AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-eo
June 21, 2005 - July 06, 2005
>>field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
>>hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
>>
>>
>
> There is an article on the net that speaks to such a modification
> on a "presolite" that looks like an ND alternator (both are probably
> made by bosch!). See:
>
>http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
---
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
For a 1-chip capacitance-to-analog solution one might look at:
http://www.qprox.com/downloads/datasheets/qt301_106.pdf
It would require some experimenting with the sampling capacitor (Cs).
It would also need a high-impedance voltmeter (or a voltage follower -
there's chip nr 2)).
And the scale might not turn out quite linear (if Cx2 not much larger
than Cx2-Cx1).
But one may want to separately calibrate a scale for volume instead of
level anyway.
QT301 is $3.84 at Digikey, either 8-DIP or 8-SOIC.
QT300 and QT117L are both raw-output 16-bit capacitance-to-digital
converters (not all bits usable in any particular setup)
QT300 is $3.84 too, 8-SOIC.
QT117L is the simpler of the 2 but not at Digikey at all.
Not so timely, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Loan Analysis |
Hi Marty,
It looks like many of the current specs you listed were peak, or max
values. 2.2A for an audio panel would be a lot. That's about 25watts -
enough to make very loud noises. 6A for a comm radio is a lot also.
That's better than 75watts. Even assuming 50% efficiency, you'd be
broadcasting better than 35watts. Most aircraft comm radios are in the
5-10watt range.
This issue seems to come up again and again.. People budget their
alternator size on the spec listed by the manufacturer. Manufacturers
don't give average operating current, usually just peak, or the size of
the breaker they'd like to see on the device. In the semiconductor
industry, that would just be unacceptable. We as a group of aircraft
engineers (that's the work we are doing) should start demanding better
datasheets from avionics manufacturers. Operating current specs with
their product in its various modes.
Regards,
Matt-
Emrath wrote:
>
>Bob and fellow Listers,
>I've completed the suggested load analysis chart but no matter what I seem
>to come up with the following loads, during night VFR decent.
>
> Battery Buss Endurance Buss Main Buss Total
>Day VFR 1.65 10.95 7.88 20.48 Amp
>Night VFR 1.65 11.95 31.88 45.48 amp
>Night VFR Decent 5.65 11.95 31.88 49.48 Amp
>IFR Night Decent 5.65 11.95 21.88 39.48 Amp
>So, looks like I need the 60 B&C Alt. These totals do not include Com Radio
>Transmit loads or use of the power ports. I am sending a copy of the Excel
>file directly to you for better review, but I know the Matronics List will
>strip the attachment from this posting.
>
>Here's the proposed equipment listing:
>
>MAIN BUSS
>Flaps Motor Van's 3.000 est.
>Starter Contactor B&C 1.000 est.
>Pitot Heat Warren Gretz 8.000
>Strobe Lights Whelen 2.750
>Nav Lights 6.000
>Taxi Lights 9.000
>Land Lights 9.000
>Main Voltage Regulator B&C 2.000 est.
>Auto Pilot - Navaid Ind. 0.125
>Auto Pilot - Navaid Servo .75~3.6A 2.000 est.
>Power Port 2.000
>Battery Contactor B&C 1.000 est.
>
>
>TOTAL MAIN BUSS 45.875
>
>
>ENDURANCE BUSS
>
>Audio panel Garmin 2.200
>Garmin 430 GPS Garmin 430 1.400
>Garmin 430 NAV Garmin 430 0.250
>Garmin 430 COMM Garmin 430 6.000
>OBS 0.250
>Garmin Transponder Garmin 1.000
>Aux Voltage Regulator 2.000 est.
>Attitude IndicatorB.F.Goodrich0.750
>Directional Gyro RC Allen 0.750
>Turn Coordinator 0.750
>UBG-16 Electronics Int'l 0.500
>Oil Press/Temp EI 0.300
>Amps/Volts EI 0.200
>Fuel Level EI 0.300
>Fuel Totalizer EI 0.300
>LED Panel Lighting 1.000
>
>TOTAL ENDURANCE BUSS 17.950
>
>BATTERY BUSS
>Super Clock 0.300
>Jeff Rose EIS (switched) 0.750
>RPM EI (switched) 0.300
>MANIFOLD EI (switched) 0.300
>Fuel Boost Pump (switched) 4.000 est.
>Power Port 2.000
>
>TOTAL BATTERY BUSS 7.650
>
>As you can see, I'm planning an all electric panel, a Jeff Rose EIS, high
>pressure fuel pump for Fuel Injected Lyc with C/S prop. Some of my power
>loads are estimates right now. Perhaps you can tell me how to better
>configure this system given that we need to try and keep the battery buss
>plus endurance buss loads to 6 amps or less (I don't like the small relay
>idea for loads above this). One thing I'm contemplating is moving all the
>EI instruments to the Main Buss except for the RPM and put that on the
>Endurance Buss.
>
>I would sure apprecitate your thoughts, thanks for all your help.
>Marty in Brentwood TN, RV6A
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Airframe ground joints |
>Comments/Questions: Dear Bob, I noted you made a posting in April on local
>grounds in the wings. You stated that doping the mating surfaces with
>"Silicon grease" would improve corrosion resistance. I'm building an RV7A
>that will be operated in a tropical environment and I'm very interested in
>corrosion control.
>
>Could you please tell me what is the name of a brand of acceptable silicon
>grease and where I could get it. I can't seem to find one in the Aircraft
>Spruce catalogue. Also, I would've thought silicon would be a non
>conductor and a thin film could adversely affect the performance of the
>ground. Why is this not the case.
First, the quality of a clean and smooth joint clamped up
with enough pressure to bring terminal and sheet metal
together in a gas tight connection will not be enhanced by
any magic glops or goops.
However, since smoothness may be difficult to control
one might offset the existence of microscopic openings to
the joint by application of some material likely to stay
in microscopic openings and offer some barrier to moisture and
corrosive gasses.
This can be about any material that is not itself antagonistic
to the metals. Liquid gasket materials from car parts stores
are good. Silicone grease (Dow Corning DC-4 comes to mind . .
but my tube is 40 years old and only 1/3 gone . . . don't know
were I'd look for another one). I would avoid vinegar smelling
RTV but the neutral smelling (electronic grades) are okay.
Dope the surfaces of the joint before you clamp them up. Where
you have achieved proper pressure in the joint, all sealant
will be extruded from the joint. Only fissures that didn't
close will contain remnants of sealant.
Having offered all this, your concerns are making a mountain out of
a mole-hill. Gazillions of dry, bolted-up joints have been performing
as intended for decades. Get the surfaces clean with scotch-brite,
bolt down with no smaller than #8 hardware torqued to limits
with metal lock nuts. Use heaviest available flat washers under
head of screw -AND- under the nut to provide stiffness to the
clamp up forces and your ground joints are going to be just
fine until long after the airplane has been scrapped. But if you
want to dope the joints, it won't hurt.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Load Analysis |
>
>Bob and fellow Listers,
>I've completed the suggested load analysis chart but no matter what I seem
>to come up with the following loads, during night VFR decent.
>
> Battery Buss Endurance Buss Main Buss Total
>Day VFR 1.65 10.95 7.88 20.48 Amp
>Night VFR 1.65 11.95 31.88 45.48 amp
>Night VFR Decent 5.65 11.95 31.88 49.48 Amp
>IFR Night Decent 5.65 11.95 21.88 39.48 Amp
>So, looks like I need the 60 B&C Alt. These totals do not include Com Radio
>Transmit loads or use of the power ports. I am sending a copy of the Excel
>file directly to you for better review, but I know the Matronics List will
>strip the attachment from this posting.
>
>Here's the proposed equipment listing:
>
>MAIN BUSS
>Flaps Motor Van's 3.000 est.
>Starter Contactor B&C 1.000 est.
>Pitot Heat Warren Gretz 8.000
>Strobe Lights Whelen 2.750
>Nav Lights 6.000
>Taxi Lights 9.000
>Land Lights 9.000
>Main Voltage Regulator B&C 2.000 est.
>Auto Pilot - Navaid Ind. 0.125
>Auto Pilot - Navaid Servo .75~3.6A 2.000 est.
>Power Port 2.000
>Battery Contactor B&C 1.000 est.
>
>
>TOTAL MAIN BUSS 45.875
>
>
>ENDURANCE BUSS
>
>Audio panel Garmin 2.200
>Garmin 430 GPS Garmin 430 1.400
>Garmin 430 NAV Garmin 430 0.250
>Garmin 430 COMM Garmin 430 6.000
>OBS 0.250
>Garmin Transponder Garmin 1.000
>Aux Voltage Regulator 2.000 est.
>Attitude IndicatorB.F.Goodrich0.750
>Directional Gyro RC Allen 0.750
>Turn Coordinator 0.750
>UBG-16 Electronics Int'l 0.500
>Oil Press/Temp EI 0.300
>Amps/Volts EI 0.200
>Fuel Level EI 0.300
>Fuel Totalizer EI 0.300
>LED Panel Lighting 1.000
>
>TOTAL ENDURANCE BUSS 17.950
>
>BATTERY BUSS
>Super Clock 0.300
>Jeff Rose EIS (switched) 0.750
>RPM EI (switched) 0.300
>MANIFOLD EI (switched) 0.300
>Fuel Boost Pump (switched) 4.000 est.
>Power Port 2.000
>
>TOTAL BATTERY BUSS 7.650
>
>As you can see, I'm planning an all electric panel, a Jeff Rose EIS, high
>pressure fuel pump for Fuel Injected Lyc with C/S prop. Some of my power
>loads are estimates right now. Perhaps you can tell me how to better
>configure this system given that we need to try and keep the battery buss
>plus endurance buss loads to 6 amps or less (I don't like the small relay
>idea for loads above this). One thing I'm contemplating is moving all the
>EI instruments to the Main Buss except for the RPM and put that on the
>Endurance Buss.
First, which Z-figure are you contemplating? Keep in mind that
an "endurance bus" is for continued cruising flight sans alternator
so as to get the most efficient used of limited resource . . .
energy in battery.
If you have an aux alternator of any size, then the term "endurance
bus" becomes less meaningful because you have second engine driven
power source that is not limited as to duration.
If you don't have a second alternator, then there's way too much
stuff on the e-bus. Get the loads down to the bare minimums for
sustained cruising flight for some duration you choose (fuel
aboard?) and KNOWN battery capacity in a device that you've chosen
and MAINTAINED well.
Since you're talking about electrically driven flight instruments,
I'll assume you have no vacuum pump and that you plan not to waste
a perfectly good drive pad by covering it up with a plate.
So, with a minimum of 8A continuous output available with
a crapped main alternator, then the e-bus is really just
an aux alternator bus with multiple feed paths. So, load it
to 8A (less battery bus loads) and quit.
If your design goals don't allow this (you insist on having
EVERYTHING working ALL THE TIME then you need a 20A aux alternator
and Z-14 is probably your better architecture. The e-bus goes
away.
You're correct, loads cited are for the most part, too large.
You need to get the real numbers before you can make any
meaningful decision. For example, IFR cruise runs no exterior
lights. If you're contemplating a Z-13 installation, provide
a means for reducing e-bus + battery bus loads to less than
8A. Do you run the fuel pump all the time or only during
failure of an engine driven pump. An electronic ignition that
needs 5A of supply current should be trashed in favor of one
that is 2A or less.
You list an AUX Voltage regulator . . . what is this? Regulators
do not have independent power requirements. They
operate on current allotted for supplying the alternator field
which is NOT deducted from the alternator's output ratings.
The largest full-up, all electric IFR load I've calculated to
date for a 14v airplane has been 27A. The 0.3A numbers for
all your instruments seems excessive. If I designed them, they
would be 0.1A max and probably lower.
1A for LED panel lighting? A C-172 uses a panel flood that
draws 0.2A max and .08A in cruising flight. Led lighting
should be on the same order or less.
Unless you're into really grand arrivals, consider how much
lighting you really need to have on in order to find your
way from the runway to parking in an orderly fashion.
I think you're going to find that a 40A machine is sufficient
and that an 8A alternator is a most adequate back-up for an
already very reliable 40A machine.
I've copied your load analysis spread sheet to my server at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Beeline%20load_analysis.xls
I'll encourage others to download, review, and offer current values
for things they may have measured or have data for.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Aux Batter Management Module |
Hi Guys,
I bought the Low Voltage Warning and Auxiliary Battery Management Module (ABMM)
because I have two batteries installed (Odyssey 680s).
After reading the instruction manual it seems I may not need it.
My setup is: Harmon Rocket, 1mag, 1 electronic ignition (electroair), B&C 40 amp
alt with voltage regulator and low voltage warning light (LR3c).
I'm thinking that since I don't have a stby alternator or electrically dependent
engine, I probably don't need a unit that is designed to shut the aux battery
down in the event of a primary alternator failure. Wouldn't it be just fine
to continue on to destination or nearest suitable field as appropriate with both
batteries on, while monitoring my volt meter?
And since I already have a warning light in the LR3c voltage regulator, I don't
need that function either, do I.
Anyone able to confirm my line of thinking?
Thanks,
Jim Stone
Louisville
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Dual Voltage System |
| From: | marknlisa(at)hometel.com |
Dilemma:
Must use 28 VDC starter; have already planned for 14 VDC system. Have
been thru the archives on Dual Voltage systems and this particular problem
hasn't been addressed.
Can I run two 12 VDC batteries in series to power the starter, but still
get 12 VDC power for accessories? If so, how?
Thanks for any help,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | Intercom / Iso Amp Connection |
I'm trying to wrap my head around my audio setup. I've just read the DIY
ISO Amp document as well as the new Chapter 18 on Audio systems. I think I
have it figured out but I do have two questions.
Can I output the audio from one of the DIY isolation amplifiers INTO a MIC
input on my PM 501 Mono Intercom?? I think the output of a microphone is
much less than most devices.
How do I wire the stereo output (MP3) into a mono input (ISO Amp). I have 4
devices that generate tones so that doesn't leave me with two inputs on the
ISO Amp for stereo input. Since everything else is mono, I don't
particularly require stereo, so would like to just wire both channels of
stereo into a single mono connection.
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Finish Kit)
#90569
<http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
EAA Chapter 1329 President
EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Connection to main bus |
A quick question to the group. I am using drawing Z-16 Rotax 912, I have my
battery and battery contactor behind the passenger seat in my Zenith 701 and
not on the firewall.
Should I:
1) Run the 4 AWG wire from the battery contactor up thru the firewall,
connect to the
starter contacter, then run a separate wire from the starter contacter
back thru the
firewall to the main bus.
2) Run the 4 AWG wire from the battery contactor to the main bus fuse
block, then run
from the fuseblock thru the firewall to the starter contactor.
3) Run the 4 AWG wire from the battery contactor to a standalone terminal
from west marine
to a location up near the firewall and then 2 4AWG split from this
terminal to the main bus
and another thru the firewall to the starter contactor.
Thanks
Brian
_http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/_
(http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Intercom / Iso Amp Connection |
Matthew Brandes wrote:
>
>I'm trying to wrap my head around my audio setup. I've just read the DIY
>ISO Amp document as well as the new Chapter 18 on Audio systems. I think I
>have it figured out but I do have two questions.
>
>Can I output the audio from one of the DIY isolation amplifiers INTO a MIC
>input on my PM 501 Mono Intercom?? I think the output of a microphone is
>much less than most devices.
>
>How do I wire the stereo output (MP3) into a mono input (ISO Amp). I have 4
>devices that generate tones so that doesn't leave me with two inputs on the
>ISO Amp for stereo input. Since everything else is mono, I don't
>particularly require stereo, so would like to just wire both channels of
>stereo into a single mono connection.
>
>
>Matthew Brandes,
>Van's RV-9A (Finish Kit)
>#90569
> <http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
>
Hi Matthew,
Not likely to be a good idea to feed the iso amp into a mic input; the
mic input has much higher gain than the regular audio inputs. Unsure why
you might need to do that; do you need extra inputs? Other options are
available to do this if needed.
You can make a 'summing' combiner using 2 each 10k ohm resistors, one
on each mp3 output & the other ends tied together to feed into the
destination.
If you don't mind me asking, what are the other sources you are feeding
into the iso amp? (The reason for asking is that most stuff doesn't need
the amp; it's usually just needed for consumer audio gear like the mp3
player.)
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connection to main bus |
Well, Number 1 is a bad idea and not necessary.
In Number 2 you are implying that you need 4AWG to the main fuse block,
which you don't. You only need 4 gauge to the starter because of the huge
currents.
Number 3 is probably closest to reality, except that the run from the
splitter to the main fuse block can be much smaller gauge wire, sized to
accomodate the maximum loads and the distance of the run.
But basically you're asking where the tap should be, and since it's all DC,
it doesn't really matter and it's more your preference due to location
constraints more than anything else.
Use one of these http://www.quickcar.net/electric/57700.html to get the
high current wire through the firewall.
Dave Morris
At 06:56 PM 6/22/2005, you wrote:
>
>A quick question to the group. I am using drawing Z-16 Rotax 912, I have my
>battery and battery contactor behind the passenger seat in my Zenith 701 and
>not on the firewall.
>
>Should I:
>
>1) Run the 4 AWG wire from the battery contactor up thru the firewall,
>connect to the
> starter contacter, then run a separate wire from the starter contacter
>back thru the
> firewall to the main bus.
>
>2) Run the 4 AWG wire from the battery contactor to the main bus fuse
>block, then run
> from the fuseblock thru the firewall to the starter contactor.
>
>3) Run the 4 AWG wire from the battery contactor to a standalone terminal
>from west marine
> to a location up near the firewall and then 2 4AWG split from this
>terminal to the main bus
> and another thru the firewall to the starter contactor.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Brian
>
>_http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/_
>(http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Load Analysis Revisited |
Bob, and others, thanks for all your thoughts and comments about this. I'm
planning on using Z-13 as a quide, All Electric ship with the SD-8. Good to
know that the regulators don't draw any load, so the alternator output is
net output and not gross output.
Since posting this request for help, I've learned that the Jeff Rose EIS
system draws 0.75 amps continuous, so that should be changed. I've yet to
measure my aux. fuel pump but will do so this weekend and report back,
however, I'm moving it to the main buss since if needed on landing I'll just
have to turn the master on to power that and the lights, but hey we're
almost home at that point (hopefully).
The panel lighting was a total swaq, but now we know that can be reduced but
I've also got to figure something for the back lighting of the Electronic
International instruments which might be 100ma each (eight instruments). I
will try contacting EI to find out exactly what the continuously run loads
are because the numbers I used sound like the wire/fuse load. I've also
learned that my strobe allotment might be too small and that might be
higher, anyone know what a single power supply for a three strobe ship will
require? What about the Garmin Audio Panel?
I'll send Bob my next revision tonight and perhaps he can post that in lieu
of my first attempt. My IFR cruise is 23.2amps (based on my estimated
numbers) and my VFR Night Cruise with all the lights on is 46.2 amps. My
battery buss is 1.05 amp and the endurance buss is 6.15 amp having moved the
audio panel to the main and kept the power to the gps and nav on the Garmin
430 on the Endurance which I'm not sure is OK ---any comments to that?
Keep those comments coming, all good ones so far, thanks.
Marty
Subject: Re: Load Analysis
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III (nuckollsr(at)cox.net)
Date: Wed Jun 22 - 8:02 AM
>
>Bob and fellow Listers,
>I've completed the suggested load analysis chart but no matter what I seem
>to come up with the following loads, during night VFR decent.
>
> Battery Buss Endurance Buss Main Buss Total
>Day VFR 1.65 10.95 7.88 20.48 Amp
>Night VFR 1.65 11.95 31.88 45.48 amp
>Night VFR Decent 5.65 11.95 31.88 49.48 Amp
>IFR Night Decent 5.65 11.95 21.88 39.48 Amp
>So, looks like I need the 60 B&C Alt. These totals do not include Com Radio
>Transmit loads or use of the power ports. I am sending a copy of the Excel
>file directly to you for better review, but I know the Matronics List will
>strip the attachment from this posting.
<> <>
First, which Z-figure are you contemplating? Keep in mind that
an "endurance bus" is for continued cruising flight sans alternator
so as to get the most efficient used of limited resource . . .
energy in battery.
If you have an aux alternator of any size, then the term "endurance
bus" becomes less meaningful because you have second engine driven
power source that is not limited as to duration.
If you don't have a second alternator, then there's way too much
stuff on the e-bus. Get the loads down to the bare minimums for
sustained cruising flight for some duration you choose (fuel
aboard?) and KNOWN battery capacity in a device that you've chosen
and MAINTAINED well.
Since you're talking about electrically driven flight instruments,
I'll assume you have no vacuum pump and that you plan not to waste
a perfectly good drive pad by covering it up with a plate.
So, with a minimum of 8A continuous output available with
a crapped main alternator, then the e-bus is really just
an aux alternator bus with multiple feed paths. So, load it
to 8A (less battery bus loads) and quit.
If your design goals don't allow this (you insist on having
EVERYTHING working ALL THE TIME then you need a 20A aux alternator
and Z-14 is probably your better architecture. The e-bus goes
away.
You're correct, loads cited are for the most part, too large.
You need to get the real numbers before you can make any
meaningful decision. For example, IFR cruise runs no exterior
lights. If you're contemplating a Z-13 installation, provide
a means for reducing e-bus + battery bus loads to less than
8A. Do you run the fuel pump all the time or only during
failure of an engine driven pump. An electronic ignition that
needs 5A of supply current should be trashed in favor of one
that is 2A or less.
You list an AUX Voltage regulator . . . what is this? Regulators
do not have independent power requirements. They
operate on current allotted for supplying the alternator field
which is NOT deducted from the alternator's output ratings.
The largest full-up, all electric IFR load I've calculated to
date for a 14v airplane has been 27A. The 0.3A numbers for
all your instruments seems excessive. If I designed them, they
would be 0.1A max and probably lower.
1A for LED panel lighting? A C-172 uses a panel flood that
draws 0.2A max and .08A in cruising flight. Led lighting
should be on the same order or less.
Unless you're into really grand arrivals, consider how much
lighting you really need to have on in order to find your
way from the runway to parking in an orderly fashion.
I think you're going to find that a 40A machine is sufficient
and that an 8A alternator is a most adequate back-up for an
already very reliable 40A machine.
I've copied your load analysis spread sheet to my server at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Beeline%20load_analysis.xls
I'll encourage others to download, review, and offer current values
for things they may have measured or have data for.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Load Analysis Revisited |
Listers:
I found an old email reply from Electronics International and the
instruments draw 100ma nominal and if back lighting is used and draw another
200ma at max. So, I'm planning on wiring the backlighting to the endurance
buss and just turn the light down or off and momentarily light them if
needed.
Marty
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
>
>For a 1-chip capacitance-to-analog solution one might look at:
>http://www.qprox.com/downloads/datasheets/qt301_106.pdf
>
>It would require some experimenting with the sampling capacitor (Cs).
>It would also need a high-impedance voltmeter (or a voltage follower -
>there's chip nr 2)).
>And the scale might not turn out quite linear (if Cx2 not much larger
>than Cx2-Cx1).
>But one may want to separately calibrate a scale for volume instead of
>level anyway.
>
>QT301 is $3.84 at Digikey, either 8-DIP or 8-SOIC.
>
>QT300 and QT117L are both raw-output 16-bit capacitance-to-digital
>converters (not all bits usable in any particular setup)
>QT300 is $3.84 too, 8-SOIC.
>QT117L is the simpler of the 2 but not at Digikey at all.
>
>Not so timely, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Neat chip. I'll order some the next time I place a Digikey order.
This appears to be an excellent candidate for teaming with
a small micro-controller where one could do a direct measurement
of output duty cycle and convert to a value suited for transmission
by something more robust and versatile . . . serial data perhaps?
I'll toss this out to some of my fellow design wienies at RAC
and see what they come up with.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connection to main bus |
>Use one of these http://www.quickcar.net/electric/57700.html to get the
>high current wire through the firewall.
These are very useful if you don't want your firewall to be
a firewall anymore but simply a temporary barrier between
you and smelly things going on up front.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
and
http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual Voltage System |
>
>Dilemma:
>
>Must use 28 VDC starter; have already planned for 14 VDC system. Have
>been thru the archives on Dual Voltage systems and this particular problem
>hasn't been addressed.
>
>Can I run two 12 VDC batteries in series to power the starter, but still
>get 12 VDC power for accessories? If so, how?
Dual voltage systems are generally practical only for items
that draw very little current where a small DC/DC converter
will suffice.
Why are you saddled with a 24v starter?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | How many busses? |
I'm going to have about six groups of three each P&B W-31 switch circuit
breakers in my RV-8A. No need to address the fact I'm using CBs instead of fuses.
I understand those reasons, but I want to use CBs.
What I need to know is whether or not each group of three CBs should be
called a buss? Or should I call multiple groups of 3 each CBs a buss? Does it
really matter? Any problem with having, say, six "busses?"
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | How many busses? |
Normal practice is to connect all CBs with a common brass strip on the
power side. All CBs connected to the same ganged brass strips are a
buss. So, you would have 2 electrically separated brass power strips,
one for your main buss and another for your endurance buss.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: How many busses?
I'm going to have about six groups of three each P&B W-31 switch circuit
breakers in my RV-8A. No need to address the fact I'm using CBs instead
of fuses.
I understand those reasons, but I want to use CBs.
What I need to know is whether or not each group of three CBs should be
called a buss? Or should I call multiple groups of 3 each CBs a buss?
Does it
really matter? Any problem with having, say, six "busses?"
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Load Analysis Revisited |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
> What about the Garmin Audio Panel?
We measured it to be 0.56 amps
John Schroeder
PS: I'd keep the 430 on the E buss and try not to transmit much. :-))
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Intercom / Iso Amp Connection |
Thanks Charlie... I knew I would get asked what devices, most are warning
tone inputs.
PM 501 Intercom (4-place, one input for Aux/Music)
KX 155 Nav/Com (Audio)
KLN 89B GPS (Tone)
Marker Beacon (RST) (Tones)
Low Level Fuel Warning (Tone)
EIS 4000 Engine Monitor (Tone)
MP3 Player (Audio)
and any future device?
Trying to figure out how to wire/combine all these tone generators into my
audio. The DIY ISO Amp has 5 inputs. If I run my MP3 as mono, I can get
all into one ISO Amp but then what happens if I have one more device?
(PS - I have NO electronics skill whatsoever.. I have a very basic
understanding)
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Finish Kit)
#90569
http://www.n523rv.com
EAA Chapter 1329 President
EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
> From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intercom / Iso Amp Connection
>
>
>
> Matthew Brandes wrote:
>
>
> >
> >I'm trying to wrap my head around my audio setup. I've just
> read the DIY
> >ISO Amp document as well as the new Chapter 18 on Audio
> systems. I think I
> >have it figured out but I do have two questions.
> >
> >Can I output the audio from one of the DIY isolation
> amplifiers INTO a MIC
> >input on my PM 501 Mono Intercom?? I think the output of a
> microphone is
> >much less than most devices.
> >
> >How do I wire the stereo output (MP3) into a mono input (ISO
> Amp). I have 4
> >devices that generate tones so that doesn't leave me with
> two inputs on the
> >ISO Amp for stereo input. Since everything else is mono, I don't
> >particularly require stereo, so would like to just wire both
> channels of
> >stereo into a single mono connection.
> >
> >
> >Matthew Brandes,
> >Van's RV-9A (Finish Kit)
> >#90569
> > <http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
> >
>
> Hi Matthew,
>
> Not likely to be a good idea to feed the iso amp into a mic
> input; the
> mic input has much higher gain than the regular audio inputs.
> Unsure why
> you might need to do that; do you need extra inputs? Other
> options are
> available to do this if needed.
>
> You can make a 'summing' combiner using 2 each 10k ohm resistors, one
> on each mp3 output & the other ends tied together to feed into the
> destination.
>
> If you don't mind me asking, what are the other sources you
> are feeding
> into the iso amp? (The reason for asking is that most stuff
> doesn't need
> the amp; it's usually just needed for consumer audio gear
> like the mp3
> player.)
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How many busses? |
>
>I'm going to have about six groups of three each P&B W-31 switch circuit
>breakers in my RV-8A. No need to address the fact I'm using CBs instead
>of fuses.
> I understand those reasons, but I want to use CBs.
>What I need to know is whether or not each group of three CBs should be
>called a buss? Or should I call multiple groups of 3 each CBs a
>buss? Does it
>really matter? Any problem with having, say, six "busses?"
A "bus" is a common feeder for two or more power taps.
It's not uncommon for a breaker panel to have multiple
rows of breakers stacked one above the other with a
single bus conductor that zig-zags down the column of
rows supplying a ONE PIECE means of distributing power
to all of the breakers. The term "bus" is an electrical
term, not a mechanical term.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How many busses? |
Good Morning Bob,
Just a small question concerning proper technical
English.
I note that Speedy 11 has used the term 'Buss' as in
Buss Bar where you use the term 'Bus' for the same
purpose.
It is my very shaky recollection that I was taught
many years ago that when referring to an electrical
device, the spelling 'buss' was proper.
Were we oldsters taught wrong, has the convention
changed, do we remember wrong, or is it of absolutely
no significance whatsoever?
I did check my dictionary and the only listing it has
for 'buss' is as an old English substitute for a kiss.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Stearman 3977A
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
> Nuckolls, III"
>
>
> Speedy11(at)aol.com
> >
> >I'm going to have about six groups of three each
> P&B W-31 switch circuit
> >breakers in my RV-8A. No need to address the fact
> I'm using CBs instead
> >of fuses.
> > I understand those reasons, but I want to use
> CBs.
> >What I need to know is whether or not each group of
> three CBs should be
> >called a buss? Or should I call multiple groups of
> 3 each CBs a
> >buss? Does it
> >really matter? Any problem with having, say, six
> "busses?"
>
> A "bus" is a common feeder for two or more power
> taps.
> It's not uncommon for a breaker panel to have
> multiple
> rows of breakers stacked one above the other with
> a
> single bus conductor that zig-zags down the
> column of
> rows supplying a ONE PIECE means of distributing
> power
> to all of the breakers. The term "bus" is an
> electrical
> term, not a mechanical term.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connection to main bus |
Why is that? Do you think the material might not stand up to heat? I
presumed that since they are manufactured by 3 or 4 different companies for
racing applications, they are probably pretty good.
Dave Morris
At 10:17 PM 6/22/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >Use one of these http://www.quickcar.net/electric/57700.html to get the
> >high current wire through the firewall.
>
>
> These are very useful if you don't want your firewall to be
> a firewall anymore but simply a temporary barrier between
> you and smelly things going on up front.
>
> See:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
>
>and
>
>http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | D Sub connector pin out question |
Bob & Listers,
I'm drawing up several wiring schematics for my RV-8A using AutoCAD. A
number of items in my system use 9, 15 or 25 pin D Subminature connectors.
The manufacturer manuals show that pin number one is on the top (wider)
row, left hand side. My question is:
How is this viewed? Am I looking at the rear of the connector? Which
connector, the male or the female?
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | D Sub connector pin out question |
I believe it is from the back, if you have the connectors already check the
back, most of them are numbered
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Subject: AeroElectric-List: D Sub connector pin out question
Bob & Listers,
I'm drawing up several wiring schematics for my RV-8A using AutoCAD. A
number of items in my system use 9, 15 or 25 pin D Subminature connectors.
The manufacturer manuals show that pin number one is on the top (wider)
row, left hand side. My question is:
How is this viewed? Am I looking at the rear of the connector? Which
connector, the male or the female?
Charlie Kuss
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Connection to main bus |
In a message dated 06/23/2005 11:22:36 AM Central Standard Time,
BigD(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
Why is that? Do you think the material might not stand up to heat?
>>>
My guess would be risk- I'd think fire in a race car is quickly detected
followed by rapid egress from vehicle and dudes in fire suits blasting away- how
fast can you get out of an RV at 8000'? How long do you think the plastic
insulator will last? (well, it LOOKS like plastic) If ceramic, it might outlast
the fire...
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connection to main bus |
>
>Why is that? Do you think the material might not stand up to heat? I
>presumed that since they are manufactured by 3 or 4 different companies for
>racing applications, they are probably pretty good.
What's "pretty good"? For us to put a hole in the firewall
of a certified ship, the penetration hardware has to stand off
a fuel fed fire for 10 minutes as I recall. We have propane
fueled test tool for proving the technology being considered.
I believe a thermocouple mounted an inch or so off the firewall
surface is maintained at or above 2,000F for the duration
of the test.
There are no plastics I'm aware of that will pass this test
and I doubt that the device cited in the link will pass
the test either.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D Sub connector pin out question |
Charlie -
The D-Subs in my bin are numbered as follows:
-- Pin 1 is at the top left when viewing the D-Sub from the front
(looking at the pins or the 'mating side' of the connector).
-- Socket 1 is at the top right when viewing the D-Sub from the front
(looking into the sockets or the 'mating side' of the connector).
If the manual is for a 'black box' they're likely showing you the
connector face... so it sounds like they're using D-Sub's with pins (1
at top left) on their hardware.
Hope that helps...
D
Charlie Kuss wrote:
>
> Bob & Listers,
> I'm drawing up several wiring schematics for my RV-8A using AutoCAD. A
> number of items in my system use 9, 15 or 25 pin D Subminature connectors.
> The manufacturer manuals show that pin number one is on the top (wider)
> row, left hand side. My question is:
> How is this viewed? Am I looking at the rear of the connector? Which
> connector, the male or the female?
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: How many busses? |
>
>
>Good Morning Bob,
>
>Just a small question concerning proper technical
>English.
>
>I note that Speedy 11 has used the term 'Buss' as in
>Buss Bar where you use the term 'Bus' for the same
>purpose.
>
>It is my very shaky recollection that I was taught
>many years ago that when referring to an electrical
>device, the spelling 'buss' was proper.
>
>Were we oldsters taught wrong, has the convention
>changed, do we remember wrong, or is it of absolutely
>no significance whatsoever?
>
>I did check my dictionary and the only listing it has
>for 'buss' is as an old English substitute for a kiss.
Yup. At Cessna (1965) and every job I've had since, they
are referred to as a "bus". Folks often forget
to take the second "s" off when paring down from
plural busses to a singular bus. Further, the brand
name Bussmann and their foreshortening of the
trade name for other marketing names (Buss-Power,
has been cited as a strong influence for
misspelling the word as well.
A Google search on "power distribution buss"
yielded 67 hits. A search on "power distribution
bus" yielded 1020 hits.
Bob . . .
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>Stearman 3977A
>
>--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>wrote:
> > Nuckolls, III"
> >
> >
> > Speedy11(at)aol.com
> > >
> > >I'm going to have about six groups of three each
> > P&B W-31 switch circuit
> > >breakers in my RV-8A. No need to address the fact
> > I'm using CBs instead
> > >of fuses.
> > > I understand those reasons, but I want to use
> > CBs.
> > >What I need to know is whether or not each group of
> > three CBs should be
> > >called a buss? Or should I call multiple groups of
> > 3 each CBs a
> > >buss? Does it
> > >really matter? Any problem with having, say, six
> > "busses?"
> >
> > A "bus" is a common feeder for two or more power
> > taps.
> > It's not uncommon for a breaker panel to have
> > multiple
> > rows of breakers stacked one above the other with
> > a
> > single bus conductor that zig-zags down the
> > column of
> > rows supplying a ONE PIECE means of distributing
> > power
> > to all of the breakers. The term "bus" is an
> > electrical
> > term, not a mechanical term.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > browse
> > Subscriptions page,
> > FAQ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D Sub connector pin out question |
>
>Bob & Listers,
> I'm drawing up several wiring schematics for my RV-8A using AutoCAD. A
>number of items in my system use 9, 15 or 25 pin D Subminature connectors.
>The manufacturer manuals show that pin number one is on the top (wider)
>row, left hand side. My question is:
>How is this viewed? Am I looking at the rear of the connector? Which
>connector, the male or the female?
>Charlie Kuss
Looking into the WIRE side of a D-sub MALE (plug) with the
wide-side up, pin 1 is in the upper right corner and the
highest numbered pin in the plug is in lower left corner.
Looking into the WIRE side of a D-sub FEMALE (receptacle)
with the wide side up, pin 1 is in the upper left corner
and the highest numbered pin in the receptacle is in the
lower right corner.
I keep a connector laying on my desk that has pin numbers
molded into both sides of the insert as a ready reference.
It is very easy to get swapped around.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Batter Management Module |
>
>Hi Guys,
>I bought the Low Voltage Warning and Auxiliary Battery Management Module
>(ABMM) because I have two batteries installed (Odyssey 680s).
>After reading the instruction manual it seems I may not need it.
>My setup is: Harmon Rocket, 1mag, 1 electronic ignition (electroair), B&C
>40 amp alt with voltage regulator and low voltage warning light (LR3c).
>I'm thinking that since I don't have a stby alternator or electrically
>dependent engine, I probably don't need a unit that is designed to shut
>the aux battery down in the event of a primary alternator
>failure. Wouldn't it be just fine to continue on to destination or
>nearest suitable field as appropriate with both batteries on, while
>monitoring my volt meter?
if you don't have an electrically dependent engine, why
two batteries?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike & Lee Anne Wiebe" <mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Help - low voltage |
Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom of the masses.again..
Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just got home from the airport
and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the battery in our Sequoia
Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak starting must be some
good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start was very good, with
high charging amperage (Bob, further to your conversation with my dad
about the battery, I'll confirm that we read alternator amperage, not
battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new battery, an Oddessy P680, was
stolen from our new project, and was a little run down from various
bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled into a steady state draw
of about 6 amps, which has always seemed reasonable, given that we have
one side electronic ignition, and a full panel of EI electronic
instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we started for home near dusk.
During operation with strobes, I noticed that the backlights on much of
the panel instrumentation was flickering. After a little
troubleshooting (I stress little - it was getting dark, and this was an
ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know the following:
System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and about 11.5, based on load.
Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even running lights, and two big
landing lights didn't cause the same voltage drop as the strobes. So I
suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation just to be sure. But
it seems funny to me that with the engine running strong that the
voltage would vary very much at all! Through all of this, the amperage
draw seemed normal for the given load being called for. Alternator is
obviously putting something out, but I wonder about consistency. At
one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly, just to create load, and
the engine monitor reset - something it will do when the starter inrush
current draws the system down. I would have thought that turning on a
bunch of lights quickly would not have caused that much of an effect,
though I've never tried to do that before.
System is a B&C 60A alternator and the B&C/Knuckolls Voltage regulator.
All my measuring was done on panel instrumentation, which is an
Electronics International UBG-16 graphic engine monitor with amperage
option. Before shutting down, I advanced the RPM to test for headset
whine. There is a slight whine that changes with RPM, but its so very
subtle that it may have been there forever and me not notice it.
So now I'm going to read my Aeroelectric Connection for more advice. In
the meantime, any knowledgeable opinions are appreciated. As is any
advice on how to isolate and troubleshoot the problem, since it seems
like Saturday is going to be a "fixing, not flying" day, once again.
Thx
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D Sub connector pin out question |
>
> >
> >Bob & Listers,
> > I'm drawing up several wiring schematics for my RV-8A using AutoCAD. A
> >number of items in my system use 9, 15 or 25 pin D Subminature connectors.
> >The manufacturer manuals show that pin number one is on the top (wider)
> >row, left hand side. My question is:
> >How is this viewed? Am I looking at the rear of the connector? Which
> >connector, the male or the female?
> >Charlie Kuss
>
>
> Looking into the WIRE side of a D-sub MALE (plug) with the
> wide-side up, pin 1 is in the upper right corner and the
> highest numbered pin in the plug is in lower left corner.
>
> Looking into the WIRE side of a D-sub FEMALE (receptacle)
> with the wide side up, pin 1 is in the upper left corner
> and the highest numbered pin in the receptacle is in the
> lower right corner.
>
> I keep a connector laying on my desk that has pin numbers
> molded into both sides of the insert as a ready reference.
> It is very easy to get swapped around.
>
> Bob . . .
My thanks to all who answered my query.
Charlie Kuss
do not archieve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery charger/desulphator |
>
>Greetings,
>If anyone is thinking about buying a battery charger/desulphator, such as I
>mentioned in my post a couple of days ago, here is a VERY good buy at this
>web site.
>Bill Byars
>1949 T8F
>
>_http://www.batteryweb.com/batteryminder.cfm_
>(http://www.batteryweb.com/batteryminder.cfm)
I have looked at several "desulfators" and own two. I started
an article on these devices a couple years ago and tried to
find it just now . . . I think it was on a laptop hard drive
that crashed some time back. Anyhow, the topic has come up
again and I've got some samples coming on yet another
approach to the task.
I'll see if I can reassemble the earlier data I gathered
and combine it with any new discoveries about new hardware
after it gets here.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mprather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help - low voltage |
Hi Mike,
What RPM (roughly) were you turning when you witnessed the varying bus
voltage? The alternator can't keep rated output until it gets to some
minimum RPM.
Maybe your alternator has a failed diode? I think that may drop its
output by about half (25A). I am sure that BandC would be happy to test
it for you. It would probably be possible to have it tested at a local
automotive store as well.
Maybe the sense line to the regulator isn't getting a good solid
connection to the bus.
Good luck, and let us know what you find.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
Mike & Lee Anne Wiebe wrote:
>
>Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom of the masses.again..
>
>Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just got home from the airport
>and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the battery in our Sequoia
>Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak starting must be some
>good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start was very good, with
>high charging amperage (Bob, further to your conversation with my dad
>about the battery, I'll confirm that we read alternator amperage, not
>battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new battery, an Oddessy P680, was
>stolen from our new project, and was a little run down from various
>bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled into a steady state draw
>of about 6 amps, which has always seemed reasonable, given that we have
>one side electronic ignition, and a full panel of EI electronic
>instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we started for home near dusk.
>
>
>During operation with strobes, I noticed that the backlights on much of
>the panel instrumentation was flickering. After a little
>troubleshooting (I stress little - it was getting dark, and this was an
>ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know the following:
>
>System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and about 11.5, based on load.
>Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even running lights, and two big
>landing lights didn't cause the same voltage drop as the strobes. So I
>suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation just to be sure. But
>it seems funny to me that with the engine running strong that the
>voltage would vary very much at all! Through all of this, the amperage
>draw seemed normal for the given load being called for. Alternator is
>obviously putting something out, but I wonder about consistency. At
>one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly, just to create load, and
>the engine monitor reset - something it will do when the starter inrush
>current draws the system down. I would have thought that turning on a
>bunch of lights quickly would not have caused that much of an effect,
>though I've never tried to do that before.
>
>System is a B&C 60A alternator and the B&C/Knuckolls Voltage regulator.
>All my measuring was done on panel instrumentation, which is an
>Electronics International UBG-16 graphic engine monitor with amperage
>option. Before shutting down, I advanced the RPM to test for headset
>whine. There is a slight whine that changes with RPM, but its so very
>subtle that it may have been there forever and me not notice it.
>
>So now I'm going to read my Aeroelectric Connection for more advice. In
>the meantime, any knowledgeable opinions are appreciated. As is any
>advice on how to isolate and troubleshoot the problem, since it seems
>like Saturday is going to be a "fixing, not flying" day, once again.
>
>Thx
>Mike
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Help - low voltage |
Good Morning Mike and Matt,
I recently had a problem with varying low voltage on a J35 Bonanza.
It had recently had a new and larger engine installed along with a brand
new, from the Continental factory, Alternator and a new Zeftronics solid state
voltage regulator. The airplane was also equipped with an Electronics
International volt/ammeter.
During the test flying, the alternator popped off the bus several times.
Each time various wires were replaced and contacts cleaned. The voltmeter was
showing a nice steady 14.2 to 14.4 all of this time. We suspected a high
voltage rejection and, after consultation with my alternator guru and the
Zeftronics folks, sent the Zeftronics unit back for evaluation. We also had the
alternator bench checked by a competent shop.
None of those efforts bore any fruit. My local alternator guru told me he
had found faulty alternator rotors in the past which had not shown up during
normal testing, but which would cause over voltage trips on occasion. After
replacing the rotor with a new one, all problems ceased and the alternator
worked fine for the rest of the break in period.
However, after about fifteen hours time was put on the installation, the
voltage started to vary occasionally. It would show 14.2 to 14.4 most of the
time in cruise, but would occasionally drop down to 13.0 or even as low as 12.4
or so. Since we had originally changed almost every wire, circuit breaker
and switch in the charging control circuit while trying to fix the original
problem, I figured I had messed something else up in the circuit.
I have installed many other Electronics International units and have always
found them to be very reliable. I did not suspicion a problem there at all.
Nevertheless I did fasten a few wires at various points around the system to
facilitate voltage checks via a Fluke meter while in normal operations. I
led those wires to a DB nine connector so that voltages could be easily checked
in flight. I found that the voltages were generally steady, though set a
bit lower than I would like. They were mostly around 13.6 with an occasional
foray lower. That happened most often during a change in RPM. I even used
another Fluke meter to check my old reliable one thinking there may be something
wrong with the older unit. Both Fluke meters showed consistency within a
hundredth of a volt.
The problem was not a voltage problem, it was a failing EI indicator!
I don't know if all of the problems we had with the new alternator somehow
damaged the EI volt/ammeter or if it had been failing before the engine swap,
but I sure was not expecting a failure there.
It really pays to check our instrumentation when things don't want to add up!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- mprather <_mprather(at)spro.net_ (mailto:mprather(at)spro.net) > wrote:
> <_mprather(at)spro.net_ (mailto:mprather(at)spro.net) >
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> What RPM (roughly) were you turning when you
> witnessed the varying bus
> voltage? The alternator can't keep rated output
> until it gets to some
> minimum RPM.
>
> Maybe your alternator has a failed diode? I think
> that may drop its
> output by about half (25A). I am sure that BandC
> would be happy to test
> it for you. It would probably be possible to have
> it tested at a local
> automotive store as well.
>
> Maybe the sense line to the regulator isn't getting
> a good solid
> connection to the bus.
>
> Good luck, and let us know what you find.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
> VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
>
> Mike & Lee Anne Wiebe wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike &
> Lee Anne Wiebe" <_mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca_ (mailto:mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca) >
> >
> >Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom
> of the masses.again..
> >
> >Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just got
> home from the airport
> >and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the
> battery in our Sequoia
> >Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak
> starting must be some
> >good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start
> was very good, with
> >high charging amperage (Bob, further to your
> conversation with my dad
> >about the battery, I'll confirm that we read
> alternator amperage, not
> >battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new battery,
> an Oddessy P680, was
> >stolen from our new project, and was a little run
> down from various
> >bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled
> into a steady state draw
> >of about 6 amps, which has always seemed
> reasonable, given that we have
> >one side electronic ignition, and a full panel of
> EI electronic
> >instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we
> started for home near dusk.
> >
> >
> >During operation with strobes, I noticed that the
> backlights on much of
> >the panel instrumentation was flickering. After a
> little
> >troubleshooting (I stress little - it was getting
> dark, and this was an
> >ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know
> the following:
> >
> >System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and about
> 11.5, based on load.
> >Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even running
> lights, and two big
> >landing lights didn't cause the same voltage drop
> as the strobes. So I
> >suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation
> just to be sure. But
> >it seems funny to me that with the engine running
> strong that the
> >voltage would vary very much at all! Through all
> of this, the amperage
> >draw seemed normal for the given load being called
> for. Alternator is
> >obviously putting something out, but I wonder about
> consistency. At
> >one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly,
> just to create load, and
> >the engine monitor reset - something it will do
> when the starter inrush
> >current draws the system down. I would have
> thought that turning on a
> >bunch of lights quickly would not have caused that
> much of an effect,
> >though I've never tried to do that before.
> >
> >System is a B&C 60A alternator and the
> B&C/Knuckolls Voltage regulator.
> >All my measuring was done on panel instrumentation,
> which is an
> >Electronics International UBG-16 graphic engine
> monitor with amperage
> >option. Before shutting down, I advanced the RPM
> to test for headset
> >whine. There is a slight whine that changes with
> RPM, but its so very
> >subtle that it may have been there forever and me
> not notice it.
> >
> >So now I'm going to read my Aeroelectric Connection
> for more advice. In
> >the meantime, any knowledgeable opinions are
> appreciated. As is any
> >advice on how to isolate and troubleshoot the
> problem, since it seems
> >like Saturday is going to be a "fixing, not flying"
> day, once again.
> >
> >Thx
> >Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Help - low voltage |
Good Morning All,
In my previous message, I messed up some of the story.
I had problems with my spell checker and Yahoo when I
tried to send it out. That resulted in some
misalginment of what I was trying to say. When I
mentioned the occasional forays of the voltage lower,
that should have been when being checked by the EI
unit. The 13.6 with the Fluke meters was always rock
steady.
Poor proofreading on my part. Sorry about that.
Happy Skies,
Old bob
--- BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> BobsV35B(at)aol.com
>
> Good Morning Mike and Matt,
>
> I recently had a problem with varying low voltage on
> a J35 Bonanza.
>
> It had recently had a new and larger engine
> installed along with a brand
> new, from the Continental factory, Alternator and a
> new Zeftronics solid state
> voltage regulator. The airplane was also equipped
> with an Electronics
> International volt/ammeter.
>
> During the test flying, the alternator popped off
> the bus several times.
> Each time various wires were replaced and contacts
> cleaned. The voltmeter was
> showing a nice steady 14.2 to 14.4 all of this time.
> We suspected a high
> voltage rejection and, after consultation with my
> alternator guru and the
> Zeftronics folks, sent the Zeftronics unit back for
> evaluation. We also had the
> alternator bench checked by a competent shop.
>
> None of those efforts bore any fruit. My local
> alternator guru told me he
> had found faulty alternator rotors in the past which
> had not shown up during
> normal testing, but which would cause over voltage
> trips on occasion. After
> replacing the rotor with a new one, all problems
> ceased and the alternator
> worked fine for the rest of the break in period.
>
> However, after about fifteen hours time was put on
> the installation, the
> voltage started to vary occasionally. It would show
> 14.2 to 14.4 most of the
> time in cruise, but would occasionally drop down to
> 13.0 or even as low as 12.4
> or so. Since we had originally changed almost every
> wire, circuit breaker
> and switch in the charging control circuit while
> trying to fix the original
> problem, I figured I had messed something else up in
> the circuit.
>
> I have installed many other Electronics
> International units and have always
> found them to be very reliable. I did not suspicion
> a problem there at all.
> Nevertheless I did fasten a few wires at various
> points around the system to
> facilitate voltage checks via a Fluke meter while
> in normal operations. I
> led those wires to a DB nine connector so that
> voltages could be easily checked
> in flight. I found that the voltages were
> generally steady, though set a
> bit lower than I would like. They were mostly
> around 13.6 with an occasional
> foray lower. That happened most often during a
> change in RPM. I even used
> another Fluke meter to check my old reliable one
> thinking there may be something
> wrong with the older unit. Both Fluke meters
> showed consistency within a
> hundredth of a volt.
>
> The problem was not a voltage problem, it was a
> failing EI indicator!
>
> I don't know if all of the problems we had with the
> new alternator somehow
> damaged the EI volt/ammeter or if it had been
> failing before the engine swap,
> but I sure was not expecting a failure there.
>
> It really pays to check our instrumentation when
> things don't want to add up!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> --- mprather <_mprather(at)spro.net_
> (mailto:mprather(at)spro.net) > wrote:
>
> > <_mprather(at)spro.net_ (mailto:mprather(at)spro.net) >
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > What RPM (roughly) were you turning when you
> > witnessed the varying bus
> > voltage? The alternator can't keep rated output
> > until it gets to some
> > minimum RPM.
> >
> > Maybe your alternator has a failed diode? I think
> > that may drop its
> > output by about half (25A). I am sure that BandC
> > would be happy to test
> > it for you. It would probably be possible to
> have
> > it tested at a local
> > automotive store as well.
> >
> > Maybe the sense line to the regulator isn't
> getting
> > a good solid
> > connection to the bus.
> >
> > Good luck, and let us know what you find.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Matt-
> > VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
> >
> >
> > Mike & Lee Anne Wiebe wrote:
> >
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike &
> > Lee Anne Wiebe" <_mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca_
> (mailto:mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca) >
> > >
> > >Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom
> > of the masses.again..
> > >
> > >Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just
> got
> > home from the airport
> > >and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the
> > battery in our Sequoia
> > >Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak
> > starting must be some
> > >good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start
> > was very good, with
> > >high charging amperage (Bob, further to your
> > conversation with my dad
> > >about the battery, I'll confirm that we read
> > alternator amperage, not
> > >battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new
> battery,
> > an Oddessy P680, was
> > >stolen from our new project, and was a little run
> > down from various
> > >bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled
> > into a steady state draw
> > >of about 6 amps, which has always seemed
> > reasonable, given that we have
> > >one side electronic ignition, and a full panel
> of
> > EI electronic
> > >instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we
> > started for home near dusk.
> > >
> > >
> > >During operation with strobes, I noticed that
> the
> > backlights on much of
> > >the panel instrumentation was flickering. After
> a
> > little
> > >troubleshooting (I stress little - it was
> getting
> > dark, and this was an
> > >ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know
> > the following:
> > >
> > >System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and
> about
> > 11.5, based on load.
> > >Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even
> running
> > lights, and two big
> > >landing lights didn't cause the same voltage
> drop
> > as the strobes. So I
> > >suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation
> > just to be sure. But
> > >it seems funny to me that with the engine
> running
> > strong that the
> > >voltage would vary very much at all! Through
> all
> > of this, the amperage
> > >draw seemed normal for the given load being
> called
> > for. Alternator is
> > >obviously putting something out, but I wonder
> about
> > consistency. At
> > >one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly,
> > just to create load, and
>
=== message truncated ===
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jrstone(at)insightbb.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Batter Management Module |
Twice the range to get to destination or nearest suitable.
I have an inverted oil line on my Vac pad.
I want to swap out 1 battery each annual.
Didn't like the SD-8 running all the time and the additional wiring and
voltage regulator requirement.
Like having a few extra pounds aft in the Harmon Rocket.
So what do you think, do I need one of these rascals?
Thanks,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aux Batter Management Module
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Hi Guys,
>>I bought the Low Voltage Warning and Auxiliary Battery Management Module
>>(ABMM) because I have two batteries installed (Odyssey 680s).
>>After reading the instruction manual it seems I may not need it.
>>My setup is: Harmon Rocket, 1mag, 1 electronic ignition (electroair), B&C
>>40 amp alt with voltage regulator and low voltage warning light (LR3c).
>>I'm thinking that since I don't have a stby alternator or electrically
>>dependent engine, I probably don't need a unit that is designed to shut
>>the aux battery down in the event of a primary alternator
>>failure. Wouldn't it be just fine to continue on to destination or
>>nearest suitable field as appropriate with both batteries on, while
>>monitoring my volt meter?
>
> if you don't have an electrically dependent engine, why
> two batteries?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | Batteries in series and parallel |
Ok Listers,
I guess the cat's out of the bag: DeltaHawk Engines has announced they
can't find a vendor to supply a 12V starter that can spin their engine fast
enough for engine start. I've been busily preparing for a 14V electrical
system (including the purchase of several components) and have to figure a
way to:
a) Power a 24V starter from a pair of 12V batteries, or
b) Convert to a 28V system and power my 12V accessories using DC to DC
converters.
Option "a" is my 1st instinct. I'd have to figure out a way to run two
batteries in parallel with a series connection for the just the starter, and
without imposing procedural restrictions. For example, "Must have battery
power switch off for start or system damage will result" is a bad idea as
far as I'm concerned. I should be able to wire this system so that when the
starter is engaged, power is removed from the rest of the system. My
concern then is how do I protect my 12V accessories from a stuck
relay/contactor? A benefit of this approach is that I can drop the need for
a second alternator. I'd planned on two alternators with one battery; for
me, one alternator with two batteries does the same thing. (To forestall
comments on this view; my philosophy is to land at the nearest suitable
airfield when ANY engine-driven electrical power source fails--even if
another engine-driven power source is available. IMHO, backups are a means
to get you on the ground safely, as soon as practicality permits; getting to
the destination is a distant second priority.) Anybody have access to a
schematic that might show how this can be done?
Option "b" is less attractive to me due to added system complexity (option
"a" adds complexity only to the starting system, shouldn't be a concern
inflight). I'll either need one large DC-to-DC converter to power all 12V
accessories (single point of failure), or I'll need individual DC-to-DC
converters for each accessory. Additionlly, my understanding is that these
converters aren't 100% efficient, meaning I'll add to my current
requirements. On the other hand, this option appears, on its face, somehow
safer; I can't accidently fry the entire system with a procedural error or
with a malfunctioning relay/contactor.
Thoughts?
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
| From: | "Eric Henson" <ehenson(at)teamhorner.com> |
In regards to the Avcorp tubeseal. $75.00 for a firewall penetration "kit", for
a single 1" penetration? Are they TSO'd? Big ole hairy "gimme a break" on that
one. Nice product, but horribly over priced IMHO
I've tried to find the "towel rack" mentioned in the past, but can't seem to locate
one. Still looking.
Eric
> These are very useful if you don't want your firewall to be
> a firewall anymore but simply a temporary barrier between
> you and smelly things going on up front.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
Good Morning Mark,
For What It Is Worth, back when I was flying LaBelle Caravelle, there was a
big handle immediately to my left and just below the side cockpit window which
switched the batteries from the parallel mode into a series arrangement to
provide sufficient power to start the engines. I do not recall how the rest of
the electrical system was set up as I am sure we did have power to several
normal circuits during the engine start.
Nevertheless, that manual switching was used for the start phase. I would
imagine it would be fairly easy to do something similar for your starting
needs. Two 12 volt batteries in series for start with twelve volts being picked
off one or both to power systems that need power during the start. When they
are switched back to parallel, they would charge as would any parallel
battery setup.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
In a message dated 6/24/2005 9:19:23 A.M. Central Standard Time,
marknlisa(at)hometel.com writes:
a) Power a 24V starter from a pair of 12V batteries, or
b) Convert to a 28V system and power my 12V accessories using DC to DC
converters.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
Mark & Lisa wrote:
> Option "a" is my 1st instinct. I'd have to figure out a way to run two
> batteries in parallel with a series connection for the just the starter, and
> without imposing procedural restrictions. For example, "Must have battery
> power switch off for start or system damage will result" is a bad idea as
> far as I'm concerned. I should be able to wire this system so that when the
> starter is engaged, power is removed from the rest of the system. My
> concern then is how do I protect my 12V accessories from a stuck
> relay/contactor? A benefit of this approach is that I can drop the need for
Just a random thought - if you do not mind dedicating
one battery for just the starter, you could have just a single
battery in-line with your starter contactor (or whatever device
you choose to do this function), so when you engage the contactor,
you get the 12v from the "regular" battery and feed it in
series with the "starter" battery for 28v. Everything else
only gets the 12v from the "regular" battery.
I'm sure there is a more elegant way to do this, and
perhaps be able to use the second battery as an emergency
backup for the first, but this thought just ran across my
mind so I figured I would share it.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Maybe, maybe not so much if you only need one and it includes everything.
cdn$30+ for stainless towel rack
US$12. for a chunk of firesleeve plus shipping
cdn$28. for itumescent caulk
Thats over US$55. plus gas and time to find and collect it, not to
mention a couple of bolts and a gear clamp
I found the 1.25" stainless grab bar (towel rack) from Home Hardware.
It protrudes out a bit more than I'd like. I think they had a 1" one for
a bit cheaper. If I did it again I'd just use a plain steel towel rack
from Home Depot.
Ken ;)
Eric Henson wrote:
>
>In regards to the Avcorp tubeseal. $75.00 for a firewall penetration "kit", for
a single 1" penetration? Are they TSO'd? Big ole hairy "gimme a break" on that
one. Nice product, but horribly over priced IMHO
>
>I've tried to find the "towel rack" mentioned in the past, but can't seem to locate
one. Still looking.
>
>Eric
>
>
>
>
>> These are very useful if you don't want your firewall to be
>> a firewall anymore but simply a temporary barrier between
>> you and smelly things going on up front.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Morris <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Home Depot also has the fireproof caulk for a whole lot less than $28.
Dave Morris
At 10:57 AM 6/24/2005, you wrote:
>
>Maybe, maybe not so much if you only need one and it includes everything.
>cdn$30+ for stainless towel rack
>US$12. for a chunk of firesleeve plus shipping
>cdn$28. for itumescent caulk
>Thats over US$55. plus gas and time to find and collect it, not to
>mention a couple of bolts and a gear clamp
>
>I found the 1.25" stainless grab bar (towel rack) from Home Hardware.
>It protrudes out a bit more than I'd like. I think they had a 1" one for
>a bit cheaper. If I did it again I'd just use a plain steel towel rack
>from Home Depot.
>
>Ken ;)
>
>Eric Henson wrote:
>
>
> >
> >In regards to the Avcorp tubeseal. $75.00 for a firewall penetration
> "kit", for a single 1" penetration? Are they TSO'd? Big ole hairy "gimme
> a break" on that one. Nice product, but horribly over priced IMHO
> >
> >I've tried to find the "towel rack" mentioned in the past, but can't
> seem to locate one. Still looking.
> >
> >Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> These are very useful if you don't want your firewall to be
> >> a firewall anymore but simply a temporary barrier between
> >> you and smelly things going on up front.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
>
> >I found the 1.25" stainless grab bar (towel rack) from Home Hardware.
> >It protrudes out a bit more than I'd like. I think they had a 1" one for
> >a bit cheaper. If I did it again I'd just use a plain steel towel rack
> >from Home Depot.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >In regards to the Avcorp tubeseal. $75.00 for a firewall penetration
> > "kit", for a single 1" penetration? Are they TSO'd? Big ole hairy "gimme
> > a break" on that one. Nice product, but horribly over priced IMHO
If you have stainless materials and welding
capabilities in your shop, perhaps $75.00 is
a poor return on investment of your $time$.
We looked into fabricating and supplying these
kits at the AeroElectric Connection too . . . it's
not a trivial task . . . and it would not have been
substantially less expensive . . . especially for
the right angle versions.
> > >I've tried to find the "towel rack" mentioned in the past, but can't
> > seem to locate one. Still looking.
When you finally arrive at an attractive solution,
consider the TOTAL $time$ expended to achieve the
goal and then make a judgement as to how
your project would have progressed had
you elected to trade $75.00 - $xx.xx (savings)
for the $time$ that might have advanced your progress
in other ways.
It wasn't until my job was to compare $total$ cost
to bring a product to market and discovered that
many "dollar saving" philosophies of the past were
in fact, poor use of resources. The $savings$/time
value is wages you paid yourself to NOT be doing
other things on your airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Unfortunately not in Canada. I've looked in many of their strores.
Here they sell a fire rated silicone caulk. It is simply silicone caulk
that has a fire rating and it acts exactly like any other silicone caulk
when I heat it up. Very different and very poor compared to the
itumescent stuff which is not silicone. I believe I posted part number a
year or so ago.
Ken
Dave Morris wrote:
>
>Home Depot also has the fireproof caulk for a whole lot less than $28.
>
>Dave Morris
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Wilson <pwilson(at)climber.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Try a place that sells stoves
Paul
=======
At 12:43 PM 6/24/2005, you wrote:
>
>Unfortunately not in Canada. I've looked in many of their strores.
>Here they sell a fire rated silicone caulk. It is simply silicone caulk
>that has a fire rating and it acts exactly like any other silicone caulk
>when I heat it up. Very different and very poor compared to the
>itumescent stuff which is not silicone. I believe I posted part number a
>year or so ago.
>Ken
>
>Dave Morris wrote:
>
> >
> >Home Depot also has the fireproof caulk for a whole lot less than $28.
> >
> >Dave Morris
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Eric,
Go to http://www.homedepot.com, and enter "Stainless Steel Grab" in the
keyword search at the top right of the screen. It will bring up a list of
various stainless grab bars with nice welded flanges in the 15$-50$ range.
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> In regards to the Avcorp tubeseal. $75.00 for a firewall penetration
> "kit", for a single 1" penetration? Are they TSO'd? Big ole hairy "gimme
> a break" on that one. Nice product, but horribly over priced IMHO
>
> I've tried to find the "towel rack" mentioned in the past, but can't
> seem to locate one. Still looking.
>
> Eric
>
>
>> These are very useful if you don't want your firewall to be
>> a firewall anymore but simply a temporary barrier between
>> you and smelly things going on up front.
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
I'm in the final stages of laying out the panel for a kitbuilt aircraft.
I'd like to go with an elctronic horizontal situation indicator.
Then King KI-825 and Sandel SN3500 are just too ex$pensive!
But, either the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite-G3 or the Grand Rapids EFIS Horizon Series
1 could work.
Does anyone have any first hand experience wiring up and using either of these
units? PLEASE help me with some feedback!
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Paul,
I have a dual GRT EFIS and have no criticism of it at all. I fly IFR with it and
it has been rock-solid since initial use 100+ hours ago (though I have a Mid-Continent
backup AI just in case on the all electric panel).
The resolution of the GRT HSI is not dazzling, but it is accurate and easy to use.
GRT has a reputation of being a solid company that is easy to deal with.
BMs unit may be the equal of the GRT, but I'm not sure the company is? I hear/see
many more favorable things about GRT than BM, but everyone's results may
vary.
You may want to monitor GRT_EFIS(at)yahoogroups.com to catch a flavor of some the
users comments and questions. In short, there is probably nothing wrong with
the BM Lite, but you can't go wrong with the GRT HS 1 series.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
psiegel(at)fuse.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic-HSI?
I'm in the final stages of laying out the panel for a kitbuilt aircraft.
I'd like to go with an elctronic horizontal situation indicator.
Then King KI-825 and Sandel SN3500 are just too ex$pensive!
But, either the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite-G3 or the Grand Rapids EFIS Horizon Series
1 could work.
Does anyone have any first hand experience wiring up and using either of these
units? PLEASE help me with some feedback!
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Batter Management Module |
>
>Twice the range to get to destination or nearest suitable.
>I have an inverted oil line on my Vac pad.
>I want to swap out 1 battery each annual.
>Didn't like the SD-8 running all the time and the additional wiring and
>voltage regulator requirement.
>Like having a few extra pounds aft in the Harmon Rocket.
>So what do you think, do I need one of these rascals?
No
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-22 relay question |
Listers
I have a problem I need advice on. My electrical system is from an older version
of Bob's drawings but fits the current Z-11 drawing pretty closely with a Z-22
substitution for the way I wire the starter run on relay. I need to replace
the S704-1 relay which has gone bad. Can I use a standard starter contactor
in place of the smaller lighter relay? It seems that the wiring logic should
be the same regardless of whether the smaller or larger relay is used.
Thanks in advance.
Michael Harfst N9TZ 165 Hrs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
Bob,
Thanks for the info, I was pretty sure I'd heard of such a setup before,
just don't know exactly how to arrange it.
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Good Morning Mark,
For What It Is Worth, back when I was flying LaBelle Caravelle, there
was a
big handle immediately to my left and just below the side cockpit
window which
switched the batteries from the parallel mode into a series
arrangement to
provide sufficient power to start the engines.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
Dj,
I'd considered this approach, but if I'm forced to have two batteries I'd
like to use both of them for inflight duties in lieu of the second
engine-driven power source (see my original post). If I don't have both
batteries available I'd need two alternators AND two batteries; up goes the
weight and complexity. Thanks for the idea tho...
Regards,
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Just a random thought - if you do not mind dedicating
one battery for just the starter, you could have just a single
battery in-line with your starter contactor (or whatever device
you choose to do this function), so when you engage the contactor,
you get the 12v from the "regular" battery and feed it in
series with the "starter" battery for 28v. Everything else
only gets the 12v from the "regular" battery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
Hi Mark ...
Just wanted to relate to you what my Ford tractor mechanic did to modify my
tractor and this mod was acceptable practice.
The mod involved changing out the 6Volt generator, battery, and light bulbs
for 12V alternator, battery, and light bulbs. The 6V starter was left as is
... 6V. The gas engine started "right now" with a very fast spin from the
starter, as one could imagine. There was no down side to this mod. The
tractor was used for 20 years in this configuration and never had a starter
problem. I'm not advocating anyone put a high value airplane starter into
this environment ... just a data point.
Jerry Grimmonpre
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
>
>Hi Mark ...
>Just wanted to relate to you what my Ford tractor mechanic did to modify my
>tractor and this mod was acceptable practice.
>
>The mod involved changing out the 6Volt generator, battery, and light bulbs
>for 12V alternator, battery, and light bulbs. The 6V starter was left as is
>... 6V. The gas engine started "right now" with a very fast spin from the
>starter, as one could imagine. There was no down side to this mod. The
>tractor was used for 20 years in this configuration and never had a starter
>problem. I'm not advocating anyone put a high value airplane starter into
>this environment ... just a data point.
This was a common approach taken by some hot-rodders in my
school days during the transition from 6->12 and gen->alt
hardware. High compression 6v engines were often "bumped up"
to 8v systems by purchasing the right 4-cell battery and
tightening the spring on the voltage regulator control
relay. This "fixed" a weak starter problem on high-compression
engines. Later, many builders left their 6v starters in place
after converting the rest of the vehicle to 12v. I did such
an upgrade for a friend of mine on a '38 Merc Convertable.
We installed a 60A alternator on a flat-head v8 and even
put an aftermarket, under-dash a/c in the car. He took a
number of prizes at local shows for his finished project.
The car did just fine with the original 6v starter installed.
Starter motors of the era were series wound and VERY tolerant
of increased operating voltage.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
>a) Power a 24V starter from a pair of 12V batteries, or.......
Mark,
Here a schematic to do the job in the standard series-parallel way:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/12-24V_System.pdf
However, if it were my bird I would question the idea that Deltahawk can't
do the job at 12V. Here's why--
The voltage of a starting system in not as important as the system's ability
to delivery current to the starter. This is also a function of the
resistance of the battery and connections, etc. An Ultracapacitor in
parallel with the battery and close to the starter motor is now often used
to start diesel engines. These go for $20/Farad (12V) and the cost is in
freefall. I'd try one of these on the Deltahawk.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem...."
-Thomas Szasz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Batteries in series and parallel |
>
>Dj,
>
>I'd considered this approach, but if I'm forced to have two batteries I'd
>like to use both of them for inflight duties in lieu of the second
>engine-driven power source (see my original post). If I don't have both
>batteries available I'd need two alternators AND two batteries; up goes the
>weight and complexity. Thanks for the idea tho...
>
>Regards,
What you're asking for has been done on several aircraft
in the past . . . but it needs to be accomplished with
careful attention to the potential for shorting batteries
with VERY hard faults when the system is dependent on
relay transition times for avoiding faults. Further,
the batteries should be fitted with ANL limiters such
that (1) opening a limiter doesn't take BOTH batteries off
line and (2) things come to an orderly conclusion in case
of a stuck contactor. Relay timing issues can be washed
out my design. I'll offer the following suggestion:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Aart van't Veld" <avtveld(at)tiscali.nl> |
| Subject: | Fadec installation, what architecture? |
2.31 DATE_IN_FUTURE_24_48 Date: is 24 to 48 hours after Received: date
I would really appreciate feedback from you guys on the wiring/architecture
of my Fadec system. The basics of my installation and wiring situation are:
- All electric airplane
- Flying an experimental in Europe. Therefore no IFR/IMC, no night VFR.
- 60A B&C main alternator
- One main battery(Odyssey PC680)
- One small backup battery, comes with the Fadec installation and is
dedicated to power the backup Fadec #2 bus only (Aerosance states that it is
more than enough for one hour of powering the Fadec system. The Fadec system
draws 5,5 amps)
- One SD8 backup alternator
The Fadec system has two ECU's / busses for full redundancy. I will have the
Fadec #1 bus powered by the main power distribution bus and the Fadec #2 bus
powered by the Ebus. The basic installation that I have in mind now is using
the straightforward Z11 diagram, but adding a backup system that will only
power the Ebus (and back up Fadec #2 bus). This backup system will off
course have the Fadec battery but I would also like to add a SD8 alternator.
The Aerosance wiring diagram http://www.fadec.com/pdfs/WD12556G.PDF shows
this backup alternator/backup battery concept too. They complete this backup
system by adding a battery contactor and an alt/bat switch.
Does this all make sense to you or am I overdoing the redundancy issue here
and by adding the SD8 making the system more complex than necessary? Is
there another architecture that is better suited for my profile?
Thanks for your input,
Aart van't Veld
<http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII> http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Most current Z13 with B&C set up ? |
Help anyone for a bookmark, please. Probably not looking in the right place
but my old Z13 diagram calls for 2AWG fat wire and the newest one that I can
find on the Connection calls for 4AWG which I would prefer but that diagram
does not include the B&C alt/reg set up. Since I am using the B&C reg &
40amp alt with SD8 standby I was a little confused on the wire size
difference.
Where can I find a most current Z13 diagram with the B&C set up? Prefer PDF
if possible.
Thanks Bill S
7a Ark
fuse/panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-22 relay question |
>
>Listers
>I have a problem I need advice on. My electrical system is from an older
>version of Bob's drawings but fits the current Z-11 drawing pretty closely
>with a Z-22 substitution for the way I wire the starter run on relay. I
>need to replace the S704-1 relay which has gone bad. Can I use a standard
>starter contactor in place of the smaller lighter relay? It seems that
>the wiring logic should be the same regardless of whether the smaller or
>larger relay is used.
>Thanks in advance.
>Michael Harfst N9TZ 165 Hrs
Looking over Z-22, I see that I've stubbed my toe. In the
article on spike catcher diodes:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/PM_Starter_w_RunOn_Relay.pdf
I alluded to the first issue of an AD against the ACS510
genere' of off-l-r-both-start key switches wherein the
FAA took note of EXTRAORDINARY energy dump from modern
light weight replacement starter solenoid/contactors.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
Seems the coil de-energizing spike was eating up starter
control contacts in the switches (just like it did in
cars! . . . funny thing about that physics stuff . . .
same rules apply everywhere).
The first issue of the AD put a spike catcher diode in
the wrong place . . . but was modified some time later
to correct the error.
Then came along a new characteristic in modern, light-weight
replacement starters. Efforts to reduce starter push
button wear with an add-on starter contactor (a la Z-11
and B&C recommendations), we noted that the back-emf generated
during spin-down of a PM starter would cause a delayed retraction
of the starter's pinon gear when the push button was released.
We STILL didn't want to run full contactor coil current
through the panel control so a heavy-duty (30A) relay
was suggested and described in Z-22. However, making
the relay a "heavy duty" device did NOT alleviate the
need for spike suppression at the contacts. The heavy
duty relay was just as vulnerable to damage from
stored energy as the off-l-r-both-start key switch.
However, while concentrating on the run-on issue, I
overlooked the need for a spike catcher.
I've updated Z-22 and published it in the Page-Per-System
drawings at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/PM_Starter_w_RunOn_Relay.pdf
Here's a good example of how the diode bridge rectifier
assembly can be used to good electrical and mechanical
advantage. I show two of the four didoes used to suppress
the spike out of the starter contactor -AND- the
relay coil. Further, the mechanical characteristics of
this part give us good places to bring pairs of wires
into the same terminal as tie points.
You COULD replace the S704 with a HEAVIER duty still
device like a starter contactor, but it's not necessary.
Try the NEW Z-22 and see what it does for you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Most current Z13 with B&C set up ? |
>
>
>Help anyone for a bookmark, please. Probably not looking in the right place
>but my old Z13 diagram calls for 2AWG fat wire and the newest one that I can
>find on the Connection calls for 4AWG which I would prefer but that diagram
>does not include the B&C alt/reg set up. Since I am using the B&C reg &
>40amp alt with SD8 standby I was a little confused on the wire size
>difference.
>
>Where can I find a most current Z13 diagram with the B&C set up? Prefer PDF
>if possible.
The z-drawings are NOT intended to be recommendations for any
particular combination of parts or wires. One may substitute
a variety of starter, alternator and battery configurations
within a single architecture. Further, wire sizes may need
adjusting depending on circumstances. If your battery and
engine are in rather close proximity to each other (like
an RV with battery on firewall or under passenger seat)
then 4AWG wire suffices for fat wires.
If you have a canard-pusher composite where fatwires -AND-
wired grounds run the length of the airplane, then 2AWG
is indicated. Seaplanes run fatter wires yet.
You need to start a 3-ring notebook set of drawings
using pencil and pink-pearl eraser. Begin to craft
a set of page-per-system drawings that show one system
at a time on each sheet of paper.
You use Z-13 (or whatever) to set the overall distribution
and operating philosophy for your airplane but the
DETAILS as to which parts, and what wire sizes must
be individually crafted. You can use features from multiple
z-figures to select details for what you're going to
do with Z-13. For example, do your page-per-system drawing
for the alternator by referencing Z-14.
I trying to keep the latest configurations for a lot
of drawings posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/
You'll find both .pdf and AutoCAD .dwg files there
for your convenience as they become available.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Shay King" <shaking(at)eircom.net> |
| Subject: | Microair 760 radio, transmission problems 118 to 123 |
MHz.
Dear Bob,
I have a Microair 760 vhf radio in my Zenith 701. I'm using a Comant 121 antenna.
I receive perfectly on all frequencies, but when transmitting on the lower vhf
frequencies my transmissions are unreadable. From 118 MHz.to 122 MHz, my transmissions
are totally unreadable. At 123 MHz just understandable, and from 124
MHz upwards all perfect except for a slight deterioration between 127 to 129
Mhz [ strength 4].
Basically all transmissions above 124 MHz are good or acceptable.
Do you have any idea what might be causing this problem?
Regards,
Shay King.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> problems 118 to 123 MHz. |
| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 radio, transmission |
problems 118 to 123 MHz.
>
>Dear Bob,
>
>I have a Microair 760 vhf radio in my Zenith 701. I'm using a Comant 121
>antenna.
>
>I receive perfectly on all frequencies, but when transmitting on the lower
>vhf frequencies my transmissions are unreadable. From 118 MHz.to 122 MHz,
>my transmissions are totally unreadable. At 123 MHz just understandable,
>and from 124 MHz upwards all perfect except for a slight deterioration
>between 127 to 129 Mhz [ strength 4].
>
>Basically all transmissions above 124 MHz are good or acceptable.
>
>Do you have any idea what might be causing this problem?
Start by putting a dummy load resistor on the back
of your radio. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/DummyLoad.jpg
Have someone in another airplane or with a hand-held
just a few fee away listen to the quality of your
transmissions with the dummy load in place. It's best
if they wear headphones.
If the transmissions are clear over all frequencies,
then the most likely cause is from radio frequency
energy getting coupled into your radio's harness
wiring. Double check the connector installation
on the antenna coax at the back of the radio. Also
connector where the coax attaches to the antenna.
An open shield at either end is formula for very
strange behavior.
Do you have access to an SWR meter or antenna
analyzer? You might check the antenna quality at
the transceiver end of the coax as well.
IF transmissions are bad with the dummy load installed
then there is something wrong with the radio.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration (big picture) |
What about the fiberglass cowl about a foot and a half behind the plexi windscreen?
For example an RV-8 had a massive engine failure, the connecting rod blew
a hole in the case. The ensuing in-flight fire was bad enough the pilot jumped
from the airplane with out a parachute. Not to mention the fire licking out
the bottom on the aluminum belly.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19358&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=SEA99FA113&rpt=fi
My point is an absolute seal at every firewall penetration is great, but are we
fooling ourselves when the fire may just burn thru the cowl or another part.
Even than will be able to see or breath. The cowl above did show fire damage next
to the firewall.
I think overall most GA planes and experimental are not real fire proof if the
heat intensity is great. Good enough to get on the ground? Depends on how bad
the fire is and how high you are.
Will you be able to see, breath? What other things can we do? Fire/overheat detection
(alarm) and protection (fire extinguishers), PBR- Personal breathing respirator/
smoke hood (bag-N-a-can). If the poor fellow had one of these he might
have been able to land, since he was not really burned before he bailed.
http://www.aeromedix.com/?_siteid=aeromedix&_sessid=c9c96ba4b3233f8f72ed93113968b803&action=cat&catid=smokehood
The worst fire is from Av-fuel or oil followed by an exhaust fire. If the whole
engine crankcase is compromised and case oil is released there's not much you
can do, but fuel lines and oil lines should get the up most attention to protect
the biggest source of fuel to a fire. All I have to say is I hope my parachute
works if my RV catches fire in-flight, because I am out-a-there, firewall
seals or not.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise in music input |
I finally got more data on this problem. The Garmin 340 audio panel
utilizes a switch to ground to enable a high gain position. When I turn
this on even with nothing plugged in and the strobes not on, I can hear
a faint pulsing (engine running). When I plug the cord in - no ipod -
and turn on the strobes I can hear them pulsing clearly at low power
settings. Adding the ipod changes nothing. Without the cord plugged in
I can't hear the strobes even when they're on and the high gain switch
on.
The cord I'm using is very light weight and thinner than a standard
audio cord. It seems to be acting as some sort of antenna.
Robert Dickson
On Jun 19, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>
> I've recently added a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel so I can
> use an ipod. The input is a 1/8" stereo mini plug.
> When I plug the cord into the jack to connect the ipod I can hear the
> strobes pulsing. I don't hear the noise when the cord's not in the jack
> so I am assuming that my wiring from the 340 is not the problem.
> The aeroflash strobe power packs are in the wingtips.
> This noise isn't very loud and isn't too bothersome at cruise power
> settings but I can hear it pretty clearly powered back or taxiing. Of
> course the strobes are turned off pretty quickly after landing so
> that's not too much of an issue.
> I would, however, like to know what's causing this and what might the
> solution be. A different cord perhaps? Any ideas?
Does it do it with the Ipod turned off but still plugged into
the audio panel? Does it do it with just the cord plugged into
the audio panel but with the Ipod disconnected?
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration (big picture) |
>I think overall most GA planes and experimental are not real fire proof if
the
>heat intensity is great. Good enough to get on the ground? Depends on how
bad
>the fire is and how high you are.
>Will you be able to see, breath? What other things can we do? Fire/overheat
detection
>(alarm) and protection (fire extinguishers), PBR- Personal breathing
respirator/
>smoke hood (bag-N-a-can). If the poor fellow had one of these he might
>have been able to land, since he was not really burned before he bailed.
>The worst fire is from Av-fuel or oil followed by an exhaust fire. If the
whole
>engine crankcase is compromised and case oil is released there's not much
you
>can do, but fuel lines and oil lines should get the up most attention to
protect
>the biggest source of fuel to a fire. All I have to say is I hope my
parachute
>works if my RV catches fire in-flight, because I am out-a-there, firewall
>seals or not.
George,
I agree completely.
I am still looking at the eight pounds of 0.016" stainless steel and
wondering if it has any place in my Glastar. A pound of 3M Dot paper may be
all that is reasonable. The FAA blowtorch test seems to be from another era
and may have little relevance in a plastic airplanes.
It seems to me that the interest in sealing the firewall holes is excessive
if the cowl is glass-epoxy.
I think technical solutions exist that would make sense, perhaps an
emergency handle that would fire a dense foam fire extinguisher into the
engine compartment. I can't imagine that letting the fire burn until it is
stopped by a firewall makes much sense.
Using your seat-pack parachute will surprise your passengers.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be
smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
- E. Stobblehouse
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise in music input |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Robert -
I was advised to use this feature with the knowledge that it not only will
amplify the music input, but the overall gain of the 340 itself. Thus, it
will amplify almost any noise running around inside the box (Garmin 340).
My guess is that you have one or more inputs to the box that are picking
up very low levels of noise. When you boost the gain of the box, you begin
to hear them. John Stark of Stark Avionics is the source. We have not
installed the feature for this reason. If the device for whatever music or
entertainment we choose is too weak, we'll have to find a way to amplify
just that input.
Hope this helps,
John
<robert@thenews-journal.com> wrote:
> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>
> I finally got more data on this problem. The Garmin 340 audio panel
> utilizes a switch to ground to enable a high gain position. When I turn
> this on even with nothing plugged in and the strobes not on, I can hear
> a faint pulsing (engine running). When I plug the cord in - no ipod -
> and turn on the strobes I can hear them pulsing clearly at low power
> settings. Adding the ipod changes nothing. Without the cord plugged in
> I can't hear the strobes even when they're on and the high gain switch
> on.
> The cord I'm using is very light weight and thinner than a standard
> audio cord. It seems to be acting as some sort of antenna.
>
> Robert Dickson
>
> On Jun 19, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>>
>> I've recently added a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel so I can
>> use an ipod. The input is a 1/8" stereo mini plug.
>> When I plug the cord into the jack to connect the ipod I can hear the
>> strobes pulsing. I don't hear the noise when the cord's not in the jack
>> so I am assuming that my wiring from the 340 is not the problem.
>> The aeroflash strobe power packs are in the wingtips.
>> This noise isn't very loud and isn't too bothersome at cruise power
>> settings but I can hear it pretty clearly powered back or taxiing. Of
>> course the strobes are turned off pretty quickly after landing so
>> that's not too much of an issue.
>> I would, however, like to know what's causing this and what might the
>> solution be. A different cord perhaps? Any ideas?
>
>
> Does it do it with the Ipod turned off but still plugged into
> the audio panel? Does it do it with just the cord plugged into
> the audio panel but with the Ipod disconnected?
>
> Bob. . .
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise in music input |
John, thanks for your reply -
but what's odd about my situation is that even with the high gain
switch on I hear very little noise until I both plug in the ipod cable
and turn on the strobes. Without the cable in the jack I can't hear the
strobes. I can't understand why the cable plugged into the jack allows
the strobes to be heard.
Robert
On Jun 26, 2005, at 8:49 PM, John Schroeder wrote:
Robert -
I was advised to use this feature with the knowledge that it not only
will
amplify the music input, but the overall gain of the 340 itself. Thus,
it
will amplify almost any noise running around inside the box (Garmin
340).
My guess is that you have one or more inputs to the box that are picking
up very low levels of noise. When you boost the gain of the box, you
begin
to hear them. John Stark of Stark Avionics is the source. We have not
installed the feature for this reason. If the device for whatever music
or
entertainment we choose is too weak, we'll have to find a way to amplify
just that input.
Hope this helps,
John
<robert@thenews-journal.com> wrote:
> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>
> I finally got more data on this problem. The Garmin 340 audio panel
> utilizes a switch to ground to enable a high gain position. When I turn
> this on even with nothing plugged in and the strobes not on, I can hear
> a faint pulsing (engine running). When I plug the cord in - no ipod -
> and turn on the strobes I can hear them pulsing clearly at low power
> settings. Adding the ipod changes nothing. Without the cord plugged in
> I can't hear the strobes even when they're on and the high gain switch
> on.
> The cord I'm using is very light weight and thinner than a standard
> audio cord. It seems to be acting as some sort of antenna.
>
> Robert Dickson
>
> On Jun 19, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>>
>> I've recently added a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel so I
>> can
>> use an ipod. The input is a 1/8" stereo mini plug.
>> When I plug the cord into the jack to connect the ipod I can hear the
>> strobes pulsing. I don't hear the noise when the cord's not in the
>> jack
>> so I am assuming that my wiring from the 340 is not the problem.
>> The aeroflash strobe power packs are in the wingtips.
>> This noise isn't very loud and isn't too bothersome at cruise power
>> settings but I can hear it pretty clearly powered back or taxiing. Of
>> course the strobes are turned off pretty quickly after landing so
>> that's not too much of an issue.
>> I would, however, like to know what's causing this and what might the
>> solution be. A different cord perhaps? Any ideas?
>
>
> Does it do it with the Ipod turned off but still plugged into
> the audio panel? Does it do it with just the cord plugged into
> the audio panel but with the Ipod disconnected?
>
> Bob. . .
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strobe noise in music input |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Robert -
Is the Ipod jack on the panel connected to the shield on the cable leading
to the 340? All of our inputs wired by Stark have only one end of the
shielding grounded and that is on the 340 end.
You might also try another MP3 device on that jack to see if it picks up
the strobe noise with the amp boost on. If it does not, then the Ipod lead
and/or the Ipod itself may be the source. If the Ipod is not connected to
its cable, I'd try another cable or check how that cable is wired.
A couple more shots in the dark.
John
<robert@thenews-journal.com> wrote:
> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>
> John, thanks for your reply -
> but what's odd about my situation is that even with the high gain
> switch on I hear very little noise until I both plug in the ipod cable
> and turn on the strobes. Without the cable in the jack I can't hear the
> strobes. I can't understand why the cable plugged into the jack allows
> the strobes to be heard.
> Robert
>
> On Jun 26, 2005, at 8:49 PM, John Schroeder wrote:
>
>
>
> Robert -
>
> I was advised to use this feature with the knowledge that it not only
> will
> amplify the music input, but the overall gain of the 340 itself. Thus,
> it
> will amplify almost any noise running around inside the box (Garmin
> 340).
> My guess is that you have one or more inputs to the box that are picking
> up very low levels of noise. When you boost the gain of the box, you
> begin
> to hear them. John Stark of Stark Avionics is the source. We have not
> installed the feature for this reason. If the device for whatever music
> or
> entertainment we choose is too weak, we'll have to find a way to amplify
> just that input.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> John
>
>
> <robert@thenews-journal.com> wrote:
>
>> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>>
>> I finally got more data on this problem. The Garmin 340 audio panel
>> utilizes a switch to ground to enable a high gain position. When I turn
>> this on even with nothing plugged in and the strobes not on, I can hear
>> a faint pulsing (engine running). When I plug the cord in - no ipod -
>> and turn on the strobes I can hear them pulsing clearly at low power
>> settings. Adding the ipod changes nothing. Without the cord plugged in
>> I can't hear the strobes even when they're on and the high gain switch
>> on.
>> The cord I'm using is very light weight and thinner than a standard
>> audio cord. It seems to be acting as some sort of antenna.
>>
>> Robert Dickson
>>
>> On Jun 19, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>>>
>>> I've recently added a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel so I
>>> can
>>> use an ipod. The input is a 1/8" stereo mini plug.
>>> When I plug the cord into the jack to connect the ipod I can hear the
>>> strobes pulsing. I don't hear the noise when the cord's not in the
>>> jack
>>> so I am assuming that my wiring from the 340 is not the problem.
>>> The aeroflash strobe power packs are in the wingtips.
>>> This noise isn't very loud and isn't too bothersome at cruise power
>>> settings but I can hear it pretty clearly powered back or taxiing. Of
>>> course the strobes are turned off pretty quickly after landing so
>>> that's not too much of an issue.
>>> I would, however, like to know what's causing this and what might the
>>> solution be. A different cord perhaps? Any ideas?
>>
>>
>> Does it do it with the Ipod turned off but still plugged into
>> the audio panel? Does it do it with just the cord plugged into
>> the audio panel but with the Ipod disconnected?
>>
>> Bob. . .
>>
>>
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-22 relay question |
Bob wrote"
>>>>Looking over Z-22, I see that I've stubbed my toe. In the article on spike
catcher diodes:
I alluded to the first issue of an AD against the ACS510
genere' of off-l-r-both-start key switches wherein the
FAA took note of EXTRAORDINARY energy dump from modern
light weight replacement starter solenoid/contactors.
...
Seems the coil de-energizing spike was eating up starter
control contacts in the switches .....
Then came along a new characteristic in modern, light-weight
replacement starters. Efforts to reduce starter push
button wear with an add-on starter contactor (a la Z-11
and B&C recommendations), we noted that the back-emf generated
during spin-down of a PM starter would cause a delayed retraction
of the starter's pinon gear when the push button was released.
We STILL didn't want to run full contactor coil current
through the panel control so a heavy-duty (30A) relay
was suggested and described in Z-22. However, making
the relay a "heavy duty" device did NOT alleviate the
need for spike suppression at the contacts. The heavy
duty relay was just as vulnerable to damage from
stored energy as the off-l-r-both-start key switch.
However, while concentrating on the run-on issue, I
overlooked the need for a spike catcher.
I've updated Z-22 and published it in the Page-Per-System
drawings at:
.....
Here's a good example of how the diode bridge rectifier
assembly can be used to good electrical and mechanical
advantage. I show two of the four didoes used to suppress
the spike out of the starter contactor -AND- the
relay coil. Further, the mechanical characteristics of
this part give us good places to bring pairs of wires
into the same terminal as tie points.
You COULD replace the S704 with a HEAVIER duty still
device like a starter contactor, but it's not necessary.
Try the NEW Z-22 and see what it does for you.
<<<<<<<<<
Bob
Well I know now why I was plagued somewhat by that relay from day one. It would
blow 7.5 amp fuses in one or two starts, so I stuck in a 10A fuse and let it
go. I use a key switch to control the circuit, not a start button. I promise
to come over from the dark side soon and install toggle switches and a start
button. I use a 17 Amp Hr Panasonic RG battery. That battery drops to 9.5V during
starting. I figured the low voltage caused a higher current momentarily
which popped the fuse if the engine cranked very long. This spring the 10A fuses
started popping if the battery was not fully charged. Then the relay gave
up. So I ended up sticking in a regular starter contactor from Vans in place
of it this weekend while waiting to hear from you. That solution worked quite
well. Now you raise a question about whether I need these extra diodes with this
normal contactor. Will I be having a future problem without them like the
one I just had? Also
what is the point of using the S704 relay really, other than being a few ounces
lighter? I used it because of the lighter weight and the Z-22 drawing. Am I just
being dense and missing something obvious?
Thanks,
Mike Harfst N9TZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson(at)showmeproductions.com> |
Does the GRT have a real HSI (all analog wires for the resolver and flags)?
BMA just added this to the G3 so it can interface to just about any radio.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electronic-HSI?
-->
Paul,
I have a dual GRT EFIS and have no criticism of it at all. I fly IFR with
it and it has been rock-solid since initial use 100+ hours ago (though I
have a Mid-Continent backup AI just in case on the all electric panel).
The resolution of the GRT HSI is not dazzling, but it is accurate and easy
to use. GRT has a reputation of being a solid company that is easy to deal
with. BMs unit may be the equal of the GRT, but I'm not sure the company
is? I hear/see many more favorable things about GRT than BM, but everyone's
results may vary.
You may want to monitor GRT_EFIS(at)yahoogroups.com to catch a flavor of some
the users comments and questions. In short, there is probably nothing wrong
with the BM Lite, but you can't go wrong with the GRT HS 1 series.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
psiegel(at)fuse.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic-HSI?
I'm in the final stages of laying out the panel for a kitbuilt aircraft.
I'd like to go with an elctronic horizontal situation indicator.
Then King KI-825 and Sandel SN3500 are just too ex$pensive!
But, either the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite-G3 or the Grand Rapids EFIS Horizon
Series 1 could work.
Does anyone have any first hand experience wiring up and using either of
these units? PLEASE help me with some feedback!
Paul Siegel
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fadec installation, what architecture? |
>
>
>I would really appreciate feedback from you guys on the wiring/architecture
>of my Fadec system. The basics of my installation and wiring situation are:
>
>- All electric airplane
>
>- Flying an experimental in Europe. Therefore no IFR/IMC, no night VFR.
>
>- 60A B&C main alternator
>
>- One main battery(Odyssey PC680)
>
>- One small backup battery, comes with the Fadec installation and is
>dedicated to power the backup Fadec #2 bus only (Aerosance states that it is
>more than enough for one hour of powering the Fadec system. The Fadec system
>draws 5,5 amps)
>
>- One SD8 backup alternator
Aart,
I'm working on a response to this . . . but it's going to take
some time. You raise some good questions for which I don't want
to hip-shoot an answer.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Niles" <bniles(at)cfl.rr.com> |
I have a limited quantity of switch fences. I have two sizes:
1 3/16 X 3/4H X 3/16D
1 13/32 X 1 1/16H X 5/32D w/plastic bases
They will be first-come-first-served and are $5.50 a pair including shipping
and handling in the USA. Send me a check and I'll forward them to you.
I will try to post a photo in the aeroelectric photo share list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch Fences |
>
>I have a limited quantity of switch fences. I have two sizes:
>
>1 3/16 X 3/4H X 3/16D
>1 13/32 X 1 1/16H X 5/32D w/plastic bases
>
>They will be first-come-first-served and are $5.50 a pair including shipping
>and handling in the USA. Send me a check and I'll forward them to you.
>
>I will try to post a photo in the aeroelectric photo share list.
Send me the photo direct and I'll publish it in the Pictures
directory on AeroElectric.com
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 24v starter 14 volt system drawing ( Bob's) |
| From: | james.k.glindemann(at)exxonmobil.com |
14, 2004) at 06/27/2005 07:25:06 PM
I think the power for the K1 relay should come from the battery side
terminal
Jim G.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Allen" <goldcare2(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Need help with GM external regulator |
I need the pin-outs for a 4 terminals mid 70 GM external regulator. It has terminals
lettered F,2,3,&4. The best I can tell is: #4 is for the source 12v from
the ignition switch, #3 is the sense lead, F is the negative field rotor, and
#2 is the positive field rotor. Any help with this is most appreciated. J. Allen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
>
>I think the power for the K1 relay should come from the battery side
>terminal
>
>Jim G.
You are correct my friend. Thank you! I've revised
and published Revision -C- at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Selective Radio Reception |
>
>In a message dated 06/13/2005 6:45:35 PM Central Standard Time,
>BigD(at)DaveMorris.com writes:
>How bent is the antenna? Do the other 2 aircraft have horizontal or
>vertical antennas? Have you tried hooking up a different antenna to the
>radio?
> >>>
>
>My antenna is one of those $20-25 jobs from ACS (couldn't find in online
>catalog)- it's a simple metal rod, maybe 1/8" dia with threads on one end to
>attach the lead and bushing, runs through that insulating bushing and is
>bent about
>40 degrees from vertical maybe 2" after it exits the fuse. Located about 6"
>forward of the rear spar, offset about 6" to pilot's side of
>centerline. Coax
>sheild is grounded to a bent-up corner of the doubler plate, about 2" from
>antenna hole. Doubler is maybe 4x6", riveted to inside of skin.
>
>The other RV driver had a really thin older antenna that appeared to have
>seen better days, and recently replaced it with a used Comant style (not
>sure of
>brand, but it has the fairing at the base) and I could hear him a little
>better, but still nowhere as well as almost any other radio, unicom base,
>tower or
>a/c within at least 30 miles. The Cherokee trainer has a really old radio,
>but the person flying it that day did say he wasn't familiar with other
>planes
>not hearing him. No idea what antenna arrangement is like on that plane.
>
>I hesitate to start experimenting with other antennas as my normal reception
>picks up pattern traffic from airports 30-40 miles away (and they report
>hearing me fine) as soon as I climb to pattern altitude, just not these
>two planes.
Antennas will not be a contributor to selective reception except where
the performance of an antenna is so poor that nobody hears the radio
that talks or listens over it.
I am more inclined to consider differences in receiver bandwidth and
accuracy of the frequency control of transmitters that are difficult
to hear. It sounds as if the offending transmitters may be just enough
off-center that a receiver with accurately controlled and perhaps
narrower bandwidth in the last amplifier stages is not able to
demodulate the off-frequency transmitter.
I'd get a VHF frequency meter (counter) and measure the transmit
frequency (carrier only, no modulation needed) of all the transmitters
being compared. Odds are that the problem children are more departed
from the assigned center frequency than the others.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Help - low voltage |
>
>
>Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom of the masses.again..
>
>Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just got home from the airport
>and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the battery in our Sequoia
>Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak starting must be some
>good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start was very good, with
>high charging amperage (Bob, further to your conversation with my dad
>about the battery, I'll confirm that we read alternator amperage, not
>battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new battery, an Oddessy P680, was
>stolen from our new project, and was a little run down from various
>bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled into a steady state draw
>of about 6 amps, which has always seemed reasonable, given that we have
>one side electronic ignition, and a full panel of EI electronic
>instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we started for home near dusk.
>
>
>During operation with strobes, I noticed that the backlights on much of
>the panel instrumentation was flickering. After a little
>troubleshooting (I stress little - it was getting dark, and this was an
>ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know the following:
>
>System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and about 11.5, based on load.
>Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even running lights, and two big
>landing lights didn't cause the same voltage drop as the strobes. So I
>suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation just to be sure. But
>it seems funny to me that with the engine running strong that the
>voltage would vary very much at all! Through all of this, the amperage
>draw seemed normal for the given load being called for. Alternator is
>obviously putting something out, but I wonder about consistency. At
>one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly, just to create load, and
>the engine monitor reset - something it will do when the starter inrush
>current draws the system down. I would have thought that turning on a
>bunch of lights quickly would not have caused that much of an effect,
>though I've never tried to do that before.
>
>System is a B&C 60A alternator and the B&C/Knuckolls Voltage regulator.
>All my measuring was done on panel instrumentation, which is an
>Electronics International UBG-16 graphic engine monitor with amperage
>option. Before shutting down, I advanced the RPM to test for headset
>whine. There is a slight whine that changes with RPM, but its so very
>subtle that it may have been there forever and me not notice it.
>
>So now I'm going to read my Aeroelectric Connection for more advice. In
>the meantime, any knowledgeable opinions are appreciated. As is any
>advice on how to isolate and troubleshoot the problem, since it seems
>like Saturday is going to be a "fixing, not flying" day, once again.
The first things you need to do is extend a field sensing wire
into the cockpit. See Figure Z-23. If you have access to an
ANALOG voltmeter (it can be an el-cheapo . . . accuracy doesn't
count here), then use it to monitor field voltage. If not, a
digital will do.
Read through Note 8 of Appendix Z. There you will find a description
of taking measurements and interpreting them to deduce whether it's
an alternator or regulator problem. In other words, if voltage is
low, is the alternator incapable of responding to commands from
the regulator . . . or is the regulator giving bad commands.
Generally speaking, if the field voltage goes UP in spite of
low voltage then RPM is too low, belt is slipping or alternator
is bad. If the alternator seems to be responding properly to
commands it's being given, then you need to explore regulator
and wiring issues.
There's a powerful test tool you can fabricate from a locally
acquired generic Ford regulator fitted with wires and terminals
as shown in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg
You can disconnect all ship's wiring but the b-lead and
install this test regulator on the back of the alternator.
Note, you have no control over this system . . . it comes
on line as soon as you fire up the engine. But you can quickly
see if the alternator voltage is correct and whether or
not the alternator will support loads.
If voltage is normal, increase RPM and turn on landing
lights, pitot heat, nav lights, etc and watch the voltage.
If the alternator works, then your problem lies with
the ship's wiring and/or regulator. If the alternator
doesn't support loads, it's time to take the alternator
apart.
If you want to test the alternator at full load, you
can ADD a battery tester like this Harbor Freight
load meter:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_4.jpg
Connect load meter across battery terminals.
Leave as much of ship's loads OFF and while observing
bus voltage during elevated RPM operation, carefully
increase load tester to 40-60 amps (rating of alternator).
You'll have to do this with some degree of care because
the load tester is designed to do testing at MUCH
larger currents . . . however, it provides a compact.
convenient means for loading an alternator up to
its rated output. If your alternator has a loadmeter,
use this instrument to gage when then load-tester
setting is right. The bus should be close to 14v
at 100% load on the alternator.
I've used this technique to trouble shoot many airplanes
and mechanics were amazed that I could tell them EXACTLY
what component needed changed before we removed a single
component from the airplane. Most mechanics troubleshoot
by putting known good components on until the problem
goes away. It's much better to figure out ways to
exercise regulators and alternators to their limits
while still bolted to the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 06/27/05 |
Bob,
Aart and I have been in discussion about how to do this for some time. I'm
interested to see what you come up with since I'm going down a similar road
to Aart. However, I will have IFR capability, so I was going for the two
alternator/one battery Z-12 set-up.
I hope you can help Aart with is dilemma, and in doing so, you might be
helping me too!
Thanks,
Mark. RV7. Finishing.
www.4sierratango.com
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fadec installation, what architecture?
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >I would really appreciate feedback from you guys on the
>wiring/architecture
> >of my Fadec system. The basics of my installation and wiring situation
>are:
> >
> >- All electric airplane
> >
> >- Flying an experimental in Europe. Therefore no IFR/IMC, no night VFR.
> >
> >- 60A B&C main alternator
> >
> >- One main battery(Odyssey PC680)
> >
> >- One small backup battery, comes with the Fadec installation and is
> >dedicated to power the backup Fadec #2 bus only (Aerosance states that it
>is
> >more than enough for one hour of powering the Fadec system. The Fadec
>system
> >draws 5,5 amps)
> >
> >- One SD8 backup alternator
>
> Aart,
>
> I'm working on a response to this . . . but it's going to take
> some time. You raise some good questions for which I don't want
> to hip-shoot an answer.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Email RV
| From: | Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator Belt tension |
In perusing my Lycoming installation drawing for the O-360-A series
(Lycoming Drawing no 04C 63086) the other day, I saw the following note:
Alternator Belt Tension Requirements:
New Belt - mid belt span deflection of .31 (5/16) inches with 14
pounds load
Used Belt - mid belt span deflection of .31 (5/16) inches with 10
pounds load
OR
For a 3/8 inch wide belt:
New Belt - 12 ft-lb to slip the belt at the alternator pulley
Used Belt - 8 ft-lb to slip the belt at the alternator pulley
The torque/slip method seems to be easy to do.
Richard Reynolds
Norfolk, VA
RV-6A flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | wig wag suitability |
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
06/28/2005 04:21:16 PM
Greetings
Im a list newby working on an RV-7A that I inherited mid-stream from
another builder. I am currently trying to get up to speed on electrical
systems and planning the panel. Recently purchased and read Aero Electric
Connection book cover to cover, and am making my way through a second time
to help absorb it all. Great stuff.
Anywho, Im not really planning on doing night flight, but would like to be
as visible as possible in the daytime, especially near airports. For this
purpose, I am thinking I would go ahead and have standard Vans (Whelen?)
strobe/position lights in each wingtip, but was also considering installing
wingtip landing lights with the wig wag function. Does this make sense
for what I want to accomplish? Is the wig wag good for daytime visibility
( at least from the front)? Is it complete overkill with the additional
strobe? Will a landing light setup like that shown on the creative air web
site
(http://www.creativair.com/cva/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=42)
with a wig wag function be a good fit for me? Give it to me
straight...bluntness works well with me.
thanks
Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wig wag suitability |
| From: | James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com> |
Erich,
When in a busy day time environment, the strobes are not seen.
The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
not.
Jim Nelson
RV9-A
St Petersburg Fl.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | wig wag suitability |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
For daytime work my personal experience is strobes are not worth the
extra weight/cost.
I can always see landing lights in the pattern and if they flash they
are surprisingly noticable.
Besides which a wig-wag relay is about $30 whereas strobes are much
more.
FWIW
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability
Greetings
Im a list newby working on an RV-7A that I inherited mid-stream from
another builder. I am currently trying to get up to speed on electrical
systems and planning the panel. Recently purchased and read Aero
Electric Connection book cover to cover, and am making my way through a
second time to help absorb it all. Great stuff.
Anywho, Im not really planning on doing night flight, but would like to
be as visible as possible in the daytime, especially near airports. For
this purpose, I am thinking I would go ahead and have standard Vans
(Whelen?) strobe/position lights in each wingtip, but was also
considering installing wingtip landing lights with the wig wag
function. Does this make sense for what I want to accomplish? Is the
wig wag good for daytime visibility ( at least from the front)? Is it
complete overkill with the additional strobe? Will a landing light
setup like that shown on the creative air web site
(http://www.creativair.com/cva/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=42)
with a wig wag function be a good fit for me? Give it to me
straight...bluntness works well with me.
thanks
Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wig wag suitability |
> The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
> not.
This maybe be true if you are going right at them and they are looking at
you. If you are intersecting at an angle, the strobe has better chance of
being seen. Better to have both lights and both ON. I do not use my
landing lights normally unless I am inbound for a landing or pattern work.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers
that it can bribe the public with the public's own money."
Alexis de Toqueville
----- Original Message -----
From: "James H Nelson" <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability
>
> Erich,
> When in a busy day time environment, the strobes are not seen.
> The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
> not.
>
> Jim Nelson
> RV9-A
> St Petersburg Fl.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
I'm going to make the decision on which alternator and base plan to
go with very soon, but have a simple question for those in-the-know.
Engine is an IO-540.
I'm leaning towards doing the B&C Alternator with OV protection as
my main alternator. Looking at using Z-13/8 for my base plan.
I plan to add a small 12Ah or less battery into the scheme, for
2 purposes. #1, during engine start, I'll have my EIS turned on,
and operating on this separate battery, possibly along with my
Chelton that has weather on it from doing my flight planning.
#2, I'm using lightspeed ignition, and by keeping it on it's
own battery during start, I have no worries about any kickback
caused by the high draw of the lightweight starter. One additional
benefit is that as long as I separate this battery from the
circuit if I ever have a failure, I can keep my Lightspeed
ignition running on a separate circuit, even if I drew my
main battery down to nothing.
I'd go with P-Mags, but there aren't 6-cyl versions out yet.
Some day, when they're out, and proven, I'll yank off my
mag and lightspeed and put those on to simplify things....maybe.
I haven't got all of the normal operating currents figured out
for my full-panel, and minimum-draw configuration, but...
Let's estimate that my minimal-draw needs run in the 8-12A range,
but I'm only using the SD-8 backup alternator. I know this
isn't ideal, but I'm under the assumption that this just means
that if I require 12A, and I have the SD-8, my battery will
begin to discharge, but only at a 4A rate. Is this correct?
The way I see it is, I don't *really* need the SD-8, because
I have an attitude indicator on it's own battery, and the
main battery or that extra battery could power my EFIS and a
Nav/Com for enough time to get me on the ground...I'm not
interested in staying in the air for 4 hours with a dead
main alternator. But, if my assumption about the draw on the
SD-8 is true, adding the SD-8 is cheap enough to give just
a little more juice so that I can worry less about my load
requirements, and throw in my Autopilot+servos, an interior
light, or small things like that, without causing a major
concern.
I'd go with Z-14, but that just seems like overkill for me,
and it costs a lot more. Besides that, there isn't really
a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate
battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems
the reasonable thing.
Comments appreciated, and thanks in advance!
PS: I'd buy my alternator right now, but does anyone know if
there are OSH specials from B&C that would make me delay until
that time? I don't need the stuff now, but would like to
just bury the hatchet and commit so I can quit agonizing over
all these choices.
Tim
--
Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really
a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate
battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems
the reasonable thing."
I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a
GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe
that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know
we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set
forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does -
but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during
engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$).
So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual
alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff.
I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a
couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators
during flight.
Bryan Hooks
RV-7A, slowbuild
Finish kit came today
Knoxville, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wig wag suitability |
Folks, a landing light saved my life.
I was cruising at 3500 feet eastbound, and I notice a bright light dead
ahead. By the time I resolved the wings, I had to take evasive action--
tight right bank, a look out the window at the other pilot.... who
didn't see me.
The only thing right that he did was fly with his landing light on.
For fast approaching traffic, the few seconds of extra warning is a life
saver. Fly with you lights on, pulselights, wig-wags, strobes, whatever.
I alos bought a Monroy ATD-300 traffic monitor. Great device.
Vern Little RV-9A
LarryRobertHelming wrote:
>
>
>
>>The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
>>not.
>>
>>
>
>This maybe be true if you are going right at them and they are looking at
>you. If you are intersecting at an angle, the strobe has better chance of
>being seen. Better to have both lights and both ON. I do not use my
>landing lights normally unless I am inbound for a landing or pattern work.
>
>Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies
>
>"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers
> that it can bribe the public with the public's own money."
>
>Alexis de Toqueville
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "James H Nelson" <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Erich,
>> When in a busy day time environment, the strobes are not seen.
>>The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
>>not.
>>
>>Jim Nelson
>>RV9-A
>>St Petersburg Fl.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <2eyedocs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Decomissioning TIS Sites??? |
It looks lke the powers that be don't think the TIS sites are worth expanding much
less keeping. Hope this isn't a sign of things to come :-(
http://www.pennavionics.com/TIS_ISSUES.html
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark" <2eyedocs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Decomissioning TIS Sites??? |
Does anyone know the name of THE avionics books for decision making on wiring,
alternator choice, etc. Can't seem to find it in the archives.
Thanks,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com |
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you want
to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting the
engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to listen
to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only
electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn on
the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on
everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as my
RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep the
engine running.
So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery and
even got rid of the SD8.
I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex electrical
systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only feeds
or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile.
Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS
angels are finally getting through.
Michele Delsol
RV8 - Fuselage
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup
>
>
>
> Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really
> a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate
> battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems
> the reasonable thing."
>
> I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a
> GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe
> that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know
> we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set
> forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does -
> but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during
> engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$).
>
> So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual
> alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff.
> I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a
> couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators
> during flight.
>
> Bryan Hooks
> RV-7A, slowbuild
> Finish kit came today
> Knoxville, TN
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Decomissioning TIS Sites??? |
> It looks lke the powers that be don't think the TIS sites are worth
> expanding much less keeping. Hope this isn't a sign of things to
> come :-(
>
> http://www.pennavionics.com/TIS_ISSUES.html
>
Budget cuts from the feds have been "coming" for quite some
time. It always sounds right when it's a "welfare queen"
loosing her benefits, but when it's one of our pet services,
it seems rather mean. I guess that tells us something about
ourselves.
What I really think is surprising is that we are all behind
an archaic, expensive, slow, inefficient centralized traffic
awareness system. The simplest system for airplanes to
send and receive traffic info would be using a distributed
system. There are a couple of examples out there:
http://www.collisionavoidance.org/
http://www.flarm.ch/index_en.html
The problem right now is that the feds are blocking the
use of these systems, since they lose control if we just
do it ourselves. Perhaps a positive side effect of the
TIS budget cuts could be an opening for a more effective,
inexpensive distributed traffic system. I can dream...
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Canopy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Denny Mortensen" <dennymortensen(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Help - low voltage |
Since I know very little to nothing about aircraft alternators this
comment is really from the peanut gallery. However just curious this
situation reminds me of what happens when you blow the diodes out of an
alternator? Of course it has been years since I have seen this happen so
my memory could be way off.
Denny
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help - low voltage
-->
>
>
>Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom of the masses.again..
>
>Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just got home from the airport
>and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the battery in our Sequoia
>Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak starting must be some
>good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start was very good, with
>high charging amperage (Bob, further to your conversation with my dad
>about the battery, I'll confirm that we read alternator amperage, not
>battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new battery, an Oddessy P680,
>was stolen from our new project, and was a little run down from various
>bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled into a steady state
>draw of about 6 amps, which has always seemed reasonable, given that we
>have one side electronic ignition, and a full panel of EI electronic
>instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we started for home near
>dusk.
>
>
>During operation with strobes, I noticed that the backlights on much of
>the panel instrumentation was flickering. After a little
>troubleshooting (I stress little - it was getting dark, and this was an
>ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know the following:
>
>System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and about 11.5, based on load.
>Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even running lights, and two big
>landing lights didn't cause the same voltage drop as the strobes. So I
>suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation just to be sure. But
>it seems funny to me that with the engine running strong that the
>voltage would vary very much at all! Through all of this, the amperage
>draw seemed normal for the given load being called for. Alternator is
>obviously putting something out, but I wonder about consistency. At
>one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly, just to create load,
>and the engine monitor reset - something it will do when the starter
>inrush current draws the system down. I would have thought that
>turning on a bunch of lights quickly would not have caused that much of
>an effect, though I've never tried to do that before.
>
>System is a B&C 60A alternator and the B&C/Knuckolls Voltage regulator.
>All my measuring was done on panel instrumentation, which is an
>Electronics International UBG-16 graphic engine monitor with amperage
>option. Before shutting down, I advanced the RPM to test for headset
>whine. There is a slight whine that changes with RPM, but its so very
>subtle that it may have been there forever and me not notice it.
>
>So now I'm going to read my Aeroelectric Connection for more advice.
>In the meantime, any knowledgeable opinions are appreciated. As is any
>advice on how to isolate and troubleshoot the problem, since it seems
>like Saturday is going to be a "fixing, not flying" day, once again.
The first things you need to do is extend a field sensing wire
into the cockpit. See Figure Z-23. If you have access to an
ANALOG voltmeter (it can be an el-cheapo . . . accuracy doesn't
count here), then use it to monitor field voltage. If not, a
digital will do.
Read through Note 8 of Appendix Z. There you will find a description
of taking measurements and interpreting them to deduce whether it's
an alternator or regulator problem. In other words, if voltage is
low, is the alternator incapable of responding to commands from
the regulator . . . or is the regulator giving bad commands.
Generally speaking, if the field voltage goes UP in spite of
low voltage then RPM is too low, belt is slipping or alternator
is bad. If the alternator seems to be responding properly to
commands it's being given, then you need to explore regulator
and wiring issues.
There's a powerful test tool you can fabricate from a locally
acquired generic Ford regulator fitted with wires and terminals
as shown in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg
You can disconnect all ship's wiring but the b-lead and
install this test regulator on the back of the alternator.
Note, you have no control over this system . . . it comes
on line as soon as you fire up the engine. But you can quickly
see if the alternator voltage is correct and whether or
not the alternator will support loads.
If voltage is normal, increase RPM and turn on landing
lights, pitot heat, nav lights, etc and watch the voltage.
If the alternator works, then your problem lies with
the ship's wiring and/or regulator. If the alternator
doesn't support loads, it's time to take the alternator
apart.
If you want to test the alternator at full load, you
can ADD a battery tester like this Harbor Freight
load meter:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_4.jpg
Connect load meter across battery terminals.
Leave as much of ship's loads OFF and while observing
bus voltage during elevated RPM operation, carefully
increase load tester to 40-60 amps (rating of alternator).
You'll have to do this with some degree of care because
the load tester is designed to do testing at MUCH
larger currents . . . however, it provides a compact.
convenient means for loading an alternator up to
its rated output. If your alternator has a loadmeter,
use this instrument to gage when then load-tester
setting is right. The bus should be close to 14v
at 100% load on the alternator.
I've used this technique to trouble shoot many airplanes
and mechanics were amazed that I could tell them EXACTLY
what component needed changed before we removed a single
component from the airplane. Most mechanics troubleshoot
by putting known good components on until the problem
goes away. It's much better to figure out ways to
exercise regulators and alternators to their limits
while still bolted to the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vern W." <vernw(at)ev1.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
After fiddling with some of the same issues, I've decided (at Bob's
suggestion) to simply roll the Z-30 design into the Z-13/8.
Essentially, what you're doing is adding a (very) small second battery
that will serve as an isolated source for power to the EI and EFIS during
start up, and also serve as an "exciter" in order to power up the SD-8 in
case the main battery breaks a terminal (or whatever).
Simple, cheap, and adds loads of dependability to the system for those
of us with more worries than we know what to do with :-)
Vern
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup
>
> Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really
> a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate
> battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems
> the reasonable thing."
>
> I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a
> GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe
> that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know
> we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set
> forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does -
> but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during
> engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$).
>
> So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual
> alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff.
> I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a
> couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators
> during flight.
>
> Bryan Hooks
> RV-7A, slowbuild
> Finish kit came today
> Knoxville, TN
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John & Amy Eckel" <eckel1(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wig wag suitability |
I recently saw wig wag headlights on a motorcycle...Honda I believe.
This might be a good source for a low cost wig wag setup.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "rv-9a-online" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability
>
>
> Folks, a landing light saved my life.
>
> I was cruising at 3500 feet eastbound, and I notice a bright light dead
> ahead. By the time I resolved the wings, I had to take evasive action--
> tight right bank, a look out the window at the other pilot.... who
> didn't see me.
>
> The only thing right that he did was fly with his landing light on.
>
> For fast approaching traffic, the few seconds of extra warning is a life
> saver. Fly with you lights on, pulselights, wig-wags, strobes, whatever.
>
> I alos bought a Monroy ATD-300 traffic monitor. Great device.
>
> Vern Little RV-9A
>
> LarryRobertHelming wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
>>>not.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>This maybe be true if you are going right at them and they are looking at
>>you. If you are intersecting at an angle, the strobe has better chance of
>>being seen. Better to have both lights and both ON. I do not use my
>>landing lights normally unless I am inbound for a landing or pattern work.
>>
>>Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies
>>
>>"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers
>> that it can bribe the public with the public's own money."
>>
>>Alexis de Toqueville
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "James H Nelson" <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
>>To:
>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Erich,
>>> When in a busy day time environment, the strobes are not seen.
>>>The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will
>>>not.
>>>
>>>Jim Nelson
>>>RV9-A
>>>St Petersburg Fl.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | alternator problem |
| From: | "Jack Eckdahl" <jeckdahl(at)sjrwmd.com> |
I fly a Vans RV9A with a 0-320 D1A lycoming engine. I have had no
problems with my Vans purchased nippon 60amp internally regulated
alternator untill yesterday. (30 hours on the engine and alt.) I turned
on the master and noted that the voltage was at just under 12v. I
started the engine with all avionics, switches, lights, etc. turned off
as usual. After starting I noticed the voltage rising BEFORE switching
on the alt. field. It sort of stabilized at around 14v+. When
switching on the alt field the voltage quickly rose to 16v then to
16+++. I religiously watch the guages and this has never happened
before. In the past the voltmeter would only show an increase AFTER
switching on the alt field and then it would always register around 14v.
I shut down, repeated, same result. Shut down and went home. What
would cause this? thanks in advance. Jack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wig wag suitability |
From my website: "During World War II, British Hudson bombers were outfitted
with scores of forward facing bright lamps. A rear-facing photocell
automatically adjusted the lamps to match the background skys brightness.
This was deadly to German U-boats that could not see an approaching attack
bomber until it was far too late! Steady (non-pulsed) lights during the
daytime can actually make an approaching airplane invisible!"
Locomotives use a single wig-wagging beam (or whatever it's called). I have
always felt that single-headlamp airplanes would still do well with either a
blinking lamp or a high-beam low-beam wig wag.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and
deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: alternator problem |
>
>I fly a Vans RV9A with a 0-320 D1A lycoming engine. I have had no
>problems with my Vans purchased nippon 60amp internally regulated
>alternator untill yesterday. (30 hours on the engine and alt.) I turned
>on the master and noted that the voltage was at just under 12v. I
>started the engine with all avionics, switches, lights, etc. turned off
>as usual. After starting I noticed the voltage rising BEFORE switching
>on the alt. field. It sort of stabilized at around 14v+. When
>switching on the alt field the voltage quickly rose to 16v then to
>16+++. I religiously watch the guages and this has never happened
>before. In the past the voltmeter would only show an increase AFTER
>switching on the alt field and then it would always register around 14v.
>I shut down, repeated, same result. Shut down and went home. What
>would cause this? thanks in advance. Jack
The voltage rises this high for one reason only . . .
regulation of alternator output is badly misadjusted
or totally non-existent.
It would be interesting to get a detailed failure analysis
of this machine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pfsiegel <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Amps and volts for both Z-14 buses? |
For my Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus system I would like
to keep track of the voltage and amps for EACH of the two separate and
independent buses.
I will use the ACS-2002 electronic engine monitoring system.
What would be the best way to monitor the two systems?
Should I have a "monitor select switch" that selects which bus the ACS
is looking at?
Or???
I sure appreciate all the good input from this list!
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
>
>
>Your battery will make up the difference. Remember that the SD-8 output
>varies quite a bit with speed. One of the emergency procedures would be
>to run the engine at high RPM in the evnt your main alt goes south.
>
>Frank
This points out the advantage of having an altenrator load-meter
and voltmeter in on the panel. The SD-8 at faster rpms will put
out more than 8A when loaded to the point where the battery begins
to delivery significant energy. The SD-8 output ratings are
understandably cited for BATTERY CHARGING modes of 13.8 or more
volts output. The output power chart says . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf
. . . we can expect it to meet the 8A rating if shaft
rpm is kept at 3500 or above. I've forgotten the drive
pad gear ratios for the common engines but I think you
can depend on 8A of CHARGE LEVEL output at 2400
rpm in cruise.
As you INCREASE load, the available output will go up.
We know that a battery doesn't begin to deliver energy
until some value just under 12.5 volts. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/1217_3n8_Discharge.pdf
Here we see that a 17 a.h. battery delivers 3 amps of
output for better than 7 hours before the voltage drops
below 11 volts. What's the SD-8's output at 11 volts?
Don't know. But I suspect it's greater than 10A.
Assuming the REGULATOR is sufficiently heat-sinked
and cooled to carry this current level, then one could
comfortably expect an SD-8/17 a.h. combo to supply 13+
amps for about 7 hours.
The same battery delivered 8A for 2+ hours. This suggests
that the same battery/alternator combo is good for 18+
amps for something on the order of 2 hours.
Running at higher RPM would improve these figures
slightly. Again, if you KNOW what your endurance
loads are going to be and you have a loadmeter on
the alternator, you can easily deduce what engine
rpm produces what output during endurance-mode
operations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wig wag suitability |
>
>
>I recently saw wig wag headlights on a motorcycle...Honda I believe.
>This might be a good source for a low cost wig wag setup.
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Help - low voltage |
>
>
>Since I know very little to nothing about aircraft alternators this
>comment is really from the peanut gallery. However just curious this
>situation reminds me of what happens when you blow the diodes out of an
>alternator? Of course it has been years since I have seen this happen so
>my memory could be way off.
Diodes seldom "blow" anymore . . . There is risk that a lead wire
will crack causing the diode to go open . . . but I've not seen
a shorted diode in many years.
A diode shorting will cripple the alternator. Available output
will go down significantly and large fault currents will flow
internally to the alternator . . . but many an alternator continued
to function in the crippled state if there was enough cooling.
An open diode also cripples the alternator without making anything
get hot. A 40A machine drops to something just over a 20A machine.
Drove a car for several years with this condition that didn't surface
until I fixed the air-conditioner and suddenly demanded more of
the alternator than it could deliver.
About 10 years ago I worked a twin-Cessna accident where
BOTH alternators failed with shorted stator windings (overhaul
shop left slot liners out of the stator stack). Poor bastard
managed to find the end of the runway with the windshield iced
over but lost the airplane trying to land by visual clues
he could see out the fowl weather window. He was 30 seconds
short of 'home safe' when the airplane departed the runway
and rolled up in a ball.
Top 3 alternator problems today would have to be broken
mounting hardware, poor installation/maintenance practice,
and the occasional failed regulator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
So changing the battery every year or so and having an SD-8 back up
should give me a comfortable (dead alternator in IMC does not sound
comfortable...:)..) 2 hours to get it wherever I'm going......Yes I like
it.
I would like the Dynon engine monitor to have two amp meters (one on
each alt) for this very reason...Guess I could use two shunts and a
changeover switch...or is this cross connecting the two systems in a way
that one shouldn't?
Frank
P.s Accesory pad runs at 1.3 to 1 on the IO 360...Thus 3500RPM is 2692
engine RPM...So with prop restriction of below 2600 in cruise will only
see 3380RPM at the SD-8.
This points out the advantage of having an altenrator load-meter
and voltmeter in on the panel. The SD-8 at faster rpms will put
out more than 8A when loaded to the point where the battery begins
to delivery significant energy. The SD-8 output ratings are
understandably cited for BATTERY CHARGING modes of 13.8 or more
volts output. The output power chart says . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf
. . . we can expect it to meet the 8A rating if shaft
rpm is kept at 3500 or above. I've forgotten the drive
pad gear ratios for the common engines but I think you
can depend on 8A of CHARGE LEVEL output at 2400
rpm in cruise.
As you INCREASE load, the available output will go up.
We know that a battery doesn't begin to deliver energy
until some value just under 12.5 volts. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/1217_3n8_Discharge.pdf
Here we see that a 17 a.h. battery delivers 3 amps of
output for better than 7 hours before the voltage drops
below 11 volts. What's the SD-8's output at 11 volts?
Don't know. But I suspect it's greater than 10A.
Assuming the REGULATOR is sufficiently heat-sinked
and cooled to carry this current level, then one could
comfortably expect an SD-8/17 a.h. combo to supply 13+
amps for about 7 hours.
The same battery delivered 8A for 2+ hours. This suggests
that the same battery/alternator combo is good for 18+
amps for something on the order of 2 hours.
Running at higher RPM would improve these figures
slightly. Again, if you KNOW what your endurance
loads are going to be and you have a loadmeter on
the alternator, you can easily deduce what engine
rpm produces what output during endurance-mode
operations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: alternator problem |
| From: | "Jack Eckdahl" <jeckdahl(at)sjrwmd.com> |
Bob: I expect that the alternator will be replaced by Vans. Concerning
interest in a detailed analysis of this unit; how would one go about
getting it analyzed?
Also: I am curious how the voltage regulator could show an increase (to
14v+) with engine start-up without ever switching on the alternator
field switch??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Question for Bob,
As I get closer to thinking about my all electric airplane, single batt,
dual Alt system I was curious why you show the standby alt feeding
downstream of the battery contactor.
If the main alt died the contactor would need to remain energised in
order to charge (or load balance) the battery. I note the alt you show
is a fairly beefy 20A unit.
In a smaller SD-8 setup I wonder if it would be better to connect the
SD-8 directly to the battery buss (via a fuse and switch). That way if
the main alt died (or major short) one could drop out the battery
contactor and separate out the essential loads as they would all be on
the battery buss. This would also allow one to make choices between
avionics depending on weather vs endurance time required etc.
What do you think?....I am assuming in my position that one would not
normally switch the SD-8 off...Unless it shorted out or something, but
with just 8 amps one does not need a contactor.
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: alternator problem |
>
>Bob: I expect that the alternator will be replaced by Vans. Concerning
>interest in a detailed analysis of this unit; how would one go about
>getting it analyzed?
Not easy. Van's isn't going to do it. Van's supplier will
simply put it back into the overhaul stream. The analysis would
have to be done by a teardown inspection by someone really
interested in knowing the failure mode.
>Also: I am curious how the voltage regulator could show an increase (to
>14v+) with engine start-up without ever switching on the alternator
>field switch??
Oops. I missed that. After re-reading your original
post, I'm wondering if there's a wiring/functionality
issue. Sounds like the alternator was coming on line without
being told to . . . and adding the + input command was irritating
the system into an ov condition.
Have you pulled the alternator off the airplane already?
If not, repeat the experiment but see how the bus voltage
behaves with the alternator control switch left OFF and
various loads like landing lights, etc. are added to the
system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Aart van't Veld" <avtveld(at)tiscali.nl> |
"'Harke Smits'"
| Subject: | RE: Fadec installation, what architecture? |
2.31 DATE_IN_FUTURE_24_48 Date: is 24 to 48 hours after Received: date
Bob,
Thanks for your help. I am looking forward to your "shooting". Take your
time in loading the guns!
I have been doing a lot of head scratching again on this subject for the
past days. Please think along with me here:
The basic problem once again: All electric airplane, VFR only but I do want
some peace of mind redundancy. Using the Fadec small aux battery in
combination with a SD8 alternator that powers the aux/ebus only, could mean
using the following architectures:
Z14, split bus, Fadec version:
Use a SD8 instead of the SD20. Fadec #1 bus wired to the main power
distribution bus and Fadec #2 bus wired to the alternate bus. This setup
should be OK. When the main alternator goes down, one flips the cross-feed
switch and the aux dc pwr master switch and the aux bus receives power from
the main bat and aux bat and SD8. Enough energy to last for at least two
hours. I could even shut down the main bat contactor to save main battery
energy for final part of the flight.
Drawback: complex installation......
Z13/20 but using the SD8 instead to get a 8-Amp E-bus/Fadec #2 bus:
Simpler installation than the Z14. I would have to add the aux Fadec battery
but be rid of the Z14 cross feed contactor and switch.
Z12:
Perhaps the best solution after all? I would get rid of the SD8 and Fadec
aux battery and use the (indeed more expensive and perhaps a little heavier)
SD20 instead but it would give me all redundancy that I would want and
enough electronic juice to power almost the complete system in VFR mode.
Well, I hope that my reasoning does make some sense. I am more than ready to
be "shot" with some of your professional advice!
Perhaps some Fadec fliers/builders who have already gone along this road can
chime in too.......?
Aart
I'm working on a response to this . . . but it's going to take
some time. You raise some good questions for which I don't want
to hip-shoot an answer.
Bob . . .
I would really appreciate feedback from you guys on the wiring/architecture
of my Fadec system. The basics of my installation and wiring situation are:
- All electric airplane
- Flying an experimental in Europe. Therefore no IFR/IMC, no night VFR.
- 60A B&C main alternator
- One main battery(Odyssey PC680)
- One small backup battery, comes with the Fadec installation and is
dedicated to power the backup Fadec #2 bus only (Aerosance states that it is
more than enough for one hour of powering the Fadec system. The Fadec system
draws 5,5 amps)
- One SD8 backup alternator
The Fadec system has two ECU's / busses for full redundancy. I will have the
Fadec #1 bus powered by the main power distribution bus and the Fadec #2 bus
powered by the Ebus. The basic installation that I have in mind now is using
the straightforward Z11 diagram, but adding a backup system that will only
power the Ebus (and back up Fadec #2 bus). This backup system will off
course have the Fadec battery but I would also like to add a SD8 alternator.
The Aerosance wiring diagram http://www.fadec.com/pdfs/WD12556G.PDF shows
this backup alternator/backup battery concept too. They complete this backup
system by adding a battery contactor and an alt/bat switch.
Does this all make sense to you or am I overdoing the redundancy issue here
and by adding the SD8 making the system more complex than necessary? Is
there another architecture that is better suited for my profile?
Thanks for your input,
Aart van't Veld
<http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII> http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: alternator problem |
| From: | "Jack Eckdahl" <jeckdahl(at)sjrwmd.com> |
Thanks Bob: I haven't pulled the alternator yet. I will try your
suggested experiment. I hate to use up too much of this groups time and
space with this thread, but when I add loads with the switch off, I'm
not sure what I'll be looking for (or then what to do about it) . I can
note the Voltage response and post the results for comments if that's
OK? Just so you know, re: the alternator coming online without being
told to do so; just started. If it's a wiring issue, seems like it
would have done this since the first start-up 30 hrs ago?. Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem
-->
>-->
>
>Bob: I expect that the alternator will be replaced by Vans.
>Concerning interest in a detailed analysis of this unit; how would one
>go about getting it analyzed?
Not easy. Van's isn't going to do it. Van's supplier will
simply put it back into the overhaul stream. The analysis would
have to be done by a teardown inspection by someone really
interested in knowing the failure mode.
>Also: I am curious how the voltage regulator could show an increase
>(to
>14v+) with engine start-up without ever switching on the alternator
>field switch??
Oops. I missed that. After re-reading your original
post, I'm wondering if there's a wiring/functionality
issue. Sounds like the alternator was coming on line without
being told to . . . and adding the + input command was irritating
the system into an ov condition.
Have you pulled the alternator off the airplane already?
If not, repeat the experiment but see how the bus voltage
behaves with the alternator control switch left OFF and
various loads like landing lights, etc. are added to the
system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: alternator problem |
>
>Thanks Bob: I haven't pulled the alternator yet. I will try your
>suggested experiment. I hate to use up too much of this groups time and
>space with this thread, but when I add loads with the switch off, I'm
>not sure what I'll be looking for (or then what to do about it) .
It's far better that we used $time$ on this list to
identify, understand and fix problems with hardware
than to discuss the value of flaps during gusty conditions
or (gasp . . . get into arguments/discussions on physics
of the downwind turn).
Please feel free to discuss it right here so that all
who are interested may benefit from what we discover.
> I can
>note the Voltage response and post the results for comments if that's
>OK? Just so you know, re: the alternator coming online without being
>told to do so; just started.
Okay, you're already of the opinion that the alternator
is coming on line without being commanded to do so
and 'appears' to operate normally until you actually
do close the alternator ON switch whereupon it goes into
an overvoltage condition.
> If it's a wiring issue, seems like it
>would have done this since the first start-up 30 hrs ago?.
Good point. It would be VERY interesting to see a schematic
of the regulator to see if a failure mode commensurate with
your observations can be deduced.
Perhaps we don't need to repeat the experiment if you
can tell us that except for un-commanded operation, the
alternator appears to otherwise operate normally.
What part of the country do you live in? I think I'd
pop for UPS shipping both ways to get my hands on that
alternator for non-invasive inspection on an alternator
test stand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan Hooks" <bryanhooks(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
Guess everyone has their own design goals. You seem to be happy with
yours. I want to keep an EFIS screen and an EIS screen on during start
without upsetting the electrons. The EIS for monitoring the engine (oil
psi,etc)during start, and the EFIS 'cause I don't want to turn it on for
flight planning (etc) only to have to cycle the power off and back on
for the engine start. I am simply trying to figure out the most
effective way to do this.
-bryan
rv7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup
May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you
want
to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting
the
engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to
listen
to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only
electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn
on
the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on
everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as
my
RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep
the
engine running.
So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery
and
even got rid of the SD8.
I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex
electrical
systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only
feeds
or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile.
Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS
angels are finally getting through.
Michele Delsol
RV8 - Fuselage
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup
>
>
>
> Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really
> a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate
> battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems
> the reasonable thing."
>
> I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With
a
> GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe
> that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I
know
> we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set
> forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does
-
> but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during
> engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$).
>
> So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the
dual
> alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff.
> I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a
> couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators
> during flight.
>
> Bryan Hooks
> RV-7A, slowbuild
> Finish kit came today
> Knoxville, TN
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: alternator problem |
| From: | "Jack Eckdahl" <jeckdahl(at)sjrwmd.com> |
Bob: I ran the test as you suggested. I have a minor (maybe major) correction.
I started the engine normally with the master on. I did not switch on the alternator.
Voltage began to rise to around 14v, but then kept going up. It did
not stop at 14v as I reported earlier. Maybe I didn't wait long enough last
time to observe this. I switched on the nav lights and voltage slowly went back
down to around 14v, needle stopped and then started going back up again. I
added the landing light, same thing happened. I then added the strobe lights
and it went back down to around 13v and then more quickly went all the way up
to 16+++. I then shut down. I didn't want to add any more load, especially
avionics. I'll send you the alternator for the bench test if you are still interested.
In the interest of education, I'll split the shipping with you. Does
the behavior described change you thoughts. I've been told by others that it's
the internal regulator failure. And that replacing it is simple. I continue
to be puzzled why the thing by-passes the alt switch? In the past all I had
to do was turn off the switch and the voltage would return to battery voltage
around 12+v. I'll be traveling the next few days (by auto) so I won't be able
to ship it untill around July 5. thanks, Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Cc:=09
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem
>
>Thanks Bob: I haven't pulled the alternator yet. I will try your
>suggested experiment. I hate to use up too much of this groups time and
>space with this thread, but when I add loads with the switch off, I'm
>not sure what I'll be looking for (or then what to do about it) .
It's far better that we used $time$ on this list to
identify, understand and fix problems with hardware
than to discuss the value of flaps during gusty conditions
or (gasp . . . get into arguments/discussions on physics
of the downwind turn).
Please feel free to discuss it right here so that all
who are interested may benefit from what we discover.
> I can
>note the Voltage response and post the results for comments if that's
>OK? Just so you know, re: the alternator coming online without being
>told to do so; just started.
Okay, you're already of the opinion that the alternator
is coming on line without being commanded to do so
and 'appears' to operate normally until you actually
do close the alternator ON switch whereupon it goes into
an overvoltage condition.
> If it's a wiring issue, seems like it
>would have done this since the first start-up 30 hrs ago?.
Good point. It would be VERY interesting to see a schematic
of the regulator to see if a failure mode commensurate with
your observations can be deduced.
Perhaps we don't need to repeat the experiment if you
can tell us that except for un-commanded operation, the
alternator appears to otherwise operate normally.
What part of the country do you live in? I think I'd
pop for UPS shipping both ways to get my hands on that
alternator for non-invasive inspection on an alternator
test stand.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
Bob,
On your "24V Starter 14V System" schematic I note that the AUX BATT
(B2)incorporates an ANL 200 in the "fat wire" lead off the + side. My
assumption is that this limiter protects the rest of the starter circuit
should B2 suffer an internal short. The MAIN BATT (B1) incorporates an ANL
200 on the lead that connects K1 to K4. Should that also be between the B1
and K1 to protect the rest of the system?
If I follow this schematic properly, should B2 short inflight, the ANL 200
on the + lead will blow removing B2 from the system--I still have access to
B1. If B1 shorts, what protects the rest of the system?
Control power for AUX BAT and PUSH TO START switches comes from the Main
Bus. Where does control power for DC PWR MASTER switch originate? Does
this switch simply close the circuit coming down the right side of K1 to
ground, thereby closing the contactor? If so, how much current does this
switch have to handle?
Sorry for the ignorance; all this 'lectron stuff is completely new to me...
But I'm learing fast!
Thanks again for the help.
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Amps and volts for both Z-14 buses? |
Hi Paul
I have a Z-14 with a EIS monitor. At the moment the second battery
voltage is sensed by one of the auxilary inputs. The main battery powers
the EIS which I deem fine for my purposes with a Z14. I haven't
discussed this with Grand Rapids but generally one does not want voltage
on a solid state input unless the device (EIS) is powered. So my second
battery voltage is sensed after a switch that is always off with the
engine off and always on with the engine on except for abnormal
situations. I think I will change this so that whenever the EIS is
powered, a miniature reed relay closes which connects the aux battery
voltage sense wire to the EIS input. That eliminates any confusion about
what is happening in an abnormal situation. Since my unit can't handle
more than 5 volts input I have two resistors that make a voltage divider
such that the EIS input is fed 1/4 of the actual voltage.
Your monitor select switch should work but then you won't get an
over/undervoltage warning on the system that is not selected. If I used
such an approach with my system I would simply select which system
powered the monitor. The EIS simply monitors and displays the supply
voltage and that is sufficient for that approach on an EIS. I am not
familiar with your ACS-2002.
For current, some guys just run both current wires through the same hall
effect sensor and measure the total current flowing. Otherwise you would
normally need two current sensors and two monitor inputs to get both
currents. I elected to only monitor the current from the main
alternator. I think it is also reasonable to not measure the current
and only look at voltage.
Ken
pfsiegel wrote:
>
>For my Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus system I would like
>to keep track of the voltage and amps for EACH of the two separate and
>independent buses.
>
>I will use the ACS-2002 electronic engine monitoring system.
>
>What would be the best way to monitor the two systems?
>
>Should I have a "monitor select switch" that selects which bus the ACS
>is looking at?
>
>Or???
>
>I sure appreciate all the good input from this list!
>
>Paul Siegel
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup |
I know this is probably overkill just to keep an EFIS running during engine
cranking, but it's an interesting concept that is taking hold in the "Car
PC" world, and thus of interest to anybody putting computers in their
airplanes. If it's a PC, then this device will even decide that the low
voltage condition is going to be long-lasting and will punch the Power
button on your PC to start the hibernation process.
http://www.carnetix.com/CNXP1260.html
Dave Morris
At 05:46 PM 6/29/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>Guess everyone has their own design goals. You seem to be happy with
>yours. I want to keep an EFIS screen and an EIS screen on during start
>without upsetting the electrons. The EIS for monitoring the engine (oil
>psi,etc)during start, and the EFIS 'cause I don't want to turn it on for
>flight planning (etc) only to have to cycle the power off and back on
>for the engine start. I am simply trying to figure out the most
>effective way to do this.
>
>-bryan
>rv7a
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup
>
>
>May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you
>want
>to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting
>the
>engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to
>listen
>to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only
>electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn
>on
>the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on
>everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as
>my
>RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep
>the
>engine running.
>
>So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery
>and
>even got rid of the SD8.
>
>I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex
>electrical
>systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only
>feeds
>or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile.
>Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS
>angels are finally getting through.
>
>Michele Delsol
>RV8 - Fuselage
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> > aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup
> >
> >
> >
> > Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really
> > a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate
> > battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems
> > the reasonable thing."
> >
> > I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With
>a
> > GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe
> > that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I
>know
> > we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set
> > forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does
>-
> > but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during
> > engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$).
> >
> > So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the
>dual
> > alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff.
> > I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a
> > couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators
> > during flight.
> >
> > Bryan Hooks
> > RV-7A, slowbuild
> > Finish kit came today
> > Knoxville, TN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Walter Klatt <wklatt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
Does anyone have one of these collecting dust
somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp, 0.5
mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but
apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one on
my plane connected inline to my alternator output,
and worked fine for several years. However, it then
vibrated apart, and I replaced it with several others,
but none are able to do the job like that old Radio
Shack one. So, if anyone has one, and is willing to
part with it, or can tell me where I could find one,
please let me know. Thanks.
Walter
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
>
>Bob,
>
>On your "24V Starter 14V System" schematic I note that the AUX BATT
>(B2)incorporates an ANL 200 in the "fat wire" lead off the + side. My
>assumption is that this limiter protects the rest of the starter circuit
>should B2 suffer an internal short. The MAIN BATT (B1) incorporates an ANL
>200 on the lead that connects K1 to K4. Should that also be between the B1
>and K1 to protect the rest of the system?
>
>If I follow this schematic properly, should B2 short inflight, the ANL 200
>on the + lead will blow removing B2 from the system--I still have access to
>B1. If B1 shorts, what protects the rest of the system?
The limiters are there ONLY to protect the system in
case one of the contactors sticks or some wiring anomaly
causes more than two contactors to be closed at one time.
This has the potential for placing BIG loads on one of
the batteries.
>Control power for AUX BAT and PUSH TO START switches comes from the Main
>Bus.
Yes, from the START circuit fuse/breaker . . .
>Where does control power for DC PWR MASTER switch originate? Does
>this switch simply close the circuit coming down the right side of K1 to
>ground, thereby closing the contactor?
You got it. K1 is a conventional ground to operate battery
contactor like those illustrated in all of the z-figures.
The K2/5, K3/4 pairs are operated as pull up to +12 so that
they can share the STARTER fuse and be assured exclusive
operation by the position of S1.
> If so, how much current does this
>switch have to handle?
Less than 1A
>Sorry for the ignorance; all this 'lectron stuff is completely new to me...
>But I'm learing fast!
That's what we're here for . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
OOPS . . . I forgot to mention that this drawing is up to Rev -C-
to fix some minor errors and clarify notations. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf
>
>Bob,
>
>On your "24V Starter 14V System" schematic I note that the AUX BATT
>(B2)incorporates an ANL 200 in the "fat wire" lead off the + side. My
>assumption is that this limiter protects the rest of the starter circuit
>should B2 suffer an internal short. The MAIN BATT (B1) incorporates an ANL
>200 on the lead that connects K1 to K4. Should that also be between the B1
>and K1 to protect the rest of the system?
>
>If I follow this schematic properly, should B2 short inflight, the ANL 200
>on the + lead will blow removing B2 from the system--I still have access to
>B1. If B1 shorts, what protects the rest of the system?
The limiters are there ONLY to protect the system in
case one of the contactors sticks or some wiring anomaly
causes more than two contactors to be closed at one time.
This has the potential for placing BIG loads on one of
the batteries.
>Control power for AUX BAT and PUSH TO START switches comes from the Main
>Bus.
Yes, from the START circuit fuse/breaker . . .
>Where does control power for DC PWR MASTER switch originate? Does
>this switch simply close the circuit coming down the right side of K1 to
>ground, thereby closing the contactor?
You got it. K1 is a conventional ground to operate battery
contactor like those illustrated in all of the z-figures.
The K2/5, K3/4 pairs are operated as pull up to +12 so that
they can share the STARTER fuse and be assured exclusive
operation by the position of S1.
> If so, how much current does this
>switch have to handle?
Less than 1A
>Sorry for the ignorance; all this 'lectron stuff is completely new to me...
>But I'm learing fast!
That's what we're here for . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
>
>Does anyone have one of these collecting dust
>somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp, 0.5
>mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but
>apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one on
>my plane connected inline to my alternator output,
>and worked fine for several years. However, it then
>vibrated apart, and I replaced it with several others,
>but none are able to do the job like that old Radio
>Shack one. So, if anyone has one, and is willing to
>part with it, or can tell me where I could find one,
>please let me know. Thanks.
Is that the cylindrical capacitor with threaded
male studs on each end and a grounding/mounting
bracket in the middle?
As I recall, the R-S part had a slip-fit bracket
that didn't hold well. A GOOD connection to the
capacitor case was critical to the filter's
operation.
Sprague Electronics "Hypass" series devices
are one example of this genre' of filter. One
version is currently offered on Ebay at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7275&item=2249061066
. . . but is too small for your spplication.
Surplus sales has a few:
https://www.surplussales.com/Feedthrus/FTflangeMt.html
again too small.
Having said that, I can also offer that filters
on the back of an alternator are generally useful
only for reducing RF interference to low frequency
nav radios like ADF and Loran. Was this filter
added to address a problem with one of these radios?
The seldom provide useful attenuation of audible
alternator whine in audio systems.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom..." <tsled(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | MicroAir T2000 Transponder & ALT-4 .... |
Hi,
I bought a MicroAir T2000 SFL Transponder and a Stratomaster Maxi Single
ALT-4, I finally got around to installing them. I made a cable according to
the wiring diagram in the manual that shows these two connected. I installed
them into my home built helicopter and when I power them up they both seem
to go thru their start up test just fine. But when I go to "Alt Display" on
the Transponder it says "NO ALTITUDE". I have removed the unites from my
helicopter, buzzed the cable and it is correct. Yes I have the GNDs
connected. I have it hooked up on a bench and it says the same thing. When I
disconnect the encoder cable the Transponder continues to say the same thing
"NO ALT". The Altimeter "seems" to indicate the correct altitude, the VSI
portion "seems" to work. I sent the ALT-4 back and they say it checked out
fine but just to be 100+% sure they sent me a new unit. Same exact thing. I
am 99.999% sure that the cable is done according to the manual, I even had a
friend buzz it too.
Have ya heard of this before? Do ya have any ideas?
Thanks for your time,
Tom...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Walter Klatt <wklatt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
Yes, that's the one, and you're right, the clamping
bracket had to be replaced for proper ground and solid
attachment. This filter is the only one that I have
found that solved a transmit noise problem on my Terra
760D. With this filter on the alternator it is clear
for 100 miles or more, but without the controllers
have trouble hearing me from 6 miles out. Never did
have a problem with reception which was always good.
Thanks for the tips, and I will check out the links,
but still would like to get my hands on this original
one, as I know it does work.
Walter
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
> Nuckolls, III"
>
>
> Klatt
> >
> >Does anyone have one of these collecting dust
> >somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp,
> 0.5
> >mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but
> >apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one
> on
> >my plane connected inline to my alternator output,
> >and worked fine for several years. However, it then
> >vibrated apart, and I replaced it with several
> others,
> >but none are able to do the job like that old Radio
> >Shack one. So, if anyone has one, and is willing to
> >part with it, or can tell me where I could find
> one,
> >please let me know. Thanks.
>
> Is that the cylindrical capacitor with threaded
> male studs on each end and a grounding/mounting
> bracket in the middle?
>
> As I recall, the R-S part had a slip-fit bracket
> that didn't hold well. A GOOD connection to the
> capacitor case was critical to the filter's
> operation.
>
> Sprague Electronics "Hypass" series devices
> are one example of this genre' of filter. One
> version is currently offered on Ebay at:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7275&item=2249061066
>
> . . . but is too small for your spplication.
>
> Surplus sales has a few:
>
>
https://www.surplussales.com/Feedthrus/FTflangeMt.html
>
> again too small.
>
> Having said that, I can also offer that filters
> on the back of an alternator are generally useful
> only for reducing RF interference to low
> frequency
> nav radios like ADF and Loran. Was this filter
> added to address a problem with one of these
> radios?
>
> The seldom provide useful attenuation of audible
> alternator whine in audio systems.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MicroAir T2000 Transponder & ALT-4 .... |
Tom,
I just installed the Microair xponder and Ameriking encoder in a RV-8.
How long did you leave the alt encoder on? Most require at least 10 minutes to
warm up. Prior to warm up the xponder will display "no altitude".
Chris Stone
RV-8 x2
Newberg, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: "Tom..." <tsled(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MicroAir T2000 Transponder & ALT-4 ....
Hi,
I bought a MicroAir T2000 SFL Transponder and a Stratomaster Maxi Single
ALT-4, I finally got around to installing them. I made a cable according to
the wiring diagram in the manual that shows these two connected. I installed
them into my home built helicopter and when I power them up they both seem
to go thru their start up test just fine. But when I go to "Alt Display" on
the Transponder it says "NO ALTITUDE". I have removed the unites from my
helicopter, buzzed the cable and it is correct. Yes I have the GNDs
connected. I have it hooked up on a bench and it says the same thing. When I
disconnect the encoder cable the Transponder continues to say the same thing
"NO ALT". The Altimeter "seems" to indicate the correct altitude, the VSI
portion "seems" to work. I sent the ALT-4 back and they say it checked out
fine but just to be 100+% sure they sent me a new unit. Same exact thing. I
am 99.999% sure that the cable is done according to the manual, I even had a
friend buzz it too.
Have ya heard of this before? Do ya have any ideas?
Thanks for your time,
Tom...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom..." <tsled(at)pacbell.net> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam(at)matronics.com>) |
| Subject: | MicroAir T2000 Transponder & ALT-4 .... |
Hi,
I bought a MicroAir T2000 SFL Transponder and a Stratomaster Maxi Single
ALT-4, I finally got around to installing them. I made a cable according to
the wiring diagram in the manual that shows these two connected. I
installed them into my home built helicopter and when I power them up they
both seem to go thru their start up test just fine. But when I go to "Alt
Display" on the Transponder it says "NO ALTITUDE". I have removed the
unites from my helicopter, buzzed the cable and it is correct. Yes I have
the GNDs connected. I have it hooked up on a bench and it says the same
thing. When I disconnect the encoder cable the Transponder continues to say
the same thing "NO ALT". The Altimeter "seems" to indicate the correct
altitude, the VSI portion "seems" to work. I sent the ALT-4 back and they
say it checked out fine but just to be 100+% sure they sent me a new unit.
Same exact thing. I am 99.999% sure that the cable is done according to the
manual, I even had a friend buzz it too.
Have ya heard of this before? Do ya have any ideas?
Thanks for your time,
Tom...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
Walter Klatt wrote:
>
> Does anyone have one of these collecting dust
> somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp, 0.5
> mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but
> apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one on
Hi Walter,
If you don't find a replacement, perhaps you
could put some of their smaller ones in parallel.
The 10amp ones are still available, I think:
<http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=270-051&Name=Manuals%20for%20270-051&Reuse=N>
and I believe they have a 20 amp version of this as well.
Hope this helps,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
Bob,
You said:
> OOPS . . . I forgot to mention that this drawing is up to Rev -C-
> to fix some minor errors and clarify notations. See:
Actually, you already had mentioned this a couple of days ago--thanks.
Another question (you notice I didn't say "last"):
When I switch S1 to the START position, K2 & K5 should open, essentially
isolating B2 from the main power bus. When S2 is closed, K4 closes
connecting B1-POS to B2-NEG, & also closes K3 applying 24V to the starter &
on to ground (completing the series circuit). If I read this correctly, 24V
is also available on the output side of K2, but since K2 is open, that's as
far as the electrons go. If K2 fails closed, then 24V is also applied to
the main bus when S2 is closed; that's bad right? If this is correct, do
you think an indicator displaying K2's status is appropriate?
My thinking is thus: When I switch S1 to start, I'd like to see a light
indicating K2 open before I close S2 (press the start switch). Is my worry
bucket too full?
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Start & Battery Circuits on Rotax 582 |
6/30/2005
Hello Bob Harlan, Bob Nuckolls is the great guru of all things electrical
when it comes to amateur built aircraft (and many other things electrical as
well). He has a magnificent book available entitled "The AeroElectric
Connection" and a web site with much great electrical information.
In addition he acts as a frequent (and free) contributing consultant to an
internet list called the "aeroelectric-list" which is provided by Matt
Dralle under the name of Matronics. Many very electrically knowledgeable
people and people seeking electrical knowledge like yourself participate on
the aeroelectric-list.
I suggest that you check out Bob Nuckolls' web site
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html> and pose your question to the
aeroelectric-list.<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?AeroElectric-List>
OC
----- Original Message -----
From: <BOBBY2022(at)cs.com>
Subject: Start & Battery Circuits on Rotax 582
> Dear Group
> My question is, where do I tap into the system to pull off DC power for my
> fuel pump and perhaps a GPS and Radio.
>
> Although I am not a Pulsar builder, I am on your list because the wing
> construction on my original design aircraft was similar to the Pulsar
> along with my
> engine and my friend Barry West led me to youall. (I, also, am from
> Arkansas).
> I am at the stage where I am just checking out my wiring circuits berfore
> actually testing the starter. I , of course, believe I have the wiring
> installed
> correctly. The prop is not mounted and no fluids are in the engine yet
> (oil
> or coolant). I know NOT to try without a load and proper lubricants in
> place.
>
> I have left the wire from the start switch dis-connected from the starter
> solenoid so as not to activate the starter. However, I only get power to
> my
> accessory switches when they are connected to the starter lug on the
> starter
> switch and holding the starter switch in the spring loaded START position.
> I just
> want to check my starter circuit and battery buss connections to determine
> if
> they are correct.
>
> Question 1: Does the starter solenoid have to be energized to be able to
> get
> power back to the battery?
> Question 2: Can you suggest another way to check my circuits?
>
> You guys are an invaluable resource. I hope you 582 users can help.
> Very Sincerely,
> Bob Harlan.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
>
>
>Walter Klatt wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have one of these collecting dust
> > somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp, 0.5
> > mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but
> > apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one on
>
>
>Hi Walter,
> If you don't find a replacement, perhaps you
>could put some of their smaller ones in parallel.
>The 10amp ones are still available, I think:
><http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=270-051&Name=Manuals%20for%20270-051&Reuse=N>
>and I believe they have a 20 amp version of this as well.
These filters as a class had almost zero
series inductance. In fact, all the devices
I opened up had solid rods that carried through
the center of the capacitor . . .
The "magic" these devices have to offer is
their very low Effective Series Resistance
at high frequencies. One can achieve equal
or better performance with modern devices like
monolythic ceramic capacitors. I built an array
of these capacitors up on a scrap of etched circuit
board using the fiberglas as structural member
and copper foil as a low inductance connection.
This was used effectively on a motor but should
do as well on an alternator. You can fabricate
it with holes spaced so that the copper-clad
drops over the b-lead and has a second hole
to pick up the same screw you used to mount the
original filter.
If you can't find a suitable direct replacement,
there ARE alternatives.
On another note, I'm surprised that you had this
kind of noise problem in transmit . . . noise
from alternators is much more likely to upset
receivers and/or audio systems. I'm wondering
if your diode stack isn't damaged or perhaps
sub-standard. No way to find out without some
pretty good lab equipment. Let's see if we can
get your capacitor issue resolved first.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
Bob, et. al,
I seem to remember this problem mentioned previously, but cannot find it
in the archives.
The Situation: My electric elevator trim system is a Ray Allen T2-10A
servo, two stick mounted Ray Allen trim switches, a REL-1 Servo Relay
Deck, and a RP3 LED type position indicator. By itself the system works
perfectly - the trim runs up and down and indicates correctly. I also
have a RP3 LED indicator for the flaps, but its position sensor is not
yet hooked up. Consequently, the flaps go up and down, but the indicator
indicates full down at all times. Both indicators are wired into my
panel lights reostat and both dim appropriately when the reostat is
moved from the OFF position.
I also have an Apollo SL-60 GPS/Comm and an Apollo MS-10 intercom with
PTT buttons on each stick grip. The system transmits and receives like a
champ using either PTT button. The TRANSMIT light on the intercom
illuminates when transmitting as it should.
THE PROBLEM: When pushing either PTT button, both the trim and flap
indicators dim and the trim indicator instantly shows full down trim
(the actual trim does not move.) Releasing the PTT button causes both
indicators to return to normal.
Other than the power bus and the common ground point, I can find no area
where the two systems meet, cross, or interconnect. I assume the problem
is caused by RF interference but I am clueless as to how to find, much
less correct, the problem.
Any help would be appreciated.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Walter Klatt <wklatt(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
My problem is definitely unique, which is why I am
being very specific about what I need. I determined
this from day 1, and this particular capacitor noise
filter is the only thing that I found to work. And
again, no problem with reception, strictly noise on
the transmit. I tried several other filters including
expensive aircraft type ones, but they don't do the
job like this one. I don't understand it, but all I
know is what works and what doesn't.
Walter
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
> Nuckolls, III"
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >Walter Klatt wrote:
> Klatt
> > >
> > > Does anyone have one of these collecting dust
> > > somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40
> amp, 0.5
> > > mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but
> > > apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had
> one on
> >
> >
> >Hi Walter,
> > If you don't find a replacement, perhaps
> you
> >could put some of their smaller ones in parallel.
> >The 10amp ones are still available, I think:
>
><http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=270-051&Name=Manuals%20for%20270-051&Reuse=N>
> >and I believe they have a 20 amp version of this as
> well.
>
>
> These filters as a class had almost zero
> series inductance. In fact, all the devices
> I opened up had solid rods that carried through
> the center of the capacitor . . .
>
> The "magic" these devices have to offer is
> their very low Effective Series Resistance
> at high frequencies. One can achieve equal
> or better performance with modern devices like
> monolythic ceramic capacitors. I built an array
> of these capacitors up on a scrap of etched
> circuit
> board using the fiberglas as structural member
> and copper foil as a low inductance connection.
> This was used effectively on a motor but should
> do as well on an alternator. You can fabricate
> it with holes spaced so that the copper-clad
> drops over the b-lead and has a second hole
> to pick up the same screw you used to mount the
> original filter.
>
> If you can't find a suitable direct replacement,
> there ARE alternatives.
>
> On another note, I'm surprised that you had this
> kind of noise problem in transmit . . . noise
> from alternators is much more likely to upset
> receivers and/or audio systems. I'm wondering
> if your diode stack isn't damaged or perhaps
> sub-standard. No way to find out without some
> pretty good lab equipment. Let's see if we can
> get your capacitor issue resolved first.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
I know its a pain, but I wired my G5 stick with separate grounds for
the PPT, Trims (relay decks & LEDs), and Auto Pilot. It works!!
Richard Reynolds
Norfolk, VA RV-6A
On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Charlie Brame wrote:
>
>
> Bob, et. al,
>
> I seem to remember this problem mentioned previously, but cannot
> find it
> in the archives.
>
> The Situation: My electric elevator trim system is a Ray Allen T2-10A
> servo, two stick mounted Ray Allen trim switches, a REL-1 Servo Relay
> Deck, and a RP3 LED type position indicator. By itself the system
> works
> perfectly - the trim runs up and down and indicates correctly. I also
> have a RP3 LED indicator for the flaps, but its position sensor is not
> yet hooked up. Consequently, the flaps go up and down, but the
> indicator
> indicates full down at all times. Both indicators are wired into my
> panel lights reostat and both dim appropriately when the reostat is
> moved from the OFF position.
>
> I also have an Apollo SL-60 GPS/Comm and an Apollo MS-10 intercom with
> PTT buttons on each stick grip. The system transmits and receives
> like a
> champ using either PTT button. The TRANSMIT light on the intercom
> illuminates when transmitting as it should.
>
> THE PROBLEM: When pushing either PTT button, both the trim and flap
> indicators dim and the trim indicator instantly shows full down trim
> (the actual trim does not move.) Releasing the PTT button causes both
> indicators to return to normal.
>
> Other than the power bus and the common ground point, I can find no
> area
> where the two systems meet, cross, or interconnect. I assume the
> problem
> is caused by RF interference but I am clueless as to how to find, much
> less correct, the problem.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AK-450 ELT Antenna and connection |
>
>
>Reading on the install manual for AK-450 ELT, the antenna requires at
>least a 36 inch
>ground plane.
>Any ideas how I can install a ELT antenna on the inside of Europa XS
>Monowheel?
Use an internal dipole antenna glued to inside surface of fuselage
behind seats. Foil antennas are okay. Suggest you get an antenna
analyzer to trim the installed antenna for optimum SWR at 121.5
>Second question is about the remote panel. It uses a telephone jack, that
>i understand
>can be troublesome. Is it worth it at install time to get rid of the
>telephone jack
>and hardwire to remote, and install a nice removable connector at the unit?
Don't know why these should be troublesome. I'd encourage you to
get the right tool for stripping the wire and installing the connector
on the wire. Radio Shack has one for about $15.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Suggest you join AeroElectric
list for such questions. More folks will be available to answer and
I'm less likely to push it off in a corner.
Bob .. .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Navigation Antenna Questions |
>
>Bob,
> Figure 13-12 on page 13-16 of the Aeroelectric Connection book shows a
> drawing for making your own Navigation antenna. One section of this
> antenna calls for a 90 degree bend in that section of 0.025" aluminum.
> The section's length is called out as "convenient L", which I construe to
> mean a convenient length. The width is called out as aluminum sheet angle
> 0.5" X 1.5". I construe this to mean that the aluminum should be 1.5"
> wide on it's horizontal surface and 0.5" on it's vertical (bent) surface.
> Are my assumptions correct? Are there any recommended minimum or maximum
> lengths for this section of angle? Is the 90 degree bend in this section
> to achieve rigidity? Or, is this section of the antenna to be fastened to
> the outboard wing rib? Please advise.
Your assumptions are correct. This section can be any length because
it's grounded to the tip rib. The opposite element needs to be optimized
with an antenna analyzer if possible.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
>
>Bob,
>
>You said:
>
> > OOPS . . . I forgot to mention that this drawing is up to Rev -C-
> > to fix some minor errors and clarify notations. See:
>
>Actually, you already had mentioned this a couple of days ago--thanks.
>
>Another question (you notice I didn't say "last"):
>
>When I switch S1 to the START position, K2 & K5 should open, essentially
>isolating B2 from the main power bus. When S2 is closed, K4 closes
>connecting B1-POS to B2-NEG, & also closes K3 applying 24V to the starter &
>on to ground (completing the series circuit). If I read this correctly, 24V
>is also available on the output side of K2, but since K2 is open, that's as
>far as the electrons go. If K2 fails closed, then 24V is also applied to
>the main bus when S2 is closed; that's bad right? If this is correct, do
>you think an indicator displaying K2's status is appropriate?
>
>My thinking is thus: When I switch S1 to start, I'd like to see a light
>indicating K2 open before I close S2 (press the start switch). Is my worry
>bucket too full?
I'd considered that. Contactors that do the most 'sticking'
are starter contactors . . . battery contactors are likely to
go high resistance but only then if used to SWITCH heavy loads.
Battery contactors are generally opened and closed with very
benign loads. Should K2 be shut for any reason, attempting a start
would put a dead short on B2 (assuming the battery contactor
K1 was closed too).
I think the risks are low but there's a little fault detection
scheme I've used many times that has been added to the drawing
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf
A hand full of resistors and a couple of LEDS (need two in order
to sense both stuck-hi and stuck-lo faults) will bias up the
aux battery and 4 contactors to 1/2 of battery voltage. When
you place S1 to START and before pressing S2, both LEDs should
be dark. If ANY contactor is stuck, you'll get a warning light
before S2 is depressed. Of course, the "stuck-lo" light
will illuminate while you are cranking but will go out
when the switch is released.
Placing S1 back in NORMAL will remove power from the votlage
divider and close K5 which will keep the lights dark during
normal operations. R4 needs to be right at the connection to
K4 . . . or you can eliminate R4 entirely and replace with
a 1-3 amp in-line fuse.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
>My thinking is thus: When I switch S1 to start, I'd like to see a light
>indicating K2 open before I close S2 (press the start switch). Is my worry
>bucket too full?
P.S. I took out one of the current limiters. I couldn't see
a fault mode that would blow only the limiter in series
with B2.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
wrote:
> Both indicators are wired into my panel lights reostat and both dim
> appropriately when the reostat is
> moved from the OFF position.
Charlie -
We have the same problem with our flap, yaw & pitch trim indicators. They
dim and go full to one side or the other when we transmit.
So far, we do not seem to have any spurious input to the trim motors
themselves.
One thing that you may be doing wrong is that you have the indicators
being dimmed by a dimmer. I believe the Ray Allen installation diagrams
show a direct connection from a light switch to the trim indicators, such
that it takes 12 volts directly to dim the circuits. There is also only
one dim position. I thought this was a real stupid way to have dimming on
the indicators (they really need dimming), so I called Ray Allen. They
said that you should not connect their indicators to a dimmer.
Having said this, I still think they have a dumb system, so please check
with them to verify again what they told me. Let me know what they say.
I would also be interested in what they recommend to keep the radio from
causing the lights to dim and move.
Cheers,
John
> THE PROBLEM: When pushing either PTT button, both the trim and flap
> indicators dim and the trim indicator instantly shows full > down
> trim (the actual trim does not move.) Releasing the PTT button causes
> both indicators to return to normal. Other than the > power bus and
> the common ground point, I can find no area where the two systems meet,
> cross, or interconnect. I assume the > problem is caused by RF
> interference but I am clueless as to how to find, much less correct, the
> problem.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Richard -
So did we. And we still have the problem.
John
wrote:
>
>
> I know its a pain, but I wired my G5 stick with separate grounds for
> the PPT, Trims (relay decks & LEDs), and Auto Pilot. It works!!
>
> Richard Reynolds
> Norfolk, VA RV-6A
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
I believe the Europa guys 'solved' this problem a few months ago. You
might look at their archive to see if you can scare up any helpful info.
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | alternator testing |
Jack Eckdahl was wrestling with an alternator problem earlier
this week and I published some testing ideas. I'd forgotten
about a document I published some time ago and was already
posted. Jack, see:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/Alternator_Test.pdf
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Out of town . . . |
Headed to Denver for a BIG family reunion. Don't know if
my motel is wi-fi'ed or not. Might be able to check in but
it's possible that I'm off line until Monday.
See ya!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 |
Walter
If you find one, that's fine, but I suggest that you can get one that works
even better. These particular filters were often used to filter line noise
in automobiles, and they appealed to the big boom-box installers, so maybe
Tandy's vendor even improved on them.
You can call these guys---they might set you up with their own version:
http://www.jmkfilters.com/catalog/auto.htm
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones(at)charter.net
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing |
Bob,
You said:
> A hand full of resistors and a couple of LEDS (need two in order
> to sense both stuck-hi and stuck-lo faults) will bias up the
> aux battery and 4 contactors to 1/2 of battery voltage. When
Are these 12V LEDs? Some LEDs advertised as "indicators" are sold with a
panel mount housing and billed as "12V."
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Chicago%20Miniature/Web%20Data/5110F%20Serie
s.pdf
These come with a current limiting resistor included. Can I use these
indicators?
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Cross <bcross2160(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Voltage stability |
Hi Folks
I have a problem on my aircraft which I have had from day one since I got
it flying over 5 years ago. It uses Bob N's circuit diagram to a T. I
cannot remember which Z diagram it is but it is a basic system with 2 mags,
E bus with the diode etc. I use the LR3B voltage regulator & B & C 40 amp
alternator. The system has never let me down. I have a friend who helped
me wire the system who has his masters in Elect. Eng. & a very bright guy.
The problem is that I have low voltage in the system. As I had load to the
system, the voltage as shown by the EI gauges drops. For example, if I
turn on the taxi light, it drops 0.1-0.2 volts. Every time I add a load,
it drops by this amount. It is quite easy to get it down to 12.8-12.9
volts depending upon how much load I had. When I take the load off, the
voltage climbs right back to 13.9 volts or so. Yes I have verified the
voltage with other external devices, & my Garmin handheld indicates exactly
the same voltage as the EI unit.
I have followed the LR3B trouble shooting guide & found no problems. I
have contacted B&C over the phone & at Oshkosh. They are very nice folks
but have been unable to help me. (I am not saying at all that it is their
problem, I just cannot figure it out). I have tightened the belt, changed
the alt. belt etc. etc. to no avail. I just swapped out the LR3B last
night to a brand new LR3C with high hopes. The system performs exactly as
before.
Perplexed! Greatly appreciate any help.
Brian
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Denis Walsh <denis.walsh(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage stability |
That's what I thought it was supposed to do.
Eagerly awaiting knowledgeable answers.
Denis Walsh
On Jul 1, 2005, at 7:53 AM, Brian Cross wrote:
>
>
> Hi Folks
>
> I have a problem on my aircraft which I have had from day one since
> I got
> it flying over 5 years ago. It uses Bob N's circuit diagram to a
> T. I
> cannot remember which Z diagram it is but it is a basic system with
> 2 mags,
> E bus with the diode etc. I use the LR3B voltage regulator & B &
> C 40 amp
> alternator. The system has never let me down. I have a friend who
> helped
> me wire the system who has his masters in Elect. Eng. & a very
> bright guy.
>
> The problem is that I have low voltage in the system. As I had
> load to the
> system, the voltage as shown by the EI gauges drops. For example,
> if I
> turn on the taxi light, it drops 0.1-0.2 volts. Every time I add a
> load,
> it drops by this amount. It is quite easy to get it down to 12.8-12.9
> volts depending upon how much load I had. When I take the load
> off, the
> voltage climbs right back to 13.9 volts or so. Yes I have verified
> the
> voltage with other external devices, & my Garmin handheld indicates
> exactly
> the same voltage as the EI unit.
>
> I have followed the LR3B trouble shooting guide & found no
> problems. I
> have contacted B&C over the phone & at Oshkosh. They are very nice
> folks
> but have been unable to help me. (I am not saying at all that it
> is their
> problem, I just cannot figure it out). I have tightened the belt,
> changed
> the alt. belt etc. etc. to no avail. I just swapped out the LR3B last
> night to a brand new LR3C with high hopes. The system performs
> exactly as
> before.
>
> Perplexed! Greatly appreciate any help.
>
> Brian
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage stability |
On 1 Jul 2005, at 09:53, Brian Cross wrote:
>
>
> Hi Folks
>
> I have a problem on my aircraft which I have had from day one since
> I got
> it flying over 5 years ago. It uses Bob N's circuit diagram to a
> T. I
> cannot remember which Z diagram it is but it is a basic system with
> 2 mags,
> E bus with the diode etc. I use the LR3B voltage regulator & B &
> C 40 amp
> alternator. The system has never let me down. I have a friend who
> helped
> me wire the system who has his masters in Elect. Eng. & a very
> bright guy.
>
> The problem is that I have low voltage in the system. As I had
> load to the
> system, the voltage as shown by the EI gauges drops. For example,
> if I
> turn on the taxi light, it drops 0.1-0.2 volts. Every time I add a
> load,
> it drops by this amount. It is quite easy to get it down to 12.8-12.9
> volts depending upon how much load I had. When I take the load
> off, the
> voltage climbs right back to 13.9 volts or so. Yes I have verified
> the
> voltage with other external devices, & my Garmin handheld indicates
> exactly
> the same voltage as the EI unit.
>
> I have followed the LR3B trouble shooting guide & found no
> problems. I
> have contacted B&C over the phone & at Oshkosh. They are very nice
> folks
> but have been unable to help me. (I am not saying at all that it
> is their
> problem, I just cannot figure it out). I have tightened the belt,
> changed
> the alt. belt etc. etc. to no avail. I just swapped out the LR3B last
> night to a brand new LR3C with high hopes. The system performs
> exactly as
> before.
>
Brian,
Where does the EI gauge read its voltage? Main Bus, E-Bus, or
somewhere else?
Where does the voltage regulator get its voltage signal? Main Bus, E-
Bus, or somewhere else?
If the voltage regulator is sensing voltage from a different location
than the EI gauge is reading, what happens if you temporarily wire up
a voltmeter to read voltage from the same place that the voltage
regulator is hooked to? What happens to the voltage at this location
as you add load?
Where is the EI gauge grounded?
Where is the voltage regulator grounded?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem From: "John |
Schroeder"
John,
Thanks for the reply.
I wasn't specific in my original post, but my trim and flap indicator
dimmer circuit is connected between a "master dimmer switch" and the
reostat, exactly as recommended by Ray Allen.
I talked to Ray Allen who confirmed it is a Radio Frequency problem and
fairly common. He seemed to think my indicators reacted more than most.
He had no suggestions other than to make sure the radio antenna lead was
separated from the trim cable as far as possible. He also suggested the
problem should lessen once the airplane was in the air or if the
airplane was outside the hangar/garage and well away from metal
buildings or other reflective surfaces. I'll test that option in a few
days.
My trim cable is a Ray Allen cable which is not shielded. Ray Allen
conceded that a shielded cable might help.
I'm still looking for a better answer.
Charlie
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem
> From: "John Schroeder"
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Both indicators are wired into my panel lights reostat and both dim
> > appropriately when the reostat is
> > moved from the OFF position.
>
> Charlie -
>
> We have the same problem with our flap, yaw & pitch trim indicators. They
> dim and go full to one side or the other when we transmit.
> So far, we do not seem to have any spurious input to the trim motors
> themselves.
>
> One thing that you may be doing wrong is that you have the indicators
> being dimmed by a dimmer. I believe the Ray Allen installation diagrams
> show a direct connection from a light switch to the trim indicators, such
> that it takes 12 volts directly to dim the circuits. There is also only
> one dim position. I thought this was a real stupid way to have dimming on
> the indicators (they really need dimming), so I called Ray Allen. They
> said that you should not connect their indicators to a dimmer.
>
> Having said this, I still think they have a dumb system, so please check
> with them to verify again what they told me. Let me know what they say.
>
> I would also be interested in what they recommend to keep the radio from
> causing the lights to dim and move.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
>
> > THE PROBLEM: When pushing either PTT button, both the trim and flap
> > indicators dim and the trim indicator instantly shows full > down
> > trim (the actual trim does not move.) Releasing the PTT button causes
> > both indicators to return to normal. Other than the > power bus and
> > the common ground point, I can find no area where the two systems meet,
> > cross, or interconnect. I assume the > problem is caused by RF
> > interference but I am clueless as to how to find, much less correct, the
> > problem.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | lockwashers on Odyssey battery terminals? |
| From: | czechsix(at)juno.com |
Ok, ignorant question....does anybody see a need to add a lockwasher to
the battery terminal bolts? My PC-680 battery just came with a plain
washer for each bolt, but no lockwasher. Seems like everything else on
an airplane uses some sort of lockwasher, cotter pin, or self locking
nut, so I'm wondering if this is an exception? No point in adding it if
it ain't needed though....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D....light's getting brighter at the end of the tunnel....moving
to the airport in two weeks....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)rconnect.com> |
| Subject: | Radio Shack RG-58 coax for antenna leads |
Hi guys,
I'm installing a Garmin GTX-320A in my RV-9A.
Is the standard Radio Shack RG-58 coax suitable
for use between transponder and the antenna?
The length would be between 8 and 10 feet.
Thanks.
Joe Connell
SE Minnesota
RV-9A N95JJ wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack RG-58 coax for antenna leads |
First, I am NOT an avionics expert; just installed all my stuff including
dual NAV/COMs, gns430 and PMA7000, etc.
However that said, Radio Shack stuff ALMOST got me. Some of their
connectors, etc is 75 omh impediance, such as connectors. I donot know about
the coax. BUT, why not simply buy from ACS?? What is another few $$$ in
comparison of days of trouble shooting or constant annouying radio/GPS
gremlins?? At least that's was my philosophy in my wiring.
As an aside, I am currently doing a rewiring along with changing over from a
Navaid Device to a EzPilot and decided to re-do all my avionics wiring
using Fast Stack. I have a annouying alternator whine at idle RPM in only #1
comm so decided to spend more $$$ in hopes of chasing out that gremlin.
I learned about the Fast Stack AFTER spending two months doing the major
avionics upgrade adding the GNS430.
WOOO, long answer, but sometimes a casual remark by others can save lots of
headaches. Hope I didn't bore you.
BTW, I have a NAVAID Device head for sale REAL cheap.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)rconnect.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Shack RG-58 coax for antenna leads
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm installing a Garmin GTX-320A in my RV-9A.
> Is the standard Radio Shack RG-58 coax suitable
> for use between transponder and the antenna?
> The length would be between 8 and 10 feet.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joe Connell
> SE Minnesota
> RV-9A N95JJ wiring
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage stability |
Hi Brian
Interesting problem but off the top I am suspicious of two possibilities.
1. the alternator is defective and can not maintain sufficent current to
power your loads
2. there is high resistance between the alternator and your loads. ie
the alternator is fine and maintaining proper output voltage but your
bus (and possibly battery) is not getting enough current. Knowing the
high quality of your work, my first suspicion would be a faulty battery
contactor that is high resistance or a high resistance circuit breaker
in the alternator output line. I'd look at the C/B or fuse first.
Obviously a grossly undersized B lead (alternator wire) could also cause
this depending on exactly how it is wired.
Ken
Brian Cross wrote:
>
>Hi Folks
>
>I have a problem on my aircraft which I have had from day one since I got
>it flying over 5 years ago. It uses Bob N's circuit diagram to a T. I
>cannot remember which Z diagram it is but it is a basic system with 2 mags,
>E bus with the diode etc. I use the LR3B voltage regulator & B & C 40 amp
>alternator. The system has never let me down. I have a friend who helped
>me wire the system who has his masters in Elect. Eng. & a very bright guy.
>
>The problem is that I have low voltage in the system. As I had load to the
>system, the voltage as shown by the EI gauges drops. For example, if I
>turn on the taxi light, it drops 0.1-0.2 volts. Every time I add a load,
>it drops by this amount. It is quite easy to get it down to 12.8-12.9
>volts depending upon how much load I had. When I take the load off, the
>voltage climbs right back to 13.9 volts or so. Yes I have verified the
>voltage with other external devices, & my Garmin handheld indicates exactly
>the same voltage as the EI unit.
>
>I have followed the LR3B trouble shooting guide & found no problems. I
>have contacted B&C over the phone & at Oshkosh. They are very nice folks
>but have been unable to help me. (I am not saying at all that it is their
>problem, I just cannot figure it out). I have tightened the belt, changed
>the alt. belt etc. etc. to no avail. I just swapped out the LR3B last
>night to a brand new LR3C with high hopes. The system performs exactly as
>before.
>
>Perplexed! Greatly appreciate any help.
>
>Brian
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio Shack RG-58 coax for antenna leads |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Joe -
I would recommend using RG-400, especially for the transponder. Bob has
recommended this for quite some time. Steinair sells it by the foot, as
does B&C.
John
> I'm installing a Garmin GTX-320A in my RV-9A. Is the standard Radio
> Shack RG-58 coax suitable for use between transponder and > the
> antenna? The length would be between 8 and 10 feet.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joe Connell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernard Despins <bdespins(at)telusplanet.net> |
| Subject: | Extra Diode in Z-14 (rev K) diagram |
I was looking at diagram Z-14 (revision K) and noticed the label
<>"1N5400" just to the left of the Aux Battery Contactor. It is next to
the label for the ANL30, but as far as I can tell, it shouldn't be
<>there. The spike catching diode for the contactor is on the
right. Can someone confirm this?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | M3 Approach GPS Install Manual |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
I didn't have any luck when I checked, so inquiring if anyone has a link to (or
willing to sell) an M3 Approach GPS install manual. Yes, yes, I know. Its a
boat-anchor, but its an excellent DME.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Bruce Niles ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Bruce Niles
Lists: Aeroelectric-List
Subject: Switch Fences
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/bniles@cfl.rr.com.07.02.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
I've spent two days searching the Europa archives for a solution to this
problem with no success. I found several discussions about RFI and the
trim indcator, but no solutions. I looked under RFI, trim indicators,
PTT, radio transimissions, and a host of other topics.
Can you be more specific as to the solution or the topic of possible
solutions?
Thanks,
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
--------------------------------------------
> From: D Wysong
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem
>
>
> I believe the Europa guys 'solved' this problem a few months ago. You
> might look at their archive to see if you can scare up any helpful info.
>
> D
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | USB powered GPS with iPaq?? |
1.30 UNDISC_RECIPS Valid-looking To "undisclosed-recipients"
Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
USB cable with an iPaq?
Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty good
deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
lagniappe.
I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: USB powered GPS with iPaq?? 1.30 UNDISC_RECIPS |
Valid-looking To "undisclosed-recipients"
When I asked that question in another place and time, I was advised that
it was not currently possible. Something about the signals in the USB
world are quite different than those required by Ipaq [which is a type
of RS232]. If you find differently, please let us know. Earl
Charlie England wrote:
>
>Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
>USB cable with an iPaq?
>
>Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
>talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty good
>deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
>lagniappe.
>
>I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Charlie
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank & Dorothy <frankvdh(at)xtra.co.nz> |
I don't know what kind of interface an Ipaq has, but I do know about
RS232 and USB.
RS232 is old-school stuff -- relatively slow, no software component, no
power supply. Lot's of hacks and variations.
USB is a complicated beast... it provides +5V power as well as
high-speed serial comms. The +5V supply is regulated and
current-controlled... you can short out the red & black wires on a USB
cable and nothing bad will happen. There's rules for discovering new
devices when they connect, and for sharing the bandwidth. All this means
that it's not easy to add USB to an existing device, and practically
impossible to roll-your-own.
So, if the Ipaq doesn't already have a USB port, then Charlie is out of
luck. Even if it has a USB interface, I expect (I'm not totally sure
about this -- if it's important to you, check it out with someone who
*is* sure) it'll be the wrong kind... a peripheral device that sucks
power from a PC rather than one that can supply power to another device.
You can get an RS232-to-USB interface, but that's back-to-front from
what Charlie wants. You plug it into the USB port of your PC, and it
provides a serial port to talk to your out-of-date-but-still-needed
RS-232 device.
I think that Bluetooth is a more likely connectivity solution for
palmtop devices than USB... There's plenty of Bluetooth GPS receivers
available -- see http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/menu_gpshardware3.php for
example.
Frank
Earl_Schroeder wrote:
>When I asked that question in another place and time, I was advised that
>it was not currently possible. Something about the signals in the USB
>world are quite different than those required by Ipaq [which is a type
>of RS232]. If you find differently, please let us know. Earl
>
>Charlie England wrote:
>Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
>USB cable with an iPaq?
>
>Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
>talks through a USB port for around $80.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wickert <jimw_btg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: USB powered GPS with iPaq?? 1.30 |
UNDISC_RECIPS Valid-looking To "undisclosed-recipients"
Charlie,
I have not at this time used it but I have a unit that is supplied by Mountain
Scope, PCavionics that is a USB connect and they also have a Bluetooth as well.
Check it out on thier site.
Jim Wickert
Vision #159
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
USB cable with an iPaq?
Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty good
deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
lagniappe.
I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
Avionics-List message previously posted by: "Doug Rozendaal"
> I am an RV guy and have a question. Can an Argus 5000 be used as the sole
> indicator for an IFR
> GPS? Is an additional annunciator required? How would OBS mode work?
> Thanks Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
7/4/2005
Hello Doug, If you are going to be flying your aircraft IFR the wording of
your Operating Limitations and the FAA's interpretation of that wording is
that your aircraft must comply with the instrument and equipment
requirements of FAR Sec. 91.205.
If you read that entire Section carefully, paying particular attention to
sub paragraph (d) (2), that should answer your question regarding the
regulatory requirement for an additional annuciator in your amateur built
experimental airplane.
Guidance on GPS operations under IFR is available in paragraph 1-1-20 of the
Aeronautical Information Manual.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Split Pin Connectors? |
7/4/2005
Hello Experts and a Happy Independence Day to you, My friend took his
Beechcraft Sierra to an avionics shop because his autopilot was not working
when he retrieved the airplane from its annual inspection.
The avionics shop gave him a tale of woe plus big $$$$$ about needing to
replace a bunch of "split pin connectors" in the autopilot wiring system.
I am not familiar with "split pin connectors". Can anyone please educate me?
Thanks.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
Excellent! Here's the link to their usb powered gps engine:
http://www.pcavionics.com/custserv/usb_gps_specs.jsp
This means that it's do-able with pretty much any usb gps, some
connectors & soldering skills.
Thanks, Jim.
Charlie
Jim Wickert wrote:
>
>Charlie,
>
>I have not at this time used it but I have a unit that is supplied by Mountain
Scope, PCavionics that is a USB connect and they also have a Bluetooth as well.
Check it out on thier site.
>
>Jim Wickert
>Vision #159
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
>To: undisclosed-recipients:;
>
>
>Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
>USB cable with an iPaq?
>
>Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
>talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty good
>deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
>lagniappe.
>
>I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: USB powered GPS with iPaq?? |
Hi Charlie,
I recently set up Airgator on my Toshiba e800 and I am quite impressed with
the product, but what impressed my more though was their willingness of the
vendor to work with me. I didn't use any of his standard cabling but he
spent time explaining what I needed and providing "hard to get" plugs.
If you thinking of setting something up then they would be worth a call (+1
914 666 5656 ) . The guy I spoke to was Amir.
Paul
>
>
> Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
> USB cable with an iPaq?
>
> Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
> talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty good
> deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
> lagniappe.
>
> I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Split Pin Connectors? |
>
>7/4/2005
>
>Hello Experts and a Happy Independence Day to you, My friend took his
>Beechcraft Sierra to an avionics shop because his autopilot was not working
>when he retrieved the airplane from its annual inspection.
>
>The avionics shop gave him a tale of woe plus big $$$$$ about needing to
>replace a bunch of "split pin connectors" in the autopilot wiring system.
>
>I am not familiar with "split pin connectors". Can anyone please educate me?
>Thanks.
. . . hmmmm . . . a very non-descriptive nomenclature.
He needs to ask for a part number and the name of the
supplier that uses that part number. To ice the cake,
if the avionics guy can supply just one example pin . . .
new, used, already installed on a piece of wire, what
ever.
You can do all the google searches you want on "split
pin" and have near zero chance of identifying this
part.
What's the brand and model number of the autopilot?
One can often deduce the connector technology by knowing
who made the system. Manufacturers often have a stable
of connectors-of-choice. Getting a peek at the installation/
maintenance manual for the autopilot may help. Was the
autopilot installed as a Beechcraft option? If so, I
may have access to data in the company archives that
would help.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Extra Diode in Z-14 (rev K) diagram |
>
>
>I was looking at diagram Z-14 (revision K) and noticed the label
><>"1N5400" just to the left of the Aux Battery Contactor. It is next to
>the label for the ANL30, but as far as I can tell, it shouldn't be
><>there. The spike catching diode for the contactor is on the
>right. Can someone confirm this?
Correct. This is an artifact of some editing activity.
A revision "L" drawing has been posted to:
http://aeroelectric.com/PPS
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> terminals? |
| Subject: | Re: lockwashers on Odyssey battery |
terminals?
>
>Ok, ignorant question....does anybody see a need to add a lockwasher to
>the battery terminal bolts? My PC-680 battery just came with a plain
>washer for each bolt, but no lockwasher. Seems like everything else on
>an airplane uses some sort of lockwasher, cotter pin, or self locking
>nut, so I'm wondering if this is an exception? No point in adding it if
>it ain't needed though....
Lockwashers are a real mixed bag . . . they're better than nothing
but a whole lot less than a real thread-locking technology used
to insure integrity of the joint.
The "need" is very non-quantified. Battery terminals on my
van get checked for torque every time I service anything under
the hood . . . and more often than not, they move a bit under
my very un-calibrated torque force which suggests that they
have loosened since last tightening.
I have considered thread locking these fasteners but I have
some questions as to the mechanism that produces loosening.
The threaded sockets on the battery are lead-alloy, did the
fastener loosen because the lead moved? If so, tread locking
will not fix it. The threads are in a horizontal plane and
heavy cables come off the battery at right angles to that
plane such that vertical vibration puts torque moments on
the fastener. Hmmm . . . thread locking would work here quite
nicely.
As soon as I figure out which phenomenon I'm going to
experiment with, I'll let you all know what I find out.
In the mean time, the best anyone is likely to offer in
answer to your question will be something like, "I (did/didn't)
use lockwashers on my (fill in brand and part number) battery
and I (have/haven't) had problems with loosening.
The always right answer is thread lock the joint. There
are commercial goops and goos from Locktite, Formagasket
and others but simply coating the first few threads of
your bolt with E-6000 cement will go a long way toward
keeping the fastener from ROTATING. I believe that this
battery uses brass inserts so concerns for soft material
don't apply. E-6000 will add some insurance against
movement but will not prevent normal removal/replacement
of the fastener for maintenance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | "Fixing" a problem by repositioning a coax. |
While we were in Denver, I noticed an item from a List member
wherein he related someone's suggestion that repositioning
antenna coax(es) in his airplane with respect to other wiring
might/would relieve some kind of interference problems.
I don't have that note in front of me but it's easy to reply
to in generic fashion.
Quality coaxial cable (and RG400 or RG142 ARE indeed quality
cables) does not pick up outside noises nor does it emit
noises into other systems as long as it's properly installed
and operated. This means that the standing wave ratio on the
feedline is low and that it's properly terminated at each
end.
EVERY time I've encountered a situation where coax positioning
might have made a difference (perhaps two or three times in 40 years) the
REAL root cause of interference was a improperly applied connector
or a de-mated connector at one end of that coax.
In all cases, the interference problem was investigated by
inspection of the connectors combined with a look at electrical
quality of the antenna system using some form of antenna
analyzer.
There is no value added by segregating coax feedlines
from other aircraft wiring . . . in fact, I'll suggest that
there is value in keeping them together. If one provided sufficient
isolation to prevent a malfunctioning feedline from interfering
with other systems, the problem may go unnoticed. Bundle them
all up together so that your intercom, nav receiver, etc can
"sniff" for any RF that exists on the OUTSIDE of the coax
and offer timely notification so that it can be investigated
and fixed.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Fogerson" <rickf(at)cableone.net> |
| Subject: | Diagnostic voltages for Alternator |
Hi Bob,
I put a jack in my airplane a la Page Z-6 for alternator diagnostics. I have B&C's
alternator and voltage regulator. Could I get some numbers/ranges to the
voltages for the descriptive words in the following paragraphs:
Paragraph (a) alt output is zero when the bus voltage is ______?
Paragraph (e) If the field voltage is high_____? and does not drop significantly_____?
when engine rpm increases but bus voltage seems normal under light load
and sags under heavy loads....
What would be the voltage regulators normal set point____?
Thanks Bob and have a great 4th of July,
Rick Fogerson
RV3 done, making POH
Boise, ID
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: USB powered GPS with iPaq?? |
Not sure what a GPS "engine is" but if you are talking about a GPS receiver, power
jack and plug (that goes into the bottom of a iPaq) Yes these Y-cables work
great. As far as Comp USA or Delorme, don't know. There are a lot of GPS plug-in
power cables for the iPaq on the market. I see Anywhere map's GPS for the
iPaq is pretty expensive, so you can definitely save money buying a a GPS unit
and software separately. Check out GPS city for example of what is available:
http://www.gpscity.com/cat-pda-gps.htm
I have a Destinator software and GPS/pwr cable for my iPaq and car use. Works great.
I also have a CF (compact flash) GPS card (BC-307) that slips into the iPaq
expansion sleeve slot. It also works well. It has the antenna built into the
card but also has a plug in extension antenna. It is great for portability
(like hiking) but does not power the iPaq, you need a separate power cable for
car or plane use. I got the BC-307 off of eBay for $50 and the Destinator came
with the software.
USB powered? You don't want USB for your iPaq, you wand the iPaq plug. BTW the
port in the bottom of the iPaq is a SERIAL port and uses a NMEA protocol. The
USB is what you plug into the PC to patch you iPaq to the PC. Since you said
iPaq, I assume you want a iPaq serial (RS232) plug on the end, not a USB, which
is for laptop use.
Google the web for reviews of GPS units (both cable/plug and CF type) for PDA's
and Laptops, some brands seem to not be as sensitive. Not all GPS chipsets are
the same for a fact. There are different GPS chips. Most all GPS now have WAAS
capability, but not all GPS are the same quality. Read the Internet reviews
first of plug in GPS receiver's, some are not as sensitive or stable. Also reading
about why GPS gives incorrect altitude (satellite geometry and math model
used), some chipsets are +/-100 and cheaper ones are +/-200 feet. Although altitude
is not the use GPS, it is an indication of quality.
Not sure about DeLorme, but a quick scan of review shows poor reviews, but it seems
more from the map software than the hardware (GPS receiver).
Take care George
>Charlie England
>Subject: USB powered GPS with iPaq??
>
>Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
>USB cable with an iPaq? Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's
>both powered & talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty
good
>deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
>lagniappe.I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
>Thanks, Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem |
Hello Charlie -
Didn't mean to send you on a snipe hunt. I believe you found the
discussion (EMI/RFI) that I remembered reading. The only 'solution'
that I recall involved shielding the Ray Allen wiring and separating
it from the antenna wiring.
Try posting your issue over on the Europa list to the attention of a
fellow named Nigel Charles to see he'll give you a readback/summary of
what they uncovered. I bet he'll CC this list if asked, too.
Hope this helps!
D
--------------------------
On 7/3/05, Charlie Brame wrote:
>
> I've spent two days searching the Europa archives for a solution to this
> problem with no success. I found several discussions about RFI and the
> trim indcator, but no solutions. I looked under RFI, trim indicators,
> PTT, radio transimissions, and a host of other topics.
>
> Can you be more specific as to the solution or the topic of possible
> solutions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: PTT and Trim Indicator Problem From: "John Schroeder" |
Charlie -
Don't send the note to Nigel, send it to Nev. Here's the recent
thread that I was talking about:
http://www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2005-06/msg00157.html
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmers & LED Indicators |
Folks,
I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump Switch/Controller
and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator trim in my GlaStar.
The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting control wire
into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any effect
on the LED light intensity.
I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also strikes
me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot clockwise, the resistance
goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get brighter. I'm going
to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I can see them
in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during the day but
if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED indicators, my indicators
will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn the voltage up to see
them.
Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in this application?
(If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to control both the
fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel space.)
Best regards,
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wickert <jimw_btg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Sources for USB GPS at econ costs! |
Charlie,
Also here is a website that has several GPS reviews for a lot of units that are
Bluetooth, USB and Serial:
http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/menu_gpshardware3.php
This is a website for GPS Bluetooth engines USB and Serial convention that are
as low as $109.00 they also have interconnection parts and pieces adapters that
interface to the 12 volt auto citcuit with regulated power as well.
http://www.deluoelectronics.com/customer/gps_laptop_pda_bluetooth.php?section=BLUETOOTH.
These two sites seem to have a lot of informaiton.
Take care!
Jim Wickert
Vision #159
Some will have some will not!!! Homebuilt aircraft!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject:
Excellent! Here's the link to their usb powered gps engine:
http://www.pcavionics.com/custserv/usb_gps_specs.jsp
This means that it's do-able with pretty much any usb gps, some
connectors & soldering skills.
Thanks, Jim.
Charlie
Jim Wickert wrote:
>
>Charlie,
>
>I have not at this time used it but I have a unit that is supplied by Mountain
Scope, PCavionics that is a USB connect and they also have a Bluetooth as well.
Check it out on thier site.
>
>Jim Wickert
>Vision #159
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
>To: undisclosed-recipients:;
>
>
>Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
>USB cable with an iPaq?
>
>Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's both powered &
>talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a pretty good
>deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
>lagniappe.
>
>I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Charlie
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: USB powered GPS with iPaq?? |
Thanks for the link; they have several under $100 that will probably work.
'Engine' is sometimes used to describe a bare-bones gps receiver with no
display; just antenna (sometimes), power input & data output.
To reduce confusion a bit, my old iPaq 3600 (& I suspect most of the
other models as well) supports both (quasi-)rs232 & usb at the
interface connector on the bottom. USB is just 4 wires: power, ground,
data in & data out. If usb protocol is implemented on both devices, they
will usually talk to each other requiring, at most, that you 'cross'
the data lines.
I guess the only unanswered question on most of these 'engines' is
update frequency. Some are 1 per second; I suspect that the unspecified
ones are considerably slower.
Thanks for all the help & I'll report my results after I take some action.
Charlie
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:
>
>Not sure what a GPS "engine is" but if you are talking about a GPS receiver, power
jack and plug (that goes into the bottom of a iPaq) Yes these Y-cables work
great. As far as Comp USA or Delorme, don't know. There are a lot of GPS plug-in
power cables for the iPaq on the market. I see Anywhere map's GPS for the
iPaq is pretty expensive, so you can definitely save money buying a a GPS unit
and software separately. Check out GPS city for example of what is available:
>
>http://www.gpscity.com/cat-pda-gps.htm
>
>
>I have a Destinator software and GPS/pwr cable for my iPaq and car use. Works
great. I also have a CF (compact flash) GPS card (BC-307) that slips into the
iPaq expansion sleeve slot. It also works well. It has the antenna built into
the card but also has a plug in extension antenna. It is great for portability
(like hiking) but does not power the iPaq, you need a separate power cable for
car or plane use. I got the BC-307 off of eBay for $50 and the Destinator came
with the software.
>
>USB powered? You don't want USB for your iPaq, you wand the iPaq plug. BTW the
port in the bottom of the iPaq is a SERIAL port and uses a NMEA protocol. The
USB is what you plug into the PC to patch you iPaq to the PC. Since you said
iPaq, I assume you want a iPaq serial (RS232) plug on the end, not a USB, which
is for laptop use.
>
>Google the web for reviews of GPS units (both cable/plug and CF type) for PDA's
and Laptops, some brands seem to not be as sensitive. Not all GPS chipsets are
the same for a fact. There are different GPS chips. Most all GPS now have WAAS
capability, but not all GPS are the same quality. Read the Internet reviews
first of plug in GPS receiver's, some are not as sensitive or stable. Also reading
about why GPS gives incorrect altitude (satellite geometry and math model
used), some chipsets are +/-100 and cheaper ones are +/-200 feet. Although
altitude is not the use GPS, it is an indication of quality.
>
>Not sure about DeLorme, but a quick scan of review shows poor reviews, but it
seems more from the map software than the hardware (GPS receiver).
>
>Take care George
>
>
>
>
>>Charlie England
>>Subject: USB powered GPS with iPaq??
>>
>>Has anyone successfully used one of the GPS engines powered through the
>>USB cable with an iPaq? Comp USA has a DeLorme 12 channel WAAS NMEA GPS that's
>both powered & talks through a USB port for around $80. This seems to be a
pretty good
>>deal if it will work with the iPaq & the street software would be
>>lagniappe.I'll probably buy AnywhereMap software to run on it.
>>Thanks, Charlie
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
Z-USANET-MsgId: XID726Jgea4m0074X30
Generaly you dim LEDs by flashing them - more off than on to make them appear
dimmer. Anything faster than 100 Hz appears to be a constant signal to the
eye. LEDs don't have much in the way of dynamic range as far as full-on to
full-off without being willing to burn them up without realy precise
voltage/current control. But they do turn on and off really quickly.
I've been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked at
this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few days
I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that complex -
just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
Chad
Chad Sipperley
Lancair IVP turbine (under construction)
Phoenix, AZ
------ Original Message ------
From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
> Folks,
>
> I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator trim
in my GlaStar.
>
> The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting control
wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any
effect on the LED light intensity.
>
> I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
>
> Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also
strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot clockwise,
the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get brighter.
I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I can
see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during the
day but if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED
indicators, my indicators will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn the
voltage up to see them.
>
> Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in this
application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to control
both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel space.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
I bought 4 of the Luxeon 1W stars in series and hooked them up to a
variable power supply. They dim just fine, you just have to keep the
maximum voltage below their maximum limits. No need to flash them. At
maximum brightness, they will blind you. And you can dim them all the way off.
Dave Morris
At 07:55 PM 7/4/2005, you wrote:
>
>Generaly you dim LEDs by flashing them - more off than on to make them appear
>dimmer. Anything faster than 100 Hz appears to be a constant signal to the
>eye. LEDs don't have much in the way of dynamic range as far as full-on to
>full-off without being willing to burn them up without realy precise
>voltage/current control. But they do turn on and off really quickly.
>
>I've been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
>voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked at
>this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few days
>I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that complex -
>just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
>
>Chad
>
>
>Chad Sipperley
>Lancair IVP turbine (under construction)
>Phoenix, AZ
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
>Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator trim
>in my GlaStar.
> >
> > The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting control
>wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any
>effect on the LED light intensity.
> >
> > I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also
>strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot clockwise,
>the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get brighter.
>I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I can
>see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during the
>day but if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED
>indicators, my indicators will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn the
>voltage up to see them.
> >
> > Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in this
>application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to control
>both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel space.)
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John D. Heath" <Alto_Q(at)direcway.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
Chad, Bob
Check out June and July 2001, at this link:
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
John D.
----- Original Message -----
From: <chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
> Generaly you dim LEDs by flashing them - more off than on to make them
> appear
> dimmer. Anything faster than 100 Hz appears to be a constant signal to the
> eye. LEDs don't have much in the way of dynamic range as far as full-on to
> full-off without being willing to burn them up without realy precise
> voltage/current control. But they do turn on and off really quickly.
>
> I've been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
> voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked at
> this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few
> days
> I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that
> complex -
> just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
>
> Chad
>
>
> Chad Sipperley
> Lancair IVP turbine (under construction)
> Phoenix, AZ
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
> To:
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
> Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator
> trim
> in my GlaStar.
>>
>> The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting
>> control
> wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any
> effect on the LED light intensity.
>>
>> I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
>>
>> Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also
> strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot
> clockwise,
> the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get brighter.
> I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I
> can
> see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during
> the
> day but if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED
> indicators, my indicators will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn
> the
> voltage up to see them.
>>
>> Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in this
> application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to
> control
> both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel space.)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
Z-USANET-MsgId: XID656JgecHH0130X37
Yeah,
I've been playing with the 5W versions of the same lights you mentioned (and
yes, at max power they WILL flash-blind you). They have a bit more gradual
voltage-current curve than your ordinary LED. Usually you'll only have about
0.2-0.5V from minimum voltage to max current. Without knowing the limits of
the LEDs in an indicator I'd be hesitant to try varying voltages - especially
if I've got multiple indicators that might all behave differently. But if you
have them all set to the same flasher they'll all dim the same (most LEDs turn
on and off quickly enough to stay matched in intensity).
Chad
Chad Sipperley
Lancair IVP-turbine (under construction)
Phoenix, AZ
------ Original Message ------
From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
> I bought 4 of the Luxeon 1W stars in series and hooked them up to a
> variable power supply. They dim just fine, you just have to keep the
> maximum voltage below their maximum limits. No need to flash them. At
> maximum brightness, they will blind you. And you can dim them all the way
off.
>
> Dave Morris
>
>
> At 07:55 PM 7/4/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >Generaly you dim LEDs by flashing them - more off than on to make them
appear
> >dimmer. Anything faster than 100 Hz appears to be a constant signal to the
> >eye. LEDs don't have much in the way of dynamic range as far as full-on to
> >full-off without being willing to burn them up without realy precise
> >voltage/current control. But they do turn on and off really quickly.
> >
> >I've been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
> >voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked at
> >this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few
days
> >I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that complex
-
> >just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
> >
> >Chad
> >
> >
> >Chad Sipperley
> >Lancair IVP turbine (under construction)
> >Phoenix, AZ
> >
> >------ Original Message ------
> >From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
> >To:
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
> >
> > >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
> >Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator
trim
> >in my GlaStar.
> > >
> > > The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting
control
> >wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any
> >effect on the LED light intensity.
> > >
> > > I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It
also
> >strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot
clockwise,
> >the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get brighter.
> >I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I
can
> >see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during
the
> >day but if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED
> >indicators, my indicators will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn
the
> >voltage up to see them.
> > >
> > > Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in
this
> >application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to
control
> >both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel space.)
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
Z-USANET-MsgId: XID605JgecZ70457X36
Great link - exactly what I was hoping someone could pull up for me *grin*.
Reminds me of the fist day of class in my first engineering course. His advice
was that the first rule of engineering is to see if someone has already solved
your problem for you.
Thanks!
Chad
Chad Sipperley
Lancair IVP-turbine (under construction)
Phoenix, AZ
------ Original Message ------
From: "John D. Heath" <Alto_Q(at)direcway.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
> Chad, Bob
> Check out June and July 2001, at this link:
> http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
> John D.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org>
> To:
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
>
> >
> > Generaly you dim LEDs by flashing them - more off than on to make them
> > appear
> > dimmer. Anything faster than 100 Hz appears to be a constant signal to
the
> > eye. LEDs don't have much in the way of dynamic range as far as full-on
to
> > full-off without being willing to burn them up without realy precise
> > voltage/current control. But they do turn on and off really quickly.
> >
> > I've been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
> > voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked
at
> > this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few
> > days
> > I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that
> > complex -
> > just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
> >
> > Chad
> >
> >
> > Chad Sipperley
> > Lancair IVP turbine (under construction)
> > Phoenix, AZ
> >
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
> >
> >>
> >> Folks,
> >>
> >> I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
> > Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator
> > trim
> > in my GlaStar.
> >>
> >> The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting
> >> control
> > wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any
> > effect on the LED light intensity.
> >>
> >> I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
> >>
> >> Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also
> > strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot
> > clockwise,
> > the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get
brighter.
> > I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I
> > can
> > see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during
> > the
> > day but if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED
> > indicators, my indicators will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn
> > the
> > voltage up to see them.
> >>
> >> Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in
this
> > application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to
> > control
> > both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel
space.)
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
Eric Jones of Perihelion Designs isn't tooting his own horn here, so I will
do it for him. He has a great little dimmer for only $29.75 here
http://www.periheliondesign.com/Vregflyer.htm
Dave Morris
At 08:53 PM 7/4/2005, you wrote:
>
>Chad, Bob
> Check out June and July 2001, at this link:
>http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
>John D.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org>
>To:
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
>
>
> >
> > Generaly you dim LEDs by flashing them - more off than on to make them
> > appear
> > dimmer. Anything faster than 100 Hz appears to be a constant signal to the
> > eye. LEDs don't have much in the way of dynamic range as far as full-on to
> > full-off without being willing to burn them up without realy precise
> > voltage/current control. But they do turn on and off really quickly.
> >
> > I've been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
> > voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked at
> > this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few
> > days
> > I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that
> > complex -
> > just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
> >
> > Chad
> >
> >
> > Chad Sipperley
> > Lancair IVP turbine (under construction)
> > Phoenix, AZ
> >
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
> > To:
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmers & LED Indicators
> >
> >>
> >> Folks,
> >>
> >> I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
> > Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator
> > trim
> > in my GlaStar.
> >>
> >> The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting
> >> control
> > wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't have any
> > effect on the LED light intensity.
> >>
> >> I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
> >>
> >> Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also
> > strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot
> > clockwise,
> > the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights get brighter.
> > I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness during the day so I
> > can
> > see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel lights at full bright during
> > the
> > day but if I use the same dimmer for panel lights as I do for the LED
> > indicators, my indicators will be dim during the day and I'll have to turn
> > the
> > voltage up to see them.
> >>
> >> Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in this
> > application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to
> > control
> > both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save panel space.)
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
In a message dated 07/04/2005 6:57:40 PM Central Standard Time,
chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org writes:
been toying with this problem as well. What's needed is a
voltage-controlled duty cycle circuit. I just moved so I haven't looked at
this for a couple weeks. But if nobody has a better idea for you in a few days
I'll get back to working on that circuit. It shouldn't be all that complex -
just gonna take me sitting down and doing it.
>>>>
Take a look at one of these 10 amp, $16 PWM motor controllers- I used one on
my plane (tossed the reverse switch and remote-wired a better quality variable
resistor to the panel) and it works beautifully...
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD
See:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5104
and also click "next entry" at top of page
For a look a the modified dimmer installed, see:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5003
It's the gold-colored board, lower left side of the tray.
Have fun-
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
I found that this work well for LEDs and Switch lights. http://www.periheliondesign.com/Vregflyer.htm
Mark Banus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bob -
Check the installation instructions of the RC Allen indicators. I believe
the LEDs on these are not dimmed by a dimmer. Rather, they have to have a
connection to full buss voltage for dimming. As you can figure, this gives
you only one position for the dim. I didn't believe it and called RC
Allen. They confirmed it. WE thern wired it to the panel light switch that
also controls the power to the panel lights dimmer.
I installed a B&C dimmer and it works for dimming the LED's on the Garmin
340 Audio Panel. With the pot fully counterclockwise, these LED's are off.
With it fully clockwise, the LED's are bright. If you want it the other
way around, you might call B&C and ask if you can switch the leads from
the pot to the dimmer.
We had the 340 LED's hooked to a 4 channel Pulse Width Modulated dimmer
and that made the LED's flicker. So we switched them to the B&C dimmer.
Turns out that the 340 has its own peculiar LED biasing system and needs a
straight voltage variation for dimming.We have both dimmers installed. The
PWM is a Flight Data Systems product and was specially designed for LED
dimming.
http://www.fdatasystems.com/
It is the LC-40 and sells for $89
I have no clue about the pillar point switch/controller.
Hope this helps,
John Schroeder
>
> Folks,
>
> I'm installing B&C's DIM 15-14 Dimmer Assembly, Pillar Point Fuel Pump
> Switch/Controller and Ray Allen RP3 LED position indicator for elevator
> trim in my GlaStar.
>
> The Pillar Point installation instructions say to wire the lighting
> control wire into a dimmer. I tried it with the DIM 15-14 and it didn't
> have any effect on the LED light intensity.
>
> I also have the same question about the Ray Allen LED trim indicator.
>
> Any suggestions on how to dim the LEDs in these two indicators? It also
> strikes me that there is a complication. As I turn my dimmer pot
> clockwise, the resistance goes down, the voltage goes up and the lights
> get brighter. I'm going to want the LEDs at their maximum brightness
> during the day so I can see them in sunlight. I don't want my panel
> lights at full bright during the day but if I use the same dimmer for
> panel lights as I do for the LED indicators, my indicators will be dim
> during the day and I'll have to turn the voltage up to see them.
>
> Is there another dimmer module or a simple ol' pot that will work in
> this application? (If I need another dimmer/pot, I'd like to use one to
> control both the fuel pump controller and the trim indicator to save
> panel space.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bob
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED Indicators |
> Check out June and July 2001, at this link:
>http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/
Jim Weir should have added some caveats to this--like a filter capacitor is
needed in the output stage to drive LEDs. Otherwise--welcome to the disco
party fella, and it's in your own cockpit.
Chew on some hard candy in front of your monitor to find out why. The
stroboscopic effect induced by vibration OR pulse-width modulation is a
visual distraction and is to be avoided unless the frequency is out of the
range of visual and vibration effects (depends on the application).
Since microprocessor LED displays usually operate in the MHz, this is rarely
a problem. But if you chose to roll your own and pulse-width modulate the
LEDs at up to many many kilohertz....The sad part is that they may look okay
on the workbench. LEDs are capable of being strobes very fast, and circuitry
built for incandescent lamps may not work well. Usually a capacitor on the
output will fix the problem.
The Urban Legend that LEDs need pulse-width modulation needs squashing. LEDs
work just fine by varying the power to them in a purely DC fashion. The
difference is in the control circuitry. A pulse-width dimmer can be built
that dissipates almost no heat, and thus is extremely efficient. On the
other hand, it has more parts and produces some electromagnetic interference
(EMI) and strobe effects.
Remember to use LEDs in series to lower the required current, since the
current determines how beefy the power supply needs to be. For example: LEDs
have a small forward voltage (that's the voltage when they begin to
light)...so you can divide you battery voltage by the LED's forwad voltage
to determine the number you can put in series. (More or less.)
I sell a little EGPAVR (Extremely General Purpose Adjustable Voltage
Regulator) dimmer for LEDs and lamps that is about as small and light as one
can design. Everyone else sells some thing similar, but bigger and heavier
and more expensive.
Eric M. Jones (Glastar 5540)
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Nothing is too wonderful to be true."
James Clerk Maxwell, discoverer of electromagnetism
"Too much of a good thing can be wonderful."
Mae West, discoverer of personal magnetism
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | What happens if Master contactor fails? |
It is amazing how much you learn and understand an airplanes electrical
system when you actually start wiring one.
Anyway... the question at hand... what happens (if anything) if the master
contactor fails? The alternator is connected to the battery via this
contactor... so if this thing gives up the ghost... do bad things happen?
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Wiring)
#90569
<http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
EAA Chapter 1329 President
EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chad-c_sip(at)stanfordalumni.org |
| Subject: | Re: What happens if Master contactor fails? |
Z-USANET-MsgId: XID420JgeVgM0172X30
If you wire your plane as per one of the "Z" figures in Bob's book that
shouldn't be a problem. Bob always routes a secondary path for the electrons
to get to the essential bus through a diode that bypasses the contactor. I'm
assuming you're thinking of a mode of failure that the contactor breaks open
and stays that way. With the E-bus diode you'll have a seondary path to the
e-bus only.
If your contactor fails closed, well that's not a problem in flight really I
would't think.
Chad
Chad Sipperley
Lancair IVP-turbine (under construction)
Phoenix, AZ
------ Original Message ------
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What happens if Master contactor fails?
>
> It is amazing how much you learn and understand an airplanes electrical
> system when you actually start wiring one.
>
> Anyway... the question at hand... what happens (if anything) if the master
> contactor fails? The alternator is connected to the battery via this
> contactor... so if this thing gives up the ghost... do bad things happen?
>
> Matthew Brandes,
> Van's RV-9A (Wiring)
> #90569
> <http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
>
> EAA Chapter 1329 President
> EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
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envelope-from=trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt;
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED indicators |
Eric
Does your EGPAVR also dim the indicators from RAC?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Barter" <kesleyel(at)iowatelecom.net> |
Bob,
After checking the forums list for EAA Oshkosh, I noticed that your name is
no longer listed. Is this an oversight, or will you not be giving a
presentation? I hope will still be there, as I really enjoyed visiting with
you last year.
Tom Barter
Kesley, IA
Avid Magnum
Working on electrical systems
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh forum |
>
>
>Bob,
>
>After checking the forums list for EAA Oshkosh, I noticed that your name is
>no longer listed. Is this an oversight, or will you not be giving a
>presentation? I hope will still be there, as I really enjoyed visiting with
>you last year.
>
>
>Tom Barter
We were planning to be at OSH again this year but a number
of inter-related requirements for attending just didn't come
together. I had to beg off the Saturday forum for 2005. We'll
try again next year.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Bean <jim-bean(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Split Pin Connectors? |
This probably has nothing to do with the posters "split pins". As a
young engineer many years ago I honchoed the install of an expensive
RADAR prototype in a destroyer. The cables were made up by the Boston
navy yard. Whoever inserted the pins into the connectors apparently used
a very sharp screwdriver to push them in. All of barrels of the pins
were split and expanded resulting in a massive short. Really let the
blue smoke out.
Jim Bean
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED indicators |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Carlos -
Not according to the tech @ Ray Allen. Let me know if this is not so.
Thanks,
John
wrote:
>
>
> Eric
>
> Does your EGPAVR also dim the indicators from RAC?
>
> Carlos
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cameron Kurth <cameronkurth(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin 196 interferes with com radio |
I have a Garmin 196 that is wired into the plane's
power buss. I get interference at a small range of
frequencies on my com radio from the Garmin (just
happens to be Detroit approach). If I pull the fuse
to the Garmin so it runs off the battery the
interference goes away. It's a similar interference
that the Dynon D10's had when they first came out.
So, what kind of filter should I use? Will the Radio
Shack 270-055 work in this situation? I called Garmin
about it. They said that the 196 was a handheld so it
has to meet the same specs as a toaster. They were
very nice about it but quite clear that it's only a
handheld so it was not designed for airplane use and
I'm on my own.
Thanks
Cam
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmers & LED indicators |
>Not according to the tech @ Ray Allen. Let me know if this is not so.
>John
>> Eric.... Does your EGPAVR also dim the indicators from RAC?
>> Carlos
Carlos,
I say definitely probably maybe.
The device has an LM914 bargraph driver in it, and there is no reason the
display cannot be dimmed---however a small modification to the MAC/RAC trim
meter may be required. I just may tinker with this.
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before.
--Mae West
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim and Lucy <jpollard(at)ciaccess.com> |
Working on the wiring diagram for a subaru
powered Zodiac with 2 fuel pumps and 2 electronic
ignitions and 2 batteries.
I would like a switch that would allow me to run
each ignition and each fuel pump of either of my
2 battery busses. This would be 4 switches.
Also the best setup for this would be down position
of the switch is off. Middle would be left battery
and all the way up would be other battery.
I looked at quite allot of switches last night and
they all seemed to have the middle position as on.
thanks for any pointers
Jim Pollard
Merlin Ont
Zenair ch601hds
ea81
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Need a switch |
In a message dated 7/6/2005 8:37:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
jpollard(at)ciaccess.com writes:
Also the best setup for this would be down position
of the switch is off. Middle would be left battery
and all the way up would be other battery.
I looked at quite allot of switches last night and
they all seemed to have the middle position as on.
Good Morning Jim,
I am not sure just what is needed, but I have used triple throw switches to
accomplish what I think you want to do. They have no OFF position, just
three ON positions. All you have to do is not hook up the contacts that will
be
hot when the lever is in the down position.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike & Lee Anne Wiebe" <mwiebe(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Help - low voltage - update |
Well all, sorry for the slow response. But is seems that the need to
make money to buy avgas got in the way of consuming it for the last week
or so.
Thx for the advice on my low voltage situation (Falco, with EI
instrumentation). I tested various conditions in a 'safe flight'
environment and found the following, using the on board EI
instrumentation. I seem to have isolated it to a strobe issue, but
would appreciate any insights.
Battery voltage before start 12.2 (it had run a little, cycling gear
etc. for some other tests recently). After start, charging 25A at 13.9V
at 1100rpm. Within 30 seconds, it was 15A, same other readings.
I loaded it up to a 20 amp draw in runup (1700 rpm) in various
configurations and saw between 13.8 and 14.0 volts. The only exception
was with the strobe on and it was bouncing between 12.1 and 12.9 volts,
and between 12-14 amps draw. In flight (anywhere between 2300 and
2700 rpm), with loads of up to 20 Amps saw voltages of 14.2 virtually
rock solid. Again however, with the strobe on, voltage varied between
12.9-14.1 volts, and 11-13 amps draw.
All other readings in the cockpit (egt, cht, oil temps/pressures, etc.)
which are also all monitored through EI instrumentation were rock solid
during strobe operation. So I don't think it's strobe noise issue. The
strobes work (Whelan, big multiple flash unit). So the simple answer
appears to be to leave the strobes off. However, if any genius out
there can describe a failure mode from this data, I'd sure appreciate
the insights.
Thx
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator selection |
Hi Bob,
No offence taken, really. I am currently using a unit from a Toyota
(Nippon Denso) and it's working fine. Due to a broken bracket I've had the
opportunity to revisit the alternator issue. I've always been concerned by
the fact that the flywheel pulley is many times the diameter of the
alternator pulley making for an alternator speed approaching the sound
barrier (in my feeble mind anyway). I was reading one of the internet lists
yesterday and someone said the Suzuki unit was in addition to being very
well made, designed to handle higher RPM's. I was trying to verify this.
Feel free to rain on this parade any time, there are no problems today,
only opportunities for growth.
Thanks Bob, you're a good man,
Thank you for the kind words. The only speed issue I'm aware of
is the rational offered by B&C for balancing their ND alternators
on a spin balance machine before reassembling them. This decision
was based on an observation of poor bearing life in airplanes. This
same observation prompted Vans to offer an oversized pulley to slow
down certain alternators. Bill elected to stay fast for good output
at ramp and taxi speeds and better cooling at cruise. Hence the
smaller pulley on the balanced rotor.
I am skeptical of any assertions about "designed to handle
higher RPM" without specific knowledge of the features which
make this practical. As we all know, there's a whole lot of
blue smoke and wishful thoughts circulating through our
world that passes for good advice and the path to salvation.
If one wanted to take any stock automotive rotor and have it
balanced locally, it certainly wouldn't hurt. There MIGHT be
a secondary issue with slip ring surface speeds. The ND
machines have very small slip rings that offer the lowest
practical surface speeds under the brushes. There MAY be many
machines suited to your task. The ND machines are the only
ones I have much knowledge about and that is only peripheral
as a result of my association with B&C over the years. Their
products have DEMONSTRATED an exemplary service life.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 interferes with com radio |
>
>
>I have a Garmin 196 that is wired into the plane's
>power buss. I get interference at a small range of
>frequencies on my com radio from the Garmin (just
>happens to be Detroit approach). If I pull the fuse
>to the Garmin so it runs off the battery the
>interference goes away. It's a similar interference
>that the Dynon D10's had when they first came out.
>
>So, what kind of filter should I use? Will the Radio
>Shack 270-055 work in this situation? I called Garmin
>about it. They said that the 196 was a handheld so it
>has to meet the same specs as a toaster. They were
>very nice about it but quite clear that it's only a
>handheld so it was not designed for airplane use and
>I'm on my own.
This is NOT going to be easy. The symptoms you describe
walk, talk and smell like radiated noise from the radio
itself. Try operating the Garmin from a separate portable
battery (does it have internal batteries?). If the noise
goes away, a filter in the wires may help. If the noise
is still there, then relocating the Garmin is the only
thing left . . . it's unlikely that you want to build
a shielded enclosure for the Garmin.
This is an example of what DO-160 does for us in
the certified world. These issues are best addressed
in the design lab as opposed to your cockpit.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Contactors, Relays and stuff |
Ready for more dumb questions?
The way I understand it, contactors can carry heavy loads, relays can carry
medium loads, and switches can carry light loads.
If correct, what are the 12 volt load ranges for each?
Can I use a relay instead of a contactor to connect the battery to the main
bus? Would I want to do that? Are there disadvantages?
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Contactors, Relays and stuff |
>
>Ready for more dumb questions?
>
>The way I understand it, contactors can carry heavy loads, relays can carry
>medium loads, and switches can carry light loads.
>
>If correct, what are the 12 volt load ranges for each?
>
>Can I use a relay instead of a contactor to connect the battery to the main
>bus? Would I want to do that? Are there disadvantages?
>
>Stan Sutterfield
There are no hard delineations between contactors, switches, and relays.
You can buy a 'contactor' that's rated for only 20A, 'relays' rated
for 100A and 'switches' rated for any number you'd like to choose.
I'll suggest you avoid getting wrapped around the axle of
loose definitions and concentrate on what task you'd like to
perform, what the electrical and mechanical requirements are
for the task and select the electro-whizzy that does the
job for a price you find attractive irrespective of its
nomenclature.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Need a switch |
>
>
>In a message dated 7/6/2005 8:37:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>jpollard(at)ciaccess.com writes:
>
>Also the best setup for this would be down position
>of the switch is off. Middle would be left battery
>and all the way up would be other battery.
>
>I looked at quite allot of switches last night and
>they all seemed to have the middle position as on.
>
>
>Good Morning Jim,
>
>I am not sure just what is needed, but I have used triple throw switches to
>accomplish what I think you want to do. They have no OFF position, just
>three ON positions. All you have to do is not hook up the contacts that
>will be
>hot when the lever is in the down position.
This is easily accomplished with the 2-10 style
of switch described in Figures 11-16, 11-17, and
11-18 of the 'Connection
The 2-10 style switch is offered by B&C and others.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Pointers...sure don't do it...:)
Now of course this is just my preference but having the exact same
aircraft and set up probably gives me some airtime..
Anyway. I like to avoid any single point of failure...A changeover
switch like this is a single point of failure...if the switch burns up
down you go!
I set mine up with a single on/off switch for each fuel pump and each
ignition. Batt #1 runs the left fuel pump and Ign #1. Batt #2 runs the
right Fp and Ignition #2.
The benefit with this system is no interconnection and very very simple.
The second batt is on 3AH but should be good for at least an hour of
flying on the right tank. Depending on current draw you can size your
batteries to suit your needs.
The single alt charges both batteries, but use a diode between Bat #1
and Batt#2 to prevent backflow in the event of a major short.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
and Lucy
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a switch
June 21, 2005 - July 06, 2005
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-eo