AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-dj

July 26, 2004 - August 14, 2004



      
      Of course it is best to get the source and compile it yourself.
      Linux, and other Unix's it pretty much compiles right out of the box.
      http://www.gnome.org/gnome-office/dia.shtml
      
      wrote:
      
      > 
      >
      > Dave wrote:
      >>
      >> Chad, This sounds interesting but I can only find a "pay for 
      >> subscription"
      >> link for Visio 2000-2003. Is there a free program anywhere? I've looked 
      >> at
      >> www.downloads.com but there's so many to choose from. A few have a free
      >> try, $300 to buy download but that would be annoying. Any info?
      >
      > Visio is indeed a commercial product currently sold by Microsoft. It's 
      > one of
      > their better products, actually - they didn't write it, they purchased 
      > it from
      > the original makers (Visio the company) because it was the best 
      > flowcharting
      > product on the market and they wanted in.
      >
      > There is a 30-day evaluation for the product at:
      > http://office.microsoft.com/home/office.aspx?assetid=FX01085798
      > (click Trial Version).
      >
      > Visio Standard costs $200. You can get older versions on eBay for less 
      > than
      > half that (I saw some quotes as low as $60) but be sure you're buying a
      > legitimate version. Standard Edition is almost certainly all you need.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Chad
      >
      >
      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 07/20/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/19/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 07/21/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 07/23/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/22/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 07/24/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 07/25/04
Date: Jul 26, 2004
I will be out of touch until July 27. Leave a message and I will reply later. Thanks, Eric M. Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> ?
Subject: Re: Possible OV condition with Z 16 diagram
? ? > >Hi Bob and all, > >The completion of our four seater is not far now, and the time will come for >the first start up. >We have a Rotax 914 wired as per fig Z 16 with dual battery. Some fellow >builders have already flown their own projects, and have been aware of a >possible snag with the OV wiring and the Rotax regulator as well as the >Schicke GR4 regulator. They have been experiencing alarming OV conditions on >shutdown. How do they know there has been an OV condition? >Scenario : >According to fig Z 16 the regulator "sense" wire (C wire) is connected to >the bus through the S700-2-10 master switch. When one opens the master or >the OV module fires, the sense wire sees zero volt. >The regulator then throws the full alternator output at the capacitor >through the wires B and R. The capacitor is rated for 25 volts and could >suffer from the 60-100 volts. Have they measured a 60-volt plus event? >The scenario is quite similar with the Schicke regulator. Are they turning the switch off during high engine rpm operation? Those PM alternators don't put out much at idle and the alternator switch not normally operated at high rpms. This is a situation similar to that which precipitated the great load-dump investigation a few months ago. If switches are operated like you would 99.99% of the time preflighting or parking the airplane, there is little or no risk of the even happening. >To prevent this condition one could connect the sense wire (C wire) directly >to the capacitor, and not to the master switch. Thus the regulator always >sees a load and no ill effect is produced when the master is opened. > >What is your opinion about this variation on the Z 16 theme ? Doable, not >doable ? Give it a try. I don't think there's any risk to the hardware but given that perhaps a hundred plus airplane are flying with Figure Z-16 wiring, I'm interested in figuring out the details of the observed event and deducing why it took so long to surface. In conversations with Rotax ten years ago I was told that opening the "C" lead shuts the alternator OFF. Precipitation of a high voltage event was not mentioned. We need to explore this. Perhaps something about your regulator is different than the original regulators supplied with the Rotax. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Strobe lamp wiring question
Date: Jul 27, 2004
Bob & Listers, What is your opinion of the shielded strobe lamp to power supply wire which was supplied with my Nova strobe system? This shielded 3 lead wire harness is listed as 60 degree Centigrade (140 F) rated wire. The number E129931 is imprinted on the outer casing. Is this wire's temp rating adequate for use in hot climates? Is there any advantage to replacing this wire with MIL 27500 wire? (I have both) Is there any practical advantage with regards to shielding, of one of these wire types as opposed to the other? Charlie Kuss RV-8A cockpit wiring & systems Boca Raton, Fl. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2004
From: Jim and Lucy <jpollard(at)mnsi.net>
Subject: handheld and intercom
Looking through the installation manual for a NAT intercom,It shows the push to talk switch grounds one of the pins on the intercom which grounds one of the pins on the radio to put it into the transmit mode. If I use a handheld radio in place of a panel mount radio, do these handhelds work the same?? Is the airframe ground the same as the handheld ground to activate the transmitter? If the handheld was operating off internal batteries I don't see how it could be. I have not picked out a handheld radio yet but that is the way I would like to go. thanks Jim Pollard ch601hds wireing and plumbing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2004
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: handheld and intercom
Jim and Lucy wrote: > Looking through the installation manual for a NAT > intercom,It shows the push to talk switch grounds > one of the pins on the intercom which grounds > one of the pins on the radio to put it into > the transmit mode. > If I use a handheld radio in > place of a panel mount radio, do these handhelds > work the same?? Some use a separate PTT line to key the transmitter but many use the current through the mic audio line (the line being used to power the microphone's amplifier) to key the transmitter. In the former case you need to do nothing but hook up the PTT line from the intercom. In the latter you will need to make an adapter with a resistor and a capacitor but that is an inexpensive and easy task. How the handheld radio keys its transmitter may turn out to be one of your selection criteria. OTOH, I think I would get a panel-mount radio. Look for a used Apollo SL-60 GPS/comm or a GX-65 with the built-in moving map display. Both have been discontinued by Apollo since they were acquired by Garmin but both are outstanding GPS/comm units with the best comm radio in the industry (my opinion -- YMMV). Evidently they are still popular as the shops are still selling them and the prices haven't dropped too much. I have the SL-60 and SL-30 in my Aztec. I have the GX-60 in my Comanche. I had the SL-60 in the CJ6A I sold. I plan to put an SL-30 in The Project (my CJ6A restoration project) to complement the Blue Mountain EFIS. I guess you could say I found their radios to be quite to my liking. The ability of the single comm radio to monitor the standby frequency while still operating on the active frequency is a boon. With a single comm you can listen to the ATIS or AWOS while still communicating with ATC. The SL-30 nav/comm is so fantastic that it will do the job of two normal nav/coms (like dual KX-155s) in a single 1.3" high package. Unfortunately it has become so popular that its price is pretty high. Still, if you compare it in price and size to a pair of standard nav/coms, it seems pretty reasonable. (No, I don't work for Garmin/IImorrow/UPSAT. I just happen to think that they got the engineering right in their radios and I am quite saddened to see that Garmin is phasing out many of the aforementioned radios since they acquired the Apollo line.) -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Strobe lamp wiring question
> >Bob & Listers, > What is your opinion of the shielded strobe lamp to power supply wire > which was supplied with my Nova strobe system? This shielded 3 lead wire > harness is listed as 60 degree Centigrade (140 F) rated wire. The number > E129931 is imprinted on the outer casing. Is this wire's temp rating > adequate for use in hot climates? Is there any advantage to replacing > this wire with MIL 27500 wire? (I have both) Is there any practical > advantage with regards to shielding, of one of these wire types as > opposed to the other? >Charlie Kuss >RV-8A cockpit wiring & systems >Boca Raton, Fl. While the FAA would probably roll their eyes back and swoon about this wire in a NEW application for TSO or STC . . . this has been the wire of choice since the 1960's when the PVC insulated, Beldfoil shielded wire was the best-we-know-how-to-do at the time. One one hand, you might say that here's yet another example of antique certification and grandfathering standing in the way of "progress". Given that this system has been installed in tens of thousands of airplanes for over 40 years and offered trouble-free service, it seems a bit of wasted effort and poor return on investment to "upgrade" the installation either by regulatory or worry-wart mandate. If you have whippier wire and want to "upgrade", I can't tell you with confidence that you've done a better thing than to simply install the kit that comes with the strobe. When it comes to shielding effectiveness, it's hard to beat the 100% coverage offered by the Beldfoil product . . . problem is that for most installations, strobe wires don't get bundled with wires tied to potential victim systems. Yeah, the PVC that we so highly prized 50 years ago is now a pariah in the eyes of those-who-know-more-about-airplanes-than-we-do. So we could debate the various pro/con artifacts of the old/new installation ad-nauseam without adding much to the pool of useful, simple-ideas. How's that for definitive advice? If it were my airplane, I'd put the factory supplied kit in and save the "new" wire for other tasks. Some wild-eyed ol' gray-beard in Wichita was once heard to opine, "Sometimes the best way to drive a nail is with a hammer." A hammer has low parts count and no batteries to run down. They have a successful track record that goes back thousands of years. Unlike nail guns, they're great multi- tasking tools. Best yet, when you're too tired to drive the nail straight, it's your signal to take a break. Really great tools them hammers. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: single ground question
> >I think that I understand that a single ground for the avionics and >electrical instruments is best. > >Does the cabin and instrument lighting need the signel ground also? > >I remember a comment by Bob that it would be best to run the bus avionics >directly to the battery, as a sort of electronic shock >absorber. Assuming that >it is impossible to run the positive bus lead directly to the battery, would >there be any point in running just the negative lead directly to the >battery? I think my ai will sign this off as a minor mod, since "its >only the >ground".... I didn't say anything like that. Chapter 5 of the 'Connection can be downloaded here: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch5-9.pdf . . . this chapter speaks to grounding issues. There are ground systems suggested in Figure Z-15 of Appendix Z which can also be downloaded at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf I'll suggest you review these documents and come back to the list if there are any clarification or additional information is needed. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2004
From: Steve Maher <lilabner_45(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: handheld and intercom
Some handhelds do, some don't. I had a JRC JHP-520 handheld navcomm, and found that the owner's manual stated in big black letters, DO NOT GROUND THE PTT LINE TO TRANSMIT. In that radio, it says you have to connect the PTT line to another line on the plug, to transmit. I now have a Vertex (formerly Yaesu) VXA-210 handheld navcomm. Its manual doesn't say much about what to do with the PTT line, so I called their service department and talked to one of their techs who seemed quite knowledgeable. He checked the schematics and told me that grounding the PTT line to transmit, is definitely the correct way to go. Whatever radio you're contemplating, if I were you I'd call the company first and ask them about the PTT line. Personally I like the ground-it types, since they conform to what most intercoms do. Steve Maher San Diego, CA --- Jim and Lucy wrote: > > > Looking through the installation manual for a NAT > intercom,It shows the push to talk switch grounds > one of the pins on the intercom which grounds > one of the pins on the radio to put it into > the transmit mode. > If I use a handheld radio in > place of a panel mount radio, do these handhelds > work the same?? Is the airframe ground the same > as the handheld ground to activate the transmitter? > If the handheld was operating off internal batteries > I don't see how it could be. > I have not picked out a handheld radio yet but that > is the way I would like to go. > > > thanks > > > Jim Pollard > ch601hds > wireing and plumbing > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm > > > > > > __________________________________ http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Koyich" <Ron(at)Koyich.com>
Subject: Shadin Digidata and JPI fuel flow interface
Date: Jul 29, 2004
Has anyone on the list constructed a 'Y' cable to pull off the fuel flow transducer pulses from the Shadin DigiData to drive fuel flow on a JPI EDM-760? It looks to me the easiest place to do this would be at the back of the Shadin indicator. Their diagram suggests running additional wires all the way out to the transducers at the engines. Anyone looked at the signals at the back of the Shadin? Perhaps the pulses there aren't sharp enough for the JPI. Perhaps they are.... Best - Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Down the yellow brick road . . .
Dee and I are launching up I35 in a few minutes headed for Oshkosh. Hope we can see many of you there. I'll be doing a forum in then tents at 2:30 on Saturday. Will be "off line" with the list until next Wednesday. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Reid" <AllTheGoodUseridsAreGone(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Grounding hinges in composite aircraft
Date: Jul 29, 2004
Speaking of grounding... I've seen some recommendations that in composite aircraft, each of the metal hinges (for elevator, rudder, ailerons, and flaps) be connected to a ground point. Presumably this is to avoid static charge buildup. Or perhaps for some measure of lightning protection? (In a carbon-fiber aircraft, you can bet that I'll not be anywhere near the stuff!) Well, how important is this hinge grounding, really? You see, I neglected to do so for my empennage, and now that it's all closed out, it would be very difficult to get ground wires back there. My two COM, NAV, and ELT antennas are copper-foil inside the fiberglass VS and HS respectively. Will I have static problems with communications? Will traditional static wicks suffice to bleed that off? (The elevator and rudder skins are carbon-fiber.) My wings aren't closed out yet, so I can easily run ground wires to the aileron hinges. I have slotted flaps, with large phenolic pivot points; no metal there except for the pivot bolts. The VS and HS are fiberglass (to allow for the antennae inside), but the rest of the plane is all carbon-fiber, which I know conducts electricity to some extent.** Need I run a ground to the carbon-fiber flap and/or aileron skins too? Thanks, Greg ** I was working on mounting my pitot tube on the underside of the wings one day, and kept feeling a "tickle" in my forearm, that I feared was the start of an allergic reaction to the epoxy -- until I finally realized that it was a mild electric shock! I had an oooold jigsaw resting in one of the wing fuel bays, plugged in (apparently backwards), and its metal case was leaking 120V to the inside fuel bay skin (haven't yet Jeffco'd the bays), electrifying the entire carbon skin. The jigsaw went into the trash that day. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc(at)qconline.com>
Subject: Alternatives to the TP45
Date: Jul 30, 2004
Hi guys, Most of you are probably at Oshkosh, Mr Messinger's reference to the TP45 ignition module for the Subaru distributor has referenced alternatives. I'd like to know if there's any difference between the TP45 control module by Echlin and the alternatives by SMP- LX301, BWD- CBE4, Niehoff- DR400, Filko- DR300, Wells- DR100, KEM- E200 or the GP version EL102. These all are a 4-pin GM control module listed alternative, but the price goes from $10.48 each to $38.00 each. Are they all equal? I want to build up a dual dizzy setup per Paul Messinger's article but wondered about this. Larry McFarland - 601HDS powered by Subaru ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the TP45
Date: Jul 31, 2004
There is a BIG difference in the Quality of the different brands of modules. Reiner, Founder of Stratus had problems with the low cost brands failing. Things like the temperature rating of the components do vary. Some manufacturers have different product lines with varing quality levels. Standard has 3 lines of essentially the same part in some products. Not only different prices but internally different quality and or design. The manufacturers listed in my manual have been verified at the time to be of hi quality but things do change over time. For example the pickup suggested as best has been redesigned. Still good. Just back from OSH. Got there early to help setup (workshop forums) and left early to get good weather back to west coast. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc(at)qconline.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternatives to the TP45 > > Hi guys, > Most of you are probably at Oshkosh, > Mr Messinger's reference to the TP45 ignition module for the Subaru distributor > has referenced alternatives. I'd like to know if there's any difference between > the TP45 control module by Echlin and the alternatives > by SMP- LX301, BWD- CBE4, Niehoff- DR400, Filko- DR300, Wells- DR100, KEM- E200 > or the GP version EL102. These all are a 4-pin GM control module listed > alternative, but the price goes from $10.48 each to $38.00 each. > Are they all equal? > > I want to build up a dual dizzy setup per Paul Messinger's article but wondered > about this. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS powered by Subaru > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bryan Flood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Trim switch wiring
Date: Aug 02, 2004
Could anyone share a diagram for wiring two trim switches together for a single RC Allen servo (Pilot / Co-Pilot)? To make things fun, I was also hoping to use a dual switch "fail safe" system like the big boys to prevent a run away trim in case of a switch failure. any one up for that challange? Thanks, Bryan Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: Trim switch wiring
Date: Aug 02, 2004
Try, http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Pilot_Priority_B.pdf Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Flood Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim switch wiring Could anyone share a diagram for wiring two trim switches together for a single RC Allen servo (Pilot / Co-Pilot)? To make things fun, I was also hoping to use a dual switch "fail safe" system like the big boys to prevent a run away trim in case of a switch failure. any one up for that challange? Thanks, Bryan Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2004
From: "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: King CDI
I have a King CDI localizer head, I think it may be a KI-201 It was the head for a kx 170a, replaced the radio with a michel MX170 , which seems to be a pretty good radio, despite a few idiosyncracies. Last week I was shooting an ILS (this is my back up head, the main GS head seems to be working, ) and I noticed that the Localizer needle was not behaving like the one on Nav1 KX170b, with GS. It just stays centered, and I don't fly that good an approach! I have tried these steps to trouble shoot. 1. disconnected the head, and cleaned the contacts with Caig De-oxit 2 Removed the radio, and cleaned the tray connectors with De-oxit as well. 3I took the kx 170 b and the MX 170 units out, and switched them. The Michel seems to drive the Nav 1 head just fine, the KX 170b will not affect the localizer needle whatsoever on the #2 CDI, so I am assuming the radios are functional, and the CDI is busted. Both radios will tune and identify the ILS frequency, in either position of the trays. The reason I bought the Michel, is that it fits right into a King tray. This saved much Moola at the avionics shop! It seems to me the localizer CDI head is pooched, It does not show a "to" flag. When you turn on the radio that is hooked to it (either the kX or the mx) the needle jumps to the left a couple of dots, then returns to center. Wiggling the tray or the head connector seems to have no effect. Can anyone suggest the next thing to do? take it out and send it to a shop? I really can't see putting a lot of cash into a head that is vintage '72 low end CDI head. I think a CDI is a bunch of money, and I use my Garmin 295 for most of the heavy duty navigation anyway. This is in my Super Viking, but I'm not opposed to working on it myself..too numb to be scared I guess! Thanks, David Leonard I ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2004
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: King CDI
David A. Leonard wrote: > >I have a King CDI localizer head, I think it may be a KI-201 It was the >head for a kx 170a, replaced the radio with a michel MX170 , which seems to >be a pretty good radio, despite a few idiosyncracies. Last week I was >shooting an ILS (this is my back up head, the main GS head seems to be >working, ) and I noticed that the Localizer needle was not behaving like >the one on Nav1 KX170b, with GS. It just stays centered, and I don't fly >that good an approach! > >I have tried these steps to trouble shoot. >1. disconnected the head, and cleaned the contacts with Caig De-oxit >2 Removed the radio, and cleaned the tray connectors with De-oxit as well. > >3I took the kx 170 b and the MX 170 units out, and switched them. The >Michel seems to drive the Nav 1 head just fine, the KX 170b will not >affect the localizer needle whatsoever on the #2 CDI, so I am assuming the >radios are functional, and the CDI is busted. > >Both radios will tune and identify the ILS frequency, in either position of >the trays. > >The reason I bought the Michel, is that it fits right into a King >tray. This saved much Moola at the avionics shop! > >It seems to me the localizer CDI head is pooched, It does not show a "to" >flag. > >When you turn on the radio that is hooked to it (either the kX or the mx) >the needle jumps to the left a couple of dots, then returns to >center. Wiggling the tray or the head connector seems to have no effect. > > >Can anyone suggest the next thing to do? take it out and send it to a shop? > >I really can't see putting a lot of cash into a head that is vintage '72 >low end CDI head. I think a CDI is a bunch of money, and I use my Garmin >295 for most of the heavy duty navigation anyway. > >This is in my Super Viking, but I'm not opposed to working on it >myself..too numb to be scared I guess! > >Thanks, David Leonard > If the 2 heads are plug-compatible, you could swap the heads in the panel to be sure the wiring between the radio tray & head connector is ok. Assuming the known-good head responds properly in the 'bad' position, then it's probably time for repair/replace. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gerry Clabots" <gclabots(at)execpc.com>
Subject: B&C LR3 voltage regulator
Date: Aug 03, 2004
I am wiring my LR3 voltage regulator and would like to know the disadvantage of jumpering 3 to 6 instead of fusing 3 seperately? I am starting to run short of fuse positions and if there is no big disadvantage i would Jumper 3 to 6. Gerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2004
From: Rick Girard <fly.ez(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Plasma Ignition availability
Hi all, I have a Plasma Ignition System available for sale. The unit has 10 hours Total Time. System includes coils, harness, plugs, plug adapters, and hall effect module. Please call 425 531 2651 for further details. Reason for sale: I am currently undertaking a weight reduction effort on my new (and heavy) IO-360 powered Long EZ. The aircraft was set up for an America to Australia Pacific crossing and had a second alternator and second battery as backup for dual electronic ignition. I have decided to remove the weight and add a magneto.. Cheers, Wayne Blackler IO-360 Long EZ Seattle, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Squidging
Date: Aug 04, 2004
Cheers, In view of the challenges to Europa's future wellbeing, I feel the terrible urge to give. The title refers to that regretable need to fill the 'voids' (an unnecessary term) in a band of adhesive having irregular contact. Having just accomplished this feat - not without its own challenges - I have gleaned a summary for those wary few who may benefit from another's misfortune. Successful squidging comes from creating the correct consistency of adhesive such that, too thin it runs elsewhere (usually on new shirt) or spurts sideways onto a treasured curio or too thick, won't penetrate to the necessary depths to fulfill the need. Thus only personal experience can produce the known thickness of mix (q.v: thixatropic). However when it comes to tools, it's another thing. After an army of investigators have completed their reports I can safely recommend articles of the vital sort. Anything 1/16inch or over in ID will be found at either the local medical arts surgery store for a syringeof 60cc(ml) capacity with a 'catheter tip' for less than $3 NA. These usually have a tip about 1/4inch OD and 1/16 ID which can be whittled down on opposing sides to from a wedge where penetration of 1/16 or more is needed. Another device highly recommended is a 'metal teat cannula' (don't ask) which normally presents itself at the nearby farm implement stores. Its quality seems to lean toward being able to attach any moderate size of tubing tip to achieve the depths required. I covered over a quartet of dictionaries/thesauri to discover what a 'dongle' is, but offer the follwoing for those who must invent such things - Kormdiddle, feltpugue, dolpit and pherb. Ever onward, Ferg A064 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Plasma Ignition availability
> >Hi all, > >I have a Plasma Ignition System available for sale. The unit has 10 >hours Total Time. System includes coils, harness, plugs, plug adapters, >and hall effect module. Please call 425 531 2651 for further details. > >Reason for sale: I am currently undertaking a weight reduction effort on >my new (and heavy) IO-360 powered Long EZ. The aircraft was set up for >an America to Australia Pacific crossing and had a second alternator and >second battery as backup for dual electronic ignition. I have decided to >remove the weight and add a magneto.. Why does a dual alternator system need dual batteries . . . and why would a dual alternator system heavier? Starting with a modern, belt driven alternator you have demonstrated reliability on the order of 3 to 10x better than certified junk for the main alternator. Adding a second engine driven power source in the form of an SD-8 replaces more pounds of vacuum system than the weight of the alternator installation and puts a huge multiplier on the probability of having engine driven power for duration of flight. If you have two engine driven power sources, you don't need a high capacity battery. Consider a 12.5 lb, 12 a.h. cranker from Concord or others. For an over-the-pond crossing, I'd think you'd WANT the fuel savings offered by electronic ignition even if you back it up with a magneto for the second ignition. I'm completely mystified as to how the optimum system configuration for this mission is 'heavier' than the single alt, dual mag, vacuum system installation. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C LR3 voltage regulator
> >I am wiring my LR3 voltage regulator and would like to know the >disadvantage of jumpering 3 to 6 instead of fusing 3 seperately? >I am starting to run short of fuse positions and if there is no big >disadvantage i would Jumper 3 to 6. >Gerry Please wire per the instructions. The separate power leads provide isolation between field supply current and regulator sense connections. Proper, stable operation of the LR-3 depends on installation as shown. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: 24v battery interconnect
Date: Aug 04, 2004
Hi Bob, Thanks again for your little talk at our builders banquette at OSH. I have a question I neglected to ask. I plan on using two 12v RG batteries in my 24v system. I'd like to mount them on the engine side of the firewall. In order to do that they must be mounted on separate sides due to space concerns. The question is, what's the maximum distance I can have between the 2 interconnected batteries? Bruce www.glasair.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Zangger" <zangger(at)cox.net>
Subject: 24v battery interconnect
Date: Aug 04, 2004
Remove me from your list IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 24v battery interconnect Hi Bob, Thanks again for your little talk at our builders banquette at OSH. I have a question I neglected to ask. I plan on using two 12v RG batteries in my 24v system. I'd like to mount them on the engine side of the firewall. In order to do that they must be mounted on separate sides due to space concerns. The question is, what's the maximum distance I can have between the 2 interconnected batteries? Bruce www.glasair.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
Subject: Retail source for KILOVAC CAP200 low holdin battery
contactor
Date: Aug 04, 2004
Hi all, I installed one of these in my Europa and I can't remember where I purchased it from. Its made by Tyco. I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me the retail source for them. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: david caswell <davidbcaswell(at)yahoo.com>
I'm in process of wiring panel and am trying to find out the preferred method of wiring the engine instruments hot (I) side. Do you just wire them in series, or do you run all of the leads to a " block" somewhere that is energized from a faston terminal ("engine instruments") on the fused e-buss? I'm running all of the grounds to the firewall grounding block. Is there a non grounded "block" that would be appropriate for this use? Any input would be appreciated. Thank you, David ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: Wallace Enga <wenga(at)svtv.com> holdin battery contactor
Subject: Re: Retail source for KILOVAC CAP200 low
holdin battery contactor contactor Hi Paul http://www.onlinecomponents.com/default.htm Search for : Kilovac EV200 AAANA Shows 347 Quantity On Hand Wally > > >Hi all, > >I installed one of these in my Europa and I can't remember where I >purchased it from. Its made by Tyco. I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell >me the retail source for them. > >Paul > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gaylen Lerohl" <lerohl@rea-alp.com>
Subject: Re:
Date: Aug 04, 2004
David: Check the wiring instructions for your gauges and senders. They may have some guidance for you. If not, my choice is to power the buss from the battery contactor, then run +12v in series to each of the instruments. Saves lots of wire. I don't think there is any need for a dedicated "block". If you want to run a separate wire to each instrument you could use a terminal strip. http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page99.html IMHO though, it is just added expense and complexity. The current draw is low, on my RV 8 the engine instruments and fuel gauges draw less than one amp so you can use a small wire. Regards, Gaylen Terminaltown ----- Original Message ----- From: "david caswell" <davidbcaswell(at)yahoo.com> > > I'm in process of wiring panel and am trying to find out the preferred method of wiring the engine instruments hot (I) side. Do you just wire them in series, or do you run all of the leads to a " block" somewhere that is energized from a faston terminal ("engine instruments") on the fused e-buss? I'm running all of the grounds to the firewall grounding block. Is there a non grounded "block" that would be appropriate for this use? Any input would be appreciated. > > Thank you, > > David > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: 24v battery interconnect
> >Hi Bob, > >Thanks again for your little talk at our builders banquette at OSH. I >have a question I neglected to ask. I plan on using two 12v RG batteries >in my 24v system. I'd like to mount them on the engine side of the >firewall. In order to do that they must be mounted on separate sides due >to space concerns. The question is, what's the maximum distance I can >have between the 2 interconnected batteries? No practical limit on this. Obviously, there's a "unprotected" fat wire that runs between the batteries . . . but it's out in the open on a flat surface and easily inspected for signs of compromise. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: daisy chaining power leads
> > >I'm in process of wiring panel and am trying to find out the preferred >method of wiring the engine instruments hot (I) side. Do you just wire >them in series, or do you run all of the leads to a " block" somewhere >that is energized from a faston terminal ("engine instruments") on the >fused e-buss? I'm running all of the grounds to the firewall grounding >block. Is there a non grounded "block" that would be appropriate for this >use? Any input would be appreciated. I presume you're talking about power (+14V) leads. The easiest and one very acceptable way is to "daisy chain" the leads together with butt splices. I presume we're talking about 4-6 instruments. Two blue butt splices would bring that many 22AWG wires together into a single feeder from the fuse block. It's also quite acceptable to simply solder wires together and cover with heatshrink. There are plenty of $high$ products for wire splicing that depend on the soldered joint for mechanical and electrical integrity with heat-shrunk insulation. See: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1105.pdf and http://raychem.com/US/datasheets/REVISED32004/Sec_8/8-006_8-011_SolderSleeve.pdf Obviously, one can simply twist, solder and heatshrink cover a splice to obtain equivalent integrity. It's more a matter of your personal sense of craftsmanship. I work toward minimal parts count and compact results that tie nicely into a wire bundle. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
Subject: Lighting strike
Date: Aug 04, 2004
HI all, At the prompting of Eric Jones I thought I would share my experience yesterday of a lighting strike. I published a similar note on the Europa forum. For those unfamiliar it is composite construction. I departed yesterday from KUES up to Canada. About 90 minutes into the trip I took a lightning hit. The weather was forecasted VFR clear, however about 70 minutes into the trip I began to suspect all was "not as advertised". I noticed a cloud about 15 miles of my port side this looked ominous so I diverted away from it. I was about to call flight service when suddenly I saw a bright flash on the tip off my starboard wing. The starboard side was clear blue sky and the port side was at least 10~15 miles from any clouds. No obvious CB's were visible, however at 9000' it can be difficult to tell. The main contactor dropped off line so things went pretty quite until I kicked in the "E Buss" circuit. (Thanks Bob!!) Damage is as follows: - The paint is blistered on the starboard wing tip and the port side is only blackened. - The wing tip lights (Eric's design) are destroyed with some of the screws melted. - My Narco 122 VOR/LOC/GS is destroyed - Wing leveler is destroyed - Electronic fuel gauge. This is a microprocessor based device. - Main battery contactor (Kilovac EV200 AAANA) , which has an electronic power conservation circuit. - Manifold pressure sensing input to the EIS engine monitor. The Apollo GX 60 GPS/NAV/Com and transponder survived along with the EIS and electronic propeller controller. Internal inspection of the wing tips revealed no sign of burning and nothing was evident when I removed the instrument panel, or rear bulk heads. There appears to be no structural damage to the aircraft or welding of the control elements. It appeared that the lighting entered the starboard wing tip, traveled along the common ground between the LED wing tip lights and exited the port wing tip. Lessons learned. Well its hard to say. I called for a standard briefing 90 minutes before take off and was told "clear VFR, a nice afternoon to go flying". I called Flight Service an hour after the event and they told me that the convective activity that subsequently moved through was completely unexpected. I normally always file IFR, I think if I had done so this time I might have been warned. I also think that I should have acted sooner on my hunch, a call 10 minutes sooner might have saved me a whole bunch of grief. Given that the conduction path was via the wing tip light ground I would probably increase the wire size to 14 gauge and do something similar for the conductive path down the back of the aircraft. Bottom line, stay a long, long way black looking clouds, 20 miles isn't enough in a tempting target like a composite aircraft. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 04, 2004
Subject: Re: Engine gauge wiring
In a message dated 8/4/2004 11:57:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, davidbcaswell(at)yahoo.com writes: > > > I'm in process of wiring panel and am trying to find out the preferred > method of wiring the engine instruments hot (I) side. Do you just wire them > in series, or do you run all of the leads to a " block" somewhere that is > energized from a faston terminal ("engine instruments") on the fused e-buss? > I'm running all of the grounds to the firewall grounding block. Is there a > non grounded "block" that would be appropriate for this use? Any input would > be appreciated. David, I fabricated a "hot block" using a partial strip of the faston tabs (available on request from B&C) that they use to fabricate the ground blocks. I use a piece of 1/4" plastic as an insulator. Pop riveted the tabs to the block via a recessed hole made using a piloted bit. Then riveted the plastic block to the a panel standoff. I have four, one each for gauge power + and --, and gauge lighting + and --. A single 16 ga. wire for each -- block carries power back to the main ground block and same for carrying + power from the fuse/switch. FWIW, Doug Windhorn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Koyich" <Ron(at)Koyich.com>
Subject: Lighting strike
Date: Aug 05, 2004
Interesting event, Paul - thanks for posting! Doesn't sound like you had a spherics device on-board (other than the LED wiring ). Wondering what a Storm Scope or Strike Finder would have shown before the event. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Subject: Re: Lighting strike
Date: Aug 04, 2004
A B-52 crew faced a court martial in SAC for taking hail damage from a thunderstorm - they were in the clear about 20 miles away. The facts of the case supported that they had acted prudently and had conscienciously stayed a prudent distance away from the CB - they beat the rap. - Them buggers reach WAY OUT to getcha. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighting strike > > HI all, > > At the prompting of Eric Jones I thought I would share my experience yesterday of a lighting strike. I published a similar note on the Europa forum. For those unfamiliar it is composite construction. > > I departed yesterday from KUES up to Canada. About 90 minutes into the trip I took a lightning hit. The weather was forecasted VFR clear, however about 70 minutes into the trip I began to suspect all was "not as advertised". I noticed a cloud about 15 miles of my port side this looked ominous so I diverted away from it. I was about to call flight service when suddenly I saw a bright flash on the tip off my starboard wing. The starboard side was clear blue sky and the port side was at least 10~15 miles from any clouds. No obvious CB's were visible, however at 9000' it can be difficult to tell. > > The main contactor dropped off line so things went pretty quite until I kicked in the "E Buss" circuit. (Thanks Bob!!) > > Damage is as follows: > > - The paint is blistered on the starboard wing tip and the port side is only blackened. > - The wing tip lights (Eric's design) are destroyed with some of the screws melted. > - My Narco 122 VOR/LOC/GS is destroyed > - Wing leveler is destroyed > - Electronic fuel gauge. This is a microprocessor based device. > - Main battery contactor (Kilovac EV200 AAANA) , which has an electronic power conservation circuit. > - Manifold pressure sensing input to the EIS engine monitor. > > > The Apollo GX 60 GPS/NAV/Com and transponder survived along with the EIS and electronic propeller controller. Internal inspection of the wing tips revealed no sign of burning and nothing was evident when I removed the instrument panel, or rear bulk heads. There appears to be no structural damage to the aircraft or welding of the control elements. It appeared that the lighting entered the starboard wing tip, traveled along the common ground between the LED wing tip lights and exited the port wing tip. > > Lessons learned. Well its hard to say. I called for a standard briefing 90 minutes before take off and was told "clear VFR, a nice afternoon to go flying". I called Flight Service an hour after the event and they told me that the convective activity that subsequently moved through was completely unexpected. I normally always file IFR, I think if I had done so this time I might have been warned. I also think that I should have acted sooner on my hunch, a call 10 minutes sooner might have saved me a whole bunch of grief. Given that the conduction path was via the wing tip light ground I would probably increase the wire size to 14 gauge and do something similar for the conductive path down the back of the aircraft. Bottom line, stay a long, long way black looking clouds, 20 miles isn't enough in a tempting target like a composite aircraft. > > Paul > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2004
From: Paul <pwilson(at)climber.org>
Subject: latching relay
I need to locate a latching relay. Low current, couple of amps. Operated at 9 to 15 volts DC, hopefully with faston terminals. I dont know where to look. Furthermore I do not know how these thing work. I do know that I dont want it to draw any power when it is latched in either of the two positions. Please get me up to speed on these things, like how they work and where to buy one. Thank, Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: B Tomm <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: latching relay
Date: Aug 04, 2004
You may find what your looking for here http://www.altronix.com/p_html/6062.html Bevan RV7A fuse -----Original Message----- From: Paul [SMTP:pwilson(at)climber.org] Subject: AeroElectric-List: latching relay I need to locate a latching relay. Low current, couple of amps. Operated at 9 to 15 volts DC, hopefully with faston terminals. I dont know where to look. Furthermore I do not know how these thing work. I do know that I dont want it to draw any power when it is latched in either of the two positions. Please get me up to speed on these things, like how they work and where to buy one. Thank, Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Collins" <steveco(at)houston.rr.com>
Subject: Wire Stripper
Date: Aug 04, 2004
I need to get a wire stripper. Anyone found one that works well with Tefzel wire (I understand a lot of common strippers don't work well on it, but I don't have personal experience)? With all the wiring I'll eventually be doing, I don't mind paying a little extra for a good tool. -Steve Collins -RV-7A, wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: latching relay
This is not a latching relay. It is a standard relay that can be electrically latched. I assume that what is wanted is a relay that is stable in either position and uses energy only to change the output state. Mouser has them: http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=data.getPcodes&pcode=Magnecraft+Latching+Relays&pcodenumber=52807 Or just go to www.mouser.com and search for "Magnecraft Latching Relays" if the URL gets mangled. These are true latching relays and require no power to stay in either state. The relay itself is a plug-in type, but you can get a socket with quick connect tabs. To operate the relay, you will have to have a switch like those that operate trim tab or flap motors - i.e. a three position reversing switch (on-off-on). One polarity to turn it on, the reverse to turn it off. Dick Tasker B Tomm wrote: > >You may find what your looking for here > >http://www.altronix.com/p_html/6062.html > >Bevan >RV7A fuse > >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul [SMTP:pwilson(at)climber.org] >Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:53 PM >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: latching relay > > > I need to locate a latching relay. Low current, couple of amps. Operated >at 9 to 15 volts DC, hopefully with faston terminals. > > I dont know where to look. Furthermore I do not know how these thing work. >I do know that I dont want it to draw any power when it is latched in >either of the two positions. > > Please get me up to speed on these things, like how they work and where to >buy one. > >Thank, Paul > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
Subject: Re:
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
So - if a single fuse blows, the whole instrument chain goes down? > If not, my choice is to power the buss from the > battery contactor, then run +12v in series to each of the instruments. > Saves lots of wire. I don't think there is any need for a dedicated > "block". I ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Lighting strike
Date: Aug 05, 2004
On Aug 4, 2004, at 10:27 PM, David Carter wrote: > > > A B-52 crew faced a court martial in SAC for taking hail damage from a > thunderstorm - they were in the clear about 20 miles away. The facts > of the > case supported that they had acted prudently and had conscienciously > stayed > a prudent distance away from the CB - they beat the rap. > - Them buggers reach WAY OUT to getcha. I had a big one *chase* me over Scotts Bluff, Nebraska, once. I ended up going to Laramie, WY, and landing. I called up flight service and told the briefer how fast it was moving and he scoffed at me. I then talked him into pulling up the radar loop after which he got real quiet. After about thirty seconds he said something like, "wow, the leading edge is moving at 80 knots against the wind. I have never seen anything like it." No matter how many CBs you have seen, there is always one that will be bigger and more surprising. If you fly you will encounter CBs. They can be pretty nasty. I have had a couple of inadvertent CB penetrations (small ones, fortunately) and I can attest to the fact that it is not an event one would like to experience a second time. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re:
> Most aircraft "bundle" engine instruments on fewer fuses/breakers than there are instruments. If one has the spare fuse slots or really like the acres-of-breakers look on the panel, then protecting each instrument individually works too. Opening circuit protection in flight is a very rare event and just because you don't KNOW the numbers for engine operation, not having gages does not present a big problem with getting on the ground without breaking a sweat. Bob . . . >So - if a single fuse blows, the whole instrument chain goes down? > > > > If not, my choice is to power the buss from the > > battery contactor, then run +12v in series to each of the instruments. > > Saves lots of wire. I don't think there is any need for a dedicated > > "block". --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: flmike <flmike2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wire Stripper
Steve, One solution is an Ideal Custom Stripmaster with blades for Teflon wire. I have one with the EE type blades and it works great. http://www.idealindustries.com/pt/HandTools.nsf A 45-177 should do ya. These are different from the regular strippers in that the insulation is gripped with grit pads rather than the sawtooth type and the insulation is pinched and "plucked" off rather than being cut. The kind that try to cut the insulation end up extruding it. New they are about $140, but I found a minty one on eBay for $10. The thermal strippers also work well I hear. I just don't have any experience with those. They show up on eBay regularly. http://www.teledyneinterconnect.com/products/wire_strippers/wirestrip.asp Mike __________________________________ http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: Paul <pwilson(at)climber.org>
Subject: Re: latching relay
Hi Dick, Thanks The link helps. Paul ========= > >This is not a latching relay. It is a standard relay that can be >electrically latched. > >I assume that what is wanted is a relay that is stable in either >position and uses energy only to change the output state. > >Mouser has them: >http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=data.getPcodes&pcode=Magnecraft+Latching+Relays&pcodenumber=52807 > >Or just go to www.mouser.com and search for "Magnecraft Latching >Relays" if the URL gets mangled. > >These are true latching relays and require no power to stay in either >state. The relay itself is a plug-in type, but you can get a socket >with quick connect tabs. > >To operate the relay, you will have to have a switch like those that >operate trim tab or flap motors - i.e. a three position reversing >switch (on-off-on). One polarity to turn it on, the reverse to turn it off. > >Dick Tasker > > >B Tomm wrote: > >> >>You may find what your looking for here >> >>http://www.altronix.com/p_html/6062.html >> >>Bevan >>RV7A fuse >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Paul [SMTP:pwilson(at)climber.org] >>Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:53 PM >>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: latching relay >> >> >> I need to locate a latching relay. Low current, couple of amps. Operated >>at 9 to 15 volts DC, hopefully with faston terminals. >> >> I dont know where to look. Furthermore I do not know how these thing work. >>I do know that I dont want it to draw any power when it is latched in >>either of the two positions. >> >> Please get me up to speed on these things, like how they work and where to >>buy one. >> > >Thank, Paul -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 05, 2004
Subject: Re: latching relay
In a message dated 8/4/04 11:09:35 PM Central Daylight Time, retasker(at)optonline.net writes: Mouser has them: http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=data.getPcodes&pcode=Magnecraft+Latchi ng+Relays&pcodenumber=52807 Or just go to www.mouser.com and search for "Magnecraft Latching Relays" if the URL gets mangled. These are true latching relays and require no power to stay in either state. The relay itself is a plug-in type, but you can get a socket with quick connect tabs. To operate the relay, you will have to have a switch like those that operate trim tab or flap motors - i.e. a three position reversing switch (on-off-on). One polarity to turn it on, the reverse to turn it off. Dick Tasker Good Morning Dick, I have been looking for a source for such relays and appreciate the information given. However, I am still puzzled. One relay listed as being capable of handling ten amps has a list price of $18.94 while another relay has the same current rating and a list price of $246.00. Looking at the data available on the website, I am at a loss to determine why there is such a major price differential. Can you, or anyone else, provide a bit more education? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Lighting strike
Date: Aug 05, 2004
On Aug 5, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Dan Checkoway wrote: >>> a prudent distance away from the CB - they beat the rap. >>> - Them buggers reach WAY OUT to getcha. > > Guys, you may have misunderstood my comment. What I meant by CB was > that I > try to stay 50 miles away from any circuit breakers. I use fuses. Hey, the guy who wired by boat figured out that you can save a LOT of money by using neither breakers nor fuses. I disagreed and rewired. > What type of primer is best for lightning protection? Silver. It reflects the light-ning. Been through the primer wars, eh? > Man, I am SO kidding. You are? Huh. Who'd a thought. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff(at)foothill.net>
Subject: Wire Stripper
Date: Aug 05, 2004
Steve, I purchased the automatic stripper #WS-39 from Cleveland and it is a piece of garbage. I will send it back when I get around to it. I looked into the "Custom Stripmasters" by IDEAL which are specifically made for teflon wire with non-sharp dies but I would have to purchase two to cover 16 to 24 ga @ $123 each, so I settled for a couple of the manual types made by Klein or Ideal @ about $10 each. Just be careful. See RV7 list for more discussion on these. Apparently some builders use the cheaper stripmaster type with the sharp dies that you can buy at Radio Shack with success. I might try those also. Regards, Scott Diffenbaugh RV7A final wiring of panel. diff(at)foothill.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Lighting strike
> >Guys, you may have misunderstood my comment. What I meant by CB was that I >try to stay 50 miles away from any circuit breakers. I use fuses. > >What type of primer is best for lightning protection? Lightning protection of electronics is NOT easy. DO-160 tests call for injecting high voltage/high current waveforms into the various wiring ports of a device with an expectation that such deliberate abuse will not damage the device. The magnitude, duration and waveforms are varied depending on what kind of airplane (metal, composite), and whether the equipment is totally inside the aircraft or has exposure to direct effects (de-ice heater controllers on leading edges, gizmos with antennas sticking out, etc). I'm not aware of any textbooks on the subject although I'm sure there are many. We use the cut-n-try approach using components (transorbs, etc.) and the application guides for those components. It's a matter of selecting components and i/o treatments that will stand off the test stresses while limiting stress to the product that be applied in the lab. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: gascolator
Are you sure about this - just doesn't sound right - normally the commonly used gascolator not usually rated for being operated pressurized - I would recheck this - there normally installed on the low point between the tanks and the suction side of the fuel pump to catch debris and water from the tank. Maybe there's something for us to learn here. jerb > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <KahnSG(at)aol.com> >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: gascolator > > > > > > I'm working on an experimental plane that has the gascolator between the > > Weldon high pressure electric pump and the mechanical fuel pump. It has a >PS5C > > pressure carb. > > I always have seen the gascolator on the low pressure (suction) side of >the > > fuel pumps. > > Has anyone seen this type of setup for a pressure carb? > > Is it correct? > > Any comments? > > > > Steve >(((((((((())))))))))))) >Yes, this is how Vans Aircraft design their latest planes. Pressure is >needed to push gas into the gascolator when you periodically purge/clean the >gascolator. Do this by turning on the electric pump and pushing on the >release valve of the gascolator. > >Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 05, 2004
Subject: Unprotected Pos.
List, I've been meaning to ask this... Van's in some applications suggests connections between Master relay and starter relay using two unguarded copper bars .125x3-4" instead of #2AWG insulated. This would be on the inside of a -6a firewall, and I can only guess it's to get the two relays closer together. I had visions of an accidental ground there and a battery meltdown, so spread 'em a bit further and used regular #2 tefzel. Thoughts? Comments? Jerry Cochran >Hi Bob, > >Thanks again for your little talk at our builders banquette at OSH. I >have a question I neglected to ask. I plan on using two 12v RG batteries >in my 24v system. I'd like to mount them on the engine side of the >firewall. In order to do that they must be mounted on separate sides due >to space concerns. The question is, what's the maximum distance I can >have between the 2 interconnected batteries? No practical limit on this. Obviously, there's a "unprotected" fat wire that runs between the batteries . . . but it's out in the open on a flat surface and easily inspected for signs of compromise. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: latching relay
Well, I am not a relay expert, just an old EE (well maybe not that old). I looked at the data sheets and I can see no reason for the tremendous difference in price. The more expensive relays are mechanically latching so are somewhat more complicated than the magnetically latching cheaper relays - but I don;t think that this can explain the price difference. It looks like the contacts on the expensive version are somewhat more rugged, but as long as either is used within the specifications you should get a life that will be longer than you are likely to need for your airplane. The more expensive versions are available in nuclear qualified versions, but I doubt that Mouser is selling these versions :-) . Interestingly, the cheaper relays have a wider operating temperature range. It could be nothing more than the fact that they make lots more of the lower cost relays. Hope this helps a little, but the bottom line is I really don't know why one price is 12X the other. Dick BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: >Good Morning Dick, > >I have been looking for a source for such relays and appreciate the >information given. > >However, I am still puzzled. > >One relay listed as being capable of handling ten amps has a list price of >$18.94 while another relay has the same current rating and a list price of >$246.00. > >Looking at the data available on the website, I am at a loss to determine >why there is such a major price differential. > >Can you, or anyone else, provide a bit more education? > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob >AKA >Bob Siegfried >Ancient Aviator >Stearman N3977A >Brookeridge Airpark LL22 >Downers Grove, IL 60516 >630 985-8502 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
Subject: Re: gascolator
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
The Lancair Super ES (IO-550N) manual calls for the following: Tanks to fuel selector, Selector to input of boost pump, boost pump to gascolator, gascolator to the engine fuel pump. John > Are you sure about this - just doesn't sound right - normally the > commonly > used gascolator not usually rated for being operated pressurized - I > would recheck this - there normally installed on the low point between > the tanks and the suction side of the fuel pump to catch debris and > water from the > tank. Maybe there's something for us to learn here. jerb > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
From: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt(at)us.army.mil>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Stripper Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:55:14 -0500 Steve, I will tell you what I did.....I went down to AutoZone and bought one of their elcheapo wire strippers for $10-12. It is the kind that is spring loaded with a pair of jaws. You put the wire in the right slot and squeeze the handle and it removes the insulation and then springs back to the closed position once the handle is released. It works perfect on the Tefzel wire and will probably last me for the rest of my life. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Steve Collins [mailto:steveco(at)houston.rr.com] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Stripper I need to get a wire stripper. Anyone found one that works well with Tefzel wire (I understand a lot of common strippers don't work well on it, but I don't have personal experience)? With all the wiring I'll eventually be doing, I don't mind paying a little extra for a good tool. -Steve Collins -RV-7A, wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: gascolator
Date: Aug 05, 2004
You need a high pressure (well 15 psi anyway) gascolator for this system. The Andair gascolator works well and I think Van's has one of their own now. Greg > > Are you sure about this - just doesn't sound right - normally > the commonly used gascolator not usually rated for being > operated pressurized - I would recheck this - there normally > installed on the low point between the tanks and the suction > side of the fuel pump to catch debris and water from the > tank. Maybe there's something for us to learn here. > jerb > > > > > > > I'm working on an experimental plane that has the > gascolator between > > > the Weldon high pressure electric pump and the mechanical > fuel pump. > > > It has a > >PS5C > > > pressure carb. > > > I always have seen the gascolator on the low pressure > (suction) side > > > of > >the > > > fuel pumps. > > > Has anyone seen this type of setup for a pressure carb? > > > Is it correct? > > > Any comments? > > > > > > Steve > >(((((((((())))))))))))) > >Yes, this is how Vans Aircraft design their latest planes. > Pressure is > >needed to push gas into the gascolator when you periodically > >purge/clean the gascolator. Do this by turning on the electric pump > >and pushing on the release valve of the gascolator. > > > >Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Unprotected Pos.
Date: Aug 05, 2004
... Van's in some applications suggests connections between Master relay and starter relay using two unguarded copper bars, .125x3-4" instead of #2AWG insulated. This would be on the inside of a -6a firewall, and I can only guess it's to get the two relays closer together. I had visions of an accidental ground there and a battery meltdown, so spread 'em a bit further and used regular #2 tefzel. Thoughts? Comments? > > Jerry Cochran This seems to be a standard Vans approach except on my RV-9A the master and starter relays are on the forward side of the firewall. One of them is mounted upside down so that the two relays can be "really close". On my project I took a couple of terminal booties, slipped one bootie over one terminal and the unguarded copper bars, then snipped one end off the other bootie to cover the other terminal and remaining exposed copper bars - and tuck over the other bootie. Everything is completely covered. You would have to intentionally try to force a ground. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: Rick Girard <fly.ez(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: LSE ignition sold
Wayne asked me to let the list know that the Plasma I has sold. Thanks, Rick Girard for Wayne Blackler ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: Walter Tondu <walter(at)tondu.com>
Subject: Re: Unprotected Pos.
On 08/05 5:07, Ernest Kells wrote: > > ... Van's in some applications suggests connections between Master relay and > starter relay using two unguarded copper bars, .125x3-4" instead of #2AWG > insulated. This would be on the inside of a -6a firewall, and I can only > guess it's to get the two relays closer together. I had visions of an > accidental ground there and a battery meltdown, so spread 'em a bit further > and used regular #2 tefzel. Thoughts? Comments? > > > Jerry Cochran Shrinkwrap tubing over the bars, cut the holes out. > This seems to be a standard Vans approach except on my RV-9A the master and > starter relays are on the forward side of the firewall. One of them is > mounted upside down so that the two relays can be "really close". On my > project I took a couple of terminal booties, slipped one bootie over one > terminal and the unguarded copper bars, then snipped one end off the other > bootie to cover the other terminal and remaining exposed copper bars - and > tuck over the other bootie. Everything is completely covered. You would > have to intentionally try to force a ground. > > > > > -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Unprotected Pos.
> ... Van's in some applications suggests connections between Master relay and > starter relay using two unguarded copper bars, .125x3-4" instead of #2AWG > insulated. This would be on the inside of a -6a firewall, and I can only > guess it's to get the two relays closer together. I had visions of an > accidental ground there and a battery meltdown, so spread 'em a bit further > and used regular #2 tefzel. Thoughts? Comments? Solid metal jumpers are often used between large terminals on contactors mounted adjacent to each other. This is a common practice in ALL power distribution venues. This is good parts count reduction technique . . . and it permits very close spacing of contactors with very short conductors. One could choose to exercise a lot of concern for "exposed" conductors but I'm aware of no instances where the exposed breaker busses figured in either precipitation of (or exacerbated the outcome) of an accident. The rule-of-thumb for these concerns is to inspect the finished project and deduce what pieces of hardware represent a potential for a hard-fault to one of exposed contactor terminals or interconnection straps. If it takes less than a hammer-n-sawing activity to get an errant piece of the airplane to cause a short, then it's unlikely that a fault will occur in anything less than severe damage to the airplane. If any hardware is loose enough to cause the short without severe damage, then the solution is to secure that hardware . . . not insulate the connections against shorts caused by contact that can and should be prevented. For short runs between heavy current carrying components, copper or brass straps are the technology of choice. Insulation of these parts is optional and probably ineffective. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: master solenoid dropout?
Date: Aug 05, 2004
I flew my RV6 to Oshkosh for the first time this past Sunday. I have about 100 hours on the system. About 45 minutes into the flight over Lake Michigan I lost all electrical power to my instruments. This has never happened before. Engine did not skip a beat, FADEC was not affected. My first reaction after about 2 seconds of shock was to cycle off/on the batt/alt switch and everything came back on. Hmmm, what was that all about? Everything looks ok, voltages on both batteries show charging. About 10 minutes later a similar thing happened only for about 1 second and power was off, then instantly back on again without doing anything. After landing at Oshkosh, I checked for intermittent connections at master relay, batt/alt switch, fuse panels--could not duplicate symptom on the ground. After departure Sunday pm sure enough halfway across Lake Michigan this happened twice more just a power off and on glitch, resetting gps and transponder, Dynon is backed up directly to battery and was not affected. Does this sound like a master solenoid dropping out and has anyone experienced this? I have a Van's master solenoid. Dave Ford ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: master solenoid dropout?
> >I flew my RV6 to Oshkosh for the first time this past Sunday. I have >about 100 hours on the system. About 45 minutes into the flight over Lake >Michigan I lost all electrical power to my instruments. This has never >happened before. Engine did not skip a beat, FADEC was not affected. My >first reaction after about 2 seconds of shock was to cycle off/on the >batt/alt switch and everything came back on. Hmmm, what was that all >about? Everything looks ok, voltages on both batteries show >charging. About 10 minutes later a similar thing happened only for about >1 second and power was off, then instantly back on again without doing >anything. After landing at Oshkosh, I checked for intermittent >connections at master relay, batt/alt switch, fuse panels--could not >duplicate symptom on the ground. After departure Sunday pm sure enough >halfway across Lake Michigan this happened twice more just a power off and >on glitch, resetting gps and transponder, Dynon is backed up directly to! > battery and was not affected. Does this sound like a master solenoid > dropping out and has anyone experienced this? I have a Van's master solenoid. > >Dave Ford You didn't say what Z-figure you used, if any. You mentioned two batteries so I presume you have dual battery master contactors. If you are wired per any of the 'Connection's z-figures, then you have to have dual, simultaneious contactor failure to exhibit any symptoms common to contactor failure. I presume your FADEC system gets power from battery busses and had no dependency on anything other than charged batteries for operation. If you have voltmeter access to the batteries and the voltage was greater than 13.0 volts during the 'outage' then your contactors are not involved. You later mention a Van's master solenoid in singular speech . . . this raises questions about how your dual battery system is wired. If you can enlighten us more as to your system's architecture details, perhaps we can be more helpful. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com>
Subject: WigWag switch Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:38:28 -0400 Bob, I'm looking for a source for the Microswitch 4TL1-10 switch you call out in your Single Switch, two power source schematic. I've looked in several web sights to no avail. Any suggestions? Fred Stucklen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: [RV-8] Single Point Grounding
I have the same question, and I will have two batteries in the back. It seems like grounding on the airframe at the back, plus a good copper cable or Super-2-CCA FatWire http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm also running up front, grounded from place to place, would be the best solution. Perhaps I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be. Mickey At 11:53 06-08-04, Scott Chastain wrote: >I took Bob Nuckoll's course last fall and am slowly getting through >the manual. I will have an aft battery installation which presents a >special problem. I had planned on using the Nuckoll's design for the >single point grounding system, where the negative lead from the >battery is brought up to a ground bus on the firewall. There, all >avionics from the panel are grounded to a "forest" of fast-on >connectors, and on the forward side of the firewall, the engine is >grounded along with other components under the cowling. One benefit >of doing this is to eliminate noise, according to Bob. However, I >had not planned on having to run two battery leads up to the >firewall. It would seem silly to add the extra weight by having both >the negative and positive leads run up that far on an aluminum bird. >Has anyone already done this to conform with the Bob Nuckoll's >design? If not, for those of you who are aleady flying with a rear >battery installation, where have you run the negative lead and where >do you ground most, if not all, of your panel equipment? Have you >encountered noise problems by not having the single point ground? >Thanks! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Subject: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
Date: Aug 06, 2004
I am new to this list and I've read a bunch of previous postings, but haven't found this exact answer. If I missed it, my apologies in advance. My oldest son is building an RV7 and I plan on doing the same - once I get his younger siblings through college. So right now I'm doing the stuff I can afford ($0) like research and planning. My son is just starting his wings, and he hasn't started working electrical details yet, so being a helpful dad I've been looking into that area ;-) Unfortunately he lives in ABQ and I'm in Michigan, so I don't get to go out and pound rivets with him very often. We are looking at the Eggenfeller Subaru engines and all electric panels (of course). The E-Subaru folks recommend using the EXPBUS, which at first glance seemed reasonable (quick, easy). But upon deeper investigation I like the AeroElectric approach better (I've read virtually every file available on that site - fabulous job Bob!!). They use the EXPBUS for the ignition switch and main fuel pump switch and (apparently) backup battery management. I haven't been able to find any description of how the EXPBUS manages the backup battery, and some recent postings on the RV list make me even more wary. So the short story is, I tried to find an existing Z-architecture which meets these needs and while some are close, none are exact (not surprisingly). So I've come up with the attached for your comments. It is not up to Z standards (yet) - wire sizes are not shown and fuses shown are a guess, but I wanted to get some input at this point. This plan uses the internally regulated alternator that comes with the engine, so OV protection and OV/LV warning are included. (I've read the whole discussion on internal vs. external regulators) It seems pretty straight forward to modify an existing Z-arch to this config, but the devil is in the details. I don't have a CAD program so I created the drawings using Powerpoint (quit laughing) and saved as GIFs. Bob N will undoubtedly recognize some images I shamelessly cut/pasted from his drawings (too lazy to re-create them in PPT). I've also attached the electrical system for the E-Subaru. This switch/relay architecture is right out of the installation manual for that engine. This one is really non-standard, but it shows (with color) all the different paths for the switches and relay. Their drawings didn't do this, so I did (I lived in Missouri for 17 years). As a newbie, I've got to say that reading these lists is a hoot - as well as being educational! Dennis Glaeser glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com -or- dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com <> <> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Subject: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 Alternator
Date: Aug 06, 2004
My first newbie mistake. I confirmed that attachments are stripped from messages (thought about it after hitting Send, then investigated). I will put the diagrams on the web tonight and send that link. Dennis Glaeser ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Wire Stripper
Date: Aug 06, 2004
< I need to get a wire stripper. Anyone found one that works well with Tefzel wire (I understand a lot of common strippers don't work well on it, but I don't have personal experience)? With all the wiring I'll eventually be doing, I don't mind paying a little extra for a good tool.-Steve Collins>> 8/6/2004 Hello Steve, Here is a low cost one to consider, it is the Klein 1004, a scissors-with-a-notch type stripper. The advantage of this stripper is that it has an infinitely adjustable notch opening from no opening at all to 12 AWG. Tightening a screw stop keeps the notch opening at the same setting. The technique is to practice strip on a scrap piece of wire and keep adjusting the notch setting until you get it just right for that particular wire. Then you can start stripping on your system wire. OC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <danobrien(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: [RV-8] Single Point Grounding
Date: Aug 06, 2004
This issue arose recently for builders of Lancair ES's, which typically mount the battery(s) in the rear for weight and balance reasons. Awhile back Bob published a diagram labelled Z-14RearBats.pdf, or something like that. This is a modification of Z-14 when batteries are mounted in the rear. This diagram calls for groundblocks in front and back with a fat wire connecting them. Then you can ground items in back to the rear ground block. I can send this to you if you need it, or perhaps Bob can make it available on his site? ................ I have the same question, and I will have two batteries in the back. It seems like grounding on the airframe at the back, plus a good copper cable or Super-2-CCA FatWire http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm also running up front, grounded from place to place, would be the best solution. Perhaps I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be. Mickey At 11:53 06-08-04, Scott Chastain wrote: I took Bob Nuckoll's course last fall and am slowly getting through the manual. I will have an aft battery installation which presents a special problem. I had planned on using the Nuckoll's design for the single point grounding system, where the negative lead from the battery is brought up to a ground bus on the firewall. There, all avionics from the panel are grounded to a "forest" of fast-on connectors, and on the forward side of the firewall, the engine is grounded along with other components under the cowling. One benefit of doing this is to eliminate noise, according to Bob. However, I had not planned on having to run two battery leads up to the firewall. It would seem silly to add the extra weight by having both the negative and positive leads run up that far on an aluminum bird. Has anyone already done this to conform with the Bob Nuckoll's design? If not, for those of you who are aleady flying with a rear battery installation, where have you run the negative lead and where do you ground most, if not all, of your panel equipment? Have you encountered noise problems by not having the single point ground? Thanks! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Low Audio Output
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Hi All- I spoke with PSE about the PMA audio panels and the issue of MP3 et al non-compatibility. As it happens, they put a more powerful pre amp in the PMA 5000 (and up) audio panels for just this reason. Since I have a 4000 in my -8 and am working on wiring up the panel, I'd love to get some feedback from those of you who have been experimenting with the over the counter pre amp options discussed in this forum a month or so ago. What works, is easy, and of course, cheap? Glen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Some time back we were discussing the Apple iPod and other hard-disk-based MP3 players. Someone brought up the concern that the hard disk drives are not designed to operate much above 8000 ft pressure altitude. I agree that there is some concern. But I got back from a bit of a trip around the US (45 hours of flying in two weeks) and ended up using my iPod almost at the flight levels much of the time. Almost all of the time was at 12,500' or above and about 15 hours were at 17,500'. The iPod never showed any signs of distress even at 17,500'. Does this mean that the iPod is operating within its design limits at 17,500'? No, but it does show that it will not immediately fail there either. BTW, I experienced something else very rare on this trip: no headwinds. My groundspeed was less than my true air-speed for less than 30 minutes out of 45 hours of flying in a trip that covered from St. Thomas, to the Grand Canyon, to Washington, DC, and back to St. Thomas. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lakemichigancollege.edu>
alternator
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1
alternator Hi Dennis, Just want to let you know that I've been flying my non-EXPbus Eggenfellner Glastar for 330 hours now, using an approach similar to what you suggest. I cobbled together a couple of Bob's drawings with a few of the requirements for the Subaru, e.g., fuel pump fail-over relay, safe power for the computer, etc. Wasn't very hard to do. My circuit diagrams are all freehand, so not very easy to read. I'd be glad to help if I can. Bill Yamokoski, N4970Y St. Joseph, MI We are looking at the Eggenfeller Subaru engines and all electric panels (of course). The E-Subaru folks recommend using the EXPBUS, which at first glance seemed reasonable (quick, easy). But upon deeper investigation I like the AeroElectric approach better (I've read virtually every file available on that site - fabulous job Bob!!). They use the EXPBUS for the ignition switch and main fuel pump switch and (apparently) backup battery management.. I haven't been able to find any description of how the EXPBUS manages the backup battery, and some recent postings on the RV list make me even more wary. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear(at)new.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Low Audio Output
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Glen: While at Oshkosh I visited the PS Engineering booth with the expressed intent to try my Dell MP3 player through their displayed PMA 4000, which I am installing in my panel. I had recalled this thread regarding low audio output and wanted to see if I too was going to have a problem After they hunted up a cord to connect my Dell to the 4000, I was happy to hear that there was no problem with the audio being low. Audio from the intercom was just as loud as that coming from the MP3 player. Not sure if this is a function of the Dell or what, as I am not an audiophile. All I know is the two units seem to work well with each other. Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P (reserved) firewall forward Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Low Audio Output > > Hi All- > > I spoke with PSE about the PMA audio panels and the issue of MP3 et al > non-compatibility. As it happens, they put a more powerful pre amp in the > PMA 5000 (and up) audio panels for just this reason. Since I have a 4000 > in my -8 and am working on wiring up the panel, I'd love to get some > feedback from those of you who have been experimenting with the over the > counter pre amp options discussed in this forum a month or so ago. What > works, is easy, and of course, cheap? > > Glen > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Forgive my ignorance - do the iPods store on hard drives (any platter rotation) or on solid state memory? Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Brian Lloyd; Date: 01:40 PM 8/6/2004 -0400) Some time back we were discussing the Apple iPod and other hard-disk-based MP3 players. Someone brought up the concern that the hard disk drives are not designed to operate much above 8000 ft pressure altitude. I agree that there is some concern. But I got back from a bit of a trip around the US (45 hours of flying in two weeks) and ended up using my iPod almost at the flight levels much of the time. Almost all of the time was at 12,500' or above and about 15 hours were at 17,500'. The iPod never showed any signs of distress even at 17,500'. Does this mean that the iPod is operating within its design limits at 17,500'? No, but it does show that it will not immediately fail there either. BTW, I experienced something else very rare on this trip: no headwinds. My groundspeed was less than my true air-speed for less than 30 minutes out of 45 hours of flying in a trip that covered from St. Thomas, to the Grand Canyon, to Washington, DC, and back to St. Thomas. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 06, 2004
>Some time back we were discussing the Apple iPod and other >hard-disk-based MP3 players. Someone brought up the concern that the >hard disk drives are not designed to operate much above 8000 ft >pressure altitude. I agree that there is some concern. Check Google "iPod altitude" and get lots of data on this. Brian you may have gotten lucky! Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net "When dealing with the enemy, it helps if he thinks you're a little bit crazy." --Gen. Curtis LeMay ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re:
> >From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> >To: "'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'" >Subject: WigWag switch >Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:38:28 -0400 > >Bob, > > I'm looking for a source for the Microswitch 4TL1-10 switch you call out >in your Single Switch, two power source schematic. I've looked in several >web sights to no avail. Any suggestions? Both Allied and Carlton-Bates stock this switch normally but are presently out of stock. They both have quantities of 4TL1-10E lever lock see page 138 of: http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30136.pdf The "E" version is locked in mid position. I suppose you could rewire so that the middle, locked position is off and you move either up or down for "landing" and "wig-wag" Go here to order: http://www.alliedelec.com/cart/partlookup.asp Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Where to find Honeywell 4TL1-10 Switches
> >From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCFuelCells.com> >To: "'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'" >Subject: WigWag switch >Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:38:28 -0400 > >Bob, > > I'm looking for a source for the Microswitch 4TL1-10 switch you call out >in your Single Switch, two power source schematic. I've looked in several >web sights to no avail. Any suggestions? Both Allied and Carlton-Bates stock this switch normally but are presently out of stock. They both have quantities of 4TL1-10E lever lock see page 138 of: http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30136.pdf The "E" version is locked in mid position. I suppose you could rewire so that the middle, locked position is off and you move either up or down for "landing" and "wig-wag" Go here to order: http://www.alliedelec.com/cart/partlookup.asp Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 06, 2004
On Aug 6, 2004, at 3:53 PM, rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance - do the iPods store on hard drives (any platter > rotation) or on solid state memory? The iPod uses a small rotating hard disk. That is how it gets such high data density (up to 40GB) in a pocket-sized package. Being a hard drive, the heads fly above the medium on a cushion of air. As air density decreases the head flying height is reduced until the head eventually touches the medium (head crash). My iPod showed no problems at 17,500'. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: "David Shani" <David.Shani@sanmina-sci.com>
Hello Bob, In Oshkosh I was witnessing a heated debate on the above topic. 12V people was arguing availability of cheap components, and the 24V guys talked about weight savings and electric ignition functionality at engine start. Any thoughts about the subject from the list?? Thanks, David Shani LEZ - systems stage, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 06, 2004
On Aug 6, 2004, at 4:08 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > > > >> Some time back we were discussing the Apple iPod and other >> hard-disk-based MP3 players. Someone brought up the concern that the >> hard disk drives are not designed to operate much above 8000 ft >> pressure altitude. I agree that there is some concern. > > Check Google "iPod altitude" and get lots of data on this. Brian you > may > have gotten lucky! I was aware of that. Most devices have some "headroom" above the specification built in to accommodate manufacturing differences. I took a chance it it worked just fine. YMMV. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Date: Aug 06, 2004
I and a few others are members of the 24v faction. Most on the list are 12v fans. I like 24v because it gives you all the power you need, a 70A 24v alternator is the equivalent of a 140A 12v one. Just one example, my entire panel (and it's quite sophisticated) draws only 11A. My standby alternator puts out 20A, well within its capacity. This eliminates the need to have an endurance (emergency) bus on the airplane. There must be a reason why every manufacturer of certified airplanes has moved to 24v systems. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Shani Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. <David.Shani@sanmina-sci.com> Hello Bob, In Oshkosh I was witnessing a heated debate on the above topic. 12V people was arguing availability of cheap components, and the 24V guys talked about weight savings and electric ignition functionality at engine start. Any thoughts about the subject from the list?? Thanks, David Shani LEZ - systems stage, == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
More food for thought. Hard drives have to be sealed since the heads ride so close to the platter(s). If there is an air issue with the hard drives that would mean that air has to enter and escape and with no filter, any microscopic dust particle would crash the heads. I think it is more important the "g" rating of a hard drive. In smooth air, the hard drives should work in about any altitude. Now put in a little turbulance and you might have a problem. If would be like taking the IPOD and dropping it on the floor while it is running. Now the screens might be another issue, since lcd's are liquid and thus might expand at altitude and may burst. I am not sure about the architecture of the IPOD, but it could be that the hard drive, if it does have one, might be used to load up its memory as its buffer so the hard drive might be starting and stopping and only runs to load up the internal memory. From this internal memory, the songs are played. This would allow to handle "g"s more effectively, since the spinning of the drives is very small. But just my guess. Bob Kuc ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> Date: Friday, August 6, 2004 4:38 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod and altitude > > > On Aug 6, 2004, at 3:53 PM, rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote: > > > > > Forgive my ignorance - do the iPods store on hard drives (any > platter> rotation) or on solid state memory? > > The iPod uses a small rotating hard disk. That is how it gets > such > high data density (up to 40GB) in a pocket-sized package. Being a > hard > drive, the heads fly above the medium on a cushion of air. As air > density decreases the head flying height is reduced until the head > eventually touches the medium (head crash). My iPod showed no > problems > at 17,500'. > > Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza > brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 > +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 > > > _- > _- > _- > _- > ======================================================================== > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Ritter" <mritter509(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: [RV-8] Single Point Grounding
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Dan, If not to much trouble could you send me the Z-14RearBats.pdf diagram. Thanks From: danobrien(at)cox.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: [RV-8] Single Point Grounding Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:44:28 -0400 -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: danobrien(at)cox.net This issue arose recently for builders of Lancair ES's, which typically mount the battery(s) in the rear for weight and balance reasons.Awhile back Bob published a diagram labelled Z-14RearBats.pdf, or something like that.This is a modification of Z-14 when batteries are mounted in the rear.This diagram calls for groundblocks in front and back with a fat wire connecting them.Then you can ground items in back to the rear ground block. I can send this to you if you need it, or perhaps Bob can make it available on his site? ................ I have the same question, and I will have two batteries in the back. It seems like grounding on the airframe at the back, plus a good copper cable or Super-2-CCA FatWire http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm also running up front, grounded from place to place, would be the best solution.Perhaps I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be. Mickey At 11:53 06-08-04, Scott Chastain wrote: I took Bob Nuckoll's course last fall and am slowly getting through the manual. I will have an aft battery installation which presents a special problem. I had planned on using the Nuckoll's design for the single point grounding system, where the negative lead from the battery is brought up to a ground bus on the firewall. There, all avionics from the panel are grounded to a "forest" of fast-on connectors, and on the forward side of the firewall, the engine is grounded along with other components under the cowling. One benefit of doing this is to eliminate noise, according to Bob. However, I had not planned on having to run two battery leads up to the firewall. It would seem silly to add the extra weight by having both the negative and positive leads run up that far on an aluminum bird. Has anyone already done this to conform with the Bob Nuckoll's design? If not, for those of you who are aleady flying with a rear battery installation, where have you run the negative lead and where do you ground most, if not all, of your panel equipment? Have you encountered noise problems by not having the single point ground? Thanks! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I had thought that most hard drives are NOT sealed, so I did a little looking around and found the following (not the only article): http://members.iweb.net.au/~pstorr/pcbook/book4/hdtech.htm > > > More food for thought. Hard drives have to be sealed since the heads > ride so close to the platter(s). If there is an air issue with the hard > drives that would mean that air has to enter and escape and with no > filter, any microscopic dust particle would crash the heads. I think it > is more important the "g" rating of a hard drive. In smooth air, the > hard drives should work in about any altitude. Now put in a little > turbulance and you might have a problem. If would be like taking the > IPOD and dropping it on the floor while it is running. Now the screens > might be another issue, since lcd's are liquid and thus might expand at > altitude and may burst. I am not sure about the architecture of the > IPOD, but it could be that the hard drive, if it does have one, might be > used to load up its memory as its buffer so the hard drive might be > starting and stopping and only runs to load up the internal memory. > From this internal memory, the songs are played. This would allow to > handle "g"s more effectively, since the spinning of the drives is very > small. But just my guess. > > Bob Kuc > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> > Date: Friday, August 6, 2004 4:38 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod and altitude >> >> >> On Aug 6, 2004, at 3:53 PM, rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote: >> >> > >> > Forgive my ignorance - do the iPods store on hard drives (any >> platter> rotation) or on solid state memory? >> >> The iPod uses a small rotating hard disk. That is how it gets >> such >> high data density (up to 40GB) in a pocket-sized package. Being a >> hard >> drive, the heads fly above the medium on a cushion of air. As air >> density decreases the head flying height is reduced until the head >> eventually touches the medium (head crash). My iPod showed no >> problems >> at 17,500'. >> >> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza >> brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 >> +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 >> >> >> _- >> _- >> _- >> _- >> ======================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: RE: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Date: Aug 06, 2004
<David.Shani@sanmina-sci.com> >12V people ....arguing availability of cheap components, and the 24V guys >talked about weight savings and electric ignition functionality at >engine start. The auto guys are going to 42 volts DC, so soon this voltage will be what most automotive hardware will be. Increasing the DC voltage results in smaller power conductors since delivered Watts is Amps X Volts and the size of the conductor is a function only of Amperes. Motors of course are also smaller. But this trick has its limits. At 42 volts DC an arc may not always go out on its own. This is a problem that has received much attention. By the way, as far as I understand it, safety agencies call any voltage over 42.2 volts no longer "low voltage" enough for human contact. Thus the 42 volt limit. Many aircraft (like the Space Shuttle) use some DC and some AC. The Space Shuttle is a regular old 28 VDC system for some things, but much of the craft uses 120 VAC 400 hertz 3-phase. The advantages are tiny transformers and motors and actuators and power conductors too. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net "Then I got married. I thought...well, I figured that...ahhh....Hell I don't know WHAT I was thinking...." --My friend Victor ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
1. All hard drives breathe. If you disassemble one (not a functioning one please) you will find there is a specific section with air holes and a filter. 2. LCDs are filled with a liquid. Liquids do not expand appreciably with changes in external air pressure. The LCD will be fine at any reasonable altitude. 3. The comment about Gs with a hard drive is right on, but the comment about "any altitude" is wrong. The other email explanations regarding the head "flying" on a film of air are correct - as the air density decreases the lift decreases until you have no margin for any Gs and you have a head crash. A single crash may not destroy anything - depending on how "bad" it is. Or it may just damage the magnetic coating so the next time it tries to record something there it doesn't work. Or it could destroy the head and you end up with a several hundred dollar paperweight! I wouldn't take my operating Ipod above 10K feet for any reason unless I was a real gambler (I am not). Turned off, it is fine to any altitude. Your luck may vary, Dick Tasker bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com wrote: > > >More food for thought. Hard drives have to be sealed since the heads ride so close to the platter(s). If there is an air issue with the hard drives that would mean that air has to enter and escape and with no filter, any microscopic dust particle would crash the heads. I think it is more important the "g" rating of a hard drive. In smooth air, the hard drives should work in about any altitude. Now put in a little turbulance and you might have a problem. If would be like taking the IPOD and dropping it on the floor while it is running. Now the screens might be another issue, since lcd's are liquid and thus might expand at altitude and may burst. >I am not sure about the architecture of the IPOD, but it could be that the hard drive, if it does have one, might be used to load up its memory as its buffer so the hard drive might be starting and stopping and only runs to load up the internal memory. From this internal memory, the songs are played. This would allow to handle "g"s more effectively, since the spinning of the drives is very small. But just my guess. > >Bob Kuc > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> >Date: Friday, August 6, 2004 4:38 pm >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod and altitude > > >> >> >>On Aug 6, 2004, at 3:53 PM, rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>>Forgive my ignorance - do the iPods store on hard drives (any >>> >>> >>platter> rotation) or on solid state memory? >> >>The iPod uses a small rotating hard disk. That is how it gets >>such >>high data density (up to 40GB) in a pocket-sized package. Being a >>hard >>drive, the heads fly above the medium on a cushion of air. As air >>density decreases the head flying height is reduced until the head >>eventually touches the medium (head crash). My iPod showed no >>problems >>at 17,500'. >> >>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza >>brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 >>+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 >> >> >>_- >>_- >>_- >>_- >>======================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I agree with everything you said, but I would point out that your systems will burn the same number of Watts, regardless of what the Amp/Volt combination is. The number of watts determines the amount of heat, and is the amount of power being dissipated. You save on wire size/weight only where mechanical robustness is not a factor. Certified manufacturers are buying all new certified components for their new airplane production. New certified 24v components are not typically more expensive than their 12v equivalents, so cost is not really a concern. Custom aircraft builders are not bound to using certified components, and hence may choose from the much larger group of low cost, high quality automotive items, and save significant money compared to using blessed aircraft parts. Regards, Matt- > > > I and a few others are members of the 24v faction. Most on the list are > 12v fans. I like 24v because it gives you all the power you need, a 70A > 24v alternator is the equivalent of a 140A 12v one. > > Just one example, my entire panel (and it's quite sophisticated) draws > only 11A. My standby alternator puts out 20A, well within its capacity. > This eliminates the need to have an endurance (emergency) bus on the > airplane. > > There must be a reason why every manufacturer of certified airplanes has > moved to 24v systems. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David > Shani > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. > > > <David.Shani@sanmina-sci.com> > > > Hello Bob, > > In Oshkosh I was witnessing a heated debate on the above topic. 12V > people was arguing availability of cheap components, and the 24V guys > talked about weight savings and electric ignition functionality at > engine start. > > Any thoughts about the subject from the list?? > > Thanks, > > David Shani > LEZ - systems stage, > > > == > == > == > == > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli(at)cox.net>
Subject: KX 125 HELP
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Does anyone happen to know how the KX 125 interfaces with the Flightcom 403? I am fairly clear on the 403 but not sure which pins of the KX 125 interfaces with it. I built the isolated ground system shown on the 403 schematic in order to take the CD player out put (which normally goes to speakers) to convert the 8 ohm to 600 ohm for head phone use (pins 1, 18, 19). But not being a educated electronics guy I'm unsure which pins on the King interfaces with pins 1, 17, 21, 8 on the 403! Because I'm not using any other remote heads, I think besides the antennas, and power, this will be the only interface. If anyone has the know how to complete this I would appreciate any help offered. Mickey Billings RV7 N445BH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Subject: Re: RE: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
In a message dated 8/6/04 5:14:52 PM Central Daylight Time, emjones(at)charter.net writes: Many aircraft (like the Space Shuttle) use some DC and some AC. The Space Shuttle is a regular old 28 VDC system for some things, but much of the craft uses 120 VAC 400 hertz 3-phase. The advantages are tiny transformers and motors and actuators and power conductors too. Good Afternoon Eric, I am sure you do not mean to imply that such equipment is strictly space stuff. The 1948 DC-6s had the same voltages and frequencies in use and it was carried on through all of the subsequent piston powered airliners. So did every jet powered transport I ever flew. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Subject: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
Date: Aug 06, 2004
Here are the diagrams mentioned in my original post: http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html <http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html> Dennis Glaeser glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com -or- dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2004
From: Corey James <flycmj8252(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RE: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Interesting... the Apache helicopter uses the same electrical system as the space shuttle for all of the same reasons. Regards, Corey BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/6/04 5:14:52 PM Central Daylight Time, emjones(at)charter.net writes: Many aircraft (like the Space Shuttle) use some DC and some AC. The Space Shuttle is a regular old 28 VDC system for some things, but much of the craft uses 120 VAC 400 hertz 3-phase. The advantages are tiny transformers and motors and actuators and power conductors too. Good Afternoon Eric, I am sure you do not mean to imply that such equipment is strictly space stuff. The 1948 DC-6s had the same voltages and frequencies in use and it was carried on through all of the subsequent piston powered airliners. So did every jet powered transport I ever flew. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Ford" <dford(at)michweb.net>
Subject: master solenoid dropout?
Date: Aug 07, 2004
Bob, I have used a combination of the Z drawings to fit needs of the FADEC system. Basically as FADEC requires two independent power sources I have chosen: 2 batteries, one a small 7 amp battery charged by an SD-8 alternator via its own aux alt. switch, c.b., relay, ovp. This is the FADEC primary power and also tied to ESS buss via switch to cathode end of ess buss diode. It is hot from battery to fadec prim. power buss. Main starting battery has its contactor wired essentially as your Z-2 battery contactor portion to main & Ess buss, batt/alt sw, ovp, Ford regulator, starter & main alternator. It also is wired hot as secondary FADEC power. The batteries are not tied together for starting and remain independent only commonly having access to ESS buss via ess buss sw. When I lost power I was not prepared to look at voltmeters on Dynon (which did not lose power) to see what actual voltages were. This was essentially a glitch but it was to me as if the main power relay lost contact momentarily. I will be checking ground connections until I can duplicate this symptom enough to effectively troubleshoot. Any suggestions? Dave Ford RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 07, 2004
On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:19 PM, Richard Tasker wrote: > > > 1. All hard drives breathe. If you disassemble one (not a functioning > one please) you will find there is a specific section with air holes > and > a filter. > 2. LCDs are filled with a liquid. Liquids do not expand appreciably > with changes in external air pressure. The LCD will be fine at any > reasonable altitude. > 3. The comment about Gs with a hard drive is right on, but the comment > about "any altitude" is wrong. The other email explanations regarding > the head "flying" on a film of air are correct - as the air density > decreases the lift decreases until you have no margin for any Gs and > you > have a head crash. A single crash may not destroy anything - depending > on how "bad" it is. Or it may just damage the magnetic coating so the > next time it tries to record something there it doesn't work. Or it > could destroy the head and you end up with a several hundred dollar > paperweight! You got all that right. There is one other thing to add: modern disk drives are designed for the heads to "land" on the medium. In olden days the magnetic medium was soft. It consisted of iron oxide in a binder just like magnetic tape. A head touching down on the medium meant damage to the medium. The disk drives therefore would retract the heads completely on power-down. I remember one disk drive I worked on had a set of AA-sized NiCd batteries that would be connected to the voice-coil actuator on power-fail to force the heads to retract. It was crude but effective. Modern drives use a plated metallic medium. It is quite hard and quite smooth. This allows the heads to land and take-off from the surface of the disk many times without damage. It is why we don't worry much about head crashes anymore. Every time you power the disk up or down it experiences a "head-crash." Still, if the head remained in contact with the disk for a long time it would eventually damage the disk. Of perhaps greater consideration is temperature and cooling. In the case of convection (forced air) cooling, as air density decreases you need to move a greater volume of air to achieve the same heat transfer. This is why equipment designed for very high altitude operation is designed for conduction cooling. The iPod is designed to cool by conduction through its case. A laptop is not. A laptop computer at very high altitude may not be able to move enough air to keep its processor and/or disk drive cool enough to operate safely. > I wouldn't take my operating Ipod above 10K feet for any reason unless > I > was a real gambler (I am not). Turned off, it is fine to any > altitude. I think there is probably some leeway with the altitude but given that we don't know how much "headroom" Apple built into the iPod your words are prudent. But I don't think that the unit will fail at 10,001'. I don't even think it will fail at 12,500'. Mine didn't fail at 17,500. And if it did, I don't think it will be permanently damaged if you don't try to keep playing it. And as I said in my earlier message, your results may vary. > Your luck may vary, Seems I lucked out this time, eh? It would be interesting to find out who's drives they use and then find the original manufacturer's data on safe operation. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator/Battery Switches
>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob, I'm hoping to use your OVM-14 on my RV7 >electrical system, based in part on your z11 drawing, but I was hoping to >have two separate switches for the master and alternator field... in your >diagram on wiring the OVM-14 there is a note that says "Battery and >alternator should come on and of together". What is the reson for this? Alternators do not run well without a battery on line. Since the very earliest days of alternator installations, most light aircraft have used interlocked battery and alternator switches to insure that the alternator cannot be left on line without the battery being on also. Notable exceptions are the Bonanza and Barons where Beech went to the trouble of making sure that their alternators performed at minimal standards sans battery. It is my best recommendation that the alternator/battery controls be wired as depicted in the Z-figures and that you maintain your battery such that e-bus loads can be powered for duration of fuel aboard. This approach will offer system performance and reliability unmatched by any certified aircraft I'm aware of. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: RE: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Date: Aug 07, 2004
On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:14 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > Increasing the DC voltage results in > smaller power conductors since delivered Watts is Amps X Volts and the > size > of the conductor is a function only of Amperes. At higher voltages you can also accept greater voltage drop so you can accept a longer cable run for the same percentage of voltage drop. This becomes really interesting at higher currents. For instance, if I have to have a remote battery for starting, I would much rather have a 28V electrical system because I can tolerate greater voltage drop and still get acceptable performance. Avionics has something interesting now too. Most modern radios use "universal" switching power supplies that will work from something like 10V to 32V. If you have a 28V electrical system the buss voltage will rarely drop below about 15-16V even while cranking the engine. This means that your avionics can be on and remain on without dropping out. This is useful for things that have a significant start-up time like GPS receivers and AHRS. Personally I fall into the 28V camp myself. In doing a new electrical system for my CJ6A I plan to stick with 28V. I will have an equalizer for the two 12V batteries yielding 14V for those devices for which I can only find in 14V flavors. High-power stuff will be 28V Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 11540 Dudkoff
>Comments/Questions: Hello Bob , I am a RV-6 builder with 19 hr flt time. >Van's Alternator failed >ND 18148,ext reg., 35 amp ,no Fan!, with B&G linear regulator.I had a >blast cooling tube. I still cooked the alternator. I understand the most >reliable ALT is the two internal fan type. I am improving the cooling >system by making an external cover on the back of the alternator and force >the air through the internals. Some research I have done suggest that the >internal temperature of the electrical components should not exceed 85 deg >C. Is this correct? Before you charge off and do a lot of work, are you SURE the alternator failed due to lack of cooling? Keep in mind that hundreds of RV's are flying with Van's suggested alternator. All modern alternators are very robust and the vast majority should run trouble free for TBO on the engine. Cooling issues are DESIGNED in . . . if your alternator died of overheat, and it was installed per Van's suggestions, then many, MANY alternators are similarly at-risk for cooking to death. Field experience suggests this is not so. What are your system loads on the alternator in cruising flight? Did you make any changes from Van's recommendations and/or successful installations already flying that might account for an installation issue? The LR-3 has been built in the thousands for over 10 years and experience suggests that this device is similarly suited to operation in airplanes without extra ordinary attention to cooling. Internal temperatures on alternators can exceed 150 degrees C on windings at full load and minimal cooling. Unless you can identify a serious deviation from recommended installation practices, I think it's more likely that your alternator suffered a random event failure of some kind. Are you sure that the Van's alternator doesn't have internal fans? I think ND went to internal fans on all designs years ago. In any case, it should be very easy to acquire a 35-40 amp machine that does have such fans. What size pulley are you running on your alternator. Stock ND alternators tend to come with relatively small pulleys which causes them to run fast on a Lycoming installation. I recommend you stay with the small pulley to keep it cooler and give better output at idle and taxi RPMs. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Brian >Seems I lucked out this time, eh? Who knows you might be one of the guys who are always lucky. :) Not my case - if the specs say "it'll fail at 10K" mine probably would try desperately failing at 9999 (or earlier). >It would be interesting to find out who's drives they use and then find >the original manufacturer's data on safe operation. Yes, it would. As an extension of this I was wondering: doesn't some military equipment contain hard drives; probably mil specs are are more air density demanding; who makes these drives; also, the cabin is probably pressurized (but drives in mil installations should not rely on that).... More and more food fer thought. In the case of playing mp3 the highest _practical_ bandwith would be about 320 kbs uncomressed (in most cases under 180 kbs or VBR, which falls mostly under 180, produces excellent results, unless it's video-audio). That makes the necessary read speed less than 320 kbs. Hard drives are capable of tens (or hundreds) of MB per second, so the software of mp3 players is designed to awake the drive, read file sections (as much as memory allows) and put the drive to sleep until the next read. A drive works intermittently being awake only a fraction of the playing time. In order to damage it one has to find the moment it's awake and apply g-fources and/or the thin air factor during that time. If it is someone else's drive the laws of statistical probabilities may apply; in my case it's usually Murphy's law/s. Ohh.. well.... Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Brian Lloyd; Date: 08:47 AM 8/7/2004 -0400) On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:19 PM, Richard Tasker wrote: > > > 1. All hard drives breathe. If you disassemble one (not a functioning > one please) you will find there is a specific section with air holes > and > a filter. > 2. LCDs are filled with a liquid. Liquids do not expand appreciably > with changes in external air pressure. The LCD will be fine at any > reasonable altitude. > 3. The comment about Gs with a hard drive is right on, but the comment > about "any altitude" is wrong. The other email explanations regarding > the head "flying" on a film of air are correct - as the air density > decreases the lift decreases until you have no margin for any Gs and > you > have a head crash. A single crash may not destroy anything - depending > on how "bad" it is. Or it may just damage the magnetic coating so the > next time it tries to record something there it doesn't work. Or it > could destroy the head and you end up with a several hundred dollar > paperweight! You got all that right. There is one other thing to add: modern disk drives are designed for the heads to "land" on the medium. In olden days the magnetic medium was soft. It consisted of iron oxide in a binder just like magnetic tape. A head touching down on the medium meant damage to the medium. The disk drives therefore would retract the heads completely on power-down. I remember one disk drive I worked on had a set of AA-sized NiCd batteries that would be connected to the voice-coil actuator on power-fail to force the heads to retract. It was crude but effective. Modern drives use a plated metallic medium. It is quite hard and quite smooth. This allows the heads to land and take-off from the surface of the disk many times without damage. It is why we don't worry much about head crashes anymore. Every time you power the disk up or down it experiences a "head-crash." Still, if the head remained in contact with the disk for a long time it would eventually damage the disk. Of perhaps greater consideration is temperature and cooling. In the case of convection (forced air) cooling, as air density decreases you need to move a greater volume of air to achieve the same heat transfer. This is why equipment designed for very high altitude operation is designed for conduction cooling. The iPod is designed to cool by conduction through its case. A laptop is not. A laptop computer at very high altitude may not be able to move enough air to keep its processor and/or disk drive cool enough to operate safely. > I wouldn't take my operating Ipod above 10K feet for any reason unless > I > was a real gambler (I am not). Turned off, it is fine to any > altitude. I think there is probably some leeway with the altitude but given that we don't know how much "headroom" Apple built into the iPod your words are prudent. But I don't think that the unit will fail at 10,001'. I don't even think it will fail at 12,500'. Mine didn't fail at 17,500. And if it did, I don't think it will be permanently damaged if you don't try to keep playing it. And as I said in my earlier message, your results may vary. > Your luck may vary, Seems I lucked out this time, eh? It would be interesting to find out who's drives they use and then find the original manufacturer's data on safe operation. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: 3-position switch
I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources (yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably) rotary switch. Thanks Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 07, 2004
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
In a message dated 8/7/04 11:26:51 AM Central Daylight Time, rd2(at)evenlink.com writes: Yes, it would. As an extension of this I was wondering: doesn't some military equipment contain hard drives; probably mil specs are more air density demanding; who makes these drives; also, the cabin is probably pressurized (but drives in mil installations should not rely on that).... More and more food fer thought. Good Morning All, Just a random thought-- Would it be at all practical to place these devices in some sort of pressurized container? A small box with a balloon attached should be able to keep it below a 10,000 pressure altitude fairly easily. If the aircraft has a supercharger, it would be easy to pressurize the box the same way magnetos are often pressurized. How much air exchange would need to take place for cooling, etc.? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 07, 2004
Subject: Re: 3-position switch
In a message dated 8/7/04 11:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time, rd2(at)evenlink.com writes: I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources (yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably) rotary switch. Thanks Rumen Good Morning Rumen, Electronics International sells a double pole rotary three position switch to use to switch between shunts for their loadmeter. Probably a lot more than what you need, but it is a robust switch. I don't care for the bulky connectors they use, but I can't see why you couldn't cut the supplied connectors off and use something less obtrusive. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 07, 2004
On Aug 7, 2004, at 12:48 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > Yes, it would. As an extension of this I was wondering: doesn't some > military equipment contain hard drives; probably mil specs are more > air > density demanding; who makes these drives; also, the cabin is > probably > pressurized (but drives in mil installations should not rely on > that).... > More and more food fer thought. > > > Good Morning All, > > Just a random thought-- > > Would it be at all practical to place these devices in some sort of > pressurized container? Should work just fine. > > A small box with a balloon attached should be able to keep it below a > 10,000 > pressure altitude fairly easily. A bicycle tire pump will work too. > If the aircraft has a supercharger, it would be easy to pressurize the > box > the same way magnetos are often pressurized. That seems like hard work. > How much air exchange would need to take place for cooling, etc.? If the box has enough surface area you don't need any airflow. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: 3-position switch
Thanks, Bob >Electronics International sells a double pole rotary three position switch >to use to switch between shunts for their loadmeter. Hmmm... will check this out, but I suspect massiveness if it's designed a shunt switch. Something similar to the switches of multimeters (but with only a few positions) might be appropriate. Usually such switches are designed to be reliable. Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com>
Subject: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 07, 2004
XM radio would be easier, IMO - Larry Bowen Larry(at)BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com [mailto:BobsV35B(at)aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:49 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod and altitude > > > > > Good Morning All, > > Just a random thought-- > > Would it be at all practical to place these devices in some sort of > pressurized container? > > A small box with a balloon attached should be able to keep it > below a 10,000 > pressure altitude fairly easily. > > If the aircraft has a supercharger, it would be easy to > pressurize the box > the same way magnetos are often pressurized. > > How much air exchange would need to take place for cooling, etc.? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 07, 2004
Subject: Re: 3-position switch
In a message dated 8/7/04 12:14:15 PM Central Daylight Time, rd2(at)evenlink.com writes: Hmmm... will check this out, but I suspect massiveness if it's designed a shunt switch. Something similar to the switches of multimeters (but with only a few positions) might be appropriate. Usually such switches are designed to be reliable. Rumen Actually, the switch itself is quite small. The shunts are external. It is about one half inch in diameter and maybe one half to three quarters of an inch long. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli(at)cox.net>
Subject: KX125
Date: Aug 07, 2004
I sent this once before but wasn't sure it got there. Does anyone happen to know how the KX 125 interfaces with the Flightcom 403 intercom? I am fairly clear on the 403 but not sure which pins of the KX 125 interfaces with it. I built the isolated ground system shown on the 403 schematic in order to take the CD player out put (which normally goes to speakers) to convert the 8 ohm to 600 ohm for head phone use (pins 1, 18, 19). But not being a educated electronics guy I'm unsure which pins on the King interfaces with pins 1, 17, 21, 8 on the 403! Because I'm not using any other remote heads, I think besides the antennas, and power, this will be the only interface. If anyone has the know how to complete this I would appreciate any help offered. Mickey Billings RV7 N445BH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: KX125
Date: Aug 07, 2004
Yes we received it before, but I can not help you Franz -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mickey Billings Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX125 I sent this once before but wasn't sure it got there. Does anyone happen to know how the KX 125 interfaces with the Flightcom 403 intercom? I am fairly clear on the 403 but not sure which pins of the KX 125 interfaces with it. I built the isolated ground system shown on the 403 schematic in order to take the CD player out put (which normally goes to speakers) to convert the 8 ohm to 600 ohm for head phone use (pins 1, 18, 19). But not being a educated electronics guy I'm unsure which pins on the King interfaces with pins 1, 17, 21, 8 on the 403! Because I'm not using any other remote heads, I think besides the antennas, and power, this will be the only interface. If anyone has the know how to complete this I would appreciate any help offered. Mickey Billings RV7 N445BH --- --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2004
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
bkuc1(at)tampabay.rr.com wrote: > > > More food for thought. Hard drives have to be sealed since the heads ride so close to the platter(s). >If there is an air issue with the hard drives that would mean that air has to enter and escape and with no filter, >any microscopic dust particle would crash the heads. A little more food for thought. Completely seal up a hard drive at sea level. Fly to 17500' and watch it deform and pop. My son's computer had a Seagate drive die just a few days ago and I took it apart to show him how it works. The top was an aluminum shell held on by a strip of aluminum tape. In the center left of what would be the top was a 1/8th inch hole that was covered on the outside by a plastic cover. I'm sure there was a filter under the black cover, and there is also a filter inside the disk that would capture any dust particle as it spun around inside the case. Pull a few HD apart. In each one you'll find some way for the air pressure to equalize. I don't think it is just that Brian got lucky. This is a complete guess, but I would think that the iPod would arrange the HD such that the platters spun vertically. The R/W heads would not be floating above the discs, but beside them. It doesn't have gravity contributing to a head crash in that case. My other guess is that head crashes can't happen with a tail wind. -- http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/ "Ignorance is mankinds normal state, alleviated by information and experience." Veeduber ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 07, 2004
Music lovers: Rather than pressurize the iPod, getting a solid state MP3 player makes more sense. I saw that 1 GB of compact flash memory was $169 at Best Buy recently, and prices will only drop. Of course, if you fly below 10,000 feet most of the time, this is not a consideration. Jim Foerster, J400, 80% done ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 08, 2004
On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:08 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > I don't think it is just that Brian got lucky. This is a complete > guess, but I would think that the iPod would arrange the HD such that > the platters spun vertically. The R/W heads would not be floating > above > the discs, but beside them. It doesn't have gravity contributing to a > head crash in that case. The heads are loaded by spring pressure which provides a force far greater than the force due to the weight of the head. Low-mass heads also reduces the chance of a head crash should the disk be exposed to shock or vibration. > My other guess is that head crashes can't happen with a tail wind. I am sure that you must be right. ernest-isa-geek.org? I like it! Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV8ter(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 08, 2004
Subject: MP3 vs iPod
what's the difference between the music systems? In a message dated 8/7/2004 11:06:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jmfpublic(at)comcast.net writes: Music lovers: Rather than pressurize the iPod, getting a solid state MP3 player makes more sense. I saw that 1 GB of compact flash memory was $169 at Best Buy recently, and prices will only drop. Of course, if you fly below 10,000 feet most of the time, this is not a consideration. Jim Foerster, J400, 80% done ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: Dan Brown <dan(at)familybrown.org>
Subject: Re: MP3 vs iPod
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 RV8ter(at)aol.com wrote: | what's the difference between the music systems? The iPod is an MP3 player, but it uses a hard drive to store the music, hence the concern about altitude and vibration and the rest. Jim was suggesting a solid-state MP3 player, which uses non-mechanical storage for the music--which, he correctly observes, avoids the problem entirely. Of course, a 40 GB solid-state player would be obscenely expensive... A 1 GB player would store around 15 hours of music; the 40 GB iPod would store (of course) 40 times that. - -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan(at)familybrown.org "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." ~ -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFBFhr1yQGUivXxtkERAn1lAJwOMSkKISdq+nnVC4ouTk5Z/adgDwCgijHM fMjmjxWTSrGxmcJMv/WIWGI=xCOM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
on juliet Hi Dennis The engine diagram seems awfully complicated with those 4 pole switches that don't seem to do very much. I note that one switch failure can kill both power sources to the engine whereas separate mechanically ganged switches might be more reliable and even cheaper. I plan to use the ecu to drive the oem relay to control the main fuel pump both for safety and to perhaps eliminate the extra fuel pump switch. Another thought might be to use a three position main/off/aux switch to eliminate the separate ignition and fuel pump switches. I assume you are planning an IFR machine. For a simple VFR machine I found that all I really had on the main bus was lights and the endurance bus was pointless for me as there was nothing of significance to put on it. Although it is unconventional and has not been condoned on this list, I moved the alternator supply to the other side of the battery contactor for a number of reasons including load dump concerns. If you ever lost your main hot bus and switched engine power to the aux hot bus do you have confidence that the same fault hasn't also killed the aux bus? (Both batteries discharged) I'd consider charging the aux battery through a diode so that a fault in the main system can't take out the aux system. Bob has convinced me that modern batteries are too reliable to bother just paralleling them so I'd probably charge the aux battery through a diode and use the aux battery contactor as a normally open crossfeed contactor (or lose it altogether for my VFR machine) if I were doing this type of architecture. Of course the low voltage warning should also give you lots of notice of a problem but if you rely on that then do you even need a second battery? Don't get me wrong - I went to two small alternators and two small batteries so I do agree with your two battery philosophy, it just doesn't seem to have gained you much the way it's wired. I am no expert on this stuff, just throwing out some comments for discussion. Ken EJ22 Glaeser, Dennis A wrote: > >Here are the diagrams mentioned in my original post: > >http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html ><http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html> > >Dennis Glaeser >glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com -or- dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> alternator
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1
alternator alternator >Don't get me wrong - I went to two small alternators and two small >batteries so I do agree with your two battery philosophy, ... How did you get two alternators on an EJ22? Do you have any photos? Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Low Audio Output
Date: Aug 08, 2004
Hi Guys- Thanks for the input (no pun intended). Given our normal operating envelopes, I wonder what bad thing would happen if we plugged the vent of a disc type music system. The normal delta P should be around 3.5 psi with a max around 7 psi, except of course for Bruce Bohannon... Given the size of the device, I doubt one could cause a catastrophic failure, although the system might vent out a seam anyway. I would think that this would be less significant than a head crash. Of course, the main stream audio designers are probably unaware of our market and have published specs that cover use in an airliner. They may well be good to a much higher altitude, especially if one were careful to use the unit with the disc vertical. Glen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Chris Krieg <rv6a(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: MP3 vs iPod
Date: Aug 08, 2004
yes/yes/yes, etc. It was designed for those purposes. It uses a large very buffer to give you about 10 minutes of skip protection. On Aug 8, 2004, at 5:42 AM, RV8ter(at)aol.com wrote: > > Can you jog with an ipod without it skipping/crashing/jumping etc? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
> >I and a few others are members of the 24v faction. Most on the list are >12v fans. I like 24v because it gives you all the power you need, a 70A >24v alternator is the equivalent of a 140A 12v one. > >Just one example, my entire panel (and it's quite sophisticated) draws >only 11A. My standby alternator puts out 20A, well within its capacity. >This eliminates the need to have an endurance (emergency) bus on the >airplane. The largest full-up system load I've calculated for a day/nite vfr/ifr airplane with on electronic ignition and one mag is 27A at 14v for a total power requirement of 378 watts. If one installs a 14v, 40A machine then this leaves 182 watts (or 13A) of headroom for charging a battery. Assuming a badly discharged 17 a.h. battery, you get it mostly recharged in 80 minutes although if you have only one engine driven power source . . . it's a bad idea to lauch into ifr with a discharged battery. Assuming reasonable maintenance and your engine starts right up, 99% of your launches into ifr would be without delay due to battery issues. Unless one plans future expansion of the load requirements for things like electric heat, then large alternators at any bus voltage is simply added cost and weight with no return on investment. I helped a builder put a 100A, 24v system in a LongEz about 15 years ago . . . he NEEDED electric heat in the cabin. He was day/night vfr with a flight systems load of less than 300 watts. This left 2100 watts after the battery was charged for toe and seat warmers. He reported good utility for extended flights at altitude in the summer but even 2100 watts was inadequate for comfort in the winter time for the same flights. This in spite of adding about 10 extra pounds on the tail, putting a bubble in the cowl to clear the alternator and brackets and carrying an extra ordinarily heavy battery in nose to ballast the alternator installation. I think his airplane empty weight went up something on the order of 25 pounds over what could have been installed with a 40A, 14v system and 17 a.h. battery. I still get e-mails from builders assembling day/night vfr machines with very light system loads . . . some as low as 200 watts who are fixated on having a "big" alternator. Unless you have some well considered place to use that extra energy, then the costs, weight penalties and limited usage of cheap automotive hardware doesn't get you anything . . . it's sort of like putting a 10 hp engine on a 21" push style lawn mower. You may like the idea of being able to plow though 4' weeds without breaking a sweat but if you never do it, what's the gain? >There must be a reason why every manufacturer of certified airplanes has >moved to 24v systems. Commonality of parts. For decades, the smaller aircraft at Cessna and others used 14v in bottom of the line ships and 28v in larger aircraft. There was some perverted notion that 28v was a much superior performing system in most regards. Wire weight savings was touted but there is so little wire in a single engine aircraft that smaller wires might account for a two or three pounds of savings. Alternators and starter motors were no lighter . . . although you could get twice the power out of the same size alternator at 24v. Electrically heated props and windshield de-ice patches were the biggest considered system drivers to install 28v. 24 volt flooded batteries of that era were more fragile than their 12 volt cousins. You could store the same energy in a 12 AH, 24 volt battery as a 24 AH 12 volt battery of the same weight and size. However, the 12 AH cells did not enjoy engine cranking currents and recharge currents 1/2 that of 14 volt systems. Their service life due to ordinary operating conditions was poorer than for the more robust, 24 AH cells of the 12 volt battery. As the numbers of production airplanes was going down, it became expedient to "upgrade" the lighter ships at Cessna to 28v so that the C-210 and C-150 could share the same alternator, battery, lights, etc. This was a manufacturing and purchasing issue, not a performance issue. >Hello Bob, > >In Oshkosh I was witnessing a heated debate on the above topic. 12V >people was arguing availability of cheap components, and the 24V guys >talked about weight savings and electric ignition functionality at >engine start. > >Any thoughts about the subject from the list?? There are some cranking issues with FADEC and some electronic ignition systems wherein the manufacturers of such systems have NOT done the homework to produce a product that lives well in the real world of airplanes. It may be that some of these products are less problematic when installed in a 24 v aircraft. But again, folks are fond of focusing on one aspect of a difference between 12/24 volts and using that as justification for a choice that has ramifications far beyond a few pounds weight savings and/or accommodation of poorly designed hardware. The automotive world is going to 42 volts in the near future but this is due to the electrification of many engine driven systems for past designs. They're anticipating air conditioner compressors, water pumps, etc having built in, brushless dc motors. Braking systems may become fully electrical/electronic with force and smarts built into the hubs of individual wheels, etc. 42 volts is MUCH harder to switch mechanically. I anticipate that most switching will be handled with arcless, solid state components. I have a consulting customer considering electric de-ice on a new certified ship. He's anticipating using products from North Coast Technologies. They have a Thermawing de-icing system you can check out at: http://airplanedeice.com/thermaWing/ Their present offering runs off a custom 60v, 100A alternator to produce enough total energy to handle both flight surfaces and propeller de-ice energy requirements. I spoke with these folks at OSH and will be working with them to develop a still larger system that runs from a 208 volt, three-phase, wild frequency AC system produced by 12 to 18 kilowatt alternators on each engine. Again, we see a valid driver for consideration of higher voltage systems . . . mostly to produce HEAT. In a nutshell folks, be cautious about making the 28/14 volt decision based on popular myth, and hangar legends. In particular, be wary of sage ol' pilots and mechanics who criticize your decision when their own opinions are not well founded in the physics and economics of small aircraft fabrication and ownership. Just because it made LOTS of sense on a B-29, B-52 and B-707 doesn't mean it makes sense on your RV-7. There ARE some really good reasons to up your system voltage and take the economic and design hits for doing it. However, I'll suggest that only a small number of OBAM aircraft under construction fall in this category. Aside from systems that NEED the flight operations energy offered by 24 volt systems driving electric heat and/or accommodating lousy engine accessories, I'll have to suggest the overall performance and cost of ownership for 14 is better than for 28 volt. So, if you're leaning toward 28v for some reason, lets talk about it here on the list. Make your decision based on every applicable simple-idea we can identify that's applicable to your task. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: Tach transducer
Date: Aug 08, 2004
I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits. QUESTION Anyone know of a transducer that will fit in the Lycoming and give me a signal? An Aircraft Spruce part number would be ideal. (I have asked Grand Rapids this question twice now over 10 days but they seem to be having an extended lunch break!) I prefer the idea of using the port, since I would only have to buy a cover plate otherwise and switch signal source when checking the mags. Thanks, Steve RV9a #90360 --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: MP3 vs iPod
Date: Aug 08, 2004
RV8tor asked: "I want to use an XM radio. How do you typically wire up an intercom to be able to switch between two different input sources when I typically only see one input for music? I don't want to be plugging and unplugging different music inputs during flight if I can help it." You will need to wire in a single pole, double throw switch to select one of the two inputs to your audio panel. Or, you might be able to just connect both the MP3 player and the XM radio to the audio input of the intercom through 600 ohm resistors in series with the output of each. Then, you use the power switch on the MP3 player to turn it on and off, and the mute or power switch on the XM radio to do the same. "Flying aside, on terra firme, can the ipod handle the same day to day abuse the solid state MP3 can? Can you jog with an ipod without it skipping/crashing/jumping etc?" I have no personal experience with iPod, but I believe that you can jog with it. The solid state MP3 player is much more robust, however. "Does this mean MP3 players can be packaged in much physically smaller & lighter packages?" Yes. Look up reviews, with pictures, in PC Magazine etc. Jim Foerster, J400... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 3-position switch
> > >In a message dated 8/7/04 11:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time, >rd2(at)evenlink.com writes: > >I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an >inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all >positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources >(yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably) >rotary switch. >Thanks >Rumen That's a tall order of mutually exclusive requirements. If your heart is set on rotary switching, I'd recommend a Grayhill, totally enclosed switch like the 56 series which can be found at Digikey's catalog page http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1044.pdf See 56D36-01-2-AJN in lower left corner of page. My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer, three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole, three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the 'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf It's in the top group of switches, lower right hand corner of top box. There's no such thing as a "certified switch" . . . both of these switches have been used at one time or another on certified aircraft. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: "Charles E. Brame" <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Wig Wag help
I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch -Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either of the switch "On" positions. At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher shut? I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working? Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 08, 2004
Subject: Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
In a message dated 08/08/2004 11:35:13 AM Central Standard Time, bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes: Wire weight savings was touted but there is so little wire in a single engine aircraft that smaller wires might account for a two or three pounds of savings. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another consideration: well over half the wire in my RV is 22 ga., the smallest wire recommended for routine wiring tasks due to mechanical considerations. Even if 24v would ALLOW smaller wire, I don't think I'd use it for this reason alone, therefore weight savings is much less a consideration, even with the fat wires going on a 24v diet........... From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2004
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: intermittent ignition on 912S
For the first time I noticed an intermittent ignition issue with my Rotax 912S. The right ignition controller cut out several times when doing a "mag" check (on the ground of course). I couldn't get it to duplicate again since though. I carefully checked my wiring and also used an ohmmeter to check continuity to see if there was a short causing that side to cut out. No joy. Perhaps a problem with the starter switch (ACS unit)? Anybody else with experience with this ignition and possibly some suggestions? Thanks folks! Joa "who just *hates* intermittent electrical issues" --------------------------------- Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 08, 2004
Subject: Re: Tach transducer
In a message dated 08/08/2004 11:43:07 AM Central Standard Time, SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu writes: I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm using an EIS monitor (4000) on my RV using the mag lead for tach- seems awful accurate and at mag check it's easy to hear the relative difference between engine speed with either mag off. I did it this way for simplicity and because I'm cheap! 8-) Oh by the way- GREAT instrument- glad I got one. Just me opining- and you've heard about the relative value of opining and openings, I'm sure... Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help
Date: Aug 08, 2004
First thing comes to mind is a problem I had wiring up my 6 as per Bob's manual: the switches' terminals didn't necessarily work as per the drawings. Had to use an ohmmeter, a good, hard look at how the switch was supposed to work in the drawings, and I think I scratched out about half my remaining hair. It all worked out in the end. Bob does alude to the fact that some of the switches he supplies have the terminals numbered differently than what he spec'd in the drawings. Scott in VAncouver RV-6 rebuilding after noseover ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles E. Brame" <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig Wag help > > I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch > -Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but > the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either > of the switch "On" positions. > > At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light > output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher > shut? > > I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low > voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Wayne Berg" <wfberg(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Tach transducer
Date: Aug 08, 2004
Try Van's, they have one for their tach ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Sampson<mailto:SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:44 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tach transducer I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits. QUESTION Anyone know of a transducer that will fit in the Lycoming and give me a signal? An Aircraft Spruce part number would be ideal. (I have asked Grand Rapids this question twice now over 10 days but they seem to be having an extended lunch break!) I prefer the idea of using the port, since I would only have to buy a cover plate otherwise and switch signal source when checking the mags. Thanks, Steve RV9a #90360 --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: 3-position switch
Thank you, Bob. One of these should do the job. BTW, > There's no such thing as a "certified switch" . . . both of these switches have been used at one time or another on certified aircraft. < what log book entry should one make to keep the faa guys happy, if such switch is installed in certified aircraft ? The switch actually replaces the original 2 position toggle. (When bought from digikey, it comes with invoice only and no tso.) Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Robert L. Nuckolls, III; Date: 01:42 PM > > >In a message dated 8/7/04 11:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time, >rd2(at)evenlink.com writes: > >I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an >inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all >positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources >(yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably) >rotary switch. >Thanks >Rumen That's a tall order of mutually exclusive requirements. If your heart is set on rotary switching, I'd recommend a Grayhill, totally enclosed switch like the 56 series which can be found at Digikey's catalog page http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1044.pdf See 56D36-01-2-AJN in lower left corner of page. My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer, three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole, three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the 'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf It's in the top group of switches, lower right hand corner of top box. There's no such thing as a "certified switch" . . . both of these switches have been used at one time or another on certified aircraft. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Subject: Re: Tach transducer
From: Kent Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Van's Aircraft sells a nice little tach transducer. It won't fit if you're using a B&C oil filter adapter, though. It mounts on the tach drive on the Lycoming. --Kent > From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> > Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:44:46 +0100 > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tach transducer > > > > I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in > one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into > the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits. > > QUESTION Anyone know of a transducer that will fit in the Lycoming and give > me a signal? An Aircraft Spruce part number would be ideal. > > (I have asked Grand Rapids this question twice now over 10 days but they > seem to be having an extended lunch break!) I prefer the idea of using the > port, since I would only have to buy a cover plate otherwise and switch > signal source when checking the mags. > > Thanks, Steve > > RV9a #90360 > > --- > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to remove the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and decided there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. Can you direct me to such a device? Many thanks Neil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
In a message dated 8/9/2004 10:41:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, harvey4(at)earthlink.net writes: Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to remove the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and decided there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. Can you direct me to such a device? Many thanks Neil Hello Neil, I have used many home brewed jigs over the years to hold parts on the "operating" table so that I can do surgery on them. A common solution is to get some wooden spring loaded clothes pins and cut the nose of them off flush so that they have a blunt nose. Take them apart and drill a hole in one side so you can screw it down to a small slab of wood. Reassemble the clothes pins and you have a handy hold for small stuff. I have a board with four of them lined up with a few inches space between them. I can clip four wires across the bench for tinning at once. Try screwing a mate D-sub to a wooden board with the mating male/female pins side up. Mate the male/female plug you are working on to it and you will have the rascal held down good for soldering. Don't forget to be very clean and try some liquid flux while you are at it. I wrote a posting about the advantages to using liquid flux for this exact purpose a few weeks back. Don't burn your fingers! John P. Marzluf Columbus, Ohio Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Subject: Re: intermittent ignition on 912S
In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:14:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com writes: For the first time I noticed an intermittent ignition issue with my Rotax 912S. The right ignition controller cut out several times when doing a "mag" check (on the ground of course). I couldn't get it to duplicate again since though. I carefully checked my wiring and also used an ohmmeter to check continuity to see if there was a short causing that side to cut out. No joy. Perhaps a problem with the starter switch (ACS unit)? Anybody else with experience with this ignition and possibly some suggestions? Thanks folks! Joa "who just *hates* intermittent electrical issues" Joa, Everybody hates intermittent electrical issues! The most common problem found with the 912's ignition modules has been "broken" not "shorted" wires coming immediately out of the ignition modules. They are very fine wires and will not tolerate the relative motion of the harness shaking on the engine without being tied down VERY securely. Many builders have located the modules off the engine. Carefully check out the wires and expect to find a break near the module's case. Pull the wire jackets gently to see if you get some stretch. If so, the wire is broken inside! John P. Marzluf Columbus, Ohio Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Malcolm Thomson" <mdthomson(at)attglobal.net>
Subject: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Date: Aug 09, 2004
If you use quality crimp pins, I believe it is faster and provides a high quality connection. Also, it is easy to push pins out of the connector if it becomes necessary to change anything. I also just wired two of the Infinity Stick grips, the multiconductor cable goes down through the stick. Only way to remove the grip now is to push the DB25 pins out of the connector. If they were soldered, you would have to desolder the pins and start over. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil Clayton Subject: AeroElectric-List: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector --> Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to remove the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and decided there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. Can you direct me to such a device? Many thanks Neil == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Wire strippers redux
A few days ago, the topic of wire strippers circulated around the list again. I did a short illustrated article on this topic a couple years ago. I've updated this article with new information and pictures. I'll encourage interested individuals to check it out at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help
> > >First thing comes to mind is a problem I had wiring up my 6 as per Bob's >manual: the switches' terminals didn't necessarily work as per the drawings. >Had to use an ohmmeter, a good, hard look at how the switch was supposed to >work in the drawings, and I think I scratched out about half my remaining >hair. >It all worked out in the end. >Bob does alude to the fact that some of the switches he supplies have the >terminals numbered differently than what he spec'd in the drawings. >Scott in VAncouver >RV-6 Here's a link to the data sheet that speaks to vairability in terminal numbering between various brands of switches. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
>In a message dated 08/08/2004 11:35:13 AM Central Standard Time, >bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes: > Wire weight savings was touted but there is so little wire > in a single engine aircraft that smaller wires might account for > a two or three pounds of savings. >Another consideration: well over half the wire in my RV is 22 ga., the >smallest wire recommended for routine wiring tasks due to mechanical >considerations. Even if 24v would ALLOW smaller wire, I don't think I'd >use it for this >reason alone, therefore weight savings is much less a consideration, even >with >the fat wires going on a 24v diet........... Exactly! The biggest weight savings comes from possible downsizing of fat wires. Problem is that the biggest driver for fatwire selection is cranking currents. If 24 volt starters would draw exactly 1/2 the current of 12 v starters, then one might be able to rear-mount some batteries in an RV or wire a nose mounted battery in a canard pusher with 4 AWG wire and not compromise performance. My experience suggests that 24 volt starters are not that much lower in current draw. If one sorts through all the wiring requirements through filters of good practice and real historical numbers, I can find no compelling reasons to jump on the 24 volt wagon for small aircraft. I was told that the B-52 had over 500 miles of wire in it. Many runs were 20-50 feet in length or more. To be sure, weight savings for 24v on the order of hundreds of pounds could be realized making significant changes in payload and range capabilities. But when your TOTAL wire bundle weighs less than 10 pounds, you could only save 9.5 pounds total by going to say, a 500 volt system . . . This example illustrates how focus on weight savings is absurdly overshadowed by technical and economic issues associated with increasing system voltage. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Ken, I'm no expert either, that's why I'm looking for input such as yours! My degree is Aerospace Engineering, so I know enough EE to just be dangerous ;-) I agree with you that the 4 pole engine bus master is both expensive and a single point of failure, and another is the 3 position fuel pump selector switch. The engine electrical design is from the Eggenfeller Subaru installation manual (that's the E-Subaru I'm talking about - not an EJ22 - sorry for any confusion). (see: http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm <http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm> for the gory details if you're interested). I'm not familiar with the mechanically ganged switches you mention - where can I find out more about them? The fuel pump setup in their design has an auto-failover feature which is nice but the extra switch is not. I haven't thought about relays (yet), I just modified their design to not use the EXPBUS, which they recommend. I do plan on an IFR machine. So, regarding the Aux battery - if I understand correctly, you suggest a direct connect from the Alt to the Aux battery through a diode - is that correct? The Aux Master would then be either eliminated (aux battery used only to power the endurance bus when required) or left in and used to power the main bus (is this what you mean by a crossfeed contactor?). I'll probably keep the contactor, just to have the capability to run the main bus from the Aux Bat if I want to. I did wonder about just having the 2 batteries in parallel - I didn't think about a failure which would drain them (but that possibility exists - probably what was bothering me). I was wondering if turning off the Aux master (especially prior to entering IMC) would be a good idea just to make it a truly reserve battery, but it would also remove it from being charged. The diode solves that! Obviously this is a work in progress. I'm not building yet, so I have the luxury of playing until I get it "right" (for me at least) on paper. I'll be updating my diagram and reposting it one of these days. I appreciate your inputs!. Dennis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Bob, Weight savings from wire size in a 24v system is not the issue. Many years ago when I had my C177-RG's it was quite common when on final at night with all the lights and radios on, to experience brown outs when the gear was lowered. This was a 12v airplane and was back in the days of power hungry radios. Cessna went to 24v systems a few years later. The issue, in my opinion, is POWER. Now, I realize that you're a strong proponent of the 12v system, I'm not. There are many automotive components that are available in 24v flavors. Most large trucks use 24v. Oh well, I guess we can agree to disagree. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. >In a message dated 08/08/2004 11:35:13 AM Central Standard Time, >bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes: > Wire weight savings was touted but there is so little wire > in a single engine aircraft that smaller wires might account for > a two or three pounds of savings. >Another consideration: well over half the wire in my RV is 22 ga., the >smallest wire recommended for routine wiring tasks due to mechanical >considerations. Even if 24v would ALLOW smaller wire, I don't think I'd >use it for this >reason alone, therefore weight savings is much less a consideration, even >with >the fat wires going on a 24v diet........... Exactly! The biggest weight savings comes from possible downsizing of fat wires. Problem is that the biggest driver for fatwire selection is cranking currents. If 24 volt starters would draw exactly 1/2 the current of 12 v starters, then one might be able to rear-mount some batteries in an RV or wire a nose mounted battery in a canard pusher with 4 AWG wire and not compromise performance. My experience suggests that 24 volt starters are not that much lower in current draw. If one sorts through all the wiring requirements through filters of good practice and real historical numbers, I can find no compelling reasons to jump on the 24 volt wagon for small aircraft. I was told that the B-52 had over 500 miles of wire in it. Many runs were 20-50 feet in length or more. To be sure, weight savings for 24v on the order of hundreds of pounds could be realized making significant changes in payload and range capabilities. But when your TOTAL wire bundle weighs less than 10 pounds, you could only save 9.5 pounds total by going to say, a 500 volt system . . . This example illustrates how focus on weight savings is absurdly overshadowed by technical and economic issues associated with increasing system voltage. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Subject: Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
In a message dated 8/9/04 11:24:48 AM Central Daylight Time, Bruce(at)glasair.org writes: The issue, in my opinion, is POWER. Good Morning Bruce, I have also become a proponent of the twenty-eight volt system. I have a B&C standby alternator on my airplane. My full, everything on except pitot heat and landing lights, night time loads are around twenty amps. (For What It's Worth, the strobes, beacons and running lights account for almost half of that load.) My B&C can carry that load without even having to resort to a load reduction regime. When I first bought the airplane, I considered the twenty-eight volt system to be a negative. I now consider it to be a strong plus. On top of that, my gear retracts in less than four seconds. Twelve volt versions of the same gear take from eight to twelve seconds to get tucked away. Not really important, but way cool! Color me VERY happy with twenty-eight volts. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: Phil Birkelbach <phil(at)petrasoft.net>
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
I agree. I used a 25 Pin D-Dub for my infinity stick and it workes like a champ. And I'll be able to get the grip off if I ever need to. You'll most likely need the pin crimping tool for something else like radio or transponder anyway. If you still want to use the soldered connectors go to Radio Smack ("You've got questions, We've got dumb looks") and get one of those little helping hand jigs that have the articulating aligator clips. Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Panel http://www.myrv7.com Malcolm Thomson wrote: > >If you use quality crimp pins, I believe it is faster and provides a >high quality connection. Also, it is easy to push pins out of the >connector if it becomes necessary to change anything. I also just wired >two of the Infinity Stick grips, the multiconductor cable goes down >through the stick. Only way to remove the grip now is to push the DB25 >pins out of the connector. If they were soldered, you would have to >desolder the pins and start over. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil >Clayton >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector > > >--> > >Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector >onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to >remove >the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and >decided >there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. Can >you direct me to such a device? > >Many thanks > >Neil > > >== >direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. >== >== >== > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: RE: iPod and altitude
Date: Aug 09, 2004
On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:05 PM, James Foerster wrote: > > > Music lovers: > > Rather than pressurize the iPod, getting a solid state MP3 player > makes more sense. I saw that 1 GB of compact flash memory was $169 at > Best Buy recently, and prices will only drop. The problem with the flash-based MP3 players is that they won't hold all your music. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli(at)cox.net>
Subject: Audio
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Does anyone know the difference between audio high and audio low on the radio pin output? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
> >Bob, > >Weight savings from wire size in a 24v system is not the issue. > >Many years ago when I had my C177-RG's it was quite common when on final >at night with all the lights and radios on, to experience brown outs >when the gear was lowered. This was a 12v airplane and was back in the >days of power hungry radios. Cessna went to 24v systems a few years >later. The issue, in my opinion, is POWER. > >Now, I realize that you're a strong proponent of the 12v system, I'm >not. There are many automotive components that are available in 24v >flavors. Most large trucks use 24v. Oh well, I guess we can agree to >disagree. Your example is anecdotal. No DATA. Your observations about brownout cannot be argued with, what's missing is: What are the simple-ideas, the physics surrounding the observed phenomenon? If you'd let me rewire that airplane with one of the Z-figure architectures using MODERN RG batteries, I suspect I could make the observed phenomenon go away and still have the 12 volt system. To make a blanket assumption that a 24 volt upgrade was critical to improved performance. It may have been the "simple" solution for the designers . . . things may have got better with the "upgrade" . . . without changing the architecture or taking time to truly understand the benefits of alternative architectures combined with much improved, modern components. It's the response we've come to expect from the certified world. I can almost always sell some sort of band-aid to an existing system. It's nigh well impossible to really make a quantum leap change to bring a system into the 21st century. One has to make decisions based on what they know and understand. I'm not suggesting that 24 volt systems are "bad", I've cited numerous occasions wherein I've enthusiastically supported and aided in the design of such systems. I am suggesting that much of what passes for data handed down from our past experience in the Jurasic Park of aviation is incomplete or in error. Your 24 volt system has a high order probability of performing just fine and I would not suggest you change it out in favor of a 12 volt system. I'm only suggesting that folks in the decision- making mode take the time to gather and understand all the data. If anecdotal info is sought, get it from other RV or Cozy builders, NOT from C-172 or PA-28 drivers. Bob . . . "One can know a great deal about something and still understand nothing." C.F. Kettering --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
Date: Aug 09, 2004
OK, I still like your ideas about other things, just not this one. My airplane, and it's electrical system, are all anecdotal. It's sort of like horse power, you never have enough. It's a personal thing. Now, where did I put that 500VAC inverter? Bruce www.glasair.org GIII- 28v -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. Your example is anecdotal. No DATA. Your observations about brownout cannot be argued with, what's missing is: What are the simple-ideas, the physics surrounding the observed phenomenon? If you'd let me rewire that airplane with one of the Z-figure architectures using MODERN RG batteries, I suspect I could make the observed phenomenon go away and still have the 12 volt system. To make a blanket assumption that a 24 volt upgrade was critical to improved performance. It may have been the "simple" solution for the designers . . . things may have got better with the "upgrade" . . . without changing the architecture or taking time to truly understand the benefits of alternative architectures combined with much improved, modern components. It's the response we've come to expect from the certified world. I can almost always sell some sort of band-aid to an existing system. It's nigh well impossible to really make a quantum leap change to bring a system into the 21st century. One has to make decisions based on what they know and understand. I'm not suggesting that 24 volt systems are "bad", I've cited numerous occasions wherein I've enthusiastically supported and aided in the design of such systems. I am suggesting that much of what passes for data handed down from our past experience in the Jurasic Park of aviation is incomplete or in error. Your 24 volt system has a high order probability of performing just fine and I would not suggest you change it out in favor of a 12 volt system. I'm only suggesting that folks in the decision- making mode take the time to gather and understand all the data. If anecdotal info is sought, get it from other RV or Cozy builders, NOT from C-172 or PA-28 drivers. Bob . . . "One can know a great deal about something and still understand nothing." C.F. Kettering ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Audio
Mickey Billings wrote: > >Does anyone know the difference between audio high and audio low on the >radio pin output? > Typically, high=signal, low=signal return (ground, in common terminology). Sometimes separate grounds for separate signals are for convenience, but usually it's to minimize noise (ground loops, etc.). Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Audio
Date: Aug 09, 2004
Thanks Charlie that makes sense! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio > > Mickey Billings wrote: > > > > >Does anyone know the difference between audio high and audio low on the > >radio pin output? > > > > Typically, high=signal, low=signal return (ground, in common > terminology). Sometimes separate grounds for separate signals are for > convenience, but usually it's to minimize noise (ground loops, etc.). > > Charlie > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
Date: Aug 09, 2004
I started to play with isolating the Aux Battery with a diode and making the contactor a crossover contactor (if I'm using that term correctly) per Ken's suggestion. The problem with that scheme is that the Aux battery is now not available to help with starting the engine, since it is no longer in parallel. I also remembered that there is an article on the Aeroelectric site which discussed this, and I found it: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_iso2.pdf <http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_iso2.pdf> I knew that I basically lifted my design from one of Bob's diagrams, and this article has it. His Figure 2 is essentially the design I copied - without the Aux Battery Management Module shown in that article (I went with the manual option). The failure mode that Ken mentions which could drain both batteries still concerns me, although the ABMM in Bob's design would immediately isolate the Aux battery if such a drain occurred (I think). I went with the manual mode because I do have LV warning. My question is: what kind of failure could occur which would NOT trigger the LV warning, but could drain the batteries? Dennis > -----Original Message----- > From: Glaeser, Dennis A > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:56 AM > To: 'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com' > Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator > > Ken, > > I'm no expert either, that's why I'm looking for input such as yours! My > degree is Aerospace Engineering, so I know enough EE to just be dangerous > ;-) > > I agree with you that the 4 pole engine bus master is both expensive and a > single point of failure, and another is the 3 position fuel pump selector > switch. The engine electrical design is from the Eggenfeller Subaru > installation manual (that's the E-Subaru I'm talking about - not an EJ22 - > sorry for any confusion). (see: http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm > <http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm> for the gory details if > you're interested). I'm not familiar with the mechanically ganged > switches you mention - where can I find out more about them? The fuel > pump setup in their design has an auto-failover feature which is nice but > the extra switch is not. I haven't thought about relays (yet), I just > modified their design to not use the EXPBUS, which they recommend. > > I do plan on an IFR machine. So, regarding the Aux battery - if I > understand correctly, you suggest a direct connect from the Alt to the Aux > battery through a diode - is that correct? The Aux Master would then be > either eliminated (aux battery used only to power the endurance bus when > required) or left in and used to power the main bus (is this what you mean > by a crossfeed contactor?). I'll probably keep the contactor, just to > have the capability to run the main bus from the Aux Bat if I want to. I > did wonder about just having the 2 batteries in parallel - I didn't think > about a failure which would drain them (but that possibility exists - > probably what was bothering me). I was wondering if turning off the Aux > master (especially prior to entering IMC) would be a good idea just to > make it a truly reserve battery, but it would also remove it from being > charged. The diode solves that! > > Obviously this is a work in progress. I'm not building yet, so I have the > luxury of playing until I get it "right" (for me at least) on paper. I'll > be updating my diagram and reposting it one of these days. I appreciate > your inputs!. > > Dennis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
on juliet Hi Dennis comments are embedded below. Ken Glaeser, Dennis A wrote: > >Ken, > >I'm no expert either, that's why I'm looking for input such as yours! My >degree is Aerospace Engineering, so I know enough EE to just be dangerous >;-) > >I agree with you that the 4 pole engine bus master is both expensive and a >single point of failure, and another is the 3 position fuel pump selector >switch. The engine electrical design is from the Eggenfeller Subaru >installation manual (that's the E-Subaru I'm talking about - not an EJ22 - >sorry for any confusion). (see: http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm ><http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm> for the gory details if you're >interested). > Since Egenfellner uses the Subaru computer, that makes it a Subaru regardless of what they call it in my mind so I think we are talking about the same thing pretty much. > I'm not familiar with the mechanically ganged switches you >mention - where can I find out more about them? The fuel pump setup in >their design has an auto-failover feature which is nice but the extra switch >is not. I haven't thought about relays (yet), I just modified their design >to not use the EXPBUS, which they recommend. > > As far as mechanically ganged switches, my plan was to just line up some toggle switches side by side about an inch apart. Then drill some holes 1" apart in a 1/8" x 1/2" bar of aluminum. Place the aluminum bar over the toggles so that the toggles protrude into the holes and then put a hinge on each end of the aluminum bar so that moving the aluminum bar moves all the switch toggles together.( My application is slightly more complicated in that some of the holes are slots so that some of the toggles can be moved in one direction without moving the bar) However when the bar is moved up or down all the switches will be positioned where I want them. There are some pricey Honeywell switches made from microswitches stacked side by side and actuated by one toggle but I kind of like completely separate switches with no common parts for this application. >I do plan on an IFR machine. So, regarding the Aux battery - if I understand >correctly, you suggest a direct connect from the Alt to the Aux battery >through a diode - is that correct? > Well not quite. In most cases you don't want to run the alternator without a two way connection (no diodes) to a battery. I decided not to put a battery contactor between my main alternator and my battery but let's ignore that for now - at least until Paul M. presents his research on that. > The Aux Master would then be either >eliminated (aux battery used only to power the endurance bus when required) >or left in and used to power the main bus (is this what you mean by a >crossfeed contactor?). I'll probably keep the contactor, just to have the >capability to run the main bus from the Aux Bat if I want to. I did wonder >about just having the 2 batteries in parallel - I didn't think about a >failure which would drain them (but that possibility exists - probably what >was bothering me). I was wondering if turning off the Aux master >(especially prior to entering IMC) would be a good idea just to make it a >truly reserve battery, but it would also remove it from being charged. The >diode solves that! > > Yes I think that might be the way to go. I'm not familiar with it but isn't Bob's Aux battery management module designed to add a second battery and do pretty much what you want? Anyway Bob's Z-30 keeps the contactors pretty much as per your diagram. And elsewhere he shows how to wire the start switch to automatically close the contactor during engine cranking. So yes I'm suggesting that you leave the aux battery contactor open except for engine starting then but bypass it with one of the 25 amp diode blocks so that it can always accept a charge. (Or maybe use one of Eric's shotky diodes for an even lower voltage drop.) Wired like that I'd call it a crossfeed contactor instead of an aux battery contactor but an apple is an apple no matter what we call it ;) >Obviously this is a work in progress. I'm not building yet, so I have the >luxury of playing until I get it "right" (for me at least) on paper. I'll >be updating my diagram and reposting it one of these days. I appreciate >your inputs!. > >Dennis > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1
alternator on juliet Glaeser, Dennis A wrote: > >I started to play with isolating the Aux Battery with a diode and making the >contactor a crossover contactor (if I'm using that term correctly) per Ken's >suggestion. The problem with that scheme is that the Aux battery is now not >available to help with starting the engine, since it is no longer in >parallel. I also remembered that there is an article on the Aeroelectric >site which discussed this, and I found it: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_iso2.pdf ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_iso2.pdf> I knew that I >basically lifted my design from one of Bob's diagrams, and this article has >it. His Figure 2 is essentially the design I copied - without the Aux >Battery Management Module shown in that article (I went with the manual >option). The failure mode that Ken mentions which could drain both >batteries still concerns me, although the ABMM in Bob's design would >immediately isolate the Aux battery if such a drain occurred (I think). I >went with the manual mode because I do have LV warning. My question is: >what kind of failure could occur which would NOT trigger the LV warning, but >could drain the batteries? > > Dennis > > Probably none except a failure of the LV warning itself? Or maybe the pilot not noticing the LV warning? The combination of a LV warning and occasionally glancing at a voltmeter should be pretty reliable I'd think. Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2004
From: Jim and Lucy <jpollard(at)mnsi.net>
Subject: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System.
>Most large trucks use 24v I think the reason for this in trucks and other big diesels is for the starter. 12v just does not seem to be good enough when these big engines get to be a certain size. Even with a pair of giant batteries. They used air starters for a while probably still do on some things. A three or five hundred horse diesel at 18 - 1 compression ratio takes a lot of torque to get it up to speed. One machine we have uses 12 volts for everything but the starter. Its got a series parallel contactor for the starter circuit. It was alot of expense and complication to build it like that but there was no starter available at 12 volts to start this machine. Starter weighs about 80 lbs. Jim Pollard ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Microair transponder problem
Date: Aug 10, 2004
All, I hope this is not too far off topic.... I had a very stringent pitot/static/transponder checkout performed this last weekend. The EFIS-Lite passed with flying colors, as did all my plumbing. However, my brand new out of the box Microair T2000SFL plain flat FAILED the tests. It had good power, stable and clear frequency and signal, but would only respond to <50% of the looped interrogations. The data coming back from the unit was good only every .5 to 1 second, randomly. Not enough good data to really determine pulse width, and other specifics. We checked all the standard stuff - voltage, antenna, BNC connectors, coax, correct 5.5" diameter ground plane, possible interference, etc. All good. Anyone else having the same problems and how was it solved? I'm grounded from first flight until this gets resolved. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Neil, Go to the avionics wiring section of CompUSA and get a computer cable with the correct number of pins and male/female connectors. Cut the cable in half, use one end for the stick and the other to connect to your system Be careful, on some cables, not all the pins are wired. The small wires (usually 26 AWG) are just right for connecting to the stick switches. Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying Neil Clayton wrote: > > Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector > onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to remove > the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and decided > there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. > Can you direct me to such a device? > > Many thanks > > Neil > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Nice solution, Richard. How do the small wires in the computer cable do with the large currents for the airbrake, trim, etc? Perhaps you don't have those items wired to your stick? Thx Neil At 04:45 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: > > >Neil, > >Go to the avionics wiring section of CompUSA and get a computer cable with the >correct number of pins and male/female connectors. Cut the cable in half, use >one end for the stick and the other to connect to your system > >Be careful, on some cables, not all the pins are wired. The small wires >(usually >26 AWG) are just right for connecting to the stick switches. > >Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Richard, can you point me to the URL of these prewired connectors? Thanks Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Richard V. Reynolds; Date: 04:45 AM Neil, Go to the avionics wiring section of CompUSA and get a computer cable with the correct number of pins and male/female connectors. Cut the cable in half, use one end for the stick and the other to connect to your system Be careful, on some cables, not all the pins are wired. The small wires (usually 26 AWG) are just right for connecting to the stick switches. Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying ......................... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Neil - If you are using MAC servos and relays for trim, they use AWG 26 wiring. They do not use much current. Re the speed brakes: you could use 24 AWG to activate a relay. > How do the small wires in the computer cable do > with the large currents for the airbrake, trim, etc? > Perhaps you don't have those items wired to your stick? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
"'aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com'"(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE:
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Don, I will check it out. A solid state contactor? Sounds like by the time I build my airplane, the only moving parts will be the flight controls and the engine! Thanks for the info. Dennis Glaeser -----Original Message----- From: DON RUSSELL [mailto:jean_don(at)msn.com] Subject: Dennis, Your diagram looks straight out of Bob's book and I agree with your approach. I wired my GlaStar using Nuckol's diagrams and have been flying for over three years now with no problems. I would like to direct you to www.periheliondesign.com <http://www.periheliondesign.com> to look at Eric's devises. Eric is using Bob Nuckols ideas and updating them with modern solid state devices. Check out his diagrams and you will find even better ways to control and automaticly switch two batteries. I am currently testing his solid state battery contactor which has a rated capacity of 1280 amps!!!---And---it only weighs about 1 ounce and is bolted directly to the battery. Eric has some great devices that should be a part of any new diagrams for dual battery use in aircraft. Don Russell Message Don, I will check it out. A solid state contactor? Sounds likeby the time I build my airplane, the only moving parts will be the flight controls and the engine! Thanks for the info. Dennis Glaeser -----Original Message----- From: DON RUSSELL [mailto:jean_don(at)msn.com] PM Subject: Dennis, Your diagram looks straight out of Bob's book and I agree with your approach. I wired my GlaStar using Nuckol's diagrams and have been flying for over three years now with no problems. I would like to direct you to http://www.periheliondesign.com/ ">www.periheliondesign.com to look at Eric's devises. Eric is using Bob Nuckols ideas and updating them with modern solid state devices. Check out his diagrams and you will find even better ways to control and automaticly switch two batteries. I am currently testing his solid state battery contactor which has a rated capacity of 1280 amps!!!---And---it only weighs about 1 ounce and is bolted directly to the battery. Eric has some great devices that should be a part of any new diagrams for dual battery use in aircraft. Don Russell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Subject: Heat Shrink
From: sjhdcl(at)kingston.net
Bob, Do you prefer double walled heat shrink over single walled? I have used both and lean towards double walled. Do you know a source for double walled heat shrink in white? Steve RV7A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> alternator on juliet
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1
alternator on juliet alternator on juliet > > > Anyway Bob's Z-30 keeps the contactors pretty much as per your diagram. >And elsewhere he shows how to wire the start switch to automatically >close the contactor during engine cranking. So yes I'm suggesting that >you leave the aux battery contactor open except for engine starting then >but bypass it with one of the 25 amp diode blocks so that it can always >accept a charge. (Or maybe use one of Eric's shotky diodes for an even >lower voltage drop.) Wired like that I'd call it a crossfeed contactor >instead of an aux battery contactor but an apple is an apple no matter >what we call it ;) Why diodes? If you have active notification of low voltage (which should be present in any airplane irrespective of engine or ignition configuration) then there is ample warning of alternator failure for prompting proper positioning of switches in a dual battery installation using ordinary contactors. For all normal ops, both battery switches ON. If the low voltage light comes on, you have plenty of time to open battery master switches, shut down ignition that runs from main battery, and close the e-bus alternate feed switch. This configures the aircraft for minimum current consumption for endurance mode of flight and maximizes reserves in the batteries for the approach and landing. If one finds some comfort in automating operation of the aux battery by means of the feature offered in our LVM/ABMM product, fine . . . but it's a gee-whiz. You STILL have certain duties to perform when the light comes on whether or not the aux battery management is automated to any degree. Someone mentioned some concerns about "discharging both batteries". How would this happen? As soon as the low voltage light comes on (seconds after alternator failure) the pilot takes the simple steps cited above to isolate the two batteries to their respective, independent tasks. Are we worrying too much about things that shouldn't be worried about? Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> and 1 alternator
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries
and 1 alternator and 1 alternator > My question is: >what kind of failure could occur which would NOT trigger the LV warning, but >could drain the batteries? None Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
> >I agree. I used a 25 Pin D-Dub for my infinity stick and it workes like >a champ. And I'll be able to get the grip off if I ever need to. >You'll most likely need the pin crimping tool for something else like >radio or transponder anyway. > >If you still want to use the soldered connectors go to Radio Smack >("You've got questions, We've got dumb looks") and get one of those >little helping hand jigs that have the articulating aligator clips. > >Godspeed, > >Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas >RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Panel >http://www.myrv7.com also for some techniques dealing with d-sub connectors see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Audio
> >Does anyone know the difference between audio high and audio low on the >radio pin output? Audio Lo is the ground side of the audio path. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: Chad Stenson <cjstenson(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Radio problem
Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time getting the radio to work properly in my Avid Flyer. The plane uses a Rotax 532 2 stroke engine. I'm using resistor plugs to eliminate any ignition noise (which there isn't any anyway). Here's the setup: Handheld radio mounted to instrument panel wired directly to 12V power. I have the headset adapter for the radio hooked in to my intercom. I have a piece of coax coming out of the top of the radio, running across the top of the door area, and then hooking up to the antenna that is mounted to the removable turtle deck. The shielding on the coax is soldered to the turtle deck for a gound plane. A little history now... I've tried 3 different antennas, 2 different radios and ran them both off AA batteries as well as the 12v power from the plane. The problem that I'm having is that periodically the radio seems to hang the receive side of the radio open as though the squelch was turned all the way down (open squelch). In fact, I have to run with the squelch turned all the way up and this still happens. I can transmit and receive just fine, but this noise (for lack of a better term) is really annoying. I thought it was maybe the radio (which is a brand new Vertex Standard VXA210) so I tried my other radio (which is an Icom A5. Same problem with both radios. I have tried running with a large choke on the power supply as well with no avail. I shipped the radio back to vertex standard yesterday after talking to their tech department, but I suspect that they won't find anything wrong. The thing that is so frustrating about this is that I'm using the same setup that almost everyone with my kind of plane and engine combination uses. No one else is having this problem. Anyway, I can offer more specifics, but that's what I need help with. Anyone with insight into a possible solution please reply, I'd sure like some advice. Regards. chad Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Subject: Tach transducer
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Thanks all for the comments. Odd everyone steered me to VANS since it is an RV I am building. Never thought to look beyond 'Spruce. Steve. --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Heat Shrink
> >Bob, > >Do you prefer double walled heat shrink over single walled? I have used >both and lean towards double walled. > >Do you know a source for double walled heat shrink in white? > >Steve >RV7A I used the double wall when extra stiffness or some degree of sealing in the finished joint is useful. About the only place I use it routinely is to finish off the joints on soldered on terminals for fat wires . . . especially welding cable. This is fairly rare in the overall use of heatshrink here in my shop. 95% of our heatshrink stocks are the single wall. I'm not aware of any double wall availability in anything but black. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio problem
> > >Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time getting the radio to work >properly in my Avid Flyer. The plane uses a Rotax 532 2 stroke engine. I'm >using resistor plugs to eliminate any ignition noise (which there isn't >any anyway). Here's the setup: Handheld radio mounted to instrument panel >wired directly to 12V power. I have the headset adapter for the radio >hooked in to my intercom. I have a piece of coax coming out of the top of >the radio, running across the >top of the door area, and then hooking up to the antenna that is mounted >to the removable turtle deck. The shielding on the coax is soldered to the >turtle deck for a gound plane. A little history now... I've tried 3 >different antennas, 2 different radios and ran them both off AA batteries >as well as the 12v power from the plane. The problem that I'm having is >that periodically the radio seems to hang the receive side of the radio >open as though the squelch was >turned all the way down (open squelch). In fact, I have to run with the >squelch turned all the way up and this still happens. I can transmit and >receive just fine, but this noise (for lack of a better term) is really >annoying. I thought it was maybe the radio (which is a brand new Vertex >Standard VXA210) so I tried my other radio (which is an >Icom A5. Same problem with both radios. I have tried running with a large >choke on the power supply as well with no avail. I shipped the radio back >to vertex standard yesterday after talking to their tech department, but I >suspect that they won't find anything wrong. The thing that is so >frustrating about this is that I'm using the same setup that almost >everyone with my kind of plane and engine combination uses. No one else is >having this problem. Anyway, I can >offer more specifics, but that's what I need help with. Anyone with >insight into a possible solution please reply, I'd sure like some advice. > >Regards. > >chad If both radios are experiencing the same problem this suggests that your airplane has some source of radio frequency noise that is fooling the radio into believing a signal is present and the squelch opens. Does it happen with the rubber duck antenna as a pure hand-held? Have you tried turning off other accessories while the radio was having problems to see if the problem goes away? Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Charles E. Brame" <charleyb(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help
Thanks for the info, Bob. I did as Jaye and Scott Jackson recommended - I got out the ohmmeter and solved the problem. The Wig Wag now wig wags as advertised. Charlie RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ------------------------------------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig Wag help > > >First thing comes to mind is a problem I had wiring up my 6 as per Bob's >manual: the switches' terminals didn't necessarily work as per the drawings. >Had to use an ohmmeter, a good, hard look at how the switch was supposed to >work in the drawings, and I think I scratched out about half my remaining >hair. >It all worked out in the end. >Bob does alude to the fact that some of the switches he supplies have the >terminals numbered differently than what he spec'd in the drawings. >Scott in VAncouver >RV-6 Here's a link to the data sheet that speaks to vairability in terminal numbering between various brands of switches. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: Chad Stenson <cjstenson(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Radio problem
The problem seems to go away with the rubber duck hooked directly to the handheld, however, no one can hear me when I transmit due to the radio being inside the cockpit. I could try to build a ground plane/antenna mount and isolate it from the rest of the airframe as test too I guess. I agree that it is likely some kind of issue that is being generated by the airframe, just don't know how to try to fix it or isolate the problem. thanks for your response. chad aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com wrote: > > >Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time getting the radio to work >properly in my Avid Flyer. The plane uses a Rotax 532 2 stroke engine. I'm >using resistor plugs to eliminate any ignition noise (which there isn't >any anyway). Here's the setup: Handheld radio mounted to instrument panel >wired directly to 12V power. I have the headset adapter for the radio >hooked in to my intercom. I have a piece of coax coming out of the top of >the radio, running across the >top of the door area, and then hooking up to the antenna that is mounted >to the removable turtle deck. The shielding on the coax is soldered to the >turtle deck for a gound plane. A little history now... I've tried 3 >different antennas, 2 different radios and ran them both off AA batteries >as well as the 12v power from the plane. The problem that I'm having is >that periodically the radio seems to hang the receive side of the radio >open as though the squelch was >turned all the way down (open squelch). In fact, I have to run with the >squelch turned all the way up and this still happens. I can transmit and >receive just fine, but this noise (for lack of a better term) is really >annoying. I thought it was maybe the radio (which is a brand new Vertex >Standard VXA210) so I tried my other radio (which is an >Icom A5. Same problem with both radios. I have tried running with a large >choke on the power supply as well with no avail. I shipped the radio back >to vertex standard yesterday after talking to their tech department, but I >suspect that they won't find anything wrong. The thing that is so >frustrating about this is that I'm using the same setup that almost >everyone with my kind of plane and engine combination uses. No one else is >having this problem. Anyway, I can >offer more specifics, but that's what I need help with. Anyone with >insight into a possible solution please reply, I'd sure like some advice. > >Regards. > >chad If both radios are experiencing the same problem this suggests that your airplane has some source of radio frequency noise that is fooling the radio into believing a signal is present and the squelch opens. Does it happen with the rubber duck antenna as a pure hand-held? Have you tried turning off other accessories while the radio was having problems to see if the problem goes away? Bob . . . --- Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Subject: Re: Radio problem
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Hi Chad, How did you determine there wasn't any ignition noise? Does the noise exist with the engine turned off, but will all systems turned on? Does the noise exist if the alternator is turned off (with the engine running). Regards, VE N34RD, C150 N714BK Matt- > > > The problem seems to go away with the rubber duck hooked directly to the > handheld, however, no one can hear me when I transmit due to the radio > being inside the cockpit. I could try to build a ground plane/antenna > mount and isolate it from the rest of the airframe as test too I guess. > I agree that it is likely some kind of issue that is being generated by > the airframe, just don't know how to try to fix it or isolate the > problem. > > thanks for your response. > chad > > > aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time getting the radio to work > properly in my Avid Flyer. The plane uses a Rotax 532 2 stroke engine. > I'm using resistor plugs to eliminate any ignition noise (which there > isn't any anyway). Here's the setup: Handheld radio mounted to > instrument panel wired directly to 12V power. I have the headset > adapter for the radio hooked in to my intercom. I have a piece of > coax coming out of the top of the radio, running across the > >top of the door area, and then hooking up to the antenna that is > mounted to the removable turtle deck. The shielding on the coax is > soldered to the turtle deck for a gound plane. A little history > now... I've tried 3 different antennas, 2 different radios and ran > them both off AA batteries as well as the 12v power from the plane. > The problem that I'm having is that periodically the radio seems to > hang the receive side of the radio open as though the squelch was > >turned all the way down (open squelch). In fact, I have to run with > the squelch turned all the way up and this still happens. I can > transmit and receive just fine, but this noise (for lack of a better > term) is really annoying. I thought it was maybe the radio (which is > a brand new Vertex Standard VXA210) so I tried my other radio (which > is an > >Icom A5. Same problem with both radios. I have tried running with a > large choke on the power supply as well with no avail. I shipped the > radio back to vertex standard yesterday after talking to their tech > department, but I suspect that they won't find anything wrong. The > thing that is so frustrating about this is that I'm using the same > setup that almost everyone with my kind of plane and engine > combination uses. No one else is having this problem. Anyway, I can > >offer more specifics, but that's what I need help with. Anyone with > insight into a possible solution please reply, I'd sure like some > advice. > > > >Regards. > > > >chad > > If both radios are experiencing the same problem this > suggests that your airplane has some source of radio frequency noise > that is fooling the radio into believing a signal is present and the > squelch opens. Does it happen with the rubber duck antenna as a pure > hand-held? Have you tried turning off other accessories while the > radio was having problems to see if the problem goes away? > > Bob . . . > > > --- > > > Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help
> > >Thanks for the info, Bob. > >I did as Jaye and Scott Jackson recommended - I got out the ohmmeter and >solved >the problem. The Wig Wag now wig wags as advertised. Good work! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Neil, I wired my RayAllen G7 grips to RayAllen relays for the aileron and elevation trim. There was the PPT switch and the autopilot engage/mode switches. I used separate grounds for the various groups. I had no high current wires. Richard Reynolds Neil Clayton wrote: > > Nice solution, Richard. How do the small wires in the computer cable do > with the large currents for the airbrake, trim, etc? > Perhaps you don't have those items wired to your stick? > > Thx > Neil > > At 04:45 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote: > > > > > >Neil, > > > >Go to the avionics wiring section of CompUSA and get a computer cable with the > >correct number of pins and male/female connectors. Cut the cable in half, use > >one end for the stick and the other to connect to your system > > > >Be careful, on some cables, not all the pins are wired. The small wires > >(usually > >26 AWG) are just right for connecting to the stick switches. > > > >Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Ammeter readings
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Bob: I wired my RV-6 as per figure Z-2, dated 04/00, but with the shunt located and ammeter wired as per Z-4 of the same date. I very much enjoyed reading your manual and feel that I learned more about electrical systems than any other aspect of making an airplane, and it has worked almost perfectly for 150 hours. The one problem you previously addressed-that of the bouncing ammeter needle- still exists, and can only be made to go away by jumpering the 12v+ from the regulator right to the main fuse block, bypassing the field breaker. I've tried jumpering the individual components and wires in the circuit, but can't isolate the problem. Nor does an ohmmeter indicate high resistance anywhere. I can live with that, although the pulsing lights at night give me pause, wondering about the effect on solid-state radios. The other issue that I hope you can address is the actual indications of the ammeter. I understood that wiring the shunt/ammeter into the alternator B-lead as per Z-4 would make it read as an alternator loadmeter, and not a charge/discharge indicator, which it would were it wired into the battery lead as usual. It partly works. It doesn't indicate a discharge while the starter motor is cranking the engine. And it does indicate a healthy charge immediately after starting. But then it slowly drifts back to zero, and, other than that infuriating pulsing to the positive side of about five amps, accompanied by an audible pinging in the headphones, stays at zero when not pulsing regardless of the load on the system. I've traced the wiring, from B-lead, through shunt, to 50A breaker, to starter solenoid, and everything appears in order. I wondered if you might have any ideas. Thanks, Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Ammeter readings
Date: Aug 10, 2004
NOthing like replying to my own post! I'm beginning to think the ammeter IS trying to work as it should, but the regulator is handling the electrical load by rapidly pulsing the alternator field rather than a steady output. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter readings > > Bob: > I wired my RV-6 as per figure Z-2, dated 04/00, but with the shunt located and ammeter wired as per Z-4 of the same date. > I very much enjoyed reading your manual and feel that I learned more about electrical systems than any other aspect of making an airplane, and it has worked almost perfectly for 150 hours. > The one problem you previously addressed-that of the bouncing ammeter needle- still exists, and can only be made to go away by jumpering the 12v+ from the regulator right to the main fuse block, bypassing the field breaker. I've tried jumpering the individual components and wires in the circuit, but can't isolate the problem. Nor does an ohmmeter indicate high resistance anywhere. > I can live with that, although the pulsing lights at night give me pause, wondering about the effect on solid-state radios. > The other issue that I hope you can address is the actual indications of the ammeter. I understood that wiring the shunt/ammeter into the alternator B-lead as per Z-4 would make it read as an alternator loadmeter, and not a charge/discharge indicator, which it would were it wired into the battery lead as usual. > It partly works. It doesn't indicate a discharge while the starter motor is cranking the engine. And it does indicate a healthy charge immediately after starting. But then it slowly drifts back to zero, and, other than that infuriating pulsing to the positive side of about five amps, accompanied by an audible pinging in the headphones, stays at zero when not pulsing regardless of the load on the system. > I've traced the wiring, from B-lead, through shunt, to 50A breaker, to starter solenoid, and everything appears in order. > I wondered if you might have any ideas. > Thanks, > Scott > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Subject: Re: Ammeter readings
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Probably an irrelevant question, but roughly what is the frequency of the audible pinging sound? I don't suppose it coincides with the flashing of the airplane's anticollision strobes... Regards, Matt- VE N34RD C150 N714BK > > > Bob: > I wired my RV-6 as per figure Z-2, dated 04/00, but with the shunt > located and ammeter wired as per Z-4 of the same date. I very much > enjoyed reading your manual and feel that I learned more about > electrical systems than any other aspect of making an airplane, and it > has worked almost perfectly for 150 hours. The one problem you > previously addressed-that of the bouncing ammeter needle- still > exists, and can only be made to go away by jumpering the 12v+ from the > regulator right to the main fuse block, bypassing the field breaker. > I've tried jumpering the individual components and wires in the > circuit, but can't isolate the problem. Nor does an ohmmeter indicate > high resistance anywhere. I can live with that, although the pulsing > lights at night give me pause, wondering about the effect on > solid-state radios. The other issue that I hope you can address is the > actual indications of the ammeter. I understood that wiring the > shunt/ammeter into the alternator B-lead as per Z-4 would make it read > as an alternator loadmeter, and not a charge/discharge indicator, > which it would were it wired into the battery lead as usual. It partly > works. It doesn't indicate a discharge while the starter motor is > cranking the engine. And it does indicate a healthy charge immediately > after starting. But then it slowly drifts back to zero, and, other > than that infuriating pulsing to the positive side of about five amps, > accompanied by an audible pinging in the headphones, stays at zero > when not pulsing regardless of the load on the system. I've traced the > wiring, from B-lead, through shunt, to 50A breaker, to starter > solenoid, and everything appears in order. I wondered if you might > have any ideas. > Thanks, > Scott > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
Listers, Has anyone using AutoCAD made a diagram or symbol for a rotary style switch? I'm using a 2 pole, 4 throw rotary switch to control the flash pattern on my Nova 906 strobe power supply. I'm still a newbie at AutoCAD. Drawing circular stuff from scratch is tough for me. Can anyone help? Charlie Kuss RV-8A cockpit wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Ammeter readings
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Matt: Everything's relevant! The pinging sound is not from the strobes, it happens as long as the alternator is turning, regardless of whether the strobes are flashing or not. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter readings > > Probably an irrelevant question, but roughly what is the frequency of the > audible pinging sound? I don't suppose it coincides with the flashing of > the airplane's anticollision strobes... > > Regards, > > Matt- > VE N34RD C150 N714BK > > > > > > > Bob: > > I wired my RV-6 as per figure Z-2, dated 04/00, but with the shunt > > located and ammeter wired as per Z-4 of the same date. I very much > > enjoyed reading your manual and feel that I learned more about > > electrical systems than any other aspect of making an airplane, and it > > has worked almost perfectly for 150 hours. The one problem you > > previously addressed-that of the bouncing ammeter needle- still > > exists, and can only be made to go away by jumpering the 12v+ from the > > regulator right to the main fuse block, bypassing the field breaker. > > I've tried jumpering the individual components and wires in the > > circuit, but can't isolate the problem. Nor does an ohmmeter indicate > > high resistance anywhere. I can live with that, although the pulsing > > lights at night give me pause, wondering about the effect on > > solid-state radios. The other issue that I hope you can address is the > > actual indications of the ammeter. I understood that wiring the > > shunt/ammeter into the alternator B-lead as per Z-4 would make it read > > as an alternator loadmeter, and not a charge/discharge indicator, > > which it would were it wired into the battery lead as usual. It partly > > works. It doesn't indicate a discharge while the starter motor is > > cranking the engine. And it does indicate a healthy charge immediately > > after starting. But then it slowly drifts back to zero, and, other > > than that infuriating pulsing to the positive side of about five amps, > > accompanied by an audible pinging in the headphones, stays at zero > > when not pulsing regardless of the load on the system. I've traced the > > wiring, from B-lead, through shunt, to 50A breaker, to starter > > solenoid, and everything appears in order. I wondered if you might > > have any ideas. > > Thanks, > > Scott > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1(at)kc.rr.com>
Subject: Why electrical interruption on start??
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Bob ..I've wired my RV6 straight down the lines of Z-14 with the exception that I don't use both busses to start the aircraft. That said, I have two Grand Rapids displays each with two separate power wires wired to the two different busses so that they will operate if I turn off either buss. Why does the alternate buss 'die' when I start the aircraft, killing the display? I can understand the primary bus kicking off during start .. but why the alternate? I've got to go through the 'reboot' sequence again each time I hit the starter! Thanks... DWS Finished RV6-A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Koyich" <Ron(at)Koyich.com>
Subject: Radio problem
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Hi, Chad - from my viewpoint as an old avionics guy who has, in the past, installed radios in a number of aircraft without shielded ignition systems, your problem sounds exactly the same as ignition interference. You say there is none - how did you determine that 'fact?' As someone else asked, what happens to the noise when you turn off the ignition? The most recent experience with this was a friend's Stearman, with the antenna on the turtle deck. He moved the antenna further back and the noise was significantly reduced, to the point where he can communicate. The other aircraft with the same installations but which work, may have some differences you aren't taking into account. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2004
Subject: Re: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Charlie - I use AutoCAD a lot, but that is one block i don't have. If you get one, let me know. I'd like a copy. Cheers, John wrote: > > > Listers, > Has anyone using AutoCAD made a diagram or symbol for a rotary style > switch? I'm using a 2 pole, 4 throw rotary switch to control the flash > pattern on my Nova 906 strobe power supply. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
> >Listers, > Has anyone using AutoCAD made a diagram or symbol for a rotary style >switch? I'm using a 2 pole, 4 throw rotary switch to control the flash >pattern on my Nova 906 strobe power supply. I'm still a newbie at AutoCAD. >Drawing circular stuff from scratch is tough for me. Can anyone help? >Charlie Kuss >RV-8A cockpit wiring Sure. Check out http://www.aeroelectric.com/AutoCAD_Drawings/2P4T_Rotary.dwg There are two styles of two-pole, four-position switch schematics posted there. Take your pick. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Neil Henderson" <neil.mo51(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Garmin BNC connector
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Listers I need to replace the BNC connector on my Garmin 196 GPS aerial lead. Doe's anyone know what type of connector I need, 50 or 75 ohm? Neil Henderson RV9 Aylesbury UK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Koyich" <Ron(at)Koyich.com>
Subject: Garmin BNC connector
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Hi, Neil - it will be 50 ohm cable but more important when you're finding one is to get the correct one for the diameter of cable you'll be using with it. Is this for the aircraft mounted antenna? I use RG-58 cable and crimped on connector for my wheel mounted 196. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Neil, By the sounds of things, you may want to use the type of DB-25 connector that uses crimp pins that snap in and lock into the connector housing rather than the type with fixed solder terminals. It takes an terminal/pin extractor tool to remove them. This would allow you to change or punch them out later if necessary to remove the stick grip. There are also solder versions of the individual connector contacts but you have to be careful not to use to much solder thus making the contacts too big to push into the housing. Radio Shack sells a cheap crimper that will work adequately for doing a small amount of DB 25 connector contacts. As for the connector and contacts you make want to get a good quality connector and crimp contacts from some place like Mouser Electronics or Altex Electronics. Order crimps for the wire gauge your using. (Note, get the contacts with "U" shape crimp not the round crimps as they take a very expensive tool to properly crimp them.) While convenient and readily available one thing I've found is much of the Radio Shack components having solder terminals like push button switches are made with a low melt point plastic rather than high temp melt resistant material or Bakelite. Even though your careful trying to be quick and not heat the terminal too hot, the housing will melt and terminals will actually move or loosen and the switches prove to be unreliable even to the point of not working. I've found them to be a waste of money and time especially when you pay nearly the same price for them as better quality components from electronic supply houses like above. Having worked in the electronic industry I've soldered enough small and miniature switches to know what I'm writing about. jerb > >Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector >onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to remove >the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and decided >there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. >Can you direct me to such a device? > >Many thanks > >Neil > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
Bob Thanks. I spent an hour designing a switch symbol last night. I've saved your symbols to my wire book. Charlie > > > > > > >Listers, > > Has anyone using AutoCAD made a diagram or symbol for a rotary style > >switch? I'm using a 2 pole, 4 throw rotary switch to control the flash > >pattern on my Nova 906 strobe power supply. I'm still a newbie at AutoCAD. > >Drawing circular stuff from scratch is tough for me. Can anyone help? > >Charlie Kuss > >RV-8A cockpit wiring > > Sure. Check out > http://www.aeroelectric.com/AutoCAD_Drawings/2P4T_Rotary.dwg > There are two styles of two-pole, four-position switch schematics > posted there. Take your pick. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Bob- What about failure of the power line to the regulator or failure of the regulator itself? gm From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> and 1 alternator Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FW: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator and 1 alternator > My question is: >what kind of failure could occur which would NOT trigger the LV warning, but >could drain the batteries? None Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help
on juliet Is there an automotive application (or part number) for such a two way flasher that I could look for the next time I'm in the auto wrecker's? thanks Ken Charles E. Brame wrote: > >I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch >-Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but >the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either >of the switch "On" positions. > >At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light >output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher >shut? > >I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low >voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working? > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB >San Antonio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator
Date: Aug 11, 2004
On Aug 10, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III , and(at)froghouse.org, 1(at)froghouse.org, alternator(at)froghouse.org wrote: > and 1 alternator > > >> My question is: >> what kind of failure could occur which would NOT trigger the LV >> warning, but >> could drain the batteries? > > None There is always failure of the LV warning itself. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Radio problem
Date: Aug 11, 2004
On Aug 10, 2004, at 12:37 PM, Chad Stenson wrote: > > > Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time getting the radio to work > properly in my Avid Flyer. The thing that is so frustrating about > this is that I'm using the same setup that almost everyone with my > kind of plane and engine combination uses. No one else is having this > problem. Anyway, I can > offer more specifics, but that's what I need help with. Anyone with > insight into a possible solution please reply, I'd sure like some > advice. A couple of years back I ran into exactly the same problem. A signal saturated the receiver and opened the squelch. I could not reliably communicate. The problem turned out to be the ELT. It was receiving all manner of broadcast energy and then reradiating it as noise in the aircraft band. Disconnecting the antenna from the ELT solved the problem. The ELT was then sent back for repair. No more problems. BTW, I had several top-notch radio shops work on the problem as I was stumped (and I have a lot of experience with mobile radio troubleshooting). They couldn't find it either. It was an old A&P who remembered this problem with ELTs and suggested I look there. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help on juliet
Date: Aug 11, 2004
As a very simple unit is about $15 from B&C Specialties, there might not be any savings to buying a used one. Scott in vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken" <klehman(at)albedo.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig Wag help on juliet > > Is there an automotive application (or part number) for such a two way > flasher that I could look for the next time I'm in the auto wrecker's? > thanks > Ken > > Charles E. Brame wrote: > > > > >I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch > >-Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but > >the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either > >of the switch "On" positions. > > > >At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light > >output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher > >shut? > > > >I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low > >voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working? > > > >Charlie Brame > >RV-6A N11CB > >San Antonio > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ammeter readings
> > >NOthing like replying to my own post! >I'm beginning to think the ammeter IS trying to work as it should, but the >regulator is handling the electrical load by rapidly pulsing the alternator >field rather than a steady output. You're very close . . . > > > > > Bob: > > I wired my RV-6 as per figure Z-2, dated 04/00, but with the shunt >located and ammeter wired as per Z-4 of the same date. > > I very much enjoyed reading your manual and feel that I learned more >about electrical systems than any other aspect of making an airplane, and it >has worked almost perfectly for 150 hours. I'm pleased that you find the work useful . . . > > The one problem you previously addressed-that of the bouncing ammeter >needle- still exists, and can only be made to go away by jumpering the 12v+ >from the regulator right to the main fuse block, bypassing the field >breaker. This is a profound fact. > I've tried jumpering the individual components and wires in the >circuit, but can't isolate the problem. Nor does an ohmmeter indicate high >resistance anywhere. "High" resistance in this instance is not something you'd expect to measure with the ordinary ohmmeter. The resistance values were working with live in the very low range below 100 milliohms or so. > > I can live with that, although the pulsing lights at night give me >pause, wondering about the effect on solid-state radios. No risks here. The effect of the pulsing phenomenon is not harmful to system components. We've discussed wiring induced regulator instability numerous times on the list. Old Pipers and Cessnas are well know for their ability to demonstrate this phenomenon. The problem arises only when the regulator's power input lead has dual duty: (1) sense bus voltage for purposes of regulation and (2) carry current used to excite the alternator's field. Depending on a lot of variables, the regulator can become unstable when (A) the resistance between bus and regulator is too high . . . and by "two high" we can be saying that 34 milliohms is fine and 60 milliohms causes problems. This problem can also crop up when (B) fat wires that tie alternator b-lead, battery and main bus are too high resistance meaning that wire gage is too small for the length of wire run. Condition B is much less likely but the risk is not zero. The fact that you can jumper between the bus and regulator and make the problem go away is a strong indicator that condition A is operating. Without seeing details of your wiring, I would suggest that you first increase the wire gage between bus and regulator. Try 14AWG . . . much lower resistance compared to 20AWG shown on my drawings. You don't need to change anything else. All other hardware is fine as is. If this doesn't fix it, you MIGHT have a bad regulator . . . again, badness is relative. Out of a production run of 100 regulators, you might have one or two new ones that have the problem in your particular installation while the rest work just fine. However, virtually ALL such regulators have a risk of instability when poor wiring choices or ageing joints drives the power path resistance up. The 100% cure for this phenomenon is to purchase a regulator with separate bus sense and field power leads. The B&C LR3 series regulators are good examples. Voltage regulators for turbine aircraft have had this feature for decades. I designed regulators for Cessna 30 years ago that featured independent field power and bus sense leads. This is not intended to discourage you from taking advantage of the low cost automotive products like the VR166 generic Ford regulator featured in some of my architecture diagrams. You simply need to understand the phenomenon and take prudent steps to keep it from happening and/or fix it when it does happen. > > The other issue that I hope you can address is the actual indications of >the ammeter. I understood that wiring the shunt/ammeter into the alternator >B-lead as per Z-4 would make it read as an alternator loadmeter, and not a >charge/discharge indicator, which it would were it wired into the battery >lead as usual. "As usual" might apply to Cessnas but the "usual" technique for Pipers is to wire ammeters up as alternator load meters. Either instrument has value for interpreting system behavior but the battery ammeter forces some modifications to architecture which are not compatible with the philosophies illustrated in hte Z-figures. If one has a low-volts warning light, then additional instruments in the form of voltmeters and ammeters of any style are just frosting on the cake . . . and not particularly useful to pilots. They're very useful to mechanics trying to troubleshoot a system that won't turn off the low voltage warning light. > > It partly works. It doesn't indicate a discharge while the starter motor >is cranking the engine. I'd say is "mostly works" . . . alternator ammeters won't show a discharge while cranking the engine. For that matter, battery ammeters generally don't either. Cranking currents are not routed through panel ammeters of any form. Your ammeter is performing as intended . . . > And it does indicate a healthy charge immediately >after starting. But then it slowly drifts back to zero, Yup, the alternator is replacing energy used to start the engine. This takes a few minutes at most. > and, other than that >infuriating pulsing to the positive side of about five amps, accompanied by >an audible pinging in the headphones, stays at zero when not pulsing >regardless of the load on the system. Here's a question. What are you using for "loads". The alternator load meter should indicate total drain on alternator and unless everything in the airplane is OFF . . . the alternator loadmeter will never show zero amps. Are you truly reading "zero" or are your system load so small that they're difficult to read on your particular ammeter? What is the full-scale range of your ammeter? > > I've traced the wiring, from B-lead, through shunt, to 50A breaker, to >starter solenoid, and everything appears in order. > > I wondered if you might have any ideas. I'm betting that everything is fine except for the bus to regulator wiring resistance. Try up-sizing the wire. I think your ammeter is fine too . . . turn EVERYTHING on with engine rpm above 2000 and see what it reads. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
Bob: Shame on you! The file posted there is saved in AutoCAD version 15 file format - meaning that only those of us who have the very latest of AutoCAD can use it (and I am not one). Since you provide an older version of AutoCAD on your CD I would expect that you, of all people, would be cognizant of this issue and save files in a more universal version. Normally, your words and actions are right on, but in this case I have to take exception. This is one of my pet peeves - people assuming that everyone else has the very latest software versions. And software companies changing file formats so they are unreadable by older versions of their software! Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >>Listers, >> Has anyone using AutoCAD made a diagram or symbol for a rotary style >>switch? I'm using a 2 pole, 4 throw rotary switch to control the flash >>pattern on my Nova 906 strobe power supply. I'm still a newbie at AutoCAD. >>Drawing circular stuff from scratch is tough for me. Can anyone help? >>Charlie Kuss >>RV-8A cockpit wiring >> >> > > Sure. Check out http://www.aeroelectric.com/AutoCAD_Drawings/2P4T_Rotary.dwg > There are two styles of two-pole, four-position switch schematics > posted there. Take your pick. > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: pressure switch for hobbs
Can anyone direct me to a source for a replacement oil pressure switch for the hobbs in production aircraft (tso etc.)? Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: Wallace Enga <wenga(at)svtv.com>
Subject: Re: Load Dump report status.
Hi Paul, Just checking to see if you have posted this report & I missed it. Certainly do appreciate the major effort you have put into this project. Wally Enga > >We are in the last stages of the report. > >What started out to be a simple test of alternator load dump has turned out >to be a huge time sink for us. One estimated week has expanded into over >three months. > >In building the test simulator it was decided to use a simplified test >circuit that contained the essentials of a basic aircraft electrical system >using parts likely to be used by many builders. Contactors from Wicks or >ACFT Spruce etc. Bob's OVP per "the do it your self version", both the >popular Panasonic Type 12v 18 ah battery as well as the Odyssey PC625 that >were lying around and not to be used in flight. > >There were problems from the start that needed to be sorted out before the >initial Alternator load dumps could be characterized. > >While load dump is well known its surprising how different it's defined, >based on who is defining it. There is a factor of ten in the magnitude of >the dump pulse in the different literature. > >Thanks to Bob, we have a copy of DO-160 to review and apply to our testing. >Perhaps surprising there are short comings in this document. > >We also decided that to only point out designs or devices that did not meet >our expectations was not enough. We decided that an a solution needed to be >designed and tested so anyone wanting to follow the test results and >suggested changes could have a really available alternative solution. > >There were no "grounding before next flight" problems discovered but there >are some design changes suggested to improve the reliability of the >electrical system. > >We have dozens of tests and several hundred scope pictures etc to sort thru >to provide all the needed documentation to understand the tests and the test >results. This report in being written in a format that is intended to reduce >the electronics background needed to understand the test and test results. > >The tests and test results are presented as facts and have been repeatable >over the entire duration of the testing process from start to some done >today. > >Comments about the significance of the test results are informed opinion, as >are the recommended solutions. We will limit solutions to one or more >readily available ones and not leave a problem without a solution. The main >reason for the test duration is the need to design and test a solution to a >problem. > >Clearly all aircraft electrical needs are different from say an VFR non >electric engine to an IFR electrically dependent engine. The specific design >of these systems is beyond the scope of this effort. There is a common core >of any system consisting of the alternator, main bus, and battery and that >is what we limited the study to. > >The report will be posted on the web shortly after the end of OSH 2004. I >plan to make the trip there as do others on the list and we want to be >around to reply to comments on the report. > >Paul > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help on juliet
It's now $22 from B&C Specialties - last item on the page. A while back they were $17 on one of the companies that sell safety equipment ( search wig wag flashers on google.com). http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?10X358218#gcl-1 I think its the unit made by Tracon (sp) - they make electronic replacement flashers for auto's - good units I might add if your changing the loading when pulling a trailer, their electronic units eliminate the problem of flashing to fast. They have on special unit that can be used as a wig-wag unit. Also check out the Show Me units - I have one of these on my plane and it works good. The unit I have allows you to select flash both, alternate flash, or both lights on. Also check the wattage of your landing lights and what a unit can handle. They can be purchased with wire pig tails or screw terminals, I got the one with terminal. Also there is flash rate, I got the slowest I could get which comes out to be a second on, a second off. I think mine cost me around $45 dollars - I use it for switching recognition (driving) lights on my ultralight. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/bcssales/shomranheadf.html Do a serch on google.com for Able 2 & Show ME wig wag flashers. There is a lot of price variation between places that sell them, I got mine from the manufacturer - they had the best price. jerb > > >As a very simple unit is about $15 from B&C Specialties, there might not be >any savings to buying a used one. >Scott in vancouver >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken" <klehman(at)albedo.net> >To: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig Wag help on juliet > > > > > > Is there an automotive application (or part number) for such a two way > > flasher that I could look for the next time I'm in the auto wrecker's? > > thanks > > Ken > > > > Charles E. Brame wrote: > > > > > > > > >I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch > > >-Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but > > >the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either > > >of the switch "On" positions. > > > > > >At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light > > >output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher > > >shut? > > > > > >I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low > > >voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working? > > > > > >Charlie Brame > > >RV-6A N11CB > > >San Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: pressure switch for hobbs
Date: Aug 11, 2004
I have a Hobbs pressure switch (the one made by Hobbs) available for sale - new, never used. $15, paypal, non-priority shipping in US included. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <rd2(at)evenlink.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: pressure switch for hobbs > > Can anyone direct me to a source for a replacement oil pressure switch for > the hobbs in production aircraft (tso etc.)? > > Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
Subject: Data and source for Mostek 3780
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Hi all, Can anyone direct me to where I can get technical information on a Mostek MK3780 uP and where I can procure one. I suspect that this device is now obsolete. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: pressure switch for hobbs
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Try looking for a VDO pressure sensor, many of the VDO also have switch for hobbs. Regards, Trampas www.sterntech.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rd2(at)evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: pressure switch for hobbs Can anyone direct me to a source for a replacement oil pressure switch for the hobbs in production aircraft (tso etc.)? Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: pressure switch for hobbs
I did a little web surfing at egauges.com and came up with three pressure switch selections, 15 psi, 30 psi, and 50 psi. See http://egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=Pro_Light_Pressure&Cart= for more details. Mark S. > >Try looking for a VDO pressure sensor, many of the VDO also have switch for >hobbs. > >Regards, >Trampas >www.sterntech.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >rd2(at)evenlink.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: pressure switch for hobbs > > >Can anyone direct me to a source for a replacement oil pressure switch for >the hobbs in production aircraft (tso etc.)? > >Rumen > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: Load Dump report status.
Date: Aug 11, 2004
Still recovering from work left behind to go to OSH. Also lots to the report as it was greatly expanded in scope as problems were discovered as testing developed. Problems need solutions, so after determining there was a "Problem" (problem is defined as something we did not think was as good as it could be; or simply not good at all) we needed to develop a better design and then build it and test it under the identical conditions so we can report 'this is not good' and here is a tested "better solution". Some "problems" were complete suprises. Nothing thast in our opinion that was a "must fix now", just things that need attention depending on your personal needs. Later this month is current estimate for report. Sadly what started out as a simple short test developed into a many month test/design/development/test effort. I have never been accused of short cuts and this is a good example of one thing leading to another. But there is the resulting data taken and hundreds of photographs etc that is a great test data base of basic electrical systems design. We did not get into 1 vs 2 batteries, different busses etc. Its just the basis of a simple system that can be expanded on and for the most part be reproduced by any one interested. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wallace Enga" <wenga(at)svtv.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump report status. > > > Hi Paul, > Just checking to see if you have posted this report & I missed it. > > Certainly do appreciate the major effort you have put into this project. > Wally Enga > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: pressure switch for hobbs
Thanks Mark, Trampas. Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Mark Steitle; Date: 04:00 PM 8/11/2004 -0500) I did a little web surfing at egauges.com and came up with three pressure switch selections, 15 psi, 30 psi, and 50 psi. See http://egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=Pro_Light_Pressure&Cart= for more details. Mark S. > >Try looking for a VDO pressure sensor, many of the VDO also have switch for >hobbs. > >Regards, >Trampas >www.sterntech.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >rd2(at)evenlink.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: pressure switch for hobbs > > >Can anyone direct me to a source for a replacement oil pressure switch for >the hobbs in production aircraft (tso etc.)? > >Rumen > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
> > >Bob: Shame on you! The file posted there is saved in AutoCAD version 15 >file format - meaning that only those of us who have the very latest of >AutoCAD can use it (and I am not one). Since you provide an older >version of AutoCAD on your CD I would expect that you, of all people, >would be cognizant of this issue and save files in a more universal version. > >Normally, your words and actions are right on, but in this case I have >to take exception. This is one of my pet peeves - people assuming that >everyone else has the very latest software versions. And software >companies changing file formats so they are unreadable by older versions >of their software! > >Dick Tasker I assumed nothing. He asked for an AutoCAD drawing. ACAD2000 was all I had installed on this computer at the time. He didn't say what version he was using. I have to pass drawings through two older versions to save-down to R12 which I have now done. The "old" drawing has been posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/AutoCAD_Drawings/2P4TR.DWG We aim to please but it also helps if the requester is a bit more specific as to their needs. He mentioned the next day that he saved the block to his library of symbols so I presume that he was able to read the original posting. Time and facilities permitting, anyone who wants anything different will be accommodated as soon as I'm aware of their needs. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time getting
the radio to work properly
Date: Aug 12, 2004
2.5 SUB_HELLO Subject starts with "Hello" Hello Chad, Rex Shaw here from Australia. I am a retired electronics tech and have just cured a similar problem in my Kitfox MKIV Classic Speedster/582. Bear in mind these things although appearing the same or similar don't always respond to the same solution. However you seem to have got very close to the answer but not quite. I too have an Icom handheld on the dash. I take the 12 volt wire that feeds the radio to a 2,200uf capacitor to ground then through an iron core choke then another 2,200uf to ground, this then goes into a 1.5 amp 9 volt regulator chip. The 9 volts out has a 10uf and .ooiuf to ground and goes to the intercomm and the noise cancelling in the headsets. Please note The 12 volt wire that goes to the radio still does in mine and it's fine but you could leave the 12 volt wire into the start of my circuit and take the radio feed from the second 2,200uf for extra filtering. The thing is the radio needs 12 volts but the intercomm and noise cancelling should be happy on 9 volts. The idea of dropping to 9 volts through the regulator chip [ about $1.oo ] is that this cuts all the noise and spikes of 1,000 times better than filtering. However you do need that bit of filtering [ the 2,200's & choke ] before the regulator chip or it will fail. As I said it may not work for you but I'm tipping it will. It is absolutely fantastic in mine. Should anyone need to sight the circuit drawing I drew up a rough sketch that I sent to Graham in Queensland and I can scan and send it to you if you contact me by E'mail. Hope this helps. Rex. rexjan(at)bigpond.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AutoCAD Rotary switch diagram needed
Point taken. I am sorry. I had assumed that the file was already on your site and that you were just pointing it out to the requester, assuming that you would have originally saved it in a relatively universal format when you put it there in the first place. I should have known that you would have gone out of your way to find one and put it there when he asked for it - I don't know how you find the time to do all you do. Regarding the others who answered/chastised me, I have not upgraded beyond 98 for the simple reason that the newer versions do not do anything more that I need. In fact, 98 doesn't do anything more than the original LT version that I need. The only reason I have that version is because that is what was available when I bought it. And, yes, I can now read the file just fine. Thank You, Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > I assumed nothing. He asked for an AutoCAD drawing. > ACAD2000 was all I had installed on this computer at the time. > He didn't say what version he was using. I have to > pass drawings through two older versions to save-down > to R12 which I have now done. The "old" drawing has been > posted at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/AutoCAD_Drawings/2P4TR.DWG > > We aim to please but it also helps if the requester is a bit > more specific as to their needs. He mentioned the next day that > he saved the block to his library of symbols so I presume that > he was able to read the original posting. Time and facilities > permitting, anyone who wants anything different will be > accommodated as soon as I'm aware of their needs. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2004
From: Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help on juliet
jerb wrote: > >It's now $22 from B&C Specialties - last item on the page. > I got mine from NAPA, forgot the part number. I'll look next time I'm at the hanger, but someone will come up with it before that I'm sure. -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Fixture for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector
Date: Aug 12, 2004
> >Bob....I spent two frustrating hours trying to solder a D-sub connector >onto the 19+ wires of an Infinity Stick. The idea is to be able to remove >the stick during annuals, etc. I eventually threw up the idea and decided >there MUST be some kind of professional jig for wiring these things. >Can you direct me to such a device? > >Many thanks >Neil Removal of the control part of the stick is common practice in jets. I have seen those round Amphenol circular bayonet-lock connectors. My opinion is to find a real professional electronics assembler (usually older women ) to do the job for you. Don't believe that you can easily develop the skill to do this correctly yourself. By the way: Jig---a device, often temporary, to guide a tool or tool bit. Fixture---a device to hold a part that is being worked on. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones(at)charter.net "A man's got to know his limitations." (Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry in Magnum Force, 1973) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: echristley(at)nc.rr.com.getting.the.radio.to.work.properly
Subject: Re: Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time
getting the radio to work properly to work properly > I too have an Icom handheld on the dash. I take the 12 volt wire > thatfeeds the radio to a 2,200uf capacitor to ground then through > an iron core > choke then another 2,200uf to ground, this then Isn't this an oscillator? I'm not sure of the relationship between iron core chokes and inductors, but wouldn't an oscillator be 'bad' at this point in the circuit? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Load Dump redux
>Comments/Questions: Hello Bob, > >I'm considering the electrical system in my RV-6 project. > >I work on computers, so mobile 12V is a little foreign, and I'm not >looking to beat a dead horse, but... > >When I went looking for load dump information as it applies to airplanes I >found your link on voltage spikes. > >My understanding is that if a battery circuit opens the energy stored in >the leakage inductance of the stator windings of the alternator is what >might cause a voltage spike. > >As you point out, the stator windings are not tightly coupled to the >field, this limits the short circuit output current. > >This lose coupling also prevents an infinitely fast voltage regulator on >the field windings from controlling the voltage on the alternator output >terminal if the battery is quickly disconnected. > >Am I wrong? Only slightly. The excess voltage is not a problem of energy stored on alternator inductance. It's a matter of alternator/regulator dynamics. Suppose you're playing tug-of-war and one side suddenly releases their grip. It's nearly impossible for folks on the other side to avoid falling. Even if they're braced for the event, their reaction to sudden release of tension is subject to reaction time and their position is certain to transit backwards for a period of time required to react to the reduced stress. Alternators (indeed all servo systems) exhibit the same response to one degree or another unless they are over-damped. Over-damping the servo response is generally not acceptable in most control situations. The event is rare in aircraft and only came to light again a few months ago when Van's Aircraft noted that some builders were killing their alternators when wired for external OV protection and they happened to operate the alternator's ON/OFF control switch at a time when the alternator was producing significant power. Alternators with built in regulators need a b-lead disconnect contactor for absolute over the consequences of a failed regulator. Opening this contactor when the alternator was producing significant power caused the alternator to overshoot and kill its own regulator. There are efforts under way to quantify the magnitude of this voltage perturbation and size a transient clamping device that will mitigate the event. In any case, this an isolated event that happens only when the alternator is operated in a mode inconsistent the normal operation of the aircraft. By the way, the production Bonanza has separate alternator and battery switches. I could sit in the seat of a brand new airplane and produce an alternator overshoot event with a particular manipulation of the controls. For the event cited on Van's alternators, only the alternator is at-risk. Except for inadvertent but stressful mis-operation of controls that MIGHT kill the alternator, the system still does the task for which it was designed - protect the ship's system from ov events. Bob . . . >Ole Moyer >Power Supply Application Engineer >On Semiconductor On of my favorite silicon foundries. You guys make some nifty parts! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: erie <erie(at)shelbyvilledesign.com>
Subject: Re: Hello everyone. I'm having a terrible time
getting the radio to work properly Actually, If I'm not mistaken it's a pi filter, quite good at attenuating noise out ... erie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: For and aft slide switch
Date: Aug 12, 2004
I'm working on the design for my throttle. I want to put an on-off-on spring loaded to off slide switch in the end of the handle. Military jets have this type of switch in the throttle for speed brakes. Anyone know what they are called and where does one get them. Thanks Mark Banus Glasair SII FT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: For and aft slide switch
Date: Aug 12, 2004
Try, http://www.ottoeng.com/index.html Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Banus Subject: AeroElectric-List: For and aft slide switch I'm working on the design for my throttle. I want to put an on-off-on spring loaded to off slide switch in the end of the handle. Military jets have this type of switch in the throttle for speed brakes. Anyone know what they are called and where does one get them. Thanks Mark Banus Glasair SII FT == == == == ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Strobe supply question
Bob & Listers, Is there any "minimum" distance that one should keep between a strobe power supply and your intercom wiring? Is this a potential issue? All intercom and strobe wiring will be shielded. Charlie Kuss ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? Joa --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: For and aft slide switch
Date: Aug 12, 2004
My 6 has a surplus throttle grip from a F-86, and I've used the speedbrake slide switch for the electric flaps. When I opened up the grip to find out which wires were which, I was surprized to find the speedbrake switch was actually just a toggle, with the top of the handle allen-keyed to the plastic thumb slide. That would explain why the speedbrake part of the grip is a little arc between two side ears. Scott in Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: For and aft slide switch > > Try, http://www.ottoeng.com/index.html > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > Banus > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: For and aft slide switch > > > > > I'm working on the design for my throttle. I want to put an on-off-on > spring loaded to off slide switch in the end of the handle. Military > jets have this type of switch in the throttle for speed brakes. Anyone > know what they are called and where does one get them. Thanks > > Mark Banus > > Glasair SII FT > > > == > == > == > == > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Date: Aug 12, 2004
Uni-wrap silicone tape. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/uniwrap.php You get better value in the roll from Spruce than you do from B&C. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joa Harrison" <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: non-adhesive stretchy tape > > > Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? > > > Joa > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: f1rocket(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Date: Aug 12, 2004
I found it at Radio Shack. I don't remember the exact name, but it is rubberized silicon tape. It only sticks to itself. I use it to wrap wire bundles where they touch other bundles. I think Bob's shop notes also refer to this and picture it in the article about tying wire bundles. Randy F1 Rocket http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to > itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it > was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? > > > Joa > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > I found it at Radio Shack. I don't remember the exact name, but it is rubberized silicon tape. It only sticks to itself. I use it to wrap wire bundles where they touch other bundles. I think Bob's shop notes also refer to this and picture it in the article about tying wire bundles. Randy F1 Rocket http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/ -------------- Original message -------------- -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joa Harrison Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? Joa --------------------------------- ================================================== & ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj(at)sdf.lonestar.org>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Date: Aug 12, 2004
Sounds like you're describing Scotch 130C linerless electrical tape. You can get it at http://www.mcmaster.com/ Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joa Harrison" <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: non-adhesive stretchy tape > > > Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? > > > Joa > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Great replies, thanks everyone. A buddy here at work went to New Zealand recently and said that this kind of tape was at all the convenience stores and such for a really low price. Guess it just hasn't caught on that fast out here for household use. Thanks again folks! Joa --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: Paul <pwilson(at)climber.org>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Home Depot has the tape, as do most electrical supply places. Its very popular with electricians for house wiring. Paul ======= > >Great replies, thanks everyone. A buddy here at work went to New Zealand recently and said that this kind of tape was at all the convenience stores and such for a really low price. Guess it just hasn't caught on that fast out here for household use. > >Thanks again folks! -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc(at)qconline.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Date: Aug 12, 2004
The stuff you refer to is called self-fusing tape. It's kind of rubbery, but does stretch and stick to itself extremely well. Radio Shack is where I've been getting it. Good for overwrapping electrical quick disconnects. Larry > Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? > > > Joa ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net>
Any electrical supply house will have this. I believe it is silicone-based. We used it to wrap the connections to the runway & taxiway lights here at the airpark before stuffing the wires into the big cans. Had one error and traced it to the malfunction. Getting that stuff off is difficult. You literally have to cut it off. It is "self vulcanizing" and I believe it. It is legal - code wise for waterproofing a connection. The guys used it on my well pump and that is 150 feet into the water. Cheers, John > Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that > sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: Mark Sherman <msherman95632(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Noise filter
Good afternoon all. I am having a problem with strobe noise in the headsets. I have searched the archives and tried all the fixes. Everything wired per AeroElectric Connection. I have decided to install a choke filter, but the one described in Bob's notes will only handle 2.0 continuous amps. I need at least 8 amps for the ValCom 760 I'm using. Can anyone recommend the size, part numbers and supplier for parts to handle the 8 amps? ===== Mark S. CH-701/912ULS N752MS reserved __________________________________ http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
Subject: Re: Noise filter
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Does the ValCom 760 use vacuum tubes?? 8A is more than 96watts, 48 radiated - enough to talk all over the planet on, or since its VHF, to the moon (with the right antenna) anyway. You could guess that a modern transmitter was 50% efficient. If the radiated power were 6 watts (makes the math easy), then it would be burning 12 watts on the input. 12watts is about 1amp.... 2amps should handle up to 12 watts continuous radiated. I'll bet that the 8A spec was a WAG on the part of the ValCom engineers, and the 2A continuous should be plenty. Regards, Matt- VE N34RD, C150 N714BK > > > Good afternoon all. > > I am having a problem with strobe noise in the > headsets. I have searched the archives and tried all > the fixes. Everything wired per AeroElectric > Connection. > > I have decided to install a choke filter, but the one > described in Bob's notes will only handle 2.0 > continuous amps. I need at least 8 amps for the > ValCom 760 I'm using. > > Can anyone recommend the size, part numbers and > supplier for parts to handle the 8 amps? > > ===== > Mark S. > CH-701/912ULS > N752MS reserved > > > __________________________________ > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2004
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
on juliet Actually the more common cheaper black stuff like Scotch 130 is some type of rubber not silicone if it matters to your application. The silicone stuff like Scotch 70 is I believe usually not black and substantially more expensive. Ken John Schroeder wrote: > >Any electrical supply house will have this. I believe it is >silicone-based. We used it to wrap the connections to the runway & taxiway >lights here at the airpark before stuffing the wires into the big cans. >Had one error and traced it to the malfunction. Getting that stuff off is >difficult. You literally have to cut it off. It is "self vulcanizing" and >I believe it. It is legal - code wise for waterproofing a connection. The >guys used it on my well pump and that is 150 feet into the water. > >Cheers, > >John > > > >>Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that >>sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Subject: Question about Switches
Date: Aug 12, 2004
Hi Bob, In a recent reply about switches, you said: My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer, three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole, three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the 'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf My question is how could you tell just by looking at the info in the catalog that it is a progressive transfer switch? Are all 4 pole, three position, switches progressive transfer? Unless a switch comes with your standardized numbering system, I'm lost. Thanks again for helping me resolve my alternative magneto switch scheme questions. Best, Dennis Johnson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Date: Aug 13, 2004
Hello Joa, I have a package of two rolls of tape in front of me that I bought at the EAA Arlington event. One roll of black and one of white. They threw in a roll of red as a show special. Would this be the same stuff you saw at Osh.? The label says: "silicone ATOMIC TAPE just stretch wrap and go" "Self bonding- Cutting edge technology- Air tight- Water tight- withstands 700 lb.PSI Resists 500 degree F.(260 C) insulates 8,000 volts" Made in USA, each roll 20 mil 1" wide 12" long The label on the back of the pack says: RESCUE TAPE (with a trade mark indication) sales(at)rescuetape.com 877-847-2628 ~ www.rescuetape.com www.flyshowproducts.com They claim to have the highest quality tape of this type publicly available. They said they where out of California. Happy wrapping, Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joa Harrison" <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: non-adhesive stretchy tape > > > Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire bundles? > > > Joa > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Morning, Jim... After checking out their website www.rescuetape.com I'd have to say that it is indeed what we've been discussing. I was not aware it came in colors, though. I've been using the plain ol' gray stuff for about 20 years (first ran into it in a former life as control system designer for a pharmaceutical company...unique and VERY expensive back then!) Harley Dixon Jim Jewell wrote: > >Hello Joa, > >I have a package of two rolls of tape in front of me that I bought at the >EAA Arlington event. One roll of black and one of white. They threw in a >roll of red as a show special. >Would this be the same stuff you saw at Osh.? > >The label says: >"silicone >ATOMIC TAPE >just stretch wrap and go" > >"Self bonding- Cutting edge technology- Air tight- Water tight- withstands >700 lb.PSI >Resists 500 degree F.(260 C) insulates 8,000 volts" > >Made in USA, each roll 20 mil 1" wide 12" long > >The label on the back of the pack says: > >RESCUE TAPE (with a trade mark indication) >sales(at)rescuetape.com >877-847-2628 ~ www.rescuetape.com > >www.flyshowproducts.com > >They claim to have the highest quality tape of this type publicly available. >They said they where out of California. > >Happy wrapping, > >Jim in Kelowna > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joa Harrison" <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: non-adhesive stretchy tape > > > > >> >> > > > >>Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that >> >> >sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at >Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire >bundles? > > >>Joa >> >> >>--------------------------------- >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
All... RE: Silicone Fusible Tape Been thinking about this tape and did a quick google search...all the usual electrical houses have it (Radio Shack, Mouser, Newark, etc.) as well as The Home Depot! Guess it's still pretty expensive, tho...$3.99 a 3 foot roll at the Shack...Home depot has it for $4.99 a roll...didn't say how long...and the 3M 70 version (which I am familiar with) is $35 for a 30 foot roll. Good to see it in red and black as well as the gray color I am used to. Good stuff, though...used it to seal connections and prevent possible cross contamination of pharmaceutical ingredients when equipment was used for more than one product. BTW...you can request a free sample from this manufacturer: http://www.mocap.com/silicone_tape.asp I'm not, nor have I ever been, affiliated with any of the above companies...or any companies at all anymore since I retired! ) Harley Harley wrote: > >Morning, Jim... > >After checking out their website www.rescuetape.com I'd have to say that >it is indeed what we've been discussing. I was not aware it came in >colors, though. I've been using the plain ol' gray stuff for about 20 >years (first ran into it in a former life as control system designer for >a pharmaceutical company...unique and VERY expensive back then!) > >Harley Dixon > >Jim Jewell wrote: > > > >> >>Hello Joa, >> >>I have a package of two rolls of tape in front of me that I bought at the >>EAA Arlington event. One roll of black and one of white. They threw in a >>roll of red as a show special. >>Would this be the same stuff you saw at Osh.? >> >>The label says: >>"silicone >>ATOMIC TAPE >>just stretch wrap and go" >> >>"Self bonding- Cutting edge technology- Air tight- Water tight- withstands >>700 lb.PSI >>Resists 500 degree F.(260 C) insulates 8,000 volts" >> >>Made in USA, each roll 20 mil 1" wide 12" long >> >>The label on the back of the pack says: >> >>RESCUE TAPE (with a trade mark indication) >>sales(at)rescuetape.com >>877-847-2628 ~ www.rescuetape.com >> >>www.flyshowproducts.com >> >>They claim to have the highest quality tape of this type publicly available. >>They said they where out of California. >> >>Happy wrapping, >> >>Jim in Kelowna >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Joa Harrison" <flyasuperseven(at)yahoo.com> >>To: >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: non-adhesive stretchy tape >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>>Anybody know the name and maybe a place to buy the stretchy tape that >>> >>> >>> >>> >>sticks to itself (really well) without adhesive? They had it on demo at >>Oshkosh and it was pretty impressive. Anybody use it for large wire >>bundles? >> >> >> >> >>>Joa >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 13, 2004
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
In a message dated 8/12/04 12:10:58 PM Central Daylight Time, dan(at)rvproject.com writes: > > > Uni-wrap silicone tape. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/uniwrap.php > > You get better value in the roll from Spruce than you do from B&C. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I used this stuff with excellent results- also very handy for wrapping around fuel lines where they are secured to brackets, anti-chafe for scat tube etc. $30 for 30' roll. Go to: http://www.mcmaster.com/ and type "76455A35 " into the search window. From The PossumWorks in TN Mark -6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
Now how could I have forgotten McMaster Carr! Used them all the time when I was working...just not much since I retired...have to get used to going to their site first! Harley Fiveonepw(at)aol.com wrote: >I used this stuff with excellent results- also very handy for wrapping around >fuel lines where they are secured to brackets, anti-chafe for scat tube etc. >$30 for 30' roll. > >Go to: http://www.mcmaster.com/ > >and type "76455A35 " into the search window. > >>From The PossumWorks in TN >Mark -6A > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries
> > >Bob- > >What about failure of the power line to the regulator or failure of the >regulator itself? Regulators have two options: (1) fail in ov condition whereupon we expect the ov protection system to take the alternator off line. This generates an immediate lv condition which we expect to see annunciated by the lv warning system. (2) fail in a lv condition which immediately illuminates the lv warning light. In either case, when the lv condition is noted, one takes steps, depending on the architecture of the system to bring standby alternators on line and/or to manipulate controls so as to minimize loads on batteries such that comfortable continued flight to intended destination is assured. There is no reason to be unaware of an alternator failure such that the event progresses into an electrical emergency. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag help on juliet
> >Is there an automotive application (or part number) for such a two way >flasher that I could look for the next time I'm in the auto wrecker's? >thanks >Ken Virtually every manufacturer that builds automotive flashers has a part number . . . there are dozens. They're so cheap new, why take the time to dig around in the junk hoping to find one that's suited to this task. The biggest driver is that they be of the sold state timer/high current spdt relay type. You're not likely to find this in an automobile. Here's one on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7914574481&category=33710 Bob . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
> >All... > >RE: Silicone Fusible Tape B&C has 36" rolls for $2.00 Less than the going rate of $1/ft. See http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?9X358218#S894 Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: non-adhesive stretchy tape
>>B&C has 36" rolls for $2.00<< Great! That's the high temp version, too...some of the lower cost versions are only rated at 250 deg. F. and 300% stretch ... not sure what the stretch factor is on this one, (they go up to 800%) but the price and temp are right! Harley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > >> >>All... >> >>RE: Silicone Fusible Tape >> >> > > B&C has 36" rolls for $2.00 > Less than the going rate of $1/ft. > > See http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?9X358218#S894 > > Bob . . . > > >--- > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E-bus Alternate Feed - Fuse
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Clinchy, Dave" <clinchd(at)losrios.edu>
Hi Bob and Listers, I'm reading the 'Connection and planning my wiring based on your z11 diagram. But I noticed the alternate feed for the E-bus, in drawing z11, does not show any fuse or fuse link as is shown in the figures in section 17 that discuss the principles of the e-bus. Am I missing something? Thanks Dave Clinchy RV7, Trying to learn how to keep the smoke in the wires! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Elevating the state of our art . . .
> > >Point taken. I am sorry. I had assumed that the file was already on >your site and that you were just pointing it out to the requester, >assuming that you would have originally saved it in a relatively >universal format when you put it there in the first place. I should >have known that you would have gone out of your way to find one and put >it there when he asked for it - I don't know how you find the time to do >all you do. > >Regarding the others who answered/chastised me, I have not upgraded >beyond 98 for the simple reason that the newer versions do not do >anything more that I need. In fact, 98 doesn't do anything more than >the original LT version that I need. The only reason I have that >version is because that is what was available when I bought it. > >And, yes, I can now read the file just fine. > >Thank You, > >Dick Tasker No biggie my friend. I received a couple of direct e-mails from folks with their shorts in bunch about what they perceived as an attack on my good will. I reminded them that 99% of strife in the world is founded on mis-communication and/or ignorance of simple-ideas. All things considered, I found the incident delightful. Five or six years ago when I began to offer the CAD drawings and applications that would edit them, conversation about utilization of the drawings on the list was VERY rare. Today were having conversation on CAD topics to discuss which versions of any particular application are suited to the task! In my mind, this is a quantum leap forward. If some one jumps on me next week about using polylines versus solids in the generation of certain shapes in my drawings, I'll be ecstatic! I understand and agree about capabilities of various "improvements" in CAD programs. Nothing I do cannot be accomplished by AutoCAD LT V1.0 but I've invested $thousands$ in upgrades just to keep lines of CAD communication open with my customers. It's one of the prices we pay for progress. I'll suggest inconveniences are minuscule compared to power that now resides on our desktops. I could not do 1/10th of what I accomplish without these computers and the programs they run. I bought my first computer 15 years ago (Used Kaypro II for $1700). If someone told me then that by the year 2004 I would have owned several dozen machines, currently own 8-10 computers and personally expend $50,000 on computers and software, I would have accused them suffering several ugly maladies of the gray- matter. None the less, that prediction would have come to pass. Further, return on investment has been huge. Don't give these little kerfuffles much attention. They're inevitable components of any leading-edge endeavor. Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Switches
> > >Hi Bob, > >In a recent reply about switches, you said: > > My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer, > three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole, > three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the > 'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of > one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE > which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at: > > http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf > >My question is how could you tell just by looking at the info in the >catalog that it is a progressive transfer switch? Are all 4 pole, three >position, switches progressive transfer? Unless a switch comes with your >standardized numbering system, I'm lost. Check out Chapter 11 on switches, specifically table 11-1 where I describe a convention for describing the action of toggle switches. The convention is a little different in the digikey listing but still obvious. A 2-10 option is cited as double pole, three position, on-on-on. The middle "on" implies the progressive transfer action as opposed to a synchronous transfer switch like a 2-7 where the description is on-off-on. Compare the 2-10 description with the functionality described in the switch listing in the Digikey catalog for a 7411 switch. Digikey does their spring loaded positions a little different. I use parens around the momentary positions like for a 2-50 switch having on-on-(on) operation. This same action in a miniature C&K 7413 switch is described as on-on-mom. Does this help? Bob . . . --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Really good deal on silicone rubber tape
See http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42891&item=3833440686&rd=1 He has two offerings . . . a lot of ten rolls and another lot of 9 single rolls. $7 for a 30' roll + $3 shipping is a really good deal. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Really good deal on silicone rubber tape
> > >See > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42891&item=3833440686&rd=1 > >He has two offerings . . . a lot of ten rolls and another lot of 9 single >rolls. $7 for a 30' roll + $3 shipping is a really good deal. Boy, that disappeared fast! I note this morning that all the single rolls in his offering are sold. You might drop him a not and see if he has any more. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Records" <records(at)socal.rr.com>
Subject: Clear Heat Shrink
Date: Aug 14, 2004
Does anybody know of a source of clear heat shrink? Thanks David Europa XS Tri-Gear -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of sjhdcl(at)kingston.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heat Shrink Bob, Do you prefer double walled heat shrink over single walled? I have used both and lean towards double walled. Do you know a source for double walled heat shrink in white? Steve RV7A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2004
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: E-bus Alternate Feed - Fuse
> >Hi Bob and Listers, > > >I'm reading the 'Connection and planning my wiring based on your z11 >diagram. But I noticed the alternate feed for the E-bus, in drawing z11, >does not show any fuse or fuse link as is shown in the figures in >section 17 that discuss the principles of the e-bus. Am I missing >something? Something folks need to be aware of for ALL the diagrams in the 'Connection and in many articles I publish. They are illustrative and demonstrative of simple-ideas. They are intended to offer the beginnings of failure tolerant, user friendly systems with architectures tuned to the perceived mission of the airplane. They are not intended to be wire-book pages that describe a bag of parts to buy and install in your airplane. The values and sizes of things are illustrations only . . . and may need to be adjusted for your particular installation. Yes, you are "missing something" . . . you need to sift through all the simple-ideas offered and select those which apply to your mission for design and fabrication of your airplane. The fact that a fuse isn't indicated in some sketch discussing system architecture doesn't mean that a simple-idea about overload protection of some feeder at the bus shouldn't be part of your consideration. My goal in the production of the 'Connection and companion website is to offer lots of simple-ideas along with examples of how each idea can serve your mission. I leave it up to you to make the final decision about which ideas are gathered together in satisfaction of YOUR design philosophy for your airplane. It's okay if this wasn't what you want/need. There a numerous cook-books and factory suggested wiring diagrams that service the market for hook-it-up-like-this-and-trust- me-it-will-work designs. These are largely patterned after the decades old ideas offered by certified aviation. For many, if not most OBAM aircraft builders, these approaches suffice. They've become the devil-we-know component of system design . . . and that's okay too.


July 26, 2004 - August 14, 2004

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-dj