AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-dr
November 05, 2004 - November 15, 2004
On Nov 5, 2004, at 1:51 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Dead on accurate analysis sir.
Thank you Bob.
> We've often
> heard the adage that a pilot's license is a "license
> to learn" but all too often, learning seems to slow
> down or even cease.
>
> The FAA is fond of developing new requirements for new
> production but allowing older airplanes to "grandfather"
> along in their originally certified condition. For the
> most part, I agree with this philosophy but with one
> exception. If I were made "Emperor for a day" of the FAA,
> I'd write a requirement for low voltage warning, periodic
> cap tests of batteries -OR- yearly replacement, and
> and dual feed e-bus installation for all aircraft that
> are used for night-cross-country whether VFR or IFR.
>
> It's probably the simplest change we could make to
> any certified ship and would make the vast majority
> of electrical system dark-stormy-night stories go away.
I did in my Comanche. My "fix" is 20 years old now and my e-buss is
called the "Avionics buss". It was easy when we did the new panel back
in 1984.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Driving electronic rpm meter from both magnetos |
On Nov 5, 2004, at 2:36 PM, Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
>
> I am not sure if it has two inputs. I was assuming it only had one
> based on
> the post by Mark (Fiveonepw) who said his EIS4000 is only on the right
> mag.
> I could have misunderstood his post.
And I certainly *don't* know. Do *not* take my word as gospel on this.
> I will check with GRT.
That is the correct answer.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Another bad story |
>And if you are on this list, why would you have an airplane that could
>experience a total electrical system failure?
Because my RV8 is not yet finished, and my flying club won't
let me work on our Pipers.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hangar Radios |
In a message dated 11/5/2004 1:42:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brianl(at)lloyd.com writes:
I listen to the BBC on my SSB HF receiver to get the news. They beat
the snot out of the US news services for international balance.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I agree with you Brian on the BBC. Trouble is, it takes me about 30 minutes
of listening to tune my mind in and begin to understand the King's English!
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Short antenna cable for back of radio |
OK, no one has any idea where I can buy a little "patch cable"
like the one listed below? I guess I could make one, but
when I was running a big IP network, I had a rule that none
of my guys were allowed to make cables. Too unreliable.
Not sure I want to break this rule with my radio antenna.
Thanks,
Mickey
>I'm looking for a short antenna cable like the one shown
>on this web page.
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20041104202747822
>
>Does anyone know where I can purchase this?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hangar Radios |
You can get a cheap, digitally tuned portable radio and extended the DC
power and headphone audio leads from outside to inside via a hunk of
4-wire telephone cable. Wrapped the radio up in two layers of zip-lock
plastic bag along with a packet of silica-gel. Install it under a plastic
bucket to shield from direct effects if wind and sunlight.
At the other end, attached a wall-wart power supply and a set
of amplified computer speakers. This keeps all your wiring
close to the building and relatively immune from lighting
strike issues. Signal strength to the radio is very good and
should offer excellent quality audio. Leave it turned on 24/7
and just turn down the volume when you're not listening to it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Steitle <msteitle(at)mail.utexas.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Short antenna cable for back of radio |
Mickey,
Since nobody else replied, here's my suggestion. Check with Garmin, or
ICOM. My GTX-327 transponder uses a similar plug that comes in either
straight, or 90 degree. It is listed in the parts list at the back. I
could get you a p/n, but I would think that any avionics shop should be
able to get one for you.
Mark S.
>
>
>OK, no one has any idea where I can buy a little "patch cable"
>like the one listed below? I guess I could make one, but
>when I was running a big IP network, I had a rule that none
>of my guys were allowed to make cables. Too unreliable.
>Not sure I want to break this rule with my radio antenna.
>
>Thanks,
>Mickey
>
>
> >I'm looking for a short antenna cable like the one shown
> >on this web page.
> >
> > http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20041104202747822
> >
> >Does anyone know where I can purchase this?
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Driving electronic rpm meter from both magnetos |
In a message dated 11/5/04 9:34:49 AM Central Standard Time, brianl(at)lloyd.com
writes:
> If any of these things change it
> is grounds to wonder what has changed in the engine even if everything
> is still within "normal" specs.
>>>>
Seems I'll be paying closer attention in the future........
Thanks! Mark
do not achive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Driving electronic rpm meter from both magnetos |
In a message dated 11/5/04 12:38:04 PM Central Standard Time, sa(at)mwutah.com
writes:
> I am not sure if it has two inputs. I was assuming it only had one based
> on
> the post by Mark (Fiveonepw) who said his EIS4000 is only on the right mag.
> I could have misunderstood his post.
>>>
My 2002 vintage EIS4000 has only one, which would require a switch and
resistor for both p-leads- my unit came with the required resistor for one mag...
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Walter Tondu <walter(at)tondu.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Short antenna cable for back of radio |
On 11/05 9:47, Mickey Coggins wrote:
> OK, no one has any idea where I can buy a little "patch cable"
> like the one listed below? I guess I could make one, but
> when I was running a big IP network, I had a rule that none
> of my guys were allowed to make cables. Too unreliable.
> Not sure I want to break this rule with my radio antenna.
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
Making antennas is the absolute easiest thing I've ever done.
No satisfaction like doing the work yourself.
--
Walter Tondu
http://www.rv7-a.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMC <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: 35amp PM alternator |
-----Original Message-----
This is a fairly old thread (but I remember your comments) . . . but I'm
planning my breaker / switches and "rough wiring" for my RV-8.
Without Avionics I'm figuring the following night IFR load on approach?
Heated Pitot 10A
Landing Lights 8A
Nav Lights 8A
Strobes 8A
Panel / Inst Lts 2A
Gyros 2A
Total 38A
I may be a little high but should be close?? What am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
Bob Christensen
Hi Bob
Maybe we do things different here in the Great White North but the heated
pitot and landing lights are considered as "intermittent" loads (at least on
my load analyses) which may exceed the normal continuous rating.
The pitot heat would only need to be on if you anticipated icing and the
landing light for a very short time before touchdown!
George in Langley B.C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fox5flyer" <morid(at)northland.lib.mi.us> |
| Subject: | Narco AT150 xponder light |
I'm having a new indication on my transponder (Narco AT150) and wondering if
anyone has experienced this before and what (if anything) I can do about it.
In the past the interrogator light has always blinked normally when the
radar sweep passes it and the transponder has always worked fine. Recently
I've noticed the the light blinks much more and flickers as if it's being
hit by multiple radar sweeps. This has now gotten worse to the point that
sometimes while enroute the light just stays on steady much of the time with
occasional bouts of acting normally.
I recently talked to ATC while the light was on steady and they said my data
block was normal and mode C (ACK A-30) was working ok. In the area of
northern Michigan that I generally fly radar sites are few and far between
so I'm certain it's not from receiving multiple sweeps. When landing at my
very rural grass strip the light is often still full on while taxiing back.
I did notice last time when I shut off the engine while master was still on
that the light went out even though transponder was still receiving power.
So far it's been an intermittent problem, but it appears to have gradually
gotten worse.
Anybody experienced this? Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Darrel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Another bad story |
"> AM, were dating our self here!"
"were" should be "we're" - apostrophe to represent missing "a". -2
"our self" should be "ourselves" - one word, and plural for "we". -6
2/10
You can do better than this.
Miss Thompson, Gr4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JPickr8358(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Ignition Noise Problem |
Electric Listers,
I am using a Jeff Rose EI in place of the right mag on my 0-360 powered RV8.
There is a low level ignition noise that comes trough Com 1 (Garmin 430/ belly
ant) and Com 2 (Becker/ wing tip Archer ant) when receiving lower power
transmissions. It doesn't break the squelch. It varies with RPM and disappears
with the EI off. I have talked to Jeff about this and he maintains that 90% of
the time it's the ign leads arching with the less likely possibility being
noise from the power lead. I have all of the ign leads isolated from each other
by
1/2 "with non conducting material. Using aircraft plugs with gap of .035 as
recommended. There is no sign of arching along the cables or inside of the
plug barrels. The coil unit is mounted on the firewall with gnd lead to the
firewall. The power lead is shielded and the gnd pigtail is grounded to the
firewall with the shorter leads from the switch on the instrument panel to the
battery buss (cabin side of firewall) also shielded and grounded.
Would a power lead noise filter be worth a try in a situation like this? Any
other ideas would be appreciated as the noise is irritating. (Definitely do
not want to go back to another mag)
Thanks
Jim Pickrell
RV8 N186JP 68 hrs TT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Ignition Noise Problem |
Jim,
If at all possible try running the radios from a separate battery power
source. This will tell you if the noise is being coupled through RF or power
wires. Also check your ground connections....
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JPickr8358(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ignition Noise Problem
Electric Listers,
I am using a Jeff Rose EI in place of the right mag on my 0-360 powered RV8.
There is a low level ignition noise that comes trough Com 1 (Garmin 430/
belly
ant) and Com 2 (Becker/ wing tip Archer ant) when receiving lower power
transmissions. It doesn't break the squelch. It varies with RPM and
disappears
with the EI off. I have talked to Jeff about this and he maintains that 90%
of
the time it's the ign leads arching with the less likely possibility being
noise from the power lead. I have all of the ign leads isolated from each
other by
1/2 "with non conducting material. Using aircraft plugs with gap of .035 as
recommended. There is no sign of arching along the cables or inside of the
plug barrels. The coil unit is mounted on the firewall with gnd lead to the
firewall. The power lead is shielded and the gnd pigtail is grounded to the
firewall with the shorter leads from the switch on the instrument panel to
the
battery buss (cabin side of firewall) also shielded and grounded.
Would a power lead noise filter be worth a try in a situation like this? Any
other ideas would be appreciated as the noise is irritating. (Definitely do
not want to go back to another mag)
Thanks
Jim Pickrell
RV8 N186JP 68 hrs TT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harold Kovac" <kayce(at)sysmatrix.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Another bad story |
Right on Miss Thompson, now how about your & you're....most evertone gets it
wrong.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Another bad story
>
> "> AM, were dating our self here!"
>
> "were" should be "we're" - apostrophe to represent missing "a". -2
> "our self" should be "ourselves" - one word, and plural for "we". -6
>
> 2/10
> You can do better than this.
> Miss Thompson, Gr4
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Another bad story |
At 02:39 PM 11/6/04, you wrote:
>
>Right on Miss Thompson, now how about your & you're....most evertone gets it
>wrong.
And while you're at it, how about flounder and founder? Trembler and
temblor?
If you understood what he wrote, it was good enough.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
Hi,
What is the current state of the art for measuring
battery and alternator voltage and current, both
in terms of technique and products?
I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
but none for the batteries. Why is this?
The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
for measuring bus voltage?
Many thanks for the info.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on juliet.albedo.net
My chapter 7 also says 1992.
If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
Ken
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>in terms of technique and products?
>
>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>
>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>
>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>
>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>for measuring bus voltage?
>
>Many thanks for the info.
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I can
get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
engine monitors.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
My chapter 7 also says 1992.
If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
Ken
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>in terms of technique and products?
>
>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>
>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>
>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>
>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>for measuring bus voltage?
>
>Many thanks for the info.
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AI Nut" <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
Do you know what their output is? Hopefully, 0-5vdc? If so, I'll take a
couple!
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
> I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I
can
> get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
> compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
> engine monitors.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas
> www.sterntech.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
> Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
>
> My chapter 7 also says 1992.
>
> If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
> handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
> resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
> seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
> that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
> with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
> battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
> early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
> is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
>
> My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
> 1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical
purposes.
>
> Ken
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >What is the current state of the art for measuring
> >battery and alternator voltage and current, both
> >in terms of technique and products?
> >
> >I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
> >theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
> >dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
> >
> >My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
> >of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
> >but none for the batteries. Why is this?
> >
> >The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
> >Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
> >
> >Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
> >instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
> >for measuring bus voltage?
> >
> >Many thanks for the info.
> >
> >--
> >Mickey Coggins
> >http://www.rv8.ch/
> >#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> Instrumentation |
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System |
Instrumentation
Instrumentation
Thanks for the info. Do people typically install one
of these sensors just after the alternator, as in the
Aeroelectric Connection Z figures?
Mickey
At 15:13 07-11-04, Trampas wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>
>I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I can
>get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
>compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
>engine monitors.
>
>Regards,
>Trampas
>www.sterntech.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
>Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
>
> My chapter 7 also says 1992.
>
>If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
>handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
>resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
>seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
>that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
>with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
>battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
>early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
>is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
>
>My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
>1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
>
>Ken
>
>Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>>in terms of technique and products?
>>
>>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>>
>>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>>
>>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>>
>>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>>for measuring bus voltage?
>>
>>Many thanks for the info.
>>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny(at)wiktel.com> |
| Subject: | RE:Another bad story |
At the risk of sounding exactly like what I am decrying, I just have to say
this...
This thread started out with a link to a story from a fellow that had a
problem during a night flight. He was man enough to share it, along with
what HE did wrong, so that others wouldn't make the same mistakes, and then
he expressed the belief that Someone higher than himself made it all come
out OK.
It was good to bring that link to our attention... we can all learn
something from incidents like this. Sadly, at that point the original post
got pretty caustic, and even attacked the guy's abilities and beliefs.
Subsequent posts in the thread have, for the most part, had barbs in them.
Lately we're correcting each other's spelling and grammar... humorous barbs,
perhaps?
Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so. Sure
it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I... if
you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So... where's the
beef?
C'mon people, all that this drivel accomplishes is to discourage the next
guy from contributing something that may be very helpful. Who among us
wants to take this sort of balderdash for making a
confession/comment/whatever that is offered with the sole intention of being
helpful? Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
Flame away... I'm too old to give a rip :=)) Please don't clobber the list
with fire, let's let this thread die... shoot direct at me:
Johnny(at)wiktel.com
Johnny Johnson
Been flying since '62...
Done lotza stupid things...
And... God has been there lotza times
Else... why am I still here?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation clamav-milter |
version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
The sensors sense positive and negative current. The outputs are 0-5V with 0
Amps being 2.5V. These are three wire sensors, ground, +5V, and signal.
Placement of the sensor is up to you. I know that some people place on the
main battery cable, as over current does not harm the sensors. Others place
on alternator wire, while others place have used multiple sensors and placed
one on the E-bus.
I personally placed 200Amp one on the main battery cable of my car and
installed my Pulsar 200. Since the Pulsar 200 operates down to 8V I can
measure and record the starter current draw while cranking. However
measuring the start current draw is not a real need, I just found it
interesting.
The only thing to note is that wire diameter size. Which should not be a
problem, but often the sensor needs to be installed before the connectors
for the wires are crimped on.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AI Nut
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
Do you know what their output is? Hopefully, 0-5vdc? If so, I'll take a
couple!
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
> I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I
can
> get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
> compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
> engine monitors.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas
> www.sterntech.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
> Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
>
> My chapter 7 also says 1992.
>
> If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
> handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
> resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
> seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
> that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
> with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
> battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
> early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
> is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
>
> My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
> 1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical
purposes.
>
> Ken
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >What is the current state of the art for measuring
> >battery and alternator voltage and current, both
> >in terms of technique and products?
> >
> >I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
> >theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
> >dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
> >
> >My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
> >of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
> >but none for the batteries. Why is this?
> >
> >The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
> >Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
> >
> >Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
> >instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
> >for measuring bus voltage?
> >
> >Many thanks for the info.
> >
> >--
> >Mickey Coggins
> >http://www.rv8.ch/
> >#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
> >
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:Another bad story |
Hi Johnny,
Perhaps I misread the comments, but I didn't get the impression
anyone was trying to slam the guy for his beliefs, but to
take him to task for getting himself into that situation.
All of us have done stupid things that should have gotten
us killed, whether we know it or not. "Why am I still here?"
is probably the same question as "why am I here?"
I think the overall goal of the comments on the story
was to try to get people to use their brains, and save
their prayers things that are truly out of their control.
Mickey
At 17:40 07-11-04, Johnny Johnson wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>
>At the risk of sounding exactly like what I am decrying, I just have to say
>this...
>
>This thread started out with a link to a story from a fellow that had a
>problem during a night flight. He was man enough to share it, along with
>what HE did wrong, so that others wouldn't make the same mistakes, and then
>he expressed the belief that Someone higher than himself made it all come
>out OK.
>
>It was good to bring that link to our attention... we can all learn
>something from incidents like this. Sadly, at that point the original post
>got pretty caustic, and even attacked the guy's abilities and beliefs.
>Subsequent posts in the thread have, for the most part, had barbs in them.
>Lately we're correcting each other's spelling and grammar... humorous barbs,
>perhaps?
>
>Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so. Sure
>it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I... if
>you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So... where's the
>beef?
>
>C'mon people, all that this drivel accomplishes is to discourage the next
>guy from contributing something that may be very helpful. Who among us
>wants to take this sort of balderdash for making a
>confession/comment/whatever that is offered with the sole intention of being
>helpful? Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
>please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
>
>Flame away... I'm too old to give a rip :=)) Please don't clobber the list
>with fire, let's let this thread die... shoot direct at me:
>Johnny(at)wiktel.com
>
>Johnny Johnson
>Been flying since '62...
>Done lotza stupid things...
>And... God has been there lotza times
>Else... why am I still here?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> Instrumentation |
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System |
Instrumentation
Mickey
If you install the inductive sensor on the alternator output (B) wire,
the ammeter will not show a negative charge state. By placing the sensor on
the battery positive cable, the meter will show both positive and negative
charge situations.
Charlie Kuss
> Instrumentation
>
>Thanks for the info. Do people typically install one
>of these sensors just after the alternator, as in the
>Aeroelectric Connection Z figures?
>
>Mickey
>
>At 15:13 07-11-04, Trampas wrote:
>-----Start of Original Message-----
> >
> >I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I can
> >get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
> >compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
> >engine monitors.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Trampas
> >www.sterntech.com
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
> >Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
> >
> >
> > My chapter 7 also says 1992.
> >
> >If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
> >handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
> >resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
> >seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
> >that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
> >with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
> >battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
> >early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
> >is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
> >
> >My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
> >1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >Mickey Coggins wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>What is the current state of the art for measuring
> >>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
> >>in terms of technique and products?
> >>
> >>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
> >>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
> >>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
> >>
> >>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
> >>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
> >>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
> >>
> >>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
> >>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
> >>
> >>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
> >>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
> >>for measuring bus voltage?
> >>
> >>Many thanks for the info.
> >>
>
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Another bad story. |
Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
Amen.
In a thread like this, I would hope contributors to the list could identify
what went wrong and what might have been done (in hind site) to make the
event more of a yawner. Even if the answer is simple, let's learn from
these things. If the lesson is that someone didn't believe their
instruments but should have, and that the experience could have been
avoided easily with better redundancy in the electrical system (e.g., as
proposed by Bob in his writings), then we should take that lesson and be
done with it.
I recently queried the Lancair list as to whether a 2600 foot runway was
too short for a first flight in an ES. I figured it was too short, and
could have offered reasons myself as to why. But I wanted to hear others'
opinions. I learned that the majority think it's too short, and some have
very strong feelings about why. Many expressed these feelings, along with
their reasons. The thread was valuable.
Had I thought people would jump on me for asking what some thought was a
question with an obvious answer, I would have been more reluctant to
ask. Then I might have gone with the the advice of one person I spoke
with, who said "2600' is plenty." The person who gave this answer is an
outstanding test pilot who knows how to save his bacon as well as
anyone. But the thread illuminated risks to the airframe that I've decided
aren't worth taking.
If we jump on people for sharing their stupid pilot tricks (something we
should all concede can happen to us), then valuable threads will go by the
wayside. This would be unfortunate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> Instrumentation |
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System |
Instrumentation
Instrumentation
> Instrumentation
>
>Thanks for the info. Do people typically install one
>of these sensors just after the alternator, as in the
>Aeroelectric Connection Z figures?
Yes . . . hall-effect sensors are directly interchangeable
with shunts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
>
>
>Hi,
>
>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>in terms of technique and products?
>
>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>
>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>
>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>
>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>for measuring bus voltage?
>
>Many thanks for the info.
Please keep in mind that the Z-figures are crafted to suggest
architectures . . . there are many details such as breakers vs. fuses,
wire sizes, fuse/breaker sizes, assignment of appliances to
specific busses, AND instrumentation technologies that are
subject to builder decisions based on mission, preferences and/or
pocketbook.
The ART of instrumentation is technology based. The lowly
ammeter has been with us for over a century . . . and in it's
earliest forms worked well as the simple minus-zero-plus
battery ammeter common to gazillions of ground based vehicles
and a huge percentage of airplanes.
The battery ammeter was chosen as the lowest cost, easiest
to implement display of electrical system functionality.
The the present state of the ART now offers hall effect
sensors, digital displays, and system monitoring functions
built into devices that have many other functions than to
simply monitor the state of the electrical system.
The PHILOSOPHY of instrumentation is mission/user based.
If as the builder/operator of the airplane, you find usefulness
in monitoring and displaying lots of stuff about the electrical
system's performance, then the current state of the ART is
ready to address your every need/whim.
The question you need to consider is, "How and when is
knowledge about any particular parameter useful to me?"
This should be divided into two categories (1) data useful
for comfortable completion of flight and (2) data useful
for diagnosing problems on the ground.
As to the in-flight phase, I'd be perfectly comfortable with
zero displays of either current or voltage from any part
of the system assuming that (1) the battery is of known
capacity and (2) a dual feedpath e-bus is incorporated
and (3) the system is fitted with a low voltage warning
light of high integrity for calibration and low probability
for un-annunciated failure.
This philosophy of system design would have made 90+
percent of all dark-n-stormy night stories concerning
electrical systems go away. For example, the most recently
discussed story on the list featured a mis-interpretation
of readings on an analog instrument that NORMALLY reads
zero when everything is working but can also read very
near zero when engine driven power generation has failed
and the system loads are light. This kind of instrument
offers zero active warning and potentially ambiguous
readings. When I'm wondering about the close-to-zero
reading of the battery ammeter in an old Cessna, I
turn on pitot heat or landing light to make sure it
STAYS at or near zero meaning that the alternator/generator
is picking up new system loads IRRESPECTIVE any reading
I might try to get from the instrument's poor calibration.
One cannot ignore or mis-interpret a flashing low-volts
warning light. Further, when the light does come on,
the procedure for dealing with the situation is established
by ssytem design of the operating check lists.
IF LOW VOLTS WARNING LIGHT IS ON
(1) E-BUS ALT FEED switch - On
(2) DC PWR MASTER switch - Off
(3) E-BUS loads - minimize if practical
(4) Continue flight airport with facilities
to conveniently effect repairs.
How many other instruments, displays, and technologies
are . . .
(a) Added to cost of ownership of your airplane
(b) Added to the weight and complexity of your airplane,
(c) Reduce space on the panel needed for potentially
more useful things -AND-
(d) Add distracting and non-useful data while attempting to
deal with a charging system failure in flight
. . . are entirely up to you. Beyond the Low Volts Warning
light, all other data is useful only for diagnosing the
system problem later. Your selection of panel mounted
voltmeters and/or ammeters will never provide ALL the data
you need to diagnose every problem. So after one has exhibited
ho-hum skills for getting back on terra firma with a failure
tolerant, user friendly electrical system, one
should be able to whip out the trusty multi-meter and be
exceptionally skilled at knowing EXACTLY what part needs to be
pulled before you remove anything from the airplane.
The short answer to your question is: Don't go flying
without your trusty LOW VOLTS WARN system -AND- knowing
how much fuel you have aboard. After that, put any
additional instrumentation in your airplane that strikes
your fancy and fits your architecture. The only limitation
on the entire field of instrumentation choices is that
none of the Z-figures is friendly to use of the classic
minus-0-plus battery ammeter.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Another bad story |
>
>At the risk of sounding exactly like what I am decrying, I just have to say
>this...
>
>This thread started out with a link to a story from a fellow that had a
>problem during a night flight. He was man enough to share it, along with
>what HE did wrong, so that others wouldn't make the same mistakes, and then
>he expressed the belief that Someone higher than himself made it all come
>out OK.
>
>It was good to bring that link to our attention... we can all learn
>something from incidents like this. Sadly, at that point the original post
>got pretty caustic, and even attacked the guy's abilities and beliefs.
>Subsequent posts in the thread have, for the most part, had barbs in them.
>Lately we're correcting each other's spelling and grammar... humorous barbs,
>perhaps?
>
>Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so. Sure
>it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I... if
>you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So... where's the
>beef?
Yeah, it got a bit out of hand or perhaps out of scope for
the mission of sifting real life noise for simple-ideas. The
first posting was critical but not harshly so. It was no
less that what anyone should expect from a good teacher.
I've always encouraged folks to read the dark-n-stormy
night stories in the various journals with the eye and
mind-set of an accident analyst. One of my most treasured
friends and mentor hired me at various times over the
last 40 years to assist in his accident analysis business.
We sifting the ashes, dug through piles of bent
metal, and sort through hundreds of pages of testimony
watching for hard data points that would help us
describe what happened in terms anyone could understand
and without rewriting the laws of physics.
In the times I screwed something up, his response was,
shall we say, less than comfortable. But the response
was appropriate in that it converted the situation
into a memorable and never to be repeated event.
Let's try to be aware of what our words mean, why they
are being written and what value they add to understanding.
It's good if we're able to empathise with the folks
who share their stories with us . . . that way we can
be equally empathetic with respect to appropriate verbal
keel hauling. That's the best way to convert that
story-teller's situation into a memorable and never to be
repeated event.
I wonder know how many of you remember Pilot Gomez who's
own dark-n-stormy-night story was featured in opening
pages of Chapter 17 in the 'Connection. Years after that
chapter was published, I got a note from Mr. Gomez who
was told about his story being repeated in the 'Connection.
He said he was an engineer too . . . and that he was
in full agreement with the assessment offered as to
the suitability of electrical systems in certified aircraft.
He told me he'd purchased an RV kit and was about to
get himself unhooked from the world of over-regulated
aviation. He ordered a copy of the 'Connection. I should
dig back in the records and see if I can contact him again.
It would be interesting to see how he's coming along.
Let's strive to be good teachers and students and to
learn as much as we can from what goes on around
us. It's okay to be a stern teacher but let's try to
avoid dog-piling onto someone beyond what is necessary
to share the simple-ideas that will make their life
run smoother and with more confidence.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry McFarland" <larrymc(at)qconline.com> |
| Subject: | Dual ignition selection |
Hi Guys,
After putting together the dual-ignition distributor and still having the flywheel
ignition on board, I pause to wonder. Is it safer to use the distributor
for both ignitions or is it better to use one pickup from the distributor and
the other from the external electronic flywheel ignition? Do failures occur at
the distributor cap or rotor that would push this decision this way or the other?
The only ignition failure I've had was the tach pickup on the external and that's
been no trouble since replacing it.
I'd be interested in opinions on the matter as it's a case for deciding which of
two sets of wires to use regularly.
Thanks,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS - Stratus Subaru
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:Another bad story |
On Nov 7, 2004, at 12:29 PM, Johnny Johnson wrote:
I am probably beating the dead horse but since I started this, I feel I
should reply.
> Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so.
> Sure
> it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I...
Preparation beats prayer all hollow. One needs to learn and prepare to
deal with the daily mundane problems and leave to God those times when
the fates conspire to kill you regardless of having done all the right
stuff.
Or another way of looking at it, I *KNOW* that *I* will be in the
cockpit. God might not be my copilot that day.
> if
> you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So...
> where's the
> beef?
The beef is simple. When you decide to become a pilot you take
responsibility for the safe operation of your airplane to avoid harm to
yourself and others. More than any other endeavor flying requires you
to make the right decisions. There is no one else there to help you
and no one else to blame. The gentleman's problems were basic and
avoidable, problems that, if I thought one of my students couldn't
handle, I would not let him or her fly in the pattern, let alone go on
a solo cross country. They were all something that I am fairly certain
that he was taught how to deal with when learning to fly. He avoided
common sense.
And, lastly, his stupidity will eventually affect the rest of us by
becoming an accident statistic. That will prompt the insurance
companies to affect us all in the pocket book or, worst case, it will
give the FAA non-flying bureaucrats another nail for the general
aviation coffin.
That, in a nutshell, is my beef.
> C'mon people, all that this drivel accomplishes is to discourage the
> next
> guy from contributing something that may be very helpful. Who among us
> wants to take this sort of balderdash for making a
> confession/comment/whatever that is offered with the sole intention of
> being
> helpful?
What he said wasn't helpful. He didn't offer any sort of mechanism for
recovery. He did not identify a problem for others to avoid besides,
"do what you were taught, believe your instruments, and don't be
stupid." Well, boy howdy, how helpful was that?
> Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
> please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
Hopefully it will accomplish to scare someone like that from flying
again until they can come up to speed learning to handle their
airplane. It wasn't a mistake, it wasn't a surprise, it wasn't a
combination of things that demonstrated a chain of events that would
lead to an unusual result; it was just plain old stupidity. Sometimes
you have to give someone a dope-slap on the side of the head to get
their attention.
> Flame away... I'm too old to give a rip :=))
Too bad. We need more people who give a rip.
> Please don't clobber the list
> with fire, let's let this thread die... shoot direct at me:
> Johnny(at)wiktel.com
Well, you made the point in a public forum and the public forum is
where you talk it out. Unfortunately you don't get to have the last
word that way. ;-)
> Johnny Johnson
> Been flying since '62...
> Done lotza stupid things...
> And... God has been there lotza times
> Else... why am I still here?
Perhaps you are here because, ultimately, you made the right decisions
when they were needed.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | erie <erie(at)shelbyvilledesign.com> |
| Subject: | ARC/TKM MX300 pinouts needed |
Trying to help a homebuilder I sold an MX300 to, does anybody have the
pinouts for it?
erie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual ignition selection |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on juliet.albedo.net
The less parts in common, the less the chance of one failure taking out
both systems. For instance could it possibly happen that the screws
holding one distributor pickup come loose and both distributor pickups
are damaged?
Ken
Larry McFarland wrote:
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>After putting together the dual-ignition distributor and still having the flywheel
ignition on board, I pause to wonder. Is it safer to use the distributor
for both ignitions or is it better to use one pickup from the distributor and
the other from the external electronic flywheel ignition? Do failures occur
at the distributor cap or rotor that would push this decision this way or the
other?
>
>
>The only ignition failure I've had was the tach pickup on the external and that's
been no trouble since replacing it.
>
>
>I'd be interested in opinions on the matter as it's a case for deciding which
of two sets of wires to use regularly.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Larry McFarland - 601HDS - Stratus Subaru
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "czechsix(at)juno.com" <czechsix(at)juno.com> |
Guys,
Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in sound to
what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall vane/tab that I'm putting
in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo alarm from Digikey for something
like $1 but it sounds like a fire alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking
than I want. Aircraft Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for
$740.00. You read that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway,
if somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let
me know...
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring...
Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
How about a Cessna/Piper/Beech junkyard?
I bought a 12V buzzer at Walmart that sounds a lot like a stall horn.
How about an auto wrecking yard? My Jeep seatbelt buzzer also
sounds like a stall horn.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in
> sound to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall
> vane/tab that I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo alarm
> from Digikey for something like $1 but it sounds like a fire
> alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking than I want. Aircraft
> Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for $740.00. You read
> that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway, if
> somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let me
> know...
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D wiring...
>
> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HAL KEMPTHORNE <hal_kempthorne(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:Another bad story |
Brian Lloyd wrote:
What he said wasn't helpful. He didn't offer any sort of mechanism for
recovery. He did not identify a problem for others to avoid besides,
"do what you were taught, believe your instruments, and don't be
stupid." Well, boy howdy, how helpful was that?
Helpful to some, Brian. I've never believed that imaginary friends would help
me but I have had some similar beliefs that could have gotten me trouble. For
example I have found myself believing that a machine would somehow "get better"
or maybe even "heal up". It works for my body so why not for my machine?
Well, it doesn't, usually. I suspect that such silly beliefs have been a factor
in aircraft accidents.
Maybe even more common is a belief in 'Lady Luck' or just simply luck. I was approaching
San Jose International at night many years ago with very low fuel.
I had used one tank down to where I figured I had a little left and was flying
on the fuller tank. Well before I got over the city it occured to me that if
this tank runs out, I might not have enough left in the other to go anywhere.
But I crossed my fingers and got in alright.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PeterHunt1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Ammeter/Loadmeter |
Bob:
What do you mean when you say "The only limitation on the entire field of
instrumentation choices is that none of the Z-Figures is friendly to use of the
classic minus-0-plus battery ammeter"? I am wiring to Figure Z-10 and where
you call for a loadmeter I have installed Van's "classic" -40/0/+40 ammeter.
Should I change something? I haven't lit the engine yet.
Pete Hunt
RV-6, finishing wiring
Clearwater, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter/Loadmeter |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
My appendix doesn't have a Figure Z-10... Where in the circuit does
Z-10 have the loadmeter shunt located? Is it between the battery and the
rest of the system (doubt that). Bob likes the architecture where the
alternator B lead (power output) is wired to a shunt, and then directly to
the
battery side of the starter contactor. This allows the somewhat noisy
alternator output to use the starter wire as its connection to the
battery, and
thus to have the lowest resistance path to the best noise filter in the
airplane.
A downside of this architecture is that you don't have any visibility (if
this is
the only instrumentation) of whether the battery is getting charged (or
discharged). The shunt will only give an indication of how much current
the alternator is providing. The loadmeter would only provide a negative
reading
if the alternator fails (and shorts somehow). This architecture combined
with
a bus voltmeter is perfectly adequate... If the bus voltage is good, and the
loadmeter is up, everything is okay.
Placing the shunt between the battery and the rest of the system will either
require a high amperage shunt/ammeter (to handle hundreds of amps of
cranking current), or you can just live with the ammeter peggin (hard) when
you crank the starter - plus some heat buildup in the shunt.
Regards,
Matt-
>
> Bob:
>
> What do you mean when you say "The only limitation on the entire field
> of instrumentation choices is that none of the Z-Figures is friendly to
> use of the classic minus-0-plus battery ammeter"? I am wiring to
> Figure Z-10 and where you call for a loadmeter I have installed Van's
> "classic" -40/0/+40 ammeter. Should I change something? I haven't lit
> the engine yet.
>
> Pete Hunt
> RV-6, finishing wiring
> Clearwater, FL
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter/Loadmeter |
I'll throw out another idea suggested by Jim Weir. I used a 0-50MV meter to indicate
current flow by connecting it to each end of wire I wished to measure by
looking at the voltage drop across the wire. I didn't care about the absolute
value but only if it was other than normal. To prevent 'slamming' the meter
during starting I installed a miniature relay in the sensing line which opens
when power is applied to the starter solenoid. By selecting an appropriate
resistor installed in parallel with the meter and a switch labeled X1 - X10 I
was able to select the most sensitive position depending on what I have turned
on. (like pitot heat or not) I have two meters: one for battery current and
the other for alternator. So far this method has worked fine for me. Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky) |
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | GRT EFIS/Engine Monitor/Moving Map yahoo list |
FYI for those interested in some common space to share and learn info about the
Grand Rapids Tech EFIS, Graphic Engine Monitoring and Moving Map Display system.
http://www.grtavionics.com/
* Your group information:
Group name: GRT_EFIS
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS
Group email address: http://mailcenter2.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/41901FE5000DB8410000389A2200748184970C0E0397050C9A04?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=GRT%5FEFIS%40yahoogroups%2Ecom&sid=c0
FYI for those interested in some common space to share and learn info about the
Grand Rapids Tech EFIS, Graphic Engine Monitoring and Moving Map Display system.
http://www.grtavionics.com/ >http://www.grtavionics.com/
* Your group information:
Group name: GRT_EFIS
Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS
Group email address: http://mailcenter2.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/41901FE5000DB8410000389A2200748184970C0E0397050C9A04?cmd=ComposeToadr=GRT_EFIS@yahoogroups.comsid=c0 onclick="return doCompose(this);" ">http://mailcenter2.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/41901FE5000DB8410000389A2200748184970C0E0397050C9A04?cmd=ComposeToadr=GRT%5FEFIS%40yahoogroups%2Ecomsid=c0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
11/08/2004
Hello Bob Nuckolls and Other Electricals, I am trying to nail down the regulatory
requirement for pilot access to and control of ELTs from the cockpit while
airborne. The ELT TSO-C91a does not contain the requirement itself, but I have
been told that the requirement can be found in one of these two RTCA documents
which are referenced by the TSO.
DO-183, Minimum Operational Performance Standards for Emergency Locator Transmitters-Automatic
Fixed-ELT (AF), Automatic Portable-ELT (AP), Automatic Deployable-ELT
(AD), Survival-ELT (S) Operating on 121.5 and 243.0 Megahertz
DO-182, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Equipment Installation and Performance
Unfortunately these two documents from the RTCA cost money.
Would anyone have access to these documents and be willing to help me locate the
specific access requirement (if it exists)? Many thanks.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> |
A review of FARs 91.205 (Equipment requirements) and 91.207 (ELTs) shows no
requirement for pilot access or control of an ELT. The documents you
mention are, I believe, performance specifications, not regulations.
Dennis Glaeser
> 11/08/2004 -------------------
Hello Bob Nuckolls and Other Electricals,
I am trying to nail down the regulatory requirement for pilot access to and
control of ELTs from the cockpit while airborne. The ELT TSO-C91a does not
contain the requirement itself, but I have been told that the requirement
can be found in one of these two RTCA documents which are referenced by the
TSO. DO-183, Minimum Operational Performance Standards for Emergency Locator
Transmitters-Automatic Fixed-ELT (AF), Automatic Portable-ELT (AP),
Automatic Deployable-ELT (AD), Survival-ELT (S) Operating on 121.5 and 243.0
Megahertz DO-182, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Equipment Installation
and Performance. Unfortunately these two documents from the RTCA cost
money. Would anyone have access to these documents and be willing to help me
locate the specific access requirement (if it exists)?
Many thanks.
OC
----------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Olivier Le Carbonnier" <olcdlm(at)laposte.net> |
why not a AOA ?
Olivier LC
France
ICQ#: 82067330
sanglier(at)laposte.net
http://sangliervolant.chez.tiscali.fr Van's RV-8 n81939 wings
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de
czechsix(at)juno.com
Envoy : lundi 8 novembre 2004 19:34
: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
Guys,
Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in sound
to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall vane/tab that
I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo alarm from Digikey for
something like $1 but it sounds like a fire alarm....it's a bit more shrill
and shocking than I want. Aircraft Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn
with light for $740.00. You read that right...$740! That doesn't include
the vane. So anyway, if somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a
beastie please let me know...
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring...
Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bristolsabre(at)aol.com |
My thought too,
but thath was not what the question was.
Also if $740 is a lot of money, $800+ is more
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Not cheap... I have seen them start at $600.
MAP
>
>
> why not a AOA ?
>
> Olivier LC
> France
> ICQ#: 82067330
> sanglier(at)laposte.net
> http://sangliervolant.chez.tiscali.fr Van's RV-8 n81939 wings
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de
> czechsix(at)juno.com
> Envoy : lundi 8 novembre 2004 19:34
> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Objet : AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>
>
>
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in
> sound to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall
> vane/tab that I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo alarm
> from Digikey for something like $1 but it sounds like a fire
> alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking than I want. Aircraft
> Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for $740.00. You read
> that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway, if
> somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let me
> know...
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D wiring...
>
> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny(at)wiktel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Another bad story |
Hi Brian,
I wasnt trying to pick a fight here, but you got my hackles up a bit so I
ll respond. You say we should keep the discourse public--fine for now to
the rest of you, my apologies.
My point--that I apparently didnt make very well--was simply that deriding
someone in public does no good, and in fact will discourage others from
contributing. That our victim didnt format it in a way that pleased you is
unfortunate, but please give us credit for being smart enough to get the
message. You make several excellent points about the situation, but I
humbly submit, sir, that you are not the only one in this old world with
discernment or insight. IMHO it simply was not necessary to drag this guy
thru the brambles in public--it should have been done privately, if at all.
You have a different God than I do if you believe that He might not be
there that day that preparation beats prayer all hollow that the fates
conspire but thats your right. Ive been shot at--have you? I KNOW that
Im here because of the intervention--on more than one occasion--by Someone
larger than myself, not because of making the right decisions, not because
of luck or beating the odds or having great skill. You can rationalize it
any way you want, lecture me all you want, but you wont change my mind. If
you could have been in the cockpit with me, I think you would look at things
a little differently today--twas single seat or I would have invited you
along :=)
Ive been pretty blunt, on purpose. Please understand that none of this is
intended to be a personal attack on your knowledge or integrity or any of
that good stuff. We disagree on style and apparently on core beliefs Im
simply calling it like I see it, without fluff. I trust it will be taken in
that spirit.
Regards,
Johnny Johnson
Johnny(at)wiktel.com
From: Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE:Another bad story
On Nov 7, 2004, at 12:29 PM, Johnny Johnson wrote:
I am probably beating the dead horse but since I started this, I feel I
should reply.
> Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so.
> Sure
> it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I...
Preparation beats prayer all hollow. One needs to learn and prepare to
deal with the daily mundane problems and leave to God those times when
the fates conspire to kill you regardless of having done all the right
stuff.
Or another way of looking at it, I *KNOW* that *I* will be in the
cockpit. God might not be my copilot that day.
> if
> you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So...
> where's the
> beef?
The beef is simple. When you decide to become a pilot you take
responsibility for the safe operation of your airplane to avoid harm to
yourself and others. More than any other endeavor flying requires you
to make the right decisions. There is no one else there to help you
and no one else to blame. The gentleman's problems were basic and
avoidable, problems that, if I thought one of my students couldn't
handle, I would not let him or her fly in the pattern, let alone go on
a solo cross country. They were all something that I am fairly certain
that he was taught how to deal with when learning to fly. He avoided
common sense.
And, lastly, his stupidity will eventually affect the rest of us by
becoming an accident statistic. That will prompt the insurance
companies to affect us all in the pocket book or, worst case, it will
give the FAA non-flying bureaucrats another nail for the general
aviation coffin.
That, in a nutshell, is my beef.
> C'mon people, all that this drivel accomplishes is to discourage the
> next
> guy from contributing something that may be very helpful. Who among us
> wants to take this sort of balderdash for making a
> confession/comment/whatever that is offered with the sole intention of
> being
> helpful?
What he said wasn't helpful. He didn't offer any sort of mechanism for
recovery. He did not identify a problem for others to avoid besides,
"do what you were taught, believe your instruments, and don't be
stupid." Well, boy howdy, how helpful was that?
> Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
> please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
Hopefully it will accomplish to scare someone like that from flying
again until they can come up to speed learning to handle their
airplane. It wasn't a mistake, it wasn't a surprise, it wasn't a
combination of things that demonstrated a chain of events that would
lead to an unusual result; it was just plain old stupidity. Sometimes
you have to give someone a dope-slap on the side of the head to get
their attention.
> Flame away... I'm too old to give a rip :=))
Too bad. We need more people who give a rip.
> Please don't clobber the list
> with fire, let's let this thread die... shoot direct at me:
> Johnny(at)wiktel.com
Well, you made the point in a public forum and the public forum is
where you talk it out. Unfortunately you don't get to have the last
word that way. ;-)
> Johnny Johnson
> Been flying since '62...
> Done lotza stupid things...
> And... God has been there lotza times
> Else... why am I still here?
Perhaps you are here because, ultimately, you made the right decisions
when they were needed.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie <charleyb(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Low Voltage Warning Light |
Bob,
Is there a simple schematic for a low voltage warning light for an
All-Electric on a Budget system with an externally regulated alternator
and a generic (Ford?) voltage regulator? Can't find one in the
Connection or on your site, or at least haven't recoginized it.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DWENSING(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GPS antenna |
In a message dated 11/3/04 8:02:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
harley(at)AgelessWings.com writes:
Harley,
Thanks again for the info. The new antenna from gpsgeek works great! And it
sure beats the price of the Garmin.
Dale Ensing
> First, it's not just an antenna...it's also an amplifier of sorts. But,
> if it really is faulty, it may be a better choice to get one of these
> units instead of Garmin...I think you'll find they are basically the
> same thing.
>
> http://www.gpsgeek.com/page3.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GPS antenna |
Evenin', Dale...
You're welcome! Glad it worked for you...
Now that you've tested it, I know what to do if I ever run into that
problem!
H.
DWENSING(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 11/3/04 8:02:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>harley(at)AgelessWings.com writes:
>
>Harley,
>Thanks again for the info. The new antenna from gpsgeek works great! And it
>sure beats the price of the Garmin.
>Dale Ensing
>
>
>
>>First, it's not just an antenna...it's also an amplifier of sorts. But,
>>if it really is faulty, it may be a better choice to get one of these
>>units instead of Garmin...I think you'll find they are basically the
>>same thing.
>>
>>http://www.gpsgeek.com/page3.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light |
>
>Bob,
>
>Is there a simple schematic for a low voltage warning light for an
>All-Electric on a Budget system with an externally regulated alternator
>and a generic (Ford?) voltage regulator? Can't find one in the
>Connection or on your site, or at least haven't recoginized it.
Sure. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: ELT Access |
>
>
>A review of FARs 91.205 (Equipment requirements) and 91.207 (ELTs) shows no
>requirement for pilot access or control of an ELT. The documents you
>mention are, I believe, performance specifications, not regulations.
>
> Dennis Glaeser
Thank you sir, I was going to say the same thing but didn't
get to it before you did.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter/Loadmeter |
>
>
>My appendix doesn't have a Figure Z-10... Where in the circuit does
>Z-10 have the loadmeter shunt located?
Z-10 (and all latest z-figures are always available at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings
in both ACAD .dwg format and .pdf Adobe format.
Figure Z-10, as do all 'Connection Z-figures, suggests
loadmeters because they're friendly to the recommended
architectures that avoid bringing the alternator b-lead
into the cockpit.
>Is it between the battery and the
>rest of the system (doubt that). Bob likes the architecture where the
>alternator B lead (power output) is wired to a shunt, and then directly to
>the
>battery side of the starter contactor. This allows the somewhat noisy
>alternator output to use the starter wire as its connection to the
>battery, and
>thus to have the lowest resistance path to the best noise filter in the
>airplane.
>A downside of this architecture is that you don't have any visibility (if
>this is
>the only instrumentation) of whether the battery is getting charged (or
>discharged). The shunt will only give an indication of how much current
>the alternator is providing. The loadmeter would only provide a negative
>reading
>if the alternator fails (and shorts somehow). This architecture combined
>with
>a bus voltmeter is perfectly adequate... If the bus voltage is good, and the
>loadmeter is up, everything is okay.
>
>Placing the shunt between the battery and the rest of the system will either
>require a high amperage shunt/ammeter (to handle hundreds of amps of
>cranking current), or you can just live with the ammeter peggin (hard) when
>you crank the starter - plus some heat buildup in the shunt.
Given that voltmeters, and all forms of ammeters are
at best, diagnostic tools, the probability of comfortable
completion of any flight hinges more on knowing when the
alternator quits and knowing how well the battery will
run the system for the remainder of flight are key
data points. Assuming one has active notification of low
voltage, there is no operational "advantage" to be
achieved by installing a minus-0-plus ammeter as opposed
to a loadmeter.
Matt correctly notes that adding a battery ammeter to
any of the z-figures requires a huge shunt and instrument
immune to starter current loads. In my never humble opinion,
increases weight and cost with zero return on investment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter/Loadmeter |
>
>Bob:
>
>What do you mean when you say "The only limitation on the entire field of
>instrumentation choices is that none of the Z-Figures is friendly to use
>of the
>classic minus-0-plus battery ammeter"? I am wiring to Figure Z-10 and where
>you call for a loadmeter I have installed Van's "classic" -40/0/+40 ammeter.
>Should I change something? I haven't lit the engine yet.
The ammeter you have was originally intended for installation
as a battery-ammeter in the historically popular automotive
electrical system architecture.
You can wire this instrument as an alternator loadmeter
just keep in mind that it will ALWAYS read zero and above.
Not a 'bad' thing, it simply tosses off half of the useful
scale of the instrument. The danger is that some individual
not familiar with how it's used may believe it to be
a battery-ammeter based on it's markings . . . and might
mis-interpret what it's saying. For example, after an hour
of flight, your loadmeter is going to read present load on
the alternator which is always a positive value. Another
pilot might become concerned when what he perceives as
a battery-ammeter never goes to zero indicating the battery
is charged. The important thing is that YOU understand
how it should function so that you can properly interpret
what it tells you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au> |
Bob,
I will have my battery forward of the firewall and within 200mm (8") of
the engine ground stud. I will also have a firewall ground kit (B&C) on
the composite firewall no more than 300mm (12") from the battery.
Assuming all cables will be properly restrained, in connecting up the
earth straps which routing method would you prefer?
1) Battery -ive to Firewall Gnd to Engine Gnd
or
2) Battery -ive to Engine Gnd to Firewall Gnd
or
3) Battery -ive to Firewall Gnd and another Battery -ive to Engine Gnd
Left to my own devices I would choose No 2 because I think it is the
most likely way to prevent the smoking behind the panel problem you
cited in the 'connection'. Also, I think I would use a continuous strap
with a third flag terminal somewhere in the middle so that in the event
of the connection at the engine coming loose, I would still have battery
power. I am well aware that losing battery power in my little VFR
aircraft would not really matter, nevertheless, if there is such a thing
as 'best practice' in this regard, I would prefer to adopt it.
Thank you in anticipation
Kingsley Hurst
Europa Mono Classic 281 in Oz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
From: "Giffen A. Marr" <GAMarr(at)Charter.Net>
Date: 2004/11/09 Tue PM 07:34:41 EST
Subject: ELT
<>
11/09/2004
Hello Giff, Thanks for your response. My question about the regulatory requirements
for pilot access to or control of the ELT while in flight are not answered
by FAR Sec. 91.207. The audit trail goes like this:
1) FAR Sec. 91.207 (a) (1) says that one must have an *approved* ELT for our operations
(with some exceptions). In FAA parlance that means approved by the FAA
Administrator.
2) There are other ways of having the FAA Administrator (or his authorized representative)
approve things, but the TSO process is the most commonly recognized
way.
3) TSO-C91 is rendered obsolete for new installations after June 21, 1995 by FAR
Sec. 91.207 (a) (1).
4) TSO-C91a is the currently effective TSO for ELTs. One must either have an ELT
that meets TSO-C91a or have an ELT that has been approved by the FAA Administrator
by some other means.
5) TSO-C91a, like so many other TSOs, is a bare shell of a document that provides
no meat within itself, but instead provides references to other documents that
are the real guts of the TSO.
6) Without access to the pertinent referenced documents the answer to my question
is unknown. I am unwilling to accept all the hearsay, gossip, and rumor that
so many people are willing to put forward on this subject. I want to see the
applicable portions of the referenced documents for myself.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Olivier Le Carbonnier" <olcdlm(at)laposte.net> |
where ?
Olivier
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Matt
Prather
Envoy : mardi 9 novembre 2004 21:19
: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
Not cheap... I have seen them start at $600.
MAP
>
>
> why not a AOA ?
>
> Olivier LC
> France
> ICQ#: 82067330
> sanglier(at)laposte.net
> http://sangliervolant.chez.tiscali.fr Van's RV-8 n81939 wings
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de
> czechsix(at)juno.com
> Envoy : lundi 8 novembre 2004 19:34
> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Objet : AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>
>
>
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in
> sound to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall
> vane/tab that I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo alarm
> from Digikey for something like $1 but it sounds like a fire
> alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking than I want. Aircraft
> Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for $740.00. You read
> that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway, if
> somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let me
> know...
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D wiring...
>
> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Another bad story |
On Nov 9, 2004, at 4:38 PM, Johnny Johnson wrote:
>
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> I wasnt trying to pick a fight here, but you got my hackles up a bit
> so I
> ll respond. You say we should keep the discourse public--fine for now
> to
> the rest of you, my apologies.
I am not trying to pick a fight either. I apologize for getting your
hackles up.
> My point--that I apparently didnt make very well--was simply that
> deriding
> someone in public does no good, and in fact will discourage others from
> contributing. That our victim didnt format it in a way that pleased
> you is
> unfortunate, but please give us credit for being smart enough to get
> the
> message. You make several excellent points about the situation, but I
> humbly submit, sir, that you are not the only one in this old world
> with
> discernment or insight. IMHO it simply was not necessary to drag this
> guy
> thru the brambles in public--it should have been done privately, if at
> all.
Hmm, he chose to make it public by submitting it to a very large public
forum. His behavior affects us all.
I apologize if you think I was too harsh. Unfortunately I live in a
world where my flying, something very important to me, is controlled by
the whims of government bureaucrats who know nothing of flying. They
believe that their job is to make flying safe at all costs. Since
flying is not inherently safe but is rendered safe by the proper
attitudes and responses of the people operating the airplanes, I get
powerfully annoyed when people operate an aircraft in a stupid and
unsafe manner. The bureaucrats are eventually going to figure out that
perfect safety occurs when there are no aircraft flying. That meets
their stated goals but I don't believe it meets mine.
> You have a different God than I do if you believe that He might not be
> there that day that preparation beats prayer all hollow that the fates
> conspire but thats your right.
I have had prayers that, for whatever reason, have gone unanswered. I
do not pretend to know or understand the wisdom of God. Since I have
no control over that aspect of life I focus on the things that I *CAN*
control. At no point did the gentleman in question need divine
intervention to solve his problem. All his problems would have been
solved by doing what he was taught in the beginning.
> Ive been shot at--have you?
Not that I believe that this is germane to the issue but, no. I have
had the muzzle of a gun placed in my face and I was fairly sure that I
was experiencing the last moments of my life. I have also faced
life-threatening situations, many in the cockpit of an airplane. When
one penetrates an embedded CB, one prays (yes, prays) that the AI
doesn't tumble because flying partial-panel in that situation would
probably lead to an end-of-life experience equal to that of being shot
with the exception that I would have minutes to contemplate the end. I
only hope that, should something like that happen, I will still be
trying to fly the airplane right up to the end.
That said, I do believe that I have met the challenges that life has
handed me and acquitted myself acceptably ... so far.
> I KNOW that
> Im here because of the intervention--on more than one occasion--by
> Someone
> larger than myself, not because of making the right decisions, not
> because
> of luck or beating the odds or having great skill. You can
> rationalize it
> any way you want, lecture me all you want, but you wont change my
> mind. If
> you could have been in the cockpit with me, I think you would look at
> things
> a little differently today--twas single seat or I would have invited
> you
> along :=)
And I would have liked to have gone along. The end of the Vietnam war
and the first Arab oil embargo convinced me that things were not going
to be all that interesting in the USAF for a pilot so I got out.
I am not interested in changing your mind. I would just like to see
people take responsibility for what they can change and not depend on
God to save their sorry ass when they have failed to do what they
should have done. Yes, I hope and pray for divine intervention when I
desperately need it. OTOH, I hope and pray that I have done all I can
to avoid the need for divine intervention.
You know, that is what this list is all about: preparation so as to
avoid the need for divine intervention. This is a very good thing.
> Ive been pretty blunt, on purpose.
Blunt is good. I like blunt as you no doubt have deduced.
> Please understand that none of this is
> intended to be a personal attack on your knowledge or integrity or any
> of
> that good stuff.
No worries. I will be happy to buy the first round should we meet.
> We disagree on style and apparently on core beliefs Im
> simply calling it like I see it, without fluff. I trust it will be
> taken in
> that spirit.
Which spirit do you prefer: beer, wine, or whisky? :-)
> Regards,
> Johnny Johnson
> Johnny(at)wiktel.com
>
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hmmmm... |
On Nov 10, 2004, at 8:07 AM, Johnny Johnson wrote:
>
>
> The missile I lobbed yesterday was edited somehow, probably by
> automatic
> stripping of MS Word formatting?? Most punctuation was gone--it looks
> pretty corny. The missile I was replying to was fine for some reason.
You should try to make sure that your mail program is sending plain
text, not HTML, RTF, or MS-anything. Matronics strips anything that
could possibly carry a virus or worm. If you prepare your messages
using MS-word you will most likely give your recipients formatting
heartburn. Plain text is understood by every email system in the
world. MS-word is far less universal.
> And this was in the header, I didn't put it there. Wonder what
> that's all
> about? I didn't think this was about winning or losing.
>
My guess is that this is part of the SPAM identification system, the
most common being Spamassassin. It has many rules looking for key
words, phrases, and patterns. When you get enough of them it decides
the message is SPAM. You had a low probability phrase in your text,
probably, "who really wins," which matched so it assigned a value of
0.09 to it. Spamassassin usually requires the message to achieve a
score of 5 to be deemed SPAM.
>
> This thread has died as far as I'm concerned, much to the relief of
> many I'm
> sure. My apologies to all of you for venting.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A"
<>
11/10/2004
Hello Dennis (and Bob Nuckolls), Thank you for your inputs.
Dennis, you are right. The answer to the question of what is the specific regulatory
requirement for pilot access to and control of the ELT while airborne cannot
be found in either FAR Sections 91.205 or 91.207.
But if the requirement for that access and control is contained in the references
to TSO-C91a and the basis for the *approved* ELT, that you are required to
have in your aircraft per FAR Sec 91.207, is TSO-C91a then you must by regulation
meet that requirement.
I am not satisfied with hearsay, gossip, rumor, beliefs, or speculation. These
are readily available very cheap and I can generate my own. They do not resolve
the issue.
The requirement either exists in black and white print or it does not and I feel
an obligation to know the facts. The facts are not in readily available US Govt
documents, but are instead contained (or not) in references provided by an
independent standards organization, the RTCA.
The closest that I have been able to come to these references is these two titles:
DO-183, Minimum Operational Performance Standards for Emergency Locator
Transmitters-Automatic Fixed-ELT (AF), Automatic Portable-ELT (AP),
Automatic Deployable-ELT (AD), Survival-ELT (S) Operating on 121.5 and
243.0 Megahertz
DO-182, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Equipment Installation and
Performance
OC
PS: This issue may come up when the initial airworthiness inspector of your amateur
built experimental aircraft insists that you have such access and control
over your ELT because it is *required by regulations* or he will not grant the
airworthiness certificate.
Is he correct?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi OC-
> 5) TSO-C91a, like so many other TSOs, is a bare shell of a document that
provides
> no meat within itself, but instead provides references to other documents
that
> are the real guts of the TSO.
FWIW, the EDMO wesite says: A remote panel control switch with visual
activation monitor, previously an optional accessory, is now required in
all (AF) automatic fixed installations and many of the (AP) automatic
portable installations, is now included in the complete kits.
My installation manual from Ameri- King says: NOTE: The Remote Unit is
Required by C91a. It is not optional.
My local fed says: Where is the remote control for the ELT? You know
that's required now...
> 6) Without access to the pertinent referenced documents the answer to my
question
> is unknown. I am unwilling to accept all the hearsay, gossip, and rumor
that
> so many people are willing to put forward on this subject. I want to see
the
> applicable portions of the referenced documents for myself.
>
> OC
If you still must see the source document (DO-183), it is available from
RTCA for $48, plus shipping and handling.
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I'll take this opportunity to correct myself a bit.. Aircraft spruce has a
vane style unit for $545 here:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoartangle.php
It seems they pretty much go up from there. Another option, depending
on how much cool stuff you are going to put in the panel is the Dynon
EFIS. They are having some teething trouble, but I think they'll sort it
out. They offer an AOA pitot probe for $200 (only works with their
EFIS). The total cost would be about $2600 which while a pretty good
value is not cheap.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/efisd10.php
Matt-
>
>
> where ?
>
> Olivier
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Matt
> Prather
> Envoy : mardi 9 novembre 2004 21:19
> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>
>
>
>
> Not cheap... I have seen them start at $600.
>
> MAP
>
>>
>>
>> why not a AOA ?
>>
>> Olivier LC
>> France
>> ICQ#: 82067330
>> sanglier(at)laposte.net
>> http://sangliervolant.chez.tiscali.fr Van's RV-8 n81939 wings
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de
>> czechsix(at)juno.com
>> Envoy : lundi 8 novembre 2004 19:34
>> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
>> Objet : AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in
>> sound to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall
>> vane/tab that I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo
>> alarm from Digikey for something like $1 but it sounds like a fire
>> alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking than I want. Aircraft
>> Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for $740.00. You
>> read that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway, if
>> somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let
>> me know...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Mark Navratil
>> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
>> RV-8A N2D wiring...
>>
>> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
>> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>From: "Giffen A. Marr" <GAMarr(at)Charter.Net>
>Date: 2004/11/09 Tue PM 07:34:41 EST
>To:
>Subject: ELT
>
><look at the international standards, ICAO Annex 6 Part I contains the
>requirements in Chapter 4, Systems and Equipment. I would be very
>surprised if the RTCA Document has any reference to accessibility. It
>should only contain engineering performance requirements for the unit.
>Giff Marr>>
>
>11/09/2004
>
>Hello Giff, Thanks for your response. My question about the regulatory
>requirements for pilot access to or control of the ELT while in flight are
>not answered by FAR Sec. 91.207. The audit trail goes like this:
>
>1) FAR Sec. 91.207 (a) (1) says that one must have an *approved* ELT for
>our operations (with some exceptions). In FAA parlance that means approved
>by the FAA Administrator.
>
>2) There are other ways of having the FAA Administrator (or his authorized
>representative) approve things, but the TSO process is the most commonly
>recognized way.
>
>3) TSO-C91 is rendered obsolete for new installations after June 21, 1995
>by FAR Sec. 91.207 (a) (1).
>
>4) TSO-C91a is the currently effective TSO for ELTs. One must either have
>an ELT that meets TSO-C91a or have an ELT that has been approved by the
>FAA Administrator by some other means.
>
>5) TSO-C91a, like so many other TSOs, is a bare shell of a document that
>provides no meat within itself, but instead provides references to other
>documents that are the real guts of the TSO.
>
>6) Without access to the pertinent referenced documents the answer to my
>question is unknown. I am unwilling to accept all the hearsay, gossip, and
>rumor that so many people are willing to put forward on this subject. I
>want to see the applicable portions of the referenced documents for myself.
See
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/ELT's%20and%20Homebuilt%20Aircraft.html
http://www.artex.net/faq_remoteswitches.html
http://www.alaska.faa.gov/faifsdo/mechairnews1.htm
http://www.forpilots.com/archive/rec.aviation.owning/18/msg18463.htm
http://www.avionicswest.com/articles/eltupdate.htm
RAC's bizjets have 91a certified ELTs and no remote switches.
Bonanza's have had remote switches for a few years but did not
initially install them when the 91a ELTs became available.
Part 91 does not speak to installation requirements, only
to the periodic testing of "controls" as-installed.
I'm not clear about the concern . . .
It's not clear that installing the remote switch is a
REQUIREMENT or simply an option provided by the design
that adds some degree of optional convenience to the operator.
I presume you're planning to install an ELT irrespective of
any requirements to have one. If it's a new (TSO-C91a) model,
and comes fitted with a remote switch option, would it not
be a prudent thing to utilize it in your project irrespective
of requirements? For my money, if I wanted an ELT that REALLY
works, I'd go for the GPS aided location option as well.
This ELT broadcasts your exact location which has a lot
better resolution than satellite based locator system.
If you have a list of RTCA documents you'd like to see,
post it and I'll see if I can put my hands on them.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I will have my battery forward of the firewall and within 200mm (8") of
>the engine ground stud. I will also have a firewall ground kit (B&C) on
>the composite firewall no more than 300mm (12") from the battery.
>
>Assuming all cables will be properly restrained, in connecting up the
>earth straps which routing method would you prefer?
>
>1) Battery (-) to Firewall Gnd to Engine Gnd
>or
>2) Battery (-) to Engine Gnd to Firewall Gnd
>or
>3) Battery (-) to Firewall Gnd and another Battery -ive to Engine Gnd
>
>Left to my own devices I would choose No 2 because I think it is the
>most likely way to prevent the smoking behind the panel problem you
>cited in the 'connection'. Also, I think I would use a continuous strap
>with a third flag terminal somewhere in the middle so that in the event
>of the connection at the engine coming loose, I would still have battery
>power. I am well aware that losing battery power in my little VFR
>aircraft would not really matter, nevertheless, if there is such a thing
>as 'best practice' in this regard, I would prefer to adopt it.
For the most part, ground "reliability" is not a real issue.
Other than cases where a mechanic failed to properly install
fasteners, the actual configuration of grounding is important
only from a perspective of noise (ground loop minimization).
#4 wire is entirely sufficient for all fat wires in your
installation. A single braided strap from crankcase to
firewall ground stud is sufficient. A single 4AWG connection
between battery (-) and firwall ground stud is next. These
two wires take care of your fat-wire portion of the ground system.
Consider use of #4 welding cable for battery (-) and battery (+)
connections irrespective of what type of wire is choosen for the
rest of the system. Welding cable is quite flexible and will
reduce stresses on battery posts to an absolute minimum. Virtually
all battery post failures I've become aware of in OBAM aircraft
have been the result of connection with very stiff 2AWG Tefzel
wire or worse yet, connection with sheet metal or "bus bar" from
battery terminals to ground and/or adjacent contactor.
You are more at-risk for loss of battery due overly robust
terminal connections than from connections that are too
few or too light.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> |
In short, NO, he is not correct! If your inspector says that control of the
ELT in the cockpit is required by regulation, ask him (or her) to show you
that regulation! (and a TSO is NOT a regulation)
Any references to cockpit controls in a TSO would be to specify the
performance requirements of such a device, but does not require that it
exists. The TSO may have specs for lots of options (i.e. portable antenna,
microphone, indicator lights, ...) but that does not mean that they are
required by regulation. If your unit is TSO'd, it's legal. If you want
optional stuff, it has to be covered by the TSO as well, but it is still
optional.
The FARs cited specify what is required - and cockpit controls are not
there, so they are not required! Go out to the flight line of your local
FBO and see how many certified airplanes have a cockpit control for the ELT
- I'll bet it will be very few, if any!
Cockpit controls are a convenience for testing (2 sweeps during the first 5
minutes after the hour), and occasionally re-setting after a 'firm arrival',
without having to open up access panels to get to the actual unit.
Dennis Glaeser
-----Original Message-----
From: bakerocb(at)cox.net [mailto:bakerocb(at)cox.net]
Subject: ELT Access
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A"
<>
11/10/2004
Hello Dennis (and Bob Nuckolls), Thank you for your inputs.
Dennis, you are right. The answer to the question of what is the specific
regulatory requirement for pilot access to and control of the ELT while
airborne cannot be found in either FAR Sections 91.205 or 91.207.
But if the requirement for that access and control is contained in the
references to TSO-C91a and the basis for the *approved* ELT, that you are
required to have in your aircraft per FAR Sec 91.207, is TSO-C91a then you
must by regulation meet that requirement.
I am not satisfied with hearsay, gossip, rumor, beliefs, or speculation.
These are readily available very cheap and I can generate my own. They do
not resolve the issue.
The requirement either exists in black and white print or it does not and I
feel an obligation to know the facts. The facts are not in readily available
US Gov't documents, but are instead contained (or not) in references
provided by an independent standards organization, the RTCA.
The closest that I have been able to come to these references is these two
titles:
DO-183, Minimum Operational Performance Standards for Emergency Locator
Transmitters-Automatic Fixed-ELT (AF), Automatic Portable-ELT (AP),
Automatic Deployable-ELT (AD), Survival-ELT (S) Operating on 121.5 and
243.0 Megahertz
DO-182, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Equipment Installation and
Performance
OC
PS: This issue may come up when the initial airworthiness inspector of your
amateur built experimental aircraft insists that you have such access and
control over your ELT because it is *required by regulations* or he will not
grant the airworthiness certificate.
Is he correct?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter/Loadmeter |
-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter/Loadmeter
>
>Bob:
>
>What do you mean when you say "The only limitation on the entire field of
>instrumentation choices is that none of the Z-Figures is friendly to use
>of the
>classic minus-0-plus battery ammeter"? I am wiring to Figure Z-10 and where
>you call for a loadmeter I have installed Van's "classic" -40/0/+40 ammeter.
>Should I change something? I haven't lit the engine yet.
The ammeter you have was originally intended for installation
as a battery-ammeter in the historically popular automotive
electrical system architecture.
You can wire this instrument as an alternator loadmeter
just keep in mind that it will ALWAYS read zero and above.
Not a 'bad' thing, it simply tosses off half of the useful
scale of the instrument. The danger is that some individual
not familiar with how it's used may believe it to be
a battery-ammeter based on it's markings . . . and might
mis-interpret what it's saying. For example, after an hour
of flight, your loadmeter is going to read present load on
the alternator which is always a positive value. Another
pilot might become concerned when what he perceives as
a battery-ammeter never goes to zero indicating the battery
is charged. The important thing is that YOU understand
how it should function so that you can properly interpret
what it tells you.
Bob . . .
Bob...
Why not then just a voltmeter? No shunt required.
As long as it reads 13.8 - 14.5V you know the alternator is supplying power.
How does a loadmeter keep the B-lead out of the cockpit?.
The B-lead has to feed the bus. The bus is in the cockpit.
What am I missing here?
Chris Stone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: [RV-8] Single Point Grounding |
>
>This issue arose recently for builders of Lancair ES's, which typically
>mount the battery(s) in the rear for weight and balance reasons. Awhile
>back Bob published a diagram labelled Z-14RearBats.pdf, or something like
>that. This is a modification of Z-14 when batteries are mounted in the
>rear. This diagram calls for groundblocks in front and back with a fat
>wire connecting them. Then you can ground items in back to the rear
>ground block.
>
>I can send this to you if you need it, or perhaps Bob can make it
>available on his site?
>................
>
>I have the same question, and I will have two batteries
>in the back.
>
>It seems like grounding on the airframe at the back,
>plus a good copper cable or Super-2-CCA FatWire
>http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm also
>running up front, grounded from place to place, would
>be the best solution. Perhaps I'm making this more
>complicated than it needs to be.
>Mickey
>
>At 11:53 06-08-04, Scott Chastain wrote:
>I took Bob Nuckoll's course last fall and am slowly getting through the
>manual. I will have an aft battery installation which presents a special
>problem. I had planned on using the Nuckoll's design for the single point
>grounding system, where the negative lead from the battery is brought up
>to a ground bus on the firewall. There, all avionics from the panel are
>grounded to a "forest" of fast-on
>connectors, and on the forward side of the firewall, the engine is
>grounded along with other components under the cowling. One benefit of
>doing this is to eliminate noise, according to Bob. However, I had not
>planned on having to run two battery leads up to the firewall. It would
>seem silly to add the extra weight by having both the negative and
>positive leads run up that far on an aluminum bird. Has anyone already
>done this to conform with the Bob Nuckoll's
>design? If not, for those of you who are aleady flying with a rear battery
>installation, where have you run the negative lead and where do you ground
>most, if not all, of your panel equipment? Have you encountered noise
>problems by not having the single point ground?
>Thanks!
The rear mounted two-battery grounding diagram was published at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/Z-14_Rear_Bats.pdf
Airplanes have used airframe ground for rear mounted batteries for
nearly 80 years and the vast majority have performed "satisfactorily"
to this day. There is a high probability that if you use airframe
as battery (-) connections for your rear mounted batteries in an
aluminum airplane, you'll be fine . . . especially if you adhere
to the single point ground philosophy for potential victim systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Ammeter/Loadmeter |
> >
> >Bob:
> >
> >What do you mean when you say "The only limitation on the entire field of
> >instrumentation choices is that none of the Z-Figures is friendly to use
> >of the
> >classic minus-0-plus battery ammeter"? I am wiring to Figure Z-10 and where
> >you call for a loadmeter I have installed Van's "classic" -40/0/+40 ammeter.
> >Should I change something? I haven't lit the engine yet.
>
> The ammeter you have was originally intended for installation
> as a battery-ammeter in the historically popular automotive
> electrical system architecture.
>
> You can wire this instrument as an alternator loadmeter
> just keep in mind that it will ALWAYS read zero and above.
> Not a 'bad' thing, it simply tosses off half of the useful
> scale of the instrument. The danger is that some individual
> not familiar with how it's used may believe it to be
> a battery-ammeter based on it's markings . . . and might
> mis-interpret what it's saying. For example, after an hour
> of flight, your loadmeter is going to read present load on
> the alternator which is always a positive value. Another
> pilot might become concerned when what he perceives as
> a battery-ammeter never goes to zero indicating the battery
> is charged. The important thing is that YOU understand
> how it should function so that you can properly interpret
> what it tells you.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>Bob...
>
>
>Why not then just a voltmeter? No shunt required.
>As long as it reads 13.8 - 14.5V you know the alternator is supplying power.
>
>How does a loadmeter keep the B-lead out of the cockpit?.
>The B-lead has to feed the bus. The bus is in the cockpit.
>What am I missing here?
Sure! How about no meters at all? They don't help you fly or
operate the airplane, only troubleshoot the airplane. Since
you don't need to troubleshoot in flight then the active notification
of low voltage (warning light) combined with proper attention
to battery condition is all you'll ever need to comfortably
bore holes in the sky.
Wrong cause-and-effect. Loadmeters don't keep b-leads out of
cockpit, taking the b-lead out of the cockpit necessitates
elimination of the battery ammeter. See chapter on electrical
system in instrumentation. If you really gotta HAVE an ammeter
then loadmeters are as good as any and are less subject to
ambiguous deductions due to lack of understanding. Re: recent
thread concerning dark-n-stormy-night story on generator failure.
But as you've correctly observed, voltmeters are good too . . . but
again, you gotta watch 'em. 95% of pilots in certified ships
are unaware of failure of alternator until the panel goes black
and by then they're all out of options.
By all means, install whatever number of steam or digit gages
strikes your fancy but don't leave the ground without active
notification of low voltage and a confident knowledge of battery
condition with respect to capacity.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
Hi Bob,
Can you point me to a model? I'm in the market for one,
and can only find the portable units.
Thanks,
Mickey
> ... For my money, if I wanted an ELT that REALLY
> works, I'd go for the GPS aided location option as well.
> This ELT broadcasts your exact location which has a lot
> better resolution than satellite based locator system.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "czechsix(at)juno.com" <czechsix(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re:Stall Horn |
>
>> If you need a horn to tell you when your RV is about to quit flying -
>> then
>> you aren't flying enough !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
Now, now...
I didn't mean to start a long thread on the merits of Stall Warning. I agree wholeheartedly
that a stall warning device shouldn't replace good piloting skills
and thorough knowledge of how an airplane handles and feels leading up to (and
through) the stall. When I'm flying any airplane, I don't depend on the stall
warning system to make up for carelessness on my part....my goal is to never
allow myself to get into a situation where the stall warning would need to
alert me of an impending stall that I'm not already well aware of. But...statistics
say that some people get bit by stall/spin accidents year after year.
Some of them were probably careless, ignorant or unfamiliar with the airplane,
but not all of them...a number have been highly experienced pilots flying an
airplane in which they had thousands of hours logged. How many of those statistics
happened in airplanes with stall warning devices vs. those without, I don't
know (i.e. I don't know how much of a safety ben
efit a stall warning system is statistically). Stall warning doesn't guarantee
my safety, but I don't think it means I'm paranoid or inept if I decide to put
it in my airplane. I just think it's nice to have, just in case.
There are other things on my airplane that are nice to have, but not necessary,
like autopilot, attitude indicator (I'm VFR only), a fuel flow meter, a nosewheel,
an electronic engine monitor with alarm, a GPS, etc. None of these devices
should replace good piloting skills, judgement, or careful attention to flying/navigating
the airplane. But all of them have been deemed useful and practical
by ME for making MY flying experience safer and more convenient. I'm sure
some will disagree, which is fine...but this is my airplane, my money and my
butt in the seat, so I get to decide what goes in it and for what reasons :
) Some will assume that my decisions are based on lack of confidence in my flying
abilities, and I don't expect anything I've said here will change their perception
of me, or their perception of themselves that their superior abilities
will never ever allow them get bit...to each their own.
In the case of my stall warning system, I bought a microswitch and small piezo
alarm and rolled my own. I have all of about $5 invested in it right now. I'm
not convinced that spending upwards of $1K for a full-blown AOA system is worth
it for MY goals (although I think AOA would be nice to have!). My original
post was just asking about alternatives for the warning horn because my piezo
alarm sounds, well, a bit more "alarming" than I want it to. I'd like it to
get my attention but not give my passenger a heart attack. I'll take the advice
of several folks and call an aircraft salvage yard...
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring....
Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re:Stall Horn |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Makes perfect sense to me.. In addition to finding a different warning
horn, you might be able to make one you have sound like you want. How
does it sound if you wrap it in a layer of duct tape? Or, how about putting
a 100ohm resistor in series with it?
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
>
>>
>>> If you need a horn to tell you when your RV is about to quit flying -
>>> then
>>> you aren't flying enough !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>
> Now, now...
>
> I didn't mean to start a long thread on the merits of Stall Warning. I
snip
> would be nice to have!). My original post was just asking about
> alternatives for the warning horn because my piezo alarm sounds, well, a
> bit more "alarming" than I want it to. I'd like it to get my attention
> but not give my passenger a heart attack. I'll take the advice of
> several folks and call an aircraft salvage yard...
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D wiring....
>
>
> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | echristley(at)nc.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re:Stall Horn |
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net>
Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:28 pm
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re:Stall Horn
Prather"
>
> Makes perfect sense to me.. In addition to
finding a different
> warninghorn, you might be able to make one you
have sound like you
> want. How
> does it sound if you wrap it in a layer of duct
tape? Or, how
> about putting
> a 100ohm resistor in series with it?
>
> Regards,
>
Here's an idea you can experiment with. The piezo
alarms work by creating an oscillation across a
crystal, right? The frequency is that of the
crystal. What happens if you scratch or drop a
touch of glue onto the crystal to changes its frequency?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | erie <erie(at)shelbyvilledesign.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re:Stall Horn |
Many years ago, as a poor teenager, I often used a soft pencil to add
mass to scanner xtals to lower the freq...
erie
echristley(at)nc.rr.com wrote:
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net>
>Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:28 pm
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re:Stall Horn
>
>
>
>>
>>
>Prather"
>
>
>>
>>Makes perfect sense to me.. In addition to
>>
>>
>finding a different
>
>
>>warninghorn, you might be able to make one you
>>
>>
>have sound like you
>
>
>>want. How
>>does it sound if you wrap it in a layer of duct
>>
>>
>tape? Or, how
>
>
>>about putting
>>a 100ohm resistor in series with it?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>
>Here's an idea you can experiment with. The piezo
>alarms work by creating an oscillation across a
>crystal, right? The frequency is that of the
>crystal. What happens if you scratch or drop a
>touch of glue onto the crystal to changes its frequency?
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jsto1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
FYI, here is a website that evaluated several of the 406 Mhz EPIRBs,
some with built in GPS. McMurdo Ltd had a unit in their booth at
Ohskosh, but nobaby seemed to have been briefed on it availablilty or
cost. Good luck.
http://www.equipped.com/406_beacon_test_toc.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
| Subject: | Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
Bob,
I have questions about the implementation of a keep-warm circuit you
recommend in Chapter 12 of the Connection for filament bulbs. I plan to use
75W Halogen bulbs for Landing & Taxi lights (CreativeAir). How do you
determine what amperage these bulbs will draw at lower voltages? Is there a
way to predict this, or do you just test?
You also mention a DIY keep warm power supply, but I don't see one
described, unless: Is it the solid state dimming control circuit in Fig
12.8 with a fixed resistor set to get the desired voltage per above?
I also did a search for DC-DC converters and found this:
http://www.datel.com/data/power/lsn-d12.pdf. These claim over 80 percent
efficiency, which sounds good. How efficient is the LM317K circuit in
comparison? Are their other circuits you'd recommend for this function?
Thanks,
Dennis Glaeser
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Date: 2004/11/10 Wed AM 10:51:16 EST
Subject: RE: ELT Access
11/10/2004
Hello Dennis, Thank you for your response. It is very passionate, but a bit shy
on logic and facts. Ill comment in pieces below:
<>
We dont know that yet because we have not seen the pertinent documents referenced
by TSO-C91a.
<>
Not every regulatory requirement is spelled out in detail in the FARs themselves.
Something can be a regulatory requirement because it appears in an approval
document for a piece of equipment that is required by regulation to be approved.
<<(and a TSO is NOT a regulation)>>
You are right. A TSO itself is not a regulation, but if a regulation requires an
approved piece of equipment and you are using a TSOd item to show that your
item is indeed approved, then that TSO is fulfilling a regulatory requirement.
Here is FAR Sec 21.601 (b) (4) QUOTE: An article manufactured under a TSO authorization,
an FAA letter of acceptance as described in 21.603(b), or an appliance
manufactured under a letter of TSO design approval described in 21.617 is
an approved article or appliance for the purpose of meeting the regulations of
this chapter that require the article to be approved. UNQUOTE. Does this leave
any doubt in anyones mind regarding the regulatory status of a TSOd piece of
equipment that is fulfilling a regulatory approval requirement?
<>
That is your opinion, not fact, and it is not shared by someone at AOPA who wrote
on this subject. Here is an extract from an email that I received from AOPA.
QUOTE: One of the major changes the FAA made in going from TSO C91 to TSO C91a
was to require a cockpit mounted remote switch to allow the pilot to manually
activate the ELT and as a visual monitor of when the ELT is active. The requirement
is outlined in RTCA/DO-183, Section 2.1.12 and DO-204, Section 2.2.6.UNQUOTE
Unfortunately the person at AOPA who sent me the email was not the original author
of that extract. He had extracted it from some TSO material that he found
at AOPA while searching for an answer to my ELT access question. AOPA does not
have the RTCA documents so they are unable to confirm what the documents say.
<>
Just stating an opinion vehemently does not make it fact.
<>
The reason for the many aircraft that will be found without cockpit control and
access of their ELT is that those installations were made prior to June 21, 1995.
See FAR Sec 91.207 (a) (1). We know that cockpit control and access were
not required prior to that date.
<>
I have no disagreement with what you write there, but for new ELT installations
after June 21, 1995 cockpit control and access of the ELT while airborne may
be a regulatory requirement and Id like to absolutely confirm or deny that fact
by reading the pertinent RTCA documents.
It was never my intent to get sidetracked into semantical discussions regarding
regulatory requirements in general and I apologize to readers for proceeding
down that rabbit trail above. It is just not in my nature to accept hearsay, gossip,
rumor, speculation, opinion, and beliefs when I am looking for facts and
I know that the facts do exist.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMC <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
---------------------------------big snip ---------------------
I have no disagreement with what you write there, but for new ELT
installations after June 21, 1995 cockpit control and access of the ELT
while airborne may be a regulatory requirement and Id like to absolutely
confirm or deny that fact by reading the pertinent RTCA documents.
It was never my intent to get sidetracked into semantical discussions
regarding regulatory requirements in general and I apologize to readers for
proceeding down that rabbit trail above. It is just not in my nature to
accept hearsay, gossip, rumor, speculation, opinion, and beliefs when I am
looking for facts and I know that the facts do exist.
OC
-------------------------------------------
OC - You have aroused my curiosity - just what would be the useful purpose
of requiring or having access to the ELT while airborne? The only reason I
can think of would be for ditching on a oceanic flight, and in that case you
should probably have a PLB or water activated ELT stowed in your life raft.
George in Langley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Olivier Le Carbonnier" <olcdlm(at)laposte.net> |
yes but the answer from man from AngleOffAttack is:
------------------------------
The difference is that our AOA works. If you think about it, the advantage
of the under wing pitot tube is that the airflow is always flowing about
parallel to the under side of the wing. Because of this the airspeed
indication (IAS) is accurate no matter what the angle of attack (AOA).
Conversely, the under wing is a lousy place for an AOA sensor. This is
because the air changes direction way before it reaches the wing and when
it reaches the wing the airflow is about parallel to the wing surface no
matter what the AOA.
Now, if you try to fix this by moving the pitot tube further from the wing
to get into undisturbed air, you may improve the AOA sensing ability
somewhat but the IAS now has errors with changes in AOA. Did you ever
wonder why the AOA probes on Airbus airliners are way ahead of the wing on
the nose of the fuselage? They actually have to be one and one half chord
ahead of the wing to get into undisturbed air.
The beauty of our system is that it senses pressures on the top and bottom
of the wing (aerodynamic sensing) and divides that differential pressure by
the dynamic pressure producing a Cl (coefficient of lift). Those familiar
in the art know that coefficient of lift and AOA vary uniquely with each
other. We avoid the pit falls of both pressure on probe sensing systems
and vane systems. Also you have some redundancy.
Consequently, we sell more AOAs than all the other AOA folks combined. If
you want an AOA that works, let us know. Our AOA is based on sound
aerodynamic principle . Any other would only be a glorified IAS indicator.
----------------------------------------------------
Olivier
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Matt
Prather
Envoy : mercredi 10 novembre 2004 16:33
: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
I'll take this opportunity to correct myself a bit.. Aircraft spruce has a
vane style unit for $545 here:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoartangle.php
It seems they pretty much go up from there. Another option, depending
on how much cool stuff you are going to put in the panel is the Dynon
EFIS. They are having some teething trouble, but I think they'll sort it
out. They offer an AOA pitot probe for $200 (only works with their
EFIS). The total cost would be about $2600 which while a pretty good
value is not cheap.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/efisd10.php
Matt-
>
>
> where ?
>
> Olivier
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Matt
> Prather
> Envoy : mardi 9 novembre 2004 21:19
> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>
>
>
>
> Not cheap... I have seen them start at $600.
>
> MAP
>
>>
>>
>> why not a AOA ?
>>
>> Olivier LC
>> France
>> ICQ#: 82067330
>> sanglier(at)laposte.net
>> http://sangliervolant.chez.tiscali.fr Van's RV-8 n81939 wings
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de
>> czechsix(at)juno.com
>> Envoy : lundi 8 novembre 2004 19:34
>> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
>> Objet : AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in
>> sound to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall
>> vane/tab that I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo
>> alarm from Digikey for something like $1 but it sounds like a fire
>> alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking than I want. Aircraft
>> Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for $740.00. You
>> read that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway, if
>> somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let
>> me know...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Mark Navratil
>> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
>> RV-8A N2D wiring...
>>
>> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
>> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
>
> #4 wire is entirely sufficient for all fat wires in your
> installation. A single braided strap from crankcase to
> firewall ground stud is sufficient. A single 4AWG connection
> between battery (-) and firwall ground stud is next. These
> two wires take care of your fat-wire portion of the ground system.
> Consider use of #4 welding cable for battery (-) and battery (+)
> connections irrespective of what type of wire is choosen for the
> rest of the system.........
>
> You are more at-risk for loss of battery due overly robust
> terminal connections than from connections that are too
> few or too light.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob: When making one's own #4 welding cables for + and - battery
post connections, what do you recommend for shrink down or cover material
that is heat and fire rated for covering the cable located on the engine
side of the FW?
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeEasley(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Hall Effect Sensor and JPI EDM 900 |
I installed my EDM900 in my Lancair. Continental IO-550N, 12V system. My
left mag came with a Hall effect sensor already installed. I snipped off the
connector and used a Molex connector to connect to the wires coming from the JPI
tach feed. At high RPMs, sometimes, not all the time, I get a fluctuating
RPM reading, all the way from 3500 to 0, and then back to normal. JPI
recommended replacing the sensor that came with my engine with the one that came
with
the unit, no surprise there! Replacing the sensor means retiming the mag, and
I'd rather avoid that if it's not the sensor. Could it be the Hall effect
sensor? Or do I have a bad wiring connection somewhere?
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
I would like to suggest that Keep-Alive circuits should probably be
rethought or abandoned. Here's my thinking:
1) These waste energy--typically a couple dozen watts. For reduction of
input surge, using a thermistor or a soft start circuit is easy to do and
wastes no energy.
2) If shock and vibration is the problem--maybe addressing the shock and
vibration mechanically is a better approach.
3) Does anybody have data that says these actually help? I would guess that
for long filament lamps they do... but for halogens--I'm from Missouri.
Get rid of your filament lamps.
Let's discuss this on the list.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father did....
Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his airplane."
--anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> lights |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi |
lights
lights
>
>
>
>I would like to suggest that Keep-Alive circuits should probably be
>rethought or abandoned. Here's my thinking:
>
>1) These waste energy--typically a couple dozen watts. For reduction of
>input surge, using a thermistor or a soft start circuit is easy to do and
>wastes no energy.
How is energy expended to add value to a system a "waste"?
Further, if the system is implemented with dc/dc converters,
the entire drain on the system is under 5 watts and is present
only when the alternator is running (keep alive runs from main
bus only).
>2) If shock and vibration is the problem--maybe addressing the shock and
>vibration mechanically is a better approach.
>3) Does anybody have data that says these actually help? I would guess that
>for long filament lamps they do... but for halogens--I'm from Missouri.
>
> Get rid of your filament lamps.
>
>Let's discuss this on the list.
When the lighting chapter was written (about 10 years ago)
the popular incandescent lamps for OBAM aircraft favored
the classic aircraft and some automotive sealed beam lamps.
The idea for a keep-alive system was derived from laboratory
data I'd seen on lamps wherein maintaining a lamp's OFF temperature
above the brittle/ductile transition temperature provided a 5x
to 20x increase in filament life due to vibration in during
the OFF state.
Modern sealed beams (which use capsuled halogens) and automotive
headlamps using cartridge lamps are already many times more robust
than their ancestors. Due to their very low cost and long life,
no value is added with the $time$ it takes to add a keep-alive
system. Nav light bulbs, particularly the reflector style lamps
were aircraft unique and $20 each retail at the time. Obviously,
those have been eclipsed by modern lamps as well.
We don't talk about Narco Super-Homers . . .
(see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/P1012780.JPG )
. . . . in the certified world
journals and texts any more, non-halogen "aircraft" lamps need
to disappear from tomorrow's texts as well. The next revision
to the lighting chapter will not discuss keep alive systems.
LED nav lights and halogen automotive derivative lamps
for landing and recognition are the value leaders today.
If the HID lamps get to where they can offer similar
visibility, operating speeds, and pricing as the lowly
incandescent lamp, then they may become next year's
value technology.
Now, on might still consider inrush-limiters but not
for the reasons you might suspect. We discovered a transient
noise generation problem on the Bonanzas a couple of years
ago that was triggering the OVM crowbar system in the
B&C regulators when the landing/taxi light systems were
cycled on together. This turns out to be a combination
of long wires to the wings, super heavy contacts of
an "aircraft quality" switch/breaker . . .
( see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/W31_1.jpg )
. . . with contacts that bounce like a golf ball and
generated some amazing noises while working to raise
a cold lamp filament up to operating temperatures.
It was easier to "fix" the regulator to ward of this
new antagonist than to add inrush limiters to calm
the antagonist.
I'll suggest it's a bit early to write off the incandescent
lamp entirely. One of those $5 halogen cartridges has
a strong probability of lasting for as long as anyone
owns their airplane and they don't need pampering.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> |
OC,
The folks who write regulations should be forced to pass a logic test! I
think the bottom line is that ELTs are required to have a cockpit control as
part of their design to comply with the TSO, but the equipment requirements
in the FARs do not specificlly require it be installed (were probably
written before the TSO changed). Since the equipment is there, why not just
install it? I'd still argue that you couldn't be denied an airworthiness
certificate if it is not there, but if the inspector feels otherwise it
would be more hassle than I'd be willing to endure to press the issue.
Discussing regs is often a passionate activity, since they are SO logical
;-)
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: bakerocb(at)cox.net [mailto:bakerocb(at)cox.net]
Subject: ELT Access
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Date: 2004/11/10 Wed AM 10:51:16 EST
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: ELT Access
11/10/2004
Hello Dennis, Thank you for your response. It is very passionate, but a bit
shy on logic and facts. I'll comment in pieces below:
<>
We don't know that yet because we have not seen the pertinent documents
referenced by TSO-C91a.
<>
Not every regulatory requirement is spelled out in detail in the FAR's
themselves. Something can be a regulatory requirement because it appears in
an approval document for a piece of equipment that is required by
regulation to be approved.
<<(and a TSO is NOT a regulation)>>
You are right. A TSO itself is not a regulation, but if a regulation
requires an approved piece of equipment and you are using a TSO'd item to
show that your item is indeed approved, then that TSO is fulfilling a
regulatory requirement.
Here is FAR Sec 21.601 (b) (4) QUOTE: An article manufactured under a TSO
authorization, an FAA letter of acceptance as described in 21.603(b), or an
appliance manufactured under a letter of TSO design approval described in
21.617 is an approved article or appliance for the purpose of meeting the
regulations of this chapter that require the article to be approved.
UNQUOTE. Does this leave any doubt in anyone's mind regarding the
regulatory status of a TSO'd piece of equipment that is fulfilling a
regulatory approval requirement?
<>
That is your opinion, not fact, and it is not shared by someone at AOPA who
wrote on this subject. Here is an extract from an email that I received from
AOPA. QUOTE: One of the major changes the FAA made in going from TSO C91 to
TSO C91a was to require a cockpit mounted remote switch to allow the pilot
to manually activate the ELT and as a visual monitor of when the ELT is
active. The requirement is outlined in RTCA/DO-183, Section 2.1.12 and
DO-204, Section 2.2.6.UNQUOTE
Unfortunately the person at AOPA who sent me the email was not the original
author of that extract. He had extracted it from some TSO material that he
found at AOPA while searching for an answer to my ELT access question. AOPA
does not have the RTCA documents so they are unable to confirm what the
documents say.
<>
Just stating an opinion vehemently does not make it fact.
<>
The reason for the many aircraft that will be found without cockpit control
and access of their ELT is that those installations were made prior to June
21, 1995. See FAR Sec 91.207 (a) (1). We know that cockpit control and
access were not required prior to that date.
<>
I have no disagreement with what you write there, but for new ELT
installations after June 21, 1995 cockpit control and access of the ELT
while airborne may be a regulatory requirement and I'd like to absolutely
confirm or deny that fact by reading the pertinent RTCA documents.
It was never my intent to get sidetracked into semantical discussions
regarding regulatory requirements in general and I apologize to readers for
proceeding down that rabbit trail above. It is just not in my nature to
accept hearsay, gossip, rumor, speculation, opinion, and beliefs when I am
looking for facts and I know that the facts do exist.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Strobe power supply grounding |
I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906
strobe power supply in my RV, and the installation
instructions say, with emphasis:
Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to
chassis ground (GND) to reduce radio interference.
Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire,
wouldn't it actually cause *more* noise to do this, since
the device would be grounded in two different places?
Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically
isolate the baseplate, and run a ground wire from it
back to the airplane common ground. Am I missing
something here?
Thanks for your advice.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>
> >
> > #4 wire is entirely sufficient for all fat wires in your
> > installation. A single braided strap from crankcase to
> > firewall ground stud is sufficient. A single 4AWG connection
> > between battery (-) and firwall ground stud is next. These
> > two wires take care of your fat-wire portion of the ground system.
> > Consider use of #4 welding cable for battery (-) and battery (+)
> > connections irrespective of what type of wire is choosen for the
> > rest of the system.........
> >
> > You are more at-risk for loss of battery due overly robust
> > terminal connections than from connections that are too
> > few or too light.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> Bob: When making one's own #4 welding cables for + and - battery
>post connections, what do you recommend for shrink down or cover material
>that is heat and fire rated for covering the cable located on the engine
>side of the FW?
There are no "heat and fire rated" materials for this task.
There are materials called out on the type certificate for
a particular airplane that become "approved" because they're
on the bill of materials for that airplane . . . this says
nothing about how the materials were selected or what ratings
were deemed significant when the material was selected.
For your OBAM aircraft, I recommend a double-wall, self-sealing
heat shrink by Alpha or 3M. You may be able to buy single chunks
of this material (1/2" original size) from a local electrical contractor
supply house. This stuff is pretty nice because it is mechanically
very rigid when it sets (mimics the insulation support feature of
a PIDG terminal) and it seals the joint at the same time (better
than a PIDG terminal).
See EPS-300 and EPS-200 materials at:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T043/1202.pdf
Now, suppose you've got some 1/2" regular heatshrink available
and you don't want to order a $7.00 + shipping piece of
internal melting wall tubing just to use 3" of the 4'
on your airplane. Two layers of plain vanilla heatshrink
will dress up the joints nicely. Make the second layer
1/4" to 1/2" longer than first layer and center it on the
first layer so that it totally covers. They'll still be
working just fine the day your airplane is scrapped.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Strobe power supply grounding |
I have the same power supply. I followed the directions and have no noise.
That's all I can offer.
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8 23.5 hrs.
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:31 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
>
> -->
>
> I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906 strobe power
> supply in my RV, and the installation instructions say, with emphasis:
>
> Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to chassis
> ground (GND) to reduce radio interference.
>
> Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire,
> wouldn't it actually cause *more* noise to do this, since the
> device would be grounded in two different places?
>
> Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically
> isolate the baseplate, and run a ground wire from it back to
> the airplane common ground. Am I missing something here?
>
> Thanks for your advice.
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Strobe power supply grounding |
Hi Larry,
That's good info. I searched for 'strobe' on your site
but didn't find anything. Can you tell me where you
mounted your strobe power supply, and where you put
your "central" ground?
Best regards,
Mickey
At 20:02 11-11-04, Larry Bowen wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>
>I have the same power supply. I followed the directions and have no noise.
>That's all I can offer.
>
>-
>Larry Bowen, RV-8 23.5 hrs.
>Larry(at)BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:31 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
>>
>> -->
>>
>> I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906 strobe power
>> supply in my RV, and the installation instructions say, with emphasis:
>>
>> Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to chassis
>> ground (GND) to reduce radio interference.
>>
>> Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire,
>> wouldn't it actually cause *more* noise to do this, since the
>> device would be grounded in two different places?
>>
>> Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically
>> isolate the baseplate, and run a ground wire from it back to
>> the airplane common ground. Am I missing something here?
>>
>> Thanks for your advice.
>>
-----End of Original Message-----
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Strobe power supply grounding |
I can't find it on my site either!
It's mounted behind the rear baggage area. I used some .063 plate to make a
platform to go from the middle rib across to the lower longeron. The power
supply bolts to that platform. The bare wires from the three strobe cables
are braided together and crimped with a ring connector. It's secured to one
of the bolts holding the plate down.
I thought I took a picture. I'll try to find it.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:22 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
>
> -->
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> That's good info. I searched for 'strobe' on your site but
> didn't find anything. Can you tell me where you mounted your
> strobe power supply, and where you put your "central" ground?
>
> Best regards,
> Mickey
>
> At 20:02 11-11-04, Larry Bowen wrote:
> -----Start of Original Message-----
> >-->
> >
> >I have the same power supply. I followed the directions and
> have no noise.
> >That's all I can offer.
> >
> >-
> >Larry Bowen, RV-8 23.5 hrs.
> >Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> >http://BowenAero.com
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:31 AM
> >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
> >>
> >> -->
> >>
> >> I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906 strobe
> power supply in
> >> my RV, and the installation instructions say, with emphasis:
> >>
> >> Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to
> chassis ground
> >> (GND) to reduce radio interference.
> >>
> >> Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire, wouldn't it
> >> actually cause *more* noise to do this, since the device would be
> >> grounded in two different places?
> >>
> >> Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically isolate the
> >> baseplate, and run a ground wire from it back to the
> airplane common
> >> ground. Am I missing something here?
> >>
> >> Thanks for your advice.
> >>
> -----End of Original Message-----
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Glen Matejcek"
<>
11/11/2004
Hello Glen, Thanks for your input. My experience has been similar to yours -- many
sources pretty sure of the requirement, but none of them able to identify
or produce the specific source of that requirement.
I know the documents are available from RTCA for cash, but there are three possible
documents in play, DO-182, DO-183, and DO-204. I didn't want to pay for all
three -- much rather spend the cash for beer and avgas -- not necessarily in
that order and definitely not in combination. Hence my request to this group
for a free look.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: The List Fund Raiser - Great Gifts! |
Matt, do you have a Paypal account? If not, I can have you ding my business
credit card. What's your pleasure?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fw : Understanding strange LVWM behaviour |
Bob,
Hope you won't mind my posting a copy of my previous message about my LVWM
mystery, as it may have got through unnoticed.
Any suggestions as to where to direct the investigation ?
If necessary I can resend the diagram pictures.
Thanks in advance
Best regards,
Gilles
===================================================
Hi Bob,
This is off-list because of the attachment.
We started our engine last week. Everything electric worked beautifully
thanks to your help and knowledge.
There is only one minor bug I'm unable to fix.
The engine is a Rotax 914. The circuit is wired as per figure Z 16 with an
auxiliary battery, an auxiliary battery management module from Eric Jones,
and a low voltage warning module AEC 9005-201 for the aux battery.
The low voltage warning module is controlled by a small relay to avoid
constant illumination of the annunciator when the power is off.
For reasons unknown to me I can't seem to have this aux battery Low Volts
light work as expected (the module works OK on the bench).
- When the master is ON (engine OFF), the Main Bat light works, but the Aux
Bat light doesn't. I was expecting to have both lights illuminate when their
respective battery voltage is below 13 V.
- When the E-Bus switch is ON and the Master OFF, the Aux Bat light
illuminates but not the Main Bat light, which is normal.
- During the tests I noticed the Aux Bat light illuminates briefly when I
switch the Master OFF.
What am I missing ?
Thanks for your help
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<<....skip....If you have a list of RTCA documents you'd like to see,
post it and I'll see if I can put my hands on them. Bob>>
11/11/2004
Hello Bob Nuckolls, Thanks for the offer -- that was the object of my original
request. I am led to believe that the ELT access requirement would be found in
DO-182, DO-183, or DO-204. Thanks for your help.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | CH Products Control Stick Switches Electrical Specifications |
There has been discussions about the CH Products control sticks (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/aircraft.html) on the newsgroups lately. I have two of them, but there was a question about what the switch ratings were. I contacted Kevin Williamson of CH
Products and he was kind enough to supply me with a set of sample switches (from
Omron) and the part numbers thereof.
I downloaded the complete data sheet from the web, reviewed the specifications
and then called the Omron factory representative. There are a few minor errors
in the datasheet available on the web, so the rep emailed me the revised (corrected)
sheets. I
also discussed with him the specifications listed and got clarification, although
it turned out that when I received the revised data sheets, the specification
is very clear now.
The bottom line is that the electrical rating for all three different switches
is: 1-50mA, at 5-24V.
The explanation for the ratings is:
1. The lower values (1 mA at 5V) are to make sure that the switch sees enough energy
when switching to keep the contacts clean. Any lower values would not guarantee
that the contacts will always make proper contact over the life of the
switch. If for
some reason the load being switched is too low, a resistor could be added in parallel
with the load to increase the current to at least 1 mA.
2. The higher values (50 mA at 24V) are the maximum values that should be switched
that will not damage the switch. Switching any higher loads will risk damaging
the contacts - either welding them shut or warping them or causing excessive
arc damage - and
will certainly shorten the life of the switch.
3. These ratings are for a resistive load, so if they are to be used with a relay
or motor the contacts MUST be protected with a diode or other type of snubber
network!
Of course, the manufacturer always has a margin in the design so if one chooses
to switch 55mA at 14V (for instance), the switch will probably still have a reasonable
life. However, pushing them to 100 mA or more will definitely shorten
the life and may
result in a catastrophic failure at some point.
These switches are rated for a lot of actuations so their use in an airplane should
be no problem. The hat switches are rated for 300,000 operations (minimum),
the switches on the top face of the stick are rated for 100,000 operations
(minimum) and the
trigger (typically used for push-to-talk) is rated for 1,000,000 operations (minimum).
To put these numbers in perspective, let's assume you make one flight every day
for ten years. For each flight you could use the hat switch to trim the airplane
82 times in each direction, you could actuate the flaps (assuming that is
what you use the two
gray switches on the top of the stick for) 27 times each up and down and you could
push-to-talk 274 times.
I am satisfied that the switches used are as robust as you will find and the ratings
are adequate for the task. Just don't go overboard on what you connect
direct to the switches and your CH Products control stick will have a long and
happy life!
Dick Tasker
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> behaviour |
| Subject: | Re: Fw : Understanding strange LVWM |
behaviour
behaviour
>Bob,
>
>Hope you won't mind my posting a copy of my previous message about my LVWM
>mystery, as it may have got through unnoticed.
>Any suggestions as to where to direct the investigation ?
>If necessary I can resend the diagram pictures.
>
>Thanks in advance
>Best regards,
>Gilles
No problem.
>===================================================
>We started our engine last week. Everything electric worked beautifully
>thanks to your help and knowledge.
>
>There is only one minor bug I'm unable to fix.
>
>The engine is a Rotax 914. The circuit is wired as per figure Z 16 with an
>auxiliary battery, an auxiliary battery management module from Eric Jones,
>and a low voltage warning module AEC 9005-201 for the aux battery.
>The low voltage warning module is controlled by a small relay to avoid
>constant illumination of the annunciator when the power is off.
I'm lost. I don't understand why you have a second auxiliary battery
management module installed along with the low voltage warning module.
Aux battery management is built into the AEC9005 product.
>For reasons unknown to me I can't seem to have this aux battery Low Volts
>light work as expected (the module works OK on the bench).
>
>- When the master is ON (engine OFF), the Main Bat light works, but the Aux
>Bat light doesn't. I was expecting to have both lights illuminate when their
>respective battery voltage is below 13 V.
I'm not sure I'm visualizing your wiring correctly. If you
tried to send me some attachements in a direct e-mail, I don't
see them in either my old in-files or trash-files. Try sending
them again to the b.nuckolls_at_cox.net account.
>- When the E-Bus switch is ON and the Master OFF, the Aux Bat light
>illuminates but not the Main Bat light, which is normal.
>
>- During the tests I noticed the Aux Bat light illuminates briefly when I
>switch the Master OFF.
I'll have to see your schematics to be of any real assistance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Giffen A. Marr" <GAMarr(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Antenna Ground Planes on Carbon Fiber |
I am getting ready to install the ground plane for my transponder antenna
mounted on the bottom outside on a Lancair IV-P. The manual calls for a 12
inch round ground plane installed on the inside of the aircraft, between the
gear legs. A week or so ago, there was a post that said that the ground
plane for the transponder should be 5.2 inches in diameter. I have two
questions:
Is there anything to be gained by going to a 12 inch ground plane as
opposed to the 5.2 inch diameter specified in the post and does it make any
difference on a carbon fiber aircraft whether the ground plane is located on
the inside or outside of the skin?
Giff Marr
LIV-P/20B 28%
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fw : Understanding strange LVWM behaviour |
Bob,
Thank you for your help.
...... a low voltage warning module AEC 9005-201 for the aux battery.
> >The low voltage warning module is controlled by a small relay to avoid
> >constant illumination of the annunciator when the power is off.
>
> I'm lost. I don't understand why you have a second auxiliary battery
> management module installed along with the low voltage warning module.
> Aux battery management is built into the AEC9005 product.
There is only one battery management module, and it works as expected.
The AEC 9005-201 doesn't have a battery management capablility but only a
low voltage warning feature capable of switching an annunciator.
I'd like to have it monitor the aux battery voltage.
......... Try sending
> them again to the b.nuckolls_at_cox.net account.
>
I'm sending them again.
Best regards,
Gilles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
< ... For my money, if I wanted an ELT that REALLY
> works, I'd go for the GPS aided location option as well.
> This ELT broadcasts your exact location which has a lot
> better resolution than satellite based locator system.>>
11/1/2004
Hello Mickey, I don't think that a practical, affordable, GPS reporting, TSO-C126
approved, 406 Mhz ELT compatible with a 12 volt airplane exists. I'd love to
be proved wrong. Let us know what you find.
You can start your search here <<http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Beacons/typeApprovedListByManufacturer.htm>> and move on to the various manufacturers listed.
Be very precise / meticulous in your search -- you are entering a swamp with many
diverting alligators. Realize that you are looking for an ELT, not just a beacon.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
Try http://www.artex.net/3_freq_beacons.html, bring your wallet.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 406 Mhz GPS ELT
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
< ... For my money, if I wanted an ELT that REALLY
> works, I'd go for the GPS aided location option as well.
> This ELT broadcasts your exact location which has a lot
> better resolution than satellite based locator system.>>
11/1/2004
Hello Mickey, I don't think that a practical, affordable, GPS reporting,
TSO-C126 approved, 406 Mhz ELT compatible with a 12 volt airplane
exists. I'd love to be proved wrong. Let us know what you find.
You can start your search here
<<http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Beacons/typeApprovedListByManufacturer.ht
m>> and move on to the various manufacturers listed.
Be very precise / meticulous in your search -- you are entering a swamp
with many diverting alligators. Realize that you are looking for an ELT,
not just a beacon.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <beecho(at)beecho.org> |
I found the worthless harness and will send it. I did not get any jacks
from you because I told you that I had already installed them and would not
need more.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 406 Mhz GPS ELT
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
< ... For my money, if I wanted an ELT that REALLY
> works, I'd go for the GPS aided location option as well.
> This ELT broadcasts your exact location which has a lot
> better resolution than satellite based locator system.>>
11/1/2004
Hello Mickey, I don't think that a practical, affordable, GPS reporting,
TSO-C126 approved, 406 Mhz ELT compatible with a 12 volt airplane exists.
I'd love to be proved wrong. Let us know what you find.
You can start your search here
<<http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Beacons/typeApprovedListByManufacturer.htm>>
and move on to the various manufacturers listed.
Be very precise / meticulous in your search -- you are entering a swamp with
many diverting alligators. Realize that you are looking for an ELT, not just
a beacon.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au> |
| Subject: | Strobe Ground Circuit Question |
Bob et al
I have a Kuntzleman Strobe and in reading the 'Noise Trouble Shooting
Guide' supplied with the kit, it says QUOTE "The ground path is very,
very important. The strobe circuit draws high current through the
ground circuit." END QUOTE
Since I have always understood the current is the same in both the feed
and ground circuits, could someone please enlighten me as to what is
meant by the 'high current through the ground circuit'. I don't have
the unit completely installed yet so don't have any noise problems, just
trying to understand !
Thanks all
Kingsley Hurst
Europa Mono Classic 281 in Oz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
Eric and Bob,
Thanks for the responses. The Taxi and Landing lights are the only filament
bulbs I plan to have, and they will be halogen. The good news is that they
are cheap and do seem to last a long time. I can't remember the last time I
replaced one on a car. The hassle of replacing it is worse than the part
cost. So scratch the keep warm circuit.
Minimizing inrush current seems like a good idea, so I'll look into
thermistors and soft start circuits - any pointers would be welcomed of
course!
Dennis Glaeser
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe power supply grounding |
>
>
>I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906
>strobe power supply in my RV, and the installation
>instructions say, with emphasis:
>
>Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to
>chassis ground (GND) to reduce radio interference.
>
>Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire,
>wouldn't it actually cause *more* noise to do this, since
>the device would be grounded in two different places?
>
>Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically
>isolate the baseplate, and run a ground wire from it
>back to the airplane common ground. Am I missing
>something here?
>
>Thanks for your advice.
Many electronic devices for aircraft have separate
power and chassis ground connections. The chassis
ground is for RFI/Shielding and the power ground is
separated so that the designer can utilize a remote
power ground IF the system calls for it. In this
case, the case gets grounded to airframe in a metal
airplane and, as we've already discussed, it's okay
to get your power ground remotely for the strobes,
pitot heat, landing, taxi and nav lights. Where
major benefits are realized is for single point,
firewall grounding of potential victims (mostly
panel mounted stuff).
Take the strobe supply ground to one of the same
bolts that holds the strobe to the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Bowen" <Larry(at)BowenAero.com> |
| Subject: | Strobe power supply grounding |
Mickey,
Here is a pic of the strobe power pak.
http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/01/ap_servo_strobe.html
-
Larry Bowen
Larry(at)BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:22 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
>
> -->
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> That's good info. I searched for 'strobe' on your site but
> didn't find anything. Can you tell me where you mounted your
> strobe power supply, and where you put your "central" ground?
>
> Best regards,
> Mickey
>
> At 20:02 11-11-04, Larry Bowen wrote:
> -----Start of Original Message-----
> >-->
> >
> >I have the same power supply. I followed the directions and
> have no noise.
> >That's all I can offer.
> >
> >-
> >Larry Bowen, RV-8 23.5 hrs.
> >Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> >http://BowenAero.com
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:31 AM
> >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
> >>
> >> -->
> >>
> >> I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906 strobe
> power supply in
> >> my RV, and the installation instructions say, with emphasis:
> >>
> >> Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to
> chassis ground
> >> (GND) to reduce radio interference.
> >>
> >> Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire, wouldn't it
> >> actually cause *more* noise to do this, since the device would be
> >> grounded in two different places?
> >>
> >> Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically isolate the
> >> baseplate, and run a ground wire from it back to the
> airplane common
> >> ground. Am I missing something here?
> >>
> >> Thanks for your advice.
> >>
> -----End of Original Message-----
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
>From: glaesers (glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com)
>Minimizing inrush current seems like a good idea, so I'll look into
>thermistors and soft start circuits - any pointers would be welcomed of
>course! Dennis Glaeser
The standard method of limiting current inrush is with a Thermometrics
Inrush Current Limiters.
Digikey stocks these in a variety of forms.
There are particulars like how much you want to limit the current and how
much reduction in current you can accept (there will be some).
If you don't want to get too technical: For a 35W lamp--use Digikey KC004L,
for a 50W use a KC003L.
Remember that these get hot and are supposed to get hot. Don't try to cool
them off!--in fact they should be protected from cooling.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
Ouch! Looks like I'll be installing a regular ELT,
and buying a "handheld" 406 Mhz device. Sure hope
these come down in price soon.
>Try http://www.artex.net/3_freq_beacons.html, bring your wallet.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky) |
| Subject: | RV 8 roll Trio roll servo install |
you guys with the tru track servos have it made. Seems the Trio/Air Nav roll
servo's possible arm orientations and sheer overall size won't allow for installation
in there.
The only place I see it will fit without modifying the floor panels is up front
of the spar on the right side.
Anyone else able to fit the Trio servo where Larry but his Try Track servo?
>
> Mickey,
>
> Here is a pic of the strobe power pak.
>
> http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/01/ap_servo_strobe.html
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:22 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
> >
> > -->
> >
> > Hi Larry,
> >
> > That's good info. I searched for 'strobe' on your site but
> > didn't find anything. Can you tell me where you mounted your
> > strobe power supply, and where you put your "central" ground?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Mickey
> >
> > At 20:02 11-11-04, Larry Bowen wrote:
> > -----Start of Original Message-----
> > >-->
> > >
> > >I have the same power supply. I followed the directions and
> > have no noise.
> > >That's all I can offer.
> > >
> > >-
> > >Larry Bowen, RV-8 23.5 hrs.
> > >Larry(at)BowenAero.com
> > >http://BowenAero.com
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:31 AM
> > >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe power supply grounding
> > >>
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >> I'm installing a Nova Electronics Superpak 906 strobe
> > power supply in
> > >> my RV, and the installation instructions say, with emphasis:
> > >>
> > >> Note: The power supply baseplate must be connected to
> > chassis ground
> > >> (GND) to reduce radio interference.
> > >>
> > >> Since there is also a ground wire with the power wire, wouldn't it
> > >> actually cause *more* noise to do this, since the device would be
> > >> grounded in two different places?
> > >>
> > >> Seems to me like it would it be better to electrically isolate the
> > >> baseplate, and run a ground wire from it back to the
> > airplane common
> > >> ground. Am I missing something here?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for your advice.
> > >>
> > -----End of Original Message-----
> >
> > --
> > Mickey Coggins
> > http://www.rv8.ch/
> > #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
> >
> >
> > =========
> > =========
> > Matronics Forums.
> > =========
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> > =========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lakemichigancollege.edu> |
Hi Folks,
In my Glastar, I have two batteries about 10' aft of the firewall. I have
each separately connected to the firewall ground stud, the other side of which
connects to the engine via a grounding strap. Other than weight reduction,
is there any advantage to moving those battery (-) fat wire ground points off
the common ground stud and further aft, to the cage itself. I can't think of
any electrical advantage, but that's why I ask the experts. Thanks for any
input.
Bill Yamokoski, N4970Y
415 hrs on the EggenSoob
still getting intermittent reports that my radio is unreadable, still wondering
why
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Hi Folks,
> In my Glastar, I have two batteries about 10' aft of the firewall. I
> have each separately connected to the firewall ground stud, the other
> side of which connects to the engine via a grounding strap. Other than
> weight reduction, is there any advantage to moving those battery (-) fat
> wire ground points off the common ground stud and further aft, to the
> cage itself. I can't think of any electrical advantage, but that's why
> I ask the experts.
No, what you have is the best from an electrical perspective.
> Thanks for any input.
>Bill Yamokoski, N4970Y
>415 hrs on the EggenSoob
>still getting intermittent reports that my radio is unreadable, still
>wondering why
I'm assuming you've checked antenna SWR. What kind of antenna and
were installed. Intermittent complaints can be associated with
"holes" in radiation pattern for the antenna. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna_Pattern.gif
A pilot trying to talk on this antenna might get a lot of
otherwise unexplainable complaints. Does your radio
have a "sidetone" . . . can you hear yourself and do you
always hear yourself well in the headsets?
Next time ask about "unreadable" Do they mean strong signal
but distorted audio or weak signal -AND- audio?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe Ground Circuit Question |
>
>
>Bob et al
>
>I have a Kuntzleman Strobe and in reading the 'Noise Trouble Shooting
>Guide' supplied with the kit, it says QUOTE "The ground path is very,
>very important. The strobe circuit draws high current through the
>ground circuit." END QUOTE
>
>Since I have always understood the current is the same in both the feed
>and ground circuits, could someone please enlighten me as to what is
>meant by the 'high current through the ground circuit'. I don't have
>the unit completely installed yet so don't have any noise problems, just
>trying to understand !
They're simply quoting Kirchoff's law that says for every
electron going into the system, there'a a companion electron
exiting the system . . . I.e. same current in both supply
and ground return lines. What you quoted from the instruction
manual is a lousy attempt to explain something . . . I wonder
if the writer really understands what he's trying to write about.
For the composite airplane, you'll need both power and ground return
lines to the strobe. Take your (-) power lead from strobe to
on of the mounting bolts for the case then come off that same
bolt with the ground lead to your single point ground. Run ground
and plus leads together for as far as practical before they separate
to route to switch and ground stud.
If you have a noise problem after doing this, then a filter
AT the STROBE supply is called for . . . let's cross that
bridge as we come to it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
The reality of the 121.5/243 ELT system is that they will begin to degrade
in 2006 (the Russians aren't launching anymore of these satellites). The old
system is OFFLINE Feb 2009.
Does anyone have a clear description of what is required in OBAM aircraft as
far as 406 MHz Emergency Locator Thingies (or whatever)?
My guess is not much.
There are many more nautical 406 MHz locators. The ACR GlobalFix 406 EPIRB
http://store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/globalfix.html can be bought for under
$850 in quantity of one. It is possibly to internet together a Buyer's Club
to purchase a pallet of these if they are suitable for OBAM aircraft use.
Let's see what the price might be and any technical issues before
proceeding.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: GMC
<>
11/12/2004
Hello George, Thanks for your question. Now for a round about answer.
I have a very low regard for the investment to return benefit ratio of our presently
required ELT's. I felt that they were unwisely forced upon us by the US
Congress in a knee jerk reaction to the loss of one of their members in a plane
crash in Alaska. So as I was building my airplane I wanted minimal ELT impact.
I had my professionally built instrument panel built with no remote ELT control
panel.
After I purchased my ELT, which included a remote control panel, and got ready
to install the ELT without the control panel, I decided to find out if this would
be acceptable to the FAA. My research generated a whole bunch of hearsay,
gossip, rumor, speculation, opinions, beliefs, etc. indicating that the remote
control panel was required, but I could not nail down the specifics of that requirement.
So I made a last minute install of the control panel in a manner that was acceptable
to me, but I wasn't entirely happy because the remote panel installation
was not part of my overall design concept.
Came the time of my very first test flight and I could not fly because every time
I keyed my number one VHF communication radio the ELT was activated. I was
able to shut down the ELT with the remote panel switch and taxi back to my hangar.
I disconnected the ELT and flew without it (this is legal) for that flight.
Before my second flight I moved the ELT antenna a bit further away from the
number one VHF communication antenna and rotated the ELT antenna ninety degrees.
This solved that inadvertant ELT activation problem.
Several weeks later I was returning to the airport and using my number two VHF
communication radio for the very first time (it had been off to Garmin for repair).
My ELT was activated when I made my very first transmission on tower frequency.
This was very disruptive, but I was able to shut my ELT down very quickly
with the remote panel switch. This particular activation scenario has never
happened again.
When I performed my first annual inspection of the ELT (required by FAR Sec 91.207
(d)) I found the remote switch to be pretty useful.
One of our local Lancair 360 builders had inadvertant ELT activiation that he attributed
to VHF communication wiring being in proximity to some ELT wiring. His
remote ELT control switch was useful in shutting down his ELT.
So I am a convert -- if one must have an ELT then the current regulatory requirement
(I believe that requirement exists even though I have not yet seen it with
my own eyes) for pilot access and control from the cockpit is a good thing.
I hope this answers your question.
OC
PS: I am not philosophically opposed to an ELT that would justify the return on
the investment. I think that a compatible (with our 12 volt airplanes), practical,
affordable, 406 Mhz ELT, preferably with GPS location capability, would
be a great thing. If it exists, I can't find it.
PPS: In anticipation of a forced landing (crash) and survival situation (been there, done that) one should always have with them a portable handheld VHF radio with fresh / unused batteries (don't depend upon old rechargeable batteries). Some may find great comfort in also carrying a 406 Mhz EPIRB. See <<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/epirb.htm>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Yamokoski" <yamokosk(at)lakemichigancollege.edu> |
>
>Hi Folks,
> I can't think of any electrical advantage, but that's why
> I ask the experts.
No, what you have is the best from an electrical perspective.
Thanks very much.
I'm assuming you've checked antenna SWR.
That was one of the first things checked a couple of years ago
What kind of antenna and
were installed. Intermittent complaints can be associated with
"holes" in radiation pattern for the antenna. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna_Pattern.gif
A pilot trying to talk on this antenna might get a lot of
otherwise unexplainable complaints.
I have a copper strip dipole mounted in the vertical stabilizer. The strip is
not exactly vertical....it pretty much parallels the slope of the leading edge
of the vertical stabilizer
Does your radio
have a "sidetone" . . . can you hear yourself and do you
always hear yourself well in the headsets?
MicroAir 760. It does have a sidetone, which I have turned down to the point where
I can hear myself consistently and well in the headsets. At the factory
setting there was a strong "echo" effect in the headsets. This went away when
I turned the sidetone down a bit.
Next time ask about "unreadable" Do they mean strong signal
but distorted audio or weak signal -AND- audio?
The signal is strong but distorted
Would there be much point in trying a different antenna?
Thanks for all the help
Bill Yamokoski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SportAV8R(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
Eric_ we'd probably want to work out an impact-activation feature for the ELT (rather
than water immersion or manual "on" only, right?
-Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
On Nov 12, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
>
> The reality of the 121.5/243 ELT system is that they will begin to
> degrade
> in 2006 (the Russians aren't launching anymore of these satellites).
> The old
> system is OFFLINE Feb 2009.
>
> Does anyone have a clear description of what is required in OBAM
> aircraft as
> far as 406 MHz Emergency Locator Thingies (or whatever)?
The real problem is not whether a 406MHz EPIRB would be suitable and
would help people to find you should you go down. That they do very
well and certainly meet the spirit of the law. The problem is whether
or not they meet the letter of the law which, as we know, has nothing
to do with actually getting the job done.
The 121.5MHz/243MHz ELT which does such a poor job of helping people
find you meets the letter of the law and makes FAA types happy whether
or not it actually performs the desired function. I don't know whether
any of the very fine and inexpensive 406MHz EPIRBs available from
various sources for somewhat reasonable prices also would. Guessing
from experience with the FAA I would have to guess that they do not
since they cost way too little to have the FAA certification surcharge
built into their price.
So, if it doesn't cost wildly too much, it probably does not have FAA
approval.
And, yes, I am jaded.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
At 09:32 AM 11/12/04, you wrote:
>The 121.5MHz/243MHz ELT which does such a poor job of helping people
>find you meets the letter of the law and makes FAA types happy whether
>or not it actually performs the desired function. I don't know whether
>any of the very fine and inexpensive 406MHz EPIRBs available from
>various sources for somewhat reasonable prices also would. Guessing
>from experience with the FAA I would have to guess that they do not
>since they cost way too little to have the FAA certification surcharge
>built into their price.
So, you buy an inexpensive 406 MHz EPIRB with built in GPS, and two cheap
121.5 ELT's off EBAY.
Put new batteries in on of the ELT and mount it in the airplane. Salvage
the impact switch from the second, hack it into the manual "on" switch of
the EPIRB. Tuck it in a box that just happens to be the right size to
hold it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brianl(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
On Nov 12, 2004, at 1:57 PM, Richard Riley wrote:
>
>
> At 09:32 AM 11/12/04, you wrote:
>> The 121.5MHz/243MHz ELT which does such a poor job of helping people
>> find you meets the letter of the law and makes FAA types happy whether
>> or not it actually performs the desired function. I don't know
>> whether
>> any of the very fine and inexpensive 406MHz EPIRBs available from
>> various sources for somewhat reasonable prices also would. Guessing
>> from experience with the FAA I would have to guess that they do not
>> since they cost way too little to have the FAA certification surcharge
>> built into their price.
>
> So, you buy an inexpensive 406 MHz EPIRB with built in GPS, and two
> cheap
> 121.5 ELT's off EBAY.
>
> Put new batteries in on of the ELT and mount it in the airplane.
> Salvage
> the impact switch from the second, hack it into the manual "on" switch
> of
> the EPIRB. Tuck it in a box that just happens to be the right size
> to
> hold it.
That seems like quite a sensible approach! OTOH, I would tend to want
to disable the "operational" ELT to keep it from generating false
alerts. The remote control switch on the panel that has positions
"off/arm/on" might prove to be useful for that purpose.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl(at)lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good
citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe power supply grounding |
Thanks a lot for the clarification.
I'm just starting my wiring, and it is coming along
well, mainly thanks to all I've learned from your
book and the list. I'm really enjoying it.
Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=YyVgDmZaNVrvg7P+8Pp4siUvND57e4ryYX3qO6RN37/8v1Wk7b0IKw9eHjzGr2qny2XuLdILrm/boVJWQuEZiYWhLgYRRRCWmmJDPjHAV2Oq5+FqhMxH6EDQQvxQiRmjH5o4ao7mNLmXDfcH0eKz86ZWiRotADQnNNN9FyCuj5s;
| From: | D Fritz <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
Quick question about Halogens: How well do they survive in a wig-wag setup? is
the constant on and off a problem for these bulbs?
On a related note, has anyone looked at using clear UltraBrite LEDs as recognition
lights? Do these do well with a wig-wag setup? This site is marketing a
"taxi" light combined with a strobe that may prove interesting in recognition:
https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1541956839198eb/shopdata/index.shopscript
Dan Fritz
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on pop-7.dnv.wideopenwest.com
What the heck, lets get a bit technical (I'm an Aero Engr - so you may have
to take it slow ;-)
You seem to have selected thermistors rated for about twice the amperage for
the light.
Based on that, for a 75W bulb I'd use the KC022L. Now since it won't be
operating at I-max, the resistance won't be the min value (.02 ohms). So
for argument's sake, lets use .03 ohms. That means a voltage drop of .39 (I
used 13V for all calculations). 3% doesn't seem so bad.
Regarding the inrush current - As the thermistor rated current goes up the
initial resistance goes down (some dumb law of physics no doubt). The
KC022L's resistance (0.7 ohms) is less than half the bulb's (about 2 ohms).
So the bigger the bulb the higher the initial current. How much initial
resistance is enough? I guess anything is better than nothing.
I'm thinking that limiting the inrush current is as much about being kind to
the whole electrical system as it is about bulb life - am I out in left
field on that? Anyway, they're cheap enough to try.
It's wierd to think of something getting hot and going down in resistance -
kind of like nichrome wire in an inverse universe!
Thanks for your help,
Dennis
------------------------
There are particulars like how much you want to limit the current and how
much reduction in current you can accept (there will be some).
If you don't want to get too technical: For a 35W lamp--use Digikey KC004L,
for a 50W use a KC003L.
Remember that these get hot and are supposed to get hot. Don't try to cool
them off!--in fact they should be protected from cooling.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
---------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
Seems like it would make sense to certify an impact sensor that could
activate the locator of your choice. Then the low volume switch would be the
only piece subject to aviation prices and the locator could take advantage
of the economies of scale and technical improvements that non-aviation
markets enjoy. But no, that would never work. Never mind...
Greg
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of SportAV8R(at)aol.com
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:18 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT
>
>
> Eric_ we'd probably want to work out an impact-activation
> feature for the ELT (rather than water immersion or manual
> "on" only, right?
>
> -Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jsto1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | 406 Mhz GPS ELT cost issues |
As both a pilot and boater in Florida, I suggest that anyone interested
in acquiring a 406 MHz ELT or EPIRB pay special attention to the cost of
replacing the battery. I have carried a Litton Marine 406 MHz portable
EPIRB for the last 8 years, and had the "joy" of getting a replacement
battery. At $600 installed, it was a shock even to my certified
airplane parts budget. The new ones will obviously be less expensive,
but my queries to vendors a Oshkosh and boat shows indicated most
dealers haven't the foggiest what the battery replacement procedure or
cost will be.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 406 Mhz GPS ELT
-->
Try http://www.artex.net/3_freq_beacons.html, bring your wallet.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 406 Mhz GPS ELT
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
< ... For my money, if I wanted an ELT that REALLY
> works, I'd go for the GPS aided location option as well.
> This ELT broadcasts your exact location which has a lot better
> resolution than satellite based locator system.>>
11/1/2004
Hello Mickey, I don't think that a practical, affordable, GPS reporting,
TSO-C126 approved, 406 Mhz ELT compatible with a 12 volt airplane
exists. I'd love to be proved wrong. Let us know what you find.
You can start your search here
<<http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Beacons/typeApprovedListByManufacturer.ht
m>> and move on to the various manufacturers listed.
Be very precise / meticulous in your search -- you are entering a swamp
with many diverting alligators. Realize that you are looking for an ELT,
not just a beacon. OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
Actually, if you look at the specific data sheet for these parts:
Using 75W @ 13V gives us 5.77A - which is close enough to 50% of the 12A
rating. Looking at the data sheet, one finds that the resistance at
this current is 0.06 ohms which gives us a voltage drop of 0.35 V. So,
your 3% calculation is not far off - although I have no idea what you
did to get your numbers. Remember, E=I*R, I=E/R, R=E/I :-) .
Actually, based on the vendors data sheet, I would probably choose the
next lower size that is rated for 8A max. Using this one, the starting
resistance is 1.3 ohms vs 0.7 ohms for the 12A device. The resistance
at the operating current is essentially the same so the voltage drop
would be the same.
As far as your further comments about the 0.7 ohms adding to the bulb's
resistance, you are correct that it adds, but your value for the bulb's
resistance at start is way off. Your estimate of two ohms is basically
correct when the bulb is operating (R=13V/5.77A=2.25ohms). However,
before the bulb warms up, its resistance is less than 0.5 ohm (probably
much less but I do not have a milliohmeter to measure it accurately).
That means that you are reducing the inrush current by a factor of (0.7
+ 0.5) /0.5 or almost 2.5 times - probably more if we knew the actual
start resistance. So we are limiting the inrush current to
approximately: I = 13V / 1.2 ohms = 10.8A Much better than: I = 13V /
0.5 ohms = 26A! Or, if you use the next lower rated limiter you can
limit the current to: I = 13V / (1.3 + 0.7) ohms = 6.5A Not much more
than the steady state current of 5.77A.
The reason for using current limiters is, as you suggested, as much to
be gentle on your electrical system (not to good to use a 15A switch to
turn on a bulb with a 26A surge, but fine for a 10.8A surge) as to
increase the life of your bulb by limiting the shock of turning it on.
Dick Tasker
glaesers wrote:
>
>What the heck, lets get a bit technical (I'm an Aero Engr - so you may have
>to take it slow ;-)
>
>You seem to have selected thermistors rated for about twice the amperage for
>the light.
>Based on that, for a 75W bulb I'd use the KC022L. Now since it won't be
>operating at I-max, the resistance won't be the min value (.02 ohms). So
>for argument's sake, lets use .03 ohms. That means a voltage drop of .39 (I
>used 13V for all calculations). 3% doesn't seem so bad.
>
>Regarding the inrush current - As the thermistor rated current goes up the
>initial resistance goes down (some dumb law of physics no doubt). The
>KC022L's resistance (0.7 ohms) is less than half the bulb's (about 2 ohms).
>So the bigger the bulb the higher the initial current. How much initial
>resistance is enough? I guess anything is better than nothing.
>
>I'm thinking that limiting the inrush current is as much about being kind to
>the whole electrical system as it is about bulb life - am I out in left
>field on that? Anyway, they're cheap enough to try.
>
>It's wierd to think of something getting hot and going down in resistance -
>kind of like nichrome wire in an inverse universe!
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
> Dennis
>
>------------------------
>There are particulars like how much you want to limit the current and how
>much reduction in current you can accept (there will be some).
>
>If you don't want to get too technical: For a 35W lamp--use Digikey KC004L,
>for a 50W use a KC003L.
>Remember that these get hot and are supposed to get hot. Don't try to cool
>them off!--in fact they should be protected from cooling.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>---------------------------
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
| Subject: | 914 second alternator? |
I was looking through aircraft spruce tonight and saw a 8 amp permanent magnet
alternator.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/sdaltreg.php
Would this work on a vacuum pad on a rotax 914 and put out rated amps?
If I were to run second fuel pump from this and a 2 amp strobe power supply, what
sort of
battery would be needed? Could you get away with no battery?
If not any other ideas?
This is for a Europa XS.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> lights |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi |
lights
lights
Hi Dan,
Good find. I think the taxi light, facing aft, would
make a great tail light. One on the top of the rudder,
and the other on the bottom would rock.
Too bad I've already purchased a power sucking A500
for over 150 USD.
Mickey
>On a related note, has anyone looked at using clear UltraBrite LEDs as recognition
lights? Do these do well with a wig-wag setup? This site is marketing a
"taxi" light combined with a strobe that may prove interesting in recognition:
>
>https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1541956839198eb/shopdata/index.shopscript
>
>Dan Fritz
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "manuel bonniot" <mbonniot(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 914, dual alt |
Hi Bob and all
I am working on a Dyn Aero MCR 4S, to be equipped for IFR flying (ad-hoc
avionics, pitot heat...), powered by a Rotax 914 (electrically dependant).
I know the Rotax alt won't deliver enough power for all my stuff. So I need
to add a second alternator. I don't have enough room in the cowling to put a
belt driven one, so my only reasonable option is the SD 20. With the vacuum
pump pad turning at 0.54 the engine rpm, it could nearly deliver 20 amp at
5200 RPM, which is not so bad.
Well, I studied all your wiring diagrams in appendix Z, and none consider
using the rotax alternator, a second alternator running permanently, and 1
battery.
I realise the Z-14 is best of the best, but I'd really rather have only 1
battery.
The Z-16, with the 2nd alt wired as per Z-13 would fit my needs, but what
about the compatibility of both alt running at same time ?
Is it possible to keep the OV module on the Rotax alt, and also benefit from
the LR3 OV protection ?
If an OV occurs, how to know from which regulator it comes ?
Finally, what kind of wiring diagram seems to you to be most appropriate to
my situation ?
Thanks in advance for your help
Manuel Bonniot
Luxembourg
________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 11/8/2004 1:38:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
czechsix(at)juno.com writes:
Guys,
Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in sound
to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall vane/tab that
I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo alarm from Digikey for
something like $1 but it sounds like a fire alarm....it's a bit more shrill and
shocking than I want. Aircraft Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with
light for $740.00. You read that right...$740! That doesn't include the
vane. So anyway, if somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie
please let me know...
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D wiring...
Mark, take a look at this one: (Radio Shack #273-055)
_http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F002%5F003%5F0
00&Page=2_
(http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&category_name=CTLG_011_002_003_000&Page=2)
it's not a piezo but, a mechanical buzzer. If mounted in the right place
and on the right material, it can make a lot of racket similar to what you are
familiar with in a spam can.
Question is, will it survive the A/C environment?
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> lights |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi |
lights
lights
>
>
>Actually, if you look at the specific data sheet for these parts:
>
>Using 75W @ 13V gives us 5.77A - which is close enough to 50% of the 12A
>rating. Looking at the data sheet, one finds that the resistance at
>this current is 0.06 ohms which gives us a voltage drop of 0.35 V. So,
>your 3% calculation is not far off - although I have no idea what you
>did to get your numbers. Remember, E=I*R, I=E/R, R=E/I :-) .
>
>Actually, based on the vendors data sheet, I would probably choose the
>next lower size that is rated for 8A max. Using this one, the starting
>resistance is 1.3 ohms vs 0.7 ohms for the 12A device. The resistance
>at the operating current is essentially the same so the voltage drop
>would be the same.
Are you interpreting those data values right? These devices have a HIGHER
cold
resistance than HOT resistance. The I think the numbers you've quoted
above are the cold values. This means that when you add 1.3 + wiring +
lamp resistance all together, you get about 2 ohms total. Now calculate
inrush at about 7A. After the limiter warms up. About two seconds. It's
hot resitance should be about 0.1 ohms or less. When the lamp is drawing
5A, then drop across the limiter should be about .5 volts or less.
Bo0b . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
Since I was sworn to absolute secrecy on this, I only posted it on my
website. But this looks like the ticket. Prices (I hope) soon.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/AeroFix%20FCC%20Approved.pdf
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Doctors are the same as lawyers; the only difference is that
lawyers merely rob you, whereas doctors rob you and kill
you too."
~ Anton Chekhov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on pop-7.dnv.wideopenwest.com
Dick,
Thanks for a more complete analysis. I rounded more than you did, so I'm
pleased my numbers are as close to yours as they are. I had no clue what to
use for a starting resistance for the bulb, so my education is one notch
higher.
I was also thinking of the next lower size, but wasn't sure about running it
closer to it's I-max. Is longevity an issue for things like this that run
so hot? For the occasional and relatively short time those lights are on,
it's probably a non-issue.
Thanks again,
Dennis Glaeser
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
The reality of the 121.5/243 ELT system is that they will begin to
degrade
in 2006 (the Russians aren't launching anymore of these satellites).
The old
system is OFFLINE Feb 2009.
Does anyone have a clear description of what is required in OBAM
aircraft as
far as 406 MHz Emergency Locator Thingies (or whatever)?
My guess is not much.
There are many more nautical 406 MHz locators. The ACR GlobalFix 406
EPIRB
http://store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/globalfix.html can be bought for under
$850 in quantity of one. It is possibly to internet together a Buyer's
Club
to purchase a pallet of these if they are suitable for OBAM aircraft
use.
Let's see what the price might be and any technical issues before
proceeding.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
11/13/2004
Hello Eric and Others, There seems to be a great lack of understanding on the subject
of ELT's and 406 Mhz ELT's in particular. Let's see if we can create a
list of simple factual statements that will reduce the amount of time being spent
on conjuring up a 406 Mhz ELT for amateur built experimental aircraft.
1) FAR Sec 1.1 QUOTE: Approved, unless used with reference to another person, means
approved by the Administrator. UNQUOTE
2) FAR Sec 91.207 says airplanes must have QUOTE: .....attached to the airplane
an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable
condition for the following operations.....UNQUOTE. (Some exceptions are permitted.)
3) *automatic type* means activated by a sensing switch upon impact such as in
an airplane crash. A manually activated Emergency Position Indicating Radiobeacon
(EPIRB) would not be an approved ELT.
4) TSO C126, 406 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), is the normal method
the FAA uses to determine that such an ELT is approved. In theory the FAA permits
alternate methods of approval, but in the case of a device like a 406 Mhz
ELT that interfaces extensively with equipment outside the airplane an alternate
approval method would be very expensive and time consuming. Just take a look
at TSO C126 and, if you can get them, the referenced RTCA DO documents.
5) The presently available 406 Mhz ELT's are expensive. Aircraft Spruce lists the
Artex G406-4 model for $1,456.95.
6) If one desires GPS input to the ELT additional expense and hardware is involved.
7) The GPS input hardware to the Artex 406 Mhz ELT's requires 28 volts.
8) The airworthiness inspector at the initial inspection of an amateur built experimental
aircraft would most likely require that an approved ELT be installed.
(With a remote control capability from the cockpit, but that is another thread).
This *approved* requirement exists because: a) There is no exception for
amateur built experimental aircraft from the FAR Sec 91.207 ELT requirement.
b) The ELT equipment in the aircraft is expected to operate with external to the
aircraft equipment such as the satellites for the SARSAT System without creating
any interference to that system or other aircraft.##
There does not appear to be a readily available, inexpensive, cookbook approach
to putting 406 Mhz ELT's into our amateur built experimental aircraft. I welcome
additional useful factual additions to the above list.
OC
##PS: I make this point because not every item in the amateur built experimental
aircraft fulfilling a FAR requirement for approved equipment must, in fact,
be approved. Seat belts and shoulder harnesses are two items in this category.
You must have them, but they need not be approved by TSO or otherwise.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Ground Planes on Carbon Fiber |
>
> I am getting ready to install the ground plane for my transponder
> antenna mounted on the bottom outside on a Lancair IV-P.
> The manual calls for a 12 inch round ground plane installed on
> the inside of the aircraft, between the gear legs. A week or so
> ago, there was a post that said that the ground plane for the
> transponder should be 5.2 inches in diameter. I have two
> questions:
> Is there anything to be gained by going to a 12 inch ground
> plane as opposed to the 5.2 inch diameter specified in the post
> and does it make any difference on a carbon fiber aircraft
> whether the ground plane is located on the inside or outside of
> the skin?
>
Narco also says, for nonmetal aircraft skin, use a minimum 12"
diameter ground plane. I would presume they know what's best to tell
transponder installers, and it's probable that once beyond some radius
referenced to 1/4 wavelength -- 2.6" with the fudge factor, it doesn't
matter much. I'll propose also that affixing it to carbon fiber skin,
whether electrically bonded to the actual black stuff or not, makes it
further moot.
I've fiddled with a crude test setup at VHF frequencies and a monopole
antenna, using an antenna analyzer. Yes, there was an effect to
adding black cloth larger than the 1/4 wave length ground plane. It
appeared similar on either side of the foil ground plane -- simulating
it being either inside or outside the A/C -- but nothing to write home
about.
Reg,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
Uumm, yes... What about my discussion leads you to think that I
calculated it incorrectly? When I said that "The resistance at the
operating current is essentially the same so the voltage drop would be
the same.", I meant the same as the higher rated unit. Sorry if that
was unclear.
Dick
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
lights
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Actually, if you look at the specific data sheet for these parts:
>>
>>Using 75W @ 13V gives us 5.77A - which is close enough to 50% of the 12A
>>rating. Looking at the data sheet, one finds that the resistance at
>>this current is 0.06 ohms which gives us a voltage drop of 0.35 V. So,
>>your 3% calculation is not far off - although I have no idea what you
>>did to get your numbers. Remember, E=I*R, I=E/R, R=E/I :-) .
>>
>>Actually, based on the vendors data sheet, I would probably choose the
>>next lower size that is rated for 8A max. Using this one, the starting
>>resistance is 1.3 ohms vs 0.7 ohms for the 12A device. The resistance
>>at the operating current is essentially the same so the voltage drop
>>would be the same.
>>
>>
>
> Are you interpreting those data values right? These devices have a HIGHER
>cold
> resistance than HOT resistance. The I think the numbers you've quoted
> above are the cold values. This means that when you add 1.3 + wiring +
> lamp resistance all together, you get about 2 ohms total. Now calculate
> inrush at about 7A. After the limiter warms up. About two seconds. It's
> hot resitance should be about 0.1 ohms or less. When the lamp is drawing
> 5A, then drop across the limiter should be about .5 volts or less.
>
> Bo0b . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List:AOA was Stall Horn |
Its an interesting statement where facts are taken out of context and a
conclusion made that only "mine works". Sadly your conclusion is incorrect.
Its one thing to suggest your system is the greatest (OK; its just
advertising) but to suggest that the other competing systems do not work is
"at best not nice" as its simply incorrect to suggest that.
I am a retired Aeronautical engineer (aerodynamics area) and some 5 years
ago was interested in developing a "AOA" indicator for my personal aircraft
as well as potentially a very low cost system for use in the experimental
aircraft market. My comments are intentionally worded to allow non engineers
to understand my point and as such, are not always precise engineering.
BTW I determined that a minimal featured system could be sold for under $200
(and still can be).
First, what is needed is an indication is the amount of lift remaining, not
a really precision Angle of Attack (AOA). There are many ways to sense the
relative AOA in a manner that provides the pilot info on how close the
aircraft is to a stall but also above stall in some "linear" indicator so
regardless of the aircraft load (pilot and low fuel vs. many passengers and
fuel) the pilot can determine the correct approach speed for the aircraft
weight. While the AOA associated with stalling is constant, the speed that
the stall occurs goes up with wing loading. The classical stall warning horn
is not suitable for approach speed control as its "all or nothing" and
generally set too close to the real stall to be useful. Without a good AOA
indicator the pilot must guess how much faster the approach speed must be
under full load vs. near empty. This also works well in determining just
when to pull back (rotate) on Take off :-)
It's also important to note that there are hundreds of different wing
airfoils and the stalling AOA of each case can and does vary some what and,
over a large range in some used airfoils. Thus there is not one size fits
all "AOA" and each aircraft needs to be individually calibrated Not to
suggest that once a RV6 is calibrated that all RV6 aircraft can use the same
cals. However what worked on a Cessna will not necessarily work for a RV
etc.
Now to some basics.
You have the complex system of pressure difference and computer equations to
a really fine job but its "in my opinion" a great overkill for many. To
state, as the following post states, this is the only one that works (not at
all true); there are other systems that also work quite well. The classical
vane below the wing (Right Angle) and the fixed probe (Lift Reserve), as
well as the third port on the Dynon Pitot head for example.
Pitot heads work well in cruise flight but have increasing airspeed errors
as the real AOA of the head mounted on the wing increases into the stalling
angle. This error is significant at 10 degrees in many heads and with the
stalling AOA usually above that, the pitot error is large as the stall AOA
is reached. This error is used by Dynon to determine the approach to stall
indication (with a third sensor port). My point is that your statement that
the airflow is nearly parallel to the wing as its gets very close is correct
but 6" or more away from the wing the airflow is not parallel and can be and
is used to determine relative AOA which is reliable info for the intended
purpose of determining the relative AOA for best safe approach speed.
The C150/172 has a very large airspeed error at the stall (using the
conventional pitot head). The Piper probe set 4" below the middle of the
wing is much more accurate but not zero error.
So the moving vane positioned at least 6" below the wing can and does
provide a real means of sensing the needed AOA (Further away is better). The
Lift reserve system uses a fixed probe with two pressure ports set at
different angles and these probes are also around 6" below the wing.The
Dynon probe is similar to the lift reserve as it has a third pressure port
set on a face below the normal pitot probe.
All three of the above systems provide cockpit info on the amount of lift
available and thus the ability to adjust the approach speed (for example) to
match the aircraft gross weight with the same margin of airspeed. All are
far simpler that your system and lower cost and do work well. All also have
something sticking out of the wing which your system does not. To some that
is a very desirable feature but the end result in info provided to the pilot
is essentially the same. Potentially your system is more accurate but as the
simple systems are typically more accurate than the average pilots ability
to control aircraft attitude, the need for more precision is moot. ANY
system is so much better than none, I suggest the proper sales pitch is that
everyone needs an AOA system and ours is the best but any is far better than
none!
I have personally flight tested the moving vane setup on several different
aircraft and found it to work well and perform as intended. I have a friend
with a Lift Reserve system on his Bonanza and is very pleased with it and as
he is a retired airline pilot he knows the value of a AOA system. Either
system permits safer flight.
These systems are not a glorified airspeed (as you suggest) as they sense
and display the real stalling speed margin as it varies with load. Depending
on the effectiveness of the flaps there needs to be a flap position feedback
to the system as the flaps may produce significant changes in the lift
coeficant of the wing. ALL systems are the same in this respect. However the
pilot can simply fly a slightly different place on the display and
accomplish the result. Not ideal but far better than not having an AOA. I
found that even the very effective flaps on the Cessnas could be compensated
with flying one bar different on the AOA indicator vs flap position
compensation (Nice feature but not a requirement!).
If you fly an aircraft where the gross weight varies over a small range like
a single place aircraft there is little need for a AOA system. However as
the weight range increases to perhaps as much as the empty weight of the
aircraft then its really helpful and many of us feel it is an essential
device.
I reply to your post only because you have made false/misleading statements
about the competition that need a response. There are lower cost systems
that do work. ALL systems including yours have advantages and disadvantages.
Cost, retrofitability, type of aircraft, etc. all are considerations and one
system does not fit all.
Having an AOA systerm on ALL general aviation aircraft could be a great
safety addition.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Olivier Le Carbonnier" <olcdlm(at)laposte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>
> yes but the answer from man from AngleOffAttack is:
> ------------------------------
> The difference is that our AOA works. If you think about it, the
advantage
> of the under wing pitot tube is that the airflow is always flowing about
> parallel to the under side of the wing. Because of this the airspeed
> indication (IAS) is accurate no matter what the angle of attack (AOA).
> Conversely, the under wing is a lousy place for an AOA sensor. This is
> because the air changes direction way before it reaches the wing and when
> it reaches the wing the airflow is about parallel to the wing surface no
> matter what the AOA.
>
> Now, if you try to fix this by moving the pitot tube further from the wing
> to get into undisturbed air, you may improve the AOA sensing ability
> somewhat but the IAS now has errors with changes in AOA. Did you ever
> wonder why the AOA probes on Airbus airliners are way ahead of the wing on
> the nose of the fuselage? They actually have to be one and one half chord
> ahead of the wing to get into undisturbed air.
>
> The beauty of our system is that it senses pressures on the top and bottom
> of the wing (aerodynamic sensing) and divides that differential pressure
by
> the dynamic pressure producing a Cl (coefficient of lift). Those
familiar
> in the art know that coefficient of lift and AOA vary uniquely with each
> other. We avoid the pit falls of both pressure on probe sensing systems
> and vane systems. Also you have some redundancy.
>
> Consequently, we sell more AOAs than all the other AOA folks combined. If
> you want an AOA that works, let us know. Our AOA is based on sound
> aerodynamic principle . Any other would only be a glorified IAS
indicator.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Olivier
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Matt
> Prather
> Envoy : mercredi 10 novembre 2004 16:33
> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
>
>
>
>
> I'll take this opportunity to correct myself a bit.. Aircraft spruce has
a
> vane style unit for $545 here:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoartangle.php
>
> It seems they pretty much go up from there. Another option, depending
> on how much cool stuff you are going to put in the panel is the Dynon
> EFIS. They are having some teething trouble, but I think they'll sort it
> out. They offer an AOA pitot probe for $200 (only works with their
> EFIS). The total cost would be about $2600 which while a pretty good
> value is not cheap.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/efisd10.php
>
> Matt-
>
> >
> >
> > where ?
> >
> > Olivier
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de Matt
> > Prather
> > Envoy : mardi 9 novembre 2004 21:19
> > : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Not cheap... I have seen them start at $600.
> >
> > MAP
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> why not a AOA ?
> >>
> >> Olivier LC
> >> France
> >> ICQ#: 82067330
> >> sanglier(at)laposte.net
> >> http://sangliervolant.chez.tiscali.fr Van's RV-8 n81939 wings
> >>
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]De la part de
> >> czechsix(at)juno.com
> >> Envoy : lundi 8 novembre 2004 19:34
> >> : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
> >> Objet : AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Guys,
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of a source for a cheap stall warning horn similar in
> >> sound to what's used on spam cans? I made my own spam-style stall
> >> vane/tab that I'm putting in the LE of the wing. I bought a piezo
> >> alarm from Digikey for something like $1 but it sounds like a fire
> >> alarm....it's a bit more shrill and shocking than I want. Aircraft
> >> Spruce sells a Safe Flight stall horn with light for $740.00. You
> >> read that right...$740! That doesn't include the vane. So anyway, if
> >> somebody knows of a non-aircraft source for such a beastie please let
> >> me know...
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> --Mark Navratil
> >> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> >> RV-8A N2D wiring...
> >>
> >> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!
> >> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
I can't speak from experience (plane is still under construction), but
they are designed for this type application and should work fine. Their
temperature rating is -50 to 175C. Using their calculations for
temperature rise, the 8A rated unit running at 6A would have a
temperature rise of 92C. When added to an ambient of 40C (assuming a
hot day) gives you 132C - still 43C lower than the maximum allowed
temperature.
According to their data, the 8A rated unit can handle 6A at temperatures
up to 100C before exceeding its design ratings.
I believe either would work fine, but your choice.
Dick Tasker
glaesers wrote:
>
>Dick,
>
>Thanks for a more complete analysis. I rounded more than you did, so I'm
>pleased my numbers are as close to yours as they are. I had no clue what to
>use for a starting resistance for the bulb, so my education is one notch
>higher.
>
>I was also thinking of the next lower size, but wasn't sure about running it
>closer to it's I-max. Is longevity an issue for things like this that run
>so hot? For the occasional and relatively short time those lights are on,
>it's probably a non-issue.
>
>Thanks again,
>
> Dennis Glaeser
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 914 second alternator? |
Ronald J. Parigoris wrote:
> I was looking through aircraft spruce tonight and saw a 8 amp
permanent magnet
> alternator.
>
> Would this work on a vacuum pad on a rotax 914 and put out rated
amps?
Not enough RPM at cruise, due the gear ratio of the 914 redrive box.
I'd figure 5A for planning purposes. Does your 914 have the pump
drive kit installed? If not, the drive kit isn't cheap, meaning fair
bucks total for just a few extra amps, but I found it easy to install
on a new engine.
> If I were to run second fuel pump from this and a 2 amp strobe power
supply, what sort of
> battery would be needed?
If you're concerned about the small probability of complete failure of
the main electrical system and also the B&C alternator, then you'd
want enough reserve capacity to be able to run one fuel pump + maybe
engine instrumentation long enough to land someplace fairly soon now.
As a practical matter, a 5-7Ah sealed, lead-acid battery is cheap and
light, so why fuss over probabilities.
> Could you get away with no battery?
B&C would have to say if the regulator could be damaged, but still the
setup could be noisy enough to cause problems in the avionics. Maybe
enough size in an electrolytic capacitor would fix it though. If the
idea is also emergency power for one fuel pump and maybe engine
instrumentation, upon failure of everything else, at low RPM like on
final, the B&C "8 amp" alternator may not enable enough fuel flow.
> If not any other ideas?
If all you'll run on the B&C setup are the boost/emergency backup pump
plus strobes, 2A worth of strobe power doesn't sound like enough light
output per FAA rules, meaning for daytime use not worth anything for
safety, IMO. So unless you want something for almost-legal and
occasional night flight, you could go for day-VFR only. If you want
fully redundant power for one pump, it's possible a switchable pack of
alkaline D-cells may supply enough (plus the fuel pressure gauge) to
be of value. A timed test with the engine not running -- worst case
for current draw -- is worth a try. I recall FAA has approved at
least one certified plane with such a periodically-replaced alkaline
pack to supply IFR backup power to an electric AH gyro, presumably
roughly same draw as the 914 fuel pump.
Reg,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns(at)hevanet.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 914 second alternator? |
Check the Europa-List archives for the April-June 2001 timeframe.
I posted several lengthy articles on this.
Basically, you can add an SD-8 or SD-20 to the Rotax vacuum pump pad, but
because the pump drive spins more slowly than AND2000 standards,
you will get much less current. The 914 PTO spins even more slowly, with
less
output. From my posting of 4/27/01 entitled:
"Re: Europa_Mail: Speeding up the Rotax 914 Vacuum Pump PTO"
"Note the clear knee in the output curves. The SD-8 and 20 are
clearly designed for the Lycoming, and, perhaps conveniently, the 912, but
on the 914 the SD-8 is down 40% or so at economy cruise, and down 15% at max
RPM.
The SD-20 is no better than 50% of rating! Note also that at most cruise
power settings the Rotax internal generator is producing full output!"
This is why Rotax's recommended additional alternator uses a belt off the
prop shaft.
One Europa builder went so far as to mount a Honda alternator to the rear
shaft bearing
of the 914 driven by a flexshaft.
To get 10A off the Rotax PTO, you need to use an SD-20, but this is an
expensive and heavy
"solution" that doesn't fit within the Europa cowling. But then, neither
does the belt
drive alternator.
Shaun
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> |
| Subject: | Tail Light - Bulb Type? |
Hi all,
I've got a little project going and I'm not near the airport to check on
this myself.
I have Whelan position lights. Could someone please tell me whether the
tail light is the type of bulb with the two little nubs (that retain the
bulb in the socket) the same distance from the 'end' of the bulb or are
they off-set (like the multi-filament break light bulbs)??
Thanks so much!!
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 465 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
> 5) The presently available 406 Mhz ELT's are expensive. Aircraft Spruce lists
the Artex G406-4 model for $1,456.95.
My plan:
Buy the cheapest, sorriest excuse for an ELT that I can get off eBay
that will pass the inspection right now.**
Upgrade to the 406MHz device when the price becomes more reasonable.***
Carry the cheaper handheld devices on any cross country.
**Not being found is somewhat less of a worry for me. I live in the
heavily populated Eastern US.
***The assumption is that the price will drop, because the price of
electronics always drops. But these are TSO'ed aviation devices. With
the FAA watching over them, they don't have to follow the laws of
economics that everything else does.
--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
"This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi lights |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on pop-7.dnv.wideopenwest.com
Whew - they do get hot! And (6A-squared * .06 ohms) means it's putting out
2.16W. I agree that the 8A unit is the way to go. Any recommendations on
physical installation? Would it be better to install it near the light, or
at the switch end - or does it matter?
Dennis Glaeser
I can't speak from experience (plane is still under construction), but
they are designed for this type application and should work fine. Their
temperature rating is -50 to 175C. Using their calculations for
temperature rise, the 8A rated unit running at 6A would have a
temperature rise of 92C. When added to an ambient of 40C (assuming a
hot day) gives you 132C - still 43C lower than the maximum allowed
temperature.
According to their data, the 8A rated unit can handle 6A at temperatures
up to 100C before exceeding its design ratings.
I believe either would work fine, but your choice.
Dick Tasker
------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
>
>Since I was sworn to absolute secrecy on this, I only posted it on my
>website. But this looks like the ticket. Prices (I hope) soon.
>
>http://www.periheliondesign.com/AeroFix%20FCC%20Approved.pdf
That is an interesting device, but it doesn't look like it qualifies as an
"approved" ELT. It would need to have a means to automatically activate
it, and it would need an airframe mounted antenna at the very least. So,
it might be a very useful device to have in your pocket, but you would
still need to have an approved ELT.
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
In a message dated 11/13/2004 2:51:53 PM Central Standard Time,
echristley(at)nc.rr.com writes:
My plan:
Buy the cheapest, sorriest excuse for an ELT that I can get off eBay
that will pass the inspection right now.**
Upgrade to the 406MHz device when the price becomes more reasonable.***
Carry the cheaper handheld devices on any cross country.
Good Afternoon Ernest,
You bring up a very good point. Why should we be forced to carry an ELT at
all?
Someone earlier said it was forced upon us by a congressman who lost a
friend in a survivable accident in Alaska.
My recollection is that it was a U. S. Senator from Colorado that shoved it
down our throats. I think the name was Dominick or something close to that.
I believe his friend died from exposure after a few days when no one was
searching for him and I believe the location was here in the lower forty-eight.
If not in Colorado, at least, somewhere in the West.
Personally, as long as portable radios have been available, I have carried
one with me any time that I strayed from heavily traveled byways (like
following Highway 66). Anybody but me remember the Baysides?
I also carried a high altitude Jeppesen chart that showed what frequencies
the air carrier traffic would be using in the area over which I was flying.
If I was in good enough shape following the accident to get out the radio, I
would have tuned it to the area frequency and waited until I heard somebody
give a position report. Believe it or not, we formerly made a lot of such
reports. As soon as the report was completed, the plan was to call the
aircraft and tell them of my problem. Before 9-11, hardly anybody ever monitored
121.5. You had a much better chance of working a flight that was on center
than you did of raising anybody on 121.5.
But, I am wandering again. The point I wish to make is that it should be up
to us as individuals to make the decision as to how much protection we
desire should an unfortunate occurrence befall us.
I think my old method was lot better than the ELT solution as it was forced
upon us in the early days of such a requirement. I suppose the new 406 with
GPS supplementation would be nice to have, but is it really necessary for us
to have that much protection from ourselves?
I would put in no more than was required to meet the absolute minimum FAA
standard.
Beyond that, I would carry a handheld Comm unit and a handheld GPS in a
small emergency bag that could be easily removed from the aircraft. That is what
I do now. With a double supply of batteries for the handhelds, I think I am
protected as much as I want to be.
I don't give a hoot whether the ELT works or not.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
| Subject: | Pitot Heat inrush question |
I was thinking (always a dangerous endeavour)... if it is a good idea to
use a thermistor to limit the inrush on a landing/taxi light, what about
Pitot Heat? It's also just a big (about 100W I think) resistive load, sort
of like a light bulb - just not as bright.
Or is it...
It just so happens that a heated pitot is the one thing I have! (a used
Cessna unit - bought on eBay) My multi-meter says it has 2.2 ohms cold. So
at 13V, that means 5.9A of current initially. So apparently it is different
than a light bulb which has a much lower resistance when cold. If my 100W
assumption is correct, then at 13V the current is 7.69A. So that would
indicate not much of an inrush is going on, so no thermistor needed.
Does this sound right?
Thanks,
Dennis Glaeser
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Nellis <mike(at)bmnellis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Heat inrush question |
I did some bench testing a few years ago with a 5814 heated pitot tube.
You can see a graph of the current vs time analysis here
http://bmnellis.com/pitotcurrent.htm
There is also a link on the page that shows the actual data. Keep in
mind this was a bench test so inflight data might be a little different
with the air rusing by and cooling things down.
http://bmnellis.com/pitotcurrent.htm
--
Mike Nellis
Austin, TX
CMRA #32 Honda RC51
'97 YZF1000
'47 Stinson 108-2; RV6 (Fuselage)
http://bmnellis.com
glaesers wrote:
>
>I was thinking (always a dangerous endeavour)... if it is a good idea to
>use a thermistor to limit the inrush on a landing/taxi light, what about
>Pitot Heat? It's also just a big (about 100W I think) resistive load, sort
>of like a light bulb - just not as bright.
>
>Or is it...
>
>It just so happens that a heated pitot is the one thing I have! (a used
>Cessna unit - bought on eBay) My multi-meter says it has 2.2 ohms cold. So
>at 13V, that means 5.9A of current initially. So apparently it is different
>than a light bulb which has a much lower resistance when cold. If my 100W
>assumption is correct, then at 13V the current is 7.69A. So that would
>indicate not much of an inrush is going on, so no thermistor needed.
>
>Does this sound right?
>
>Thanks,
>
> Dennis Glaeser
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMC <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Pitot Heat inrush question |
Hi Dennis
I purchased a used AN 5812 Cessna style pitot from a radio shop that is
going out of business, they had used the pitot as a loaner. The shop
measured and recorded the current inrush at 14.01 volts as 16 amps tapering
to 10 amps. Manufacturers paperwork states that this pitot draws 6.4 to 8
amps.
George in Langley
I was thinking (always a dangerous endeavour)... if it is a good idea to
use a thermistor to limit the inrush on a landing/taxi light, what about
Pitot Heat? It's also just a big (about 100W I think) resistive load, sort
of like a light bulb - just not as bright.
Or is it...
It just so happens that a heated pitot is the one thing I have! (a used
Cessna unit - bought on eBay) My multi-meter says it has 2.2 ohms cold. So
at 13V, that means 5.9A of current initially. So apparently it is different
than a light bulb which has a much lower resistance when cold. If my 100W
assumption is correct, then at 13V the current is 7.69A. So that would
indicate not much of an inrush is going on, so no thermistor needed.
Does this sound right?
Thanks,
Dennis Glaeser
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
>
> My recollection is that it was a U. S. Senator from Colorado that
shoved
> it down our throats. I think the name was Dominick...
Yup. The below link has history of the ELT, discusses the various
TSO's, and the 406mHz issue:
http://www.iawg.cap.gov/DSM/beaconstory.htm
> Beyond that, I would carry a handheld Comm unit and a handheld
> GPS in a small emergency bag that could be easily removed from the
> aircraft.
And don't forget a cell phone. Seems lately there are news reports of
stranded people in really remote areas able to use a cell phone to
call 911.
> I think my old method was lot better than the ELT solution as it was
forced
> upon us in the early days of such a requirement.
The gov't couldn't prove aircraft ELT's save hardly anybody. I
searched many years of the NTSB database, and could not find many
cases where an ELT assisted search much at all, much less an actual
"save." To the contrary, it's common to read about crashes in very
remote areas, where NTSB still cites a witness report or someone
reporting a probable crash near yonder mountain to police. I tried
some CAP web sites; you'd think if their unit ever saved anyone in an
airplane, they'd brag about it. No luck.
I checked the site of the gov't consortium that oversees all this.
They cite one year, 2002, where worldwide, 57 people in aviation
incidents were rescued. That's not many at all on this big planet,
even if the self-serving statistic has exaggerated what really were
saves due to an ELT (they use the weasel word "assisted"), as gov'ts
like to do.
Reg,
Fred F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Pitot Heat inrush question |
>
>
>Hi Dennis
>
>I purchased a used AN 5812 Cessna style pitot from a radio shop that is
>going out of business, they had used the pitot as a loaner. The shop
>measured and recorded the current inrush at 14.01 volts as 16 amps tapering
>to 10 amps. Manufacturers paperwork states that this pitot draws 6.4 to 8
>amps.
>
>George in Langley
>
>
>
>
>I was thinking (always a dangerous endeavour)... if it is a good idea to
>use a thermistor to limit the inrush on a landing/taxi light, what about
>Pitot Heat? It's also just a big (about 100W I think) resistive load, sort
>of like a light bulb - just not as bright.
>
>Or is it...
>
>It just so happens that a heated pitot is the one thing I have! (a used
>Cessna unit - bought on eBay) My multi-meter says it has 2.2 ohms cold. So
>at 13V, that means 5.9A of current initially. So apparently it is different
>than a light bulb which has a much lower resistance when cold. If my 100W
>assumption is correct, then at 13V the current is 7.69A. So that would
>indicate not much of an inrush is going on, so no thermistor needed.
>
>Does this sound right?
Here's some data I took on a bunch of heated tubes off a Beechjet
about three years ago. These are 26 volt nominal tubes rated
at about 250W while melting ice.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Pitot_Heater_R.pdf
The curve shows temperature resistance measurement for the tubes
in a vacuum. The chart in the upper left corner is current draw while
in a crushed ice bath (zero C).
Note that while the surface of the tubes were at freezing, the heaters
were running about 140 degrees C and had a resistance of about 2.7 ohms.
Scaling these down to a 100W tube would increase the operating resistance
to about 6.76 ohms for a 26v tube, and 3.88 ohms for a 13v tube. Assuming the
same temperature coefficient for the heater material, a 3.38 ohm operating
heater setting at 0C waiting to be turned on will have a cold resistance
on the order of 2.63 ohms for an inrush at 13 volts of 5A. So what
you've measured on the tube you have in hand is consistent with the
measurements
I've made on other tubes.
I had an unmarked 13v tube in my shop a couple years ago that a builder wanted
test data on. It's inrush was just over 16A and settled out at 12A in the
ice bath for what I would have called a 150 watt tube.
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> lights |
| Subject: | Re: Keep warm circuit for Landing/Taxi |
lights
lights
>
>
>Whew - they do get hot! And (6A-squared * .06 ohms) means it's putting out
>2.16W. I agree that the 8A unit is the way to go. Any recommendations on
>physical installation? Would it be better to install it near the light, or
>at the switch end - or does it matter?
>
>Dennis Glaeser
I used these on the GP-180 in the taxi light fixtures. we made some
fiberglas "socks" to slip over the device using wood-burning stove
door gasket material you can buy at any fireplace store. A tripple
layer of glas kept the clamp that mounted it from soaking off the
heat.
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
>> Beyond that, I would carry a handheld Comm unit and a handheld
>> GPS in a small emergency bag that could be easily removed from the
>> aircraft.
>
>And don't forget a cell phone. Seems lately there are news reports of
>stranded people in really remote areas able to use a cell phone to
>call 911.
The GPS is key. There was a crash recently in the hills of Oregon
where the guys survived the crash, called 911, and it still
took them over 10 hours to be found. One died in the meantime.
>The gov't couldn't prove aircraft ELT's save hardly anybody. I
>searched many years of the NTSB database, and could not find many
>cases where an ELT assisted search much at all, much less an actual
>"save."
If the Feds can home in on a low power pirate radio station
in about 15 minutes, it seems like if they wanted to, they
should be able to find an ELT that is actually designed to
be found. Not sure why this does not seem to be the case.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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| From: | "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess(at)bluewin.ch> |
| Subject: | Rotax 914, dual alt |
Manuel,
The electrical system of my Europa XS (not yet flying) with a Rotax 912S
is based on two alternators working in parallel if the power consumtion
needs it. The setpoint of the regulator for the Rotax alternator is set
at 14.3 V, the setpoint of the regulator for the vacuum drive pad
alternator (a SD-8 in my case) is set at 13.8 V. If the power
consumption exceeds the output of the Rotax alternator, the bus voltage
will fall below 14.3 V and at 13.8 V the SD-8 will come alive. This
means the SD-8 works more like a boost alternator than an emergency
alternator. If you are interested, I could send you a CAD-file (.dwg) of
my electrical system.
Alfred
Alfred Buess
Laenggasse 81, CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland
Tel.: +41 (0)31 911 63 32, Fax: +41 (0)31 911 56 32
E-Mail: ykibuess(at)bluewin.ch
Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS
-->
Hi Bob and all
I am working on a Dyn Aero MCR 4S, to be equipped for IFR flying (ad-hoc
avionics, pitot heat...), powered by a Rotax 914 (electrically
dependant). I know the Rotax alt won't deliver enough power for all my
stuff. So I need
to add a second alternator. I don't have enough room in the cowling to
put a
belt driven one, so my only reasonable option is the SD 20. With the
vacuum
pump pad turning at 0.54 the engine rpm, it could nearly deliver 20 amp
at
5200 RPM, which is not so bad.
Well, I studied all your wiring diagrams in appendix Z, and none
consider
using the rotax alternator, a second alternator running permanently, and
1
battery.
I realise the Z-14 is best of the best, but I'd really rather have only
1
battery.
The Z-16, with the 2nd alt wired as per Z-13 would fit my needs, but
what
about the compatibility of both alt running at same time ?
Is it possible to keep the OV module on the Rotax alt, and also benefit
from
the LR3 OV protection ?
If an OV occurs, how to know from which regulator it comes ?
Finally, what kind of wiring diagram seems to you to be most appropriate
to
my situation ?
Thanks in advance for your help
Manuel Bonniot
Luxembourg
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| From: | "John Fulp" <jrfulp(at)ncia.net> |
These ELT's are FAA-FCC-TSO-C91a approved. Some have panel mounted on/off and are
much less
expensive. Hope this helps.
http://store.wagaero.com
John
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on juliet.albedo.net
Yup, unless something dramatic has happened in the last couple of
decades, there is likely still a high probability that the closest
units/aircraft dispatched to investigate an ELT do not have VHF
direction finding equipment. Politicians want a response for the press.
A successful rescue is secondary. Add in the probability of poor weather
for a visual search, how large the search area is, and the life of ELT
batteries, and you can begin to see why the GPS coordinates can be so
important. Too often it takes more than a day to find a wreck only a
couple of miles from the runway in non-urban areas.
There have certainly been cases where the ELT's value was many hours
sooner notice of a crash and narrowing the search are dramatically, but
the coordinates are still key to a rescue. For controlling search costs
alone, you can bank on having to buy a 406 mhz gps enabled ELT fairly soon!
Ken
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
>
>>>Beyond that, I would carry a handheld Comm unit and a handheld
>>>GPS in a small emergency bag that could be easily removed from the
>>>aircraft.
>>>
>>>
>>And don't forget a cell phone. Seems lately there are news reports of
>>stranded people in really remote areas able to use a cell phone to
>>call 911.
>>
>>
>
>The GPS is key. There was a crash recently in the hills of Oregon
>where the guys survived the crash, called 911, and it still
>took them over 10 hours to be found. One died in the meantime.
>
>
>
>>The gov't couldn't prove aircraft ELT's save hardly anybody. I
>>searched many years of the NTSB database, and could not find many
>>cases where an ELT assisted search much at all, much less an actual
>>"save."
>>
>>
>
>If the Feds can home in on a low power pirate radio station
>in about 15 minutes, it seems like if they wanted to, they
>should be able to find an ELT that is actually designed to
>be found. Not sure why this does not seem to be the case.
>
>--
>
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
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DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=v4IWbN12X7nAQq5MiL5Fxx408NiikXqVs4TACA/U1luQGL8TDI2cJ9Hm6QTJWhd5Sag/mp4HQwEA91QKCqiAiA6xeSH2A/4D3C7Pjz8u+dwFm6cCdc9YYJcEh49WNI+nXr95ZyhRQVEaqoroonP74Vwo4XpbDszjGEYmSwtMRMo;
| From: | D Fritz <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: [Bulk] RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
>
>Since I was sworn to absolute secrecy on this, I only posted it on my
>website. But this looks like the ticket. Prices (I hope) soon.
>
>http://www.periheliondesign.com/AeroFix%20FCC%20Approved.pdf
Looks like a very interesting device, indeed. Please keep us posted when they
put out a price for it. Since the price of "approved" 406MHz ELTs probably won't
come down for quite some time, and since the old 121.5 ELTs are so rarely
useful in effecting survivor recoveries, I think I'll just get a unit similar
to the above as well as an inexpensive (relative) 121.5 ELT and just activate
the 406 unit prior to any off-airport landing. Alternatively, I'm sure some enterprising
EE could hack into one of the non-approved 406 units and devise a
G-activated switch to turn it on. I'd be an interested customer for something
like this. The advantages of of transmitting a GPS position on a 406 unit seem
clear to me. The quicker they can find me (should the need arise) the better
I feel
Dan Fritz
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| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | smaller fast-on connectors for microswitches |
Hi Listers,
I've got a Omron microswitch for my AOA flap sensor,
and it has some tabs that look like of like faston
tabs, but they are a bit smaller.
Can anyone suggest a place where I can buy some of
these terminals? I tried slogging through the
digikey website, but if you don't know exactly what
you want there, you're hosed.
Is it possible that these 0.187" (3/16"?) terminals are the
right size?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pidg.php
Many thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: smaller fast-on connectors for microswitches |
Those are certainly all the standard faston sizes. You have to either
look at the switch datasheet or carefully measure the switch tabs to
determine which (if any) are suitable.
To choose the correct part you have to determine: 1. the width of the
tabs 2. the thickness of the tabs 3. the wire size to be used
Dick Tasker
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi Listers,
>
>I've got a Omron microswitch for my AOA flap sensor,
>and it has some tabs that look like of like faston
>tabs, but they are a bit smaller.
>
>Can anyone suggest a place where I can buy some of
>these terminals? I tried slogging through the
>digikey website, but if you don't know exactly what
>you want there, you're hosed.
>
>Is it possible that these 0.187" (3/16"?) terminals are the
>right size?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pidg.php
>
>Many thanks,
>Mickey
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
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>
>
>
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| From: | Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: smaller fast-on connectors for microswitches |
Mickey;
It's possible. All you have to do is check the width and thickness of
the tabs you have, with a vernier calliper, micrometer or like
instrument and compare the measurements you get with the chart you
linked to. When you find a connector with matching dimensions and the
wire size you desire, you've found the right one. This is the reason the
chart you show gives the width and thickness dimensions of the tab the
connector is designed to work with.
Hope this clarifies the problem for you
Bob McC
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>Hi Listers,
>
>I've got a Omron microswitch for my AOA flap sensor,
>and it has some tabs that look like of like faston
>tabs, but they are a bit smaller.
>
>Is it possible that these 0.187" (3/16"?) terminals are the
>right size?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pidg.php
>
>Many thanks,
>Mickey
>
>
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| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
From: "Olivier Le Carbonnier" <olcdlm(at)laposte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Stall Horn
<< ....skip....The difference is that our AOA works....skip....>>
11/14/2004
Hello Olivier, Would you please identify which AOA is *ours* and where to get some
information on it?
Thanks,
OC
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| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: smaller fast-on connectors for microswitches |
Mickey,
I am using a similar switch to detect flap position, also an Omron with 3/16"
tabs. FWIW, I found suitable fast-ons for 20-22 ga wire at the local Napa
store.
Doug Windhorn
In a message dated 11/14/2004 7:40:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch writes:
> Hi Listers,
>
> I've got a Omron microswitch for my AOA flap sensor,
> and it has some tabs that look like of like faston
> tabs, but they are a bit smaller.
>
> Can anyone suggest a place where I can buy some of
> these terminals? I tried slogging through the
> digikey website, but if you don't know exactly what
> you want there, you're hosed.
>
> Is it possible that these 0.187" (3/16"?) terminals are the
> right size?
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pidg.php
>
> Many thanks,
> Mickey
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> microswitches |
| Subject: | Re: smaller fast-on connectors for |
microswitches
microswitches
>
>
>Hi Listers,
>
>I've got a Omron microswitch for my AOA flap sensor,
>and it has some tabs that look like of like faston
>tabs, but they are a bit smaller.
>
>Can anyone suggest a place where I can buy some of
>these terminals? I tried slogging through the
>digikey website, but if you don't know exactly what
>you want there, you're hosed.
>
>Is it possible that these 0.187" (3/16"?) terminals are the
>right size?
Here's the Digikey page with all the PIDG Fast-On
terminals:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T043/0196.pdf
Most basic switches ("microswitches") use the .187
(3/16") size (AMP 640917-1)
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914, dual alt |
>
>
>Manuel,
>
>The electrical system of my Europa XS (not yet flying) with a Rotax 912S
>is based on two alternators working in parallel if the power consumtion
>needs it. The setpoint of the regulator for the Rotax alternator is set
>at 14.3 V, the setpoint of the regulator for the vacuum drive pad
>alternator (a SD-8 in my case) is set at 13.8 V. If the power
>consumption exceeds the output of the Rotax alternator, the bus voltage
>will fall below 14.3 V and at 13.8 V the SD-8 will come alive. This
>means the SD-8 works more like a boost alternator than an emergency
>alternator. If you are interested, I could send you a CAD-file (.dwg) of
>my electrical system.
>
>Alfred
To my knowledge, there are no vacuum-pump, pad-driven alternators
that will produce useful amounts of snort on the 912/914 series
engines. Their pads are just too slow. Didn't somebody on the list
point us to a successful belt driven add-on to the Rotax in a Europa?
I seem to recall having seen photos.
>I am working on a Dyn Aero MCR 4S, to be equipped for IFR flying (ad-hoc
>
>avionics, pitot heat...), powered by a Rotax 914 (electrically
>dependant). I know the Rotax alt won't deliver enough power for all my
>stuff. So I need
>to add a second alternator. I don't have enough room in the cowling to
>put a
>belt driven one, so my only reasonable option is the SD 20. With the
>vacuum
>pump pad turning at 0.54 the engine rpm, it could nearly deliver 20 amp
>at
>5200 RPM, which is not so bad.
This puts your pad at which is 2800. The pad on a lycoming or
continental runs at 1.25 to 1.4 of crankshaft which is about
3200 RPM where the SD-20 is rated. Further, I'm not sure the
SD-20 fits the Rotax.
Have you discussed this with B&C?
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "NEMuzzy" <list01(at)GourmetDamage.com> |
| Subject: | Collins 331H-3G CDI Pinout? |
Would anyone have a pinout for a Collins 331H-3G glideslope indicator? I
will be connecting it to a KNS-80 RNAV. The KING equipment is no problem to
find pinouts for, but the Collins info seems to be hiding from me.
Regards-
Norm
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jsto1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 914, dual alt |
Bob,
I had a similar issue using the vacuum pad on a Jabiru engine and have
talked to B&C at Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun for the past 2 years. They
basicly said, "Sorry". So I designed a flat belt drive for a Toyota
alternator, and use the built in Jabiru alternator just to manage the
backup battery and tach input. Anyone can drop me an E-mail if they
want some photos. Jabiru had ~7" space to fit in a 90 Amp alternator, a
new 55 A Nippon Denso that's 5 lb lighter is regularly on EBay for
~$110.
Jim Stone
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AW: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 914, dual alt
-->
>
>
>Manuel,
>
>The electrical system of my Europa XS (not yet flying) with a Rotax
>912S is based on two alternators working in parallel if the power
>consumtion needs it. The setpoint of the regulator for the Rotax
>alternator is set at 14.3 V, the setpoint of the regulator for the
>vacuum drive pad alternator (a SD-8 in my case) is set at 13.8 V. If
>the power consumption exceeds the output of the Rotax alternator, the
>bus voltage will fall below 14.3 V and at 13.8 V the SD-8 will come
>alive. This means the SD-8 works more like a boost alternator than an
>emergency alternator. If you are interested, I could send you a
>CAD-file (.dwg) of my electrical system.
>
>Alfred
To my knowledge, there are no vacuum-pump, pad-driven alternators
that will produce useful amounts of snort on the 912/914 series
engines. Their pads are just too slow. Didn't somebody on the list
point us to a successful belt driven add-on to the Rotax in a Europa?
I seem to recall having seen photos.
>I am working on a Dyn Aero MCR 4S, to be equipped for IFR flying
>(ad-hoc
>
>avionics, pitot heat...), powered by a Rotax 914 (electrically
>dependant). I know the Rotax alt won't deliver enough power for all my
>stuff. So I need to add a second alternator. I don't have enough room
>in the cowling to put a
>belt driven one, so my only reasonable option is the SD 20. With the
>vacuum
>pump pad turning at 0.54 the engine rpm, it could nearly deliver 20 amp
>at
>5200 RPM, which is not so bad.
This puts your pad at which is 2800. The pad on a lycoming or
continental runs at 1.25 to 1.4 of crankshaft which is about
3200 RPM where the SD-20 is rated. Further, I'm not sure the
SD-20 fits the Rotax.
Have you discussed this with B&C?
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mitch Faatz" <mitchf(at)skybound.com> |
| Subject: | Shunt with essential bus |
Bob (and anyone else) -
I'm trying to figure out how to wire my shunt for my ammeter. The problem is I'm
planning on a small battery bus, and the main bus and essential bus. How can
I wire the shunt so it shows the total load on the system (all three buses)?
Is it possible? I guess at a minimum I want to see the load on the main and
essential buses.
TIA - Mitch Faatz - RV-6A Finish Kit
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
You could use multiple shunts driving the same meter via
a switch...
Matt-
>
>
> Bob (and anyone else) -
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to wire my shunt for my ammeter. The
> problem is I'm planning on a small battery bus, and the main bus and
> essential bus. How can I wire the shunt so it shows the total load on
> the system (all three buses)? Is it possible? I guess at a minimum I
> want to see the load on the main and essential buses.
>
> TIA - Mitch Faatz - RV-6A Finish Kit
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Walter Tondu <walter(at)tondu.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
On 11/14 5:24, Mitch Faatz wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out how to wire my shunt for my ammeter. The problem is
I'm planning on a small battery bus, and the main bus and essential bus. How
can I wire the shunt so it shows the total load on the system (all three buses)?
Is it possible? I guess at a minimum I want to see the load on the main
and essential buses.
How about using a hall effect sensor instead of shunts?
--
Walter Tondu
http://www.rv7-a.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mitch Faatz" <mitchf(at)skybound.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
I'm using a little three gauge cluster from Mitchell, which uses a shunt. I
don't want to have to switch between shunts either, I wonder if you can just
have two or three shunts tie onto the same gauge input and have it work. I
think the output of the shunts is just a 0-50 mv so perhaps it would be
additive?
-Mitch
> > I'm trying to figure out how to wire my shunt for my ammeter. The
problem is I'm planning on a small battery bus, and the main bus and
essential bus. How can I wire the shunt so it shows the total load on the
system (all three buses)? Is it possible? I guess at a minimum I want to
see the load on the main and essential buses.
>
> How about using a hall effect sensor instead of shunts?
>
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| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> microswitches |
| Subject: | Re: smaller fast-on connectors for |
microswitches
microswitches
> microswitches
>
>Thanks, guys, for the feedback. I've ordered some fast-ons from
>ACS - they'll be here in about a week. No NAPA out in my neck
>of the woods!
NAPA is very unlikely to stock PIDG style terminals . . .
Bob . . .
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| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
>
>Bob (and anyone else) -
>
>I'm trying to figure out how to wire my shunt for my ammeter. The problem
>is I'm planning on a small battery bus, and the main bus and essential
>bus. How can I wire the shunt so it shows the total load on the system
>(all three buses)? Is it possible? I guess at a minimum I want to see
>the load on the main and essential buses.
When you put a loadmeter in the alternator b-lead, then it
does exactly what you've asked for . . . total load on the
system. Understand that while the battery is recharging, it
is part of total load but that all goes away after 30 minutes
or so of operation.
Bob . . .
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| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
>
>I'm using a little three gauge cluster from Mitchell, which uses a shunt. I
>don't want to have to switch between shunts either, I wonder if you can just
>have two or three shunts tie onto the same gauge input and have it work. I
>think the output of the shunts is just a 0-50 mv so perhaps it would be
>additive?
No, it takes some special gyrations to "add" the total value of
shunts in different parts of the system. How would you use this
information?
Bob . . .
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| From: | "Mitch Faatz" <mitchf(at)skybound.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
> When you put a loadmeter in the alternator b-lead, then it
> does exactly what you've asked for . . . total load on the
> system. ...
Okay, so I'll put the shunt between the starter contactor and the
master/battery contactor and it will work perfectly except when the battery
contactor is shut off and the essential bus feed turned on, correct?
Thanks again Bob
Mitch Faatz RV-6A Perpetual Finish Kit
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| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: [Bulk] RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT For whom? |
For whom are we buying and installing the "approved"or not 406 MHz GPS ELT,
the 121.5 ELT or what have you?
Be it a simple piece of a mirror, a 406 MHz GPS ELT a 121.5 ELT or what have
you? The `more' effective the device is in bringing survivor(s) or the
remains thereof safely back from the edge of life and death, the `less'
risk, time, and money will be invested by all the souls that play a roll in
carrying out the search, rescue and recovery.
Those of us that consciously venture closer to the "edge" usually know at
least something about the risk to ourselves. We should also be aware of the
consequences and risks our various adventures gone wrong will have on
others. Like it or not, our actions can unnecessarily negatively effect the
Safety health wealth and happiness of an often surprisingly large number of
people should things go sour.
Piloting a privately owned aircraft, boat, skiing or boarding out of bounds
or for that matter any other activity that removes us from our accepted
communication systems and on demand contact with our homes and peer group
thereby brings us just that much closer to the "edge".
I'm suggesting here that should we choose to partake in activities that have
the potential to leave us at the "edge" waiting and hoping that others will
take it upon themselves to risk life and limb on our behalf, we owe it to
them to equip ourselves with what ever information planning and alerting
devices we can reasonably afford and utilize that will effectively reduce
the loss and risk factors for all.
The fact is that whether or not we take others into consideration when we
decide to go off in search of adventure, almost invariably they will be
involved when the crap hits the fan.
The now lowly appreciated and often bad mouthed ELT at one time represented
a break through in safety technology. It most certainly has saved many lives
of both the survivors and those called upon to be their rescuers.
I am inclined therefore to say that the answer to the opening question is;
Whether we think about it or not the purpose of emergency locators no matter
what type, are intended for the benefit of all the parties potentially
involved, not just for our individual selves.
Whether buying a maximum affordable minimum requirement unit or spending for
the best technology doodad available, I hope the above considerations help
soften the blow when the time comes to offer up the cash.
I to hope that the prices for the "approved 406" go down as production ramps
up.
I also look forward to the day that the electronics for this gets so small
that it might become an integral part of every cell and satellite phone for
example.
Great flights and greased landings
Jim in Kelowna
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| From: | "manuel bonniot" <mbonniot(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 914, dual alt |
Hi Bob
I mesured everything and it really seems the SD20 can fit the Rotax.
About Amps, if I refer to the performance data for the SD20 on B&C website,
it produces 18 A/14V at 2500 RPM, and 22 A at 3000 RPM. So, do I misread the
figures ?
Manuel
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AW: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 914, dual alt
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 15:05:35 -0600
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Manuel,
> >
> >The electrical system of my Europa XS (not yet flying) with a Rotax 912S
> >is based on two alternators working in parallel if the power consumtion
> >needs it. The setpoint of the regulator for the Rotax alternator is set
> >at 14.3 V, the setpoint of the regulator for the vacuum drive pad
> >alternator (a SD-8 in my case) is set at 13.8 V. If the power
> >consumption exceeds the output of the Rotax alternator, the bus voltage
> >will fall below 14.3 V and at 13.8 V the SD-8 will come alive. This
> >means the SD-8 works more like a boost alternator than an emergency
> >alternator. If you are interested, I could send you a CAD-file (.dwg) of
> >my electrical system.
> >
> >Alfred
>
> To my knowledge, there are no vacuum-pump, pad-driven alternators
> that will produce useful amounts of snort on the 912/914 series
> engines. Their pads are just too slow. Didn't somebody on the list
> point us to a successful belt driven add-on to the Rotax in a Europa?
> I seem to recall having seen photos.
>
>
> >I am working on a Dyn Aero MCR 4S, to be equipped for IFR flying (ad-hoc
> >
> >avionics, pitot heat...), powered by a Rotax 914 (electrically
> >dependant). I know the Rotax alt won't deliver enough power for all my
> >stuff. So I need
> >to add a second alternator. I don't have enough room in the cowling to
> >put a
> >belt driven one, so my only reasonable option is the SD 20. With the
> >vacuum
> >pump pad turning at 0.54 the engine rpm, it could nearly deliver 20 amp
> >at
> >5200 RPM, which is not so bad.
>
> This puts your pad at which is 2800. The pad on a lycoming or
> continental runs at 1.25 to 1.4 of crankshaft which is about
> 3200 RPM where the SD-20 is rated. Further, I'm not sure the
> SD-20 fits the Rotax.
>
> Have you discussed this with B&C?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
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>
http://messenger.msn.com/
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| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Master Switch Question |
Listers,
Here is an archived post that is a perfect segueway to my question:
Bob/Others I am confused and need help. In Figure Z-13 (utilizing SD-8 alternator)
the DC power master switch is a 2-10. In Figure Z-12 (utilizing SD-20
alternator) the DC power master switch is a 2-3. Why the difference? Is it
that with the 2-10 switch the engine is to be started with this switch in the
center position? Is it that with the 2-10 switch the regulator can be disconnected
from the bus for some reason, perhaps testing? The reason I am asking
is I initially planned to install the SD-8 alternator and wired my panel
accordingly (Figure Z-13) with the 2-10 master power switch. I have since decided
to install the SD-20 which takes me to Figure Z-12 which calls for a 2-3
master power switch. Is it important that I cha
nge out my 2-10 master power switch with a 2-3 switch? If not, what is the purpose
for the center position on the 2-10 switch? A little help would be
appreciated. Thanks. Pete Hunt Clearwater, FL RV-6, Wiring I not sure
if this will help you but, I do know that with a 2-10 switch the center is for
the battery and the top for the alternator.
Close but it's a little more complicated than that. Alternators generally do not
run well without also having a battery on line. Early electrified aircraft used
generators which would come on line and deliver useful, relatively clean energy
without a battery. When generators were removed from certified ships and
replaced with alternators, powers-that-be deduced a need to make sure that an
alternator could not be left on-line without the battery . . . and that the battery
was on-line before the alternator was brought up. This design philosophy
gave birth to the infamous "split rocker" master switch that has been part-and-parcel
of the majority of single engine aircraft architectures for nearly 40
years. I've seen many OBAM aircraft where the builder wanted to use some whippy
looking switches on the panel but had a Cesssna style split rocker switch
enshrined in a place of honor. The 2-10, progressive transfer switch can provide
the same action without having to resort to th
e over-priced split rocker. The 2-10 looks like its brothers and cousins and mounts
in the same nice round hole. Full down turns both battery -AND- alternator
OFF. Mid position turns only the battery ON. Upper position leaves the battery
ON and turns the alternator ON too. If one doesn't want to spend the dollars
and take the time to label a three-position, progressive transfer 2-10 switch,
the 2-3 is a completely acceptable substitute. In this case, battery and alternator
are brought on and off together . . . an entirely satisfactory mode
of operation also. When one uses a pullable breaker for the crowbar OV protection,
there's a panel mounted control that permits an alternator to be taken off
line for battery only ground operations (usually for maintenance) -OR- to take
the alternator off line should it become unstable in flight. If it were my
airplane, I'd probably use a 2-3 switch. It's inexpensive and spares can be acquired
from lots of sources.
Bob . . .
What is the advantage of running the alternator field wire (main bus to pullable
breaker to 6 on LR3C) through a double pole switch? Wouldn't it be equivalent
to use a 1-3 switch for the battery master pull the breaker for the few times
you want to go battery only?
Alternatively, wouldn't it also be equivalent to use the 2-10 switch skip the
pullable breaker?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the difference between switches breakers. Please help.
Thanks,
Grant
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
Hi All-
A couple of data points: That panel mounted ELT switch can of course be
used to start the ELT up before the impact, if one knows the impact is
coming. More important though is the cell phone issue. I accidentally
discovered (no, I never read the manual) that my Nokia cell phone has GPS.
If I wander down the correct menu, it asks if I want the phone to make my
GPS position available ALL THE TIME (as in even when I'm not using the
phone!!!!) or only when calling 911. WOW! Great safety feature, and quite
handy for big brother. This, combined with the fact that PCS phones will
work airborne as long as you're not too high, is a great advantage for us
aviators. If you're going down in the wild, just dial 911 and your
position will be known to someone in the PCS world, if you are in range of
a ground station. If you can talk to the operator and convince them it's
not a prank call, help should be on the way immediately. Another data
point is that my EFIS will have a continuous lat/long readout displayed.
One could broadcast that on the way down to jump start SAR.
FWIW-
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Master Switch Question |
>
>
>Listers,
>
>
>Here is an archived post that is a perfect segueway to my question:
>
>
>Bob/Others I am confused and need help. In Figure Z-13 (utilizing SD-8
>alternator) the DC power master switch is a 2-10. In Figure Z-12
>(utilizing SD-20 alternator) the DC power master switch is a 2-3. Why
>the difference? Is it that with the 2-10 switch the engine is to be
>started with this switch in the center position? Is it that with the 2-10
>switch the regulator can be disconnected from the bus for some reason,
>perhaps testing? The reason I am asking is I initially planned to
>install the SD-8 alternator and wired my panel accordingly (Figure Z-13)
>with the 2-10 master power switch. I have since decided to install the
>SD-20 which takes me to Figure Z-12 which calls for a 2-3 master power
>switch. Is it important that I cha
> nge out my 2-10 master power switch with a 2-3 switch? If not, what is
> the purpose for the center position on the 2-10 switch? A little
> help would be appreciated. Thanks. Pete Hunt Clearwater, FL RV-6,
> Wiring I not sure if this will help you but, I do know that with a
> 2-10 switch the center is for the battery and the top for the alternator.
>
>Close but it's a little more complicated than that. Alternators generally
>do not run well without also having a battery on line. Early electrified
>aircraft used generators which would come on line and deliver useful,
>relatively clean energy without a battery. When generators were removed
>from certified ships and replaced with alternators, powers-that-be deduced
>a need to make sure that an alternator could not be left on-line without
>the battery . . . and that the battery was on-line before the alternator
>was brought up. This design philosophy gave birth to the infamous "split
>rocker" master switch that has been part-and-parcel of the majority of
>single engine aircraft architectures for nearly 40 years. I've seen many
>OBAM aircraft where the builder wanted to use some whippy looking switches
>on the panel but had a Cesssna style split rocker switch enshrined in a
>place of honor. The 2-10, progressive transfer switch can provide the same
>action without having to resort to th
> e over-priced split rocker. The 2-10 looks like its brothers and cousins
> and mounts in the same nice round hole. Full down turns both battery
> -AND- alternator OFF. Mid position turns only the battery ON. Upper
> position leaves the battery ON and turns the alternator ON too. If one
> doesn't want to spend the dollars and take the time to label a
> three-position, progressive transfer 2-10 switch, the 2-3 is a completely
> acceptable substitute. In this case, battery and alternator are brought
> on and off together . . . an entirely satisfactory mode of operation
> also. When one uses a pullable breaker for the crowbar OV protection,
> there's a panel mounted control that permits an alternator to be taken
> off line for battery only ground operations (usually for maintenance)
> -OR- to take the alternator off line should it become unstable in flight.
> If it were my airplane, I'd probably use a 2-3 switch. It's inexpensive
> and spares can be acquired from lots of sources.
>
>Bob . . .
>
>
>What is the advantage of running the alternator field wire (main bus to
>pullable breaker to 6 on LR3C) through a double pole switch? Wouldn't it
>be equivalent to use a 1-3 switch for the battery master pull the breaker
>for the few times you want to go battery only?
If you do as you've suggested, opening the Battery Master switch only
with the engine running will not make the system shut down. The alternator
will probably continue to run self-excited but with unpredictable
performance.
This is why the alternator/battery switch were combined into their current
single two-pole switch configuration when generators (separate battery and
generator switches) were taken off the airplane. In the Z-figures, when
you turn the DC PWR MASTER switch OFF, the system goes completely dark
at operation of the one switch and without risk of leaving an alternator
on line after the battery is taken off.
> Alternatively, wouldn't it also be equivalent to use the 2-10
> switch skip the pullable breaker?
Sure, you still need the breaker if you're using the crowbar ov
protection scheme but it need not be pullable.
>Maybe I'm misunderstanding the difference between switches breakers.
>Please help.
Switches control things, breakers protect things. There are ways
folks have attempted to combine their functions over the years but
they are not cost or performance effective in the architectures
depicted in Appendix Z.
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt with essential bus |
>
> > When you put a loadmeter in the alternator b-lead, then it
> > does exactly what you've asked for . . . total load on the
> > system. ...
>
>Okay, so I'll put the shunt between the starter contactor and the
>master/battery contactor and it will work perfectly except when the battery
>contactor is shut off and the essential bus feed turned on, correct?
No, that would run starter current through the shunt. All of the
Z-figures suggest wiring ammeters as alternator loadmeters. Shunts
in the b-lead of the alternator. What information do you perceive
is not available to you with this configuration?
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | echristley(at)nc.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 406 Mhz GPS ELT |
Matejcek"
>
> Hi All-
> I
> accidentallydiscovered (no, I never read the
manual) that my Nokia
> cell phone has GPS.
> If I wander down the correct menu, it asks if I
want the phone to
> make my
> GPS position available ALL THE TIME (as in even
when I'm not using the
> phone!!!!) or only when calling 911. WOW! Great
safety feature,
> and quite
> handy for big brother.
All new cell phones sold in the US have this
'feature', again per federal law. I was pushed
through under the guise of helping to find 911
callers, but I think it had more to do with finding
drug traffickers (at least the ones smart enough not
to set up a deal from their hotel room).
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________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Bob,
This is just to ask if you received the diagrams I tried to send you, and if
you had time to have a look at them.
I know you're busy but I would really appreciate any hints as to how to
conduct mmy investigations.
Thanks,
Regards,
Gilles
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LVWM questions |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>This is just to ask if you received the diagrams I tried to send you, and if
>you had time to have a look at them.
>I know you're busy but I would really appreciate any hints as to how to
>conduct mmy investigations.
Yes, I have them. REALLY preoccupied right now. Had to put my dad
in the hospital last Wednesday and given that I'm executor of his
estate and power of attorney on his business activities, it's pretty
busy. I'll see if I can get to them this evening.
November 05, 2004 - November 15, 2004
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-dr