AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-et
August 22, 2005 - September 09, 2005
>
>Sure enough, I bypassed the master switch & the 5A feed breaker, (per Z-1),
>running a jumper from the Main bus directly to pin #6 on the regulator
>which is feed for the alternator field voltage & voil, after 6 years with
>13 something volts max, I had 14.2-14.4 volts. I could not believe
>it. After many more minutes with rudder pedals digging into my head,
>torque tube in my back & sweat in my eyes, I only bypassed the Cessna
>switch & the results were the same.
>
>Now I am happily flying with a spare reg., no switch to turn the alternator
>off & on except for thebreaker in the system which I can pull out if I need
>to & making the voltage output I had always wanted.
>
>Sure makes you think though, the wonderful brand new certified part in my
>system was causing undue voltage drop across the switch itself & thereby
>depressing my system voltage by up to 1.5 volts.
>
>Many thanks to Kevin & Ken for sending me in the right direction & to B&C
>as well who were great. I must say my little brain was still confused as I
>assumed that the regulator sensing a lower than optimal voltage would
>adjust the alternator field voltage upwards enough to compensate. At
>Oshkosh, Bill Bainbridge immediately handed me his cell phone after dialing
>up Tim Johnson & Tim explained that in theory this was correct but the
>regulator may not have enough output ability to boost the system voltage
>back to the proper range as the reg. was starting with a lower voltage.
>
>So, the moral of the story, do not use certificated parts on your amateur
>built aircraft, (kidding). Seriously forget the master switch & use toggle
>switches. I am stuck with this rectangular hole cut into my panel &
>wondering if I really want to pull it out & fill the area neatly somehow
>with 2 toggle switches. Come to think of it, why did I buy a key switch in
>the first place? I should have used toggles there as well.
>
>Sorry to post such a long email. I do really hope this helps people in
>designing a simple, inexpensive, easy to maintain & trouble free
>panel. With the above changes, by Simple Z diagram is faultless.
>
>Again many thanks to the above mentioned gentlemen & of course Bob Nuckolls
>for a great system.
>
>Now, back to building my RV-8.
>
>Cheers
>
>Brian Cross # 81844
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com> |
| Subject: | recharge/jump start recepticle |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.58, required 3.7, autolearn=not spam,
AWL 0.02, BAYES_00 -2.60)
One post in this thread indicated that flying an
aircraft that needed to be jump-started wasn't a good
idea. Seems like sound logic to me. Which then begs
the question: what would a good configuration be for an
easily accessible battery maintenance receptacle be ??
Just to sanity check, is there another compelling reason
to have a receptacle capable of handling jump-start
currents ?? If not, is there any standard connector
configuration for battery maintenance ?? Or what would
a good choice be ??
cheers,
--
Larry E. James
Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket II
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery In Tail Questions |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Wouldn't suggest it. The -10 is very nose heavy because of the big Lyc 540 on
the nose. Need the battery weight in the back or something else to make up for
the missing weight of the battery + the new weight of the battery on the firewall.
Only other option is a lighter engine but no one has a tested/firewall
forward package yet for the -10 in the 210hp - 260hp range.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Wing skins
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery In Tail Questions
-->
> I'm struggling with minimizing large wire runs. I guess I just can't
> picture it. Maybe if I saw something in front of me it would just
> click I guess. "The light would go on". :)
I have not run a W&B on the RV10, but it might be possible to take the amount of
weight you are adding in wiring and add it to the very end of the fuselage,
and put the batteries on the firewall.
I've got my batteries behind my baggage area on my RV8, but since I'm using a Subaru
engine, which has a starter that does not draw as much current as a Lycoming,
I only need
AWG#6 welding cable from the batteries to the starter.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder "air switch" |
The complete line of Airbus airliners has this "air switch" feature on
the transponder and other systems. I plan to incorporate this idea in
my latest airplane build. I will include a guarded override switch in
the event of failure or the need to use the system on the ground. Other
items that I plan to use with this "airswitch" are the strobe lights and
speed brake systems. I'm just offering a different way of looking at
things! I find this system reduces workload during hi periods of work,
i.e. Entering the runway and exiting the runway. In my years, I have
seen many a close midair or runway incursions at local and large
airports. It is my opinion that if you had three less things to do
entering and exiting the runway you would be more alert as to what is
going on around instead of knob and switch doodling while moving the
airplane on the ground. Just an idea...
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder "air switch"
>
>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an
answer
>to my question. I originally asked:
>
>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference the
use
>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby mode
as
>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything
about
>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>
>Allow me to add some additional information:
>
>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair T2000.
The
>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from ground
>(configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>
>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class "B",
so
>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO
and
>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA
plane.
>
>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would
be no
>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>
>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
The "air switch" was suggested as a means for keeping the
transponder from being accidently left ON during ground ops.
Some airport radar systems were vulnerable to strong signal
overload when bunches aircraft taxiing on the ground were replying
to radar interrogations.
This is unlikely to be an issue for the way you'll use a Part 103
aircraft. Even if it were an "issue" . . . it's one that is easily
addressed with attention to checklists that turn transponder ON on
takeoff roll and turn it back off as you leave the active runway.
I recommend you not install this feature. The vast majority
of certified ships flying do not have such a switch.
Bob . . .
--
8/18/2005
--
8/18/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <schmoboy(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery In Tail Questions |
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
>> I'm struggling with minimizing large wire runs. I guess I just can't
>> picture it. Maybe if I saw something in front of me it would just click
>> I guess. "The light would go on". :)
>>
>
> I have not run a W&B on the RV10, but it might be possible to take
> the amount of weight you are adding in wiring and add it to the
> very end of the fuselage, and put the batteries on the firewall.
>
> I've got my batteries behind my baggage area on my RV8, but
> since I'm using a Subaru engine, which has a starter that
> does not draw as much current as a Lycoming, I only need
> AWG#6 welding cable from the batteries to the starter.
>
>
I'm ok with the bat contactor in the rear to the starter contactor in
the front part of things. It's just when you start running stuff from
the bat bus (in rear) to the front and Aux alt to bat contactor in the
rear and e-bus alt feed to bat bus in rear. Then things start to be a
lot of wire runs from front to back and vice versa.
I think there are going to be quite a few RV-10 builder who have to make
the same choices I am trying to make. Having the bats in the back is
*almost* a necessity in the -10. Wiring up a good ole fashion Z-11
without an e-bus would be no big deal, but start adding bat bus, aux bat
bus, e-bus, aux alt, and I start to worry about all those front to back
runs.
It sounds like I need to just quit worry about all those wire runs front
to back and back to front. I think I'm just stuck on trying to remove
that requirement when in all reality it's fine?
Thanks...
-Sean
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery In Tail Questions |
| From: | "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> |
Don't forget the other end of W&B with the RV-10: With four adults and low fuel,
you can actually get into a situation of c.g. too far AFT! So I'd be carefully
about shoving everything into the tail. It's easier to throw a toolbox in
the baggage area then to try and add weight up front . . .
TDT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sean
Stephens
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery In Tail Questions
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>
>> I'm struggling with minimizing large wire runs. I guess I just can't
>> picture it. Maybe if I saw something in front of me it would just click
>> I guess. "The light would go on". :)
>>
>
> I have not run a W&B on the RV10, but it might be possible to take
> the amount of weight you are adding in wiring and add it to the
> very end of the fuselage, and put the batteries on the firewall.
>
> I've got my batteries behind my baggage area on my RV8, but
> since I'm using a Subaru engine, which has a starter that
> does not draw as much current as a Lycoming, I only need
> AWG#6 welding cable from the batteries to the starter.
>
>
I'm ok with the bat contactor in the rear to the starter contactor in
the front part of things. It's just when you start running stuff from
the bat bus (in rear) to the front and Aux alt to bat contactor in the
rear and e-bus alt feed to bat bus in rear. Then things start to be a
lot of wire runs from front to back and vice versa.
I think there are going to be quite a few RV-10 builder who have to make
the same choices I am trying to make. Having the bats in the back is
*almost* a necessity in the -10. Wiring up a good ole fashion Z-11
without an e-bus would be no big deal, but start adding bat bus, aux bat
bus, e-bus, aux alt, and I start to worry about all those front to back
runs.
It sounds like I need to just quit worry about all those wire runs front
to back and back to front. I think I'm just stuck on trying to remove
that requirement when in all reality it's fine?
Thanks...
-Sean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVP thoughts |
>
> >
> >
> > My first impression is that you've stirred a lot of separate
> > worries into a really big bucket full of "solutions". If you
> > have a vacuum system, why Z-14? How is your engine electrically
> > dependent? What loads must be powered to keep the engine running?
> > What advantage for eliminating battery contactors outweighs the
> > value of maximizing control over the electrical system. It's
> > not clear what your design goals were for the changes you've cited.
> > Can be back up to a stock Z-14 and discuss how it falls short?
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> >
>For an experimental one off system with many homemade components and
>wiring, I have chosen to provide complete electronic redundancy. Sure
>this is probably overkill but I will not be uncomfortabe taking this
>automotive powered airplane on long trips or over hostile territory as
>far as fuel and ignition concerns. Many auto conversions never seem to
>go very far from home base and I don't want to stay close to home for
>hundreds of hours while establishing system reliability. This electrical
>architecture is far more flexible than adding extra small batteries for
>ignition or injection backup.
>
>Anyway when I realized that the vast majority of my wiring was ignition
>and fuel injection that would go on a battery bus anyway and that
>nothing else was what I considered essential, then classic battery
>contactors don't seem to offer me an advantage. They would add another
>contactor or two and not really let me de-energise any extra wiring
>since the contactors and batteries are all very close together.
>
>I guess one design goal was that there is no way that the battery can be
>disconnected from an alternator while leaving that alternator connected
>to any loads. That is in some ways an extension of the philosophy of
>running the engine off a battery bus and I think it is perhaps
>appropriate for an IR alternator, which is the only type that I can
>personally envision purchasing anymore for a new installation. I can
>still de-energise everything that battery contactors would de-energise.
Hmmmmmm. Sounds like you've arrived at some decisions
and new paradigms . . . if you're happy with it . . .
truck on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
>
>One post in this thread indicated that flying an
>aircraft that needed to be jump-started wasn't a good
>idea. Seems like sound logic to me. Which then begs
>the question: what would a good configuration be for an
>easily accessible battery maintenance receptacle be ??
>
>Just to sanity check, is there another compelling reason
>to have a receptacle capable of handling jump-start
>currents ??
Sure. Ground maintenance and cold weather cranking
assists. I've never had to use a ground power receptacle
to assist with a dead battery (the airplanes so afflicted
were not fitted with ground power jacks). I've used
the ground power jack numerous times for the reasons
cited.
>If not, is there any standard connector
>configuration for battery maintenance ?? Or what would
>a good choice be ??
Battery maintainers are typically accurately controlled
chargers of 2A or less output. Any connector you might like
to use will be fine. Protect the wiring from maintainer
jack to battery bus with a 3A fuse.
Here's a good connector you can find at Radio Shack.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/274-010.jpg
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/274-013.jpg
There's nothing inherently evil about jump starting
an airplane if you (1) know how and why the battery
became depleted and (2) understand your dependency
on any part of the electrical system for the proposed
flight.
I almost never depend on an electrical system to
be functional for the purpose of getting to airport
of intended destination. However, it would be foolish
to dive into IMC without a good feel for the energy
reserves on board in the form of battery charge.
The few cases I've had to jump start or prop the
airplane, the proposed flight was in VFR-
friendly weather.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: IR Alternator OVP |
>
>
>I came across this article while looking for something else. "Is Your
>Aircraft Alternator Really Airworthy ?" in the 1990 April issue of Sport
>Aviation page90. It is designed to detect open or shorted diodes and arcing
>brushes. Could this be useful for spotting impending failures? The output is
>to 3 LEDs so it should be easy to add to a crowded panel. I have a Rotax 912
>so it's not very useful to me.
>
>Leo Corbalis
Can you scan this piece and send it to me?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery In Tail Questions |
| From: | "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> |
Michael, this might be a great post to start someone at your stage
looking at the change of weight with the new Barrett/Lycoming IO-390X
producing a true 210 hp before adulteration. Then this wiring issue
would be reduced to a weight reduction forward of the firewall.
John - KUAO
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV
Builder (Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery In Tail Questions
Wouldn't suggest it. The -10 is very nose heavy because of the big Lyc
540 on the nose. Need the battery weight in the back or something else
to make up for the missing weight of the battery + the new weight of the
battery on the firewall. Only other option is a lighter engine but no
one has a tested/firewall forward package yet for the -10 in the 210hp -
260hp range.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Wing skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Z-14 dual alt system! |
>
>Bob,
>
>Why did you use a 4AWG line from the large alternator on the Z-14
>drawing? I was thinking you could use a 10AWG line for runs of less
>then 10 feet or so without any problems.
Wire size has to do with the amount of current flowing in
the wire combined with considerations for limits on
voltage drop. 10AWG is too light for a 60A alternator b-lead
irrespective of length.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before engine
start.
Regards,
Matt-
>
> The complete line of Airbus airliners has this "air switch" feature on
> the transponder and other systems. I plan to incorporate this idea in
> my latest airplane build. I will include a guarded override switch in
> the event of failure or the need to use the system on the ground. Other
> items that I plan to use with this "airswitch" are the strobe lights and
> speed brake systems. I'm just offering a different way of looking at
> things! I find this system reduces workload during hi periods of work,
> i.e. Entering the runway and exiting the runway. In my years, I have
> seen many a close midair or runway incursions at local and large
> airports. It is my opinion that if you had three less things to do
> entering and exiting the runway you would be more alert as to what is
> going on around instead of knob and switch doodling while moving the
> airplane on the ground. Just an idea...
>
> Mike Larkin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder "air switch"
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an
> answer
>>to my question. I originally asked:
>>
>>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference the
> use
>>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby mode
> as
>>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything
> about
>>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>>
>>Allow me to add some additional information:
>>
>>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair T2000.
> The
>>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from ground
>> (configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>>
>>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>> Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class "B",
> so
>>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO
> and
>>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>> inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA
> plane.
>>
>>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would
> be no
>>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>>
>>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
>
> The "air switch" was suggested as a means for keeping the
> transponder from being accidently left ON during ground ops.
> Some airport radar systems were vulnerable to strong signal
> overload when bunches aircraft taxiing on the ground were replying
> to radar interrogations.
>
> This is unlikely to be an issue for the way you'll use a Part 103
> aircraft. Even if it were an "issue" . . . it's one that is easily
> addressed with attention to checklists that turn transponder ON on
> takeoff roll and turn it back off as you leave the active runway.
>
> I recommend you not install this feature. The vast majority
> of certified ships flying do not have such a switch.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leo Corbalis" <leocorbalis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle SpamAssassin |
(score=-2.58, required 3.7, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.02, BAYES_00
-2.60)
Yes ! If you forget the master switch and let it sit over the weekend you
will need a jump start. With any luck and a fairly new battery it will
survive one episode of deep discharge as on "0" volts. I'll never tell !
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry E. James" <larry(at)ncproto.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: recharge/jump start recepticle SpamAssassin
(score=-2.58, required 3.7, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.02, BAYES_00 -2.60)
>
>
> One post in this thread indicated that flying an
> aircraft that needed to be jump-started wasn't a good
> idea. Seems like sound logic to me. Which then begs
> the question: what would a good configuration be for an
> easily accessible battery maintenance receptacle be ??
>
> Just to sanity check, is there another compelling reason
> to have a receptacle capable of handling jump-start
> currents ?? If not, is there any standard connector
> configuration for battery maintenance ?? Or what would
> a good choice be ??
> cheers,
> --
> Larry E. James
> Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket II
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle SpamAssassin |
(sc...
Good Afternoon Larry,
One of the reasons I no longer use jump starts has to do with charging rates
on the battery.
Back in years past, I have flown an airplane home with a dead battery by
getting a jump start. As long as there was no electrically dependent system, such
as a retractable landing gear, that needed to be operated, it seemed to me
that if I could stay in day VFR conditions, an electrical failure would be no
problem at all.
However, a few years ago I was operating a certified airplane that used a
fairly small twenty-four volt battery as a power source.
After encountering an early battery failure, I checked with several local
service facilities as to their experience with various suppliers of batteries for
that model aircraft.
I was astounded to hear that they found about a fifty percent early failure
rate for all twenty-four volt batteries of that size. Further investigation
elicited information from the manufacturer that if the battery in question was
not charged in complete accordance with their recommendations, a very short
life could be expected.
They were especially insistent that no effort be made to charge a dead
battery using the aircraft charging system. It was their opinion that a charge
that
strong was beyond the capability of the battery to absorb without causing
damage.
All current production certified batteries have a set of Instructions For
Continued Airworthiness included with the new battery. If those instructions are
not followed, the aircraft is NOT being maintained in accordance with FAA
requirements, I realize the experimental airplanes do not have to be maintained
in that manner, however, I do think it is pertinent that such recommendations
be considered when deciding what maintenance procedures are to be followed.
Suffice it to say, since I have been following the manufacturers
recommendation completely for such batteries, Including purchasing a constant current
charger as they recommended, I have experienced excellent battery life.
Every set of Instructions For Continued Airworthiness that I have read has
contained a prohibition against charging a flat battery by flying the airplane.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 8/22/2005 5:05:55 PM Central Standard Time,
larrymc(at)qconline.com writes:
Larry,
If the jump start was the last thing you took from the battery and you
had magnetos to fly on
one would expect not to worry. There are those without mags and a
battery that needs just
one more jump-start to run. That's a condition some might not have sense
enough to worry
about. If it weren't such a calamity for aviation news, the Darwin
award would satisfy the rest
of us.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
It's a great idea unless you in the other airplane.... White strobe
lights will kill your night vision for about 20 minutes... We(the
airline pilot world) never run our white strobes on the ground. Other
wise the abuse from others will follow....
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before
engine
start.
Regards,
Matt-
>
> The complete line of Airbus airliners has this "air switch" feature on
> the transponder and other systems. I plan to incorporate this idea in
> my latest airplane build. I will include a guarded override switch in
> the event of failure or the need to use the system on the ground.
Other
> items that I plan to use with this "airswitch" are the strobe lights
and
> speed brake systems. I'm just offering a different way of looking at
> things! I find this system reduces workload during hi periods of
work,
> i.e. Entering the runway and exiting the runway. In my years, I have
> seen many a close midair or runway incursions at local and large
> airports. It is my opinion that if you had three less things to do
> entering and exiting the runway you would be more alert as to what is
> going on around instead of knob and switch doodling while moving the
> airplane on the ground. Just an idea...
>
> Mike Larkin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder "air switch"
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an
> answer
>>to my question. I originally asked:
>>
>>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
the
> use
>>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
mode
> as
>>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything
> about
>>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>>
>>Allow me to add some additional information:
>>
>>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair
T2000.
> The
>>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from
ground
>> (configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>>
>>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>> Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class
"B",
> so
>>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO
> and
>>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>> inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA
> plane.
>>
>>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would
> be no
>>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>>
>>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
>
> The "air switch" was suggested as a means for keeping the
> transponder from being accidently left ON during ground ops.
> Some airport radar systems were vulnerable to strong signal
> overload when bunches aircraft taxiing on the ground were replying
> to radar interrogations.
>
> This is unlikely to be an issue for the way you'll use a Part 103
> aircraft. Even if it were an "issue" . . . it's one that is easily
> addressed with attention to checklists that turn transponder ON on
> takeoff roll and turn it back off as you leave the active runway.
>
> I recommend you not install this feature. The vast majority
> of certified ships flying do not have such a switch.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)s4t.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
I recently flew into the Washington, DC ADIZ for the first time. Believe
me, I researched the procedure _very_ carefully, not wanting to fly
formation with Blackhawks and the like. There was some source (the ATIS at
GAI, I think) that instructed me to leave my transponder on until shutdown.
Don't remember seeing it in the NOTAMs, though.
Rick
A-36/RV7A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
FWIW, I have talked to at least two controllers who have said essentially
the same thing. One controller said they have more problems with IFR
departures that forget to turn on the transponders than on-the-ground
squawkers.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw(at)s4t.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
>
>
> I recently flew into the Washington, DC ADIZ for the first time. Believe
> me, I researched the procedure _very_ carefully, not wanting to fly
> formation with Blackhawks and the like. There was some source (the ATIS
> at
> GAI, I think) that instructed me to leave my transponder on until
> shutdown.
> Don't remember seeing it in the NOTAMs, though.
>
> Rick
> A-36/RV7A
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick titsworth <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
One thought on speed brakes came to mind while reading your msg...
Be careful that you don't/can't' somehow leave them on (but suppressed by the air
switch) during takeoff. Last thing you want is them automatically re-deploying
just as/after you rotate.
Why you can always check (and double check) the manual switch as part of your takeoff
check - this re-introduces pilot workload. Seems I'd rather have the workload
on the ground after landing than as another final takeoff check.
The failure mode of them being left on, on the ground (no real harm?) seems a lot
less critical than having them deploy on departure.
While taxiing on the ground I'm periodically glancing at the wings/tips for clearence
(low wing) so am more apt to spot them as an issue (if missed). An automatic
deployment at departure, may have me looking around in several unusual
places for potential causes of reduced performance. On an IFR departure these
head movements during a time known to be sucesspatble to spacial disorientation
is asking for trouble.
I assume you could design/build it as a "one way" air switch supression circuit
- such that the air swicth would only supress them (not the converse even if
the manual switch was left on). Thus, the manual switch would need to be re-cycled
(--> off --> on) to redeploy them (in case the manual switch was left on).
In this scenario, this introduced more workload during subsequent deploments
(if previously left on) even if only an additional toggle. And it adds yet
more complexity of the design and thus the likelihood of failure.
Perhaps a light on/near the manual switch or annunciator indicating the manual
switch is still set to "deploy" is a complexity compromise. This might be helpful
as a failsafe indication during a go-around - even with an manual-only approach.
Given the seemingly equall overall workload (at best) and/or ignoring the unfavorable
relative failure effects, I'd opt for the simpler system (no air switch
on brakes) - less to go wrong, trouble shoot, inspect, fix, etc.
Perhaps I mis-understood, or am missing something. Please feel free to comment/educate.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Larkin <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
It's a great idea unless you in the other airplane.... White strobe
lights will kill your night vision for about 20 minutes... We(the
airline pilot world) never run our white strobes on the ground. Other
wise the abuse from others will follow....
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before
engine
start.
Regards,
Matt-
>
> The complete line of Airbus airliners has this "air switch" feature on
> the transponder and other systems. I plan to incorporate this idea in
> my latest airplane build. I will include a guarded override switch in
> the event of failure or the need to use the system on the ground.
Other
> items that I plan to use with this "airswitch" are the strobe lights
and
> speed brake systems. I'm just offering a different way of looking at
> things! I find this system reduces workload during hi periods of
work,
> i.e. Entering the runway and exiting the runway. In my years, I have
> seen many a close midair or runway incursions at local and large
> airports. It is my opinion that if you had three less things to do
> entering and exiting the runway you would be more alert as to what is
> going on around instead of knob and switch doodling while moving the
> airplane on the ground. Just an idea...
>
> Mike Larkin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder "air switch"
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an
> answer
>>to my question. I originally asked:
>>
>>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
the
> use
>>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
mode
> as
>>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything
> about
>>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>>
>>Allow me to add some additional information:
>>
>>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair
T2000.
> The
>>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from
ground
>> (configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>>
>>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>> Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class
"B",
> so
>>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO
> and
>>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>> inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA
> plane.
>>
>>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would
> be no
>>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>>
>>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
>
> The "air switch" was suggested as a means for keeping the
> transponder from being accidently left ON during ground ops.
> Some airport radar systems were vulnerable to strong signal
> overload when bunches aircraft taxiing on the ground were replying
> to radar interrogations.
>
> This is unlikely to be an issue for the way you'll use a Part 103
> aircraft. Even if it were an "issue" . . . it's one that is easily
> addressed with attention to checklists that turn transponder ON on
> takeoff roll and turn it back off as you leave the active runway.
>
> I recommend you not install this feature. The vast majority
> of certified ships flying do not have such a switch.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ recharging |
This condition was fairly common with 24 volt light aircraft
(small, FLOODED batteries) and 60 to 125A alternators. However,
the RG battery, especially in 12v sizes is very tollerant of
high recharge rates. When we certified the Genesis RG batteries
into certified ships about 12 years ago, we showed that a completely
discharged, RG battery was not at-risk for damage when used in
the typical 60A, constant voltage aircraft electrical system. This
notion is supported by words we find on page 7 of
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-002_0605.pdf
. . . where tolerance to high recharge rates is described.
Even Concord describes a procedure on page 8 of
http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/IFCA1.pdf
describes an in situ recharge of a depleted battery where
a C1 (recharge rate equal to rating on battery) is allowed.
If one jump-starts an airplane with an 17 a.h. RG battery,
you could turn on all exterior lighting for a few minutes
after the engine is started. This will soak up some of the
alternator's output current an limit the initial recharge
rate. All the lights can be turned off after 5 minutes because
the battery's ability to accept charge at normal bus voltage
will have fallen to reasonable values.
It's a given that heavily discharging a battery and allowing
it to set for a long time will have serious impact on service
life of the battery . . . probably more damage than any degradation
due to a few minutes at a high recharge rate.
Every manufacturer would like for you to discharge at the 20
hour rate and recharge at the 10 hour rate in order to maximize
probability of meeting their published service life values. If one
subscribes to the new-cheap-battery-every-year philosophy,
risk to battery by subjecting it to a operating alternator
recharge event will have no practical effect on service life
of the battery.
In 24 years and 900 hours of flying, I've had to jump-start
or prop an airplane perhaps a half dozen times. Assuming that's
an exemplar rate for the fleet, that's a jump start once every
150 hours (every three years for average GA aircraft utilization).
At that rate, I would put one deep-discharge, heavy-recharge cycle
on a battery once every three years and on every third installed
battery. 17 a.h. or larger RG batteries charged by 40-60 amp
alternators are going to be just fine.
Of course, if you've installed a premium battery and expect to
invest in periodic cap-checking to determine continued airworthiness,
and assuming you kept very good records on a once-every-150hrs event,
you might see some benefits to very gentle recharging but they're
benefits only if you have all that time and test equipment to
assign to the task.
Bob . . .
>Good Afternoon Larry,
>
>One of the reasons I no longer use jump starts has to do with charging rates
>on the battery.
>
>Back in years past, I have flown an airplane home with a dead battery by
>getting a jump start. As long as there was no electrically dependent
>system, such
>as a retractable landing gear, that needed to be operated, it seemed to me
>that if I could stay in day VFR conditions, an electrical failure would be no
>problem at all.
>
>However, a few years ago I was operating a certified airplane that used a
>fairly small twenty-four volt battery as a power source.
>
>After encountering an early battery failure, I checked with several local
>service facilities as to their experience with various suppliers of
>batteries for
>that model aircraft.
>
>I was astounded to hear that they found about a fifty percent early failure
>rate for all twenty-four volt batteries of that size. Further investigation
>elicited information from the manufacturer that if the battery in question
>was
>not charged in complete accordance with their recommendations, a very short
>life could be expected.
>
>They were especially insistent that no effort be made to charge a dead
>battery using the aircraft charging system. It was their opinion that a
>charge that
>strong was beyond the capability of the battery to absorb without causing
>damage.
>
>All current production certified batteries have a set of Instructions For
>Continued Airworthiness included with the new battery. If those
>instructions are
>not followed, the aircraft is NOT being maintained in accordance with FAA
>requirements, I realize the experimental airplanes do not have to be
>maintained
>in that manner, however, I do think it is pertinent that such recommendations
>be considered when deciding what maintenance procedures are to be followed.
>
>Suffice it to say, since I have been following the manufacturers
>recommendation completely for such batteries, Including purchasing a
>constant current
>charger as they recommended, I have experienced excellent battery life.
>
>Every set of Instructions For Continued Airworthiness that I have read has
>contained a prohibition against charging a flat battery by flying the
>airplane.
>
>Happy Skies,
In a message dated 8/22/2005 5:05:55 PM Central Standard Time,
larrymc(at)qconline.com writes:
Larry,
If the jump start was the last thing you took from the battery and you
had magnetos to fly on one would expect not to worry. There are
those without mags and a battery that needs just one more jump-start
to run. That's a condition some might not have sense enough to worry
about. If it weren't such a calamity for aviation news, the Darwin
award would satisfy the rest of us.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
>
>
>Bob,
>Your response to Brian Cross' findings concerning cause of low voltage has
>me wondering if a low voltage situation that I have is for the same reason.
> I am using the OVA protection circuit for a built-in regulator per your
>diagram (page 10) with the 4-terminal contactor (p/n S701-1). Since it is
>the same connection from the main bus that supplies power to the contactor
>and is the sense line to the Alt. terminal C via the bat/alt switch could
>this be causing low voltage at the sense feed line? Because of resistance in
>the switch and/or power requirement of the contactor?
>My RMI uMonitor says I am getting 13.6 volts. If I read the ND alternator
>data sheet correctly it should be putting out between 14.2 and 14.8 volts.
The condition I described applies only to externally regulated
alternators. Internally regulated alternators sense bus voltage
right at the b-lead terminal unless you've also connected the
alernator's "S" (sense lead) to some lead at the bus.
As an experiment, try measuring voltage right at the b-lead
terminal. If it's 14.2 to 14.8, then you have excessive voltage
drop in wiring. If it's low there too, then I suspect the regulator
in the alternator is bad. Just for grins, if your alternator has
an "S" lead, try hooking this to the bus through some temporary
wire and see what the bus voltage does with the external sense
option. Does the data sheet for your alternator talk about an
"S" lead and perhaps how to use it?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
Yes, we have run into that at Houston Intercontinental. On the Airbus,
we tell the controllers that our transponder it is not available on the
ground and they have to live with it. A transponder is for airborne
operations and is not required for ground operations. It is my
experience that controllers often want many things they can't have. Just
remember controllers work for you and if the folks in Washington have
there way you will be paying them directly for everything in the near
future. I suspect most pilots will be come more vocal about what they
will and won't do as the customer.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard McCraw
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
I recently flew into the Washington, DC ADIZ for the first time.
Believe
me, I researched the procedure _very_ carefully, not wanting to fly
formation with Blackhawks and the like. There was some source (the ATIS
at
GAI, I think) that instructed me to leave my transponder on until
shutdown.
Don't remember seeing it in the NOTAMs, though.
Rick
A-36/RV7A
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
I should have been a little more clear on the speed brakes. The air
switch will be on the speed brake audio warning system not on the speed
brakes brakes.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
titsworth
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
One thought on speed brakes came to mind while reading your msg...
Be careful that you don't/can't' somehow leave them on (but suppressed
by the air switch) during takeoff. Last thing you want is them
automatically re-deploying just as/after you rotate.
Why you can always check (and double check) the manual switch as part of
your takeoff check - this re-introduces pilot workload. Seems I'd
rather have the workload on the ground after landing than as another
final takeoff check.
The failure mode of them being left on, on the ground (no real harm?)
seems a lot less critical than having them deploy on departure.
While taxiing on the ground I'm periodically glancing at the wings/tips
for clearence (low wing) so am more apt to spot them as an issue (if
missed). An automatic deployment at departure, may have me looking
around in several unusual places for potential causes of reduced
performance. On an IFR departure these head movements during a time
known to be sucesspatble to spacial disorientation is asking for
trouble.
I assume you could design/build it as a "one way" air switch supression
circuit - such that the air swicth would only supress them (not the
converse even if the manual switch was left on). Thus, the manual
switch would need to be re-cycled (--> off --> on) to redeploy them (in
case the manual switch was left on). In this scenario, this introduced
more workload during subsequent deploments (if previously left on) even
if only an additional toggle. And it adds yet more complexity of the
design and thus the likelihood of failure.
Perhaps a light on/near the manual switch or annunciator indicating the
manual switch is still set to "deploy" is a complexity compromise. This
might be helpful as a failsafe indication during a go-around - even with
an manual-only approach.
Given the seemingly equall overall workload (at best) and/or ignoring
the unfavorable relative failure effects, I'd opt for the simpler system
(no air switch on brakes) - less to go wrong, trouble shoot, inspect,
fix, etc.
Perhaps I mis-understood, or am missing something. Please feel free to
comment/educate.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Larkin <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
It's a great idea unless you in the other airplane.... White strobe
lights will kill your night vision for about 20 minutes... We(the
airline pilot world) never run our white strobes on the ground. Other
wise the abuse from others will follow....
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before
engine
start.
Regards,
Matt-
>
> The complete line of Airbus airliners has this "air switch" feature on
> the transponder and other systems. I plan to incorporate this idea in
> my latest airplane build. I will include a guarded override switch in
> the event of failure or the need to use the system on the ground.
Other
> items that I plan to use with this "airswitch" are the strobe lights
and
> speed brake systems. I'm just offering a different way of looking at
> things! I find this system reduces workload during hi periods of
work,
> i.e. Entering the runway and exiting the runway. In my years, I have
> seen many a close midair or runway incursions at local and large
> airports. It is my opinion that if you had three less things to do
> entering and exiting the runway you would be more alert as to what is
> going on around instead of knob and switch doodling while moving the
> airplane on the ground. Just an idea...
>
> Mike Larkin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder "air switch"
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Thanks, guys, for your help. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten an
> answer
>>to my question. I originally asked:
>>
>>"In researching Transponders, many of the Install Manuals reference
the
> use
>>of an "Air Switch" to switch the Transponder in and out of Standby
mode
> as
>>the aircraft's airspeed crosses 30 kts+/-. Does anyone know anything
> about
>>these Air Switches and/or a source for them?"
>>
>>Allow me to add some additional information:
>>
>>The Transponder that I have narrowed my focus to is the Microair
T2000.
> The
>>"Air Switch" is used to either ground a pin or lift the pin from
ground
>> (configurable). It will not accept GPS information.
>>
>>Don't laugh, but I will be using the transponder on a US Part 103
>> Ultralight. I will be operating just outside of the Chicago Class
"B",
> so
>>I'd like to make sure that I stick out a bit. I checked with the FSDO
> and
>>they said I could do it, but the XPDR will have to undergo the same
>> inspections and checks that it would if it were installed in a GA
> plane.
>>
>>And since I will be operating out of an untowered airport, there would
> be no
>>advantage to having the XPDR "on" while on the ground.
>>
>>So, any help with the switch would be greatly appreciated....
>
> The "air switch" was suggested as a means for keeping the
> transponder from being accidently left ON during ground ops.
> Some airport radar systems were vulnerable to strong signal
> overload when bunches aircraft taxiing on the ground were replying
> to radar interrogations.
>
> This is unlikely to be an issue for the way you'll use a Part 103
> aircraft. Even if it were an "issue" . . . it's one that is easily
> addressed with attention to checklists that turn transponder ON on
> takeoff roll and turn it back off as you leave the active runway.
>
> I recommend you not install this feature. The vast majority
> of certified ships flying do not have such a switch.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
> --
> 8/18/2005
>
>
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
That seems to be changing somewhat. I believe there are a number of
airports around the world now where transponder on is standard for all
taxiing and a requirement to operate during reduced visibility?? I'd
expect this to slowly become normal at major North American airports as
surface movement tracking equipment becomes more common. Too many runway
incursions seem to be occurring.
Ken
Mike Larkin wrote:
>
>Yes, we have run into that at Houston Intercontinental. On the Airbus,
>we tell the controllers that our transponder it is not available on the
>ground and they have to live with it. A transponder is for airborne
>operations and is not required for ground operations. It is my
>experience that controllers often want many things they can't have. Just
>remember controllers work for you and if the folks in Washington have
>there way you will be paying them directly for everything in the near
>future. I suspect most pilots will be come more vocal about what they
>will and won't do as the customer.
>
>Mike Larkin
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ recharging |
Another consideration may be that it is not particularly uncommon for
compact automotive alternators to fail when charging a dead battery.
Some alternators come with admonishments in the box stating not to do
that. If you delay replacing a dying battery too long in a car, you have
a good chance of also having to replace the alternator.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
> This condition was fairly common with 24 volt light aircraft
> (small, FLOODED batteries) and 60 to 125A alternators. However,
> the RG battery, especially in 12v sizes is very tollerant of
> high recharge rates. When we certified the Genesis RG batteries
> into certified ships about 12 years ago, we showed that a completely
> discharged, RG battery was not at-risk for damage when used in
> the typical 60A, constant voltage aircraft electrical system. This
> notion is supported by words we find on page 7 of
>
> http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US-GPL-AM-002_0605.pdf
>
> . . . where tolerance to high recharge rates is described.
>
>
snip
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
Stormy,
I apologize for not expanding more. My concern is with the torsional resonance
that all parts of our Lycoming engines are subjected to. This phenomenon subjects
parts to forces much higher than you would think. For a better explanation
see:
http://www.epi-eng.com/ET-PistonExcit.htm
http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/Torsional/index.html
The second link deals with the effects of torsional resonance on PSRUs. However,
the effects are felt by all rotating componants in the system.
My point is to show that there is more than meets the eye to what may appear as
a "simple" gear.
Charlie Kuss
PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the Rockwell hardness
of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.
---- sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Idyllic or not, we'll all have to wait and see what the longer term field experience
is with these gears. For me, the most relevant point is that made by
Brad, who states the Lycoming gears they were copying were also not case-hardened.
If that's correct, we're probably looking at an isolated failure here.
Time will tell.
>
> -Stormy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
>
>
>
> Stormy,
> Your idyllic vision of the gear's life would be true, IF we were dealing with
> "constant combustion" (turbine or jet) engines. However, our Lycomings are 4
> cylinder "intermittent combustion" engines. The gears need to be hardened to
> take the constant "jack hammering" they receive due to this process. This
> process is also what made both Lycoming and Continental quit making geared
> piston engines.
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sportav8r(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about the gear hardness.
Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more details.
-Stormy
>>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the Rockwell hardness
of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com> |
| Subject: | Ammeter Shunt connection |
Please forgive the question, I sure I'm missing something.
In chapter 7 of aeroelectric connection, Bob recommends putting the ammeter
shunt in the battery earth lead and states that a 100amp shunt should not be
worried by 200+ amp cranking currents. However, in all the Z diagrams the
shunt is in the alternator B lead. As far as I can see this can then only
measure alternator output and not battery charge/discharge.
What is the received wisdom on this one?
Best regards
Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | trim relay deck trim speed control |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Lui,
This reply may be too late for your benefit, but I will explain how I
approached this problem in hopes that it will help others.
I used two of the pwm light dimmer kits from mpja.com, p/n 4057 MD, and
substituted four RatShack DPDT relays (two per board) for the reversing
switches. With a little futzing, these relays will fit into the same
holes in the board intended for the reversing switch. These are
activated by the coolie hat switch. One board controls the aileron
servo, the other controls the elevator servo.
The last step is to remotely mount the potentiometer. This requires a
3-wire harness long enough to reach the panel, or wherever you choose to
mount it. I used a higher quality "dual" pot rather than the ones
supplied in the kit. This way, one knob controls the speed to both
servos.
To make things really kosher, I mounted both boards in a metal project
box and then mounted the box under the pilot's seat. Works great!
Mark Steitle
Lancair ES (N208TX)
>
>
>
>I have the Infinity Aeropsace Trim Relay Deck, see at
>
>http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Relay_Deck_Wiring_Schematic.jpg
>
>I am trying to install a Ray Allen Speed control for the pitch trim but
have
>a few ?? on the wiring.
>
>http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsSPD.pdf
>
>Not sure where to connect the red wire from the Speed control to the
>Infinity Relay Deck. The Relay Deck only has a
>
>1. A port for Trim motor
>2. B port for Trim motor
>3. +12 v
>4. Ground
>
>It doesn't have a provision for "blue wire" like shown on Diagram 2 of
the
>Ray Allen schematic. I guess it is so simple that I don't see it.
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Lui
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
Ground radar/tracking is here at many airports. Most of the systems as
it has been explained to me, do not use airborne transponders for this
function. It is my understanding that at airports that ask for aircraft
to leave transponders on are undergoing a test program to explore new
ideas and technologies. The high dollar systems at such places like
London's Heathrow do not use mode A transponding.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
That seems to be changing somewhat. I believe there are a number of
airports around the world now where transponder on is standard for all
taxiing and a requirement to operate during reduced visibility?? I'd
expect this to slowly become normal at major North American airports as
surface movement tracking equipment becomes more common. Too many runway
incursions seem to be occurring.
Ken
Mike Larkin wrote:
>
>Yes, we have run into that at Houston Intercontinental. On the Airbus,
>we tell the controllers that our transponder it is not available on the
>ground and they have to live with it. A transponder is for airborne
>operations and is not required for ground operations. It is my
>experience that controllers often want many things they can't have.
Just
>remember controllers work for you and if the folks in Washington have
>there way you will be paying them directly for everything in the near
>future. I suspect most pilots will be come more vocal about what they
>will and won't do as the customer.
>
>Mike Larkin
>
>
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
I teach pilots to never turn on the strobes until taking the active runway
for takeoff - especially in low light or night conditions.
Stan Sutterfield
In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before engine
start.
Regards,
Matt-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
| From: | "Craig P. Steffen" <craig(at)craigsteffen.net> |
>
> I teach pilots to never turn on the strobes until taking the active runway
> for takeoff - especially in low light or night conditions.
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before engine
> start.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
The relevant FAR (in part):
************
FAR 91.209 Aircraft lights.
No person may:
...
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
interest of safety to turn the lights off.
************
It just occured to me to wonder; when they say "Operate an aircraft",
do they mean in the air, or at all?
I'm pretty sure that airliners always have their rotating lights
running whenever their engines are on.
Craig Steffen
--
craig(at)craigsteffen.net
public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
Yes, I would agree. The two questions are what is "safe" and what is
"operate". On a lighter note, which pilot-in-command.
I think everyone would agree that making oneself as visible to others
(be it airplane, truck, worker, or ground crew) as possible is
important. However, at larger airports other airplanes have to operate
safely at the same time. Therefore, a bright white three position
double flash strobe being turned off during taxi operations may be
safer. This seems to be the position at many airlines today. I
remember a night while taxing for takeoff at Boston's Logan Airport and
their was a Cirrus taxing for takeoff with the type of strobes mentioned
above going full tilt. Their were many airplanes taxing in a long line
this night. The lights were so bright and distracting many airplanes
maintained a much larger distance from that airplane than normal which
caused a string-out of the taxi line. One other byproduct were the many
humorous comments over the radio. The main point is you could see him
but you couldn't see anyone else....
Yes we run the rotating beacons when ever an engine is running or
external system (i.e. flaps, slats, spoilers, ect.) is being operated.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
P. Steffen
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
>
> I teach pilots to never turn on the strobes until taking the active
runway
> for takeoff - especially in low light or night conditions.
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before
engine
> start.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
The relevant FAR (in part):
************
FAR 91.209 Aircraft lights.
No person may:
...
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
interest of safety to turn the lights off.
************
It just occured to me to wonder; when they say "Operate an aircraft",
do they mean in the air, or at all?
I'm pretty sure that airliners always have their rotating lights
running whenever their engines are on.
Craig Steffen
--
craig(at)craigsteffen.net
public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
--
8/22/2005
--
8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
>Please forgive the question, I sure I'm missing something.
>
>In chapter 7 of aeroelectric connection, Bob recommends putting the ammeter
>shunt in the battery earth lead and states that a 100amp shunt should not be
>worried by 200+ amp cranking currents. However, in all the Z diagrams the
>shunt is in the alternator B lead. As far as I can see this can then only
>measure alternator output and not battery charge/discharge.
>
>What is the received wisdom on this one?
That chapter is among the next to be updated in R12. The short
answer is install shunts as shown in Z-figures, not chapter 7.
If you believe a battery ammeter is useful to you, use a hall
effect device.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> recharging |
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ |
recharging
>
>Another consideration may be that it is not particularly uncommon for
>compact automotive alternators to fail when charging a dead battery.
>Some alternators come with admonishments in the box stating not to do
>that. If you delay replacing a dying battery too long in a car, you have
>a good chance of also having to replace the alternator.
>Ken
Hmmmm . . . given public propensity for leaving accessories
or lights on after parking a car, this vulnerability might pose
significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which
a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current
limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about
alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ recharging |
| From: | "Craig P. Steffen" <craig(at)craigsteffen.net> |
> significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which
> a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current
> limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about
> alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence.
Would it be possible that a battery be old and discharged enough to
draw enough current that the alternator _cannot_ maintain a reasonable
system voltage within its maximum rated output? I don't actually
know, I'm just wondering.
Craig Steffen
--
craig(at)craigsteffen.net
public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ recharging |
I figure that they overheat??
Some Delcos on large cars with fairly high running loads are somewhat
notorious for popping diodes if the battery is run down.
I don't know the details of how alternators are rated but I suspect that
many cannot tolerate full output for very long in common automotive
applications. I assume that high underhood temperatures and poor cooling
airflow are significant factors. If possible, I always recommend
charging rather than jump starting if a battery is run down. I used to
think that mechanics were ripping people off by replacing the battery
when the alternator died. Now I think it is sometimes a good idea and
that it reduces the chance of another failure and an unhappy customer.
Probably not an issue on a Lycoming with the alternator up front in the
breeze.
Ken
Craig P. Steffen wrote:
>
>
>
>> significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which
>> a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current
>> limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about
>> alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence.
>>
>>
>
>Would it be possible that a battery be old and discharged enough to
>draw enough current that the alternator _cannot_ maintain a reasonable
>system voltage within its maximum rated output? I don't actually
>know, I'm just wondering.
>
>Craig Steffen
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> recharging |
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ |
recharging
I've never heard of this in all my decades of driving cars and running
batteries down. (Maybe because I switched to German and Japanese cars back
when American companies were trying to find ways to make me spend a fortune
on parts?)
Dave Morris
At 05:53 PM 8/23/2005, you wrote:
>
>I figure that they overheat??
>Some Delcos on large cars with fairly high running loads are somewhat
>notorious for popping diodes if the battery is run down.
>I don't know the details of how alternators are rated but I suspect that
>many cannot tolerate full output for very long in common automotive
>applications. I assume that high underhood temperatures and poor cooling
>airflow are significant factors. If possible, I always recommend
>charging rather than jump starting if a battery is run down. I used to
>think that mechanics were ripping people off by replacing the battery
>when the alternator died. Now I think it is sometimes a good idea and
>that it reduces the chance of another failure and an unhappy customer.
>Probably not an issue on a Lycoming with the alternator up front in the
>breeze.
>Ken
>
>Craig P. Steffen wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which
> >> a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current
> >> limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about
> >> alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Would it be possible that a battery be old and discharged enough to
> >draw enough current that the alternator _cannot_ maintain a reasonable
> >system voltage within its maximum rated output? I don't actually
> >know, I'm just wondering.
> >
> >Craig Steffen
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matthew Brandes" <matthew(at)n523rv.com> |
| Subject: | Switch label requirements |
Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space
constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
this.
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Wiring)
#90569
<http://www.n523rv.com/> http://www.n523rv.com
EAA Chapter 1329 President
EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
In a message dated 8/24/05 8:29:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
matthew(at)n523rv.com writes:
> Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space
> constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> this.
>>>
Sorta depends on your DAR- mine required function and ON/OFF labels for
everything (with some minor exceptions) and did allow liberal use of tape with
the
labels written with a Sharpie for those I'd omitted- ditto for tail # on
panel, baggage capacity etc, and don't forget a compass correction card. I did
have "ON" engraved above my main switch row with a line that extended in either
direction to end of switches, which was OK for him, but I had to add several
"OFF" labels below. Luckily I'd purchased a large sheet of stick-on labels from
Spruce which sufficed for a lot of items. All of the "temporaries" now
replaced with some really tiny stick on labels made on a Brother label printer.
I
have seen some panels on Experimentals with darn near nothing labelled,
however. Best to check with your DAR before his appointment!
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ammeter Shunt connection |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<>
8/24/2005
Hello Bob Nuckolls, You seem to be implying above that a shunt arrangement
is the preferred way to measure amperage coming out of an alternator and a
hall effect device is the preferred way to measure amperage flowing into or
out of a battery. Is that correct?
Is it OK to also use a hall effect device to measure current flowing out of
an alternator?
Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
battery?
Thank you.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> recharging |
| Subject: | Re: risks to battery for in situ |
recharging
>
>
> > significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which
> > a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current
> > limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about
> > alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence.
>
>Would it be possible that a battery be old and discharged enough to
>draw enough current that the alternator _cannot_ maintain a reasonable
>system voltage within its maximum rated output? I don't actually
>know, I'm just wondering.
The battery doesn't have to be "old" . . . a brand new, totally
discharged battery placed across a well-spun alternator will cause
the alternator to go to full output which will be split between
battery recharge current and system running loads for whatever is
turned on.
An alternator in the aviation business is rated for continuous
operation at nameplate rated output under worst case conditions
for cooling. This means that to certify the installation, you
must DEMONSTRATE adequate cooling under hot-day, extended climb
at Vx with alternator loaded to the nameplate rating.
Whether this output current is demanded by a discharged
battery or a kilowatt stereo system is transparent to the
alternator. For a systems manufacturer to place limitations
on alternator expectations suggests a tacit if not overt
admission that the alternator as installed is marginally
cooled.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | alan_products <alan_products(at)blarg.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!) According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need for interior paint! ;-)
-Alan Erickson
In a message dated 8/24/05 8:29:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
matthew(at)n523rv.com writes:
> Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space
> constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> this.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
>
> < answer is install shunts as shown in Z-figures, not chapter 7.
> If you believe a battery ammeter is useful to you, use a hall
> effect device. Bob . . .>>
>
>8/24/2005
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls, You seem to be implying above that a shunt arrangement
>is the preferred way to measure amperage coming out of an alternator and a
>hall effect device is the preferred way to measure amperage flowing into or
>out of a battery. Is that correct?
One can "prefer" any number and type of instrumentation they
wish. Electrical system instrumentation has (since day-one)
been relied upon for making pilot aware of alternator failures.
Such displays are NOT good warning devices. Active notification
of low voltage (flashing light) is the best method of getting
the pilot's attention.
Beyond this simple notification, classic implementation of
ammeters and voltmeters are ONLY useful for system diagnosis
on the ground and do not help you operate the airplane. Given
that most troubleshooting operations will dictate lots of voltage,
resistance and current measurements not displayed on panel instruments.
The logical conclusion is that you'll never get all the data you
need to know from panel mounted displays. If you need to get
out test equipment to do the whole job . . . the it follows that
whatever you plan to display on the panel is a toss-up. You can
choose to display LOTS of data or NO data without materially
influencing the outcome of flight after being notified that
a failure has occurred. Similarly, the number and kind of panel
displays for electrical parameters will not materially affect
efforts required to diagnose and fix the problem on the ground.
>Is it OK to also use a hall effect device to measure current flowing out of
>an alternator?
You bet.
>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
>battery?
Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system
by way of the starter contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Bob,
Question below:
>
>
>
>>
>> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls,
>> III"
>>
>>
snip
>
>>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
>> battery?
>
> Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
> on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
> way of the starter contactor.
>
Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
> Bob . . .
>
>
Just trying to keep up with the stuff I thought I knew... :)
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>>>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
>>>battery?
>>>
>>>
>> Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
>> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
>> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
>> on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
>>way of the starter contactor.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
>mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
>
>
>
>correct, but to show ampere in/out it has to be in the feed line between battery
and consumers, the alternator starter contactor connection is not.
>
>
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
> Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little
> space
> constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> this.
Now try to follow my logic here....
Is it a really a switch if it does not have a label? How about if it doesn't
have an actuator? If the switch is not connected to the circuit...is it
still a switch?
I read a story once where a TV repair man diagnosed a TV set where the
owners were putting quarters ( 25-cent coins) into an air opening in the TV.
This shorted a broken foil on a circuit board and made the TV work. When the
circuit board heated up, the quarter would drop into the bottom of the box
and the TV would shut off. Of course the ON-OFF switch did nothing. The
repair man fixed the TV for the accumulated quarters.
Question--should the slot have been labeled?
Come on Matthew! Flying is hard enough without unlabeled switches. Airplanes
crash all the time because someone pulls the cabin heat when they mean to
pull the carb heat. People push on the gas pedal in a car when they mean to
push on the brake. Life is hard, flying is dangerous...don't add to the
confusion. Label the switches.
I mentioned a couple months ago that decalomanias (water slide decals) can
be made with an inkjet printer. Just Google it. You can even buy inks for
your injet that---
a) Glow in the dark
b) Glow brightly in UV
c) Change color with temperature.
d) Are invisible (for those who REALLY have too much time on their hands).
These make great switch labels and even placards and fancy insignias. With a
little care and acrylic overspray, they look silkscreened. A truly
"enabling" technology for the home builder.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
When trouble arises and things look bad,
there is always one individual who perceives
a solution and is willing to take command.
Very often, that individual is crazy.
--Dave Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting |
>
>
> As an experiment, try measuring voltage right at the b-lead
> terminal. If it's 14.2 to 14.8, then you have excessive voltage
> drop in wiring. If it's low there too, then I suspect the regulator
> in the alternator is bad. Just for grins, if your alternator has
> an "S" lead, try hooking this to the bus through some temporary
> wire and see what the bus voltage does with the external sense
> option. Does the data sheet for your alternator talk about an
> "S" lead and perhaps how to use it?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>No "S" lead on the internal regulated alt. Just an"IGN" terminal.
>Understand the IGN lead is not for field input or voltage level sensing.
>Would you please explain the function of the IGN lead? Is it to supply
>initial power to the electronic devices in the regulator to start the alt ?
>My apologies if you have done this in prior postings.
For the vast majority of internally regulated alternators the IGN
lead is for rudimentary control only . . . and it may or may not
be able to turn an alternator off once it's been turned on.
If you don't have an "S" lead, then all voltage sense is done at
the b-lead terminal with no other options. Measure voltage of
the operating alternator from b-lead to case ground.
Report your findings here and we'll go to the next step for
isolating the cause of symptoms you've cited above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Question below:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls,
> >> III"
> >>
> >>
>
>snip
>
> >
> >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a
> >> battery?
> >
> > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
> > the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
> > alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early
> > on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
> > way of the starter contactor.
> >
>
>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
>mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
This isn't about the shunt, it's about how the ammeter functions.
For it to be a minus-zero-plus reading ammeter, the instrument (or
it's shunt) needs to reside in the battery feeder -AND- you need to
bring the b-lead to the bus. See figure 7-11 and 7-12 in the 'Connection
but ignore Figure 7-13 as a poor idea which will be eliminated at
the next revision.
Van's ammeter is a battery discharge-o-charge style device and
must be wired per 7-11 as in most older Cessnas and per his
wiring instructions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
Eric,
My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
to fly the plane?
Dave Morris
At 02:55 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>
> > Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the
> > panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little
> > space
> > constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about
> > this.
>
>Now try to follow my logic here....
>
>Is it a really a switch if it does not have a label? How about if it doesn't
>have an actuator? If the switch is not connected to the circuit...is it
>still a switch?
>
>I read a story once where a TV repair man diagnosed a TV set where the
>owners were putting quarters ( 25-cent coins) into an air opening in the TV.
>This shorted a broken foil on a circuit board and made the TV work. When the
>circuit board heated up, the quarter would drop into the bottom of the box
>and the TV would shut off. Of course the ON-OFF switch did nothing. The
>repair man fixed the TV for the accumulated quarters.
>
>Question--should the slot have been labeled?
>
>Come on Matthew! Flying is hard enough without unlabeled switches. Airplanes
>crash all the time because someone pulls the cabin heat when they mean to
>pull the carb heat. People push on the gas pedal in a car when they mean to
>push on the brake. Life is hard, flying is dangerous...don't add to the
>confusion. Label the switches.
>
>I mentioned a couple months ago that decalomanias (water slide decals) can
>be made with an inkjet printer. Just Google it. You can even buy inks for
>your injet that---
>
>a) Glow in the dark
>b) Glow brightly in UV
>c) Change color with temperature.
>d) Are invisible (for those who REALLY have too much time on their hands).
>
>These make great switch labels and even placards and fancy insignias. With a
>little care and acrylic overspray, they look silkscreened. A truly
>"enabling" technology for the home builder.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>(508) 764-2072
>
>When trouble arises and things look bad,
>there is always one individual who perceives
>a solution and is willing to take command.
>Very often, that individual is crazy.
> --Dave Barry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
There's lots of room for improvement. Tactile discrimination is a good thing but
even in the automotive world it doesn't cover everything - consider your radio
and heater-A/C controls. Positional differentiation is is my choice. With some
thought you can logically group the switches and provide separation between
the groups so you can find the group by feel. I'm putting the "important" switches
in easy to find positions, e.g. e-bus, landing lights at edges of groups,
flaps and boost separate and by the throttle and mixture. The concept is not
mine and not new - I think it came from Bob's book but it even appears in autos,
e.g. power window & door lock groupings. That's the beauty of OBAM, you can
follow whatever scheme suits your needs.
Greg Young
________________________________
Eric,
My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
to fly the plane?
Dave Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Oh, okay.. It seems like the implied goal is to not run the starting
currents through the ammeter shunt because it will tend to slap an analog
meter pretty hard when the starter is cycled. Didn't we discuss this a
few years ago, and decide that it probably woudn't actually hurt the meter
to bang the needle against the stop? If that's not so good, it seems like
we could put in a little circuit which when enabled by the starter circuit
would drop the voltage at being fed from the shunt to reduce abuse to the
meter. In either case, the shunt can be in the main feed from the
battery.
The hall effect idea is better. Actually, a flashing light would be
better still... Well... Wait another minute.. I have a thought. You say
that diagnosing electrical problems should be reserved for after you are
on the ground. I can't argue with that. However, I posit that on a new
OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>Question below:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L.
>> Nuckolls,
>> >> III"
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>snip
>>
>> >
>> >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of
>> a
>> >> battery?
>> >
>> > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However,
>> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the
>> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early on
>> to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by
>> > way of the starter contactor.
>> >
>>
>>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote
>> mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right?
>
> This isn't about the shunt, it's about how the ammeter functions. For
> it to be a minus-zero-plus reading ammeter, the instrument (or it's
> shunt) needs to reside in the battery feeder -AND- you need to bring
> the b-lead to the bus. See figure 7-11 and 7-12 in the 'Connection
> but ignore Figure 7-13 as a poor idea which will be eliminated at the
> next revision.
>
> Van's ammeter is a battery discharge-o-charge style device and
> must be wired per 7-11 as in most older Cessnas and per his
> wiring instructions.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote:
>
>
> I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but
> the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't
> already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://
> www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations
> and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!)
> According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need
> for interior paint! ;-)
>
Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of
type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes
in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.
FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are
specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do
agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground
operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could
cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
I've been through all this with my ABDAR and the Tech counselors at OSH. In
essence, if it's labeled in the certified world, the FAA want it labeled on
our panels. I asked for supporting FAR's to sustain that position and was
told, 'There are none'. That's the way it's always been and that's what all
the DAR's will expect.
The point of contention that brought this to me was my DAR'S insistence that
I mark my TPM controls with labels. Long discussion with lots of FAR books.
Only found one reference to TPM controls, that being shape, size and color.
My DAR backed down and said OK.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements
On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote:
>
>
> I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but
> the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't
> already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://
> www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations
> and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!)
> According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need
> for interior paint! ;-)
>
Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of
type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes
in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.
FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are
specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do
agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground
operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could
cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
Here's the extreme on labeling the throttle. Even the friction lock is
labeled:
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Controls/F-100%20Throttle%20With%207lbs%20Junk%20Removed.jpg
Off an F-100 and onto a Dragonfly :)
Dave Morris
At 06:03 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote:
>
>I've been through all this with my ABDAR and the Tech counselors at OSH. In
>essence, if it's labeled in the certified world, the FAA want it labeled on
>our panels. I asked for supporting FAR's to sustain that position and was
>told, 'There are none'. That's the way it's always been and that's what all
>the DAR's will expect.
>
>The point of contention that brought this to me was my DAR'S insistence that
>I mark my TPM controls with labels. Long discussion with lots of FAR books.
>Only found one reference to TPM controls, that being shape, size and color.
>My DAR backed down and said OK.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
>Horton
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements
>
>
>On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but
> > the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't
> > already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://
> > www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations
> > and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!)
> > According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need
> > for interior paint! ;-)
> >
>
>Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability.
>(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of
>type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes
>in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories.
>
>FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are
>specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do
>agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground
>operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could
>cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense.
>
>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>Ottawa, Canada
>http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | re: Switch label requirements |
>There's lots of room for improvement. Tactile discrimination is a good
>thing but
>even in the automotive world it doesn't cover everything - consider your
>radio
>and heater-A/C controls. Positional differentiation is is my choice. With
>some
>thought you can logically group the switches and provide separation between
>the groups so you can find the group by feel. I'm putting the "important"
>switches
>in easy to find positions, e.g. e-bus, landing lights at edges of groups,
>flaps and boost separate and by the throttle and mixture. The concept is
>not
>mine and not new - I think it came from Bob's book but it even appears in
>autos,
>e.g. power window & door lock groupings. That's the beauty of OBAM, you can
>follow whatever scheme suits your needs.Greg Young
BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
>My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
>the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
>to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
>In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
>switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
>designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
>in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
>look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
>you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
>to fly the plane? Dave Morris
Dave and Greg,
I am working on a technical paper regarding design of instrument panels.
Actually, I've been working on it all my life. There is an infinitude of
horrid design out there. There are preposterous design sins which people
just follow because they think that "the way it has been done" is the right
way. The GOOD news is that commercial jets really do have the panel design
thing done very well. You don't have to make your panel look like one in an
A340 Airbus, but you should take from their design some important lessons.
Like---
1) Symmetry is the last resort of the totally untalented.
2) Putting switches or lights in long rows is brain-dead design.
3) Study the mind-boggling functional MOMO instrument panel for a Ferrari
grand prix racecar.
4) Know that bad design is everywhere and it kills people.
5) Dissuade yourself from thinking YOU are at fault when you can't figure
out which way the credit card goes into the swipe slot. Bad design is
everywhere. There were EIGHT ways to put a 5 1/4 inch diskette into A: drive
and only one of them worked. Remember?
Read Ricardo A. Price, in Kitplanes Dec95 and Jan96 and Feb96. I pore over
this stuff. I even have "Confusion in the Cockpit" from 1948 on the subject.
But every time I want to make any comment on the subject I review Price's
articles and am re-impressed. I highly recommend getting the back issues
from Kitplanes (on line) if you have an interest in the subject. It's a real
keeper. ps--Ricardo, can I get your email address?
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7273-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7272-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7271-1.phtml
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
---Clint Eastwood
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gilles Tatry <gilles.tatry(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
As liners pilots, we:
- Turn the rotating beacon on before starting engines, off after engine shutdown,
- Turn the taxi lights on when the aircraft is about to move, off when the aircraft
is stopped,
- Turn the strobe lights and take-off lights on when entering the active runway,
off when leaving the runway.
This is worldwide common use, night and day conditions.
Regards,
Gilles
> Message du 23/08/05 20:07
> De : "Craig P. Steffen"
> A : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Copie =C3=A0 :
> Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
>
>
> >
> > I teach pilots to never turn on the strobes until taking the active runway
> > for takeoff - especially in low light or night conditions.
> > Stan Sutterfield
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> > I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before engine
> > start.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Matt-
>
> The relevant FAR (in part):
>
> ************
>
> FAR 91.209 Aircraft lights.
>
> No person may:
> ...
> (b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
> system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
> anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
> determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
> interest of safety to turn the lights off.
>
> ************
>
> It just occured to me to wonder; when they say "Operate an aircraft",
> do they mean in the air, or at all?
>
> I'm pretty sure that airliners always have their rotating lights
> running whenever their engines are on.
>
> Craig Steffen
>
> --
> craig(at)craigsteffen.net
> public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
> current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
> career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
| Subject: | Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
All,
I'd like to install a thermostatically controlled radiator flap on
my Kitfox. I'd like to remove the engines' thermostat and control the
cooling at the radiator. This prevents a 2-stroke malady called
cold-seizure where the cold water in the radiator dumps into the area
around the cylinders at an uncontrolled rate. (I know it's a poor cooling
system design, but it's light, I'm stuck with it, and I'm looking for the
best work-around.)
I've thought of a couple of possibilities:
1. Ideally I'd have a microprocessor that would take in water
temperature and send a proportional signal to a servo that would control
the radiator flap. Has anyone seen such a thing off the shelf? If not, any
idea how hard it would be to implement?
2. Use a automotive cooling fan sensor to drive a servo that
opens/shuts the flap. I think these sensors open/close only, so the flap
would either open and shut as needed. (I think the time constant on the
system would probably be slow enough to make this work.)
Does anyone have a better idea on how to implement this?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
In a message dated 8/25/2005 9:50:15 AM Central Standard Time,
bnn(at)nethere.com writes:
1. Ideally I'd have a microprocessor that would take in water
temperature and send a proportional signal to a servo that would control
the radiator flap. Has anyone seen such a thing off the shelf? If not, any
idea how hard it would be to implement?
2. Use a automotive cooling fan sensor to drive a servo that
opens/shuts the flap. I think these sensors open/close only, so the flap
would either open and shut as needed. (I think the time constant on the
system would probably be slow enough to make this work.)
Does anyone have a better idea on how to implement this?
How did the old Packards control their shutters?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
How did he do mixture?
At 06:19 PM 8/24/05, you wrote:
>
>
>Here's the extreme on labeling the throttle. Even the friction lock is
>labeled:
>http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Controls/F-100%20Throttle%20With%207lbs%20Junk%20Removed.jpg
>
>Off an F-100 and onto a Dragonfly :)
>
>Dave Morris
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
Oh, okay.. It seems like the implied goal is to not run the starting
currents through the ammeter shunt because it will tend to slap an analog
meter pretty hard when the starter is cycled. Didn't we discuss this a
few years ago, and decide that it probably woudn't actually hurt the meter
to bang the needle against the stop? If that's not so good, it seems like
we could put in a little circuit which when enabled by the starter circuit
would drop the voltage at being fed from the shunt to reduce abuse to the
meter. In either case, the shunt can be in the main feed from the
battery.
The hall effect idea is better. Actually, a flashing light would be
better still... Well... Wait another minute.. I have a thought. You say
that diagnosing electrical problems should be reserved for after you are
on the ground. I can't argue with that. However, I posit that on a new
OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
Your cart is way ahead of the horse. Decide first how a battery
ammeter is "better" than any other form of ammeter . . . i.e. will
ANY form of ammeter help you deal with a particular failure mode
and how would your write a procedure to that explains what to do
when presented with various kinds of "data" from the ammeter? Is
this data even useful in flight? Would it be better to have a pre-planned,
easily executed transition from plan-A to plan-B and simply leave
all the systems management until later?
Not all design goals are compatible with each other. If you want
the b-lead out of the cockpit, then battery ammeters are in the real-hard
pile. There are many airplanes flying with alternator loadmeters
(Cessnas and misc) and many flying with alternator loadmeters (Pipers,
Beechcraft, etc). . . Is one "better" than the other? If so, does
"goodness" of the battery ammeter compel you to strive for a way to
implement it along with b-leads taken out of the cockpit? Keep in mind
that hall effect devices hit with high surge currents can take on a small
"set" in reading that appears as an offset from zero. Usually
limited to a percent or so of full scale but it bugs some folks
to see non-zero readings of any kind when stuff is shut off. So
running 200A starter current through a sensor which you'd like to
have .1 amp resolution and perhaps .1 amp accuracy over the range
of 0-60 amps is, perhaps, not a good idea either.
The automotive diagnostics philosophy is to install sensors and
taps for measuring system parameters and bringing those out to
a diagnostics connector. Using the same idea, we could install
loadmeter shunts, field circuit shunts, and voltage sense
taps off all busses, batteries, field terminals and perhaps
add some sensors for other data like alternator stator and
diode thermocouples, oil temp, thermocouples on all cylinder
heads, etc.
You would mount the connector so that it could be accessed
easily on the ground for maintenance diagnostics and perhaps
even used in the air for temporarily installed instrumentation.
This saves weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments
that never help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access
to such data for diagnosis when necessary. As you've noted,
it's easiest to install these features when the airplane is
under construction than later.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
I don't believe those blow torches had a mixture control.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Riley
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements
How did he do mixture?
At 06:19 PM 8/24/05, you wrote:
>
>
>Here's the extreme on labeling the throttle. Even the friction lock is
>labeled:
>http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Controls/F-100%20Throttle%20Wi
th%207lbs%20Junk%20Removed.jpg
>
>Off an F-100 and onto a Dragonfly :)
>
>Dave Morris
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
Safety wire on the carb's mixture lever. :) For now anyway. And don't
fly too high.
Dave
At 09:58 AM 8/25/2005, you wrote:
>
>How did he do mixture?
>
>At 06:19 PM 8/24/05, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Here's the extreme on labeling the throttle. Even the friction lock is
> >labeled:
> >http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Controls/F-100%20Throttle%20
> With%207lbs%20Junk%20Removed.jpg
> >
> >Off an F-100 and onto a Dragonfly :)
> >
> >Dave Morris
>
>
>--
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
Dave,
Points well taken.
I have to agree with you and Eric. I favor labeling every switch if
possible. However, if the same pilot is flying the airplane for years, he/she
will
know where the switches are, so I can understand if a custombuilder decides to
not label - although I believe he/she should. If the airplane is sold, the
builder should strive to label all switches before the sale.
On Dave's points, there are certain switches in a custom-built plane that are
difficult to label. If the builder installed one of the Infinity sticks and
has some things functioning through the stick, I'd say labeling those switches
would be difficult - and perhaps futile since your hand may be covering the
label. The shape of switches or use of the colored bat switch covers could
help with identification of function in the absence of labels.
I still believe switches should be labeled to the max extent possible. It
just makes sense.
And, even though labeled, the stand-on-your-head-to-see-them switches in
C-172s are maddening. Pilots who frequently fly a particular C-172 usually
actuate the switches by feel or by counting to the position, so the labels are
useless anyway.
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
Eric,
My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper
switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been
designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch
in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch
look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one
you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying
to fly the plane?
Dave Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Flap |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
>
>In a message dated 8/25/2005 9:50:15 AM Central Standard Time,
>bnn(at)nethere.com writes:
>
>1. Ideally I'd have a microprocessor that would take in water
>temperature and send a proportional signal to a servo that would control
>the radiator flap. Has anyone seen such a thing off the shelf? If not, any
>idea how hard it would be to implement?
>
>2. Use a automotive cooling fan sensor to drive a servo that
>opens/shuts the flap. I think these sensors open/close only, so the flap
>would either open and shut as needed. (I think the time constant on the
>system would probably be slow enough to make this work.)
>
> Does anyone have a better idea on how to implement this?
>
>How did the old Packards control their shutters?
This doesn't take a microprocessor. You need to identify an
actuator capable of moving the flapper valve. If the actuator
has a built-in, position feedback pot so much the better. Would
one of the Ray-Allen devices work?
Next, you need to electrically quantify the water temperature.
I'll suggest an LM135, 10mV/Degree_K device from National.
Pick an operating range for door operation. Pick a top operating
temperature and assume door will be fully open when this temperature
is reached. Pick a temperature some degrees below the control
point that is hopefully just above your normal cruise operating
temperature.
Set up op amp and power transistors to drive servo such that
door is fully open at max operating and just starts to crack
at some point just above normal cruise temps. I can develop
a schematic and bill of materials if you need it.
I proposed a similar system for the C-206/210 series aircraft
cowl flaps about 40 years ago. We brass-boarded it and everyone
agreed that it would be a slick accessory but installation costs
(about $200 in 1964 dollars, $1200 in today's dollars) was
too high for even a gold-plated option.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
>
>
>Oh, okay.. It seems like the implied goal is to not run the starting
>currents through the ammeter shunt because it will tend to slap an analog
>meter pretty hard when the starter is cycled. Didn't we discuss this a
>few years ago, and decide that it probably woudn't actually hurt the meter
>to bang the needle against the stop? If that's not so good, it seems like
>we could put in a little circuit which when enabled by the starter circuit
>would drop the voltage at being fed from the shunt to reduce abuse to the
>meter. In either case, the shunt can be in the main feed from the
>battery.
>
>The hall effect idea is better. Actually, a flashing light would be
>better still... Well... Wait another minute.. I have a thought. You say
>that diagnosing electrical problems should be reserved for after you are
>on the ground. I can't argue with that. However, I posit that on a new
>OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
>instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
>design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
>
> Your cart is way ahead of the horse. Decide first how a battery
> ammeter is "better" than any other form of ammeter . . . i.e. will
> ANY form of ammeter help you deal with a particular failure mode
> and how would your write a procedure to that explains what to do
> when presented with various kinds of "data" from the ammeter? Is
> this data even useful in flight? Would it be better to have a
> pre-planned,
> easily executed transition from plan-A to plan-B and simply leave
> all the systems management until later?
>
> Not all design goals are compatible with each other. If you want
> the b-lead out of the cockpit, then battery ammeters are in the real-hard
> pile. There are many airplanes flying with
> BATTERY AMMETERS
> (Cessnas and misc) and many flying with alternator loadmeters (Pipers,
> Beechcraft, etc). . . Is one "better" than the other? If so, does
> "goodness" of the battery ammeter compel you to strive for a way to
> implement it along with b-leads taken out of the cockpit? Keep in mind
> that hall effect devices hit with high surge currents can take on a small
> "set" in reading that appears as an offset from zero. Usually
> limited to a percent or so of full scale but it bugs some folks
> to see non-zero readings of any kind when stuff is shut off. So
> running 200A starter current through a sensor which you'd like to
> have .1 amp resolution and perhaps .1 amp accuracy over the range
> of 0-60 amps is, perhaps, not a good idea either.
>
> The automotive diagnostics philosophy is to install sensors and
> taps for measuring system parameters and bringing those out to
> a diagnostics connector. Using the same idea, we could install
> loadmeter shunts, field circuit shunts, and voltage sense
> taps off all busses, batteries, field terminals and perhaps
> add some sensors for other data like alternator stator and
> diode thermocouples, oil temp, thermocouples on all cylinder
> heads, etc.
>
> You would mount the connector so that it could be accessed
> easily on the ground for maintenance diagnostics and perhaps
> even used in the air for temporarily installed instrumentation.
> This saves weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around
> instruments
> that never help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access
> to such data for diagnosis when necessary. As you've noted,
> it's easiest to install these features when the airplane is
> under construction than later.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | trim relay deck trim speed control |
Mark,
Great idea for the speed controller. Do you have any photos of how you mounted
the reversing relays on the MP Jones speed controller kit? I've built several
of this kits. They are easy to assemble and best of all, cheap. Can you supply
part numbers for the relays and your dual trim pot??
Charlie Kuss
---- Mark R Steitle wrote:
>
>
> Lui,
> This reply may be too late for your benefit, but I will explain how I
> approached this problem in hopes that it will help others.
>
> I used two of the pwm light dimmer kits from mpja.com, p/n 4057 MD, and
> substituted four RatShack DPDT relays (two per board) for the reversing
> switches. With a little futzing, these relays will fit into the same
> holes in the board intended for the reversing switch. These are
> activated by the coolie hat switch. One board controls the aileron
> servo, the other controls the elevator servo.
>
> The last step is to remotely mount the potentiometer. This requires a
> 3-wire harness long enough to reach the panel, or wherever you choose to
> mount it. I used a higher quality "dual" pot rather than the ones
> supplied in the kit. This way, one knob controls the speed to both
> servos.
>
> To make things really kosher, I mounted both boards in a metal project
> box and then mounted the box under the pilot's seat. Works great!
>
> Mark Steitle
> Lancair ES (N208TX)
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >I have the Infinity Aeropsace Trim Relay Deck, see at
> >
> >http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Relay_Deck_Wiring_Schematic.jpg
> >
> >I am trying to install a Ray Allen Speed control for the pitch trim but
> have
> >a few ?? on the wiring.
> >
> >http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsSPD.pdf
> >
> >Not sure where to connect the red wire from the Speed control to the
> >Infinity Relay Deck. The Relay Deck only has a
> >
> >1. A port for Trim motor
> >2. B port for Trim motor
> >3. +12 v
> >4. Ground
> >
> >It doesn't have a provision for "blue wire" like shown on Diagram 2 of
> the
> >Ray Allen schematic. I guess it is so simple that I don't see it.
> >
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >Lui
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >
> >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
> < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
> < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
> < work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
> < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
> < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
> < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
> < happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
> < then slip back into abject poverty. >
> < >
> < This is known as "bad luck". >
> < -Lazarus Long- >
> <------------------------------------------------------>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
Stormy,
Will do. However, it will be next week.
Charlie
do not archieve
---- sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about the gear
hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more details.
>
> -Stormy
>
>
> >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the Rockwell hardness
> of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> Flap |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
Are we talking about a flap to control air flow or a valve to control water
flow?
If an air flap is what you want, why not do what Bingelis suggested in
"Firewall Forward" and use a $10 cowl flap actuator off a VW bug? If I
recall correctly, it expands and contracts about an inch or so, depending
on how much heat it is subjected to.
Dave Morris
(I can't believe I'm suggesting the lowest tech solution!)
At 12:09 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:
> Flap
>
>
> >
> >In a message dated 8/25/2005 9:50:15 AM Central Standard Time,
> >bnn(at)nethere.com writes:
> >
> >1. Ideally I'd have a microprocessor that would take in water
> >temperature and send a proportional signal to a servo that would control
> >the radiator flap. Has anyone seen such a thing off the shelf? If not, any
> >idea how hard it would be to implement?
> >
> >2. Use a automotive cooling fan sensor to drive a servo that
> >opens/shuts the flap. I think these sensors open/close only, so the flap
> >would either open and shut as needed. (I think the time constant on the
> >system would probably be slow enough to make this work.)
> >
> > Does anyone have a better idea on how to implement this?
> >
> >How did the old Packards control their shutters?
>
>
> This doesn't take a microprocessor. You need to identify an
> actuator capable of moving the flapper valve. If the actuator
> has a built-in, position feedback pot so much the better. Would
> one of the Ray-Allen devices work?
>
> Next, you need to electrically quantify the water temperature.
> I'll suggest an LM135, 10mV/Degree_K device from National.
> Pick an operating range for door operation. Pick a top operating
> temperature and assume door will be fully open when this temperature
> is reached. Pick a temperature some degrees below the control
> point that is hopefully just above your normal cruise operating
> temperature.
>
> Set up op amp and power transistors to drive servo such that
> door is fully open at max operating and just starts to crack
> at some point just above normal cruise temps. I can develop
> a schematic and bill of materials if you need it.
>
> I proposed a similar system for the C-206/210 series aircraft
> cowl flaps about 40 years ago. We brass-boarded it and everyone
> agreed that it would be a slick accessory but installation costs
> (about $200 in 1964 dollars, $1200 in today's dollars) was
> too high for even a gold-plated option.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Switch label requirements |
HTML_TEXT_AFTER_BODY(at)roxy.matronics.com, BODY:,
HTML(at)roxy.matronics.com, contains(at)roxy.matronics.com,
text(at)roxy.matronics.com, after(at)roxy.matronics.com,
BODY(at)roxy.matronics.com, close(at)roxy.matronics.com,
tag(at)roxy.matronics.com
Eric,
These are the morsels of information that custom builders need. If you or
Bob or ? have more of them, please don't hoard them.
I agree with virtually everything Ricardo said in the articles on
cockpit/panel design. He did a great job of putting into words what we've known
for a
long time. Simplifying the cockpit can make flying more enjoyable and safer.
Thanks for sharing the information with us.
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
But every time I want to make any comment on the subject I review Price's
articles and am re-impressed. I highly recommend getting the back issues
from Kitplanes (on line) if you have an interest in the subject. It's a real
keeper.
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7273-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7272-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7271-1.phtml
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Where is Shannon Knoepflein? |
Cheers,
The above-mentioned gentleman ran a message here about Whelen
strobe power supply wire sizes. I tried to email him with a question and 'no
address' came hurtling back.
Has anyone his present address, please?
Ferg Kyle
VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
> This doesn't take a microprocessor. You need to identify an
> actuator capable of moving the flapper valve. If the actuator
> has a built-in, position feedback pot so much the better. Would
> one of the Ray-Allen devices work?
>
> Next, you need to electrically quantify the water temperature.
> I'll suggest an LM135, 10mV/Degree_K device from National.
> Pick an operating range for door operation. Pick a top operating
> temperature and assume door will be fully open when this temperature
> is reached. Pick a temperature some degrees below the control
> point that is hopefully just above your normal cruise operating
> temperature.
>
> Set up op amp and power transistors to drive servo such that
> door is fully open at max operating and just starts to crack
> at some point just above normal cruise temps. I can develop
> a schematic and bill of materials if you need it.
>
> I proposed a similar system for the C-206/210 series aircraft
> cowl flaps about 40 years ago. We brass-boarded it and everyone
> agreed that it would be a slick accessory but installation costs
> (about $200 in 1964 dollars, $1200 in today's dollars) was
> too high for even a gold-plated option.
>
Bob, I'd be *very* interested in this. I'm planning on an
electric cowl flap, and automating this would be excellent.
Thanks!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand(at)crownequip.com> |
| Subject: | Where is Shannon Knoepflein? |
Shannon died when his Lancair crashed leaving Oshkosh last year.
Jeff Hildebrand
www.lancaires.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus
Kyle
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Where is Shannon Knoepflein?
Cheers,
The above-mentioned gentleman ran a message here about Whelen
strobe power supply wire sizes. I tried to email him with a question and 'no
address' came hurtling back.
Has anyone his present address, please?
Ferg Kyle
VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Where is Shannon Knoepflein? |
Sorry, to be the bearer or bad news, on his way back from a year ago's OSH,
he crashed his legacy and was killed.. Just a few miles south of Madison,
WI if I remember right :(...
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus
Kyle
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Where is Shannon Knoepflein?
Cheers,
The above-mentioned gentleman ran a message here about Whelen
strobe power supply wire sizes. I tried to email him with a question and 'no
address' came hurtling back.
Has anyone his present address, please?
Ferg Kyle
VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John D. Heath" <altoq(at)cebridge.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
Does anyone have a better idea on how to implement this?
This might not be THE BETTER IDEA but, Here are some related points of food
for thought.
Besides the VW Bug cooling thermostat, many European autos use the same type
of device in the air cleaner to control intake air temperature during cold
weather starting. Remember all these devices react to air temperature.
Some Radiator fan switches are multi-stage (VW-AUDI has 3 stage) and they
sense water temperature.
What is commonly called anti-freeze is in reality also anti-boil. A 50/50
mixture of anti-freeze elevates the boiling point to ~248 degrees
Fahrenheit. The radiator cap elevates the pressure as much as 15psi or more
on late model autos. The boiling point of the coolant raises 2 degrees per
pound of cap pressure. All of this is more or less common knowledge, right
off the back of the anti-freeze jug. One lesser known fact is that the
thermostat and its bypass combine to present a roughly calibrated
restriction to coolant flow that allows the water pump to pressurize the
block and heads to an even higher level. This eliminates steam pockets in
the head and insures coolant flow distribution. It would not be a good idea
to eliminate these features in search of THE BETTER IDEA.
Coolant flow might be better controlled if a thermostat that has a positive
bypass control valve were used.
I hope some of this helps,
John D.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
This is one location to find the Volkswagen Thermostat Control Flap.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-040-198-119-KIT&Clic
k=18774
Regards
Gerry Holland
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | trim relay deck trim speed control |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
Mark,
Great idea for the speed controller. Do you have any photos of how you mounted
the reversing relays on the MP Jones speed controller kit? I've built several
of this kits. They are easy to assemble and best of all, cheap. Can you supply
part numbers for the relays and your dual trim pot??
Charlie Kuss
Charlie,
The relays are Radio Shack p/n 275-249 @ $5.29 ea. You'll need four of them.
The trim pot is a dual 50k which I got from Mouser, p/n 313-2420-50k @ $2.35/ea,
one required. The relays are DPDT. They have six leads. Four of the leads
are grouped close together, the other two which activate the solenoid and are
at the far end. These two will hang off the board on one end, so I just soldered
a lead to each, ran it out of the box, and put a molex connector on the
end. These will be attached to the coolie hat switch.
One of the relays will require that these two pins be bent flat. I bent them down
flat, soldered two leads to them, and ran them out of the box and put a molex
connector on them also.
The neat part is that the four pins that are gouped together will fit right into
the holes intended for the reversing switch. See Attached pic.
You'll end up with 16 leads coming out of the project box. They will be for +14v,
gnd, trim pot, coolie hat, ailerlon servo, and elevator servo.
Hope this helps,
Mark S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Flap |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
> Flap
>
>Are we talking about a flap to control air flow or a valve to control water
>flow?
>
>If an air flap is what you want, why not do what Bingelis suggested in
>"Firewall Forward" and use a $10 cowl flap actuator off a VW bug? If I
>recall correctly, it expands and contracts about an inch or so, depending
>on how much heat it is subjected to.
>
>Dave Morris
>(I can't believe I'm suggesting the lowest tech solution!)
Dave, that's exactly the device that started the thought
processes on the 200 series Cessna cowl flap controls.
I owned a VW bug at the time and had to replace the
thermostatic controller for the air-inlet augmenter
ring so I was familiar with its function.
Our problem was getting temperatures, strokes and forces
to match our requirements . . . it was possible but not
practical due to very $high$ development costs and tooling
for production parts on a relatively low volume item (only
a couple thousand per year).
The electronic approach worked out for low development
costs and relative ease of calibration to the specific
airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ammeter shunt sizing . . . |
Comments/Questions: Bob, I tried to get the answer to this question from B&C
Specialties, but they are not responding. Can you tell me what the
difference is between the various Amp ratings is for 50mv shunts? Is it
just how much power each can handle, or are there resistance differences?
Why not just use a 100A shunt even though my alternator only puts out 55A?
Or did I just answer my own question: does a 100A shunt drop 50mv at 100A;
and a 50A shunt drops 50mv at 50A?
You got it. The industry standard for external shunt ammeter
movements is 50 millivolts full scale. Therefore, to achieve
any particular full scale calibation on one basic instrument,
you pick a shunt and scale plate for the same full scale value.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Flap |
| Subject: | Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
>
>
>
> > Set up op amp and power transistors to drive servo such that
> > door is fully open at max operating and just starts to crack
> > at some point just above normal cruise temps. I can develop
> > a schematic and bill of materials if you need it.
>
>ROFLOL. You think about electronics the way I think about structures.
>Unfortunately, though I understand what you said, it would take me a year
>to figure out what is so painfully obvious to you! I would therefore be
>ENTIRELY GRATEFUL if you would send me an estimate for what it would take
>to have you put together a schematic and BoM. Of course, if the
>installation's going to cost $1200 I might be somewhat less enthusiastic,
>but I'd still be interested in hearing about it. And who knows, if it works
>well enough I might interest a slew of other 2-stroke users as well.
I sat down last night and began to sift through the
box of applicable tinker-toys and craft a minimum
parts count, discrete component solution. By the time
I was half way through the exercise, I was stuck by
the notion that this was exactly the way I would
have done it 30 years ago . . . indeed, it was not
far off the mark for components and techniques
I suggested 40 years ago. By the time I'd considered
all the ramifications of failed sensors and other
failure mode effects analysis along with performance
issues that dealt with accuracy and error budgets
the task was getting pretty "messy" . . . I hadn't
even started to consider a reasonable DIY packaging
scheme.
There are any number of jellybean microcontrollers
that will do this job with 1/10th the parts while
offering logical and REPROGRAMMABLE performance
capabilities that are very difficult with discrete
components. I'm working a program on one of our
aircraft where an already complex system was
implemented in discretes to avoid software
certification issues. We have $millions$ tied up
in IR&D and now $millions$ are flowing out on
warranty and customer dissatisfaction issues while
folks who made the original decisions are turning
blue trying to band-aid the system into some
semblance of acceptable.
We're finally going to get a chance to redesign
the circuitry but were stuck with some gawd-awful
packaging. With that experience in mind, the
discrete approach to a 2-cycle, cooling air
controller came to a screeching halt as of 11:43
last night. This was NOT the best we know how to do.
Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
I have the development systems but just don't
have time to add this to a long list of higher
priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
a schematic, bill of materials and write the
software requirements but I'm going to need some
help to write and debug the software.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand(at)crownequip.com> |
| Subject: | dimming a Whelen LED post light |
I have a Whelen LED post light on the instrument panel of my Lancair (14V,
20ma, Part#01-0770844-00).
It is too bright for my application. I would like to dim it by about half.
Can I put a resistor in series with the power lead?
I have read old archives about current limited resistors, but I'm not sure
how to deal with a post light that you just connect 14 volts to. It must
have an internal current limiting resistor built into it, but I don't want
to disassemble it, I would just like to put a resistor in series.
Can someone tell me how to do this?
Thanks,
Jeff Hildebrand
Lancair ES C-GSPH
www.lancaires.com <http://www.lancaires.com/>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
> Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
> the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
> I have the development systems but just don't
> have time to add this to a long list of higher
> priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> software requirements but I'm going to need some
> help to write and debug the software.
>
> Bob . . .
Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
According to the data sheet, it has [a] "potentiometer built in
for actuator positioning (use your microcontroller to determine
and precisely control actuator positioning)"
I hope you find a volunteer! :-) I'd love to do it, but I
want to get my airplane flying this year. Really!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
Bob,
I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment necessary to
analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves
weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for diagnosis
when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the
ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on board,
so no weight or savings there.
I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while analysing an
airborne situation. So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I still
want to
see them.
So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best methods
to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a battery
ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to
monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus,
main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to know how
best to do it.
Stan Sutterfield
However, I posit that on a new
OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
Your cart is way ahead of the horse. Decide first how a battery
ammeter is "better" than any other form of ammeter . . . i.e. will
ANY form of ammeter help you deal with a particular failure mode
and how would your write a procedure to that explains what to do
when presented with various kinds of "data" from the ammeter? Is
this data even useful in flight? Would it be better to have a pre-planned,
easily executed transition from plan-A to plan-B and simply leave
all the systems management until later?
Not all design goals are compatible with each other. If you want
the b-lead out of the cockpit, then battery ammeters are in the real-hard
pile. There are many airplanes flying with alternator loadmeters
(Cessnas and misc) and many flying with alternator loadmeters (Pipers,
Beechcraft, etc). . . Is one "better" than the other? If so, does
"goodness" of the battery ammeter compel you to strive for a way to
implement it along with b-leads taken out of the cockpit? Keep in mind
that hall effect devices hit with high surge currents can take on a small
"set" in reading that appears as an offset from zero. Usually
limited to a percent or so of full scale but it bugs some folks
to see non-zero readings of any kind when stuff is shut off. So
running 200A starter current through a sensor which you'd like to
have .1 amp resolution and perhaps .1 amp accuracy over the range
of 0-60 amps is, perhaps, not a good idea either.
The automotive diagnostics philosophy is to install sensors and
taps for measuring system parameters and bringing those out to
a diagnostics connector. Using the same idea, we could install
loadmeter shunts, field circuit shunts, and voltage sense
taps off all busses, batteries, field terminals and perhaps
add some sensors for other data like alternator stator and
diode thermocouples, oil temp, thermocouples on all cylinder
heads, etc.
You would mount the connector so that it could be accessed
easily on the ground for maintenance diagnostics and perhaps
even used in the air for temporarily installed instrumentation.
This saves weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments
that never help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access
to such data for diagnosis when necessary. As you've noted,
it's easiest to install these features when the airplane is
under construction than later.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
The big picture, Fit Form Function. Reliability in aviation Rock on
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly, with
voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized that if
something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went on,
I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and taking
voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something like
that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the ground.
That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for the
need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
Dave Morris
At 02:04 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
>that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
>necessary to
>analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
>answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
>In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves
>weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
>help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
>diagnosis
>when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the
>ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
>connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on
>board,
>so no weight or savings there.
>I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while analysing an
>airborne situation. So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
>places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
>electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I
>still want to
>see them.
>So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
>need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
>methods
>to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
>We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
>alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
>battery
>ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
>I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to
>monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus,
>main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
>know how
>best to do it.
>Stan Sutterfield
>
>However, I posit that on a new
>OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
>instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
>design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
>
> Your cart is way ahead of the horse. Decide first how a battery
> ammeter is "better" than any other form of ammeter . . . i.e. will
> ANY form of ammeter help you deal with a particular failure mode
> and how would your write a procedure to that explains what to do
> when presented with various kinds of "data" from the ammeter? Is
> this data even useful in flight? Would it be better to have a
> pre-planned,
> easily executed transition from plan-A to plan-B and simply leave
> all the systems management until later?
>
> Not all design goals are compatible with each other. If you want
> the b-lead out of the cockpit, then battery ammeters are in the real-hard
> pile. There are many airplanes flying with alternator loadmeters
> (Cessnas and misc) and many flying with alternator loadmeters (Pipers,
> Beechcraft, etc). . . Is one "better" than the other? If so, does
> "goodness" of the battery ammeter compel you to strive for a way to
> implement it along with b-leads taken out of the cockpit? Keep in mind
> that hall effect devices hit with high surge currents can take on a small
> "set" in reading that appears as an offset from zero. Usually
> limited to a percent or so of full scale but it bugs some folks
> to see non-zero readings of any kind when stuff is shut off. So
> running 200A starter current through a sensor which you'd like to
> have .1 amp resolution and perhaps .1 amp accuracy over the range
> of 0-60 amps is, perhaps, not a good idea either.
>
> The automotive diagnostics philosophy is to install sensors and
> taps for measuring system parameters and bringing those out to
> a diagnostics connector. Using the same idea, we could install
> loadmeter shunts, field circuit shunts, and voltage sense
> taps off all busses, batteries, field terminals and perhaps
> add some sensors for other data like alternator stator and
> diode thermocouples, oil temp, thermocouples on all cylinder
> heads, etc.
>
> You would mount the connector so that it could be accessed
> easily on the ground for maintenance diagnostics and perhaps
> even used in the air for temporarily installed instrumentation.
> This saves weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around
> instruments
> that never help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access
> to such data for diagnosis when necessary. As you've noted,
> it's easiest to install these features when the airplane is
> under construction than later.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "jmtipton" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dimming a Whelen LED post light |
Yes: Cut the wire and place another resister in series
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand(at)crownequip.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: dimming a Whelen LED post light
>
>
> I have a Whelen LED post light on the instrument panel of my Lancair (14V,
> 20ma, Part#01-0770844-00).
>
>
> It is too bright for my application. I would like to dim it by about
> half.
> Can I put a resistor in series with the power lead?
>
>
> I have read old archives about current limited resistors, but I'm not sure
> how to deal with a post light that you just connect 14 volts to. It must
> have an internal current limiting resistor built into it, but I don't want
> to disassemble it, I would just like to put a resistor in series.
>
>
> Can someone tell me how to do this?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Jeff Hildebrand
> Lancair ES C-GSPH
> www.lancaires.com <http://www.lancaires.com/>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Flap |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
>
>At 11:52 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>
>...
>
> >Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
> >
> > http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
>
>I'm thinking of something much, much, smaller; possibly even an RC servo. I
>think my loads are going to be very low.
See if one of the Ray-Allen (Mac) servos would work. These have
feedback potentiometers and limit switches built in. This will
be necessary for proper control of the air-door position. You'll
want to design your linkage between door and actuator such that
the door is exactly close when one limit switch operates and
fully open when the opposite switch actuates. If you use the
actuator cited, then you'll need to add an external potentiometer . . .
not difficult but it drives up parts count in the wrong places.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Flap |
| Subject: | Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
>
>At 07:18 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>
>...
>
> > priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> > a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> > software requirements but I'm going to need some
> > help to write and debug the software.
>
>I might be able to help with the software, or get it done with the help of
>some friends. Thanks again for taking an interest. It looks like some of
>the other water-cooled folks might be interested as well.
I've hired a software guy. I hoisted the project at dinner
tonight and my father-in-law (recently retired from firm
that does big RAID arrays) saluted it. We'll order some development
tools tomorrow to be permanently assigned to his efforts.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Flap |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
>
>
> > Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
> > the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
> > I have the development systems but just don't
> > have time to add this to a long list of higher
> > priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> > a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> > software requirements but I'm going to need some
> > help to write and debug the software.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
>
> http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
>
>According to the data sheet, it has [a] "potentiometer built in
>for actuator positioning (use your microcontroller to determine
>and precisely control actuator positioning)"
>
>I hope you find a volunteer! :-) I'd love to do it, but I
>want to get my airplane flying this year. Really!
If I read the data sheet correctly, there are NONE potentiometers . .
and we WILL need one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
>
>I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly, with
>voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
>
>Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized that if
>something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went on,
>I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
>diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and taking
>voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
>there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something like
>that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the ground.
Absolutely . . .
>That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for the
>need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
>annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
>
>Dave Morris
>
>At 02:04 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing an
> >airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gianni Zuliani" <gz(at)comgz.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
Maybe I'm too naive on the subject, but I thought that a battery loadmeter
would tell me:
1. at the beginning of the flight, if my battery is being charged properly
after engine starting depletion;
2. in case of alternator's failure in flight, how much electrical endurance
I am left, (provided that my battery was fully charged: see point 1), just
easily calculating X Amp*h / L Amp, where X is my battery's capacity and L
is the reading of my ammeter.
Where am I wrong, Bob?
Gianni Zuliani
Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzRG
http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: panel design, was SNIMTA_SPAM |
Dave:
I definitely agree. In my plane the switches are going to be in
groups of 3 with a gap (mising switch) between the groups. You have to
be able to find the right switch by feel. I've seriously considered
alternating toggle switches with rockers, but it would look kind of
strange. Many years ago I saw an article on cockpit design in Kitplanes
that made this same point. I just tried to dig up my copy of that
issue, but it seems to have been lost in the sands of time.
Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:
>Eric,
>
>My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under
>the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down
>to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III Flap wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>At 11:52 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>...
>>
>>
>>
>>>Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
>>>
>>> http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
>>>
>>>
>>I'm thinking of something much, much, smaller; possibly even an RC servo. I
>>think my loads are going to be very low.
>>
>>
>
> See if one of the Ray-Allen (Mac) servos would work. These have
> feedback potentiometers and limit switches built in. This will
> be necessary for proper control of the air-door position. You'll
> want to design your linkage between door and actuator such that
> the door is exactly close when one limit switch operates and
> fully open when the opposite switch actuates. If you use the
> actuator cited, then you'll need to add an external potentiometer . . .
> not difficult but it drives up parts count in the wrong places.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Here's a manual electric cowl flap on a friend's RV-6. He's making
between 150-160 hp with his particular setup & needed an electric (wing)
flap motor for enough strength to retract the flap. Details on the web
site. Very nice guy & willing to share his experiences if you need more
info. Link at the bottom of the web page.
http://www.weslick.com/cooling.htm
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
> You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
> do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Maybe I'm too naive on the subject, but I thought that a battery loadmeter
>would tell me:
>1. at the beginning of the flight, if my battery is being charged properly
>after engine starting depletion;
IF you have a well-maintained battery and IF your bus voltage is
where it belongs, then your battery WILL be properly charged.
>2. in case of alternator's failure in flight, how much electrical endurance
>I am left, (provided that my battery was fully charged: see point 1), just
>easily calculating X Amp*h / L Amp, where X is my battery's capacity and L
>is the reading of my ammeter.
Somewhat correct. But keep in mind that useful capacity is a function
of load. Batteries are generally RATED at a 20 hour discharge rate.
I'll call your attention to the data sheet for an exemplar 17 a.h.
battery at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Panasonic/lc-rd1217p.pdf
Note in chart of characteristics on left the available output
energy at different discharge rates. Note that it meets nameplate
ratings at the 20 hour rate (.85A). If your alternator-out discharge
rates are something like 4A, you can expect to get somewhere between
10 and 13 a.h. of output . . . probably about 12 for an endurance
of 3 hours and then only if the battery's capacity is a KNOWN
value.
I've suggested many times that it is better to have a KNOWN plan-B
load which produces a KNOWN endurance assuming that your battery
is properly maintained. So, when the low voltage light comes on,
you position a couple of switches and truck on KNOWING that your
battery only endurance exceeds some predicted and planned value.
If you've conducted such advance planning, then you don't need
a battery ammeter or any other real-time instrument to fuss and
fret over wondering how much stuff you can run or can't run
. . . or wonder what shape that battery is in because you haven't
touched it in a couple of years.
>Where am I wrong, Bob?
The point I'm trying to illustrate is that displaying real-time
electrical system data for the purpose of managing a failure
event ADDS to workload and may not materially alter the outcome
of the flight. Working from the perspective of KNOWING what
energy is on board and parceling it out in accordance with
a PLAN is the best way to keep the failure from adding to
workload and ASSURE the desired outcome.
Review chapter 17 in the 'Connection . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: panel design |
> Many years ago I saw an article on cockpit design in Kitplanes
>that made this same point. I just tried to dig up my copy of that
>issue, but it seems to have been lost in the sands of time.
Dear Sarge--
From an earlier post--
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7273-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7272-1.phtml
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7271-1.phtml
But there is a key idea on the "switches at your knees"--and I suggest
Googling any cockpit photos of recent vintage commercial liners to see
these:
1) Your knees will be rammed into them in an accident if they are where
Cessna put them.
2) The "best practice" seem to be to put all switches overhead; on the
center console if any; on the sides if possible; and on a brow at the the
top of the panel which also serves as a sunshield. The last is my favorite.
For OBAM small airplane use, this is probably the best place for switches
and annunciators.
Whatever you do---Put NO switches on the lower panel in front of your knees.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid."
-John Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg@itmack" <greg(at)itmack.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
Flap
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
> > > the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
> > > I have the development systems but just don't
> > > have time to add this to a long list of higher
> > > priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> > > a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> > > software requirements but I'm going to need some
> > > help to write and debug the software.
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> >Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
> >
> > http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
> >
> >According to the data sheet, it has [a] "potentiometer built in
> >for actuator positioning (use your microcontroller to determine
> >and precisely control actuator positioning)"
> >
> >I hope you find a volunteer! :-) I'd love to do it, but I
> >want to get my airplane flying this year. Really!
>
> If I read the data sheet correctly, there are NONE potentiometers . .
> and we WILL need one.
>
> Bob . . .
On the spec sheet it has it as an option. A microswitch is included though.
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gilles Tatry <gilles.tatry(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
As liners pilots, we:
- Turn the rotating beacon on before starting engines, off after engine shutdown,
- Turn the taxi lights on when the aircraft is about to move, off when the aircraft
is stopped,
- Turn both strobe lights and take-off lights on when entering the active runway,
off when leaving the runway.
This is worldwide common use, night and day conditions.
Regards,
Gilles
> Message du 23/08/05 20:07
> De : "Craig P. Steffen"
> A : aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Copie =C3=A0 :
> Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
>
>
> >
> > I teach pilots to never turn on the strobes until taking the active runway
> > for takeoff - especially in low light or night conditions.
> > Stan Sutterfield
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> > I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before engine
> > start.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Matt-
>
> The relevant FAR (in part):
>
> ************
>
> FAR 91.209 Aircraft lights.
>
> No person may:
> ...
> (b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
> system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
> anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
> determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
> interest of safety to turn the lights off.
>
> ************
>
> It just occured to me to wonder; when they say "Operate an aircraft",
> do they mean in the air, or at all?
>
> I'm pretty sure that airliners always have their rotating lights
> running whenever their engines are on.
>
> Craig Steffen
>
> --
> craig(at)craigsteffen.net
> public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
> current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
> career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
>
>
> --
> Ce message ne contient pas de virus connu.
> neoDomaine Postmaster - http://www.neodomaine.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Currently building a Searey, but must admit the mail is interesting enough to
cut into garage time.
Printing the labels on a computer is a great idea, and have l already started
labeling wires with labels, followed by clear heat shrink, another wonderful
idea. For the panel, what is the best clear coat? A polyurethane in semi --
gloss or a clear acrylic?
Not much metal in the center wing for the ELT antenna. Is the 1 meter
separation from the COM a regulation or a suggestion? Is there a regulation against
putting the ELT in side the fiberglass tail section? IT would be "upside
down" but still vertically oriented, with a wire/copper ribbon groundplane.
Finally, my background is a bit mixed. I was a ham, and a builder back when
you used tubes, or the transistors came one at a time. Even took some
electronic design course many years ago in engineering. (I was an ME/BioMed)
I
wanted to make a small timing circuit for a gear warning application. Could
someone recommend a book/source for a begginer/novice/has-been to catch up?
Jim Timoney
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
Hi Jim
For timing circuitry, Radio Shack has a little paper back booklet on 555
timers for a couple of dollars that I'd recommend to anyone interested.
That is by far the most versatile, popular, chip out there I believe.
The chips are well under $1. in most places.
Ken
>snip
>
> I
>wanted to make a small timing circuit for a gear warning application. Could
>someone recommend a book/source for a begginer/novice/has-been to catch up?
>
>Jim Timoney
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Old Analog types Tubes, etc |
Hi Jim,
Being an old analog type myself (and Ham radio operator), I recently made
the somewhat painful transition (at least the beginning) from tubes to
microchips. I've learned to program the Microchip PIC microcontroller
(actually a small computer +) and have produced a EFI Fuel Monitoring system
programmed using Pascal (higher order (almost English) programming
language). It took me about 1 1/2 years to learn this new stuff and I
certainly have only broken the ice. However, the digital approach gives you
so much capability and flexibility in a system design that I think it was
worth learning.
There are hundreds (thousands?) of good books out there, but you have to
decide what area you are interested in and how much time/effort you want to
invest. For example the timing circuit you mention could be easily designed
using the 555 timer chip (amazingly useful device) or you could approach it
(overkill) using a microchip (learning to program it and design with it).
To many other factors to mention. The problem I found (since everything was
interesting) was trying to decide what I wanted invest in. I decided that
investing in the knowledge to design and make neat things for my
experimental was the focal point.
Here are a couple of photos that shows one of my projects both the old
analog design and the new digital design
I can only suggest that you surf the internet looking for projects that may
interest you and explore from there. A good basic? book that I used (and
still reference) is "The Art of Electronics" by Hayes & Howard. You might
even be able to find it in a good local book store and can certainly get it
on line.
Good luck
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <JTORTHO(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: (no subject)
>
> Currently building a Searey, but must admit the mail is interesting enough
> to
> cut into garage time.
>
> Printing the labels on a computer is a great idea, and have l already
> started
> labeling wires with labels, followed by clear heat shrink, another
> wonderful
> idea. For the panel, what is the best clear coat? A polyurethane in
> semi --
> gloss or a clear acrylic?
>
> Not much metal in the center wing for the ELT antenna. Is the 1 meter
> separation from the COM a regulation or a suggestion? Is there a
> regulation against
> putting the ELT in side the fiberglass tail section? IT would be "upside
> down" but still vertically oriented, with a wire/copper ribbon
> groundplane.
>
> Finally, my background is a bit mixed. I was a ham, and a builder back
> when
> you used tubes, or the transistors came one at a time. Even took some
> electronic design course many years ago in engineering. (I was an
> ME/BioMed) I
> wanted to make a small timing circuit for a gear warning application.
> Could
> someone recommend a book/source for a begginer/novice/has-been to catch
> up?
>
> Jim Timoney
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginner circuits |
The little "notebooks" they have at Radio Shack are a tremendous source of
schematics. I don't remember if Forrest Mims still authors all of them,
but I have an old yellow "Engineer's Notebook" he wrote decades ago, and
believe it or not, most of the schematics are still the state of the art
for this kind of simple stuff. There's one specifically on 555 timer
circuits. Go to your local Radio Shack and see if they have them. If your
circuit is generic enough and you don't want to reinvent the wheel, look at
some of the stuff QKits.com has.
Dave Morris
At 08:55 AM 8/28/2005, you wrote:
>
> I
>wanted to make a small timing circuit for a gear warning application. Could
>someone recommend a book/source for a begginer/novice/has-been to catch up?
>
>Jim Timoney
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginner circuits |
Goto
http://www.abebooks.com/?cm_ven=ggl&cm_cat=us-search&cm_pla=usedbooks&cm_ite=used%20books&afsrc=1
and search on Author: Floyd and Title: Electronics Fundamentals
You'll see a variety of listings for these Merrill publications edited
by T. L. Floyd. 6th edition is current for over $100. ANY prior edition
is worth the $ and you can get 2-4th editions for well under $10.
These are well illustrated, well organized texts for anyone interested
in starting a new discipline or honing an old one. I keep copies around
to hand out to budding experimenters.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Electrical System Diagnostics |
A follow-up on an earlier posting. I wrote:
>Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
>as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
>root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
>available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
I've suggested that what ever electrical instrumentation
is installed on the panel, the number and kind of measurements
displayed will be far short of what's necessary to do a full-up
diagnostics evaluation of the electrical system.
I've further suggested that INDICATORS displaying present value
of any parameter are poor warning devices.
In the automotive world, one can plug diagnostic tools into
a handy connector and the vehicle spills its guts. Let's
consider how something similar might be implemented on an
OBAM aircraft.
Readers will recall many times that folks have posted calls
for assistance diagnosing an electrical system problem here
on the list. More often than not, remote assistance for
deducing the problem requires DATA . . . voltage and/or
current measurements at various points in the system give
clues for a divide-and-conquer approach to isolating the
problem.
The task ALWAYS involves putting your multi-meter probes
on various points, usually with the engine running. There
are few machines more difficult to troubleshoot than an
airplane.
What's a mother to do? Take a peek at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Electrical_System_Diagnostics.pdf
Here's an approach to adding a diagnostics connector to
the airplane during construction. In this case, I've
illustrated a couple dozen permanently installed test
leads brought out to a 37-pin D-sub connector. A jack
panel similar to the one shown on the last page can be
plugged into the test connector. One can sit in the right
(in flight if needs be) and make voltage measurements
in strategic spots to aid in isolating root cause of
the problem. With this type of system installed, I can
deduce root cause of about any misbehavior down to a
few connections, wires, and line-replaceable accessories.
The example shown only speaks to electrical system. One
might wish to extend test points in other systems out
to the same connector.
This illustrates my assertion that display of any small
number of electrical system parameters on the panel will
almost never be adequate for detailed diagnosis of a
problem. Further, if real time indicators are also poor
warning devices, then I'll suggest that carefully crafted,
active notification of failures will guide you to implementation
of alternative operating procedures. A few chunks of 22AWG
wire and a D-sub connector will permit detailed access to
the system under conditions better suited to diagnosis and
repair.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Question RE: Garmin SL40 COM |
On the Garmin SL40 COM radio, there is no means of flip-flopping the
frequencies via: a yoke-mounted switch.
Assuming that the radio would be used on an Ultralight or Experimental
aircraft, is there any reason why this radio could not be field-modified to
provide this functionality?
Does anyone know how to do it?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question RE: Garmin SL40 COM |
Just read this and thought how apropos...Mike did it!
http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/forsale/index.htm
Bret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question RE: Garmin SL40 COM
>
> On the Garmin SL40 COM radio, there is no means of flip-flopping the
> frequencies via: a yoke-mounted switch.
>
> Assuming that the radio would be used on an Ultralight or Experimental
> aircraft, is there any reason why this radio could not be field-modified
to
> provide this functionality?
>
> Does anyone know how to do it?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Question RE: Garmin SL40 COM |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Bill -
Back when we were going to install an SL-40, it was my understanding that
you can use a remote flip=flop switch. Have you talked with the Garmin AT
folks about it?
John
>
>
> On the Garmin SL40 COM radio, there is no means of flip-flopping the
> frequencies via: a yoke-mounted switch.
________________________________________________________________________________
Received-SPF: softfail (mta11: domain of transitioning trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt does
not designate 85.138.31.102 as permitted sender) receiver=mta11; client_ip=85.138.31.102;
envelope-from=trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt;
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: recharge/jump start receptacle
> If you want to install maintainers (largely unnecessary on RG
> >batteries)
> then a small, 3 pin connector for ground, bat 1, bat 2 with
> relatively small wires tied to fuses on each battery's hot
> battery bus is the way to support the batteries while hangared.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Does this mean that it is possible (and desirable) to connect the same
maintainer (battery "tender") to both batteries at the same time?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>To:
>Subject: Re: recharge/jump start receptacle
>
>
> > If you want to install maintainers (largely unnecessary on RG
> > >batteries)
> > then a small, 3 pin connector for ground, bat 1, bat 2 with
> > relatively small wires tied to fuses on each battery's hot
> > battery bus is the way to support the batteries while hangared.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>Does this mean that it is possible (and desirable) to connect the same
>maintainer (battery "tender") to both batteries at the same time?
It can be done. I have several instrumentation batteries being
"tended" at any one time. This is done with two tenders . . . one
in the electronics shop, the other out in the mess-shop. There
are 2 to 4 batteries on any one tender at a time.
I have batteries that might set for a year or more between useage.
It seems unlikely that a airplane flown more that 4 times a year will
will get much benefit from battery tending while parked.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Question RE: Garmin SL40 COM |
According to Garmin: "No, there are no remote controls available for the SL
40 Comm Radio." The install manual for the SL40 doesn't show any means for a
remote flip-flop, either.
However, the SL30 NAV/COM does offer remote flip-flop...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question RE: Garmin SL40 COM
Bill -
Back when we were going to install an SL-40, it was my understanding that
you can use a remote flip=flop switch. Have you talked with the Garmin AT
folks about it?
John
>
>
> On the Garmin SL40 COM radio, there is no means of flip-flopping the
> frequencies via: a yoke-mounted switch.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Diagnostics |
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Okay, I'll take the other side on this one.. Just to be a trouble maker. :)
>
>We, as builders, should learn the fundamentals of wiring things. That's
>it. Buy a bunch of wire, connectors, switches, various strain reliefs,
>solder, shrink tube, labels, etc. Practice and learn. Don't start
>installing anything electrical into the airplane until we can be confident
>that we won't put a cruddy crimp or a cold solder joint in the airplane.
>It takes discipline. Don't use hardware store switches. If we select
>'good' quality stuff for the airplane, and install it together with robust
>electrical connections and appropriate strain relief, the need for
>diagnostics drops so drastically that it may be a non issue. How many
>cars go to the junkyard with diagnostic plugs that have never been used?
>
>I'll suggest that if you do a good enough job installing the extra
>diagnostic stuff so that it has a chance of being useful, the rest of the
>electro-whizzies (similarly installed) won't likely need any diagnostics
>during their useful life.
Yup. You understand this very well my friend. It's like buying
insurance. The reason you can buy insurance for rare events at
relatively low prices is due to low risk of ever having to
invoke the policy.
Of course, for the few that DO have problems, the $time$ required
to run down a solution often drives a hindsight wish that the
diagnostic tools had been installed.
I wrestle with this all the time in the certified world. I can't
put breakout boxes into a system and fly it for the purposes of
gathering diagnostic data without putting an experimental ticket
on the airplane and flying it with exp-test pilots. Once you
add the x-ticket notation to the logs of the airplane, there
is perception of reduced value of the airplane. At the same time,
you can have a customer who just bought your whippy new airplane
who rightfully wishes that the broke system would work. So, between
the marketing folks and customers who say "fix it" and the
managers and regulators who have a dozen reasons why you can't
fix it, it's a real Catch 22.
For the OBAM lightplane, the trade-offs seem to be as follows:
(1) What is the cost of installation/ownership of permanently
mounted diagnostic displays which have been elevated to hallowed
if not essential status on the panel?
(2) Can test wires/connector be installed for a comparable expenditure
of $time$? If equal to or less, then there's immediate positive
value for going diagnostic connectors as opposed to permanently
mounted instruments of limited usefulness. Further, it opens some
panel space for other uses.
(3) If there is a premium in $time$ to install the diagnostic
connector, then the DIFFERENCE between (1) and (2) is the
insurance premium you pay hoping that you'll never have to
invoke the policy . . . but you'll probably be glad you bought
the policy the first time you need it. I only get to work on
customer aircraft issues after the customer's mechanics have
exhausted their bag of tricks. Then we send a company man out
to look at it. The problem is 2-4 months old by the time I get
involved. Then I want to do these $high$ investigative experiments
to gather data. I don't think I've touched a single problem over
the past 10 years that blew away less than $100,000 and some have
cost $millions$.
As you've correctly noted, it's a matter of perceptions of risk
and return on investment benefit for having easy, real-time access
to the ship's nervous system.
>As a further and related suggestion... When you are basically done with
>your electrical system, burn all of the schematics of the system and
>datasheets from the components onto a CDROM, and stash that in your
>chances of it having a systems failure at home are somewhat low. Having
>the exact part number (or year, make, and model of the donor car) for the
>crapped-out part could be extremely useful. Lots of FBO's have PC's with
>CDROM drives. Make sure the CDROM has a copy of Adobe reader and any
>other necessary software required to view the docs.
ABSOLUTELY! At every seminar, I point out that the majority
of aircraft sold have little or no documentation as to what parts
were installed or how they were wired. Accurate documentation
goes a long way toward inducing a buyer to give you the asking
price for the airplane. The same data is INSURANCE for $time$ it
takes for YOU to repair your project 2-10 years from now.
Diagnostics connectors and service data are investments that
have some prospect for pay-out in the future . . . i.e. features
that reduce workload when the snoozing dogs arise to make your
life more of a challenge than you'd like. It's part and parcel
of lots of choices we have to make in life.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
8/29/2005
Hello Jim Timoney, some ELT related comments:
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: JTORTHO(at)aol.com
<<....skip....Not much metal in the center wing for the ELT antenna. Is the
1 meter
separation from the COM a regulation or a suggestion?....skip....>>
1) No such regulation, but I found out that transmitting on my number one
VHF comm radio would trigger the ELT when the antennas were too close (both
inside my fuselage). I moved the ELT antenna a bit and changed its
orientation to solve the problem.
<<.....skip....Is there a regulation against putting the ELT in side the
fiberglass tail section?....skip....>>
2) No such regulation. Internal antennas are great inside fiberglass
structures.
<<.....skip..... IT would be "upside down" but still vertically oriented,
with a wire/copper ribbon groundplane.....skip....>>
3) One of my friends commented that I had my ELT antenna installed with
improper orientation. I said "Fine, tell me just exactly what attitude my
fuselage will be in when I am finished crashing and I will reinstall my
antenna accordingly." He smiled and got the point.
OC
PS: Put the ELT in because you have to. Carry a personal locator beacon
because you want to. http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
<<........skip........Your knees will be rammed into them in an accident if
they are where
Cessna put them.....skip.....Whatever you do---Put NO switches on the lower
panel in front of your knees. Regards,Eric M. Jones>>
8/29/2005
But Eric, The bottom of my panel is where the bottom of my panel is.
It was not extended in any fashion for a row of switches. I guess that I
could have cut maybe an inch or so off the bottom of the panel in that area,
but certainly not enough to significantly affect knee clearance in an
accident.
Maybe I'll consider some padding along the bottom edge of the panel in that
area. Thanks for the tip.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: panel design |
<<........skip........Your knees will be rammed into them in an accident if
they are where Cessna put them.....skip.....Whatever you do---Put NO
switches on the lower
panel in front of your knees. Regards, Eric M. Jones>>
>But Eric, The bottom of my panel is where the bottom of my panel is.
>It was not extended in any fashion for a row of switches. I guess that I
>could have cut maybe an inch or so off the bottom of the panel in that
>area,
>but certainly not enough to significantly affect knee clearance in an
>accident.
>Maybe I'll consider some padding along the bottom edge of the panel in that
>area. Thanks for the tip.
OC,
Years ago A-town changed all sort of hard surfaces and protrusions to
"safety conscious" features. I didn't mean to imply that one should cut the
bottom off the panel, but no switches and some padding seems like a good
plan. Padding the bottom edge of the panel could save your legs in a crash.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock.
Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham....
Got to eat 'em with a spoon. Raw onions
and cornbread; nothing else...."
--Will Rogers
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 08/29/05 |
| From: | ldodgesr(at)mmm.com |
14, 2004) at 08/30/2005 07:52:07 AM
ELT antenna location
I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic canopy,
it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
Thanks,
L Dodge - finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Crate" <john.crate(at)encode.com> |
| Subject: | Z-11 (Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System) |
Hi Bob
Wiring a RV6A as per your Figure Z-11. It shows a 16 AWG wire supplying power
to the Main Battery Bus. The 16 AWG wire is suppose to be kept to a length of
six inches or less. My wire run is approximately 5 feet, thus I plan on using
14 AWG.
a.. Is this OK?
b.. Should I add a circuit breaker to this circuit and if so, will a 10A suffice?
Thanks in advance.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: recharge/jump start recepticle |
| From: | "Hansen, Ronald" <RH122050(at)ncr.com> |
FWIW, I installed a standard 12V receptacle between the seats on my
Zenair 601 that's powered by my main bus through a guarded 3-position
switch in the guard-closed position. When you flip the guard up and
move the switch up one notch, the bus is disconnected and the receptacle
is wired to battery one through a 10A fuse. Flip it up again and it's
wired to battery two through the same fuse. I bought a 12V receptacle
adapter for my battery tender and use it to keep the batteries charged
during construction. It could also be used with a solar charger on the
ramp. It's not good for jump-starting, but it's sure convenient for
topping things off now. The switch is one of the standard ones Bob uses
that B a 2-10 if I recall. The 12V receptacle is a robust one
from a marine supply store and comes with a dust cover and fast-on tabs
in the back.
Initially I tried to figure out how to have the option of charging both
batteries at once, but couldn't figure out how to do that without tieing
the batteries together (not good for flight ops) or using diodes in the
charging circuit which drop the voltage too much. I did learn that my
battery tender with all it's microprocessor wisdom does not put out
enough current initially to pull a small relay closed. All that fun
made the simple version I ended up with seem just fine.
Ron Hansen=09
Los Angeles
(snip)
>If not, is there any standard connector >configuration for battery
maintenance ?? Or what would >a good choice be ?? Battery maintainers
are typically accurately controlled chargers of 2A or less output. Any
connector you might like to use will be fine. Protect the wiring from
maintainer jack to battery bus with a 3A fuse. Here's a good connector
you can find at Radio Shack.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/274-010.jpg and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/274-013.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gilles Tatry" <gilles.tatry(at)wanadoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Transponder 'air switch' |
As liners pilots, we:
- Turn the rotating beacon on before starting engines, off after engine
shutdown,
- Turn the taxi lights on when the aircraft is about to move, off when the
aircraft is stopped,
- Turn both strobe lights and take-off lights on when entering the active
runway, off when leaving the runway.
This is worldwide common practice, night and day conditions.
Regards,
Gilles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
>
> Yes, I would agree. The two questions are what is "safe" and what is
> "operate". On a lighter note, which pilot-in-command.
>
> I think everyone would agree that making oneself as visible to others
> (be it airplane, truck, worker, or ground crew) as possible is
> important. However, at larger airports other airplanes have to operate
> safely at the same time. Therefore, a bright white three position
> double flash strobe being turned off during taxi operations may be
> safer. This seems to be the position at many airlines today. I
> remember a night while taxing for takeoff at Boston's Logan Airport and
> their was a Cirrus taxing for takeoff with the type of strobes mentioned
> above going full tilt. Their were many airplanes taxing in a long line
> this night. The lights were so bright and distracting many airplanes
> maintained a much larger distance from that airplane than normal which
> caused a string-out of the taxi line. One other byproduct were the many
> humorous comments over the radio. The main point is you could see him
> but you couldn't see anyone else....
>
> Yes we run the rotating beacons when ever an engine is running or
> external system (i.e. flaps, slats, spoilers, ect.) is being operated.
>
> Mike Larkin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
> P. Steffen
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder 'air switch'
>
>
>
>>
>> I teach pilots to never turn on the strobes until taking the active
> runway
>> for takeoff - especially in low light or night conditions.
>> Stan Sutterfield
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 8/23/2005 3:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>> I like strobes flashing on the ground.. Maybe (especially?) before
> engine
>> start.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Matt-
>
> The relevant FAR (in part):
>
> ************
>
> FAR 91.209 Aircraft lights.
>
> No person may:
> ...
> (b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
> system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
> anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
> determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
> interest of safety to turn the lights off.
>
> ************
>
> It just occured to me to wonder; when they say "Operate an aircraft",
> do they mean in the air, or at all?
>
> I'm pretty sure that airliners always have their rotating lights
> running whenever their engines are on.
>
> Craig Steffen
>
> --
> craig(at)craigsteffen.net
> public key available at http://www.craigsteffen.net/GPG/
> current goal: use a CueCat scanner to inventory my books
> career goal: be the first Vorlon Time Lord
>
>
> --
> 8/22/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming Coax Cable Length |
I am installing coax for the NAV and COM antennas. I understand that the length
of the cables should be trimmed to some multiple of 1/2 or full wave length
in the mid frequency range for each unit in order to maximize the performance.
It would seem that the length of the antenna elements would be a part of the overall
length in the computation.
The lengths that I have are: COM wave length @ 87.93 inches
NAV wave length @ 99.23 inches
So If I have a NAV Coax cable length of 279.25 inches would I trim off 31.19 inches
or 31.19 + 22" for the length of an antenna element?
So as to yield a lead length of 2 1/2 wave lengths.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming Coax Cable Length |
The coax cable has nothing to do with the length. The length only matters
in that the signal is weakened by a longer coax lead. The antenna element
is the important length. It is information readily available in the
aeroelectric manual that Bob sells. I would read it to you but mine is in
my hangar at the moment and I am home.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up Flying 60 Hours
----- Original Message -----
From: <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trimming Coax Cable Length
>
> I am installing coax for the NAV and COM antennas. I understand that the
> length of the cables should be trimmed to some multiple of 1/2 or full
> wave length in the mid frequency range for each unit in order to maximize
> the performance.
>
> It would seem that the length of the antenna elements would be a part of
> the overall length in the computation.
> The lengths that I have are: COM wave length @ 87.93 inches
> NAV wave length @ 99.23 inches
>
> So If I have a NAV Coax cable length of 279.25 inches would I trim off
> 31.19 inches or 31.19 + 22" for the length of an antenna element?
> So as to yield a lead length of 2 1/2 wave lengths.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming Coax Cable Length |
He's right. One of the great things about coax versus other feedlines is
that you can make it any length and route it virtually anywhere. Make sure
to use the right impedance for your antenna and try to keep it relatively
short to reduce losses. But don't worry about wavelengths and velocity factors.
Dave Morris
N5UP
At 07:12 AM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>The coax cable has nothing to do with the length. The length only matters
>in that the signal is weakened by a longer coax lead. The antenna element
>is the important length. It is information readily available in the
>aeroelectric manual that Bob sells. I would read it to you but mine is in
>my hangar at the moment and I am home.
>
>Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up Flying 60 Hours
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <davgray(at)sbcglobal.net>
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trimming Coax Cable Length
>
>
> >
> > I am installing coax for the NAV and COM antennas. I understand that the
> > length of the cables should be trimmed to some multiple of 1/2 or full
> > wave length in the mid frequency range for each unit in order to maximize
> > the performance.
> >
> > It would seem that the length of the antenna elements would be a part of
> > the overall length in the computation.
> > The lengths that I have are: COM wave length @ 87.93 inches
> > NAV wave length @ 99.23 inches
> >
> > So If I have a NAV Coax cable length of 279.25 inches would I trim off
> > 31.19 inches or 31.19 + 22" for the length of an antenna element?
> > So as to yield a lead length of 2 1/2 wave lengths.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | TDR-950 Connections |
Hello,
My TDR-950 transponder has pins for external suppression and D4 for
high altitude reporting. I will use neither. Should they be left
open, or wired to ground? I found the pinout with Bob's help but I
have not located an install manual yet.
TIA - Pete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: TDR-950 Connections |
><pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
>
>
>Hello,
>
>My TDR-950 transponder has pins for external suppression and D4 for
>high altitude reporting. I will use neither. Should they be left
>open, or wired to ground? I found the pinout with Bob's help but I
>have not located an install manual yet.
all of the installations I've worked with leave these
pins open if not used.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
>
>
>ELT antenna location
>
>I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic canopy,
>it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
>the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
>structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
>vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
ELT.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | TDR-950 Connections |
Leave them open...
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Howell
Subject: AeroElectric-List: TDR-950 Connections
<pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
Hello,
My TDR-950 transponder has pins for external suppression and D4 for
high altitude reporting. I will use neither. Should they be left
open, or wired to ground? I found the pinout with Bob's help but I
have not located an install manual yet.
TIA - Pete
--
8/25/2005
--
8/25/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
| From: | "BPA" <BPA(at)bpaengines.com> |
ELT's are installed so the insurance company can find the wreck.:-))
Monty Barrett
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
>
>
>ELT antenna location
>
>I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic
canopy,
>it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage
under
>the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
>structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements,
i.e.
>vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
ELT.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I think I would choose a rubber ducky for my ELT antenna. It is very
likely to survive the crash.
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>ELT antenna location
>>
>>I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic
>> canopy, it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the
>> fuselage under the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding
>> separation from metal structure such as side walls? I am aware of the
>> common requirements, i.e. vertical orientation, closeness to other
>> antennas, etc.
>
> There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
> for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
> But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
> and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
> optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
>
> Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
> of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
> to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
> if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
> hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
> up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
> will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
> ELT.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne" <webfootboat(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
The searches I have flown with the CAP have proven to me that "if" the
ELT is working the downed aircraft is way easier to find, and there is
always family members waiting for some word, never have seen an
insurance adjuster.
My .02 worth
Wayne
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BPA
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
ELT's are installed so the insurance company can find the wreck.:-))
Monty Barrett
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
>
>
>ELT antenna location
>
>I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic
canopy,
>it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage
under
>the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
>structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements,
i.e.
>vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
ELT.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
Another perspective.
Way to much worries about ELTs. Install the cheapest ELT that meets
the FAA requirements and don't depend on it. Then buy a sat phone. If
you survive the event and have a handy list of phone numbers and a
minimal GPS then you are set. In N America weather permitting you
could expect the SAR chopper to be there pretty quick. The cost of
the phone is pretty cheap insurance and they usually include a few
free minutes each month. Weight - the things are not light weight -
less than an elt. They have wide use for explorers and mountain
climbers. If you are watching the news lately some of the video is
via sat phone. Nice thing about a sat phone, unlike a cell phone, it
works anywhere. BTW, there are two sat phone providers and they have
used and rental handsets available.
An example would be the desert racers where each team has a bunch of
sat phones and the phone numbers for each other, and for the rescue
and chase choppers for the events. The sat phones are credited for
many life saving incidents. When traveling alone a hundred miles from
a town which can provide no help for a broken vehicle its nice to
call your buddy in San Diego and have him bring a trailer to bring
you home. That method may take a couple of days and hopefully is not
life threatening. This kind if happening probably is something that
is done all the time with no fanfare and no dealings with the Mexican
authorities. A big advantage.
The local hiking club here in Colorado has one they pass from
leader to leader, trip to trip. The first time they tested it they
dialed 911. Ha, they got a message in French. No way to make the
prearranged call to the local sheriff. Just goes to show you need to
have an appropriate number to call. Like your evacuation insurance
company or the sheriff in the jurisdiction where you are located or
all of them along your flight path. Not hard to get the numbers if
one does homework before departing. I suppose one could even call the
FAA/NTSB for more trouble than you would want. :-)
Of course the cell phone and GPS are legendary for getting
immediate rescue. Lots of stories using that method as well, but not
much help in some parts of the world. Trouble is planes don't usually
end up on a high peak or ridge for acceptable cell reception. They
usually end up in the bottom of the canyon. The sat phone has a good
chance like the GPS or ELT of getting a usable signal.
Regards, Paul
====================
At 02:21 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >ELT antenna location
> >
> >I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic canopy,
> >it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
> >the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
> >structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
> >vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
>
> There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
> for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
> But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
> and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
> optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
>
> Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
> of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
> to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
> if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
> hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
> up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
> will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
> ELT.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
How fast can you dial a number when you are unconscious?
How fast can you dial a number when two broken arms?
From the beginning of serious injury to death covers a pretty broad range,
and a properly installed ELT will trigger when the plane crashes; you don't
have to dial any numbers.
A 121.5 mhz unit is now about $200. A 406 mhz unit is now available for less
than $1,000.
And I imagine that when you regain consciousness after a long night out in
the middle of South Dakota or some place, you'd really wish you'd dropped
the grand...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
PWilson
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
Another perspective.
Way to much worries about ELTs. Install the cheapest ELT that meets
the FAA requirements and don't depend on it. Then buy a sat phone. If
you survive the event and have a handy list of phone numbers and a
minimal GPS then you are set. In N America weather permitting you
could expect the SAR chopper to be there pretty quick. The cost of
the phone is pretty cheap insurance and they usually include a few
free minutes each month. Weight - the things are not light weight -
less than an elt. They have wide use for explorers and mountain
climbers. If you are watching the news lately some of the video is
via sat phone. Nice thing about a sat phone, unlike a cell phone, it
works anywhere. BTW, there are two sat phone providers and they have
used and rental handsets available.
An example would be the desert racers where each team has a bunch of
sat phones and the phone numbers for each other, and for the rescue
and chase choppers for the events. The sat phones are credited for
many life saving incidents. When traveling alone a hundred miles from
a town which can provide no help for a broken vehicle its nice to
call your buddy in San Diego and have him bring a trailer to bring
you home. That method may take a couple of days and hopefully is not
life threatening. This kind if happening probably is something that
is done all the time with no fanfare and no dealings with the Mexican
authorities. A big advantage.
The local hiking club here in Colorado has one they pass from
leader to leader, trip to trip. The first time they tested it they
dialed 911. Ha, they got a message in French. No way to make the
prearranged call to the local sheriff. Just goes to show you need to
have an appropriate number to call. Like your evacuation insurance
company or the sheriff in the jurisdiction where you are located or
all of them along your flight path. Not hard to get the numbers if
one does homework before departing. I suppose one could even call the
FAA/NTSB for more trouble than you would want. :-)
Of course the cell phone and GPS are legendary for getting
immediate rescue. Lots of stories using that method as well, but not
much help in some parts of the world. Trouble is planes don't usually
end up on a high peak or ridge for acceptable cell reception. They
usually end up in the bottom of the canyon. The sat phone has a good
chance like the GPS or ELT of getting a usable signal.
Regards, Paul
====================
At 02:21 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >ELT antenna location
> >
> >I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic
canopy,
> >it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
> >the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
> >structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
> >vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
>
> There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
> for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
> But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
> and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
> optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
>
> Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
> of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
> to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
> if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
> hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
> up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
> will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
> ELT.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
And you probably wished you could call your loved ones to tell them
you survived while waiting for the rescue which you have no control of.
Paul
===========At 04:57 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>How fast can you dial a number when you are unconscious?
>
>How fast can you dial a number when two broken arms?
>
> >From the beginning of serious injury to death covers a pretty broad range,
>and a properly installed ELT will trigger when the plane crashes; you don't
>have to dial any numbers.
>
>A 121.5 mhz unit is now about $200. A 406 mhz unit is now available for less
>than $1,000.
>
>And I imagine that when you regain consciousness after a long night out in
>the middle of South Dakota or some place, you'd really wish you'd dropped
>the grand...
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>PWilson
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
>
>
>Another perspective.
> Way to much worries about ELTs. Install the cheapest ELT that meets
>the FAA requirements and don't depend on it. Then buy a sat phone. If
>you survive the event and have a handy list of phone numbers and a
>minimal GPS then you are set. In N America weather permitting you
>could expect the SAR chopper to be there pretty quick. The cost of
>the phone is pretty cheap insurance and they usually include a few
>free minutes each month. Weight - the things are not light weight -
>less than an elt. They have wide use for explorers and mountain
>climbers. If you are watching the news lately some of the video is
>via sat phone. Nice thing about a sat phone, unlike a cell phone, it
>works anywhere. BTW, there are two sat phone providers and they have
>used and rental handsets available.
>An example would be the desert racers where each team has a bunch of
>sat phones and the phone numbers for each other, and for the rescue
>and chase choppers for the events. The sat phones are credited for
>many life saving incidents. When traveling alone a hundred miles from
>a town which can provide no help for a broken vehicle its nice to
>call your buddy in San Diego and have him bring a trailer to bring
>you home. That method may take a couple of days and hopefully is not
>life threatening. This kind if happening probably is something that
>is done all the time with no fanfare and no dealings with the Mexican
>authorities. A big advantage.
> The local hiking club here in Colorado has one they pass from
>leader to leader, trip to trip. The first time they tested it they
>dialed 911. Ha, they got a message in French. No way to make the
>prearranged call to the local sheriff. Just goes to show you need to
>have an appropriate number to call. Like your evacuation insurance
>company or the sheriff in the jurisdiction where you are located or
>all of them along your flight path. Not hard to get the numbers if
>one does homework before departing. I suppose one could even call the
>FAA/NTSB for more trouble than you would want. :-)
> Of course the cell phone and GPS are legendary for getting
>immediate rescue. Lots of stories using that method as well, but not
>much help in some parts of the world. Trouble is planes don't usually
>end up on a high peak or ridge for acceptable cell reception. They
>usually end up in the bottom of the canyon. The sat phone has a good
>chance like the GPS or ELT of getting a usable signal.
> Regards, Paul
>====================
>
>At 02:21 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >ELT antenna location
> > >
> > >I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic
>canopy,
> > >it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
> > >the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
> > >structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
> > >vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
> >
> > There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
> > for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
> > But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
> > and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
> > optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
> >
> > Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
> > of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
> > to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
> > if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
> > hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
> > up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
> > will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
> > ELT.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)thayer.dartmouth.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
PWilson wrote:
> And you probably wished you could call your loved ones to tell them
> you survived while waiting for the rescue which you have no control of.
>>A 121.5 mhz unit is now about $200. A 406 mhz unit is now available for less
>>than $1,000.
My personal compromise was the standard ELT in the plane
(it has been there for many years) and the purchase of a new
PLB (Personal Locater Beacon) with built in GPS. $650 from Spruce:
ACR 406 Locator Beacon w/GPS 11-02899
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/406plb.php
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 2006 Seminar Schedule |
Dee and I are starting to plan the 'Connection's activities
for 2006 which includes weekend seminars. Many folks think we
just pick a spot on the map and post the date. Actually, these
programs are offered by invitation from a group of folks who
believe there's enough local interest to warrant the trip.
If anyone out there knows their EAA chapter programs/activities
chairperson and thinks they'd be interested in hosting a seminar,
I'd be pleased to hear from them. Right now, the 2006 calendar is
wide open. Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
FAA requires ELTs meet TSO C-91a. The ELT should be installed per the manufactures
TSO approved installation data and instructions. The manufacture can only
make suggestions. The installer certifies the installation is acceptable. However
the antenna is an approved part of the ELT's TSO. Substitution of a rubber
duck antenna is dubious, unless you test it. Also aviation circular AC 43.13-2A,
Chapter 2 Paragraph 28 states "Follow the manufactures installation procedures
when available".
The requirement for an ELT, per FAR part 91.207, does NOT address installation
except to say:
91.207(d)(1) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of this
section must be inspected ..........for -- (1) Proper installation.
Proper installation means, following the approved installation, parts and instructions?
However as the installer you approve it.
My ELT came with the installation instructions: ELT unit and antenna be mounted
so the coax is routed not to cross a bulkhead, requires the (supplied) antenna
be mounted external to the aircraft, vertically and at a location as far away
as practical from other antennas. The instructions also specify strength of
the mounting brackets for ELT and antenna (100 times the static weight of the
ELT or antenna). If there is a chance the structure can deform and pull the coax
out a tether needs to be installed between the antenna mount and ELT unit
mount. Install as far aft as possible (baggage compartment OK).
Now Rubber ducky antennas, mounting antennas horizontal inside the wing tip, tail
fairing or in the cockpit can work, but it is not per the manufactures instructions
(unless using the all in one EBC ELT). Even experimental aircraft must
meet part 91. Part 91 requires a TSO'ed C-91a, end of story.
Cel Phones, Sat phones are great, smoke signals, personal hand held 406 ELTs (w/ internal GPS position) are also cool http://www.tlrsystems.com/products/personal-locator-beacon.html
However these above devices do not negate the regulation for an aircraft mounted
ELT that automatically activates. When the 406 units are required you will have
two antennas to deal with. The new ELTs use two antennas, one for the 121.5
freq and another for the 406 freq.
I will leave the debate about whether an ELT can save your life to the experts.G
>Date: Sep 01, 2005
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Location
>
>
>ELT antenna location
>
>I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic canopy,
>it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
>the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
>structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
>vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
ELT.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy and Jill Foreman" <guyjill01(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | bleed through noise from my KNS 80 ? |
I have a Lancair 320 with a KNS 80 Nav system installed. I did all the
wiring myself, ( probbly why I have a Problem). With all the other avionics
on, and the KNS 80 "OFF" I have no static noise going through my headset.
When I turn the KNS 80 "ON" I get static through my headset. Something else
thats weird is when I turn the volume up on the KNS 80, the static gets
louder, and the audio panel is "OFF" Any Advise???
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
JFTR: The Artex ME 406 uses a single antenna for both 121.5 & 406 mHz. Under
$1,000 with a whip antenna rated for < 200 kias...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
FAA requires ELTs meet TSO C-91a. The ELT should be installed per the
manufactures TSO approved installation data and instructions. The
manufacture can only make suggestions. The installer certifies the
installation is acceptable. However the antenna is an approved part of the
ELT's TSO. Substitution of a rubber duck antenna is dubious, unless you test
it. Also aviation circular AC 43.13-2A, Chapter 2 Paragraph 28 states
"Follow the manufactures installation procedures when available".
The requirement for an ELT, per FAR part 91.207, does NOT address
installation except to say:
91.207(d)(1) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of
this section must be inspected ..........for -- (1) Proper installation.
Proper installation means, following the approved installation, parts and
instructions? However as the installer you approve it.
My ELT came with the installation instructions: ELT unit and antenna be
mounted so the coax is routed not to cross a bulkhead, requires the
(supplied) antenna be mounted external to the aircraft, vertically and at a
location as far away as practical from other antennas. The instructions also
specify strength of the mounting brackets for ELT and antenna (100 times
the static weight of the ELT or antenna). If there is a chance the structure
can deform and pull the coax out a tether needs to be installed between the
antenna mount and ELT unit mount. Install as far aft as possible (baggage
compartment OK).
Now Rubber ducky antennas, mounting antennas horizontal inside the wing tip,
tail fairing or in the cockpit can work, but it is not per the manufactures
instructions (unless using the all in one EBC ELT). Even experimental
aircraft must meet part 91. Part 91 requires a TSO'ed C-91a, end of story.
Cel Phones, Sat phones are great, smoke signals, personal hand held 406 ELTs
(w/ internal GPS position) are also cool
http://www.tlrsystems.com/products/personal-locator-beacon.html
However these above devices do not negate the regulation for an aircraft
mounted ELT that automatically activates. When the 406 units are required
you will have two antennas to deal with. The new ELTs use two antennas, one
for the 121.5 freq and another for the 406 freq.
I will leave the debate about whether an ELT can save your life to the
experts.G
>Date: Sep 01, 2005
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Subject: Re: ELT Antenna Location
>
>
>ELT antenna location
>
>I am installing an ELT in my RV-6 aircraft. Since it has a plastic canopy,
>it would seem that the antenna can be installed inside the fuselage under
>the canopy. Are there any special rules regarding separation from metal
>structure such as side walls? I am aware of the common requirements, i.e.
>vertical orientation, closeness to other antennas, etc.
There are no "rules" . . . only a handful of suggestions
for optimizing performance in case the ELT is really needed.
But given all the variables that surface after the crumpling
and rolling has stopped, there is nothing you can do that will
optimize ELT operations for all foreseeable outcomes.
Given further that ELT's add almost nothing to your chances
of survival in an accident, it seems that ANY way you want
to install it will comply with the letter of Part 91 even
if it misses the intent by a country mile. Keep a VHF Comm
hand held, cellphone and GPS in your flight bag . . . if you're still
up and running after the airplane is dead, these critters
will contribute far more to your chances of survival than the
ELT.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Crate" <john.crate(at)encode.com> |
| Subject: | Shower of Sparks Ignition |
Bob
I have read your excellent article on shower of sparks ignition. I am
confused on one point. In the article, it shows unshielded wire between the
BO terminal on the key switch and the vibrator. The aircraft that
everything came out of used shielded wire for this application. Can you
please comment.
Thanks
John
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks Ignition |
>
>Bob
>
>I have read your excellent article on shower of sparks ignition. I am
>confused on one point. In the article, it shows unshielded wire between the
>BO terminal on the key switch and the vibrator. The aircraft that
>everything came out of used shielded wire for this application. Can you
>please comment.
In only a very few instances does shielded wire hurt or degrade
performance of a system . . . and usually in surprising
ways. I've worked a trim system on a biz jet where shielded
wire was called out for mechanical robustness but the physics
of the shielding contributed to poor relay contact performance
that led to sticking contacts and runaway trim systems. In the
instance you've cited, there's no evil in wiring the BO lead
with shielded wire but give that it's only active while the
starter is engaged, whatever noise might propagate from this
wire is temporary and usually insignificant.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Gross Antenna Modification |
Would a 1/4 wave vertical antenna cut for 121.5 Mhz be more effective if it were
truncated 6 inches at the tip or bent so that it was 6 inches shorter? Although
I may still use a mid-loading coil to shorten the length, I would still like
to know the answer should my back be to the wall.
Dave Reel - RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gross Antenna Modification |
Cutting 6 inches off a 1/4 wave antenna will totally shift its resonant
frequency outside the aircraft band, reducing the output of the transmitter
quite a bit. I would rather bend it around to keep as much of the original
length as possible... if you have to bend it 180 degrees back on itself,
that's just as bad as cutting it. If there is a coil available for that
antenna that will preserve the resonant frequency, that is the best
solution. Is this for an ELT or for a COM radio?
Dave Morris
At 09:26 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
>
>Would a 1/4 wave vertical antenna cut for 121.5 Mhz be more effective if
>it were truncated 6 inches at the tip or bent so that it was 6 inches
>shorter? Although I may still use a mid-loading coil to shorten the
>length, I would still like to know the answer should my back be to the wall.
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leo Corbalis" <leocorbalis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gross Antenna Modification |
A mid loading coil might raise hell by vibrating in the wind which is a bit
stronger than on a car. Use the full antenna. You may need all the range you
can get when it really really matters
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Gross Antenna Modification
>
> Would a 1/4 wave vertical antenna cut for 121.5 Mhz be more effective if
> it were truncated 6 inches at the tip or bent so that it was 6 inches
> shorter? Although I may still use a mid-loading coil to shorten the
> length, I would still like to know the answer should my back be to the
> wall.
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 2006 Seminar Schedule |
Bob Hi from UK!
> If anyone out there knows their EAA chapter programs/activities
> chairperson and thinks they'd be interested in hosting a seminar,
> I'd be pleased to hear from them. Right now, the 2006 calendar is
> wide open. Thanks!
I'm asking via the list whether a trip to the UK is possible for an Event
such as the PFA Rally in July 2006 where we also have many visitors from
Europe and beyond. Lots of people here refer to your documentation and use
the list. If there is a good response is that of interest?
Regards
Gerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
Thanks Bill:
I forgot about that one; This is the one I will likely upgrade to.
http://www.artex.net/documents/ME406.pdf
http://www.artex.net/whatsnewartex.html
Another nice thing is a 5 year battery. G
From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Location
JFTR: The Artex ME 406 uses a single antenna for both 121.5 & 406 mHz.
Under $1,000 with a whip antenna rated for < 200 kias...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Location |
In a message dated 9/4/2005 7:08:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com writes:
I forgot about that one; This is the one I will likely upgrade to.
http://www.artex.net/documents/ME406.pdf
http://www.artex.net/whatsnewartex.html
Another nice thing is a 5 year battery. G
Good Morning gmcjetpilot,
That unit looks very interesting, but I found no data in the brochure
concerning the shape, weight and footprint of the antenna nor of the switch and
test unit that is normally mounted in the cockpit for such units. Is that not
included with the unit?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net> |
| Subject: | Audio panel unswitched inputs |
In wiring my audio panel I found I have 4 unswitched audio inputs but
seven devices to hook up to the inputs.
Can I run 2 wires into each input? Furthermore, if I use 2 wires per
input do I need some protection (diode?) to keep the 2 devices
electrically separated ?
Or would it be better to use the ADF, DME and AUX switched inputs?
Thanks
Sheldon Olesen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Gross Antenna Modification |
A rubber duck antenna on a decent ground plane is only slightly
degraded from a full sized 1/4-wave in terms of performance. I
almost got a rubber duck stuck on top of a Beechjet (under the
fiberglas dorsal fin cover) until some well meaning but uninformed
bureaucrat decided the antenna supplied with the ELT was part of
the TSO and a substitute could not be made legally without getting
the TSO ammeneded. Sooooooo, instead of a decent performing antenna
with good SWR we have a reasonable performing antenna with poor SWR
because of proximity to metalic components in the fin cap.
If it were my airplane, I'd have no problems with a rubber duck
antenna designed for hand-held, VHF comm transceivers.
Bob . . .
>
>
>A mid loading coil might raise hell by vibrating in the wind which is a bit
>stronger than on a car. Use the full antenna. You may need all the range you
>can get when it really really matters
>
>Leo Corbalis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>
>To: "aeroelectric-list"
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Gross Antenna Modification
>
>
> >
> > Would a 1/4 wave vertical antenna cut for 121.5 Mhz be more effective if
> > it were truncated 6 inches at the tip or bent so that it was 6 inches
> > shorter? Although I may still use a mid-loading coil to shorten the
> > length, I would still like to know the answer should my back be to the
> > wall.
> >
> > Dave Reel - RV8A
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Audio panel unswitched inputs |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Sheldon -
The tech who wired our stack said that it would be OK to double or triple
up on the inputs. He suggested that a 300 ohm resistor be put in series
with each input wire. We ended up putting 4 or 5 into the single
unswitched audio pin of the Garmin 340. However, I have read on one of
these lists that a 1000 ohm is recommended. Can't vouch for the accuracy
of that or the author's qualifications. If you use the ADF or DME input
lines, then you must placard the button or position on the selector switch
as to what signal it is controlling.
Hope this helps,
John
wrote:
>
>
> In wiring my audio panel I found I have 4 unswitched audio inputs but
> seven devices to hook up to the inputs.
> Can I run 2 wires into each input? Furthermore, if I use 2 wires per
> input do I need some protection (diode?) to keep the 2 devices
> electrically separated ?
> Or would it be better to use the ADF, DME and AUX switched inputs?
>
>
> Thanks
> Sheldon Olesen
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | bleed through noise from my KNS 80 ? |
Check your audio grounds from the KNS-80, make sure they go to a
dedicated audio ground. Also check that you audio line out is going to
the correct place( the proper pin on you audio panel. I should mention
the audio out from the KNS-80 should be a shielded pair with the shield
ground being terminated at the audio panel ONLY.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy
and Jill Foreman
Subject: AeroElectric-List: bleed through noise from my KNS 80 ?
I have a Lancair 320 with a KNS 80 Nav system installed. I did all the
wiring myself, ( probbly why I have a Problem). With all the other
avionics
on, and the KNS 80 "OFF" I have no static noise going through my
headset.
When I turn the KNS 80 "ON" I get static through my headset. Something
else
thats weird is when I turn the volume up on the KNS 80, the static gets
louder, and the audio panel is "OFF" Any Advise???
--
8/25/2005
--
8/25/2005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Wiring plan for RV7A |
Hi to all
I am presently working on the fuse of an RV7A. Finish kit is on the way. I
know now is the time to decided on the wiring of the plane. The plane will
be all electric. Two e-Mags, electronic fuel injection, Dynon avionics /
engine monitor.............My intentions are dual alternators / batteries
/plit bus. Easier said than done. Other than my study of aeroelectric
connections and some electronics for dummies types books I am a real novice
in this area.
Your suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated. Where to place the
second battery?Is the dual system really essenstial?
Thanks in advance for your help
Frank Stringham @ SGU and SLC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Guy and Jill Foreman" <guyjill01(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | bleed through noise from my KNS 80 ? |
Thanks Mike, I know I didn't have a shielded wire on the audio out, I'll
change it and see what happens. Thanks, Guy
>From: "Mike Larkin" <mlas(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: bleed through noise from my KNS 80 ?
>Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 10:16:08 -0700
>
>
>Check your audio grounds from the KNS-80, make sure they go to a
>dedicated audio ground. Also check that you audio line out is going to
>the correct place( the proper pin on you audio panel. I should mention
>the audio out from the KNS-80 should be a shielded pair with the shield
>ground being terminated at the audio panel ONLY.
>
>Mike Larkin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy
>and Jill Foreman
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: bleed through noise from my KNS 80 ?
>
>
>
>I have a Lancair 320 with a KNS 80 Nav system installed. I did all the
>wiring myself, ( probbly why I have a Problem). With all the other
>avionics
>on, and the KNS 80 "OFF" I have no static noise going through my
>headset.
>When I turn the KNS 80 "ON" I get static through my headset. Something
>else
>thats weird is when I turn the volume up on the KNS 80, the static gets
>louder, and the audio panel is "OFF" Any Advise???
>
>
>--
>8/25/2005
>
>
>--
>8/25/2005
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Aero Electric-List: RE: Wiring plan for RV7A |
That's a lot of trouble to keep a dual e-Mag system running. Why not one E
and one P-Mag and you have a lot more backup with much less complexity.
Dual Alternator's Ok and you could get by with a smaller battery for the
avionics BU. Take a look at the Z-13 diagram with dual E/P-Mags. Add a
smaller avionics battery and simplify the system. Or not,...:-)
Just .02
Bill S
7a fuse panel P-Mag
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frank
Stringham
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Wiring plan for RV7A
Hi to all
I am presently working on the fuse of an RV7A. Finish kit is on the way. I
know now is the time to decided on the wiring of the plane. The plane will
be all electric. Two e-Mags, electronic fuel injection, Dynon avionics /
engine monitor.............My intentions are dual alternators / batteries
/plit bus. Easier said than done. Other than my study of aeroelectric
connections and some electronics for dummies types books I am a real novice
in this area.
Your suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated. Where to place the
second battery?Is the dual system really essenstial?
Thanks in advance for your help
Frank Stringham @ SGU and SLC
________________________________________________________________________________
AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com
| From: | Neil K Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Shower of Sparks installation help |
I'm in real need of some guidance on my S-o-S installation and I need
to TALK to someone who knows there way around these things.
Could someone who's done, or has, a S-o-S set-up please give me their
phone number?
Many thanks
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Shower of Sparks installation help |
>
>
>I'm in real need of some guidance on my S-o-S installation and I need
>to TALK to someone who knows there way around these things.
>Could someone who's done, or has, a S-o-S set-up please give me their
>phone number?
Start with the article at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf
and then post any questions you may have here on the list.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 2006 Seminar Schedule |
><gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
>
>Bob Hi from UK!
>
> > If anyone out there knows their EAA chapter programs/activities
> > chairperson and thinks they'd be interested in hosting a seminar,
> > I'd be pleased to hear from them. Right now, the 2006 calendar is
> > wide open. Thanks!
>
>I'm asking via the list whether a trip to the UK is possible for an Event
>such as the PFA Rally in July 2006 where we also have many visitors from
>Europe and beyond. Lots of people here refer to your documentation and use
>the list. If there is a good response is that of interest?
Sure. Keep in mind that the seminar is a 1-1/2 day, 12-hour course.
I've tried in the past to offer this program in conjunction with
air shows. My experience with this has been generally poor. Most of
the folks who come to air shows are not interested in the details
of system design and fabrication. Further, tying up 12 hours of
an attendee's time in a classroom when there's much more exciting
things to be seen outside is a big deterrent/distraction.
The seminar might be offered in the two days preceding or following
the show. This would let folks combine two activities into a single
trip.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
Bob,
Sorry to be so long in replying.
Your question was,
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
I don't have recommendations for installation. That's what I asking. How
best to install sensors at the locations I want to monitor. Should I use HE
devices? I'd like to monitor the volts and amps at my main battery, standby
battery, main bus, standby bus, alternator B lead, and avionics bus. It doesn't
matter how I will use them in flight! I simply want to know what type of
sensor is best for the task and how best to install them in my airplane. Don't
need philosophy, just technical information.
Your statement was,
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
Mystified or not, I still want to be able to monitor readings at various
places in the electrical system. My question remains the same - how to do it?
Your statement was,
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
You needn't suggest goals for me. My goal is to monitor readings at various
locations throughout the electrical system. I may or may not use them in an
emergency situation. I will decide as I develop my emergency plans for my
aircraft. Regardless, I want to monitor voltage and amps at various locations
in
my electrical system. How can that best be done? It seems to me that I can
accomplish the desired goal of monitoring the electrical system by using HE
devices at the locations mentioned in the first paragraph. I want to be able to
use a selector switch to choose which sensor to display on the engine monitor.
I'd also like to download data after landing to analyse later, perhaps more
data than I display in flight.
It doesn't matter if I have a plan B or C, or why I want to monitor the
electrics, or what my paradigm is for alternator failure is. I just want to know
how to monitor volts and amps at numerous places within the electrical system.
Anyone?
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa, FL
In a message dated 8/27/2005 3:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And
your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground
"saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on
the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing an
> >airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able
to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery
bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
>
>Bob,
>Sorry to be so long in replying.
>Your question was,
> Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
> What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
> use them in flight?
>I don't have recommendations for installation. That's what I asking. How
>best to install sensors at the locations I want to monitor. Should I use HE
>devices? I'd like to monitor the volts and amps at my main battery, standby
>battery, main bus, standby bus, alternator B lead, and avionics bus. It
>doesn't
>matter how I will use them in flight! I simply want to know what type of
>sensor is best for the task and how best to install them in my
>airplane. Don't
>need philosophy, just technical information.
Shunts work well, Hall effect devices work well. If you want analog
displays (pointers) then you're more likely to find suitable instruments
that work with shunts. Most HE systems will be set up for digital displays.
>You needn't suggest goals for me. My goal is to monitor readings at various
>locations throughout the electrical system. I may or may not use them in an
>emergency situation. I will decide as I develop my emergency plans for my
>aircraft. Regardless, I want to monitor voltage and amps at various
>locations in
>my electrical system. How can that best be done? It seems to me that I can
>accomplish the desired goal of monitoring the electrical system by using HE
>devices at the locations mentioned in the first paragraph. I want to be
>able to
>use a selector switch to choose which sensor to display on the engine
>monitor.
> I'd also like to download data after landing to analyse later, perhaps more
>data than I display in flight.
>It doesn't matter if I have a plan B or C, or why I want to monitor the
>electrics, or what my paradigm is for alternator failure is. I just want
>to know
>how to monitor volts and amps at numerous places within the electrical system.
>Anyone?
If you're handy with programming (or know someone who is) then
one can craft a data acquisition system that will meet your
needs. I build several systems per year to investigate specific
system malfunctions . . . but these are always PC based using
some COTS data acquisition products. Some of my favorites are
http://weedtech.com/ and http://labjack.com/labjack_u12.html
These are really easy to use and can be configured to accept
data through a diagnostics/monitoring port like I described last
week at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Electrical_System_Diagnostics.pdf
At the present time, I'm aware of no one who offers equipment
designed to permanently install in your airplane for the purposes
you've described.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Niles" <bniles(at)cfl.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
Hi Stan,
I thought you were using BMA's EFIS/one? The EFIS/one uses the little
doughnut type sensors you can from BMA. They measure +/- 100amps and connect
to any of the processor's voltage inputs. Hope this was what you are
looking for. B Niles
----- Original Message -----
From: <Speedy11(at)aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection
>
> Bob,
> Sorry to be so long in replying.
> Your question was,
> Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
> What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
> use them in flight?
> I don't have recommendations for installation. That's what I asking. How
> best to install sensors at the locations I want to monitor. Should I use
> HE
> devices? I'd like to monitor the volts and amps at my main battery,
> standby
> battery, main bus, standby bus, alternator B lead, and avionics bus. It
> doesn't
> matter how I will use them in flight! I simply want to know what type of
> sensor is best for the task and how best to install them in my airplane.
> Don't
> need philosophy, just technical information.
> Your statement was,
> I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
> me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise
> folks
> who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
> would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
> could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
> probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
> any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
> telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> Mystified or not, I still want to be able to monitor readings at various
> places in the electrical system. My question remains the same - how to do
> it?
> Your statement was,
> Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
> for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
> sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
> pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
> useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
> pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
> arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
> won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
> If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
> ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
>
> Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
> as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
> root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
> available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
>
> You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
> do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
> You needn't suggest goals for me. My goal is to monitor readings at
> various
> locations throughout the electrical system. I may or may not use them in
> an
> emergency situation. I will decide as I develop my emergency plans for my
> aircraft. Regardless, I want to monitor voltage and amps at various
> locations in
> my electrical system. How can that best be done? It seems to me that I
> can
> accomplish the desired goal of monitoring the electrical system by using
> HE
> devices at the locations mentioned in the first paragraph. I want to be
> able to
> use a selector switch to choose which sensor to display on the engine
> monitor.
> I'd also like to download data after landing to analyse later, perhaps
> more
> data than I display in flight.
> It doesn't matter if I have a plan B or C, or why I want to monitor the
> electrics, or what my paradigm is for alternator failure is. I just want
> to know
> how to monitor volts and amps at numerous places within the electrical
> system.
> Anyone?
> Stan Sutterfield
> Tampa, FL
>
>
> In a message dated 8/27/2005 3:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:
>> >Bob,
>> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is
>> >suggesting
>> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
>> >necessary to
>> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And
> your
>> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
>> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground
> "saves
>> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that
>> >never
>> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
>> >diagnosis
>> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on
> the
>> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can
>> >be
>> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be
>> >on
>> >board,
>> >so no weight or savings there.
>> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
>> analysing an
>> >airborne situation.
>
> Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
> What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
> use them in flight?
>
>
>> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
>> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
>> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but
>> >I
>> >still want to see them.
>
> I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
> me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise
> folks
> who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
> would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
> could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
> probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
> any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
> telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
>
>> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we
>> >don't
>> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
>> >methods
>> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
>> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
>> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
>> >battery
>> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to
>> >achieve.
>> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be
>> >able
> to
>> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery
> bus,
>> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
>> >know how
>> >best to do it.
>
> Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
> for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
> sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
> pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
> useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
> pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
> arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
> won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
> If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
> ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
>
> Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
> as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
> root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
> available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
>
> You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
> do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: P-Mag as back-up alternator |
cast.net>
> Figure Z-13/8 of your AeroElectric Connection "features" dual
> P-Mags, but with a separate back-up B&C SD-8 alternator. I have been
> told that the alternator built into the P-Mags can be used not only to
> power themselves in case of a power problem, but also to power other
> items (i.e. an E-bus), eliminating the need for a separate back-up
> alternator. Any thoughts on this? (One of those things that sounds too
> good to be true&) I haven't seen this discussed in the Matronics threads.
The alternators built into p-mags are sized only to
supply the needs of the ignition system and cannot
(should not) be tapped for other purposes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Reference documents reorganization |
Spent some time reorganizing the reference documents and crafted
a table of contents page to make things easier to find. See
table of contents at:
http://aeroelectric.com/Downloads.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Shower of Sparks installation help |
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Neil K Clayton
<>
9/6/2005
Hello Neil, I know your frustration well. I went through the same process
over several months before getting the information needed. But I am not
inclined to work the problem with you over the telephone, at least at this
stage of the game. Several visual / documented parameters have to be
established first in order to make such a conversation effective.
Let me make some comments for your consideration:
1) If you are actually considering a true Bendix / TCM ancient technology
S-o-S system, don't do it. That is like going out and attempting to buy and
use a vacuum tube black and white television set -- it represents a
difficult backward leap.
2) Instead buy and install a Unison SlickSTART solid state magneto start
booster. The performance is vastly superior to the mechanical vibrator
technology in the S-o-S system.
http://www.unisonindustries.com/products/ignition.html
3) I can provide you the details of how to connect a SlickSTART better than
Unison. All of their instructions are aimed at replacing an existing S-o-S
unit with a SlickSTART and don't provide the pin out information needed. You
can find Unison's SlickSTART installation instructions with Google.
4) I hope that you are not using a key switch ignition switch. That is
undesirable and will complicate your installation, but can be done if must
be.
5) Bendix published a booklet L-576-3, revised in March 1971, called "The
ABC's of the Bendix Shower of Sparks Ignition System". I have a copy and if
you can't get one elsewhere I would be willing to photo copy it and mail
that copy to you. The booklet deals with the S-o-S system, not the keyed
ignition switch if that is your connection problem area.
Looking forward to helping you if I can.
OC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Oil cooler lines as ground return |
I have a nose oil cooler in my Velocity.
I am replacing the existing heavy high pressure hydraulic
type(rubbercoverd /braided steel) oil cooler lines with lighter bare
metal lines. I'm planning soft copper 1/2" lines, with shrink wrap over
them.
I would like to use the lines as my ground return and remove the 2 AWG
wire I have now. I would tie the two copper lines together at the fire
wall and oil cooler with soldered braided cable to make them a single
return. Good idea?
I have a big engine and the starter needs all the current I can muster.
I have a 00 welding cable for my positive line from the starter to the
battery. Alternator uses the same wire for charging battery.
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Overvoltage protection and Nippon Denso alternator |
I'm using the 1987 Suzuki alternator (new) that is internally regulated. Is there
any purpose to adding the OVP module? (I ordered it from B and C) and if so,
how would it be wired in?
Ron P..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler lines as ground return |
snip >>
I would like to use the lines as my ground return and remove the 2 AWG
wire I have now. I would tie the two copper lines together at the fire
wall and oil cooler with soldered braided cable to make them a single
return. Good idea?
>>snip
Scott--
Exactly too-clever-by-half.
In any circuit you can be clever and use fluid/gas lines as conductors.
(However, there are laws proscribing many of these arrangements). But if
they break when you're starting the engine, the fluid/gas will
burn....sayonara amigo.
So perhaps the question should be--how soon should your widow re-marry?
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid."
-John Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler lines as ground return |
Couple hundred amps of electrical current, a high pressure oil line leak...
sounds like spewing fire to me. Bad idea dude. Most builders take special
care to make sure such braided or metal lines can never be used even
accidentally as a ground return path like that.
Dave Morris
At 12:08 PM 9/6/2005, you wrote:
>
>I have a nose oil cooler in my Velocity.
>
>I am replacing the existing heavy high pressure hydraulic
>type(rubbercoverd /braided steel) oil cooler lines with lighter bare
>metal lines. I'm planning soft copper 1/2" lines, with shrink wrap over
>them.
>
>I would like to use the lines as my ground return and remove the 2 AWG
>wire I have now. I would tie the two copper lines together at the fire
>wall and oil cooler with soldered braided cable to make them a single
>return. Good idea?
>
>I have a big engine and the starter needs all the current I can muster.
>
>I have a 00 welding cable for my positive line from the starter to the
>battery. Alternator uses the same wire for charging battery.
>
>Scott
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)telepath.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler lines as ground return |
> I am replacing the existing heavy high pressure hydraulic
> type(rubbercoverd /braided steel) oil cooler lines with lighter bare
> metal lines. I'm planning soft copper 1/2" lines, with shrink wrap
> over them.
Besides, I'd think double hard about using copper in an oil line.
Copper isn't really happy with acids that can form in oils and may
lead to formicary (look it up...nasty stuff) corrosion. I'd abandon the
copper idea......
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler lines as ground return |
Actually from everything I've read copper is much better than aluminum
in the area of corrosion resistance. Much much better.
In regards to using the oil lines as ground return, I've had about
2/3rds say yes, and 1/3rd say no...
I also have had two different folks that are running with copper oil
lines as ground returns for 5+ years.
Scott
Jim Baker wrote:
>
>
>
>>I am replacing the existing heavy high pressure hydraulic
>>type(rubbercoverd /braided steel) oil cooler lines with lighter bare
>>metal lines. I'm planning soft copper 1/2" lines, with shrink wrap
>>over them.
>>
>>
>
>Besides, I'd think double hard about using copper in an oil line.
>Copper isn't really happy with acids that can form in oils and may
>lead to formicary (look it up...nasty stuff) corrosion. I'd abandon the
>copper idea......
>
>Jim Baker
>580.788.2779
>'71 SV, 492TC
>Elmore City, OK
>
>
>.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler lines as ground return |
Scott, I'd be more concerned about vibration work hardening the copper
lines. The copper lines I have worked with were fairly lacking in
resistance to fatigue. Might want to have folks who know more than I in
this area comment on this factor.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Derrick" <scott(at)tnstaafl.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Oil cooler lines as ground return
>
>
> Actually from everything I've read copper is much better than aluminum
> in the area of corrosion resistance. Much much better.
>
> In regards to using the oil lines as ground return, I've had about
> 2/3rds say yes, and 1/3rd say no...
>
> I also have had two different folks that are running with copper oil
> lines as ground returns for 5+ years.
>
> Scott
>
> Jim Baker wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I am replacing the existing heavy high pressure hydraulic
>>>type(rubbercoverd /braided steel) oil cooler lines with lighter bare
>>>metal lines. I'm planning soft copper 1/2" lines, with shrink wrap
>>>over them.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Besides, I'd think double hard about using copper in an oil line.
>>Copper isn't really happy with acids that can form in oils and may
>>lead to formicary (look it up...nasty stuff) corrosion. I'd abandon the
>>copper idea......
>>
>>Jim Baker
>>580.788.2779
>>'71 SV, 492TC
>>Elmore City, OK
>>
>>
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Web Server Upgrade Today Tuesday 09/06/05 |
Dear Listers,
I will be taking the Matronics Web Server down for a few hours today,
Tuesday September 6 2005 for a chassis upgrade. Archive browsing and
searching along with subscription services will be unavailable for
be processed normally during the upgrade. Please check the Matronics
System Status Page for updates (although this page resides on the web
server and won't be available during the upgrade):
http://www.matronics.com/SystemStatus/
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | SlickSTART Installation Help |
9/6/2005
Hello Neil, I am sure that we can whip this thing into shape. You do have
two things that complicate the situation a bit: The key start switch and the
"swapped mags".
You will have to decide how you want to resolve those complications. There
is nothing physically wrong with either one of the complications (except for
the crappy reliability of the key switch), but putting the system together
while following written instructions or wiring diagrams for a different
arrangement will be sort of like trying to write your name on a piece of
paper with a pencil while viewing the paper in a mirror.
Let's talk some generalities first:
There is nothing wrong with having one mag with a properly functioning
impulse coupling and one mag with retard breaker points fed by a starting
vibrator on your engine. It is sort of a "both belt and suspenders" approach
that can provide a retarded spark from both mags while cranking.
On could even argue that having the impulse coupled mag installed gives one
the potential of starting the engine by hand propping if the battery is too
dead to either run the starter or the starting vibrator -- but I am not a
big fan of hand propping and certainly would not encourage anyone to go
flying with a battery so dead that the plane had to be hand propped.
On the other hand if the non retard breaker mag on an engine does not have a
properly functioning impulse coupling installed then one must take steps to
ground that mag out while cranking the engine to ensure that the non impulse
coupled mag does not fire at twenty some degrees before top dead center
(TDC) and create a vicious kick back. The grounding out can be accomplished
either by the way the starting switch wiring is connected or by the way the
starting vibrator is connected provided the system is built to accomplish
the needed grounding.
With those generalities out of the way lets identify the pin in and out of
the SlickSTART (SS1001)vibrator. I will not use the terms left and right.
IMPORTANT: Note that the SS1001 is not to be used with TCM/Bendix mags per
SL2-96 and L-1492. Instead SS 1002 is to be used. You can find SL2-96
through Google.
Pin VIN is the electrical supply into the unit. One easy way to feed this
pin is to connect a wire from the output side of the starter solenoid
through a 5 amp fuse to this pin. Then whenever you are feeding electricity
to the starter you are also feeding the SlickSTART vibrator. You can also
feed a light in the cockpit from this same solenoid connection that will
show that electricity is going to your starter. After the engine has started
and the starter key is released this light should go out telling you that
the starter solenoid is no longer sending electricity to the starter. (Note:
It is still possible for some malfunction of the starter itself to cause it
to remain engaged.)
Pin GND gets connected to a grounding screw on the retard breaker magneto
being fed by the vibrator.
Pin 1 gets connected to the P lead terminal of the retard breaker magneto
being fed by the vibrator. This is the wire that gets the high voltage
pulses to the primary circuit of that mag.
Pin 2 gets connected to the P lead of the non retard breaker magneto IF THAT
MAGNETO DOES NOT HAVE AN IMPULSE COUPLING. The purpose of this pin and wire
is to ground out the magneto that it is connected to so that it can not fire
an advanced (twenty some degrees before TDC) spark while the engine is
cranking. If the non retard breaker magneto has a properly functioning
impulse coupling then this wire is not needed.
Pin 3 gets connected to the retard breaker terminal of the magneto that is
so equipped. The function of this pin and wire is to tell Pin 1 to shoot the
juice only when the retard breaker points are open which will be near top
dead center. This provides the retarded spark which is desired while the
engine is cranking.
That is it. With the above info you can wire your system. You can switch
mags from side to side if you are more comfortable with the left and right
terminology where the retard breaker mag is usually on the left hand side or
you can leave the mags where they are and relable the wiring diagrams until
you are confident that you can wire it properly.
The wiring kit that came with your SlickSTART unit is helpful for the wiring
job, but is not mandatory.
While the Bendix book is not right on point for your system it may help you
understand the concept a little better. I don't have it in electronic form,
but if you will email me your snail mail address direct I will put a copy in
the mail to you.
Please let me know if I can be of further help.
OC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil K Clayton" <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Shower of Sparks installation help
> OC....thank you so much for your reply! You hit on the nature of my
> problems exactly! Sounds like you went round the same circle.
> (It doesn't help that I'm a Mech Engineer, convinced that anything
> electrical is actually magic).
>
> The used Lyc O-360-A1A engine I bought has the usual two mags, but oddly
> configured; the left mag has an impulse coupler, and the right mag has a
> "S-o-S" label. So that's problem #1 - they seem the "wrong" way round" or
> at least mutually exclusive. Nuckoll's S-o-S white-paper shows the usual
> OFF-L-R-Both-Start switch, but wired to the left mag as the vibrator mag.
>
> Second, I DO have Unison's Slickstart that you refer to, (for $360, gulp!)
> but as you say, the installation manual gives installation details as if
> you're replacing an original vibrator. Trouble is I'm not replacing
> anything. so the manual's obscure for my purposes. Also, the Slickstart
> doesn't have the simple "IN" & "BO" terminals, but 5 different terminals,
> so I'm having trouble translating what's what.
>
> I think it's probably simple, (they're only mags after all) but I've been
> nagging at it so long I can't see the wood for the trees now. I need
> someone who "knows" mags to slap me round the head and make me think
> straight.
>
> Your offer of "how to wire the Slickstart" is what I need.
> And yes, I am using the key ignition switch, more for nostalgic reason
> than anything else - it'as what I learned on (Piper). I guess I could
> scrap it, but I'm a long way along with the other wiring now.
> The Bendix booklet sounds like it might really help. Could I pls ask for a
> copy?
>
> Thanks for the rescue!
>
> Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Reference documents reorganization |
>
>
>One trick I use for searching your site, and others, is
>to use Google. Here's an example if I want to search
>for the word diode:
>
> site:aeroelectric.com diode
>
>The organization is great for when you are just browsing.
>
>Mickey
Thanks. It's at least a start. I have a LOT of work to do
yet to create some better indexing techniques than to simply
allow the reader to browse by file name. This is a learn-it-as-
you go process. If anyone had told me 10 years ago that I
would be trying to put my arms around 150 Meg of data with
only about half the planned works still unposted, I would
have found it difficult to believe. This website thingy is
a really powerful tool but it's not simple either!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginner circuits |
>
> Bob,
>
> Purchased a copy of 5th ed. Floyd. The cd has solutions for exercises in
>a password protected .zip file. Tried the publisher's website and several
>search engines to no avail. Any help you could offer on acquiring a password
>would be appreciated.
Shucks dude, you've jumped about 3 editions farther ahead than the
giveaway copies I've been buying. I wasn't aware that they'd expanded
their tools with CDs . . . neat idea but fraught with problems for the
second hand users. Wish I could help.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler lines as ground return |
On 6 Sep 2005, at 17:57, Scott Derrick wrote:
>
>
> Actually from everything I've read copper is much better than aluminum
> in the area of corrosion resistance. Much much better.
>
> In regards to using the oil lines as ground return, I've had about
> 2/3rds say yes, and 1/3rd say no...
>
> I also have had two different folks that are running with copper oil
> lines as ground returns for 5+ years.
>
That's like saying you aren't worried about engine failures because
you've never had one. Two people don't make a large enough sample
size to be able to say that the risk is zero.
A problem with starter current going through the oil line might not
be too likely, but if you have a problem it could easily lead to a
fire and loss of the aircraft. Is the problem you are trying to
solve serious enough that you are willing to risk losing the aircraft
to fix it?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Oil cooler lines as ground return |
Maybe the current will magnetize the suspended particulate in the oil to the
wall of the tubing and make for a longer time between oil changes??
:]
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Oil cooler lines as ground return
On 6 Sep 2005, at 17:57, Scott Derrick wrote:
>
>
> Actually from everything I've read copper is much better than aluminum
> in the area of corrosion resistance. Much much better.
>
> In regards to using the oil lines as ground return, I've had about
> 2/3rds say yes, and 1/3rd say no...
>
> I also have had two different folks that are running with copper oil
> lines as ground returns for 5+ years.
>
That's like saying you aren't worried about engine failures because
you've never had one. Two people don't make a large enough sample
size to be able to say that the risk is zero.
A problem with starter current going through the oil line might not
be too likely, but if you have a problem it could easily lead to a
fire and loss of the aircraft. Is the problem you are trying to
solve serious enough that you are willing to risk losing the aircraft
to fix it?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | revenson(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Noise Filter for 5 lead motor |
1.53 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO
I've got a 12VDC heater fan motor I'd like to quiet down at the source.
I read Bob's document on Radio Shack inductor/capacitor noise filters and appreciate
the simple, clear hookup diagrams. But in addition to a power lead and a
ground, this motor also has three additional leads, one each for low, medium,
and high speeds that go to the switch.
Would it do any good to use a filter on the 12v and ground leads yet ignore the
speed control wires?
Roger.
Also, Radio Shack has discontinued the 270-055 and 270-051 noise filters.
I've got a 12VDC heater fan motor I'd like to quiet down at the source.
I read Bob's document on Radio Shack inductor/capacitor noise filters and appreciate
the simple, clear hookup diagrams. But in addition to a power lead and a
ground, this motoralso has three additional leads, one each for low, medium,
and high speeds that go to theswitch.
Would it do any good to use a filter on the 12v and ground leads yet ignore the
speed control wires?
Roger.
Also,Radio Shack has discontinued the 270-055 and 270-051 noise filters.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for 5 lead motor |
>
>I've got a 12VDC heater fan motor I'd like to quiet down at the source.
>I read Bob's document on Radio Shack inductor/capacitor noise filters and
>appreciate the simple, clear hookup diagrams. But in addition to a power
>lead and a ground, this motor also has three additional leads, one each
>for low, medium, and high speeds that go to the switch.
>Would it do any good to use a filter on the 12v and ground leads yet
>ignore the speed control wires?
First, have you run this motor and confirmed that you truly
need a filter? Given that there are 3 speed control leads in
addition to a power lead, I'm thinking that the control leads
do not represent a high noise risk.
>Roger.
>Also, Radio Shack has discontinued the 270-055 and 270-051 noise filters.
Fooey.
You can purchase component inductors from folks like Jameco.
Go to Jameco.com and search on
Inductors, Toroid
You can assemble the inductors and capacitors into equivalents
of the Radio Shack parts. Packaging is always the hassle. If you
truly need a filter, I'd try a capacitor first. Something on the
order of 1000 uF per Amp of motor current draw. See
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T053/0977.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Question for Robert N. |
| From: | "Scott Derrick" <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
Robert,
Hows your feeling about using 1/2" copper oil lines from my engine to the
nose cooler as a ground return?
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question for Robert N. |
>
>Robert,
>
>Hows your feeling about using 1/2" copper oil lines from my engine to the
>nose cooler as a ground return?
It's not a "new" idea. I had some long-ez builders using an aluminum
vacuum line as a ground return about 15 years ago. It would be interesting
to see how many are still flying with that arrangement and what prompted
any changes.
I think the risks are low IF integrity of the electrical connections
are high. This means sweat soldered, large area joints that would
assure both mechanical and electrical integrity of the conduit.
The drawing at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures//Conduit_Gnd.pdf
illustrates some techniques suggested for getting high currents onto and
off of a copper conduit ground system. Similar techniques would apply
whether you ran wires or hot oil down the conduit.
Of course, the run of copper between electrical connections would have
to be similarly robust in terms of fluid tightness and electrical integrity.
Standard copper tube fittings sweat soldered together should do the job.
There are probably a trainload of prohibitions with foundations running
the gammut of regulatory mandates to sky-is-falling hysteria. But if you
can bolt a wing on correctly, one should be able to build a run of
copper that
has similar integrity for electrons and hydrocarbons.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | revenson(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for 5 lead motor |
Bob wrote previously:
First, have you run this motor and confirmed that you truly
need a filter? Given that there are 3 speed control leads in
addition to a power lead, I'm thinking that the control leads
do not represent a high noise risk.
Yes, I have run this fan motor, but only from the battery (engine not running):
Low, medium, and high fan speeds work just fine, but when switching past low,the
supercharger high manifold pressure light comes on and stays on.To get it off,
I have to pull the 9pin dsub off the supercharger controller. Once reconnected,as
soon as I start moving that heater switch past the low position, on comes
the light.My supercharger controller power is taken from the line side of a
breaker comingfrom the Aux battery, while the heater power is coming off the
other side (the load side)of the same breaker.
I've since removed the fan power and its 3 speed control wires well away from the
supercharger controller wires, as
well as moved the fan power source off the breaker near the supercharger controller
source,
but I get the same response.
Does this mean it's RFI coming from the fan motor (the motor case is plastic,
not metal)?
And is this a candidate for an inductor/capacitor filter near the motor?
Any other suggestions? Thanks. Roger.
Bob wrote previously:
First, have you run this motor and confirmed that you truly
need a filter? Given that there are 3 speed control leads in
addition to a power lead, I'm thinking that the control leads
do not represent a high noise risk.
Yes, I have run this fan motor, but only from the battery (engine not running):
Low, medium, and high fan speeds work just fine, but when switching past low,the
supercharger high manifold pressure light comes on and stays on.To get it off,
I have to pull the 9pin dsub off the supercharger controller. Once reconnected,as
soon as I start moving that heater switch past the low position, on comes
thelight.My supercharger controller power is taken from the line side of abreaker
comingfrom the Auxbattery, while the heater power is coming off the other
side (the load side)of the same breaker.
I've since removed the fan power and its 3 speed control wires well away from the
supercharger controller wires, as
well as moved the fan power source off the breaker near the supercharger controller
source,
but I get the same response.
Does this mean it's RFI coming from the fan motor (the motor case is plastic,
not metal)?
And is this a candidate for an inductor/capacitor filter near the motor?
Any other suggestions? Thanks. Roger.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "springcanyon" <springcanyon(at)mymethow.com> |
| Subject: | d-sub connection |
Hi Bob,
I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my
RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors.
Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as
there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be
a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Don Owens
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | d-sub connection |
Even when you can screw them together, it's a good idea to x-wrap them with
safety wire.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
springcanyon
Subject: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection
Hi Bob,
I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my
RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors.
Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as
there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be
a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Don Owens
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Plane Power 60 Amp Alternator |
Has anyone on the list bought the Plane Power alternator? Any comments?
http://www.plane-power.com/AL12-EI60.htm
12 volt, 60 amp, internally regulated alternator kit includes regulator,
overvoltage protection, brackets, pulley, mounting hardware and belt. Weighs only
6lb 15 oz. and has LV indication.
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: d-sub connection |
In a message dated 9/8/2005 11:48:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:
Even when you can screw them together, it's a good idea to x-wrap them with
safety wire.
Bruce
or my favorite: large scale shrink tubing
...Chrissi
_www.CozyGirrrl.com_ (http://www.cozygirrrl.com/)
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: d-sub connection |
"springcanyon" wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my
> RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors.
> Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as
> there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be
> a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Owens
>
>
Hi Don,
You can get the screw lock kits so that they can be screwed together.
see here http://www.mouser.com/catalog/623/863.pdf for example.
Bob White
--
http://www.bob-white.com
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon)
Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)GMAIL.COM> |
| Subject: | Crowbar OVM schematic version? |
Howdy Bob -
FYI (from a nitpickin' proof reader) - it seems that an older schematic
and BOM snuck back onto page 1 of the Crowbar OVM document (02/20/01):
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/crowbar.pdf
I dug out a schematic from 06/29/04, but I figured there might be an
even later revision to reflect Ken's contribution. No?
Thanks,
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Strobe noise on Piper Archer II |
I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a
whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers.
It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen
to the radio. I've read in the archives that
people have solved this problem with a capacitor
somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any
hints appreciated before we give it to the shop
for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a
thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in
my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210.
However my plane is 14 volts.
I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no
problem. True?
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
Real airplanes have 28v electrical systems. I know Bob is not a fan of 28v,
but I am. Your 70 Amp 28v alternator is the equivalent of a 140 Amp 14v
alternator.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Derrick
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system?
I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in
my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210.
However my plane is 14 volts.
I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no
problem. True?
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
>
>I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in
>my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210.
>
>However my plane is 14 volts.
>
>I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no
>problem. True?
It will probably work with a 14v regulator in 14v system but with
severely limited performance. I'd have to run one of these
puppies on a drive stand to see how bad it gets but I'm sure
you won't begin to get 60A from it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Mickey,
Has the audio system (I assume) always had this much noise, or is it
something that slowly has gotten worse, or could it's increase be
correlated to some service work that was done to the airplane (new
equipment added, etc.)?
I think I wouldn't really consider adding any bandaides (capacitor) to the
system, especially if it ever worked properly.
If the problem slowly crept up on you, it sounds typical of a symptom of
poor grounding - high resistance at a connection where should be low
resistance. Maybe a corroded joint. It might be reasonable to go around
to where the strobes are electrically connected to the airplane and
re-seat those connections. See if that has any effect. See if the strobe
power supply is grounded locally to the airframe instead of more directly
to the battery. If it's grounded locally, consider (temporarily at
least), running a well constructed ground wire from the strobe directly to
the battery. Or, as Bob often recommends, temporarily power the strobe
unit from a seperate battery.
Good luck!
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
>
> I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a
> whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers.
> It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen
> to the radio. I've read in the archives that
> people have solved this problem with a capacitor
> somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any
> hints appreciated before we give it to the shop
> for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a
> thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge.
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II |
>
>
>I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a
>whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers.
>It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen
>to the radio. I've read in the archives that
>people have solved this problem with a capacitor
>somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any
>hints appreciated before we give it to the shop
>for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a
>thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge.
First, try running the strobes from a pair of 6v
lantern batteries hooked in series or perhaps a small
motorcycle or garden tractor battery. If you're
working with an avionics shop, perhaps they have
a small bench supply you can used to power the strobes.
Hook the supply in right at the strobe supply and see
if the noise goes away.
If it does, this confirms that the noise is being
conducted out of the strobe supply on the +14v
line.
Try a fat electrolytic right across the +14v input
terminals to the strobes. Radio Shack has a 1000uF/
35v part 272-1019 that seems to come two in a package
for $1.69.
If these have a very marked effect, it may mean that
capacitors normally occupying this same position INSIDE
the supply have gone bad. You have an option of adding
new caps outside or fixing the supply . . . how old is
it?
If this has some effect but not enough, you may need to
add some inductance between the supply and the filter
caps. Review
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/RS_Noise_Filters.pdf
for COTS filters that have been useful in curing this
noise in the past. I'm told that RS no longer carries
these filters so you may have to fabricate with discrete
capacitors and inductor. Jameco.com has suitable inductors.
For a strobe supply I'd try their p/n 2320-H
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jon Woellhaf" <jonwoellhaf(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..."
Why not?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
Can a good alternator shop convert it to 14 volts pretty easily?
I had a 55 amp alternator on the plane previously and that was plenty...
Scott
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in
>>my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210.
>>
>>However my plane is 14 volts.
>>
>>I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no
>>problem. True?
>>
>>
>
> It will probably work with a 14v regulator in 14v system but with
> severely limited performance. I'd have to run one of these
> puppies on a drive stand to see how bad it gets but I'm sure
> you won't begin to get 60A from it.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
Wouldn't 28-volt systems require all your electrical components to be
built specifically for the aviation industry? Stuff like headlamps
and such. Heck, where do you find battery chargers that will charge
28-volt batteries? What do they cost?
28-volt systems allow you to run fewer amps through your wires, which
has certain benefits, I suppose, but I'm intending a 14-volt system
as standardized by the auto industry.
-Joe
On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:31 PM, Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..."
>
> Why not?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
28v is used in the trucking industry also. Nothing wrong with 14v, I just
like more power and I don't like my panel to go dim at night when I lower
the gear.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph
Larson
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system?
Wouldn't 28-volt systems require all your electrical components to be
built specifically for the aviation industry? Stuff like headlamps
and such. Heck, where do you find battery chargers that will charge
28-volt batteries? What do they cost?
28-volt systems allow you to run fewer amps through your wires, which
has certain benefits, I suppose, but I'm intending a 14-volt system
as standardized by the auto industry.
-Joe
On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:31 PM, Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..."
>
> Why not?
________________________________________________________________________________
Received-SPF: softfail (mta5: domain of transitioning trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt does
not designate 85.138.31.28 as permitted sender) receiver=mta5; client_ip=85.138.31.28;
envelope-from=trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt;
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Battery is not charging |
I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find strange when
I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I must purchase
a battery tender for it - already ordered it).
In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together with replacing
the battery once a year.
Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine (ROTAX
912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary investigations,
not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the battery. In following
flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still managing to maintain
the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio, XPDR, Intercom, GPS).
Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start the engine
but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same 12.6V, which confirmed
that the battery was not being charged by the engine generator. After
a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage went down to 10.4V and although
the engine kept running without any problems, when I decided to land I had all
the avionics off without turning them off. Conclusion: battery is not really
been charged by the engine!
After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing the regulator,
measuring the generator output and even checking generator cables resistance,
we didn't find the reason for the problem.
Help needed here! Any hints?
Thanks
Carlos Trigo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Battery is not charging |
Rotax offers an external alternator, designed to be used with the existing
generator, for the 912.
http://www.lockwood-aviation.com/store/product.php?productid=18751&cat=282&p
age=1
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging
I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find strange
when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I must
purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it).
In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together with
replacing the battery once a year.
Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine
(ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary
investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the
battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still
managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio,
XPDR, Intercom, GPS).
Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start the
engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same 12.6V,
which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the engine
generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage went down
to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any problems, when I
decided to land I had all the avionics off without turning them off.
Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine!
After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing the
regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator cables
resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem.
Help needed here! Any hints?
Thanks
Carlos Trigo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | mini jack source |
I'm looking for a source for a 1/8 inch stereo mini plug jack that can
be mounted in my metal panel and isolated from ground. I'm using it for
a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel. Currently I have a cheapo
Radio Shack jack installed and I can hear the strobes (power packs in
wing tips) pulsing when I turn on the high gain switch. I may have
another problem but I figure that until I get that jack isolated I
won't know. The jack I'm using is just barely long enough to make it
through the panel, so just adding washers to it isn't an option.
So, does anyone know where I can find a jack with isolating washers
that I can mount in my panel? Or, is there another way to skin this cat
that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel?
thanks,
Robert Dickson
RV-6A 130 hrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: mini jack source |
In a message dated 08-Sep-05 16:26:25 Pacific Standard Time,
robert@thenews-journal.com writes:
Or, is there another way to skin this cat
that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel?
Robert,
Have you tried duplicating the circumstances with the jack dismounted from
the panel? Does it cure the problem? If not, I would be skeptical that simply
isolating it from the panel will be the solution.
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: d-sub connection |
In a message dated 08-Sep-05 9:34:13 Pacific Standard Time,
springcanyon(at)mymethow.com writes:
I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my
RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors.
Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as
there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be
a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated.
Don,
I have come to like the AMP CPC (Circular Plastic Connector) connectors.
They mate, then a turn of the locking ring holds them together (like a bayonet
fastener). They come in straight inline configurations or flanged so one side
can be secured to the airframe. They also come in different pin types/sizes
(including the machined pins used in the D-sub connectors that Bob recommends),
and different pin counts. This site will get you started:
http://www.amp.com/prodnews.asp?id=298
Mouser, among others, have these.
Doug Windhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery is not charging |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hi Carlos,
I have a couple of ideas based on what you said..
Do you know if the system ever actually charged the battery - kept the bus
voltage above 14v? In other words, was the system wired correctly?
Please see my embedded comments/questions.
>
>
snip
> engine! After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables,
> replacing the regulator, measuring the generator output and even
> checking generator cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the
> problem.
>
When you say "measuring the generator output" what do you mean? With the
engine running? Where in the circuit, and under what conditions did you
check its function? Many alternators don't produce charging voltage at
idle RPM.
> Help needed here! Any hints?
>
If you have good components, and aren't certain that the charging system
ever actually worked correctly, I'd be suspect of it's
design/installation. If you don't have a schematic of the system, draw
one up - take a notepad, pencil and DMM to the hangar and doodle it out -
nothing fancy. Compare what's doodled to what's on one of the Bob's Rotax
diagrams. Even if the system is designed/installed okay, the exercise
will help you debug the system.
Does the design look like Z16? If the design and install look okay, take
your meter and start checking voltages at different points in the circuit
and making notes.
Does the system have an alternator disconnect relay? If yes, does it make
a clicking sound when you turn on the alternator switch (may click at the
same time as the battery relay).
When it clicks, do you get batter voltage to the control lead on the
regulator?
With everything turned on (doesn't matter if the engine is running) do you
have continuity between the output lead(s) on the alternator and the
batter (bus)?
> Thanks
> Carlos Trigo
>
>
Regards,
Matt-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: mini jack source |
To test your theory, you should remove the jack from the panel and attempt
to use it without it touching anything to eliminate the grounding
possibility.
Indiana Larry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Happiness: like a butterfly, when pursued,
is always beyond our grasp, but which,
if one sits quietly, may light upon you."
Nathanial Hawthorn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Dickson" <robert@thenews-journal.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source
> <robert@thenews-journal.com>
>
> I'm looking for a source for a 1/8 inch stereo mini plug jack that can
> be mounted in my metal panel and isolated from ground. I'm using it for
> a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel. Currently I have a cheapo
> Radio Shack jack installed and I can hear the strobes (power packs in
> wing tips) pulsing when I turn on the high gain switch. I may have
> another problem but I figure that until I get that jack isolated I
> won't know. The jack I'm using is just barely long enough to make it
> through the panel, so just adding washers to it isn't an option.
> So, does anyone know where I can find a jack with isolating washers
> that I can mount in my panel? Or, is there another way to skin this cat
> that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel?
>
> thanks,
> Robert Dickson
> RV-6A 130 hrs.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: d-sub connection |
I agree, the circular plastic connectors I used have given trouble free
service since 1997. They are not that hard to solder/crimp the wire to the
pins and then stick the pin down into the slot in the plastic. Just make
certain the pin "locks" down in the slot. Also a good ideal to get one of
the pin removal tools (get the cheap ones) or you can take the appropriate
size of brass tubing from your model store and made your own. Just need
something to press the retaining tabs down as you pull the pin out of its
slot - in the rare case you make a mistake{:>).
They are essentially weather proof and hold up well even in rain.
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: <N1deltawhiskey(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection
>
> In a message dated 08-Sep-05 9:34:13 Pacific Standard Time,
> springcanyon(at)mymethow.com writes:
> I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my
> RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors.
> Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as
> there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must
> be
> a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated.
> Don,
>
> I have come to like the AMP CPC (Circular Plastic Connector) connectors.
> They mate, then a turn of the locking ring holds them together (like a
> bayonet
> fastener). They come in straight inline configurations or flanged so one
> side
> can be secured to the airframe. They also come in different pin
> types/sizes
> (including the machined pins used in the D-sub connectors that Bob
> recommends),
> and different pin counts. This site will get you started:
>
> http://www.amp.com/prodnews.asp?id=298
>
> Mouser, among others, have these.
>
> Doug Windhorn
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PJ Seipel <seipel(at)seznam.cz> |
| Subject: | Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
Sure, but how much automotive stuff are you planning on using? Most
modern avionics take anything between 10 and 30 volts. 28v halogen
bulbs don't cost any more than the 12v version although they're less
common. Battery chargers are out there, try Concorde.
I'm curious, does anyone have any reason why 28v is not a good idea
besides you can't use 12v automotive parts? That's the only reason I've
ever heard as to why people prefer 12v.
PJ
40032
Joseph Larson wrote:
>
>Wouldn't 28-volt systems require all your electrical components to be
>built specifically for the aviation industry? Stuff like headlamps
>and such. Heck, where do you find battery chargers that will charge
>28-volt batteries? What do they cost?
>
>28-volt systems allow you to run fewer amps through your wires, which
>has certain benefits, I suppose, but I'm intending a 14-volt system
>as standardized by the auto industry.
>
>-Joe
>
>On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:31 PM, Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..."
>>
>>Why not?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
>
>
>Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..."
It shuts you out of using a wealth of automotive components
which are entirely suited for use in aircraft. 24 volt
batteries having the same ENERGY content have smaller
(lower a.h.) cells which combine with more cell interconnect
materials to reduce cranking efficiency compared with a 12v
battery. Weight savings is miniscule while cost of ownership
is much greater.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
>
>28v is used in the trucking industry also. Nothing wrong with 14v, I just
>like more power and I don't like my panel to go dim at night when I lower
>the gear.
More power to do what? The only 24 volt system I helpped
put in a long-ez was about 20 years ago when the builder
wanted electric heat in the cabin. We put a 24-volt
100A system in and he still didn't have all the heat he
needed.
A 14v, 60A system is good for 650W with charging reserves.
How much do you need that cannot be met with this source?
Dimming of the panel lights can be offset with REGULATING
dimmers like the ones we used to sell and now sold by
B&C.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gilles St-Pierre" <ranchlaseigneurie(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Battery is not charging |
Carlos
check your ground connectios and make sure every connections is in good
shape
gilles st pierre
>From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging
>Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:56:44 +0100
>
>
>
>I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find strange
>when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I must
>purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it).
>In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together
>with replacing the battery once a year.
>Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine
>(ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary
>investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the
>battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still
>managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio,
>XPDR, Intercom, GPS).
>Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start
>the engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same 12.6V,
>which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the engine
>generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage went down
>to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any problems, when I
>decided to land I had all the avionics off without turning them off.
>Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine!
>After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing
>the regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator
>cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem.
>
>Help needed here! Any hints?
>
>Thanks
>Carlos Trigo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery is not charging |
>
>
>I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find
>strange when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I
>must purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it).
>In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together
>with replacing the battery once a year.
>Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine
>(ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary
>investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the
>battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still
>managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio,
>XPDR, Intercom, GPS).
>Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start
>the engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same
>12.6V, which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the
>engine generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage
>went down to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any
>problems, when I decided to land I had all the avionics off without
>turning them off. Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine!
>After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing
>the regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator
>cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem.
But you may have found the problem. The Rotax has a permanent magnet
alternator that will not produce full output at less than about
5000 rpm on the crankshaft. When the alternator IS producing full
output, it must be regulated to some voltage between 13.8 and 14.6 volts.
You won't be able to confirm operation of the alternator and its
associated regulator without monitoring the voltage at (1) high
engine rpm and (2) with a fully charged battery. A small (18A)
alternator can be so heavily loaded by a discharged battery that
the bus voltage appears low and mimics a malfunctioning regulator/
rectifier.
Get the battery tender. Hook it up for 24 hours or more. Fly the
airplane while watching voltage and report your findings back
to us. It would also be helpful to have an alternator loadmeter
installed so that you can see if the alternator is "working hard"
or "broke".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system?
>
>28v is used in the trucking industry also. Nothing wrong with 14v, I just
>like more power and I don't like my panel to go dim at night when I lower
>the gear.
More power to do what? The only 24 volt system I helpped
put in a long-ez was about 20 years ago when the builder
wanted electric heat in the cabin. We put a 24-volt
100A system in and he still didn't have all the heat he
needed.
A 14v, 60A system is good for 650W with charging reserves.
How much do you need that cannot be met with this source?
Dimming of the panel lights can be offset with REGULATING
dimmers like the ones we used to sell and now sold by
B&C.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
>
>How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero
>
>Bruce
And just why do you suppose that is?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? |
Oh, the usual - commonality across production lines. And it's better. (grin)
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system?
>
>How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero
>
>Bruce
And just why do you suppose that is?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: mini jack source |
Hi Ron,
My my aren't you a pretty picture, NOT!
In light of your present employment I would suggest that while he's busy
rebuilding the nose, the plastic surgeon should give you a nice long pointy
beak so that you can snoop better.
Sorry to hear about the mishap but very glad your still around to make fun
of... {[;-)
August 22, 2005 - September 09, 2005
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-et