AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-dm
September 07, 2004 - September 20, 2004
proportional to the resistance of the circuit and at any particular time
this is certainly true."
And one should answer, "...Yes, but Ohm's Law does not state that the
current through the circuit is directly proportional to the applied voltage
and inversely proportional to the resistance of the circuit for one set of
data. It presumes to descibe a relationship between ALL the data. That's why
they call it Ohm's Law instead of Ohm's Pretty-Good-Rule-of-Thumb." Don't
panic! Ohm's Law is not "wrong".....it just doesn't apply to certain things,
like diodes, inductors, capacitors, mosfets, arc lamps, cookies, shoes,
ships, sealing wax, cabbages, kings and filament lamps.
That's enough blathering from me,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Mankind faces a cross-roads.
One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.
The other, to total extinction.
Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly."
--Woody Allen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan & Kari Olsen" <olsen25(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
Greetings,
I am new to this group and was referred here by some fellow Lancair
builders from the Lancair Mailing List.
Last Friday I was happily flying my Lancair 320 from Colorado to the
Lancair factory fly-in when I entered actual IMC. I encountered a few
light snow showers in the clouds when the P-static started in. The
usual cracking and buzzing in the headsets, hair standing on end, etc.
The encounters lasted only 30-60 seconds or so. On the first encounter
my TruTrak DigiFlight II autopilot disengaged. When I looked at it the
display was blank but the circuit breaker had not blown. I cycled power
to the autopilot and only the LCD backlight would come on. At this time
I discovered that the VM1000 engine instrumentation system had frozen.
The display was showing all the parameters as they had been but nothing
would move or react to changes. Cycled power to this and it worked
again.
A couple minutes later another P-static encounter. This time the VM1000
started displaying garbage and then blank. Power cycle to the VM1000
did nothing - it was dead. The Jim Frantz AOA also started going nuts
and then just quit. I also discovered that the Ray Allen pitch trim
indicator (LED type) quit, although the trim servo still worked.
All through this the UPS Apollo transponder, GPS/COM and NAV/COM kept
working flawlessly. I quickly contacted center for a 180 out of the IMC
and amended flight plan to get me back in the clear and on the ground.
A few minutes after back in the clear and the AOA began working again
but everything else that had died remained dead.
So, now I have a couple problems:
1) get the broken equipment fixed; and
2) figure out how to prevent this from happening again
I talked with Jim Younkin at TruTrak and he has a good idea of what the
problem is with the autopilot (discrete part that they have recently
discovered is not meeting spec in terms of rapid rising voltage
transients). It's already on its way to Jim. The folks at VisionMicro
don't work on Fridays, so I have no answer there yet.
What concerns me the most is the prevention part of this. Because my
plane is made of e-glass, static wicks are not an option. Can any of
you give me pointers on what I might do to protect the sensitive
electronic gear in the future, besides avoid flying through snow?
Better grounding? Chokes inline with some of the lines? Zener diodes?
It is interesting to me that some of the equipment worked like a charm
through this all. The avionics stack and LCD clock/OAT/volts.
Basically, all of the "certified" gear worked flawlessly and the
"experimental" equipment crapped out.
I am also very interested in the experience others have had in IMC. I
have only had my 320 in IMC twice. Once in warm, wet clouds and rain
with no problems or static at all. This time in cold, snowy clouds.
Unless I can put my finger on something that can protect the gear, I
will have almost no confidence to take it in any IMC - warm or cold.
I look forward to your replies.
Best Regards,
Dan Olsen
Lancair 320, N320DK
Fort Collins, CO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Re: Re; Electrical Education |
Just because the resistive element is non-linear doesn't mean that ohm's
law doesn't apply. It just means that you cannot apply it exactly like
you can apply it to a linear element (which doesn't actually exist in
the real world).
If we use your logic, then ohm's law only applies to theoretical
elements. Any resistive element that I have ever come across in real
life has a temperature coefficient. If we apply a voltage to it, it
will dissipate some power which will change its temperature and
therefore its resistance. This means, according to your logic, that
ohm's law does not apply to it. If so, then where and when does it
apply? Where do you draw the line?
My contention is that ohm's law applies to any resistive load - linear
or non-linear. The results are just complicated by the fact that you
cannot take a measurement at any one temperature and expect it to give
you the same answer at some other temperature - whether that temperature
be externally generated or internally generated.
Dick Tasker
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Sorry, Eric, but David is correct on this one.
>>
>>
>
>Richard, I stick with my wild blathering....
>
>
>
>>An incandescent light does indeed follow Ohm's law.
>>
>>
>
>Only if you use Brian's busted calculator....
>
>
>
>>What it doesn't do is remain the same resistance as it heats up -
>>
>>
>
>Then it does not follow Ohm's Law.
>
>
>
>>but that doesn't mean that ohms law doesn't hold at any given resistance.
>>
>>
>
>Yes it does.
>
> >Ohm's law doesn't say anything about linearity of a load -
>
>Ohm's Law is a "Linear" equation in a non-linear problem.
>
>
>
>>only that at any particular set of R, I and E they will follow the
>>
>>
>equation.
>
>As I mentioned.....perhaps at an instant in time (derivative t of a more
>complex equation.)
>
>Here are three aids to explain what is happening:
>
>1) Physics is not math. This usually takes some kind of undergraduate Zen
>epiphany to understand. If you think that the process of doing algebra and
>balancing the equation on a particular set of E, I, and R means
>something...then you do not yet understand grasshopper.
>
>2) The Stephan-Boltzmann law "Radiation is proportional to the forth power
>of temperature", correctly describes the E/I characteristics of filament
>lamps. Google this stuff if you dare. So do the S-B Law and Ohm's Law
>describe the same Physics?
>
>3) A real-world approach---Imagine having a filament lamp on your experiment
>bench. Can you set the power supply voltage, measure the cold lamp
>resistance, and use Ohm's Law to calculate the current you will get when you
>turn on the light? Try it--if you succeed then Ohms' Law might apply to the
>situation.
>
>Some will say, "...Yes, but Ohm's Law states that the current through the
>circuit is directly proportional to the applied voltage and inversely
>proportional to the resistance of the circuit and at any particular time
>this is certainly true."
>
>And one should answer, "...Yes, but Ohm's Law does not state that the
>current through the circuit is directly proportional to the applied voltage
>and inversely proportional to the resistance of the circuit for one set of
>data. It presumes to descibe a relationship between ALL the data. That's why
>they call it Ohm's Law instead of Ohm's Pretty-Good-Rule-of-Thumb." Don't
>panic! Ohm's Law is not "wrong".....it just doesn't apply to certain things,
>like diodes, inductors, capacitors, mosfets, arc lamps, cookies, shoes,
>ships, sealing wax, cabbages, kings and filament lamps.
>
>That's enough blathering from me,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>Phone (508) 764-2072
>Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
>"Mankind faces a cross-roads.
> One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.
>The other, to total extinction.
>Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly."
>
>--Woody Allen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul <pwilson(at)climber.org> |
| Subject: | Alternator question |
I have a '96 Ford truck and took the alternator to a repair shop where the unit
was installed on a test console. Result high volts and worn brushes. I watched
the guy do the service. The regulator is a small module that screws on the
back of the alternator.
Is this what the talk is all about when refering to the internal regulator on
Ford alternators? If so is this style a candidate for an external regulator?
Thanks, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Starter guard ID |
Does anyone know the ID of the starter button guards? I'm going to machine
one into my instrument panel, but don't have one handy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
"Because my plane is made of e-glass, static wicks are not an option." I
don't understand why wicks won't work.
Perhaps composite (non-metal) aircraft have a problem with built-up static
electricity not flowing aft to where the wicks are normally located. If the
static just sits and builds in various places until it gets to a really high
voltage and starts arcing into your on-board equipment, then it would seem
you really need some way to strategically place some wire mesh or wires,
that are linked and run aft to discharge wicks. In other words, seems like
there should be a "ground system" that will bleed static away from your
electronics racks and aft to the wick(s).
- Anecdote: The A-7D had a severe P static problem that rendered our
UHF communications unusable, usually in dry cirrus clouds around 20,000'.
DRY is the key word - ice crystals (snow in your case). Static electricity
build up (& fires during ground refueling, for example) is always worse in
cold, dry conditions. Humid conditions, on the other hand, provide a
natural environment for bleed off of static.
. . . . . -- The solution to the A-7D problem was to add grounding/bonding
straps between certain aluminum skin panels - even though it was an aluminum
plane, the extensive anti-corrosion painting of most parts did not allow
good metal-to-metal bonding, so static would build up on a panel until it
could jump the air gap between panels (causing the P static noice in our
receivers). It was especially bad in the vertical stabilizer where some of
our comm antennas were located up on top. When the fleet was modified, we
never had another case of radio noise from static.
. . . . .-- It would seem that some "bonding" scheme could be done in your
airplane to bleed static elec away from criticl areas - hopefull to be
dumped overboard with static wicks.
Getting the manufacturers of the offending equipment to "fix" them is a good
objective, if they will. Sounds like another DO-160 design issue. 'Lectric
Bob advocates leaning on such manufacturers to "get it right".
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan & Kari Olsen" <olsen25(at)comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim
indicator
>
> Greetings,
>
> I am new to this group and was referred here by some fellow Lancair
> builders from the Lancair Mailing List.
>
> Last Friday I was happily flying my Lancair 320 from Colorado to the
> Lancair factory fly-in when I entered actual IMC. I encountered a few
> light snow showers in the clouds when the P-static started in. The
> usual cracking and buzzing in the headsets, hair standing on end, etc.
> The encounters lasted only 30-60 seconds or so. On the first encounter
> my TruTrak DigiFlight II autopilot disengaged. When I looked at it the
> display was blank but the circuit breaker had not blown. I cycled power
> to the autopilot and only the LCD backlight would come on. At this time
> I discovered that the VM1000 engine instrumentation system had frozen.
> The display was showing all the parameters as they had been but nothing
> would move or react to changes. Cycled power to this and it worked
> again.
>
> A couple minutes later another P-static encounter. This time the VM1000
> started displaying garbage and then blank. Power cycle to the VM1000
> did nothing - it was dead. The Jim Frantz AOA also started going nuts
> and then just quit. I also discovered that the Ray Allen pitch trim
> indicator (LED type) quit, although the trim servo still worked.
>
> All through this the UPS Apollo transponder, GPS/COM and NAV/COM kept
> working flawlessly. I quickly contacted center for a 180 out of the IMC
> and amended flight plan to get me back in the clear and on the ground.
> A few minutes after back in the clear and the AOA began working again
> but everything else that had died remained dead.
>
> So, now I have a couple problems:
> 1) get the broken equipment fixed; and
> 2) figure out how to prevent this from happening again
>
> I talked with Jim Younkin at TruTrak and he has a good idea of what the
> problem is with the autopilot (discrete part that they have recently
> discovered is not meeting spec in terms of rapid rising voltage
> transients). It's already on its way to Jim. The folks at VisionMicro
> don't work on Fridays, so I have no answer there yet.
>
> What concerns me the most is the prevention part of this. Because my
> plane is made of e-glass, static wicks are not an option. Can any of
> you give me pointers on what I might do to protect the sensitive
> electronic gear in the future, besides avoid flying through snow?
> Better grounding? Chokes inline with some of the lines? Zener diodes?
>
> It is interesting to me that some of the equipment worked like a charm
> through this all. The avionics stack and LCD clock/OAT/volts.
> Basically, all of the "certified" gear worked flawlessly and the
> "experimental" equipment crapped out.
>
> I am also very interested in the experience others have had in IMC. I
> have only had my 320 in IMC twice. Once in warm, wet clouds and rain
> with no problems or static at all. This time in cold, snowy clouds.
> Unless I can put my finger on something that can protect the gear, I
> will have almost no confidence to take it in any IMC - warm or cold.
>
> I look forward to your replies.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dan Olsen
> Lancair 320, N320DK
> Fort Collins, CO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> trim indicator |
| Subject: | Re: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and |
trim indicator
trim indicator
Quick question - for us VFR only slackers, do we need to worry
about precipitation static or any other type of static?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft receivers |
>
>Morning, Franz...
>
>They didn't have much information on the intercom on the Microair
>website, but I found this page at another distributor...it's a PS
>engineering Intercom...here's the manual in pdf format:
>
>http://www.ps-engineering.com/docs/PM501PilotGuide.pdf
I used to sell the Microair and did a better installation
manual. You can download it at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
The Microair has a ptt intercom . . . sometimes called
a "hot mic" intercom. I prefer this style for noisy
airplanes. No vox adjustment hence no "pecking" of the
audio gate on ambient noise . . . no clipping of first
word.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter guard ID |
>
>Does anyone know the ID of the starter button guards? I'm going to machine
>one into my instrument panel, but don't have one handy.
If you're referring to the deep bezel that screws to the
mounting bushing of the pushbutton, see lower left corner
of last page of:
http://www.hmcs.com.cn/Grayhill/Series_30_button.pdf
B&C stocks this guard and a n.o. 30 series push-button
to go with it.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft receivers |
Bob...
I just ordered a Microair combo kit from OxAero...actually drop shipped
from Microair in Australia......it includes the VOX intercom that I sent
the pdf file for...
Here's the link to OxAero...MicroAir has the same listing on their
site...it was just a little cheaper from Jim...
http://www.oxaero.com/Microair-ComboKits.asp
Harley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Morning, Franz...
>>
>>They didn't have much information on the intercom on the Microair
>>website, but I found this page at another distributor...it's a PS
>>engineering Intercom...here's the manual in pdf format:
>>
>>http://www.ps-engineering.com/docs/PM501PilotGuide.pdf
>>
>>
>
> I used to sell the Microair and did a better installation
> manual. You can download it at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
>
> The Microair has a ptt intercom . . . sometimes called
> a "hot mic" intercom. I prefer this style for noisy
> airplanes. No vox adjustment hence no "pecking" of the
> audio gate on ambient noise . . . no clipping of first
> word.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>---
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | echristley(at)nc.rr.com.autopilot.and.trim.indicator |
| Subject: | Re: P-static blew my VM1000, |
autopilot and trim indicator
indicator
----- Original Message -----
From: David Carter <dcarter(at)datarecall.net>
Date: Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my
VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator
> . . . . .-- It would seem that some "bonding"
scheme could be done
> in your
> airplane to bleed static elec away from criticl
areas - hopefull to be
> dumped overboard with static wicks.
>
There are conductive epoxies. Would it be prudent
to use some such as a final barrier layer in a
composite plane? How about some graphite added to
the final leveling slurry?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | Aircraft receivers |
Thanks,
it sounds like its quality equipment and worth the consideration,
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft receivers
>
>Morning, Franz...
>
>They didn't have much information on the intercom on the Microair
>website, but I found this page at another distributor...it's a PS
>engineering Intercom...here's the manual in pdf format:
>
>http://www.ps-engineering.com/docs/PM501PilotGuide.pdf
I used to sell the Microair and did a better installation
manual. You can download it at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
The Microair has a ptt intercom . . . sometimes called
a "hot mic" intercom. I prefer this style for noisy
airplanes. No vox adjustment hence no "pecking" of the
audio gate on ambient noise . . . no clipping of first
word.
Bob . . .
---
---
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
No need to worry for VFR.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>; ;
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim
indicator
trim indicator
>
> Quick question - for us VFR only slackers, do we need to worry
> about precipitation static or any other type of static?
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Electrical Education |
>Hello Bob Nuckolls,
>The slide switch at this URL
> http://ottoeng.com/control/slideswitch.htm
>has these listed electrical ratings at 28 V DC:
>
>Resistive: 5 Amp. Inductive: 3 Amp. Lamp: 1 Amp. Low level: 10 mAmp @30mv.
>
>Can you please help me better understand the significance of these
>ratings? The following questions come to my mind:
>
>1) Wouldnt an incandescent lamp (assumed) be a resistive load and have the
>same rating as given for the resistive circuit load?
A lamp IS a pure resistance (i.e., exhibits only very small capacitive or
inductive reactance components) however, lamp filaments have
a room temperature resistance that is a small fraction that of its
normal operating current. For example, a #327 lamp that draws .040A at
28v (700 ohms operating) has a room temperature resistance of about 70
ohms. This means that the instant contacts controlling this lamp close,
inrush current will be right at 10x or 400 mA. It falls to 40 mA in a
matter of milliseconds but the inrush is real, measurable and
demonstrable more stressful than a purely resistive load of 400 mA. This
particular manufacturer had de-rated his product by 5:1 for lamp loads .
. . some are more conservative and would de-rate 10:1.
>2) I understand the concept of higher initial inrush current affecting the
>lamp current rating, but wouldnt that apply to any resistive load and not
>just the lamp?
If it's a pure resistor . . . of say 700 ohms, then make, carry and
break currents are constant at 40 mA irrespective of the measurement in
time.
Pitot heaters are another example of thermodynamics of some "resistors".
A 100W pitot tube draws rated power at operating temperature (about 7.4
Amps at 100-125C). However, when you first turn it on, the low
temperature resistance can be half the operating resistance for an
inrush current of 15 amps. We're dealing with a low reactance, nearly
pure resistance under all conditions . . . it's just a resistance value
that doesn't sit still!
>3) Why would the switch need a low level rating? If it can handle the
>larger current loads couldnt it easily handle any small current load?
Some manufacturers will clad their silver alloy switch contacts with
gold. Gold does not tarnish with age and environment and is a superior
contact material when currents are low (less than 100 ma). However, if
you expect to use a gold clad switch for small signal switching, do not
test it at the full current ratings. We had a batch of gold-clad relays
pass a receiving inspection test at max loads only to have them fail
when used in small signal applications at a later time. The high test
current burns off the gold and turns the relay into a power only device.
In this case, gold contacts are optional for using the switch at very
low power levels.
Examples of low signal applications include audio and navigation
signals. Suppose this switch were used to drive inputs to a solid state
trim controller where contact currents never exceeded a few milliamps .
. . you'd definitely want gold cladding on the contacts to insure
predictable operation over the life of the switch. However, if one
purchases a working used switch with hopes of using it in a low-level
application, you want to ask how the switch was used in its first
life . . . the gold may be gone by now.
Another example of unique combinations of load versus contact
behavior is illustrated here. A subminature switch is used
to sense full travel of a mechanism and light a pair of lamps.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/sm_switch_cutaway.jpg
With as few as 200 hours on the airframe, these contacts
in series with the switch would go open and the lights would
not come on. Here you see the "failed" contacts.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/openckt.jpg
Turns out that there was not enough energy flowing through
these contacts to keep them clean (0.08A) but the lamp inrush
current was too high (1.0A) for gold contacts. So
we wired up this little series circuit as a "contact saver".
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ContactSaver.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ContactSaver_2.jpg
Changing contacts to gold and installing the "contact saver"
produced the following changes to system operation:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ContactSaver_1.jpg
Note that contacts are closed and stable before the
contact saver triggers. The contacts don't have to
switch the 1A inrush of the pair of lamps and the gold
plating insures contact performance in spite of
low operating currents.
This is a case where failure of a $2 switch wasn't
really a "failure" but a mis-application of hardware.
None-the-less, it triggers a kilodollar maintenance
event on an airplane that takes the airplane out of
service for at least half a day. Clearly the cost-benefit
ratio of adding the contact saver and modifying switch
material was attractive.
>4) Is the inductive circuit current rating lower than the resistive
>circuit rating because of the voltage spike caused by opening the
switch?
Yes, although this is easily mitigated as you suggest
below . . .
>5) Couldn't that inductive circuit current rating for the switch be higher
>if one used a diode connected to ground across the inductive coil in the
>circuit?
You betcha . . . An inductive load with a spike catcher is about the
easiest load there is for set of contacts to control. Inductors have a
delayed build up of current so contacts have a chance to stop bouncing
before currents reach max load. A spike catcher diode eliminates 95% of
arcing on contact opening. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
>6) Would those current load ratings improve, be less, or the same if the
>switch were used in a 12 V DC circuit instead of a 28 V DC circuit?
Slightly improved but not enough to make much difference to you. Keep in
mind that all ratings for switches and relays are predicated on
laboratory tests where expected "life" of the contacts are given tens of
thousands of operations. If you're selecting a switch for a tool of some
kind, then maintenance issues have a significant return-on-investment
calculation predicated on cost of replacement, replacement labor and
downtime costs for the tool. These are useful exercises when designing
air transport category and military aircraft. Switches in your airplane
are going to die of environmental and effects of age before they'll
succumb to service stresses.
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
>
>Many thanks for your help from an electrical neophyte.
>
My pleasure sir.
I've been jousting with switch and relay contact issues at RAC for
several years. I've run across a number of useful documents on the 'net
that I'll recommend for others
Applying Precision Switches
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/basicswitches/technical/010172.pdf
Low Energy Switching
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/basicswitches/technical/001008_3.pdf
Here's a fairly lucid description of switch/relay operation and a
description of various contact materials. There are a few errors in
this piece but nothing serious . . .
http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/mech_eng_rtia/idapm4w.html
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Aircraft receivers |
>
>
>Thanks,
>it sounds like its quality equipment and worth the consideration,
>Franz
By the way, I found a Microair 760 harness and installation manual
kit left over from that marketing effort. It's available first come,
first serve for half price: $27.50
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator question |
>
> I have a '96 Ford truck and took the alternator to a repair shop where
> the unit was installed on a test console. Result high volts and worn
> brushes. I watched the guy do the service. The regulator is a small
> module that screws on the back of the alternator.
> Is this what the talk is all about when refering to the internal
> regulator on Ford alternators? If so is this style a candidate for an
> external regulator?
> Thanks, Paul
If, when the "built on" regulator is dismounted, there are exposed terminals
that might accept extended wires, you can probably use a remotely mounted
regulator. You'll need to be sure that the regulator matches the field
wiring for the alternator. Some field terminals pull up to bus for max
output, others pull to ground. All "aircraft" style regulators pull
up to bus.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>I am in process of installing International Electronics iInstruments and
>am connecting wiring to the panel mounted warning lights (B&C) from the
>instruments (EGT/CHT and Fuel). The installation instructions specify
>that current be no higher that 1/10 amp on the FUEL, and 2/10 amp on the
>EGT. The signal from both instruments creates a ground. What is the best
>way to limit the current from the buss to these lights? A resistor in
>series? And is the R=E/I the way to calculate the size of this resistor?
>(14/.020=700) ? 700 ohm resistor? I am also wiring a "starter engaged"
>warning light from the starter "I" terminal. Does this lead need a
>resistor before it gets to the warning light?
>Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
No, just select lamps that do not exceed the 100 mA and 200 mA limits
cited. In this case, the #330 lamp will fit the B&C fixtures and
draws 80 milliamperes.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Electrical Education |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >1) Wouldnt an incandescent lamp (assumed) be a resistive load and have the
> >same rating as given for the resistive circuit load?
>
> A lamp IS a pure resistance (i.e., exhibits only very small capacitive or
> inductive reactance components) however, lamp filaments have
> a room temperature resistance that is a small fraction that of its
> normal operating current. For example, a #327 lamp that draws .040A at
> 28v (700 ohms operating) has a room temperature resistance of about 70
> ohms. This means that the instant contacts controlling this lamp close,
> inrush current will be right at 10x or 400 mA. It falls to 40 mA in a
> matter of milliseconds but the inrush is real, measurable and
> demonstrable more stressful than a purely resistive load of 400 mA.
>
I think you meant to say "than a purely resistive load of 40 mA" in the
last sentence, not "400 ma". A load of 400 mA that is resistive is the
same as any other 400 mA resistive load, but the load that starts at 400
mA and goes down to 40 mA is a whole lot harder on a switch than one
that starts and stays at 40 mA (as you said). Otherwise right on.
> This
> particular manufacturer had de-rated his product by 5:1 for lamp loads .
> . . some are more conservative and would de-rate 10:1.
>
>
Dick Tasker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AMP crimp tool info |
The tools I have are as following;
PIDG 10-12 AMP# 59239-4-M (3 levels of insulation crimp adjustment)
PIDG 14-16 & PIDG 18-22 AMP #59250 (dual head and 4 levels of insulation
adjustment)
The typical Blue or Red insulated terminals.
PIDG 20-24 & PIDG 22-26 AMP #59275 (dual head and 4 levels of insulation
adjustment)
This one also only works with the much smaller terminals Typically with
White or the smaller Yellow (not as common but DigiKey has had some in the
past as I needed for special applications).
Go to www.amp.com and input the above tool numbers for detailed info.
Using the#59250 tool as an example:
The die crimp closed dims is hard to measure (there is a terminal locating
lever in the way of my calipers) but 0.121 is close for the center of the
wire side of the die when fully closed. The width of the die is 0.210 and
this constrains the terminal during crimping to force compression on all
four sides.
The wire dies are formed in an arc ( , the insulation dies are different
and look like -
-.
Only one side shown and one rotated 90 deg from the other example to allow
typeing examples.
Measurments for the insulation part of the die is the same for the width and
as follows for the height fully closed.
Position #1 0.085"
Position #2 0.097"
Position #3 0.124"
Position #4 0.146"
As you can see there is quite a range of insulation thicknesses allowed for.
After crimping a #22 wire the following measurements were made.
Uncrimped terminal insulation diameter 0.193"
Wire outer diameter with insulation 0.052"
Crimped with insulation die set to #1.
Width of wire crimp 0.198"
Height of wire crimp 0.121"
Width of insulation crimp 0.235"
Height of insulation crimp 0.135"
Inner metal sleeve crimped to wire insulation contact 360deg. like -O-
Width of insulation crimp 0.227"
Height of insulation crimp 0.152"
Inner metal sleeve NOT well formed around insulation and no real contact or
support.
But this setting is for much thicker insulation on wire nad not expecte3d to
result in a proper crimp.
ALL the above info is quick and dirty and subject to mis reading and or mis
typing.
My point is care is needed to be sure you are getting a good crimp
regardless of the tool used.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cleveland Crimp Tool Mystery Solved .NOT .
>
> On the insulation grip side of the AMP tool its not the one dimension its
> the overall shape of the die.
>
> You get =O= vs around the insulation.
>
> On the wire side of the crimper, Dies that are designed for the common
vinyl
> insulated terminals have a larger min die opening vs the Nylon PIDG
terminal
> tools as the Nylon insulation is thinner. (not the only difference but one
> that is simple to see just by looking). The copper part of the terminal is
> very different between the common and the PIDG types.
>
> Also the AMP tools hold the terminal on all 4 sides so not only is there a
> top to bottom clamping but the sides are supported (to prevent the
otherwise
> resulting increase in width) so you get copper compression all around.
This
> is a feature not found on any of the lower cost Tools I have seen. This
> results in a very controlled squeeze that insures a HI quality result.
Just
> what you could expect from a $500 to $600 tool.
>
> As Bob has suggested its possible for a reliable result from a much lower
> cost tool.
>
> I will look next time I am in my hanger and provide the AMP part numbers
for
> the tools I have. The AMP web site has the specs on these tools. Each Tool
> has the applicable PIDG terminal sizes the dies were designed for so its
> easy to get the right tool.
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cleveland Crimp Tool Mystery Solved .NOT .
>
>
> >
> > Concerning the insulation grip of the asymetrical die tools, I went back
> to the dial caliper and measured the minimum die opening on the insulation
> grip side. Here's the results:
> >
> > Loose grip Cleveland tool: .159
> > Replacement tight grip tool: .149
> > Ideal crimper with 30-579 die .125
> >
> > Looks like the Cleveland tool's insulation grip on the 22awg wire is
> somewhat loose compared to the ideal dies. I'm real curious what the
minimu
> m gaps are on your $600 AMP crimper Bob.
> >
> > Dave Reel
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com> |
| Subject: | P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
Hmm -- so flying through light snow, light enough that conditions are still
VFR, couldn't trigger the same problems?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Carter
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim
indicator
No need to worry for VFR.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>; ;
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim
indicator
trim indicator
>
> Quick question - for us VFR only slackers, do we need to worry
> about precipitation static or any other type of static?
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
Hmmm, sounds like "VFR/scud running" to me. (grins) Dry and cold and ice
crystals are the magic ingrediant. They and the electrons don't care what
you call it, VFR, IFR, MVFR, . . .
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)wcvt.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim
indicator
>
> Hmm -- so flying through light snow, light enough that conditions are
still
> VFR, couldn't trigger the same problems?
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
> Carter
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and
trim
> indicator
>
>
>
> No need to worry for VFR.
>
> David
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>; ;
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and
trim
> indicator
>
>
> trim indicator
> >
> > Quick question - for us VFR only slackers, do we need to worry
> > about precipitation static or any other type of static?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mickey
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mickey Coggins
> > http://www.rv8.ch/
> > #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Koyich" <Ron(at)Koyich.com> |
| Subject: | P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
Re: >>No need to worry for VFR.
David<<
Well, yes, and no - flying in VFR conditions - 1000 and 3 with cold,
dry, snow can produce static of the same sort.
If, by VFR, you're referring to being completely clear of cloud and snow
- no particular need to worry.
The potential for P-Static problems in composite aircraft was raised
early on in their genesis - and, silly me assumed, the problems had
been dealt with somehow.
Seems not.
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter guard ID |
At 11:51 AM 9/7/04, you wrote:
> If you're referring to the deep bezel that screws to the
> mounting bushing of the pushbutton, see lower left corner
> of last page of:
>
> http://www.hmcs.com.cn/Grayhill/Series_30_button.pdf
That's the one. Any idea how I can get to page D-31 of that catalog to see
the dimensions? I want to know how big to make the cup, so my finger will
fit in it. I know, I can just measure my finger, but I figure if there's a
standard I might as well find out what it is.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter guard ID |
>
>At 11:51 AM 9/7/04, you wrote:
>
> > If you're referring to the deep bezel that screws to the
> > mounting bushing of the pushbutton, see lower left corner
> > of last page of:
> >
> > http://www.hmcs.com.cn/Grayhill/Series_30_button.pdf
>
>That's the one. Any idea how I can get to page D-31 of that catalog to see
>the dimensions? I want to know how big to make the cup, so my finger will
>fit in it. I know, I can just measure my finger, but I figure if there's a
>standard I might as well find out what it is.
There are no standards I'm aware of. I've seen devices like this
in a variety of sizes. It's a matter of personal preferences. I searched
their webaite for access to the back pages of the catalog but no joy.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Electrical Education + Corrections (Thanx Richard!) |
>Hello Bob Nuckolls,
>The slide switch at this URL
> http://ottoeng.com/control/slideswitch.htm
>has these listed electrical ratings at 28 V DC:
>
>Resistive: 5 Amp. Inductive: 3 Amp. Lamp: 1 Amp. Low level: 10 mAmp @30mv.
>
>Can you please help me better understand the significance of these
>ratings? The following questions come to my mind:
>
>1) Wouldnt an incandescent lamp (assumed) be a resistive load and have the
>same rating as given for the resistive circuit load?
A lamp IS a pure resistance (i.e., exhibits only very small capacitive or
inductive reactance components) however, lamp filaments have
a room temperature resistance that is a small fraction that of its
normal operating current. For example, a #327 lamp that draws .040A at
28v (700 ohms operating) has a room temperature resistance of about 70
ohms. This means that the instant contacts controlling this lamp close,
inrush current will be right at 10x or 400 mA. It falls to 40 mA in a
matter of milliseconds but the inrush is real, measurable and
demonstrably more stressful than a stable resistive load of 40 mA. This
particular manufacturer had de-rated his product by 5:1 for lamp loads .
. . some are more conservative and would de-rate 10:1.
>2) I understand the concept of higher initial inrush current affecting the
>lamp current rating, but wouldnt that apply to any resistive load and not
>just the lamp?
If it's a stabke resistor . . . of say 700 ohms, then make, carry and
break currents are constant at 40 mA irrespective of the measurement in
time.
Pitot heaters are another example of thermodynamics of unstable
"resistors".
A 100W pitot tube draws rated power at operating temperature (about 7.4
Amps at 100-125C). However, when you first turn it on, the low
temperature resistance value may be half the operating resistance for an
inrush current of 15 amps. We're dealing with a low reactance, nearly
pure resistance under all conditions . . . it's just a resistance value
that doesn't stand still!
>3) Why would the switch need a low level rating? If it can handle the
>larger current loads couldnt it easily handle any small current load?
Some manufacturers will clad their silver alloy switch contacts with
gold. Gold does not tarnish with age and environment and is a superior
contact material when currents are low (less than 100 ma). However, if
you expect to use a gold clad switch for small signal switching, do not
test it at the full current ratings. We had a batch of gold-clad relays
pass a receiving inspection test at max loads only to have them fail
when used in small signal applications at a later time. The high test
current burns off the gold and converts the relay into a power only
device.
In the case of the OTTO grip switch, gold contacts are optional for using
the switch at very low power levels.
Examples of low signal applications include audio and navigation
signals. Suppose this switch were used to drive inputs to a solid state
trim controller where contact currents never exceeded a few milliamps .
. . you'd definitely want gold cladding on the contacts to insure
predictable operation over the life of the switch. However, if one
purchases a working used switch with hopes of using it in a low-level
application, you want to ask how the switch was used in its first
life . . . the gold may be gone by now.
Another example of unique combinations of load versus contact
behavior is illustrated here. A sub-minature switch is used
to sense full travel of a mechanism and illuminate a pair of lamps.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/sm_switch_cutaway.jpg
With as few as 200 hours on the airframe, these contacts
in series with the switch would go open and the lights would
not come on. Here you see the "failed" contacts.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/openckt.jpg
Turns out that there was not enough energy flowing through
these contacts to keep them clean (0.08A) but the lamp inrush
current was too high (1.0A) for gold contacts. So
we wired up this little series circuit as a "contact saver".
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ContactSaver.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ContactSaver_2.jpg
Changing contacts to gold and installing the "contact saver"
produced the following changes to system operation:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ContactSaver_1.jpg
Note that contacts are closed and stable before the
contact saver triggers. The contacts don't have to
switch the 1A inrush of the pair of lamps and the gold
plating insures contact performance in spite of
low operating currents.
This is a case where failure of a $2 switch wasn't
really a "failure" but a mis-application of hardware.
None-the-less, it triggers a kilodollar maintenance
event on an airplane that takes the airplane out of
service for at least half a day. Clearly the cost-benefit
ratio of adding the contact saver and modifying switch
material was attractive.
>4) Is the inductive circuit current rating lower than the resistive
>circuit rating because of the voltage spike caused by opening the
switch?
Yes, although this is easily mitigated as you suggest
below . . .
>5) Couldn't that inductive circuit current rating for the switch be higher
>if one used a diode connected to ground across the inductive coil in the
>circuit?
You betcha . . . An inductive load with a spike catcher is about the
easiest load there is for set of contacts to control. Inductors have a
delayed build up of current so contacts have a chance to stop bouncing
before currents reach max load. A spike catcher diode eliminates 95% of
arcing on contact opening. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
>6) Would those current load ratings improve, be less, or the same if the
>switch were used in a 12 V DC circuit instead of a 28 V DC circuit?
Slightly improved but not enough to make much difference to you. Keep in
mind that all ratings for switches and relays are predicated on
laboratory tests where expected "life" of the contacts are given tens of
thousands of operations. If you're selecting a switch for a tool of some
kind, then maintenance issues have a significant return-on-investment
calculation predicated on cost of part, replacement labor and
downtime costs for the tool. These are useful exercises when designing
air transport category and military aircraft. Switches in your airplane
are going to die of environmental and effects of age before they'll
succumb to service stresses.
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
>
>Many thanks for your help from an electrical neophyte.
>
My pleasure sir.
I've been jousting with switch and relay contact issues at RAC for
several years. I've run across a number of useful documents on the 'net
that I'll recommend for others
Applying Precision Switches
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/basicswitches/technical/010172.pdf
Low Energy Switching
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/basicswitches/technical/001008_3.pdf
Here's a fairly lucid description of switch/relay operation and a
description of various contact materials. There are a few errors in
this piece but nothing serious . . .
http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/mech_eng_rtia/idapm4w.html
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Terminology Clarification |
Previous posting by Bob Nuckolls:
<>
9/8/204
Hello Bob, In my past experience the term hot mike meant just that every utterance,
breathing, lip smacking, throat clearing, etc. (usually when wearing an
oxygen mask) continuously went out over the intercom with no other action than
making the mouth noise required. No breaking of squelch, no pushing of button
required.
If one has to PTT (or break a squelch level) in order to communicate over the intercom
it would not be considered hot mike.
A typical installation would have 3 modes: A) Hot mike -- selected ON or OFF by
a separate switch. B) A PTT button with the first stage being intercom only (used
for intercom communication when the hot mike switch is in the OFF position)
and C) The second PTT stage being radio transmission activation.
In the tactical jets the PTT button was on the throttle. In the helos the PTT button
was really a Pull-To-Talk trigger button on the cyclic switch. Many's the
time when I pulled that trigger button on the cyclic and wished to hell that
I had multiple .50 cals firing forward out of my helo just like in the good old
days prior to forced transition.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter guard ID |
Hi Richard,
I made my own start button guard.
I made the inside diameter.of the bezel small enough (about 5/16" deep and
9/16" ID) and deep enough that I could not make the switch make electrical
contact with the bezel just caught on the first threads of the switch
itself.
I then adjusted the depth of the button until I could reach the start
position without undue discomfort. In this position it will be difficult to
hit the button without the full intention of actuating the starter.
The dimensions I suggested above
suited the switch I bought. My local electronic supply house had a small
variety to pick from.
Happy finishing,
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter guard ID
>
>
>
>>
>>At 11:51 AM 9/7/04, you wrote:
>>
>> > If you're referring to the deep bezel that screws to the
>> > mounting bushing of the pushbutton, see lower left corner
>> > of last page of:
>> >
>> > http://www.hmcs.com.cn/Grayhill/Series_30_button.pdf
>>
>>That's the one. Any idea how I can get to page D-31 of that catalog to
>>see
>>the dimensions? I want to know how big to make the cup, so my finger will
>>fit in it. I know, I can just measure my finger, but I figure if there's
>>a
>>standard I might as well find out what it is.
>
> There are no standards I'm aware of. I've seen devices like this
> in a variety of sizes. It's a matter of personal preferences. I searched
> their webaite for access to the back pages of the catalog but no joy.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Turboprop and rocket engine alternators/generators |
| From: | sjhdcl(at)kingston.net |
Bob,
Can you point me in a direction to find out more about alternator and
generator applications on turboprops, jets, rocket propulsion, etc.
A typical reciprocating engine has a belt driven or geared alternator
onboard. Specically I'm looking for info on how rocket engines produce the
required electrical needs and backups.
Thank you
Steve
RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Terminology Clarification |
>
>Previous posting by Bob Nuckolls:
>
><a "hot mic" intercom. I prefer this style for noisy
>airplanes. No vox adjustment hence no "pecking" of the
>audio gate on ambient noise . . . no clipping of first
>word.>>
>
>9/8/204
>
>Hello Bob, In my past experience the term hot mike meant just that every
>utterance, breathing, lip smacking, throat clearing, etc. (usually when
>wearing an oxygen mask) continuously went out over the intercom with no
>other action than making the mouth noise required. No breaking of squelch,
>no pushing of button required.
Correct.
>If one has to PTT (or break a squelch level) in order to communicate over
>the intercom it would not be considered hot mike.
Depends on how you wire it. in the manual I produced for
this radio at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/avionics/760imB.pdf
I suggest a ptt version on page 2.1 of wiring diagrams and
then show an optional hot mic version that can be selected off
on page 2.2
>A typical installation would have 3 modes: A) Hot mike -- selected ON or
>OFF by a separate switch. B) A PTT button with the first stage being
>intercom only (used for intercom communication when the hot mike switch is
>in the OFF position) and C) The second PTT stage being radio transmission
>activation.
Sure, one could do that too by making the toggle switch on page 2.2
have three positions: OFF, HOT MIC, and wiring the PTT switches
into the third position.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turboprop and rocket engine alternators/generators |
On Sep 8, 2004, at 2:29 PM, sjhdcl(at)kingston.net wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Can you point me in a direction to find out more about alternator and
> generator applications on turboprops, jets, rocket propulsion, etc.
>
> A typical reciprocating engine has a belt driven or geared alternator
> onboard. Specically I'm looking for info on how rocket engines produce
> the
> required electrical needs and backups.
They use batteries for short-term flights and fuel cells for long-term
flights mostly. They could do it using magnetohydrodynamics but a
secondary APU-like turbine would probably be a better solution. The
problem is that it consumes fuel that would be better used to provide
delta-V.
TANSTAAFL
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Turboprop and rocket engine alternators/generators |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
It strikes me that I have seen both gear and belt driven alternators
on gas turbine/turboprops. I assume the same can be said of turbofans
and turbojets, but at the moment, I can't visualize where the power
takeoff would be located. It can't be too hard since they use electric
motors to spool up.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
> Bob,
>
> Can you point me in a direction to find out more about alternator and
> generator applications on turboprops, jets, rocket propulsion, etc.
>
> A typical reciprocating engine has a belt driven or geared alternator
> onboard. Specically I'm looking for info on how rocket engines produce
> the required electrical needs and backups.
>
> Thank you
> Steve
> RV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Contactor Torque |
I've seen a number of messages regarding ruining the cole-Hersee contactors by
over-torque but the messages never state a correct torque. Presuming one holds
the bottom nut to prevent rotating the terminal, what would be the torque to
apply? The terminals are 5/16-24 thread but are not cadmium plated & who knows
what metal is being used. Looks like copper on the one I got from Vans. Cole-Hersee
hasn't replied to my emails so I'm wondering if someone on the list
knows.
Dave Reel - RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Turboprop and rocket engine alternators/generators |
You're not too far off, most use starter-generators. They're attached to the
gearbox which is typically under the engine. That's why nacelles for most
low/no-bypass turbines have a bulge on the underside.
Greg
> It strikes me that I have seen both gear and belt driven
> alternators on gas turbine/turboprops. I assume the same can
> be said of turbofans and turbojets, but at the moment, I
> can't visualize where the power
> takeoff would be located. It can't be too hard since they
> use electric
> motors to spool up.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Got Lockwasher? |
>
>I need one switch locking washer, you know, the kind with tabs that
>prevent switch rotation in the mounting hole, to complete my panel
>installation. If anyone out there bought a dozen when they were in the
>same situation & could mail me one, drop me an email & I'll send you back
>a buck.
If you can't put your hands on one . . . B&C stocks them and
would probably drop one in an envelope to you for the price of
a phone call.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Contactor Torque |
>
>I've seen a number of messages regarding ruining the cole-Hersee
>contactors by over-torque but the messages never state a correct
>torque. Presuming one holds the bottom nut to prevent rotating the
>terminal, what would be the torque to apply? The terminals are 5/16-24
>thread but are not cadmium plated & who knows what metal is being
>used. Looks like copper on the one I got from Vans. Cole-Hersee hasn't
>replied to my emails so I'm wondering if someone on the list knows.
"Over torque" of the threads isn't the biggest risk, it's twisting
the studs in their plastic insulators. You can avoid this with
the two-wrench approach to tightening. You need to counter-torque
the nut next to the housing while tightening the top nut down on
the terminals. The studs are hard copper. AC43-13 calls out 60-85
inch-pounds for 24,000 psi steel bolts. 50-60 in-lb would be fine
for the contactor studs . . . which is not a lot of force at the
end of a 12" wrench . . . about 5 pounds. Your nut should have
an internal tooth, phosphor-bronze or beryllium-copper lockwasher
under it.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pete & Farrell Rouse" <pete-farrell(at)kc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Turboprop and rocket engine alternators/generators |
To All,
The accessory gear case of the turbine engine is where the starter and other
accessories are located. On the TFE731, the starter is a starter/generator
and does double duty.
The accessory gear case is usually driven off of the high speed spool. On
most engines that I've worked on, it is located at the bottom of the engine,
just behind the fan case or particle separator.
Turbofan engines use electric and air turbine starters; each has its own
drawbacks. I have spent many a day trying to figure out what the start
system was doing on the engine I was working on....
Pete Rouse
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turboprop and rocket engine
alternators/generators
It strikes me that I have seen both gear and belt driven alternators
on gas turbine/turboprops. I assume the same can be said of turbofans
and turbojets, but at the moment, I can't visualize where the power
takeoff would be located. It can't be too hard since they use electric
motors to spool up.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
> Bob,
>
> Can you point me in a direction to find out more about alternator and
> generator applications on turboprops, jets, rocket propulsion, etc.
>
> A typical reciprocating engine has a belt driven or geared alternator
> onboard. Specically I'm looking for info on how rocket engines produce
> the required electrical needs and backups.
>
> Thank you
> Steve
> RV
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim indicator |
I've flown my Glasair Super II in a lot of IMC, but never the dry, snowy
kind (thanks to living in Arkansas). A friend who has the same type
airplane and lives in the north has had similar static problems flying in
snow (he is not IFR-rated) but has not had anything fail. I think I'll
avoid dry snowy conditions whenever I can!
Jim Oberst
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan & Kari Olsen" <olsen25(at)comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: P-static blew my VM1000, autopilot and trim
indicator
>
> Greetings,
>
> I am new to this group and was referred here by some fellow Lancair
> builders from the Lancair Mailing List.
>
> Last Friday I was happily flying my Lancair 320 from Colorado to the
> Lancair factory fly-in when I entered actual IMC. I encountered a few
> light snow showers in the clouds when the P-static started in. The
> usual cracking and buzzing in the headsets, hair standing on end, etc.
> The encounters lasted only 30-60 seconds or so. On the first encounter
> my TruTrak DigiFlight II autopilot disengaged. When I looked at it the
> display was blank but the circuit breaker had not blown. I cycled power
> to the autopilot and only the LCD backlight would come on. At this time
> I discovered that the VM1000 engine instrumentation system had frozen.
> The display was showing all the parameters as they had been but nothing
> would move or react to changes. Cycled power to this and it worked
> again.
>
> A couple minutes later another P-static encounter. This time the VM1000
> started displaying garbage and then blank. Power cycle to the VM1000
> did nothing - it was dead. The Jim Frantz AOA also started going nuts
> and then just quit. I also discovered that the Ray Allen pitch trim
> indicator (LED type) quit, although the trim servo still worked.
>
> All through this the UPS Apollo transponder, GPS/COM and NAV/COM kept
> working flawlessly. I quickly contacted center for a 180 out of the IMC
> and amended flight plan to get me back in the clear and on the ground.
> A few minutes after back in the clear and the AOA began working again
> but everything else that had died remained dead.
>
> So, now I have a couple problems:
> 1) get the broken equipment fixed; and
> 2) figure out how to prevent this from happening again
>
> I talked with Jim Younkin at TruTrak and he has a good idea of what the
> problem is with the autopilot (discrete part that they have recently
> discovered is not meeting spec in terms of rapid rising voltage
> transients). It's already on its way to Jim. The folks at VisionMicro
> don't work on Fridays, so I have no answer there yet.
>
> What concerns me the most is the prevention part of this. Because my
> plane is made of e-glass, static wicks are not an option. Can any of
> you give me pointers on what I might do to protect the sensitive
> electronic gear in the future, besides avoid flying through snow?
> Better grounding? Chokes inline with some of the lines? Zener diodes?
>
> It is interesting to me that some of the equipment worked like a charm
> through this all. The avionics stack and LCD clock/OAT/volts.
> Basically, all of the "certified" gear worked flawlessly and the
> "experimental" equipment crapped out.
>
> I am also very interested in the experience others have had in IMC. I
> have only had my 320 in IMC twice. Once in warm, wet clouds and rain
> with no problems or static at all. This time in cold, snowy clouds.
> Unless I can put my finger on something that can protect the gear, I
> will have almost no confidence to take it in any IMC - warm or cold.
>
> I look forward to your replies.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dan Olsen
> Lancair 320, N320DK
> Fort Collins, CO
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
I have an S-TEC system 55 A/P in my Glasair Super II. When the A/P is in the vertical
speed or altitude-hold mode, and I transmit on my Garmin GNS 530, the
autopilot is affected and my airplane pitches down. If I transmit on my other
radio, an Apollo SL60, I have no such problem. I've tried switching the antennas
between the two radios, and it's still the Garmin that causes the problem.
Both COM antennas are in the rear of the airplane, so the coax runs back past the
pitch servo. The coax is the kind that has an extra metal shield around it.
Since switching antennas didn't change the offending radio, my guess is that
the problem is something else... maybe a bad ground? All avionics are in the
same stack, which is firmly bolted together and also has lots of ground wires
run. The GNS is farther from the A/P than is the Apollo radio.
I need some suggestions on how to go about troubleshooting this arrangement...
where do I start, and what are all the things I should check? I am familiar with
electronics.
Jim Oberst
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
Hi Jim,
Get some copper foil tape and wrap the wire bundle that connects your
pitch servo to the control unit of the STEC 55. Ground the foil on the
panel unit and don't ground it on the servo. Make sure that the foil
tape cobers the wire completely, from connector to connector, no breaks.
The object here is to shield the servo control wires from RFI.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of J.
Oberst
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
<joberst@cox-internet.com>
I have an S-TEC system 55 A/P in my Glasair Super II. When the A/P is
in the vertical speed or altitude-hold mode, and I transmit on my Garmin
GNS 530, the autopilot is affected and my airplane pitches down. If I
transmit on my other radio, an Apollo SL60, I have no such problem.
I've tried switching the antennas between the two radios, and it's still
the Garmin that causes the problem.
Both COM antennas are in the rear of the airplane, so the coax runs back
past the pitch servo. The coax is the kind that has an extra metal
shield around it. Since switching antennas didn't change the offending
radio, my guess is that the problem is something else... maybe a bad
ground? All avionics are in the same stack, which is firmly bolted
together and also has lots of ground wires run. The GNS is farther from
the A/P than is the Apollo radio.
I need some suggestions on how to go about troubleshooting this
arrangement... where do I start, and what are all the things I should
check? I am familiar with electronics.
Jim Oberst
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
S TEC has a new aluminum pitch transducer that eliminates this problem. RF
was apparently getting into the pitch transducer when transmitting.
Paul
>From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:23:35 -0500
>
><joberst@cox-internet.com>
>
>I have an S-TEC system 55 A/P in my Glasair Super II. When the A/P is in
>the vertical speed or altitude-hold mode, and I transmit on my Garmin GNS
>530, the autopilot is affected and my airplane pitches down. If I transmit
>on my other radio, an Apollo SL60, I have no such problem. I've tried
>switching the antennas between the two radios, and it's still the Garmin
>that causes the problem.
>
>Both COM antennas are in the rear of the airplane, so the coax runs back
>past the pitch servo. The coax is the kind that has an extra metal shield
>around it. Since switching antennas didn't change the offending radio, my
>guess is that the problem is something else... maybe a bad ground? All
>avionics are in the same stack, which is firmly bolted together and also
>has lots of ground wires run. The GNS is farther from the A/P than is the
>Apollo radio.
>
>I need some suggestions on how to go about troubleshooting this
>arrangement... where do I start, and what are all the things I should
>check? I am familiar with electronics.
>
>Jim Oberst
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
Great! Another electronic gizzmo that I have to upgrade.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schattauer
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
S TEC has a new aluminum pitch transducer that eliminates this problem.
RF
was apparently getting into the pitch transducer when transmitting.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> alternators/generators |
| Subject: | Turboprop and rocket engine |
alternators/generators
alternators/generators
All the turbine powered aircraft I've worked on have gear driven
starter-generators. The only exception is our new Horizon that has
separate starters and wild-frequency AC alternators. Here's
a typical starter-generator installation on a Pratt-Whitney turbofan:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/typical_SG_Installation.jpg
For over 30 years, there's been a tantalizing notion of one-piece
starter generators for piston aircraft . . . we studied the idea
several times at Electromech decades ago. For then and for the moment,
separate devices is still the low cost of ownership, lowest weight
combination for the piston engine aircraft.
Interestingly enough, turbines are moving AWAY from the one-piece
idea and toward separate starting and power generation devices. I've
heard that there are some miniature turboshaft engines that are easy
to start with electrics or air that are being used to crank the very
large turbo-fan engines. Wild-frequency AC is becoming the generation
technology of choice for power-hungry aircraft . . .
Bob . . .
>
>
>To All,
>
>The accessory gear case of the turbine engine is where the starter and other
>accessories are located. On the TFE731, the starter is a starter/generator
>and does double duty.
>
>The accessory gear case is usually driven off of the high speed spool. On
>most engines that I've worked on, it is located at the bottom of the engine,
>just behind the fan case or particle separator.
>
>Turbofan engines use electric and air turbine starters; each has its own
>drawbacks. I have spent many a day trying to figure out what the start
>system was doing on the engine I was working on....
>
>Pete Rouse
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
>Prather
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turboprop and rocket engine
>alternators/generators
>
>
>It strikes me that I have seen both gear and belt driven alternators
>on gas turbine/turboprops. I assume the same can be said of turbofans
>and turbojets, but at the moment, I can't visualize where the power
>takeoff would be located. It can't be too hard since they use electric
>motors to spool up.
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt-
>VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Can you point me in a direction to find out more about alternator and
> > generator applications on turboprops, jets, rocket propulsion, etc.
> >
> > A typical reciprocating engine has a belt driven or geared alternator
> > onboard. Specically I'm looking for info on how rocket engines produce
> > the required electrical needs and backups.
> >
> > Thank you
> > Steve
> > RV
> >
> >
>
>
>---
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bobby Hester" <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Contactor Torque |
This info is straight off http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=2101/index.html
Maximum torque requirements: 10-32 threaded studs 15 in/lb., 5/16-24 threaded studs
- 35 in/lbs. Do NOT over torque.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls,III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:21 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor Torque
>
>
>
> >
> >I've seen a number of messages regarding ruining the cole-Hersee
> >contactors by over-torque but the messages never state a correct
> >torque. Presuming one holds the bottom nut to prevent rotating the
> >terminal, what would be the torque to apply? The terminals are 5/16-24
> >thread but are not cadmium plated & who knows what metal is being
> >used. Looks like copper on the one I got from Vans. Cole-Hersee hasn't
> >replied to my emails so I'm wondering if someone on the list knows.
>
> "Over torque" of the threads isn't the biggest risk, it's twisting
> the studs in their plastic insulators. You can avoid this with
> the two-wrench approach to tightening. You need to counter-torque
> the nut next to the housing while tightening the top nut down on
> the terminals. The studs are hard copper. AC43-13 calls out 60-85
> inch-pounds for 24,000 psi steel bolts. 50-60 in-lb would be fine
> for the contactor studs . . . which is not a lot of force at the
> end of a 12" wrench . . . about 5 pounds. Your nut should have
> an internal tooth, phosphor-bronze or beryllium-copper lockwasher
> under it.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------
Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Got Lockwasher? |
>
>I need one switch locking washer, you know, the kind with tabs that
>prevent switch rotation in the mounting hole, to complete my panel
>installation. If anyone out there bought a dozen when they were in the
>same situation & could mail me one, drop me an email & I'll send you back
>a buck.
If you can't put your hands on one . . . B&C stocks them and
would probably drop one in an envelope to you for the price of
a phone call.
Bob . . .
Well, I tried it & they did. Great folks.
Dave Reel - RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> runs |
| Subject: | Re: Making neat cable |
runs
David, this can be the most challanging part of wiring. Good
documentation (wire numbering and logging to wire book) and
setting up wiring run paths and making sure all wires run one
of the designated paths. Run one wire at a time and keep your
run tight. Buy lots of elcheapo plastic ties and use everyone
of them by cutting the old one off and adding a new one as you
add each wire to the run. You'll have a much neater wiring
job in the end. You could include in your numbering log wire
book the path used for each wire if you wanted to assign a
name to each path. It will make future maintenace easier.
Where it is very hard to do however I found with all the wires
going ever which way from the radio stack. I had John Stark
wire my radio harnesses. It is close to chaos behind the
radios even with his well built harness to start with.
Indiana Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Horsten" <airplanes(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Voltage regulator |
Hi,
I'm new to this list. I'm busy refitting a Zenair CH-300 with a Lycoming
engine, and I want to improve upon the electrical system a little. I have an
old alternator (Chrysler I think) and one of those old vibrating Voltage
Regulators. I see that B&C has some really nice options, but a little out of
my budget. I wonder if anyone can suggest an automotive equivalent that
could do over voltage protection, and maybe under voltage warning light?
Solid state of course!
Thanks for any help
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Turbo Tom" <turbotom(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Making neat cable runs |
Buy lots of elcheapo plastic ties and use everyone
> of them by cutting the old one off and adding a new one as you
> add each wire to the run. You'll have a much neater wiring
> job in the end.
This does work well, but twist-ties like those used with plastic trash bags
or bread wrappers are even simpler and handier. No tools required to remove
and reinstall. You can buy a box of 1000 on-line for about $7US. I bought
the 6-inch long ones and cut them in half for the smaller bundles.
TT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery grounding |
>Bob,
>I am restoring a Marchetti SF-260 and have looked at the wiring harness --
>thirty some years old. Question is on grounds -- battery is in baggage
>area far away from the starter etc. Is it a good idea to run a ground
>cable from the bat to the firewall for a good ground or just ground the
>bat in the baggage area? I have read your book from front to back, Your
>book has stimulated this e-mail
>Tom.
Obviously, there are tens of thousands of airplanes with
rear mounted batteries wherein the airframe is used
as ground return for the battery. If it were my
airplane, I would strive to limit use of the airframe
as a component of the electrical system. Pitot heaters,
landing lights, taxi lights, nav lights and strobe supplies
can be grounded locally with zero risk of generating or
aggravating ground induced noise coupling between systems.
Further, if the airplane is aged, I think it's a good idea
to bring battery (-) to the firewall ground stud instead
of local grounding to structure in the tail.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
Paul, a local avionics guy told me that STEC had trouble with the pressure
transducer and had a new metal model, but I got the idea that it had to do
with reliability. I guess not. Perhaps the first thing I try is wrapping
the transducer and its wiring with foil.
I understand a new transducer is near $1000.
Jim Oberst
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711(at)msn.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
>
>
> S TEC has a new aluminum pitch transducer that eliminates this problem.
RF
> was apparently getting into the pitch transducer when transmitting.
>
> Paul
>
>
> >From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >To:
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
> >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:23:35 -0500
> >
> ><joberst@cox-internet.com>
> >
> >I have an S-TEC system 55 A/P in my Glasair Super II. When the A/P is in
> >the vertical speed or altitude-hold mode, and I transmit on my Garmin GNS
> >530, the autopilot is affected and my airplane pitches down. If I
transmit
> >on my other radio, an Apollo SL60, I have no such problem. I've tried
> >switching the antennas between the two radios, and it's still the Garmin
> >that causes the problem.
> >
> >Both COM antennas are in the rear of the airplane, so the coax runs back
> >past the pitch servo. The coax is the kind that has an extra metal
shield
> >around it. Since switching antennas didn't change the offending radio,
my
> >guess is that the problem is something else... maybe a bad ground? All
> >avionics are in the same stack, which is firmly bolted together and also
> >has lots of ground wires run. The GNS is farther from the A/P than is
the
> >Apollo radio.
> >
> >I need some suggestions on how to go about troubleshooting this
> >arrangement... where do I start, and what are all the things I should
> >check? I am familiar with electronics.
> >
> >Jim Oberst
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
It may be under warranty, check with your avionics supplier. It was for me
and it fixed the problem. Price was about $500. If your warranty has
expiredI would think some grounded foil around the transducer wuld help.
Paul
>From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:16:53 -0500
>
><joberst@cox-internet.com>
>
>Paul, a local avionics guy told me that STEC had trouble with the pressure
>transducer and had a new metal model, but I got the idea that it had to do
>with reliability. I guess not. Perhaps the first thing I try is wrapping
>the transducer and its wiring with foil.
>
>I understand a new transducer is near $1000.
>
>Jim Oberst
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711(at)msn.com>
>To:
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > S TEC has a new aluminum pitch transducer that eliminates this problem.
>RF
> > was apparently getting into the pitch transducer when transmitting.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > >From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
> > >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > >To:
> > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
> > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:23:35 -0500
> > >
> > ><joberst@cox-internet.com>
> > >
> > >I have an S-TEC system 55 A/P in my Glasair Super II. When the A/P is
>in
> > >the vertical speed or altitude-hold mode, and I transmit on my Garmin
>GNS
> > >530, the autopilot is affected and my airplane pitches down. If I
>transmit
> > >on my other radio, an Apollo SL60, I have no such problem. I've tried
> > >switching the antennas between the two radios, and it's still the
>Garmin
> > >that causes the problem.
> > >
> > >Both COM antennas are in the rear of the airplane, so the coax runs
>back
> > >past the pitch servo. The coax is the kind that has an extra metal
>shield
> > >around it. Since switching antennas didn't change the offending radio,
>my
> > >guess is that the problem is something else... maybe a bad ground? All
> > >avionics are in the same stack, which is firmly bolted together and
>also
> > >has lots of ground wires run. The GNS is farther from the A/P than is
>the
> > >Apollo radio.
> > >
> > >I need some suggestions on how to go about troubleshooting this
> > >arrangement... where do I start, and what are all the things I should
> > >check? I am familiar with electronics.
> > >
> > >Jim Oberst
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Transmitter/Autopilot interference |
STEC's warrantee on kit plane installs starts at the date of the first
flight and continues for 1 year. I just fought this battle with them
over a defective annunciator display.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schattauer
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
It may be under warranty, check with your avionics supplier. It was for
me
and it fixed the problem. Price was about $500. If your warranty has
expiredI would think some grounded foil around the transducer wuld help.
Paul
>From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:16:53 -0500
>
><joberst@cox-internet.com>
>
>Paul, a local avionics guy told me that STEC had trouble with the
pressure
>transducer and had a new metal model, but I got the idea that it had to
do
>with reliability. I guess not. Perhaps the first thing I try is
wrapping
>the transducer and its wiring with foil.
>
>I understand a new transducer is near $1000.
>
>Jim Oberst
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711(at)msn.com>
>To:
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > S TEC has a new aluminum pitch transducer that eliminates this
problem.
>RF
> > was apparently getting into the pitch transducer when transmitting.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > >From: "J. Oberst" <joberst@cox-internet.com>
> > >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > >To:
> > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transmitter/Autopilot interference
> > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:23:35 -0500
> > >
> > ><joberst@cox-internet.com>
> > >
> > >I have an S-TEC system 55 A/P in my Glasair Super II. When the A/P
is
>in
> > >the vertical speed or altitude-hold mode, and I transmit on my
Garmin
>GNS
> > >530, the autopilot is affected and my airplane pitches down. If I
>transmit
> > >on my other radio, an Apollo SL60, I have no such problem. I've
tried
> > >switching the antennas between the two radios, and it's still the
>Garmin
> > >that causes the problem.
> > >
> > >Both COM antennas are in the rear of the airplane, so the coax runs
>back
> > >past the pitch servo. The coax is the kind that has an extra metal
>shield
> > >around it. Since switching antennas didn't change the offending
radio,
>my
> > >guess is that the problem is something else... maybe a bad ground?
All
> > >avionics are in the same stack, which is firmly bolted together and
>also
> > >has lots of ground wires run. The GNS is farther from the A/P than
is
>the
> > >Apollo radio.
> > >
> > >I need some suggestions on how to go about troubleshooting this
> > >arrangement... where do I start, and what are all the things I
should
> > >check? I am familiar with electronics.
> > >
> > >Jim Oberst
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Leonard" <dleonar1(at)maine.rr.com> |
I have an LCD display question.
I was given a 1995 Garmin Meridian XL GPS, that hadn't run in a few years.
I cleaned it up and put new batteries in. It would boot, but the LCD
display was missing a bunch of its lines, so the display is unreadable.
I sez Hmmmmm, and took it apart and tried cleaning the pin connector
connecting the two boards halfs with De-oxit. No dice, no better.
I tried taking the LCD display off, and pulling the frame off and the glass
which is the display right off. There are a whole bunch of contacts on the
board, like several hundred on the top, and maybe half as many on the
bottom. Then there are flexible rubber strips, white with a black center
(carbon conductor sandwiched in neoprene maybe?) section that sit on the
board contacts, and also the other side of them sit on the glass of the LCD
screen. They run the horizontal length of the glass and contacts, top and
bottom, they are about 3" x 3/16 x 1/4" tall, with the black conductor
section contacting the glass and the board. I am assuming these are the
conductors to carry the juice to the screen to display the information . I
cleaned the edges of them but no dice. One of the strips was half unglued
from the glass..me being me I pulled it all the way off...Put the whole
mess back together....
So anyway, I still have the middle of the display displaying, and very
faint information on the outer thirds of the screen, the screen seems to be
divided vertically, with the middle third almost okay, the edges barely
visible.
Is there a conductive glue or paste used for the strip connections?
Do the glass units themselves fail over time..I always assume nothing is
wrong and it is usually a connection with most stuff..but I really don't know.
Anyone know how these things work?
I realize that $99 gets me a new unit, I have a few spares around anyway,
but that isn't the point...I should be able to fix it and screw It to some
vehicle or other!
I do like technology the fits well in the trashcan and is nicely
replaceable, so maybe this is the thing..
Thanks, Dave Leonard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Lehman" <lehmans(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Voltage regulator |
Chris,
I suggest you consider the generic Ford type regulator: VR-166. It's quite
universally available and easily mounted on the firewall. It's amazingly
inexpensive in the US but costs about $50 cdn in Canada. The VR-166X is
Carquest's 'heavy duty' version with over voltage indication (flashing
charge light for over voltage; steady charge light for under voltage). You
could also put a zener diode on the load side of a 5 Amp circuit breaker to
remove power from the regulator if an over voltage event occurs.
Mike
I'm new to this list. I'm busy refitting a Zenair CH-300 with a Lycoming
engine, and I want to improve upon the electrical system a little. I have an
old alternator (Chrysler I think) and one of those old vibrating Voltage
Regulators. I see that B&C has some really nice options, but a little out of
my budget. I wonder if anyone can suggest an automotive equivalent that
could do over voltage protection, and maybe under voltage warning light?
Solid state of course!
Thanks for any help
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
David,
You are on the right track the rubber things are conductors, when I worked
for a cellphone company we had a heck of a time with them. The trade/common
name of the connectors slip my mind at the moment. However what you need to
do is take the LCD back apart pull the rubber contact strips off and then
clean the rubber and the LCD and the PCB where the rubber contacts with some
rubbing alcohol.
What we found with the cell phones is that moisture gets into the connectors
which causes higher resistance. The company finally changed the LCD contacts
to gold coated finger contacts to eliminate this problem, of course this
caused it's own set of problems...
Regards,
Trampas Stern
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David A.
Leonard
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GPS LCD?
I have an LCD display question.
I was given a 1995 Garmin Meridian XL GPS, that hadn't run in a few years.
I cleaned it up and put new batteries in. It would boot, but the LCD
display was missing a bunch of its lines, so the display is unreadable.
I sez Hmmmmm, and took it apart and tried cleaning the pin connector
connecting the two boards halfs with De-oxit. No dice, no better.
I tried taking the LCD display off, and pulling the frame off and the glass
which is the display right off. There are a whole bunch of contacts on the
board, like several hundred on the top, and maybe half as many on the
bottom. Then there are flexible rubber strips, white with a black center
(carbon conductor sandwiched in neoprene maybe?) section that sit on the
board contacts, and also the other side of them sit on the glass of the LCD
screen. They run the horizontal length of the glass and contacts, top and
bottom, they are about 3" x 3/16 x 1/4" tall, with the black conductor
section contacting the glass and the board. I am assuming these are the
conductors to carry the juice to the screen to display the information . I
cleaned the edges of them but no dice. One of the strips was half unglued
from the glass..me being me I pulled it all the way off...Put the whole
mess back together....
So anyway, I still have the middle of the display displaying, and very
faint information on the outer thirds of the screen, the screen seems to be
divided vertically, with the middle third almost okay, the edges barely
visible.
Is there a conductive glue or paste used for the strip connections?
Do the glass units themselves fail over time..I always assume nothing is
wrong and it is usually a connection with most stuff..but I really don't
know.
Anyone know how these things work?
I realize that $99 gets me a new unit, I have a few spares around anyway,
but that isn't the point...I should be able to fix it and screw It to some
vehicle or other!
I do like technology the fits well in the trashcan and is nicely
replaceable, so maybe this is the thing..
Thanks, Dave Leonard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator |
-------------------------------------------------------
>I'm new to this list. I'm busy refitting a Zenair CH-300 with a Lycoming
>engine, and I want to improve upon the electrical system a little. I have an
>old alternator (Chrysler I think) and one of those old vibrating Voltage
>Regulators. I see that B&C has some really nice options, but a little out of
>my budget. I wonder if anyone can suggest an automotive equivalent that
>could do over voltage protection, and maybe under voltage warning light?
>Solid state of course!
>
>Thanks for any help
>Chris
>
>Chris,
>
>I suggest you consider the generic Ford type regulator: VR-166. It's quite
>universally available and easily mounted on the firewall. It's amazingly
>inexpensive in the US but costs about $50 cdn in Canada.
Ebay has them for $10 at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7921051773&category=33577&sspagename=WDVW
This company offers them for $5 at:
http://www.sherco-auto.com/nov03.pdf
They're offered by virtually EVERY autoparts store for 10-25 dollars.
Exemplar wiring is illustrated in Figure Z-23 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
> The VR-166X is
>Carquest's 'heavy duty' version with over voltage indication (flashing
>charge light for over voltage; steady charge light for under voltage).
Carquest's website even features this style regulator as
an exemplar voltage regulator product at:
http://www.carquest.com/product/ec/voltage_regulators.html
I tried to look up the VR166x but their part number
lookup engine isn't working on the website.
> You
>could also put a zener diode on the load side of a 5 Amp circuit breaker to
>remove power from the regulator if an over voltage event occurs.
This is a scheme certified on some early Grumman products but
not recommended for use with breakers. It's sorta okay with fuses
(as originally certified) because of the much faster response to
overload by fuses. Also, be sure to use only GLASS 1N4745A zeners -
the plastic ones often blow open. Be aware too that these are a one-time
ov protection device . . . they're EXPECTED to short and pop the fuse.
The more robust approach uses crowbar ov protection
described in chapter 6 of the AeroElectric Connection and in
Figure Z-23 of AeroElectric Connection appendix Z cited above
You can go the DIY project route as described in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/crowbar.pdf
or offered pre-assembled by B&C and offered as their OVM-14
crowbar overvoltage module at:
http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218
If you want all the functionality offered by the B&C LR3
regulator, you'll also want ACTIVE notification of low voltage
as a DIY project at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
or offered pre-assembled at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Contacts for MS347x series connectors |
>
>Comments/Questions: What pins should be used in a MS3471W8-33S (Aero 9903)
>connector? Thanks,
>Glenn Studevant
Depends on wire gage for the particular pin location. See
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/PV_TBF.pdf
for description of the connector including various inserts
and the contact that fit them.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Horsten" <airplanes(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Voltage regulator |
Bob,
Thanks for the most comprehensive answers to my questions. I have the book,
but I've been focusing on the Z-11 and Z-13 schematics and failed to notice
the Z-23. This sure makes life much easier! Seems I need to spend some time
with the Aeroelectric book.
Thanks very much again,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage regulator
-->
-------------------------------------------------------
>I'm new to this list. I'm busy refitting a Zenair CH-300 with a
>Lycoming engine, and I want to improve upon the electrical system a
>little. I have an old alternator (Chrysler I think) and one of those
>old vibrating Voltage Regulators. I see that B&C has some really nice
>options, but a little out of my budget. I wonder if anyone can suggest
>an automotive equivalent that could do over voltage protection, and maybe
under voltage warning light?
>Solid state of course!
>
>Thanks for any help
>Chris
>-->
>
>Chris,
>
>I suggest you consider the generic Ford type regulator: VR-166. It's
>quite universally available and easily mounted on the firewall. It's
>amazingly inexpensive in the US but costs about $50 cdn in Canada.
Ebay has them for $10 at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=792105177
3&category=33577&sspagename=WDVW
This company offers them for $5 at:
http://www.sherco-auto.com/nov03.pdf
They're offered by virtually EVERY autoparts store for 10-25 dollars.
Exemplar wiring is illustrated in Figure Z-23 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Williams" <rwayne(at)gamewood.net> |
| Subject: | Radio noise capacitor |
I have some radio noise and think it is coming from my alternator (B&C
40amp)or electronic ignition (Laser). Someone suggested a noise capacitor on
the alternator. Any ideas where to get something like that and whether it is
likely to help? Thanks!
Wayne
RV8A: Flying
RV9A; building
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>David,
>
>You are on the right track the rubber things are conductors, when I worked
>for a cellphone company we had a heck of a time with them. The trade/common
>name of the connectors slip my mind at the moment.
Do a google search on [ "zebra strips" connector lcd ] and you'll
get a good data dump on this product. It's a very common technology
for taking signals off the etched circuit board and onto the tiny
contact pads of an LCD assembly . . .
> However what you need to
>do is take the LCD back apart pull the rubber contact strips off and then
>clean the rubber and the LCD and the PCB where the rubber contacts with some
>rubbing alcohol.
Drugstore rubbing alcohol contains water and sometimes other
ingredients to enhance its performance on the body . . . Here's
a clip from one of the 'net-hits above on the topic.
---------------------- beginning of excerpt -----------------------------
A number of years ago I bought a Fluke 87 multimeter for
a special purpose. With the job completed it sat around
for a number of years. Now, I would like to use it again,
but the display has problems. Some of the number segments
don't function, some are sort of random.
Is there anything I can do to cure this?
Date: 16 Feb 2004 21:50:34
From: BFoelsch
Subject: Re: Fluke 87 Display Flakey
Yup - Probably - Just this minute was working on a couple. Mine were
purchased new in 1989, worked until 2 or 3 years ago.
It is not a difficult repair if you are generally acquainted with electronic
equipment.
The LCD display is connected to the circuitry by some elastomeric (rubbery)
ribbons with conductive strips in them. Apparently the connections
deteriorate after some time.
I pulled my 87s apart, removed the PCB assembly, removed the phillips headed
screw from the back of the PCB assembly and carefully removed the back and
front shields. The display comes off with the front shield. Go easy, there
is a litle connector on the left for the backlight.
Once apart, the contacts on the PCB will be apparent, clean them up as
delicately as possible. I just rubbed them very lightly with a cloth with a
little isopropyl alcohol. If you want, you can put it back together and try
it at this point. If there is no change, proceed on!
Looking at the display, you will see that there is a front bezel that snaps
off. Once the bezel is removed, the LCD is visible and may be lifted out of
the frame. In all likelihood the two elastomeric strips will be stuck to it,
they look like pieces of eraser with a gray layer in the middle. Pull them
off the display to expose the contacts, which are just conductive films,
barely visible, on the edges of the LCD. CAREFULLY clean the contacts on the
edges edges of the LCD (I again used Isopropyl Alcohol) being careful not to
let the solvent travel off of the contacts into the display proper. Dry
thoroughly with a Q-Tip or lint-free rag. Then, clean the edges of the
elastomeric strips, again carefully. Dry, and re-assemble, being sure to
properly connect the backlight. The whole assembly snaps into place on the
PCB, if it doesn't snap fully into place you will see only a partial
display, just like the problem you are trying to cure.
That should do it. I just this evening worked on a few of them, all
successfully. I was going to send them back to Fluke, but, being an obsolete
product the quoted price was very high. They offered me a trade in against a
new 189, but I figured I would try to fix the 87s because I had absolutely
nothing to lose. So far, so good.
---------------- end of excerpt ----------------------------------
A pure alcohol that evaporates and leaves no residue is preferable.
I have a benchtop digital multimeter that needs the treatment about
every 2-3 years. I use a commercial, total evaporation cleaner . . .
it's a kind of Freon I think. In any case, like isopropyl alcohol it's
not antagonistic to plastics.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio noise capacitor |
>I have some radio noise and think it is coming from my alternator (B&C
>40amp)or electronic ignition (Laser). Someone suggested a noise capacitor
on
>the alternator. Any ideas where to get something like that and whether it
is
>likely to help? Thanks! Wayne
Wayne,
I would like to ask if the noise suddenly appeared or if this has been
installation?
Some noise filtering may be good, but make sure it doesn't cover up
something that needs fixing---such as worn out plug wires, some high voltage
leaking to ground, or another capacitor that has failed. This needs to be
investigated before throwing parts at it.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Breaker spacing & terminals |
I managed to cut breaker holes that make my breakers quite close to each other
vertically. Two questions:
1. Is there an accepted minimum distance between the bus bar line of one breaker
and the terminal line of the breaker below it? Mine's less than an eighth of
an inch in some places.
2. The Klixon breakers are designed to accept ring terminals, although it looks
like the tabs would accept fast ons. Fast ons would give me a bit more space
(since they eliminate the screw heads. Could fast ons be used, or would that
be a no no?
Thanks,
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Hangar vs Hanger |
Please guys. I'm going insane.
A hangar is a place you build and park an aircraft.
A hanger is something you store clothes on.
Sorry if I sound anal. Insanity does that to one.
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
www.rv-8a.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Hangar vs Hanger |
WHAT? No railing about to, too, two or their, there, they're or you, your,
you're or will, well or...(insert pet peeve here)... Your obviously not
totally over the edge. In you're lucid moments try to remember the "do not
archive" since that drives others insane two8-)
Greg
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hangar vs Hanger
>
>
> Please guys. I'm going insane.
>
> A hangar is a place you build and park an aircraft.
>
> A hanger is something you store clothes on.
>
> Sorry if I sound anal. Insanity does that to one.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
> Tampa
> www.rv-8a.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
Bob, others:
Greg Richter at Blue Mountain Avionics has just posted a short (24 page?)
booklet he has written for his customers. I haven't read it yet, but I like
Greg's attitude and I expect it to be very worthwhile. You might like to
have a look.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download.php
Terry
RV-8A, Blue Mountain EFIS/one wiring still
Seattle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <beecho(at)beecho.org> |
| Subject: | Intercom harness |
Hi Bob
Several months ago you sent be a wiring diagram for 2 micorair 760's and
an Xcom intercom. I was unable to get the combination to work so
finally Xcom has agreed to refund my $$. I still need to connect the
two coms to an intercom and it appears to me that the same circuitry
will work with a PS engineering PM50l. Is that correct?
I would prefer to use their PM1000 intercom though, and I haven't been
able to figure out how to connect it to the two coms.
Do you have any experience with them? The pinouts are on the PS
engineering web page.
Thank you,
Tom Friedland
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
I recently purchased a Terra Tx 760D (I know - now defunct - but that is what my
radio rack is designed for) to replace one which had never been reliable in
two way communications. The seller warned me about the digit display going blank
- no complaints there. Naturally, I would like to get it fixed because at
least with it two way communications are working.
The interesting thing is that the display does not light up when turned on unless
the engine is running. Turn the engine off and the display goes out. Radio
stays on and everything appears to be working except for the display digits.
I can fly with it this way, but sometimes on the ground you would like to be
able to switch to a different frequency {:>)
The only difference I can figure out is that my bus voltage goes from approx 12.8
to 14.6 volts when the engine is running and for some reason that appears to
be sufficient to trigger the display.
Does anyone have any ideal what might cause this - bad voltage regulator in the
set? I have cleaned the contacts and even sprayed WD40 for moisture displacement
- nothing has yet had any effect.
Thanks
Ed
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Breaker spacing & terminals |
Rechecked the breaker terminals and observe that fastons will NOT fit (the
terminals are too wide). My question about distance between circuits still
goes: What should be the minimum distance between a hot bus and an
individual hot terminal?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Breaker spacing & terminals |
>
>I managed to cut breaker holes that make my breakers quite close to each
>other vertically. Two questions:
>
>1. Is there an accepted minimum distance between the bus bar line of one
>breaker and the terminal line of the breaker below it? Mine's less than
>an eighth of an inch in some places.
This would make some bureaucrats nervous . . . especially those
who make a career of crafting "accepted practices". The real
question is, do you perceive any probability that two conductors
will come together that shouldn't. If the mechanical system is
rigid enough, then .001" guaranteed clearance is enough (this gap
will stand off about 1000 volts). If you cannot guarantee separation
either by design or analysis, then a suitable barrier is in order
which can take the form of more airgap (spacing) or a strip of sheet
insulating material like fiberglas or phenolic.
>2. The Klixon breakers are designed to accept ring terminals, although it
>looks like the tabs would accept fast ons. Fast ons would give me a bit
>more space (since they eliminate the screw heads. Could fast ons be used,
>or would that be a no no?
Please don't do this. Connector technologies like fast-ons have
performance characteristics that can be assured only when you
use them per manufacturer's recommendations. There is a lot
of risk charging off in some unadvertised direction without
checking it out carefully yourself or getting the advice of
the manufacturer. If you want to use fast-ons with breakers,
then there are breakers that are fitted with fast-on tabs.
Otherwise, my best recommendation is that you use the threaded
fastener technologies for which the breakers were designed.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio noise capacitor |
>
>
>
>
> >I have some radio noise and think it is coming from my alternator (B&C
> >40amp)or electronic ignition (Laser). Someone suggested a noise capacitor
>on
> >the alternator. Any ideas where to get something like that and whether it
>is
> >likely to help? Thanks! Wayne
>
>Wayne,
>
>I would like to ask if the noise suddenly appeared or if this has been
>installation?
>
>Some noise filtering may be good, but make sure it doesn't cover up
>something that needs fixing---such as worn out plug wires, some high voltage
>leaking to ground, or another capacitor that has failed. This needs to be
>investigated before throwing parts at it.
EXACTLY! Suggest you acquire a copy of the 'Connection and
check out the chapter on noise. It appears that you have yet
to identify the antagonist for sure. You also need to know
who the victim is . . . just because you hear something in the
headphones doesn't tell you if it's coming in through one radio,
all radios, the intercom, or possibly a ground-loop induced noise
for which there is NO filter large enough to fix.
As the star in Short Circuit would say, "you need input".
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom harness |
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Several months ago you sent be a wiring diagram for 2 micorair 760's and
>an Xcom intercom. I was unable to get the combination to work so
>finally Xcom has agreed to refund my $$. I still need to connect the
>two coms to an intercom and it appears to me that the same circuitry
>will work with a PS engineering PM50l. Is that correct?
>
>I would prefer to use their PM1000 intercom though, and I haven't been
>able to figure out how to connect it to the two coms.
>
>Do you have any experience with them? The pinouts are on the PS
>engineering web page.
Hmmmm . . . I wish you had raised the problems with Xcom's
intercom on the list before returning it. There is no special
characteristic of an intercom that makes it uniquely qualified
(or un qualified) to work with one, two or ten radios.
Intercoms do not normally come equipped with audio isolation
amplifiers . . . mixing amplifiers that combine audio from
multiple sources such that the intercom is blissfully
unaware of the fact that there is more than one radio driving
the headset audio input. The diagrams I offered show a variety
of approaches to this task. Which page were you using of that
data package?
Did you get it wired up and found that it didn't work? What
were the symptoms? My guess is that until you craft a
successfully executable design, it's not going to matter
who's intercom you choose to try.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Breaker spacing & terminals |
>1. Is there an accepted minimum distance between the bus bar line of one
breaker
and the terminal line of the breaker below it?
1/8 inch would be okay--assuming no flake of conductive material, moisture,
etc. ever got into the gap. It would make me nervous though if something
gets bent.
Suggestion: The bus bar does not have to be straight. Can it be "E" shaped
for example...can it be twisted? Can you insulate the busbar and/or the
terminal?
>2. Could Fastons be used?..........
Can you wrap the wire and solder it and insulate it?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <beecho(at)beecho.org> |
| Subject: | Intercom harness |
Thanks for the prompt reply Bob.
When I received the harness diagram (labled XCOM with two comm.) Xcom
had offered to make me a harness and I had ordered it. When it arrived,
it did not work. It took me quite a period of time and many requests to
finally receive a wiring diagram from them. Their diagram was
essentially the same as the one I got from you. I found several
errors including shorts, opens and incorrect connections. I attempted
to correct them and checking with an ohm meter showed it to be correct.
I sent the harness and intercom back to them and was derided for sloppy
work. They made a new one but I decided that 1 1/2 years was too much
delay and so I requested a refund as the intercom and harness have been
sent back.
Microair has offered to make a harness for the 2 coms and a PM1000. I
am still interested in making my own, however.
Thanks
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intercom harness
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Several months ago you sent be a wiring diagram for 2 micorair 760's
and
>an Xcom intercom. I was unable to get the combination to work so
>finally Xcom has agreed to refund my $$. I still need to connect the
>two coms to an intercom and it appears to me that the same circuitry
>will work with a PS engineering PM50l. Is that correct?
>
>I would prefer to use their PM1000 intercom though, and I haven't been
>able to figure out how to connect it to the two coms.
>
>Do you have any experience with them? The pinouts are on the PS
>engineering web page.
Hmmmm . . . I wish you had raised the problems with Xcom's
intercom on the list before returning it. There is no special
characteristic of an intercom that makes it uniquely qualified
(or un qualified) to work with one, two or ten radios.
Intercoms do not normally come equipped with audio isolation
amplifiers . . . mixing amplifiers that combine audio from
multiple sources such that the intercom is blissfully
unaware of the fact that there is more than one radio driving
the headset audio input. The diagrams I offered show a variety
of approaches to this task. Which page were you using of that
data package?
Did you get it wired up and found that it didn't work? What
were the symptoms? My guess is that until you craft a
successfully executable design, it's not going to matter
who's intercom you choose to try.
Bob . . .
---
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom harness |
Tom,
I have an XCOM and it works a treat, luck of the draw I guess. I made my
own harness from their wring diagram because it needed to integrate into my
panel.
To be honest getting it to work took more effort than any of the other
avionics in my panel, I don't really know why, I think I was just making
more mistakes that day!
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: <beecho(at)beecho.org>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intercom harness
>
> Thanks for the prompt reply Bob.
> When I received the harness diagram (labled XCOM with two comm.) Xcom
> had offered to make me a harness and I had ordered it. When it arrived,
> it did not work. It took me quite a period of time and many requests to
> finally receive a wiring diagram from them. Their diagram was
> essentially the same as the one I got from you. I found several
> errors including shorts, opens and incorrect connections. I attempted
> to correct them and checking with an ohm meter showed it to be correct.
> I sent the harness and intercom back to them and was derided for sloppy
> work. They made a new one but I decided that 1 1/2 years was too much
> delay and so I requested a refund as the intercom and harness have been
> sent back.
> Microair has offered to make a harness for the 2 coms and a PM1000. I
> am still interested in making my own, however.
> Thanks
> Tom
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intercom harness
>
>
>
>
> >
> >Hi Bob
> >
> >Several months ago you sent be a wiring diagram for 2 micorair 760's
> and
> >an Xcom intercom. I was unable to get the combination to work so
> >finally Xcom has agreed to refund my $$. I still need to connect the
> >two coms to an intercom and it appears to me that the same circuitry
> >will work with a PS engineering PM50l. Is that correct?
> >
> >I would prefer to use their PM1000 intercom though, and I haven't been
> >able to figure out how to connect it to the two coms.
> >
> >Do you have any experience with them? The pinouts are on the PS
> >engineering web page.
>
> Hmmmm . . . I wish you had raised the problems with Xcom's
> intercom on the list before returning it. There is no special
> characteristic of an intercom that makes it uniquely qualified
> (or un qualified) to work with one, two or ten radios.
>
> Intercoms do not normally come equipped with audio isolation
> amplifiers . . . mixing amplifiers that combine audio from
> multiple sources such that the intercom is blissfully
> unaware of the fact that there is more than one radio driving
> the headset audio input. The diagrams I offered show a variety
> of approaches to this task. Which page were you using of that
> data package?
>
> Did you get it wired up and found that it didn't work? What
> were the symptoms? My guess is that until you craft a
> successfully executable design, it's not going to matter
> who's intercom you choose to try.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Williams" <rwayne(at)gamewood.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Re: Radio noise capacitor |
Eric:
Excellent point. It has been present since installation.
Wayne
Wayne,
I would like to ask if the noise suddenly appeared or if this has been
installation?
Some noise filtering may be good, but make sure it doesn't cover up
something that needs fixing---such as worn out plug wires, some high voltage
leaking to ground, or another capacitor that has failed. This needs to be
investigated before throwing parts at it.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
9/14/2004
Hello Bob Nuckolls, Just sort of in passing twice recently you reminded me of an
issue of some interest to me. The issue is how and where can we learn what is
already so obvious (to others) that they assume it is common knowledge to all.
Purveyors of some materials and tools in our community ship these items out
without the slightest attempt to inform the buyer how to use them.
The first instance was when you posted this web site page in response to a voltage regulator question <http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218>.
When scrolling through that page I came to the Dynon EFIS D-10 Kit. The crimper
(for machined D sub pins) and the red and white plastic handled pin insert /
extract tool in that kit reminded me that I had recently purchased similar items
and then fumbled for a period of trial and error while figuring out how they
were supposed to work.
The second instance was when you posted this web site in response to a question on proper connector pins for MS3471W8-33S (Aero 9903) connectors. <<http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/PV_TBF.pdf>>
When I went to that site some of my questions were answered, but others were raised.
Can you please provide a brief simplistic nuts and bolts tutorial, or steer us
to one, on the subject of stripping, crimping, inserting and extracting the commonly
available machined pins for the commonly available D sub connectors?
Some questions still remaining that come to mind:
1) What about this depth of pin insertion into the crimping tool issue?
2) How does one assure himself that the pins and tool that he has on hand are compatible
with regard to pin insertion depth?
3) Is there, should there be, any user tool adjustment in regard to depth of pin
insertion?
4) Proper wire stripping length is determined by?
5) What about wire gage, pin, and tool compatibility? A friend has a tool that
wont properly crimp 24 AWG wire in the pins that he has. My tool properly crimps
26 AWG wire in the pins that I have.
6) What about the crimpers that make eight indentations into the pins rather than
just four? Superior? Essential? Where available?
7) What is the story on the color bands on the pins? Pure decoration or are they
trying to convey some important information to me?
8) Is there just one size of pins for all sizes of wire for these commonly used
D sub connectors?
9) What is the largest and smallest size of wire that one should expect to be able
to use in these pins and connectors?
10) About that red and white insert / tool Are the two ends different? If so how
are they different and how are they to be used?
11) If I buy, say 9 pin D sub connectors, from one seller to our community and
then later buy some from another seller should I expect the connectors to be compatible
with each other?
There are probably other use issues that you are aware of that could benefit many
of us. I apologize for asking such elementary questions sort of like asking
for directions on how to use an axe or a hammer, but even my grandson, who is
undoubtedly one of the brightest kids in the state, needs guidance on using
those two tools from time to time.
Many thanks for your continued help.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
Bob,
I would like your opinion of this material as well. Thanks. Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Terry
Watson
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People
Bob, others:
Greg Richter at Blue Mountain Avionics has just posted a short (24 page?)
booklet he has written for his customers. I haven't read it yet, but I like
Greg's attitude and I expect it to be very worthwhile. You might like to
have a look.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download.php
Terry
RV-8A, Blue Mountain EFIS/one wiring still
Seattle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonEavesRV6" <DonEavesRV6(at)midsouth.rr.com> |
| Subject: | King KN53 Coax wiring - J531, J533 Question |
King KN53 Coax wiring - J531, J533 Question:
I'm installing a King KN53 Nav in my flying RV6 and I need to know which coax connectors
(J531 and J533) is Glide Slop and which Localizer?
Thanks in advance -
Don Eaves RV6 Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Denny Mortensen" <dennymortensen(at)cableone.net> |
I get a product from the drug store that is the same alcohol but is 99%.
I think it is the type they use for injections. Anyway it has a
completely different feel to it, almost dry, and evaporates very quickly
and is also cheep to buy. I use it for cleaning tape heads and ext and
it works great.
Denny
-----Original Message-----
Drugstore rubbing alcohol contains water and sometimes other
ingredients to enhance its performance on the body . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GPS LCD? |
Danny's right....
]
I've mentioned this before, but it is worth repeating....
If you get the stuff labeled "91% Isopropyl Alcohol" or higher, you are
pretty safe as you are usually getting just alcohol and a little water.
So-called 'rubbing alcohol' MAY contain other ingredients ... often
oils, and sometimes salts as well (I worked at a pharmaceutical, company
in another life )
Harley Dixon
Denny Mortensen wrote:
>
>I get a product from the drug store that is the same alcohol but is 99%.
>I think it is the type they use for injections. Anyway it has a
>completely different feel to it, almost dry, and evaporates very quickly
>and is also cheep to buy. I use it for cleaning tape heads and ext and
>it works great.
>Denny
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
> Drugstore rubbing alcohol contains water and sometimes other
> ingredients to enhance its performance on the body . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
on juliet
Well I'm not Bob but in the interests of promoting conversation:
Among other things it seems to claim that teflon wire is as good or
better than tefzel, that breakers and fuses will eventually pop if
loaded above 80%, that there are 50 lb of wire in small airplanes and a
28volt system will save 10 lb of wire, he doesn't like two alternators,
and 10 awg wire is fine for up to 100 amps of alternator output, and he
markets a fancy electronic distribution center... He does give reasons
for much of what he says - but I do like to stir the pot and he
definately diverges from the common list wisdon here!
Ken
DonVS wrote:
>
>Bob,
>I would like your opinion of this material as well. Thanks. Don
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste(at)danvilletelco.net> |
| Subject: | Sam James Cowl and Plenum |
I'm seriously considering a Sam James Cowl and Plenum . . . I will probably
be installing some form of a carbureted 0-360 with either a Hartzell or
Whirlwind c/s prop?!
For those of you that have done it:
Do you believe you gained the 10mph claimed?
What if any are the watch-outs for engine and propeller.
Would you do it again?
Are there any other "speed mods" that provide a good bang for the buck?
If I go down this path, I have an extra cowl (Van's, O-360 carb, c/s prop)
anybody interested??
Thanks,
Bob Christensen
RV-8 Builder in SE Iowa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Maher <lilabner_45(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Touch screen in an aircraft |
Let's see.
We have to pay thousands of dollars for a TSO'd radio that performs the
same tasks as a $300 handheld, weighs more, and consumes more power.
We pay even more for a TSO'd GPS system that does no more than its $600
handheld brethern.
And you wonder if cost is the limiting factor on touchscreens, examples
of which can be found on many under-$1000 laptop computers?
That's a hot one.
Steve Maher
San Diego, CA
--- Ken Simmons wrote:
>
>
> I don't recall seeing a touch screen in an aircraft or on any of the
> new systems.
>
> Maybe cost?
>
__________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>9/14/2004
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls, Just sort of in passing twice recently you reminded me
>of an issue of some interest to me. The issue is how and where can we
>learn what is already so obvious (to others) that they assume it is common
>knowledge to all. Purveyors of some materials and tools in our community
>ship these items out without the slightest attempt to inform the buyer how
>to use them.
So what's new? Walk down the isles of Walmart, Target,
Cosco, et. als. and how many products offered come with
one-on-one education on their use. Of course, there are
probably some form of instructions approved by the manufacturer's
legal department . . . but if the instructions fall short of
being educational, well . . .
>The first instance was when you posted this web site page in response to a
>voltage regulator question
><http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218>.
>
>When scrolling through that page I came to the Dynon EFIS D-10 Kit. The
>crimper (for machined D sub pins) and the red and white plastic handled
>pin insert / extract tool in that kit reminded me that I had recently
>purchased similar items and then fumbled for a period of trial and error
>while figuring out how they were supposed to work.
Yup, many of us learned the same way. Sitting at a workbench
at Raytheon, there's usually someone close by who has already
been through the learning exercise and can shorten your own
learning experience and even offer tips for avoiding hidden
hazards. No such assistance resides in your workshop or mine.
This is why the AeroElectric-List and similar endeavors are
so important. This also illustrates the philosophy behind my
consistent advice to everyone who orders new tools and materials
for use on their airplane. ORDER EXTRA materials. Don't make the
very first pin or connector you install one that goes onto
your airplane.
>The second instance was when you posted this web site in response to a
>question on proper connector pins for MS3471W8-33S (Aero 9903) connectors.
><<http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/PV_TBF.pdf>>
>
>When I went to that site some of my questions were answered, but others
>were raised.
Good!
>Can you please provide a brief simplistic nuts and bolts tutorial, or
>steer us to one, on the subject of stripping, crimping, inserting and
>extracting the commonly available machined pins for the commonly available
>D sub connectors?
>
>Some questions still remaining that come to mind:
>
>1) What about this depth of pin insertion into the crimping tool issue?
Any crimping tool worth it's salt is fitted with a positioner
that sets crimp location on the wire grip barrel. The tools
B&C sells are the same ones I used to sell. I discovered that
the stock positioner is not quite correct. Both the AeroElectric
Connection and B&C does some machine work on the supplied positioner
to correct this condition.
I note that some of the "BIG GUYS" are taking advantage of this
particular low-cost tool design. See:
http://www.amphenolconnex.com/47009.asp
http://www.etool.ca/eTool/RENDER/1/56/500/4053.html
I hope they're taking the time to do quality assurance on the
tool's functionality. I'm certain that the prices asked by
these companies is a whole lot higher than B&C's prices.
You may also find them in other catalogs at lower than
B&C's prices . . . but that's the hazards of "pulling them
of the Walmart peg" . . .
>2) How does one assure himself that the pins and tool that he has on hand
>are compatible with regard to pin insertion depth?
For the most part, the same way that an assembler on
Cessna's production line does . . . buy terminals and tools
from "qualified" suppliers. These are generally suppliers that
have complied with ALL the requirements of industrial, commercial
and military specifications. This up-front activity by the
specifying and procuring activities relieves the users from
having to be concerned about it . . . but they still have
to read the instruction manuals.
Your first line of defense against ignorance and error
is your own education. You can do that here on the list
and elsewhere. Next, identify and patronize suppliers
who understand and value the symbiotic relationship
between good service and the return business from
satisfied customers. The price of goods offered seldom
drives these relationships.
>3) Is there, should there be, any user tool adjustment in regard to depth
>of pin insertion?
No. Not for production tools. EVERY tool at Raytheon or any
other place I've worked, tools have positioners that fix the
depth of insertion (locates crimp on wire grip) and adjustable
depth of crimp (which is usually set and sealed by QA). See
pictures at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Crimp_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Crimp_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Crimp_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Crimp_5.jpg
Here's a cross reference list of various tools, positioners
matrixed with a huge array of pins.
http://www.astrotool.com/Products/turrets_&_positioners_for_mil-c-39029_contacts.htm
While net-searching for reference materials, I ran across
this company that offers good used tools at attractive
prices:
http://www.crimptools.com/
>4) Proper wire stripping length is determined by?
. . . a need to clean insulation away from the wire grip area. You can
usually do this by inspection. It's never more than .12" for small pins
and never less than 0.06". As a side note, I don't bother to strip
insulation from tiny wires where they'll fit into the wire grip
area without stripping. You're more likely to damage the wire by
stripping. When you think about it, the gas tight, metal-to-metal
crimp happens with such pressure that NO insulation will get in
the way . . . insulated extrudes out of the joint as the crimp
is made. I've run a variety of tests that showed no difference in
crimp strength or electrical integrity whether or not the wire
was stripped before crimping a pin to it.
>5) What about wire gage, pin, and tool compatibility? A friend has a tool
>that wont properly crimp 24 AWG wire in the pins that he has. My tool
>properly crimps 26 AWG wire in the pins that I have.
Yup, wire grip depth is adjustable on most tools as cited
and illustrated above. The low-cost tool I sold was for 22-20
AWG in standard d-sub pins and not adjustable . . . but if you're
needing to address a variety of pins and wire gages, get
an adjustable tool with interchangeable positioners.
>6) What about the crimpers that make eight indentations into the pins
>rather than just four? Superior? Essential? Where available?
Four is plenty . . . although we're seeing some 12-point
grips . . . the tool I cited at:
http://www.amphenolconnex.com/47009.asp
calls out a 12-point grip feature. If you cross-section a
installed pin and look at it under the microscope, there are
no open-air voids of a 4-point tool installation. I am
mystified as to value of increased complexity for adding more punches
to the tool.
>7) What is the story on the color bands on the pins? Pure decoration or
>are they trying to convey some important information to me?
In the far left column of the chart at
http://www.astrotool.com/Products/turrets_&_positioners_for_mil-c-39029_contacts.htm
you find M39029 series part numbers for pins. The last three
digits of the part number are often striped onto the wire grip
barrel in the same color code as resistors. D-sub pins are
M39029/64-368 and /64-369 so they'll have orn-blu-gry and orn-blu-wht
strips on barrel.
>8) Is there just one size of pins for all sizes of wire for these commonly
>used D sub connectors?
Yes, the two part numbers cited above for standard
d-sub.
>9) What is the largest and smallest size of wire that one should expect to
>be able to use in these pins and connectors?
20-22 AWG for the standard d-sub
22-26 AWG for the hi-density d-sub
>10) About that red and white insert / tool Are the two ends different? If
>so how are they different and how are they to be used?
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/dse-1.jpg
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/dse-1a.jpg
>11) If I buy, say 9 pin D sub connectors, from one seller to our community
>and then later buy some from another seller should I expect the connectors
>to be compatible with each other?
If they're d-subs, they SHOULD be interchangeable . . .
>There are probably other use issues that you are aware of that could
>benefit many of us. I apologize for asking such elementary questions sort
>of like asking for directions on how to use an axe or a hammer, but even
>my grandson, who is undoubtedly one of the brightest kids in the state,
>needs guidance on using those two tools from time to time.
>
>Many thanks for your continued help.
My pleasure.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Touch screen in an aircraft |
Because they lack tactile feedback, most pilots don't like touch screens
in airplanes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Maher
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Touch screen in an aircraft
Let's see.
We have to pay thousands of dollars for a TSO'd radio that performs the
same tasks as a $300 handheld, weighs more, and consumes more power.
We pay even more for a TSO'd GPS system that does no more than its $600
handheld brethern.
And you wonder if cost is the limiting factor on touchscreens, examples
of which can be found on many under-$1000 laptop computers?
That's a hot one.
Steve Maher
San Diego, CA
--- Ken Simmons wrote:
>
>
> I don't recall seeing a touch screen in an aircraft or on any of the
> new systems.
>
> Maybe cost?
>
__________________________________
==
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | f1rocket(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Sam James Cowl and Plenum |
Go to www.rv-8.com and read Randy Lervold's comments regarding same.
Randy P.
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
-------------- Original message --------------
>
>
> I'm seriously considering a Sam James Cowl and Plenum . . . I will probably
> be installing some form of a carbureted 0-360 with either a Hartzell or
> Whirlwind c/s prop?!
>
> For those of you that have done it:
>
> Do you believe you gained the 10mph claimed?
>
> What if any are the watch-outs for engine and propeller.
>
> Would you do it again?
>
> Are there any other "speed mods" that provide a good bang for the buck?
>
> If I go down this path, I have an extra cowl (Van's, O-360 carb, c/s prop)
> anybody interested??
>
> Thanks,
> Bob Christensen
> RV-8 Builder in SE Iowa
>
>
>
>
>
>
Go to www.rv-8.com and read Randy Lervold's comments regarding same.
Randy P.
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Maureen Bob Christensen"
I'm seriously considering a Sam James Cowl and Plenum . . . I will probably
be installing some form of a carbureted 0-360 with either a Hartzell or
Whirlwind c/s prop?!
For those of you that have done it:
Do you believe you gained the 10mph claimed?
What if any are the watch-outs for engine and propeller.
Would you do it again?
Are there any other "speed mods" that provide a good bang for the buck?
If I go down this path, I have an extra cowl (Van's, O-360 carb, c/s prop)
anybody interested??
Thanks,
Bob Christensen
RV-8 Builder in SE
Iowa
list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Simmons" <ken(at)truckstop.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Touch screen in an aircraft |
Those comments are interesting, but I guess I don't see your point. Maybe I wasn't
specific enough. I forget sometimes that this list is not just for experimentals.
For an experimental, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on TSO'd
equipment. A handheld or portable GPS is perfectly acceptable.
Many companies are developing products for experimentals with little or no intent
of a TSO. Is there some reason they haven't chosen to use touch screens? This
might give them an edge over the competition, assuming it's feasable. I've
seen a couple of homebrew EFIS systems that used laptop/computer type LCD displays,
but they weren't touch screen. The displays certainly weren't TSO'd.
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Steve Maher <lilabner_45(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Let's see.
>
>We have to pay thousands of dollars for a TSO'd radio that performs the
>same tasks as a $300 handheld, weighs more, and consumes more power.
>
>We pay even more for a TSO'd GPS system that does no more than its $600
>handheld brethern.
>
>And you wonder if cost is the limiting factor on touchscreens, examples
>of which can be found on many under-$1000 laptop computers?
>
>That's a hot one.
>
>Steve Maher
>San Diego, CA
>
>
>--- Ken Simmons wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I don't recall seeing a touch screen in an aircraft or on any of the
>> new systems.
>>
>> Maybe cost?
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Flood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com> |
Hello all,
I am going to use Avery clear sticky backed labels on my instrument panel. I
bought the kind that are a full sheet and you print out on your ink jet.
Anyway, I was wondering if someone had a template or example of the labels
they printed. What I am trying to do is not start from scratch making up all
the borders around the text and what not when everyone seems to have all
ready done this. It would be so much easier just to change the text. I have
looked around on the internet an only come up with one example made in Visio
which does me no good considering I don't have Visio( sp?) I have followed
Bob's architecture pretty closely so hopefully about 90% of yourtext would
work perfectly for me.
Thanks, for all the help...
Bryan
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Touch screen in an aircraft |
One word: turbulence.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Simmons
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Touch screen in an aircraft
Those comments are interesting, but I guess I don't see your point. Maybe I
wasn't specific enough. I forget sometimes that this list is not just for
experimentals. For an experimental, you don't have to spend thousands of
dollars on TSO'd equipment. A handheld or portable GPS is perfectly
acceptable.
Many companies are developing products for experimentals with little or no
intent of a TSO. Is there some reason they haven't chosen to use touch
screens? This might give them an edge over the competition, assuming it's
feasable. I've seen a couple of homebrew EFIS systems that used
laptop/computer type LCD displays, but they weren't touch screen. The
displays certainly weren't TSO'd.
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Steve Maher <lilabner_45(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Let's see.
>
>We have to pay thousands of dollars for a TSO'd radio that performs the
>same tasks as a $300 handheld, weighs more, and consumes more power.
>
>We pay even more for a TSO'd GPS system that does no more than its $600
>handheld brethern.
>
>And you wonder if cost is the limiting factor on touchscreens, examples
>of which can be found on many under-$1000 laptop computers?
>
>That's a hot one.
>
>Steve Maher
>San Diego, CA
>
>
>--- Ken Simmons wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I don't recall seeing a touch screen in an aircraft or on any of the
>> new systems.
>>
>> Maybe cost?
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
There is software available that formats MS Word for most sheets of Avery
labels, and probably others that can be used in Microsoft Word. I'm not
sure where mine came from, but here is a source:
http://www.worldlabel.com/Pages/software.htm
This of course doesn't have all the borders and font sizes that you may
want, but it sure makes it easier to create your own labels.
Terry
Hello all,
I am going to use Avery clear sticky backed labels on my instrument panel. I
bought the kind that are a full sheet and you print out on your ink jet.
Anyway, I was wondering if someone had a template or example of the labels
they printed. What I am trying to do is not start from scratch making up all
the borders around the text and what not when everyone seems to have all
ready done this. It would be so much easier just to change the text. I have
looked around on the internet an only come up with one example made in Visio
which does me no good considering I don't have Visio( sp?) I have followed
Bob's architecture pretty closely so hopefully about 90% of yourtext would
work perfectly for me.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Simmons" <ken(at)truckstop.com> |
| Subject: | Touch screen in an aircraft |
Thanks for the reply. I think that would certainly be a consideration, but I don't
see how this would be much different from some of the fancy equipment with
those small push buttons. Wouldn't turbulence be a factor in those as well?
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:13:24 -0700
>
>One word: turbulence.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Rob Housman
>Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
>Airframe complete
>Irvine, CA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
>Simmons
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Touch screen in an aircraft
>
>
>Those comments are interesting, but I guess I don't see your point. Maybe I
>wasn't specific enough. I forget sometimes that this list is not just for
>experimentals. For an experimental, you don't have to spend thousands of
>dollars on TSO'd equipment. A handheld or portable GPS is perfectly
>acceptable.
>
>Many companies are developing products for experimentals with little or no
>intent of a TSO. Is there some reason they haven't chosen to use touch
>screens? This might give them an edge over the competition, assuming it's
>feasable. I've seen a couple of homebrew EFIS systems that used
>laptop/computer type LCD displays, but they weren't touch screen. The
>displays certainly weren't TSO'd.
>
>Ken
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: Steve Maher <lilabner_45(at)yahoo.com>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>>
>>Let's see.
>>
>>We have to pay thousands of dollars for a TSO'd radio that performs the
>>same tasks as a $300 handheld, weighs more, and consumes more power.
>>
>>We pay even more for a TSO'd GPS system that does no more than its $600
>>handheld brethern.
>>
>>And you wonder if cost is the limiting factor on touchscreens, examples
>>of which can be found on many under-$1000 laptop computers?
>>
>>That's a hot one.
>>
>>Steve Maher
>>San Diego, CA
>>
>>
>>--- Ken Simmons wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't recall seeing a touch screen in an aircraft or on any of the
>>> new systems.
>>>
>>> Maybe cost?
>>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Good" <chrisjgood(at)lycos.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Sticky Labels |
Bryan,
I used Avery labels type 8667 & they are holding up pretty well after 775 hours.
On my switch panel, I did spray a coat of clear lacqer after attaching the
labels & I think that did improve the look.
Here's my panel web page with some photos:
http://www.rv.supermatrix.com/photo-log/panel.html
I'm also attaching the ms word doc file in case you want to use it as a starting
point (hence the direct email since the list strips attachments).
Regards,
Chris Good,
West Bend, WI
RV-6A 775 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Flood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:39:43 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sticky Labels
Hello all,
I am going to use Avery clear sticky backed labels on my instrument panel. I
bought the kind that are a full sheet and you print out on your ink jet.
Anyway, I was wondering if someone had a template or example of the labels
they printed. What I am trying to do is not start from scratch making up all
the borders around the text and what not when everyone seems to have all
ready done this. It would be so much easier just to change the text. I have
looked around on the internet an only come up with one example made in Visio
which does me no good considering I don't have Visio( sp?) I have followed
Bob's architecture pretty closely so hopefully about 90% of yourtext would
work perfectly for me.
Thanks, for all the help...
Bryan
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Touch screen in an aircraft |
You are right of course, but small mechanical buttons, for example, provide
at least some level of tactile feedback, something completely lacking on a
flat panel display.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Simmons
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Touch screen in an aircraft
Thanks for the reply. I think that would certainly be a consideration, but I
don't see how this would be much different from some of the fancy equipment
with those small push buttons. Wouldn't turbulence be a factor in those as
well?
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:13:24 -0700
<RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
>
>One word: turbulence.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Rob Housman
>Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
>Airframe complete
>Irvine, CA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken
>Simmons
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Touch screen in an aircraft
>
>
>Those comments are interesting, but I guess I don't see your point. Maybe I
>wasn't specific enough. I forget sometimes that this list is not just for
>experimentals. For an experimental, you don't have to spend thousands of
>dollars on TSO'd equipment. A handheld or portable GPS is perfectly
>acceptable.
>
>Many companies are developing products for experimentals with little or no
>intent of a TSO. Is there some reason they haven't chosen to use touch
>screens? This might give them an edge over the competition, assuming it's
>feasable. I've seen a couple of homebrew EFIS systems that used
>laptop/computer type LCD displays, but they weren't touch screen. The
>displays certainly weren't TSO'd.
>
>Ken
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: Steve Maher <lilabner_45(at)yahoo.com>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>>
>>Let's see.
>>
>>We have to pay thousands of dollars for a TSO'd radio that performs the
>>same tasks as a $300 handheld, weighs more, and consumes more power.
>>
>>We pay even more for a TSO'd GPS system that does no more than its $600
>>handheld brethern.
>>
>>And you wonder if cost is the limiting factor on touchscreens, examples
>>of which can be found on many under-$1000 laptop computers?
>>
>>That's a hot one.
>>
>>Steve Maher
>>San Diego, CA
>>
>>
>>--- Ken Simmons wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't recall seeing a touch screen in an aircraft or on any of the
>>> new systems.
>>>
>>> Maybe cost?
>>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Touch screen in an aircraft |
In a message dated 9/15/04 12:15:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
RobH@hyperion-ef.com writes:
> One word: turbulence.
>>>
This is true, but these: http://www.truetip.com/ help. I use them on my
panel-mounted Dell PDAs using PCFlightSystems EFIS/GPS software and they are
useful for poking the touch screens on the PDAs. I'm actually more concerned
about breaking the little knobs off my Microair radios in turbulence than making
display pokes on the PDAs!
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark -6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Touch screen in an aircraft |
When designing my engine monitors I gave this a lot of thought. Touch
screens are good for configuring things on the ground, but not good in
actually use. Look at the GPS systems for cars and such.
As far as buttons go, again look at the cars. Most of the radios in cars are
actually going back to knobs for the volume as it is easy to find in the
dark while you are driving. I know I gave a radio away because I could not
find the volume buttons in the dark with out actually looking at the radio.
Thus when I designed my engine monitor I went with a simple knob that you
can find blind folded in turbulence.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Touch screen in an aircraft
In a message dated 9/15/04 12:15:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
RobH@hyperion-ef.com writes:
> One word: turbulence.
>>>
This is true, but these: http://www.truetip.com/ help. I use them on my
panel-mounted Dell PDAs using PCFlightSystems EFIS/GPS software and they are
useful for poking the touch screens on the PDAs. I'm actually more
concerned
about breaking the little knobs off my Microair radios in turbulence than
making
display pokes on the PDAs!
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark -6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Touch screen in an aircraft |
Years ago some company built a beautiful encoder that had some kind of
slides to set the digits. Pilots immediately found that setting the codes in
turbulence was simply impossible.
Pilots have lost their front teeth with hand-held microphones. So the next
time you fly in turbulence, consider whether or not a touch screen would be
a good idea. I think not, but if you could properly stabilize the pilot's
hand....maybe.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Touch screen in an aircraft |
Hello Guys,
My thoughts are that we should not be too quick to write this idea off. A
future touch screen could be very large with large graphics and icons that
feedback with a tone, click or take your pick sound in your headset. Perhaps
the graphic would flash brightly as you peck it with your pointy finger.
(Didn't they find one large touch screen in the UFO that crashed at area 51?)
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Touch screen in an aircraft |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Along those lines, I think it would be slick if each avionics device was
designed
to be remotely controlled by something like a wheel/hatswitch arrangement on
the throttle and stick. A universal control interface could be devised
that each
manufacturer would comply with. You want to set the transponder, you roll
the thumbwheel on the throttle around until the LED over the transponder
was lit,
press the active button (also on the stick or throttle) to start adjusting
digits using
the wheel and the active button. Once the correct code is entered, press the
active button one final time, which frees the wheel to select a different
device.
I definitely like the HOTAS concept. A hatswitch (or something like the
rubbery
mouse control from a laptop) on the stick would be a nice way to control
the cursor
position on certain devices (like moving map displays). Who's not used to a
mouse (or maybe even trackball) style interface?
The thing about stabilizing the hand over a touch screen is that the touch
screen
is designed to be looked at. As soon as you put your hand up there, it
blocks the
screen. The act of setting your hand on something to stabilize it seems
like it might
make seeing the screen difficult. Maybe if you had a nice pad under the
screen,
your palm could rest against it, and you could rotate your hand up and
down to access
the screen. Seems like a good way to get carpal tunnel syndrome.
From my experience in the semiconductor manufacturing world, machines with
touch
screen interfaces are easy to learn by the novice, but usually become more
cumbersome
to operate than mouse/keyboard/dedicated button controlled devices. One
thing that
I think contributes to this is that tactile qualities of the best touch
screens do not come
close to the crispness and positiveness of operation of rather cheap knobs
and switches.
One final thing about touch screens... The displays on the panel which
are the easiest
to see while your "head is out of the cockpit" are those that are mounted
high on the panel.
If its mounted high on the panel, it is going to be the hardest to put
your hand on and
keep it in place while experiencing turbulence. Further, if you mount the
display low on
the panel, I believe looking down to see it increases the likelihood of
experiencing
vertigo.
Regards,
Matt-
C150 N714BK VE N34RD
>
>
> Years ago some company built a beautiful encoder that had some kind of
> slides to set the digits. Pilots immediately found that setting the
> codes in turbulence was simply impossible.
>
> Pilots have lost their front teeth with hand-held microphones. So the
> next time you fly in turbulence, consider whether or not a touch screen
> would be a good idea. I think not, but if you could properly stabilize
> the pilot's hand....maybe.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | erie <erie(at)shelbyvilledesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Touch screen in an aircraft |
I also buld custom home theaters, mostly using touch screen pc's for a
system remote. My solution at home
(wife hates the touchscreen) is to have a row of buttons on the left,
using little clear sticky feet stuck on the touchscreen,
she gets 'hard buttons' that she can press for system on/off, volume and
source selection....sometimes you just have to think
outside the box.
erie
KITFOXZ(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>Hello Guys,
>
>My thoughts are that we should not be too quick to write this idea off. A
>future touch screen could be very large with large graphics and icons that
>feedback with a tone, click or take your pick sound in your headset. Perhaps
>the graphic would flash brightly as you peck it with your pointy finger.
>(Didn't they find one large touch screen in the UFO that crashed at area 51?)
>
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Touch screen in an aircraft |
John,
And look what happened to them! :-)
Charlie Kuss
do not achieve
>snipped
>(Didn't they find one large touch screen in the UFO that crashed at area
>51?)
>
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Grounding in the Fuel Level System |
I have a pair of Stewart-Warner sensors for the left and right tank on my RV-8A.
Since the sensor is grounded to the wing while the indicator is grounded to
the fuselage, I wonder if anyone has encountered measurement problems due to
a high-resistance connection between wing and fuselage. The sensor resistance
range is 30 to 248 ohms and the indicator supplies about 4.8 volts for a range
of about .16 to .002 amps. Is it advisable to bridge the wing-fuselage joint
with a jumper strap? Does it matter where the indicator is grounded? How does
the sensor find a ground path through all the sealant and gaskets used to
prevent fuel leakage?
Dave Reel RV-8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gert <gert(at)execpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding in the Fuel Level System |
No but I had problems with both sensors not making good contact with the
tank through the proseal, I ended up putting a ground wire on each sender.
DAVID REEL wrote:
>
> I have a pair of Stewart-Warner sensors for the left and right tank on my RV-8A.
Since the sensor is grounded to the wing while the indicator is grounded
to the fuselage, I wonder if anyone has encountered measurement problems due to
a high-resistance connection between wing and fuselage. The sensor resistance
range is 30 to 248 ohms and the indicator supplies about 4.8 volts for a range
of about .16 to .002 amps. Is it advisable to bridge the wing-fuselage joint
with a jumper strap? Does it matter where the indicator is grounded? How
does the sensor find a ground path through all the sealant and gaskets used to
prevent fuel leakage?
>
> Dave Reel RV-8A
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dennymortensen <dennymortensen(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Touch screen in an aircraft |
In the days of yore Gateway Computers offered a laptop called a Solo that had a
miniature hard wired track ball. The
ball was maybe the size of a small marble and the holder maybe 1 and 1/2 inches
square. It was extremely handy and
easy to use I would love to get hold of something like that again. You just held
it in the palm of your hand. I have
also seen a wireless mouse that is operated by just moving your hand around in
the air and using trigger switches for
the click functions. I am thinking of trying something like that when I get that
far. I also work with touch screens
in my day job and don't recommend them for aircraft use. Actually I don't recommend
them for any use.
2 cents and change
Denny
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Touch screen in an aircraft
Along those lines, I think it would be slick if each avionics device was
designed
to be remotely controlled by something like a wheel/hatswitch arrangement on
the throttle and stick.
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:10 , 'Matt Prather' sent:
>
>Along those lines, I think it would be slick if each avionics device was
>designed
>to be remotely controlled by something like a wheel/hatswitch arrangement on
>the throttle and stick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding in the Fuel Level System |
>
>I have a pair of Stewart-Warner sensors for the left and right tank on my
>RV-8A. Since the sensor is grounded to the wing while the indicator is
>grounded to the fuselage, I wonder if anyone has encountered measurement
>problems due to a high-resistance connection between wing and
>fuselage. The sensor resistance range is 30 to 248 ohms and the indicator
>supplies about 4.8 volts for a range of about .16 to .002 amps. Is it
>advisable to bridge the wing-fuselage joint with a jumper strap?
Sure. My new designs never depend on airframe
continuity for functionality. A high quality ground
is part of the planning.
> Does it matter where the indicator is grounded?
The best place is the single-point ground on the
firewall . . . or bring the ground (signal low) line
back to the instrument. It's sad that for everything we've
observed and learned about fuel gaging in automobiles for
the last 50 years that we're not doing much better today
in cars . . . of course we EXPECT airplanes to lag behind
cars by 20 years or so.
> How does the sensor find a ground path through all the sealant and
> gaskets used to prevent fuel leakage?
The difficult thing is to maintain insulation in most
cases. There are many a failure mode for electronic
devices where some tiny conductor has compromised the
insulation between two parts that are not supposed to
be connected. If you have threaded fasteners or rivets
holding two parts together, it's a rare instance that
clamp up forces won't extrude any insulating materials
out of the joint.
In a nutshell, the best thought out fuel gaging systems
will be completely isolated from and have no dependence on
chassis or airframe ground for operation.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | RAC wire color codes |
Listers,
Has anyone out there purchased and installed a Ray Allen Stick grip? I'm
waiting for mine. I'd like to draw up the schematic while I wait. Could you
please tell me the color codes of the wires on the servos? I also would
like the color codes on the wire that they include with the grip kit.
Thanks
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding in the Fuel Level System |
Hi,
I have the SW fuel senders as well, shown here in this photo:
http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20040726220023545_5_original.JPG
Can you tell me the best way to ground it?
I'm guessing one way is to drill a small hole, thread it, and
screw on a faston or just screw on a ring terminal. Does
this sound right? Of course, I don't want to go through
the plate, since it's already prosealed on, and I'd like to
avoid removing it again. I feel kind of silly that I didn't
think of this before I sealed up my tanks.
Thanks for any hints.
Mickey
>> How does the sensor find a ground path through all the sealant and
>> gaskets used to prevent fuel leakage?
>
> The difficult thing is to maintain insulation in most
> cases. There are many a failure mode for electronic
> devices where some tiny conductor has compromised the
> insulation between two parts that are not supposed to
> be connected. If you have threaded fasteners or rivets
> holding two parts together, it's a rare instance that
> clamp up forces won't extrude any insulating materials
> out of the joint.
>
> In a nutshell, the best thought out fuel gaging systems
> will be completely isolated from and have no dependence on
> chassis or airframe ground for operation.
>
> Bob . . .
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
Good morning fellow electron chasers...
Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
need it!)
I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
questions.
I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
mounted them?
Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
that works?
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
www.agelesswings.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding in the Fuel Level System |
In a message dated 9/16/04 9:44:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch writes:
> I'm guessing one way is to drill a small hole, thread it, and
> screw on a faston or just screw on a ring terminal. Does
> this sound right? Of course, I don't want to go through
> the plate, since it's already prosealed on, and I'd like to
> avoid removing it again. I feel kind of silly that I didn't
> think of this before I sealed up my tanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
The mounting base for the sender is thick enough to tap 8-32 (I did this on
my first tank) but removing one of the mounting screws and adding a ground wire
using a ring terminal and a star washer (I did this on my other tank) works
fine. Just put the star washer between the base and the ring terminal for good
contact. I ran the other end of the ground wire to another ring terminal
attached to a hole in the fuse skin just fwd of the front tank attach bracket.
Works fine so far. (110 hrs, -6A)
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Riley <richard(at)riley.net> BODY": richard(at)RILEY.NET |
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT 0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY |
HTML title contains no text
1) Inside the spar
2) Can't you do it with a 36" dipole?
At 09:05 AM 9/16/04, Harley wrote:
>
>Good morning fellow electron chasers...
>
>Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
>answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
>need it!)
>
>I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
>and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
>questions.
>
>I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
>can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
>mounted them?
>
>Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
>instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
>plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
>Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
>that works?
>
>Harley Dixon
>Long EZ N28EZ
>www.agelesswings.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> |
Chris - does the ink not smear with humidity over time, or is this part of
the role of the lacqer?
Thanks, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
Good
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sticky Labels
Bryan,
I used Avery labels type 8667 & they are holding up pretty well after 775
hours. On my switch panel, I did spray a coat of clear lacqer after
attaching the labels & I think that did improve the look.
Here's my panel web page with some photos:
http://www.rv.supermatrix.com/photo-log/panel.html
I'm also attaching the ms word doc file in case you want to use it as a
starting point (hence the direct email since the list strips attachments).
Regards,
Chris Good,
West Bend, WI
RV-6A 775 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Flood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:39:43 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sticky Labels
Hello all,
I am going to use Avery clear sticky backed labels on my instrument panel. I
bought the kind that are a full sheet and you print out on your ink jet.
Anyway, I was wondering if someone had a template or example of the labels
they printed. What I am trying to do is not start from scratch making up all
the borders around the text and what not when everyone seems to have all
ready done this. It would be so much easier just to change the text. I have
looked around on the internet an only come up with one example made in Visio
which does me no good considering I don't have Visio( sp?) I have followed
Bob's architecture pretty closely so hopefully about 90% of yourtext would
work perfectly for me.
Thanks, for all the help...
Bryan
--
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System
on behalf of the London Business School community.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
---
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Good" <chrisjgood(at)lycos.com> |
Steve,
The lacquer certainly helps in preventing any degradation. But I have a few labels
without lacquer, added after the panel was completed, & they're holding up
well after 4 yrs & 775 hrs.
BTW, I think that putting the border around each label was originally Sam Buchanan's
idea. The edge of the label is disguised with this technique.
Regards,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:33:48 +0100
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Sticky Labels
Chris - does the ink not smear with humidity over time, or is this part of
the role of the lacqer?
Thanks, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
Good
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sticky Labels
Bryan,
I used Avery labels type 8667 & they are holding up pretty well after 775
hours. On my switch panel, I did spray a coat of clear lacqer after
attaching the labels & I think that did improve the look.
Here's my panel web page with some photos:
http://www.rv.supermatrix.com/photo-log/panel.html
I'm also attaching the ms word doc file in case you want to use it as a
starting point (hence the direct email since the list strips attachments).
Regards,
Chris Good,
West Bend, WI
RV-6A 775 hours
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schertz" <Wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY: |
HTML title contains no text
you can use 6 strips of copper foil 18" long on the composite surface looking like
* with the antenna in the center. I have a picture that I will send you later
tonight.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: Harley [mailto:harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
title contains no text
>
> Good morning fellow electron chasers...
>
> Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
> answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
> need it!)
>
> I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
> and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
> questions.
>
> I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
> can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
> mounted them?
>
> Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
> instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
> plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
> Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
> that works?
>
> Harley Dixon
> Long EZ N28EZ
> www.agelesswings.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
BODY": HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY |
Thanks Bill...that looks like a real possibility....but. from the
picture, it's hard to tell where you have the antenna mounted. I can't
think of anywhere with that much room on top of my plane...which I would
think is where you'd want it.
Harley
Bill Schertz wrote:
>
>you can use 6 strips of copper foil 18" long on the composite surface looking
like * with the antenna in the center. I have a picture that I will send you later
tonight.
>Bill Schertz
>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Harley [mailto:harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
title contains no text
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Good morning fellow electron chasers...
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>need it!)
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>questions.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>mounted them?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>that works?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Harley Dixon
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Long EZ N28EZ
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>www.agelesswings.com
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
>
>Bob, others:
>
>Greg Richter at Blue Mountain Avionics has just posted a short (24 page?)
>booklet he has written for his customers. I haven't read it yet, but I like
>Greg's attitude and I expect it to be very worthwhile. You might like to
>have a look.
>
>http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download.php
>
>Terry
>RV-8A, Blue Mountain EFIS/one wiring still
>Seattle
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Wiring_for_Smart_People.pdf
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Education Redux |
>
>9/16/2004
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls, Your response (identified below) on the aeroelectric
>list to my request for Education was absolutely superb a veritable gold
>mine of information in the many links you provided. I've saved your
>response for posterity. We are in your debt. Many thanks.
My pleasure sir!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "davercook" <davercook(at)Prodigy.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire Stripper |
Bob and Listers
I apologize for saying my wire stripper came from B&C .I was wrong! After I
checked my invoice for other tools that I purchased from them the strippers
was not on there.I don't know where I bought it . Sorry for the
misstatement.
Dave Cook
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Stripper
>
>
> >
> >Radio Shack has a new one out that works very well. It has no dies and no
> >holes. It automatically adjusts to the wire size. Cost about $19 I could
> >not get the one from B&C to work for me at all.
>
> What stripper did you buy from B&C? I don't see one on their
> website and was unaware of any strippers they were offering.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY: |
HTML title contains no text
My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum bracket.
the ground plane is on the fuselage floor, curving with the curvature of the
fuse. Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harley" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY:
HTML title contains no text
>
> Thanks Bill...that looks like a real possibility....but. from the
> picture, it's hard to tell where you have the antenna mounted. I can't
> think of anywhere with that much room on top of my plane...which I would
> think is where you'd want it.
>
> Harley
>
> Bill Schertz wrote:
>
> >
> >you can use 6 strips of copper foil 18" long on the composite surface
looking like * with the antenna in the center. I have a picture that I will
send you later tonight.
> >Bill Schertz
> >KIS Cruiser # 4045
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Harley [mailto:harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
> >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Good morning fellow electron chasers...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>need it!)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>questions.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>mounted them?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>that works?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Harley Dixon
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Long EZ N28EZ
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>www.agelesswings.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
BODY": HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY |
Morning, Bill...
Thanks for sticking with me on this....
>>My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum
bracket....
the ground plane is on the fuselage floor<<
That's what I thought from the picture, but doesn't that put the antenna
inside the fuselage?
>>Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?<<
There is no "roof" in a Long... just the canopy and a small foam and
glass section over the rear passengers head...about a foot long (fore
and aft) and the width of the canopy. I might be able to mount something
like that in the cowling...but if the engine departs the plane, or even
just the cowl, then no signal! Also, with the antenna pointing down,
like under the plane, or down from the top, wouldn't that be a bad place
for it (unless I can rig the plane to always flip over in an emergency! )
Someone else mentioned a dipole, or a even a folded dipole, which would
fit inside the spar behind the passenger's head, but I would think that
that would be too directional.
Don't even have enough room on the strake without getting into the gas
tank. The floor/fuselage side looks like the only place that is wide
and long enough, but can the antenna be placed remotely from the ground
plane, say on the turtledeck, or does that defeat the purpose of the
ground plane? Does it have to be close to the antenna?
Where have other Long or Vari Ez drivers put their ELT antennas and how
have they solved the ground plane problem?
Harley
Long EZ N28EZ
William wrote:
>
>My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum bracket.
>
>the ground plane is on the fuselage floor, curving with the curvature of the
>fuse. Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?
>Bill Schertz
>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harley" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
>To: HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY:
>HTML title contains no text
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Thanks Bill...that looks like a real possibility....but. from the
>>picture, it's hard to tell where you have the antenna mounted. I can't
>>think of anywhere with that much room on top of my plane...which I would
>>think is where you'd want it.
>>
>>Harley
>>
>>Bill Schertz wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>you can use 6 strips of copper foil 18" long on the composite surface
>>>
>>>
>looking like * with the antenna in the center. I have a picture that I will
>send you later tonight.
>
>
>>>Bill Schertz
>>>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: Harley [mailto:harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
>>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY
>>>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Good morning fellow electron chasers...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>need it!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>questions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>mounted them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>that works?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Harley Dixon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Long EZ N28EZ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>www.agelesswings.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Aircraft Wiring for So-Called Smart People |
I agree with Bob N. And is the "Bare-Knuckles " thing a poke at the champ?
Teflon---I was a design engineer in medical devices for decades and remember
the time when Teflon came and went. Teflon seemed to be a miracle at the
time...but as time went on almost every single thing we made of "Miracle
Teflon" evolved into some other material that was cheaper and performed far
better.
We transitioned from an attitude of "...Let's use Teflon!" to "...use Teflon
only if you are absolutely certain it is critical to the design." (And it
almost never is.) Even as pipe-thread sealant, Teflon needs some
reconsideration.
(As I vaguely recall...) One NTSB examiner commented on an aviation accident
blamed partly on Teflon failure in a DC10(?)--"Teflon has no place in
aircraft design." This was an epiphany for me.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
(Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William" <wschertz(at)ispwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY: |
HTML title contains no text
Yes my ELT antenna is inside the fuselage, i have a composite plane.
the antenna basically needs to be centered in the 'ground plane', from what
I understand.
A builder (E-racer) at my airport has the ground plane as a foil coating on
the inside of the fuse right behind the passenger seat, and then the ELT
antenna running up the back of the seat. Don't know how effective that is.
Jim Weir designed a 'dipole' version once, and in response to the question
of orientation, asked how you know what direction will be 'up' when you have
finished crashing.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harley" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY:
HTML title contains no text
>
> Morning, Bill...
>
> Thanks for sticking with me on this....
>
> >>My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum
> bracket....
> the ground plane is on the fuselage floor<<
>
> That's what I thought from the picture, but doesn't that put the antenna
> inside the fuselage?
>
> >>Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?<<
>
> There is no "roof" in a Long... just the canopy and a small foam and
> glass section over the rear passengers head...about a foot long (fore
> and aft) and the width of the canopy. I might be able to mount something
> like that in the cowling...but if the engine departs the plane, or even
> just the cowl, then no signal! Also, with the antenna pointing down,
> like under the plane, or down from the top, wouldn't that be a bad place
> for it (unless I can rig the plane to always flip over in an emergency!
)
>
> Someone else mentioned a dipole, or a even a folded dipole, which would
> fit inside the spar behind the passenger's head, but I would think that
> that would be too directional.
>
> Don't even have enough room on the strake without getting into the gas
> tank. The floor/fuselage side looks like the only place that is wide
> and long enough, but can the antenna be placed remotely from the ground
> plane, say on the turtledeck, or does that defeat the purpose of the
> ground plane? Does it have to be close to the antenna?
>
> Where have other Long or Vari Ez drivers put their ELT antennas and how
> have they solved the ground plane problem?
>
> Harley
> Long EZ N28EZ
>
>
> William wrote:
>
> >
> >My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum
bracket.
> >
> >the ground plane is on the fuselage floor, curving with the curvature of
the
> >fuse. Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?
> >Bill Schertz
> >KIS Cruiser # 4045
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Harley" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
> >To: >HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY:
> >HTML title contains no text
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Thanks Bill...that looks like a real possibility....but. from the
> >>picture, it's hard to tell where you have the antenna mounted. I can't
> >>think of anywhere with that much room on top of my plane...which I would
> >>think is where you'd want it.
> >>
> >>Harley
> >>
> >>Bill Schertz wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >>>you can use 6 strips of copper foil 18" long on the composite surface
> >>>
> >>>
> >looking like * with the antenna in the center. I have a picture that I
will
> >send you later tonight.
> >
> >
> >>>Bill Schertz
> >>>KIS Cruiser # 4045
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: Harley [mailto:harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
> >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Good morning fellow electron chasers...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>need it!)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for
mounting
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple
of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>questions.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where
I
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>mounted them?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter
ground
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>that works?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Harley Dixon
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Long EZ N28EZ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>www.agelesswings.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Pengilly <pengilly(at)southwest.com.au> |
BODY": HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY |
My answer is buy a portable that fits in your top pocket then if you
have to ditch in water you still have
a beacon.also it can be used in the car in the desert if you become
stranded i.e.: bogged broken down etc.
Regards
Paul
Harley wrote:
>
>Morning, Bill...
>
>Thanks for sticking with me on this....
>
> >>My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum
>bracket....
>the ground plane is on the fuselage floor<<
>
>That's what I thought from the picture, but doesn't that put the antenna
>inside the fuselage?
>
> >>Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?<<
>
>There is no "roof" in a Long... just the canopy and a small foam and
>glass section over the rear passengers head...about a foot long (fore
>and aft) and the width of the canopy. I might be able to mount something
>like that in the cowling...but if the engine departs the plane, or even
>just the cowl, then no signal! Also, with the antenna pointing down,
>like under the plane, or down from the top, wouldn't that be a bad place
>for it (unless I can rig the plane to always flip over in an emergency! )
>
>Someone else mentioned a dipole, or a even a folded dipole, which would
>fit inside the spar behind the passenger's head, but I would think that
>that would be too directional.
>
>Don't even have enough room on the strake without getting into the gas
>tank. The floor/fuselage side looks like the only place that is wide
>and long enough, but can the antenna be placed remotely from the ground
>plane, say on the turtledeck, or does that defeat the purpose of the
>ground plane? Does it have to be close to the antenna?
>
>Where have other Long or Vari Ez drivers put their ELT antennas and how
>have they solved the ground plane problem?
>
>Harley
>Long EZ N28EZ
>
>
>William wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum bracket.
>>
>>the ground plane is on the fuselage floor, curving with the curvature of the
>>fuse. Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?
>>Bill Schertz
>>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Harley" <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
>>To: >HTML.title.contains.no.text(at)matronics.com>
>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY:
>>HTML title contains no text
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Thanks Bill...that looks like a real possibility....but. from the
>>>picture, it's hard to tell where you have the antenna mounted. I can't
>>>think of anywhere with that much room on top of my plane...which I would
>>>think is where you'd want it.
>>>
>>>Harley
>>>
>>>Bill Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>you can use 6 strips of copper foil 18" long on the composite surface
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>looking like * with the antenna in the center. I have a picture that I will
>>send you later tonight.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Bill Schertz
>>>>KIS Cruiser # 4045
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Harley [mailto:harley(at)AgelessWings.com]
>>>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ameri-King ELT0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Good morning fellow electron chasers...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, time to stop lurking and ask a question (which has probably been
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>answered before, but I didn't pay attention then as I didn't know I'd
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>need it!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I just received my Ameri-King AK 450 ELT. The instructions for mounting
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>and locating it seem pretty straight forward, but I do have a couple of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I have a Long EZ...nearing completion. I have a couple ideas of where I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>can mount the ELT. To save some trial and error, where have others
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>mounted them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Also, I am sure that this has been discussed before, but the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>instructions for mounting the antenna call for a 36 inch diameter ground
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>plane! Where can I ever mount a piece of aluminum that big in a Long
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ez? The darn thing will look like an AWACS! Or is their another way
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>that works?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Harley Dixon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Long EZ N28EZ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>www.agelesswings.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
Morning, Paul...
(First, I deleted some of the older messages...this was getting a bit
too long! )
Thanks for the advice...actually, this Ameri-King unit is portable...it
uses Duracell D-cells for the power, and comes with an additional
telescoping antenna, and a clip type mount for easy removal and use "off
vehicle". It also has a microphone input so you can talk to rescue people.
It's a bit heavy and large to stick in a pocket though, but for a back
pack or road vehicle, it would also be a good choice.
Portability and manual activation is all well-and-good, but, in the
event that it has to be activated automatically on impact, and the
pilot/passengers are not conscious, this would most likely not be an
option and would depend on the installed antenna. In Ameri King's
manual, they specifically forbid trying to use it in the automatic mode
with the portable antenna installed.
Harley
Paul Pengilly wrote:
>
>My answer is buy a portable that fits in your top pocket then if you
>have to ditch in water you still have
>a beacon.also it can be used in the car in the desert if you become
>stranded i.e.: bogged broken down etc.
>Regards
>Paul
>
>Harley wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Morning, Bill...
>>
>>Thanks for sticking with me on this....
>>
>>
>>
>>>>My antenna is mounted at the center of the 'star', on the aluminum
>>>>
>>>>
>>bracket....
>>the ground plane is on the fuselage floor<<
>>
>>That's what I thought from the picture, but doesn't that put the antenna
>>inside the fuselage?
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Could you put the ground plane on the roof, antenna facing down?<<
>>>>
>>>>
>>There is no "roof" in a Long... just the canopy and a small foam and
>>glass section over the rear passengers head...about a foot long (fore
>>and aft) and the width of the canopy. I might be able to mount something
>>like that in the cowling...but if the engine departs the plane, or even
>>just the cowl, then no signal! Also, with the antenna pointing down,
>>like under the plane, or down from the top, wouldn't that be a bad place
>>for it (unless I can rig the plane to always flip over in an emergency! )
>>
>>Someone else mentioned a dipole, or a even a folded dipole, which would
>>fit inside the spar behind the passenger's head, but I would think that
>>that would be too directional.
>>
>>Don't even have enough room on the strake without getting into the gas
>>tank. The floor/fuselage side looks like the only place that is wide
>>and long enough, but can the antenna be placed remotely from the ground
>>plane, say on the turtledeck, or does that defeat the purpose of the
>>ground plane? Does it have to be close to the antenna?
>>
>>Where have other Long or Vari Ez drivers put their ELT antennas and how
>>have they solved the ground plane problem?
>>
>>Harley
>>Long EZ N28EZ
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
In a message dated 9/17/04 8:48:43 AM Central Daylight Time,
harley(at)AgelessWings.com writes:
(First, I deleted some of the older messages...this was getting a bit
too long! )
Good Choice!
However, I have been waiting for one of the antenna experts to comment on
the use of a ground plane.
Please feel free to correct me thoroughly, but my understanding is that a
ground plane allows us aviators to use a shorter antenna. That is generally
considered good. A ground plane can consist of four to six radial strips of
wire, foil, or any other conductive material. It is best if they are
perpendicular to the antenna, but angles away from the antenna will work quite
well.
If the angle between the antenna and the ground plane is acute, they don't
work very well.
If you but the ground plane wires, or strips, on a curved belly or curved
top of a fuselage, they will work very well if the antenna is outside the
fuselage. If you put the antenna inside the airplane, that makes the angle from
the ground plane acute and it won't work very well.
Now, having said all that, most antennas work reasonably well even if all of
the "rules" are disregarded. One of the most popular speed kits for a
common certificated airplane uses a communication antenna mounted horizontally
in
the tail cone with a very much "too small" a ground plane. Shouldn't work at
all according to common knowledge. My friends who use that speed kit's
antenna mount tell me it works just fine!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dsvs(at)comcast.net |
Bob and others,
Does anyone have information on the type of stripper to use on RG142. I find many
strippers for rg59 and rg6 but none for RG142. . Bob I think you had a stripper
at your Long Beach class, if that is usable on RG142 could you let me know
where to get one? Thanks in advance. Don
Bob and others,
Does anyone have information on the type of stripper to use on RG142. I find many
strippers for rg59 and rg6 but none for RG142.. Bob I think you had a stripper
at your Long Beach class, if that is usable on RG142 could you let me know
where to get one? Thanks in advance. Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding in the Fuel Level System |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding in the Fuel Level System
>
> Hi,
>
> I have the SW fuel senders as well, shown here in this photo:
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20040726220023545_5_original.JPG
>
> Can you tell me the best way to ground it?
>
> I'm guessing one way is to drill a small hole, thread it, and
> screw on a faston or just screw on a ring terminal. Does
> this sound right? Of course, I don't want to go through
> the plate, since it's already prosealed on, and I'd like to
> avoid removing it again. I feel kind of silly that I didn't
> think of this before I sealed up my tanks.
>
> Thanks for any hints.
>
> Mickey
>
>
> >> How does the sensor find a ground path through all the sealant and
> >> gaskets used to prevent fuel leakage?
> >
> > The difficult thing is to maintain insulation in most
> > cases. There are many a failure mode for electronic
> > devices where some tiny conductor has compromised the
> > insulation between two parts that are not supposed to
> > be connected. If you have threaded fasteners or rivets
> > holding two parts together, it's a rare instance that
> > clamp up forces won't extrude any insulating materials
> > out of the joint.
> >
> > In a nutshell, the best thought out fuel gaging systems
> > will be completely isolated from and have no dependence on
> > chassis or airframe ground for operation.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
Thanks, Bob...
I kinda suspected that, which is why I was asking...I want to avoid
trials though, if I can get info directly from a present Long EZ user,
It would probably save me a bit of work.
I just asked over on the canard-aviator's list as well, so we'll see
what they have done.
Harley
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
>In a message dated 9/17/04 8:48:43 AM Central Daylight Time,
>harley(at)AgelessWings.com writes:
>
>
>(First, I deleted some of the older messages...this was getting a bit
>too long! )
>
>
>Good Choice!
>
>However, I have been waiting for one of the antenna experts to comment on
>the use of a ground plane.
>
>Please feel free to correct me thoroughly, but my understanding is that a
>ground plane allows us aviators to use a shorter antenna. That is generally
>considered good. A ground plane can consist of four to six radial strips of
>wire, foil, or any other conductive material. It is best if they are
>perpendicular to the antenna, but angles away from the antenna will work quite
well.
>If the angle between the antenna and the ground plane is acute, they don't
>work very well.
>
>If you but the ground plane wires, or strips, on a curved belly or curved
>top of a fuselage, they will work very well if the antenna is outside the
>fuselage. If you put the antenna inside the airplane, that makes the angle from
>the ground plane acute and it won't work very well.
>
>Now, having said all that, most antennas work reasonably well even if all of
>the "rules" are disregarded. One of the most popular speed kits for a
>common certificated airplane uses a communication antenna mounted horizontally
in
>the tail cone with a very much "too small" a ground plane. Shouldn't work at
>all according to common knowledge. My friends who use that speed kit's
>antenna mount tell me it works just fine!
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>AKA
>Bob Siegfried
>Ancient Aviator
>Stearman N3977A
>Brookeridge Airpark LL22
>Downers Grove, IL 60516
>630 985-8502
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Antennas in wood and plastic airplanes |
Besides here I have had numerous people asking me about good antennas
for their plastic airplanes. Most have been trying to fabricate a
ground plane for a standard aircraft antenna. I would like to point
out that this is not necessary if you change your thinking a bit and go
with something a little different.
For a vertically-polarized omnidirectional antenna for comm use I would
consider something called a coaxial dipole. It has the advantage of
being compact and very inexpensive to build. Basically it is a
1/2-wave dipole fed at the center with coax that passes through one of
the cylindrical radiators. You can build it entirely out of the coax
used to feed it!
1. Cut and remove the braid from a piece of coax so that the center
conductor with its insulation is about 24" long.
2. Remove the outer insulation from the braid leaving just the copper
braid itself.
3. Push this braid down over the remaining outer insulation so that
the coax is running up through the braid with the insulated center
conductor sticking out.
4. Solder the braid you have just installed over the outside to the
braid of the coax.
5. Trim both the outer braid and the center conductor to 22".
The total length of this antenna is 44". It can be easily built into
the vertical stabilizer.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Ameri-King ELT antenna mounting |
Everyone...
As usual I was a bit premature with my request for info on mounting an ELT
antenna. Continued searching since I posted that question has found
some good information regarding ELT antennas in our planes.
Specifically in the archives on the Cozy website.
http://www.cozybuilders.org/mail_list/topics96/antennae.txt
Searching the above linked page for ELT, I think I found all I
need...but just to be sure, anyone have any comments on the information
there that may have changed, been disproved or updated?
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
www.agelesswings.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Aircraft Wiring for So-Called Smart People |
In the late 60's and 70's I was directly envolved with long life spacecraft
electrical/electronics design. Teflon insulated wire was tried and we found
that cold flow caused shorted wire to wire in wire bundles after 6 months at
room temp (long before flight). It was hard to find and occurred at the
connector where there was a 90 deg boot. Tested spacecraft and put in
storage until needed for launch and found it failed test and the above was
the reason. Huge flap resulted and $$$$ in rework.
I was assigned to a different program a couple of years later and because of
security compartmenting they had the same problem and had not heard of the
other programs problems.
There is also Teflon insulated coax and again there has been cold flow
(shorts) even when the minimum bend radius was observed.
We used lots of kapton insulation and that worked well but in a spacecraft
as there is no long term vibration as in an aircraft where its very bad
news. There have been electrical fires on commercial aircraft with Kapton.
Both are in my opinion a NO NO for our use.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Aircraft Wiring for So-Called Smart People
>
> I agree with Bob N. And is the "Bare-Knuckles " thing a poke at the champ?
>
> Teflon---I was a design engineer in medical devices for decades and
remember
> the time when Teflon came and went. Teflon seemed to be a miracle at the
> time...but as time went on almost every single thing we made of "Miracle
> Teflon" evolved into some other material that was cheaper and performed
far
> better.
>
> We transitioned from an attitude of "...Let's use Teflon!" to "...use
Teflon
> only if you are absolutely certain it is critical to the design." (And it
> almost never is.) Even as pipe-thread sealant, Teflon needs some
> reconsideration.
>
> (As I vaguely recall...) One NTSB examiner commented on an aviation
accident
> blamed partly on Teflon failure in a DC10(?)--"Teflon has no place in
> aircraft design." This was an epiphany for me.
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones(at)charter.net
>
> Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
> (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dsvs(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: RG 142 Stripper |
Actually I need a stripper for RG 400. if you know where to get one. Thanks
-------------- Original message --------------
>
> Bob and others,
> Does anyone have information on the type of stripper to use on RG142. I find
> many strippers for rg59 and rg6 but none for RG142. . Bob I think you had a
> stripper at your Long Beach class, if that is usable on RG142 could you let me
> know where to get one? Thanks in advance. Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Actually I need a stripper for RG 400. if you know where to get one. Thanks
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs(at)comcast.net
Bob and others,
Does anyone have information on the type of stripper to use on RG142. I find
many strippers for rg59 and rg6 but none for RG142. . Bob I think you had a
stripper at your Long Beach class, if that is usable on RG142 could you let me
know where to get one? Thanks in advance. Don
ww.matronics.com/chat
/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PeterHunt1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Loadmeter connection question |
Bob/Others
I have the single battery, dual alternator (60A and 20A) arrangement
described in Bob's Figure Z-12. The diagram shows two shunts for two loadmeters,
but
the "+" and "-" wires to the loadmeters are not the same. On the 60 amp
alternator the "+" wire to the loadmeter is on the alternator "B" lead side of
the
shunt. On the 20 amp alternator the "-" wire to the loadmeter is on the "B"
lead side of the shunt. Shouldn't both loadmeters be wired to their respective
shunts in the same manner? Is figure Z-12 correct, or should the "+" and "-"
designations of one of the loadmeter wires be reversed?
Pete
Clearwater, FL
RV-6, struggling to finish wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PhilWhite9(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | COM antenna in a gear leg fairing? |
I understand a COM antenna should have vertical polarization, but RV's only
offer horizontal wingtips for internal mounted antennae.
Can one install an Archer antenna strip inside the gear leg fairing on the
front edge of the fiberglass, and acheive good radio performance? Or is it
too close to the grounded gear leg to function properly?
Phil White, RV-10 #40220
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loadmeter connection question |
>
>Bob/Others
>
>I have the single battery, dual alternator (60A and 20A) arrangement
>described in Bob's Figure Z-12. The diagram shows two shunts for two
>loadmeters, but
>the "+" and "-" wires to the loadmeters are not the same. On the 60 amp
>alternator the "+" wire to the loadmeter is on the alternator "B" lead
>side of the
>shunt. On the 20 amp alternator the "-" wire to the loadmeter is on the "B"
>lead side of the shunt. Shouldn't both loadmeters be wired to their
>respective
>shunts in the same manner? Is figure Z-12 correct, or should the "+" and "-"
>designations of one of the loadmeter wires be reversed?
Yes, the leads for the Aux Alternator are reversed in Z-12
and have been fixed for Rev 11.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG 142 Stripper |
I have several strippers for coax. They feature three blades mounted in handle
and set to a depth appropriate to exactly cutting outer jacket, outer jacket
plus shield, and outer jacket, shield and inner insulation. One such stripper
is "close" and I've learned how to finesse its usage for an okay result.
I did a little 'net searching and ordered this tool off Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5721067314
It's advertised as for RG-59 and RG-6. The attractive feature is that
the blades are adjustable via allen wrench. As soon as it gets here,
I'll see if it will set up for RG-400/142 and let you all know. The
price is certainly right ($15.00 including shipping). Watch this
space.
Bob . . .
>
>Actually I need a stripper for RG 400. if you know where to get one. Thanks
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>
> >
> > Bob and others,
> > Does anyone have information on the type of stripper to use on RG142. I
> find
> > many strippers for rg59 and rg6 but none for RG142. . Bob I think you
> had a
> > stripper at your Long Beach class, if that is usable on RG142 could you
> let me
> > know where to get one? Thanks in advance. Don
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Eye of newt, tail of frog and have you tried a cat's |
whisker?
>
>Good Choice!
>
>However, I have been waiting for one of the antenna experts to comment on
>the use of a ground plane.
>
>Please feel free to correct me thoroughly, but my understanding is that a
>ground plane allows us aviators to use a shorter antenna. That is generally
>considered good. A ground plane can consist of four to six radial strips of
>wire, foil, or any other conductive material. It is best if they are
>perpendicular to the antenna, but angles away from the antenna will work
>quite well.
>If the angle between the antenna and the ground plane is acute, they don't
>work very well.
Pretty accurate. View radials of a ground plane as lots of antennas in
parallel. The base impedance of a single 1/4 wave monopole antenna is about
35 ohms. We'd like for this antenna to work against a ground plane of
zero ohms . . . like a flat sheet of silver plated copper that is infinite
in all directions from the base of the antenna. A close approximation of
this can be obtained by attaching a series of antennas (all about 35 ohms
each) in parallel. In very rough, round numbers, 4 radial antennas
paralleled
at the base of the monopole radiator gives us a "ground" resistance on the
order of 8 ohms . . . 8 radials would be 4 ohms, etc. As it turns out,
4 radials works pretty good such that addition of more radials has
a diminishing return on investment for the effort. So, 4 to 8 radials
under your antenna is fine.
Now, these have to be treated as if they are antennas and therefore
must be full physical length unless you put some kind of loading inductance
in the middle which has the effect of making the element appear electrically
longer than it is physically. I've seen portable antennas comprised of 5
identical monopole elements, all center loaded, any one of which could be
stuck to the center connector to act as a radiator while the remaining four
were stuck onto radial connectors at the base. The end result was a vertical
monopole antenna with ground plane where physical size was smaller than its
electrical size.
The ground plane doesn't enable "shortening" of the antenna. For example,
the five element array cited above could just as easily have two or three
full sized elements substituted for the electrically "loaded" elements
and the differences would be transparent in terms of overall performance
of the whole array. So, one could use any combination of loaded or full
size radiators -OR- ground plane radials with no appreciable difference
in performance.
>If you but the ground plane wires, or strips, on a curved belly or curved
>top of a fuselage, they will work very well if the antenna is outside the
>fuselage. If you put the antenna inside the airplane, that makes the
>angle from
>the ground plane acute and it won't work very well.
The operative phrase is "work very well" which is totally
undefined. I've often suggested on this list that a wet string will
work to replace a high dollar, gold plated, talk-to-Mars antennas
in some applications. One example is a LOC/GS system that's never used
for en route VOR navigation. Off the end of the runway, you're looking
right down the gun barrel of gain transmitting antennas painting
your face with with lots of watts going into them. It doesn't take
much in the way of antenna efficiency to fly the ILS.
Let's talk about radial angle-of-the-dangle. Suppose you increase
the angle with the radials drooping downward more and more until
they are tightly bundled. You now have a dipole. Each radial is
so tightly coupled to the others that it no longer behaves as
an independent element and the sum total of radials appear as if
they're the second half of a dipole and it too has a resistance
of about 35 ohms. Now we have a dipole with feedpoint impedance of
about 70 ohms.
Okay, fan them upward and they begin to act independently as they
separate from each other. The impedance of the radial centers drops
toward the 4-8 ohm figure we discussed earlier. Total feedpoint
impedance comes down . . . in fact, at some propitious angle between
180 and 90 degrees, the center feedpoint impedance of the radials
is about 15 ohms added to 35 ohms of the radiator gives you a
50 ohm match to 50 ohm coax. A further benefit of drooped radials
is a lower angle for maximum radiation of the antenna bringing
it's max performance look-angle down toward the horizon. Raise
the radials too far and the look angle goes up toward useless
and the SWR climbs due to really whacked feedpoint impedance.
This explains the very common drooped radial configuration
one sees on VHF and UHF communications antennas around
airports. SWR is lower, radiation angle is lower.
It turns out that you get a slightly better performing
antenna on a composite airplane with radials "drooped"
down around fuselage curvature than you will for a
top mounted antenna on a Cessna with acres of top wing
skin for a ground plane.
>Now, having said all that, most antennas work reasonably well even if all of
>the "rules" are disregarded. One of the most popular speed kits for a
>common certificated airplane uses a communication antenna mounted
>horizontally in
>the tail cone with a very much "too small" a ground
>plane. Shouldn't work at
>all according to common knowledge. My friends who use that speed kit's
>antenna mount tell me it works just fine!
Yup. I can tell you that virtually EVERY anecdotal pronouncement about
antenna performance is next to meaningless without comparative data.
I've had two folks whack each other soundly taking opposite sides
of an opinion on identical antenna installations. Turns out that
one never talks to anyone outside an airport traffic area and the
other guy was trying to hit RCOs that were 50 miles away while
1000 feet over the terrain. One guy expected nothing and thought
it worked great, the other guy expected too much and thought it
was lousy.
Bottom line is, try anything and see how it works for the way
you need it to work. Anecdotal info from other builders is useful . . .
it often helps you weed out really bad designs but always
be suspicious of rock-throwing contests between folks in the
"tis so, taint so" mode of conversation. If you have to know
how it REALLY works, I can help you set up a test plan to go
explore both relative response (gain) and pattern for any
given installation.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
Qm9iLCANCiANClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIGluZm8gb24gdGhlIEZsdWtlIDg3ICYgWmVicmEgc3Rp
cCBjbGVhbmluZy4gIE15IEZsdWtlIHdvcmtzIHBlcmZlY3RseSBub3cgLSANCiANCkpvaG4NCiAN
CkRvIG5vdCBhcmNoaXZlDQo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Slobovia Outernational Flyin Invitation |
If you can make it to central Mississippi on Oct. 16, I'd like to invite
you to Slobovia Outernational's fall flyin just north of Jackson MS.
The fun starts at 10:00 AM & lunch will be served at noon. You are
welcome to overnight either Friday or Saturday. Just email or call so we
can plan for supper/breakfast, throw a bedroll in the plane/car & 'come
on down'.
No formal programs are scheduled, just lots of airplane rides, food &
'homebuilt conversation'.
Info on our airport can be found at
http://www.airnav.com/airport/MS71
FAA Identifier: MS71
Lat/Long: 32-29-42.508N / 090-17-34.325W
32-29.70847N / 090-17.57208W
32.4951411 / -90.2928681
UNICOM: 122.75
Disclaimer: Slobovia is a private airport. Pilots operate at their own
risk. Please be alert for both very slow & very high speed aircraft
around the airport; we are an 'equal opportunity airport'.
If you need driving directions or more info, feel free to email me at
ceengland(at)bellsouth.net
or call at 601-879-9596.
Ya'll come!
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net> |
| Subject: | yellow and blue wires? |
Ok, I know I've seen them on Bob's or B&C's site but I can't find them
anywhere. It's those diodes that go on the Battery and Starter
contactors. I saw them premade for sale, I thought. Where are they?
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | yellow and blue wires? |
Vans sells them they are in the web store,
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bobby
Hester
Subject: AeroElectric-List: yellow and blue wires?
Ok, I know I've seen them on Bob's or B&C's site but I can't find them
anywhere. It's those diodes that go on the Battery and Starter
contactors. I saw them premade for sale, I thought. Where are they?
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
---
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: yellow and blue wires? |
I bought mine at Radio Shack.
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker"
The sincerest satisfactions in life come in doing and not dodging duty; in
meeting and solving problems, in facing facts, in being a dependable person.
- Richard L. Evans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobby Hester" <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: yellow and blue wires?
>
> Ok, I know I've seen them on Bob's or B&C's site but I can't find them
> anywhere. It's those diodes that go on the Battery and Starter
> contactors. I saw them premade for sale, I thought. Where are they?
>
> --
> Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
> Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
> RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: yellow and blue wires? |
>
>
>Ok, I know I've seen them on Bob's or B&C's site but I can't find them
>anywhere. It's those diodes that go on the Battery and Starter
>contactors. I saw them premade for sale, I thought. Where are they?
Why premade? You can get 3A plastic diodes from Radio Shack
in blister pak 2/$1
Install terminals and wire as suggested in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/s701-1.jpg
and/or
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/s701-2.jpg
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | PIDG terminal sizes |
on juliet
Gentleman
Is there any reason not to use the smallest grip PIDG terminal that a
wire fits into comfortably even though it is outside the ratings? I've
noticed that my 16awg wire fits into red PIDG terminals with room to
spare and seems to crimp fine (if not better) even though the larger
blue PIDG terminals are spec'd for 16 awg wire. It seems like common
sense to use the smaller terminal but I'm new at this...
thanks
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PIDG terminal sizes on juliet |
Interesting you ask.
The AMP PIDG Terminals are listed as 22-18 for aircraft and 22-16 for
commercial.
As long as you use Tefzel insulation I have found no problems doing what you
suggest. Meets my pull test with My crimpers.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: PIDG terminal sizes on juliet
>
> Gentleman
>
> Is there any reason not to use the smallest grip PIDG terminal that a
> wire fits into comfortably even though it is outside the ratings? I've
> noticed that my 16awg wire fits into red PIDG terminals with room to
> spare and seems to crimp fine (if not better) even though the larger
> blue PIDG terminals are spec'd for 16 awg wire. It seems like common
> sense to use the smaller terminal but I'm new at this...
>
> thanks
> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stanley Blanton" <stanb(at)door.net> |
| Subject: | Wire colors by function |
Is there a standard that wires should (or could) be color coded to by
function?
The availability of different colors of tefzel wires now seems to make this
a little easier to do. I have looked at MIL-STD-681D but I don't see where
it would apply much in small aircraft.
Stan Blanton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wire colors by function |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Stan
I have not seen a standard for aircraft. However, other "modern electrical
systems" like cars and computers seem to have one. It is one heck of a lot
easier to use color than some complex labelling system in an
all-white-wire electrical installation.
We are wiring our Lancair ES with colored wire. The trim system is far
easier to do and track if you use orange, blue and green wires to mate up
with the wires on the Ray Allen servos, relay decks. etc. I wire 22 awg
22759/16 green wire to their & white and so on. I'm using black for all
ground wires because some of the sensors use the following wiring: Red =
power, black = ground and white = signal. All of our power wires for
solenoids and voltage regulators will be red. Yellow is also used for
power to mate up with a device that has yellow for its power input.
If you need colored Tefzel 22759 in 22 thru 12 AWG, contact Deb Sullivan
at WireMasters. They have the best prices by far. 22 AWG is 5 cents a
foot. They sell in 100 foot minimums, except for 2 and 4 AWG. There is a
$50 minimum order. Their number is: 800 635-5342
Cheers,
John
> Is there a standard that wires should (or could) be color coded to by
> function?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire colors by function |
>is there a standard that wires should (or could) be color coded to by
function?
Stan, What a good question!
Certainly there are more color codes than colors, and there are a zillion
special codes used for Blasting, Telephones, etc. but there are some things
that engineers consider standard practices
First the household wiring (There are codes for these)
Function North American International
Hot Black Brown
Neutral White Blue
Earth (Ground) Green Green with yellow stripe
DC Battery stuff (Codes...What's a code?)
Positive Red
Negative Black
Ground (Not necessarily negative!) green or green/yellow stripes
There really aren't any official function-color correspondences other than
these. Generally speaking use the red, black and green as above, and make
your own codes.
And always remember when defusing bombs, cut the green wire first....or is
it the blue wire?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jimk36(at)comcast.net> |
I just found that the RG battery in my Beech was discharged down to 5 volts since
putting it the hangar 3 weeks ago. [ Gee! Wonder how that could have happened?
Take pity and don't answer.]
The problem now is that it does not want to take a charge. What is the proper way
to re-charge a seriously depleted RG batt?
Thanks for any advice.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bobby Hester <bhester(at)hopkinsville.net> |
jimk36(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>I just found that the RG battery in my Beech was discharged down to 5 volts since
putting it the hangar 3 weeks ago. [ Gee! Wonder how that could have happened?
Take pity and don't answer.]
>
>The problem now is that it does not want to take a charge. What is the proper
way to re-charge a seriously depleted RG batt?
>
>Thanks for any advice.
>
>Jim
>
>
I not sure but my best guess would be to discharge your wallet :-)
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
On Sep 18, 2004, at 11:47 PM, Bobby Hester wrote:
>> The problem now is that it does not want to take a charge. What is
>> the proper way to re-charge a seriously depleted RG batt?
Find and use a constant-current charger to get the battery up to
standard potential.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com |
I would try the "Battery Tender". It has worked for me in the past. It
charges at a very low amperage and is fully automatic. Here is the website for
more info.
_http://www.batterytender.com/_ (http://www.batterytender.com/)
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: <jimk36(at)comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG Batt
>
> I just found that the RG battery in my Beech was discharged down to 5
volts since putting it the hangar 3 weeks ago. [ Gee! Wonder how that could
have happened? Take pity and don't answer.]
>
> The problem now is that it does not want to take a charge. What is the
proper way to re-charge a seriously depleted RG batt?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
Jim,
Here is what I would do :
- Search the manufacturer website for the recommended charging mode. In my
case they say the preferred mode is constant voltage charging.
- Use a good bench supply (laboratory supply from a school or else) and have
a try at recharging.
- If unsuccessful, consider buying a new RG battery. After all they are
lead/acid batteries, and as such they don't like staying discharged for any
length of time.
Sorry for not being of more help,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
> On Sep 18, 2004, at 5:27 PM, wrote:
>
>>
>> I just found that the RG battery in my Beech was discharged down to 5
>> volts since putting it the hangar 3 weeks ago. [ Gee! Wonder how that
>> could have happened? Take pity and don't answer.]
>>
>> The problem now is that it does not want to take a charge. What is the
>> proper way to re-charge a seriously depleted RG batt?
>
> Constant current charge at about a 1A rate. That will force the
> battery to accept a charge if it can.
> You have to be careful to monitor the battery's voltage though. It
> will start out very high since the discharged cells are in a
> high-resistance state. As they start to take a charge the voltage
> will drop to 13-14 volt range. Once that happens you can switch to a
> constant-voltage charge at about 14.2 volts. The battery is charged
> when the charging current drops to 5% of the battery's amp-hour
> rating, i.e. a 30AH battery is charged when the charging current drops
> to 3A when charged at the proper charge voltage.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
On Sep 19, 2004, at 8:35 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>> You have to be careful to monitor the battery's voltage though. It
>> will start out very high since the discharged cells are in a
>> high-resistance state. As they start to take a charge the voltage
>> will drop to 13-14 volt range. Once that happens you can switch to a
>> constant-voltage charge at about 14.2 volts. The battery is charged
>> when the charging current drops to 5% of the battery's amp-hour
>> rating, i.e. a 30AH battery is charged when the charging current drops
>> to 3A when charged at the proper charge voltage.
Let me try to get the math right this time. 5% of 30 is 1.5, not 3.
So the battery is charged when the charge current drops to 1.5A when
charging at the proper constant voltage.
BTW, the proper charge voltage for an AGM battery is about 14.4V at
70F-80F. Proper charge voltage for a Gel-Cell is about 13.8V at the
same temperature.
You can leave the battery on a constant current charge but you should
be careful to manage the time properly. Surprisingly lead-acid
batteries are quite efficient in terms of storing electrons. They have
a coulombic efficiency on the order of 90%-95%. That means if you pull
X number of coulombs out of the battery (one amp is one coulomb per
second) you only need to put X/95% coulombs back. Therefore if the
battery is completely dead and it has a capacity of 30AH, you need to
put 30/95% or 31.5 AH back. If you charge at a 1A rate it will take
31.5 hours to fully charge the dead battery.
So while it is true that most manufacturers recommend constant voltage
charging for their batteries, constant current charging is a better
remedy for a dead battery. Just be careful not to let the battery
overcharge, especially a sealed battery. That is my reason for
recommending the low charge rate of 1A.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed OConnor <Edwardoconnor(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire colors by function |
I read and article on web site about wiring
up an aircraft. You can download this article. If you are just
starting to wire up an aircraft, I would recommend it highly. He
recommends Teflon wire vice the tfizil we are all using as it is easier
to work with and has better specs. As for color coding, he highly
recommends it as well as making twisted pair wires yourself with a
drill and a common ground site.. There is a convention on the wiring
color. The higher the voltage, the brighter the color I think. Its in
the article. Its a beta version of the final article but informative I
think.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Matronics subscribe problems |
>Saturday, September 18, 2004
>
>John Esch
>
>,
>Email: jfesch(at)earthlink.net
>Comments/Questions: Bob
>I am having troubles trying to subscribe to the Aeroelectric Digest. I
>believe it might be in my security settings.
>Could I be added to the above named digest?
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>John Esch
>jfesch(at)earthlink.net
When you filled in your e-mail address, and subscribed to
any of the list server forums, did you get a confirmation
e-mail? Nobody can do the subscribe/un-subscribe for you.
It has to be done from your computer's i.p. address
If your e-mail service has any kind of filter on it,
it may be erroneously filtering mail originating
from matronics.com
There are a number of well-intentioned folks offering
varieties of filters and 'net-accessible "black-lists" to
assist in spam reduction. It's entirely possible that
legitimate mass mailers like matronics could be added
to a black-list relied on by your spam filter.
I only use a spam filter called "Mailwasher". While
it's not as convenient as those supplied by Internet
services providers, at least it runs in my computer
and allows me to set up my own black-list. Further,
it doesn't automatically drop any e-mails in the trash.
I see a line-item listing for every incoming mail item.
Most of what I get is marked for deletion when the
return address matches either my personally maintained
black-list or one of several 'net-based lists. If a
message originating from matronics shows up as black-listed,
I can manually accept it and let Matt Dralle know that
his services have been erroneously added to somebody's
black-list on the 'net.
If normal subscribing techniques are not working for
you, and after you've considered all of the options for
errors by spam filters, contact Matt Dralle directly at Matronics
and see what he recommends.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jimk36(at)comcast.net> |
Thanks for all the responses to my charging question.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire colors by function |
>
>I read and article on web site about wiring
>up an aircraft. You can download this article. If you are just
>starting to wire up an aircraft, I would recommend it highly. He
>recommends Teflon wire vice the tfizil we are all using as it is easier
>to work with and has better specs. As for color coding, he highly
>recommends it as well as making twisted pair wires yourself with a
>drill and a common ground site.. There is a convention on the wiring
>color. The higher the voltage, the brighter the color I think. Its in
>the article. Its a beta version of the final article but informative I
>think.
I've been getting a bunch of private e-mails about this article
over and above the little bit of traffic here on the list. I've
read the article in detail . . . and in fact downloaded the
original Word version. I spent about 6 hours Friday doing
a paragraph-by-paragraph review and I'm about half done. I'll
be publishing the review in its entirety late today or perhaps
tomorrow. It's loaded with gross errors and utterly devoid of
simple-idea foundation for recommendations. I simply
couldn't allow this effort bubble up to the surface in the
great sea of information without being challenged. In a nutshell
the article is "all foam and no beer".
You heard it first here on the AeroElectric List. Home for
motivated students, good teachers and fabricators of the finest
aircraft to have ever flown.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Matronics subscribe problems |
Hi John,
Many Earthlink customers have set up spam filters,
and you need to manually add the E-mail address
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
to your "good guy" list. Not sure what it is
called at Earthlink.
Mickey
At 17:11 19-09-04, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>
>
>>Saturday, September 18, 2004
>>
>>John Esch
>>
>>,
>>Email: jfesch(at)earthlink.net
>>Comments/Questions: Bob
>>I am having troubles trying to subscribe to the Aeroelectric Digest. I
>>believe it might be in my security settings.
>>Could I be added to the above named digest?
>>
>>Thanks in advance
>>
>>John Esch
>>jfesch(at)earthlink.net
>
>
> When you filled in your e-mail address, and subscribed to
> any of the list server forums, did you get a confirmation
> e-mail? Nobody can do the subscribe/un-subscribe for you.
> It has to be done from your computer's i.p. address
>
> If your e-mail service has any kind of filter on it,
> it may be erroneously filtering mail originating
> from matronics.com
>
> There are a number of well-intentioned folks offering
> varieties of filters and 'net-accessible "black-lists" to
> assist in spam reduction. It's entirely possible that
> legitimate mass mailers like matronics could be added
> to a black-list relied on by your spam filter.
>
> I only use a spam filter called "Mailwasher". While
> it's not as convenient as those supplied by Internet
> services providers, at least it runs in my computer
> and allows me to set up my own black-list. Further,
> it doesn't automatically drop any e-mails in the trash.
> I see a line-item listing for every incoming mail item.
> Most of what I get is marked for deletion when the
> return address matches either my personally maintained
> black-list or one of several 'net-based lists. If a
> message originating from matronics shows up as black-listed,
> I can manually accept it and let Matt Dralle know that
> his services have been erroneously added to somebody's
> black-list on the 'net.
>
> If normal subscribing techniques are not working for
> you, and after you've considered all of the options for
> errors by spam filters, contact Matt Dralle directly at Matronics
> and see what he recommends.
>
> Bob . . .
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gert <gert(at)execpc.com> |
What about the batteryminder which claims to be able to desulfate
batteries as well, such as :http://www.batteryweb.com/batteryminder.cfm
I saw ACS now selling these desulfating critters........
Gert
ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I would try the "Battery Tender". It has worked for me in the past. It
> charges at a very low amperage and is fully automatic. Here is the website for
> more info.
>
> _http://www.batterytender.com/_ (http://www.batterytender.com/)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ALWAYSPDG(at)aol.com |
I don't have any experience with the battery minder but, after reading the
information on it, it sounds like it would work too. I have used the Battery
Tender over many years and it works great. I have used it on Jet Skis,
automotive, motorcycle, and of course airplanes.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Evenson" <revenson(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Need BNC installation instructions |
I've purchased a couple of BNC connectors from B&C for RG400 (crimp style or maybe
crimp and solder style), but can't find installation instructions. I searched
the archives and found these, but they are no longer available.
http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install1.jpg
http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install2.jpg
Bob . . .
Anybody find any instructions on preparing the cable ends and crimping the connectors?
Roger E.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Need BNC installation instructions |
Just change the "216.55.140.222" to "www.aeroelectric.com" and you will
find them.
Since Bob moved the website a while back, the old number URL is no
longer correct. Substitute "www.aeroelectric.com" for all your old
addresses and they will almost always work.
Dick Tasker
Roger Evenson wrote:
>
>I've purchased a couple of BNC connectors from B&C for RG400 (crimp style or maybe
crimp and solder style), but can't find installation instructions. I searched
the archives and found these, but they are no longer available.
>
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install1.jpg
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install2.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Anybody find any instructions on preparing the cable ends and crimping the connectors?
>
>Roger E.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need BNC installation instructions |
Hello Roger,
you get caught by a link when Bob's server was done and he had to put up an
interim server, replace 216.55.140.22 with www.aeroelectric.com and you will
see it.
Also to recommend:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf most probably the one you
need.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/coaxconn/coaxconn.html
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Evenson" <revenson(at)comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need BNC installation instructions
>
> I've purchased a couple of BNC connectors from B&C for RG400 (crimp style
or maybe crimp and solder style), but can't find installation instructions.
I searched the archives and found these, but they are no longer available.
>
> http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install1.jpg
> http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install2.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Anybody find any instructions on preparing the cable ends and crimping the
connectors?
>
> Roger E.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>I just found that the RG battery in my Beech was discharged down to 5
>volts since putting it the hangar 3 weeks ago. [ Gee! Wonder how that
>could have happened? Take pity and don't answer.]
>
>The problem now is that it does not want to take a charge. What is the
>proper way to re-charge a seriously depleted RG batt?
>
>Thanks for any advice.
Batteries that are completely discharged (below 10/20 volts)
and stored in this condition for any length of time may not
be recoverable. If it does not accept a charge with the ordinary
voltage regulated charger, you MIGHT be able to force-feed it
with a higher voltage from a power supply. My friends at Concord
have related stories of successful recoveries (in fact, there's
a requirement for demonstrating recovery of certain military
program batteries after being stored with a 5 ohm shorting
resistor for 30 days).
The recovery technique is to 'stuff' a charge back into it
using 16-20 volts or as required to get C/10 charge current
to flow (24 a.h. battery needs to see at least 2.5 amps).
Hold this as a constant current charge for 12 hours.
Discharge the battery at C/1 rate (24 amps for a 24 a.h.
battery) until it falls to 10 volts. Recharge at C/10
but voltage limit this time to 14.2 volts. Discharge
at C/1 rate and measure capacity. If less than 80% of
nameplate value, repeat the recharge/discharge cycle
several times. If the capacity does not increase each
cycle (or if you can't get to 80% of nameplace capacity, the
battery is shot.
There are a number of batteries offered to the military
which survived this test when relatively new. The older
the battery is (and the longer it sits in a discharged
state) the less likely it is that you wlll get it back.
If you have power in your hangar, I'll suggest you
put a "Battery Tender" on while the airplane is stored.
Also check to make sure you don't have always-on battery
bus loads that are causing the battery to discharge while
the airplane is stored. A substantial cause of battery
replacement on biz jets is the baggage compartment or
commode drain service lights that are left on.
See
http://batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=4
I have a half dozen RG instrumentation batteries in my
shop that are floated on Battery Tenders. They're always
100% and ready to go even if I've not touched them in months.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed |
I've spent as much time on this "booklet" as I can. I've
already spotted a bunch of spelling and syntax errors to
fix but I think the meat of the review is essentially
complete. I'm not going to link the review to my website's
Front and What's New pages until I've had time to fix all
the problems I can find. In the mean time, AeroElectric List
members are welcome to check out this work in progress at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Aircraft_Wiring_For_Smart_People_Reviewed.pdf
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Need BNC installation instructions |
>
>
>I've purchased a couple of BNC connectors from B&C for RG400 (crimp style
>or maybe crimp and solder style), but can't find installation
>instructions. I searched the archives and found these, but they are no
>longer available.
>
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install1.jpg
>http://216.55.140.222/articles/BNC_Install/BNC_Install2.jpg
>
> Bob . . .
Several years ago, I was out of room and connectivity for
storing all website's downloadables on one server. I had a library
server located at 216.55.140.222 where overflow was billeted.
All those documents were moved back to the core server for
aeroelectric.com when we got the new server up and running
a couple of years ago out in SanDiego. That server too small
once more so we've bought a new killer byte thrasher with
a bucket full of hard drives and dual processors. We should
have that on line in the next 30 days or so.
Just be aware that any links calling out the 216.55.140.222 address
were temporary and are now accessed by replacing the
string of IP address numbers with aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Malcolm Thomson" <mdthomson(at)attglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed |
A question I have from the 24V vs. 12V discussion in the booklet is the
assumption is made that the aircraft systems operate at 24V
continuously. If, in a 24V system, smaller wire is used to reduce wire
size, what happens when the alternator(s) fails and the battery voltage
starts to drop? Most modern avionic systems operate from 10-32V, so
therefore won't the radio which used, say 3A at 28V, need 6A at 12V?
Does this mean it will need the same wire size as if it had been wired
for a 12V system? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
Thanks
----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed
-->
I've spent as much time on this "booklet" as I can. I've already spotted
a bunch of spelling and syntax errors to fix but I think the meat of the
review is essentially complete. I'm not going to link the review to my
website's Front and What's New pages until I've had time to fix all the
problems I can find. In the mean time, AeroElectric List members are
welcome to check out this work in progress at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Aircraft_Wiring_For_Smart_People_Re
viewed.pdf
Bob . . .
---
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed |
Bob there are rules and regs regarding the human proximity to RF sources IE
antennas. Every Ham radio operator is required to evaluate his antenna
installation to see if it meets these rules. In Europe I understand the
rules (permissible levels) are much stricter.
I do not have the specific FAA document # nor a copy handy but I suspect
that a couple hundred (1000mhz) watts, even as pulses, a couple feet from
you is a no no. This without a proper ground plane that would prevent back
side radiation.
Worth looking into in any event for those inclined to worry. I suspect less
exposure if the antenna is directly under you presuming the above ground
plane VS a small ground plane (only) and some distance from you.
Interesting set of comments worth reading by everyone. You found some
"errors" that I had missed.
Good Job.
Paul
K6QMI
Copyright @ 2004 by Greg Richter greg(at)bluemountainavionics.com
Page 25 of 59
Safety Note About Transponder Antennas
A transponder puts out a couple hundred Watt microwave pulse in a frequency
band that is none too healthy to be around.
On a metal airplane this is no big deal, since the whole thing is one big,
shielded
can. On a composite bird, you can be sitting unpleasantly close to a
powerful
microwave transmitter, which is Not Good. Mount the antenna as far away as
practical, or failing that, use SuperShield to shoot a ground plane between
you
and the antenna. One of my friend's airplanes actually has the antenna right
under the pilot's seat!
This is hangar-legend with no foundation in physics
or physiology. Somebody launched this back in Burt's
heyday with the Ez crowd and it's been jumping up
from time to time ever since.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed
>
>
> I've spent as much time on this "booklet" as I can.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed |
Bob,
I would like to thank you for doing a full review of the document! Your
effort and knowledge is very much appreciated. I would also like to thank
Greg for taking the time to write the initial article; after all if no one
brings up the subject it is hard to learn.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed
I've spent as much time on this "booklet" as I can. I've
already spotted a bunch of spelling and syntax errors to
fix but I think the meat of the review is essentially
complete. I'm not going to link the review to my website's
Front and What's New pages until I've had time to fix all
the problems I can find. In the mean time, AeroElectric List
members are welcome to check out this work in progress at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Aircraft_Wiring_For_Smart_People_Review
ed.pdf
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Renamed- RF health concerns |
on juliet
What about VHF antennas?
I understand that an occasional 7 watts of VHF is probably relatively
benign compared to repetitive hundred watt microwave pulses but is there
any health concern with putting a VHF comm antenna above my head on an
aluminum fuselage surrounded by 4 skylights? There is enough aluminum to
act as 4 wide radial ground plane elements so I'm guessing that will
that keep most of the RF away from my head but I've never really
understood this black magic RF stuff...
Unless someone knows more than me I guess I'll mount the antenna about 6
or so feet farther aft but hate to run the coax that far if there is no
reason for it and it would still have a line of sight through the
skylights to my noggin anyway. I could also mount if at the wing root of
my high wing aircraft but that is still line of sight to my noggin.
Ken
Paul Messinger wrote:
>
>Bob there are rules and regs regarding the human proximity to RF sources IE
>antennas. Every Ham radio operator is required to evaluate his antenna
>installation to see if it meets these rules. In Europe I understand the
>rules (permissible levels) are much stricter.
>
>I do not have the specific FAA document # nor a copy handy but I suspect
>that a couple hundred (1000mhz) watts, even as pulses, a couple feet from
>you is a no no. This without a proper ground plane that would prevent back
>side radiation.
>
>Worth looking into in any event for those inclined to worry. I suspect less
>exposure if the antenna is directly under you presuming the above ground
>plane VS a small ground plane (only) and some distance from you.
>
>Interesting set of comments worth reading by everyone. You found some
>"errors" that I had missed.
>
>Good Job.
>
>Paul
>K6QMI
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Reviewed |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
Reviewed
Reviewed
>
>Bob there are rules and regs regarding the human proximity to RF sources IE
>antennas. Every Ham radio operator is required to evaluate his antenna
>installation to see if it meets these rules. In Europe I understand the
>rules (permissible levels) are much stricter.
>
>I do not have the specific FAA document # nor a copy handy but I suspect
>that a couple hundred (1000mhz) watts, even as pulses, a couple feet from
>you is a no no. This without a proper ground plane that would prevent back
>side radiation.
>
>Worth looking into in any event for those inclined to worry. I suspect less
>exposure if the antenna is directly under you presuming the above ground
>plane VS a small ground plane (only) and some distance from you.
>
>Interesting set of comments worth reading by everyone. You found some
>"errors" that I had missed.
>
>Good Job.
>
>Paul
>K6QMI
Thank you. Yeah, there's been "rules" about proximity to RF emitters
for decades. I worked the flight line at Boeing in my first real job
out of high school. The B52's nose mounted mapping radar was a 50KW
peak output device that would blow the receiver mixers out of
airplanes facing them across the ramp. The average power output was
something on the order of 50W total . . . if held your hand
out in the beam you could just detect a warming of your hand.
At his same time, another piece of equipment was pretty common to
doctor's offices called a diathermy machine. Push-pull, 100THs running
anywhere between 100 and 600 watts output at 27 mHz. The doc could
couple this to your bod with a variety of capacitive and inductive
coupling pads and select a power transfer anywhere between very rare
to medium-well. These were in use for deep heat therapy for decades.
I got a series of treatments on the doc's "cooker" while wrestling
with a series of kidney infections as a kid.
Did a batch of mini-sausages in the microwave this morning . . Dee
likes 'em crispy. Takes about 7 minutes with 600 watts continuous
being pumped into the oven cavity.
We know that anything moist will warm up in the presence of RF
energy exposure. There are variable effects depending on mass of
the area exposed (the tiny cat whisker's in receiver mixer crystals
couldn't withstand 1 microsecond pulses at 1000 pulses per second,
but the bare hand could just feel the heat. Of course, frequency has
an influence too.
I'm not trying to minimize risks around RF . . . I've had coaxes
open up and turn my shack into a real attention getting environment.
I have a 50 year old scar on my right index finger from an RF burn off the
metal edge around the linoleum topped desk that supported my
equipment . . . and that was only a 180 watt transmitter!
But let's consider the average transponder. 100-200 watt
peaks in a stream of perhaps 50-100, 1 microsecond pulses every
time the reply light comes on. So, 200W x 100 pulse/reply
x 0.000001 sec/pulse yields 20 milliwatt-seconds per reply. The most
vulnerable organs in the body are the eyes and they're a long
way from the antenna and shadowed by your bod. Anecdotal stories
of RF burns, blowing receivers out from across the ramp and
crisping up my sausages can certainly give rise to ugly images
of risk. But after you study the numbers, I'm quite comfortable
making the assertion that a transponder antenna on a ground
plane right under the pilot's seat of a LongEz represents
no hazard to the family jewels.
Now, if my supervisor had seen me stick my hand out there
in front of the antenna, the rules would probably have required
him to terminate me on the spot. Rules have all appearances
of good intention but in fact, they tend to relieve rule-writers
from having to be teachers and rule-followers from having to
understand real risks. I prefer to understand.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Reviewed |
| Subject: | Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
Reviewed
Reviewed
>
>
>A question I have from the 24V vs. 12V discussion in the booklet is the
>assumption is made that the aircraft systems operate at 24V
>continuously. If, in a 24V system, smaller wire is used to reduce wire
>size, what happens when the alternator(s) fails and the battery voltage
>starts to drop? Most modern avionic systems operate from 10-32V, so
>therefore won't the radio which used, say 3A at 28V, need 6A at 12V?
>Does this mean it will need the same wire size as if it had been wired
>for a 12V system? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
Great question. Yes, radios and other accessories with switchmode
power supplies are CONSTANT POWER INPUT loads. So, if the is set
up in a 28 volt system and needs 2 amps to operate, it will draw
2.24 amps when the alternator quits and bus falls to 25v. At end
of battery life (22v) the radio will draw 2.5 amps. The battery
will pass 10 volts on its way toward zero whereupon the radio
will be demanding 5.6 amps.
This raises an excellent question as to operating duration under
battery only ops from a 24 volt battery. It seems that the 10-32v
equipment is going to be useful for an extended period of time
compared to the "old style" accessory guaranteed down to only 22v
low normal and 18v emergency.
Consider an e-bus load and battery capacity sized for say, 3 hours
battery only operation assuming constant current or constant
resistance operation down to 22 volts. The 25 to 22 volts discharge
segment represents 3 x 60 or 180 minutes of operation and uses
more than 95% of the battery's total capacity. The MOST time
we can expect a 10v operating device with constant current or
constant resistance operation is 0.05 x 240 or another 12 minutes.
Now, if the e-bus powers 10-32v, constant power devices battery
depletion is hastened. 12 minutes of operation after the "old"
stuff dies is wishful thinking. Besides, if we haven't put the
airplane comfortably on the ground in the first 180 minutes,
I'll suggest that the last 12 minutes isn't going to make the
difference between a good day and a bad day in the cockpit.
Now, should this drive decisions to increase wire size? I don't
think so. If we've designed, maintained, and operated the system
comfortably within the bounds of what's considered normal operating
voltages, there's not enough variability in operating current do
drive any decisions to up-size wire or fuses. Assume 22v operating
currents in your original design decisions and you're covered.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: COM antenna in a gear leg fairing? |
I don't think the Archer antenna will fit a narrow chord structure like the leg
fairing, but I may be wrong. I have some recent experiance I was going to post
on the subject of these antennas, and your question gives a good segue...
I spent the weekend with an RV wingtip, a roll of copper foil tape, and my MFJ
antenna analyzer attempting to duplicate a flat, 2-D mversion of the 3-D tubing-framed
antenna that is presently in my wingtip, built using dimensions in the
'Connection for the Archer-style gamma-fed monopole. The current wingtip antenna
works fairly well but exhibits some shielding from the wing and has at one
time shed a piece from vibration-induced failure of a soldder joint. I wanted
to alter the design so that there was no risk of stuff falling off,and so
the radiating element would be as close to the belly of the wingtip enclosure
as possible, to reduce shading by the wing.
Duplicating the antenna looked to be a straightforward excercise, given my prior
experience and the availability of the MFJ amalyzer, without which one would
need the patience of Job to get things dialed in. Initially, however, I experienced
a huge amount of frustration trying to get resonance where I wanted it,
and even after trimming and adjusting all sorts of dimensions and variable matching
capacitance, I had an antenna with the right approximate shape, dimensions
off somewhat from the shop notes, and a 3:1 VSWR bandwidth of much less than
the aircraft comm band. Finally it dawned on me that the base of the antenna,
specified in 'Connection figure 13-12 as "convenient length," was dfesigned
to be attatched to the metal wing rib as a sort of ground-plane. I had started
with about 24 inches of copper foil along the inner edge of the wingtip as
a base, and when I lengthened this by another 6 inches, things began to "cook"
on the test bench in a gratifying way. I ended up with an antenna that shows
a VSWR of 1.8:1 at 118 MHz and 1.7:1 at 136 MHz. Resonance is near 125 MHz,
and unity SWR is easily achieved by tweaking the variable capacitor which I
substituted for the sandwich of aluminum and bakelite called out in the drawing.
These results are obtained OFF the airplane, and will await further confirmation
when test flights allow (I need a few coax fittings from B&C to finish lashing
it up to the feedline and do further testing...) I will be glad to post final
dimensional and electrical measurements for anyone interested in the application
once I get it wrung out. Meanwhile I'm still flying with the brass tubing
version in the wingtip, and I've even started eyeing the nosegear leg on the
RV, wondering if that sucker can be shunt-fed with a J-pole type of parallel
matching stub to achieve some nearly-vertical polarization. Concealed antennas
are fun, but, in a metal airplane, definitely involve a lot of work and offer
somewhat compromised performance. The quest continues...
-Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RF health concerns on juliet |
>
>What about VHF antennas?
>I understand that an occasional 7 watts of VHF is probably relatively
>benign compared to repetitive hundred watt microwave pulses but is there
>any health concern with putting a VHF comm antenna above my head on an
>aluminum fuselage surrounded by 4 skylights? There is enough aluminum to
>act as 4 wide radial ground plane elements so I'm guessing that will
>that keep most of the RF away from my head but I've never really
>understood this black magic RF stuff...
>
>Unless someone knows more than me I guess I'll mount the antenna about 6
>or so feet farther aft but hate to run the coax that far if there is no
>reason for it and it would still have a line of sight through the
>skylights to my noggin anyway. I could also mount if at the wing root of
>my high wing aircraft but that is still line of sight to my noggin.
Given that you transmit for seconds out of every flight hour
and the transmitter is ONLY 7 watts at 120 Mhz, I wouldn't
worry about it.
Folks in public safety (police, fire departments, etc) run 2-5 watt
walkie-talkies right against their face for a ton more exposure
than you're going to get from the comm transmitter in your
airplane. I don't know any firemen who have gone blind 'cause
they talked too much on their radios.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People Reviewed |
This is very interesting, but if the device is fed via a 5 amp fuse, assuming
proper design, would not that fuse be toast before the wire insulation,
making voltage at a given time a bit moot? Circuit protection is CONDUCTOR
protection, no?
Mark From The PossumWorks
In a message dated 09/19/2004 7:08:36 PM Central Standard Time,
b.nuckolls(at)cox.net writes:
Great question. Yes, radios and other accessories with switchmode
power supplies are CONSTANT POWER INPUT loads. So, if the is set
up in a 28 volt system and needs 2 amps to operate, it will draw
2.24 amps when the alternator quits and bus falls to 25v. At end
of battery life (22v) the radio will draw 2.5 amps. The battery
will pass 10 volts on its way toward zero whereupon the radio
will be demanding 5.6 amps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | My address is go doodoo |
The manager of my server has had a spam-finder program go wrong and as a
result has shut down temporarily to repair same. Please forgive any false
warning of my immediate demise. I expect to be back, receiving messages as
always.
Thank you, and apologies,
Ferg
Europa A064
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 09/19/04 |
I just read all the web pages of informative stuff about the "Battery
Tender" devices... very educational... IF you have a lead-acid battery!
What about the new Oddysey dry-cell batteries everyone is using/
retrofitting into their Van's aircraft? Forgive me if you've gone over that topic
a
zillion times on this forum.. I get the email version, and dont know the method
to research past topics.
In particular, I'm curious if the Oddysey dry-cells can be successfully
'floated' or charge maintained by the family of BatteryTender products? Or.. is
there really a need to do so, consdering one of their claims to fame is being
able to hold a charge for about 2 years, just sitting on the shelf.
Dan Eikleberry
RV6
Las Vegas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: COM antenna in a gear leg fairing? |
On Sep 19, 2004, at 9:21 PM, SportAV8R(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> eyeing the nosegear leg on the RV, wondering if that sucker can be
> shunt-fed with a J-pole type of parallel matching stub to achieve some
> nearly-vertical polarization.
Yes, it will work. Even a gamma match will work just fine.
And as for your wingtip antenna, put one in the other wingtip and then
use a power divider to feed both antennas in phase. The interference
pattern might make for an interesting radiation pattern but it might
work really well.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 26 Msgs - 09/19/04 |
On Sep 20, 2004, at 5:03 AM, DanJE(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I just read all the web pages of informative stuff about the "Battery
> Tender" devices... very educational... IF you have a lead-acid battery!
>
> What about the new Oddysey dry-cell batteries everyone is using/
> retrofitting into their Van's aircraft? Forgive me if you've gone
> over that topic a
> zillion times on this forum.. I get the email version, and dont know
> the method
> to research past topics.
They are just sealed lead-acid batteries. They are not dry-cells like
you would find in your flashlight. The "Battery Tender" should work
fine with them.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
---------
Bob wrote:
Rules have all appearances of good intention but in fact, they tend to
relieve rule-writers from having to be teachers and rule-followers from
having to understand real risks. I prefer to understand.
---------
Bob,
This is one of the most profound things I've read on the list in quite a
while. You are a veritable "font of knowledge."
One word of caution: sometimes it's good not only to understand the
physics, but also *why* the rule was written. Commercial airlines
operate with an accident rate several times lower than we General
Aviation enthusiasts. Rules that take the pilot out of the
decision-making process (if the weather is this bad you can't go,
minimum equiment lists, etc.) are one of the most effective tools the
commercial carriers use to keep the accident rate down. We would do
well to emulate them...
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
web.hometel.com/~legacyfgkit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
On Sep 20, 2004, at 8:53 AM, Mark Sletten wrote:
>
> Rules that take the pilot out of the
> decision-making process (if the weather is this bad you can't go,
> minimum equiment lists, etc.) are one of the most effective tools the
> commercial carriers use to keep the accident rate down. We would do
> well to emulate them...
It is always a good idea to premake your decisions so when the
situation hits, you don't have to spend time making a decision. In
flying gliders we learned the decision points for what to do if the tow
rope broke, i.e. land out, turn back to a downwind landing, fly an
abbreviated pattern, or fly the full pattern. I didn't have to make
that decision as I had already made that decision. I apply that to the
process I teach my students, i.e. that you can make the critical
decisions ahead of time so that, should a problem occur you aren't
having to fly the plane AND make the decisions at the same time.
Applying it to weather is probably the biggest challenge.
But Bob's point is excellent. If you know WHY you can better make
those decisions ahead of time. Sometimes "why" is the most difficult
thing to teach.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Lead acid batteries: Vairiations on a theme. |
>
>I just read all the web pages of informative stuff about the "Battery
>Tender" devices... very educational... IF you have a lead-acid battery!
The Oddysey is a lead-acid battery.
>What about the new Oddysey dry-cell batteries everyone is using/
>retrofitting into their Van's aircraft? Forgive me if you've gone
>over that topic a
>zillion times on this forum.. I get the email version, and dont know the
>method
>to research past topics.
>
>In particular, I'm curious if the Oddysey dry-cells can be successfully
>'floated' or charge maintained by the family of BatteryTender products?
>Or.. is
>there really a need to do so, consdering one of their claims to fame is
>being
>able to hold a charge for about 2 years, just sitting on the shelf.
See:
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/ody_b.asp?brandID=5
Oddysey is the latest offerings of Gates/Hawker/Enersys in
the long and relatively successful history of development
and marketing of sealed, valve regulated, lead-acid
(SVRLA) batteries. Except for small differences in manufacturing,
and electrolyte loading these are the same as recombinant gas
(RG), absorbed glass mat (AGM) and starved electrolyte variations
on a theme. While the term "dry" may appear in their marketing
literature, the battery is still loaded with liquid sulfuric acid
and water mixture . . . it's totally contained within the glass
mat separators held in place by capillary action. If you drive
a nail into one of these batteries it will dry out and fail but
no liquid will exit the compromised cell. Hence the appearance
of being "dry" when in fact, it's loaded with the same stuff
that sloshes around in your car's battery.
Note the other products listed on the Enersys webpage cited
above. Cyclon, Powersafe, DataSafe and Genesis are but a series
of variations on a theme of SVRLA batteries, each series
optimized for some task.
With respect to Battery Tenders . . . there are a number of
offerings with 2, 3 and 4-step charging algorithms with
each technique "optimized" for variations on the VRSLA
themes. If you have a high speed internet connection and
want to get this power point presentation, feel free to download
http://www.aeroelectric.com/ppt/Battery_Presentation_D.ppt
It's only going to be available there for a few more weeks
so if you're reading this in the archives and don't find the
presentation, write me directly and I'll get a copy to you.
This is a presentation I gave for folks at Raytheon during
a study (ongoing) of battery performance issues on our
products. Toward the end of the presentation I discuss
two of Battery Tender's charging algorithms but without
offering any judgement. It is axiomatic that any product
will be offered with a certain amount of marketing hype . . .
probably true but the BIG question is, are the differences
relevant and do they deliver good return on investment?
As soon as I have enough information to make a considered
judgement on the differences, sufice it to say that ANY of
the Battery Tender products will very nicely watch over
and maintain any variations on the VRSLA battery themes.
The power point presentation will be a bit weak when read
as a stand-alone document. I really hate to attend a program
where the presenter simply reads the slides. So, what I've
offered you are the illustrations and notes for my presentation
which are not very self explanatory. I'm looking into adding
a voice-over narration to the presentation so that it can
stand alone as a teaching document.
Bob . . .
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wiring for Smart People |
September 07, 2004 - September 20, 2004
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-dm