AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gf
October 02, 2006 - October 16, 2006
The stiffness of a system determines which of these can be ignored in any practical
application. Designers and engineers have the job of measuring some of
these elements and constraining the system to prevent the others from becoming
critical. This has other physical science analogues too.
The exercise is left for the student.
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe.
There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums.
There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65198#65198
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
"the cap moves over detent"
JFTR: There is no detent, the cap is held in place by friction...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2006 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Now G's
Those clear Bic pens are still around in my area.
What I'do is weigh the cap with a precision scale, then push the cap on
against a larger scale. And then do the math to get the gs...
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
===========================
Gilles:
What you would be measuring there would be FORCE, not g's. It is the force
to overcome the friction of the pen's closing mechanism. Don't use your
hand
in the test. It will adsorb some of the force in the opposite direction and
give you a lower reading. You should hook up something like a screw /
c-clamp
fixture. Also, there is basically no acceleration in this test. But, you
can
work out the Mass of the entire pen use acceleration of 32 ft per second
squared
(sorry I do not recall the metric conversion) and apply it to the test. The
number will not match the 200 g's I mentioned but it will be quite
interesting, quite high.
Force is force is force . . . whether it's applied with
the hand or any other device is not material to the
measurement . . . except that to measure PEAK force as
the cap moves over detent might me easier to observe
if the force is applied in very small, smooth increments
like with the clamp.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
Greetings,
The entire instrument panel on my Lancair Legacy I'm building is
attached to the airframe with only four bolts and is therefore
relatively easy to remove in one large piece. That is, mechanically
easy to remove, if it weren't for a bazillion wires connecting it to the
airframe. On the other hand, the Legacy has a front hinged canopy and a
removable glare shield, which provide reasonably good access to the rear
of the instrument panel while it is in place.
I can either run the wires from the airframe directly to the various
components on the panel or I can insert D-Sub connectors between all the
wires and the instrument panel. If I use connectors, it will make
removing the instrument panel easier for repairs or upgrades. Running
the wires directly to the panel, without connectors, will reduce the
parts count but make future service more difficult.
I'm torn between the two alternatives. My first thought was to add
connectors to every wire in the expectation that I'll almost certainly
want to remove the instrument panel at some point in the future for
troubleshooting, repairs, or upgrades. Working on the panel while it's
on my workbench is soooooo convenient. But there are tons of wires,
many of them shielded, and running every single one of them through a
connector is a big project. Considering that I have reasonable access
to the rear of the panel with the canopy open and the glareshield
removed, should I just plan to service the panel with it in place?
Anybody who's "been there, done that" have any advice?
Thanks,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy; painting done, still wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
Anybody have a centrifuge with accelerometer and want to conduct a
little experiment?
Dave Morris
At 10:07 AM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
>
>I think it is time for someone with a little authority to clear this
>up. My authority is so little that I have hidden it under one of the
>periods in this posting. A prize awaits the one who finds it.
>
>1) Relay mounting. Type 70 Stancor Rodgers White Emerson Tyco. See:
>
>http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/STANCOR/Stancor_Industrial-Control_5760005.pdf
>
>So the manufacturer says, "mount plunger vertical, cap down". I
>checked into the engineering data on this part and of course the
>corporate conglomeratization has destroyed the engineering knowledge
>that built the part. The manufacturer PROMISED they'd get back to
>me.....It's not DO-160 bubela. And it's only 122 deg F max operating
>temp. Etc. etc. Use the Kilovac EV200 part if you can.
>
>(Yes, I am selling my Powerlink Jr. III now and I am MONTHS late.)
>
>2) G-forces: [CAUTION-Head May Explode] Jacob Rabinow's Law (not
>that he called it that...). Gracefulness is "when the first, second,
>and third derivatives of the equation of motion monotonically and
>simultaneously go to zero." Which is to say--when the velocity,
>acceleration and impulse (the change in acceleration) smoothly and
>simultaneously go to zero.
>
>So many mysteries--a gyro will be ruined if placed on a workbench
>hard enough to be audible, but will do fine in an airplane doing
>aerobatics or combat. A pencil held horizontal and dropped 12 inches
>experiences G-forces that will destroy an airplane and kill a pilot.
>Curtis mercury-type elapsed-time meters were 12G-rated but failed if
>dropped on a workbench.
>
>Motion is composed of displacement, velocity, acceleration and
>impulse elements. The stiffness of a system determines which of
>these can be ignored in any practical application. Designers and
>engineers have the job of measuring some of these elements and
>constraining the system to prevent the others from becoming
>critical. This has other physical science analogues too.
>
>The exercise is left for the student.
>
>"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and
>less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there
>are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a
>solid. There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces.
>There are no straight lines."
> - R. Buckminster Fuller
>
>--------
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge, MA 01550
>(508) 764-2072
>emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65198#65198
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Glowing LED Warning Lights, Too Dark Now-LM317 |
MikeEasley wrote:
My LED voltage warning lights are now too dark to see in daylight after
adding the resistors in the drawing.
Smaller resistors?
I have been "playing" with leds on a breadboard, controlling them with a
LM317. The LM317 supplies constant voltage, determined by a resistance to (the
control leg, I don't know the real term). I have used a rheostat and been
able to control multiple or single leds, from very bright to very dim/off. I
am planning to make an annunciator for a 300xl gps, which always has 2 leds
on, sometimes 3, sometimes 4. I have the LM317 between the battery positive
and the leds, the leds taking power from the LM317 with their other leg
grounded. The leds are in parallel.
A value to me of the LM317 is to be able to maintain constant brightness of
multiple leds (I plan to use all the same white leds with colored lenses for
colors). The LM317 is from Radio Shack and I have only used the circuit on
the back of the box-LM317, a resistor, and a rheostat, 3 parts. Could I wire
a backup with a zener diode for a constant brightness?
However, I have been told this LM317 won't work, that I need Pulse Width
Modulation. I'm not sure why, the LM317 seems to do what I want at least on my
desk at home, is cheap and low parts count. I would appreciate any reasons
this would not be a proper way to control multiple identical leds-rf
production? Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | fat wire - skinny wires |
I seem to remember there being some rationale for not running fat wires
in the same bundle with skinny wires, but I can find a specific
reference to it in the "Aero-electric Connenction". Does such a
rationale exist, or am I suffering from delusions of toxic aircraft
chemical fumes?
My #2 battery cable currently follows a rather tortuous path from the
tailpost to the front of the plane, and I could be a lot simple (and a
few pounds lighter), if it just ran down the side with a bunch of wires
that include microphone/headphone leads, taillight, tail strobe, fuel
pump powere, and a linear actuator control leads.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Eric
You wrote:
"So the manufacturer says, "mount plunger vertical, cap down"
I have never taken apart or looked very close at the relay that is being
talked about.
I can tell you that on old Savin 220 copiers had a lamp relay they called
a K-5.
It had a plunger that rode inside a brown phenolic guide. It was mounted
horizontal.
After some time, the phenolic would wear, and make a quite useful plunger
movement limiting pocket in the phenolic.
It was useful in demonstrating to customers just how a high resistance
connection could cause so much smoke and not trip the main circuit
breaker, that is until flames were a happening and the insulation complete
gave way and then tripped.
It was the contacts wearing out, and the pocket limiting motion. On
machines under contract I modified to a vertical plunger.
Could happen in some cases 10,000 copies. It was a 115V AC 15 amp relay,
the plunger was perhaps 3/16" or 1/4" in diameter. all that was needed was
a .005" pocket.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi all,
>
> JFTR: There is no detent, the cap is held in place by friction...
>
That's right, the clear Bic has no detent.
For those interested, I've just done the Bic experiment.
I'll take some pictures tomorrow, and craft a preliminary report on this
major contribution to the advancement of Bic science.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Chamberlain" <mchamberlain(at)runbox.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin 396/496 Connections |
Hi folks,
I just purchased a bare wire data lead for the Garmin 396/496. It has several wires
coming out of it, there are a couple labeled: Voice (-), Voice (+), alarm
etc. Unfortunately there are no instructions as to where they are supposed to
go. For example is the "alarm" wire for an audio alarm and therefore needs to
be routed to a unswitched audio hook up? Or should it go to a light on the panel?
What are the "Voice" wires for? Some sort of voice audio warnings or voice
in to the unit? Not sure what they would be for as the audio out of the unit
is stereo and therefor requires 3 wires, not just 2.
If any of you guys have used this data cable to hard wire you GPS could you throw
some light on this?
Thanks,
Mark - RV-7 finishing up last 5%
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Don Rivera told me directly by email.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 6440
Auto Parts
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off
Topic)
Frank did you go to an AFS seminar ? If so was it worth it ? If not
where did you get the info that their system will run 100% ethanol ? I
have'nt found much real info on their website.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly
Off Topic)
When i spoke to Superior they stated Vapour lock as the issue
with ethanol mix...But when i asked if they really meant vapour lock or
simply boiling of fuel in the injector lines ...Which is not vapour lock
I did not get an answer. Secondly with my Airflow Performance system it
can run on 100% ethanol if you so desire.
I have high regard for Superior, don't get me wrong but there
are MANY OWTs out there that one is forced to question. ECI states lead
being a lubricant for valve seats as Gospel for example...I don't buy it
because, 1 it sounds ridiculous and 2 there is more and more evidence to
the contrary. Now in order to preserve the warranty (if there really is
one) ECI demand that you use 100LL duting break in...OK for sure i will
only start feeding in mogas after 25 hours or so...Not worth the risk.
Soo..if you have a properly designed fuel system (my pumps are
in the wingroots) I'm having a hard time understanding the objection to
ethanol mixes...Apart from the fact we're getting short changed (lower
grade fuel)to support our totally excessive farm production of
course...:)
Now it maybe the injector line boiling is so bad it s difficult
to get the engine to run smooth...Definatly a possibility.
I will phone Todd Peterson next week who has offered to fill me
in (metaphorically speaking) on why ehtanol in mogas is a really bad
thing....Not saying that he will be incorrect, just I don't understand
why not at the moment.
Frank
Another 5 hours and i start filling gas cans...Non ethanol...for
now..:)
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:05 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off
Topic)
Excellent article on Ethanol in current Consumer Reports. A
couple things for sure are that Ethanol has 30% less BTU's than Gasoline
125k btu/gal vs. 84.4), thereby translating to 32% less mileage per gal.
Ethanol is cleaner, which I guess is why it is mandated in some parts. I
track my car gas mileage very closely and get 8% less mpg when using a
mix. The math doesn't come out quite right with the btu's, but it is a
fact, at least for my car. It is alleged that Ethanol rots some seals,
gaskets. My 1996 Honda motorcycle specifically disallows it's use. There
is no way I'll ever use a mix of gas/ethanol in my aircraft. Superior
also bans Ethanol btw, although encourages use of premium mogas for
their XP360's...
FWIW, .02, etc.
Jerry Cochran
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
George (Corvallis)"
Indeed yes are...but do you measure the RVP before you
use it?...Even if
the RVP is a little high you can ajust your flying to
suit.
As a bit of an aside I probably wouldn't store mogas for
6 months before
using it.
More of a question is wat if ethanol appears in the
mix...i have an
invite to phone Todd at Peterson for the low down on why
not to use
Ethanol...I'm not convinced on that one...at least not
yet.
More to come
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
Dennis.
I might be late with this comment.... But Cannon Plugs, Cannon Plugs, Cannon
Plugs..... Did I say Cannon Plugs?
You can get them in various densities. I'd try to keep it to 3 or 4 and
group things together in logical sense.
I know you can get them Lancair, or there are probably other sources as
well. I've not gone there yet, but when I do, it will be Deutch connectors
and Cannon plugs you can be assured.
Also, heat-shrink labelers are pretty cheap and are available on ebay to
help keep things grouped and sorted and labeled.
Alan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Johnson
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Connectors vs. Straight Wire
Greetings,
The entire instrument panel on my Lancair Legacy I'm building is attached to
the airframe with only four bolts and is therefore relatively easy to remove
in one large piece. That is, mechanically easy to remove, if it weren't for
a bazillion wires connecting it to the airframe. On the other hand, the
Legacy has a front hinged canopy and a removable glare shield, which provide
reasonably good access to the rear of the instrument panel while it is in
place.
I can either run the wires from the airframe directly to the various
components on the panel or I can insert D-Sub connectors between all the
wires and the instrument panel. If I use connectors, it will make removing
the instrument panel easier for repairs or upgrades. Running the wires
directly to the panel, without connectors, will reduce the parts count but
make future service more difficult.
I'm torn between the two alternatives. My first thought was to add
connectors to every wire in the expectation that I'll almost certainly want
to remove the instrument panel at some point in the future for
troubleshooting, repairs, or upgrades. Working on the panel while it's on
my workbench is soooooo convenient. But there are tons of wires, many of
them shielded, and running every single one of them through a connector is a
big project. Considering that I have reasonable access to the rear of the
panel with the canopy open and the glareshield removed, should I just plan
to service the panel with it in place? Anybody who's "been there, done
that" have any advice?
Thanks,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy; painting done, still wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 396/496 Connections |
Actually, you do have instructions - they are in the GPS unit's Pilot's
Guide toward the back. Even has a diagram to show you how it all hooks up.
The "Voice" lines are external speaker lines for the auto-navigation speak
output - "turn right in 100 feet", etc. Has nothing to do with "aviation"
related features as all of those warnings and XM music all come out the
audio plug.
Hope that helps.
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Chamberlain" <mchamberlain(at)runbox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 3:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 396/496 Connections
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I just purchased a bare wire data lead for the Garmin 396/496. It has
> several wires coming out of it, there are a couple labeled: Voice (-),
> Voice (+), alarm etc. Unfortunately there are no instructions as to where
> they are supposed to go. For example is the "alarm" wire for an audio
> alarm and therefore needs to be routed to a unswitched audio hook up? Or
> should it go to a light on the panel? What are the "Voice" wires for? Some
> sort of voice audio warnings or voice in to the unit? Not sure what they
> would be for as the audio out of the unit is stereo and therefor requires
> 3 wires, not just 2.
>
> If any of you guys have used this data cable to hard wire you GPS could
> you throw some light on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark - RV-7 finishing up last 5%
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
| From: | "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net> |
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the reply to my question about connectors to allow removing the instrument
panel. You suggested Cannon plugs. It seems to me that Cannon plugs are
more expensive and less convenient to install than D-Sub connectors. I hope
there's not a fundamental problem with D-Subs because nearly every electronic
component I installed came with D-Subs on the back.
Best,
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65345#65345
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
Oh, I think they would work ok... Except, I had one bad experience. I had a
monitor with a 15pin D-Sub on it. It worked for a couple of years and then
all of a sudden it started to flake out... I found that the "tension" on the
female pins started to fail. I would have to "cock" the connector in order
that the colors on the monitor appeared correct. Finally, it just wouldn't
take any jiggling to get the colors right and I had to buy a new monitor.
YMMV, but there are lots of kinds of Cannon plugs, and it's a one time
investment. For something like interconnects that have to survive in
"hostile" environments, its just my preference, but I'll use cannon plugs.
Good luck btw, can't wait to see yours sometime :)...
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Johnson
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 8:26 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Connectors vs. Straight Wire
-->
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the reply to my question about connectors to allow removing the
instrument panel. You suggested Cannon plugs. It seems to me that Cannon
plugs are more expensive and less convenient to install than D-Sub
connectors. I hope there's not a fundamental problem with D-Subs because
nearly every electronic component I installed came with D-Subs on the back.
Best,
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65345#65345
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
My comment will probably be a little different from the typical..but, I'd
push you to do as much straight wiring as possible. On my 1st plane I did
the Canon Plug thing all over the place.....have you ever tried to
troubleshoot an electrical gremlin through a bunch of canon plugs or D-Subs?
It's a pain in the rear. Once you add hundreds of pins, that's hundreds of
new joints that are potential future problem areas.
Next, why do you really need them? Sure, it sounds like a great idea, but
really....how many times do you actually take a panel in and out of plane?
As far as individual components, it only takes a couple screws to drop out
any of the EFIS's out there, radios slide out of trays, etc..., so you don't
get much advantage there. Next, even if you wanted you shouldn't run
everything through canon plugs. Audio Wires specifically can get really
touchy running them through connectors...all the headset, mic, aux leads
are/should be shielded and breaking that shield just creates another area
for noise and more gremlins to move in. You can't shouldn't split EGT/CHT
wires, nor some other sensor wires along with the heavy wires. Basically,
it looks good at airshows and in magazines, but the truth of the matter is
it's almost impossible to get by NOT hooking some things directly to your
panel anyway and then there you are with a bunch of nice looking canon
plugs, then you Still have to remove things from the panel anyway....point
is no matter what your intentions you'll still probably have a bunch of
stuff hooked directly to the panel anyway (pitot tubing, static tubing,
maybe some antennas, fat battery wires, 02 lines if you have them, "P" leads
which shouldn't be broke, air vents lines, push/pull cables, so on and so
forth).
I guess I'm trying to say that anytime you added un-needed connections to a
particular system you are just asking for longer term troubles and an
overall reduction in reliability. Keep It Simple! Most of today's major
components come out of the panels so easily that I can't see a huge benefit
of just adding connectors in case someday you might want to yank the whole
panel out?
The point is you should wire and build your airplane for the 99th percentile
of it's functionality and reliability, not the 1% "whatifs". I don't know
if this all makes sense or not, but if it were me (and it is dozens of times
we discuss panels with customers), I really try to put function ahead of
form and convince people to do what makes sense from a functional, reliable
and simplicity standpoint. You can't beat it!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dennis
Johnson
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:34 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Connectors vs. Straight Wire
Greetings,
The entire instrument panel on my Lancair Legacy I'm building is attached
to the airframe with only four bolts and is therefore relatively easy to
remove in one large piece. That is, mechanically easy to remove, if it
weren't for a bazillion wires connecting it to the airframe. On the other
hand, the Legacy has a front hinged canopy and a removable glare shield,
which provide reasonably good access to the rear of the instrument panel
while it is in place.
I can either run the wires from the airframe directly to the various
components on the panel or I can insert D-Sub connectors between all the
wires and the instrument panel. If I use connectors, it will make removing
the instrument panel easier for repairs or upgrades. Running the wires
directly to the panel, without connectors, will reduce the parts count but
make future service more difficult.
I'm torn between the two alternatives. My first thought was to add
connectors to every wire in the expectation that I'll almost certainly want
to remove the instrument panel at some point in the future for
troubleshooting, repairs, or upgrades. Working on the panel while it's on
my workbench is soooooo convenient. But there are tons of wires, many of
them shielded, and running every single one of them through a connector is a
big project. Considering that I have reasonable access to the rear of the
panel with the canopy open and the glareshield removed, should I just plan
to service the panel with it in place? Anybody who's "been there, done
that" have any advice?
Thanks,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy; painting done, still wiring the panel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> I guess I'm trying to say that anytime you added un-needed connections to a particular
system
> you are just asking for longer term troubles and an overall reduction in reliability.
____________________________________________
Spot on! Besides, you'll have a lot of the panel terminated in
connectors of one sort or another anyway....how hard to remove
those.....
Tho I kinda wish the D-sub folks would go back to the old
Centronics wire bail form of shell attachment. No trying to get
the screw driver on the screw head in a spot you can't easily see.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Glowing LED Warning Lights, Too Dark Now-LM317 |
The brightness of an LED is proportional to the current going through
it. You need a resistor in series with each LED to limit the max
current and max brightness. Connecting all those resistors to the output
of your LM317 should do what you want. When you dim (lower the voltage
ouput of the LED) there will be less voltage drop through each resistor
and the brightness will reduce. That brightness should not change
regardless of how many LED's are on because each LED has its own
resistor. I think that is your answer - a separate resistor for each
LED. Of course with this description, it is assumed that individual
LED's are turned on by connecting its negative lead to ground.
Ken L.
CardinalNSB(at)aol.com wrote:
> MikeEasley wrote:
>
> My LED voltage warning lights are now too dark to see in daylight
> after
> adding the resistors in the drawing.
>
> Smaller resistors?
>
> I have been "playing" with leds on a breadboard, controlling them with
> a LM317. The LM317 supplies constant voltage, determined by a
> resistance to (the control leg, I don't know the real term). I have
> used a rheostat and been able to control multiple or single leds, from
> very bright to very dim/off. I am planning to make an annunciator for
> a 300xl gps, which always has 2 leds on, sometimes 3, sometimes 4. I
> have the LM317 between the battery positive and the leds, the leds
> taking power from the LM317 with their other leg grounded. The leds
> are in parallel.
>
> A value to me of the LM317 is to be able to maintain constant
> brightness of multiple leds (I plan to use all the same white
> leds with colored lenses for colors). The LM317 is from Radio Shack
> and I have only used the circuit on the back of the box-LM317, a
> resistor, and a rheostat, 3 parts. Could I wire a backup with a zener
> diode for a constant brightness?
>
> However, I have been told this LM317 won't work, that I need Pulse
> Width Modulation. I'm not sure why, the LM317 seems to do what I want
> at least on my desk at home, is cheap and low parts count. I would
> appreciate any reasons this would not be a proper way to control
> multiple identical leds-rf production? Skip Simpson
>
>================
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: fat wire - skinny wires |
>
>
>I seem to remember there being some rationale for not running fat wires in
>the same bundle with skinny wires, but I can find a specific reference to
>it in the "Aero-electric Connenction". Does such a rationale exist, or am
>I suffering from delusions of toxic aircraft chemical fumes?
That was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that the
FAT wires are those that carry largest system currents,
generate the largest local magnetic fields and TEND
to be ranked on the antagonistic side for noise.
Audio, signal and small control wires are SKINNY
types that TEND to be potential victims.
Having said all that, it's easy to design systems
having a mix of antagonistic and victim wires in
very close proximity to each other in same bundles.
But it does take some time, attention and experience
to do this with consistent success.
>My #2 battery cable currently follows a rather tortuous path from the
>tailpost to the front of the plane, and I could be a lot simple (and a few
>pounds lighter), if it just ran down the side with a bunch of wires that
>include microphone/headphone leads, taillight, tail strobe, fuel pump
>powere, and a linear actuator control leads.
As long as you've followed the guidelines for avoiding
multiple grounds (ground loops) within single systems,
the noise risk for bundling the wires you've listed
is very low.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
>
> > I guess I'm trying to say that anytime you added un-needed connections
> to a particular system
> > you are just asking for longer term troubles and an overall reduction
> in reliability.
>____________________________________________
>
>Spot on! Besides, you'll have a lot of the panel terminated in
>connectors of one sort or another anyway....how hard to remove
>those.....
>
>Tho I kinda wish the D-sub folks would go back to the old
>Centronics wire bail form of shell attachment. No trying to get
>the screw driver on the screw head in a spot you can't easily see.
There ARE wire bails for keeping d-subs together. My favorite for
cable-to-cable d-subs is remove the jack-screw hardware and use
tye-wraps to keep them together.
Also, I'd ALWAYS use the machined d-sub pins. They're of the
same pedigree as the older and larger 'Cannon' plugs, etc.
I'm REALLY disappointed that folks who sell really expensive
avionics ship those sheet-metal, b-crimp pins with their
radios.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
>
>Hello Eric
>
>You wrote:
>
>"So the manufacturer says, "mount plunger vertical, cap down"
>
>I have never taken apart or looked very close at the relay that is being
>talked about.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1a.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1b.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1c.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1e.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1f.jpg
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
>
>Anybody have a centrifuge with accelerometer and want to conduct a little
>experiment?
>
>Dave Morris
I've done this already . . . but the rationale for mounting
the contactor in any particular orientation has yet to be
supported by the underlying simple-ideas.
Yes, that's what the data sheet says but fails to explain
why. An there's a famous Tyco white paper that makes some
perfectly good measurements from which the authors then
infer but never demonstrate deleterious effects that
are not driven by the same science.
There IS a reason why mounting the contactor under
discussion cap down is a good idea and we've already
hat-danced around it . . . and it's for consideration
of g-forces.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MikeEasley(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RE: Garmin 396/496 Connections |
The power data cable only has mono audio output. You need to wire the mini
phone jack into your audio panel, one of the entertainment inputs. I bought
a 15' extension cable for the audio connection. You can also drive most
autopilots from the 396/496 also. So in my installation I only used the power
and ground wires in the power data cable.
I've contemplated cutting the XM antenna wire at the antenna and making a
short pigtail so I can route wire to the XM antenna location and just plug in
the antenna before flight. Just haven't got up the nerve to cut and splice
the wires yet.
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs
Lancair ES
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re:Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
>
>I think it is time for someone with a little authority to clear this up.
>My authority is so little that I have hidden it under one of the periods
>in this posting. A prize awaits the one who finds it.
>
>1) Relay mounting. Type 70 Stancor Rodgers White Emerson Tyco. See:
>
>http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/STANCOR/Stancor_Industrial-Control_5760005.pdf
>
>So the manufacturer says, "mount plunger vertical, cap down". I checked
>into the engineering data on this part and of course the corporate
>conglomeratization has destroyed the engineering knowledge that built the
>part. The manufacturer PROMISED they'd get back to me.....It's not DO-160
>bubela. And it's only 122 deg F max operating temp. Etc. etc.
Why would you suppose they would make this recommendation?
Is the engineering knowledge behind the recommendation
so esoteric that we cannot deduce it for ourselves?
> Use the Kilovac EV200 part if you can.
Of course everyone CAN . . . it's a matter of trades.
What is the return on investment for the trade . . .
and is there more than one trade?
>"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less
>obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no
>solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There
>are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight
>lines."
> - R. Buckminster Fuller
Interesting quotation . . . I'm fond of quotations
that offer simple-ideas of easily discovered utility.
How would you propose we use the learned gentleman's
to guide our deliberations?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< You can never learn less, you can only learn more. >
< R. Buckminster Fuller >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
Anybody have a centrifuge with accelerometer and want to conduct a little
experiment?
Dave Morris
I've done this already . . . but the rationale for mounting
the contactor in any particular orientation has yet to be
supported by the underlying simple-ideas.
Yes, that's what the data sheet says but fails to explain
why. An there's a famous Tyco white paper that makes some
perfectly good measurements from which the authors then
infer but never demonstrate deleterious effects that
are not driven by the same science.
There IS a reason why mounting the contactor under
discussion cap down is a good idea and we've already
hat-danced around it . . . and it's NOT for consideration
of g-forces.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Campbell" <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator test lead |
This has already been answered, but to add a little perspective and some
math to the answer...
1) What is the purpose of the resistor in the voltage sense line? To
prevent bad things from happening if the other end of the voltage sense line
(or some point in the middle) accidentally shorts to ground, or in the case
of a alternator field, shorts to positive.
2) What's the "worst case" scenario for the particular application? If you
had a voltage sense lead running to say a battery, and the other end shorts
to ground - it would try and draw hundreds of amps through a tiny sense
wire. If the sense wire is small, it might act like a fusible link and go
poof. (Good!) If it is big wire (you used some spare #10 wire for
"sturdiness"), then it might act like a dandy heater and fire starter.
(Bad!)
3) What's the "cure" ? Add a resistor in line with the voltage test point
that's suitable for the "worst case". So even if you used some spare #8
wire for your voltage sense wire, but - at the battery end - you added a
1000 ohm resistor, then in a 14v system (with the alternator ON), a short
would produce a maximum of 0.014 Amps or 0.196 Watts. Not much of a heater
or a fire starter. (Good!) And at 0.196 Watts, a quarter Watt 1000 ohm
resistor could happily dissipate that heat all day long without getting too
hot.
4) What if it's a 28v system? At 28volts, a 1000 ohm resistor will draw
0.028Amps, and since Watts = Volts * Amps, or Amps^2 * Resistance, a paltry
0.784 Watts. A quarter watt resistor will get extremely hot and may even
fail open. A larger 1/2 Watt resistor will get nasty hot. A 1 Watt
resistor will get toasty warm, but can handle that load all day long
depending on how it's mounted. (The Watt rating is almost always about
surface area and ventilation.)
Arguably, you might prefer the resistor to act as a fusible link in a
situation like that. So a 1/8 Watt resistor might be the resistor of
choice. One good overload and "poof", no more resistor. Of course, no more
voltage sensing either - leading to erroneous conclusions as to the nature
of the problem.
The best way to tell what your resistor will behave like is to short it out
and see how hot it gets. If it's going to be bundled with other wires,
covered with a boot, etc.. it's best to simulate those conditions as well.
5) In the case of a voltage sense wire on an alternator field, you also have
to be concerned about what happens if the voltage sense wire shorts out to
positive. If the sense wire were capable of supplying several amps to the
alternator field, you could get a runaway alternator over voltage. By
adding the resistor, you prevent it from supplying more than a few tenths of
an amp to the field.
6) Doing the math backwards on a 28volt system:
a one Watt resistor of 784 ohms or higher will be fine all day long
a 1/2 Watt resistor of 1,568 ohms or higher will be fine all day long
a 1/4 Watt resistor of 3,136 ohms or higher will be fine all day long...
For a 14 volts system, divide all the Ohms by 4...
a one Watt resistor of 196 ohms will handle 1 Watt all day long (with proper
ventilation)
a 1/2 Watt resistor of 392 ohms will handle 1/2 Watt all day long
a 1/4 Watt resistor of 784 ohms will handle 1/4 Watt all day long
7) Don't fall for the common mistake of trying to "double up" resistors in
parallel to get the "required" 1 Watt rating. If you take two 1000 Ohm 1/2
Watt resistors (more readily available than 1 Watt resistors, plus they come
two to the pack.) and put them in parallel you won't be happy with the
results because...
You've created a 500 ohm "resistor network" (use your ohmmeter and you'll
see)... So on a 28v system it will draw MORE amps and MORE Watts, and each
of your 1/2 resistors will be trying to dissipate 0.784 Watts and not very
happy about it.
So... if you're rooting through the parts bins and all you can find are 1/4
or 1/2 Watt resistors, then use the larger ohm values. Double the
resistance value if necessary. It won't make a difference to your
voltmeter, and if you accidentally short things out - it won't create smoke
& funny smells where you don't want it to.
If all you can find are two 1000 Ohm 1/4 Watt Resistors, I'd be more
inclined to put them in series for an effective resistance of 2000 ohms.
This would dissipate 0.098 Watts in a 14v system, and 0.392 Watts (total) in
a 28v system. The heat dissipated by each resistor would be half that, well
within the limits of a 1/4 Watt resistor.
Bob's probably right - any resistor in the 200 to 2000 ohm range will do,
especially in the 1 Watt size.
I prefer to use resistors in the 1000 to 3000 ohm range in the more common
1/4 or 1/2 Watt sizes.
If you have a 28v System, I'd use the higher resistance values, but you can
do the math.
The really important thing is that you put the resistor close to the
"source",
not at the measuring end of the "sense wire".
It's kind of like a fuse - you want it to protect the entire run of the
wire, not the "end device"
which is your voltmeter.
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> There ARE wire bails for keeping d-subs together. My favorite for
> cable-to-cable d-subs is remove the jack-screw hardware and use
> tye-wraps to keep them together.
Must be rarer than hens teeth....all I can find is the IDC D-sub
w/bail locks. Did find a bail lock kit...going price was $7 a pop
with one vendor down to $3. Your Ty Wraps look better all the
time.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
I'll take a stab. Mounting "cap down" means that gravity (and a bit of
engine vibration) will separate the main current contacts after the coil
is de-energized should the internal compression spring fail. Mounting
the other way would have the contacts potentially closing due gravity if
the spring failed with potential for all sorts of unhappy results.
Thanks to Bob for the nice internal pictures of this style of contactor.
(I seem to have several of them in use personally).
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
RV-6A & RV-3
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anybody have a centrifuge with accelerometer and want to conduct a
> little experiment?
>
> Dave Morris
>
> I've done this already . . . but the rationale for mounting
> the contactor in any particular orientation has yet to be
> supported by the underlying simple-ideas.
>
> Yes, that's what the data sheet says but fails to explain
> why. An there's a famous Tyco white paper that makes some
> perfectly good measurements from which the authors then
> infer but never demonstrate deleterious effects that
> are not driven by the same science.
>
> There IS a reason why mounting the contactor under
> discussion cap down is a good idea and we've already
> hat-danced around it . . . and it's NOT for consideration
> of g-forces.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Hi ,I'm building an rv10,and I have contradictories informations about how install
the antennas,the counselor and a couple of "masters" say clean the metal from
any paint and install the antenna,but the manufacturer send it with a cork
gasket(one of the best insulation ),to install .
any logical for this.
Thanks.
Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: vhf antennas |
>
>Hi ,I'm building an rv10,and I have contradictories informations about how
>install the antennas,the counselor and a couple of "masters" say clean the
>metal from any paint and install the antenna,but the manufacturer send it
>with a cork gasket(one of the best insulation ),to install .
>any logical for this.
>Thanks.
>Hugo
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Antenna_Installation.gif
From some earlier posts:
>A while back you had some words of wisdom for a person who'd asked about
>getting enough metal to metal contact for ground plane purposes with his
>comm antenna. You mentioned to him that riveting his doubler plates to the
>skin would provide plenty of contact when paint and other debris was
>squeezed out during the riveting process. I have a little different twist
>on this question. I made doubler plates to go inside the fuselage but don't
>really want to rivet them on. The number of fasteners that hold the
>antennas to the airplane will hold doublers to the skin and I don't see a
>need to rivet the doublers on. This however, could cause trouble. Since
>I've already primed the inside of the aluminum fuselage skin, would like to
>prime the doublers so they don't corrode when water gets between them and
>the fuselage skin and don't want to remove the primer from the skin......I
>fear I will have insufficient connection to get good ground plane action.
>The comm antennas come with a cork gasket that's supposed to go between the
>outside skin and the antenna so that limits ground plane connection on the
>outside skin (presently bare aluminum). Am I gonna have to bite the bullet
>and rivet the doublers to get some connection or ????(the doublers have
>nutplates riveted to them to accept the antenna fasteners). Any words of
>wisdom here? The antennas are the standard store bought COMANT bent whips.
>Thanks.
Welcome to the club. When somebody decides to design a new airplane,
they start with aero and power plant guys. Then come the structures
and processes folks. After awhile the systems folks put in fuel,
hydraulics and flight controls. When the 'airplane' is done, some
guy with radios, cabin entertainment systems, etc is told, "Okay,
you can have whatever space is left over . . . but don't CHANGE
anything."
This approach to an HF antenna installation (without CHANGING
anything) has resulted in a situation where other equipment items
inside the all metal airplane are suffering huge interfering
energies from the HF transmitter. Had the structures and processes
guys been involved since day-one to make the metal serve as both
airplane and antenna, we'd have several $millions$ still in the
corporate pockets instead of blowing that cash on band-aid
fixes to delivered aircraft.
Now, on a much smaller scale, you're presented with the same
kind of problem. The laws of physics are immutable. The primary,
long term, gas-tight connections between your antenna base and
airframe happen right under the head and nut of the fasteners.
If you need a doubler, then it needs to be well bonded
to the airframe . . . and that means rivets or high pressure
joints between ground conductors. If you choose not to
rivet the doubler, you need to clean 2 extra surfaces before
installation. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Antenna_Installation.gif
If the doubler is riveted, then surfaces between doubler
and skin can be left as-manufactured but it wouldn't hurt
to clean these too. I'd pitch the cork gasket and go for a
thin bead of moisture sealant around outside edge of antenna
base that extrudes out to zero-thickness at time of
installation. PRESSURE and CLEANLINESS around the immediate
circumference of the mounting screws is where it all happens.
>Bob,
>Speaking of the magic (grounding the base) - looking at the
>Antenna_Installation.gif ,
>I have seen toothed lock washers used between the doubler plate and skin.
>This was on a Cessna. The doubler plate was not riveted to the skin (it
>came with with the antenna replacement kit). The lock washer assured better
>el contact (grounding). They used externally toothed lock washers, as per
>attached. Maybe a better idea would be to use the external-internal toothed
>type washers (also attached). Opinions?
We're really slice'n and dice'n mouse hairs here. Obviously
the goal is to get a low ohms connection between the antenna
base and the skin that is as good 10 years from now as it is
the day we bolt it on. This comes down to a few simple-ideas:
(1) pressure high enough to bring two clean surfaces into intimate
gas tight contact with each other and (2) exclusion of environmental
effects that include (a) contaminants and (b) loosening that work
against condition (1).
Some designers embrace the idea that the toothed lockwashers
provide a multitude of very high pressure points . . . even to
the point of upsetting metal at the points of contact to achieve
(1). My concerns are that a toothed washer is a spacer between
the two surfaces that may contribute to initial joint quality (1)
but leaves the gap "open" for ingress of (a).
In all of our bonding specs at RAC, the use of lockwashers is
never suggested. Self locking all metal nuts are the preferred
anti-loosening technology. In the sketch I published, 99% of the
magic needs to happen in the area just around the screw hole and
between skin and antenna base. All other "prepared" areas add
only marginally to the quality of the joint.
Obviously, the "99% conductivity area" is of very small gap and
the only thing one might add is sealant or anti-moisture guckum (Like
silocone grease) to fill the tiny void around the periphery
of the 99% area to prevent entry of oxidizing agents. Beyond
that, maintainance of pressure over time is enhanced by use
of largest practical hardware torqued to upper limits and
secured with some form of locking technology . . . all metal
locknuts being the technology of choice.
When we were selling contactors with treaded studs for fat wires,
the split-ring, steel washers supplied were discarded and replaced with
internal tooth, phosphor bronze lockwashers. The supplied steel
nuts were replaced with brass. Again, the lion's share of conductive
magic happens were the terminal comes down against the bottom nut.
The lockwasher and nut on top contributes to conductivity but
only a tiny fraction of the total.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
>
>I'll take a stab. Mounting "cap down" means that gravity (and a bit of
>engine vibration) will separate the main current contacts after the coil
>is de-energized should the internal compression spring fail. Mounting the
>other way would have the contacts potentially closing due gravity if the
>spring failed with potential for all sorts of unhappy results.
Okay, gravity is a player here (my earlier post spoke of
g-forces which should have been qualified further to
aerodynamic g-forces). Suppose we hypothesize that the
spring is not going to fail. Now how does orientation
affect operation?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
>
> > There ARE wire bails for keeping d-subs together. My favorite for
> > cable-to-cable d-subs is remove the jack-screw hardware and use
> > tye-wraps to keep them together.
>
>Must be rarer than hens teeth....all I can find is the IDC D-sub
>w/bail locks. Did find a bail lock kit...going price was $7 a pop
>with one vendor down to $3. Your Ty Wraps look better all the
>time.
Take a look at page 17 of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/ITT_Cannon/dsub_accessories.pdf
The next greatest thing are Positronic's V series spring
loaded slide latches. See page 10 of:
http://www.connectpositronic.com/pdf/SubDAccess_C007RevB1.pdf
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: vhf antennas |
Ok, thats made everybody against the manufacturers,I will follow the mass.
Thanks
>
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
> Date: 2006/10/03 Tue PM 01:08:28 EDT
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: vhf antennas
>
>
>
> >
> >Hi ,I'm building an rv10,and I have contradictories informations about how
> >install the antennas,the counselor and a couple of "masters" say clean the
> >metal from any paint and install the antenna,but the manufacturer send it
> >with a cork gasket(one of the best insulation ),to install .
> >any logical for this.
> >Thanks.
> >Hugo
>
>
> See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Antenna_Installation.gif
>
> From some earlier posts:
>
> >A while back you had some words of wisdom for a person who'd asked about
> >getting enough metal to metal contact for ground plane purposes with his
> >comm antenna. You mentioned to him that riveting his doubler plates to the
> >skin would provide plenty of contact when paint and other debris was
> >squeezed out during the riveting process. I have a little different twist
> >on this question. I made doubler plates to go inside the fuselage but don't
> >really want to rivet them on. The number of fasteners that hold the
> >antennas to the airplane will hold doublers to the skin and I don't see a
> >need to rivet the doublers on. This however, could cause trouble. Since
> >I've already primed the inside of the aluminum fuselage skin, would like to
> >prime the doublers so they don't corrode when water gets between them and
> >the fuselage skin and don't want to remove the primer from the skin......I
> >fear I will have insufficient connection to get good ground plane action.
> >The comm antennas come with a cork gasket that's supposed to go between the
> >outside skin and the antenna so that limits ground plane connection on the
> >outside skin (presently bare aluminum). Am I gonna have to bite the bullet
> >and rivet the doublers to get some connection or ????(the doublers have
> >nutplates riveted to them to accept the antenna fasteners). Any words of
> >wisdom here? The antennas are the standard store bought COMANT bent whips.
> >Thanks.
>
>
> Welcome to the club. When somebody decides to design a new airplane,
> they start with aero and power plant guys. Then come the structures
> and processes folks. After awhile the systems folks put in fuel,
> hydraulics and flight controls. When the 'airplane' is done, some
> guy with radios, cabin entertainment systems, etc is told, "Okay,
> you can have whatever space is left over . . . but don't CHANGE
> anything."
>
> This approach to an HF antenna installation (without CHANGING
> anything) has resulted in a situation where other equipment items
> inside the all metal airplane are suffering huge interfering
> energies from the HF transmitter. Had the structures and processes
> guys been involved since day-one to make the metal serve as both
> airplane and antenna, we'd have several $millions$ still in the
> corporate pockets instead of blowing that cash on band-aid
> fixes to delivered aircraft.
>
> Now, on a much smaller scale, you're presented with the same
> kind of problem. The laws of physics are immutable. The primary,
> long term, gas-tight connections between your antenna base and
> airframe happen right under the head and nut of the fasteners.
>
> If you need a doubler, then it needs to be well bonded
> to the airframe . . . and that means rivets or high pressure
> joints between ground conductors. If you choose not to
> rivet the doubler, you need to clean 2 extra surfaces before
> installation. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Antenna_Installation.gif
>
>
> If the doubler is riveted, then surfaces between doubler
> and skin can be left as-manufactured but it wouldn't hurt
> to clean these too. I'd pitch the cork gasket and go for a
> thin bead of moisture sealant around outside edge of antenna
> base that extrudes out to zero-thickness at time of
> installation. PRESSURE and CLEANLINESS around the immediate
> circumference of the mounting screws is where it all happens.
>
>
> >Bob,
> >Speaking of the magic (grounding the base) - looking at the
> >Antenna_Installation.gif ,
> >I have seen toothed lock washers used between the doubler plate and skin.
> >This was on a Cessna. The doubler plate was not riveted to the skin (it
> >came with with the antenna replacement kit). The lock washer assured better
> >el contact (grounding). They used externally toothed lock washers, as per
> >attached. Maybe a better idea would be to use the external-internal toothed
> >type washers (also attached). Opinions?
>
> We're really slice'n and dice'n mouse hairs here. Obviously
> the goal is to get a low ohms connection between the antenna
> base and the skin that is as good 10 years from now as it is
> the day we bolt it on. This comes down to a few simple-ideas:
> (1) pressure high enough to bring two clean surfaces into intimate
> gas tight contact with each other and (2) exclusion of environmental
> effects that include (a) contaminants and (b) loosening that work
> against condition (1).
>
> Some designers embrace the idea that the toothed lockwashers
> provide a multitude of very high pressure points . . . even to
> the point of upsetting metal at the points of contact to achieve
> (1). My concerns are that a toothed washer is a spacer between
> the two surfaces that may contribute to initial joint quality (1)
> but leaves the gap "open" for ingress of (a).
>
> In all of our bonding specs at RAC, the use of lockwashers is
> never suggested. Self locking all metal nuts are the preferred
> anti-loosening technology. In the sketch I published, 99% of the
> magic needs to happen in the area just around the screw hole and
> between skin and antenna base. All other "prepared" areas add
> only marginally to the quality of the joint.
>
> Obviously, the "99% conductivity area" is of very small gap and
> the only thing one might add is sealant or anti-moisture guckum (Like
> silocone grease) to fill the tiny void around the periphery
> of the 99% area to prevent entry of oxidizing agents. Beyond
> that, maintainance of pressure over time is enhanced by use
> of largest practical hardware torqued to upper limits and
> secured with some form of locking technology . . . all metal
> locknuts being the technology of choice.
>
> When we were selling contactors with treaded studs for fat wires,
> the split-ring, steel washers supplied were discarded and replaced with
> internal tooth, phosphor bronze lockwashers. The supplied steel
> nuts were replaced with brass. Again, the lion's share of conductive
> magic happens were the terminal comes down against the bottom nut.
> The lockwasher and nut on top contributes to conductivity but
> only a tiny fraction of the total.
>
> Bob. . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Moreau" <jmoreau2(at)cox.net> |
I am installing Whelen wingtip strobes on my RV8. I have installed a molex multi-pin
plug at the wing root in the event that I ever have to remove the wings.
Does anyone feel that this is inviting a problem with electrial "noise" in my system.
I know that this is a shielded cable. I am a novice and would welcome
any comments or suggestions.
Jeff
--------
Jeff Moreau
RV8A
Virginia Beach, VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65535#65535
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Oke <wjoke(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
Well, "cap down" means that gravity (in the usual aerodynamic sense of
positive G maneuvering loads) will assist the internal spring in
separating the high current contacts when the coil energizing current is
removed. This would help in opening sticking contacts due to dirt,
deteriorated contact surfaces, and the like.
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> I'll take a stab. Mounting "cap down" means that gravity (and a bit
>> of engine vibration) will separate the main current contacts after
>> the coil is de-energized should the internal compression spring fail.
>> Mounting the other way would have the contacts potentially closing
>> due gravity if the spring failed with potential for all sorts of
>> unhappy results.
>
> Okay, gravity is a player here (my earlier post spoke of
> g-forces which should have been qualified further to
> aerodynamic g-forces). Suppose we hypothesize that the
> spring is not going to fail. Now how does orientation
> affect operation?
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe Wiring |
Jeff,
Having installed a system with similar plugs etc, I could only say that
I've never experienced electrical noise with the strobes active or not.
They've been unplugged several times. Good plugs........
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Jeff Moreau wrote:
>
>I am installing Whelen wingtip strobes on my RV8. I have installed a molex multi-pin
plug at the wing root in the event that I ever have to remove the wings.
>Does anyone feel that this is inviting a problem with electrial "noise" in my
system. I know that this is a shielded cable. I am a novice and would welcome
any comments or suggestions.
>Jeff
>
>--------
>Jeff Moreau
>RV8A
>Virginia Beach, VA
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65535#65535
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Eric said:
> I think it is time for someone with a little authority to clear this up.
> My authority is so little that I have hidden it under one of the periods
> in this posting. A prize awaits the one who finds it.
>
> 1) Relay mounting. Type 70 Stancor Rodgers White Emerson Tyco. See:
>
> http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/STANCOR/Stancor_Industrial-Control_5760005.pdf
>
> So the manufacturer says, "mount plunger vertical, cap down". I checked
> into the engineering data on this part and of course the corporate
> conglomeratization has destroyed the engineering knowledge that built the
> part. The manufacturer PROMISED they'd get back to me.....It's not DO-160 bubela.
And it's only 122 deg F max operating temp. Etc. etc.
Bob replied:
> Why would you suppose they would make this recommendation? Is the engineering
knowledge behind the recommendation so esoteric that we cannot deduce it for
ourselves?
I assume we can figure it out. My analysis is that the type-70 contactor has poor
water-tightness (especially around the electrical terminals). This is a bit
less of a problem with the cap down. Also, when energized the plunger contacts
an iron stop that is part of the magnetic circuit when closed. There is no room
in the space and the plunger MUST be allowed to contact the stop or the coil
will draw excessive current, etc.--The cap-down orientation prevents accumulation
of debris in the plunger-stop space. So my vote is that gravity is the
lesser issue. On the other hand the contactor was designed for cars, not airplanes--so
who knows what they considered.
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less
> obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no
> solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There
> are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight
> lines."
> - R. Buckminster Fuller
Bob . . .
> Interesting quotation . . . I'm fond of quotations
> that offer simple-ideas of easily discovered utility.
> How would you propose we use the learned gentleman's
> to guide our deliberations?
>
Bob, I like this quotation because Fuller suggests casting out "learned" assumptions
and looking at problems without preconceptions. This is more philosophical
than practical of course, but I like the idea that what we should begin by
assuming everything we know is wrong.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65550#65550
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
At 03:37 PM 10/3/2006, you wrote:
>Bob, I like this quotation because Fuller suggests casting out
>"learned" assumptions and looking at problems without
>preconceptions. This is more philosophical than practical of course,
>but I like the idea that what we should begin by assuming everything
>we know is wrong.
Or at least more complicated than we were first taught. For instance
in that Physics 101 class when the teacher (foolishly) said "assume
this is done in a vacuum and there is no drag". Then you find out
the earth is not a perfect sphere, the adiabatic lapse rate is not
uniform, electrons do not flow from positive to negative, and so
on. It's really depressing ;)
Dave Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> |
Is the term "pull to low" synonomous with connect to ground?
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65568#65568
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "raymondj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
Mr. Nuckolls,
I am disappointed and saddened to see you engaging in the "I've got a
secret" style of information dissemination.
If it is in the archive, please say so.
If you have the answer, please give it.
Cordially,
Raymond Julian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink
(CORRECTION)
>
>I'll take a stab. Mounting "cap down" means that gravity (and a bit of
>engine vibration) will separate the main current contacts after the coil
>is de-energized should the internal compression spring fail. Mounting the
>other way would have the contacts potentially closing due gravity if the
>spring failed with potential for all sorts of unhappy results.
Okay, gravity is a player here (my earlier post spoke of
g-forces which should have been qualified further to
aerodynamic g-forces). Suppose we hypothesize that the
spring is not going to fail. Now how does orientation
affect operation?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
That's probably a safe way to interpret that direction..
As a point of note, there are several different specification standards
for the digital electrical signaling that is used to make one device
communicate with another. Some examples are TTL, LVTTL, SSTL.. Each one
may have a somewhat different definition for what voltage level is
required on an input for the device to interpret the signal as a logic
"low" (or zero). For many (most) applications, grounding an input will be
interpreted as a logic low signal. Some interfaces allow an input to
float up to 600mV (or higher) and still be interpreted as a low.
Hope that helps..
Regards,
Matt-
>
> Is the term "pull to low" synonomous with connect to ground?
>
> --------
> Milt
> N395V
> F1 Rocket
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65568#65568
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
It's a paedagogic style. One that has fallen out of favor recently
and has been replaced with "when you take the test, the answer will be ...."
I was trained old-school, and I like the way Bob teaches. It
encourages independent thought.
Dave Morris
At 05:51 PM 10/3/2006, you wrote:
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
> I am disappointed and saddened to see you engaging in the "I've got a
>secret" style of information dissemination.
>
> If it is in the archive, please say so.
>
> If you have the answer, please give it.
>
>Cordially,
>Raymond Julian
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:11 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink
>(CORRECTION)
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >I'll take a stab. Mounting "cap down" means that gravity (and a bit of
> >engine vibration) will separate the main current contacts after the coil
> >is de-energized should the internal compression spring fail. Mounting the
> >other way would have the contacts potentially closing due gravity if the
> >spring failed with potential for all sorts of unhappy results.
>
> Okay, gravity is a player here (my earlier post spoke of
> g-forces which should have been qualified further to
> aerodynamic g-forces). Suppose we hypothesize that the
> spring is not going to fail. Now how does orientation
> affect operation?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
>
>Eric said:
>
> > So the manufacturer says, "mount plunger vertical, cap down". I checked
> > into the engineering data on this part and of course the corporate
> > conglomeratization has destroyed the engineering knowledge that built the
> > part. The manufacturer PROMISED they'd get back to me.....It's not
> DO-160 bubela. And it's only 122 deg F max operating temp. Etc. etc.
>
>
>Bob replied:
> > Why would you suppose they would make this recommendation? Is the
> engineering knowledge behind the recommendation so esoteric that we
> cannot deduce it for ourselves?
>
>
>I assume we can figure it out. My analysis is that the type-70 contactor
>has poor water-tightness (especially around the electrical terminals).
>This is a bit less of a problem with the cap down.
Agreed
> Also, when energized the plunger contacts an iron stop that is part of
> the magnetic circuit when closed. There is no room in the space and the
> plunger MUST be allowed to contact the stop or the coil will draw
> excessive current, etc.
Plunger position or even the presence of a plunger
does not influence static coil current.
>--The cap-down orientation prevents accumulation of debris in the
>plunger-stop space. So my vote is that gravity is the lesser issue. On the
>other hand the contactor was designed for cars, not airplanes--so who
>knows what they considered.
Having disassembled more than a dozen of these
devices over the years, I think we can make a pretty
good guess. The springs are not real strong so the
force of gravity would add a significant aiding
or opposing force depending on orientation. This
wouldn't be much of a concern for getting the critter
closed . . . but contact spreading velocity would
probably see a larger delta due to orientation than
for decay rates of the magnetic field in the coil.
I'll see if I can figure out a way to go measure that
sometime. Also, the bore of the coil bobbin is plastic.
More than one solenoid has become erratic due to
erosion of bobbin interior due to a horizontal
sliding core.
In the case of contact spreading velocity for improved
contact life, cap-down helps. For bobbin erosion,
either vertical orientation would be okay. It MIGHT
be that they considered moisture effects . . . it's
NOT a sealed relay and a non-sealed housing hit with
cool splash WILL suck in water. Better that it's
pooled in the cap than allowed to drip down over
contacts, spring and plunger.
If we were using these devices in an industrial
control situation with hundreds of operations per day
(with expectation for achieving a HIGH percentage
of rated life), then religious observance of orientation
cap-down would probably yield an increase in service life.
Given that these devices in light aircraft operate perhaps
a couple hundred times per year (and at loads much
lighter than rated) the probability is that most
of us will experience a maintenance event on these
contactors due to environmental effects as opposed to
wearing effects.
> >
> > "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less
> > obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no
> > solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There
> > are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight
> > lines."
> > - R. Buckminster Fuller
>
>
>Bob . . .
>
> > Interesting quotation . . . I'm fond of quotations
> > that offer simple-ideas of easily discovered utility.
> > How would you propose we use the learned gentleman's
> > to guide our deliberations?
> >
>
>
>Bob, I like this quotation because Fuller suggests casting out "learned"
>assumptions and looking at problems without preconceptions. This is more
>philosophical than practical of course, but I like the idea that what we
>should begin by assuming everything we know is wrong.
Agreed . . . and according to some demonstrably practical
folks like Dr. Virgil Elings, one should always proceed
forward with a fine attunement to actions that are not
helping or even worse, going in the wrong direction.
I made his one-sided and limited acquaintance when a reader
pointed me to this interview of Dr. Elings at:
http://webcast.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/UCSD_TV/11762.rm
the audio on this presentation was pretty poor. I've
done some post processing on it and placed a temporary
copy at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Temp/Virgil_Elings-Look_at_the_Big_Picture.mp3
I believe both Fuller and Elings would agree that
one of mankind's biggest impediments to progress
is the blind acceptance of preconceptions coupled
with equally blind obedience to those who would hand
out pre-conceptions be they in the form of bad
science or bad plans.
There is risk that some folks grab onto an idea
like the Fuller quotation with a liberal
dose of fundamental attribution error. Like:
"Nothing is real, nothing is what it seems to be.
Everything is irrelevant. Everything I do is
irrelevant. I am irrelevant. Mr. Fuller said so."
That's why I gravitate more toward folks like
Kettering, Kelvin, and most recently Elings.
Their ideas don't take much interpretation.
They really jump out at you. They encourage
healthy skepticism and stand up well to the
repeatable experiment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
> I am disappointed and saddened to see you engaging in the "I've got a
>secret" style of information dissemination.
>
> If it is in the archive, please say so.
>
> If you have the answer, please give it.
I'm disappointed that you're disappointed. When was the last time
you sat down in a class where the instructor walks in and says, "We
have a test next Friday, the answers are on the board. Class
dismissed." If there is no discussion, then there's no
measure of the exchange and retention of ideas. My first
teaching job was at Great Lakes Naval Training Base
40 years ago. Instructors I worked with habitually taught
to the test questions. I refused to do it then and I'm not
going to start now.
Patience my friend. It's not my intent to be secretive
or obtuse.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | [ Larry Rosen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
| From: | Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com> |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Larry Rosen
Lists: AeroElectric-List
Subject: Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/LarryRosen@comcast.net.10.03.2006/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures(at)matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review |
I am currently building a Vans RV-10 and I am to the point where I will
soon need to start the electrical wiring. After thinking through the
various options for the electrical configuration, I decided a single
battery dual alternator design based on Z-13/20 is what I am going to
put into my airplane. Some of the factors into the decision is
redundancy and reliability for my all electric panel, along with my
analysis of the loads for everything I "want" on the e-bus. My load
analysis shows a continuous load of 12 amps with a maximum load (no
diversity) of 25 amps. I modified the base Z diagram to accommodate a
battery that will be mounted in the tail cone.
If you would take a look at my modified Z-13/20 design and comment back
it would be greatly appreciated.
Modifications to the base diagram are highlighted in yellow.
The drawing is in pdf format and you can find it here
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Electic/Elect_R1.pdf>
or a write up and link can be found here
<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Electic/index.html>
Thanks
--
Larry Rosen
RV-10 #356
http://lrosen.nerv10.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: [ Larry Rosen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
The first thing that jumps out Larry is that the starter contactor is
unlikely to ever pull in with the warning light connected in series with the
start button and the coil.
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Email List Photo Shares" <pictures(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:47 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: [ Larry Rosen ] : New Email List Photo Share
Available!
>
>
> A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>
> Poster: Larry Rosen
>
> Lists: AeroElectric-List
>
> Subject: Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/LarryRosen@comcast.net.10.03.2006/index.html
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> o Main Photo Share Index
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
> o Submitting a Photo Share
>
> If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
> following information along with your email message and files:
>
> 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
> 2) Your Full Name:
> 3) Your Email Address:
> 4) One line Subject description:
> 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
> 6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
>
> Email the information above and your files and photos to:
>
> pictures(at)matronics.com
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review |
Ooops pushed send too quickly.
The first thing that jumps out Larry is that the starter contactor is
unlikely to ever pull in with the warning light connected in series with the
start button and the coil. Same comment applies to contactor used to engage
"E" bus in series with its warning light. The warning lights need to be from
the switch/coil junctions to ground and the switches need to apply voltage
directly to the coils.
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:47 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review
>
> I am currently building a Vans RV-10 and I am to the point where I will
> soon need to start the electrical wiring. After thinking through the
> various options for the electrical configuration, I decided a single
> battery dual alternator design based on Z-13/20 is what I am going to
> put into my airplane. Some of the factors into the decision is
> redundancy and reliability for my all electric panel, along with my
> analysis of the loads for everything I "want" on the e-bus. My load
> analysis shows a continuous load of 12 amps with a maximum load (no
> diversity) of 25 amps. I modified the base Z diagram to accommodate a
> battery that will be mounted in the tail cone.
>
> If you would take a look at my modified Z-13/20 design and comment back
> it would be greatly appreciated.
> Modifications to the base diagram are highlighted in yellow.
> The drawing is in pdf format and you can find it here
> <http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Electic/Elect_R1.pdf>
> or a write up and link can be found here
> <http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Electic/index.html>
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
> Larry Rosen
> RV-10 #356
> http://lrosen.nerv10.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "raymondj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
Mr. Nuckolls,
It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for
students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking
the solutions.
I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time
to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation.
I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available
data as practical at the beginning of the solution process.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Cordially,
Raymond Julian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink
(CORRECTION)
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
> I am disappointed and saddened to see you engaging in the "I've
got a
>secret" style of information dissemination.
>
> If it is in the archive, please say so.
>
> If you have the answer, please give it.
I'm disappointed that you're disappointed. When was the last time
you sat down in a class where the instructor walks in and says, "We
have a test next Friday, the answers are on the board. Class
dismissed." If there is no discussion, then there's no
measure of the exchange and retention of ideas. My first
teaching job was at Great Lakes Naval Training Base
40 years ago. Instructors I worked with habitually taught
to the test questions. I refused to do it then and I'm not
going to start now.
Patience my friend. It's not my intent to be secretive
or obtuse.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au> |
| Subject: | Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review |
Larry,
May I respectfully suggest you connect your starter warning lamp between
the downstream side of the starter contactor and ground. If you ever
see the light on when you are not pressing the starter button, you will
know that the starter contactor has stuck in. IOW, watch the light as
you press the starter button and it should go out immediately the button
is released.
Cheers
Kingsley in Oz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
I have a suggestion for the reasons a manufacturer wants the relay
mounted in a certain orientation, based on experience doing similar
things. It has mostly to do with water: Generally, you want to
mount the part in a way that water has the least chance of getting
inside, so the cap is made like a roof so the water runs off. Also,
you want to have the internals arranged in a way that a drop of water
inside has the least chance of causing a corrosion failure. That
might be to have the electrical connections to the coil at the top -
or the contacts could be at the top if they are more vulnerable.
Reasons like this make far more sense than G-load resistance.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
I guess there are always differing viewpoints Raymond which is often a
good thing.
When I read the answers quickly I am less likely to retain the knowledge
although I guess I can always come back and search the archives which is
perhaps part of your viewpoint.
But when there is some give and take on a question, someone often comes
up with a new idea or two that goes beyond what the "teacher" would have
given and we learn more than we otherwise would. A dynamic classroom is
usually more fun for all.
Ken L.
raymondj wrote:
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
>It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for
>students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking
>the solutions.
>
>I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time
>to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation.
>
>I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available
>data as practical at the beginning of the solution process.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to respond.
>
>Cordially,
>Raymond Julian
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Thoughts on Teaching |
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
>It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for
>students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking
>the solutions.
I disagree. Permit me to elaborate:
I was exceedingly fortunate in my formative years to
have enjoyed the attention of an engineer at Boeing who was also
an amateur radio operator. I knew ALL the hams within about 20 blocks
of my house. Ed was particularly influential in that he never directly
answered a question. He began to ask me questions . . . laying foundations
which supported the answer I was looking for. More often than not, I
would end up answering my own question. The process of mental imaging
and logical assemblage of simple-ideas were powerful teaching tools.
I used those tools only years later when he got me my first teaching
job at Wichita U in an adult education course where a number of my
students were former foremen of mine at Boeing. A few years later,
those tools served me (and my students) well at Great Lakes.
I'll respectfully suggest that the marginally interested student
is ONLY seeking answers. Charles Kettering once noted: "Knowledge
is not understanding. One may know a great deal and yet understand
nothing." It's the INTENTLY interested individual that ENJOYS and
will take the time to ponder the underlying support for a concept
so that understanding is achieved.
>I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time
>to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation.
One may be motivated to do many things and on many levels.
The hallmark of achievement at anything is never a turn-key
process. Tiger Woods probably hits balls every day. Yehudi Menuhin
picked up his violin every day. Thomas Edison's thinking was
probably NEVER silent on the task of pondering some new
problem. If there are other ways to achieve understanding,
I don't know what they are. However, if I can make it fun too,
THEN there is hope for gathering the marginally interested
student into the conversation as well. Therefore I (and those
who would take time to participate here on the List) are
stuck with the best I know how to do today. It's never easy
but if it isn't fun too, then folks are free to take their
business elsewhere.
>I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available
>data as practical at the beginning of the solution process.
>Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I understand but as I wrote earlier I am disappointed that
you are disappointed. Please understand that if my
motivation were to simply be a disseminator of esoteric
knowledge, then I am in danger of being replaced by
Ask.com and Google. If I am to honor those to took the
time to share with me in years past, then it's my duty
to understand the value of what they gave me and to pass
my inheritance forward.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
| From: | "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> |
Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin extraction and
insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng PMA7000 audio panels and
where I can get them??
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65705#65705
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RBM/Stancor/White-Rogers Contactors |
>
>I have a suggestion for the reasons a manufacturer wants the relay
>mounted in a certain orientation, based on experience doing similar
>things. It has mostly to do with water: Generally, you want to
>mount the part in a way that water has the least chance of getting
>inside, so the cap is made like a roof so the water runs off.
In this case, the mfgr has suggested "cap down" . . . but
yes, water may have been a driving consideration.
> Also,
>you want to have the internals arranged in a way that a drop of water
>inside has the least chance of causing a corrosion failure. That
>might be to have the electrical connections to the coil at the top -
>or the contacts could be at the top if they are more vulnerable.
>Reasons like this make far more sense than G-load resistance.
Sure. Of course, the guys who designed this thing have been
dead for decades. The guys who wrote/modified the data
sheets over the years are not accessible to us. So the best
we can do is apply whatever understanding we can to the
question.
I've encountered several failure modes on sophisticated
products where the present powers-that-be go to great
lengths to obfuscate reality. Unlike engineers who are
interested in exercising and improving on the best-we-know-
how-to-do, others will exert no small effort to avoid
confessing to less-than-the-best. It's a lawyer thing.
It may be that the orientation suggestion on the data
sheet was added after years of field experience where
water became a consideration. That might have been
during the era of floating cowl issues on Cessnas
back in the 70's . . . but I doubt it. For every airplane
that carries an RBM/Stancor/White-Rogers contactor,
there's hundreds of boats, fork lifts, etc. that use
them too. Bottom line is that we'll never know the
original thinking or intent.
The alternative is due diligence for reverse
engineering. Disassemble a design looking for the
simple-ideas that both support a hypothesis or
explain a failure. In any case, if the task is done
well, it's not uncommon for the consumer of a legacy
product to end up knowing more about that product than the
manufacturer! That happens all too often in aviation
(and I suspect elsewhere).
To recap I think we can agree that
(1) cap-down orientation improves probability of
survival for cool splash ingestion of water (water
pools away from vitals). Hmmmm . . . wonder about
adding a drain hole in a down-facing cap!
(2) cap-down increases gravity aided, contact spreading
velocity for an improvement of contact service life.
Any other thoughts out there?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
>
>Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin
>extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng
>PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them??
Do the connectors have any numbers or brand names on
them? It's seldom possible to identify tools specific
to connectors based on the brand of product that uses
the connector. If you can see any identifying clues as
to the manufacturer of the connector, then we can access catalogs
for those devices and identify descriptions and sources
for the tools.
If you have a digital camera, take some closeups of
the connector body and email them to me. Perhaps I can
identify the connector by seeing its design.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Thinking things electic |
Raymond,
I recently heard an interesting saying. It goes like this...
5% of the people think.
10% of the people think they think.
and 85% of the people would rather DIE than think.
When I graduated from medical school my head was crammed full of "answers".
I could spout facts like nobody's business. Then I met the public and
realized I didn't know how to "doctor" people. In other words, I didn't know
how to think like a doctor!
This revelation came early in my career in a busy ER in Knoxville,
Tennessee. I had a patient with a sore throat and I didn't know how to treat
it, or even where to go to find out. Shocking, isn't it? I was already an
MD. In fact, I already knew how to treat heart attack, stroke and many
serious and life threatening conditions. But I didn't know how to evaluate
that sore throat! I was taken aback, as you might guess.
Fortunately, I had a teacher supervising me who was ready to fill the gaps
in my knowledge. And, even more fortunately, I learned from him how to
evaluate patients, or more correctly, their problems. At first, I was miffed
at him because when I asked him how to treat this patient, he handed me an
article to read! I was busy! The ER was jumping and this "minor" problem was
bogging me down. But, since I wasn't the only MD on duty, and I was in
training after all, I sat down and quickly read the article. After I was
done, I knew what to do. But, most curious of all, I had been exposed to the
thought processes of the author and it transformed my thinking! I have
continually worked to hone my skills as a medical thinker for the past 25
years. But that teacher was the beginning of my real medical education.
Likewise, Bob Nuckolls has been the beginning of my electrical education. He
makes it fun and rewarding. I like it so much I've read the 'Connection at
least a half dozen times. I read this list every day. I've come to LIKE
wiring airplanes! When I tell my OBAM airplane buddies, they just shake
their heads in disbelief. One even asked if I would wire his! :o) You see,
they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They don't want to
have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to fly them!
And, who's to blame them for that? That's why most of us build the dern
things, isn't it? They are content to wire theirs according to the suggested
diagrams supplied with the kit. Why not? It works, doesn't it?
But we AeroElectric listers are the chosen few. Either by education or
avocation we find ourselves thinking things electric. Sure, we want answers,
but, even better, we want our fancies tickled! That's what Bob is doing
here. We like it! We'll have the "answer" soon enough. But I'd like to know
if my manner of thinking works! After all, I may be up there screaming along
in my Sky Scorcher someday when things go awry and I'm gonna be all I've got
to get things managable! I want the confidence to get that done. And Bob's
method of teaching fills that need for me. At least concerning things
electric.
Rodney in Tennessee
Unabashed Nuckollhead
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connectors vs. Straight Wire |
>Hi Stein,
>
>Thanks so much for your very thoughtful reply to my question about the
>trade-offs between straight-wiring my instrument panel to the airframe
>wiring and the alternative of putting connectors in every wire so that I
>can remove the panel for service.
>
>I think I'll take your advice and go with the straight-wire concept,
>without connectors in every wire. The airplane I'm building has better
>than average access to the panel in-place and most of the stuff in the
>panel are relatively easy to remove.
From a servicing perspective, consider making your
panel from "modules" of flat sheet, each removable
for servicing. Make wire bundles to each module
long enough to allow pulling the module out for access
while extending a bundle. When mounted for operation,
coil the bundles behind the panel and secure with
tye-wraps. If your bundles are not too populace, this
is a good way to maintain both serviceability =AND
wire integrity.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Hi Hugo
The steinair website may help you.
http://steinair.com/connectors.htm
I believe that any connector that fits RG-58 will fit RG400 and I used a
$20. imported crimper that worked fine for me.
Ken L.
gommone7(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>Hi all,still with antennas questions,
>almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i ordered,now the
choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted choice of BNC connectors (only
one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't be solder,ok order allready the 70
dol crimping tool.but still one part missing wich is a metal sleeve wich slide
over the conection and allow to be crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats
sleeve,can some one help me to understand or a place to order the part.
>thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems
>Hugo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Redmon" <james(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
Without knowing exactly what kind of socket/pin combination you have, it's
impossible to know for sure. However, I but it uses the same card-edge
Molex KK pins/connectors that most other King radio equipment uses.
If so, this will help you out:
http://www.berkut13.com/extractor.htm
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000
>
> Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin
> extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng
> PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them??
>
> --------
> Milt
> N395V
> F1 Rocket
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
Ken is correct. Dimensionally, RG-58 and RG400 are close enough
to use the same connectors and application tools. The only 'catch'
is to get your 'cheap' tool and connectors from the same supplier . . .
presumably, like me, they'll make sure that their connectors are
compatible with their tools. It's a rare problem but NOT zero risk.
Alternatively, one can purchase mil-spec connectors and tools from
anyone with a high expectation for mix-n-match between tools and
connectors.
Bob . . .
>
>Hi Hugo
>
>The steinair website may help you.
>http://steinair.com/connectors.htm
>I believe that any connector that fits RG-58 will fit RG400 and I used a
>$20. imported crimper that worked fine for me.
>
>Ken L.
>
>gommone7(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>>
>>Hi all,still with antennas questions,
>>almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i ordered,now
>>the choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted choice of BNC
>>connectors (only one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't be solder,ok
>>order allready the 70 dol crimping tool.but still one part missing wich
>>is a metal sleeve wich slide over the conection and allow to be
>>crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats sleeve,can some one help me to
>>understand or a place to order the part.
>>thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems
>>Hugo
>>
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thinking things electic |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> You see,
> they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They don't want to
> have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to fly them!
> And, who's to blame them for that?
Let's look at that a different way. First a backgrounder...
My Dad taught me to fly. He was a CFII and and A&P w/ IA. I
learned to fly and learned systems and the why and how of those
systems and could work on them, too. On the other hand, I'm
neither of the above.
Those folks who just want to "fly" aren't, I believe, being properly
grounded in systems theory, either mechanical/electro-
mechanical/electrical. Those with a passion for learning beyond
"flying" make better pilots in my estimation. I'm marginal when it
comes to pure electrical but can generally get the information I
need to act on some issue. I have a better handle on
mechanical/electro-mechanical. Am I a whiz? Nope. Not even
close...just persistent and methodical.
Not thinking will get you in world of hurt. Don't question
conventional wisdom and you'll have to accept the
consequences.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Radioshack also has one for 11 bucks
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10
Hi Hugo
The steinair website may help you.
http://steinair.com/connectors.htm
I believe that any connector that fits RG-58 will fit RG400 and I used a
$20. imported crimper that worked fine for me.
Ken L.
gommone7(at)bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>Hi all,still with antennas questions,
>almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i
ordered,now the choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted
choice of BNC connectors (only one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't
be solder,ok order allready the 70 dol crimping tool.but still one part
missing wich is a metal sleeve wich slide over the conection and allow
to be crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats sleeve,can some one help
me to understand or a place to order the part.
>thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems Hugo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thinking things electic |
I am finding it more and more difficult to remember things by
rote. I do much better when someone tells me WHY something is a
certain way, because then I can derive the answer over and over
again, if I should forget the actual answer.
For instance, I forget the final approach speed I'm supposed to use
in a C-172. But if I know that you can derive that number from 1.3
times the stall speed, then I can compute it for any airplane, not
just the C-172.
Sometimes there are other factors that have to be considered in an
answer. For example, my instructor tells me that the final approach
speed for my Mooney should be 80mph. Nail that 80mph and I've got a
great shot and a great landing.
But 80mph I can get in a thousand different ways. One of them has
the nose pointed way up into the sky and full power. That's
80mph. One has the nose exactly at the horizon, and less
power. Should I be using either of those "80" attitudes when setting
up for landing? No. Neither should I be using the "all power off"
80, because it turns out, that, too is 80, but the sink rate is way
too high. So, my instructor tells me the other factors that go into
the 80 I should have. I should have about 400fpm sink rate, then
adjust manifold pressure to get 80. And he explains all about the
amount of angular change to round out the flare with a 400fpm sink
rate versus a 600fpm sink rate, etc. etc. He asks me, when there is
a 20mph headwind, does that change your rate of climb or your angle
of climb? Does it change your angle of descent? So what should you
do when landing into a strong headwind?
If he just said "remember the answer is 80", that would not teach me
what I really need to know to handle all situations that I'm going to
encounter.
An interesting thing I learned by seeing the inside of the contactor
was the spring. Now, admittedly that spring is hardly stressed, and
will probably never break, but if the contactor is mounted
upside-down, then voila, the spring is not needed because gravity
will do the same job. So there's another, albeit tiny, data point.
(I will admit that I've been cursed with "but why" ever since I was a kid.)
Dave Morris
At 11:18 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>
> > You see,
> > they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They
> don't want to
> > have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to
> fly them!
> > And, who's to blame them for that?
>
>Let's look at that a different way. First a backgrounder...
>
>My Dad taught me to fly. He was a CFII and and A&P w/ IA. I
>learned to fly and learned systems and the why and how of those
>systems and could work on them, too. On the other hand, I'm
>neither of the above.
>
>Those folks who just want to "fly" aren't, I believe, being properly
>grounded in systems theory, either mechanical/electro-
>mechanical/electrical. Those with a passion for learning beyond
>"flying" make better pilots in my estimation. I'm marginal when it
>comes to pure electrical but can generally get the information I
>need to act on some issue. I have a better handle on
>mechanical/electro-mechanical. Am I a whiz? Nope. Not even
>close...just persistent and methodical.
>
>Not thinking will get you in world of hurt. Don't question
>conventional wisdom and you'll have to accept the
>consequences.
>
>
>Jim Baker
>580.788.2779
>Elmore City, OK
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Thanka at all.
hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Thanka at all.
hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Coax Crimp tools |
>
>
>Radioshack also has one for 11 bucks
>
>Frank
I think the 'low cost' coax tool at RS is for television
"F" connectors. They also list a tool with hex dies and
a "small" hole for about $18.00
See http://tinyurl.com/jbn46
For MOST of the RG-58/RG-400 connectors out there you
need a reasonably accurate .213" hex die (shield sleeve)
and a .068" square or hex die (center pin). I've
encountered tools that were properly marked but in
fact were slightly over or under-sized and didn't
produce the desired crimp.
You can take a pair of calipers with you to the store
http://tinyurl.com/8b18 and check the tool before you
buy it. Go for .213" minus .000" plus .001" and
.068" plus/minus .001"
These tools are made and offered by dozens of folks
from all walks of technology and while most are pretty
good, you don't want to find one that's not so good
AFTER you've bought the tool and are needing to FINISH
the job.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Coax Crimp tools |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Good point. The Radioshack deal is in fact listed for RG58 and appeared
to work very well.
FWIW
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Coax Crimp tools
-->
(Corvallis)"
>
>
>Radioshack also has one for 11 bucks
>
>Frank
I think the 'low cost' coax tool at RS is for television
"F" connectors. They also list a tool with hex dies and
a "small" hole for about $18.00
See http://tinyurl.com/jbn46
For MOST of the RG-58/RG-400 connectors out there you
need a reasonably accurate .213" hex die (shield sleeve)
and a .068" square or hex die (center pin). I've
encountered tools that were properly marked but in
fact were slightly over or under-sized and didn't
produce the desired crimp.
You can take a pair of calipers with you to the store
http://tinyurl.com/8b18 and check the tool before you
buy it. Go for .213" minus .000" plus .001" and
.068" plus/minus .001"
These tools are made and offered by dozens of folks
from all walks of technology and while most are pretty
good, you don't want to find one that's not so good
AFTER you've bought the tool and are needing to FINISH
the job.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
They are standard molex/narco/king/pse square molex type pins. Instead of
spending $40-60 on the "official" pin tool...do the following
Flatten the end of a piece of .040" safety wire...works great.
Use a "bobby pin"
Use a flattened paper clip
or - what we use in my shop. Take an old piece of a hacksaw blade, take it
to be belt sander and sand a nice small flat "finger" into the end of it
about .040" wide. Works great and rarely breaks, and doesn't cost anything!
Any of the above solutions will work great.
Cheers,
Stein.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:42 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin
>>extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng
>>PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them??
>
> Do the connectors have any numbers or brand names on
> them? It's seldom possible to identify tools specific
> to connectors based on the brand of product that uses
> the connector. If you can see any identifying clues as
> to the manufacturer of the connector, then we can access catalogs
> for those devices and identify descriptions and sources
> for the tools.
>
> If you have a digital camera, take some closeups of
> the connector body and email them to me. Perhaps I can
> identify the connector by seeing its design.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Bob said:
> Plunger position or even the presence of a plunger
> does not influence static coil current.
Oops...Yes you are right...
Re: Fuller Quote--
At least I have refrained from using as a signature:
"Concepts of space and time are certainly doomed." Dr. Edward Witten
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65797#65797
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
| From: | "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> |
I'd like to take this opportunity to put in a plug for Steinair.
Throughout my project he and all of his employees have been immensly helpful in
answering questions, giving advice, expediting parts, and finding sources in
order to help me complete my panel. I am sure they consumed many valuable hours
out of their busy schedules to help.
This is one top notch group of people.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65813#65813
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger Venables" <roger(at)nwtradingpost.com> |
Jeff
I recently attended the EAA electrical workshop and asked the same question
(different plane!)
The answer I got was that the shielding should be bridged, that is solder
tags to the shielding on either side and connect through the molex plug
Hope this is helpful
Roger Venables
Zenith 701
Kenmore, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Moreau
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Wiring
I am installing Whelen wingtip strobes on my RV8. I have installed a molex
multi-pin plug at the wing root in the event that I ever have to remove the
wings.
Does anyone feel that this is inviting a problem with electrial "noise" in
my system. I know that this is a shielded cable. I am a novice and would
welcome any comments or suggestions.
Jeff
--------
Jeff Moreau
RV8A
Virginia Beach, VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65535#65535
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Thanks again for the answer,but personaly never purchase cheap tools,use few times
but allways do perfect job.
Now my next question.
ELT antenna,in a 180knots airplane I thinks a flexible spring antenna will be out
of question ,I belive can't be mount inside an a aluminum plane,I found a spot
under the vertical stabilizer ,the 10 use a thin fiberglass fairing,what you
guys thinks will work?,.eventualy need to work only one time,in a shallow accidents
probably don't needed but in a bad one ,the the antenna will be pointing
up and almost at the highest point,(sorry for the humor)
here the pictures ,
thanks again ,Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
>
>They are standard molex/narco/king/pse square molex type pins. Instead of
>spending $40-60 on the "official" pin tool...do the following
>
>Flatten the end of a piece of .040" safety wire...works great.
>Use a "bobby pin"
>Use a flattened paper clip
>
>or - what we use in my shop. Take an old piece of a hacksaw blade, take it
>to be belt sander and sand a nice small flat "finger" into the end of it
>about .040" wide. Works great and rarely breaks, and doesn't cost anything!
>
>Any of the above solutions will work great.
Aha! THAT kind of tool. I've got a bunch of them, none
are purchased. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/extraction_tool.jpg
. . . any dimestore pocket screwdriver can be dressed
down with your sander, grinder, etc to provide the proper
tab dimensions for unlocking this style of pin.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 |
>
>I'd like to take this opportunity to put in a plug for Steinair.
>
>Throughout my project he and all of his employees have been immensly
>helpful in answering questions, giving advice, expediting parts, and
>finding sources in order to help me complete my panel. I am sure they
>consumed many valuable hours out of their busy schedules to help.
>
>This is one top notch group of people.
Stein (like a number of folks I know) operates
under what I call the Olive Ann Beech philosophy of business:
"Take care of the customer and the bottom line will
take care of itself." Not only that, all the time
you MIGHT have spent trying to craft, implement and track
a "plan" is spent having fun solving problems and making
things work. The best blood pressure medicine I know
of . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Slaughter" <willslau(at)alumni.rice.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) |
Raymond,
Have you considered buying the Aeroelectric Connection book? It's got lots
of info right there for the reading.
William Slaughter
RV-8
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:43 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION)
-->
Mr. Nuckolls,
It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for
students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking
the solutions.
I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time
to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation.
I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available
data as practical at the beginning of the solution process.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Cordially,
Raymond Julian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink
(CORRECTION)
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
> I am disappointed and saddened to see you engaging in the
> "I've
got a
>secret" style of information dissemination.
>
> If it is in the archive, please say so.
>
> If you have the answer, please give it.
I'm disappointed that you're disappointed. When was the last time
you sat down in a class where the instructor walks in and says, "We
have a test next Friday, the answers are on the board. Class
dismissed." If there is no discussion, then there's no
measure of the exchange and retention of ideas. My first
teaching job was at Great Lakes Naval Training Base
40 years ago. Instructors I worked with habitually taught
to the test questions. I refused to do it then and I'm not
going to start now.
Patience my friend. It's not my intent to be secretive
or obtuse.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Master contactor doesn't work anymore? |
I have a friend who needs help. (We'll call him "Sparky")
"Sparky" was just about to leave the airport for the evening but had one last thing
to do in the control tunnel in his F1 Rocket.. The BNC connector to the
comm antenna was disconnected at the time and it accidently flopped down onto
the master contactor and hit one of the two smaller poles resulting in a spark.
(The large poles had rubber boots insulating them, but unfortunately no boots on
the smaller poles)
When "Sparky" went to turn on the master switch ( a Cessna style split master switch)
the master contactor no longer functioned.
"Sparky" left the airport in disgust so as not to be late for dinner, but now he
needs to know how to proceed tomorrow with trouble shooting to get the master
contactor to function again.
Will "Sparky" need to replace the master contactor? Or, will he have to replace
the Cessna style split master switch? Or, has the 22AWG wire between the contactor
and master switch acted like a fuseable link and need to be replaced?
How can I...I mean "Sparky," do some diagnostics before resorting to "swaptronics"
of components???
HELP!
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? |
>
>I have a friend who needs help. (We'll call him "Sparky")
>
>"Sparky" was just about to leave the airport for the evening but had one
>last thing to do in the control tunnel in his F1 Rocket.. The BNC
>connector to the comm antenna was disconnected at the time and it
>accidently flopped down onto the master contactor and hit one of the two
>smaller poles resulting in a spark.
>
>(The large poles had rubber boots insulating them, but unfortunately no
>boots on the smaller poles)
>
>When "Sparky" went to turn on the master switch ( a Cessna style split
>master switch) the master contactor no longer functioned.
>
>"Sparky" left the airport in disgust so as not to be late for dinner, but
>now he needs to know how to proceed tomorrow with trouble shooting to get
>the master contactor to function again.
>
>Will "Sparky" need to replace the master contactor? Or, will he have to
>replace the Cessna style split master switch? Or, has the 22AWG wire
>between the contactor and master switch acted like a fuseable link and
>need to be replaced?
>
>How can I...I mean "Sparky," do some diagnostics before resorting to
>"swaptronics" of components???
>
>HELP!
This is a job for Mr. Cliplead. He's been known
to come in a variety of colors and lengths. I've
got several dozen of his uncles and cousins hanging
in my shop. If you have only one, recommend about
three feet long and fitted with alligator clips
(insulated if you want to get fancy).
Start with using the cliplead to ground the master
contactor terminal that goes off to the master switch.
This should energize the master contactor with the
usual "thunk". If so, then the problem lies with
wiring and/or switch. If not, then a closer look at
the contactor is in order. Is it a 3-terminal contactor?
If so, then "tunkless" probably means contactor replacement.
If a 4-terminal, check to see if the jumper between
BAT terminal and the OTHER small terminal burned. Seems
possible given the grounding nature of a free-lance
coax connector.
If the contactor "thunks", then check out wiring by
applying Mr. Clippy between airfram ground and the
contactor side of the battery master switch. "Thunk"?
switch or ground wire on other side of switch is bad.
No "thunk"? Wire between switch and contactor is open.
Bob . . .
>Paul Siegel
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Knurl driver.... |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as
were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have
one..these things are rare.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
I am assembling my radio stack.
The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
I only have metal.
Regards
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Rack Screws |
Chris
Most Stainless Steel alloys are not magnetic either, so that could
also be used. Take a magnet with you to the vendor. Check a sample
of a SS screw to make sure it's not magnetic, before you buy it. I
also used Stainless Steel nutplates on my panel for that reason.
Charlie Kuss
>
>
>I am assembling my radio stack.
>The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
>Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
>I only have metal.
>
>
>Regards
>Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
H i Charlie,
I was just going to contact you when I saw this e-mail. I send you a
money order for the replacement o-rings for the brake system of my RV7
about 5 weeks ago but have not received the rings. I am wondering if you
received the money.
Please let me know
Thanks
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
Chris
Most Stainless Steel alloys are not magnetic either, so that could also
be used. Take a magnet with you to the vendor. Check a sample of a SS
screw to make sure it's not magnetic, before you buy it. I also used
Stainless Steel nutplates on my panel for that reason.
Charlie Kuss
I am assembling my radio stack.
The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
I only have metal.
Regards
Chris
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Verwey " <bonanza(at)vodamail.co.za> |
| Subject: | Stop the Nuckolls bashing |
Please guys, I fear the alienation of 'the' Bob is drawing inexorably nearer. Take
it off list if you have an
ongoing issue.
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Morgan <wmorgan31(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 10/04/06 |
I got mine from lane pilot store on ebay stores
scott
At 01:55 AM 10/5/2006, you wrote:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000
>From: "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net>
>
>
>Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin
>extraction and
>insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng PMA7000 audio panels and
>where I can get them??
>
>--------
>Milt
>N395V
>F1 Rocket
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <n7155a(at)cox.net> |
I'm looking for other things to check before I dis-assemble the radio rack.
I have a older narco cessna replacement radio with a bad display. Discussed with
the radio shop and bought a new Michel TKM MX300 to replace the radio.
The new MX300 doesn't want to slide in the last 1/8 or 1/16 of an inch. All the
contacts seem to be making up except the com antenna.
- Vor works fine - both Nav and HIWAS.
- I can get some hiss with the Squelch test button but no AWOS.
MX300 Radio works fine in another airplane.
Different MX300 has the same problem in this airplane.
Checked antenna connections. old Narco works fine, as well as an old RT328.
Unless you all have a suggestion, me and A&P are going to pull the tray and try
to find why the radio doesn't make up the Com antenna connection.
Nothing obviuos in tray or back of radio.
Mitch Williams
Chickasha Wings Inc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Knurl driver.... |
>
>Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as
>were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have
>one..these things are rare.
I haven't seen those listed in the catalogs for years.
I used to have one but don't even recall the last time
used or even saw it. I'll ask around.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "raymondj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Thoughts on Teaching |
Mr. Nuckolls,
Reasonable people may disagree. Thank you again for your thoughtful
replies. I don't believe the cause of herding electrons will be further
served by any additional input from me on this topic.
Cordially,
Raymond Julian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Thoughts on Teaching
>
>Mr. Nuckolls,
>
>It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for
>students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking
>the solutions.
I disagree. Permit me to elaborate:
I was exceedingly fortunate in my formative years to
have enjoyed the attention of an engineer at Boeing who was also
an amateur radio operator. I knew ALL the hams within about 20 blocks
of my house. Ed was particularly influential in that he never directly
answered a question. He began to ask me questions . . . laying
foundations
which supported the answer I was looking for. More often than not, I
would end up answering my own question. The process of mental imaging
and logical assemblage of simple-ideas were powerful teaching tools.
I used those tools only years later when he got me my first teaching
job at Wichita U in an adult education course where a number of my
students were former foremen of mine at Boeing. A few years later,
those tools served me (and my students) well at Great Lakes.
I'll respectfully suggest that the marginally interested student
is ONLY seeking answers. Charles Kettering once noted: "Knowledge
is not understanding. One may know a great deal and yet understand
nothing." It's the INTENTLY interested individual that ENJOYS and
will take the time to ponder the underlying support for a concept
so that understanding is achieved.
>I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the
time
>to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation.
One may be motivated to do many things and on many levels.
The hallmark of achievement at anything is never a turn-key
process. Tiger Woods probably hits balls every day. Yehudi Menuhin
picked up his violin every day. Thomas Edison's thinking was
probably NEVER silent on the task of pondering some new
problem. If there are other ways to achieve understanding,
I don't know what they are. However, if I can make it fun too,
THEN there is hope for gathering the marginally interested
student into the conversation as well. Therefore I (and those
who would take time to participate here on the List) are
stuck with the best I know how to do today. It's never easy
but if it isn't fun too, then folks are free to take their
business elsewhere.
>I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available
>data as practical at the beginning of the solution process.
>Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I understand but as I wrote earlier I am disappointed that
you are disappointed. Please understand that if my
motivation were to simply be a disseminator of esoteric
knowledge, then I am in danger of being replaced by
Ask.com and Google. If I am to honor those to took the
time to share with me in years past, then it's my duty
to understand the value of what they gave me and to pass
my inheritance forward.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim S <gjs55(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Knurled nut driver |
>
>Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as
>were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have
>one..these things are rare.
Hey Rev - is this what you're looking for?
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Tools:_Toggle_switch_wrench.html
Jim Sinke
N93634
KLZU
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Coax Crimp tools |
In a message dated 10/4/06 1:46:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:
> I think the 'low cost' coax tool at RS is for television
> "F" connectors. They also list a tool with hex dies and
> a "small" hole for about $18.00
>
> See http://tinyurl.com/jbn46
>
> For MOST of the RG-58/RG-400 connectors out there you
> need a reasonably accurate .213" hex die (shield sleeve)
> and a .068" square or hex die (center pin). I've
> encountered tools that were properly marked but in
> fact were slightly over or under-sized and didn't
> produce the desired crimp.
>
> You can take a pair of calipers with you to the store
> http://tinyurl.com/8b18 and check the tool before you
> buy it. Go for .213" minus .000" plus .001" and
> .068" plus/minus .001"
>
> These tools are made and offered by dozens of folks
> from all walks of technology and while most are pretty
> good, you don't want to find one that's not so good
> AFTER you've bought the tool and are needing to FINISH
> the job.
>
> Bob . . .
====================
Listen to what Bob says!
Or you can simply use the soldering pencil you already have.
And the wrench already in your tool box.
And not have to worry or bring a caliper to the store.
And not have to drive to the store.
And save the gas for the plane.
AND learn the simple task of how to make a moisture protected wrench and
solder BNC.
Guad, I love being old school. I don't have to learn new ways to do old
thing and reinvent the wheel.
Kisses Bob
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Knurled nut driver |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> >Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as
> >were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have
> >one..these things are rare.
>
> Hey Rev - is this what you're looking for?
>
> http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Tools:_Toggle_switch_wrench.html
I'd seen this one listed and thought it might be a candidate.
Thanks for the heads-up. The one I'd seen before looked like a
split, tapered tube with a threaded ferrule to squeeze the tube
around the nut. I may end up having to get busy on the lathe and
make one. I'd have to figure out how to knurl the ID of the end,
tho....hmmmmm. Take apart a steel knurling tool wheel and use
a hyd. press? Maybe.
Thanks, all.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank(at)core.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Knurl driver.... |
Jim,
Not to be an additional bearer of bad tidings but several years ago I
needed several of those knurled rings that go on the circuit breakers. I
checked the internet and went to the nut and local nut and bolt
companies in town. Nobody could match it. I finally contacted the
company that made the breaker and talked to someone who had a few lying
around that he could give me. Hope you have better luck
Tim Shankland
Jim Baker wrote:
>
>Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as
>were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have
>one..these things are rare.
>
>Jim Baker
>580.788.2779
>Elmore City, OK
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
Where does one buy stainless nutplates?
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
Kuss
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
Chris
Most Stainless Steel alloys are not magnetic either, so that could also be
used. Take a magnet with you to the vendor. Check a sample of a SS screw to
make sure it's not magnetic, before you buy it. I also used Stainless Steel
nutplates on my panel for that reason.
Charlie Kuss
I am assembling my radio stack.
The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
I only have metal.
Regards
Chris
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
Bevan,
The first step is to know the part number for the SS parts. This is
actually rather simple. You simply add one to the last digit of the
more common MS part number (The K1000 numbers used by Vans Aircraft
are actually part of an obsolete numbering system). As an example, a
common nutplate (old system calls them K1000) is the MS21047-xxx (x
denoting the screw hole size). The SS version of this nutplate would
be MS21048-xxx.
I purchased my SS nutplates from M&M Aerospace Hardware. M&M has 5
locations around the country. They are geared towards selling to
aviation professionals, but will sell to individuals. Early last year
I made a "group purchase" of these SS nutplates for people on the
Yahoo RV8 List. I did this because M&M offers pricing discounts when
hardware is ordered in lots of 100. The discount is very significant.
M&M's web site is below.
http://www.mmaero.com/us/index.cfm
M&M carries all the "hard to find" stuff that other vendors don't have.
Charlie
>Where does one buy stainless nutplates?
>
>Bevan
>
>
>----------
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:13 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
>
>Chris
> Most Stainless Steel alloys are not magnetic either, so that could
> also be used. Take a magnet with you to the vendor. Check a sample
> of a SS screw to make sure it's not magnetic, before you buy it. I
> also used Stainless Steel nutplates on my panel for that reason.
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
>>
>>
>>I am assembling my radio stack.
>>The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
>>Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
>>I only have metal.
>>
>>
>>Regards
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>>http://forums.matronics.com
>>- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>>http://wiki.matronics.com
>>- List Contribution Web Site -
>>-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>href="http://wiki.matronics.com">http://wiki.matronics.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Morgan <wmorgan31(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 10/04/06 |
from the gc / waldom catalog
http://www.gcwaldom.com/catalog.html
Knurl-Nut Wrenches
Tightens or loosens knurled finish nuts.
Collet-type pressure jaws provide positive vise-like grip.
Reverse quarter turn loosens jaws and drops nut.
1/16" adjustment takes finish nuts of slightly less or greater size.
Hollow collet barrel fits the long shank of many toggle switches.
Cat. No. 00-9358-0000
N.S.N. 5120-00-88-4009 5/8" dia. Nut
Cat. No. 00-9359-0000
Scott @ william morgan warbirds (not my email addr)
At 01:55 AM 10/5/2006, you wrote:
>From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Knurl driver....
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
>
>
>Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as
>were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have
>one..these things are rare.
>
>Jim Baker
>580.788.2779
>Elmore City, OK
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave <dave(at)abrahamson.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stop the Nuckolls bashing |
Judging from Bob's patient answers to innumerable queries, from the
didn't-read-the-F-manual to from-one-EE-to-another-EE types, I don't
believe he will be alienated anytime soon. Many years of teaching
have apparently taught him that in any audience there are people for
whom the phrasing of a question is exhaustion enough, leaving them
only with the threshold consciousness needed to scribble down the
answer. I've gotten that plaintive "Dude!, I asked you for the time,
not how to build a clock!" reaction, usually from those taking a
course because it's required, not because they are interested in the
subject. As a guy who can only understand amps and volts in terms of
water spurting from a garden hose - and I have to be looking at one
to get a clear picture, I am more likely than most on this list to
reach for the inhaler if an answer to a question leaves me with
another question. But, hey, I figure I'm learning, so I reach for
the 'Connection, call Stein, reread installation instructions, search
the archives, kick the cat, or have another beer, and try to work it
out for myself. Keep teaching, Bob, and set up a fee schedule for
those who want one-line answers.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 10/04/06 |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
>
> http://www.gcwaldom.com/catalog.html
>
> Knurl-Nut Wrenches
Whoo, hooo! Bless you, William! Just the item I was looking for.
Guess the lathe will have to wait.
Thanks!
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Switching between comm feeds |
Like most Long's/Cozy's, I built a comm antenna into each winglet.
I ran coax's from both winglets to the panel. I'd like to install a
switch so I can switch between antenna's.
There's such a switch behind my TV that the kids use to switch
between DVD or cable feed. It's a flaky Radio Shack thing, but it
works (if you fiddle with it).
Is there a higher-end version that I can install behind the panel for
switching between antennas?
Many thanks
Neil
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 10/04/06 |
Great info, but does anyone actually carry them? I couldn't find a
distributor that even recognizes that they still exist...
Dick Tasker
William Morgan wrote:
>
>
> from the gc / waldom catalog
>
> http://www.gcwaldom.com/catalog.html
>
> Knurl-Nut Wrenches
> Tightens or loosens knurled finish nuts.
> Collet-type pressure jaws provide positive vise-like grip.
> Reverse quarter turn loosens jaws and drops nut.
> 1/16" adjustment takes finish nuts of slightly less or greater size.
> Hollow collet barrel fits the long shank of many toggle switches.
> Cat. No. 00-9358-0000
> N.S.N. 5120-00-88-4009 5/8" dia. Nut
> Cat. No. 00-9359-0000
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? |
In a message dated 10/4/2006 10:48:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
psiegel(at)fuse.net writes:
Will "Sparky" need to replace the master contactor? Or, will he have to
replace the Cessna style split master switch? Or, has the 22AWG wire between the
contactor and master switch acted like a fuseable link and need to be
replaced?
How can I...I mean "Sparky," do some diagnostics before resorting to
"swaptronics" of components???
HELP!
Paul Siegel
==================================
Hi Paul:
Tell Sparky I HATE 'swaptronics" even more than "swapmechanics".
The first thing Sparky has to do is pull out the schematic for the bird. The
second quick fix is to check ALL fuses and circuit breakers. Usually in the
wiring of Master relays there is a fuse in the B+ control lead of the coil.
Turning on is done by either completing the ground of the coil or the B+.
>From your explanation it seems like the Ground is what is being used to
complete the circuit and the Ground of the coax hit the B+ side of the relay ...
Results POP of the 'hopefully' installed fuse.
Use the schematic and trace the circuit to find the fuse. Or trace the wire
from the relay.
If you want to do a meter test, check resistance from each control stud
(small terminals) to Ground.
Also go back to the Master Switch and check for Voltage.
Hope this helps, but! Tell Sparky to do this BEFORE he has any Beers.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Dodson <r_dodson(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stop the Nuckolls bashing |
Two semesters of EE as an undergrad....
Three quarters of Communications Engineering in grad school....
Still nothing beats:
Bob's experience, wisdom, and his book with free updates!
- Rich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | new to this list |
Hello,
I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about to begin
the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself overwhelmed with
the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know where to jump in
or begin.
I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear instructions
for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a little vague) but
not for electric installation.
Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
Mike Ice
Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | new to this list |
Mike,
Van's does sell a wiring harness for your RV-9. I bought one for my RV-8A
but didn't use it because I had so many things I wanted to do another way.
But, it did come with "put this here and use this wire to connect it to
that" instructions. You might want to get just the instructions for the
wiring kit for the RV-9 to review.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
Seattle
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
T. Ice
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:58 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list
Hello,
I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about to
begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself
overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know
where to jump in or begin.
I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear
instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a
little vague) but not for electric installation.
Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
Mike Ice
Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | new to this list |
Mike
You have the cook book on order...Aeroelectric....
I am there now and am in the learning process. First determine aircraft
mission. Determine budget. Design electrical system to meet aircraft mission
and budget. ASK QUESTIONS after your own research. Check out others
electrical plan. Submit your plan to others for suggestions. Order supplies.
Ask questions through the whole process. Don't get side tracked by the
intellectual joustings. Follow Bob's advice and you will not go wrong.
Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring and other stufffffff....RV7A
>From: "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list
>Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:57:36 -0800
>
>Hello,
>
>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about
>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself
>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know
>where to jump in or begin.
>
>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
>
>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear
>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a
>little vague) but not for electric installation.
>
>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
>
>Mike Ice
>Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | Re: new to this list |
Frank and others,
Thanks for the prompt replies and advice. I will take it to heart and do as
you suggest. Don't worry about me getting caught up in the intellectual
jousting, I am way to busy.
Scottish Proverb:
Be happy while you're living, for you're a long time dead.
Mike Ice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: new to this list
>
>
> Mike
>
> You have the cook book on order...Aeroelectric....
>
> I am there now and am in the learning process. First determine aircraft
> mission. Determine budget. Design electrical system to meet aircraft
> mission and budget. ASK QUESTIONS after your own research. Check out
> others electrical plan. Submit your plan to others for suggestions. Order
> supplies. Ask questions through the whole process. Don't get side tracked
> by the intellectual joustings. Follow Bob's advice and you will not go
> wrong.
>
> Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring and other stufffffff....RV7A
>
>
>>From: "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net>
>>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list
>>Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:57:36 -0800
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about
>>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself
>>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know
>>where to jump in or begin.
>>
>>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
>>
>>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear
>>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a
>>little vague) but not for electric installation.
>>
>>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
>>
>>Mike Ice
>>Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Burned out switch |
I just experience my second switch failure in 100 hours. The first time
is was the master switch (loose switch terminals), this time it was my
Strobe power supply switch.
Symptoms: tripping breaker at shut down, and burned fast-on terminal
insulation at the switch.
An inspection of the switch showed that the terminals were loose and
discolored, indicating high internal temperatures.
Bench testing with a constant current power supply indicated flaky
terminals and overheating.
I would expect the Strobe switch would be more susceptible to failure
due to the constant power characteristics of the strobe power supply.
As switch resistance increases, the current in the circuit would tend to
increase as the strobe power supply tries to keep putting out the same
power. This would quickly lead to thermal runaway in the switch.
For example, if the switch resistance was high enough to cause a 4 volt
drop across the switch, the strobe current would rise from 7 amps
(nominal) to more than 10 amps, tripping my breaker. The switch would
also overheat.
This would also tend to cause a breaker trip at shut-down, because the
voltage would drop from 14 to 12 as the engine stopped, increasing the
strobe power supply draw.
So... lesson learned. It also confirmed my suspicions that the breaker
was tripping for a reason!
Vern Little
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A DeMarzo" <planepubs(at)ev1.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
Very interesting! What can you tell us about the quality of the
switches? I would think the opposite, with the master having more duty.
At least the strobes have a bit of time to cool so maybe less of a
load!
On 10/07/2006 6:16:48 PM, Vern Little (rv-9a-online(at)telus.net) wrote:
<rv-9a-online@telus.
> net>
>
> I just experience my second switch failure in 100 hours. The first
time
> is was the master switch (loose switch terminals), this time it was my
> Strobe power supply switch.
>
> Symptoms: tripping breaker at shut down, and burned fast-on terminal
> insulation at the switch.
>
> An inspection of the switch showed that the terminals were loose and
> discolored, indicating high internal temperatures.
>
> Bench testing with a constant current power supply indicated flaky
> terminals and overheating.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: new to this list |
One thing you can start doing before you even get "The Book" is to
start making a list of all your electrically operated
equipment. Everything from strobe lights to fuel pumps to electronic
ignition systems, clocks, radios, etc.
Get the manufacturer's specs on each one and write down the "Current"
requirements for each. These will be stated in milliamps or
Amps. For radios, it may give one current requirement for receiving
and a different one for transmitting. Note that this is NOT the
"fuse size" or "breaker size" given. If they only give you the
electrical requirements in Watts, remember you can convert Amps =
Watts / Voltage.
Then sort your list by
a) things you MUST have on all the time in order to stay aloft
b) things you are required by FAR to have turned on at night-time
c) intermittent loads, such as strobe light maximums, radio
transmitter maximums, fuel pumps that run for a short time and then
turn off, etc. etc.
d) unusual loads that you may only require once in a blue moon, such
as landing lights, pitot heat, etc.
d) things that are luxury items, such as iPods, 2nd radios,
This will help you start understanding how you might want to divide
up the equipment onto the various buses you will be creating. It
will also help you start understanding the maximum size alternator
and battery you will need, what size wire to expect, fuse sizes, etc. etc.
The book will make this all clearer, but this will give you something
to start working on before the book arrives.
Dave Morris
At 10:57 AM 10/7/2006, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am
>about to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find
>myself overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I
>just don't know where to jump in or begin.
>
>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
>
>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty
>clear instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and
>drawings were a little vague) but not for electric installation.
>
>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
>
>Mike Ice
>Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
They are Carling switches with the riveted fast-on terminals.
My master switch was defective from first flight, but not 'burned
out'-just loose rivets leading to fluctuating field current in the
alternator.
The load on the master switch is only about 3 amps maximum.
The strobe has about a constant 7 amp load (nominal). If the voltage
drop, this current increases, as I mentioned... thus overloading the
switch and circuit breaker. Strangely, the Master switch driving the
alternator field has the same characteristics (a drop in bus voltage
increases the current through the switch).
I have a third switch that is suspicious as well... but I haven't
determined if it's the fault of my flap motor.
I've contacted the supplier (B&C). They replaced my Master switch, but
I haven't heard back yet on the other one. I'm not worried about a
replacement... I was concerned that they had a bad batch of switches.
Vern
A DeMarzo wrote:
> Very interesting! What can you tell us about the quality of the
> switches? I would think the opposite, with the master having more
> duty. At least the strobes have a bit of time to cool so maybe less of
> a load!
>
>
> On 10/07/2006 6:16:48 PM, Vern Little (rv-9a-online(at)telus.net
> ) wrote:
> .
> > net>
> >
> > I just experience my second switch failure in 100 hours. The first time
> > is was the master switch (loose switch terminals), this time it was my
> > Strobe power supply switch.
> >
> > Symptoms: tripping breaker at shut down, and burned fast-on terminal
> > insulation at the switch.
> >
> > An inspection of the switch showed that the terminals were loose and
> > discolored, indicating high internal temperatures.
> >
> > Bench testing with a constant current power supply indicated flaky
> > terminals and overheating.
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | Re: new to this list |
Dave,
Thanks for the great ideas. I have begun to make lists and your right it
gives me something to do which is a big help.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave N6030X" <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list
>
>
> One thing you can start doing before you even get "The Book" is to start
> making a list of all your electrically operated equipment. Everything
> from strobe lights to fuel pumps to electronic ignition systems, clocks,
> radios, etc.
>
> Get the manufacturer's specs on each one and write down the "Current"
> requirements for each. These will be stated in milliamps or Amps. For
> radios, it may give one current requirement for receiving and a different
> one for transmitting. Note that this is NOT the "fuse size" or "breaker
> size" given. If they only give you the electrical requirements in Watts,
> remember you can convert Amps = Watts / Voltage.
>
> Then sort your list by
> a) things you MUST have on all the time in order to stay aloft
> b) things you are required by FAR to have turned on at night-time
> c) intermittent loads, such as strobe light maximums, radio transmitter
> maximums, fuel pumps that run for a short time and then turn off, etc.
> etc.
> d) unusual loads that you may only require once in a blue moon, such as
> landing lights, pitot heat, etc.
> d) things that are luxury items, such as iPods, 2nd radios,
>
> This will help you start understanding how you might want to divide up the
> equipment onto the various buses you will be creating. It will also help
> you start understanding the maximum size alternator and battery you will
> need, what size wire to expect, fuse sizes, etc. etc.
>
> The book will make this all clearer, but this will give you something to
> start working on before the book arrives.
>
> Dave Morris
>
>
> At 10:57 AM 10/7/2006, you wrote:
>>Hello,
>>
>>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about
>>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself
>>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know
>>where to jump in or begin.
>>
>>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
>>
>>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear
>>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a
>>little vague) but not for electric installation.
>>
>>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
>>
>>Mike Ice
>>Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | automatic electric trim switch |
Hi,
I'm installing a trio avionics altitude hold, and it has a cool feature
where it will trim the aircraft for you when it is on. They recommend a
radio shack bridge rectifier (part number 276-1183) and a DPDT relay
(275-206) to allow the normal trim to work even when the altitude hold
is engaged.
I vaguely recall someone selling a little kit with a the stuff needed so
that the pilot and co-pilot can use the trim without having to switch
manually. I assume this must be the same thing. Anyone have any links
to this product? I'd like to see if it either has better packaging or
other features that might be useful.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess(at)bluewin.ch> |
| Subject: | automatic electric trim switch |
Mickey,
I use the Matronics Governor - http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm -
it has the additional advantage of speed regulation of your trim servo.
Greetings from Zollikofen and best wishes,
Alfred
Alfred Buess
Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Mickey
Coggins
Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Oktober 2006 15:35
An: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Betreff: AeroElectric-List: automatic electric trim switch
-->
Hi,
I'm installing a trio avionics altitude hold, and it has a cool feature
where it will trim the aircraft for you when it is on. They recommend a
radio shack bridge rectifier (part number 276-1183) and a DPDT relay
(275-206) to allow the normal trim to work even when the altitude hold is
engaged.
I vaguely recall someone selling a little kit with a the stuff needed so
that the pilot and co-pilot can use the trim without having to switch
manually. I assume this must be the same thing. Anyone have any links
to this product? I'd like to see if it either has better packaging or
other features that might be useful.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
| From: | "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)comcast.net> |
rv-9a-online(at)telus.net wrote:
> The strobe has about a constant 7 amp load (nominal). If the voltage drop, this
current increases, as I mentioned... thus overloading the switch and circuit
breaker.
Uh, no, the current decreases with decreased voltage.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66562#66562
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
Dave,
Why do you think everyone must study and learn the "lesson?"
We are all learned people in different subject areas. I am willing to bet
that anyone who monitors or participates in this forum is not lazy, ignorant,
stupid, or unwilling to learn. In fact, just the opposite is true. We are all
learning.
BUT, when all I need is the time, then that's all I need! I have other, more
important things to do than learn how to build the clock (it probably
wouldn't keep correct time anyway).
Academics don't understand that.
Engineers and pilots do.
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
RV-8A
"Dude!, I asked you for the time,
not how to build a clock!" reaction, usually from those taking a
course because it's required, not because they are interested in the
subject. As a guy who can only understand amps and volts in terms of
water spurting from a garden hose - and I have to be looking at one
to get a clear picture, I am more likely than most on this list to
reach for the inhaler if an answer to a question leaves me with
another question. But, hey, I figure I'm learning, so I reach for
the 'Connection, call Stein, reread installation instructions, search
the archives, kick the cat, or have another beer, and try to work it
out for myself.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net> |
| Subject: | automatic electric trim switch |
Mickey,
I have the one Matt sells and its great!. Take a look at
http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm
Paul
Europa N378PJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
Sorry, Fred... the strobe power supply is a "constant power" as opposed
to a resistive load device. If you decrease the voltage to the power
supply (subject to the lower operating limit), the current increases in
order for it to generate the same strobe output power.
That's why the current required at 28V is about half that required at 12V.
Vern
europa flugzeug fabrik wrote:
>
>
> rv-9a-online(at)telus.net wrote:
>> The strobe has about a constant 7 amp load (nominal). If the voltage drop,
this current increases, as I mentioned... thus overloading the switch and circuit
breaker.
>
> Uh, no, the current decreases with decreased voltage.
>
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66562#66562
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Collin Campbell" <collinc(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | charging system problems |
I am still trying to figure this thing out. The bus voltage is a
constant 14.5 volts. On the last two flights I made (1hr each) I had to
reset the system twice in the first 10 min or so. The rest of the
flight everything seemed to work fine.
Collin,
Bearhawk (N370CC)
>Let me try to describe the problem as best I can. I am using a Van's
35
>amp alt. a VR-371 voltage/over-voltage protector, and a Electronics
>International (VA-1) guage installed in the alt lead. Also using a
Odyssey
>680 battery.
>
>The problem is this: Everything seems to work just fine until maybe
10-15
>minutes into the flight when the discharge light on the VA-1 comes on.
I
>can reset the system by recyling the field breaker and everything goes
>back to normal--charging again. This will last maybe another 10-15
>minutes and the whole process repeats itself. I have checked all my
>conections, replaced the battery, and now am beginning to suspect the
>alternator or even the regulator. But I need some advice before I go
>replacing stuff that doesn't need replacing. (been there done that
before!)
If your system needs "reset", then the symptoms suggest
that the OV protection system in your voltage regulator
is being tripped. This becomes a problem of deducing whether
a real OV condition existed -or- the circuit is being nuisance
tripped.
It's a rational component of troubleshooting to suspect
any component. But it's much better to do measurements
to determine the physics behind the difficulty before embarking
on a swaptronics excursion where one can only hope to pick
the right component . . . with the attendant risk that NONE
of the components replaced will fix the problem.
What are your bus voltages when the system is operating
normally? I'm curious as to how you integrated the VR-371
voltage regulator with a Van's alterantor. I was under the
impression that Van's sold only internally regulated machines.
Let's do the detective work before you pull out any hardware.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
europa flugzeug fabrik wrote:
>
>
>rv-9a-online(at)telus.net wrote:
>
>
>>The strobe has about a constant 7 amp load (nominal). If the voltage drop, this
current increases, as I mentioned... thus overloading the switch and circuit
breaker.
>>
>>
>
>Uh, no, the current decreases with decreased voltage.
>
>
Uh, no, yourself. This is an electronic product and will try to keep
the strobe firing voltage the same regardless of the input voltage.
That means that the power to the strobe head is relatively constant -
which is what you want. To do this the strobe supply draws more current
if the input voltage falls (power = voltage x current).
Dick Tasker
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: new to this list |
Mike,
Welcome aboard! You've met a few folks on the List and
for the short term at least, I'll leave you in good
hands. I've got some pressing family matters that
will keep me out of circulation for a few days.
Bob . . .
>Hello,
>
>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about
>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself
>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know
>where to jump in or begin.
>
>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
>
>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear
>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a
>little vague) but not for electric installation.
>
>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
>
>Mike Ice
>Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: new to this list |
>
>Dave,
>
>Thanks for the great ideas. I have begun to make lists and your right it
>gives me something to do which is a big help.
>
>Mike
Check out the blank form at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/LoadAnalysis.pdf
You need one for EACH bus, typically main, e-bus and battery bus.
Work this in #2 pencil and use pink eraser for modifying the
work product. If you're handy with Excel, you might consider
downloading the spread sheets at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis
These are good examples and starting points for developing
a load analysis that describes what your dream machine
is going to look like. This is a good exercise to do BEFORE
you buy any hardware or start drilling holes in the panel.
The load analysis is a living document so get comfortable
with it (you'll be 95% DONE until a year after the airplane
flies).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Off line for a few days . . . |
My stepmother of some 47 years pass away last Friday
after nearly 2 years of very uncomfortable wrestling with
inoperable cancers. She was 90.
There's a gathering of the clan in Medicine Lodge, Kansas
this week. Given that my father is not in the best of health
either, I'm the surrogate head of family on my father's
behalf with number of important but not necessarily unwelcome
tasks to attend to. Should be back in the saddle on Thursday.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | automatic electric trim switch |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Mickey,
This might have been it....
http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/tcm.html
Cheers,
Michael Sausen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:35 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: automatic electric trim switch
-->
Hi,
I'm installing a trio avionics altitude hold, and it has a cool feature
where it will trim the aircraft for you when it is on. They recommend a
radio shack bridge rectifier (part number 276-1183) and a DPDT relay
(275-206) to allow the normal trim to work even when the altitude hold
is engaged.
I vaguely recall someone selling a little kit with a the stuff needed so
that the pilot and co-pilot can use the trim without having to switch
manually. I assume this must be the same thing. Anyone have any links
to this product? I'd like to see if it either has better packaging or
other features that might be useful.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
| From: | "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu(at)comcast.net> |
rv-9a-online(at)telus.net wrote:
> Sorry, Fred... the strobe power supply is a "constant power" as opposed to a
resistive load device. If you decrease the voltage to the power supply (subject
to the lower operating limit), the current increases in order for it to generate
the same strobe output power.
If you are referring to a strobe power supply designed for 14V/28V, well then yes
we do have a different story. Whelen is like that, but I just now put a 4.0
A Whelen PS on the electronics bench, and the 4.0V spec is apparently peak current,
which occurs in a very brief spike. At 12.3V, that spike is 4.5A, and
mostly below 4.0 through the up/down cycle. At 14.1V, it is within spec at brief
peak. For a 7A Whelen supply, that predicts to no more than an extra 1.0
amp at peak run off batt only, verses charging voltage. If we then look at the
trip curves of a breaker, we will see that a 10A breaker (presume you have
that) does not trip instantly at 10A, or even a notable amount above that, except
after many seconds lapsing. So whats causing your problem such as to burn
up fast-ons, I dont know. Perhaps others can help.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66644#66644
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: automatic electric trim switch |
Europa (Alfred Buess) wrote:
> I use the Matronics Governor - http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm -
> it has the additional advantage of speed regulation of your trim servo.
Thanks for the pointers! I also found one on this site:
http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/
With the rocketboy trim, I now have three to chose from. Most excellent!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "raymondj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Off line for a few days . . . |
Sorry to hear of your loss.
Raymond Julian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off line for a few days . . .
My stepmother of some 47 years pass away last Friday
after nearly 2 years of very uncomfortable wrestling with
inoperable cancers. She was 90.
There's a gathering of the clan in Medicine Lodge, Kansas
this week. Given that my father is not in the best of health
either, I'm the surrogate head of family on my father's
behalf with number of important but not necessarily unwelcome
tasks to attend to. Should be back in the saddle on Thursday.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Re: automatic electric trim switch |
It would be really cool if there could be a side-by-side comparison test
with all three solutions. Particularly the functions, strengths and
weaknesses of each product.
Bret
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: AW: AeroElectric-List: automatic electric trim switch
>
>
> Europa (Alfred Buess) wrote:
>> I use the Matronics Governor -
>> http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm -
>> it has the additional advantage of speed regulation of your trim servo.
>
> Thanks for the pointers! I also found one on this site:
>
> http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/
>
> With the rocketboy trim, I now have three to chose from. Most excellent!
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Off line for a few days . . . |
Bob
My sympathy and prayers are with you and your family. I just lost my 93 year
old father to prostate cancer. He gave me my love of aviation and all things
mechanical.
Frank @ SGU @ SLC wiring a RV7A
>From: "raymondj" <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To:
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Off line for a few days . . .
>Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:14:05 -0500
>
>
>
>Sorry to hear of your loss.
>
>Raymond Julian
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:53 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off line for a few days . . .
>
>
>
>
>My stepmother of some 47 years pass away last Friday
>after nearly 2 years of very uncomfortable wrestling with
>inoperable cancers. She was 90.
>
>There's a gathering of the clan in Medicine Lodge, Kansas
>this week. Given that my father is not in the best of health
>either, I'm the surrogate head of family on my father's
>behalf with number of important but not necessarily unwelcome
>tasks to attend to. Should be back in the saddle on Thursday.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | Re: new to this list |
Bob,
Thanks. Family first. Besides I am in good hands as you say.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Welcome aboard! You've met a few folks on the List and
> for the short term at least, I'll leave you in good
> hands. I've got some pressing family matters that
> will keep me out of circulation for a few days.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about
>>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself
>>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know
>>where to jump in or begin.
>>
>>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob.
>>
>>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear
>>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a
>>little vague) but not for electric installation.
>>
>>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?
>>
>>Mike Ice
>>Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Burned out switch |
Many power supplies, especially switching regulator types, exhibit
what's called 'negative resistance'.
This means that if the input voltage to these power supplies increases,
the power supply input current decreases. These types of power supplies
do not work well when powered from a source that has a high
resistance... such as a malfunctioning switch.
In fact, they will oscillate quite nicely in certain conditions--
producing oscillating current and voltage at the input side... which can
really mess up other devices tied to the input bus.
I had to deal with this problem on power supplies that I designed for a
nuclear research facility (Cyclotron).
I would expect that the Whelen strobe power supply does not oscillate
under these conditions due to conservative design, but they still will
exhibit the inverse relationship between input voltage and input
current, and can therefore lead to higher than rated input currents as
the source voltage drops... and pop the breaker.
As a side note: This also proves that there is rarely a 'nuisance trip'
of a circuit breaker... it was trying to tell me something was not
right. In the end, the wiring was fine, but the terminals, switch and
circuit breaker were all toasted.
BTW, a new switch, terminals and breaker and everything is now working fine.
V
europa flugzeug fabrik wrote:
>
>
> rv-9a-online(at)telus.net wrote:
>> Sorry, Fred... the strobe power supply is a "constant power" as opposed to a
resistive load device. If you decrease the voltage to the power supply (subject
to the lower operating limit), the current increases in order for it to generate
the same strobe output power.
>
> If you are referring to a strobe power supply designed for 14V/28V, well then
yes we do have a different story. Whelen is like that, but I just now put a
4.0 A Whelen PS on the electronics bench, and the 4.0V spec is apparently peak
current, which occurs in a very brief spike. At 12.3V, that spike is 4.5A, and
mostly below 4.0 through the up/down cycle. At 14.1V, it is within spec at
brief peak. For a 7A Whelen supply, that predicts to no more than an extra 1.0
amp at peak run off batt only, verses charging voltage. If we then look at
the trip curves of a breaker, we will see that a 10A breaker (presume you have
that) does not trip instantly at 10A, or even a notable amount above that, except
after many seconds lapsing. So whats causing your problem such as to burn
up fast-ons, I dont know. Perhaps others can help.
>
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66644#66644
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | automatic electric trim switch |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
Mickey
How goes the install of the Subaru?
Here is what I got, and they were great to work with, doing custom
configs as necessary to meet my requirements.
http://www.aircraftextras.com/
Dan
RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: automatic electric trim switch
Hi,
I'm installing a trio avionics altitude hold, and it has a cool feature
where it will trim the aircraft for you when it is on. They recommend a
radio shack bridge rectifier (part number 276-1183) and a DPDT relay
(275-206) to allow the normal trim to work even when the altitude hold
is engaged.
I vaguely recall someone selling a little kit with a the stuff needed so
that the pilot and co-pilot can use the trim without having to switch
manually. I assume this must be the same thing. Anyone have any links
to this product? I'd like to see if it either has better packaging or
other features that might be useful.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Small audio jack question |
I bought an Intercom that allows two music inputs (one for the kids,
one for the grownups). I bought small sockets from Radio Shack.
They expect the usual "tip-ring-sleeve" 3-contact arrangement. But
looking at the male jack on an electronic device I own, it has 4
contact surfaces on the male pin.
So what's the forth one for and will I need it?
Many thanks
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Small audio jack question |
>I bought an Intercom that allows two music inputs (one for the kids, one
>for the grownups). I bought small sockets from Radio Shack.
>They expect the usual "tip-ring-sleeve" 3-contact arrangement. But looking
>at the male jack on an electronic device I own, it has 4 contact surfaces
>on the male pin.
>So what's the forth one for and will I need it?
Wondering if you have what's called a "closed circuit" jack
intended to disconnect a "primary" load (like built
in speaker) when the "secondary" load (like headphones)
is plugged in.
A schematic for such a jack is attached. It has a total of
5 connections right and left inputs, right and left outputs,
plus ground.
f6e8ad.jpg
Does this look like it matches your jack? What's the Radio Shack catalog
number for the part you have?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glennpaulwilkinson" <gpww(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | ELT/CHT cable extension |
Bob,
what is the best method to extend the EGT/CHT cables?
I'm doing a panel upgrade and need to add about 6" to each.
Glenn654
N654RV
RV-4 @ OKZ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | Small audio jack question |
It's not terribly unusual to see a 4-conductor stereo jack/plug wired with
separate grounds for each channel, i.e.
L+
L-
R+
R-
If you need a source for these plugs/jacks, I'll look them up for you...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Small audio jack question
>I bought an Intercom that allows two music inputs (one for the kids, one
>for the grownups). I bought small sockets from Radio Shack.
>They expect the usual "tip-ring-sleeve" 3-contact arrangement. But looking
>at the male jack on an electronic device I own, it has 4 contact surfaces
>on the male pin.
>So what's the forth one for and will I need it?
Wondering if you have what's called a "closed circuit" jack
intended to disconnect a "primary" load (like built
in speaker) when the "secondary" load (like headphones)
is plugged in.
A schematic for such a jack is attached. It has a total of
5 connections right and left inputs, right and left outputs,
plus ground.
f6e8ad.jpg
Does this look like it matches your jack? What's the Radio Shack catalog
number for the part you have?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FAA Part 91.205 |
10/09/2006
Hello Rob, The FAA has a back hand way of applying FAR Sec 91.205 to Amateur
Built Experimental Aircraft (ABEA) and it takes a little research and
careful reading of different documents to sort out what applies when.
First, if you are operating the ABEA day VFR then none, I repeat NONE, of
91.205 applies to the instrumentation or equippage of that aircraft. (See
Note 1 below).
Hard to believe isn't it, but that is true because as you noted 91.205
applies to aircraft with standard category US airworthiness certificates and
not to our ABEA's that instead receive special airworthiness certificates.
(This is what permits very simple ABEA's like a Woody Pusher or Breezy to
fly legally day VFR with nothing in the way of 91.205 instruments or
equipment if the builder / pilot chooses to do so).
Second, the instant that you start operating that ABEA at night or under IFR
then 91.205 comes into play, not to the entire extent (See Note 2 below)
that it does for aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates, but
compliance with 91.205 for ABEA's does become extensive. Why is that?
It is because each ABEA has been issued a special airworthiness certificate
that includes a set of Operating Limitations that contain these words "After
completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for
night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is
to be operated under VFR, day only."
The intent and interpretation by the FAA of that sentence is that if the
ABEA is operating VFR at night then paragraphs 91.205 (b) and (c) must be
complied with. If the ABEA is operating under IFR then paragraphs 91.205
(b), (c), and (d) must be complied with. (I suppose that some sea lawyer
could argue that for day IFR one would not have to comply with 91.205 (c)
(1) and thereby not comply with 91.205 (b), but that is not the way that
the FAA interprets the word "appropriately" in that sentence in the
Operating Limitations.)
Because this subject is a bit convoluted I have put together a table that
lays the information out in fairly compact reference form. I will send you a
copy of this table attached to a separate email. If anyone else would like a
copy just email me. This table was also published on page 50 of the June
2006 issue of Kitplanes magazine.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge
Note 1: While 91.205 (b) (15) may not apply that does not excuse an ABEA
from complying with 91.207 regarding ELT's.
Note 2: Certain sub paragraphs of 91.205 refer to needing "approved" items.
This issue becomes a bit fuzzy because since there are no certification
criteria published for ABEA how can one determine whether an item is
"approved" or not for installation in an ABEA?
A commonly taken position both by many builders and by FAA and DAR initial
airworthiness inspectors of ABEA's is that if the item can affect operations
by other aircraft as well as the ABEA, such as exterior lighting for
example, then an item which has been approved for installation on standard
airworthiness certified aircraft will be required on the ABEA.
On the other hand arguments have been successfully made that if the item
affects only the internal functioning of the ABEA, such as seat belts and
shoulder harnesses for example, then these items do not have to be
"approved" (by a TSO marking for example). I have been involved in a few of
these discussions and, with the aid of communication from FAA headquarters,
have forced the inspector to back off the TSO marking requirement for both
seat belts and shoulder harness which were already purchased and installed
by the builder. I do not recommend letting it get to that point though.
Instead I recommend coordinating with the inspector before the belts are
purchased to determine his individual requirements.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob" <punchy(at)frontiernet.net>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: FAA Part 91.205
OC,
I was wondering if you could clearify FAA Part 91.205 for me. As I
understand this FAR it applies to powered civil aircraft with a standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificate. Is our experimental airworthiness
certificate under this catagory? It requires a manifold pressure gauge for
each altitude engine. It does not require a CHT or EGT. This does not
seem right for experimental aircraft. I would much rather have a CHT and
EGT than a manifold pressure gauge although I have all three on my KIS. I
was also wondering if my VFR day only plane needs to have a strobe and nav
lights?
Maybe you could enlighten me.
Thanks,
Rob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FAA Part 91.205 |
Hello OC,
I'd appreciate a copy of the table you mentioned
Because this subject is a bit convoluted I have put together a table that
lays the information out in fairly compact reference form. I will send you a
copy of this table attached to a separate email. If anyone else would like a
copy just email me. This table was also published on page 50 of the June
2006 issue of Kitplanes magazine.
Thanks,
Tony Babb
Velocity SEFG 62% done, 78% to go
www.alejandra.net/velocity
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT/CHT cable extension |
Get the same exact type of cables you have on each sensor now. IIRC,
the minimum add-on is 12 inches but I don't remember why.
Aircraft Spruce has some at pretty good prices. You could get a 6
footer and cut it down to what you need.
David M.
glennpaulwilkinson wrote:
> Bob,
> what is the best method to extend the EGT/CHT cables?
> I'm doing a panel upgrade and need to add about 6" to each.
>
> Glenn654
> N654RV
> RV-4 @ OKZ
> <<>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FAA Part 91.205 |
>
> I was wondering if you could clearify FAA Part 91.205 for me. As I
> understand this FAR it applies to powered civil aircraft with a
> standard
> category U.S. airworthiness certificate. Is our experimental
> airworthiness
> certificate under this catagory? It requires a manifold pressure
> gauge for
> each altitude engine. It does not require a CHT or EGT. This does
> not
> seem right for experimental aircraft. I would much rather have a
> CHT and
> EGT than a manifold pressure gauge although I have all three on my
> KIS. I
> was also wondering if my VFR day only plane needs to have a strobe
> and nav
> lights?
The reference to an "altitude engine" requires a study of FAR 1.1 to
see that it means "a reciprocating aircraft engine having a rated
takeoff power that is producible from sea level to an established
higher altitude." I.e. it means a turbo-charged or super-charged
engine. Anyone who has such an engine really should have a MP gauge,
whether FAR 91.205 applies to them or not.
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Off line for a few days . . .Off line for a few |
days . . .
My condolences on your loss, Bob.
Marty in Brentwood TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or
nutplates are ferrous metal or not?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Byrne
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
I am assembling my radio stack.
The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
I only have metal.
Regards
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Rack Screws |
Electrolysis? Aluminium and brass? Maybe stainless steel might be the
choice.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
>
>
> What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or
> nutplates are ferrous metal or not?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> Byrne
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
>
>
>
> I am assembling my radio stack.
> The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
> Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
> I only have metal.
>
>
> Regards
> Chris
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT/CHT cable extension |
And, Bob...remember that the connecting wire itself is part of the
thermocouple can affect the reading if not matched, connected or handled
correctly. If you want to do it the way the professionals do (or did, in
my case...retired )connecting the wires mechanically with connectors
whose metal parts also match the wire type is preferable. Soldering
them may cause a degradation in the accuracy, especially if the joint is
in a location where the temperature may be different.
Read everything you ever wanted to know (and a lot you don't care about)
thermocouples here:
www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z021-032.pdf
Omega also has the connectors you want.
Harley Dixon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David M. wrote:
>
> Get the same exact type of cables you have on each sensor now. IIRC,
> the minimum add-on is 12 inches but I don't remember why.
>
> Aircraft Spruce has some at pretty good prices. You could get a 6
> footer and cut it down to what you need.
>
> David M.
>
>
> glennpaulwilkinson wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>> what is the best method to extend the EGT/CHT cables?
>> I'm doing a panel upgrade and need to add about 6" to each.
>>
>> Glenn654
>> N654RV
>> RV-4 @ OKZ
>> <<>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: new to this listnew to this list |
| From: | "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com> |
I'm at a similar stage of construction of my -8A QB. I started with
Bob's book, then the EAA library, then the B&C, SteinAir and other
catalogs (in many cases there are explanations for using an offered
product). I also attended Bob's seminar in Auburn, CA. One thing has
helped me: first develop a very detailed understanding of the basics -
crimping, wire selection, grounding, bus design, contactor operation,
etc. I agonized over the avionics suite but finally decided on the AFP
3500, Garmin 396/496, SL30, ICOM Comm2, PS Enginering Audio Panel, GTX
327, and TruTrak ADI Pilot. I also decided to use a taxi light but no
landing light, a heated pitot, Van's strobes and position lights, and
fuzes instead of circuit breakers. Also decided on a fuel injected
engine.
With all these goodies in mind, I then made preliminary architecture
choices (Bob's Z-13 with two alternators and one battery; exact products
still TBD), decided on fast tabs wherever possible, did an initial bus
distribution design (batt, main and endurance), decided on a common
firewall ground bus, will use conduit for the fuselage wire runs, used
EPanel Builder to see if it all fits (along with standard altimeter, VSI
and AS backup gauges) then thought about specific switches and warning
lights. Finally, carefully analyzed where it'll all go (several
iterations). Just starting the detailed wiring selection and design.
Nothing installed yet, but I'm confident that a one-wire-at-a-time
attitude will provide a doable solution.
Paul Valovich
Ridgecrest, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie Kuss <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
John
I'm simply trying to eliminate as much steel and iron from the
instrument panel. I'm using a panel mounted whiskey compass.
Stainless steel, brass and aluminum do not affect the compass.
Charlie Kuss
>
>
>What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or
>nutplates are ferrous metal or not?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
>Byrne
>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
>
>
>
>I am assembling my radio stack.
>The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
>Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
>I only have metal.
>
>
>Regards
>Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
Okay-I see. At least the screws and nutplates don't move. I think my
magnetic compass can be compensated. Seems like even that big hunk of
iron
just behind the propeller would have some effect on the compass. I
guess if
it turns out to be a problem, I'll be going back to this thread to look
for
those SS parts.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie
Kuss
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
John
I'm simply trying to eliminate as much steel and iron from the
instrument
panel. I'm using a panel mounted whiskey compass. Stainless steel, brass
and
aluminum do not affect the compass.
Charlie Kuss
What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or
nutplates are ferrous metal or not?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[
mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Byrne
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
I am assembling my radio stack.
The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
I only have metal.
Regards
Chris
AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com
- List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Thinking things electic |
I'm not sure if Dr. Dunham intended eclectic or electric in the subject
line, but both would have been appropriate.
I still am not convinced that we must all be so trained on electrics as to
be able to derive all electrical answers from our base knowledge. Sometimes
we don't need the huge foundation of knowledge. To use Dr. Dunham's example,
my grandmother knew how to treat a sore throat (she completed the fourth
grade), yet she had virtually no knowledge of medical techniques. I'm not trying
to put down Dr. Dunham, I'm just saying we don't always need to know
everything in order to accomplish a relatively simple task. But, occasionally,
we
need confirmation from someone who has that knowledge. We need someone who
will look at our electrical plans, and instead of saying study Z-99 and come
back tomorrow, give us advice on how to best implement OUR desired plan. After
I do a load plan and draw my schematics I need someone trained (large
knowledge base) in electrics to analyze my concept and help me find errors. I
am
willing to pay for such advice and I suspect others are willing to do the
same. In many cases, builders don't have the time or desire to learn it all.
STILL, Dr. Dunham makes me think. His is the best argument I've seen on
this forum in favor of indepth learning as opposed to adequate knowledge.
I commend you for your thoughts.
I think I'll rethink my own thoughts and try to implement some of your
thoughts.
How's that for eclectic?
But, I am serious when I say that. I will strive to think more instead of
depending on others to do my electrical thinking. Until I reach that level of
learning (I may never reach it), any electrical experts out there willing to
help me analyze my electrical? I'll pay a 3 month electrical advice
retainer such that I can call and send emails for advice. Bob?
Stan Sutterfield
5% of the people think.
10% of the people think they think.
and 85% of the people would rather DIE than think.
When I graduated from medical school my head was crammed full of "answers".
I could spout facts like nobody's business. Then I met the public and
realized I didn't know how to "doctor" people. In other words, I didn't know
how to think like a doctor!
This revelation came early in my career in a busy ER in Knoxville,
Tennessee. I had a patient with a sore throat and I didn't know how to treat
it, or even where to go to find out. Shocking, isn't it? I was already an
MD. In fact, I already knew how to treat heart attack, stroke and many
serious and life threatening conditions. But I didn't know how to evaluate
that sore throat! I was taken aback, as you might guess.
Fortunately, I had a teacher supervising me who was ready to fill the gaps
in my knowledge. And, even more fortunately, I learned from him how to
evaluate patients, or more correctly, their problems. At first, I was miffed
at him because when I asked him how to treat this patient, he handed me an
article to read! I was busy! The ER was jumping and this "minor" problem was
bogging me down. But, since I wasn't the only MD on duty, and I was in
training after all, I sat down and quickly read the article. After I was
done, I knew what to do. But, most curious of all, I had been exposed to the
thought processes of the author and it transformed my thinking! I have
continually worked to hone my skills as a medical thinker for the past 25
years. But that teacher was the beginning of my real medical education.
Likewise, Bob Nuckolls has been the beginning of my electrical education. He
makes it fun and rewarding. I like it so much I've read the 'Connection at
least a half dozen times. I read this list every day. I've come to LIKE
wiring airplanes! When I tell my OBAM airplane buddies, they just shake
their heads in disbelief. One even asked if I would wire his! :o) You see,
they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They don't want to
have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to fly them!
And, who's to blame them for that? That's why most of us build the dern
things, isn't it? They are content to wire theirs according to the suggested
diagrams supplied with the kit. Why not? It works, doesn't it?
But we AeroElectric listers are the chosen few. Either by education or
avocation we find ourselves thinking things electric. Sure, we want answers,
but, even better, we want our fancies tickled! That's what Bob is doing
here. We like it! We'll have the "answer" soon enough. But I'd like to know
if my manner of thinking works! After all, I may be up there screaming along
in my Sky Scorcher someday when things go awry and I'm gonna be all I've got
to get things managable! I want the confidence to get that done. And Bob's
method of teaching fills that need for me. At least concerning things
electric.
Rodney in Tennessee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Radio Rack Screws |
John
The biggest issue is distance from the compass. Magnetic steels and iron parts
are not normally used in the instrument panel. Look at the radio rack trays used.
They are all either aluminum or stainless steel for this reason.
Charlie Kuss
---- John Swartout wrote:
> Okay-I see. At least the screws and nutplates don't move. I think my
> magnetic compass can be compensated. Seems like even that big hunk of iron
> just behind the propeller would have some effect on the compass. I guess if
> it turns out to be a problem, I'll be going back to this thread to look for
> those SS parts.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> Kuss
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:19 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
>
>
>
> John
> I'm simply trying to eliminate as much steel and iron from the instrument
> panel. I'm using a panel mounted whiskey compass. Stainless steel, brass and
> aluminum do not affect the compass.
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or
> nutplates are ferrous metal or not?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [
> mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> Byrne
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws
>
>
>
> I am assembling my radio stack.
> The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle.
> Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass?
> I only have metal.
>
>
> Regards
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> http://forums.matronics.com
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> http://wiki.matronics.com
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Slaughter" <willslau(at)alumni.rice.edu> |
| Subject: | new to this listnew to this list |
Paul,
One tip here. I use EPanel Builder for conceptual layouts and like it a
lot,
but it is very easy to create combinations that will not fit on the
panel in
real life. I have an actual CAD drawing for the final fitting. If you
don't
have a CAD program available, measure your combination on the instrument
panel blank before getting totally invested in a particular design
layout.
Happy wiring!
William Slaughter
RV-8 Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Valovich,
Paul
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this listnew to this list
I'm at a similar stage of construction of my -8A QB. I started with
Bob's
book, then the EAA library, then the B&C, SteinAir and other catalogs
(in
many cases there are explanations for using an offered product). I also
attended Bob's seminar in Auburn, CA. One thing has helped me: first
develop
a very detailed understanding of the basics - crimping, wire selection,
grounding, bus design, contactor operation, etc. I agonized over the
avionics suite but finally decided on the AFP 3500, Garmin 396/496,
SL30,
ICOM Comm2, PS Enginering Audio Panel, GTX 327, and TruTrak ADI Pilot. I
also decided to use a taxi light but no landing light, a heated pitot,
Van's
strobes and position lights, and fuzes instead of circuit breakers.
Also
decided on a fuel injected engine.
With all these goodies in mind, I then made preliminary architecture
choices
(Bob's Z-13 with two alternators and one battery; exact products still
TBD),
decided on fast tabs wherever possible, did an initial bus distribution
design (batt, main and endurance), decided on a common firewall ground
bus,
will use conduit for the fuselage wire runs, used EPanel Builder to see
if
it all fits (along with standard altimeter, VSI and AS backup gauges)
then
thought about specific switches and warning lights. Finally, carefully
analyzed where it'll all go (several iterations). Just starting the
detailed
wiring selection and design.
Nothing installed yet, but I'm confident that a one-wire-at-a-time
attitude
will provide a doable solution.
Paul Valovich
Ridgecrest, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "PIAVIS" <piavis(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) |
I'm approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this board but
forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions.
I'm starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an RV-7,
IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327), P800B audio panel,
and TT DigiFlight II AP.
I've done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do have a
full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against Normal Ops, Main
Alt Fail, and Battery only):
Main Buss: Total 26.5A
Alt Field
Lights - Taxi
Lights - Nav
Lights - Strobe
Pitot Heat
Flap Motor
Auto Pilot - Pitch
Auto Pilot - Roll
Auto Pilot - Control Head
E-Buss: 6.4A
Alt Field
EFIS 2 HIS
Magnatometer/ AHRS
Trim - Roll
Trim - Pitch
Turn Coordinator
GNS-480 (Nav)
GNS-480 (General)
GNS-480 (Com)
GTX-327 (Xpondr)
Battery: Average 4A
EFIS 1 ADI
Fuel Pump
Starter
EDI 4000 (Eng Monitor)
GMA-340 (Audio)
SL-30 (Nav)
SL-30 (Com-Rec)
SL-30 (Com-Tx)
EI #1 (P-Mag)
EI #2 (P-Mag)
Lights - Lnd
"Lights - Flood/Cargo -.1
Cargo - .1
Panel- .5A
Cockpit - .2"
Main Battery Contactor
Starter Contactor
Clock
The list for the Battery buss seems extensive but my thoughts were that if
stuck on top IFR, these items are potentially needed. Yes, that assumes both
main and SD-8 alternator went south. The question is, using an SD-8, can run
over 8A on the buss? Is this a valid distribution of components? Some of
these on the Batt buss are also used for start (EIS) or ground ops (lights,
clock). The other question is can I split the power leads on the SL-30
without making the radio inop for receive- only?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | S700 2-10 Switches |
I am using Z13/8 for wiring my Cozy.
At this stage I am installing one PMAG and one impulse Slick.
As I intend to eventually run two PMAG's I am installing two S700 2-10
switches. After repeated efforts I still do not understand the connection on
these switches at all.
The question is, how do I wire the Slick to the 2-10 switch. I need to know
which tabs the shield and core attach to.
Thanks
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) |
| From: | "Jekyll" <rcitjh(at)aol.com> |
Look more closely at the Z-13/8 schematic. Notice that the E-bus bypasses the battery
contactor by running through the B-bus path. Therefore, the battery contactor
draw is only on the M-bus.
Next, most of the loads on your B-bus are more appropriate for the other busses.
Your B-bus should most likely contain only the items you want hot at all times,
IE: those items you always want on, even when not operating such as your clock,
hobbs, dome light (In your case, the cockpit light) or an accessory plug.
Remember the purpose of your E-bus: to provide an uneventful transition from normal
operations to an endurance method to safely get you where you are going with
the movement of 2 switches (turn off the master/battery and turn on the alternate
feed). Once you arrive, you can turn the master/battery back on and use
your other systems for approach and landing with a full battery to provide the
extra load capacity.
Here are some specific things to consider:
The chance of both alternators failing the same bag of gas is very, very remote.
You will probably be starting with both the M-bus and E-bus on; no real reason
to start on just the B-bus that I know of, adding that capability clutters up
your B-bus (remember, there is no way to turn off your B-bus other than disconnecting
the battery. If you introduce a switch, then you really don't have a B-bus.
The EIS-4000 may be on the E-bus and be on for start and during the endurance flight.
Some folks say the engine info is not needed for endurance flight and they
are probably correct. My view is that it is a GOOD thing to have in endurance
mode IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT.
Wire 1 DU, the AHARS and the magnetometer to the E-bus, make sure you have an on/off
switch for the EFIS per GRT recommendations. The EIS-4000 doesn't need a
switch.
>From the B-bus: Move the fuel pump, starter, starter contactor, second com/nav,
battery contactor, EFIS 1 ADI, GMA-340, landing light, flood/cargo lights to
the M-bus.
Leave the clock, cockpit lights and both mags on the B-bus (P-mags are optional
here because they will generate internal power over approximately 700 rpm).
Check the GMA-340 to see if it has a power off default to direct feed for #1 COM/NAV.
I bet it does and therefore, no power to the audio panel is needed to operate
#1 com/nav on the E-bus.
Consider placing the A/P on the E-bus. If you are IFR, you'll want this for safety
and peace of mind.
You can have "normally-off" items on your E-bus with no penalty. I have a windscreen
fan on mine. It only draws .45 amps and it is a transient load, not continuous
so it doesn't add into my E-bus load. I'll turn it on for short periods
if my glass fogs.
You didn't provide your load analysis so I don't know how you calcuated the trim.
I assume you understand the trims are transient loads and don't effect your
E-bus load.
I'm not a GNS-480 user but I believe they have com/nav/GPS/WAAS. Look over your
load numbers and see if the extra load over and above that of just the SL-30
is worth the allocation. You may decide the SL-30 is enough. It meets the FAA
requirements and is an extremely powerful device. I bet you will have a backup
handheld GPS when you are IFR. You can easily wire your panel to allow you to
plug the handheld into the EFIS and AP through an isolator switch. In this way,
you save some of your load for other items and still have your GPS and com/nav.
You will lose the WAAS enabled IFR GPS but you will have VOR/LOC/GS and the
EFIS enhancements of your handheld GPS to include full capability of the AP.
The GTX-327 should go on the M-bus. It is not required for safe continuance of
flight. The FAA has transponder-inoperative procedures. Should you really need
to ident, you can turn the M-bus on for a minute to make contact. The transponder
takes 1.5 amps and is almost 20% of the output from the SD-8. Save that power
for more important things such as the AP.
Finally, you are not limited to a total of 8 amps on your B and E-busses. Your
battery will make up for any deficiencies. Say your total endurance load is 9
amps, the SD-8 will provide 8 amps and the battery will make up the extra 1 amp.
Even a poor battery should be able to provide 1 amp for a tank's worth of fuel;
it did start your engine after all. If you notice some problems developing
down the road, you can start to remove loads from the E-bus as the need arises.
Remember, the E-bus is there to provide you a no-brainer, no-sweat method
to safely and quickly reconfigure your electrical system to an endurance mode
with the movement of 2 switches no thinking, no troubleshooting and no calculations.
I don't know the answer about configuring the SL-30 to power only receive mode.
I think it has 2 power feeds, 1 for com and 1 for nav.
I don't make any assertions that my observations are complete or even accurate.
Just provideing another perspective that might help you. I found this part of
building to be very fun and informative. It's where the learning and operational
planning merge. Your methods and results may vary.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67159#67159
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gianni Zuliani" <gz(at)comgz.com> |
| Subject: | Two shunts on one amperometer |
Hi all,
As I'm not decided where is the best place to connect the shunt of my
amperometer, I was considering to use two shunts: one on the
alternator output and the other checking all the electrical loads
(except starter).
The two shunts would go to the gauge through a a S700-2-3 ON-ON double pole
switch.
The advantage would be to be able to check alt output and, in case of alt
failure, check the battery depletion rate.
Any comment or criticism from the experts?
Gianni Zuliani
Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850
Mobile +41 79 3373439
Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR
http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Magneto Switches and Wiring |
In a message dated 9/14/2006 6:14:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SMITHBKN(at)aol.com writes:
Listers,
I've read Bob's book and searched the archives but still can't seem to find
answers to confirm that my desired approach on magneto and starter wiring will
work (or maybe there is a simpler way).
I have two traditional magnetos for an IO-360. I would like to have a toggle
switch for each mag, and a momentary toggle for the starter (with a toggle
guard for added protection of inadvertent activation).
I don't fully understand the "impulse" aspect of the magneto. Could someone
help explain such and outline the correct wiring for this setup?
Thanks,
Jeff
==================================
Jeff:
Did you get a useful answer as yet?
The idea of dual toggle switches (SPST) is PERFECTLY acceptable. The switch
should be a good quality and physically robust just for S&G's I used a 15 Amp
switch ... ONLY because of the solid feel the switch had in opening and
closing and that it would function well with gloves on.
Impulse coupling - In this regard there is a lot to say and understand - but,
here is the short and simple response:
1 - If you have dual Mags usually in 99.9% of the cases the LEFT Mag is the
impulse Mag.
2 - For a few extra bucks you can make BOTH mags impulse mags. It will
require:
Impulse Mag
Impulse Mag drive gear
Longer mounting studs (2)
Adapter ring
Ring gasket
Seat gasket
The advantage of dual impulse mags is more spark to start the engine and much
less chance not being able to start when the pawl fails... Double your
chances of starting.
3 - The Normal spinning of the prop is NOT fast enough to induce an
electrical current into the Mag coil to produce a spark.
4 - The Normal timing of a Mag is 25 DBTDC and that is not at a proper point
for the spark to fire and START the engine.
5 - The impulse Mag has a Pin and a Pawl. The Pawl catches on the pin (at
LOW RPM's) and cocks back a spring. When the pawl is released two things happen:
a> The Spring SNAPS the Mag's spinning Magnet at a much higher speed which
induced a voltage into the Mag coil. More speed equals more spark.
b> The delayed action of the snap also occurs at TDC which is a better timing
location for the starting of the engine.
6 - Once the engine has started the centrifugal force of the higher spinning
RPM throws the pawl to the outside and away from the pin so this disarm the
impulse portion of the impulse Mag.
I have dual impulse mags on my O-320. Only because I was stranded for 3
hours when the impulse Mag failed.
OK, wiring ... Simple ...
Mag Wiring - ON is OFF and OFF is ON.
When the Mag switch is DOWN - ON ... YES ... ON. You are GROUNDING the 'P'
Lead of the Mag and this sends the spark created by the Mag to ground and away
from the spark plugs.
When the Mag switch is UP - OFF ... YES ... OFF. The Ground is removed from
the 'P' Lead and the Mag is HOT and ready to send a spark to the spark plugs.
When you say "Toggle Guard" I guess you are referring to that fancy RED
Plastic cover over the Starter Switch? Sure that is a good idea. BUT DON'T put
them on the MAG switches ... Only on the Starter Switch.
Hope this helped?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Two shunts on one amperometer |
>
>Hi all,
>
>As I'm not decided where is the best place to connect the shunt of my
>amperometer, I was considering to use two shunts: one on the
>alternator output and the other checking all the electrical loads
>(except starter).
>The two shunts would go to the gauge through a a S700-2-3 ON-ON double pole
>switch.
>The advantage would be to be able to check alt output and, in case of alt
>failure, check the battery depletion rate.
>Any comment or criticism from the experts?
Measuring the battery depletion rate for alternator-out
operations by installing n ammeter suggests that you're
not planning to control battery life by a combination of
(1) choosing a battery capacity sufficient to operate
KNOWN loads for what ever duration you choose as part
of your design for alternator-out operations (Plan-B).
(2) maintaining the battery with either periodic
capacity tests or preventative maintenance by replacement
so that conditions under Plan-B are satisfied.
The point is that KNOWING battery loads "right now"
is useless if you don't know what the battery's capacity
is. Further, planning to do any kind of mathematical
gymnastics in flight so as to pick-and-choose from
electrical items you're not going to turn off is
poor design . . . it distracts from your duties
as pilot while you fuss with systems analysis
under duress while in flight.
The most useful instrument under battery-only
operations is the voltmeter, not the ammeter . . .
and then only to tell you whether your planning
and maintenance efforts have paid off. If the
battery drops below 11.0 volts sooner than you've
predicted, then you know you've blown the design
goal for achieving and maintaining a PREDICABLE
level of performance under battery-only operations.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) |
>I m approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this board but
>forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions.
>
>
>I m starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an RV-7,
>IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327), P800B audio
>panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP.
>
>
>I ve done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do have
>a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against Normal Ops,
>Main Alt Fail, and Battery only):
>
>
>Main Buss: Total 26.5A
>
>Alt Field
>Lights - Taxi
>Lights - Nav
>Lights - Strobe
>Pitot Heat
>Flap Motor
>Auto Pilot - Pitch
>Auto Pilot - Roll
>Auto Pilot - Control Head
>
>
>E-Buss: 6.4A
>
>Alt Field
>EFIS 2 HIS
>Magnatometer/ AHRS
>Trim - Roll
>Trim - Pitch
>Turn Coordinator
>GNS-480 (Nav)
>GNS-480 (General)
>GNS-480 (Com)
>GTX-327 (Xpondr)
>Battery: Average 4A
>EFIS 1 ADI
>Fuel Pump
>Starter
>EDI 4000 (Eng Monitor)
>GMA-340 (Audio)
>SL-30 (Nav)
>SL-30 (Com-Rec)
>SL-30 (Com-Tx)
>EI #1 (P-Mag)
>EI #2 (P-Mag)
>Lights - Lnd
>"Lights - Flood/Cargo -.1
> Cargo - .1
> Panel- .5A
> Cockpit - .2"
>Main Battery Contactor
>Starter Contactor
>Clock
It's not clear from your narration that you've categorized this
list of loads for modes of operation. Not all loads are on
for all modes of operation. The battery bus has things on
it that are (1) not necessary for keeping an engine running
or (2) need to be operable on the ground with the rest of
the airplane powered down.
Suggest you use this form as a guide:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf
prepare one page for each of the three busses. Decide
which load item will feed from which bus, what CONTINUOUS
loads they present to the bus and under what conditions
those loads would be present.
>
>
>The list for the Battery buss seems extensive but my thoughts were that if
>stuck on top IFR, these items are potentially needed. Yes, that assumes
>both main and SD-8 alternator went south. The question is, using an SD-8,
>can run over 8A on the buss? Is this a valid distribution of components?
>Some of these on the Batt buss are also used for start (EIS) or ground ops
>(lights, clock). The other question is can I split the power leads on the
>SL-30 without making the radio inop for receive- only?
Don't understand the "receive only" mode . . . if you
don't punch the mic button, then you're in a receive
only mode no matter how power is wired to the transceiver.
All SL-30 loads would be supplied by the e-bus which
needs to be pre-flighted anyhow by closing the e-bus
alternate feed switch before closing the master contactor.
Get your ATIS and Clearance before bringing the main bus
up and starting the engine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Two shunts on one amperometer |
Seems like extra work and expense for little gain Gianni.
With a shunt on the alternator you can quickly become familiar with the
current draw of various items. After an alternator failure it is very
unlikely that you can manage the current draw for any specific battery
life unless you have a brand new, tested, fully charged battery at room
temperature, and have a second pilot to fly the plane while you fiddle
with it. Just turn everything off that is not needed and revert to a
previous plan that probably entails use of an E-bus.
Ken L.
Gianni Zuliani wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>As I'm not decided where is the best place to connect the shunt of my
>amperometer, I was considering to use two shunts: one on the
>alternator output and the other checking all the electrical loads
>(except starter).
>The two shunts would go to the gauge through a a S700-2-3 ON-ON double pole
>switch.
>The advantage would be to be able to check alt output and, in case of alt
>failure, check the battery depletion rate.
>Any comment or criticism from the experts?
>
>Gianni Zuliani
>Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850
>Mobile +41 79 3373439
>Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR
>http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Anti-rotation washer |
What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the
toggle switches I bought had them.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
I can't find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that
with
the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on all the
time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not sufficient to
determine this for myself) it seems that, while innovative, this is not
really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to always be on, the same battery
that
starts your engine could excite the SD-8 at the start of each flight.
The
only way self-excitation would be useful would be if you were out in the
bush with a dead battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine.
First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on?
Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the engine
is
turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always on-line?
Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
I can't find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that
with
the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on all the
time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not sufficient to
determine this for myself) it seems that, while innovative, this is not
really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to always be on, the same battery
that
starts your engine could excite the SD-8 at the start of each flight.
The
only way self-excitation would be useful would be if you were out in the
bush with a dead battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine.
First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on?
Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the engine
is
turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always on-line?
Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anti-rotation washer |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
B and C sells them.. Go here:
http://www.bandc.biz/parts.html
And enter "washer" into the search window. The first hit is the one I
think you need.. Not sure if the diameter of the switches are all the
same, however.
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the
> toggle switches I bought had them.
>
> --
> ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
> ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
> o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil> |
| Subject: | Anti-rotation washer |
Ernest -
I have bought those washers from both SteinAir and B&C.
neal
What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the toggle
switches I bought had them.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | S700 2-10 Switches |
I am using Z13/8 for wiring my Cozy.
At this stage I am installing one PMAG and one impulse Slick.
As I intend to eventually run two PMAG's I am installing two S700 2-10
switches. After repeated efforts I still do not understand the connection on
these switches at all.
The question is, how do I wire the Slick to the 2-10 switch. I need to know
which tabs the shield and core attach to.
Thanks
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
>I can t find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that with
>the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on all the
>time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not sufficient to
>determine this for myself) it seems that, while innovative, this is not
>really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to always be on, the same battery
>that starts your engine could excite the SD-8 at the start of each
>flight. The only way self-excitation would be useful would be if you were
>out in the bush with a dead battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine.
Yup, you got it. Generators of yore carried sufficient
residual field magnetism to come on line without benefit
of external power sources. Generators that have stood
idle for a long time may loose this residual and require
recharging of the field poles with a technique called
"flashing".
Alternators were seldom if ever designed to support
any residual in the field so the vast majority of alternators
in service require external startup energy to come alive.
This can be an exceedingly small voltage . . . say between
0.2 and 1.0 volts of field voltage. However, given the
very high speeds for rotating a typical alternator on
Lycoming engines, some folks have reported that their
modern alternators will come alive without benefit of
external voltage applied.
>First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on?
The SD-8 is a PERMANENT MAGNET alternator . . . if
it's spinning, it's producing voltage. So in this sense,
it's always ON and there's nothing you can do to change that.
Many SD-8 users have noted, however, that the REGULATOR
supplied with the SD-8 will not come alive solely on
voltage supplied from the alternator side of the system.
Again, an exceedingly small voltage on the system side
of the regulator (about .6 volts) to forward bias one
of the critical solid state devices in the regulator
would kick-start the regulator.
The notion of being "always ON" or "ON-OFF under
panel control" does not have the same meaning for the
SD-8 system as for it's bigger generator/alternator
cousins. However, given the special duty assigned to
the SD-8 in a Z-13 installation, it's not an unreasonable
design goal to have the system become useful whether or
not there is a battery present.
Earlier discussions about the quality of SD-8 power
sans battery suggests that a "self-excitation" feature
is useful. I've suggested that B&C pursue this as a
product improvement but until that happens, Z-25 is
the way to make it happen.
>Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the engine is
>turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always on-line?
It's not "on line" until a connection exists between
the regulator output and the bus. There are many systems
in aircraft that operate similarly. A number of generator
installations on turbine aircraft can be taken "off line"
by opening the reverse current control contactor . . . the
generator is still up and running, producing whatever voltage
the regulator commands . . . but no utilization of that
energy can be made until the contactor is closed. This is
how the SD-8 operates under the Z-13 architecture.
Know that if you pre-flight the SD-8, the first time you
turn it on after the engine is started, it will come alive
and remain alive as long as it's being turned by the engine.
The only thing that the Z-25 mod gets you is a cold startup
sans battery.
>
>
>Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed?
Sure. Put the relay in series with the AC output from
the alternator . . . but then a second set of contacts
on the same relay would be used to keep a small amount
of bias current from constantly loading the battery when
the airplane is parked. You double the probability of
relay failure while adding no operational value for
having done so. Hence the configuration of Z-13 as you
see it whether or not modified per Z-25.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: S700 2-10 Switches |
>
> I am using Z13/8 for wiring my Cozy.
>At this stage I am installing one PMAG and one impulse Slick.
>As I intend to eventually run two PMAG's I am installing two S700 2-10
>switches. After repeated efforts I still do not understand the connection on
>these switches at all.
>
> The question is, how do I wire the Slick to the 2-10 switch. I need to know
>which tabs the shield and core attach to.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Ignition/EMag-Magneto_Wiring_Options.pdf
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: S700 2-10 Switches |
Bob.
Thanks very much.
I note the date on the REV-A- was yesterday.
Your efforts are very much appreciated.
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | S700 2-10 Switches |
Hehe... That'd prolly be *today* in the US :)... At least the version I saw,
had a 10/12/06 date, or for you down unders... A 06/10/12 date. Anyway,
it's still the 12th in US land :)...
Good luck and a very timely creation and response Bob!
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Byrne
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S700 2-10 Switches
-->
Bob.
Thanks very much.
I note the date on the REV-A- was yesterday.
Your efforts are very much appreciated.
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anti-rotation washer |
Matt Prather wrote:
>
>B and C sells them.. Go here:
>
>http://www.bandc.biz/parts.html
>
>And enter "washer" into the search window. The first hit is the one I
>think you need.. Not sure if the diameter of the switches are all the
>same, however.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt-
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the
>>toggle switches I bought had them.
>>
>>
>
Thank you, Matt. I had looked on B&C's sight before, but couldn't find
the washers listed seperately.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | re: Thinking things Electric |
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:09:04 EDT
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Thinking things electic
Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
X-Antivirus: AVG for E-mail 7.1.408 [268.13.2/471]
I'm not sure if Dr. Dunham intended eclectic or electric
in the subject line, but both would have been appropriate.
I still am not convinced that we must all be so trained on electrics
as to be able to derive all electrical answers from our base knowledge.
Sometimes we don't need the huge foundation of knowledge. To use
Dr. Dunham's example, my grandmother knew how to treat a sore throat
(she completed the fourth grade), yet she had virtually no knowledge
of medical techniques.
Absolutely! There are no imperatives for the depth of
knowledge to which one should aspire in setting the course
for life beyond the minimum necessary for self-sufficiency.
I'm not trying to put down Dr. Dunham, I'm just saying we don't
always need to know everything in order to accomplish a relatively
simple task. But, occasionally, we need confirmation from someone
who has that knowledge.
Yup, virtually all of us use the services of folks who
specialize in certain talents and resources to support
our occasional need. I never used a mechanic much 20 years
ago but find it's not a good use of my time to do
the things my mechanic does for me today.
We need someone who will look at our electrical plans, and
instead of saying study Z-99 and come back tomorrow, give us
advice on how to best implement OUR desired plan.
And many do DESIRE that service . . . I get dozens of
packages in the mail and email every year from folks
who may or may not have studied any of the Z-figures
with the hope that I'll study his/her plan and suggest
places where the bugs are hiding.
In many cases, their understanding and skill of the
language and syntax (symbols and drawings) are such that
it would take a lot of hours to achieve a lucid understanding
of the proposed system.
After I do a load plan and draw my schematics I need someone trained
(large knowledge base) in electrics to analyze my concept and help
me find errors.
Say I were to purchase a little successful grocery store,
would it be wise to completely re-arrange the order
of things in the room . . . or would it be a good idea to
study and understand why things are placed where
they are? Some large retailers spend gazillions of
dollars in with human factors geeks studying the
ways to optimize product flow off the shelves. A
little mom-n-pop grocery store didn't have a big
marketing budget, but perhaps they fiddled with
changes and observed their effects over the years
so that when I came along at their retirement, the
business being offered had already benefited from
optimization.
EVERY time I begin a new design task, I've found
it useful to study and understand the history
of what's gone before. There are often times perfectly
good wheels that do not need re-inventing . . .
along with design features worthy of replacement
because of poor diligence on the part of earlier
designers and/or technology obsolescence.
This is why the z-figures were crafted. The notion
was that having selected an architecture for the
operational and redundancy features, then all that
remained was to specify appliances, wire sizes,
fuse/breaker sizes and what style of switches were
most attractive. Probability of intractable error
is small.
This is why my consistent suggestion to new builders
is to "pick a z-figure that most closely matches what
you believe your design goals to be . . . then let's
talk about modifications fix any perceived shortfalls."
More often than not, perceived shortfalls are not
founded on simple-ideas or useful operational
features and can be disregarded. The z-figures
were never intended to be a collection of dreams
pulled from where the sun don't shine. They've
evolved over the years and have become rather stable
today because "mom-n-pop have been making considered
re-arrangements of cans on the shelves". Further
decisions for changes are limited to what sizes of
cans and perhaps what brands to stock.
I am willing to pay for such advice and I suspect others are
willing to do the same. In many cases, builders don't have the
time or desire to learn it all.
Quite correct. And there was a time when I thought
it would be a nice adjunct to my business to offer
custom wirebook services. I hung out the shingle
and in a few months of minimal advertising, I had
a backlog of work that I'd never dig out of. Problem
was, the work was very much like that which many of
my contemporaries are occupied with . . . pushing
around large piles of paper. I can do it but it's
the last thing I want to do in spite of the fact
that it paid very well.
STILL, Dr. Dunham makes me think. His is the best argument
I've seen on this forum in favor of in-depth learning as opposed
to adequate knowledge.
I commend you for your thoughts.
I think I'll rethink my own thoughts and try to implement some of your
thoughts.
How's that for eclectic?
But, I am serious when I say that. I will strive to think more
instead of depending on others to do my electrical thinking.
Until I reach that level of learning (I may never reach it),
any electrical experts out there willing to help me analyze my
electrical?
I don't go into McDonalds expecting to order a t-bone
and I don't expect Subway to offer a cheesburger and fries.
But I patronize either on occasion . . . with fully
informed expectations of what is offered in exchange
for my $time$.
There are numerous folks here on the list who are
most capable and willing to offer good critical review
and advice. Scan your drawings and post them. I don't
take up any tasks that come in through my mail-boxes but
I will do tasks that come up in this forum . . . that
is what's offered on the menu in this intellectual restaurant.
I'll pay a 3 month electrical advice retainer such that I can call
and send emails for advice. Bob?
Save your money and instead invest the $time$ necessary
to communicate your ideas to the group. You're swapping
dollars expended to hire "expert" advice for $time$ to
exploit the collective talents of those who choose to
"dine" here. The end product (your airplane) will probably
be better and your participation will leave a legacy
of expanded understanding for those who participate
and observe . . . to my mind a MUCH better return on
investment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 'Scope offer from Saelig |
A few days ago I mentioned an oscilloscope being offered by
Saelig at:
http://saelig.com/
I just received the one I had on order. It's a rough clone
of the Tektronix TDS200 series scopes. Only 25 Mhz but it's
in color. Comes with two probes ($50 value alone). The USB
cable and attending software lets you dump both image and
tabular data to a computer. Here's the test setup on my
bench.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/PDS5022S_OWON_Scope.jpg
Once the data has been dumped to the computer it can be manipulated
in a variety of ways including print to hard copy. Haven't had
occasion to do any serious measurements but I can say that for
$299, it's a hell-of-a-buy.
I'm going to use it as my 'beater' scope to drag around
for looking into problems on airplanes and save my Tek
for less stressful bench work.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
I'm not sure that I'd want self excitation for my system. Also FWIW I
now believe that the 20,000 uF capacitor on the output of the PM
alternator regulator may be a really good idea. I omitted it because I
hard wired the output to an 8AH battery (without a battery contactor)
and figured that would suffice. There was no apparent electrical noise
from the alternator. As mentioned recently though, I started the engine
once with a completely dead battery. I closed the crossfeed contactor
(Z-14 architecture) and observed the alternator charging. Upon opening
the crossfeed contactor, the OVM module immediately tripped and cut
power to the input of the regulator. I did that a couple of times.
Problem was that the John Deere regulator was now failed in the full on
mode. I surmise that the totally dead battery was ineffective at
absorbing any current and keeping the voltage down and that the
regulator fried itself during the few milliseconds that it took for the
OVM to trip. The crossfeed autocloses during cranking and I had
previously closed it with the engine running with no problems. Actually
the system also ran fine with the failed VR and the crossfeed closed as
long as system loads were kept above the 20 amp output of the PM alternator.
I replaced the regulator but being hard headed I have not added a
capacitor. I now know enough not to bring the alternator on line with a
dead battery. However I did add some transorbs which might limit the
voltage for the short period until the OVM trips if I should be silly
enough to accidentally do somethng similar again.
I didn't learn much from an autopsy on the VR other than it uses output
semiconductors that appear to be fabricated on a copper plate instead of
off the shelf devices. The circuit board used surface mount devices and
I gave up on drawing a circuit diagram. I would like to find a
reasonably simple circuit for a homemade replacement VR. I don't really
have the time to properly test a completely new design.
Ken L.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>> I can t find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that
>> with the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on
>> all the time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not
>> sufficient to determine this for myself) it seems that, while
>> innovative, this is not really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to
>> always be on, the same battery that starts your engine could excite
>> the SD-8 at the start of each flight. The only way self-excitation
>> would be useful would be if you were out in the bush with a dead
>> battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine.
>
>
> Yup, you got it. Generators of yore carried sufficient
> residual field magnetism to come on line without benefit
> of external power sources. Generators that have stood
> idle for a long time may loose this residual and require
> recharging of the field poles with a technique called
> "flashing".
>
> Alternators were seldom if ever designed to support
> any residual in the field so the vast majority of alternators
> in service require external startup energy to come alive.
> This can be an exceedingly small voltage . . . say between
> 0.2 and 1.0 volts of field voltage. However, given the
> very high speeds for rotating a typical alternator on
> Lycoming engines, some folks have reported that their
> modern alternators will come alive without benefit of
> external voltage applied.
>
>
>> First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on?
>
>
> The SD-8 is a PERMANENT MAGNET alternator . . . if
> it's spinning, it's producing voltage. So in this sense,
> it's always ON and there's nothing you can do to change that.
> Many SD-8 users have noted, however, that the REGULATOR
> supplied with the SD-8 will not come alive solely on
> voltage supplied from the alternator side of the system.
> Again, an exceedingly small voltage on the system side
> of the regulator (about .6 volts) to forward bias one
> of the critical solid state devices in the regulator
> would kick-start the regulator.
>
> The notion of being "always ON" or "ON-OFF under
> panel control" does not have the same meaning for the
> SD-8 system as for it's bigger generator/alternator
> cousins. However, given the special duty assigned to
> the SD-8 in a Z-13 installation, it's not an unreasonable
> design goal to have the system become useful whether or
> not there is a battery present.
>
> Earlier discussions about the quality of SD-8 power
> sans battery suggests that a "self-excitation" feature
> is useful. I've suggested that B&C pursue this as a
> product improvement but until that happens, Z-25 is
> the way to make it happen.
>
>
>> Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the
>> engine is turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always
>> on-line?
>
>
> It's not "on line" until a connection exists between
> the regulator output and the bus. There are many systems
> in aircraft that operate similarly. A number of generator
> installations on turbine aircraft can be taken "off line"
> by opening the reverse current control contactor . . . the
> generator is still up and running, producing whatever voltage
> the regulator commands . . . but no utilization of that
> energy can be made until the contactor is closed. This is
> how the SD-8 operates under the Z-13 architecture.
>
> Know that if you pre-flight the SD-8, the first time you
> turn it on after the engine is started, it will come alive
> and remain alive as long as it's being turned by the engine.
> The only thing that the Z-25 mod gets you is a cold startup
> sans battery.
>
>>
>>
>> Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed?
>
>
> Sure. Put the relay in series with the AC output from
> the alternator . . . but then a second set of contacts
> on the same relay would be used to keep a small amount
> of bias current from constantly loading the battery when
> the airplane is parked. You double the probability of
> relay failure while adding no operational value for
> having done so. Hence the configuration of Z-13 as you
> see it whether or not modified per Z-25.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
>
>I'm not sure that I'd want self excitation for my system.
What's the down-side for having it?
>Also FWIW I now believe that the 20,000 uF capacitor on the output of the
>PM alternator regulator may be a really good idea.
The value of this capacitor is to enable operations of the
SD-8 sans battery . . . but if you don't have a battery -or-
the capacitor -or- self excitation feature, then the SD-8
is at risk to being "stalled" if inadvertently overloaded
during alternator-only ops.
>I omitted it because I hard wired the output to an 8AH battery
>(without a battery contactor) and figured that would suffice.
I think the SD-8 regulator has places a small load (milliamps)
on any power source that is not disconnected during power down.
>There was no apparent electrical noise from the alternator. As mentioned
>recently though, I started the engine once with a completely dead battery.
>I closed the crossfeed contactor (Z-14 architecture) and observed the
>alternator charging. Upon opening the crossfeed contactor, the OVM module
>immediately tripped and cut power to the input of the regulator. I did
>that a couple of times.
>
>Problem was that the John Deere regulator was now failed in the full on
>mode. I surmise that the totally dead battery was ineffective at absorbing
>any current and keeping the voltage down and that the regulator fried
>itself during the few milliseconds that it took for the OVM to trip. The
>crossfeed autocloses during cranking and I had previously closed it with
>the engine running with no problems. Actually the system also ran fine
>with the failed VR and the crossfeed closed as long as system loads were
>kept above the 20 amp output of the PM alternator.
>
>I replaced the regulator but being hard headed I have not added a
>capacitor. I now know enough not to bring the alternator on line with a
>dead battery. However I did add some transorbs which might limit the
>voltage for the short period until the OVM trips if I should be silly
>enough to accidentally do somethng similar again.
Contrary to the fondest wishes of several past participants,
the lowly Transorb is not suited for soaking up the overflow
from a runaway alternator . . . and without carefully crafted
source impedance control, they're not suited for corralling
a load-dump event either. I've had great success using them
to stand off indirect effects of lightning . . . but energies
in normal and abnormal events from engine driven power sources
are just not something we can reasonably expect a Transorb
to handle.
>I didn't learn much from an autopsy on the VR other than it uses output
>semiconductors that appear to be fabricated on a copper plate instead of
>off the shelf devices. The circuit board used surface mount devices and I
>gave up on drawing a circuit diagram. I would like to find a reasonably
>simple circuit for a homemade replacement VR. I don't really have the time
>to properly test a completely new design.
Here's a schematic that is quite common to
all PM alternator regulators.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_Schematic.jpg
This design looks like it's free of power-down leakage.
As long as the Q4eb, Z1, D6 pathway is out of conduction,
it doesn't appear that anything would be turned on. There
are no voltage dividers across the battery lead either.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | another dark and stormy night story |
http://www.aopa.org/pilot/never_again/2006/na0610.html
Once again they're talking about how dangerous it is when the lights go
out, but there's no mention of why they did or how to keep it from
happening.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
>
> snip
>> There was no apparent electrical noise from the alternator. As
>> mentioned recently though, I started the engine once with a
>> completely dead battery. I closed the crossfeed contactor (Z-14
>> architecture) and observed the alternator charging. Upon opening the
>> crossfeed contactor, the OVM module immediately tripped and cut power
>> to the input of the regulator. I did that a couple of times.
>>
>> Problem was that the John Deere regulator was now failed in the full
>> on mode. I surmise that the totally dead battery was ineffective at
>> absorbing any current and keeping the voltage down and that the
>> regulator fried itself during the few milliseconds that it took for
>> the OVM to trip. The crossfeed autocloses during cranking and I had
>> previously closed it with the engine running with no problems.
>> Actually the system also ran fine with the failed VR and the
>> crossfeed closed as long as system loads were kept above the 20 amp
>> output of the PM alternator.
>>
>> I replaced the regulator but being hard headed I have not added a
>> capacitor. I now know enough not to bring the alternator on line
>> with a dead battery. However I did add some transorbs which might
>> limit the voltage for the short period until the OVM trips if I
>> should be silly enough to accidentally do somethng similar again.
>
>
> Contrary to the fondest wishes of several past participants,
> the lowly Transorb is not suited for soaking up the overflow
> from a runaway alternator . . . and without carefully crafted
> source impedance control, they're not suited for corralling
> a load-dump event either. I've had great success using them
> to stand off indirect effects of lightning . . . but energies
> in normal and abnormal events from engine driven power sources
> are just not something we can reasonably expect a Transorb
> to handle.
>
Understood. But transorbs might have kept the voltage reasonble for the
few milliseconds that it took for the OVM to trip as mentioned in the
top paragraph. The dead battery did not limit the voltage or the OVM
would not have tripped. A large capacitor might have helped a bit. I
think transorbs might help in this situation. The J.D. regulator goes
for $100. in my neighborhood.
> snip
>
> Here's a schematic that is quite common to
> all PM alternator regulators.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_Schematic.jpg
>
>
> This design looks like it's free of power-down leakage.
> As long as the Q4eb, Z1, D6 pathway is out of conduction,
> it doesn't appear that anything would be turned on. There
> are no voltage dividers across the battery lead either.
>
> Bob . . .
Gee if they had only put component values on that schematic ;)
Ken L.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Collin Campbell" <collinc(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | charging system problems |
I am still trying to figure out the glitch in my charging system. I
wrote about this a couple of weeks ago, I am new to this group, haven't
figured out how to include all the past discussion without retyping it
all over again. I beg your patience.
To rehash the problem. Everything seems to work fine until five or so
minuites into the flight when the system begins to discharge. I can
reset the system by recycling the field breaker and everything goes back
to normal, for another few minutes. After I recycle the system the
second time, I can continue the rest of the flight with no problems.
The bus voltage is a constant 14.5 volts. I am using a Van's 35 amp
alt, VR-371 regulator, Electronics Int. VA-1 guage installed in the alt.
lead. This is a "Bearhawk" aircraft. (tubing fuselage, metal wings) I
didn't discover this group until I had already wired the plane so I know
I have done some things that I would do differently if I had it to do
over again. My battery (Odyssey 680) is grounded to the engine mount.
Engine is grounded to the mount via a bolt on the oil sump. I know, I
know... there is a better way, just that I copied what I saw on
numerous other planes. My wiring diagram is one that I borrowed from
one of Tony Bengelis' books.
Still hoping someone out there can shed some light on this..
Collin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
Good evening folks,
Hugo with an RV10 ,actually 1300 punds of aluminum wich soon or later will be an
rv10,
Question I install a VOR-glideslope antenna at the top of the rudder,the cable
finish at the mid section ,I suppose I need a diplexer in order to use both features,the
cable split at mid fuse ,asking,will be OK ,in your opinion connect
with male -female at the mid section an install the splitter under the panel,or
use the juncion there to instal the diplexer,I wonder if will be any kind
of lose in the reception.
thanks for the help.
Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: charging system problems |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hello Collin,
I am not clear how you know that the system is "discharging".. If the bus
voltage is solid at 14.5V, then the alternator is regulating, and keeping
up with system demands. Or, what's the bus voltage during the discharge?
If you go to the archive search engine:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/ws_script.cgi
And enter "Collin", you can see everything you have posted to the
Aeroelectric list (be sure to select that Archive as the thing to
search)..
Regards,
Matt-
> I am still trying to figure out the glitch in my charging system. I wrote
> about this a couple of weeks ago, I am new to this group, haven't figured
> out how to include all the past discussion without retyping it all over
> again. I beg your patience.
>
> To rehash the problem. Everything seems to work fine until five or so
> minuites into the flight when the system begins to discharge. I can reset
> the system by recycling the field breaker and everything goes back to
> normal, for another few minutes. After I recycle the system the second
> time, I can continue the rest of the flight with no problems. The bus
> voltage is a constant 14.5 volts. I am using a Van's 35 amp alt, VR-371
> regulator, Electronics Int. VA-1 guage installed in the alt. lead. This
> is a "Bearhawk" aircraft. (tubing fuselage, metal wings) I didn't
> discover this group until I had already wired the plane so I know I have
> done some things that I would do differently if I had it to do over again.
> My battery (Odyssey 680) is grounded to the engine mount. Engine is
> grounded to the mount via a bolt on the oil sump. I know, I know... there
> is a better way, just that I copied what I saw on numerous other planes.
> My wiring diagram is one that I borrowed from one of Tony Bengelis' books.
>
> Still hoping someone out there can shed some light on this..
>
> Collin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Collin Campbell" <collinc(at)alltel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: charging system problems |
Matt,
Ok, I forgot to mention that the discharge light comes on. The amp reading
goes to "0" and the voltage drops to 12.8 (a fully charged battery)
Thanks for the reply
Collin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: charging system problems
>
>
> Hello Collin,
>
> I am not clear how you know that the system is "discharging".. If the bus
> voltage is solid at 14.5V, then the alternator is regulating, and keeping
> up with system demands. Or, what's the bus voltage during the discharge?
>
> If you go to the archive search engine:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/searching/ws_script.cgi
>
> And enter "Collin", you can see everything you have posted to the
> Aeroelectric list (be sure to select that Archive as the thing to
> search)..
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>> I am still trying to figure out the glitch in my charging system. I
>> wrote
>> about this a couple of weeks ago, I am new to this group, haven't figured
>> out how to include all the past discussion without retyping it all over
>> again. I beg your patience.
>>
>> To rehash the problem. Everything seems to work fine until five or so
>> minuites into the flight when the system begins to discharge. I can
>> reset
>> the system by recycling the field breaker and everything goes back to
>> normal, for another few minutes. After I recycle the system the second
>> time, I can continue the rest of the flight with no problems. The bus
>> voltage is a constant 14.5 volts. I am using a Van's 35 amp alt, VR-371
>> regulator, Electronics Int. VA-1 guage installed in the alt. lead. This
>> is a "Bearhawk" aircraft. (tubing fuselage, metal wings) I didn't
>> discover this group until I had already wired the plane so I know I have
>> done some things that I would do differently if I had it to do over
>> again.
>> My battery (Odyssey 680) is grounded to the engine mount. Engine is
>> grounded to the mount via a bolt on the oil sump. I know, I know...
>> there
>> is a better way, just that I copied what I saw on numerous other planes.
>> My wiring diagram is one that I borrowed from one of Tony Bengelis'
>> books.
>>
>> Still hoping someone out there can shed some light on this..
>>
>> Collin
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Garforth" <richard(at)hawk.flyer.co.uk> |
| Subject: | RV10 VOR/GS Antenna |
Hugo,
I found that the standard Commant antenna will not fit on the fin. The
rudder movement is too great and hits the dipoles. Several RV10s I saw
at Osh had them fitted to the bottom rear fuselage. Some GA a/craft have
them fitted on the fin 'back to front' to provide clearance.
Normal practice is to position the diplexer with the Nav equipment.
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option |
>>
>> Here's a schematic that is quite common to
>> all PM alternator regulators.
>>
>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_Schematic.jpg
>>
>>
>> This design looks like it's free of power-down leakage.
>> As long as the Q4eb, Z1, D6 pathway is out of conduction,
>> it doesn't appear that anything would be turned on. There
>> are no voltage dividers across the battery lead either.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Gee if they had only put component values on that schematic ;)
>Ken L.
This circuit is not one that would benefit much
from gain and bias optimization. I'll bet if
you used 2N3906 for all transistors, 1K for
all resistors, 1N5243 for zener, and 1N400x
for small diodes, it would come up and run
just fine.
There are a variety of options for SCR's and
power diodes in the rectifier. SCR's should be
selected to trigger on less than 10ma else
value of R3 needs reduction accordingly.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: rv10 antennas |
>
>Good evening folks,
>Hugo with an RV10 ,actually 1300 punds of aluminum wich soon or later will
>be an rv10,
>Question I install a VOR-glideslope antenna at the top of the rudder,the
>cable finish at the mid section ,I suppose I need a diplexer in order to
>use both features,the cable split at mid fuse ,asking,will be OK ,in your
>opinion connect with male -female at the mid section an install the
>splitter under the panel,or use the juncion there to instal the
>diplexer,I wonder if will be any kind of lose in the reception.
>thanks for the help.
Passive antenna splitters or diplexers are
not something for nothing devices. For every
pico-watt of energy entering one port, the sum
of energies leaving the other ports is less than
a pico-watt. Yes, there are losses in these devices
but few GA users would find them to be objectionable
or even observable without aid from pretty
sophisticated test equipment. We use them in the
biz jets a lot.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
Hi List,
I followed the Z-11 diagram for my simple system & see that the starter
contactor has a 'firewall ground'. To me, that means it grounds through the
stainless steel firewall it is mounted on. Indeed, that is what my ohmeter
says & I'm confident it will perform fine (As I'm not flying yet & haven't
quite fired up the engine yet, I haven't actually seen the contactor work)
However, this seems to conflict with the single point ground idea basic to
Bob's philosophy. My starter contactor is the only component of my system
without a dedicated wire running to the forest of ground tabs.
Any experienced advice or opinions on this?
I've been absent the list for a long time & couldn't find anything on this
in the archives. Hope you haven't already gone over it a hundred times.
Thanks,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: charging system problems |
>
>
>Matt,
>
>Ok, I forgot to mention that the discharge light comes on. The amp
>reading goes to "0" and the voltage drops to 12.8 (a fully charged battery)
>
>Thanks for the reply
>
>Collin
Given that the alternator in question is externally regulatred,
the system lends itself to rudimentary trouble shooting techniques.
I believe I referred you to Note 8 on page Z-8 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
as a guide for chasing out the bugs. It would be useful
to know what field voltage the alternator is seeing during
a failure. This means that you need to bring a wire into
the cockpit from the alternator's field terminal and watch
it with a voltmeter so you can observe and report the
readings during normal and failed operations.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: another dark and stormy night story |
>
>http://www.aopa.org/pilot/never_again/2006/na0610.html
>
>Once again they're talking about how dangerous it is when the lights go
>out, but there's no mention of why they did or how to keep it from
>happening.
>
>Pax,
>
>Ed Holyoke
It's sad that flagship publications like AOPA Pilot,
Sport Aviation, etc. are so disconnected from the
real mission (journalism and teaching) that so little
of what they publish is truly useful. It's even sadder
that folks who read the articles believe they're
getting the best-we-know-how-to-do advice simply
because of the publication's prestige.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | anti-rotation washer |
Beats the devil outta me, Sarge.
(a) The search button is `way at the bottom, after scanning a bunch of lines
(b) When poked, filled with WASHERS, it revealed 17 items, most of which
had no washers except if one is to read each one in order and search by
eyeball for an applicable WASHER,
(c) Thass when I gave up.
Fetch me the dictionary.
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
>
>Hi List,
>
>I followed the Z-11 diagram for my simple system & see that the starter
>contactor has a 'firewall ground'. To me, that means it grounds through
>the stainless steel firewall it is mounted on. Indeed, that is what my
>ohmeter says & I'm confident it will perform fine (As I'm not flying yet &
>haven't quite fired up the engine yet, I haven't actually seen the
>contactor work)
>However, this seems to conflict with the single point ground idea basic to
>Bob's philosophy. My starter contactor is the only component of my system
>without a dedicated wire running to the forest of ground tabs.
>
>Any experienced advice or opinions on this?
>
>I've been absent the list for a long time & couldn't find anything on this
>in the archives. Hope you haven't already gone over it a hundred times.
The commonly utilized automotive starter contactors
do get a ground for the coil through the base provided
that the firewall sheet is metallic and your system
has a firewall ground stud and forest-of-tabs for
other systems.
This is fine as installed. The contactor is VERY
intermittent duty and is neither a potential victim
nor potential antagonist for ground-loop coupled
noises. I guess I should add "starter contactors" to
the list of items that integrate nicely into airplanes
using LOCAL grounds.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
>
>
>> The commonly utilized automotive starter contactors
>> do get a ground for the coil through the base provided
>> that the firewall sheet is metallic and your system
>> has a firewall ground stud and forest-of-tabs for
>> other systems.
>
>Sorry I may have missed it, but did we ever get to the bottom of why the
>"newer" B&C battery contactors have rubber boots on the mounting tabs? If
>we have that model, should we remove the boots, or otherwise ground the
>contactor?
Never did see any documents or conversation that
explained why the boots were added and/or considered
a good thing to do under any circumstances. I'm
thinking we're on firm ground to recommend removal
for installation under the prevailing philosophy.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: anti-rotation washer |
>
>Beats the devil outta me, Sarge.
>(a) The search button is `way at the bottom, after scanning a bunch of lines
>(b) When poked, filled with WASHERS, it revealed 17 items, most of which
>had no washers except if one is to read each one in order and search by
>eyeball for an applicable WASHER,
>(c) Thass when I gave up.
>Fetch me the dictionary.
>Ferg Kyle
>Europa A064 914 Classic
I presume you're looking for keyway washers for the
standard toggle switch. B&C has them listed in their
"all parts" order form at:
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-order/order?X358218
Do a an EDIT_Find-in-this-Page search for S700KW
and it will jump to the line item where you can enter
a quantity in their shopping cart utility.
This is a good page to access for B&C. I believe it's a
single url that lists every line item available for sale
irrespective of where it appears in the catalog pages.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | need AOL Communicator |
| From: | philwhite9(at)aol.com |
Just had to replace a dead hard disk, and lost the AOL Communicator software that
allowed me to automatically sort AeroElectric email digests into the AeroElectric
folder. AOL no longer lists it as a download.
Anyone have a copy of the software they could send me?
Philwhite9(at)aol.com (Mazda 20B in an RV-10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | another dark and stormy night story |
Ed
They didn't mention it because they probably didn't know what to say. Lots
of unexplained things happened in the "old days" because things just weren't
understood. Trouble is there are too many 20-50 year old airplanes still
flying today in the face of newer technologies. Makes me think of all the
old patched up cars in Cuba when they could have much newer models.
One of the main reasons I am building my own is because I want something
better than 1950' technology without the unreasonably high cost of a
certified aircraft with modern technology (if one even exists). Voltmeters,
ammeters, E-buss, Engine monitors with alarms etc and knowing how to use
them makes OBAM aircraft much better in my opinion. Having the right
equipment (technology) and knowing how to use it is better than just
"noticing" that the panel lights "seem" a little dim. I know simpler is
better when all other things are considered equal, but for me, a more
"complex" machine is more "capable". I will learn the systems.
Bevan
RV7A starting canopy today (wish me luck).
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: another dark and stormy night story
-->
http://www.aopa.org/pilot/never_again/2006/na0610.html
Once again they're talking about how dangerous it is when the lights go out,
but there's no mention of why they did or how to keep it from happening.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
Or use an Archer wing-tip antenna (from Steinair & else where). Minimize the
number of connectors for best performance.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
gommone7(at)bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: rv10 antennas
Good evening folks,
Hugo with an RV10 ,actually 1300 punds of aluminum wich soon or later will
be an rv10,
Question I install a VOR-glideslope antenna at the top of the rudder,the
cable finish at the mid section ,I suppose I need a diplexer in order to use
both features,the cable split at mid fuse ,asking,will be OK ,in your
opinion connect with male -female at the mid section an install the splitter
under the panel,or use the juncion there to instal the diplexer,I wonder if
will be any kind of lose in the reception.
thanks for the help.
Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor?
-
>
>Sorry I may have missed it, but did we ever get to the bottom of why the
>"newer" B&C battery contactors have rubber boots on the mounting tabs? If
>we have that model, should we remove the boots, or otherwise ground the
>contactor?
Never did see any documents or conversation that
explained why the boots were added and/or considered
a good thing to do under any circumstances. I'm
thinking we're on firm ground to recommend removal
for installation under the prevailing philosophy.
Bob . . .
I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 38 Msgs - 10/02/06 |
I've just seen the Garmin GXM 30 "smart antenna" for the first time.
Apparently it supports XM radio and XM weather on "compatible" Garmin GPS
systems (396 and 496, for example). Does anyone know if it is compatible
with any of the other systems out there such as AnywhereMap or Vista or
similar? The WxWorx receiver is several times more than the GXM 30. Was
wondering if it is a suitable substitute??
Regards,
Lee...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
>
> Never did see any documents or conversation that
> explained why the boots were added and/or considered
> a good thing to do under any circumstances. I'm
> thinking we're on firm ground to recommend removal
> for installation under the prevailing philosophy.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
>stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
Hmmmm . . . I guess I've never seen them either. Got
a digital camera? Send me some pictures. I note that
B&C is still using the pictures I took.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor?
>
> Never did see any documents or conversation that
> explained why the boots were added and/or considered
> a good thing to do under any circumstances. I'm
> thinking we're on firm ground to recommend removal
> for installation under the prevailing philosophy.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
>stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
Hmmmm . . . I guess I've never seen them either. Got
a digital camera? Send me some pictures. I note that
B&C is still using the pictures I took.
Bob . . .
Will try to take some tomorrow. The contactor is mounted and I am not sure
that I can get a good enough shot to show any thing about the boot
attachment. They appear to be molded on and I think the legs were drilled
to allow the molding to form pass a through to hold them on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Sparky's misadventures conclude |
Thanks to 'lectric Bob's (and others' on the list!) help, the non functioning master
contactor problem has been solved!
Turns out that Mr. Cliplead revealed that when sparks flew, the jumper from the
BAT terminal to the little fourth terminal on the B&C contactor had burned through,
which wouldn't let electrons activate the little solenoid inside the contactor.
Installing a new jumper solved the problem!
Lesson learned...install those little rubber boots on ALL exposed "hot" terminals!
As a side note, what precipitated the problem was "weak" com radios. In an attempt
to fix that, the connections for the com antenna ground plane were checked,
leading to the sparks when the antenna connector flopped over onto the master
contactor.
Turns out THAT problem was caused by a malfunctioning relay that regulated the
access from the two com radios to a single com antenna. Both com radios had to
go back for repair. When one radio transmits directly into another through
a common antenna, bad things happen.
Another lesson learned...yeah it is nice to try to minimize the number of external
antennae on a metal airplane for esthetic and drag reasons. But the entire
point of having redundant radios to back each other up is lost when a single
point failure of the necessary relay connection between the two radios and the
single antenna can knock out all communications!
So THAT is why Sparky's Evo will be sporting TWO com antennae on the belly now!
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) |
One thing I find useful when you get bogged down in M-bus vs E-bus vs
B-bus divisions is to go flying and start turning off everything
electrical. Eventually you realize just how little you really need
to have, unless you're in IMC with ice. For instance, the turn
coordinator is sometimes presumed to be important, but in VFR, it's
just not needed at all, so it doesn't have to be sitting there on the
e-bus drawing all that current.
Also, remember in the event of an off-field emergency landing, you
want to be able to shut off your fuel pump and some other things
you've currently got wired to your battery.
Dave Morris
At 11:27 PM 10/10/2006, you wrote:
>I'm approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this
>board but forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions.
>
>I'm starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an
>RV-7, IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327),
>P800B audio panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP.
>
>I've done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do
>have a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against
>Normal Ops, Main Alt Fail, and Battery only):
... snip ...
>
>Battery: Average 4A
>
>EFIS 1 ADI
>Fuel Pump
>Starter
>EDI 4000 (Eng Monitor)
>GMA-340 (Audio)
>SL-30 (Nav)
>SL-30 (Com-Rec)
>SL-30 (Com-Tx)
>EI #1 (P-Mag)
>EI #2 (P-Mag)
>Lights - Lnd
>"Lights - Flood/Cargo -.1
> Cargo - .1
> Panel- .5A
> Cockpit - .2"
>Main Battery Contactor
>Starter Contactor
>Clock
>
>The list for the Battery buss seems extensive but my thoughts were
>that if stuck on top IFR, these items are potentially needed. Yes,
>that assumes both main and SD-8 alternator went south. The question
>is, using an SD-8, can run over 8A on the buss? Is this a valid
>distribution of components? Some of these on the Batt buss are also
>used for start (EIS) or ground ops (lights, clock). The other
>question is can I split the power leads on the SL-30 without making
>the radio inop for receive- only?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
>
> >
> > I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
> >stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
>
> Hmmmm . . . I guess I've never seen them either. Got
> a digital camera? Send me some pictures. I note that
> B&C is still using the pictures I took.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Will try to take some tomorrow. The contactor is mounted and I am not sure
>that I can get a good enough shot to show any thing about the boot
>attachment. They appear to be molded on and I think the legs were drilled
>to allow the molding to form pass a through to hold them on.
Did you get it from B&C? I'll call them tomorrow and
see if they'll send me a sample.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor |
10/15/2006
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
Hello Grant, Back when I was building my airplane with a stainless steel
firewall I had occasion to do some electical circuit checking with a multi
meter. I was getting some erratic results and eventually came to the
conclusion that there was some sort of self created insulating surface film
on the stainless steel surface.
I could get good consistent meter readings only by specifically piercing
that film with the sharp point of the meter probe.
This led me to the conclusion that just bolting my starter contactor to the
firewall may not give me the best electrical grounding connection. My
starter contactor case is grounded to the brass firewall forrest-of-tabs
through-bolt. Works great.
Maybe some electrical guru on this list can verify or dispute my findings.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge
_____________________________________
AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
Hi List,
I followed the Z-11 diagram for my simple system & see that the starter
contactor has a 'firewall ground'. To me, that means it grounds through the
stainless steel firewall it is mounted on. Indeed, that is what my ohmeter
says & I'm confident it will perform fine (As I'm not flying yet & haven't
quite fired up the engine yet, I haven't actually seen the contactor work)
However, this seems to conflict with the single point ground idea basic to
Bob's philosophy. My starter contactor is the only component of my system
without a dedicated wire running to the forest of ground tabs.
Any experienced advice or opinions on this?
I've been absent the list for a long time & couldn't find anything on this
in the archives. Hope you haven't already gone over it a hundred times.
Thanks,
Grant
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13 and |
E-Bus)
>
>One thing I find useful when you get bogged down in M-bus vs E-bus vs
>B-bus divisions is to go flying and start turning off everything
>electrical. Eventually you realize just how little you really need to
>have, unless you're in IMC with ice. For instance, the turn coordinator
>is sometimes presumed to be important, but in VFR, it's just not needed at
>all, so it doesn't have to be sitting there on the e-bus drawing all that
>current.
>
>Also, remember in the event of an off-field emergency landing, you want to
>be able to shut off your fuel pump and some other things you've currently
>got wired to your battery.
>
>Dave Morris
>
>At 11:27 PM 10/10/2006, you wrote:
>>I'm approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this board
>>but forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions.
>>
>>I'm starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an RV-7,
>>IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327), P800B audio
>>panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP.
>>
>>I've done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do have
>>a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against Normal Ops,
>>Main Alt Fail, and Battery only):
Start out supposing that you're going to put ALL the electro-
whizzies planned for your project into a nice ol' restored
but original architecture C-170. The Main bus is all you got.
Figure out if you have sized the alternator to carry the loads
under various flight conditions and still have 15A or so
headroom for battery recharging.
If you're going to have a plain-vanilla, Z-11 or an SD-8
enhanced Z-13, you figure out what gizmos are useful
for the en route mode of flight, i.e. ENDURANCE MODE.
Add up CONTINUOUS loads on these devices and then
see if you have sized the battery for ALT OUT ENDURANCE
with NO ASSIST for the design goals you've established.
Keep in mind that:
(1) battery capacity is NOT a linear function of load
vs rated capacity. The apparent capacity falls as loads
increase primarily due to internal resistance of the
battery.
(2) the BEST way to assess battery capacity to a
design goal is to CapCheck it under the en route
load determined above.
(3) if you're a Z-11 system, the what's in the battery
is all you have. Leave 25% or more of your real capacity
for approach to landing. Knowing the required real
capacity under Plan-B operations is how you size your
battery selection.
(4) if you're a Z-13 system, then the e-bus can be
loaded to the full capacity of the SD-8 while holding
100% of the battery's stored energy in reserve for
approach to landing.
E-bus means ENDURANCE-bus . . . its design goal
is to prevent an emergency by encouraging well
crafted Plan-B and preventative maintenance
programs for the properly sized battery.
Battery-Bus loads fall in two classes:
(1) things necessary to keep an electrically
dependent engine running. When you have bad
smells in the cockpit, it's useful to be able
to turn EVERYTHING off and not have the engine
quit. Don't forget to consider Battery Bus
loads in the endurance modeling described above.
(2) things useful on the ground during loading,
unloading and storage support. Clocks, utility
lighting, battery maintenance, etc.
Every item not needed for alternator-out endurance
ops for 99% of your planned flight regimes goes
on the Main-Bus. Yes, if you find yourself in bad
weather and the main alternator craps, you do have
an emergency. That's Plan-C . . . get on the ground
and or out of IMC ASAP. Plan-B numbers are irrelevant.
Keep in mind that you can always bring the main bus
back up and run anything in the airplane . . . but
now you have an emergency and Plan-C is in effect.
Rethink your distribution of loads based on this
philosophy and see what it looks like.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor |
>
>10/15/2006
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
>
>
>Hello Grant, Back when I was building my airplane with a stainless steel
>firewall I had occasion to do some electical circuit checking with a multi
>meter. I was getting some erratic results and eventually came to the
>conclusion that there was some sort of self created insulating surface
>film on the stainless steel surface.
>
>I could get good consistent meter readings only by specifically piercing
>that film with the sharp point of the meter probe.
>
>This led me to the conclusion that just bolting my starter contactor to
>the firewall may not give me the best electrical grounding connection. My
>starter contactor case is grounded to the brass firewall forrest-of-tabs
>through-bolt. Works great.
>
>Maybe some electrical guru on this list can verify or dispute my findings.
>
>OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge
Yup. Surface treatments for stainless -and- aluminums
do NOT make for good electrical connections. In the
big iron birds we "bond" electro-whizzies to the airframe
by cleaning the area around the holes (bonding brush or
scotch-bright pad on your die-grinder) and then using
fasteners capable of generating and sustaining a lot of
force. I'd recommend nothing smaller than 8-32 hardware
for attaching terminals and appliances to the airframe . . .
10-32 is really good. Use all metal locking nuts too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv7a.builder" <rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | 12 volt accesory outlet |
I am approaching one of the last electrical task on my
RV-7A. I installed a 12 volt outlet on the panel but I
would like to verify the wiring and fuse selection for
this device. The outlet came with no instructions. It
did include 3 fast-on terminals which 2 are blue and
one red. That would suggest that one of the connecting
wires would be smaller than the other 2? There are 2
tabs in the outlet that are brass in color and one tab
that is silver. Any help here would be much
appreciated. Thanks John.
__________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | electrical system for review and critique |
Apologies, Erich. You were absolutely right about sizing an ANL current
limiter for the B-lead. I just found the reference at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html, bottom of page 2 to
top of page 3. Sorry for my obtuseness.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: electrical system for review and critique
Hey again John
I checked the archives regarding your reference on the 60 amp fuse - I
dont think you are interpreting this quite right. The original post was
not really about Z-13, but a modified starter set-up that had been
suggested. Also, the MAX 60 fuse is something different than an ANL
current limiter - check out the link posted in Bob's reply from the
archives:
http://www.bussmann.com/shared/library/catalogs/Buss_Auto-Fuse_Cat.pdf
I cant provide a direct reference - probably something from the
AeroElectric FAQ files - but I still think that the ANL40 is pretty robust
fuse and is fine with the 40 amp alternator. Somebody please correct me if
Im full of it.
Erich Weaver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor?
>
> >
> > I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
> >stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
>
> Hmmmm . . . I guess I've never seen them either. Got
> a digital camera? Send me some pictures. I note that
> B&C is still using the pictures I took.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Will try to take some tomorrow. The contactor is mounted and I am not sure
>that I can get a good enough shot to show any thing about the boot
>attachment. They appear to be molded on and I think the legs were drilled
>to allow the molding to form pass a through to hold them on.
Did you get it from B&C? I'll call them tomorrow and
see if they'll send me a sample.
Bob . . .
Yes it was from B&C. I was not able to get any useful pictures today. Hope
you can come up with a way to remove the boots without damaging the
contactor.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "PIAVIS" <piavis(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | 80A Fuse on Z-13 |
Coming off the starter contactor in the Z-13 diagram, there's an 80A fuse
between the current limiter and the starter contactor. Electrical systems
are my weakness but is this an in-line fuse? If so who stocks the 80A?
Thanks,
Jim
RV-7
Almost starting to wire
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DonVS" <dsvs(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | 80A Fuse on Z-13 |
The ANL limiter is the 80A fuse.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of PIAVIS
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:10 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 80A Fuse on Z-13
Coming off the starter contactor in the Z-13 diagram, there's an 80A fuse
between the current limiter and the starter contactor. Electrical systems
are my weakness but is this an in-line fuse? If so who stocks the 80A?
Thanks,
Jim
RV-7
Almost starting to wire
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Press-to-talk switch wiring. |
I have UPS Aviation Technologies (now Garmin) SL-30 and GX-65 radio stack
with their audio panel (actually PS6000 guts and UPS AT nameplate). In the
installation drawings they show the PTT switch across two of the microphone
connections (Mic Key and return) but don't say anything about shielding or
twisting the pair. Lectric Bob's drawings show a twisted pair of wires from
the Press to Talk switch to the radios. Is there anything to be gained by
doing this if the installation drawings don't show it? I know the fields
cancel each other out in a twisted pair but if these are not twisted will
they pick up unwanted electrical noise and feed it into the Mic inputs?
I have the pilot's PTT on a Ray Allen stick grip, the wires will feed
through a common hole in the spar along with a bundle of other wires (mostly
power wires for strobe pack, taxi, landing, position lights and pitot
heater). What I would like to do is utilize the 5 conductor wire that Ray
Allan sells (for use with his Stick and Trim Servos) to connect the PTT to
the radios. The three other wires in this cable will carry discrete signals
for Ez Pilot Servo disconnect, Radio frequency flip/flop and a light that
will be used intermittently by the trim control module to display status and
faults. The Ray Allan 5 wire bundle is not shielded and the wires are
twisted but only about 1 turn for 1.5 inches of length. If I need to use
twisted pair will this work or will there be interference from the other
wires in the bundle (these wires will only have signal very intermittently)?
Will the 1 twist per 1.5 inches of length be enough to satisfy a requirement
for a twisted pair? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Last 1% of the 90% to go
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dustin Paulson" <dustinp(at)hughes.net> |
| Subject: | Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13 and |
E-Bus
Bob et all,
One of the first things every builder is told to do when designing the
electrical system for their OBAM aircraft is to determine the type of flying
they intend to do, figure out what equipment they need to comfortably fly
that way, determine the CONTINUOUS load of that equipment, and size your
bus's, wires, fuses, alternators, batteries, etc. accordingly.
It is information that seems pretty hard to come by in most manufacturers
specs, yet supposedly everyone who has designed a panel and electrical
system to support it has needed this info. Where did they get it?
It seems to me that one of the most valuable resources that could be made a
permanent yet updatable part of this list either in the FAQ's, or archives,
or somewhere, would be a list of the most commonly used equipment (I don't
think it would really be that long ) and continuous load numbers for that
equipment. I'm not saying this should necessarily be a job for you (although
your contributions would certainly be welcome), but just a have this forum
as a home for the list.
It could be a categorized list ( Nav/Coms, Coms, Transponders, MFD's,
EFIS's, T&B's etc.) and be something that subscribers could add to, and
update as they found numbers for new equipment as it hit the market, yet the
older equipment would still be there for those not using the latest, and
greatest in their plane.
Is there some place that you or anyone else on this list knows of where this
info is readily available?
Thanks for your thoughts, and any light you can shed.
Dustin Paulson
GlaStar builder
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13
> and
> E-Bus)
> If you're going to have a plain-vanilla, Z-11 or an SD-8
> enhanced Z-13, you figure out what gizmos are useful
> for the en route mode of flight, i.e. ENDURANCE MODE.
> Add up CONTINUOUS loads on these devices and then
> see if you have sized the battery for ALT OUT ENDURANCE
> with NO ASSIST for the design goals you've established.
> Rethink your distribution of loads based on this
> philosophy and see what it looks like.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: short course on bus loading |
>
>
>Bob et all,
>
>One of the first things every builder is told to do when designing the
>electrical system for their OBAM aircraft is to determine the type of
>flying they intend to do, figure out what equipment they need to
>comfortably fly that way, determine the CONTINUOUS load of that equipment,
>and size your bus's, wires, fuses, alternators, batteries, etc. accordingly.
>
>It is information that seems pretty hard to come by in most manufacturers
>specs, yet supposedly everyone who has designed a panel and electrical
>system to support it has needed this info. Where did they get it?
>
>It seems to me that one of the most valuable resources that could be made
>a permanent yet updatable part of this list either in the FAQ's, or
>archives, or somewhere, would be a list of the most commonly used
>equipment (I don't think it would really be that long ) and continuous
>load numbers for that equipment. I'm not saying this should necessarily be
>a job for you (although your contributions would certainly be welcome),
>but just a have this forum as a home for the list.
>
>It could be a categorized list ( Nav/Coms, Coms, Transponders, MFD's,
>EFIS's, T&B's etc.) and be something that subscribers could add to, and
>update as they found numbers for new equipment as it hit the market, yet
>the older equipment would still be there for those not using the latest,
>and greatest in their plane.
>
>Is there some place that you or anyone else on this list knows of where
>this info is readily available?
>
>Thanks for your thoughts, and any light you can shed.
that's been discussed. A number of members on the List
have published their load analysis data. I've posted a few
of them at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis
What you're suggesting would be a great resource
and as I recall, some folks volunteered to compile
the list . . . but it has not been discussed in some
time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Press-to-talk switch wiring. |
>
>
>I have UPS Aviation Technologies (now Garmin) SL-30 and GX-65 radio stack
>with their audio panel (actually PS6000 guts and UPS AT nameplate). In the
>installation drawings they show the PTT switch across two of the microphone
>connections (Mic Key and return) but don't say anything about shielding or
>twisting the pair. Lectric Bob's drawings show a twisted pair of wires from
>the Press to Talk switch to the radios. Is there anything to be gained by
>doing this if the installation drawings don't show it? I know the fields
>cancel each other out in a twisted pair but if these are not twisted will
>they pick up unwanted electrical noise and feed it into the Mic inputs?
>
>I have the pilot's PTT on a Ray Allen stick grip, the wires will feed
>through a common hole in the spar along with a bundle of other wires (mostly
>power wires for strobe pack, taxi, landing, position lights and pitot
>heater). What I would like to do is utilize the 5 conductor wire that Ray
>Allan sells (for use with his Stick and Trim Servos) to connect the PTT to
>the radios. The three other wires in this cable will carry discrete signals
>for Ez Pilot Servo disconnect, Radio frequency flip/flop and a light that
>will be used intermittently by the trim control module to display status and
>faults. The Ray Allan 5 wire bundle is not shielded and the wires are
>twisted but only about 1 turn for 1.5 inches of length. If I need to use
>twisted pair will this work or will there be interference from the other
>wires in the bundle (these wires will only have signal very intermittently)?
>Will the 1 twist per 1.5 inches of length be enough to satisfy a requirement
>for a twisted pair? Thanks.
There is no requirement to twist PTT wires. I often twist pairs or trios
of wires specific to a task just to keep them together and easily
identified in a wire bundle. Also, twisted wires put lower stresses
into the strands for situations where you're bringing PTT wires up
the control stick and the wires will be subject to a lot of flexing
at the bottom.
You can use the wire you've cited . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Are all active GPS antennas equilvalent? |
In a message dated 9/25/2006 12:42:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
vision0241(at)hotmail.com writes:
are all the active aviation gps antennas (trimble, king, garmin, lowrance,
etc) interchangeable?
which specificiation do i need to look at to evaluate the equivalence?
=====================
Only if you believe all men are created equal!
The difference is whether they are active or passive.
Passive does not offer any GAIN.
Active offers a built in amplifier which offers some gain. NO additional
wiring is required if you get an Active antenna.
On LONG runs of antenna coax you may want a bit of a foot-up with an antenna
with gain. What is a long run? I don't know. My Passive antenna came with
about 10 feet of coax and works well.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | New battery option |
For those of you that are using/considering a 17AH 12VDC RG battery for your
craft you might be interested in what I just found out when looking to get
another Panasonic 17AH 12VDC RG battery. Panasonic now has a 20 AH battery
that is only .22 pounds heaver at 12.56 pounds and it only costs $6.69 more.
That looks like a good deal to me. Here is the info from
http://digikey.com. DigiKey has links to the factory datasheets for these
batteries.
DigiKeyPN Mfg PN Description
Price
P174-ND LC-RD1217P BATT SEALED LEAD ACID 12V 17AH Panasonic - BSG $40.67
P231-ND LC-X1220P BATT SEALED LEAD ACID 12V 20.0AH Panasonic - BSG $47.36
Regards,
Bob Lee
N52BL KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New battery option |
Looks interesting. I think you meant to say "14.56 pounds," though.
Wouldn't you know I just ordered my third Odyssey PC-625 for the plane
last week. Maybe next time I'll try one of these.
-Stormy
On 10/16/06, Bob Lee wrote:
>
> For those of you that are using/considering a 17AH 12VDC RG battery for your
> craft you might be interested in what I just found out when looking to get
> another Panasonic 17AH 12VDC RG battery. Panasonic now has a 20 AH battery
> that is only .22 pounds heaver at 12.56 pounds and it only costs $6.69 more.
> That looks like a good deal to me. Here is the info from
> http://digikey.com. DigiKey has links to the factory datasheets for these
> batteries.
>
> DigiKeyPN Mfg PN Description
> Price
> P174-ND LC-RD1217P BATT SEALED LEAD ACID 12V 17AH Panasonic - BSG $40.67
>
> P231-ND LC-X1220P BATT SEALED LEAD ACID 12V 20.0AH Panasonic - BSG $47.36
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob Lee
> N52BL KR2
> Suwanee, GA
> 91% done only 65% to go!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New battery option |
On second thought, having just looked up the Odyssey, the Panasonic is
1.3# heavier, and its numbers don't look any better to me (except
price). Maybe I'll stick with Odyssey until something better comes
along.
(IMO, $30 is a fair price to shave 1.3# from an airframe. At that
price, I'll take 200# off, please :-)
Comments?
-Bill B
On 10/16/06, Bill Boyd wrote:
> Looks interesting. I think you meant to say "14.56 pounds," though.
>
> Wouldn't you know I just ordered my third Odyssey PC-625 for the plane
> last week. Maybe next time I'll try one of these.
>
> -Stormy
>
> On 10/16/06, Bob Lee wrote:
> >
> > For those of you that are using/considering a 17AH 12VDC RG battery for your
> > craft you might be interested in what I just found out when looking to get
> > another Panasonic 17AH 12VDC RG battery. Panasonic now has a 20 AH battery
> > that is only .22 pounds heaver at 12.56 pounds and it only costs $6.69 more.
> > That looks like a good deal to me. Here is the info from
> > http://digikey.com. DigiKey has links to the factory datasheets for these
> > batteries.
> >
> > DigiKeyPN Mfg PN Description
> > Price
> > P174-ND LC-RD1217P BATT SEALED LEAD ACID 12V 17AH Panasonic - BSG $40.67
> >
> > P231-ND LC-X1220P BATT SEALED LEAD ACID 12V 20.0AH Panasonic - BSG $47.36
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bob Lee
> > N52BL KR2
> > Suwanee, GA
> > 91% done only 65% to go!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 12 volt accesory outlet |
In a message dated 10/15/2006 5:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com writes:
I am approaching one of the last electrical task on my
RV-7A. I installed a 12 volt outlet on the panel but I
would like to verify the wiring and fuse selection for
this device. The outlet came with no instructions. It
did include 3 fast-on terminals which 2 are blue and
one red. That would suggest that one of the connecting
wires would be smaller than the other 2? There are 2
tabs in the outlet that are brass in color and one tab
that is silver. Any help here would be much
appreciated. Thanks John.
===========================
John:
Not Enough Good Information (N.E.G.I.)
I'm guessing ... The "outlet" is a cigarette lighter jack???
Since you have three wires:
One is for an internal light.
One is B+
One is GND
The center is B+
The case is GND
And you will have to play with it. To find what the third one is. Again ...
Guessing it is a light.
The fuse goes on the B+
I would use a 10 Amp Fuse / CB MAX.
Wire size 14 AWG Mil Spec of course.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13 |
and E-Bus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dustin Paulson" <dustinp(at)hughes.net>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13
and E-Bus
>
>
>
> Bob et all,
>
> One of the first things every builder is told to do when designing the
> electrical system for their OBAM aircraft is to determine the type of
> flying they intend to do, figure out what equipment they need to
> comfortably fly that way, determine the CONTINUOUS load of that equipment,
> and size your bus's, wires, fuses, alternators, batteries, etc.
> accordingly.
>
> It is information that seems pretty hard to come by in most manufacturers
> specs, yet supposedly everyone who has designed a panel and electrical
> system to support it has needed this info. Where did they get it?
>
> It seems to me that one of the most valuable resources that could be made
> a permanent yet updatable part of this list either in the FAQ's, or
> archives, or somewhere, would be a list of the most commonly used
> equipment (I don't think it would really be that long ) and continuous
> load numbers for that equipment. I'm not saying this should necessarily be
> a job for you (although your contributions would certainly be welcome),
> but just a have this forum as a home for the list.
>
> It could be a categorized list ( Nav/Coms, Coms, Transponders, MFD's,
> EFIS's, T&B's etc.) and be something that subscribers could add to, and
> update as they found numbers for new equipment as it hit the market, yet
> the older equipment would still be there for those not using the latest,
> and greatest in their plane.
>
> Is there some place that you or anyone else on this list knows of where
> this info is readily available?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts, and any light you can shed.
>
> Dustin Paulson
> GlaStar builder
>
>
>> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on
>> Z-13 and
>> E-Bus)
>> If you're going to have a plain-vanilla, Z-11 or an SD-8
October 02, 2006 - October 16, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gf