AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-es
August 10, 2005 - August 22, 2005
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>I'm a little confused here.
>
>Every IR alternator I have seen in my hot rod days had a voltage sensing
>terminal. In my ND unit this is called the "s" terminal and is normally
>wired to account for losses in the wiring (Van's doesn't use this
>terminal in their standard setup)
>
>Would this not take care of the forward loss thru the diode?
>
>
The ones I've played with do not have a sense terminal. If a sense wire
became disconnected it would result in high output so I think the heavy
and presumably more secure B-lead connection is normally used for sensing.
>Crowbarring a 60A nominal alternator just feels little too "Robocop" for
>an airplane application for me... Think I might stick with the Kilovolt
>disconnect for the time being.
>
>
If you can crowbar it you may be able to shut it down (stall it) and
prevent further internal alternator damage. Some alternators start up
just fine without being connected to a battery though so I'm not sure
how universal such an approach would be.
If you just open the B-lead then apparently some melting may occur
within the alternator which presumably could have at least some risk of
causing problems (fire?) outside the alternator. As the voltage
continues to rise more field current flows which causes higher voltage
which causes more field current etc. until something gives... I think I
should do some destructive alternator testing before I send my next old
car to the wreckers ;)
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Sounds like fun...On the ground..:)
Eric also sells a what he calls a "whackjack" (which I have installed)
As I understand it this is some kind of zener diode the shorts the
output of the disconnected B lead to ground (it is also sacrificed
during this process), (I'm a mechanical engineer so forgive my flaky
description).
I have set up my #1 alt to have the OV and field wiring switched thru a
DPDT switch (normally never turned off). The idea is if it goes OV I can
shut the field down too, that way I have no weired back feeding via the
alt field wiring. Hoping I should be able to react before any fires get
started...:)
The rest of it is then normal power management, master off... Alternate
feed on, prayers of encouragement towards the SD-8 etc...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>--> (Corvallis)"
>
>I'm a little confused here.
>
>Every IR alternator I have seen in my hot rod days had a voltage
>sensing terminal. In my ND unit this is called the "s" terminal and is
>normally wired to account for losses in the wiring (Van's doesn't use
>this terminal in their standard setup)
>
>Would this not take care of the forward loss thru the diode?
>
>
The ones I've played with do not have a sense terminal. If a sense wire
became disconnected it would result in high output so I think the heavy
and presumably more secure B-lead connection is normally used for
sensing.
>Crowbarring a 60A nominal alternator just feels little too "Robocop"
>for an airplane application for me... Think I might stick with the
>Kilovolt disconnect for the time being.
>
>
If you can crowbar it you may be able to shut it down (stall it) and
prevent further internal alternator damage. Some alternators start up
just fine without being connected to a battery though so I'm not sure
how universal such an approach would be.
If you just open the B-lead then apparently some melting may occur
within the alternator which presumably could have at least some risk of
causing problems (fire?) outside the alternator. As the voltage
continues to rise more field current flows which causes higher voltage
which causes more field current etc. until something gives... I think I
should do some destructive alternator testing before I send my next old
car to the wreckers ;)
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>Sounds like fun...On the ground..:)
>
>Eric also sells a what he calls a "whackjack" (which I have installed)
>As I understand it this is some kind of zener diode the shorts the
>output of the disconnected B lead to ground (it is also sacrificed
>during this process), (I'm a mechanical engineer so forgive my flaky
>description).
>
>I have set up my #1 alt to have the OV and field wiring switched thru a
>DPDT switch (normally never turned off). The idea is if it goes OV I can
>shut the field down too, that way I have no weired back feeding via the
>alt field wiring. Hoping I should be able to react before any fires get
>started...:)
>
Frank I lost you here. That sounds like an external regulator that you
can turn the field off. There is no issue or concerns if that is the
case as that kills the alternator completely.
But if in fact you have an internal regulator then you can't turn off
the field as it is connected internally within the alternator. It is
only with the internal regulator that you would use a B-lead contactor.
It is only with an internal regulator that you'd consider trying to
crowbar the alternator output to stall it. In my previous post I was
strictly talking about internal regulated alternators.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leo Corbalis" <leocorbalis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Painting Antenae |
If your ADF loop is in black streamlined housing. do NOT paint it. The
manufacturer might have some special paint. The black plastic is a static
shield. I'll save the WAR story but it is real. Try your paint on a piece of
paper and then cover the GPS antenna with it to see if the receiver gives
you an OK on the satellite signal strength page.
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: "GMC" <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Painting Antenae
>
>
> Anyone have advice on repainting a ADF loop antenna. GPS, marker beacon
> and fiberglass comm antenna should also be able to be rejuvenated, yes??
> no??.
>
> Thanks,
>
> George in Langley BC
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Actually so was I...i do have an IR alt...But there is still a field
wire that I am disconnecting if it goes OV toghter with the Kilovolt
opening and the alt B lead shorted to ground via the whackjack
suppressor.
Did'nt realise the field was connected internally as well?...Hopefully
the whackjack will pull it down without it bursting into flames??????
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>--> (Corvallis)"
>
>Sounds like fun...On the ground..:)
>
>Eric also sells a what he calls a "whackjack" (which I have installed)
>As I understand it this is some kind of zener diode the shorts the
>output of the disconnected B lead to ground (it is also sacrificed
>during this process), (I'm a mechanical engineer so forgive my flaky
>description).
>
>I have set up my #1 alt to have the OV and field wiring switched thru a
>DPDT switch (normally never turned off). The idea is if it goes OV I
>can shut the field down too, that way I have no weired back feeding via
>the alt field wiring. Hoping I should be able to react before any fires
>get
>started...:)
>
Frank I lost you here. That sounds like an external regulator that you
can turn the field off. There is no issue or concerns if that is the
case as that kills the alternator completely.
But if in fact you have an internal regulator then you can't turn off
the field as it is connected internally within the alternator. It is
only with the internal regulator that you would use a B-lead contactor.
It is only with an internal regulator that you'd consider trying to
crowbar the alternator output to stall it. In my previous post I was
strictly talking about internal regulated alternators.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>
>I'm a little confused here.
>
>Every IR alternator I have seen in my hot rod days had a voltage sensing
>terminal. In my ND unit this is called the "s" terminal and is normally
>wired to account for losses in the wiring (Van's doesn't use this
>terminal in their standard setup)
>
>Would this not take care of the forward loss thru the diode?
Don't know but it's an exciting prospect. Do you have any
documentation that describes functionality of this pin? If sense
pins are left open on some designs, the system either shuts down
or the regulator goes into OV condition. If the "S" pin exists
and it's designed for remote voltage sensing, I'd be very pleased
to have some kind of confirmation.
>Crowbarring a 60A nominal alternator just feels little too "Robocop" for
>an airplane application for me... Think I might stick with the Kilovolt
>disconnect for the time being.
Your initial impressions are understandable. But look at it this
way. In ANY crowbar activity, the goal is to bring the protected lead
to some very low if not zero volts as quickly as practical and with
the least expenditure of ENERGY.
It's easy for folks to get volts, amps, watts, and energy sorta
all stirred into the same pot . . . because they're all defined in
terms of each other. But an oft overlooked component of energy is
that it always includes some reference to TIME. You PAY for kilowatt
HOURS delivered to the back of your house, strobe lights for your
camera or wing tip are measured in Joules (watt-seconds).
Let's consider three different examples of crowbar events recently
discussed. (1) Transorbs on downstream side of circuit breakers,
(2) crowbar ov module on downstream side of field breaker, and
(3) crowbar ov module on output of 60A alternator.
(1) if bus voltage goes up causing a Transorb downstream of a
breaker to go into conduction, the POWER dissipated in the
Transorb is volts x amps. Just for grins, let us assume the
fault current flowing in the Transorb is 10A driven through
a 5A breaker. In: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf
page 3, we examine the specifications for some suggested parts
and find that 10A may take 2 to 10 seconds to open the 5A
breaker. On the same page, we see that fault currents
trough 1500 WATT Transorb have been characterized over a
10 MILLISECOND TO 100 MICROSECOND range. Hmmmm . . . how about
10 seconds? A Transorb is a special version of a zener.
The 1500 Watt (peak) parts have a continuous dissipation
rating on the order of 3-5 watts. 10A at 20 Volts is 200W.
What is likelyhood of the device surviving 200W dissipation
for 10 seconds (2000 watt seconds, 2000 Joules)?
(2) Let's throw a 2v short downstream of a 5A breaker used
for field circuit protection. We've hypothesized and measured
crowbar events that range from 75-300 amps and trip times
that range from 20 to 500 milliseconds. Here, the low current
event takes the longest, the high current event is shortest.
75A x 12V = 900 watts for 500 milliseconds or 450 watt seconds.
300A x 12v = 3600 watts for 20 mS or 72 watt seconds. The
really neat thing about this scenario is that the ENERGY is
not concentrated in one component as in (1) above. Wiring,
breaker resistance and crowbar voltage drops all get to share
small portions of the total energy budget for the event.
(3) Now, suppose we have a runaway 60 amp altenrator that
has been disconnected from the bus and then shorted by some
means as yet to be described. Keep in mind that an alternator
is a constant current device. It physically cannot deliver
a current flow much greater than nameplate rating. So, assume
80A. When presented with an 80A load, how long will it take
for the b-terminal voltage on a self-excited, runaway
alternator to be brought to heal? Great question that
I'd like to explore (and will as part of the testing proposed
in the conduct of this study). I'm betting it will be under
1 millisecond. As the b-terminal sags under load, field excitation
goes down commensurately. The machine simply collapses into
an inert heap of copper and steel with a total energy dump
that's a tiny fraction of any modes discussed before.
Call it "tough love" but crowbaring a diode isolated, runaway
alternator is the fastest, lowest stress, minimum energy
way to bring a potentially catastrophic scenario to
order. I proposed to demonstrate or disprove that hypothesis
in experiments that anyone is welcome to repeat to show
us where we went wrong.
>Gee maybe I could write a PHD theses on the phsychology of wiring
>systems in aircraft...:)
Please do sir! I think the AeroElectric-List has provided
a wealth of examples how ignorance (sorry, I cannot think
of a shorter term to describe lack of knowledge) and
unwillingness to sift the sand of underlying simple-ideas
wastes a lot of emotional resources. I'd rather have
folks reserve emotional capital for the day they put
first daylight under the wheels.
In the mean time, does anyone out there have any data
on the "S" terminal of any internally regulated alternator?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>If you can crowbar it you may be able to shut it down (stall it) and
>prevent further internal alternator damage. Some alternators start up
>just fine without being connected to a battery though so I'm not sure
>how universal such an approach would be.
>
>If you just open the B-lead then apparently some melting may occur
>within the alternator which presumably could have at least some risk of
>causing problems (fire?) outside the alternator. As the voltage
>continues to rise more field current flows which causes higher voltage
>which causes more field current etc. until something gives... I think I
>should do some destructive alternator testing before I send my next old
>car to the wreckers ;)
Correct. It's not "may" but "will" . . . We've seen several
instances of destruction of the alternator's field winding
when the regulator lost control of alternator output. I'm
not too worried about fire . . . these wires are small gage
and buried deep in the alternator. Your idea for testing
is tantalizing. If you do have an opportunity to do this,
let's talk about setup, photographing, and documentation
for the library of repeatable tests.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
Yup that's the problem. The internal power fed to the field.
In regards to your original question though it seems that there are
indeed alternators out there that still use a sense line such as
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf
Just out of interest I should investigate the control or IGN line a bit
more. I've read a couple of times that it is used to delay turning on
the field until after the engine is started but I've seen several
schematics that energise that line as soon as the key is turned on.
Makes me think it is really there to tell the regulator to turn off the
field if the engine is switched off and the alternator is not turning.
Well I guess that is almost the same thing but it doesn't necessarily
have to turn it off if it is still turning.
Ken
>snip
>Did'nt realise the field was connected internally as well?...Hopefully
>the whackjack will pull it down without it bursting into flames??????
>
>Frank
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Hmmm...some very good points and a logical way of pointing out to an
errant alternator that he's being a very naughty boy!...I still have the
vision of Robocop holding onto the 480 V power terminals to "reset" his
CPU!..:)
Data on a S terminal..Hmm...I thought it was common knowledge? For years
I was wondering what this litt 14GA wire was for that simply paralelled
the 6Ga wire that went from the B terminal to the battery on my old MG.
The little wire came from its own terminal labelled "s".
On this website there is a guy that describes the hookup of 1987 Suzuki
Samuri alt (I have one of these on my Soob conversion and its wired the
same way.
Take a look at this... http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/alternator.htm
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
-->
(Corvallis)"
>
>
>I'm a little confused here.
>
>Every IR alternator I have seen in my hot rod days had a voltage
>sensing terminal. In my ND unit this is called the "s" terminal and is
>normally wired to account for losses in the wiring (Van's doesn't use
>this terminal in their standard setup)
>
>Would this not take care of the forward loss thru the diode?
Don't know but it's an exciting prospect. Do you have any
documentation that describes functionality of this pin? If sense
pins are left open on some designs, the system either shuts down
or the regulator goes into OV condition. If the "S" pin exists
and it's designed for remote voltage sensing, I'd be very pleased
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
I have two simple toggle switches one for each ignition.
I wonder if say for Ign #1 I should make this a DP switch and run the
alt Ign wire through the second pole? The wire will be turned off with
the Master sw (and my combined OV/ field wire switch) but that is
several seconds after the engine has stopped turning.
Any thoghts?
For that matter I could make both the ign switches double pole and wire
the second poles in parallel...That way the IGN wire would be turned off
when the last ignition is shut off...I don't like interconecting
critical devices like this though...what do you think?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
Yup that's the problem. The internal power fed to the field.
In regards to your original question though it seems that there are
indeed alternators out there that still use a sense line such as
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf
Just out of interest I should investigate the control or IGN line a bit
more. I've read a couple of times that it is used to delay turning on
the field until after the engine is started but I've seen several
schematics that energise that line as soon as the key is turned on.
Makes me think it is really there to tell the regulator to turn off the
field if the engine is switched off and the alternator is not turning.
Well I guess that is almost the same thing but it doesn't necessarily
have to turn it off if it is still turning.
Ken
>snip
>Did'nt realise the field was connected internally as well?...Hopefully
>the whackjack will pull it down without it bursting into flames??????
>
>Frank
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Well I'm not too worried about my $100 alternator...if the whakjack does
not save the alt I really don't care...Now Bob if you think fire is not
an issue it sounds like a "Safe" setup at least?
Assuming the SD-8 gets me home of course..:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
-->
>
>If you can crowbar it you may be able to shut it down (stall it) and
>prevent further internal alternator damage. Some alternators start up
>just fine without being connected to a battery though so I'm not sure
>how universal such an approach would be.
>
>If you just open the B-lead then apparently some melting may occur
>within the alternator which presumably could have at least some risk of
>causing problems (fire?) outside the alternator. As the voltage
>continues to rise more field current flows which causes higher voltage
>which causes more field current etc. until something gives... I think
>I should do some destructive alternator testing before I send my next
>old car to the wreckers ;)
Correct. It's not "may" but "will" . . . We've seen several
instances of destruction of the alternator's field winding
when the regulator lost control of alternator output. I'm
not too worried about fire . . . these wires are small gage
and buried deep in the alternator. Your idea for testing
is tantalizing. If you do have an opportunity to do this,
let's talk about setup, photographing, and documentation
for the library of repeatable tests.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>
>Well I'm not too worried about my $100 alternator...if the whakjack does
>not save the alt I really don't care...Now Bob if you think fire is not
>an issue it sounds like a "Safe" setup at least?
>
>Assuming the SD-8 gets me home of course..:)
>
>Frank
If you have an SD-8, it's a no-brainer if you load-shed
to 8A or less. For about 10 years before we did the "All
Electric Airplane on a Budge Article" for SA, one alternator
and a well maintained battery would get most of us home too.
That's the nice thing about failure tolerant design. It makes
us think, plan and predict with understanding and confidence.
This is the last thing a purveyor of the "next great shield
against disaster" wants to happen. It's hard to sell elephant
stampede insurance to folks that don't live in elephant country
. . . but you gotta understand the country where you live.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>
>Hmmm...some very good points and a logical way of pointing out to an
>errant alternator that he's being a very naughty boy!...I still have the
>vision of Robocop holding onto the 480 V power terminals to "reset" his
>CPU!..:)
>
>Data on a S terminal..Hmm...I thought it was common knowledge? For years
>I was wondering what this litt 14GA wire was for that simply paralelled
>the 6Ga wire that went from the B terminal to the battery on my old MG.
>The little wire came from its own terminal labelled "s".
It's common knowledge for folks who work with these parts.
The closest I've ever come to a stock automotive alternator was
when we did the first teardowns to see how to take the internal
regulator out and modify them for operation as "aircraft" alternators.
There was no interest or need to understand the parts we were taking
out. In recent times, we've been distracted with fielding cabbages
and tomatoes from folks who claimed great understanding of these
alternators but were perhaps also distracted with broader missions.
>On this website there is a guy that describes the hookup of 1987 Suzuki
>Samuri alt (I have one of these on my Soob conversion and its wired the
>same way.
>
>Take a look at this... http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/alternator.htm
This looks like it has excerpts from the article done by Mr.
Sullivan on autoshop101.com
This is great stuff. Thanks for the heads-up guys! If it's common for
the IR Alternator to be fitted with a remote sense wire, then I can
see the potential for some really neat ways to implement these
critters into the positive control, aircraft paradigm.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>Yup that's the problem. The internal power fed to the field.
>
>In regards to your original question though it seems that there are
>indeed alternators out there that still use a sense line such as
>
>http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf
Nice piece of work. I'm going to write this guy and see if he'll
let me add this document to the library on aeroelectric.com
>Just out of interest I should investigate the control or IGN line a bit
>more. I've read a couple of times that it is used to delay turning on
>the field until after the engine is started but I've seen several
>schematics that energise that line as soon as the key is turned on.
>Makes me think it is really there to tell the regulator to turn off the
>field if the engine is switched off and the alternator is not turning.
>Well I guess that is almost the same thing but it doesn't necessarily
>have to turn it off if it is still turning.
Good questions. The first time I worked with alternator regulators
was on the Cessna generator to alternator conversions. I've got some
notes somewhere from that time that speak to functionality of those
terminals at the time. Of course, these were electro-mechanical
regulators like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ALTREG6.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ALTREG2.jpg
I recall that not having a light bulb to provide continuity
between the bus and the "I" terminal would not allow the alternator
to come on line. We later added a resistor in parallel with the
lamp to make sure the alternator comes up even if the bulb is
burned out.
The "S" terminal looked for stator tap voltage to close
the field relay and fully excite the alternator. This was
a "switch" function as opposed to a "sense" function.
I loosely assumed that "S" still had the same functionality
in the modern parts. If it's really a voltage sense terminal,
then there are very interesting prospects to consider.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Just a note,
Van's stock 60A alternator does not show a bulb in the IGN line..But
shows the IGN and L (lamp?) leads tied together and fed from the master
switch.
The S lead they leave disconnected.
Not sure if I want a charge light or not but if I do I think using an
LED is a better approach than a bulb...LEDs seem to last forever.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
-->
>
>Yup that's the problem. The internal power fed to the field.
>
>In regards to your original question though it seems that there are
>indeed alternators out there that still use a sense line such as
>
>http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf
Nice piece of work. I'm going to write this guy and see if he'll
let me add this document to the library on aeroelectric.com
>Just out of interest I should investigate the control or IGN line a bit
>more. I've read a couple of times that it is used to delay turning on
>the field until after the engine is started but I've seen several
>schematics that energise that line as soon as the key is turned on.
>Makes me think it is really there to tell the regulator to turn off the
>field if the engine is switched off and the alternator is not turning.
>Well I guess that is almost the same thing but it doesn't necessarily
>have to turn it off if it is still turning.
Good questions. The first time I worked with alternator regulators
was on the Cessna generator to alternator conversions. I've got some
notes somewhere from that time that speak to functionality of those
terminals at the time. Of course, these were electro-mechanical
regulators like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ALTREG6.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ALTREG2.jpg
I recall that not having a light bulb to provide continuity
between the bus and the "I" terminal would not allow the alternator
to come on line. We later added a resistor in parallel with the
lamp to make sure the alternator comes up even if the bulb is
burned out.
The "S" terminal looked for stator tap voltage to close
the field relay and fully excite the alternator. This was
a "switch" function as opposed to a "sense" function.
I loosely assumed that "S" still had the same functionality
in the modern parts. If it's really a voltage sense terminal,
then there are very interesting prospects to consider.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>
>Just a note,
>
>Van's stock 60A alternator does not show a bulb in the IGN line..But
>shows the IGN and L (lamp?) leads tied together and fed from the master
>switch.
Hmmmm. Interesting. If L is for "lamp" I hope it's current limited
inside the regulator. Pulling down on a lead that's expected to have
a lamp in series with it could be devastating to the reguator's lamp
driver . . . but perhaps it just smokes it and nobody knows or cares.
>The S lead they leave disconnected.
It would be an interesting experiment to hook this lead to
the bus through a fuse and put a switch in it. Measure voltage
at the bus with as many loads on as practical. Measure voltage
with the switch open and then closed. If it's a sense lead, the
bus voltage switch closed will be higher than with the switch
open.
>Not sure if I want a charge light or not but if I do I think using an
>LED is a better approach than a bulb...LEDs seem to last forever.
If you have active notification of low voltage, any other
lights in the charging system are redundant. Even if it were
an incandescent lamp, it will have such a low duty cycle that
one lamp is likely to last the lifetime of the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
This one has more detail and some description of what happens when the S
or B terminal is disconnected.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h8.pdf
But this is a 20 year old (1983 vintage) alternator that he is
describing. It's a very small sample but I've looked through a few
service manuals and at a ND, a Delco, and a Mitsubishi and so far I
haven't found an alternator newer than 1990 that uses what appears to be
a voltage sense wire.
He has a whole list of automotive stuff at
http://www.autoshop101.com/autoshop15.html
Ken
snip
>>http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/alt_bwoh.pdf
>>
>>
>
> Nice piece of work. I'm going to write this guy and see if he'll
> let me add this document to the library on aeroelectric.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Com antenna ground plane |
I need some advice on my communication radio antenna installation. It
is a Comant antenna, and comes with a gasket that effectively insulates
the base of the antenna from the airplane skin. So the only
metal-to-metal contact between the antenna and the airplane's aluminum
skin will be via the four mounting machine screws. The airplane skin,
and the doubler where the antenna will mount, have both been epoxy
primed inside and out. I'm not sure that the rivets joining the doubler
to the underside of the skin will ensure electrical continuity between
them. Should I drill them out again before riveting to get rid of paint
in the rivet holes? I believe I need to scrape the paint off the
doubler where the washers on the mounting screws contact it, but is it
necessary to have more bare-metal-to-bare metal contact between the
doubler and the skin than what the rivets provide? Thanks.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Com antenna ground plane |
>
>
>I need some advice on my communication radio antenna installation. It
>is a Comant antenna, and comes with a gasket that effectively insulates
>the base of the antenna from the airplane skin. So the only
>metal-to-metal contact between the antenna and the airplane's aluminum
>skin will be via the four mounting machine screws. The airplane skin,
>and the doubler where the antenna will mount, have both been epoxy
>primed inside and out. I'm not sure that the rivets joining the doubler
>to the underside of the skin will ensure electrical continuity between
>them. Should I drill them out again before riveting to get rid of paint
>in the rivet holes? I believe I need to scrape the paint off the
>doubler where the washers on the mounting screws contact it, but is it
>necessary to have more bare-metal-to-bare metal contact between the
>doubler and the skin than what the rivets provide? Thanks.
If it were my airplane, I'd clean the area under the screw
heads in the antenna base casting and around the holes on the underside
of the skin where the nuts will bear.
Rivets swell in holes to the extent that ordinary finishes
like paint and primer are extruded out of the contact area.
I wouldn't worry about ground quality. Don't clean any paint
other finishes from either the underside of the antenna or
on the surface of the fuselage. The 4 mounting bolts are
sufficient.
Pitch the rubber gasket and use a non-hardening, non-reactive
gasket around the periphery of the antenna applied so that it
will squish out when the antenna is mounted.
Torque the mounting screws to values called out in AC43-13
for the screw material and size. Clean up the "squish" and
you're finished.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Com antenna ground plane |
I never use the gasket. I bare the skin under the antenna and make sure the
bottom of the antenna has good contact with the skin. Then I use caulk
around the base of the antenna to keep out water. That's it.
I assume the antenna comes with the gasket for pressurized aircraft.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Com antenna ground plane
>
>
> I need some advice on my communication radio antenna installation. It
> is a Comant antenna, and comes with a gasket that effectively insulates
> the base of the antenna from the airplane skin. So the only
> metal-to-metal contact between the antenna and the airplane's aluminum
> skin will be via the four mounting machine screws. The airplane skin,
> and the doubler where the antenna will mount, have both been epoxy
> primed inside and out. I'm not sure that the rivets joining the doubler
> to the underside of the skin will ensure electrical continuity between
> them. Should I drill them out again before riveting to get rid of paint
> in the rivet holes? I believe I need to scrape the paint off the
> doubler where the washers on the mounting screws contact it, but is it
> necessary to have more bare-metal-to-bare metal contact between the
> doubler and the skin than what the rivets provide? Thanks.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Com antenna ground plane (expanded) |
I wrote this rather quickly late last night and I see there
are some murky points that need filtered:
> >I need some advice on my communication radio antenna installation. It
> >is a Comant antenna, and comes with a gasket that effectively insulates
> >the base of the antenna from the airplane skin. So the only
> >metal-to-metal contact between the antenna and the airplane's aluminum
> >skin will be via the four mounting machine screws. The airplane skin,
> >and the doubler where the antenna will mount, have both been epoxy
> >primed inside and out. I'm not sure that the rivets joining the doubler
> >to the underside of the skin will ensure electrical continuity between
> >them. Should I drill them out again before riveting to get rid of paint
> >in the rivet holes? I believe I need to scrape the paint off the
> >doubler where the washers on the mounting screws contact it, but is it
> >necessary to have more bare-metal-to-bare metal contact between the
> >doubler and the skin than what the rivets provide? Thanks.
>
> If it were my airplane, I'd clean the area under the screw
> heads in the antenna base casting and around the holes on the
> underside
> of the skin where the nuts will bear.
>
> Rivets swell in holes to the extent that ordinary finishes
> like paint and primer are extruded out of the contact area.
> I wouldn't worry about ground quality (due to rivets). Don't
> clean any paint or other finishes from either the underside
> of the antenna or on the surface of the fuselage. The 4 mounting
> bolts are
> sufficient.
The reason for this advice is based on other conduction
technologies we've discussed where the golden condition
is gas-tight. One simply will not achieve gas tight connection
between antenna base and aircraft skin in any areas other than
those where hardware clamp up forces bring the conductors
together with sufficient pressure to craft a high-integrity
joint. Many a perfect paint job and formerly smooth antenna
base have been literally sacrificed to craft what the assembler
was told would be a high quality joint x-years from now.
Since most of the areas we're encouraged to make bright
and clean will have some degree of corrosion on them in 10
years, it's a given that gas-tight conditions do not exist
at these points under the antenna. Therefore, it seems a
wasted effort to scrape away perfectly good paint. The
conductivity of 3-4 mounting screws properly installed will
do the job nicely.
> Pitch the rubber gasket and use a non-hardening, non-reactive
> gasket around the periphery of the antenna applied so that it
> will squish out when the antenna is mounted.
This stuff will remain in the gaps where gas tightness has
not been achieved. Good, we're depending on this filler to
keep moisture out. In areas where gas-tight has been achieved,
the filler gets extruded out. By non-reactive, I mean no
solvents that attack paint (E-6000?) or attack metals (acetic
acid RTV). Outdoor vinyl calk comes to mind as a good choice.
> Torque the mounting screws to values called out in AC43-13
> for the screw material and size. Clean up the "squish" and
> you're finished.
You might even consider drilling out holes to install larger
hardware. Most antennas mount with 10-32 screws. 14-28 cap screws
might drop into the existing recesses in the antenna base.
Further, you can get capscrews in very hard materials that
will withstand mucho tightening.
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>This one has more detail and some description of what happens when the S
>or B terminal is disconnected.
>http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h8.pdf
>
>But this is a 20 year old (1983 vintage) alternator that he is
>describing. It's a very small sample but I've looked through a few
>service manuals and at a ND, a Delco, and a Mitsubishi and so far I
>haven't found an alternator newer than 1990 that uses what appears to be
>a voltage sense wire.
The modern day regulator chip detailed at:
http://www.freescale.com/files/analog/doc/data_sheet/MC33099.pdf
shows a remote sense lead which is optional. There
are switches in the circuitry to move between remote
and local sense automatically.
THIS ladies and gentlemen, is the kind of DATA I've been
referring to that offers us insight into operation of the
device . . . customer satisfaction (beyond meeting design
goals) and "reliability" are not parts of this study.
I'll call Tim today at B&C and ask if the current incoming
batches of ND alternators have an "S" terminal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
We have bought several items from Eric Jones and find them innovative and
fine workmanship. Had a bit of trouble with one of them and he took it
back twice to make the modification tha made it work for our application.
That's service and at no extra charge. He even designed a fresh air shut
off valve for the Lancair ES (very elegant and compact design) at our
urging and sent us the prototype for testing. I would recommend his
products to anyone for their intended use.
And he's a bit of a free spirit, too. I find that refreshing, although I
don't agree with his views all the time. And he answers the phone and
emails.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
>
> In a message dated 8/10/2005 2:57:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> If you are considering a purchase from him please don't go
> somewhere else because of a few off-the-cuff comments I made on this
> list.
> Talk to other people who have had dealings with the man and find out what
> sort of business person he is.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
I'm looking for a switch for a low-vacuum warning light. Any
suggestions?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart(at)iss.net> |
I got one from Rocky Mountain Instruments.
Mike
www.rkymtn.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Casey
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum switch
I'm looking for a switch for a low-vacuum warning light. Any
suggestions?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
You haven't seen some of my landings...:)
Yes my mind went the same place on not using the lamp, If I can't find a
better answer before painting the panel I might just slap one in there
anyway (my alt did not come from Van's but it looks the same). That way
I know its working as intended.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
-->
(Corvallis)"
>
>
>Just a note,
>
>Van's stock 60A alternator does not show a bulb in the IGN line..But
>shows the IGN and L (lamp?) leads tied together and fed from the master
>switch.
Hmmmm. Interesting. If L is for "lamp" I hope it's current limited
inside the regulator. Pulling down on a lead that's expected to have
a lamp in series with it could be devastating to the reguator's lamp
driver . . . but perhaps it just smokes it and nobody knows or cares.
>The S lead they leave disconnected.
It would be an interesting experiment to hook this lead to
the bus through a fuse and put a switch in it. Measure voltage
at the bus with as many loads on as practical. Measure voltage
with the switch open and then closed. If it's a sense lead, the
bus voltage switch closed will be higher than with the switch
open.
>Not sure if I want a charge light or not but if I do I think using an
>LED is a better approach than a bulb...LEDs seem to last forever.
If you have active notification of low voltage, any other
lights in the charging system are redundant. Even if it were
an incandescent lamp, it will have such a low duty cycle that
one lamp is likely to last the lifetime of the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
I guess it also depends on what you mean by current.
When I bought my alt it was for a 1987 (I think) ND unit...The 55amp
(Much favoured by homebuilders) ND is a 1987 Suzuki Samuri.
Looking at the age these are definatly from "yesteryear" but they are
still "currently" available if you see what I mean.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
-->
>
>This one has more detail and some description of what happens when the
>S or B terminal is disconnected.
>http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h8.pdf
>
>But this is a 20 year old (1983 vintage) alternator that he is
>describing. It's a very small sample but I've looked through a few
>service manuals and at a ND, a Delco, and a Mitsubishi and so far I
>haven't found an alternator newer than 1990 that uses what appears to
>be a voltage sense wire.
The modern day regulator chip detailed at:
http://www.freescale.com/files/analog/doc/data_sheet/MC33099.pdf
shows a remote sense lead which is optional. There
are switches in the circuitry to move between remote
and local sense automatically.
THIS ladies and gentlemen, is the kind of DATA I've been
referring to that offers us insight into operation of the
device . . . customer satisfaction (beyond meeting design
goals) and "reliability" are not parts of this study.
I'll call Tim today at B&C and ask if the current incoming
batches of ND alternators have an "S" terminal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711(at)msn.com> |
Gary
Mine came with my standby vacuum system from Precise Flight. I think they
sell them separately but might be pricy as they are certified.
Paul Schattauer
RV 8 808PS
>From: Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum switch
>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:29:18 -0700
>
>
>I'm looking for a switch for a low-vacuum warning light. Any
>suggestions?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lui Esc" <f1rocketbuilder(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | trim relay deck trim speed control |
I have the Infinity Aeropsace Trim Relay Deck, see at
http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Relay_Deck_Wiring_Schematic.jpg
I am trying to install a Ray Allen Speed control for the pitch trim but have
a few ?? on the wiring.
http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsSPD.pdf
Not sure where to connect the red wire from the Speed control to the
Infinity Relay Deck. The Relay Deck only has a
1. A port for Trim motor
2. B port for Trim motor
3. +12 v
4. Ground
It doesn't have a provision for "blue wire" like shown on Diagram 2 of the
Ray Allen schematic. I guess it is so simple that I don't see it.
Thank you,
Lui
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>
>You haven't seen some of my landings...:)
>
>Yes my mind went the same place on not using the lamp, If I can't find a
>better answer before painting the panel I might just slap one in there
>anyway (my alt did not come from Van's but it looks the same). That way
>I know its working as intended.
The active notification of low voltage light being OUT
says the alternator is working. The alternator warning
light may not be all inclusive of alternator failures while
the external low volt warning light IS all inclusive
of alternator failure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
True and I have a Dynon engine management system coming that I can set
auible alarms for any parameter I want....I was more worried about what
not having the light would do to the alternator and as a fall back I
could add the light even though it is redundant...Guess I could add a
resister instead though?
What value of resistor would make sense?..Should I simply measure the
resistance of a panel bulb to find out?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
-->
(Corvallis)"
>
>
>You haven't seen some of my landings...:)
>
>Yes my mind went the same place on not using the lamp, If I can't find
>a better answer before painting the panel I might just slap one in
>there anyway (my alt did not come from Van's but it looks the same).
>That way I know its working as intended.
The active notification of low voltage light being OUT
says the alternator is working. The alternator warning
light may not be all inclusive of alternator failures while
the external low volt warning light IS all inclusive
of alternator failure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
I would like to ditto John's comments. I have bought some items for my
Lancair ES from Perihelion Design and Eric was great to deal with and
very helpful. He answered my emails promptly. I wouldn't hesitate to
buy from him again in the future.
Mark Steitle
(No, Eric didn't pay me to say this)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Apology
We have bought several items from Eric Jones and find them innovative
and
fine workmanship. Had a bit of trouble with one of them and he took it
back twice to make the modification tha made it work for our
application.
That's service and at no extra charge. He even designed a fresh air shut
off valve for the Lancair ES (very elegant and compact design) at our
urging and sent us the prototype for testing. I would recommend his
products to anyone for their intended use.
And he's a bit of a free spirit, too. I find that refreshing, although I
don't agree with his views all the time. And he answers the phone and
emails.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
>
> In a message dated 8/10/2005 2:57:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> If you are considering a purchase from him please don't go
> somewhere else because of a few off-the-cuff comments I made on this
> list.
> Talk to other people who have had dealings with the man and find out
what
> sort of business person he is.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
Bob, you usually don't make such simple errors, but if the light is out it
tells you EITHER that the alternator is working or the bulb is not.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
>
>
>You haven't seen some of my landings...:)
>
>Yes my mind went the same place on not using the lamp, If I can't find a
>better answer before painting the panel I might just slap one in there
>anyway (my alt did not come from Van's but it looks the same). That way
>I know its working as intended.
The active notification of low voltage light being OUT
says the alternator is working. The alternator warning
light may not be all inclusive of alternator failures while
the external low volt warning light IS all inclusive
of alternator failure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>Bob, you usually don't make such simple errors, but if the light is out it
>tells you EITHER that the alternator is working or the bulb is not.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Rob Housman
Oh, sure. One assumes the bulb is good because of a pre-flight
check or some Press-to-test system. For warning lights that seldom
come on, an observation that the light is on before the alternator
is brought on line is usually sufficient. Low duty cycle warning
lights will generally last the lifetime of the airplane. Of course,
LED's are more attractive yet.
Were you making a distinction as to the operational logic of
an alternator warning light vis a vis a low voltage warning light?
The only point I was making is that LOW VOLTAGE is an absolute
indicator of inoperative alternator while there may be failure
modes within the alternator that would cripple it without lighting
the alternator failure light.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
>
>
>True and I have a Dynon engine management system coming that I can set
>auible alarms for any parameter I want....I was more worried about what
>not having the light would do to the alternator and as a fall back I
>could add the light even though it is redundant...Guess I could add a
>resister instead though?
>
>What value of resistor would make sense?..Should I simply measure the
>resistance of a panel bulb to find out?
Cold resistance of a lamp is a tiny fraction of the running
resistance. A 360 ohm resistor would be quite adequate.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
Tim at B&C thinks he has some engineering data on the
ND alternators they use as raw stock for the L-40/L60/SD-20
series alternators. He said he would share it with me if he
can find it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | alan_products <alan_products(at)blarg.net> |
| Subject: | turbine lightoff current |
Hi folks! I'll be constructing a Helicycle helicopter, a turbine-powered single
seater, after my 8A is done. The question of starter motor current draw has come
up.
Does anyone have hard data on the starter motor current draw over time to light
off a small turbine engine like a Solar T-62?
Thanks for any info!
Alan Erickson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator system design goals . . . |
Nope, my response was literal, taking into account the fragility of tungsten
filaments, not a comment on the advantages or disadvantages of any
particular scheme.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator system design goals . . .
<robh@hyperion-ef.us>
>
>Bob, you usually don't make such simple errors, but if the light is out it
>tells you EITHER that the alternator is working or the bulb is not.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Rob Housman
Oh, sure. One assumes the bulb is good because of a pre-flight
check or some Press-to-test system. For warning lights that seldom
come on, an observation that the light is on before the alternator
is brought on line is usually sufficient. Low duty cycle warning
lights will generally last the lifetime of the airplane. Of course,
LED's are more attractive yet.
Were you making a distinction as to the operational logic of
an alternator warning light vis a vis a low voltage warning light?
The only point I was making is that LOW VOLTAGE is an absolute
indicator of inoperative alternator while there may be failure
modes within the alternator that would cripple it without lighting
the alternator failure light.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: turbine lightoff current |
>
>
>Hi folks! I'll be constructing a Helicycle helicopter, a turbine-powered
>single seater, after my 8A is done. The question of starter motor current
>draw has come up.
>
>Does anyone have hard data on the starter motor current draw over time to
>light off a small turbine engine like a Solar T-62?
Does the supplier/manufacturer offer any engineering data
on installation of their products? This kind of info
should be a part of that package.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: turbine lightoff current |
>
>
>Hi folks! I'll be constructing a Helicycle helicopter, a turbine-powered
>single seater, after my 8A is done. The question of starter motor current
>draw has come up.
>
>Does anyone have hard data on the starter motor current draw over time to
>light off a small turbine engine like a Solar T-62?
These folks sell a manual for the engine:
http://www.aerotecdata.com/library.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GMC <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Electronic Circuit Breakers ? |
Bob & All
All this talk about the best alternator protection and nobody has
mentioned the new electronic circuit breakers with high/low voltage
cutout (16 & 10 volts) complete with warning light etc. Sounds like
crowbar over voltage protection in miniature. Maybe these pricey ($77)
items are the best way to protect my avionics stack! What say you, all I
know is what I see in the Aircraft Spruce catalog.
George in Langley BC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Circuit Breakers ? |
>
>
>Bob & All
>
>All this talk about the best alternator protection and nobody has
>mentioned the new electronic circuit breakers with high/low voltage
>cutout (16 & 10 volts) complete with warning light etc. Sounds like
>crowbar over voltage protection in miniature. Maybe these pricey ($77)
>items are the best way to protect my avionics stack! What say you, all I
>know is what I see in the Aircraft Spruce catalog.
I have a couple of these things to evaluate . . . but they're
pretty far back on the stove. I think they're a solid state
relay with some smarts for reacting to abnormal voltages.
I suspect they're a series switch that simply opens when
voltages get out of range.
The ones I have are fitted with miniature switches for
controls. If you used one of these for an alternator field
switch, they would protect the whole airplane . . . assuming
we're comfortable with their switching dynamics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Off to Plymouth, MA |
Dee and I are hopping the big iron bird for Boston, MA
at o-dark thirty in the morning. We're looking forward to
meeting 18 OBAM aircraft enthusiasts at the EAA Chapter 82
clubhouse this weekend.
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Plymouth_2005.html
If anyone has a chance to add this event to their weekend
activities, you don't need a reservation, just come on in.
Due to ticketing hassles, we won't be getting back until
late Monday night as opposed to our usual Sunday return.
I'm not even taking a computer this trip. They're too much
work. I've been doing some writing using the ol' ball-point
and a college ruled theme book. This $2.00, two-piece word processing
tool is pretty compact, and the batteries never run down.
My hand writing has improved over the past two trips, I can pretty
well read it now.
See you all next week!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: trim relay deck trim speed control |
Lui,
Sorry I didn't get to this before we had to leave. I've got it at
the top of my do-do list for our return unless someone else jumps
in to cover it.
Bob . . .
>
>
>
>I have the Infinity Aeropsace Trim Relay Deck, see at
>
>http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Relay_Deck_Wiring_Schematic.jpg
>
>I am trying to install a Ray Allen Speed control for the pitch trim but have
>a few ?? on the wiring.
>
>http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsSPD.pdf
>
>Not sure where to connect the red wire from the Speed control to the
>Infinity Relay Deck. The Relay Deck only has a
>
>1. A port for Trim motor
>2. B port for Trim motor
>3. +12 v
>4. Ground
>
>It doesn't have a provision for "blue wire" like shown on Diagram 2 of the
>Ray Allen schematic. I guess it is so simple that I don't see it.
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Lui
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum switch |
Gary,
I have been using this switch and have no problems with it. I bought a
couple to have on hand should one fail in the future. I only have 17
hours on my plane, but it has worked great during that time. When I
pull the throttle back to idle before shutting down, I get the alarm.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005081210041966&item=11-2344&catname
Mike Salzman
Fairfield, CA
LNCE
--- Gary Casey wrote:
>
>
> I'm looking for a switch for a low-vacuum warning light. Any
> suggestions?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gianni Zuliani" <gz(at)comgz.com> |
| Subject: | LR-3 problem... maybe |
Hi folks,
I bought one of these nice regulators, 14v, back in 1999 for my Stag-Ez.
Started flying last year, logged 50 hrs. No problems till last week, when I
had the
bad idea, while flying, to switch off the alternator field, to make sure the
origin of the (slight) whining I heard on my headsts was caused by
alternator (35 Ah
Van's rebuilt unit).
Yes, the whining was caused by the alternator, but since the first time
I reset the field, the following problem appeared: field's breaker popping
out from time to time at the beginning, then more and more often.
I was watching the voltage reading on my JPI: never exceeded 4.3 V.
Collateral problem: for about ten seconds after breaker's resetting the oil
temp reading was jumping full scale and then came back down slowly.
Could it be I managed to damage the regulator? Or the alternator? Why then?
Thank you for any clue you can pass to help me diagnose and solve my
problem.
Gianni Zuliani
Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzRG
http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Detroit Approach freq |
"
From: Cameron Kurth <cameronkurth(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 196 interferes with com radio
>I would be interested in the specific VHF frequencies
so I can test my setup.
The only frequency that has any interference is
118.95. That just happens to be Detroit Approach. I
live under Detroit's class B airspace so it's an
important frequency for me. Also I'm working on my
instrument ticket so I talk to approach quite abit and
a channel full of static just doesn't help in my
learnings :) Cam"
Fred et al,
This sounds to me to call for a 'stub' to short out the
interference in that freq. [standard tuning stub]. Installing it in a series
of lines might eliminate all but the offending unit?
Comments? Ferris Buehler? Anyone?
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Brandes <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | KX-155 Power connections help! |
HELP! I'm trying to wire up my KX-155/GS this afternoon and can't figure out
something.
The wiring diagram shows POWER IN on pins 14 and R.
The wiring diagram shows GROUND on pins 15 and S.
I power on the unit and nothing... so I'm looking at the wiring diagram for
something I missed.
There are two pins labled SWITCHED POWER IN (11 and M) and two pins labeled
SWITCHED POWER OUT (12 and N). The wiring diagram shows them all connected
together. My thought was that these were to power up an external CDI or
something. So I hooked two power wires up to the SW POWER IN pins and then
turned on the master. Immediately the radio came on! The radio now works but
the ON/OFF switch on the front of the unit doesn't control the power any more.
(I don't have anything connected to the SW POWER OUT right now.)
Has anyone wired a KX155 and can tell me what these Switched Power pins are for
and how they get wired? I don't want to go much further for fear of smoking
something.
Matthew
913.706.3087 (cell)
matthew at n523rv.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | KX-155 Power connections help! |
I have wired many KX155's. You should be able to power the unit with
14vdc at pins 14 and R. 28vdc at pins 13 and P, and with grounds at
pins S and 15. If this doesn't work I would say you have something
wrong with the radio (maybe a pico fuse on the power supply, not sure I
don't have the schematics here in front of me.... Switched in is for
bypassing the on off switch and is not normally used. Switched is for
low current units that you want to control with the KX-155 such as a VOR
head that requires a switched power input.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Matthew Brandes
Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX-155 Power connections help!
HELP! I'm trying to wire up my KX-155/GS this afternoon and can't figure
out
something.
The wiring diagram shows POWER IN on pins 14 and R.
The wiring diagram shows GROUND on pins 15 and S.
I power on the unit and nothing... so I'm looking at the wiring diagram
for
something I missed.
There are two pins labled SWITCHED POWER IN (11 and M) and two pins
labeled
SWITCHED POWER OUT (12 and N). The wiring diagram shows them all
connected
together. My thought was that these were to power up an external CDI or
something. So I hooked two power wires up to the SW POWER IN pins and
then
turned on the master. Immediately the radio came on! The radio now
works but
the ON/OFF switch on the front of the unit doesn't control the power any
more.
(I don't have anything connected to the SW POWER OUT right now.)
Has anyone wired a KX155 and can tell me what these Switched Power pins
are for
and how they get wired? I don't want to go much further for fear of
smoking
something.
Matthew
913.706.3087 (cell)
matthew at n523rv.com
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Charlie Burton" <notrubce(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Fire Indication Probe |
I'm looking for a probe to put inside the cowl that will detect a fire and set
off an alarm. I'm installing a remote fire extinguisher system and would like
something to indicate a fire before the red hot firewall or leaking smoke does.
Charlie Burton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matthew Brandes <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | RE: KX-155 Power connections help! |
Mike (and list),
Thanks for the email. I decided after sending my email to just do what the
wiring diagram says and tie all four of those SWITCHED connections together...
and it worked!
The only thing I can think of is that the switched OUT pins are controlled by
the on/off switch at the faceplate and are fed from the 14v power in pins (14
and R). The switched IN pins must feed power to the display. (Which is why my
display worked when I put power on them directly from the bus.) It also shows
that you can wire a connection OUT to the CDI, so I have that wired to pin 41
on my 209A indicator but haven't hooked it up yet to test.
Sure seems like an odd way to power the display! This was my last piece of
avionics to wire, so after I test the transmit on the radio tomorrow, I'll be
done with avionics wiring.... on to engine monitor wiring.
Matthew
RV-9A Avionics!
www.n523rv.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
Hi,
My fuel pumps came with what look like brass nuts
and a split lock washer. These are used to hold
on the ring terminals.
I've read that these split lock washers are not
recommended in an aviation application. I would
like to replace these with a standard flat washer
and a nyloc nut. Does this seem like a good idea?
Photo here:
http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20050814081622711_1_original.JPG
Thanks for any feedback.
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
I am considering installing a EFIS-D10A (dynonavionics.com) as a backup in
certified aircraft.
Has anyone had any experience with this particular unit, its reliability
etc. for IFR?
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | more than 1 audio into intercom aux |
Hi all,
I was wondering, can I feed more than one audio signal from different
sources into the aux input of a PS Engineering intercom? (no isolation
between sources necessary?)
All (2 or 3) sources will be mono.
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dynon's D10A |
I've been flying behind an EFIS-D10 (not the A model). I do fly IFR with
it, but take note of two important items:
1) Only 16 hours (24 approaches) out of 591 hours using the Dynon were flown
solely by reference to instruments.
2) I have conventional "steam gauges" (airspeed, altitude, VSI) and a
Trutrak Pictorial Pilot to back up the Dynon.
Early on, the EFIS-D10 had slight problems with "the leans." The unit would
indicate a slight bank (~5 degrees) when the wings were level. Dynon
addressed this with a software update and now the unit is as reliable, if
not far more reliable, in attitude indication than any mechanical gyro I've
ever flown behind. I personally don't hesitate to fly IFR with it.
I seriously doubt Dynon will ever encourage anybody to use their EFIS for
IFR. Nor do I. But I do it.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (591 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <rd2(at)evenlink.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon's D10A
>
>
> I am considering installing a EFIS-D10A (dynonavionics.com) as a backup in
> certified aircraft.
> Has anyone had any experience with this particular unit, its reliability
> etc. for IFR?
>
> Rumen
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
In general I used the parts that came with the component unless there
was an obvious incompatibility. I tossed the steel nuts that were on the
brass posts of my contactors and replaced them with brass nuts and brass
internal star washers. I want gas tight connections but I also don't
want to encourage dissimilar metal corrosion. I don't remember what I
did on the steel posts on the fuseblocks but I think I stayed with the
steel nuts which I believe were nickel plated.
My fuel pumps came with hardware like you describe but it was all tin
plated (or solder ?) plated and I used it. The lockwashers were fairly
narrow and more likely to be gas tight than a flat washer.
I think from the archives and the book you will see a preference for
internal star washers and brass or phosphor bronze hardware but again
I'd try not to add another type of metal to the joint if possible.
Ken
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>My fuel pumps came with what look like brass nuts
>and a split lock washer. These are used to hold
>on the ring terminals.
>
>I've read that these split lock washers are not
>recommended in an aviation application. I would
>like to replace these with a standard flat washer
>and a nyloc nut. Does this seem like a good idea?
>
>Photo here:
>
>http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20050814081622711_1_original.JPG
>
>Thanks for any feedback.
>
>Mickey
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Rotax Electrical Help |
8/14/2005
Hello Rotax Experts, A friend of mine wants to buy a Rotax 912 powered S-LSA
(Special- Light Sport Aircraft) powered by a Rotax 912 (xxx) engine. He is
looking to me for guidance and I am very limited in my Rotax knowledge, most
of which I have gained by monitoring a list of Pulsar builders for several
years. My main interest / concern is with the electrical system. I have a
Lockwood catalog and can look at the engine parts diagrams, but am not able
to absorb the implications of it all.
I would appreciate it if someone could provide a brief tutorial on the
electrical inner workings and hidden mechanisms of a typical airplane
powered by a Rotax 912 (xxx) engine. Some of the questions that come to mind
are:
1) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for engine
ignition (spark plugs)?
2) Does the system in 1) above require constant electrical power from a
battery to keep the engine operating?
3) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for
aircraft systems such as avionics and lights?
4) How many amps are available from 3) above?
5) Are there ways of increasing the amperage of 3) above by adding an
additional belt driven alternator?
6) If an additional belt driven alternator is feasible does this also
require some modification to the engine's voltage regulator (I have read
comments that the voltage regulator in this system is a weak point).
Many thanks for all your help and please add any comments you think would be
helpful in addition to answers to the above questions.
OC
PS: As a bonus I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me the
various alphabet soup letters (U, L, S, ?) that appear after the 912 engine
designation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Electrical Help |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello OC
I think to fully answer all of your questions, you simply need to be told where
you should go ;-)
http://www.kodiakbs.com/sdintro.htm
Go to techinfo and download manuals
Go to Service info, register and download all for motor you are interested in.
PLEASE NOTE manual is only a starting point, you need to update it according
Service info. There are many things in manual that absolute need not following,
like how to vent )Prime) the oil system, and use of silicone based heat sink
compound on spark plug threads, and proper spark plugs to use.
You need to go back to mid 90s and update from there.
I will try to answer some of your questions:
1) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for engine
> ignition (spark plugs)?
2 Ducati electronic ignitions. There is trigger and charge coils in the
alternator area. Note especial older installs have problems with wires breaking
that go into modules, the newer have modules mounted on engine and are viabration
shock mounted. Supposedly if you get modules too hot, you can't turn off!
>
> 2) Does the system in 1) above require constant electrical power from a
> battery to keep the engine operating?
The 912 and 912S has both a Mechanical and electric pump to feed the constant
depression type 64 Bing Carbs. Thus they are not fully electrical dependent. The
914 is electrical dependent, it has 2 higher pressure electric fuel pumps. the
reason is when boosting you need to supply pressure to carbs ~ 2 to 5 pounds over
airbox pressure.
>
> 3) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for
> aircraft systems such as avionics and lights?
>
> 4) How many amps are available from 3) above?
>
> 5) Are there ways of increasing the amperage of 3) above by adding an
> additional belt driven alternator?
>
> 6) If an additional belt driven alternator is feasible does this also
> require some modification to the engine's voltage regulator (I have read
> comments that the voltage regulator in this system is a weak point).
This will touch on #3 4 5 +6
The internal alternator is not too powerful. At best for anysort of long life and
reliability keep constant draw to 12 amps or less. THAT IS MAX. It may be rated
for 18 or 20 amps but will not really put that out. If you draw too many amps for
long periods of time, the regulators tend to fail. You can help the regulator out
by blowing ambient air on it, make a box with outlet holes and pliumb in air with
scat tube. supposedly if you darw too many amps coils fail because insulation
gets hurt. Just keep regulator cool, and 10 or 11 amps max and probably you will
be rewarded. As far as more power, you could install Rotax belt driven
alternator, I am not certain but you would best use a seperate regulator and keep
on a second buss. Or just use the larger alternator and not use the internal. I
have a 914 for use in a europa, and the belt driven is not happy to use. i opted
to mount a ND alternator on the vacuume pad. It supposedly rewound and rated at
Rotax pad speeds for some rediculous amount, I am counting on 30 amps, will run
it constant at not more that 20. I am conservative i think. I will have 2
batteries, and run radios and clean on internal, this way I can start with all
on, and it will run second fuel pump which a 914 is dependent on.
I have not heard of anyone using a replacement to the rotax regulator with
outstanding sucess. again if you made the regulator better, you would probably
fry the windings. Best keep the Rotax cool and don't ask too much of it all the
time.
>
>
> PS: As a bonus I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me the
> various alphabet soup letters (U, L, S, ?) that appear after the 912 engine
> designation.
As far as rotax designations, I am not certain exact what UL or F means, but the
UL is Non Certified, and F is Certified. This is needed information when
researching service info as many a time for UL motor they will send you to the
F
engine service document for the full score.
The 912 is rated at max of 80HP. The 912S is a larger displacement, higher
compression and rated max of 100HP. It is normal aspirated. The 914 is essential
a 912, kinda sortta same compression and displacement but has a turbo, it is
rated at 115hp for 5 mins and 100HP continuous.
If you use the S you best get the Heavy Duty starter and slipper clutch. The
Heavy Duty starter will fit on the 914 and newer motors come with it. the 912
will probably take it as well.
This is more than you probably wanted to know. Make sure you study how the dogs
take up engine power pulses, and get the latest on tensions and clearances. If
you get a slipper clutch, look up the latest on that as well. All motors have
dogs, with slipper they have more free play. The slipper is to aid you in event
of prop strike. It is essential locked until you need it.
Good Luck
Ron Parigoris
PS please take this information I provided from one who is not yet flying a 914,
and has little practical experiance on rotax motors. I did talk to many in the
know and read/study all I could find.
Keep in mind any of the Rotax 900 series is closer to a motorcycle engine than
a
traditional aircraft engine. The 914 is 71 cubic inches and pumps out 100HP
continuous and will do that up pretty high, a O-200 is 200 cubic inches and will
do that only at lower density altitudes.
You must be very "IN TUNE" with carburator maintenance and adjustment on the
900s, as well as gearbox maintenance. You need smooth or you will tear up
gearboxes.
Also keep in mind that the 900s are much happier on mogas than 100LL. Research
issues caused by 100LL.
All above said, you can call Lockwood and attend either a group seminar, or a
individual instruction for up to i think 3 people.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Electrical Help |
Far from an expert here, OC, but I'll give you my $0.02 as a Rotax 914
user. I recommend you head over to
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com and pull down the PDF's for the
912, too. The Installation, Maintenance, and Operator's Manuals for
the Rotax engines are all there for the taking and will give you some
data to thumb through.
> 1) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for engine
> ignition (spark plugs)?
The ignition is a 'dual ignition unit of a breakerless, capacitor
discharge design with an integrated generator.' It comes out of the
crate ready to go.
> 2) Does the system in 1) above require constant electrical power from a
> battery to keep the engine operating?
Nope, no external power required (... once you bump the starter).
> 3) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for
> aircraft systems such as avionics and lights?
There's an integrated generator and an external rectifier-regulator
(the Ducati unit) for power. The generator is 14 V/ 20 A... but
that's at 68 degF ambient. I've read that 12 A is about all you're
going to get without cooling worries. However, most of the failures
I've read about were firewall-mounted units inside tight cowls with no
provisions for unit cooling. Take the 12 A number with a block of
salt... but you might want to include some creative ducting.
> 4) How many amps are available from 3) above?
12 A is the user recommended "stay below" number although the 68 degF
curve says you can get 20 A at 5000 RPM (gen is fed by the crank).
> 5) Are there ways of increasing the amperage of 3) above by adding an
> additional belt driven alternator?
Yes, there are mounting provisions on the engine for a belt driven system.
> 6) If an additional belt driven alternator is feasible does this also
> require some modification to the engine's voltage regulator (I have read
> comments that the voltage regulator in this system is a weak point).
No mod's required... the Ducati unit (i.e. - weak point) is only
handling the juice from the internal generator. You'll have to decide
whether you want an internally or externally regulated alternator. I
ain't touching that one... ;-)
> Many thanks for all your help and please add any comments you think would be
> helpful in addition to answers to the above questions.
The Europa list is a good source of indirect Rotax 912/914 info if you
have general operating questions.
> PS: As a bonus I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me the
> various alphabet soup letters (U, L, S, ?) that appear after the 912 engine
> designation.
If it has a UL in the name it isn't certified (perhaps that means
'UltraLight'???). The big difference between the 912 UL and the 912
ULS is more HP (UL is an 79 HP engine whilst ULS is 95 HP). To add
further confusion, there's also a number after all of the letters to
tell you whether it's suitable for fixed pitch (2), constant speed
(3), or fixed pitch convertible to constant speed (4) prop.
HTH!
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
Charlie -
An innovative varieze driver "rolled his own" by stringing a twisted
wire pair throughout the cowl. One wire is connected hot and the
other is connected to ground. When the low temperature (cheap) wire
insulation melts the wires touch and the circuit is completed to
trigger his alarm.
For some reason he's reluctant to test his system in flight... but it
sure seems like it would work fine.
D
---------------------------
On 8/13/05, Charlie Burton wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a probe to put inside the cowl that will detect a fire and set
off an alarm. I'm installing a remote fire extinguisher system and would like
something to indicate a fire before the red hot firewall or leaking smoke does.
> Charlie Burton
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Carter" <dcarter(at)datarecall.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
This sounds like the best, simplest way to go. So, instead of asking for
the "best", "highest temp insulation" wire, what is the "lowest melting
point insulation" cheapo wire?
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Indication Probe
>
> Charlie -
>
> An innovative varieze driver "rolled his own" by stringing a twisted
> wire pair throughout the cowl. One wire is connected hot and the
> other is connected to ground. When the low temperature (cheap) wire
> insulation melts the wires touch and the circuit is completed to
> trigger his alarm.
>
> For some reason he's reluctant to test his system in flight... but it
> sure seems like it would work fine.
>
> D
>
> ---------------------------
> On 8/13/05, Charlie Burton wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm looking for a probe to put inside the cowl that will detect a fire
>> and set off an alarm. I'm installing a remote fire extinguisher system
>> and would like something to indicate a fire before the red hot firewall
>> or leaking smoke does.
>> Charlie Burton
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fire Indication Probe |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
The problem with that "good" approach is that the areas that are most
likely to involve a fire are already hot enough to melt the insulation
in normal operation.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of D
Wysong
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Indication Probe
Charlie -
An innovative varieze driver "rolled his own" by stringing a twisted
wire pair throughout the cowl. One wire is connected hot and the
other is connected to ground. When the low temperature (cheap) wire
insulation melts the wires touch and the circuit is completed to
trigger his alarm.
For some reason he's reluctant to test his system in flight... but it
sure seems like it would work fine.
D
---------------------------
On 8/13/05, Charlie Burton wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a probe to put inside the cowl that will detect a fire
and set off an alarm. I'm installing a remote fire extinguisher system
and would like something to indicate a fire before the red hot firewall
or leaking smoke does.
> Charlie Burton
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Ken -
Does one have to replace the internal star washers after they are used
once? Seems that it would be easy to mash the teeth flat after torquing
the nut & washe once.
Thanks,
John
> I think from the archives and the book you will see a preference for
> internal star washers and brass or phosphor bronze hardware but again
> I'd try not to add another type of metal to the joint if possible.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: more than 1 audio into intercom aux |
Hi to all.
Can someone answer Rumens question.
I need to know too for my PS501!
> I was wondering, can I feed more than one audio signal from different
> sources into the aux input of a PS Engineering intercom? (no isolation
> between sources necessary?)
> All (2 or 3) sources will be mono.
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bernie Berger" <bberger4(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Rotax Electrical Help |
Ah, I have a 40 amp external alternator on my Series III and have seen one
on an XP. One of our builders, in Europe put one in his plane. To do so he
had to do a little relieving of the cowling to make it fit but it wasn't
much. Additionally, there is now a 40 amp alternator that will mount on the
back of the gear box, where the a vacuum pump or a prop governor mounts.
Bernie Berger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pulsar-builders(at)caseyk.org
[mailto:owner-pulsar-builders(at)caseyk.org]On Behalf Of cm.coulter(at)att.net
LIVINGSTON, Kip
Subject: Re: Rotax Electrical Help
OC The Rotax 912 uses a motorcycle alternator. It has 2 coils that produce
power for the
ignition. No battery is needed. Also it has lighting coils 5 I think that
produces 17 amps
at 5500 rpm. There is an add on alternater that uses a belt drive but will
not fit in a Pulsar
cowl so you will not see them used on Pulsars. Also there is a Company that
makes a small Alternator that runs off the air pump drive. I think it puts
out 20+ amps but not sure.
Hope this helps.
Clarke
-------------- Original message from : --------------
> 8/14/2005
>
> Hello Rotax Experts, A friend of mine wants to buy a Rotax 912 powered
S-LSA
> (Special- Light Sport Aircraft) powered by a Rotax 912 (xxx) engine. He is
> looking to me for guidance and I am very limited in my Rotax knowledge,
most
> of which I have gained by monitoring a list of Pulsar builders for several
> years. My main interest / concern is with the electrical system. I have a
> Lockwood catalog and can look at the engine parts diagrams, but am not
able
> to absorb the implications of it all.
>
> I would appreciate it if someone could provide a brief tutorial on the
> electrical inner workings and hidden mechanisms of a typical airplane
> powered by a Rotax 912 (xxx) engine. Some of the questions that come to
mind
> are:
>
> 1) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for
engine
> ignition (spark plugs)?
>
> 2) Does the system in 1) above require constant electrical power from a
> battery to keep the engine operating?
>
> 3) What generates, controls, and distributes the electrical power for
> aircraft systems such as avionics and lights?
>
> 4) How many amps are available from 3) above?
>
> 5) Are there ways of increasing the amperage of 3) above by adding an
> additional belt driven alternator?
>
> 6) If an additional belt driven alternator is feasible does this also
> require some modification to the engine's voltage regulator (I have read
> comments that the voltage regulator in this system is a weak point).
>
> Many thanks for all your help and please add any comments you think would
be
> helpful in addition to answers to the above questions.
>
> OC
>
> PS: As a bonus I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me the
> various alphabet soup letters (U, L, S, ?) that appear after the 912
engine
> designation.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fire Indication Probe |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
In a Velocity pusher, where fire detection is far more important than a
tractor configuration, I took two thermo couples intended for
installation in a water jacket for automotive applications and ran the
wires to the Grand Rapids EFIS. GRT EFIS, set to the engine data
display, shows the temp readout of the two sensors, one each side of the
engine.
Should one go 'hot', it'll trigger the GRT internally set alarm level.
The temp readout between flights are very consistent and comeback down
to a very predictable value after a hard, hot climb. I've not
calibrated them, since the absolute temperature isn't particularly
important--I just want to know if something jumps 50 or 100 degrees, in
which case I will immediately become very focused!
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
> In a Velocity pusher, where fire detection is far more important than a
> tractor configuration...
Just out of curiosity, why is this the case?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
I didn't really consider the issue of dissimilar metals. My
main concern was of the nut coming loose. I guess this is
not much of a problem. I'll just go with what Bosch shipped,
the thin brass nut and a steel lockwasher.
Thanks,
Mickey
Ken wrote:
>
> In general I used the parts that came with the component unless there
> was an obvious incompatibility. I tossed the steel nuts that were on the
> brass posts of my contactors and replaced them with brass nuts and brass
> internal star washers. I want gas tight connections but I also don't
> want to encourage dissimilar metal corrosion. I don't remember what I
> did on the steel posts on the fuseblocks but I think I stayed with the
> steel nuts which I believe were nickel plated.
>
> My fuel pumps came with hardware like you describe but it was all tin
> plated (or solder ?) plated and I used it. The lockwashers were fairly
> narrow and more likely to be gas tight than a flat washer.
>
> I think from the archives and the book you will see a preference for
> internal star washers and brass or phosphor bronze hardware but again
> I'd try not to add another type of metal to the joint if possible.
>
> Ken
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>My fuel pumps came with what look like brass nuts
>>and a split lock washer. These are used to hold
>>on the ring terminals.
>>
>>I've read that these split lock washers are not
>>recommended in an aviation application. I would
>>like to replace these with a standard flat washer
>>and a nyloc nut. Does this seem like a good idea?
>>
>>Photo here:
>>
>>http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20050814081622711_1_original.JPG
>>
>>Thanks for any feedback.
>>
>>Mickey
>>
>>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | Fire Indication Probe |
because you cant see or smell it
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mickey
Coggins
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Indication Probe
> In a Velocity pusher, where fire detection is far more important than a
> tractor configuration...
Just out of curiosity, why is this the case?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fire Indication Probe |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
With a pusher configuration, your tail feathers can be burning off and
you may not know it until something quits or falls off, because it's all
behind you. (I don't have a review mirror on the Velo--but if I did,
it'd be full of Bonanzas and light twins anyhow).
With a tractor, you get a face full of heat and smoke right shortly.
Not good news but certainly an early warning sign, though I suppose
there are event scenarios with a tractor that the initial fire might not
come to your attention immediately, so a detection system still seems
like a good idea. With a fire, every second truly counts!
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Indication Probe
> In a Velocity pusher, where fire detection is far more important than
a
> tractor configuration...
Just out of curiosity, why is this the case?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: more than 1 audio into intercom aux |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
I did it with the Garmin 340 and used a resistor in line on each input
wire. It was a 300 ohm, 1/4W. I had the Transponder (Garmin 330), the AOA
(Proprietary Software Sport Model), the autopilot (TruTrak DFC 250) and
the Dynon D10A. Dynon still has not implemented their audio, but intend to
do so.
The resistor value came from the avionics shop that wired the stack
cables. I did the actual wiring for the aux(unswitched)input pin on the
340.
I would call the PSA Engineering folks and ask for sure, but I'll bet they
say to use a resistor.
Hope this helps.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank & Dorothy <frankvdh(at)xtra.co.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
Whilst this is cheap, I think it is probably not reliable.
The question I have is... What causes the wires to move together once
the insulation is gone? I expect that vibration would probably do it.
Bit is 'probably' good enough?
D Wysong wrote:
>An innovative varieze driver "rolled his own" by stringing a twisted
>wire pair throughout the cowl. One wire is connected hot and the
>other is connected to ground. When the low temperature (cheap) wire
>insulation melts the wires touch and the circuit is completed to
>trigger his alarm.
>
>For some reason he's reluctant to test his system in flight... but it
>sure seems like it would work fine.
>
>D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: more than 1 audio into intercom aux |
John Hi!
> I would call the PSA Engineering folks and ask for sure, but I'll bet they
> say to use a resistor.
>
> Hope this helps.
It does.
Regards
Gerry
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: KX-155 Power connections help! |
> The only thing I can think of is that the switched OUT pins are
> controlled by the on/off switch at the faceplate and are fed from the
> 14v power in pins (14 and R). The switched IN pins must feed
power to
> the display. (Which is why my display worked when I put power on
them
> directly from the bus.)
> Sure seems like an odd way to power the display!
If I understand this correctly, not if you want to be able to dim the
display independently of the auto-dim feature?
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | Re: Dynon's D10A |
Thanks Dan,
this is exactly the kind od response I was looking for.
BTW:
>
I seriously doubt Dynon will ever encourage anybody to use their EFIS for
IFR. Nor do I. But I do it.
>
Similarly, does Garmin encourage anybody to use their panel page (gpsmap
196/296/396) for ifr? ;) But it could save one's hide in case of emergency.
If Dynon is as reliable (MTBF etc.) as the handheld gps', then it proibably
is a better deal @ $2195 than sporty's (also non-certified) electric #
2060A Gyro ($1595). Not saying that sporty's is unreliable, merely noticing
that dynon offers a host of functions vs. very the functions found in
sporty's product.
Or, thinking again, maybe garmin's deal is the best one, considering the
number of functions offered and same ifr/vfr/certification issues.
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | Re: more than 1 audio into intercom aux |
Thanks John.
Gerry, did you receive this too?
On Monday I'll call PS Engineering to discuss this and will post the answer
(if I get one; they have been a bit slow, to put it mildly, to answer emails).
Generally a 5-10 kohm resistor per input would be ok for passive isolation,
if it does not decrease signal too much. The resistor depends on the input
impedance of the intercom aux input and the output of the source/s and the
number of sources. Without getting into detail, I was looking for a quick
and dirty.
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from John Schroeder; Date: 03:27 PM 8/14/2005
-0400)
I did it with the Garmin 340 and used a resistor in line on each input
wire. It was a 300 ohm, 1/4W. I had the Transponder (Garmin 330), the AOA
(Proprietary Software Sport Model), the autopilot (TruTrak DFC 250) and
the Dynon D10A. Dynon still has not implemented their audio, but intend to
do so.
The resistor value came from the avionics shop that wired the stack
cables. I did the actual wiring for the aux(unswitched)input pin on the
340.
I would call the PSA Engineering folks and ask for sure, but I'll bet they
say to use a resistor.
Hope this helps.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John & Amy Eckel" <eckel1(at)comcast.net> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Routing Antenna Leads |
Hello Bob & List,
I'm installing my Garmin panel mounted GPS/Comm (GNC 250-XL) with
Perihelion's RG+142 coax in a tube & fabric aircraft. The two antennas are
about 5' apart. The installation manual says to route the GPS cable 'as far
as possible' away from the Comm cable. Before reading that part I was
inclined to route them right next to each other. Now I don't really know
what to do.
I couldn't find anything on this specific question in the archives. Is
there a minimum distance for good radio performance?
Thanks,
Grant Krueger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lyle Bell <lylebell(at)gmail.com> |
I am helping a friend with radio and intercom installation on an RV 6 and
have run into my first roadbock. I wired the molex edge connector per
installation instructions (at least I think I did!). In my first bench test,
receive audio is fine. The transmitter is connected to a 52 ohm dummy load
through a wattmeter. When I key the radio there is a steady tone in the
headset and no power output. The TX indicator does not come on. I've
double-checked wiring and it looks right. Any ideas?
Thanks, Lyle Bell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fire Indication Probe |
Fire detectors usually operate by detecting the UV radiation given off by a
flame. Only a fire in the cowl will show any UV. The detectors are simple
and easy to get from Allied Electronics, etc., and the additional circuitry
not hard to make. Ideally several of them should cover all areas of
interest.
You could use a video camera--they are so cheap a little airplane could have
a dozen of them for every conceivable task--including fire detection.
Has anybody experimented with home smoke detectors under the cowl?
And finally two words--E Bay. There are several "Flame detectors" for sale
cheap right now. Flame detectors (or "no flame" detectors) are used in some
furnaces, and I think they are UV photoelectric for the most part.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what
to have for dinner."
- James Bovard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lyle Bell <lylebell(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Icom A200 - - figured out my problem |
After sending out my plea for help, I found my problem. It is directly
attributable to crossed wires - - in my head!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | speedy11(at)AOL.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Circuit Breakers ? |
Bob,
Any chance of bringing this closer to the front burner? I think using the electronic
CB as you mentioned is interesting - and I believe others find it interesting
also.
Implementing the latest technology and concepts is what drives custom aircraft
building. Having your take on this CB would be valuable information.
Stan Sutterfield
>Bob & All
>
>All this talk about the best alternator protection and nobody has
>mentioned the new electronic circuit breakers with high/low voltage
>cutout (16 & 10 volts) complete with warning light etc. Sounds like
>crowbar over voltage protection in miniature. Maybe these pricey ($77)
>items are the best way to protect my avionics stack! What say you, all I
>know is what I see in the Aircraft Spruce catalog.
I have a couple of these things to evaluate . . . but they're
pretty far back on the stove. I think they're a solid state
relay with some smarts for reacting to abnormal voltages.
I suspect they're a series switch that simply opens when
voltages get out of range.
The ones I have are fitted with miniature switches for
controls. If you used one of these for an alternator field
switch, they would protect the whole airplane . . . assuming
we're comfortable with their switching dynamics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
I once miswired that Molex plug ( on my own radio too) by getting confused,
part way through the job after a meal break, as to whether each
number/letter legend referred to the pin on its right or its left!
Unfortunately, I got the power pins transposed in that process and managed
to vaporise a pcb track inside the radio. A simple fix as it turned out but
one that took a while to fault find.
Sounds a little like your PTT wiring is not grounding the PTT pin on the
radio, hence you aren't actually keying the transmitter. Even if your mic
wiring were faulty, grounding a functioning PTT pin should produce a healthy
carrier signal into the dummy load. Dont know about that tone you report
though. Might be worth checking out that dummy load/wattmeter combination
in case either is faulty and presenting too high a VSWR to the transmitter,
causing it to shut itself off t protect its final amplifier stages.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle Bell" <lylebell(at)gmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icom A200
>
> I am helping a friend with radio and intercom installation on an RV 6 and
> have run into my first roadbock. I wired the molex edge connector per
> installation instructions (at least I think I did!). In my first bench
> test,
> receive audio is fine. The transmitter is connected to a 52 ohm dummy load
> through a wattmeter. When I key the radio there is a steady tone in the
> headset and no power output. The TX indicator does not come on. I've
> double-checked wiring and it looks right. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks, Lyle Bell
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Fire Indication Probe |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Eric,
UV or Infra Red ?
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
M. Jones
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fire Indication Probe
Fire detectors usually operate by detecting the UV radiation given off
by a
flame. Only a fire in the cowl will show any UV. The detectors are
simple
and easy to get from Allied Electronics, etc., and the additional
circuitry
not hard to make. Ideally several of them should cover all areas of
interest.
You could use a video camera--they are so cheap a little airplane could
have
a dozen of them for every conceivable task--including fire detection.
Has anybody experimented with home smoke detectors under the cowl?
And finally two words--E Bay. There are several "Flame detectors" for
sale
cheap right now. Flame detectors (or "no flame" detectors) are used in
some
furnaces, and I think they are UV photoelectric for the most part.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on
what
to have for dinner."
- James Bovard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
How about a sturdy cotton thread holding open a spring-loaded NC switch? Cotton
burns through, switch closes. Verify by a secondary reading of cowl air temp
since thread might get oil-soaked, weakened and eventually fail from age...
Maybe an IR lipstick camera and small monitor to keep a constant eye on things
inside that dark cowling?
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fire Indication Probe
In a Velocity pusher, where fire detection is far more important than a
tractor configuration, I took two thermo couples intended for
installation in a water jacket for automotive applications and ran the
wires to the Grand Rapids EFIS. GRT EFIS, set to the engine data
display, shows the temp readout of the two sensors, one each side of the
engine.
Should one go 'hot', it'll trigger the GRT internally set alarm level.
The temp readout between flights are very consistent and comeback down
to a very predictable value after a hard, hot climb. I've not
calibrated them, since the absolute temperature isn't particularly
important--I just want to know if something jumps 50 or 100 degrees, in
which case I will immediately become very focused!
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com> |
I'll start with humble apologies to all who have lost patience with this
topic. For those of us still having an interest in any resolution which may
be found I would like to ask the following.
Given that many of us would like to use IR alternators for cost and
convenience reasons the issue becomes one of how we can protect our avionics
with a high degree of certainty.
1) Until a few days ago when Ken Lehman wrote about "an OVM module of some
kind protecting the supply to that $15k radio rack that you mentioned." I
hadn't seen anyone mention this as a solution, although I have wondered
about it myself. Why couldn't this prove a good way to save our wallets
leaving the alternator to be shut down manually?
2) Load dump (back emf ?) seems to be the alternator killer when crowbared
under load. Bob wrote "Actually, the neatest way (lowest parts count) to
run the
IR alternator would be to add a diode in series with the alternator's
output and crowbar the alternator itself to ground without loading the
ship's bus. The lights wouldn't even flicker. Problem is that adding the
diode tosses off .5 to 1 volt of output.". Why couldn't this be reduced to
.2v or thereabouts with a Schottky thus making this approach feasable?
These are probably naive questions but the debate so far I have found very
valuable indeed. The education afforded by the constructive contributors
has far outweighed the unsatsfactorily negative contributions from the
cabbage tossers. Kudos to those who disagree politely and in a reasoned and
constructive manner.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still!
La Mesa, CA. (next to San Diego)
--
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin And Ann Klinefelter <kevann(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Rotax Electrical Help |
"Additionally, there is now a 40 amp alternator that will mount on the
back of the gear box, where the a vacuum pump or a prop governor mounts."
>Any idea where I can get such an alternator?
>
>
Kevin
Europa with a 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Fire Indication Probe |
Eric,
can you suggest a small display for the videocam ? - cameras and small and
cheap, but I heven't been able to come up with a convenient display
(preferably to fit into a standard panel opening).
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Eric M. Jones; Date: 08:25 PM 8/14/2005
-0400)
Fire detectors usually operate by detecting the UV radiation given off by a
flame. Only a fire in the cowl will show any UV. The detectors are simple
and easy to get from Allied Electronics, etc., and the additional circuitry
not hard to make. Ideally several of them should cover all areas of
interest.
You could use a video camera--they are so cheap a little airplane could have
a dozen of them for every conceivable task--including fire detection.
Has anybody experimented with home smoke detectors under the cowl?
And finally two words--E Bay. There are several "Flame detectors" for sale
cheap right now. Flame detectors (or "no flame" detectors) are used in some
furnaces, and I think they are UV photoelectric for the most part.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what
to have for dinner."
- James Bovard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com.revisited |
| Subject: | More than 1 audio source into the Intercom Music Input |
-
revisited
I talked to PS Engineering about the solution.
The PS Engineering PS 1000 II has an input impedance of 47 kOhm (music
input) (as probably do most intercoms, at least in that range). So, it is
not likely that the intercom would load the output of any source, because
it isn't likely that the source would have an output impedance of 47 kohm
or higher.
But in order for the audio sources not to affect ea. other, PS Eng.
suggested to add isolation resistors to ea. source. We are basically
building a signal mixer. They said I could start with 500 ohm per source
(in series) and increase until signal starts to attenuate (or until signal
is not unacceptably attenuated).
For practical purposes, I will be adding the necessary number of 3.5mm
receptacles (equaling the number of needed inputs) with 1 kOhm resistors in
series in ea. signal path and will test the intercom with all available
signal sources active and connected to the inputs. That way the sources
will have isolation of 2 kohm between ea. other. I might actually do the
test with 10 kohm pots in each path initially to determine which is the
highest resistance that does not attenuate the audio of the source, then
replacing the pots with resistors.
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: KX-155 Power connections help! |
I haven't figured out how to dim the display yet... the install manual
doesn't show a pin for dimming.. but the document that bob has on his site
shows that pin 24 is used for 14v light dimming.... so I'm kinda confused
still. I'd be concerned about dimming this circuit since it runs power out
to the CDI. At least the radio works at this point!
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Wiring)
#90569
http://www.n523rv.com
EAA Chapter 1329 President
EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
>
> The only thing I can think of is that the switched OUT pins are
> controlled by the on/off switch at the faceplate and are fed from the
> 14v power in pins (14 and R). The switched IN pins must feed
power to
> the display. (Which is why my display worked when I put power on
them
> directly from the bus.)
> Sure seems like an odd way to power the display!
If I understand this correctly, not if you want to be able to dim the
display independently of the auto-dim feature?
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Fire Indication Probe |
>Eric,
>UV or Infra Red ?
>Regards, George
George,
There are advantages and disadvantages to the various approaches.
UV--Clearly a step function. Flames, sparks and various energetic phenomena
emit UV. In a normally functioning engine, zero UV is emitted even if it
melts. The Hamamatsu UV Trons are insensitive to sunlight without any
filtering (remarkable). These are very common and inexpensive detectors. Can
be triggered by coronas and arc welders....but hey!....nothing's free.
Google "Hamamatsu UV Tron".
Visible--The engine exhaust gets brighter, but that's about it in the dark.
The problems with visible fire alarms is that flying west at sunset might
trigger photoelectric alarms. so you have to shield them carefully. Easy to
use but lots of technical issues to resolve.
IR--Similar to visible but easier to use. Flames produce much more IR than
just hot pipes. Filters are used to look at only certain wavelengths. Makers
if IR Flame detectors seem to be secretive about spectral characteristics.
Some fire situations seem to demand certain spectral sensitivities.
(Things-you-never-knew note: They sell fireproof IR/UV fire detectors, also
detectors that are heated to keep them free from ice.)
Combo units--Many units take the advantages of IR and UV and make
combination IR/UV units.
Hamamatsu UV Trons are so good and so cheap that almost all brand-name flame
detectors are just Hamamatsus-in-a-box.
I like the cotton string on Microswitch idea. Super-Glue vaporizes at a
certain temperature, so you could craft a temp alarm with some glue and a
microswitch. All the technology from old water sprinklers would probably
work too.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Hey, it ain't rocket surgery!"
--anonymous
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sgettings(at)cfl.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Fire Indication Probe |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:32 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fire Indication Probe
Jones"
>
Braly"
>
>
> >Eric,
> >UV or Infra Red ?
> >Regards, George
>
> George,
>
> There are advantages and disadvantages to the
various approaches.
>
> UV--Clearly a step function. Flames, sparks and
various energetic
> phenomena
> emit UV. In a normally functioning engine, zero UV
is emitted even
> if it
> melts. The Hamamatsu UV Trons are insensitive to
sunlight without
> any
> filtering (remarkable). These are very common and
inexpensive
> detectors. Can
> be triggered by coronas and arc welders....but
hey!....nothing's
> free.
> Google "Hamamatsu UV Tron".
>
> Visible--The engine exhaust gets brighter, but
that's about it in
> the dark.
> The problems with visible fire alarms is that
flying west at sunset
> might
> trigger photoelectric alarms. so you have to
shield them carefully.
> Easy to
> use but lots of technical issues to resolve.
>
> IR--Similar to visible but easier to use. Flames
produce much more
> IR than
> just hot pipes. Filters are used to look at only
certain
> wavelengths. Makers
> if IR Flame detectors seem to be secretive about
spectral
> characteristics.
> Some fire situations seem to demand certain
spectral sensitivities.
> (Things-you-never-knew note: They sell fireproof
IR/UV fire
> detectors, also
> detectors that are heated to keep them free from ice.)
>
> Combo units--Many units take the advantages of IR
and UV and make
> combination IR/UV units.
>
> Hamamatsu UV Trons are so good and so cheap that
almost all brand-
> name flame
> detectors are just Hamamatsus-in-a-box.
>
> I like the cotton string on Microswitch idea.
Super-Glue vaporizes
> at a
> certain temperature, so you could craft a temp
alarm with some glue
> and a
> microswitch. All the technology from old water
sprinklers would
> probably
> work too.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> (508) 764-2072
>
> "Hey, it ain't rocket surgery!"
> --anonymous
>
>
This is my first post, so hopefully I'll get it right.
Isn't another simple option a thermal overload relay
(such as a bimetallic or solid state), thermistor,
or thermal fuse? Radio shack has thermal fuses of
various temperatures for less than $2. A fused
circuit would have to turn on a light or other
warning device when it became open, but this is also
pretty simple.
Scott Gettings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Fire Indication Probe |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Scott,
If your subsequent posts are as good as your first, I think you've
already gotten the hang of it.
The downside of the detectors, alarm on a string, thermal fuse, et al,
is they are on/off, 0/1. No way of trending or knowing if it's a false
alarm...just that you got an alarm. Can you say 'idiot lights' that was
so popular in cars of yesteryear. No information, just an alert.
On the other hand, a temp readout allows you to trend a problem, assess
the magnitude of it and still be given an alarm via the preset alarm
point. Simple and cheap...though Eric raises important points arguing
for some alternative detection technology, even if they don't give rate
information.
Chuck
Scott Gettings wrote...
This is my first post, so hopefully I'll get it right.
Isn't another simple option a thermal overload relay
(such as a bimetallic or solid state), thermistor,
or thermal fuse? Radio shack has thermal fuses of
various temperatures for less than $2. A fused
circuit would have to turn on a light or other
warning device when it became open, but this is also
pretty simple.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
>This is my first post, so hopefully I'll get it right.
Scott, welcome to the fray.
>Isn't another simple option a thermal overload relay
>(such as a bimetallic or solid state), thermistor,
>or thermal fuse? Radio shack has thermal fuses of
>various temperatures for less than $2. A fused
>circuit would have to turn on a light or other
>warning device when it became open, but this is also
>pretty simple. Scott Gettings
Scott, you are inferring that high temps must equal a fire. That may or may
not be so. Does a small fire equal very high temps--especially where you
have the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Would hot exhaust pipes trigger an
overtemp sensor quicker than a small fuel-leak fire? Almost certainly.
A couple UV Trons and the Space Shuttle Challenger could have brought
Christa McAuliffe back to teach school. But it would have required ten
zillion thermal detectors to sense that errant flame.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be
smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
- E.Stobblehouse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
> A couple UV Trons and the Space Shuttle Challenger could have brought
> Christa McAuliffe back to teach school. But it would have required ten
> zillion thermal detectors to sense that errant flame.
I like the way they did it on SpaceShipOne - winding all that wire
around the casing, and if any burns through, it cuts off the NO2.
Could have worked on the shuttle SRBs, I think. Of course, there
is no shutting those things off, but I guess they could have "ejected"
them.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
| From: | "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)fdic.gov> |
If you are going to have your fuel pumps in your engine compartment, I
would suggest you use an all-metal self locking nut instead of a nyloc
nut. The heat from the engine compartment may weaken or melt the nylon
in the nyloc nut and allow it to loosen. The self locking nuts in my
engine compartment are all metal. If you have a self locking nut, a
flat washer should be sufficient.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Subject: SPAM::AeroElectric-List: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts
Hi,
My fuel pumps came with what look like brass nuts
and a split lock washer. These are used to hold
on the ring terminals.
I've read that these split lock washers are not
recommended in an aviation application. I would
like to replace these with a standard flat washer
and a nyloc nut. Does this seem like a good idea?
Photo here:
http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20050814081622711_1_original.JPG
Thanks for any feedback.
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
| From: | "Craig P. Steffen" <craig(at)craigsteffen.net> |
> If you are going to have your fuel pumps in your engine compartment, I
> would suggest you use an all-metal self locking nut instead of a nyloc
> nut. The heat from the engine compartment may weaken or melt the nylon
> in the nyloc nut and allow it to loosen. The self locking nuts in my
> engine compartment are all metal. If you have a self locking nut, a
> flat washer should be sufficient.
I don't know if it's a codified regulation, but my understanding is
that the FAA considers nylon locknuts forward of the firewall a big
no-no. All-metal locknuts (or castle nuts) ONLY in the engine
compartment.
--
craig(at)craigsteffen.net
public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fire Indication Probe |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
On a pusher (at least), maybe it would be worth looking at the difference
between inlet air and the outlet air temperature. Any more than a certain
delta indicates something bad is going on. An easy microcontroller
project. You might have to include an offset table for powersetting to
make it really good. It might not be possible to detect a small fire
while at low powersetting (in a long descent for instance) without it.
Other information about engine/installation health could be garnered from
comparing inlet temp vs outlet temp too - a way to detect a baffle leak
would show up as an extraordinarily low delta-T. This idea is probably
too complex, but a lot would be learned from setting it up and looking at
the data.
One good thing about pushers is that the natural airflow typically pulls
hot gasses away from structural and soft pink stuff. It might be tougher
to detect, but it's probably somewhat less likely to hurt you. A number
of pushers have suffered in flight fires, and I think most of them have
landed with no injury to anyone aboard. Further, pushers have suffered a
variety of leaks of oil and fuel that most assuredly would have caused a
fire on a conventional plane, but only 'inconvenience' (engine out) on the
pusher. An engine compartment oil or fuel leak in an RV is really bad.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
I have flown behind the D-10 and find it to be better and more reliable
then steam gauges. On one flight I had a vacuum pump failure and was
left with the Dynon or the turn and bank. I used the Dynon for the ILS
approach instead of the certified turn and bank. The problem you will
have is getting the field approval to install that unit in a certified
airplane. It is possible, but I don't think it will be easy. I do know
that the "Letter Groups" are taking a hard look at some of these units
as a backup for certified airplanes.
Mike Larkin
Lancair Legacy
TS-11
Kitfox 4
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rd2(at)evenlink.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon's D10A
Thanks Dan,
this is exactly the kind od response I was looking for.
BTW:
>
I seriously doubt Dynon will ever encourage anybody to use their EFIS
for
IFR. Nor do I. But I do it.
>
Similarly, does Garmin encourage anybody to use their panel page (gpsmap
196/296/396) for ifr? ;) But it could save one's hide in case of
emergency.
If Dynon is as reliable (MTBF etc.) as the handheld gps', then it
proibably
is a better deal @ $2195 than sporty's (also non-certified) electric #
2060A Gyro ($1595). Not saying that sporty's is unreliable, merely
noticing
that dynon offers a host of functions vs. very the functions found in
sporty's product.
Or, thinking again, maybe garmin's deal is the best one, considering the
number of functions offered and same ifr/vfr/certification issues.
Rumen
--
--
8/15/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Forbes" <rwforbes(at)slic.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
Folks, check your regs. No nylon locking nuts are to be used in the engine
compartment.
RWF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
Subject: RE: SPAM::AeroElectric-List: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts
>
>
> If you are going to have your fuel pumps in your engine compartment, I
> would suggest you use an all-metal self locking nut instead of a nyloc
> nut. The heat from the engine compartment may weaken or melt the nylon
> in the nyloc nut and allow it to loosen. The self locking nuts in my
> engine compartment are all metal. If you have a self locking nut, a
> flat washer should be sufficient.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Mickey Coggins
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: SPAM::AeroElectric-List: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> My fuel pumps came with what look like brass nuts
> and a split lock washer. These are used to hold
> on the ring terminals.
>
> I've read that these split lock washers are not
> recommended in an aviation application. I would
> like to replace these with a standard flat washer
> and a nyloc nut. Does this seem like a good idea?
>
> Photo here:
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/images/articles/20050814081622711_1_original.JPG
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> Mickey
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
> --
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
>
> Folks, check your regs. No nylon locking nuts are to be used in the
> engine
> compartment.
>
> RWF
Robert,
Point us to the specific reg and we will check it.
Obviously, from a practical viewpoint there is a temperature limit for the
nylon lock nuts. I don't recall that limit right now, but most of the engine
compartment is below that limit. Clearly, exhaust systems or parts near it
should have all metal locknuts.
Alex Peterson
RV6A N66AP 654 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Split washers vs. Nyloc nuts |
Sorry John but I don't really know.
It seems to me that there would be enough spring in the metal that it
could be used again if necessary but it would be preferable to use a new
one to also make sure it was clean.
Ken
John Schroeder wrote:
>
>Ken -
>
>Does one have to replace the internal star washers after they are used
>once? Seems that it would be easy to mash the teeth flat after torquing
>the nut & washe once.
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>>I think from the archives and the book you will see a preference for
>>internal star washers and brass or phosphor bronze hardware but again
>>I'd try not to add another type of metal to the joint if possible.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Small Video Display (was Fire Indication Probe_ |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
John -
What is a fair price for one of these and where is a source?
Many thanks,
John
> wrote:
> Here is a website for a product used to digitally record inflight video
> from 4 onboard lipstick cameras in our Red Star aircraft.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts. |
Hi Rob
Someone else originally posted this link to Jim Weir's site where he
uses one or more crowbar OVMs to pop the fuse(s) to the avionics. I
think this is reasonable for VFR operations. It is not useful for those
of us with electric dependant engines.
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0109/KP0109.htm
You might want a handheld VHF and GPS though as then you lose main
battery power to the avionics. You could use CB's and reset them after
killing the alternator but I hate relying on multi-step manual
procedures when under stress.
On my machine I did not use battery contactors but all the non engine
loads do route through a contactor to a fuse block. An OVM could also be
wired to trip that contactor and protect the avionics. That presents a
single point of failure for all avionics power though. No main battery
power to the avionics during a trip is the problem with these methods so
it is not a great solution for IFR where you want uninterupted power. It
might have merit for expensive devices that have internal battery
backups and warnings though.
Ken
Rob W M Shipley wrote:
>
>I'll start with humble apologies to all who have lost patience with this
>topic. For those of us still having an interest in any resolution which may
>be found I would like to ask the following.
>
>Given that many of us would like to use IR alternators for cost and
>convenience reasons the issue becomes one of how we can protect our avionics
>with a high degree of certainty.
>1) Until a few days ago when Ken Lehman wrote about "an OVM module of some
>kind protecting the supply to that $15k radio rack that you mentioned." I
>hadn't seen anyone mention this as a solution, although I have wondered
>about it myself. Why couldn't this prove a good way to save our wallets
>leaving the alternator to be shut down manually?
>2) Load dump (back emf ?) seems to be the alternator killer when crowbared
>under load. Bob wrote "Actually, the neatest way (lowest parts count) to
>run the
>
>
snip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Small Video Display (was Fire Indication |
Probe_
John,
Thanks for the link to this PVR. What kind of combiner are
you using? That seems like the hard part...
Thanks,
Mickey
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> Here is a website for a product used to digitally record inflight video
> from 4 onboard lipstick cameras in our Red Star aircraft. The four
> inputs are directed through a combiner into the 40gb storage unit. It
> takes the high g's and shock forces and captures entire flight data
> through plenty of imagery. It includes a touch-screen monitor. You can
> view all four cams or select just one.
>
> It may meet the requirement.
> <http://www.dbciglobalsource.com/PVR%20380.htm>
> John Cox
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Gray <dgra1233(at)bigpond.net.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Small Video Display (was Fire Indication |
Probe_
Dave Morris \"BigD\" Indication Probe_ wrote:
>
> I just bought a Lilliput 8" VGA display that is designed for the burgeoning
> SUV kiddie movie market. (Soapbox) I think we will be seeing more and more
> adults crashing their SUVs into each other because they were watching the
> "kiddie movies" while driving. (/Soapbox)
How many NITs (Cd per square metre) in brightness do these displays have?
To be sunlight readable I expect 450-500 minimum.
Doug Gray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tomcostanza(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Heated pitot (newbie to the group) |
1.25 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO
Hi all,
I have the opportunity to purchase a 24v heated pitot at a very reasonable
price. Has anyone converted one of these to 12V? Has anyone used a 24v unit as-is
with a 12V system? I'm not going to use it in ifr icing conditions, but I
have been in a situation where dew in the pitot froze at altitude, and made landing
very exciting!
Thanks
-Tom
Hi all,
I have the opportunity to purchase a 24v heated pitot at a very reasonable
price. Has anyone converted one of these to 12V? Has anyone used a 24v unit as-is
with a 12V system? I'm not going to use it inifr icing conditions, butI have
been ina situation where dew in the pitot froze at altitude, and made landing
very exciting!
Thanks
-Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> Indication Probe_ |
| Subject: | Re: Small Video Display (was Fire |
Indication Probe_
I don't know the specs. I only know that they are putting them in cars,
and in my side-by-side comparisons, it wasn't as bright as my Sony Vaio
laptop display.
Dave Morris
At 06:40 AM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>Dave Morris \"BigD\" Indication Probe_ wrote:
> Indication Probe_
> >
> > I just bought a Lilliput 8" VGA display that is designed for the
> burgeoning
> > SUV kiddie movie market. (Soapbox) I think we will be seeing more and
> more
> > adults crashing their SUVs into each other because they were watching the
> > "kiddie movies" while driving. (/Soapbox)
>
>
>How many NITs (Cd per square metre) in brightness do these displays have?
>To be sunlight readable I expect 450-500 minimum.
>Doug Gray
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot |
>I have the opportunity to purchase a 24v heated pitot at a very reasonable
>price. Has anyone converted one of these to 12V? Has anyone used a 24v unit
>as-is
>with a 12V system? I'm not going to use it in ifr icing conditions, but I
>have been in a situation where dew in the pitot froze at altitude, and made
>landing
>very exciting!
> Thanks
> -Tom
Welcome Tom,
Let's say the 24V pitot tube draws 12A. That means that the resistance
should be 2 ohms and the power 288 W. If you run this at 12 V, the current
draw will be only 6A and the power 72W. If it were my 12V airplane, and I
planned no intentional suicidal flights into icing conditions, I'd do it.
On the other hand the pitot might be set up with two heaters in series.
(I've seen this). If so, you can change it to parallel. You can replace the
24V heaters with 12V heaters on some units too.
For several years I've been New-England-Ice-Storm testing a thermostatic
pitot tube for my Glastar that operates at 36W max. One of the odd
characteristics is that it heats up only to 30 degC, so it doesn't even get
to body temperature. When there is no need for heat, it draws only about 3W
(~250 mA). It's on my website if you're interested.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/thermopitot.pdf
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem...."
-Thomas Szasz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jsto1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Small Video Display NITS |
FYI, the LCD brightness in NITs probably should be in the 700 range for
sunlight viewing. An IPAQ PDA has about 1000 NITs. My PCFlight Systems
MFD is 1500 NITs and has no problems in bright FL sunlight.
Jim Stone
Jabiru J450
Clearwater FL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD"
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Small Video Display (was Fire
Indication Probe_
--> Indication Probe_
I don't know the specs. I only know that they are putting them in cars,
and in my side-by-side comparisons, it wasn't as bright as my Sony Vaio
laptop display.
Dave Morris
At 06:40 AM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
>-->
>
>
>Dave Morris \"BigD\" Indication Probe_ wrote:
> Indication Probe_
> >
> > I just bought a Lilliput 8" VGA display that is designed for the
> burgeoning
> > SUV kiddie movie market. (Soapbox) I think we will be seeing more
> > and
> more
> > adults crashing their SUVs into each other because they were
> > watching the "kiddie movies" while driving. (/Soapbox)
>
>
>How many NITs (Cd per square metre) in brightness do these displays
>have? To be sunlight readable I expect 450-500 minimum. Doug Gray
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Small Video Display (was Fire Indication Probe_ |
| From: | "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
USB camera fed to a typical USB 2.0 combiner.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Small Video Display (was Fire
Indication Probe_
John,
Thanks for the link to this PVR. What kind of combiner are
you using? That seems like the hard part...
Thanks,
Mickey
John W. Cox wrote:
>
> Here is a website for a product used to digitally record inflight
video
> from 4 onboard lipstick cameras in our Red Star aircraft. The four
> inputs are directed through a combiner into the 40gb storage unit. It
> takes the high g's and shock forces and captures entire flight data
> through plenty of imagery. It includes a touch-screen monitor. You
can
> view all four cams or select just one.
>
> It may meet the requirement.
> <http://www.dbciglobalsource.com/PVR%20380.htm>
> John Cox
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Routing Antenna Leads |
>
>Hello Bob & List,
>
>I'm installing my Garmin panel mounted GPS/Comm (GNC 250-XL) with
>Perihelion's RG+142 coax in a tube & fabric aircraft. The two antennas are
>about 5' apart. The installation manual says to route the GPS cable 'as far
>as possible' away from the Comm cable. Before reading that part I was
>inclined to route them right next to each other. Now I don't really know
>what to do.
>
>I couldn't find anything on this specific question in the archives. Is
>there a minimum distance for good radio performance?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant Krueger
If they're both modern coax (RG400 or RG142) you can
run them right together with any wires in any system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Advanced Aircraft Antenna Vs Bob Archer. |
Hello Group:
I'm looking for recommendations on the COM, NAV and Transponder antenna's
made by Advanced Aircraft compared to Bob Archer designs when used in a composite
aircraft.
Anyone with real life experience or opinion?
Thanks in advance.
Brian Skelly
Texas
Europa # A276 TriGear
See My build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Alternator Question |
Hi,
I've got a brand-new ND alternator, and when I
turn the pulley, I feel a bit of resistance
from time to time. It's the only alternator I've
got, so I'm not sure if this is normal or not.
It seems like it should turn very smoothly, with
only bearing friction.
Thanks for any hints.
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator Question |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
And resistance from te bearing seal at the front...this can sqweak a
little when you fie=rst turn it.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Question
-->
Hi,
I've got a brand-new ND alternator, and when I turn the pulley, I feel a
bit of resistance from time to time. It's the only alternator I've got,
so I'm not sure if this is normal or not.
It seems like it should turn very smoothly, with only bearing friction.
Thanks for any hints.
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | Advanced Aircraft Antenna Vs Bob Archer. |
I don't have any experience in that field but I can sell you an Archer Com
antenna that I was going to mount in the wingtip. I since decided that I
will use a belly whip instead. Good price too.
Franz
RV7A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Advanced Aircraft Antenna Vs Bob Archer.
Hello Group:
I'm looking for recommendations on the COM, NAV and Transponder antenna's
made by Advanced Aircraft compared to Bob Archer designs when used in a
composite
aircraft.
Anyone with real life experience or opinion?
Thanks in advance.
Brian Skelly
Texas
Europa # A276 TriGear
See My build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
--
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ivorphillips" <ivor(at)ivorphillips.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Question |
I have Two ND alternators 40 amp/60 amp, Both are totally smooth in every
direction,
A strip and check is in order!
Ivor Phillips
XS486 London UK
CM Installed, rudder cables complete,
undercarriage fitted brakes working
flap tube fitted
wing lift pins fitted,tiebar fitted instrument
panel being finalised,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Question
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I've got a brand-new ND alternator, and when I
> turn the pulley, I feel a bit of resistance
> from time to time. It's the only alternator I've
> got, so I'm not sure if this is normal or not.
>
> It seems like it should turn very smoothly, with
> only bearing friction.
>
> Thanks for any hints.
>
> Mickey
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Small Video Display (was Fire Indication Probe_ |
On 16 Aug 2005, at 08:46, Dave Morris BigD Indication Probe_ wrote:
> Indication Probe_
>
> I don't know the specs. I only know that they are putting them in
> cars,
> and in my side-by-side comparisons, it wasn't as bright as my Sony
> Vaio
> laptop display.
>
I'm betting those cars don't have bubble canopys though, so the
displays wouldn't need to be as bright as you would need in an RV.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Question |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
By "time to time," do you mean that it offers resistance at particular
points in rotation of the shaft? It could be a number of things.. A bent
shaft. Brush contact area has excessive runout, or roughness. Bad
bearing.. Junk floating around in the unit. Maybe the two halves aren't
mated properly (magnifying a runout problem). Maybe the fan is grossly
out of round and contacting the housing in some places.
It could be that the unit just needs a little break-in turning, and after
100 revs it would be fine.
Alternators aren't difficult to disassemble (or reassemble), so a teardown
might be the way to go.
Let us know what you find..
Thanks,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I've got a brand-new ND alternator, and when I
> turn the pulley, I feel a bit of resistance
> from time to time. It's the only alternator I've
> got, so I'm not sure if this is normal or not.
>
> It seems like it should turn very smoothly, with
> only bearing friction.
>
> Thanks for any hints.
>
> Mickey
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More than 1 audio source into the Intercom Music |
Input -
Something to think about...
"The PS Engineering PS 1000 II has an input impedance of 47 kOhm (music
input)..."
Another thing that the music input typically has is some sort of "muting"
function, either partial, or full. The way this muting works, when the COM
input is active, the volume on the music input is lowered. Which would
result in the volume of the alarms also being lowered during COM
transmissions.
What I am considering doing is "mixing" all of my alarm outputs with the COM
output, and feeding them into the COM input, so there would be no muting. I
would then use the music input as a music input.
I'm considering building one of Bob's Audio Isolation Amps to do the mixing,
but if anyone knows of a reasonably priced "store-bought" unit I would
appreciate hearing about it...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Vern W. wrote:
>
> >
> > My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it was
> >Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite it. It
> >will not power up by itself.
> > So what I have sort of settled on is the Z-13 plus the Z-30 additional
> >battery (very small, say 4 amp) which does three things: It gives the SD-8
> >something to lean on to get it started if need be, the small additional
> >battery can be use to keep (full voltage) power on my Lightspeed ignition
> >when starting, and if both the main alternator and the primary battery go
> >offline, the 4 amp battery with the SD-8 is plenty to keep all the important
> >systems (and then some) up and running as long as needed.
> > My big "problem" with just one battery is not the RG battery's
> >dependability in general, but the (very?) possible occurance of a broken
> >terminal. I know that's a "full bucket" as Bob says, but a broken battery
> >terminal definitely qualifies as a "single point of failure" which we are
> >all using as our baseline in electrical design.
> >
> >
>
>How about two batts *in parallel*? That is, straight Z-13 with no Z-30
>circuit but with two identical batts wired parallel. Eliminates the
>terminal concern and an open cell as well.
How about the failed battery contactor?
> But this doesn't seem to be
>a popular configuration. At least not from a search of the archives.
>What am I missing? A shorted cell would still be disastrous but that is
>far less likely and could be gotten around too. If I'm missing nothing
>with this idea, than Z-13 with the SD-8 is what I'll do.
If one is going to gather up concerns for open and shorted cells
in well maintained RG batteries, then open control wires, failed
master switches, loose nuts and bolts, and failed contactors should
all be added too . . .
> > I've seen some posters go a bit further and worry about scenarios of
> >multiple failures, but the probabability of any more than one critical
> >failure in a single flight is in the nth degree of possibility. If I lose my
> >main battery, my main alternator goes over voltage, the SD-8 won't start, I
> >start to smell smoke, and my one mag on the other side fails, and all this
> >happens exactly while I'm flying on top a mountain range, then I'm simply
> >going to assume that I have gotten a personal invitation from God to meet
> >Him face to face which will allow me to enjoy the ride down :-)
> >
Or perhaps you have Joe Btfsplk stowed away in your baggage
compartment . . . See:
http://www.bookofjoe.com/2005/02/joe_btfsplk.html
He rode with us on the Plymouth, MA seminar trip. Missed
connections outbound, got a smoking room a 1 a.m. with
not enough energy left to wrestle with the desk clerk,
temperature was in 90's with fog (humidity 100%),
a/c in meeting room was fritzed, slipped and went down
in shower for non-smoking room (buggered right arm . . .
a real handicap when you gotta wave your arms in front
of a class!), missed connections outbound and spent
night in Detroit, got home today 13 hrs late to learn
that DERs are going to give me a ration of stuff about
flying test equipment on customer airplane that I can't
fix without the data . . .
If it hadn't been for an exemplary bunch of seminar
attendees, I would have come home really bummed out.
All things considered . . . a great weekend!
However, if you check the baggage compartment before
departure and find the little guy in the black hat
is absent, then the vast majority of what we worry
about should be Wwwaaaaaayyyyyy down on the list of
concerns.
>
> >
>I made a similar comment in response to Bob earlier in this thread. :->
>Can't fight the big guy if he's got your number!
>
>
> > In the end, I'd be just as confident to fly with the Z-19 design as much
> >as the Z-13 + Z-30 design. While Z-19 is cheaper, it's a lot more weight
> >that I won't need in my RV7-A.
> > I'm not totally decided yet being that I won't have to start installing
> >a chosen system until later this Fall, but Z-13 + Z30 looks good to me. Now
> >if Bob would only add the Z-30 extra battery to the Z-13/SD-8 drawing and
> >show it as one sheet...
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z13-30.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob W M Shipley" <rob(at)robsglass.com> |
Hi Ken,
My apologies for not being complete in my question. My thought of shutting
down the primary supply to the avionics with a crowbar was with the
intention of using a separate ebus battery supply to take over.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still!
La Mesa, CA. (next to San Diego)
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVP thoughts.
Hi Rob
Someone else originally posted this link to Jim Weir's site where he
uses one or more crowbar OVMs to pop the fuse(s) to the avionics. I
think this is reasonable for VFR operations. It is not useful for those
of us with electric dependant engines.
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0109/KP0109.htm
You might want a handheld VHF and GPS though as then you lose main
battery power to the avionics. You could use CB's and reset them after
killing the alternator but I hate relying on multi-step manual
procedures when under stress.
On my machine I did not use battery contactors but all the non engine
loads do route through a contactor to a fuse block. An OVM could also be
wired to trip that contactor and protect the avionics. That presents a
single point of failure for all avionics power though. No main battery
power to the avionics during a trip is the problem with these methods so
it is not a great solution for IFR where you want uninterupted power. It
might have merit for expensive devices that have internal battery
backups and warnings though.
Ken
--
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vern W." <vernw(at)ev1.net> |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/Z-30
>
>
> >
> >
> >Vern W. wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it
was
> > >Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite
it. It
> > >will not power up by itself.
> > > So what I have sort of settled on is the Z-13 plus the Z-30
additional
> > >battery (very small, say 4 amp) which does three things: It gives the
SD-8
> > >something to lean on to get it started if need be, the small additional
> > >battery can be use to keep (full voltage) power on my Lightspeed
ignition
> > >when starting, and if both the main alternator and the primary battery
go
> > >offline, the 4 amp battery with the SD-8 is plenty to keep all the
important
> > >systems (and then some) up and running as long as needed.
> > > My big "problem" with just one battery is not the RG battery's
> > >dependability in general, but the (very?) possible occurance of a
broken
> > >terminal. I know that's a "full bucket" as Bob says, but a broken
battery
> > >terminal definitely qualifies as a "single point of failure" which we
are
> > >all using as our baseline in electrical design.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >How about two batts *in parallel*? That is, straight Z-13 with no Z-30
> >circuit but with two identical batts wired parallel. Eliminates the
> >terminal concern and an open cell as well.
>
> How about the failed battery contactor?
Absolutely, Bob. All that would do is to trade off 1 SPF for another.
>
> > But this doesn't seem to be
> >a popular configuration. At least not from a search of the archives.
> >What am I missing? A shorted cell would still be disastrous but that is
> >far less likely and could be gotten around too. If I'm missing nothing
> >with this idea, than Z-13 with the SD-8 is what I'll do.
>
> If one is going to gather up concerns for open and shorted cells
> in well maintained RG batteries, then open control wires, failed
> master switches, loose nuts and bolts, and failed contactors should
> all be added too . . .
Of course, but any single failure of those kind of issues will still result
in some available power, ESPECIALLY if one has the availability of an
alternate exciter for the SD-8 (i.e., by adding the Z30 to Z13)..
>
>
> > > I've seen some posters go a bit further and worry about scenarios
of
> > >multiple failures, but the probabability of any more than one critical
> > >failure in a single flight is in the nth degree of possibility. If I
lose my
> > >main battery, my main alternator goes over voltage, the SD-8 won't
start, I
> > >start to smell smoke, and my one mag on the other side fails, and all
this
> > >happens exactly while I'm flying on top a mountain range, then I'm
simply
> > >going to assume that I have gotten a personal invitation from God to
meet
> > >Him face to face which will allow me to enjoy the ride down :-)
> > >
>
> Or perhaps you have Joe Btfsplk stowed away in your baggage
> compartment . . . See:
I have gone through some short periods in my life where I'm sure he was my
traveling companion so I'm familiar with the gentleman.
I'll bet no one under 45 years old knows what we're talking about and who
Joe Btfsplk is :-) oh, wait, that's :-(
>
> http://www.bookofjoe.com/2005/02/joe_btfsplk.html
>
> He rode with us on the Plymouth, MA seminar trip. Missed
> connections outbound, got a smoking room a 1 a.m. with
> not enough energy left to wrestle with the desk clerk,
> temperature was in 90's with fog (humidity 100%),
> a/c in meeting room was fritzed, slipped and went down
> in shower for non-smoking room (buggered right arm . . .
> a real handicap when you gotta wave your arms in front
> of a class!), missed connections outbound and spent
> night in Detroit, got home today 13 hrs late to learn
> that DERs are going to give me a ration of stuff about
> flying test equipment on customer airplane that I can't
> fix without the data . . .
>
> If it hadn't been for an exemplary bunch of seminar
> attendees, I would have come home really bummed out.
> All things considered . . . a great weekend!
>
> However, if you check the baggage compartment before
> departure and find the little guy in the black hat
> is absent, then the vast majority of what we worry
> about should be Wwwaaaaaayyyyyy down on the list of
> concerns.
>
>
> >
> > >
> >I made a similar comment in response to Bob earlier in this thread. :->
> >Can't fight the big guy if he's got your number!
> >
> >
> > > In the end, I'd be just as confident to fly with the Z-19 design as
much
> > >as the Z-13 + Z-30 design. While Z-19 is cheaper, it's a lot more
weight
> > >that I won't need in my RV7-A.
> > > I'm not totally decided yet being that I won't have to start
installing
> > >a chosen system until later this Fall, but Z-13 + Z30 looks good to me.
Now
> > >if Bob would only add the Z-30 extra battery to the Z-13/SD-8 drawing
and
> > >show it as one sheet...
>
> See http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z13-30.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
So, you thought maybe there was something to it and decided to draw it, eh?
:-)
Thanks Bob!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
A couple of questions...
In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference the use
of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby mode as
the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything about
these Air Switches and/or a source for them?
Will the aluminum and steel structure of a fabric-covered aircraft make a
suitable ground plane for the various antennas to be used on the airplane?
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Now I thought someone on this list talked to B&C who said the SD-8 would
self excite??
Remember also that if you did have a battery terminal break, your main
alternator will still provide power and keep the battery contactor
closed.
Personally I intend to connect the SD-8 directly to the battery buss (I
have a electrically dependant airplane) so assuming it will self excite
it takes care of the failure of both the battery terminal and a failed
#1 alternator.
Am I out to lunch here??
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern
W.
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/Z-30
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/Z-30
>
>
> >
> >
> >Vern W. wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure
it
was
> > >Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to
excite
it. It
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bniles(at)cfl.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
Many airports now want transponders on for all ground movement. If
not I would just use STBY. If you forget, DEP control will remind you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Denton <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 8:54 am
Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
> A couple of questions...
>
> In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
> the use
> of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
> mode as
> the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know
> anything about
> these Air Switches and/or a source for them?
>
> Will the aluminum and steel structure of a fabric-covered aircraft
> make a
> suitable ground plane for the various antennas to be used on the
> airplane?
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Birkelbach <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More than 1 audio source into the Intercom |
Music Input -
That is what I did with my DRE intercom. I needed to get the AOA
warning into the unit and the DRE mutes the music input when something
comes on the COM input. Another thing to think about is the Pilot
Isolate Mode. I can let the passenger listen to the music and not the
COM, and I can have COM and not music. If the warning sounds were on
the music input I can isolate myself from them and not hear them at all.
I just used a simple passive mixing circuit that an engineer at DRE
sketched and sent to me.
BTW a plug for DRE: That engineer sketched the circuit for me even
though he knew that I did not buy the unit from them. I got it off of
Ebay. I have had great dealings with them. Oh and the intercom sounds
awesome!!!!
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB - Finishing Up
http://www.myrv7.com
Bill Denton wrote:
>
>Something to think about...
>
>"The PS Engineering PS 1000 II has an input impedance of 47 kOhm (music
>input)..."
>
>Another thing that the music input typically has is some sort of "muting"
>function, either partial, or full. The way this muting works, when the COM
>input is active, the volume on the music input is lowered. Which would
>result in the volume of the alarms also being lowered during COM
>transmissions.
>
>What I am considering doing is "mixing" all of my alarm outputs with the COM
>output, and feeding them into the COM input, so there would be no muting. I
>would then use the music input as a music input.
>
>I'm considering building one of Bob's Audio Isolation Amps to do the mixing,
>but if anyone knows of a reasonably priced "store-bought" unit I would
>appreciate hearing about it...
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com> |
Frank, the SD8 will not self excite. Period. And even if it is running it
may not reliably continue to do so without a battery connected.
>From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/Z-30
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:09:15 -0700
>
>
>
>Now I thought someone on this list talked to B&C who said the SD-8 would
>self excite??
>
>Remember also that if you did have a battery terminal break, your main
>alternator will still provide power and keep the battery contactor
>closed.
>
>Personally I intend to connect the SD-8 directly to the battery buss (I
>have a electrically dependant airplane) so assuming it will self excite
>it takes care of the failure of both the battery terminal and a failed
>#1 alternator.
>
>Am I out to lunch here??
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern
>W.
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/Z-30
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/Z-30
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Vern W. wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure
>it
>was
> > > >Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to
>excite
>it. It
>
>
SEEK: Over 80,000 jobs across all industries at Australia's #1 job site.
http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com> |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.58, required 3.7, autolearn=not spam,
AWL 0.02, BAYES_00 -2.60)
>>Now I thought someone on this list
talked to B&C who said the >>SD-8 would
self excite??
That would be me :-) I spoke with Jim @
B&C and that is what I got from our
conversation. But, I am also not that
electrically savvy and could have
mis-understood something. It would be a
good thing for someone here with a good
handle on the issues to talk with Jim
and verify.
--
Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Harmon
Rocket II
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: trim relay deck trim speed control |
Lui,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I've downloaded
the data you cited below and I'm sorry to report that the
Ray Allen speed control module and Infinity relay deck
are not compatible.
For compatibility, the relay deck needs to have separate
supply lines to relay coils for control and motor power
so that the adjustable output voltage of the speed controller
affects only the motor and leaves relay coil supply power
at full bus voltage.
Bob . . .
>
>
>
>I have the Infinity Aeropsace Trim Relay Deck, see at
>
>http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Relay_Deck_Wiring_Schematic.jpg
>
>I am trying to install a Ray Allen Speed control for the pitch trim but have
>a few ?? on the wiring.
>
>http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsSPD.pdf
>
>Not sure where to connect the red wire from the Speed control to the
>Infinity Relay Deck. The Relay Deck only has a
>
>1. A port for Trim motor
>2. B port for Trim motor
>3. +12 v
>4. Ground
>
>It doesn't have a provision for "blue wire" like shown on Diagram 2 of the
>Ray Allen schematic. I guess it is so simple that I don't see it.
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Lui
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
> Z-13 + Z30 looks good to me.
>Now
> >if Bob would only add the Z-30 extra battery to the Z-13/SD-8 drawing
> >and show it as one sheet...
> See http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z13-30.pdf
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>So, you thought maybe there was something to it and decided to draw it, eh?
>:-)Thanks Bob!
Note that the drawing doesn't have a z-figure . . . and probably
won't. I've had several requests for this particular configuration
and it didn't take too long to customize a copy of Z-13 and add
it to PagePerSystem drawings on the website . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
Folks, keep in mind that
(1) OV comes from ONE and ONE source only, a mis-behaving alternator.
Further, there are more devices in the airplane vulnerable to the
ov condition than just "avionics".
(2) If one subscribes to the notion that your particular choice
of internally regulated is sufficiently immune to OV runaway
events, then a choice of OV protection schemes is a moot point.
(3) If you subscribe to the notion that your alternator of choice
needs to be controllable for conducting pre-flight tests of auxiliary
alternators -AND- for dealing with smoke-in-the-cockpit events,
then some means of positive ON/OFF control from the cockpit is
indicated.
(4) If you're not convinced with respect to immunity from OV
failures, then an OV event can be brought to heel in a relatively
by means of positive ON/OFF control cited in (3). What ever
means of OV sense, reaction and control, the alternator should
be shut down in a reasonably short period of time (say under
500 milliseconds assuming a healthy battery - - and none of
us plan to fly with a sick battery - - right?).
>Someone else originally posted this link to Jim Weir's site where he
>uses one or more crowbar OVMs to pop the fuse(s) to the avionics. I
>think this is reasonable for VFR operations. It is not useful for those
>of us with electric dependant engines.
(5)If you control the OV condition at the SOURCE, then ALL
vulnerable features of the aircraft's electrical system
are protected irrespective of whether or not your engine
is electrically dependent.
>http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0109/KP0109.htm
>You might want a handheld VHF and GPS though as then you lose main
>battery power to the avionics. You could use CB's and reset them after
>killing the alternator but I hate relying on multi-step manual
>procedures when under stress.
>
>On my machine I did not use battery contactors but all the non engine
>loads do route through a contactor to a fuse block. An OVM could also be
>wired to trip that contactor and protect the avionics. That presents a
>single point of failure for all avionics power though. No main battery
>power to the avionics during a trip is the problem with these methods so
>it is not a great solution for IFR where you want uninterupted power. It
>might have merit for expensive devices that have internal battery
>backups and warnings though.
Would you care to post some power distribution diagrams that
describe your architecture. The lack of battery contactors piques
our interest. You've expressed some interest in management
of an OV event . . . it seems that elimination of battery contactors
offers possibilities for some equally exciting failure modes
that battery contactors are expected to control . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Now I thought someone on this list talked to B&C who said the SD-8 would
>self excite??
>
>Remember also that if you did have a battery terminal break, your main
>alternator will still provide power and keep the battery contactor
>closed.
>
>Personally I intend to connect the SD-8 directly to the battery buss (I
>have a electrically dependant airplane) so assuming it will self excite
>it takes care of the failure of both the battery terminal and a failed
>#1 alternator.
No, it won't. But it's easy to make sure you don't break a
battery terminal . . .
>Am I out to lunch here??
The SD-8 in its present configuration has been unchanged since
day-one and will not come on line by itself. To the best of my
knowledge, there are no plans to change this . . . although it
would be easy to do.
Folks who are unhappy about this and would like to see a well-
considered product improvement are encouraged to make their
wishes known to B&C. You ARE, after all, the CUSTOMERS.
In the mean time, my personal choice for system architecture
in an OBAM aircraft would be Z-13/8 and dual p-mags. This
combination offers quantum jumps in system reliability over
and above current certified products which are ALREADY
relatively immune to electrical system failures that grow
into catastrophic events.
If you're willing to launch into the gray stuff in a
well equipped certified ship, then an airplane fitted with
upgrades offered by the Z-13/8 w/p-mags stands very
tall over the certified iron.
In the interest of consistency and well considered, incremental
improvements to the best we know how to do today, I'll
suggest that forward thinking individuals take one of
the Z-figures and then identify ways in which their personal
design goals are not being met. Proposed changes/additions
are easy to evaluate for potential "gotchas" . . .
just put them out here on the list for discussion. Folks
who are still in the decision-making modes should be cautious
of embracing proposed derivatives before they've been
posted to the list and reduced to their component simple-
ideas.
This is not a discouragement of anyone's plans to install
whatever system offers them the most comfort. I'm only
suggesting that the neophyte builder embrace such
enhancements with caution and ideally only after new
ideas have been evaluated for failure to meet all
design goals.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
Bob,
This seems to be the most talked about subject on this list and to some
extent the most confusing.
What is your current recommendation for a "positive off within 500ms" . . .
I had heard / read that you had concerns regarding earlier proposed
solutions (due to parts not performing as planned)??
Thanks,
Bob Christensen
On 8/18/05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
> Folks, keep in mind that
>
> (1) OV comes from ONE and ONE source only, a mis-behaving alternator.
> Further, there are more devices in the airplane vulnerable to the
> ov condition than just "avionics".
>
> (2) If one subscribes to the notion that your particular choice
> of internally regulated is sufficiently immune to OV runaway
> events, then a choice of OV protection schemes is a moot point.
>
> (3) If you subscribe to the notion that your alternator of choice
> needs to be controllable for conducting pre-flight tests of auxiliary
> alternators -AND- for dealing with smoke-in-the-cockpit events,
> then some means of positive ON/OFF control from the cockpit is
> indicated.
>
> (4) If you're not convinced with respect to immunity from OV
> failures, then an OV event can be brought to heel in a relatively
> by means of positive ON/OFF control cited in (3). What ever
> means of OV sense, reaction and control, the alternator should
> be shut down in a reasonably short period of time (say under
> 500 milliseconds assuming a healthy battery - - and none of
> us plan to fly with a sick battery - - right?).
>
>
> >Someone else originally posted this link to Jim Weir's site where he
> >uses one or more crowbar OVMs to pop the fuse(s) to the avionics. I
> >think this is reasonable for VFR operations. It is not useful for those
> >of us with electric dependant engines.
>
>
> (5)If you control the OV condition at the SOURCE, then ALL
> vulnerable features of the aircraft's electrical system
> are protected irrespective of whether or not your engine
> is electrically dependent.
>
> >http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0109/KP0109.htm
> >You might want a handheld VHF and GPS though as then you lose main
> >battery power to the avionics. You could use CB's and reset them after
> >killing the alternator but I hate relying on multi-step manual
> >procedures when under stress.
> >
> >On my machine I did not use battery contactors but all the non engine
> >loads do route through a contactor to a fuse block. An OVM could also be
> >wired to trip that contactor and protect the avionics. That presents a
> >single point of failure for all avionics power though. No main battery
> >power to the avionics during a trip is the problem with these methods so
> >it is not a great solution for IFR where you want uninterupted power. It
> >might have merit for expensive devices that have internal battery
> >backups and warnings though.
>
> Would you care to post some power distribution diagrams that
> describe your architecture. The lack of battery contactors piques
> our interest. You've expressed some interest in management
> of an OV event . . . it seems that elimination of battery contactors
> offers possibilities for some equally exciting failure modes
> that battery contactors are expected to control . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>
>Frank, the SD8 will not self excite. Period. And even if it is running it
>may not reliably continue to do so without a battery connected.
If the capacitor shown in schematics that feature the SD-8
is included, the SD-8 will run fine sans battery . . . but
it's extremely unlikely that it will ever be required to do
so.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger L. Mell" <rmell33(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
Bob, As a new builder trying to develop an understanding of aircraft electrical
systems, I would appreciate your detailed recommendation for achieving "control
of the OV condition at the SOURCE" as stated in (5) below. I've followed the
OV discussions for several weeks and remain totally confused.
Thanks,
Roger Mell
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III<mailto:nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVP thoughts
Folks, keep in mind that
(1) OV comes from ONE and ONE source only, a mis-behaving alternator.
Further, there are more devices in the airplane vulnerable to the
ov condition than just "avionics".
(2) If one subscribes to the notion that your particular choice
of internally regulated is sufficiently immune to OV runaway
events, then a choice of OV protection schemes is a moot point.
(3) If you subscribe to the notion that your alternator of choice
needs to be controllable for conducting pre-flight tests of auxiliary
alternators -AND- for dealing with smoke-in-the-cockpit events,
then some means of positive ON/OFF control from the cockpit is
indicated.
(4) If you're not convinced with respect to immunity from OV
failures, then an OV event can be brought to heel in a relatively
by means of positive ON/OFF control cited in (3). What ever
means of OV sense, reaction and control, the alternator should
be shut down in a reasonably short period of time (say under
500 milliseconds assuming a healthy battery - - and none of
us plan to fly with a sick battery - - right?).
>Someone else originally posted this link to Jim Weir's site where he
>uses one or more crowbar OVMs to pop the fuse(s) to the avionics. I
>think this is reasonable for VFR operations. It is not useful for those
>of us with electric dependant engines.
(5)If you control the OV condition at the SOURCE, then ALL
vulnerable features of the aircraft's electrical system
are protected irrespective of whether or not your engine
is electrically dependent.
>http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0109/KP0109.htm
>You might want a handheld VHF and GPS though as then you lose main
>battery power to the avionics. You could use CB's and reset them after
>killing the alternator but I hate relying on multi-step manual
>procedures when under stress.
>
>On my machine I did not use battery contactors but all the non engine
>loads do route through a contactor to a fuse block. An OVM could also be
>wired to trip that contactor and protect the avionics. That presents a
>single point of failure for all avionics power though. No main battery
>power to the avionics during a trip is the problem with these methods so
>it is not a great solution for IFR where you want uninterupted power. It
>might have merit for expensive devices that have internal battery
>backups and warnings though.
Would you care to post some power distribution diagrams that
describe your architecture. The lack of battery contactors piques
our interest. You've expressed some interest in management
of an OV event . . . it seems that elimination of battery contactors
offers possibilities for some equally exciting failure modes
that battery contactors are expected to control . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FW: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 1 |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
0.06 HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY BODY": aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Seeing how there has been suggestions that Pmags are the way to go, I thought
I would forward this on as a heads up from the canard group.......
-----Original Message-----
From: canard-aviators(at)yahoogroups.com [mailto:canard-aviators(at)yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marc J. Zeitlin
Subject: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 1
Folks:
Yesterday I flew down from Fitchburg, MA to Brookhaven, NY to visit Ken Miller's
shop. I had arranged with Ken to purchase an impulse magneto from him to replace
the PMag that I've had on my engine. Ken would supervise the installation
and help out with any issues that arose.
The Emagair folks had suggested one last test for my flight down. I had thought
that heat might be damaging the electrolytic capacitors in the unit, so I put
a 2200 mF, 35V electrolytic across the +/- leads into the PMag (as they suggested).
The thought was that if the internal caps were damaged or degraded, this
would add enough capacitance to reverse the damage. No such luck (if you'd
call it luck to pinpoint the problem, rather than having it still be undefined)
- the capacitor did NOT change the "missing" issue that I've been having.
Anyway, after an uneventful flight, I sent my wife off to visit her mother, and
took the cowling off to let the engine cool a bit. I removed the Pmag, the auto
plugs and the wiring harness, disconnected the MP tap to the Pmag, and made
a small jumper harness to connect the magneto P-Lead back to the airplane.
One thing that jumped (and I mean JUMPED) out at Ken when he examined the Pmag
was damage/wear to the Pmag gear. This is supposed to be a non-impulse mag gear,
which you can either take off of a non-impulse magneto, buy at a flea market,
spend $400 purchasing new from Lycoming, or buy from Emagair as shown at:
http://www.emagair.com/E-MAG_product_page.htm
Emagair has contracted to have these made for them, but they are NOT certified.
After the first 5-10 hours of use, I had seen what I thought was excessive wear
on this gear. I had mentioned it to Emagair, and during one of the PMag's
frequent visits home, they got to see it. At any rate, there was a LOT of wear.
Ken was VERY concerned, and since I had been planning on doing an oil change
within the next few hours anyway, I decided to do it there. Ken also called
in two engine experts that were in hangars nearby and got them to look at the
gear, as well as to look inside the accessory case and check out the engine
gears.
Upon inspecting the accessory case gears, no excessive wear or damage was found,
except for a few small dings in the drive gear which they did not find troubling
(and were probably caused by the magneto being loose last year during my
flight from VA to TN to MO). This was a good thing.
When we cut open the filter and examined it, there was a fair amount of ferrous
metal in the filter - Ken said he's seen way worse, but it was definitely more
than there should be, and it was something to be concerned with. All three
of the engine folks (Ken and the other two) were convinced that the metal had
come off of the Pmag produced gear. They all said that the gear should have been
hardened, and shouldn't have been able to wear like that. We took a file
to one tooth, and it cut easily - it obviously was NOT hardened, as the engine
guys said it should have been.
After much discussion and a phone call to Mattituck, they determined that since
the engine had been running for about 40 - 50 hours to make the metal in the
filter, and since there did not seem to be any degradation in the power output,
there PROBABLY was no other damage inside the engine, but that the gear was
a BIG problem. So I did the oil change, we put on a new filter, and we would
test the "no damage" theory, later.
to be continued:
--
Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marc_zeitlin(at)alum.mit.edu
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/ Copyright (c) 2005
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canard-aviators/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
canard-aviators-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FW: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
0.06 HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY BODY": aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
-----Original Message-----
From: canard-aviators(at)yahoogroups.com [mailto:canard-aviators(at)yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marc J. Zeitlin
Subject: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
continued:
We installed the new Impulse Magneto, wiring harness, and a set of iridium plugs,
and timed it. With Ken's help, timing the impulse mag, which had taken me
the better part of a day and a great deal of a few folks sanity to perform last
year in St. Louis, took about 10 minutes. To paraphrase Sean Connery in "The
Wind and the Lion": "It is good to know what one is doing". After hooking
up everything, connecting the wires, hoses, lines, tie wraps, and every other
damn thing that we had taken apart, we did a 2 minute test run of the engine to
look for leaks or other problems. There were none.
I then went up for a 20 minute flight to circulate the oil through the filter and
take out any remaining metal, if any. After landing, I removed the cowl and
filter, and we cut that open. There was a completely insignificant amount of
ferrous metal in it, if any. That indicated to Ken that at least the engine
wasn't making any metal on it's own, at least not much. He said to keep a close
eye on it, so I'll be changing/checking filters every 25 hours for the next
few oil changes, rather than 50 hours.
The flight with the magneto was fine - no "missing", no issues whatsoever. Both
mags have almost exactly the same RPM drop during runup, and everything is nominal.
It feels VERY strange to be reverting to 60-70 year old technology, but
I needed an airplane that I could fly every day without having to explain to
my wife why it sounds like my old Volkswagen fastback that I bought for $75
in 1980, when it was already 10 years old.
So there are two big issues here, as I see them.
First, the "missing" issue. We still have no idea why my unit(s) continued to
exhibit the "missing" problem, even after the firmware update that was supposed
to fix it. Especially since it SEEMED fixed for about 15 hours just before
and during OSH, and then reappeared on the temporary Emag, and then immediately
on the "permanent" Pmag. This is an issue for Emagair to investigate, should
they choose to do so. They will have both of my units by mid-next week, and
will be refunding my money in full (which will pay for the magneto, the gear,
the wiring harness, the plugs, and leave me with a couple hundred $$$ left over
for some dinners in Lancaster, when we get out there :-) ).
Secondly, the "gear" issue. Since Lycoming sees fit to charge $400 for a gear
that, were it manufactured in quantity, would cost about $10-$20, there is great
pressure to find a cheaper source. The $85 gear from Emagair is just that.
However, it seems that AT LEAST FOR THE GEAR THAT I HAD ON MY PMAG, either the
material, the hardening, and/or the tooth shape was NOT correct. We held the
gear up to the gear on the impulse mag, and it did NOT appear identical in tooth
shape, although it was a bit hard to tell due to the material displacement/wear.
Since a file could touch it, we know that it was not hardened. Because
of these problems, I had a lot of metal in my engine that shouldn't have been
there.
I may be lucky and not have this cause a problem, but if it does, I will have to
have some serious conversations with Emagair regarding expenses incurred to
deal with them. Let's all hope that doesn't happen.
I would suggest, however, that anyone with an Emag or Pmag on their running engine
remove them to examine the gear for wear/damage. Maybe my gear was an anomaly
- god knows that I seem to have more than my fair share of them, but if there
was a bad run of gears, folks should check to make sure that they're not
making metal in their engines, too. Try to file a tip of one gear tooth - if
the file takes off metal, it's not hardened. Check with YOUR engine experts to
see if they concur that it SHOULD be hardened - that's what Ken and his two
guys said.
Anyway, I do want to reiterate that Brad and Tom at Emagair are terrific people,
with a great focus on customer support and satisfaction. I REALLY hope that
they are successful, and can figure out what's going on here so that in time
I can get one of these units on my airplane. I request that anyone flying with
these units report back to everyone, letting us know how they work, on a regular
basis - if I'm the one exception that proves the rule, so be it - there's
always one or two.
Thanks.
--
Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marc_zeitlin(at)alum.mit.edu
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/ Copyright (c) 2005
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canard-aviators/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
canard-aviators-unsubscribe(at)yahoogroups.com
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
8/18/2005
Hello Avionics Experts, My friend has a Cessna 172 with a NARCO CP 136 TSO
audio control panel in it. One selects which radio to transmit on or which
receivers to listen to by pushing in round buttons. No intercom is
incorporated.
He has been having VHF radio transmitter problems that appear after an hour
or so of flight. Since both transmitters send out just basic carrier with no
voice included after this failure mode happens it has been assumed that the
failure may be heat related and caused within the audio panel since both
transmitters are affected the same way at the same time.
When the problem was discussed with a local avionics shop their analysis was
that it could not be a heat related problem within the audio panel because
the audio panel was a simple mechanical device with no electronics inside.
Nevertheless their solution was to replace the audio control panel with a
modern PS Engineering audio control panel and intercom at the cost of big
bucks.
Can anyone confirm this description of the inner workings and hidden
mechanisms of this audio control panel? Can anyone come up with a better
(cheaper) cure than the one described above? Thank you.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics-List: NARCO Help |
I had that problem when I first wired my MustangII. The audio out from the
mic was grounded through a pinched wired to ground behind the instrument
panel. Does both pilot and copilot have that same problem?
Find the audio out wire from the audio panel (btw, I have found NARCO stuff
to be CRAP!) and from the affected mic and check it with a multimeter to
ground. If it shows continuity to ground, that's the problem
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Avionics-List: NARCO Help
> --> Avionics-List message posted by:
>
> 8/18/2005
>
> Hello Avionics Experts, My friend has a Cessna 172 with a NARCO CP 136
> TSO
> audio control panel in it. One selects which radio to transmit on or which
> receivers to listen to by pushing in round buttons. No intercom is
> incorporated.
>
> He has been having VHF radio transmitter problems that appear after an
> hour
> or so of flight. Since both transmitters send out just basic carrier with
> no
> voice included after this failure mode happens it has been assumed that
> the
> failure may be heat related and caused within the audio panel since both
> transmitters are affected the same way at the same time.
>
> When the problem was discussed with a local avionics shop their analysis
> was
> that it could not be a heat related problem within the audio panel because
> the audio panel was a simple mechanical device with no electronics inside.
> Nevertheless their solution was to replace the audio control panel with a
> modern PS Engineering audio control panel and intercom at the cost of big
> bucks.
>
> Can anyone confirm this description of the inner workings and hidden
> mechanisms of this audio control panel? Can anyone come up with a better
> (cheaper) cure than the one described above? Thank you.
>
> OC
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: bniles(at)cfl.rr.com
Many airports now want transponders on for all ground movement. If
not I would just use STBY. If you forget, DEP control will remind you.
>
> A couple of questions...
>
> In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
> the use
> of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
> mode as
> the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know
> anything about
> these Air Switches and/or a source for them?.....skip......
8/18/2005
Hello Bill and bniles, A couple of points if I may:
1) Many modern avionics installations have an interface between the GPS box
and the transponder that automatically turns the transponder on into
"Standby" and then on into "Altitude" modes when appropriate.
Applying power to my avionics bus causes the Garmin GNS 430 to come on if
the on box switch is left in the ON position. Applying power to my avionics
bus causes my GTX 327 to come on in the Standby mode regardless of any on
box switch positions (they are all momentary push buttons). When the GPS
tells the transponder that the airplane is airborne and going above a
certain speed the transponder automatically shifts from Standby to Altitude
mode -- no action at all is required by the pilot.
This feature could be considered an "Air Switch" by some people.
2) If operation of the transponder is done automatically as described above,
those airports that are expecting the transponders to be on while the
aircraft is on the ground will have to implement some sort of override
action by the pilots in order to make this happen.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
On my GTX 330, pressing the on button overrides the stby function and the
transponder functions, even if on the ground and under 30 kts.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: bniles(at)cfl.rr.com
Many airports now want transponders on for all ground movement. If
not I would just use STBY. If you forget, DEP control will remind you.
>
> A couple of questions...
>
> In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
> the use
> of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
> mode as
> the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know
> anything about
> these Air Switches and/or a source for them?.....skip......
8/18/2005
Hello Bill and bniles, A couple of points if I may:
1) Many modern avionics installations have an interface between the GPS box
and the transponder that automatically turns the transponder on into
"Standby" and then on into "Altitude" modes when appropriate.
Applying power to my avionics bus causes the Garmin GNS 430 to come on if
the on box switch is left in the ON position. Applying power to my avionics
bus causes my GTX 327 to come on in the Standby mode regardless of any on
box switch positions (they are all momentary push buttons). When the GPS
tells the transponder that the airplane is airborne and going above a
certain speed the transponder automatically shifts from Standby to Altitude
mode -- no action at all is required by the pilot.
This feature could be considered an "Air Switch" by some people.
2) If operation of the transponder is done automatically as described above,
those airports that are expecting the transponders to be on while the
aircraft is on the ground will have to implement some sort of override
action by the pilots in order to make this happen.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce McGregor" <bruceflys(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Concentric controls |
My intercom has the squelch and volume controls on concentric shafts. The
inner volume control is loose enough that vibration causes it to change
position in flight. Is there a method of adding mechanical resistance to
that shaft without causing the outer knob to rotate at the same time?
TIA, Bruce McGregor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Antenna Cable Connector Source |
No luck in the archives. Does anyone have a source for the BNC type coaxial cable
connector attached to the transponder tray with a snap ring on the Garmin
GTX320A? My unit came with a solder type connector & I would like to have a BNC
style connection to simplify panel removal. The Garmin part number is 330-00326-00.
Dave Reel - RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Concentric controls |
>My intercom has the squelch and volume controls on concentric shafts. The
> inner volume control is loose enough that vibration causes it to change
> position in flight. Is there a method of adding mechanical resistance to
> that shaft without causing the outer knob to rotate at the same time?
>TIA, Bruce McGregor
If you had a bunch of potentiometers and needed to make them all feel the
same (The "sine qua non" of potentiometer manufacturers), you COULD have
them machined incredibly precisely and then screw around until you went
bankrupt. Or----
You could make a carefully formulated silicone lubricant that has precise
"feel" characteristics. By using a particular lube, you can adjust the drag,
torque, smoothness, etc. Furthermore these charactistics can be relatively
temperature independent, make up for tolerance variations, and last a very
long time.
That's the GOOD news.
The BAD news is that the special silicones are only sold in 55 gallon drums
to OEMs. But Google it. You might find the one special drop you need--or
failing all else, try one drop of the very heaviest silicone oil you can
get. Might work.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Beaten paths are for beaten men."
-E. A. Johnston
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an answer
to my question. I originally asked:
"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference the use
of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby mode as
the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything about
these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
Allow me to add some additional information:
The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair T2000. The
"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from ground
(configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class "B", so
I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO and
they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA plane.
And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would be no
advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick titsworth <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
Bruce,
Just curious... Does your GTX330 turn back to STBY after landing?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
On my GTX 330, pressing the on button overrides the stby function and the
transponder functions, even if on the ground and under 30 kts.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: bniles(at)cfl.rr.com
Many airports now want transponders on for all ground movement. If
not I would just use STBY. If you forget, DEP control will remind you.
>
> A couple of questions...
>
> In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
> the use
> of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
> mode as
> the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know
> anything about
> these Air Switches and/or a source for them?.....skip......
8/18/2005
Hello Bill and bniles, A couple of points if I may:
1) Many modern avionics installations have an interface between the GPS box
and the transponder that automatically turns the transponder on into
"Standby" and then on into "Altitude" modes when appropriate.
Applying power to my avionics bus causes the Garmin GNS 430 to come on if
the on box switch is left in the ON position. Applying power to my avionics
bus causes my GTX 327 to come on in the Standby mode regardless of any on
box switch positions (they are all momentary push buttons). When the GPS
tells the transponder that the airplane is airborne and going above a
certain speed the transponder automatically shifts from Standby to Altitude
mode -- no action at all is required by the pilot.
This feature could be considered an "Air Switch" by some people.
2) If operation of the transponder is done automatically as described above,
those airports that are expecting the transponders to be on while the
aircraft is on the ground will have to implement some sort of override
action by the pilots in order to make this happen.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bniles(at)cfl.rr.com |
| Subject: | Re: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
Nope! No auto-stby after touchdown. That is what shutdown flows and
checklists are for.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick titsworth <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:30 am
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
> Bruce,
> Just curious... Does your GTX330 turn back to STBY after landing?
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
>
> On my GTX 330, pressing the on button overrides the stby function
> and the
> transponder functions, even if on the ground and under 30 kts.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> bakerocb(at)cox.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
>
>
> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: bniles(at)cfl.rr.com
>
> Many airports now want transponders on for all ground movement. If
> not I would just use STBY. If you forget, DEP control will remind
> you.
> >
> > A couple of questions...
> >
> > In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
> > the use
> > of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
> > mode as
> > the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know
> > anything about
> > these Air Switches and/or a source for them?.....skip......
>
> 8/18/2005
>
> Hello Bill and bniles, A couple of points if I may:
>
> 1) Many modern avionics installations have an interface between
> the GPS box
> and the transponder that automatically turns the transponder on
> into
> "Standby" and then on into "Altitude" modes when appropriate.
>
> Applying power to my avionics bus causes the Garmin GNS 430 to
> come on if
> the on box switch is left in the ON position. Applying power to my
> avionics
> bus causes my GTX 327 to come on in the Standby mode regardless of
> any on
> box switch positions (they are all momentary push buttons). When
> the GPS
> tells the transponder that the airplane is airborne and going
> above a
> certain speed the transponder automatically shifts from Standby to
> Altitude
> mode -- no action at all is required by the pilot.
>
> This feature could be considered an "Air Switch" by some people.
>
> 2) If operation of the transponder is done automatically as
> described above,
>
> those airports that are expecting the transponders to be on while
> the
> aircraft is on the ground will have to implement some sort of
> override
> action by the pilots in order to make this happen.
>
> OC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Phil Birkelbach <phil(at)petrasoft.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
Does the landing gear flex enough that you could use a squat switch?
You could buy a small limit switch from radio shack to do that.
You could use a DP pressure switch. Like found here...
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T052/1514.pdf
Just hook it into your pitot / static system like it was an airspeed
indicator. High pressure port on the pitot line.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB - Finishing Up
http://www.myrv7.com
Bill Denton wrote:
>
>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an answer
>to my question. I originally asked:
>
>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference the use
>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby mode as
>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything about
>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>
>Allow me to add some additional information:
>
>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair T2000. The
>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from ground
>(configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>
>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class "B", so
>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO and
>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA plane.
>
>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would be no
>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>
>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane |
Yes, it does.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bniles(at)cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
Nope! No auto-stby after touchdown. That is what shutdown flows and
checklists are for.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick titsworth <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:30 am
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
> Bruce,
> Just curious... Does your GTX330 turn back to STBY after landing?
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
>
> On my GTX 330, pressing the on button overrides the stby function
> and the
> transponder functions, even if on the ground and under 30 kts.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> bakerocb(at)cox.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Air" Switch & Antenna Ground Plane
>
>
>
> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: bniles(at)cfl.rr.com
>
> Many airports now want transponders on for all ground movement. If
> not I would just use STBY. If you forget, DEP control will remind
> you.
> >
> > A couple of questions...
> >
> > In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
> > the use
> > of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
> > mode as
> > the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know
> > anything about
> > these Air Switches and/or a source for them?.....skip......
>
> 8/18/2005
>
> Hello Bill and bniles, A couple of points if I may:
>
> 1) Many modern avionics installations have an interface between
> the GPS box
> and the transponder that automatically turns the transponder on
> into
> "Standby" and then on into "Altitude" modes when appropriate.
>
> Applying power to my avionics bus causes the Garmin GNS 430 to
> come on if
> the on box switch is left in the ON position. Applying power to my
> avionics
> bus causes my GTX 327 to come on in the Standby mode regardless of
> any on
> box switch positions (they are all momentary push buttons). When
> the GPS
> tells the transponder that the airplane is airborne and going
> above a
> certain speed the transponder automatically shifts from Standby to
> Altitude
> mode -- no action at all is required by the pilot.
>
> This feature could be considered an "Air Switch" by some people.
>
> 2) If operation of the transponder is done automatically as
> described above,
>
> those airports that are expecting the transponders to be on while
> the
> aircraft is on the ground will have to implement some sort of
> override
> action by the pilots in order to make this happen.
>
> OC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ectric-List: |
> "In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals
reference
> the use of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of
> Standby mode as the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does
anyone
> know anything about these Air Switches and/or a source for
them?"
OK. Try...
http://www.pressureswitch.com/products500.html
and
http://www.iflyez.com/manometer.htm
and
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=PSW-141&Nav=preh04
and
http://www.thomasnet.com/nsearch.html?cov=NA&heading=819017
61
Man, I love the InterNet!!!!!
At 20 kts you need (at least at sea level) a switch capable of .05 psi
activation. The above switch will provide that. Since it's 103, plumb a
tee off the pitot or use a separate pitot, your choice.
Or....again, since it's 103, a Cherry lever switch with a plate attached
that activates when speed is high enough (additional drag probably
not needed tho!!!)
> FSDO and they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to
undergo
> the same inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in
> a GA plane.
Not if you don't want to.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
>I would suggest, however, that anyone with an Emag or Pmag on their running
engine
>remove them to examine the gear for wear/damage.
For those who need a non-impulse magneto gear for their electronic igintion:
Try ECI, Non impulse mag gears $204.00
I purchased my mag gear on eBay. It took two tries, the first one was OK but slightly
pitted, so I returned it to the seller with no problem. I bid and won a
second gear on eBay which was in very good condition for about $80.
Your factory stock magnetos have two differnt drive gears, one magneto use an impulse
gear, the other magneto uses a non-impulse gear. Electronic ignitions
use the non-impulse gear only.
If you replace just one magneto you replace the non-impulse magneto and use the
gear from the stock mag for the electronic ignition trigger (hall effect). If
you replace both magnetos for electronic ignition you will need a second non-impulse
gear.
Other EI, like Lightspeed, give you a choice of using a magneto driven trigger
(hall effect) or a crank trigger. The crank trigger mounts on the front of the
engine and uses magnets mounted in the flywheel and a pick-up bolted to the front
of the engine case. There is work involved in placing magnets in the flywheel
but it has advatages, like no magneto gears . The magneto gear drive is
easier to install in that you don't have to install magnets or trigger pickups
on the engine case.
Regards George
>Subject: FW: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
>From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
>
>Subject: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
>
>I would suggest, however, that anyone with an Emag or Pmag on their running
engine
>remove them to examine the gear for wear/damage. Maybe my gear was an anomaly
>- god knows that I seem to have more than my fair share of them, but if
there
>was a bad run of gears, folks should check to make sure that they're not
>making metal in their engines, too. Try to file a tip of one gear tooth
- if
>the file takes off metal, it's not hardened. Check with YOUR engine experts
to
>see if they concur that it SHOULD be hardened - that's what Ken and his
two
>guys said.
>
>Marc J. Zeitlin
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wire run questions |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
0.06 HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY BODY": aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Ok, got a couple questions on how to run some of my wing wiring. Breaks down to
these two things:
1) Is it necessary (other than just a good idea) to run the nav coax (RG400) away
from the pitot (16ga), strobe (shielded), and landing light (18ga to HID local
ballast) power lines. I have plenty of places in my ribs where I could move
the coax about 12" away from the power lines. I'm already running the trim
with the pitot and AOA air lines which are about another 6" away from the power
runs. Basically it would look something like this
( | . . . >
if I split them up with the first period being the pitot air, then the power,
and finally the coax.
2) I am using the Archer nav antennas and have a ton of room in my wingtip allowing
me to mount the antenna way aft of the lights. If the LED power and strobe
wires don't cross the antenna, or even come near it, do I need to be concerned
with running them along the antenna? If the answer is no, it gives me more
incentive to run the nav coax separate as I can probably maintain the 12" clearance
all the way to the antenna.
I have a pretty good idea on the answer but I want to be sure.
Michael Sausen
-10 # 352 wing ribs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Concentric controls |
>
>
>
> >My intercom has the squelch and volume controls on concentric shafts. The
> > inner volume control is loose enough that vibration causes it to change
> > position in flight. Is there a method of adding mechanical resistance to
> > that shaft without causing the outer knob to rotate at the same time?
> >TIA, Bruce McGregor
>
>If you had a bunch of potentiometers and needed to make them all feel the
>same (The "sine qua non" of potentiometer manufacturers), you COULD have
>them machined incredibly precisely and then screw around until you went
>bankrupt. Or----
>
>You could make a carefully formulated silicone lubricant that has precise
>"feel" characteristics. By using a particular lube, you can adjust the drag,
>torque, smoothness, etc. Furthermore these charactistics can be relatively
>temperature independent, make up for tolerance variations, and last a very
>long time.
>
>That's the GOOD news.
>
>The BAD news is that the special silicones are only sold in 55 gallon drums
>to OEMs. But Google it. You might find the one special drop you need--or
>failing all else, try one drop of the very heaviest silicone oil you can
>get. Might work.
High Eric, pleased to meet you in person last weekend in Plymouth!
I think Bruce's problem is a bit tougher. He wants to drive up
friction forces in the center shaft of a two shaft system. All
the standard techniques (silicon oils, friction washers between
knobs, etc) only serve to INCREASE friction between the inner shaft
(end knob) and outer shaft (large knob). I don't have a
suggestion for making an adjustment of center-shaft friction
forces that do not apply same force to the outer shaft.
By the way, anyone wishing to add that silky-smooth friction
characteristic to rotary controls, some sliding controls, and
even damping for some instrument movements can fiddle with
high viscosity silicon oils available in small bottles from
hobby shops. This stuff is used as shock absorber fluid on
RC race cars. I built some nose-gear steering controls for
a Hawker Horizon simulator where silicon oil filled model car
shock struts offered the desired resistance and smooth feel.
It's also used to "semi-lock" differentials in model cars.
See: http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?Q=&I=LXBZT5
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire run questions |
The answer to both questions is NO.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies
Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
(Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
----- Original Message -----
>
>
> Ok, got a couple questions on how to run some of my wing wiring. Breaks
> down to these two things:
>
> 1) Is it necessary (other than just a good idea) to run the nav coax
> (RG400) away from the pitot (16ga), strobe (shielded), and landing light
> (18ga to HID local ballast) power lines. I have plenty of places in my
> ribs where I could move the coax about 12" away from the power lines. I'm
> already running the trim with the pitot and AOA air lines which are about
> another 6" away from the power runs. Basically it would look something
> like this
>
> ( | . . . >
>
> if I split them up with the first period being the pitot air, then the
> power, and finally the coax.
>
> 2) I am using the Archer nav antennas and have a ton of room in my wingtip
> allowing me to mount the antenna way aft of the lights. If the LED power
> and strobe wires don't cross the antenna, or even come near it, do I need
> to be concerned with running them along the antenna? If the answer is no,
> it gives me more incentive to run the nav coax separate as I can probably
> maintain the 12" clearance all the way to the antenna.
>
> I have a pretty good idea on the answer but I want to be sure.
>
> Michael Sausen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
3.03 DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 Date: is 12 to 24 hours after Received: date
I seem to remember someone posting that they had their GMA340 modified in
some way to improve the quality of the music (loudness maybe) output.
I am considering getting a GMA340 but have heard they are a bit suspect in
the intercom area, particularly when playing music.
Any commments on a fix or there overall quality would be good.
I need an Audio panel that will handle 2 VHF a MB and allow two seperate
music inputs. (stereo)
I want to play Straus in the front and Wiggles in the back.
Chris Byrne
Sydney
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Chris -
With the GMA-340, you have two music inputs that can be wired as you would
like them to be. We had the avionics tech wire one input that will go to
all four seats. The other input has nothing in. There is a preamp in the
box and you can wire it so that it is on all the time for those music
inputs that have a low signal. You can install a switch in the line and be
able to turn it on or off. The problem with that preamp is that it
amplifies everything, including any noise in the system. For this reason,
we decided not to wire it up and will select a music box that has enough
signal strength.
We are not flying yet but the 340 appears to be a very good box. We do
have a very, very low level of noise, but have not isolated the other gear
to see if it is in the 340 or not. Based on what we have done in the
checkout phase (not flying yet), I think it is probably in the 340. It is
really not a problem, IMHO.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
John
PS: We had our 340 wired by an avionics shop, so I can't tell you how to
wire the dual channels you want to have.
> Any commments on a fix or there overall quality would be good.
>
> I need an Audio panel that will handle 2 VHF a MB and allow two seperate
> music inputs. (stereo)
> I want to play Straus in the front and Wiggles in the back.
>
>
> Chris Byrne
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rsipp(at)earthlink.net |
| Subject: | Re: Wire run questions |
Mike:
Regarding #2)
I asked Bob Archer the same question regarding the large 10 wing tip and the opportunity
to run the wires away from the nav antenna. His response was not to
do this and to follow the instructions and intentionally run all the other tip
wiring along the angled leg of the antenna. He sent updated instructions that
emphasize this.
Dick Sipp
RV4 700 hours
RV10 40065
-----Original Message-----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
0.06 HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY BODY": aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire run questions
Ok, got a couple questions on how to run some of my wing wiring. Breaks down to
these two things:
1) Is it necessary (other than just a good idea) to run the nav coax (RG400) away
from the pitot (16ga), strobe (shielded), and landing light (18ga to HID local
ballast) power lines. I have plenty of places in my ribs where I could move
the coax about 12" away from the power lines. I'm already running the trim
with the pitot and AOA air lines which are about another 6" away from the power
runs. Basically it would look something like this
( | . . . >
if I split them up with the first period being the pitot air, then the power,
and finally the coax.
2) I am using the Archer nav antennas and have a ton of room in my wingtip allowing
me to mount the antenna way aft of the lights. If the LED power and strobe
wires don't cross the antenna, or even come near it, do I need to be concerned
with running them along the antenna? If the answer is no, it gives me more
incentive to run the nav coax separate as I can probably maintain the 12" clearance
all the way to the antenna.
I have a pretty good idea on the answer but I want to be sure.
Michael Sausen
-10 # 352 wing ribs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
>
>
> Would you care to post some power distribution diagrams that
> describe your architecture. The lack of battery contactors piques
> our interest. You've expressed some interest in management
> of an OV event . . . it seems that elimination of battery contactors
> offers possibilities for some equally exciting failure modes
> that battery contactors are expected to control . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Sorry but my diagrams are in pencil and not very neat ;)
Essentially I have a Z-14 with no battery contactors. My main interest
is two hot battery busses to feed the electrically dependant engine and
I don't ever want to disconnect those engine computers from a battery.
Each of those busses distributes through a 6 fuse fuseblock and has low
voltage warnings. Almost everything else, including the starter, is
routed through a contactor and then a 10 fuse fuseblock. If I open that
contactor then it kills everything but the battery busses which is no
problem as the primary gyros are vacuum operated. I know vacuum is less
reliable but I prefer a six pack and vacuum was affordable at the time.
There is a low vacuum warning. Instead of plumbing an engine intake
manifold backup vacuum source I added a $30. flymarket 28 volt electric
T&B which works just fine on 12volts with surprisingly little change in
rpm or current draw. A handheld vhf and gps backup is available if
needed and one cigarette lighter outlet is powered from a battery bus.
There is an OVM and a B-lead contactor/relay on both the main 40 amp
alternator and the 20 amp PM alternator.
This was fairly carefully considered as appropriate for my needs and a
bit simpler than the stock Z-14. There is no separate starter contactor
but I can still kill power to the automotive starter. This also
eliminates two battery contactors but adds in that one power
distribution contactor. The batteries are wee 8 AH units and the
crossfeed closes for cranking. Since I have 3 busses, all switches are
color keyed red (left battery bus for backup engine controls), blue
(right battery bus for primary engine), and yellow (the switched non
essential) bus. Pilot operating simplicity was very much a
consideration. All warnings (except low fuel and crossfeed closed) are
done with a Grand Rapids EIS.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris & Kellie Hand" <ckhand(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
My RV-6A engine should be ready for me sometime this fall, ordered with an
e-mag/p-mag combination so this thread definitely caught my attention. I
asked them about it, and they have the following posted on the Innovation
section of their web site (http://www.emagair.com/Innovation.htm) :
Q: I read about an occurrence of excessive drive gear wear and your gears
not being certified. Can you elaborate?
A: As stated on order forms and price lists, our drive gears are not
certified gears. We try to replicate certified gears in terms of both their
dimension and their hardness. It was surprising to us (at first) to find
the certified gear we had tested was not hardened. We then realized there
would be advantages in keeping the drive gear (accessible and easy to
replace) unhardened so it will wear before the gear it engages (inside the
engine and much harder to inspect/replace). Of the numerous in-service
gears that have come through our shop, we've seen only one (1) occurrence of
significant wear/deformation of a drive gear. In all likelihood it was
caused by some kind of foreign matter under one side of the flange when it
was clamped down. That would have cocked the unit to one side, preload the
gear, and cause the excessive wear.
They also said you do have the option of using a certified gear if desired,
as I think somebody else pointed out in an earlier reply.
I don't know enough about mag drive gears to know whether certified gears
are or are not hardened, or whether they should be, but am posting this as
additional info on the subject and it sounds like emagair has checked on
that question.
Chris Hand
RV-6A, finishing kit stage
> >Subject: FW: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> >From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
> >
> >Subject: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> >
> >I would suggest, however, that anyone with an Emag or Pmag on their
running engine
> >remove them to examine the gear for wear/damage. Maybe my gear was
an anomaly
> >- god knows that I seem to have more than my fair share of them,
but if there
> >was a bad run of gears, folks should check to make sure that
they're not
> >making metal in their engines, too. Try to file a tip of one gear
tooth - if
> >the file takes off metal, it's not hardened. Check with YOUR
engine experts to
> >see if they concur that it SHOULD be hardened - that's what Ken and
his two
> >guys said.
> >
> >Marc J. Zeitlin
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
Though I have not spoken yet with anyone knowlegdgeable about this news, your answer
agrees well with my initial impression: the gear is so lightly loaded in
this application (turning an optical encoder wheel in the E-mag and also a light-duty,
rarely-loaded alternator in the P-Mag) that accelerated wear seems mechanically
impossible so long as alignment is correct. If alignment is off,
it's anyone's guess how well the gear would fare, and you'd be glad the soft gear
took the punishment.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris & Kellie Hand <ckhand(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
My RV-6A engine should be ready for me sometime this fall, ordered with an
e-mag/p-mag combination so this thread definitely caught my attention. I
asked them about it, and they have the following posted on the Innovation
section of their web site (http://www.emagair.com/Innovation.htm) :
Q: I read about an occurrence of excessive drive gear wear and your gears
not being certified. Can you elaborate?
A: As stated on order forms and price lists, our drive gears are not
certified gears. We try to replicate certified gears in terms of both their
dimension and their hardness. It was surprising to us (at first) to find
the certified gear we had tested was not hardened. We then realized there
would be advantages in keeping the drive gear (accessible and easy to
replace) unhardened so it will wear before the gear it engages (inside the
engine and much harder to inspect/replace). Of the numerous in-service
gears that have come through our shop, we've seen only one (1) occurrence of
significant wear/deformation of a drive gear. In all likelihood it was
caused by some kind of foreign matter under one side of the flange when it
was clamped down. That would have cocked the unit to one side, preload the
gear, and cause the excessive wear.
They also said you do have the option of using a certified gear if desired,
as I think somebody else pointed out in an earlier reply.
I don't know enough about mag drive gears to know whether certified gears
are or are not hardened, or whether they should be, but am posting this as
additional info on the subject and it sounds like emagair has checked on
that question.
Chris Hand
RV-6A, finishing kit stage
> >Subject: FW: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> >From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
> >
> >Subject: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> >
> >I would suggest, however, that anyone with an Emag or Pmag on their
running engine
> >remove them to examine the gear for wear/damage. Maybe my gear was
an anomaly
> >- god knows that I seem to have more than my fair share of them,
but if there
> >was a bad run of gears, folks should check to make sure that
they're not
> >making metal in their engines, too. Try to file a tip of one gear
tooth - if
> >the file takes off metal, it's not hardened. Check with YOUR
engine experts to
> >see if they concur that it SHOULD be hardened - that's what Ken and
his two
> >guys said.
> >
> >Marc J. Zeitlin
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Was wire run questions - now Archer antenna |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
That's interesting. Dan Checkoway, I believe you didn't run your wires across
the antenna. How's it working for you?
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 wing ribs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rsipp(at)earthlink.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire run questions
Mike:
Regarding #2)
I asked Bob Archer the same question regarding the large 10 wing tip and the opportunity
to run the wires away from the nav antenna. His response was not to
do this and to follow the instructions and intentionally run all the other tip
wiring along the angled leg of the antenna. He sent updated instructions that
emphasize this.
Dick Sipp
RV4 700 hours
RV10 40065
-----Original Message-----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
0.06 HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY BODY": aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire run questions
-->
Ok, got a couple questions on how to run some of my wing wiring. Breaks down to
these two things:
1) Is it necessary (other than just a good idea) to run the nav coax (RG400) away
from the pitot (16ga), strobe (shielded), and landing light (18ga to HID local
ballast) power lines. I have plenty of places in my ribs where I could move
the coax about 12" away from the power lines. I'm already running the trim
with the pitot and AOA air lines which are about another 6" away from the power
runs. Basically it would look something like this
( | . . . >
if I split them up with the first period being the pitot air, then the power,
and finally the coax.
2) I am using the Archer nav antennas and have a ton of room in my wingtip allowing
me to mount the antenna way aft of the lights. If the LED power and strobe
wires don't cross the antenna, or even come near it, do I need to be concerned
with running them along the antenna? If the answer is no, it gives me more
incentive to run the nav coax separate as I can probably maintain the 12" clearance
all the way to the antenna.
I have a pretty good idea on the answer but I want to be sure.
Michael Sausen
-10 # 352 wing ribs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Cross <bcross2160(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
Hi Folks
I just wanted to comment on a problem I had been having for 6 years on my
aircraft. This is in response to a previous post I made about 3 weeks ago
& Kevin Horton & Ken Klehman were kind enough to supply some advice.
The electrical system is a classic Nuckolls system. It is very similar to
Z-1 as published in 1996. This is a simple system with a linear
regulator, mine is a B&C LR-3B. I did not use a toggle switch but a
standard aircraft key switch & Cessna style Battery/Alternator Master switch.
My helper during construction was a very bright guy who has his masters in
Elec. Engineering. The electrical installation is really really good due
to his work. He even used waxed lacing for wire ties which looks and
performs beautifully. Only 1 operational problem right from day one which
was July 25, 1999.
I was having so much fun flying etc. that I did not work too hard to solve
it as it did not keep me out of the air but bugged me as I know it was not
right.
The problem was the system voltage peaked at about 13.8 V and decreased
each time I added a load of any kind to the system. Each load would drop
the system load by about 0.1-0.2 volts. I could easily drop the system
voltage down to 12.8-12.9 volts but as most of my flying was day VFR, it
rarely got there.
I have an EI gauge to show volts/amps & also my Garmin 195 would display
the same. (I reasoned that it made sense to have the EI gauge mounted on
the Essential bus as I would want to know the condition of the battery if I
had to feed the E bus directly per the alternate feed switch if the
alternator went down). I did realize that my EI gauge was fed from the
Essential bus and therefore would read a lower voltage due to the drop
across the bridge rectifier which feeds the Essential bus from the Main
bus, (or buss?). I also checked it with 2 portable digital multimeters
which did not show anything was wrong with the readings. I also adjusted
the trim pot on the regulator which did not help very much.
I changed belts for the alternator, discussed the matter with B&C &
followed the trouble shooting specs. as supplied which were all within the
stated limits. Finally I decided in my finite wisdom that it must be the
regulator so I purchased a new reg. at $228 from B&C and installed it with
high hopes. As you probably guessed, I restarted the engine and the
numbers were EXACTLY the same. What a downer!
I posted my problem 3 weeks ago as I mentioned. Kevin suggested that I
move the feed point of the EI gauge to the Main bus. This helped but still
the drop continued. Ken suggested that I check all the points from the
alternator back to the main bus i.e. look for voltage drops at each
connection starting with the B lead and so forth. I did realize that I was
working with a digital multimeter and was testing the system with no load
applied during the resistance check & does not represent real life but I
did turn loads on the see if that would show any voltage drop. All
resistance drops were less than 1 ohm & therefore could see nothing obvious.
I called B&C again and Tim Johnson suggested a similar course of action as
per Ken & Kevin. However, his ears perked up when I mentioned my master
switch. He said that may be a problem.
Sure enough, I bypassed the master switch & the 5A feed breaker, (per Z-1),
running a jumper from the Main bus directly to pin #6 on the regulator
which is feed for the alternator field voltage & voil, after 6 years with
13 something volts max, I had 14.2-14.4 volts. I could not believe
it. After many more minutes with rudder pedals digging into my head,
torque tube in my back & sweat in my eyes, I only bypassed the Cessna
switch & the results were the same.
Now I am happily flying with a spare reg., no switch to turn the alternator
off & on except for thebreaker in the system which I can pull out if I need
to & making the voltage output I had always wanted.
Sure makes you think though, the wonderful brand new certified part in my
system was causing undue voltage drop across the switch itself & thereby
depressing my system voltage by up to 1.5 volts.
Many thanks to Kevin & Ken for sending me in the right direction & to B&C
as well who were great. I must say my little brain was still confused as I
assumed that the regulator sensing a lower than optimal voltage would
adjust the alternator field voltage upwards enough to compensate. At
Oshkosh, Bill Bainbridge immediately handed me his cell phone after dialing
up Tim Johnson & Tim explained that in theory this was correct but the
regulator may not have enough output ability to boost the system voltage
back to the proper range as the reg. was starting with a lower voltage.
So, the moral of the story, do not use certificated parts on your amateur
built aircraft, (kidding). Seriously forget the master switch & use toggle
switches. I am stuck with this rectangular hole cut into my panel &
wondering if I really want to pull it out & fill the area neatly somehow
with 2 toggle switches. Come to think of it, why did I buy a key switch in
the first place? I should have used toggles there as well.
Sorry to post such a long email. I do really hope this helps people in
designing a simple, inexpensive, easy to maintain & trouble free
panel. With the above changes, by Simple Z diagram is faultless.
Again many thanks to the above mentioned gentlemen & of course Bob Nuckolls
for a great system.
Now, back to building my RV-8.
Cheers
Brian Cross # 81844
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | AMP connector pin source |
Hi,
I'm trying to locate a website where I can buy
AMP pins that go into a strobe AMP connector.
I'm sure someplace like Digikey has them, but
I can't find them on their website.
What I'm looking for is just the pins on
this page:
http://strobeguy.safeshopper.com/32/1901.htm?949
I've got a bunch that I bought from Steinair,
but they are not the same shape. Here is a photo:
http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=200508201734405
Thanks for any hints, or part numbers, or official
unique names!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gert <gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AMP connector pin source |
just bought a bunch, to go with creativeair's strobe supply, from Digi-key
both for 20-14Awg, PhosphorBronze, pre-tin.
male pins A25561-ND
female pins A25562-ND
I also got some more 3 pin housings, A1400-ND pin housing and A25415-ND
socket housing, socket housing comes only in black from digi-key.
hope this helps.
Gert
they are on my Dec04 catalog, page 116&117, Commercial Mate-N-Lok connectors
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm trying to locate a website where I can buy
>AMP pins that go into a strobe AMP connector.
>
>I'm sure someplace like Digikey has them, but
>I can't find them on their website.
>
>What I'm looking for is just the pins on
>this page:
>
>http://strobeguy.safeshopper.com/32/1901.htm?949
>
>I've got a bunch that I bought from Steinair,
>but they are not the same shape. Here is a photo:
>
>http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=200508201734405
>
>Thanks for any hints, or part numbers, or official
>unique names!
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
On 20-Aug-05 09:28 Brian Cross wrote:
> Seriously forget the master switch & use toggle
> switches. I am stuck with this rectangular hole cut into my panel &
> wondering if I really want to pull it out & fill the area neatly somehow
> with 2 toggle switches. Come to think of it, why did I buy a key switch in
> the first place? I should have used toggles there as well.
>
Brian,
Thanks for sharing your troubleshooting and eventual success story.
Your finding is a great one to file away in my "bag of tricks".
Some prefer a Cessna-style ignition switch but like you I'd rather have
individual switches. I retrofitted my Long-EZ with a pushbutton (from
the aviation section of Walmart) for the starter and two guarded toggles
("racing parts" from AutoZone) for the magnetos. A small aluminum panel
will cover the large hole and allow you to mount your new switches if
you have the room. (YMMV; I couldn't fit everything in one place so I
used two aluminum panels in my aircraft.)
Before:
http://nicon.org/chapter328/jd/images/IgnitionSwBefore.jpg
After:
http://nicon.org/chapter328/jd/images/IgnitionSwAfter.jpg
--
Joe
Long-EZ 821RP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Transponder Certification |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Jim Baker"
<<......skip....... FSDO and they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have
to
undergo the same inspections and checks that it would if it were installed
in
a GA plane.>>
Not if you don't want to. Jim Baker
8/19/2005
Hello Jim Baker, Are you saying that despite FAR Sec. 91.215 and FAR Sec.
91.413 that an ultralight owner / pilot can install just any old non TSO'd
and non currently inspected transponder that may be incompatible with ATC
equipment and fly around legally in the USA controlled airspace?
Please clarify. Thanks.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "chris macy" <luckymacy(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | recharge/jump start recepticle |
Hi,
I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery from outside
the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom of the fuse
and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I want the wire sized to be
able to handle the current of a jump start and bolted to the battery just like
the start/ground cables are. I am not aware I've seen something like this
before except for a bigger version like an APU jack in military aircraft but that's
overkill for an RV. But I thought I heard it discussed in past years on
the list but my archive search didn't turn up anything. I was hoping West Marine
would have something similar but I didn't find anything.
Any ideas?
thx,
lucky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Cross <bcross2160(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
Hi Joe
Thanks very much for your great pictures & your thoughts. You did a great
job moving your switches around. I don't feel quite so silly for putting
the parts in that I did.
Happy flying
Brian
At 02:43 PM 8/20/2005, you wrote:
>
>On 20-Aug-05 09:28 Brian Cross wrote:
>
>
> > Seriously forget the master switch & use toggle
> > switches. I am stuck with this rectangular hole cut into my panel &
> > wondering if I really want to pull it out & fill the area neatly somehow
> > with 2 toggle switches. Come to think of it, why did I buy a key
> switch in
> > the first place? I should have used toggles there as well.
> >
>
>Brian,
>
>Thanks for sharing your troubleshooting and eventual success story.
>Your finding is a great one to file away in my "bag of tricks".
>
>Some prefer a Cessna-style ignition switch but like you I'd rather have
>individual switches. I retrofitted my Long-EZ with a pushbutton (from
>the aviation section of Walmart) for the starter and two guarded toggles
>("racing parts" from AutoZone) for the magnetos. A small aluminum panel
>will cover the large hole and allow you to mount your new switches if
>you have the room. (YMMV; I couldn't fit everything in one place so I
>used two aluminum panels in my aircraft.)
>
>Before:
> http://nicon.org/chapter328/jd/images/IgnitionSwBefore.jpg
>
>After:
> http://nicon.org/chapter328/jd/images/IgnitionSwAfter.jpg
>
>--
>Joe
>Long-EZ 821RP
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder Certification |
> <<......skip....... FSDO and they said I could do it, but the XPDR
> will have to undergo the same inspections and checks that it would
if
> it were installed in a GA plane.>>
>
> Not if you don't want to. Jim Baker
>
> 8/19/2005
>
> Hello Jim Baker, Are you saying that despite FAR Sec. 91.215 and
FAR
> Sec. 91.413 that an ultralight owner / pilot can install just any old
> non TSO'd and non currently inspected transponder that may be
> incompatible with ATC equipment and fly around legally in the USA
> controlled airspace?
>
> Please clarify. Thanks.
Well....sort of. 91.215 says US registered civil aircraft. Find where
anyone, let alone the FAA, ever defines a part 103 vehicle as an
aircraft. They are routinely refered to as ultralight vehicles by part
103.
It then follows that if not applicable under 91.215, then 91.413
doesn't apply either.
Having said that, it seems that part 103.17, Operations in Certain
Airspace, would make it wise (well, more than wise actually), but not
mandatory, to have a unit that is capable of "data correspondence"
per 91.413, if your intent is to be precisely known as to location in the
ATC system. But again, it isn't mandated. The FAA did this to
themselves with the vehicle designation....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
Hi Chris,
See Aeroelectric Connection by Bob Nucolls. There is a paper that
describes an external connection compatible with many FBO's APUs that
you can build into your RV. That is what I built into my -6A and I use
it all the time when I want to run the avionics in the hangar. It would
serve for battery charging, etc. also.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A flying
chris macy wrote:
>
>Hi,
>I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery from outside
the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
>
>What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom of the fuse
and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I want the wire sized to
be able to handle the current of a jump start and bolted to the battery just like
the start/ground cables are. I am not aware I've seen something like this
before except for a bigger version like an APU jack in military aircraft but
that's overkill for an RV. But I thought I heard it discussed in past years on
the list but my archive search didn't turn up anything. I was hoping West Marine
would have something similar but I didn't find anything.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>thx,
>lucky
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry McFarland <larrymc(at)qconline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
Chris,
You might start in the Aircraft Spruce Catalog and look for the Piper
Type Socket p/n 11-00500
as one example. There are others on that page too. Bob Nuckoll's
Aeroelectric Connection site has schematics
for the particular installation you describe and it is good for jump
start and charging batteries as well.
I chose to put in two lighter sockets on a plate and place them in the
belly so that I can use battery tenders
for separate battery maintenence without the capacity to jump the
battery. I don't really want to fly a plane that
has to be jump started.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/chargeportassy2.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/chargeportmount2.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/chargeplugs.gif
The bottom has a removable plate cover with 2 dzus fasteners to seal it
when not being used.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
chris macy wrote:
>
>Hi,
>I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery from outside
the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
>
>What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom of the fuse
and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I want the wire sized to
be able to handle the current of a jump start and bolted to the battery just like
the start/ground cables are. I am not aware I've seen something like this
before except for a bigger version like an APU jack in military aircraft but
that's overkill for an RV. But I thought I heard it discussed in past years on
the list but my archive search didn't turn up anything. I was hoping West Marine
would have something similar but I didn't find anything.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>thx,
>lucky
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Stone" <jsto1(at)tampabay.rr.com> |
| Subject: | recharge/jump start recepticle |
You could consider either a Piper or Cessna auxillary power jack. I got
a complete salvaged jack system for my C172 from Wentworth for about
$125, but that was years ago. It included the brackets, contactor, and
harness. I have also seen just the jacks and plugs in AC Spruce (ACS),
without brackets or control system.
ACS has the AN2552-3A external power receptacle designed to mount in
hole in skin of aircraft. Hole is then covered with hinged access door
(not included). Mates with AN2551 type plugs. Model 4621B, JUMPER PLUG
#6216.
Jim Stone
Jabiru J450
Clearwater FL.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
macy
Subject: AeroElectric-List: recharge/jump start recepticle
-->
Hi,
I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery
from outside the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom of
the fuse and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I want the
wire sized to be able to handle the current of a jump start and bolted
to the battery just like the start/ground cables are. I am not aware
I've seen something like this before except for a bigger version like an
APU jack in military aircraft but that's overkill for an RV. But I
thought I heard it discussed in past years on the list but my archive
search didn't turn up anything. I was hoping West Marine would have
something similar but I didn't find anything.
Any ideas?
thx,
lucky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com> |
Hello AeroElectric subscribers,
I'm about to begin the wiring for my RV-4. Considered BMA's printed circut board
and PTC switch idea, but decided that was too expensive for my 12 circuits (about
$2K). Have ordered a Blue Sea 5026 fuse block ($40) and will use Bob's concept
of fly now, fix on the ground!
I have the following for the panel:
Dynon D10A
MicroAir T2000 transponder
XCOM Radio with built-in intercom
Flightcom i300
Pictorial Pilot wing leveler
Altrak altitude hold
GRT EIS
Narco 122D VOR/GS with marker beacon
Garmin 296
***Considering digital altimeter with encoder vs Dynons encoder or AK 350***
I have cables and pro-hub from Approach Systems for the XCOM, Transponder and Narco.
My question is what do I do to wire up the stick-grip push buttons? (PTT, Autopilot,
starter, electric fuel pump, radio frequency change)... how many can go
straight to a fuse, vs being regulated before going to the device?
The Blue Sea has 12 return ground terminals. Should I use these or run a seperate
ground block?
Appreciate your thoughts.
Ron
N8ZD - flying soon
n8zd(at)yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring an RV-4 |
>
>Hello AeroElectric subscribers,
>
>I'm about to begin the wiring for my RV-4. Considered BMA's printed circut
>board and PTC switch idea, but decided that was too expensive for my 12
>circuits (about $2K).
That's interesting. I didn't know he had actually put
a price on it and was offering it for sale. Of course
we also don't know what all was in the "kit" but $2.000
is a real stretch given what others supply in their
pre-wired, switch panel products for less than half that.
More importantly, the product as last illustrated in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/response_1.pdf
was a long way from being a production offering as it was
plagued with many electrical and mechanical issues.
> Have ordered a Blue Sea 5026 fuse block ($40) and will use Bob's concept
> of fly now, fix on the ground!
>
>I have the following for the panel:
>
>Dynon D10A
>MicroAir T2000 transponder
>XCOM Radio with built-in intercom
>Flightcom i300
>Pictorial Pilot wing leveler
>Altrak altitude hold
>GRT EIS
>Narco 122D VOR/GS with marker beacon
>Garmin 296
>***Considering digital altimeter with encoder vs Dynons encoder or AK 350***
>
>I have cables and pro-hub from Approach Systems for the XCOM, Transponder
>and Narco.
>
>My question is what do I do to wire up the stick-grip push buttons? (PTT,
>Autopilot, starter, electric fuel pump, radio frequency change)... how
>many can go straight to a fuse, vs being regulated before going to the device?
It's not necessary for ANY of the stick-grip wires to
carry supply current. Given the small size of stick grip
switches and wires, it's better to have the stick grip
control the accessory system by GROUNDING. Current
flowing in the stick grip switches should be in
the 100mA to 1A range. Unless the accessory system
can be directly controlled by grounding (like xmit
PTT) then some form of control relays are called for
like the relay decks offered by many for things like
trim servos.
>The Blue Sea has 12 return ground terminals. Should I use these or run a
>seperate ground block?
This will probably not be enough. Have you read the grounding
chapter in the 'Connection Also check out the avionics/panel
grounding concept in chapter 18.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
>
>Hi Chris,
>See Aeroelectric Connection by Bob Nucolls. There is a paper that
>describes an external connection compatible with many FBO's APUs that
>you can build into your RV. That is what I built into my -6A and I use
>it all the time when I want to run the avionics in the hangar. It would
>serve for battery charging, etc. also.
See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
I'm told that Cole-Hersee now offers the same power jack
with a threaded post so that the modification proposed
in the article is not necessary.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NSI New Chief Engineer |
>Eric -What happened to Paul's effort with the ghost company (I don't recall
>him ever parting with the name) to develop a "next generation aircraft
>electrical system"... or something along those lines? Did he/they
>shelve the design, scrap it, or is it now in his 'side work' pile?
>Inquiring minds want to know (... well... mine does, anyway).
>Pass along a congrats on the new gig! D
The Ghost Company was NSI. (I would have paid money to see Paul and Lance
Wheeler argue with each other.) The Next Generation electrical system is
not first priority since NSI is in real trouble--"Bigger than you can
imagine trouble."
The Yahoo subie groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/E-SubieForum/) have
more information.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
(Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
Stormy,
Your idyllic vision of the gear's life would be true, IF we were dealing with
"constant combustion" (turbine or jet) engines. However, our Lycomings are 4 cylinder
"intermittent combustion" engines. The gears need to be hardened to take
the constant "jack hammering" they receive due to this process. This process
is also what made both Lycoming and Continental quit making geared piston engines.
Charlie Kuss
---- sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Though I have not spoken yet with anyone knowlegdgeable about this news, your
answer agrees well with my initial impression: the gear is so lightly loaded
in this application (turning an optical encoder wheel in the E-mag and also a
light-duty, rarely-loaded alternator in the P-Mag) that accelerated wear seems
mechanically impossible so long as alignment is correct. If alignment is off,
it's anyone's guess how well the gear would fare, and you'd be glad the soft
gear took the punishment.
>
> -Stormy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris & Kellie Hand <ckhand(at)earthlink.net>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
>
>
>
>
> My RV-6A engine should be ready for me sometime this fall, ordered with an
> e-mag/p-mag combination so this thread definitely caught my attention. I
> asked them about it, and they have the following posted on the Innovation
> section of their web site (http://www.emagair.com/Innovation.htm) :
>
> Q: I read about an occurrence of excessive drive gear wear and your gears
> not being certified. Can you elaborate?
>
> A: As stated on order forms and price lists, our drive gears are not
> certified gears. We try to replicate certified gears in terms of both their
> dimension and their hardness. It was surprising to us (at first) to find
> the certified gear we had tested was not hardened. We then realized there
> would be advantages in keeping the drive gear (accessible and easy to
> replace) unhardened so it will wear before the gear it engages (inside the
> engine and much harder to inspect/replace). Of the numerous in-service
> gears that have come through our shop, we've seen only one (1) occurrence of
> significant wear/deformation of a drive gear. In all likelihood it was
> caused by some kind of foreign matter under one side of the flange when it
> was clamped down. That would have cocked the unit to one side, preload the
> gear, and cause the excessive wear.
>
>
> They also said you do have the option of using a certified gear if desired,
> as I think somebody else pointed out in an earlier reply.
>
> I don't know enough about mag drive gears to know whether certified gears
> are or are not hardened, or whether they should be, but am posting this as
> additional info on the subject and it sounds like emagair has checked on
> that question.
>
> Chris Hand
> RV-6A, finishing kit stage
>
> > >Subject: FW: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> > >From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
> > >
> > >Subject: [c-a] Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> > >
> > >I would suggest, however, that anyone with an Emag or Pmag on their
> running engine
> > >remove them to examine the gear for wear/damage. Maybe my gear was
> an anomaly
> > >- god knows that I seem to have more than my fair share of them,
> but if there
> > >was a bad run of gears, folks should check to make sure that
> they're not
> > >making metal in their engines, too. Try to file a tip of one gear
> tooth - if
> > >the file takes off metal, it's not hardened. Check with YOUR
> engine experts to
> > >see if they concur that it SHOULD be hardened - that's what Ken and
> his two
> > >guys said.
> > >
> > >Marc J. Zeitlin
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
Good Morning Charlie,
I know this is way out of any field of expertise that I may have, but I
wonder if we may not be discussing apples and oranges here?
It would seem to me that those gears in the back of the engine would
encounter much lower stresses than those used to gear down a propellor shaft.
As the
gear only needs to deliver a timing function, I would think that a gear that
had been designed to drive a magneto would have a lot more strength than is
required to drive the timing device needed by the E or P mag unit.
Reduction gearing on the older Lycomings has proven very reliable. So much
so that most engines of that era are overhauled often with nothing being done
to the reduction gears other than careful inspection.
The multi-cylinder radials that powered our piston airline fleets attained
amazingly long gear lives even though they were under very high stresses.
Admittedly, the power pulses came a lot closer together on eighteen cylinder
engines than they do on a four banger, but it does seem that those back of the
engine gears should not have to be terribly sophisticated entities.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 8/21/2005 10:17:28 AM Central Standard Time,
chaztuna(at)adelphia.net writes:
Stormy,
Your idyllic vision of the gear's life would be true, IF we were dealing with
"constant combustion" (turbine or jet) engines. However, our Lycomings are 4
cylinder "intermittent combustion" engines. The gears need to be hardened to
take the constant "jack hammering" they receive due to this process. This
process is also what made both Lycoming and Continental quit making geared piston
engines.
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bob -
We installed your ground power system in addition to the Z-14 in our
Lancair ES. I bought a small power supply on eBay that you had recommended
(12V nominal that had been set to 13.5V by the seller). We use it all the
time to check out the electrical system and instrumentation. Great setup.
Works great.
I would like to use the external power receptacle to plug in a battery
charger/maintainer. It should work well to charge/maintain the #1 battery
when just the ground power switch/cb is on and the contactor is closed.
This means we give up .8 amp off the top of the charger's capacity.
However, the problem comes when we want to charge/maintain the #2 battery.
By using the external power jack, we have to have all four of the
contactors closed - giving up 3.2 amps. The entire electrical system of
the aircraft would be hot while the batteries charge. We then worry about
one battery being over charged if the other one is lower. Any
tender/maintainer will stay on the charge cycle until it senses the lowest
battery at the peak charge before going to the maintain mode. Correct?
Question: Is it a good idea to use the ground power system to charge and
maintain the batteries?
If so, can you recommend a maintainer and a circuit change that can do
the job?
Or, would it be better to just add 4 more wires and a couple of plugs to
the batteries and use two of the smaller tenders?
Many thanks,
John Schroeder
Lancair ES 85%
wrote:
> See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
> I'm told that Cole-Hersee now offers the same power jack
> with a threaded post so that the modification proposed
> in the article is not necessary.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | AMP connector pin source |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
<>
8/21/2005
Hello Mickey, I think you may be mixing up Molex and AMP pins and
connectors. Just make sure that you are using the pins and plastic connector
shells from the same manufacturer.
If you are sure that your plastic shells are AMP Mate N Lok brand then you
can get compatible pins from Terminal Town http://www.terminaltown.com/
Pay very close attention to part numbers.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
Idyllic or not, we'll all have to wait and see what the longer term field experience
is with these gears. For me, the most relevant point is that made by Brad,
who states the Lycoming gears they were copying were also not case-hardened.
If that's correct, we're probably looking at an isolated failure here. Time
will tell.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
Stormy,
Your idyllic vision of the gear's life would be true, IF we were dealing with
"constant combustion" (turbine or jet) engines. However, our Lycomings are 4
cylinder "intermittent combustion" engines. The gears need to be hardened to
take the constant "jack hammering" they receive due to this process. This
process is also what made both Lycoming and Continental quit making geared
piston engines.
Charlie Kuss
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AMP connector pin source |
Amp commercial Mate-N-Lock connectors.
Here are the Digi-key part numbers.
A1400-ND CONN RECEPT/CAP 3 POS MATE-N-LOK
A1429-ND CONN PLUG 3POS MATE-N-LOK
A1422-ND CONN PIN 18-24AWG TIN CRIMP
A1423-ND CONN SOCKET 18-24AWG TIN CRIMP
I also used 2-pin and 4-pin versions of these (4-pin is good for strobe
wing root disconnect).
Vern Little RV-9A
bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
>
>
><AMP pins that go into a strobe AMP connector.
>
>I'm sure someplace like Digikey has them, but
>I can't find them on their website.
>
>What I'm looking for is just the pins on
>this page:......skip........
>
>Thanks for any hints, or part numbers, or official
>unique names! Mickey Coggins>>
>
>8/21/2005
>
>Hello Mickey, I think you may be mixing up Molex and AMP pins and
>connectors. Just make sure that you are using the pins and plastic connector
>shells from the same manufacturer.
>
>If you are sure that your plastic shells are AMP Mate N Lok brand then you
>can get compatible pins from Terminal Town http://www.terminaltown.com/
>
>Pay very close attention to part numbers.
>
>OC
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gert <gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AMP connector pin source |
there is a difference between regular Mate-N-Lock and *Commercial*
Mate-N-Lock.
the strobes had the Commercial variety of Mate-n-Lock connectors, once I
figured that out getting additional items was easy.
I believe SteinAir sells the regular Mate-N-Lock, I know, I bought some
of his 2, for a different purpose.
bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
>
>
><AMP pins that go into a strobe AMP connector.
>
>I'm sure someplace like Digikey has them, but
>I can't find them on their website.
>
>What I'm looking for is just the pins on
>this page:......skip........
>
>Thanks for any hints, or part numbers, or official
>unique names! Mickey Coggins>>
>
>8/21/2005
>
>Hello Mickey, I think you may be mixing up Molex and AMP pins and
>connectors. Just make sure that you are using the pins and plastic connector
>shells from the same manufacturer.
>
>If you are sure that your plastic shells are AMP Mate N Lok brand then you
>can get compatible pins from Terminal Town http://www.terminaltown.com/
>
>Pay very close attention to part numbers.
>
>OC
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Battery In Tail Questions |
First off, I'd like to make the statement that I am a "noob" when it
comes to some of these things, but I am slowly putting things together
after reading The Connection and lurking here. So be gentle if I use
some incorrect "terminology". :)
I will most likely have some form of Z-13. At this point most likely a
Z-13/Z-30 derivative. The dual bats will be in the tail.
I believe that a good place to establish the main power distribution bus
connection is to connect from the starter contactor. Maybe an ANL
between? Is that correct?
My biggest sticking point is with the bat bus and aux bat bus being in
the tail. The feeds to the bat/aux bat bus items along with the e-bus
alt feed will have to run the length of the fuse. I read in The
Connection that it is wise to run all these wires along one side of the
plane (Page-7 Note 5)? Is it ok to have all the large and small wires
routed together in one conduit? Are there other issues I have to be
concerned with?
Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it and as long as my fuses
and wires are properly sized, the battery buses being located in the
tail will be just fine? I guess I just need confirmation that I'm on
the right track and maybe a few "gotchas" that I need to look out for.
Thanks All...
-Sean RV-10 #40303
http://rv10.stephensville.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | courierboy(at)earthlink.net |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
>
>Hi,
>I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery
>from outside the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
>
>What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom
>of the fuse and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I
>want the wire sized to be able to handle the current of a jump start
>and bolted to the battery just like the start/ground cables are. I
>am not aware I've seen something like this before except for a
>bigger version like an APU jack in military aircraft but that's
>overkill for an RV. But I thought I heard it discussed in past
>years on the list but my archive search didn't turn up anything. I
>was hoping West Marine would have something similar but I didn't
>find anything.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>thx,
>lucky
lucky -
This is not exactly what you describe but worth looking at:
http://solanopilots.com/quickjumpsolution.htm
Find more ideas at the AEC web site at "How to Articles" under
"Downloadable Reference Materials". Click on "Low Cost Ground Power
Jack for Your Airplane"
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky) |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
Thanks for all the responses. I ordered the Piper receptical and plug from ACS.
It's just what I was looking for and the link below confirmed it. I think
it can easily work for both a battery tender and jump starter.
Lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
>
> >
> >Hi,
> >I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery
> >from outside the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
> >
> >What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom
> >of the fuse and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I
> >want the wire sized to be able to handle the current of a jump start
> >and bolted to the battery just like the start/ground cables are. I
> >am not aware I've seen something like this before except for a
> >bigger version like an APU jack in military aircraft but that's
> >overkill for an RV. But I thought I heard it discussed in past
> >years on the list but my archive search didn't turn up anything. I
> >was hoping West Marine would have something similar but I didn't
> >find anything.
> >
> >Any ideas?
> >
> >thx,
> >lucky
>
>
> lucky -
>
> This is not exactly what you describe but worth looking at:
> http://solanopilots.com/quickjumpsolution.htm
>
> Find more ideas at the AEC web site at "How to Articles" under
> "Downloadable Reference Materials". Click on "Low Cost Ground Power
> Jack for Your Airplane"
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks for all the responses. I ordered the Piper receptical and plug from ACS.
It's just what I waslooking for and the link below confirmed it. I think it can
easily work for both a battery tender and jump starter.
Lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: courierboy(at)earthlink.net
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "chris macy"
Hi,
I'm looking for a way to be able to recharge or jumpstart my battery
from outside the plane which is in the back of an RV8.
What I have in mind is a receptacle which is flush with the bottom
of the fuse and has a rubber plug to seal it while not in use. I
want the wire sized to be able to handle the current of a jump start
and bolted to the battery just like the start/ground cables are. I
am not aware I've seen something like this before except for a
bigger version like an APU jack in military aircraft but that's
overkill for an RV. But I thought I heard it discussed in past
years on the list but my archive search didn't turn up anything. I
was hoping West Marine would have something similar but I didn't
find anything.
Any ideas?
thx,
lucky
lucky -
This is not exactly what you describe but worth looking at:
http://solanopilots.com/quickjumpsolution.htm
Find more ideas at the AEC web site at "How to Articles" under
"Downloadable Reference Materials". Click on "Low Cost Ground Power
Jack for Your Airplane"
Bill
criptions page,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | IR Alternator OVP |
Suppose one installed an internally regulated alternator and wanted overvoltage
protection.
Suppose the alternator has a B lead to power the bus, a S lead to sense voltage
on the bus and adjust the alternator output, and a "G" lead for grounding.
Question 1 - would breaking the ground wire cause the alternator to quit?
Question 2 - If so, then could one have a sensor on the B lead that, during an
overvoltage, would command a contactor in the ground wire to open and thus shut
down the alternator?
Question 3 - Could said contactor be a solid state relay instead?
Ready for the flames.
Stan Sutterfield
RV-8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Messinger" <paulm(at)olypen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IR Alternator OVP |
The common alternators are not wired that way.
There is a I lead that is alternator control when it is working properly and
opening and closing the I lead turns on and off the output power coming from
the "B" terminal.
The L terminal is part of the so called IDIOT light in autos and really only
a ground lead for a light.
Some also have a S lead for remote voltage sensing so voltage drop from the
B lead to the battery can be allowed for.
The ground is the alternator case and not something to be controlled.
The problem with internally regulated alternators is IF (extremely rare) the
internal power transistor in the internal field lead shorts there is no way
to remove field power and the B lead will become a constant current source
and the 55 amp alternator will try to provide 70 or more amps. The B lead
voltage will quickly rise until the system bus absorbs 70 amps. The battery
(once fully charged) will not clamp the voltage and in many cases the
voltage rises from 14v to over 24 volts at around 1/2 volt per second and
can end up over 30 volts if that is what is needed to load the alternator.
Its true the 70 amps will decrease as the voltage rises but in the interim
your electrical system is subject to massive failure from overvoltage if
nothing is done.
The OVP designs floating around including aeroelectric list have
demonstrated on Vans aircraft to apparently create alternator failures. The
problem may be the contactor used and the common contactor is not designed
for and will NOT work reliably in this application. Only a contactor
designed for this application will work and one device is the Kilovac unit
that is rated for the very high arcing voltages present.
The redesigned NSI system will have a reliable OV protection option.
Lots more later but you are much more likely to have an engine failure than
an alternator High voltage output failure. Current solid state technology is
not cost effective (for the B lead circuit) but costs are dropping.
Paul
PS I have thrown my flamethrower in the trash given my new position at NSI.
There are no dumb questions just dumb replys. An educated pilot is a safer
pilot.
----- Original Message -----
From: <speedy11(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: IR Alternator OVP
>
>
> Suppose one installed an internally regulated alternator and wanted
> overvoltage protection.
> Suppose the alternator has a B lead to power the bus, a S lead to sense
> voltage on the bus and adjust the alternator output, and a "G" lead for
> grounding.
> Question 1 - would breaking the ground wire cause the alternator to quit?
> Question 2 - If so, then could one have a sensor on the B lead that,
> during an overvoltage, would command a contactor in the ground wire to
> open and thus shut down the alternator?
> Question 3 - Could said contactor be a solid state relay instead?
> Ready for the flames.
> Stan Sutterfield
> RV-8A
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IR Alternator OVP |
speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Suppose one installed an internally regulated alternator and wanted overvoltage
protection.
>Suppose the alternator has a B lead to power the bus, a S lead to sense voltage
on the bus and adjust the alternator output, and a "G" lead for grounding.
>Question 1 - would breaking the ground wire cause the alternator to quit?
>Question 2 - If so, then could one have a sensor on the B lead that, during an
overvoltage, would command a contactor in the ground wire to open and thus shut
down the alternator?
>Question 3 - Could said contactor be a solid state relay instead?
>Ready for the flames.
>Stan Sutterfield
>RV-8A
>
It's likely that the case is common with the G terminal. You can check
with an ohm meter. Even if it isn't, there would be no advantage to
breaking the ground because the same current flows in the return path as
the B+ path. As long as the solid state relay can handle the voltage &
current, sure, it will work.
(There are all kinds of subtle reasons why you can and/or can't do any
of the above, but the experts would have to kill you if they explained
it.) < obligatory :-) >
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Cable Connector Source |
Check with an avionics shop... this is only available from Garmin. It's
a horrendous price, about $20.00. My avionics shop said to use the
solder tail connector, then put an in-line BNC connector in the coax,
which is what I did.
Vern Little
DAVID REEL wrote:
>
>No luck in the archives. Does anyone have a source for the BNC type coaxial cable
connector attached to the transponder tray with a snap ring on the Garmin
GTX320A? My unit came with a solder type connector & I would like to have a
BNC style connection to simplify panel removal. The Garmin part number is 330-00326-00.
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
>
>
> At
>Oshkosh, Bill Bainbridge immediately handed me his cell phone after dialing
>up Tim Johnson & Tim explained that in theory this was correct but the
>regulator may not have enough output ability to boost the system voltage
>back to the proper range as the reg. was starting with a lower voltage.
>
>
Interesting story Brian.
I believe you are saying that the Cessna switch was preventing the
alternator from getting sufficient field current. The switch itself must
have been running somewhat warm.
Some guys would have found this with just a voltmeter but I'd guess that
at least a few of us with such a problem might have jumpered the
regulator and when that didn't fix it, replaced the alternator. So I'd
say you did well to track this down with only a spare regulator to show
for it. (Jumpering from the battery to the alternator would have fixed
it but not just jumpering across the regulator.)
The thing that I like about a key switch is that nobody can crank the
engine if the key is in my pocket. I'm using a marine key switch for
cranking that has a 25 amp rating. Not for mags, just for cranking.
thanks for sharing
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
Fellow builders:
I am building a Velocity XLRG. I wonder if you could make some suggestions
to help me to trouble shoot a radio problem Im having. I have Garmin CNX-80
and SL-30 radios. I am able to transmit fine but both radios will only
recieve if you are within several hundred feet. Beyond that no reception. I have
dipole antennas, nav and comm in each wing that were prebuilt so I have no
acess to the antennas Each wing has one comm and one nav antenna. Each radio is
connected to a different antenna, right and left wing. Im not sure which
antenna is the nav and which is the comm but I tried both , one working better
than the other but neither one beyond a few hundred feet. From the RG-58 cable
comming from the wing I have a connection in the strake to RG-400 cable that
runs to the radio with one more connection about a foot behind the radio from a
prewired radio stack. I would appreciate any input you could suggest.
Thanks Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery In Tail Questions |
>
>First off, I'd like to make the statement that I am a "noob" when it
>comes to some of these things, but I am slowly putting things together
>after reading The Connection and lurking here. So be gentle if I use
>some incorrect "terminology". :)
>
>I will most likely have some form of Z-13. At this point most likely a
>Z-13/Z-30 derivative. The dual bats will be in the tail.
How are you going to equip and use the airplane that
you find a need for four power sources?
>I believe that a good place to establish the main power distribution bus
>connection is to connect from the starter contactor.
Yes.
> Maybe an ANL
>between? Is that correct?
No
>My biggest sticking point is with the bat bus and aux bat bus being in
>the tail. The feeds to the bat/aux bat bus items along with the e-bus
>alt feed will have to run the length of the fuse. I read in The
>Connection that it is wise to run all these wires along one side of the
>plane (Page-7 Note 5)? Is it ok to have all the large and small wires
>routed together in one conduit?
Yes, bundle them right together with the battery feeders.
> Are there other issues I have to be
>concerned with?
>
>Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it and as long as my fuses
>and wires are properly sized, the battery buses being located in the
>tail will be just fine? I guess I just need confirmation that I'm on
>the right track and maybe a few "gotchas" that I need to look out for.
No, you're okay with the architecture described. I'm just concerned
that you are perhaps carrying around way too much harware and wire
for the task. Why wouldn't Z-13/8 and a single 17 a.h. battery
on the firewall NOT meet the needs of your proposed flight system?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AMP connector pin source |
>
>AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
>
>
><AMP pins that go into a strobe AMP connector.
>
>I'm sure someplace like Digikey has them, but
>I can't find them on their website.
See http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T052/0122-0132.pdf
Page 127
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder "air switch" |
>
>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an answer
>to my question. I originally asked:
>
>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference the use
>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby mode as
>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything about
>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>
>Allow me to add some additional information:
>
>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair T2000. The
>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from ground
>(configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>
>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class "B", so
>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO and
>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA plane.
>
>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would be no
>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>
>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
The "air switch" was suggested as a means for keeping the
transponder from being accidently left ON during ground ops.
Some airport radar systems were vulnerable to strong signal
overload when bunches aircraft taxiing on the ground were replying
to radar interrogations.
This is unlikely to be an issue for the way you'll use a Part 103
aircraft. Even if it were an "issue" . . . it's one that is easily
addressed with attention to checklists that turn transponder ON on
takeoff roll and turn it back off as you leave the active runway.
I recommend you not install this feature. The vast majority
of certified ships flying do not have such a switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
>
> >
> >
> > Would you care to post some power distribution diagrams that
> > describe your architecture. The lack of battery contactors piques
> > our interest. You've expressed some interest in management
> > of an OV event . . . it seems that elimination of battery contactors
> > offers possibilities for some equally exciting failure modes
> > that battery contactors are expected to control . . .
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> >
>Sorry but my diagrams are in pencil and not very neat ;)
>
>Essentially I have a Z-14 with no battery contactors. My main interest
>is two hot battery busses to feed the electrically dependant engine and
>I don't ever want to disconnect those engine computers from a battery.
>
>Each of those busses distributes through a 6 fuse fuseblock and has low
>voltage warnings. Almost everything else, including the starter, is
>routed through a contactor and then a 10 fuse fuseblock. If I open that
>contactor then it kills everything but the battery busses which is no
>problem as the primary gyros are vacuum operated. I know vacuum is less
>reliable but I prefer a six pack and vacuum was affordable at the time.
>There is a low vacuum warning. Instead of plumbing an engine intake
>manifold backup vacuum source I added a $30. flymarket 28 volt electric
>T&B which works just fine on 12volts with surprisingly little change in
>rpm or current draw.
Do you plan to have a wing leveler? If so, this is a 99% better
backup to vacuum gyros than hand-flying needle-ball-airspeed.
> A handheld vhf and gps backup is available if
>needed and one cigarette lighter outlet is powered from a battery bus.
>There is an OVM and a B-lead contactor/relay on both the main 40 amp
>alternator and the 20 amp PM alternator.
>
>This was fairly carefully considered as appropriate for my needs and a
>bit simpler than the stock Z-14. There is no separate starter contactor
>but I can still kill power to the automotive starter. This also
>eliminates two battery contactors but adds in that one power
>distribution contactor. The batteries are wee 8 AH units and the
>crossfeed closes for cranking. Since I have 3 busses, all switches are
>color keyed red (left battery bus for backup engine controls), blue
>(right battery bus for primary engine), and yellow (the switched non
>essential) bus. Pilot operating simplicity was very much a
>consideration. All warnings (except low fuel and crossfeed closed) are
>done with a Grand Rapids EIS.
My first impression is that you've stirred a lot of separate
worries into a really big bucket full of "solutions". If you
have a vacuum system, why Z-14? How is your engine electrically
dependent? What loads must be powered to keep the engine running?
What advantage for eliminating battery contactors outweighs the
value of maximizing control over the electrical system. It's
not clear what your design goals were for the changes you've cited.
Can be back up to a stock Z-14 and discuss how it falls short?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
>
>
>Bob -
>
>We installed your ground power system in addition to the Z-14 in our
>Lancair ES. I bought a small power supply on eBay that you had recommended
>(12V nominal that had been set to 13.5V by the seller). We use it all the
>time to check out the electrical system and instrumentation. Great setup.
>Works great.
>
>I would like to use the external power receptacle to plug in a battery
>charger/maintainer. It should work well to charge/maintain the #1 battery
>when just the ground power switch/cb is on and the contactor is closed.
>This means we give up .8 amp off the top of the charger's capacity.
>
>However, the problem comes when we want to charge/maintain the #2 battery.
>By using the external power jack, we have to have all four of the
>contactors closed - giving up 3.2 amps. The entire electrical system of
>the aircraft would be hot while the batteries charge. We then worry about
>one battery being over charged if the other one is lower. Any
>tender/maintainer will stay on the charge cycle until it senses the lowest
>battery at the peak charge before going to the maintain mode. Correct?
>
>Question: Is it a good idea to use the ground power system to charge and
>maintain the batteries?
>
>If so, can you recommend a maintainer and a circuit change that can do
>the job?
>
>Or, would it be better to just add 4 more wires and a couple of plugs to
>the batteries and use two of the smaller tenders?
The ground power jack was never intended to be useful for
battery maintenance. It's main attributes are to supply high
current, external power for ground maintenance operations and
as battery assist during cold weather starts. If you want
to install maintainers (largely unnecessary on RG batteries)
then a small, 3 pin connector for ground, bat 1, bat 2 with
relatively small wires tied to fuses on each battery's hot
battery bus is the way to support the batteries while hangared.
The self-discharge rate on RG batteries is exceedingly low. If
you fly just once every 6 months, there's little benefit to
be realized by "plugging in".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
>
>Bob, As a new builder trying to develop an understanding of aircraft
>electrical systems, I would appreciate your detailed recommendation for
>achieving "control of the OV condition at the SOURCE" as stated in (5)
>below. I've followed the OV discussions for several weeks and remain
>totally confused.
>Thanks,
>Roger Mell
For the moment, don't waste any good sleeping time over this
discussion. There are two schools of thought being considered:
Classic ov protection systems have simply shut down the offending
alternator/regulator combination when an ov condition was detected.
This philosophy (Plan-A) has been in place for decades and is illustrated
in any Z-figures that offer ov protection solutions.
Since internally regulated alternators cannot be controlled
from outside during an OV event, Plan-B suggests a sprinkling
of ov clamping devices (transorbs) downstream of circuit
protection devices (breakers or fuses) to protect each feeder to a
vulnerable component. This philosophy has also been offered as a
prophylactic against the load-dump transients which ANY form of
engine driven power system will produce under the right circumstances.
The big question to be answered for a rational design approach
is to Plan B (1) figure out a way to disconnect the errant alternator
during an OV event and (2) size any load-dump clamping hardware
so that it's not at-risk for failure as a result of the load-dump
event.
There are multiple issues intertwined here. Both load-dump and
ov events are rare. Don't spend much time worrying about them and
concentrate on getting your airplane finished. What ever the
elegant solution turns out to be, it can be addressed at any
time later in your building process.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
>
>Bob,
> This seems to be the most talked about subject on this list and to some
>extent the most confusing.
> What is your current recommendation for a "positive off within 500ms" . . .
>I had heard / read that you had concerns regarding earlier proposed
>solutions (due to parts not performing as planned)??
> Thanks,
>Bob Christensen
See my post of a few minutes ago on the same subject.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery In Tail Questions |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> First off, I'd like to make the statement that I am a "noob" when it
>> comes to some of these things, but I am slowly putting things together
>> after reading The Connection and lurking here. So be gentle if I use
>> some incorrect "terminology". :)
>>
>> I will most likely have some form of Z-13. At this point most likely a
>> Z-13/Z-30 derivative. The dual bats will be in the tail.
>>
>
> How are you going to equip and use the airplane that
> you find a need for four power sources?
>
IFR Panel, Dual Chelton screens. Initially, single lightspeed ignition,
but thinking if dual. Would go dual p-mag if they were out for 6 cyl.
Most common use for this bird would be long x-country family trips with
the kids in the back. Z-13/20 single bat would probably cover it, but
what's the extra PC680 hurt? Especially if I plan a future upgrade to
dual elec ignition? Also will have elec fuel pump.
>
>> I believe that a good place to establish the main power distribution bus
>> connection is to connect from the starter contactor.
>>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>> Maybe an ANL
>> between? Is that correct?
>>
>
> No
>
>
Ok, thought I saw that somewhere in The Connection, but can't find it now.
>
>> My biggest sticking point is with the bat bus and aux bat bus being in
>> the tail. The feeds to the bat/aux bat bus items along with the e-bus
>> alt feed will have to run the length of the fuse. I read in The
>> Connection that it is wise to run all these wires along one side of the
>> plane (Page-7 Note 5)? Is it ok to have all the large and small wires
>> routed together in one conduit?
>>
>
>
> Yes, bundle them right together with the battery feeders.
>
>
>> Are there other issues I have to be
>> concerned with?
>>
>> Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it and as long as my fuses
>> and wires are properly sized, the battery buses being located in the
>> tail will be just fine? I guess I just need confirmation that I'm on
>> the right track and maybe a few "gotchas" that I need to look out for.
>>
>
> No, you're okay with the architecture described. I'm just concerned
> that you are perhaps carrying around way too much harware and wire
> for the task. Why wouldn't Z-13/8 and a single 17 a.h. battery
> on the firewall NOT meet the needs of your proposed flight system?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Would most likely be a Z-13/20 if going with Z-13-single bat. Also, the
battery has to be in the tail for w&b reasons in the RV-10. With the
IO-540-D4A5 up front it is a little nose heavy as it is already. Hence
the engineering of the bat tray in the rear. I WISH, believe me, that I
could have a single bat on the firewall with an IO-540 up front. It
would make things SOOOOO much simpler. The only way I would be able to
do that is to add more dead weight in the tail.
I see your point about the need for dual bat. But I was just thinking
ahead along the dual elec ignition route. The only thing I was
wondering is all those darn wires running up to the front and back.
Anything off the bat bus, including e-bus alt feed, aux alt back to the
battery contactor, etc. It's about a 10 foot run from the bat tray in
the tail of the RV-10 to the front.
Even if I went the standard Z-13/20 route without adding the Z-30, the
requirement of the bat in the tail would dictate a lot of big wire runs
to the front and back. It would seem that adding in Z-30 for future
expansion would be minimal compared to the runs that are already needed?
Thanks Bob...
-Sean
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery In Tail Questions |
| From: | "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> |
How about split the difference with Main Battery in back and a smaller aux battery
in front?
TDT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sean
Stephens
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery In Tail Questions
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> First off, I'd like to make the statement that I am a "noob" when it
>> comes to some of these things, but I am slowly putting things together
>> after reading The Connection and lurking here. So be gentle if I use
>> some incorrect "terminology". :)
>>
>> I will most likely have some form of Z-13. At this point most likely a
>> Z-13/Z-30 derivative. The dual bats will be in the tail.
>>
>
> How are you going to equip and use the airplane that
> you find a need for four power sources?
>
IFR Panel, Dual Chelton screens. Initially, single lightspeed ignition,
but thinking if dual. Would go dual p-mag if they were out for 6 cyl.
Most common use for this bird would be long x-country family trips with
the kids in the back. Z-13/20 single bat would probably cover it, but
what's the extra PC680 hurt? Especially if I plan a future upgrade to
dual elec ignition? Also will have elec fuel pump.
>
>> I believe that a good place to establish the main power distribution bus
>> connection is to connect from the starter contactor.
>>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>> Maybe an ANL
>> between? Is that correct?
>>
>
> No
>
>
Ok, thought I saw that somewhere in The Connection, but can't find it now.
>
>> My biggest sticking point is with the bat bus and aux bat bus being in
>> the tail. The feeds to the bat/aux bat bus items along with the e-bus
>> alt feed will have to run the length of the fuse. I read in The
>> Connection that it is wise to run all these wires along one side of the
>> plane (Page-7 Note 5)? Is it ok to have all the large and small wires
>> routed together in one conduit?
>>
>
>
> Yes, bundle them right together with the battery feeders.
>
>
>> Are there other issues I have to be
>> concerned with?
>>
>> Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it and as long as my fuses
>> and wires are properly sized, the battery buses being located in the
>> tail will be just fine? I guess I just need confirmation that I'm on
>> the right track and maybe a few "gotchas" that I need to look out for.
>>
>
> No, you're okay with the architecture described. I'm just concerned
> that you are perhaps carrying around way too much harware and wire
> for the task. Why wouldn't Z-13/8 and a single 17 a.h. battery
> on the firewall NOT meet the needs of your proposed flight system?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Would most likely be a Z-13/20 if going with Z-13-single bat. Also, the
battery has to be in the tail for w&b reasons in the RV-10. With the
IO-540-D4A5 up front it is a little nose heavy as it is already. Hence
the engineering of the bat tray in the rear. I WISH, believe me, that I
could have a single bat on the firewall with an IO-540 up front. It
would make things SOOOOO much simpler. The only way I would be able to
do that is to add more dead weight in the tail.
I see your point about the need for dual bat. But I was just thinking
ahead along the dual elec ignition route. The only thing I was
wondering is all those darn wires running up to the front and back.
Anything off the bat bus, including e-bus alt feed, aux alt back to the
battery contactor, etc. It's about a 10 foot run from the bat tray in
the tail of the RV-10 to the front.
Even if I went the standard Z-13/20 route without adding the Z-30, the
requirement of the bat in the tail would dictate a lot of big wire runs
to the front and back. It would seem that adding in Z-30 for future
expansion would be minimal compared to the runs that are already needed?
Thanks Bob...
-Sean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Question on Z-14 dual alt system! |
Bob,
Why did you use a 4AWG line from the large alternator on the Z-14
drawing? I was thinking you could use a 10AWG line for runs of less
then 10 feet or so without any problems. I was wondering if I am
overlooking something, what are your thoughts on this?
Mike Larkin
Lancair Legacy
Kitfox
TS-11 Iskra
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVP thoughts
>
>Bob, As a new builder trying to develop an understanding of aircraft
>electrical systems, I would appreciate your detailed recommendation for
>achieving "control of the OV condition at the SOURCE" as stated in (5)
>below. I've followed the OV discussions for several weeks and remain
>totally confused.
>Thanks,
>Roger Mell
For the moment, don't waste any good sleeping time over this
discussion. There are two schools of thought being considered:
Classic ov protection systems have simply shut down the offending
alternator/regulator combination when an ov condition was detected.
This philosophy (Plan-A) has been in place for decades and is
illustrated
in any Z-figures that offer ov protection solutions.
Since internally regulated alternators cannot be controlled
from outside during an OV event, Plan-B suggests a sprinkling
of ov clamping devices (transorbs) downstream of circuit
protection devices (breakers or fuses) to protect each feeder to a
vulnerable component. This philosophy has also been offered as a
prophylactic against the load-dump transients which ANY form of
engine driven power system will produce under the right
circumstances.
The big question to be answered for a rational design approach
is to Plan B (1) figure out a way to disconnect the errant
alternator
during an OV event and (2) size any load-dump clamping hardware
so that it's not at-risk for failure as a result of the load-dump
event.
There are multiple issues intertwined here. Both load-dump and
ov events are rare. Don't spend much time worrying about them and
concentrate on getting your airplane finished. What ever the
elegant solution turns out to be, it can be addressed at any
time later in your building process.
Bob . . .
--
8/18/2005
--
8/18/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery In Tail Questions |
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
>
>
> How about split the difference with Main Battery in back and a smaller aux battery
in front?
>
> TDT
>
>
I thought about that Tim. But doesn't it still require runs to the
tail? If using Z-30 for example? A run between bat contactors and a
run for the e-bus alt feed to the main bat bus?
I'm struggling with minimizing large wire runs. I guess I just can't
picture it. Maybe if I saw something in front of me it would just click
I guess. "The light would go on". :)
-Sean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sean
> Stephens
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery In Tail Questions
>
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> First off, I'd like to make the statement that I am a "noob" when it
>>> comes to some of these things, but I am slowly putting things together
>>> after reading The Connection and lurking here. So be gentle if I use
>>> some incorrect "terminology". :)
>>>
>>> I will most likely have some form of Z-13. At this point most likely a
>>> Z-13/Z-30 derivative. The dual bats will be in the tail.
>>>
>>>
>> How are you going to equip and use the airplane that
>> you find a need for four power sources?
>>
>>
> IFR Panel, Dual Chelton screens. Initially, single lightspeed ignition,
> but thinking if dual. Would go dual p-mag if they were out for 6 cyl.
> Most common use for this bird would be long x-country family trips with
> the kids in the back. Z-13/20 single bat would probably cover it, but
> what's the extra PC680 hurt? Especially if I plan a future upgrade to
> dual elec ignition? Also will have elec fuel pump.
>
>>
>>
>>> I believe that a good place to establish the main power distribution bus
>>> connection is to connect from the starter contactor.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Maybe an ANL
>>> between? Is that correct?
>>>
>>>
>> No
>>
>>
>>
> Ok, thought I saw that somewhere in The Connection, but can't find it now.
>
>>
>>
>>> My biggest sticking point is with the bat bus and aux bat bus being in
>>> the tail. The feeds to the bat/aux bat bus items along with the e-bus
>>> alt feed will have to run the length of the fuse. I read in The
>>> Connection that it is wise to run all these wires along one side of the
>>> plane (Page-7 Note 5)? Is it ok to have all the large and small wires
>>> routed together in one conduit?
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, bundle them right together with the battery feeders.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Are there other issues I have to be
>>> concerned with?
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm just making too big a deal out of it and as long as my fuses
>>> and wires are properly sized, the battery buses being located in the
>>> tail will be just fine? I guess I just need confirmation that I'm on
>>> the right track and maybe a few "gotchas" that I need to look out for.
>>>
>>>
>> No, you're okay with the architecture described. I'm just concerned
>> that you are perhaps carrying around way too much harware and wire
>> for the task. Why wouldn't Z-13/8 and a single 17 a.h. battery
>> on the firewall NOT meet the needs of your proposed flight system?
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
> Would most likely be a Z-13/20 if going with Z-13-single bat. Also, the
> battery has to be in the tail for w&b reasons in the RV-10. With the
> IO-540-D4A5 up front it is a little nose heavy as it is already. Hence
> the engineering of the bat tray in the rear. I WISH, believe me, that I
> could have a single bat on the firewall with an IO-540 up front. It
> would make things SOOOOO much simpler. The only way I would be able to
> do that is to add more dead weight in the tail.
>
> I see your point about the need for dual bat. But I was just thinking
> ahead along the dual elec ignition route. The only thing I was
> wondering is all those darn wires running up to the front and back.
> Anything off the bat bus, including e-bus alt feed, aux alt back to the
> battery contactor, etc. It's about a 10 foot run from the bat tray in
> the tail of the RV-10 to the front.
>
> Even if I went the standard Z-13/20 route without adding the Z-30, the
> requirement of the bat in the tail would dictate a lot of big wire runs
> to the front and back. It would seem that adding in Z-30 for future
> expansion would be minimal compared to the runs that are already needed?
>
> Thanks Bob...
>
> -Sean
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
>
>
> My first impression is that you've stirred a lot of separate
> worries into a really big bucket full of "solutions". If you
> have a vacuum system, why Z-14? How is your engine electrically
> dependent? What loads must be powered to keep the engine running?
> What advantage for eliminating battery contactors outweighs the
> value of maximizing control over the electrical system. It's
> not clear what your design goals were for the changes you've cited.
> Can be back up to a stock Z-14 and discuss how it falls short?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
For an experimental one off system with many homemade components and
wiring, I have chosen to provide complete electronic redundancy. Sure
this is probably overkill but I will not be uncomfortabe taking this
automotive powered airplane on long trips or over hostile territory as
far as fuel and ignition concerns. Many auto conversions never seem to
go very far from home base and I don't want to stay close to home for
hundreds of hours while establishing system reliability. This electrical
architecture is far more flexible than adding extra small batteries for
ignition or injection backup.
Anyway when I realized that the vast majority of my wiring was ignition
and fuel injection that would go on a battery bus anyway and that
nothing else was what I considered essential, then classic battery
contactors don't seem to offer me an advantage. They would add another
contactor or two and not really let me de-energise any extra wiring
since the contactors and batteries are all very close together.
I guess one design goal was that there is no way that the battery can be
disconnected from an alternator while leaving that alternator connected
to any loads. That is in some ways an extension of the philosophy of
running the engine off a battery bus and I think it is perhaps
appropriate for an IR alternator, which is the only type that I can
personally envision purchasing anymore for a new installation. I can
still de-energise everything that battery contactors would de-energise.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery In Tail Questions |
> I'm struggling with minimizing large wire runs. I guess I just can't
> picture it. Maybe if I saw something in front of me it would just click
> I guess. "The light would go on". :)
I have not run a W&B on the RV10, but it might be possible to take
the amount of weight you are adding in wiring and add it to the
very end of the fuselage, and put the batteries on the firewall.
I've got my batteries behind my baggage area on my RV8, but
since I'm using a Subaru engine, which has a starter that
does not draw as much current as a Lycoming, I only need
AWG#6 welding cable from the batteries to the starter.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio problems |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Tim -
Do you have an audio/intercomm box installed?
In the setup section of theSL30, there are several choices to make in the
system. Same for the 480 in its ground maintenance mode. If you have not
already done so, check these settings. I don't have the manuals with me,
but there are gain settings in both radios. If you have a Garmin 340 audio
box, it may not be wired right for the audio feed to your headsets. Also,
are the two comm antennae installed vertically in the wing tip?
John
>
>
> I am able to transmit fine but both radios will only recieve if you are
> within several hundred feet. Beyond that no reception. > I have
> dipole antennas, nav and comm in each wing that were prebuilt so I
> have no access to the antennas Each wing has > one comm and one nav
> antenna. Each radio is connected to a different antenna, right and
> left wing. Im not sure which
> antenna is the nav and which is the comm but I tried both , one working
> better than the other but neither one beyond a few > hundred feet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
I'm keeping Brian's posting together in it's entirety with this
response so that the whole story will be available in one message.
The "Cessna style" split rocker switches have been a source
of regulator instability problems on both production and certified
ships for decades. This simple fact might lead one to believe
that the split rocker switch was of inferior design or manufacture.
Please know that all the switch guts behind the panel for the
classic split rocker are exactly the same as for the S700 series
toggle switches offered by B&C and others. Both switches are
made by Carling. The S700 are catalog items, the split rocker
is a custom.
The REASON for voltage regulations problems has root cause
of increased contact resistance in the closed switch. When
field current AND regulator voltage sense come through the
same contacts, the switch can ADD to the sum total of ALL
resistances in this pathway. When they rise to a sufficiently
high level, the voltage regulator can mis-behave. Quite
often, folks have made the problem go away by replacing the
switch . . . but this is only one of several components that
contribute to the instability.
There are so many split rocker switches in service (tens of
thousands) that the probability of spotlighting one of these
switches as contributor to voltage instability is quite high.
However, replacing the split rocker with a toggle is NOT
a golden solution. There is potential for the same problem
to arise later no matter which style of switch is used.
There are some design philosophies that will make the problem
go away entirely. Its a good thing to separate field supply and
voltage sense feed lines. This change was made to the B&C
product lines years ago. Unfortunately, builders who use the
generic Ford regulators are not able to separate the lines.
Not a big deal . . . but to live comfortably with this
configuration, one should minimize joints in series with
the field/sense feed line. This was one of the considerations
that made crowbar ov protection attractive 20 years ago . . .
it provides a means for OV sense and shutdown while adding
NO series resistance to the circuit.
New spilt rocker switches are often tagged as problem
children. Probably because they're a special order switch
that tend to set in the warehouse for a long time. An
unused but new switch may have some storage corrosion
on what used to be shinny contacts. This may well reduce
service life on what the installer believes is a
"good as new" switch.
This is NOT a recommendation to avoid either the split
rocker OR the generic three-wire regulators. The purpose
of this dissertation is to make folks aware of how these
components behave under certain conditions. When and
if one has a voltage instability problem, total resistance
between the bus and the regulator should be reduced . . .
which may include replacement of the battery master switch.
>
>Hi Folks
>
>I just wanted to comment on a problem I had been having for 6 years on my
>aircraft. This is in response to a previous post I made about 3 weeks ago
>& Kevin Horton & Ken Klehman were kind enough to supply some advice.
>
>The electrical system is a classic Nuckolls system. It is very similar to
>Z-1 as published in 1996. This is a simple system with a linear
>regulator, mine is a B&C LR-3B. I did not use a toggle switch but a
>standard aircraft key switch & Cessna style Battery/Alternator Master switch.
>
>My helper during construction was a very bright guy who has his masters in
>Elec. Engineering. The electrical installation is really really good due
>to his work. He even used waxed lacing for wire ties which looks and
>performs beautifully. Only 1 operational problem right from day one which
>was July 25, 1999.
>
>I was having so much fun flying etc. that I did not work too hard to solve
>it as it did not keep me out of the air but bugged me as I know it was not
>right.
>
>The problem was the system voltage peaked at about 13.8 V and decreased
>each time I added a load of any kind to the system. Each load would drop
>the system load by about 0.1-0.2 volts. I could easily drop the system
>voltage down to 12.8-12.9 volts but as most of my flying was day VFR, it
>rarely got there.
>
>I have an EI gauge to show volts/amps & also my Garmin 195 would display
>the same. (I reasoned that it made sense to have the EI gauge mounted on
>the Essential bus as I would want to know the condition of the battery if I
>had to feed the E bus directly per the alternate feed switch if the
>alternator went down). I did realize that my EI gauge was fed from the
>Essential bus and therefore would read a lower voltage due to the drop
>across the bridge rectifier which feeds the Essential bus from the Main
>bus, (or buss?). I also checked it with 2 portable digital multimeters
>which did not show anything was wrong with the readings. I also adjusted
>the trim pot on the regulator which did not help very much.
>
>I changed belts for the alternator, discussed the matter with B&C &
>followed the trouble shooting specs. as supplied which were all within the
>stated limits. Finally I decided in my finite wisdom that it must be the
>regulator so I purchased a new reg. at $228 from B&C and installed it with
>high hopes. As you probably guessed, I restarted the engine and the
>numbers were EXACTLY the same. What a downer!
>
>I posted my problem 3 weeks ago as I mentioned. Kevin suggested that I
>move the feed point of the EI gauge to the Main bus. This helped but still
>the drop continued. Ken suggested that I check all the points from the
>alternator back to the main bus i.e. look for voltage drops at each
>connection starting with the B lead and so forth. I did realize that I was
>working with a digital multimeter and was testing the system with no load
>applied during the resistance check & does not represent real life but I
>did turn loads on the see if that would show any voltage drop. All
>resistance drops were less than 1 ohm & therefore could see nothing obvious.
>
>I called B&C again and Tim Johnson suggested a similar course of action as
>per Ken & Kevin. However, his ears perked up when I mentioned my master
>switch. He said that may be a problem.
August 10, 2005 - August 22, 2005
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-es