AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-da
March 17, 2004 - March 28, 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DWENSING(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Coax related |
In a message dated 3/17/04 8:43:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> RG-400 (stranded center conductor) or RG-142 (solid) would be an
> excellent
> substitute for RG-58 (WWII vintage stuff). These modern coaxes will
> present 20 db/hundred feet at DME frequencies so 10 feet will
> be 2.0 dB and 7.5 feet would be 1.5 dB. RG-58 would be about 26 dB
> per hundred so you couldn't make the 1.5 dB requirement in 6' of
> coax.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Bob, Related subject......How much loss will be experienced by putting
in a right angle BNC adapter at the antenna? I have RG-400 coax. Would you
discourage the use of the adapter?
Dale Ensing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Preflight check of SD-8? |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Kevin,
Good question. Comments below...
>
>
> I'm working on the checklists for my RV-8, and am wondering whether
> there are any potential issues around checking an SD-8 standby
> alternator right after engine start. I was considering starting the
> engine, then selecting the SD-8 ON to confirm a voltage rise, then
> selecting the SD-8 OFF and selecting the main alternator ON.
>
I think checking the SD-8 at start up will work just fine
> Will the SD-8 have enough output to bring the voltage up even though
> the battery needs to be recharged?
Once the starter load is removed from the battery, it won't take much
current capacity to recover the battery voltage. Turning the SD-8 will
definitely bring the battery voltage above the required charging value.
Are there any concerns about load
> dump issues when I select the SD-8 OFF while it is trying to charge the
I don't think any of the PM alternators are cause for concern with regard
to battery dump. Partly because they don't have enough snort to worry
about it, and partly because the regulators don't use field current to
control output.
> battery? It seems like the only other opportunity to check the SD-8
> preflight would be to select the main alternator OFF during the runup,
> and check the SD-8 then. But that seems like it could trigger the load
> dump problems, unless the battery has been charged by then.
>
I agree. I don't think this is as good on option as the first one you
came up with, which I think poses zero risk to the system.
> I'll need the SD-8 as backup when I fly IFR, so I want a way to do a
> preflight check on it. What is the best way to do this?
I think you already have it.
> --
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Prop Stopped Best Glide |
Joel,
One of the aviation magazines, Flying, I think, had an article about 8 years
ago on the glide ratio with the prop spinning or stopped - the author did the
actual test flying - and the conclusion was that stopping the prop
significantly reduced aerodynamic drag and extended the glide. The author's opinion
was
that it was worthwhile to slow enough to stop the prop and then resume best
glide speed.
Stan Sutterfield
RV-8A
Tampa
In a message dated 3/17/04 2:56:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
<< Out of curiosity, has anyone compared the same speed sink rate, with
the prop stopped or windmilling?
Joel Harding >>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: annunciator lights |
Radio Shack has them also in various colors. Mount from the front with nut
on the back. Comes with resistor built in. Nice price too. I've got three
of them in my panel.
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp
TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak
JeffRose Flightline Interiors
Firewall Forward, Wiring
----- Original Message -----
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)ashcreekwireless.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: annunciator lights
>
> > The cost is insane, but other than these AML series, it's hard to find a
> > real pro looking annunciator.
>
> Electronics International (Bend, OR) has a nice looking LED annunciator
> light with a attractive chrome bezel, designed to be installed from the
> front of the panel with a nut on the backside.
>
> Cliff A&P/IA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand(at)crownequip.com>
> To:
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: annunciator lights
>
>
>
> >
> > I don't think you can get much of a deal on these lights; we bought ours
> > from a dealer in Canada for about $32 each. It generally doesn't make
> > much sense for the shipping, but if you are buying 10 or 16 of them, you
> > could save some money.
> >
> > The cost is insane, but other than these AML series, it's hard to find a
> > real pro looking annunciator.
> >
> > Jeff Hildebrand
> > Lancair ES C-GPSH
> > www.lancaires.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy
> > Scott
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: annunciator lights
> >
> >
> >
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > Where can I get a good deal on the Honeywell/Microswitch 45/59 series
> > solid-state (LED lit) annunciator lights like the ones Vision
> > MicroSystems
> > used to sell? Lancair Avionics has them, but they want $38 for the
> > annunciator/lens unit. That seems a little steep. I want 10 (maybe 16)
> > of
> > them. Here is a link to what I want:
> > http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/pki/catalog/aml45_59.pdf
> >
> > Also, If any of you have a suggestion for a good substitute, I'd like to
> > hear about it! I already know about the panels from Aircraft
> > Simulators.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Troy Scott
> > tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
> >
> >
> > ==
> > ==
> > ==
> > ==
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop Stopped Best Glide |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I have seen other articles that say this is true, but with some
caviats... One is that if the engine quits when close to the
ground, say on departure, the extended glide afforded by stopping
the prop is not likely to be very helpful compared to making
sure that you have appropriate airspeed at touchdown. Except
for preparing the airplane for the impending landing, NOTHING
should distract you from flying the airplane to the landing site. If
you burn up all of your airspeed getting the prop to stop, the
increased associated sink rate may make it impossible to get
the airplane to flair effectively.
So, say you're buzzing along at 5000' AGL, and the engine quits,
I might mess with trying to stop the prop once I had gone through
the restart measures. If I am at 500' AGL, and low airspeed (climb
out, pick a spot and fly to it. I'll make sure the fuel and master are
turned off, and that the canopy is unlatched. That will burn up much
of the altitude right there.
Back to work.
Matt-
N34RD
>
> Joel,
> One of the aviation magazines, Flying, I think, had an article about 8
> years ago on the glide ratio with the prop spinning or stopped - the
> author did the actual test flying - and the conclusion was that
> stopping the prop significantly reduced aerodynamic drag and extended
> the glide. The author's opinion was that it was worthwhile to slow
> enough to stop the prop and then resume best glide speed.
> Stan Sutterfield
> RV-8A
> Tampa
>
> In a message dated 3/17/04 2:56:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>
> << Out of curiosity, has anyone compared the same speed sink rate, with
>
> the prop stopped or windmilling?
>
> Joel Harding >>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
Matt-
N34RD
>
> Kevin,
>
> My electrical system is a modified "All Electric on a Budget" system. I
> check the SD-8 during runup since it does not come on line below about
> 1500 RPM. My procedure is SD-8 ON, Main Buss OFF then check voltage
> . If the SD-8 is on line the voltage will be about 14 volts, if not it
> will be about 12 volts or slightly less. At this point the load meter
> on my main alternator will go to "0". Then Main Buss ON and SD-8 Off.
> In 300 hours it has never failed during runup. It will not come on line
> at idle.
>
>
> I have be thinking about temporarily installing a temperature probe on
> my SD-8 regulator and going flying to get some empirical data on
> regulator/heat issue.
>
> Ken Harrill
> RV-6, 300 hours
> Columbia, SC
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
Matt,
As well as I recall, it does not come online at all until around 1500 RPM. I
don't remember if it subsequently goes off line if the RPM is lowered. My
habit is to check during runup, not at idle. I will check when I get a
chance to fly again.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300 hours
Columbia, SC
A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
Matt-
N34RD
>
> Kevin,
>
> My electrical system is a modified "All Electric on a Budget" system. I
> check the SD-8 during runup since it does not come on line below about
> 1500 RPM. My procedure is SD-8 ON, Main Buss OFF then check voltage
> . If the SD-8 is on line the voltage will be about 14 volts, if not it
> will be about 12 volts or slightly less. At this point the load meter
> on my main alternator will go to "0". Then Main Buss ON and SD-8 Off.
> In 300 hours it has never failed during runup. It will not come on line
> at idle.
>
>
> I have be thinking about temporarily installing a temperature probe on
> my SD-8 regulator and going flying to get some empirical data on
> regulator/heat issue.
>
> Ken Harrill
> RV-6, 300 hours
> Columbia, SC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hebeard2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Aeroelectric Digest |
Matt,
I continue to receive the Aeroelectric-list Digest in spite of several
attempts to unsubscribe, the latest was yesterday March 16, 2004. The return message
was that I was not a subscriber to this list.
However today, March 17, 2004, I received three more messages from the
Aeroelectric-list Digest. How do I stop these unnecessary messages? I guess one
way
would to unsubscribe to everything and start over.
Harley E. Beard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis, David CMDR" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au> |
| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN AN RV |
Folks,
Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop below
60kts.
Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots. In
Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped props. One
was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is that
both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were nearly
identical as follows:
a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure fuel
line, cant remember the other).
b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks upwind of
the runways.
c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop stopped. In
RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to curve
away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation starts at
this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators. This
reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine with engine
running.
e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority was
insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G. This
is a very survivable deceleration, but
g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the rear fuselage
to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness, allowing
both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed the
pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries to the
front and back of the head.
Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over 60kts to keep
the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars here in
Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: bench checking, what to watch out for |
Well, in large part due to reading Bob's book and this list, I have decided
to do some of my own avionics install of an audio panel/intercom with marker
beacon (pse 7000), gps/com (300xl), kns-80, and probably an ICOM 200.
I want to get everything "hooked up" and powered up on the work bench, test
the intercom, do a basic "does it power up test" etc. before bolting everything
in the airplane.
I assume I can use a 12 volt car battery for power with appropriate breaker
or fuse.
I understand I need to have an antenna on each comm output or I will blow
something.
Do I need the other antennas hooked up for a basic power on test, such as the
dme, marker beacon, or nav?
Is there anything else I need to have hooked into the system so I don't
damage any of the equipment?
Thank you for your help. Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PeterHunt1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Control Stick Switch Overrides |
Hi bob:
Since I didn't get an answer, I hope you don't mind me asking again. I have
arranged my copilot stick grip switch overrides as in the lower half of your
schematic ... except I left the diodes out. I haven't powered things up yet
and so I have two questions. 1) Why do you suggest using diodes? 2) What
may/will happen in my arrangement without your diodes? Thanks.
Pete Hunt
Clearwater, Florida
RV-6, installing engine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN AN RV |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francis, David CMDR" <David.Francis(at)defence.gov.au>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN AN RV
>
> Folks,
> Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop below
> 60kts.
>
> Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots. In
> Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped props.
One
> was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is that
> both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were nearly
> identical as follows:
>
> a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure fuel
> line, cant remember the other).
> b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks upwind of
> the runways.
> c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop stopped.
In
> RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
> d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to curve
> away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation starts at
> this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators. This
> reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine with
engine
> running.
> e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority was
> insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
> aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
> f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G. This
> is a very survivable deceleration, but
> g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the rear
fuselage
> to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
> h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness, allowing
> both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
> i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed the
> pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries to
the
> front and back of the head.
>
> Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over 60kts to
keep
> the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
>
> Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars here
in
> Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
>
> David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
>
I have made two engine out landings with the prop stopped and have not
noticed any lack of elevator control authority. However, I did manage my
rate of descent such that it never exceeded 750 fpm and airspeed did not
decrease below 87 MPH IAS until over the fence and beginning to flare.
I agree that with the engine running and producing thrust you have more
elevator control authority, but I don't understand how it makes any
difference to the elevator if the prop is not producing thrust as to whether
it is stopped or turning. I can certainly see how it can make a difference
in your rate of descent is high and if low on airspeed. I can vouch that
(even with a running engine) you may have difficulty arresting your rate of
descent if you either let the rate of descent get too high and/or air speed
too low.
Appreciate your summary of the unfortunate accidents, I had never considered
the cockpit area forshorting due to compression causing the shoulder harness
to fail to keep the head out of the panel. Perhaps flying with a helmet as
the military do has some merit even in RVs.
Ed
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Stick Switch Overrides |
Hi Pete;
I'm a different "Bob" but in response to your question, without the
diodes you do not necessarily acquire complete override of the
co-pilots' controls. When you turn off the co-pilots' controls you
prevent him from operating anything UNTIL you, the pilot, operate one of
your switches. Now if the co-pilot pushes his switch for the same
function and one for another function all at the same time, ground for
his "second" switch feeds back from your ground through the first switch
duplicating yours and he is able to operate that second system. The
diodes prevent this possibility. Sounds very complicated but look at the
schematic and visualize both pilot and copilot "down trim" pushed while
co-pilots' controls are supposedly "off." You have now re-established a
ground for all of the copilots buttons and so during the time that this
situation is valid all of the other copilot buttons will work also.
Maybe grasping at remote possibilities, but none the less electrically
it's possible. The diodes make it impossible.
Bob McC
PeterHunt1(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>Hi bob:
>
>Since I didn't get an answer, I hope you don't mind me asking again. I have
>arranged my copilot stick grip switch overrides as in the lower half of your
>schematic ... except I left the diodes out. I haven't powered things up yet
>and so I have two questions. 1) Why do you suggest using diodes? 2) What
>may/will happen in my arrangement without your diodes? Thanks.
>
>Pete Hunt
>Clearwater, Florida
>RV-6, installing engine
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> AN RV |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN |
AN RV
RV
>
>
>Folks,
>Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop below
>60kts.
>
>Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots. In
>Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped props. One
>was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is that
>both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were nearly
>identical as follows:
>
>a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure fuel
>line, cant remember the other).
>b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks upwind of
>the runways.
>c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop stopped. In
>RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
>d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to curve
>away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation starts at
>this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators. This
>reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine with engine
>running.
>e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority was
>insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
>aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
>f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G. This
>is a very survivable deceleration, but
>g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the rear fuselage
>to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
>h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness, allowing
>both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
>i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed the
>pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries to the
>front and back of the head.
>
>Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over 60kts to keep
>the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
>
>Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars here in
>Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
>
>David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
Interesting accidents, but I think you have drawn the wrong
conclusion. If the prop is windmilling (i.e. the engine has failed,
but the air is keeping the prop turning), the drag is much higher
than if the prop is stopped. The air actually slows down as it goes
through a windmilling prop. So the inboard wing is likely to stall a
bit earlier than if the prop was stopped, or if the engine was
running. The lower air velocity in the prop wash will also reduce
elevator effectiveness.
This is the reverse of what happens if the engine is producing power
and it is spinning the prop. In that case the air speeds up as it
goes through the prop, and this increased air velocity helps keep the
inboard wing from stalling, and it increases elevator effectiveness.
So, the real problem was that the pilots allowed the speed to get too
slow. The fact that the prop stopped actually would have helped
them, but it was not enough of a help to make up for the too slow
speed.
The real lesson to draw from these accidents is to not let the speed
bleed off below a normal approach speed. Faster is even better.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Preflight check of SD-8? |
>
>Hi Kevin,
>
>Good question. Comments below...
>
> >
> >
> > I'm working on the checklists for my RV-8, and am wondering whether
> > there are any potential issues around checking an SD-8 standby
> > alternator right after engine start. I was considering starting the
> > engine, then selecting the SD-8 ON to confirm a voltage rise, then
> > selecting the SD-8 OFF and selecting the main alternator ON.
> >
>
>I think checking the SD-8 at start up will work just fine
>
> > Will the SD-8 have enough output to bring the voltage up even though
> > the battery needs to be recharged?
>
>Once the starter load is removed from the battery, it won't take much
>current capacity to recover the battery voltage. Turning the SD-8 will
>definitely bring the battery voltage above the required charging value.
There is a minimum speed for useful output which I have not
measured but is most certainly higher than ramp idle.
>Are there any concerns about load
> > dump issues when I select the SD-8 OFF while it is trying to charge the
>
>I don't think any of the PM alternators are cause for concern with regard
>to battery dump. Partly because they don't have enough snort to worry
>about it, and partly because the regulators don't use field current to
>control output.
True
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Coax related |
>
>In a message dated 3/17/04 8:43:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
>
> >
> > RG-400 (stranded center conductor) or RG-142 (solid) would be an
> > excellent
> > substitute for RG-58 (WWII vintage stuff). These modern coaxes will
> > present 20 db/hundred feet at DME frequencies so 10 feet will
> > be 2.0 dB and 7.5 feet would be 1.5 dB. RG-58 would be about 26 dB
> > per hundred so you couldn't make the 1.5 dB requirement in 6' of
> > coax.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > Bob, Related subject......How much loss will be experienced by
> putting
>in a right angle BNC adapter at the antenna? I have RG-400 coax. Would you
>discourage the use of the adapter?
No, losses across connector joints are insignificant. We try to minimize
connections from a reliability perspective but if you need the
connector, by all means install it. When I was supplying ready-built
coax assemblies and the customer wanted a right-angle connector on
one end, it was MUCH less expensive to install a straight connector,
add a right angle adapter and then secure the joint with sealing
heat shrink.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
>
>A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
>out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
>or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
>is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
>bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
The 200G is gear driven at much higher speeds than
the SD-9 on the vacuum pump pad. The higher operating
speed is why the 200G is rated at 12 AMPS as opposed
to 8 AMPS for the SD-8. Electrically and magnetically,
they are identical machines. This is another reason why
resolving the current rating issues for this product
line are so important. It's more than a matter of whether
the SD-8 is "over rated" due to heat rejection capabilities
of its regulator. The same suite of electro-goodies are
used in the 200G which would be in more trouble yet.
It would be interesting if someone flying the SD-8
would give us the minimum RPM to "wiggle" the loadmeter.
This is the minimum speed for ANY useable output. A
handy number to know. If you don't have a loadmeter,
slowly increase rpm and not where the first noticeable
increase in bus voltage occurs.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Preflight check of SD-8? |
>
>I'm working on the checklists for my RV-8, and am wondering whether
>there are any potential issues around checking an SD-8 standby
>alternator right after engine start. I was considering starting the
>engine, then selecting the SD-8 ON to confirm a voltage rise, then
>selecting the SD-8 OFF and selecting the main alternator ON.
>
>Will the SD-8 have enough output to bring the voltage up even though
>the battery needs to be recharge? Are there any concerns about load
>dump issues when I select the SD-8 OFF while it is trying to charge
>the battery? It seems like the only other opportunity to check the
>SD-8 preflight would be to select the main alternator OFF during the
>runup, and check the SD-8 then. But that seems like it could trigger
>the load dump problems, unless the battery has been charged by then.
Do you have an internally regulated alternator installed per
Z-24? If so, it's unlikely that you'll have a "battery dump"
event by turning the alternator off at ramp idle (unless your
battery was very low on charge when you started the engine).
If you have an internally regulated alternator, you can shut
it off at any time with little risk . . . but still, there's
no need to cycle it at anything other than ramp idle speeds during
preflight.
>I'll need the SD-8 as backup when I fly IFR, so I want a way to do a
>preflight check on it. What is the best way to do this?
At the run up pad, shut the main alternator OFF and the SD-8
ON before you increase rpm for mag/governor checks. During
engine checks, just note that the alternator is putting out
current as viewed on loadmeter . . . low volts warning should
be dark too unless you have a lot of stuff turned on. After
engine checks and back at ramp idle, swap the alternators
back.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroelectric Digest |
>
>Matt,
>
>I continue to receive the Aeroelectric-list Digest in spite of several
>attempts to unsubscribe, the latest was yesterday March 16, 2004. The
>return message
>was that I was not a subscriber to this list.
>
>However today, March 17, 2004, I received three more messages from the
>Aeroelectric-list Digest. How do I stop these unnecessary messages? I
>guess one way
>would to unsubscribe to everything and start over.
>
>Harley E. Beard
Give that a try. Failing that, drop a note directly to
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Control Stick Switch Overrides |
>
>
>Hi Pete;
>
>I'm a different "Bob" but in response to your question, without the
>diodes you do not necessarily acquire complete override of the
>co-pilots' controls. When you turn off the co-pilots' controls you
>prevent him from operating anything UNTIL you, the pilot, operate one of
>your switches. Now if the co-pilot pushes his switch for the same
>function and one for another function all at the same time, ground for
>his "second" switch feeds back from your ground through the first switch
>duplicating yours and he is able to operate that second system. The
>diodes prevent this possibility. Sounds very complicated but look at the
>schematic and visualize both pilot and copilot "down trim" pushed while
>co-pilots' controls are supposedly "off." You have now re-established a
>ground for all of the copilots buttons and so during the time that this
>situation is valid all of the other copilot buttons will work also.
>Maybe grasping at remote possibilities, but none the less electrically
>it's possible. The diodes make it impossible.
Bob, thanks for stepping in to field this question. My service
provider's SMTP server has been on the fritz since yesterday
morning and I've not been able to launch outgoing mail until
now. Appreciate your willingness and ability to support.
Hey Peter, haven't heard from you in quite awhile. How's
the RV project going? Got it out of the living room yet?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> for |
| Subject: | Re: bench checking, what to watch out |
for
for
>
>Well, in large part due to reading Bob's book and this list, I have decided
>to do some of my own avionics install of an audio panel/intercom with marker
>beacon (pse 7000), gps/com (300xl), kns-80, and probably an ICOM 200.
>
>I want to get everything "hooked up" and powered up on the work bench, test
>the intercom, do a basic "does it power up test" etc. before bolting
>everything
>in the airplane.
>
>I assume I can use a 12 volt car battery for power with appropriate breaker
>or fuse.
sure
>I understand I need to have an antenna on each comm output or I will blow
>something.
Only on transmitters . . .and only if you plan to push the talk button.
You can "dummy load" a tranceiver's output jack to the antenna with
a combination of resistors wired to an appropriate connector. Depending
on power output of your transmitter (and how long you hold the button
down) your array of dummy load resistors can be rather small. Here's
one example of a DIY dummy load that will probably do what you need
done:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/DummyLoad.jpg
>Do I need the other antennas hooked up for a basic power on test, such as the
>dme, marker beacon, or nav?
no
>Is there anything else I need to have hooked into the system so I don't
>damage any of the equipment?
no
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Preflight check of SD-8? |
>
>
>>
>>I'm working on the checklists for my RV-8, and am wondering whether
>>there are any potential issues around checking an SD-8 standby
>>alternator right after engine start. I was considering starting the
>>engine, then selecting the SD-8 ON to confirm a voltage rise, then
>>selecting the SD-8 OFF and selecting the main alternator ON.
>>
>>Will the SD-8 have enough output to bring the voltage up even though
>>the battery needs to be recharge? Are there any concerns about load
>>dump issues when I select the SD-8 OFF while it is trying to charge
>>the battery? It seems like the only other opportunity to check the
>>SD-8 preflight would be to select the main alternator OFF during the
>>runup, and check the SD-8 then. But that seems like it could trigger
>>the load dump problems, unless the battery has been charged by then.
>
> Do you have an internally regulated alternator installed per
> Z-24? If so, it's unlikely that you'll have a "battery dump"
> event by turning the alternator off at ramp idle (unless your
> battery was very low on charge when you started the engine).
> If you have an internally regulated alternator, you can shut
> it off at any time with little risk . . . but still, there's
> no need to cycle it at anything other than ramp idle speeds during
> preflight.
I've got a Ford external regulator (VR66, or 166, IIRC), wired as per
one of your drawings from a few years ago.
>
>>I'll need the SD-8 as backup when I fly IFR, so I want a way to do a
>>preflight check on it. What is the best way to do this?
>
> At the run up pad, shut the main alternator OFF and the SD-8
> ON before you increase rpm for mag/governor checks. During
> engine checks, just note that the alternator is putting out
> current as viewed on loadmeter . . . low volts warning should
> be dark too unless you have a lot of stuff turned on. After
> engine checks and back at ramp idle, swap the alternators
> back.
I currently don't have a loadmeter for either alternator, although I
am reconsidering that. I'm not sure yet whether my EIS 4000 could be
configured to support two loadmeters, or if I could only have one.
I'm running out of panel space for a separate loadmeter.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kempthornes <kempthornes(at)earthlink.net> IN AN RV |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP |
IN AN RV
IN AN RV
Who is going to test this at altitude, of course?
Go up high, stop the prop, slow to below 60kts and see if there is adequate
elevator authority to flare. Is it that simple to answer this important issue?
Probably ought to bring this up to Van too.
hal
do annual and panel upgrade or I'd do the test.
At 06:19 PM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
> AN RV
>
> >
> >
> >Folks,
> >Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop below
> >60kts.
> >
> >Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots. In
> >Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped props. One
> >was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is that
> >both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were nearly
> >identical as follows:
> >
> >a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure fuel
> >line, cant remember the other).
> >b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks upwind of
> >the runways.
> >c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop stopped. In
> >RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
> >d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to curve
> >away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation starts at
> >this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators. This
> >reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine with engine
> >running.
> >e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority was
> >insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
> >aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
> >f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G. This
> >is a very survivable deceleration, but
> >g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the rear fuselage
> >to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
> >h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness, allowing
> >both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
> >i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed the
> >pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries to the
> >front and back of the head.
> >
> >Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over 60kts to keep
> >the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
> >
> >Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars here in
> >Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
> >
> >David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
>
>Interesting accidents, but I think you have drawn the wrong
>conclusion. If the prop is windmilling (i.e. the engine has failed,
>but the air is keeping the prop turning), the drag is much higher
>than if the prop is stopped. The air actually slows down as it goes
>through a windmilling prop. So the inboard wing is likely to stall a
>bit earlier than if the prop was stopped, or if the engine was
>running. The lower air velocity in the prop wash will also reduce
>elevator effectiveness.
>
>This is the reverse of what happens if the engine is producing power
>and it is spinning the prop. In that case the air speeds up as it
>goes through the prop, and this increased air velocity helps keep the
>inboard wing from stalling, and it increases elevator effectiveness.
>
>So, the real problem was that the pilots allowed the speed to get too
>slow. The fact that the prop stopped actually would have helped
>them, but it was not enough of a help to make up for the too slow
>speed.
>
>The real lesson to draw from these accidents is to not let the speed
>bleed off below a normal approach speed. Faster is even better.
>--
>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>Ottawa, Canada
>http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> AN RV |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN |
AN RV
RV
It's not quite that easy, unfortunately. First off, ground effect
comes into play, and it affects the amount of lift the wing produces
(a bit more lift for the same angle of attack if you are in ground
effect) and the angle of attack at the stall (the wing will stall at
a bit lower angle of attack in ground effect than out of ground
effect). The flow over the tail is also affected, so that affects
the amount of pitching moment generated for any given elevator
deflection.
And to make things even more difficult, each RV has its own airspeed
errors. So 60 kt IAS on your RV may be quite a different speed than
60 kt IAS on someone else's RV. This is one reason why you see such
large differences in the approach speeds that people report using.
And to cap it all off, you have to ask your self how you determine at
altitude whether you have managed to demonstrate satisfactory pitch
authority to flare. Are you going to look at the altimeter or VSI to
see if you manage to level the aircraft? If so, you could be
mislead, because as you approach the stall there is likely a large
change in the static source position error, and this will affect the
altimeter error.
So, simulated flares at altitude are really only a good test in cases
where the aircraft obviously has way more than enough flare
capability, or where there is almost zero flare capability. A
simulated flare at altitude is not a very good test if the real
capability is somewhere in between zero and huge.
Kevin Horton
> IN AN RV
>
>Who is going to test this at altitude, of course?
>
>Go up high, stop the prop, slow to below 60kts and see if there is adequate
>elevator authority to flare. Is it that simple to answer this
>important issue?
>Probably ought to bring this up to Van too.
>
>hal
>do annual and panel upgrade or I'd do the test.
>
>At 06:19 PM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
>> AN RV
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Folks,
>> >Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop below
>> >60kts.
>> >
>> >Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots. In
>> >Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped props. One
>> >was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is that
>> >both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were nearly
>> >identical as follows:
>> >
>> >a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure fuel
>> >line, cant remember the other).
>> >b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks upwind of
>> >the runways.
>> >c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop stopped. In
>> >RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
>> >d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to curve
>> >away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation starts at
>> >this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators. This
>> >reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine
>>with engine
>> >running.
>> >e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority was
>> >insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
>> >aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
>> >f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G. This
>> >is a very survivable deceleration, but
>> >g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the
>>rear fuselage
>> >to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
>> >h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness, allowing
>> >both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
>> >i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed the
>> >pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries to the
> > >front and back of the head.
>> >
>> >Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over
>>60kts to keep
>> >the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
>> >
>> >Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars here in
>> >Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
>> >
>> >David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
>>
>>Interesting accidents, but I think you have drawn the wrong
>>conclusion. If the prop is windmilling (i.e. the engine has failed,
>>but the air is keeping the prop turning), the drag is much higher
>>than if the prop is stopped. The air actually slows down as it goes
>>through a windmilling prop. So the inboard wing is likely to stall a
>>bit earlier than if the prop was stopped, or if the engine was
>>running. The lower air velocity in the prop wash will also reduce
>>elevator effectiveness.
>>
>>This is the reverse of what happens if the engine is producing power
>>and it is spinning the prop. In that case the air speeds up as it
>>goes through the prop, and this increased air velocity helps keep the
>>inboard wing from stalling, and it increases elevator effectiveness.
>>
>>So, the real problem was that the pilots allowed the speed to get too
>>slow. The fact that the prop stopped actually would have helped
>>them, but it was not enough of a help to make up for the too slow
>>speed.
>>
>>The real lesson to draw from these accidents is to not let the speed
>>bleed off below a normal approach speed. Faster is even better.
>>--
>>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>>Ottawa, Canada
> >http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>>
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroelectric Digest |
>
>
> >
> >Matt,
> >
> >I continue to receive the Aeroelectric-list Digest in spite of several
> >attempts to unsubscribe, the latest was yesterday March 16, 2004. The
> >return message
> >was that I was not a subscriber to this list.
> >
> >However today, March 17, 2004, I received three more messages from the
> >Aeroelectric-list Digest. How do I stop these unnecessary messages? I
> >guess one way
> >would to unsubscribe to everything and start over.
> >
> >Harley E. Beard
>Give that a try. Failing that, drop a note directly to Matt Dralle
Give that a try. Failing that, drop a not directly to Matt Dralle
at Matronics . . . if there's some glitch preventing you from
editing your subscription through normal procedures, he can
probably edit your subscription manually.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C J Heitman" <cjh(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
Kevin Horton wrote:
I'm not sure yet whether my EIS 4000 could be configured to support two
loadmeters, or if I could only have one.
<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
Kevin:
You don't need 2 load meters. Just get the hall-effect current sensor for
the EIS4000 and run the B-leads from both alternators through the sensor
toroid. Works great! If I recall correctly, I did see 1 or 2 amps from the
SD-8 during the only run-up that I did with the SD-8 online and the main
alternator shut down (at about 1,700rpm). I'll check again to confirm this
and will post an update if I see anything different.
Chris Heitman
Dousman WI
RV-9A N94ME (flying!)
http://my.execpc.com/~cjh/rv9a.html
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Preflight check of SD-8? |
> >
> > Do you have an internally regulated alternator installed per
> > Z-24? If so, it's unlikely that you'll have a "battery dump"
> > event by turning the alternator off at ramp idle (unless your
> > battery was very low on charge when you started the engine).
> > If you have an internally regulated alternator, you can shut
> > it off at any time with little risk . . . but still, there's
> > no need to cycle it at anything other than ramp idle speeds during
> > preflight.
>
>I've got a Ford external regulator (VR66, or 166, IIRC), wired as per
>one of your drawings from a few years ago.
Okay, this alternator is not subject to "battery dump" spiking
by turning it on/off while loaded.
> >
> >>I'll need the SD-8 as backup when I fly IFR, so I want a way to do a
> >>preflight check on it. What is the best way to do this?
> >
> > At the run up pad, shut the main alternator OFF and the SD-8
> > ON before you increase rpm for mag/governor checks. During
> > engine checks, just note that the alternator is putting out
> > current as viewed on loadmeter . . . low volts warning should
> > be dark too unless you have a lot of stuff turned on. After
> > engine checks and back at ramp idle, swap the alternators
> > back.
>
>I currently don't have a loadmeter for either alternator, although I
>am reconsidering that. I'm not sure yet whether my EIS 4000 could be
>configured to support two loadmeters, or if I could only have one.
>I'm running out of panel space for a separate loadmeter.
You can install two hall effect sensors and switch between them.
If no loadmeter on SD-8, just turn it on/off while watching the
voltmeter. If the voltmeter rises with the alternator ON, it is
most likely functional.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>This may sound like an ignorant question. I hope not.... I plan to build
>up the electrical system in my IFR Glasair using as many fuses (as opposed
>to all breakers) as is reasonable. I want to use the minimum number of
>breakers or switch/breakers. I've studied all the Z drawings, and the rest
>of the book too. I believe the two electronic ignitions, the (single)
>alternator output and the alternator field should have breakers..., agreed?
>So what else needs breakers?
Just the alternator field. Everything else can go on fuses.
Run the ignition system directly from its own battery bus
fuse block.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> match |
| Subject: | Re: low battery price that Spruce won't |
match
match
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III match wrote:
> match
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Found http://www.gotbatteries.com/Productpage.asp?ProductNum=35L105S3 for
> >>$29 which is significantly less than the $68 price that Spruce
> >>wants. They wouldn't match the price. Makes you wonder why they have a
> >>low price policy.
> >>
> >>Is this a RG battery? Anybody have experience with this battery or the
> >>supplier that's selling it for the low price?
> >>
> >>Joa
> >
> >
> > It is an RG battery. PowerSonic isn't one of the big-name manufacturers
> > and doesn't have to support a big advertising budget. Give them a try.
> > If you plan to do battery-a-year preventative maintenance, this may
> > well be the ideal candidate.
>
>Bob, in the past you've mentioned some capacity-testing procedures. Can you
>shed any insight on stress-testing procedures? Simply running the battery
>through a few charge-discharge cycles doesn't seem very thorough to me. I can
>envision some cycle tests at different (low to very high) discharge rates
>followed by charges at different rates as well, but if there's anything
>pre-existing that's a bit more formal I'd appreciate your input.
My favorite load tester is the Autometer SB-5. That's what we have
here and at B&C. We stress test a battery by loading it to 9 volts
for 15 seconds and reading the end-point current. A good, 17 a.h. battery
is good for 300A plus. 200 plus would probably get an engine started.
A new Walmart battery I just put in my van was good for 480A.
See:
http://www.autoelectricdirect.com/_auto.htm
>When working with a relatively unknown/new battery vendor it'd be nice to
>have
>some testing procedures. Given the low cost of this battery I wouldn't think
>twice to even destroy one in a destructive test to see how it would perform
>under all sorts of conditions.
Take it to any battery shop or automotive shop . . . these battery testers
are quite common. They should be able to test it with a similar device.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Off line until Monday |
We're all packed up and going to hit the road for a 13 hour drive
to Kalamazoo tomorrow. We'll be back in Wichita on Monday.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
[snip]
>
> I currently don't have a loadmeter for either alternator, although I
> am reconsidering that. I'm not sure yet whether my EIS 4000 could be
> configured to support two loadmeters, or if I could only have one.
Kevin,
I have been looking at the GRT Horizon, which uses the EIS 4000 for engine
data collection. In speaking with Greg and crew I discussed monitoring dual
currents and dual voltages as I am implementing Z-14 (dual alt/dual batt).
I have been informed that this can be done. Now, I do NOT know if it is all
done by the EIS 4000 or not but I should be able to look it up. Contact me
offline if you cannot reach GRT as I have some info I can review.
James
> I'm running out of panel space for a separate loadmeter.
> --
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com> |
I've just received a strip of EL tape and an inverter. Can anyone tell me how
I cut this, (scissors?), and then connect the cut piece to the inverter in addition
to the main section with its pigtail?
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Question for EL Lighting users---
I have always presumed that inverters were electrically noisy and thus EL
lighting might lead to some interference.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: EL lighting |
Eric,
I have installed EL lighting under my glareshield. Thuough I have not
yet flown I have tested it with my two navcoms also installed. With
squelch open, there is no noise from the EL. The power from the inverter
is supposedly a 400 Hz square wave.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A paint prep
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> Question for EL Lighting users---
>
>I have always presumed that inverters were electrically noisy and thus EL
>lighting might lead to some interference.
>
>Does anyone have experience with this?
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>Phone (508) 764-2072
>Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
>"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
>less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
>For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
>not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
>tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> - R. Buckminster Fuller
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Icom wiring diagram |
| From: | <EricHe(at)FlexSolPackaging.com> |
Hi All,
I'm getting ready to wire an Icom A200 to a PS engineering PM3000, does anyone
have a schematic whipped up for this instillation? Thought it might be worth asking.
Thanks
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: EL lighting |
In a message dated 3/19/04 7:41:33 AM Central Standard Time,
emjones(at)charter.net writes:
> I have always presumed that inverters were electrically noisy and thus EL
> lighting might lead to some interference.
I was told the same for using PWM for dimming- ain't heard nuthin' yet...
Mark Phillips -6A FLYING!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Metcalfe, Lee, AIR" <Lee.Metcalfe(at)jocogov.org> |
My flying Lancair 320 has 517 hrs. TT. Within the last few hours of
flying, the ammeter has begun a rhythmic wiggle at about 1.5 cycles per
second with about a 10 amp amplitude. Occasionally the amplitude will
go full scale with no apparent triggering event. Adding load just moves
the range of the wiggle further up the scale. The frequency of the
wiggle is independent of engine RPM. It's the same at idle as at full
tilt boogie. I have pulled the alternator (generic automotive type,
externally regulated) and had it tested. No problems. I have checked,
cleaned and tightened all connections in the
alternator/regulator/battery circuits. I'm now down to either the
regulator or the meter being bad. The meter is one of those combined
ammeter/voltmeter jobbies where it normally shows amps and you push a
button for volts. The ammeter is shunted from the B lead, which goes
through a 35-amp breaker to the main bus. The voltage indication is
rock steady and agrees with the digital voltage shown in my EDM-700.
The battery (Odyssey PC925) seems to be being charged normally. The
regulator is a generic automotive type and is the original installation
(517 hrs.). It is mounted on the engine side of the firewall in a very
difficult place to get to (I didn't build my plane). Changing it is
going to be a major pain. That's why I wanted to get y'all's feedback
before attacking the regulator.
Any suggestions for further troubleshooting? I have a digital
multimeter but don't know how to use it to diagnose this situation.
Lee Metcalfe
N320WH - Kansas City
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | starter relay testing |
| From: | Bob Bittner <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com> |
03/19/2004 10:32:17 AM,
Serialize complete at 03/19/2004 10:32:17 AM
I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering if
there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not hooked
to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some load). .
The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them had the
same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement. Shouldn't
I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For example, on the
one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of resistance, which
seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get 2 bad ones, or am I
missing something?
Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | loflinj(at)comcast.net |
Hi all,
I'm looking for a source of backlit engraved rocker switches. Only source I
have found is from Lancair and they are a little $pendy at $30.00 a pop. I
also found a few from Chief, but they don't have the particular wording I'm
looking for.
Thanks,
-Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Martin" <niceez(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
Your doing it wrong.....
I am sure Bob will respond..
Dale Martin
Lewiston, ID
LEZ-235
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bittner" <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: starter relay testing
>
> I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering if
> there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
> applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
> response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
> as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not hooked
> to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some load). .
> The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them had the
> same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement. Shouldn't
> I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For example, on the
> one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of resistance, which
> seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get 2 bad ones, or am I
> missing something?
> Thanks.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Metcalfe, Lee, AIR" <Lee.Metcalfe(at)jocogov.org> |
I should have mentioned that I have tried isolating the various loads on
the bus to see if one of them is responsible for the wiggle. The wiggle
is there independent of what loads are on the bus and is even present
with no loads (that I am aware of) on the bus.
Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Did you check for resistance between the each terminal and the case
(ground)?
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering
> if there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
> applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
> response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
> as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not
> hooked to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some
> load). . The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them
> had the same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement.
> Shouldn't I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For
> example, on the one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of
> resistance, which seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get
> 2 bad ones, or am I missing something?
> Thanks.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
AML34 series from Honeywell, I bought mine from Peerless Electronics,
$20 a pop, 10 week lead time. Had the engraving done by
www.engravers.net.
FMI, http://peerlesselectronics.com/ and
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30035.pdf
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
loflinj(at)comcast.net
Subject:
Hi all,
I'm looking for a source of backlit engraved rocker switches. Only
source I
have found is from Lancair and they are a little $pendy at $30.00 a
pop. I
also found a few from Chief, but they don't have the particular wording
I'm
looking for.
Thanks,
-Jack
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
| From: | Bob Bittner <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com> |
03/19/2004 11:23:04 AM,
Serialize complete at 03/19/2004 11:23:04 AM
>Did you check for resistance between the each terminal and the case
>(ground)?
>
>
>> I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm
wondering...
There is continuity between the mounting bracket (ground) and the right
terminal. There's a tag on the left terminal that says not to use this
terminal if the original had only 3, so I'm assuming this is supposed to
be connected to the big input terminal inside. It's not.
Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Sa <carlosfsa(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rocker switches |
You could try the following:
www.cmsquick.com
http://www.nkkswitches.com/switchcategory.asp?S3=2 or http://www.nkkswitches.com
http://wesgarde.com/linecard.shtml
http://www.engravers.net/main/ac_products.htm
http://www.aircraftsimulators.com/products.html
Good luck
Carlos
> I'm looking for a source of backlit engraved rocker switches. Only source I
> have found is from Lancair and they are a little $pendy at $30.00 a pop. I
> also found a few from Chief, but they don't have the particular wording I'm
> looking for.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
One of those terminals is not used or does nothing...........if memory serves.
>
>Your doing it wrong.....
>
>I am sure Bob will respond..
>
>Dale Martin
>Lewiston, ID
>LEZ-235
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob Bittner" <rbittner(at)us.ibm.com>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: starter relay testing
>
>
>>
>> I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering if
>> there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
>> applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
>> response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
>> as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not hooked
>> to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some load). .
>> The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them had the
>> same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement. Shouldn't
>> I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For example, on the
>> one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of resistance, which
>> seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get 2 bad ones, or am I
>> missing something?
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy Pflanzer" <f1rocket(at)comcast.net> |
You can order these from Pacific Coast Avionics for $40 apiece. Custom
wording costs $10 extra. They are on Page 61 of their online catalog.
http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/. I used them on my RV-6.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
----- Original Message -----
From: <loflinj(at)comcast.net>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for a source of backlit engraved rocker switches. Only source
I
> have found is from Lancair and they are a little $pendy at $30.00 a pop.
I
> also found a few from Chief, but they don't have the particular wording
I'm
> looking for.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Jack
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
I have an engine monitor connected to my car and I have noticed something
similar. That is the current jumps. My variation is about 4 amps, I
contributed the amount due to the lack of damping on the regulator's voltage
sense pin. That is the regulator turns on, the voltage goes high, regulator
turns off voltage goes low, and repeats. I only notice this effect when the
battery is close to fully charged.
Since your problem has not always been there I would suggest you check the
ground on the regulator, the voltage sense lead and the grounds to
alternator. If problems still exist try measuring the voltage across the
current shunt using a multimeter to see if the current is really jumping.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Metcalfe,
Lee, AIR
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dancing Ammeter
I should have mentioned that I have tried isolating the various loads on
the bus to see if one of them is responsible for the wiggle. The wiggle
is there independent of what loads are on the bus and is even present
with no loads (that I am aware of) on the bus.
Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | thomas.a.dollmeyer(at)Cummins.com |
cidcn00015.cidc.cummins.com/G/Cummins(Release 5.0.11 |July 24,
2002) at 03/19/2004 01":OF986ABDB3.2AD5518B-ON05256E5C.0060A6BC-05256E5C.0062B91,
Serialize complete at 03/19/2004 01:01:17.PM(at)matronics.com
Troy, my electronic ignition is direct, no breaker. For power I have the
alternator field on a breaker and the ground power on a switch/breaker.
UPSAT calls for a breaker for the SL70R, and it is pulled during system
checkout during install and during transponder/encoder calibration. They
also require a 'manually pullable circuit breaker' for the two power
lines to the CNX80. I'm not sure why, but I may yet discover a service
procedure that uses them, so I followed along. TruTrak also asked for a
pullable breaker on the autopilot, and since that adds an additional means
for shutting it down, I put that breaker in as well.
My 'breakerless' aircraft now has breakers for: alternator field; CNX80
Nav; CNX80 Com; Transponder; Autopilot and Ground Power(switch/breaker).
Tom Dollmeyer
Glasair SuperII FT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Orear" <jorear(at)new.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom wiring diagram |
Hi Eric:
I am in the process of wiring my A200 to a PS Engineering PMA 4000. I can
share with you how I *think* I have it figured out. Email me off list if
you would like to see my configuration
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A
panel
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: <EricHe(at)FlexSolPackaging.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom wiring diagram
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm getting ready to wire an Icom A200 to a PS engineering PM3000, does
anyone have a schematic whipped up for this instillation? Thought it might
be worth asking.
>
> Thanks
>
> Eric
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bruce -
Did that $20 each include the bezel and cover? Did they have to special
order the can/holder combination you wanted? What was it and also the cost?
These Honeywell pieces are still the best, but it all adds up when you put
all the pieces together.
Thanks
John
>
> AML34 series from Honeywell, I bought mine from Peerless Electronics,
> $20 a pop, 10 week lead time. Had the engraving done by
> www.engravers.net.
>
> FMI, http://peerlesselectronics.com/ and
> http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30035.pdf
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> loflinj(at)comcast.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for a source of backlit engraved rocker switches. Only
> source I
> have found is from Lancair and they are a little $pendy at $30.00 a
> pop. I
> also found a few from Chief, but they don't have the particular wording
> I'm
> looking for.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Jack
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Butcher" <europa(at)triton.net> |
You wrote
I've just received a strip of EL tape and an inverter. Can anyone tell me
how
> I cut this, (scissors?), and then connect the cut piece to the inverter in
addition
> to the main section with its pigtail?
Rob,
You just cut the EL strip with scissors or exacto knife. You can cut holes
of the material. Connect the two sides to the power source (its like a
capacitor with luminenscent material as the dielectric) and it all should
illuminate. You also should seal the cut edge since moisture will migrate
and destroy the lamp. Clear scotch tape works ok.
Jim Butcher
Europa N241BW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rhett Westerman" <Rhettwesterman(at)cox.net> |
Your problem is some added resistance between the main bus and the voltage
regulator. Track through this circuit and locate the culprit. It should be
at some connection point in between these two locations.
best,
Rhett
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Metcalfe, Lee, AIR
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dancing Ammeter
My flying Lancair 320 has 517 hrs. TT. Within the last few hours of
flying, the ammeter has begun a rhythmic wiggle at about 1.5 cycles per
second with about a 10 amp amplitude. Occasionally the amplitude will
go full scale with no apparent triggering event. Adding load just moves
the range of the wiggle further up the scale. The frequency of the
wiggle is independent of engine RPM. It's the same at idle as at full
tilt boogie. I have pulled the alternator (generic automotive type,
externally regulated) and had it tested. No problems. I have checked,
cleaned and tightened all connections in the
alternator/regulator/battery circuits. I'm now down to either the
regulator or the meter being bad. The meter is one of those combined
ammeter/voltmeter jobbies where it normally shows amps and you push a
button for volts. The ammeter is shunted from the B lead, which goes
through a 35-amp breaker to the main bus. The voltage indication is
rock steady and agrees with the digital voltage shown in my EDM-700.
The battery (Odyssey PC925) seems to be being charged normally. The
regulator is a generic automotive type and is the original installation
(517 hrs.). It is mounted on the engine side of the firewall in a very
difficult place to get to (I didn't build my plane). Changing it is
going to be a major pain. That's why I wanted to get y'all's feedback
before attacking the regulator.
Any suggestions for further troubleshooting? I have a digital
multimeter but don't know how to use it to diagnose this situation.
Lee Metcalfe
N320WH - Kansas City
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
My AML's (AML34FBE4AA01) were $12.57 for the whole thing - bezel, cap
and 28v bulb. You will also need AML61 mounting strips if you're
mounting through anything other than metal. But they're cheap.
This purchase was made in 8/00 so prices may have gone up.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE:
Bruce -
Did that $20 each include the bezel and cover? Did they have to special
order the can/holder combination you wanted? What was it and also the
cost?
These Honeywell pieces are still the best, but it all adds up when you
put
all the pieces together.
Thanks
John
wrote:
>
> AML34 series from Honeywell, I bought mine from Peerless Electronics,
> $20 a pop, 10 week lead time. Had the engraving done by
> www.engravers.net.
>
> FMI, http://peerlesselectronics.com/ and
>
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30035.pdf
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> loflinj(at)comcast.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for a source of backlit engraved rocker switches. Only
> source I
> have found is from Lancair and they are a little $pendy at $30.00 a
> pop. I
> also found a few from Chief, but they don't have the particular
wording
> I'm
> looking for.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Jack
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
--
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benford2(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
In a message dated 3/19/2004 9:33:22 AM Mountain Standard Time,
rbittner(at)us.ibm.com writes:
> relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering if
> there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
> applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
> response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
> as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not hooked
> to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some load). .
> The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them had the
> same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement. Shouldn't
> I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For example, on the
> one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of resistance, which
> seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get 2 bad ones, or am I
> missing something?
> Thanks.
>
>
You did ground the body if it????
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: EL lighting |
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> Question for EL Lighting users---
>
> I have always presumed that inverters were electrically noisy and thus EL
> lighting might lead to some interference.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this?
EL inverters CAN be noisy but don't have to be. I have two, on in an MP3
player and one in a clock, that you can audibly HEAR if you hold it up to your
ear. But I also have one on an LCD panel that is completely silent.
EL panels use very little current (I have a night light advertised as 0.4W)
and higher current conductors are bigger potential noise sources. A poor
inverter design can also put back onto the power supply feed but since it's a
single frequency you could use a choke or notch filter at that frequency if
this happened to get rid of it. Quality varies. If your inverter is noisy just
try another. Most aren't that expensive, and you could build one cheaper than
you could fix a problem.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bass" <gtb(at)commspeed.net> |
1.) AML34 series from Honeywell, I bought mine from Peerless Electronics,
$20 a pop, 10 week lead time. Had the engraving done by
www.engravers.net.
FMI, http://peerlesselectronics.com/ and
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30035.pdf
AML's (AML34FBE4AA01) were $12.57 for the whole thing - bezel, cap
and 28v bulb. You will also need AML61 mounting strips if you're
mounting through anything other than metal. But they're cheap.
2.) www.cmsquick.com
http://www.nkkswitches.com/switchcategory.asp?S3=2 or,
http://www.nkkswitches.com
http://wesgarde.com/linecard.shtml
http://www.engravers.net/main/ac_products.htm
http://www.aircraftsimulators.com/products.html
3.) Electronic Technologies... www.electronictechnologies.net
etech(at)ucnsb.net and had the engraving done up in New England
4.) Carling Technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V
5.) Check out this Veloctiy XL's overhead switch panel:
http://www.velocityxl.com/Electrical.htm#Chapter
13.3.4 - Switches and Circuit Protection
6.) Few manufacturers supply the full range of switching functions in
rockers. Microswitch is one. Here's an exemplar switch w/functions
like our 2-10 toggle switch:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/2tp12-10.pdf
You can get clear and translucent operators that
can be engraved and illuminated from the rear. These
are popular with Lancair and Glasair builders.
Expect to pay quite a bit for these and to have to
special order some functions.
Bob Nuckolls
If this is not enough information, please let me know & I'll do a
larger search on the 'net' for any other available items that might
be more to your needs.
George
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rino Lacombe" <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
| Subject: | AeroElectric-List |
Anyone know the Radio Shack # for the inductro used to filter noisy devices.
I have a Turn Coordinator that has to be silenced
Thanks
Rino
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George Bass" <gtb(at)commspeed.net> |
Sorry for that last post, as it was supposed
to go to an individual and not the list.
It is merely a compilation of other posts here
that someone had asked me for.
George
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
George Bass wrote:
>
> Sorry for that last post, as it was supposed
> to go to an individual and not the list.
>
> It is merely a compilation of other posts here
> that someone had asked me for.
Don't apologize, George. =) You just let me rip out six messages from my
"Saved" folder and replace them with a single, nicely condensed version!
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Point <jpoint(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List |
270-030.
Here's a link to Bob's how-to.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/filter.html
Jeff Point
Rino Lacombe wrote:
>
>Anyone know the Radio Shack # for the inductro used to filter noisy devices.
>I have a Turn Coordinator that has to be silenced
>
>Thanks
>
>Rino
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Garmin 340 Audio panel question |
Hi Bob
Hope you can help me. I am in the final stages of putting my RV 8A together,
and today I attached my left wing to the fuselage. I ran the RG 400 cable from
the marker beacon antenna in the wing tip to the rear of the panel and
discovered that the audio panel (GMA 340) which has a marker beacon receiver, has
no
co-ax connector for the antenna. I checked the diagram for the two plugs and
found P1 lists pin 1 and 2 as the inputs for the marker beacon antenna.
My question is, how do I connect the RG 400 to the D Sub plug?
Ron Smith
N566U Rv-8A
getting close to the end!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
Hi Bob ;
I'm afraid that, yes, you're missing something and probably didn't get
any "bad ones". Most starter solenoids have two "big" terminals which
carry the heavy battery current to the starter motor. One goes to the
battery (or battery contactor) the other goes to the starter. It doesn't
normally matter which is which, they are interchangeable. Many also have
two "small" terminals as is the case with the one you describe. Many
times the ones with two small terminals are automotive starter
solenoids. One of the small terminals is connected to the solenoid
winding while the other end of the winding is almost always connected to
ground. (in other words the "frame" of the solenoid) In order to
energize the solenoid you must connect power between the correct small
terminal and ground of the solenoid. (its frame) The other small
terminal is used in the automotive application to bypass the ignition
ballast resistor in order to increase spark intensity for starting. In
an aircraft application this terminal is normally not used , but could,
if desired, be employed to power a "starter engaged" light. It will
become "live" when the solenoid is engaged. In starter solenoids with
only one small terminal the other side of the winding is also grounded
to the solenoid frame and thus the frame becomes one side of the
electrical circuit in these types also. You can experiment safely to
determine which is the "correct" small terminal by grounding the
solenoid frame to your negative battery terminal and then connecting the
positive battery terminal to one of the small terminals. The correct
one will cause the solenoid to engage with an audible snap, the
incorrect one will do nothing. The fan motor "load" you describe will
"test" the large contacts for you as you intended. You can measure the
coil resistance with your ohm meter but the coil is connected between
one of the small terminals and ground not between the two small
terminals. The test results you describe sound correct, the results you
are getting are exactly as they should be, and I suspect your solenoid
is probably working perfectly when properly connected.
Bob McC
Bob Bittner wrote:
>
>I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering if
>there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
>applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
>response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
>as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not hooked
>to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some load). .
>The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them had the
>same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement. Shouldn't
>I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For example, on the
>one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of resistance, which
>seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get 2 bad ones, or am I
>missing something?
>Thanks.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Holland" <hollandm(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Wiring the SD8 Warning light |
I'm wiring the SD8 as a backup alternator. The B&C wiring diagram includes an
alternator warning light fed from the S704 relay, which seemed like a good idea
until I tried to follow Bob's Z13. B&C has you wire the SD8 output to the
battery master bus which turns the warning light off with the master switch,
but if you wire, per Z13, the light remains on regardless since the output is
wired to the battery. Is there any issue/problem in wiring the SD output to
the essential bus so that the light will turn off with the master?
Also, have there been any EMI issues with SD8 subpanel components, including the
regulator, capacitor and relay. I ask since they are relatively close to my
instruments.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN AN RV |
Good inputs - but we can still do this - will just take more effort: Get
two other planes to go up and fly offset trail at same altitude (#2 plane
flies off of #1/leader). These 2 planes will be "2 points establishing a
line" - hopefully a level one, but if not, at least a ref line. Then, the
guy testing his RV-s flare capability lines up these 2 planes, co speed,
then cuts his engine and holds altitude and holds the two planes in line
(eliminates static error of altimeter as AOA changes/increases) - until he
either successfully stalls in a flare, or starts dropping down below
plane/line of the other 2 before stalling - meaning he lacks adequate
elevator authority to flare to a stall - can only flare to whatever IAS he
read when he started dropping below the other two with full back stick.
- Then install vortex generators under your horizontal stab and repeat
the test to see if elevator authority has been increased.
Personally, I'd think a simple test using the altimeter and V/V would be a
good start, even if slightly flawed by static source error.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01(at)rogers.com>; ; <RV>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN AN
RV
AN RV
>
> It's not quite that easy, unfortunately. First off, ground effect
> comes into play, and it affects the amount of lift the wing produces
> (a bit more lift for the same angle of attack if you are in ground
> effect) and the angle of attack at the stall (the wing will stall at
> a bit lower angle of attack in ground effect than out of ground
> effect). The flow over the tail is also affected, so that affects
> the amount of pitching moment generated for any given elevator
> deflection.
>
> And to make things even more difficult, each RV has its own airspeed
> errors. So 60 kt IAS on your RV may be quite a different speed than
> 60 kt IAS on someone else's RV. This is one reason why you see such
> large differences in the approach speeds that people report using.
>
> And to cap it all off, you have to ask your self how you determine at
> altitude whether you have managed to demonstrate satisfactory pitch
> authority to flare. Are you going to look at the altimeter or VSI to
> see if you manage to level the aircraft? If so, you could be
> mislead, because as you approach the stall there is likely a large
> change in the static source position error, and this will affect the
> altimeter error.
>
> So, simulated flares at altitude are really only a good test in cases
> where the aircraft obviously has way more than enough flare
> capability, or where there is almost zero flare capability. A
> simulated flare at altitude is not a very good test if the real
> capability is somewhere in between zero and huge.
>
> Kevin Horton
>
> > IN AN RV
> >
> >Who is going to test this at altitude, of course?
> >
> >Go up high, stop the prop, slow to below 60kts and see if there is
adequate
> >elevator authority to flare. Is it that simple to answer this
> >important issue?
> >Probably ought to bring this up to Van too.
> >
> >hal
> >do annual and panel upgrade or I'd do the test.
> >
> >At 06:19 PM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
> >> AN RV
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Folks,
> >> >Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop
below
> >> >60kts.
> >> >
> >> >Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots.
In
> >> >Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped
props. One
> >> >was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is
that
> >> >both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were
nearly
> >> >identical as follows:
> >> >
> >> >a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure
fuel
> >> >line, cant remember the other).
> >> >b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks
upwind of
> >> >the runways.
> >> >c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop
stopped. In
> >> >RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
> >> >d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to
curve
> >> >away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation
starts at
> >> >this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators.
This
> >> >reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine
> >>with engine
> >> >running.
> >> >e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority
was
> >> >insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
> >> >aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
> >> >f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G.
This
> >> >is a very survivable deceleration, but
> >> >g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the
> >>rear fuselage
> >> >to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
> >> >h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness,
allowing
> >> >both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
> >> >i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed
the
> >> >pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries
to the
> > > >front and back of the head.
> >> >
> >> >Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over
> >>60kts to keep
> >> >the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
> >> >
> >> >Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars
here in
> >> >Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
> >> >
> >> >David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
> >>
> >>Interesting accidents, but I think you have drawn the wrong
> >>conclusion. If the prop is windmilling (i.e. the engine has failed,
> >>but the air is keeping the prop turning), the drag is much higher
> >>than if the prop is stopped. The air actually slows down as it goes
> >>through a windmilling prop. So the inboard wing is likely to stall a
> >>bit earlier than if the prop was stopped, or if the engine was
> >>running. The lower air velocity in the prop wash will also reduce
> >>elevator effectiveness.
> >>
> >>This is the reverse of what happens if the engine is producing power
> >>and it is spinning the prop. In that case the air speeds up as it
> >>goes through the prop, and this increased air velocity helps keep the
> >>inboard wing from stalling, and it increases elevator effectiveness.
> >>
> >>So, the real problem was that the pilots allowed the speed to get too
> >>slow. The fact that the prop stopped actually would have helped
> >>them, but it was not enough of a help to make up for the too slow
> >>speed.
> >>
> >>The real lesson to draw from these accidents is to not let the speed
> >>bleed off below a normal approach speed. Faster is even better.
> >>--
> >>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> >>Ottawa, Canada
> > >http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
> >>
> > >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> AN RV |
| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN |
AN RV
RV
Interesting idea, but you need to look at the flare manoeuvre a bit
differently. The flare is much more than just maintaining level
flight. The aircraft has a fairly high rate of descent at the start
of the flare, and you need to "turn the corner" to convert to level
flight. So you are actually pulling a bit more than 1g - typical
flight test data would probably show around 1.1 to 1.15 g in the
flare, a bit more if you are quite aggressive. So, the wing has to
develop enough lift to pull this g, and the elevator has to have
enough authority to create the pitch rate needed.
Let me give you an example of the potential amount of the static
source error, and you will have a better idea of why it matters.
I've got the POH for a 1978 C182Q, and it shows the stall speed with
full flap at max gross weight as 38 KIAS which equals 50 KCAS. That
12 kt error in speed is due to static source position error. It
translates to an altitude error at the stall of 48 ft (altimeter
reading lower than the real altitude). The recommended speed on
final after an engine failure is 65 KIAS, which equates to 67.5 KCAS,
or an altitude error of 15 ft (altimeter reading lower than the real
altitude). So, as you flare, if you are actually maintaining
altitude in the flare, the altimeter will be dropping about 33 ft.
The airspeed will be dropping quite quickly in the flare, so I would
imagine that this change in altitude error would occur over less than
10 seconds. 33 ft in 10 seconds equals a rate of descent of about
200 ft/mn. If the flare lasts 5 seconds, the indicated descent rate
would be about 400 ft/mn. So, just using altimeter and VSI, how do
you determine whether you have been able to arrest the rate of
descent in the flare? Of course the static source errors in an RV
will probably be different than the C182. Will it be more or less?
We don't know.
Keep the speed up to your normal approach speed if you ever have an
engine failure, and there should be no problems at all. Don't be in
too much of a rush to bring the flaps down, as the extra drag may
lead to a tendency for an airspeed loss, unless you lower the nose
aggressively, which leads to a higher rate of descent.
Kevin Horton
>
>
>Good inputs - but we can still do this - will just take more effort: Get
>two other planes to go up and fly offset trail at same altitude (#2 plane
>flies off of #1/leader). These 2 planes will be "2 points establishing a
>line" - hopefully a level one, but if not, at least a ref line. Then, the
>guy testing his RV-s flare capability lines up these 2 planes, co speed,
>then cuts his engine and holds altitude and holds the two planes in line
>(eliminates static error of altimeter as AOA changes/increases) - until he
>either successfully stalls in a flare, or starts dropping down below
>plane/line of the other 2 before stalling - meaning he lacks adequate
>elevator authority to flare to a stall - can only flare to whatever IAS he
>read when he started dropping below the other two with full back stick.
> - Then install vortex generators under your horizontal stab and repeat
>the test to see if elevator authority has been increased.
>
>Personally, I'd think a simple test using the altimeter and V/V would be a
>good start, even if slightly flawed by static source error.
>
>David
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01(at)rogers.com>; ; <RV>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED - STOPPING THE PROP IN AN
>RV
>
>
> AN RV
>>
>> It's not quite that easy, unfortunately. First off, ground effect
>> comes into play, and it affects the amount of lift the wing produces
>> (a bit more lift for the same angle of attack if you are in ground
>> effect) and the angle of attack at the stall (the wing will stall at
> > a bit lower angle of attack in ground effect than out of ground
>> effect). The flow over the tail is also affected, so that affects
>> the amount of pitching moment generated for any given elevator
>> deflection.
>>
>> And to make things even more difficult, each RV has its own airspeed
>> errors. So 60 kt IAS on your RV may be quite a different speed than
>> 60 kt IAS on someone else's RV. This is one reason why you see such
>> large differences in the approach speeds that people report using.
>>
>> And to cap it all off, you have to ask your self how you determine at
>> altitude whether you have managed to demonstrate satisfactory pitch
>> authority to flare. Are you going to look at the altimeter or VSI to
>> see if you manage to level the aircraft? If so, you could be
>> mislead, because as you approach the stall there is likely a large
>> change in the static source position error, and this will affect the
>> altimeter error.
>>
>> So, simulated flares at altitude are really only a good test in cases
>> where the aircraft obviously has way more than enough flare
>> capability, or where there is almost zero flare capability. A
>> simulated flare at altitude is not a very good test if the real
>> capability is somewhere in between zero and huge.
>>
>> Kevin Horton
>>
>> > IN AN RV
>> >
>> >Who is going to test this at altitude, of course?
>> >
>> >Go up high, stop the prop, slow to below 60kts and see if there is
>adequate
>> >elevator authority to flare. Is it that simple to answer this
>> >important issue?
>> >Probably ought to bring this up to Van too.
>> >
>> >hal
>> >do annual and panel upgrade or I'd do the test.
>> >
>> >At 06:19 PM 3/17/2004, you wrote:
>> >> AN RV
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Folks,
>> >> >Alex Peterson correctly points out that in an RV the prop can stop
>below
>> >> >60kts.
>> >> >
>> >> >Not electrical, but this is an important safety issue for RV pilots.
>In
>> >> >Australia there have been two fatal accidents related to stopped
>props. One
>> >> >was an RV4, the other an RV6 with tip up canopy, the significance is
>that
>> >> >both have the rollover bars behind the pilot. Both accidents were
>nearly
>> >> >identical as follows:
>> >> >
>> >> >a. both had engine failures after takeoff (one caused by an insecure
>fuel
>> >> >line, cant remember the other).
>> >> >b. both made dead stick approaches to quite reasonable paddocks
>upwind of
>> >> >the runways.
>> >> >c. late in both approaches, speed bled below 60kts and the prop
>stopped. In
>> >> >RVs this is aerodynamically significant.
>> >> >d. at the inboard trailing edge of the wings the fuselage starts to
>curve
>> >> >away from the wing. At high angles of attack airflow separation
>starts at
>> >> >this point, and flows aft, over the inboard part of the elevators.
>This
>> >> >reduces elevator authority, with the prop stopped only. Its fine
>> >>with engine
>> >> >running.
>> >> >e. when flaring both aircraft to land the reduced elevator authority
>was
>> >> >insufficient to arrest the rate of descent to normal levels. So both
>> >> >aircraft landed heavy enough to crush the undercarriage.
>> >> >f. without undercarriage the aircraft decelerated at an estimated 4G.
>This
>> >> >is a very survivable deceleration, but
>> >> >g. the longerons at the cockpit buckled outwards, allowing the
>> >>rear fuselage
>> >> >to move forward and to bend upwards nearly 90 degrees.
>> >> >h. the rear fuselage moving forward relaxes the shoulder harness,
>allowing
>> >> >both pilots to flail forward and receive injuries to the forehead.
>> >> >i. as the rear fuselage continued forward the rollover bars crushed
>the
>> >> >pilots head against the instrument panel. So both died from injuries
>to the
>> > > >front and back of the head.
>> >> >
>> >> >Moral of the story, in an RV forced landing you MUST stay over
>> >>60kts to keep
>> >> >the prop going to avoid loss of elevator authority.
> > >> >
>> >> >Sorry for long post, its all as described at recent safety seminars
>here in
>> >> >Australia. The pictures of the wreckage were depressing.
>> >> >
>> >> >David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
>> >>
>> >>Interesting accidents, but I think you have drawn the wrong
>> >>conclusion. If the prop is windmilling (i.e. the engine has failed,
>> >>but the air is keeping the prop turning), the drag is much higher
>> >>than if the prop is stopped. The air actually slows down as it goes
>> >>through a windmilling prop. So the inboard wing is likely to stall a
>> >>bit earlier than if the prop was stopped, or if the engine was
>> >>running. The lower air velocity in the prop wash will also reduce
>> >>elevator effectiveness.
>> >>
>> >>This is the reverse of what happens if the engine is producing power
>> >>and it is spinning the prop. In that case the air speeds up as it
>> >>goes through the prop, and this increased air velocity helps keep the
>> >>inboard wing from stalling, and it increases elevator effectiveness.
>> >>
>> >>So, the real problem was that the pilots allowed the speed to get too
>> >>slow. The fact that the prop stopped actually would have helped
>> >>them, but it was not enough of a help to make up for the too slow
>> >>speed.
>> >>
>> >>The real lesson to draw from these accidents is to not let the speed
>> >>bleed off below a normal approach speed. Faster is even better.
>> >>--
>> >>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>> >>Ottawa, Canada
>> > >http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>> >>
> > > >
>>
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
Bob, et.al.
When I built my wings and vertical Stab, I embedded antenna's in the
structure using the RG-58 coax, bringing the ends out to the root, where a
connector is attached.
I now read that RG-400 is better, can the balance of the run be RG-400, or
should I stickwith the 58?
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <dave(at)davemorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RG-58/RG-400 |
It's OK to mix and match coax of similar impedance.
Dave Morris
At 09:42 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote:
>
>Bob, et.al.
>When I built my wings and vertical Stab, I embedded antenna's in the
>structure using the RG-58 coax, bringing the ends out to the root, where a
>connector is attached.
>
>I now read that RG-400 is better, can the balance of the run be RG-400, or
>should I stickwith the 58?
>
>Bill Schertz
>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie & Tupper England <cengland(at)netdoor.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RG-58/RG-400 |
William wrote:
>
>Bob, et.al.
>When I built my wings and vertical Stab, I embedded antenna's in the
>structure using the RG-58 coax, bringing the ends out to the root, where a
>connector is attached.
>
>I now read that RG-400 is better, can the balance of the run be RG-400, or
>should I stickwith the 58?
>
>Bill Schertz
>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>
Hi Bill,
Either will work fine. They are both 50 ohm; in less than 20 ft the
electrons will never know the difference.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RG-58/RG-400 |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bob answered this before. Go ahead and use the RG 400. We did the same
thing.
> When I built my wings and vertical Stab, I embedded antenna's in the
> structure using the RG-58 coax, bringing the ends out to the root, where
> a connector is attached.
>
> I now read that RG-400 is better, can the balance of the run be RG-400,
> or should I stickwith the 58?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hi There <rv90619(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Current requirements for several common parts |
I've started wiring my plane this weekend. I've got most of it all sorted it out
as far as wire sizes go, except there are a few things I can't find any info
of, although all the diagrams I find have a wire size for them. Those items
are:
Starter relay
Master relay
Van's boost fuel pump
Fuel primer relay
Hobbs meter
Thanks
Cam
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | small high cca batteries |
Hi
I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
Products. 4.4 lbs ea., 5 AH, 250 peak amps. However their web site
www.startstick.com has been closed/under construction for a long time
which makes me wonder if these batteries will be available in the
future. I thought there would be a market for such a battery for small
engine starting but perhaps not.
Are they the only source of such a battery? I have not been able to find
any other sources but perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. Certainly
5AH and similar batteries are available with low discharge rates but I
haven't found any other high current units below about 12AH and 12 lbs.
Batteries with faston connectors are obviously unsuitable.
Comments from anyone who has experience with these batteries or ATP
would be appreciated.
thanks
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PeterHunt1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RV in Living Room - was Stick Switch Overrides |
Hi Bob:
Yes, my RV is still in the living room. Trial fitted the wings over
Christmas which required sliding the tail into the dining room and installing the
wings through the front door. What an adventure. I am working on the engine
installation and expect to move everything to the airport for final assembly in
late summer. Thanks for asking.
I am now EAA Chapter 282 President and Bob Gibson and I will be making a
presentation on "All Electric Panels" at our April meeting. Your disciples are
carrying on well. Thank you and the others on this list for your continued help
and support.
Pete Hunt
Clearwater, FL
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | SL30/SL40 transmit/receive lockout? |
Gentlemen,
I'm about to install an Apollo SL30 nav-com and an Apollo SL40 com into the
same panel using no audio panel. The plan is to use Bob's AeroElectric
Audio Isolation Amplifier and a transmit selector switch labeled Transmit
SL30 / Transmit SL40. I can't find anything in the installation manuals
about a transmit/receive lockout feature to shut off the receiver in one
while the other is transmitting. I'm concerned about this because I read in
the instruction manual for a radio of a different brand (ICOM A200) that
when using two in the same airplane (even with separate antennas) this
transmit/receive interconnect must be accomplished in order to avoid damage
to the receiver sections of the radios. Shed some light here, please!
I spoke with a fellow at GarminAT tech support. He said he knew of no such
feature in these units. Even after I stressed that my concern is for the
receiver sections of the units, he indicated that the problem being
addressed in the ICOM A200 manual is probably related to possible audio
feedback and that audio feedback can somehow expose the OTHER radio's
receiver section to damage?!?!???. However, I'm still confused and
unconvinced. How can AUDIO isolation of the two units protect the RECEIVER
section of one radio from the radiated energy from the other radio's
transmitter?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
Bob,
If you've seen the instruction "manual" (really a foldout that is the
equivalent of 8 pages) you've seen everything I've seen. That's all that
came with the unit, new from AS&S Co.. I suspect the setup is like the
older KX97 (96?) Bendix King com, because, if I'm not mistaken, it's a
"slide-in replacement". At any rate, for several reasons, I'm planning to
return the unit to AS&S. I'll replace it with an SL40. I bought the A200
because it is over $500 cheaper than the SL40, but it doesn't look so great
stacked with my SL30 and SL70. It's also heavier that the SL30, even
thought the A200 is just a com and the SL30 is a nav-com. And I like the
D-sub connectors on the SL units better that the connectors on the A200.
Also, the Apollo units are rated for input voltage of 10 to 40 volts. In
the unlikely event of a voltage surge, they seem more likely to survive than
the A200, which lists input voltage of 13.8V +or- 15%.
Thanks for your attention!
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Instrument adaptating queations .... |
Boys and girls,
I have a situation with my Velocity that I need some help on. I have 6
Cyberdyne 2-1/8 instruments (oil press, temp, outside temp, L, R fuel qty,
volts, etc.) with 5/8 LED readout and would like to add a couple and change a
couple. However, what I want to do is a little out of my electronically
challenged depth.
I have generic float type fuel quantity senders that are abysmally
inaccurate. I want to change them to capacitive unites so popular these days,
but I dont know if the display mechanism is compatible with the senders.
When I call the capacitive fuel sender folks and ask about this, I anticipate
they will want to no some engineering specs on the display. I need to know
what kinds of questions to ask the display folks.
I want to install a load meter (actually, I want to install two shunts on the
firewall: one in the alternator output circuit and one in the line going to
all the buss on the panel, selectable through a DPDT switch). My battery and
all my heavy cable is back on the firewall. I want to get a couple of the B&C
shunts that Bob touts and wire to a remote indicator on the panel. To do
this, if it were an analog meter, I would have to gut a voltmeter or ammeter
down to the basic galvanometer and match it to the shunt. For digital
indicators, I dont know what I will have to do to match indicator
characteristics with shunt attributes. Again, I need to know what to ask the
B&C guys about their shunts and what to ask the Cyberdyne guys about their
indicator.
I hate to be the doofus middle man between two guys who know what theyre
doing, but dont see any viable alternative. Any suggestions how to handle
this .... Jim S.
--
Jim Sower ... Destiny's Plaything
Crossville, TN; Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
I have a B&C firwall mounted grounding block to be mounted in my RV. I would like
to pentrate the firewall down low (just above the cockpit floor) with the
negative cable from the battery (located aft). I would not like to locate the
grounding block down there.
Since the firewall is made of SS, can I terminate the negative cable down low with
a suitable bolt, and locate my grounding block at a more accessable location
(up higher)? Or, do I need to run a #2 jumper on the engine side to connect
the two?
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n3eu(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations .... |
Jim Sower wrote:
> I have a situation with my Velocity that I need some help on. I have 6
> Cyberdyne 2-1/8 instruments (oil press, temp, outside temp, L, R fuel qty,
> volts, etc.) with 5/8 LED readout and would like to add a couple and change a
> couple. However, what I want to do is a little out of my electronically
> challenged depth.
>
> I have generic float type fuel quantity senders that are abysmally
> inaccurate. I want to change them to capacitive unites so popular these days...
Capacitive senders can have considerable innacuracy too, if you will be using different
brands/types of fuel. One can look it up, but the dielectric constant
of gasolines varies all over the lot.
I just found it curious, on my new '04 Solara -- and while Toyota has used electronic
senders -- the Solara has a simple float and rheostat of olden days. Bet
it's the "miles remaining" display option, which is more uncannily accurate
than I would have bet even a beer on. For sure sender reading is linearized
and/or adjusted for tank geometry by its Hal 2000 computer. Hal even chews on
engine vibration data from engine mount sensors, taking whatever corrective action
the service manual doesn't say in 1,000 pages of diagnostics info. One really
smooth running V-6 though, and I doubt it's a cost issue for Toyota on this
poor man's Lexus class of vehicle.
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n3eu(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
Unless someone can favorably report actual experience, I'm leery even two of these
are going to work, much less provide enough assured airworthiness for an engine
which needs juice to fly. "Peak amps" I don't think are cranking amps,
but likely akin to short circuit amps like Odyssey publishes as a spec -- two
very different numbers. OK for hopefully enough kick for emergency automobile
starts, but I bet other issues will soon surface.
Fred F.
klehman(at)albedo.net wrote:
> I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
> Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
> to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
> Products. 4.4 lbs ea., 5 AH, 250 peak amps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: starter relay testing |
>
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s702wire.jpg
Also not schematics for battery master contactors and starter
contactors in Z-figurs. Starter contactors ground their coils
through the base connection . . . continuous duty battery
contactors connect to isolated terminals and don't use the
base ground.
>Hi Bob ;
>
>I'm afraid that, yes, you're missing something and probably didn't get
>any "bad ones". Most starter solenoids have two "big" terminals which
>carry the heavy battery current to the starter motor. One goes to the
>battery (or battery contactor) the other goes to the starter. It doesn't
>normally matter which is which, they are interchangeable. Many also have
>two "small" terminals as is the case with the one you describe. Many
>times the ones with two small terminals are automotive starter
>solenoids. One of the small terminals is connected to the solenoid
>winding while the other end of the winding is almost always connected to
>ground. (in other words the "frame" of the solenoid) In order to
>energize the solenoid you must connect power between the correct small
>terminal and ground of the solenoid. (its frame) The other small
>terminal is used in the automotive application to bypass the ignition
>ballast resistor in order to increase spark intensity for starting. In
>an aircraft application this terminal is normally not used , but could,
>if desired, be employed to power a "starter engaged" light. It will
>become "live" when the solenoid is engaged. In starter solenoids with
>only one small terminal the other side of the winding is also grounded
>to the solenoid frame and thus the frame becomes one side of the
>electrical circuit in these types also. You can experiment safely to
>determine which is the "correct" small terminal by grounding the
>solenoid frame to your negative battery terminal and then connecting the
>positive battery terminal to one of the small terminals. The correct
>one will cause the solenoid to engage with an audible snap, the
>incorrect one will do nothing. The fan motor "load" you describe will
>"test" the large contacts for you as you intended. You can measure the
>coil resistance with your ohm meter but the coil is connected between
>one of the small terminals and ground not between the two small
>terminals. The test results you describe sound correct, the results you
>are getting are exactly as they should be, and I suspect your solenoid
>is probably working perfectly when properly connected.
>
>Bob McC
>
>Bob Bittner wrote:
>
> >
> >I have a starter relay/solenoid from Aircraft Spruce, and I'm wondering if
> >there's more to the these things than I thought. In a bench test,
> >applying 12V from my battery to the front 2 small terminals yields no
> >response. There is no continuity between these terminals. I wired it up
> >as expected, and it doesn't do anything when switched on. It's not hooked
> >to the starter motor, so on the output a 12V, 1A fan (for some load). .
> >The reason I'm asking is because the first one I got from them had the
> >same inoperative characteristics, and this one's a replacement. Shouldn't
> >I be able to measure some resistance across the coil? For example, on the
> >one they sent me for a master relay, there's 15ohms of resistance, which
> >seems ok, but more draw than I'd like. Did I just get 2 bad ones, or am I
> >missing something?
> >Thanks.
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
>
>Hi
>
>I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
>Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
>to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
>Products. 4.4 lbs ea., 5 AH, 250 peak amps. However their web site
>www.startstick.com has been closed/under construction for a long time
>which makes me wonder if these batteries will be available in the
>future. I thought there would be a market for such a battery for small
>engine starting but perhaps not.
>
>Are they the only source of such a battery? I have not been able to find
>any other sources but perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. Certainly
>5AH and similar batteries are available with low discharge rates but I
>haven't found any other high current units below about 12AH and 12 lbs.
>Batteries with faston connectors are obviously unsuitable.
>
>Comments from anyone who has experience with these batteries or ATP
>would be appreciated.
I believe the Start Stick was based on the Bolder thin film
technology batteries which didn't fly in the market and the
company folded a couple of years ago.
Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
business.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ground block |
>
>I have a B&C firwall mounted grounding block to be mounted in my RV. I
>would like to pentrate the firewall down low (just above the cockpit
>floor) with the negative cable from the battery (located aft). I would
>not like to locate the grounding block down there.
>Since the firewall is made of SS, can I terminate the negative cable down
>low with a suitable bolt, and locate my grounding block at a more
>accessable location (up higher)? Or, do I need to run a #2 jumper on the
>engine side to connect the two?
Why "penetrate" the firewall with the battery (-) cable?
Just take it to the ground block bolt on the inside of the
cabin. Ground engine to same bolt with bonding jumper.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List |
>
>Anyone know the Radio Shack # for the inductro used to filter noisy devices.
>I have a Turn Coordinator that has to be silenced
>
>Thanks
>
>Rino
see http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/filter.html
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ground block |
> >I have a B&C firwall mounted grounding block to be mounted in my RV. I
> >would like to pentrate the firewall down low (just above the cockpit
> >floor) with the negative cable from the battery (located aft). I would
> >not like to locate the grounding block down there.
> >Since the firewall is made of SS, can I terminate the negative cable down
> >low with a suitable bolt, and locate my grounding block at a more
> >accessable location (up higher)? Or, do I need to run a #2 jumper on the
> >engine side to connect the two?
>
> Why "penetrate" the firewall with the battery (-) cable?
> Just take it to the ground block bolt on the inside of the
> cabin. Ground engine to same bolt with bonding jumper.
>
> Bob . . .
My airplane has a natural route to run the battery cables forward. It
is basically along the floor, through the spar cut out for the control stick
linkages, and then forward to the firewall. Now to run it from the floor at
the firewall up to where it is convenient to have all the grounds com
together for the instrument panel and on the forward side, engine
compartment, I would have to have this big #2 wire running up the inside of
the panel, through a very full space loaded with things like brake pedals,
hoses, wires, fuse panels, voltage regualtors, avionics, control cables and
heater hoses. However, I could do it that way if you think it best. I just
thought using a bolt the size of the one on the ground block to attach the
cable to the firewall down low would be easier, lighter and be a more
professional looking install.
Thanks,
Jim
========================================================================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Johnathan Macy's question: Dual Batteries & Dual Electronic |
Ignition
Bob, did you miss this one?
Tue Mar 16 - 5:50 PM JOHNATHAN MACY Dual Batteries & Dual Electronic
Ignition
Mark Banus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ground block |
>
> > >I have a B&C firwall mounted grounding block to be mounted in my RV. I
> > >would like to pentrate the firewall down low (just above the cockpit
> > >floor) with the negative cable from the battery (located aft). I would
> > >not like to locate the grounding block down there.
> > >Since the firewall is made of SS, can I terminate the negative cable down
> > >low with a suitable bolt, and locate my grounding block at a more
> > >accessable location (up higher)? Or, do I need to run a #2 jumper on the
> > >engine side to connect the two?
> >
> > Why "penetrate" the firewall with the battery (-) cable?
> > Just take it to the ground block bolt on the inside of the
> > cabin. Ground engine to same bolt with bonding jumper.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
> My airplane has a natural route to run the battery cables forward. It
>is basically along the floor, through the spar cut out for the control stick
>linkages, and then forward to the firewall. Now to run it from the floor at
>the firewall up to where it is convenient to have all the grounds com
>together for the instrument panel and on the forward side, engine
>compartment, I would have to have this big #2 wire running up the inside of
>the panel, through a very full space loaded with things like brake pedals,
>hoses, wires, fuse panels, voltage regualtors, avionics, control cables and
>heater hoses. However, I could do it that way if you think it best. I just
>thought using a bolt the size of the one on the ground block to attach the
>cable to the firewall down low would be easier, lighter and be a more
>professional looking install.
That would work. I take some effort to torque mounting hardware
for ground block up to recommended structural maximums for the
hardware sizes. You're using firewall sheet to make the connection.
A jumber between the lower joint and ground block wouldn't hurt
but I don't think it's necessary. With charging,cranking
and outlying airframe currents flowing through the lower joint, it
will be okay to use the firewall sheet to carry currents for panel
mounted hardware to the lower joint.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations .... |
>
>Boys and girls,
>I have a situation with my Velocity that I need some help on. I have 6
>Cyberdyne 2-1/8 instruments (oil press, temp, outside temp, L, R fuel qty,
>volts, etc.) with 5/8 LED readout and would like to add a couple and change a
>couple. However, what I want to do is a little out of my electronically
>challenged depth.
>
>I have generic float type fuel quantity senders that are abysmally
>inaccurate. I want to change them to capacitive unites so popular these days,
>but I dont know if the display mechanism is compatible with the senders.
probably not
>When I call the capacitive fuel sender folks and ask about this, I anticipate
>they will want to no some engineering specs on the display. I need to know
>what kinds of questions to ask the display folks.
if you have indicators, you need to tell them what the resistance
and full-scale current characteristics are of the indicators.
>I want to install a load meter (actually, I want to install two shunts on the
>firewall: one in the alternator output circuit and one in the line going to
>all the buss on the panel, selectable through a DPDT switch). My battery and
>all my heavy cable is back on the firewall. I want to get a couple of the B&C
>shunts that Bob touts and wire to a remote indicator on the panel. To do
>this, if it were an analog meter, I would have to gut a voltmeter or ammeter
>down to the basic galvanometer and match it to the shunt.
Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf
shunts. For switching between two shunts of different current
values, you can do either dual-scale instrument or a single
scale marked in %. You could label the switch something like
ALT 60A, Bus 40A or, if they're both the same size shunt, just
adjust the scale plate to reflect that value. I can supply
you an instrument as illustrated here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Loadmeter_2.jpg
> For digital
>indicators, I dont know what I will have to do to match indicator
>characteristics with shunt attributes. Again, I need to know what to ask the
>B&C guys about their shunts and what to ask the Cyberdyne guys about their
>indicator.
The shuts are 50 mv, your instrument needs to present the appropriate
full scale value when 50 mv is applied to the instrument.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SL30/SL40 transmit/receive lockout? |
>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>I'm about to install an Apollo SL30 nav-com and an Apollo SL40 com into the
>same panel using no audio panel. The plan is to use Bob's AeroElectric
>Audio Isolation Amplifier and a transmit selector switch labeled Transmit
>SL30 / Transmit SL40. I can't find anything in the installation manuals
>about a transmit/receive lockout feature to shut off the receiver in one
>while the other is transmitting. I'm concerned about this because I read in
>the instruction manual for a radio of a different brand (ICOM A200) that
>when using two in the same airplane (even with separate antennas) this
>transmit/receive interconnect must be accomplished in order to avoid damage
>to the receiver sections of the radios. Shed some light here, please!
it's not a damage issue but one of feedback and/or severe overloading
of the radio in "receive" mode that may take several seconds for it to
recover . . . or the overloaded receiver may go into fits and howls . . .
but probably not.
>I spoke with a fellow at GarminAT tech support. He said he knew of no such
>feature in these units.
because it doesn't need it
> Even after I stressed that my concern is for the
>receiver sections of the units, he indicated that the problem being
>addressed in the ICOM A200 manual is probably related to possible audio
>feedback and that audio feedback can somehow expose the OTHER radio's
>receiver section to damage?!?!???. However, I'm still confused and
>unconvinced. How can AUDIO isolation of the two units protect the RECEIVER
>section of one radio from the radiated energy from the other radio's
>transmitter?
There's no risk of physical damage. Wire it up and see what the
receiving transceiver does when you transmit on the other. You probably
won't have to do anything special.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> parts |
| Subject: | Re: Current requirements for several common |
parts
parts
>
>
>I've started wiring my plane this weekend. I've got most of it all sorted
>it out as far as wire sizes go, except there are a few things I can't find
>any info of, although all the diagrams I find have a wire size for
>them. Those items are:
>
>
>Starter relay 4A but not part of a RUNNING LOAD
>
>Master relay 0.8A continuous in all modes except battery only via e-bus
>alternate feed
>
>Van's boost fuel pump Intermitant . . . use 1A
>
>Fuel primer relay Itermittant . . . figure 0.2A
>
>Hobbs meter Insignifanct. Use 0.01A continuous
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Cliff" <mx(at)crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Connector Identification |
I have a strobe pwer supply (Nova EPS-404) whose lamp connectors are described
as 'Mate-n-lok', but which don't seem to resemble the forms of Amp mate-n-lok
commonly on sale in the UK..
The plug moulding, with socket contacts, is marked "AMP CPS-3". Can anyone
identify this connector more closely - I want to buy the other halves ?
John Cliff
Europa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring the SD8 Warning light |
>
>I'm wiring the SD8 as a backup alternator. The B&C wiring diagram
>includes an alternator warning light fed from the S704 relay, which
>seemed like a good idea until I tried to follow Bob's Z13. B&C has you
>wire the SD8 output to the battery master bus which turns the warning
>light off with the master switch, but if you wire, per Z13, the light
>remains on regardless since the output is wired to the battery. Is there
>any issue/problem in wiring the SD output to the essential bus so that the
>light will turn off with the master?
wire it per Z-13 and leave the light off (you'll note that it's not
shown on Z-13 while it is shown on Figure Z-16). The warning light
is not useful for a Z-13 installation.
>Also, have there been any EMI issues with SD8 subpanel components,
>including the regulator, capacitor and relay. I ask since they are
>relatively close to my instruments.
not that I've heard of.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n3eu(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Connector Identification |
Did you try www.amp.com (division of Tyco)? Tried it quickly but seems you
may need "CPS 3" w/o the hyphen in keyword search, but I'll let you do
further mouse-click boogie. In the U.S, my source for AMP stuff is
digi-key.com.
Reg,
Fred F.
> I have a strobe power supply (Nova EPS-404) whose lamp connectors are
> described as 'Mate-n-lok', but which don't seem to resemble the forms
> of Amp mate-n-lok commonly on sale in the UK..
>
> The plug moulding, with socket contacts, is marked "AMP CPS-3". Can anyone
> identify this connector more closely - I want to buy the other halves ?
>
> John Cliff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Fuel Flow gauge ... |
Does anyone have any experience with the Micro-1000 Mizer fuel flow gauge on p-363
of the
ASS catalog? I'm considering one but would like to hear recommendations for and
against if
anyone has any first- or second-hand info.
Thanks ... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fuel Flow gauge ... |
| From: | "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)commander.com> |
if it is the same as http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/fuelmizer.php
I understand that they are quite good, the instrument is made by Navman in New
Zealand, as a marine instrument, and they make a special modified flow transducer
that is set up to cope with Avgas.
They are about $300 Australian, which would be about $230USD plus shipping from
some Australasian sites.
I am instilling the big brother, that does dual flow, and also is GPS integrated,
search for NAVMAN fuel flow, and you should find it.
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
Sower
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow gauge ...
Does anyone have any experience with the Micro-1000 Mizer fuel flow gauge on p-363
of the
ASS catalog? I'm considering one but would like to hear recommendations for and
against if
anyone has any first- or second-hand info.
Thanks ... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations .... |
<... Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf shunts. For switching
between two shunts of different current values, you can do either dual-scale instrument
or a
single ...>
Movements are well and good. I can understand that. What I'm trying to adapt
is a digital
display. How do I reduce a digital display to a 50mv galvanometer? That was the
original
question. I've got digital displays that massage the input (volts, gallons, deg
F, whatever)
and display it numerically. How do I modify a digital voltmeter to display amps
across a
shunt?
Still wonderin' .... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | LSE Plasma III electrical noise |
I thought I was finished with the installation of my LSE Plasma III into my
all composite Q-200. I am running the one mag/one electronic system. I
went out for the test flight, but the tower was unable to read me.
"Aircraft calling ground, unreadable".
After I fiddled with the squelch, I found there was a mid-range tone, quite
loud, whenever I had the LSE switched ON. I shut down the engine and found
the same thing; the noise was just as bad. (I have a Wag-Aero ICS Plus
Nav/Com, about 12 years old).
I called Klaus and he said I was picking up inductive coupling from the
oscillator. I admit I had diverted from his instructions just a little bit.
For the 12V supply I ran an unshielded wire from the battery to a 5A breaker
in the panel. From there, his shielded wire runs to the LSE brain box. The
shielded ground wire runs from the brain box to the ground buss, which is
mounted about 18" aft of the firewall. His instructions say it should go
all the way to the battery.
My com antenna lead is RG58 and it runs in intimate proximity with the
unshielded 12V supply line to the battery. The com antenna is in the
vertical stab, and the battery is in the baggage compartment, aft of the
passenger seat.
Klaus suggested separating the com antenna leads from any power leads, and
run shielded wire, straight to the battery per plans, including the CB. That
is what I now intend to do.
Any more thoughts or suggestions?
Sam Hoskins
Quickie Q-200 ~1,350 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klehman(at)albedo.net |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/22/04 |
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
>>Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
>>to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
>>Products. 4.4 lbs ea., 5 AH, 250 peak amps. However their web site
>>www.startstick.com has been closed/under construction for a long time
>>which makes me wonder if these batteries will be available in the
>>future. I thought there would be a market for such a battery for small
>>engine starting but perhaps not.
>>
>>Are they the only source of such a battery? I have not been able to find
>>any other sources but perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. Certainly
>>5AH and similar batteries are available with low discharge rates but I
>>haven't found any other high current units below about 12AH and 12 lbs.
>>Batteries with faston connectors are obviously unsuitable.
>>
>>Comments from anyone who has experience with these batteries or ATP
>>would be appreciated.
>
>
> I believe the Start Stick was based on the Bolder thin film
> technology batteries which didn't fly in the market and the
> company folded a couple of years ago.
>
> Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
> and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
> If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
> business.
>
> Bob . . .
Thank you Fred and Bob for your comments.
I strongly suspect that these ATP batteries are not actually TFT
batteries. The numbers for the 5AH unit scale up with weight to about
exactly what they claim for their 13 AH battery. The specs for their
13AH unit look to be pretty much the same as for an odyssey PC545. The
PC545 is 13AH and 545 amps for 5 secs compared to 650 amps instantaneous
for the ATP 13 AH battery which sounds pretty similar. I'd expect a lot
more from a TFT. (If the less than two lb. 1000 amp startstick TFT
batteries had panned out, they'd of been lighter than starter cables and
I'm sure we'd be mounting one right on the starter. :) )
There is a statement in the "book" that says that a 10AH RG battery will
crank any sport aviation engine. That seems reasonable and makes me
think that two 5AH units might be satisfactory. No doubt with a shorter
life span though which I think is part of what you are both telling me.
I can't seem to justify the weight of two 17 AH batteries at 15 lb. ea.
though. Even the PC545 are 12 lb ea (and darned expensive). OK so if
dual 5AH units are out I guess its back to a Z-13 configuration.
Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
that possible. A small computer battery if need be. That would also
achieve the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
thanks
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/22/04 |
Some comments from a particular experience below ...
James
[SNIP]
> There is a statement in the "book" that says that a 10AH RG battery will
> crank any sport aviation engine. That seems reasonable and makes me
> think that two 5AH units might be satisfactory. No doubt with a shorter
> life span though which I think is part of what you are both telling me.
This is probably very true for a well tuned, warm engine. But, be advised
also that there **WILL** be cases when a "relatively new (months)" 17AH
battery will not crank an O-320/O-360. [Your engine may take a lot less
juice]
January 2002 in Atlanta at a Formation Seminar, several of us had to get
"jumpstarts" after a "cold" overnight on the ramp. And I know that two of
these planes (and their engines) were only a few months old.
After trying three different "cheaper" batteries, we ended up with the
Odyssey PC680 (17 AH). So far, a year later, it seems to work fine. I have
not had a chance to try it under the same conditions of being "out in the
cold" overnight.
Your mileage on your engine may vary.
>
> I can't seem to justify the weight of two 17 AH batteries at 15 lb. ea.
> though. Even the PC545 are 12 lb ea (and darned expensive). OK so if
> dual 5AH units are out I guess its back to a Z-13 configuration.
I am implementing Z-14 on a current project. Bought a PC545 (I think) to
play around with as I was considering two of them. When the dust settled
(for ME), I decided that dual PC680's were the way to go. Known quantity.
Known mounting methods. Not that much space saving in the way in which I was
mounting it. A few more pounds for an enhanced peace of mind (for ME). I
will look into other ways to reduce my **takeoff weight** ... including
removing 10, 20, ?? pounds from ME.
Just a different viewpoint for consideration.
James
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Jurotich <mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | 3 Questions for Bob |
Bob
1) You said in a reply to send my LR3C-14 voltage regulator. and you would
upgrade it to the newer configuration. Can you check out its proper
functioning at the same time? I expect to pay for this, how much? The
address I have is
6936 Bainbridge Road
Wichita, KS 67226-1008
Is this correct?
2) Will this W31X2M1G5 switch breaker be OK for the 5 amp pullable breaker
for the field wire to LR3C-14 voltage regulator? It is half the price of
the pullable breaker from B&C.
3) Do you have a kit for the poor man's battery tester or a cartoon of how
to build one. I have finally found an 120 volt AC electric clock. I have
not held a soldering iron for forty years and I was not real skillful back
then.
Thanks
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Swales contractor to the
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mail to:
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-7021
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations .... pts rule |
As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply (battery),
you simply measure the voltage across the shunt:
Amps = Volts / Ohms.
Example:
You measure 0.1 volts across a 0.05 ohm shunt.
0.1 / 0.05 = 2 Amps.
It's that simple.
It's called Ohm's Law.
And you don't have "amps across a shunt", it's "amps through a shunt".
Current (amps) flows through a resistance (ohms) which generates a
voltage (volts) across it.
Finn
Jim Sower wrote:
>
><... Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf shunts. For
switching
>between two shunts of different current values, you can do either dual-scale instrument
or a
>single ...>
>Movements are well and good. I can understand that. What I'm trying to adapt
is a digital
>display. How do I reduce a digital display to a 50mv galvanometer? That was
the original
>question. I've got digital displays that massage the input (volts, gallons, deg
F, whatever)
>and display it numerically. How do I modify a digital voltmeter to display amps
across a
>shunt?
>
>Still wonderin' .... Jim S.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating questions |
As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply (battery),
you simply measure the voltage across the shunt:
Amps = Volts / Ohms.
Example:
You measure 0.1 volts across a 0.05 ohm shunt.
0.1 / 0.05 = 2 Amps.
It's that simple.
It's called Ohm's Law.
And you don't have "amps across a shunt", it's "amps through a shunt".
Current (amps) flows through a resistance (ohms) which generates a
voltage (volts) across it.
Finn
Jim Sower wrote:
>
><... Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf shunts. For
switching
>between two shunts of different current values, you can do either dual-scale instrument
or a
>single ...>
>Movements are well and good. I can understand that. What I'm trying to adapt
is a digital
>display. How do I reduce a digital display to a 50mv galvanometer? That was
the original
>question. I've got digital displays that massage the input (volts, gallons, deg
F, whatever)
>and display it numerically. How do I modify a digital voltmeter to display amps
across a
>shunt?
>
>Still wonderin' .... Jim S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam(at)matronics.com>) |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - |
03/22/04
(by way of Matt Dralle )
>
> >>
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
> >>Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
> >>to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
> The
>PC545 is 13AH and 545 amps for 5 secs compared to 650 amps instantaneous
>for the ATP 13 AH battery which sounds pretty similar. I'd expect a lot
>more from a TFT. (If the less than two lb. 1000 amp startstick TFT
>batteries had panned out, they'd of been lighter than starter cables and
>I'm sure we'd be mounting one right on the starter. :) )
>
>There is a statement in the "book" that says that a 10AH RG battery will
>crank any sport aviation engine. That seems reasonable and makes me
>think that two 5AH units might be satisfactory. No doubt with a shorter
>life span though which I think is part of what you are both telling me.
Not necessarily ANY 10 AH battery. B&C tested a product some years
ago on a high-compression, aerobatic aircraft and observed 5
cranking intervals that would have been expected to get the engine
going. It's a given that small batteries will have a shorter
service life than larger batteries in any given installation
that cranks engines.
>I can't seem to justify the weight of two 17 AH batteries at 15 lb. ea.
>though. Even the PC545 are 12 lb ea (and darned expensive). OK so if
>dual 5AH units are out I guess its back to a Z-13 configuration.
Where are you seeing the 5AH batteries? The smallest cranking
battery B&C offers today is 12 ah at 11 pounds. See:
http://www.bandc.biz/BC103-1.pdf
while cruising the net on batteries . . . ran across
these folks:
http://www.batcap.net/
They package very large value capacitors to store energy up
to and including cranking currents. I'm looking into an application
at RAC for these (tooling . . . not flight hardware).
>Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
>alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
>that possible.
??? don't understand how this is useful
> A small computer battery if need be. That would also
>achieve the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
What is the failure mode you worry about with
Z-13 as published?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
> and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
> If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
Bob, do you or does anybody else on this list happen to know what one of these
batteries might weigh? I'm way to early to be buying one but I'm trying to
figure out where they'll go and I'd like to know how they would affect my W&B.
Since I'm a very light pilot I'm considering putting them up front (this is a
pusher, so the decision is important).
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
> > If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> > in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> > robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
DigiKey has a 20 Ah by Panasonic the same exact size at the 17 Ah, weighs
1/10 lb. more and is a few more dollars. My guess is a thinner case. One spins
my low comp. O-320 as low as 40 deg. even with an ancient Delco (Prestolite)
ungeared starter. Panasonic pt. # is LC-X1220P. Here's the cat. page:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/1117.pdf
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
* AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman(at)albedo.net
Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
that possible. A small computer battery if need be. That would also achieve
the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
thanks
Ken
Ken,
In my RV-6 I modified the "All Electric On a Budget" system such that the
SD-8 circuit includes a small .8(that's 8/10ths)AH battery and is completely
independent of the main electrical system. However, the SD-8 does not
produce much current below about 1500 RPM, which may be of concern if it is
used to power a second electronic ignition. (I use one mag.)
Ken Harrill
Rv-6, 300 hours
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
Matt,
As well as I recall, it does not come online at all until around 1500 RPM. I
don't remember if it subsequently goes off line if the RPM is lowered. My
habit is to check during runup, not at idle. I will check when I get a
chance to fly again.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300 hours
Columbia, SC
A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
Matt-
N34RD
Matt,
Last weekend I remembered to check the SD-8 at lower RPM's. The voltage
drops off gradually below 1500 RPM's, reaching 12 volts at about 1200 RPM's.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300+ hours
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations |
Finn,
<... As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply
(battery), you simply measure the voltage across the shunt ...>
I don't know if it has it's own power supply. There's a
voltmeter that measures volts, a fuel quantity indicator that
measures volts across a pot (rheostat on a float lever) and is
calibrated somehow in gals, a temperature indicator measures
voltage drop across another variable resistance, as does a
pressure indicator. Trouble is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the
decisions as to what to display under what conditions are made
in a chip that is hard coded for the particular task in
conjunction with a particular transducer.
The manufacturer won't divulge the finer points of the internal
design, but it doesn't make any difference if, as seems to be
the case, I have to burn a special chip to match the transducer
and drive the display. I cannot do that, the manufacturer
won't, and I don't know anyone who can or will. I'll just have
to have that one analog gauge in the middle of my digital
cluster or else do without.
It was pretty much a shot in the dark anyway ... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Jim,
Have you looked through this article?
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0201/KP0201.htm
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Finn,
> <... As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply
> (battery), you simply measure the voltage across the shunt ...>
>
> I don't know if it has it's own power supply. There's a
> voltmeter that measures volts, a fuel quantity indicator that
> measures volts across a pot (rheostat on a float lever) and is
> calibrated somehow in gals, a temperature indicator measures
> voltage drop across another variable resistance, as does a
> pressure indicator. Trouble is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the
> decisions as to what to display under what conditions are made
> in a chip that is hard coded for the particular task in
> conjunction with a particular transducer.
>
> The manufacturer won't divulge the finer points of the internal
> design, but it doesn't make any difference if, as seems to be
> the case, I have to burn a special chip to match the transducer
> and drive the display. I cannot do that, the manufacturer
> won't, and I don't know anyone who can or will. I'll just have
> to have that one analog gauge in the middle of my digital
> cluster or else do without.
>
> It was pretty much a shot in the dark anyway ... Jim S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hi There <rv90619(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | King wiring questions |
I've got a few questions about wiring my KT76a, KX125, KI208, and an ITC-402P intercom.
I have the pin diagrams for each of these, but the terms don't seem to
always line up. The ones I'm having problems with are:
**KX125 PINS**
COM AUDIO IN
COM AUDIO HI
COM AUDIO LOW
COM DET AUDIO OUT
COM REMOTE XFR
NAV AUDIO OUT HI
NAV AUDIO OUT LO
NAV AUDIO IN
NAV REMOTE XFR
(Do one of these go to the intercom? My intercom only calls for one input from
the radio)
VOR/LOC COMPOSITE IN
VOR/LOC COMPOSITE OUT
(which one goes to the VOR/LOC INPUT on the KI208?)
ILS GROUND
(does this go with ILS COMMON on the KI208? If not what goes to the ILS COMMON?)
**KT76A PINS**
D4 (My encoder doesn't have an output for this, do I need it?)
**KI208**
On the KI208 the + LEFT OUTPUT and the + RIGHT OUTPUT are labeled as outputs for
the auto pilot. There are no other left or right pins in the diagram. I assume
that these are also the inputs from the nav radio. If not how does the VOR
head know left and right, or am I just missing something here?
Thanks for any help in finishing up my wiring. I've had a really
hard time getting info from the King website. I got my diagrams from Electric Bob's
site.
Thanks
Cam
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
Coming "on line" and producing useful power are two different
things. The SD-8 can be expected to produce just enough voltage
to show some output current (just above current battery voltage)
at or just below "minimum speed for regulation." This is where
the loadmeter just ticks upward or the alternator raises bus
voltage by some small but observable amount.
Given that the SD-8 is RPM limited by vacuum pump pad output speeds
to some value much less than the 12A it delivers as a gear or belt
driven power source in other applications, one can expect not to get
full output current from the SD-8 at anything other than max cruise
RPM.
Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>Matt,
>
>As well as I recall, it does not come online at all until around 1500 RPM. I
>don't remember if it subsequently goes off line if the RPM is lowered. My
>habit is to check during runup, not at idle. I will check when I get a
>chance to fly again.
>
>Ken Harrill
>RV-6, 300 hours
>Columbia, SC
>
>
>A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
>out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
>or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
>is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
>bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
>
>Matt-
>N34RD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM Alternator |
>
>
>* AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman(at)albedo.net
>
>
>Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
>alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
>that possible. A small computer battery if need be. That would also achieve
>the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
>thanks
>Ken
>
>Ken,
>In my RV-6 I modified the "All Electric On a Budget" system such that the
>SD-8 circuit includes a small .8(that's 8/10ths)AH battery and is completely
>independent of the main electrical system. However, the SD-8 does not
>produce much current below about 1500 RPM, which may be of concern if it is
>used to power a second electronic ignition. (I use one mag.)
'Much' isn't very quantified. What kind of redundancy is being sought?
I presume the main alternator is a modern, lightweight design that's
already 10x more dependable than certified junk. There's an RG battery
on board that will receive better than certified preventative maintenance.
These two features alone offer MTBF numbers that leave spam cans in
the dirt (or should I say "dark"). Adding the SD-8 on top of this
combination gives us failure tolerance unequaled in any certified ship
and 99% of the OBAM aircraft flying.
I'm mystified as to what failure mode(s) are being stacked together
to generate such concerns. Mind you, I'm not trying to convince
anyone to do (or not do) anything they wish with their airplanes.
My concern is for lurkers on the list that read various threads
of obsession and wonder if they should obsessing too.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
> > and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
> > If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> > in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> > robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
>
>Bob, do you or does anybody else on this list happen to know what one of
>these
>batteries might weigh? I'm way to early to be buying one but I'm trying to
>figure out where they'll go and I'd like to know how they would affect my
>W&B.
>Since I'm a very light pilot I'm considering putting them up front (this is a
>pusher, so the decision is important).
The 3 x 3 x 7 format batteries are in the 14# range. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/lc-rd1217p.pdf
for a typical battery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 3 Questions for Bob |
>
>
>Bob
>
>1) You said in a reply to send my LR3C-14 voltage regulator. and you would
>upgrade it to the newer configuration. Can you check out its proper
>functioning at the same time? I expect to pay for this, how much? The
>address I have is
>
>6936 Bainbridge Road
>Wichita, KS 67226-1008
>
>Is this correct?
First, we need to be sure it's in need of an upgrade. I don't
have a test stand here. you'd need to send it to B&C for
full functional testing. The "upgrade" I'm thinking of has
to do with changing a resistor value to reduce if not eliminate
nuisance tripping. Are you having problems with nuisance trips?
>2) Will this W31X2M1G5 switch breaker be OK for the 5 amp pullable breaker
>for the field wire to LR3C-14 voltage regulator? It is half the price of
>the pullable breaker from B&C.
sure
>3) Do you have a kit for the poor man's battery tester or a cartoon of how
>to build one. I have finally found an 120 volt AC electric clock. I have
>not held a soldering iron for forty years and I was not real skillful back
>then.
No, you can get the parts at Radio Shack
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LSE Plasma III electrical noise |
>
>I thought I was finished with the installation of my LSE Plasma III into my
>all composite Q-200. I am running the one mag/one electronic system. I
>went out for the test flight, but the tower was unable to read me.
>"Aircraft calling ground, unreadable".
Have you listened to the output from your transmitter? You need
to have someone else talk to you while you're on a hand held 100'
or more away. What does the radio sound like? An "unreadable"
report may have nothing to do with the ignition system. Does the
tower say you're now quite clear with the ignition system off?
>After I fiddled with the squelch, I found there was a mid-range tone, quite
>loud, whenever I had the LSE switched ON. I shut down the engine and found
>the same thing; the noise was just as bad. (I have a Wag-Aero ICS Plus
>Nav/Com, about 12 years old).
If you're hearing noise in your headphones, then this may not
have anything to do with the radio. It might be an audio system
problem.
>I called Klaus and he said I was picking up inductive coupling from the
>oscillator. I admit I had diverted from his instructions just a little bit.
>For the 12V supply I ran an unshielded wire from the battery to a 5A breaker
>in the panel. From there, his shielded wire runs to the LSE brain box. The
>shielded ground wire runs from the brain box to the ground buss, which is
>mounted about 18" aft of the firewall. His instructions say it should go
>all the way to the battery.
shielded ground wire?????
>My com antenna lead is RG58 and it runs in intimate proximity with the
>unshielded 12V supply line to the battery. The com antenna is in the
>vertical stab, and the battery is in the baggage compartment, aft of the
>passenger seat.
If you are hearing power supply noise from the ignition system
then it's 1000% better to filter it off at the source than
to re-route wires in an attempt to "live with the noise".
>Klaus suggested separating the com antenna leads from any power leads, and
>run shielded wire, straight to the battery per plans, including the CB. That
>is what I now intend to do.
>
>
>Any more thoughts or suggestions?
These are all shots in the dark. Have you read the chapter on
noise? What experiments have you run to make sure we're talking
about the right antagonist, the right victim and then isolate
the propagation mode? If Klaus or anyone else has you changing
configuration of your installation wiring in an attempt to mitigate
a noise problem, then they're admitting that their product isn't
really suited for installation in your airplane.
Let's chop and hack on things because we've deduced the
action to be a useful thing to try instead of trying lots
of things because they "might" help.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 340 Audio panel question - RG400 to D-Sub? |
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Hope you can help me. I am in the final stages of putting my RV 8A together,
>and today I attached my left wing to the fuselage. I ran the RG 400 cable
>from
>the marker beacon antenna in the wing tip to the rear of the panel and
>discovered that the audio panel (GMA 340) which has a marker beacon
>receiver, has no
>co-ax connector for the antenna. I checked the diagram for the two plugs and
>found P1 lists pin 1 and 2 as the inputs for the marker beacon antenna.
>
>My question is, how do I connect the RG 400 to the D Sub plug?
Here's how I would do it:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_4.jpg
Give me your mailing address and I'll send you the "prototype"
in the pictures.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: King wiring questions |
>
>
>I've got a few questions about wiring my KT76a, KX125, KI208, and an
>ITC-402P intercom. I have the pin diagrams for each of these, but the
>terms don't seem to always line up. The ones I'm having problems with are:
>
>**KX125 PINS**
>
>COM AUDIO IN
>COM AUDIO HI
>COM AUDIO LOW
>COM DET AUDIO OUT
>COM REMOTE XFR
>NAV AUDIO OUT HI
>NAV AUDIO OUT LO
>NAV AUDIO IN
>NAV REMOTE XFR
>(Do one of these go to the intercom? My intercom only calls for one input
>from the radio)
>
>
>VOR/LOC COMPOSITE IN
>VOR/LOC COMPOSITE OUT
>(which one goes to the VOR/LOC INPUT on the KI208?)
>
>
>ILS GROUND
>(does this go with ILS COMMON on the KI208? If not what goes to the ILS
>COMMON?)
>
>
>**KT76A PINS**
>
>D4 (My encoder doesn't have an output for this, do I need it?)
>
>
>**KI208**
>
>
>On the KI208 the + LEFT OUTPUT and the + RIGHT OUTPUT are labeled as
>outputs for the auto pilot. There are no other left or right pins in the
>diagram. I assume that these are also the inputs from the nav radio. If
>not how does the VOR head know left and right, or am I just missing
>something here?
>
>
>Thanks for any help in finishing up my wiring. I've had a really
>hard time getting info from the King website. I got my diagrams from
>Electric Bob's site.
>
>Thanks
>Cam
Do you have installation instructions for these pieces of equipment?
There may be more issues than those you've identified above. I suggest
you visit a local avionics shop and see if they'll give you access to
their library where you'll find installation details that are
much more illuminating than the pin-out diagrams I've posted. They're
not intended to be a substitute for real systems integration instructions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>lucky macy (luckymacy(at)hotmail.com) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 at 05:34:35
>
>Saturday, March 20, 2004
>
>lucky macy
>
>,
>Email: luckymacy(at)hotmail.com
>Comments/Questions: Bob, I want to make a new custom length ELT antenna
>which can be base mounted at a bulkhead and run horizontal under the
>vertical stab. So I need the antenna base to be threaded so I can tighten
>it down with a nut like the stock antenna is designed.
>
>I also have heard of another RV8 builder using a copper strip bonded to
>the inside of his empennage fairing and somehow putting a BNC fitting to
>it so that it would work with the stock antenna chord. However, I'd
>rather not go that route. I don't know how he supported the connecter and
>don't want to fool with that issue while taking the fairing on and off anyway.
>
>I have your book but can't quite decide how to tackle this job.
>
>Did I miss something on your website or in the book or otherwise do you
>have an idea on how to replicate the stock bottom end?
>
>thanks in advance,
>lucky
This can probably be done but you'll need access to an antenna
analyzer to trim the finished antenna to length. Further, sticking
it in the location you've cited will have profound effects on
overall performance of the system. Did the other builder cite any
testing that was done to confirm antenna matching and performance?
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dancing Ammeter |
>
>
>My flying Lancair 320 has 517 hrs. TT. Within the last few hours of
>flying, the ammeter has begun a rhythmic wiggle at about 1.5 cycles per
>second with about a 10 amp amplitude. Occasionally the amplitude will
>go full scale with no apparent triggering event. Adding load just moves
>the range of the wiggle further up the scale. The frequency of the
>wiggle is independent of engine RPM. It's the same at idle as at full
>tilt boogie. I have pulled the alternator (generic automotive type,
>externally regulated) and had it tested. No problems. I have checked,
>cleaned and tightened all connections in the
>alternator/regulator/battery circuits. I'm now down to either the
>regulator or the meter being bad. The meter is one of those combined
>ammeter/voltmeter jobbies where it normally shows amps and you push a
>button for volts. The ammeter is shunted from the B lead, which goes
>through a 35-amp breaker to the main bus. The voltage indication is
>rock steady and agrees with the digital voltage shown in my EDM-700.
>The battery (Odyssey PC925) seems to be being charged normally. The
>regulator is a generic automotive type and is the original installation
>(517 hrs.). It is mounted on the engine side of the firewall in a very
>difficult place to get to (I didn't build my plane). Changing it is
>going to be a major pain. That's why I wanted to get y'all's feedback
>before attacking the regulator.
>
>Any suggestions for further troubleshooting? I have a digital
>multimeter but don't know how to use it to diagnose this situation.
Dancing ammeters are almost always due to increasing resistance
of wiring and components between the bus and the regulator's "bus"
terminal.
Hundreds of Cessna's and Pipers do this every year. Most get "fixed"
by replacing the regulator or perhaps one of the suspect components like
the split rocker master switch. Here's a post from some last year:
>I felt pretty certain that if you recommended hooking the regulator right
>to the back of the alternator, and then followed the appropriate
>connection you knew things would settle down nicely. Well, they did just
>that! The ammeter was rock steady to the charging side, and the voltage
>read a solid 14.4
>Now the follow up to get these same results once the voltage regulator is
>reinstalled, and not hanging off the alternator. The other thing I noted
>was that when hooked up in this manner the alternator side of the split
>master was not working, but I'm sure you knew that would happen.
>
>Let me know what's next, and thanks!
Okay, this experiment was important to tell
us that the components were okay and that you
didn't have a flaky regulator or bouncing brushes
in the alternator.
I'd start at the bus (did I ask whether you're
using fuseblocks or breakers?) and check to see
that you have good terminals, at least 20AWG wire
all the way to the regulator's "A/S" terminals.
If the regulator is mounted on the firewall,
grounding isn't an issue for the regulator . . .
and seldom does grounding affect stability . . .
only voltage setting.
Also, you mentioned that the "alternator side
of the split master was not working" . . . I'd
bet that MOST of your circuit resistance is
happening in that switch. I have a plastic
bag full of perfectly good looking split-rocker
switches that were sent to me after putting
in a new one cured a bouncy ammeter complaint.
This has occurred in countless certified ships
and a few OBAM aircraft. This doesn't mean that
the split-rocker is necessarily a "bad" product
(it's made by Carling and uses the same guts
as the S700 series toggle switches B&C sells).
Regulators are sensitive to small amounts of
resistance in the lines between bus and regulator.
I had one builder who mounted his regulator within
a few inches of the bus, tied the A/S terminals
directly to the breaker with short, single,
solid wire and put his alternator control switch
in series with the field wire. He added crowbar
ov protection to the breaker and ended up with
a combination that would probably be stable over
the lifetime of the airplane.
In older production Cessnas, I think I counted
20 some odd crimps, connections and spring-pressure
maintained metal-metal contacts between bus and
regulator. As all of these joints age, they add
resistance to the circuit. At some point in time,
the system becomes unstable with symptoms you
have observed.
Thousands of spam-can owners have paid out $millions$
to ignorant mechanics who replaced EVERYTHING BUT
aged/compromised wiring before finally renewing the
bus-to-regulator components. In many cases, owners
have reported that replacing only the spilt-rocker
"fixed" the problem. Indeed this single component
can be a major contributor of total loop resistance.
But consider that if NEW loop resistance was on
the order of 50 milliohms and had climbed to
100 milliohms with the switch contributing
25 ohms of de-stabilizing resistance. Replacing
the switch drops total down to 75 milliohms and
the regulator is happy again . . . but not for
as long as it would be when replacing ALL
sources of age/service related resistance
in the bus-to-regulator pathway.
The obvious, elegant solution in original
design is to incorporate a regulator that separates
voltage sense wires from field current supply
wires. The LR-3 does just that. Any new regulators
I design will have separate sense wires too.
Does this suggest that the OBAM community
should rip out all their three-terminal
switchers and bolt on the LR-3? Not at all.
The automotive style regulators have for the
most part given good value but they DO have
special characteristics that only one mechanic
in 1000 understands. In the spam-can world,
ignorance is shoveled out at $thousands$ per
non-idea, in the OBAM aircraft world, we've managed to
keep those costs MUCH lower . . . and much of
it happens right here on the AeroElectric
List.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
| From: | "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer(at)genmar.com> |
Several months ago, one member mentioned that the LSE unit has a rather irritating
quality that when the bus voltage drops to some unspecified (low) amount,
as during an extended engine cranking event, the brain gets "scrambled" and causes
a timing mis-fire. The result was that spark was delivered BEFORE top-dead-center,
causing the engine to try to spin backwards or cause a failure of the
starter pinion or ring gear due to the high forces involved.
My thoughts on this topic have been this: What about using a second, small battery
(around 5 Amp-hr for example) on board and electrically isolate this battery
just prior to engine crank with a separate switch? The purpose of this battery
is to provide clean, isolated power to the LSE units during the crank event
without its voltage being "dragged" down by the starter. In essence, this would
require that an additional switch would be placed in the "start" position
and used to feed LSE power exclusively from this small battery; then, after the
engine is running, tie the two batteries back together by throwing the switch
back to its "run" position and thereby let the alternator keep both batteries
charged.
Any thoughts on this logic?
Mark N.
GlaStar
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma III |
LSE ignition units work as low as 4~5 volts if memory serves, its listed on
their web site. If your idea of the second battery works then either the
IGN system has a problem or you by passed the problem somewhere else.
>
>
>Several months ago, one member mentioned that the LSE unit has a rather
>irritating quality that when the bus voltage drops to some unspecified (low)
>amount, as during an extended engine cranking event, the brain gets
>"scrambled" and causes a timing mis-fire. The result was that spark was
>delivered BEFORE top-dead-center, causing the engine to try to spin
>backwards or cause a failure of the starter pinion or ring gear due to the
>high forces involved.
>
>My thoughts on this topic have been this: What about using a second, small
>battery (around 5 Amp-hr for example) on board and electrically isolate this
>battery just prior to engine crank with a separate switch? The purpose of
>this battery is to provide clean, isolated power to the LSE units during the
>crank event without its voltage being "dragged" down by the starter. In
>essence, this would require that an additional switch would be placed in the
>"start" position and used to feed LSE power exclusively from this small
>battery; then, after the engine is running, tie the two batteries back
>together by throwing the switch back to its "run" position and thereby let
>the alternator keep both batteries charged.
>
>Any thoughts on this logic?
>
>Mark N.
>GlaStar
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fin tip ELT antenna? |
>he just did what everyone else usually does. go some distance away and
>turn the ELT one and listen in on a Rx for the signal.
>
>it worked to a distance on the ground that satisfied him.
If that's enough for you, then we can truck on. Building antennas isn't
difficult. Building good antennas isn't either but there are
characteristics
of performance that are difficult to quantify without some pretty
sophisticated test equipment. We know from experience that a rod sticking
straight out of the skin is about the best we know how to do. There are
some second-best ideas that tuck antennas away under fiberglas . . . and
experience has shown these to be useful at some level. The problem
with ELT antennas vs. COMM antennas, one doesn't want to do much
'experimenting'
to prove or disprove any particular levels of effectiveness by experience.
I've seen and heard of hideaway antennas that looked really great on
the antenna analyzer but produced terrible radiation patterns and levels
of radiation efficiency. You can tie a 50 ohm resistor onto the end
of your coax in lieu of a real antenna and the analyzer will call it
"excellent" while in fact, radiation is zero and a pattern is non-existent.
With these hard facts of physics in mind, you can duplicate the work
of others but unless you have exact details of their antenna
tested at any level, then acquiring use of an antenna analyzer
like . .
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-259B
is one of the several keys to success. Beyond that,
it's a matter of hiding a conductor under the fiberglas that
has been trimmed to length so that it LOOKS like a decent
antenna to the transmitter (3:1 or less VSWR) and supporting
the conductor in a way that doesn't allow it to shift
position over time. It's important to put as much space between
the antenna and conductive structure. A foil antenna stuck
on inside surface of fiberglas might do the trick.
You don't need to listen to the ELT on a hand held. As
long as you can see your airplane, you'll hear it too.
The questions become will a satellite hear the airplane
from 200 miles overhead at the look-angles inherent to the
antenna's design . . . here's where patterns come into play.
Beyond this, there are no recommendations I can offer given
that I've not personally attacked the problem and tested the
results nor have I seen data from anyone else's solution.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma III |
Mark Neubauer wrote:
>
>
> Several months ago, one member mentioned that the LSE unit has a rather
> irritating quality that when the bus voltage drops to some unspecified
> (low) amount, as during an extended engine cranking event, the brain gets
> "scrambled" and causes a timing mis-fire. The result was that spark was
> delivered BEFORE top-dead-center, causing the engine to try to spin
> backwards or cause a failure of the starter pinion or ring gear due to the
> high forces involved.
>
> My thoughts on this topic have been this: What about using a second, small
> battery (around 5 Amp-hr for example) on board and electrically isolate
> this battery just prior to engine crank with a separate switch? The purpose
> of this battery is to provide clean, isolated power to the LSE units during
> the crank event without its voltage being "dragged" down by the starter. In
> essence, this would require that an additional switch would be placed in
> the "start" position and used to feed LSE power exclusively from this small
> battery; then, after the engine is running, tie the two batteries back
> together by throwing the switch back to its "run" position and thereby let
> the alternator keep both batteries charged.
I'll let Bob respond to the need for a second battery, but you can at least
avoid the isolation switch. Just put a diode between the battery and the
primary bus, a-la the endurance bus. If your main bus voltage drops 12V
(actually, below 12V+diode voltage drop), the diode will turn off and that bus
will be isolated. But, while the main bus is greater than that of the battery,
the LSE and battery will see that voltage, so the alternator will supply the
battery (charge it) and the LSE.
Be careful of diode selection. Diodes have a voltage drop that will reduce the
voltage seen by this isolated bus. If the drop is large enough the backup
battery won't charge properly. If you use a "Schottky" diode, a type with a
very small drop, you should be fine.
Also, why 5Ah? According to their Web site the LSE draws 1.2-1.3A depending on
the model. For the five seconds you'd be cranking you could get by with a
smaller value, probably as low as 1.5A although 2-2.5A would be safer. That
would save a lot of weight and make this a more acceptable option. You're
probably still best with a small sealed lead-acid though, unless Bob has a
better idea. They don't need charge controllers the way, say, a NiMH battery
would.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch - an
OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial disorientation -
by putting the switch in the middle position??
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma III |
Every starter motor has a lock-rotor current (stall current)
that is equal to "inrush" current. This value of current can
be expected to flow in the milliseconds before the motor's
armature accelerates to operating speed. PM motors, due to
very low resistance, have the highest inrush current.
A few months ago, I published voltage vs time plots for
battery voltage taken from my GMC van during a cranking
event. The battery installed load tested at nearly 500A
for a 15 second, 9v test and a wound-field starter. Inrush
currents for starting produced a negative-going transition
that bottomed out at about 8.5 volts (inrush on the order
of 500A).
With smaller batteries and PM starter motors it's conceivable
that a battery might drop into the 4-5 volt range for a few
milliseconds even if the battery appears to crank the engine
just fine.
If this is a concern for any of you, my suggestion is to
leave the ignition switch off until after the starter
has the prop turning so that the ignition system doesn't
see the inrush-transient.
We're poking around in the extreme corners of system performance
for the ignition, battery, starter combination. The combination
of conditions that cause problems are VERY sensitive to
operating procedures, selection of components (battery size)
and/or preventative maintenance. This is another case that
argues in favor of yearly change out of batteries . . .
especially for small ones.
The quest for light weight and exemplar performance don't
march along hand-in-hand. I'm working some battery issues
at RAC right now where I'm confident that the quest for
lightness combined with low interest in preventative
maintenance has produced some unhappy consumers.
Bob . . .
>LSE ignition units work as low as 4~5 volts if memory serves, its listed on
>their web site. If your idea of the second battery works then either the
>IGN system has a problem or you by passed the problem somewhere else.
>
>
> >
> >
> >Several months ago, one member mentioned that the LSE unit has a rather
> >irritating quality that when the bus voltage drops to some unspecified
> (low)
> >amount, as during an extended engine cranking event, the brain gets
> >"scrambled" and causes a timing mis-fire. The result was that spark was
> >delivered BEFORE top-dead-center, causing the engine to try to spin
> >backwards or cause a failure of the starter pinion or ring gear due to the
> >high forces involved.
> >My thoughts on this topic have been this: What about using a second, small
> >battery (around 5 Amp-hr for example) on board and electrically isolate
> this
> >battery just prior to engine crank with a separate switch? The purpose of
> >this battery is to provide clean, isolated power to the LSE units during
> the
> >crank event without its voltage being "dragged" down by the starter. In
> >essence, this would require that an additional switch would be placed in
> the
> >"start" position and used to feed LSE power exclusively from this small
> >battery; then, after the engine is running, tie the two batteries back
> >together by throwing the switch back to its "run" position and thereby let
> >the alternator keep both batteries charged.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
>
>any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch
>- an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
>so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
>disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
>thanks
No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Brooks" <kenbrooks(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Rubber Cable Grommets |
I'm trying to seal up a 1 3/16" hole that has a 1/4" cable going through the
center and am having trouble locating the right size rubber grommet (Wicks,
ACS, etc.). Seems like the ones that fit the large bulkhead hole size all
have larger holes for the cable also (1/2"). Has anyone had any luck making
their own rubber grommets by cutting/punching out the right cable size hole
in the middle? Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm trying to seal
well and look good too.
Ken Brooks
Roscoe, IL
RV-8 spaghetti everywhere
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
>
>
> >
> >any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch
> >- an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
> >so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
> >disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
> >thanks
>
> No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
> go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
> operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
I used that switch, but I had the opposite logic. I figured when I was
taxiing on the ground I wanted nav lights on, but I don't turn on the
strobes till I enter the active runway.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma III |
>
>I'll let Bob respond to the need for a second battery, but you can at least
>avoid the isolation switch. Just put a diode between the battery and the
>primary bus, a-la the endurance bus. If your main bus voltage drops 12V
>(actually, below 12V+diode voltage drop), the diode will turn off and that
>bus
>will be isolated. But, while the main bus is greater than that of the
>battery,
>the LSE and battery will see that voltage, so the alternator will supply the
>battery (charge it) and the LSE.
>
>Be careful of diode selection. Diodes have a voltage drop that will reduce
>the
>voltage seen by this isolated bus. If the drop is large enough the backup
>battery won't charge properly. If you use a "Schottky" diode, a type with a
>very small drop, you should be fine.
>
>Also, why 5Ah? According to their Web site the LSE draws 1.2-1.3A
>depending on
>the model. For the five seconds you'd be cranking you could get by with a
>smaller value, probably as low as 1.5A although 2-2.5A would be safer. That
>would save a lot of weight and make this a more acceptable option. You're
>probably still best with a small sealed lead-acid though, unless Bob has a
>better idea. They don't need charge controllers the way, say, a NiMH battery
>would.
Actually, rather than install a second battery, a computer grade
electrolytic capacitor across the input power leads to the ignition
system with a series isolation diode would do the same thing and
without adding battery to the system (no maintenance). We only need
to support the ignition system during the starter motor inrush
interval (milliseconds). Seems that if the system is vulnerable
to this common condition, the feature should be built into the
ignition system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
I did the OFF-NAV-NAV+STROBE single switch thing in my RV-7, and I'm
regretting it already (and I'm not even flying yet).
Bob's point is right on, where you may want strobes on during the day but
don't need to run the position lights. The only problem with doing what Bob
suggested (OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE) is that at *night*, when you're sitting
there on the runup pad or at the threshold waiting for your clearance, you
may not want those strobes on, but you definitely want the position lights
on.
In my case, running the position lights during the day is the worst case
scenario...which ain't all that bad. I'm just prepared to have to replace
those bulbs sooner that I might have otherwise. No big deal, but it's not
ideal.
I guess my point is that if you have the space, go with separate switches if
you can. I know next time I will.
Hope this helps,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: nav & strobe on the same switch???
>
> >
> >any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch
> >- an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
> >so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
> >disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
> >thanks
>
> No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
> go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
> operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
However, while on the taxiway it is courteous to leave off the strobes to
avoid flashing in the eyes of other pilots.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: nav & strobe on the same switch???
>
>any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch
>- an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
>so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
>disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
>thanks
No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fin tip ELT antenna? |
>Bob,
>How can I take some soft SS that some VHF comm antennas are made from and
>attach a threaded end on the bottom like an ELT antenna has so I can mount
>it horizontally to a bulkhead. I want to do that instead of epoxying
>copper strips to fiberglass fairings.
If you want stainless, you can drill a steel bolt head and silver-solder the
stainless rod into it to provide a threaded fitting at one end. Since
the antenna is totally enclosed, you could use some brass rod and soft
solder it into the drilled head of a brass bolt. 3/8" brass hardware
can be insulated from the sheet metal using insulating washers like those
used on mic and headset jacks. See:
http://bandc.biz/s890-1sm.jpg
which you can order at:
http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?24X358218#s892
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch
> > >- an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
> > >so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
> > >disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
> > >thanks
> >
> > No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
> > go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
> > operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
>
>I used that switch, but I had the opposite logic. I figured when I was
>taxiing on the ground I wanted nav lights on, but I don't turn on the
>strobes till I enter the active runway.
Never heard of this. Nav lights are pretty close to useless for
any practical purpose. Strobe lights get people's attention that
the engine is running and/or the airplane is in motion about
the airport and is visible day and night whether ground based or
airborne. Further, strobes take less total energy to operate.
Of course, there's the courtesy issue of not blasting retinas
off the eyeballs of other pilots taxiing in the area. Once you've
left the ramp and enter controlled environment, the value of showing
any lights becomes problematical and may create more hazard/discomfort
than value.
When you're in IMC, you don't need to show any lights. Nobody is
going to see them whether strobe or steady and there is value
being able to run strobes in day-vfr environment.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fin tip ELT antenna? |
In a message dated 3/24/2004 11:44:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net
writes:
> Since
> the antenna is totally enclosed, you could use some brass
> rod and soft
> solder it into the drilled head of a brass bolt.
Bob, I made electrical "copies" of the Archer -style wingtip antennas depicted
in the 'Connection out of brass hobby tubing and flat stock, assembled structurally
with soldered joints, and they have held up for a year in my RV wingtip
with no structural failures. I'm quite happy with this type of "ugly" homebrew
construction for antennas that are enclosed in structure; it's beefier than
it looks.
-Bill Boyd
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Bob,
I suspect the system is resetting continuously during the crank cycle - - and then
fires correctly only when the starter solenoid is released.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma III
>
>I'll let Bob respond to the need for a second battery, but you can at least
>avoid the isolation switch. Just put a diode between the battery and the
>primary bus, a-la the endurance bus. If your main bus voltage drops 12V
>(actually, below 12V+diode voltage drop), the diode will turn off and that
>bus
>will be isolated. But, while the main bus is greater than that of the
>battery,
>the LSE and battery will see that voltage, so the alternator will supply the
>battery (charge it) and the LSE.
>
>Be careful of diode selection. Diodes have a voltage drop that will reduce
>the
>voltage seen by this isolated bus. If the drop is large enough the backup
>battery won't charge properly. If you use a "Schottky" diode, a type with a
>very small drop, you should be fine.
>
>Also, why 5Ah? According to their Web site the LSE draws 1.2-1.3A
>depending on
>the model. For the five seconds you'd be cranking you could get by with a
>smaller value, probably as low as 1.5A although 2-2.5A would be safer. That
>would save a lot of weight and make this a more acceptable option. You're
>probably still best with a small sealed lead-acid though, unless Bob has a
>better idea. They don't need charge controllers the way, say, a NiMH battery
>would.
Actually, rather than install a second battery, a computer grade
electrolytic capacitor across the input power leads to the ignition
system with a series isolation diode would do the same thing and
without adding battery to the system (no maintenance). We only need
to support the ignition system during the starter motor inrush
interval (milliseconds). Seems that if the system is vulnerable
to this common condition, the feature should be built into the
ignition system.
Bob . . .
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
That's the way we are going to do it using one of B&C (Bob's) S700-2-10
switches. Doing the same with dome lighting: first is red, then both red
and white.
John
> any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same
> switch - an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
> so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
> disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
> thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
But if you go IMC/IFR you'll may want to be able to get the strobes off
first.
John
> No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
> go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
> operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "GMC" <gmcnutt(at)uniserve.com> |
| Subject: | nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
>
>any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same switch
>- an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
>so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
>disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
>thanks
No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
Bob . . .
Except the above setup does not allow for operations on the ground at night
in the vicinity of other aircraft. Also the suggestion of operating IFR at
night with NAV+STROBE off will eventually end up with the aircraft landing
at night with no lights showing.
Put in a four position rotary switch or individual switches.
George in Langley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
>
>Bob,
>
>I suspect the system is resetting continuously during the crank cycle - -
>and then fires correctly only when the starter solenoid is released.
Hmmmm . . . I'm mystified by such behavior. If you have a brown-out
watchdog, it shouldn't call for a reset until after the bus voltage
exceeds minimum levels for performance. After the initial inrush
event, a single "good to go" signal from the watchdog should be
sufficient.
If your hypothesis is correct, then a rudimentary review of DO-160
power input conditions would be useful in crafting the next generation
of product.
Bob . . .
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma III
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >I'll let Bob respond to the need for a second battery, but you can at least
> >avoid the isolation switch. Just put a diode between the battery and the
> >primary bus, a-la the endurance bus. If your main bus voltage drops 12V
> >(actually, below 12V+diode voltage drop), the diode will turn off and that
> >bus
> >will be isolated. But, while the main bus is greater than that of the
> >battery,
> >the LSE and battery will see that voltage, so the alternator will supply the
> >battery (charge it) and the LSE.
> >
> >Be careful of diode selection. Diodes have a voltage drop that will reduce
> >the
> >voltage seen by this isolated bus. If the drop is large enough the backup
> >battery won't charge properly. If you use a "Schottky" diode, a type with a
> >very small drop, you should be fine.
> >
> >Also, why 5Ah? According to their Web site the LSE draws 1.2-1.3A
> >depending on
> >the model. For the five seconds you'd be cranking you could get by with a
> >smaller value, probably as low as 1.5A although 2-2.5A would be safer. That
> >would save a lot of weight and make this a more acceptable option. You're
> >probably still best with a small sealed lead-acid though, unless Bob has a
> >better idea. They don't need charge controllers the way, say, a NiMH battery
> >would.
>
> Actually, rather than install a second battery, a computer grade
> electrolytic capacitor across the input power leads to the ignition
> system with a series isolation diode would do the same thing and
> without adding battery to the system (no maintenance). We only need
> to support the ignition system during the starter motor inrush
> interval (milliseconds). Seems that if the system is vulnerable
> to this common condition, the feature should be built into the
> ignition system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
>
>---
>
>
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fin tip ELT antenna? |
>
>In a message dated 3/24/2004 11:44:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>
> > Since
> > the antenna is totally enclosed, you could use some brass
> > rod and soft
> > solder it into the drilled head of a brass bolt.
>
>Bob, I made electrical "copies" of the Archer -style wingtip antennas
>depicted in the 'Connection out of brass hobby tubing and flat stock,
>assembled structurally with soldered joints, and they have held up for a
>year in my RV wingtip with no structural failures. I'm quite happy with
>this type of "ugly" homebrew construction for antennas that are enclosed
>in structure; it's beefier than it looks.
that configuration has certainly proven it's worth over the
years. Is there enough room under fin tip to incorporate this
style antenna?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
>
> > When you're in IMC, you don't need to show any lights. Nobody is
> > going to see them whether strobe or steady and there is value
> > being able to run strobes in day-vfr environment.
>
>If you're flying in and out of clouds at night, I personally think it's best
>to keep your strobes off but your position lights ON.
>
>Granted, ATC is supposed to maintain separation, but you never know what
>might be lurking around out there. 8-)
When was the last time you visually captured an airplane
at night based solely on position lights? What's to say
that variability of cloud-reflected light from the nav fixtures
is not also strong source of visual confusion leading to vertigo?
This effect might be especially strong when flying in and out
of clouds.
It's a belt-n-suspenders suggestion that needs a closer look.
I'm not seeing how benefits outweigh risks.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rubber Cable Grommets |
>
>I'm trying to seal up a 1 3/16" hole that has a 1/4" cable going through the
>center and am having trouble locating the right size rubber grommet (Wicks,
>ACS, etc.). Seems like the ones that fit the large bulkhead hole size all
>have larger holes for the cable also (1/2"). Has anyone had any luck making
>their own rubber grommets by cutting/punching out the right cable size hole
>in the middle? Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm trying to seal
>well and look good too.
That's a tall order for a rubber part. Is this in a firewall where
"sealing" is important? I'd build a cover plate and downsize the
grommet hole. Also, if on the firewall, add grommet shields and
fire putty -OR- go to a more robust and purposeful firewall penetration.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
>
>I did the OFF-NAV-NAV+STROBE single switch thing in my RV-7, and I'm
>regretting it already (and I'm not even flying yet).
>
>Bob's point is right on, where you may want strobes on during the day but
>don't need to run the position lights. The only problem with doing what Bob
>suggested (OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE) is that at *night*, when you're sitting
>there on the runup pad or at the threshold waiting for your clearance, you
>may not want those strobes on, but you definitely want the position lights
>on.
>
>In my case, running the position lights during the day is the worst case
>scenario...which ain't all that bad. I'm just prepared to have to replace
>those bulbs sooner that I might have otherwise. No big deal, but it's not
>ideal.
>
>I guess my point is that if you have the space, go with separate switches if
>you can. I know next time I will.
Sounds like a plan . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julia <wings97302(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Nav & Stobe on same switch?? |
So after all the comments so far - would it be fair to say that two seperate switches
is best but if you have to go with one switch then Off / __??___/___??
what is best??
I think i'd like to be able to turn on Navs at night and not have stobes - so off/nav/nav&strobe
would be best.
For day light landing - i've got the wigwag setup - so I don't see that I need
strobes.
Bob's idea was off/stobe/strobe&nav - however this would not allow me to shut off
the strobe and still have the nav?
In thinking off/nav/nav&strobe sounds best from what i've heard so far
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Metcalfe, Lee, AIR" <Lee.Metcalfe(at)jocogov.org> |
'Lectric Bob and other interested folks:
Just replaced my el-cheapo Cessna knock-off split master switch with a
new Cessna part (from ACS) and viola, problem solved. I had also been
having a problem with the BAT side of the switch (had to mash it hard
when turning on the battery to get the contactor to engage). The switch
is at least fifteen years old and is of inferior quality. I may get
scientific and open it up to see what the contacts look like.
Cheers!
Lee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dancing Ammeter
-->
>
>
>My flying Lancair 320 has 517 hrs. TT. Within the last few hours of
>flying, the ammeter has begun a rhythmic wiggle at about 1.5 cycles per
>second with about a 10 amp amplitude. Occasionally the amplitude will
>go full scale with no apparent triggering event. Adding load just
>moves the range of the wiggle further up the scale. The frequency of
>the wiggle is independent of engine RPM. It's the same at idle as at
>full tilt boogie. I have pulled the alternator (generic automotive
>type, externally regulated) and had it tested. No problems. I have
>checked, cleaned and tightened all connections in the
>alternator/regulator/battery circuits. I'm now down to either the
>regulator or the meter being bad. The meter is one of those combined
>ammeter/voltmeter jobbies where it normally shows amps and you push a
>button for volts. The ammeter is shunted from the B lead, which goes
>through a 35-amp breaker to the main bus. The voltage indication is
>rock steady and agrees with the digital voltage shown in my EDM-700.
>The battery (Odyssey PC925) seems to be being charged normally. The
>regulator is a generic automotive type and is the original installation
>(517 hrs.). It is mounted on the engine side of the firewall in a very
>difficult place to get to (I didn't build my plane). Changing it is
>going to be a major pain. That's why I wanted to get y'all's feedback
>before attacking the regulator.
>
>Any suggestions for further troubleshooting? I have a digital
>multimeter but don't know how to use it to diagnose this situation.
Dancing ammeters are almost always due to increasing resistance
of wiring and components between the bus and the regulator's "bus"
terminal.
Hundreds of Cessna's and Pipers do this every year. Most get "fixed"
by replacing the regulator or perhaps one of the suspect components
like
the split rocker master switch.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
| Subject: | Connector Identification |
John - been there, identifying the parts drove me nuts! In the UK the parts
I ordered to work with a Nove and have connected are:
Qty Manufac Farnell Descr Price ea Price
5 299-467 Pin Housing 0.44 2.20
5 299-509 Socket 0.46 2.30
1 299-560 14-18 Pins 7.84 7.84
1 299-571 14-18 Sockets 7.84 7.84
P222, Book 2 in the Farnell catalogue.
Check before you order but I think that will work just fine. (I might have
ordered 4 rather than 3 way)
Steve.
N Yorks., UK
RV9a #90360
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
n3eu(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connector Identification
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 340 Audio panel question - |
RG400 to D-Sub?
>
>In a message dated 3/23/2004 9:41:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
>bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_1.jpg
>Looks simple to install. Thanks for the offer!
>
>Ronald Smith
>15460 Blackbird Drive
>Fountain Hills AZ 85268
it's on the way.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott(at)commander.com> |
Have a look for something like a digital panel meter, they usually have resistive
arrays to change the scale of the reading,
something in Australia is
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QP5580&CATID=&keywords=digital+panel+meter&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID
I use them with a special thermocouple amp, to make a digital CHT gauge.
Ian
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
Sower
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Instrument adaptating queations .... pts
rule name description ---- ----------------------
--------------------------------------------------
<... Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf shunts. For switching
between two shunts of different current values, you can do either dual-scale instrument
or a
single ...>
Movements are well and good. I can understand that. What I'm trying to adapt
is a digital
display. How do I reduce a digital display to a 50mv galvanometer? That was the
original
question. I've got digital displays that massage the input (volts, gallons, deg
F, whatever)
and display it numerically. How do I modify a digital voltmeter to display amps
across a
shunt?
Still wonderin' .... Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joel Harding <cajole76(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
Julia, that will work just fine, but if you plan to use your strobe in
daylight you'll be burning your nav bulbs as well. No big deal, but
will shorten the life of the nav bulbs.
Joel Harding
On Mar 24, 2004, at 8:19 AM, Julia wrote:
>
> any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same
> switch - an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
> so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
> disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
> thanks
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joel Harding <cajole76(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: nav & strobe on the same switch??? |
On Mar 24, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>> any reason why the nav lights and strobe should not be on the same
>> switch
>> - an OFF / NAV / NAV & STOBE - three position switch
>> so I could shut off the strobe when in IMC to minimize spacial
>> disorientation - by putting the switch in the middle position??
>> thanks
>
> No problem. The 2-10 progressive switch will implement this. I'd
> go OFF-STROBE-NAV+STROBE for sequence. Strobe lights are often
> operated vfr-day and need to come on before the nav lights.
>
> Bob . . .
>
The only downside to that combination is that while taxiing in or out
at night, the strobes will be popping off, which can be somewhat
irritating if other folks are in the vicinity.
Joel Harding
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Bob, That system has no uP. It is all analog. I probably misled you
by using the term "re-setting". Sorry. Poor and inarticulate choice
of words, on my part.
Regards, George
>Bob,
>
>I suspect the system is resetting continuously during the crank cycle -
-
>and then fires correctly only when the starter solenoid is released.
Hmmmm . . . I'm mystified by such behavior. If you have a brown-out
watchdog, it shouldn't call for a reset until after the bus voltage
exceeds minimum levels for performance. After the initial inrush
event, a single "good to go" signal from the watchdog should be
sufficient.
If your hypothesis is correct, then a rudimentary review of DO-160
power input conditions would be useful in crafting the next
generation
of product.
Bob . . .
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma III
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >I'll let Bob respond to the need for a second battery, but you can at
least
> >avoid the isolation switch. Just put a diode between the battery and
the
> >primary bus, a-la the endurance bus. If your main bus voltage drops
12V
> >(actually, below 12V+diode voltage drop), the diode will turn off and
that
> >bus
> >will be isolated. But, while the main bus is greater than that of the
> >battery,
> >the LSE and battery will see that voltage, so the alternator will
supply the
> >battery (charge it) and the LSE.
> >
> >Be careful of diode selection. Diodes have a voltage drop that will
reduce
> >the
> >voltage seen by this isolated bus. If the drop is large enough the
backup
> >battery won't charge properly. If you use a "Schottky" diode, a type
with a
> >very small drop, you should be fine.
> >
> >Also, why 5Ah? According to their Web site the LSE draws 1.2-1.3A
> >depending on
> >the model. For the five seconds you'd be cranking you could get by
with a
> >smaller value, probably as low as 1.5A although 2-2.5A would be
safer. That
> >would save a lot of weight and make this a more acceptable option.
You're
> >probably still best with a small sealed lead-acid though, unless Bob
has a
> >better idea. They don't need charge controllers the way, say, a NiMH
battery
> >would.
>
> Actually, rather than install a second battery, a computer grade
> electrolytic capacitor across the input power leads to the ignition
> system with a series isolation diode would do the same thing and
> without adding battery to the system (no maintenance). We only
need
> to support the ignition system during the starter motor inrush
> interval (milliseconds). Seems that if the system is vulnerable
> to this common condition, the feature should be built into the
> ignition system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
>
>---
>
>
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mcculleyja(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 03/23/04 |
In a message dated 3/24/04 2:57:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> Last weekend I remembered to check the SD-8 at lower RPM's. The voltage
> drops off gradually below 1500 RPM's, reaching 12 volts at about 1200 RPM's.
>
> Ken Harrill
> RV-6, 300+ hours
> Columbia, SC
>
I can confirm the same. Even with NO electrical load other than the battery
contactor draw of 750 ma and with the battery (17 AH RG) fully charged and
showing 12.8 volts, the voltage will not begin to rise above 12.8 volts until
above 1500-1700 RPM (Lycoming 180 HP). Above this RPM the voltage rises quickly
to 14.4, but the current output remains close to one amp because the battery
is essentially fully charged. Only as additional electrical load is turned on
(radio, xponder, etc) does the current output of the SD-8 begin to rise to
meet the operating load of these devices plus the minor charging need of the
battery. During this adding of load the system voltage drops slightly as appears
normal, based on whatever is the steady state RPM and load.
Jim McCulley
Operational Tailwind
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
>the SD-8 does not produce much current below about 1500 RPM,<
'Much' isn't very quantified.
Bob, Ken,
The SD-8 on my RV-6 produces the following voltage readings on a VM-1000
engine monitor (sensing the endurance buss) with everything OFF.
RPM Voltage
800 11.2
900 11.2
1000 11.4
1100 11.9
1200 12.9
1300 13.7
1400 14.4
1500 14.4
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300+ hours
Columbia, SC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Harrill <KHarrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
-----Original Message-----
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
LSE ignition units work as low as 4~5 volts if memory serves, its listed on
their web site. If your idea of the second battery works then either the
IGN system has a problem or you by passed the problem somewhere else.
Scott,
On my RV-6, the voltage (measured at the ignition module) drops to around 8
volts with the starter engaged, and the LSE does not fire at that voltage,
regardless of what Klause claims.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300+ hours
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gianni Zuliani" <gianni(at)comgz.com> |
| Subject: | Hybrid 14/28V system |
Hi Bob,
I'm planning to implement a 14V system very similar to your Z-13 schematic, but
including the possibility to power a 28V radio. To this end, I would use 2 SPDT
relays to put the SD-8 pm alternator (coupled with its own 7.2 Ah battery)
alternatively in series (in normal mode) or in parallel with the normal 14V system.
The parallel mode would be used in case of failure of the primary belt
driven alternator. In this emergency, only the SD-8 would be used to feed the
14V system while the 28V power would be attained (for about one hour, at the amperage
requested by the radio) by the small battery only, which of course would
always remain in series.
I've never seen something like this, but my experience in electrical systems is
very limited. That's why I'd like to hear your comments on my idea. Thank you.
Gianni Zuliani
Stag-Ez RG I-MEZE
http://www.comgz.com/Tristar.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
Bob,
I actually have Jeff Rose's EIs rather than LSE, and I've swapped my PM
starter for the new Skytec NL. WRT the "computer grade electrolytic
capacitor across the input power leads to the ignition system with a series
isolation diode", could you please furnish some actual part values and
possibly even a simple drawing for those (like me) who have four cylinder
Lycs and two EIs? I imagine that would help a lot of folks!
Thanks,
Troy Scott
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Amnmeter remote wiring |
I have a Velocity with battery and all (master, starter,
alternator) relays aft by the firewall and an ammeter from Pep
boys or some place like that on the pane. I am looking to put
one of B&C's 50 mv shunts on the firewall to measure alternator
output and another on a bulkhead near the panel to measure load
to the systems. I want to wire the ammeter to these shunts
through a DPDT switch. I assume that since this is a pretty
cheap common ammeter, it is built as generic as possible. I
further assume that a 50 mv movement is the most generic type
available. I assume again that I can strip the shunt out of
this ammeter and wire it through the switch to the shunts.
That's a LOT of assumptions. I need a sanity check around: a)
my assumptions; b) if any of the assumptions are off (show
stopper), how easy is it for me to come by an affordable ammeter
movement that I could wire through the switch to the shunt(s).
I have no idea what a generic ammeter should cost or where I
would find one.
Thanks .... Jim S.
--
Jim Sower ... Destiny's Plaything
Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | n3eu(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Hybrid 14/28V system |
Gianni Zuliani wrote:
> ...
> I'm planning to implement a 14V system very similar to your Z-13 schematic,
> but including the possibility to power a 28V radio....
I'd suggest you get the radio's service manual from www.esscoaircraft.com. To make it a 14V version, it may need only swapping out 28V lamps, or rewiring them for 14V, and maybe swapping/shorting a power resistor in the power supply section. Look for footnotes, "For 28V...."
Reg,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Smoke Test - problem |
Hi Bob,
I've got a head scratcher (for me anyway) on my electric pump circuit. Details
as follows:
1) Circuit (20 AWG) goes from hot side of battery > aux battery bus > 7A CB > switch
> small lamp from B&C (pump "on" warning) > pump.
2) As wired and with the switch "on", the light comes on but the pump doesn't run.
The voltage across the pump terminals shows only 0.8 volts.
3) To test the pump, I jumpered from the switch to the pump + terminal and the
pump ran.
Do you think the lamp is creating the problem or is there some other electrical
gremlin at work here?
Thanks, Rick Fogerson
RV3 (90% done and 90% to go)
Boise, ID
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Smoke Test - problem |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Rick
First, I'll state an assumption... You ground the negative
side of the pump in some way? Then, a question. Are all of
these components wired in series? ie, a single wire is strung
from the switch to one side of the lamp terminal, another wire
goes from the other side of the lamp to a terminal on the pump,
and then yet another wire goes from another terminal on the pump
to ground?
If the above assumptions are correct, I'll state that only some
components can be wired as you described. There are a couple of
problems that I can see. The first is that the pump is probably
designed to see 12V across its terminals. Placing the lamp in
series, causes most of the voltage to be dropped across its terminals
(maybe 11.2V). Once that voltage is lost through the lamp, it
isn't available to the pump.
The other problem that I see is that if the bulb fails (burns open),
it will turn off the pump. Its a bad deal when the indicator can
break the circuit being monitored.
A first-step better bet would be to wire the lamp and pump in parallel.
That means that from the switch you need two wires. One goes to the
+ terminal on the pump, and the other goes to a terminal on the lamp.
Then, each component needs a ground wire to complete the circuit. One
thing to consider is that it might be possible for the lamp to fail
shorted. This would cause the breaker to blow and the pump to be
unavailable. While failing shorted is unlikely for an incandescent
bulb, its something to consider.
A way around this problem is to use a 2 pole switch and seperate
circuit protection devices (breakers). This switch is designed to
control 2 seperate circuits. Then, you could use one breaker to provide
power to the indicator, and a seperate one to provide power to the pump.
Run a wire from each breaker up to each like terminal on the switch, and
then run individual wires from the switch to the pump and lamp. That's
the way I would do it...
So, is your airplane at one of the airports around Boise? I keep my
Varieze in Nampa..
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
>
>
> Hi Bob,
> I've got a head scratcher (for me anyway) on my electric pump circuit.
> Details as follows:
>
> 1) Circuit (20 AWG) goes from hot side of battery > aux battery bus > 7A
> CB > switch > small lamp from B&C (pump "on" warning) > pump.
>
> 2) As wired and with the switch "on", the light comes on but the pump
> doesn't run. The voltage across the pump terminals shows only 0.8
> volts.
>
> 3) To test the pump, I jumpered from the switch to the pump + terminal
> and the pump ran.
>
> Do you think the lamp is creating the problem or is there some other
> electrical gremlin at work here?
>
> Thanks, Rick Fogerson
> RV3 (90% done and 90% to go)
> Boise, ID
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Smoke Test - problem |
The lamp is definitely causing the problem (actually how it is wired is
the problem). Since the pump normally draws much more current than the
lamp, and they are connected in series, all the voltage is dropped
across the lamp and there is none left for the pump. You need to
connect the lamp and pump in parallel (side-by-side in the circuit).
Assuming that you want the light to illuminate when the power is applied
to the pump, just connect your circuit as you have it except from the
switch split the circuit. Out of the switch, run one wire to the lamp
and another wire to the pump. The other side of the lamp and the other
side of the pump both go to ground. That way, the power goes through
your chain of connections and you have 12V for both the pump and the lamp.
Dick Tasker
Rick Fogerson wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>I've got a head scratcher (for me anyway) on my electric pump circuit. Details
as follows:
>
>1) Circuit (20 AWG) goes from hot side of battery > aux battery bus > 7A CB >
switch > small lamp from B&C (pump "on" warning) > pump.
>
>2) As wired and with the switch "on", the light comes on but the pump doesn't
run. The voltage across the pump terminals shows only 0.8 volts.
>
>3) To test the pump, I jumpered from the switch to the pump + terminal and the
pump ran.
>
>Do you think the lamp is creating the problem or is there some other electrical
gremlin at work here?
>
>Thanks, Rick Fogerson
>RV3 (90% done and 90% to go)
>Boise, ID
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
| From: | "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer(at)genmar.com> |
Thanks for the numerous responses to my posting from two days ago. My observations:
Bob's test on his GMC van confirmed what I thought might be the case - a huge in-rush
current exists for a brief period at the start of a cranking event and
the LSE units don't like this spike nearby, sometimes causing them to "hiccup".
Whether this can be avoided with changes to the LSE units is immaterial, inasmuch
as I doubt Klaus will ask for mine back to modify.
Using a computer-grade diode to isolate the CDIs from this spike brings into the
schematic another device which may result in a single failure mode, which I
don't like with my plane having two LSE units.
So, I conclude the following:
I like using a separate isolated battery since it avoids the spike issue completely.
True, it adds another switch to the system, but the mechanical engineer
in me will take a good DPDT switch over a diode for reliability and troubleshooting
ease. Further, having a separate, small (3 Ah) battery provides that last
bit of back-up when/if all else in the aircraft's electrical system goes "Foxtrot-Uniform"
. Flip the isolation switch at that time and you have a direct
battery feed to the CDIs independent of everything else in the system. The current
draw on each LSE unit is spec'd at 1.3A, so a 3 Ah capacity should be good
for two hours of pucker-free operation. DigiKey lists a 12v sealed battery at
3.4 Ah weighing 2.6 lbs. for $25. Sounds like good insurance to me.
BTW, I have always assumed this battery would be lead-acid RG chemistry for electrical
characteristics consistency and avoid charging problems for the alternators.
Mark Neubauer
GlaStar N875ED (hopefully flying someday in 2005)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James E. Clark" <james(at)nextupventures.com> |
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma III |
Just a "ditto" on Ken's comment as I was there with him taking the
measurements.
An interesting question though (for me) is the following:
What if the voltage we were measuring dropped to 4 volts for just a msec
(faster than what we could detect) and then immediately came up to 8 and
stayed there for the few seconds of cranking? If the LSE "sees" 4 volts at
***ANY*** time and thus will NOT fire, at what voltage must it's supply
climb back UP to before it is ready to fire again??
Seems like I recall hysteresis effects on certain circuits from college days
MANY MOONS ago.
Or maybe I am totally off my rocker on this one. :-)
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Harrill
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:57 AM
> To: 'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma III
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> LSE ignition units work as low as 4~5 volts if memory serves, its
> listed on
> their web site. If your idea of the second battery works then either the
> IGN system has a problem or you by passed the problem somewhere else.
>
>
> Scott,
>
> On my RV-6, the voltage (measured at the ignition module) drops
> to around 8
> volts with the starter engaged, and the LSE does not fire at that voltage,
> regardless of what Klause claims.
>
>
> Ken Harrill
> RV-6, 300+ hours
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Sower <canarder(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Smoke Test - problem |
<... > switch > small lamp from B&C (pump "on" warning) > pump ... switch "on",
the light comes on but the pump doesn't run ... I jumpered from
the switch to the pump + terminal and the pump ran ...>
If light is in series with pump, it won't pass enough current to run pump. Wire
light from pump (+) to pump (-). That way, it will light when
pump is ON and not if switch is OFF or fuze blows. It will stay lit if pump fails
(open) internally, but there's not much you can do about that.
Just a theory ... Jim S.
Rick Fogerson wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
> I've got a head scratcher (for me anyway) on my electric pump circuit. Details
as follows:
>
> 1) Circuit (20 AWG) goes from hot side of battery > aux battery bus > 7A CB >
switch > small lamp from B&C (pump "on" warning) > pump.
>
> 2) As wired and with the switch "on", the light comes on but the pump doesn't
run. The voltage across the pump terminals shows only 0.8 volts.
>
> 3) To test the pump, I jumpered from the switch to the pump + terminal and the
pump ran.
>
> Do you think the lamp is creating the problem or is there some other electrical
gremlin at work here?
>
> Thanks, Rick Fogerson
> RV3 (90% done and 90% to go)
> Boise, ID
>
--
Jim Sower ... Destiny's Plaything
Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
>
>
>Thanks for the numerous responses to my posting from two days ago. My
>observations:
>
>Bob's test on his GMC van confirmed what I thought might be the case - a
>huge in-rush current exists for a brief period at the start of a cranking
>event and the LSE units don't like this spike nearby, sometimes causing
>them to "hiccup".
>
>Whether this can be avoided with changes to the LSE units is immaterial,
>inasmuch as I doubt Klaus will ask for mine back to modify.
>
>Using a computer-grade diode to isolate the CDIs from this spike brings
>into the schematic another device which may result in a single failure
>mode, which I don't like with my plane having two LSE units.
>
>So, I conclude the following:
>
>I like using a separate isolated battery since it avoids the spike issue
>completely. True, it adds another switch to the system, but the mechanical
>engineer in me will take a good DPDT switch over a diode for reliability
>and troubleshooting ease. Further, having a separate, small (3 Ah) battery
>provides that last bit of back-up when/if all else in the aircraft's
>electrical system goes "Foxtrot-Uniform" . Flip the isolation switch at
>that time and you have a direct battery feed to the CDIs independent of
>everything else in the system. The current draw on each LSE unit is spec'd
>at 1.3A, so a 3 Ah capacity should be good for two hours of pucker-free
>operation. DigiKey lists a 12v sealed battery at 3.4 Ah weighing 2.6 lbs.
>for $25. Sounds like good insurance to me.
One can be insurance-poor while still not solving the problem . . .
>BTW, I have always assumed this battery would be lead-acid RG chemistry
>for electrical characteristics consistency and avoid charging problems for
>the alternators.
What single point of failure? You only need for one ignition to
work to get the engine running. If you can simply delay turning on
one ignition until after the engine is cranking, then no mods are
necessary. If you can add a capacitor-diode combo to one ignition
then the problem is solved without affecting the other ignition
system. Let's narrow the study down to an event that happens during
a window of a second or two every flight cycle and run that dog
to ground while minimizing parts count (a part that isn't there
cannot fail), minimizing cost of ownership (batteries that are not
there do not need to be maintained), etc.
A 13th century philosopher once offered an illuminating simple
http://wotug.ukc.ac.uk/parallel/www/occam/occam-bio.html
In all of the possible solutions, there resides the most elegant,
simple answer that meets the goals with the least parts and
pilot/mechanic attention. The most obvious "solution" was for
the product to be immune to the stresses now identified
as antagonistic. Since you can't control the product, then
control the environment in which it operates.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
Bob,
Can you point me to an existing circuit drawing with this "cap+diode"
configuration or would I just place a rated capacitor in parallel with the
ignition power leads for a single ignition?
I have a Plasma II+ with one mag (non-impulse), a PM starter and plan engine
start this weekend. I would like to be prepared if I run into the same
issues.
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
> If you can add a capacitor-diode combo to one ignition
> then the problem is solved without affecting the other ignition
> system.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
>
>Bob,
>
>Can you point me to an existing circuit drawing with this "cap+diode"
>configuration or would I just place a rated capacitor in parallel with the
>ignition power leads for a single ignition?
>
>I have a Plasma II+ with one mag (non-impulse), a PM starter and plan engine
>start this weekend. I would like to be prepared if I run into the same
>issues.
Before we rush out and buy parts to bolt to an airplane,
it's useful to see if the idea is REALLY useful. The
BEST place to start is to get the manufacturer to quantify
the task. (1) What's the minimum voltage the ignition system
can tolerate and not become confused? (2) If the system DOES
become confused, will it recover gracefully if the voltage
rises above that threshold? (3) Would it be useful to add a diode
in series with the ignition system and then parallel a
capacitor across the power input leads to the ignition
system? (4) What size capacitor would you recommend?
(5) Would it be helpful to leave the ignition system OFF
until after the engine is in motion during the task
of getting the engine started?
If useful answers are not forthcoming . . . then we
can always do our own experiments to get the answers.
However, I'll suggest that any responsible manufacturer
owes you answers that make sense. It's not sufficient
for me to supply products to the certified world without
being prepared and able to address every question of
interest to my customers. This is completely separate
from issues of certification. Further, just because
certification isn't required doesn't give any supplier a
pass on timely, forthright and accurate responses to a
customer's system integration and operational questions.
I'm not trying to brush you off . . . just have lots of
things on my plate right now. I could launch into a project
to deduce answers to these questions . . . but anyone
else can do it too. I'd encourage anyone having
an interest in this topic to contact Lightspeed and open
a dialog to discuss alternatives to a separate battery
that supports an electronic ignition system solely for
the purpose of keeping it awake during a few seconds
at the beginning of each flight cycle.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
Mark Neubauer wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the numerous responses to my posting from two days ago. My
> observations:
>
> Bob's test on his GMC van confirmed what I thought might be the case - a
> huge in-rush current exists for a brief period at the start of a cranking
> event and the LSE units don't like this spike nearby, sometimes causing
> them to "hiccup".
>
> Whether this can be avoided with changes to the LSE units is immaterial,
> inasmuch as I doubt Klaus will ask for mine back to modify.
>
> Using a computer-grade diode to isolate the CDIs from this spike brings
> into the schematic another device which may result in a single failure
> mode, which I don't like with my plane having two LSE units.
>
> So, I conclude the following:
>
> I like using a separate isolated battery since it avoids the spike issue
> completely. True, it adds another switch to the system, but the mechanical
> engineer in me will take a good DPDT switch over a diode for reliability
> and troubleshooting ease. Further, having a separate, small (3 Ah) battery
> provides that last bit of back-up when/if all else in the aircraft's
> electrical system goes "Foxtrot-Uniform" . Flip the isolation switch at
> that time and you have a direct battery feed to the CDIs independent of
> everything else in the system. The current draw on each LSE unit is spec'd
> at 1.3A, so a 3 Ah capacity should be good for two hours of pucker-free
> operation. DigiKey lists a 12v sealed battery at 3.4 Ah weighing 2.6 lbs.
> for $25. Sounds like good insurance to me.
Are you going to follow Bob's best practices for battery maintenance? What if
your battery dies? Batteries have many more failure modes than diodes and
switches. Adding a battery adds a lot more hassle than a diode and capacitor,
and the whole combination will be MUCH lighter than the battery and switch.
To kill a diode you need to exceed either its current or voltage ratings for a
period of time. You can get a 100V 40A Schottky from Digikey for $2.77, far
more current than the switch could handle. And transient voltage spikes won't
last long enough to wipe it out.
MTBFs for diodes are generally rated in the millions of hours, and they're as
easy to diagnose as a switch. You just check both directions - current should
flow in one, but not in the other.
The capacitor is the same story. You can get a 40V 4700uF aluminum
electrolytic from DigiKey for $3.58 (this is a pretty high grade). 40V is its
maximum charge voltage - it will take a brief spike without complaint because
it won't charge fast enough to hurt itself. That's why capacitors have a
smoothing effect on voltage. Capacitor failure rates are around 3000 hours for
the device I picked, so you do have a maintenance item - just replace it at
overhaul. It's not rocket science.
So you're looking at a potentially <$6 solution that weighs all of two ounces,
mostly in the capacitor.
A switch and battery, on the other hand, introduce all sorts of problems.
They're many times heavier, and many times more expensive. You're also
installing a battery to support a transient load, so it's total overkill. I
understand your point about pucker factor but a properly designed electrical
system with a redundant main battery or alternator would provide the same
fault tolerance in the event of a failure, and it would be less pilot workload
during an emergency.
Most important, it may be LESS reliable in the long run.
What if your switch fails in flight, how will you know before your engine
dies? Switches are much more failure-prone than any of the devices listed
above. It's also why Bob advocates not having a master avionics switch - it's
a single point of failure. This switch would be a single point of failure for
your ignition. Would you install a switch warning light with a circuit that
senses a low-voltage condition on the ignition system's battery bus? Now
you're really increasing weight and parts count.
What if you just forget to flip the switch? It's fine to say you'll never
forget but we have warning buzzers for various things for a reason.
If you want redundancy in the control circuit you could put two diodes in
parallel much more cheaply and without visible effect compared to two switches
in parallel. Bob would probably not approve, since it's sort of like
installing a TVS to catch a spike that doesn't exist, but it's cheap
insurance, right?
What about the battery? Will you follow Bob's battery maintenance suggestions,
or could an engine re-start in flight leave you hanging because it wasn't
charging for some reason and only had enough juice to get you off the ground?
Will you rotate them out every year like your main battery? This could get
expensive.
One last comment. The diode and capacitor are what an engineer would have
installed INSIDE the LSE to fix this problem. (In fact you can do without the
diode, but it helps ensure the capacitor only tries to feed the critical
ignition subsystem.) Is the correct fix outside the box so bad?
Sorry I was so vehement, I must be picking some vibes up from Bob. =)
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
James Redmon wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Can you point me to an existing circuit drawing with this "cap+diode"
> configuration or would I just place a rated capacitor in parallel with the
> ignition power leads for a single ignition?
>
> I have a Plasma II+ with one mag (non-impulse), a PM starter and plan engine
> start this weekend. I would like to be prepared if I run into the same
> issues.
>
> James Redmon
> Berkut #013 N97TX
> http://www.berkut13.com
I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude ASCII
representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
Diode
Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
|
--- +
--- Cap
|
GND
Note that an electrolytic capacitor is polarized. One side will be clearly
labeled with a polarity marker. Usually it's the negative side, which goes to
ground. Be sure you install it in the correct direction. If the diode in the
picture isn't clear, the arrow points to the right. This is just like making a
little endurance bus just for the LSE with a capacitor to stabilize its voltage.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery contact screws |
Bob, you recommended 4 AWG for the cranking circuit. I'm seriously considering
a front-battery setup in my pusher which makes for a lengthy run to the
engine. Should I go with 2 AWG, or all the way down to 0? The batteries would
be at around FS4 and the engine is at around FS140, and add a few feet to get
from centerline to the electrical conduit, which is along the outside edge of
the fuse.
I seem to recall you having some rule of thumb for power dissipated by the
wiring to the starter during cranking, but can't seem to find it.
Thanks,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
Minor correction below - I meant to say (impulse-coupled) mag, but it
doesn't really make any difference for this question. Just my anal-side
showing through. ;-p
-James
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
>
> Bob,
>
> Can you point me to an existing circuit drawing with this "cap+diode"
> configuration or would I just place a rated capacitor in parallel with the
> ignition power leads for a single ignition?
>
> I have a Plasma II+ with one mag (non-impulse), a PM starter and plan
engine
> start this weekend. I would like to be prepared if I run into the same
> issues.
>
> James Redmon
> Berkut #013 N97TX
> http://www.berkut13.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | LSE Plasma III noise, Part Deux |
I am not having a lot of luck solving the LSE noise issue. I get a
background tone is when the LSE is switched on, whether or not the engine is
running.
At Klaus' request I moved the com antenna coax away from the LSE 12V power
leads. I shielded the 12V lead running from the battery to the CB. I then
bridged the shielding across the CB so it connects with the shield on the
12V input lead.
I still get the noise through my headset if the LSE is "ON", though it seems
to have diminished somewhat.
I tried installing the Radio Shack noise filter. At my first run, the
capacitor blew up. The markings on the capacitor are not intuitive and I
apparently got the polarity wrong. Went to R.S. and bought a replacement
220 microfarad, this time I got a 35V version.
I hooked it up again. At first there seemed to be no change. Then, after a
little fiddling, the tone seemed to fade in and out, as if someone was
slowly turning a volume control. Then, after that, I still got the tone
quite steady.
The only thing I have not yet done is to run the LSE shielded ground (yes
shielded, it is not shown on the on-line versions, but on my wiring diagram
the wires coming from pins 15 & 8 on the input connector are shielded
http://www.lsecorp.com/Manuals/PIIPIIPInputDiagram.htm ) ground from the
control module, all the way to the battery. Right now the ground is plugged
into my firewall ground bus.
Has anyone else had noise and radio problems with their LSE Plasma III? I
could use some experience here.
Thanks
Sam
Q-200 ~ 1,350 hours
>
>
>
>I thought I was finished with the installation of my LSE Plasma III into my
>all composite Q-200. I am running the one mag/one electronic system. I
>went out for the test flight, but the tower was unable to read me.
>"Aircraft calling ground, unreadable".
Have you listened to the output from your transmitter? You need
to have someone else talk to you while you're on a hand held 100'
or more away. What does the radio sound like? An "unreadable"
report may have nothing to do with the ignition system. Does the
tower say you're now quite clear with the ignition system off?
>After I fiddled with the squelch, I found there was a mid-range tone, quite
>loud, whenever I had the LSE switched ON. I shut down the engine and found
>the same thing; the noise was just as bad. (I have a Wag-Aero ICS Plus
>Nav/Com, about 12 years old).
If you're hearing noise in your headphones, then this may not
have anything to do with the radio. It might be an audio system
problem.
>I called Klaus and he said I was picking up inductive coupling from the
>oscillator. I admit I had diverted from his instructions just a little
bit.
>For the 12V supply I ran an unshielded wire from the battery to a 5A
breaker
>in the panel. From there, his shielded wire runs to the LSE brain box.
The
>shielded ground wire runs from the brain box to the ground buss, which is
>mounted about 18" aft of the firewall. His instructions say it should go
>all the way to the battery.
shielded ground wire?????
>My com antenna lead is RG58 and it runs in intimate proximity with the
>unshielded 12V supply line to the battery. The com antenna is in the
>vertical stab, and the battery is in the baggage compartment, aft of the
>passenger seat.
If you are hearing power supply noise from the ignition system
then it's 1000% better to filter it off at the source than
to re-route wires in an attempt to "live with the noise".
>Klaus suggested separating the com antenna leads from any power leads, and
>run shielded wire, straight to the battery per plans, including the CB.
That
>is what I now intend to do.
>
>
>Any more thoughts or suggestions?
These are all shots in the dark. Have you read the chapter on
noise? What experiments have you run to make sure we're talking
about the right antagonist, the right victim and then isolate
the propagation mode? If Klaus or anyone else has you changing
configuration of your installation wiring in an attempt to mitigate
a noise problem, then they're admitting that their product isn't
really suited for installation in your airplane.
Let's chop and hack on things because we've deduced the
action to be a useful thing to try instead of trying lots
of things because they "might" help.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
All true points. I was only suggesting the procurement of knowledge at this
point, not parts. Don't even know if I will have a problem at all.
Personally, I'll see how engine start (or at least the attempt) goes
tomorrow, and go from there. All systems are per Z-12 and I have had (knock
on wood) no problems what so ever thus far - all have been tested except
engine driven equipment.
You bet I'll be gathering data...will report findings - actually hoping
there will be none to report. ;-)
-James
> >Can you point me to an existing circuit drawing with this "cap+diode"
> >configuration or would I just place a rated capacitor in parallel with
the
> >ignition power leads for a single ignition?
> >
> >I have a Plasma II+ with one mag (non-impulse), a PM starter and plan
engine
> >start this weekend. I would like to be prepared if I run into the same
> >issues.
>
> Before we rush out and buy parts to bolt to an airplane,
> it's useful to see if the idea is REALLY useful. The
> BEST place to start is to get the manufacturer to quantify
> the task.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
Just a FYI. I have 3 firewall thru holes for cables. One for power, one for
instrumentation, and the other for the wires from the brain box to the
coils on the Elect IGN. If I try real hard I can hear very very faint alt
noise. So this worked for me.
>
>
>All true points. I was only suggesting the procurement of knowledge at this
>point, not parts. Don't even know if I will have a problem at all.
>Personally, I'll see how engine start (or at least the attempt) goes
>tomorrow, and go from there. All systems are per Z-12 and I have had (knock
>on wood) no problems what so ever thus far - all have been tested except
>engine driven equipment.
>
>You bet I'll be gathering data...will report findings - actually hoping
>there will be none to report. ;-)
>
>-James
>
>> >Can you point me to an existing circuit drawing with this "cap+diode"
>> >configuration or would I just place a rated capacitor in parallel with
>the
>> >ignition power leads for a single ignition?
>> >
>> >I have a Plasma II+ with one mag (non-impulse), a PM starter and plan
>engine
>> >start this weekend. I would like to be prepared if I run into the same
>> >issues.
>>
>> Before we rush out and buy parts to bolt to an airplane,
>> it's useful to see if the idea is REALLY useful. The
>> BEST place to start is to get the manufacturer to quantify
>> the task.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gerry Clabots" <gclabots(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Bus Heat Sink |
I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on the sub panel of my
RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a maximun of 10 amps load?
If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ross Mickey" <rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Bus Heat Sink |
Based on my recent conversations with Tim at B&C, the answer is...no one
knows. Bob has been planning on doing some testing but I don't think he
has gotten to it yet. I rigged my regulator up with an Intel CPU fan
with heat sink. I haven't done any testing yet but it sure looks like
it will help a lot.
Ross Mickey
N9PT
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus Heat Sink
>
>
> I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on
> the sub panel of my RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a
> maximun of 10 amps load?
> If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
> Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LSE Plasma III noise, Part Deux |
>
>I am not having a lot of luck solving the LSE noise issue. I get a
>background tone is when the LSE is switched on, whether or not the engine is
>running.
>
>At Klaus' request I moved the com antenna coax away from the LSE 12V power
>leads. I shielded the 12V lead running from the battery to the CB. I then
>bridged the shielding across the CB so it connects with the shield on the
>12V input lead.
>I still get the noise through my headset if the LSE is "ON", though it seems
>to have diminished somewhat.
>
>I tried installing the Radio Shack noise filter. At my first run, the
>capacitor blew up. The markings on the capacitor are not intuitive and I
>apparently got the polarity wrong. Went to R.S. and bought a replacement
>220 microfarad, this time I got a 35V version.
>
>I hooked it up again. At first there seemed to be no change. Then, after a
>little fiddling, the tone seemed to fade in and out, as if someone was
>slowly turning a volume control. Then, after that, I still got the tone
>quite steady.
>
>The only thing I have not yet done is to run the LSE shielded ground (yes
>shielded, it is not shown on the on-line versions, but on my wiring diagram
>the wires coming from pins 15 & 8 on the input connector are shielded
>http://www.lsecorp.com/Manuals/PIIPIIPInputDiagram.htm ) ground from the
>control module, all the way to the battery. Right now the ground is plugged
>into my firewall ground bus.
>
>Has anyone else had noise and radio problems with their LSE Plasma III? I
>could use some experience here.
First, rig a 12v battery from a pair of 6v lantern batteries
and run your ignition system from this battery. See if the noise
goes away. This will tell us if the noise is magnetically conducted,
electrically conducted, or radiated. Shielding is almost never an
issue with noises except when it has been improperly "grounded".
Let's do the battery test first and see what happens. Oh, is this
noise pretty loud compared to real signals? Had a builder spend a lot
of time chasing a noise out of his audio that turned out to be so
small that the only time he would hear it was sitting in the cockpit
with the engine not running. While in flight and in comparison to
normal communications signals, the noise was inaudible.
Don't forget that the ears have tremendous dynamic range
and just 'cause you can hear something when all else is quiet
doesn't mean it's going to be objectionable during normal operations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus Heat Sink |
I am not sure what you mean by your subpanel. If it is what I am
thinking of and is relatively thick like mine (from Affordable Panel -
0.090") then that is plenty. Just to give a little extra safety factor
you can use a dab of heat sink grease (Radio Shack Catalog #: 276-1372)
between the diode block and the subpanel. Make sure the diode block is
screwed securely and firmly to the subpanel. At ten amps you will be
dissipating 6-8 watts which could probably be handled by the diode block
by itself so attaching it to the subpanel with heat sink grease will
allow it to run very cool.
Dick Tasker
Gerry Clabots wrote:
>
>I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on the sub panel of my
RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a maximun of 10 amps load?
>If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
>Gerry
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
A while back I saw a strange little gauge on Ebay. It's a turn and slip
indicator, but it's rectangular. 1" high by 2" wide. I got it for $12.
It says it's a JET p/n 501-1186-01, and it's also marked as an ARU-54/A. I
tried for a while to get a wiring diagram for it, but got nowhere. Finally
I found that an ARU-54/A comes out of an AV8B Harrier. Since I work at
Boeing, I started sending some emails, and finally found someone who told
me that the generic part number from JET (now L3) is TSI-100A.
So I did some more research, and finally got JET to send me a pin
out. It's 24v DC, internally lit 5v DC. I also found a price list on
line. The box that I bought (in working condition, BTW) for $12 has a list
price of $24,425.
Yes, it is going in my panel.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Bus Heat Sink |
Well, last I checked power=volts * amps. Therefore the diode we will assume
is a Schottky, with low voltage drop, let's assume 0.5 Volt. Then you said
you have 10Amps, so .5*10=5Watts. 5 Watts will generate some heat in an
enclosed box, however having the diode mounted such that it is open to the
air should be enough to keep it cool. A good way to check it is to connect
it up and turn every thing on and lightly touch it, if it is really hot then
put heat sink on it.
Regards,
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross
Mickey
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus Heat Sink
Based on my recent conversations with Tim at B&C, the answer is...no one
knows. Bob has been planning on doing some testing but I don't think he
has gotten to it yet. I rigged my regulator up with an Intel CPU fan
with heat sink. I haven't done any testing yet but it sure looks like
it will help a lot.
Ross Mickey
N9PT
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus Heat Sink
>
>
> I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on
> the sub panel of my RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a
> maximun of 10 amps load?
> If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
> Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus Heat Sink |
>
>I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on the sub panel
>of my RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a maximun of 10 amps load?
>If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
It's probably fine on any metal surface that's part of the airplane.
Is your 10A load continuous or just peaks at that load during transmit?
The continuous load is the critical number but even at 10A, bolting
it to an aluminum surface with a layer of heat-sink grease under it
is going to be fine. You can get a little tube of heat-sink grease
at Radio Shack.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | separate battery for EI |
<< Since you can't control the product, then
control the environment in which it operates.
Bob . . .>>
BRAVO!! BRAVO!!
Lately I see discussions mostly about voltage/EI problems. Actually, MANY
of the affordable, uncertified products (and some certified ones!) we
builders like to use have similar problems. I believe one adjustment to the
power system is more practical than trying to retrofit external fixes to
each problematic device.
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
Chad,
I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor connects
to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
<-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
|
--- +
--- Cap
|
GND
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Essential Bus Heat Sink |
>I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on the sub panel
of my
>RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a maximum of 10 amps load?
>If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
>Gerry
SMART PILL#1: http://w1.859.telia.com/~u85920178/begin/heat-0.htm
Review: I have designed scores of heatsinks and read hundreds of technical
guides. I even made A's in thermodynamics classes. This was written by a
Swedish gentleman named Harry Lythall (SM0VPO) and it is stunningly clear
and the best thing I have ever seen on the subject. Great Job! Someone
should give this guy that Swedish prize medal thingy!
SMART PILL#2: A Schottky diode has very low forward voltage drop. Your
cellphone has no antique P-N power-hog diodes, so why does your airplane
deserve less? At 10 Amps, the Schottky dissipates 3.2W. A P-N diode
dissipates 9.2W. Now 6 Watts of power doesn't seem like much. But if your
engine is 20% efficient and your alternator is 40% efficient (typical). It
costs you 75W or 1/10 HP all the time--even if you don't consider the
additional weight penalty the added heatsink imposes. Thanks for the free
advertising. Buy my Space Shuttle Switch Guards! They are stunning!
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
Troy Scott wrote:
>
> Chad,
>
> I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor connects
> to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
> completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
> tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
>
> < ASCII
> representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
> out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>
> Diode
> Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> |
> --- +
> --- Cap
> |
> GND
It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and capacitor
will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor the
LSE really care.
At times when the main bus voltage drops, the diode will turn off and the
capacitor will power the LSE. A small capacitor doesn't have enough energy to
support the LSE for seconds or minutes, but for transients like the starter
inrush it should be fine as long as it's large enough.
If you want the actual math, well, hopefully I don't mix this up but here goes.
A capacitor time constant is the time it takes to charge to 63 percent of its
capacity, or discharge to 36.8%. It's a curve, so while discharging, about
half a time constant leaves it at around 60% capacity, which would be around
8V. Hopefully the LSE will work down to that. If not, go buy something else. =)
The formula for a time constant is t = R * C. We want t, we know C (let's use
4700uF as a starting point), and we don't know R. However, given that the LSE
draws about 1.3A this is similar to discharging the capacitor into a 10 ohm
resistor to ground. So t = 10 * .0047 or 0.047 seconds (47 milliseconds). Half
that is 23.5 milliseconds, and that is how long we should expect this
capacitor to support this device when the main bus voltage disappears.
Now, I don't know how long your starter inrush lasts but the best estimate I
have from a few quick Google searches is to expect between 30 and 50
milliseconds. So you probably want double or triple the 4700uF I suggested,
sorry about that (I just grabbed a moderately high number out of a hat).
Digikey sells a Panasonic 12000 uF capacitor $6.38 that is rated for up to
50V. It adds a buck or two to the earlier estimate but it's still not bad.
You can get away with a smaller value if your LSE is only drawing 1.2A instead
of 1.3A, if you parallel two of them (paralleling capacitors sums their
values), if the LSE will work to a lower voltage (maybe 6-7V?), or if your
starter inrush is of a shorter duration. Maybe Bob can provide some
expectations for that. I seem to recall him having some oscilloscope graphs of
these events.
Also, this back-of-napkin-math is sort of a worst-case view. It assumes inrush
is basically a square wave - it disappears, it stays gone, it comes back - but
inrush doesn't work that way. The voltage drops in a hurry but returns in a
curve and as soon as it gets above what the capacitor is at plus the diode's
voltage drop, the main bus will take the load back over. That means the
capacitor doesn't have to hold the line the entire time for the main bus to
get back to 13.8V. Assuming your minimum tolerance is 8V, it only has to get
you through to the point where you're back up to 8.5V. A good capture
oscilloscope would tell you what's what here, or you can just add a dollar or
two, buy a monster capacitor, and call it a day.
An easier way is to find somebody who salvages capacitors from old
electronics. A single computer power supply will give up 5-10 of them, just be
sure they're rated for at least 15V. You can also find these in trashed
electronics at dumps/transfer stations. Even if you exceed the voltage rating
for a test or two it won't be the end of the world. They're really easy to
identify - they look like small cans, and have a minus sign on a silver or
gold band on one side. Try them out, adding one 4700uF at a time in parallel,
until you find a combination that eliminates your problem, then add up the
values, add some margin, and use that figure to determine which actual value
to buy. You only need to buy the expensive variety for safety and lifetime in
a permanent installation.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Greg Campbell ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Greg Campbell
Subject: Piper Style Ground Power Socket with bolted center connector
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/GregCampbellUSA@earthlink.net.03.27.2004/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
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Email the information above and your files and photos to:
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Battery on its side? |
I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here. Since
it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
vertical room...
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richard(at)riley.net |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
How about replacing the cap with a couple of lithium batteries? A C size
Tadiran holds 8.5 AH at 3.6v, with 3 of them you'd have protection for
starting, backup for electrical failure, light weight...
>
>
>Troy Scott wrote:
>
> >
> > Chad,
> >
> > I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
> connects
> > to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
> > completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Troy
> > tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
> >
> > < > ASCII
> > representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
> > out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
> >
> > Diode
> > Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> > |
> > --- +
> > --- Cap
> > |
> > GND
>
>It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
>will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
>voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
>voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
>about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and capacitor
>will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
>will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor the
>LSE really care.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Nellis" <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
| Subject: | Battery on its side? |
The battery in my Honda RC51 motorcycle sits on its side and works fine.
Mike Nellis
RV-6 Fuselage N699BM
1947 Stinson 108-2 NC9666K
http://bmnellis.com
*** -----Original Message-----
*** From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
*** [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
*** Behalf Of Chad Robinson
*** Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 4:06 PM
*** To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
*** Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery on its side?
***
***
*** -->
***
*** I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought
*** I'd ask here. Since
*** it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is
*** it best to keep it
*** upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more
*** horizontal than
*** vertical room...
***
*** Regards,
*** Chad
***
***
*** ==============
*** Matronics Forums.
*** ==============
*** ==============
*** http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
*** http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list
*** http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list
*** ==============
***
***
***
***
***
***
***
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
I am interested if anyone would want a device that could take 8-30Vdc input
and provide 12.0Vdc output filtered at about 2 Amps. I was just noting that
I have designed such a power supply for my engine monitor. That is I
designed my system to handle low voltage, noisy power and other problems.
However it seems that others have not, so I was wondering if it would be a
good idea to provide a small little device which filters and provides a nice
clean 12Vdc for other devices. By the way the weight for my power supply is
much less than the radio shack filters most people are using.
The product I am thinking of would be:
8v - 30V (3.2-1 Amp) input, yes 8V input produces 12V output
12V DC output @ 2 Amp filtered
Plus internal self resetting circuit breaker
Maybe optional low voltage and over current warning indicators?
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
richard(at)riley.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
How about replacing the cap with a couple of lithium batteries? A C size
Tadiran holds 8.5 AH at 3.6v, with 3 of them you'd have protection for
starting, backup for electrical failure, light weight...
>
>
>Troy Scott wrote:
>
> >
> > Chad,
> >
> > I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
> connects
> > to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will
never
> > completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Troy
> > tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
> >
> > < > ASCII
> > representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it
comes
> > out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
> >
> > Diode
> > Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> > |
> > --- +
> > --- Cap
> > |
> > GND
>
>It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
>will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
>voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
>voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is
only
>about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and
capacitor
>will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging -
it
>will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor
the
>LSE really care.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
True enough. I started out by simply suggesting a smaller battery than the
original poster. It was Bob that suggested even a capacitor could do the
trick. If it can be sized properly, the capacitor is definitely the LIGHTEST
option. My real vote is for the diode to replace the switch, since I believe
it will produce a much more reliable (and lower pilot workload) solution.
There is admittedly some advantage in having a battery since it would provide
some power redundancy to this critical device. But I prefer Bob's dual-battery
or dual-alternator layouts for that, since if I have a power failure I
certainly care about more than just the ignition system. For example, I sort
of might like to still have one radio available while I am trying to land as
quickly as possible... =)
richard(at)riley.net wrote:
>
> How about replacing the cap with a couple of lithium batteries? A C size
> Tadiran holds 8.5 AH at 3.6v, with 3 of them you'd have protection for
> starting, backup for electrical failure, light weight...
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Troy Scott wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Chad,
>>>
>>>I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
>>
>>connects
>>
>>>to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
>>>completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Troy
>>>tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
>>>
>>><>>ASCII
>>>representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
>>>out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>>>
>>> Diode
>>>Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
>>> |
>>> --- +
>>> --- Cap
>>> |
>>> GND
>>
>>It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
>>will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
>>voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
>>voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
>>about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and capacitor
>>will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
>>will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor the
>>LSE really care.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | LR3C-14 always flashes |
I have an LR3C-14 from B&C, and no matter what's happening, the low voltage
light always flashes. This is the case whether I just turned on the master
switch (anywhere from 12.1 to 13.5 volts on the main bus), or if the engine
is running and the alternator (B&C 40A L-40 alternator) is turned on (14.2
volts on the main bus).
I ran through B&C's troubleshooting list for the LR3C-14, and everything
checks out just fine. Still, the low voltage light continues to flash no
matter what the occasion.
I plan on contacting B&C on Monday, but does anybody have any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:09:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
crobinson(at)rfgonline.com writes:
I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here.
Since
it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
vertical room...
Regards,
Chad
Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid battery
(even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze type plate
separator.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Separate Start Battery |
Chad,
Thanks for the enlightening post!
The fact that the cap would only charge to the lower voltage IS what my EE
friend was referring to.
I'm a pipe organ builder. We build large low-voltage DC systems. With
old-fashioned combination actions, the power supply would pulse every
drawknob in the console whenever a piston button was pushed. Occasionally
we would have a problem where there just wasn't enough "kick" to move them
all at once. For 25 years or so. we always installed the same big blue
capacitor to solve the problem. I haven't seen one in a long time, as our
new systems are smarter and only pulse the controls that actually need to
move. Anyway, it NEVER occurred to me to check the value of the capacitor!
That was BB and BAC (Before Bob and Before AeroElectric Connection). The
big blue cap was about 7 inches tall and about three inches in diameter.
Are we talking about one like that?
Regards,
Troy
Troy Scott wrote:
>
> Chad,
>
> I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
connects
> to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
> completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
> tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
>
> < ASCII
> representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it
comes
> out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>
> Diode
> Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> |
> --- +
> --- Cap
> |
> GND
It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and
capacitor
will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor
the
LSE really care.
At times when the main bus voltage drops, the diode will turn off and the
capacitor will power the LSE. A small capacitor doesn't have enough energy
to
support the LSE for seconds or minutes, but for transients like the starter
inrush it should be fine as long as it's large enough.
If you want the actual math, well, hopefully I don't mix this up but here
goes.
A capacitor time constant is the time it takes to charge to 63 percent of
its
capacity, or discharge to 36.8%. It's a curve, so while discharging, about
half a time constant leaves it at around 60% capacity, which would be around
8V. Hopefully the LSE will work down to that. If not, go buy something else.
=)
The formula for a time constant is t = R * C. We want t, we know C (let's
use
4700uF as a starting point), and we don't know R. However, given that the
LSE
draws about 1.3A this is similar to discharging the capacitor into a 10 ohm
resistor to ground. So t = 10 * .0047 or 0.047 seconds (47 milliseconds).
Half
that is 23.5 milliseconds, and that is how long we should expect this
capacitor to support this device when the main bus voltage disappears.
Now, I don't know how long your starter inrush lasts but the best estimate I
have from a few quick Google searches is to expect between 30 and 50
milliseconds. So you probably want double or triple the 4700uF I suggested,
sorry about that (I just grabbed a moderately high number out of a hat).
Digikey sells a Panasonic 12000 uF capacitor $6.38 that is rated for up to
50V. It adds a buck or two to the earlier estimate but it's still not bad.
You can get away with a smaller value if your LSE is only drawing 1.2A
instead
of 1.3A, if you parallel two of them (paralleling capacitors sums their
values), if the LSE will work to a lower voltage (maybe 6-7V?), or if your
starter inrush is of a shorter duration. Maybe Bob can provide some
expectations for that. I seem to recall him having some oscilloscope graphs
of
these events.
Also, this back-of-napkin-math is sort of a worst-case view. It assumes
inrush
is basically a square wave - it disappears, it stays gone, it comes back -
but
inrush doesn't work that way. The voltage drops in a hurry but returns in a
curve and as soon as it gets above what the capacitor is at plus the diode's
voltage drop, the main bus will take the load back over. That means the
capacitor doesn't have to hold the line the entire time for the main bus to
get back to 13.8V. Assuming your minimum tolerance is 8V, it only has to get
you through to the point where you're back up to 8.5V. A good capture
oscilloscope would tell you what's what here, or you can just add a dollar
or
two, buy a monster capacitor, and call it a day.
An easier way is to find somebody who salvages capacitors from old
electronics. A single computer power supply will give up 5-10 of them, just
be
sure they're rated for at least 15V. You can also find these in trashed
electronics at dumps/transfer stations. Even if you exceed the voltage
rating
for a test or two it won't be the end of the world. They're really easy to
identify - they look like small cans, and have a minus sign on a silver or
gold band on one side. Try them out, adding one 4700uF at a time in
parallel,
until you find a combination that eliminates your problem, then add up the
values, add some margin, and use that figure to determine which actual value
to buy. You only need to buy the expensive variety for safety and lifetime
in
a permanent installation.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Troy Scott" <tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | separate start battery |
Trampas,
What happens to the output when/if the output voltage drops to 4 volts?
The device you've described should probably be part of many devices. I'm
thinking specifically of the BMA EFIS One and the ElectroAir EI systems. At
any rate, For your product to have good value for me, it would need to be
bigger than two amps. I would need minimum of 5.1 amps to keep the EFIS One
and one Electroair EI unit running well during engine start. A second,
smaller unit could be used for the other EI on another bus, to avoid the
"all my eggs in one basket" problem. BTW, before I get lambasted :-), I
know that some protection may be built into these devices, but BMA has
published a "fix" that uses a diode-protected auxiliary battery. Jeff Rose
at Electroair told me he's had a few problems, but only when his product is
used with a PM starter and subjected to the reduced starting voltage.
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
I am interested if anyone would want a device that could take 8-30Vdc input
and provide 12.0Vdc output filtered at about 2 Amps. I was just noting that
I have designed such a power supply for my engine monitor. That is I
designed my system to handle low voltage, noisy power and other problems.
However it seems that others have not, so I was wondering if it would be a
good idea to provide a small little device which filters and provides a nice
clean 12Vdc for other devices. By the way the weight for my power supply is
much less than the radio shack filters most people are using.
The product I am thinking of would be:
8v - 30V (3.2-1 Amp) input, yes 8V input produces 12V output
12V DC output @ 2 Amp filtered
Plus internal self resetting circuit breaker
Maybe optional low voltage and over current warning indicators?
Regards,
Trampas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
All,
I'd like to report a very successful first engine run on Berkut #013 N97TX
yesterday. All mechanical systems are working flawlessly.
One problem that I can't really figure out that I would like to bounce off
of the group. I have the Z-12 installation by the book, (1) 17ah RG
battery, L-60 and L-20 B&C alts/regulators. It's in canard pusher
configuration with the long runs only for the panel power, all
charging/starting fat wires are in the aft compartment. I have the ACS2002
(flat panel) engine monitor system installed.
After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as it
should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same thing
happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
alternator is engaged.
No cables get hot, no current limiters blow....and through all the systems
testing, not so much as a blown fuse to date. No electrical noise detected
on tests either...alts on and off. Resistance from ground lead on battery
to anywhere on engine block is .3 ohms. All wired with #4 and #2 cables on
starter/charging/ground systems.
Thoughts?
Bad sensor, or sensor calibration? Bad battery? Where should I start
looking?
C'mon, you "been there, done that" guys....whatcha think?
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
(pics and movies to be posted shortly)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
>
>
>I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here.
>Since
>it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
>upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
>vertical room...
To my knowledge, only Concord recommends NOT running their
RG batteries upside down . . . their technology of choice
as a small amount of free liquid and if an upside-down battery
vents, it will expel a small amount of water and acid. Aside
from this narrowly defined caveat, I not aware of any reason
to be concerned about operating position with RG batteries.
Many builders have been operating the 17 a.h. batteries large
side down for years. I have an RG battery in my un-interruptible
power supply for the office computers that has been operating
on-end for 4+ years. Even the Concords would be okay in
operationally as long as you don't beat them into wetting their
pants.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
>
>I have an LR3C-14 from B&C, and no matter what's happening, the low voltage
>light always flashes. This is the case whether I just turned on the master
>switch (anywhere from 12.1 to 13.5 volts on the main bus), or if the engine
>is running and the alternator (B&C 40A L-40 alternator) is turned on (14.2
>volts on the main bus).
>
>I ran through B&C's troubleshooting list for the LR3C-14, and everything
>checks out just fine. Still, the low voltage light continues to flash no
>matter what the occasion.
>
>I plan on contacting B&C on Monday, but does anybody have any ideas?
Can you give us voltage measurements taken from the power
input pins while the bus voltage is normal? If the power
input pins are all within a tenth or so volts of the bus,
then the LR3 has some problem internally. How is the LR3
grounded?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
>
>
>True enough. I started out by simply suggesting a smaller battery than the
>original poster. It was Bob that suggested even a capacitor could do the
>trick. If it can be sized properly, the capacitor is definitely the LIGHTEST
>option. My real vote is for the diode to replace the switch, since I believe
>it will produce a much more reliable (and lower pilot workload) solution.
>
>There is admittedly some advantage in having a battery since it would provide
>some power redundancy to this critical device. But I prefer Bob's
>dual-battery
>or dual-alternator layouts for that, since if I have a power failure I
>certainly care about more than just the ignition system. For example, I sort
>of might like to still have one radio available while I am trying to land as
>quickly as possible... =)
Why quickly as possible? Is your load analysis so dismal that
you cannot comfortably continue until fuel is exhausted?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate Start Battery |
Heck, no! =) A capacitor of that size would be in the farad range, not milli-
or micro-farads.
I picked a cap at random without investigating the data sheets too much, so I
don't SPECIFICALLY endorse this exact one (I havne't checked lifetime, temp
range etc.) but here's a link to the one I picked:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=6175&Row=333456&Site=US
The data sheet says this is a cylinder about 3.5cm x 3.5cm (1.37" x 1.37").
They come in all shapes and sizes so if you prefer longer and thinner you can
pick a different series or brand.
By the way, this is also the solution used by car audio enthusiasts to
stabilize line voltage when driving high-wattage amplifier and speaker loads.
However, we're talking hundreds to thousands of watts there, so your "big fat
friend" would be more applicable there. Those things are in the 0.5-1.0 farad
range, and cost $80-$200. To give you some idea of the scale, the 0.5 farad
capacitor is listed as being ideal for "systems up to 500 watts". That's the
equivalent of your LSE drawing 36 amps at 13.8V...
Troy Scott wrote:
>
> Chad,
>
> Thanks for the enlightening post!
> The fact that the cap would only charge to the lower voltage IS what my EE
> friend was referring to.
> I'm a pipe organ builder. We build large low-voltage DC systems. With
> old-fashioned combination actions, the power supply would pulse every
> drawknob in the console whenever a piston button was pushed. Occasionally
> we would have a problem where there just wasn't enough "kick" to move them
> all at once. For 25 years or so. we always installed the same big blue
> capacitor to solve the problem. I haven't seen one in a long time, as our
> new systems are smarter and only pulse the controls that actually need to
> move. Anyway, it NEVER occurred to me to check the value of the capacitor!
> That was BB and BAC (Before Bob and Before AeroElectric Connection). The
> big blue cap was about 7 inches tall and about three inches in diameter.
> Are we talking about one like that?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
>
>
>
>
> Troy Scott wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Chad,
>>
>>I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
>
> connects
>
>>to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
>>completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>>
>>Regards,
>>Troy
>>tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
>>
>><>ASCII
>>representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it
>
> comes
>
>>out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>>
>> Diode
>>Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
>> |
>> --- +
>> --- Cap
>> |
>> GND
>
>
> It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
> will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
> voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
> voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
> about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and
> capacitor
> will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
> will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor
> the
> LSE really care.
>
> At times when the main bus voltage drops, the diode will turn off and the
> capacitor will power the LSE. A small capacitor doesn't have enough energy
> to
> support the LSE for seconds or minutes, but for transients like the starter
> inrush it should be fine as long as it's large enough.
>
> If you want the actual math, well, hopefully I don't mix this up but here
> goes.
>
> A capacitor time constant is the time it takes to charge to 63 percent of
> its
> capacity, or discharge to 36.8%. It's a curve, so while discharging, about
> half a time constant leaves it at around 60% capacity, which would be around
> 8V. Hopefully the LSE will work down to that. If not, go buy something else.
> =)
>
> The formula for a time constant is t = R * C. We want t, we know C (let's
> use
> 4700uF as a starting point), and we don't know R. However, given that the
> LSE
> draws about 1.3A this is similar to discharging the capacitor into a 10 ohm
> resistor to ground. So t = 10 * .0047 or 0.047 seconds (47 milliseconds).
> Half
>
> that is 23.5 milliseconds, and that is how long we should expect this
> capacitor to support this device when the main bus voltage disappears.
>
> Now, I don't know how long your starter inrush lasts but the best estimate I
> have from a few quick Google searches is to expect between 30 and 50
> milliseconds. So you probably want double or triple the 4700uF I suggested,
> sorry about that (I just grabbed a moderately high number out of a hat).
>
> Digikey sells a Panasonic 12000 uF capacitor $6.38 that is rated for up to
> 50V. It adds a buck or two to the earlier estimate but it's still not bad.
>
> You can get away with a smaller value if your LSE is only drawing 1.2A
> instead
>
> of 1.3A, if you parallel two of them (paralleling capacitors sums their
> values), if the LSE will work to a lower voltage (maybe 6-7V?), or if your
> starter inrush is of a shorter duration. Maybe Bob can provide some
> expectations for that. I seem to recall him having some oscilloscope graphs
> of
>
> these events.
>
> Also, this back-of-napkin-math is sort of a worst-case view. It assumes
> inrush
>
> is basically a square wave - it disappears, it stays gone, it comes back -
> but
>
> inrush doesn't work that way. The voltage drops in a hurry but returns in a
> curve and as soon as it gets above what the capacitor is at plus the diode's
> voltage drop, the main bus will take the load back over. That means the
> capacitor doesn't have to hold the line the entire time for the main bus to
> get back to 13.8V. Assuming your minimum tolerance is 8V, it only has to get
> you through to the point where you're back up to 8.5V. A good capture
> oscilloscope would tell you what's what here, or you can just add a dollar
> or
> two, buy a monster capacitor, and call it a day.
>
> An easier way is to find somebody who salvages capacitors from old
> electronics. A single computer power supply will give up 5-10 of them, just
> be
>
> sure they're rated for at least 15V. You can also find these in trashed
> electronics at dumps/transfer stations. Even if you exceed the voltage
> rating
> for a test or two it won't be the end of the world. They're really easy to
> identify - they look like small cans, and have a minus sign on a silver or
> gold band on one side. Try them out, adding one 4700uF at a time in
> parallel,
>
> until you find a combination that eliminates your problem, then add up the
> values, add some margin, and use that figure to determine which actual value
> to buy. You only need to buy the expensive variety for safety and lifetime
> in
> a permanent installation.
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
KITFOXZ(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:09:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> crobinson(at)rfgonline.com writes:
>
> I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here.
> Since
> it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
> upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
> vertical room...
>
> Regards,
> Chad
> Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid battery
> (even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze type plate
> separator.
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Yes, but will it work as efficiently? In an RG battery, is there some air/gas
space at the top and if so, will placing the battery on its side flood an
unused portion with electrolyte while starving a side plate (now at the top)?
I'm getting some feedback that this is fine, but I'd love the scientific
answer just to be safe. Once I make this decision it will be difficult to go back.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | separate start battery |
Well I could design one that has large current capabilities, of course it
would weigh more.
As far as what happens when power drops to 4 volts, consider that if you are
drawing 5 amps at 12volts then this is 60watts of power, thus you would need
to provide 60watts of power at 4 volts or 15Amps. The problem here is that
if your circuit is drawing 5Amps at 12V you most likely did not wire plane
to handle 15Amps. Thus it is better to limit the device operation to 8V as
not to have excessive current draw on a circuit that was not designed for
it.
Regards,
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy
Scott
Subject: AeroElectric-List: separate start battery
Trampas,
What happens to the output when/if the output voltage drops to 4 volts?
The device you've described should probably be part of many devices. I'm
thinking specifically of the BMA EFIS One and the ElectroAir EI systems. At
any rate, For your product to have good value for me, it would need to be
bigger than two amps. I would need minimum of 5.1 amps to keep the EFIS One
and one Electroair EI unit running well during engine start. A second,
smaller unit could be used for the other EI on another bus, to avoid the
"all my eggs in one basket" problem. BTW, before I get lambasted :-), I
know that some protection may be built into these devices, but BMA has
published a "fix" that uses a diode-protected auxiliary battery. Jeff Rose
at Electroair told me he's had a few problems, but only when his product is
used with a PM starter and subjected to the reduced starting voltage.
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217(at)bellsouth.net
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
I am interested if anyone would want a device that could take 8-30Vdc input
and provide 12.0Vdc output filtered at about 2 Amps. I was just noting that
I have designed such a power supply for my engine monitor. That is I
designed my system to handle low voltage, noisy power and other problems.
However it seems that others have not, so I was wondering if it would be a
good idea to provide a small little device which filters and provides a nice
clean 12Vdc for other devices. By the way the weight for my power supply is
much less than the radio shack filters most people are using.
The product I am thinking of would be:
8v - 30V (3.2-1 Amp) input, yes 8V input produces 12V output
12V DC output @ 2 Amp filtered
Plus internal self resetting circuit breaker
Maybe optional low voltage and over current warning indicators?
Regards,
Trampas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
> Can you give us voltage measurements taken from the power
> input pins while the bus voltage is normal? If the power
> input pins are all within a tenth or so volts of the bus,
> then the LR3 has some problem internally. How is the LR3
> grounded?
You bet...will take those readings today when I re-recheck all the wiring.
As per the instructions, pin 7 is grounded to the firewall forest of ground
tabs, and I went ahead and grounded the stud on the case all the way there
as well for redundancy...despite the instructions saying the case ground
wasn't required on an aluminum airframe installation.
Will be back in a bit with some more data...
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
Hi James,
What style of ammeter are you using? Do you have shunts in the b-leads to
the alternators. If so, I would guess that something about the wire run
between
the shunt and the ACS2002 was not quite right. My thinking is that
there might
be a ground loop in the connections of the ACS2002 and the shunts. Does
turning
the alternator off immediately run the ammeter reading to zero, or does
it take
time for it to bleed down? Still assuming shunts, you could probably
disconnect
the sense connections on the shunts. Then, with the engine running you
could use
your handy DVM to take readings with the alternator off and on.
Since your bus voltage remains stable, that suggests that the ammeter
readings
are bogus. If your alternator was really putting out as much juice as
the ammeter
indicates, your buss voltage would rise...
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
James Redmon wrote:
>
>All,
>
>I'd like to report a very successful first engine run on Berkut #013 N97TX
>yesterday. All mechanical systems are working flawlessly.
>
>One problem that I can't really figure out that I would like to bounce off
>of the group. I have the Z-12 installation by the book, (1) 17ah RG
>battery, L-60 and L-20 B&C alts/regulators. It's in canard pusher
>configuration with the long runs only for the panel power, all
>charging/starting fat wires are in the aft compartment. I have the ACS2002
>(flat panel) engine monitor system installed.
>
>After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
>did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
>off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as it
>should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
>slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
>climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same thing
>happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
>alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
>alternator is engaged.
>
>No cables get hot, no current limiters blow....and through all the systems
>testing, not so much as a blown fuse to date. No electrical noise detected
>on tests either...alts on and off. Resistance from ground lead on battery
>to anywhere on engine block is .3 ohms. All wired with #4 and #2 cables on
>starter/charging/ground systems.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Bad sensor, or sensor calibration? Bad battery? Where should I start
>looking?
>
>C'mon, you "been there, done that" guys....whatcha think?
>
>James Redmon
>Berkut #013 N97TX
>http://www.berkut13.com
>(pics and movies to be posted shortly)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
>>Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid battery
>>(even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze type plate
>>separator.
>>
>>John P. Marzluf
>>Columbus, Ohio
>>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>>
>>
>
>Yes, but will it work as efficiently? In an RG battery, is there some air/gas
>space at the top and if so, will placing the battery on its side flood an
>unused portion with electrolyte while starving a side plate (now at the top)?
>
>
The electrolyte in an RG battery is absorbed in glass mats between the
plates. There is no free electrolyte to run anywhere. It is permanently
trapped where the manufacturer placed it, with the exception of small
insignificant amounts which may be driven from the mats by certain
adverse conditions such as overcharging, in some brands. (see Bob's
reply earlier) You can completely cut away the entire case of an RG
battery and with the plates totally open and exposed it will operate
normally. (assuming you keep it physically together and don't let the
exposed parts short against anything.)
>I'm getting some feedback that this is fine, but I'd love the scientific
>answer just to be safe. Once I make this decision it will be difficult to go back.
>
>
Under normal operating conditions ANY position is fine with NO effect
whatsoever on function, efficiency or life.
>Regards,
>Chad
>
>
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
See below:
There are extensive pictures and text regarding my electrical system at
http://www.berkut13.com/berkut32.htm for those interested in helping.
> What style of ammeter are you using? Do you have shunts in the b-leads to
> the alternators. If so, I would guess that something about the wire run
> between
> the shunt and the ACS2002 was not quite right.
The ACS2002 http://www.advanced-control-systems.com/ uses a hall effect loop
sensor. It is positioned inbetween the B-lead current limiters and master
relay.
Specifically: L-60 B-lead to 60amp current limiter AND L-20 B-lead to
40-amp current limiter, terminate to the hot pole of the starter relay, that
is #2 wire connected to the switched side of the master relay (exactly as
depicted on Z-12 diagram). The sensor is located on the #2 wire between the
starter and master relays.
> My thinking is that
> there might
> be a ground loop in the connections of the ACS2002 and the shunts.
Possible, but unlikely as all sensor leads go back to the DPU of the
monitor...no common or engine grounds.
> Does
> turning
> the alternator off immediately run the ammeter reading to zero, or does
> it take
> time for it to bleed down?
Not sure what the response time of the sensor is, but the readings come down
as quickly as they went up after alternator shutdown. Voltage drop is
immediate.
>Still assuming shunts, you could probably
> disconnect
> the sense connections on the shunts. Then, with the engine running you
> could use
> your handy DVM to take readings with the alternator off and on.
No shunt.
> Since your bus voltage remains stable, that suggests that the ammeter
> readings
> are bogus. If your alternator was really putting out as much juice as
> the ammeter
> indicates, your buss voltage would rise...
Yes, I totally agree. But, of course, I still want to appeal to the higher
powers and far more capable individuals like yourself!! Thank you all for
the responses thus far, and forth coming.
In the by-the-way column...the one 17ah battery was pretty beat-up by the
multiple blade starts. It finally gave up and could no longer turn the
engine over after several starting attempts. I resorted to using a battery
charger/booster temporarily during the initial start sequences to get the
engine firing. Not sure if this is even relevant info, but I thought I
would throw it in.
Thanks!
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
Bob,
I've got some measurements...at least some preliminary data. I ran through
B&C's troubleshooting guide for the LR3C-14, and I took some voltage
measurements, and here goes.
Actually, before I get into test results, I should describe how the system
is wired (more or less Figure Z-11):
- three bus system
- B&C L-40 alternator
- fusible link off main bus stud, wired to 5A "ALT FIELD" circuit breaker on
panel, wired to master/alt switch, wired to Pin 6.
- 2A fuse on main bus splits out (as per LR3C-14 installation instructions)
to both Pin 3 and the warning light, which goes to Pin 5.
Test results...first B&C's troubleshooting guide:
1. All switches OFF. Test for suitable ground point for tests.
Resistance from battery (-) to Pin 7: 0.3 ohms
Resistance from battery (-) to engine case: 0.4 ohms
(from here on, used battery (-) terminal as ground)
2. Battery master & alternator field switched ON.
Main bus voltage: 12.37v (battery had been on for a while)
Pin 3 voltage: 12.35v
(as per B&C should be within 0.2 of each other -- good)
3. Pin 6 voltage: 12.06v
(as per B&C should be within 0.5 volts of bus voltage -- good)
4. Pin 4 voltage: 10.81v
(as per B&C should be ~1.2v less than pin 6 -- good)
5. Field terminal voltage: 10.74v
(as per B&C should be within 0.5v of pin 4 -- good)
Switches OFF, Alternator field resistance: 0.001 ohms
6. Switches ON, alternator "B" lead: 12.37v
(as per B&C should be battery voltage -- good)
7. Check loose/broken alternator belt -- good.
Ok...now to some other measurements:
- Voltage drop from master bus stud to alternator field breaker (via
fuselink + wire): 0.117v
- Voltage drop across 5A alt field breaker: 0.120v
- Voltage drop across alternator field switch: 0.006v
NOTE: all of the above tests were performed with the engine stopped. The
only test I ran with the engine running was to confirm that the alternator
is operative -- main bus voltage rose from 13v to 14.2v when I switched the
alternator field on, and the battery voltage after shutdown had risen about
half a volt...so the alternator seems to be functioning and the battery is
getting charged.
This all seems normal to me. So I'm left with the assumption that the
LR3C-14 has an internal problem. Could just be a faulty low voltage warning
circuit? Could be something more sinister? Unless you guys come up with
other ideas, I'll call B&C in the morning.
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LR3C-14 always flashes
>
> > Can you give us voltage measurements taken from the power
> > input pins while the bus voltage is normal? If the power
> > input pins are all within a tenth or so volts of the bus,
> > then the LR3 has some problem internally. How is the LR3
> > grounded?
>
> You bet...will take those readings today when I re-recheck all the wiring.
>
> As per the instructions, pin 7 is grounded to the firewall forest of
ground
> tabs, and I went ahead and grounded the stud on the case all the way there
> as well for redundancy...despite the instructions saying the case ground
> wasn't required on an aluminum airframe installation.
>
> Will be back in a bit with some more data...
>
> Thanks,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
Hello Dan,
I am wondering if it is as simple as the low voltage warning threshold point
is just set too high. Perhaps a disk pot on the board has gotten nudged out
of spec. If it were mine I would be tempted to substitute the battery with a
variable DC powers supply and run the voltage up a bit higher to see if the
light goes normal.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
OK, problem solved. BAD BATTERY!! BAD!!
I took the Panasonic 17ah RG battery out, and temporarily hooked up a 26ah
battery - for the purpose of testing the bigger battery's ability to turn
the engine over. It did it without any fuss, and while the engine was
running, I went ahead and tried the alts. To my surprise...EVERYTHING
worked...I mean, exactly as anticipated. Voltage was slightly higher at
14.2 peak but steady, amps ran up to about 20 then backed down to 15, then
hovered around 8 with the primary alternator engaged!! I tested both
primary and secondary systems...both within perfect specs.
So, add me to the growing list of complaints against the battery
manufacturers quality control.
Further testing is required to fully determine if I need the additional
cranking power of a second 17ah battery. (no physical room for a single big
battery)
Thanks all! Dan, I hope that you come to a quick resolution for your issues
too!!
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles
> After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
> did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
> off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as
it
> should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
> slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
> climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same
thing
> happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
> alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
> alternator is engaged.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
> > Regards,
> > Chad
> > Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid
> battery
> > (even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze
> type plate
> > separator.
> >
> > John P. Marzluf
> > Columbus, Ohio
> > Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>Yes, but will it work as efficiently? In an RG battery, is there some air/gas
>space at the top and if so, will placing the battery on its side flood an
>unused portion with electrolyte while starving a side plate (now at the top)?
>
>I'm getting some feedback that this is fine, but I'd love the scientific
>answer just to be safe. Once I make this decision it will be difficult to
>go back.
check out details of RG battery construction on 'net. Electrolyte is
for the most part held in place between plates by capillary action/
surface tension of liquid by fine mesh Fiberglas separators. Many
portable equipment items are powered by sealed lead-acid batteries
and may be operated without regard to orientation. Gravity doesn't
affect performance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
>
>Hello Dan,
>
>I am wondering if it is as simple as the low voltage warning threshold point
>is just set too high. Perhaps a disk pot on the board has gotten nudged out
>of spec. If it were mine I would be tempted to substitute the battery with a
>variable DC powers supply and run the voltage up a bit higher to see if the
>light goes normal.
>
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
I believe the low volts set-point in this product is calibrated
with fixed resistors . . . no adjustment to get out of whack. However,
the regulator will function mostly normally even when the lv sense
lead is unhooked (a fail safe feature added some years ago). What's
the voltage on terminal 3 of the LR-3 with the engine running and
alternator turned on?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery contact screws |
>
>
>Bob, you recommended 4 AWG for the cranking circuit. I'm seriously
>considering
>a front-battery setup in my pusher which makes for a lengthy run to the
>engine. Should I go with 2 AWG, or all the way down to 0? The batteries would
>be at around FS4 and the engine is at around FS140, and add a few feet to get
>from centerline to the electrical conduit, which is along the outside edge of
>the fuse.
>
>I seem to recall you having some rule of thumb for power dissipated by the
>wiring to the starter during cranking, but can't seem to find it.
If the battery, starter and alternator are all within a few feet of
each other, 4AWG will generally suffice for fat wires. If battery is
behind seats in a tractor or in the nose of a pusher, then 2AWG wires
are recommended for the fat wires that carry cranking currents . . .
I'd stay with 4AWG battery jumpers for ease of maintenance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
> I believe the low volts set-point in this product is calibrated
> with fixed resistors . . . no adjustment to get out of whack. However,
> the regulator will function mostly normally even when the lv sense
> lead is unhooked (a fail safe feature added some years ago). What's
> the voltage on terminal 3 of the LR-3 with the engine running and
> alternator turned on?
I don't know that specific value, but last night when running the engine,
alternator on, main bus voltage was 14.2 volts...I have to assume that
terminal 3 would have the same voltage value -- or maybe 0.25 volts less due
to drops across the fuselink and circuit breaker in the circuit, so say 14
volts nominally?
If absolutely necessary to know that measurement, I guess I can hook it up
and try it. Have I mentioned how much I hate screws & ring terminals?! I
wish the LR3C-14 came with fast-on tabs! 8-)
Somebody posted a source a while ago for fast-on tab conversion tab thingies
for ring terminals...anybody remember that source?
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad Robinson <crobinson(at)rfgonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>True enough. I started out by simply suggesting a smaller battery than the
>>original poster. It was Bob that suggested even a capacitor could do the
>>trick. If it can be sized properly, the capacitor is definitely the LIGHTEST
>>option. My real vote is for the diode to replace the switch, since I believe
>>it will produce a much more reliable (and lower pilot workload) solution.
>>
>>There is admittedly some advantage in having a battery since it would provide
>>some power redundancy to this critical device. But I prefer Bob's
>>dual-battery
>>or dual-alternator layouts for that, since if I have a power failure I
>>certainly care about more than just the ignition system. For example, I sort
>>of might like to still have one radio available while I am trying to land as
>>quickly as possible... =)
>
>
> Why quickly as possible? Is your load analysis so dismal that
> you cannot comfortably continue until fuel is exhausted?
I have this irritating curiosity thing and I'd want to know what's going on.
Can't change who you are. =) If I'm 150 miles from an ideal airport for some
reason I'm not going to put it down in a field, but if there's some place
convenient to land I don't see any reason to wait. I'm never in THAT much of a
rush, and I'll be carrying at least a basic set of tools to do some initial
diagnosis with.
-Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery contact screws |
| From: | John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
> If the battery, starter and alternator are all within a few feet of
> each other, 4AWG will generally suffice for fat wires. If battery is
> behind seats in a tractor or in the nose of a pusher, then 2AWG wires
> are recommended for the fat wires that carry cranking currents . . .
> I'd stay with 4AWG battery jumpers for ease of maintenance.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob -
You have used this terminology before: "Battery jumpers...". I am still
confused about what you mean. In the context above, it would seem that the
wire from the battery to the contactor must be a #2 - if the wire from the
contactor to the starter is "carrying starter current". If the battery
provides the starting current, then there ought to be # 2 from the
battery, to the battery contactor-to the starter contactor-to the starter.
This is what we have on our Z-14 where the batteries/battery contactors
are about 11 feet from the firewall; where the starter contactor is
installed.
The only other lead from the batteries, in our case, is the one to the
battery bus itself. That is a # 10.
Does this make sense? Out of all these wires, what is the "battery jumper"?
Thanks for your help.
Sincerely,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cory Emberson" <bootless(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Santa Maria CA Fly-In (April 30-May 2) |
Hello everyone!
With Matt Dralle's blessing (thank you, Matt!), I'm pleased to post this announcement
for a terrific aviation fly-in weekend. SMXgig (in Santa Maria, CA) has
become the year's largest face-to-face get-together of electronically networked
aviators. We hope you'll plan to attend because we expect this year's gig to
be the best ever.
People come from all over the country (and sometimes overseas) to attend, and most of the sessions qualify for FAA Wings cards. The dates are 4/30-5/2/04 (Friday-Sunday) - it's a lot of fun, and a great chance for pilots from all over to mingle and share aviation stories, ideas, etc. The announcement below contains most of the crucial information, and you can get the rest from the website (www.smxgig.org). If you have any questions at all, just let me know, and thanks!
~~Cory Emberson
KHWD
>>> NOTICE TO AIRMEN! <<<
Announcing the Sixteenth Annual SMXgig
to be held on April 30 - May 2, 2004
at the Radisson on the Santa Maria (CA) Airport (aka SMX)
www.smxgig.org
SMXgig will be April 30 - May 2, 2004, at the Santa Maria Radisson. This year,
our featured speaker after Friday night's dinner will be Rod Machado!
"MACH 2 WITH MACHADO" is the byline Rod Machado has earned for his rapid fire delivery
at his lively safety seminars and keynote speeches. His programs are information-packed,
energetic, and humorous. He has spoken in all fifty of the
United States and in Europe sharing his fresh approach to aviation education.
If you can make it, please do. It's going to be pretty special. More information and the announcement/ registration info is available at www.smxgig.org You may also contact me by email at: cory(at)smxgig.org.
All technical sessions will be held in the Enterprise Ballroom at the SMX Radisson.
Each session will last about an hour. We schedule four tech sessions on Saturday
morning, and four on Sunday morning. Most of the speakers are set (I'm
still firming up a couple of slots - I'm working on a session about Experimentals):
MIKE BUSCH - The Art and Science of Troubleshooting
Your A frequently, that person is you. That's particularly true of problems that
occur only in-flight and/or are intermittent. This session offers methodology
for troubleshooting aimed at aircraft owners who aren't A&Ps.
ED WILLIAMS - GPS - How It Works, and How to Work It
Ed is a nuclear physicist working at Lawrence Livermore Labs. Ed does a
remarkable job of making physics phun!
BRENT BLUE, M.D. - Pilot Medicals: How to Avoid Problems with the FAA
Brent is an AME Advocate, who specializes in helping the tough cases renew their
medicals. He's a former member of EAA's medical advisory committee.
DOUG RITTER - Equipping Yourself To Survive - Personal Survival Gear for Pilots
Doug is a survival evangelist, personally driven to help pilots live through whatever comes next. www.equipped.org
PAUL MILLNER - The Future of Avgas
Paul works with ChevronTexaco, and is right in the middle of the industry developments
regarding our fuel of choice.
MARY DUFFY & UWE LEMKE - Flying in Europe
Mary and Uwe are a Scot and a German who live in the San Francisco Bay Area, but
return "home" often.
As always, each qualifying session will get you a WINGS Safety Session card.
Our Saturday evening event should be a delicious one! At 5:45 p.m., the BFUB (Big Fat Ugly Bus) will arrive at the Santa Maria Radisson to bring us to the Far Western Tavern for dinner in beautiful Guadalupe (www.farwesterntavern.com).
March 17, 2004 - March 28, 2004
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-da