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>> enhanced Z-13, you figure out what gizmos are useful >> for the en route mode of flight, i.e. ENDURANCE MODE. >> Add up CONTINUOUS loads on these devices and then >> see if you have sized the battery for ALT OUT ENDURANCE >> with NO ASSIST for the design goals you've established. >> Rethink your distribution of loads based on this >> philosophy and see what it looks like. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> > > > -- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 16, 2006
From: "rv7a.builder" <rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 12 volt accesory outlet
Thanks Barry....No light involved but I will get the meter out and play with it to verify the 3 leads. Yes, it is a cigarette style receptcle that is marked 12V. Thanks for the help. John --- FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/15/2006 5:55:20 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com writes: > I am approaching one of the last electrical task on > my > RV-7A. I installed a 12 volt outlet on the panel but > I > would like to verify the wiring and fuse selection > for > this device. The outlet came with no instructions. > It > did include 3 fast-on terminals which 2 are blue and > one red. That would suggest that one of the > connecting > wires would be smaller than the other 2? There are 2 > tabs in the outlet that are brass in color and one > tab > that is silver. Any help here would be much > appreciated. Thanks John. > =========================== > John: > > Not Enough Good Information (N.E.G.I.) > > I'm guessing ... The "outlet" is a cigarette lighter > jack??? > Since you have three wires: > One is for an internal light. > One is B+ > One is GND > > The center is B+ > The case is GND > And you will have to play with it. To find what the > third one is. Again ... > Guessing it is a light. > > The fuse goes on the B+ > I would use a 10 Amp Fuse / CB MAX. > Wire size 14 AWG Mil Spec of course. > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second > time, kick them the third > time." > Yamashiada > __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 16, 2006
From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 16, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: SNIMTA_SPAM Re
My Hypervox intercom has a music input. I just installed the appropriate sized jack, and the iPod works great, running on its own power. (Of course you don't need the usual RF transmitter if you just feed the audio into the music input of your intercom.) Dave Morris At 05:47 PM 10/16/2006, you wrote: > >Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some >consideration, it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the >way of cassette & video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an >IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a >little looking on Apples web-site and didn't find an automobile >type/docking station. The preference would be to install it so that >it doesn't have to run solely off it's own internal batteries. With >the form factor of the ipod being so small, it could be mounted >almost anywhere and not necessarily on the panel itself. Surely >somebody has done this? > >Deems Davis # 406 >Panel/Finishing >http://deemsrv10.com/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com>
Subject: New battery option
Date: Oct 16, 2006
Bill B wrote: "On second thought, having just looked up the Odyssey, the Panasonic is 1.3# heavier, and its numbers don't look any better to me (except price). Maybe I'll stick with Odyssey until something better comes along." Bill I just googled odyssey batteries and I could not find a link to the factory data sheets. Do you have a link where I could find the data sheets? I would like to see the discharge graphs to figure my endurance bus time. My thought is to only spend the extra $$ to save 1.3 pounds after it is flying. Right now saving $30 is smart because there are plenty of other things I need to buy to finish my bird. The real question is can you get a better (cheeper, longer running at my e-bus load) 20AH battery from Odyssey than Panasonic? Regards, Bob Lee N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 91% done only 65% to go! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 16, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf On 10/16/06, Bob Lee wrote: > > Bill B wrote: > > "On second thought, having just looked up the Odyssey, the Panasonic is > 1.3# heavier, and its numbers don't look any better to me (except > price). Maybe I'll stick with Odyssey until something better comes > along." > > Bill I just googled odyssey batteries and I could not find a link to the > factory data sheets. Do you have a link where I could find the data sheets? > I would like to see the discharge graphs to figure my endurance bus time. > My thought is to only spend the extra $$ to save 1.3 pounds after it is > flying. Right now saving $30 is smart because there are plenty of other > things I need to buy to finish my bird. The real question is can you get a > better (cheeper, longer running at my e-bus load) 20AH battery from Odyssey > than Panasonic? > > Regards, > > Bob Lee > N52BL KR2 > Suwanee, GA > 91% done only 65% to go! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky)
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
Date: Oct 17, 2006
If you haven't yet, stop and think that it might just be more convenient and better solution afterall to just buy headsets with input plugs and let everyone listen to the music they want, at the volume they want and to not listen to anything if they don't want, etc. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> > > Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it > looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video > tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 > player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site > and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The preference > would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's > own internal batteries. With the form factor of the ipod being so > small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not necessarily on the > panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? > > Deems Davis # 406 > Panel/Finishing > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > >
If you haven't yet, stop and think that it might just be more convenient and better solution afterall to just buy headsets with input plugs and let everyone listen to the music they want, at the volume they want and to not listen to anything if they don't want, etc.

> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis
>
> Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it
> looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video
> tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3
> player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site
> and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The preference
> would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's
> own internal batteries. With the form factor of the ipod being so
> small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not necessarily on the
> panel itself. Surely somebody has done this?
>
> Dee ms Dav -====

________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: New battery option
Date: Oct 16, 2006
Just a heads up for those of you who are building a RV7A with a light battery up front. I have an 0-360 with a Sensenich prop and I just did the w&b calculations. It seem like planes with this configuration are very light in the front. For instance if I have 2 180 lb people up front and 100 lb luggage in the back, I would be out of the envelope in a low fuel situation. It seems like if any of you are in the position of still choosing the battery type, go with a full size heavy battery in front of the firewall. Final inspection soon. Franz Fux Operations Manager Last Frontier Heliskiing www.lastfrontierheli.com phone: 1 250 558-7980 Box 1118 Vernon, BC V1T 6N4 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Lee Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 5:07 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New battery option Bill B wrote: "On second thought, having just looked up the Odyssey, the Panasonic is 1.3# heavier, and its numbers don't look any better to me (except price). Maybe I'll stick with Odyssey until something better comes along." Bill I just googled odyssey batteries and I could not find a link to the factory data sheets. Do you have a link where I could find the data sheets? I would like to see the discharge graphs to figure my endurance bus time. My thought is to only spend the extra $$ to save 1.3 pounds after it is flying. Right now saving $30 is smart because there are plenty of other things I need to buy to finish my bird. The real question is can you get a better (cheeper, longer running at my e-bus load) 20AH battery from Odyssey than Panasonic? Regards, Bob Lee N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 91% done only 65% to go! -- 10/14/2006 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DBerelsman(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 16, 2006
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- one solution...
I like the answer "luckymacy" just posted (using separate audio for each listener) But... if that does not appeal to you... here is a less than elegant .. but cheap and workable... idea Belkin makes a combo 12vdc charger / audio out adapter. About $30 On one end this is a normal 12 v male lighter plug.. with a stereo mini socket in its side ... on the other end is a flat Ipod connector. Audio is routed out of the Ipod .. thru the cable... into the stereo mini plug .. from there into your aircraft intercom. Granted... with the size of the lighter plug ... with a stereo mini plug sticking out the side.. the whole thing is large and an unfortunate tangle of wires. One solution is to neatly bury all the cords and plugs behind the panel ... just bringing out the Ipod power/audio output connector which neatly plugs into the bottom of the Ipod. You now have a connection for stereo audio out and the 12vdc will constantly power the Ipod. One other thing.... I love the Ipod.. but... if you want to do anything other than "set and forget" ... ie: playing a library of various music - then the Ipod will need to be close so you can see and fiddle with it... this will most certainly be a distraction to your flying. Be careful what you wish for.... David Berelsman Wittman Tailwind ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: TT ADI Wiring
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Those of you that have installed a TT ADI. Did you wire it through a switch or straight to the bus. Just wondering if it needs to be protected while cranking the engine. Thanks Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: E-bus Operations With SD-8
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Gents: How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and the SD-8 carries the E-bus load? I'm planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics bus which would draw a continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an up-to-2-amp load (the PDA running a moving map) and let it run on its own battery for a couple hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder (~2 amps) if battery charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how would I know? By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? I'm not planning to have an ammeter. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: TT ADI Wiring
Hi Chris, I would still go for an on/off switch, except if you have CB's. When the AP goes nuts you still would need a switch/CB to switch it off in worst case. I know of one person where this happened and the momentarily switch did not work (the AP head was defect). br Werner Chris Byrne wrote: > >Those of you that have installed a TT ADI. >Did you wire it through a switch or straight to the bus. >Just wondering if it needs to be protected while cranking the engine. > >Thanks >Chris Byrne >SYDNEY > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com>
Subject: New battery option
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Bill, Thanks for the link (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge charistics to the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery out performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? Regards, Bob Lee N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 91% done only 65% to go! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Yes, I've done it! (If I can, anyone can) I have an Ipod Mini running off ship's power, wired into my flightcom 403 intercom. I had a difficult time finding the info & equipment (not all in one place), but finally got it done. I'm not flying yet, but have operated the system & listened to the music through my headphones. As far as accessories, I will have to look up where/what I got later, but a google search for IPOD accessories yields many hits. You can find chargers as well as connections to hook into car stereo systems. Not too expensive. I got a charger, chopped the cigarette lighter off it & wired it straight to my main bus. I believe most intercoms have a pin labeled aux in or music in or something like that. I put the output there & voila! From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? If you haven't yet, stop and think that it might just be more convenient and better solution afterall to just buy headsets with input plugs and let everyone listen to the music they want, at the volume they want and to not listen to anything if they don't want, etc. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> > >Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it >looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video >tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 player >with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site and didn't >find an automobile type/docking station. The preference would be to install >it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's own internal batteries. >With the form factor of the ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost >anywhere and not necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done >this? > >Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
Bob... A quick search on Google brought this up: www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625 As far as I could see, in my few seconds of searching, this was the lowest price...other distributors Google found went as high as slightly over $100... Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Lee wrote: > > Bill, > > Thanks for the link (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). > As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge charistics to > the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery out > performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? > > Regards, > > Bob Lee > N52BL KR2 > Suwanee, GA > 91% done only 65% to go! > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
batteriesareus.com is who I dealt with. I think it was 74.50 shipped, but I've actually misplaced the paperwork at the moment. -Bill B On 10/17/06, Harley wrote: > > Bob... > > A quick search on Google brought this up: > > www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625 > > As far as I could see, in my few seconds of searching, this was the lowest > price...other distributors Google found went as high as slightly over > $100... > > Harley Dixon > ________________________________ > > > Bob Lee wrote: > > Bill, > > Thanks for the link > (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). > As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge charistics to > the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery out > performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? > > Regards, > > Bob Lee > N52BL KR2 > Suwanee, GA > 91% done only 65% to go! > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
Deems Davis wrote: > > Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, > it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & > video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like > MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples > web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The > preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run > solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the > ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not > necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? Install a mini-DIN jack off of your intercom, and you can plug in whatever next years format might be. Lock yourself into the Ipod, and you have the same issue that you're facing now with tapes and CDs. Keep the interface generic. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
Morning, Bill.. Just checked there (www.batteriesareus.com) and the battery price is indeed $74.50...and free shipping... Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Boyd wrote: > > > batteriesareus.com is who I dealt with. I think it was 74.50 shipped, > but I've actually misplaced the paperwork at the moment. > > -Bill B > > On 10/17/06, Harley wrote: >> >> Bob... >> >> A quick search on Google brought this up: >> >> www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625 >> >> As far as I could see, in my few seconds of searching, this was the >> lowest >> price...other distributors Google found went as high as slightly over >> $100... >> >> Harley Dixon >> ________________________________ >> >> >> Bob Lee wrote: >> >> Bill, >> >> Thanks for the link >> (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). >> As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge >> charistics to >> the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery >> out >> performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. >> >> So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? >> >> Regards, >> >> Bob Lee >> N52BL KR2 >> Suwanee, GA >> 91% done only 65% to go! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8
>Gents: > > >How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG >battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and >the SD-8 carries the E-bus load? "Nearly fully charged" is un-quantified . . . so a quantified answer is not possible. > I m planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics bus which would draw a > continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an up-to-2-amp load (the PDA > running a moving map) and let it run on its own battery for a couple > hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder (~2 amps) if battery > charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how would I know? Consider this about alternator and battery behavior: "Overloaded" alternators will not put out power at a regulated voltage . . . as the current demands rise to exceed the alternator's rating, the output voltage will sag. The current that a battery draws is strongly influenced by bus voltage while the current that appliances draw is roughly proportional to bus voltage. This means that if you "overload" the alternator with a combination of running and battery-recharge loads, the voltage will sag and transfer of power will favor of the running loads. Starting an engine takes but a few percent of a battery's capacity. Likelihood that you're going to have a seriously discharged battery battery by the time you launch is low. If the battery is still wanting to take in energy from a 14.2 volt bus and your main alternator quits, a 6A running load will still leave 2A to top off the battery but in no case is the operation of running loads compromised because the battery is not topped off. > By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? The e-bus fuse protects that wire ONLY. If your system is properly designed, that fuse will NEVER open based on the combination of battery/alternator/running loads. > I m not planning to have an ammeter. That's what load analysis is all about. KNOW what the loads are for Plan-A and Plan-B and in some cases Plan-C. Electrical system failure management in flight based on readings taken from panel instruments is not good design, planning or maintenance. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
Not any help on the wiring, but AirGizmos does make a dock that fits into the panel for an ipod. <http://www.airgizmos.com/prod/pd3/index.asp> Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 Ernest Christley wrote: > > > Deems Davis wrote: > >> >> >> Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, >> it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & >> video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like >> MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples >> web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The >> preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run >> solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the >> ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not >> necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? > > Install a mini-DIN jack off of your intercom, and you can plug in > whatever next years format might be. > > Lock yourself into the Ipod, and you have the same issue that you're > facing now with tapes and CDs. Keep the interface generic. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Subject: Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I don't see this as a big concern.. I think the system behavior will be good with the loads and supplies you are talking about. If the main alternator fails, the SD8 will supply enough power to run your e-bus plus 2A. If the battery is really flat, the bus voltage may sag from the regulated voltage (14.5V) to no lower than about 13.5V. It won't go lower than that because the battery charge current will drop off steeply as the bus voltage sags below 14.5V, and would probably be zero if the bus sags to 13V. The battery will take whatever excess charging energy is available from the SD-8, but no more. And, if the non-battery-charging bus loads rise above the output of the SD-8, any charge left in the battery will keep the bus voltage from sagging further. As Bob has suggested in the past, a voltmeter is a great tool in this kind of system.. If your goal is to be able to run until you're out of gas, reduce electrical loads until the bus voltage rises above 12.5 (indicating that you aren't depleting the battery). You could then be confident that the SD-8 was keeping up. Regards, Matt- > Gents: > > > How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG > battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and > the > SD-8 carries the E-bus load? I'm planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics > bus which would draw a continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an > up-to-2-amp load (the PDA running a moving map) and let it run on its own > battery for a couple hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder > (~2 amps) if battery charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how > would I know? By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? I'm not planning > to have an ammeter. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- =========================================== Normal Operation: Fuel valve on both all the time (no valve to switch). One or the other electric pump on to select tank used. Tanks switched with the pumps. Takeoff and landing. Same as above but both electric pumps on. Failures. Electric pump failure. Fuel selector switched to that tank if that fuel is needed. Mechanical pump failure would NOT be noticed in this system but could be checked at startup (or in the air if you wanted to turn both pumps off). All of the advantages you pointed out but would not be dependent on the electrical system or an electric pump failure. I like simple systems. I owned and flew a Beech Duchess (light light twin) for 14 years. Left tank fed left engine, right tank fed right engine. No switching fuel valves unless an engine failure. Went back to a single engine three years ago, first time I had to switch tanks I wasn't happy having to fool with the fuel. A year later in the same plane, my wife (a pilot also) switched tanks for me but commented that it didn't feel right going into the left position. I looked down at the valve and saw that a loose nut from a screw was lodged between the handle and the stop preventing the valve from fully engaging. Luckily the engine continued running , valve back to right, fish nut out, valve to left then worked fine. Should there be loose nuts in the airplane? No, but stuff happens. Therefore when I heard of your system, I liked it immediately. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: E-bus Operations With SD-8
Date: Oct 17, 2006
-----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 >Gents: > > > >How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG >battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and >the SD-8 carries the E-bus load? "Nearly fully charged" is un-quantified . . . so a quantified answer is not possible. I know. I was fishing for a range of probable draws. It struck me that battery charge state represents an UNKNOWN variable that I lack the necessary knowledge to properly plan for. I trust that the Z-drawings represent "proper system design," but practically everything I know about airplane electrical systems has come from your book and this list. When I find what APPEAR to be inconsistencies, I seek clarification. You stress the importance of understanding the operation of whatever system you use. You recommend sizing a main alternator to have 20 - 25% of capacity available for battery charging, IIRC. In a single-engine VFR OBAM airplane with a typical 40A alternator, that means 8 to 10 amps for battery charging. O.K.--I assumed that is a value that would charge even a severely discharged battery in a "reasonable" period of time without starving the other loads. But at the other end--a "nearly- fully charged battery"--all I knew was that when I use a battery charger to charge up a deep cycle battery, the current draw diminishes as the battery gets charged, but it never goes to zero. It is not clear from the small-scale meter on the charger just what that amperage is. if you "overload" the alternator with a combination of running and battery-recharge loads, the voltage will sag and transfer of power will favor of the running loads. Starting an engine takes but a few percent of a battery's capacity. Likelihood that you're going to have a seriously discharged battery battery by the time you launch is low. If the battery is still wanting to take in energy from a 14.2 volt bus and your main alternator quits, a 6A running load will still leave 2A to top off the battery but in no case is the operation of running loads compromised because the battery is not topped off. Thanks. That relieves my concern. > By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? The e-bus fuse protects that wire ONLY. If your system is properly designed, that fuse will NEVER open based on the combination of battery/alternator/running loads. Okay. Didn't know if a hungry battery could draw enough to threaten that fuse. I'm relieved that it can't. > I m not planning to have an ammeter. That's what load analysis is all about. KNOW what the loads are for Plan-A and Plan-B and in some cases Plan-C. That's why I asked the question--I discovered there was a load I didn't KNOW the value of--or where else to find it. But you've shown me that that item (battery charging load) doesn't really matter as long as I KNOW that if bus voltage isn't close to the set point of the SD-8, I may need to shed some other KNOWN load to let the SD-8 devote some more electrons to battery charging--even though that shouldn't be necessary if I haven't abused the battery. Electrical system failure management in flight based on readings taken from panel instruments is not good design, planning or maintenance. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
The way I ran this system was to only run both pumps for TO and landing...Maybe batting around the pattern I would leave both pumps running but generally would only do this if I had way more fuel that I would burn on the flight. Normal cruise would be one pump or the other...if the pump quit i simply flipped on the second pump. What you are getting at Barry is the fact that you have to understand the system is different and is managed accordingly. But it is very simple and the only really nasty failure mode I can think of is what happens in the event of a lightening strike. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- ================== Normal Operation: Fuel valve on both all the time (no valve to switch). One or the other electric pump on to select tank used. Tanks switched with the pumps. Takeoff and landing. Same as above but both electric pumps on. Failures. Electric pump failure. Fuel selector switched to that tank if that fuel is needed. Mechanical pump failure would NOT be noticed in this system but could be checked at startup (or in the air if you wanted to turn both pumps off). All of the advantages you pointed out but would not be dependent on the electrical system or an electric pump failure. I like simple systems. I owned and flew a Beech Duchess (light light twin) for 14 years. Left tank fed left engine, right tank fed right engine. No switching fuel valves unless an engine failure. Went back to a single engine three years ago, first time I had to switch tanks I wasn't happy having to fool with the fuel. A year later in the same plane, my wife (a pilot also) switched tanks for me but commented that it didn't feel right going into the left position. I looked down at the valve and saw that a loose nut from a screw was lodged between the handle and the stop preventing the valve from fully engaging. Luckily the engine continued running , valve back to right, fish nut out, valve to left then worked fine. Should there be loose nuts in the airplane? No, but stuff happens. Therefore when I heard of your system, I liked it immediately. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: E-bus Operations With SD-8
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Thanks, Matt. I didn't comprehend that the battery would be a kind of "spongy" load that would only draw whatever surplus current is available. I get it now. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:30 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 I don't see this as a big concern.. I think the system behavior will be good with the loads and supplies you are talking about. If the main alternator fails, the SD8 will supply enough power to run your e-bus plus 2A. If the battery is really flat, the bus voltage may sag from the regulated voltage (14.5V) to no lower than about 13.5V. It won't go lower than that because the battery charge current will drop off steeply as the bus voltage sags below 14.5V, and would probably be zero if the bus sags to 13V. The battery will take whatever excess charging energy is available from the SD-8, but no more. And, if the non-battery-charging bus loads rise above the output of the SD-8, any charge left in the battery will keep the bus voltage from sagging further. As Bob has suggested in the past, a voltmeter is a great tool in this kind of system.. If your goal is to be able to run until you're out of gas, reduce electrical loads until the bus voltage rises above 12.5 (indicating that you aren't depleting the battery). You could then be confident that the SD-8 was keeping up. Regards, Matt- > Gents: > > > How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG > battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and > the > SD-8 carries the E-bus load? I'm planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics > bus which would draw a continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an > up-to-2-amp load (the PDA running a moving map) and let it run on its own > battery for a couple hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder > (~2 amps) if battery charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how > would I know? By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? I'm not planning > to have an ammeter. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: <chaztuna(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done
this? ---- Tinne maha wrote: > > Yes, I've done it! (If I can, anyone can) > > I have an Ipod Mini running off ship's power, wired into my flightcom 403 > intercom. I had a difficult time finding the info & equipment (not all in > one place), but finally got it done. I'm not flying yet, but have operated > the system & listened to the music through my headphones. > > As far as accessories, I will have to look up where/what I got later, but a > google search for IPOD accessories yields many hits. You can find chargers > as well as connections to hook into car stereo systems. Not too expensive. > I got a charger, chopped the cigarette lighter off it & wired it straight to > my main bus. I believe most intercoms have a pin labeled aux in or music in > or something like that. I put the output there & voila! > > > > From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky) > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done > this? > > If you haven't yet, stop and think that it might just be more convenient and > better > solution afterall to just buy headsets with input plugs and let everyone > listen to the music they want, at the volume they want and to not listen to > anything > if they don't want, etc. > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> > > > > >Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it > >looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video > >tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 player > >with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site and didn't > >find an automobile type/docking station. The preference would be to install > >it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's own internal batteries. > >With the form factor of the ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost > >anywhere and not necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done > >this? > > > >Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E-bus Operations With SD-8
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
While we are on the subject....What voltage is the SD8 normally regulated to? I have yet to test it for real (and I have electric fuel pumps so its hard to get more than 12.2V at normal ground running RPMs...)But I do see the volts drop from 12.2V to 12 at idle so I assume its functioning. I think I might take off with just the SD8 running (after taxiing out to the runway with the 60A altrunning to make sure I have a fully charged battery) and cirle over the airport to make sure the SD8 keeps 12.1V or above during my min power draw emergency scenario. Sound reasonable? Thanks Frank ________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
Deems, Here is what I am planning on doing with the PS 8000B that I'm putting in. First I am using an Alpine IVA-D300 for the core entertainment system. It has Sirius, DVD, MP3/WMA, external audio/video input capabilities, and the screen retracts when not in use. It was the unit you saw in my truck at Airventure. In addition I am putting a screen in the back of the seats for the rear seat pax. You can pick these up from eBay I am putting in a switch to make the copilot seat selectable between crew and pax so if it is a non-pilot they aren't stuck over with me and I can listen to music and they can watch a movie or whatever with the pax. There will be a camera in the top of the VS that can be selected as an input on the Alpine for an external view. In addition I am putting in a regular mini jack in the backseat for the pax to plug in whatever they may want for music. Lastly I am putting in jacks (not sure where yet) for the external audio/video inputs in the Alpine to plug in whatever is the next big thing for audio/video playback. Maybe something like the Creative Zen Vision. 60GB is enough for me to carry 75 movies which should be enough selection to keep the most indecisive 5 year old happy. I may also use the Alpines audio/video outputs and connect them to a remote mounted camcorder for the external shots when the whim hit's me. It seems like a confusing bunch of things that are overly complicated but it really isn't that bad. It's really just two switches and a couple jacks. But it should provide enough flexibility to keep the family/pax happy on a 6 hour flight regardless of what tech does for a while. Now if I can just get my wife to understand that coming down from 15,000 feet for a potty break costs just a bit more than pulling over at a gas station. :-) Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage > > Deems Davis wrote: > >> >> >> Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, >> it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & >> video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like >> MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples >> web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The >> preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run >> solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the >> ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not >> necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? > > Install a mini-DIN jack off of your intercom, and you can plug in > whatever next years format might be. > > Lock yourself into the Ipod, and you have the same issue that you're > facing now with tapes and CDs. Keep the interface generic. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Frank: The issue is NOT running the pumps, one or both ... BUT, running of BOTH tanks at the same time. This is a No-No for low wingers. It is easier to pump AIR than fuel so the pumps run dry ALL PUMPS electrical and mechanical. For when a pump is given a choice of AIR Vs Fuel, such as in the 'Y' connection where both tanks feed the same engine mechanical pump, the pump takes the path of least resistance ... AIR. As far as the lighting strike ... I don't know for sure, but I would say you are TOAST. But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both configuration will lead to an emergency situation. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ============================================================================= ========= The way I ran this system was to only run both pumps for TO and landing...Maybe batting around the pattern I would leave both pumps running but generally would only do this if I had way more fuel that I would burn on the flight. Normal cruise would be one pump or the other...if the pump quit i simply flipped on the second pump. What you are getting at Barry is the fact that you have to understand the system is different and is managed accordingly. But it is very simple and the only really nasty failure mode I can think of is what happens in the event of a lightening strike. Frank From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- =========================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Subject: E-bus Operations With SD-8
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Noodling around on the aeroelectric website, I saw this pdf: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8-Performance.pdf It shows the output current at 13.8V and 12.5V. I don't know what the voltage would be at zero load... Depending on what "normal ground running RPMs" actually are, you could extrapolate what the bus load is, or if you know what the bus load is, you can determine wether the alternator is actually functioning. 12.2V, depending one where you are measuring it, seems kind of low.. Matt- > While we are on the subject....What voltage is the SD8 normally > regulated to? I have yet to test it for real (and I have electric fuel > pumps so its hard to get more than 12.2V at normal ground running > RPMs...)But I do see the volts drop from 12.2V to 12 at idle so I assume > its functioning. > > I think I might take off with just the SD8 running (after taxiing out to > the runway with the 60A altrunning to make sure I have a fully charged > battery) and cirle over the airport to make sure the SD8 keeps 12.1V or > above during my min power draw emergency scenario. > > Sound reasonable? > > Thanks > > Frank > > ________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
It is not a NO-NO Barry....In an experimental airplane you can do what you want...And I have and i'm happy with the system. I simply leave a small reserve in each tank. As I said the only time I run both pumps is for take off and landing. if you did suck a tank dry then you screwed up...Simply turn off the low tank, not that it should have been running with a nearly empty tank in the first place. I think if you focussed on the benefits of the system (i.e fuel pumps in both both a cool place and in the hydraulically correct place) then the small downside of sucking a tank dry (that should never happen unless your asleep) is a minor consideration. I did not suck a tank dry in 400 hours...but as I said the system is not normally run with both pumps running at the same time. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Frank: The issue is NOT running the pumps, one or both ... BUT, running of BOTH tanks at the same time. This is a No-No for low wingers. It is easier to pump AIR than fuel so the pumps run dry ALL PUMPS electrical and mechanical. For when a pump is given a choice of AIR Vs Fuel, such as in the 'Y' connection where both tanks feed the same engine mechanical pump, the pump takes the path of least resistance ... AIR. As far as the lighting strike ... I don't know for sure, but I would say you are TOAST. But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both configuration will lead to an emergency situation. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ============ The way I ran this system was to only run both pumps for TO and landing...Maybe batting around the pattern I would leave both pumps running but generally would only do this if I had way more fuel that I would burn on the flight. Normal cruise would be one pump or the other...if the pump quit i simply flipped on the second pump. What you are getting at Barry is the fact that you have to understand the system is different and is managed accordingly. But it is very simple and the only really nasty failure mode I can think of is what happens in the event of a lightening strike. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- ================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Oh BTW this statement is incorrect...The air will simply vent through the float bowl. Note the fuel; pumps are in the wingroots. The pump will not pump air against the other pump that is pumping liquid...Can't happen. For a FI'd engine it won't vent air through the injection system bu it still won't pump air. Frank ________________________________ But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both configuration will lead to an emergency situation. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor?
Date: Oct 18, 2006
Bob What was the out come of the molded rubber boots? I actually have the S701-2 and have reconfigured the jumpers to the S701-1 configuration. I figured the actual contactors are one and the same. The boots are on there to stay (grinder will be required) and there is no way the contactor will get a ground with them on. Are you still recommending to grind them off? Can the case be grounded by running a wire to the gnd forest of tabs. If so what size wire. The contactor is mounted on a composite firewall 2' from the tabs. Starter contactor is on the firewall side which grounds through the stainless firewall. If the boots come off the contactor will ground through the firewall via the starter mounting bolts (starter contactor and battery contactor mounted back to back) Thanks Bob. Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net>
Subject: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal lettering for my panel? Bill S. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
Hi Bill....I'm very interested in this subject too. Pls send me any replies you get. Many thanks Neil At 06:21 PM 10/17/2006, you wrote: > > >Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal >lettering for my panel? Bill S. > > >-- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net>
Subject: Re: New battery optionNew battery option/W&B
Date: Oct 17, 2006
I have done numerous preliminary W&B calculations and reached a similar conclusion. Occupant weight in an RV-7 is aft of the empty CG. My solution will be to hang a Hartzell C/S prop on the nose. At least the 20 Lbs. of ballast on the nose will provide an advantage in short field and climb capability. Larry Tompkins 360 896-2925 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
This is where I'm getting ready to send my sheet: http://www.pinkscolor.com/ Dave Morris At 05:21 PM 10/17/2006, you wrote: > > >Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal >lettering for my panel? Bill S. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
Date: Oct 17, 2006
> > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey batteries on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus shipping. I did a search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, but he sells them for $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. http://tinyurl.com/sfwps Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Barry's statement is true for most low wing light aircraft. Frank's aircraft has an unusual fuel system design that shouldn't have a problem in this scenario, as fuel pumps generally do a pretty poor job of pumping air. It would be good to do an actual test to demonstrate this mode of operation though, just in case there is a gotcha lurking. Some other low wing aircraft (e.g. some Yaks) use gravity feed from both wings to a small header tank, and have the fuel pump sucking from the header tank. This would also prevent an emergency if you run one wing dry with the fuel selector in Both. But, on RVs with a "normal" fuel system, running one wing dry with a fuel selector on Both would lead to an engine failure. Kevin Horton On 17 Oct 2006, at 16:37, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > Oh BTW this statement is incorrect...The air will simply vent > through the float bowl. Note the fuel; pumps are in the wingroots. > The pump will not pump air against the other pump that is pumping > liquid...Can't happen. > > For a FI'd engine it won't vent air through the injection system bu > it still won't pump air. > > Frank > > > But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both > configuration will lead to an emergency situation. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Kenneth Melvin" <melvinke(at)coho.net>
Subject: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Aerographics ( http://www.aerographics.com/) do a superb job. Kenneth Melvin, Hillsboro, Oregon -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Marsha Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering --> Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal lettering for my panel? Bill S. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
In a message dated 10/17/06 4:40:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank.hinde(at)hp.com writes: > It is not a NO-NO Barry....In an experimental airplane you can do what > you want...And I have and i'm happy with the system. I simply leave a > small reserve in each tank. =========================== Frank: Experimental has nothing to do with it. It is PHYSICS. Do some simple experimenting. Make up a 'Y' fitting have the Gas Tank on one side of the 'Y' and NOTHING but AIR on the other side. Now put the pump at the bottom of the 'Y'. What do you think will happen? Lots of pump noise but NO FUEL. Now, I know you are going to say: But I have the electric pump at the top of the 'Y' ... It does NOT matter. Your mechanical engine pump is still at the bottom of the 'Y' and it will still suck air. Yet you may be lucky and get some fuel mixed with air ... Gee in this case I'd take physics over luck. As for your statement about the air leaking out the float bowl ... I agree 100%. It sure will ... Because AIR is the only thing that will be in the float bowl. #2 Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
I tested it on the ground but I think I'll avoid the temptation in flight...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) --> Barry's statement is true for most low wing light aircraft. Frank's aircraft has an unusual fuel system design that shouldn't have a problem in this scenario, as fuel pumps generally do a pretty poor job of pumping air. It would be good to do an actual test to demonstrate this mode of operation though, just in case there is a gotcha lurking. Some other low wing aircraft (e.g. some Yaks) use gravity feed from both wings to a small header tank, and have the fuel pump sucking from the header tank. This would also prevent an emergency if you run one wing dry with the fuel selector in Both. But, on RVs with a "normal" fuel system, running one wing dry with a fuel selector on Both would lead to an engine failure. Kevin Horton On 17 Oct 2006, at 16:37, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > Oh BTW this statement is incorrect...The air will simply vent through > the float bowl. Note the fuel; pumps are in the wingroots. > The pump will not pump air against the other pump that is pumping > liquid...Can't happen. > > For a FI'd engine it won't vent air through the injection system bu it > still won't pump air. > > Frank > > > But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both > configuration will lead to an emergency situation. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Date: Oct 17, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Barry we have beaten this to death I think....Clearly I have not conveyed the layout of the system. I do not have a mechanical pump. I have two electric pumps...Each pump is in the wingroot...I.e pushing on the fuel. There is no point in the system that the fuel is under suck (except right at the discharge of the tank)....Now the two pressure feeds from each pump join at what was the selector valve...Its a simple tee fitting. There is a check valve in each of these feeds. Now if a pump goes dry it does not pump air against the head of the other pump...I have proved this on the ground...Doesn't do the pump much good and I would never intentionally run it dry because then you have lost redundancy...I.e I'm down to a single electric pump only. If I screwed up and ran a tank dry I would hope it would be running a single pump (cruise mode) and I would simply flip on the other pump...power restored no problem. If I ran a tank dry with both pumping I would probably not know about it because the dead pump won't pump air. Now why did I do this your probably asking...Simple, its an almost vapour lock proof system no matter what fuel you choose to run. Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:53 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) In a message dated 10/17/06 4:40:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank.hinde(at)hp.com writes: > It is not a NO-NO Barry....In an experimental airplane you can do what > you want...And I have and i'm happy with the system. I simply leave a > small reserve in each tank. =========================== Frank: Experimental has nothing to do with it. It is PHYSICS. Do some simple experimenting. Make up a 'Y' fitting have the Gas Tank on one side of the 'Y' and NOTHING but AIR on the other side. Now put the pump at the bottom of the 'Y'. What do you think will happen? Lots of pump noise but NO FUEL. Now, I know you are going to say: But I have the electric pump at the top of the 'Y' ... It does NOT matter. Your mechanical engine pump is still at the bottom of the 'Y' and it will still suck air. Yet you may be lucky and get some fuel mixed with air ... Gee in this case I'd take physics over luck. As for your statement about the air leaking out the float bowl ... I agree 100%. It sure will ... Because AIR is the only thing that will be in the float bowl. #2 Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry Ford" <psychden(at)sonic.net>
Subject: Re: New battery option
Date: Oct 17, 2006
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: New battery option
Date: Oct 17, 2006
Yeah, but that's not an odyssey battery that he's selling. Pax, Ed -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey batteries on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus shipping. I did a search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, but he sells them for $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. http://tinyurl.com/sfwps Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 18, 2006
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
Kevin and others... I'd be cautious of the battery from eBay that you mentioned, Kevin...It's not an Odyssey. http://tinyurl.com/sfwps is a Taiwan made rip off...number UB 16 CL-B (an obvious replacement for the Yuasu battery)it's bigger, (height and width), and according to the ad, it weighs 4 pounds LESS...wonder what they left out? . May not be as desirable a replacement. From their website: "Gruber Power Services also manufactures batteries under the Gruber brand" Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Horton wrote: > > >> >> So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? > > There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey batteries > on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus shipping. I did a > search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, but he sells them for > $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. > > http://tinyurl.com/sfwps > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 18, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
Bill and Marsha wrote: > > > Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal > lettering for my panel? Bill S. > Start looking at Jim Weir's articles in Kitplanes. He details how to use cheap inject printer paper to make lettering transfers. As a synopsis: Cheap. Store brand. Cheapest they have. Inject printer paper. It has a coating that allows the ink to come off on the part. Print a mirror image in a laser printer. My wife just bought a color laser printer for her work, and most large companies have one or two now, so if you want more than black it isn't hard. Place the printout, letter down, on the part and give it a good rub down with a hot iron. Laser printer toner is just a thermo-plastic (plastic designed to be melted). The printing is now stuck to the part and the paper. Soak the part in warm, soapy water till the paper floats away. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 18, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es)
Kevin Horton wrote: > > > Barry's statement is true for most low wing light aircraft. Frank's > aircraft has an unusual fuel system design that shouldn't have a > problem in this scenario, as fuel pumps generally do a pretty poor > job of pumping air. It would be good to do an actual test to > demonstrate this mode of operation though, just in case there is a > gotcha lurking. I've heard some anecdotal evidence that says these pumps don't like being run dry. The person's complaint was that he had a few die in a couple different cars, and in each case it was soon after an incident of running out of gas, even though the pump had given years of reliable service. Seems reasonable considering that the fuel provides cooling and lubrication. This is in no way to be construed as scientific evidence, or a repeatable experiment, but I'd keep any such test very short (for some undefined value of "very short"). -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Oct 18, 2006
This question came up last year so this is a bit of a repost. Google "Inkjet decals" for waterslide decal material. This allows you to use an inkjet printer to make panel labels. A little experimenting will lead to professional results. Overspray with Krylon art protector, etc. I have talked with builders who are very satisfied with this technique. This is a very "enabling " technology. You can put any kind of art onto almost any solid material. A great many decal types and inks are available--UV fluorescent, etc. Someone asked about white ink, and I looked into it an found ALMOST none. Roland makes the world's ONLY white inkjet ink. But the cheapest Roland inkjet printer costs $22,000. I don't have any personal experience (yet) and am not promoting it--just offering it and charging enough to cover my costs. The ink is low viscosity. The Roland inkjet printer this is used in uses standard inkjet technology, but the ink supply is MUCH larger. The large cartridge used in the printer holds over 220 ml liter and costs about $150 each. Additionally the white ink requires a little bit of heat to set up. This can be a heatlamp or hairdryer. My deal--the ink is $25 for 15 ml and I pay shipping. Contact me offlist if interested--emjones(at)charter.net You'll have to get your own virgin (not recycled!) cartridge. http://www.inksupply.com/ has them, but not for all printers. Remember that printers are almost free these days. Let everybody know how this works out. Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." --(Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68713#68713 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Oct 18, 2006
AirGizmos makes nice stuff-- I do wonder if the rapid progress of Audio Visual products makes putting an Ipod on your panel adviseable. Perhaps a USB socket is the only recognizeable part that will be around in ten years. Plug in! See these state-of-the-art guys-- http://www.trekstorusa.com/thumbdrive_music.htm $99 "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68723#68723 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done
this?
Date: Oct 18, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Hmm...I think an IPOD is not the ideal platform for playing music in an airplane. I know lot of people do it successfully but the fact it has a mechanical disc drive makes it a bit like a vacuum gyro Vs a solid state EFIS. Anyway, this device is a little small/slow...The real state of the art solid state MP3 players are now over 1GB memory and feature USB 2.x which I believe is a faster transfer rate than the USB 1.x When SS MP# players get to about %GB then they will hold more songs than you would ever need..Unless your CD collection looks like my Wife's...:) Check THIS out....:).... http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/t10/T10-2GB.aspx Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> AirGizmos makes nice stuff-- I do wonder if the rapid progress of Audio Visual products makes putting an Ipod on your panel adviseable. Perhaps a USB socket is the only recognizeable part that will be around in ten years. Plug in! See these state-of-the-art guys-- http://www.trekstorusa.com/thumbdrive_music.htm $99 "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68723#68723 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson(at)showmeproductions.com>
Subject: Permanent Magnet vs. Series Wound...
Date: Oct 18, 2006
I am considering purchasing a hydraulic power pack for a landing application. The power pack comes in two type: Permanent Magnet and Series wound. I notice the series wound take more current for the same psi. What are the pros/cons of each type? Thank you. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "CH701" <701stol(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
Date: Oct 18, 2006
Ink-Jet & Laser waterslide decal stock (8.5 x 11 sheets in clear or white) is available from: http://www.beldecal.com/model_decals.cfm I've used it for all the decals on a pedal plane that I recently completed (photo's attached) and was extremely pleased with the results. Todd Henning West Bend, WI CH701 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done
this?
Date: Oct 18, 2006
Only the full size Ipods are Hard disk based... If you really want something little and *cool*, check out the new Ipod Shuffle, you'd loose it in the airplane I'm sure... Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:18 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> (Corvallis)" Hmm...I think an IPOD is not the ideal platform for playing music in an airplane. I know lot of people do it successfully but the fact it has a mechanical disc drive makes it a bit like a vacuum gyro Vs a solid state EFIS. Anyway, this device is a little small/slow...The real state of the art solid state MP3 players are now over 1GB memory and feature USB 2.x which I believe is a faster transfer rate than the USB 1.x When SS MP# players get to about %GB then they will hold more songs than you would ever need..Unless your CD collection looks like my Wife's...:) Check THIS out....:).... http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/t10/T10-2GB.aspx Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> AirGizmos makes nice stuff-- I do wonder if the rapid progress of Audio Visual products makes putting an Ipod on your panel adviseable. Perhaps a USB socket is the only recognizeable part that will be around in ten years. Plug in! See these state-of-the-art guys-- http://www.trekstorusa.com/thumbdrive_music.htm $99 "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68723#68723 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 18, 2006
Subject: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Eric, How do you hook up a usb port to the typical "music" input cable on our a/c intercom? Jim Nelson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration
Date: Oct 18, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
I think that's how you put music INTO the memory stick...I.e plug it into your laptop and download...To get music out use the headphone jack. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James H Nelson Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration --> Eric, How do you hook up a usb port to the typical "music" input cable on our a/c intercom? Jim Nelson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: New battery option
Date: Oct 18, 2006
Yeah, I should have looked more closely at that auction before I posted it. The PC680 I bought a couple of years ago is definitely an Odyssey, but the prices on eBay have really gone up since then. I got mine for about $50, which was the going rate then. Now they are selling for around $90. Kevin On 18 Oct 2006, at 07:40, Harley wrote: > Kevin and others... > > I'd be cautious of the battery from eBay that you mentioned, > Kevin...It's not an Odyssey. > > http://tinyurl.com/sfwps is a Taiwan made rip off...number UB 16 CL- > B (an obvious replacement for the Yuasu battery)it's bigger, > (height and width), and according to the ad, it weighs 4 pounds > LESS...wonder what they left out? . > > May not be as desirable a replacement. > > >From their website: "Gruber Power Services also manufactures > batteries under the Gruber brand" > > Harley Dixon > > > Kevin Horton wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? >> >> There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey >> batteries on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus >> shipping. I did a search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, >> but he sells them for $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/sfwps >> >> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >> Ottawa, Canada >> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How do you connect this thing?
From: "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net>
Date: Oct 18, 2006
I am assuming that +24V goes to the red terminal and ground to the black. Does the red terminal put out the high voltage to the Mag? -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=68810#68810 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: Dave <dave(at)abrahamson.net>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
A totally different approach is offered by Front Panel Express http://frontpanelexpress.com/. They provide labeled cutouts on aluminum. Anyone try them? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: Nancy Ghertner <nghertner(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
On 10/19/06 6:29 AM, "Dave" wrote: > > A totally different approach is offered by Front Panel Express > http://frontpanelexpress.com/. They provide labeled cutouts on > aluminum. Anyone try them? > > > > > Aircraft Engravers has multiple solutions. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brett Ferrell" <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Subject: Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering
Date: Oct 19, 2006
I've used frontpanel express, and have been very pleased with their workmanship. http://www.velocityxl.com/Electrical.htm#Circuit Breakers Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Ghertner" <nghertner(at)verizon.net> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:38 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering > > > On 10/19/06 6:29 AM, "Dave" wrote: > >> >> A totally different approach is offered by Front Panel Express >> http://frontpanelexpress.com/. They provide labeled cutouts on >> aluminum. Anyone try them? >> >> >> >> >> > Aircraft Engravers has multiple solutions. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 10/18/06
Still wondering if anyone has any experience with the Garmin GMX 30 "Smart Antenna"? I need an XM receiver input to complete my homemade nav system. I'm using a mini-computer and a dedicated 8" LCD display along with AnywhereMap. The Weather Worx receiver is an obvious option, but I just ran across the GMX 30 which "appears" to have all the features I need for a lot less money. Am I missing anything here??? Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 10/18/06
I believe the problem with your comparison is that the GXM 30 outputs encoded information and is only compatible with certain Garmin navigator GPSes. Your "mini-computer" will not know what to do with the signals unless you write software to take the data and display it. So you need the WX Worx, which does that translation for you into a format compatible with a Windows computer. What computer are you using, and have you tested it for interference with your COM radios on all channels? I ask, because I'm going down that same road with an 8" Lilliput display and an Epia single-board computer. Dave Morris At 09:10 AM 10/19/2006, you wrote: >Still wondering if anyone has any experience with the Garmin GMX 30 >"Smart Antenna"? I need an XM receiver input to complete my >homemade nav system. I'm using a mini-computer and a dedicated 8" >LCD display along with AnywhereMap. The Weather Worx receiver is an >obvious option, but I just ran across the GMX 30 which "appears" to >have all the features I need for a lot less money. Am I missing >anything here??? > >Regards, > >Lee... > > ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com>
Subject: Powering fuel injectors
Date: Oct 19, 2006
I am using Z-19 as a guide for wiring my plane. The primary and secondary fuel injectors are not powered through the ECU, just controlled by it. I would like to power the injectors from the battery buss. Looking at Z-19, do I need to install a complete switch and diode system for the injectors like is done for the fuel pump and ECU, or can I tie on to the fuel pump OR the ECU system after either the switch (add a separate diode) or after one of the diodes? There will be two DPDT switches to disable the primary and secondary injectors after this connection. My panel is becoming somewhat switch festooned and I would like to keep more switches to a minimum. Thanks, Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
Subject: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil of
relays? We spent quite a bit of time trying to keep the panel of our Europa Monowheel free of clutter. There is a convenient piece of real estate between occupants in the ceiling. We are thinking pretty hard about making it a control panel and putting small switches up there that would control coil of relays to run non critical items, like position lights, strobes, landing light etc. My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model airplane servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on up. It is probably like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones running fans etc. These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. Does this sound acceptable? Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil
of relays? Since it's going to be running right past your nose, what gasses does its insulation put off if it overheats? Dave Morris At 12:22 PM 10/19/2006, you wrote: > >We spent quite a bit of time trying to keep the panel of our Europa >Monowheel free of clutter. > >There is a convenient piece of real estate between occupants in the >ceiling. > >We are thinking pretty hard about making it a control panel and putting >small switches up there that would control coil of relays to run non >critical items, like position lights, strobes, landing light etc. > >My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model airplane >servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on up. It is probably >like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones running >fans etc. > >These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. > >Does this sound acceptable? > >Ron Parigoris > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
From: sgettings(at)cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil
of relays? Answer: No. Calculate the correct size of the wire using the current load of the circuit and don't forget appropriate fuses sized to protect the wire. Use only quality aviation wire such as MIL-W-22759/16 available at any aircraft supply. This is not the place (is there any?) to save money in an airplane. Scott Gettings ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com> Date: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:53 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil of relays? > > Since it's going to be running right past your nose, what gasses > does > its insulation put off if it overheats? > > Dave Morris > > At 12:22 PM 10/19/2006, you wrote: > > > >We spent quite a bit of time trying to keep the panel of our Europa > >Monowheel free of clutter. > > > >There is a convenient piece of real estate between occupants in the > >ceiling. > > > >We are thinking pretty hard about making it a control panel and > putting>small switches up there that would control coil of relays > to run non > >critical items, like position lights, strobes, landing light etc. > > > >My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model > airplane>servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on > up. It is probably > >like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones > running>fans etc. > > > >These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. > > > >Does this sound acceptable? > > > >Ron Parigoris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
Subject: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil of
relays?
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Hi Ron I built an Europa and put several functions up in the overhead area. Master, Strobes, running lights, alternator shut off and back up alternator on, speaker, Head phones. I made a cover for the windshield bow and ran most of the wires up the starboard half of the bow. It strengthened the bow as I did it for both sides. It got rid of a bunch of switches that are used only once to start the mission. That left only relavent switches on the panel. Jim Nelson A058 Monowheel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Boots on Battery Contactor.
Date: Oct 20, 2006
Bob and Listers. With reference to the discussion that has been going on re this subject. My starter and battery contactor both came from B & C. The battery contactor has boots the starter contactor does not. Got them 12 months ago. I emailed B & C about the boots on the battery contactor and got the following reply. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The S701-1 and S701-2 are the same basic contactor. The coil is isolated from the case, therefore the case need not be grounded. Both coil leads are brought out to their respective #10 studs on the side of the cylinder. Note that the pre-wired S701-1 coil receives its power through the Red jumper from the battery post, and its ground through the Master Switch (which is connected to the other #10 stud). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, if I knew how the switches worked I would have been able to see that the wire from the Master switch was a GND wire and not a +12V wire. Which is different than the starter contactor, the wire from the start switch is +12V and the starter contactor gets its GND from the airframe.(Z13-8) So no need to grind the boots off the battery contactor Maybe this will clear it up. Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 19, 2006
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil
of re... In a message dated 10/19/2006 1:31:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US writes: My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model airplane servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on up. It is probably like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones running fans etc. These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. Does this sound acceptable? Ron Parigoris ============================== Ron: I would say NO. The reasons are: 1 - Cannot handle the current. Even if the aircraft wire and your wire are the same gage the insulation cannot handle the current. 2 - Abrasion - Aircraft wire has a high resistance to abrasion. The thin stuff (R/C Servo wire) cannot handle it. 3 - Flammability - The wire you want to use does not meet flammability requirements. It probably does not meet the fume requirements either. 4 - I know, I know - you are thinking experimental. Still not a reason to misplace good building practices or AC 43.13 2B 5 - Back to item #1 --- Cannot handle the current. The R/C servo wire is about 22 AWG. It is in short runs. And has next to zero current ... Miliamps! Your position lights are probably in the area of 2 Amps Each ... And you have three, so you are looking at about 6 Amps. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 19, 2006
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to
coil of re...
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Hello Barry, You might have noticed that Ron was asking about controlling the coil of a relay with this lightweight wire. The current required for such a task is likely less than 100mA.. VERY fine wire will handle that much current. If adequate electrical protection for the wire is provided, there's not much risk. Running this wire near the headset/mic wiring also probably won't be much of an issue. Very little current will pass through the control leads to a relay, so very little noise will be generated. The items on your list wouldn't be switched at high frequency either, so that helps too. Conversely, if you run heavy enough wire to power the strobes up the switch panel, and the wire is in the same bundle as the mic leads, I think that might invite headaches.. The other items on the list aren't likely to be a concern. I'd say that for the non-critical stuff that Ron listed (all of it), the most difficult issue is whether he can handle the mechanical end of the installation.. It can be a real bear to find connectors that work well with the extremely fine insulated wire. It can also be difficult to provide adequate strain relief for such wire. As you mentioned, Barry, abrasion resistance can be tough to address. For a small bundle of wire, I wouldn't be concerned about smoke factor either. I mean, it's a plastic airplane.. The other issue I'd mention is parts count. Several more wire connections to make. Most common relays have moving parts and electrical contacts. Any of these items can fail. For non-critical systems, it's not a big deal safety-wise, but it will eventually lead to a higher hassle factor. It would look pretty cool though.. :) One final thought.. It might be tough to find test data for the proposed fine wire.. But you can generate your own.. Burn some. Does it support combustion? How easy is it to damage the insulation by abrasion? Regards, Matt- > In a message dated 10/19/2006 1:31:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US writes: > My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model airplane servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on up. It is probably > like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones running fans etc. > > These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. > > Does this sound acceptable? > > Ron Parigoris > ============================== > Ron: > > I would say NO. > > The reasons are: > 1 - Cannot handle the current. > Even if the aircraft wire and your wire are the same gage the insulation cannot handle the current. > > 2 - Abrasion - Aircraft wire has a high resistance to abrasion. > The thin stuff (R/C Servo wire) cannot handle it. > > 3 - Flammability - The wire you want to use does not meet flammability requirements. > It probably does not meet the fume requirements either. > > 4 - I know, I know - you are thinking experimental. > Still not a reason to misplace good building practices or AC 43.13 2B > > 5 - Back to item #1 --- Cannot handle the current. > The R/C servo wire is about 22 AWG. It is in short runs. And has next to > zero current ... Miliamps! > Your position lights are probably in the area of 2 Amps Each ... And you have > three, so you are looking at about 6 Amps. > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third > time." > Yamashiada > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 20, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to
coil of re... Not just "does it support combustion", but what gasses does it give off, and will they kill you dead if you smoke one of the wires due to a short somewhere? Dave Morris At 07:22 PM 10/19/2006, you wrote: > >Hello Barry, > >You might have noticed that Ron was asking about controlling the coil of a >relay with this lightweight wire. The current required for such a task is >likely less than 100mA.. VERY fine wire will handle that much current. >If adequate electrical protection for the wire is provided, there's not >much risk. Running this wire near the headset/mic wiring also probably >won't be much of an issue. Very little current will pass through the >control leads to a relay, so very little noise will be generated. The >items on your list wouldn't be switched at high frequency either, so that >helps too. > >Conversely, if you run heavy enough wire to power the strobes up the >switch panel, and the wire is in the same bundle as the mic leads, I think >that might invite headaches.. The other items on the list aren't likely >to be a concern. > >I'd say that for the non-critical stuff that Ron listed (all of it), the >most difficult issue is whether he can handle the mechanical end of the >installation.. It can be a real bear to find connectors that work well >with the extremely fine insulated wire. It can also be difficult to >provide adequate strain relief for such wire. As you mentioned, Barry, >abrasion resistance can be tough to address. For a small bundle of wire, >I wouldn't be concerned about smoke factor either. I mean, it's a plastic >airplane.. > >The other issue I'd mention is parts count. Several more wire connections >to make. Most common relays have moving parts and electrical contacts. >Any of these items can fail. For non-critical systems, it's not a big >deal safety-wise, but it will eventually lead to a higher hassle factor. >It would look pretty cool though.. :) > >One final thought.. It might be tough to find test data for the proposed >fine wire.. But you can generate your own.. Burn some. Does it support >combustion? How easy is it to damage the insulation by abrasion? > > >Regards, > >Matt- > > > > In a message dated 10/19/2006 1:31:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US writes: > > My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model airplane >servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on up. It is >probably > > like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones running >fans etc. > > > > These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. > > > > Does this sound acceptable? > > > > Ron Parigoris > > ============================== > > Ron: > > > > I would say NO. > > > > The reasons are: > > 1 - Cannot handle the current. > > Even if the aircraft wire and your wire are the same gage the insulation >cannot handle the current. > > > > 2 - Abrasion - Aircraft wire has a high resistance to abrasion. > > The thin stuff (R/C Servo wire) cannot handle it. > > > > 3 - Flammability - The wire you want to use does not meet flammability >requirements. > > It probably does not meet the fume requirements either. > > > > 4 - I know, I know - you are thinking experimental. > > Still not a reason to misplace good building practices or AC 43.13 2B > > > > 5 - Back to item #1 --- Cannot handle the current. > > The R/C servo wire is about 22 AWG. It is in short runs. And has next >to > > zero current ... Miliamps! > > Your position lights are probably in the area of 2 Amps Each ... And you >have > > three, so you are looking at about 6 Amps. > > > > > > > > Barry > > "Chop'd Liver" > > > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the >third > > time." > > Yamashiada > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 20, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: automotive alternator question - OT
Just when I thought I knew a little something from building airplanes and hanging out here for five years or so... Yesterday my wife was driving my son's 99 Hyundai when warning lights began to appear one by one- battery, emergency brake, air bag; then the speedometer and tach indications went to zero, and finally the engine itself quit running. She phoned me at the office, and I told her that she had just described a classic alternator failure with subsequent run-down of the remaining energy in the battery. We confirmed that the alternator belt had not broken, but there was little to do but call for help. Help arrived, gave her a jump start; she was able to drive part way to the repair shop when the same sequence repeated itself. The second jump start got her the rest of the way to the repair bay. We called today, expecting the bill to be large, but it was under $100. When I got there to talk to the mechanic, I told him I had expected an alternator replacement to be part of the plan. He assured me that only the battery was faulty, and that the alternator was "putting out 14.3" so all was well. I asked how the car could die electrically when the engine was running, and he gave me a sympathetic look and began to explain how generators put out direct current, but the new-fangled alternators put out _alternating current_ and they need a battery to keep them excited. I pretended to take it all in and thanked him, paid the bill, and told the wife to ride home close behind me, because with an ailing alternator, I likely had only the joules in the battery to make the half-hour trip in the dark. I did my best to keep the electrical loads light, as if running on the e-bus in the scud ;-) To my surprise, the alternator indeed seems to be charging normally, and the new battery installation seems to have mysteriously fixed things. Now, I know there is no way that a battery continually feeds current into an alternator to keep it going, else charging the battery from the alternator would be a losing proposition. And I certianly hope that there is no way a dead battery is going to somehow take out my dual alternator Z-13/8 architecture, but I cannot reconcile that hope with what seems to have happened to my car electrical system here. Tell me I'm not crazy, and that it doesn't take a battery to keep an alternator alive once excited (the same battery that minutes before cranked the engine for starting), that the battery is only there for filtering the 3-phase rectified DC when in cruise mode, and I'll believe you. But I'll still wonder what happened to the car yesterday... -Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 20, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Bill Boyd wrote: > But I'll still wonder what happened to the car > yesterday... > Bill, does the alternators B-lead connect at the battery post? I may be very wrong, but I seem to recall an old Nissan truck I owned being wired that way. If it is the case, a dirty battery cable termination would give exactly the symptoms you describe, and would be cured by replacing the battery (the connector gets jostled around, knocking out the corrosion long enough to make it home). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 21, 2006
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to
... Hello Matt: Wasn't that a bit of interesting information ... Amazing! Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 21, 2006
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
In a message dated 10/20/2006 8:33:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: Now, I know there is no way that a battery continually feeds current into an alternator to keep it going, else charging the battery from the alternator would be a losing proposition. And I certianly hope that there is no way a dead battery is going to somehow take out my dual alternator Z-13/8 architecture, but I cannot reconcile that hope with what seems to have happened to my car electrical system here. Tell me I'm not crazy, and that it doesn't take a battery to keep an alternator alive once excited (the same battery that minutes before cranked the engine for starting), that the battery is only there for filtering the 3-phase rectified DC when in cruise mode, and I'll believe you. But I'll still wonder what happened to the car yesterday... -Bill B ================================== Bill: There are MANY new things happening to cars today. As soon as you mentioned HYUNDAI I knew what your problem was... IS. It is NOT solved yet. The new battery will keep the car going for a few more weeks but the problem MAY surely pop up again. The battery was border line due to the problem and did require replacing, maybe not immediately. Still the new battery is a move in the right direction. You did not mention the year and model of the Hyundai. When I said new things happening to cars; there is a different way of utilizing a car's charging system today. The alternator is still the same and the voltage regulator is still the same but with car computer systems and trying to squeeze more HP from a smaller engine there is a new twist. The computer takes the alternator TOTALLY out of the electrical system and it does this for more of a DOWN TIME on the duty cycle. An alternator uses between 2 to 5 HP during operation. By taking the alternator out of the system you return that HP so it can be sent to the wheels and use less gas. Now, not all computerized cars do this ... what year and model is yours? Also, newer cars with an alternator CAN run without a battery. NOT for a very long time ... It is know as the Get Home Mode. In the OLD days with Generators this was the NORM. But, just like in a plane's system a GOOD battery is required to let the alternator have an output. If the battery dies there is NO voltage for the alternators field ... ergo ... No alternator output. New cars are similar but utilize a large value capacitor to TRY to keep the alternator running. The "TC" Time Constant is slow so IF you shed load it will TRY to get you home. No, I did not design this system so I don't know any more about it. I have a Hyundai and I have had the same problem and here is a hit. What is it, that I bitch about on planes all the time, that always starts the same old deadhead thought patterns and emails? Well, that is exactly what is wrong with your car. Repair Time - 15 minutes. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Thanks, Barry, Ernest, The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator. Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding and the whole explanation. I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode. Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day, with VOM in hand. Bob...? -Bill B On 10/21/06, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/20/2006 8:33:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: > Now, I know there is no way that a battery continually feeds current > into an alternator to keep it going, else charging the battery from > the alternator would be a losing proposition. And I certianly hope > that there is no way a dead battery is going to somehow take out my > dual alternator Z-13/8 architecture, but I cannot reconcile that hope > with what seems to have happened to my car electrical system here. > Tell me I'm not crazy, and that it doesn't take a battery to keep an > alternator alive once excited (the same battery that minutes before > cranked the engine for starting), that the battery is only there for > filtering the 3-phase rectified DC when in cruise mode, and I'll > believe you. But I'll still wonder what happened to the car > yesterday... > > -Bill B > ================================== > Bill: > > There are MANY new things happening to cars today. As soon as you mentioned > HYUNDAI I knew what your problem was... IS. > > It is NOT solved yet. The new battery will keep the car going for a few > more weeks but the problem MAY surely pop up again. The battery was border > line due to the problem and did require replacing, maybe not immediately. > Still the new battery is a move in the right direction. > > You did not mention the year and model of the Hyundai. > > When I said new things happening to cars; there is a different way of > utilizing a car's charging system today. The alternator is still the same > and the voltage regulator is still the same but with car computer systems > and trying to squeeze more HP from a smaller engine there is a new twist. > The computer takes the alternator TOTALLY out of the electrical system and > it does this for more of a DOWN TIME on the duty cycle. An alternator uses > between 2 to 5 HP during operation. By taking the alternator out of the > system you return that HP so it can be sent to the wheels and use less gas. > Now, not all computerized cars do this ... what year and model is yours? > > Also, newer cars with an alternator CAN run without a battery. NOT for a > very long time ... It is know as the Get Home Mode. In the OLD days with > Generators this was the NORM. But, just like in a plane's system a GOOD > battery is required to let the alternator have an output. If the battery > dies there is NO voltage for the alternators field ... ergo ... No > alternator output. New cars are similar but utilize a large value capacitor > to TRY to keep the alternator running. The "TC" Time Constant is slow so > IF you shed load it will TRY to get you home. No, I did not design this > system so I don't know any more about it. > > I have a Hyundai and I have had the same problem and here is a hit. What is > it, that I bitch about on planes all the time, that always starts the same > old deadhead thought patterns and emails? Well, that is exactly what is > wrong with your car. Repair Time - 15 minutes. > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third > time." > Yamashiada > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Date: Oct 21, 2006
First thing - you pay attention to those kind of things when you do your routine maintenance. Second, this is another good reason for Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual, or, with dual battery systems, dump #2 battery, rotate #1 into #2, and replace #1 every annual. The one habit we get into with cars is to try and milk every ounce of battery life we can and wait to replace them until they are dead in the water. There are many inexpensive battery options out there where you can replace every annual and not worry about it. Best Regards, Steve Thomas ____________________________________________________________________ On Oct 21, 2006, at 5:55 AM, Bill Boyd wrote: > > > Thanks, Barry, Ernest, > > The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator. > Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she > looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding > and the whole explanation. > > I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s > loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer > disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been > excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field > current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if > true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a > Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even > corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no > warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode. > > Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the > Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I > shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day, > with VOM in hand. Bob...? > > -Bill B > > On 10/21/06, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> In a message dated 10/20/2006 8:33:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: >> Now, I know there is no way that a battery continually feeds current >> into an alternator to keep it going, else charging the battery from >> the alternator would be a losing proposition. And I certianly hope >> that there is no way a dead battery is going to somehow take out my >> dual alternator Z-13/8 architecture, but I cannot reconcile that hope >> with what seems to have happened to my car electrical system here. >> Tell me I'm not crazy, and that it doesn't take a battery to keep an >> alternator alive once excited (the same battery that minutes before >> cranked the engine for starting), that the battery is only there for >> filtering the 3-phase rectified DC when in cruise mode, and I'll >> believe you. But I'll still wonder what happened to the car >> yesterday... >> >> -Bill B >> ================================== >> Bill: >> >> There are MANY new things happening to cars today. As soon as you >> mentioned >> HYUNDAI I knew what your problem was... IS. >> >> It is NOT solved yet. The new battery will keep the car going for >> a few >> more weeks but the problem MAY surely pop up again. The battery >> was border >> line due to the problem and did require replacing, maybe not >> immediately. >> Still the new battery is a move in the right direction. >> >> You did not mention the year and model of the Hyundai. >> >> When I said new things happening to cars; there is a different way of >> utilizing a car's charging system today. The alternator is still >> the same >> and the voltage regulator is still the same but with car computer >> systems >> and trying to squeeze more HP from a smaller engine there is a new >> twist. >> The computer takes the alternator TOTALLY out of the electrical >> system and >> it does this for more of a DOWN TIME on the duty cycle. An >> alternator uses >> between 2 to 5 HP during operation. By taking the alternator out >> of the >> system you return that HP so it can be sent to the wheels and use >> less gas. >> Now, not all computerized cars do this ... what year and model is >> yours? >> >> Also, newer cars with an alternator CAN run without a battery. >> NOT for a >> very long time ... It is know as the Get Home Mode. In the OLD >> days with >> Generators this was the NORM. But, just like in a plane's system >> a GOOD >> battery is required to let the alternator have an output. If the >> battery >> dies there is NO voltage for the alternators field ... ergo ... No >> alternator output. New cars are similar but utilize a large value >> capacitor >> to TRY to keep the alternator running. The "TC" Time Constant is >> slow so >> IF you shed load it will TRY to get you home. No, I did not >> design this >> system so I don't know any more about it. >> >> I have a Hyundai and I have had the same problem and here is a >> hit. What is >> it, that I bitch about on planes all the time, that always starts >> the same >> old deadhead thought patterns and emails? Well, that is exactly >> what is >> wrong with your car. Repair Time - 15 minutes. >> >> >> >> >> Barry >> "Chop'd Liver" >> >> "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them >> the third >> time." >> Yamashiada >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Date: Oct 21, 2006
On 21 Oct 2006, at 08:55, Bill Boyd wrote: > > > Thanks, Barry, Ernest, > > The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator. > Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she > looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding > and the whole explanation. > > I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s > loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer > disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been > excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field > current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if > true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a > Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even > corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no > warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode. > > Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the > Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I > shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day, > with VOM in hand. Bob...? It would be interesting to know where the field current comes from, and where the various automotive systems are getting their power (i.e. lights, fuel pumps, EFI, etc). If the "smart" voltage regulator actually shuts the alternator down during some periods, and the alternator had become electrically disconnected from the battery due to corrosion on the battery post, and the field current was getting its power from the alternator output, then it is plausible that there would be no way to start the alternator back up again. But, how were the other systems able to get the power they needed? Will the other systems run at lower voltages than is required to start the alternator back up again? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: 80A Fuse on Z-13
>Coming off the starter contactor in the Z-13 diagram, there s an 80A fuse >between the current limiter and the starter contactor. Electrical systems >are my weakness but is this an in-line fuse? If so who stocks the 80A? See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html Note 10 (page Z-9) of: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf Also see http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List/AeroElectric-List_FAQ.pdf and do a search on "JJS" The JJS/JJN series fuses looked like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/70-80fusekit.jpg but were not terribly robust. Today, for a 40A alternator I think I'd recommend a MAX60 with an in-line fuse-holder like: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/MaxiFuse_Holder.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/MAXI_Specs.pdf or the ANL-30 limiter as described in the articles above. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Acceptable to use thin non aircraft wire to coil
of relays? > >We spent quite a bit of time trying to keep the panel of our Europa >Monowheel free of clutter. > >There is a convenient piece of real estate between occupants in the >ceiling. > >We are thinking pretty hard about making it a control panel and putting >small switches up there that would control coil of relays to run non >critical items, like position lights, strobes, landing light etc. > >My partner has access to wire that is bout as thick as a model airplane >servo wire. They come in twisted pairs, from 3 pairs on up. It is probably >like the twisted wires you see inside computers, like the ones running >fans etc. > >These wires would be running along side of headphone/mic wiring. > >Does this sound acceptable? Depends on who you talk to. Wire, or more specifically the INSULATION on wire has evolved tremendously since Walter put his first generator and battery on an airplane. There are folks who will tell you that the only acceptable wires for replacement/new construction are modern products embraced by the military/certified aviation communities. You can still buy Mil-W-76 cotton weave over rubber insulated wire used on Walter's first electrified aircraft . . . very popular with folks restoring old cars and want them to be original. By the same token, one could quite legally replace a damaged or aged wire in a 1956 C-140 with Mil-W-76 wire as well . . . it's on the original TC, most of the wires in the airplane are 60+ years old, and a NEW piece of Mil-W-76 wire isn't going to be a risk any greater than the wires already in place. Further, if one wished to restore an old airplane to original stock, the "ratty old wires" lasted 50+ years the first time around . . . no reason to be extra-ordinarily suspicious of them the next time around. Obviously, modern insulations are lighter, environmentally tougher and easier to find. But just because it's "modern" doesn't make it an attractive choice. It seems that some materials thought to be an insulation-of-choice turned out to have passed all the tests we did for wires in the past but exhibit NEW characteristics that participate in some spectacular insulation failures. As a purely practical matter, wires smaller than 22AWG are a pain in the arse for airframe wiring. We moved a lot of wire from 22AWG to 24AWG in production and the folks who have to work with it are less than complimentary of "those @#$@#$!^ engineers . . ." The stuff is just physically too-small/too-flexible/too-fragile to work well in the hammer-n-tongs environment that is a production line. You don't cite the pedigree of the wire's insulation and the sizes you describe don't sound like 22AWG (or larger). My recommendation is that you install wires no smaller than 22AWG (when you have a choice) and use Tefzel (Mil-W- 22759/16 or /32). This stuff is easy to find, easy to work with and has an EXCELLENT track record in aircraft and many other applications. I'm not suggesting that the wire's you described are automatically a poor choice but I will suggest that Tefzel insulated wire in 22AWG or larger is exceedingly user friendly both for installation and cost of ownership. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: What Now?
Hey guys, I'm at a complete loss to understand, and fix, my Altrak. I've got 70 hours on my RV-4 now and so far have been unable to successfully troubleshoot the Altrak. once in stable flight I push the button and HOLD ON....it tries to do a loop everytime! I've changed the servo and the programmer/brain and even TruTrak is a t aloss now to try and help me figure it out. there is literally nothing else to change...except maybe the button/switch....or rewire it from scratch. I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions. On the positive side I'm getting pretty good at holding altitude manually. Ron N8ZD(at)yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: What Now?
Surely you have already changed the connections to the servo, but this sounds like it is connected so the servo goes opposite of what the Altrak wants it to go. If it was connected "backwards" then when the Altrak commanded it to move so as to lower the nose, it would actually raise the nose, which would cause the Altrak to tell it to lower the nose even more, which would cause it to raise the nose even more - you get the idea. But this is so obvious, that you must have already swapped the connections... Dick Tasker Ron Patterson wrote: > Hey guys, > > I'm at a complete loss to understand, and fix, my Altrak. I've got 70 > hours on my RV-4 now and so far have been unable to successfully > troubleshoot the Altrak. once in stable flight I push the button and > HOLD ON....it tries to do a loop everytime! > > I've changed the servo and the programmer/brain and even TruTrak is a > t aloss now to try and help me figure it out. there is literally > nothing else to change...except maybe the button/switch....or rewire > it from scratch. > > I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions. On the positive side I'm > getting pretty good at holding altitude manually. > > Ron > N8ZD(at)yahoo.com > >* > > >* > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Follow-up: My son took the car this morning while I was out flying around, and before I could check the charging system with a DVM to verify alternator output. The ensuing events restored my confidence in the laws of physics and what understanding I thought I had in how alternators work (smart regulators being another story, I will concede). The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is installed. I hate to flog a new battery into deep discharge the first day I own it, but at least this time it happened near home, and just as I thought it would/should with an alternator that almost had to be inoperative, given the scenario yesterday. Restores my faith in my understanding of electrical systems, but not in shade tree mechanics. Probably nothing to see here, folks... just move along... nothing to see here... Sorry to clog list bandwidth with a problem like this, but the guy really had me doubting my basic understanding of alternators and therefore the integrity of my OBAM charging system as well. -Bill B On 10/21/06, Kevin Horton wrote: > > On 21 Oct 2006, at 08:55, Bill Boyd wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks, Barry, Ernest, > > > > The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator. > > Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she > > looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding > > and the whole explanation. > > > > I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s > > loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer > > disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been > > excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field > > current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if > > true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a > > Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even > > corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no > > warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode. > > > > Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the > > Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I > > shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day, > > with VOM in hand. Bob...? > > It would be interesting to know where the field current comes from, > and where the various automotive systems are getting their power > (i.e. lights, fuel pumps, EFI, etc). > > If the "smart" voltage regulator actually shuts the alternator down > during some periods, and the alternator had become electrically > disconnected from the battery due to corrosion on the battery post, > and the field current was getting its power from the alternator > output, then it is plausible that there would be no way to start the > alternator back up again. > > But, how were the other systems able to get the power they needed? > Will the other systems run at lower voltages than is required to > start the alternator back up again? > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 21, 2006
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 10/19/06
"I believe the problem with your comparison is that the GXM 30 outputs encoded information and is only compatible with certain Garmin navigator GPSes. Your "mini-computer" will not know what to do with the signals unless you write software to take the data and display it. So you need the WX Worx, which does that translation for you into a format compatible with a Windows computer. What computer are you using, and have you tested it for interference with your COM radios on all channels? I ask, because I'm going down that same road with an 8" Lilliput display and an Epia single-board computer. Dave Morris" Dave: Sorry to hear the GMX 30 is not what I need; I thought it sounded too good to be true! I'm assuming the Garmin 300XL is not one of the "compatible" Garmin receivers, but as yet I've been unable to find a list of those that are supposed to work with the GMX---the 396/496 etc, I suspect is about it. I am using a Logic Supply VIA EPIA Mini-ITX mainboard with a ruggedized 20G hard drive and a Phylon 8" LCD display all on 12v. I'm running AnywhereMap software on Windows XP with an inexpensive dash mount GPS. The system seems stable and runs fast with no delays in software functions. Seems to work well in my car and in the air in a friends Piper Arrow. I wasn't along for the test flight so I can't speak to any radio interference, but my friend didn't mention any difficulties. I'll check with him and see if he noted anything unusual. I'm now trying to tie in a color bullet camera to the system. It will connect directly to the Phylon so real time video is no problem, but I'd like to use the Mini to record video as well. Haven't worked that out yet but I believe a video card and software will allow saving video to the hard drive. Don't know yet if the Mini has enough computational power to handle both the nav and video record functions simultaneously without dropping one or the other. Any ideas about that? P.S. The Phylon 8" display is very nice but apparently has been discontinued. Logic Supply still sells the Phylon 7" display, however. Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Relays.
Date: Oct 22, 2006
Am wiring probe heat and taxi/ldg lights. Should I be using a relay or will straight through the switch suffice? Both draw 8 Amps. Using 700 1-3 switches from B & C. Thanks Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 22, 2006
Subject: Re: Relays.
In a message dated 10/22/2006 12:22:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com writes: Am wiring probe heat and taxi/ldg lights. Should I be using a relay or will straight through the switch suffice? Both draw 8 Amps. Using 700 1-3 switches from B & C. Thanks Chris Byrne SYDNEY ================================ Chris: I strongly believe in the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal and fewer components with less failure points sure supports that principal. I would use a Toggle Switch Circuit Breaker (CB), install wire of sufficient design (Mil-W) to handle your power requirements Now and in the Future and use a good crimp lug & tool. Doing it this way you eliminate the separate CB and the associated screws & lugs ... And work. And you have a high quality switch as part of the CB, one wire run, maybe two if you do not trust the plane to be the ground side ... I don't! Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 22, 2006
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
In a message dated 10/21/2006 7:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: . The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is installed. ============================================ Kevin: The problem is NOT the alternator! Your alternator is in PERFECT CONDITION, it is WORKING. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 22, 2006
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, lists(at)stevet.net writes: this is another good reason for Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual =========================== Is it REALLY you Bob that started this Wives Tail? I would say Old Wives Tail, but you are not that old yet. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Barry, You are welcome to email me direct with your theory on what, besides an alternator malfunction, will allow two batteries in 2 days to be sucked dry during operation of the vehicle. This has reached the point where it is of dubious aircraft electrical relevance and should be taken off-list. And if you'll call me "Bill" instead of "Kevin," I'll resist the inexplicable urge to call you "George" or Paul" ;-) -Bill On 10/22/06, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/21/2006 7:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: > . The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We > drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will > remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is > installed. > ============================================ > Kevin: > > The problem is NOT the alternator! > > Your alternator is in PERFECT CONDITION, it is WORKING. > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third > time." > Yamashiada > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
If I recall correctly, Bob advocates periodic battery replacement (TWO year interval) in lieu of more involved capacity testing, which some of us find less convenient. I for one have found plenty of use for the Odyssey "pulls" in my lawn tractors, emergency home generator, and amateur radio applications. I find his advice eminently practical for my purposes, and will continue to follow it. -Bill B On 10/22/06, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, > lists(at)stevet.net writes: > this is another good reason for > Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual > =========================== > Is it REALLY you Bob that started this Wives Tail? I would say Old Wives > Tail, but you are not that old yet. > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third > time." > Yamashiada > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Relays.
> > >Am wiring probe heat and taxi/ldg lights. >Should I be using a relay or will straight through the switch suffice? >Both draw 8 Amps. >Using 700 1-3 switches from B & C. Have you reviewed any of the architecture drawings in http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf You will note that relays and contactors are relatively scarce in the drawings. Their use is indicated where you need to (1) control currents that are too large for the panel mounted switch, (2) the point where switching needs to take place is remotely mounted from pilot's reach on the panel or (3) you need synchronized, multi- circuit switching to satisfy a design goal that might be met with something like a 4-pole, double throw relay. The S700 series switches are suited to the tasks you've cited. For the vast majority of airplanes flying, the use of relays is on a par with applications shown in the Z-figures. On occasion, you may encounter a system installation that calls for relays . . . an example is illustrated here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/TooManyRelays.jpg It's doubtful that whoever designed this system had "simplicity" in mind. Flight system reliability for so complex an array o relays leaves much to be desired. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: What Now?
>Hey guys, > >I'm at a complete loss to understand, and fix, my Altrak. I've got 70 >hours on my RV-4 now and so far have been unable to successfully >troubleshoot the Altrak. once in stable flight I push the button and HOLD >ON....it tries to do a loop everytime! > >I've changed the servo and the programmer/brain and even TruTrak is a t >aloss now to try and help me figure it out. there is literally nothing >else to change...except maybe the button/switch....or rewire it from scratch. > >I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions. On the positive side I'm getting >pretty good at holding altitude manually. > >Ron Can you send me a copy of the installation manual (or tell me where it can be download)? Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)beechowners.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Good Morning Yamashiada, or Chopped Liver, or Kevin, Or Bill or Whomever, Why not keep the discussion on the Aero Electric list. Those of us who have absolutely no electrical knowledge are puzzled by the problem. Who knows, we MAY learn something that WILL help us in our aeronautical endeavors. Very Sincerely Interested, Old Bob --- Bill Boyd wrote: > > > Barry, > > You are welcome to email me direct with your theory > on what, besides > an alternator malfunction, will allow two batteries > in 2 days to be > sucked dry during operation of the vehicle. This > has reached the > point where it is of dubious aircraft electrical > relevance and should > be taken off-list. > > And if you'll call me "Bill" instead of "Kevin," > I'll resist the > inexplicable urge to call you "George" or Paul" ;-) > > -Bill > > On 10/22/06, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/21/2006 7:48:22 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > > sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: > > . The call to come give him a jump start-came > about dusk. We > > drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in > town, where it will > > remain until a new alternator (one that makes > current ;-) is > > installed. > > ============================================ > > Kevin: > > > > The problem is NOT the alternator! > > > > Your alternator is in PERFECT CONDITION, it is > WORKING. > > > > > > Barry > > "Chop'd Liver" > > > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second > time, kick them the third > > time." > > Yamashiada > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > Web Forums! > > > Admin. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
>In a message dated 10/20/2006 8:33:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, >sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes: >Now, I know there is no way that a battery continually feeds current >into an alternator to keep it going, else charging the battery from >the alternator would be a losing proposition. Alternators generally need a modicum of start-up voltage to come alive. Once up and running, they'll continue to put out useful energy within limits (1) hit them with a strong inrush current and they may "stall" and (2) without a battery across the b-lead output, the quality of delivered energy is compromised with combinations of additional noise and/or loss of voltage regulation stability. > And I certianly hope >that there is no way a dead battery is going to somehow take out my >dual alternator Z-13/8 architecture, but I cannot reconcile that hope >with what seems to have happened to my car electrical system here. There's no way a battery or lack thereof will kill a good alternator. >Tell me I'm not crazy, and that it doesn't take a battery to keep an >alternator alive once excited (the same battery that minutes before >cranked the engine for starting), that the battery is only there for >filtering the 3-phase rectified DC when in cruise mode, and I'll >believe you. But I'll still wonder what happened to the car >yesterday... The troubleshooting problem is a transfer of energy study. And many times, what appears to be "obvious" is lacking in data and peripheral information to make an accurate diagnosis. For example, I spent three days this week working on a flickering light problem on a $gazillion$ bizjet wherein there was a strong consensus that adding some big fat capacitors to reduce the intensity of a bus voltage perturbation would reduce the apparent intensity of the flicker. Spent $700 of the boss's money on some automotive super-caps (used in those ear-pounding sound systems that are misguided progeny are so fond of). Eureka! 1 Farad of capacity across the 50A thumper did indeed reduce bus perturbations from 4 volts pk-pk to 1 volt pk-pk. But the flickering was WORSE! Seems the eye was influenced more by duration than by gross intensity when observing 25 mS wide variations in light output. Even tho the intensity was reduced by 75%, the width of the perturbation increased by 2x to 50 mS. Who wuda thunk it? The point is that energy does not go wandering about like a 4-year old in a toy store. It moves based on predictable pathways and produces varying effects based on how the energy is dissipated, measured or perceived. >-Bill B > >================================== >Bill: > >There are MANY new things happening to cars today. As soon as you >mentioned HYUNDAI I knew what your problem was... IS. > >It is NOT solved yet. The new battery will keep the car going for a few >more weeks but the problem MAY surely pop up again. The battery was >border line due to the problem and did require replacing, maybe not >immediately. Still the new battery is a move in the right direction. > >You did not mention the year and model of the Hyundai. > >When I said new things happening to cars; there is a different way of >utilizing a car's charging system today. The alternator is still the same >and the voltage regulator is still the same but with car computer systems >and trying to squeeze more HP from a smaller engine there is a new >twist. The computer takes the alternator TOTALLY out of the electrical >system and it does this for more of a DOWN TIME on the duty cycle. An >alternator uses between 2 to 5 HP during operation. By taking the >alternator out of the system you return that HP so it can be sent to the >wheels and use less gas. Now, not all computerized cars do this ... what >year and model is yours? Interesting. I spent about 10 minutes in a Google search to see if anyone on the 'net has discussed this concept and was unable to locate any articles that spoke of scheduling the car's alternator output on-the-fly. Can you point us to one or more sources for information on this control philosophy? > >Also, newer cars with an alternator CAN run without a battery. NOT for a >very long time ... It is know as the Get Home Mode. In the OLD days with >Generators this was the NORM. But, just like in a plane's system a GOOD >battery is required to let the alternator have an output. If the battery >dies there is NO voltage for the alternators field ... ergo ... No >alternator output. New cars are similar but utilize a large value >capacitor to TRY to keep the alternator running. Also interesting but new to me. The physics of capacitor function suggest that having one on the output of an alternator is a functional substitute for having a battery available . . . hence the use of large capacitors on the output of the SD-8 for noise reduction. But once an alternator is 'on line' why is there any need/value for having a capacitor support the alternator's field circuit when the alternator is quite capable of supporting its own field just as generators would support their own fields. > The "TC" Time Constant is slow so IF you shed load it will TRY to get > you home. No, I did not design this system so I don't know any more about it. > >I have a Hyundai and I have had the same problem and here is a hit. What >is it, that I bitch about on planes all the time, that always starts the >same old deadhead thought patterns and emails? Well, that is exactly what >is wrong with your car. Repair Time - 15 minutes. Hmmmm . . . I'm lost. Are we talking about a bad capacitor, alternator or battery? If a bad capacitor, are you suggesting that failure of the capacitor causes the alternator to mis-behave in a manner that prevents it from doing it's alternator-like duties in keeping the battery charged and the lights on? Can you offer more data on this? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
>In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, >lists(at)stevet.net writes: >this is another good reason for >Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual > >=========================== >Is it REALLY you Bob that started this Wives Tail? I would say Old Wives >Tail, but you are not that old yet. Is is really you Barry who is personalizing this to a matter of my age or judgement? Before you drag the discussion down to this level, may I suggest you review the archives on the topic and offer us any new insights about the simple-ideas that support the philosophy. If one or more ideas is in error or have been mis-applied, we'd all be grateful for your re-direction. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Permanent Magnet vs. Series Wound...
>I am considering purchasing a hydraulic power pack for a landing >application. The power pack comes in two type: Permanent Magnet and >Series wound. I notice the series wound take more current for the same >psi. What are the pros/cons of each type? It's almost a toss-up. If you're system raises and lowers gear based on reversal of pump, then a PM motor is harder to reverse and uses less reliable contactors (dpdt). Further, PM motors have higher inrush currents and are harder on contactors and put larger perturbations onto the bus when they're energized. No an issue for starters since they're used before anything else is expected to be functioning. Landing gear motors could be operated many times per flight cycle (touch and goes) and during times when other electro-whizzies would prefer not to be disturbed. Series wound motors reverse by selecting one of two windings (CW or CCW). They're nicely controlled by simple SPST contactors and have lower inrush currents. My personal favorite is still series wound. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Boots on Battery Contactor.
> > >Bob and Listers. > >With reference to the discussion that has been going on re this subject. > >My starter and battery contactor both came from B & C. The battery contactor >has boots the starter contactor does not. Got them 12 months ago. > >I emailed B & C about the boots on the battery contactor and got the >following reply. ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >The S701-1 and S701-2 are the same basic contactor. The coil is isolated >from the case, therefore the case need not be grounded. Both coil leads are >brought out to their respective #10 studs on the side of the cylinder. Note >that the pre-wired S701-1 coil receives its power through the Red jumper >from the battery post, and its ground through the Master Switch (which is >connected to the other #10 stud). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >Now, if I knew how the switches worked I would have been able to see that >the wire from the Master switch was a GND wire and not a +12V wire. >Which is different than the starter contactor, the wire from the start >switch is +12V and the starter contactor gets its GND from the >airframe.(Z13-8) > >So no need to grind the boots off the battery contactor > >Maybe this will clear it up. Aha! I thought we were discussing the S702 STARTER contactor that MUST find a coil connection through the mounting feet. If the discussion is limited only to the battery and crossfeed contactors, then yes . . . the boots are not an electrical issue but it would still be interesting to know why they were added after about 75 years of successful service sans boots. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: What Now?
Bob, Here is the URL: http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/AltrakVSInstallandUserGuide.pdf Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> Hey guys, >> >> I'm at a complete loss to understand, and fix, my Altrak. I've got 70 >> hours on my RV-4 now and so far have been unable to successfully >> troubleshoot the Altrak. once in stable flight I push the button and >> HOLD ON....it tries to do a loop everytime! >> >> I've changed the servo and the programmer/brain and even TruTrak is a >> t aloss now to try and help me figure it out. there is literally >> nothing else to change...except maybe the button/switch....or rewire >> it from scratch. >> >> I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions. On the positive side I'm >> getting pretty good at holding altitude manually. >> >> Ron > > Can you send me a copy of the installation manual > (or tell me where it can be download)? > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
> >Thanks, Barry, Ernest, > >The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator. >Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she >looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding >and the whole explanation. > >I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s >loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer >disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been >excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field >current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if >true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a >Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even >corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no >warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode. > >Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the >Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I >shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day, >with VOM in hand. Bob...? Excellent question and yes, alternators will run self excited sans battery with limits as discussed in another post. It was a recognition of those limits that prompted the e-bus philosophy. Should the alternator become unavailable due to main contactor failure and loss of the battery's stabilizing influence on alternator performance, there was still an alternate means by which useful electro-whizzies could be powered for a sweat-free continuation of flight to a friendly destination. One might still argue about gross battery reliability but I'm aware of no battery failures in an RG (or flooded battery) that could not have been mitigated by proper installation, operation and good PM whether one chooses to monitor battery capacity or replace-every-year. Z-13/8 with the self excitation feature adds yet another layer of confidence for sweat-free flying irrespective of the loss of any major system component. The discussion about the automotive system is germane to our deliberations but has yet to offer data from which a considered conclusion may be drawn. Data like schematics, measurements (is the battery seeing a high level of discharge while the key is off and all accessories shut down?), etc. The honorable Albert Einstein once opined, "Most of the fundamental ideas of science are essentially simple, and may, as a rule, be expressed in a language comprehensible to everyone." . . . and Lord Kelvin offered this, "When you can measure what you are speaking about and express it in numbers, you know something about it." The the path to understanding will not advance in useful ways without embracing these two philosophies and then doing the homework necessary to get the data. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: What Now?
> > >Bob, >Here is the URL: >http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/AltrakVSInstallandUserGuide.pdf Thanks. I'll study this but later today. We're having a gather'n o' the clan at Aunt Judy's this afternoon and I'm doing some of the cooking. Need to go fire up the oven. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
> >Follow-up: > >My son took the car this morning while I was out flying around, and >before I could check the charging system with a DVM to verify >alternator output. The ensuing events restored my confidence in the >laws of physics and what understanding I thought I had in how >alternators work (smart regulators being another story, I will >concede). The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We >drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will >remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is >installed. > >I hate to flog a new battery into deep discharge the first day I own >it, but at least this time it happened near home, and just as I >thought it would/should with an alternator that almost had to be >inoperative, given the scenario yesterday. Restores my faith in my >understanding of electrical systems, but not in shade tree mechanics. > >Probably nothing to see here, folks... just move along... nothing to see >here... > >Sorry to clog list bandwidth with a problem like this, but the guy >really had me doubting my basic understanding of alternators and >therefore the integrity of my OBAM charging system as well. Bill, If you can keep the core and send it to me, I'll reimburse your shipping and core value expenses. I'd like to put the carcass under the oscilloscope as it were . . . Bob . . . >-Bill B > >On 10/21/06, Kevin Horton wrote: >> >>On 21 Oct 2006, at 08:55, Bill Boyd wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Thanks, Barry, Ernest, >> > >> > The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator. >> > Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she >> > looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding >> > and the whole explanation. >> > >> > I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s >> > loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer >> > disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been >> > excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field >> > current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if >> > true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a >> > Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even >> > corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no >> > warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode. >> > >> > Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the >> > Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I >> > shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day, >> > with VOM in hand. Bob...? >> >>It would be interesting to know where the field current comes from, >>and where the various automotive systems are getting their power >>(i.e. lights, fuel pumps, EFI, etc). >> >>If the "smart" voltage regulator actually shuts the alternator down >>during some periods, and the alternator had become electrically >>disconnected from the battery due to corrosion on the battery post, >>and the field current was getting its power from the alternator >>output, then it is plausible that there would be no way to start the >>alternator back up again. >> >>But, how were the other systems able to get the power they needed? >>Will the other systems run at lower voltages than is required to >>start the alternator back up again? >> >>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >>Ottawa, Canada >>http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 >> >> >> >> >> > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: explosion proof fans
An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent in the air and some sparks. However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an RV-sized paint booth? -- Tom S., RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
Tom, If you were talking hi VOC paints, the fans would have to be looked at very closely. In the case of AFS paints, there is no fire hazard. On the question of fan capacity, I found two 20 x 20 inch household fans more than adequate. You can put furnace filters in front of them that have a #600 rating by 3M that will stop any color from going to the other side. How much capacity depends largely on the volume of spray and how much of the plane you intend to spray at one time. I'm painting in the basic disassembed state, so the capacity only requires the filters get changed out 5 or 6 times during the whole operation. If you were to paint the whole plane at one time, I'd think you'd need 4 fans going all at the same time and 8 good filters at the inlet end, tho I'd not recommend trying such a large scope of painting if you're new to the task. It's a lot different than doing a car. I have a painting page if you're interested in an inside booth design. http://www.macsmachine.com/html/paint.htm Regards, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at 85 hours and just about done painting. sarg314 wrote: > > An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark > an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent > in the air and some sparks. > However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's > no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to > generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a > paint booth? > > Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > RV-sized paint booth? > > -- > Tom S., RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Wait - there's more! You wanted data, so I went out and got you some. Hauled my son and my DVM out to the car repair place and jump-started it for some measurements... Battery reads 14.3 v after jump-starting. Wait- it's dropping, all the way to the low 12's. Now it's back up to 14.3, but just for a moment or two. Now it's dropping all the way to 8 volts. Now back to 14.3 again. Every time the alternator comes alive I hear a slight chirp from the serpentine belt just like when an A/C compressor kicks in, but without the clack of the magnetic clutch. Removal of battery terminal connection when the battery voltage is in the 12 volt range kills the engine cold. Prolonged observation of the battery voltage at idle and at various revving rpm's and with and without headlight loads convinced me there was no discernible pattern to the alternator coming back online- just random. Maybe Barry's contentions (excuse pun) are somewhat correct about a fancy regulator in there somewhere, a quasi-intelligent (dumb-ass in this case ;-) circuit. Not sure there will be a carcass to ship you, Bob. Sorry I didn't have a scope to look at waveforms and make a guess about diode health. Google is not showing me anything about this behavior in Hyundais, but my search technique may need refinement. I have at least some info to pass along to the repeir guys tomorrow morning, but I can;'t help but think, Now what?! I'd like to hard wire the alternator to the battery and ignition switch like an intelligent designer, but I fear the possible mayhem that might wreak with the onboard computer and idiot light system. Not liking my alternatives much at this point. Bad on Hyundai for a weak design, I think. -Bill B > Bill, > > If you can keep the core and send it to me, I'll reimburse > your shipping and core value expenses. I'd like to put the > carcass under the oscilloscope as it were . . . > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
LarryMcFarland wrote: > > > Tom, > If you were talking hi VOC paints, the fans would have to be looked at > very closely. In the case of AFS paints, there is no fire hazard. Larry: I know what a VOC is, but what's an AFS paint? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
Tom, I took my "box fans'' apart and found that they were brushless. Thus, there should not be a concern about igniting solvent vapors. Richard Dudley sarg314 wrote: > > An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark > an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent > in the air and some sparks. > However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's > no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to > generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a > paint booth? > > Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > RV-sized paint booth? > > -- > Tom S., RV-6A > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
AFS paint is a water based polyurethane paint. See http://www.stewartshangar21.aero/AFS.htm Click on "Stewart Systems" to the left of the page. Good paint, no hazardous fumes. Dick Tasker sarg314 wrote: > Larry: > I know what a VOC is, but what's an AFS paint? -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
While you are correct about the brushless aspect, there can still be a concern about igniting solvent vapors. If some part of the motor reaches the flash temperature of the vapor in question, you can ignite the vapor. Flammable vapors do NOT always need an open flame or spark to ignite! Be careful! Dick Tasker Richard Dudley wrote: > > > Tom, > I took my "box fans'' apart and found that they were brushless. Thus, > there should not be a concern about igniting solvent vapors. > Richard Dudley > > sarg314 wrote: > >> >> An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark >> an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable >> solvent in the air and some sparks. >> However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't >> they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's >> no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to >> generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a >> paint booth? >> >> Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for >> an RV-sized paint booth? >> >> -- >> Tom S., RV-6A >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2006
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
Tom, Aircraft Finishing Systems has a water thinned urethane paint that is popular among the homebuilt aircraft community. It was designed to satisfy EPA requirements, is nearly odor free, fireproof and has a better safety record than regular paints. http://www.stewartshangar21.aero/AFS.htm Larry McFarland sarg314 wrote: > > LarryMcFarland wrote: > >> >> >> Tom, >> If you were talking hi VOC paints, the fans would have to be looked >> at very closely. In the case of AFS paints, there is no fire hazard. > > > Larry: > I know what a VOC is, but what's an AFS paint? > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
From: <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
Hello Tom "So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an RV-sized paint booth?" I can tell you what I am doing, perhaps it will help. I sewed up a 10 foot long, 8 foot wide and 6.5 foot tall paint booth made out of PVC clear plastic on the top and sides, and thick Visqueen on the bottom. On the small door of our rented hangar, I mounted an attic fan, one of those with mushroom dome. Sorry i don't know CFM, got it from a neighbor and it was new. If you took a look at Home Depot offerings, and went half way between normal stocked offerings, you would be pretty close. Then I made a 1x2" frame around it that is the precise size of furnace filters, think they are 24 x 30 or 24 x32, just stock Home Depot stock. I have Velcro attached to the 1x2s and have an opening in the tent that precise size with velcro on it. The fan is brushless AC and had a thermostat, I bypassed thermostat. Pretty unscientific, but I had concerns of explosion, and did a bit of fooling trying to get some propane to get set off by fan. I have a reasonable amount of experience building Hot Air balloon burners, and making a pilot light that is reasonable easy to light, and will not very easily get blown out has given a pretty good insight on what and how to set off a mixture. Anyway I was unsuccessful to get it to set off an explosive mixture. My plastic creating static is of more concern. Even if it did get set off by motor, I put an expanded metal screen over hole in door (also critter protection) that in conjunction with filter, I am pretty confident it would act as a flame arrestor if the fan did in fact set off a mixture. OK back to design, I have three 10 foot aluminium tubes supported by florescent fixture large link chains. Now the entire side opposite the exit is velcroed in place, I figured if it works well, which it does I can add a section to house the entire large parts of my Europa. The end has a 7 foot wide, 6 foot high piece of quilt (or pillow) style white woven fill. There are 2 densities sold at most fabric stores, I used the heavier. I sewed up a transition from this huge size "Pseudo Filter" to a 30" round that I put over my 30" floor stand 3 speed Home Depot fan. I need to keep it on low, and choke off ~ 1/2 of the wire mesh of the 30" fan or else it will blow out the seams with way too much pressure. This area of fan is under suction, so i just put a piece of visqueen to act as a choke, it stays put till fan is turned off. The center aluminium thin tubes can hold up perhaps 25 pounds with no pressure inside, and probably a hundred with pressure. Works great, rolls up into a 10 foot high Q-Tip bout a foot in diameter when not in use. If you keep mixture too lean, it will not ignite. It takes not much time to rid tent of fumes. I have far more concern, not of attic fan, or static, but I put 2 dual 500 watt quartz halogen floor stand Home depot lights inside the tent with me. If I were to turn around and spray paint direct into the lamps, think would be a nice blowtorchin going on or if tent was filled, worst. If you were to spill solvent on floor, and lamp fell onto it same effect. I am comfortable enough with my setup. Have always another person around, and a smother the painter on fire blanket around. Side note, we built a 10 foot by 20 foot tent to build plane in. To heat, we use a 150,000 kerosene heater. It is a torpedo design but uses a Becket burner. To get clean air into tent, made a heat exchanger. We use a 2000CFM squirrel cage blower to pull fresh air from outside through a thin wall aluminium expandable hose, through a electrostatic filter, then it is wound inside a stove pipe connected to heater. Works great. Anyway as far as painting, if it is a bit cold inside hangar, I can plumb this clean heat to 30" floor stand intake, warms things right up. BTW since there is so much surface area of my large filter, airspeed is very slow through most of tent. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: EFIS D-10 Question
I know this should go to Dynon but I have a question on mounting the remote compass module. The instructions say to mount this module as close to the orientation of the D-10 unit as possible. Given that on an RV-6 the instrument panel is tilted almost 10 degrees forward, wouldn't it make more sense and be more accurate to mount it on the longeron line (which happens to be the horizontal line of flight in cruise)? Why does Dynon say to mount the compass at the same angle of tilt? Have you RV-6 drivers who've used the remote Dynon compass mounted it with the tilt? Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Wiring and wiring. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS D-10 Question
Date: Oct 23, 2006
On 23 Oct 2006, at 24:47, DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > > > I know this should go to Dynon but I have a question on mounting > the remote > compass module. The instructions say to mount this module as close > to the > orientation of the D-10 unit as possible. Given that on an RV-6 the > instrument panel is tilted almost 10 degrees forward, wouldn't it > make more > sense and be more accurate to mount it on the longeron line (which > happens > to be the horizontal line of flight in cruise)? Why does Dynon say > to mount > the compass at the same angle of tilt? Have you RV-6 drivers > who've used > the remote Dynon compass mounted it with the tilt? Thanks. The remote compass module works by measuring the components of the magnetic field in three dimensions. Then, they use the aircraft attitude to calculate the direction of magnetic north. The calculation that the EFIS does assumes that the remote compass module is at the same attitude as the EFIS. If it is not, the heading accuracy will be reduced. See: http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1145885596 Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: alternator autopsy
Bob: I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. I asked about the possibility of an off-site regulator function in the car's computer, and he said as far as he knew, only Dodge has tried that stunt. We will soon find out if he's right. I figure he's going to want the old alternator for a core at the auto parts place, but perhaps we could gut the regulator out first, if that would be of any help to you? Tell me what you're thinking and I'll try to accomodate. Maybe I can pay the core charge up front and recoup it later when you've returned everything. Thanks for all your help with airplanes and things electric. -Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
> >Wait - there's more! You wanted data, so I went out and got you some. >Hauled my son and my DVM out to the car repair place and jump-started >it for some measurements... > >Battery reads 14.3 v after jump-starting. Wait- it's dropping, all >the way to the low 12's. Now it's back up to 14.3, but just for a >moment or two. Now it's dropping all the way to 8 volts. Now back to >14.3 again. Every time the alternator comes alive I hear a slight >chirp from the serpentine belt just like when an A/C compressor kicks >in, but without the clack of the magnetic clutch. > >Removal of battery terminal connection when the battery voltage is in >the 12 volt range kills the engine cold. > >Prolonged observation of the battery voltage at idle and at various >revving rpm's and with and without headlight loads convinced me there >was no discernible pattern to the alternator coming back online- just >random. Interesting! It would be useful to measure voltages on small wires going into the back of the alternator to see if there is what appears to be a "command" signal that is turning the alternator ON/OFF . . . or whether the alternator itself is simply intermittent. Of course, the maintenance manuals SHOULD tell us about these things but that's a lot to hope for. I have a half dozen maintenance manuals on my shelves for the various cars I've owned. Electrically, these things are dismal teaching tools. >Not sure there will be a carcass to ship you, Bob. Sorry I didn't >have a scope to look at waveforms and make a guess about diode health. >Google is not showing me anything about this behavior in Hyundais, >but my search technique may need refinement. > >I have at least some info to pass along to the repeir guys tomorrow >morning, but I can;'t help but think, Now what?! I'd like to hard >wire the alternator to the battery and ignition switch like an >intelligent designer, but I fear the possible mayhem that might wreak >with the onboard computer and idiot light system. Not liking my >alternatives much at this point. Bad on Hyundai for a weak design, I >think. Could be. Could be a flaky alternator. It will be interesting to see how much the mechanic knows about it . . . or perhaps he'll just replace parts until the problem goes away. Good luck! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
sarg314 wrote: > > An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark > an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent > in the air and some sparks. > However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's > no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to > generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a > paint booth? > > Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > RV-sized paint booth? I used a rather large computer fan, about an 8" square. There several ways to attack the problem. -use a paint system that doesn't burn -push a lot of air through the booth to move the VOC out -don't use as much paint so that the VOCs have time to move Some people have given you recommendations for VOCless paints. I avoided these. I heard unfounded rumours that they don't hold up (unfounded rumours that I'm now propogating without foundation). Others have given you pointers to building a paint booth that will flow more than sufficient air to move the VOCs out before they build to explosive concentrations, but this required building more support "stuff" than I wanted to invest in. The route I chose was the $50 Harbor Freight HVLP sprayer. This thing is pathetic with house paint. By the time you get the paint thin enough to go through the sprayer, it is to thin to cover. But that is just not so with PolySpray or PolyTone. The sprayer is amazing with this thin paint. So far, I've painted my belly and control surface fabrics, as well as a frieds Dart ultralight. I asked our builder's group for estimates on how much paint to buy before starting, and found myself asking, "Where did they put all that paint?" when I was done. The true story was told by how much paint was NOT on the booth walls and floor. Even the exhaust fan only had a slight coloration from the paint. Simply put, the sprayer puts the paint on the airplane instead of making a mist. Considering how poor a painter I am, and how much I hate it, the finish job is nothing short of stunning. Less paint sprayed means less VOCs, means smaller airflow requirements. Less paint sprayed also means less $70/gal paint bought, but we're building airplanes here, so nobody really cares about that, do they? -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: automotive alternator question - OT
Access to the small wires would be difficult, given the tightly packed engine compartment and the fact that they're all housed in connectors and wrapped tightly in harness sheathing, nevertheless, I think you're right about the replace-parts-until-it's-fixed approach. I sense we're headed down that road. Will await your reply to me later post about the core carcass, etc. Tnx, Bob. -Bill B. > Interesting! It would be useful to measure voltages on small > wires going into the back of the alternator to see if there > is what appears to be a "command" signal that is turning the > alternator ON/OFF . . . or whether the alternator itself is > simply intermittent. > > Of course, the maintenance manuals SHOULD tell us about these > things but that's a lot to hope for. I have a half dozen maintenance > manuals on my shelves for the various cars I've owned. Electrically, > these things are dismal teaching tools. > > > Could be. Could be a flaky alternator. It will be interesting > to see how much the mechanic knows about it . . . or perhaps > he'll just replace parts until the problem goes away. Good > luck! > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Bill Boyd wrote: > > > Bob: > > I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the > Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Oct 23, 2006
One of the wonders of internet search engines is what you CAN'T find. This is frequently as valuable as what you CAN find. In the case of paint booth explosions, there doesn't seem much to find--even with the guys with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth and a barrel of parts solvent at the elbow. The long and short of it is --Be careful, but don't be crazy about it. Pilots should be able to evaluate risk based on understanding and experience in ALL areas of their life. OT: Great old Car Talk tale about a guy who used a vacuum cleaner to suck the dirt out of his spark plug wells after taking out the plugs. Question: "How long was it before his widow remarried?" -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69666#69666 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jerry2DT(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 23, 2006
Subject: Re: EFIS D-10 Question
Greetings, Dean... I've mounted them on two Rv6a's. One in the tail, but not fun to crawl back there to secure wires. On the other, I built a shelf just behind the baggage compartment which was pretty easy. Just used an angle finder to match the panel angle. At the time I wondered if this method would be accurate enough, but the D-100 performs flawlessly, so guess it was. BTW, Dynon wants the same orientation in all 3 axis... Again, easy to do with above method. Regards, Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS D-10 Question I know this should go to Dynon but I have a question on mounting the remote compass module. The instructions say to mount this module as close to the orientation of the D-10 unit as possible. Given that on an RV-6 the instrument panel is tilted almost 10 degrees forward, wouldn't it make more sense and be more accurate to mount it on the longeron line (which happens to be the horizontal line of flight in cruise)? Why does Dynon say to mount the compass at the same angle of tilt? Have you RV-6 drivers who've used the remote Dynon compass mounted it with the tilt? Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Wiring and wiring. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: flyadive(at)aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: echristley(at)nc.rr.com Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:14 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy Bill Boyd wrote: > > Bob: > > I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the > Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ======================================= NOPE! Sorry Guys, that is NOT the problem. I said it before, don't you remember ... What I gripe about ALL the time when it comes to planes, it is the same problem with Hyundia ... You are only throwing good money after bad ... Believe me .. I went through this problem for TWO MONTHS .. YUP! I was stupid, I did not listen to my own advice. Barry ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
> >Bob: > >I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. >I asked about the possibility of an off-site regulator function in the >car's computer, and he said as far as he knew, only Dodge has tried >that stunt. We will soon find out if he's right. > >I figure he's going to want the old alternator for a core at the auto >parts place, but perhaps we could gut the regulator out first, if that >would be of any help to you? Tell me what you're thinking and I'll >try to accomodate. Maybe I can pay the core charge up front and >recoup it later when you've returned everything. Unless this is a platinum plated alternator, the core value is typically 15 to 25 dollars. He can just keep the core and add the core value to your bill. If it's more than $50, I'll pass but up to that amount is okay with me. >Thanks for all your help with airplanes and things electric. My pleasure sir . . . wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
> > >Bill Boyd wrote: > >> >>Bob: >> >>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. > > >I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine stops rotating. > A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire would be expected. The external intermittent in an always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: antenna interference
Date: Oct 23, 2006
10/23/2006 Hello Bob Nuckolls and other antenna experts, Some time ago a fellow builder installed an Advanced Aircraft Electronics comm antenna in the vertical stab of his composite (fiberglass) airplane. The antenna is a straight one piece dipole with balun in center. The reception was tested with a radio and found to be excellent. In attaching the rudder, a full length aluminum piano style hinge was installed. This is one of the builder's modifications to the original plans that called for separate short segments of aluminum piano type hinge for the rudder. When testing the reception again with the same transmitter the reception was practically nonexistent. The builder would like to retain use of the antenna and come up with a (nearly continuous) hinge solution that will permit adequate transmission and reception. Various solutions have been proposed: 1) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of plastic. (Guden makes them). 2) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber. http://www.carbinge.com/index.html 3) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than full length segments. 4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than full length segments. 5) Abandon the continuous hinge concept and install separate short segments of metal hinge as the plans call for. We would appreciate your inputs and advice. Thanks. OC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 23, 2006
Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I think Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days depend on the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too complicated. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > > > >> >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>Bob: >>> >>>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. >> >> >>I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >>the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >>causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >>behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >>doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. > > > What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator > today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine > stops rotating. > >> A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. > > Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in > a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire > would be expected. The external intermittent in an > always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . > mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: antenna interference
> >10/23/2006 > >Hello Bob Nuckolls and other antenna experts, > >Some time ago a fellow builder installed an Advanced Aircraft Electronics >comm antenna in >the vertical stab of his composite (fiberglass) airplane. The antenna is >a straight one piece dipole with balun in center. > >The reception was tested with a radio and found to be excellent. In >attaching the rudder, a full length aluminum piano style hinge was >installed. This is one of the builder's modifications to the original >plans that called for separate short segments of aluminum piano type hinge >for the rudder. > >When testing the reception again with the same transmitter the reception >was practically nonexistent. > >The builder would like to retain use of the antenna and come up with a >(nearly continuous) hinge solution that will permit adequate transmission >and reception. Various solutions have been proposed: Hmmmm . . . "adequate" is the operative word here. Without laboratory data on the effects of current configuration and any hypothesized solutions will be hip-shots . . . >1) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of plastic. (Guden makes them). As a structural part of the airplane? >2) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber. > >http://www.carbinge.com/index.html I presume the rest of the structure is carbon fiber also. This solution is relatively attractive but know that carbon fiber while not an excellent conductor . . . it's also very unfriendly to RF propagation. At least the hinge material would not be any worse than structural components around it >3) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of >carbon fiber, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter >than full length segments. Cutting a carbon fiber hinge would produce minimal benefit once the shift from aluminum to carbon fiber is made. >4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of >aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than >full length segments. This works . . . when driving past AM station towers (tower itself is the antenna) one observes that guy wires are broken up into short segments by strain insulators. The rule of thumb is that a parasitic conductor's length should not exceed 1/10th wavelength at frequency of interest. In the case of VHF Comm, about .2 meters or 8 inches in length or shorter. >5) Abandon the continuous hinge concept and install separate short >segments of metal hinge as the plans call for. That works too . . . but probably no better than segmented hinges of other materials. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Navy electronics education course
From: "ryan42" <falcobuilder(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 23, 2006
I was browsing around looking for the Navy course mentioned on the site and in the forums, and I found another location online at: http://www.tscm.com/reference.html down the page a bit named, NEETS Manuals on Basic Electronics -Ryan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69745#69745 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: Doug McNutt <douglist(at)macnauchtan.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics-List: antenna interference
>4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than full length segments. It might be sufficient to cut it once only a few inches away from the center. It might also be enough to cut just the rod into two pieces with an insulator between them You might also try bonding both sides of the hinge to airframe ground. Well. . . that doesn't mean connecting it to the fiberglass. The idea is to move the resonance to longer wavelengths by making the hinge electrically longer as opposed to cutting it to make it shorter. And the # 10 thought. . . . Remove the dipole antenna and put a BNC connector on the hinge. -- --> If it's not on fire it's a software problem. <-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
The $50 figure is my own experience this spring when I bought an IR alternator for the RV long before I pulled the Van's Honda 35A unit to make the swap. I was charged 50 bucks by the Advance Auto store and got it all back when I returned the core several months later. (never mind it was a Mitsubishi alternator I bought and a Honda core I gave them back). Since the alternator has 175,000 miles on it, I'm not crying over its replacement even if it's not the central fault in the scenario. It's high-time and due for a rebuild, in my book. The engine was replaced with a low-time pull about two years ago, hence it has about 60k on it. The computer I'm not sure about, but probably was original to the chassis. -BB On 10/23/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > >Bob: > > > >I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the > >Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. > >I asked about the possibility of an off-site regulator function in the > >car's computer, and he said as far as he knew, only Dodge has tried > >that stunt. We will soon find out if he's right. > > > >I figure he's going to want the old alternator for a core at the auto > >parts place, but perhaps we could gut the regulator out first, if that > >would be of any help to you? Tell me what you're thinking and I'll > >try to accomodate. Maybe I can pay the core charge up front and > >recoup it later when you've returned everything. > > Unless this is a platinum plated alternator, the > core value is typically 15 to 25 dollars. He > can just keep the core and add the core value to > your bill. > > If it's more than $50, I'll pass but up to that > amount is okay with me. > > >Thanks for all your help with airplanes and things electric. > > My pleasure sir . . . wouldn't do it if it wasn't > fun. > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Navy electronics education course
> >I was browsing around looking for the Navy course mentioned on the site >and in the forums, and I found another location online at: > >http://www.tscm.com/reference.html > >down the page a bit named, NEETS Manuals on Basic Electronics > >-Ryan Interesting find. Thanks! These are later issues of the courses I've carried on the data-cd for several years. They're similar to the texts I taught from at Great Lakes many moons ago. This same site has some other interesting publications as well. I've downloaded a number of useful items for my library. Good hunting! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: flyadive(at)aol.com
Hi Randy: I did not say it was the brain box, someone else said that .. NOPE not that .. MUCH simpler than that. Barry -----Original Message----- From: sales(at)6440autoparts.com Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 3:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I think Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days depend on the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too complicated. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > > >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>> >>>Bob: >>> >>>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. >> >> >>I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >>the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >>causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >>behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >>doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. > > > What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator > today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine > stops rotating. > >> A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. > > Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in > a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire > would be expected. The external intermittent in an > always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . > mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: flyadive(at)aol.com
Over Engineering again, I see. NOPE! -----Original Message----- From: nuckollsr(at)cox.net Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 2:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > >Bill Boyd wrote: > >> >>Bob: >> >>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. > > >I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine stops rotating. > A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire would be expected. The external intermittent in an always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: antenna interference
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >> 10/23/2006 >> >> Hello Bob Nuckolls and other antenna experts, >> >> Some time ago a fellow builder installed an Advanced Aircraft >> Electronics comm antenna in >> the vertical stab of his composite (fiberglass) airplane. The >> antenna is a straight one piece dipole with balun in center. >> >> The reception was tested with a radio and found to be excellent. In >> attaching the rudder, a full length aluminum piano style hinge was >> installed. This is one of the builder's modifications to the original >> plans that called for separate short segments of aluminum piano type >> hinge for the rudder. >> >> When testing the reception again with the same transmitter the >> reception was practically nonexistent. >> >> The builder would like to retain use of the antenna and come up with >> a (nearly continuous) hinge solution that will permit adequate >> transmission and reception. Various solutions have been proposed: > > > Hmmmm . . . "adequate" is the operative word here. Without > laboratory data on the effects of current configuration and > any hypothesized solutions will be hip-shots . . . > > >> 1) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of plastic. (Guden >> makes them). > > > As a structural part of the airplane? > > >> 2) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber. >> >> http://www.carbinge.com/index.html > > > I presume the rest of the structure is carbon fiber also. This > solution is relatively attractive but know that carbon fiber > while not an excellent conductor . . . it's also very unfriendly > to RF propagation. At least the hinge material would not be any > worse than structural components around it > > >> 3) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out >> of carbon fiber, but cut it a number of times during its length into >> shorter than full length segments. > > > Cutting a carbon fiber hinge would produce minimal > benefit once the shift from aluminum to carbon fiber is made. > > >> 4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out >> of aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into >> shorter than full length segments. > > > This works . . . when driving past AM station towers > (tower itself is the antenna) one observes that guy wires > are broken up into short segments by strain insulators. > The rule of thumb is that a parasitic conductor's length > should not exceed 1/10th wavelength at frequency of interest. > In the case of VHF Comm, about .2 meters or 8 inches in length > or shorter. > > >> 5) Abandon the continuous hinge concept and install separate short >> segments of metal hinge as the plans call for. > > > That works too . . . but probably no better than segmented > hinges of other materials. > > Bob . . . Or, he could break the AL hinge once in the middle & use it as the dipole. (I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn recently; please don't take this seriously.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
>Has anyone checked the engine ground strap? Excellent! Wish I'd thought of that. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Cellphones in the air
I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - plenty of civilization. It never works. I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your airplane? Thanks, Dave Morris 1960 Mooney M20A N6030X at 52F ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 23, 2006
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
In a message dated 10/23/06 6:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au writes: > Barry, > > Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? > > Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. > > With respect > > Kingsley in Oz ====================== Thank you Kingsley: Why indeed ... Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck so far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right place. It is NOT a game of I've got a secret, I TOLD the secret MANY, MANY times but you (the collective) refuse to listen. Do you recall what I posted? Do you recall the mindless regurgitation of how I was wrong. Well, this is just an example of Over Engineering and Electronic Babble. Remember I have screamed about K.I.S.S. ME I have a Hyundai, I spent two months swapping alternators, bench checking alternators and even replaced the battery (Didn't I tell fellow that replacing the battery won't help!) ALL to no avail. I failed to listen to my own advice. I kick myself in the ass on that one. "Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged." - Ideas are not exchanged here, only regurgitated. And if someone does not agree with the herd. They are whipped with the entrails of the herd. You know Kingsley, you are the ONLY one to question my posts on this topic. The ONLY one to ask. Hell, "the only stupid question is the one not asked". Look at how many questions were not asked! Someone finally did respond with what I believe to be the correct answer. Yet, we may never know. Even if they and I are right. Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC circuit. And what is the common metal on both the plane and Hyundai? "With respect" - Thank you for the respect, but all I want is a nation that thinks for themselves. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, causing jamming to the cell system. David M. Dave N6030X wrote: > > > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - > plenty of civilization. It never works. > > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. > > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your > airplane? > > Thanks, > > > Dave Morris > 1960 Mooney M20A > N6030X at 52F > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: Steve <steve(at)theagile.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: >Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC circuit. Hmm... I'm reminded once again of the old adage that genius has it limits but ignorance knows no such bounds. Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference risks to safety of flight. My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) -Bill B On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: > > That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with > any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, > causing jamming to the cell system. > > David M. > > > Dave N6030X wrote: > > > > > > > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, > > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet > > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - > > plenty of civilization. It never works. > > > > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly > > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > > > > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer > > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, > > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message > > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. > > > > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your > > airplane? > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Dave Morris > > 1960 Mooney M20A > > N6030X at 52F > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 23, 2006
Barry, The false assumption that undermines your argument is that we are all paying attention to what you are saying. Some of us get really tired of trying to sort the wheat from the chaff and just hit the delete key. I'm pretty sure you are a smart guy that knows a lot of stuff about little airplanes that I don't, but this air of superiority just doesn't cut it with me and I would guess a few others. I don't think it's Kingsley that has his head up his butt. If you want to show us a little respect by making your posts short and to the point without belittling the character or intelligence of the rest of us, go for it. If not, don't expect us to remember just what it is that you have been saying. We probably hit the delete key before we got to it. And enough with this Yamashiada crap! Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy In a message dated 10/23/06 6:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au writes: > Barry, > > Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? > > Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. > > With respect > > Kingsley in Oz ====================== Thank you Kingsley: Why indeed ... Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck so far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right place. It is NOT a game of I've got a secret, I TOLD the secret MANY, MANY times but you (the collective) refuse to listen. Do you recall what I posted? Do you recall the mindless regurgitation of how I was wrong. Well, this is just an example of Over Engineering and Electronic Babble. Remember I have screamed about K.I.S.S. ME I have a Hyundai, I spent two months swapping alternators, bench checking alternators and even replaced the battery (Didn't I tell fellow that replacing the battery won't help!) ALL to no avail. I failed to listen to my own advice. I kick myself in the ass on that one. "Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged." - Ideas are not exchanged here, only regurgitated. And if someone does not agree with the herd. They are whipped with the entrails of the herd. You know Kingsley, you are the ONLY one to question my posts on this topic. The ONLY one to ask. Hell, "the only stupid question is the one not asked". Look at how many questions were not asked! Someone finally did respond with what I believe to be the correct answer. Yet, we may never know. Even if they and I are right. Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC circuit. And what is the common metal on both the plane and Hyundai? "With respect" - Thank you for the respect, but all I want is a nation that thinks for themselves. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SMITHBKN(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 24, 2006
Subject: Switch Selection
Group, What type of switch do I need (S700-?) in order to get the following function: Off-On-On I want the "on" positions to power two different set of cabin lights and I only want one set to be on at time. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in airplanes, not an FAA regulation. Larry Bill Boyd wrote: > > > With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He > specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As > PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference > risks to safety of flight. > > My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, > it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when > voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on > the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait > to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) > > -Bill B > > On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: >> >> That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with >> any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, >> causing jamming to the cell system. >> >> David M. >> >> >> Dave N6030X wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, >> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet >> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - >> > plenty of civilization. It never works. >> > >> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly >> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. >> > >> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer >> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, >> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message >> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. >> > >> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your >> > airplane? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > Dave Morris >> > 1960 Mooney M20A >> > N6030X at 52F >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Switch Selection
Use a S700-X-10 On-On-On and don't connect one of the terminals. See this section of the connection <http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switches.pdf> Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 SMITHBKN(at)aol.com wrote: > Group, > > What type of switch do I need (S700-?) in order to get the following > function: Off-On-On > > I want the "on" positions to power two different set of cabin lights > and I only want one set to be on at time. > > Thanks, > > Jeff > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 24, 2006
What is it about alternators that generates so much angst?. Every time this topic comes up, it seems like someone on the list goes bizonkers. Are these devices invaded by demons, only to be released every time this topic comes up? Chop'd Liver, how hard is it to say, "I covered this in a previous post. Please see the archives"? Geeze, I don't understand the snotty commentary. Best Regards, Steve Thomas ____________________________________________________________________ On Oct 23, 2006, at 7:37 PM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote: > Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck so > far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right > place. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
> >I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, well >within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet to as >high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - plenty of >civilization. It never works. > >I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly from no >bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > >What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer >than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, or >doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message saying >"Signal Lost" and disconnects. > >Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your >airplane? The old "cell" phone technology used some site-selection philosophies based on signal strength. It was assumed that when a phone was in use, it would be in range of perhaps a half-dozen adjacent antenna sites and they would talk amongst themselves to decide who would service the call and which adjacent cell would take over if the phone was moving. Accessing these systems from the air might cause dozens of sites to get pinged and the site swap algorithm would get overloaded. The digital systems are much more agile. I suspect that when your phone requests service now, the system deduces when you're airborne and simply locks you out. I've tried several brands of mobile phones from inside airplanes at all altitudes with very mixed results . . . mostly poor. If 9-11 happened today, it's much less likely that folks within a hijacked aircraft would be able to establish useful communications with the ground via hand-held phones. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Steer" <steerr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Switch Selection
Date: Oct 24, 2006
You can do it with a 2-10 switch - ON-ON-ON. Just don't hook up the bottom ON position. See page 11-19 of the Aeroelectric Connection book. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: SMITHBKN(at)aol.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Selection Group, What type of switch do I need (S700-?) in order to get the following function: Off-On-On I want the "on" positions to power two different set of cabin lights and I only want one set to be on at time. Thanks, Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 10/23/2006 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
> > > Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I think > Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days depend on > the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too complicated. . . . which presupposes that there are alternators in existence that may be controlled from outside. I.e., turned ON and OFF at will based on command fed in via one of the small wires. I've yet to see one and to date, nobody has come forward here on the List with a brand/model number for such an alternator. We can produce lots of hypothesizing, wishing, and hip-shot assertions . . . all of which are simply interesting conversation until we have the demonstrable experiment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 24, 2006
It's starting to remind me of the PM days.... Bret ----- Original Message ----- From: <FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > > In a message dated 10/23/06 6:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.au writes: > >> Barry, >> >> Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? >> >> Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. >> >> With respect >> >> Kingsley in Oz > ====================== > Thank you Kingsley: > > Why indeed ... Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck > so > far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right place. > > It is NOT a game of I've got a secret, I TOLD the secret MANY, MANY times > but > you (the collective) refuse to listen. Do you recall what I posted? Do > you > recall the mindless regurgitation of how I was wrong. Well, this is just > an > example of Over Engineering and Electronic Babble. Remember I have > screamed > about K.I.S.S. ME > > I have a Hyundai, I spent two months swapping alternators, bench checking > alternators and even replaced the battery (Didn't I tell fellow that > replacing > the battery won't help!) ALL to no avail. I failed to listen to my own > advice. > I kick myself in the ass on that one. > > "Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged." - > Ideas are not exchanged here, only regurgitated. And if someone does not > agree > with the herd. They are whipped with the entrails of the herd. > > You know Kingsley, you are the ONLY one to question my posts on this > topic. > The ONLY one to ask. Hell, "the only stupid question is the one not > asked". > Look at how many questions were not asked! > > Someone finally did respond with what I believe to be the correct answer. > Yet, we may never know. Even if they and I are right. > > Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC > circuit. > And what is the common metal on both the plane and Hyundai? > > "With respect" - Thank you for the respect, but all I want is a nation > that > thinks for themselves. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the > third > time." > Yamashiada > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: antenna interference
> >Or, he could break the AL hinge once in the middle & use it as the dipole. > >(I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn recently; please don't take this >seriously.) Actually, I considered that too . . . and it's quite doable. However, it takes some time and understanding to do the system integration. We have HF antennas on the bizjets that depend on certain structural characteristics to be in place for optimum performance. Because the HF system was an accessory added some 30 years after the airplane was designed, there's no symbiotic relationship possible between structure and antenna. The structure becomes as much an "antenna" as the intended radiator wreaking havoc on numerous on-board systems. In this case, the proposed hinge-dipole is probably doable within limits for structural integrity needed for keeping the rudder attached! Can the hinge be 40" or longer? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Barry's secret
Date: Oct 24, 2006
Barry, Though I do read this list daily, I don't recall the thing about airplanes ( and Hyundais ) to which you refer. In fact, until now, I don't recall you "bitching" about ANYTHING. I've always been thoroughly entertained, elightened or both by your posts. So, how 'bout you share it with me??? I promise not to tell ! I'm dyin' of curiosity ;o( BTW, remember, I'm just a country doctor, so 'splain it REAL simple, would ya'??? Rodney in Tennessee _________________________________________________________________ Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
It's my understanding that CDMA devices are not prohibited from such use, but that's from prior discussions here years back. Do you have "chapter and verse" to share with us? I for one would like to stay current on this topic, as I do use my cell phone aloft from time to time (and as I said, down low, below 2000AGL, usually with success.) -BB On 10/24/06, Larry Rosen wrote: > > It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in > airplanes, not an FAA regulation. > > Larry > > Bill Boyd wrote: > > > > > > With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He > > specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As > > PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference > > risks to safety of flight. > > > > My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, > > it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when > > voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on > > the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait > > to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) > > > > -Bill B > > > > On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: > >> > >> That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with > >> any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, > >> causing jamming to the cell system. > >> > >> David M. > >> > >> > >> Dave N6030X wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, > >> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet > >> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - > >> > plenty of civilization. It never works. > >> > > >> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly > >> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > >> > > >> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer > >> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, > >> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message > >> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. > >> > > >> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your > >> > airplane? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > > >> > Dave Morris > >> > 1960 Mooney M20A > >> > N6030X at 52F > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Switch Selection
>Group, > >What type of switch do I need (S700-?) in order to get the following >function: Off-On-On > >I want the "on" positions to power two different set of cabin lights and I >only want one set to be on at time. > >Thanks, > S700-2-10 and wired as illustrated in Figure 11-17 of the 'Connection. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harold Kovac" <kayce33(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
Date: Oct 24, 2006
I believe the FCC does not allow cell use in flight. Harold ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:04 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air > > > It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in > airplanes, not an FAA regulation. > > Larry > > Bill Boyd wrote: >> >> >> With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He >> specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As >> PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference >> risks to safety of flight. >> >> My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, >> it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when >> voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on >> the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait >> to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) >> >> -Bill B >> >> On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: >>> >>> That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with >>> any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, >>> causing jamming to the cell system. >>> >>> David M. >>> >>> >>> Dave N6030X wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, >>> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet >>> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - >>> > plenty of civilization. It never works. >>> > >>> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly >>> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. >>> > >>> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer >>> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, >>> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message >>> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. >>> > >>> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your >>> > airplane? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > >>> > Dave Morris >>> > 1960 Mooney M20A >>> > N6030X at 52F >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
> >Thank you Kingsley: > >Why indeed ... Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck so >far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right place. Barry, In keeping with the philosophy offered by what appears to be your adopted mentor (Yamashiada - for whom I cannot find a single reference on the 'net) I will suggest that you've been SHOWN how folks conduct themselves when sharing knowledge and understanding here on the List. I will now take the CORRECTIVE step of bringing it to your attention. Whether or not we come to the last step is entirely up to you sir. Be a gentleman or be gone. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: DVD Player Ground
Should the ground to the DVD player that I am installing in my RV-10 be grounded pack to the cockpit ground bus? See aeroelectric Z15-3 here <http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15-3.pdf> Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Switch Selection
> >Use a S700-X-10 On-On-On and don't connect one of the terminals. >See this section of the connection ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switches.pdf> Gee Larry, I forgot about that posting. Thanks for stroking the memory! Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Date: Oct 24, 2006
In this instance I'm not 100% sure but it is possible that the ecm has control over the alternator. But I do know for sure that mid 80's chryslers we're controlled by what was called a logic module at that time. Mounted in the rh front kick panel. Back in the day I sold quite a few of these for that reason. They had 2 different types of alternators bosh which could have had numbers such as 4339440, 5226600, 5227474, 5233474, 5233574,5233718 and also chrysler design 5226200, 5227100. That may help in your quest. There are other's that are controlled thru the brain also but cannot give you any specific examples at this time. I would think an auto electric shop would be a source of good info. I mean a shop that specializes in automobile electrical problems only. I am just a used parts seller but if I can help with some info I will do what I can. I will say this, I would think that the extra wiring and weight incurred by the addition of a logic module or ecm would not be worth the effort in aviation. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:19 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > > > >> >> >> Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I think >> Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days depend on >> the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too complicated. > > . . . which presupposes that there are alternators in > existence that may be controlled from outside. I.e., > turned ON and OFF at will based on command fed in > via one of the small wires. > > I've yet to see one and to date, nobody has come > forward here on the List with a brand/model number > for such an alternator. > > We can produce lots of hypothesizing, wishing, and > hip-shot assertions . . . all of which are simply > interesting conversation until we have the demonstrable > experiment. > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cellphones in the air
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
I think we spend more time discussing off-topic stuff nowadays. Seems like I'm deleting 90% of what is posted. http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html <- Horses mouth Now, can we stick with aircraft electrical systems. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air --> It's my understanding that CDMA devices are not prohibited from such use, but that's from prior discussions here years back. Do you have "chapter and verse" to share with us? I for one would like to stay current on this topic, as I do use my cell phone aloft from time to time (and as I said, down low, below 2000AGL, usually with success.) -BB On 10/24/06, Larry Rosen wrote: > --> > > It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in > airplanes, not an FAA regulation. > > Larry > > Bill Boyd wrote: > > > > > > With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He > > specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As > > PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as > > interference risks to safety of flight. > > > > My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up > > high, it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still > > work when voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the > > antenna lobes on the cell towers. It's been discussed in the > > archives, but I'll wait to see if any new info surfaces this time > > around ;-) > > > > -Bill B > > > > On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: > >> --> > >> > >> That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in > >> with any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a > >> lot, causing jamming to the cell system. > >> > >> David M. > >> > >> > >> Dave N6030X wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights > >> > now, well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from > >> > 3500 feet to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - > >> > or over - plenty of civilization. It never works. > >> > > >> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing > >> > rapidly from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > >> > > >> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds > >> > longer than normal connecting, and then either connects for a > >> > split second, or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it > >> > pops up a message saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. > >> > > >> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in > >> > your airplane? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > > >> > Dave Morris > >> > 1960 Mooney M20A > >> > N6030X at 52F > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: DVD Player Ground
> >Should the ground to the DVD player that I am installing in my RV-10 be >grounded pack to the cockpit ground bus? > >See aeroelectric Z15-3 here ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15-3.pdf> > >Larry Rosen >RV-10 #356 Sure (or the avionics ground bus). It's a potential victim of ground-loop noises. Now, having said that, be aware that many appliances have case grounds that parallel their pin-out grounds in connectors. This is one of the reasons the panel or avionics ground bus was added to the panel at Rev 11. This drastically shortens any potential ground loops due to case grounds running in parallel with wired grounds. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
> >It's starting to remind me of the PM days.... One might be tempted to believe that personality- driven conflicts are uniquely separate events. In a population the size of this List there are always one or more individuals who cannot embrace the notion of assembling useful inventions from an inventory of simple-ideas and sharing understanding. Personality duels have happened before and will happen again. The best thing we can do is filter the noise, focus on the mission and don't expend any emotional capital on them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
I know all about the legalities, having studied both the FAA and the FCC regs on the matter, and also having read the archives and discussed it with a few experts off-list. I was more curious about the practicality, i.e. whether people were ABLE to make connections via cell phones. If not, and if there are no rules against making calls in my Verizon contract, then it would seem that Verizon is illegally impeding my use of my cellphone just because I'm in the air, and I need to find out why. Thanks to those of you who generally agreed that you can make calls from down low, but not from up high. Dave Morris P.S. This is an RF issue, which falls under the science of electromagnetism, and thus IMHO included in the mission of this list. At 08:39 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: > > >I believe the FCC does not allow cell use in flight. >Harold >----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> >To: >Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:04 AM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air > > >> >>It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in >>airplanes, not an FAA regulation. >> >>Larry >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >>> >>>With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He >>>specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As >>>PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference >>>risks to safety of flight. >>> >>>My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, >>>it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when >>>voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on >>>the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait >>>to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) >>> >>>-Bill B >>> >>>On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: >>>> >>>>That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with >>>>any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, >>>>causing jamming to the cell system. >>>> >>>>David M. >>>> >>>> >>>>Dave N6030X wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, >>>> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet >>>> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - >>>> > plenty of civilization. It never works. >>>> > >>>> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly >>>> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. >>>> > >>>> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer >>>> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, >>>> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message >>>> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. >>>> > >>>> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your >>>> > airplane? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Dave Morris >>>> > 1960 Mooney M20A >>>> > N6030X at 52F >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Switch Selection
No problem It is linked from B&C web site in their switch section <http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?11X358218#s700-1-1> along with another great article of your on Switch ratings. here <http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf> Larry Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >> >> Use a S700-X-10 On-On-On and don't connect one of the terminals. >> See this section of the connection >> <http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switches.pdf> > > Gee Larry, I forgot about that posting. Thanks for > stroking the memory! > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DBerelsman(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 24, 2006
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy / Thank you.
In a message dated 10/24/2006 12:04:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes: Personality duels have happened before and will happen again. The best thing we can do is filter the noise, focus on the mission and don't expend any emotional capital on them. Bob . . . Well said....Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >> >> Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I >> think Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days >> depend on the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too >> complicated. > > > . . . which presupposes that there are alternators in > existence that may be controlled from outside. I.e., > turned ON and OFF at will based on command fed in > via one of the small wires. > Using the simple ideas, would such a technique even make sense as a way to reduce engine loads? The field voltage drops once the battery is charged and not as much current is needed. When the field voltage drops the thing is easy to spin. Basically, the alternator already draws only enough power to maintain the charge state. There's no horsepower to be gained by turning it off, and it still must keep operating to maintain the running loads. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: CHT/EGT instrument wire?
I working on a panel upgrade on an RV-4 I bought several years ago. The EGT/CHT cables are too short, I want to replace the existing cable to get correct length. But I can't seem to find the same cable used to wire it. Here are the markings: Clear Signal Cable from Inmac Santa Clara,CA 95054 E57891 Type CL2 90C 24AWG (UL) LL33523 CSA AWM A/B 80C 300V FT 4. Cable is shielded w/ blue casing, it has 6 wires (red,green,yellow,orange,brown,black). Two cables are used, one ea from 2 terminal blocks mounted on the firewall. Do you know where I can buy this stuff...need about 8 ft. Are these cables that run through the firewall bring your EGT/CHT signals from the engine into the display? The stuff you mention can't be thermocouple wire and is not suitable to this task. I'm wondering if the original builder did a poor-choice extension of the wires. What EGT/CHT instrument are we talking about? Do you have the installation manual for it? Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
Subject: Re: Cellphones in the air
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
A few comments: In some places, I have had a very easy time using my GSM phone while in flight as high as 5000' AGL. Because the terrain around here is so high, I can't recall trying to use the phone while above that altitude. In urban areas (while flying), I think my luck is not as good. It's possible that while in flight we get locked out when in areas where user density demands high tower density. Handsets used in flight over an urban area can see MANY more towers than when over sparsely populated areas. Verizon may not be deliberatly excluding flying subscribers so much as using antenna systems which concentrate on reliably communicating with ground based ones. By doing this they can use fewer towers and/or lower powered transmitters while providing at least as good coverage. I would suspect that Verizon's coverage maps are modeled with ground based users in mind. Regards, Matt- > > > I know all about the legalities, having studied both the FAA and the > FCC regs on the matter, and also having read the archives and > discussed it with a few experts off-list. > > I was more curious about the practicality, i.e. whether people were > ABLE to make connections via cell phones. If not, and if there are > no rules against making calls in my Verizon contract, then it would > seem that Verizon is illegally impeding my use of my cellphone just > because I'm in the air, and I need to find out why. > > Thanks to those of you who generally agreed that you can make calls > from down low, but not from up high. > > Dave Morris > P.S. This is an RF issue, which falls under the science of > electromagnetism, and thus IMHO included in the mission of this list. > > > At 08:39 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >> >> >>I believe the FCC does not allow cell use in flight. >>Harold >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:04 AM >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air >> >> >>> >>> >>>It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in >>>airplanes, not an FAA regulation. >>> >>>Larry >>> >>>Bill Boyd wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He >>>>specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As >>>>PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference >>>>risks to safety of flight. >>>> >>>>My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, >>>>it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when >>>>voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on >>>>the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait >>>>to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) >>>> >>>>-Bill B >>>> >>>>On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: >>>>> >>>>>That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in >>>>> with >>>>>any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, >>>>>causing jamming to the cell system. >>>>> >>>>>David M. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Dave N6030X wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights >>>>> now, >>>>> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 >>>>> feet >>>>> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - >>>>> > plenty of civilization. It never works. >>>>> > >>>>> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly >>>>> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. >>>>> > >>>>> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds >>>>> longer >>>>> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split >>>>> second, >>>>> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message >>>>> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. >>>>> > >>>>> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in >>>>> your >>>>> > airplane? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Dave Morris >>>>> > 1960 Mooney M20A >>>>> > N6030X at 52F >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: alternator autopsy
> >Using the simple ideas, would such a technique even make sense as a way to >reduce engine loads? The field voltage drops once the battery is charged >and not as much current is needed. When the field voltage drops the thing >is easy to spin. Basically, the alternator already draws only enough >power to maintain the charge state. There's no horsepower to be gained by >turning it off, and it still must keep operating to maintain the >running loads. Yeah, return on investment for an "electrical load shedding" feature would be problematic. The actual brake-horsepower required to operate the alternator under most flight regimes would not make much difference in airplane performance. I seem to recall that one of our small cars had a throttle switch that would shut the air conditioner compressor off while the throttle was fully open . . . ostensibly achieves better passing performance. My sense is that if you're pushing out that far into the corner of the performance envelope, "conserving" accessory hardware energy for the purpose of delivering it to the prop instead is not going to contribute much to the pilot's longevity. The added complexity for such a control system would have a stronger effect on system reliability due to increased parts count. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
Date: Oct 24, 2006
Tom, Have you considered taking the fan out of the equation? I wouldn't consider an electrical device to be safe in a volatiles laden atmosphere unless it is UL Listed or FM Approved as "intrinsically safe" in accordance with the National Electrical Code. As already related, paint booth explosions do occur - the company I work for (or its insuring predecessors) probably paid a few buck on that IH explosion. Volatiles have what are known as Upper and Lower Explosive Limits (UEL, LEL) when mixed with air. Explosions will only occur when the volatiles content is within those ranges with the severest explosions occurring at the right stoichiometric ratio. Determining whether you will get into these ranges or not is a rather complicated analysis based on knowing the number of room air changes per minute, and the rate of release of the volatiles into the room environment, the latter being more difficult to determine. The more common method of doing this is taking empirical measurements with a volatiles detector. Obviously, all of this can become moot if there is no ignition source present. Static potential from the plastic or other sources will be reduced with higher humidity, do don't spray on a cold dry day. Consider also, that most volatiles are heavier than air, so where you place your air supply and exhaust is just, if not more, relevant than what you are using to move fresh air through the system. To take the fan out of the equation, consider using it to push air into the booth rather than to exhaust it out. Install an air plenum on top of your booth into which your fan blows. Provide large openings (to slow the air movement) between the plenum and the booth with filters to remove dust that might be drawn in. Exhaust the air from floor level. Regards, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, 22 October, 2006 12:49 Subject: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans > > An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark an > explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent in the > air and some sparks. > However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's no > belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to generate > static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? > > Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > RV-sized paint booth? > > -- > Tom S., RV-6A > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans - more
Date: Oct 24, 2006
Forgot one of your questions - regarding sizing of a fan. You should plan for a minimum 12 air changes per hour in your booth, or at least one complete air change every 5 minutes. Fans are usually rated in cam (which is reduced by backpressure exerted by filters and other resistances). I would use a fan that would provide 150% or so of the required airflow to meet the recommended change frequency. Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, 22 October, 2006 12:49 Subject: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans > > An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark an > explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent in the > air and some sparks. > However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's no > belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to generate > static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? > > Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > RV-sized paint booth? > > -- > Tom S., RV-6A > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans - more
Doug: Thanks for that information. At present I am favoring using a waterborne urethane from Stewart Aircraft Finishing systems. It is much less dangerous in all respects. They claim that after the paint cures, it is the same as any other urethane. I'm going to talk to them at the Copperstate Fly-in this weekend. Doug Windhorn wrote: > > > Forgot one of your questions - regarding sizing of a fan. > > You should plan for a minimum 12 air changes per hour in your booth, > or at least one complete air change every 5 minutes. Fans are usually > rated in cam (which is reduced by backpressure exerted by filters and > other resistances). I would use a fan that would provide 150% or so > of the required airflow to meet the recommended change frequency. > > Doug ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 22, 2006
Subject: Dead Horses don't die...
Apologies to belabor these two points, but another builder I know is dead-set on the ol' Cessna Split Master switch and a separate Avionics master. As a long-time Nuckollhead, my plane is faithfully a Z-11, and electrically all runs, all hits, no errors. My protestations have come to naught despite my best explanations. The Avionics Master won't die because so many radio makers still insist on them by inclusion in installation schematics and threats of no warranty coverage if not used. (I know this was true of Microair when I installed mine, and I have requests out to GRT, Trutrak and Garmin for clarification) I suppose one could feed avionics by connecting a separate fuse block to the normal supply side of the e-bus through an "Avionics Master Switch" and accept the single-point failure potential. On the split master side, I could propose using the switch, provided crowbar protection and low-voltage monitor/annunciation are employed. In order to offer guidance, I have searched the A-list archives & AeroElectric Connection website for supporting documentation and found Bob's article on Avionics Masters, but not the critical arguments I have seen for the past six or seven years supporting avoidance of the split master. Can someone please point to specific references? Sorry for the broad request, but I am trying to spread the gospel here! Mark Phillips RV-6A with 366 hours of happy electrons... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Another Banning?
>Uh oh! Sounds like the threat of yet another banning! You have to be >politically correct and a nice little boy to play here. >Who is next? >Stan Sutterfield How would you have it any different? Do you identify and/or agree with Barry's assessment of the membership's technical acumen? If you believe Barry's assessment to be accurate, then why are you hanging around here? If you enjoy being the target of such outpourings, may I suggest there are plenty of groups on Usenet when one may indulge in such flame-wars to their heart's content. If you're here to help us figure out how to improve on the best we know how to do, would you not agree that Barry's recent contributions are outside the scope and gentlemanly demeanor that characterizes the Matronics Lists? This isn't up to me Stan. It was this way before I got here and hopefully the way it will continue to be after I'm gone. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: CHT/EGT instrument wire?
>These cables bring the EGT/CHT signals to the Dynon FlightDEK D-180 from two >terminal blocks(ring terminals used at blocks) and I also have the manual. A >Rocky Mt. MicroMonitor was originally used to monitor engine functions. > >About the cable used I suspect it was some overkill. The original builder >was an Electrical Engineer and was very meticulous about everything. > >I was looking for this type cable so that I could simply replace his >original installation but with more length...thought I could do that more >easily. >If there is a better way....what would you suggest? ------------------ Okay, I checked the wiring diagram for the FlightDEK_D-180 at: http://tinyurl.com/y69fr6 . . . where on page 2-6 we see a clear intention on the part of Dynon that wires from the various EGT/CHT thermocouples be run as contiguous thermocouple wire from the engine all the way to the 25-Pin EMS connector on the rear of the panel mounted unit. This is the right way to treat thermocouple wires. As a review, I'll recommend you get a copy of: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf You can order thermocouple wire that matches the engine sensors (type J and type K wire) from http://www.ethermocouple.com/ppt/ppttc_XC_J_TC_WIRE.asp and http://www.ethermocouple.com/ppt/ppttc_XC_K_TC_WIRE.asp There's a "part number builder" feature on each of these pages. May I recommend the TT-J-20S and TT-K-20S wires as the easiest to use. You can order 25' lengths of these wires for about $1.00/ft. Also, consider using machined male D-sub pins like the S604P devices shown at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/s604.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/RCT-3_Male.jpg and applied with a low cost tool like http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/rct-3.jpg Pins and tools available from either Steinair at: http://steinair.com/ or B&C at http://bandc.biz Using the multi-conductor copper cables to extend your engine thermocouples from a terminal block is a good way to introduce considerable temperature measurement error into the instrument's readings. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2006
From: user01 <nightware(at)sasktel.net>
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans - intrinsically safe vs
explosion proof Doug, I basically agree with your statement about ratings for equipment in the hazardous area, but I would go on a bit further. Please excuse me for being picky about the definitions. There are two ways to do electrical things in hazardous areas - intrinsically safe (I.S.), and explosion-proof. Both attempt to avoid igniting the hazardous atmosphere around the device. I.S. systems limit available energy in the system (total connected capacitance, allowed voltage, non-incendive barriers etc) and I've used IS with instrumentation - switches, transmitters, communication networks, etc. There are many constraints here, including barriers in the non-hazardous area, and segregation of wiring; if I was instrumenting an industrial paint booth with pressure, airflow, temperature and other instrumentation, I would consider IS equipment. As far as I know, there are no IS motors commercially available. A single device wouldn't be IS by itself, but would have to be part of a designe IS system. Explosion-proof equipment allows for higher energy levels (both voltage and current) and prevents ignition by using seals or wide machined flanges on doors and housings to allow for cooling of the flame front before it exits the enclosure. The enclosures are usually built quite heavy, as they may have an ignition internally to survive, without allowing the flame front to ignite the surrounding environment. To select motors for use in a hazardous location, I look for TEXP (totally enclosed, explosion proof). In a fan application, air friction may be generating static electricity on the fan blades and the ducting material. When I was initially looking for a rated fan, I found words like "non-igniting fan and housing" along with spectacular price tags. I believe that you are partially correct regarding placement of the fan on the supply side of the booth. This placement could reduce the hazard if: 1. you do not dead-head the fan (any in-line filters always allow significant flow), which would allow booth contents to migrate to the fan. 2. you never have the fan stop while the hazard is present. If it stops, you shouldn't restart it, because the motor can be considered to be in the hazardous area once the flow stops. Mitigation of the risk may be possible by using long supply ducting, and your suggestion about using the fan on the supply side - this is a question for an insurance inspector; I don't know, myself. The fan would have to be up-sized a bit to address the additional pressure drop from the longer ductwork. In an industrial plant, I wouldn't use a fan that wasn't rated (fan, motor, and ductwork) for the specific hazardous area, and my experience is that the engineer would be pretty clear about checking that. There would also almost certainly be explosion doors and anti-backdraft dampers in the ducting system as well. Another method is to use a belt or chain driven fan, with the motor outside the duct in the non-hazardous environment. I think I saw that in a Sam James painting video, but I may be remembering incorrectly. If using a belt drive, I would pay some extra attention to safety grounding to avoid static and sparks. I think that your comment on inlet and outlet placement was good. I went with a full height inlet (three furnace filters high on the door) and a floor-level exhaust, and an approximately 8x8 ft temporary booth. I am still looking for a reasonably priced TEXP motor. For further information on IS equipment, there are good references on a number of system vendor websites. Here are a couple: http://www.omega.com/techref/intrinsic.html http://www.setra.com/tra/app/app_exp.htm The second reference has brief discussion of IS vs explosion-proof. My comments do not constitute advocacy or approval of a particular design. I strongly suggest that anyone considering their own hazardous area electrical design should seek the opinion of a professional engineer licenced to practice in their area, and consider whether your insurance would cover your loss in the event of an incident and related claim. Howard McKay RV8A, empennage Saskatoon, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans > > > Tom, > > Have you considered taking the fan out of the equation? > > I wouldn't consider an electrical device to be safe in a volatiles laden > atmosphere unless it is UL Listed or FM Approved as "intrinsically safe" > in accordance with the National Electrical Code. As already related, > paint booth explosions do occur - the company I work for (or its insuring > predecessors) probably paid a few buck on that IH explosion. > > Volatiles have what are known as Upper and Lower Explosive Limits (UEL, > LEL) when mixed with air. Explosions will only occur when the volatiles > content is within those ranges with the severest explosions occurring at > the right stoichiometric ratio. Determining whether you will get into > these ranges or not is a rather complicated analysis based on knowing the > number of room air changes per minute, and the rate of release of the > volatiles into the room environment, the latter being more difficult to > determine. The more common method of doing this is taking empirical > measurements with a volatiles detector. Obviously, all of this can become > moot if there is no ignition source present. Static potential from the > plastic or other sources will be reduced with higher humidity, do don't > spray on a cold dry day. > > Consider also, that most volatiles are heavier than air, so where you > place your air supply and exhaust is just, if not more, relevant than what > you are using to move fresh air through the system. > > To take the fan out of the equation, consider using it to push air into > the booth rather than to exhaust it out. Install an air plenum on top of > your booth into which your fan blows. Provide large openings (to slow the > air movement) between the plenum and the booth with filters to remove dust > that might be drawn in. Exhaust the air from floor level. > > Regards, > > Doug Windhorn > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net> > To: > Sent: Sunday, 22 October, 2006 12:49 > Subject: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans > > >> >> An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark an >> explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent in >> the air and some sparks. >> However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't >> they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's no >> belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to generate >> static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? >> >> Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an >> RV-sized paint booth? >> >> -- >> Tom S., RV-6A >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: New e-mail list: Mgl Avionics Stratomaster Users Group
Date: Oct 25, 2006
I've just received my new "Enigma" EFIS/EMS and am interested in exchanging information with other owners of products from MGL Avionics "Stratomaster" line. So I've started a group on Yahoo. The information on the list is below. This is a user-to-user list and I have NO official affiliation with MGL. You can read about their product line here: www.mglavionics.co.za See you on the list! -- Craig Payne Here're the details on stratomaster_users_group: Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stratomaster_users_group Group email address: stratomaster_users_group(at)yahoogroups.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Verwey " <bonanza(at)vodamail.co.za>
Subject: New e-mail list: Mgl Avionics Stratomaster Users
Group
Date: Oct 26, 2006
Craig, I have visited the manufacturing facility here in South Africa and I can tell you that the technology is top notch, and very nice people to deal with. Hope u enjoy it. Glad to know about the list. Bob Verwey Soon-to-be 'Enigma enhanced' A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne Sent: 26 October 2006 07:27 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: New e-mail list: Mgl Avionics Stratomaster Users Group --> I've just received my new "Enigma" EFIS/EMS and am interested in exchanging information with other owners of products from MGL Avionics "Stratomaster" line. So I've started a group on Yahoo. The information on the list is below. This is a user-to-user list and I have NO official affiliation with MGL. You can read about their product line here: www.mglavionics.co.za See you on the list! -- Craig Payne Here're the details on stratomaster_users_group: Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stratomaster_users_group Group email address: stratomaster_users_group(at)yahoogroups.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
From: "N941WR" <one4fun(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Oct 26, 2006
The simple solution is to wire an audio jack on the panel and then just use whatever MP3/iPod player you want. This was easy enough to do with my stereo intercom. As for powering the iPod, I put a two port power port (cigerette lighter jack) from West marine in my panel. The iPod Nano now goes up to 9 Gb with no hard drive. As for using the AirGizmo docking station. It is a good idea but I suspect Apple will change the form factor on the iPods again and then you are stuck with a docking station that you can't get an iPod for. -------- Bill RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70277#70277 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electroluminescent hum
From: "N941WR" <one4fun(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Oct 26, 2006
I have installed an electroluminescent strip to light the switch panel in my RV-9 and this has introduced a low volume hum in the intercom. Do any of you have a suggestion on how to eliminate this? My set up is as follows: (And what I have tried) - All grounds go to a common ground bus, mounted on the inside of the firewall, which is bolted through the firewall to the engine ground bus and negative battery cable. - The positive lead from the EL power supply is wired in to an Aero Bob dimmer. - I have removed power to the power supply and the hum goes away. - I have moved the wires to the power supply - I have wrapped the power supply in tinfoil - I have temporarily installed a noise suppressor in the avionics bus feed line. -------- Bill RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70280#70280 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electroluminescent hum
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
Bill, I had a similar problem and applied two fixes. First, all wires were returned to the same ground...not looping or daisy-chaining. Second, the wires to/from the strip were aggressively twisted. I'm unsure which was the final solution as both were applied when the problem was fixed. It's a couple things to try. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N941WR Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electroluminescent hum --> I have installed an electroluminescent strip to light the switch panel in my RV-9 and this has introduced a low volume hum in the intercom. Do any of you have a suggestion on how to eliminate this? My set up is as follows: (And what I have tried) - All grounds go to a common ground bus, mounted on the inside of the firewall, which is bolted through the firewall to the engine ground bus and negative battery cable. - The positive lead from the EL power supply is wired in to an Aero Bob dimmer. - I have removed power to the power supply and the hum goes away. - I have moved the wires to the power supply - I have wrapped the power supply in tinfoil - I have temporarily installed a noise suppressor in the avionics bus feed line. -------- Bill RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70280#70280 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2(at)starband.net>
Subject: hot heatsinks
Date: Oct 26, 2006
I have a couple schottky diodes with heatsinks. Due to the diode package design, the base is the cathode. This in turn means that the heatsink is electrically hot. For all my other exposed +12v connections, I have covered them either with a rubber boot or multiple layers of liquid insulation. I am concerned about these heatsinks, and the +12v passing through them, being exposed. It would defeat the purpose of the heatsink if I cover them with liquid insulation. I was thinking perhaps I could build a perforated Plexiglas or fiberglass box to put over them. What do you electrical gurus think about this situation with exposed heatsinks that are +12v? brian http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: Updating my Connection Manual?
Date: Oct 26, 2006
I purchased the AeroElectric Connection manual a couple of years ago (Revision 10B), but only now am getting ready to actually think about designing and building the electrical system. I see many references in the group here to updated figures and changed pages in the manual. There is a lot of data on the articles download page at aeroelectric.com, but there doesn't seem to be a central depository of manual changes. At least, I can't find it. In fact, the link that is supposed to take you to the 10->11 update only drops you back in the articles page. Is there a straightforward way to get the updated pages on-line? Andy Elliott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: Dave N6030X <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done
this? My little cheap Hypervox intercom has a separate "music input" jack. My iPod Video plugs in there and works perfectly. The iPod battery lasts long enough for most any cross country without being plugged into any power. You only have to worry about the hard drive if you're flying over 10,000 feet. Dave Morris At 07:06 AM 10/26/2006, you wrote: > >The simple solution is to wire an audio jack on the panel and then >just use whatever MP3/iPod player you want. > >This was easy enough to do with my stereo intercom. > >As for powering the iPod, I put a two port power port (cigerette >lighter jack) from West marine in my panel. > >The iPod Nano now goes up to 9 Gb with no hard drive. > >As for using the AirGizmo docking station. It is a good idea but I >suspect Apple will change the form factor on the iPods again and >then you are stuck with a docking station that you can't get an iPod for. > >-------- >Bill >RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70277#70277 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Oct 26, 2006
Guys!.....whoa. Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why. Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint explosion -"explosion proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of non-relevant stuff. Then answer the following-- 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup similar to what you intend to use? 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame? My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray. Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag. Again. Be safe but not silly. "Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in." ---Leonard Cohen -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Quick_n_Dirty_Breakout
Yesterday while working a problem on a bizjet, I needed to get my 'scope on a couple of pins in a d-sub connector while the system of interest was being aligned. The nearest 9-pin, d-sub breakout box was 3/4 of a mile away so I went to the junk bins and built a quick-n-dirty 9-pin, dsub-breakout harness. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Quck_n_Dirty_Breakout.jpg This is at least one, inexpensive way to acquire test tools for your devices fitted with d-sub connectors. Digikey, Jameco, MP_Jones, Hosfelt, et. als. are good sources for the "ribbon cable munchable connectors." Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric Parlow" <ericparlow(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: DB connector pin remove/replace
Date: Oct 26, 2006
What is the best way to remove and replace pins in a DB connector? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: hot heatsinks
>I have a couple schottky diodes with heatsinks. Due to the diode package >design, the base is the cathode. This in turn means that the heatsink is >electrically "hot". For all my other exposed +12v connections, I have >covered them either with a rubber boot or multiple layers of liquid >insulation. I am concerned about these heatsinks, and the +12v passing >through them, being exposed. It would defeat the purpose of the heatsink >if I cover them with liquid insulation. I was thinking perhaps I could >build a perforated Plexiglas or fiberglass box to put over them. What do >you electrical gurus think about this situation with exposed heatsinks >that are +12v? > >brian The electronics industry has been insulating electrically "hot" cases of components from their mounting surfaces for decades. See: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T063/0873.pdf . . . where you will find a variety of semiconductor insulator products used to electrically isolate but thermally heat sink devices to their mounting surfaces. Radio Shack has a few such products too that you may find useful and/or adaptable to your needs. See also: http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/heatsink.htm http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm#8 http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm#9 http://www.bcae1.com/heatsink.htm Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Updating my Connection Manual?
>I purchased the AeroElectric Connection manual a couple of years ago >(Revision 10B), but only now am getting ready to actually think about >designing and building the electrical system. I see many references in >the group here to updated figures and changed pages in the manual. There >is a lot of data on the articles download page at aeroelectric.com, but >there doesn't seem to be a central depository of manual changes. At >least, I can't find it. In fact, the link that is supposed to take you to >the 10->11 update only drops you back in the articles page. Is there a >straightforward way to get the updated pages on-line? Yes, goto http://aeroelectric.com/ click on "What's New?" . . . scroll down to "Download Updates" and select documents of your choice. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
My thoughts exactly....I have known a friend who when spraying could not see the the other side of the room and you could see sparks in the motor of his compressor and it did not ignite. Now I wouldn't do that but it goes to show the amount of vapour you need to make an explosive mixture is beyond what you will get with sparying, as Eric says the box fan will be perfectly fine and keep the mixture well below the LEL (lower explosive limit) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:03 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans --> Guys!.....whoa. Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why. Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint explosion -"explosion proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of non-relevant stuff. Then answer the following-- 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup similar to what you intend to use? 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame? My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray. Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag. Again. Be safe but not silly. "Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in." ---Leonard Cohen -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: Dan Luer <dluer2002(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Another Banning?
Right on, Bob! You hit the nail on the head! Good work. Dan --- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > Nuckolls, III" > > > >Uh oh! Sounds like the threat of yet another > banning! You have to be > >politically correct and a nice little boy to play > here. > >Who is next? > >Stan Sutterfield > > How would you have it any different? > Do you identify and/or agree with Barry's > assessment of the membership's > technical acumen? If you believe Barry's > assessment to be accurate, then why are > you hanging around here? > > If you enjoy being the target of such > outpourings, may I suggest there are plenty > of groups on Usenet when one may indulge > in such flame-wars to their heart's content. > > If you're here to help us figure out how to > improve on the best we know how to do, would > you not agree that Barry's recent > contributions are outside the scope and > gentlemanly demeanor that characterizes the > Matronics Lists? This isn't up to me Stan. > It was this way before I got here and hopefully > the way it will continue to be after I'm gone. > > Bob . . . > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > Web Forums! > > > Admin. > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LarryRosen(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans - intrinsically safe vs
explosion proof
Date: Oct 26, 2006
If you believe you have or could have an explosive atmosphere (above the LEL and below UEL for the solvents) there is a lot more you need to be concerned about besides just the fan. All the electrical switches, outlets, lights, radio and any other electrical device in the area need to be either explosion-proof or intrinsically safe. Not a trivial task and not inexpensive. Larry Rosen -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: user01 <nightware(at)sasktel.net> > > Doug, I basically agree with your statement about ratings for equipment in > the hazardous area, but I would go on a bit further. > Please excuse me for being picky about the definitions. > > There are two ways to do electrical things in hazardous areas - > intrinsically safe (I.S.), and explosion-proof. > Both attempt to avoid igniting the hazardous atmosphere around the device. > > I.S. systems limit available energy in the system (total connected > capacitance, allowed voltage, non-incendive barriers etc) and I've used IS > with instrumentation - switches, transmitters, communication networks, etc. > There are many constraints here, including barriers in the non-hazardous > area, and segregation of wiring; if I was instrumenting an industrial paint > booth with pressure, airflow, temperature and other instrumentation, I would > consider IS equipment. As far as I know, there are no IS motors > commercially available. A single device wouldn't be IS by itself, but > would have to be part of a designe IS system. > > Explosion-proof equipment allows for higher energy levels (both voltage and > current) and prevents ignition by using seals or wide machined flanges on > doors and housings to allow for cooling of the flame front before it exits > the enclosure. The enclosures are usually built quite heavy, as they may > have an ignition internally to survive, without allowing the flame front to > ignite the surrounding environment. > > To select motors for use in a hazardous location, I look for TEXP (totally > enclosed, explosion proof). In a fan application, air friction may be > generating static electricity on the fan blades and the ducting material. > When I was initially looking for a rated fan, I found words like > "non-igniting fan and housing" along with spectacular price tags. > > I believe that you are partially correct regarding placement of the fan on > the supply side of the booth. This placement could reduce the hazard if: > 1. you do not dead-head the fan (any in-line filters always allow > significant flow), which would allow booth contents to migrate to the fan. > 2. you never have the fan stop while the hazard is present. If it > stops, you shouldn't restart it, because the motor can be considered to be > in the hazardous area once the flow stops. > > Mitigation of the risk may be possible by using long supply ducting, and > your suggestion about using the fan on the supply side - this is a question > for an insurance inspector; I don't know, myself. The fan would have to be > up-sized a bit to address the additional pressure drop from the longer > ductwork. In an industrial plant, I wouldn't use a fan that wasn't rated > (fan, motor, and ductwork) for the specific hazardous area, and my > experience is that the engineer would be pretty clear about checking that. > There would also almost certainly be explosion doors and anti-backdraft > dampers in the ducting system as well. > > Another method is to use a belt or chain driven fan, with the motor outside > the duct in the non-hazardous environment. I think I saw that in a Sam > James painting video, but I may be remembering incorrectly. If using a belt > drive, I would pay some extra attention to safety grounding to avoid static > and sparks. > > I think that your comment on inlet and outlet placement was good. I went > with a full height inlet (three furnace filters high on the door) and a > floor-level exhaust, and an approximately 8x8 ft temporary booth. I am > still looking for a reasonably priced TEXP motor. > > For further information on IS equipment, there are good references on a > number of system vendor websites. Here are a couple: > http://www.omega.com/techref/intrinsic.html > http://www.setra.com/tra/app/app_exp.htm > > The second reference has brief discussion of IS vs explosion-proof. > > My comments do not constitute advocacy or approval of a particular design. > I strongly suggest that anyone considering their own hazardous area > electrical design should seek the opinion of a professional engineer > licenced to practice in their area, and consider whether your insurance > would cover your loss in the event of an incident and related claim. > > Howard McKay > RV8A, empennage > Saskatoon, Canada > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > Have you considered taking the fan out of the equation? > > > > I wouldn't consider an electrical device to be safe in a volatiles laden > > atmosphere unless it is UL Listed or FM Approved as "intrinsically safe" > > in accordance with the National Electrical Code. As already related, > > paint booth explosions do occur - the company I work for (or its insuring > > predecessors) probably paid a few buck on that IH explosion. > > > > Volatiles have what are known as Upper and Lower Explosive Limits (UEL, > > LEL) when mixed with air. Explosions will only occur when the volatiles > > content is within those ranges with the severest explosions occurring at > > the right stoichiometric ratio. Determining whether you will get into > > these ranges or not is a rather complicated analysis based on knowing the > > number of room air changes per minute, and the rate of release of the > > volatiles into the room environment, the latter being more difficult to > > determine. The more common method of doing this is taking empirical > > measurements with a volatiles detector. Obviously, all of this can become > > moot if there is no ignition source present. Static potential from the > > plastic or other sources will be reduced with higher humidity, do don't > > spray on a cold dry day. > > > > Consider also, that most volatiles are heavier than air, so where you > > place your air supply and exhaust is just, if not more, relevant than what > > you are using to move fresh air through the system. > > > > To take the fan out of the equation, consider using it to push air into > > the booth rather than to exhaust it out. Install an air plenum on top of > > your booth into which your fan blows. Provide large openings (to slow the > > air movement) between the plenum and the booth with filters to remove dust > > that might be drawn in. Exhaust the air from floor level. > > > > Regards, > > > > Doug Windhorn > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net> > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, 22 October, 2006 12:49 > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans > > > > > >> > >> An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark an > >> explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent in > >> the air and some sparks. > >> However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > >> they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's no > >> belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to generate > >> static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? > >> > >> Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > >> RV-sized paint booth? > >> > >> -- > >> Tom S., RV-6A > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
If it was that thick, he may have actually been too rich. It really is a narrow mixture for it to explode. Still wouldn't recommend it though. Michael Sausen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans --> (Corvallis)" My thoughts exactly....I have known a friend who when spraying could not see the the other side of the room and you could see sparks in the motor of his compressor and it did not ignite. Now I wouldn't do that but it goes to show the amount of vapour you need to make an explosive mixture is beyond what you will get with sparying, as Eric says the box fan will be perfectly fine and keep the mixture well below the LEL (lower explosive limit) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:03 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans --> Guys!.....whoa. Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why. Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint explosion -"explosion proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of non-relevant stuff. Then answer the following-- 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup similar to what you intend to use? 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame? My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray. Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag. Again. Be safe but not silly. "Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in." ---Leonard Cohen -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Subject: hot heatsinks
Date: Oct 26, 2006
Better to electrically (but not thermally) isolate the diodes from the heat sink. This is common practice. Search the archives for "mica". Here is a quote from a message I sent back in January: "Electrical isolation is done with thin plates placed between the chip and the heat sink. In the old days the plate was mica. Heat sink "grease" is used to ensure a good thermal bond between all the layers. There are newer insulators that don't require the grease. If you are using metal nuts and screws to bolt the chip down then you need special non-conducting shoulder washers to keep the nuts and screws from forming electrical contact between the chip's case and the heat sink." -- Craig ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electroluminescent hum
From: "N941WR" <one4fun(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Oct 26, 2006
Chuck, Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, I had already done both of those things. I might try re-routing the wires between the power converter and the strips. (I'm running duel strips since I have a center mounted throttle quadrant in my -9.) -------- Bill RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70417#70417 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this?
From: "N941WR" <one4fun(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Oct 26, 2006
I thought this schematic (http://www.repucci.com/bill/electrical/audio%20connections%202.jpg) might be of some interest to those of you connecting multiple things together in a VFR ship. Of course, it requires iCom radio, with its three mono inputs, to work. I just wish there were a better way to connect the Garmin 396/496 to the audio system rather than through its stereo connection. This would allow me to get terrain (and others?) warnings while listening to iPod. This shouldn't really be an issue in a VFR ship. At least I hope so. -------- Bill RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70421#70421 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electroluminescent hum
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
I was running dual strips as well as a number of instrument lights. The first installation groups the grounds together from a few of the items, then ran one long lead over to the ground on the converter. Running all of the grounds back to the converter...as well as doing a Mr. Twister on them, was the fix. Nonetheless, fiddling with them can sometimes affect a cure, just like fiddling with them will sometimes initiate the problem. There is a lot of black magic involved in this stuff (at least for us uneducated electrical types!). Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N941WR Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electroluminescent hum --> Chuck, Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, I had already done both of those things. I might try re-routing the wires between the power converter and the strips. (I'm running duel strips since I have a center mounted throttle quadrant in my -9.) -------- Bill RV-9 (Working on the finishing kit) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70417#70417 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2(at)starband.net>
Subject: DB connector pin remove/replace
Date: Oct 26, 2006
With a DB pin tool, like so: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102600 HTH, brian http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric Parlow Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: DB connector pin remove/replace What is the best way to remove and replace pins in a DB connector? -- -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: hot heatsinks
Brian, One solution is to electrically isolate the diode from the heatsink. Aavid Thermolloy, Bergquist and others all make insulation for this purpose. Try DigiKey. http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T063/0872.pdf Brian Meyette wrote: > > I have a couple schottky diodes with heatsinks. Due to the diode > package design, the base is the cathode. This in turn means that the > heatsink is electrically hot. For all my other exposed +12v > connections, I have covered them either with a rubber boot or multiple > layers of liquid insulation. I am concerned about these heatsinks, > and the +12v passing through them, being exposed. It would defeat the > purpose of the heatsink if I cover them with liquid insulation. I > was thinking perhaps I could build a perforated Plexiglas or > fiberglass box to put over them. What do you electrical gurus think > about this situation with exposed heatsinks that are +12v? > > brian > > http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm > > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Chris_du_V=E9?= <chrisduve(at)netspace.net.au>
Subject: "Old Bobs" Bonanza?
Date: Oct 27, 2006
I was reading AvWeb this week and their weekly "Picture of the Week" column featured this photograph/caption. http://www.avweb.com/newspics/potw04_1243.jpg Is this aircraft owned by our highly esteemed contributor to this very list? A lovely photograph that, if larger, I would love to have as background on my computer! Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-RE trio auto trim wiring ????
Date: Oct 26, 2006
Bob and others I need your help in following / understanding the attached diagram. According to the folks at trio the 5 and 6 leads from the trio servo are wired to the commons of the dpdt relay. The purpose of this set up is to disconnect the auto trim when the manual trim is actuated. Now the questions: (If the relay I am using has 1 and 2 as NC, 3 and 4 NO, 5 and 6 as the commons, and 7 and 8 the coils). What is the purpose of the bridge rectifier? When the relay is in the NC position is the manual trim over ride on or is the trio auto trim on? What wiring diagram would represent this set up better than the attached diagram? HELP.......LOST in a wiring maze again. I know......I know sweet just to all my poor chemistry student that I couln't see why they copuldn't understand quantum mechanics! TIA Frank @ sgu and slc _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Another Banning?
>Nope. I don't agree with Barry's rant. He was grossly off track. >I had no idea what he was talking about during most of it. >I certainly don't remember his musings of earlier. I doubt >anyone does - except Barry. Regardless, I also don't agree to >the banning of people from this forum. They've been asked to leave other forums too Stan. >Barry contributes significantly to my learning and I like >to hear his comments. If I don't like what I hear, I >move on to the next individual's comments. I didn't like >Barry's recent rant. I moved on to the next entry. >Paul and George also contributed significantly to the discussions. >But, we'll never know what their latest contributions might entail. So anyone can say anything and it's okay with you as long as they sprinkle the occasional "nugget" of good stuff . . . and how do you KNOW it's good stuff? Not once did and of the gentlemen in question explain their respective rants in simple-ideas that anyone can grasp, appreciate and use based on personal understanding. If you find it sufficient to take their advice as-is, you're certainly free to communicate with them directly . . . but if they choose to pour out "data" without also being a teacher, then there's no basis for deducing that their offerings are anything but self serving propaganda. >I guess we'll all have to live with the bannings >until/unless we start a blog/forum of our own. You don't read well sir . . . nobody has been "banned" . . . but I'm told that that IS an option. But everything from giant corporations to new religions have been splintered off from other groups. As I mentioned, Usenet is ready, willing and able to accept whatever form and function of words you desire. Anyone can start a Usenet group and nobody here will discourage you from doing it if you find the atmosphere here stifling or oppressive. >Regarding your last paragraph, I didn't realize there >was a time before you got here. I must have joined after >you arrived. The Matronics forums existed long before the AeroElectric-List. Read the periodically published FAQ and mission statement published by Matt and you'll understand that my simple request for Barry to comport himself in the manner of a gentleman comes from Matronics List Policies. My question to you sir still stands. Is it your mission here to help us improve on the best we know how to do . . . or to belabor the fact that an unruly participant got his wrists slapped? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "A DeMarzo" <planepubs(at)ev1.net>
Subject: Re: "Old Bobs" Bonanza?
I think that one belongs to Young Old Bob, or Old Bob Jr. On 10/26/2006 8:23:33 PM, Chris du V=E9 (chrisduve(at)netspace.net.au) wrote: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Chris_du_V=E9? > > > I was reading AvWeb this week and their weekly "Picture of the Week" > column featured this photograph/caption. > > http://www.avweb.com/newspics/potw04_1243.jpg > > Is this aircraft owned by our highly esteemed contributor to this > very list? > > A lovely photograph that, if larger, I would love to have as > background on my computer! > > Chris > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year
One of my favorite fun reads in the business is "Nuts and Volts" magazine: http://www.nutsvolts.com/ The latest issue features an article about the birth of the triode vacuum tube where for the first time, a relatively unspectacular control of electrons crossing the evacuated space between cathode and anode enclosed in a vacuum was accomplished. The device had GAIN. This meant it could amplify and oscillate. Radio, long distance telephones and talking movies would rise quickly to great heights on this invention that also planted seeds for the amazing feats of function and miniaturization that we enjoy today. Every week I get journals in the mail that speak of whizzy new devices cast in silicon . . . Unfortunately, we're so busy

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gg

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gg