AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ct
December 19, 2003 - January 03, 2004
Hi All,
I would like to see a picture (or explanation) of an RV with Bob's OV module
and relay for the 60A alt that VAN's sell.
Thanks a lot,
Amit, RV-7, wiring.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Audio panel, of sorts... |
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
I'm finally wiring my intercom inputs as described below with a capacitor.
Does it matter which way the capacitor is oriented?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
>Thanks Bob. How would I determine the size for the capacitor?
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
>Larry(at)BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
>2003 - The year of flight!
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net]
>> >
>> >I have 3 or 4 audio signals I need to capture somehow without a
>> >traditional audio panel. For example, nav radio, AOA, traffic
>> >detector, etc. I also have an ol' 4-place NAT intercom.
>> I'm wondering
> >if I can run the audio out from these various devices to the
> otherwise
> >unused MIC pins on the intercom. As an example, passenger 3 will
> >actually be AOA annunciation. Is there any reason why this wouldn't
> >work?
>
> This might work. You want to use a capacitor to couple audio to
> these inputs to keep the microphone DC power on these pins from
> feeding back into or being loaded by the audio sources. Headset
> audio levels are in the same ballpark as microphone levels so
> I'd say the odds are in your favor.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dean May" <deanmay6(at)owc.net> |
| Subject: | electrical wiring |
Bob;
I recently purchased your book "The Aeroelectric Connection" and noticed a
conflict within. In the chapter "Electromagnetic Compatibility" page 16-12, paragraph
three states "... keep fat wires away from skinny wires."
which I assume to mean that the 2 & 4 gauge wires should be in a separate conduit
from the 20 & 22 gauge wires. However, you then state in Appendix Z, Note
5; "Try to run ALL wiring in a single path down one side of the airplane. ...
Use one side for wires, the other for engine controls."
Which is correct?
Thanks
Dean May
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ANL 20n current limiter source |
>
>Was planning to place a final order to collect remaining needs for my
>electrical system and saw that the B&C site doesn't offer ANL 20 current
>limiters. I figured this would be the right one for my #2 alternator, the
>SD-20. If not, would I do harm by substituting an ANL 40?
An ANL40 would be fine there. Alternatively you could use an
automotive in-line fuse holder for a "fat fuse" . . . there is
a line of plastic plug in fuses that are big brothers to the
ATC plastics that fit the fuseblocks. Many automotive stores
stock the Bussman HHX or something similar.
http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/inlinefuseholder.pdf
You can also buy fuses down to 20A for this holder at the same
store . . . I'd put a 30A fuse in it.
>On a similar topic, the information from Continental says that the
>alternator that comes with the engine (IO-550) provides 70 amps. Should I
>order an ANL 60 or an ANL 70 for the primary alternator?
ANL60 from B&C would be fine here. The ANL series limiters
are VERY robust compared to fuses and the potential overload
on an "undersized" limiter is not an issue.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>
>I picked up a used T2000 transponder, but I'm not ready to install yet. Is
>there a good way to test this?
>
>Specifically, my concerns are turning the thing on without an antenna. I
>know transmitters can be damaged without a proper load attached, but I'm
>not sure how a transponder works in regards to transmitting. Does it only
>repond if it's interrogated? Will it receive and interrogation signal
>without an antenna attached?
It won't talk without being interrogated. Why do you need to
turn it on if you don't intend to have an antenna connected
yet?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> internally-regulated alt. |
| Subject: | Re: OV module on RV with 60A |
internally-regulated alt.
internally-regulated alt.
>
>Hi All,
>I would like to see a picture (or explanation) of an RV with Bob's OV module
>and relay for the 60A alt that VAN's sell.
>Thanks a lot,
>Amit, RV-7, wiring.
Not sure I understand your question. Does the alternator
you have come with a built in regulator?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> internally-regulated alt. |
| Subject: | Re: OV module on RV with 60A |
internally-regulated alt.
internally-regulated alt.
>
>Hi All,
>I would like to see a picture (or explanation) of an RV with Bob's OV module
>and relay for the 60A alt that VAN's sell.
>Thanks a lot,
Aha! you did mention this in the subject line. Okay, you can
take any of the Z-figs and modify alternator wiring in accordance
with Z-24 . . .
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Simmons" <ken(at)truckstop.com> |
It is a used unit and I guess I just wanted to make sure it would turn on(I don't
have an antenna yet). I guess the best idea is to go ahead and buy an antenna
and test it that way. I don't think that would cause any problems as long as
it's left in standby. Of course, I'm 50 miles from the nearest radar so I don't
think there would be a problem anyway.
Thanks.
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:30:18 -0600
>
>>
>>Bob,
>>
>>I picked up a used T2000 transponder, but I'm not ready to install yet. Is
>>there a good way to test this?
>>
>>Specifically, my concerns are turning the thing on without an antenna. I
>>know transmitters can be damaged without a proper load attached, but I'm
>>not sure how a transponder works in regards to transmitting. Does it only
>>repond if it's interrogated? Will it receive and interrogation signal
>>without an antenna attached?
>
> It won't talk without being interrogated. Why do you need to
> turn it on if you don't intend to have an antenna connected
> yet?
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim and Lucy <jpollard(at)mnsi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo (not really) intercoms |
I have an installation manual for that intercom in the shop.
I could scan it and email it to you if you still need it.
Jim Pollard
>
>I have a NAT AA80-001 intercom I'm trying to wire to my RV8. It seems
>that this intercom (as well as a few others I've researched) accept
>stereo input -- but have mono output. What's the point of that?! I
>have stereo headsets, jacks, music in, and music source...but mono
>coming out of the intercom. Is this a problem, or should I just tie the
>L and R together at the headset jack and press on?
>
>Also, if anyone has a soft copy of the owners/installation manual for
>the AA80-001, could you forward to me? Thanks.
>
>Thanks.
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
>Larry(at)BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: electrical wiring |
>
>Bob;
>
> I recently purchased your book "The Aeroelectric Connection" and
> noticed a conflict within. In the chapter "Electromagnetic
> Compatibility" page 16-12, paragraph three states "... keep fat wires
> away from skinny wires."
>which I assume to mean that the 2 & 4 gauge wires should be in a separate
>conduit from the 20 & 22 gauge wires. However, you then state in Appendix
>Z, Note 5; "Try to run ALL wiring in a single path down one side of the
>airplane. ... Use one side for wires, the other for engine controls."
I'll mark those paragraphs for clarification. Note
5 is correct. Engine instrumentation and controls,
properly wired, are not particularly vulnerable. Furher,
When all electrons running aft are counterbalanced by
paired electrons running forward in the same bundle,
chances of cross-coupling between systems are nil.
However, running current carrying conductors down
both sides of a canard-pusher has repeatedly
demonstrated a willingness to hose up the magnetic
compass. Hence the recommendation for single
bundle running aft to the engine.
In Section 16, the intent is to suggest
isolation between most vulnerable victims (audio
and avionics) from strongest antagonists (any wires
carrying high power distribution currents like
battery, alternator, bus feeds, pitot heaters,
etc.) These are prophylactic measures. Incorporation
does not guarantee a noise free system nor does
failure to incorporate guarantee problems.
It simply improves your odds and reduces the number
of potential propagation paths to explore should a
noise problem manifest itself.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
>
>
>For those of you with the interest, I posted all the wiring diagrams for
>my F1 Rocket on my web site today. You can get to them off of the F1
>Rocket Project page. You can view them as .PDF files using Adobe Acrobat.
>
>Perhaps you'll find them helpful. I don't have them all there yet as I am
>still undecided on my EFIS and avionics packages.
>
>Let me know if you see something that looks like it will let all the smoke
>out of the wires!!
Randy, thanks for sharing these with the List . . . you've
spent a lot of time putting them together and they're an
excellent example of how to document your system.
On the standby alternator, you'll need to eliminate the "AUX ON"
lamp in series with the BUS feed to SB-1 reglator. Pin 6 is field
supply lead for the alternator and should get a hard connection to
the bus when the switch is closed.
The other lamp is labeled AUX INOP . . . acttally, this light will
illuminate when the aux alternator picks up a load. Normal operations
call for both alternator switches to be ON. Aux alternator voltage
regulator is set about a volt lower than main alternator set point.
When main alternator is doing it's job, aux alternator will simple
relax. If the bus voltage sags (due to main alternator failure) the
aux alternator will come alive. IF system loads exceed rating of
alternator, the light will be flashing. You simply reduce system
loads until the light illuminates steady. If the main alternator
comes back on line, the aux alternator relaxes again and the light
will go out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
| Subject: | "CAT 5" Wire ... |
Bob, (and the rest of the list)
I recently saw (while looking for something else at Best Buy) a wire bundle
with strippers/crimpers that was Cat 5 wiring (but "better" ... don't
remember the exact reason for the claim of "beyond"/"better" etc). But .....
I noticed that it was STRANDED wire. The wire was listed as AWG 24 I think.
Since one of the concerns you mentioned before was that the wire was solid,
maybe this is why it is better.
My question ...
Does this change your view on the potential applicability of this wire for
something like the MAC trim servos (given that it is stranded??
[I understand that the Tefzel stuff is better and one can do whatever one
wishes/ :-) ]
For those interested, the whole thing cost about $99.00 and included a
significant length of wire. (No I do not recall the length).
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Henrique Castro" <henriquerv9(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | VHF INSTALLATION HELP - URGENT!!!! |
Hi all,
I am finishing installing my PM1000II Intercom and a KY97A Tranceiver on my RV9A.
I am a little bit confused here. I have the following connections to finish.
I just would like to receive orientation from who knows this connections to
make sure I am doing nothing wrong.:
PM1000II -> KY97A
Pin#4 - Phone Lo -> PIN E?
Pin#17 - Phone HI -> PIN 5?
Pin#12 - Radio PTT -> PIN 9?
Pin#13 - Mic Lo -> PIN K or J?
Pin#25 - Mic HI -> PIN 8 ?
Any help on this will be very appreciated!!!
Regards
Henrique Castro
henriquerv9(at)hotmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "CAT 5" Wire ... |
Perhaps it was "Cat-5e", which is "certified" to over 500MHz, rather
than the 100MHz needed for Cat-5.
Both are available in stranded or solid; solid is easier to crimp to the
RJ-45 plugs - but it doesn't lay flat and is easy to kink, so it's
mostly used in pre-wired behind-panel installations.
The stranded is a little harder to strip and crimp to the RJ45 plugs,
but it kinks less and lays flatter - definitely preferred for the patch
cable from the computer to the wall outlet, or jumpers on a patch panel.
-John R.
James E. Clark wrote:
>
>Bob, (and the rest of the list)
>
>I recently saw (while looking for something else at Best Buy) a wire bundle
>with strippers/crimpers that was Cat 5 wiring (but "better" ... don't
>remember the exact reason for the claim of "beyond"/"better" etc). But .....
>
>I noticed that it was STRANDED wire. The wire was listed as AWG 24 I think.
>Since one of the concerns you mentioned before was that the wire was solid,
>maybe this is why it is better.
>
>My question ...
>
>Does this change your view on the potential applicability of this wire for
>something like the MAC trim servos (given that it is stranded??
>
>[I understand that the Tefzel stuff is better and one can do whatever one
>wishes/ :-) ]
>
>For those interested, the whole thing cost about $99.00 and included a
>significant length of wire. (No I do not recall the length).
>
>James
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | S704-1 relays for trim? |
Because I altered my plans from having a second small batter to having two
equally-sized batteries, I have a couple extra S704-1 relays. Is there any
reason not to use them for trim relays?
Dan O'Brien
Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: S704-1 relays for trim? |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Dan -
B&C specifically notes that they can be used for trim and flaps. Go for it.
John
> Because I altered my plans from having a second small batter to having
> two equally-sized batteries, I have a couple extra S704-1 relays. Is
> there any reason not to use them for trim relays?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Visio or IntelliCAD? |
Hi,
I'm looking at drawing my electrical system, and
starting with Z13. I'm quite familiar
with Visio, but I don't have any of the needed
symbols. This seems strange, I know, but I've
never done electrical drawings before. Perhaps
they are on the CDs, but I can't find them.
I also installed IntelliCAD, but I'm not sure my
brain is ready to learn yet another drawing application.
Anything more complicated than the original MacDraw gets
me real confused! :-) IntelliCAD looks like massive
overkill for a schematic like this.
Has anyone already re-drawn Z13 or any of the
other AeroElectric Connection drawings with Visio,
so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?
Barring that, can anyone recommend a *simple* drawing
application that can manipulate .dwg files?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
GSM: +41-79-210-3762
FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007
Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | Visio or IntelliCAD? |
Hi Mickey,
Since you already know Visio, I would suggest you use it. I use Visio
for my wiring diagrams, it is the perfect application for this type of
drawing. No, there aren't any Visio symbols/shapes on the CD, I'm
afraid you have to come up with your own.
Bob; This Visio shape topic seems to be a recurring thing, perhaps we
should start submitting our shapes to your for archival on the CD??
For any drawing that requires scale, precision, or dimensioning; I would
use one of the CAD programs (I use IntelliCAD).
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Mickey Coggins
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 7:25 AM
> To: AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Visio or IntelliCAD?
>
>
> -->
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm looking at drawing my electrical system, and
> starting with Z13. I'm quite familiar
> with Visio, but I don't have any of the needed
> symbols. This seems strange, I know, but I've
> never done electrical drawings before. Perhaps
> they are on the CDs, but I can't find them.
>
> I also installed IntelliCAD, but I'm not sure my
> brain is ready to learn yet another drawing application.
> Anything more complicated than the original MacDraw gets me
> real confused! :-) IntelliCAD looks like massive
> overkill for a schematic like this.
>
> Has anyone already re-drawn Z13 or any of the
> other AeroElectric Connection drawings with Visio,
> so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?
>
> Barring that, can anyone recommend a *simple* drawing
> application that can manipulate .dwg files?
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Jurotich <mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Battery Reserve Capacity Tester |
Bob
Due to an excess of laziness, I just bought a new BC100-1 battery from B&C
to replace the 8 year old one that finally died. I cannot find a 120 volts
AC clock to make your battery reserve tester and I would like to start your
test plan. I will be rewiring my RV 6A per Z13 (replacing the VFR panel
with an very competent IFR panel) and plan to follow your instruction to
replace the battery when at 0.5 reserve capacity. Do you sell a kit to
make the tester that includes the clock?
Thanks
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mailto: mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-7021
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Reserve Capacity Tester |
If you hit the thrift stores and garage sales, 120V clocks are out there.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Jurotich" <mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Reserve Capacity Tester
>
> Bob
>
> Due to an excess of laziness, I just bought a new BC100-1 battery from B&C
> to replace the 8 year old one that finally died. I cannot find a 120
volts
> AC clock to make your battery reserve tester and I would like to start
your
> test plan. I will be rewiring my RV 6A per Z13 (replacing the VFR panel
> with an very competent IFR panel) and plan to follow your instruction to
> replace the battery when at 0.5 reserve capacity. Do you sell a kit to
> make the tester that includes the clock?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Matthew M. Jurotich
>
> NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
> JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
>
> m/c : 443
> e-mail mailto: mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov
> phone : 301-286-5919
> fax : 301-286-7021
>
> JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Visio or IntelliCAD? |
I have both AutoCAD and Visio. Visio is able to import a large number
of other formats, including DXF.
I will be doing my wiring design schematics in Visio and, as an
experiment, just tried to do an export/import of drawing Z-13. It
definitely works. Unfortunately, it imports as a single large group.
To use the symbols individually, one would have to ungroup them in Visio
or export the desired symbols individually from AutoCAD. My version of
Visio (4.0b) is fairly old and will not ungroup the entire drawing
(something about running out of memory). If you have a later version of
Visio (that might be able to ungroup the entire drawing), I would be
happy to translate the entire drawing to DXF and email it (them) to you
(or post them on the Matronics site if I can figure it out).
Otherwise, you can wait until I get to my wiring and I will give you
whatever symbols I use :-) .
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
Finishing Fuselage - then the canopy :-( ...
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm looking at drawing my electrical system, and
>starting with Z13. I'm quite familiar
>with Visio, but I don't have any of the needed
>symbols. This seems strange, I know, but I've
>never done electrical drawings before. Perhaps
>they are on the CDs, but I can't find them.
>
>I also installed IntelliCAD, but I'm not sure my
>brain is ready to learn yet another drawing application.
>Anything more complicated than the original MacDraw gets
>me real confused! :-) IntelliCAD looks like massive
>overkill for a schematic like this.
>
>Has anyone already re-drawn Z13 or any of the
>other AeroElectric Connection drawings with Visio,
>so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?
>
>Barring that, can anyone recommend a *simple* drawing
>application that can manipulate .dwg files?
>
>Thanks,
>Mickey
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>GSM: +41-79-210-3762
>FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007
>Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Noisy Turn & Bank |
Listers:
I am having a great deal of noise from my Falcon Turn & Bank. Winds up like the
motor driving the gyro. If i pull the fuse the noise goes silent. It sounds
pretty load ouside the headset, a real screaming wind up. Is this a defective
guage or do I need to work at filtering it. My RV4 is running a two alternator
one battery system modified from Bob's schematics.
Dave
N504RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noisy Turn & Bank |
>
>Listers:
>I am having a great deal of noise from my Falcon Turn & Bank. Winds up
>like the motor driving the gyro. If i pull the fuse the noise goes
>silent. It sounds pretty load ouside the headset, a real screaming wind
>up. Is this a defective guage or do I need to work at filtering it. My
>RV4 is running a two alternator one battery system modified from Bob's
>schematics.
>Dave
>N504RV
You need to deduce the propagation mode for the noise. Radiated
magnetic or conducted electric (or both). Run gyro from 12 lantern
battery and see if noise goes totally away. If so, then the noise
filter described at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/filter.html
If the noise is still there, you'll need to fabricate a magnetic
shield from a strip of galvanized flashing metal . . . width equals
depth of instrument from rear of panel, length should be long enough
to wrap around the instrument about 3 times. Hold in place with
several bands of cable lace or some long, skinny tye-wraps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VHF INSTALLATION HELP - URGENT!!!! |
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I am finishing installing my PM1000II Intercom and a KY97A Tranceiver on
>my RV9A. I am a little bit confused here. I have the following connections
>to finish. I just would like to receive orientation from who knows this
>connections to make sure I am doing nothing wrong.:
>
>PM1000II -> KY97A
>
>Pin#4 - Phone Lo -> PIN E?
>Pin#17 - Phone HI -> PIN 5?
>Pin#12 - Radio PTT -> PIN 9?
>Pin#13 - Mic Lo -> PIN K or J?
>Pin#25 - Mic HI -> PIN 8 ?
>
>Any help on this will be very appreciated!!!
I am mystified by the connections you cited. My data
package on the KY97A:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KY97A.pdf
and the PM1000II Intercom:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/PM1000II_A.pdf
suggest they should be interconnected as
shown in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/PM1000-KY97A.gif
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <beecho(at)beecho.org> |
| Subject: | Noisy Turn & Bank |
Hi David
I had the same problem with the same T&B. I talked ACS into taking it
back even though I had had it for 7 months. My argument was that I had
no way of knowing it was defective until I electrified the panel and
radios. I exchanged it for a more expensive quiet one.
Tom Friedland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Aronson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Noisy Turn & Bank
Listers:
I am having a great deal of noise from my Falcon Turn & Bank. Winds up
like the motor driving the gyro. If i pull the fuse the noise goes
silent. It sounds pretty load ouside the headset, a real screaming wind
up. Is this a defective guage or do I need to work at filtering it. My
RV4 is running a two alternator one battery system modified from Bob's
schematics.
Dave
N504RV
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: "CAT 5" Wire ... |
>The stranded is a little harder to strip and crimp to the RJ45 plugs,
>but it kinks less and lays flatter - definitely preferred for the patch
>cable from the computer to the wall outlet, or jumpers on a patch panel.
I am mystified by this romance with Cat5 computer cable for
use in airplanes. One of many experiences during my first visit to
OSH in '86 prompted me to begin working on the 'Connection . . .
. . . I saw a beautiful Long-Ez wired with a liberal sprinkle
of zip cord, and an assortment of automotive and house wire
held together with plastic electrical tape and "Plastigrip"
terminals and splices.
Premier has a LOT of 24AWG airframe wire in it and the folks
who put it together and maintain this airplane in the field
are less than enthusiastic about it. Even with 19-strand
lay-up (which Cat-5 is not), the stuff is much more prone to
handling and endurance issues than 22AWG.
Just 'cause the trim actuator comes with 24AWG wires in no
way commits one to perpetuate the design error by extending
the conductors with the same size wire, much less with a
non-recommendable material. 22759/16-22 is a VERY fine wire
for this application and you're going to need a bunch of it
anyhow for avionics and instrumentation tasks . . .
If you wouldn't run your Lycoming with Pennzoil, or
re-juice your flooded battery with tap water, why
would you wire your trim actuator with glorified door-bell
wire?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Noisy Turn & Bank |
Tom,
Save me the trouble you experienced, which model did you get in
replacement?
Thanks,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
beecho(at)beecho.org
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Noisy Turn & Bank
Hi David
I had the same problem with the same T&B. I talked ACS into taking it
back even though I had had it for 7 months. My argument was that I had
no way of knowing it was defective until I electrified the panel and
radios. I exchanged it for a more expensive quiet one.
Tom Friedland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Aronson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Noisy Turn & Bank
Listers:
I am having a great deal of noise from my Falcon Turn & Bank. Winds up
like the motor driving the gyro. If i pull the fuse the noise goes
silent. It sounds pretty load ouside the headset, a real screaming wind
up. Is this a defective guage or do I need to work at filtering it. My
RV4 is running a two alternator one battery system modified from Bob's
schematics.
Dave
N504RV
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Visio or IntelliCAD? |
Sent direct
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Visio or IntelliCAD?
>
> I have both AutoCAD and Visio. Visio is able to import a large number
> of other formats, including DXF.
>
> I will be doing my wiring design schematics in Visio and, as an
> experiment, just tried to do an export/import of drawing Z-13. It
> definitely works. Unfortunately, it imports as a single large group.
> To use the symbols individually, one would have to ungroup them in Visio
> or export the desired symbols individually from AutoCAD. My version of
> Visio (4.0b) is fairly old and will not ungroup the entire drawing
> (something about running out of memory). If you have a later version of
> Visio (that might be able to ungroup the entire drawing), I would be
> happy to translate the entire drawing to DXF and email it (them) to you
> (or post them on the Matronics site if I can figure it out).
>
> Otherwise, you can wait until I get to my wiring and I will give you
> whatever symbols I use :-) .
>
> Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
> Finishing Fuselage - then the canopy :-( ...
>
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >I'm looking at drawing my electrical system, and
> >starting with Z13. I'm quite familiar
> >with Visio, but I don't have any of the needed
> >symbols. This seems strange, I know, but I've
> >never done electrical drawings before. Perhaps
> >they are on the CDs, but I can't find them.
> >
> >I also installed IntelliCAD, but I'm not sure my
> >brain is ready to learn yet another drawing application.
> >Anything more complicated than the original MacDraw gets
> >me real confused! :-) IntelliCAD looks like massive
> >overkill for a schematic like this.
> >
> >Has anyone already re-drawn Z13 or any of the
> >other AeroElectric Connection drawings with Visio,
> >so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?
> >
> >Barring that, can anyone recommend a *simple* drawing
> >application that can manipulate .dwg files?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Mickey
> >
> >--
> >Mickey Coggins
> >GSM: +41-79-210-3762
> >FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762
> >http://www.rv8.ch/
> >#82007
> >Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <beecho(at)beecho.org> |
| Subject: | Noisy Turn & Bank |
Jim
I got an ACS p/n 1394T100. I see the price went up a bit since I
received mine about 4 months ago. (Ya sure, there isn't any
inflation...)
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Stone
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Noisy Turn & Bank
Tom,
Save me the trouble you experienced, which model did you get in
replacement?
Thanks,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
beecho(at)beecho.org
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Noisy Turn & Bank
Hi David
I had the same problem with the same T&B. I talked ACS into taking it
back even though I had had it for 7 months. My argument was that I had
no way of knowing it was defective until I electrified the panel and
radios. I exchanged it for a more expensive quiet one.
Tom Friedland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Aronson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Noisy Turn & Bank
Listers:
I am having a great deal of noise from my Falcon Turn & Bank. Winds up
like the motor driving the gyro. If i pull the fuse the noise goes
silent. It sounds pretty load ouside the headset, a real screaming wind
up. Is this a defective guage or do I need to work at filtering it. My
RV4 is running a two alternator one battery system modified from Bob's
schematics.
Dave
N504RV
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Hi Randy,
Thanks for posting your wiring diagrams.
They are Beautiful!
I will be pondering over them to glean what I can for my project.
On your Power Distribution Schematic you show your battery cables twisted.
Reason?
One small thing I noticed on the Power Distribution page. Looks like the
symbol for the battery should be 180 degrees ... long line positive and
short negative ... yes?
Thanks again,
Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>
>I know you prefer the RG-142 or RG-400 over RG-58, but are the benefits
>strong enough if I already have some RG-58 on hand?
Depends on what you call "benefits" . . .
Obviously, RG-58 has a reasonably successful
history that goes back 60 years or more
and there are hundreds of miles of the stuff
still flying.
It's not going to fail to function.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
Is this wiring diagram available to all? If so, where can I download it,
please?
Thanks,
AI Nut
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Available
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> Thanks for posting your wiring diagrams.
> They are Beautiful!
> I will be pondering over them to glean what I can for my project.
>
>
> On your Power Distribution Schematic you show your battery cables twisted.
>
> Reason?
>
>
> One small thing I noticed on the Power Distribution page. Looks like the
> symbol for the battery should be 180 degrees ... long line positive and
> short negative ... yes?
>
> Thanks again,
> Don B.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Milner" <tldrgred(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Strobe noise (in headset) reduced w/capicitor thanks |
to `lectric Bob
I used the S251D479 filter/capacitor (fromB&C) after testing per Bob`s intructions.
The noise is reduced (ATC is happier) and I can`t hear it at all at altitude.
There is a snapping noise (independant of volume on the com.) and I guess
I`ll have to live with it as my wing tip light assemblies are rivetted. I think
I`ll make a couple of those Radio Shack filters as in a previous thread and
experiment?
Thanks again Bob. The whooping noise doesn`t aggravate anymore.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
| Subject: | "CAT 5" Wire ... |
Just for the record, I have no plans to use this wire. Was just "discussing"
what I saw since others had seemingly expressed an interest. And I was
curious. :-)
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 4:10 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: "CAT 5" Wire ...
>
>
> III"
>
>
[snip]
>
> I am mystified by this romance with Cat5 computer cable for
> use in airplanes. One of many experiences during my first visit to
> OSH in '86 prompted me to begin working on the 'Connection . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | "CAT 5" Wire ... |
>
>
>Just for the record, I have no plans to use this wire. Was just "discussing"
>what I saw since others had seemingly expressed an interest. And I was
>curious. :-)
Understand. Wasn't picking on you . . . this thread pops up
from time to time. It flew through the list about a year
ago as I recall. It almost always starts when someone is
wanting to extend the 24AWG wires on a RayAllen servo
with more 24AWG . . . or doesn't want to bundle their
own conductors.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Al,
The original message:
For those of you with the interest, I posted all the wiring diagrams for my
F1 Rocket on my web site today. You can get to them off of the F1 Rocket
Project page. You can view them as .PDF files using Adobe Acrobat.
Perhaps you'll find them helpful. I don't have them all there yet as I am
still undecided on my EFIS and avionics packages.
Let me know if you see something that looks like it will let all the smoke
out of the wires!!
Regards,
Randy #95
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: "CAT 5" Wire ... |
Bob, I long ago committed to avoiding any PVC insulation anywhere in my
airplane (that I could control), and AFAIK even the plenum-grade Cat-5
has a type of PVC (irradiated, I think?) that, although somewhat more
fire retardant, is still not nearly as good as Tefzel...
My response was simply to state that Cat-5 is available in stranded as
well as solid (someone said earlier not to use Cat-5 because it was
solid), and why one might be better than the other in its intended
application... and that the mentioned "Cat5-superior" cable was not
likely superior because it was stranded, but because it was probably
Cat-5e (or even Cat6).
By the way, stranded UTP cable is still fairly easy to kink, certainly
much more so than 22759/Tefzel-insulated wire... I've got 12-ft runs
down a duct through Teflon tubing, and pulling Tefzel through it is
slicker than.... well, slicker than UTP anyway!
-John R.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>The stranded is a little harder to strip and crimp to the RJ45 plugs,
>>but it kinks less and lays flatter - definitely preferred for the patch
>>cable from the computer to the wall outlet, or jumpers on a patch panel.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I am mystified by this romance with Cat5 computer cable for
> use in airplanes. One of many experiences during my first visit to
> OSH in '86 prompted me to begin working on the 'Connection . . .
>
> . . . I saw a beautiful Long-Ez wired with a liberal sprinkle
> of zip cord, and an assortment of automotive and house wire
> held together with plastic electrical tape and "Plastigrip"
> terminals and splices.
>
> Premier has a LOT of 24AWG airframe wire in it and the folks
> who put it together and maintain this airplane in the field
> are less than enthusiastic about it. Even with 19-strand
> lay-up (which Cat-5 is not), the stuff is much more prone to
> handling and endurance issues than 22AWG.
>
> Just 'cause the trim actuator comes with 24AWG wires in no
> way commits one to perpetuate the design error by extending
> the conductors with the same size wire, much less with a
> non-recommendable material. 22759/16-22 is a VERY fine wire
> for this application and you're going to need a bunch of it
> anyhow for avionics and instrumentation tasks . . .
>
> If you wouldn't run your Lycoming with Pennzoil, or
> re-juice your flooded battery with tap water, why
> would you wire your trim actuator with glorified door-bell
> wire?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
I was hoping to find them or others in Visio or other CAD format, not .PDF.
8-)
Thanks,
AI Nut
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Available
>
> Al,
>
> The original message:
>
>
>
> For those of you with the interest, I posted all the wiring diagrams for
my
> F1 Rocket on my web site today. You can get to them off of the F1 Rocket
> Project page. You can view them as .PDF files using Adobe Acrobat.
>
> Perhaps you'll find them helpful. I don't have them all there yet as I am
> still undecided on my EFIS and avionics packages.
>
> Let me know if you see something that looks like it will let all the smoke
> out of the wires!!
>
> Regards,
> Randy #95
> http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | F1Rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
Yes, you are the second reader to catch that. I have fixed and re-posted. Thanks.
I twisted the cables per the "Aeroelectric Connection". I'm not sure it is really
necessary but it won't hurt anything either.
Randy
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> Thanks for posting your wiring diagrams.
> They are Beautiful!
> I will be pondering over them to glean what I can for my project.
>
>
> On your Power Distribution Schematic you show your battery cables twisted.
>
> Reason?
>
>
> One small thing I noticed on the Power Distribution page. Looks like the
> symbol for the battery should be 180 degrees ... long line positive and
> short negative ... yes?
>
> Thanks again,
> Don B.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hunt" <Stephen.Hunt19(at)btinternet.com> |
Hi,
new to the list, about 8 months from first flight RV8 in UK. Three electrical bits
puzzling me and wonder if you can help.
1. Have an IO 360 (injected ) engine. I am supposing that a simple toggle, on/off
will suffice for the fuel pump?
2. My essential bus is to get me on the ground as soon as possible...endurance
not the issue that many people want. We cannot fly IMC or at night in UK with
home build. After 13000 hrs "conditioning" as an airline pilot I do not want to
stay airborne with an unresolved electrical problem....especially when I have
constructed the set up! In UK never far from a landable site.
I want to supply the VHF, Tx Pdr, EFIS Lite(Blue Mountain ) AND Flap motor from
the essential bus, normally via a silicone diode from the main bus. In non normal
mode Flaps would be selected when Visual, clear to Land and committed....if
any pwr left. What size , type of diode do I need for normal operation of
such a system?
3. Any thoughts on best solution to wiring in the ammeter?
Steve Hunt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | F1Rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
Bob,
Thanks for the comments. This now raises a couple of questions. Please see below:
>On the standby alternator, you'll need to eliminate the "AUX ON" lamp in >series
with the BUS feed to SB-1 reglator. Pin 6 is field supply lead for the >alternator
and should get a hard connection to the bus when the switch is >closed.
The other lamp is labeled AUX INOP . . . actually, this light will >illuminate
when the aux alternator picks up a load. Normal operations call for >both
alternator switches to be ON.
Then what is the purpose of the AUX ALT switch? If it is supposed to be on always,
one can always use the AUX C/B to take the Aux alternator off-line.
>Aux alternator voltage regulator is set about a volt lower than main >alternator
set point. When main alternator is doing it's job, aux alternator >will simple
relax. If the bus voltage sags (due to main alternator failure) >the aux
alternator will come alive. IF system loads exceed rating of >alternator, the
light will be flashing. You simply reduce system loads until >the light illuminates
steady. If the main alternator comes back on line, the >aux alternator
relaxes again and the light will go out.
How do I know if the AUX alternator is off line? There doesn't appear to be any
warning light to indicate Battery Only operation. It appears that the Aux light
coming on with a load is a redundant warning since the warning light of the
primary alternator controller should be illuminated. Looks like I might be
able to eliminate the Primary INOP light in this scenario then.
I'm not sure how to wire this up now. I'm thinking I can eliminate the Aux Alternator
switch, the Primary INOP warning light, and the AUX On light. If the
primary alternator goes off line, the AUX warning light will either illuminate
or flash, depending on the load, telling me that the auxiliary alternator is
now carrying the load of the aircraft. If the AUX Alternator goes off line, I
don't know how I'll know unless the engine monitor triggers a low volt warning.
Do I have it correct?
Thanks.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg.Puckett(at)united.com |
| Subject: | Shield termination KCS55A/KI525A |
Hello,
I'm hoping someone can recommend where to attach the shield terminations
for a KI525A HSI. I've seen photo's (cannot find link) that show the
shield terminations attached to the screw on the KI525's connector
strain relief. I'm really not happy with this because the strain relief
is just floating in the slot of the back shell and the back shell itself
is only attached electrically to the connector alignment/keying posts
(still just floating).
Thanks,
Greg Puckett
RV-8 80081 slooooow build
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Greg.Puckett(at)united.com |
| Subject: | KG102 pin out and/or internal P.S. schematic |
Hello,
I need some help with my KCS55A/CNX80 installation. My KI525A has the
HDG bootstrap syncro out and I'd like to utilize it to feed the HDG xyz
in for the CNX80 only. Someone at a local avionics shop told me I do not
have to buy a 26VAC 400HZ inverter that the KG102A has 400HZ 26VAC out
and is just not shown on the KCS55 install docs.
I have the KCS55 install manual and it does not show it. I'm wondering
if anyone has access to a KG102A component Maint. manual. I've been told
the 26vac high out is pin p but I'm not sure what I should use as a
26VAC lo (C). I would like some assurance that driving the primary coil
for the bootstrap in the 525 HSI will not demand too much from the AC
power supply in the remote gyro. I was told just to use case GND for the
(L) side and the shield too. I'm pretty sure the CNX80 ref and xyz
inputs are high impedance but I'm wondering if the primary in the 525A
will draw more than the remote gyro power supply can handle.
Thanks
Greg Puckett
Elizabeth, Colorado
RV8 80081
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Choices, choices, choices . . . |
From time to time, a builder writes to ask, "I got a really
good deal on this kind of wire, can I use it to wire up
my whizzy-giget?" Or, "Why should I go out an buy this
$high$ connector that takes a special tool when this
$low$ connector does the same job and installs with
a soldering iron?" I've been pondering this situation for
the past several days. Indulge me please while
I share some past experiences:
When I was in the 4th or 5th grade, I shared an interest
in model aircraft construction with a cousin about 5 years
my senior. He worked in a hobby shop and I think took much
of his compensation in store stock. His models were
all beautifully crafted and flew well. I recall a
conversation about glue. His personal choice was a product
called Ambroid while my personal preference was for
a less expensive, faster drying Testor's model cement.
As I recall, Ambroid sold for perhaps three or four
times the price of Testors. It also took 12-18 hours
to reach full strength.
When you considered the cost of a kit, cost of engine,
and hours to assemble, and a quest of lowest cost of
ownership (lots of maintenance-free flying), the
difference in $total$ for assembling with Ambroid vs.
Testors was insignificant. He also covered in silk while
I used tissue. I suspect there were additional differences
in our choice materials and techniques wherein I went the
$low$ route . . . but in the final analysis made little
difference in the total cost of our respective
projects.
Perhaps it was a mute point in my case, cousin Calvin's
models usually lived to fly many a mission while my
own were not so fortunate. Had any of his models
survived to the present time, it's a certainty that
they would be the finest examples of model construction
of that era.
Would we build a model that way today? Epoxy wasn't
around then. Nor were any form of composite materials.
You had to shrink coverings to contour with multiple
coats of finish, not with a hot iron. Radio
control was bang-bang, rudder only at wide open throttle,
today it's fully three-axis with trims accessory
control channels + throttle.
I open my seminars with a statement to the effect, "You
folks are building the finest airplanes to have ever
flown." This always raises a few eyebrows, "Wha-da-ya-
mean? I don't know all that much about it."
I can confidently reply, "Yes, and that's why. You
participate on list servers to tap the collective
gray-matter of the OBAM aircraft community. You are
attending this seminar to achieve a higher level of
understanding.
If you break something, it gets replaced. If
a part doesn't work quite right, you rebuild it as
needed until it does. Unlike those new graduates bucking
rivets on an assembly line while dreaming about what they're
going to do after work that evening, YOU are paying attention
to achieving the very best the community knows how to do.
I'll suggest there is more VALUE in a nicely built RV
than ANY spam can irrespective of how nice the paint looks
or what electro-whizzies are bolted to the panel. Finally,
no two OBAM aircraft are built exactly the same way. Certified
airplanes are literally carved into regulatory stone of
conformance, your airplane can freely evolve. OBAM aircraft
are by definition at the leading edge of performance
and value in aviation."
Remember the Jimmy Stewart movie "Flight of the Phoenix"?
The folks trying to assemble a man-rated, flying aircraft
from a pile of salvage were not pleased to discover that
their "designer's" previous experience was limited to building
flying models. It took some time for folks to understand that
basic principals of structures and flight were interchangeable
between the worlds of miniature and full-scale.
I suggest that after you've purchased kit, engine, propeller,
brakes, and a panel full of whippy radios and instruments, impact
on total cost for the-best-we-know-how-to-do versus materials
or tools you discovered at a garage sale or hardware store is
trivial.
My experience at workbench of cousin Calvin stands out my
memory as a benchmark of Calvin's superior sense craftsmanship.
He chose to build in a manner that represented the very
best the model building community knew how to do.
To be sure, few OBAM aircraft builders are going to be using
today's techniques and technologies 20 years from now . . . May I
suggest we should be wary of tools, techniques and materials
popularly used 20 years ago? May I further suggest that it's
not so much a question of "will it work" as opposed to will
it be something you'll look back on 20 years from now as the
best we knew how to do today?
Dee and I offer our best wishes for you and yours for the
upcoming holidays. We're looking forward to meeting many of
you in what promises to be a busy seminar schedule for
next year. It's always enjoyable and gratifying to work with
folks building the finest airplanes to have ever flown.
Bob . . .
P.S. I'd appreciate it if folks would take the time to relay
this note to other list servers . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for the comments. This now raises a couple of questions. Please
>see below:
>
> >On the standby alternator, you'll need to eliminate the "AUX ON" lamp
> in >series with the BUS feed to SB-1 reglator. Pin 6 is field supply lead
> for the >alternator and should get a hard connection to the bus when the
> switch is >closed. The other lamp is labeled AUX INOP . . . actually,
> this light will >illuminate when the aux alternator picks up a load.
> Normal operations call for >both alternator switches to be ON.
>
>Then what is the purpose of the AUX ALT switch? If it is supposed to be
>on always, one can always use the AUX C/B to take the Aux alternator off-line.
You can do that if you wish. This system was crafted mostly to
support adding a capable alternator to an existing system . . .
particularly certified ships. The feds wouldn't look kindly
on using a circuit breaker as a panel control. However, the
C210 installation does in fact use a switch-breaker for the
bus-feed control.
If you eliminate the switch (and the breaker stays normally
closed) the s/b alternator comes up immediately after starting
the engine.
> >Aux alternator voltage regulator is set about a volt lower than
> main >alternator set point. When main alternator is doing it's job, aux
> alternator >will simple relax. If the bus voltage sags (due to main
> alternator failure) >the aux alternator will come alive. IF system loads
> exceed rating of >alternator, the light will be flashing. You simply
> reduce system loads until >the light illuminates steady. If the main
> alternator comes back on line, the >aux alternator relaxes again and the
> light will go out.
>
>How do I know if the AUX alternator is off line?
The "AUX ALT" light will go out if the alternator
is not delivering energy to the system. Further,
voltmeter, loadmeter and/or lv-warning instrumentation
would be expected to supplement the warning lights
supplied with ship's regulators . . .
>There doesn't appear to be any warning light to indicate Battery Only
>operation. It appears that the Aux light coming on with a load is a
>redundant warning since the warning light of the primary alternator
>controller should be illuminated.
The warning light for primary alternator controller is LOW VOLTS.
It will continue to function in that capacity even when the main
alternator is off. If the main alternator is off/failed and
the aux alternator is up, the LOW VOLTS warning light should be
out and the AUX ALT light would be on. If the aux alternator is
off/failed, then the LOW VOLTS light will be flashing.
> Looks like I might be able to eliminate the Primary INOP light in this
> scenario then.
Nope . . .
>I'm not sure how to wire this up now. I'm thinking I can eliminate the
>Aux Alternator switch, the Primary INOP warning light, and the AUX On
>light. If the primary alternator goes off line, the AUX warning light
>will either illuminate or flash, depending on the load, telling me that
>the auxiliary alternator is now carrying the load of the aircraft. If the
>AUX Alternator goes off line, I don't know how I'll know unless the engine
>monitor triggers a low volt warning. Do I have it correct?
If it were my airplane, I'd wire it as described in Z-12. I believe
all the bases for functionality and serviceability have been covered.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | ACS2002 Voltage Selector |
Bob,
I wonder if you could propose a solution for the following:
The ACS2002 engine monitor uses the bus for a power source and also to monitor
bus voltage. If I have the dual electrical system (Z-14), how does one select
main and aux bus voltage without breaking the power source for the monitor?
I assume that I would re-boot the system every time that I changed the voltage
selection via a single pole double throw switch. I am sure there is a better
solution. Thanks for your help.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>Then what is the purpose of the AUX ALT switch? If it is supposed to be
>>on always, one can always use the AUX C/B to take the Aux alternator off-line.
>>
>>
>
> You can do that if you wish. This system was crafted mostly to
> support adding a capable alternator to an existing system . . .
> particularly certified ships. The feds wouldn't look kindly
> on using a circuit breaker as a panel control. However, the
> C210 installation does in fact use a switch-breaker for the
> bus-feed control.
>
>
Hi Bob,
I'm perhaps showing my newbie ignorance here, but why
would the feds have an issue with using a switch-breaker
as a panel control? Isn't that what they are designed for?
-Dj, curious...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
I have always heard that CHT / EGT wires have to be the material provided with
the probes
all the way from the probe to the instrument. Then I heard somewhere (might have
been here)
that you can switch from the "trick" wire coming out of the probe to standard wire
(or use a
rotary switch to step through the cylinders on a single readout gauge) and maintain
acceptable accuracy provided the ambient temperature at the junction was stable
(like inside
the cabin). Is there anything to this? Can I switch to standard wire from the
firewall of
an EZ or put a rotary switch and standard wire between the "trick" wire and the
display?
How much of all this is urban legend .... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | F1Rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
> If you eliminate the switch (and the breaker stays normally
> closed) the s/b alternator comes up immediately after starting
> the engine.
That's okay isn't it? I assumed that you don't mess with the switch during start-up,
but rather just leave it on.
> The warning light for primary alternator controller is LOW VOLTS.
> It will continue to function in that capacity even when the main
> alternator is off. If the main alternator is off/failed and
> the aux alternator is up, the LOW VOLTS warning light should be
> out and the AUX ALT light would be on. If the aux alternator is
> off/failed, then the LOW VOLTS light will be flashing.
>
That was the nugget of information that was missing from my brain. Thanks.
Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
>... No, there aren't any Visio symbols/shapes on the CD, I'm
>afraid you have to come up with your own.
>
>Bob; This Visio shape topic seems to be a recurring thing, perhaps we
>should start submitting our shapes to your for archival on the CD??
That would be great! I also installed the trial version of SmartDraw,
which works pretty much like Visio, and has some nice shapes.
I kind of hate to plunk down another 198 bucks for an application
when all I need are some shapes. It would be nice to ditch Visio,
tho, now that they are part of MS, but if I stumble across a bunch
of shapes that look like Bob's, I'm there.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
GSM: +41-79-210-3762
FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007
Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | ACS2002 Voltage Selector |
I will take a stab at this one:
If you get a capacitor and figure out how much current the unit needs to
"stay Powered" while your momentarily switching it via the switch this would
allow you to monitor both sources.
How big, is really dependant of how much the unit draws and how long the
"break " is in the switch I bet somebody knows how to figure that out better
than I
Hope that helps
Jeff.
Bob,
I wonder if you could propose a solution for the following:
The ACS2002 engine monitor uses the bus for a power source and also to
monitor bus voltage. If I have the dual electrical system (Z-14), how does
one select main and aux bus voltage without breaking the power source for
the monitor? I assume that I would re-boot the system every time that I
changed the voltage selection via a single pole double throw switch. I am
sure there is a better solution. Thanks for your help.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
If the temperature where you make the junction between the thermocouple
wire and the copper wire and the temperature at the instrument that
converts the temperature to a display is the same, then there will be no
error and there is no reason you cannot do this. Any temperature
difference between these two points will be reflected in the reading
accuracy. This inaccuracy may be negligible if it is small and you are
measuring high temperatures (E.G. EGT) especially if you are primarily
trying to match several temperatures or find out which one is highest.
For instance, if you change wire type at the firewall which is 90
degrees while the instrument junction is 70 degrees, your readings will
be off by 20 degrees high. If the temperature is the same there will be
no error.
The way thermocouple wires work is by generating a small voltage (mV)
between the dissimilar metal wires. Every metal junction will generate
a voltage which is dependent on the actual temperature and the
particular metals involved. The instrument that uses the thermocouple
wire input senses the temperature where the thermocouple wires connect
to the instrument and compensates for the voltage generated there -
resulting in a reading of the remote (EGT or CHT) junction. If you add
a length of copper wire between the thermocouple wire and the
instrument, then the instrument will still compensate for the
temperature where the wire connects. Only now, there is no voltage
being generated there since the actual junction is somewhere else. But,
as noted earlier, if the temperatures of the two ends of the copper wire
are similar the compensation will still work.
The same thing applies if you use a switch only there are more junctions
involved.
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
Jim Sower wrote:
>
>I have always heard that CHT / EGT wires have to be the material provided with
the probes
>all the way from the probe to the instrument. Then I heard somewhere (might have
been here)
>that you can switch from the "trick" wire coming out of the probe to standard
wire (or use a
>rotary switch to step through the cylinders on a single readout gauge) and maintain
>acceptable accuracy provided the ambient temperature at the junction was stable
(like inside
>the cabin). Is there anything to this? Can I switch to standard wire from the
firewall of
>an EZ or put a rotary switch and standard wire between the "trick" wire and the
display?
>
>How much of all this is urban legend .... Jim S.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
>
>I have always heard that CHT / EGT wires have to be the material provided
>with the probes
>all the way from the probe to the instrument. Then I heard somewhere
>(might have been here)
>that you can switch from the "trick" wire coming out of the probe to
>standard wire (or use a
>rotary switch to step through the cylinders on a single readout gauge) and
>maintain
>acceptable accuracy provided the ambient temperature at the junction was
>stable (like inside
>the cabin). Is there anything to this? Can I switch to standard wire
>from the firewall of
>an EZ or put a rotary switch and standard wire between the "trick" wire
>and the display?
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember it
correctly):
One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the switch,
then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the switch to the
instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same temperature zone as
the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches are critical to
sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a connection in the sensor
wire, one creates another cold junction.
One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
accuracy to either one.
HTH,
AI Nut
using EGT/CHT per cylinder to feed analog to digital convertor then to
computer, via Analog Devices 594/595 chips.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sower" <canarder(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
>
> I have always heard that CHT / EGT wires have to be the material provided
with the probes
> all the way from the probe to the instrument. Then I heard somewhere
(might have been here)
> that you can switch from the "trick" wire coming out of the probe to
standard wire (or use a
> rotary switch to step through the cylinders on a single readout gauge) and
maintain
> acceptable accuracy provided the ambient temperature at the junction was
stable (like inside
> the cabin). Is there anything to this? Can I switch to standard wire
from the firewall of
> an EZ or put a rotary switch and standard wire between the "trick" wire
and the display?
>
> How much of all this is urban legend .... Jim S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi all,
The AK 350 encoder instruction sheet mentions a strobe wire.
What is that strobe wire for ?
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
AI Nut wrote:
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
This is best practice, but not necessarily required. For example, if
you are measuring a high temperature (EGT) and are only tuning for some
amount lean or rich of peak, then any errors caused by connecting the
thermocouple wires to copper wires somewhere between the measurement and
the instrument are essentially negligible - especially if the junction
is at approximately the same temperature as the instrument.
On the other hand, if you are trying to measure a temperature closer to
ambient, it is much more important to use thermocouple wire all the way
(see comment below also).
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the switch,
>then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the switch to the
>instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same temperature zone as
>the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches are critical to
>sensor/instrument accuracy.
>
This is not true if you actually use thermocouple wire from the switch
to the instrument. As long as all terminals of the switch are at the
same temperature all the junction potentials cancel out (i.e.
thermocouple from the measurement point to switch contact generates one
voltage and switch contact to thermocouple connected to the instrument
generates an opposite polarity voltage).
>Anytime one has a connection in the sensor
>wire, one creates another cold junction.
>
True.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
>
>HTH,
>AI Nut
>using EGT/CHT per cylinder to feed analog to digital convertor then to
>computer, via Analog Devices 594/595 chips.
>
>
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
bob whats you feeling about using the EXP Buss system and not using the normal
circut breaker type set up?
Tom ware
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neal A. Dillman" <neald(at)glyph.com> |
| Subject: | Re: XPDR strobe ? |
Gilles,
If your transponder uses the strobe line (most don't these days), then
connect that wire. Otherwise just connect it to ground.
Happy wiring.
Regards,
Neal
Gilles.Thesee wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>The AK 350 encoder instruction sheet mentions a strobe wire.
>What is that strobe wire for ?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gilles
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: XPDR strobe ? |
> If your transponder uses the strobe line (most don't these days), then
> connect that wire. Otherwise just connect it to ground.
Neal,
Thank you for answering. I was able to complete the wiring last summer.
Actually, I should hava asked "what is the purpose of the strobe line in a
transponder ?"
Thanks,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >>Then what is the purpose of the AUX ALT switch? If it is supposed to be
> >>on always, one can always use the AUX C/B to take the Aux alternator
> off-line.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > You can do that if you wish. This system was crafted mostly to
> > support adding a capable alternator to an existing system . . .
> > particularly certified ships. The feds wouldn't look kindly
> > on using a circuit breaker as a panel control. However, the
> > C210 installation does in fact use a switch-breaker for the
> > bus-feed control.
> >
> >
>
>Hi Bob,
> I'm perhaps showing my newbie ignorance here, but why
>would the feds have an issue with using a switch-breaker
>as a panel control? Isn't that what they are designed for?
>
>-Dj, curious...
Breakers and fuses protect wires and are generally placed as
close to the high-current source (bus) that supplies the
wire. Many builders have elected to use a mix of switch-breakers
on pilots side and more common push-pull or push-only breakers
on the copilot's side. This causes you to build a large bus
structure that spreads across the panel. One of the fuse-block's
more endearing features is the compact, nearly completely inclosed,
ready made bus that runs down the middle of the assembly.
In the case of the C210, I don't think they had room in the breaker
panel for enough new breakers to accommodate the SD-20 installation.
They were able to get the kit approved with a relatively short
(but probably longer than 6") always-hot-and-unprotected wire
feeding the panel mounted switch-breaker (fusible link would
have been a good lick here). Using a switch-breaker in lieu
of the push-pull breaker/toggle switch combination solved
the logistics problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ACS2002 Voltage Selector |
>
>Bob,
>
>I wonder if you could propose a solution for the following:
>
>The ACS2002 engine monitor uses the bus for a power source and also to
>monitor bus voltage. If I have the dual electrical system (Z-14), how
>does one select main and aux bus voltage without breaking the power source
>for the monitor? I assume that I would re-boot the system every time that
>I changed the voltage selection via a single pole double throw switch. I
>am sure there is a better solution. Thanks for your help.
Try it first. Switch transition times may be fast enough
for the systems internal filter caps to hold voltage
up during transfer. If not . . .
You can install a capacitor across the + supply to the
system to store energy needed to support he monitor during
switch transition. Just as a rough idea of capacitor
size, 1 amp of current flow changes the voltage across
a 1 farad capacitor at the rate of 1 volt per second.
Assume your system draws 1 amp and lets use 100 mS as
a reasonable transition time. Assume further that the
system stays active at 10v or above. Sooo . . . we can
tolerate up to say 3 volts of drop for 100 mS at 1A
of system draw.
Taking the relationship I cited:
A V
----- = ------
C S
or:
1 = 3
----- -----
C .1
transposing we get:
.1
C = ----- = 33,000 microfarads
3
If your current is lower, the size of the
capacitor goes down in proportion. If your
allowable voltage drop is higher, the capacitor
goes down in proportion. If the switch transition
time is longer, the capacitor goes up in
proportion.
The relationships cited assume constant current
draw as voltage changes which may not be true
but will be in the ballpark for the purposes
of this calculation.
B&C stocks a 47,000 uF cap (Cat #S251D479) for
$12 that has a high order of probability for
taking care of this problem with no additional
need for discovery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
>
> > If you eliminate the switch (and the breaker stays normally
> > closed) the s/b alternator comes up immediately after starting
> > the engine.
>
>That's okay isn't it? I assumed that you don't mess with the
>switch during start-up, but rather just leave it on.
It's your checklist. I prefer to turn everything off at shutdown
and bring things back up one at a time after startup as part of
a preflight analysis of system operation. Exercising switches while
watching for expected results is a generally good policy.
This is one reason why I prefer to turn radios off via their
front panel switches (as opposed to the "convenience" of
brining all radios on with an avionics master). You put your
hands on each radio and see that it comes alive as opposed to
flipping one switch and assuming that everything on that switch
is working okay. This would apply to the aux alternator as well.
The ACTION of flipping the switch in the checklist is paired
with an OBSERVATION of expected behavior.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Hi,
>new to the list, about 8 months from first flight RV8 in UK. Three
>electrical bits puzzling me and wonder if you can help.
>
>1. Have an IO 360 (injected ) engine. I am supposing that a simple toggle,
>on/off will suffice for the fuel pump?
Sure.
>2. My essential bus is to get me on the ground as soon as
>possible...endurance not the issue that many people want. We cannot fly
>IMC or at night in UK with home build. After 13000 hrs "conditioning" as
>an airline pilot I do not want to stay airborne with an unresolved
>electrical problem....especially when I have constructed the set up! In UK
>never far from a landable site.
>I want to supply the VHF, Tx Pdr, EFIS Lite(Blue Mountain ) AND Flap
>motor from the essential bus, normally via a silicone diode from the main
>bus. In non normal mode Flaps would be selected when Visual, clear to Land
>and committed....if any pwr left. What size , type of diode do I need for
>normal operation of such a system?
Doesn't sound like you need an E-bus. Why put an EFIS system in
an airplane that will never need it? Given the rules of engagement
for OBAM aircraft in the UK, it might be practical to build
this ship up like a super-J3. If you're interested in aerobatics,
you could take out a LOT of weight by incorporating a minimal
electrical system to support the starter and a couple of radios.
>3. Any thoughts on best solution to wiring in the ammeter?
If you're talking about the classic minus-zero-plus reading battery
ammeter,
this too is a throwback to the way we wired airplanes in 1946. Use of this
instrument requires that the alternator b-lead be brought into the cockpit
and tied to the main bus . . . something that is useful to avoid.
Perhaps your needs are better served with incorporation of
system architecture described in Van's literature for the
kit. Similar systems are described in works by Tony Bingelis.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | F1Rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
> This is one reason why I prefer to turn radios off via their
> front panel switches (as opposed to the "convenience" of
> brining all radios on with an avionics master). You put your
> hands on each radio and see that it comes alive as opposed to
> flipping one switch and assuming that everything on that switch
> is working okay. This would apply to the aux alternator as well.
> The ACTION of flipping the switch in the checklist is paired
> with an OBSERVATION of expected behavior.
That's really a great piece of advice. I never looked at it that way. Thank you
for the insight.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shield termination KCS55A/KI525A |
>
>
>Hello,
>
>I'm hoping someone can recommend where to attach the shield terminations
>for a KI525A HSI. I've seen photo's (cannot find link) that show the
>shield terminations attached to the screw on the KI525's connector
>strain relief. I'm really not happy with this because the strain relief
>is just floating in the slot of the back shell and the back shell itself
>is only attached electrically to the connector alignment/keying posts
>(still just floating).
It's a common practice to tie shields to connector backshells
in avionics installations. Obviously, this works ONLY when all
connector shells are metallic . . . the goal is to get shields
connected to the outer case of the accessory. If your hardware
doesn't seem to achieve this goal, then tying shields to a
"ground" pin in the connector is a better bet.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the switch,
>then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the switch to the
>instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same temperature zone as
>the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches are critical to
>sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a connection in the sensor
>wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.
For our purposes, this rule of thumb works as error-balancing
issues are small. When in doubt, don't intermix alloys in the
wiring to any greater extent than necessary.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
Not necessarily true. It depends on the input signal conditioning
techniques used in each instrument. It MIGHT work just fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
>
>bob whats you feeling about using the EXP Buss system and not using the
>normal circut breaker type set up?
>Tom ware
I don't believe this product to be of good value. For what this
item costs, you can buy ALL of the goodies needed to wire your
airplane and have $ left over. Further, what ends up in your airplane
is EXACTLY what you want, not what someone thinks you need in
a plug-n-play product. The product isn't "unsafe" and probably
performs as advertised.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/expbusad.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/expbusthd.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "'Scott Richardson'" <scott_m_richardson(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
So along these lines, I'm designing a engine temperature scanner that
allows me to scan through the two sets of temperatures and send
one of each of CHT and EGT to my RMI Micromonitor which only accepts
a single CHT and EGT. In following Bob's advice around the switching
of thermocouple wires, I've also tried to keep the traces around my
PC board as equal in length as possible between cylinders and between
the two wires in a thermocouple. I'm also intending to mount the
scanner on my panel next to my RMI unit and run all thermocouple leads
right up to it.
So the questions I have are two:
o How concerned should I be about keeping all the PCB traces the same
length? From the previous discussions, it sounds like all I really
need to worry about is keeping everything at the same temperature.
o I'm planning on using CD4052 multiplexer IC's which are used for
analog
signals. These chips can pass a max of 20V p-p analog signals. Does
anyone see any issues with these when the thermocouple signals are on
the order of 10's of mV?
o I'm assuming that in general of the J and K type thermocouples we use
for
CHT and EGT, that the signals are always positive or always negative
(depending on how they're connected to the measuring device) in the
temp ranges we use. Is this a correct assumption?
As always, thanks for the help.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
-->
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember
>it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the
>switch, then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the
>switch to the instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same
>temperature zone as the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches
>are critical to sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a
>connection in the sensor wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.
For our purposes, this rule of thumb works as error-balancing
issues are small. When in doubt, don't intermix alloys in the
wiring to any greater extent than necessary.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
Not necessarily true. It depends on the input signal conditioning
techniques used in each instrument. It MIGHT work just fine.
Bob . . .
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
Scott,
The trace lengths will not make much difference, however you need to be
careful in your circuit design as that the thermocouples often have ground
loop problems. That is a CHT probe on #1 and CHT probe on #4 may have a
different DC offset. Therefore you have to be careful in you mux design.
Specifically most muxes have diode clamps on the inputs for ESD protection
of the internal circuits (MOS transistors) therefore lets say that CHT #1
has a -1V DC offset, which can happen if the ground connection is not great.
Then the mux diodes would clip this to -0.7V if the negative rail of the mux
is grounded. Thus you CHT reading will not be correct.
To fix this problem it is best to use a negative voltage for the Vdd of the
mux, which means not only do you need a positive rail but also a negative
voltage rail. The negative voltage rail is not too hard to generate using a
switcher or a pump circuit but it is one more thing to consider.
I know that as I designed my engine monitor I ran into a lot of problems
with ground loop noise where the noise was only a few millivolts. I finally
designed my unit rails such that I could have over a +/-2V ground loop with
out effecting the measurement. The final results were that I could get less
than 5 degrees of error in my measurements on 8 cylinders updated around 10
times a second.
If you need further assistance in your mux design let me know.
Regards,
Trampas Stern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 'Scott
Richardson'
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
So along these lines, I'm designing a engine temperature scanner that
allows me to scan through the two sets of temperatures and send
one of each of CHT and EGT to my RMI Micromonitor which only accepts
a single CHT and EGT. In following Bob's advice around the switching
of thermocouple wires, I've also tried to keep the traces around my
PC board as equal in length as possible between cylinders and between
the two wires in a thermocouple. I'm also intending to mount the
scanner on my panel next to my RMI unit and run all thermocouple leads
right up to it.
So the questions I have are two:
o How concerned should I be about keeping all the PCB traces the same
length? From the previous discussions, it sounds like all I really
need to worry about is keeping everything at the same temperature.
o I'm planning on using CD4052 multiplexer IC's which are used for
analog
signals. These chips can pass a max of 20V p-p analog signals. Does
anyone see any issues with these when the thermocouple signals are on
the order of 10's of mV?
o I'm assuming that in general of the J and K type thermocouples we use
for
CHT and EGT, that the signals are always positive or always negative
(depending on how they're connected to the measuring device) in the
temp ranges we use. Is this a correct assumption?
As always, thanks for the help.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
-->
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember
>it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the
>switch, then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the
>switch to the instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same
>temperature zone as the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches
>are critical to sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a
>connection in the sensor wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.
For our purposes, this rule of thumb works as error-balancing
issues are small. When in doubt, don't intermix alloys in the
wiring to any greater extent than necessary.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
Not necessarily true. It depends on the input signal conditioning
techniques used in each instrument. It MIGHT work just fine.
Bob . . .
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | KA-134 and Wiring Diagram |
I need a wiring diagram/schematic and Owner's Manual for a Bendix/King KA-134 Audio
Panel. Does anyone know where I can purchase one or have a copy they would
be willing to share? I would gladly reimburse expenses....
Thanks,
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "hollandm" <hollandm(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Resistive Fuel Sensors |
I'm installing Stewart Warner resistive fuel sensors in my RV9A. To provide some
redundancy I am considering adding a set of Vans analog gauges, in series with
a Grand Rapids EIS4000.
Are there any concerns about having more than one gauge attached to these sensors?
Thanks
Mike Holland
N192MH Reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Slade" <sladerj(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Resistive Fuel Sensors |
> Are there any concerns about having more than one gauge attached
> to these sensors?
Now that's a question I'd like to hear the answer to. My system needs 3 oil
pressure sensors (hobbs, gauge and voice annunciator). Can I use the same
sensor for all of them? Same's true of oil temp & coolant temp.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
| Subject: | Turbo pressure to mags? |
I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow to cool
things down?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hunt" <Stephen.Hunt19(at)btinternet.com> |
Hi Bob,
the background to EFIS in my "8" is as follows.
I would never choose to fly IFR or at night with one engine driving the one prop
thing for me to do.(despite my 13000 hrs flying...or maybe because of it?!)...
My EFIS Lite weighs 520 grammes...about 3.25 Lbs. For this I get all the basic
flight insts plus a GPS driven moving map plus a nav system (virt VOR with 360
"compass".) Its a heck of a lot of kit for 500 grammes!
We dont have much free airspace on our little Island and we need to be able to
either find our way around with great accuracy or accept help with radar headings
in order to avoid all the controlled airspace when in our home builds.
Yes I like aeros but I also want to tour with my `plane.
The set up proposed would be very unwise given the above and our weather when visual
can mean "in sight of the ground" but with perhaps no discernable horizon.
So this was my logic to having stnd by power available , for at least ten minutes
battery operation. This would give me time to get back on the ground in most
circumstances that I can imagine when flying over land in UK.
The ammeter question is well off my patch hence the dumb question. However, what
I was referring was the advice on pages 7-12 and 7-13 of "The Aeroelectric Connection".
I wondered if I wired it to the B lead just before my starter relay
....would that be a reasonable thing to do? Is there a better solution? Have
I completely miss understood again!
rgds
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hunt" <Stephen.Hunt19(at)btinternet.com> |
Whoops,
just re read my latest dumb question.What I meant to say was....would you recommend
I fit a battery ammeter as described on page 7-14, or is there a better solution(less
weighty)....or indeed is this me being old fashioned and I simply
dont need one?
I will try to make the Kansas seminar!!!
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo pressure to mags? |
>
>
>I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
>
>In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
>
>I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
>
>I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
Not at all. Your spark plugs used to be tested by
observing the spark gap through a windowed chamber
while air pressure was adjusted until the spark would
just stop. The better plugs will spark at 150 psi, poorer
ones at lesser pressures. Vacuum tubes won't function
with even a small amount of air present.
>Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow
>to cool
>things down?
Turbo C210's and Mooney's have a small pipe that takes pressurized
air downstream of turbochargers to the magneto housings.
Without such pressurization, they're in danger of internal
arc-over. Waveguides in the B-52 radar system are pressurized,
without pressurization, the 50 kilowatt pulse of energy
going out to the antenna would never make it . . . one
would have a little storm of mini-lightning strikes going
on somewhere in the feedline.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo pressure to mags? |
Air at atmospheric pressure is more resistant to arcing than lower
pressure air. If you had a true vacuum then the arcing would be even
more suppressed, but at high altitudes you only have lower pressure -
not vacuum. As you mentioned, higher pressure air cools better.
My $0.02...
Dick Tasker
Ronald J. Parigoris wrote:
>
>I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
>
>In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
>
>I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
>
>I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
>
>Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow to cool
>things down?
>
>Thx.
>Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51(at)c2i.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hunt" <Stephen.Hunt19(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel sw?
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> the background to EFIS in my "8" is as follows.
>
> I would never choose to fly IFR or at night with one engine driving the
one prop , its not wrong to do this elsewhere,however, I simply dont think
it is a good thing for me to do.(despite my 13000 hrs flying...or maybe
because of it?!)...
>
> My EFIS Lite weighs 520 grammes...about 3.25 Lbs. For this I get all the
basic flight insts plus a GPS driven moving map plus a nav system (virt VOR
with 360 "compass".) Its a heck of a lot of kit for 500 grammes!
>
> We dont have much free airspace on our little Island and we need to be
able to either find our way around with great accuracy or accept help with
radar headings in order to avoid all the controlled airspace when in our
home builds.
>
> Yes I like aeros but I also want to tour with my `plane.
>
> The set up proposed would be very unwise given the above and our weather
when visual can mean "in sight of the ground" but with perhaps no
discernable horizon.
>
> So this was my logic to having stnd by power available , for at least ten
minutes battery operation. This would give me time to get back on the
ground in most circumstances that I can imagine when flying over land in UK.
>
>
> The ammeter question is well off my patch hence the dumb question.
However, what I was referring was the advice on pages 7-12 and 7-13 of "The
Aeroelectric Connection". I wondered if I wired it to the B lead just before
my starter relay ....would that be a reasonable thing to do? Is there a
better solution? Have I completely miss understood again!
>
> rgds
>
> Steve
>
> Hi!
Good news; 520 g is more like 1,15 lbs so you just saved another 2,1
lbs!
Regards
Tore S Bristol
Norway
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete & Farrell Rouse" <pete-farrell(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo pressure to mags? |
Ron,
There is something called 'breakdown voltage' that is basically the voltage
necessary to ionize the air sufficiently between a gap of a know distance to
induce an arc across the gap. The breakdown voltage gets lower as the air
density gets lower, thus the breakdown voltage decreases with increasing
altitude. There is something called the 'Paschen Curve' that describes this
phenomenon. The higher the voltage, the more probability of arcing at
altitude.
The only reason I am able to comment on this at all, is that I asked a very
similar question in the last few days.
Well, I just ran out of knowledge, so I'll shut up now.....
Happy Holidays,
Pete Rouse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Turbo pressure to mags?
>
> I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
>
> In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
>
> I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
>
> I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
>
> Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow
to cool
> things down?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Resistive Fuel Sensors |
Some sensors you can put in parallel with multiple gauges.
Most sensors which have three wires, like most resistive float senders
outputs a voltage on one of the pins which varies. Multiple gauges can be
placed in parallel with theses sensors, assuming the gauges have a relative
high impedance input. Now with that said you would have to check with EIS to
determine if their unit can be put in parallel with an analog gauge.
As far as oil pressure if you use a switch it is easy to have multiple
devices triggered off the same switch.
One of the big things in my mind about using multiple gauges is for the
redundancy, however if you are using the same sensor then your redundancy is
really not there, since from my experience the sensor is more likely to fail
than a gauge.
Personally I see a need for a back up oil pressure gauge and a back up
voltage gauge, especially with electronic instruments. Let's not forget that
your job is to fly the plane, with or with out engine running.
As far as knowing how much fuel you have which most people have a reasonable
guess based on experience, after all if you are unsure of your fuel level,
then you need fuel.
Regards,
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Slade
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Resistive Fuel Sensors
> Are there any concerns about having more than one gauge attached
> to these sensors?
Now that's a question I'd like to hear the answer to. My system needs 3 oil
pressure sensors (hobbs, gauge and voice annunciator). Can I use the same
sensor for all of them? Same's true of oil temp & coolant temp.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Turbo pressure to mags? |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Here is a chart that lists the dielectric strengths of
various common materials. Note that vacuum is one of
the lowest (worst) dielectric strengths.
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
Dielectric strengths for insulators
Dielectric strength in kilovolts per inch (kV/in):
Material* Dielectric strength
=========================================
Vacuum --------------------- 20
Air ------------------------ 20 to 75
Porcelain ------------------ 40 to 200
Paraffin Wax --------------- 200 to 300
Transformer Oil ------------ 400
Bakelite ------------------- 300 to 550
Rubber --------------------- 450 to 700
Shellac -------------------- 900
Paper ---------------------- 1250
Teflon --------------------- 1500
Glass ---------------------- 2000 to 3000
Mica ----------------------- 5000
>
>
> I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
>
> In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
>
> I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
>
> I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
>
> Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an
> airflow to cool things down?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Turbo pressure to mags? |
| From: | "Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul(at)eucleides.com> |
On Wed, 2003-12-24 at 07:59, Richard Tasker wrote:
>
> Air at atmospheric pressure is more resistant to arcing than lower
> pressure air. If you had a true vacuum then the arcing would be even
> more suppressed, but at high altitudes you only have lower pressure -
> not vacuum. As you mentioned, higher pressure air cools better.
Voltage required to arc is actually a U shaped curve with the minimum
arcing voltage to hop a 1 cm gap occurring at about 150,000 FT DA.
Rather than depend on air as an insulator in high flying stuff Reynolds
makes elastomer seals that aren't susceptible to this arc length creep.
<http://www.reynoldsindustries.com/product/2multipin/page17.asp>
The above link shows Paschen's 19th century results when this was
studied.
--
PAF Consulting Engineers | 427 - 140th Ave NE
(425)641-8202 voice | Bellevue, WA 98005
(425)641-1773 fax |
GnuPG Public Key - <http://eucleides.com/pgpkey.asc>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbo pressure to mags? |
Ron
You have it backwards. Air is a relatively poor conductor. It acts as an insulator.
Since the air at high altitudes is less dense, it is not as good at insulating
spark arcing. Pressurizing the interior of the magnetoes and the wiring
harnesses helps suppress arcing by supplying a more dense atmosphere.
Charlie Kuss
>
> From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
> Date: 2003/12/24 Wed AM 02:50:06 EST
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Turbo pressure to mags?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Whoops,
>just re read my latest dumb question.What I meant to say was....would you
>recommend I fit a battery ammeter as described on page 7-14, or is there a
>better solution(less weighty)....or indeed is this me being old fashioned
>and I simply dont need one?
>
>I will try to make the Kansas seminar!!!
Battery ammeters have some degree of utility for troubleshooting
as do alternator loadmeters. The later are easier to install
while maintaining a minimize the fat-wires-in-the-cockpit
philosophy. I'd recommend a loadmeter if you have any ammeter
at all. A low voltage warning light may well suffice for all
necessary in-flight electrical system instrumentation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Thermocouples |
<then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the switch to the
>instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same temperature zone as
>the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches are critical to
>sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a connection in the sensor
>wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.>>
Bob is certainly correct here. A long time ago when we were using passive
"pyrometers," really just voltmeters, to read thermocouples we even went as
far as to use a special selector switch that was made of the right
materials. But then I worked at a powerplant one summer and there were
thermocouples half a mile away from the instrument. We ran the TC wires to
a junction box, connected them to copper and ran the rest of the way in
copper. For an aircraft it would work just fine that way. Splice the TC
wires under the cowl to copper wires, run the copper wires to an ordinary
wafer switch if you like, and then to the instrument. Just make sure you
don't make a spice on one side of the circuit at a location that is at a
different temperature than the splice on the other side of the circuit. It
all works very easily and if there is an error it is so small that you'll
never find it.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Turbo pressure to mags? |
I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow to
cool
things down?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris>>
Vacuum might be a better INSULATOR, but the higher the pressure of the air
the higher its DIELECTRIC STRENGTH. In other words it will take a higher
voltage to arc when the pressure is higher. And this is why the magnetos
are sometimes pressurized. The problem mostly exists at the rotor where at
some voltage the current will arc to another post rather than to a plug. A
Naturally Aspirated engine doesn't have this problem because the pressure in
the cylinder also goes down with higher altitude. A supercharged engine is
typically operated at a constant manifold pressure and hence a constant
cylinder pressure regardless of altitude. If the magneto is pressurized the
potential for cross-firing is minimized.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | George Braly <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Turbo pressure to mags? |
Re mags:
If you use Bendix 1200 mags, they do NOT need to be pressurized
until above about 28000 feet.
If you use Slick mags, they need to be pressurized above about
12,000'.
Very simple. Very predictable. Very repeatable.
I have flown an unpressurized set of Bendix 1200 series mags to
33,000'D.A. before they started to arc.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Casey
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Turbo pressure to mags?
I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow to
cool
things down?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris>>
Vacuum might be a better INSULATOR, but the higher the pressure of the air
the higher its DIELECTRIC STRENGTH. In other words it will take a higher
voltage to arc when the pressure is higher. And this is why the magnetos
are sometimes pressurized. The problem mostly exists at the rotor where at
some voltage the current will arc to another post rather than to a plug. A
Naturally Aspirated engine doesn't have this problem because the pressure in
the cylinder also goes down with higher altitude. A supercharged engine is
typically operated at a constant manifold pressure and hence a constant
cylinder pressure regardless of altitude. If the magneto is pressurized the
potential for cross-firing is minimized.
Gary Casey
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Turbo pressure to mags? |
Gary Casey wrote:
".....I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???....."
Gary,
For a practical distance between high voltage wires in the range of a
few mm, when you change pressure starting from the atmospheric pressure,
the breakdown voltage is proportional to the pressure. At around 5,000
m (~15,000ft) the pressure reduces by a factor of two, and the
breakdown voltage reduces by a factor of two. That proportional
dependence is valid for any practical aviation altitude until you reach
a pressure somewhere between 1 and 0.1 mmHg, which would correspond to
an altitude of sub orbital ionosphere. At this pressure the breakdown
voltage reaches its minimum of less than 100V in air, and this is the
pressure used in neon tubes. If you reduce the pressure further the
break down voltage starts increasing very fast with reduction of
pressure. Vacuum tubes operated at a pressure less than 0.001 mmHg.
The reason for that high breakdown voltage is that there are few atoms
there and electrons can travel the whole distance between electrods
without colliding with atoms and ionizing them.
So, you are right that vacuum is much better insulator than air. But it
is a LONG way to go from any aviation pressure at any realistic
altitude to vacuum.
Jerzy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hunt" <Stephen.Hunt19(at)btinternet.com> |
Add 1000 g and you get the correct weight, I dropped the "1" ! It`s an amazingly
light bit of kit, Blue Mountain produce it, they have a webb site.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Breakdown voltage |
<>
You explained it better than I, Jerzy. One thing I didn't know is that the
minimum breakdown voltage (minimum dielectric strength) occurs at a pressure
other than a perfect vacuum. What I was getting at was the difference
between resistance and dielectric strength. Air has a certain conductivity
(when it contains a normal amount of moisture) so that might lead one to
believe that it would be better to pull a vacuum in the distributor cap.
The difference is that in the distributor cap we are concerned with
breakdown voltage, not the insulating properties and that's why the magnetos
are typically pressurized.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Resistive Fuel Sensors |
----- Original Message -----
From: "hollandm" <hollandm(at)pacbell.net>
> I'm installing Stewart Warner resistive fuel sensors in my RV9A. To
provide some redundancy I am considering adding a set of Vans analog gauges,
in series with a Grand Rapids EIS4000.
>
> Are there any concerns about having more than one gauge attached to these
sensors?
My suggestion here, if you really want redundancy, is to get the fuel flow
option for the EIS4000. Then you have two independent sources to cross
check against. That is what I did. The fuel flow is now calibrated to
within .5 gal.
Ross mickey
N9PT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Removing locking pins from radio connector.... |
What's the secret to removing the small locking pins from a connector (back of
Bendix/King KA-134 Audio Panel)?
I have a couple wires that slipped free from a pin. I need to remove the pin,
re-crimp the wires, and then install them back in the connector.
Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | voltage regulator location |
For a z-13 installation, I have noted on the instructions for both the LR-3
regulator, and the SD-8 regulator, capacitor, relay, & OV module, that these
items should be mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall to avoid heat,
water, & vibration. I'm real curious as to where most builders install
them, and any good or bad experiences. How often might these devices cause
smoke in the cockpit? What about access to adjust the voltage and perform
the annual test on the LR-3? Also, I would be running the SD-8 12 ga output
wire inside the cockpit to the devices and then back out again to the
battery contactor. Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you, Scott, RV7-A
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Both Z-13 alternators on at same time |
Hi Bob,
Just have a desire to further my education. Per Z-13, what happens if
I
inadvertently turn on my SD-8 while my main alternator is running? Would
this be an expensive lesson with lots of smoke? Do I need to set the
voltage on one a bit less than the other? Thanks.
Scott RV-7A
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Wiegenstein" <n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com> |
| Subject: | Securing Pins in D-Sub Connector |
Couldn't find anything in the archives, so here goes. Having ordered up the
D-sub crimper, pins, etc. from B&C, I'm mulling over how to secure the pins
and sockets in the D-sub connector bodies themselves. Sockets (female)
seem to seat in pretty snugly, but the male pins do not. Rather than order
shells for the connector bodies and finish them off that way, has anyone had
good results with something simpler? I'm wondering if just a dab of RTV
along the pin line, to secure the pins and wires to the connector body,
would do the trick. TIA for any suggestions.
John Wiegenstein
Hansville, WA
RV-6 N727JW (reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Securing Pins in D-Sub Connector |
In a message dated 12/26/2003 2:25:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com writes:
> Having ordered up the
> D-sub crimper, pins, etc. from B&C, I'm mulling over how to secure the pins
> and sockets in the D-sub connector bodies themselves.
John,
Just put the pin in the backside of the connector, it snaps in place. There
is an insertion tool for this, but I have never needed to use it.
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Securing Pins in D-Sub Connector |
>
>
>Couldn't find anything in the archives, so here goes. Having ordered up the
>D-sub crimper, pins, etc. from B&C, I'm mulling over how to secure the pins
>and sockets in the D-sub connector bodies themselves. Sockets (female)
>seem to seat in pretty snugly, but the male pins do not. Rather than order
>shells for the connector bodies and finish them off that way, has anyone had
>good results with something simpler? I'm wondering if just a dab of RTV
>along the pin line, to secure the pins and wires to the connector body,
>would do the trick. TIA for any suggestions.
Either connector (assuming you're using a housing DESIGNED to
accept the machined, removable pins) will grasp the pins very
firmly. You push them in until you hear/feel a "snap" when
the retention tines internal to the housing slip past the
pin's largest diameter. If you're working with (ugh 24 awg or
finer wire) you may need to use the red/wht insertion/extraction
tool to press the pins into place. With all the wire in my inventory,
I simply push the pin into final resting place by pushing with
the wire.
Once properly placed, you WILL need the white end of
the insertion/extraction tool to remove a pin.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> connector.... |
| Subject: | Re: Removing locking pins from radio |
connector....
connector....
>
>What's the secret to removing the small locking pins from a connector
>(back of Bendix/King KA-134 Audio Panel)?
>
>I have a couple wires that slipped free from a pin. I need to remove the
>pin, re-crimp the wires, and then install them back in the connector.
You can buy or fabricate a tool like the one shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/extraction_tool.jpg
It's not likely that you'll be able to put a wire back into
an already crimped pin and re-crimp it. It's a good idea to
put 2-3 pound tug on a pin after crimping and before inserting
pin into connector housing. If you can't achieve at least this
degree of capture integrity, there's something wrong with either
your crimp tool, technique or both.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Phone/Mic Jack Connector |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Hi Bob and All,
We plan to put two cigar power jacks and the pilot's and co-pilot's phone
and mic jacks between the pilot and co-pilot seats in a "small console".
This console will need to be removed during annual inspection and therefore
will need a disconnect.
Are there any special considerations in selecting a connector because of the
the phone and mic jacks? I am thinking Molex? Possibly D-sub?
Thanks,
Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Removing locking pins from radio connector.... |
In case you missed this before:
http://www.berkut13.com/extractor.htm
Definitely read this before trying to make or purchasing a tool!!!! You
will be glad you did.
Enjoy,
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
www.berkut13.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Removing locking pins from radio connector....
>
> What's the secret to removing the small locking pins from a connector
(back of Bendix/King KA-134 Audio Panel)?
>
> I have a couple wires that slipped free from a pin. I need to remove the
pin, re-crimp the wires, and then install them back in the connector.
>
> Jack
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Both Z-13 alternators on at same time |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
> Just have a desire to further my education. Per Z-13, what
> happens if I
>inadvertently turn on my SD-8 while my main alternator is running? Would
>this be an expensive lesson with lots of smoke? Do I need to set the
>voltage on one a bit less than the other? Thanks.
Nope. No damage will occur. The alternator with the higher setpoint
will attempt to hog the load . . . if this happens to be the smaller
SD8 alternator, it will put out up between 8 and 10 amps before
the bus sags enough to wake up the larger alternator whereupon
it will take up the slack.
Now, UNLIKE the SD-20 which is DESIGNED to operate TOGETHER
with the larger alternator in a Z-12 configuration, you DON'T
want to set the SD-8 for a lower voltage and run it all the time.
Unless you have the special circuitry like that built into the
SD-20/SB-1 combination to alert you when the main alternator
fails, running the SD-8 all the time would mask the event if
your system was lightly loaded.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: voltage regulator location |
>
>
>For a z-13 installation, I have noted on the instructions for both the LR-3
>regulator, and the SD-8 regulator, capacitor, relay, & OV module, that these
>items should be mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall to avoid heat,
>water, & vibration. I'm real curious as to where most builders install
>them, and any good or bad experiences. How often might these devices cause
>smoke in the cockpit? What about access to adjust the voltage and perform
>the annual test on the LR-3? Also, I would be running the SD-8 12 ga output
>wire inside the cockpit to the devices and then back out again to the
>battery contactor. Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
EVERY manufacturer of electro-whizzies would like for you
to never get his box wet, hot, too-cold, oily, dusty, or badly
beat upon . . . if they had a choice. It stands to reason that
PROBABILITY of unhappy customers due to environmentally induced
problems will be lower.
However, Mr. Bainbridge has elected to play in the same sandbox
with the big guys. Irrespective of his best wishes for his products,
they should not require any more pampering that other devices
designed for airplanes. All of the devices you've cited have
be successfully installed both in the cockpit and under the cowl
for 15 to 20 years. Design your system for installation and
maintenance ease and simplicity, not for feather-bedding the
components.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MicroAir transponder wiriing harness |
> Tried to mail this to: nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com but didn't go thru.
>Do you have a different e-mail address now?
That account was closed when spam count topped 2 or 3 hundred
a day. There is an unpublished e-mail address on the
aeroelectric.com server that I use for limited purposes
and is not checked as often as this on the cox.net account.
Your harness has been modified per the data you provided
and is out of here in tomorrow's mail.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Thermocouples |
>
>< >then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the switch to the
> >instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same temperature zone as
> >the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches are critical to
> >sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a connection in the sensor
> >wire, one creates another cold junction.
>
> It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
> any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
> foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
> to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
> but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
> make-a-right approach.>>
>
>Bob is certainly correct here. A long time ago when we were using passive
>"pyrometers," really just voltmeters, to read thermocouples we even went as
>far as to use a special selector switch that was made of the right
>materials. But then I worked at a powerplant one summer and there were
>thermocouples half a mile away from the instrument. We ran the TC wires to
>a junction box, connected them to copper and ran the rest of the way in
>copper.
You can do this but the thermocouple-to-copper junction becomes the "cold"
or "reference junction" . . . to achieve useable and accurate information,
you'll need to either KNOW or CONTROL the temperature in that junction
box. This is the configuration described in View -B-, Figure 14-10
of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf
In the "remote reference" scenario, I show making this connnection in
an ice bath (0 degrees C) so that voltages can be converted to
a useful temperature equivalent at the instrument end. I've designed
systems were the j-box for a whole raft of t/c reference junctions
was held at about 100C with a heater and thermostat. This provided
a known correction factor to convert voltages sensed at instrument
end into real temperatures.
All of these discussion should be academic. REAL thermocouple wire
is not hard to get nor is it expensive in the small quantities needed
to wire the average SE aircraft.
See:
http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=H06&book=Temperature
for a gaggle of thermocouple wire products. May I recommend
the TT series wires and 20AWG stranded as particularly robust and
easy to use. Of there are other combinations to choose from.
There's a part-number-builder on each catalog page for
wire that will tell you what a small quantity of each kind
of wire will cost. For example, TT-J-20S in 25' coil is the
grand sum of $32 plus shipping. The same insulation in a 24 gage
stranded wire is $27. K-wires are similarly priced. Check
out the rest of Omega's website for a wealth of free reference
literature on thermocouples and other technologies.
Bottom line is that what ever technology you use to deduce
temperatures based on a thermocouple will DEPEND on a reference
junction somewhere in the system. For panel mounted instruments,
this reference is INSIDE the instrument. Bring T/C wires
all the way up to the instrument if you expect to achieve
specified performance for that instrument.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Wiegenstein" <n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Securing Pinds in D-Sub Connector |
>>Couldn't find anything in the archives, so here goes. Having ordered up
the
>>D-sub crimper, pins, etc. from B&C, I'm mulling over how to secure the
pins
>>and sockets in the D-sub connector bodies themselves. Sockets (female)
>>seem to seat in pretty snugly, but the male pins do not. Rather than
order
>>shells for the connector bodies and finish them off that way, has anyone
had
>>good results with something simpler? I'm wondering if just a dab of RTV
>?along the pin line, to secure the pins and wires to the connector body,
>>would do the trick. TIA for any suggestions.
>Either connector (assuming you're using a housing DESIGNED to
>accept the machined, removable pins) will grasp the pins very
>firmly. You push them in until you hear/feel a "snap" when
>the retention tines internal to the housing slip past the
>pin's largest diameter. If you're working with (ugh 24 awg or
>finer wire) you may need to use the red/wht insertion/extraction
>tool to press the pins into place. With all the wire in my inventory,
>I simply push the pin into final resting place by pushing with
>the wire.
>Once properly placed, you WILL need the white end of
>the insertion/extraction tool to remove a pin.
>Bob . . .
Right you are, Bob. All the parts are from B&C, so that wasn't the problem.
I just don't think I was getting those suckers all the way in there. They
DO seem nice and snug now. This still leaves me with the question of
whether some kind of strain relief needs to be incorporated, but these
connectors aren't going to be yanked around - they should end up tied down
or otherwise fixed in position except for maintenance, etc. operations.
Your thoughts?
John H. Wiegenstein
HELLER WIEGENSTEIN PLLC
19301 - 8th Ave. NE, Suite A
Poulsbo, WA 98370
(360) 394-3500
(360) 394-3503 FAX
johnw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com
www.hellerwiegenstein.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Horizontal Contactor |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Hi Bob and All,
Quick question. Is there any concern about mounting a battery contactor with
the coil tube in the horizontal position? Given the pounding that our
seaplane will take on the water I wondered if there was any problem with the
coil holding the contact bar in a horizontal position verses pulling it down
while in a vertical position.
Thanks,
Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: voltage regulator location |
I did what Bob suggests to make it convenient and maintenance friendly. I
put it right in the lower part of my instrument sub-panel on which meets the
suggestions of the voltage regulator designer too. I can see it when the
tip up is open and I can adjust the voltage if need be. And annually I can
easily see to trip the #2 and 6 terminals to be sure the LR3 still works.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip-up
On Finish Kit and FWF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: voltage regulator location
>
> >
> >
> >For a z-13 installation, I have noted on the instructions for both the
LR-3
> >regulator, and the SD-8 regulator, capacitor, relay, & OV module, that
these
> >items should be mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall to avoid
heat,
> >water, & vibration. I'm real curious as to where most builders install
> >them, and any good or bad experiences. How often might these devices
cause
> >smoke in the cockpit? What about access to adjust the voltage and
perform
> >the annual test on the LR-3? Also, I would be running the SD-8 12 ga
output
> >wire inside the cockpit to the devices and then back out again to the
> >battery contactor. Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
>
> EVERY manufacturer of electro-whizzies would like for you
> to never get his box wet, hot, too-cold, oily, dusty, or badly
> beat upon . . . if they had a choice. It stands to reason that
> PROBABILITY of unhappy customers due to environmentally induced
> problems will be lower.
>
> However, Mr. Bainbridge has elected to play in the same sandbox
> with the big guys. Irrespective of his best wishes for his products,
> they should not require any more pampering that other devices
> designed for airplanes. All of the devices you've cited have
> be successfully installed both in the cockpit and under the cowl
> for 15 to 20 years. Design your system for installation and
> maintenance ease and simplicity, not for feather-bedding the
> components.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | f1rocket(at)telus.net |
| Subject: | KX 145 squelch problem |
Hi listers.
I have an old KX145 that only has a few hours on it (plane was in storage for
20+ years). During retesting of the plane I discovered a problem with the
radio.
If I turn the squelch down so I don't hear any static, I don't receive anyone
(right at the very left end of the dial). When I turn it up and am willing to
listen to the annoying static (so much for the noise cancelling headphones)
everyone comes through nice and clear.
Any ideas where I should start looking here? Anyone have schematics for this
radio?
Thanks,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Manual master switch |
This was, I believe covered once before, but I don't remember the consensus:
What are the pros/cons of using a manual master (battery) switch instead of
the tradition relay contactor? It looks to me like the advantage is that it
eliminates a failure mode and reduces the wiring complexity. The
disadvantage is that there is likely a longer wire run from the battery that
is unprotected. In my case the battery(s) will likely be located in the
baggage compartment or rear of that, so the wire run is significant. The
plane is plastic, though, so with appropriate wire runs the likelihood of a
short to ground can be made to be negligibly small. I remember in car
wiring design the idea was that the battery wire is large enough so that the
battery will go dead before the wire will burn, although I don't know if it
actually works that way. My idea is to mount the battery switch on the
sidewall next to the pilot.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | sample Z figures |
Hi,
I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
system, is there?
I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need
a constant, automatic source of electricity. I
don't know of any subaru conversions that have two
alternators, so two batteries will be a must.
I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but
I don't quite understand how any of this is
automatic. I'm missing the part where I
wire my engine computer to both "always hot"
battery busses, and it always gets juice.
It all seems clear when I'm reading at the
coffee table, but when I start to draw my own
stuff, I realize how little I understood!
Thanks!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
In a message dated 12/28/03 8:28:47 AM Central Standard Time,
glcasey(at)adelphia.net writes:
What are the pros/cons of using a manual master (battery) switch instead of
the tradition relay contactor? It looks to me like the advantage is that it
eliminates a failure mode and reduces the wiring complexity.
Good Morning Gary,
Just as further food for thought, have you considered using a manual switch
operated by a mechanical mechanism?
The Sud Est Caravelle had a manual arrangement for shifting a bunch of 28
volt batteries into a much higher voltage arrangement for engine starting. I
have forgotten the exact voltage, but I think we had enough batteries in series
to supply something around one hundred and twenty volts to the starter for
engine start. I do remember that the voltage would drop fifty or sixty volts
during the start. (We had to monitor the voltage and shut it down if the voltage
fell too low) There was a lever just to the left of my seat that I would
operate to switch the battery bank from the series to the parallel mode. As soon
as
the engines were both started, I would move the lever to the twenty-eight
volt position. Moving the lever also did things of which I have no knowledge to
restore normal twenty-eight volt system operation.
As I say. I have no idea what all the lever accomplished, but I do recall
that all of the switching was manually done by moving that lever.
It would add several points of mechanical failure, but it would save running
that heavy wire and all of the attendant voltage drop.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
Not necessarily a recommendation, as I am going to develop my own
electrical design, but if you go to www.eggenfellneraircraft.com there
is a complete design there for what you want. It does, (unfortunately
in my opinion) use the EXP Bus system, but it does all you want.
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>system, is there?
>
>I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need
>a constant, automatic source of electricity. I
>don't know of any subaru conversions that have two
>alternators, so two batteries will be a must.
>
>I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but
>I don't quite understand how any of this is
>automatic. I'm missing the part where I
>wire my engine computer to both "always hot"
>battery busses, and it always gets juice.
>
>It all seems clear when I'm reading at the
>coffee table, but when I start to draw my own
>stuff, I realize how little I understood!
>
>Thanks!
>Mickey
>
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Avionics for sale |
These will be going up on Barnstormers next week, but I thought I'd give
the folks here first crack.
1) Microair T-2000 transponder. 4 digit serial number (so there are no
outstanding mods to take care of,) never installed, in original
packaging. With harness by Bob, full warrantee. $1400. Retail $1700 plus
the price of the harness.
2) Apollo CNX80. New, never installed or run in any way, less than 30 days
out of the factory, in original packaging. Full warrantee. $9000 Retail $1195
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> board', |
Off.topic(at)matronics.com,
long.and.rambling.with.social.commentary..@matronics.com
| Subject: | How do I solder My son's x-mas present, the 'electricity |
board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary..
board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary..
Help!
I have a toy for my 9 year old boy.. it's a kit, with a PCB, and a another
PCB that solders to it. They both have tabs with silver contacts on them,
the small PCB seems to fit into a slot on the motherboard, and the tabs
align with each other on the back side of the motherboard. They meet at a
ninety degree angle to each other, the tab with the connection solder leads
sticks thru the motherboard. Kind of like this l_ , so it looks like I
need to bridge the contacts.
This contraption (The new component) needs to have various switches
soldered to the board it a la our dear departed Heathkit catalog, and then
a speaker and batteries..it eventually makes farm animal noises. (Does my
heart good as it seems as though Heathkit is long gone!) I have soldered
various components to boards in the past, but most had wires or leads that
went thru the board, this is just tabs next to each other, like 8 on each
board, with about 1mm separating the tabs. Do I just try to heat the
adjacent tabs at the same time and flow some solder across the gap?
My old man, (who is 74 , an orthopedic surgeon wannabe engineer..got into
MIT right after WWII, and was told that if he went to Med school the army
would pay for it and make him an officer...) got it for the 'electricity
board' he built for the kid a few years ago..it is in for
an overhaul/upgrade....(he did one for me in about 1963..I was three at
the time..but there were no chips on that one). He couldn't figure out
how to solder this new item, and decided I'd know how...
By the way, the 'electricity board' is one of his coolest teaching
inventions..it consists of a battery pack, a few DPDT knife type switches,
a momentary on switch, a variable resistor, some LED's (my '63 model
didn't have these), an electric motor with a propeller, a buzzer, some
light bulbs, a horn, etc, , all mounted to a 12" x 18" plywood board. Also
included with the set are ten or fifteen alligator clipped jumper leads, in
red and black. Each component has its leads soldered to a terminal suitable
for clipping an alligator clip jumper lead to it.
From this basic bread board, we can teach all those neato concepts
like..complete circuit, resistance, positive and negative, series,
parallel, short circuit..you guys get the idea. You can hook it up in
endless configurations.
The only problem with this toy is that as the owner and beneficiary of
it, you end up with some strange looks from the adults around you, when
you are ten years old and you tell them that "you need to clean off the
ground connections on this battery if you want your boat to
start"...or "you better watch the polarity on those jumper cables, you are
hooking your two cars up in series..I don't think they are going to like
24 volts..!" You get a lot of disbelieving looks, but eventually those
adults will do what you tell them.
It really pisses them off when a little kid knows more about it than they
do.....eventually(later in life) they just hire you to deal with the
problems... did you ever notice how hard it is when they are stumped and
have to ask for help... they tend to resent the help sometimes as it
challenges their egos....That is what I like most about this list..we all
seem to realize we don't know it all...(except me of course)....and how
nice it is to have someone to ask! I don't think I've ever seen any
arrogance or attitudes on this list.. no flame wars, no insults..just a lot
of good old help..and "do me a favor, show me where I'm wrong"!
Most people don't really have a clue about how this stuff works, in fact
most adults would probably benefit from a few hours with the "Electricity
board"..I know it formed the basis for my understanding of the
concepts....A/C and especially three phase caused a little head scratching
later in life, and those pesky PFM (pure F***Magic) electronics concepts
are just starting to emerge from the murk of my understanding! This Aero
Electric list has helped me greatly!
Anyway..
I realize this is an AIRPLANE internet group, but I figger if I can
learn the boy to make electronics himself, I have a shot at him not
becoming a useless consumer/know nothing type, and then, if he 'needs' an
aircraft..he'll have the necessary 'can do' attitude( I refer to it, and
myself as "too numb to be scared") and the skills it takes to make or
repair one.
I haven't built an aircraft, I bought a Bellanca Viking..I do a lot of the
maintenance on it, (personally pulled one of the jugs at the last annual
and ground the valves)and through the use of this website, have fixed
many(all actually..we can't have less than a working bird now can we?) of
the electrical problems that baffled the various ' FAA cerified expert
maintenance facilities".
Specifically to date these are some of the problems that this list has
helped me through:
1. the unstable charging system due to poor connections in the field
wire/master switch circuit.. A loose Fast-on was the worst culprit..tested
fine with continuity, but the resistance went up due to the loose
connection and vibration, and created instability in the regulator...That
one fooled all the other owners and shops for twenty years and several
thousand dollars of component replacement, according to the logs..I
personally had a shop replace the alternator, and I replaced the
regulator before I wised up and found the problem myself). I was on to
that one from figuring it out myself when I read the Aero-Electric website
article on Cessna split master switches, and gained a much better
understanding of what was going on.
2. The 'disappearing transponder return' ...Avionics shops told me "all
Vikings (cloth planes in general) have that problem..'Lectric Bob suggested
a 5.4" copper disc at the base of the antenna for a good ground
plane..stuck it on the ouside of the plane under the tail...Problem GONE!!
..There are a few other Vikings now flying with a copper disc ground plane
now as well...
3. My Century 1 Autopilot not following the heading bug (contact cleaner
at all the connections).
4. The MOSFET replacement in MY BMW heater control board..(well this stuff
is useful for more than just aircraft now isn't it?)
So I really do appreciate all you folks efforts here.. I think we have one
heck of a great list!
Thanks for the help, I need to look good for the kid here..he hasn't
figured out that I'm just a guy yet..still thinks I can do anything...and I
guess I would like to hold on to that for another few weeks at least!
Sorry for the long post, I was in a writing mood, and I warned you guys in
the header!
Dave Leonard N77FE '72 SuperViking 300 (with fully functioning electrical
system and avionics/autopilot)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> the 'electricity board', |
Off.topic(at)matronics.com,
long.and.rambling.with.social.commentary..@matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: How do I solder My son's x-mas present, |
the 'electricity board', Off topic,
long and rambling with social commentary..
the 'electricity board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary..
You have the answer already. As you said, just bridge the gap with
solder. You do not really have to solder to each part simultaneously -
put a "blob" on one part and another blob on the other part and then
reflow the solder a bit to connect them. Alternately, you can use short
pieces of wire to help connect the two parts - just soldered flat on the
boards. I suspect that this is also a structural connection so the
solder blobs is the best way. This is actually a fairly common
interconnection method is some consumer products. If the PCBs are
phenolic (brown) be careful of the soldering temperature.
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
David A. Leonard wrote:
board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary..
>
>Help!
>I have a toy for my 9 year old boy.. it's a kit, with a PCB, and a another
>PCB that solders to it. They both have tabs with silver contacts on them,
>the small PCB seems to fit into a slot on the motherboard, and the tabs
>align with each other on the back side of the motherboard. They meet at a
>ninety degree angle to each other, the tab with the connection solder leads
>sticks thru the motherboard. Kind of like this l_ , so it looks like I
>need to bridge the contacts.
>
>This contraption (The new component) needs to have various switches
>soldered to the board it a la our dear departed Heathkit catalog, and then
>a speaker and batteries..it eventually makes farm animal noises. (Does my
>heart good as it seems as though Heathkit is long gone!) I have soldered
>various components to boards in the past, but most had wires or leads that
>went thru the board, this is just tabs next to each other, like 8 on each
>board, with about 1mm separating the tabs. Do I just try to heat the
>adjacent tabs at the same time and flow some solder across the gap?
>
>My old man, (who is 74 , an orthopedic surgeon wannabe engineer..got into
>MIT right after WWII, and was told that if he went to Med school the army
>would pay for it and make him an officer...) got it for the 'electricity
>board' he built for the kid a few years ago..it is in for
>an overhaul/upgrade....(he did one for me in about 1963..I was three at
>the time..but there were no chips on that one). He couldn't figure out
>how to solder this new item, and decided I'd know how...
>
>By the way, the 'electricity board' is one of his coolest teaching
>inventions..it consists of a battery pack, a few DPDT knife type switches,
>a momentary on switch, a variable resistor, some LED's (my '63 model
>didn't have these), an electric motor with a propeller, a buzzer, some
>light bulbs, a horn, etc, , all mounted to a 12" x 18" plywood board. Also
>included with the set are ten or fifteen alligator clipped jumper leads, in
>red and black. Each component has its leads soldered to a terminal suitable
>for clipping an alligator clip jumper lead to it.
>
> From this basic bread board, we can teach all those neato concepts
>like..complete circuit, resistance, positive and negative, series,
>parallel, short circuit..you guys get the idea. You can hook it up in
>endless configurations.
>
> The only problem with this toy is that as the owner and beneficiary of
>it, you end up with some strange looks from the adults around you, when
>you are ten years old and you tell them that "you need to clean off the
>ground connections on this battery if you want your boat to
>start"...or "you better watch the polarity on those jumper cables, you are
>hooking your two cars up in series..I don't think they are going to like
>24 volts..!" You get a lot of disbelieving looks, but eventually those
>adults will do what you tell them.
>
>It really pisses them off when a little kid knows more about it than they
>do.....eventually(later in life) they just hire you to deal with the
>problems... did you ever notice how hard it is when they are stumped and
>have to ask for help... they tend to resent the help sometimes as it
>challenges their egos....That is what I like most about this list..we all
>seem to realize we don't know it all...(except me of course)....and how
>nice it is to have someone to ask! I don't think I've ever seen any
>arrogance or attitudes on this list.. no flame wars, no insults..just a lot
>of good old help..and "do me a favor, show me where I'm wrong"!
>
>Most people don't really have a clue about how this stuff works, in fact
>most adults would probably benefit from a few hours with the "Electricity
>board"..I know it formed the basis for my understanding of the
>concepts....A/C and especially three phase caused a little head scratching
>later in life, and those pesky PFM (pure F***Magic) electronics concepts
>are just starting to emerge from the murk of my understanding! This Aero
>Electric list has helped me greatly!
>
>Anyway..
>
>
> I realize this is an AIRPLANE internet group, but I figger if I can
>learn the boy to make electronics himself, I have a shot at him not
>becoming a useless consumer/know nothing type, and then, if he 'needs' an
>aircraft..he'll have the necessary 'can do' attitude( I refer to it, and
>myself as "too numb to be scared") and the skills it takes to make or
>repair one.
>
>I haven't built an aircraft, I bought a Bellanca Viking..I do a lot of the
>maintenance on it, (personally pulled one of the jugs at the last annual
>and ground the valves)and through the use of this website, have fixed
>many(all actually..we can't have less than a working bird now can we?) of
>the electrical problems that baffled the various ' FAA cerified expert
>maintenance facilities".
>
>Specifically to date these are some of the problems that this list has
>helped me through:
>
>1. the unstable charging system due to poor connections in the field
>wire/master switch circuit.. A loose Fast-on was the worst culprit..tested
>fine with continuity, but the resistance went up due to the loose
>connection and vibration, and created instability in the regulator...That
>one fooled all the other owners and shops for twenty years and several
>thousand dollars of component replacement, according to the logs..I
>personally had a shop replace the alternator, and I replaced the
>regulator before I wised up and found the problem myself). I was on to
>that one from figuring it out myself when I read the Aero-Electric website
>article on Cessna split master switches, and gained a much better
>understanding of what was going on.
>
>2. The 'disappearing transponder return' ...Avionics shops told me "all
>Vikings (cloth planes in general) have that problem..'Lectric Bob suggested
>a 5.4" copper disc at the base of the antenna for a good ground
>plane..stuck it on the ouside of the plane under the tail...Problem GONE!!
>..There are a few other Vikings now flying with a copper disc ground plane
>now as well...
>
>3. My Century 1 Autopilot not following the heading bug (contact cleaner
>at all the connections).
>
>4. The MOSFET replacement in MY BMW heater control board..(well this stuff
>is useful for more than just aircraft now isn't it?)
>
>So I really do appreciate all you folks efforts here.. I think we have one
>heck of a great list!
>
>Thanks for the help, I need to look good for the kid here..he hasn't
>figured out that I'm just a guy yet..still thinks I can do anything...and I
>guess I would like to hold on to that for another few weeks at least!
>
>Sorry for the long post, I was in a writing mood, and I warned you guys in
>the header!
>
>Dave Leonard N77FE '72 SuperViking 300 (with fully functioning electrical
>system and avionics/autopilot)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How do I solder My son's x-mas present, the 'electricity |
board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary..
>From: David A. Leonard (dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com) Sun Dec 28 - 7:45 PM
>Help!
>I have a toy for my 9 year old boy.. it's a kit, with a PCB, and a another
>PCB that solders to it. They both have tabs with silver contacts on them,
You can solder a hundred years and not discover the difference between 60%
tin-40% lead and 63% tin-37% lead solders. Most sources give the melting
points and that's that. But the real difference in tin-lead solders is far
more subtle: 60-40 solder has a small "mushy" temperature range. 63-37 goes
from solid to liquid with no mushy range at all (That's called eutectic).
The smaller the tin (first digit) the greater the mushy range. This is
important if there are gaps to bridge, and there always are.
When soldering sheetmetal or stained glass for example, you really want a
large range of mushy so you can stick a whole mess of solder onto the part
to fill gaps, so you might use 50-50, which has a liquid temperature of 461F
(maybe it's time for a propane torch) and a mushy range of 56F.
Why is 63-37 so common? It is shiny and pretty when it solidifies. This
makes assemblers proud. It is also great for solder plating PCBs for
example. The 60-40 solder solidifies like a wax--first the lead solidifies,
then a second later the tin solidifies. This leaves a hazy, frosted surface.
You can also remember:
1) Tin melts at a lower temperature than lead, improves wetability, costs
more, and is more flexible.
2) Lead melts at a much higher temperature, is poisonous, costs very little,
is stronger but easier to fatigue crack.
3) There is a great difference between solders of the same kind. Ersin is
very good, Alpha Metals has found its way into my junk box.
Dave--use 60-40.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Manual master switch |
Gary you've brought some of my thoughts to the surface which is usually
dangerous. The pros of a manual switch seem to be no holding current and
a bit of security/theft protection if it is hidden or at least not on
the panel.
Well it turns out that the massive but low cost metal unit sold by
Summit racing (and even cheaper at my local farm supply) is actually
heavier than an electric contactor.
Flaming River make some that look to be composite and lighter. One sells
for around US$80. complete with an 18" remote handle extension. Another
version has a removeble plastic key. However it is easier to provide
security with a small switch or in other ways.
If I hard wire my battery to the starter, same as when my car engine was
in its first life, then it seems that there is no particular need for a
large contactor anyway. A small 40 amp relay (or even two for
redundancy) would suffice for killing power to the distribution system.
And even they won't kill battery bus power to my two efi and ignition
computers.
Anyway I'm having trouble justifying the need for a battery contactor or
manual switch. Seems it wouldn't really kill power to very much of my
aircraft for crash protection etc. and I'd need one for each of two
batteries. Then there is the starter contactor which doesn't seem to add
much protection either. There are a lot of car fires but the heavy
battery to starter wire doesn't seem to be a problem in those, near as I
can figure. Please correct me if someone believes otherwise. Bob has
mentioned in the archives that he prefers to use a starter contactor
even with automotive starters like mine. Fewer connectors and lower
resistance between the alternator, battery, and starter is attractive
though.
Ok this is already long (which I hate to do as it tends to discourage
comments) but I might as well mention my 40 amp ND internal voltage
regulator alternator and my 20 amp John Deere PM alternator. Both have
been fitted with large pulleys to slow them and help limit max current
output. Do I add two more contactors for over voltage protection?
Well I'll load the PM alternator with always on lights/strobes and
perhaps a fuel pump. Do I really care if it runs away and stuffs a few
extra amps into the battery till I can get on the ground? An old flooded
battery would warm up and vent some electrolyte and shrug it off. Not
sure about a small RG battery. I need to be informed about the regulator
failure but I'm not as convinced that I need an active OV protection
contactor here. It could be done with a small 40 amp relay or the one
B&C sells though.
The 40 amp ND alternator was chosen for both weight and so that a
regulator failure would not result in a hundred amps being available as
in the car. Of course any voltage spikes have to be lower too with a
small unit. OV protection is probably a good idea here though since I am
planning to use small batteries and the efi will only stand so much ov.
Since we are thinking out of the box a bit, what about a normally open
relay that adds say 30 amps of load to that alternator in the event of
an ov. Switch in an electric windshield defroster or car heater perhaps?
That would control the ov situation but still leave enough power
available to run my engine for an unlimited time without even bothering
to switch to my redundant efi system powered from the PM alternator. And
a relay failure would only disable the ov protection whereas an ov
contactor failure or activation would kill the alternator output. Such
an approach also avoids extra connectors in the wire between the
alternator and battery.
Seems I might still want one heavy duty crossfeed contactor for engine
starting if I use two small batteries but those batteries actually cost
more than one large and one small battery... Cost is secondary here
though. Or it looks like my PM alternator will probably run fine with a
large capacitor and ov protection instead of a small battery...
Ken
>
> In a message dated 12/28/03 8:28:47 AM Central Standard Time,
> glcasey(at)adelphia.net writes:
> What are the pros/cons of using a manual master (battery) switch instead of
> the tradition relay contactor? It looks to me like the advantage is that it
> eliminates a failure mode and reduces the wiring complexity.
> Good Morning Gary,
>
> Just as further food for thought, have you considered using a manual switch
> operated by a mechanical mechanism?
>snip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
(snip)Well I'll load the PM alternator with always on lights/strobes and
perhaps a fuel pump. Do I really care if it runs away and stuffs a few
extra amps into the battery till I can get on the ground? An old flooded
battery would warm up and vent some electrolyte and shrug it off.
I know that you've thought long and hard about what your choices are. They
aren't mine. To make the choices you're talking about, I would want the
following answers:
What is the exact voltage produced if regulators fail?
What is the time that the items turned on will tolerate that voltage?
What is the amount of heat generated over the time of the overvoltage?
Is the higher internal resistance of a flooded battery worth it?
How much does this shorten the life of your battery?
Where are the gasses vented during the overcharge? (It's my understanding
that both electrolyte and hydrogen would be given off).
Even though it may be minimal, what is the extra weight needed to protect
structures and terminals from corrosion, and do I want to inspect all the
wires close by for corrosion?
Where does the electrolyte go if the battery is cracked in an accident?
If the pullys are running slower, how much electricity is generated at low
engine RPM's?
I know that some car fires are caused by accidents that have forced battery
terminals on to metal, shorting the battery itself. (I've seen that one,
but flames didn't break out, but there was enough smoke to be scary. The
wrong sized battery contributed to that one, and the accident jammed the
hood closed, so it took some tools to get the hood open and disconnect the
battery).
To me, I'd rather trust an O.V. crowbar circuit, R.G. battery, and
contactor.
Dan Branstrom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
>I know that some car fires are caused by accidents that have forced battery
>terminals on to metal, shorting the battery itself. (I've seen that one,
>but flames didn't break out, but there was enough smoke to be scary. The
>wrong sized battery contributed to that one, and the accident jammed the
>hood closed, so it took some tools to get the hood open and disconnect the
>battery).
My daughter lost her first car, a Honda Accord, to a battery that slipped
forward when she stopped and bumped a curb. The battery terminals
contacted the chassis and started a fire that she never noticed when she
got out of the car and walked away. The fire slowly engulfed the entire
compartment and "melted" the entire engine. Nobody noticed a thing hours
later, except that the hood looked a little darker than usual. The first
indication of a problem was when she got in again and tried to start the
car, and she couldn't push the clutch in because all the liquid had been
boiled out. No explosion, no raging blaze, no nothing. Just a completely
totalled vehicle.
Dave Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Mounting OVM-14? |
| From: | "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
I am collecting the parts to implement the ground power circuit that Bob recommends
but am at a bit of a loss about how the OVM-14 is mechanically mounted.
It doesn't appear that just putting ring terminals on the wires is sufficient
- would sticking it to the contactor with RTV do the trick? What have others
done?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Mounting OVM-14? |
>
>
>I am collecting the parts to implement the ground power circuit that Bob
>recommends but am at a bit of a loss about how the OVM-14 is mechanically
>mounted. It doesn't appear that just putting ring terminals on the wires
>is sufficient - would sticking it to the contactor with RTV do the
>trick? What have others done?
That would work. Or use a large diameter (1")
piece of heatshrink to support it by one of the
fat wires coming to or leaving the contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rino Lacombe" <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
> Anyway I'm having trouble justifying the need for a battery contactor or
> manual switch. Seems it wouldn't really kill power to very much of my
> aircraft for crash protection etc. and I'd need one for each of two
> batteries.
I use one and only one Master Switch (used on boats) in the ground circuit.
Theses switches are rated at 400 to 600 amps. Mine is from West Marine No.
335870
Then there is the starter contactor which doesn't seem to add
> much protection either. There are a lot of car fires but the heavy
> battery to starter wire doesn't seem to be a problem in those, near as I
> can figure. Please correct me if someone believes otherwise. Bob has
> mentioned in the archives that he prefers to use a starter contactor
> even with automotive starters like mine. Fewer connectors and lower
> resistance between the alternator, battery, and starter is attractive
> though.
>
> Ok this is already long (which I hate to do as it tends to discourage
> comments) but I might as well mention my 40 amp ND internal voltage
> regulator alternator and my 20 amp John Deere PM alternator. Both have
> been fitted with large pulleys to slow them and help limit max current
> output.
I think the larger pulleys do not limit max current, it only reduce rpm and
makes it easier on the alternator bearings.
> Seems I might still want one heavy duty crossfeed contactor for engine
> starting if I use two small batteries but those batteries actually cost
> more than one large and one small battery..
I have a small battery (17 AH) to start my engine, it is a Mazda rotary 13b
engine. That small battery is doing just fine. I use the second battery to
feed my electronics including the engine controller.
> Ken
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 Voltage Regulator Potential Overheating |
Hi Bob & fellow Listers,
Reached the point where I felt comfortable with my total system design
utilizing Z-13 & was placing the order with Tim at B&C today when the topic
of loading the SD-8 came up. When I indicated I had designed it for 8 amps
or less continuous, Tim informed me the regulator was designed for 2 to 3
amps continuous and would most likely fry at 8 amps unless some sort of
cooling was provided. If located in the cockpit, it should have additional
heatsinking and a fan would be a good idea, but there could be electrical
noise. If mounted on the firewall in the engine compartment there would be
less noise, but it would need substantial heat sinking, and/or a blast tube.
In an earlier response, Bob mentioned if loaded greater than 8 amps
continuous, a heat sink was necessary, or possibly a more robust regulator
like the KeyWest. I Google searched KeyWest and only found one hit, where
someone experienced regulator failure due to overheating with a Rotax & it
also destroyed their alternator. Also was not able to find the KeyWest
website. Anyone have its URL?
Does anyone have experience running the SD-8 continuously at 8 amps? Unless
I have overlooked something, neither the installation instructions for the
SD-8 nor Z-13 mention heat sinks or blast tubes. Am I missing something or
might Z-13 users experience regulator overheating if their main alternators
fail? (according to Tim, the stuff inside the regulator housing starts to
ooze out when overheated)
Thank you in advance for your assistance with this issue. I have put my
order on hold until I have a better understanding.
Scott, RV7A
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Source for an AIM artificial horizon |
Hi Bob and all,
Does anyone know of a reliable source for a used AIM 1100 electric
artificial horizon (14 V, tilt preferably 4.5) ?
Any info appreciated.
Thanks,
Gilles Thesee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RVEIGHTA(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Microair 760 intercom |
Bob/all: The built-in intercom of my Microair 760 transceiver is so noisy at
normal cruise speeds that It's almost impossible to carry on a conversation
with my passenger. The radio is installed in an RV-8A which is notoriously
noisy.
I recently purchased a Softcom intercom which comes with a wiring harness.
Several wires from the intercom ( mic key, headset audio and mic audio) go to
the radio, while the other wires are to connect to the headphone & mic jacks.
Since I already have the jack wired up, using your wiring harness and wiring
diagram, will I need to rewire the jacks using the wiring provided with the
intercom? By the way, none of the IC jack wires are shielded.
Any suggestions are appreciated......
Walt Shipley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
>
>Gary you've brought some of my thoughts to the surface which is usually
>dangerous. The pros of a manual switch seem to be no holding current and
>a bit of security/theft protection if it is hidden or at least not on
>the panel.
>
>Well it turns out that the massive but low cost metal unit sold by
>Summit racing (and even cheaper at my local farm supply) is actually
>heavier than an electric contactor.
>
>Flaming River make some that look to be composite and lighter. One sells
>for around US$80. complete with an 18" remote handle extension. Another
> version has a removeble plastic key. However it is easier to provide
>security with a small switch or in other ways.
>
>If I hard wire my battery to the starter, same as when my car engine was
>in its first life, then it seems that there is no particular need for a
>large contactor anyway. A small 40 amp relay (or even two for
>redundancy) would suffice for killing power to the distribution system.
>And even they won't kill battery bus power to my two efi and ignition
>computers.
What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How
do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation
of an unplanned arrival with the earth?
>Anyway I'm having trouble justifying the need for a battery contactor or
>manual switch. Seems it wouldn't really kill power to very much of my
>aircraft for crash protection etc. and I'd need one for each of two
>batteries. Then there is the starter contactor which doesn't seem to add
>much protection either. There are a lot of car fires but the heavy
>battery to starter wire doesn't seem to be a problem in those, near as I
>can figure. Please correct me if someone believes otherwise. Bob has
>mentioned in the archives that he prefers to use a starter contactor
>even with automotive starters like mine. Fewer connectors and lower
>resistance between the alternator, battery, and starter is attractive
>though.
How much is "fewer" and "lower" in comparison with
the total and how would you perceive the difference
if you had no prior knowledge of what "more" and
"higher" was?
>Ok this is already long (which I hate to do as it tends to discourage
>comments) but I might as well mention my 40 amp ND internal voltage
>regulator alternator and my 20 amp John Deere PM alternator. Both have
>been fitted with large pulleys to slow them and help limit max current
>output. Do I add two more contactors for over voltage protection?
Why did you cripple some perfectly good alternators? What is
the advantage of slowing down an alternator that runs most
happily at high rpm? The BIG downside for generators was low
output at idle and taxi RPMs but if you put a smaller pulley
on them, the brushes would wear faster. When alternators
came along, all the downsides went away but you have brought
them back . . .
>Well I'll load the PM alternator with always on lights/strobes and
>perhaps a fuel pump. Do I really care if it runs away and stuffs a few
>extra amps into the battery till I can get on the ground?
Are you planning to call the runaway condition an "emergency"
or a "maintenance event"? An airplane fitted with sufficient
controls, notification of failure and options for alternative
operating modes means that which drive the pucker factor up
in spam-can pilots is no big deal for an OBAM aircraft pilot.
> An old flooded
>battery would warm up and vent some electrolyte and shrug it off. Not
>sure about a small RG battery. I need to be informed about the regulator
>failure but I'm not as convinced that I need an active OV protection
>contactor here. It could be done with a small 40 amp relay or the one
>B&C sells though.
>
>The 40 amp ND alternator was chosen for both weight and so that a
>regulator failure would not result in a hundred amps being available as
>in the car.
Don't understand. A runaway alternator is never capable of
delivering lots of amps over and above the nameplate rating.
They are ALL capable of delivering lots of volts . . . 100
or more in cruise rpm with the small pulley of choice. This
is what ov protection is about.
> Of course any voltage spikes have to be lower too with a
>small unit.
Define "spike", where it's generated. How long does it
last and how much energy does it contain? This term is stirred
into every worried discussion about electrical systems with
complete lack of understanding about what it is, where it
comes from and how a system may be configured so that for
the most part it will not exist. In the world of
cookie-cutter certified ships and FAA approved flight
schools, pilots have neither the knowledge or the options
of using their knowledge to improve the machines they
fly. None the less, many of our brethren in the OBAM aircraft
community carry this baggage with them into the world
where the finest aircraft to have ever existed are built.
>OV protection is probably a good idea here though since I am
>planning to use small batteries and the efi will only stand so much ov.
>Since we are thinking out of the box a bit, what about a normally open
>relay that adds say 30 amps of load to that alternator in the event of
>an ov.
How about shutting off the offending alternator in case
of an ov condition?
> Switch in an electric windshield defroster or car heater perhaps?
>That would control the ov situation but still leave enough power
>available to run my engine for an unlimited time without even bothering
>to switch to my redundant efi system powered from the PM alternator. And
>a relay failure would only disable the ov protection whereas an ov
>contactor failure or activation would kill the alternator output. Such
>an approach also avoids extra connectors in the wire between the
>alternator and battery.
What is the service history of "extra connectors" between
the alternator and battery. How many connections have you had
to repair on your automobile or any other vehicle? Suppose
a lead between the alternator becomes disconnected, how is
this any more likely or how is the result any different
than a wire coming unhooked in the regulator or somewhere
else in the system so as to make the alternator unusable?
Would it not be better to design your system for "failure
tolerance" . . . a system that offers a plan-b alternative
to failure of ANY component?
>Seems I might still want one heavy duty crossfeed contactor for engine
>starting if I use two small batteries but those batteries actually cost
>more than one large and one small battery... Cost is secondary here
>though. Or it looks like my PM alternator will probably run fine with a
>large capacitor and ov protection instead of a small battery...
Instead of taking an egg beater to the experience base
of that which has gone before us, may I suggest that
you consider the suite of z-drawings and find one that
most closely matches your perceived needs. Let then
consider together how that system falls short. It may
be that some modification of the architecture described
is in order . . . or perhaps even a new architecture
is called for. Let's discuss your perceptions of worrisome
events and sort them into two piles: (1) ol' mechanic's
tales/hangar legends and (2) real threats which we'll
address by considered design and mitigating operating
techniques.
The goal is to configure a system about which you have
NO worries and an operating philosophy that virtually
guarantees that you complete a leg of a mission all
the way to airport of intended destination without
breaking a sweat.
I'm confident that you'll find that many of your concerns
are not founded upon good science and once you understand
how your system of choice works, your confidence level
will raise markedly. More important, your system reliability
(of which the pilot is a critical component) will stand
head-and-shoulders above that of certified aviation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Architecture questions for an RV7 |
>Bob,
>
>I am building an RV 7 using all B&C electrical products, including
>the 60A alternator and 20A vacuum pad mounted alternator and
>SB1-14 and LR3C-14 voltage regulators. The architecture includes
>a separate battery master switch and individual alternator field
>switches. (I am using one of your main bus/essential bus architectures
>with dual alternators, diode feed to the essential bus and alternate
>switched path to the essential bus. This arrangement is as shown in
>skeleton figure 17-2 of your Aero Electric Connection manual
>rev 10 dated Nov 2001).
First, why are you installing two big alternators?
How do you plan to use this airplane and how is it
going to be equipped? For this combination of alternators,
Figure Z-14 is the system of choice for folks who
NEED this much engine generated power.
>I have what seems like a trivial question: If I have a main bus
>fault for example, is there any importance as to the order of
>opening/closing the battery master and essential bus switches.
>If not why can't the essential bus alternative feed switch be
>replaced by a direct connection? If I close the essential bus feed
>switch by accident whilst the battery master switch is still closed
>are there any implications?
"Faults" to the bus are so rare as to be unworthy
of procedural consideration. The philosophy of the
architecture in Figure 17-2 (and Z-11) is to provide
(1) an alternative feed path for power to electrically
powered items that will essentially insure comfortable
arrival at airport of intended destination and (2) provide
a way to reduce en route loads during battery only operation
to a value that compliments goal (1) cited above.
If you have two engine driven power sources in the
form of 40+ and 20A machines, en route energy conservation
is not an issue. Therefore, it seems more practical to
consider figures 17-5 and Z-14. But first things
first, why have you selected this particular pair
of alternators?
>Apologies if the following questions should be addressed to B&C I am not
>sure of their e-mail address?
>
>
>If I open the battery master switch without opening the alternator field
>switches first, will this have any detrimental effect on the alternators?
If wired per any of the Z-figures with a 2-10 master switch,
this issues is mute. The switch is configured to bring
the alternator on last and off first. Unless you've specifically
designed and tested your proposed system for alternator
only performance, operation without a battery is
an iffy proposition and not recommended.
>Are there any other circumstances when using your voltage regulators and
>alternators that can damage either of them by incorrect operation of the
>battery master switch and/or the individual field switches. For example,
>by opening a field switch with the engine running and the battery master
>switch closed ? I should perhaps mention that I am asking this question
>because there are dire warnings in some Automobile maintenance manuals,
>and indeed on an American Web site dealing with some marine installations,
>that an engine must on no account be run without the battery being
>connected else alternator damage may ensue as a result of a rise of output
>voltage to 100V or so. But this advice may not apply to your arrangements ?
It sure does . . . that's what drove the configurations
described in Appendix Z.
>I plan to use the battery temp sensors on both regulators. This option is
>not shown on the SB1-14 regulator. Is this available and if so are the
>connections to pins 1&6 as per the LR3C-14
No, the temperature sensor is useful in very few
situations and not recommended unless you plan to
spend long legs of a trip at 25,000 feet on oxygen
where you might cold-soak a battery.
>I want to keep my instrument panel as neat as possible! I have
>standardised all my warning and indicator lights as high intensity LEDs
>with internal dropping resistors. Can I use one of these in place of your
>supplied low voltage warning filament lamp on the LR3C-14?
Yes, see http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/LV_Led.jpg
>I am also planning to be able to test all the warning lamps on my panel
>with a single push to test button, applying a ground or 12v as
>appropriate. For the alternator warning lights I was planning on using a
>relay to temporarily disconnect the low voltage warning light from pin 5
>on the regulator and connect to ground therefore placing 12v from the main
>bus across the light to test its operation. Is this ok?
If you're using LEDs throughout, I wouldn't bother about PTT. The
life of an LED is so high that you're MUCH more likely to loose
functionality of an annunciator for reasons that are not tested
by your PTT system. Keep the parts count down and check list shorter
by leaving this low-value feature off.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 intercom |
>
>Bob/all: The built-in intercom of my Microair 760 transceiver is so noisy at
>normal cruise speeds that It's almost impossible to carry on a conversation
>with my passenger. The radio is installed in an RV-8A which is notoriously
>noisy.
A hot mic intercom depends on GOOD noise cancelling microphones
unless you use the intercom push-to-talk feature. If you
have the ptt feature in place, the 760's intercom feature will
be no better/worse than any system.
>I recently purchased a Softcom intercom which comes with a wiring harness.
>Several wires from the intercom (mic key, headset audio and mic audio) go to
>the radio, while the other wires are to connect to the headphone & mic jacks.
>
>Since I already have the jack wired up, using your wiring harness and wiring
>diagram, will I need to rewire the jacks using the wiring provided with the
>intercom? By the way, none of the IC jack wires are shielded.
I suggest you wire in accordance with the diagram
supplied with the intercom.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( A beginning of the end is marked by )
( replacement of experience and common )
( sense with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Overheating |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Voltage Regulator Potential |
Overheating
Overheating
>
>
>Hi Bob & fellow Listers,
>
> Reached the point where I felt comfortable with my total system
> design
>utilizing Z-13 & was placing the order with Tim at B&C today when the topic
>of loading the SD-8 came up. When I indicated I had designed it for 8 amps
>or less continuous, Tim informed me the regulator was designed for 2 to 3
>amps continuous and would most likely fry at 8 amps unless some sort of
>cooling was provided. If located in the cockpit, it should have additional
>heatsinking and a fan would be a good idea, but there could be electrical
>noise. If mounted on the firewall in the engine compartment there would be
>less noise, but it would need substantial heat sinking, and/or a blast tube.
This is a new one on me! I'll have to look into this.
> In an earlier response, Bob mentioned if loaded greater than 8 amps
>continuous, a heat sink was necessary, or possibly a more robust regulator
>like the KeyWest. I Google searched KeyWest and only found one hit, where
>someone experienced regulator failure due to overheating with a Rotax & it
>also destroyed their alternator. Also was not able to find the KeyWest
>website. Anyone have its URL?
I've not heard much about Key West lately. It was a really
popular regulator for Rotax systems for folks building
Pulsars and Kitfoxes and it was mentioned a lot when I belonged
to those lists years ago.
>Does anyone have experience running the SD-8 continuously at 8 amps? Unless
>I have overlooked something, neither the installation instructions for the
>SD-8 nor Z-13 mention heat sinks or blast tubes. Am I missing something or
>might Z-13 users experience regulator overheating if their main alternators
>fail? (according to Tim, the stuff inside the regulator housing starts to
>ooze out when overheated)
This is a mind-blower . . . there are many hundreds of SD-8's
flying as the ONLY source of engine driven power. If they've
had problems with regulator performance, I've been unaware of
it. Based on this, I've shown the SD-8 as a really useful
and reliable second source in Figure Z-13 . . . if this is
NOT the case, then I've got a lot of explaining to do to a hundred
or more builders who have installed Z-13.
Watch this space!
>Thank you in advance for your assistance with this issue. I have put my
>order on hold until I have a better understanding.
Good idea . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: manual master switches, over-voltage controllers |
<>
Ken, I find your comments to be logical. It seems to me that much of the
complexity found in an aircraft system has to do with safety AFTER a
failure, not preventing failures. In fact the extra components almost
require that the system be less reliable than it could otherwise be. Your
theory is to provide a switch to take power away from everything except the
starter, just as in a car. Sounds logical unless you desire a redundant
method of shutting off the starter. Redundant shut-offs are no good unless
you have some way to shut off the starter anyway. One good way to shut off
the starter without a seperate switch is to shut off the engine. The
battery will soon be dead, which is no problem. Are mechanical master
switches heavier than contactors? Perhaps, but you have to include the
extra wires and master switch. You plan to use two alternators of modest
capacity to power the system as I have considered. Sounds logical to me.
What's the potential problem caused by a shorted regulator leading to an
over-voltage condition? I don't know, but I have heard alarmists say that a
fully charged battery will not accept the current, leading to a
"dangerously" high voltage in milliseconds, which I don't believe. I'm sure
one wants to have a way to disconnect the alternator output from the system,
but why can't that be a manual switch, triggered by an over-voltage alarm
and activated by a human? The advantage of doing it this way would be that
the human involved could then to turn the alternator back on periodically to
recharge the battery. OV systems, once they detect and over-voltage
condition, usually don't allow an override, no matter how desperate the
pilot. Battery venting considerations? Wet batteries should be vented
anyway, and I would expect that after an over-voltage episode one would
certainly inspect the battery area for problems and perhaps throw away the
battery. No problem.
Adding complexity to increase flight SAFETY is a laudable activity. Adding
complexity to reduce the COST of a failure mode is questionable. The extra
complexity increases the likelihood of a failure and must get paid for up
front to be carried with the airplane its whole life even if there is never
a failure. I have heard a second contactor in series with the starter
solenoid (in series with the master contactor) justified by the fact that IF
the starter solenoid fails in the "on" position the starter can be shut off
with the starter contactor, avoiding having to recharge the battery after a
stuck starter event. Not a good justification.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Manual master switch- OV protection |
Rino
I'll think about the ground contactor idea. That's a new one for me.
I can't provide facts but I am under the impression that another
possible minor benefit of slowing an alternator is that it runs a bit
cooler which may make the regulator/diodes a touch more reliable. I've
been told that above the rpm for rated current, internal losses and heat
generation go up faster than additional cooling and the unit is less
efficient. Someone may know if that is true or significant at all.
Interestingly now that RG batteries are common, I think of your 17AH
battery as a largish battery rather than a small battery for a
homebuilt. With two alternators I've considered going as small as two
5AH, 4.4 lb, ATP ultrastart red batteries- (with a crossfeed contactor
and OV protection ;) )
Dan
I absolutely agree that RG batteries are the way to go. I am unfamiliar
with what happens when they are overcharged though and don't want to
make assumptions about that. OV situations are rare enough that I would
consider a ruined battery to be an acceptable outcome providing there
were no additional in flight risks from it. Many batteries won't survive
a deep discharge after disconnecting the alternator anyway so an ov
disconnect contactor does not have a clear economic advantage from that
perspective. I really think the concept of automatic ov protection that
applies additional load (rather than disconnecting the alternator) has
some advantages for systems with smallish alternators. More so for
systems with only one alternator. Checking the power consumption of the
heater in some 12 volt windshield defrosters is on my to do list since
I need a defroster fan anyway.
thank you for the comments gentlemen
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | No Electric Starter/System Ques |
Bob, in a thread while I was away over Christmas, you answered the following
question thus:
>MAIN ALTERNATOR OUTPUT
>
>1. ? Without a starter contactor will the output of the main 50 amp
>alternator go to the
> 60-anl on the firewall and then to the post of the Main Bus Fuse
>Block?
Yes, but mount the ANL-60 as close to Main Bus as practical.
That interested me since in another context I had been wondering about ANL
location. I was puzzling why in Z-24 the ANL was shown downstream of the
internally regulated alternator isolation contactor. My thinking was that by
having it close to the alternator it would blow if anything (including the
isolation contactor) ran amok downstream.
What is the advantage of having it at the main bus end ?
Thanks, Steve.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Voltage Regulator Potential Overheating |
> Overheating
>
> >
> >
> >Hi Bob & fellow Listers,
> >
> > Reached the point where I felt comfortable with my total system
> > design
> >utilizing Z-13 & was placing the order with Tim at B&C today when the topic
> >of loading the SD-8 came up. When I indicated I had designed it for 8 amps
> >or less continuous, Tim informed me the regulator was designed for 2 to 3
> >amps continuous and would most likely fry at 8 amps unless some sort of
> >cooling was provided. If located in the cockpit, it should have additional
> >heatsinking and a fan would be a good idea, but there could be electrical
> >noise. If mounted on the firewall in the engine compartment there would be
> >less noise, but it would need substantial heat sinking, and/or a blast tube.
>
> This is a new one on me! I'll have to look into this.
I've been in touch with folks at B&C . . . Tim is sending
me an SD-8 regulator for some thermal dynamics studies in
our shop. I'll be developing some recommendations for either
redesign of the regulator or expanded installation instructions
or both. Can't move in the right direction until I have data.
Folks at B&C will be the first to know . . . folks here on
the 'list will be next . . .
Bob . . .
By the way. The situation surrounding failures on the SD-20
series alternators seems . . . I say again SEEMS to center
on a limited number of installations on a specific engines
and aircraft.
Failures on these aircraft have involved several
structural issues with respect to the alternator in addition
to the cracked mounting flange initially discussed here.
These are really off-the-wall things that have not been seen
on any other installation EVER. When details are fully
uncovered, we'll make you all aware of them . . . In
the mean time, initial indications are that 99.9% of
users of the SD-20 or its close cousins have no cause
for concern.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
In re: manual switches vs. contactors.
Bob, back to the original topic of manual (say, knife or similar) switches vs.
contactors, I'd appreciate your opinion on this core concept. It happens that
my layout would be conducive to such an arrangement, and aside from
"necessary" or "helpful" requirements, I'd like to know if you have anything
specific against manual switches designed for high current loads.
The only things I can think of that might matter are:
1. A contactor adds to the current load to keep it closed.
2. A contactor provides a sealed switching environment.
3. During a power failure, a contactor will open automatically.
4. A contactor can theoretically refuse to release, although I've never
actually seen this happen in practice.
Are there any other relevant arguments for or against?
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Manual master switch |
The attraction of a manual battery switch is that it eliminates some
parts and requires no battery current to keep closed. These same
features are found in the alternate feed path recommended for an
endurance bus. If you really want to consider replacing the big battery
contactor with a manual switch, it seems to me that the main
consideration would be the location of the battery, and the close
proximity of the master switch/contactor to the battery. Heavy-duty
manual switches capable of replacing the master contactor are available
sealed or unsealed, and with or without removable keys. If you can
place it next to the battery and still easily reach it, I don't see any
downside. If you have to mount it a distance from the battery in order
to reach it, you are compromising the crash safety that the master
disconnect provides. You may justify it because you have a composite
fuselage or because you are willing to accept more risk. Whatever the
reason, you are free to make your own decision because it is an OBAM
aircraft.
Dave Swartzendruber
>
> In re: manual switches vs. contactors.
>
> The only things I can think of that might matter are:
> 1. A contactor adds to the current load to keep it closed.
> 2. A contactor provides a sealed switching environment.
A manual switch can too.
> 3. During a power failure, a contactor will open automatically.
Are you sure?
> 4. A contactor can theoretically refuse to release, although I've
never
> actually seen this happen in practice.
>
> Are there any other relevant arguments for or against?
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | No Electric Starter/System Ques |
>
>
>Bob, in a thread while I was away over Christmas, you answered the following
>question thus:
>
> >MAIN ALTERNATOR OUTPUT
> >
> >1. ? Without a starter contactor will the output of the main 50 amp
> >alternator go to the
> > 60-anl on the firewall and then to the post of the Main Bus Fuse
> >Block?
>
> Yes, but mount the ANL-60 as close to Main Bus as practical.
>
>That interested me since in another context I had been wondering about ANL
>location. I was puzzling why in Z-24 the ANL was shown downstream of the
>internally regulated alternator isolation contactor. My thinking was that by
>having it close to the alternator it would blow if anything (including the
>isolation contactor) ran amok downstream.
>
>What is the advantage of having it at the main bus end ?
The ANL limiter (fat fuse) is there to protect the alternator
b-lead wire . . . the source of energy that places this wire
at risk is NOT the alternator but the battery. An alternator
is incapable of putting out enough current to open its own
b-lead protection while the battery is capable of fat-wire
faults approaching 1000 amps. So, while selecting the SIZE of the
protection device is driven by alternator output capability,
selecting LOCATION is associated with the risk source . . .
the BATTERY.
On some occasions, we have fat wires that can source a fault
from either end . . . in which case, you might have a limiter
at both ends of the same conductor. However, I've never
encountered a situation like this for small aircraft.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Manual master switch |
>
>
>The attraction of a manual battery switch is that it eliminates some
>parts and requires no battery current to keep closed. These same
>features are found in the alternate feed path recommended for an
>endurance bus. If you really want to consider replacing the big battery
>contactor with a manual switch, it seems to me that the main
>consideration would be the location of the battery, and the close
>proximity of the master switch/contactor to the battery. Heavy-duty
>manual switches capable of replacing the master contactor are available
>sealed or unsealed, and with or without removable keys. If you can
>place it next to the battery and still easily reach it, I don't see any
>downside. If you have to mount it a distance from the battery in order
>to reach it, you are compromising the crash safety that the master
>disconnect provides. You may justify it because you have a composite
>fuselage or because you are willing to accept more risk. Whatever the
>reason, you are free to make your own decision because it is an OBAM
>aircraft.
>
>Dave Swartzendruber
An excellent response. Thanks Dave. I would only add
that manual battery switches offer the greatest attraction
to builders with limited alternator capacity. If an SD-8
or even a Rotax 18A PM alternator on a 912/914 is your
only engine driven power source, it MIGHT (depending on
your load analysis) be helpful to apply approx 1A of
no-value-added contactor current to other more useful
tasks.
This is not a new concept. A Tri-Pacer I took dual
instruction in 40 years ago had the battery mounted
under right front passenger seat. Master switch was
a manual device mounted on the seat support rail. An
equally manual starter engage switch was also located
near by. Using a contactor is a convenience issue
of having all controls centralized on the panel or
when the battery is so remote from the pilot position
that direct manual switching is unattractive.
I had some builders years ago fabricate manual devices
from NASCAR battery switches. They took the stock knob
off and fabricated a belcrank that would translate
push-pull motion of a Bowden control into necessary
rotary motion for switch operation. One caveat here,
make it a PULL for OFF architecture. If a Bowden control
is at risk of not working, it's mostly during a PUSH
motion that might buckle some portion of the mechanism.
The function that really needs to work the first time
every time when your pucker factor is rising is to
turn the battery OFF. Making the control operate in
tension for the off function increases probability
of proper operation.
Here's some exemplar devices:
http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/T138%20Battery.PDF
Be prepared to spend as much or more for one
of these switches as you will for a contactor.
As I recall, the original poster had a 40A or larger
main alternator which makes load issues moot since
the battery contactor is normally OFF and not drawing
power during battery only or battery+SD8 operations.
I'd stay with the contactor . . . they've done a
really fine job for a lot of years in a whole lot
of airplanes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net> |
Hi Bob,
I am using Aeroflash strobes on my RV7. I was thinking of using a terminal block
to make the wiring more manageable. Can I use a terminal block to link all of
the remotely mounted power supplies and then run one wire from the T block to
the switch panel? If so what gauge would you recommend from the T block to the
switch? Same with the position lights?
Part two- I am mounting my head phone and mic jacks behind the seats. Is there
any down side to using a T block for this purpose again to ease the wiring runs?
And, can the ground wire from the mic jack and phone jack be combined?
Thanks,
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch- OV protection |
>
>Rino
>
>I'll think about the ground contactor idea. That's a new one for me.
>
>I can't provide facts but I am under the impression that another
>possible minor benefit of slowing an alternator is that it runs a bit
>cooler which may make the regulator/diodes a touch more reliable. I've
>been told that above the rpm for rated current, internal losses and heat
>generation go up faster than additional cooling and the unit is less
>efficient. Someone may know if that is true or significant at all.
If we're talking about certified 1960's trash flying in most
spam cans, there might be a grain of fact to this . . . Today,
you can install a NiponDenso alternator with a track record
of 15 years, 2 to 3 thousand installations and what must by
now be a half million flight hours . . . all of the concerns
cited are non-issues.
>Interestingly now that RG batteries are common, I think of your 17AH
>battery as a largish battery rather than a small battery for a
>homebuilt. With two alternators I've considered going as small as two
>5AH, 4.4 lb, ATP ultrastart red batteries- (with a crossfeed contactor
>and OV protection ;)
I recommend the 17 a.h. battery for its VALUE. Smaller batteries
with engine cranking ability are out there but they're not
cheap. If one is interested in ultimate battery reliability
then using the 17 a.h. package at $40 a pop and rotating out
yearly gives you battery-only energy storage options that
are difficult to beat for the money.
>Dan
>I absolutely agree that RG batteries are the way to go. I am unfamiliar
>with what happens when they are overcharged though and don't want to
>make assumptions about that. OV situations are rare enough that I would
>consider a ruined battery to be an acceptable outcome providing there
>were no additional in flight risks from it.
A properly handled ov condition with a large alternator lasts less
than a second. With a small PM alternator, it could stretch out in
time depending on loads. What architecture are we considering here?
Is the small PM alternator the only engine driven power source?
> Many batteries won't survive
>a deep discharge after disconnecting the alternator anyway . . .
Only a poorly maintained battery will not survive a deep discharge
cycle. If your battery is less than a year old and has never
been left to die after deep discharge, then it's capacity during
an alternator-out event is a given.
> . . . so an ov
>disconnect contactor does not have a clear economic advantage from that
>perspective. I really think the concept of automatic ov protection that
>applies additional load (rather than disconnecting the alternator) has
>some advantages for systems with smallish alternators.
Adding load to contain an ov event is not recommended for any
size alternator. It's so easy to just shut it off . . . why
not?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: manual master switches, over-voltage controllers |
>
>
>Anyway I'm having trouble justifying the need for a battery contactor or
>manual switch.>>
>
>Ken, I find your comments to be logical. It seems to me that much of the
>complexity found in an aircraft system has to do with safety AFTER a
>failure, not preventing failures. In fact the extra components almost
>require that the system be less reliable than it could otherwise be. Your
>theory is to provide a switch to take power away from everything except the
>starter, just as in a car. Sounds logical unless you desire a redundant
>method of shutting off the starter.
Had two customers in years past try to set their airplanes on
fire after a direct connected starter contactor stuck and they
couldn't shut them off . . .
> Redundant shut-offs are no good unless
>you have some way to shut off the starter anyway.
Don't understand . . .
> One good way to shut off
>the starter without a seperate switch is to shut off the engine. The
>battery will soon be dead, which is no problem.
Unless it smokes the starter or melts a hole in the side of the
battery . . .
> Are mechanical master
>switches heavier than contactors?
Yes, generally . . .
> Perhaps, but you have to include the
>extra wires and master switch. You plan to use two alternators of modest
how big is "modest"
>capacity to power the system as I have considered. Sounds logical to me.
>What's the potential problem caused by a shorted regulator leading to an
>over-voltage condition? I don't know, but I have heard alarmists say that a
>fully charged battery will not accept the current, leading to a
>"dangerously" high voltage in milliseconds, which I don't believe.
Please do believe. I've been designing and building ov protection
systems for aircraft since 1974. Somewhere in the archives I can
dig out chart recordings of how fast the bus voltage takes off
for the moon when the regulator craps . . . it's amazing.
> I'm sure
>one wants to have a way to disconnect the alternator output from the system,
>but why can't that be a manual switch, triggered by an over-voltage alarm
>and activated by a human?
How fast are you?
> The advantage of doing it this way would be that
>the human involved could then to turn the alternator back on periodically to
>recharge the battery.
How about carrying enough battery to supply minimal
loads that make sure you get where you are going in
spite of alternator. Turning the alternator back on
is like pushing in a circuit breaker. Do you want to
give the broken system a SECOND chance to set you on
fire?
> OV systems, once they detect and over-voltage
>condition, usually don't allow an override, no matter how desperate the
>pilot.
This is not true of any ov system I've seen.
ALL will allow pilot reset at will.
Why desperate? Check out
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf
and lets see if we can configure a system that will
never cause to break a sweat. Convective weather
and ice are desperate situations. There is no
reason for electrical systems to be desperate too.
>Battery venting considerations?
RG batteries don't need a box. Strap them down in
an open tray and hook 'em up. Save the weight and
labor for other, more useful parts of the airplane.
>Adding complexity to increase flight SAFETY is a laudable activity. Adding
>complexity to reduce the COST of a failure mode is questionable. The extra
>complexity increases the likelihood of a failure and must get paid for up
>front to be carried with the airplane its whole life even if there is never
>a failure. I have heard a second contactor in series with the starter
>solenoid (in series with the master contactor) justified by the fact that IF
>the starter solenoid fails in the "on" position the starter can be shut off
>with the starter contactor, avoiding having to recharge the battery after a
>stuck starter event. Not a good justification.
Starters are not designed to run at operational
loads for minutes. Recall that it may take two or
three minutes for a 17 a.h. battery to stop
rotating an engine with a stuck contactor. I've
not tested this condition to gather data but two
I know builders have. One melted a hole in the battery case.
His starter still functioned after the event but
it had certainly spent a bunch of its nine lives.
I don't recall outcome details of the other event.
Whether you install a battery master contactor
or manual disconnect switch, please consider having
it control starter supply power as well.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: manual master switches, over-voltage controllers |
>capacity to power the system as I have considered. Sounds logical to me.
>What's the potential problem caused by a shorted regulator leading to an
>over-voltage condition? I don't know, but I have heard alarmists say that
a
>fully charged battery will not accept the current, leading to a
>"dangerously" high voltage in milliseconds, which I don't believe.
Please do believe. I've been designing and building ov protection
systems for aircraft since 1974. Somewhere in the archives I can
dig out chart recordings of how fast the bus voltage takes off
for the moon when the regulator craps . . . it's amazing.
> I'm sure
>one wants to have a way to disconnect the alternator output from the
system,
>but why can't that be a manual switch, triggered by an over-voltage alarm
>and activated by a human?
How fast are you?
---------------------------
I just became a big believer in OV protection, friend of mine at the airport
just bought an RV-6, and on the flight home, the regulator shorted out, and
the voltage went high. fried the voltmeter and oil pressure guages, and the
power supplies to the GPS/Com and Xponder. Simple OV protection would have
saved him a *bunch* of $$
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Horizontal Contactor |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
I hope to install the contactor tomorrow.
Hi Bob and All,
Quick question. Is there any concern about mounting a battery contactor with
the coil tube in the horizontal position? Given the pounding that our
seaplane will take on the water I wondered if there was any problem with the
coil holding the contact bar in a horizontal position verses pulling it down
while in a vertical position.
Thanks,
Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Phone/Mic Jack Connector |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
Hi Bob and All,
We plan to put two cigar power jacks and the pilot's and co-pilot's phone
and mic jacks between the pilot and co-pilot seats in a "small console".
This console will need to be removed during annual inspection and therefore
will need a disconnect.
Are there any special considerations in selecting a connector because of the
the phone and mic jacks? I am thinking Molex? Possibly D-sub?
Thanks,
Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Phone/Mic Jack Connector |
I have a similar console for the back seat in my RV-8. I was planning
to just unscrew the nuts that secure the power jack and mic/phone jacks
as needed when removing the console. That won't work in your situation?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Boardman [mailto:dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 8:37 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Phone/Mic Jack Connector
>
>
> -->
>
> Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
>
> Hi Bob and All,
>
> We plan to put two cigar power jacks and the pilot's and
> co-pilot's phone and mic jacks between the pilot and co-pilot
> seats in a "small console". This console will need to be
> removed during annual inspection and therefore will need a disconnect.
>
> Are there any special considerations in selecting a connector
> because of the
> the phone and mic jacks? I am thinking Molex? Possibly D-sub?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
I have Bob's OVM-14 Over Voltage Protection module for my internally
regulated alternator installed in my plane. What's the easiest way to
test it & verify I've installed it correctly?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Phone/Mic Jack Connector |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Hi Larry,
Unscrewing the jacks will not work in my situation. An additional panel
below needs to be removed.
Thanks,
Don B.
> From: Larry Bowen <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
> Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:53:39 -0500
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phone/Mic Jack Connector
>
>
> I have a similar console for the back seat in my RV-8. I was planning
> to just unscrew the nuts that secure the power jack and mic/phone jacks
> as needed when removing the console. That won't work in your situation?
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Don Boardman [mailto:dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 8:37 PM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Phone/Mic Jack Connector
>>
>>
>> -->
>>
>> Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
>>
>> Hi Bob and All,
>>
>> We plan to put two cigar power jacks and the pilot's and
>> co-pilot's phone and mic jacks between the pilot and co-pilot
>> seats in a "small console". This console will need to be
>> removed during annual inspection and therefore will need a disconnect.
>>
>> Are there any special considerations in selecting a connector
>> because of the
>> the phone and mic jacks? I am thinking Molex? Possibly D-sub?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Don B.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Amit Dagan" <amitdagan(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV module on RV with 60Amp internally-regulated |
alternator.
> >Hi All,
> >I would like to see a picture (or explanation) of an RV with Bob's OV
>module
> >and relay for the 60A alt that VAN's sell.
> >Thanks a lot,
> >Amit, RV-7, wiring.
>
>
> Not sure I understand your question. Does the alternator
> you have come with a built in regulator?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> It is the one in Vansaircraft catalog.
> From their catalog:
> "ES 14684: A small lightweight high output unit that is
> capable of developing 60 amperes (12 volt DC). This unit is
>INTERNALLY voltage regulated and will work fine with any of
>the batteries sold by Van's Aircraft."
> I believe this is very popular with RV builders.
> I hope this explains my question to you.
> Thanks, Amit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Twisting Fat Wires |
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Hi All,
Not to long ago I saw reference to twisting the fat wires (#4) from a
battery located aft in the fuselage as they ran up to the firewall. I can't
find a reference in Bob's book. This seems to complicate the installation of
the wires. I can find no reference in the archives.
SO... Twisted or parallel? What's the scoop?
Thanks,
Don B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | F1Rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Twisting Fat Wires |
The reference was in a previous version of the Connection, although it is not present
in the current version. Perhaps Bob can provide the background.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
>
> Hi All,
>
> Not to long ago I saw reference to twisting the fat wires (#4) from a
> battery located aft in the fuselage as they ran up to the firewall. I can't
> find a reference in Bob's book. This seems to complicate the installation of
> the wires. I can find no reference in the archives.
>
> SO... Twisted or parallel? What's the scoop?
>
> Thanks,
> Don B
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Over-voltage, etc. |
< fire after a direct connected starter contactor stuck and they
> couldn't shut them off . . .
> Redundant shut-offs are no good unless
>you have some way to shut off the starter anyway.
> Don't understand . . .
> One good way to shut off
>the starter without a separate switch is to shut off the engine. The
>battery will soon be dead, which is no problem.
> Unless it smokes the starter or melts a hole in the side of the
> battery . . >>
The above are a combination of my original comments and Bob's. I didn't
express myself accurately. I meant that "redundant shut-offs are no good
unless the pilot has a way to detect the stuck starter contactor to begin
with." I think a common scenario would be that the engine starts and the
starter stays on. A Bendix drive will disengage and the starter will
continue to spin at high rpm, no load. A positive-engaged starter gear will
remain engage and the free-wheel clutch will release the load, but the gear
will rotate at a too-high speed. The pilot doesn't notice until hopefully
the run-up when he sees that the battery is discharging heavily or the
alternator load is very high. By then the starter has become truly hot.
Shutting off the engine will then not help much as the battery will likely
not go dead before the starter has possibly caught on fire. Maybe the
starter melts into a short, causing the battery also overheat. The solution
to all this is perhaps not a redundant starter shut-off, but some kind of
indication that the starter is still powered. Is a "starter engaged"
warning light worth the complexity? It sounds like it. In that case even
if the starter were not able to be shut off by even a master contactor the
battery will likely go dead gracefully without starting a fire. It depends
on the type of starter motor and drive as to how much current is drawn.
After engine shutdown a positive-engage starter will revert to cranking the
engine and the battery draw will be probably about 150 amps. A 17 ah
battery will likely last for 2 or 3 minutes, as Bob said, and that shouldn't
start anything on fire. If there is such a chance something is wrong with
the basic design. A Bendix-drive starter will continue to run at high rpm,
no load and probably draw about 50 amps, taking a lot longer to shut off.
Would it fry its bearings before the battery runs dead?
Overall, I think I would vote for running the starter through a master
switch or contactor and adding (more complexity - drats!) a starter-engaged
warning light. Prompt detection of this failure mode would seem to be the
key to saving the day.
Gary Casey
As always the "facts" I expressed above are only my perception of reality.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Jurotich <mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | LR3C-14 low voltage warn light |
I recently had something blow the LR3C-14 field fuse on my purchased when
flying RV 6A and the low voltage warning light did not come on. When I
rebuild the VFR panel for IFR the fuse will be replaced with a
breaker. Can I safely ground terminal 5 to test the light bulb? Assumming
the light bulb is good is the LR3C-14 repairable?
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Swales contractor to the
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mail to:
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-1736
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 intercom |
I have a MicroAir 760 on my Kolb Twinstar with a Rotax 912 and it is loud.
I thought I was getting a bunch of electrical noise or something, because
the rasp coming throught the headset when I pushed the PTT or intercom
button was too loud to talk over. I tried different antennas, rerouting the
ignition wires (it's a pusher so they are kind of long) shielding the mic
and headphone wires. I installed a Sigtronics SPO-22N vox intercom and
while it worked ok, it was just as noisy when the squelch was broken. I was
about ready to buy new mics for the headphones. Tried a bunch of different
headsets. I put the Oregon Aero leather/foam thingies on the mics and that
helped a little. I could then notice that when the squelch on the vox
intercom was adjusted just so, I could turn my head a little, exposing the
mic to the engine noise, and the squelch would break. So I've enclosed the
entire cabin and installed soundproofing in the cabin ceiling. Cut the
noise by half, and I'm a happy guy.
Sometimes the right explanation is the simplest one. If you're getting a
lot of noise in your headset, it just might be your airplane. Don't be
surprised if the Softcom puts just as much noise in your headsets as the
MicroAir. But let us know - eventually I'll want to replace the SPO-22 with
a panel-mounted version, and I'd appreciate hearing of your experience.
Good luck,
Duncan McBride
N319DM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 intercom |
>
>
>I have a MicroAir 760 on my Kolb Twinstar with a Rotax 912 and it is loud.
>I thought I was getting a bunch of electrical noise or something, because
>the rasp coming throught the headset when I pushed the PTT or intercom
>button was too loud to talk over. I tried different antennas, rerouting the
>ignition wires (it's a pusher so they are kind of long) shielding the mic
>and headphone wires. I installed a Sigtronics SPO-22N vox intercom and
>while it worked ok, it was just as noisy when the squelch was broken. I was
>about ready to buy new mics for the headphones. Tried a bunch of different
>headsets. I put the Oregon Aero leather/foam thingies on the mics and that
>helped a little. I could then notice that when the squelch on the vox
>intercom was adjusted just so, I could turn my head a little, exposing the
>mic to the engine noise, and the squelch would break. So I've enclosed the
>entire cabin and installed soundproofing in the cabin ceiling. Cut the
>noise by half, and I'm a happy guy.
>
>Sometimes the right explanation is the simplest one. If you're getting a
>lot of noise in your headset, it just might be your airplane. Don't be
>surprised if the Softcom puts just as much noise in your headsets as the
>MicroAir. But let us know - eventually I'll want to replace the SPO-22 with
>a panel-mounted version, and I'd appreciate hearing of your experience.
Thank you for the narrative Duncan . . . it's most helpful.
As Duncan has discovered, not all headsets are alike and in particular
with respect to microphones. Crafting an effective "noise canceling"
microphone is not an easy task. I've researched raw mic cartridges for
various tasks over the years and found a wide range of noise cancelling
capabilities. Spec sheet data for a mic cartridge cannot be relied on
for comfort in microphone design . . . the noise canceling characteristics
are measured in the lab under sometimes obscure methods. For example,
a broadband "pink" noise might be used as the test source. Perhaps the
data was gathered as single tone sweep of the range of interest, or
1/3rd octive test tones. Whatever method is used, it cannot account for
(1) the noise encountered in YOUR airplane and (2) variability of
performance after the cartridge is mounted in the headset-mic housing.
In an open cockpit aircraft, wind noise can be next to impossible
to suppress. Closed cockpit aircraft can have standing waves of
sound at a particular frequency . . . something your ear wouldn't
notice but the squelch detector in the intercom does. For example,
its a rare rental aircraft that I can rent where setting intercom
squelch at critical won't open the squelch by simply turning
the head.
There ARE things intercom manufacturers could do. Micro-controllers
are dirt cheap nowadays. One could devise signal processing software
to (1) concentrate on voice characteristics as signals to be passed
along and (2) measure the ration of (1) with respect to cabin noise
to decide when squelch should be open or closed. This kind of intercom
would not even have a squelch control knob . . . it would be constantly
processing cabin ambient (including your voice) for optimum filtering
and squelch threshold setting.
This all goes to support some of my posts with respect to the 760VHF
hot mic intercom wherein the users were frustrated with what they
perceived as poor performance that would go away if they bought
a "real" intercom.
As I've discussed in chapter 16, a noise suppression project
must begin with data. Who is the antagonist and how is the
noise propagating from antagonist to victim? If there is
electrical noise in your intercom, the fix will involve
issues like shielding, filtering, relocating, or getting
rid of an antagonist that probably shouldn't be considered
for use in an airplane. If it's ambient noise, only a gross
reduction in noise (per Duncan's approach) or a more
elegant selection of microphones will help. These constraints
are a constant that have nothing to do with whether the
subject intercom system is a killobuck SuperVox Model 1000
or a piece of @#$@# 760VHF. Once the squelch is open OR the
PTT is pushed, EITHER system is a simple audio amplifier
connecting microphones to earphones. BOTH systems will
be equally subject to the variabilities of microphone
performance, cabin ambient noise and external electrical
stimuli. The only way this equation will change is when
someone takes the time to craft sophisticated, digital
processing of the voice signal both for signal to noise
qualities AND squelch threshold setting.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Twisting Fat Wires |
Back before I'd studied it much and during a time when
90% of my readers were canard-pusher builders, radiated
magnetic fields and liquid compass performance came up
as a topic. One builder ran is (+) fat wire down one side
of the cockpit and (-) fat wire down the other.
The results were spectacular. Cranking the engine would
produce a couple hundred rpm spin of the compass card.
After the engine started, turning on the alternator would
produce some fixed reading on the compass combined with a
decided, card binding tilt.
I suggested that he minimize radiated magnetic effects
in the cockpit by running ALL wires together . . . and
relying on what I'd come to understand about the advantages
of twisted pairs, suggested that he consider twisting the
fat wires together.
In years since, I've come to know that the additional
effort of twisting produces only marginal decrease in
magnetic interference while greatly increasing the
bulk of the cable in addition to effort required to install.
I revised the suggestion in later writings to recommend
simple, parallel routing of wire bundles such that for
every electron running in one direction through the bundle
was countered by another electron marching in the opposite
direction in closest practical proximity to the first.
Bob . . .
>The reference was in a previous version of the Connection, although it is
>not present in the current version. Perhaps Bob can provide the background.
>
>Randy
>F1 Rocket
>http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Not to long ago I saw reference to twisting the fat wires (#4) from a
> > battery located aft in the fuselage as they ran up to the firewall. I can't
> > find a reference in Bob's book. This seems to complicate the
> installation of
> > the wires. I can find no reference in the archives.
> >
> > SO... Twisted or parallel? What's the scoop?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Don B
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( A beginning of the end is marked by )
( replacement of experience and common )
( sense with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | book availability |
Where can I purchase the book, please?
Thanks,
AI Nut
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Contactor |
>
>Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
>I hope to install the contactor tomorrow.
>
>Hi Bob and All,
>
>Quick question. Is there any concern about mounting a battery contactor with
>the coil tube in the horizontal position? Given the pounding that our
>seaplane will take on the water I wondered if there was any problem with the
>coil holding the contact bar in a horizontal position verses pulling it down
>while in a vertical position.
There are many a hangar-legend and ol' mechanic's tales circulating
about suggesting that there are critical orientation issues with
respect to contactor installation. All are based upon some
mis-interpretation of facts. The short answer is, No. Please
feel free to mount your contactors to maximize convenience
of installation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Phone/Mic Jack Connector |
>
>Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
>
>Hi Bob and All,
>
>We plan to put two cigar power jacks and the pilot's and co-pilot's phone
>and mic jacks between the pilot and co-pilot seats in a "small console".
>This console will need to be removed during annual inspection and therefore
>will need a disconnect.
>
>Are there any special considerations in selecting a connector because of the
>the phone and mic jacks? I am thinking Molex? Possibly D-sub?
D-sub would be my choice.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kenny Bauman <kennybauman(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Z-Document to Start From? |
Bob,
What Z diagram would you recomend taking a look at for
the following:
Subaru engine
4 coils (1 per cyl)
4 injectors (1 per cyl)
2 computers
2 batteries
1 alternator
I'm thinking it would be nice to have a main bus,
essential bus (backup), overvoltage protection, and
the ability to tie the batteries together for a "self
jump".
I'm also thinking that feeding the injector and coil
12 volt feeds from both bus's would be a good idea.
Switching the ground leads via a relay board.
If this has been discussed please point me to an
approximate date and I will try the archives.
Thanks
Ken Bauman
__________________________________
http://companion.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com> |
Bob,
Thanks for holding my hand through the wiring process. If I have any doubt I
figure I'd better ask. Doing it safely and making our airplanes the best is
the goal.
I hope to get the Moose to the SeaBase at Oshkosh this year. I am there two
weeks as Activities Chairman.
BOB, I SURE WOULD LIKE TO PAY BACK YOUR KINDNESS AND DEDICATION TO THIS LIST
WITH SOME FLIGHT TIME. Do you make it to Oshkosh?
Don B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: book availability |
>
>Where can I purchase the book, please?
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 low voltage warn light |
>
>
>I recently had something blow the LR3C-14 field fuse on my purchased when
>flying RV 6A and the low voltage warning light did not come on. When I
>rebuild the VFR panel for IFR the fuse will be replaced with a
>breaker. Can I safely ground terminal 5 to test the light bulb? Assumming
>the light bulb is good is the LR3C-14 repairable?
Before the event, did the low voltage light ever flash?
If installed correctly, the low voltage light should flash
any time the battery switch is ON and the alternator is
not supplying power to the bus either because it is turned
OFF, failed, or engine not running.
This means the low voltage light gets tested EVERY preflight.
Yes, you can ground #5 to test the bulb. After replacing the
fuse, did it blow again?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>I have Bob's OVM-14 Over Voltage Protection module for my internally
>regulated alternator installed in my plane. What's the easiest way to
>test it & verify I've installed it correctly?
Testing is best accomplished on the bench but there's a
technique described in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/crowbar.pdf
for testing in the airplane too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive, AM/FM CD Player with
a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all the ones I looked seemed
to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing this is because all the 'kiddies' want
mega watt amplifiers in those Honda Civics and thus the units are HEAVY.
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Thanks Bob for all your time and energy |
Bob Nuckolls,
Just wanted to thank you for all the time you spend on this list, as well
as traveling around the country, helping to advance the state of the art in
aircraft electrical systems. You're making a big difference.
Happy New Year
Dave Morris
Dragonfly N55UP under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Player.... |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD |
Player....
Player....
>
>Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive, AM/FM CD
>Player with a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
>
>Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all the ones I
>looked seemed to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing this is because all the
>'kiddies' want mega watt amplifiers in those Honda Civics and thus the
>units are HEAVY.
How about scraping the CD player idea . . . you can buy some
REALLY compact MP3 players to which you can download lots of
music. I bought a 256MB player for Dee for Xmas. It holds
about 80 tracks. Larger memory devices are available too.
You can download music tracks to the player from your
computer via USB cable. Further, the player will serve
as a portable hard drive to carry data between multiple
computers.
Dee's unit is about 1" x 3/4" x 3" and runs on one AAA
cell. Audio quality is good. No moving parts. Very rugged.
No skip protection needed. Already set up to work in
the low-level audio world (headphones).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery tester |
>Bob
>
>I must be missing something but I cannot figure out why the 12 relay opens
>as the battery voltage goes lower. Assuming I can find the parts,
>especially the 120 volt clock, how do you select the relay open
>voltage. I would prefer 11 or 11.5 I would also like some feedback on my
>q2uestion below.
The relay will not stay energized for ever. The zener in series
with it raises the dropout voltage. The actual dropout voltage is not
critical. This is not a calibrated device. It only compares a
battery's current condition with some condition noted in the
past by using the same test fixture . . . this makes it unnecessary
to calibrate the fixture.
>Thanks
>
>Matt Jurotich
>
>>Thank you for your inquiry to Bob Nuckolls submitted on Wednesday,
>>December 24, 2003.
>>
>>Below is a copy of the message you submitted.
>>
>>Matthew Jurotich
>>
>>
>>Email: mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov
>>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob
>>
>>I am rebuilding the panel in my RV 6A and simultaneously going to the Z13
>>electrical system with one 25 AH B&C battery. I just bought the new
>>battery and want to use your method for determining useful battey life
>>left. Finding the 120 volt electric clock called for seems impossible in
>>this day of battery operated digital everything. Do have a source for
>>clocks or can you propose an alternative? Reply on aeroelectric list is fine.
Garage sales are good sources for electric clocks. The ARE
getting harder to find in stores. I probably ought to do
a more sophisticated timer built from discrete parts . . .
I'll think about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>system, is there?
Z-11 plus Z-24 second battery option.
>I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need
>a constant, automatic source of electricity. I
>don't know of any subaru conversions that have two
>alternators, so two batteries will be a must.
. . . which will provide two battery busses from
which primary and alternate engine power can
be provided.
>I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but
>I don't quite understand how any of this is
>automatic. I'm missing the part where I
>wire my engine computer to both "always hot"
>battery busses, and it always gets juice.
I too am unclear as to how the word "automatic"
fits into your deliberations. Let's not worry about
it. If you have an electrically dependent engine
that can take advantage of independent power sources,
then Figure Z-11 with Z-24 tacked on is the functional
equal to Figure 17-6.
>It all seems clear when I'm reading at the
>coffee table, but when I start to draw my own
>stuff, I realize how little I understood!
Somewhere, I have some exemplar Subaru diagrams.
I'll see if I can incorporate them into a new
Z-figure that accommodates the Suaaru's unique
architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net> |
| Subject: | Pondering changing fom Z-13 to Z-12 |
Hi Bob,
Any idea of the minimum time it may take to resolve the SD8 regulator
overheating concerns?
As you may recall, I spent the last couple of months becoming educated on
Z-13, and was at the point of ordering all of my Z-13 stuff, and finalizing
my panel decisions. Nothing major left to do but the electrical and panel,
so I am thinking of biting the 3 lb and $500 bullet and going with Z-12 and
SD20, since it appears the SD20 problems were anomalies. (I would add a
support brace to the aft end of the SD20 for my peace of mind). I'm
instrument rated and will have full IFR goodies, but in practice I never fly
"hard IFR". Any other downsides to Z-12 besides weight and $? What would
you suggest I do? If you recommend Z-12, be forewarned, the questions will
be forthcoming. See below:
On Z-12, you responded to a previous post that if the bat contactor fails,
the E bus will be operating off of battery only. Can I hook the SD20's B
lead to the battery side of the contactor and it's field to the bat bus?
Would this give me the best of all worlds, ie with contactor closed, retain
autoswitching and all busses? With contactor open, keep the battery charged
while operating on the E bus, ie somewhat the same idea as Z-13? If this is
ok, what would be a reasonable design load for the E bus?
Thank you, your comments are always appreciated. Scott RV7A
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff(at)foothill.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
I, too, want to end up with the same sort of system which I am
designing, but now I am really confused??? My Z24h shows how to add OV
protection to an internally regulated alternator - nothing about a
second battery there???
Dick Tasker, RV9A, 90573
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>>system, is there?
>>
>>
>
> Z-11 plus Z-24 second battery option.
>
>
>
>
>>I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need
>>a constant, automatic source of electricity. I
>>don't know of any subaru conversions that have two
>>alternators, so two batteries will be a must.
>>
>>
>
> . . . which will provide two battery busses from
> which primary and alternate engine power can
> be provided.
>
>
>
>
>>I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but
>>I don't quite understand how any of this is
>>automatic. I'm missing the part where I
>>wire my engine computer to both "always hot"
>>battery busses, and it always gets juice.
>>
>>
>
> I too am unclear as to how the word "automatic"
> fits into your deliberations. Let's not worry about
> it. If you have an electrically dependent engine
> that can take advantage of independent power sources,
> then Figure Z-11 with Z-24 tacked on is the functional
> equal to Figure 17-6.
>
>
>
>>It all seems clear when I'm reading at the
>>coffee table, but when I start to draw my own
>>stuff, I realize how little I understood!
>>
>>
>
> Somewhere, I have some exemplar Subaru diagrams.
> I'll see if I can incorporate them into a new
> Z-figure that accommodates the Suaaru's unique
> architecture.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
I'm looking at the iRiver stuff. MP3 and radio in one small,
solid-state package. Check it out here:
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iFP-390T.asp
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack Lockamy [mailto:jacklockamy(at)att.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:12 PM
> To: AeroElectric List
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightweight Panel-mounted
> AM/FM/CD Player....
>
>
> -->
>
> Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive,
> AM/FM CD Player with a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
>
> Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all
> the ones I looked seemed to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing
> this is because all the 'kiddies' want mega watt amplifiers
> in those Honda Civics and thus the units are HEAVY.
>
> Jack Lockamy
> Camarillo, CA
>
>
> ============
> Matronics Forums.
> ============
> ============
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
About the MP3 players...
Can anyone tell me how I would go about converting lectures (or music or
whatever) that is now on audio cassette to MP3 files? Or maybe point me to
a website that would.
Thanks,
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
>>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>>system, is there?
>
> Z-11 plus Z-24 second battery option.
Is that a typo - in my book Figure Z-30 is "Aux Battery and Bus".
Z-24 is "Adding OV Protection to an Internally Regulated Alternator"
This may be something I need as well for the Subaru alternator -
I don't know yet what type of alternator is will have.
>...
>
> Somewhere, I have some exemplar Subaru diagrams.
> I'll see if I can incorporate them into a new
> Z-figure that accommodates the Suaaru's unique
> architecture.
That would be excellent!
Thanks, and Happy New Year (which will be in about 25 minutes here!)
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard(at)Riley.net.Player |
| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD |
Player....
First, you have to have a sound card with a line in jack. Then get Music
Match http://www.musicmatch.com
Plug the headphone jack on the cassette deck into the input on the sound
card. Play the lecture, MusicMatch will convert it to MP3, and burn it on
a CD for you.
>
>About the MP3 players...
>
>Can anyone tell me how I would go about converting lectures (or music or
>whatever) that is now on audio cassette to MP3 files? Or maybe point me to
>a website that would.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Terry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
If you have a computer at home that has a sound card (most
do), you can use that to digitize the cassettes. You need a
player for the audio cassette, preferably with a line level out.
Connect the line-out to the line-in on the sound card. If you
use a component cassette deck, you will need an RCA to 1/8"
stereo cable to make the connection. Then find some sound
recording software - Windows has a built in one that is a bit
clunky, and start recording when you start the cassette
playback.
Getting the level set so that it is loud enough, but doesn't clip
(distort) may take some experimentation. Also, you will want
to play with the audio sample rate such that you get adequate
quality. The higher the sample rate, the larger the file size of
the recording. Finally, if you have long recordings, you may
want to break them up into sessions/chapters/tracks to make
them easier for the PC to handle.
I think the native file format for windows audio files is a .wav
file. If you record to a .wav file, you will have to convert this to
mp3. I believe that Winamp does this. I think there's a free
vesion of it floating around.
This answer is off the top of my head, so there may be a more
effecient method that someone else has used.
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> About the MP3 players...
>
> Can anyone tell me how I would go about converting lectures (or music or
> whatever) that is now on audio cassette to MP3 files? Or maybe point me
> to a website that would.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Terry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
Bob,
I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My
friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
thrown over the branch.
Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up in
the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do you
suggest?
Regards and Happy New Year
Eric M. Jones
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net> |
| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
Has anyone installed a satellite radio unit in their plane?
Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Manual master switch |
> What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How
> do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation
> of an unplanned arrival with the earth?
How come I never seem to hear about automotive starters getting stuck
on? Does the accelerating flywheel more forcibly disengage the starter
gear and contacts on those? I've had several automotive starter failures
but don't know anyone who has had a stuck on one. Anyway a small battery
won't last too long if it does stick which puts the risk of fire pretty
much up to what the battery does. Since you know of at least one RG
battery that melted in an airplane that may be a concern. Are Lycoming
starters more prone to sticking than automotive units or just more
talked about when it happens?
Most of us have seen cars cranked until dead without a battery fire or
meltdown... I'm talking about cranking till dead not a shorted battery
terminal situation where all of the energy is heating the battery.
I have questioned the crash scenario benefit of battery contactors as
well. It would seem that most crashes occur during a planned takeoff or
landing when there is very little chance of the master switch being off
at impact anyway. Many times I've read reports where the pilot turned
off the master while the dust was settling as he exited the wreckage.
Granted they probably did not have a live fat wire on the starter but in
the big picture I'm not sure that justifies an additional contactor. If
I add all the features of Z-14 to my efi requirements, it can start to
get cumbersome with for example at least 7 relays/contactors active
during a start. Main efi power relay, fuel pump relay, starter solenoid,
starter contactor, two battery contactors, and a crossfeed contactor. In
addition there would be two relays for alternator ov protection and
another for the second fuel pump and a couple for the redundant efi that
will all take up space and add weight...
A modified scheme with 17AH battery and a small non crank participating
battery would be cheaper and slightly simpler but would be heavier than
2 5AH batteries and a touch less versatile. I haven't decided which way
to go yet.
I think I understand the Z diagrams and I am not criticising them or
suggesting there are any shortcomings in them. I am willing to accept a
bit more (informed) risk in exchange for simplification, weight
reduction, and less components. And my powerplant is not a standard
installation.
>snip
> Why did you cripple some perfectly good alternators? What is
> the advantage of slowing down an alternator that runs most
> happily at high rpm? The BIG downside for generators was low
> output at idle and taxi RPMs but if you put a smaller pulley
> on them, the brushes would wear faster. When alternators
> came along, all the downsides went away but you have brought
> them back . . .
Well the single v belt pulleys had to be replaced with multi v belt
pulleys anyway. Then there is the warm and fuzzy of not running either
alternator faster than it spins in its oem application, which means they
have a better chance of remaining as reliable as they were in the oem
application in my opinion. These are stock alternators with no upgraded
parts or balancing. Unlike a car I don't need a lot of current at idle
although in fact my alternator speed at idle will still be higher than
in a car as I'm restricted to about 1200 engine rpm (600 prop) for the
health of my prop gearbox. I don't perceive any crippling for my
application.
I do appreciate the comments from everyone.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
My neighbor has one in his Lancair IV and loves it. I think he'd get rid of
a Comm before the SR.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD
Player....
>
>
> Has anyone installed a satellite radio unit in their plane?
> Kevin
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
Spring $25 for a 15' pruning saw/shear (don't worry, you'll use it a lot). You
probably
have a ladder that will get you within 15' of the offending branch. Put the tree
between
you and the branch as you cut.
MOVE THE JEEP BEFORE YOU CUT :o))
>
> >I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
> >Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My
> >friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
> >thrown over the branch.
> >
> >Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up in
> >the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
> >17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do you
> >suggest?
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete & Farrell Rouse" <pete-farrell(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
Kevin,
There was an article an AVWEB by Mike Busch about installing XM radio in his
Cessna 310. The web address is as follows:
http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/185906-1.html
I hope this helps.
Pete Rouse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann(at)gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD
Player....
>
>
> Has anyone installed a satellite radio unit in their plane?
> Kevin
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Glasgow" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com> |
I=92m flying with a basic Z-8 system (one 40 amp main and one SD-8) in my RV-8.
My ESS BUS is pretty much loaded up to the maximum, especially when transmitting.
When I check the SD-8, the load is almost always in the top yellow band, which
I would think is quite normal because of the ESS BUS load. The problem is that
sometimes if the load gets to high the LOW voltage light comes on and system
voltage drops to around 12.2 volts. Reducing the load will cause the voltage
to increase and the LOW voltage light goes out.
I this normal? What I mean is, as the load goes up above a certain value, does
the voltage produced start to drop?
Steve Glasgow
55 hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Casey" <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator drive ratios |
<>
I agree with your methodology, Ken. Most automotive-type alternators are
designed to produce rated current at 4,000 to 5,000 rpm. In a passenger car
application there is always a tradeoff between idle charging, durability and
maximum speed. An alternator will survive 12,000 rpm or more, but in a car
the engine speed range is always being pushed - lower idle speeds and higher
max speeds. You would like to run the alternator at about the minimum rpm
for rated current. In most cars the most common engine speed is between
2,000 and 3,000 rpm so a 2:1 drive ratio works out pretty well. The idle
charge rate problem is helped by just oversizing the alternator. In a lot
of automotive engine installations the PSRU setup is such that the engine
will run at about 4,000 rpm during cruise and there would be no advantage in
running the alternator at 8,000 rpm. And in your case the choice of a 1200
rpm idle supports the choice to reduce the alternator drive ratio. Another
advantage of upsizing the alternator pulley is that the belt loading and
required tension go down a lot, reducing the likelihood of a belt failure,
not to mention bearing failure from high side loads.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Over-voltage, etc |
I wouldn't think that a starter-engaged light is essential for a
personal aircraft. In most cases a glance at the voltmeter or ammeter as
soon as idle is achieved should show whether the battery is charging.
Most won't be if the starter is still spinning.
However if the starter is spinning madly and one opens the battery
contactor, is there any chance that the starter is now a generator that
could feed a short overvoltage to the rest of the electrical system? My
solid state electronics experience has been that bad things happen when
the stabilizing effect of a battery is removed from a system. Probably
part of the reason that I'm leery of battery contactors...
Ken
gotta keep it simple ;)
>Overall, I think I would vote for running the starter through a master
>switch or contactor and adding (more complexity - drats!) a
>starter-engaged warning light. Prompt detection of this failure mode
>would seem to be the
>key to saving the day.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 intercom |
Bob Nuckolls' wrote:
There ARE things intercom manufacturers could do. Micro-controllers
are dirt cheap nowadays. One could devise signal processing
software
to (1) concentrate on voice characteristics as signals to be
passed
along and (2) measure the ration of (1) with respect to cabin
noise
to decide when squelch should be open or closed. This kind of
intercom
would not even have a squelch control knob . . . it would be
constantly
processing cabin ambient (including your voice) for optimum
filtering
and squelch threshold setting.
FlightTech has taken a different approach. I stumbled across their website
when I was having my troubles and their description sounded really good, but
I've been working on reducing the ambient noise and enclosing the cabin
anyway before I contemplated purchasing a new intercom. See
http://www.flighttech.com/ The only thing that concerns me with an "always
open" intercom is that if it doesn't eliminate all the ambient noise, you'll
be getting it amplified all the time. Would I always be reaching for a
squelch control? And, does it co-exist perfectly with noise reducing
headsets?
I searched the archive and the only reference was an inquiry back in July
2002 and nobody had any experience with FlightTech (two t's). I would
really like to hear of any first-hand reports about the FlightTech intercoms
and the success of their approach in a high noise cabin. If anyone isn't
familiar with the Kolb, with the stock windshield arrangement it's
equivalent to a tandem open cockpit with the engine in the rear cockpit.
http://www.tnkolbaircraft.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Aronson <aronsond(at)pacbell.net> |
Bob Nuckolls III:
Thanks for another year of tremendous support. I am one of the very challenged
experimental aircraft builders who, without your guidance and educational resources
(seminar, book, website and list), would never have ventured as far.
My wife and others look at the work that has been accomplished, with your help,
and ask "you didn't do that by yourself did you"? Thank you Bob for your efforts
meking our aviation efforts safer and more effective. God bless you and
Happy New Year!
Dave Aronson
N504RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
>
> > What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How
> > do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation
> > of an unplanned arrival with the earth?
>
>How come I never seem to hear about automotive starters getting stuck
>on? Does the accelerating flywheel more forcibly disengage the starter
>gear and contacts on those? I've had several automotive starter failures
>but don't know anyone who has had a stuck on one. Anyway a small battery
>won't last too long if it does stick which puts the risk of fire pretty
>much up to what the battery does. Since you know of at least one RG
>battery that melted in an airplane that may be a concern. Are Lycoming
>starters more prone to sticking than automotive units or just more
>talked about when it happens?
It's not the starter that sticks but the starter contactor. Contacts
within are prone to welding if badly worn or not closed with enough
velocity and force to avoid weld-inducing arcs during the closure
bounce . . .
Contactors stick in both automotive and aircraft but more commonly
in aircraft. Ring gears are smaller in airplanes putting more
torque (amps) requirement on the starter. Airplane batteries as
a class of energy storage device are poorly maintained. Further,
when pilots have their heart set on getting airborne, then tend
to keep beating on a recalcitrant engine longer than one might
in their car . . . if my car doesn't start immediately, I know
something is wrong. I've watched pilots crank airplanes unmercifully.
>Most of us have seen cars cranked until dead without a battery fire or
>meltdown... I'm talking about cranking till dead not a shorted battery
>terminal situation where all of the energy is heating the battery.
Car batteries have more volume, surface area and mass compared
to those favored for aircraft usage. You know how we are about
weight and size . . .
>I have questioned the crash scenario benefit of battery contactors as
>well. It would seem that most crashes occur during a planned takeoff or
>landing when there is very little chance of the master switch being off
>at impact anyway. Many times I've read reports where the pilot turned
>off the master while the dust was settling as he exited the wreckage.
>Granted they probably did not have a live fat wire on the starter but in
>the big picture I'm not sure that justifies an additional contactor.
A friend of mine at RAC used to investigate accidents. He
noted that virtually every crash where the battery was
ejected from the crash did not experience a post-crash fire.
"Justification" is based on perceptions of probabilities.
I doubt that there have been any learned studies of probabilities
on usefulness of master contactors . . but one thing is for
sure, if you DON'T have one, that option is not available to you
irrespective of probabilities.
>If I add all the features of Z-14 to my efi requirements, it can start to
>get cumbersome with for example at least 7 relays/contactors active
>during a start. Main efi power relay, fuel pump relay, starter solenoid,
>starter contactor, two battery contactors, and a crossfeed contactor. In
>addition there would be two relays for alternator ov protection and
>another for the second fuel pump and a couple for the redundant efi that
>will all take up space and add weight...
>
>A modified scheme with 17AH battery and a small non crank participating
>battery would be cheaper and slightly simpler but would be heavier than
>2 5AH batteries and a touch less versatile. I haven't decided which way
>to go yet.
>
>I think I understand the Z diagrams and I am not criticising them or
>suggesting there are any shortcomings in them. I am willing to accept a
>bit more (informed) risk in exchange for simplification, weight
>reduction, and less components. And my powerplant is not a standard
>installation.
The Z-diagrams are starting points to illustrate distribution
philosophies. They are not intended to establish any details
with respect to wire sizing or what items are run from which
bus. If you have data from which you can to a comparative
trade off for risks, we'd all be pleased if you would share it
with us.
> >snip
> > Why did you cripple some perfectly good alternators? What is
> > the advantage of slowing down an alternator that runs most
> > happily at high rpm? The BIG downside for generators was low
> > output at idle and taxi RPMs but if you put a smaller pulley
> > on them, the brushes would wear faster. When alternators
> > came along, all the downsides went away but you have brought
> > them back . . .
>
>Well the single v belt pulleys had to be replaced with multi v belt
>pulleys anyway. Then there is the warm and fuzzy of not running either
>alternator faster than it spins in its oem application, which means they
>have a better chance of remaining as reliable as they were in the oem
>application in my opinion. These are stock alternators with no upgraded
>parts or balancing. Unlike a car I don't need a lot of current at idle
>although in fact my alternator speed at idle will still be higher than
>in a car as I'm restricted to about 1200 engine rpm (600 prop) for the
>health of my prop gearbox. I don't perceive any crippling for my
>application.
If the larger pulley fits under your cowl and you don't
anticipate ever wanting battery-recharge capability offered
by the smaller pulley, then you could see some service
life advantages . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
>
>
>I, too, want to end up with the same sort of system which I am
>designing, but now I am really confused??? My Z24h shows how to add OV
>protection to an internally regulated alternator - nothing about a
>second battery there???
Got my tongue tangled around my eyeteeth and couldn't see
what I was saying. Try Z-11 and Z-30. You can add a second
battery to ANY existing battery by adding the appropriate
contactor and bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob Nuckells,
I've been studying the intercom situation for a while now, trying to find
just the right one. I want stereo hi-fi into Bose HeadsetX as well as
quiet, no-clipping intercom and radio communication. I have an SL30 Nav-Com
which has a built-in intercom. I'd like to use the built-in, but I've been
advised that because of my requirements, I wouldn't be happy with it.
Friends and avionics guys all seem to agree that I need a better intercom.
I've just read your recent (enlightening) comments about noise reduction and
control in intercoms. In my recent studies, I came across this:
The Electronic Noise Reduction feature is exclusive to FlightTech Intercoms
and allows for quiet communications without the background noise common to
Voice Operated Squelch controlled intercom. ENRI, not to be confused with
Auto-Squelch found on some other intercoms, microphones are active at all
times, ENRI monitors the background noise and eliminates it allowing only
the headset user's voice to pass.
To me, the above sounds like what you were talking about! Thoughts?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Player.... |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD |
Player....
Player....
>
> >
> > How about scraping the CD player idea . . . you can buy some
> > REALLY compact MP3 players to which you can download lots of
> > music.
> >
>Great idea, and what I will probably do, but I assume when you say "you
>can download" that you mean either from your own CDs that you have
>converted to MP3 or from sites where the music is legitimately free or
>from sites like Apple's where you pay per tune. I suspect that not
>everyone will understand this is what you mean... :-)
The super compact MP3 players are nothing but flash memory
modules with reader hardware designed to drive headphones.
They don't "play" CD's, tapes, etc. They only play from
files that are DOWNLOADED from another source, generally
a computer. An exemplar device is shown at:
http://www.swe-tech.com.au/prod77.htm
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pondering changing fom Z-13 to Z-12 |
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
> Any idea of the minimum time it may take to resolve the SD8 regulator
>overheating concerns?
>
>As you may recall, I spent the last couple of months becoming educated on
>Z-13, and was at the point of ordering all of my Z-13 stuff, and finalizing
>my panel decisions. Nothing major left to do but the electrical and panel,
>so I am thinking of biting the 3 lb and $500 bullet
it's more than 500 delta dollars . . . you need to buy the SB-1 regulator
too . . .
> and going with Z-12 and
>SD20, since it appears the SD20 problems were anomalies. (I would add a
>support brace to the aft end of the SD20 for my peace of mind).
Be cautious about "peace of mind" additions to structural
components. The SD-20 and cousins have accumulated 100,000+
hours of successful flight history. More than one peace-of-mind
modification has created more problems than it fixed. I'm not
saying what you propose falls into this category . . . but
given the facts known to date surrounding SD-20 failures, I'd
rather not spend the time analyzing and researching a modification
for so little demonstrable value.
> I'm nstrument rated and will have full IFR goodies, but in practice I
> never fly
>"hard IFR". Any other downsides to Z-12 besides weight and $? What would
>you suggest I do? If you recommend Z-12, be forewarned, the questions will
>be forthcoming. See below:
My personal choice would be Z-13 but Z-12 is flying on thousands
of certified ships.
>On Z-12, you responded to a previous post that if the bat contactor fails,
>the E bus will be operating off of battery only. Can I hook the SD20's B
>lead to the battery side of the contactor and it's field to the bat bus?
That's a long, always hot feed wire. Not sanitary but then, it's
YOUR OBAM airplane.
>Would this give me the best of all worlds, ie with contactor closed, retain
>autoswitching and all busses? With contactor open, keep the battery charged
>while operating on the E bus, ie somewhat the same idea as Z-13? If this is
>ok, what would be a reasonable design load for the E bus?
Contactor failure is rare. Probability of contactor failure during
instances where high endurance bus loads are necessary are even
more rare. If that's a major concern for you, I'd consider Z-12, dual
battery contactors, with SD-20+FAT altenrator and eliminate the
e-bus entirely. With 20A of standby power, there's no probability
of wanting to operate battery-only and the value of a dual-feed
e-bus is diminished.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
I see that the Aeroelectric Connection/B&C has a tool kit for the Dynon EFIS
installation. That's really cool. Now I also need some other tools called
out for the SL30 and the BMA EFIS One, etc.. Here is the list of all the
tools my installation books say I need so far:
Dynon Kit from AeroElectric/B&C
Daniels Manufacturing AF8M (for DSub)
Astro Tool part# 615708 crimp tool
Astro Tool part# 616356 positioner
ITT Cannon part# 274-7006-000 (Desc. CIET-20HD) insertion tool
ITT Cannon part# 995-0001-585 (Desc. M22520/1-01) regular duty crimp tool
ITT Cannon part# 995-0001-244 (Desc. TH25) regular duty locator tool
QUESTIONS (always):
Are some of these redundant?
What do I actually need to buy?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | MP3 input to panel mounted intercom |
Bob, et.al.,
I want to use an MP3 player through my SL-10MS intercom. The intercom
has stereo music input wiring, but I am a loss as to how to wire a MP3
player to it.
Most of the MP3 players (and CD players) I have looked at only have an
output for headphones. As I understand it, you should not hook headphone
or speaker output directly to an intercom input.
How should a generic MP3 player, or any other music source, be connected
to a panel intercom system?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
-----------------------------------
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Player....
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD
> Player....
>
> How about scraping the CD player idea . . . you can buy some
> REALLY compact MP3 players to which you can download lots of
> music. I bought a 256MB player for Dee for Xmas. It holds
> about 80 tracks. Larger memory devices are available too.
> You can download music tracks to the player from your
> computer via USB cable. Further, the player will serve
> as a portable hard drive to carry data between multiple
> computers.
>
> Dee's unit is about 1" x 3/4" x 3" and runs on one AAA
> cell. Audio quality is good. No moving parts. Very rugged.
> No skip protection needed. Already set up to work in
> the low-level audio world (headphones).
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-14 modification |
Bob: Im building an all electric velocity ( duel electronic ignition
and all electric panel) I am going to use Z-14 and I am thinking about the
following modification. I want to have an avionics bus; feed from the main bus
through a diode to the avionics bus. Another feed from the auxillary bus
through a diode to the avionics bus. No avionics master switches. Then a feed
from
each battery bus through a switch that can select which battery I want to run
off of. None, Main, or Aux. This gives me quad feed capabilities to my
flight insturments and radios. Any problem with this arrangement that I am not
seeing.
Thanks and Happy New Year Tim
PS electronic ignition will be run off of both battery busses through fuse
blocks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Noise suppressing intercom |
| From: | "David Chalmers" <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com> |
There is an intercom that does something similar - see http://www.flighttech.com I have been using it for 100 hours and it works. No squelch to set and it filters out engine noise even when you're talking. It does add some minor distortion at times but I'll take it over fiddling with a squelch control any day. Note that when you press the PTT it turns off the noise cancelling and pipes you voice direct to the radio - then you can really hear how much background noise it was suppressing. I asked them whether they could leave the noise suppression engaged during PTT and they said they are thinking about it. My only complaint with the unit is the tiny connector which makes wiring a challenge.
Dave
There ARE things intercom manufacturers could do. Micro-controllers
are dirt cheap nowadays. One could devise signal processing software
to (1) concentrate on voice characteristics as signals to be passed
along and (2) measure the ration of (1) with respect to cabin noise
to decide when squelch should be open or closed. This kind of intercom
would not even have a squelch control knob . . . it would be constantly
processing cabin ambient (including your voice) for optimum filtering
and squelch threshold setting.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | ARINC X,Y,Z outputs |
Many NAV devices like RMI or HSI require input from "any slaved
magnetic compass with ARINC X,Y,Z outputs".
I guess these are probably signals from a compass synchro, and the
question is if the synchro is 24V/400Hz or 110V/400Hz. Or are these
signals something different?
Does somebody know the answer?
Thank you,
Jerzy
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | audio isolation amplifier |
I've seen the "Audio Isolation Amplifier Project" in the catalog section of
the 'Connection. Can someone please explain to what it's for?
Regards,
Troy scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | audio mixer or audio isolator or just more channels |
Gentlemen,
I'd rather not use a common audio panel. I'd like to use just an intercom
to route the audio from my SL30, Marker Beacon, voice prompts from the
Dynon, an MP3 player, and maybe later a second nav-com, all to my Bose
HeadsetXs. Someone recently posted here that he had used an intercom with
more "places" than he really needed in his 2-place airplane. He wrote that
he used the extra "places" (mic inputs) for the marker audio and other
inputs. This seems like a clever solution. Opinions? It has also been
suggested to me that I use an audio mixer, like the NAT Model 247 to combine
the inputs. Thoughts? Ideas? Opinions?
Regards,
Troy Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hamer" <s.hamer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel Flow Instrument |
Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the Skymap GPS
to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge.
Thanks,
Steve
RV-6 wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
Gentlemen,
The starter that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a Sky-Tec Model
#149-12PM. I'm guessing that the "PM" means "permanent magnet", and that I
should probably add Bob's Fig.Z-22, "Fix for 'run-on' in starters with
permanent magnet motors" to my electrical system plans. Thoughts?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | internal regulator? |
Gentlemen,
The alternator that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a B&C Part# L-60,
serial# 07504010. I'm thinking this probably does NOT have an internal
regulator, right?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
Gentlemen,
First, I apologize for so many posts in one day. I've really been studying,
and that's generated a lot of questions!
For my situation, I think probably the 17-5 (Z-14) drawing, "Dual
Alternator, Dual Battery Electrical Systems" seems most appropriate. I
don't see the "essentials buss" in this scheme. Am I just missing it?, or
is no longer really necessary with this much redundancy?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn(at)cox.net> |
,
I was preparing to order a ground block from B&C and noticed they are out of stock
till "late January." Anyone have another source for these?
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
Howdy listers-
My low compression O-320 has an original Delco-Remy boat anchor starter I
wanted to retain for CG (and $!) reasons, and I am using one of the 17 Ah
Panasonic batteries. Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put in the
plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each compression
stroke. Battery voltage shows 12.63. Anyone else used this combination
successfully or am I going to have to send B&C some more $$$?!
Thanks from The PossumWorks in TN
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Slow Starter |
Mark,
check your engine to ground connection, I had a similar experience with a
SkyTech starter.
On the engine housing I did not remove all the paint, that then grounded my
engine through the throttle control, they got hot?? I then used a jumper
cable direct from the battery to the exhaust and it started immediately. I
did then know where to search!
Check and let us know
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fiveonepw(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Slow Starter
>
> Howdy listers-
>
> My low compression O-320 has an original Delco-Remy boat anchor starter I
> wanted to retain for CG (and $!) reasons, and I am using one of the 17 Ah
> Panasonic batteries. Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put
in the
> plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each
compression
> stroke. Battery voltage shows 12.63. Anyone else used this combination
> successfully or am I going to have to send B&C some more $$$?!
>
> Thanks from The PossumWorks in TN
> Mark
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | internal regulator? |
Troy,
You are right. You will need to pick up a regulator and crowbar
protection. The folks at B&C have a nice unit called an LR3C for
228.00. See the like below. Do a search for more info, there has been
plenty of post on subject.
Jim
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/parts.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy
Scott
Subject: AeroElectric-List: internal regulator?
Gentlemen,
The alternator that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a B&C Part# L-60,
serial# 07504010. I'm thinking this probably does NOT have an internal
regulator, right?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>First, I apologize for so many posts in one day. I've really been studying,
>and that's generated a lot of questions!
>
>For my situation, I think probably the 17-5 (Z-14) drawing, "Dual
>Alternator, Dual Battery Electrical Systems" seems most appropriate. I
>don't see the "essentials buss" in this scheme. Am I just missing it?, or
>is no longer really necessary with this much redundancy?
The "essential bus" is going to be renamed "endurance bus"
in future revisions. The philosophy for this architecture is
to provide (1) dual power pathways to items necessary
for comfortable completion of flight and (2) easy configuration
management for achieving minimum power consumption in a
battery-only operation. When add a second electrical system
both points become non-issues and the e-bus is not necessary.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: internal regulator? |
>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>The alternator that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a B&C Part# L-60,
>serial# 07504010. I'm thinking this probably does NOT have an internal
>regulator, right?
No B&C alternator comes with built in regulator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sky-Tec starter |
>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>The starter that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a Sky-Tec Model
>#149-12PM. I'm guessing that the "PM" means "permanent magnet", and that I
>should probably add Bob's Fig.Z-22, "Fix for 'run-on' in starters with
>permanent magnet motors" to my electrical system plans. Thoughts?
If getting the best starter wasn't an option for me, then
adding the run-on eliminator would be a good idea.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground block |
>
>I was preparing to order a ground block from B&C and noticed they are out
>of stock till "late January." Anyone have another source for these?
These are a proprietary design offered by nobody else that
I'm aware of.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
Troy,
Not sure of the items listed below. I have installed the Dynon EFIS and
Apollo GX60 and SL70, and cannot even imagine what the Dynon "installation kit"
consist of.
For all of these, the only tool I have needed is the B&C crimper for the
machined head D-sub pins, an insertion/removal tool, and the appropriate D-sub
mating connectors. With the exception of the crimper, the other items are
available from B&C and some electronic parts suppliers.
Doug
In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:13:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net writes:
> I see that the Aeroelectric Connection/B&C has a tool kit for the Dynon EFIS
> installation. That's really cool. Now I also need some other tools called
> out for the SL30 and the BMA EFIS One, etc.. Here is the list of all the
> tools my installation books say I need so far:
>
> Dynon Kit from AeroElectric/B&C
> Daniels Manufacturing AF8M (for DSub)
> Astro Tool part# 615708 crimp tool
> Astro Tool part# 616356 positioner
> ITT Cannon part# 274-7006-000 (Desc. CIET-20HD) insertion tool
> ITT Cannon part# 995-0001-585 (Desc. M22520/1-01) regular duty crimp tool
> ITT Cannon part# 995-0001-244 (Desc. TH25) regular duty locator tool
>
> QUESTIONS (always):
> Are some of these redundant?
> What do I actually need to buy?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: audio isolation amplifier |
>
>
>I've seen the "Audio Isolation Amplifier Project" in the catalog section of
>the 'Connection. Can someone please explain to what it's for?
It's used just as the wiring diagrams in the instructions
suggest: See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf
It provides a handy means by which multiple audio sources
can be brought together into the headphones system and
allow independent control of gain to balance volume
of the various sources.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Noise suppressing intercom |
There ARE things intercom manufacturers could do. Micro-controllers
are dirt cheap nowadays. One could devise signal processing software
to (1) concentrate on voice characteristics as signals to be passed
along and (2) measure the ration of (1) with respect to cabin noise
to decide when squelch should be open or closed. This kind of intercom
would not even have a squelch control knob . . . it would be constantly
processing cabin ambient (including your voice) for optimum filtering
and squelch threshold setting.
>
>
>There is an intercom that does something similar - see
>http://www.flighttech.com I have been using it for 100 hours and it works.
>No squelch to set and it filters out engine noise even when you're
>talking. It does add some minor distortion at times but I'll take it over
>fiddling with a squelch control any day. Note that when you press the PTT
>it turns off the noise cancelling and pipes you voice direct to the radio
>- then you can really hear how much background noise it was suppressing. I
>asked them whether they could leave the noise suppression engaged during
>PTT and they said they are thinking about it. My only complaint with the
>unit is the tiny connector which makes wiring a challenge.
>
>Dave
Yup, they don't tell us what kind of technology is used
to achieve performance . . . but this is exactly the
design philosophy every intercom manufacturer should be
striving for. Their prices are attractive too. I think
this is a product very much worth considering.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-14 modification |
>
>Bob: Im building an all electric velocity ( duel electronic ignition
>and all electric panel) I am going to use Z-14 and I am thinking about the
>following modification. I want to have an avionics bus; feed from the
>main bus
>through a diode to the avionics bus. Another feed from the auxillary bus
>through a diode to the avionics bus. No avionics master switches. Then a
>feed from
>each battery bus through a switch that can select which battery I want to run
>off of. None, Main, or Aux. This gives me quad feed capabilities to my
>flight insturments and radios. Any problem with this arrangement that I
>am not
>seeing.
I don't see that this is necessary but it's your airplane.
Z-14 as published with modern alternators and batteries
already offers 100x the system reliability of contemporary
light aircraft. But if more options floats your boat,
have at it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MP3 input to panel mounted intercom |
>
>
>Bob, et.al.,
>
>I want to use an MP3 player through my SL-10MS intercom. The intercom
>has stereo music input wiring, but I am a loss as to how to wire a MP3
>player to it.
>
>Most of the MP3 players (and CD players) I have looked at only have an
>output for headphones. As I understand it, you should not hook headphone
>or speaker output directly to an intercom input.
>
>How should a generic MP3 player, or any other music source, be connected
>to a panel intercom system?
If your panel intercom is does not feature a "music input"
then it's going to take some experimentation . . . or you
can add a audio isolation/mixer amplifier to your system
as described in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Voltage |
>
>
>I=92m flying with a basic Z-8 system (one 40 amp main and one SD-8) in my
>RV-8. My ESS BUS is pretty much loaded up to the maximum, especially when
>transmitting.
There's no particular advantage to providing enough
head-room in alternator sizing to cover intermittent
loads like transmitting or trim motor ops.
>When I check the SD-8, the load is almost always in the top yellow band,
>which I would think is quite normal because of the ESS BUS load. The
>problem is that sometimes if the load gets to high the LOW voltage light
>comes on and system voltage drops to around 12.2 volts. Reducing the load
>will cause the voltage to increase and the LOW voltage light goes out.
>
>
>I this normal? What I mean is, as the load goes up above a certain value,
>does the voltage produced start to drop?
Yup, every alternator will do just that irrespective of
it's size. Overload it and the voltage will sag. What
stuff is powered from the e-bus?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
Bob,
1. Does B&C offer a run-on eliminator for PM starters?
2. Where would you locate the current limiter or shunt? I'm building a
Rocket, and using the firewall ground terminal pass-thru that B&C sells.
I was thinking I would have fewer wires penetrating the firewall if I
located it on the C/p side near the firewall ground terminal and
connecting it with a short jumper of say #4 or #6 wire. I've seen shunts
on both sides of the FW.
3. The flexible battery cable that B&C sells in custom lengths, is it a
generic cable that may also be used in marine applications? Is the
conductor copper with a tin coating? Or is it aircraft wire with Tefzel
insulation.
4. Since all the interconnections between batteries and contactors are
short runs, could I use #4 wire? (I'm using #2 wire from aft batteries
to FW.)
Thanks
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sky-Tec starter
>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>The starter that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a Sky-Tec Model
>#149-12PM. I'm guessing that the "PM" means "permanent magnet", and
that I
>should probably add Bob's Fig.Z-22, "Fix for 'run-on' in starters with
>permanent magnet motors" to my electrical system plans. Thoughts?
If getting the best starter wasn't an option for me, then
adding the run-on eliminator would be a good idea.
Bob . . .
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Manual master switch and starters |
Hmmm - Yes - but just to be clear, are any of the Lycoming/Continental
starters like my very old tractor where there is no internal solenoid
that assists starter gear movement and no internal contacts? That
arrangement would necessitate an external contactor that I would think
almost has to be more prone to stick than internal contacts. It seems
the internal ones get strong mechanical feedback to help disengage the
solenoid and contacts when the engine has started.
thanks
Ken
> It's not the starter that sticks but the starter contactor.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hi There <rv90619(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Circuit protection and grounds |
Now I thought I had this figured out after reading the Connection, but after going
over the archives I'm not sure.
I'm trying to calculate the wire sizes for several lights on my plane. I have
a metal plane but was still planning on using a ground wire going back to the
ground buss for the wingtip strobes, landing lights and position lights. Calculating
the wires going out there is pretty easy, but I'm a bit stuck on the common
ground wire size. Since the ground isn't really protected by the fuses
I think all I have to do is size it for the load attached to that ground wire.
Correct?????
landing lights 5a
strobe power 2 a
position light 2a
So I think I need a ground wire for a 10 amp load.
Am I just out in left field here?
Thanks
Cam
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Circuit protection and grounds |
>
>Now I thought I had this figured out after reading the Connection, but
>after going over the archives I'm not sure.
>
>I'm trying to calculate the wire sizes for several lights on my plane. I
>have a metal plane but was still planning on using a ground wire going
>back to the ground buss for the wingtip strobes, landing lights and
>position lights.
You can do this but since lights are neither strong antagonists
nor victims, local grounds are fine.
> Calculating the wires going out there is pretty easy, but I'm a bit
> stuck on the common ground wire size. Since the ground isn't really
> protected by the fuses I think all I have to do is size it for the load
> attached to that ground wire. Correct?????
>
>landing lights 5a
>strobe power 2 a
>position light 2a
>
>So I think I need a ground wire for a 10 amp load.
"A" ground wire? If you choose to run grounds independent
of the airframe, EACH accessory should have it's own ground
wire. Ground wires are the same size as power wires. Using a
common ground creates a single point of failure for all
accessories. I'd strongly recommend local grounds for these
items.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch and starters |
>
>Hmmm - Yes - but just to be clear, are any of the Lycoming/Continental
>starters like my very old tractor where there is no internal solenoid
>that assists starter gear movement and no internal contacts?
ALL Prestolite style starters for Lyc's use Bendix drives
for indirect engagement of pinion gear and have no internal
contactor for power control.
> That
>arrangement would necessitate an external contactor that I would think
>almost has to be more prone to stick than internal contacts.
A contactor is a contactor be it internal or external. Moving
parts that carry the starter motor current are subject to
welding if operated outside their design envelope.
> It seems
>the internal ones get strong mechanical feedback to help disengage the
>solenoid and contacts when the engine has started.
>thanks
Depends on the design. Contactors and direct engagement
pinion gears do not have to share a common disengagement
spring. This is the case on B&C's starters. We've had
customers stick the contactor such that the motor continued
to run after the engine started and the pinion was retracted.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>1. Does B&C offer a run-on eliminator for PM starters?
S704-1 relay
>2. Where would you locate the current limiter or shunt? I'm building a
>Rocket, and using the firewall ground terminal pass-thru that B&C sells.
>I was thinking I would have fewer wires penetrating the firewall if I
>located it on the C/p side near the firewall ground terminal and
>connecting it with a short jumper of say #4 or #6 wire. I've seen shunts
>on both sides of the FW.
Limiter and shunt would mount as close as practical
to starter contactor on engine side of firewall.
>3. The flexible battery cable that B&C sells in custom lengths, is it a
>generic cable that may also be used in marine applications? Is the
>conductor copper with a tin coating? Or is it aircraft wire with Tefzel
>insulation.
It's welding cable. No tin coating on conductors. Welding
cable is preferred for its flexibility.
>4. Since all the interconnections between batteries and contactors are
>short runs, could I use #4 wire? (I'm using #2 wire from aft batteries
>to FW.)
Yes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slow Starter |
>
>Howdy listers-
>
>My low compression O-320 has an original Delco-Remy boat anchor starter I
>wanted to retain for CG (and $!) reasons, and I am using one of the 17 Ah
>Panasonic batteries. Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put
>in the
>plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each
>compression
>stroke. Battery voltage shows 12.63. Anyone else used this combination
>successfully or am I going to have to send B&C some more $$$?!
You need DATA to tell you where to look next.
Measure VOLTAGE at both battery terminals and then at
starter terminals while cranking. This is best done
with an analog meter . . . digital meters will jump
around a lot and not give you a good sense of what's
really happening. See figure 2-3 in 'Connection
for a description of cranking circuit analysis. Somewhere
in the system you're going to find a "hole in the dike"
where most of all your cranking electrons are leaking.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Flow Instrument |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel |
Flow Instrument
Flow Instrument
>
>
>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the Skymap
>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge.
If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon
signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads
quite nicely.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ARINC X,Y,Z outputs |
>
>
> Many NAV devices like RMI or HSI require input from "any slaved
>magnetic compass with ARINC X,Y,Z outputs".
>I guess these are probably signals from a compass synchro, and the
>question is if the synchro is 24V/400Hz or 110V/400Hz. Or are these
>signals something different?
I think that's right. When they call out three signal
paths, it's usually the "three-phase" stator signal
from a synchro. Two phase will usually be called sine/cosine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob Nuckolls III:
>Thanks for another year of tremendous support. I am one of the very
>challenged experimental aircraft builders who, without your guidance and
>educational resources (seminar, book, website and list), would never have
>ventured as far. My wife and others look at the work that has been
>accomplished, with your help, and ask "you didn't do that by yourself did
>you"? Thank you Bob for your efforts meking our aviation efforts safer
>and more effective. God bless you and Happy New Year!
>Dave Aronson
Thank you sir . . . and many others who have offered
appreciative comments. I couldn't do it if it wasn't
fun. I'm not going to have the time/opportunity to build
one myself. However, I'm looking forward to being a
participant in perhaps thousands of airplanes with
other builders. After professionally slogging through
the quagmire that is certified aviation, you folks
are a validation for me of the best that aviation CAN
be. All-in-all I think a most satisfactory deal for
all concerned.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Over-voltage, etc |
>
>I wouldn't think that a starter-engaged light is essential for a
>personal aircraft. In most cases a glance at the voltmeter or ammeter as
>soon as idle is achieved should show whether the battery is charging.
>Most won't be if the starter is still spinning.
If one chooses to leave diagnostics tools off the panel
and go with a low-voltage warning light as the primary
electrical system instrumentation for flight, then a
"starter engaged" light is even more of a good deal.
Beech put them on the Sierra (probably a $high$ option
on the Sundowner).
>However if the starter is spinning madly and one opens the battery
>contactor, is there any chance that the starter is now a generator that
>could feed a short overvoltage to the rest of the electrical system?
No, all starters have over-run clutches of one kind
or another. If they did not, the starter's life after
getting the engine running would be measured in milliseconds.
The armature already spins pretty fast to get the necessary
horsepower to crank the engine at 200-400 rpm. Once the engine
starts, a back-driven armature would be spun up to several times
it's design speed. This usually trows armature wires out
of the slots and jams the motor or strips gear teeth.
The reason that some pilots have reported first notification
of starter contactor sticking by observations of other
instruments is the fact that NO LOAD current on these
horribly inefficient motors can be on the order of
50 amps. This is a significant drain on the electrical
system at ramp idle speeds for engine.
A starter engaged light is, for the time and dollars spent,
a really good deal. Keeping your engine tuned to start
in a few blades combined with periodic battery maintenance
is a better deal. Contactors run long and happy in a
system that is maintained well and performs well.
> My
>solid state electronics experience has been that bad things happen when
>the stabilizing effect of a battery is removed from a system. Probably
>part of the reason that I'm leery of battery contactors...
How does your experience relate to the history of
battery contactor performance in aircraft? In 40
years of hammer'n on airplanes, the ov events I've worked
that damaged airplane accessories were due to
poorly designed or non-existent ov protection systems.
In my experience, a battery contactor failure has
never been root cause of a damage scenario to
other components in the system.
Well considered design supported by good maintenance
is the key to long and satisfactory service life.
Certified ships are seldom blessed with either.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> Instrument |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel Flow |
Instrument
Instrument
If you are confused by the wording of Bob's answer (as I was upon first
reading), what he is saying is, yes it is almost guaranteed to be okay.
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Flow Instrument
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the Skymap
>>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge.
>>
>>
>
> If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon
> signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads
> quite nicely.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | tip-up canopy C-624 platsic strip or nylok nuts |
I just drilled my tip-up canopy to the canopy frame. The plans call
for the screws that go thru the side rails and the plexiglass to be
screwed into the C-624 plastic strip along the inside of the frame.
Seems to me that just some washers and nuts would be better. Does any
one have an opinion on this?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent
RV-6A QB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Hi Troy -
We are using this system in our Lancair ES. With the ability to crossfeed
power under any combination of failures, I don't think it is necessary.
With any failure, it is prudent to reduce loads where it is feasible under
the condition of flight you are in.
Cheers,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>I have sent this to the list I thought but apparently I don't know how to.
> Can you use the Hex Crimpers sold by B&C to crimp the round amp BNC
> connectors?
Yes.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( A beginning of the end is marked by )
( replacement of experience and common )
( sense with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Landucci <lllanducci(at)tds.net> |
Bob;
In the generic electrical system schematic (Fig Z-11), I don't
understand the advantage of the 5A breaker between the master switch
and the LR-3 controller plus a fuselink at the main power bus. In the
schematic supplied by B&C for the LR-3 a 5A breaker is shown between
the main power bus and the master and no fuselink is used.
I was considering using a 5A fuse instead of the breaker and going with
the B&C schematic -- any disadvantage?
Thanks for your time,
LarryL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ARINC X,Y,Z outputs |
Thank you Bob,
Jerzy
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I think that's right. When they call out three signal
> paths, it's usually the "three-phase" stator signal
> from a synchro. Two phase will usually be called sine/cosine.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Cut the tree branch |
Eric Jones:
>I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
>Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch.
My
>friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
>thrown over the branch.
Eric,
Yes, I know. These tasks are onerous at best:
PREPARATION
1. Move the Jeep until the falling branch will miss it.
2. Jack up the rear wheels.
3. Remove the nearest wheel and substitute a 1ft diam reel.
4 Buy 40 survivor saws (the small cylindrical pullsaws) and join into
one.
PROCEDURE
5. Use a lead weight to guide fishing line over the branch, and join saw
to one end.
6. With a stout rope joining the ends of [4], coil this onto the wheel.
7. Start jeep in neutral.
8. Taking care to utilize only the saw portion, shift into first, then
alternate in reverse.
9. When you hear a cracking noise, ensure you are in first and kick out
the jack.
CLEANUP
10. Apply the 40 saws to eBAY, and sweep up the sawdust.
11. Simply add a fireplace to the living room and burn the branch.
Ferg
PS: A warm and successful 2004 to you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Hamer" <s.hamer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel FlowInstrument |
The more I read, the confusder I get! Yes it is RS232 serial data according
to my manuals. For the benefit of my electrically challenged mind, please
check one:
0 Yes, it will work
0 No, it won't work
Thanks,
Steve
> If you are confused by the wording of Bob's answer (as I was upon first
> reading), what he is saying is, yes it is almost guaranteed to be okay.
>
> Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
Flow Instrument
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the
Skymap
> >>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon
> > signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads
> > quite nicely.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neal A. Dillman" <neald(at)glyph.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel FlowInstrument |
Steve,
Bob and I both said (roughly) the same thing:
Yes, it will work.
Regards,
Neal
Steve Hamer wrote:
>
>The more I read, the confusder I get! Yes it is RS232 serial data according
>to my manuals. For the benefit of my electrically challenged mind, please
>check one:
>
>0 Yes, it will work
>
>0 No, it won't work
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>>If you are confused by the wording of Bob's answer (as I was upon first
>>reading), what he is saying is, yes it is almost guaranteed to be okay.
>>
>>Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
>>
>>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
> Flow Instrument
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>>>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the
>>>>
>>>>
>Skymap
>
>
>>>>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon
>>> signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads
>>> quite nicely.
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Manual master switch |
Ken,
While a stuck starter is not common on cars, it does happen. My first experience
with this was in the late 70s. I was a mechanic at a large Dodge dealership.
The starter stayed engaged after the engine started. (Winter time, 2200 rpm
start) Upon disassembly, the innards looked like an explosion in a copper wire
factory!
I've seen this phenomenon occur on all makes of cars. Lucas failures tended to
result in severe fires. (insert favorite Lucas joke here) :-)
Charlie Kuss
>
>> What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How
>> do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation
>> of an unplanned arrival with the earth?
>
>How come I never seem to hear about automotive starters getting stuck
>on? Does the accelerating flywheel more forcibly disengage the starter
>gear and contacts on those? I've had several automotive starter failures
>but don't know anyone who has had a stuck on one. Anyway a small battery
>won't last too long if it does stick which puts the risk of fire pretty
>much up to what the battery does. Since you know of at least one RG
>battery that melted in an airplane that may be a concern. Are Lycoming
>starters more prone to sticking than automotive units or just more
>talked about when it happens?
>
>Most of us have seen cars cranked until dead without a battery fire or
>meltdown... I'm talking about cranking till dead not a shorted battery
>terminal situation where all of the energy is heating the battery.
snipped
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Re: Over-voltage, etc |
OK I'm reading very carefully and learning but lets start over as my
wording was incomplete.
Imagine that the engine has been started and is idling. I notice that
the system voltage is abnormally low and the battery is discharging. Or
maybe I did install that starter-engaged light and the darn thing is on.
What to do, what to do? Suspecting a stuck starter contactor, I turn off
the battery master, which disconnects the battery but leaves the rest of
the electrical system connected to the starter. Since there is no diode
across the starter it would seem that there has to be some reverse
voltage applied to my electrical system. If my starter only drew an amp
I'd have a diode across it to prevent this but there is no diode and 50
amps was flowing. I understand that some (I don't know how much) of the
energy will dissipate in the arc as the battery contactor opens but I am
also aware of instances where my automotive efi computer has gone poof
in a fraction of a second when inadvertantly fed 12 volts of reverse
polarity. In this case I wouldn't be worried about that efi computer
because it is still connected to the battery bus. But what about the
avionics and engine monitor that are still connected to the starter?
Will they shrug off an event like that or are steps warranted to prevent
it? Have I saved my battery only to smoke more expensive stuff?
The above scenario is not a regular occurrence but it touches on much of
my concern about using a battery contactor as per Z-14. Is it a valid
concern? Has there been any testing for (negative) spikes in a scenario
like the above?
thanks again
Ken
>snip
> How does your experience relate to the history of
> battery contactor performance in aircraft? In 40
> years of hammer'n on airplanes, the ov events I've worked
> that damaged airplane accessories were due to
> poorly designed or non-existent ov protection systems.
> In my experience, a battery contactor failure has
> never been root cause of a damage scenario to
> other components in the system.
>
> Well considered design supported by good maintenance
> is the key to long and satisfactory service life.
> Certified ships are seldom blessed with either.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Over-voltage, etc |
>
>OK I'm reading very carefully and learning but lets start over as my
>wording was incomplete.
>
>Imagine that the engine has been started and is idling. I notice that
>the system voltage is abnormally low and the battery is discharging. Or
>maybe I did install that starter-engaged light and the darn thing is on.
>What to do, what to do? Suspecting a stuck starter contactor, I turn off
>the battery master, which disconnects the battery but leaves the rest of
>the electrical system connected to the starter. Since there is no diode
>across the starter it would seem that there has to be some reverse
>voltage applied to my electrical system. If my starter only drew an amp
>I'd have a diode across it to prevent this but there is no diode and 50
>amps was flowing.
Motors are not as inductive as you might think. Recall the
discussions on motor performance a few weeks ago. 12v motors
don't run on 12v, they run on the DIFFERENCE between applied
voltage (12v) and counter emf (several volts below applied).
When you unhook a running motor, the only "kick" you get
is from a very small amount of leakage inductance . . . the
energies are small and no-lethal to other components in your
system.
> I understand that some (I don't know how much) of the
>energy will dissipate in the arc as the battery contactor opens but I am
>also aware of instances where my automotive efi computer has gone poof
>in a fraction of a second when inadvertantly fed 12 volts of reverse
>polarity.
Which is a HUGE energy source . . .
> In this case I wouldn't be worried about that efi computer
>because it is still connected to the battery bus. But what about the
>avionics and engine monitor that are still connected to the starter?
>Will they shrug off an event like that or are steps warranted to prevent
>it? Have I saved my battery only to smoke more expensive stuff?
"saved the battery?" Oh, okay, you were hypothesizing about
leaving the battery on and letting the event go to completion.
>The above scenario is not a regular occurrence but it touches on much of
>my concern about using a battery contactor as per Z-14. Is it a valid
>concern? Has there been any testing for (negative) spikes in a scenario
>like the above?
. . . I did some informal studies on this years ago at
Electromech on some smaller motors. I don't have any
reason to believe that the starters are much different
but I can probably put my hands on one to find out.
First, if you take care of the batteries (yearly rotation
schedule or periodic testing and discard when capacity drops
below some nominal value 50-70%) and use both batteries
to start, sticking starter contactors are not going to be
an issue for you anyhow. It's already a very rare event
in the certified world where it's most likely to happen.
I think your worries are without foundation in physics
or practice . . . but it's your airplane and nobody from
Washington is going to stand over you an threaten loss
of liberty for having wired it any way you wish.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hi There <rv90619(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | King radio connectors |
Where can I find the connectors for the back of a King radio. I bought a used
radio and want to rewire it.
Thanks
Cam
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Slow Starter |
<... Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put in the plugs and it will
barely turn
over- the blades almost stopping on each compression stroke ...>
My quick and dirty trouble shoot (works about 90% of the time:
1. Measure voltage at battery cable lugs. Usually very low, like 6-8V.
2. Measure voltage at battery post. Usually high, like 11V
3. Disconnect and polish post and lug. Reconnect, start engine and go flying.
I very rarely need anything beyond a voltmeter to trouble shoot a starting system
.... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neal A. Dillman" <neald(at)glyph.com> |
| Subject: | Re: King radio connectors |
Cam,
You will need to be more specific. Which King radio?
-Neal-
Hi There wrote:
>
>Where can I find the connectors for the back of a King radio. I bought a used
radio and want to rewire it.
>
>Thanks
>Cam
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
Hello all,
I have been working on a Visio symbol stencil set based on Bob's CAD symbols -
Bob, I hope you don't mind. I'm doing 5-10 a day as time permits, so this
first copy is just a test set to be sure it works, but I'd appreciate it if a
few people would download the file and check it out. Visio 2000 or higher is
required.
If this works out I'll incorporate most of the major symbols this weekend,
then do the rest a few at a time as time permits. Check back periodically for
updates.
http://www.lucubration.com/aero/
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MP3 input to panel mounted intercom |
Charles Brame wrote:
>
>Bob, et.al.,
>
>I want to use an MP3 player through my SL-10MS intercom. The intercom
>has stereo music input wiring, but I am a loss as to how to wire a MP3
>player to it.
>
>Most of the MP3 players (and CD players) I have looked at only have an
>output for headphones. As I understand it, you should not hook headphone
>or speaker output directly to an intercom input.
>
>How should a generic MP3 player, or any other music source, be connected
>to a panel intercom system?
>
>Charlie Brame
>RV-6A N11CB
>San Antonio
>
The headphone output of a battery powered device like a cd player or mp3
player (likely power supply voltage 3 V) is very unlikely to overdrive
the aux inputs of an intercom. Just make up a cable to interface the
headphone output to the intercom, hook it up, & start with the player's
volume control at minimum. Power everything up & with the player
playing, slowly raise its volume until you get a usable signal into your
headphones.
You might even have a problem with inadequate signal level. If you do,
you might need to check out Bob's 'isolation amplifier'.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Richard" <steve(at)oasissolutions.com> |
Chad,
Can you post some instructions on how to import your symbols into Visio?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chad
Robinson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Visio Symbols
Hello all,
I have been working on a Visio symbol stencil set based on Bob's CAD
symbols -
Bob, I hope you don't mind. I'm doing 5-10 a day as time permits, so this
first copy is just a test set to be sure it works, but I'd appreciate it if
a
few people would download the file and check it out. Visio 2000 or higher is
required.
If this works out I'll incorporate most of the major symbols this weekend,
then do the rest a few at a time as time permits. Check back periodically
for
updates.
http://www.lucubration.com/aero/
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | batteries and second alternator choice |
Gentlemen,
I've been studying the battery situation. I'm thinking I'll probably
implement Bob's "mother of all electrical systems" with two batteries and
two alternators for my Glasair Super II. I've found the following two 12v
12ah batteries:
PowerSonic PS-12100-F2
Panasonic RA1212P1
Do these two fit the bill? Have any of you had experience with either of
them?
I also checked out two 17ah batteries that Bob specifically recommended in
another post:
PowerSonic PS12180
Panasonic LCRD1217P
The recommended system connects the two batteries together for starting, so
it seems to me that two smaller and lighter 12ah batteries should crank my
normal-compression IO360 just fine. The only thing that bothers me is that
the connectors on the smaller batteries are small, "fast-on" types.
Thoughts? I'm thinking I might install the two batteries on the aft side of
the firewall where installing and removing will be a little awkward. That's
one reason why the 9 pound ones are much more attractive than the 14 pound
ones.
Also, I'm thinking I'd like to use the SD-8 PM-type alternator as the second
one. The primary one is a B&C 60. Thoughts?
December 19, 2003 - January 03, 2004
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ct