AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fp
April 06, 2006 - April 19, 2006
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Splicing
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>
>
> > Anything wrong with using machined pins for splicing 20-22AWG wires
> with a
>
> > heatshrink cover? Just seems neater and quicker than soldering or butt
> > splices..
>
>It works great. I learned that trick from Bob here on this
>list, or in his book - I can't recall which. It's a bit more
>expensive than soldering, but much faster and neater.
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 finishing
>
>
>--
>
>
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Hello Bob,
I must say the magic of antennas is a little lost on me so I was looking
at your COM and VOR antenna designs. I have a Bob Archer com antenna and
he talks about Vertial polarisation but your example shows both glued
down to a horizontal surface...Am I missing something?
I assume that one can't put both a VOR a COM antenna in the same
fiberglass wingtip?
Can one do the same with a much shorter (5"?) transponder antenna say on
the bottom of the rudder?
Us RV guys really don't like things hanging on the outside of fast
airplanes...:)
Thanks
Frank
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
> Hello Bob,
>
> I must say the magic of antennas is a little lost on me so I was looking
> at your COM and VOR antenna designs. I have a Bob Archer com antenna and
> he talks about Vertial polarisation but your example shows both glued
> down to a horizontal surface...Am I missing something?
The radiator part (the part of the antenna attached to the center
conductor of the coax feed line) should be as close to vertical as
possible. The VOR/LOC/GS antenna should be horizontal.
>
> I assume that one can't put both a VOR a COM antenna in the same
> fiberglass wingtip?
It is not a good idea. You want as much isolation as possible between
the two.
> Can one do the same with a much shorter (5"?) transponder antenna say on
> the bottom of the rudder?
The transponder antenna is actually 2.6" (6.5cm) long. That antenna you
do want to mount on the belly as it is prone to being shielded by other
things on the airplane. There should be nothing between the transponder
antenna and the RADAR site on the ground.
>
> Us RV guys really don't like things hanging on the outside of fast
> airplanes...:)
The airflow on the belly is already turbulent from mixing outflow
cooling air with the undisturbed air so putting antennas on the belly is
not going to have any effect on maximum speed. You should definitely
mount your transponder antenna on the belly far enough away from the
gear legs and exhaust pipes so they do not constitute a shield for the
signal.
Brian Lloyd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
Possibly because the pros and cons of that have been discussed at length
several times here Michael. Several folks related experiences with stuck
on automotive starters when I've brought up the subject. Nevertheless I
went with a 25 amp rated marine key starter switch which I believe is
less likely to cause problems than an additional small relay. A cheap 40
amp relay is not imune from sticking either in this kind of service. Got
to admit though my key switch will be a bear to change out compared to a
contactor or a small relay when/if it ever fails, and it cost more than
either.
Ken
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Outside of the usual bickering between you two, I have to say that George has
added one of the most useful pieces of information I have personally seen in
weeks, even if Bob did glaze over it below. The idea of replacing the big and
heavy starter relay with a very reliable Bosch style for 1/5th the price and
weight is an excellent idea when going with a starter that already has a solenoid
to handle the heavy lifting.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lessons Learned] Radios OFF during startup |
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: [OhioValleyRVators] Lessons Learned
>Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 06:33:51 -0000
>From: Rick Gray <rgray67968(at)aol.com>
>Reply-To: OhioValleyRVators(at)yahoogroups.com
>To: OhioValleyRVators(at)yahoogroups.com
>
>
> >From and 'unnamed source' (smile).
>Rick at the Buffalo Farm - read on:
>
>My new Rocket is a blast!
>
>I have to be careful to keep off the transmit button, so the Cessnas
>don't hear me giggle as I leap over them in the circuit.
>
>OK, maybe I slipped once or twice . . . :)
>
>The rocket is teaching me lots of lessons. Like: Don't start the engine
>with your radio on. I tried that last Sunday and was rewarded with a
>blank screen on the SL30. According to the helpful Garmin tech, the
>wiring in the radios will catch some, but not all voltage spikes, fuses
>don't help and the radios should be kept off during startup. I must
>have been distracted by that Cessna . . .
I'm sorry to hear of your experience but at the risk of starting
a whole new pot boiler, I really doubt that anything from your
startup stresses killed your radio. I'd REALLY like to talk with
the tech that repairs the radio to see if the ol' saw about
"the starter killed my radios?" is truly at work here. Everything
we've designed and qualified to for decades says it wont happen.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> Learned] Radios OFF during |
startup
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: [OhioValleyRVators] Lessons Learned] Radios |
OFF during startup
I guess that would mean that the $150 radio in my car is more robust
than the $3,500 radio in your airplane? I sure don't have an
avionics master switch in my car.
Dave Morris
At 09:38 PM 4/5/2006, you wrote:
>
>The rocket is teaching me lots of lessons. Like: Don't start the engine
>with your radio on. I tried that last Sunday and was rewarded with a
>blank screen on the SL30. According to the helpful Garmin tech, the
>wiring in the radios will catch some, but not all voltage spikes, fuses
>don't help and the radios should be kept off during startup. I must
>have been distracted by that Cessna . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Radios OFF during startup |
> >
> >The rocket is teaching me lots of lessons. Like: Don't start
> the engine
> >with your radio on. I tried that last Sunday and was rewarded with a
> >blank screen on the SL30. According to the helpful Garmin tech, the
> >wiring in the radios will catch some, but not all voltage
> spikes, fuses
> >don't help and the radios should be kept off during startup. I must
> >have been distracted by that Cessna . . .
What evidence do you have that a voltage spike caused the failure? Could
the thing simply have croaked?
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 750 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Re: [Fwd: [OhioValleyRVators] Lessons Learned] Radios |
OFF during startup
> I guess that would mean that the $150 radio in my car is more
robust
> than the $3,500 radio in your airplane? I sure don't have an
avionics
> master switch in my car.
Just for grins, I just went out to the garage and started my 1997
Dodge truck and my 2002 Altima, both with the radio on. Go try it on
your vehicle and tell me that your radio isn't switched out of the
circuit during the start cycle. Might not be....but mine were. There is,
of course, an ulterior motive to this behaviour....power to start when
in much colder climes. This is only presented as a point of interest,
not contention.
On another note, anyone ever look at the following technology?
http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/07/Jones.html
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radios OFF during startup |
> Learned] Radios OFF during startup
>
>I guess that would mean that the $150 radio in my car is more robust
>than the $3,500 radio in your airplane? I sure don't have an
>avionics master switch in my car.
>
>Dave Morris
Good question. The avionics master switch is still alive
and well in many venues but nobody I've come across can
explain the science or describe the repeatable experiment
that shows why it's 'needed'. It's easy to get folks
to worry about lots of things and then gather a following
that elects to err on the side of caution. The interesting
fact that never seems to carry much weight with the cautious
is that for more than 20 years, folks who qualify equipment
items to run on airplanes at least claim and most demonstrate
they can withstand everything the airplane can throw at it . . .
including transients on the bus due to starter operations.
When we're finished with run-of-the-mill DC power tests.
we bombard electrowhizies with as much as 200 volts/meter RF
interference of two or more kinds. And if that weren't enough,
we'll then hit all the i/o pins with ESD simulations followed
by indirect effects of lightning simulations that put 600 volt
pulses current limited by 10 to 25 ohm resistors into power lines
(24 to 60A potential current flow).
I've shepherded dozens of my own designs and designs of
others through these tests which are rigorous but not
difficult to pass. The idea that any modern piece of
equipment is fatally vulnerable to the inductive kick
of unknown (as yet to be quantified) nature from a
starter motor or contactor just doesn't track the science
that drives current requirements for certification.
Further, there are millions of examples of devices
powered by vehicular DC power systems of all kinds where
operators are NOT cautioned to turn of the device
before starting the engine . . . your car radio included.
Unfortunately, there are just enough anecdotes and
myths floating around to keep the faith in avionics
master switches alive and well. I've had storage
'scopes on dozens of airplanes in situations where
I've been able to watch the bus during startup. I've
never captured a 'spike' of significant amplitude
and certainly nothing that even approached test limits to
which we all subscribe.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Radios OFF during startup |
Is it possible that the radio was somehow affected by a short duration "low"
voltage as the engine drew massive current during start?
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alex
Peterson
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radios OFF during startup
-->
> >
> >The rocket is teaching me lots of lessons. Like: Don't start
> the engine
> >with your radio on. I tried that last Sunday and was rewarded with a
> >blank screen on the SL30. According to the helpful Garmin tech, the
> >wiring in the radios will catch some, but not all voltage
> spikes, fuses
> >don't help and the radios should be kept off during startup. I must
> >have been distracted by that Cessna . . .
What evidence do you have that a voltage spike caused the failure? Could
the thing simply have croaked?
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 750 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Radios OFF during startup |
Does the user guide (for any Garmin or other) actually say to have them
turned off during start?
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alex
Peterson
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radios OFF during startup
-->
> >
> >The rocket is teaching me lots of lessons. Like: Don't start
> the engine
> >with your radio on. I tried that last Sunday and was rewarded with a
> >blank screen on the SL30. According to the helpful Garmin tech, the
> >wiring in the radios will catch some, but not all voltage
> spikes, fuses
> >don't help and the radios should be kept off during startup. I must
> >have been distracted by that Cessna . . .
What evidence do you have that a voltage spike caused the failure? Could
the thing simply have croaked?
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 750 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Checkoway" <dan(at)rvproject.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radios OFF during startup |
> Is it possible that the radio was somehow affected by a short duration
> "low"
> voltage as the engine drew massive current during start?
That's what my GX60 suffers from occasionally. I've never seen my SL30 go
"blank" like the original poster mentioned, but my GX60 does from time to
time. When it happens, the COMM portion is fully functional, I just don't
see anything on screen. A quick off/on with the switch and it's back to
normal (yes, it does a full reboot). On other occasions the GX60 will
reboot during engine start.
I always assumed it was the low voltage that caused this. I've heard other
GX60 owners report similar behavior. Nothing else in the panel is affected,
and no, I don't have an avionics master (my system is an older revision of
Z-11).
FWIW, I have a Sky-Tec LS starter.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (851 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radios OFF during startup |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>> Learned] Radios OFF during startup
>>
>> I guess that would mean that the $150 radio in my car is more robust
>> than the $3,500 radio in your airplane? I sure don't have an
>> avionics master switch in my car.
>>
>> Dave Morris
>
>
> Good question. The avionics master switch is still alive
> and well in many venues but nobody I've come across can
> explain the science or describe the repeatable experiment
> that shows why it's 'needed'.
Oh, that one is easy Bob. It is convenient. Some aircraft have a LOT of
radios. My aztec has an audio panel, a GPS/comm, a nav-com, an RNAV
receiver, an ADF, a transponder, an EHSI, a horizontal gyro (separate
circuit from the EHSI, and a music radio. It is a pain the butt to turn
all those on/off switches. It is much more convenient to have one switch
to turn all that stuff on and off. Of course, that one switch can also
turn all that stuff off at the same time when I don't want it to.
When I did the e-bus in my Comanche 20 years ago I added a second switch
that would connect my e-bus (I called it the avionics bus then but it
also had the needle-ball on it too) to the backup battery in case the
main avionics bus switch failed. (At the time it was a SPDT center-off
switch -- yeah, I have learned something since then.)
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
>Subject: Re: Why use starter contactor?
>Possibly because the pros and cons of that have been discussed at length
>several times here Michael. Several folks related experiences with stuck
>on automotive starters when I've brought up the subject. Nevertheless I
>went with a 25 amp rated marine key starter switch which I believe is
>less likely to cause problems than an additional small relay. A cheap 40
>amp relay is not immune from sticking either in this kind of service. Got
>to admit though my key switch will be a bear to change out compared to a
>contactor or a small relay when/if it ever fails, and it cost more than
>either.
>Ken
Ken:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
My postulation is if you use a BIG FAT start button and no extra firewall relay/
solenoids/contactors, chance of starter run-on / spontaneous engagement is nil.
Has this happened in a car you know of? To the config I suggest in a plane?
Your comment about *several folks* who claim they had problems is great, but
with out details its like the OV alternator thing, just rumor or irrelevant.
There are reasons a starter can run-on. I suspect you are either talking a
old Bendix drive starters or OLD firewall Cessna or Piper firewall solenoids,
which do stick when they get old. Neither apply to our conversation.
People who switched to new starters have got run-ons because the OLD firewall
solenoid was retained and stuck; its NOT an issue of the starter itself.
This supports my claim that LESS IS MORE. Get rid of that old solenoid and
get a big 60 amp start button.
I researched this thoroughly. I talked to SkyTec. The chance of sticking starter
is next to nothing. I also asked about the no secondary solenoid and guess
what? They said its made that way and will work fine. Let's say you did get
a run-on, it would be during start, you would shut down. SkyTec shows how
to wire a run-on light if you like. Chance of it engaging in flight? never.
Skytec has more starters flying than anyone. I think they know what's up.
QUOTE:
What about the Bendix? Maybe it stuck?
**Since Sky-Tec starters do not use mechanical Bendix drives to actuate the
starter, this is actually nearly impossible for a Sky-Tec starter to keep itself
engaged with the aircraft ring gear. Sky-Tec starters are electromechanically
engaged therefore requiring voltage to engage the starter's drive pinion gear with
the ring gear. Without voltage, the pinion simply cannot remain in the flywheel.
A spring and a helical return will both force the drive pinion back out of the
ring
gear and into the rest position.**
Ref: http://www.skytecair.com/Cessna_Solenoids.htm
Cessna (mostly) and Piper, apparently have a history of Firewall Solenoids
sticking, so actually even a factory solenoid (relay) can stick. That is WHY
I suggest a big OLD fat start button, like a race car. (w/ catch diode of course)
All the $60,000-$200,000 Luxury and Sport cars are going to no key push
button start switches.
Here is some other good info from SkyTec:
Troubleshooting Diagram: guide to Gen & spacific (to run on) issues:
http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm
Here is two wiring diagrams from SkyTec:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm
Here is a guide to wiring, with specifics to starters:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_Experimental.pdf
To be fair to Bob, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Nothing WRONG with the
Z diagram xyz, just suggesting if you want a lean mean electrical system
with more than adequate or even superior reliability and safety, while
lowering weight and complexity, consider trashing the BIG fw contactor.
The next step is get rid of the BIG master contactor. You only need a
30-60 amp relay if you don't run the starter load through it.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Radios OFF during startup |
>
>Is it possible that the radio was somehow affected by a short duration "low"
>voltage as the engine drew massive current during start?
>
>Bevan
If that's the real cause, then the device has some serious deficiencies. Here's
a piece I did on DO-160 testing some years ago for a builder and updated this
morning for posting on my website at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/What's_all_this_DO160_Stuff_Anyhow.pdf
See paragraph (c)
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tom" <kesleyel(at)iowatelecom.net> |
I am using Microsoft Visio for the drawings of my electrical system. While
creating the symbols is fairly straightforward, I have not yet discovered
how to place the small blue "x" connection points where I need them. The
basic shapes come with them, but I need to place them at the end of a line,
such as a diode symbol. Also, how are the unneeded ones deleted when the
symbol is complete? Any help much appreciated.
Tom Barter
Kesley, IA
Avid Magnum O-320
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dsvs(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
Bob and Others
I need to purchase an airspeed switch that is closed when stationary and opens
at roughly 15 knots. An adjustable unit is fine as long as the adjustment point
can be set for fairly low (15-20 knot) range. Any idea of a vendor for this
device. ACS has only one and the adjustment point is above 80 knots. Thanks
in advance. Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Visio symbols |
> I am using Microsoft Visio for the drawings of my electrical system. While
> creating the symbols is fairly straightforward, I have not yet discovered
> how to place the small blue "x" connection points where I need them. The
> basic shapes come with them, but I need to place them at the end of a line,
> such as a diode symbol. Also, how are the unneeded ones deleted when the
> symbol is complete? Any help much appreciated.
Hi Tom,
I think this article will help you out.
http://www.2000trainers.com/printarticle.aspx?articleID=206
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Glide Slope Antenna |
Thanks, Bob.
RHDudley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Hi Bob,
>>Where would I find the GS antenna diagram that is referred to here?
>>
>>
>
> The diagram we've been discussing is Figure 13-13 in the
> 'Connection. Finding someplace to mount such a beast is the
> hard part. I think I'd go for the coupler approach. Or, if
> you have a fiberglass airplane, try sticking an 8" piece of wire
> into a BNC connector and let it dangle out the back of the
> GS receiver. When on the runway centerline, glideslope and
> localizer signals are huge. You're looking right down the
> "barrel" of a 5w transmitter from a couple miles away max.
> A wet string would probably get you a good enough signal.
>
>
> If a compromise antenna doesn't work, go for the coupler
> from http://www.chiefaircraft.com and others. Looks
> like this:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/CI_507.jpg
>
> I'd much rather install a coupler somewhere than try
> to find a 'nice' place to mount a stand-alone GS
> antenna.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>
> >From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
> >Subject: Re: Why use starter contactor?
>
> >Possibly because the pros and cons of that have been discussed at
> length
> >several times here Michael. Several folks related experiences with
> stuck
> >on automotive starters when I've brought up the subject.
> Nevertheless I
> >went with a 25 amp rated marine key starter switch which I believe is
> >less likely to cause problems than an additional small relay. A
> cheap 40
> >amp relay is not immune from sticking either in this kind of
> service. Got
> >to admit though my key switch will be a bear to change out
> compared to a
> >contactor or a small relay when/if it ever fails, and it cost more
> than
> >either.
> >Ken
>
> Ken:
>
> Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
>
> My postulation is if you use a BIG FAT start button and no extra
> firewall relay/
>solenoids/contactors, chance of starter run-on / spontaneous engagement is
>nil.
>
>Has this happened in a car you know of? To the config I suggest in a plane?
>
> Your comment about *several folks* who claim they had problems is
> great, but
>with out details its like the OV alternator thing, just rumor or irrelevant.
Wasn't rumor. Had many customers report the phenomenon and we demonstrated
it on the bench . . .
>
>
> There are reasons a starter can run-on. I suspect you are either talking a
>old Bendix drive starters or OLD firewall Cessna or Piper firewall solenoids,
>which do stick when they get old. Neither apply to our conversation.
Nope, we were talking about modern PM starters . . .
>
> People who switched to new starters have got run-ons because the OLD
> firewall
>solenoid was retained and stuck; its NOT an issue of the starter itself.
>
> This supports my claim that LESS IS MORE. Get rid of that old solenoid and
>get a big 60 amp start button.
Not so. "Run on" in the context of PM starters and airplanes had
nothing to do with the selection of contactors.
Unlike wound-field motors supplied on B&C (and perhaps other)
starters, the PM offerings by Skytec (and perhaps others) are
efficient GENERATORS of electrical power while the armatures are
spinning down. When the pilot releases the starter button after
the engine fires, connection between the starter motor and battery
was being opened just fine. However, IF the starter was wired for
external contactor, voltage being generated by the coasting armature
was still applied to the solenoid engagement windings thus keeping
the pinion gear engaged for some period of time (perhaps 2-5 seconds)
after the button was released. The starter's overrun clutch prevented
damage but it was obviously an undesirable operating quality.
One fix was to go to Figure Z-22 such that the starter's built
in contactor became the primary electrical switching device. The relay
allowed any starter switch selected by the builder to stay in place.
Adding the relay broke power to the solenoid's hold-coil and effected
immediate release of the pinion gear in spite of the armature's
spin-down voltage. Another option was described in October of 2004
when this sketch was published on my website:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/StarterWiring.pdf
Figure 3 suggests using the "I" terminal of the external contactor
to exert absolute control over the solenoid's hold coil.
Of course, the forth options is Figure 1, a 30A push button and
14AWG wire to replace the relay shown in Z-22 for what has been
described as the simplest approach. This approach is also electrically
acceptable but offers the least number of options for selection
of start switches. The "run-on" or delayed disengagement phenomenon
is unique to PM starters and has nothing to do with sticking contactors.
>
>
>I researched this thoroughly. I talked to SkyTec. The chance of sticking
>starter
>is next to nothing.
But not zero . . .
> I also asked about the no secondary solenoid and guess
>what? They said its made that way and will work fine. Let's say you did get
>a run-on, it would be during start, you would shut down. SkyTec shows how
>to wire a run-on light if you like. Chance of it engaging in flight? never.
>
> Skytec has more starters flying than anyone. I think they know what's up.
Yup, ask them about sticking contactors and they can accurately
report no big problems as will every other starter manufacturer.
Ask them about delayed disengagement or run-on of their starters
when wired like B&C starters, and they'll confirm what I've stated
above.
No rumors, hard repeatable experiments.
>
>
> QUOTE:
>
> What about the Bendix? Maybe it stuck?
>
>**Since Sky-Tec starters do not use mechanical Bendix drives to actuate the
>starter, this is actually nearly impossible for a Sky-Tec starter to keep
>itself
>engaged with the aircraft ring gear. Sky-Tec starters are
>electromechanically
>engaged therefore requiring voltage to engage the starter's drive pinion
>gear with
>the ring gear. Without voltage, the pinion simply cannot remain in the
>flywheel.
>A spring and a helical return will both force the drive pinion back out of
>the ring
>gear and into the rest position.**
This is true of every brand of starter using direct engagement of the
pinion gear by a solenoid that also happens to drive a set of contacts for
control of armature current.
>
> Ref: http://www.skytecair.com/Cessna_Solenoids.htm
>
>
> Cessna (mostly) and Piper, apparently have a history of Firewall Solenoids
>sticking, so actually even a factory solenoid (relay) can stick. That is WHY
>I suggest a big OLD fat start button, like a race car. (w/ catch diode of
>course)
The sticking contactors on production airplanes is a well known
phenomenon when OEM's were using the intermittent duty versions
of the RBM/White-Rogers/Stancore contactors. These looked
just like the battery contactor shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1.jpg
These contactors had large area, low pressure contacts
like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1a.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1b.jpg
. . . not the best way to control high inrush devices like
starters. In later years, the car guys showed us small-area,
high-pressure intermittent duty contactors like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s702-1l.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S702-1a.jpg
Contactor sticking was virtually eliminated for systems
where the battery was kept in good shape. The only cases
we've seen where an owner was able to weld a small-area,
high-pressure contactor was with a soggy battery that
barely managed to get the contactor closed but with
insufficient pressure to get good conduction, hence burned
and welded contacts.
We've seen starters wired with the big fat push button
(or Z-22 relay) weld the built-in contacts too. If the
battery is soggy or the engagement signal to the contactor
is tentative, welding risks go up markedly IRRESPECTIVE of
who's contactor is doing what to who's starter. I've had
several builders report this phenomenon where rapping the
contactor housing on the side of the starter with a
screwdriver handle would cause it to become unstuck.
>
>
>To be fair to Bob, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Nothing WRONG with the
>Z diagram xyz, just suggesting if you want a lean mean electrical system
>with more than adequate or even superior reliability and safety, while
>lowering weight and complexity, consider trashing the BIG fw contactor.
To be fair to me or anyone else, we need to be talking about
the same problem. The run-on problem described was identified
in a timely manner, demonstrated, explained, and fixed. It
had nothing to do with sticking contactors and was unique to
PM starters.
The sticking contactors of an earlier design was tolerated for
decades (from about 1946 through the mid 70's) because when a starter
contactor did stick, it was backed up by the battery master contactor.
While every airplane using the old style starter contactor suffered
the phenomenon, it wasn't a big deal. When the automotive designers
crafted the high-pressure design, it was welcomed by all.
> The next step is get rid of the BIG master contactor. You only need a
> 30-60 amp relay if you don't run the starter load through it.
Anyone is completely free to get rid of any parts they wish
and indeed many builders have done just that. The only thing
I'll suggest is that the decisions to do so exploit
the experience and thought processes behind 60+ years
aircraft electrical systems. An accurate sense of history
combined with an understanding of applicable simple-ideas helps us avoid
potentially unhappy and unintended consequences of "the next step."
If you're ready to hang your hat on an always hot, fat
feeder from battery to starter mounted contactor/solenoid,
keep in mind that the starter's built-in contactor can stick
too. Further, you loose pilot control over making the airplane's
electrical system max-cold. If those design goals are acceptable
then so be it. It's your airplane and it's experimental.
Fly in peace.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Radios OFF during startup |
Some folks have reported problems with their email clients recognizing
the address for the piece on DO-160 due to punctuation in the file title.
I've revised the file name and reposted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Whats_all_this_DO160_Stuff_Anyhow.pdf
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
John,
Thank you for sharing this info. It tracks with what we understand
about the huge list of variables that affect starter and associated
contactor performance. Bottom line is that ALL starters of ANY brand
are subject to undesirable behavior for a host of reasons. None
of these events needs to be more than a frustrating maintenance item
if we leave certain "Plan-B" options in place for dealing with them
if and when they arise.
Bob . . .
>
> TWIMC (Which is probaly only me),
>
>(1) Electrial Solenoid engaged starters,as used on Lycoming, Chevrolet,BMW,
>and Porsche, do stick.
>
>(2) Solenoid engaged starters are disengaged by a spring and an over running
>mechanism in the starter gear.
>
>(3) I have personally seen three out of the four named, stick .
>
>(4) They stick and continue to crank the engine, they stick and don't crank
>the engine, and all modes of stick in between.
>
>(5) They stick when they are new or old, clean or dirty but mostly they
>stick because they are misaligned or have not been lubricated.
>
>(6) One of these starters that fail in the "CRANK the engine mode" with the
>+12VDC wired directly to the solenoid has a great big wire as big around as
>your index finger HOT and you can't turn it off.
>
>(7) There are many light weight relays capable of eliminating this problem
>by attaching the +12VDC first to it and then on to the starter solenoid. No
>device that controls the starter directly through its solenoid control
>circuit can do this.
>
>(8) I have had multiple experiences with these type failures. Allow me to
>pass these experiences on to you and eliminate the time and aggravation it
>would take for you to accumulate them yourself. Use the information as you
>will.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Unlike wound-field motors supplied on B&C (and perhaps other)
> starters, the PM offerings by Skytec (and perhaps others) are
> efficient GENERATORS of electrical power while the armatures are
> spinning down. When the pilot releases the starter button after
> the engine fires, connection between the starter motor and battery
> was being opened just fine. However, IF the starter was wired for
> external contactor, voltage being generated by the coasting armature
> was still applied to the solenoid engagement windings thus keeping
> the pinion gear engaged for some period of time (perhaps 2-5 seconds)
> after the button was released. The starter's overrun clutch prevented
> damage but it was obviously an undesirable operating quality.
I found this problem another way. After installation of one of these PM
starters my Comanche got hard to start when warm where it hadn't been
before. I didn't notice because at the time my father was flying it more
than I was and had several incidents of almost running the battery down
trying to start the engine when it was hot (carbureted engine, not fuel
injection). This was doubly surprising as the engine was equipped with a
shower of sparks ignition system. It would fire but then wouldn't
'catch' and keep running when the start button was released. The engine
would spin down and seem to 'catch' just before it quit turning. It was
very perplexing.
(You have enough information to solve this puzzle but just for fun I
will post the real problem and the fix in the next message so you can
think about it for just a moment.)
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
OK, where was I ... oh yeah, the hard starting Comanche after installing
a PM starter.
It seems that someone had wired the start lead to the shower-of-sparks
system to the starter side of the start solenoid. When the start button
was release the EMF generated by the still-turning PM starter would hold
the shower-of-sparks relay in and that would continue to disable the
right mag and keep the left mag on the retard breaker but it wouldn't
provide enough voltage to get the shower-of-sparks vibrator to really do
its thing. When cold the engine would freewheel better when the start
button was released and the shower-of-sparks start relay would drop out
before the engine lost too much RPM and it would start fine.
When trying to start after just a bit of a cool down the engine was
extra tight and would not freewheel so the engine spun down before the
starter did.
The solution? Move the start lead for the shower-of-sparks system from
the starter side of the solenoid to the start button itself. Now the
power went away instantly when the start button was released and the
engine would catch and run just fine.
BTW, this problem drove me nuts for about 6 months until I finally
figured it out.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
Isn't it amazing how those simple-ideas stack up sometimes?
Bob . . .
>
>OK, where was I ... oh yeah, the hard starting Comanche after installing
>a PM starter.
>
>It seems that someone had wired the start lead to the shower-of-sparks
>system to the starter side of the start solenoid. When the start button
>was release the EMF generated by the still-turning PM starter would hold
>the shower-of-sparks relay in and that would continue to disable the
>right mag and keep the left mag on the retard breaker but it wouldn't
>provide enough voltage to get the shower-of-sparks vibrator to really do
>its thing. When cold the engine would freewheel better when the start
>button was released and the shower-of-sparks start relay would drop out
>before the engine lost too much RPM and it would start fine.
>
>When trying to start after just a bit of a cool down the engine was
>extra tight and would not freewheel so the engine spun down before the
>starter did.
>
>The solution? Move the start lead for the shower-of-sparks system from
>the starter side of the solenoid to the start button itself. Now the
>power went away instantly when the start button was released and the
>engine would catch and run just fine.
>
>BTW, this problem drove me nuts for about 6 months until I finally
>figured it out.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Checking out a radio installation |
----- Original Message ----- >
> I am at the stage where I want to make sure my radios and nav work before
> I
> put on the panel that makes getting at all my wiring and radio stack very
> difficult. In other words, I am at my garage and not near an airport.
There are planes flying over head -- right? You can listen in. You
should not transmit on a frequency where commercial traffic might hear and
possibly cause someone a problem. Usually there will be chatter going on
the CTAF 122.8. From the ground, anyone that would hear you would have to
be pretty much above you within a 10 mile radius but that could be more or
less depending if you are sitting in a valley or on a hill top.
>
> I want to order a hand held nav/com to test my Garmin SL 30. Is there a
> set
> procedure for this kind of thing. Can I just transmit on some obscure
> frequency and try and receive on the other?
That is how I first tested my 430 with a hand held radio, while
sitting on the ground. I did discover a wiring problem with my PTT. Glad I
figured it our before getting everything together.
I tested the NAV during flight testing Phase I.
>
Indiana Larry, RV7
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Headphones "auto-loading" circuit |
>
>Comments/Questions: I'm installing a PS1000II intercom in a 172M, picking
>up the phone hi line at the ship's auxiliary phone jack. This jack grounds
>the hi side through a 560 ohm resistor if a phone is not plugged in.
>What's the purpose of this resistor, and do I need to keep this peculiar
>jack for the pilot's phone jack?
>
>Thanks.
I can only guess. The the designer of the system probably
believes its a bad thing to leave the output of the
amplifier unloaded. He may have some experience that suggests
constant loading is a good thing . . . or he may have heard
a rumor about it and decided that the CYA approach to design
was more comfortable.
I suspect that the auto-loading feature is not necessary.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
Just another data point in this discussion: Many years ago (make
that many, many years...), when I was at GM and working with Delco-
Remy The subject of stuck solenoids was known. The system was
designed so that all the components were sized appropriately and the
battery would run down before any of the other devices, like the
starter or wire would fail. The idea was that the starter would
stick so the driver would turn the key off and it would revert to
cranking a dead engine. If it stuck and the driver didn't know
enough to shut the engine off then the starter would likely fail
along with the overrunning clutch. Not pleasant. On my
experiemental I used a "big fat" starter push-button switch wired
directly to the solenoid on the B+C series-wound starter solenoid.
the starter is powered through the master contactor. I admit it was
tempting to run the starter hot from the battery, but I finally
backed off from that concept. I would guess that if the starter
stuck on and the engine was shut off the battery would run down
before anything bad would happen. If it sticks with the engine
running I guess the only detection would be by looking at the battery
voltage (no ammeter installed). The good thing is that this type of
failure occurs on the ground; the bad thing is that this stuff is
very expensive.
And then for redundancy I simply wired two "master" relays off the
battery - one "master" to power the big stuff, including the starter,
and one "avionics" relay to power the radios. I probably should have
wired one of the radios off the master.
Gary Casey
ps: I just fired the engine for the first time and the performance
of the B+C starter was very impressive. I do have a firewall-mounted
battery, but with an IO-540 with 10:1 compression and a composite
prop, the starter spun the engine with AUTHORITY and there was not
even a hint of cogging over TDC. The starter was also very quiet,
implying that the drive gear is well-designed and all the alignments
were very well done. I was impressed.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>
>
>Just another data point in this discussion: Many years ago (make
>that many, many years...), when I was at GM and working with Delco-
>Remy The subject of stuck solenoids was known. The system was
>designed so that all the components were sized appropriately and the
>battery would run down before any of the other devices, like the
>starter or wire would fail.
Sizing of components to enhance predictability and therefore
push failures off toward more acceptable ends is one of
many tools in the system designer's toolbox. The exercise
you've cited is generally applied when rudimentary
techniques are not applicable. For example, there's no
fuse or circuit breaker that might be expected to bring
a runaway starter to heel. So the FMEA drives designers
to consider limiting the ability of a system fault to
bring the whole to ruin. Limiting battery size such that
sticking contactor events would come to graceful conclusion
was a valid approach.
In the aircraft world, we might utilize this approach with
better assurance of success because we have regulatory
control over the components used. Unlike cars in the pubic
domain, we have better assurances that an airplane won't
get fitted with a bigger battery and that airplane looses
benefits of the original designed in limits.
> The idea was that the starter would
>stick so the driver would turn the key off and it would revert to
>cranking a dead engine. If it stuck and the driver didn't know
>enough to shut the engine off then the starter would likely fail
>along with the overrunning clutch. Not pleasant.
Suppose we had the task of mitigating this event today?
For under $1 I can buy a microprocessor that can be
programmed to watch start signal from the panel, compare
with power applied to the starter, watch battery voltage
for potentially damaging attempts to start with a soggy
battery, and I might even filter the start signal through
the processor so that a dirty start switch and/or tentative
operation of the switch doesn't tease the starter contactor
into welding. If any undesired condition is detected,
I at least have an opportunity to annunciate it to the
operator and in some cases terminate the start attempt
-AND- annunciate the condition.
> On my
>experiemental I used a "big fat" starter push-button switch wired
>directly to the solenoid on the B+C series-wound starter solenoid.
>the starter is powered through the master contactor. I admit it was
>tempting to run the starter hot from the battery, but I finally
>backed off from that concept. I would guess that if the starter
>stuck on and the engine was shut off the battery would run down
>before anything bad would happen.
Had a Glassair stick an always hot starter wire and the brand
new RG battery was cranking merrily away long enough for
the builder to get out, remove the cowl and disconnect
the battery. The starter survived (although no doubt
short on future service life). The builder subsequently
moved his starter feed to the downstream side of the
battery master contactor.
> If it sticks with the engine
>running I guess the only detection would be by looking at the battery
>voltage (no ammeter installed). The good thing is that this type of
>failure occurs on the ground; the bad thing is that this stuff is
>very expensive.
I was at OSH one year when a story flashed around the field
about one of the airshow performers having landed and discovering
that his starter and ring gear were all chewed up. The off-hand
diagnosis was that high g-loading during his performance caused
a tentative closure and subsequent welding of his starter
contactor. I would have given $100 to get my hands on all the
parts and to see how they were installed.
I would guess that it's far more likely that the starter
stuck on initial cranking of the engine and the pilot
was mentally concentrating on the performance task before
him. He might have made good use of the $1 processor.
>And then for redundancy I simply wired two "master" relays off the
>battery - one "master" to power the big stuff, including the starter,
>and one "avionics" relay to power the radios. I probably should have
>wired one of the radios off the master.
. . . or supplied a normal-feed diode from main bus to
the avionics bus and you could now call it an e-bus.
>Gary Casey
>
>ps: I just fired the engine for the first time and the performance
>of the B+C starter was very impressive. I do have a firewall-mounted
>battery, but with an IO-540 with 10:1 compression and a composite
>prop, the starter spun the engine with AUTHORITY and there was not
>even a hint of cogging over TDC. The starter was also very quiet,
>implying that the drive gear is well-designed and all the alignments
>were very well done. I was impressed.
That starter was in development for years before it hit the market.
Early endurance issues were pretty much limited to high stress
points in the castings which were identified and fixed early on.
We were on a trip to CA to participate in Voyager support activities
at Mojave when Bill stopped by Robinson to meet their president
and discuss starter issues.
I believe to this day, the B&C starter still goes out on 100% of
Robinson products. Starters are pulled off of Robinson helicopters
when they come back for 2,000 hour overhaul. This is one of
VERY few instances where a manufacturer has an orchestrated
opportunity to track a product's field performance. Many returned
starters look like junk yard dogs having suffered the rigors
of various duties in the field. However, when opened up wear rates
indicate that the starters would easily run another 2,000
hours without further attention. Continental gave up trying
to 'kill' a B&C starter after 5,000+ starts on the test stand.
Odds of you being a satisfied user of this starter are very good
but I applaud your decision to run the starter downstream of
the battery master contactor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? (sky is falling) |
>From: "John D. Heath" <altoq(at)cebridge.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why use starter contactor?
>-- TWIMC (Which is probaly only me),
>(1) Electrical Solenoid engaged starters, as used on Lycoming,
>Chevrolet,BMW, and Porsche, do stick.
Some people have real bad luck; My experience is the opposite and
the engineers told me the SkyTec will not sick (see their web site).
Any of your claimed occurrences happen with a SkyTec or B&C? No
>(2) Solenoid engaged starters are disengaged by a spring and an over
>running mechanism in the starter gear.
Yes A big fat spring and mechanical advantage plus back spin
.... assists in the retraction.
>(3) I have personally seen three out of the four named, stick .
You said that already, twice now. You left off all kinds of info.
Lycoming? Bendix style? SkyTec? B&C? More info please.
Lycomings usually had old Bendix style starters made by
Prestolite or Delco. Bendix does not equal SkyTec
>(4) They stick and continue to crank the engine, they stick and don't
>crank the engine, and all modes of stick in between.
Look you have an agenda, but you provided ZERO information. I
have been flying for 12,000 hours and have worked on cars for 30
years. Yes starters stall? So what? Can you tell me what that has to
do with anything. When I was flying Freight or giving flight instruction,
I was flying a fleet of over 30 planes in numbers. All the problems you
claim are hard to believe and sound sensational and emotional.
I NEVER, NEVER HAD A STARTER STICK. That does not mean
much, but lightweight car type starters on airplanes have only
been around less than 20 years. However in that 20 years the issue
of starter STICK is old news. I know it is hard to get people such as
yourself, whose mind is made up, to be convinced, but if you are
honest with yourself and look at the facts and service history of
modern starters, you will see your opinion of the past does not
represent the now or future. If it makes you happy, add extra stuff.
>(5) They stick when they are new or old, clean or dirty but mostly they
>stick because they are misaligned or have not been lubricated.
WE GET IT, THEY (what ever THEY are) Stick. I just ask you give
some examples with details. My guess they don't apply to a SkyTec
or B&C style starters.
>(6) One of these starters that fail in the "CRANK the engine mode" with
>the +12VDC wired directly to the solenoid has a great big wire as big
>around as your index finger HOT and you can't turn it off.
So what do the FEW MILLION cars and trucks do all over the world.
What is you point? Did you think of turning the ENGINE OFF?
I can see you are convinced that every car on the road is WRONG.
OK that is cool, but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole
hill. The Robinson R22 helicopter is wired w/o a FW relay.
>(7) There are many light weight relays capable of eliminating this
>problem by attaching the +12VDC first to it and then on to the starter
>solenoid. No device that controls the starter directly through its
>solenoid control circuit can do this.
WHAT! Dude I could not disagree more. Prove it :-) The reason for
those 3/4 Lb solenoids on airplanes is they had BENDIX starters with
no integrated solenoid or contactor (relay). First they did not need a
solenoid because they where SPUN out when the starter was spun.
They where the only kind found on most GA planes up to 20 years
ago. They are notorious for sticking. The Bendix starters NEEDED
a firewall relay/contactor; that is why we still have them today.
Big firewall solenoids are also problematic.
The reason for using the firewall solenoid like Bob calls out and
Vans aircraft calls for is standardization with old starters. BOB
and Van's aircraft do not control the type of starter the builder uses,
and so the OLD WAY works with everything, old and new. CLEARLY
you don't believe me, CALL SKY TEC starters. They will calm you
down and straighten you out. Things have changed.
It is OK, many people like the security blanket of the extra switch.
>(8) I have had multiple experiences with these type failures. Allow me
>to pass these experiences on to you and eliminate the time and
>aggravation it would take for you to accumulate them yourself. Use the
>information as you will.
OH MY GOSH, you have repeated yourself 5 times. You think THEY
stick. OK,
How about some specific info: Starter model, Aircraft and what the
problem was (starter, firewall solenoid). You don't give any more info
than you have seen a starter stick. A SkyTec? B&C? Doubt it.
Sorry I hear no facts and really doubt it applies to SkyTec.
No offense but I think you exaggerate a lot in your mind. However I
respect your fear of starters. I have researched this and you are
living in the old days of starters.
Your comments give no basis in facts. First a firewall solenoid is
another thing to fail. Second the solenoid and contactor on the starter
is very capable with out help. You are adding a device that can stick
on its own, more than the starter itself.
Also if a starter sticks on start, SHUT DOWN the engine. There is
no need to panic and make this a big deal. Does a black cloud follow
you and it rains on all you vacations? I mean your story of impending
disaster is really over stated when it comes to starters.
My opinion from experience is starters rarely stick and modern non
Bendix ones less then never. From taking engineers at the biggest
starter maker (SkyTec) and by their web site, QUOTE:
"Since Sky-Tec starters do not use mechanical Bendix drives to actuate
the starter, this is actually nearly impossible for a Sky-Tec starter to keep
itself engaged with the aircraft ring gear."
Also Robinson R44 helicopter is certified with NO firewall starter
Solenoid. (Good enough for the FAA)
>(9) (Even you did not want to keep it in the records)
Boy I guess you told me. Please reply with real information. I just
don't believe anything you said has to do with a SkyTec, B&C,
NOT: Prestolite; Electrosystems; Lamar; Delco.
Again Murphy's law but I think with your luck you better stay on the
Ground. Lol :-)
Cheers George.
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? (good points Bob) |
Bob:
Very good points about PM starters spin down and engagement. I
knew this and even SkyTec addresses this in their documentation.
You say 2 to 5 seconds?
>From http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm
Complaint: After start button is released, the starter stays engaged
for nearly a second before releasing?
Question: Does it stay engaged only for 1/2 to 2 seconds?
Answer: This is NORMAL operation for a permanent magnet
power is removed by releasing the key/start button, a permanent
magnet motor will actually provide power to itself as it winds-
down and will keep the starter drive engaged for about a half-
second until it loses sufficient RPM to fully disengage.
I never thought about it, so good point.
I personally have a SkyTec HT model (wire wound) Hi-torque
starter. It does not have the run-on characteristic or idiosyncrasy
like the PM model. I guess the PM is OK with it, but agree it is
not the way I would prefer, so a FW contactor may be a good
idea for this application.
SkyTec also has a NEW in-line unit which they claim is the #1
selling starter. http://www.skytecair.com/
PM starters have the advantage in lower cost and lower weight. I
had a Skytec PM on my RV-4 for 900 hours before I sold the plane,
however I ran it with a secondary contactor in the firewall, with no
problems. Besides the 1/2 to 1 second run on they use more current
than wire wound starters. The Pro is they are cheaper and lighter.
There are Pros and Cons to everything, however with the point you
make about PM starters, the FW contactor is probably more of a plus.
Also you have piece of mind of not having a big gauge wire HOT
all the time, which is a concern to many.
The Pro of leaving the solenoid off is less weight, wiring and cost,
albeit small. With a wire wound starter the spin down is not an issue.
Nothing works in all situations and there is rarely an absolute
perfect solution. As I said before the FW solenoid works in most
cases and has advantages, however leaving it off is an alternative
option that the individual should explore and consider.
For me with a wire wound starter, the extra PARTS did not make it
into my design, and since my starter is not permanent magnet (PM)
I can GET AWAY with it with little down side. However I do it with
eyes wide open, knowing the Pros and Cons.
Good debate and points. I understand your position Bob.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
>
>Bob and Others
>I need to purchase an airspeed switch that is closed when stationary and
>opens at roughly 15 knots. An adjustable unit is fine as long as the
>adjustment point can be set for fairly low (15-20 knot) range. Any idea
>of a vendor for this device. ACS has only one and the adjustment point is
>above 80 knots. Thanks in advance. Don
Recall that dynamic pressure (pitot pressure, or "q") varies
as the square of velocity. At 200 mph you get 20" of water
pressure. So for 1/10th that velocity or 20 MPH, you get
1/100th the pressure or 0.2" of H20. 20Kts would be 23
MPH so .2" is right in the ballpark.
That is an exceedingly small pressure to sense. I doubt
that anyone has a switch that will operate directly
from that kind of pressure.
What are you wanting to do with it? Parhaps there's
a more rugged and less expensive way to get at the
functionality.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
Bob,
The switch is recomended by Avidyne for use with their TCAS systems. It is
to take the device out of ground mode and into airborne mode. I used to fly
a piper twin that had the same type of switch to start the "air hobbs"
meter. BTW Avidyne does not have a source, that is why I am hoping that you
had one. Thanks. Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Air Speed Switch
>
>Bob and Others
>I need to purchase an airspeed switch that is closed when stationary and
>opens at roughly 15 knots. An adjustable unit is fine as long as the
>adjustment point can be set for fairly low (15-20 knot) range. Any idea
>of a vendor for this device. ACS has only one and the adjustment point is
>above 80 knots. Thanks in advance. Don
Recall that dynamic pressure (pitot pressure, or "q") varies
as the square of velocity. At 200 mph you get 20" of water
pressure. So for 1/10th that velocity or 20 MPH, you get
1/100th the pressure or 0.2" of H20. 20Kts would be 23
MPH so .2" is right in the ballpark.
That is an exceedingly small pressure to sense. I doubt
that anyone has a switch that will operate directly
from that kind of pressure.
What are you wanting to do with it? Parhaps there's
a more rugged and less expensive way to get at the
functionality.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
There are definatly industrial switches that will reliably switch on
0.2" WC...Trouble is the diaphram will be about 4 inches in diameter.
Definatly not a lightweight compact component!...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Air Speed Switch
-->
>
>Bob and Others
>I need to purchase an airspeed switch that is closed when stationary
>and opens at roughly 15 knots. An adjustable unit is fine as long as
>the adjustment point can be set for fairly low (15-20 knot) range. Any
>idea of a vendor for this device. ACS has only one and the adjustment
>point is above 80 knots. Thanks in advance. Don
Recall that dynamic pressure (pitot pressure, or "q") varies
as the square of velocity. At 200 mph you get 20" of water
pressure. So for 1/10th that velocity or 20 MPH, you get
1/100th the pressure or 0.2" of H20. 20Kts would be 23
MPH so .2" is right in the ballpark.
That is an exceedingly small pressure to sense. I doubt
that anyone has a switch that will operate directly
from that kind of pressure.
What are you wanting to do with it? Parhaps there's
a more rugged and less expensive way to get at the
functionality.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
>
>Bob,
>The switch is recomended by Avidyne for use with their TCAS systems. It is
>to take the device out of ground mode and into airborne mode. I used to fly
>a piper twin that had the same type of switch to start the "air hobbs"
>meter. BTW Avidyne does not have a source, that is why I am hoping that you
>had one. Thanks. Don
Hmmmm . . . Frank knows of some devices with that sensitivity.
As one might expect, it's pretty big. How about an RPM switch
set at something like 1500 rpm. You could even put a timer
in the loop so that the air mode happens after say 30 seconds
above 1500. This would let you do mag-chex, etc without triggering
the air mode. Signal would come from the tach output on an ignition
or p-lead on mag.
Have you called Avidyne?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
Called Avidyne, they say buy from Cirrus. Cirrus has one but will not sell
it to home builders. Still looking for a Cirrus repair facility that will
sell one. I,m running P-mags so I have two seperate tach hall effect sensors
built in. Was planning on using both to run seperate tach outputs, just
because I have two instruments that will show RPM. Where do I get an RPM
switch? Thanks. Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Air Speed Switch
>
>Bob,
>The switch is recomended by Avidyne for use with their TCAS systems. It is
>to take the device out of ground mode and into airborne mode. I used to
fly
>a piper twin that had the same type of switch to start the "air hobbs"
>meter. BTW Avidyne does not have a source, that is why I am hoping that
you
>had one. Thanks. Don
Hmmmm . . . Frank knows of some devices with that sensitivity.
As one might expect, it's pretty big. How about an RPM switch
set at something like 1500 rpm. You could even put a timer
in the loop so that the air mode happens after say 30 seconds
above 1500. This would let you do mag-chex, etc without triggering
the air mode. Signal would come from the tach output on an ignition
or p-lead on mag.
Have you called Avidyne?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
At 07:37 PM 4/8/2006, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>The switch is recomended by Avidyne for use with their TCAS systems. It is
>to take the device out of ground mode and into airborne mode. I used to fly
>a piper twin that had the same type of switch to start the "air hobbs"
>meter. BTW Avidyne does not have a source, that is why I am hoping that you
>had one. Thanks. Don
Velocity has one, it's pretty inexpensive but works fine. I think
it's an industrial part adapted from a clothes dryer.
There's a nice (much more expensive) one available from:
Airspeed Switch
Value Engineered Products
3541 Old Conejo Road, Ste #117
Newbury Park, CA 91320
(805) 499-1959
(805) 499-1955
email: vep1(at)pacbell.net
www.veproducts.com
Part #654A53.2
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
> The switch is recomended by Avidyne for use with their TCAS
systems.
> It is to take the device out of ground mode and into airborne mode.
Sure beats me whay they didn't just use a GPS signal to run the
system...sorta like the setting for a KLN series GPS that only starts
timing above 30kts....say, use a $GPRMC string, and parse out the
speed with a PIC and some code (or a BASIC stamp) and use
that to drive a relay.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
Why don't you just buy a cheap microswitch and keep sticking larger
and larger surface area on it until it triggers at the desired speed
while it's being hung out the window of your car?
Dave Morris
At 09:45 PM 4/8/2006, you wrote:
>(Corvallis)"
>
>There are definatly industrial switches that will reliably switch on
>0.2" WC...Trouble is the diaphram will be about 4 inches in diameter.
>Definatly not a lightweight compact component!...:)
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:52 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Air Speed Switch
>
>-->
>
>
> >
> >Bob and Others
> >I need to purchase an airspeed switch that is closed when stationary
> >and opens at roughly 15 knots. An adjustable unit is fine as long as
> >the adjustment point can be set for fairly low (15-20 knot) range. Any
>
> >idea of a vendor for this device. ACS has only one and the adjustment
> >point is above 80 knots. Thanks in advance. Don
>
> Recall that dynamic pressure (pitot pressure, or "q") varies
> as the square of velocity. At 200 mph you get 20" of water
> pressure. So for 1/10th that velocity or 20 MPH, you get
> 1/100th the pressure or 0.2" of H20. 20Kts would be 23
> MPH so .2" is right in the ballpark.
>
> That is an exceedingly small pressure to sense. I doubt
> that anyone has a switch that will operate directly
> from that kind of pressure.
>
> What are you wanting to do with it? Parhaps there's
> a more rugged and less expensive way to get at the
> functionality.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ivorphillips" <ivor(at)ivorphillips.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
Try http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/subRangeAction.do?cacheID=ukie
It works well as a stall warner, If you reverse the Inlet pipe it will
work as a pressure switch, And its ajustable!
Ivor phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ivorphillips" <ivor(at)ivorphillips.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/initSession.jsp?goto=/rswww/subRangeAction.do&catoid=-1600769365&store=uk
>
> It works well as a stall warner, If you reverse the Inlet pipe it will
> work as a pressure switch, And its ajustable!
The previous link didnt seem to work, But this one should!
Ivor Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Benjamin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9mond?= <benjamin.fremond(at)wanadoo.fr> |
Hi all,
I build a Dyn'Aero MCR Sportster kit : this is a two seats carbon epoxy
aircraft inspired from Michel Colomban's Bambi. It is Rotax 912 powered,
and Z-16 wired. First flight expected in a few weeks ! Two years ago,
before reading "The AeroElectric Connection" and subscribing to this list,
I would never have thought of wiring it myself. And this is done ! And for
the moment, in my garage, everything works well ! Many, many thanks to Bob
Nuckolls and all the contributors of the list !
In this aircraft, the aluminium panel is electrically isolated from the
airframe, due to the rubber shock-mounts and the composite structure.
I don't know whether the cases of my VHF (Microair M760), transponder
(Filser TRT600) and intercom (Flightcom 403 mc) are all internally grounded
or not (to the avionics ground bus, via their respective D-sub connectors
and harnesses) but if only one does, the panel itself is actually grounded
too, via its case, and possibly tiny internal connections.
Is it then mandatory (or facultative) to add a big wire between the panel
and the forest-of-ground-tabs ? My concerns are, in this order, security,
protection of expensive avionics and noise.
Any advice appreciated.
Thanks,
Benjamin Fremond
Rennes, France
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
DonVS wrote:
>
>Bob,
>The switch is recomended by Avidyne for use with their TCAS systems. It is
>to take the device out of ground mode and into airborne mode. I used to fly
>a piper twin that had the same type of switch to start the "air hobbs"
>meter. BTW Avidyne does not have a source, that is why I am hoping that you
>had one. Thanks. Don
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:52 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Air Speed Switch
>
>
Don,
I'm using an air switch from conrad electronics, and it does close
(adjusted) with 45 kts (part #185990), however they have a smaller one
too, check that
<http://www1.uk.conrad.com/scripts/wgate/zcop_uk/~flNlc3Npb249UDkwX0NPUF9VSzpDX0FHQVRFMDc6MDAwMC4wMTA1LmE2YThiYzliJn5odHRwX2NvbnRlbnRfY2hhcnNldD1pc28tODg1OS0xJn5TdGF0ZT04NDQxMjQ4MTA=>
and below you have a list with even smaller one (part # 185981).
It seems they are from Micro Pneumatic Logic and run under product spec
MPL-503
Hope it helps
Werner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
Wouldn't a switch on the landing gear be easier and more reliable?
Ken
Dave Morris \"BigD\" wrote:
>
>Why don't you just buy a cheap microswitch and keep sticking larger
>and larger surface area on it until it triggers at the desired speed
>while it's being hung out the window of your car?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
At 05:38 AM 4/9/2006, you wrote:
>
>Wouldn't a switch on the landing gear be easier and more reliable?
>Ken
Depending on the geometry of the landing gear it may not be possible,
unless you're talking about dragging a feeler on the ground. And in
that case, no, I think an airspeed switch would be simpler and more reliable.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>I was at OSH one year when a story flashed around the field
>about one of the airshow performers having landed and discovering
>that his starter and ring gear were all chewed up. The off-hand
>diagnosis was that high g-loading during his performance caused
>a tentative closure and subsequent welding of his starter
>contactor. I would have given $100 to get my hands on all the
>parts and to see how they were installed.
>I would guess that it's far more likely that the starter
>stuck on initial cranking of the engine and the pilot
>was mentally concentrating on the performance task before
>him. He might have made good use of the $1 processor.
Bob:
>I would guess that it's far more likely that the starter
>stuck on initial cranking of the engine and the pilot
>was mentally concentrating on the performance task before
>him. He might have made good use of the $1 processor.
Don't you there's a good chance the firewall solenoid was mounted
in a manner that positive G's caused it to close. This is common on
acro planes with firewall contactors mounted where pos G's close them.
Van's aircraft found this and than recommended the contactor be mounted
sideways. Well that also turned out to be a bad idea. Because the solenoid
Van's sells is not made for sideways mounting, the solenoid galled and
failed.
The ultimate solution was to mount the start solenoid so Positive G's
would keep the contacts open, since negative G's are less critical,
the way to mount was with the metal cap down (on typical contactor).
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1144596827-336-39&browse=electrical&product=start-sw
(as shown)
Here is some more goodies from SkyTec's site:
As far as unknown run-on? starter backdriving. Why not
install a run-on light if possible (think it applies to HT model):
http://www.skytecair.com/images/warning%20lights%202.JPG
http://www.skytecair.com/images/Starter_RunOn_Doc.pdf
(also see note below on Robinson HT skytec starter)
How to wire a starter push button:
http://www.skytecair.com/images/ST2_Wiring.pdf
Interesting SkyTec standard or replacing B&C on Robinson Helicopters?
http://www.skytecair.com/images/HT%20Robinson%20Convert.pdf
Also the new SkyTec NL starter NEEDS a firewall solenoid:
http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_diag.htm
(No choice, you must use a FW solenoid with the new NL starter)
New NL starter, cool animation on reset of shear pin
http://www.skytecair.com/NL%20Shear%20Pin.htm
http://www.skytecair.com/Lycoming.htm
Interesting note on shower of sparks and helicopter wiring:
http://www.skytecair.com/Helicopter_wiring.htm
(some one commented on a problem, I think this is relative)
George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
You might take a look at this one:
http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=634-0005&SEARCH=6753%2DAEJA%2DA000&ID=&MPN=6753%2DAEJA%2DA000&DESC=6753%2DAEJA%2DA000
I believe this is the one that Microair uses with their transponders to switch
them out of standby when the aircraft reaches a specific speed.
Good luck!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27151#27151
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry Ford" <psychden(at)sonic.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
Take a look at the World Magnetics line available thru Digikey at www.designflexswitches.com . There's a new Goldtech line that looks promising for the application. This also looks favorable for a pitot based "squat" switch or a gear warning sensor based on airspeed. The previously available switches were either normally open (PSF102), weren't sensitive below 2" H20 (PSF 103). This new switch appears to be able to handle switching loads for the landing gear solenoid in the application where you would prevent gear retraction for airspeeds below 70 knots (3.159" H20) with the switch in series. I've been waiting for something like this! What do you gurus think? Larry Ford Glasair I RG N149LF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Panel grounding |
>=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9mond?=
>
>Hi all,
>
>I build a Dyn'Aero MCR Sportster kit : this is a two seats carbon epoxy
>aircraft inspired from Michel Colomban's Bambi. It is Rotax 912 powered,
>and Z-16 wired. First flight expected in a few weeks ! Two years ago,
>before reading "The AeroElectric Connection" and subscribing to this list,
>I would never have thought of wiring it myself. And this is done ! And for
>the moment, in my garage, everything works well ! Many, many thanks to Bob
>Nuckolls and all the contributors of the list !
>
>
>In this aircraft, the aluminium panel is electrically isolated from the
>airframe, due to the rubber shock-mounts and the composite structure.
>
>I don't know whether the cases of my VHF (Microair M760), transponder
>(Filser TRT600) and intercom (Flightcom 403 mc) are all internally grounded
>or not (to the avionics ground bus, via their respective D-sub connectors
>and harnesses) but if only one does, the panel itself is actually grounded
>too, via its case, and possibly tiny internal connections.
>
>Is it then mandatory (or facultative) to add a big wire between the panel
>and the forest-of-ground-tabs ? My concerns are, in this order, security,
>protection of expensive avionics and noise.
If you never grounded it, as long as all other grounds get back
to the single point firewall ground, you're not likely to perceive
any problems with respect to noise or other functionality. However,
as a matter of practice in big airplanes, we BOND large hunks of
'floating' metal to heavier ground structures, mostly for lightning
stroke issues. It's a toss up. Of course one never expects to get
hit by the big one but when and if it does happen - See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Anatomy_of_a_Lightning_Strike.pdf
Then likelihood of your electronics surviving (or at least
mitigating damage) goes up if you put a hefty ground conductor
from panel to firewal. I'd suggest a 10AWG with its own bolt
on the panel and a ring terminal on the other end to take it
to the 5/16 brass firewall passthru bolt.
The fact that all other grounds go to this same point means
that you'll have no ground-loop generated noises in spite of
the fact that multiple systems share common grounds at both
ends (panel and firewall).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl> |
| Subject: | Air Speed Switch |
World Magnetics would seem to make a useful switch?
See http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1703.pdf
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
Larry Ford wrote:
>
> This also looks favorable for a pitot based "squat" switch or a gear warning
sensor based on airspeed.
> ...
> What do you gurus think? Larry Ford Glasair I RG N149LF
I think that I have been annoyed with every kind of landing gear warning
system I have ever used. Piper had their automatic system that put the
gear down when you slowed down and that just about drove everyone nuts.
The only system I have really liked is to do my GUMP check twice: once
on downwind to get all the stuff done and again on final to make sure I
didn't forget anything. If on instruments putting the gear down at the
FAF usually sets my descent rate to the runway.
I know, it's not high tech. OTOH it is KISS.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
List,
Some of my avionics have molex connectors and I know Bob is an advocate of
wire support just outside or as part of the crimp. The molex pins for the
20-22 awg wiring seem awfully fragile. the crimps comprise two parts, which I
assume are to grip the wire and then the insulation. However, these appear
flimsy and would seem prone to vibration damage. Unlike D-Subs, they do not have
a
cover with secondary support. Am I worrying about nothing or is there
something else I'm missing ? Any advice always a plus, and thanks...
Jerry Cochran
RV6a.. Close...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Overvoltage, faulty switch |
Since my first flight of my RV-9A in January, I've been plagued with
over-voltage alarms.
I've been through the alternator field circuit several times, re-seating
fast-on terminals. This always seemed to fix the problem for several
operating hours.
On Friday, I was flying over the mountains when I had an alarm again, so
I shut the alternator off and began an in-flight diagnostic.
On the ground, my inspection revealed that I have a bad S700-2-10 switch
(my Master Switch).
All of the fast-on terminals are riveted in place on this particular
switch, and the rivets were quite loose, making the connections
intermittent and resistive.
My short term fix in flight was to wiggle the terminals by reaching
under the panel with my fingers.
I've contacted B&C for a replacement, and I've offered to send the bad
one back to them for analysis.
Has anyone else seen this problem?
Vern Little
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Switch |
Operating temperature range is a problem unless you have a stable
environment to put it in. Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message ----- >
> Take a look at the World Magnetics line available thru Digikey at
> www.designflexswitches.com . There's a new Goldtech line that looks
> promising for the application. This also looks favorable for a pitot based
> "squat" switch or a gear warning sensor based on airspeed. The previously
> available switches were either normally open (PSF102), weren't sensitive
> below 2" H20 (PSF 103). This new switch appears to be able to handle
> switching loads for the landing gear solenoid in the application where you
> would prevent gear retraction for airspeeds below 70 knots (3.159" H20)
> with the switch in series. I've been waiting for something like this! What
> do you gurus think? Larry Ford Glasair I RG N149LF
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
A dump of what I think I know and some vaguely suspicions--
Stuck Starters--The starter motor pinion is 1.2 inch in diameter, the ring gear
is about 12 inches in diameter--a 1:10 ratio. The starter (non-geared type) turns
at several thousand RPM to turn the engine at several hundred RPM. When the
engine is running at maybe 4000 RPM, an engaged pinion would turn the starter
at 40,000 RPM.
1) Is this even possible?
2) Since a PM starter would be a generator, what would be the effect?
3) Would not a pilot have any way to know this?
Contactors Generally--The Stancor White Rogers etc. B&C was a wimpy return spring
because a beefy return spring would require too much power to hold compressed.
I suspect the thing will re-close at only a few G's. Bob N. had access to
a G-force test rig. Please Bob can you run some tests for us? A Kilovac EV200
would be good too. A shake table would yield good data too.
Starting Contactors Specifically--I side with Jet Pilot George. A 20A pushbutton
switch is simple, reliable, lightweight...and heck if it sticks the button won't
pop back out.
Consideration of contact-arcing prevention and transient voltages need to be addressed,
too. There are big sparks to lasso.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27318#27318
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
My extremly limited knowledge of stuck starters comes from a friend who
flew 250 miles at night in a C172 with the starter engaged the whole
way...I was amazed...And so was the owner at the repair bill!
I do like the simple warning light idea wired to the starter side of the
contactor and will be retrofitting a 'Radio Shaft' mini 12V LED to my
panel
Frank
RV7a...Almost at paint stage.
A dump of what I think I know and some vaguely suspicions--
Stuck Starters--The starter motor pinion is 1.2 inch in diameter, the
ring gear is about 12 inches in diameter--a 1:10 ratio. The starter
(non-geared type) turns at several thousand RPM to turn the engine at
several hundred RPM. When the engine is running at maybe 4000 RPM, an
engaged pinion would turn the starter at 40,000 RPM.
1) Is this even possible?
2) Since a PM starter would be a generator, what would be the effect?
3) Would not a pilot have any way to know this?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Overvoltage, faulty switch |
>
>Since my first flight of my RV-9A in January, I've been plagued with
>over-voltage alarms.
>
>I've been through the alternator field circuit several times, re-seating
>fast-on terminals. This always seemed to fix the problem for several
>operating hours.
>
>On Friday, I was flying over the mountains when I had an alarm again, so
>I shut the alternator off and began an in-flight diagnostic.
>
>On the ground, my inspection revealed that I have a bad S700-2-10 switch
>(my Master Switch).
>
>All of the fast-on terminals are riveted in place on this particular
>switch, and the rivets were quite loose, making the connections
>intermittent and resistive.
>
>My short term fix in flight was to wiggle the terminals by reaching
>under the panel with my fingers.
>
>I've contacted B&C for a replacement, and I've offered to send the bad
>one back to them for analysis.
>
>Has anyone else seen this problem?
Lots of people have had this and similar problems. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>
>A dump of what I think I know and some vaguely suspicions--
>
>Stuck Starters--The starter motor pinion is 1.2 inch in diameter, the ring
>gear is about 12 inches in diameter--a 1:10 ratio. The starter (non-geared
>type) turns at several thousand RPM to turn the engine at several hundred
>RPM. When the engine is running at maybe 4000 RPM, an engaged pinion would
>turn the starter at 40,000 RPM.
>
>1) Is this even possible?
For a short period of time . ..
>2) Since a PM starter would be a generator, what would be the effect?
All starters have over-run clutches to prevent the engine from driving
the starter. While the pinion is indeed spinning fast, the starter
is turning MUCH slower.
>3) Would not a pilot have any way to know this?
If it's an electrical 'stick' a light will tell you that
it's happening. A mechanical stick generally goes unnoticed.
>Contactors Generally--The Stancor White Rogers etc. B&C was a wimpy return
>spring . . .
Don't understand the reference to B&C. They
don't sell a starter contactor with a "whimpy
return spring" . . .
> . . . because a beefy return spring would require too much power to
> hold compressed. I suspect the thing will re-close at only a few G's. Bob
> N. had access to a G-force test rig. Please Bob can you run some tests
> for us? A Kilovac EV200 would be good too. A shake table would yield good
> data too.
Spring rates are selected for trade offs for pull-in voltage,
contact opening force and contact spreading velocity. Once a contactor
is energized, the holding force on the seated plunger is huge.
Spring rates are not a consideration for energy required to
KEEP the contactor closed, only voltage required to get it
closed in the first place.
I have tested the S-W-R contactors on the centrifuge and was able
to close a continuous duty contactor (light spring) at about
4-5 g's. Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for
battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading
is not a matter for consideration.
An intermittent duty S-W-R contactor wasn't available to me
for testing but one might safely assume that the springs
are stronger and might take more g-force to close them. But
this begs the REAL question . . . why would anyone use
a S-W-R contactor for a starter contactor in the first place?
The problems cited by Skytec for replacing starters on older
airplanes focused on intermittent duty versions of the S-W-R
contactor used on tens of thousands of older airplanes
originally fitted with wound field starters . . . demonstrably
gentler on a starter contactor but STILL prone to sticking.
When the wound-field starter was replaced with a PM machine,
inrush currents went up by as much as 2 times that of
conditions prevailing when the S-W-R designs were fitted
to those airplanes decades ago.
The sad fact was a recommendation to replace the S-W-R,
high area, low pressure contactor with a high-dollar, Eaton-CH
6041H series contactor. These are fine, mil-spec contactors
but completely unnecessary.
We've discussed the advantages of the newer low-area,
high-pressure starter contactors used in the automotive world
for decades. This is the style of contactor that was offered
by the B&C in their original starter installation kits
and later by the AeroElectric Connection when we had the
parts business. It's been used on millions of cars having
PM starters . . . while it can STILL stick due to external
effects of soggy battery or tentative control signals, the
overall service life of this device has been satisfactory
and cost of ownership is very attractive.
This modern starter contactor will not be closed by g-loads
any of us hope to experience and would probably pull the
wings off before the contacts close. Further, if one installs
the S702-1 style contactor on the firewall as recommended,
orientation of the plunger motion is such that you would
have to fly into a mountainside to effect an unintended
closure of the starter contactor.
The whole g-loading concerns for starter contactors
thing was a tempest in a teapot from the get-go. It's easily
analyzed, understood and DESIGNED out by judicious
selection of modern, low cost contactors.
>Starting Contactors Specifically--I side with Jet Pilot George. A 20A
>pushbutton switch is simple, reliable, lightweight...and heck if it sticks
>the button won't pop back out.
>
>Consideration of contact-arcing prevention and transient voltages need to
>be addressed, too. There are big sparks to lasso.
Yup, the S702-1 and it's close cousins have slain these
dragons too. Contact spreading velocity is fast enough to
keep arcing to a satisfactory level and transients were
never a threat to contactors . . . but the S702-1 comes
with it's spike catcher built right in.
The Kilovac and 6041H contactors are truly fine devices
and there are cases where their application makes good
sense . . . but they to0 have their vulnerabilities
and limitations. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/6041_Contactor_Failure.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/Kilovolt_Contactor_Lightning_Damage.jpg
These discussions have been long on hip-shot recommendations
based on ill-conceived worries and short on systems integration
analysis based on design goals for low cost of ownership,
failure tolerant design and an understanding of all the
ingredients in the recipe for elegant solutions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
for these before I put a big effort into this.
Here are the specs:
14 volts
480 cranking amps
8.8 amp-hours
2.7 pounds (Yes, that is right.)
10 year warranty (prorated)
Completely sealed battery
As safe as lead acid or NiCad (Yes, they really are as safe. That is why
they are so expensive.)
Built-in electronic monitoring system warns of over-voltage,
under-voltage, over heating, or internal battery fault.
That is all the good news. The downside is that they will cost about
$475. I'm not sure how many folks would want a 10 year battery (at
least) that weighs about 1/3 as much as an "ordinary" battery, but costs
four times as much.
The specs above are real. I have personally tested these batteries
and they do, indeed, perform this well, so that is not an issue. I'm
going to make one for myself. The question is, will folks buy them if I
produce them?
Let me know if you think you would be interested in such a high-tech
battery at this cost. Again, just forget everything you know about
batteries and assume the specs I've given are correct.
Thanks in advance,
Bill Dube'
PS
These batteries are the ones I'm putting in my bike at the moment.
http://www.killacycle.com
With this sort of hobby, I always have my finger on the pulse of
battery technology. These particular batteries are not only perfect for
my drag bike, they happen to be perfect for an airplane because they are
so safe (but they are expensive.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Bill Dube wrote:
>
> I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
> long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
> cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
> for these before I put a big effort into this.
Very cool. Still lead-acid? I couldn't really tell from your web site.
But, no, I probably wouldn't spend $475 on a battery.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Bill,
My first thought was no way would I put $950 into a dual battery system,
weight advantages or no.
But when I start to consider that over a 10 year period, I will have spent
that amount (not considering present value issues) to annually replace one
of my batteries (double the amp hours, triple the cranking amps, almost 6
times the weight), it becomes a little more intriguing.
I am sure others will have several other, and perhaps more meaningful
questions, but here are mine:
What is the residual voltage at the stated cranking output?
What is the residual voltage for the quoted amp-hours?
What would be the consequences of increasing the amp-hour rating about
double? For a battery dependant airplane, amp-hours is like fuel in the
tank.
What is your 10 yr life span based on? Is that the life span if only used
for starting? For me to consider these, they would have to be more than
just a starting battery; they need to be capable of keeping me going after
the engine has started. What would be the lifespan if used as I would need
them to be used?
Also, guarantees are only as good as the organization behind them; after
undergoing some unplanned experiences with "experimental" engines, I would
be skeptical there.
Regards, Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov>
Sent: Monday, 10 April, 2006 11:57
Subject: AeroElectric-List: (Almost) perfect airplane battery
>
>
> I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
> long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
> cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
> for these before I put a big effort into this.
>
> Here are the specs:
>
> 14 volts
> 480 cranking amps
> 8.8 amp-hours
> 2.7 pounds (Yes, that is right.)
> 10 year warranty (prorated)
> Completely sealed battery
> As safe as lead acid or NiCad (Yes, they really are as safe. That is why
> they are so expensive.)
> Built-in electronic monitoring system warns of over-voltage,
> under-voltage, over heating, or internal battery fault.
>
> That is all the good news. The downside is that they will cost about
> $475. I'm not sure how many folks would want a 10 year battery (at
> least) that weighs about 1/3 as much as an "ordinary" battery, but costs
> four times as much.
>
> The specs above are real. I have personally tested these batteries
> and they do, indeed, perform this well, so that is not an issue. I'm
> going to make one for myself. The question is, will folks buy them if I
> produce them?
>
> Let me know if you think you would be interested in such a high-tech
> battery at this cost. Again, just forget everything you know about
> batteries and assume the specs I've given are correct.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> PS
>
> These batteries are the ones I'm putting in my bike at the moment.
> http://www.killacycle.com
>
> With this sort of hobby, I always have my finger on the pulse of
> battery technology. These particular batteries are not only perfect for
> my drag bike, they happen to be perfect for an airplane because they are
> so safe (but they are expensive.)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MWilli7119(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
of course if the battery is indeed the one that someone sent me a link to
the FAQ's say that it can only be charged by its charging system.. how much does
that weigh and can it be charged by alternator?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Ordinary charging system. 14.4 volts max.
You've never heard of these unless you are in the battery industry.
Bill Dube'
MWilli7119(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>of course if the battery is indeed the one that someone sent me a link to
>the FAQ's say that it can only be charged by its charging system.. how much does
> that weigh and can it be charged by alternator?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
At room temperature the voltage will sag to about 8 volts at the full
cranking current. Warmer is better. Colder is worse. The difference is
not huge.
The voltage during discharge is quite stable, as is the internal
resistance.
The cost will scale directly with amp-hrs as will the cranking amps.
The cycle life is about 10 times that of lead-acid.
It sounds like most folks don't put much value on a long warranty from a
small (ie "garage") company. I'll probably not bother to do such a long
warranty because it doesn't add to the marketability and adds
significantly to my headaches when folks abuse the product.
Bill Dube'
Doug Windhorn wrote:
>
>Bill,
>
>My first thought was no way would I put $950 into a dual battery system,
>weight advantages or no.
>
>But when I start to consider that over a 10 year period, I will have spent
>that amount (not considering present value issues) to annually replace one
>of my batteries (double the amp hours, triple the cranking amps, almost 6
>times the weight), it becomes a little more intriguing.
>
>I am sure others will have several other, and perhaps more meaningful
>questions, but here are mine:
>
>What is the residual voltage at the stated cranking output?
>
>What is the residual voltage for the quoted amp-hours?
>
>What would be the consequences of increasing the amp-hour rating about
>double? For a battery dependant airplane, amp-hours is like fuel in the
>tank.
>
>What is your 10 yr life span based on? Is that the life span if only used
>for starting? For me to consider these, they would have to be more than
>just a starting battery; they need to be capable of keeping me going after
>the engine has started. What would be the lifespan if used as I would need
>them to be used?
>
>Also, guarantees are only as good as the organization behind them; after
>undergoing some unplanned experiences with "experimental" engines, I would
>be skeptical there.
>
>Regards, Doug
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Dube" <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, 10 April, 2006 11:57
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: (Almost) perfect airplane battery
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
>>long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
>>cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
>>for these before I put a big effort into this.
>>
>> Here are the specs:
>>
>>14 volts
>>480 cranking amps
>>8.8 amp-hours
>>2.7 pounds (Yes, that is right.)
>>10 year warranty (prorated)
>>Completely sealed battery
>>As safe as lead acid or NiCad (Yes, they really are as safe. That is why
>>they are so expensive.)
>>Built-in electronic monitoring system warns of over-voltage,
>>under-voltage, over heating, or internal battery fault.
>>
>> That is all the good news. The downside is that they will cost about
>>$475. I'm not sure how many folks would want a 10 year battery (at
>>least) that weighs about 1/3 as much as an "ordinary" battery, but costs
>>four times as much.
>>
>> The specs above are real. I have personally tested these batteries
>>and they do, indeed, perform this well, so that is not an issue. I'm
>>going to make one for myself. The question is, will folks buy them if I
>>produce them?
>>
>> Let me know if you think you would be interested in such a high-tech
>>battery at this cost. Again, just forget everything you know about
>>batteries and assume the specs I've given are correct.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>>PS
>>
>> These batteries are the ones I'm putting in my bike at the moment.
>>http://www.killacycle.com
>>
>> With this sort of hobby, I always have my finger on the pulse of
>>battery technology. These particular batteries are not only perfect for
>>my drag bike, they happen to be perfect for an airplane because they are
>>so safe (but they are expensive.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Bill
In some respects these fit my requirements as I'm using two 9 AH
batteries at about $100. ea now. They are about 8 lbs each and I don't
need much reserve capacity with two alternators. However I'm expecting
several years service from these and would not spend that much
additional money for the weight savings and additional performance. Also
I've learned that if something is really that good it will usually be
put into volume production and become dramatically cheaper ;) I agree
that a long warranty doesn't mean much to me as even good size companies
restructure pretty quickly if they have a serious warranty issue these days.
Ken
Bill Dube wrote:
>
> I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
>long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
>cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
>for these before I put a big effort into this.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
>
> I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
>long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
>cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
>for these before I put a big effort into this.
>
> Here are the specs:
>
>14 volts
>480 cranking amps
>8.8 amp-hours
>2.7 pounds (Yes, that is right.)
>10 year warranty (prorated)
>Completely sealed battery
>As safe as lead acid or NiCad (Yes, they really are as safe. That is why
>they are so expensive.)
>Built-in electronic monitoring system warns of over-voltage,
>under-voltage, over heating, or internal battery fault.
>
> That is all the good news. The downside is that they will cost about
>$475. I'm not sure how many folks would want a 10 year battery (at
>least) that weighs about 1/3 as much as an "ordinary" battery, but costs
>four times as much.
>
> The specs above are real. I have personally tested these batteries
>and they do, indeed, perform this well, so that is not an issue. I'm
>going to make one for myself. The question is, will folks buy them if I
>produce them?
>
> Let me know if you think you would be interested in such a high-tech
>battery at this cost. Again, just forget everything you know about
>batteries and assume the specs I've given are correct.
If my e-bus loads say I want to carry an 18 a.h. battery then your
proposed weight is 5.4# and indeed about 1/3rd that of a run-of-the
mill SVLA battery. So the question does become a matter of spending
about 12x as much to save on 10# of weight over a period of 10 years.
Will your proposed electronics keep track of and annunicate
the battery's present capacity? I've suggested that 'premium'
batteries may have a less than stellar return on investment
if the owner/operator has to purchase and periodically use
test equipment to track the battery's condition for the purpose
of changing it out when capacity falls below operator selected
minimums.
Suggest you start with customers who fly revenue generating aircraft.
If you can deliver 3 a.h. per pound of battery at 12v then it works
out to 1.5 a.h. per pound on a 24 volt battery. Weight savings on
and existing 25 a.h., 24-volt design at 56 pounds could be on the
order of 20 pounds. When the airplane carries two such batteries
at 112 pounds and replaces them about every 18 months for several
thousands of dollars each . . . THERE's a market. Come out to
RAC and I'll get you an audience with powers that be on future
product improvements. I've seen them light up like the Grinch
under an Xmas tree if they thought they could save as little as
three pounds per on a 56# battery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Michael <jm(at)10squaredcorp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
There might be serious interest by those interested in lightening bush
planes such as the Husky. Aviat has been working with some folks on a
light Husky. Could be an opportunity to get it certified.
On Monday 10 April 2006 23:08, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Suggest you start with customers who fly revenue generating
> aircraft. If you can deliver 3 a.h. per pound of battery at 12v
> then it works out to 1.5 a.h. per pound on a 24 volt battery.
> Weight savings on and existing 25 a.h., 24-volt design at 56 pounds
> could be on the order of 20 pounds. When the airplane carries two
> such batteries at 112 pounds and replaces them about every 18
> months for several thousands of dollars each . . . THERE's a
> market. Come out to RAC and I'll get you an audience with powers
> that be on future product improvements. I've seen them light up
> like the Grinch under an Xmas tree if they thought they could save
> as little as three pounds per on a 56# battery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
> -->
>
> A dump of what I think I know and some vaguely suspicions--
>
> Stuck Starters--The starter motor pinion is 1.2 inch in
> diameter, the ring gear is about 12 inches in diameter--a
> 1:10 ratio. The starter (non-geared type) turns at several
> thousand RPM to turn the engine at several hundred RPM. When
> the engine is running at maybe 4000 RPM, an engaged pinion
> would turn the starter at 40,000 RPM.
>
> 1) Is this even possible?
> 2) Since a PM starter would be a generator, what would be the effect?
> 3) Would not a pilot have any way to know this?
I don't know about all aircraft starters, but the starter pinion assembly on
a Lamar starter will not allow the starter to be spun up by the engine.
There is a centrifugal release on the pinion (small gear on starter) which,
once released above some rpm, causes the pinion to retract. The retraction
is caused by the (driven) pinion threading its way along a coarse thread. I
only know the Lamar starter, but I would hope all starters act similarly. It
would be a crappy design if it weren't tolerant of people holding the start
button on too long.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 750 hours
Maple Grove, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Because the voltage is so steady, as is the impedance, you can only
easily sense when you are near full or near empty. Like 10% on either
end, perhaps a bit more. This is what the standard electronics will
annunciate. If folks want more, I can do it, but it would add to the cost.
Thanks for the offer to help show off this battery. I'll take you up
on it. It is very kind of you.
It looks like there is enough interest to build a prototype. I'll
probably build it late this summer.
You could check the capacity pretty easily during the annual by
applying a steady load while watching for the warning light.
You would be wise to have some sort of warning horn that tells you
that you have left the master on when you open the door. Kind of like
you have in your car. Running any battery flat can damage it. This could
be an expensive mistake with a battery like this one.
>>>>How I check battery capacity<<<
This works for any type battery. My favorite load is a 300 Watt
inverter, an electric clock with hands, (or mechanical digits,) and a
flood light. Charge up the battery until full. Set the clock to
midnight. Plug it into the inverter. Plug the floodlight into the
inverter. Connect the inverter to the battery. When the inverter senses
the battery voltage has gone below ~ 11 volts, it will shut off. (This
keeps you from damaging the battery if you forget to check on it during
the capacity test.) You then know how long the battery held the constant
wattage load of the floodlight. Do a little math and you have the
battery capacity. Works like a champ.
Bill Dube'
>
> If my e-bus loads say I want to carry an 18 a.h. battery then your
> proposed weight is 5.4# and indeed about 1/3rd that of a run-of-the
> mill SVLA battery. So the question does become a matter of spending
> about 12x as much to save on 10# of weight over a period of 10 years.
>
> Will your proposed electronics keep track of and annunicate
> the battery's present capacity? I've suggested that 'premium'
> batteries may have a less than stellar return on investment
> if the owner/operator has to purchase and periodically use
> test equipment to track the battery's condition for the purpose
> of changing it out when capacity falls below operator selected
> minimums.
>
> Suggest you start with customers who fly revenue generating aircraft.
> If you can deliver 3 a.h. per pound of battery at 12v then it works
> out to 1.5 a.h. per pound on a 24 volt battery. Weight savings on
> and existing 25 a.h., 24-volt design at 56 pounds could be on the
> order of 20 pounds. When the airplane carries two such batteries
> at 112 pounds and replaces them about every 18 months for several
> thousands of dollars each . . . THERE's a market. Come out to
> RAC and I'll get you an audience with powers that be on future
> product improvements. I've seen them light up like the Grinch
> under an Xmas tree if they thought they could save as little as
> three pounds per on a 56# battery.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>
>
>
> > -->
> >
> > A dump of what I think I know and some vaguely suspicions--
> >
> > Stuck Starters--The starter motor pinion is 1.2 inch in
> > diameter, the ring gear is about 12 inches in diameter--a
> > 1:10 ratio. The starter (non-geared type) turns at several
> > thousand RPM to turn the engine at several hundred RPM. When
> > the engine is running at maybe 4000 RPM, an engaged pinion
> > would turn the starter at 40,000 RPM.
> >
> > 1) Is this even possible?
> > 2) Since a PM starter would be a generator, what would be the effect?
> > 3) Would not a pilot have any way to know this?
>
>I don't know about all aircraft starters, but the starter pinion assembly on
>a Lamar starter will not allow the starter to be spun up by the engine.
>There is a centrifugal release on the pinion (small gear on starter) which,
>once released above some rpm, causes the pinion to retract. The retraction
>is caused by the (driven) pinion threading its way along a coarse thread. I
>only know the Lamar starter, but I would hope all starters act similarly. It
>would be a crappy design if it weren't tolerant of people holding the start
>button on too long.
When you think about it, some kind of over-run mechanism is
essential to the survival of a starter motor. Cranking RPM is
always a small fraction of running rpm. A "hard" geared
connection between the starter ring gear and the starter's
armature would be stressed very hard when the engine fires
of and attempts to accelerate the starter motor's mechanisms
as well.
In modern starters with high gear ratios between armature and
pinion shaft, the potential for stress is even higher. Should
the gear train stand the stress of accelerating the armature,
the next potentially destructive boundary to cross is keeping
the wires in the armature and bars on the commutators intact.
Centrifugal forces are high on armature operating at its
design speed. Spin it up by 5 to 10x its design speed and
the windings are thrown out or commutator bars extrude out
of their moorings.
Inertially engaged drives (Bendix) have a helix that pushes
the pinion gear out when the starter motor is accelerating
the system. If the engine starts and tries to push the
starter, then the same helix will retract the pinion. Starters
with positive engagement solenoids have some form of overrunning
clutch to disconnect the slower starter from the rapidly accelerating
engine.
Some feature to prevent back-driving a geared starter while
the pilot senses that the engine has started and releases
the start command is not an option.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations |
Hi all,
I have a Europa and I have decided that the only way I can get a decent taxi
light is to put it in the cowl. There isn't a lot of internal "Real Estate"
and I am looking for a small diameter HID light. Creativair sell as nice
one, but its OD is 4.46" which might be a bit big. I would be interested to
know if anyone else has sourced a smaller diameter HID light. Any
recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks, Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anyone need a nice 4.5" thermometer? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Anyone need a nice 4.5" thermometer?
I purchased 2 new in box surplus 4.5" Weiss, think vapor filled -40F to
110F with 5 foot capillary length for $15, see info below.
I looked up in McMaster Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Then enter: 33125k21 in search, it looks close to C with 5 foot and 4.5
inch dial. The one I bought also comes with a nice aluminium probe flange,
looks like perhaps was mounted in some sort of duct on the flange?
Anyway much faster acting, easier to read and follow trends than the
digital I use now in shop. Pretty nice thing for $15.
As of 04-10-06 he has bout 20 left.
G+D Military Surplus Inc.
Army and Navy
175 Waverly Ave.
Patchogue, NY 11772
I talked to George, he said he will ship for cost. He takes all Major
Credit Cards, or will accept a check, and ship after it clears.
Phone 631-654-5785
Monday - Saturday
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW How would one determine if the thermometer purchased was an oral, or
rectal?
THE TASTE!
Sorry couldn't resist, old ballooning joke from days of 5 inch hanging
thermometers (that I still use).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Paul
"I am looking for a small diameter HID light"
Hella makes a Xenon with a smaller diameter. I think that is what Wicks
sells:
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=4546/index.html
One concern that I never got a good answer, will the frequency of the
Hella interfere with Avionoics?
We did some fooling with lights not too far back, no HIDs or Xenons.
Bottom line is it seems for especial landing, and taxi that the larger the
reflector the much more better it will illuminate what pilots wanna see.
The I think it was a 5 inch standard 12 volt landing light as used in a
Beechcraft was the absolute hands down winner. The next size down, think
3.5 was very good. Hmmm, I forget if i tried in the 3.5 a 100 watt and a
50, or perhaps it was a 50 watt and a 25. I forget, but the one with half
the watts was just a tad less overall.
We fooled with a borrowed box of 50 and 100 watt truck and car lights.
They were small in diameter, and just went from marginal to very poor.
The aircraft and halogens throw out some heat, so need to watch that.
You interested in a joint venture?
On our Mono need to fit some landing/taxi lights. Considering fooling
with:
http://www.besthongkong.com/index.php
Pro - Light 3 and 5 watt (10 watts on way??)
http://www.besthongkong.com/index.php?cPath=19
and 100,000 MCD 123 degree
http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=34
Above not too much heat and fit in outrigger fairing?
Some dumb thoughts I have been having is to have a servo to move
illumination from landing to taxi mode. More dumb thoughts is to
incorporate a model aeroplane heading hold gyro, where you can choose
elevation and hit hold, now point nose up or down and beam stays focused!
Even some much more dumber than dumbness, can incorporate a yaw heading
hold gyro, that would allow S turns and or crab for landing and have beam
trained where you want in 2 axis. The Futaba technology heading hold gyros
does not use piezo, and heat/cold/calibration problems are supposedly
eliminated.
Anyway Best Hong Kong prices are very low, for a hundred 100,000MCD 10MM
are $.48 each. Have to fool with, but 3 or 4 in series are only 20mAs.
Lets say 3 in series and 33 in parallel=99 LEDs. Then 33 * 20 mAs = 660mAs
or .66 amps.
I have fooled quite a bit with LEDs on models, 10,000MCDs and results are
beyond impressive. My gut is 99 100,000MCD, or lets not push and use them
at 80,000MCDs, results may be???? Again these are $.48, I was paying over
$6.00 for the 10,000MCDs.
You can mix and match wide and shallow angle LEDs. Their offered Pro
Lights are wide angle, but aiming backwards into a parabolic reflector???
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>List,
>
>Some of my avionics have molex connectors and I know Bob is an advocate of
>wire support just outside or as part of the crimp. The molex pins for the
>20-22 awg wiring seem awfully fragile. the crimps comprise two parts,
>which I
>assume are to grip the wire and then the insulation. However, these appear
>flimsy and would seem prone to vibration damage. Unlike D-Subs, they do
>not have a
>cover with secondary support. Am I worrying about nothing or is there
>something else I'm missing ? Any advice always a plus, and thanks...
When you say "molex" it's not very definitive. "Molex" is to
connectors as "GM" is to cars. What you're describing seems
to be b-crimp, sheet metal pins. If these are installed with
the right tool, they're quite satisfactory. Molex and AMP have
both supplied a variety of b-crimp connectors to aviation for
over 40 years with good service histories. I wouldn't advise
any worrying.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> recomendations |
| Subject: | Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations |
At 07:00 PM 4/10/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I have a Europa and I have decided that the only way I can get a decent taxi
>light is to put it in the cowl. There isn't a lot of internal "Real Estate"
>and I am looking for a small diameter HID light. Creativair sell as nice
>one, but its OD is 4.46" which might be a bit big. I would be interested to
>know if anyone else has sourced a smaller diameter HID light. Any
>recommendations would be appreciated.
I think I have a source for a 3" round, or a 2"x5" rectangular. My
supplier used to have them, I can check and see if they're still
available. It would be in the $300-$400 range. Drop me a note off
list if you're interested.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations |
Hello Paul,
check
<http://www.hella.com/produktion/HellaCOM/WebSite/MiscContent/Download/Drivers/Lighting/Lightshow_Part1_GBu.pdf>
the DE series HID lights are 76mm diameter or about 3".
br Werner
Paul McAllister wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>I have a Europa and I have decided that the only way I can get a decent taxi
>light is to put it in the cowl. There isn't a lot of internal "Real Estate"
>and I am looking for a small diameter HID light. Creativair sell as nice
>one, but its OD is 4.46" which might be a bit big. I would be interested to
>know if anyone else has sourced a smaller diameter HID light. Any
>recommendations would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks, Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Bill,
I absolutely know you have an eye on battery technology. I have also watched this
but have decided that it would be a real money-loser to get into the battery
market, for the simple reason that some very few months after perfecting (and
even selling a few) miracle batteries; the guys who are tooling up to make them
by the millions will eat your lunch.
There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal. And if you sell a few, your
customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery
technologies and ingenious new devices conspire.
That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27548#27548
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Eric M. Jones wrote:
> There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal.
Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify
a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of
the right customer, you will succeed.
> And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap
fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire.
I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery
that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be
pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being
completely displaced in 5-10 years.
And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are
available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might
displace his proposed battery.
The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power
density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to
start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might
not be as broad as Bill's.
> That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.
Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to
find bargains like that these days.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
Bob wrote:
>Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for
>battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading
>is not a matter for consideration
Bob, I know of "master relays" can open in flight if mounted so positive
G's act to open the device. It has happened to a few RV's. It is not as
critical as the starter, but a master opeining mid aerobatic flight could
cause a little havoc.
Mickey wrote:
>My battery
>contactors are laying on their side, so the only G force that
>will cause them to open will be acceleration, and my engine
>won't have that much power.
Also, Call Van about sideway mount relays, they fail early due to galling.
Van's had a service bulletin / notice about 10 years ago on this.
B&C's starter contactor is designed to mounted Horz.
For a typical vertical relay, mount the starter relay so Pos G's
keep it open and the master relay is held closed by pos G's.
Most sport planes, even RV's pull much less negative G's than Pos.
As for hard core acro planes I wounder what they do also?
Cheers G
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marty" <martorious(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Actually, I think what Eric was trying to say is that unless Bill has the
wherewithal to go into a mass production situation when demand picks up,
that some wall street type is going to pull the market out from under him
after Bill does all the legwork and proves that a market exists. It's all
about leverage and capital. Not to say that a garage based business can't
make it, Apple computer was started in a garage, but then the Apple founder
had full control on the technology, and the impression I'm getting is that
Bill does not own a patent on this particular technology, so he is
vulnerable to larger corporations moving in on the market.
Just my $.02
Marty Puckett
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Lloyd
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery
Eric M. Jones wrote:
> There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal.
Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify
a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of
the right customer, you will succeed.
> And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when
cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices
conspire.
I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery
that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be
pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being
completely displaced in 5-10 years.
And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are
available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might
displace his proposed battery.
The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power
density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to
start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might
not be as broad as Bill's.
> That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.
Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to
find bargains like that these days.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
>
>Bob wrote:
>
> >Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for
> >battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading
> >is not a matter for consideration
>
> Bob, I know of "master relays" can open in flight if mounted so positive
>G's act to open the device. It has happened to a few RV's. It is not as
>critical as the starter, but a master opeining mid aerobatic flight could
>cause a little havoc.
Where's your data George? You are no doubt aware of the exponential
increase in holding force as a magnetically driven armature seats
in the closed position. Let's noodle this through a bit.
If a 12v contactor will close at 7 volts, then current that
flows at 7 volts represents the same FORCE as would be applied
to close a contactor due to g-loading. The same contactor drops
out at 1.5 volts; about 1/5th the current required to
close it. Now if we bias the coil at 14 volts, then force keeping
it closed is now about 10X more than it takes to close it. If my
measured 4-5 g's was the closure acceleration, then opening
accelerations must be on the order of 50g's or more. So much
for back-of-the-napkin reasoning . ..
I just went to the bench and energized an S701-1 contactor
(el cheeso S-W-R continuous duty) and pulled it out of
fully engaged positing with a spring tester. It unseats at 6.5 to
7 KgF. The plunger and contact ring weigh in at 60 gm so
that gives us more than 100:1 ratio between mass of
the assembly and force to dislodge it. This substantiates
the back-of-the napkin estimate above.
I'll suggest that nobody is going to open ANY energized
battery contactor with ANY manner of aerobatic maneuver.
>
>
> Mickey wrote:
>
> >My battery
> >contactors are laying on their side, so the only G force that
> >will cause them to open will be acceleration, and my engine
> >won't have that much power.
>
>
> Also, Call Van about sideway mount relays, they fail early due to galling.
> Van's had a service bulletin / notice about 10 years ago on this.
>
> B&C's starter contactor is designed to mounted Horz.
>
> For a typical vertical relay, mount the starter relay so Pos G's
> keep it open and the master relay is held closed by pos G's.
>
> Most sport planes, even RV's pull much less negative G's than Pos.
> As for hard core acro planes I wounder what they do also?
????? These contactors . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/contactor/strtrctr.jpg
. . . have acceleration-sensitive axis normal and parallel
to the mounting base. This contactor . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1.jpg
. . . has an acceleration-sensitive axis parallel to the mounting
base.
Which style is "designed to be mounted horz". I don't recall
seeing terms like "vertical" or "horizontal" used to
describe intended orientation for any of these products.
We've seen all these form factors mounted in a variety of
orientations. Help us understand the concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McMahon" <blackoaks(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations |
Paul, Have you looked at these?
http://www.leadingedgeaircraft.com/airliteintro.htm
> know if anyone else has sourced a smaller diameter HID light. Any
> recommendations would be appreciated.
>
>
John McMahon
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Dear Brian,
Cheer up.
Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see:
http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter.
I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way to
make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27643#27643
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> Dear Brian,
>
> Cheer up.
I am very cheerful. I am even smiling as I write this. :-)
> Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see:
>
> http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter.
It is for the military. That means when it hits Wall-Mart it will cost $40.
> I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way
to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).
Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
for. That is how innovation happens.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK),
judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas
like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and
snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the
time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the
fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the
drop of a hat.
I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it,
they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap
shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad
marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are
millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask
Gary Kildall.
I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in
1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary
cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a
lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it.
Dave Morris
Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper.
No, I didn't patent it.
At 02:55 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote:
> > I really think independently trying to get into the battery
> business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).
>
>Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
>fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
>for. That is how innovation happens.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:
>
> I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK),
> judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas
> like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and
> snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the
> time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the
> fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the
> drop of a hat.
>
> I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it,
> they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap
> shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad
> marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are
> millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask
> Gary Kildall.
>
> I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in
> 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary
> cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a
> lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it.
>
> Dave Morris
> Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper.
> No, I didn't patent it.
Wow! And all I ever did was make it possible for PCs to connect to the
Internet. Darn.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
| From: | "David Glauser" <david.glauser(at)xpsystems.com> |
Regarding your signature - you must not have had to deal with SoCal
Approach...
dg
Wow! And all I ever did was make it possible for PCs to connect to the
Internet. Darn.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
was that the U of Hard Knocks or Hong Kong Dave?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Morris "BigD"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery
>
>
> I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK),
> judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas
> like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and
> snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the
> time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the
> fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the
> drop of a hat.
>
> I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it,
> they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap
> shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad
> marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are
> millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask
> Gary Kildall.
>
> I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in
> 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary
> cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a
> lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it.
>
> Dave Morris
> Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper.
> No, I didn't patent it.
>
>
> At 02:55 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote:
>> > I really think independently trying to get into the battery
>> business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the
>> quote).
>>
>>Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
>>fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
>>for. That is how innovation happens.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
David Glauser wrote:
>
> Regarding your signature - you must not have had to deal with SoCal
> Approach...
I was born, raised, and learned to fly in SoCal. Tower enroute was the
way to go as you didn't have to deal with center. I also harken back to
the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you
young whipper-snappers).
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McMahon" <blackoaks(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
OK! How about Adcock Ranges?
On 4/11/06, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
> I also harken back to
> the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you
> young whipper-snappers).
>
>
--
John McMahon
Lancair Super ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
John McMahon wrote:
>
> OK! How about Adcock Ranges?
When I would fly up to Canada with my father in the late '60s I enjoyed
the challenge of flying the adcock range at Cranbrook on our way to
Calgary. When I got to Calgary I would request (and get) a GCA approach.
The only thing I haven't done flying IFR is flown depending on a manual
DF loop. Oh, and while I have played with an old LORAN-A receiver, I
have never used one to navigate.
>
> On 4/11/06, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>> I also harken back to
>> the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you
>> young whipper-snappers).
>>
>>
> --
> John McMahon
> Lancair Super ES
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Marty" <martorious(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane |
battery
Up until a few decades ago, fire departments and firefighters shunned trucks
with a roof, believing it was unmanly. Today's trucks have large crew areas
with A/C, Heat and big cushy seats. I volunteered for 6 years on my
hometown's Fire Department, and I have to say that the A/C felt awful good
after working a traffic accident or house fire in mid August. I felt I
proved my worth on the fireground, I had nothing left to prove on the ride
back! That's what a few decades (and technology) does for us, it makes us
soft! But I for one won't give up my A/C! Lol
Marty Puckett
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Sultzbach
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect
airplane battery
This thread is entertaining. I must say, my dad, an
old time pilot who was flying in the thirties had a
real disdain for radios and radio navigation of any
kind. So you young whippersnappers top that. Isn't
it funny how we perceive our world depending on when
we came along.
--- BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp -
push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be the appropriate
rating.
Anyone know of a source?
Thanks,
Wally Hunt
Rockford, IL
RV-4 Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
Use a fuse link instead. If you pop a breaker that size do you really want
to reset it in flight?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RV4WGH(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: CIRCUIT BREAKERS
I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp -
push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be the
appropriate
rating.
Anyone know of a source?
Thanks,
Wally Hunt
Rockford, IL
RV-4 Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall |
Bob ...
Do you see any problem with mounting the current limiter on the aft side of
the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical hardware components off
the engine side of the firewall.
Is there a limiting wire size for fuselinks ... where the smoke generated
from burning them is just too much for the human body to cope with?
At one time, I thought, the max fuse size for fuse blocks was 20A. B&C now
lists 15A. For amperages over 15, what do you suggest for protection of the
wire?
Thanks for all you do for this list ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane |
battery
Robert Sultzbach wrote:
>
> This thread is entertaining. I must say, my dad, an
> old time pilot who was flying in the thirties had a
> real disdain for radios and radio navigation of any
> kind. So you young whippersnappers top that. Isn't
> it funny how we perceive our world depending on when
> we came along.
Navigation is near and dear to my heart. Finding where I am, where I am
going, and when I am going to get there is just plain fun.
In fact, I like it so much that I use it to teach geometry to 6th, 7th,
and 8th graders. They like it because it is something real to do and not
just regurgitation. I have them surveying and making maps (complete with
errors). They don't realize that they are learning what vectors are.
I have them plotting trips on our giant WAC chart of the US that covers
one wall of the classroom and then grabbing an E6B to tell me when they
will get there and how much fuel they will need. Of course, this is
sneaking in an interest in geography. Some even asked me how the E6B
worked so I got to tell them about ratios and logarithms.
Pretty soon I am going to introduce the concept of lines of position
(LOPs) and how pilotage, VOR, GPS, and celestial navigation work. No,
they are not going to become navigators but they sure as heck will know
that mathematics is both useful and fun.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Firewall |
| Subject: | Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall |
>
>Bob ...
>Do you see any problem with mounting the current limiter on the aft side of
>the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical hardware components off
>the engine side of the firewall.
Why? There's nothing inherently evil about mounting
things under the cowl. You simply choose parts designed
to function well in that environment. Certainly things
like contactors, current limiters, shunts, and batteries
are candidates for mounting on forward side of firewall.
Generally speaking, from a maintenance perspective, things
are easier to get at on the forward side of firewall than
aft side. I'd put as MUCH stuff as practical on the front side
with an idea of minimizing firewall penetrations by wires . . .
especially fat wires.
>Is there a limiting wire size for fuselinks ... where the smoke generated
>from burning them is just too much for the human body to cope with?
Review Note 4 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11F.pdf
Fusible links are ROBUST. They're kind the mini-version
of ANN/ANL current limiters. Compared with fuses, they'll
carry a LOT of current for a long time. I would not
recommend them for any applications other than those
suggested in the Z-figures. Further, it's best that
any fusible link be under the cowl and not in the
cockpit.
>At one time, I thought, the max fuse size for fuse blocks was 20A. B&C now
>lists 15A. For amperages over 15, what do you suggest for protection of the
>wire?
The Bussmann rating for these fuseblocks is 30A max
for any one branch. As I pointed out in the recent article
on switch failures . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure.html
. . . electronic components are most likely to fail because
of environmental effects (in this case, compromised metal
to metal contact at the contact rocker). De-rating helps to
slow down the rate at which environmental effects chip away
at a device's performance.
What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A?
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More Old Struff |
>
>
>Pretty soon I am going to introduce the concept of lines of position
>(LOPs) and how pilotage, VOR, GPS, and celestial navigation work. No,
>they are not going to become navigators but they sure as heck will know
>that mathematics is both useful and fun.
LOPs are pretty cool. Received an introduction to the concept
at astrocompass school at Boeing many moons ago. It was easy
to visualize that any give star has an infinite number of
locations on the earth where it appears x-degrees above the
horizon. So, shooting one star and knowing time of day to
access the almanac, you could deduce an infinite number of
accurate possibilities as to where you were. Shoot a second
star and intersections reduce infinite to two, shoot a third
and you're down to one possible location.
When I studied LORAN years later and taught it at Great Lakes,
LOP's plotted with timing of shore based radio signals vs.
angles above horizon proved just as useful.
Nowadays, GPS does exactly the same thing except timing
comes off of stations whizzing above the earth.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
>
>I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp -
>push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be
>the appropriate
>rating.
>
>Anyone know of a source?
I'd recommend you go to an ANL current limiter mounted
on the firewall and wired as described in the Z-figures.
If you absolutely must have a breaker, the right sized
(75 amp) is going to be a fat rascal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
Bruce,
I'm just trying to find a suitable B lead protection with the following
questions ... no foul intended, Bruce. Have you used a fuselink for the
purpose expressed below? What gage wire are you advocating to use with say,
a 10 AWG B lead from the alternator? The standards point to using four
gages smaller, or, 14 AWG. Is this what you are advocating to substitute
for say a 70A CB or 80A current limiter?
Thanks ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
> Use a fuse link instead. If you pop a breaker that size do you really want
> to reset it in flight?
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp -
> push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be the
> appropriate
> rating.
>
> Anyone know of a source?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wally Hunt
> Rockford, IL
> RV-4 Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More Old Struff |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> LOPs are pretty cool. Received an introduction to the concept
> at astrocompass school at Boeing many moons ago. It was easy
> to visualize that any give star has an infinite number of
> locations on the earth where it appears x-degrees above the
> horizon.
Right. It is a circle centered on the point on the earth where the
object is at the zenith (declination is 90 degrees). The distance from
that point is the sin of the elevation times 1/4 the circumference of
the earth.
> So, shooting one star and knowing time of day to
> access the almanac, you could deduce an infinite number of
> accurate possibilities as to where you were.
Right, a *line* of position.
> Shoot a second
> star and intersections reduce infinite to two, shoot a third
> and you're down to one possible location.
>
> When I studied LORAN years later and taught it at Great Lakes,
> LOP's plotted with timing of shore based radio signals vs.
> angles above horizon proved just as useful.
Right, and you can cross LOPs from anything to find your position. You
can cross a LORAN TD LOP with a celestial LOP to get a position. It is
very cool stuff.
I plan to introduce the concept to the kids by using a road as one LOP
and a compass bearing off a landmark as another. It is something they
can get their hands around right away. From there I will introduce more
esoteric stuff like two bearings (triangulation) and then on to other
stuff if they can handle it.
>
> Nowadays, GPS does exactly the same thing except timing
> comes off of stations whizzing above the earth.
A little different. Celestial is based on angles which define a circle
on the surface of the earth. GPS "LOPs" are actually spheres defined by
a time (distance) from the satellite. One bird defines a sphere. Two
define a circle. Three define two intersecting circles or two points.
Four defines a single point which is why you need to see four satellites
in order to have three-D navigation. Many GPS receivers use the altitude
encoder to define a pseudo-range from the center of the earth to
simulate another satellite. It is just another form of LOP.
I love this stuff.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More Old Struff |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I like the astro-inertial concept, as used on various craft. Forget
jammed GPS. Just have to fly above the clouds. Works in daylight too.
http://www.dtic.mil/matris/sbir/sbir021/n104.pdf
What is old is new..
Matt-
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Pretty soon I am going to introduce the concept of lines of position
>> (LOPs) and how pilotage, VOR, GPS, and celestial navigation work. No,
>> they are not going to become navigators but they sure as heck will know
>> that mathematics is both useful and fun.
>
> LOPs are pretty cool. Received an introduction to the concept
> at astrocompass school at Boeing many moons ago. It was easy
> to visualize that any give star has an infinite number of
> locations on the earth where it appears x-degrees above the
> horizon. So, shooting one star and knowing time of day to
> access the almanac, you could deduce an infinite number of
> accurate possibilities as to where you were. Shoot a second
> star and intersections reduce infinite to two, shoot a third
> and you're down to one possible location.
>
> When I studied LORAN years later and taught it at Great Lakes, LOP's
> plotted with timing of shore based radio signals vs.
> angles above horizon proved just as useful.
>
> Nowadays, GPS does exactly the same thing except timing
> comes off of stations whizzing above the earth.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall |
> Firewall
>
>
>>
>>Bob ...
>>Do you see any problem with mounting the current limiter on the aft side
>>of
>>the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical hardware components off
>>the engine side of the firewall.
>
> Why? There's nothing inherently evil about mounting
> things under the cowl. You simply choose parts designed
> to function well in that environment. Certainly things
> like contactors, current limiters, shunts, and batteries
> are candidates for mounting on forward side of firewall.
The airplane is an RV8A which is nose heavy by design. The battery goes
behind the aft baggage area. There is no battery planned to go on the
firewall. Therefore any electrical hardware mounted to the firewall would
require more penetrations than already planned.
> Generally speaking, from a maintenance perspective, things
> are easier to get at on the forward side of firewall than
> aft side. I'd put as MUCH stuff as practical on the front side
> with an idea of minimizing firewall penetrations by wires . . .
> especially fat wires.
The design of the RV8A includes a storage well directly behind the firewall,
on the right side and below the fwd baggage area. This storage well
provides convenience for working on fuses, contactors, aux battery and a
wiring center. This makes the distance from contactors to fuse blocks only
4-6 inches. The baggage door covers all of this storage well. There is no
need to remove engine cowling unless there is a stater or alternator
problem.
>
> What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A?
The endurance bus feed is planned to be tapped off the hot battery bus
through a fuse similar to Z12. The endurance bus will be running about
22A. It seems this feed wire needs to be moved to the hot battery bus lug.
Should this be done and what method of wire protection should be used with
this source of power for the endurance bus?
Thanks ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Where to fly from! |
| From: | James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com> |
Wally,
Where do you live in Rockford? Born there and grew up there but
left there over 30 years ago. Where do you expect to fly? Out of
Greater Rockford or a grass strip locally. I use to fly out a strip
around Rockton but its now a shopping center and the road to Beloit is
now a 4 lane.
I'm going to be there for Mothers day. My Step Mom and Father in
law are still there so we get up there at least once a year. Its easier
to shovel sunshine rather than snow (brrrr). We can dodge the
hurricanes but tornados are quick and dirty.
Jim Nelson
St. Petersburg Fl.
RV9-A (canopy)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Sultzbach <endspeed(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall |
Hi Jerry, I too, believed the 8A would be more
forward in cg than the tailwheel 8. I came across
some info, where escapes me, that stated the 8A is
actually less forward in cg than the 8. Apparently,
the gear towers in the 8 are quite heavy and move the
cg more than the 8A's nose gear. Investigate this to
verify it. I too, will check it out. Bob
--- Jerry Grimmonpre wrote:
> Grimmonpre"
>
>
>
> L. Nuckolls, III"
> > Firewall
> >
> >
> Grimmonpre"
> >>
> >>Bob ...
> >>Do you see any problem with mounting the current
> limiter on the aft side
> >>of
> >>the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical
> hardware components off
> >>the engine side of the firewall.
> >
> > Why? There's nothing inherently evil about
> mounting
> > things under the cowl. You simply choose parts
> designed
> > to function well in that environment. Certainly
> things
> > like contactors, current limiters, shunts, and
> batteries
> > are candidates for mounting on forward side of
> firewall.
>
> The airplane is an RV8A which is nose heavy by
> design. The battery goes
> behind the aft baggage area. There is no battery
> planned to go on the
> firewall. Therefore any electrical hardware mounted
> to the firewall would
> require more penetrations than already planned.
>
>
> > Generally speaking, from a maintenance
> perspective, things
> > are easier to get at on the forward side of
> firewall than
> > aft side. I'd put as MUCH stuff as practical on
> the front side
> > with an idea of minimizing firewall
> penetrations by wires . . .
> > especially fat wires.
>
> The design of the RV8A includes a storage well
> directly behind the firewall,
> on the right side and below the fwd baggage area.
> This storage well
> provides convenience for working on fuses,
> contactors, aux battery and a
> wiring center. This makes the distance from
> contactors to fuse blocks only
> 4-6 inches. The baggage door covers all of this
> storage well. There is no
> need to remove engine cowling unless there is a
> stater or alternator
> problem.
>
> >
> > What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A?
>
> The endurance bus feed is planned to be tapped off
> the hot battery bus
> through a fuse similar to Z12. The endurance bus
> will be running about
> 22A. It seems this feed wire needs to be moved to
> the hot battery bus lug.
> Should this be done and what method of wire
> protection should be used with
> this source of power for the endurance bus?
>
> Thanks ...
> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
Bob wrote:
>Where's your data George? You are no doubt aware of the
>exponential increase in holding force as a magnetically driven
>armature seats in the closed position. Let's noodle this through
>a bit.
Bob, I don't know what the holding force is, and I believe you're
100% correct the force is huge and probably unlikely to come
unstuck or open under normal positive G's regardless of mounting
position.
To answer you question about my data, I think I stated it but will
repeat. A RV builder / pilot reported his panel went dark with
Pos G's maneuvers about 6 or more years ago. From this report
posted in Van's Aircraft News letter (The RVator), but don't have
a date or page number reference. So lets put it in the rumor /
hearsay column.
Since there is 4000 RV's and Van's sells the contactors they
have some good service history info and that is what I base
my comments on.
I am 100% sure Van's Aircraft does indeed recommend the
master contactor/relay be mounted so Pos G's works to keep
the plunger (contact) close. Why not do that? Also as I said
they also say keep vertical contactor vertical since galling
occurs with side ways mounting. The excepting is the B&C
starter contactor that is horz mount.
With a typical Cole-Hersee mater relay that is the pointy end
up. So given the choice, which you should have, I would mount
it per Van's recommendation, since it makes sense, even if its
not absolutly an issue as you say due to the big holding force.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but thanks for your insight.
I have a call into Cole-Hersee to see what they say is the
G's limits are. If I find any DATA I'll write.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More Old Struff |
On 12 Apr 2006, at 14:39, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> yak(at)lloyd.com>
>
> A little different. Celestial is based on angles which define a circle
> on the surface of the earth. GPS "LOPs" are actually spheres
> defined by
> a time (distance) from the satellite. One bird defines a sphere. Two
> define a circle. Three define two intersecting circles or two points.
> Four defines a single point which is why you need to see four
> satellites
> in order to have three-D navigation. Many GPS receivers use the
> altitude
> encoder to define a pseudo-range from the center of the earth to
> simulate another satellite. It is just another form of LOP.
I thought we needed the fourth satellite to correct for inaccuracy in
the GPS receiver's clock.
Three satellites would be enough, if the receiver had an extremely
accurate clock, and you make the assumption that the receiver is
somewhere close to the earth's surface. As you say, if you have
three satellites, that will give two possible points, but one of
those points is way, way out in space, and you can assume that this
point is not the right one. The info from the fourth satellite is
used to determine the error in the receiver's clock. The clock needs
to be correct with nanosecond accuracy to resolve ranges to a few
feet. The satellites have extremely accurate, very, very expensive
clocks to sync the signals to. But the receivers only have cheap,
much less accurate clocks. The lines of position from the fourth
satellite don't agree with the ones from the others if there is an
error in the receiver's clock. The assumed clock error is adjusted
until the info from all satellites agrees.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More Old Struff |
Matt Prather wrote:
>
> I like the astro-inertial concept, as used on various craft. Forget
> jammed GPS. Just have to fly above the clouds. Works in daylight too.
>
> http://www.dtic.mil/matris/sbir/sbir021/n104.pdf
>
> What is old is new..
Oh, this is very cool. I want one in my plane. No one can jam it or turn
it off.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect |
airplane battery
James H Nelson wrote:
>
> Brian,
> What a terrible thing to do to our children, learning how to do
> something useful in school. tisk, tisk
> Especially in the California school system.
I am teaching at a private school. You don't think they would let me
teach at a public school do you?
Heck, just to terrify you some more more, the kids were studying the US
Civil War so I brought in a Swiss Army muzzle loader, a Springfield
45-70 "Trap Door", and a Winchester 1873 repeater to show the kids the
technology the soldiers were fighting with and how the technology
rapidly changed to make mass charges less effective. I gave them a
graphic demonstration of the increase in firing rate. Most of the kids
had never seen a real firearm before.
If it had been a public school I would now be in jail for having a
firearm on campus. :-0
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More Old Struff |
Kevin Horton wrote:
> I thought we needed the fourth satellite to correct for inaccuracy in
> the GPS receiver's clock.
That is probably right although most GPS sensors will do 2D nav with
just three satellites and assume surface of the earth to resolve the errors.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | guy fulton <truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Off, R, L, Both, Start switch |
After several weeks of searching and asking, there
does not appear to be a switch that accomplishes the
reverse functions of a magneto type switch. Having
said that, I was able to alter a standard switch to
preform the necessary tasks.
Thanks guy
--- bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
>
>
> 3/27/2006
>
> Hello Guy, So you want to take this notoriously
> fickle switch,
>
> (see this web page for
>
example//http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html),
>
> modify it, and put it into your electronic ignition
> circuits where a single
> point failure can render both of your electronic
> ignitions inoperative.
>
> Why would you want to do that?
>
> OC
>
> From: guy fulton <truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off, R, L, Both, Start
> switch
>
>
>
> -=Guy=-
> I converted to Dual electronic ignition 2years ago,
> now am doing a complete dash replacment. Now use a
> series of toggle switches for each of the two
> ignition
> systems. I wanted to use a standard aircraft
> ignition
> switch but it works opposite of what is needed for
> electronic ignition. Is there an aircraft switch
> manufactured that would work with the electronic
> ignition? Is there a modification I could make to a
> standard switch that would work?
> thanks for any help.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Firewall |
| Subject: | Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall |
>
> >
> > What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A?
>
>The endurance bus feed is planned to be tapped off the hot battery bus
>through a fuse similar to Z12. The endurance bus will be running about
>22A. It seems this feed wire needs to be moved to the hot battery bus lug.
>Should this be done and what method of wire protection should be used with
>this source of power for the endurance bus?
Understand on locations. How does the e-bus load get so high?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
>
>Bruce,
>I'm just trying to find a suitable B lead protection with the following
>questions ... no foul intended, Bruce. Have you used a fuselink for the
>purpose expressed below? What gage wire are you advocating to use with say,
>a 10 AWG B lead from the alternator?
When you say 10AWG b-lead feeder, I presume you're talking
about a SMALL alternator, like the SD20. Here you're talking
about fusible links on the same order as those used in automobiles
(14AWG). Yeah, that size b-lead/alternator combination is probably
a good candidate for fusible link . . . but under the cowl.
> The standards . . .
Let's be careful about what we label as "standards" . . . the fusible
links in automotive applications are common practice supported
by good science and practical experience. If we elevate the practice
to a "standard" then the next creep in concept will elevate it to a
regulation. There are roaming hoards of individuals constantly on the
lookout for things to elevate to regulatory status all in the name
of safety . . . and nobody is against being safer, right?
> . . . point to using four gages smaller, or, 14 AWG. Is this what you
> are advocating to substitute for say a 70A CB or 80A current limiter?
Here's where we get a disconnect. A 10AWG/14AWG feeder-link combo
is in the 20-30A alternator class. If you're looking to replace
a 70A breaker, then we're talking 6AWG or 4AWG feeders and fusible
links are indeed impractical. Then the CB or current limiter becomes
hardware of choice. Since the b-lead protection does not benefit
from pilot access, a limiter is attractive. Know that limiters
have a VERY long and conservative operating time constant compared
with fuses. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html
Note that a 100A limiter will carry 170A indefinitely
and that it's blowing time constant is much longer
than fuses. Breakers fall between fuses and limiters
with respect to sensitivity and speed.
Which b-lead are you wrestling with? An SD-20 or something
larger?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Seiko Pilot Watches on Sale. (Okay... REALLY OFF TOPIC) |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Overstock.com has the classic Seiko pilot watches on deep discount--
$99.99 for the blue face and $115.99 for the black. Way cool.....
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28122#28122
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Duane Wilson <aaa(at)pacifier.com> |
| Subject: | Wire gage VS length of run on Z14 |
I am building an RV9A with the Z-14 as my electrical system. I need
help understanding what gage of wire to use in a few spots.
In particular there are some specifications on the schematic that
state the run should be 6 inches or less from the battery contactors to
the batt bus. 10 AWG is recommended for these runs, but the load on
these buses should be very light.
Why the length restriction, and if I can't place the bat buses
within 6 inches of the contactors how should I figure the correct wire gage?
Same type of question for the 4AWG from the Aux batt to the contactor
Thanks,
Duane
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire gage VS length of run on Z14 |
>
>I am building an RV9A with the Z-14 as my electrical system. I need
>help understanding what gage of wire to use in a few spots.
>
> In particular there are some specifications on the schematic that
>state the run should be 6 inches or less from the battery contactors to
>the batt bus. 10 AWG is recommended for these runs, but the load on
>these buses should be very light.
> Why the length restriction, and if I can't place the bat buses
>within 6 inches of the contactors how should I figure the correct wire gage?
>
> Same type of question for the 4AWG from the Aux batt to the contactor
The Z-figures are illustrative of ARCHITECTURES. All wires, breakers,
fuses, etc should be sized in accordance with the details of
equipment you choose to install. The values shown are typcial but
not necessarily applicable to YOUR project.
Battery busses should be as close to the battery as practical.
The industry practice is that small feeders of 6" or less do
not represent a significant hazard to flight if they should
be faulted to destruction. If you're going to extend a battery
bus, then it becomes just another main, aux or e-bus. In this
case, practice suggests that you provide it with its own
mini-contactor like the e-bus fat feeder shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/E-BusFatFeed.gif
If it's a battery bus, then it's close to the battery and
is fitted with fuses no larger than 7A. Again, an industry
practice . . .
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)adelphia.net> |
Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
RV10, Piper type?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
Try,
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Marlow
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU Plug
Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
RV10, Piper type?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryRosen(at)comcast.net |
Sam,
Where are you planning on mounting your power plug on the RV-10? Someone is mounting the plug in there rear close out panel http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm and Vans prototype has it mounted under the instrument panel on the out board pilot side.
Larry Rosen
http://lrosen.nerv10.com
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
>
> Try,
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> Marlow
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:46 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU Plug
>
>
>
>
> Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
> RV10, Piper type?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sam,
Where are you planning on mounting your power plug on the RV-10? Someone is mounting the plug in there rear close out panel http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm and Vans prototype has it mounted under the instrument panel on the out board pilot side.
Larry Rosen
http://lrosen.nerv10.com
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bruce Gray" Bruce(at)glasair.org
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
Try,
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Marlow
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:46 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU Plug
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Marlow
Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
RV10, Piper type?
&
gt;
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
>
>
>
> When you say 10AWG b-lead feeder, I presume you're talking
> about a SMALL alternator, like the SD20. Here you're talking
> about fusible links on the same order as those used in automobiles
> (14AWG). Yeah, that size b-lead/alternator combination is probably
> a good candidate for fusible link . . . but under the cowl.
My bad Bob ...
I erroneously labeled a 60A alt B lead with a 10 AWG and stared at for so
many days ... began to believe it as well. It deserves a 6 AWG ... correct
me if wrong. In this installation, would a 60A current limiter be OK since
the CL have an 80% over load rating?
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html
Thanks for the link and your leadership, Bob ... that clears up alot.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-8/8A CG location |
Sorry people.
Jerry Grimmonpre pointed out that I forgot to include the weight&balance/CG
web site address for comparing the CG location of 8/8A aircraft.
here it is: http://www.rvproject.com/wab/
Dale Ensing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: School Stuff |
| From: | "rlnelson5" <rlnelson-5(at)peoplepc.com> |
I think it goes more to how committed to excellence is your local school district.
I live in Dist. 196 in the South metro of St Paul/Mpls. MN The district was
named a District of Excellence by both the state of MN and the US Dept of ED.
. My sons have gone to a public school through high school and all three schools
have the above credentiials. Incidentially in middle school[678] here ,we
had a firearms class given for the 6th grade. We brought guns to school and
actually went out to a farm on a school bus and had all the kids try a .22, 30/30
,.30 06, and a shotgun. All ammo ,targets paid for by the school. It isnt
like every school is bad in the US.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28248#28248
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS |
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > When you say 10AWG b-lead feeder, I presume you're talking
> > about a SMALL alternator, like the SD20. Here you're talking
> > about fusible links on the same order as those used in automobiles
> > (14AWG). Yeah, that size b-lead/alternator combination is probably
> > a good candidate for fusible link . . . but under the cowl.
>
>My bad Bob ...
>I erroneously labeled a 60A alt B lead with a 10 AWG and stared at for so
>many days ... began to believe it as well. It deserves a 6 AWG ... correct
>me if wrong. In this installation, would a 60A current limiter be OK since
>the CL have an 80% over load rating?
>
> > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html
>
>Thanks for the link and your leadership, Bob ... that clears up alot.
You're correct. An ANL 60 will be just fine on the b-lead
of a 60A alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja(at)starpower.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 PM Alternator |
Bob N,et al,
There has been periodic discussion on this list in the past about the
SD-8(& maybe other permanent magnet alternators)not being capable of
coming on line if the battery or other power source to the buss fails or
is not otherwise available to activate the SD-8.
I have experimented with a simple idea that solves this situation and
want to share the info to solicit comments on the suitability or any
downside features anyone may offer.
The circuit consists of tapping into the SD-8 regulator output and
feeding that through a diode to the positive side of an electrolytic
capacitor, grounding the negative lead of the capacitor and connecting a
spring loaded,normally-open push-button switch across the diode.
After engine start-up and during the subsequent pre-flight system check
of the SD-8, it charges the capacitor and the diode prevents loss of
this charge thereafter even if the SD-8 is not left switched on. If
total loss of electrical power to the buss occurs during flight, the
SD-8 will come on line by momentarily activating the push button switch
while also closing the SD-8 switch to the buss.
Through both ground and flight testing, I found no situation where
it failed to work. An unexpected finding is that the SD-8 will activate
with as low as 1.0 volt charge on the capacitor! Another bonus is that
the capacitor leakage rate is so low that from an initial charge of only
12.5 volts, it requires 2 hours short of 3 full days to leak down to
10.5 volts! (average of 0.0286 volts per hour). Of course, this rate is
progressively less as the charge voltage drops further, so if someone
left the Master on and killed the battery and then wanted to prop the
engine many days later(more than 2 weeks!)the SD-8 could then be brought
on line!! BTW,I'm using a 56kmf,16V(20Vsurge)capacitor from Digi-Key,
P/N P6878-ND, at less than $8. Less capacity should also work
adequately,but the already small size, weight and cost doesn't
contribute enough to cause concern.
What puzzles me is how the SD-8 and its regulator can respond to a
voltage as low as 1.0. Can someone explain this?
Jim McCulley
Tailwind
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)adelphia.net> |
I'm putting it on the left side of the fuselage across from the battery,
above the flap.
LarryRosen(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>Sam,
>Where are you planning on mounting your power plug on the RV-10? Someone is mounting the plug in there rear close out panel http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm and Vans prototype has it mounted under the instrument panel on the out board pilot side.
>
>Larry Rosen
>http://lrosen.nerv10.com
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
>
>
>
>>
>>Try,
>>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>>
>>Bruce
>>www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
>>Marlow
>>Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:46 AM
>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU Plug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
>>RV10, Piper type?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Sam,
>Where are you planning on mounting your power plug on the RV-10? Someone is mounting the plug in there rear close out panel http://jharris.net/Aviation/RV_10.htm and Vans prototype has it mounted under the instrument panel on the out board pilot side.
>
>Larry Rosen
>http://lrosen.nerv10.com
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: "Bruce Gray" Bruce(at)glasair.org
>
> -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
>
> Try,
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> Marlow
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:46 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU Plug
>
>
> -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Marlow
>
>
> Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
> RV10, Piper type?
>
>
>&
>gt;
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
Well I'm happy to report that I put a diode in the feed to the zener on
both homebuilt OVP modules and I have not seen a nuisance OV trip since.
I have started the engine numerous times while chasing some oil leaks
and other issues so I think the problem is licked and I recommend the
mod. Thanks again Bob!
I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as recommended
below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd like
and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise impressive
specs. At the moment I'm trying to catch sporadic extra spark events
that I suspect may be occuring in my electronic ignition. Has anybody
used one of the low cost PC laptop scopes for chasing such gremlins?
Some of the PC scopes have larger memory and are less costly than a used
tektronix. I presume that a larger memory is more useful than a fast
sample rate for ignition work. An intriguing example of one of the
pricer units is at http://www.linkinstruments.com/oscilloscope21.htm#pricing
thank you for any thoughts or recommendations
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Thank you for your thoughts Bob.
>>
>>I considered adding a diode in series with the 392 R resistor to pull up
>>the reference voltage quicker but discarded the idea. I was thinking
>>that while the voltage was rising immediately after cranking, such a
>>diode would give the trigger voltage a 0.6 volt headstart so to speak.
>>As you point out though that doesn't matter if the reference voltage
>>doesn't sag in the first place. Have to check again but I think I'm just
>>barely seeing over 12 volts at the time that I start cranking so not
>>much headroom to bring the ref. voltage up to 12 volts before cranking.
>>Maybe there's a schottky type diode in my junk pile... er..parts bin.
>>This is an EFI engine so it does not normally need much cranking. I will
>>try this diode on one of the OVM's this morning but it will take awhile
>>before I know whether it does the trick.
>>
>>
>
> I don't think there's an issue with how fast the ref
> voltage comes up, we just want to keep it from being pulled down
> during the locked-rotor inrush current that every starter imposes
> on a battery for the first few milliseconds while the motor
> is spinning up. See:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg
>
> Here we see bus voltage dipping to 7.5 volts and it takes
> about 600 mS before the voltage rises above 12v. All during
> this time, vref in the ov module is going to be something
> lower than 12v. 392 ohms and 22uf has a time constant of
> 8.6 milliseconds; the brownout interval is significantly longer.
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1_2.gif
>
> This is a tighter view that shows the slope of the voltage
> during starter spin-up.
>
> There's no 'load' on Vref, it's a sinking reference that's
> keeping the ref point from rising at trip time. The only reason
> for the 392 resistor is to bias the zener into a low impedance
> region of relatively stable voltage. You could replace the 392
> ohm resistor with something much higher and also make the 'problem'
> go away . . . but Vref will fall slightly with the lower bias
> current and have a slight effect on setpoint stability.
>
> I think the diode in series is the best bet. A 1N4000 series
> would be fine . . . or a 1N4148/914 would work good too. What
> ever you can put your hands on easiest.
>
>>My analog scope is not the greatest tool for capturing one shot
>>transients. I've been searching for a low cost portable or laptop DSO
>>for the last couple of days as I'd also like some proof that my ignition
>>is not occasionally missing a beat. There are a couple of offerings that
>>seem like they might be useful in the $200 to $400. range. The
>>megasquirt backup fuel injection that I'm using has datalog capability
>>to a laptop and that is opening my eyes a bit to how useful digital
>>recording can be.
>>
>>
>
> You got that right. I beat that drum every chance I get at RAC.
> We've been able to walk up to a $30,000 car for 20 years, plug
> in and have it spill it's guts. We STILL can't do that on a
> $5-$20 million bizjet's systems.
>
> Keep an eye on ebay for a TDS-210 scope. GREAT value. Even at
> new prices, the TDS-210 cost 1/2 of the first good scope I
> ever owned and it does 10 times as much. If the tornado
> sirens go off while I'm at the bench, the TDS-210 goes with
> me to the 'fraid-hole with me.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
gentlemen/ladies,
Thank you for bringing back fatigue/aching backs/soaking
earpieces and bad memories with this spate of Adcock range era items.
Who said he enjoyed flying the Adcock range? That enjoyment ends almost
instantly the minute you're paid for it and it's endless.
Can I say "consolan"?
Ferg
PS: Old Bob - what was that mnemonic for? (We had very few airway beacons).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
> I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as
recommended
> below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd
like
> and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise
impressive
> specs.
Ken....don't know if you've ever looked at the Govt surplus sales
site.....
http://www.govliquidation.com/list/e1825
Some of these o-scopes go for a pitance (well, $50 minimum,
anyway) but you have to be careful about the condition code. If you
live near one of the bases you can inspect/test the item before a
bid....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jerry2DT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Audio Panel/2 Comms |
List,
Does anyone have a schematic kicking around for hooking up an Audio Panel
and 2 Comms? I've pretty much made my own, but would just like to compare...
Mine is PS Engineering PMA6000/ ICOM A200's
Jerry Cochran
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Audio Panel/2 Comms |
Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>
> List,
>
>
> Does anyone have a schematic kicking around for hooking up an Audio Panel
> and 2 Comms? I've pretty much made my own, but would just like to compare...
> Mine is PS Engineering PMA6000/ ICOM A200's
The PMA6000 comes with the necessary schematic. Are you looking for the
exact pin-to-pin wiring list for the A200s connected to the PMA6000?
There should be only about 5 wires to each A200:
1. mic audio
2. headphone audio
3. PTT
4. mic ground
5. headphone audio and PTT ground
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Audio Panel/2 Comms |
Hi Jerry,
The standard PMA-6000 wiring diagram is pretty good and shows the hooks for
both comms. It can be downloaded at their website.
Cheers,
Stein.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
>Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:06 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Audio Panel/2 Comms
>
>
>List,
>
>
>Does anyone have a schematic kicking around for hooking up an Audio Panel
>and 2 Comms? I've pretty much made my own, but would just like to
>compare...
>Mine is PS Engineering PMA6000/ ICOM A200's
>
>Jerry Cochran
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Garmin 296 power/battery |
I am up grading my RV-6A from a Garmin 295 to a 296 and have a question for
you battery knowledgeable types.
I plan to hard wire the power/data cord into the airplane just as I did the
295. The 295 uses AA alkaline batteries. They are only used when the unit is
turned on without the master being on. -like loading a flight route. - and
are backup if needed.
The 296 uses a Lithium-ion re-chargeable battery which will be recharged
each time the master is on and will be used very a little as described
above. Will this constant charging and little use destroy a lithium-ion
battery? Do I need to remove the unit and cycle the batteries occasionally?
Any suggestions?
Dale Ensing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
>
>Well I'm happy to report that I put a diode in the feed to the zener on
>both homebuilt OVP modules and I have not seen a nuisance OV trip since.
>I have started the engine numerous times while chasing some oil leaks
>and other issues so I think the problem is licked and I recommend the
>mod. Thanks again Bob!
Thank you for taking time to observe a condition, hypothesize possible
root causes and conduct experiments to confirm/deny the hypothesis.
It's a rare instance that the designer-manufacturer-user loop can be
tightly closed for the purpose of chasing the bugs out of a design
or product. It's all too common that the disappointed user throws
up their hands and goes off to try something else while the supplier
is held in isolated ignorance for data that would help them evolve
the product.
>I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as recommended
>below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd like
>and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise impressive
>specs. At the moment I'm trying to catch sporadic extra spark events
>that I suspect may be occuring in my electronic ignition. Has anybody
>used one of the low cost PC laptop scopes for chasing such gremlins?
>Some of the PC scopes have larger memory and are less costly than a used
>tektronix. I presume that a larger memory is more useful than a fast
>sample rate for ignition work. An intriguing example of one of the
>pricer units is at http://www.linkinstruments.com/oscilloscope21.htm#pricing
>
>thank you for any thoughts or recommendations
The 1K of memory isn't a big restriction for capturing one screen
worth of data . . . but the task you've cited sounds like a
job for high speed data acquisition. One of my favorite tools of
yesteryear was a product by Base2 Electronics that ran off
the extended performance parallel port of a Win95 machine.
It would take 8, 12-bit samples 1000 times a second and throw
the numbers to a column delimited text file on the hard drive.
If I tied all 8 channels together, I could get 8000 samples
per second. I successfully chased a lot of gremlins out of
Beechjets with this tool. Unfortunately, the company didn't
upgrade to stay compatible with newer hardware and operating
systems and I've not found a single product that even approaches
the capability and low cost of that device ($125 with software).
I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
I'm going to add a diode to the schematic for the OVPM
this weekend. Thanks for doing the legwork on this!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
Looking for a Cheap 10 or 12 bit ADC, the "starter kits" from here are
pretty good. 4 channel I think and as you described, work on a serial
port... Also think they have a USB version
http://www.dataq.com/
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM nuisance trips during engine start
-->
>
>Well I'm happy to report that I put a diode in the feed to the zener on
>both homebuilt OVP modules and I have not seen a nuisance OV trip since.
>I have started the engine numerous times while chasing some oil leaks
>and other issues so I think the problem is licked and I recommend the
>mod. Thanks again Bob!
Thank you for taking time to observe a condition, hypothesize possible
root causes and conduct experiments to confirm/deny the hypothesis.
It's a rare instance that the designer-manufacturer-user loop can be
tightly closed for the purpose of chasing the bugs out of a design
or product. It's all too common that the disappointed user throws
up their hands and goes off to try something else while the supplier
is held in isolated ignorance for data that would help them evolve
the product.
>I have been searching for a used TDS-210 digital scope as recommended
>below but they seem to be commanding a bit higher price than I'd like
>and I notice they only have a 1K memory despite otherwise impressive
>specs. At the moment I'm trying to catch sporadic extra spark events
>that I suspect may be occuring in my electronic ignition. Has anybody
>used one of the low cost PC laptop scopes for chasing such gremlins?
>Some of the PC scopes have larger memory and are less costly than a
>used tektronix. I presume that a larger memory is more useful than a
>fast sample rate for ignition work. An intriguing example of one of the
>pricer units is at
>http://www.linkinstruments.com/oscilloscope21.htm#pricing
>
>thank you for any thoughts or recommendations
The 1K of memory isn't a big restriction for capturing one screen
worth of data . . . but the task you've cited sounds like a
job for high speed data acquisition. One of my favorite tools of
yesteryear was a product by Base2 Electronics that ran off
the extended performance parallel port of a Win95 machine.
It would take 8, 12-bit samples 1000 times a second and throw
the numbers to a column delimited text file on the hard drive.
If I tied all 8 channels together, I could get 8000 samples
per second. I successfully chased a lot of gremlins out of
Beechjets with this tool. Unfortunately, the company didn't
upgrade to stay compatible with newer hardware and operating
systems and I've not found a single product that even approaches
the capability and low cost of that device ($125 with software).
I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
I'm going to add a diode to the schematic for the OVPM
this weekend. Thanks for doing the legwork on this!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
> and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
> product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
> for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
> an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
> port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
How about doing it in such a way that it is universal. It is a small
thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that it will not run on
any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
You know, if you give it some intelligence and then put it on the
network you end up with some seriously cool remote data collection. Now
with it being on the other side of an IP connection you can write a Java
front-end that will run on anything.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>> I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
>> and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
>> product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
>> for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
>> an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
>> port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
>>
>>
>
>How about doing it in such a way that it is universal. It is a small
>thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that it will not run on
>any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
>
>You know, if you give it some intelligence and then put it on the
>network you end up with some seriously cool remote data collection. Now
>with it being on the other side of an IP connection you can write a Java
>front-end that will run on anything.
>
>
>
Well, Brian, it sounds like you just talked yourself into a job....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | guy fulton <truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
Chances are if the program runs in W95 you will be
successful running it in linux, using wine.
--- Charlie England wrote:
> England
>
> Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
> Lloyd
> >
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I've discussed this project with my software
> guy (father-in-law)
> >> and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB
> version of this
> >> product. In the mean time, I don't have any
> good recommendations
> >> for you. If I run across something, I'll post
> it. Hmmm, got
> >> an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has
> an EPP parallel
> >> port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying
> around here somewhere.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >How about doing it in such a way that it is
> universal. It is a small
> >thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that
> it will not run on
> >any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
> >
> >You know, if you give it some intelligence and then
> put it on the
> >network you end up with some seriously cool remote
> data collection. Now
> >with it being on the other side of an IP connection
> you can write a Java
> >front-end that will run on anything.
> >
> >
> >
> Well, Brian, it sounds like you just talked
> yourself into a job....
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
guy fulton wrote:
>
> Chances are if the program runs in W95 you will be
> successful running it in linux, using wine.
Not if you are dealing with drivers and hardware it won't.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Radio noise with HID lights |
Hi Bob and all,
A buddy is submitting the following :
He installed two auto-conversion HID lights on his MCR 01 gear legs. The
ballast boxes are in the fuselage, with 18 inch high tension leads. The
VHF antenna is under the fuselage, about 5-7 feet behind the boxes.
He is experiencing radio noise at frequencies below 120 MHz. Noise is
not audible during lights warmup, only when warm.
He tried feeding the HID boxes with an independant battery, to no avail.
Noise is heard also with a handheld radio.
Any idea how to work around this problem ?
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Avionics=Black Art |
Angier,
I've taken the liberty of forwarding your question to the AeroElectric-List
on the Matronics list server. This list is moderated by Bob Nuckolls and
read by many 'lectric-smart people (I'm a reader, but not one of the
'lectric-smart ones). Hopefully someone there can answer your question, and
you might consider joining the list -- lots of good info there.
Regards,
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greenbacks, Ltd. [mailto:N4ZQ(at)comcast.net]
> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 23:23
> Subject: Re: Avionics=Black Art
>
>
> Before igniting a spirited discussion on the subject of wiring a
> panel, I'll cheerfully disclose that I have no formal training and
> have a hard time trying to explain how an electron moves from one
> place to another. This said, how do we resolve an apparent conflict.
> The technical wizards at Garmin say in no uncertain terms that with
> shielded cables (comm primarily) the shield must be grounded at both
> ends. Other technical wizards at L3/Goodrich Avionics(WX500
> Stormscope) are adamant that shielded cables (Tx/Rx) must only be
> grounded at one end. In the case of the Wx500 talking the the MX20,
> the Tx cable is to the shielded at the processor end only and the Rx
> cable shielded at the MX20 end only. Never mind the fact that the
> WX500 install manual calls out for these cables to be shielded at
> both ends.
>
> I suspect there may be a ground loop potential in here somewhere and
> would welcome feedback from anyone one on the list who actually makes
> a living do'in this stuff day to day.
>
> I've got the WX500 up and running on the bench and haven't blown the
> thing up yet so maybe there's hope. ):
>
> Angier Ames
> N4ZQ
> N3ZQ
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio noise with HID lights |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>A buddy is submitting the following :
>
>He installed two auto-conversion HID lights on his MCR 01 gear legs. The
>ballast boxes are in the fuselage, with 18 inch high tension leads. The
>VHF antenna is under the fuselage, about 5-7 feet behind the boxes.
>He is experiencing radio noise at frequencies below 120 MHz. Noise is
>not audible during lights warmup, only when warm.
>He tried feeding the HID boxes with an independant battery, to no avail.
>Noise is heard also with a handheld radio.
>Any idea how to work around this problem ?
The usual approach is to take the device to the RF
lab to research the propagation mode for noise
and then deduce mitigation techniques. It's exceedingly
difficult to offer specific recommendations
without putting one's hands on the hardware
and probing it's characteristics with the
appropriate tools.
The broad-brush advice would include things
like shielded enclosures and filtered penetrations
for wires. However, one needs to be mindful of
possible deleterious effects of filters
on proper operation of the system. He could
try ferrite beads on the leads, and enclosing
all the electronics in a metal box.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Bob - As a matter of fact I do use a 486 windows95 laptop to talk to
cars and my airplane - which mostly thinks it is still a car ;) It
has a "normal" or "bidirectional" choice for the printer port but
doesn't specifically list an EPP choice like I have seen on other
machines. I may talk to you about the Base2 module after I get a chance
to look into my ignition situation some more. I'd happily find a USB
equipped machine if you develop a datalogging circuit or kit for that
however this prompted me to start searching a bit differently.
http://www.picotech.com/low-cost-data-loggers.html is interesting.
It looks like Pico offers a $100. parallel port device that may run
20kS/sec on the 8 bit version. (slightly slower on the 12 bit version)
It can dump to windows, Excel, (slowly) or DOS. I will study the manual
tonight for the sustained transfer speed and length but the biggest
obvious limitation seems to be that it is set up for 0 to 5 volt inputs
and would need some signal conditioning..
Thank you everyone who made suggestions. You fellows in the USA sure
have a tremendous advantage in availability and cost of "toys" compared
to us in Canada. Import costs are often prohibitive.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
snip
> The 1K of memory isn't a big restriction for capturing one screen
> worth of data . . . but the task you've cited sounds like a
> job for high speed data acquisition. One of my favorite tools of
> yesteryear was a product by Base2 Electronics that ran off
> the extended performance parallel port of a Win95 machine.
> It would take 8, 12-bit samples 1000 times a second and throw
> the numbers to a column delimited text file on the hard drive.
>
> If I tied all 8 channels together, I could get 8000 samples
> per second. I successfully chased a lot of gremlins out of
> Beechjets with this tool. Unfortunately, the company didn't
> upgrade to stay compatible with newer hardware and operating
> systems and I've not found a single product that even approaches
> the capability and low cost of that device ($125 with software).
>
> I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
> and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
> product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
> for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
> an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
> port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
>
> I'm going to add a diode to the schematic for the OVPM
> this weekend. Thanks for doing the legwork on this!
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: School stuff |
>
>
>Sorry for getting so far afield. Back to electrical systems.
No apologies are due. I sincerely hope that
folks who attend to this List understand that the
future of our craft, indeed the future of the country
is dependent upon the ability of honorable citizens
to discover and exploit simple-ideas. This is a
cradle to grave process of education wherein everyone
is constantly presented with opportunities to be teachers
and students.
While specific topics here on the List focus on
things electric, the foundations upon which learning
takes place are illustrated and demonstrated
by many examples from a variety of disciplines. I
appreciate anyone's citations of examples where good
learning takes place. It it contributes to our
collective toolbox.
I've oft suggested that knowledge is the only commodity
that grows in value the more it is exchanged amongst
those who use it in honorable ways. E.g., if one
had a cure for cancer, it stands to reason that the
greatest benefit happens when the greatest numbers
of users have the knowledge.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio noise with HID lights |
>> Any idea how to work around this problem ?
>>
>
> The usual approach is to take the device to the RF
> lab to research the propagation mode for noise
> and then deduce mitigation techniques. It's exceedingly
> difficult to offer specific recommendations
> without putting one's hands on the hardware
> and probing it's characteristics with the
> appropriate tools.
>
> The broad-brush advice would include things
> like shielded enclosures and filtered penetrations
> for wires. However, one needs to be mindful of
> possible deleterious effects of filters
> on proper operation of the system. He could
> try ferrite beads on the leads, and enclosing
> all the electronics in a metal box.
>
Bob,
Thank you for your quick answer. I'm passing it on to him.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | antenna construction |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
Hi all,
I'm sure I ran across a web site with information on
constructing your own antennas for aircraft use (wingtip
and/or inside a fiberglass fuselage). I can't seem to find
the site, though. Anyone have a lead on this?
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna construction |
If your fuselage is composite and has the requisite inside diameter,
you can take advantage of a loop antenna design that has gain, lower
noise, and requires no ground plane:
www.DaveMorris.com/MorrisComLoop
Dave Morris
At 09:30 AM 4/15/2006, you wrote:
>
>Hi all,
> I'm sure I ran across a web site with information on
>constructing your own antennas for aircraft use (wingtip
>and/or inside a fiberglass fuselage). I can't seem to find
>the site, though. Anyone have a lead on this?
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Dj
>
>--
>Dj Merrill - N1JOV
>Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
>http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
>
>"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Radio noise with HID lights |
One note about HID's, they are a High voltage type light, and the "starter"
and "ballast" use a pulse mechanism to start them and then keep them lit.
It usually provides 50-80V to the lamp its self, but at very low current.
The eletronics use some form of "step up" converter, They usually call these
things "boost pumps" because they cycle at a very fast rate (creating EMI,
RFI) to create the additional voltage required. If the Ballast is not
"shielded" then you are asking for this type of interference. Is the
Ballast plastic or metal?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise with HID lights
--> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>> Any idea how to work around this problem ?
>>
>
> The usual approach is to take the device to the RF
> lab to research the propagation mode for noise
> and then deduce mitigation techniques. It's exceedingly
> difficult to offer specific recommendations
> without putting one's hands on the hardware
> and probing it's characteristics with the
> appropriate tools.
>
> The broad-brush advice would include things
> like shielded enclosures and filtered penetrations
> for wires. However, one needs to be mindful of
> possible deleterious effects of filters
> on proper operation of the system. He could
> try ferrite beads on the leads, and enclosing
> all the electronics in a metal box.
>
Bob,
Thank you for your quick answer. I'm passing it on to him.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Avionics=Black Art |
Impossible to give an answer to the specific question without seeing the
diagrams for the products, but the general answer is this:
If the shield is nothing but a shield, it probably should be grounded at
only one end. The most obvious example is the shield on a magneto P-lead.
If the shield is actually the ground return for the circuit (common
occurrence for audio & RF antennas) then it must be *connected* at both
ends, which isn't necessarily the same as being *grounded* at both ends.
The most obvious example for this is headset & mic wiring to the
intercom or radio. In those cases, the shield is also the ground return
for the mic & headphones, so must be connected to both the intercom &
the jack, but it must *not* be *grounded* at the jack; that's why you
are instructed to use insulating washers on the jacks. This is where
the ground loop can show up, when there would be 2 paths for the return
current to follow: the shield line & the airframe.
(hope that didn't just stir up more mud in the water...)
Mark & Lisa wrote:
>
>Angier,
>
>I've taken the liberty of forwarding your question to the AeroElectric-List
>on the Matronics list server. This list is moderated by Bob Nuckolls and
>read by many 'lectric-smart people (I'm a reader, but not one of the
>'lectric-smart ones). Hopefully someone there can answer your question, and
>you might consider joining the list -- lots of good info there.
>
>Regards,
>
>Mark & Lisa Sletten
>Legacy FG N828LM
>http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Greenbacks, Ltd. [mailto:N4ZQ(at)comcast.net]
>>Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 23:23
>>Subject: Re: Avionics=Black Art
>>
>>
>>Before igniting a spirited discussion on the subject of wiring a
>>panel, I'll cheerfully disclose that I have no formal training and
>>have a hard time trying to explain how an electron moves from one
>>place to another. This said, how do we resolve an apparent conflict.
>>The technical wizards at Garmin say in no uncertain terms that with
>>shielded cables (comm primarily) the shield must be grounded at both
>>ends. Other technical wizards at L3/Goodrich Avionics(WX500
>>Stormscope) are adamant that shielded cables (Tx/Rx) must only be
>>grounded at one end. In the case of the Wx500 talking the the MX20,
>>the Tx cable is to the shielded at the processor end only and the Rx
>>cable shielded at the MX20 end only. Never mind the fact that the
>>WX500 install manual calls out for these cables to be shielded at
>>both ends.
>>
>>I suspect there may be a ground loop potential in here somewhere and
>>would welcome feedback from anyone one on the list who actually makes
>>a living do'in this stuff day to day.
>>
>>I've got the WX500 up and running on the bench and haven't blown the
>>thing up yet so maybe there's hope. ):
>>
>>Angier Ames
>>N4ZQ
>>N3ZQ
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | guy fulton <truecolor32bit(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM nuisance trips during engine start |
ndiswrapper was originally written for pcmcia cards
using the windows drivers .inf to provide windows
speific hardware full function in linux. ndiswrapper
found to provide function to other types of hardware,
serial, parallel, usb, in linux. I have successfully
used it many times, using wine for graphical
interface. No more than a suggestion.
guy
--- Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
>
>
> guy fulton wrote:
> fulton
> >
> > Chances are if the program runs in W95 you will be
> > successful running it in linux, using wine.
>
> Not if you are dealing with drivers and hardware it
> won't.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline
> Way
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788
> (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny
> of petty things . . .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio noise with HID lights |
Alan K. Adamson a crit :
>
> One note about HID's, they are a High voltage type light, and the "starter"
> and "ballast" use a pulse mechanism to start them and then keep them lit.
> It usually provides 50-80V to the lamp its self, but at very low current.
>
> The eletronics use some form of "step up" converter, They usually call these
> things "boost pumps" because they cycle at a very fast rate (creating EMI,
> RFI) to create the additional voltage required. If the Ballast is not
> "shielded" then you are asking for this type of interference. Is the
> Ballast plastic or metal?
>
>
Alan,
Thank you for your input.
I don't know what my buddy's ballast case is made of. Il ask him.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: DIY data acquisition (DAS) systems |
>
>
>Looking for a Cheap 10 or 12 bit ADC, the "starter kits" from here are
>pretty good. 4 channel I think and as you described, work on a serial
>port... Also think they have a USB version
>
>http://www.dataq.com/
>
>Alan
There are a LOT of very capable products on the market for
gathering and storing data into computers. The one Alan
cited is an up-and-comer. One of my personal favorites for
6-7 years has been . . .
http://weedtech.com/
I have about a dozen of his various modules on the shelf
and they've been exceedingly handy for getting a system
assembled quickly.
Here's an example of a multi-channel temperature, voltage
and current measuring system along with some remote control
features I crafted a few years ago with Weeder Tech modules:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/DAS/Weedtech_DAS_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/DAS/Weedtech_DAS_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/DAS/Weedtech_DAS_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/DAS/Weedtech_DAS_4.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/DAS/Weedtech_DAS_5.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/DAS/Weedtech_DAS_6.jpg
This sat out in the unheated nose of a Beechjet. In pictures
5 and 6 you can just see portions of power resistors bolted
to the base plate that were used as heaters (under software
control of the same program that runs the DAS) that kept
innards of the enclosure above -10C.
This and MANY similar products are really good for gathering
data relatively sedate rates. In this case, one measurement
per second.
The problem Ken is chasing requires much faster sampling
rates. Probably 100/sec minimum, 500-1000 would be really
good. There aren't too many products out there in the
$100 class that will run that fast.
That's the product class we're brainstorming about
right now.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > I've discussed this project with my software guy (father-in-law)
> > and we're going to see if we can do a WinXP/USB version of this
> > product. In the mean time, I don't have any good recommendations
> > for you. If I run across something, I'll post it. Hmmm, got
> > an old laptop you could load Win95 on and has an EPP parallel
> > port? I think my Base2 Modules are laying around here somewhere.
>
>How about doing it in such a way that it is universal. It is a small
>thing but as soon as you say WinXP/USB I know that it will not run on
>any of my computers (Mac, Sun, Linux/Intel).
Win/USB is the major market . . . and FTDI's drivers for making
USB masquerade as a serial COM port are getting better all the
time. I have one product right now that's been a real hassle
when customers want to put it on a Win95 or even Windows for
Workgroups! It's a shoo-in on XP and 2000.
The biggest filter of operating systems will be a GUI we'll
provide which will be crafted for the latest Win OS and how ever
far back as we can make it go without undue labor. However,
the communications architecture will be open and anyone who
want's to craft their own interface. It's usually no big deal
to take a series of streaming data and push it to a hard drive
for later import to spread-sheet-and-graphics of choice. The
DAS will put out ASCII integers in comma de-limited strings.
>You know, if you give it some intelligence and then put it on the
>network you end up with some seriously cool remote data collection. Now
>with it being on the other side of an IP connection you can write a Java
>front-end that will run on anything.
This needs to be a $100 gizmo. My #2 software guy is working
with some I.P. address based hardware and development tools, we'll
see what he comes up with. Obviously, that's the wave of
the future. I'm going to be working with folks in flight
test evaluating some quick-n-dirty installations of DAS systems
where we'll try an 802.11b wireless link. At the moment,
these are much bulkier and more expensive than I'd like to
offer to my target market: OBAM aircraft.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | newbie with question |
Would like to have some 12vdc, 15mamp LED indicator lights to show my circuit breakers
are working.......how do I put the lights into each circuit off the individual
systems without burning the lights out at full battery power or alternator
output?
Must be some kind of capacitor or resistor to reduce the power to each light?
And if so, how to determine which kind and what size? I will have seven breakers
in a row and want the lites over the top of the individual breakers.
Thanking everyone in advance for any assistance to get me up and running..........just
joined the aeroelectric forum today.
Hausding, Sid
Avid Speedwing N204S
Alpena, Mi 49707
avidsid(at)yahoo.com
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Freeman <flyeyes(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | Troubleshooting ANR headset wierdness |
I have a question for the hive mind.
I recently got around to adding the LEMO/Redel/Bose jacks for
headsets in my RV-8. The airplane was (and still is) wired for
stereo with standard jacks and a PS Engineering intercom. The
standard jacks work well.
My old Bose Series II ANR headset works fine plugged into the
standard jacks and using its adaptor and battery pack.
After discussing with the Bose tech support whether I should wire
into the existing jacks or all the way back to the intercom, they
said it didn't matter, so I took the easy way out and wired to the
existing jacks.
When I plug the headset into the 6-pin ANR connector, all is well
(good audio, good mike sidetone, etc.) until I turn the ANR on.
With the ANR turned on, I lose audio in the right earpiece (ANR
itself seems to work fine).
The headset works normally when plugged into the standard connectors
(through its adaptor) and battery pack, ANR and all.
All the connections seem to ohm out properly, although I have been
known to miswire things in the past.
The relevant wiring diagram can be found here on page 18:
bose.com/pdf/customer_service/owners/og_headset_x.pdf
TIA
James Freeman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: antenna construction |
On 15 Apr 2006, at 10:30, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I'm sure I ran across a web site with information on
> constructing your own antennas for aircraft use (wingtip
> and/or inside a fiberglass fuselage). I can't seem to find
> the site, though. Anyone have a lead on this?
http://www.rst-engr.com/
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | newbie with question |
Welcome to the group.
Since no one has answered this one yet, I'll take a stab at it.
Put a small (current limiting) resistor in series with the LED. This
arrangement will light the LED whenever the fuse is seeing power (+12V)
i.e.: fuse is in and not blown (assuming of course that the other end of the
circuit is adequately connected to ground.) I wouldn't think the value of
the resistor is critical if using standard low current LEDs. 1000 ohm
(brown, black, red, gold or silver) is common (in my experience) and a good
starting point. The LED is polarity sensitive but not destructive if you
wire it in backwards. So if the circuit doesn't work, try turning the LED
around. Sometimes the LEDs indicate polarity with a flat spot or lead
length. So only proceed with soldering once you figure out the correct
orientation on the test bench.
Good luck.
Worth exactly what you paid for it. Use at your own risk.
Bevan
RV7A finishing kit
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sid
Hausding
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 12:26 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: newbie with question
-->
Would like to have some 12vdc, 15mamp LED indicator lights to show my
circuit breakers are working.......how do I put the lights into each circuit
off the individual systems without burning the lights out at full battery
power or alternator output?
Must be some kind of capacitor or resistor to reduce the power to each
light? And if so, how to determine which kind and what size? I will have
seven breakers in a row and want the lites over the top of the individual
breakers.
Thanking everyone in advance for any assistance to get me up and
running..........just joined the aeroelectric forum today.
Hausding, Sid
Avid Speedwing N204S
Alpena, Mi 49707
avidsid(at)yahoo.com
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
Funny thing that this topic was fresh on the List. I just
got an e-mail notice from another of my favorite DAS hardware
suppliers that points me to another of their $hundred$ wonders.
See:
http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.html
Except for very demanding speeds, this critter is the
one to beat . . . and it isn't going to be me that does it!
I've ordered one to play with.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/14/06 |
I believe there are small incandescent bulbs that (reportedly) reliably
emulate the color mix and spectrum of sunlight. I don't know if anyone has
come up with an LED that does that as well. I was wondering if anyone has
put such a light in position or on a gooseneck fixture that would allow it
to illuminate a PDA or tablet used for moving map/navigation, etc. My HP
PDA is actually at its most readable in direct sunlight. It's when it's up
under instrument cowling, it can be difficult to see map details on it. I
was hoping to use a tablet PC (Motion or similar) fixed permanently in the
center of my panel with one of the currently available nav software packages
(Anywheremap, etc.) as my primary, large screen, navigation system. If such
a light could be positioned where it would cast "sunlight" on the tablet
screen, it might be a near all around answer regardless of heading and the
position of the "actual" sun.
What am I missing here, if anything??
Regards,
Lee...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Win/USB is the major market . . . and FTDI's drivers for making
> USB masquerade as a serial COM port are getting better all the
> time. I have one product right now that's been a real hassle
> when customers want to put it on a Win95 or even Windows for
> Workgroups! It's a shoo-in on XP and 2000.
Well, you are talking to someone who has spent most of his life making
devices and services universally available over the network. There is a
reason people have embraced the Internet; it is the universal vehicle
for communication between devices.
> The biggest filter of operating systems will be a GUI we'll
> provide which will be crafted for the latest Win OS and how ever
> far back as we can make it go without undue labor. However,
> the communications architecture will be open and anyone who
> want's to craft their own interface. It's usually no big deal
> to take a series of streaming data and push it to a hard drive
> for later import to spread-sheet-and-graphics of choice. The
> DAS will put out ASCII integers in comma de-limited strings.
For the GUI, use Java. The reason is, you really will be able to run it
on windows, Mac, or any of the flavors of Unix/Linux out there. It has
all the hooks to allow you to communicate over a network connection
regardless of whether it is serial RS-232 (PPP), ethernet, USB,
Firewire, Bluetooth, or WiFi (IEEE 802.11[a|b|g]).
>> You know, if you give it some intelligence and then put it on the
>> network you end up with some seriously cool remote data collection. Now
>> with it being on the other side of an IP connection you can write a Java
>> front-end that will run on anything.
>
> This needs to be a $100 gizmo. My #2 software guy is working
> with some I.P. address based hardware and development tools, we'll
> see what he comes up with. Obviously, that's the wave of
> the future.
Back when I started out building routers and network communications
devices back in the late '80s it was the wave of the future. Now it is
the wave of the present.
And to make it easier, go look at the Embedded Java vendors. I was using
the Dallas Semiconductor "Tini" board. It costs about $50 but is a
complete network computer for sensor data collection including
processor, memory, network connection (ethernet), programming language
(Java), libraries, etc. It has all the basic features to do what you
want to do including the availability of a web server right on the Tini
board. Heck, do your data collection right on the board and have it
available via the net immediately. No muss, no fuss, and no special
software for the PC that you are using to look at the data.
See: http://www.maxim-ic.com/TINIplatform.cfm
It already has ethernet, serial, CAN2.0b bus, 1-Wire sensor bus, etc.
This is how I would start.
> I'm going to be working with folks in flight
> test evaluating some quick-n-dirty installations of DAS systems
> where we'll try an 802.11b wireless link. At the moment,
> these are much bulkier and more expensive than I'd like to
> offer to my target market: OBAM aircraft.
I happen to be talking with an aircraft manufacturer on something
similar, basically data linking data collection in the aircraft to the
ground using 802.11. It is fairly easy to get ranges of a couple of
miles using 802.11 but mostly I am setting it up to do an automatic
data-dump whenever the aircraft comes within range of the base station.
I would be happy to help you on your project if you like.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/14/06 |
Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
about every LED imaginable and then some.
As for LED's on a gooseneck, the RV guys do it all the time. They buy the
cheap USB flex lights and clip off the connector, add a resistor and mount
it with an adel clamp on the side of the canopy or fuselage.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 8:52 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/14/06
-->
I believe there are small incandescent bulbs that (reportedly) reliably
emulate the color mix and spectrum of sunlight. I don't know if anyone has
come up with an LED that does that as well. I was wondering if anyone has
put such a light in position or on a gooseneck fixture that would allow it
to illuminate a PDA or tablet used for moving map/navigation, etc. My HP
PDA is actually at its most readable in direct sunlight. It's when it's up
under instrument cowling, it can be difficult to see map details on it. I
was hoping to use a tablet PC (Motion or similar) fixed permanently in the
center of my panel with one of the currently available nav software packages
(Anywheremap, etc.) as my primary, large screen, navigation system. If such
a light could be positioned where it would cast "sunlight" on the tablet
screen, it might be a near all around answer regardless of heading and the
position of the "actual" sun.
What am I missing here, if anything??
Regards,
Lee...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 04/14/06 |
Opps, helps if you post the link...
http://www.ledtronics.com/
Alan - sorry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K.
Adamson
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs -
04/14/06
-->
Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
about every LED imaginable and then some.
As for LED's on a gooseneck, the RV guys do it all the time. They buy the
cheap USB flex lights and clip off the connector, add a resistor and mount
it with an adel clamp on the side of the canopy or fuselage.
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a 15mamp,
12dcv device to show power to the system is there?
Sid
--------------------
"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
Opps, helps if you post the link...
http://www.ledtronics.com/
Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
about every LED imaginable and then some.
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
On 15 Apr 2006, at 21:52, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> yak(at)lloyd.com>
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> Win/USB is the major market . . . and FTDI's drivers for making
>> USB masquerade as a serial COM port are getting better all the
>> time. I have one product right now that's been a real hassle
>> when customers want to put it on a Win95 or even Windows for
>> Workgroups! It's a shoo-in on XP and 2000.
>
> Well, you are talking to someone who has spent most of his life making
> devices and services universally available over the network. There
> is a
> reason people have embraced the Internet; it is the universal vehicle
> for communication between devices.
>
>> The biggest filter of operating systems will be a GUI we'll
>> provide which will be crafted for the latest Win OS and how ever
>> far back as we can make it go without undue labor. However,
>> the communications architecture will be open and anyone who
>> want's to craft their own interface. It's usually no big deal
>> to take a series of streaming data and push it to a hard drive
>> for later import to spread-sheet-and-graphics of choice. The
>> DAS will put out ASCII integers in comma de-limited strings.
>
> For the GUI, use Java. The reason is, you really will be able to
> run it
> on windows, Mac, or any of the flavors of Unix/Linux out there. It has
> all the hooks to allow you to communicate over a network connection
> regardless of whether it is serial RS-232 (PPP), ethernet, USB,
> Firewire, Bluetooth, or WiFi (IEEE 802.11[a|b|g]).
I'm interested in a reasonably priced system to record analog data
that I can hook up to a laptop running Mac OS X. I don't own any
computers that run Windows, and won't purchase one just for this task.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Wanna roll your own Engine monitoring system? |
I knew I'd seen this before, but just stumbled on the link to it again.
It's what most of the guys run at Reno for telemetry :)....Pretty cool stuff
http://www.rcatsystems.com/
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | LED power....... |
Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas for powering
up the little buggers.....
anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices and can
tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning out......?
Sid
-----------------------
Sid Hausding wrote:
Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a 15mamp,
12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
Sid
--------------------
"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
Opps, helps if you post the link...
http://www.ledtronics.com/
Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
about every LED imaginable and then some.
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
Hi Sid
The vast majority of LED's require a current limiting resistor. A few
may have one included for example a panel indicator that specifically
says 12 volts. The operating voltage of an LED is around 1.7 volts or so
depending on the color. I usually limit the current to 8 to 15 ma. for
general use. 1000 ohms might be in the ballpark for an indicator but
play around with it. Radio shack used to have cheap paper back books
(written by Forrest Mims ?) that are great for learning things like
this. There are also a number of web sites on using LED's.
Ken
Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas for powering
up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices and can
tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning out......?
> Sid
> -----------------------
>
>Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a
15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>Sid
>--------------------
>
>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>
>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>
>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>
>
>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
Hi Sid-
To properly power an LED or even several in series, you simple provide an
appropriate amount of resistance in series with the correctly-biased LED(s) that
results in an actual current flow of about 20 mA. You can also reduce their
brightness by using more resistance, or less resistance, which results in
overdriving the LEDs somewhat. This will likely shorten their lifespan, but what
is 50% of maybe 100K hrs in the life of an airplane? When I first got
interested in playing with these things for my RV, I ordered a bunch of different
types
and colors from Marlin P Jones, got a resistor assortment from JapShack, and
did a bunch of playing with them. The parts are extremely cheap. See:
http://mpja.com/listitems.asp?dept=116&main=122
Radio Shack carries this resistor assortment- you can make virtually any
resistance by combining resistors:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062304&cp=&origkw=resis
tor&kw=resistor&kwCatId=2032058&parentPage=search
If that ugly URL doesn't work, go to Radioshack.com and search for 271-308.
If you can do Excel, I've got a SS that lists required resistances for
various types and series strings of LEDs. Will send copy direct & if anyone else
interested will send also...
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | LED power....... |
Free cheap beer all day for Mark...........yay, and thank you profusely for getting
me started. Just too lazy to review all the old manuals and relearn what
I had forgotten years ago. You have provided me with the fast step to getting
me back up to speed..........Happy Easter to you and yours and this list.
Sid
Avid Speedwing
----------------------------------------
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com wrote:
Hi Sid-
To properly power an LED or even several in series, you simple provide an
appropriate amount of resistance in series with the correctly-biased LED(s) that
results in an actual current flow of about 20 mA. You can also reduce their
brightness by using more resistance, or less resistance, which results in
overdriving the LEDs somewhat. This will likely shorten their lifespan, but what
is 50% of maybe 100K hrs in the life of an airplane? When I first got
interested in playing with these things for my RV, I ordered a bunch of different
types
and colors from Marlin P Jones, got a resistor assortment from JapShack, and
did a bunch of playing with them. The parts are extremely cheap. See:
http://mpja.com/listitems.asp?dept=116&main=122
Radio Shack carries this resistor assortment- you can make virtually any
resistance by combining resistors:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062304&cp=&origkw=resis
tor&kw=resistor&kwCatId=2032058&parentPage=search
If that ugly URL doesn't work, go to Radioshack.com and search for 271-308.
If you can do Excel, I've got a SS that lists required resistances for
various types and series strings of LEDs. Will send copy direct & if anyone else
interested will send also...
Mark Phillips
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
Essentially all LEDs require some sort of current limiter. That is,
LEDs are current driven devices (rather than voltage driven like a
normal incandescent lights) and putting a voltage higher than required
to light them will cause almost instant self destruction. But it looks
like you already knew that...
That said, the LED assemblies offered on the referenced site may very
well have internal limiters, especially where they come attached to a
threaded plug that is designed to thread into an incandescent lamp socket.
Most single (unassembled) LEDs do NOT have an internal limiter and are
designed to work with something between 10-30 mA through them. This can
be accomplished in a number of ways, but the simplest is just to wire a
resistor in series with the LED. When you purchase an LED it should
come with specifications that tell you what the operating voltage is
(the voltage that it lights at) and the rated maximum current. Let's
take a sample red LED with an operating voltage of 1.7V and a maximum
current of 30 mA. Let's further assume that you want to operate this at
something less than the maximum current to allow for high temperatures
in the cockpit and choose 20 mA (a little less than maximum brightness,
but probably still very bright). If we are operating this from the
alternator/battery voltage we can assume about 14V available (actually
12-14.5V - see below). If we just hooked this to the LED it would be
very bright (for a millisecond or two), then very dark :-) . We need
to limit the current to the aforementioned 20 mA.
So... We take the available voltage (14V) and subtract what the LED
needs (1.7V) to get the voltage we need to "discard" (12.3V). We then
calculate the resistor we need to allow 20 mA with this voltage
(12.3V). Using Ohm's law (V=I*R) and rearranging (R=V/I) we plug the
numbers into the equation to get 12.3V/0.02A=615 ohms. That is not one
of the standard available values of resistor so we choose a value that
is close (620 ohms for 5% resistors or 619 ohms for 1% resistors). Now
we have a value but we still have to calculate the power "discarded" in
the resistor so we can get one that will not burn up as soon as we turn
things on. Power in watts is (W=V*I). Plugging the numbers in we get
12.3V * 0.02A = 0.246 W or 246 mW. Resistors come is various power
ratings and we have to choose one that is at least what we just
calculated. That means we should use 1/4W at absolute minimum.
However, if we choose the 1/4W resistor it will run very hot to
dissipate 0.246W of power - potentially shortening it's life and
reliability. So we really want to choose at least a 1/2W resistor.
That will give it some "elbow room" especially important if it will be
operating in a warm environment.
Use the same idea for any LED you may buy (different colors have
different operating voltages). Additionally, you can connect two LEDs
in series for whatever reason (lighting, etc.) and just do the same
calculations but use 3.4V (in this case 1.7V times the two LEDs) instead
of 1.7V. You can do this with several LEDs but you must allow some
series voltage to drop across the resistor (remembering that the voltage
on the aircraft bus varies from about 14.5V max. to about 12V min.). As
the voltage varies the LEDs will vary in brightness. If you have one
LED the "leftover" voltage will vary between 12.8V to 10.3V - a change
of approximately 20-25%. If you series several LEDs (say four for a
drop of 6.8V), the voltage will vary between 7.7V to 5.2V - a change of
30-50%. So do not add too many in series that you have too low a
voltage across the resistor.
Do not connect LEDs in parallel!!! If you do, the one that has a
slightly lower operating voltage will "hog" all the current - causing it
to use too much current (overheat) and be much brighter than the
other(s). If you want to wire them in parallel for some reason, use a
series resistor for each LED.
If you have more questions, please ask. :-)
Dick Tasker
Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas for powering
up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices and can
tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning out......?
> Sid
> -----------------------
>
>Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a
15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>Sid
>--------------------
>
>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>
>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>
>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>
>
>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | LED power....... |
Okay Ken,
I'm relearning some of this from a very long time ago. Its was always interesting
and still is to me, just wanted a short cut to get these dang things in
for indicator lights..........will search around and bring myself up to speed
on some of this "old memory stuff".
Happy Holiday,
Sid
--------------------------------
Ken
>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas for powering
up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices and can
tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning out......?
> Sid
> -----------------------
>
>Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a
15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>Sid
>--------------------
>
>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>
>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>
>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>
>
>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Dudley <rhdudley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
Hi Sid,
Bob Nucolls has piece on LEDs. I think that it answers many of your
questions.
Try this link: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/leds3.pdf
Regards,
Richard Dudley
-6A flying
Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas for powering
up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices and can
tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning out......?
> Sid
> -----------------------
>
>Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a
15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>Sid
>--------------------
>
>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>
>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>
>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>
>
>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | LED power....... |
you're going to be a great instructor in you "other" life.........and thanks a
million, now I don't even have to read anymore..........just follow your little
examples and "getter' done" as the cable guy says.............and a Happy Holiday
to you and the family also. Great info this morning........
Sid
I even used to know Ohm's law.......... :-)
------------------
"Richard E. Tasker" wrote:
Essentially all LEDs require some sort of current limiter. That is,
LEDs are current driven devices (rather than voltage driven like a
normal incandescent lights) and putting a voltage higher than required
to light them will cause almost instant self destruction. But it looks
like you already knew that...
That said, the LED assemblies offered on the referenced site may very
well have internal limiters, especially where they come attached to a
threaded plug that is designed to thread into an incandescent lamp socket.
Most single (unassembled) LEDs do NOT have an internal limiter and are
designed to work with something between 10-30 mA through them. This can
be accomplished in a number of ways, but the simplest is just to wire a
resistor in series with the LED. When you purchase an LED it should
come with specifications that tell you what the operating voltage is
(the voltage that it lights at) and the rated maximum current. Let's
take a sample red LED with an operating voltage of 1.7V and a maximum
current of 30 mA. Let's further assume that you want to operate this at
something less than the maximum current to allow for high temperatures
in the cockpit and choose 20 mA (a little less than maximum brightness,
but probably still very bright). If we are operating this from the
alternator/battery voltage we can assume about 14V available (actually
12-14.5V - see below). If we just hooked this to the LED it would be
very bright (for a millisecond or two), then very dark :-) . We need
to limit the current to the aforementioned 20 mA.
So... We take the available voltage (14V) and subtract what the LED
needs (1.7V) to get the voltage we need to "discard" (12.3V). We then
calculate the resistor we need to allow 20 mA with this voltage
(12.3V). Using Ohm's law (V=I*R) and rearranging (R=V/I) we plug the
numbers into the equation to get 12.3V/0.02A=615 ohms. That is not one
of the standard available values of resistor so we choose a value that
is close (620 ohms for 5% resistors or 619 ohms for 1% resistors). Now
we have a value but we still have to calculate the power "discarded" in
the resistor so we can get one that will not burn up as soon as we turn
things on. Power in watts is (W=V*I). Plugging the numbers in we get
12.3V * 0.02A = 0.246 W or 246 mW. Resistors come is various power
ratings and we have to choose one that is at least what we just
calculated. That means we should use 1/4W at absolute minimum.
However, if we choose the 1/4W resistor it will run very hot to
dissipate 0.246W of power - potentially shortening it's life and
reliability. So we really want to choose at least a 1/2W resistor.
That will give it some "elbow room" especially important if it will be
operating in a warm environment.
Use the same idea for any LED you may buy (different colors have
different operating voltages). Additionally, you can connect two LEDs
in series for whatever reason (lighting, etc.) and just do the same
calculations but use 3.4V (in this case 1.7V times the two LEDs) instead
of 1.7V. You can do this with several LEDs but you must allow some
series voltage to drop across the resistor (remembering that the voltage
on the aircraft bus varies from about 14.5V max. to about 12V min.). As
the voltage varies the LEDs will vary in brightness. If you have one
LED the "leftover" voltage will vary between 12.8V to 10.3V - a change
of approximately 20-25%. If you series several LEDs (say four for a
drop of 6.8V), the voltage will vary between 7.7V to 5.2V - a change of
30-50%. So do not add too many in series that you have too low a
voltage across the resistor.
Do not connect LEDs in parallel!!! If you do, the one that has a
slightly lower operating voltage will "hog" all the current - causing it
to use too much current (overheat) and be much brighter than the
other(s). If you want to wire them in parallel for some reason, use a
series resistor for each LED.
If you have more questions, please ask. :-)
Dick Tasker
Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas for powering
up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices and can
tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning out......?
> Sid
> -----------------------
>
>Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if most
will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power requirements
they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere on wiring in a
15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>Sid
>--------------------
>
>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>
>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>
>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>
>
>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SMITHBKN(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Connections on S704-1 Relay |
Bob,
I've looked at the picture that is available in your reference material, but
I'm still not certain I fully understand what connects to what when using
this relay for switching a SMALL auxillary battery as you show in Z-35. Your
picture shows the following connection labels:
1. (-)
2. (+)
3. COM
4. N.O.
5. N.C.
There is also a IN4005 diode wired between (-) and (+) and I think I
understand it's purpose but if someone could give me some additional information
on
exactly what devices the wires connect to I would appreciate.
Thanks,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
| From: | "John Schroeder" <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> |
Sid -
Most LEDs you get do not have the resistors needed to bias them. Sooo, you
need to do this. Most fixtures using LED's these days come with the
biasing already installed for that particular fixture/light. All of the
replacement bulbs for cars have the bias installed.
Try the following for some of the how-to stuff:
http://www.eaa724.org/TechnicalStuff%20.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/led.htm
http://members.misty.com/don/ledx.html
http://metku.net/index.html?sect=view&n=1&path=mods/ledcalc/index_eng
This should get you going.
John Schroeder
wrote:
>
> Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas
> for powering up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices
> and can tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning
> out......?
> Sid
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gary" <gkrysztopik(at)satx.rr.com> |
I recently had what I suspect is a regulator failure with an EA-81 and
Suzuki Samuri alternator. I'm not quite sure exactly what happened but many
many thanks to Bob and the list for helping out when I was wiring my plane
four or five years ago. My backup battery and backup ignition saved me and
got me to the nearest airport (twice).
I have a glass VFR panel but didn't want the complexity and weight of a
bigger aux bus. My simple little 5AH aux battery is only wired to the
backup ignition, second electric fuel pump, and tiny LCD voltmeter. It's
just enough to keep the engine running while I get my handheld radio out
(with VOR for backup nav). I wired it thru a completely different area of
the panel and firewall for complete redundancy. It is connected to the main
bus via a diode for charging. I check every preflight that the backup
battery and ignition are working. That's the good part - it worked as
intended.
I was a long time reader on the list but went thru three big moves over the
last couple years and I wasn't able to keep up with all my lists and missed
a large part of the Paul vs Bob OV discussion as well as anything that took
place since. I'm not sure whether to retain my OV module and solenoid but
I'll be reading up on things. One of my mistakes was to have a partial OV
circuit and the other was not to have sufficient and active engine
monitoring. I'm here to learn so feel free to point out any other mistakes
that we can learn from.
- OV circuit problem last year - I noticed my battery was run down because
the alternator was not charging it. I found that the alternator contactor
was not closing (used in OV circuit for internally regulated alternators per
aeroelectric schematic). I attributed the failure to a poor mounting
location - I tried to keep it simple so I put it right between the alt and
starter which was on the subaru cylinder head where there were spare
mounting holes already tapped in the head. I'm guessing excessive heat and
vibration caused the failure. I bypassed the contactor but left the OV
module in there intending to relocate the contactor. I should have
disconnected the circuit - either all in or all out.
- gnd strap problem last fall - while starting the plane, the power
fluctuated then dropped out. I traced it to a loose ground strap. Funny, I
made all my big cables per Bob's 12 ga wire wedge solder method and all held
up great. For some reason I wanted a nice braided steel ground strap so I
bought two custom length from an aircraft place for battery to firewall and
engine block to firewall. These are the ones that failed - the crimp was
loose and the strap pulled right out. Lesson - make redundant ground
straps. Another lesson - I gently tug on all bat and gnd straps preflight
but the two gnd straps were neatly tie wrapped together so when I checked
them, the good one was supporting the bad one. That's both good and bad I
guess. I mention this because the incident blew some fuses and must have
sent some spikes thru the system, possibly reducing the life of the
regulator?
- in-flight failure #1 - the other week on the way to SNF, radio blinks,
popping in headset, then panel goes black and engine gets quiet. Backup
switch on, engine comes back up and land at nearest. Probe around and find
battery contactor chattering, not able to keep bat and alt on main bus.
Probe around engine and panel for a couple hours, everything else looks ok
except alt OV breaker was popped (missed hint?). I assumed the main bus
disconnect sent a spike thru the system and popped the breaker. I had a
contactor fail before, made sense so I called around for one. No luck, so I
move cables to one side of contactor to bypass. Only one hour flight to SNF
so I'll find one there. Very long runup, everything looks good - off I go.
- in-flight failure #2 - 15 minutes into flight, radio starts blinking and I
start cursing. I notice aux bat volts fluctuating between 15.x and 16.x
(this is after diode drop from main bus). This is normally at 13.8 volts.
Aha! The regulator is bad! Everything goes out again. "golly, gosh darn
it" (ya right) Backup switch on, engine comes on again (whew!). Land at
nearest. Bad place to land but that's another story. I pull the alt and
get a ride to town. I went to an auto parts store and they tested it. It
failed on the tester "when the switch was on alternator but passed when it
was set to generator". They had no idea what that meant but it sounded like
a bad regulator to me. They didn't have a Suzuki Samuri alternator in stock
but said a guy up the road fixes them. Off to the guy up the road and he
tested it. "Nothing wrong with this alternator" he said. I asked to keep
testing, and he got it really hot under full load and it still worked.
Maybe under vibration or higher rpm? Dunno. Went to another auto parts
store and they ordered one - "be here in two hours". They tested it and it
passed on a third type of test stand, this one fully automated. I wanted
new anyway.
Got the new alt, went back and installed it, but the battery wouldn't come
up after charging so it was toast. I found the same size and replaced it.
I also removed the overvoltage circuit and removed a diode to ground on the
field line from the contactor. It's normally not good to make more than one
change at a time but I wanted to remove all in doubt and try to recreate the
problem later at home. I ran it up for a long time not feeling good that I
didn't understand exactly what happened or find and fix a hard failure.
Told the tower that I was going to keep climbing and circling for a while,
and everything seemed ok.
Made it Lakeland (after doing several laps around Lake Parker #$%@&
!),
couldn't find a contactor and never found anything else wrong. So it made
it to my new home after another 10 hours as-is. Everything seems fine with
the new alt, new bat and contactor bypassed (I already ordered a new master
contactor).
- is it likely for the regulator to go bad but test ok?
- would the regulator shut itself down? (someone said they do that)
- would the OV ciruit have pulled the "field" line down and caused screwy
operation because the OV contactor was not there?
- would an overvoltage toast the master contactor?
- the first main bus failure makes sense if the master contactor removed all
power, but the second time they were hard wired (stupid, yes). Would the OV
toast an RG battery that quick? Battery goes high temp and shorts?
- do I replace the OV circuit and contactor? I had about 150 hours on it
with no problems using the OV circuit.
Happy to share my stupidity so nobody else does that, and highly recommend
simple redundant circuits that will get you home. Also happy to provide
real-world data for discussion here. In my feeble defense, this
cross-country move came up quickly with a fixed timeframe so I scrambled to
clean up details on the plane but didn't get to replacing or removing OV
stuff. The plane flew great from RI to FL after 10 hours and when it failed
I was 1000 miles from anyone I knew. If I was near home I don't think I
would have continued until it was 100% but I'm also not sure that I would
have found anything more than I did. I saved the old alt so I can try to
get it to fail (Bob - you want it?). It would be nice to know what happened
and improve my design. I'm 90% done with a homemade engine monitor. I have
three hall-effect current sensors in place and audio warning with data
recording. Would have been nice but I still have 90% to go on it. I think
I'll sell that project and buy a new one soon.
Gary Krysztopik
Pelican/Stratus - 175 hours
San Antonio, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sid Hausding <avidsid(at)yahoo.com> |
Wow, lots of reading and viewing, but I"m up to it...........getting started tonight.......and
Thank you.
Sid
---------------------------
John Schroeder wrote:
Sid -
Most LEDs you get do not have the resistors needed to bias them. Sooo, you
need to do this. Most fixtures using LED's these days come with the
biasing already installed for that particular fixture/light. All of the
replacement bulbs for cars have the bias installed.
Try the following for some of the how-to stuff:
http://www.eaa724.org/TechnicalStuff%20.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/led.htm
http://members.misty.com/don/ledx.html
http://metku.net/index.html?sect=view&n=1&path=mods/ledcalc/index_eng
This should get you going.
John Schroeder
wrote:
>
> Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas
> for powering up the little buggers.....
> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices
> and can tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning
> out......?
> Sid
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator B Lead protection |
Lectric Bob:
I'm using a version of your Z-12 architecture modified for a single 60 AMP
alternator (no backup YET, after the airplane flies I'll add an SD-8). My
question has to do with alternator B lead fusing and I'll get right to the
point.....
Is it really necessary to put a fuse, breaker or ANL in this circuit?
My thinking on this goes as follows:
1) The B lead would be routed from the alternator to the contactor on the
engine side of the firewall only (no heavy wire inside the cockpit).
2) I'm using an 8 gauge Tefzel wire provided in Van's wiring kit.
3) An 8 gauge Tefzel wire will experience appx 30 degree (C) temperature
rise at the 60 amps provided by the alternator at maximum output.
4) Even sitting next to a 200 degree (F) engine crankcase the temperature
rise on the wire should be within the capability of the wire insulation.
5) Even under extreme charging circumstances the full 60 amps of the
alternator will not be flowing in the wire for long periods, limiting the
duration of the temperature rise and insulation stress
6) B&C 60 amp externally regulated alternator with LR-3 reg/OV protect
The only condition that I can think of that might cause trouble and where a
fuse/breaker/ANL would mitigate a possible hazard is:
An alternator fault that allows a dead short between the battery positive
and crankcase ground through the alternator windings and the B lead. This
could burn up the windings in the alternator and possibly melt the B lead.
Is this the scenario that the ANL on the B lead is designed to mitigate?
What are the probabilities that such a scenario would occur in the field?
Any experience with this type of fault in 40 years of working on spam cans?
Would you advise against leaving this ANL out or is it just "extra
insurance" for some other scenario I'm missing? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Crimping and soldering
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator B Lead protection |
>
>
>
>Lectric Bob:
>
>I'm using a version of your Z-12 architecture modified for a single 60 AMP
>alternator (no backup YET, after the airplane flies I'll add an SD-8). My
>question has to do with alternator B lead fusing and I'll get right to the
>point.....
>
>Is it really necessary to put a fuse, breaker or ANL in this circuit?
Cars don't do it . . . and if you're comfortable with that in your
airplane too . . . you don't need to do it there either. But I believe
there was a recent case where a car caught fire in a parking lot . . .
don't recall the extent of the damage but I think the story cited
some form of failure in the alternator. Now, in all fairness, that
might have been a soft fault wherein b-lead protection would not
have opened and stopped progress of the event. Without detailed
analysis we're left with best hypothesis supported by what we hope
is good common sense and lots of experience. Unfortunately, it doesn't
take too many fertilizations of myth and bad science to turn
a perfectly understandable event into Scary Story version 1456.3
useful only for hangar flying over a pitcher of suds.
>My thinking on this goes as follows:
>1) The B lead would be routed from the alternator to the contactor on the
>engine side of the firewall only (no heavy wire inside the cockpit).
>2) I'm using an 8 gauge Tefzel wire provided in Van's wiring kit.
>3) An 8 gauge Tefzel wire will experience appx 30 degree (C) temperature
>rise at the 60 amps provided by the alternator at maximum output.
>4) Even sitting next to a 200 degree (F) engine crankcase the temperature
>rise on the wire should be within the capability of the wire insulation.
>5) Even under extreme charging circumstances the full 60 amps of the
>alternator will not be flowing in the wire for long periods, limiting the
>duration of the temperature rise and insulation stress
>6) B&C 60 amp externally regulated alternator with LR-3 reg/OV protect
>
>The only condition that I can think of that might cause trouble and where a
>fuse/breaker/ANL would mitigate a possible hazard is:
>
>An alternator fault that allows a dead short between the battery positive
>and crankcase ground through the alternator windings and the B lead. This
>could burn up the windings in the alternator and possibly melt the B lead.
>
>Is this the scenario that the ANL on the B lead is designed to mitigate?
That's it. Rare and in fact, I've not heard of one in many moons
with our customers. But the folks at Kelly see them come in from
time to time.
>What are the probabilities that such a scenario would occur in the field?
>Any experience with this type of fault in 40 years of working on spam cans?
>Would you advise against leaving this ANL out or is it just "extra
>insurance" for some other scenario I'm missing? Thanks.
I prefer not to deal in probability slicing. If the risks are not
zero -AND- potential for hazard under the fault condition is high,
then I prefer to design in plan-b hazard mitigation.
It's your airplane and I would not propose to dictate design
philosophies to you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: oh no! OV again |
>
>
>I recently had what I suspect is a regulator failure with an EA-81 and
>Suzuki Samuri alternator. I'm not quite sure exactly what happened but many
>many thanks to Bob and the list for helping out when I was wiring my plane
>four or five years ago. My backup battery and backup ignition saved me and
>got me to the nearest airport (twice).
>
>I have a glass VFR panel but didn't want the complexity and weight of a
>bigger aux bus. My simple little 5AH aux battery is only wired to the
>backup ignition, second electric fuel pump, and tiny LCD voltmeter. It's
>just enough to keep the engine running while I get my handheld radio out
>(with VOR for backup nav). I wired it thru a completely different area of
>the panel and firewall for complete redundancy. It is connected to the main
>bus via a diode for charging. I check every preflight that the backup
>battery and ignition are working. That's the good part - it worked as
>intended.
>I was a long time reader on the list but went thru three big moves over the
>last couple years and I wasn't able to keep up with all my lists and missed
>a large part of the Paul vs Bob OV discussion as well as anything that took
>place since. I'm not sure whether to retain my OV module and solenoid but
>I'll be reading up on things. One of my mistakes was to have a partial OV
>circuit and the other was not to have sufficient and active engine
>monitoring. I'm here to learn so feel free to point out any other mistakes
>that we can learn from.
The figure Z-24 ov system is not inherently evil. It does offer
risks to the alternator's regulator IF the system is turned OFF
while the alternator is under load. On the other hand, the system
has performed as intended and taken runaway alternators off line
on several occasions reported to us. There's a replacement for
Z-24 in the design phases and some testing has been done which sent
us back to the drawing board. But it's a low priority concern. If
you have Z-24 in place, just operate it as you would any other
airplane and it will be fine in interim.
>- OV circuit problem last year - I noticed my battery was run down because
>the alternator was not charging it. I found that the alternator contactor
>was not closing (used in OV circuit for internally regulated alternators per
>aeroelectric schematic). I attributed the failure to a poor mounting
>location - I tried to keep it simple so I put it right between the alt and
>starter which was on the subaru cylinder head where there were spare
>mounting holes already tapped in the head. I'm guessing excessive heat and
>vibration caused the failure. I bypassed the contactor but left the OV
>module in there intending to relocate the contactor. I should have
>disconnected the circuit - either all in or all out.
I think your analysis has merit. The contactor would not live
happily mounted on the engine.
>- gnd strap problem last fall - while starting the plane, the power
>fluctuated then dropped out. I traced it to a loose ground strap. Funny, I
>made all my big cables per Bob's 12 ga wire wedge solder method and all held
>up great. For some reason I wanted a nice braided steel ground strap so I
>bought two custom length from an aircraft place for battery to firewall and
>engine block to firewall. These are the ones that failed - the crimp was
>loose and the strap pulled right out. Lesson - make redundant ground
>straps.
Or solder with confidence in your skill and powers of observation
to know that the join integrity is good . . .
> Another lesson - I gently tug on all bat and gnd straps preflight
>but the two gnd straps were neatly tie wrapped together so when I checked
>them, the good one was supporting the bad one. That's both good and bad I
>guess. I mention this because the incident blew some fuses and must have
>sent some spikes thru the system, possibly reducing the life of the
>regulator?
It's anybody's guess. Normally I would not expect the condition
you describe to chip away at the service life of a regulator.
>- in-flight failure #1 - the other week on the way to SNF, radio blinks,
>popping in headset, then panel goes black and engine gets quiet. Backup
>switch on, engine comes back up and land at nearest. Probe around and find
>battery contactor chattering, not able to keep bat and alt on main bus.
>Probe around engine and panel for a couple hours, everything else looks ok
>except alt OV breaker was popped (missed hint?). I assumed the main bus
>disconnect sent a spike thru the system and popped the breaker. I had a
>contactor fail before, made sense so I called around for one. No luck, so I
>move cables to one side of contactor to bypass. Only one hour flight to SNF
>so I'll find one there. Very long runup, everything looks good - off I go.
>
>- in-flight failure #2 - 15 minutes into flight, radio starts blinking and I
>start cursing. I notice aux bat volts fluctuating between 15.x and 16.x
>(this is after diode drop from main bus). This is normally at 13.8 volts.
>Aha! The regulator is bad! Everything goes out again. "golly, gosh darn
>it" (ya right) Backup switch on, engine comes on again (whew!). Land at
>nearest. Bad place to land but that's another story. I pull the alt and
>get a ride to town. I went to an auto parts store and they tested it. It
>failed on the tester "when the switch was on alternator but passed when it
>was set to generator". They had no idea what that meant but it sounded like
>a bad regulator to me. They didn't have a Suzuki Samuri alternator in stock
>but said a guy up the road fixes them. Off to the guy up the road and he
>tested it. "Nothing wrong with this alternator" he said. I asked to keep
>testing, and he got it really hot under full load and it still worked.
>Maybe under vibration or higher rpm? Dunno. Went to another auto parts
>store and they ordered one - "be here in two hours". They tested it and it
>passed on a third type of test stand, this one fully automated. I wanted
>new anyway.
This is not an unusual story. It's not uncommon for folks who
sell and even overhaul things to know exactly HOW the product
OR their test equipment works. They provide a very useful function
with their ability to fix common ailments (one doesn't have too
many choices as to repairable items in alternators) but in spite
of their extensive knowledge, it's not uncommon to find that
they understand little about the alternator and even less about
any unique features of your application.
>Got the new alt, went back and installed it, but the battery wouldn't come
>up after charging so it was toast. I found the same size and replaced it.
>I also removed the overvoltage circuit and removed a diode to ground on the
>field line from the contactor. It's normally not good to make more than one
>change at a time but I wanted to remove all in doubt and try to recreate the
>problem later at home. I ran it up for a long time not feeling good that I
>didn't understand exactly what happened or find and fix a hard failure.
>Told the tower that I was going to keep climbing and circling for a while,
>and everything seemed ok.
>
>Made it Lakeland (after doing several laps around Lake Parker #$%@&
>!),
>couldn't find a contactor and never found anything else wrong. So it made
>it to my new home after another 10 hours as-is. Everything seems fine with
>the new alt, new bat and contactor bypassed (I already ordered a new master
>contactor).
>
>- is it likely for the regulator to go bad but test ok?
>- would the regulator shut itself down? (someone said they do that)
>- would the OV ciruit have pulled the "field" line down and caused screwy
>operation because the OV contactor was not there?
>- would an overvoltage toast the master contactor?
>- the first main bus failure makes sense if the master contactor removed all
>power, but the second time they were hard wired (stupid, yes). Would the OV
>toast an RG battery that quick?
Yes. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Odyssey_OV/
> Battery goes high temp and shorts?
Shorts under normal operating conditions are rare in RG batteries.
The failure mode that precipitated shorts in flooded batteries does
not exist for RG batteries. However, under duress, all bets are off.
Here a real $high$ battery that shorted internally and caught fire
internally:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Internal_Fire
. . in this case, all damage was contained within the battery
except for a tiny hole in the case. We're not sure what precipitated
the event. Too much damage to burned cell to deduce and the other
cells did not show signs of overcharge. We're thinking this was
a one-of, exceedingly rare event . . . but who knows? We may get
a surprise one day.
>- do I replace the OV circuit and contactor? I had about 150 hours on it
>with no problems using the OV circuit.
I'd recommend you leave it in but move the hardware off the engine.
Had it been in place and functioning you should never have seen
the high voltage readings you cited. The ov event should have
be corralled in milliseconds after onset. Now, having the
Z-24 contactor open COULD be antagonistic to your alternator's
regulator . . . but since it has already wandered off into
the weeds, you might as well put it out of it's misery and
save the rest of the airplane.
At first blush, it sounds as if you might have multiple issues
of craftsmanship in installation and wiring of components. It's
a certainty that 'loose' connections in a system under load can
mimic the load-dump stresses known to be antagonistic to alternator
regulators.
>Happy to share my stupidity so nobody else does that, and highly recommend
>simple redundant circuits that will get you home. Also happy to provide
>real-world data for discussion here. In my feeble defense, this
>cross-country move came up quickly with a fixed timeframe so I scrambled to
>clean up details on the plane but didn't get to replacing or removing OV
>stuff. The plane flew great from RI to FL after 10 hours and when it failed
>I was 1000 miles from anyone I knew. If I was near home I don't think I
>would have continued until it was 100% but I'm also not sure that I would
>have found anything more than I did. I saved the old alt so I can try to
>get it to fail (Bob - you want it?).
Sure. I have access to an automotive guy who knows a great deal
and wants to understand as much as he can about what he knows.
We'd be pleased to take a look at it with due diligence to
understanding and respect for the repeatable experiment.
> It would be nice to know what happened
>and improve my design. I'm 90% done with a homemade engine monitor. I have
>three hall-effect current sensors in place and audio warning with data
>recording. Would have been nice but I still have 90% to go on it. I think
>I'll sell that project and buy a new one soon.
>Gary Krysztopik
>Pelican/Stratus - 175 hours
>San Antonio, TX
You're not real far from Wichita. It might be useful for you
to fly up some weekend and we could help you comb over the system
for any potential 'gotchas' that might still be lurking. It's
exceedingly difficult to pinpoint root cause purely from
un-quantified observations. Do you have a schematic of your
system you could send?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Flaky BNC Connection Repairable? |
I've noticed the satellite signal strength indicators on my GPS90 vary when I rotate
or wiggle the antenna cable where it goes into the BNC connection on the
GPS. So far, this hasn't seemed to affect operation in the air, but, since I
rely heavily on this mode of navigation, I'm wondering if there is something
I could do, short of replacing the unit, to give me a better connection. Some
sort of conductive grease or spray? The antenna cable is new but the GPS is
8 years old. I'll soon be going out on tiedown & the unit is mounted to the panel
& uses ship's power, so it's environment is about to become more hostile
too.
Dave Reel - RV8A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | " Peter Laurence" <Dr.Laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
Dick
Nice explanation.
Would you give us a scenarion using a voltage regulator in a current
limiting mode?
Peter Laurence
> Essentially all LEDs require some sort of current limiter. That is,
> LEDs are current driven devices (rather than voltage driven like a
> normal incandescent lights) and putting a voltage higher than required
> to light them will cause almost instant self destruction. But it looks
> like you already knew that...
>
> That said, the LED assemblies offered on the referenced site may very
> well have internal limiters, especially where they come attached to a
> threaded plug that is designed to thread into an incandescent lamp socket.
>
> Most single (unassembled) LEDs do NOT have an internal limiter and are
> designed to work with something between 10-30 mA through them. This can
> be accomplished in a number of ways, but the simplest is just to wire a
> resistor in series with the LED. When you purchase an LED it should
> come with specifications that tell you what the operating voltage is
> (the voltage that it lights at) and the rated maximum current. Let's
> take a sample red LED with an operating voltage of 1.7V and a maximum
> current of 30 mA. Let's further assume that you want to operate this at
> something less than the maximum current to allow for high temperatures
> in the cockpit and choose 20 mA (a little less than maximum brightness,
> but probably still very bright). If we are operating this from the
> alternator/battery voltage we can assume about 14V available (actually
> 12-14.5V - see below). If we just hooked this to the LED it would be
> very bright (for a millisecond or two), then very dark :-) . We need
> to limit the current to the aforementioned 20 mA.
>
> So... We take the available voltage (14V) and subtract what the LED
> needs (1.7V) to get the voltage we need to "discard" (12.3V). We then
> calculate the resistor we need to allow 20 mA with this voltage
> (12.3V). Using Ohm's law (V=I*R) and rearranging (R=V/I) we plug the
> numbers into the equation to get 12.3V/0.02A=615 ohms. That is not one
> of the standard available values of resistor so we choose a value that
> is close (620 ohms for 5% resistors or 619 ohms for 1% resistors). Now
> we have a value but we still have to calculate the power "discarded" in
> the resistor so we can get one that will not burn up as soon as we turn
> things on. Power in watts is (W=V*I). Plugging the numbers in we get
> 12.3V * 0.02A = 0.246 W or 246 mW. Resistors come is various power
> ratings and we have to choose one that is at least what we just
> calculated. That means we should use 1/4W at absolute minimum.
> However, if we choose the 1/4W resistor it will run very hot to
> dissipate 0.246W of power - potentially shortening it's life and
> reliability. So we really want to choose at least a 1/2W resistor.
> That will give it some "elbow room" especially important if it will be
> operating in a warm environment.
>
> Use the same idea for any LED you may buy (different colors have
> different operating voltages). Additionally, you can connect two LEDs
> in series for whatever reason (lighting, etc.) and just do the same
> calculations but use 3.4V (in this case 1.7V times the two LEDs) instead
> of 1.7V. You can do this with several LEDs but you must allow some
> series voltage to drop across the resistor (remembering that the voltage
> on the aircraft bus varies from about 14.5V max. to about 12V min.). As
> the voltage varies the LEDs will vary in brightness. If you have one
> LED the "leftover" voltage will vary between 12.8V to 10.3V - a change
> of approximately 20-25%. If you series several LEDs (say four for a
> drop of 6.8V), the voltage will vary between 7.7V to 5.2V - a change of
> 30-50%. So do not add too many in series that you have too low a
> voltage across the resistor.
>
> Do not connect LEDs in parallel!!! If you do, the one that has a
> slightly lower operating voltage will "hog" all the current - causing it
> to use too much current (overheat) and be much brighter than the
> other(s). If you want to wire them in parallel for some reason, use a
> series resistor for each LED.
>
> If you have more questions, please ask. :-)
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> Sid Hausding wrote:
>
>>
>>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas
>>for powering up the little buggers.....
>> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices
>> and can tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning
>> out......?
>> Sid
>> -----------------------
>>
>>Sid Hausding wrote:
>>
>>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if
>>most will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power
>>requirements they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere
>>on wiring in a 15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>>Sid
>>--------------------
>>
>>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>>
>>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>>
>>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Please Note:
> No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede,
> however,
> that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily
> inconvenienced.
> --
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaky BNC Connection Repairable? |
DAVID REEL wrote:
>
> I've noticed the satellite signal strength indicators on my GPS90 vary when I
rotate or wiggle the antenna cable where it goes into the BNC connection on the
GPS. So far, this hasn't seemed to affect operation in the air, but, since
I rely heavily on this mode of navigation, I'm wondering if there is something
I could do, short of replacing the unit, to give me a better connection. Some
sort of conductive grease or spray? The antenna cable is new but the GPS is
8 years old. I'll soon be going out on tiedown & the unit is mounted to the
panel & uses ship's power, so it's environment is about to become more hostile
too.
One should pull all panel mounted radios about once per year anyway in
order to clean them, blow out the dust, and clean the connectors. You
may find that solves any problems you may have.
Given that almost all BNC connectors use gold pins, corrosion and
contact resistance are usually not a problem. If you are having problems
with the antenna connector then you need to troubleshoot this before you
have an in-flight failure. Remember, most GPS antennas have their own
amplifier built-in that is powered by DC power going up the antenna coax
cable. It is more likely that it is DC resistance changing the voltage
arriving at the GPS antenna that is causing your problem.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leo Corbalis" <leocorbalis(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Remove from list |
Please remove this account from your list. Recipient is deceased.
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry(at)mc.net> |
| Subject: | Wire length vs. fuse size |
Bob ...
If a load of 15A is fed with a 12 foot length of wire, is an inline fuse
used in this situation? Is the fuse size increased to accommodate the wire
length? What size fuse would be needed? This wire will feed the endurance
bus from the aft battery lug (bypassing the aft contactor) as a continuous
backup source of power.
Thanks ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
I am about to install a right angle crimp type 2 piece solderless BNC but
am not sure what holds the coax center to assure good contact. Can anyone
enlighten me?
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: right angle BNC |
rd2(at)evenlink.com a crit :
>
> I am about to install a right angle crimp type 2 piece solderless BNC but
> am not sure what holds the coax center to assure good contact. Can anyone
> enlighten me?
>
In some models, once you've crimped the center conductor, you push the
center contact in place. In other models, you have to solder the core to
the center pin, then press in the small cover. Works well too.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
In concept it is really simple :-) .
The quickest way (since you can probably get the parts at Radshack) is
to use a three terminal regulator (in, out, ground) like the LM7805
series, although any voltage regulator will work. Connect a resistor
between the output of the regulator and the ground pin of the regulator
(do NOT connect the regulator ground pin to aircraft ground). Connect
the LED and the regulator assembly in series between +14V and ground -
it doesn't matter if you have the regulator connected to +14V to the LED
and then to ground or vice versa. For example, connect the input of the
regulator to +14V, the ground pin of the regulator/resistor to the
positive terminal of the LED and the negative terminal of the LED to
aircraft ground. You also must add appropriate capacitors per the
manufacturers datasheet recommendation - I really can't make any
recommendations here as each regulator is different.
Choose the resistor value based on how much current you want as
follows: Let's assume you want 20 mA and you have chosen a 5V
regulator. Calculate the resistor value (using ohms law) R = 5V / 0.2
mA = 250 ohms. The power dissipated in the resistor is P = 5V * 0.02mA
= 0.1W. In this case a 1/4 W resistor is fine.
Depending on how much current you choose and how many LEDs you use you
may have to add a heat sink to the regulator (unlikely). Bur just in
case, you calculate the power dissipated in the regulator like so
(assuming use of a 5V regulator): Find the maximum voltage across the
regulator +14.5V- 5V - 1.7V = 7.8V. Multiply that by the current, which
is essentially whatever you chose earlier (20 mA in this case) 7.8V *
0.02mA = 0.156W - a number that all but the smallest regulators can
handle without a heatsink.
As with a resistor limiter, you can use more than one LED in series.
You have to have enough voltage when you add all the voltage drops to
still be lower than the minimum expected aircraft supply voltage
(typically about 12V). The voltages that you must add together are: the
5V due to the regulator, the LED drop * the number of LEDs and the
minimum voltage required across the regulator itself (not the 5V, but a
voltage called the dropout voltage which is anywhere from several volts
to less than a volt - depending on the actual regulator used). As an
example, using a LM7805 with 2V dropout, you would have 12V - 5V - 2V =
5V, meaning you could drive three red LEDs down to about the 12V. You
can also find regulators that allow a smaller output voltage (than 5V)
which means that you have more for the LEDs - for instance, the LP2950
is available in a 3V version and this also has a lower dropout voltage
of about 0.5V.
The advantage of using an active regulator is that the current (and
therefore brightness) is essentially constant over the full aircraft
supply voltage (12V to 14.5V). The disadvantage is that it is a little
more complicated than a simple series resistor.
Dick Tasker
Peter Laurence wrote:
>
>Dick
>
>Nice explanation.
>
>Would you give us a scenarion using a voltage regulator in a current
>limiting mode?
>
>
>Peter Laurence
>
>
>
>
>>Essentially all LEDs require some sort of current limiter. That is,
>>LEDs are current driven devices (rather than voltage driven like a
>>normal incandescent lights) and putting a voltage higher than required
>>to light them will cause almost instant self destruction. But it looks
>>like you already knew that...
>>
>>That said, the LED assemblies offered on the referenced site may very
>>well have internal limiters, especially where they come attached to a
>>threaded plug that is designed to thread into an incandescent lamp socket.
>>
>>Most single (unassembled) LEDs do NOT have an internal limiter and are
>>designed to work with something between 10-30 mA through them. This can
>>be accomplished in a number of ways, but the simplest is just to wire a
>>resistor in series with the LED. When you purchase an LED it should
>>come with specifications that tell you what the operating voltage is
>>(the voltage that it lights at) and the rated maximum current. Let's
>>take a sample red LED with an operating voltage of 1.7V and a maximum
>>current of 30 mA. Let's further assume that you want to operate this at
>>something less than the maximum current to allow for high temperatures
>>in the cockpit and choose 20 mA (a little less than maximum brightness,
>>but probably still very bright). If we are operating this from the
>>alternator/battery voltage we can assume about 14V available (actually
>>12-14.5V - see below). If we just hooked this to the LED it would be
>>very bright (for a millisecond or two), then very dark :-) . We need
>>to limit the current to the aforementioned 20 mA.
>>
>>So... We take the available voltage (14V) and subtract what the LED
>>needs (1.7V) to get the voltage we need to "discard" (12.3V). We then
>>calculate the resistor we need to allow 20 mA with this voltage
>>(12.3V). Using Ohm's law (V=I*R) and rearranging (R=V/I) we plug the
>>numbers into the equation to get 12.3V/0.02A=615 ohms. That is not one
>>of the standard available values of resistor so we choose a value that
>>is close (620 ohms for 5% resistors or 619 ohms for 1% resistors). Now
>>we have a value but we still have to calculate the power "discarded" in
>>the resistor so we can get one that will not burn up as soon as we turn
>>things on. Power in watts is (W=V*I). Plugging the numbers in we get
>>12.3V * 0.02A = 0.246 W or 246 mW. Resistors come is various power
>>ratings and we have to choose one that is at least what we just
>>calculated. That means we should use 1/4W at absolute minimum.
>>However, if we choose the 1/4W resistor it will run very hot to
>>dissipate 0.246W of power - potentially shortening it's life and
>>reliability. So we really want to choose at least a 1/2W resistor.
>>That will give it some "elbow room" especially important if it will be
>>operating in a warm environment.
>>
>>Use the same idea for any LED you may buy (different colors have
>>different operating voltages). Additionally, you can connect two LEDs
>>in series for whatever reason (lighting, etc.) and just do the same
>>calculations but use 3.4V (in this case 1.7V times the two LEDs) instead
>>of 1.7V. You can do this with several LEDs but you must allow some
>>series voltage to drop across the resistor (remembering that the voltage
>>on the aircraft bus varies from about 14.5V max. to about 12V min.). As
>>the voltage varies the LEDs will vary in brightness. If you have one
>>LED the "leftover" voltage will vary between 12.8V to 10.3V - a change
>>of approximately 20-25%. If you series several LEDs (say four for a
>>drop of 6.8V), the voltage will vary between 7.7V to 5.2V - a change of
>>30-50%. So do not add too many in series that you have too low a
>>voltage across the resistor.
>>
>>Do not connect LEDs in parallel!!! If you do, the one that has a
>>slightly lower operating voltage will "hog" all the current - causing it
>>to use too much current (overheat) and be much brighter than the
>>other(s). If you want to wire them in parallel for some reason, use a
>>series resistor for each LED.
>>
>>If you have more questions, please ask. :-)
>>
>>Dick Tasker
>>
>>Sid Hausding wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Yes, nice site with lots of lighting ideas...........but, no tech ideas
>>>for powering up the little buggers.....
>>> anyone done this for their panels or other electric/electronic devices
>>>and can tell me the needed requirements to keep the LED's from burning
>>>out......?
>>> Sid
>>> -----------------------
>>>
>>>Sid Hausding wrote:
>>>
>>>Wondering if all LED's come with a built in current limiting device or if
>>>most will need to have a resistor wired in line to keep the small power
>>>requirements they use from burning out.........any info posted somewhere
>>>on wiring in a 15mamp, 12dcv device to show power to the system out there?
>>>Sid
>>>--------------------
>>>
>>>"Alan K. Adamson" wrote:
>>>
>>>Opps, helps if you post the link...
>>>
>>>http://www.ledtronics.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place has just
>>>about every LED imaginable and then some.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>Please Note:
>>No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede,
>>however,
>>that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily
>>inconvenienced.
>>--
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaky BNC Connection Repairable? |
Hi David
If certain there is not a real correctable cause (there usually is) -ypu
could try Stabilant 22a. I have not tried it on antenna connections but
it supposedly pretty much removes the need to periodically clean
connectors and seems to help with intermittent connections. Or maybe it
just makes me feel better ;) .... I haven't noticed it advertised
lately although I seldom go to the places that used to advertise it
anymore.
Ken
DAVID REEL wrote:
>
>I've noticed the satellite signal strength indicators on my GPS90 vary when I
rotate or wiggle the antenna cable where it goes into the BNC connection on the
GPS. So far, this hasn't seemed to affect operation in the air, but, since
I rely heavily on this mode of navigation, I'm wondering if there is something
I could do, short of replacing the unit, to give me a better connection. Some
sort of conductive grease or spray? The antenna cable is new but the GPS is
8 years old. I'll soon be going out on tiedown & the unit is mounted to the
panel & uses ship's power, so it's environment is about to become more hostile
too.
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming(at)sigecom.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire length vs. fuse size |
----- Original Message -----
>
> Bob ...
> If a load of 15A is fed with a 12 foot length of wire, is an inline fuse
> used in this situation? Is the fuse size increased to accommodate the
> wire
> length? What size fuse would be needed? This wire will feed the
> endurance
> bus from the aft battery lug (bypassing the aft contactor) as a continuous
> backup source of power.
> Thanks ...
> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
>
Jerry, you first need to figure the size wire you need for pushing 15A 12
feet. There is a chart in Bob's book on this. You can always use a larger
wire for added protection but that increases your weight.
Next, you want to protect the wire you select by using the right size fuse.
The wire will handle the 15A with a bit of safety built in. You are pushing
15A maximum. So you should use a 20A fuse since a 15A fuse might give you
blown fuse when it is just working normally.
Indiana Larry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <william.p.dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: LED power....... |
If you are going to go through the effort to use a regulator, use an
LM317 instead. You can easily set it up as a current regulator and it
will put exactly 20 mA (or whatever you choose) through the LED.
Attached is a wiring diagram.
Here is a nice web page that gives all the basic "how to" for
running LEDs.
http://www.trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips7/white_led_tips.html
Use a 60 ohm resistor with the lm317 to get exactly 20 mA. A 62 ohm
will give slightly less, but you will never notice and it is a standard
value.
Here is the digikey order page for the style you would want to get.
Notice that thy cost less than $0.50.
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=357151&Row=74749&Site=US
Get the TO-92 package as you don't need the large current that the
larger package will supply. You also don't want surface mount.
Bill Dube'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: right angle BNC |
You crimp the center conductor or solder it?
Good Luck,
Bob is SE Iowa
On 4/17/06, Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> wrote:
>
> rd2(at)evenlink.com a crit :
> >
> > I am about to install a right angle crimp type 2 piece solderless BNC but
> > am not sure what holds the coax center to assure good contact. Can anyone
> > enlighten me?
> >
> In some models, once you've crimped the center conductor, you push the
> center contact in place. In other models, you have to solder the core to
> the center pin, then press in the small cover. Works well too.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire length vs. fuse size |
Jerry.
It seems to me that if you are going to fuse it for 20A you need to
size the wire for 20A also what you are protecting is an overload on
the wire! . . . 12 ft isn't going to be a huge deal . . . if you are
concerned go up one size.
Good Luck,
Bob in SE Iowa
On 4/17/06, LarryRobertHelming wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> >
> > Bob ...
> > If a load of 15A is fed with a 12 foot length of wire, is an inline fuse
> > used in this situation? Is the fuse size increased to accommodate the
> > wire
> > length? What size fuse would be needed? This wire will feed the
> > endurance
> > bus from the aft battery lug (bypassing the aft contactor) as a continuous
> > backup source of power.
> > Thanks ...
> > Jerry Grimmonpre'
> >
> >
> Jerry, you first need to figure the size wire you need for pushing 15A 12
> feet. There is a chart in Bob's book on this. You can always use a larger
> wire for added protection but that increases your weight.
>
> Next, you want to protect the wire you select by using the right size fuse.
> The wire will handle the 15A with a bit of safety built in. You are pushing
> 15A maximum. So you should use a 20A fuse since a 15A fuse might give you
> blown fuse when it is just working normally.
>
> Indiana Larry
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> |
All,
I started the Rotax 582 for the first time today, and everything
was fine but the tachometer and the charging. I'd like some help
de-bugging, if I may.
Configuration: Rotax 582 grey head w/ 3-phase regulator wired per Z-17. GRT
EIS tach wire connected to yellow alternator output wire.
First start: Tachometer reads 0. No variation in voltage switching
alternator in or out, regardless of RPM. Voltage about 12.9V.
Disconnect regulator from alternator. Measure ACV across alternator and get
Rotax spec values. (~14 - 55 VAC depending on RPM.)
Re-connect regulator input wires and disconnect output wire and measure
voltage between it and ground: ~5 VDC invariant with RPM. Note that the EIS
RPM is now working.
Re-connect the output wire and clip DC volt meter between the regulator
output and ground: ~ 14.1 VDC at idle, decreasing to about 5 VDC at higher
RPM. EIS RPM is 0 again.
Basically I'm clueless as to how to diagnose whether the charging
system is working beyond the alternator output. Any help would be
appreciated. I think whatever's influencing the charging is probably
inhibiting the EIS RPM input, as well.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 14V from 28V system |
| From: | "N395V" <N395V(at)direcway.com> |
I am building a 28V system and have some items that will be 14v others that can
go 28 or 14V.
Is it better to use a 28-14v converter or use 2 14 V batteries in series and tap
off the center?
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29091#29091
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 14V from 28V system |
N395V wrote:
>
> I am building a 28V system and have some items that will be 14v others that can
go 28 or 14V.
>
> Is it better to use a 28-14v converter or use 2 14 V batteries in series and
tap off the center?
It is much better to use a converter or, better still, an equalizer.
The problem with center tapping the batteries is that you will force the
lower battery into an undercharged state and the upper battery into an
overcharged state. You will quickly destroy the upper battery and the
lower battery will permanently suffer a loss of capacity leading to its
early failure. And when I say "early" I am talking on the order of 40
hours or less.
There are a number of companies making switching-type DC-DC converters
that are very efficient. The only problem is that they become a single
point of failure in your system. If that converter fails you have no 14V
for anything that needs it.
Better still is a battery equalizer. This device connects across your
pair of batteries and to the center tap between them, i.e. to ground, to
the center tap, and to the 28V bus. It is a converter but it maintains
the center tap at exactly 1/2 the voltage of the hot lead. The equalizer
serves three purposes:
1. it ensures that both batteries charge equally and neither overcharges
at the expense of the other;
2. it carries the load for your 14V devices ensuring that you don't
damage either battery;
3. if you lose the charging system it makes the energy from both
batteries available for your 14V loads.
And if the equalizer fails you still have the lower battery available to
provide power to your 14V loads. Sure it is hard on the batteries but it
will allow you to finish your flight without losing your 14V loads.
I have used equalizers from Sure Power Industries. Their equalizers
range from 30A to 100A. See: http://www.surepower.com/conv.html.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 PM Alternator |
>
>
>Bob N,et al,
>
>There has been periodic discussion on this list in the past about the
>SD-8(& maybe other permanent magnet alternators)not being capable of
>coming on line if the battery or other power source to the buss fails or
>is not otherwise available to activate the SD-8.
You've done a nice piece of work here sir and I want you to
know that my silence thus far is for want of all the materials
I'm looking for (and time) to give you the reply it deserves.
I'm running one foot in the bucket and the other in a fire
right now . . . but I did find the schematic for a PM alternator
that I'd misplaced. More on this soon . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wire length vs. fuse size |
| From: | "Wes Bunker" <wesbflyer(at)surewest.net> |
Jerry, fuse size is not based on wire length, but wire gage, or diameter. You can
find the fuse size to wire size assignment in AC43.13-1B on page 11-15 in
Table 11-3. Remember, first you determine MINIMUM wire size as described in section
5, and then the MAXIMUM fuse size per section 4.
Have fun!
--------
Wes
N7337G
C172K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29210#29210
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
| Subject: | strobes remote from power packs |
hi bob,
i am planning to put wingtip strobes on and mount the powerpacks in the cabin.
the light assemblies are supplied by 3 wires. a ground, a 12 volt wire for the
incad. bulb, and the high voltage wire to the strobes. do i need shielded wire
for this? which wires do i need to shield? just the high voltage?
thanks in advance, bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Helmet & Headset ponderings |
| From: | Mark E Navratil <czechsix(at)juno.com> |
Guys,
I've been enjoying my trusty helmet but as the wx turns warmer I'm
thinking I'll probably break down and get a good ANR headset. The head
bucket is just too hot to wear when it gets into the upper 80's and
beyond. The other thing I've noticed is that the Oregon Aero earseals in
my helmet get extremely soft with higher temps and don't seem to seal as
well as they do in wintertime....they're very comfortable (as advertised)
but the ANR has a hard time keeping up with the noise level and I find it
bothersome after several hours in the air. FWIW I have the Headsets Inc
ANR in my helmet earcups and I imagine there are better systems available
from the likes of Bose and Lightspeed.
So...I've been looking at ANR headsets and figure if I'm gonna spend some
dough, might as well get a good one and only cry once. I'm sure Bose is
the best but I can't quite believe the cost/benefit tradeoff is worth the
$1K price tag. So I'm looking at Lightspeed's top-of-the-line Thirty 3G
instead. It is cheap by comparison at about half the price of the Bose X
(iPilot.com has the Thirty 3G for $559 with free shipping).
Couple questions: does anybody know if Lightspeed might have a better
deal available at Oshkosh? If they have really good show specials it
might be worth waiting...
Also, any pireps on the Thirty 3G series or similar high-end Lightspeed
model would be appreciated. In general I've heard that Lightspeed
headsets are comfortable and work well, sometimes break but have good
factory support to replace parts. One of my hangarmates has a pair of
well-used Lightspeeds that have the thin covering pealing away from the
foam earseals and head cushions. Still works but looks like crap...
Thanks as always for the input,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D flying 25.0 hours now, first oil change just completed...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "randall" <rv6n6r(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | wigwag flasher with one light |
I bought the Aeroelectric SSF-1 wig-wag flasher and used it happily but just
recently swapped out one of my lights for an HID so I'll only be flashing
the other (Duckworks halogen) light.
The SSF-1 is designed for 2 lights and the directions say it won't work
without a load on both sides. Any ideas about getting this thing to "wig"
without a "wag"?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wigwag flasher with one light |
Randall,
Put a resistor in place of the bulb where the "HID" moved in (probably
near the WW circuit? 55W/14V= about 4A 4A/14V = About 3.5 Ohms . .
. the resistor will probably get a little warm? and probably 50+W
version? will probably be several inches long, or parallel two 7 ohm
30W resistors, etc.
There may be a better dummy load but the above will work.
Good Luck,
Bob in SE Iowa
On 4/18/06, randall wrote:
>
> I bought the Aeroelectric SSF-1 wig-wag flasher and used it happily but just
> recently swapped out one of my lights for an HID so I'll only be flashing
> the other (Duckworks halogen) light.
>
> The SSF-1 is designed for 2 lights and the directions say it won't work
> without a load on both sides. Any ideas about getting this thing to "wig"
> without a "wag"?
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Helmet & Headset ponderings |
Mark Hi!
> One of my hangarmates has a pair of
> well-used Lightspeeds that have the thin covering pealing away from the
> foam earseals and head cushions. Still works but looks like crap...
I had till recently the same raggy but happy Lightspeed Headset (the
Original 15K from 1998) and contacted Lightspeed. Their response was as
follows:
The ear seals are $20 for the pair, $10 for the head pad and the mic muff is
$3. And just to update you on the K series, we still do repairs on these
headsets at no charge but since we haven't produced them since 1999 we are
running out of some parts and there are repairs that we can no longer do.
You may want to consider a trade at some point. You can trade your 15K for
any of the new ANR headsets and get $100 off.
I thought that a fair deal but for now replaced the pads, a 2 minute job if
that. I did purchase an additional and latest low end model, the 15XL and am
very pleased with performance and fit. Good value at $375.00.
Service and response are very good from Lightspeed.
Regards
Gerry in UK
Europa XS Trigear - G-FIZY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess(at)bluewin.ch> |
| Subject: | Helmet & Headset ponderings |
Mark,
If you are looking for an affordable, very lightweight and comfortable
alternative to conventional headsets: Try Clarity Aloft
http://www.clarityaloft.com/. I use one and am very happy with it. Noise
attenuation is at least as good as with my Flightcom ANR and the hassle with
batteries or power cords is obsolete. I have no commercial interests in
Clarity Aloft, just my personal experience.
Regards, Alfred
Alfred Buess
April 06, 2006 - April 19, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-fp