AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cv

January 15, 2004 - January 28, 2004



Subject: Re: Main DC Power Master Switch
Date: Jan 15, 2004
The battery buss has power all the time even when the master switch is off. The main buss has power ONLY when the master switch is on. The main buss does not get power from the battery buss -- it gets it from the battery. So if a fuse blows on the battery buss, it only affects whatever you have wired down stream in the current flow from the 7 amp fuse. The main buss continues to have current if the master switch is on. Indiana Larry ((((((((((((((_)))))))))))))))))) ----- Original Message -----
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Main DC Power Master Switch > > Bob, > > Let me first say thank you for the OUTSTANDING seminar last week at > Jefferson City, MO!!! I am sure posts like this happen all the time, but if > you are on the fence about attending a weekend seminar - you GOTTA do it. > The best $150 I have spent in a long time. > > I will be using a modified Z-11 for my plane. I will be using an internally > regulated alternator and will be adding OV protection and a low voltage > monitoring system (not using the LR-3). Now for the question....Why is a > 700-2-10 switch required for the "Main DC Power Master Switch"? It looks to > me like a S700-2-3 would do the same thing. Maybe I am not reading the > schematic correctly. > > Additionally, why is there a 7 amp fuse inline coming off the main battery > bus to the E-Bus for the essential bus alternate feed circuit? Aren't those > circuits already protected on the essential bus with their own fuses. > Unless I am missing something, this means that if I have a problem that > would require me to turn off the master switch that power would be routed to > the essential bus from the main battery bus to power the flight critical > stuff. Now what happens if I have a problem with my NAV/COMM that also has > a 7 amp fuse and the fuse on the main battery bus blows instead of the fuse > on the essential bus protecting the radio? I would loose all the power to > the essential bus and I would only have power to the main battery bus. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Unprotected fuel pump wires on battery bus.
Date: Jan 16, 2004
Hello Dan, did you ever measure your pump in a wet condition? I have a facet std pump, 3A fused, peak draw switch on 1.2 A running with 0.9A. Same with my Aux pumps, fused 7.5 A, inrush 2.6A running with 2.4A Werner ----- Original Message ----- From: <danobrien(at)cox.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected fuel pump wires on battery bus. > > Two philosophies discussed on the list raise the following dilemma. Philosophy 1 says to put the boost pump on the battery bus because it may be necessary for continued operation of the engine in situations where it makes sense to open the master switch. Philosophy 2 says to avoid having always-hot feeders protected at more than 5 amps for crash safety reasons. My boost pump is to be protected at 10 amps, and the battery bus will be in the rear of the airplane. > > What's the best course given this dilemma? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> bus.
Subject: Re: Unprotected fuel pump wires on battery
bus. bus. > > >Hello Dan, > >did you ever measure your pump in a wet condition? I have a facet std pump, >3A fused, peak draw switch on 1.2 A running with 0.9A. Same with my Aux >pumps, fused 7.5 A, inrush 2.6A running with 2.4A > >Werner > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <danobrien(at)cox.net> >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected fuel pump wires on battery bus. > > > > > > Two philosophies discussed on the list raise the following dilemma. >Philosophy 1 says to put the boost pump on the battery bus because it may be >necessary for continued operation of the engine in situations where it makes >sense to open the master switch. Philosophy 2 says to avoid having >always-hot feeders protected at more than 5 amps for crash safety reasons. >My boost pump is to be protected at 10 amps, and the battery bus will be in >the rear of the airplane. > > > > What's the best course given this dilemma? You can always use a relay mounted at the battery bus to control the larger than 5A feeder. It would be like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/E-BusFatFeed.gif except that instead of feeding the e-bus from the battery bus, you're feeding the fuel pump or any other accessory fused at more than 5A. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2004
Subject: A Battery is you best filter
From: Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Hi Bob, In a previous response you indicated that "a battery is your best filter", and recommended bringing my #12 SD-8 feed to the SD-8 relay at the battery instead of feeding the e-bus fuse block behind the panel. OK, following this recommendation I was originally going to locate the SD-8 relay close to the contactor and connect to the contactor using a sort 4" length of #16 fuselink. The physical lay out doing this was not ideal and therefore I have decided to mount the SD-8 relay adjacent to the e-bus feed relay. The e-bus relay is feed by the battery bus via a fuse and a short 4" #12 wire. And now the same holds true for the SD-8 relay, it is feed by the battery bus via a fuse and a short 4" #12 wire. The battery bus is close to the contactor feed by 5" #12. And yes the battery is only inches from the contactor. OK, finally to my question. Am I getting the same degree of "a battery is your best filter" feeding the SD-8 though the battery bus as I would have feeding the contactor? Sorry to make you read all of this but I am cureous about this filtering function of the battery? Last question for tonight, I promise! I do not have a electric starter (air start) and therefore no starter contactor. therefore I was planning to bring the main 50 amp alternator feed via a 60 ANL to the main distribution bus located behind the panel. I am now thinking that bringing the alternator feed down under the seat to the battery contactor (with the 60 ANL close to the contactor) could reduce possible noise because "a battery is your best filter" The # 6 welding cable used would then be running in the same raceway as my #4 + & - Fat wires. This will also be the main conduit for my other wire flowing from the panel to the fuselage. What say you Bob. Thanks, Don B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Why Loran
> >In a message dated 1/15/04 8:18:28 AM Central Standard Time, >bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes: >Given the dirt cheap chip-sets for receiving/decoding both > signals, it's always mystified me as to why folks didn't offer > dual receivers . . . with software to integrate the two signals > together into a nav package with a very high order of accuracy > and reliability. >Obviously, that has been done by both Northstar and Trimble. > >The Trimble TNL 3000 was their first offering of a dual use box. It receives >both Loran and GPS signals. They have a comparator circuit that allows the >set to use whichever is deemed the most accurate by the algorithm used. The >TNL 3000T then came along and it was IFR certified for enroute and >terminal use, >but not for approaches. When Trimble went to the approach approval, they >dropped the Loran portion. >I do miss the Loran, but then again, I thought the four course ranges were >pretty neat as well! > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob Shows how much I've kept up with the panel mounted stuff. When you think about flying 4-course + airways markers though weather that's ALWAYS crashing in the headphones . . . geesh! It's hard enough to be a pilot and keep it right side up. Guess that's what copilots are for! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Rapids EIS 4000 MAP sensor
> >Hi Bob, > >Do you see anything against using automotive vacuum tubing in this >application? >A fitting with a short say 3" length of steel tubing on the number three >cylinder head for heat protection would seem to deal with the main heat >related potential failure mode. > >Jim in Kelowna Whatever results in the fewest parts/joints in the system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Main DC Power Master Switch
> > >Bob, > >Let me first say thank you for the OUTSTANDING seminar last week at >Jefferson City, MO!!! I am sure posts like this happen all the time, but if >you are on the fence about attending a weekend seminar - you GOTTA do it. >The best $150 I have spent in a long time. Thank you. I hope the effort saves you several times that amount in dollars and time to get your project finished. >I will be using a modified Z-11 for my plane. I will be using an internally >regulated alternator and will be adding OV protection and a low voltage >monitoring system (not using the LR-3). Now for the question....Why is a >700-2-10 switch required for the "Main DC Power Master Switch"? It looks to >me like a S700-2-3 would do the same thing. Maybe I am not reading the >schematic correctly. It would . . . the 2-10 gives you a mid battery-only position which emulates the popular split-rocker master switch . . . but when you have crowbar ov protection, you need a breaker in the alternator field line anyhow . . . make it pullable and you can use a 2-3 switch for normal ops and pull the breaker any time you're doing battery only ops on ground or need to shut down a mis-behaving alternator. >Additionally, why is there a 7 amp fuse inline coming off the main battery >bus to the E-Bus for the essential bus alternate feed circuit? Aren't those >circuits already protected on the essential bus with their own fuses. >Unless I am missing something, this means that if I have a problem that >would require me to turn off the master switch that power would be routed to >the essential bus from the main battery bus to power the flight critical >stuff. Now what happens if I have a problem with my NAV/COMM that also has >a 7 amp fuse and the fuse on the main battery bus blows instead of the fuse >on the essential bus protecting the radio? I would loose all the power to >the essential bus and I would only have power to the main battery bus. We need to consider the max load on the e-bus and size the alternate feed fuse accordingly. The battery bus fuse (or fusible link) should be stout enough to stay put should any e-bus feeder become faulted. If you need a fat e-bus alternate feed, consider http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/E-BusFatFeed.gif Bob . . . >Thanks, >Jeff > > Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Bench Test Power Supply Size
Date: Jan 15, 2004
Hi Bob, I have dual batteries in the rear of the airplane and dual E.I., MicroAir radio & Xpdr, digitrak auto pilot, RMI encoder, and Grand Rapids EIS 4000 engine monitor, and F.I. pump for fairly modest electrical requirements. I was in Radio Shack and they had three power supplies. 1.75, 3, and 10 amps. Don't know the Volts but the archives mentioned 13.8 volts. What minimum amps and volts should one get to test the electrical system? Is the volts adjustable or how important is the voltage? I assume the power supply should be hooked to the battery leads. I also seem to remember a discussion by you for setting up the power supply in a certain way to duplicate what the system would see as if it were running off of the alternator but can't find in the archives. Thanks, Rick Fogerson RV3 wiring Boise, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2004
From: "Neal A. Dillman" <neald(at)glyph.com>
Subject: Re: Loran Antenna Pre Amp
Don, Yes, I believe that is correct. Regards, Neal Don Boardman wrote: > >Hi Neal, > >So are you saying that using a "real" Loran Antenna, one of those that was >designed to look like a Cessna com antenna, the pre amp is not necessary? > > > >>If I remember correctly, That preamp is designed to work with "long-wire >>antennas" (ie: an ADF antenna). The unit get's mounted to the fuselage >>(it needs to see ground) next to the start of the long-wire antenna. >> >>Regards, >>Neal >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 16, 2004
Subject: Re: Loran Antenna Pre Amp
In a message dated 1/16/04 12:34:28 AM Central Standard Time, neald(at)glyph.com writes: Hi Neal, > >So are you saying that using a "real" Loran Antenna, one of those that was >designed to look like a Cessna com antenna, the pre amp is not necessary? Good Evening Neal and Don, If I Recall Correctly, the Loran antenna for my Trimble combo unit had a built in amplifier in the Loran antenna. The one we used for our Pacer was a stock com antenna and it needed the addition of the appropriate amplifier. Not sure "amplifier" is the right word, but it needed something to allow the use of the stock comm antenna where the specialty antenna from Trimble had no such need. It is also my understanding that my old Trimble Loran antenna is not a satisfactory comm antenna due to it's having whatever it is that is required to match the antenna to the Loran receiver built into the antenna base. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: John Mireley <mireley(at)msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bench Test Power Supply Size
Rick Fogerson wrote: > > Hi Bob, > I have dual batteries in the rear of the airplane and dual E.I., MicroAir radio & Xpdr, digitrak auto pilot, RMI encoder, and Grand Rapids EIS 4000 engine monitor, and F.I. pump for fairly modest electrical requirements. > > I was in Radio Shack and they had three power supplies. 1.75, 3, and 10 amps. Don't know the Volts but the archives mentioned 13.8 volts. What minimum amps and volts should one get to test the electrical system? > > Is the volts adjustable or how important is the voltage? > > I assume the power supply should be hooked to the battery leads. I also seem to remember a discussion by you for setting up the power supply in a certain way to duplicate what the system would see as if it were running off of the alternator but can't find in the archives. > Here is a good value for 9 to 15 volts at 10 amps. http://www.web-tronics.com/25ampswitpow.html Here is one that goes to 30 volts at 5 amps. http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=PS32LAB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Bullshooter Digital Voice Recorder
Bob, While checking out the 0-30v power supply at Ramsey Electronics, I browsed around and found they have a digital voice recorder kit, called the Bullshooter Endless Voice Storage Recorder. (http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=BS1C) How difficult would it be to use something like this for recording ATC clearances? Or, do you know of a better choice at less than $100. How would I go about connecting this into my audio system? Thanks, Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Tefzel immersed in fuel
Anybody have a source that defines how the Tefzel coating on mil spec wire handles being immersed in aircraft fuels (both gasoline and jet fuel)? Thanks. Joa --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bullshooter Digital Voice Recorder
> > >Bob, >While checking out the 0-30v power supply at Ramsey Electronics, I browsed >around and found they have a digital voice recorder kit, called the >Bullshooter Endless Voice Storage >Recorder. >(http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=BS1C) > >How difficult would it be to use something like this for recording ATC >clearances? Or, do you know of a better choice at less than $100. How >would I go about connecting this into my audio system? Something like this can most likely be added to your audio system . . . but do you REALLY want to? First, consider that this is another gizmo in the airplane that takes space, weight, maintaining, and $time$. Next, consider that it punches a hole in your attention at a critical time during departure or clearance to another fix . . . when you get a clearance, the controller expects an accurate echo from you . . . right now, not some time later after you've verified what's on your audio recorder. I read an article many, MANY moons ago in some aviation journal by a pilot who flew a lot of IFR. It might have been by Peter Garrison. In any case, he described a set of shorthand symbols for common clearance delivery jargon. A small example is shown here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/shorthand.gif it reads, "Climb runway heading. Contact departure on 123.975, level at 3000 unless advised otherwise." As I recall there were only about a dozen symbols. You can devise your own. The bottom line of this discussion is that a pad on your kneeboard is faster, more reliable, and integrates well with other notes which you might need about the trip. Having a voice recorder tied to your audio system is like storing your sugar out in the garage. Everything else is in kitchen when you're ready to cook but with one of many important ingredients stored in a rather unhandy place. Methinks this is an unnecessary and perhaps unwise distraction from being a pilot first and data manager second. It's precisely for this reason that I don't think the hypothesized mode-S driven printer will take hold. Having your transponder spit out a slip of paper is akin to trying to replace your hand-held accessory batteries en-route. What if you drop the slip, get it mixed up with others, or printer is out of paper? I'll suggest that the "best" way to drive a nail is with a hammer . . . and the best way to record ATC instructions is with a pencil. However, if you want to give this a try, get me a schematic of your recorder and I'll show you how to wire it to your airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Tefzel immersed in fuel
> > >Anybody have a source that defines how the Tefzel coating on mil spec wire >handles being immersed in aircraft fuels (both gasoline and jet fuel)? > >Thanks. > >Joa What is your concer? See: http://www.polymerplastics.com/fluoro_tefzel.shtml http://www.teflon.com/Teflon/downloads/pdf/e18663-7.pdf http://www.engvalves.com/clbv99/clbv99pg5.pdf Lot's more with google search on tefzel and hydrocarbons . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Bullshooter Digital Voice Recorder
> > I'll suggest that the "best" way to drive a nail is with > a hammer . . . and the best way to record ATC instructions > is with a pencil. > > Bob . . . That's kinda what I thought, but thought I would ask anyway. I need to go and work on my cockpit shorthand now. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: Main DC Power Master Switch
Date: Jan 16, 2004
Larry, With all due respect sir, you need to read my question again and then read your reply. Please have Z-11 handy when you read my message and I suspect you will post a completely different reply. To give you a few hints....I never said anything about the battery bus not having power all the time, I never said anything about the main bus having power when the master switch was off, I never said anything about the main bus getting power from the battery bus, if that essential bus alternate feed circuit 7 amp fuse blows I will loose everything on the essential bus (that is down stream) if I have the essential bus alternate feed circuit switched closed. Thanks for trying though. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: LarryRobertHelming Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Main DC Power Master Switch The battery buss has power all the time even when the master switch is off. The main buss has power ONLY when the master switch is on. The main buss does not get power from the battery buss -- it gets it from the battery. So if a fuse blows on the battery buss, it only affects whatever you have wired down stream in the current flow from the 7 amp fuse. The main buss continues to have current if the master switch is on. Indiana Larry ((((((((((((((_)))))))))))))))))) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Main DC Power Master Switch > > Bob, > > Let me first say thank you for the OUTSTANDING seminar last week at > Jefferson City, MO!!! I am sure posts like this happen all the time, but if > you are on the fence about attending a weekend seminar - you GOTTA do it. > The best $150 I have spent in a long time. > > I will be using a modified Z-11 for my plane. I will be using an internally > regulated alternator and will be adding OV protection and a low voltage > monitoring system (not using the LR-3). Now for the question....Why is a > 700-2-10 switch required for the "Main DC Power Master Switch"? It looks to > me like a S700-2-3 would do the same thing. Maybe I am not reading the > schematic correctly. > > Additionally, why is there a 7 amp fuse inline coming off the main battery > bus to the E-Bus for the essential bus alternate feed circuit? Aren't those > circuits already protected on the essential bus with their own fuses. > Unless I am missing something, this means that if I have a problem that > would require me to turn off the master switch that power would be routed to > the essential bus from the main battery bus to power the flight critical > stuff. Now what happens if I have a problem with my NAV/COMM that also has > a 7 amp fuse and the fuse on the main battery bus blows instead of the fuse > on the essential bus protecting the radio? I would loose all the power to > the essential bus and I would only have power to the main battery bus. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Tefzel immersed in fuel
Date: Jan 16, 2004
One thought I had is to be careful where the other end of the wire goes. Wires act nicely as pipes for liquids through the capillary effect. Regards, Trampas -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tefzel immersed in fuel > > >Anybody have a source that defines how the Tefzel coating on mil spec wire >handles being immersed in aircraft fuels (both gasoline and jet fuel)? > >Thanks. > >Joa What is your concer? See: http://www.polymerplastics.com/fluoro_tefzel.shtml http://www.teflon.com/Teflon/downloads/pdf/e18663-7.pdf http://www.engvalves.com/clbv99/clbv99pg5.pdf Lot's more with google search on tefzel and hydrocarbons . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
"'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com '"
Subject: Main DC Power Master Switch
Date: Jan 16, 2004
Bob, Thanks for the information. I would rather spend $7.50 then $19.50 for a switch if they accomplish the same thing. My thinking on the essential bus alternate feed circuit is that all the individual circuts are protected, why have that 7 amp circuit protection or a fusible link at all? There is no circuit protection between the battery and the main bus and there is no circuit protection between the battery and the main battery bus, why would this be any different? Seems like we are adding parts count for no reason. I have have already incorporated my own version of the E bus fat feeder using a relay. I also moved several components from the E bus to the main bus to reduce the load. -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Main DC Power Master Switch > > >Bob, > >Let me first say thank you for the OUTSTANDING seminar last week at >Jefferson City, MO!!! I am sure posts like this happen all the time, but if >you are on the fence about attending a weekend seminar - you GOTTA do it. >The best $150 I have spent in a long time. Thank you. I hope the effort saves you several times that amount in dollars and time to get your project finished. >I will be using a modified Z-11 for my plane. I will be using an internally >regulated alternator and will be adding OV protection and a low voltage >monitoring system (not using the LR-3). Now for the question....Why is a >700-2-10 switch required for the "Main DC Power Master Switch"? It looks to >me like a S700-2-3 would do the same thing. Maybe I am not reading the >schematic correctly. It would . . . the 2-10 gives you a mid battery-only position which emulates the popular split-rocker master switch . . . but when you have crowbar ov protection, you need a breaker in the alternator field line anyhow . . . make it pullable and you can use a 2-3 switch for normal ops and pull the breaker any time you're doing battery only ops on ground or need to shut down a mis-behaving alternator. >Additionally, why is there a 7 amp fuse inline coming off the main battery >bus to the E-Bus for the essential bus alternate feed circuit? Aren't those >circuits already protected on the essential bus with their own fuses. >Unless I am missing something, this means that if I have a problem that >would require me to turn off the master switch that power would be routed to >the essential bus from the main battery bus to power the flight critical >stuff. Now what happens if I have a problem with my NAV/COMM that also has >a 7 amp fuse and the fuse on the main battery bus blows instead of the fuse >on the essential bus protecting the radio? I would loose all the power to >the essential bus and I would only have power to the main battery bus. We need to consider the max load on the e-bus and size the alternate feed fuse accordingly. The battery bus fuse (or fusible link) should be stout enough to stay put should any e-bus feeder become faulted. If you need a fat e-bus alternate feed, consider http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/E-BusFatFeed.gif Bob . . . >Thanks, >Jeff > > Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2004
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tefzel immersed in fuel
Perfect info, thanks. Joa ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.polymerplastics.com/fluoro_tefzel.shtml http://www.teflon.com/Teflon/downloads/pdf/e18663-7.pdf http://www.engvalves.com/clbv99/clbv99pg5.pdf --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Main DC Power Master Switch
> > >Bob, > >Thanks for the information. I would rather spend $7.50 then $19.50 for a >switch if they accomplish the same thing. > >My thinking on the essential bus alternate feed circuit is that all the >individual circuts are protected, why have that 7 amp circuit protection or >a fusible link at all? There is no circuit protection between the battery >and the main bus and there is no circuit protection between the battery and >the main battery bus, why would this be any different? Seems like we are >adding parts count for no reason. Feeds between battery and main bus are generally really big wires . . . that could conceivably carry as much load as the alternator puts out. It's hard to burn a fat wire. On the other hand, e-bus alternate feed is a smaller feed easily smoked by fault currents that a battery can deliver. Hence the need for something in the way of a breaker, fuse or fusible link to limit potential for damage. Wire between battery and battery bus is generally limited to something on the order of 6" . . . yeah, we MIGHT burn it but even then, consequences are limited. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Bullshooter Digital Voice Recorder
> > >*** >*** I'll suggest that the "best" way to drive a nail is with >*** a hammer . . . and the best way to record ATC instructions >*** is with a pencil. > >I agree with you on jotting down your clearance instructions with a >pencil. However, have you built a fence lately? There's no way you can >beat a pneumatic nailer. You betcha . . . but then you're not studying for a test and then taking notes by driving patterns of nails into the wood. Voice recorders have VERY useful applications too . . . it's the systems integration analysis where a light sprinkle of alternative technologies can create more problems than they solve. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: 12vDC nominal power supply
Date: Jan 17, 2004
Fellow 'hams' on net may agree with this: In or near urban areas, there is probably an Amateur Radio organisation which holds regular or annual "flea markets" for radio enthusiasts. Since ham radios now are powered mostly by 12vDC, there are often used power supplies which are variable in both voltage and current parameters up to about 25-30 amps. The only time you find a cheap ham is when another one notices it, so there can be bargains. Mine was $30 and that's Canadian (about 20cents US) and I've had it for five years. It might be worth the time............. Ferg Europa 914 mono ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bench Test Power Supply Size
> >Hi Bob, >I have dual batteries in the rear of the airplane and dual E.I., MicroAir >radio & Xpdr, digitrak auto pilot, RMI encoder, and Grand Rapids EIS 4000 >engine monitor, and F.I. pump for fairly modest electrical requirements. > >I was in Radio Shack and they had three power supplies. 1.75, 3, and 10 >amps. Don't know the Volts but the archives mentioned 13.8 volts. What >minimum amps and volts should one get to test the electrical system? > >Is the volts adjustable or how important is the voltage? > > I assume the power supply should be hooked to the battery leads. I also > seem to remember a discussion by you for setting up the power supply in a > certain way to duplicate what the system would see as if it were running > off of the alternator but can't find in the archives. > >Thanks, >Rick Fogerson >RV3 wiring >Boise, ID The general rule of thumb is buy the biggest one you're willing to pony up for up to the size of your alternator. If you're thumb isn't quite that "green", then consider a supply that's big enough to run the largest single system on your airplane. My personal favorite (and the one I used to sell from my website) is the Samlex 1223. One supplier of this product can be found at http://www.aaradio.com/cartfile/misc%20html/samlex.html This is a hefty little bugger. You can connect it to the B-lead of your alternator and the airplane believes that the engine is running when in fact, you've only plugged the electrical system into the wall. This supply will let you charge the battery and operate most systems in combination and even the heaviest draw systems (pitot heat, klieg lights for landing, etc.) independently. The 13.8 volts fixed output is fine . . it won't do a rapid battery recharge but it will put 100% charge on a battery in a few hours. This same supply is useful for testing individual components and systems on the bench . . . since it does not offer adjustable current limiting, I'd plan on using an in-line, ATC fuse holder in series with the feeders from this supply . . . put the smallest practical fuse in for doing your test. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: Bench Test Power Supply Size
Hi Bob, I just ordered this, since their web site says it can be "user converted" to 220v input for those of us who need that. Of course, they don't ship outside the USA, so you better have a friend or relative that can forward it on to you. Too bad I didn't know about this company last month when I was in Austin! > ... My personal favorite > (and the one I used to sell from my website) is the Samlex 1223. > One supplier of this product can be found at > > http://www.aaradio.com/cartfile/misc%20html/samlex.html -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
Subject: Re: Bench Test Power Supply Size
From: Gerry Holland <gnholland(at)onetel.com>
Have a look at: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/b+k%20precision/1688and1686.htm I have a 240V version here in UK and it's been invaluable. Seems to cost a lot more in US at $299.00 (Mine was 95.00 UK Pounds) It's great asset is that it has an Ammeter which has proved very useful when 'loading up' Aircraft systems during wiring and testing. Three different outputs with 2 X 3A Outputs as required. Regards Gerry Gerry Holland Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Fuselage being Painted, Wings ready to paint, Flying surfaces painted Airframe Wiring complete, Full Size Panel 50% done . Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted. Activity on Panel completion, Heater Unit. http://www.g-fizy.com +44 7808 402404 gnholland(at)onetel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: Bench Test Power Supply Size
For those that like to get multiple uses from their tools: If all you want to do is supply ground power to the plane's systems & aren't concerned with current measurements, etc., consider one of the 'jump start' packs available almost everywhere for as little as $40. They contain a 12V SLA battery, an AC trickle charger, a cigar lighter jack usable to extract medium current to your a/c, & as a bonus you get a jump start pack to start that little-used truck or tractor with the dead battery. For over-current protection you can add an inline fuse to the cigar lighter cable that's usually included. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: A Battery is you best filter
> >Hi Bob, > >In a previous response you indicated that "a battery is your best filter", >and recommended bringing my #12 SD-8 feed to the SD-8 relay at the battery >instead of feeding the e-bus fuse block behind the panel. > >OK, following this recommendation I was originally going to locate the SD-8 >relay close to the contactor and connect to the contactor using a sort 4" >length of #16 fuselink. The physical lay out doing this was not ideal and >therefore I have decided to mount the SD-8 relay adjacent to the e-bus feed >relay. The e-bus relay is feed by the battery bus via a fuse and a short 4" >#12 wire. And now the same holds true for the SD-8 relay, it is feed by the >battery bus via a fuse and a short 4" #12 wire. The battery bus is close to >the contactor feed by 5" #12. And yes the battery is only inches from the >contactor. > >OK, finally to my question. Am I getting the same degree of "a battery is >your best filter" feeding the SD-8 though the battery bus as I would have >feeding the contactor? Sorry to make you read all of this but I am cureous >about this filtering function of the battery? Yes, we're slicing milliohms up here . . . what I'd like to do is move as far away as practical from the cookie-cutter architecture of yesteryear where alternators (and other noise generating accessories) share the bus with potential victims. This means get alternators tied to their smoothing battery with the shortest practical length of fattest practical wire. What you'd originally proposed may have sufficed for your needs . . . these are things we really don't know until you try it . . . and then because your working in the OBAM aircraft community, you can easily fix something that's not to your liking later. It's difficult to put a meaningful magnitude of risk on various design decisions. From a product design perspective, we try to apply ALL the techniques that have a basis in physics to improve the product or reduce risk . . . but a some point after the big dragons have been corralled, further improvements will have diminishing and/or negligible degrees of improvement. Your risks are small because they're easy to fix. Feel free to experiment with your experimental airplane. Bob . . . >Last question for tonight, I promise! > >I do not have a electric starter (air start) and therefore no starter >contactor. therefore I was planning to bring the main 50 amp alternator feed >via a 60 ANL to the main distribution bus located behind the panel. I am now >thinking that bringing the alternator feed down under the seat to the >battery contactor (with the 60 ANL close to the contactor) could reduce >possible noise because "a battery is your best filter" The # 6 welding >cable used would then be running in the same raceway as my #4 + & - Fat >wires. This will also be the main conduit for my other wire flowing from the >panel to the fuselage. What say you Bob. You're thoughts are running on the right track. Can you buy #6 welding cable? Hmmm . . . I guess I've seen small electric welders that could make good use of #6. The only thing I see on the spools at my local favorite shop is 4, 2 and 0 . . . In any case, what you've suggested is founded upon rational consideration. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
Subject: #6 Welding Cable
From: Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Bob, thanks for your comments on "a battery is your best filter" They help give me a direction. > You're thoughts are running on the right track. Can you buy > #6 welding cable? Hmmm . . . I guess I've seen small electric > welders that could make good use of #6. The only thing I see > on the spools at my local favorite shop is 4, 2 and 0 . . . I was planning on using all #4 Fat wires because you felt #6 would not be available. I went to our local welding supply and just for the hell of it asked if they had #6. The sales girl said, sure do, how many feet do you want. So I went with the #6 for alternator feed as called for buy the manufacturer and saved some size and weight. You are absolutely right about the flexibility of the welding cable. A delight to work with. Thanks again. Till my next question ... Don B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Good Stuff from other Sources....
Date: Jan 17, 2004
There's lots of good stuff for airplanes in magazines and catalogs aimed at a completely different crowd. Half of everything you ever wanted can be found in yachting magazines. But my stepson will be 16 next month so hot cars and hot babes percolate through his brain. I am thus heir to a growing catalog library of Tune-O-Rama souped-up imports a la "The Fast and Furious" . I learn a lot by looking over his shoulder-new designs in vehicles, winged or not, is booming in the Oriental-Mexican-Laid-Off-High-Tech land of El Monte, Pomona, and Santa Fe Springs. And some of these designs are positively brilliant! Prices are not bad either. Entertainment systems have gone over to huge shock mounted remotely located hard-drives, with displays and controls on flat screen videos on the panel. Available touch-screen selections include, Audio, Video, DVD, Cameras(!). NAV (GPS), Games, etc. See www.TRC12Volt.com. Cool Instruments-Analog gauges were never completely taken over by digits. Now the analog gauges are better than ever and many meters are little flat-screens that do tricks. Round analog gauges have found a new home on "pods" located on what they used to call the A-pillar. A great place for high-visual value gauges. Superb lighting too, lots of Indiglo. I'd look at these before buying from the aircraft folks. More neat tricks-Beltronics has a neat little Performance Timer Accelerometer. Since the thing is a timer and accelerometer coupled to a microprocessor, they do amazing things with it. Among other things it measures horsepower. How neat would it be to build a device that tells you if you're going to be able to take off in the available runway using such a device as a start? Heads-up displays-see www.holosport.com. Titanium mufflers, HID lights, LEDs, racing seats, mixture gauges (I never suspected that anyone made these!), control stick booties-you WISH your engine compartment and interior could look this good! Now where do they get those young babes in the carbon-fiber bikinis? Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ps: Bob---That's a battery am you best filter ... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: Bench Test Power Supply Size
Date: Jan 17, 2004
I found the post below in the archives from 2002. I've had the PS below since then. It has worked great and done everything I need to do while wiring and testing the plane. Postponing the battery purchase as long as possible is a good thing.. - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Radio Shack's website at http://www.radioshack.com now sells the Samlex SEC1223 for less that I used to buy it wholesale. Go to their website and enter 910-3916 as a search term. I think the description is in error. It's really a 13.8 volt, 23A switchmode power supply. I sold about two dozen of them from our website catalog a coupld of years ago and gave a few away at weekend seminars. 23A will run EVERYTHING in your airplane as long as you don't turn pitot heat on too . . . It's on sale right now for $89.00 . . . Snap 'em up guys, this is a good price for that much snort in a power supply. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2004
From: Hi There <rv90619(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Lightspeed Plasma II
I have a lightspeed plasma II. I ordered a II+ but this is what showed up. I was thinking of keeping it if I can get a tach signal out of it. I don't need the other options the II+ has and the 150 bucks back would be nice. Anyone know if it's possible? I sent a note to lightspeed but I can't wait until Monday to decide what to do. I leave on a three week long business trip early Monday morning. Thanks Cam --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Lightspeed Plasma II
Date: Jan 17, 2004
Cam, Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/one can use signals from the Plasma II for RPM, but keep in mind that they are taking the output and running it through a computer to get the RPM displayed. I understand this also means that if you have one mag and one Plasma II as I do, you can't get a RPM reading on a mag check. Terry RV-8A wiring Seattle I have a lightspeed plasma II. I ordered a II+ but this is what showed up. I was thinking of keeping it if I can get a tach signal out of it. I don't need the other options the II+ has and the 150 bucks back would be nice. Anyone know if it's possible? I sent a note to lightspeed but I can't wait until Monday to decide what to do. I leave on a three week long business trip early Monday morning. Thanks Cam --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Lightspeed Plasma II
Date: Jan 18, 2004
OF course the Pulsar 200 can take Plasma tach signal. www.sterntech.com Regards, Trampas Stern -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed Plasma II Cam, Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/one can use signals from the Plasma II for RPM, but keep in mind that they are taking the output and running it through a computer to get the RPM displayed. I understand this also means that if you have one mag and one Plasma II as I do, you can't get a RPM reading on a mag check. Terry RV-8A wiring Seattle I have a lightspeed plasma II. I ordered a II+ but this is what showed up. I was thinking of keeping it if I can get a tach signal out of it. I don't need the other options the II+ has and the 150 bucks back would be nice. Anyone know if it's possible? I sent a note to lightspeed but I can't wait until Monday to decide what to do. I leave on a three week long business trip early Monday morning. Thanks Cam --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Wiegenstein" <n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com>
Subject: Panel Lighting Options
Date: Jan 18, 2004
I've got 3 of the Van's eyeball lights but am waffling over whether to go with those (either on the cockpit sides, or more likely recessed at intervals in a foam mounting block run along the underside of the glare shield skin) or something like the strip lighting kit from Aero Enhancements (www.aeroenhancements.com), which looks neat and provides an easy mounting setup on the underside of the glare shield skin, but kind of spendy. Any recent experience by any listers with either option? I've got a tip-up 6 with a few internally lit instruments, but the flight instruments are unlighted. Any other options that people are using with good results? John Wiegenstein Hansville, WA RV-6 N727JW (reserved) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Benford2(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
In a message dated 1/18/2004 8:33:32 AM Mountain Standard Time, n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com writes: > > I've got 3 of the Van's eyeball lights but am waffling over whether to go > with those (either on the cockpit sides, or more likely recessed at > intervals in a foam mounting block run along the underside of the glare > shield skin) or something like the strip lighting kit from Aero Enhancements > (www.aeroenhancements.com), which looks neat and provides an easy mounting > setup on the underside of the glare shield skin, but kind of spendy. Any > recent experience by any listers with either option? I've got a tip-up 6 > with a few internally lit instruments, but the flight instruments are > unlighted. Any other options that people are using with good results? > > John Wiegenstein > I have the Aero Enhancements duel light strips on my Zenith 801. Very nice and a pleasing to the eye color. My only regret is I should have left a longer overhang to my top skin over the panel. The slant angle of the strips barely light the lower gauges. This is my design error though. I did speak to those guys at S&F last year and they had a source of same color leds to mount overhead and spot the dead areas. I would buy their product again.. Ben Haas N801BH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma II
From: Kent Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
My lightspeed plasma (not Plasma II) puts out a +10V 1.4ms square wave pulse that drives a JPI digital electronic tach. The JPI tach has to be setup for this spec pulse. I suspect Plasma II is the same. You can download a wiring diagram from Lightspeed's website. --Kent A. > From: Hi There <rv90619(at)yahoo.com> > I have a lightspeed plasma II. I ordered a II+ but this is what showed up. I > was thinking of keeping it if I can get a tach signal out of it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Help with Cessna OV module
>Hi Bob, > >I noticed that you answered and helped many people in an aviation >electronics forum >that I found and just wondered if you might be able to help me ??? > >I've been looking for a schematic of a circuit for several years with no >success. The >item in question is the Overvoltage Sensor Switch used in the older Cessna >aircraft. >The sensor is about 3 inches long in a cylinder sleeve about 3/4 inch in >diameter and >has three wires coming out. The RED wire is 12 volts in, the BLACK is >common ground, >and the ORANGE is the output to the alternator field. > >The circuit is designed to cut off the voltage to the alternator field if >the input >voltage reaches around 16 volts or so and must be reset by disconnecting and >reaplying power to the input. > >I've tried to take one if these units apart and found them to be potted >and didn't >have much success getting the potting off. I did find that it has a 1K >pot on the end >which was used for the final alignment before sealing it up. I'm aware >that new >aircraft use the crowbar type device but I'm really hoping to find a >schematic for >this device. > >Would you happen to have one or be able to point me in the right direction to >find one ? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks You came to the right place. As near as I can remember, this device was the only time I ever got shafted by a potential customer who was also a former employer. About 1972, the regulator of choice for Cessna S.E. aircraft was the electro-mechanical "ford" regulators. These regulators featured a single 3-stage, voltage control relay and a field excitation control relay as see here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles//ALTREG2.JPG When we first replaced generators with alternators a few years earlier, overvoltage conditions were not a hot item on the failure mode effects analysis (assuming we even HAD an FMEA procedure back then). A short time after we began to install the FORD regulator, we had a rash of failures that produced some unhappy ov events. Seems the nylon bobbin used to form the coil on the voltage control relay was loose on the relay frame. Shake, rattle and roll of the regulator would break the very fine (30AWG or so) leadwire of the coil . . . the relay would sense "zero volts" and the command the alternator to full-field. Our "fix" was to open all the regulators and put a dab of RTV on the bobbin to secure it to the relay frame. This MIGHT have been a good fix except that the procedure didn't call for allowing the RTV to fully set before the cover went back on. In a few months, we were getting a rash of undervoltage conditions on brand new regulators. Seems fumes from acetic acid in RTV was corroding the contacts of the voltage control relay causing the alternator to go to zero output. I think we trashed them and bought new ones (properly designed by Ford). They were so cheap that it just wasn't good economics to open them up AGAIN and clean the contacts. Learned about the acid in RTV the hard way. A year or two after I left Cessna, I knew they were interested in an effective ov control technique for that system. I designed, qualified and delivered prototypes to my old acquaintances in the Cessna Pawnee plant engineering department. Yes, it worked great . . . but "wasn't exactly what they were wanting." About 10 years later, I was working at Electro-Mech and got a request from Cessna to quote a built-to print OV controller. Seems their previous supplier (Hopkins in Emporia KS) didn't want to build it any more. I looked at the drawing and was somewhat surprised to see my design of 10 years earlier staring back at me. Deduced later that one of the engineers at Cessna was doing consulting for Hopkins at the time I introduced my proposal. He ultimately left Cessna and went to Hopkins full time. So, ten years later, I found myself building and supplying the design to Cessna anyhow . . . Here's a sketch of the circuit as best I can remember. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Cessna_OVModule.gif The values of the voltage divider may need some tweaking to get a 16.2 volt set-point to happen somewhere in middle of pot. Also, adjust value of C to get 50 mS delay on onset of step over voltage simulation to tripout. We used 14v as nominal and 20V as the ov step. I think 22uF will put you in the ballpark . . . whether this comes out to be 30 or 80 milliseconds is no big deal. You just need some delay to avoid nuisance trips. A resistors then were 1/2w, 5%. Zener was 5% and picked for relatively low tempco. You could substitute a more stable device like LM336-5.0 with some tweaking of voltage divider values. In any case, this should get you off to a good start for replacing that critter. Hopkins probably built 100,000 of those things before Electro-Mech took it over and built many thousands more. I'll invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and any other discussions germane to your studies of aircraft electrics and electronics. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Bench Test Power Supply
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Peterson Electromusical Products in Alsip, IL, sells Intelli-Power 40, 60 and 80 amp 13.8volt switching power supplies for $165, $215, and $270 respectively. They also have EXCELLENT quantity discounts. We often buy three 80 amp units at a time for $750. Three 40 amp units would be $450. These are heavy-duty units that run for many years. Regards, Troy Scott tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2004
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Essential Bus, Aux Battery, with Z-30
Howdy Bob, I'm working toward a system which is Z-11 + Z-30. For my question, looking at Z-30 is enough, I believe. I don't quite see the best way to get power to the essential bus if my main battery dies. Here is what I see as a scenario: o Flying along, all is fine. o Alternator dies. o I activate the essential bus feed switch. o I switch off the main and aux battery contactors. o Power flows from the main battery to the essential bus. o Main battery dies, or runs out of juice. At this point, the only way I can get power to the essential bus is to turn on the aux battery again, supplying power to everything. Of course, by this time I should have powered off all the unnecessary loads on the main bus, so it should not be a problem. However, this seems to lack the elegance of the rest of the system. Perhaps it is not really necessary to have an essential bus when you have two batteries? Thanks for further words of wisdom, or page numbers I should be reading! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten(at)quiknet.com>
Subject: Bench Test Power Supply Size
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Larry / Bob, I couldn't find the Samlex SEC-1223 on the Radio Shack website. However, Universal Radio (just outside Columbus, Ohio) is now offering that power supply for just under $90. See http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/3747.html Keith Hallsten From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bench Test Power Supply Size I found the post below in the archives from 2002. I've had the PS below since then. It has worked great and done everything I need to do while wiring and testing the plane. Postponing the battery purchase as long as possible is a good thing.. - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Radio Shack's website at http://www.radioshack.com now sells the Samlex SEC1223 for less that I used to buy it wholesale. Go to their website and enter 910-3916 as a search term. I think the description is in error. It's really a 13.8 volt, 23A switchmode power supply. I sold about two dozen of them from our website catalog a coupld of years ago and gave a few away at weekend seminars. 23A will run EVERYTHING in your airplane as long as you don't turn pitot heat on too . . . It's on sale right now for $89.00 . . . Snap 'em up guys, this is a good price for that much snort in a power supply. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Hello Ben, How far from the control panel are your strip lights? A measurement from the center of the strip light to the panel surface To the nearest 1/4" will do. Thanks, Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: <Benford2(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel Lighting Options > > In a message dated 1/18/2004 8:33:32 AM Mountain Standard Time, > n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com writes: > > > > I have the Aero Enhancements duel light strips on my Zenith 801. Very nice > and a pleasing to the eye color. My only regret is I should have left a longer > overhang to my top skin over the panel. The slant angle of the strips barely > light the lower gauges. This is my design error though. I did speak to those > guys at S&F last year and they had a source of same color leds to mount overhead > and spot the dead areas. I would buy their product again.. > > Ben Haas N801BH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terrence Gardner" <ttandt(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Grounding,LED Toggle Switches
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Bob, Thanks for the Jeff City seminar. I found it particularly useful. Perhaps we can get you to the Carolinas in the coming year. My first question is your opinion on running wing tip/ position, landing light, and taillight grounds to the fire wall mounted main ship ground. Is any advantage gained? My initial impression is no. I do intend to bring all other cockpit/panel grounds individually to the B&C Faston ground block mounted on the FW as described in the AEC. Secondly, are you familar with the NKK 2100 SeriesLED illuminated toggle switches. I was considering making all night operated switches these in order to minimize the amount of cockpit lighting required yet make them instantly identifiable. Thanks Again Terrence Gardner First steps of the electrical journey... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Benford2(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 18, 2004
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
In a message dated 1/18/2004 6:20:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, jjewell(at)telus.net writes: > > Hello Ben, > > How far from the control panel are your strip lights? > A measurement from the center of the strip light to the panel surface To the > nearest 1/4" will do. > > Thanks, > > Jim in Kelowna Strips are about an inch wide. The inner part is 3/8" away and the outside is 1 3/8". If I had one more inch or so to move it out I bet it would be much better. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand(at)crownequip.com>
Subject: Radio Antenna for CD player
Date: Jan 18, 2004
I have installed a automotive CD player in our Lancair ES. I would like to put in an AM/FM antenna, but do not want to compromise any other part of electrical system or antennas. What do I use for an antenna? Can I keep this antenna inside? The plane is all fiberglass and I don't want any antennas outside. Jeff Hildebrand Lancair ES C-GSPH http://lancair.northstartraffic.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Essential Bus, Aux Battery, with Z-30
> > >Howdy Bob, > >I'm working toward a system which is Z-11 + Z-30. For >my question, looking at Z-30 is enough, I believe. >I don't quite see the best way to get power to the >essential bus if my main battery dies. > >Here is what I see as a scenario: > >o Flying along, all is fine. >o Alternator dies. >o I activate the essential bus feed switch. >o I switch off the main and aux battery contactors. >o Power flows from the main battery to the essential bus. >o Main battery dies, or runs out of juice. > >At this point, the only way I can get power to the >essential bus is to turn on the aux battery again, >supplying power to everything. Of course, by this >time I should have powered off all the unnecessary >loads on the main bus, so it should not be a problem. >However, this seems to lack the elegance of the rest >of the system. > >Perhaps it is not really necessary to have an essential bus >when you have two batteries? First, what kind of airplane are you building? Does it have an electrically dependent engine? If so, does the engine have DUAL systems such that either system will run the engine? Do you plan a vacuum system? Do you plan to fly at night . . . or long periods of IMC? What equipment would you put on the ENDURANCE bus (we need to quit calling it an essential bus)? After you post answers to the above, lets see if we can provide some information that allows you to deduce the answers to questions you cited above. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2004
From: Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Radio Antenna for CD player
Greetings Jeff, Take a look at this one. I think it will do the job. Mike Salzman Fairfield, CA LNCE --- Jeff Hildebrand wrote: ........ > > What do I use for an antenna? Can I keep this antenna inside? The > plane is all fiberglass and I don't want any antennas outside. > > > Jeff Hildebrand ........ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: #6 Welding Cable
> >Bob, thanks for your comments on "a battery is your best filter" >They help give me a direction. > > > You're thoughts are running on the right track. Can you buy > > #6 welding cable? Hmmm . . . I guess I've seen small electric > > welders that could make good use of #6. The only thing I see > > on the spools at my local favorite shop is 4, 2 and 0 . . . > >I was planning on using all #4 Fat wires because you felt #6 would not be >available. I went to our local welding supply and just for the hell of it >asked if they had #6. The sales girl said, sure do, how many feet do you >want. So I went with the #6 for alternator feed as called for buy the >manufacturer and saved some size and weight. > >You are absolutely right about the flexibility of the welding cable. A >delight to work with. Good to hear. I'll ask what's available from my local supplier. I suspect they have smaller sizes too . . . they're probably not as popular and they don't keep them on reels out front. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Subject: Russian Mag Switch Hook up
From: Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Hi Bob, I am hooking up a mag switch for our M-14 engine. The switch is one that the Russian Yak uses. NO KEY, I like that. It is a four position selector. Off, #1 , #2 , 1&2 . I am looking for a schematic and have not acquired one yet. The switch is pretty straight forward. Inside it has #1, #2, terminals and then a third one marked with a square version of an inverted U. I have read your writings on mag hook ups. So I know that shielded wire will run from the mags to the switch. And I know that the shields get connected at the mag end to ground. Bob, the snip below from your writings: "Further, p-lead shields should be grounded to the airframe/engine only at the engine end. The shield is used to provide a ground for the "GRD" terminals at the switch but no other connection to the shields should be made at the instrument panel end." So let see if I have this straight. At the switch end do the two shields get twisted together and connect to the "GRD" terminal inside the switch and that's it? I think the inverted U terminal must be the "GRD" terminal. I will verify with the Yak guys. Thanks, Don B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Understanding the E-Buss
Hello Im wiring my RV following Bobs diagram Z-xx (Generic light aircraft electrical system (alternator w/built-in regulator). Question: The E-Buss is fed from the Battery buss with 16 gage wire & a switch. It is also fed via the diode with 16 gage wire. If all of the components listed on the E-Buss are on, isnt that going to draw quite a bit of power more than the 16 gage wire can handle?? In my case I have a booster pump for a fuel injected engine it looks like it might draw quite a bit of juice what should I do here this booster fuel pump is certainly an essential item and so should go on the E-buss. If you are going down you turn off the Master switch and then have NO power behind the firewall a good thing. With this Battery buss you end up with a small 16 gage hot wire coming back behind the firewall is this not a big deal since its a small wire and would short and fry quickly in a crash as opposed to a scenario where one had a 6 gage wire, which might cause quite an electical mess before it fried? Could someone please help me understand this. Thanks. --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Radio Antenna for CD player
Date: Jan 19, 2004
I have a short piece (about 15") of RG-58AU co-ax connected to the FM antenna in my Bonanza and it seems to work fine. Cliff Hanson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand(at)crownequip.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Antenna for CD player > > I have installed a automotive CD player in our Lancair ES. I would like > to put in an AM/FM antenna, but do not want to compromise any other part > of electrical system or antennas. > > > What do I use for an antenna? Can I keep this antenna inside? The > plane is all fiberglass and I don't want any antennas outside. > > > Jeff Hildebrand > > Lancair ES C-GSPH > > http://lancair.northstartraffic.ca > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: Essential Bus, Aux Battery, with Z-30
Hi Bob, Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I'm building a day/night VFR RV8 that will be running a car engine, so I will have electronic ignition and fuel pumps. I have not yet chosen the final engine package I will use, so I don't know if it will have two ignitions or not. No vacuum pump. The only items I have on my endurance bus are the ECM, fuel pumps, Navcom, and the transponder. I have not yet decided how essential a Dynon would be. I'm not planning on any Atlantic crossings, but I do fly over the Alps, and hope to visit my buddies up in the UK. Depending on the situation, I'll be happy if the ECM(s) and fuel pumps keep working. I will have a courtesy light hooked directly to the main and/or aux battery bus. I'm deducing as fast as I can, but I still don't see the best way to get juice from the aux battery to the endurance bus. Thanks, Mickey > First, what kind of airplane are you building? Does it > have an electrically dependent engine? If so, does the engine > have DUAL systems such that either system will run > the engine? Do you plan a vacuum system? Do you plan > to fly at night . . . or long periods of IMC? > What equipment would you put on the ENDURANCE bus > (we need to quit calling it an essential bus)? > > After you post answers to the above, lets see > if we can provide some information that allows > you to deduce the answers to questions you cited > above. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Subject: Experience with TruTrack and Navaid Devices Auto Pilots
From: royt.or(at)netzero.com
(Cross post on Zenith List and Aeroelectric list) I purchased a ($1300) Navaid Devices single axis autopilot in early 02 (http://navaid-devices.com/index.htm). When the Digitrak was introduced at Oshkosk in 02 with an introductory price of ~$1600 (now $1795), I decided I would return the Navaid Device AP and get the Digitrak (http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/). My Digitrak performs great. I did break the servo shear screws after I had flow my plane for about 60 hours. Trutrak had GREAT customer service. Before I understood why the AP no longer worked correctly, Trutrak said to ship the controller and the servo to them, AT THEIR COST, and they would repair and return the unit. When I realized the shear screws broke, I returned the servo, AT TRUTRAKS COST, and they exchanged the servo for a more powerful unit. The new servo was shipped the same day Trutrak received my original servo. The Navaid Device guarantee states The customer has 60 days in which to return the equipment for a full refund. In the case of an aircraft under construction, the clock starts whenever you start flying; we take your word on that date. So, when I started flying my plane, I contacted Navaid Devices to find out what needed to be done to return the unit per the guarantee. I shipped the unit back (at my cost) per directions, with instructions to apply the refund to my credit card. After calling to get confirmation that the unit was delivered, I was told all the returned AP was complete and my refund would appear shortly. Shortly took about 4 months, multiple phone calls, emails and faxes. Each time I talked to Richard, he told me something like he had not gotten around to processing the refund and would do it that day. Im very glad I have the Digitrak. The total cost of the Digitrak is higher than the cost of a Navaid Devices. In addition to the higher cost of the AP, you need to supply a GPS data stream to the Digitrak and the Digitrak does not include a turn coordinator. Trutrak is a company who continues to develop innovative auto pilots. In my experience, they have great customer support. Navaid Devices is a company who produces an existing product, but does not have designers on staff and may not understand all the intricacies of the design. My experience was poor response/suppport from Navaid Devices. Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 160 hrs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Denny" <dennymortensen(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Radio Antenna for CD player
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Hi Jeff you need to make a dipole with each side being 26.2 inches long. I highly recommend the book by Jim Weir from RST Engineering http://www.rst-engr.com It will explain the how's and whys of all of this and the proper placement. You can bye the book alone or the book and the kit of parts all extremely reasonable. Good luck Denny -----Original Message----- Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Antenna for CD player I have installed a automotive CD player in our Lancair ES. I would like to put in an AM/FM antenna, but do not want to compromise any other part of electrical system or antennas. What do I use for an antenna? Can I keep this antenna inside? The plane is all fiberglass and I don't want any antennas outside. Jeff Hildebrand Lancair ES C-GSPH http://lancair.northstartraffic.ca _ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net>
Subject: Diode polarity?
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Hi Bob, I bought two Radio Shack diodes (V7D N5400) to jumper the coil on the two relays you recommended for the dual E.I.'s that are located in the back of the RV3 with the dual batteries. Your book designates the polarity of a diode with a black stripe at one end. However, the diodes I bought are 3/4 black with one end (about 1/4 of the diode length) silver? Thanks for your assistance, Rick Fogerson Boise, ID ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam(at)matronics.com>)
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
(by way of Matt Dralle ) John Wiegenstein wrote: > >I've got 3 of the Van's eyeball lights but am waffling over whether to go >with those (either on the cockpit sides, or more likely recessed at >intervals in a foam mounting block run along the underside of the glare >shield skin) or something like the strip lighting kit from Aero Enhancements >(www.aeroenhancements.com), which looks neat and provides an easy mounting >setup on the underside of the glare shield skin, but kind of spendy. Any >recent experience by any listers with either option? I've got a tip-up 6 >with a few internally lit instruments, but the flight instruments are >unlighted. Any other options that people are using with good results? >John Wiegenstein >Hansville, WA >RV-6 N727JW (reserved) I just retrofited all of my flight instruments with the Nulite units (available from Aircraft Spruce for about $38 each). End result is that the instruments appear as if they have internal lighting built in. I coupled it to a dimmer system from B&C http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218#dim50-14 I like the end result a lot. http://www.directron.com/bluelightstrip.html I bought some, but have not installed it yet due to the frigid cold weather up here in the NE. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam(at)matronics.com>)
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
(by way of Matt Dralle ) John Wiegenstein wrote: > >I've got 3 of the Van's eyeball lights but am waffling over whether to go >with those (either on the cockpit sides, or more likely recessed at >intervals in a foam mounting block run along the underside of the glare >shield skin) or something like the strip lighting kit from Aero Enhancements >(www.aeroenhancements.com), which looks neat and provides an easy mounting >setup on the underside of the glare shield skin, but kind of spendy. Any >recent experience by any listers with either option? I've got a tip-up 6 >with a few internally lit instruments, but the flight instruments are >unlighted. Any other options that people are using with good results? >John Wiegenstein >Hansville, WA >RV-6 N727JW (reserved) I just retrofited all of my flight instruments with the Nulite units (available from Aircraft Spruce for about $38 each). End result is that the instruments appear as if they have internal lighting built in. I coupled it to a dimmer system from B&C http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218#dim50-14 I like the end result a lot. For glareshield strip lighting, try these at $10: http://www.directron.com/bluelightstrip.html I bought some, but have not installed yet due to the frigid cold weather up here in the NE. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Diode polarity?
Date: Jan 19, 2004
It doesn't matter the stripe, be it white or black denotes the cathode end. Wire according to Bob's drawing regardless of the color of the stripe on your particular diode. Vince >From: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Diode polarity? >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:17:33 -0700 > > > >Hi Bob, >I bought two Radio Shack diodes (V7D N5400) to jumper the coil on the two >relays you recommended for the dual E.I.'s that are located in the back of >the RV3 with the dual batteries. Your book designates the polarity of a >diode with a black stripe at one end. However, the diodes I bought are 3/4 >black with one end (about 1/4 of the diode length) silver? > >Thanks for your assistance, >Rick Fogerson >Boise, ID > > Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Jan 19, 2004
This is weird. I sent this out on Sunday (yesterday) early afternoon, and it is just showing up now... -Dj On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 14:23, Dj Merrill wrote: > I just retrofited all of my flight instruments with the > Nulite units (available from Aircraft Spruce for about $38 each). > End result is that the instruments appear as if they have > internal lighting built in. I coupled it to a > dimmer system from B&C > http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218#dim50-14 > I like the end result a lot. > > For glareshield strip lighting, try these at $10: > http://www.directron.com/bluelightstrip.html > I bought some, but have not installed yet due to the > frigid cold weather up here in the NE. > > -Dj > -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <beecho(at)beecho.org>
Subject: FW: Battery maintainers
Date: Jan 19, 2004
-----Original Message----- From: beecho(at)beecho.org [mailto:beecho(at)beecho.org] Subject: Battery maintainers Does anyone have experience with battery maintainers that one can leave installed on a sealed battery without risk of damaging it? Aircraft Spruce shows three different ones. Batteryminder, Battery Tender, and Electronic power Systems. Thanks Tom Friedland ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Subject: Re: FW: Battery maintainers
Tom, I have used the Battery Tender for many years and it has worked very well for me. I have used them on motorcycles, airplanes, and cars. I highly recommend this charger. It is completely automatic. You just plug it in and you are done. It does all the work for you. I don't have any experience with the others therefore I just thought I would give my opinion on the one I do. Michael Valentine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Battery maintainers
Hi Tom, I've been using a Battery Tender Plus on my motorcycle batfteries. Both traditional water/acid based and the Panasonic "Sealed Lead-Acid" w/o any problems. Been using for the Battery Tender for several years and have left it on for months at a time with great success. Regards, /\/elson RV-7A - Emp Austin, TX On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 beecho(at)beecho.org wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: beecho(at)beecho.org [mailto:beecho(at)beecho.org] > To: AeroElectric Forum > Subject: Battery maintainers > > > Does anyone have experience with battery maintainers that one can leave > installed on a sealed battery without risk of damaging it? Aircraft > Spruce shows three different ones. Batteryminder, Battery Tender, and > Electronic power Systems. > > Thanks > > Tom Friedland ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
At 10:41 AM 1/18/2004, you wrote: >.....My only regret is I should have left a longer >overhang to my top skin over the panel. Ben....how much "overhang" did you leave? I'm thinking of using the same strip lighting feature. Thanks Neil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dean" <dvanwinkle(at)royell.net>
Subject: aeroelectric seminar at Jefferson City
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Bob Belated thank you for the excellent seminar last weekend. You provided the extra knowledge and instilled the confidence I needed to start wiring my RV-9A. With my electrically dependent engine, I am sure that I will have more questions as time goes on. We discussed use of bonding brushes at the seminar and just this week, The Yard Catalog # 61 arrived in the mail and confirmed my recollection that they were my source. They have the brushes with 3/32, 1/8, 5/32, and 3/16 pilots at $1.50 each or a set of four for $3.95. They are new stock, not used , see page 35. Best Regards Alden Van Winkle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Part number transposition in LVWABMM schematic
Bob, While keying in a Digikey order for parts for the Low Voltage Warning and Aux Battery Management Module, I discovered that the 1.0uF 16V tantalum cap was mislabeled on the schematic diagram (page 2 of http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf) as Digikey Part Number P2015, but should actually be P2105. The part number as currently listed is the wrong value and the wrong voltage. Regards, Dave Morris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2004
From: Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Radio Antenna for CD player
Bob and all, Sorry for not including it. Thought you could read my mind, ..er something. I feel like a dutz. Here it is: http://www.julianos.com/in-car_antenna.html Mike Salzman Fairfield, CA LNCE --- BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: >..... > Good Evening Mike, > > Is there a link here that I missed? ....... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Subject: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
pulsar-builders(at)caseyk.org 1/19/2004 Hello Fellow Builders, Advisory Circular 20-27F, CERTIFICATION AND OPERATION OF AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT is the latest version of this AC. Anyone thinking of building an aircraft, building an aircraft, registering an aircraft, or having an aircraft inspected should have this AC. I have downloaded this AC from the FAA web site and have it in my computer in pdf format. Anyone desiring a copy may email me direct and I will respond with an email with the pdf file attached. You can then down load the file and, with Adobe reader software, read or print the file or selected portions of it. The Adobe reader software may be downloaded free from the Adobe web site if you don't already have a copy in your computer. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Subject: Panel Lighting Options
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "John Wiegenstein" <<.......skip.......... Any other options that people are using with good results? John Wiegenstein >> 1/19/2004 Hello John, I went with internally lighted instruments. Very nice lighting, very expensive, and not easy to change bulbs. If I had it to do over again I'd take a very close look at Nulites. See <> 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TSaccio(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 19, 2004
Subject: Re: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
Please send me a copy of the Advisory Circular. Thanks, Tom Saccio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2004
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote: > I have downloaded this AC from the FAA web site and have it in my computer in > pdf format. Anyone desiring a copy may email me direct and I will respond Hi, Any chance you might be able to post the FAA web site link where you downloaded this? Thanks! -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Every AC you ever wanted. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCirc ular.nsf Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote: > I have downloaded this AC from the FAA web site and have it in my computer in > pdf format. Anyone desiring a copy may email me direct and I will respond Hi, Any chance you might be able to post the FAA web site link where you downloaded this? Thanks! -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terrence Gardner" <ttandt(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Bench Test Power Supplies
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Check out Kjielectonics.com. They have an Astron VS-12M for about $90. This is a variable voltage, 12 amp supply, with built in meters. Good for testing low voltage warning circuits etc. 12 amps seemed large enough to test RV circuits(comments).They also had numerous other models/sizes/mfgs both variable and 13.8vdc. Terry Gardner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Benford2(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
In a message dated 1/19/2004 6:02:14 PM Mountain Standard Time, harvey4(at)earthlink.net writes: > > Ben....how much "overhang" did you leave? I'm thinking of using the same > strip lighting feature. > Thanks > Neil > > The 801 came with a 2 3/4" overhang. I did cut out a 3/4'" pice of mahogany to act as a deflector to keep the strips from shining in my eyes. Tha left 2" and the lights use up most of that leftover space. Another inch or so would have done it and the more ya have the better the slant angle of the lights. I am sure there is a point where one can make it a guillotine during a poor landing.. Ha ha . E mail me directly and I will send ya a pic or two of my panel and light set up. Ben Haas N801BH. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
Date: Jan 20, 2004
listed on http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/rules/acs.asp but it didn't come up. FAA link http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular .nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: <TSaccio(at)aol.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf > > Please send me a copy of the Advisory Circular. > > Thanks, > > Tom Saccio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley(at)qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Down load directly... http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular .nsf/0/0ca2845e2aafffbb86256dbf00640cb2/$FILE/AC20-27F.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dj Merrill" <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf > > On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 BAKEROCB(at)aol.com wrote: > > > I have downloaded this AC from the FAA web site and have it in my computer in > > pdf format. Anyone desiring a copy may email me direct and I will respond > > Hi, > Any chance you might be able to post the FAA web site link > where you downloaded this? > > Thanks! > > -Dj > > -- > Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering > ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall > deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 > > "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, > it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2004
From: Rick Girard <fly.ez(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
OC, Could you please send me a copy of Advisory Circular 20-27F, CERTIFICATION AND OPERATION OF AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT. Thanks, Rick Girard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2004
From: Rick Girard <fly.ez(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: FAA AC 20-27F.pdf
OC, And of course, because I read the mail in the order it came in, I found the link for getting this directly right after I wrote this request. Thanks to all who took the time to post this info and link. Rick Girard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2004
From: "Brian DalPorto" <dalporto.brian(at)ssd.loral.com>
"engines-list(at)matronics.com"
Subject: Alternator Replacement
I have an O-290 with a GM alternator that has been modified to match the existing case mounted bracket. the alternator is going bad, the bearings make noise and I can here a whine in my head sets. The modification on the existing alternator was to cut away half of the wide mounting boss on the alternator and insert a spacer on the back side to move the alternator forward to line up the pulleys. Would like to replace this alternator with an automotive type Nippondenso and use the brackets I have. So my questions are; 1. Does anybody know if there is a Nippondenso alternator that will fit the lycoming case mounted bracket? If so what is the part number? 2. Does anybody know of someone who makes case mounted brackets like the one that ASAS sells for the boss mount? 3. Counting on having to make my own bracket, what alternator would be recomended? Brian Marquart MA-5 Charger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rino Lacombe" <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: Alternator Replacement
Date: Jan 20, 2004
> I have an O-290 with a GM alternator that has been modified to match the > existing case mounted bracket. the alternator is going bad, the bearings > make noise and I can here a whine in my head sets. The modification on > the existing alternator was to cut away half of the wide mounting boss > on the alternator and insert a spacer on the back side to move the > alternator forward to line up the pulleys. Would like to replace this > alternator with an automotive type Nippondenso and use the brackets I > have. So my questions are; > > 1. Does anybody know if there is a Nippondenso alternator that will fit > the lycoming case mounted bracket? If so what is the part number? > > 2. Does anybody know of someone who makes case mounted brackets like the > one that ASAS sells for the boss mount? > > 3. Counting on having to make my own bracket, what alternator would be > recomended? > > Brian > Marquart MA-5 Charger > Remove the alternator, take it to the alternator service shop. They will change all the defective parts and make it run like new. Tell them you want the best bearings and best whatever you want. Some will balance the rotating parts if you ask for it. You will not have to change brakets and/or alternator frame and it will run like new Rino ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2004
From: Charles Brame <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Radio antenna for CD player
RAZZMATAZZ, an award winning RV-6A out of Tampa (can't remember the owner's name) has a rubber ducky antenna mounted at the bottom right on the engine side of the firewall for a AM/FM/CD player. He used a through bulkhead B&C connector to mount the antenna. It is simple, cheap, and invisible and he reports it has outstanding reception despite its horizontal orientation. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio > -----Original Message----- > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Antenna for CD player > > > I have installed a automotive CD player in our Lancair ES. I would like > to put in an AM/FM antenna, but do not want to compromise any other part > of electrical system or antennas. > > > What do I use for an antenna? Can I keep this antenna inside? The > plane is all fiberglass and I don't want any antennas outside. > > > Jeff Hildebrand > > Lancair ES C-GSPH > > http://lancair.northstartraffic.ca > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2004
From: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Radio antenna for CD player
That's easy to believe. Consider that you can hear an 8 watt transmitter in another aircraft that's over 100 miles away, and the effective radiated power of most broadcast stations is measured in tens of thousands of watts. Charlie Charles Brame wrote: > >RAZZMATAZZ, an award winning RV-6A out of Tampa (can't remember the >owner's name) has a rubber ducky antenna mounted at the bottom right on >the engine side of the firewall for a AM/FM/CD player. He used a >through bulkhead B&C connector to mount the antenna. It is simple, >cheap, and invisible and he reports it has outstanding reception despite >its horizontal orientation. > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB >San Antonio > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Antenna for CD player >> >> >>I have installed a automotive CD player in our Lancair ES. I would like >>to put in an AM/FM antenna, but do not want to compromise any other part >>of electrical system or antennas. >> >> >>What do I use for an antenna? Can I keep this antenna inside? The >>plane is all fiberglass and I don't want any antennas outside. >> >> >>Jeff Hildebrand >> >>Lancair ES C-GSPH >> >>http://lancair.northstartraffic.ca >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N27160(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Subject: VOR/LOC/GS indicator for SL-30
Im looking for the most cost effective alternative for an indicator for a SL30 Nav Com. I dont anticipate any need to adapt the indicator to a GPS later on down the road. Tks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: Molex Pins
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Bob, I have a Narco AT-150 transponder that I need to re-wire. I know that I need Molex 1917-T pins so I searched the AeroElectric archives. There it was, back in July of 2003 you posted a link for the pins and plug. Problem solved......except the link no longer works :<( Do you have an updated source for these pins? I did a hasty Google search and came up empty handed. Any help would be greatly appreciated sir. Jeff p.s. - here are the old links http://216.55.140.222/Mfgr_Data/Molex/Molex_5559b.pdf http://216.55.140.222/Mfgr_Data/Molex/Molex_5558_Pins.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Replacement
Date: Jan 20, 2004
Hi Brian, Another thing to consider, If you want higher amperage output from that alternator, they might / should be able to change out the winding etc. to meet your needs. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rino Lacombe" <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Replacement > > > I have an O-290 with a GM alternator that has been modified to match the > > existing case mounted bracket. the alternator is going bad, the bearings > > make noise and I can here a whine in my head sets. The modification on > > the existing alternator was to cut away half of the wide mounting boss > > on the alternator and insert a spacer on the back side to move the > > alternator forward to line up the pulleys. Would like to replace this > > alternator with an automotive type Nippondenso and use the brackets I > > have. So my questions are; > > > > 1. Does anybody know if there is a Nippondenso alternator that will fit > > the lycoming case mounted bracket? If so what is the part number? > > > > 2. Does anybody know of someone who makes case mounted brackets like the > > one that ASAS sells for the boss mount? > > > > 3. Counting on having to make my own bracket, what alternator would be > > recomended? > > > > Brian > > Marquart MA-5 Charger > > > Remove the alternator, take it to the alternator service shop. > They will change all the defective parts and make it run like new. > Tell them you want the best bearings and best whatever you want. > Some will balance the rotating parts if you ask for it. > > You will not have to change brakets and/or alternator frame and it will run > like new > > Rino > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Molex Pins
> > >Bob, > >I have a Narco AT-150 transponder that I need to re-wire. I know that I >need Molex 1917-T pins so I searched the AeroElectric archives. There it >was, back in July of 2003 you posted a link for the pins and plug. Problem >solved......except the link no longer works :<( > >Do you have an updated source for these pins? I did a hasty Google search >and came up empty handed. Any help would be greatly appreciated sir. > >Jeff > >p.s. - here are the old links That was the address of our old server . . . got a new one at: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connector You can buy bag of 15 of these at: http://www.action-electronics.com/molex.htm Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Understanding the E-Buss
Bob: Im wiring my RV following Bobs diagram Z-xx (Generic light aircraft electrical system (alternator w/built-in regulator). Question: The E-Buss is fed from the Battery buss with 16 gage wire & a switch. It is also fed via the diode with 16 gage wire. If all of the components listed on the E-Buss are on, isnt that going to draw quite a bit of power more than the 16 gage wire can handle?? In my case I have a booster pump for a fuel injected engine it looks like it might draw quite a bit of juice what should I do here this booster fuel pump is certainly an essential item and so should go on the E-buss. If you are going down you turn off the Master switch and then have NO power behind the firewall a good thing. With this Battery buss you end up with a small 16 gage hot wire coming back behind the firewall is this not a big deal since its a small wire and would short and fry quickly in a crash as opposed to a scenario where one had a 6 gage wire, which might cause quite an electical mess before it fried? Could someone please help me understand this. Thanks. --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
Subject: Re: Understanding the E-Buss
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Hi Julia (I think that's your name - I don't see a signature), I saw this before, and no responses, so I decided to take a stab at it... Comments below. > > Bob: > > Im wiring my RV following Bobs diagram Z-xx (Generic light aircraft > electrical system (alternator w/built-in regulator). > > Question: The E-Buss is fed from the Battery buss with 16 gage wire & a > switch. It is also fed via the diode with 16 gage wire. If all of the > components listed on the E-Buss are on, isnt that going to draw quite a > bit of power more than the 16 gage wire can handle?? In my case I You will need to do a power budget for each bus on the airplane to determine wire size. If it turns out that you need to support more continuous current load than a 16g wire will carry, then by all means you will need to upsize this feed. Keep in mind that a short 16g feed (where thermal concerns rule) should be good for upwards of 10A continuous. The longer the feed, the more you need to be concerned about overall voltage drop (the R term in V=IR grows), and so a larger wire would be appropriate. Bob has a good page on picking wire size at the following link. I found it by looking near the bottom of the rest of the downloadable materials on his page. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wiresize.pdf have > a booster pump for a fuel injected engine it looks like it might draw > quite a bit of juice what should I do here this booster fuel pump is "looks like it might draw quite a bit of juice" is a pretty subjective rating. When choosing components for your electrical system, you need to get real data regarding the actual current demand of the installed component. You can sometimes get this from the manufacturer. However, there is no substitute for taking actual measurements with an ammeter on the bench. Often manufactures list peak current instead of typical load. Its best to take data on the device for both the turn on transient state, and the continuous demand of the device. As Bob has said, an analog meter is best. Size the wire for the expected continuous load. When measuring the current demand of a pump, there is good reason to take the data when the pump is actually moving liquid. > certainly an essential item and so should go on the E-buss. > > If you are going down you turn off the Master switch and then have NO > power behind the firewall a good thing. With this Battery buss you end > up with a small 16 gage hot wire coming back behind the firewall is > this not a big deal since its a small wire and would short and fry > quickly in a crash as opposed to a scenario where one had a 6 gage > wire, which might cause quite an electical mess before it fried? Could > someone please help me understand this. The battery bus should be located very close to the battery with as short a feed as possible. If the battery is on the hot side of the firewall, it probably makes the most sense to locate the battery bus on the hot side too. This makes it so that it doesn't need special protection. If you crash, the worst that can happen electricallyis that the short feed between the battery and the battery bus gets faulted, though its unlikly, if it was installed with care in the first place. If it does fault, the risk of it causing a fire is minimal. Seems like you could put a fusible link on it, if it makes you more comfortable. > > Thanks. > > Regards, Matt- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Roll-Your-Own OVP
Bob, A fellow builder and myself have built an OVP unit based on the schematic on the B&C site (Dwg. Rev. 4/16/2). So far all the smoke is still in the IC's. It has be a fun and educational experience. However, when attempting to calibrate the assembled unit, we can't get it to trip as it should. Could you possibly shed some light on where we may have gone wrong? We are electronic novices, so it was a little unclear as to which leads were which on the transistors. If you could verify the correct leads on the attached sketch it would be helpful. Also, there are two different schematics on the B&C site. Would the one labeled AEC9003-14 / AEC9003-28 be a better choice as it has half as many parts. Mark S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: High Current Automotive Relays
Bob and others, Would the Tyco/P&B VF7 relay be suitable for an alternator disconnect relay? It's rated for 70 amps continuous and hundreds of amps for short periods. The only obvious issue I can see is the connection method. The tab style terminals aren't real handy for the larger gauge wires, although I have some 0.375 "Fast-on's" that handle up to 2 gauge (I think) that would be interesting to try and put a "B" crimp on! I suppose you could also drill the tab and bolt a ring terminal to it. Any comments? Mike http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/Automotive_Relays/VF7_DS.pdf __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: Wallace Enga <wenga(at)svtv.com>
Subject: Re: High Current Automotive Relays
Mike, Take a look at the Kilovac EV200 AAANA Continuous Duty Contractor, also. I am using it for my alternator O.V. disconnect --- has only a 0.11amp holding current at 14V. Specs at: http://www.nucletron.de/nuvte/pdf/EV200.pdf Onlinecomponents sells them for about $85 at: http://www.onlinecomponents.com/default.htm Wally > >Bob and others, >Would the Tyco/P&B VF7 relay be suitable for an >alternator disconnect relay? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Understanding the E-Buss
Date: Jan 21, 2004
Actually, a single copper wire (Tefzel - 150 C rating) in free air at 60 C ambient temperature is good for about 28 amps continuous. You then derate that if it is routed in a bundle and for altitude. 10 wires in a bundle at 80% load factor would bring the current rating down to 12.5 amps at 20,000 ft. (the wired is able to dissipate less heat at altitude than down low). All of this is spelled out in the newer AC43.13-1B. Cliff A&P/IA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Understanding the E-Buss > > > Hi Julia (I think that's your name - I don't see a signature), > > I saw this before, and no responses, so I decided to take a stab > at it... Comments below. > > > > > Bob: > > > > Im wiring my RV following Bobs diagram Z-xx (Generic light aircraft > > electrical system (alternator w/built-in regulator). > > > > Question: The E-Buss is fed from the Battery buss with 16 gage wire & a > > switch. It is also fed via the diode with 16 gage wire. If all of the > > components listed on the E-Buss are on, isnt that going to draw quite a > > bit of power more than the 16 gage wire can handle?? In my case I > > You will need to do a power budget for each bus on the airplane to > determine wire size. If it turns out that you need to support more > continuous current load than a 16g wire will carry, then by all means > you will need to upsize this feed. Keep in mind that a short 16g feed > (where thermal concerns rule) should be good for upwards of 10A > continuous. The longer the feed, the more you need to be concerned > about overall voltage drop (the R term in V=IR grows), and so a larger > wire would be appropriate. Bob has a good page on picking wire size at > the following link. I found it by looking near the bottom of the rest of > the downloadable materials on his page. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/wiresize.pdf > > have > > a booster pump for a fuel injected engine it looks like it might draw > > quite a bit of juice what should I do here this booster fuel pump is > > > "looks like it might draw quite a bit of juice" is a pretty subjective > rating. When choosing components for your electrical system, you need > to get real data regarding the actual current demand of the installed > component. You can sometimes get this from the manufacturer. > However, there is no substitute for taking actual measurements with > an ammeter on the bench. Often manufactures list peak current instead of > typical load. Its best to take data on the device for both the turn on > transient state, and the continuous demand of the device. As Bob has > said, an analog meter is best. Size the wire for the expected continuous > load. > > When measuring the current demand of a pump, there is good reason > to take the data when the pump is actually moving liquid. > > > certainly an essential item and so should go on the E-buss. > > > > If you are going down you turn off the Master switch and then have NO > > power behind the firewall a good thing. With this Battery buss you end > > up with a small 16 gage hot wire coming back behind the firewall is > > this not a big deal since its a small wire and would short and fry > > quickly in a crash as opposed to a scenario where one had a 6 gage > > wire, which might cause quite an electical mess before it fried? Could > > someone please help me understand this. > > The battery bus should be located very close to the battery with as > short a feed as possible. If the battery is on the hot side of the > firewall, it probably makes the most sense to locate the battery bus > on the hot side too. This makes it so that it doesn't need special > protection. > > If you crash, the worst that can happen electricallyis that the short feed > between the battery and the battery bus gets faulted, though its unlikly, > if it was installed with care in the first place. If it does fault, the > risk of it causing a fire is minimal. Seems like you could put a fusible > link on it, if it makes you more comfortable. > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Regards, > > Matt- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
Subject: Re: Understanding the E-Buss
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Perfect.... Thanks! I had just looked at the chart, picked the most conservative corner and said that 16g was at least as good as that. Regards, Matt- > > Actually, a single copper wire (Tefzel - 150 C rating) in free air at 60 > C ambient temperature is good for about 28 amps continuous. You then > derate that if it is routed in a bundle and for altitude. 10 wires in a > bundle at 80% load factor would bring the current rating down to 12.5 > amps at 20,000 ft. (the wired is able to dissipate less heat at altitude > than down low). > > All of this is spelled out in the newer AC43.13-1B. > > Cliff A&P/IA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terrence Gardner" <ttandt(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: UPS Apollo SL Stack
Date: Jan 21, 2004
I am installing an SL15M, SL30, and SL70 in my RV9. According to the installation instructions no fewer than 4 different D-Sub crimpers are required. Could someone with experience in this installation enlighten me as to what is actually required in the crimping arena to properly install this equipment. Thanks in advance. Terry Gardner RV9A -Avionics/Electrical/Finishing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: UPS Apollo SL Stack
Date: Jan 21, 2004
I've installed the SL30 and SL70 in my RV-8. They were "prewired" from when I bought them from Stark, but there was *plenty* of wiring left to do. I only used one crimper, the one from Bob's/B&C's website, the "D-Sub Machined Pins Crimp Tool", which I highly recommend. I don't remember seeing a need for any other type of crimper. - Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Terrence Gardner [mailto:ttandt(at)mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:22 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: UPS Apollo SL Stack > > > --> > > I am installing an SL15M, SL30, and SL70 in my RV9. According > to the installation instructions no fewer than 4 different > D-Sub crimpers are required. Could someone with experience in > this installation enlighten me as to what is actually > required in the crimping arena to properly install this > equipment. Thanks in advance. > > > Terry Gardner > RV9A -Avionics/Electrical/Finishing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: "hausding, sid" <sidh(at)charter.net>
Subject: Wondering if..........
Anybody have a source for buying a few (apprx 10) Eaton-Heinemann KD-1 push type circuit breakers? They are small, tubular type, panel mounted with 1/2" hole, and come in sizes 0.5 through 15 amps........ I'm considering using these in place of fuseholders on my panel for most applications. I can find dealers and distributors, but they all want large money orders in the trillions. Thanks for any leads.......... Sid sidh(at)charter.net Alpena, Mi (APN) N204S ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 21, 2004
Subject: Re: Wondering if..........
In a message dated 1/21/04 10:30:23 PM Central Standard Time, sidh(at)charter.net writes: Thanks for any leads.......... Good Evening Sid, Newark Electronics, Catalog 120. Page 938. They are available individually or in larger groups at lower prices. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: High Current Automotive Relays
> >Bob and others, >Would the Tyco/P&B VF7 relay be suitable for an >alternator disconnect relay? It's rated for 70 amps >continuous and hundreds of amps for short periods. >The only obvious issue I can see is the connection >method. The tab style terminals aren't real handy for >the larger gauge wires, although I have some 0.375 >"Fast-on's" that handle up to 2 gauge (I think) that >would be interesting to try and put a "B" crimp on! I >suppose you could also drill the tab and bolt a ring >terminal to it. > >Any comments? That critter is mechanically too flimsy to hang that size wire on. Further, I wouldn't run a fast-on at those current levels. The fast-ons are fine at the currents one would expect as continuous loads from the biggest accessory, i.e. pitot heat or something on the order of 15A. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2004
From: richard(at)riley.net
Subject: Re: Wondering if..........
> >Anybody have a source for buying a few (apprx 10) Eaton-Heinemann KD-1 push >type circuit breakers? I love dealing with these guys http://www.flamecorp.com/products.html. They've always been happy to sell to me in small quantities, for single airplanes. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "hollandm" <hollandm(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Current leak?
Date: Jan 21, 2004
When the battery master is off I can still measure about 0.5 to 0.7 volts after the battery master contactor. With the master on and the relay closed it measures full battery voltage so the contactor is mechanically OK. Is it normal for a contactor to "leak" a low voltage when open? There is a diode between the relay and the hot side. Could this be the source of the leak? My concern is that the contactor may be defective and a small voltage leak may result in a dead battery, if it can find a path to ground. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Nice Fuse Block
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer(at)genmar.com>
Dear Electron Disciple of : I found an excellent fuse block (Blue Sea Systems #5026), two of which I am using on my GlaStar project. View it at: http://www.bluesea.com It is designed for 12 circuits, including the grounding posts, with a clear, removable cover. Very well made, for the marine industry. This company is a great source of the kind of stuff we need to wire our birds. Mark Neubauer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: D Sub connectors WAS: UPS Apollo SL Stack
There are different ways to make up a D-sub connector. Solder cups - in this case the connector has little (very little!) cups into which you insert the wire and some solder. I've done hundreds and can tell you they are a pain in the butt. Solder pins - solder again but to pins you insert into empty connector. Crimp pins stamped - pins are stamped out of sheet metal and crimped with tool - seems each maker has his own expensive tool I have done lots of these but they are a pain too. Crimp pins machined - these are cool! Way too expensive from the guys who send you a whopper catalog every month or so but a real deal from Electric Bob. I just bought and used his kit for the Dynon. All these fit each other - that is, they are compatible in use. Use the machined crimp pins on everything. A few more pennies but much less frustration. > > >I am installing an SL15M, SL30, and SL70 in my RV9. According to the >installation instructions no fewer than 4 different D-Sub crimpers are >required. K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Apollo Stack wiring
From: irampil(at)notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Date: Jan 22, 2004
01/22/2004 09:40:20 AM, Serialize complete at 01/22/2004 09:40:20 AM When I wired my SL30, SL70, I recall only criming standard sub D machined roll pins which came supplied in the respective install kits. Nothing was prewired. I bought them at Gulf Coast but they were drop shipped straight to me. The coax connections all required soldering Ira N224XS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Understanding the E-Buss
> >Bob: > >Im wiring my RV following Bobs diagram Z-xx (Generic light aircraft >electrical system (alternator w/built-in regulator). > >Question: The E-Buss is fed from the Battery buss with 16 gage wire & a >switch. It is also fed via the diode with 16 gage wire. If all of the >components listed on the E-Buss are on, isnt that going to draw quite a >bit of power more than the 16 gage wire can handle?? In my case I have >a booster pump for a fuel injected engine it looks like it might draw >quite a bit of juice what should I do here this booster fuel pump is >certainly an essential item and so should go on the E-buss. Read chapter 17 again and keep in mind that what we've originally called the ESSENTIAL bus is more appropriately called the ENDURANCE bus. Stuff on this bus should be limited to the minimum power consumption nav and communications aids that make your continued flight to destination a comfortable reality. >If you are going down you turn off the Master switch and then have NO >power behind the firewall a good thing. With this Battery buss you end >up with a small 16 gage hot wire coming back behind the firewall is >this not a big deal since its a small wire and would short and fry >quickly in a crash as opposed to a scenario where one had a 6 gage wire, >which might cause quite an electical mess before it fried? Could someone >please help me understand this. The rule-of-thumb for always hot wires in aircraft is to protect them at 5A or less . . . this generally implies 22AWG as the largest wire. Since introduction of the E-bus a decade ago, the peak-load (endurance + transmit) have made a 5A circuit impractical . . . but given the speed with which fuses open compared to breakers, we've grown a slightly bigger thumb and decided we'll live with a 7A/20AWG feeder (or fatter wire IF the battery is behind the seat and the feeder is long . . . but 7A is still the biggest fuse for an always hot wire). Now, if you have an electrically dependent engine, I'd run engine support accessories from the battery bus. If any one accessory needs larger than a 7A FUSED or 5A BREAKERED feeder, then consider the addition of a relay to provide AT-THE-BUS disconnect capabilities not unlike that provided by a battery contactor. This is illustrated in http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/E-BusFatFeed.gif which shows at-the-bus control of fat feeder for the e-bus . . . but applies equally to ANY wire off the battery bus fused at more than 7A. If you have foul smells in the cockpit, being able to make everything COLD except engine support components is the goal. You ARE going to carry flashlights and hand-helds, right? Likelihood of ever NEEDING them in an OBAM aircraft is a small fraction that of a certified ship. The problems that plague cookie-cutter airplanes have or will be quickly designed out of the OBAM machine. This is how the Z-figures evolved. Equipment most useful for continued flight sans alternator and that needed to keep the propeller turning are separate issues and should not be lumped under the single heading of ESSENTIAL. Now, if you have an electrically dependent engine AND only one alternator AND it takes a lot of electrical snort to keep the engine running. You've got a combination of conditions that probably limits your sans alternator electrical endurance to less than fuel-aboard. You don't want to carry THAT big a battery that needs to be replaced every year and/or capacity checked two or three times a year . . . Sooooo the idea of seeking out the closest safe harbor if the alternator quits is probably your best modus operandi. But again, unlike cookie-cutter airplanes, YOU will have active notification of alternator failure AND a high order of confidence in your battery's ability to support the engine for longer than the FAA recommended 30 minutes. Again, the airplane you're considering has features and reliability our spam-can flying brethren can only dream about for getting PERMISSION to make a difference is rarely sought and grudgingly given. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Roll-Your-Own OVP
> > >Bob, >A fellow builder and myself have built an OVP unit based on the schematic >on the B&C site (Dwg. Rev. 4/16/2). So far all the smoke is still in the >IC's. It has be a fun and educational experience. However, when >attempting to calibrate the assembled unit, we can't get it to trip as it >should. Could you possibly shed some light on where we may have gone >wrong? We are electronic novices, so it was a little unclear as to which >leads were which on the transistors. If you could verify the correct leads >on the attached sketch it would be helpful. > >Also, there are two different schematics on the B&C site. Would the one >labeled AEC9003-14 / AEC9003-28 be a better choice as it has half as many >parts. See http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf and http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3906.pdf Getting the transistor leads tangled up is the most common error. Not sure why the simpler drawing is still on their site . . . I think that's the one based on a part that is no longer available. It probably represents what they build after having purchased a life-time supply of the discontinued part . . . but that's not an option readily available to folks at large. That's why the alternative configuration was offered a few years ago. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 11093 edgeworth
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by >jim edgeworth (jim(at)edgeworthj.fsnet.co.uk) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 >at 11:28:28 > >Wednesday, January 21, 2004 > >jim edgeworth > >, >Email: jim(at)edgeworthj.fsnet.co.uk >Comments/Questions: Alternator linear voltage regulator:- do you have a >circuit available? I'd like to build as much as I can of my RV6A, just to >be able to say that I built it, not just assembled a collection of bought >parts. No, in fact, I wouldn't build a linear regulator for a current project. The benefits are not a great as we originally perceived back when I was working on that chapter of the book. That will be revised in the future to suggest that switchers are fine. Consider the readily available and VERY inexpensive VR166 Ford regulator discussed in the book and illustrated in the wiring diagrams. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Panel Lighting Options
> >At 10:41 AM 1/18/2004, you wrote: > >.....My only regret is I should have left a longer > >overhang to my top skin over the panel. Leaving the skin overhang as in Vans design is a bad idea. It can slice off a big piece of your head in a crash. What I did was leave about 3/4 inch of heavy aluminum to support a firm rubber crash pad. I then made an overhang of very thin soft aluminum sheet. This is just taped on because I figure I will have to replace it every so often. Safer and LESS WEIGHT too! K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Nice Fuse Block
> > >Dear Electron Disciple of : > >I found an excellent fuse block (Blue Sea Systems #5026), two of which I >am using on my GlaStar project. View it at: > >http://www.bluesea.com > >It is designed for 12 circuits, including the grounding posts, with a >clear, removable cover. Very well made, for the marine industry. This >company is a great source of the kind of stuff we need to wire our birds. > >Mark Neubauer Good looking product . . . but it does use screws for attaching wires. I would prefer fast-ons . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
Subject: Re: Nice Fuse Block
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Mark, Out of curiousity, do you work for these guys? I wonder because this is the second time you posted something about this fuse block, unsolicited. No biggie, but wondering. So, what do you think about the reservations that Bob mentioned before about these (threaded fasteners, ground single point failure, too few ground connections)? Regards, Matt- N34RD > > > Dear Electron Disciple of : > > I found an excellent fuse block (Blue Sea Systems #5026), two of which I > am using on my GlaStar project. View it at: > > http://www.bluesea.com > > It is designed for 12 circuits, including the grounding posts, with a > clear, removable cover. Very well made, for the marine industry. This > company is a great source of the kind of stuff we need to wire our > birds. > > Mark Neubauer > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current leak?
> >When the battery master is off I can still measure about 0.5 to 0.7 volts >after the battery master contactor. With the master on and the relay >closed it measures full battery voltage so the contactor is mechanically OK. > >Is it normal for a contactor to "leak" a low voltage when open? There is >a diode between the relay and the hot side. Could this be the source of >the leak? > >My concern is that the contactor may be defective and a small voltage leak >may result in a dead battery, if it can find a path to ground. > > >Thanks If the source of voltage is the battery, then it will disappear with the contactor open AND the battery (+) or (-) leads disconnected. I suspect there is some device on your bus that has a capacitor across the line and is retaining a small charge after the contactor opens. Come back tomorrow morning and see if the .5 volts is still there. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Roll-Your-Own OVP
> > > > > > > >Bob, > >A fellow builder and myself have built an OVP unit based on the schematic > >on the B&C site (Dwg. Rev. 4/16/2). So far all the smoke is still in the > >IC's. It has be a fun and educational experience. However, when > >attempting to calibrate the assembled unit, we can't get it to trip as it > >should. Could you possibly shed some light on where we may have gone > >wrong? We are electronic novices, so it was a little unclear as to which > >leads were which on the transistors. If you could verify the correct leads > >on the attached sketch it would be helpful. > > > >Also, there are two different schematics on the B&C site. Would the one > >labeled AEC9003-14 / AEC9003-28 be a better choice as it has half as many > >parts. > > See http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf > and > http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3906.pdf > > Getting the transistor leads tangled up is the most common > error. Not sure why the simpler drawing is still on their > site . . . I think that's the one based on a part that > is no longer available. It probably represents what they > build after having purchased a life-time supply of the > discontinued part . . . but that's not an option readily > available to folks at large. That's why the alternative > configuration was offered a few years ago. > > Bob . . . Bob, OK, thanks for clearing up the schematic question. We've since looked over the wiring again and could not find anything that was installed backwards or wired incorrectly. So I'll check our test setup to be sure we have that done right and then re-test. Thanks for your assistance, Mark S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Wiegenstein" <n727jw(at)hellerwiegenstein.com>
Subject: KT-76A Pinout Clarification
Date: Jan 22, 2004
OK, the KT-76A has shown up in the extensive (expensive?) Honeywell box. I've downloaded Bob's pinout PDF for this unit, but want to make sure its wired up correctly. The connector that came with the unit does not have a "one way" tab to prevent a reversed assembly, but the pin numbers and letters on the connector are as shown in Bob's pinout, and the edge connector on the unit has a slot near one end, such that the numbers and letters seem to match. But before I accidentally let all the smoke out of the insides, has anyone done a recent install and can confirm this? Couple other questions: (1) What are the A1, A2, A4, B1, B2, B4, C1, C2, C4, and D4 circuits for? Encoder? (2) The "Ext Ident" and "Ext Stby" would appear to be for external/remote switching of these functions. But what is "DME Suppression"??? (3)Is there a preferred way to test the connections and function to be sure everything's wired up right? TIA for any advice. Man, I'm getting close . . . . John Wiegenstein Hansville, WA RV-6 N727JW (reserved) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Roll-Your-Own OVP
> > > > > Bob . . . >Bob, >OK, thanks for clearing up the schematic question. We've since looked over >the wiring again and could not find anything that was installed backwards >or wired incorrectly. So I'll check our test setup to be sure we have that >done right and then re-test. > >Thanks for your assistance, >Mark S. If push comes to shove, you can send me your assembly. I think I've chased the rats out of a half dozen or so of these critters so far. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "hollandm" <hollandm(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: current leak?
Date: Jan 22, 2004
Bob, I checked and with the battery disconnected I still see the residual voltage but to my knowledge, there are no capacitors in the line, at this time. I checked the bus voltage with the steering diode disconnected and it dropped to zero. So on this basis I have concluded that the diode, somehow was responsible. The voltage did progressively drop but was still easily measurable 24 hours after the master was opened. So whatever is charging the circuit maintains that small voltage for a sustained period. Very strange. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dean Psiropoulos" <deanpsir(at)easystreet.com>
Subject: Alternator exchange
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Lectric Bob: Given all the discussion about OV protection, I have always intended to install that kind of insurance on my airplane. I'm finally down to finishing and bought a firewall forward kit from Van's aircraft. It contains a rebuilt Nippon Denso alternator (60 amp) but unfortunately that unit is internally regulated. I think this is the same unit that B&C modifies and sells. My question is: if I send this unit over to B&C can they modify it for a reasonable fee? Or maybe I can exchange it and a few bucks for a B&C alternator that I can use with your OV protection. Or should I just use it as is because the probability of an OV failure is very small and therefore not worth the extra money need to modify the unit I already have? Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A canopy frame headaches ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: current leak?
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
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Subject: Blue-Sea #5026 Fuse Block
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer(at)genmar.com>
Matt, et.al.: No, I do not work for the company which manufactures the fuse block. In fact, I had not even heard of the company (Blue Sea Systems) until last October 30 when I was attending a boat builder's conference in Miami Beach. (Genmar, from my e-mail address, is a large builder of recreational and fishing boats and buys components such as this) I was in the process of designing my electrical system at the time, and seeing this fuse block was exactly what I was looking for. I believe the unit sold by B&C is not as well-made. (But I am using one of theirs for my battery buss since I needed a small, 6-circuit unit here). My reason for sending the message is simple: I merely want to share a good thing with fellow builders. Anything that makes an individual's homebuilt aircraft safer and better helps all of us. Regarding Bob's comments, here are my thoughts: Item 1: It seems to me that a screwed connection, with a ring-type crimped connector, is better electrically than a Fast-On tab. (Bob, I know you refute this in the Connection - and I'm a big fan of your design philosophy) The surface area of the contact (basically a small annular surface), which is under high pressure (i.e.. low contact resistance) from the screwhead's pressure, is better than the two lines of contact with a Fast-On. (You can argue that the "back" of the Fast-On connector also makes contact but this is relatively low pressure and subject to oxidation). Further, the screwed-post/ring-fastener attachment method lends itself better to multiple circuits feeding from one fuse. (don't worry, I'm only talking about low-amp stuff like panel lights, etc.) Next, using a drop of blue Lock-Tite on the threaded portion of the screw (NOT the area around the screw) will provide vibration "proof-ness" without electrical resistance. Finally, all electrical attachment points are chrome-plated which will prevent long-term resistance change due to oxidation. (If you want to see electrical problems raise their ugly head, try working these issues on a marine vessel - which is just about always at 100% relative humidity) Item 2: The unit has 12 ground posts, and it is a no-brainer that I could attach 2 or 3 grounds to one post. Besides, with my two fuse blocks on the aircraft, and a multiple ground-post strip on the firewall, I'm well covered on ground attach points. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: current leak?
> >Bob, I checked and with the battery disconnected I still see the residual >voltage but to my knowledge, there are no capacitors in the line, at this >time. I checked the bus voltage with the steering diode disconnected and >it dropped to zero. So on this basis I have concluded that the diode, >somehow was responsible. The voltage did progressively drop but was still >easily measurable 24 hours after the master was opened. Okay, I'm confused as to which diode we're talking about. In your message yesterday you said. "When the battery master is off I can still measure about 0.5 to 0.7 volts after the battery master contactor. With the master on and the relay closed it measures full battery voltage so the contactor is mechanically OK. Is it normal for a contactor to "leak" a low voltage when open? There is a diode between the relay and the hot side. Could this be the source of the leak? My concern is that the contactor may be defective and a small voltage leak may result in a dead battery, if it can find a path to ground." I'm trying to visualize the schematic. The diodes called out in the Z-figures either go across contactor coils, or provide steering for normal power to the e-bus or steering for a cross-feed contactor. None of these diodes provide a leak path from battery to the rest of the system when all the switches are open. >So whatever is charging the circuit maintains that small voltage for a >sustained period. Very strange. Okay, let's get a current measurement. With all your switches OFF, put your multimeter in the current mode and use it to short the residual voltage to ground. Whatever reading you get will be the magnitude of leak current. Also need a better image of where your subject diode is installed on the system. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 23, 2004
I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition lead to the wire from the bus. Does this sound okay? THanks. Randy F1 Rocket #95 http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Power supplies
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Cheers, I read with interest the thread on the title subject and an additional suggestion popped up. There are a number of accessories which require 3, 6 9 or other voltages as a supply. In particular the Whelen units 'go sour' if not utilized immediately on receipt. In fact the capacitor is a paste job, and if allowed to rest for any extended period, can only be resuscitated by applying a much lower voltage for say 15 minutes to bring it up to snuff, Otherwise strobe go doodoo. For these reasons it might be a good idea to acquire a p.s. which has a variable-voltage capability - a quality topflight units usually contain. Ferg Europa 914 mono ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Current Leak?
Date: Jan 23, 2004
>From: hollandm (hollandm(at)pacbell.net) >with the battery disconnected I still see the residual voltage.. >but to my knowledge, there are no capacitors in the line... >So whatever is charging the circuit maintains that small voltage for a sustained >period. Very strange. Very expected actually. There are ALWAYS capacitors holding voltages someplace. Even if you clipped them all out there would STILL be capacitances everywhere. Measuring voltages is rarely a good way of looking at electrical circuits. A disconnected capacitor just sitting around has a voltage on it. Just for fun I took a capacitor that had not seen electricity for 10 years out of my junk bin and measured it---135 mV (So THAT's where my electrons have been hiding!). Your shoes and your head are a Kilovolt or so different if you're standing up, and if a cloud passes over it changes tremendously. Leakage CURRENT is the thing to check. Voltage is like water pressure...as long as it stays in the pipe not much is happening. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Subject: Re: Seat Heater Question
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine. I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt). - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com F1Rocket(at)comcast.net said: > > I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 > Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the > relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an > aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. > I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition > lead to the wire from the bus. > > Does this sound okay? THanks. > > Randy > F1 Rocket #95 > http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Seat Heater Question
> >That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine. > >I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat >kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the >plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt). > >- >Larry Bowen >Larry(at)BowenAero.com >http://BowenAero.com > >F1Rocket(at)comcast.net said: > > > > I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 > > Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the > > relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an > > aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. > > I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition > > lead to the wire from the bus. > > > > Does this sound okay? THanks. It's interesting to compare mental images derived from words attempting to describe a schematic . . . both of these posts raise more questions than answers. Randy, how to you intend to control the heater? Switch on the panel? Does the heater have more than one heat setting (as implied from Larry's post)? Do you have a way to scan the wiring diagram for your heater and send it to me? I have some initial impressions of what might be a useful answer but I'd like to see the roadmap for electrons to be sure I'm doing a good thing. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 23, 2004
I am curious who's kit did you buy and from where How much etc... Thanks Jeff. That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine. I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt). - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 23, 2004
The wiring schematic that came with the kit doesn't depict much. The kit came with a complete wiring harness, although it is intended for an automobile. Each set of heat pads (bottom and top pad) connect via the harness to a relay. A switch to control off-low-high also connects to this relay via the harness. Both relays (front seat, rear seat) connect to another relay via the harness. From this relay, there are three wires. Power, Ground, and Ignition. From reading the instructions, it looks like the power wire is connected to the battery, and the ignition wire to the ignition switch so that the seats are only powered when the switch is on. Since I will connect the power to my bus, I don't need the ignition part of this circuit, but I assume I must apply power to this wire so the relay is on for the seats to work. P=Pads S=Switch R=Relay P S \ / R--- ---- Ground / \ / P \ / R------ Power P / \ \ / \ R--- ---- Ignition / \ P S Does this help? If not, I'll try and fax the instruction sheets and schematic to you this evening when I get home. Thanks. Randy > > It's interesting to compare mental images derived from > words attempting to describe a schematic . . . both of > these posts raise more questions than answers. > > Randy, how to you intend to control the heater? Switch > on the panel? Does the heater have more than one heat > setting (as implied from Larry's post)? Do you have > a way to scan the wiring diagram for your heater and > send it to me? > > I have some initial impressions of what might be a > useful answer but I'd like to see the roadmap for > electrons to be sure I'm doing a good thing. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Jeff, I've purchased these for my Velocity. http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/afcarseathea.html Brett Quoting "Jeffrey W. Skiba" : > > > I am curious who's kit did you buy and from where How much etc... > > Thanks > Jeff. > > That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine. > > I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat > kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the > plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt). > > - > Larry Bowen > Larry(at)BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > > > > > -- Visit us at www.velocityxl.com 44VF Velocity XL/FG I68 Cincinnati, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Randy, What was your source for the heater? I have been looking at 12 volt automotive blankets that I would have to modify. Thanks, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net [mailto:F1Rocket(at)comcast.net] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition lead to the wire from the bus. Does this sound okay? THanks. Randy F1 Rocket #95 http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Follow this link: http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/afcarseathea.html Randy > > > Randy, > > What was your source for the heater? I have been looking at 12 volt > automotive blankets that I would have to modify. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > From: F1Rocket(at)comcast.net [mailto:F1Rocket(at)comcast.net] > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question > > > > I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 > Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the > relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an > aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. > I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition > lead to the wire from the bus. > > Does this sound okay? THanks. > > Randy > F1 Rocket #95 > http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: frequent flyer <jdhcv(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Electric Seat Heaters
What a bunch of wusses! Of course, I am in Arizona. Jack __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Mine are made by Rosta. I think I gave $130 for each seat. I don't like the fact they have a 3x5" module that you have to mount somewhere. I think other systems do not have this, so I would look at them instead if I was shopping for them again. Better yet, check this post from the RV-List archives: http://checkoway.com/url/?s=74e1ac9f - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey W. Skiba [mailto:jskiba(at)icosa.net] > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 11:50 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question > > > --> > > I am curious who's kit did you buy and from where How much etc... > > Thanks > Jeff. > > That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine. > > I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with > my seat heat kit. I replaced the switch with a standard > toggle like the rest of the plane. It has two modes now, off > and high (for both back and butt). > > - > Larry Bowen > Larry(at)BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > > ============ > Matronics Forums. > ============ > ============ > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm > Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search > ============ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "hollandm" <hollandm(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Current leak, revisited
Date: Jan 23, 2004
Per Bob's direction I charged my system by turning on the master. With the master off the residual voltage was about 0.6volts. When I hooked the meter into the same side of the circuit to measure current I could not detect any measurable current at a sensitivity of 0.001 amps. I have no capacitors installed, anywhere, at this stage, no engine and just wiring switches and busses at the moment. The diode in the current path is the steering diode and is wired between the main and ebus, per Z13. I think Eric Jones is on the right track, but in the absence of any capacitors, how about this theory. Could the metal fuselage itself act as sort of a capacitor, if that possible? Whatever induces the voltage has a current is less than 1 milliamp and takes many hours to discharge. Just another learning experience. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Power supplies
> >Cheers, > I read with interest the thread on the title subject and an >additional suggestion popped up. > There are a number of accessories which require 3, 6 9 or other >voltages as a supply. In particular the Whelen units 'go sour' if not >utilized immediately on receipt. In fact the capacitor is a paste job, and >if allowed to rest for any extended period, can only be resuscitated by >applying a much lower voltage for say 15 minutes to bring it up to snuff, >Otherwise strobe go doodoo. Unless your strobe supply has been sitting on the shelf for years, that time honored slow crank-up procedure isn't really useful. It was most useful 30 years ago before electrolytic capacitor technology really came of age . . . > For these reasons it might be a good idea to acquire a p.s. which >has a variable-voltage capability - a quality topflight units usually >contain. Single voltage, switchmode power supplies are generally less expensive with respect to power output capability. Examples include items like this: http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/1781 Enough snort to emulate a small alternator for working the bugs out of your airplane. For bench test work, a variable voltage, variable current limit power supply is essential . . . but you pay some $ for the features. We have several power supplies of this genre' on the bench: http://www.multimeterwarehouse.com/hy3003dSingle.htm These are very useful for electronic testing/experimentation when you can use control of both voltage and current limits. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Seat Heater Question
Randy, I'd suggest that you wire the low power (trigger) ignition lead from the main buss. The intent is that you can't activate the circuit if the ignition (master relay in our case) is off. This is so you don't run down your battery accidently. Charlie Kuss > >I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition lead to the wire from the bus. > >Does this sound okay? THanks. > >Randy >F1 Rocket #95 >http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2004
From: JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Groton, CT
Bob - I have signed up to attend you Groton, CT session. I have ordered a firewall forward package which includes the electrical design. I am attending you course to learn more because there are several things in their design I just do not like. Is it appropriate to bring the drawings along to be able to ask questions? If not, just tell me, I do not want to infringe on the course or your time. - Johnathan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Groton, CT
> > >Bob - > >I have signed up to attend you Groton, CT session. I have ordered a >firewall forward package which includes the electrical design. I am >attending you course to learn more because there are several things in >their design I just do not like. Is it appropriate to bring the drawings >along to be able to ask questions? If not, just tell me, I do not want to >infringe on the course or your time. - Johnathan No problem. My time and experience is there for you. That's what you're paying for. See you in March. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Blue-Sea #5026 Fuse Block
> >My reason for sending the message is simple: I merely want to share a good >thing with fellow builders. Anything that makes an individual's homebuilt >aircraft safer and better helps all of us. > >Regarding Bob's comments, here are my thoughts: > >Item 1: > >It seems to me that a screwed connection, with a ring-type crimped >connector, is better electrically than a Fast-On tab. (Bob, I know you >refute this in the Connection - and I'm a big fan of your design >philosophy) The surface area of the contact (basically a small annular >surface), which is under high pressure (i.e.. low contact resistance) from >the screwhead's pressure, But what are the relative pressures? You use words like small, high, low, etc but what are the numbers and how do they relate to each other? Unless you put enough pressure on two pieces of metal to cause metal to change shape (i.e. exceeded the compression strength of the material) you don't achieve gas-tight metal to metal bonding. I've removed ring terminals from fat treaded studs where one can see imprinting of the fastening hardware on the surface of the ring terminal. It gets squashed by clamp-up forces. Not easy to do with hardware under 10-32 in size and certainly not achievable with 6-32 or 8-32 screws threaded into holes punched into sheet metal parts. The fast-on plows a groove in the tab . . . forces greater than the tab material can resist have bared fresh, sub-surface material. Further, as the joint ages, pressures do not materially change (unless you have funky fast-ons of poor material) so ANY motion tends to dig the terminal's magic-points-of-contact in deeper. Motion in a threaded fastener join tends to loosen the joint and allows ingress of moisture and oxygen . . . every time . . . unless one takes the extra step to glue it. Tread-locking improves longevity but hampers future maintenance efforts. > is better than the two lines of contact with a Fast-On. (You can argue > that the "back" of the Fast-On connector also makes contact but this is > relatively low pressure and subject to oxidation). if "better" means higher contact pressure over the lifetime of the joint, then the fast-on has it hands down. If you have some other definition of better, we need to know what it is and examine its physics. >Further, the screwed-post/ring-fastener attachment method lends itself >better to multiple circuits feeding from one fuse. Why is this a good deal? I thought the super low price and availably of fuse-holder slots versus acres-of-breakers offered us a way to have EVERY accessory enjoy its OWN independently protected source. >(don't worry, I'm only talking about low-amp stuff like panel lights, >etc.) Next, using a drop of blue Lock-Tite on the threaded portion of the >screw (NOT the area around the screw) will provide vibration "proof-ness" >without electrical resistance. Finally, all electrical attachment points >are chrome-plated which will prevent long-term resistance change due to >oxidation. But you'll never see a chrome plated terminal or connector product offered by AMP, Molex, Cannon, Ampehnol, etc. etc. Wonder why . . . . > (If you want to see electrical problems raise their ugly head, try > working these issues on a marine vessel - which is just about always at > 100% relative humidity) > >Item 2: >The unit has 12 ground posts, and it is a no-brainer that I could attach 2 >or 3 grounds to one post. Which induces single points of failure for multiple accessories and reduces probability of gas-tight connection between all current carrying devices. If multiple terminals are brought together in certified ships you'll see a technique like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/BigMash.jpg This picture was taken of a mini-bus in nose compartment of a biz-jet. Unpressurized. Open to atmospheric breezes. Rains inside on EVERY decent from altitude. Full range of temperature cycles. The fasteners that hold multiple terminals together are 10-32 steel studs with all-metal locknuts on them. They're typically driven with air-motors having calibrated torque clutches on them. I suggest that a detailed study of the differences between clamp up forces and long-term joint integrity for this technique versus fasteners driven into sheet metal threads with a screw-driver are considerably different, Loctited or not. > Besides, with my two fuse blocks on the aircraft, and a multiple > ground-post strip on the firewall, I'm well covered on ground attach points. Oh, then you don't intend to use the threaded fastener ground block on the fuseholder . . . I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Please assemble your airplane in a manner that suits you best. I'm only offering the simple-ideas in physics and practice that are the foundations of the best we know how to do. Whether or not these are useful to you is a determination only you can make. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob (Rocketboy)" <f1rocketboy(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Replacement
Date: Jan 24, 2004
look here....it might help... http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/alternator.htm Warmest Regards, Bob Gross For the latest F1 progress, click here.. www.F1-Rocketboy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian DalPorto" <dalporto.brian(at)ssd.loral.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Replacement > > I have an O-290 with a GM alternator that has been modified to match the > existing case mounted bracket. the alternator is going bad, the bearings > make noise and I can here a whine in my head sets. The modification on > the existing alternator was to cut away half of the wide mounting boss > on the alternator and insert a spacer on the back side to move the > alternator forward to line up the pulleys. Would like to replace this > alternator with an automotive type Nippondenso and use the brackets I > have. So my questions are; > > 1. Does anybody know if there is a Nippondenso alternator that will fit > the lycoming case mounted bracket? If so what is the part number? > > 2. Does anybody know of someone who makes case mounted brackets like the > one that ASAS sells for the boss mount? > > 3. Counting on having to make my own bracket, what alternator would be > recomended? > > Brian > Marquart MA-5 Charger > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob (Rocketboy)" <f1rocketboy(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Power supplies
Date: Jan 24, 2004
This is kinda like spam (sorry), but entertaining none the less for you guys doing power supplies to run all those computerized avionics. http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/power.htm Warmest Regards, Bob Gross For the latest F1 progress, click here.. www.F1-Rocketboy.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: Fan generating power??
Date: Jan 24, 2004
Hi all, I was recently having a discussion with someone regarding the addition of an automotive radiator fan to my cooling system. This person warned me that these fans can produce power when free-wheeling (spinning from the air blowing thru them). Is there anything to this or just another old wives tale?? If there is, how does one "solve" this (ground both positive and negative fan wires when fan is off??)? Thanks! Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2004
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fan generating power??
Jon Finley wrote: > >Hi all, > >I was recently having a discussion with someone regarding the addition >of an automotive radiator fan to my cooling system. This person warned >me that these fans can produce power when free-wheeling (spinning from >the air blowing thru them). Is there anything to this or just another >old wives tale?? If there is, how does one "solve" this (ground both >positive and negative fan wires when fan is off??)? > >Thanks! > >Jon Finley > Jon, what's to "solve"??? Why do you care if the fan produces power when freewheeling??? If it is a permanent magnet motor it will in fact produce some power when driven by the wind but it's not connected to anything so shouldn't cause any problem. It's the same as your battery sitting there without a connection. Voltage present but no current flowing. If the fan is connected (turned on) and is overdriven fast enough by the wind it acts as a generator reducing the load (however slightly) on your alternator. (but increasing the aerodynamic drag of your airframe.) Connecting both motor leads together and/or grounding them will result in a direct short for this generated power causing even more drag and some heating within the motor. Driving the motor at its rated speed will produce roughly rated voltage. (shorting the motor may not be the best idea) Bob McC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ned Thomas" <315(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fan generating power??
Date: Jan 24, 2004
Hi John, I used to own an RV6A with a Chevy V6 engine. It had an electric fan on the radiator that I eventually removed because it was no longer needed. However, when in flight the fan motor created static in the radio unless I kept the power switch to it turned on. I had built Bob's static filter but did not get to try it out befoe removing the fan. After I completely sealed the baffles the fan was no longer needed. Ned ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fan generating power?? > > Hi all, > > I was recently having a discussion with someone regarding the addition > of an automotive radiator fan to my cooling system. This person warned > me that these fans can produce power when free-wheeling (spinning from > the air blowing thru them). Is there anything to this or just another > old wives tale?? If there is, how does one "solve" this (ground both > positive and negative fan wires when fan is off??)? > > Thanks! > > Jon Finley > N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT > Apple Valley, Minnesota > http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Strobe Supply maintenance
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by >JIM SHERRY (jamesmdsherry(at)aol.com) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 at 08:38:51 > >Sunday, January 25, 2004 > >JIM SHERRY > >, >Email: jamesmdsherry(at)aol.com >Comments/Questions: Hi , I did an EAA aircraft wiring course in Denver >with Marty Elshire. Marty and the course were outstanding! Would you be >able to give Marty a comment? The power supply for Aero Lighting, that is >sold through Cleavland Tool Co. (about last page in catoluge) does need to >be recharged every 6 months. During class Marty did not think the power >supply would bneed a recharge at all and could sit on a shelf until >installed. Thanks, Jim Sherry ( just finishing right wing) This technique of rejuvenating an strobe power supply that has stood idle for long periods of time has some valid roots in the component antiquity. Aluminum electrolytic capacitors are fabricated from thin layers of aluminum foil with a witch's brew of chemicals separating the two foils. During manufacturing, a voltage is applied to the capacitor causing the aluminum to react with the chemistry to form the (+) and (-) plates of capacitor. 40 years ago, it was not uncommon for a "new" capacitor stored for years on the shelf to exhibit a rise in leakage current and a reduction in effective capacity. Near fresh performance could be restored by what is sometimes called a "voltage treatment" . . . charging and holding a capacitor at its rated operating voltage will limiting the charging current with a 1K resistor. If the capacitor is already installed, a similar treatment can be implemented by slowly raising the supply voltage to the system. Aluminum capacitor theory, practice and usage is very nicely described in this document: http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/lib/alminium.pdf Check out page 18, paragraph 2.6 where the author describes this phenomenon and activity with a description of the remedy. Take a look at the bottom graph in figure 2-10 were leakage current with age is plotted. That's a logarithmic scale . . . the typical current rise over a 3 year storage was from 10 to 20 uA. Hmmm . . . that's not much current. Being a firm believer in value of the repeatable experiment, I dug around in the junk box and found a 1000 uF/350V capacitor with a date code of June 1995. I salvaged these from a power supply well over two years ago so I know they've been sitting on my shelf at least two years. I put 300v across this capacitor and measured leakage current. After the initial charging surge, leakage was in the 5 milliampere range. In less than 2 minutes it had fallen to 1 milliampere. After 10 minutes it was about 50 microamperes. This capacitor is about twice the size of that used in a 20 joule/flash power supply so I would expect leakage currents measured above to be higher than those in an exemplar flash capacitor. These values of leakage represent very small, stresses of short duration upon the capacitors or any other components in the system. Yes, the capacitor manufacturers speak of this phenomenon in their engineering literature as well they should. But other engineers should take that data, compare with real-world effects and craft maintenance policy based upon value- added for having made the effort. Bottom line is that some folks have taken a few facts about leakage and ageing of capacitors and spun them into a policy and procedure for strobe supplies that has no practical value. It sure makes good worry-fodder. Unless you've salvaged a strobe system out of an airplane that was manufactured 20+ years ago, I'd 'worry' more about getting the right bolts to attach your prop and the right architecture for your airplane that will insure sweat-free flying. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share information with as may folks as possible. You can join at: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: battery cable size
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by >Lytle Johnson (catrax(at)rockisland.com) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 at 08:33:31 > >Sunday, January 25, 2004 > >Lytle Johnson > >, >Email: catrax(at)rockisland.com >Comments/Questions: Just got your book in the mail. Thank you. (Decatur >Island). Haven't been able to find a simple answer to Is 4AWG cable ok >when I'm running ~15 ft (30' round trip) from Odyssey 680 (RG, I think) to >starter, SuperCub type homebuilt, 180 hp Lycoming? >I'm running a parallel ground cable to the front for a single-point ground >system, and all accessories carry their grounds back to common instead of >relying on airframe. >Sure would like to avoid weight of 2AWG but want to do the right thing. 4AWG is too small for that long a run. I recommend 2AWG. Look into the use of welding cable. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: battery cable size
Date: Jan 25, 2004
Bob, Do you know of a good source for welding cable (2 and 4awg)? Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery cable size >Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by >Lytle Johnson (catrax(at)rockisland.com) on Sunday, January 25, 2004 at 08:33:31 > >Sunday, January 25, 2004 > >Lytle Johnson > >, >Email: catrax(at)rockisland.com >Comments/Questions: Just got your book in the mail. Thank you. (Decatur >Island). Haven't been able to find a simple answer to Is 4AWG cable ok >when I'm running ~15 ft (30' round trip) from Odyssey 680 (RG, I think) to >starter, SuperCub type homebuilt, 180 hp Lycoming? >I'm running a parallel ground cable to the front for a single-point ground >system, and all accessories carry their grounds back to common instead of >relying on airframe. >Sure would like to avoid weight of 2AWG but want to do the right thing. 4AWG is too small for that long a run. I recommend 2AWG. Look into the use of welding cable. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fan generating power??
> >Hi all, > >I was recently having a discussion with someone regarding the addition >of an automotive radiator fan to my cooling system. This person warned >me that these fans can produce power when free-wheeling (spinning from >the air blowing thru them). Is there anything to this or just another >old wives tale?? If there is, how does one "solve" this (ground both >positive and negative fan wires when fan is off??)? > >Thanks! If the motor is permanent magnet or brushless dc, it WILL generate some voltage when the motor is spun by ambient breezes through the fan blade . . . but so what? If your power switch is OFF, the voltage simply appears as a potential source of energy with no place to go. If the voltage is higher than bus voltage, this says that the breezes are rotating the fan at more than design speed for blower. This DOES warrant the question about whether or not the blade is at risk or brushes are wearing out even when the fan isn't needed. We had a brushless design for the condenser blower on a big turboprop that would spin a greater than design speed at cruise. We had to put in a load bank to turn that potential energy into heat and slow the motor down to more reasonable speeds. It's doubtful that you're going to find this kind of problem but it's worth investigating. Put a voltmeter on the motor and see what it reads when the motor is turned OFF and you're in a cruise condition. 90+% probability that there's nothing to be "solved". Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Power supplies
> > >This is kinda like spam (sorry), but entertaining none the less for you guys >doing power supplies to run all those computerized avionics. > >http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/power.htm Kinda cute . . . BUT. These power supplies are plentiful and efficient and cheap . . . but they're set up for computer service at 12.0 volts nominal. You can certainly use them to run things in the airplane but if your battery is on line too, it won't charge the battery . . . in fact, the battery will deliver energy into the system too and become slightly discharge. Look for bench supplies in the 13.8 volt range . . . these are INTENDED to drive automotive products and charge batteries in a 14V vehicular system. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 25, 2004
Bob or anyone else who knows, Both the thermocouple EGT wires for my and the wires for my CHT (resistance) are covered with a woven metal sheathing. (8 total pairs of shielded wire). It would be most convenient to run all the engine sensor wires in a bundle within an inch or so of the back of the radio stack. Is that a problem? Second question: Is the shielding necessary? It would be most convenient to go to unshielded 22 ga wire for all of these once on the cockpit side of the firewall. I could run all the sensor wires in a bundle through a big woven stainless sleeve (Boeing surplus) if that made any difference. Thanks! Terry Watson RV-8A with Blue Mountain EFIS/one Seattle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: battery cable size
> >Bob, >Do you know of a good source for welding cable (2 and 4awg)? >Jim Welding supplies store . . . check your yellow pages. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: battery cable size
Date: Jan 25, 2004
If you can't find any locally, I've got 2ga. on hand in red and black. Terminals and crimping available as well. Dave > > > >Bob, > >Do you know of a good source for welding cable (2 and 4awg)? > >Jim > > Welding supplies store . . . check your yellow pages. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
> >Bob or anyone else who knows, > >Both the thermocouple EGT wires for my and the wires for my CHT (resistance) >are covered with a woven metal sheathing. (8 total pairs of shielded wire). >It would be most convenient to run all the engine sensor wires in a bundle >within an inch or so of the back of the radio stack. Is that a problem? Shouldn't be . . . >Second question: Is the shielding necessary? It would be most convenient >to go to unshielded 22 ga wire for all of these once on the cockpit side of >the firewall. I could run all the sensor wires in a bundle through a big >woven stainless sleeve (Boeing surplus) if that made any difference. If you're extending thermocouple wires, you need to use the same style of thermocouple material for extending them. All of those sensors are low impedance devices and are neither antagonistic to other systems or much of a potential victim. I'm mystified as to why they would be offered as shielded. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Kalamazoo MI Seminar date set
Got the word from folks in Kalamazoo finalizing preparations for a seminar on March 20/21. It will be held in Duncan Aviation's facility on the airport. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/Kalamazoo.html for details. I would appreciate it if subscribers to other lists on Matronics would forward this message to those lists. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Current leak, revisited
> >Per Bob's direction I charged my system by turning on the master. With >the master off the residual voltage was about 0.6volts. When I hooked the >meter into the same side of the circuit to measure current I could not >detect any measurable current at a sensitivity of 0.001 amps. > >I have no capacitors installed, anywhere, at this stage, no engine and >just wiring switches and busses at the moment. > >The diode in the current path is the steering diode and is wired between >the main and ebus, per Z13. > >I think Eric Jones is on the right track, but in the absence of any >capacitors, how about this theory. Could the metal fuselage itself act as >sort of a capacitor, if that possible? Whatever induces the voltage has >a current is less than 1 milliamp and takes many hours to discharge. The e-bus normal feed diode doesn't have any voltage across it unless the battery master or e-bus alternate feed switches are closed. The meter you're using has a VERY high input impedance . . . usually 10 megohms. This means that "leakage" needed to make it indicate .6 volts is on the order of 60 nanoamps. You can get that kind of current flow by shuffling your feed on the carpet. I'm surprised that you don't have some kind of always-on load that would pull the reading on down to zero with all the switches open. In any case, nothing to be concerned about. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Seat Heater Question
> >Randy, > I'd suggest that you wire the low power (trigger) ignition lead from the > main buss. The intent is that you can't activate the circuit if the > ignition (master relay in our case) is off. This is so you don't run down > your battery accidently >Charlie Kuss > > > > >I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 > Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the > relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an > aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of > this. I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the > ignition lead to the wire from the bus. 10A is the protection size . . . what's the REAL current? In any case, consider mounting your relays at the battery bus and put 10A fuses on the bus to power the heaters. Operate the relay controls through switches that get power from the main bus so that they power down during parked and alternator-out operations. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator exchange
> > >Lectric Bob: > > >Given all the discussion about OV protection, I have always intended to >install that kind of insurance on my airplane. I'm finally down to >finishing and bought a firewall forward kit from Van's aircraft. It >contains a rebuilt Nippon Denso alternator (60 amp) but unfortunately that >unit is internally regulated. Wire Figure Z-24 > I think this is the same unit that B&C >modifies and sells. similar . . . > My question is: if I send this unit over to B&C can >they modify it for a reasonable fee? probably but it might take a LONG time . . . I'd use the one you have. > Or maybe I can exchange it and a few >bucks for a B&C alternator that I can use with your OV protection. Or >should I just use it as is because the probability of an OV failure is very >small and therefore not worth the extra money need to modify the unit I >already have? Nope, it's easy to add ov protection to the alternator you have. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 25, 2004
My seat heater documentation call for a 10A fuse too. About 6A is the max I've seen, just as they are turned on. That's 6A per seat, both butt and back heaters. - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 5:01 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question > > > --> > > 10A is the protection size . . . what's the REAL > current? In any case, consider mounting your relays > at the battery bus and put 10A fuses on the bus to > power the heaters. Operate the relay controls through > switches that get power from the main bus so that > they power down during parked and alternator-out operations. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: Fan generating power??
Date: Jan 25, 2004
Well, since the fan positive connection hooks directly into the EFI computer, the "story" goes on to say that odd EFI problems would pop up. So, the "so what?" is an "occasionally" poor running engine that is nearly impossible to diagnose (per the "story"). Since nobody has heard of this problem, I will assume it is just an old wives tale and find something else to worry about. :-) Thanks all, Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru > >--> > > > >Hi all, > > > >I was recently having a discussion with someone regarding > the addition > >of an automotive radiator fan to my cooling system. This > person warned > >me that these fans can produce power when free-wheeling > (spinning from > >the air blowing thru them). Is there anything to this or > just another > >old wives tale?? If there is, how does one "solve" this > (ground both > >positive and negative fan wires when fan is off??)? > > > >Thanks! > > If the motor is permanent magnet or brushless dc, it WILL > generate some voltage when the motor is spun by ambient > breezes through the fan blade . . . but so what? If your > power switch is OFF, the voltage simply appears as a potential > source of energy with no place to go. If the voltage is > higher than bus voltage, this says that the breezes are > rotating the fan at more than design speed for blower. > This DOES warrant the question about whether or not the > blade is at risk or brushes are wearing out even when > the fan isn't needed. > > We had a brushless design for the condenser blower > on a big turboprop that would spin a greater than > design speed at cruise. We had to put in a load bank > to turn that potential energy into heat and slow the > motor down to more reasonable speeds. > > It's doubtful that you're going to find this kind > of problem but it's worth investigating. Put a voltmeter > on the motor and see what it reads when the motor is > turned OFF and you're in a cruise condition. > > 90+% probability that there's nothing to be "solved". > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Low Voltage/OV Warning current from bus to regulator...fuse
or breaker?
Date: Jan 25, 2004
Folks - here's a recent exchange that I'm posting for archival purposes. The list is great too...! Ralph Capen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: E-mail Contact Request > > > > > > Low Voltage/OV Warning current from bus to regulator...fuse or breaker? > > > > > > Should have looked further before I ordered...some of your figures show a > >fuse and others show a breaker. I just ordered a pair of 2A breakers (from > >this site...) for my RV6A that I am setting up per Z12 which shows 2A > >breakers. On further examination, Z13, Z14, Z15 shows fuses of differing > >ratings while Z11 shows a 5A breaker. Doesn't matter to me - now that I > >have already ordered the breakers except they may not be the correct current > >rating and I have ordered plenty of fuses. > > > The wire between the bus and pins 3/5 of the LR3 > regulator can be protected at any level from 1A > (more than current draw) up to 5A (appropriate to > 22AWG wire). You can use either breakers or fuses > depending on what bus and protection style you've > chosen to use. The Field supply to pin 6 should > ALWAYS get a 5A breaker either right on the bus > if your bus structure uses breakers or at some > point downstream of a fusible link if you're using > fuseblocks. > > I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List > to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to > share the information with as many folks as possible. > A further benefit can be realized with membership on > the list. There are lots of technically capable folks > on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can > join at . . . > > http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ > > Thanks! > > Bob . . . > > -------------------------------------------- > ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) > ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) > ( and still understand nothing. ) > ( C.F. Kettering ) > -------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
Subject: Fan generating power??
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
It seems sort of hard to imagine that the fan would be powered directly from the computer. Seems like you would need a relay to handle the current demands of the fan. The relay would provide isolation for the computer from the voltage generated by the freewheeling fan. I guess maybe the computer could be monitoring the voltage on the fan as a means of sensing airflow through the radiator (since the fan probably free wheels in the automotive application), but it seems unlikely, That would likely be a documented feature, if it existed. Regards, Matt- N34RD > > > Well, since the fan positive connection hooks directly into the EFI > computer, the "story" goes on to say that odd EFI problems would pop up. > So, the "so what?" is an "occasionally" poor running engine that is > nearly impossible to diagnose (per the "story"). > > Since nobody has heard of this problem, I will assume it is just an old > wives tale and find something else to worry about. :-) > > Thanks all, > > Jon Finley > N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT > Apple Valley, Minnesota > http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru > >> >--> >> > >> >Hi all, >> > >> >I was recently having a discussion with someone regarding >> the addition >> >of an automotive radiator fan to my cooling system. This >> person warned >> >me that these fans can produce power when free-wheeling >> (spinning from >> >the air blowing thru them). Is there anything to this or >> just another >> >old wives tale?? If there is, how does one "solve" this >> (ground both >> >positive and negative fan wires when fan is off??)? >> > >> >Thanks! >> >> If the motor is permanent magnet or brushless dc, it WILL >> generate some voltage when the motor is spun by ambient >> breezes through the fan blade . . . but so what? If your >> power switch is OFF, the voltage simply appears as a potential >> source of energy with no place to go. If the voltage is >> higher than bus voltage, this says that the breezes are >> rotating the fan at more than design speed for blower. >> This DOES warrant the question about whether or not the >> blade is at risk or brushes are wearing out even when >> the fan isn't needed. >> >> We had a brushless design for the condenser blower >> on a big turboprop that would spin a greater than >> design speed at cruise. We had to put in a load bank >> to turn that potential energy into heat and slow the >> motor down to more reasonable speeds. >> >> It's doubtful that you're going to find this kind >> of problem but it's worth investigating. Put a voltmeter >> on the motor and see what it reads when the motor is >> turned OFF and you're in a cruise condition. >> >> 90+% probability that there's nothing to be "solved". >> >> Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Fan generating power??
> >Well, since the fan positive connection hooks directly into the EFI >computer, the "story" goes on to say that odd EFI problems would pop up. >So, the "so what?" is an "occasionally" poor running engine that is >nearly impossible to diagnose (per the "story"). > >Since nobody has heard of this problem, I will assume it is just an old >wives tale and find something else to worry about. :-) Aha! Not all of the data was out on the table. If this fan is driven by electronics inside some black box, then it is important to know the details of how it happens. I would presume that the black box contains a relay or solid state equivalent to control power to the fan. The black box may also feature some kind of monitoring where voltage downstream of the relay is expected to go away when the command says "OFF". If air driven free-wheeling can cause this signal to be in error, there is a question as to how the black box regards this fact. Something to consider for further investigation in case you experience unexplained abnormal behavior. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
> >My seat heater documentation call for a 10A fuse too. About 6A is the >max I've seen, just as they are turned on. That's 6A per seat, both >butt and back heaters. Do you ever find it useful to run only one of the two heaters in each seat? If so, which one? If just one, then a 2-10 switch could be wired for OFF-BUTT-BOTH or OFF-BACK-BOTH. Each seat could be handled nicely from the main bus through the switch and eliminate the relays entirely. This would be true if the relays are used only to control heaters via the panel switches. Are there any thermostats in the seats to prevent overheating? If so, they'll take advantage of the low coil current in relays. If this is the case, then the relays are needed. We've heard it said that pictures are worth thousands of words . . . I'll suggest that schematics are worth a lot too. They really help you understand how the thing really works. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Fan generating power??
> >It seems sort of hard to imagine that the fan would be powered >directly from the computer. Seems like you would need a relay >to handle the current demands of the fan. The relay would >provide isolation for the computer from the voltage generated >by the freewheeling fan. I guess maybe the computer could be monitoring >the voltage on the fan as a means of sensing airflow through the radiator >(since the fan probably free wheels in the automotive application), but it >seems unlikely, That would likely be a documented feature, if it existed. Gee Matt . . . "documented" . . . oh yes, this is an automotive application. Probably a lot fewer surprises on important matters than we see in airplanes. It sure would be nice to see a schematic of the EFI. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: richard(at)riley.net
Subject: Turn and slip voltage?
I have a small JET turn and slip indicator, it's marked ARU/54-A. A search on the web shows it came from an AV-8B Harrier. It has a 6 pin connector. Anyone have any idea what kind of voltage it wants? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: KT-76A Pinout Clarification
> > >OK, the KT-76A has shown up in the extensive (expensive?) Honeywell box. >I've downloaded Bob's pinout PDF for this unit, but want to make sure its >wired up correctly. The connector that came with the unit does not have a >"one way" tab to prevent a reversed assembly, but the pin numbers and >letters on the connector are as shown in Bob's pinout, and the edge >connector on the unit has a slot near one end, such that the numbers and >letters seem to match. But before I accidentally let all the smoke out of >the insides, has anyone done a recent install and can confirm this? First, if you have the KT76A, then I'm curious as to where you got the pinout. Until a few minutes ago, only the KT76/78 drawing was posted the KT76A/76C/78A drawing at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KT76A-76C-78A.pdf This drawing shows the keyway plug being inserted between pins 3/4, C/D. This should get your plug lined up properly and confirm that numbered pins are on the top surface of the ECB connector sticking out through the hole in the case. >Couple other questions: (1) What are the A1, A2, A4, B1, B2, B4, C1, C2, >C4, and D4 circuits for? Encoder? Yes. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/T2000-ACK350_Wiring.pdf for an exemplar wiring diagram for the Microair T2000 and an ACK350 encoder. > (2) The "Ext Ident" and "Ext Stby" >would appear to be for external/remote switching of these functions. Correct. > But what is "DME Suppression"??? Since DME and Transponders are very closely spaced in frequency, there was need for a way to let each other know when they were transmitting. This suppression signal keeps the transponder transmitter from overloading the DME receiver and vice versa. > (3)Is there a preferred way to test the >connections and function to be sure everything's wired up right? Wire carefully. Have someone help you ring out the wires with buzzer from one connector to another, swap connectors and repeat. This will find 99.99% of errors. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: Fan generating power??
Date: Jan 25, 2004
Your right Matt, I completely forgot about the relay. So, to clarify; the ECU drives a relay which controls the fan. This relay makes the story seem even less plausible. As far as documentation goes: My current electrical system diagram is at: http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=131 (no fan). The stock Subaru EFI documentation is at: http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=142 in the service manuals (1990 EJ-22 Legacy). Pages and pages of wiring... :-) Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru > --> > > >--> > > > >It seems sort of hard to imagine that the fan would be > powered directly > >from the computer. Seems like you would need a relay > >to handle the current demands of the fan. The relay would > >provide isolation for the computer from the voltage generated by the > >freewheeling fan. I guess maybe the computer could be > monitoring the > >voltage on the fan as a means of sensing airflow through the > radiator > >(since the fan probably free wheels in the automotive > application), but > >it seems unlikely, That would likely be a documented feature, if it > >existed. > > Gee Matt . . . "documented" . . . oh yes, this is an > automotive application. Probably a lot fewer surprises > on important matters than we see in airplanes. > > It sure would be nice to see a schematic of the EFI. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuse Block Design Debate
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer(at)genmar.com>
Bob, et.al. I love a good debate, and you took me to task on some of my points made last week, so let me respond..... Bob said: The fast-on plows a groove in the tab . . . forces greater than the tab material can resist have bared fresh, sub-surface material. Further, as the joint ages, pressures do not materially change (unless you have funky fast-ons of poor material) so ANY motion tends to dig the terminal's magic-points-of-contact in deeper. Can't argue with much here except the phrase "forces greater than the tab material" - not sure what that means. I agree, any motion will dig deeper into the tab, but in the process scrapes off any (tin) plating and promotes oxidation of the substrate (usually copper) Bob said: if "better" means higher contact pressure over the lifetime of the joint, then the fast-on has it hands down. If you have some other definition of better, we need to know what it is and examine its physics. With any joint, whether thermal or electrical, two physical factors come into play - area and pressure. The Fast-On tab wins hands down on pressure but looses on contact area. In measuring one of my connectors for 20 ga. wire, the high pressure contact ridges (the end of the rolled edges) measure .015" thick and .3" long. This is an area of .015" x .3" x 2, or .009 in 2. Using your logic about contact pressure, I would think that the back side of the connector, where the large contact area does exist, cannot achieve pressures as high as a screwed joint, so your arguments above do not apply here. Conversely, a ring terminal has a contact area of about .08 in 2, or about 10 times the Fast-On's area. I'm not interested in getting into the mechanics of screw-torque vs. pressure on a screwed connection with 32 threads/turn, with a certain surface friction and class of thread. My only point is that I think we're splitting hairs on one connection method being demonstrably better than the other. Screwed posts have been around since Edison's days, and if it wasn't reliable, then why do we use it on battery terminals, contactor terminals, alternator B posts, starter motors, and feed lines to the Fast-On style fuse block? The advantage of Fast-On tabs is just that - they are faster to put on. Bob said: Why is this a good deal? I thought the super low price and availably of fuse-holder slots versus acres-of-breakers offered us a way to have EVERY accessory enjoy its OWN independently protected source. Bob, even in your book on page 10-2 you allow for some items to share a single fuse or breaker. My GlaStar will have three fuse blocks, with a total of 28 fused circuits, so I would not say I have economized from this standpoint. I'm only saying that a ring terminal would be a convenient point for feeding two lines with the same purpose, like feeding two lighting dimmers for two separate controllable lighting circuits. Bob said: But you'll never see a chrome plated terminal or connector product offered by AMP, Molex, Cannon, Ampehnol, etc. etc. Wonder why . . . . What are you talking about?!? Just about every RF and audio connector I have ever seen is chrome plated, unless you go to the expensive gold-plated models. I can't think of one family of connector (for RF transmission) where inconsistent contact resistance could be more problematic. Chrome plating is not used on certain connectors because it cannot be soldered, is very hard, and it cannot withstand severe flexing (chrome is brittle). It's difficult to economically beat chrome plating for surface hardness and corrosion resistance. (Besides, it also looks nice on my Buick's bumper) Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: First day of school jitters . . .
> >Comments/Questions: I'm nervous this will be over my head from the >'get-go'. I'll do my best to have at least the better part of the >AeroElectric Connection read before the seminar. I'm a first time builder, >RV-7, finishing up the fuselage over the next few months and then ready to >start the panel. It sure would be nice to get the electrical system right >the first time around. Not to worry. This program is for folks like yourself. The electrical system is assembled from a big box of tinker-toys. Each component is simple and easily understood. Like tinker-toys, they can be assembled in a variety of ways depending on your goals are for the airplane . . . and easily modified later if you find that some particular goal has changed or is not being met. I know it's a strange new vernacular but once you breach what is essentially a language barrier, you'll be able to discuss your goals with others and exploit their ideas and successes. Join the AeroElectric-List, attend this class and be assured that putting the electrical system together should be the fun part of building an airplane. There are hundreds of folks just like yourself who are getting this done every year. We're all here to help. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Grounding,LED Toggle Switches
> > >Bob, >Thanks for the Jeff City seminar. I found it particularly useful. Perhaps >we can get you to the Carolinas in the coming year. Sure, put out some feelers in your area. No reason we couldn't do one in your neck of the woods. >My first question is your opinion on running wing tip/ position, landing >light, and taillight grounds to the fire wall mounted main ship ground. Is >any advantage gained? No. In a metal airplane, I'd ground nav lights, strobe power supply, landing and taxi lights and pitot heaters locally to airframe. > My initial impression is no. I do intend to bring all >other cockpit/panel grounds individually to the B&C Faston ground block >mounted on the FW as described in the AEC. Good move . . . > >Secondly, are you familar with the NKK 2100 SeriesLED illuminated toggle >switches. I was considering making all night operated switches these in >order to minimize the amount of cockpit lighting required yet make them >instantly identifiable. I have no personal knowledge of these. I downloaded the data sheets from http://www.nkkswitches.com and note that these clever little switches are offered only in miniature sizes and that they don't offer any of the progressive transfer versions like B&C's 2-10 and 2-50. These can certainly be used but you'll find that some functions will require external relays for buffering higher current loads and/or achieving the special functions. This is not a cost issue. . . . relays are cheap. If you want the appearance offered by this product, it can certainly be accomplished. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:Fuse Block Design Debate
Mark, Regarding the chrome plating, are you sure you're not mistaking bright nickel plate for chrome? None of the RF connector catalogs I checked list chrome as a plating option. Bright nickel, silver, and gold are some of the plating options offered by Amphenol, FCI/Berg, Molex, Kings, and Trompeter. No mention of chrome. Mike __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Wiegenstein" <N727JW(at)hellerwiegenstein.com>
Subject: Re: KT-76A Pinout Clarification
Date: Jan 26, 2004
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KT-76A Pinout Clarification >> >>> >>OK, the KT-76A has shown up in the extensive (expensive?) Honeywell box. >>I've downloaded Bob's pinout PDF for this unit, but want to make sure its >>wired up correctly. The connector that came with the unit does not have a >>"one way" tab to prevent a reversed assembly, but the pin numbers and >>letters on the connector are as shown in Bob's pinout, and the edge >>connector on the unit has a slot near one end, such that the numbers and >>letters seem to match. But before I accidentally let all the smoke out of >>the insides, has anyone done a recent install and can confirm this? > First, if you have the KT76A, then I'm curious as to where > you got the pinout. Until a few minutes ago, only the KT76/78 > drawing was posted the KT76A/76C/78A drawing at: > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KT76A-76C-78A.pdf > This drawing shows the keyway plug being inserted between pins > 3/4, C/D. This should get your plug lined up properly and confirm > that numbered pins are on the top surface of the ECB connector > sticking out through the hole in the case. Bob, thanks for the feedback on this. Everything is wired up fine and checks out with your comments above, and when the AK350 encoder arrived Saturday that made everything clear on the encoder to transponder connections. As far as the availability of the KT-76A PDF on your site, the existing link for the KT-76 printed out 3 pages and (unless I'm hallucinating) had KT-76A specific details on page 2 and 3. The new link above looks to be the same as pages 2 and 3 of the old one, at least from memory as I sit here in the office. Anyway, looks like I'm good to go. The AK350 encoder and ICOM A200 transceiver just arrived, so with a little more work I should be ready to test everything out. Thanks again for your ongoing assistance - can't imagine how OBAM birds got built before the internet came along! :-) John H. Wiegenstein Hansville, WA RV-6 #23961 - N727JW (reserved) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 26, 2004
If you're extending thermocouple wires, you need to use the same style of thermocouple material for extending them. All of those sensors are low impedance devices and are neither antagonistic to other systems or much of a potential victim. I'm mystified as to why they would be offered as shielded. Bob . . . Thermocouple wires Bob, Thanks for the reply to my question about thermocouple wires. It is still not completely clear in my mind how best to handle this, so I checked the Matronics archives for some previous discussions. One particularly helpful one was where you gave reference to Omega's website where I can order spools of thermocouple wire. I believe the EGT thermocouples are manufactured by Electronics International. The thermocouple comes with maybe four or six feet of two conductor solid core wire, shielded and terminating in a male and a female spade connector. I ordered four of their six-foot extension wires (at $32.00 each), which are also solid core and have spade connectors each end that match up with the original wires I need the thermocouple wires to end up as a part of a 37-pin d-sub connector that connects to the CPU of the Blue Mountain EFIS/one system. I am quite concerned that these stiff single strand wires are not going to take the handling that this d-sub connector is going to get. I had been advised that I could switch to standard 22 ga wire, as long as the change from the thermocouple wires were behind the firewall where both conductors would be in the same environment. I thought this must be because the CPU can calibrate whatever information it gets from the thermocouple into a useable value to be displayed on the screen. So now my questions: First, is it reasonable to believe what I had been told about the CPU being able to calibrate the signals when there is some standard copper wiring between the thermocouple and the CPU? If so, would it be reasonable to just cut off the spade connectors on the thermocouple wire and use butt splices between the copper and the thermocouple wire? Second, if that is not the case, would it make sense to order some stranded thermocouple wire from Omega for the final run to the 37 pin d-sub? I need to extend the wires anyway, and the stranded wire should take the flexing better than the solid that I have. How should this be spliced to the existing solid core wire? Do I need to silver solder it? Thanks Bob. I really appreciate your help. Terry RV-8A Seattle ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Question!
Date: Jan 26, 2004
Bob and/or Others: I am using the two battery/one alternator approach for a basic VFR RV-9A. I have an Oddyssey PC680 battery (14.4 lbs). Instead of using a "little" battery as the second power supply what do you think of using TWO PC680s. The two batteries would have a minor weight penalty over Vans recommeded Concorde RG-25. However, I could then cycle the two batteries - replacing the "main" battery up to twice as often - or twice as long. I wouldn't have to worry about sourcing the main PC680 while on extended X/C trips (winter getaways, etc). I don't see any problems - other than the 4-5 lbs of weight ( I can tolerate more upfront weight ). Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop 90% Complete - instruments ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 26, 2004
I figured I would put in my $0.02... First a little thermocouple theory, thermocouples measure a temperature difference. That is a thermocouple measures the difference between the temperature at your EGT or CHT probe point and the point where the connection changes back to some other metal, aka copper. So for example the Westach EGT and CHT gauges assumes that the temperature where the junction returns to copper is always 68 degrees. Therefore if your thermocouple wires return to copper in the cockpit and where it is 90 degrees you have 22 degrees error in your measurement. That is where the thermocouple wires change to the same wire type permanently this is the reference junction temperature point. Now one of the sticking points is connectors. That is if I have a thermocouple extension wire which is connected to the probe wiring using copper connectors, then what happens. Well basically if both of the thermocouple wires have the same connectors and are at the same temperature then there is no error. Think of it as one connector, on positive wire, creates a voltage and the other, on the negative wire, subtracts the same voltage since they are at the same temperature, thus no error. So basically to answer your question, ask the Blue Mountain folks how they did there reference junction temperature measurement. Most likely they used a constant 68 degrees, thus going to copper wires inside the cockpit will not be a problem. If they did use a constant 68 degrees as reference temperature and you ran the thermocouple wires all the way back to unit you will have about the same error. If they actually measure the D-sub connector temperature then I would run thermocouple wire all the way to the D-sub for most accurate measurement. Personally I use Omega's 20 gauge stranded thermocouple wire, with Teflon insulation, for extension wire. I can give part numbers if you like. Also on my engine monitor I have it measuring the reference junction temperature such that I have only a few degrees error from the NIST measurement standard across the entire range of the thermocouples. Also one of your questions was about shielding the thermocouple wires. The probes for the EGTs and CHTs usually have metal shielding more for heat and abrasion than for electrical shielding. The thermocouple wires are very low impedance sensors, which means it is hard to generate noise on the wiring. Therefore electrical shielding is not needed. Now I say this but I have heard stories about instruments which have some ground loop problems which is different than the shielding. The ground loop problem is rather simple. On an air cooled engine each head is connected to the main block using steel bolts and the heads are aluminum therefore each head acts as a thermocouple it's self. Therefore there can be a small voltage difference from the head for cly #1 to #2. Thermocouples operate on a small voltage, under .050 Volts, thus small ground potential differences between heads have been known to cause a lot of problems on some engine monitors. Therefore one of the things I have made sure of on my engine monitor is that the unit can handle ground noise up to +/2 Volts on the thermocouple inputs. This ground noise problem was so bad I heard of one company actually making probes which are isolated from the cylinder head grounds. Regards, Trampas -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Shielded sensor wires If you're extending thermocouple wires, you need to use the same style of thermocouple material for extending them. All of those sensors are low impedance devices and are neither antagonistic to other systems or much of a potential victim. I'm mystified as to why they would be offered as shielded. Bob . . . Thermocouple wires Bob, Thanks for the reply to my question about thermocouple wires. It is still not completely clear in my mind how best to handle this, so I checked the Matronics archives for some previous discussions. One particularly helpful one was where you gave reference to Omega's website where I can order spools of thermocouple wire. I believe the EGT thermocouples are manufactured by Electronics International. The thermocouple comes with maybe four or six feet of two conductor solid core wire, shielded and terminating in a male and a female spade connector. I ordered four of their six-foot extension wires (at $32.00 each), which are also solid core and have spade connectors each end that match up with the original wires I need the thermocouple wires to end up as a part of a 37-pin d-sub connector that connects to the CPU of the Blue Mountain EFIS/one system. I am quite concerned that these stiff single strand wires are not going to take the handling that this d-sub connector is going to get. I had been advised that I could switch to standard 22 ga wire, as long as the change from the thermocouple wires were behind the firewall where both conductors would be in the same environment. I thought this must be because the CPU can calibrate whatever information it gets from the thermocouple into a useable value to be displayed on the screen. So now my questions: First, is it reasonable to believe what I had been told about the CPU being able to calibrate the signals when there is some standard copper wiring between the thermocouple and the CPU? If so, would it be reasonable to just cut off the spade connectors on the thermocouple wire and use butt splices between the copper and the thermocouple wire? Second, if that is not the case, would it make sense to order some stranded thermocouple wire from Omega for the final run to the 37 pin d-sub? I need to extend the wires anyway, and the stranded wire should take the flexing better than the solid that I have. How should this be spliced to the existing solid core wire? Do I need to silver solder it? Thanks Bob. I really appreciate your help. Terry RV-8A Seattle ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Berg" <wfberg(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Question!
Date: Jan 26, 2004
I have the same setup in my RV-8. I will be interested in Bob's reply. Wayne Berg ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernest Kells Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question! Bob and/or Others: I am using the two battery/one alternator approach for a basic VFR RV-9A. I have an Oddyssey PC680 battery (14.4 lbs). Instead of using a "little" battery as the second power supply what do you think of using TWO PC680s. The two batteries would have a minor weight penalty over Vans recommeded Concorde RG-25. However, I could then cycle the two batteries - replacing the "main" battery up to twice as often - or twice as long. I wouldn't have to worry about sourcing the main PC680 while on extended X/C trips (winter getaways, etc). I don't see any problems - other than the 4-5 lbs of weight ( I can tolerate more upfront weight ). Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop 90% Complete - instruments ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Question!
> >I have the same setup in my RV-8. I will be interested in Bob's reply. >Wayne Berg > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ernest Kells >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question! > > > >Bob and/or Others: >I am using the two battery/one alternator approach for a basic VFR RV-9A. I >have an Oddyssey PC680 battery (14.4 lbs). Instead of using a "little" >battery as the second power supply what do you think of using TWO PC680s. >The two batteries would have a minor weight penalty over Vans recommeded >Concorde RG-25. However, I could then cycle the two batteries - replacing >the "main" battery up to twice as often - or twice as long. I wouldn't >have to worry about sourcing the main PC680 while on extended X/C trips >(winter getaways, etc). I don't see any problems - other than the 4-5 lbs >of weight ( I can tolerate more upfront weight ). >Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop >90% Complete - instruments My favorite combination is a pair of 17 a.h. RG batteries that weigh about 15 pounds each. You can save some money by using the Panasonic batteries instead of PC680 . . . more economical for the yearly change-out style of preventative maintenance. The batteries don't have to be indentical. Run a Panasonic in conjunction with the 680 for a year and put a second Panasonic in at next annual. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Block Design Debate
> > >Bob, et.al. > >I love a good debate, and you took me to task on some of my points made >last week, so let me respond..... > >Bob said: The fast-on plows a groove in the tab . . . forces > greater than the tab material can resist have bared > fresh, sub-surface material. Further, as the joint > ages, pressures do not materially change (unless you > have funky fast-ons of poor material) so ANY motion > tends to dig the terminal's magic-points-of-contact > in deeper. > >Can't argue with much here except the phrase "forces greater than the tab >material" - not sure what that means. poor semantics . . . "forces beyond that which the tab material can resist . . . the fast-on makes sharp edged contact with the tab and upsets the metal at the surface". > I agree, any motion will dig deeper into the tab, but in the process > scrapes off any (tin) plating and promotes oxidation of the substrate > (usually copper) except where pressure of the contact area precludes corrosion. Granted, this is not without limits. Fastons are not appropriate for severe environments. I'd think twice about salt-water marine applications. But airplanes are really rather benign. >Bob said: if "better" means higher contact pressure over the lifetime > of the joint, then the fast-on has it hands down. > If you have some other definition of better, we > need to know what it is and examine its physics. > >With any joint, whether thermal or electrical, two physical factors come >into play - area and pressure. The Fast-On tab wins hands down on pressure >but looses on contact area. In measuring one of my connectors for 20 ga. >wire, the high pressure contact ridges (the end of the rolled edges) >measure .015" thick and .3" long. This is an area of .015" x .3" x 2, or >.009 in Current carrying ability is a function of area and gas tightness is a function of pressure. >2. Using your logic about contact pressure, I would think that the back >side of the connector, where the large contact area does exist, cannot >achieve pressures as high as a screwed joint, so your arguments above do >not apply here. They do not. The back side of a fast on is there to keep the two sides together. While it contributes to conductivity while new, it's not critical to the future due to it's large area, low pressure contact which is not resistant to environmental effects. > Conversely, a ring terminal has a contact area of about .08 in >2, or about 10 times the Fast-On's area. I'm not interested in getting >into the mechanics of screw-torque vs. pressure on a screwed connection >with 32 threads/turn, with a certain surface friction and class of thread. >My only point is that I think we're splitting hairs on one connection >method being demonstrably better than the other. No, it's apples and oranges. Ring terminals get their gas-tight qualities from a process that is user controlled. Fast-ons are designed to be independent of process effects. Both are just fine if their respective limits are recognized and considered in the design. > Screwed posts have been around since Edison's days, and if it wasn't > reliable, then why do we use it on battery terminals, contactor > terminals, alternator B posts, starter motors, and feed lines to the > Fast-On style fuse block? The advantage of Fast-On tabs is just that - > they are faster to put on. "reliable" is comparative. Never said threaded terminals are "bad" . . . just that fast-on are have features that make them preferred. It's like crimp versus solder. Both technologies are fine within their respective limits. >Bob said: Why is this a good deal? I thought the super low price > and availably of fuse-holder slots versus acres-of-breakers > offered us a way to have EVERY accessory enjoy its OWN > independently protected source. > >Bob, even in your book on page 10-2 you allow for some items to share a >single fuse or breaker. My GlaStar will have three fuse blocks, with a >total of 28 fused circuits, so I would not say I have economized from this >standpoint. I'm only saying that a ring terminal would be a convenient >point for feeding two lines with the same purpose, like feeding two >lighting dimmers for two separate controllable lighting circuits. Point well taken. But you can also crimp multiple wires into a single fast-on terminal. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html >Bob said: But you'll never see a chrome plated terminal or connector > product offered by AMP, Molex, Cannon, Ampehnol, etc. etc. > Wonder why . . . . > >What are you talking about?!? Just about every RF and audio connector I >have ever seen is chrome plated, unless you go to the expensive >gold-plated models. I can't think of one family of connector (for RF >transmission) where inconsistent contact resistance could be more >problematic. Chrome plating is not used on certain connectors because it >cannot be soldered, is very hard, and it cannot withstand severe flexing >(chrome is brittle). It's difficult to economically beat chrome plating >for surface hardness and corrosion resistance. (Besides, it also looks >nice on my Buick's bumper) Don't think chrome is used in electrical contact surfaces. The HOUSINGS of connectors can be chromed. There are a number of 'bright' finishes with much better electrical characteristics than chrome that are often mistaken for chrome. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: KT-76A Pinout Clarification
> >Bob, thanks for the feedback on this. Everything is wired up fine and >checks out with your comments above, and when the AK350 encoder arrived >Saturday that made everything clear on the encoder to transponder >connections. great . . . >As far as the availability of the KT-76A PDF on your site, the existing link >for the KT-76 printed out 3 pages and (unless I'm hallucinating) had KT-76A >specific details on page 2 and 3. The new link above looks to be the same >as pages 2 and 3 of the old one, at least from memory as I sit here in the >office. I'm mystified. When I checked the server directory, I didn't see the A series drawings. I went to the archives and re-created them for posting just before I replied last night. Must be server gremlins again . . . pesky critters . . . >Anyway, looks like I'm good to go. The AK350 encoder and ICOM A200 >transceiver just arrived, so with a little more work I should be ready to >test everything out. Thanks again for your ongoing assistance - can't >imagine how OBAM birds got built before the internet came along! :-) Oh, they made it . . . but in fewer numbers and with more expensive educational experiences. The 'net is the backbone of GA future in small aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Shielded sensor wires
> >I figured I would put in my $0.02... > >First a little thermocouple theory, thermocouples measure a temperature >difference. That is a thermocouple measures the difference between the >temperature at your EGT or CHT probe point and the point where the >connection changes back to some other metal, aka copper. So for example the >Westach EGT and CHT gauges assumes that the temperature where the junction >returns to copper is always 68 degrees. Therefore if your thermocouple wires >return to copper in the cockpit and where it is 90 degrees you have 22 >degrees error in your measurement. That is where the thermocouple wires >change to the same wire type permanently this is the reference junction >temperature point. reference junctions are either tied down to some known temperature like an ice bath (0 degrees C) See figure 14-10 in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf or they are ambient compensated like the example shown in figure 14-12 view B. It's a poor design that "assumes" a remote reference junction will reside at 68 degrees or any other temperature unless pains are taken to make sure they stay at that temperature. >Now one of the sticking points is connectors. That is if I have a >thermocouple extension wire which is connected to the probe wiring using >copper connectors, then what happens. Well basically if both of the >thermocouple wires have the same connectors and are at the same temperature >then there is no error. Think of it as one connector, on positive wire, >creates a voltage and the other, on the negative wire, subtracts the same >voltage since they are at the same temperature, thus no error. > >So basically to answer your question, ask the Blue Mountain folks how they >did there reference junction temperature measurement. Most likely they used >a constant 68 degrees, thus going to copper wires inside the cockpit will >not be a problem. If they did use a constant 68 degrees as reference >temperature and you ran the thermocouple wires all the way back to unit you >will have about the same error. If they actually measure the D-sub connector >temperature then I would run thermocouple wire all the way to the D-sub for >most accurate measurement. > I would be very disappointed in Blue Mountain if their system is so constructed. It's almost a sure bet that their thermocouple amplifiers are commercial devices like this Analog Devices part: http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/421725987AD594_5_c.pdf In this case, the designer intends that you bring thermocouple wire all the way to the connector at their signal conditioning box. This should be apparent from simple examination of their wiring diagrams. What do they tell you to do with thermocouple sensors? >Personally I use Omega's 20 gauge stranded thermocouple wire, with Teflon >insulation, for extension wire. I can give part numbers if you like. Also on >my engine monitor I have it measuring the reference junction temperature >such that I have only a few degrees error from the NIST measurement standard >across the entire range of the thermocouples. > >Also one of your questions was about shielding the thermocouple wires. The >probes for the EGTs and CHTs usually have metal shielding more for heat and >abrasion than for electrical shielding. The thermocouple wires are very low >impedance sensors, which means it is hard to generate noise on the wiring. >Therefore electrical shielding is not needed. Now I say this but I have >heard stories about instruments which have some ground loop problems which >is different than the shielding. > >The ground loop problem is rather simple. On an air cooled engine each head >is connected to the main block using steel bolts and the heads are aluminum >therefore each head acts as a thermocouple it's self. Therefore there can be >a small voltage difference from the head for cly #1 to #2. Thermocouples >operate on a small voltage, under .050 Volts, thus small ground potential >differences between heads have been known to cause a lot of problems on some >engine monitors. Therefore one of the things I have made sure of on my >engine monitor is that the unit can handle ground noise up to +/2 Volts on >the thermocouple inputs. This ground noise problem was so bad I heard of one >company actually making probes which are isolated from the cylinder head >grounds. Isolated probes are preferred. My designs usually expect them. If isolated probes are not supplied/specified, then it's REALLY important to have the firewall mounted single point ground for stuff on the panel . . . which is attached to the crankcase with a really fat ground strap. Blue Mountain's installation instructions should touch on this if it's important. If they're using the Analog Devices chips, the signal conditioner is relatively immune to common mode voltages of the magnitude suggested by Trampas. See page 4 of the AD594 data sheet, second paragraph. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Subject: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
From: Don Boardman <dboardm3(at)twcny.rr.com>
Hi All, B & C has been my electrical supplier for my Moose project. I have been very pleased with their products and service. Two things they do not have in their inventory. 1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine side of the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side grounds. I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no retail. Any Leads? 2. I have been looking for some quality terminal blocks. The installation of out Aerocet Amphib Floats calls for terminal blocks to make the wire transitions from fuselage to floats (a bunch of wires for all that gear up and down stuff). I finally found a style that I though would work well manufactured by Marco. A mill spec MS27212 screw post block. Just the ticket! Great! Then found them for sale at Chief Aircraft ... 20 terminal block (which can be cut) with # 6 screw posts ONLY $69.95. ARE THEY OUT OF THEIR MINDS. Also a 16 terminal #10 screw (could really torque those babies) a bargin at $31.95. Maybe I will use D-sub connectors. Help! Comments, Don B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
> >Hi All, > >B & C has been my electrical supplier for my Moose project. I have been very >pleased with their products and service. Two things they do not have in >their inventory. > > >1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine side of >the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. >Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side grounds. >I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no >retail. >Any Leads? Those are hard to come by in small quantities. We've spent a lot of time getting those strips in 10,000 part reels. This was one of the big drivers for bringing that product to the marketplace. Occasionally, I've run across dual fast-on males that attach with a screw. These could be pop-riveted to a piece of brass and then soldered. I suspect the total $time$ spent may exceed the cost of another block from B&C . . . >2. I have been looking for some quality terminal blocks. The installation of >out Aerocet Amphib Floats calls for terminal blocks to make the wire >transitions from fuselage to floats (a bunch of wires for all that gear up >and down stuff). I finally found a style that I though would work well >manufactured by Marco. A mill spec MS27212 screw post block. Just the >ticket! Great! Then found them for sale at Chief Aircraft ... >20 terminal block (which can be cut) with # 6 screw posts ONLY $69.95. ARE >THEY OUT OF THEIR MINDS. Nope, just an increasingly rare, threaded terminal product out of yesteryear. Nobody uses them much any more. > Also a 16 terminal #10 screw (could really torque >those babies) a bargin at $31.95. >Maybe I will use D-sub connectors. If all the wires are signal and control stuff, 20 or 22AWG, then the D-sub is ideal. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: Clay R <clayr_55(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Alternator - Thermocouples
Listers, I have an issue that touches on several recently discussed subjects and combines them in a new and interesting way. I have van's 60A alternator (internally regulated) wired as depicted in Z-24 with a contactor to isolate it if field voltage is removed via the switch or OV protection. I also have a Blue Mountain EFIS/One, using grounded thermocouples for the EGTs. I have a central ground point for everything, using the B&C firewall ground block, and a big B&C ground strap going from that bolt to the engine block. I started the engine for the first time on Sunday. Everything looked good, and the voltage went from 12v to 13.5v when I turned on the alt field after start. However, I noticed my EGT temps were jumping wildly. CHTs were OK. On the 2nd start, I tried turning the Alt Field off, and the EGT numbers were nice and steady. Alt field back on, and they jumped around.. alt off, and they were steady. By the 3rd start, I noticed that when I turned the alt field on, the voltage no longer went up to 13.5, but stayed right at 12v. However, the EGTs did continue to jump when the alt switch was on, but were steady with it off. (what is the significance of this?) Does anyone know where this is going yet? I took the alternator off the plane, and took it to an auto parts store to be checked. They said it failed the tests. (I wish I would have run the tests mentioned in the connection first, but didn't have it with me at the time) After talking to Vans, they said I probably blew the voltage regulator by switching off the field that disconnected the B-lead at the contactor. Switching off field after it has started doesn't stop the alternator because it gets field power from the B-lead. They said they've been seeing this a lot lately on alternators wired per z-24. Would it be an accurate statement to say that: "Turning off the alt field after it has been turned on for an internally regulated alternator wired as depicted in Z-24 is a death sentence for the alternator. An overvolt condition will also open the contactor and finish off the alternator for good." If so, this might be a handy piece of information to add to that diagram because it would have saved me some trouble. As far as my EGT troubles go, I'll have to troubleshoot that some more after I get my alternator fixed, but I'm going to start by making sure the ground strap is making good contact with the engine case. Any other things I should check? I suppose another "alternative" is to switch to an externally regulated alternator, but I can't see spending over $800 for the B&C alternator/regulator combo for my VFR only plane. Aren't there some more reasonable alternatives? Thanks, Clay __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jack eckdahl" <eckdahl(at)dellmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Subject: Wiring PTT button
I have one of the wooden stick grips purchased through Vans. The PTT button has two tiny posts and my instructions say to wire across these two posts. My wire to the PTT has is shielded. How is this connection made? thanks for any help you might offer. Jack -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Don - I bought the firewall ground package from B&C. It included a 48 tab brass board for the cabin side and a 24 tab brass board for the enginer side. Included were spacer washers and the studs and nuts to fasten it it to the firewall and connect the two pieces electrically. Cheers, John Schroeder wrote: > > > Hi All, > > B & C has been my electrical supplier for my Moose project. I have been > very > pleased with their products and service. Two things they do not have in > their inventory. > > > 1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine > side of > the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. > Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side > grounds. > I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no > retail. > Any Leads? > > > 2. I have been looking for some quality terminal blocks. The > installation of > out Aerocet Amphib Floats calls for terminal blocks to make the wire > transitions from fuselage to floats (a bunch of wires for all that gear > up > and down stuff). I finally found a style that I though would work well > manufactured by Marco. A mill spec MS27212 screw post block. Just the > ticket! Great! Then found them for sale at Chief Aircraft ... > 20 terminal block (which can be cut) with # 6 screw posts ONLY $69.95. > ARE > THEY OUT OF THEIR MINDS. Also a 16 terminal #10 screw (could really > torque > those babies) a bargin at $31.95. > Maybe I will use D-sub connectors. > > Help! > Comments, > Don B > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
Don, Regarding the ground terminals, I'm not sure, but I "think" that the ground block terminal portion of the fuse block that Stein sells can be removed from the rest of the fuse block. Might be a little cheaper and if you need another fuse block somewhere, maybe you could kill two birds with one stone by splitting it up. Check with Stein at steinair.com first though, because I don't have one in my hands to verify. Mike __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Leonard Garceau" <lhgcpg(at)westriv.com>
Subject: Wiring for my LOM
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Hi Bob, I'm putting a LOM in my Glastar. The newer engines have the B & C alternator. YEH! I have the wiring diagram for the LOM with a generator. Should I combine the LOM diagram with some other diagram? Leonard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: klehman(at)albedo.net
Subject: manual battery switch
Any thoughts on the suitability of this $13. manual battery switch. It's light and cheap. Supposed to be good for 300 amps. http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-41860 thanks Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <kkinney(at)fuse.net>
Subject: Re: NKK LED toggle switches
Date: Jan 27, 2004
I've got a few of the NKK LED toggle switches. I specifically asked for a progressive on toggle and they simply don't make them. Darn. I don't have the switches with me at the moment, but I believe you have to power them with 5v. Not a problem if you're running PLC's on your ship, but who wants to set up a separate power bus just for switches? (OK, maybe *me* since they look so cool...) If you want photos of these switches, let me know. Regards, Kevin Kinney ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: Clay R <clayr_55(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
(I'm posting Greg's reply to the list for him) Bob is right and we do use the Analog Devices chip he describes. The chip does the ice point compensation as he describes also, and connects the low side of the thermocouple to ground to establish bias. If there is not a good ground path from the EFIS to the engine, current can flow along the braided shield of a grounded thermocouple causing offset errors. We specify floating (ungrounded) probes for the same reason EI does -- it avoids having conversations with builders about ground loops, and explaining why they should have bought Bob's book. -Greg Richter Blue Mountain Avionics __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
Subject: Regulator calibration
I have the B&C LR-3 12V regulator with the B&C 60 Amp alternator and the Odyssey PC-680 battery. First flight shows 13.4 volts on the charging system. My memory says that it should be more like 14.2 so tomorrow I am going to connect my DVM right up to the aft mounted battery and check actual charging voltage at the battery. Does anybody know the correct charging voltage for this battery? thanks, Scot P.S. - First flight on this aircraft, my F1 Rocket, was on Saturday. Amazing power!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: manual battery switch
> >Any thoughts on the suitability of this $13. manual battery switch. It's >light and cheap. Supposed to be good for 300 amps. >http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-41860 >thanks >Ken I've seen this switch . . . on some boats and airplanes. I think it will be fine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Wiring PTT button
> > I have one of the wooden stick grips purchased through Vans. The PTT > button has two tiny posts and my instructions say to wire across these > two posts. My wire to the PTT has is shielded. How is this connection > made? thanks for any help you might offer. Jack center conductor to one terminal, shield to other terminal. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html through step 5 on how to handle the shield pigtail. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Wiring for my LOM
> > >Hi Bob, > >I'm putting a LOM in my Glastar. The newer engines have the B & C >alternator. YEH! I have the wiring diagram for the LOM with a >generator. Should I combine the LOM diagram with some other diagram? or check figure Z-18 of http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Bob, Trampas, Clay Thanks for your responses to my questions about thermocouple and other sensor wiring. I ordered 25' of 20 ga stranded thermocouple wire from Omega.com this morning and this is what I will use to extend the wires from the EGT thermocouples on to the EFIS 37 pin connector. Just one last (I hope!) question: As I mentioned before, red and yellow marked solid wires off the sensor are terminated with male and female spade connectors, as are the solid extension wires that I have and have decided not to use. What is an acceptable splice between the solid wires off the sensor and the new multi-strand wire that I have on order? The spade connectors add a lot of bulk to the whole bunch of wires. They are crimped, not soldered. Can I replace them with crimped butt splices? Or do I need to go the silver solder route as you describe in your book, Bob? Also, Greg told me that the technician who told me that the thermocouple wire only has to go through the firewall doesn't work for Blue Mountain anymore. Thanks, Terry RV-8a BMA EFIS/one ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Regulator calibration
> > >I have the B&C LR-3 12V regulator with the B&C 60 Amp alternator and the >Odyssey PC-680 battery. First flight shows 13.4 volts on the charging >system. My memory says that it should be more like 14.2 so tomorrow I am >going to connect my DVM right up to the aft mounted battery and check >actual charging voltage at the battery. Does anybody know the correct >charging voltage for this battery? > >thanks, > >Scot > >P.S. - First flight on this aircraft, my F1 Rocket, was on >Saturday. Amazing power!!! First, check the voltage right at the regulator on terminal 3. This is the voltage that the regulator is trying to control. Then check voltage at the bus. If they are substantially different . . . there are some wiring/design issues to dope out. Terminal 3 should run no lower than .1 volt below bus voltage. After you're sure they're tracking, adjust the regulator for 14.2 at the bus. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: Scot Stambaugh <sstambaugh(at)qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Regulator calibration
Thanks Bob. Shouldn't I be concerned about the voltage at the battery? I don't want to cook it. scot > > > > > > > >I have the B&C LR-3 12V regulator with the B&C 60 Amp alternator and the > >Odyssey PC-680 battery. First flight shows 13.4 volts on the charging > >system. My memory says that it should be more like 14.2 so tomorrow I am > >going to connect my DVM right up to the aft mounted battery and check > >actual charging voltage at the battery. Does anybody know the correct > >charging voltage for this battery? > > > >thanks, > > > >Scot > > > >P.S. - First flight on this aircraft, my F1 Rocket, was on > >Saturday. Amazing power!!! > > First, check the voltage right at the regulator on terminal > 3. This is the voltage that the regulator is trying to control. > Then check voltage at the bus. If they are substantially > different . . . there are some wiring/design issues to > dope out. Terminal 3 should run no lower than .1 volt > below bus voltage. After you're sure they're tracking, > adjust the regulator for 14.2 at the bus. > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------- > ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) > ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ----------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Larry, What is the steady state current draw of each seat? Charlie Kuss > >My seat heater documentation call for a 10A fuse too. About 6A is the >max I've seen, just as they are turned on. That's 6A per seat, both >butt and back heaters. > >- >Larry Bowen >Larry(at)BowenAero.com >http://BowenAero.com > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net] >> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 5:01 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question >> >> >> --> >> >> 10A is the protection size . . . what's the REAL >> current? In any case, consider mounting your relays >> at the battery bus and put 10A fuses on the bus to >> power the heaters. Operate the relay controls through >> switches that get power from the main bus so that >> they power down during parked and alternator-out operations. >> >> Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "AI Nut" <ainut(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Terry, in case you didn't notice, you can't use the same type of "thermocouple wire" for both leads. The type of wire (metals) must match the metals on either side of the junction. AI Nut ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded sensor wires > > Bob, Trampas, Clay > > Thanks for your responses to my questions about thermocouple and other > sensor wiring. I ordered 25' of 20 ga stranded thermocouple wire from > Omega.com this morning and this is what I will use to extend the wires from > the EGT thermocouples on to the EFIS 37 pin connector. > > Just one last (I hope!) question: As I mentioned before, red and yellow > marked solid wires off the sensor are terminated with male and female spade > connectors, as are the solid extension wires that I have and have decided > not to use. What is an acceptable splice between the solid wires off the > sensor and the new multi-strand wire that I have on order? The spade > connectors add a lot of bulk to the whole bunch of wires. They are crimped, > not soldered. Can I replace them with crimped butt splices? Or do I need > to go the silver solder route as you describe in your book, Bob? > > Also, Greg told me that the technician who told me that the thermocouple > wire only has to go through the firewall doesn't work for Blue Mountain > anymore. > > Thanks, > > Terry > RV-8a BMA EFIS/one > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Regulator calibration
> > >Thanks Bob. Shouldn't I be concerned about the voltage at the battery? I >don't want to cook it. > >scot If your regulator voltage is the same as your bus voltage, there's no way the battery voltage is going to be any different. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: Seat Heater Question
Date: Jan 27, 2004
It varies. The "brain" powers back once the max temp is reached and only kicks in as needed to maintain temperature. I didn't do exhaustive testing on this aspect of it, but I saw it vary from 2-6A. - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Charlie Kuss [mailto:chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:12 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question > > > --> > > Larry, > What is the steady state current draw of each seat? > Charlie Kuss > > >--> > > > >My seat heater documentation call for a 10A fuse too. About > 6A is the > >max I've seen, just as they are turned on. That's 6A per seat, both > >butt and back heaters. > > > >- > >Larry Bowen > >Larry(at)BowenAero.com > >http://BowenAero.com > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net] > >> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 5:01 PM > >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question > >> > >> > >> --> > >> > >> 10A is the protection size . . . what's the REAL > >> current? In any case, consider mounting your relays > >> at the battery bus and put 10A fuses on the bus to > >> power the heaters. Operate the relay controls through > >> switches that get power from the main bus so that > >> they power down during parked and alternator-out operations. > >> > >> Bob . . . > > > > > > > ============ > Matronics Forums. > ============ > ============ > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm > Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search > ============ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
> >Bob, Trampas, Clay > >Thanks for your responses to my questions about thermocouple and other >sensor wiring. I ordered 25' of 20 ga stranded thermocouple wire from >Omega.com this morning and this is what I will use to extend the wires from >the EGT thermocouples on to the EFIS 37 pin connector. > >Just one last (I hope!) question: As I mentioned before, red and yellow >marked solid wires off the sensor are terminated with male and female spade >connectors, as are the solid extension wires that I have and have decided >not to use. What is an acceptable splice between the solid wires off the >sensor and the new multi-strand wire that I have on order? The spade >connectors add a lot of bulk to the whole bunch of wires. They are crimped, >not soldered. Can I replace them with crimped butt splices? Or do I need >to go the silver solder route as you describe in your book, Bob? Your option. Butt splices work pretty well. Further, if you've got a good solder (Kester Resin 44 63/37) and a hot iron, you can get a good soldered joint on thermocouple wire with tin-lead solder. Another option: A few months ago I did some work on pitot heaters for Beechjet and needed to cut a bundle of t/c wire for rerouting. I didn't have a PIDG tool in my toolbox but DID have some machined d-sub pins. I really like the way the 4-quadrant crimp grabs the relatively hard t/c wire. So, I crimped d-sub pins on staggered joints like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/TC_Splice/thermosplice1.jpg soldered the d-sub pins together like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/TC_Splice/thermosplice2.jpg and covered the joints up with heat shrink thusly: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/TC_Splice/thermosplice3.jpg Shazzam! Nice, compact splices. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> toggle switches
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK LED
toggle switches toggle switches Kenny, Like Bob, I checked out the specs on these switches. Your choices are rather limited. They only come in 3 amp & 6 amp ratings. They only come with solder on connections. As Bob said, no 2-10 style available. I would suggest that you check out Carling Technologies LT series of lighted toggle switches at: http://toggle-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-toggle-switch__48.asp & http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf Carling is the manufacturer of the switches sold by B&C Specialties. The LT series comes available with 5 different lighting colors and comes in a wide variety of switch styles. They have switches rated up to 15 amps as well. They are also available with 1/4" fast on terminals (as recommended by Bob). I've checked with my local distributor. He can get any of these switches, but there is a 10 unit minimum for EACH part number ordered. I believe there is also a quantity price break available. I was wondering if anyone would be interested in getting together a group purchase of these? I could co-ordinate the purchase. We would probably need at least 8 builders to be able to meet the minimum for the 2-10 style (master/alternator) switches. With a few more folks, we could probably have enough to get a quantity price break on the more common (1-3, 2-1, 2-2 & 2-3) switches and save some money. Anyone interested? Charlie Kuss RV-8A > > >I've got a few of the NKK LED toggle switches. I specifically asked for a progressive on toggle and they simply don't make them. Darn. > >I don't have the switches with me at the moment, but I believe you have to power them with 5v. Not a problem if you're running PLC's on your ship, but who wants to set up a separate power bus just for switches? >(OK, maybe *me* since they look so cool...) > >If you want photos of these switches, let me know. > >Regards, >Kevin Kinney > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 27, 2004
Excellent! I can do that, and it will be a lot less bulky than the other way. I just happen to have the right crimper, since I won it as a door prize from you at Fort Worth last February. Thanks Bob! > >Just one last (I hope!) question: As I mentioned before, red and yellow >marked solid wires off the sensor are terminated with male and female spade >connectors, as are the solid extension wires that I have and have decided >not to use. What is an acceptable splice between the solid wires off the >sensor and the new multi-strand wire that I have on order? The spade >connectors add a lot of bulk to the whole bunch of wires. They are crimped, >not soldered. Can I replace them with crimped butt splices? Or do I need >to go the silver solder route as you describe in your book, Bob? Your option. Butt splices work pretty well. Further, if you've got a good solder (Kester Resin 44 63/37) and a hot iron, you can get a good soldered joint on thermocouple wire with tin-lead solder. Another option: A few months ago I did some work on pitot heaters for Beechjet and needed to cut a bundle of t/c wire for rerouting. I didn't have a PIDG tool in my toolbox but DID have some machined d-sub pins. I really like the way the 4-quadrant crimp grabs the relatively hard t/c wire. So, I crimped d-sub pins on staggered joints like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/TC_Splice/thermosplice1.jpg soldered the d-sub pins together like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/TC_Splice/thermosplice2.jpg and covered the joints up with heat shrink thusly: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/TC_Splice/thermosplice3.jpg Shazzam! Nice, compact splices. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au>
Subject: Fig Z-16 Rotax 912/914 System
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Bob et.al. I feel deprived not being able to attend one of your seminars owing to where I live. I am therefore grateful for the opportunity to tap into the combined wisdom available on this list. In my endeavour to more fully understand the principles being applied and to try to gain more confidence in my ability to interpret the diagrams, I would be most obliged if you or others could help me with the following queries - ALL in respect of Fig Z-16 Rotax 912/914 System. I have a plain vanilla Rotax 912 engine and a Europa aircraft (composite) with no bells or whistles and will be flying only day VFR. My queries 1 Reason for the fusible link in series with the 5A CB in the line from the main bus to terminal 5 on S1, Master Switch? 2 Reason for the fusible link as opposed to an inline fuse in series with the Alternator Warn light? 3 As I see the Alt Warn light in this circuit, the warning it provides is that the alternator is "off line" rather than that it is not charging. If I also connect another warning light between terminal 4 of the Master Switch and terminal "L" on the regulator (or "L" and "C" on the regulator), will this light illuminate when the engine is not running with the Master Sw turned fully on and extinguish as the alternator voltage rises after start-up? I realise these questions are very basic but there is a very good reason for this!! Thanks in anticipation. Kingsley Hurst Europa Classic 281 in Oz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches
Charlie, These look totally cool. I have not given this a lot of thought, but how would you used the colors in your airplane? I can see a lot of possibilities that could reduce workload and increase safety. Thanks, Mickey >http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf > >Carling is the manufacturer of the switches sold by B&C Specialties. The LT series comes available with 5 different lighting colors and comes in a wide variety of switch styles. They have switches rated up to 15 amps as well. They are also available with 1/4" fast on terminals (as recommended by -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Fw: RV-7 wing tip COM antenna installation
Date: Jan 28, 2004
I just sent this message to Bob Archer, but I figure I should fwd it to the aeroelectric-list to see what the community feedback is... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> Subject: RV-7 wing tip COM antenna installation Bob, I purchased wing tip VOR & COM antennas from you last year, and I'm finally getting around to installing them. The VOR antenna installation is a no-brainer thanks to your instructions. The COM antenna, however, is a little trickier due to the shape of the RV-7 wing tips (sheared, with built-in lighting provision). Here is a web page with photos to illustrate my issues: http://www.rvproject.com/archer.html 1) Can the antenna be somewhat tightly arched and still perform well? Bending it in an arch would improve its vertical profile, if that's acceptable. 2) Can the antenna be grounded with a wire instead of directly contacting the airframe? I'd like to mount it a few inches outboard from the wing tip opening, and I assume I would need to use a ground jumper wire? 3) Do the strobe/position wires absolutely need to route along the antenna's leading edge even if they otherwise would not CROSS the antenna? Mine can run several inches ahead of the antenna, not crossing it. Please let me know if you need more photos or explanation of my issues. Thanks very much! )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jakent(at)unison.ie
Subject: Rochester cht sender.
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Bob & all, I have a Rochester gauge cluster out of a Robinson R-22 that is going in my RV-4. I have no matching cht sender. I will be using an engine monitor with bayonet senders, but want the Rochester as a back-up with a spark plug ring type sender. Does any-one know whether I will need a J-type or K-type, or other kind of thermocouple sender ? Thanks ... John Kent. (RV-4#3254, Ireland). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Terry, The thermocouple wire can be connected with crimped butt splices. However note that in my opinion, which should be taken with a grain of salt, soldering and heat shrink makes better connections. Regards, Trampas Stern -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded sensor wires Bob, Trampas, Clay Thanks for your responses to my questions about thermocouple and other sensor wiring. I ordered 25' of 20 ga stranded thermocouple wire from Omega.com this morning and this is what I will use to extend the wires from the EGT thermocouples on to the EFIS 37 pin connector. Just one last (I hope!) question: As I mentioned before, red and yellow marked solid wires off the sensor are terminated with male and female spade connectors, as are the solid extension wires that I have and have decided not to use. What is an acceptable splice between the solid wires off the sensor and the new multi-strand wire that I have on order? The spade connectors add a lot of bulk to the whole bunch of wires. They are crimped, not soldered. Can I replace them with crimped butt splices? Or do I need to go the silver solder route as you describe in your book, Bob? Also, Greg told me that the technician who told me that the thermocouple wire only has to go through the firewall doesn't work for Blue Mountain anymore. Thanks, Terry RV-8a BMA EFIS/one ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches
Fernandez , "Fabian Lefler": ; <6.0.1.1.2.20040128070257.0277e008(at)127.0.0.1> Mickey, I've been pondering that question myself. Perhaps those interested could discuss this. With night flying in mind, would you prefer to have the tip of the bat handle lighted or dark when the switch is off? These switches can display 2 or even 3 (for double throw models) different colors to show the position of the switch in a darkened cockpit. You could have the switches illuminate only when the circuit is energized OR you could use some sort of color standard to identify when the switch is off or on. As an example a simple 1-2 (on/off) switch could be lit as follows: OFF red ON green For a 3 position switch (say a taxi/landing light switch) you could do the following: OFF red TAXI green LANDING/TAXI blue This would allow you to know the condition of any switched circuit merely by the identifying color. You could leave the switches illuminated at all times (these are LEDs, so should last a LONG time). You could also control them through a lighting circuit, so that they would illuminate only during night flight. Any alternate ideas will be appreciated. One thing I should point out to anyone interested. The base of these switches is wider than a standard toggle switch. If your panel or console real estate for switches is severely limited, these may not be the best choice, as they can not be spaced as closely together. Personally, I prefer to space switches a bit farther apart than the absolute minimum. I have big hands and prefer a wider spacing to prevent possible activation of 2 switches when I only intend to hit one. This is even more important if you are trying to activate a switch in turbulence. For those interested, I can email a list of switches I'm considering using for my 8A project. This might give you an starting point for the items you would want for your project. Charlie >Charlie, > >These look totally cool. I have not given this a lot of >thought, but how would you used the colors in your airplane? >I can see a lot of possibilities that could reduce workload >and increase safety. > >Thanks, >Mickey > > >>http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf >> >>Carling is the manufacturer of the switches sold by B&C Specialties. The LT series comes available with 5 different lighting colors and comes in a wide variety of switch styles. They have switches rated up to 15 amps as well. They are also available with 1/4" fast on terminals (as recommended by -- > >Mickey Coggins >http://www.rv8.ch/ >#82007 Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Rochester cht sender.
> >Bob & all, I have a Rochester gauge cluster out of a Robinson R-22 that is >going in my RV-4. I have no matching cht sender. I will be using an engine >monitor with bayonet senders, but want the Rochester as a back-up with a >spark plug ring type sender. Does any-one know whether I will need a >J-type or K-type, or other kind of thermocouple sender ? >Thanks ... John Kent. (RV-4#3254, Ireland). I've never seen a Rochester CHT that used thermocouples. They MAY exist but the only one's I've seen were resistive sensor elements that operate quite differently than the thermocouple you propose to use. Have you mounted this cluster yet? Compared to today's technology, adding that instrument to your airplane is like hanging a carbine lamp on the fender of your car. I'm wondering about your concerns for "backup" on engine gages. Likelihood of really NEEDING any information that cluster presents is predicated on failure of your electronic monitor. The only time you would need backup is if there has been a SECOND failure in the time frame of when the electronic system craps until you can make comfortable arrival. Probability of this is VERY low . . . like on the order of one occurrence per 100,000 flight hours. I'll suggest trashing that gage cluster. If you really, Really, REALLY gotta have it. Then the 100% successful way to incorporate it is to find out what Rochester part goes in the cylinder head and acquiring it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> installation
Subject: Re: Fw: RV-7 wing tip COM antenna
installation installation > >I just sent this message to Bob Archer, but I figure I should fwd it to the >aeroelectric-list to see what the community feedback is... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> >To: "Bob Archer" >Subject: RV-7 wing tip COM antenna installation > >Bob, > >I purchased wing tip VOR & COM antennas from you last year, and I'm finally >getting around to installing them. The VOR antenna installation is a >no-brainer thanks to your instructions. The COM antenna, however, is a >little trickier due to the shape of the RV-7 wing tips (sheared, with >built-in lighting provision). > >Here is a web page with photos to illustrate my issues: > >http://www.rvproject.com/archer.html > >1) Can the antenna be somewhat tightly arched and still perform well? >Bending it in an arch would improve its vertical profile, if that's >acceptable. yes >2) Can the antenna be grounded with a wire instead of directly contacting >the airframe? I'd like to mount it a few inches outboard from the wing tip >opening, and I assume I would need to use a ground jumper wire? This has the risk of greatly altering performance. Attach as recommended by manufacturer. That "ground" is part of the antenna's tuning. Any changes, PARTICULARLY in grounding will upset the matching section that most strongly affects SWR. >3) Do the strobe/position wires absolutely need to route along the antenna's >leading edge even if they otherwise would not CROSS the antenna? Mine can >run several inches ahead of the antenna, not crossing it. fine >Please let me know if you need more photos or explanation of my issues. >Thanks very much! It will be interesting to see what Mr. Archer has to say. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Shielded sensor wires
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com>
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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
(ax) Allied Electronics (800) 433 5700, www.alliedelec.com has these terminals and they sell them in quantities of 100. They have 45 deg and 90 deg single, ~$7 per 100, cat # 839-3297, and # 839-3300. Also, they have 45 and 90 deg dual terminals $8-$10 per 100,. cat # 839-3306, and many others. Jerzy >> >>Hi All............. >> >> >>1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine side of >>the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. >>Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side grounds. >>I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no >>retail. >>Any Leads? >> >> > > Those are hard to come by in small quantities. We've > spent a lot of time getting those strips in 10,000 > part reels. This was one of the big drivers for bringing > that product to the marketplace. Occasionally, I've > run across dual fast-on males that attach with a screw. > These could be pop-riveted to a piece of brass and then > soldered. > > I suspect the total $time$ spent may exceed the cost > of another block from B&C . . . > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Wallace Enga <wenga(at)svtv.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator - Thermocouples
> > >By the 3rd start, I noticed that when I turned the alt >field on, the voltage no longer went up to 13.5, but >stayed right at 12v. However, the EGTs did continue >to jump when the alt switch was on, but were steady >with it off. (what is the significance of this?) > >Does anyone know where this is going yet? > >I took the alternator off the plane, and took it to an >auto parts store to be checked. They said it failed >the tests. > >(I wish I would have run the tests mentioned in the >connection first, but didn't have it with me at the >time) > >After talking to Vans, they said I probably blew the >voltage regulator by switching off the field that >disconnected the B-lead at the contactor. Switching >off field after it has started doesn't stop the >alternator because it gets field power from the >B-lead. They said they've been seeing this a lot >lately on alternators wired per z-24. > >Would it be an accurate statement to say that: >"Turning off the alt field after it has been turned on >for an internally regulated alternator wired as >depicted in Z-24 is a death sentence for the >alternator. An overvolt condition will also open the >contactor and finish off the alternator for good." > >If so, this might be a handy piece of information to >add to that diagram because it would have saved me >some trouble. > > >Thanks, >Clay > > >__________________________________ I haven't seen any reply or further info on Clay's Alternator problem. I am very interested, as I am using the same overvoltage protection method on a Nippondenso Alternator with a built in internal voltage regulator. Why would "opening up the alternators output" with it running, blow the voltage regulator? Bob, anyone? Thanks, Wally ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK LED toggle
switches
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Charlie - We would be interested in a half dozen of the 2-10's and another half dozen 1-3's. Any idea as to the cost? I assume that each color combination would be a separate order for the minimum of 10; as would be a ring vs. push-on terminal and toggle styles. Might get kinda messy to accomodate too many choices. BTW, which "circuit" as listed in the catalog PDF file is the 2-10? As a preference we would like: 6x 2-10's, .25 tab (QC), clear paddle, red-clear-green, 12 volt. The hardest to reconcile may be the toggle style and the lighting sequence. Another downside may be the current draw of the light. If it is an LED, no problem. Cheers, John Schroeder > http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf > I've checked with my local distributor. He can get any of these > switches, but there is a 10 unit minimum for EACH part number ordered. I > believe there is also a quantity price break available. I was wondering > if anyone would be interested in getting together a group purchase of > these? I could co-ordinate the purchase. We would probably need at least > 8 builders to be able to meet the minimum for the 2-10 style > (master/alternator) switches. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lyle Peterson" <lyleap(at)access4less.net>
Subject: Re: NKK LED toggle switches
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Kevin, I am puzzled. What kind of switch are you referring to as 'progressive on toggle'? I have never heard that used with regard to switches. Lyle -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kkinney(at)fuse.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: NKK LED toggle switches I've got a few of the NKK LED toggle switches. I specifically asked for a progressive on toggle and they simply don't make them. Darn. I don't have the switches with me at the moment, but I believe you have to power them with 5v. Not a problem if you're running PLC's on your ship, but who wants to set up a separate power bus just for switches? (OK, maybe *me* since they look so cool...) If you want photos of these switches, let me know. Regards, Kevin Kinney == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lyle Peterson" <lyleap(at)access4less.net>
Subject: Rochester cht sender.
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Bob, I haven't posted anything here. Just been lurking and learning. I had to comment on the "carbine" lamp. I think those were "carbide" lamps. They generated acetylene to burn for light. Is my foggy recollection right? Lyle Peterson Have you mounted this cluster yet? Compared to today's technology, adding that instrument to your airplane is like hanging a carbine lamp on the fender of your car. I'm wondering about your concerns for "backup" on engine gages. Likelihood of really NEEDING any ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Jerry, Thanks for the information. I really like the multiple unit that has 10 fast on tabs Allied Stock #: 839-3310. Unfortunately I do not need 100 of these babies, maybe 4 or 5 of them would do the trick. Anyone interested in a group purchase? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Jerzy Krasinski [mailto:krasinski(at)direcway.com] To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com.Gecko/20030624.Netscape/7.1.HTML_TITLE_E MPTY Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks Allied Electronics (800) 433 5700, www.alliedelec.com has these terminals and they sell them in quantities of 100. They have 45 deg and 90 deg single, ~$7 per 100, cat # 839-3297, and # 839-3300. Also, they have 45 and 90 deg dual terminals $8-$10 per 100,. cat # 839-3306, and many others. Jerzy >> >>Hi All............. >> >> >>1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine side of >>the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. >>Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side grounds. >>I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no >>retail. >>Any Leads? >> >> > > Those are hard to come by in small quantities. We've > spent a lot of time getting those strips in 10,000 > part reels. This was one of the big drivers for bringing > that product to the marketplace. Occasionally, I've > run across dual fast-on males that attach with a screw. > These could be pop-riveted to a piece of brass and then > soldered. > > I suspect the total $time$ spent may exceed the cost > of another block from B&C . . . > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
From: Bob Bittner <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2004
01/28/2004 10:33:19 AM, Serialize complete at 01/28/2004 10:33:19 AM I bought a bag of 100 dual-tab fast-ons for something like $6 from mouser. I bought some brass from the HW store for $2 and solder paste for another few $, Assemble with solder paste, hit the bottom with a torch, and it's done. Worked pretty well for me, I got just the sizes I wanted (a few extra, of course!) and I used half of the above costs. Good Luck Bob B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: NKK LED toggle switches
Lyle, I believe that Kevin was referring to a double throw switch. Charlie Kuss > >Kevin, > >I am puzzled. What kind of switch are you referring to as 'progressive >on toggle'? I have never heard that used with regard to switches. > >Lyle > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >kkinney(at)fuse.net >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: NKK LED toggle switches > > >I've got a few of the NKK LED toggle switches. I specifically asked for >a progressive on toggle and they simply don't make them. Darn. > >I don't have the switches with me at the moment, but I believe you have >to power them with 5v. Not a problem if you're running PLC's on your >ship, but who wants to set up a separate power bus just for switches? >(OK, maybe *me* since they look so cool...) > >If you want photos of these switches, let me know. > >Regards, >Kevin Kinney > > >== >== >== >== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK LED toggle
I'd get a sample of the Carlingswitch LT switch before commiting to using them. Although in general I like Carlingswitch stuff, I wouldn't use this switch in my plane. It has a plastic body, plastic bushing, and plastic handle. Some guys in our lab have used them for power switches on test boxes, etc. and the handle has broken off of a few. In my opinion that would be a real bad thing to have happen in a plane. Bent I can live with, but not broken off at the base. Mike __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Subject: Re: Wiring PTT button
From: Kent Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Bob, these are great explanations and very helpful. You should get some kind of special acknowledgement for your work supporting homebuilders. --Kent A. > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> > center conductor to one terminal, shield to other > terminal. See > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
James Streit
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> toggle switches
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK LED
toggle switches toggle switches Hi John, You are correct. According to the chart, the 2-10 (On-On-On) is not shown. The folks at Carling are willing to tool up for requests however. I'll have to check on minimum quantities for something of that nature. The price I was quoted for the 10 unit minimum of either 1-2 or 1-3 switches was about $9 (I checked several months ago) I'll contact the distributor again once I have a better feel for what folks are interested in. I realized at the beginning that there are so many variables it could get "sticky" as you say. That's why I asked for a discussion; to try to form a consensus. I am leaning more toward the bat (aka Snapkap in the Carling Catalog) style handles as I feel that they would be more durable. Past experience with plastic paddles has not been that they can be somewhat fragile. The clear paddle handles will glow more brightly, as the entire paddle will light up. The bat handles only glow on the tip, as the LED (yes, they are LEDs) is mounted there. The paddles are perhaps nicer cosmetically. I think the bat handles (available in satin chrome, bright chrome & black) would be sturdier. I also feel that the paddle levers may emit to much light and be a distraction at night. This isn't a deal breaker issue for me. I could live with paddle levers if that is what most people want. I think all of us will want 12 volt models. Your choice of colors seems to be the most logical of the choices available for a master/alternator switch. The part number should look like this then: LT-25(digit to be determined for 2-10)1-13-12 This breaks down as a double pole (2) 15 amp (5) 2-10 style switch (TBD) clear paddle (1) red-clear-green (13) 12 volt (12) See below for explanation of the part numbering system http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf I'll email Carling regarding making the 2-10 stye switches. Charlie > >Charlie - > >We would be interested in a half dozen of the 2-10's and another half >dozen 1-3's. Any idea as to the cost? > >I assume that each color combination would be a separate order for the >minimum of 10; as would be a ring vs. push-on terminal and toggle styles. >Might get kinda messy to accomodate too many choices. > >BTW, which "circuit" as listed in the catalog PDF file is the 2-10? > >As a preference we would like: 6x 2-10's, .25 tab (QC), clear paddle, >red-clear-green, 12 volt. > >The hardest to reconcile may be the toggle style and the lighting >sequence. Another downside may be the current draw of the light. If it is >an LED, no problem. > >Cheers, > >John Schroeder > >> http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf > >> I've checked with my local distributor. He can get any of these >> switches, but there is a 10 unit minimum for EACH part number ordered. I >> believe there is also a quantity price break available. I was wondering >> if anyone would be interested in getting together a group purchase of >> these? I could co-ordinate the purchase. We would probably need at least >> 8 builders to be able to meet the minimum for the 2-10 style >> (master/alternator) switches. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
These parts are made by Keystone Electronics (http://www.keyelco.com/) and are sold by both Digikey (http://www.digikey.com) and Mouser Electronics (http://www.mouser.com) both of whose prices are lower than Allied. Mouser has no minimum order. Digikey has a $25 minimum order. Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573 Jerzy Krasinski wrote: > > >Allied Electronics (800) 433 5700, www.alliedelec.com has these >terminals and they sell them in quantities of 100. >They have 45 deg and 90 deg single, ~$7 per 100, cat # 839-3297, and # >839-3300. >Also, they have 45 and 90 deg dual terminals $8-$10 per 100,. cat # >839-3306, and many others. >Jerzy > > > >>> >>>Hi All............. >>> >>> >>>1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine side of >>>the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. >>>Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side grounds. >>>I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no >>>retail. >>>Any Leads? >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Those are hard to come by in small quantities. We've >> spent a lot of time getting those strips in 10,000 >> part reels. This was one of the big drivers for bringing >> that product to the marketplace. Occasionally, I've >> run across dual fast-on males that attach with a screw. >> These could be pop-riveted to a piece of brass and then >> soldered. >> >> I suspect the total $time$ spent may exceed the cost >> of another block from B&C . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Jerry - No, but I can trade you some 5/16" brass nuts and copper lock washers. We had to buy a box of each. You can buy single studs from McMaster-Carr, but not the nuts and washers!!! Cheers, John wrote: > > > Jerry, > > Thanks for the information. I really like the multiple unit that has 10 > fast on tabs Allied Stock #: 839-3310. Unfortunately I do not need 100 > of > these babies, maybe 4 or 5 of them would do the trick. Anyone > interested in > a group purchase? > > Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerzy Krasinski [mailto:krasinski(at)direcway.com] > To: > aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com.Gecko/20030624.Netscape/7.1.HTML_TITLE_E > MPTY > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks > > > > > > Allied Electronics (800) 433 5700, www.alliedelec.com has these > terminals and they sell them in quantities of 100. > They have 45 deg and 90 deg single, ~$7 per 100, cat # 839-3297, and # > 839-3300. > Also, they have 45 and 90 deg dual terminals $8-$10 per 100,. cat # > 839-3306, and many others. > Jerzy > > >>> >>> Hi All............. >>> >>> >>> 1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine >>> side > of >>> the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. >>> Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side >>> grounds. >>> I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no >>> retail. >>> Any Leads? >>> >>> >> >> Those are hard to come by in small quantities. We've >> spent a lot of time getting those strips in 10,000 >> part reels. This was one of the big drivers for bringing >> that product to the marketplace. Occasionally, I've >> run across dual fast-on males that attach with a screw. >> These could be pop-riveted to a piece of brass and then >> soldered. >> >> I suspect the total $time$ spent may exceed the cost >> of another block from B&C . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks
I would be interested in some of them. But see my other email regarding other sources. Dick Tasker Letempt, Jeffrey CW4 wrote: > >Jerry, > >Thanks for the information. I really like the multiple unit that has 10 >fast on tabs Allied Stock #: 839-3310. Unfortunately I do not need 100 of >these babies, maybe 4 or 5 of them would do the trick. Anyone interested in >a group purchase? > >Jeff > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerzy Krasinski [mailto:krasinski(at)direcway.com] >To: >aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com.Gecko/20030624.Netscape/7.1.HTML_TITLE_E >MPTY >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Searching-Fast on's / Terminal Blocks > > > > > >Allied Electronics (800) 433 5700, www.alliedelec.com has these >terminals and they sell them in quantities of 100. >They have 45 deg and 90 deg single, ~$7 per 100, cat # 839-3297, and # >839-3300. >Also, they have 45 and 90 deg dual terminals $8-$10 per 100,. cat # >839-3306, and many others. >Jerzy > > > >>> >>> > > > >>>Hi All............. >>> >>> >>>1. A short strip of male quick connect fast on's to go on the engine side >>> >>> >of > > >>>the firewall to complement the 24 terminal ground block from B & C. >>>Another 24 block is $26 a little steep for just a few engine side grounds. >>>I have done a bunch of Google searches and found a manufacturer but no >>>retail. >>>Any Leads? >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Those are hard to come by in small quantities. We've >> spent a lot of time getting those strips in 10,000 >> part reels. This was one of the big drivers for bringing >> that product to the marketplace. Occasionally, I've >> run across dual fast-on males that attach with a screw. >> These could be pop-riveted to a piece of brass and then >> soldered. >> >> I suspect the total $time$ spent may exceed the cost >> of another block from B&C . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss(at)bellsouth.net> LED toggle
Subject: Re: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK
LED toggle LED toggle Mike Thanks for the real world info. Could you find out if the switches they used were paddle or bat style levers? I've had problems with paddle style switches myself. I can get a sample at the local Boat Owners Warehouse near me. They market these same Carling Switches. They are re boxed under another name by a marine electrical parts vendor. I'll get one this afternoon. Charlie Charlie Kuss > >I'd get a sample of the Carlingswitch LT switch before >commiting to using them. Although in general I like >Carlingswitch stuff, I wouldn't use this switch in my >plane. It has a plastic body, plastic bushing, and >plastic handle. Some guys in our lab have used them >for power switches on test boxes, etc. and the handle >has broken off of a few. In my opinion that would be >a real bad thing to have happen in a plane. Bent I >can live with, but not broken off at the base. > >Mike > >__________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: GNC-300XL
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Does anyone know where I can get an installation manual for a GNC-300XL? I have checked Garmin's web site but they only list a user's manual for the 300XL. The web site has an installation manual for the 250XL. I need to make up a harness and I don't know if the pin outs are the same. The user's manual does not list pin outs. Vince Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches
Another option if you guys are looking for the ultimate in "cool" is to forget about lighted switches and go for a backlit switch panel, professionally manufactured from your drawings by a company that does flight simulator cockpits. Check out the stuff you can get at www.AircraftSimulators.com I just had 2 switch panels made up that you can see at http://www.myglasscockpit.com/SwitchPanelLeft.jpg and http://www.myglasscockpit.com/SwitchPanelCenter.jpg They can either supply the switches or supply the bare acrylic panel and you provide your own switches. Dave Morris > > >Charlie, > >These look totally cool. I have not given this a lot of >thought, but how would you used the colors in your airplane? >I can see a lot of possibilities that could reduce workload >and increase safety. > >Thanks, >Mickey > > > >http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf > > > >Carling is the manufacturer of the switches sold by B&C Specialties. The > LT series comes available with 5 different lighting colors and comes in a > wide variety of switch styles. They have switches rated up to 15 amps as > well. They are also available with 1/4" fast on terminals (as recommended by -- > >Mickey Coggins >http://www.rv8.ch/ >#82007 Wings > > Dave Morris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ageless Wings" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: GNC-300XL
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Vince... I went to Yahoo, typed in the model number and "installation manual" and this was the first page that came up: http://www.mcico.com/pdf/7019813%20MD41-144X.pdf Pages 5 and 6 appear to be the pinout. Harley Long EZ N28EZ... in the hanger, getting sanded and primed! Harley Dixon Website: www.AgelessWings.com <http://www.AgelessWings.com/> Email: harley(at)agelesswings.com Henrietta, NY USA |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of |Vincent Welch |Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 12:24 PM |To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com |Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNC-300XL | | | | |Does anyone know where I can get an installation manual for a |GNC-300XL? I |have checked Garmin's web site but they only list a user's manual for the |300XL. The web site has an installation manual for the 250XL. I need to |make up a harness and I don't know if the pin outs are the same. |The user's |manual does not list pin outs. | |Vince Welch | | | | | | | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
From: flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK LED toggle
The broken ones were paddle style, but I believe both styles are translucent plastic (light pipes). I think there is a metal sleeve option for the bat style, but it is just a sleeve (I think). Mike __________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lighted Toggle Switches was NKK LED toggle
switches
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Hi Charley - After reading the critique on the plastic paddle switches, I'd definiitely prefer the bat snap kap handles - color "mox nix". Thanks for taking the effort to work this issue. Cheers, John wrote: > toggle switches > > Hi John, > You are correct. According to the chart, the 2-10 (On-On-On) is not > shown. The folks at Carling are willing to tool up for requests however. > I'll have to check on minimum quantities for something of that nature. > The price I was quoted for the 10 unit minimum of either 1-2 or 1-3 > switches was about $9 (I checked several months ago) I'll contact the > distributor again once I have a better feel for what folks are > interested in. > I realized at the beginning that there are so many variables it could > get "sticky" as you say. That's why I asked for a discussion; to try to > form a consensus. > I am leaning more toward the bat (aka Snapkap in the Carling Catalog) > style handles as I feel that they would be more durable. Past experience > with plastic paddles has not been that they can be somewhat fragile. > The clear paddle handles will glow more brightly, as the entire paddle > will light up. The bat handles only glow on the tip, as the LED (yes, > they are LEDs) is mounted there. The paddles are perhaps nicer > cosmetically. I think the bat handles (available in satin chrome, bright > chrome & black) would be sturdier. I also feel that the paddle levers > may emit to much light and be a distraction at night. > This isn't a deal breaker issue for me. I could live with paddle levers > if that is what most people want. > I think all of us will want 12 volt models. Your choice of colors seems > to be the most logical of the choices available for a master/alternator > switch. The part number should look like this then: > > LT-25(digit to be determined for 2-10)1-13-12 > > This breaks down as a double pole (2) 15 amp (5) 2-10 style switch (TBD) > clear paddle (1) red-clear-green (13) 12 volt (12) > > See below for explanation of the part numbering system > http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf > > I'll email Carling regarding making the 2-10 stye switches. > > Charlie > > >> >> >> Charlie - >> >> We would be interested in a half dozen of the 2-10's and another half >> dozen 1-3's. Any idea as to the cost? >> >> I assume that each color combination would be a separate order for the >> minimum of 10; as would be a ring vs. push-on terminal and toggle >> styles. >> Might get kinda messy to accomodate too many choices. >> >> BTW, which "circuit" as listed in the catalog PDF file is the 2-10? >> >> As a preference we would like: 6x 2-10's, .25 tab (QC), clear paddle, >> red-clear-green, 12 volt. >> >> The hardest to reconcile may be the toggle style and the lighting >> sequence. Another downside may be the current draw of the light. If it >> is >> an LED, no problem. >> >> Cheers, >> >> John Schroeder >> >>> http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_lt.pdf >> >>> I've checked with my local distributor. He can get any of these >>> switches, but there is a 10 unit minimum for EACH part number ordered. >>> I >>> believe there is also a quantity price break available. I was wondering >>> if anyone would be interested in getting together a group purchase of >>> these? I could co-ordinate the purchase. We would probably need at >>> least >>> 8 builders to be able to meet the minimum for the 2-10 style >>> (master/alternator) switches. >> >> > > -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Subject: Starter Engaged Light
From: John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Bob Nuckolls - On Z-14, where is the best place to take power for a "Starter Engaged" annunciator light? Many Thanks, John Schroeder Lancair ES - Batteries in the rear of the aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vincent Welch" <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: GNC-300XL
Date: Jan 28, 2004
Thanks for the info, BUT, that appears to be the installation manual for the Mid-Continent ACU that is used with the GNC-300XL. Vince >From: "Ageless Wings" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: , >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GNC-300XL >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:59:18 -0500 > > > >Vince... > >I went to Yahoo, typed in the model number and "installation manual" and >this was the first page that came up: > >http://www.mcico.com/pdf/7019813%20MD41-144X.pdf > >Pages 5 and 6 appear to be the pinout. > >Harley > >Long EZ N28EZ... > >in the hanger, getting sanded and primed! > >Harley Dixon > >Website: www.AgelessWings.com <http://www.AgelessWings.com/> > >Email: harley(at)agelesswings.com > >Henrietta, NY > >USA > > >|-----Original Message----- >|From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >|[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of >|Vincent Welch >|Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 12:24 PM >|To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com >|Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNC-300XL >| >| >| >| >|Does anyone know where I can get an installation manual for a >|GNC-300XL? I >|have checked Garmin's web site but they only list a user's manual for the >|300XL. The web site has an installation manual for the 250XL. I need to >|make up a harness and I don't know if the pin outs are the same. >|The user's >|manual does not list pin outs. >| >|Vince Welch >| >| >| >| >| >| >| > > ________________________________________________________________________________


January 15, 2004 - January 28, 2004

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-cv