. procedures before designing the panel layout. For example, if one takes off with flaps, they need to be raised almost immediately after takeoff in an RV, for example. Your hand will be on the throttle at that point, so put the flaps near there. I think it is an important and interesting topic... Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 395 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: New member ...
Date: Oct 25, 2003
See www.motionsystems.com for actuators that freewheel at both extremes of their travel. They're used on the Glasair's for flap and electric trim actuators. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New member ... >I am preparing the wiring of the flaprons. There are two end of travel >microswitches (max UP and max DOWN). >Do these microswitches have to be in the power circuit (10 A max) or in >the control circuit (0.2 A max) ? >I know that it is easier to commutate 0.2 A than 10. But, what does occur, >if for an unknown reason, the relay is blocked in closed position? This is a classic example of a need to do Failure Mode Effects Analysis (FMEA). What happens if your flaps become inoperative at any particular position. Is there a flight condition that becomes hazardous of you find that you cannot move flaps? What is the consequence of limit switch failure? Does the flap motor and gear reduction system have the capability to bend airplane parts if the flap jams or fails to stop at extend or retract limits? If the answers to these questions raise no concerns, then component selection and architecture for wiring them up become non-critical issues. It's uncommon for a reasonably sized relay to stick closed carrying flap motor current. Cessna runs flap motor current through microswitches on some the older airplanes with good results. You want a switch that is rated for power service (15A contacts) but these are readily available from a variety of sources. So you can pretty much configure as you see fit. Here's a drawing where relays control motor power and limit switches control relays. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/flaps.pdf On the other hand, if your airplane has any risk of becoming an unmanageable beast because of inability to operate the flaps, a more cautious approach to flap controls and backups is in order. I suspect this is not the case. The only airplane I've ever flown that had this characteristic was early C-150's with 40 degrees of flap capability. On a hot day, once you had full flaps and less than 100' of altitude, you were committed to put wheels on the ground. I think there was an AD to limit flap travel to 30 degrees so that the airplane could at least maintain altitude at full flaps and throttle. Bob . . . == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New member ...
Date: Oct 25, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
Bruce Gray wrote: > See www.motionsystems.com for actuators that freewheel at both extremes > of their travel. They're used on the Glasair's for flap and electric > trim actuators. Bruce, can you supply a cost for these units? Also, do they "lock" - that is, once they are turned off, do they prevent travel in either direction? (I expect since they're worm-gear driven this is a yes.) Finally, how do the Glasairs hook these up to allow mechanical override by the pilot? Are they used on a spring system or similar? Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: DIY sexy flap switch . . .
> >Comments/Questions: Bob, >This is an oddball request, but maybe you can help. I'm building an RV-6A >with electric flaps, and I'd like to put on my panel a flap switch that >uses a bat handle shaped like a flap. I can't find any info about this >from Matronics or Google searches. I have also e-mailed RAC via the >website but have not yet received an answer. > >Do you know who makes either the whole switch or just the bat handle >adapter for this? > >Thanks for your time and help. You don't even WANT to know what this switch costs for a Bonanza. How about building one? You start with a toggle switch that operates on a pinned shaft as opposed to ball-n-socket pivot. Microswitch products are one example of this kind of switch. Next, carve a flap shape out of a piece of aluminum. If I were going to make a lot, I'd have the things NC machined. If I needed one, less than 30 minutes or so with a band-saw, belt sander and little chunk of 5/8" alum sheet would get the job done too. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FlapSwitch/FlapSw1.jpg Sand a flat on the last 1/2" or so of the bat-handle on a toggle. Drill handle for snug fit on toggle of switch. .240" is typical. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FlapSwitch/FlapSw2.jpg Drill and tap handle for 6-32 set screws, one each side and attach to switch after it's mounted in panel. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FlapSwitch/FlapSw3.jpg From the time I read your note to the time I began to take these pictures was about 20 minutes. Yeah, I cheated and used Delrin . . . didn't have a suitable piece of aluminum stock. So it might take 30 minutes with aluminum. Keep bowl of water and ice cubes handy to dip workpiece for cooling during sculpting phase on the belt sander. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FSmith9890(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 25, 2003
Subject: Nav/Loc/GS and Comm Antenna internally mounted
Wingtip antennas for both Nav and Loc and GS work very well in two RV-4 I've had. I used the standard comm whip in each wingtip. It is easy to mount and connect than the copper foil, and you can take off the wingtip fairing if necessary without worry about the connections. In one RV-4 I used one antenna for com. Works ok but not great range, and the other with a splitter for the GS/ Nav. In the present one one whip is used for the GS, and the other for the Nav/LOc. The only external antennas are the transponder, and the comm. I think these are better fully external. The comm is a loaded whip only 13inches long and is on the bottom of the airplane. FWIW Frank ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: New member ...
Date: Oct 25, 2003
I don't know cost, under $200 if I remember correctly. You can buy directly from the factory. Don't tell them it's for an aircraft. They're one of those strange companies that will refuse to sell if they know it's bound for an airplane. I'll send you a pdf of the trim system directly. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robinson, Chad Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New member ... Bruce Gray wrote: > See www.motionsystems.com for actuators that freewheel at both extremes > of their travel. They're used on the Glasair's for flap and electric > trim actuators. Bruce, can you supply a cost for these units? Also, do they "lock" - that is, once they are turned off, do they prevent travel in either direction? (I expect since they're worm-gear driven this is a yes.) Finally, how do the Glasairs hook these up to allow mechanical override by the pilot? Are they used on a spring system or similar? Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: New member ...
Date: Oct 26, 2003
Hi Bob, Thanks for your answer. >Does the flap motor and gear reduction system have the capability to bend >airplane parts if the flap jams or fails to stop at extend or retract >limits? Not, fortunately! >On the other hand, if your airplane has any risk of becoming >an unmanageable beast because of inability to operate the >flaps, a more cautious approach to flap controls and backups >is in order. I suspect this is not the case. MCR SPORTSTER flies, takes off, land and climb in all flaps configurations. I would have to think I made an error by putting my question. >It's uncommon for a reasonably sized relay to stick >closed carrying flap motor current. And it is even truer with two S704-1!!!!! And I make http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/flaps.pdf mine ! Michel . . . MCR SPORTSTER in progress . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neil Henderson" <neil.mo51(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Van's Windscreen Antenna
Date: Oct 26, 2003
Listers I'm thinking of using the Van's style windscreen mounted comm's antenna. At $7 I assume it can only be a BNC bulkhead connector and a length of self adhisive copper tape. As I have both items to hand in my tool box this could be a very economic route to take. Could anyone who has installed one confirm my assumption and does the installation perform sarisfactorily. Neil Henderson RV9-A Nr Aylesbury UK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: "flag" style fast-ons
Date: Oct 26, 2003
I'm wiring my LightSpeed coils, which are mounted aft on top of my IO-360's case. Trouble is, there's very little clearance (about 1/2") between the terminals on the coils and the rear baffle wall. The issue this raises is that I'm not comfortable using traditional straight fast-on connectors, since the wires would have to bend sharply immediately behind the connector. So I've been looking for "flag" style fast-ons. The one I found is a Molex 19006-0001: http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/190060001_sd.pdf From what I've read in the archives, these flag connectors cannot be crimped using my run of the mill red/blue/yellow ratcheting crimper, but rather require crimpers that cost hundreds. I've only got 4 of these puppies to crimp, so it's um...difficult...to justify spending hundreds if there's another option. If there's a better or alternative technique for sharply right-angling wires at the fast-on, please let me know. Thanks in advance, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: "flag" style fast-ons
Date: Oct 26, 2003
Dan, I haven't fit the baffles or wired the Lightspeed yet, but for some reason I mounted the coils with the connectors pointed forward. Would that let you make a bigger radius turn and put less stress on the connector? Terry I'm wiring my LightSpeed coils, which are mounted aft on top of my IO-360's case. Trouble is, there's very little clearance (about 1/2") between the terminals on the coils and the rear baffle wall. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Mineart" <smineart(at)kdsi.net>
Subject: grounding hardware
Date: Oct 26, 2003
I'm brand new to the list, looking forward to learning. I'm building a Zenith CH601XL, and I knew I was electrically challenged, just didn't know it would be so telling so soon. I need to know what the best materials and method are for grounding to the aluminum airframe, so I can install my fuel sender in the most permanent and fail-safe way. By the way, I have really enjoyed my forst time through the Aeroelectric Connection, and plan to read it over again and again until I really understand the wealth of information. Thanks! Steve Mineart ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: "flag" style fast-ons
Date: Oct 26, 2003
> I haven't fit the baffles or wired the Lightspeed yet, but for some reason I > mounted the coils with the connectors pointed forward. Would that let you > make a bigger radius turn and put less stress on the connector? With the .250" terminals pointing forward, there wouldn't be enough room for the spark plug wires to attach on the back. Thanks for the suggestion, though, )_( Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N566u(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 26, 2003
Subject: Re: "flag" style fast-ons
In a message dated 10/26/2003 10:00:53 AM US Mountain Standard Time, dan(at)rvproject.com writes: I mounted mine on the top of the engine on a bracket I made. By moving the coils forward some, I avioded the problem you are describing. The bracket supplied caused the coils to be mounted to far to the rear. More than one way to skin that rabbit! > I'm wiring my LightSpeed coils, which are mounted aft on top of my IO-360's > case. Trouble is, there's very little clearance (about 1/2") between the > terminals on the coils and the rear baffle wall. The issue this raises is > that I'm not comfortable using traditional straight fast-on connectors, > since the wires would have to bend sharply immediately behind the connector > > Ron Smith > n566u(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: "flag" style fast-ons
Date: Oct 26, 2003
> I mounted mine on the top of the engine on a bracket I made. By moving the > coils forward some, I avioded the problem you are describing. The bracket > supplied caused the coils to be mounted to far to the rear. More than one way to > skin that rabbit! Trust me, I tried to come up with a way to do it that way, moving the coils forward. Problem is I've got the flow divider and distribution lines spanning the top of the case right there, and I can't move the coils forward without performing surgery on the injector lines (undesirable, last resort). Jim Jewell sent me email showing me how he ground down his ratcheting crimper (same one I have) to accommodate the flag connector without damaging it. I think I might give that a try if nothing else pops up. Thanks again, everybody! )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 26, 2003
Subject: Hot Seat
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia <> 10/26/2003 Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing like the motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, availability, flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, body coverage, etc. etc. See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place or google search for more ideas. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2003
From: melvinke(at)direcway.com
Subject: Re: Hot Seat
Try AT-LAST thermal products (www.4atlast.com). I have their heated seats in my car and RV4. wonderful product! Kenneth Melvin, N36KM. ----- Original Message ----- From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:31 pm Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > > AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia > > > < nice cars > these days. > > Where to get them > How much do they cost > How much current do the take > Has anyone used them in an experimental > > I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and > not easy way > to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm > always to > warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I > thought ??? > Nick RV-8 >> > > 10/26/2003 > > Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing > like the > motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, > availability, > flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, > body coverage, > etc. etc. > > See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place > or google > search for more ideas. > > 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? > > > _- > _- > report_- > _- > ======================================================================== > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2003
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Seat
Kenneth, I tried the link you supplied below, but it appears that it is not a valid web address. Charlie Kuss > >Try AT-LAST thermal products (www.4atlast.com). I have their heated seats in my car and RV4. wonderful product! >Kenneth Melvin, N36KM. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com >Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:31 pm >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > >> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia >> >> >> <> nice cars >> these days. >> >> Where to get them >> How much do they cost >> How much current do the take >> Has anyone used them in an experimental >> >> I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and >> not easy way >> to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm >> always to >> warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I >> thought ??? >> Nick RV-8 >> >> >> 10/26/2003 >> >> Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing >> like the >> motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, >> availability, >> flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, >> body coverage, >> etc. etc. >> >> See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place >> or google >> search for more ideas. >> >> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? >> >> >> _- >> _- >> report_- >> _- >> ======================================================================== >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BTomm <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Hot Seat
Date: Oct 26, 2003
Ken Could you check the link you posted for the seat warmers. It seems incorrect. Bevan On Sunday, October 26, 2003 5:49 PM, melvinke(at)direcway.com [SMTP:melvinke(at)direcway.com] wrote: > > Try AT-LAST thermal products (www.4atlast.com). I have their heated seats in my car and RV4. wonderful product! > Kenneth Melvin, N36KM. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:31 pm > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > > > > > AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia > > > > > > < > nice cars > > these days. > > > > Where to get them > > How much do they cost > > How much current do the take > > Has anyone used them in an experimental > > > > I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and > > not easy way > > to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm > > always to > > warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I > > thought ??? > > Nick RV-8 >> > > > > 10/26/2003 > > > > Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing > > like the > > motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, > > availability, > > flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, > > body coverage, > > etc. etc. > > > > See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place > > or google > > search for more ideas. > > > > 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? > > > > > > _- > > _- > > report_- > > _- > > ======================================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brett Ferrell" <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Seat
Date: Oct 27, 2003
I purchased these for my Velocity (I haven't had them on yet, they're out for uphostery now).... They're two temperature units. http://store.yahoo.com/sports-imports/afcarseathea.html Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: <BAKEROCB(at)aol.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > > AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia > > > < these days. > > Where to get them > How much do they cost > How much current do the take > Has anyone used them in an experimental > > I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and not easy way > to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm always to > warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I thought ??? > Nick RV-8 >> > > 10/26/2003 > > Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing like the > motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, availability, > flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, body coverage, > etc. etc. > > See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place or google > search for more ideas. > > 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ageless Wings" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Hot Seat
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Mornin', Charlie and Kenneth... Yeah...it looks like 4atlast's website is down...don't know if it's temporary or permanent, but here is a list of online heated clothing suppliers I found while trying to find 4atlast: http://www.f6rider.com/Articles/heatedclothing.htm Harley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of >> Charlie Kuss >> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:07 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat >> >> >> >> >> Kenneth, >> I tried the link you supplied below, but it appears that it is >> not a valid web address. >> Charlie Kuss >> >> > >> >Try AT-LAST thermal products (www.4atlast.com). I have their >> heated seats in my car and RV4. wonderful product! >> >Kenneth Melvin, N36KM. >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com >> >Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:31 pm >> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat >> > >> >> >> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia >> >> >> >> >> >> <> >> nice cars >> >> these days. >> >> >> >> Where to get them >> >> How much do they cost >> >> How much current do the take >> >> Has anyone used them in an experimental >> >> >> >> I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and >> >> not easy way >> >> to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm >> >> always to >> >> warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I >> >> thought ??? >> >> Nick RV-8 >> >> >> >> >> 10/26/2003 >> >> >> >> Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing >> >> like the >> >> motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, >> >> availability, >> >> flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, >> >> body coverage, >> >> etc. etc. >> >> >> >> See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place >> >> or google >> >> search for more ideas. >> >> >> >> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? >> >> >> >> >> >> _- >> >> _- >> >> report_- >> >> _- >> >> >> ======================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> ========= >> ========= >> ========= >> ========= >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ronnie Brown" <romott(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Aeroelectric List - Hot Seat
Date: Oct 27, 2003
I had planned to put electric seat heaters in my Velocity, but I didn't get around to it before finishing the interior. But I ran across http://www.baproducts.com/rphb1101.htm for a 12 vdc electric blanket. I haven't tried them yet but this looks like a great idea compared to the seat heaters I found - they were running over $200 each. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: Double adapter for headset
Date: Oct 27, 2003
I often find that rental aeroplanes have four seats, but only two headset sockets, which makes for a dull trip for the hapless rear-seat passengers. Can anyone recommend a simple way of making a double adapter? Perhaps it's as simple as putting a couple of sockets in parallel, but I'm nervous about trying it in case I damage intercom, headsets or both. Any advice would be well appreciated. Thanks in anticipation. Nev -- Jodel D150 in progress UK ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Kenneth Melvin <melvinke(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Hot Seat
Charlie, see my response with their address and phone #. The web address is correct, but while Google comes up with a number of links to that, I cannot raise it directly today. Kenneth. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat Kenneth, I tried the link you supplied below, but it appears that it is not a valid web address. Charlie Kuss > >Try AT-LAST thermal products (www.4atlast.com). I have their heated seats in my car and RV4. wonderful product! >Kenneth Melvin, N36KM. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com >Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:31 pm >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > >> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia >> >> >> <> nice cars >> these days. >> >> Where to get them >> How much do they cost >> How much current do the take >> Has anyone used them in an experimental >> >> I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and >> not easy way >> to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm >> always to >> warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I >> thought ??? >> Nick RV-8 >> >> >> 10/26/2003 >> >> Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing >> like the >> motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, >> availability, >> flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, >> body coverage, >> etc. etc. >> >> See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place >> or google >> search for more ideas. >> >> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? >> >> >> _- >> _- >> report_- >> _- >> ======================================================================== >> >> >> >> > > == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Kenneth Melvin <melvinke(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Hot Seat
Their phone number when I last purchased from them a year ago was: 1-888-559-8871; address 169 Jenks Ave., Saint Paul, MN 55117. Ken Melvin. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ageless Wings Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat Mornin', Charlie and Kenneth... Yeah...it looks like 4atlast's website is down...don't know if it's temporary or permanent, but here is a list of online heated clothing suppliers I found while trying to find 4atlast: http://www.f6rider.com/Articles/heatedclothing.htm Harley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of >> Charlie Kuss >> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:07 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat >> >> >> >> >> Kenneth, >> I tried the link you supplied below, but it appears that it is >> not a valid web address. >> Charlie Kuss >> >> > >> >Try AT-LAST thermal products (www.4atlast.com). I have their >> heated seats in my car and RV4. wonderful product! >> >Kenneth Melvin, N36KM. >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com >> >Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:31 pm >> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat >> > >> >> >> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia >> >> >> >> >> >> <> >> nice cars >> >> these days. >> >> >> >> Where to get them >> >> How much do they cost >> >> How much current do the take >> >> Has anyone used them in an experimental >> >> >> >> I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and >> >> not easy way >> >> to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm >> >> always to >> >> warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I >> >> thought ??? >> >> Nick RV-8 >> >> >> >> >> 10/26/2003 >> >> >> >> Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing >> >> like the >> >> motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, >> >> availability, >> >> flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, >> >> body coverage, >> >> etc. etc. >> >> >> >> See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place >> >> or google >> >> search for more ideas. >> >> >> >> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? >> >> >> >> >> >> _- >> >> _- >> >> report_- >> >> _- >> >> >> ======================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> ========= >> ========= >> ========= >> ========= >> >> >> >> >> == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Double adapter for headset
> > >I often find that rental aeroplanes have four seats, but only two headset >sockets, which makes for a dull trip for the hapless rear-seat passengers. > >Can anyone recommend a simple way of making a double adapter? Perhaps it's >as simple as putting a couple of sockets in parallel, but I'm nervous about >trying it in case I damage intercom, headsets or both. > >Any advice would be well appreciated. Thanks in anticipation. Paralleling headsets all together on a single feed is exactly what the intercom does. Drive ahead with confidence. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "aronsond" <aronsond(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Seat
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Listers: I have seat heaters in my RV-4. The carbon fiber elements, wiring loom and switches/relays are all included. Go to: http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/afcarseathea.html Dave Aronson RV-4 N504RV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Ferrell" <bferrell(at)123mail.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > > I purchased these for my Velocity (I haven't had them on yet, they're out > for uphostery now).... They're two temperature units. > > http://store.yahoo.com/sports-imports/afcarseathea.html > > Brett > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <BAKEROCB(at)aol.com> > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hot Seat > > > > > > AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Nick Gaglia > > > > > > < > these days. > > > > Where to get them > > How much do they cost > > How much current do the take > > Has anyone used them in an experimental > > > > I'm building an RV-8 and I'm told the rear seat can be cold and not easy > way > > to get heat back there, My wife is already cold blooded and I'm always to > > warm. In our car she turns on her seat heater and loves it. So I thought > ??? > > Nick RV-8 >> > > > > 10/26/2003 > > > > Hello Nick, Instead why not go for electrically heated clothing like the > > motorcycle types use? Several advantages: weight, portability, > availability, > > flexibility, style, ease of installation, electrical efficiency, body > coverage, > > etc. etc. > > > > See <> for one source. Visit a motorcycle place or google > > search for more ideas. > > > > 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Lightspeed/GRT 4000 Tach Problem
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Chris Heitman asked this question on the RV List a few weeks ago and got no replies. Since I have the same problem, I will ask again. I have a GRT 4000 engine monitor and Lightspeed Plasma II electronic ignition. I am getting a zero reading on the GRT tach. Pulses is set to 2 as specifies by Lightspeed. Has anyone gotten this combo to work? Ross Mickey Awaiting inspection RV6A 9PT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: DIY sexy flap switch . . .
>Thanks, Bob. As they say, "You da man!" > >BTW, want to sell the one you just made? (Just kidding.) Sure, send me your address and you can have it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Seat Heaters
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com>
I did research on seat heaters myself. If you have not done your seats yet, imbed the heater stips in the upholstery like the car manufacturers do. Run the proper wires to a switch and concealed connector for the GIB. This will eliminate wires attached to cigarette plugs going to heated vests, or blankets. I dunno about you, but wires all over the cockipt offends my sense of cockpit style. When it's warm, or when your safety of flight gear is drawing a bunch of current, don't turn it on. Weight is very low, the current draw is not. I've also included a site with inflatable lumbar pads you can imbed in the seat foam. See them at: http://home.flash.net/~duetto/general/gencatalog.htm http://store.miataparts.org/gomseatheat.html http://www.seats4cars.com/products/lumbar.htm Arthur Treff Rv-8 Fastback (wiring) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org>
Subject: Re: Double adapter for headset
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Thanks, Bob, that's just the sort of info I like! I never realised how expensive the aviation sockets are. I'm surprised that no-one has ever consider swapping for more common ones (2.5mm and 3.5mm jack plugs for example). Nev -- Jodel D-150 in progress UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Double adapter for headset > >I often find that rental aeroplanes have four seats, but only two headset > >sockets, which makes for a dull trip for the hapless rear-seat passengers. > > > >Can anyone recommend a simple way of making a double adapter? Perhaps it's > >as simple as putting a couple of sockets in parallel, but I'm nervous about > >trying it in case I damage intercom, headsets or both. > > > >Any advice would be well appreciated. Thanks in anticipation. > > Paralleling headsets all together on a single feed is exactly > what the intercom does. Drive ahead with confidence. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Subject: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions
From: royt.or(at)netzero.com
Jim, The Radio Shack PN that I think is equivalent to the Boostaroo is 33-1109. Radio Shack web page lists it for $21.99. My GMA340 installation had sufficient volume with my CD player to hear the tunes when the engine was not running, but not sufficient volume when the engine was running. The Radio Shack volume booster gives sufficient volume with the setup. Regards, Roy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: wiring Nova and Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos lights
I seem to recall a schematic for cleanly (noise wise) wiring the Nova supplies using the foil shielded triple wire they supply but can't seem to find it, can someone refresh my memory? Trying to find the cleanest way to do something with the drain wire and also suggested wire sizes going out to the nav/pos lights (do I really need an independent ground to the single point firewall ground or will a twisted pair work?). Thanks folks. Joa --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
Date: Oct 27, 2003
I have a large capacity Precision alternator (installed) that I would like to limit for a basic VFR-only RV-9A. I have installed the Vans 40 amp shunt. I notice that the smallest current limiter in the B&C catalogue is also 40 amps (C905-40). I was looking for about 35 amps so as to not having any nuisance problems. Is this a problem? I don't want to risk blowing the Vans 40 amp shunt. The extra amps would be a nice cushion for the seat heaters and that initial load on the pitot tube heater. This seems safe - but I want to be certain. Thanks for any help. Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop 90 plus % Complete - electrical ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Dan Brown <dan(at)familybrown.org>
Subject: Re: Double adapter for headset
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Neville Kilford wrote: | I never realised how expensive the aviation sockets are. I'm surprised that | no-one has ever consider swapping for more common ones (2.5mm and 3.5mm jack | plugs for example). Jim Wier, for one, has. http://www.rst-engr.com/rst/magazine/karmic2.pdf - -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan(at)familybrown.org "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." ~ -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/nbiRyQGUivXxtkERArSVAKCa139+1nEtL+/FDCSRvIbdQ0I5FACgsRwU FAqr2lG7XecCUj1fxtHKLio=37n8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I might not understand your question exactly, but I think you are asking whether the shunt can be damaged by running too much current through it. If yes, please read the following... If not, please ignore. The shunt is a resistor of a precisely known value. It is designed to give a calibrated voltage drop at a rated current. This voltage is then fed into a specially calibrated voltmeter with a scale that reads in units of current (appropriate for the shunt). The shunt that I think you are talking about is rated to have a 50mV drop when 40A are passing through it. If you pump more amps through it, the voltage drop across it will increase. So, the short answer is that I don't think you will damage the shunt by 'over driving' it, per se. The only bad effect you might encounter is if you are using a mechanical meter. The meter may read full scale when it receives a 50mV signal. Any more than that, and it may tend to damage the mechanism. A little over drive, ocassionally, shouldn't really hurt it though. The other thing to ponder is how much power you are asking the shunt to dissipate... P = I * V. In this case, that's 40A * 50mV = 2W. That's kind of a lot, but by the same token, these shunts are designed to be fairly stable with temperature. This suggests that it is a resistor rated for a lot of power, so 2W is probably not a big deal. If you momentarily loade it to 3W (that's 60A), its probably still okay, and 4W (that's 80A) might be okay with the shunt too, though Amperage readings might get a little wacky because of heating. So, I don't think you need a current limiter to protect the shunt, though you may want one for other design considerations. Hope that helps. Matt- N34RD > > > I have a large capacity Precision alternator (installed) that I would > like to limit for a basic VFR-only RV-9A. > > I have installed the Vans 40 amp shunt. I notice that the smallest > current limiter in the B&C catalogue is also 40 amps (C905-40). I was > looking for about 35 amps so as to not having any nuisance problems. > > Is this a problem? I don't want to risk blowing the Vans 40 amp shunt. > The extra amps would be a nice cushion for the seat heaters and that > initial load on the pitot tube heater. > > This seems safe - but I want to be certain. Thanks for any help. > Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop > 90 plus % Complete - electrical > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Pete Waters <pedroagua(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ACFT CONFIG SPREADSHEET
Sure, I'll e-mail it to you when I get home. It is in fact in Excel. It's a work in progress, but it tracks the airplane parts by part number, serial number, and date installed. Just part of my effort to start figuring out this airplane I bought. If anybody else wants a copy, e-mail me. Pedro BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote: Pete Wrote <<....SKIP.......For $20 it was worth it for me to just replace the VR so that I could write a model and part number on the massive airplane configuration spreadsheet I'm gradually constructing.....SKIP..... Pete Waters>> 10/26/2003 Hello Pete, I like this idea. Could you send me your spreadsheet as an attachment to an email if it is in Excel? I'd like to use the format to construct a similar document for my airplane. Many thanks. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: BUS / Fuse Blocks
Date: Oct 27, 2003
Where are the RV6 / 7 builders putting the primary and secondary fuse blocks in the aircraft? I'm having a difficult time finding room for the two regulators and fuse blocks and need some creative help. Regards, David RV6-A (wiring) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: wiring Nova and Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos lights
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
> I seem to recall a schematic for cleanly (noise wise) wiring > the Nova supplies using the foil shielded triple wire they > supply but can't seem to find it, can someone refresh my memory? > > Trying to find the cleanest way to do something with the > drain wire and also suggested wire sizes going out to the > nav/pos lights (do I really need an independent ground to the > single point firewall ground or will a twisted pair work?). Twisted pair isn't designed to reduce radiated noise. The conductors don't actually block one another from transmitting, at least not much. You need coaxial, or some other type of surround-shielding for that. (How that works is a Physics question, pick up any Electricity and Magnetism text for a lecture on one of the more boring aspects of electricity, unless you love math.) What twisted pair is really designed to do is RECEIVE noise equally in both wires. It sounds odd to want to double the received noise, but in a rather elegant engineering trick, the receiver simply subtracts the two signals from one other, cancelling the noise, and leaving it with the original signal. Without getting into the details, more twists per inch is more expensive (more copper in 1000 ft. of cable) but better at supporting noise rejection (more likely to induce the noise perfectly equally). This is one of the deciding factors in the higher "CAT" ratings you see - CAT5e vs. CAT5, for instance. So, if you really care about radiating noise, use shielded wire, but don't waste your money on twisted pair. I'm running a CAN bus so I may have a use for it, but I can't imagine many other general aviation uses that would REQUIRE it. Back to your original questions: 1. B&C sells foil shielded three-wire cable. Unfortunately, nothing larger than 22AWG, so check the power requirements for your lights. 2. Connect the drain wire to ground on ONE END of the cable (preferably at a single-point ground near the battery). 3. Wire sizes require knowledge of current requirements - how much current will be passing through these lights? (Do you have a wattage rating? Does the Nova supply have details on this?) 4. You don't NEED an independent ground, but if you form a ground loop those wires will become antennae and you'll be radiating noise more surely than not using shielded wire. You CAN share a single return wire, though, although opinions vary for the wisdom of this method. Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: wiring Nova and Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos lights
Thanks for your reply. Just now I used a battery and figured out where all the wires on the strobe/nav/pos head go.... Red w/pin---------strobe White w/pin------- grounds to case Black w/pin-------- grounds to case Red--------nav + Red-------- position + Black------- position ground (not to case) Case-------- has a braided line captured between the case and the aluminum mount I'm using the triple wire I got from Nova. It has the pinned red/white/black wire plus a bare stranded wire (the "drain" I believe). I will also have 18 ga positive and ground wires going to my supply (through a fuse and switch). 1. What should I do with the drain wires? 2. What should I do about the grounds that ground to the case of the strobe head (and hence my airframe unless I completely insulate the case from the airframe which mechanically would be a pain)? What I don't get is why they have the strobe and nav grounding to the case but not the position light (it has it's own independent black wire ground). Any ideas? Bob, would a simple diagram make a good addition to your book? I know it would sure help me out and I believe others using the Aeroflashes and the Whelans (they are similar I believe). Thanks folks. Sorry for being so dense on this one but I've spent enough time and money trying to keep noise out to this stage that I want to get this one right too. Joa --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: google conversion tool
Some of you probably already know this but Google has a feature for doing unit conversions that is *very* slick. Highly case and syntax insensitive so it's easy to use. Check it out. http://www.google.com/help/features.html#calculator Joa --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: external power jack and crowbar OV module
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Can somebody please help me. During this very cold time in Switzerland I get troubles with my 17Ah Panasonic, if the engine starts not at the first time, or if the plane sits for several weeks. So I'm going to fit the Piper/Cole Hersee connector. I've searched yesterday through the Bob's site as well as the B and C site but could not find the crowbar OV module as a part. Is this module not available as a part, or did I just miss it? Many thanks for pinpointing Werner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Ground loop ...
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Hi all, I have heard about "ground loop". Who can tell me more or indicate where are the things I have to read ? I am thinking about the wiring of my MCR SPORTSTER. I will have a ground block under the seats and a mini battery bus (fuse holder) for the trim and flaps (and can be later for the heating seats!!). I would have also a ground block on the firewall (engine side) and finally the principal bus, the essential bus and the main ground block behind of instrument panel. For information, MCR SPORTSTER is a composite carbon epoxy aircraft and the tank is located between the firewall and the instrument panel. Do I risk problems with this ground blocks layout ? Thank you for your answers. Michel RIAZUELO MCR SPORTSTER in progress ... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: external power jack and crowbar OV module
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Hi Werner, Since the people at B&C changed their site layout things are hard to find, go to http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 Scroll down the page about 3/4 and you will find what you are seeking. Try putting a solar cell type charger on your battery, it should help some. Lots of luck, Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: external power jack and crowbar OV module > > Can somebody please help me. > > During this very cold time in Switzerland I get troubles with my 17Ah > Panasonic, if the engine starts not at the first time, or if the plane sits > for several weeks. So I'm going to fit the Piper/Cole Hersee connector. > > I've searched yesterday through the Bob's site as well as the B and C site > but could not find the crowbar OV module as a part. > > Is this module not available as a part, or did I just miss it? > > Many thanks for pinpointing > > Werner > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: external power jack and crowbar OV module
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Hello Jim, thanks for the help, exactly what I've searched for, I did search everywhere (would have expected to see it close to the regulators) but have overseen it in the MISC section. A sercah function would help a lot. I've copied todd to let him know. Many thanks Werner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: external power jack and crowbar OV module > > Hi Werner, > > Since the people at B&C changed their site layout things are hard to find, > go to > http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 > Scroll down the page about 3/4 and you will find what you are seeking. > Try putting a solar cell type charger on your battery, it should help some. > > Lots of luck, > > Jim in Kelowna > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: external power jack and crowbar OV module > > > > > > > Can somebody please help me. > > > > During this very cold time in Switzerland I get troubles with my 17Ah > > Panasonic, if the engine starts not at the first time, or if the plane > sits > > for several weeks. So I'm going to fit the Piper/Cole Hersee connector. > > > > I've searched yesterday through the Bob's site as well as the B and C site > > but could not find the crowbar OV module as a part. > > > > Is this module not available as a part, or did I just miss it? > > > > Many thanks for pinpointing > > > > Werner > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CBFLESHREN(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Subject: Re: google conversion tool
< Some of you probably already know this but Google has a feature for doing unit conversions that is *very* slick. Highly case and syntax insensitive so it's easy to use. Check it out. http://www.google.com/help/features.html#calculator And for those that have not heard of this great FREE Conversion Download see this, less than 5 kilobyte jewel: http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/dl.asp Chris Fleshren ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> module
Subject: Re: external power jack and crowbar OV
module module > > >Can somebody please help me. > >During this very cold time in Switzerland I get troubles with my 17Ah >Panasonic, if the engine starts not at the first time, or if the plane sits >for several weeks. So I'm going to fit the Piper/Cole Hersee connector. > >I've searched yesterday through the Bob's site as well as the B and C site >but could not find the crowbar OV module as a part. > >Is this module not available as a part, or did I just miss it? > >Many thanks for pinpointing It's 3/4 of the way down the page at http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
> > >I have a large capacity Precision alternator (installed) that I would like >to limit for a basic VFR-only RV-9A. > >I have installed the Vans 40 amp shunt. I notice that the smallest current >limiter in the B&C catalogue is also 40 amps (C905-40). I was looking for >about 35 amps so as to not having any nuisance problems. > >Is this a problem? I don't want to risk blowing the Vans 40 amp shunt. The >extra amps would be a nice cushion for the seat heaters and that initial >load on the pitot tube heater. > >This seems safe - but I want to be certain. Thanks for any help. The shut's rating has more to do with calibration than with maximum allowable current limits. The ANL "limiters" are just really robust fuses and you use them to protect wires from hard faults. In this case, shorted diodes in the alternator are highest risk (although quite small with modern alternators) fault potential. The selection of a limiter has almost no relationship with the size of you ammeter shunt and no relationship for "protecting" it. What is the capacity of your alternator? You cited "large capacity" but with no number to tell us what "large capacity" means. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> strobe/nav/pos lights
Subject: Re: wiring Nova and Aeroflash
strobe/nav/pos lights strobe/nav/pos lights > > > >I seem to recall a schematic for cleanly (noise wise) wiring the Nova >supplies using the foil shielded triple wire they supply but can't seem to >find it, can someone refresh my memory? > >Trying to find the cleanest way to do something with the drain wire and >also suggested wire sizes going out to the nav/pos lights (do I really >need an independent ground to the single point firewall ground or will a >twisted pair work?). Extend the drain wire with a pigtail of 22 or 20AWG wire and ground to mounting screws that hold power supply on your airplane. If airplane is metal, ground power supply locally to airframe. If composite, a parallel route pair taken to vicinity of single-point ground is good . . . then break out (+) wire to continue on to strobe switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Alt Field question
I have the crowbar OV module and relay installed and just found a possible problem. I was doing a engine run up and tried to turn on the Alt Field, It would not turn on. On the next engine run up I turned the field on before engine start and everything is fine. If the Alt Field breaker pops for what ever reason I will not be able to reset it in flight. Is this normal? Unfortunately I followed the Van's wiring before I got turned onto the Aero Electric book. Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Fastons
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Bob (et al), I've read your various epistles on Fastons and I fully agree. My experience is that the Faston to quick-fit connections are superior in many ways to most other fastening methods. I do a lot of design with Fastons and Mosfets that invariably leads to the issue of how much current a female Faston and the mating pcb "quick-fit" terminal is rated for. Info is hard to come by. My presumption is -- if Fastons are sold in AWG 10 sizes-- then it is only reasonable that the proper quick-fit terminal should be assumed to carry the rated AWG 10 ampacity. (Which depends more on the wire insulation melting point than anything else.) Aye??? Good reference on ampacity---http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/3.html (Faston is a trademark of Aircraft & Marine Products). Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - H. L. Mencken ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> strobe/nav/pos lights
Subject: wiring Nova and Aeroflash
strobe/nav/pos lights strobe/nav/pos lights > >Twisted pair isn't designed to reduce radiated noise. The conductors don't >actually block one another from transmitting, at least not much. You need >coaxial, or some other type of surround-shielding for that. (How that >works is a Physics question, pick up any Electricity and Magnetism text >for a lecture on one of the more boring aspects of electricity, unless you >love math.) Actually, noise propagation modes are equal in both directions. A single strand of wire in space has the same ability to radiate noise as it does to pick it up. The only difference between the wire's role in a noise problem is whether it carries signals of a potential victim system or antagonist system. So, twisting is a good thing to do to ward off noises that propagate MAGNETICALLY while shielding puts a muzzle on ELECTROSTATIC dragons. >Back to your original questions: >1. B&C sells foil shielded three-wire cable. Unfortunately, nothing larger >than 22AWG, so check the power requirements for your lights. B&C's shielded wires are braided and yes, they are 22AWG. Members on the list have reported good results with substituting this wire for the fatter Beldfoil, PVC insulated wire shipped with most strobe kits. Also, within the last few weeks, someone posted a mail-order source for the Beldfoil wire by the foot. I'd appreciate a repeat post. I'll file it away in a more accessible location. >2. Connect the drain wire to ground on ONE END of the cable (preferably at >a single-point ground near the battery). I doubt that any installation manual for a strobe system has suggested extending the shield this far. It's designed to carry VERY TINY currents generated by capacitive coupling between bundles and can be taken to any convenient local ground . . . for strobes this is usually case ground at the power supply's mounting bolts. Are you in possession of installation instructions for the Nova system? What do they show? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
> > >I might not understand your question exactly, but I think you >are asking whether the shunt can be damaged by running too much >current through it. . . . > . . .its probably still >okay, and 4W (that's 80A) might be okay with the shunt too, though >Amperage readings might get a little wacky because of heating. > >So, I don't think you need a current limiter to protect the shunt, >though you may want one for other design considerations. > >Hope that helps. A well crafted answer sir. Thank you. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Caldwell" <racaldwell(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: BUS / Fuse Blocks
Date: Oct 28, 2003
David, My RV-6 has a sliding canopy so the bulkhead behind the panel is where I mounted the fuse blocks. Since I have the RMI uMonitor, I had space left in the panel for a nice sized storage box on the right side. I made the rear wall of the box a door that swings out for access to the fuses. Rick Caldwell RV-6 136RC One Design 137RC >Where are the RV6 / 7 builders putting the primary and secondary fuse >blocks in the aircraft? I'm having a difficult time finding room for >the two regulators and fuse blocks and need some creative help. > >Regards, > >David >RV6-A (wiring) Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your current Internet access and enjoy patented spam control and more. Get two months FREE! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: wiring Nova and Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos lights
The Nova instructions aren't the best and don't even show connections to the strobes, only to the unit. Here's the instructions neverless... http://www.strobe.com/pdfs/eps40X-install.pdf Joa ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Are you in possession of installation instructions for the Nova system? What do they show? Bob . . . --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Pete Waters <pedroagua(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Aircraft Configuration Spreadsheet
chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net, Hebeard2(at)aol.com, lhelming(at)sigecom.net, aletherington(at)rogers.com, VE3LVO(at)rac.ca Here y'all go. This is very rough right now; I'd say on the scale of Version 1.0 and Version 2.0, it's more like Version 0.5. But you get the idea. I'm also thinking of making, in PowerPoint or something like that, a paper block diagram of the airplane. It could be hyperlinked to the spreadsheet entries, so, fo example, if you clicked ont he "alternator" box on the block diagram, it would lead you to the entry in the spreadsheet. Also, vice-versa, from spreadsheet to block diagram. All in all this will involve a lot of mouse-clicking, and may be way too anal-retentive, but I think it's the best way to organize one's thoughts about the complex beasts that we're building and flying. I'm not smart enough to keep it all straight in my head. If anybody else wants a copy let me know. Pedro --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: landing/taxi lights
Hello, listers Does anyone have URL to headlights technical specifications? I have one 7610 and one 7606 (sealed beam halogen, round) that I was thinking on installing in the wings of my CH601, but noticed that many RVs use the MR-16. Wonder how they (and others, like JC Whitney's 88ZX9844X, http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/4352.JPG , etc.) compare?? Any pointers? Thanks in advance Carlos Sa Montreal, Canada Ch601-HD, plans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Subject: Re: landing/taxi lights
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Sylvania (among others) makes replacements for all of the standard halogen sealed beam headlamps. Information can be found here. Most of these lamps can be found in the automotive section at Walmart. http://www.sylvaniaautocatalog.com/sylvania/sealedbeams.asp# Regards, Matt- N34RD > > Hello, listers > > Does anyone have URL to headlights technical specifications? > > I have one 7610 and one 7606 (sealed beam halogen, round) that I was > thinking on installing in the wings of my CH601, but noticed that many > RVs use the MR-16. Wonder how they (and others, like JC Whitney's > 88ZX9844X, http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/4352.JPG , etc.) compare?? > > Any pointers? > > > Thanks in advance > > > Carlos Sa > Montreal, Canada > Ch601-HD, plans > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Inductive current measuring device ....
When I was in the auto repair business (long ago in another life) there were inductive current measuring devices that clamped over, say, an alternator B+ lead and measured output pretty accurately. I don't want to run an extra 10' run of wire just to have an ammeter. I would prefer to have a pickup on the B+ cable just before the Alt-Mstr wired to the panel with 24 awg. Then I could wire the other side of Alt-Mstr to battery and one long line to the buss' up front. Needs to be very affordable, moderately accurate and easy to install ... Jim S. Jim Sower Crossville, TN; Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Subject: Run away alternator scenario
10/28/2003 Hello Bob Nuckolls, Below is a copy of a previous posting on the list. Can you please comment on the validity of this scenario and the proposed solution? Thank you. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/? ----------------------COPY OF 03/29/03 POSTING FOLLOWS---------------------------------- <<From: "Mike Lehman" <LehmansMtl(at)netzero.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Systems ...................SKIP...............We've got an external voltage regulator powered via a 5 amp field supply breaker. However, virtually all light aircraft then power the field breaker from the battery side of the 'B' lead fuse/breaker (typically 40 to 60 amps rating). If this main breaker/fuse opens, the VR senses low voltage and maximizes alternator field current in the impossible attempt to restore 13.8 to 14.5 volts on the disconnected buss. The result is 100+ volts at the alternator B terminal and sometimes severe alternator damage involving the faults mentioned. In my opinion, the field supply breaker should be powered from the alternator side of the main breaker. Regards, Mike>> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Inductive current measuring device ....
Date: Oct 28, 2003
>there were inductive current measuring devices that clamped over, say, an alternator B+ >lead and measured output pretty accurately. >Jim Sower Jim, It used a hall effect sensor (for AC you can use a clamp-on transformer...) There aren't many ways to do this job, but this looks like a good one. See these guys. http://www.allegromicro.com/hall/currentsensor.asp Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Bob, Matt and others: Let me state my question with a little more info - I basically don't even know the question but I think I need to understand this now. I am using your Z-2 diagram with the always hot bus. I have a large Prestolite alternator (installed) that I would like to limit for a VFR-only RV-9A. It is an ALX series at 70 amps. I want to keep the alternator. It is a tight fit - but it does fit. Note: almost all work - engine with all appliances and prop hardware, cowling, wiring, heat shields, etc., are finished. Change at this stage is not easy. I have installed the Vans 40 amp shunt, wire, busses, etc., based upon an overall 40 amp design. Matt Prather stated "I might not understand your question exactly, but I think you are asking whether the shunt can be damaged by running too much current through it........." That's my question! But his beautiful answer just confuses me. All I know is that I have a voltage regulator and OVM to limit the voltage. It seems like I should have a mechanism to limit the amperage output from 70 to no more that 40 amps. The only "mechanism" I have in the electron stream is a 40 amp shunt (a piece of Bakelite with a flat bar). Do I just need a simple 35 or 40 fuse/circuit breaker on the main bus (#8 wire from battery contactor) ??? Thanks for any help in knocking down this mental block. Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop 90 plus % Complete - electrical ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Ground Loop
> From: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr> > I have heard about "ground loop". Who can tell me more or > indicate where are the things I have to read ? Michel, In the context of airplanes, the goal when installing radios, intercoms, and entertainment systems is to NOT hear alternator whine, strobe squeal, electric gyro brush noise, and magneto pulses in your headphones (or have others hear these noises in your radio transmissions). An installation which has the audio contaminated with these undesirable noises is said to have "ground loops" (the most likely cause), while one where the audio is "clean" does not. In most metal airframes, the airframe itself is used as a conductor for the minus side of the power distribution. Each device has a short minus wire which is grounded locally, or some devices (like strobe power packs) ground through the case. In non-metallic airframes, you have to explicitly run minus supply wires to these remote devices. You get to choose if each of these runs all the way back to the battery minus terminal (radial grounds), or if you run a heavy ground bus from the battery minus terminal, and then ground the remote devices to this (ground tree). As far as keeping noise out of the audio, the former is preferable, but not absolutely required. In a metal airframe, you don't get that choice. If the current flowing to/from these remote devices happens to have frequency components in the audible range (alternator ripple, strobe power supply, gyro brushes, magneto Primary leads), and there is some way for these currents to "couple" into the audio wiring, then you would hear the noise mixed with whatever audio you are listening to... The goal when installing is to prevent "coupling" between the noise currents and the audio system. Both airframes and copper ground trees are slightly resistive, and the current flowing to/from the various devices causes a voltage drop along the airframe/ground tree wiring. In a well designed ground distribution system, the ground drops may be only a few tens of milliVolts (mV), but that is enough to contaminate the audio if these drops are allowed to "couple" into the audio wiring. In the worst case, the ground drops might be as high as hundreds of mV. A bad example of this is in my Cessna 182, where a 60A alternator is mounted on the engine, and the battery is mounted in the aft end of the fuselage (for weight distribution). The alternator puts out 60A of audible ripple current, which flows from the ground stud of the alternator, through the ground strap to the engine crankcase, through the engine, through another ground strap across the rubber engine mount to the motor mount cradle, to the fire wall, along the fuselage under the cabin floor to the aft fuselage, to the battery ground strap, and finally into the minus terminal of the battery. Imagine taking two very long clip leads; connect one to the alternator frame, and the other to the battery minus terminal. Bring the other two ends of the clip leads into the cabin, and connect them to the tip and barrel of a standard aviation headset which you are wearing. Now start the engine and make sure the alternator is charging. The total ground voltage drop between the clip leads (alternator all the way to the battery minus) will be plainly audible in the headset. Obviously, the ground drop is large enough to create a voltage signal level almost as big as what would normally be driving the headsets. So how do you prevent the noise sources from "coupling" into the audio system? Some people think that the coupling is inductive or capacitive, and that "shielding" is key to eliminating contaminated audio. Others think that "filtering" the noise sources is the key, but both of these methods are only secondary, and rarely fix the underlying problem. The primary cause of audio contamination is allowing the audio system to connect to the airframe power ground (or ground wiring) at more than ONE location (violating the principle of "single point ground"). If the audio system connects into the current carrying ground system at multiple places ("ground loop"), the ground voltage drops that exist between the multiple grounding points can add in series with the audio signals, just like the clip leads/headphone test above. Mic audio level is only a few hundred mV, so it is easy to get a few tens of mV of alternator ripple between the radio stack and the airframe point where the mic jack is "grounded" if you don't take steps to prevent the mic jack sleeve from coming in contact with the airframe. The correct way to wire your audio is to have a completely separate ground wire between each disparate audio item, and then cross tie this whole "floating audio ground" to the airframe (in a metal airframe) or to the power ground bus (in a non-metallic airframe) in just exactly ONE place... This avoids having the power ground drops appearing between a radio output and its headphone jack, for example. This requires some mechanical ingenuity. For example, when mounting mic and headphone jacks, you have to use insulating shoulder washers to keep the threaded sleeve from touching the airframe. Since they are not locally grounded, an additional ground wire from each jack has to run back to the intercom/audio panel... Usually, I use shielded wire for all of the jack wiring, where the shield is used for the jack sleeves, and the conductors inside are used for PTT, Mic Tip, R and L headphone. Okay, so we now understand "single point ground", but what happens in the radio stack? It turns out that all of the standard avionics (King, Garmin, UPSat, Narco, uAir) connects the audio and power grounds internally to the case of each radio, which contacts the tray, which is grounded by virtue of the rack being fastened into the rails in the panel, which is in turn connected to the airframe structure. You get no choice about this, you are stuck with it, especially in a Cessna or Mooney. If you are creating the panel yourself, then maybe you can control things. When installing your radios/audio panel into a metal aircraft, the radio rack stack becomes the defacto single point ground for the entire audio/avionics suite. When you make your audio wiring harnesses, you have to take this into consideration. The best you can do is not allowing any of the remotely mounted parts of the audio system from contacting the airframe locally. This is why the cabin speaker needs to have two wires running from it to the audio panel, one of which is grounded at the rear of the audio panel. Why each mic and headphone jack brings its sleeve all the way to the rear connector of the audio panel/intercom, etc, etc. In a non-metallic airplane, you could use the instrument panel as a ground plane for all of the radios/audio stuff, and purposefully keep the alternator and strobe currents out of the panel area. Don't ground the electric gyros to the panel (ie run the gyro minus lead more directly to the battery minus). This raises some interesting problems. For example, suppose you have a nice clean audio system (no whine or squeals), and you want to add a CD player/AM/FM entertainment system that you want to power from the aircraft power. Your stack is full, so you have to mount the CD system someplace else, like in the center console. The CD system has an "audio ground" and it has a "power ground" pin. Where do you tie these? First, take an Ohmmeter, and measure between the CD system's audio and power ground pins, and the case. There is a 99% probability that the cheapskate who designed it tied both of these to the CD system's case, which poses the following dilemmas: When you screw the CD system into the console (assuming a metal mounting structure), for better or worse, you have now tied the CD system to a ground removed from the one that the rest of all your radio stack is tied to. If there is a big preexisting ground drop in the airframe between the radio stack and the center console, then you are screwed, because there is nothing you can two with the as yet unconnected CD system audio and power ground wires which will undo this. The only hope is to "isolate" the CD system by using some sort of insulating mounting which keeps it from grounding through its case. Now you still have two "ground" wires to hook up. The only place where these can be connected without violating the "single point ground" for the entire audio system is to tie the power ground to the rails of the radio rack (same place as where the radios are presently grounded), and tie the audio ground to the audio panel. Space permitting, you are way better off mounting the CD system in the center radio stack where it doesnt matter if its case touches the rails. So, in summary: When wiring a metal airframe, use the airframe as the ground return path for all non-audio stuff. Mount all of your radios/audio panel/intercom/entertainment in the radio stack. Connect the power grounds from all the avionics to a single point electrically connected to the rack assembly. Connect all of the audio grounds to the rear of the audio switching panel. Tie all sleeves from remotely-mounted isolated mic/headphone jacks to the intercom which in turn should be grounded only to audio switching panel. Any other piece of audio equipment should be "floated" locally, its power ground tied to the radio racks, and its audio ground brought up to the switching panel. When wiring a non-metallic airframe, connect all of the non-audio stuff to a network of ground wires where ultimately each item has a path back to the minus terminal of the battery. Since some of these paths may be shared, the current carrying capacity of the ground wires has to be considered. When wiring all of your avionics/audio items, tie all grounds (both power and audio) to a single point located on or near the radio rack(s). Tie just ONE single jumper wire from the radio grounds to the power ground bus. Mike Mladejovsky, PhD EE Skylane '1MM Pacer '00Z ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Alex Balic <alex157(at)direcway.com>
Subject: coax terminations and grounding a pusher
I am trying to attach some connectors to my RG59 coax- the connectors come with 3 pieces- the body which fits over the inner insulator (and possibly under the outer sleeve), the conductor tip, and the crimp sleeve. Although the sleeve fits over the cable easily, it won't even come close to fitting over the cable sheath/connector body, after the body is inserted into the cable end- is this supposed to be assembled by removing the jacketing leaving only the braid, and crimping that down to the body? it would seem that that would be a weaker system than leaving the jacketing on, but really, it doesn't even come close to sliding over once the body is inserted- am I missing something here? I looked in the book, but all of the connector types there use threaded connectors, which I can go and get too I suppose, but I have these on hand. Also, about the grounding , it is mentioned that a composite pusher aircraft leads to ground loops on the engine instruments, but I could not find a good solution to this presented other than increasing the wire diameter- I have a ground through the firewall, and will have a second in the front- which could come directly from the battery, and not have to come to the front from the rear ground - is this correct? I don't want to have a problem with the indications on my instruments... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> strobe/nav/pos lights
Subject: wiring Nova and Aeroflash
strobe/nav/pos lights strobe/nav/pos lights > > > >The Nova instructions aren't the best and don't even show connections to >the strobes, only to the unit. > >Here's the instructions neverless... > >http://www.strobe.com/pdfs/eps40X-install.pdf Okay, I just dropped them a note to ask what their recommendations were with respect to shield grounds. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: coax terminations and grounding a pusher
> >I am trying to attach some connectors to my RG59 coax- RG59???? this is television coax . . . 75 ohm, I'd hope you were dealing with RG-58 and better yet, RG-400 >the connectors come >with 3 pieces- the body which fits over the inner insulator (and possibly >under the outer sleeve), the conductor tip, and the crimp sleeve. Although >the sleeve fits over the cable easily, it won't even come close to fitting >over the cable sheath/connector body, after the body is inserted into the >cable end- is this supposed to be assembled by removing the jacketing >leaving only the braid, and crimping that down to the body? it would seem >that that would be a weaker system than leaving the jacketing on, but >really, it doesn't even come close to sliding over once the body is >inserted- am I missing something here? I looked in the book, but all of the >connector types there use threaded connectors, which I can go and get too I >suppose, but I have these on hand. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf >Also, about the grounding , it is mentioned that a composite pusher aircraft >leads to ground loops on the engine instruments, but I could not find a good >solution to this presented other than increasing the wire diameter- I have a >ground through the firewall, and will have a second in the front- which >could come directly from the battery, and not have to come to the front from >the rear ground - is this correct? I don't want to have a problem with the >indications on my instruments... Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? If not, at least download the update chapters available from my website. This one on grounding at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch5-9.pdf and this on system architecture at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf and this on system reliablity at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf If you find these chapters useful, then I'd recommend you get the whole book at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: AMP / Cannon Connectors
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to 'break' a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than two pieces. However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have workable electronics. What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. Regards, David ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
> > >Bob, Matt and others: > >Let me state my question with a little more info - I basically don't even >know the question but I think I need to understand this now. I am using >your Z-2 diagram with the always hot bus. > >I have a large Prestolite alternator (installed) that I would like to limit >for a VFR-only RV-9A. It is an ALX series at 70 amps. I want to keep the >alternator. It is a tight fit - but it does fit. Note: almost all work - >engine with all appliances and prop hardware, cowling, wiring, heat shields, >etc., are finished. Change at this stage is not easy. I have installed the >Vans 40 amp shunt, wire, busses, etc., based upon an overall 40 amp design. There is no practical way to de-rate an alternator. If it's a 70A machine, then there are times when your airplane's electrical system will demand and get all 70A out of it and then some. So if it's a 70A machine, wire it up like you're going to use it all even if you don't intend to. 4AWG b-lead feeder and ANL-60 limiter is recommended. >Matt Prather stated "I might not understand your question exactly, but I >think you are asking whether the shunt can be damaged by running too much >current through it........." > >That's my question! But his beautiful answer just confuses me. All I know >is that I have a voltage regulator and OVM to limit the voltage. It seems >like I should have a mechanism to limit the amperage output from 70 to no >more that 40 amps. The only "mechanism" I have in the electron stream is a >40 amp shunt (a piece of Bakelite with a flat bar). Do I just need a simple >35 or 40 fuse/circuit breaker on the main bus (#8 wire from battery >contactor) ??? None of those devices have any control over the alternator's output. Generators will willingly deliver more than their rated current (burns brushes, throws solder off the commutator) so generator output was indeed limted by features built into the regulator (See Chapter 4 in the 'Connection). Alternators are inherently current limited by their magnetic design (See chapter 3 of the 'Connection) so there is no need for an alternator regulator to sense alternator load current . . . much less do anything about it. The 40A shunt will be just fine . . . but there will be short periods of time after engine starting that the loadmeter will be "pegged" until the battery charges up. This is not a big deal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Fwd: Reply from Nova RE: Installation Diagrams
Just got this response from Nova as to their recommendations for shield ground treatment. Steve didn't mention why it wasn't covered in the installation manual but his recommendations were consistent with my own . . . Bob . . . >Subject: RE: Strobe System Installation Diagrams >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:54:51 -0500 >X-MS-Has-Attach: >X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: >Thread-Topic: Strobe System Installation Diagrams >Thread-Index: AcOdluDGjX/2Lyz4QsiUJHK/bHwxPgAF7Pqg >From: "Stephen Hanley" <sghanley(at)strobe.com> >To: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Cc: "Kimberly Fritsch" , > "Eugene Abel" , > "Sandy Havens" > >Dear Bob: > >Thanks for the email. The shields are normally used in environments >where radio frequency interference is a problem. If you choose to use >the shields, ground them at the power supply only - to chassis ground. >Leave the opposite ends disconnected - most customers trim them off. > >Thank you. > >Sincerely, > >Steve for Team Nova >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net] >Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 4:02 PM >To: Nova >Subject: Strobe System Installation Diagrams > > >Good day! > >A am looking at installation instructions for your >which I downloaded from: > >http://www.strobe.com/pdfs/eps40X-install.pdf > >I can find no recommendations for how the shield grounds >are to be treated in the strobe-head-to-power-supply cables. Can you >enlighten me? > >Thanks! > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Hi Ernest, Aha... Okay, now I see what you are getting at. I don't think there is an effective means for 'throttling' an alternator to a certain current output. The alternator is controlled by a VOLTAGE regulator. This means that in response to a varying load, the regulator is going to try to adjust the ammount of current coming out of the alternator to keep the VOLTAGE within the specified range (usually about 14V). The bigger the load on the bus, the larger the initial sag, and the larger response from the regulator. This will continue until the alternator is max'ed out (around 70A). In your airplane, the only time I can see you exceeding your power budget is when you are charging a dead battery. So, here's what I would do... Ditch the 40A shunt and meter. Get a 75A shunt from somewhere (BandC has them for $25), and a meter that reads in percent (-100-0-100). The meter will indicate full scale when it recieves 50mV from whatever shunt you install (75A) in this case. This way, you have the advantage of being able to use the full rated output of the boat anchor that you are paying to haul around. That will be nice when you install heated seats, and a mondo landing light. Plus, the bigger shunt weighs no more, and is the same price as the 40A. If you run the battery flat, the 70A alternator will charge it much faster than if you were to successfully regulate the 70A down to 40A. The cheap way might be to keep the meter that you have, and just replace the shunt... Then, if the meter says 40A, the circuit is really moving 75A... Kind of lame though. If the meter says 20A, then you have 37.5A. The really cheap way is don't do anything, but just run it, it may eventually break the mechanism in the meter from knocking the needle against the stop... I bet you would get away with it for a while though. How often will the alternator need to put out more than 40A?? Only if something bad happens. A shunt isn't designed as a current limiter or regulator in any way. Its only purpose is to provide a means for MEASURING current through a section of a circuit. It is instrumentation, only. Ideal instruments shouldn't effect the behavior of the system being measured. The ideal shunt/ammeter would cause 0 voltage drop in the circuit, but 50mV is acceptable, Current limiters are designed to only work when there is some kind of malfunction on the bus. I don't believe they would be good to use as another form of regulation. How's that? Regards, Matt- N34RD > > > Bob, Matt and others: > > Let me state my question with a little more info - I basically don't > even know the question but I think I need to understand this now. I am > using your Z-2 diagram with the always hot bus. > > I have a large Prestolite alternator (installed) that I would like to > limit for a VFR-only RV-9A. It is an ALX series at 70 amps. I want to > keep the alternator. It is a tight fit - but it does fit. Note: almost > all work - engine with all appliances and prop hardware, cowling, > wiring, heat shields, etc., are finished. Change at this stage is not > easy. I have installed the Vans 40 amp shunt, wire, busses, etc., based > upon an overall 40 amp design. > snip > It seems like I should have a mechanism to limit the amperage output > from 70 to no more that 40 amps. The only "mechanism" I have in the > electron stream is a 40 amp shunt (a piece of Bakelite with a flat bar). > Do I just need a simple 35 or 40 fuse/circuit breaker on the main bus > (#8 wire from battery contactor) ??? > > Thanks for any help in knocking down this mental block. > > Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop > 90 plus % Complete - electrical > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "George" <gtb(at)georgesmail.com>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Configuration Spreadsheet
Date: Oct 28, 2003
Pete Waters; You might try to get a copy of the older (free) version of the (now Microsoft owned) VISIO program. This usually came with a great many symbols that could be used to illustrate nearly any kind/type of diagram or chart that a person could imagine. Of course, text and descriptions of each item, as well as layers, or levels within the project are easily done too. About the easiest, and best, "inexpensive" prog that I've ever seen, for its' capabilities. George P.S.: Of course since MS realized the value of this program, they have purchased the rights to it, and added the appropriate value for it to the consumer's required input for usage. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Run away alternator scenario
> >...................SKIP...............We've got an external voltage regulator >powered via a 5 amp field supply breaker. However, virtually all light >aircraft then power the field breaker from the battery side of the 'B' lead >fuse/breaker (typically 40 to 60 amps rating). >If this main breaker/fuse opens, the VR senses low voltage and maximizes >alternator field current in the impossible attempt to restore 13.8 to 14.5 >volts on >the disconnected buss. The result is 100+ volts at the alternator B terminal >and sometimes severe alternator damage involving the faults mentioned. In my >opinion, the field supply breaker should be powered from the alternator side >of the main breaker. Regards, Mike>> This has circulated around the lists for years. The scenario is true IF you open the b-lead breaker without also shutting off the field . . . and this can be REALLY important for the majority of certified airplanes where the b-lead breaker is designed to nuisance trip (see chapter 17 of the 'Connection). Modern OBAM aircraft designs provide sufficient headroom in b-lead protection to prevent the dreaded condition cited. So, the only time we expect b-lead protection to open is when shorted diodes or some other serious malady has befallen the alternator in which case, the thing needs to be worked on anyhow. The design goal is to protect the AIRPLANE from the alternator, not protect the alternator from itself. By eliminating the probability of nuisance tripping the b-lead protection, concerns cited in this anecdote are alleviated. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2003
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Reply from Nova RE: Installation Diagrams
Thanks a bunch Bob. Good to get confirmation. Can I have you look at one more thing? http://www.aeroflash.com/156-0049.pdf Why do I have to run a ground wire to the black wire when the nav and strobe lamps are internally grounded to the case? Can I just ground the black wire to the case or should I run a ground wire all the way from the grounding block on the firewall? Or perhaps run a ground wire from the strobe supply (that is also connected to the supply mount and the drain wire)? In the Aeroflash FAQ ( http://www.aeroflash.com/faq.html ) it says to use shielded wire to run to the power supply. Is this necessary and/or beneficial? BTW I *finally* finished all my Microair radio wiring tonight including using the two relays exactly per your diagram. Works like a charm and I'm very pleased! Thanks for the help! Joa ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ heir recommendations for shield ground treatment. Steve didn't mention why it wasn't covered in the installation manual but his recommendations were consistent with my own . . . --------------------------------- Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au>
Subject: Fuse Holders
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Bob, I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on connectors and blade fuses etc. Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much appreciated. Regards Kingsley Hurst Europa Builder in Oz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Holders
I just did a Google search on Delphi Pack-Con III terminals, but came up with no useful info. Does anyone have a link to a product guide for these products. Are these similar to GM Weather Pac terminals used on GM auto electronics for the past 10 -15 years? Charlie Kuss > >Bob, > >I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly >wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent >publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. > >I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on >connectors and blade fuses etc. > >Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the >panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply >to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to >carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. > >To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse >Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's >properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access >etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf > >My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or >alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them >given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? > >Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much >appreciated. > >Regards >Kingsley Hurst >Europa Builder in Oz > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Holders
<6.0.0.22.0.20031029070626.025c8098(at)mail.bellsouth.net> Listers, With a little more diligence, I've managed to find the following link. No a lot of info on it though. http://www.delphisecure2.com/site/home/HomeMain.asp Choose AUTO FUSE SERIES from the Search Products by Family Name listing on the left hand side of the page. Part numbers 10719123 & 10719136 may be what is needed??? I've sent an inquiry to Packard Delphi for more info. Charlie Kuss >I just did a Google search on Delphi Pack-Con III terminals, but came up with no useful info. Does anyone have a link to a product guide for these products. Are these similar to GM Weather Pac terminals used on GM auto electronics for the past 10 -15 years? >Charlie Kuss > >> >>Bob, >> >>I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly >>wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent >>publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. >> >>I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on >>connectors and blade fuses etc. >> >>Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the >>panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply >>to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to >>carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. >> >>To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse >>Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's >>properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access >>etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf >> >>My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or >>alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them >>given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? >> >>Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much >>appreciated. >> >>Regards >>Kingsley Hurst >>Europa Builder in Oz >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: plaurence@the-beach.net
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Subject: Re: AMP / Cannon Connectors
David I brought 38 wires through the firewall of a Velocity using a Cannon type connector made by Deutch and distributed by Ladd industries. http://www.laddinc.com/ Works well Peter >> > Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best > electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to > 'break' a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than > two pieces. > > However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming > enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my > life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back > under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to > F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have > workable electronics. > > What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking > wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. > > Regards, > > David > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Fuse Holders
Date: Oct 29, 2003
I've seen the Bussmann info on those fuse holders too and thought they looked nice. Recently, I saw them in a Watek, Inc. catalogue and they were priced at $32.04 (Qty 1-9), $27.24 (10-49), $24.03 (50-99). They sell the terminals too. I'd like one for a 4WD vehicle I'm working on. If there is enough interest, I'd be willing to order a group of them along with the terminals and make them available to others. The one they listed in the catalogue is a 20 position dual bus unit. One input stud feeds 14 of the positions and the other input stud feeds the other 6 positions. www.waytekwire.com Dave Swartzendruber Wichita > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:33 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders > > > > To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse > Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's > properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access > etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf > > My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or > alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them > given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Holders
> > >Bob, > >I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly >wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent >publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. Thank you for the kind words. >I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on >connectors and blade fuses etc. > >Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the >panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply >to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to >carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. > >To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse >Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's >properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access >etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf > >My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or >alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them >given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? The parts business I used to manage from my facilities sorta exploded a couple of years ago and became a third full-time job. I sold it to B&C in Newton. >Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much >appreciated. I've forwarded a copy of your note and my reply to Todd at B&C with my recommendation that he look into this variation on the fuseblock concept as a good candidate for enhancing his level of service to the OBAM aircraft community. I was not aware of this new offering. Past versions of rear-wired fuseblocks were not very useful in the one-wire-at-a-time fabrication mode we use on our airplanes. Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Reply from Nova RE: Installation Diagrams
> > >Thanks a bunch Bob. Good to get confirmation. > >Can I have you look at one more thing? > >http://www.aeroflash.com/156-0049.pdf > >Why do I have to run a ground wire to the black wire when the nav and >strobe lamps are internally grounded to the case? Can I just ground the >black wire to the case or should I run a ground wire all the way from the >grounding block on the firewall? Or perhaps run a ground wire from the >strobe supply (that is also connected to the supply mount and the drain wire)? If you have a metal airplane, remotely mounted items like light fixtures, pitot tube heaters, strobe power supplies, etc can be grounded locally to the airframe. >In the Aeroflash FAQ ( http://www.aeroflash.com/faq.html ) it says to use >shielded wire to run to the power supply. Is this necessary and/or beneficial? It isn't always beneficial . . . for example, it's possible, nay even probable that if you simply ran a twisted trio of wires from your power supply to strobe heads, you will experience no adverse conditions. Having said that, given that most strobe systems purchased as a kit come with a shielded trio, why not use it? Similarly, it's no big deal to purchase the shielded trio if it didn't come with the kit. This is an important point to remember about noise mitigation. There are some things we can do that always reduce noise problems, others that help most of the time, still others that help some of the time, and probably more that almost never make a difference. The trick is to put all of the techniques we know about into two piles (1) hard/expensive and (2) easy/cheap. Doing all the easy/cheap things is simply good insurance against having to rework or troubleshoot a problem later. A shielded trio between the strobe heads and power supply fall in the easy/cheap category. What is it your grandfather said to you as a kid? "If you haven't got time to do it right the first time, where will you find the time to do it over?" Well, my grandfather never said that to me that I can recall . . . but I betcha he would have if he came out to my garage, and saw me thrashing around in a big pile of parts that was to become an airplane in a year or two. >BTW I *finally* finished all my Microair radio wiring tonight including >using the two relays exactly per your diagram. Works like a charm and I'm >very pleased! Thanks for the help! Great! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: AMP / Cannon Connectors
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Peter, do you have a part number? Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of plaurence@the-beach.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AMP / Cannon Connectors David I brought 38 wires through the firewall of a Velocity using a Cannon type connector made by Deutch and distributed by Ladd industries. http://www.laddinc.com/ Works well Peter >> > Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best > electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to > 'break' a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than > two pieces. > > However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming > enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my > life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back > under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to > F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have > workable electronics. > > What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking > wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. > > Regards, > > David > > == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
> >Hi Ernest, > >Aha... Okay, now I see what you are getting at. I don't think >there is an effective means for 'throttling' an alternator to a >certain current output. The alternator is controlled by a VOLTAGE >regulator. This means that in response to a varying load, the >regulator is going to try to adjust the ammount of current coming >out of the alternator to keep the VOLTAGE within the specified >range (usually about 14V). The bigger the load on the bus, the >larger the initial sag, and the larger response from the regulator. >This will continue until the alternator is max'ed out (around 70A). >In your airplane, the only time I can see you exceeding your power >budget is when you are charging a dead battery. > >So, here's what I would do... Ditch the 40A shunt and meter. Get a >75A shunt from somewhere (BandC has them for $25), and a meter that >reads in percent (-100-0-100). Is the Van's instrument a battery ammeter (-zero+)? If so, and assuming you want it to read like a battery ammeter, your system will have to be wired like a C-172 and bring the alternator b-lead into the bus instead of tying to the starter contactor on the firewall. You can use these archaic instruments as an alternator loadmeter by installing the shunt in the b-lead as shown in the z-drawings . . . it just never gives a reading in the minus territory . . . > The meter will indicate full scale when >it recieves 50mV from whatever shunt you install (75A) in this case. >This way, you have the advantage of being able to use the full rated >output of the boat anchor that you are paying to haul around. That >will be nice when you install heated seats, and a mondo landing light. >Plus, the bigger shunt weighs no more, and is the same price as the >40A. If you run the battery flat, the 70A alternator will charge it >much faster than if you were to successfully regulate the 70A down to >40A. I was going to suggest that but thought I'd let him down easy. Now that you went and done it anyhow, I'll have to agree that if it were my airplane, I'd install an instrument/shunt combination that was sized to the task. >The cheap way might be to keep the meter that you have, and just replace >the shunt... Then, if the meter says 40A, the circuit is really moving >75A... Kind of lame though. If the meter says 20A, then you have 37.5A. > >The really cheap way is don't do anything, but just run it, it may >eventually break the mechanism in the meter from knocking the needle >against the stop... I bet you would get away with it for a while though. >How often will the alternator need to put out more than 40A?? Only if >something bad happens. Actually, it will probably do it every time the engine is started and the alternator comes on line to recharge the battery. Pointer instruments aren't all that fragile. I've see situations where an instrument took a 5x momentary hit routinely with no ill effects. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net>
Subject: Microair CS experiment update
Bob- I received the replacement processor from Ian at Microair one week from his offering to send it- pretty good from Oz to TN it would seem! I was able to borrow the proper removal tool and replacement was simple (talk about clever packaging!!). Unfortunately, it was not the problem and the radio behaves the same as before. I have e-mailed Microair requesting further guidance and will let y'all know what happens... Mark >Yessir- here's the reply from Oz: > >"G,day mark, >Sorry you are having radio problems,I have just returned from 2 weeks >leave,hence the delay in reply.It seems from your description you may have a >microprocessor problem.Do you think you could replace it if i sent one to >you.It is a plug in device. >Regards Ian.G." (Ian Games) > Interesting! Owner maintained radios. What will they think of next. I am encouraged that Microair has taken this tiny leap into crafting a cooperative and more useful relationship with their customers. Let us know how the great Microair experiment plays out . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Roy, thanks. Got it. Strange that I couldn't find it by searching on their site. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: <royt.or(at)netzero.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions > > > Jim, > > The Radio Shack PN that I think is equivalent to the Boostaroo is 33-1109. Radio Shack web page lists it for $21.99. > > My GMA340 installation had sufficient volume with my CD player to hear the tunes when the engine was not running, but not sufficient volume when the engine was running. The Radio Shack volume booster gives sufficient volume with the setup. > > Regards, > > Roy > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Inductive current measuring device ....
Eric, These devices look like what I was talking about except that they require me to design and build a circuit to display the current flow. Sadly, I am not able to do that. What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. That's about the extent of my circuitry skills. Jim S. "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > > >there were inductive current measuring devices that clamped over, say, an > alternator B+ > >lead and measured output pretty accurately. > >Jim Sower > > Jim, It used a hall effect sensor (for AC you can use a clamp-on > transformer...) There aren't many ways to do this job, but this looks like a > good one. See these guys. > > http://www.allegromicro.com/hall/currentsensor.asp > > Eric > > _ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Inductive current measuring device ....
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Jim, Try http://www.ampsense.com/ Trampas -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inductive current measuring device .... Eric, These devices look like what I was talking about except that they require me to design and build a circuit to display the current flow. Sadly, I am not able to do that. What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. That's about the extent of my circuitry skills. Jim S. "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > > >there were inductive current measuring devices that clamped over, say, an > alternator B+ > >lead and measured output pretty accurately. > >Jim Sower > > Jim, It used a hall effect sensor (for AC you can use a clamp-on > transformer...) There aren't many ways to do this job, but this looks like a > good one. See these guys. > > http://www.allegromicro.com/hall/currentsensor.asp > > Eric > > _ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Ground Loop
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Hi Mike and all, Mike, many, many, many ... thanks for your answer. I had just heard about the "Ground loops", now, I know all !!! I think (I hope!) I have understood the philosophy of "single not ground"and I will try to respect it ! I think too that the layout I plan and dscribe in my first message, is near the "radial grounds" concept you describe. I am lucky! Please, allow me two questions: (1) I will use a MED 80 for the monitoring of my ROTAX 912 ( http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ). It collect informations from probes on the engine (witch certainly have engine-ground) and have its own electrical feed. If I have well understand, I have to wire the MED 80 ground up to engine ground and keep its frame isolated with the instrument panel. Am I right ? (2) I will use the diagram recommended by Bob for the ignition blocks and the starter commands with 2 swithes S700 2-5. The two "put to ground "wires, killers of ignition will be shielded. Should they be connected only to the "engine ground" or also to the ` instrument panel ground " (as ROTAX said) and might have a "ground loop" ? Regards, Michel RIAZUELO MCR SPORTSTER in progress .... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: Larry <larry(at)grrok.com>
Subject: Battery Contactor
How can I verify that the battery contactors have closed in a dual battery system, Figure Z-30. It is easy to verify that the contactor coils are energized but system voltage will be established as soon as the one of the two battery contactors close. This condition can be detected during preflight by switching: Main Battery, Both, Aux Battery but I think there has to be a more elegant method. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Butcher" <europa(at)triton.net>
Subject: Dual Alts
Date: Oct 29, 2003
Bob, I'm building a europa with Rotax 914. The plan is to use Z-13 with a SD20 for one alternator and the Rotax alt for the other. Will two alternators work together to charge the battery? Neither one has the capacity to keep up, but the two together do. Thanks Jim Butcher Europa A185 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Inductive current measuring device ....
Now THAT could be a solution. It takes a lot of panel space, but that might be negotiable. I checked the specs for the AMP25 and AMP200 and figured they would need some supporting circuitry. I was hoping I could maybe connect it to the meter I have after removing the shunt and get the accuracy I need (vaguely accurate, charge and discharge magnitudes). Guess not. The CS50P would "plug and play" and I could open up the panel hole to accept it. Thanks a million for the heads up ... Jim S. Trampas wrote: > > Jim, > > Try http://www.ampsense.com/ > > Trampas > > ... snip ...What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. ... > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Battery Contactor
> >How can I verify that the battery contactors have closed in a dual battery >system, Figure Z-30. It is easy to verify that the contactor coils are >energized but system voltage will be established as soon as the one of the >two battery contactors close. This condition can be detected during >preflight by switching: Main Battery, Both, Aux Battery but I think there >has to be a more elegant method. The best way is to have a switched voltmeter that can read each battery bus. If you had one battery and an e-bus, putting the voltmeter on the e-bus is sufficient. With two batteries, using the voltmeter to read battery busses is a good way to see that the contactors are closed. One could put lv warning sensors on the battery busses too . . . but these would need some switching so that they're drawing current only when the alternator is working. If the alternator is off line, then you're either parked or in a battery only ops mode where you'd NOT want to have the lights flashing at you. Perhaps reversed sense lvwarn circuit with no flasher would be cool. Have the light come on ABOVE 13.0 volts and make them green lamps that might be labeled MAIN BAT, AUX BAT. There are a number of options you could consider. Most builders aren't worrying about it. It's easy to pre-flight by turning on one battery at a time. After you're airborne, there is a slight chance of contactor failure but it doesn't represent a hazard to flight and is easily spotted at next pre-flight. If it were my airplane, I think I'd consider the pre-flight testing to be sufficient. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 30, 2003
From: Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net>
Subject: Re: Microair CS experiment update
Microair has asked me to send the radio back to the factory for repair- can anyone who's gone through this recommend the best way to ship? Their return information mentions airmail and UPS or FedEx. Thanks - Mark in TN Mark Phillips wrote: > > Bob- > I received the replacement processor from Ian at Microair one week from > his offering to send it- pretty good from Oz to TN it would seem! I was > able to borrow the proper removal tool and replacement was simple (talk > about clever packaging!!). Unfortunately, it was not the problem and > the radio behaves the same as before. I have e-mailed Microair > requesting further guidance and will let y'all know what happens... > > Mark > > >Yessir- here's the reply from Oz: > > > >"G,day mark, > >Sorry you are having radio problems,I have just returned from 2 weeks > >leave,hence the delay in reply.It seems from your description you may > have a > >microprocessor problem.Do you think you could replace it if i sent one > to > >you.It is a plug in device. > >Regards Ian.G." (Ian Games) > > > Interesting! Owner maintained radios. What will they think of > next. > > I am encouraged that Microair has taken this tiny leap > into crafting a cooperative and more useful relationship > with their customers. > > Let us > know how the great Microair experiment plays out . . . > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vince Ackerman <vack(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Run away alternator scenario
Date: Oct 30, 2003
Trying to get my meager brain around a few things.... if the battery contactor failed and disconnected the battery while the alternator was running, what would be the consequences/ indications? If there was a normal load (radios, strobes, etc) it would still provide power to the busses or would it behave differently? Vince Ackerman On Oct 28, 2003, at 19:50, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >> ...................SKIP...............We've got an external voltage >> regulator >> powered via a 5 amp field supply breaker. However, virtually all light >> aircraft then power the field breaker from the battery side of the >> 'B' lead >> fuse/breaker (typically 40 to 60 amps rating). >> If this main breaker/fuse opens, the VR senses low voltage and >> maximizes >> alternator field current in the impossible attempt to restore 13.8 to >> 14.5 >> volts on >> the disconnected buss. The result is 100+ volts at the alternator B >> terminal >> and sometimes severe alternator damage involving the faults >> mentioned. In my >> opinion, the field supply breaker should be powered from the >> alternator side >> of the main breaker. Regards, Mike>> > > This has circulated around the lists for years. The scenario > is true IF you open the b-lead breaker without also shutting > off the field . . . and this can be REALLY important for the > majority of certified airplanes where the b-lead breaker is > designed to nuisance trip (see chapter 17 of the 'Connection). > > Modern OBAM aircraft designs provide sufficient headroom in b-lead > protection to prevent the dreaded condition cited. So, the only > time we expect b-lead protection to open is when shorted diodes > or some other serious malady has befallen the alternator in which > case, the thing needs to be worked on anyhow. The design goal is > to protect the AIRPLANE from the alternator, not protect the > alternator from itself. By eliminating the probability of nuisance > tripping the b-lead protection, concerns cited in this anecdote > are alleviated. > > Bob . . . > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Run away alternator scenario
> >Trying to get my meager brain around a few things.... if the battery >contactor failed and disconnected the battery while the alternator was >running, what would be the consequences/ indications? If there was a >normal load (radios, strobes, etc) it would still provide power to the >busses or would it behave differently? Assuming that you have active notification of low voltage like I would have in my airplane, you'll have a light flashing at you within seconds of the failure. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Microair CS experiment update
> >Microair has asked me to send the radio back to the factory for repair- can >anyone who's gone through this recommend the best way to ship? Their return >information mentions airmail and UPS or FedEx. I recommend airmail parcel post where you can get a 2# package there in 6-10 days. You can also buy insurance a parcel post package. Total cost of shipping and insurance about $26.00 ( See http://ircalc.usps.gov ) You'll need to fill out customs form PS Form 2976-A cause the radio is over $400 in value. They will return the radio to you at their expense and probably by air mail as well. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Microair CS experiment update
Date: Oct 30, 2003
From: "David Chalmers" <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com>
I just returned my Microair 760 for repair. Sent it airmail and it got there very quickly. I got the radio back 10 days after I sent it. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Phillips [mailto:ripsteel(at)edge.net] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Microair CS experiment update Microair has asked me to send the radio back to the factory for repair- can anyone who's gone through this recommend the best way to ship? Their return information mentions airmail and UPS or FedEx. Thanks - Mark in TN Mark Phillips wrote: > > Bob- > I received the replacement processor from Ian at Microair one week from > his offering to send it- pretty good from Oz to TN it would seem! I was > able to borrow the proper removal tool and replacement was simple (talk > about clever packaging!!). Unfortunately, it was not the problem and > the radio behaves the same as before. I have e-mailed Microair > requesting further guidance and will let y'all know what happens... > > Mark > > >Yessir- here's the reply from Oz: > > > >"G,day mark, > >Sorry you are having radio problems,I have just returned from 2 weeks > >leave,hence the delay in reply.It seems from your description you may > have a > >microprocessor problem.Do you think you could replace it if i sent one > to > >you.It is a plug in device. > >Regards Ian.G." (Ian Games) > > > Interesting! Owner maintained radios. What will they think of > next. > > I am encouraged that Microair has taken this tiny leap > into crafting a cooperative and more useful relationship > with their customers. > > Let us > know how the great Microair experiment plays out . . . > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: BS-1 bond studs disappearing fast
We had about 800+ of the BS-1 bond studs a couple of months ago . . . we're down to less than 100. I'm in no big hurry to get rid of them but I thought I would let list-readers get first dibs on what's left. I have no source for more. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 30, 2003
From: Richard(at)riley.net
Subject: Re: Microair CS experiment update
I sent mine USPS Airmail, it came back the same way. Total turnaround was 8 days. I was VERY impressed. > >Microair has asked me to send the radio back to the factory for repair- can >anyone who's gone through this recommend the best way to ship? Their return >information mentions airmail and UPS or FedEx. > >Thanks - Mark in TN > >Mark Phillips wrote: > > > > > Bob- > > I received the replacement processor from Ian at Microair one week from > > his offering to send it- pretty good from Oz to TN it would seem! I was > > able to borrow the proper removal tool and replacement was simple (talk > > about clever packaging!!). Unfortunately, it was not the problem and > > the radio behaves the same as before. I have e-mailed Microair > > requesting further guidance and will let y'all know what happens... > > > > Mark > > > > >Yessir- here's the reply from Oz: > > > > > >"G,day mark, > > >Sorry you are having radio problems,I have just returned from 2 weeks > > >leave,hence the delay in reply.It seems from your description you may > > have a > > >microprocessor problem.Do you think you could replace it if i sent one > > to > > >you.It is a plug in device. > > >Regards Ian.G." (Ian Games) > > > > > Interesting! Owner maintained radios. What will they think of > > next. > > > > I am encouraged that Microair has taken this tiny leap > > into crafting a cooperative and more useful relationship > > with their customers. > > > > Let us > > know how the great Microair experiment plays out . . . > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Alts
> >Bob, > >I'm building a europa with Rotax 914. The plan is to use Z-13 with a SD20 >for one alternator and the Rotax alt for the other. Will two alternators >work together to charge the battery? Neither one has the capacity to keep >up, but the two together do. > >Thanks I presume that since you know that two outputs added together will carry your loads, you have done a rudimentary load analysis. Is your SD-20 going to run from the vacuum pump pad on the 914? If I recall correctly, this pad is pretty slow compared to a Lyc or Continental. You won't get 20A out of it unless you're going to direct drive from the crankshaft at the back. I've seen some installations that do this. In this case, you'll get 40A from the SD-20 and the Rotax's built in alternator can be your standby power source. Can you share more of your design intentions and along with details of your load analysis? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ground loop ...
> > >Hi all, > >I have heard about "ground loop". Who can tell me more or indicate where >are the things I have to read ? > >I am thinking about the wiring of my MCR SPORTSTER. > >I will have a ground block under the seats and a mini battery bus (fuse >holder) for the trim and flaps (and can be later for the heating seats!!). >I would have also a ground block on the firewall (engine side) and finally >the principal bus, the essential bus and the main ground block behind of >instrument panel. > >For information, MCR SPORTSTER is a composite carbon epoxy aircraft and >the tank is located between the firewall and the instrument panel. > > >Do I risk problems with this ground blocks layout ? I didn't get to this for a couple of days . . . you've had several replies, all of which contain some facts and a few of which have poorly explained or erroneous information. Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? There's a chapter on grounding and another on system noise issues that would be good starting points for understanding how it all works. The short answer is a single point ground block on the firewall. An example of a product can be seen at: http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 Many builders have fabricated their own ground blocks. If you choose to do so, consider brass studs made from brass screws where the heads are soldered to the back side of the buss-plate. Then use locknuts to insure mechanical integrity of the joints. Minimum recommended diameter of stud would be 8-32 thread (US) or 4mm in any other thread standard. Since your airplane is composite, a min 5/16 brass stud (8.5mm) should tie grounds aft and forward of firewall together. Crankcase ground strap and battery (-) wires go right to this bolt. All other accessories get their own, independent ground wires to studs on either front or backside of the firewall. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Fuse Holders
Date: Oct 30, 2003
Charlie, If you look at the Bussman info, the fuseholders are made in sections; the two end sections and center sections. These snap or interlock together somehow to make whatever size of fuseholder is needed. I would think that the individual sections would be available to buy and stock so that a builder could specify and purchase whatever configuration they wanted. If B&C doesn't want to do this, I'll research it and find a way of doing it. The output terminals are the one disadvantage of this fuseholder. They are crimped onto the wire that feeds the electrical load and then inserted into the fuseblock. The blade of the fuse inserts directly into this terminal. I say it's a disadvantage because it will require a crimping tool that most builders won't have. If I do this, I'll make terminals available bare, or already crimped onto a length of MIL-W-22759/16 wire. The other disadvantage of the output terminal is that it appears that 16AWG is the smallest size wire that is accommodated. If this is true, we could probably get around it by stripping the smaller wire twice as far and doubling it over. Well, I just looked at my inbox before sending this message and saw Bob's report that B&C is not going to add this to their catalogue. I'll begin to look into it myself. Dave Swartzendruber Wichita > > Dave, > I noted that they say they can supply other sizes as a special order. I > want 2 of these, BUT without a split bus. I would like a 12 fuse unit and > a 16 fuse unit (both with single bus). I don't see a listing for output > terminals of 18-22 AWG listed. Are they available? Let me know if this is > possible? Could you get a photo of the connector for these blocks? > Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Loadmeter Troubleshooting
Date: Oct 30, 2003
Bob, I installed one of your Voltmeter/Loadmeters in my RV6A. I started the engine for the first time this week and the voltmeer works fine. The Loadmeter, however, does not move no matter how many electrical goodies I turn on. Can you give me some direction in trobleshooting? Ross Mickey N9PT Inspection on Nov 6th ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AMP / Cannon Connectors
> > >Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best >electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to 'break' >a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than two >pieces. > >However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming >enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my >life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back >under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to >F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have workable >electronics. > >What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking >wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. Plusses are convenience of installation and maintenance. Minuses are cost of installation and ownership with reduced reliability. Use connectors where they're really going to help out over the next ten years of owning and maintaining your airplane. Just 'cause AT Category airplanes are full of connectors doesn't make a direct translation to being a good idea for your project. Consider the trade-offs, make a decision and drive ahead. Whatever you decide to do will probably have no serious consequences one way or the other. My connector of first choice is the D-sub with machined pins. This selection is based on commonality with many products that use d-subs and availability of low cost tools and pins. If you need other form factors, consider the Amp plastic circular connectors http://dkc3.digikey.com/pdf/T033/0220-0221.pdf in Series II uses same pins as d-sub, Series I uses heavier pins that can be installed with the low-cost b-crimp tool from B&C. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AMP / Cannon Connectors
> >Peter, do you have a part number? >Jim I would avoid Deutsch . . . I've had enough problems with their connectors and relays over the years to write them of my list of preferred components for new design. If you need a metal connector MS3470 series devices or more modern Mil-C-38999 connectors. These are getting pretty pricey . . . let's talk about it before you go out to buy something. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fastons
> >Bob (et al), > >I've read your various epistles on Fastons and I fully agree. My experience >is that the Faston to quick-fit connections are superior in many ways to >most other fastening methods. > >I do a lot of design with Fastons and Mosfets that invariably leads to the >issue of how much current a female Faston and the mating pcb "quick-fit" >terminal is rated for. Info is hard to come by. > >My presumption is -- if Fastons are sold in AWG 10 sizes-- then it is only >reasonable that the proper quick-fit terminal should be assumed to carry the >rated AWG 10 ampacity. (Which depends more on the wire insulation melting >point than anything else.) Actually, 10AWG is good up to 30A . . . I don't think I'd load a fast-on that heavily. The fuse-blocks are rated for up to 30A per slot but there are few places where we need more than 10A continuous with short intervals of 15-18A (pitot heaters). For long service life, I de-rate fast-ons to 10A continuous, 20A short term surge irrespective of wire size. In a nice, clean low stress environment they're probably okay for 30A but given that we don't NEED to load them that heavy, I'll suggest it's a good design philosophy to de-rate as I've cited above. One concern for performance at high currents are the side forces induced by fat wires like 10AWG. All the "magic" in a fast-on joint happens in the very low area, high pressure grooves. Any force that deflects the terminal perpendicular to the face of the fast-on tab can only act to reduce effectiveness of that interface. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 30, 2003
From: MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Ground Loop
> From: Michel RIAZUELO > > I think (I hope!) I have understood the philosophy of "single > not ground"and I will try to respect it ! That's "Single POINT Ground" > I think too that the layout I plan and dscribe in my first > message, is near the "radial grounds" concept you describe. > I am lucky! In the case of an airframe where the alternator/engine is in the front, the battery is in the back, and the cabin is in the middle, I would describe the power grounds as a "backbone", where the backbone is the aircraft, or a conductor capable of carrying the starter cranking current... If the battery and alternator are near the engine, then things get way easier. You will have a Radial ground system where the center is the minus lead of the battery, but the all of the spokes are really short. > Please, allow me two questions: > > (1) I will use a MED 80 for the monitoring of my ROTAX 912 ( > http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ). It collect > informations from probes on the engine (witch certainly have > engine-ground) and have its own electrical feed. If I have > well understand, I have to wire the MED 80 ground up to engine > ground and keep its frame isolated with the instrument panel. > Am I right ? If you can do that, by all means. If not, then all of the avionics can be concentrated in another region of the same panel area where the MED80 is mounted and you can still have a "single point ground" for the avionics as long as nothing related to the audio grounds anywhere else. > (2) I will use the diagram recommended by Bob for the > ignition blocks and the starter commands with 2 swithes S700 > 2-5. The two "put to ground "wires, killers of ignition will > be shielded. Should they be connected only to the "engine > ground" or also to the ` instrument panel ground " (as ROTAX > said) and might have a "ground loop" ? You are very perceptive. The magnetos are defacto grounded by being bolted to the engine. To prevent a mag from sparking, the P-lead must be shorted to the magneto case using a magneto switch. You have at least four options: 1. Unshielded P-lead wires, with common side of OFF-L-R-BOTH switch grounded to panel. This relies on the fact that the panel is connected to the airframe, then to the firewall, then via a ground strap across the engine mount to the engine cradle, then to the engine, and finally through the engine to the mag case. This is a very bad idea, because when the engine is running, the P-leads have very high risetime pulses of hundreds of volts on them, which radiate like an antenna into radios (at radio frequencies), or can capacitively couple into nearby audio wiring. 2. Shielded, insulated-sleeve coaxial wires with the P-lead on the center conductor, and the shield grounded to the mag case at the engine end, and the shield connected only to the common side of the mag switch (no jumper to the panel). 3. Same as above, but add a "safety" jumper from the com side of the mag switch to the panel. 4. Install two feedthru style coaxial rfi low-pass filters in the firewall. Use shielded wire between the mag and the filter. Then you dont have to shield the P-leads on the panel side of the firewall, and then it doesn't matter if you ground the common side of the Mag switch to the panel. The low-pass filters block the high-rise time high amplitude pulses from appearing on the panel side of the firewall. My 1958 Piper Pacer has these. From a radio/audio noise (single point ground) standpoint, 2 is the preferred method. Some will say that 3 (with jumper) is needed for "safety" (redundant shorting path back to the mag). However, if the shield in 2 breaks, the worst that will happen is that you will have a "hot mag" until you fix it. Since the return path from panel to mag is so circuitous, I question the "added safety" argument. If the jumper in 3 is installed, then you have connected the panel to the engine block via the shields of the two P-leads. This maybe a good thing for your engine instruments, but may be a bad thing for your radio/audio systems. I have to do this in my Skylane, because the ground jumper is mandated by an AD. Mike Mladejovsky Skylane '1MM Pacer '00Z ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Inductive current measuring device ....
Date: Oct 30, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
Jim Sower wrote: > > Now THAT could be a solution. It takes a lot of panel space, but that might > be negotiable. I checked the specs for the AMP25 and AMP200 and figured > they would need some supporting circuitry. I was hoping I could maybe > connect it to the meter I have after removing the shunt and get the accuracy > I need (vaguely accurate, charge and discharge magnitudes). Guess not. The > CS50P would "plug and play" and I could open up the panel hole to accept it. > Thanks a million for the heads up ... Jim S. Jim, I hate to be a party pooper, but if you'll tolerate my playing devil's advocate for a moment, consider ALL of the aspects (drawbacks too) before you go forward. This thing weighs half a pound, and costs $70 or so. That's not terrible in an industrial situation, but compared to a $25 shunt that weighs a quarter as much, it's not as great of a deal. This unit's is more accurate than most - about a third of an amp max error at 50A. You still have a resistor here to convert that 50mA to voltage for the meter (the same way the shunt would have done). Finally, you need to equip this thing with a bipolar power supply. Their handbook mentions the PT78NR112, which will certainly do this, but it's again added complexity. You could also use the "Output proportional to sensed current" example schematic on page 7 of their handbook, but it's still additional components, and you lose half the device's accuracy in that case. Ampsense's handbook at: http://www.ampsense.com/HANDBOOK%203.pdf addresses many of these details if you're still interested. These may still fit your bill and I hope I haven't "killed the dream" but the sensors do take some care to use. Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: AMP / Cannon Connectors
Date: Oct 30, 2003
Thanks for the info. I'm actually using the AMP plugs with gold pins you pointed out. Is there any 'electrical' loss, noise etc. inserted when breaking a wire with one of these connectors and quality pins? David -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AMP / Cannon Connectors > > >Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best >electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to 'break' >a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than two >pieces. > >However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming >enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my >life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back >under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to >F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have workable >electronics. > >What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking >wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. Plusses are convenience of installation and maintenance. Minuses are cost of installation and ownership with reduced reliability. Use connectors where they're really going to help out over the next ten years of owning and maintaining your airplane. Just 'cause AT Category airplanes are full of connectors doesn't make a direct translation to being a good idea for your project. Consider the trade-offs, make a decision and drive ahead. Whatever you decide to do will probably have no serious consequences one way or the other. My connector of first choice is the D-sub with machined pins. This selection is based on commonality with many products that use d-subs and availability of low cost tools and pins. If you need other form factors, consider the Amp plastic circular connectors http://dkc3.digikey.com/pdf/T033/0220-0221.pdf in Series II uses same pins as d-sub, Series I uses heavier pins that can be installed with the low-cost b-crimp tool from B&C. Bob . . . == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Byrne" <jcbyrne(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Microair CS experiment update
Date: Oct 31, 2003
Mark If your sending it to Australia, send it Via the post. Its light and wont cost much. I sent a package about the same size (slightly lighter) to the States 18mths ago, it took about 4 days and cost about $6.00 US. Call it radio for repairs on the customs sticker and mark the value way down (its not worth much U/S) and then it wont attract the attention of the customs duty man on the way in. Send it VIA UPS or FedEx and it will cost a fortune for them to handle it and clear it through customs etc. My last package that was mistakenly sent FEDEX cost me $60.00 freight and another $30 to be put through customs then they added the actual duty. (all for about 2lbs in a padded envelope) Chris Byrne Sydney ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AMP / Cannon Connectors
> > >Thanks for the info. I'm actually using the AMP plugs with gold pins >you pointed out. Is there any 'electrical' loss, noise etc. inserted >when breaking a wire with one of these connectors and quality pins? > >David Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a 0-ohms joint (except in the superconducting world) and worse yet, every cut and paste in a circuit path can open "cracks" where the wedges of environmental mischief are driven in. This doesn't mean we can't do very, VERY good joints taking care in selection of materials and techniques for installation. Fortunately, the typical wire-to-wire interface through a good connector is measured in the hand-full of milliohms which are almost never significant in terms of system performance. The risks are totally bounded by effects of time-in service and your ability and willingness to learn how to do it right the first time and every time. I would guess that Beechjet has perhaps thousands of pin-socket interfaces that pass through hundreds of connectors. Many of these airplanes are 20+ years old with connectors that have never been de-mated for any reason. In spite of the fact that it "rains" inside one of these machines every time it descends from altitude, the vast majority of joints have maintained operational integrity for a satisfyingly long time. They're all gold plated with gas-tight crimps. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Inductive current measuring device ....
You're a pretty good devil's advocate. Actually, I have to have plug & play or nothing at all. I've bypassed the ammeter I had to avoid running alternator current the length of the airplane twice. I still have charging voltage, so it's no great loss. Don't trust the meter anyway. It stays on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that much when system is charging a low battery. As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to have a power supply and display device. Way more trouble than it's worth. Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my meager electronic abilities ... Jim S. "Robinson, Chad" wrote: > -Jim, I hate to be a party pooper, but if you'll tolerate my playing devil's advocate for a moment, consider ALL of the aspects (drawbacks too) before you go forward. > > Ampsense's handbook at: > http://www.ampsense.com/HANDBOOK%203.pdf > > addresses many of these details if you're still interested. These may still fit your bill and I hope I haven't "killed the dream" but the sensors do take some care to use. > > Regards, > Chad > -- Jim Sower Crossville, TN; Chapter 5 Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Ground loop ...
Date: Oct 31, 2003
Hi Bob, Thank you for your answer. > Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? There's > a chapter on grounding and another on system noise issues > that would be good starting points for understanding > how it all works. I do not have it yet, but it is in the first order I prepare for B&C ! I know the 24/24-Tab Firewall Ground Kit (and all the other B&C products !) and it is on my order too ! I initially thought of having a ground block on the firewall (engine side) and the principal bus, the essential bus and the main ground block behind of the instrument panel. This for to have not to wire all the returns towards the ground between the Instrument Panel and the Firewall (4 feet). With only "Single POINT Ground", which does one make with the aluminium frame of the Instrument Panel? Is it possible to use a D-SUB connector for ground wire to be able to dismount the Instrument Panel ? Regards, Michel. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: getting the horse back out in front of the cart
. . . > >You're a pretty good devil's advocate. Actually, I have to have plug & >play or nothing at all. I've bypassed the ammeter I had to avoid running >alternator current the length of the airplane twice. ????? That's what a shunt does for you. Let's you measure current in a remote location on tiny wires irrespective of how much current is being measured/monitored. > I still have charging voltage, so it's no great loss. Don't trust the > meter anyway. It stays on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that > much when system is charging a >low battery. What is the basis for your distrust? If you have a loadmeter now that behaves as you describe, it COULD be entirely accurate. A soggy battery recharges at relatively slow rates (especially if your bus voltage is set too low) and the "constant charge reading" may simply be the sum total of equipment loads (relatively constant) + a small charging value for battery. Lack of trust simply means "lack of understanding" . . . if you know the instrument is bogus, why leave it in the airplane? If you haven't checked it for proper operation, then it may very well be trying to tell you something useful about what's going on in your airplane. > As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to have a power supply and > display device. Way more trouble than it's worth. >Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my meager electronic >abilities ... Jim S. I'm not sure that's true. Your earliest postings on this thread was "how do I do this?" . . . for which you received some useful and lucid replies. Now, I sense from your responses that you've not yet explored "what do I need?" "how is it useful to me as a pilot/maintainer of an airplane" and "what is the most efficient way of achieving that performance?" I'm working with a group of folks on a six-sigma team with a mission to improve communications and collective understanding amongst 800 engineers spread in little clumps over a square mile. The initial thrust of many efforts like this is to start gathering answers. I've suggested that questions are more important than answers. If you don't ask all the questions and place them in some logical order of significance, then whatever answers are assembled at random (while perfectly accurate) may not reveal solutions to a problem. Your question was too far down the road so folks who answered could only assume that the earlier studies to lay foundation were already understood. This appears not to be the case. Let's back up a bit and have you explain what you have now, how and why it falls short of your perceptions of what you need and THEN figure out the combination of hardware that fits your requirements for space, weight, cost and relative complexity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New Fuse Block from marine supplier
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer(at)genmar.com>
I work for a large boat manufacturing company and at a trade show in Miami this past week found a very nice fuse block that will be introduced to the market within the next two months http://www.bluesea.com (Don't pay attention to their "Now Shipping" banner on their web page. They aren't available yet. I called them yesterday and said they are in the final production de-bugging) The overall advantage is that they are very well thought out, have 12 positions (a 6-slot unit is in development but nothing larger on the horizon), include ground terminals and translucent cover. Not sure about price. I plan to use two - one for my switched bus and one for my essential bus on the GlaStar I'm building, mounting them above the footwells, behind the IP (similar to an automobile). I'll then have a battery-fed fuse block mounted in the panel with the feeds for my CDI ignition systems. These units are intended for surface mounting - the screw terminals are on the "front" of the unit. Mark Neubauer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Engine cranking problem in Glasair
>Bob, >Thanks for the prompt reply. >The battery is a definite Gell type not the RGM type. At Oshkosh Concorde >batteries told me to buy one of their 25a/h RGM batteries [the XC 25]. I do >not see how going down in a/h will solve the problem. Surely the internal >resistance of my battery is not 9amps worth ? Mine is a 34a/h gell. Internal impedance of a battery and its capacity are only loosely related. I can show you 2 a.h. cells that will crank with more enthusiasm than a 50 a.h. battery of another technology. >I dont know what gauge my wires are, however if I measure them in diameter >[copper strands only ] they are about 1/2 inch across. I have never seen >bigger on a plane. Interesting but not very helpful in doing quantitative analysis of where your battery's energy is getting wasted when you crank the engine. Do you have a scrap of this same wire? Get a micrometer and measure the diameter of one strand of wire and then count the strands. From this we can calculate its electrical characteristics . . . very important data for the analysis. >Will the wound starter really make a big difference? It certainly CAN . . . IF starter characteristics prove to be the long pole in the tent. To determine that, we need real measurements. The results of these measurements will guide us in determining the best course of action. You can download one of the chapters in my book that explains the significance of this line of investigation. Download: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch5-9.pdf In particular, see discussion on cranking path resistance on pages 5-3 and 5-3. Here's another page from the book http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Page_2-6.pdf Until we have data in the form of all the voltage measurements depicted in this figure, discussing solutions is pure speculation. --------------- earlier exchange ---------------------- > > >Comments/Questions: Bob, > > >You come highly recommended as my last hope in troubleshooting my >starting > > >problems of my Glasair III .I have a 300hp lyc, Skytec 12v starter, 16ft > > >of welding cable [for more current capacity]and a 34amp/h gell battery. > > >When the engine is cold it is difficult to get the prop blade to swing > > >thru the first compression stroke. Often the currentdraw causes the > > >solenoid to kick out. > > > > What is the actual size of your welding cable? I presume > > the 16' is total wire length. 2AWG or even 0AWG welding > > cable can go a long way toward maximizing utilization > > of the battery's energy for cranking. > > > > >Some tell me the Skytec product is inferior > > > > I think the B&C starters with their wire wound fields will > > produce better performance with the large engines than > > Skytec which uses permanent magnet fields. > > > > > > >others tell me the battery is too small. > > > > It's a function of internal impedance of the battery. > > There are 10 a.h. batteries that will crank your engine. > > The trick is to get that energy from battery to starter. > > Is your battery a true 'Gel Cell' or is it a recombinant > > gas battery? There's a BIG difference. What brand and > > part number is it? > > > > You need to measure voltage at the battery terminals > > while cranking and at the starter terminals while > > cranking. Use an analog meter, not digital so that > > you can do some visual averaging. I suspect that > > your battery is tired or you have excessive votlage > > drop in the wiring and contactors . . . or both. > > > > > > > > >The solenoids have been checked.The wire carrying the current was >replaced > > >with one as thick as my little finger[+/- 1/2"].Note: once the prop has > > >momentum it swings okay. Help please. > > > > If your battery is an RG battery and fresh and your > > wiring is 0AWG or bigger, then starter replacement > > with a B&C starter is the next thing to try. > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Inductive current measuring device ....
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
Jim Sower wrote: > > You're a pretty good devil's advocate. Actually, I have to > have plug & play or nothing at all. I've bypassed the > ammeter I had to avoid running alternator current the length > of the airplane twice. I still have charging voltage, so > it's no great loss. Don't trust the meter anyway. It stays > on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that much when > system is charging a > low battery. As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to > have a power supply and display device. Way more trouble > than it's worth. > Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my > meager electronic abilities ... Jim S. =) I hate to be a killjoy, though. Let's go back to your original problem. Are you suspecting that you are getting radiated noise from the ammeter's connection all the way back to the shunt? If so, perhaps a shielded wire would be a simpler solution. You could also arrange a choke similar to Bob's guide, which would filter out some of the noise at the expense of reducing the response rate of the meter (not that you'd probably notice - it wouldn't be on the order of seconds...) Normally, this shouldn't be the source. Despite the presence of noise in the signal, there isn't much current flowing (it's 0.05V max applied to the meter, usually) so the radiated noise from an ammeter won't be very large. That is, your antenna is large/long in this case, but the power into it is small. You might also be well served by routing this connection elsewhere, but you might want to investigate other noise sources. Or have you disconnected the wire and the noise goes away? Bob, can you provide any insight as to the frequencies a choke would need to cover to filter out alternator noise? Or is the choke modification you describe in one of your articles already suitable for that? I'm making an assumption again but it sounds like Jim might find that type of solution useful. I'm assuming all of the above because the problem can't be that you just don't want the wires there - you'd need them anyway for a Hall Effect sensor arrangement. Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ground loop ...
> > >Hi Bob, > > >Thank you for your answer. > > > > Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? There's > > a chapter on grounding and another on system noise issues > > that would be good starting points for understanding > > how it all works. > > >I do not have it yet, but it is in the first order I prepare for B&C ! > >I know the 24/24-Tab Firewall Ground Kit (and all the other B&C products >!) and it is on my order too ! Okay, excellent first steps . . . >I initially thought of having a ground block on the firewall (engine side) >and the principal bus, the essential bus and the main ground block behind >of the instrument panel. You've seen how the ground blocks are configured in the kit. While on opposite sides of the firewall, they are electrically a single point ground. I'm not suggesting that multiple ground busses are an automatic recipe for problems but I can assert that you won't have ground loop problems if there are no loops . . . I.e., one place on the firewall where it all comes together. >This for to have not to wire all the returns towards the ground between >the Instrument Panel and the Firewall (4 feet). Your concern/solution for wire reduction with multiple ground buses can offset other advantages assured by having a single ground . . . >With only "Single POINT Ground", which does one make with the aluminium >frame of the Instrument Panel? "ground" has no structural significance, nor should the structure of the instrument panel have any electrical significance. I'm not sure I understand your question. >Is it possible to use a D-SUB connector for ground wire to be able to >dismount the Instrument Panel ? > You betcha . . . but if it were my airplane, I'd consider first having extra slack in a wire bundle that allows the panel to be dismounted and set or tied aside for maintenance convenience. The slack can be coiled up and tie-wrapped for flight. This has the advantage of being able to OPERATE the systems with the panel displaced. But if adding the connector is attractive to you, it can be done with only slight reduction in reliability and the extra hour or so it takes to accommodate the connector's installation. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dome lights
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com>
> I enjoy flying at night, so I'm interested in mounting some 'dome' lights in the front and rear baggage compartments for those times when I need to dig around in there at night. The "FAA approved" lights are in the neighborhood of $100 a copy. The automotive world's stuff is very large, heavy and bulky, or very cheesy quality. I have located a 4 LED solution for around $20, but not sure how much light it would throw. See it at: http://www.cfrlights.com/sdc.html#Step%20Lights > Anyone have any other ideas? > > Arthur Treff > RV-8 Fastback (wiring) > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gkb5577(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 31, 2003
Subject: Re: Fastons Vs. Other
Okay, I've been following the debates on connectors. Because of some arthritis I felt dissatisfied with crimp together terminals--and as far as I know there are no Go-NoGo test strips for these. So: I've soldered as much of everything that I could and instead of fast-ons have used screw-on terminal busses (with loop terminal connectors). But here's a question: because of the talk re. crimp-ons being air/gas tight ( of which I'm cynical, unless someone has data to defend this) could one use small soft-malleable washers between the terminals and the screw and bus terminal bases with the idea in mind to increase air seal and increase connection area for electron transmission? Comments AO? Geoff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Anderson Power Pole connectors
Hello Aeroelectric I fool with electric model RC. Have fooled with a number of different connectors from 15 to 100 amp. My favorite, are the Anderson Power Pole connectors, for their ease of assembly/disassembly and low impedance connections. They can be jigsaw assembled so they can only be connected proper. You can add as many connections as you need. I am building an Europa, and am thinking about using them for wing wiring for position/strobes, and for a most likely removable main wheel fairing/landing light. What thoughts on using anderson powerpoles? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: John R <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: Inductive current measuring device ....
Hi Jim, If you want both charge and discharge indications on a single meter, then you have to put the shunt (or whatever you're using to read the current) it in the battery circuit (preferably at the battery) - not on the alternator circuit. If you put it in the alternator circuit, you only have an alternator loadmeter. I'm thinking of doing both - if I wanted to I suppose I could even switch between them, but I'm probably just going to put one on a meter, and one to the engine monitor. -John R. Jim Sower wrote: > >Now THAT could be a solution. It takes a lot of panel space, but that might be >negotiable. I checked the specs for the AMP25 and AMP200 and figured they would >need some supporting circuitry. I was hoping I could maybe connect it to the >meter I have after removing the shunt and get the accuracy I need (vaguely >accurate, charge and discharge magnitudes). Guess not. The CS50P would "plug >and play" and I could open up the panel hole to accept it. >Thanks a million for the heads up ... Jim S. > >Trampas wrote: > > > >> >>Jim, >> >>Try http://www.ampsense.com/ >> >>Trampas >> >>... snip ...What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. ... >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
> > >Bob and Matt: Thanks for the great help. Since I am so far along (FWF, >panel and most wiring finished) I think that I will replace the alternator >with a properly-sized one, ??? what's "improper" about the size of the present alternator? > . . . then it will make for a better potential >solution. When I realized that the juice flows both ways through the master >relay I knew that my installation would have a problem in a low battery >situation. > >Just didn't know how to formulate the question. I got caught the bad >decision of trying to save a big, new, certified alternator at all costs. >It is great to read well reasoned, logic-based emails like Mat's. I think we've charged out into left field. . . . Keep in mind that during the last years that Cessna was building EVERY single-engine aircraft as 28 volt machine with a 60A alternator. This fitted the C-150 with 1700 watts of capacity in an airframe that would probably never use more than 25% of that amount. Let's back up and consider (1) you have a perfectly good working alternator with plenty of capacity for the way you plan to use the airplane. (2) All alternators should be sized with some head-room . . . capacity over and above anticipated loads so that the excess can recharge the battery. (3) The FAA is fond of suggesting boundaries on this excess . . . as I recall, they reached into a hat and pulled out some statement like "an alternator shall not be loaded to more than 75% of it's output capacity". Okay, the C-140 was certified with a 20A generator. Under these guidelines, we would reserve 5A of this output for battery recharging. If you had a dead 24 a.h. battery, propped the airplane and took off with all your electro-whizzies running, then you would NOT recharge the battery before you hand to land because it's time to stop for fuel. On the other hand, if you STC'd a 60A machine on this same airplane, the FAA would want you to fence off 15A of the alternator's capacity which says that if you add 30 additional amps of electro-whizzies, you'll get your dead battery recharged in about 1.6 hours. Okay, suppose you put your OWN boundary on headroom and install a 70A machine on an airplane that will probably never run more than 30A of loads. Now, you can recharge a totally dead battery in just over 30 minutes. How is this a "bad thing"? You've admitted to some "bad judgement" where I'm having trouble figuring out what's bad about it. As I've suggested to others, lets see what you have in hand, what you want to achieve in the finished product and then figure out the most attractive combination of parts and techniques will get this done. My perception is that you're belabored with some erroneous or at least mis-understood concepts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Subject: Re: Dome lights
I agree that the auto lights from like JC Whitney are cheesy, but I really liked the lights from my VW Jetta, so I ordered them straight from the dealer for $18. You can see what they look like at: http://www.velocityxl.com/Fuselage_Complete.htm#15 - Fresh Air Duct I particularly like these, because I have them wired into the door switches to come on when the doors are opened and "fade out" shortly after they're closed, but they also can be turned on individually without an extra (ugly) switch. Brett Quoting "Treff, Arthur" : > Arthur" > > > I enjoy flying at night, so I'm interested in > mounting some 'dome' lights in the front and rear > baggage compartments for those times when I need to > dig around in there at night. The "FAA approved" > lights are in the neighborhood of $100 a copy. The > automotive world's stuff is very large, heavy and > bulky, or very cheesy quality. I have located a 4 LED > solution for around $20, but not sure how much light > it would throw. See it at: > http://www.cfrlights.com/sdc.html#Step%20Lights > > Anyone have any other ideas? > > > > Arthur Treff > > RV-8 Fastback (wiring) > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > -- Visit us at www.velocityxl.com 44VF Velocity XL/FG I68 Cincinnati, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Anderson Power Pole connectors
> > >Hello Aeroelectric > >I fool with electric model RC. Have fooled with a number of different >connectors from >15 to 100 amp. > >My favorite, are the Anderson Power Pole connectors, for their ease of >assembly/disassembly and low impedance connections. They can be jigsaw >assembled so >they can only be connected proper. You can add as many connections as you >need. > >I am building an Europa, and am thinking about using them for wing wiring for >position/strobes, and for a most likely removable main wheel >fairing/landing light. > >What thoughts on using anderson powerpoles? I believe this is the series of connectors B&C supplies with the SD-8 installation kit. The full range of products is viewable at: http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/pp.html# These have a pretty good record on B&C's products. If you really gotta have a connector somewhere, these should be considered. Of course, they are specific to high current applications and I've only seen wire-bundle to wire-bundle mating sets. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fastons Vs. Other
> > Okay, I've been following the debates on connectors. Because of some >arthritis I felt dissatisfied with crimp together terminals--and as far as >I know >there are no Go-NoGo test strips for these. So: I've soldered as much of >everything that I could and instead of fast-ons have used screw-on >terminal busses >(with loop terminal connectors). But here's a question: because of the talk >re. crimp-ons being air/gas tight ( of which I'm cynical, unless someone has >data to defend this) Do you have data that contradicts this? >. . . could one use small soft-malleable washers between the >terminals and the screw and bus terminal bases with the idea in mind to >increase >air seal and increase connection area for electron transmission? Explain the mechanism by which introducing two interfacing surfaces into a joint formerly comprised of only one interface surface can have any beneficial effect in (1) reducing resistance of the joint and/or (2) "improving the seal". I take it that you have some information that shows that what must be billions of solderless connections used in all manner of vehicle over the past 70 years are at-risk? > Comments? Oh you betcha. Please review http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html Please quote and then elaborate on any part of the above that gives you pause . . . Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: John R <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
Subject: Re: Fastons Vs. Other
Gkb5577(at)aol.com wrote: > > Okay, I've been following the debates on connectors. Because of some >arthritis I felt dissatisfied with crimp together terminals--and as far as I know >there are no Go-NoGo test strips for these. > Actually, there's something better, especially considering your arthritis: ratchet-style crimpers. If you don't squeeze it enough to release the ratchet, it's not done. If you do, it is. -John (P.S. Of course, there's never a guarantee - but in light of your situation, this is as good a solution as you're going to find - do a calibrated pull-test every so often, if you like, but once the tool is setup correctly, it shouldn't vary much over hundreds of crimps.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: getting the horse back out in front of the
cart . . . "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > ????? That's what a shunt does for you. Let's you measure > current in a remote location on tiny wires irrespective of > how much current is being measured/monitored. I knew ammeters had a shunt. Are you saying that I could remove the shunt from the meter on the panel and remote it all the way back to the firewall (Velocity) and run a pair of 26 gauge wires back to the panel and connect directly to the movement (or something analogous to this with an off-the-shelf calibrated shunt)? That might solve the problem if the "movement" of the current meter was any good or I could obtain an easily installable substitute. > > > I still have charging voltage, so it's no great loss. Don't trust the > > meter anyway. It stays on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that > > much when system is charging a > >low battery. > > What is the basis for your distrust? If you have a loadmeter now > that behaves as you describe, it COULD be entirely accurate. A soggy > battery recharges at relatively slow rates (especially if your > bus voltage is set too low) and the "constant charge reading" > may simply be the sum total of equipment loads (relatively > constant) + a small charging value for battery. Actually, it reads 15-20 amps charge with everything in the airplane turned off (like that's where it lives). It shows a much smaller movement toward discharge than I believe is actually happening when I turn everything on, and shows maybe 25-30 amps (5-10 net) charge in flight. Very small indications zeroed at 15-20 amps. Charging voltage OTOH starts at 13-13.5 after start after long period of inactivity and builds toward 14.5. Ammeter doesn't move much. Shows maybe 10 A max charge when alternator (interpreting charging voltage) appears to be pretty much at capacity. > > > Lack of trust simply means "lack of understanding" . . . if > you know the instrument is bogus, why leave it in the airplane? The power supply to most of the airplane passes through this ammeter. If I took it out, I would have to install a terminal stud very nearby to house the cables going to/from the meter. It's basically a terminal block right now, and not at all an easy one to get at.. > > If you haven't checked it for proper operation, then it may > very well be trying to tell you something useful about > what's going on in your airplane. I described above what I've observed. I don't believe it's telling me anything particularly useful. I was hoping one of the inductive units would come with all that was needed to play including display. No such luck. > > > > As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to have a power supply and > > display device. Way more trouble than it's worth. > >Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my meager electronic > >abilities ... Jim S. > > I'm not sure that's true. Your earliest postings on this > thread was "how do I do this?" . . . for which you received > some useful and lucid replies. Now, I sense from your > responses that you've not yet explored "what do I need?" Agreed. I was not forthcoming with all the facts, guessing that they weren't pivotal considerations. > > "how is it useful to me as a pilot/maintainer of an airplane" > and "what is the most efficient way of achieving that > performance?" It would be nice to have a loadmeter, but charging voltage is enough information to get by so absence of a loadmeter is an inconvenience but certainly not a show stopper. Since all of the output of the alternator goes to the firewall mounted Alt relay and thence to the Master relay and on to either the battery or the busses, that area is the only place to reaslitically measure current flow. Gathering that data and remoting it to an appropriate display on the panel is my challenge. > > > I'm working with a group of folks on a six-sigma team with > a mission to improve communications and collective understanding > amongst 800 engineers spread in little clumps over a square > mile. The initial thrust of many efforts like this is to > start gathering answers. I've suggested that questions are > more important than answers. If you don't ask all the questions > and place them in some logical order of significance, then > whatever answers are assembled at random (while perfectly accurate) > may not reveal solutions to a problem. Your question was > too far down the road so folks who answered could only assume > that the earlier studies to lay foundation were already understood. > This appears not to be the case. Agreed. > > > Let's back up a bit and have you explain what you have now, > how and why it falls short of your perceptions of what you > need and THEN figure out the combination of hardware that > fits your requirements for space, weight, cost and > relative complexity. OK. You asked for it. Here's [the mess] that came at me with the plane: From the Alt side of the split master switch, there's a 2-conductor shielded 24-26 AWG wire that originally went (both conductors wired in parallel) to the "F" terminal of an internally regulated 40 amp alternator (which went south). I replaced that unit with an externally regulated (generic Ford regulator) also 40 amp unit that I owned, using the in-place parallel wires to excite the regulator. Output from the alternator runs about 10" through 8- or 10-gauge cable and passes through a 1.5" x 1.5" x 0.5" metal box with 1/4" terminals on each side and a mounting flange (I'm told this is a fusible link) and thence for about 10' to the ammeter in the instrument panel. From the ammeter, another 10' run of 10 gauge wire returns to the firewall mounted master solenoid and another foot or so to the battery. That's about a 20' run of 10 gauge wire to charge the battery (I didn't like that at all on account of line losses). There was no over voltage protection on the original internally regulated alternator and only what the Ford regulator gave me on the other unit. What I've done: I have split the two conductors from the Alt switch to the alternator. One circuit goes from the essential buss through a small LED indicator and connects to the "A" conductor of the pair. At the other end (in the engine compartment) it goes straight to the "I" spade terminal on the alternator where it is grounded (and lights the light) until the alternator comes on line and then is reversed biased to no voltage and the light goes out. The original output from the Alt switch connects to the "B" conductor of the pair at the instrument panel. In the engine compartment near the alternator the "B" lead splits, one lead going to the "F" terminal on the alternator, the other back to the forward firewall, through a fuze to the Alt relay. The B&C crowbar goes from that terminal to ground. I ran a 10 gauge cable from the alternator B+ to the Alt relay. and a short #10 from the output side of the Alt relay to the output side of the Master relay. From there the original alternator output cable as well as the charging cable run in parallel to the ammeter on the panel. Charging current from the alternator goes pretty much the most direct route (through the Alt relay) to the battery. I have parallel 10 gauge cables carrying current to the instrument panel area.. Since there were two #10 cables in place as well as the 2-conductor #24 run from panel to firewall, I didn't have to run any additional wire through the difficult-to-work-with chase from the firewall to the instrument panel. An event that drove me NUTS for the past two days is the Alt relay. I ordered a master relay from Wick's and finally figured out that the activating terminal is not (as I had assumed) grounded to the relay case, but to one of the current carrying posts. The crowbar circuit as well as the indicator needs it to be grounded to the case. That will set me back about a week, finding and obtaining a suitable unit. I really appreciate your help on this. Regards, Jim Sower ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 31, 2003
Subject: Re: Dome lights
In a message dated 10/31/2003 7:19:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com writes: > I have located a 4 LED solution for around $20, but not sure how much light > it would throw. Art, I found a small "step light" about 5/8" x 2" (approx from recollection), that utilizes LEDs. It is made by Hella. Got it from West Marine for about $12, I think. The unit I have has red LED's (also comes in white, and orange-yellow I think). I tried it out last weekend. Positioned at the roof of the Glastar behind the pilot, it will light the entire forward baggage area. Would need another unit to do the aft part. Am also thinking of putting a couple under the glareshield to lite the footwells for the stuff that drops down there. I tried this after dusk with the lights in the hanger out, and thought the units provided all the light in those area that I would need at nite. Doug Windhorn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2003
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: All New Matronics Email List Online Chat!!!
Hi Listers! A number of Listers have been asking for some Matronics Email List online chat and NOW ITS HERE! Over the last couple of days I've set up a nifty web-based Chat site here on the Matronics systems. No special programs to download; all you need is a late model web browser like Internet Explorer or Netscape with a java plugin. I would recommend downloading the latest Java plugin if you experience any problems getting the page to come up. Here's a link to the Sun Java download website. http://java.com/en/index.jsp Look for the green box with the yellow arrow in the upper right corner. Before you bother, though, just try you browser because it'll probably just work. Each Email List on Matronics has its own "Room" and all rooms can easily be accessed from the same client. In the Email List URL Trailer at the bottom of each List message, you'll find the Link to this List's specific Chat Room. Just click on the Link, and then type in your name or email address in the User Name box. Try to use a name or email address that the other Listers know you by. You'll find me lurking around the various List chat rooms as "MattDralle". There's a couple of nifty features I'll explain right off. On the main Chat Window page after you login, you'll see a little icon with a Hammer and a Screwdriver. This is the Control Panel window. Once the Control Panel comes up, click on the "Settings" tab. Here you'll find, among other things, three check boxes to enable sound. Click all three and you'll be treated to a sound whenever someone enters or leaves the Room, or when someone sends a message. The other cool button is the one that has four little arrows pointing to each of the four corners of the button. This will rip the main Chat window from the web page and allow you to resize and move it anyway you'd like. Let's have some fun and get to know one another better using this awesome new Chat Room! To get started, just click the URL Link below for this List's specific Chat Room! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin PS - I'm working on a web link interface to the chat logfiles. Coming soon... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: getting the horse back out in front of the
cart . . .
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
> "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > > ????? That's what a shunt does for you. Let's you measure > > current in a remote location on tiny wires irrespective of > > how much current is being measured/monitored. > > Jim Sower wrote: > > I knew ammeters had a shunt. Are you saying that I could remove the shunt from > the meter on the panel and remote it all the way back to the firewall (Velocity) > and run a pair of 26 gauge wires back to the panel and connect directly to the > movement (or something analogous to this with an off-the-shelf calibrated shunt)? > That might solve the problem if the "movement" of the current meter was any good > or I could obtain an easily installable substitute. Ah-ha! The confusion becomes clear! Jim, ammeters with internal shunts are actually not the standard practice here, or at least not in homebuilts (I don't know what certified ships use - Bob?), and for the exact reason you describe - it's a pain to run the wiring. You would normally use a shunt (essentially a simple current-to-voltage converter) located in the exact spot you want to measure, and NOT run huge 4AWG or similar wires up behind your panel. And yes, you can then run a much smaller and lighter wire pair up to the meter. B&C has a whole page of shunts of various sizes at: http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?15X358218 Then you use an ammeter designed for an external shunt, which is really just a voltmeter with a typical range of 0-50mV. The face of the "voltmeter" is painted with a scale calibrated to the correct range, which you need to know. You pick your shunt to match your meter, not your "expected" current flow - when the shunt has 50mV across it, your meter should show full-scale, and that full scale (suppose it's 40A) needs to be correct! That's why B&C has so many sizes available. You might want something bigger than 26AWG though; 22AWG might be more appropriate. Bob, do you have a recommendation on maximum resistance in the wiring to an ammeter? I don't remember what these meters have as an internal coil resistance so I can't do the math on errors associated with wiring resistance. Since I've gone digital I don't even have one to measure. Basically, Jim, you want the wiring to the meter to have a very small resistance compared to the wiring inside the meter, which is the coil that creates the electromagnet and moves the needle. This will make the meter more accurate. The more resistance the wire has, the greater the relative voltage drop across it compared to the meter's needle, and the less accurate the meter will be. If you care. Regards, Chad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: Richard May <ram45(at)comporium.net>
Subject: Re: Engine cranking problem in Glasair
I'm building a Glasair 3, and have the Skytec High Touque starter. And it cranks my 300hp Lyc. with enthusiasm. It's not the permanent magnet type, like the newer Skytec's. But is still offered for sale, and I believe due to it's more powerful cranking ability. I crank my engine over on a regular basis to help lubricate it and push oil around inside it to help prevent corrosion. It will crank fine with the plugs in under compression. And I use a variety of batteries. And even connect them with copper house wiring and it still cranks fine. I'd suspect your starter first. They are fairly easy to change out, if you want to borrow one to see if it helps. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Garmin-AT ACU resolver questions
Date: Nov 01, 2003
Fellow listers, I am installing a UPSAT full stack with GX-60 and SL-30 with their ACU attached to a Century NSD-1000 HSI as the primary display indicator. Here's my question: With the SL-30 NAV side set to output resolver signals (not switched by the ACU - supposed to be direct connected to the display) and the GX-60 outputting converter signalling (all it has) switched through the ACU, with the ACU set for GPS (sending the GPS converter signalling to the display) the SL-30 being direct connected can still send its resolver signals to the display....what happens when the display "sees" both sets of signals? I would think that they could cause the indicator to do weird things - especially if they are directionally conflicting. I have contacted the Garmin-AT folks about this...they want to look at the pinouts for my NSD1000. Their system is configured the same way if you were to use their display head and wire it the way their website - and documentation shows. Maybe their gear ignores one set of signals - or favors one set over the other. There are a pair of take-offs from the ACU that I could use to pick a set of relays to prevent this from happening...or figure out a way to set the SL-30 NAV side to an off configuration while I'm using the GPS. What are your thoughts on this? I'm puzzled. Ralph Capen RV6A - wiring.......... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2003 List Fund Raiser - Please Support Your Lists...
Dear Listers, During November of each year, I have a voluntary Email List Fund Raiser to support the continued operation, development, maintenance and upgrade of the Email Forums sponsored here. Your Contributions go directly into improvements in the systems that support the Lists and to pay for the Internet connectivity primarily dedicated to supporting the Lists. The traffic on the Lists continues to grow and the numbers are nothing short of impressive! Here are some statistics that show how much traffic the Lists generated this year alone: * 11/01/2002 - 10/31/2003 o Web server hits: 10,446,780 (870,565/mo) o Incoming Email Posts: 58,918 (4,909/mo) List-related upgrades this year have been plentiful, and List performance has substantially improved as a result. Upgrades and enhancements this year have included: * Internet Connection upgrade to a full, commercial-grade T1 Line! * New Web Server platform - Dual 3Ghz Xeon with 2Gb Ram and U320 SCSI! * Upgrade of Email Server platform - Dual 1.7 Ghz Xeon with 1Gb Ram! * All new SPAM Filtering Appliance - filters about 98% of the unwanted SPAM! * All new, web-base List Chat Room society! As you can well imagine, this year's upgrades translate into a fair amount of cash outlay on my part and this annual List Fund Raiser is the sole means by which I fund these upgrades. Unlike most of the other "list servers" on the Web these days, I have a strict *no-commercial-advertisement policy* on the Matronics Lists and associated List web sites. I was again approached by a number of vendors recently with advertising deals that have been very tempting. My commitment to providing a grass-roots, non-commercial environment prevailed, however! Commercialism on the Internet seems to be increasing exponentially every year, with more and more SPAM and pop up ads, not to mention the ever increasing Virus attacks. My goal with the Matronics List Service is to provide all members with a commercial-free, virus-free, and high-performance system with which the may share information, ideas, and camaraderie. The best news this year is that, with the gracious help of Andy Gold and The Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), I have been able to significantly expand the lineup of fantastic Gift offers to support the List Fund Raiser! In all, there are eight awesome free gifts this year ranging from List Archive CD's to Flight Computers with qualifying Contribution levels. Those great Jeppesen Flight Bags that were so popular last year are even back! A special thanks goes out to Andy Gold again this year for his very kind and generous support of the Lists. Thanks Andy, for these great incentives!! Over the next month I'll be posting a few reminder messages about the List Fund Raiser, and I ask for your patience and understanding during the process. Remember that the Lists are *completely* funded through the generous Contributions of its members. That's it! There's no support from a bloated advertising budget or deep pockets somewhere. Its all made possible through YOUR thoughtful and generous support! To make your List Contribution using a Visa or MasterCard, PalPal, or with a personal check, please go to the URL link below. Here you can find additional details on this year's great free Gifts as well as information on the various methods of payment. Contributions in the $20, $30, $50, $75, and $100 range are common. The Contribution web page is kind of long this year with the details of each of the gifts, so please scroll all the way down! SSL Secure Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contributions I would like to thank everyone who supports the Lists this year! Your Contributions truly make it all possible!! Thank you!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gabe A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Dual Battery System With Standby Battery
Date: Nov 01, 2003
Bob and all: I'm helping a friend with his rotary powered RV9A's electrical system. He wants an all electric system with dual batteries. But he would like one of the batteries to be on standby and isolated from the alternator and charging system. The battery would be charged on the ground by a battery charger every couple of months. Assume that the battery is new when installed. Can a voltmeter reading, before each fllight, of the standby battery predict its ampere hour capacity for the next year or two? Thanks Gabe A Ferrer RV6 N2GX 83 hours South Florida Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net Cell: 561 758 8894 Night Phone: 561 622 0960 Fax: 561 622 0960 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: getting the horse back out in front . . .
This is a long post . . .I wanted to leave several exchanges of the thread intact along with sketches I've added to illustrate points. I may convert this to an illustrated .html document and post on the website. I think it's a good illustration of the value of getting ALL the questions identified and asked before we begin gluing too many of the answers together. ======================================================================================== > > >"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > ????? That's what a shunt does for you. Let's you measure > > current in a remote location on tiny wires irrespective of > > how much current is being measured/monitored. > >I knew ammeters had a shunt. Are you saying that I could remove the shunt >from the meter on >the panel and remote it all the way back to the firewall (Velocity) and >run a pair of 26 >gauge wires back to the panel and connect directly to the movement (or >something analogous to >this with an off-the-shelf calibrated shunt)? That might solve the >problem if the "movement" >of the current meter was any good or I could obtain an easily installable >substitute. Yup, that's the big ADVANTAGE of a shut . . . you can keep fat wires out of the instrument environment yet do measurements on huge current values on small wires (26 is pretty small and not fun to work with - 22AWG is recommended as the smallest practical airframe wire). Now, if you increase the ammeter extension wires to 20AWG, then you can take advantage of the fusible link kits now offered by B&C where you get some silicone jacketed, fiberglas sleeving, some but splices and 24AWG (sometimes hard to find) wire for use as shown at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuselink/fuselink.html Virtually ALL ammeters of any quality are DESIGNED to work with EXTERNAL shunts. These instruments have a 50 mv full scale movement and can be marked to depict ANY desired full scale value in amperes while in fact, the REAL current flowing through the instrument is perhaps at most a few milliamps. This was the sum and substance of on of the earlier replies in this thread. > > > > What is the basis for your distrust? If you have a loadmeter now > > that behaves as you describe, it COULD be entirely accurate. A soggy > > battery recharges at relatively slow rates (especially if your > > bus voltage is set too low) and the "constant charge reading" > > may simply be the sum total of equipment loads (relatively > > constant) + a small charging value for battery. > >Actually, it reads 15-20 amps charge with everything in the airplane >turned off (like that's >where it lives). It shows a much smaller movement toward discharge than I >believe is >actually happening when I turn everything on, and shows maybe 25-30 amps >(5-10 net) charge in >flight. Very small indications zeroed at 15-20 amps. Charging voltage >OTOH starts at >13-13.5 after start after long period of inactivity and builds toward >14.5. Ammeter doesn't >move much. Shows maybe 10 A max charge when alternator (interpreting >charging voltage) >appears to be pretty much at capacity. Very good. I don't recall reading that earlier. Forgive me if you included that data in an earlier post. I try to hit the list 5-10 times a day and in the haste of attempting to address as many items as possible it's easy to miss some of the more salient points . . . Based on what you've stated above, I'll suggest that your current instrument is trash. > > Lack of trust simply means "lack of understanding" . . . if > > you know the instrument is bogus, why leave it in the airplane? > >The power supply to most of the airplane passes through this ammeter. If >I took it out, I >would have to install a terminal stud very nearby to house the cables >going to/from the >meter. It's basically a terminal block right now, and not at all an easy >one to get at. A important feature of the current collection of Z-drawings currently published in the 'Connetion is the notion of tying the alternator b-lead into the system right at the starter contactor on the firwall. The fat wires associated with alternator output are a couple of feet long at most and easy to access for installation/maintenance/inspection any time the cowl is off. > > If you haven't checked it for proper operation, then it may > > very well be trying to tell you something useful about > > what's going on in your airplane. > >I described above what I've observed. I don't believe it's telling me >anything particularly >useful. I was hoping one of the inductive units would come with all that >was needed to play >including display. No such luck. I agree . . . it's time to pitch that dead dog . . . > > > As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to have a power supply and > > > display device. Way more trouble than it's worth. > > >Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my meager electronic > > >abilities ... Jim S. > > > > I'm not sure that's true. Your earliest postings on this > > thread was "how do I do this?" . . . for which you received > > some useful and lucid replies. Now, I sense from your > > responses that you've not yet explored "what do I need?" > >Agreed. I was not forthcoming with all the facts, guessing that they >weren't pivotal >considerations. No big problem here . . . I see it all the time in my "other life" . . . I suggested earlier that questions are more important than answers. The focus of thought my dozens of helpful folks can be charging off in the wrong direction or slaying dragons that don't need slaying because not all of the right questions have been asked. If I had asked a simple question in March of '98, "where is the shaft breaking", I could have avoided over two years of jousting the wrong dragons while searching the cause for a series of failures that were costing us $millions$. Now, three years after identifying the right dragon, the problem still isn't fixed but that's another story. > > "how is it useful to me as a pilot/maintainer of an airplane" > > and "what is the most efficient way of achieving that > > performance?" > >It would be nice to have a loadmeter, but charging voltage is enough >information to get by so >absence of a loadmeter is an inconvenience but certainly not a show >stopper. Since all of >the output of the alternator goes to the firewall mounted Alt relay and >thence to the Master >relay and on to either the battery or the busses, that area is the only >place to >reaslitically measure current flow. Gathering that data and remoting it >to an appropriate >display on the panel is my challenge. Very good. I've suggested that things like ammeters and voltmeters are most useful for diagnostics. Given that they display exactly the same data 999 times out of 1000, they become very poor warning devices because of two common traits of the human condition (1) since we're quite used to seeing the same readings for countless observations is easy to miss an out-of-the-ordinary reading when it does happen and/or (2) since the information received 99.9% of the time is essentially un-interesting, we tend to look at those instruments less often. The ammeter on most airplanes I fly is tucked in an out-of-the-way corner of the panel so as not to use up "valuable" real estate for so lowly an instrument . . . >OK. You asked for it. Here's [the mess] that came at me with the plane: > From the Alt side of the split master switch, there's a 2-conductor > shielded 24-26 AWG wire >that originally went (both conductors wired in parallel) to the "F" >terminal of an internally >regulated 40 amp alternator (which went south). I replaced that unit with >an externally >regulated (generic Ford regulator) also 40 amp unit that I owned, using >the in-place parallel >wires to excite the regulator. If the shielded pair runs directly from the split-rocker master switch to the alternator, do I correctly infer that the master switch was wired as shown in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_1.gif > Output from the alternator runs about 10" through 8- or >10-gauge cable and passes through a 1.5" x 1.5" x 0.5" metal box with 1/4" >terminals on each >side and a mounting flange (I'm told this is a fusible link) Is this a commercially produced unit? Do you know what it really contains? I've seen builders shun the rather fat ANL limiters and bases in favor of building an automotive mini-ANL into their own enclosure thusly: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_2.gif I DON'T recommend this. The metal box is usually grounded to the firewall. The mechanical integrity of the insulating washers is at risk here. They are relatively thin and not robust. This assembly puts very small clearances between fat wires carrying lots of current adjacent to hard-ground enclosures. I couldn't certify this arrangement. This is one case where those-who-know-more-about-airplanes-than-we-do make sense. Yes, the ANL+base combo is pretty honky. If you just gotta have a smaller part, consider the Littlefuse MIDI style or some of the Bussman miniature high current fuses but when fabricating a base, bandsaw out a piece of Delrin or phenonic, drill holes for brass fuse studs and for mounting base to airframe. Counter bore holes for fuse studs so that heads of screws are under-flush to bottom surface. see http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_3.gif After installing studs, pot the counter-bore with expoxy to capture screw head and insulate the screw from electrical contact. Hex headed screws are really good here . . . lets the epoxy get a good grip on it. Also, steel is probably okay since your ring terminal that carries current on and off the fuseholder is bolted right against the fuse tab . . . the bolt will carry only a tiny percentage of total current flow. > and thence for about 10' to the >ammeter in the instrument panel. From the ammeter, another 10' run of 10 >gauge wire returns >to the firewall mounted master solenoid and another foot or so to the >battery. That's about >a 20' run of 10 gauge wire to charge the battery (I didn't like that at >all on account of >line losses). There was no over voltage protection on the original >internally regulated >alternator and only what the Ford regulator gave me on the other unit. Your misgivings about this are well founded for reasons cited and for a few more that I could add. It would be better that the alternator b-lead were replaced with a hunk of 4AWG running from b-terminal through a shunt, b-lead fuse and then to starter contactor. >What I've done: >I have split the two conductors from the Alt switch to the >alternator. One circuit goes from >the essential buss through a small LED indicator and connects to the "A" >conductor of the >pair. At the other end (in the engine compartment) it goes straight to >the "I" spade >terminal on the alternator where it is grounded (and lights the light) >until the alternator >comes on line and then is reversed biased to no voltage and the light goes >out. Understand. This tells me that you now have an internally regulated alternator and that voltage from the panel to tell the alternator when to go to work carries no field current. > The original >output from the Alt switch connects to the "B" conductor of the pair at >the instrument >panel. In the engine compartment near the alternator the "B" lead splits, >one lead going to >the "F" terminal on the alternator, the other back to the forward >firewall, through a fuze to >the Alt relay. The B&C crowbar goes from that terminal to ground. I ran >a 10 gauge cable >from the alternator B+ to the Alt relay. and a short #10 from the output >side of the Alt >relay to the output side of the Master relay. From there the original >alternator output >cable as well as the charging cable run in parallel to the ammeter on the >panel. What size is your alternator? >Charging current from the alternator goes pretty much the most direct >route (through the Alt >relay) to the battery. I have parallel 10 gauge cables carrying current >to the instrument >panel area.. Since there were two #10 cables in place as well as the >2-conductor #24 run >from panel to firewall, I didn't have to run any additional wire through the >difficult-to-work-with chase from the firewall to the instrument >panel. An event that drove >me NUTS for the past two days is the Alt relay. I ordered a master relay >from Wick's and >finally figured out that the activating terminal is not (as I had assumed) >grounded to the >relay case, but to one of the current carrying posts. The crowbar circuit >as well as the >indicator needs it to be grounded to the case. That will set me back >about a week, finding >and obtaining a suitable unit. B&C stocks the S702-1, 4-terminal contactors I illustrate in all of the applications where this contactor is suitable. They can get one in your hands post-hasty If it were my airplane and I elected not to replace the pair of 10AWG wires, then I'd probably wire pretty much like: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_4.gif Here you see that we use the original shielded pair of conductors together as alternator control. Forget the "I" terminal . . . there are alternator failure modes that may not illuminate the bulb driven from this terminal. However, the alternator may not start up unless you wire a 150 ohm, 2w resistor from "F" to "I" . . . try it without and add resistor if alternator doesn't come on line. Buy or build a low-voltage warning sensor like our AEC9005-101 shown at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html or build your own per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf Either one installs per http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf Parallel the two 10AWG wires for a main bus feed. Two strands of 10AWG, 10' long gives you a wiring resistance of about 5 milliohms. So if you loaded a 60A alternator to 100% of capacity, would give you 0.3 volts drop in your main bus feed. You won't be loading the system to 60a so this is an acceptable compromise. Now, let's talk about loadmeters, voltmeters, et. als. As I mentioned earlier, these are poor warning devices and by-and-large, useful only for troubleshooting. If your low voltage warning light came on before you cranked the engine and went out after the engine was started and alternator is running then you KNOW that it's carrying all of the present loads. If the light comes on, in what way could you use ANY readings from a loadmeter, battery ammeter or voltmeter to drive decisions for the balance of the flight? Of course you're going to have a battery with enough KNOWN capacity to get you to airport of intended destination powering only useful stuff. I'll suggest that under these conditions, whatever readings you get from a voltmeter or ammeter of any kind are of no value to you as a pilot. Soooo . . . if you built your airplane with NO panel mounted electrical instrumentation other than active notification of low voltage, I've have no heartburn with it. Of course, you DO have a hole in the panel were the ammeter used to go. Rather than plug it with a piece of sheet aluminum, I suppose you could put something useful in there like an OAT indicator, perhaps a 760VHF second comm radio. Or, what the heck, a voltmeter certainly wouldn't hurt. While voltmeter and ammeter data are useful to mechanics trying to troubleshoot a mis-behaving system, they are P.S. (panel schmaltz) to the pilot. So, if you leave the shunt out, you don't need to run any new wires to the panel. Existing wires will suffice . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
Date: Nov 01, 2003
> You've admitted to some "bad judgement" where I'm having > trouble figuring out what's bad about it. As I've suggested > to others, lets see what you have in hand, what you want to > achieve in the finished product and then figure out the > most attractive combination of parts and techniques will > get this done. My perception is that you're belabored with > some erroneous or at least mis-understood concepts....Bob . . . > Hello, Bob: You're right - bad judgement with weak skills. I used your book for general reading throughout my project. I should have ramped up at this stage on the electrical knowledge, before starting this work. This is what I have done. I installed the 70 amp alternator although I need less than 35 amps (VFR only). I "assumed" that if I installed a 35 amp breaker on the alternator switch that I would be protected from the summation of the electricity drawn by the systems. I penetrated the firewall, etc., with wire based upon 40 amps, using a 40 amp shunt/ammeter. I finally determined that on a low charge battery that the alternator would deliver more than the wire could handle - on the wire from the alternator. It seems to me that the significant change would involve replacing the #8 wire from the alternator to the contactor with #4. No ANL fuse/limiter? ? ? If I have the 35 amp breaker for the alternator switch it seems that I would NOT have to replace the #8 wire from the battery contactor to the main bus with #4 (per Z-2). I have #2awg for the battery positive and negative, engine ground, master and starter relays and the starter. Of course, I must swallow my pride and learn, then analyze requirements, then revise the design. BTW: I got into trouble using the Vans electrical diagram (OP-10). On a call today they said what I did was alright. HMMM! They have sold a lot of RV-6s. Thanks for the tremendous help - Matt too! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Szantho" <szantho(at)usa.com>
Subject: Re: Ground wire
Date: Nov 01, 2003
I am working on the landing light, recognition light, strobe and roll servo wiring for my RV9-A wings. What is the best way to wire the ground? Should I go directly from each device to the wing front spar (multiple ground points (faston tabs?)), or should I run a #10 wire (would this be the optimum size?) for the entire length of the wing to a common ground point in the fuselage/wings and connect to this common ground wire? I could run this wire in a conduit I have in each wing. I feel somewhat lost, may be there are other options? Can anyone help? John Szantho (RV9-A wings) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Garmin-AT ACU resolver questions
Date: Nov 01, 2003
> > I am installing a UPSAT full stack with GX-60 and SL-30 with > their ACU attached to a Century NSD-1000 HSI as the primary > display indicator. > > Here's my question: With the SL-30 NAV side set to output > resolver signals (not switched by the ACU - supposed to be > direct connected to the display) and the GX-60 outputting > converter signalling (all it has) switched through the ACU, > with the ACU set for GPS (sending the GPS converter > signalling to the display) the SL-30 being direct connected > can still send its resolver signals to the display....what > happens when the display "sees" both sets of signals? I > would think that they could cause the indicator to do weird > things - especially if they are directionally conflicting. Ralph, I cannot understand your question. Please clarify a couple things. What is an ACU? When you talk about resolver stuff, are you perhaps talking about the course deviation indicator signals? My understanding of the resolver is that it is the method by which the Nav radio knows what direction you have the OBS pointed. In any case, it would seem not right to have a situation where more than one signal can get to anything. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 397 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: getting the horse back out in front . . .
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: This is a long post . . .I wanted to leave several exchanges of the thread intact along with sketches I've added to illustrate points. I feel like I'm really getting somewhere now. I'll try to shorten the post. > > Yup, that's the big ADVANTAGE of a shut . . . (26 is pretty small and not fun to work > with - > 22AWG is recommended as the smallest practical airframe wire). If I had too-small wire already in the chase, and bought an indicator a size too small for the shunt, would the line losses tend to make them match better? I don't need precision current flow - just a good indication of what the alternator's putting out. Based on what you've stated above, I'll suggest that your current instrument is trash. Agreed. For some time it's being used only as a terminal block for all them #10 cables. > > ... tying the alternator b-lead > into the system right at the starter contactor on the firwall. I'm tying it to either the "low" side of the master relay or the "high" side of the starter relay as soon as it clears the Alt relay.. > > > If the shielded pair runs directly from the split-rocker master switch > to the alternator, do I correctly infer that the master switch was wired > as shown in: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_1.gif Not quite. When Alt rocker is on (output hot) it follows conductor "A" to (near) alternator where a "Y" branches: to "F" terminal on Alt; to control terminal on Alt relay. The "B" strand is not connected to Alt rocker (as it used to). Wire from some fused power terminal nearby goes through warning light and attaches to "B" conductor. In engine compartment, "B" conductor goes to "I" terminal on alternator. New related question: Since Alt rocker switch switches both B+ (through relay) and internal regulator (through "F" terminal) could I simplify wiring by switching ONLY the Alt relay, and stringing a 3" 22 ga jumper from B+ to "F"? If Alt rocker is OFF, Alternator B+ is connected to nothing. If Alt Rocker is ON, Alternator B+ is connected to hot post on Starter or Master relay and jumper turns on the internal regulator. Does this make sense, particularly around eliminating one more piece of wire in engine compartment? > > Output from the alternator runs ... (I'm told this is a fusible link) > > Is this a commercially produced unit? Do you know what > it really contains? No and No. No labels, no nothing, just a sealed unit. > I've seen builders shun the rather fat > ANL limiters and bases in favor of building an automotive > mini-ANL into their own enclosure thusly: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_2.gif > > I DON'T recommend this. ... the ANL+base combo is pretty honky. ... consider the > Littlefuse MIDI style or some of the Bussman miniature high current fuses > see http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_3.gif That's my plan. 50-70 amp Bussman or whatever looks good at Autozone, properly mounted. > It would be better that the alternator > b-lead were replaced with a hunk of 4AWG running from b-terminal > through a shunt, b-lead fuse and then to starter contactor. Sounds like a plan. > What size is your alternator? 60 or 70 amp ND. Most likely out of a Mitsubishi (unless that's who owns ND). > B&C stocks the S702-1, 4-terminal contactors I illustrate in all > of the applications where this contactor is suitable. They > can get one in your hands post-hasty On the 4-terminal units, is one terminal connected to Alt rocker and the other to ground? Or is it grounded to the case? Or what? Guess I need to ask B&C that question :o) When I found out what my relay was doing, I cursed and stomped my foot and took some doofus engineers' names in vain. Here I thought ALL master relays were grounded to the case since there's (in my mind) no assurance of a path to ground downstream of the relay. Imagine my surprise when the builder in the next hangar informed me that the control terminal is supposed to be switched to GROUND. Weird. > If it were my airplane and I elected not to replace the pair of 10AWG wires, > then I'd probably wire pretty much like: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Thread/Figure_4.gif That's pretty much where I've already ended up (as soon as I install my shunt and new fuze :o) > Here you see that we use the original shielded pair of conductors > together as alternator control. Forget the "I" terminal . . . there > are alternator failure modes that may not illuminate the bulb driven > from this terminal. Here I went and installed that light because a) I had a conductor for it (arguably stooopid reasoning), and b) because I'd heard (I thought on this list) that some alternators get squirrley if the "I" isn't used. > However, the alternator may not start up unless > you wire a 150 ohm, 2w resistor from "F" to "I" . . . try it without > and add resistor if alternator doesn't come on line. What if I jump from B+ to "F" and thence (through the resistor above) to "I"?. That would give me NO wires to Alternator except B+ and a couple of little jumpers on the unit :o) > Buy or build a low-voltage warning sensor like our > AEC9005-101 shown at > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html > > or build your own per > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html > > and > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf > > Either one installs per > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf I think I will do that. Could mount warning light where current Alt warn resides :o) Deferrable I think. > Parallel the two 10AWG wires for a main bus feed. Two strands of > 10AWG, 10' long gives you a wiring resistance of about 5 milliohms. > So if you loaded a 60A alternator to 100% of capacity, would give > you 0.3 volts drop in your main bus feed. You won't be loading > the system to 60a so this is an acceptable compromise. That's GOOD news. > Now, let's talk about loadmeters, voltmeters, et. als. > > As I mentioned earlier, these are poor warning devices and > by-and-large, useful only for troubleshooting. ... If the light comes on, in what way > could you use > ANY readings from a loadmeter, battery ammeter or voltmeter > to drive decisions for the balance of the flight?... under > these conditions, whatever readings you get from a > voltmeter or ammeter of any kind are of no value > to you as a pilot. Hadn't thought of it that way. Makes sense. And I could likely have it for about what B&C gets for shunt and meter indicator :o) > Soooo . . . if you built your airplane with NO panel > mounted electrical instrumentation other than active > notification of low voltage, I've have no heartburn > with it. Of course, you DO have a hole in the panel > were the ammeter used to go. Rather than plug it with > a piece of sheet aluminum, I suppose you could put > something useful in there like an OAT indicator, I already have that :o) > perhaps > a 760VHF second comm radio. Have that in my GPS/Comm :o) > Or, what the heck, a voltmeter Have that too :o(( > While voltmeter and ammeter > data are useful to mechanics trying to troubleshoot > a mis-behaving system, they are P.S. (panel schmaltz) to > the pilot. So, if you leave the shunt out, you don't need > to run any new wires to the panel. Existing wires will > suffice . . . More good news :o) Thanks a whole bunch. This really REALLY helps. Now if I could only figure out why that *#%&# engineer designed that relay the way he did ... Jim S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
Subject: Re: Garmin-AT ACU resolver questions
Ralph, I considered buying a Century NSD-1000 HSI because it was $1000 cheaper than a S-TEC 180 HSI. After paying $130 for the install manual I realized that the Century required an extra "black box" to interface to the GX60/SL30. I purchased a S-TEC 180. I developed wiring diagram for the Century. Contact me off line if you want the diagram (EXCEL based). Richard Reynolds "Ralph E. Capen" wrote: > > Fellow listers, > > I am installing a UPSAT full stack with GX-60 and SL-30 with their ACU attached to a Century NSD-1000 HSI as the primary display indicator. > > Here's my question: With the SL-30 NAV side set to output resolver signals (not switched by the ACU - supposed to be direct connected to the display) and the GX-60 outputting converter signalling (all it has) switched through the ACU, with the ACU set for GPS (sending the GPS converter signalling to the display) the SL-30 being direct connected can still send its resolver signals to the display....what happens when the display "sees" both sets of signals? I would think that they could cause the indicator to do weird things - especially if they are directionally conflicting. > > I have contacted the Garmin-AT folks about this...they want to look at the pinouts for my NSD1000. Their system is configured the same way if you were to use their display head and wire it the way their website - and documentation shows. Maybe their gear ignores one set of signals - or favors one set over the other. > > There are a pair of take-offs from the ACU that I could use to pick a set of relays to prevent this from happening...or figure out a way to set the SL-30 NAV side to an off configuration while I'm using the GPS. > > What are your thoughts on this? I'm puzzled. > > Ralph Capen > RV6A - wiring.......... > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Garmin-AT ACU resolver questions
Date: Nov 02, 2003
Alex, ACU is the acronym for Annunciation Control Unit. Essentially a relay box designed to switch between GPS and NAV signals to a single display head and indicate which source is in use...in addition to a couple of other functions reguired for IFR operations. I am describing the course deviation signals that you have referred to and agree completely with your statement about more than one signal.... I know what I can do about it - my intent here is to determine if I need to as even the UPSAT / Garmin AT website shows a diagram with the potential for both signals to get to the display. See: http://www.garmin-at.com/dwnlds/stackdoc/fullstackwiring.pdf It clearly shows their CDI directly attached to their SL-30 and through their ACU. We'll get to the bottom of this soon - I hope! Ralph Capen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin-AT ACU resolver questions > > > > > > I am installing a UPSAT full stack with GX-60 and SL-30 with > > their ACU attached to a Century NSD-1000 HSI as the primary > > display indicator. > > > > Here's my question: With the SL-30 NAV side set to output > > resolver signals (not switched by the ACU - supposed to be > > direct connected to the display) and the GX-60 outputting > > converter signalling (all it has) switched through the ACU, > > with the ACU set for GPS (sending the GPS converter > > signalling to the display) the SL-30 being direct connected > > can still send its resolver signals to the display....what > > happens when the display "sees" both sets of signals? I > > would think that they could cause the indicator to do weird > > things - especially if they are directionally conflicting. > > Ralph, I cannot understand your question. Please clarify a couple > things. > > What is an ACU? > > When you talk about resolver stuff, are you perhaps talking about the > course deviation indicator signals? My understanding of the resolver is > that it is the method by which the Nav radio knows what direction you > have the OBS pointed. > > In any case, it would seem not right to have a situation where more than > one signal can get to anything. > > Alex Peterson > Maple Grove, MN > RV6-A N66AP 397 hours > www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Alts
>Hi Bob, > >Thanks for the reply. Idea is to use the Rotax alt for about 15 to 20 A >and the SD20 on the vac pad for 10A. > >Load analysis shows 22 A for VFR Day and 29 A for VFR nite (position >lights which will soon be replaced with LED's so much less draw). IFR >adds 15A for pitot heat. > >I'd like to avoid the complexity of the crankshaft back alt but maybe >thats the best solution. Any idea where to get more detail? I know Jim >Nelson has one on his Europa but it was a custom one off deal. > >After reading your book some more, maybe the Z14 is a better choice given >the comments on page 17-10 on the difficulities of paralleling two >alternators. But I'd really like to avoid two batteries because of weight >& balance. Is the parallel regulator available or buildable (I'm fairly >electronic knowledgable)? > >Thanks for your help. > I'll suggest that your proposed installation is pretty far off of the mark for the elegant solution. You're proposing to take B&C's most expensive alternator (capable of 40A but de-rated to 20A based on speed available at the mounting pad) and de-rating it further to 10A 'cause the Rotax pad is slower still. This forces the alternator to run in the same pack as B&C's least expensive alternator that is designed to put out 10A max performance. I've seen pictures of several alternator installations on the rear of Rotax engines both belt and direct drive. If your space under the cowl permits either of these installations, I'd really recommend you explore them. If you went belt drive, you can use a very inexpensive automotive take-off as the alternator which would give you a REAL energy source for probably less money than putting an SD-20 on the vacuum pump pad. For my airplane, Figure Z-13 would be the architecture of choice with the Rotax 18A machine filling the slot as AUX ALTernator. I'd really hate to see you put this fine machine together with almost-a-30-amp-system that depends on both alternators to be functioning and will cost more than a much more capable system as cited above. Your load analysis figures are suspect too. Can you share them with us? The largest IFR/VFR-Nite load I've calculated for a light SE aircraft to date was on the order of 27 A with pitot heat on and incandescent bulbs for nav lights. Your 22A daytime loads seem high. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Well considered and technically elegant answers to all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also, check out the downloadable materials at http://www.aeroelectric.com Thanks! Bob . . . |---------------------------------------------------| | A lie can travel half way around the world while | | the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . | | -Mark Twain- | |---------------------------------------------------| ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ground wire
> >I am working on the landing light, recognition light, strobe and roll servo >wiring for my RV9-A wings. What is the best way to wire the ground? Should I >go directly from each device to the wing front spar (multiple ground points >(faston tabs?)), or should I run a #10 wire (would this be the optimum >size?) for the entire length of the wing to a common ground point in the >fuselage/wings and connect to this common ground wire? I could run this wire >in a conduit I have in each wing. I feel somewhat lost, may be there are >other options? Can anyone help? > >John Szantho (RV9-A wings) You don't need to take these wires all the way to the firewall single-point ground and you DO NOT want to run them together on a single FAT ground. On a metal airplane these can ground locally to the airframe. On a composite airplane, these items would each get their own ground wire to the single-point ground. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 02, 2003
Subject: Another Dumb Builder
Bob - and anyone else with experience, I am building a RV-8A and need some advice before launching into the ether world of electricity. I have your book and have read most of it and understood only a little - hence the title of this posting. I'm planning an IO-360 with belt-driven 60A Main alternator and gear-driven 20A Aux alternator with dual batteries. The electrical system would be a split system with a crossfeed connector in case one alternator fails. The main battery will be in the front (for short wires) and the aux in the back (for CG) with ground busses near both batteries. I plan to fly IFR using the BMA EFIS with EFIS Lite as a backup. My question is: Is this electrical plan overkill? Do I need two batteries AND two alternators? Am I increasing weight and complexity unnecessarily? Given my planned operation, what might the optimum electrical system be? Stan Sutterfield Tampa, FL RV-8A Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: Paul Wilson <pwilson(at)climber.org>
Subject: Re: Dual Alts
Jim, The Rotax needs an expensive mod to utilize the vacuum pad because they do not ship the engines with the internal gears. Of course you can special order an engine with the gears or have one of the distributors take the gear box apart and add the aux gears. But as Bob points out the result is such a slow turning alternator that it is practically worthless. My suggestions are as follows in order of the simplest solution: 1) Just use the Rotax alternator and go flying with your low voltage monitor. When the LV light comes on go to the the endurance buss while the battery is recharged. Cycle back and forth until you get the feel for how long it takes to charge the battery. After each flight charge the battery using ground power. 2) Add a second battery which would be lighter than the second alternator and wire it in parallel with the other one. The use the technique of method 1) but you will have much longer range and less need to fly on the endurance buss. 3) Add a second alternator which has three solutions: A) Buy/make a longer bolt for the stator and mount a pulley on the stator for a vee belt and mount the new alternator at the rear of the engine on one side or another. This has promise as there are several places to bolt on a bracket. B) If you have the Rotax engine mount and have engine to firewall clearance then you can mount the alternator on a custom bracket and operate it via direct drive from a modified stator bolt with splines. This solution works on Europa's and possibly others. This requires a precise machining operation as alignment is quite critical and if not perfect the alternator will self destruct and possibly cause stator damage, not good. C) Mount the alternator in front. Three ways: 1) DIY with a prop flange adapter and purchased or home made bracket. 2) Rotax sells a kit for a bunch of $ that works like 1). 3) A Canada company sells a kit for less money but uses the ND alternator. Any front mount would likely result in a big blister to cover the alternator. Its kinda discouraging that Rotax has such low wattage. I guess they did not expect the engines to be used for IFR with all the goodies. Load reductions to consider: Use as many tricks as you can think of to reduce you wattage. LED panel, landing, & position lights, no pitot heat etc. Wire your position lights in series Good luck with your project, Paul ========. > >>Hi Bob, >> >>Thanks for the reply. Idea is to use the Rotax alt for about 15 to 20 A >>and the SD20 on the vac pad for 10A. >> >>Load analysis shows 22 A for VFR Day and 29 A for VFR nite (position >>lights which will soon be replaced with LED's so much less draw). IFR >>adds 15A for pitot heat. >> >>I'd like to avoid the complexity of the crankshaft back alt but maybe >>thats the best solution. Any idea where to get more detail? I know Jim >>Nelson has one on his Europa but it was a custom one off deal. >> >>After reading your book some more, maybe the Z14 is a better choice given >>the comments on page 17-10 on the difficulities of paralleling two >>alternators. But I'd really like to avoid two batteries because of weight >>& balance. Is the parallel regulator available or buildable (I'm fairly >>electronic knowledgable)? >> >>Thanks for your help. >> > > > I'll suggest that your proposed installation is pretty > far off of the mark for the elegant solution. You're > proposing to take B&C's most expensive alternator > (capable of 40A but de-rated to 20A based on speed > available at the mounting pad) and de-rating it further > to 10A 'cause the Rotax pad is slower still. This > forces the alternator to run in the same pack as > B&C's least expensive alternator that is designed > to put out 10A max performance. > > I've seen pictures of several alternator installations > on the rear of Rotax engines both belt and direct drive. > If your space under the cowl permits either of these > installations, I'd really recommend you explore them. > If you went belt drive, you can use a very inexpensive > automotive take-off as the alternator which would > give you a REAL energy source for probably less money > than putting an SD-20 on the vacuum pump pad. > > For my airplane, Figure Z-13 would be the architecture > of choice with the Rotax 18A machine filling the slot > as AUX ALTernator. > > I'd really hate to see you put this fine machine together > with almost-a-30-amp-system that depends on both alternators > to be functioning and will cost more than a much more > capable system as cited above. > > Your load analysis figures are suspect too. Can you > share them with us? The largest IFR/VFR-Nite load I've calculated > for a light SE aircraft to date was on the order of 27 A > with pitot heat on and incandescent bulbs for nav lights. > Your 22A daytime loads seem high. > > I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List > to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to > share the information with as many folks as possible. > A further benefit can be realized with membership on > the list. There are lots of technically capable folks > on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can > join at . . . > > http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ > > Well considered and technically elegant answers to > all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also, > check out the downloadable materials at > > http://www.aeroelectric.com > > Thanks! > > Bob . . . > > |---------------------------------------------------| > | A lie can travel half way around the world while | > | the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . | > | -Mark Twain- | > |---------------------------------------------------| > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Messages
>Hi Bob, > >I don't know if you are getting the messages or not. Could you let me >know. No offense but I feel like I'm being avoided. > >Thanks for your hard work and dedication. > Yes, I got them. You sent these inquiries to me directly as opposed to posting on the list. I have a limited amount of time to work these tasks and I start each session with the latest AeroElectric-List messages and work backwards. If I did not do this, my responses would fall way behind on-going conversations. I try to work in the one-on-one inquiries but they have to take a back-seat to List-server conversations and it's entirely possible that a direct inquiry or even a list-server inquiry will fall of the back of the truck. So, it never hurts to post a reminder . . . especially on the list. Not trying to play any favorites or ignore anyone . . . it's the best way I know to maximize utilization of a limited resource . . . time. With respect to your inquiries. There's nothing about the list of equipment you cited that points to potential dragons to slay. I've suggested that it's not so much what you install but how you install it and what you expect from the equipment in terms of how you're going to use the airplane. For example, had you cited the list and said this is a day-vfr fair-weather fun machine, I'd suggest that you may be wasting your money. If this is an airplane that you intend to use for boring long wet holes in the cold clouds, I would have to opine that you may not have enough stuff and you certainly offered no insight as to the architecture of your electrical system. You did mention an "X-bus"???? Is this the EXP-Bus? I can offer an opinion as to that product: While it no doubt functions as advertised, it presupposes some things about your system architecture that may not be attractive. Further, for what the EXP-Bus costs, you can wire your whole airplane and probably have money left over if you purchase the components individually and match them to the architecture of choice. Let's start with what kind of airplane, how you plan to use it, have you reviewed the various architectures depicted in Appendix-Z and are any of them attractive to you? There's quite a bit to be done before you buy any equipment. Get this conversation going on the list and we'll all work to help you configure one of the best airplanes to have ever flown. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current Limiters
> > > > You've admitted to some "bad judgement" where I'm having > > trouble figuring out what's bad about it. As I've suggested > > to others, lets see what you have in hand, what you want to > > achieve in the finished product and then figure out the > > most attractive combination of parts and techniques will > > get this done. My perception is that you're belabored with > > some erroneous or at least mis-understood concepts....Bob . . . > > >Hello, Bob: You're right - bad judgement with weak skills. I used your >book for general reading throughout my project. I should have ramped up at >this stage on the electrical knowledge, before starting this work. > >This is what I have done. I installed the 70 amp alternator although I need >less than 35 amps (VFR only). I "assumed" that if I installed a 35 amp >breaker on the alternator switch that I would be protected from the >summation of the electricity drawn by the systems. I penetrated the >firewall, etc., with wire based upon 40 amps, using a 40 amp shunt/ammeter. > >I finally determined that on a low charge battery that the alternator would >deliver more than the wire could handle - on the wire from the alternator. >It seems to me that the significant change would involve replacing the #8 >wire from the alternator to the contactor with #4. No ANL fuse/limiter? ? ? >If I have the 35 amp breaker for the alternator switch it seems that I would >NOT have to replace the #8 wire from the battery contactor to the main bus >with #4 (per Z-2). I have #2awg for the battery positive and negative, >engine ground, master and starter relays and the starter. the #2 is fine but way oversized for an airplane where the battery is close to the engine. #4 would have been fine. Even if you're wired per Van's drawings, I'd recommend you move the alternator b-lead feed to the starter contactor and install an ANL-60 fuse close to the contactor. Use 4 or 6AWG for this wire. Van's drawings call for a battery ammeter a-la C-172 . . . With the b-lead out of the cockpit, you'll want to consider switching to an alternator load-meter or perhaps an expanded scale voltmeter. See: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/vdovolt.php I presume you're planning on active notification of low voltage with either a B&C regulator having this feature built in or buy buying or building one of these: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf >Of course, I must swallow my pride and learn, then analyze requirements, >then revise the design. BTW: I got into trouble using the Vans electrical >diagram (OP-10). On a call today they said what I did was alright. HMMM! >They have sold a lot of RV-6s. Thanks for the tremendous help - Matt too! Not a problem. I'll suggest you're not prideful, just embarrassed. Real pride comes from accomplishment based on understanding and you were just stirring the batter before you had added all the right ingredients. Hang in there. Completely justifiable pride will be your due when you taxi up to the pumps behind a line of Skyhawks and Cherokees. Their paint may be shiny and their panels impressive but their bones are geriatric . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Subject: Troubleshooting Loadmeter.....repost
Bob, I sent this message last week. Based on your latest email stating that it doesn't hurt to repost....here it is. I have one of your Voltmeter/Loadmeters in my 6A. I just started the engine last week and the voltmeter works fine but I am not getting any reading on the loadmeter. The Push to test button gives me the correct reading. How would I go about troubleshooting the loadmeter? My setup All electric on a budget wiring...with some tweeks 40 amp B&C 8 amp PM B&C backup One battery Shunts on both alternators A switch selects either the 40 amp or 8 amp alternator for the loadmeter/voltmeter Another problem I have to track down is that the voltmeter is not reading the 8 amp alternator voltage output. Ross Mickey N9PT Inspection on Thursday ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Broken link on your website
> >Comments/Questions: Bob: The downloadable pdf files for "Stereo music in >your airplane" are not >found on your site. Thanks for the heads up. Those earlier documents were replaced by the audio isolation amplifier data package at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf I've fixed the link on the website. > Also, could you comment on a sneaky way to put the audio warnings from >many modern instruments into a run-of-the-mill intercom? Perhaps using the >unused passenger inputs (4 place intercom in a 2 place airplane) It can probably be done. But if you're going to have to add hard wires to the airplane's warning tone outputs, wouldn't it be better to install an audio isolation amplifier and do all the mixing the right way? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net>
Subject: PTT Ground
Bob, Is there likely to be a problem using airframe ground for the PTT return line rather than the common point ground? I've use the B&C ground for all avionics and instruments. However, it would be convenient to take the PTT on the stick to a nearby airframe point. Thanks. Richard Dudley -6A finishing details ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Battery System With Standby Battery
> > >Bob and all: > >I'm helping a friend with his rotary powered RV9A's electrical system. > >He wants an all electric system with dual batteries. > >But he would like one of the batteries to be on standby and isolated from >the alternator and charging system. The battery would be charged on the >ground by a battery charger every couple of months. > >Assume that the battery is new when installed. > >Can a voltmeter reading, before each fllight, of the standby battery >predict its ampere hour capacity for the next year or two? First, has he reviewed the electrical system architectures depicted in Appendix-Z of the book? If he doesn't have access to the book, download and print http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf If he's rotary powered, then two alternators are out. A simple dual battery setup can be had by combining a second battery (Z-30) with one of the generic single alternator/single battery (Z-11). This is what I would do if it were my airplane. I would be interested in knowing what the perceived shortcoming is for wiring as described above. If my recommendation has flaws, I need to know it. If he's not taking advantage of this architecture's features because of his misunderstanding of how it works, he needs to know it. Let's help each other out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Another Dumb Builder
> >Bob - and anyone else with experience, >I am building a RV-8A and need some advice before launching into the ether >world of electricity. I have your book and have read most of it and >understood >only a little - hence the title of this posting. > >I'm planning an IO-360 with belt-driven 60A Main alternator and gear-driven >20A Aux alternator with dual batteries. The electrical system would be a >split >system with a crossfeed connector in case one alternator fails. The main >battery will be in the front (for short wires) and the aux in the back >(for CG) >with ground busses near both batteries. > >I plan to fly IFR using the BMA EFIS with EFIS Lite as a backup. My question >is: Is this electrical plan overkill? Do I need two batteries AND two >alternators? Am I increasing weight and complexity unnecessarily? Given >my planned >operation, what might the optimum electrical system be? We don't have enough information yet. Assuming you do a Figure Z-14 style system, what are sustained loads on the two busses should the main alternator be off line? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: wingtip vor antenna for 185?
> > A friend of mine that always works with you on his Velocity told me to > email you about my idea of putting a VOR antenna in the Fiberglas wing > tip of my Cessna 185. I saw in Aircraft Spruce that I can buy a wing tip > VOR antenna, but if I mount one of these in each wing tip what kind of > switching device would I use to switch from one to the other. why two? how much do you REALLY use VOR? most rv builders are finding that one antenna on a wingtip covers them for the majority of coverage they need were stations are directly in front or behind you. >Another idea would be to put a blade antenna on each side of the fuselage >just behind the cowling about mid way up. Do you think this would work as >a VOR antenna, or would the hidden wing tips be better. I thought the VORT >blades on the fuselagee would be sort of like a connard. >Let you know what you think. I'd try one under a wingtip and go from there. Personally, I haven't turned a VOR receiver on in probably 5 years or more. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/nailgun.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Butcher" <europa(at)triton.net>
Subject: Dual Alts
Date: Nov 02, 2003
Hi Bob, Still havent figured out how to reply on the list. Anyway, thanks for your comments. For load analysis, VFR day Strobes 2.9 A Fuel Pumps 2 @ 2 4A EFIS 5A Audio Pnl 2.2A AOA .3A Eng Elec 1.3A GNS 430 3 A GI 106 .5 A EFIS BU 2A GTX 327 1 A Total 22.3 A For night add Pos Lites 7.4 A Pitot 15 A Total 44.7 Got some good ideas from paul Wilson using belt to drive alt on rear of engine. thanks Jim Butcher Europa A185 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting Loadmeter.....repost
> > >Bob, > >I sent this message last week. Based on your latest email stating that it >doesn't hurt to repost....here it is. Good idea . . . >I have one of your Voltmeter/Loadmeters in my 6A. I just started the >engine last week and the voltmeter works fine but I am not getting any >reading on the loadmeter. The Push to test button gives me the correct >reading. > >How would I go about troubleshooting the loadmeter? Disconnect the loadmeter wires at the shunt and put your ohmmeter on them and see if there is "continuity" . . . you may have an open splice in a fusible link, bad connection to ammeter terminals at the instrument or a bad instrument. Measure continuity also right at the instrument terminals with the wires pulled off. >My setup > >All electric on a budget wiring...with some tweeks > >40 amp B&C >8 amp PM B&C backup >One battery >Shunts on both alternators >A switch selects either the 40 amp or 8 amp alternator for the >loadmeter/voltmeter > >Another problem I have to track down is that the voltmeter is not reading >the 8 amp alternator voltage output. The ammeter is switched manually. The voltmeter switches automatically from main bus to e-bus when the main bus goes down. So, when you open the battery master to kill the main bus, you also have to have the e-bus alternate feed switch closed for the voltmeter to see anything. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: PTT Ground
> >Bob, >Is there likely to be a problem using airframe ground for the PTT return >line rather than the common point ground? I've use the B&C ground for >all avionics and instruments. However, it would be convenient to take >the PTT on the stick to a nearby airframe point. If they designed their PTT control circuits like I'd design my PTT control circuits, local ground would be fine. Give it a try. Bob .. . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Electrical wire ...
Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets who sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and Wicks get. Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks? ... Jim S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2003
From: Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical wire ...
--- Jim Sower wrote: > Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of > aircraft wiring. Jim, Try www.wiremasters.net They have a minimum total order of $150, but no minimum on any one item. Very nice folks. Mike Salzman Fairfield, CA Lancair ES ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Benford2(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 2003
Subject: Re: Electrical wire ...
In a message dated 11/2/2003 10:31:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, canarder(at)frontiernet.net writes: > > Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of > aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets who > sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and Wicks > get. > Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks? ... Jim S. > Six moths or so ago when I was wiring my 801 I found a company in Tenn that had several colors in tfzl. I will dig through my stuff and get ya the name. I do remember they were real nice people to do business with. Ben Haas N801BH. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net>
Subject: Electrical wire ...
Date: Nov 03, 2003
> Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of > aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets > who sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and > Wicks get. Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks? > ... Jim S. Try: www.steinair.com Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 397 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical wire ...
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Date: Nov 03, 2003
Jim: Try Wiremasters 1 800-635-5342 and ask for Deb Sullivan. They have very good prices. eg. RG400 is $.86 per foot and 22759 20awg is $.051/ft. Tell her John Schroeder recommended them to you. Cheers, John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Alts
> >Hi Bob, > >Still havent figured out how to reply on the list. Anyway, thanks for >your comments. You just hit "reply" . . . and type your response . . . like you just did. >For load analysis, VFR day > >Strobes 2.9 A >Fuel Pumps 2 @ 2 4A (Do both of these pumps run all the time?) >EFIS 5A >Audio Pnl 2.2A (this is too much for an audio panel . . . maybe this is >PEAK amps) >AOA .3A >Eng Elec 1.3A >GNS 430 3 A >GI 106 .5 A >EFIS BU 2A >GTX 327 1 A >Total 22.3 A > >For night add > >Pos Lites 7.4 A >Pitot 15 A A 100w pitot tube peaks at 15A during turnon but runs >just over 8A continuous. Further, anytime you need pitot heat (in clouds), exterior lights should be OFF. So adding pitot heat is a wash for taking the lighting down.) As I've mentioned before, the real IFR-Night max load is typically 27A. This is still too much for the 18A rotax + 10A pad driven alternator. >Got some good ideas from paul Wilson using belt to drive alt on rear of >engine. I'd sure explore this option. If you use an automotive take-off alternator, the difference in costs may even be lower than buying and SD-20 and adding pad to engine. Best yet, you can have all the power you need. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Some general thoughts on noise
> >Let's go back to your original problem. Are you suspecting that you are >getting radiated noise from the ammeter's connection all the way back to >the shunt? If so, perhaps a shielded wire would be a simpler solution. You >could also arrange a choke similar to Bob's guide, which would filter out >some of the noise at the expense of reducing the response rate of the >meter (not that you'd probably notice - it wouldn't be on the order of >seconds...) Shielded wires are almost never beneficial with noise reduction on wires associated with power distribution and generation. Shielding will only mitigate electro-static coupling between a potential antagonist (very high frequency and or very fast rise-time voltage waveforms) and potential victim wires (low level signal wires in audio and other avionics systems are typical). >Normally, this shouldn't be the source. Despite the presence of noise in >the signal, there isn't much current flowing (it's 0.05V max applied to >the meter, usually) so the radiated noise from an ammeter won't be very >large. That is, your antenna is large/long in this case, but the power >into it is small. > >You might also be well served by routing this connection elsewhere, but >you might want to investigate other noise sources. Or have you >disconnected the wire and the noise goes away? > >Bob, can you provide any insight as to the frequencies a choke would need >to cover to filter out alternator noise? Or is the choke modification you >describe in one of your articles already suitable for that? I'm making an >assumption again but it sounds like Jim might find that type of solution >useful. An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator ripple on the alternator's b-lead is bigger and heavier than the alternator. I don't think the noise he's getting is radiated in any way. It may be magnetically coupled (vicitm wires running parallel to antagonist wires) or hard wired noise like a ground-loop. Poor grounding techniques account for the vast majority of noise coupling from one system to another. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: New Fuse Block from marine supplier
>I work for a large boat manufacturing company and at a trade show in Miami >this past week found a very nice fuse block that will be introduced to >the market within the next two months http://www.bluesea.com (Don't pay >attention to their "Now Shipping" banner on their web page. They aren't >available yet. I called them yesterday and said they are in the final >production de-bugging) > >The overall advantage is that they are very well thought out, have 12 >positions (a 6-slot unit is in development but nothing larger on the >horizon), include ground terminals and translucent cover. Not sure about >price. I plan to use two - one for my switched bus and one for my >essential bus on the GlaStar I'm building, mounting them above the >footwells, behind the IP (similar to an automobile). I'll then have a >battery-fed fuse block mounted in the panel with the feeds for my CDI >ignition systems. > >These units are intended for surface mounting - the screw terminals are on >the "front" of the unit. The fuseblock is "purdy" but I would offer these thoughts: (1) It features threaded fasteners for wires. I personally work to reduce the use of threaded fasteners to a minimum for all new designs. (2) The "ground" busses need a wire to a real ground . . . a single point of failure for every system that shares the ground bus on the fuseblock. (3) Last, the need for grounds almost always outnumber the need for + supply leads . . . There is a version of the fuseblocks on B&C's website catalog that come with a 'ground bus' on and extended baseplate. While this ground bus featured fast-on terminals, it still needed a jumper wire to real ground and there weren't enough of them. I can't recommend this product for use in an airplane for reasons cited above. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Szantho" <szantho(at)usa.com>
Subject: Re:Ground wire
Date: Nov 03, 2003
Bob, Thanks for your help on my ground wire question. John Szantho RV9-A Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>
Subject: SecuringCircuitBreakers
Date: Nov 03, 2003
When I tighten the nuts on my Potter & Brumfield alternator circuit breaker such that the threaded shank just protrudes above the switch panel, the body of the breaker retains a small amount of free movement. It is not solidly fixed to the threaded shank. Is this by design or is my unit faulty? I only have the one to judge by. Or maybe the bottom nut should be backed down the shaft until it serves double duty, securing the breaker body to the threaded shank? Dave Reel - RV8A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
Subject: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
From: czechsix(at)juno.com
Guys, A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble. The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs, and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem. Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation as opposed to the transponder itself? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Philip Hildebrand <phildebrand(at)pritchardindustrial.com>
Subject: Breaker Spacing
Date: Nov 03, 2003
In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both vertical and horizontal. Thanks. Philip Hildebrand email: phildebrand(at)pritchardindustrial.com Breaker Spacing In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both vertical and horizontal. Thanks. Philip Hildebrand email: phildebrand(at)pritchardindustrial.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: SecuringCircuitBreakers
> >When I tighten the nuts on my Potter & Brumfield alternator circuit >breaker such that the threaded shank just protrudes above the switch >panel, the body of the breaker retains a small amount of free >movement. It is not solidly fixed to the threaded shank. Is this by >design or is my unit faulty? I only have the one to judge by. Or maybe >the bottom nut should be backed down the shaft until it serves double >duty, securing the breaker body to the threaded shank? > >Dave Reel - RV8A Switches and breakers with threaded bushings should be mounted with two nuts, one on top and the other behind the panel. The nut behind the panel should not put pressure on the body of the breaker or switch. Given what I know of how these things are assembled, I don't think the rotational play you describe is any indication that the breaker is faulty. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Breaker Spacing
> > > In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers >instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both >vertical and horizontal. Thanks. There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly, take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's any more useful than a fuse would do. Spacing depends first on size of devices . . . obviously, one can space them right against each other with just enough clearance for maintenance . . . but if the devices are small, human factors may override. One needs to put their fingers on panel mounted things to operate them and labels for telling us what the thing does should be big enough to read. The general rule for lettering is a nice block letter like FUTURA in .1" high is the smallest recommended lettering. Make a sketch. Start out with them pushed together tightly and then see what your panel placard will look like to label them. This exercise will quickly reveal whether or not they need to be spread out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Breaker Spacing
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Nov 03, 2003
On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot > more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion > is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly, > take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there > for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's > any more useful than a fuse would do. Hi Bob, Cessnas and such seem to have circuit breakers in addition to a separate line of switches for controlling power. In my plane I have the type of circuit breakers that have the switches built into them, so there is only one device instead of two (switches plus breakers). The plane came this way, so I am unlikely to change it, but I was just curious, what are your thoughts on these? -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
Date: Nov 03, 2003
Geez Louise!!!!!! I just installed a T-2000 in my 701 I wonder if that problem will also be incurred, Cheers Roger J. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: czechsix(at)juno.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com ; rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems Guys, A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble. The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs, and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem. Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation as opposed to the transponder itself? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Breaker Spacing
> > >On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot > > more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion > > is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly, > > take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there > > for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's > > any more useful than a fuse would do. > > >Hi Bob, > Cessnas and such seem to have circuit breakers in addition >to a separate line of switches for controlling power. >In my plane I have the type of circuit breakers that >have the switches built into them, so there is only >one device instead of two (switches plus breakers). >The plane came this way, so I am unlikely to change it, but >I was just curious, what are your thoughts on these? Circuit protection is located as close to the source of energy that has any potential for burning a wire. These power sources are commonly referred to as a "bus". Switches are by definition, pilot operated controls and usually arranged in some manner that satisfies the human-factors side of the design. Not all circuits have pilot operated switches, therefore, an airframe that uses the switch-breaker will also have some of the more conventional breakers on a separate panel located elsewhere. Switch-breakers also force the fabrication of multiple busses. The neat thing about fuse-blocks is that main, aux and endurance busses can be located in close proximity to each other and with no constraints driven by panel layout or style of hardware. If the designer wishes to group switches in something other than the contemporary one or two lines of switches. Switch breakers are much more expensive than a straight switch and comes in fewer styles. The fuse-block bus feeds can drive switches located anywhere in the airplane which offers the ultimate flexibility to the designer. Just last week, someone on the list was describing his own vision of optimum switch placement that was anything but contemporary. I'll suggest that fuse-blocks combined with switches of choice, arranged in accordance with the designer's vision of optimum design are inexpensive, flexible to the extreme and very low cost of ownership (i.e. good return on investment). Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
Date: Nov 04, 2003
From: "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)rslcom.com.au>
could it be an issue with the encoder? Ian -----Original Message----- From: Roger Roy [mailto:Savannah174(at)msn.com] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems Geez Louise!!!!!! I just installed a T-2000 in my 701 I wonder if that problem will also be incurred, Cheers Roger J. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: czechsix(at)juno.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com ; rv-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems Guys, A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble. The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs, and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem. Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation as opposed to the transponder itself? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing... ---------------------------------------------------- RSL COM has an extensive and competitive range of local and long distance call packages. We also offer converged multimedia and data services through our own state-of-the-art integrated voice & data network. Visit
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From: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: Push to Test
Date: Nov 03, 2003
Bob .. I would like to incorporate a push-to-test function on my warning lamps (such as the voltage reg. etc.) Is it as simple as running a wire from the ground side of all the lamps to a button that momentarily grounds them? If not .. do you have a drawing? Regards, David ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
> > > >could it be an issue with the encoder? The fact that this seems to happen only with local radar sites and that it is common with several radios suggests receiver overload in the T2000. The best way to test for this is get a 20db attenuator and put into the antenna line. This will cut both incoming and outgoing signals way down in strength as if the radar site were much further away. Mark, Have you discussed this with an avionics shop? They should have an attenuator you can try. Bob. . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2003
From: Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>


October 23, 2003 - November 03, 2003

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-co