AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cp
November 03, 2003 - November 17, 2003
| Subject: | Re: Some general thoughts on noise |
<... An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator ripple on the alternator's
b-lead is
bigger and heavier than the alternator ...>
Agreed. What about brush noise? Would a couple of decent size capacitors on the
B+ terminal
of the alternator suppress brush noise significantly? Or is brush noise a problem,
given the
ripple?
I'm using the capacitors but always wondered if It's doing any good ... Jim S.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> -->
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hebeard2(at)aol.com |
David,
You may want to think about adding a push to test for all of your warning
lights. In 1963 early in the 727 program, Boeing had such a momentary switch to
test many many warning lights in the cockpit. While in flight, a flight
engineer actuated this switch to demonstrate this new gee whiz feature to a customer.
When he released the switch all the lights remained ON! It not only can
happen, it did!
Harley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hamer" <s.hamer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Copper strap vs. cable for short runs |
Bob,
I'm putting together a compact little assembly that will contain both the battery
and starter contactors as well as the shunt and current limiter. These are
mounted together on a panel approximately 3.5 by 7.5 inches, so they are very
close together. The problem is, they're so close together that making cables
is a problem. I have some eighth inch thick by half inch copper I could make
connections with. Is this acceptable? Pros and cons?
Thanks,
Steve
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Copper strap vs. cable for short runs |
In a message dated 11/3/2003 11:49:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
s.hamer(at)verizon.net writes:
Bob,
I'm putting together a compact little assembly that will contain both the
battery and starter contactors as well as the shunt and current limiter. These
are mounted together on a panel approximately 3.5 by 7.5 inches, so they are
very close together. The problem is, they're so close together that making
cables is a problem. I have some eighth inch thick by half inch copper I could
make connections with. Is this acceptable? Pros and cons?
Thanks,
Steve
RV-6
Hello Steve, Sounds very robust using 1/8 X 1/2 copper stock. (would make a
very neat job too) What I would look out for is that larger (heavy) components
move even when very well secured. Relative motion could break battery posts
loose or contactor terminals may break internally. It would be safer to use
copper braided conductors to ensure flexible connections that will carry the
current you need.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Copper strap vs. cable for short runs |
>
>In a message dated 11/3/2003 11:49:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>s.hamer(at)verizon.net writes:
>Bob,
>
>I'm putting together a compact little assembly that will contain both the
>battery and starter contactors as well as the shunt and current
>limiter. These
>are mounted together on a panel approximately 3.5 by 7.5 inches, so they are
>very close together. The problem is, they're so close together that making
>cables is a problem. I have some eighth inch thick by half inch copper I
>could
>make connections with. Is this acceptable? Pros and cons?
This is commonly done. In fact, the note codes in Appendix Z drawings
suggest the use of "2AWG equivalent strap" between fat terminals of
contactors and other items where the runs are short.
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
>RV-6
>Hello Steve, Sounds very robust using 1/8 X 1/2 copper stock. (would make a
>very neat job too) What I would look out for is that larger (heavy)
>components
>move even when very well secured. Relative motion could break battery posts
>loose or contactor terminals may break internally. It would be safer to use
>copper braided conductors to ensure flexible connections that will carry the
>current you need.
Battery posts should be wired with the softest practical
conductors to reduce stress on lead terminal tabs. We started
offering 4AWG build to spec "super flex" battery leads several
years ago and B&C still offers them at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
Places where strap is practical would include a cluster of contactors
combined with perhaps an ANL limiter and/or ammeter shunts. For example,
our drawings show an ANL b-lead current limiter, loadmeter shunt and
starter contactor co-located. Copper or brass straps in the contactor-
limiter and limiter-shunt gaps is quite practical . . in fact, recommended.
1/8" thick is hard to work with and these straps don't need to be
thick. They have a LOT of surface area compared to cross section
and don't heat up like wires of equivalent cross section. You can
buy brass shapes in hobby shops. The same B&C page I cited above
offers 1/2 x .025" brass strips for fabricating bus bars. The
same material works fine for jumper straps between large terminals
of closely co-located components. If you cut your own straps,
5/8 x .032" might be a better choice but it's not real critical.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wingtip vor antenna for 185? |
>This VOR antenna is going in a certified Cessna 185 and will be used for the
>ILS appproach. I was wondering if I use the SA-003 in the wing tip, will the
>strobe on the wing tip effect the reception.
>Thank you for your help.
>Sincerely,
The LOC signal strength on approach is HUGE. Strobes
don't affect LOC performance, you might hear the popping
noises when using VOR receiver's voice feature to gather
weather info. However, when you keep the needles centered,
be prepared to be half-a-wingspan off runway centerline
when you break out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Some general thoughts on noise |
>
><... An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator ripple on the
>alternator's b-lead is
>bigger and heavier than the alternator ...>
>Agreed. What about brush noise? Would a couple of decent size capacitors
>on the B+ terminal
>of the alternator suppress brush noise significantly? Or is brush noise a
>problem, given the
>ripple?
>I'm using the capacitors but always wondered if It's doing any good ... Jim S.
Alternators don't make brush noise unless the slip rings are
out of round and the brushes are "hopping" in which case you
WANT to hear what amounts to an advance warning of difficulties.
The B+ terminal carries no manifestations of brush noise that
are filterable. Capacitors can only serve to reduce intensity
of high frequency energies that tend to interfere with ADF and
Loran installations. They don't help much with audio alternator
whine heard in many aircraft due to poor architecture decisions.
90+ plus of all OBAM aircraft are flying nicely with no filters
or shielding of any kind on the alternator. 100% of all cars
are wired this way too. I've never heard radio-frequency-pathway
alternator whine in an AM radio on a car. The fact that
Cessna has filtered and shielded alternator wires for years
is a testament to their lack of understanding when the practice
was started 40 years ago. I was there and watched it happen.
NO antagonist-propagation-victim studies were conducted nor
were any measurements taken. They threw some stuff on the
airplane and test pilots blessed it. Eureka! The myth was
born and has flourished in the decades since.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
Bob,
I ran all the conductive tests on my wires and everything checked out. I then
inspected the board and found that one of the legs of what I think is a reference
diode is broken. I will try to find one today and replace it. If I am unsucessful,
can I send it back to you for repair?
This is one of your voltmeter/loadmeters.
Ross Mickey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
Bob,
My local Norvac store does not have this piece. I think it is a LM285Z-2.5
reference diode (either that or a LM255Z-2.5). Can you send me one and let
me try to replace it or should I send you the unit?
Ross Mickey
----- Original Message -----
From: <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Loadmeter Troubleshooting
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I ran all the conductive tests on my wires and everything checked out. I
then inspected the board and found that one of the legs of what I think is a
reference diode is broken. I will try to find one today and replace it. If
I am unsucessful, can I send it back to you for repair?
>
> This is one of your voltmeter/loadmeters.
>
> Ross Mickey
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I ran all the conductive tests on my wires and everything checked out. I
>then inspected the board and found that one of the legs of what I think is
>a reference diode is broken. I will try to find one today and replace
>it. If I am unsucessful, can I send it back to you for repair?
>
>This is one of your voltmeter/loadmeters.
If you think you can effect a suitable repair, you're welcome to try
and I'll pick up the slack if it doesn't work for you. I'm concerned
that components on the board have nothing to do with the loadmeter
function.
If there's a broken wire on the board, it will affect either the
VOLTMETER function or the LOW VOLTAGE warning but no effect to
the alternator LOADMETER function.
Take a peek at http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp//MVC-014F.JPG
and describe for me which part has the broken lead.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
>Bob,
>
>My local Norvac store does not have this piece. I think it is a LM285Z-2.5
>reference diode (either that or a LM255Z-2.5). Can you send me one and let
>me try to replace it or should I send you the unit?
>
>Ross Mickey
Okay, it's one of two reference diodes on the board. I'll send
you one and if you can do a successful changeout, fine. If it
doesn't go well, send the board back and I'll work the problem.
Diode goes out today.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wingtip vor antenna for 185? |
<5.0.0.25.2.20031104091628.01a21a38(at)pop.central.cox.net>
>Will I need a splitter of the G/S, or would it be better to install a G/S
>antenna in the windshield?
>I really appreciate all this help. Do you know of any Form 337 for the wing
>tip installation?
I'd use a coupler. I'm unaware of anyone having installed
this antenna in a certified airplane on a 337 form.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
Ross Mickey
2977 Ingalls Way
Eugene, Oregon 97405
>I'm concerned that components on the board have nothing to do with the
loadmeter
>function.
>If there's a broken wire on the board, it will affect either the
>VOLTMETER function or the LOW VOLTAGE warning but no effect to
>the alternator LOADMETER function.
This is a bummer. I am not using the low voltage warning feature. It has
to be the board since all the wiring checks out.
I have all the wires into the gauge as per your instructions. Could I
switch the loadmeter and voltmeter wires and see if the voltage would read
on the loadmeter side of the gauge or would this screw things up?
Thanks, Bob.
Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Loadmeter Troubleshooting
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >My local Norvac store does not have this piece. I think it is a
LM285Z-2.5
> >reference diode (either that or a LM255Z-2.5). Can you send me one and
let
> >me try to replace it or should I send you the unit?
> >
> >Ross Mickey
>
> Okay, it's one of two reference diodes on the board. I'll send
> you one and if you can do a successful changeout, fine. If it
> doesn't go well, send the board back and I'll work the problem.
> Diode goes out today.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> _-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
> Take a peek at http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp//MVC-014F.JPG
> and describe for me which part has the broken lead.
>
> Bob . . .
The broken lead is on the lower right of the picture, the fourth component
from the right. There are two diodes, then a flat thing and then the
reference diode standing on three wires. The broken wire of the diode is
the one next to the edge of the board.
Ross
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Nick Gaglia <ngaglia(at)calpine.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: |
Bob
I am trying to finalize my all electric RV8 with dual electronic ignition
and no mags. Using Z-13, Z-30 and Z-14, I have redrawn just the DC positive
side, showing no grounds or control circuits. Of course the system would
have all this I was just trying to understand the core meat of the different
approaches. I also am choosing to use the SD8 with 40Amp B&C and not the
20Amp B&C.
Simplified:
1) Z-13
2) Z-14 with SD8
3) my composite
However after looking at just the basics of Z-14 maybe this would be the
better approach.
Thanks
Nick
RV8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problem 11/03/03 |
>. . . problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder
> The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field
> with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder.
> After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is
> cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal
> normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the
> controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport
> without having to cycle power on the unit.
Mark,
Could the ground controllers be saying "not recieving Mode C" vs
"not receiving the transponder"??? If its ModeC, then I think I
have an idea what may be going on.
Most modern solid state altitude encoders put the pressure
sensor in a heated oven. The warm up time for the oven is
several minutes, during which time the output code from the
encoder it forced to a Grey code value which does not corespond
to a "valid" altitude.
Older transponders like Kings, Narcos, Cessna ARC didn't care
that the code was invalid, and went ahead and tried to send it
anyway, and it was up to the radar system to blank the altitude
readout on the Controller's scope. Could the Microair be
checking the code from the encoder, and suppressing the reply
for as long as it take the oven to warm up?
I learned about this the hard way. When I first put an old
mechanical TransCal altitude encoder (Blind Altimeter) in my
Skylane, I looked at the transponder pinout, and noticed that it
provided a switched power output pin which has +14V on it only
when the Transponder Mode switch is in the Mode C position, and
was open at other positions.
I wired this pin to the Power Input of the Transcal encoder.
The transcal was unpowered until the Mode switch was turned to
Mode C. Everything worked fine for the next 10 years. Then I
replaced the TransCal unit with one of the modern solid-state
encoders, which nominally was a direct plug-in replacement.
Then I was getting complaints from the tower/departure
controllers that my Mode C wasn't working, and then about five
to seven miniutes after takeoff, they would tell me that they
were receiving Mode C. Eventually the light bulb went off, and I
wired the solid state encoder directly to the avionics bus
(through a 2A breaker).
Now, the solid state encoder comes on and begins warming up
right after engine start, is on during taxi and runup. By the
time tower clears me for take off, and I reach up to switch the
transponer to Mode C, the encoder is already warmed up and ready
to go. Before I rewired it, the encoder would sit there
unpowered during taxi and runup, and the warm-up period didn't
even start until I rotated the transponer switch.
Mike M (one czech to another)
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
> >
> > Take a peek at http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp//MVC-014F.JPG
> > and describe for me which part has the broken lead.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>The broken lead is on the lower right of the picture, the fourth component
>from the right. There are two diodes, then a flat thing and then the
>reference diode standing on three wires. The broken wire of the diode is
>the one next to the edge of the board.
>
>Ross
Okay, that sets operating level for low voltage warning. If
that component were broken, you would probably have a flashing
lv warning light that never shuts off. So, if you're having trouble
with readings of either voltage or alternator load, there must be
an additional problem at work.
When you were looking for a loadmeter reading, I presume the
engine was running, the voltmeter reads somewhere above 13.5
volts and the LV warning light should have been dark.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
>
>This is a bummer. I am not using the low voltage warning feature. It has
>to be the board since all the wiring checks out.
Hmmmm . . . okay, replacing the broken diode will not fix
anything for you.
>I have all the wires into the gauge as per your instructions. Could I
>switch the loadmeter and voltmeter wires and see if the voltage would read
>on the loadmeter side of the gauge or would this screw things up?
They are not interchangeable instruments.
See other post of a few seconds ago. . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
> When you were looking for a loadmeter reading, I presume the
> engine was running, the voltmeter reads somewhere above 13.5
> volts and the LV warning light should have been dark.
>
> Bob . . .
The engine was running, the voltage was reading above 13.5, the loadmeter
didn't move and I don't have the low voltage light hooked up.
Ross
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Copper strap vs. cable for short runs |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Try this. It worked very well for a friend and we are going to use it for
our short, fat interconnects.
Cheers,
John
"http://www.conrardyco.com/buss.html
I wanted to show people on the list this product. It is a coated flexible
buss bar material. I use it for large power contactors 400 amps +. It is
much easier than using wire or bending copper. You cut it to the length you
need and drill the hole size that you need. You do not have to use lugs.
there part # 505053 is good for a 154 amps.
Contact: Erico tel 800-497-4304. I used it to make my contactor panel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: |
>
>Bob
>
>I am trying to finalize my all electric RV8 with dual electronic ignition
>and no mags. Using Z-13, Z-30 and Z-14, I have redrawn just the DC positive
>side, showing no grounds or control circuits. Of course the system would
>have all this I was just trying to understand the core meat of the different
>approaches. I also am choosing to use the SD8 with 40Amp B&C and not the
>20Amp B&C.
>
> Simplified:
> 1) Z-13
> 2) Z-14 with SD8
> 3) my composite
>
>However after looking at just the basics of Z-14 maybe this would be the
>better approach.
If this were my airplane, I'd go Figure Z-13 with a small
aux battery for the #2 ignition system. The aux battery
is switched to the main battery after engine is started.
You can use a small, S704-1 style relay for this function.
If you have a failure of the main alternator, the S704 doesn't
use a substantial portion of the SD-8 output so the batteries
can stay tied together. Only if you loose both alternators would
you disconnect the aux battery from the main battery and shut
the ignition system that runs from main battery off. This will
be simpler, lighter, less expensive and still cover MULTIPLE
failure levels.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
> >
> > When you were looking for a loadmeter reading, I presume the
> > engine was running, the voltmeter reads somewhere above 13.5
> > volts and the LV warning light should have been dark.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>The engine was running, the voltage was reading above 13.5, the loadmeter
>didn't move and I don't have the low voltage light hooked up.
Hmmmm . . .maybe the best thing to do is return both the board
and the instrument to me for checkout and repairs as needed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
> Hmmmm . . .maybe the best thing to do is return both the board
> and the instrument to me for checkout and repairs as needed.
>
> Bob . . .
I will send them this weekend. Should I use the address on your website?
Ross
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Is this a system that uses a shunt? Is it possible to detect a
useful value from the output of the system with a DVM? I imagine
that the output from the shunt is probably 50mV peak, and the
output from the loadmeter circui will have been scaled up to
the display's input voltage. Can you rig up a little voltage
divider circuit to stimulate the input to the meter - check that
with your DVM before connecting to the meter.
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
>>
>> Hmmmm . . .maybe the best thing to do is return both the board and
>> the instrument to me for checkout and repairs as needed.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
> I will send them this weekend. Should I use the address on your
> website?
>
> Ross
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter Troubleshooting |
>
> >
> > Hmmmm . . .maybe the best thing to do is return both the board
> > and the instrument to me for checkout and repairs as needed.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>I will send them this weekend. Should I use the address on your website?\
yes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Copper strap vs. cable for short runs |
>
>
>Try this. It worked very well for a friend and we are going to use it for
>our short, fat interconnects.
>
>Cheers,
>
>John
>
>"http://www.conrardyco.com/buss.html
>
>I wanted to show people on the list this product. It is a coated flexible
>buss bar material. I use it for large power contactors 400 amps +. It is
>much easier than using wire or bending copper. You cut it to the length you
>need and drill the hole size that you need. You do not have to use lugs.
>there part # 505053 is good for a 154 amps.
>
>Contact: Erico tel 800-497-4304. I used it to make my contactor panel.
This stuff is okay but in my opinion, overkill. Brass
sheet from the hobby shop is easy to find and reasonably
priced. K&S Metals are carried by a half dozen hardware
and hobby stores within three miles of my house. Look
for this display.
http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/metal_center.asp
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Guys,
Alan got the following e-mail back from Microair today in response to the transponder
problem that I described yesterday to the List:
"We are sorry you are having trouble with your transponder. We have found a snag
with our transponder, which is due to overloading in the face of multiple radars.
In areas of high radar activity, the rear microprocessor goes into a dither
mode and wont answer to anything. We have developed a fix for this, which
we are presently flight testing with excellent results, however it will not be
available for several weeks."
If anyone experience similar symptoms with their installation you may want to contact
Microair about sending it back for the fix. I plan to send mine back even
before I'm flying to avoid having to fly with no transponder later on while
it's being fixed.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
Bob, et.al.,
I just finished wiring my SD-8 alternator with its accompanying
regulator and S704-1 Contactor. Haven't run the engine yet, so haven't
checked out the alternator. But turning on the standby alternator switch
pops the standby alternator circuit breaker - and I cannot figure out why.
My double checked rigging is identical to Z-13 except I installed a
diode as shown on the B&C site for the S704-1 contactor.
--Since the diode isn't shown on Z-13, was adding it a mistake?
--The diode and the overvoltage module are both wired across the
contactor's primary terminals. I am pretty sure I wired the diode
correctly - but will wiring it backward cause the circuit breaker to
pop?
Can anyone offer any solutions?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Roy" <Savannah174(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problem 11/03/03 |
Mike, you might have hit it right on as I was just reading my ops manual for thr
T-2000 and in the FAQ's it specically addresses that exact problem that you
stated as well as possibly Marks, Cheers
Roger J. Roy
----- Original Message -----
From: MikeM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 1:40 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problem 11/03/03
>. . . problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder
> The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field
> with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the
transponder.
> After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is
> cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the
signal
> normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the
> controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered
airport
> without having to cycle power on the unit.
Mark,
Could the ground controllers be saying "not recieving Mode C" vs
"not receiving the transponder"??? If its ModeC, then I think I
have an idea what may be going on.
Most modern solid state altitude encoders put the pressure
sensor in a heated oven. The warm up time for the oven is
several minutes, during which time the output code from the
encoder it forced to a Grey code value which does not corespond
to a "valid" altitude.
Older transponders like Kings, Narcos, Cessna ARC didn't care
that the code was invalid, and went ahead and tried to send it
anyway, and it was up to the radar system to blank the altitude
readout on the Controller's scope. Could the Microair be
checking the code from the encoder, and suppressing the reply
for as long as it take the oven to warm up?
I learned about this the hard way. When I first put an old
mechanical TransCal altitude encoder (Blind Altimeter) in my
Skylane, I looked at the transponder pinout, and noticed that it
provided a switched power output pin which has +14V on it only
when the Transponder Mode switch is in the Mode C position, and
was open at other positions.
I wired this pin to the Power Input of the Transcal encoder.
The transcal was unpowered until the Mode switch was turned to
Mode C. Everything worked fine for the next 10 years. Then I
replaced the TransCal unit with one of the modern solid-state
encoders, which nominally was a direct plug-in replacement.
Then I was getting complaints from the tower/departure
controllers that my Mode C wasn't working, and then about five
to seven miniutes after takeoff, they would tell me that they
were receiving Mode C. Eventually the light bulb went off, and I
wired the solid state encoder directly to the avionics bus
(through a 2A breaker).
Now, the solid state encoder comes on and begins warming up
right after engine start, is on during taxi and runup. By the
time tower clears me for take off, and I reach up to switch the
transponer to Mode C, the encoder is already warmed up and ready
to go. Before I rewired it, the encoder would sit there
unpowered during taxi and runup, and the warm-up period didn't
even start until I rotated the transponer switch.
Mike M (one czech to another)
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Dual Battery System With Standby Battery |
Bob:
There is no perceived shortcoming for the wiring described in your book.
Both Bernie & I have copies of your book. We both think that your book is great.
Bernie's RV6A is wired almost identical to figure Z11.
But for his RV9A, with the rotary, his question is about diagnosing the ampere
hour capacity of an auxiliary RG battery before each flight.
The question being:
If his RV9A's voltmeter shows that his auxiliary RG battery is at rated voltage.
Will this guarantee that the battery will deliver its rated ampere hour capacity?
Assume that the battery is no more than one year old.
Gabe A Ferrer
Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night Phone: 561 622 0960
Fax: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | List Fund Raiser - Wow, Have You Seen The Free Gifts? |
Dear Listers,
The List Fund Raiser is going well so far this year and I wanted to say
"Thank You" to everyone that has made a Contribution already this year!
Though the generous support of Andy Gold and the Builders Bookstore (
http://www.buildersbooks.com ), I'm able to offer some truly awesome gifts
with qualifying Contributions this year. There's quite a line up and a
rather diverse set of options - certainly something for every taste and
personality. Here's a list of this year's fine options:
* List Archive CD
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Please support your Email List Community AND pick up a really slick Gift at
the same time! The SSL Secure Contribution web site can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Once again, I would like to thank everyone that has so generously supported
the continued operation and upgrade of the Lists Services here on the
Matronics servers!!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cary rhodes <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com> |
gentlemen
I am attempting to input an automotive cd player into
the flightcom 403 intercom.
I have a couple wires marked as music input on the 403
But I connected them to the left and right speaker
output of the cd player and its not right.
The cd will play thru the system but I have no volume
and the music is not clear.
Should I be looking for a different connection from
the cd player rather than the speaker output.
Or any other comments
All appreciated
cary rhodes
__________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | com antenna wire routing |
Bob
I have a spot where I have to cross over a main power cable with a com
antenna cable. Will this cause a problem?
Thanks
Ron Raby
N829R
========================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: com antenna wire routing |
>
>Bob
>
>I have a spot where I have to cross over a main power cable with a com
>antenna cable. Will this cause a problem?
No.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Battery System With Standby Battery |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>There is no perceived shortcoming for the wiring described in your book.
>
>Both Bernie & I have copies of your book. We both think that your book is
>great.
>
>Bernie's RV6A is wired almost identical to figure Z11.
>
>But for his RV9A, with the rotary, his question is about diagnosing the
>ampere hour capacity of an auxiliary RG battery before each flight.
>The question being:
>
>If his RV9A's voltmeter shows that his auxiliary RG battery is at rated
>voltage. Will this guarantee that the battery will deliver its rated
>ampere hour capacity?
No, there is no practical instrumentation you can
put on the panel that will give you a measure
of battery capacity.
>Assume that the battery is no more than one year old.
Time in service is a VERY rough gage of capacity. Unless
a battery has suffered severe abuse (run down and stored dead)
it can be counted on to have a substantial portion of the capacity
it had when installed new.
The only measure of capacity is to conduct an actual
measurement of stored energy. A dime-store hardware
test fixture is described in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf
The easiest thing to do is buy cheap and replace often
and you don't have to worry about it.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_thd.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 problem |
>
>
>Bob, et.al.,
>
>I just finished wiring my SD-8 alternator with its accompanying
>regulator and S704-1 Contactor. Haven't run the engine yet, so haven't
>checked out the alternator. But turning on the standby alternator switch
>pops the standby alternator circuit breaker - and I cannot figure out why.
>
>My double checked rigging is identical to Z-13 except I installed a
>diode as shown on the B&C site for the S704-1 contactor.
>
>--Since the diode isn't shown on Z-13, was adding it a mistake?
>
>--The diode and the overvoltage module are both wired across the
>contactor's primary terminals. I am pretty sure I wired the diode
>correctly - but will wiring it backward cause the circuit breaker to
>pop?
>
>Can anyone offer any solutions?
Try turning the Aux Alternator switch ON before turning
the Battery Master switch ON and see if it pops. Wiring
it backwards shouldn't cause the crowbar module to open
the breaker but the ov module may have slipped voltage
calibration. Do you have a bench power supply that's
adjustable over a range of 12-18v?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: need source for 55 or 60 amp pullable circuit breaker |
I tried the usual places, Wicks, Aircraft Spruce, B&C, EDMO, they have 60 amp
in the regular pop out style. I would like to have all my breakers pull out
style to be able to disconnect at the bus. Can anyone help with a source for
pullable breakers 55 or 60 amp. Thank you, Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> pullable circuit breaker |
| Subject: | Re: need source for 55 or 60 amp |
pullable circuit breaker
pullable circuit breaker
>
>I tried the usual places, Wicks, Aircraft Spruce, B&C, EDMO, they have 60 amp
>in the regular pop out style. I would like to have all my breakers pull out
>style to be able to disconnect at the bus. Can anyone help with a source for
>pullable breakers 55 or 60 amp. Thank you, Skip Simpson
If you're putting this breakers on the b-lead of a 60A alternator,
it's too small. See first column of page 7 in this
document:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf
If this is a b-lead breaker, consider get it out of the cockpit
and onto the firewall as an ANL60 current limiter (fat fuse)
as offered here (about half-way down the page).
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
> I am attempting to input an automotive cd player into
> the flightcom 403 intercom.
>
> I have a couple wires marked as music input on the 403
>
> But I connected them to the left and right speaker
> output of the cd player and its not right.
>
> The cd will play thru the system but I have no volume
> and the music is not clear.
>
> Should I be looking for a different connection from
> the cd player rather than the speaker output.
If you have one, you want an AUX out, preamp out, or line out - all names for basically
the same thing, a line-level output. The speaker outputs come out of
power amplifiers designed to drive the signal into 4-ohm speaker loads. They can,
in fact, even damage the inputs to your intercom if the intercom isn't protected
against this sort of thing.
If you don't have preamp or similar outputs from your CD player, then go to a car
stereo installation shop. They sell devices designed to hook head units without
preamp outputs into aftermarket amplifiers. Basically, you hook your speaker
outputs into these things and they provide line-level outputs. They aren't
perfect - every device you add in the chain will cause some loss of signal quality
- but they do the job if that's what you need.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
Cary,
Look for an "aux out" or something similar on your CD player. Using the
speaker output will put way more power into your intercom then it was
designed for. If you have the specs for the intercom you might also check
to see what the max input voltage for music is and then check to see that
the output voltage of the aux output of the CD player doesn't exceed it.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "cary rhodes" <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: music input
>
> gentlemen>
> Should I be looking for a different connection from
> the cd player rather than the speaker output.
>
> Or any other comments
>
> All appreciated
>
> cary rhodes
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
The specs for the following PAR-36 (4.50" diam.) bulbs are:
Part no., volts, watts, c.p., rated life, beam spread in
ft
H7600, 12.8 v., 37.50 w., 60,000 cp, 300 hr., 9 x 5
H7604, 12.8 v., 50.00 w., 110,000 cp, 100 hr., 7 x 5
H7606, 12.8 v., 50.00 w., 1,000 cp, 400 hr., 80 x 30
H7610, 12.8 v., 50.00 w., 5,200 cp, 400 hr., trapezoidal
H7614, 12.8 v., 50.00 w., 2,000 cp, 50 hr., 70 x 30
H7616, 12.8 v., 50.00 w., 70,000 cp, 300 hr., 7 x 4
4509, 12.8 v., 100.00 w., 110,000 cp, 25 hr., 11 x 6
Steve
Springfield Auto Parts Co., Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Wiring Internally regulated, OV protected alternators |
....
Bob,
I had a question that might have fallen through the cracks on our most helpful
back-and-forth on wiring alternators.
If I have an OV protected Internally Regulated alternator such as I described
with "F" and "I" terminals, and since the B+ is switched at the relay and OV
protected, is there any compelling reason why I can't simply install a little
jumper from B+ to "F", and through your suggested 150-ohm 2-W resistor to "I"?
It would simplify wiring some.
I will remove the capacitors from the alternator frame to B+ since they were to
stop brush noise and you pointed out that brush noise is a non-problem.
Thanks ... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Possible leak through filter diode ? |
Hi Bob and all,
A sudden concern came to my mind.
After exchanging some messages on this list I wired a cigar lighter direct
to the main battery bus. Of course there is a fuse. I put a small filter as
per the Aeroelectric book, with a Zener diode and a capacitor across the
leads.
My question is, COULD a leak through the Zener diode drain the battery ?
Or is this leak current so small as not to be a threat ?
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Possible leak through filter diode ? |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>A sudden concern came to my mind.
>After exchanging some messages on this list I wired a cigar lighter direct
>to the main battery bus. Of course there is a fuse. I put a small filter as
>per the Aeroelectric book, with a Zener diode and a capacitor across the
>leads.
>My question is, COULD a leak through the Zener diode drain the battery ?
>Or is this leak current so small as not to be a threat ?
The zener should not conduct at any normal operating voltage and
is not a load-threat to your battery in a parked airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> protected alternators |
....
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Internally regulated, OV |
protected alternators ....
protected alternators ....
>
>Bob,
>I had a question that might have fallen through the cracks on our most helpful
>back-and-forth on wiring alternators.
>If I have an OV protected Internally Regulated alternator such as I described
>with "F" and "I" terminals, and since the B+ is switched at the relay and OV
>protected, is there any compelling reason why I can't simply install a little
>jumper from B+ to "F", and through your suggested 150-ohm 2-W resistor to "I"?
>It would simplify wiring some.
I answered that . . . I'd rather you didn't do this given that
I don't know the behavior of your particular alternator's regulator
circuit.
>I will remove the capacitors from the alternator frame to B+ since they
>were to
>stop brush noise and you pointed out that brush noise is a non-problem.
Capacitors were useful on the output terminal of GENERATORS for
reduction of brush noise but serve no purpose in this regard on
alternators.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net> |
Bob and I conversed off list and he wanted me to post to the list for some input
from the group. The following is my proposed panel. Much of it was selected
to minimize the wiring time. Wiring and everything associated has me paranoid.
I think I'd rather have a root canal. Your input is greatly appreciated.
Equipment list as follows:
Garmin 340 audio panel
Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
Garmin 106A CDI
Garmin 330S transponder
UPS SL 40 Comm
Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
Dynon EFIS
ACS2002 engine monitor
Approach systems wiring hub
EXP buss switch panel.
Some sort of CD player
Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
Fire away, Nomex on!! Thanks in advance.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
RV7 Finish kit stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BAKEROCB(at)aol.com |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie"
Bob and I conversed off list and he wanted me to post to the list for some
input
from the group. The following is my proposed panel. Much of it was selected
to minimize the wiring time. Wiring and everything associated has me
paranoid.
I think I'd rather have a root canal. Your input is greatly appreciated.
Equipment list as follows:
Garmin 340 audio panel
Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
Garmin 106A CDI
Garmin 330S transponder
UPS SL 40 Comm
Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
Dynon EFIS
ACS2002 engine monitor
Approach systems wiring hub
EXP buss switch panel.
Some sort of CD player
Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
Fire away, Nomex on!! Thanks in advance. Darwin N. Barrie>>
10/06/2003
Hello Darwin, Why not go with the more capable UPS SL 30 VHF Nav Comm?
Selectively feed the 106A CDI from either the Garmin 430 or the SL 30.
I'm with Bob on the EXP Buss. You are both overpaying and limiting yourself
on that choice.
Once you get the proper tools and materials and do a little practicing you
will find that wiring is tremendously satisfying. There is absolutely no better
way to learn and know your system than to wire it yourself.
If you really are determined to avoid as much wiring as possible hire some
one like Avionics Systems to build your panel. You will save much time and the
labor cost is acceptable compared to the quality and cost of the equipment you
have chosen.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Possible leak through filter diode ? |
>My question is, COULD a leak through the Zener diode drain the battery ?
> >Or is this leak current so small as not to be a threat ?
>
> The zener should not conduct at any normal operating voltage and
> is not a load-threat to your battery in a parked airplane.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)usjet.net> |
>
> -->
>
> Bob and I conversed off list and he wanted me to post to the
> list for some input from the group. The following is my
> proposed panel. Much of it was selected to minimize the
> wiring time. Wiring and everything associated has me
> paranoid. I think I'd rather have a root canal. Your input is
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Equipment list as follows:
>
> Garmin 340 audio panel
> Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
> Garmin 106A CDI
> Garmin 330S transponder
> UPS SL 40 Comm
> Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
> Dynon EFIS
> ACS2002 engine monitor
> Approach systems wiring hub
> EXP buss switch panel.
> Some sort of CD player
>
> Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
Darwin, it looks like you will not have much wiring, as I see you are
using the Approach Systems stuff. While there will still be many wires
to run, without their system you would be into the hundreds of wires. I
believe that the main advantage of their system is the flexibility to
modify the panel in the future without too much wiring hassle.
I too, as another poster mentioned, would not recommend the EXP buss.
Not because of anything wrong with it, I just don't like having all the
switches in a row. Group the switches logically, with IFR flight in
mind. You don't want to be studying switch labels while trying to fly.
My philosophy on switches, knobs, etc., is to design their layout so
that they (functionally) would not need to be labelled.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 397 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
Darwin, there have been a couple of "I wouldn't use the EXP Bus" comments so
here is a different perspective.
In the 6 my partner and I built, we used the EXPBUS. In the 6A I am
building, I plan to use the "Nuckolls approach".
Different airplanes with different goals.
The EXPBUS was used in the first plane in order to have a straightforward
well packaged "system in a box". It has performed just as advertised as far
as I am concerned and the switches have NOT been a problem after about 240
hours in about a year. I may hit the nav light switch vs the strobe light
when I don't look at the label but that would occur with any others.
My take ... for the most flexibility of design, use the Nuckolls approach.
if your plane/panel is straightforward and is well covered by the EXPBUS
then go for it! It works!
I was able to set it up so that Autopilot/AUX powwer feed/Clearance delivery
can be switched on without the master being on. I ran a SEPERATE switch to
power the Jeff Rose EI and put it near the start/mag switch. If you get it,
make sure and get the indicator, I think it is worth it.
DISCLAIMER!!!!!! Our plane (N996PJ ... Red/White RV6) was chosen by
ControlVision to be "on display" at their booth in OSHKOSH in order to show
our installation of the EXPBUS. This was NOT for hire, I was asked and
agreed to do it. They watched over the plane and kept it roped off. They
gave me (and my passenger) a booth pass but that was a surprised **AFTER THE
FACT**. We decided we would then come by often and explain stuff.
Now, why the Nuckolls approach in my next plane ...
In this plane, I plan all electric (EFIS), dual alternator, dual battery
etc. Just as Z-14 shows it. Simply put, I don't think there is a better
approach out there for what I need.
Summary: Evaluate *your* need and choose the one *you* feel happy (and
comfortable) with installing. Obviously this is not about cost for you. You
will regret neither and the faster you get in the air the HAPPIER you will
be.
James
p.s. I agree that you should consider including the SL30. At a MINIMUM, wire
everything up for it NOW so that if you decide to get it later, you can
slide out the SL40 and slide in the SL30. THat is what I did in wiring our
6.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alex
> Peterson
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:55 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Panel Input
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -->
> >
> > Bob and I conversed off list and he wanted me to post to the
> > list for some input from the group. The following is my
> > proposed panel. Much of it was selected to minimize the
> > wiring time. Wiring and everything associated has me
> > paranoid. I think I'd rather have a root canal. Your input is
> > greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Equipment list as follows:
> >
> > Garmin 340 audio panel
> > Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
> > Garmin 106A CDI
> > Garmin 330S transponder
> > UPS SL 40 Comm
> > Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
> > Dynon EFIS
> > ACS2002 engine monitor
> > Approach systems wiring hub
> > EXP buss switch panel.
> > Some sort of CD player
> >
> > Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
>
> Darwin, it looks like you will not have much wiring, as I see you are
> using the Approach Systems stuff. While there will still be many wires
> to run, without their system you would be into the hundreds of wires. I
> believe that the main advantage of their system is the flexibility to
> modify the panel in the future without too much wiring hassle.
>
> I too, as another poster mentioned, would not recommend the EXP buss.
> Not because of anything wrong with it, I just don't like having all the
> switches in a row. Group the switches logically, with IFR flight in
> mind. You don't want to be studying switch labels while trying to fly.
> My philosophy on switches, knobs, etc., is to design their layout so
> that they (functionally) would not need to be labelled.
>
> Alex Peterson
> Maple Grove, MN
> RV6-A N66AP 397 hours
> www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Panel Equipment |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Darwin -
Since you are going with Garmin, they require that the harnesses be done
by an avionics shop/dealer. I understand that Approach Systems does this
for you, but at a greater cost and not much more ease of installation than
other solutions. Most of the avionics dealers will do the wiring between
the avionics boxes with custom cabling. They will include any pigtails and
interconnects with other panel equipment and also power leads. All you
have to do is furnish the pinouts of items they do not sell you in their
package (eg. Tru Trak AP)and any other data they may need from the
installation manuals and it's done. Most of the quotes I've gotten range
from $500 to $850 for this. Compare this to the Approach Systems product.
However, I've seen their product and it appears to be very high quality.
Also, a lot of the avionics products are talking to each other via serial
ports (Garmin AT CNX-80-to-SL-30-to-Blue Mountain EFIS ONE, etc.) This
enhances what you can get from interconnecting boxes. I would check to see
how Approach Systems handles this.
Cheers,
John
> Bob and I conversed off list and he wanted me to post to the list for
> some
> input
> from the group. The following is my proposed panel. Much of it was
> selected
> to minimize the wiring time. Wiring and everything associated has me
> paranoid.
> I think I'd rather have a root canal. Your input is greatly appreciated.
>
> Equipment list as follows:
>
> Garmin 340 audio panel
> Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
> Garmin 106A CDI
> Garmin 330S transponder
> UPS SL 40 Comm
> Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
> Dynon EFIS
> ACS2002 engine monitor
> Approach systems wiring hub
> EXP buss switch panel.
> Some sort of CD player
>
> Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
>
> Fire away, Nomex on!! Thanks in advance. Darwin N. Barrie>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 problem |
Problem solved.
As a result of my original post, I got a message from Tim Hedding, the
engineer at B&C. He confirmed that wiring the diode backwards would
cause the CB to pop and then added that the diode was really unnecessary
for the application. Despite my contention to the contrary, the diode
was wired backwards. I removed the diode and the CB no longer pops.
Once I thought things out, a reversed diode provides a dead short in a
hot circuit. So, it should have been obvious that was the problem.
For the record, the CB popped with only the alternator switch turned on.
As the power to the SD-8 contactor comes from the Battery Bus, the
Battery Master was not a player. I do have a regulated power supply, but
wasn't using it, so the overvoltage module should not have been causing
the problem.
My thanks for your reply and for the back channel response from the B&C guys.
Charlie
-------------------------------------
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 problem
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Bob, et.al.,
> >
> >I just finished wiring my SD-8 alternator with its accompanying
> >regulator and S704-1 Contactor. Haven't run the engine yet, so haven't
> >checked out the alternator. But turning on the standby alternator switch
> >pops the standby alternator circuit breaker - and I cannot figure out
> why.
> >
> >My double checked rigging is identical to Z-13 except I installed a
> >diode as shown on the B&C site for the S704-1 contactor.
> >
> >--Since the diode isn't shown on Z-13, was adding it a mistake?
> >
> >--The diode and the overvoltage module are both wired across the
> >contactor's primary terminals. I am pretty sure I wired the diode
> >correctly - but will wiring it backward cause the circuit breaker to
> >pop?
> >
> >Can anyone offer any solutions?
>
> Try turning the Aux Alternator switch ON before turning
> the Battery Master switch ON and see if it pops. Wiring
> it backwards shouldn't cause the crowbar module to open
> the breaker but the ov module may have slipped voltage
> calibration. Do you have a bench power supply that's
> adjustable over a range of 12-18v?
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com> |
Darwin sez:
Equipment list as follows:
Garmin 340 audio panel
Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
Garmin 106A CDI
Garmin 330S transponder
UPS SL 40 Comm
Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
Dynon EFIS
ACS2002 engine monitor
Approach systems wiring hub
EXP buss switch panel.
Some sort of CD player
Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
Fire away, Nomex on!!
No fireproof clothes necessary, you're among friends here. Good stuff. I've recently
gone thru the same decision path for my RV-8. Here's my comments I send
to you with the utmost respect. They are my opinions only, not law. My mission
profile and needs may be vastly differen t from yours. Here goes:
Instead of the SL40, you may want to consider the ICOM A-200 comm for a backup.
Can be had for approx $750 rather than $1380 for the SL-40.
As to the Approach Systems Hub, I think it's a great product, but I looked at their pricing and the fact that I didn't think I was going to keep upgrading the panel (which a modular approach begs for), and the price for my panel, even with an OSH discount was in the neighborhood of $1300 just for avionics wiring, not to mention that you have to find a place to put the hub. I have contracted with Stark Avionics http://www.mindspring.com/~jts7/index.htm to pre wire my racks. Mr Stark is wiring the trays only. ONce I'm all done and ready to fly, I'll then plunk down the 10-large for the Garmin boxes. This way, my $$ isn't tied up in radios I cannot use and when I do buy, I hopefully will have the latest datacards and software revs. He charges me up front for the racks, connectors, materials, and his labor BUT when I buy the radios from him (and he has the lowest prices I have found) he credits me back the prices on the racks. After it's all said and done, his matls and labor to wire the whole stack is approx $500. I also paid him extra for a full functional check. Others who have used him have had good things to say. I also got a quote from Pacific Coast Avionics, and they were comparable to Stark, but did not credit back any tray and connector $$. If you're buying your radios at the same time, this would be a non issue. Another friend also used PCA and had great things to say about them as well. Approach looks like a stellar product too.
Exp bus: look on this list's archives and the Aeroelectric website for a rousing
discussion of this manufacturer's merits. I woudn't do it if it were my plane.
CD Player? I've recently changed on that one, I"ll not mess around with CD's when
for a few more $$ you can put a portable 40GB hard drive to store approx
500 CD's and carry it around with you. Why agonize over which CD to take along,
when you can have all the music that's important to you (or your whole collection
for that matter) with you in the car, in the plane, on the airlines, at
a friends house. Do a Google search on the word "iPod". It's made by Apple.
Just a 1/8" entertainment jack next to the headphone and mic input to my stereo
intercom, and I'll also put a power plug in place as well as an IPod docking
station in the plane. BTW, VW is shipping their Bugs with an IPod dock, that
may give you an indication of the acceptance of the device. Besides, it's
tiny compared to a CD player.
You appear to be gearing up for IFR flight. Based on that, have you a backup plan if the D-10 goes south in the clag? I'm going with the D-10 but am using the Micro EFIS-3 from PC Flight systems. http://pcflightsystems.com/ At $1200, it's less costly than a TSO'd electric AI, weighs less and draws less power. Aviation Consumer gave it rave reviews this month, including flying acro in a Decathalon. The solid state gyros did not lose lock even after 5 aileron rolls to the left followed by 5 to the right. I applaud your decision to put standard TC as well as altimeter and AS for backup.
I too thought about 2 1/4 pitot static instruments, but I do not relish flying
IFR with reference to non-TSO'd altimeter and airspeeds. If there are TSO'd little
gages out there, please let me know, I'll change my panel layout asap.
Van's panel is so close, I wish all my gages were smaller. The 3 1/8 gages look
huge when I sit in my RV. Oh well.
Good call on the Trutrack. Friends who fly IFR regularly in their 6's and 8's report
good reviews on the Trutrak stuff, and they recommend an A/P for herding
an rv in IMC in the bumps.
ON the Garmin 330? Are you going with the traffic aviodance feature? If so, I'm
jealous. Of not, why not consider the 327? You'll save $$.
In general, I too was avioding the wiring part like the plague. I quickly relaized
that there is no off the shelf wiring that will suit my plans. I plagerized
others work from their websites, etc. Then I realized that I would just have
to knuckle down and draw my own. What I did not re-draw was Bob's Z-13: All
Electric Airplane on a Budget. I made a few minor changes to switches, but
nothing that forced me into re drawing it. Went to Kinko's and had it blown
up as far as I could go. I also suggest getting the wiring drawings that come
with their pre fabbed wiring kit. They are really useful for knowing where
to put wires thru spars, etc. I think they charged me $3.00 or something. Also
buy the optional drawing for the firewall forward. That will help you decide
where to put stuff like ground blocks, heat valves, transducer mounts for your
ACS monitro. I left the planning until the last minute, but I read Bob's
book and hacked away at my simple hand drawn wiring diagrams and wire label spreadsheets
all last winter while on business trips. Now that I"m 85% done, I
look back at the project and feel a great satisfaction in my design and execution.
I also realize that I've really enjoyed the wiring process, an unexpected
response. Best advice from an RV-6 builder who did a full IFR panel like I'm
doing was, "If you think you may want it, put it in now. It's far easier to
wire up a circuit now, only to find out that you don't need it after you're flying."
I concur. Also, don't launch into wiring without a plan, even rudimentary
drawings will make it go so much easier. Every time I've tried to 'wing'
it on the fly instead of drawing a diagram, it ends up taking much longer to
install. So, keep planning, do your alternator load analyis, do a FMEA (failure
mode effects analysis) for your instrumentation and your power distribution.
Keep picking away at it, and just like riveting your wing skins, it'll be
done before you know it. This list is the best place to start. Have fun, call
me or email me d
Art Treff
RV-8 Fastback (wiring)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cary rhodes <rhodeseng(at)yahoo.com> |
darwin
I have a similar setup. I used the exp bus and the
approach systems hub also
Haven't flown yet.
The only negative to the EXP bus IMO is the number of
outputs. I had to add a couple of 'busses' on the
subpanel to have enough places to connect 12V to the
various components.
I believe I counted 25 items that needed a source for
12V.
The Approach Hub sure is easy. And Cabe in Salt Lake
City is most accomodating.
I have smoke tested most everything and no suprizes.
cary rhodes
__________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 11/6/03 12:55:26 PM Central Standard Time,
Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com writes:
Do a Google search on the word "iPod". It's made by Apple. Just a 1/8"
entertainment jack next to the headphone and mic input to my stereo intercom, and
I'll also put a power plug in place as well as an IPod docking station in the
plane. BTW, VW is shipping their Bugs with an IPod dock, that may give you an
indication of the acceptance of the device. Besides, it's tiny compared to a
CD player.
Good Afternoon Arthur,
The primary complaint (in fact, the only complaint!) I have heard about the
Ipod is that it may not work above ten thousand feet and that attempting to use
it higher than that could ruin the mechanism. Evidently, it floats or
something and gets messed up when operated at less than normal atmospheric pressure.
If you are not planning on visiting the oxygen altitudes, no sweat at all!
If you are, satellite radio is probably the way to go.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gabe A Ferrer" <ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob and all:
The range on my VOR is typically less than 30 miles (at "high altitudes"). I think
that it should be close to 100 miles.
I bought an MFJ-259B and would like to check the SWR of my VOR.
The two questions are:
1) How do you hook up the VOR's coaxial connector to the MFJ-259B?
The MFJ-259B just has two posts on it. No coax cable mating connector.
2) If the SWR is "bad" (greater than 3, I think) how can one improve it?
I have a "cat whiskers" VOR antenna mounted on the empennage under the tail.
Thanks
Gabe A Ferrer
RV6 N2GX 83 hours
South Florida
Email: ferrergm(at)bellsouth.net
Cell: 561 758 8894
Night Phone: 561 622 0960
Fax: 561 622 0960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 problem |
>
>
>Problem solved.
>
>As a result of my original post, I got a message from Tim Hedding, the
>engineer at B&C. He confirmed that wiring the diode backwards would
>cause the CB to pop and then added that the diode was really unnecessary
>for the application. Despite my contention to the contrary, the diode
>was wired backwards. I removed the diode and the CB no longer pops.
aha! my mistake. I thought we were talking about the ov module
being wired backwards.
>Once I thought things out, a reversed diode provides a dead short in a
>hot circuit. So, it should have been obvious that was the problem.
quite correct.
>For the record, the CB popped with only the alternator switch turned on.
>As the power to the SD-8 contactor comes from the Battery Bus, the
>Battery Master was not a player. I do have a regulated power supply, but
>wasn't using it, so the overvoltage module should not have been causing
>the problem.
Sure, What I was trying to explore was the possibility that relay
coil spiking during contact bounce on closure of the switch was
triggering the SCR in the ov module. In about 1% of installations
to date, we've identified this as a problem. The idea was that if
you could close the switch BEFORE the battery master was turned on,
there would be no contact bounce involving this particular part of
the system.
>My thanks for your reply and for the back channel response from the B&C guys.
No problem, pleased that it worked out. Simple-ideas prevailed
once more.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering |
Hi Bob,
I have you 2-10 switch and am going to use it to add flashers to my 2
wingtip landing lights. I would like it to be off in the down position,
flasher on in the center position, and constant on in the up position.
I have your fig 11-17 and 11-18 to see how to wire however, my switch has
only one label which looks to be a 3 in one of the corners.
What is the numbering of the other terminals ?
Thanks,
Ned
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering |
Never Mind. I see now from Fig 11-11 how the switch is configured.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: <315(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering
> Hi Bob,
>
> I have you 2-10 switch and am going to use it to add flashers to my 2
> wingtip landing lights. I would like it to be off in the down position,
> flasher on in the center position, and constant on in the up position.
>
> I have your fig 11-17 and 11-18 to see how to wire however, my switch has
> only one label which looks to be a 3 in one of the corners.
>
> What is the numbering of the other terminals ?
>
> Thanks,
> Ned
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering |
Now I am really confused. Fig 11-11 shows 3 top left with bushing keyway
positioned up. My switch has 3 bottom right with bushing keyway positioned
up??? Help
----- Original Message -----
From: <315(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering
> Never Mind. I see now from Fig 11-11 how the switch is configured.
>
> Ned
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <315(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:30 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering
>
>
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > I have you 2-10 switch and am going to use it to add flashers to my 2
> > wingtip landing lights. I would like it to be off in the down position,
> > flasher on in the center position, and constant on in the up position.
> >
> > I have your fig 11-17 and 11-18 to see how to wire however, my switch
has
> > only one label which looks to be a 3 in one of the corners.
> >
> > What is the numbering of the other terminals ?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ned
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax regulator pictures |
Hi Bob and all,
Anyone interested in photos of the innards of a Rotax rectifier/regulator ?
Regards
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax regulator pictures |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>Anyone interested in photos of the innards of a Rotax rectifier/regulator ?
>
>Regards
>
>Gilles
Sure! you can't post attachments to the list but if you send them
to me direct I'd be pleased to put them up on my server.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: S-700 2-10 Switch Numbering |
>
>Now I am really confused. Fig 11-11 shows 3 top left with bushing keyway
>positioned up. My switch has 3 bottom right with bushing keyway positioned
>up??? Help
If you bought the switch from B&C, then ignore any numbers
on the switch and go by the figure at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf
The numbers in this figure should match the numbers on our
published drawings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Poor VOR Range |
>
>
>Bob and all:
>
>The range on my VOR is typically less than 30 miles (at "high altitudes").
>I think that it should be close to 100 miles.
>
>I bought an MFJ-259B and would like to check the SWR of my VOR.
>
>The two questions are:
>
>1) How do you hook up the VOR's coaxial connector to the MFJ-259B?
You'll need an adapter or series of adapters that fit
the connectors that fit the back of your radios.
>The MFJ-259B just has two posts on it. No coax cable mating connector.
MY MFJ-259B has a top panel that looks like this
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/mfj259_top.jpg
here you see a female BNC adapter installed on the
"Antenna" connector.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/mfj259_adapter.jpg
This adapter mates the 259B with with the majority of
systems I work on. You can make a short jumper cable
from coax and appropriate connectors to do this adaption
as well.
The manual for operating the 259 can be downloaded at:
http://www.hy-gain.com/man/mfjpdf/MFJ-259B.pdf
>2) If the SWR is "bad" (greater than 3, I think) how can one improve it?
>
>I have a "cat whiskers" VOR antenna mounted on the empennage under the tail.
If it's not 3:1 or better, it's more likely that you have
broken coax connections. Do a sweep of the 108-118 vor/loc
frequency range and see what the readings are every 1.0 MHz
and report those back to the list.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Off to Watsonville . . . |
We're just about all packed for a morning launch to Watsonville
for our annual seminar in AirCrafters very nice facilities on
the Watsonville airport. There's plenty of room if anyone wants
to drop-in at the last minute. Will be off the list until
Tuesday morning, 11/11.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ipods at Altitude |
| From: | "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com> |
Old Bob,
Thanks for the heads-up on the iPod, first I"ve heard of this problem. Any idea
where your info came from about ipods not liking altitude and where I can get
more on this? I know that the device is a hard disk, and as such it has heads
that 'fly' over the disc surface at a dimension in the sub micro-inch region.
I though that disks got into trouble above 25,000', but maybe not? Any help
would be appreciated.
Art
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Gabe,
Excellent choice - bit pricey for one aircraft but super when
shared. HOWEVER it is very delicate when it comes to power source. Dont
fail to ensure that you provide the requisite voltage first, THEN turn it
on - or the smoke retainer lets go and it takes the long road back to
repair.
You don't need to 'hook it up' physically as it does its job
inductively and the manual should show this, otherwise give me a call
privately and will advise. I belive the induction accessories are with the
box.
My experience, even with oldtimer hams, is never loan it out - as
even the most careful tend to forget and putting a tenth of a watt thru will
blow its brains out. Take it to them and perform the task yourself is the
best policy.
Nevertheless you will find the ideal components and settings to mate
the antenna to the transmitter by means of the MFJ259B.
Good hunting,
Ferg VE3LVO
Europa classic mono
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Ipods at Altitude |
In a message dated 11/7/03 9:44:11 AM Central Standard Time,
Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com writes:
Thanks for the heads-up on the iPod, first I"ve heard of this problem. Any
idea where your info came from about ipods not liking altitude and where I can
get more on this? I know that the device is a hard disk, and as such it has
heads that 'fly' over the disc surface at a dimension in the sub micro-inch
region. I though that disks got into trouble above 25,000', but maybe not? Any
help would be appreciated.
Good Morning Art,
It came up on The Beech-Owners list.
I will see if I can locate the source, but I don't generally save much.
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Circuit breakers |
Howdy-
While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's that will
work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have any insights
as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these devices to our homebuilts?
Glen Matejcek
All-electric RV-8, pulling wires
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | circuit breakers |
Howdy-
While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's that will
work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have any insights
as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these devices to our homebuilts?
Glen Matejcek
All-electric RV-8, pulling wires
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: circuit breakers |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Glen,
I don't think I would use the breakers you are describing. The
ones I have seen have moving parts (lowering reliability), and
are more expensive than fuses. I especially wouldn't use any that
automatically reset. That's just asking to periodically get smoke
in the cockpit, should something in the system fail while in flight.
The only advantage I can think of is that if you use the manually
resettable style, you save the replacement cost of the fuse. But
at less $.30 each for ATC fuses, I can't see that replacement costs
are a real issue. If you design the system properly, you might
only have to put fuses in the system once in its lifetime.
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> Howdy-
>
> While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's
> that will work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have
> any insights as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these
> devices to our homebuilts?
>
>
> Glen Matejcek
> All-electric RV-8, pulling wires
> aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeM <mladejov(at)ced.utah.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Chargers |
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 Pacer15P(at)aol.com wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Read your response about chargers and snake oil and agree with your comments.
> I would appreciate your help with my questions.
Hi Dick,
hope you dont mind if I also forward my reply back to the list.
> What charger, amp size, etc., would you recommend to slightly
> charge or maintain a std lead acid 35 series aircraft battery?
By "maintain", I assume you are concerned about what happens to
the typical G35 aircraft battery during times when the aircraft
is not flown regularly (say bi-weekly).
The answer is complicated. As long as the aircraft is flown
once every couple of weeks, assuming that the generating
capacity in the aircraft exceeds the current being drawn by the
instruments, avionics and lights, (so that the reserve capacity
is available for charging the battery), and that the voltage
regulator gets the battery voltage up to 14.2+ Volts for the
duration of a flight, then you dont need to do anything
involving external chargers.
If the aircraft generation capacity or regulation is suspect,
then instead of tinkering with chargers, you really should fix
the root cause (which is install enough generating capacity,
adjust the voltage regulator to produce said 14.2+ V, fly the
airplane an hour or two every two weeks, etc.)
The reason for the "every two weeks" statements above are based
on the physics of flooded-cell batteries. There are two parts to
prevent degradation of a battery which is sitting unused for
periods of weeks to months. Lets call this "battery
maintenance". Note that "maintenence" only needs to be done when
the aircraft is not regularly flown, as in the winter months.
First, you need to keep the battery from discharging itself even
after disconnecting anything that draws current, which should be
the case if you turn off your Master. Second, you need to
periodically stir the acid in battery to prevent the acid from
stratifying with the lowest specific gravity on top.
All lead acid batteries loose charge just by sitting around. at
100 deg F, a G35 will loose 10%-20% of its capacity per month.
In cold weather, the self discharge rate is much lower. So if
you want to maintain a battery near full capacity, you have to
replace the charge lost due to self discharge. It requires only
~ 0.25A to make up for the leakage.
Preventing self discharge is usually accomplished by "floating"
the battery using a voltage-limited charger, which puts out 13.5
+-0.1 V open-circuit. Most commercial automotive chargers such
as you would get at Sears or Checker are not voltage limited
accurately enough to leave them connected to a battery for more
than 24 hours!!! They are suitable for recharging a run-down
battery, but they must be manually disconnected after a few
hours.
The better models of the automotive chargers have a time clock
shutoff which means you dont have to drive back to the airport
to shut off the charger. If you have the disipline, you can
"maintain" an unused battery through the winter months by giving
it an 4-6 hour charge every 30 days or so, relying on the clock
in the charger to shut it off, otherwise you have to drive back
to airport to disconnect the charger.
One of the primary causes of loss of capacity of batteries is
sulfation of the lead plates; Sulfation happens when the battery
is allowed to sit around in a partially or totally discharged
state for long periods; sulfation is minimised by keeping the
Specific Gravity of the acid high (fully charged) see:
http://www.sierrasolar.com/design/b_leadbattery.htm
The acid in a stationary battery (not being sloshed around in a
car, boat, motorhome, airplane) will stratify, meaning that the
Specific gravity at the top of the battery will be much less
that at the bottom. Due to low SG at the top, the top parts of
the plates will sulfate first, reducing the capacity and cold
cranking amperage of the battery.
The solution to stratification is to mechanically stir the acid,
which happens normally if you take your battery for a ride in
the car, or for a flight in the airplane. However, if the
airplane/car is parked for six months, what then?
A good substitute for mechanical agitation is to periodically
(once every two weeks or so) connect the battery to a charger
whose voltage is set to 14.4+ V for a few hours. In the industry
this is sometimes called "equalization", but the primary benefit
comes from charging the battery hard enough to evolve gas
(hydrogen at one plate, oxygen at the other). The bubbles rise
through the acid, stirring it as they go, mixing the weaker acid
with the stronger.
So, for total automatic unattended maintenance of batteries, the
charger has to float at 13.5V continuously, and every two weeks
or so, it needs to bump up the voltage to about 14.4V while
delivering a few amps for a few hours, and then revert back to
the float mode. If the aircraft is flown regularly, then you
dont have to bother with equalization.
> Is it feasible to leave the master switch "on" to activate the
> solenoid and charge/maintain the battery thru the cigar
> lighter circuit?
> Do you think this might create any unforeseen
> problems such as overheating the solenoid if left unattended
> for several days at a time etc. Or is this just a plain bad
> idea?
Its just a bad idea. Overheating of the solenoid shouldn't be a
problem, because the solenoid is rated for it. However, your
charger has to deliver approximately 1.5A to the coil in the
solenoid, plus whatever unswitched loads there are in the aircraft (like
the fuel gauges)
Suppose someone unplugs your charger? Now the solenoid/gauges
will kill your battery. Its not hard to wire in a fused
connector which will allow direct access to the battery with the
master off.
>Is it possible to overcharge a battery with today's low
> amp chargers?
Yes.
You have to buy a charger specifically made for "float
charging", like the BatteryTender
http://www.batterytender.com/
If in doubt, connect your charger to a battery for 6 to 12
hours. Use an accurate digital voltmeter to measure the voltage
between the battery terminals with the charger still charging.
If the measured battery voltage after a few hours exceeds 13.6V,
the charger is not suitable for long term float charging.
In summary, if all you own is the typical Sears 10A charger with
the time clock, then while the aircraft/motor home/boat is not
being used, hook the charger to the battery with the time clock
set to 6 hours. Go back and do it each month. That is the best
you can do to prevent the battery from loosing capacity while
inactive. During the six hours, the charger will put back the
self discharge, and then it will bubble the battery just enough
to stir the acid. This regemin is way better than just letting
the battery sit idle for six months.
MikeM (Batteries r us)
Pacer '00Z
Skylane '1MM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Circuit breakers |
The only problem I found was that they are only available in 10,20,30
and 40 amp from BUSSMAN. Not the 1.5, 2, 5, 7 I needed for the panel
etc.
Regards,
David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen
Matejcek
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit breakers
Howdy-
While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's
that will work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have
any insights as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these
devices to our homebuilts?
Glen Matejcek
All-electric RV-8, pulling wires
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
=
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | royt.or(at)netzero.com |
Darwin,
The panel in my simple Zenair Zodiac, N601RT, is similar to what you have planned.
I have included my equipment differences between your plan and my actual panel
in parenthesis
Equipment list as follows (N601RT differences):
Garmin 340 audio panel
Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
Garmin 106A CDI
Garmin 330S transponder (N601RT Garmin 327)
UPS SL 40 Comm (N601RT - Icom A23, not panel mounted wired to comm2)
Trutrak 2 axis AP (N601RT - Digitrak)
Dynon EFIS (N601RT uEncoder, Electric DG, AH, TC, 3 1/2 Airspeed)
ACS2002 engine monitor (N601RT Grand Rapids EIS with fuel flow & Volt/Load meter
from Lectric Bob)
Approach systems wiring hub (N601RT panel built by Pacific Coast Avionics)
EXP buss switch panel. (Acres of breakers, and switch breakers)
Some sort of CD player (Portable CD/MP3 player, less than $50)
Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B. (N601RT 2.25 altimeter)
Ive added a 1 diameter clock from riderwearhouse (motorcycle goodies supplier). You could argue that the GPS has clock with seconds, but I prefer to have the analog display. See http://www.aerostich.com/riderwearhouse.store/3f94660209afda40271dd1f0ec070680/Offer/AddProduct/9027
I have independently powered backup GPS and comm provided with a GPS295 and Icom
A23. Both of these have their own internal batteries and are powered from the
plane under normal operation. The Garmin GPS295 is mounted on top of the glare
shield, with a permanently mounted antenna AND wired to the Garmin 430. When
I enter a flight plan in the 430, the flight plan is automatically loaded into
the GPS295.
Changes Id make plan to make are adding a dedicated antenna for the Icom A23 and
making the A23 comm1 in the audio panel. Comm1 in the audio panel is significant
because in the event of loss of power to the audio panel, comm1 is automatically
connected to the headset.
The uEncoder includes the compass module option and automatically provides air
data information, including magnetic heading to the Garmin 430.
The Rotax 912ULS in my plane has the standard 18A alternator and an optional 40A
ND alternator driven by belt from the front of the engine. Each alternator has
Bobs OV protections. Im using a single 18AH RG battery.
Regards,
Roy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Current Limiter Confusion |
I am building a Berkut (a canard pusher) and have both a B&C primary
60-amp and backup 20-amp alternators. I am using the two alt, one battery
Z-12 design exactly as stated.
I recently ordered two alternator fuse (current limiter) assembles - 1
60-amp and one 40-amp from B&C (they don't sell a 20amp version). I just
read the update that mentioned that the minimum fuse for the 60amp
alternator should be 80-amp rated, and I also assume that this goes for
the 20-amp alt too.
So, my question is three fold - are the B&C fuses I have (60, 40) adequate
for the alternators I am installing? Do I need to exchange the 60-amp fuse
for an 80-amp version? Is the 40amp fuse too big for the smaller
alternator?
B&C mentioned that the fuses they sell can handle up to 80% rated current
for a short time, but the specifics are a little vague.
Thanks for your help! Love the book! More information on my web site if
you care to take a look.
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
www.berkut13.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Split master switch |
Building an RV7A electrical system utilizing AEC's Z-13 design. The bible
notes there is not a need for a Cessna split type master anymore, & Z-13
shows a dual pole single throw switch in its place. In addition, one of
B&C's schematics on their website contains the note: "IMPORTANT -BATTERY
CONTACTOR AND ALTERNATOR SHOULD COME ON AND OFF TOGETHER". During a main
alt failure, isn't there a need to be able to turn on the battery contactor
(while leaving the failed alt field switch off) to activate the main bus for
flaps, landing lights, etc? To further complicate the issue, the below
thread is now running on the matronics RV list where a guy is blowing his
alt field fuse unless he leaves the alt field switch off during start. Can
anyone educate me in this area?
> Just recently my alternator has been acting up.
> Problem: I have vans 35 amp alternator and a cessna style master switch. I
have been flying my RV with setup for 155 hours before the problem occurred.
> With both switches of the master on, I engage the starter and the plane
starts, the alt. field fuse blows. If I turn the alt. switch off and start
the plane then turn the alt. switch of the master on, everything is ok.
> What is causing my fuse to blow?
> Thanks
> John Danielson
> Hi John,
I don't know what is causing the fuse to blow, but if you have the Cessna
Split Master switch I read in Light Plane Maintenance that it is preferable
to start the engine with the Alternator Field "OFF" then once the engine
starts turn the Alternator Field "ON". The reason for this was that it takes
2 amps off the battery power capacity to provide the field with a charge.
This power is not used to start the engine and it does not contribute to
charging the battery until the engine is turning faster. In my -8 I have the
split switch and I start it with the battery only and then switch on the
Alternator Field. This also allows me to check the battery voltage and
verify that the Alternator kicks in by watching the Volts gauge. So what I'm
saying is that I believe it is perfectly acceptable to start with the Alt
Field OFF then turn it on when the engines running.
Good Luck- I would definitely find the cause of the fuse tripping though.
Ed Perry
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ipods at Altitude |
>
>In a message dated 11/7/03 9:44:11 AM Central Standard Time,
>Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com writes:
>Thanks for the heads-up on the iPod, first I"ve heard of this problem. Any
>idea where your info came from about ipods not liking altitude and where I can
>get more on this? I know that the device is a hard disk, and as such it has
>heads that 'fly' over the disc surface at a dimension in the sub micro-inch
>region. I though that disks got into trouble above 25,000', but
>maybe not? Any
>help would be appreciated.
>Good Morning Art,
>
>It came up on The Beech-Owners list.
>
>I will see if I can locate the source, but I don't generally save much.
>
>Old Bob
There has been a bit about this subject on Apple's iPod discussion
boards, and other places on the web:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?128@165.XeLNaCivl2a.6@.599a1c70
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@165.XeLNaCivl2a.10@.599be263/0
http://www.rds.com/doug/weblogs/2003/10/31.html
http://www.macusers.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1006
http://www.ipodlounge.com/forums/archive/topic/1140-1.html
http://gallery.ipodlounge.com/source/ipods_world1399.php
Looks like you might be OK up to 13,000 ft or so, but there are no guarantees.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alex Balic <alex157(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | fuse panel orientation |
I am thinking of placing my blade type fuse panels on a hinged board that
would drop down from under the instrument panel for access- this means that
when it is in the usual stowed position, the fuses will be facing down- I
know that they fit in the holders firmly, and it would be unlikely that the
vibration and force of gravity would cause any of them to fall out- but I
wanted some input from anyone else that has mounted this way or has tested
this configuration......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neville Kilford" <nkilford(at)etravel.org> |
| Subject: | Re: fuse panel orientation |
Alex,
I had ATC type fuses mounted as you describe in a car for more than 100,000
miles over three years and none of them dropped out or worked loose.
Cheers
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Balic" <alex157(at)direcway.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuse panel orientation
>
> I am thinking of placing my blade type fuse panels on a hinged board that
> would drop down from under the instrument panel for access- this means that
> when it is in the usual stowed position, the fuses will be facing down- I
> know that they fit in the holders firmly, and it would be unlikely that the
> vibration and force of gravity would cause any of them to fall out- but I
> wanted some input from anyone else that has mounted this way or has tested
> this configuration......
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: fuse panel orientation |
In a message dated 11/9/03 2:37:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
alex157(at)direcway.com writes:
<< am thinking of placing my blade type fuse panels on a hinged board that
would drop down from under the instrument panel for access- this means that
when it is in the usual stowed position, the fuses will be facing down- >>
Not sure what you are building but in my -6 slider I hinged the fuse panel to
the subpanel. In the stowed position the fuses are upright and when the
panel is down they face aft for service, but they are about 7 inches farther
forward than if the fuse panel was hinged to the instrument panel itself. IMO
this
seemed to be a good trade off vs having the fuses hanging down.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, firewall forward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
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Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
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http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | iPOD altitude worries |
"There has been a bit about this subject on Apple's iPod discussion
boards, and other places on the web:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?128@165.XeLNaCivl2a.6@.599a1c70
http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?14@165.XeLNaCivl2a.10@.599be263/0
http://www.rds.com/doug/weblogs/2003/10/31.html
http://www.macusers.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1006
http://www.ipodlounge.com/forums/archive/topic/1140-1.html
http://gallery.ipodlounge.com/source/ipods_world1399.php
Looks like you might be OK up to 13,000 ft or so, but there are no
guarantees."
Cheers,
I haven't checked all references for content, but note that some
know the airliners and some corporate aircraft are pressurized. As a guide
for those not so familiar, you can count on most airliners to be pressurized
to about 8psi which in general produces a cabin altitude of about 8500 feet.
Those going to trek to Macchu Picchu should note that they are
at "mountain altitude" while riding airliners to Peru......
Ferg
Europa A064 mono
PS: don't forget to pitch in to Matronics for this marvellous
service.........
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | ARC RT-459A Transponder tray needed |
A friend of mine is building a Thorp T-211 and has picked up an ARC
RT-459A transponder cheap, (that means free). Unfortunately, it did not
include a tray. If anyone has a tray that would work with this
transponder, and would be willing to part with it for a reasonable cost,
please contact me. Thanks.
David Swartzendruber
Wichita
dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Phillips <ripsteel(at)edge.net> |
Chris Brooks , Ed Hasch ,
Joe McKervey , John Mcmahon ,
Marty Emrath , Tommy Walker
| Subject: | Change of address |
Howdy folks- I'm moving from Earthlink to AOL
New address is: fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Thanks!
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dabusmith(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Aeroflash strobe |
List
Is there a way to trouble shoot my Aero flash strobe? I replaced the flash
tube and it worked for a day. I swapped flash tubes and they both work on the
other side. I will have to open the wing or install access panels to get to the
power supply. I just want to make sure there isn't something I should check
before opening the wing.
Thanks
Dave Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | SafetyCell Cell Phone Adapter |
I would appreciate hearing from anyone using the SafetyCell adapter for talking on a cell phone through your intercom/headset in the airplane. Specifically, would you recommend the standard or the amplified version? Also, they said you can plug the adapter into a tape recorder and record your intercom output in flight. Has anyone tried doing this with a video camcorder to see if this works. When I asked they said they had never heard of anyone actually doing this but thought that it would probably work OK. For anyone interested their web site is www.pilotsupport.com.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Remember when we used batteries? |
Here's the very near term future in fuel cell power.
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_03/pr0501.htm
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less
obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in
the
universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute
continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Boddicker <trumanst(at)netins.net> |
Bob,
I got this from Sam Hoskins. He was trying to answer a question for me and
contacted you
Here is your reply.
How about this. An ol' junker of a Dos machine with
Win3.11 will run Intellicad or AutoCADLTv1.0 and probably
a number of other freebe AutoCAD compatible programs.
You can probably put together a Dos system complete with
software cheaper than you can buy software that will
run on the Mac . . . Boeing surplus here in Wichita
is selling 133 Mhz CPU's with Win95 on them for $60.
These would make an excellent CAD machine for doing your
drawings. Check around for used/surplus computer stores
or on Ebay . . . you can do this dirt cheap.
Bob . . .
My question to you is, where can I find the software mentioned above?
I have an old lap top running Windows 3.1. All I need is the program to run
on it.
Thanks
Kevin Boddicker
Luana, Iowa
Tri Q200 N7868B
Building
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Columbia 350 electrical system |
Lancair has put the information manual for its dual-electric Columbia 350
up on its website. I put a copy of the schematic for the electrical system
at http://members.cox.net/dansweb/350_schematic.pdf (the complete manual is
at http://www.lancair.com/files/downloads/350_INFO.PDF).
Natural questions relate to how and why their architecture differs from
Bob's Z-14. I notice three main differences: 1) There is a separate
avionics bus that offers "secondary protection of delicate avionics
equipment when the engine is started); 2) there is an essential bus fed
from both the left and right buses; and 3) one of the gps/nav/coms is fed
directly from one of the batteries through a switch. Anyone have any
comments about the rationale/benefits/costs of this architecture?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boss" <bossone(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CAD Programs |
Boeing is getting to someone. I saw a PII 450 with 128 megs and a 10 GB hard
disk plus other goodies go on eBay for $35.00. I did pay $!70.00 (including
freight) for a Calcomp plotter to output drawings. I had to build aWindows
98 machine to use it TYhat is the latest operating system for which a
Calcomp plotter driver is available. a blue line machine cost $50.00 plus
the shipping. AutoCAD14... if you pay $25.00 thats too much.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boddicker" <trumanst(at)netins.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: CAD Programs
>
> Bob,
> I got this from Sam Hoskins. He was trying to answer a question for me and
> contacted you
> Here is your reply.
>
> How about this. An ol' junker of a Dos machine with
> Win3.11 will run Intellicad or AutoCADLTv1.0 and probably
> a number of other freebe AutoCAD compatible programs.
> You can probably put together a Dos system complete with
> software cheaper than you can buy software that will
> run on the Mac . . . Boeing surplus here in Wichita
> is selling 133 Mhz CPU's with Win95 on them for $60.
> These would make an excellent CAD machine for doing your
> drawings. Check around for used/surplus computer stores
> or on Ebay . . . you can do this dirt cheap.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> My question to you is, where can I find the software mentioned above?
> I have an old lap top running Windows 3.1. All I need is the program to
run
> on it.
> Thanks
>
> Kevin Boddicker
> Luana, Iowa
> Tri Q200 N7868B
> Building
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Auxiliary battery ... |
Hi all,
I prepare the wiring of my MCR SPORTSTER (ROTAX 912) according to Z16 (obviously
!). But, faithful to principle "SMALL IS BEAUTIFULL", total electric consumption
is low and the advantage of an essential bus according to Bob' spirit is
weak. All is essential ! The large-scale consumers are the flaps (10 A) and the
pitch trim (5 A). Normally, if the alternator has a problem, I would have more
autonomy of battery (8 AH) that of gasoline in the tank and might land without
flaps.
The essential instruments, but not vital, the MED 80 (http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ), altimeter TASKEM 2000 ( http://www.taskemcorp.com/pdfnew/2000_Flyer.pdf ) and the VHF in reception mode, drain less than 1 A in all. I would like to find a solution in the event of total failure of the battery. I think of a small completely independent auxiliary battery (charger at home), which could supply (with a switch) a pseudo Essential Bus supplying these three instruments. Which type of portable battery would be the best adapted to provide 800 to 900 mA during approximately 2 hours (270 Nm). Could the propulsion batteries of small-scale models (planes or boats) they be appropriate?
I am interested by your opinions and experiences.
Thank you in advance.
Michel RIAZUELO
MCR SPORTSTER in progress
Cholet FRANCE
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary battery ... |
Salut Michel,
As an MCR builder I feel compelled to jump in.
>
> I prepare the wiring of my MCR SPORTSTER (ROTAX 912) according to Z16
(obviously !). But, faithful to principle "SMALL IS BEAUTIFULL", total
electric consumption is low and the advantage of an essential bus according
to Bob' spirit is weak. All is essential ! The large-scale consumers are the
flaps (10 A) and the pitch trim (5 A). Normally, if the alternator has a
problem, I would have more autonomy of battery (8 AH) that of gasoline in
the tank and might land without flaps.
>
> The essential instruments, but not vital, the MED 80
(http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ), altimeter TASKEM 2000
( http://www.taskemcorp.com/pdfnew/2000_Flyer.pdf ) and the VHF in reception
mode, drain less than 1 A in all. I would like to find a solution in the
event of total failure of the battery. I think of a small completely
independent auxiliary battery (charger at home)
Why charge at home, when your onboard alternator can do it automatically ?
When you'll be away from base, you won't be able to charge the small backup
battery and you'll gradually loose the ability to use it. Except if you take
a small charger in your flight bag. Then were's the advantage of not
connecting it to the ship's alternator ?
An Auxilliary Battery Management Module is a really small critter, far
lighter than the transformer/charger you'll take in your bag.
> which could supply (with a switch) a pseudo Essential Bus supplying these
three instruments.
From the pilot's side, this setup will be as complicated as with an actual
e-bus : switch, etc...
> Which type of portable battery would be the best adapted to provide 800 to
900 mA during approximately 2 hours (270 Nm).
My understanding is you should not rely on more than 50% backup capacity, to
allow for battery performance decay and less than optimal charge condition.
> Could the propulsion batteries of small-scale models (planes or boats)
they be appropriate?
Certainly, except you won't be able to use it to assist engine cranking.
Just my two cents.
Cheers,
Gilles
MCR 4S with ABMM
Ship's wiring 95 % complete and smoke tested.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CAD Programs |
>
>Bob,
>I got this from Sam Hoskins. He was trying to answer a question for me and
>contacted you
>Here is your reply.
>
>How about this. An ol' junker of a Dos machine with
> Win3.11 will run Intellicad or AutoCADLTv1.0 and probably
> a number of other freebe AutoCAD compatible programs.
> You can probably put together a Dos system complete with
> software cheaper than you can buy software that will
> run on the Mac . . . Boeing surplus here in Wichita
> is selling 133 Mhz CPU's with Win95 on them for $60.
> These would make an excellent CAD machine for doing your
> drawings. Check around for used/surplus computer stores
> or on Ebay . . . you can do this dirt cheap.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>My question to you is, where can I find the software mentioned above?
>I have an old lap top running Windows 3.1. All I need is the program to run
>on it.
Sam is right. Computers with 100X the capability of my first
$2,000 (used) machine are selling at scrap-iron prices. There's
a new store open in Wichita called Computer Surplus. They buy up
industrial castoffs, refurbish the moving parts (drives) as
needed and offer a perfectly good working DOS/Windows machine
with a warranty for a tiny small fraction of the cost of a new
one.
If you purchase or download my CD offer
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
or
http://www.aeroelectric.com/CD
there are three cad programs on the CD that will open/edit/
print all the drawings on the website which by the way are also
on the CD.
My personal favorite will be the AutoCADLT1.0 which you need
to resurrect as 4 pristine install floppies by running the
program makeset.bat and putting clean floppies into your
computer as directed. Then use the floppies to install
the cad program.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | We're BAAAaaaack! |
Got in late last night from the Watsonville seminar trip.
Had a great crowd. Usually we have to boogie out at noon
on Sunday to catch flights home. This time, Sunday was
all booked so we laid over a day and went home Monday.
Got to spend three extra hours with the folks and still
had time to go down on the beach and chase seagulls and
be chased by some really spectacular waves.
Also read a good book on the trip. Basic Economics
by Thomas Sowell. You can get it off Amazon used pretty
cheap. No mathematics, just sold discussion of simple-ideas
and cause-effect in the study of scarce resources that have
alternative uses. I acquired several new tools from this
book that will be useful in my work at RAC. This should
be a required course in highschool. I recommend it.
Got several meetings today so won't be able to start on
the pile incoming List traffic until this evening.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuse panel orientation |
Alex,
I have put my fuse panel under the panel on the right side of my -6A. It
is hinged to the flange at the bottom of the panel.(I have an oversised
panel.) I've used 2 camlocs at the rear corners to secure it in the
retracted position. The fuses face downward. Thought I don't expect any
problem with interaction with the legs of the right seat person, I'll
put a cover on it, if necessary.
With the number of fuses needed, I could see no other convenient place
to locate the fuse panels.
Following the Aeroelectric rationales, I don't plan on changing fuses in
flight. So, the panel can be retracted except during maintenance. I'll
send you a photo directly since photos are filtered out by the server.
I have done functional testing but have not flown yet.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A finishing details
Alex Balic wrote:
>
>
> I am thinking of placing my blade type fuse panels on a hinged board that
> would drop down from under the instrument panel for access- this means that
> when it is in the usual stowed position, the fuses will be facing down- I
> know that they fit in the holders firmly, and it would be unlikely that the
> vibration and force of gravity would cause any of them to fall out- but I
> wanted some input from anyone else that has mounted this way or has tested
> this configuration......
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric Ruttan" <ericruttan(at)chartermi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary battery ... |
Whats wrong with using plain old D cells? Shelf life of 5 years and about 5
buck to replace. There is no more power/pound in a battery.
> The essential instruments, but not vital, the MED 80
(http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ), altimeter TASKEM 2000
( http://www.taskemcorp.com/pdfnew/2000_Flyer.pdf ) and the VHF in reception
mode, drain less than 1 A in all. I would like to find a solution in the
event of total failure of the battery. I think of a small completely
independent auxiliary battery (charger at home), which could supply (with a
switch) a pseudo Essential Bus supplying these three instruments. Which type
of portable battery would be the best adapted to provide 800 to 900 mA
during approximately 2 hours (270 Nm). Could the propulsion batteries of
small-scale models (planes or boats) they be appropriate?
>
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
>I am building the electrical system for my RV-6A following your advice and
>using fuseblocks. It occurs to me, though, adding to the fuse vs. circuit
>breaker debate, that it is easier to preflight circuit breakers than fuses.
>If, for example, I have a CB protecting my pitot heat circuit, it is pretty
>obvious if the CB is tripped, but I will have to examine much more closely
>the fuse for signs that it has blown. For all of those circuits whose
>operation is not obvious during preflight or on the ground, do I look for an
>increased current draw after switching on every individual circuit?
>
>I apologize if this subject has been covered previously, but I could not
>find any references in either your publication or the AearoElectric
>listserve.
There is nothing worth pre-flighting by inspection on either
a circuit breaker panel or fuse panel. For every failure mode
that will open a fuse or breaker and disable the system, there
are 10x to 1000x failure modes that will disable the system
and NOT open the fuse or breaker. The ONLY way to pre-flight any
electrically powered system is to OPERATE it and observe appropriate
behavior. In this case, it matters not whether you use fuses
or breakers and whether or not they are visible during preflight.
The classic checklist item "BREAKERS . . . check IN" is a waste
of time in that information gleaned from the activity is not
all inclusive. It's sorta like having a checklist item
that says, "WINGS . . . check ATTACHED"
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Circuit breakers |
>
>
>The only problem I found was that they are only available in 10,20,30
>and 40 amp from BUSSMAN. Not the 1.5, 2, 5, 7 I needed for the panel
>etc.
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen
>Matejcek
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit breakers
>
>
>
>Howdy-
>
>While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's
>that will work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have
>any insights as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these
>devices to our homebuilts?
Why would you want to use a part that is more expensive, higher parts
count and adds no level of protection greater than the simple fuse?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Aux battery...... |
>The large-scale consumers are the flaps (10 A) and the pitch trim (5 A)
Does anyone else find this excessive? These just seem like HUGE currents for
motors in little airplanes.
My Makita 14.4V Drill/Driver uses 5A while driving a big screw through a
board. Why would a pitch trim need this much current? My MAC8 pitch trim is
150mA!
10A for flaps is within the reasonable range, but 5A would do the job easily
if you aren't looking for high speed flap extension.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
| From: | "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
Hello all, Bob,
I know the circuit for wiring up an LED indicator for a fuse, but I seem
to recall seeing a photo of a commercially made fuse block with
indicators already installed next to each slot. Can anybody tell me
where I might obtain one? I can make my own, but it just seems silly
that I would have to for such a theoretically simple and useful item,
and I'd prefer something rugged and pre-molded, such as in
thermoplastic.
Please, no references to those fuses with LEDs built in. They're a neat
idea, but THAT I would just do myself and it seems silly to have the LED
be part of the disposable package. (I'm a Yankee, what can I say?)
Hey, Bob, I don't know if you still have influence over B&C's product
line but this would be a great product for them to carry.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aux battery...... |
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Eric M. Jones"
:
Envoy : mardi 11 novembre 2003 17:43
Objet : AeroElectric-List: Aux battery......
>
> >The large-scale consumers are the flaps (10 A) and the pitch trim (5 A)
>
> Does anyone else find this excessive? These just seem like HUGE currents
for
> motors in little airplanes.
>
> My Makita 14.4V Drill/Driver uses 5A while driving a big screw through a
> board. Why would a pitch trim need this much current? My MAC8 pitch trim
is
> 150mA!
>
> 10A for flaps is within the reasonable range, but 5A would do the job
easily
> if you aren't looking for high speed flap extension.
>
> Eric
Contrary to the aerodynamics of the airframe, the electrics on the MCRs are,
to say the least, sub optimal.
The pitch trim and flaps use the same type of 35 watt Bosch motor, with an
acme drive that uses LOTS of amp, makes much noise, and is not that fast
acting.
Did you know the MCR four seater flaps use FOUR (4) such motors and we had
to resort to a 15 A fuse, while the factory standard breaker is 25 A ?
If I was to start again I'd use a MAC serrvo for pitch trim, and a ball
screw actuator for the flaps.
Regards,
Gilles
MCR 4S wiring 96 % complete and smoke tested
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Good" <chrisjgood(at)lycos.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash strobe |
Dave,
I had an Aeroflash power supply failure earlier this year. Confirmed it by swapping
the strobe heads, & also by checking the output voltages per their faq:
http://www.aeroflash.com/faq.html
In my case pin 3 was at 12v instead of 150-175v.
You could also look at their trouble-shooting guide:
http://www.aeroflash.com/aftsproc.pdf
Aeroflash repaired & returned the bad p/s in less than a week - sorry I don't recall
the cost.
Regards,
Chris Good
West Bend, WI
RV-6A
--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:08:21
From: Dabusmith(at)aol.com
>
>List
>Is there a way to trouble shoot my Aero flash strobe? I replaced the flash
>tube and it worked for a day. I swapped flash tubes and they both work on the
>other side. I will have to open the wing or install access panels to get to the
>power supply. I just want to make sure there isn't something I should check
>before opening the wing.
>Thanks
>Dave Smith
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631
AOL users go here: http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;6413623;3807821;f?http://mocda1.com/1/c/563632/113422/313631/313631
This offer applies to U.S. Residents Only
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary battery ... |
Eric (both), Gilles and all others,
>>AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michel RIAZUELO"
>>Which type of portable battery would be the best adapted to provide 800 to 900
mA during >>approximately 2 hours (270 Nm). Could the propulsion batteries of
small-scale models (planes >>or boats) they be appropriate?
>AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Ruttan"
>Whats wrong with using plain old D cells? Shelf life of 5 years and about 5
>buck to replace. There is no more power/pound in a battery.
I do not know which is the general opinion, but the idea of Eric (Ruttan) is well
appropriate to me. I wish that the auxiliary battery is independent of the
electric system of the plane and on this point of view his solution is perfect.
The idea of a refillable system is the result of a lack of reflexion, because
the recourse to the auxiliary battery must be exceptional. The cost of 8 or
9 D cells is not significant compared to other cost (only for those which really
count!)
Gilles tries to involve me towards an architecture with two batteries (Z14 or Z30
I presume !). I was told that with the ROTAX 914 it is mandatory (!), but with
the 912, without battery, the life is still beautiful!
One finds D cells everywhere and in fact, to be able to surmount an electric breakdown
anywhere, it would be necessary that I install a ground power jack to
ensure the engine cranking and come back home!
Few words about the consumption of the flaps engine. I chose MCR SPORTSTER for
his brilliant aerodynamic design. I did not know that the electric design was
not same level as well as Gilles said. But I prefer that that the reverse! The
next winter I would have all the time to take again this part from zero.
Two things should be known:
=B7 The VFE is 92 Kts
=B7 Full span flaperons are moved via a mechanical mixer (endless screws
and belts notched) which consumes energy.
Regards,
Michel RIAZUELO
MCR SPORTSTER in progress
Cholet FRANCE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Sa <carlosfsa(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
I found it in JC Whitney:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10101&langId=-1&productId=202466&mediaCode=ZX&appId=500939
If the link above doesn't get you there, go to JC Whitney site and search for smart
glow fuse, or
just fuse.
Carlos
> I know the circuit for wiring up an LED indicator for a fuse, but I seem
> to recall seeing a photo of a commercially made fuse block with
> indicators already installed next to each slot. Can anybody tell me
> where I might obtain one?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Dual alternators operating at the same time |
Would it be of benefit and is it practical to have both of Z-13's
alternators producing current at the same time as in the Cirrus SR-20
design? (Alt 1 @75A produces 60% & Alt 2 @40A produces 40% per their online
manual @
http://www.cirrusdesign.com/downloads/pdf/poh/SR20%20POH%20Supplements/11934
-S10%20Dual%20Alt.pdf .)
This way you would be monitoring both alternators at all times & if either
one fails, you would immediately go to "Plan B". I guess I wonder what the
probability is that when you need the backup it doesn't work?
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> time |
| Subject: | Re: Dual alternators operating at the same |
time
time
>
>
>Would it be of benefit and is it practical to have both of Z-13's
>alternators producing current at the same time as in the Cirrus SR-20
>design? (Alt 1 @75A produces 60% & Alt 2 @40A produces 40% per their online
>manual @
>http://www.cirrusdesign.com/downloads/pdf/poh/SR20%20POH%20Supplements/11934
>-S10%20Dual%20Alt.pdf .)
>This way you would be monitoring both alternators at all times & if either
>one fails, you would immediately go to "Plan B". I guess I wonder what the
>probability is that when you need the backup it doesn't work?
Cirrus did not think though their architecture decisions
before carving them into regulatory stone. There is no
demonstrable value in "monitoring" both alternators. Likelihood
of loosing ONE modern alternator in any given tank full of
fuel is low, likelihood of loosing TWO alternators is the
inverse square of loosing one.
Running two alternators to the same bus with any notions of
having them share loads unnecessarily complicates the regulation
task which only increases likelihood of regulator failure just
to achieve a level of performance that has no demonstrable
benefit. If you really want to watch both alternators, put them
on separate busses and batteries as shown in Z-14.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Current Limiter Confusion |
I received no responses from this...so, I'm posting again.....
>
> I am building a Berkut (a canard pusher) and have both a B&C primary
> 60-amp and backup 20-amp alternators. I am using the two alt, one battery
> Z-12 design exactly as stated.
>
> I recently ordered two alternator fuse (current limiter) assembles - 1
> 60-amp and one 40-amp from B&C (they don't sell a 20amp version). I just
> read the update that mentioned that the minimum fuse for the 60amp
> alternator should be 80-amp rated, and I also assume that this goes for
> the 20-amp alt too.
>
> So, my question is three fold - are the B&C fuses I have (60, 40) adequate
> for the alternators I am installing? Do I need to exchange the 60-amp
fuse
> for an 80-amp version? Is the 40amp fuse too big for the smaller
> alternator?
>
> B&C mentioned that the fuses they sell can handle up to 80% rated current
> for a short time, but the specifics are a little vague.
>
> Thanks for your help! Love the book! More information on my web site if
> you care to take a look.
>
> James Redmon
> Berkut #013 N97TX
> www.berkut13.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
>
>
>Hello all, Bob,
>
>I know the circuit for wiring up an LED indicator for a fuse, but I seem
>to recall seeing a photo of a commercially made fuse block with
>indicators already installed next to each slot. Can anybody tell me
>where I might obtain one? I can make my own, but it just seems silly
>that I would have to for such a theoretically simple and useful item,
>and I'd prefer something rugged and pre-molded, such as in
>thermoplastic.
>
>Please, no references to those fuses with LEDs built in. They're a neat
>idea, but THAT I would just do myself and it seems silly to have the LED
>be part of the disposable package. (I'm a Yankee, what can I say?)
>
>Hey, Bob, I don't know if you still have influence over B&C's product
>line but this would be a great product for them to carry.
Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
a fuse.
If your system is fault tolerant then nothing in the
system is critical to comfortable completion of flight. So
unless you have such an abundance of $time$ that adding
LEDs to all the fuses doesn't adversely influence the
quality or expedient completion of other tasks, I'm
mystified as to how the $effort$ will add value to the
finished product.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary battery ... |
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>
>I prepare the wiring of my MCR SPORTSTER (ROTAX 912) according to Z16
>(obviously !). But, faithful to principle "SMALL IS BEAUTIFULL", total
>electric consumption is low and the advantage of an essential bus
>according to Bob' spirit is weak. All is essential!
Really? I used to enjoy flying a Piper J-3 Cub that as I recall was
fitted with
airspeed, altimeter, tachometer, oil pressure gage, oil temperature
gage, compass
and a float driven fuel quantity indicator hanging out the bottom of the
single tank on one wing. After some familiarization with the handling
qualities of the airplane, it could be handled comfortably without
reference
to any of those instruments. Are there flight qualities of your airplane
that suggest that it's harder to fly than a J-3, C-150 or any other
run-of-the-mill utility aircraft?
> The large-scale consumers are the flaps (10 A) and the pitch trim (5 A).
> Normally, if the alternator has a problem, I would have more autonomy of
> battery (8 AH) that of gasoline in the tank and might land without flaps.
Flaps draw current for only a few seconds and just before crossing
the threshold. This requires VERY LITTLE energy from the battery. Also,
trim is a very intermittent load, while both flaps and trim appear to
be horribly inefficient as evidenced by their current draws, none-the-less,
they still require very little total energy.
>The essential instruments, but not vital, the MED 80
>(http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ), altimeter TASKEM 2000
>( http://www.taskemcorp.com/pdfnew/2000_Flyer.pdf ) and the VHF in
>reception mode, drain less than 1 A in all. I would like to find a
>solution in the event of total failure of the battery.
When was the last time you heard of such a thing happening?
What kind of battery was installed and how was it maintained?
> I think of a small completely independent auxiliary battery (charger at
> home), which could supply (with a switch) a pseudo Essential Bus
> supplying these three instruments. Which type of portable battery would
> be the best adapted to provide 800 to 900 mA during approximately 2 hours
> (270 Nm). Could the propulsion batteries of small-scale models (planes
> or boats) they be appropriate?
How about a hand-held GPS like the Magellan GPS310 and
a hand-held COM/VOR radio like the Japan Radio JHP520?
These take up very little room in the flight bag and
provide alternatives not only for any possible LOSS OF POWER
to the panel mounted radios but as backup for FAILURES of
the radios . . . which is far more likely to occur
than to have a battery go bad.
If you have access to a knowledgeable pilot who owns
one of these airplanes, have him show you how easy it is
to deal with the airplane while the whole instrument panel
is covered up and no electrical systems are working.
I'm guessing that most of your concerns are based on
lack of knowledge and understanding about the airplane
and mis-placed worries about the kinds of malfunctions you
are likely to experience.
I don't believe the airplane you're building is so
likely to become the beast you imagine . . . and
that recovering from the worst it can do is easy
plan for and deal with . . . without resorting
to any special battery installations.
I fly with dual hand-held GPS as sole navigation
every time I fly. I use the panel mounted COM but
don't depend on it. Whether ANYTHING on the panel
is working or not has little bearing on my probable
outcome of flight. I would encourage you to become
equally at ease with your project . . . it's not
difficult to do.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux battery...... |
>
> >The large-scale consumers are the flaps (10 A) and the pitch trim (5 A)
>
>Does anyone else find this excessive? These just seem like HUGE currents for
>motors in little airplanes.
Yup . . . typical of even the most clever combinations of
airframe and powerplant skills seem to produce electrical
systems with totally mystifying characteristics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Current Limiter Confusion |
>
>
>I received no responses from this...so, I'm posting again.....
>
>
>
> >
> > I am building a Berkut (a canard pusher) and have both a B&C primary
> > 60-amp and backup 20-amp alternators. I am using the two alt, one battery
> > Z-12 design exactly as stated.
> >
> > I recently ordered two alternator fuse (current limiter) assembles - 1
> > 60-amp and one 40-amp from B&C (they don't sell a 20amp version). I just
> > read the update that mentioned that the minimum fuse for the 60amp
> > alternator should be 80-amp rated, and I also assume that this goes for
> > the 20-amp alt too.
> >
> > So, my question is three fold - are the B&C fuses I have (60, 40) adequate
> > for the alternators I am installing? Do I need to exchange the 60-amp
>fuse
> > for an 80-amp version? Is the 40amp fuse too big for the smaller
> > alternator?
> >
> > B&C mentioned that the fuses they sell can handle up to 80% rated current
> > for a short time, but the specifics are a little vague.
Sure what they're talking about here. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html
The ANL limiters you have purchased will be fine for
the task of b-lead protection of the 20 and 60 A alternators.
ANL limiters are MUCH more robust than fuses.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Remember when we used batteries? |
>
>Here's the very near term future in fuel cell power.
>
>http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_03/pr0501.htm
I saw some butane fueled prototypes a couple of years
ago. You could "fuel" then with the butane lighter
cans available from most hardware stores. Don't know
if that product has made it to the marketplace yet or
not.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au> |
Bob et al
Is anybody able to advise me what sort of crimping tool is suitable for
Delphi Packard Pack-Con Series III terminals and a source of same
please?
Any help would be very much appreciated thanks.
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Europa Builder in Oz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Fuseholders & Crimping Tool |
Kingsley,
The 12 ga terminals are crimped with a Packard Electric crimper p/n
12070947. The 20 - 14 ga terminals are crimped with a Packard Electric
crimper p/n 8913440. I have the latter on order. It's a "B" type crimper
and you might be able to use the crimper that B&C sells. The recommended
Packard crimper does both the wire crimp and insulation crimp at the same
time. I've already received one of the 20 position dual bus fuseholders
along with 100ea. of the different size terminals and am satisfied with the
way it is put together. It turns out that you can't buy the pieces and
assemble your own fuseholder of any size you want. Each size has to be
ordered complete with a minimum order of 24 pieces. How many people are
interested in these and in what sizes? I've gotten a request for a 12 pos
and 16 pos already.
Dave in Wichita
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimping Tool
> Bob et al
>
> Is anybody able to advise me what sort of crimping tool is suitable for
> Delphi Packard Pack-Con Series III terminals and a source of same
> please?
>
> Kingsley Hurst
> Europa Builder in Oz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | ACS switch wiring with Rotax 912S |
Does anybody know if you need to jumper terminal 1 and/or use the LR & BO terminals
with the Rotax 912S ignition system and the ACS A-510-2 switch?
Thanks.
Joa
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | DO-160 issues . . . |
>I have an Ultra model from Stratomaster It is installed in a Sonex and
>there have been 2 failures of the system that we know of. It appears that
>the spikes may be causing the system to fail. The product is made in South
>Africa and the company is suggesting that a capacitor across the power
>terminals. The other potential failure mode might be the fact that the RPM
>is being picked up off one of the leads that comes from the alternator. Any
>suggestions or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Warmest Regards
>John Davis
>Crossville, TN
>Sonex 523
It's a sad fact that many companies produce products
that are not able "to live in the real world". Some of
these products are even blessed with government holy-water.
They're accurately touted as the "latest and greatest advancements for
some fraction of aviation while at the same time, they
step backwards years, even decades in the implementation
of simple ideas that are the foundation for success in
the products they're claiming to promote!
If the manufacturer of any product suggests that an airplane's
electrical system is inherently "tainted" and
offers any sort of Band-Aid to offset the shortfall, this
only means that they've properly identified a shortcoming
in their product. Their hope is to use the right weasel-
words to convince you that YOU need to fix YOUR electrical
system if you wish to enjoy the boundless benefits for
having chosen their product.
It's your choice as a consumer to decide to (1) go the
extra mile to accommodate their short-sighted design
or (2) choose an alternative product wherein the
designers did their homework. If the manufacturer
of the product you're struggling with suggests adding
a capacitor to your electrical system, you can
give it a try. Of course, they could add the capacitor
to their accessory and save you LOTS of trouble.
>PS. I have ordered from the company and I have used a great deal of your
>information. Thank you so much for a Great WEB site.
Thank you for the kind words sir. I'm pleased that you
find the work so useful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Split master switch |
>
>
>Building an RV7A electrical system utilizing AEC's Z-13 design. The bible
>notes there is not a need for a Cessna split type master anymore, & Z-13
>shows a dual pole single throw switch in its place. In addition, one of
>B&C's schematics on their website contains the note: "IMPORTANT -BATTERY
>CONTACTOR AND ALTERNATOR SHOULD COME ON AND OFF TOGETHER".
The simple two-pole, on-off switch can be used to simultaneously
control battery master and alternator field such that the alternator
is NOT allowed to be ON when the battery is OFF.
> During a main
>alt failure, isn't there a need to be able to turn on the battery contactor
>(while leaving the failed alt field switch off) to activate the main bus for
>flaps, landing lights, etc?
Yes, if you use the simple 2-3 ON-OFF switch -AND- crowbar ov protection
there will be a breaker that can be pulled to disable the alternator
for rare instances where the alternator must be manually disabled in
flight and the more common instances where battery only ground
maintenance operations are less stressful on the battery if the breaker
is pulled.
> To further complicate the issue, the below
>thread is now running on the matronics RV list where a guy is blowing his
>alt field fuse unless he leaves the alt field switch off during start. Can
>anyone educate me in this area?
> > Just recently my alternator has been acting up.
> > Problem: I have vans 35 amp alternator and a cessna style master switch. I
>have been flying my RV with setup for 155 hours before the problem occurred.
> > With both switches of the master on, I engage the starter and the plane
>starts, the alt. field fuse blows. If I turn the alt. switch off and start
>the plane then turn the alt. switch of the master on, everything is ok.
> > What is causing my fuse to blow?
If he has a crowbar ov protection system, there should be no
fuses involved to be blown. He has neglected to follow the diagrams
where circuit protection upstream of a crowbar ov module is ALWAYS
depicted as a breaker.
> > Thanks
> > John Danielson
> > Hi John,
>I don't know what is causing the fuse to blow, but if you have the Cessna
>Split Master switch I read in Light Plane Maintenance that it is preferable
>to start the engine with the Alternator Field "OFF" then once the engine
>starts turn the Alternator Field "ON". The reason for this was that it takes
>2 amps off the battery power capacity to provide the field with a charge.
>This power is not used to start the engine and it does not contribute to
>charging the battery until the engine is turning faster.
This was conventional wisdom of 1950 but with the cranking
ability of the modern RG battery being what it is, the notion
that one's engine will start better by relieving the battery
of perhaps 2-3% of total cranking load doesn't make sense.
> In my -8 I have the
>split switch and I start it with the battery only and then switch on the
>Alternator Field. This also allows me to check the battery voltage and
>verify that the Alternator kicks in by watching the Volts gauge. So what I'm
>saying is that I believe it is perfectly acceptable to start with the Alt
>Field OFF then turn it on when the engines running.
Sure doesn't hurt and probably doesn't help either.
>Good Luck- I would definitely find the cause of the fuse tripping though.
>Ed Perry
I could go into a discussion of trouble analysis and mitigation
for you to relay to the RV-List . . . but I think it wiser to
suggest that the writer be urged to contact the manufacturer and/or
designer of a product that's giving him problems instead of throwing
the question out onto a group that specializes in other issues.
I'm presuming that he's having problems with an ov module he built
or purchased from me or B&C. The AeroElectric-List is just a
sign-up away on the same server as the RV-List. I used to
subscribe to a dozen list servers and have to sort through
200-300 pieces of e-mail a day looking for electrical/avionics
systems issues. It simply got to be too much effort and served
only the folks on lists I subscribed to. Please encourage folks
on the various airframe lists to ALSO participate on the
AeroElectric-List where their electrical systems issues are most
likely to be dealt with quickly and to the benefit of more
builders.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ACS switch wiring with Rotax 912S |
>
>
>Does anybody know if you need to jumper terminal 1 and/or use the LR & BO
>terminals with the Rotax 912S ignition system and the ACS A-510-2 switch?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Joa
Wire per Figure Z-17 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi all,
I was an attendee of Bob's seminar last weekend on wiring your aircraft, and I
just wanted to let those on the list know that if you haven't taken this seminar...sign
up ASAP. Bob is hands down the aviation wiring Guru. He imparts his
knowledge with a passion that only comes from someone who does what he does because
he loves doing it!
The cost is more than fair and you will save 3-10 times the $150 you spend by not
buying things you don't need, or having to 'start over' after you realize you
haven't done your wiring job correctly (ie: simply/easlily).
Ron Patterson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Roy's 40A alternator installation on the Rotax 912 |
>
>The Rotax 912ULS in my plane has the standard 18A alternator and an
>optional 40A ND alternator driven by belt from the front of the engine.
>Each alternator has Bobs OV protections. Im using a single 18AH RG battery.
>
>Regards,
>
>Roy
Roy, I think I knew at one time but I've lost information on your
40A alternator installation on the Rotax. Do you have pictures
you could send me on this installation. Also, is attach hardware
something you had to build or is it offered by a manufacturer?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 low voltage warning light |
Just curious why Z-13 doesn't show a low voltage warning light for the SD-8,
but on B&C's website one of their SD-8 installation drawings shows it and
another does not. After reviewing 4 year's worth of web discussion on
battery/alternator monitoring, it seems that the low voltage light is the
most important warning of a problem for the main alternator. Wouldn't this
also be the case for the backup alternator? Thank you.
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
rocker switches?
If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the best
way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
lighted)
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Autoswitching dual alternators |
I have just learned that it is not a good idea to have dual alternators
running at the same time for many reasons. How about using autoswitching
mentioned in the AEC as "...the easiest way to add a second engine driven
power source to an existing design." Since it doesn't appear to be used in
Z-12 or Z-13, can someone explain why not use it? Thank you.
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
There you go............
Jim Weir in the latest (must be DEC03) issue, tried out an AOL CD-ROM disc
as a groundplane for his GPS, on his hightech garbage-can antenna test
range, and found a barely measureable difference from carefully-fashioned
aluminum sheet.
I consider my model Europa to be high-tech since it will incorporate 3
AOL discs - one under the fuel selector handle, one under the GPS antenna
and one under the TXR stub - for now anyway.
Cheers, Ferg
Europa Mono #A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
I got mine from Electronic Technologies... www.electronictechnologies.net
etech(at)ucnsb.net and had the engraving done up in New England.
Also you can contact them through
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExperimentalAvionics/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches
>
> Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
> rocker switches?
> If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the
best
> way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
> lighted)
>
> Scott Diffenbaugh
> diff(at)foothill.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
If you go with the toggles you might consider this stuff:
http://sptpanel.com/glow_strips.htm
I installed it in my Rocket and like it a lot because it is
dimmable. Attached is a picture of my cockpit with the lights out and the
panels lit using the glow strips.
scot
>
>
>Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
>rocker switches?
>If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the best
>way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
>lighted)
>
>Scott Diffenbaugh
>diff(at)foothill.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Autoswitching dual alternators |
>
>
>I have just learned that it is not a good idea to have dual alternators
>running at the same time for many reasons. How about using autoswitching
>mentioned in the AEC as "...the easiest way to add a second engine driven
>power source to an existing design." Since it doesn't appear to be used in
>Z-12 or Z-13, can someone explain why not use it? Thank you.
You lost me . . . Z-12 IS an autoswitched design. One simply
ties both main and aux alternators to the bus and sets
the aux alternator about a volt below the main alternator.
You run both alternators ON all the time. The aux alternator
regulator sees a "too high" bus and simply relaxes. If the
main alternator fails, bus voltage sags and the aux alternator
comes alive to pick up the load.
The SB-1 regulator was specifically designed for this service
in that what WAS a "low volts" warning light HAS BEEN MODIFIED
to measure aux alternator b-lead current with a hall-effect
current sensor. When the main alternator goes down, current draw
from the aux alternator jumps up. If the current exceeds 20A,
the light flashes. When you switch off enough things to bring
the current below 20A, the light switches to steady operation.
This is the system STC'ed on many certified aircraft by B&C
and is a reasonable alternative to the major changes necessary
to implement Z-14 in a certified ship. I don't recommend
it for new design but that doesn't mean it isn't a perfectly
acceptable alternative to traditional systems flying in
virtually all certified ships. If this architecture floats
your boat then drive on . . . it's still light-years ahead
of most hardware flying today.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
They can also do very nice custom lighted legend sheets. They did mine for my
Veloctiy XL's overhead switch panel:
http://www.velocityxl.com/Electrical.htm#Chapter 13.3.4 - Switches and Circuit Protection
Brett
Quoting Scot Stambaugh :
> Stambaugh
>
> If you go with the toggles you might consider this
> stuff:
> http://sptpanel.com/glow_strips.htm
> I installed it in my Rocket and like it a lot because
> it is
> dimmable. Attached is a picture of my cockpit with
> the lights out and the
> panels lit using the glow strips.
>
> scot
>
>
> Diffenbaugh"
> >
> >
> >Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality
> engraved lighted
> >rocker switches?
> >If I change my mind and end up going with toggle
> switches, what is the best
> >way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics
> will be internally
> >lighted)
> >
> >Scott Diffenbaugh
> >diff(at)foothill.net
> >
> >
>
>
> on the
> this
> generous
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
--
Visit us at www.velocityxl.com
44VF Velocity XL/FG
I68 Cincinnati, OH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 low voltage warning light |
>
>
>Just curious why Z-13 doesn't show a low voltage warning light for the SD-8,
>but on B&C's website one of their SD-8 installation drawings shows it and
>another does not. After reviewing 4 year's worth of web discussion on
>battery/alternator monitoring, it seems that the low voltage light is the
>most important warning of a problem for the main alternator. Wouldn't this
>also be the case for the backup alternator? Thank you.
Keep in mind that the power distribution diagrams illustrate
implementation of ideas for architecture . . . they are not
intended to put either upper or lower bounds on features one
might choose to include. Figure Z-13 shows low voltage warning
in that this feature is part of the LR-3 design. If the main
alternator is down, and assuming you've done a load analysis
for aux-alternator-only operations, it's reasonable to assume
that you're not going to be overloading the SD-8 and bus voltage
will be fine. If your design includes a voltmeter, I'd run it
from the endurance bus. If you don't plan a voltmeter and would
like to add low voltage monitoring, it's certainly easy to do
with the ACE9005 LV Warning at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html
or can built it as shown at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
Just because a Z-figure does or does-not show a particular
feature doesn't mean it isn't something that should be considered
and added or deleted based on your personal understanding
and requirements for system functionality.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Hi all,
>
>I was an attendee of Bob's seminar last weekend on wiring your aircraft,
>and I just wanted to let those on the list know that if you haven't taken
>this seminar...sign up ASAP. Bob is hands down the aviation wiring Guru.
>He imparts his knowledge with a passion that only comes from someone who
>does what he does because he loves doing it!
>
>The cost is more than fair and you will save 3-10 times the $150 you spend
>by not buying things you don't need, or having to 'start over' after you
>realize you haven't done your wiring job correctly (ie: simply/easlily)
>
>Ron Patterson
Thank you for the kind words Ron. We appreciate your
participation and support both as a member of the
OBAM aircraft community and as the select group of
builders who are helping drive the art and technology
forward.
I had lunch with some suppliers to Raytheon who
had sad tales to tell about how regulatory and
systems approaches to management have multiplied the $time$
it takes to arrive at the elegant solution. This assumes that
the elegant solutions can be found . . . when you're out
of budget, you go to production irrespective of the
warts that may still exist with the design.
If there is any bright star on the horizon for general
aviation, it's glowing in the basements and garages of
builders everywhere.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 low voltage warning light |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Scott,
I have a few thoughts regarding this topic, a couple of which bring up
questions of my own. The first is that the drawings in the Z appendix
are intended as a starting place so that we may better understand how
to design and implement aircraft electrical systems. It is up to us
to decide how to apply the concepts we learn from the Aeroelectric
Connection Book (and the Z appendiz in particular) when working on our
own airplanes. For a given airplane, it is likely that none of the
circuits shown in the Z appendiz will work exactly as drawn.
My second thought is that a standard low voltage circuit won't
work in the Z-13 design. As long as at least one of the alternators
is on line, and keeping up with the demands of the system, the
respective bus voltage will remain above the low voltage threshold.
I would imagine that the circuits where a low voltage warning has
been included with the SD8 are where that is the sole alternator
in the system. Or, where the SD8 is used in a split bus architecture.
The Z-13 circuit does give a means for indicating Alternator load
on the SD8.
It is possible test the SD8 when at runup or in flight. You can
disable the main Alt, and make sure that the load meter on the SD8
gives a positive reading, indicating that it is charging. You will
have to play with bus loads to see how much its putting out.
To get a warning of a failed backup alternator, its useful to consider
what the fail modes of the SD8 are, and how they might effect overall
system performance. The 3 modes that I can think of are, that the
regulator goes into runaway mode (overvoltage), turns off (disconnect),
or shorts to ground.
If the regulator goes into runaway the crowbar module will trip, which
will quickly open the SD8's feed, disconnecting it from the main bus.
At least, I think this is how it will work... My question here is,
what happens if the overall system loads are more than the total
output of the SD8?? I wonder this because I think what will happen is
that the main Alt's regulator will sense the rising bus voltage, and
reduce the main Alt's output, keeping bus voltage stable. I guess
this is okay, because it probably won't hurt the SD8 to be max'ed out
(since its PM, its always max'ed out). Then, if you flip some
switches in the cockpit which reduce system loads below the full
output of the SD8, the bus voltage will rise high enough to trip the
crowbar module, disconnecting the SD8. Still, no warning, as the
circuit is drawn. Kind of annoying behavior because you don't know
exactly when the SD8 started misbehaving, but probably still okay.
The next fail mode is a disconnect. If the fail is an open circuit, it
may be tough to detect without shutting off the main alt. Have to think
on this one a bit.
Finally, if the SD8 shorts to ground, it will take out the fuse link
connecting it to the battery. This ends up like all of the other fail
modes... The SD8 gets disconnected from the electrical system.
All of these are fairly non-events. If you have a fresh battery, and it
was sized correctly to start with, your battery will last longer than
the fuel supply. Worst case scenario, you take off with 2 operating alts,
the little one fails early (and you don't know about it), the big one
fails shortly there after, and you run on the essential bus intil you
get where you were planning to go. The chances of dual alternator fails
is probably similar to 2 mag fails in the same flight.
One question that I have is that in examining this schematic, it looks
like both alt's regulators are tied to the same bus. I thought this was
to be avoided, as neither will have exactly the same setpoint. However,
as described above, I suspect that if the PM's output voltage is less than
the main's, it will just be along for the ride, sharing none of the load
unless the main fails. If the PM's output voltage is higher than the
main's, the main never sees more than total bus loads minus the full
rated output of the the PM. Probably still okay. Maybe the rule is that
if full bus loads are less than the rating of your biggest alt, you can
tie their outputs together. How about it Bob?
Sorry for the length....
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
>
>
> Just curious why Z-13 doesn't show a low voltage warning light for the
> SD-8, but on B&C's website one of their SD-8 installation drawings shows
> it and another does not. After reviewing 4 year's worth of web
> discussion on battery/alternator monitoring, it seems that the low
> voltage light is the most important warning of a problem for the main
> alternator. Wouldn't this also be the case for the backup alternator?
> Thank you.
>
> Scott Diffenbaugh
> diff(at)foothill.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Autoswitching dual alternators |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Thanks Bob... This message answers the questions I asked in another
message about bus sharing.
Matt-
>
>
>>
>>
>>I have just learned that it is not a good idea to have dual alternators
>> running at the same time for many reasons. How about using
>> autoswitching mentioned in the AEC as "...the easiest way to add a
>> second engine driven power source to an existing design." Since it
>> doesn't appear to be used in Z-12 or Z-13, can someone explain why not
>> use it? Thank you.
>
> You lost me . . . Z-12 IS an autoswitched design. One simply
> ties both main and aux alternators to the bus and sets
> the aux alternator about a volt below the main alternator.
> You run both alternators ON all the time. The aux alternator
> regulator sees a "too high" bus and simply relaxes. If the
> main alternator fails, bus voltage sags and the aux alternator
> comes alive to pick up the load.
>
> The SB-1 regulator was specifically designed for this service
> in that what WAS a "low volts" warning light HAS BEEN MODIFIED
> to measure aux alternator b-lead current with a hall-effect
> current sensor. When the main alternator goes down, current draw from
> the aux alternator jumps up. If the current exceeds 20A,
> the light flashes. When you switch off enough things to bring
> the current below 20A, the light switches to steady operation.
>
> This is the system STC'ed on many certified aircraft by B&C
snip
> of most hardware flying today.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 preflight check |
I wired my RV6A using Z-13. I have one of Bob's loadmeter/voltmeters that
is not operating on the loadmeter side but is working on the voltmeter side.
Doing my pre-flight tests, turning on the main alternator, the voltmeter
shows a jump from battery voltage to 14+ volts. When I shut down the main
alternator and main bus and turn on the SD-8, I get no movement above
battery voltage. Is this normal? If so, how do I check to see if the SD-8
is working in pre-flight? Some of my instruments are hooked directly to the
essential bus (no intermediate switch) so I can't turn everything off so
there is no load on the battery.
Ross Mickey
N9PT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Picture of headset jacks |
I lost my picture I printed,
A while back I saw on the list a very nice picture with descriptions of what
was what on different types of headset and mic jacks. I tried a search of
the list with no luck any body help out ?
Thanks
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Picture of headset jacks |
Jeff,
Check out the link below:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
Your Fellow builder,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Picture of headset jacks
>
>
> I lost my picture I printed,
> A while back I saw on the list a very nice picture with descriptions of
what
> was what on different types of headset and mic jacks. I tried a search of
> the list with no luck any body help out ?
>
> Thanks
> Jeff
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Voltage drop on contactors? |
>
>Comments/Questions: Voltage drop across Master Relay. I am building a F1
>Rocket. The battery is back in the tail. The kit manufacturer calls for
>the master relay back by the battery and a starter relay up in the engine
>area.On a cold day and the voltage drop across both relays could cause for
>less power to the starter. Would I be better off to put the starter relay
>back by the battery and use a smaller relay and smaller wire to the
>instrument panel? Your comments would be appriecated.
Use 2AWG wire and mount contactors in the usual places,
battery contactor right next to battery and intermittent
duty starter contactor on firewall. Voltage drop on the
wire is more significant than the contactors . . . this
is why 2AWG is recommended for all aircraft with rear
mounted battery. Of course, an RG battery is recommended
as well.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Picture of headset jacks |
That helps but the one I was thinking of was almost a sketch of a jack and I
thought it was a stereo headphone jack.
Thanks in advance
Jeff
Check out the link below:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
> Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
>
> Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> a fuse.
Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I said
I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of time,
and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of money. =)
I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts cutting
out on your third test flight that you can glance down and see your fuel
pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you DIDN'T fasten
things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded and shorted out.
You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try to put in a new fuse
- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid wasting time on trying an
engine restart, which reduces your workload somewhat. As long as you
aren't overloading the pilot with information (and you have to really
LOOK to get this bit) having more information available is often nice.
In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the weather's
like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so no plane
building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is all I can do.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Picture of headset jacks |
Might this be the one?
http://www.rvproject.com/images/jack_wiring.jpg
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Picture of headset jacks
>
> That helps but the one I was thinking of was almost a sketch of a jack and
I
> thought it was a stereo headphone jack.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Jeff
>
> Check out the link below:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: ACS switch wiring with Rotax 912S |
Bob,
Z-17 shows no wire between GRD and the panel ground block . Is the switch only
grounded by the wire shields at the ignition terminal points? Would a separate
ground wire from the switch to the ground block create a groud loop?
Alfred
>
>
>Does anybody know if you need to jumper terminal 1 and/or use the LR & BO
>terminals with the Rotax 912S ignition system and the ACS A-510-2 switch?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Joa
Wire per Figure Z-17 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary battery ... |
Bob, and all,
I think that I said silly things, or that I badly expressed myself or that I badly
understood your answer. or three at the same time....
>When was the last time you heard of such a thing happening? (battery failure)
To tell the truth, I fly from a long time on light aircraft which do not belong
to me, and I never wondered whether the battery could break down ! The truth
is that never a battery did not cause me a problem.
But on my plane that I want to keep simple and do not transform into AIRBUS, more
by refinement that by need, the simple solutions which increase safety or comfort,
interest me. It is from there that the idea of an independent power source
for the few essential instruments comes from .
I put again my question about the advantage of the essential bus in my case. The
flaps, trim, electric pump and strobe are activated on decision of the pilot.
All the other electric consumers would be those which would be connected to
the essential bus (VHF, Transpondeur, engine control and DIGITAL Altimeter)
I received the B&C OVM and I will wire according to Z-16 with the lamp announcing
that the alternator is out and telling me I have to be thrifty.
So, Essential Bus : useful or not ?
In addition to voltmeter, I want to install an ammeter. I received the B&C shunt
(20 A), but it seams not easy to find the indicator without internal shunt.
>How about a hand-held GPS like the Magellan GPS310 and
>a hand-held COM/VOR radio like the Japan Radio JHP520?
>These take up very little room in the flight bag and ................................
Yes, I plan to have the ICOM IC-A22/E witch is certified in France.
Many thanks Bob for the time you spend for us. And sorry not to have finished
the reading of "AeroElectric connection"!
Regards,
Michel.
MCR SPORTSTER in progress ...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Picture of headset jacks |
YEAP that's it
THANKS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Checkoway
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Picture of headset jacks
-->
Might this be the one?
http://www.rvproject.com/images/jack_wiring.jpg
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Picture of headset jacks
>
> That helps but the one I was thinking of was almost a sketch of a jack
> and
I
> thought it was a stereo headphone jack.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Jeff
>
> Check out the link below:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 preflight check |
I wired my RV6A using Z-13. I have one of Bob's loadmeter/voltmeters that
is not operating on the loadmeter side but is working on the voltmeter side.
Doing my pre-flight tests, turning on the main alternator, the voltmeter
shows a jump from battery voltage to 14+ volts. When I shut down the main
alternator and main bus and turn on the SD-8, I get no movement above
battery voltage. Is this normal? If so, how do I check to see if the SD-8
is working in pre-flight? Some of my instruments are hooked directly to the
essential bus (no intermediate switch) so I can't turn everything off so
there is no load on the battery.
Ross Mickey
N9PT
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Roy's 40A alternator installation on the Rotax |
912
| From: | royt.or(at)netzero.com |
Bob,
Rotax and other(s?) offer an optional belt driven 40A alternator for the 912 and
914 engine families. These kits have a propeller flange pulley added to drive
the belt for the alternator. The bracket to support the alternator mounts in
existing holes in the 912/914 family.
I received my external alternator about three years ago and Im not sure who I ordered
it from. The documentation for my optional alternator indicates the supplier
is Aircarft Sales and Parts in Vernon B.C. Canada. Ph (250) 549-1102. email
asap(at)junction.net. This kit uses an ND internally regulated alternator.
My alternator looks like the external alternator at http://www.ultralightnews.ca/rotax912/912-externalAltKit.htm and has a SRP of ~$700 and also at http://www.leadingedge-airfoils.com pn R4912. LEAF also lists Rotax PN 887-251 which I believe is the external alternator from Rotax, and is nearly $1300. A picture of the Rotax kit can be seen at the bottom of http://www.kodiakbs.com/accessories/acc4.pdf .
My Zenith CH601HDS was not designed to specifically support the external alternator
and I had two areas which needed modification. The Zenith oil cooler mount
also expected to use one of the threaded holes where the alternator mounts and
I changed the oil cooler mount as a result. Also, the cowling needed to be
trimmed to clear the alternator pulley.
Ill take pictures of my installation during the next week and send to you directly.
Regards,
Roy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | SD-8 low voltage warning light |
On preflight I check the SD-8 by switching it on and then switching the main
alternator off. If voltage remains at 13 volts or better, it is working.
If it is not working the voltage will drop to about 12.5. The SD-8 will not
charge, at least in my system, below about 1500 RPM.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 285 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Prather [mailto:mprather(at)spro.net]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 low voltage warning light
It is possible test the SD8 when at runup or in flight. You can
disable the main Alt, and make sure that the load meter on the SD8
gives a positive reading, indicating that it is charging. You will
have to play with bus loads to see how much its putting out.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Auxiliary battery ... |
>
>
>Bob, and all,
>
>
>I think that I said silly things, or that I badly expressed myself or that
>I badly understood your answer. or three at the same time....
>
>
> >When was the last time you heard of such a thing happening? (battery
> failure)
>
>
>To tell the truth, I fly from a long time on light aircraft which do not
>belong to me, and I never wondered whether the battery could break down !
>The truth is that never a battery did not cause me a problem.
>
>
>But on my plane that I want to keep simple and do not transform into
>AIRBUS, more by refinement that by need, the simple solutions which
>increase safety or comfort, interest me. It is from there that the idea of
>an independent power source for the few essential instruments comes from .
>
>I put again my question about the advantage of the essential bus in my
>case. The flaps, trim, electric pump and strobe are activated on decision
>of the pilot. All the other electric consumers would be those which would
>be connected to the essential bus (VHF, Transpondeur, engine control and
>DIGITAL Altimeter)
Lets call it the ENDURANCE bus . . . it serves two purposes:
(1) it provides a means for dependable operation of things necessary
and/or useful for comfortable continuation of flight in case of
alternator failure while (2) MINIMIZING utilization of a limited
resource - ENERGY in the battery. It's dependable because of DUAL
pathways from power source(s) to the bus and MINIMIZED CONSUMPTION
because it can bypass the battery contactor thereby eliminating
a parasitic load on the battery (battery contactor draws 0.8 to
1.0 amps). Contactor draw contributes nothing the operation of equipment
while tossing off 4x the energy it takes to operate a capable nav radio.
>I received the B&C OVM and I will wire according to Z-16 with the lamp
>announcing that the alternator is out and telling me I have to be thrifty.
Good . . .
>So, Essential Bus : useful or not ?
I think so . . .
>In addition to voltmeter, I want to install an ammeter. I received the B&C
>shunt (20 A), but it seams not easy to find the indicator without internal
>shunt.
I've tried Westach instruments and found them wanting
for quality control. Out of 30 instruments they built for
me, I had to return 4 for some kind of rework out of the
box!!!!! One instrument was returned twice and finally
trashed. This was for a sticking pointer (probably contamination
in the magnet-coil gap) that they couldn't seem to fix on
two tries.
I'm impressed with Mitchell products. I think they do
clusters for Mooney. I'm writing to them today to see if
they can offer a 0-100% reading loadmeter with a 50 millivolt
movement that would work with ANY size alternator by simply
cutting the appropriate shunt. They can do a really nice
1.5" instrument that would look like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/loadmeter.jpg
This is very similar to instruments already supplied by
Mitchell. Will let the group know what I find out.
> >How about a hand-held GPS like the Magellan GPS310 and
> >a hand-held COM/VOR radio like the Japan Radio JHP520?
> >These take up very little room in the flight bag and
> ................................
>
>
>Yes, I plan to have the ICOM IC-A22/E witch is certified in France.
>
>
>Many thanks Bob for the time you spend for us. And sorry not to have
>finished the reading of "AeroElectric connection"!
No big deal, it takes time. I read a book last weekend on
Basic Economics. Very interesting and an easy read but
it was like taking a drink from a firehose. It's something
you have to go over several times with each pass adding
new layers of understanding. It's not the cover-to-cover
read that gives you the most benefit but the 10-minutes-a-
day-every-day that will expand your grasp on the simple-ideas
that make it all work.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ACS switch wiring with Rotax 912S |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Z-17 shows no wire between GRD and the panel ground block . Is the switch
>only grounded by the wire shields at the ignition terminal points? Would a
>separate ground wire from the switch to the ground block create a groud loop?
yes. the extra wire is unnecessary and may INCREASE noise.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 preflight check |
>
>I wired my RV6A using Z-13. I have one of Bob's loadmeter/voltmeters that
>is not operating on the loadmeter side but is working on the voltmeter side.
>Doing my pre-flight tests, turning on the main alternator, the voltmeter
>shows a jump from battery voltage to 14+ volts. When I shut down the main
>alternator and main bus and turn on the SD-8, I get no movement above
>battery voltage. Is this normal? If so, how do I check to see if the SD-8
>is working in pre-flight? Some of my instruments are hooked directly to the
>essential bus (no intermediate switch) so I can't turn everything off so
>there is no load on the battery.
The SD-8 puts out rated current only at cruise RPM, it may indeed
take 2000 or more RPM to put out ANY current. Have you tried it at
elevated throttle settings? It would be sufficient to see an up-tick
in loadmeter reading at some higher throttle setting.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Autoswitching dual alternators |
Sorry, I thought the aux alternator switch on Z-12 would be normally open.
Apparently it is closed during normal operations of both alternators.
The description for Z-13 in the book indicates that the SD-8 would be
switched on in the event of a main alternator failure, so it doesn't appear
to be autoswitched. Would it make sense to autoswitch it like Z-12? One
less thing to worry about.
BTW, how does the E bus get its power in event of a battery contactor
failure in Z-12? I'm sure its there, I just don't see it. It appears to me
both alternators would go down so no power thru the diode to the E bus.
As a side question, I have been very curious as to the failure rate of
battery contactors? The book suggests you should carry spares if you use
Type I, which mine looks like.
Thank you,
Scott
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Autoswitching dual alternators
>
>
>I have just learned that it is not a good idea to have dual alternators
>running at the same time for many reasons. How about using autoswitching
>mentioned in the AEC as "...the easiest way to add a second engine driven
>power source to an existing design." Since it doesn't appear to be used in
>Z-12 or Z-13, can someone explain why not use it? Thank you.
You lost me . . . Z-12 IS an autoswitched design. One simply
ties both main and aux alternators to the bus and sets
the aux alternator about a volt below the main alternator.
You run both alternators ON all the time. The aux alternator
regulator sees a "too high" bus and simply relaxes. If the
main alternator fails, bus voltage sags and the aux alternator
comes alive to pick up the load.
The SB-1 regulator was specifically designed for this service
in that what WAS a "low volts" warning light HAS BEEN MODIFIED
to measure aux alternator b-lead current with a hall-effect
current sensor. When the main alternator goes down, current draw
from the aux alternator jumps up. If the current exceeds 20A,
the light flashes. When you switch off enough things to bring
the current below 20A, the light switches to steady operation.
This is the system STC'ed on many certified aircraft by B&C
and is a reasonable alternative to the major changes necessary
to implement Z-14 in a certified ship. I don't recommend
it for new design but that doesn't mean it isn't a perfectly
acceptable alternative to traditional systems flying in
virtually all certified ships. If this architecture floats
your boat then drive on . . . it's still light-years ahead
of most hardware flying today.
Bob . . .
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Crowbar OV protection |
Bob, Thanks for the education, but my curiosity is getting the best of me.
Following the AEC philosophy of minimizing circuit breakers, and if a
circuit breaker is required in the crowbar OV scheme, the implication is
that maybe a reset should be attempted. Are there any circumstances during
flight when one should contemplate re-setting the breaker, or should one go
directly to Plan B & collect $100?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
Brett,
Are these available in double pole and double throw models? What is the pricing
on these units?
Charlie Kuss
>
>They can also do very nice custom lighted legend sheets. They did mine for my
Veloctiy XL's overhead switch panel:
>http://www.velocityxl.com/Electrical.htm#Chapter 13.3.4 - Switches and Circuit Protection
>
>Brett
>
>Quoting Scot Stambaugh :
>
>> Stambaugh
>>
>> If you go with the toggles you might consider this
>> stuff:
>> http://sptpanel.com/glow_strips.htm
>> I installed it in my Rocket and like it a lot because
>> it is
>> dimmable. Attached is a picture of my cockpit with
>> the lights out and the
>> panels lit using the glow strips.
>>
>> scot
>>
>>
>> Diffenbaugh"
>> >
>> >
>> >Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality
>> engraved lighted
>> >rocker switches?
>> >If I change my mind and end up going with toggle
>> switches, what is the best
>> >way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics
>> will be internally
>> >lighted)
>> >
>> >Scott Diffenbaugh
>> >diff(at)foothill.net
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> on the
>> this
>> generous
>> Contributions
>> any other
>> Forums.
>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Visit us at www.velocityxl.com
>44VF Velocity XL/FG
>I68 Cincinnati, OH
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Autoswitching dual alternators |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Scott,
I put some comments below.
>
>
> Sorry, I thought the aux alternator switch on Z-12 would be normally
> open. Apparently it is closed during normal operations of both
> alternators.
>
> The description for Z-13 in the book indicates that the SD-8 would be
> switched on in the event of a main alternator failure, so it doesn't
> appear to be autoswitched. Would it make sense to autoswitch it like
> Z-12? One less thing to worry about.
I think the auto switching feature of z-12 depends on a specially
calibrated regulator. The normal SD8 regulator can be used on Z-13.
I wonder, however, what the harm would be in always leaving the SD8
powered up. I think it is generating power as long as its spinning,
unlike a conventional alternator since it doesn't have the ability
to vary field current. Maybe the SD8 regulator wouldn't like it.
>
> BTW, how does the E bus get its power in event of a battery contactor
> failure in Z-12? I'm sure its there, I just don't see it. It appears
> to me both alternators would go down so no power thru the diode to the E
> bus.
The e-bus is powered from 2 sources that I can see. One is via
the battery bus through the 'e-bus alternate feed' switch. This
is the path to use if the main battery contactor is off-line. The
other connection is via the diode connecting the ebus to the main
bus.
>
> As a side question, I have been very curious as to the failure rate of
> battery contactors? The book suggests you should carry spares if you
> use Type I, which mine looks like.
I think I might keep a spare at the hangar, but not in the airplane.
It seems like the cheapies get cantankerous with age. I have seen
them get slowly worse - a condition that gives you some warning.
If you notice that the main contactor seems to be getting tired, the
next time you are at home, swap it out.
> Thank you,
> Scott
>
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Autoswitching dual alternators
>
snip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | brucem(at)olypen.com |
| Subject: | Lasar Ignition Draw |
In doing an electrical load analysis for my GlaStar I went to the Lasar service
manual that cost me $75. I could find no mention of the average power
consumption for the electronic ignition mode for my O-320, other than the
instruction to connect it to a 10 amp dedicated circuit. Nor was there any
description of how that mode works.
I could assume that it's a CDI module and use typical draws. For example Light
Speed uses 2.5 amps (12v) for both sets of plugs on a four cylinder engine.
Any thoughts from the list will be appreciated.
Regards, Bruce
McGregor
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail.
http://www.olypen.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Autoswitching dual alternators |
>
>
>Sorry, I thought the aux alternator switch on Z-12 would be normally open.
>Apparently it is closed during normal operations of both alternators.
Correct. The differential between regulator settings causes the
aux alternator to relax during normal operations.
>The description for Z-13 in the book indicates that the SD-8 would be
>switched on in the event of a main alternator failure, so it doesn't appear
>to be autoswitched. Would it make sense to autoswitch it like Z-12? One
>less thing to worry about.
Don't recommend this. There's no provisions in the SD-8 regulator
to annunciate the failure. The SD-20 and its companion regulator
are specifically designed for both-always-ON-autoswitched operation.
>BTW, how does the E bus get its power in event of a battery contactor
>failure in Z-12? I'm sure its there, I just don't see it. It appears to me
>both alternators would go down so no power thru the diode to the E bus.
Just like the e-bus in all other cases where the e-bus is suggested . . .
close the alternate feed switch that takes power from the battery bus
directly to the e-bus.
>As a side question, I have been very curious as to the failure rate of
>battery contactors? The book suggests you should carry spares if you use
>Type I, which mine looks like.
I have builders doing that . . . but I'll bet none of them have had
to dip into spare parts on a trip. I've flown airplanes where this style
of contactor has operated trouble free for over ten years. Had
an airplane in my rental fleet need two replacements in six
months (I think the first replacement was damaged during
install). Failure rate is acceptably low. The MAJOR advantage
of the e-bus with alternate feed is to ELIMINATE even a perfectly
good contactor from battery loads during alternator out operations.
Once the airport is in sight and you have clearance to land, close
the battery contactor to operating anything else you wish . . . past
this point, energy stored in the battery is a non issue and can
be used in any way desired for remainder of flight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV protection |
>
>
>Bob, Thanks for the education, but my curiosity is getting the best of me.
>
> Following the AEC philosophy of minimizing circuit breakers, and if a
>circuit breaker is required in the crowbar OV scheme, the implication is
>that maybe a reset should be attempted. Are there any circumstances during
>flight when one should contemplate re-setting the breaker, or should one go
>directly to Plan B & collect $100?
There are situations where the crowbar ov protection module can
be nuisance tripped. If it nuisance trips, it's most
likely to do it when some accessory is operated (Ref: the post
earlier this week where someone on the RV-List was asking about
nuisance trips of his ov system while being either ignorant of
or ignoring articulate assistance available from AeroElectric
Connection, B&C or participating here on the Aeroelectric-List).
If you get a field breaker trip, and it happens when you flipped
a switch, it is likely that you have some kind of noise issue to
chase out of the system and the breaker can be reset one time
(while watching the voltmeter or alternator load-meter). If it
stays in, cool. Trouble shoot the noise problem on the ground.
If it trips again immediately (with corresponding response on
panel instrumentation that says the alternator is working
overtime) then don't try any more and again, troubleshoot the
ov problem on the ground.
No breaker should be reset more than one time in flight and
most breakers should not be reset at all. Alt field breaker
driving a crowbar ov module is a special case.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lasar Ignition Draw |
>
>In doing an electrical load analysis for my GlaStar I went to the Lasar
>service
>manual that cost me $75. I could find no mention of the average power
>consumption for the electronic ignition mode for my O-320, other than the
>instruction to connect it to a 10 amp dedicated circuit. Nor was there any
>description of how that mode works.
I'm not surprised . . . folks-who-claim-to-know-more-about-airplanes-
than-we-do will drive a certification effort through a whole
raft of obscure, no-value-added hoops while totally overlooking
essential data . . .
>I could assume that it's a CDI module and use typical draws. For example
>Light
>Speed uses 2.5 amps (12v) for both sets of plugs on a four cylinder engine.
That's a reasonable assumption. Suppose it's REALLY 3A, would
this adversely affect the first pass on your load analysis?
It's easy to measure after your system is up and running and
I'd be surprised if it draws more than 2A in flight . . . please
do the measurement and share the data with us.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
One of the best locations for my engine hour gauge in my RV-8A would appear
to be in a sloped section of what is called the left mid-cabin cover. The
problem is that this is right over the fuel valve and the largest
concentration of fuel lines and fuel line fittings in the airplane, and
therefore an area that would seem to me most susceptible to a fuel leak. I
have been trying to keep the wiring out of that area. Is this a reasonable
concern or just a superstition?
Thanks,
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Mickey,
I think if you can learn from a book, (I don't do that so well...more of a visual
learner) then I think you will be fine. The bottom line is...no circut breakers,
no avionics master switch necessary, use fuse blocks (2 or 3) for main bus,
essential buss and possibly battery buss. Use a central grounding block under
the panel with push on connectors.
He talks about not preventing failure but being "failure tolerant", ie: if the
main bus goes down, you have the essential bus to fly on to destination (or until
you can safely land). repairs are done on the ground, not toubleshot in the
air.
I'm sure if Bob were to summarize his ideas for you he could do much better than
me. Indeed, get the book! many of his ideas are there.
Mickey Coggins wrote:
Hi Ron,
Did you learn things that are not in the book?
I'm wondering if it is worth flying to the session
in Ft. Worth from Switzerland. If it is just a
matter of me buckling down and really carefully
reading the book, that would be a better use of
my time, I believe.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
GSM: +41-79-210-3762
FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007
Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Crowbar OV protection |
Just throwing out some info here for a heads up. I have the overvoltage
module wired in and everything working great. One day I had trouble
starting the engine....my fault. Once the engine was started the battery
was very low, I tried to turn on the alt and it would not turn on???? I
then killed the engine turned on the alt and restarted and the alt was
working hard to charge the battery. So at least in my application a very
low battery will trip the over voltage module when switching on the alt. At
least thats what appeared to happen. Now that I know this, I consider it a
non issue.
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
Why cant you put it on the opposite side of the canopy?
>
>One of the best locations for my engine hour gauge in my RV-8A would appear
>to be in a sloped section of what is called the left mid-cabin cover. The
>problem is that this is right over the fuel valve and the largest
>concentration of fuel lines and fuel line fittings in the airplane, and
>therefore an area that would seem to me most susceptible to a fuel leak. I
>have been trying to keep the wiring out of that area. Is this a reasonable
>concern or just a superstition?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Terry
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
There's already too much going on in that panel. Heater control and two 12V
outlets.
Thanks,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott
Bilinski
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire hazard
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Why cant you put it on the opposite side of the canopy?
>
>One of the best locations for my engine hour gauge in my RV-8A would appear
>to be in a sloped section of what is called the left mid-cabin cover. The
>problem is that this is right over the fuel valve and the largest
>concentration of fuel lines and fuel line fittings in the airplane, and
>therefore an area that would seem to me most susceptible to a fuel leak. I
>have been trying to keep the wiring out of that area. Is this a reasonable
>concern or just a superstition?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Terry
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>One of the best locations for my engine hour gauge in my RV-8A would appear
>to be in a sloped section of what is called the left mid-cabin cover. The
>problem is that this is right over the fuel valve and the largest
>concentration of fuel lines and fuel line fittings in the airplane, and
>therefore an area that would seem to me most susceptible to a fuel leak. I
>have been trying to keep the wiring out of that area. Is this a reasonable
>concern or just a superstition?
Let's consider your concerns a bit. Most items on the
panel are fed with 5A circuit protection or smaller. 5A
protection will prevent damage to a 22AWG wire (equal to
solid copper .025" diameter). What is the wall thickness
and volume of the metal line? A cursory thermal study
would suggest that the wire is 100X more vulnerable
than a fuel line. The same fuses that protect wires
also protect anything the wire might come into contact
with.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV protection |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>Just throwing out some info here for a heads up. I have the overvoltage
>module wired in and everything working great. One day I had trouble
>starting the engine....my fault. Once the engine was started the battery
>was very low, I tried to turn on the alt and it would not turn on????
Was the breaker tripped?
> I
>then killed the engine turned on the alt and restarted and the alt was
>working hard to charge the battery. So at least in my application a very
>low battery will trip the over voltage module when switching on the alt. At
>least thats what appeared to happen. Now that I know this, I consider it a
>non issue.
If the OV module takes an alternator off line, it MUST open
the breaker to do it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Subject Matter Expert Search |
I'm looking for an individuals with expertise in microwave low noise
amplifiers and/or isolation of receiver/transmitter portions of
millimeter wave radars using a common antenna. If anyone monitoring
the AeroElectric-List has some knowledge in these disciplines (or
knows someone who might) . . . I'd like to hear from them directly
and off-list. Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Circuit breakers |
>>Howdy-
>>
>>While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's
>>that will work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have
>>any insights as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these
>>devices to our homebuilts?
>Why would you want to use a part that is more expensive, higher parts
>count and adds no level of protection greater than the simple fuse?
>Bob . . .
Well, how about your recent comments on the crowbar OV protection? And all of
the schematics from your friends at B&C? Now, if I'm going to put in an ATC-style
fuse block, how much more convenient and neat could I possibly get than to
use an ATC style CB to do the job? The only question in my mind is if these
CB's are equal to our needs.
And I still don't know if they're suitable...
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuit breakers |
>
>
> >>Howdy-
> >>
> >>While comparison shopping on the web I discovered that one can get CB's
> >>that will work in ATC / automotive style fuse blocks. Does anyone have
> >>any insights as to the reliability / quality / applicability of these
> >>devices to our homebuilts?
>
> >Why would you want to use a part that is more expensive, higher parts
> >count and adds no level of protection greater than the simple fuse?
>
> >Bob . . .
>
>
>Well, how about your recent comments on the crowbar OV protection?
What about them?
> And all of the schematics from your friends at B&C?
You lost me. B&C probably shows breakers on all of their
drawings, I show a mix depending on which z-drawing you're
looking at. As far as the crowbar ov module goes, I AWAYS
show a breaker feeding the alternator field circuit. If you
choose fuseblocks for the remainder of the airplane's bus
structure and circuit protection, then I show a feed off
the main bus with a fusible link to the only circuit breaker
in the panel.
On the other hand, if choose to go all breakers, then a breaker
to feed the crowbar protected alternator-field supply
is automatically satisfied.
> Now, if I'm going to put in an ATC-style fuse block, how much more
> convenient and neat could I possibly get than to use an ATC style CB to
> do the job? The only question in my mind is if these CB's are equal to
> our needs.
>
>And I still don't know if they're suitable...
They'll probably work as advertised. "Suitable" is a vague
term. My perception is that they add no value because they're
more expensive and add complexity which pushes reliability
down while doing nothing for me that a fuse won't do. I have
no hands-on experience . . . so no real-life data to offer.
Are you considering ATC-Breaker for ALL of the protection
slots in the fuseblock or just for the alternator field
circuit?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lasar Ignition Draw |
Hi Bruce,
I have a 10A fuse, idle current (engine nor running) measured 0.2A plus
20ma for my LED warning light, running current is in my case 2A.
Glastar #5794
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: <brucem(at)olypen.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lasar Ignition Draw
>
> In doing an electrical load analysis for my GlaStar I went to the Lasar
service
> manual that cost me $75. I could find no mention of the average power
> consumption for the electronic ignition mode for my O-320, other than the
> instruction to connect it to a 10 amp dedicated circuit. Nor was there
any
> description of how that mode works.
>
> I could assume that it's a CDI module and use typical draws. For example
Light
> Speed uses 2.5 amps (12v) for both sets of plugs on a four cylinder
engine.
>
> Any thoughts from the list will be appreciated.
>
> Regards, Bruce
> McGregor
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail.
> http://www.olypen.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
Charlie,
My impression was that that they could engrave anything, though my panel doesn't
have lighted switches - only a fiber-optically lit legend. I just bought standard
switches, so you could use any kind of switch you wanted. I just spt the
model of switches I was going to use and the laser cut the panel to fit, and
did an excellent job.
Brett
Quoting Charlie Kuss :
>
>
> Brett,
> Are these available in double pole and double throw
> models? What is the pricing on these units?
> Charlie Kuss
>
> Ferrell
> >
> >They can also do very nice custom lighted legend
> sheets. They did mine for my Veloctiy XL's overhead
> switch panel:
> >http://www.velocityxl.com/Electrical.htm#Chapter
> 13.3.4 - Switches and Circuit Protection
> >
> >Brett
> >
> >Quoting Scot Stambaugh :
> >
> >> Stambaugh
> >>
> >> If you go with the toggles you might consider this
> >> stuff:
> >> http://sptpanel.com/glow_strips.htm
> >> I installed it in my Rocket and like it a lot
> because
> >> it is
> >> dimmable. Attached is a picture of my cockpit with
> >> the lights out and the
> >> panels lit using the glow strips.
> >>
> >> scot
> >>
> >>
> >> Diffenbaugh"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Can anyone point me to a good source for high
> quality
> >> engraved lighted
> >> >rocker switches?
> >> >If I change my mind and end up going with toggle
> >> switches, what is the best
> >> >way to light them. (All of my instruments &
> avionics
> >> will be internally
> >> >lighted)
> >> >
> >> >Scott Diffenbaugh
> >> >diff(at)foothill.net
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> on the
> >> this
> >> generous
> >> Contributions
> >> any other
> >> Forums.
> >> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> >> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> >> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> >> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Visit us at www.velocityxl.com
> >44VF Velocity XL/FG
> >I68 Cincinnati, OH
> >
> >
>
>
> on the
> this
> generous
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
--
Visit us at www.velocityxl.com
44VF Velocity XL/FG
I68 Cincinnati, OH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | The more obvious it is, the less one sees it! |
Bob,
I had doubts about the interest of the Essential Bus in the case of my very simple
installation.
You answered me :
>....... and MINIMIZED CONSUMPTION
>because it can bypass the battery contactor thereby eliminating
>a parasitic load on the battery (battery contactor draws 0.8 to
>1.0 amps). Contactor draw contributes nothing the operation of equipment
>while tossing off 4x the energy it takes to operate a capable nav radio.
Few time later ...
>The MAJOR advantage of the e-bus with alternate feed is to ELIMINATE even a perfectly
>good contactor from battery loads during alternator out operations.
... you wrote to Scott (and all !)?
My battery contactor drains as mutch current as all my essentials instruments !!!!!!!
Regards,
Michel
Wiring his MCR SPORTSTER vith an Essential Bus ....
Cholet FRANCE
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV protection |
I cringe as I say this, but it was a breaker switch. So maybe the OVM was
tripping the breaker/switch?
>
>
>><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>>Just throwing out some info here for a heads up. I have the overvoltage
>>module wired in and everything working great. One day I had trouble
>>starting the engine....my fault. Once the engine was started the battery
>>was very low, I tried to turn on the alt and it would not turn on????
>
>
> Was the breaker tripped?
>
>> I
>>then killed the engine turned on the alt and restarted and the alt was
>>working hard to charge the battery. So at least in my application a very
>>low battery will trip the over voltage module when switching on the alt. At
>>least thats what appeared to happen. Now that I know this, I consider it a
>>non issue.
>
> If the OV module takes an alternator off line, it MUST open
> the breaker to do it.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
I'd like to put service loops in all the lines running to my panel so I could detach
it and lower it to the floor for service in my RV8A. However, I don't know
how to design these so the conflicting goals
- prevent abrasion & flexing of the wire & tubing
- permit free movement when the panel is detached
can be met. Can anyone provide practical advice on how these loops are placed/secured
so they work? My panel is 21 inches above the floor so a 7 inch diameter
loop would be required. It's a VFR panel with airspeed, altimeter, Dynon
D-10, Grand Rapids engine monitor, and Garmin transponder. Handheld Icom nav/com
and Garmin GPS 90 attach to the panel front.
Dave Reel - RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg's Mail" <50coperhed(at)jbntelco.com> |
| Subject: | alternator breaker tripping |
Hi, everyone, I just got my RV4 in the air and have used the ovm
wired in as shown in the AEC book with an internally regulated
alternator. All is well about 13.8 volts on the voltmeter, until I
turn on the strobes or a landing light and then the 5a pullable
breaker on the alt field trips.Then the voltage goes down to
about 13.2 or 13.3. Where would you recomend to start looking?
Thanks Greg Davis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [PLEASE READ] - Why Do I Have A Fund Raiser Each Year? |
Dear Listers,
I was thinking that perhaps I should explain why I have a Fund Raiser and
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I believe that the Lists services that I provide here offer a great many
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I have received an extremely positive response from Listers regarding the
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I've been running email Lists and services under the matronics.com domain
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Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lasar Ignition Draw |
>
>
>Hi Bruce,
>
>I have a 10A fuse, idle current (engine nor running) measured 0.2A plus
>20ma for my LED warning light, running current is in my case 2A.
>
>Glastar #5794
Great data. Thank you. Are the figures for each magneto
or the pair together?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Grand Rapids EIS 4000 Tach compatibility with Lightspeed |
Plasma II
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Guys, a few weeks ago Ross Mickey posted some stuff to the List that he couldn't
get the Grand Rapids EIS 4000 engine monitor to read the tach signal from the
Lightspeed Plasma II ignition system. I have this combo so I asked Greg Toman
about it and here is his response. If you have this combo give him a call
and he can talk you through this quick and easy mod to get it to work (or if you're
ordering it new, and are using LSE PLasma II's, he can ship it this way
from day one).
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing with EIS 4000 and dual LSE Plasma II's....
Msg from Greg Toman 11/14/03:
This isn't a problem. There is a resistor and capacitor in the tach circuit that
you can remove youself with our help over the phone. When this is done, you
will be able to use the tach output from the Plasma II.
Don't worry...by now it seems like I have encountered every problem you can imagine!
That is an easy one, but it is one of the very rare cases where our(unmodified)
tachometer input circuit is not compatible with someones tach output.
Thanks
Greg Toman
Grand Rapids Technologies, Inc
616 583-8000
fax 616 583-8001
www.grtavionics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator breaker tripping |
><50coperhed(at)jbntelco.com>
>
>Hi, everyone, I just got my RV4 in the air and have used the ovm
>wired in as shown in the AEC book with an internally regulated
>alternator. All is well about 13.8 volts on the voltmeter, until I
>turn on the strobes or a landing light and then the 5a pullable
>breaker on the alt field trips.Then the voltage goes down to
>about 13.2 or 13.3. Where would you recomend to start looking?
>Thanks Greg Davis
If I understand you, the crowbar trips if you turn ON EITHER
strobes or landing light. How long have you had your ov
module? A couple of years ago, we made a design change to
preclude nuisance tripping that showed up in a small percentage
of airplanes. What color are the leadwires on your ov module
and when did you buy it?
It may need a modification that I can accomplish in a few minutes
on the bench if you'll mail it to me.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ServiceLoops |
>
>I'd like to put service loops in all the lines running to my panel so I
>could detach it and lower it to the floor for service in my
>RV8A. However, I don't know how to design these so the conflicting goals
> - prevent abrasion & flexing of the wire & tubing
> - permit free movement when the panel is detached
>can be met. Can anyone provide practical advice on how these loops are
>placed/secured so they work? My panel is 21 inches above the floor so a 7
>inch diameter loop would be required. It's a VFR panel with airspeed,
>altimeter, Dynon D-10, Grand Rapids engine monitor, and Garmin
>transponder. Handheld Icom nav/com and Garmin GPS 90 attach to the panel
>front.
The task of securing a loop is no different than to secure
a straight run . . . two or three support points around the
loop by which tye-wraps can keep the loop from flopping
around should do it. I'd route the cable to come onto the
removable panel at the lower, outboard corner of the panel.
Install enough support points on interior sidewall to support
the coil when installed for flight.
Digikey stocks Panuit self sticking tie supports (Item 3 on
http://dkc3.digikey.com/pdf/T033/1004-1005.pdf )
I have no first hand experience with the adhesive supplied with
these supports . . . you can always peel off the supplied
stickum and install the support with E6000.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
Thanks for the reply, Bob, but let me restate my concerns. They are not
about a wire coming loose and burning through the fuel lines, but a
potential fuel leak in that area of many fuel line connections being ignited
by the a loose electrical connection or by something in the meter's
mechanism. It would seem to me that the probability is very low, but I'm
not sure what safe practice is. I know we have electrical power and
connections at boost pumps, but maybe they are designed to operate in an
explosive environment and my hour meter isn't.
Thanks,
Terry
>
>One of the best locations for my engine hour gauge in my RV-8A would appear
>to be in a sloped section of what is called the left mid-cabin cover. The
>problem is that this is right over the fuel valve and the largest
>concentration of fuel lines and fuel line fittings in the airplane, and
>therefore an area that would seem to me most susceptible to a fuel leak. I
>have been trying to keep the wiring out of that area. Is this a reasonable
>concern or just a superstition?
Let's consider your concerns a bit. Most items on the
panel are fed with 5A circuit protection or smaller. 5A
protection will prevent damage to a 22AWG wire (equal to
solid copper .025" diameter). What is the wall thickness
and volume of the metal line? A cursory thermal study
would suggest that the wire is 100X more vulnerable
than a fuel line. The same fuses that protect wires
also protect anything the wire might come into contact
with.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
Hi Mickey,
I agree that you can get everything you need from the book and CD. On the other
hand, Watsonville was definitely worth it for me. No disrespect to Bob, but
unless you can get to the U.S. from Switzerland free, It is not that valuable.
I drove 650 Km to get there, but I also visited with my son that weekend.
There are a few tricks that you'll learn at a seminar because they need to be seen,
but they aren't that important or necessary. The most important thing for
me was the reinforcement of the written material that handling and seeing the
examples Bob passed around provided as well as hearing him in person. Some
of them are mistakes that need to be avoided, and some are examples of techniques.
I have been dabbling with electronics and electricity from a young age, but that
level of knowledge isn't necessary for the class. As I tell people, a little
knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I'm real dangerous when it comes to electronics.
Asking questions on the list will probably help you get what you need
after reading the material.
BTW, the one place where a breaker is used is on the crowbar OV protection.
Dan Branstrom
From: Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watsonville
Hi Mickey,
I think if you can learn from a book, (I don't do that so well...more of a visual
learner) then I think you will be fine. The bottom line is...no circuit breakers,
no avionics master switch necessary, use fuse blocks (2 or 3) for main bus,
essential buss and possibly battery buss. Use a central grounding block under
the panel with push on connectors.
He talks about not preventing failure but being "failure tolerant", ie: if the
main bus goes down, you have the essential bus to fly on to destination (or until
you can safely land). repairs are done on the ground, not toubleshot in the
air.
I'm sure if Bob were to summarize his ideas for you he could do much better than
me. Indeed, get the book! many of his ideas are there.
Mickey Coggins wrote:
Hi Ron,
Did you learn things that are not in the book?
I'm wondering if it is worth flying to the session
in Ft. Worth from Switzerland. If it is just a
matter of me buckling down and really carefully
reading the book, that would be a better use of
my time, I believe.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
GSM: +41-79-210-3762
FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007
Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg's Mail" <50coperhed(at)jbntelco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator breaker tripping |
My OVM was purchased in july of this year and has black and
orange wires. And yes it trips if I switch on either the strobes or
a landing or taxi light.
Thanks Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator breaker tripping
>
> ><50coperhed(at)jbntelco.com>
> >
> >Hi, everyone, I just got my RV4 in the air and have used the ovm
> >wired in as shown in the AEC book with an internally regulated
> >alternator. All is well about 13.8 volts on the voltmeter, until I
> >turn on the strobes or a landing light and then the 5a pullable
> >breaker on the alt field trips.Then the voltage goes down to
> >about 13.2 or 13.3. Where would you recomend to start looking?
> >Thanks Greg Davis
>
> If I understand you, the crowbar trips if you turn ON EITHER
> strobes or landing light. How long have you had your ov
> module? A couple of years ago, we made a design change to
> preclude nuisance tripping that showed up in a small percentage
> of airplanes. What color are the leadwires on your ov module
> and when did you buy it?
>
> It may need a modification that I can accomplish in a few minutes
> on the bench if you'll mail it to me.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Thanks for the reply, Bob, but let me restate my concerns. They are not
>about a wire coming loose and burning through the fuel lines, but a
>potential fuel leak in that area of many fuel line connections being ignited
>by the a loose electrical connection or by something in the meter's
>mechanism. It would seem to me that the probability is very low, but I'm
>not sure what safe practice is. I know we have electrical power and
>connections at boost pumps, but maybe they are designed to operate in an
>explosive environment and my hour meter isn't.
Understand. Now your talking about multiple failures stack on top
of variable conditions. Leaking line + electrical arc that MIGHT
ignite fumes IF they reach stoichiometric proportions. Except
for a gross failure that dumps quantities of fuel into the cockpit,
your nose will raise warning flags on drips long before the mixture
approaches hazardous levels.
Heard of a Glasair battery box exploding when the battery contactor
(mounted inside box with battery) was operated after un-controlled
alternator runaway was permitted to proceed so far that products
of an out-gassing battery confined in stoichiometric proportions.
Just mounting the battery out in the open where products of overcharging
simply wafted away would have broken the chain that supported the
catastrophic event. It's a good question to ask . . . I perceive
that risks due to proximity of fuel lines and panel mounted hardware
are extremely low.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lasar Ignition Draw |
Its for both together, when I have some time I might do it left and right.
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lasar Ignition Draw
>
> >
> >
> >Hi Bruce,
> >
> >I have a 10A fuse, idle current (engine nor running) measured 0.2A plus
> >20ma for my LED warning light, running current is in my case 2A.
> >
> >Glastar #5794
>
> Great data. Thank you. Are the figures for each magneto
> or the pair together?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
Bob,
Just finished reviewing the Z-13 archives again and found answers to a bunch
of my questions. A great resource--Thank you! A couple questions
outstanding:
1) Found this question but couldn't find your response: How about hooking
the main alt field switch to the battery bus in case the battery contactor
fails?
The alternator would then remain on line and continue to power the main bus.
Assuming the alternator would be unstable without a battery, could you close
the E bus aux feed switch and backfeed the battery through the diode? I
believe I read in one of the archives that the fuselink is located at the E
bus in case of backfeed.
2) To help me better understand the E bus operation, I would like to pose a
hypothetical situation. If I have an SD-8 back up alternator, and my E bus
load is set up for a hypothetical 20A (it will actually be about 6A typical
to 12A max), and I have my ACS 2002 voltmeter hooked to the E bus, and my
ACS hall amp sensor around the SD-8 "B" lead, and I have a low voltage
warning light installed on the backup circuit, would you mind outlining what
I will see and/or read from the point when I close the aux feed switch until
my E bus devices fail?
Thank you again!
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip |
I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
configuration.
The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick into
the aeroplane?
Thanks,
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard M. Martin" <martinrm(at)ncplus.net> |
| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip |
25 pin sub D
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Neil
Clayton
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick
grip
I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
configuration.
The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick into
the aeroplane?
Thanks,
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | CNX80 and MX20 at auction on ebay |
I have a couple of radios up on Ebay, I ordered them for a (can't say it in
mixed company) who then bounced a check to me and won't answer his
phone. That'll teach me. They're at my cost, about 35% off retail.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2442603158
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2442826941
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net> |
| Subject: | wire size for charging battery |
I'm looking to add a wire to the positive side of my battery with some kind of
plug to make it easier to get to and charge my battery on my RV6 instead of contortioning
to remove the battery box cover and work with the small PC680 terminal
screw and charger clips. I'm wondering if a number 8 cable is sufficient
for this application, it would be about 5 feet or less of cable.
Dave Ford
RV6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
Darwin
I bought the approach system because it allowed me to buy the Garmin
equipment without having anyone wire it. approach systems has a letter that
they will send you that you can send to the garmin dealer this allows them
to sell you the equipment without them wiring it. approach system sells
cables for most equipment. I have the 530, sl30 g106a, gtx 330, trutrac 250,
bluemountain efis1, pma 6000cd. They had interface cables for all of this
equipment. I cannot comment on functionality as I have not wired my panel
yet.
I bought the approach systems mostly because I wanted to wire my own panel.
most of the avionics shops that I talked to had different ideas on how to
wire (my panel) and it was getting annoying dealing with them. first I had
to tell them I was all electric, Then I had to tell them I did not want an
avionics master, and so on. Even if I do not use the approach systems
equipment. It was worth it to me to get the equipment without having some
else do the work.
Ron Raby
Lancair ES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff(at)Smartm.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Panel Input
>
> Darwin sez:
>
> Equipment list as follows:
>
> Garmin 340 audio panel
> Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
> Garmin 106A CDI
> Garmin 330S transponder
> UPS SL 40 Comm
> Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
> Dynon EFIS
> ACS2002 engine monitor
> Approach systems wiring hub
> EXP buss switch panel.
> Some sort of CD player
>
> Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
>
> Fire away, Nomex on!!
>
> No fireproof clothes necessary, you're among friends here. Good stuff.
I've recently gone thru the same decision path for my RV-8. Here's my
comments I send to you with the utmost respect. They are my opinions only,
not law. My mission profile and needs may be vastly differen t from yours.
Here goes:
>
> Instead of the SL40, you may want to consider the ICOM A-200 comm for a
backup. Can be had for approx $750 rather than $1380 for the SL-40.
>
> As to the Approach Systems Hub, I think it's a great product, but I looked
at their pricing and the fact that I didn't think I was going to keep
upgrading the panel (which a modular approach begs for), and the price for
my panel, even with an OSH discount was in the neighborhood of $1300 just
for avionics wiring, not to mention that you have to find a place to put the
hub. I have contracted with Stark Avionics
http://www.mindspring.com/~jts7/index.htm to pre wire my racks. Mr Stark is
wiring the trays only. ONce I'm all done and ready to fly, I'll then plunk
down the 10-large for the Garmin boxes. This way, my $$ isn't tied up in
radios I cannot use and when I do buy, I hopefully will have the latest
datacards and software revs. He charges me up front for the racks,
connectors, materials, and his labor BUT when I buy the radios from him (and
he has the lowest prices I have found) he credits me back the prices on the
racks. After it's all said and done, his matls and l!
> abor to wire the whole stack is approx $500. I also paid him extra for a
full functional check. Others who have used him have had good things to
say. I also got a quote from Pacific Coast Avionics, and they were
comparable to Stark, but did not credit back any tray and connector $$. If
you're buying your radios at the same time, this would be a non issue.
Another friend also used PCA and had great things to say about them as well.
Approach looks like a stellar product too.
>
> Exp bus: look on this list's archives and the Aeroelectric website for a
rousing discussion of this manufacturer's merits. I woudn't do it if it
were my plane.
>
> CD Player? I've recently changed on that one, I"ll not mess around with
CD's when for a few more $$ you can put a portable 40GB hard drive to store
approx 500 CD's and carry it around with you. Why agonize over which CD to
take along, when you can have all the music that's important to you (or your
whole collection for that matter) with you in the car, in the plane, on the
airlines, at a friends house. Do a Google search on the word "iPod". It's
made by Apple. Just a 1/8" entertainment jack next to the headphone and mic
input to my stereo intercom, and I'll also put a power plug in place as well
as an IPod docking station in the plane. BTW, VW is shipping their Bugs
with an IPod dock, that may give you an indication of the acceptance of the
device. Besides, it's tiny compared to a CD player.
>
> You appear to be gearing up for IFR flight. Based on that, have you a
backup plan if the D-10 goes south in the clag? I'm going with the D-10 but
am using the Micro EFIS-3 from PC Flight systems.
http://pcflightsystems.com/ At $1200, it's less costly than a TSO'd
electric AI, weighs less and draws less power. Aviation Consumer gave it
rave reviews this month, including flying acro in a Decathalon. The solid
state gyros did not lose lock even after 5 aileron rolls to the left
followed by 5 to the right. I applaud your decision to put standard TC as
well as altimeter and AS for backup.
>
> I too thought about 2 1/4 pitot static instruments, but I do not relish
flying IFR with reference to non-TSO'd altimeter and airspeeds. If there
are TSO'd little gages out there, please let me know, I'll change my panel
layout asap. Van's panel is so close, I wish all my gages were smaller.
The 3 1/8 gages look huge when I sit in my RV. Oh well.
>
> Good call on the Trutrack. Friends who fly IFR regularly in their 6's and
8's report good reviews on the Trutrak stuff, and they recommend an A/P for
herding an rv in IMC in the bumps.
>
> ON the Garmin 330? Are you going with the traffic aviodance feature? If
so, I'm jealous. Of not, why not consider the 327? You'll save $$.
>
> In general, I too was avioding the wiring part like the plague. I quickly
relaized that there is no off the shelf wiring that will suit my plans. I
plagerized others work from their websites, etc. Then I realized that I
would just have to knuckle down and draw my own. What I did not re-draw was
Bob's Z-13: All Electric Airplane on a Budget. I made a few minor changes
to switches, but nothing that forced me into re drawing it. Went to Kinko's
and had it blown up as far as I could go. I also suggest getting the
wiring drawings that come with their pre fabbed wiring kit. They are really
useful for knowing where to put wires thru spars, etc. I think they charged
me $3.00 or something. Also buy the optional drawing for the firewall
forward. That will help you decide where to put stuff like ground blocks,
heat valves, transducer mounts for your ACS monitro. I left the planning
until the last minute, but I read Bob's book and hacked away at my simple
hand drawn wiring !
> diagrams and wire label spreadsheets all last winter while on business
trips. Now that I"m 85% done, I look back at the project and feel a great
satisfaction in my design and execution. I also realize that I've really
enjoyed the wiring process, an unexpected response. Best advice from an
RV-6 builder who did a full IFR panel like I'm doing was, "If you think you
may want it, put it in now. It's far easier to wire up a circuit now, only
to find out that you don't need it after you're flying." I concur. Also,
don't launch into wiring without a plan, even rudimentary drawings will
make it go so much easier. Every time I've tried to 'wing' it on the fly
instead of drawing a diagram, it ends up taking much longer to install. So,
keep planning, do your alternator load analyis, do a FMEA (failure mode
effects analysis) for your instrumentation and your power distribution.
Keep picking away at it, and just like riveting your wing skins, it'll be
done before you know it. !
> This list is the best place to start. Have fun, call me or email me d
>
> Art Treff
> RV-8 Fastback (wiring)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Raby" <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
Scott
I used carling technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V.
Lancair uses a guy that does trophy engraving to get these switches
engraved.
I can send you a digital picture of mine if you want to see what they look
like.
Ron Raby
Lancair ES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches
>
> Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
> rocker switches?
> If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the
best
> way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
> lighted)
>
> Scott Diffenbaugh
> diff(at)foothill.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
Ron,
Are these switches available in other styles besides a simple ON OFF (ie 1-2)
switch? Are single pole, double throw & double pole models available? Please e-mail
me a copy of the below referenced photos, off list, please.
Charlie Kuss
>
>Scott
>
>I used carling technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V.
>Lancair uses a guy that does trophy engraving to get these switches
>engraved.
>I can send you a digital picture of mine if you want to see what they look
>like.
>
>Ron Raby
>
>Lancair ES
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches
>
>
>
>>
>> Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
>> rocker switches?
>> If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the
>best
>> way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
>> lighted)
>>
>> Scott Diffenbaugh
>> diff(at)foothill.net
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
Dave,
I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need is a
wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course). For a
float charger, or a solar panel, the wire is very small. If you have an RG
battery, how long are you going between flying the plane? A charger may not
be necessary because of the low self-discharge rate.
I believe that for a float charger, you could easily use an audio jack, such
as the XLR series from the Shack. (274-013 for mounting on the plane, and
274-010 for the wire to your charger). I have seen one of the plugs used
for trailer hitches used for this purpose, too.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery
>
> I'm looking to add a wire to the positive side of my battery with some
kind of plug to make it easier to get to and charge my battery on my RV6
instead of contortioning to remove the battery box cover and work with the
small PC680 terminal screw and charger clips. I'm wondering if a number 8
cable is sufficient for this application, it would be about 5 feet or less
of cable.
>
> Dave Ford
> RV6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
>
>
>Dave,
>I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need is a
>wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course). For a
>float charger, or a solar panel, the wire is very small. If you have an RG
>battery, how long are you going between flying the plane? A charger may not
>be necessary because of the low self-discharge rate.
>
>I believe that for a float charger, you could easily use an audio jack, such
>as the XLR series from the Shack. (274-013 for mounting on the plane, and
>274-010 for the wire to your charger). I have seen one of the plugs used
>for trailer hitches used for this purpose, too.
>
>Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
You're right on sir . . . you can tie an external
power jack right to the battery with a small, inline
fuse appropriate to the chargers max output and
you're done.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> stick grip |
| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace |
stick grip
stick grip
>
>
>25 pin sub D
>
>Richard
that would be my connector of choice as well.
Bob . . .
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Neil
>Clayton
>To: cozy_builders(at)canard.com; canard-aviators(at)yahoogroups.com;
>aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick
>grip
>
>
>
>
>I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
>readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
>configuration.
>The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
>
>Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick into
>the aeroplane?
>
>Thanks,
>Neil
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lasar Ignition Draw |
>
>
>Its for both together, when I have some time I might do it left and right.
I'd be very pleased to have that information. Thank you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 low voltage warning revisited |
Hi Bob,
Just when I thought I had it, I was ambushed. I had wondered about the
need for a low voltage warning light if running on SD-8 back up alternator
and you responded it wasn't really necessary if I designed my E bus
properly, but if I wanted to monitor it I could either hook up my voltmeter
to my E bus or use one of your AEC 9005 warning lights. I decided to plan
on hooking my ACS-2000 voltmeter display to my E bus and set the parameter
to warn me of low voltage. Problem solved until I discovered that the B&C
PM/OV kit #504-1 comes with a low voltage warning light, but it is set to
light for overvoltage (I assume when the breaker trips) or if the alt switch
is left off (I have learned there is no field on a pm alt & if the rpm is
sufficient, it is always on). So, do I just leave out the light, or can I
benefit from it (might be a nice backup) by maybe wiring it through a 2 pole
alt switch? Many thanks. Scott
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | A new Z-figure drawing? |
>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob,
>
>I enjoyed your discussion in Sullivan at our Dragonfly/Q fly-in last
>month. I think you do a great service to the homebuilder community by
>refuting bogus claims and helping us all stay on the straight and narrow
>and keep our priorities right.
Thank you Dave. That event is one of our yearly favorites. Since
the tandem wing crowd is completely without formal factory support,
I detect a higher level of technical innovation and exploration
by builders there than for any other gathering we frequent.
>I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying
>your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I
>am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS
>systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
>all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
>integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
comfortable
completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only part of
the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can
take that particular piece of equipment down.
>I am very interested in having dual alternators and a single RG
>battery. I tried many times to separate my electrical loads into
>essential bus and main bus, but I can't get rid of the feeling that most
>everything is "essential", so I am instead separating things into an
>"always-hot" bus with ignition and clock, and a "main" bus with everything
>else on it.
The "essential bus" is really an ENDURANCE bus . . . it's a highly
reliable bus because it has dual power pathways, it's a place to
minimize loads on a limited power resource (battery) should the
alternator(s) go down . . . 'cause it let's you eliminate the battery
contactor drain that is equal to or more than power required for
several radios.
>I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together,
>with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them
>if they should become psychotic.
Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component
failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around
that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures,
rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably
the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine
driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths
between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level
of dependability.
Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
managed.
>I've got a schematic I'd like to show you. It's quite simple and I
>believe elegant, and provides for automatic disconnect of failed
>alternators (OV crowbar), but also for disconnection of the battery in
>case it shorts. I don't know if that is a problem for alternators, but
>I'd like your opinion as to whether it is important to be able to
>disconnect the battery from the main bus in the event it fails in
>flight. I've put 50,000uF caps on the regulator outputs. I can send the
>schematic if you have a minute to look it over and give me a sanity check.
I think it's better to build and debug a much massaged,
tried and proven design. If there are problems heretofore
undetected, please share them with us. It's a good thing
that everyone knows about them so they can be corrected.
If there are features missing that you think are
necessary for the way you plan to use the system,
we'd all like to know about those too. The first
issue of Appendix Z had three or four drawings, it's up to
thirty and growing. Each drawing was added to illustrate
useful features for consideration by every builder.
I think this would be a more useful exercise than to comb
out a start-from-scratch architecture. Keep in mind that
the elegant solutions EVOLVE . . . Appendix Z represents
17 years of conversations with builders and it will continue
evolve for the foreseeable future.
Of course, you're free and indeed encouraged to architecture
a system that affords you the most comfort. But it would
be helpful to the OBAM aviation community at large if
we build on work that's gone before rather than start from
scratch.
Please join us on the AeroElectric-List and share as
much as you can with other participants. There are quite
a number of software and hardware wieners along with
pilots that would be pleased to participate in the
evolution of your work as well.
May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
platform completed and debugged before you begin to
add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
depend.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 questions |
>
>
>Bob,
>Just finished reviewing the Z-13 archives again and found answers to a bunch
>of my questions. A great resource--Thank you! A couple questions
>outstanding:
>
>1) Found this question but couldn't find your response: How about hooking
>the main alt field switch to the battery bus in case the battery contactor
>fails? The alternator would then remain on line and continue to power the
>main bus.
If the battery contactor opens, battery voltage would fall and
the regulator would full-field the alternator producing a voltage
runaway condition.
>Assuming the alternator would be unstable without a battery, could you close
>the E bus aux feed switch and backfeed the battery through the diode? I
>believe I read in one of the archives that the fuselink is located at the E
>bus in case of backfeed.
>2) To help me better understand the E bus operation, I would like to pose a
>hypothetical situation. If I have an SD-8 back up alternator, and my E bus
>load is set up for a hypothetical 20A (it will actually be about 6A typical
>to 12A max), and I have my ACS 2002 voltmeter hooked to the E bus, and my
>ACS hall amp sensor around the SD-8 "B" lead, and I have a low voltage
>warning light installed on the backup circuit, would you mind outlining what
>I will see and/or read from the point when I close the aux feed switch until
>my E bus devices fail?
I don't understand the question. Why would the e-bus devices fail?
The goals of Z-13 design are to supply dual pathways and dual engine
driven power sources for the e-bus that are on TOP of the battery
as a last ditch power source. For the most part, we've said that
multiple failures on any single tank of gas are so remote as to
be insignificant for consideration in our design. Is the "12A max"
load a continuous load you intend to support while en route? All
you have to do is get this down to 10A and you're 100% covered by
the SD-8. So before you really have to sweat, you have to loose
both alternators and then you still have a well-maintained,
RG battery to get you down. A yeary-fresh 17 a.h. battery is
1-hour plus endurance and I have to believe you can get your
endurance loads lower than 10A.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Future replacement for Rotax rectifier/regulator ? |
Hi Bob and all,
This is to let you know that a fellow pilot and electrics researcher is
willing to undertake the design of a more modern rectifier/regulator for the
Rotax 912/914 PM alternator. He is talking about switching and chopping and
low heat.
We happily offered to flight test the future design.
We just spent the afternoon sorting out the schematics of the present
regulator. I passed him a stator and rotor to allow for basic measurements
and components dimensioning.
For what it's worth
Regards
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator breaker tripping |
><50coperhed(at)jbntelco.com>
>
> My OVM was purchased in july of this year and has black and
> orange wires. And yes it trips if I switch on either the strobes or
> a landing or taxi light.
> Thanks Greg
Okey, before you do anything else to fix this,
send me your ovm for modification. This is a rare occurrence
and never happens close by so that I can instrument the
airplane to deduce root causes. However, there are some
things I can try on your OVM that will let me deduce
some root causes without having to actually put my hands
on your airplane. It's important that we do only one thing
at a time . . . too many times in the past, I've seen
a shotgun approach to problem solving. This may produce
acceptable results but it always begs the question, which
change really fixed it and were they ALL necessary?
We have an opportunity to do some good detective work
here. I appreciate your willingness to participate.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV protection |
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I cringe as I say this, but it was a breaker switch. So maybe the OVM was
>tripping the breaker/switch?
Okay . . . yes, if you have a breaker-switch in the alternator field
circuit and it appears to open all by itself when you are switching
other things in the system, it may well be a nuisance trip of the
OV module. I'm working with another builder on the same issue.
We've shipped nearly 1000 of these things over the past 10 years
and they're rarely a problem but there are some airplanes that
seem intent on pushing the current design past limits. Let's
see what I find out on the other case and then we'll work on
yours.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jonathan & Kathryn Hults" <jkhults(at)interlinkdsl.com> |
| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip |
Neil,
Call J.D. at Infinity Aerospace. He had one of his stick grips at
Oshkosh last year already configured with a cannon plug type pin
connector with a threaded bezel to screw it onto the end of your control
stick! He said you can just unscrew it and take it with you when you
get out of the airplane (for security) if you want to.
Jon
Lancair Legacy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Clayton
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick
grip
-->
I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
configuration.
The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick
into
the aeroplane?
Thanks,
Neil
=
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> stick grip |
| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace |
stick grip
grip
How about a DB-25? That's what I plan to use.
Dave Morris
>-->
>
>I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
>readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
>configuration.
>The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
>
>Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick
>into
>the aeroplane?
>
>Thanks,
>Neil
>
>
>>==
>direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>==
>==
>==
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
>
>
> > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
> >
> > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> > a fuse.
>
>Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
>that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I said
>I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of time,
>and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of money. =)
I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built in?
>I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
>argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts cutting
>out on your third test flight that you can glance down and see your fuel
>pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you DIDN'T fasten
>things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded and shorted out.
>You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try to put in a new fuse
>- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid wasting time on trying an
>engine restart, which reduces your workload somewhat. As long as you
>aren't overloading the pilot with information (and you have to really
>LOOK to get this bit) having more information available is often nice.
Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate
fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits?
Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse
is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in
won't blow too?
>In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
>ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the weather's
>like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so no plane
>building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is all I can do.
Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring
into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
> > >
> > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> > > a fuse.
> >
> >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
> >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I
> >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of
> >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of
> >money. =)
>
> I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built
> in?
Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate breakers.
I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because I'm not
sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =)
LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself with a small
board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather have something
molded and professionally made.
> >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
> >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts
> >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and
> >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you
> >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded
> >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try
> >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid
> >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload
> >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with
> >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more
> >information available is often nice.
>
> Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate
> fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits?
> Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse
> is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in
> won't blow too?
Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just gave me
another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one, fuel pressure
alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has blown and thus
one of the pumps is offline.
> >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
> >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the
> >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so
> >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is
> >all I can do.
>
> Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring
> into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . .
Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do that. =)
Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here, but I like to
be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a decision. For me, that
means months of discussion and thinking before I made a decision. I yam what
I yam.
Regards,
Curious Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
> LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it
myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd
rather have something molded and professionally made.
>
Just a warning about putting anything (like an LED) across where the fuse
goes: I have a friend who put grain of wheat bulbs parallel to the fuse
connections. The theory was that if a fuse blew, he would know which one it
was, because the light would come on. The problem? I had pulled the fuse
to work on something (which would usually disconnect the item). There was
enough residual current flowing through the bulb to the circuit to zap me a
bit.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Robinson" <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs
>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> > > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
> > > >
> > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> > > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> > > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> > > > a fuse.
> > >
> > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
> > >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I
> > >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of
> > >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of
> > >money. =)
> >
> > I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built
> > in?
>
> Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate
breakers. I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because
I'm not sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =)
>
> LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself
with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather
have something molded and professionally made.
>
> > >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
> > >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts
> > >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and
> > >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you
> > >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded
> > >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try
> > >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid
> > >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload
> > >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with
> > >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more
> > >information available is often nice.
> >
> > Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate
> > fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits?
> > Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse
> > is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in
> > won't blow too?
>
> Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just
gave me another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one,
fuel pressure alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has
blown and thus one of the pumps is offline.
>
> > >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
> > >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the
> > >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so
> > >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is
> > >all I can do.
> >
> > Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring
> > into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . .
>
> Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do
that. =) Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here,
but I like to be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a
decision. For me, that means months of discussion and thinking before I made
a decision. I yam what I yam.
>
> Regards,
> Curious Chad
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
> >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying
> >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I
> >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS
> >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
> >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
> >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
>
> Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
>comfortable
> completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only
> part of
> the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can
> take that particular piece of equipment down.
>
I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I
realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be
mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2
alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1)
the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight
considerably less than another battery.
> >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together,
> >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them
> >if they should become psychotic.
>
> Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component
> failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around
> that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures,
> rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably
> the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine
> driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths
> between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level
> of dependability.
>
> Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
> the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
> for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
> you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
> present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
> if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
> managed.
>
OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures
can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in my
car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced
alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when
trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever
they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10
volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I
have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect
would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was
the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the
battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about nothing?
> May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
> shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
> instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
> platform completed and debugged before you begin to
> add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
> depend.
I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In
practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make
extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it
difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything
up with epoxy.
Dave Morris
Dragonly N55UP under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic(at)starband.net> |
| Subject: | Mounting Ground Bus |
Where is your book sold, Bob? I'd like to get a copy.
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus
>
>Bob,
>
>I have your AeroConnection Book and monitor this list. Lots of great info
>from both sources... However, I still am a bit confused about how to
>mount the Ground Bus to a metal firewall in an all metal airplane (RV-7A).
>
>Does the ground bus mount DIRECTLY to the firewall or is it mounted on
>stand-offs? If it is mounted directly to the firewall, how is running all
>the ground wires to local ground connections any different than going to
>the Ground Bus? I must be missing something simple here.
It mounts right on the firewall. Check out the chapter on noise
and in particular, "ground loops". It's important that all panel
and/or engine compartment stuff come to the single point ground
on firewall. Remove any jumpers that might exist across engine
mount isolators. Ground crankcase to firewall bus stud with
beefy jumper strap. Take battery (-) to ground stud on firewall.
There are a few non-victim/non-antagonist components that
can ground locally. Lamps in wings and tail, pitot heat, & strobe
power supply.
Bob . . .
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mounting Ground Bus |
I'll reply for Bob. Go to
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html You can order it
directly from him.
If you want to call him or use snail mail:
The AeroElectric Connection
6936 Bainbridge Road
Wichita, KS 67226-1008
Fax/Phone: 316-685-8617
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic(at)starband.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus
>
> Where is your book sold, Bob? I'd like to get a copy.
> brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L.
> Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >I have your AeroConnection Book and monitor this list. Lots of great
info
> >from both sources... However, I still am a bit confused about how to
> >mount the Ground Bus to a metal firewall in an all metal airplane
(RV-7A).
> >
> >Does the ground bus mount DIRECTLY to the firewall or is it mounted on
> >stand-offs? If it is mounted directly to the firewall, how is running
all
> >the ground wires to local ground connections any different than going to
> >the Ground Bus? I must be missing something simple here.
>
> It mounts right on the firewall. Check out the chapter on noise
> and in particular, "ground loops". It's important that all panel
> and/or engine compartment stuff come to the single point ground
> on firewall. Remove any jumpers that might exist across engine
> mount isolators. Ground crankcase to firewall bus stud with
> beefy jumper strap. Take battery (-) to ground stud on firewall.
>
> There are a few non-victim/non-antagonist components that
> can ground locally. Lamps in wings and tail, pitot heat, & strobe
> power supply.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
> ---
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | Source of Toroid Baluns |
Hi all,
Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna
coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them
at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the
little things.
Thanks!
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Looking for an installer, central CA |
Anyone have a referral for an avionics installer to work on a certified
airplane (Super Viking) in range of central California, that will install
things not purchased through him?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of Toroid Baluns |
>
>Hi all,
>
>Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna
>coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them
>at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the
>little things.
>
>Thanks!
The toroidal cores slipped over the coax feedline
of some popular antenna designs adds no measurable
improvement of performance vis-a-vis leaving them
off entirely. I saw this demonstrated in an antenna
lab on two different occasions. Just tie the coax
center and shield to the two halves of a diple and
drive on without the toroids. The antenna will work
just fine.
Cessna did this for a lot of years.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
Hi Dave,
I'm sitting around trying to organize what I've read in Bob's book & at the
seminar last weekend, and writing a reply to your posting is the means I'm
using to etch the concepts in my mind.
If you don't have it, I highly urge you buy Bob's book, The Aero-Electric
Connection (which can be ordered directly from him at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/ . It has the reasoning behind each of the
decisions that Bob recommends. No, I don't get anything for shilling for
him. I think it's worth every penny.
Included in the book is a discussion of batteries and the reasons for using
a RGB (Re-Combiant Gas) battery, as well as how to make sure that it will
perform up to its capabilities. (The main one is to change it every other
year). The RGB battery has a much lower internal resistance than the
traditional lead-acid battery in your car. That means that it is able to
deliver the current needed for starting at a lower voltage than your car
battery. The RGB battery also has a much lower self-discharge rate than
your car battery, so it can sit unused for a longer period of time. It also
has no need for venting and even if it does vent (because of overheating),
no acids or hydrogen come out. As I remember it, RGB batteries are also
lighter. You have little worry about corrosion on terminals, because there
are no corrosive gasses to given off. Corrosion on the terminals and wires
to the batteries that comes from the batteries themselves often contribute
to or even cause the killing of car batteries.
In the book, (especially Chapter 17) Bob goes into the reasoning behind the
architectures of the wiring diagrams. The previous chapters cover the
different components of aircraft electrical systems. He has changed one
term from the book. Instead of calling the bus that has to keep working the
"essential bus," he now calls it the "endurance bus." What goes on that bus
is what you need to continue to fly for a certain period (endurance) after
alternator failure.
In the simplest form, the generator or alternator powers the main bus, and
current flows from the main bus to the endurance bus and to the battery.
There is a diode between the main and endurance bus which allows the main
bus to power the essential bus, but preventsthe opposite. If the generator
fails, the voltage of the bus drops enough to turn on the low voltage light.
A switch is thrown to connect the battery directly to the endurance bus, and
then the battery contactor is shut off (saving the load of the contactor).
That unloads anything unnecessary from the battery. Electronic ignition and
your RMI MicroEncoder go on endurance bus.
My question to you is, are you planning on flying IFR? (Personally, I
consider night flying nearly the equivalent).
If I was to build your plane, I would have 2 batteries. The second battery
would be dedicated to ignition and the MicroEncoder. I'm wondering if a
Quickie can be flown like most planes in a VFR environment without an
airspeed indicator, so is the MicroEncoder absolutely necessary if you're
flying VFR? (The second battery can be smaller than the main battery, and
sized so that it will power the ignition and MicroEncoder for a given period
of time after total alternator failure). That way, if I was flying at
night, and on landing threw on the landing light, (who said I was smart),
the landing light would not be drawing any power from the second battery
that only powers the endurance bus. The light might not work, but at least
the plane would keep flying.
O.K., I have the same experience with alternators and batteries in
automobiles. Alternators far outlast batteries in cars for me. The problem
is that many alternators are not self exciting. If a load spike draws the
voltage down below a certain level, the alternator quits working. That was
not a problem with generators. They are self-exciting, but the engine must
be running much faster than idle to provide charging capability. On your
car, (that has an alternator) if you remove the battery after your engine is
running, it will probably continue to run. If you flip on your turn
indicators, especially the older type that use relays, the load will cause
your engine to die. On the other hand, I once drove a car with points fired
ignition (which uses more electricity than the modern solid state kind) from
Iowa to California without an alternator. I only drove during the day, and
every night I found a stop where I could charge the battery overnight. I
was ferrying the car, and I didn't want to get involved with replacing the
alternator. Luckily, I only had to use the windshield wipers occasionally,
(which uses a lot of juice) and it was a stick shift so I didn't have to use
the starter after the first start in the morning because I would find a hill
or slight slope so I could push start it during the day.
With a generator (self-exciting), and a dead battery, if you throttled back
to a point well above idle, the voltage would probably drop to the point
that you couldn't power the ignition.
Testing the battery when new and at intervals will tell you what it's
capacity is, but it's easier to change it periodically to keep your battery
fresh. When you know how many watt hours are in the battery when the
charging quits and know the load placed on the endurance bus, you will know
how long you can fly before the motor quits for lack of electricity.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Morris" <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A new Z-figure drawing?
>
>
> > >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and
studying
> > >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy,
I
> > >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs,
EFIS
> > >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
> > >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
> > >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
> >
> > Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
> >comfortable
> > completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only
> > part of
> > the equation. There are any number of single component failures that
can
> > take that particular piece of equipment down.
> >
>
> I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
> fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
> MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
> magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
> off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I
> realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be
> mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2
> alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1)
> the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight
> considerably less than another battery.
>
>
> > >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery
together,
> > >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of
them
> > >if they should become psychotic.
> >
> > Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component
> > failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works
around
> > that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures,
> > rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is
probably
> > the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two
engine
> > driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent
feedpaths
> > between engine driven power sources and the battery add another
level
> > of dependability.
> >
> > Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
> > the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
> > for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
> > you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
> > present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
> > if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
> > managed.
> >
>
> OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures
> can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in
my
> car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced
> alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when
> trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever
> they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10
> volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I
> have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect
> would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was
> the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the
> battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about
nothing?
>
>
> > May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
> > shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
> > instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
> > platform completed and debugged before you begin to
> > add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
> > depend.
>
> I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In
> practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make
> extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it
> difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything
> up with epoxy.
>
> Dave Morris
> Dragonly N55UP under construction
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Gibson" <bgibson(at)scientech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
This is my first post to this list (just joined Friday), but I wanted to
offer the following suggestion:
If you are doing this to simplify charging the battery, why not consider a
"ground service plug" which you could install near the battery, with a flush
door, adjacent to the battery? That way, you would eliminate the long cable
run, and have a service plug which could be accommodated at FBOs around the
country.
I'm a Grumman Traveler owner, and several of the later model (post 75)
Grummans had such a plug located on the battery frame (the battery in the
Grummans is firewall forward), with a flush door that opens for connection
to the service plug. I can look up the part numbers next time I go out to
the hangar.
Bob Gibson
AA5 - N5826L
Clearwater Airpark (CLW)
Mobile 727.644.8361
Web www.geocities.com/n5826l
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess(at)shl.bfh.ch> |
| Subject: | Shielded wire for special use |
For different reasons I'd like to use one conductor AWG20 shielded wire to power
interior lights and some electronic devices with power consumptions of less
than 1 Amp. Is this a problem if I use the center conductor for power (+) and
the shield for ground (-)?
The instructions for my radio (UPS SL30) say that the wires to the PTT buttons
should be twisted. Is one conductor shielded wire a suitable alternative for a
pair of twisted wires for the PTT buttons? Any drawbacks?
Thanks to Bob and all the other specialists for their advice!
Alfred Buess
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Source of Toroid Baluns |
I agree with Bob. I'm a ham operator with a lot of years of antenna
experimentation. Slipping a toroid over a coax cable should have no effect
by design. The whole point of coaxial cable is to make the feedline as
immune as possible to outside influences and to permit the length to be
independent of the antenna's design frequency.
But Jon, since you have a Q, you might want to look at my full wavelength
loop for composite aircraft. It's at
http://www.davemorris.com/dave/morrisdfloop.html and there should be a spot
in the tailcone where the diameter fits the design length of the wire
loop. This antenna won't work in a metal airplane.
Dave Morris
Dragonfly N55UP under construction
>
>
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna
> >coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them
> >at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the
> >little things.
> >
> >Thanks!
>
> The toroidal cores slipped over the coax feedline
> of some popular antenna designs adds no measurable
> improvement of performance vis-a-vis leaving them
> off entirely. I saw this demonstrated in an antenna
> lab on two different occasions. Just tie the coax
> center and shield to the two halves of a diple and
> drive on without the toroids. The antenna will work
> just fine.
>
> Cessna did this for a lot of years.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Milner" <tldrgred(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | noise from strobes |
I have a whooping noise in my headsets witch is louder on the ground. In flight
it`s barely noticable except for who receives my transmissions. Where to start?
Red Milner RV-4 79KM
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Source of Toroid Baluns |
| From: | "David Chalmers" <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com> |
Jon, if you still decide to install Baluns I have several left over from my antenna
install that I can send you.
Dave Chalmers
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Finley [mailto:jon(at)finleyweb.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source of Toroid Baluns
Hi all,
Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna
coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them
at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the
little things.
Thanks!
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 low voltage warning revisited |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
> Just when I thought I had it, I was ambushed. I had wondered
> about the
>need for a low voltage warning light if running on SD-8 back up alternator
>and you responded it wasn't really necessary if I designed my E bus
>properly, but if I wanted to monitor it I could either hook up my voltmeter
>to my E bus or use one of your AEC 9005 warning lights. I decided to plan
>on hooking my ACS-2000 voltmeter display to my E bus and set the parameter
>to warn me of low voltage. Problem solved until I discovered that the B&C
>PM/OV kit #504-1 comes with a low voltage warning light, but it is set to
>light for overvoltage (I assume when the breaker trips) or if the alt switch
>is left off (I have learned there is no field on a pm alt & if the rpm is
>sufficient, it is always on).
that light is wired like Figure Z-16 to the normally closed
contacts of the alternator disconnect relay. If the COMmon
contact is wire to bus as shown, the light will illuminate
when the relay is relaxed. This happens when the alternator
switch is OFF or the breaker pulled, or breaker popped due
to OV condition. This light WILL NOT annunciate alternator
failure that produces a low voltage. If you plan active
notification of LOW VOLTAGE on the e-bus for SD-8 operations,
then you'll need to add the circuitry I cited earlier.
> So, do I just leave out the light, or can I
>benefit from it (might be a nice backup) by maybe wiring it through a 2 pole
>alt switch? Many thanks. Scott
Leave the light out, run the voltmeter from the e-bus
as you described and set any alarm function it may offer at
13.0 volts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: noise from strobes |
>
>I have a whooping noise in my headsets witch is louder on the ground. In
>flight it`s barely noticable except for who receives my transmissions.
>Where to start?
First, run strobes from a pair of 6v lantern batteries
by powering it up right at the strobe supply. If noise
goes away, this says that the noise is CONDUCTED on the
+14v power line coming out of the strobe supply. You can
try a filter of the variety shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/filter.html
A simpler alternative is to mount a fat capacitor like
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s251_3.jpg
next to the power supply and wire it across the incoming power
(observe polarity). These caps can be ordered from B&C
at http://www.bandc.biz or call 316.283.8000
This will take a bit of cut-n-try but it IS a problem
that can be cured.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
>
>
> > >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying
> > >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I
> > >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS
> > >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
> > >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
> > >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
> >
> > Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
> >comfortable
> > completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only
> > part of
> > the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can
> > take that particular piece of equipment down.
> >
>
>I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
>fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
>MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
>magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
>off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I
>realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be
>mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2
>alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1)
>the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight
>considerably less than another battery.
Okay, these are important points to the failure mode effects analysis
(FMEA). It's a toss-up for reliability on 1-bat/two-alt versus 2-bat/1-alt
architectures. Batteries well maintained are very dependable but they
DO require yearly expenditure of $time$.
> >
> > Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
> > the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
> > for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
> > you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
> > present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
> > if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
> > managed.
> >
>
>OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures
>can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in my
>car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced
>alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when
>trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever
>they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10
>volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I
>have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect
>would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was
>the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the
>battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about nothing?
RG batteries do not suffer from shorted cells (there's a physical
barrier glass mat between plates) . . . further, only batteries
pressed long beyond useable service life will short.
I think a Figure Z-11 with Z-30 battery added on would provide
a very robust system. Yearly roll-over of main battery to aux
battery with aux battery rotated out at end of two years will
offer failure free battery performance with guaranteed capacity
levels. You can buy 17 a.h. RG batteries for as low as $45 over
the counter. In spite of weight penalty (15# battery versus 4#
alternator) I think this would be the easiest to implement
but I'd be equally comfortable with a Z-13 and one 17 a.h.
battery (changed out every two years max).
> > May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
> > shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
> > instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
> > platform completed and debugged before you begin to
> > add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
> > depend.
>
>I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In
>practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make
>extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it
>difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything
>up with epoxy.
Sure, plan ahead for stuff that takes hammers, saws and axes
to change . . . but the panel should be plug-n-play stuff.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> rectifier/regulator ? |
| Subject: | Re: Future replacement for Rotax |
rectifier/regulator ?
rectifier/regulator ?
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>This is to let you know that a fellow pilot and electrics researcher is
>willing to undertake the design of a more modern rectifier/regulator for the
>Rotax 912/914 PM alternator. He is talking about switching and chopping and
>low heat.
>We happily offered to flight test the future design.
>We just spent the afternoon sorting out the schematics of the present
>regulator. I passed him a stator and rotor to allow for basic measurements
>and components dimensioning.
I've considered this approach for years . . . the pot's just too far back
on the stove to stir. If he'd like to collaborate, I'll offer a sounding
board for ideas and hawk the product for him here on the AEC site if
the result is suitably impressive.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Z-13 discussion continued |
Hi Bob,
In actuality my E bus continuous load design is up to about 6A, with
intermittent full load possibly 12A during transmit, autopilot servos
working, and panel lights on, which should be well within the capability of
the SD-8, fuel, and reserve battery power.
I understand the E bus purpose, how to hook it up, and basically how it
works. What I am still not totally clear on is how the whole electrical
system interacts. Here are my questions in a different form. (I'm not
saying I would do this but I would like to know the dynamics of what is
happening electrically).
1) If I have an SD-8 putting out 10A, and my load is 10A, will my B lead
ammeter read 10A & my E bus voltmeter read around 14 volts?
2) For my educational purposes only, if I switched on my battery contactor
& switched on a 10A additional load, I presume my ammeter would still read
10A SD-8 output, but would my voltmeter initially read the same 14 volts and
then start decreasing as time goes on, or does it immediately go to 12.5 v?
3) What is the lowest voltage that can be reached before typical devices
start to fail?
4) Would the SD-8 trip its breaker or smoke its current limiter from being
overworked?
Thank you! Scott RV7A
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 questions
>
>
>Bob,
>Just finished reviewing the Z-13 archives again and found answers to a
bunch
>of my questions. A great resource--Thank you! A couple questions
>outstanding:
>
>1) Found this question but couldn't find your response: How about hooking
>the main alt field switch to the battery bus in case the battery contactor
>fails? The alternator would then remain on line and continue to power the
>main bus.
If the battery contactor opens, battery voltage would fall and
the regulator would full-field the alternator producing a voltage
runaway condition.
>Assuming the alternator would be unstable without a battery, could you
close
>the E bus aux feed switch and backfeed the battery through the diode? I
>believe I read in one of the archives that the fuselink is located at the E
>bus in case of backfeed.
>2) To help me better understand the E bus operation, I would like to pose
a
>hypothetical situation. If I have an SD-8 back up alternator, and my E bus
>load is set up for a hypothetical 20A (it will actually be about 6A typical
>to 12A max), and I have my ACS 2002 voltmeter hooked to the E bus, and my
>ACS hall amp sensor around the SD-8 "B" lead, and I have a low voltage
>warning light installed on the backup circuit, would you mind outlining
what
>I will see and/or read from the point when I close the aux feed switch
until
>my E bus devices fail?
I don't understand the question. Why would the e-bus devices fail?
The goals of Z-13 design are to supply dual pathways and dual engine
driven power sources for the e-bus that are on TOP of the battery
as a last ditch power source. For the most part, we've said that
multiple failures on any single tank of gas are so remote as to
be insignificant for consideration in our design. Is the "12A max"
load a continuous load you intend to support while en route? All
you have to do is get this down to 10A and you're 100% covered by
the SD-8. So before you really have to sweat, you have to loose
both alternators and then you still have a well-maintained,
RG battery to get you down. A yeary-fresh 17 a.h. battery is
1-hour plus endurance and I have to believe you can get your
endurance loads lower than 10A.
Bob . . .
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 discussion continued |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>In actuality my E bus continuous load design is up to about 6A, with
>intermittent full load possibly 12A during transmit, autopilot servos
>working, and panel lights on, which should be well within the capability of
>the SD-8, fuel, and reserve battery power.
>
>I understand the E bus purpose, how to hook it up, and basically how it
>works. What I am still not totally clear on is how the whole electrical
>system interacts. Here are my questions in a different form. (I'm not
>saying I would do this but I would like to know the dynamics of what is
>happening electrically).
>
>1) If I have an SD-8 putting out 10A, and my load is 10A, will my B lead
>ammeter read 10A & my E bus voltmeter read around 14 volts?
Yes, sorta . . . you can load the SD-8 until the bus sags to something
on the order of 12.5 to 12.8 volts without taxing the battery. This is
the neat thing about lead acid batteries, they take 14.0 to charge
but deliver energy at 12.5 and below. The SD-8 has to be called an
8A machine to run goodies -AND- charge a battery. But as a backup
it only needs to PROTECT the battery so it will support heavier loads
than 8A . . .
>2) For my educational purposes only, if I switched on my battery contactor
>& switched on a 10A additional load, I presume my ammeter would still read
>10A SD-8 output, but would my voltmeter initially read the same 14 volts and
>then start decreasing as time goes on, or does it immediately go to 12.5 v?
As you add load, the voltmeter will creep down until the battery begins to
help. For example, if you put a 20A load on, I would expect the system to
drop somewhere around 12.5 volts with and the SD-8 shouldering perhaps
11-12A of the total and the rest coming from the battery.
>3) What is the lowest voltage that can be reached before typical devices
>start to fail?
?DO-160 calls for usable performance down to 9.0 volts. Folks
who design things to work in the real world will honor this
suggestion. Batteries are 95% gone at 10.5 volts . . . so there's
plenty of headroom between total loss of operation and the point
where operational limits are inconsequential 'cause your outta juice.
>4) Would the SD-8 trip its breaker or smoke its current limiter from being
>overworked?
No. Continuous operation in the "overworked" state puts the
regulator at risk. I'd heat sink that puppy or use a more robust
regulator (like the KeyWest regulator for Rotax 18A machines).
B&C used to sell a heavy duty regulator but I don't see it on
their website any more. Gilles over in France has a friend considering
a new, low-loss design for Rotax that would run stone cold on an
SD-8. The best thing to do is get steady state e-bus loads down
to 8A or less until cleared to land. Then, with a fully charged
battery held in reserve, pile it on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
>
> >I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
> >fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
> >MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
> >magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
> >off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider.
I missed a point in my earlier reply to this thread. I wasn't
suggesting that you were making too much of electrical system
importance. The point was to get some discussion about what's
going to back up the systems you've deemed essential enough
to require multiple power sources. A dozen power sources
won't help if the MicroEncoder goes belly up. Back-up of
needful things is as important as keeping needful things
happy with power.
That's the thing about steam gages . . . they're
independent of each other and relatively dependable to boot.
I've never suffered gross failure of any instruments in the
pitot-static system . . . and loss of one gage doesn't take
them all down. Now you wrap all those functions about one
micro-controller. You have to (1) figure out how pilotage
and skills make ALL those things less needful or (2) have
Plan-B in place should it become necessary to use it.
Now, suppose you find that your hand-held GPS altitude
readout (after level flight cruise for several minutes)
reads quite closely to altimeter readings and you find
further that with certain power settings and trimmed for
level flight insures your operation well within comfortable
bounds for airspeed. Hmmmm . . . can you deduce a modus
operandi where a descent to landing can be made with some
degree of comfort if the MicroEncoder decides to go on
strike? If yes, then you have Plan-B and the MicroEncoder
has just been dethroned as "critical". If no, the perhaps
some 2" steam gages tucked into the corner (even if non-
sensitive) might provide an alternative plan-B.
What ever the plan-B turns out to be, the goal is
to drive "criticality" of equipment under plan-A down
such that you've crafted a failure tolerant system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Charles Becker" <ctbecker(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 discussion continued |
I a new RV8A builder and have been following the list serv for a while. I
am not clear about the references to Z-13 etc. Where are they located? Is
it a book you published? It will be a while until I get that far, but it is
never too early to begin to fully understand the electrical system.
Charles Becker
N474CB - RV8A
Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
>
>
>
> >
> > >I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
> > >fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
> > >MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
> > >magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
> > >off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider.
>
>
> I missed a point in my earlier reply to this thread. I wasn't
> suggesting that you were making too much of electrical system
> importance. The point was to get some discussion about what's
> going to back up the systems you've deemed essential enough
> to require multiple power sources. A dozen power sources
> won't help if the MicroEncoder goes belly up. Back-up of
> needful things is as important as keeping needful things
> happy with power.
>
> That's the thing about steam gages . . . they're
> independent of each other and relatively dependable to boot.
> I've never suffered gross failure of any instruments in the
> pitot-static system . . . and loss of one gage doesn't take
> them all down. Now you wrap all those functions about one
> micro-controller. You have to (1) figure out how pilotage
> and skills make ALL those things less needful or (2) have
> Plan-B in place should it become necessary to use it.
>
> Now, suppose you find that your hand-held GPS altitude
> readout (after level flight cruise for several minutes)
> reads quite closely to altimeter readings and you find
> further that with certain power settings and trimmed for
> level flight insures your operation well within comfortable
> bounds for airspeed. Hmmmm . . . can you deduce a modus
> operandi where a descent to landing can be made with some
> degree of comfort if the MicroEncoder decides to go on
> strike? If yes, then you have Plan-B and the MicroEncoder
> has just been dethroned as "critical". If no, the perhaps
> some 2" steam gages tucked into the corner (even if non-
> sensitive) might provide an alternative plan-B.
>
> What ever the plan-B turns out to be, the goal is
> to drive "criticality" of equipment under plan-A down
> such that you've crafted a failure tolerant system.
Yes, I see what you're talking about. The glass cockpit I've created takes
both RMI MicroEncoder and also GPS inputs and displays them as aircraft
instruments on a tablet computer LCD display. If the MicroEncoder quits
sending airspeed, then the software switches to using the GPS ground speed
instead, and makes an appropriate indication to that effect on the
display. Similarly, if the magnetic compass of the MicroEncoder goes
south, it displays GPS ground track instead. I don't have enough
experience with GPS altitude indications to know if I'll use the GPS
altitude as a backup or not. But your point is well taken, and I did a
similar analysis when I designed my fuel system, to make sure there was a
Plan B for every Plan A failure.
Dave Morris
Dragonfly N55UP under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
>
>
> >OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures
> >can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in my
> >car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced
> >alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when
> >trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever
> >they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10
> >volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I
> >have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect
> >would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was
> >the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the
> >battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about
> nothing?
>
> RG batteries do not suffer from shorted cells (there's a physical
> barrier glass mat between plates) . . . further, only batteries
> pressed long beyond useable service life will short.
>
> I think a Figure Z-11 with Z-30 battery added on would provide
> a very robust system. Yearly roll-over of main battery to aux
> battery with aux battery rotated out at end of two years will
> offer failure free battery performance with guaranteed capacity
> levels. You can buy 17 a.h. RG batteries for as low as $45 over
> the counter. In spite of weight penalty (15# battery versus 4#
> alternator) I think this would be the easiest to implement
> but I'd be equally comfortable with a Z-13 and one 17 a.h.
> battery (changed out every two years max).
Yes, Z-11 and Z-30 look like they would work well. It looks like in Z-30
you have opted to have two separate battery buses in lieu of just tying the
two batteries together. I seem to remember reading your article on battery
isolators a while back and thinking that you preferred to just parallel the
batteries. I think the 2 buses requires one to make a choice at
design-time of which loads are more critical than others, whereas just
linking them together requires one to make that choice in flight and
manually switch off loads to match the remaining battery capacity. Is that
a correct interpretation?
> > > May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
> > > shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
> > > instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
> > > platform completed and debugged before you begin to
> > > add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
> > > depend.
> >
> >I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In
> >practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make
> >extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it
> >difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything
> >up with epoxy.
>
> Sure, plan ahead for stuff that takes hammers, saws and axes
> to change . . . but the panel should be plug-n-play stuff.
Yeah, I agree with that, and I've put some access doors in places that
other Dragonfly airplanes don't have them, in order to buy myself more
flexibility.
Dave Morris
Dragonfly N55UP under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 discussion continued |
>
>
>
>I a new RV8A builder and have been following the list serv for a while. I
>am not clear about the references to Z-13 etc. Where are they located? Is
>it a book you published? It will be a while until I get that far, but it is
>never too early to begin to fully understand the electrical system.
You got that right . . . and I can't think of a better place
to start than right here on the AeroElectric-List . . .
Yes, the Z-figures are published in a book I sell but you can
download the latest two updates which include latest version
of appendix Z at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html
and you can buy the whole book at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Cool schematic CAD program |
By the way, Bob, I was the guy that walked up to you at Sullivan and asked
if you knew of any free schematic drawing programs. I had IntelliCAD from
your CDROM and had tried to use it to draw up a schematic of my aircraft
system by modifying one of your Z diagrams. I never did like it very much
as it was not intuitive and had a long learning curve. So I have been on a
quest for a better CAD program for schematics ever since. I've looked at 3
or 4 different free or "very cheap" programs and never was impressed with
any of them.
But last week I found a really sweet program that immediately became my
favorite. It's called DesignWorks Lite, and can be downloaded from
http://www.designworks4.com with a fully functional version. The program
is $39.95 if you register it. (By the way, I have utterly no financial
interest in the program.. I just like it!) I tried it and was immediately
productive, without reading any help screens or manuals. It works the way
other Windows applications do, so it's very intuitive. The screen
background is light. There are scroll bars. It behaves the way a
schematic drawing program should, for instance, once you attach wires to a
component, you can move the component around and the wires stay
attached. It comes with a library of a bunch of symbols, and a symbol
designer that lets you create your own. The only drawback I've found is
that it does not use .DWG files, so you can't load the Z diagrams but have
to re-draw them yourself.
If anybody wants an easy-to-learn schematic diagramming tool that is really
cheap and really good (but not compatible with Bob's CAD files), check out
DesignWorks Lite.
Dave Morris
Dragonfly N55UP under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
| Subject: | Re: Future replacement for Rotax rectifier/regulator |
?
Gilles
What is the problem with the original rectifier/regulator from Rotax?
Lorenz Malmstrm
MCR 4S (#39)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
One word of caution - if you do this, don't EVER connect another battery
to this plug. If the battery on your plane is well-discharged, the other
battery will try to provide a massive current flow and will smoke your
connecting wire.
Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage (setting up shop in Franklin,
Tennessee)
>
>
>Dave,
>I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need
is a
>wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neil Henderson" <neil.mo51(at)btopenworld.com> |
Listers
I'm planning on mounting my GPS antenna on a firewall forward bracket just under
the top surface of the cowl, rather than on the scuttle under the windscreen
or externally. This seems to be a favoured place adopted by many builders. My
question is will this location work satisfactorily with the standard antenna
supplied with a Garmin 196 or is this only appropriate with a powered active
unit. Thanks for your input.
Neil Henderson RV9A nr Aylesbury UK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | F1Rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Cool schematic CAD program |
Just this past week, I downloaded TurboCAD LE, which is free. I've found it easy
to use and fully compatable with AutoCAD files. In about 4 hours, I built
templates for all the electrical symbols on Bob's drawings and I'm in the process
of putting together the wire book for my F1 Rocket. At some point, I'll have
these posted on my web site.
Randy #95
F1 Rocket
http://mywebpages.home.comcast.net/
>
> By the way, Bob, I was the guy that walked up to you at Sullivan and asked
> if you knew of any free schematic drawing programs. I had IntelliCAD from
> your CDROM and had tried to use it to draw up a schematic of my aircraft
> system by modifying one of your Z diagrams. I never did like it very much
> as it was not intuitive and had a long learning curve. So I have been on a
> quest for a better CAD program for schematics ever since. I've looked at 3
> or 4 different free or "very cheap" programs and never was impressed with
> any of them.
>
> But last week I found a really sweet program that immediately became my
> favorite. It's called DesignWorks Lite, and can be downloaded from
> http://www.designworks4.com with a fully functional version. The program
> is $39.95 if you register it. (By the way, I have utterly no financial
> interest in the program.. I just like it!) I tried it and was immediately
> productive, without reading any help screens or manuals. It works the way
> other Windows applications do, so it's very intuitive. The screen
> background is light. There are scroll bars. It behaves the way a
> schematic drawing program should, for instance, once you attach wires to a
> component, you can move the component around and the wires stay
> attached. It comes with a library of a bunch of symbols, and a symbol
> designer that lets you create your own. The only drawback I've found is
> that it does not use .DWG files, so you can't load the Z diagrams but have
> to re-draw them yourself.
>
> If anybody wants an easy-to-learn schematic diagramming tool that is really
> cheap and really good (but not compatible with Bob's CAD files), check out
> DesignWorks Lite.
>
> Dave Morris
> Dragonfly N55UP under construction
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV protection |
> Okay . . . yes, if you have a breaker-switch in the alternator field
> circuit and it appears to open all by itself when you are switching
> other things in the system, it may well be a nuisance trip of the
> OV module. I'm working with another builder on the same issue.
Actually in my case its only a problem when the battery has a VERY low
charge (barely enought to start). Thats when I cannot turn on the ALT once
engine is running. Turn on the ALT first and then start everythings fine.
Turning anything on after the ALT is working, no problem. The only problem
is turning the ALT on after the engine is running and the battery charge is
very low.
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cool schematic CAD program |
> If anybody wants an easy-to-learn schematic diagramming tool that is
really
> cheap and really good (but not compatible with Bob's CAD files), check out
> DesignWorks Lite.
> Dave Morris
Not being able to read Bob's CAD files makes it a dead horse (regardless
of how nice DWlite really is. Redrawing a schematic to make up for this is
unreasonable. After a few programs and a few years everybody swears by their
own spreadsheet, word processor, CAD program. In truth they are almost all
very good, even miracles. I used to work for a company that had a really
terrible clumsy and buggy and limited but HORRIBLY EXPENSIVE system (Cadra).
The drafters (who knew nothing else) would have cut off their toes to keep
it. They also insisted on paper SO BIG that I used a pair of binoculars to
study drawings that easily would have fit on "A" size paper.
Go to Tucows.com and see their giant list of CAD stuff. (The freeware
FreeCAD 8.2 looks good if you want to study mechanical linkages.)
Also check .... http://www.freecad.com/ lots of free stuff for CAD.
My favorite is still DesignCad....if only for the reason when you call their
free tech support you get fast tech help instantly. The line is never busy
because the program is so easy to use. It's very much like AutoCAD but $3000
cheaper. It does 2D or 3D at the push of a button. Cool...............
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
>
>One word of caution - if you do this, don't EVER connect another battery
>to this plug. If the battery on your plane is well-discharged, the other
>battery will try to provide a massive current flow and will smoke your
>connecting wire.
Which is why you put some form of circuit protection in ANY wire
attached to ANY battery for ANY reason.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Listers
>
>I'm planning on mounting my GPS antenna on a firewall forward bracket just
>under the top surface of the cowl, rather than on the scuttle under the
>windscreen or externally. This seems to be a favoured place adopted by
>many builders. My question is will this location work satisfactorily with
>the standard antenna supplied with a Garmin 196 or is this only
>appropriate with a powered active unit. Thanks for your input.
Other folks on the list have personal experience with under-the-fiberglas-
cowl location for GPS antennas and have uniformly reported good results.
If you have a GPS receiver that's compatible with a powered antenna,
I recommend it's use. They're cheap and small. In any case, experience
has suggested that no antenna is at any particular disadvantage when
installed on firewall and under the cowl.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Richard" <steve(at)oasissolutions.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cool schematic CAD program |
DesignCad is not listed?
Steve Richard
steve(at)oasissolutions.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric
M. Jones
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cool schematic CAD program
> If anybody wants an easy-to-learn schematic diagramming tool that is
really
> cheap and really good (but not compatible with Bob's CAD files), check out
> DesignWorks Lite.
> Dave Morris
Not being able to read Bob's CAD files makes it a dead horse (regardless
of how nice DWlite really is. Redrawing a schematic to make up for this is
unreasonable. After a few programs and a few years everybody swears by their
own spreadsheet, word processor, CAD program. In truth they are almost all
very good, even miracles. I used to work for a company that had a really
terrible clumsy and buggy and limited but HORRIBLY EXPENSIVE system (Cadra).
The drafters (who knew nothing else) would have cut off their toes to keep
it. They also insisted on paper SO BIG that I used a pair of binoculars to
study drawings that easily would have fit on "A" size paper.
Go to Tucows.com and see their giant list of CAD stuff. (The freeware
FreeCAD 8.2 looks good if you want to study mechanical linkages.)
Also check .... http://www.freecad.com/ lots of free stuff for CAD.
My favorite is still DesignCad....if only for the reason when you call their
free tech support you get fast tech help instantly. The line is never busy
because the program is so easy to use. It's very much like AutoCAD but $3000
cheaper. It does 2D or 3D at the push of a button. Cool...............
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Danielson" <johnd(at)wlcwyo.com> |
I have a problem that showed up after 165 hours.
I have a Cessna type master switch. I usually flick both switches on
before starting the engine. Lately I have been blowing the alt. field
fuse when starting.
If I leave the alt. switch off, start the engine then turn the alt.
switch on, everything is ok.
Any ideas why this is happening?
John L. Danielson
307-266-2524
johnd(at)wlcwyo.com
WLC, Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> rectifier/regulator ? |
November 03, 2003 - November 17, 2003
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cp