AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gi
November 14, 2006 - November 23, 2006
we've compromised design goals for the product.
Are you likely to experience any difficulties for the
compromise? No. But it IS a compromise and not the best
we know how to do.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>As a European I'm accustomed to see US citizens use Fahrenheit for CHT,
>oil temp etc.
>But in an original P51 manual, I'm puzzled to find temps in Celsius.
>
>How come the Celsius were fashionable in the '40s when only Anglo-Saxons
>were flying US airplanes, and now they have reverted to Fahrenheit ?
Why do some folks call them "pancakes", others "flapjacks", while
still others speak of "griddlecakes". You're not witnessing a
reversion but simply an illustration of how various products
and technologies reflect their roots.
Our aviation services have mixed and matched scales and
nomenclatures for the same or similar information since
day-one. Temperatures at altitude have always been offered
in C while ground temps were until a few years ago offered
in F. Directions on the ground were in magnetic while winds
aloft were in true. Some folks like to offer pressures in
inches-Hg while others gravitated to millibars or even mm-Hg.
ATP category aircraft shared a lot of engineering and
operating philosophies with military aircraft and tended
to be more formal in the descriptions of performance while
single engine aircraft that targeted John Q Public were more
likely to speak in a language common to folks who drove
cars and trucks and got their weather from the radio.
Yes, there was a grand push to avoid confusion, make teaching
easier, reduce errors, and perhaps even foster a sense
of "oneness with the world" by adopting the metric system.
And to be sure, there are some obvious advantages. But doing
so requires a singleness of purpose for a majority of
a population for several generations in order to flush out
the old and replace with the new.
In the mean time you have cost of creation and ownership
issues for the folks who have to purchase, stock and
maintain the hardware. I still get a sense of !#$!@ when
I have to essentially double the numbers of tools I
own in order to perform basic maintenance on products
I own.
Politicians and preachers have dreamed of world wide
oneness for centuries. Some have attempted to force
their vision on humankind. In the final analysis,
any successful transition will be driven by
folks who deliver the most compelling products. As
our markets experience the forces of world-wide participants,
it will be the systems of measurement favored by the
most competitive suppliers that will prevail. If a
third world society could rise up over the next couple
of generations and provide us with a flow of products
that rivaled the rest of the world, it wouldn't matter
if they used metric, fractional or even some totally new
system of measurement. We'd all go out and buy the
tools that fit those products, grumbling all the way
to the store driving the car that addressed our
perceptions of best value.
The smooth transition to oneness is not by decree or
even obvious logic. It's the whim of suppliers
and the acceptance of those supplier's goods and
services by a customer who perceives value in
the goods and services. If a huge starship landed
tomorrow and loaded a compelling array of
merchandise into Walmart's distribution pipes,
it's a certainty that very few individuals would
refuse to purchase those products because it takes
yet another set of tools to maintain them or the
temperature gage needed some translation.
In the mean time, we can look forward to more
of the same. It's less stressful to chalk it up to
"diversity and the richness of melding cultures"
than to gunch about it. Now, were did I put that
T9 wrench?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
Good Morning Richard,
How very true, but, fortunately, the ones we have been
using for aviation here in our crazy mixed up country
have had a hex drive portion that was made to fit our
good old fashioned foot/inch measurement system.
I'd say odds are that old John Deere/Champion plug
used a non metric wrench to aid it's extraction.
Have you ever noted that aircraft mechanics world wide
seem to have standardized on our system as well?
Will wonders never cease?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Richard Girard wrote:
> The answer to this one is pretty simple. Bosch was
> the first maker of spark
> plugs and set the standard. you could probably go
> back to a 1921 owner's
> manual and find the same reference. So far as I
> know, spark plugs are all
> metric thread and always have been.
>
> Rick
>
> On 11/14/06, DBerelsman(at)aol.com
> wrote:
> >
> > Great question Giles...
> >
> > Here is another nail in the coffin of the folks
> who moan "I love American
> > non-standard measurement".
> >
> > Last summer I was repairing my fathers 1951 John
> Deere B farm tractor.
> > What's more American than John Deere ?.
> >
> > The tattered owners manual calls for *18mm
> Champion spark plugs*.
> >
> > What happened to our good sense ?
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Antennaes and primer |
| From: | "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> |
I have all my antennas..com, nav, and 2 gps antennas under fiberglass. The GPS
antennas are just forward of the wind screen, theNav antenna is in the belly
and the com in the leading edge of the vert stabilizer.
The only difference between my plane and the prototype is the primer and my control
surfaces (elevator, rudder, ailerons, and flaps) are carbon fiber not fiberglass.
The Prototype used PPG K36 with K201 hardener, I used Dupont Nason 421-19 with
483-87 hardener.
The MDSS lists aluminum, iron sulfate and carbon black in unknown quantities in
the DuPont product. These are not listed in th MDSS for the PPG product.
I find I transmit and recieve normally on frequencies below 125.00 but TX and RX
is very weak above this. My Nav reception is exceedingly weak across the board
and both GPSs take up to 10 minutyes to lock and then only see 4 sats.
The com nav bench checks fine and when I recieved the BMA Efiss and tested them
in the car they locked on in seconds.
Can the stuff in the primer cause this? If so how large an area around the antennas
do I need to sand.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=74522#74522
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CHAD FELDPOUCH <1pouch(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin manuals on PDF file |
Ok , I have them all now .
Thanks everyone for all your help.
Chad..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature (metric) units puzzle |
So explain how virtually every American car post WWII used 14mm plugs,
until they went to those tiny ones. Perhaps 14mm and 18mm just happen to
be equal to an English thread size. Especially since they both require
an English unit plug socket, either 13/16 or 7/8.
DBerelsman(at)aol.com wrote:
> Great question Giles...
>
> Here is another nail in the coffin of the folks who moan "I love
> American non-standard measurement".
>
> Last summer I was repairing my fathers 1951 John Deere B farm tractor.
> What's more American than John Deere ?.
>
> The tattered owners manual calls for *_18mm_ Champion spark plugs*.
>
> What happened to our good sense ?
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Recomended Alternator |
I'm new to this list and building a Bearhawk with an O-540. I'm looking for
a ER 40 amp alternator that is less expensive than B&C's. Can anyone
recommend a good model ND or equivalent? Same goes for regulators.
Thanks,
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Recomended Alternator |
>
>
>
>I'm new to this list and building a Bearhawk with an O-540. I'm looking for
>a ER 40 amp alternator that is less expensive than B&C's. Can anyone
>recommend a good model ND or equivalent? Same goes for regulators.
To my knowledge, there are no modern production alternators
designed to run with external regulators . . . at least not
in the volume automotive markets.
You can modify your own alternator. There's probably several
guides out there on the 'net. One that I'm aware of can be
viewed at:
http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
Regulators are cheap. The generic "ford" regulator cited in
the 'Connection is one to consider.
OV protection and LV warning are also good features to have.
Regulation, OV protection =AND= LV warning can be had in
one box from B&C in the form of the LR-3 . . . or you can
craft your own devices from data gleaned from my website
or elsewhere.
My best recommendation is that you install an out-of-the-box
IR alternator. By the time you're ready to fly, we'll probably
have the hardware to add to your installation that will offer
all the features cited above while offering any time, any
circumstances, ON-OFF control of the alternator without concerns
for damage to the alternator or ship's systems.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Recomended Alternator |
Good Morning Michel,
Welcome to the list.
I hope you find what you need, but may I interject one
thought?
I am primarily a pilot, secondarily a grease monkey.
My electrical knowledge is way down on the competency
scale. Nevertheless, I would suggest that you be very
cautious when searching for electrical components
based on the price of acquisition.
If your need for electrical power is minimal such as
is true when flying daytime VFR in non challenging
environments, an electrical failure may be no problem
at all, but if your area of operation is in a more
challenging environment, buying high quality
components may be well worth the money.
Bill Bainbridge, the owner of B&C, is dedicated to
producing high quality equipment at a reasonable
price.
While there are undoubtedly cheaper components
available, I doubt if you will find very many products
of the same or grater quality at a lower price.
My only connection with B&C is that I am a very happy
customer!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
--- Michel Creek wrote:
> Creek"
>
>
> I'm new to this list and building a Bearhawk with an
> O-540. I'm looking for
> a ER 40 amp alternator that is less expensive than
> B&C's. Can anyone
> recommend a good model ND or equivalent? Same goes
> for regulators.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike C.
>
>
>
> Click on
> about
> provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antennaes and primer |
>
>I have all my antennas..com, nav, and 2 gps antennas under fiberglass.
>The GPS antennas are just forward of the wind screen, theNav antenna is in
>the belly and the com in the leading edge of the vert stabilizer.
>
>The only difference between my plane and the prototype is the primer and
>my control surfaces (elevator, rudder, ailerons, and flaps) are carbon
>fiber not fiberglass.
>
>The Prototype used PPG K36 with K201 hardener, I used Dupont Nason 421-19
>with 483-87 hardener.
>
>The MDSS lists aluminum, iron sulfate and carbon black in unknown
>quantities in the DuPont product. These are not listed in th MDSS for the
>PPG product.
>
>I find I transmit and recieve normally on frequencies below 125.00 but TX
>and RX is very weak above this. My Nav reception is exceedingly weak
>across the board and both GPSs take up to 10 minutyes to lock and then
>only see 4 sats.
>
>The com nav bench checks fine and when I recieved the BMA Efiss and tested
>them in the car they locked on in seconds.
>
>Can the stuff in the primer cause this? If so how large an area around the
>antennas do I need to sand.
Without hard data from experiments in the laboratory and/or
repeatable experiments in the field, I doubt that anyone can
give you more than WAGed advice. It's a given that ANYTHING
you place between your antenna and some signal of interest
has an effect. The question becomes to what degree and what
level of acceptability.
But unless someone here on the List has encountered and
massaged you particular combination of conditions before,
we're hard pressed to be of meaningful assistance. Sorry.
You're in position to offer us data from your own experiments
. . . and perhaps someone will come along later and repeat
to confirm/discount your findings.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>The circuit is just a ground to tell my TCAD that it is on the ground. A
>pressure switch ( I can only find NO in the range I need) is in the pitot
>system. The switch closes at roughly 50 knots. I have access to both ends
>of the switch. The switch is a micro pneumatic logic 503. Maybe you know a
>supplier that would sell me one that is NC.The closing of the switch is
>supposed to open the ground on the TCAD. I can easily convert the no to nc
>by using a relay, but, I thought a transistor may also work?? Just making
>an attempt to learn more electric stuff. I hope that this explanation
>works.
If we knew more about the internal wiring of the TCAD system, perhaps
the solution could be as simple as the first sketch below.
1a352a.jpg
However, the second sketch is 99.9% certain to work. All the parts are
available from Radio Shack.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: TCAD IAS Switch (with link to sketch) |
The circuit is just a ground to tell my TCAD that it is on the ground. A
pressure switch ( I can only find NO in the range I need) is in the pitot
system. The switch closes at roughly 50 knots. I have access to both ends
of the switch. The switch is a micro pneumatic logic 503. Maybe you know a
supplier that would sell me one that is NC.The closing of the switch is
supposed to open the ground on the TCAD. I can easily convert the no to nc
by using a relay, but, I thought a transistor may also work?? Just making
an attempt to learn more electric stuff. I hope that this explanation
works.
If we knew more about the internal wiring of the TCAD system, perhaps
the solution could be as simple as the first sketch below.
(I didn't get the attachment here . . . I've posted the sketch
at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/TCAD_Switch.pdf
However, the second sketch is 99.9% certain to work. All the parts are
available from Radio Shack.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Len Loudis <n713ml(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Hall Effect/Ammeter/query |
Folks,
As others have said, placement of devices to measure health of your electrical
system is like decisions on primers! So my goal, rightly or wrongly: One Hall
Effect feeding my ACS 2005 eng monitor on my main alt B-lead to read as loadmeter.
When I switch to my SD8 backup alt, all wired per Z13-8, I want to keep
it very simple and switch to a second sensor reading charge or discharge.
The ACS is monitoring volts, of course, and is wired through the endurance bus.
I After looking at archives, I still remain unclear as to my questions(s) here:
a) where to place this second sensor and which way constitutes "alternator"
and "battery" sides in that placement, and b) will it read properly whether
or not one has selected "Alternate Ebus Feed".
Thanks in advance,
Len
RV7A nearing completion
---------------------------------
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house payment
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hall Effect/Ammeter/query |
>Folks,
>As others have said, placement of devices to measure health of your
>electrical system is like decisions on primers! So my goal, rightly or
>wrongly: One Hall Effect feeding my ACS 2005 eng monitor on my main alt
>B-lead to read as loadmeter. When I switch to my SD8 backup alt, all wired
>per Z13-8, I want to keep it very simple and switch to a second sensor
>reading charge or discharge. The ACS is monitoring volts, of course, and
>is wired through the endurance bus. I After looking at archives, I still
>remain unclear as to my questions(s) here: a) where to place this second
>sensor and which way constitutes "alternator" and "battery" sides in that
>placement, and b) will it read properly whether or not one has selected
>"Alternate Ebus Feed".
Suggest you fit your system with a low voltage warning
light fed from the e-bus. Run BOTH alternator feed wires
through the same hall-effect sensor. The instrument will
read output from either or both alternators on one sensor.
If you're down to the SD-8, reduce loads on the e-bus until
the loadmeter is at 8A or less . . . or until the lv light
stops flashing.
No selector switches. Simple and consistent interpretation
of ammeter readings.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TCAD IAS Switch (with link to sketch) |
Bob,
Thanks for the help. I now have one more question. I am looking at the second
sketch and the two resistoirs look to be in series with the second resistor going
to ground. The resistors appears to half the volltage going to the transistor
when the switch is open with the other half going directly to ground. With
the switch closed the voltage that would have gone into the transistor would
now go to ground ? with no voltage going into the transistor? If you have time
I would like to hear a little explanation of the actual workings of this circuit.
I am not doubting it will work, I just want to understand what and why
it does what it does. Thanks for all the help. Don
---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
>
>
> The circuit is just a ground to tell my TCAD that it is on the ground. A
> pressure switch ( I can only find NO in the range I need) is in the pitot
> system. The switch closes at roughly 50 knots. I have access to both ends
> of the switch. The switch is a micro pneumatic logic 503. Maybe you know a
> supplier that would sell me one that is NC.The closing of the switch is
> supposed to open the ground on the TCAD. I can easily convert the no to nc
> by using a relay, but, I thought a transistor may also work?? Just making
> an attempt to learn more electric stuff. I hope that this explanation
> works.
>
> If we knew more about the internal wiring of the TCAD system, perhaps
> the solution could be as simple as the first sketch below.
>
> (I didn't get the attachment here . . . I've posted the sketch
> at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/TCAD_Switch.pdf
>
> However, the second sketch is 99.9% certain to work. All the parts are
> available from Radio Shack.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antennaes and primer |
The primer may be your problem. I've got a Glasair Super 2 and I used PPG
K36 primer and PPG Concept paint and have had no problem. My GPS antenna is
located, like yours, ahead of the windscreen area inside of the airplane.
My comm antenna is located in the vertical stab.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennaes and primer
>
>
>
>>
>>I have all my antennas..com, nav, and 2 gps antennas under fiberglass.
>>The GPS antennas are just forward of the wind screen, theNav antenna is in
>>the belly and the com in the leading edge of the vert stabilizer.
>>
>>The only difference between my plane and the prototype is the primer and
>>my control surfaces (elevator, rudder, ailerons, and flaps) are carbon
>>fiber not fiberglass.
>>
>>The Prototype used PPG K36 with K201 hardener, I used Dupont Nason 421-19
>>with 483-87 hardener.
>>
>>The MDSS lists aluminum, iron sulfate and carbon black in unknown
>>quantities in the DuPont product. These are not listed in th MDSS for the
>>PPG product.
>>
>>I find I transmit and recieve normally on frequencies below 125.00 but TX
>>and RX is very weak above this. My Nav reception is exceedingly weak
>>across the board and both GPSs take up to 10 minutyes to lock and then
>>only see 4 sats.
>>
>>The com nav bench checks fine and when I recieved the BMA Efiss and tested
>>them in the car they locked on in seconds.
>>
>>Can the stuff in the primer cause this? If so how large an area around the
>>antennas do I need to sand.
>
>
> Without hard data from experiments in the laboratory and/or
> repeatable experiments in the field, I doubt that anyone can
> give you more than WAGed advice. It's a given that ANYTHING
> you place between your antenna and some signal of interest
> has an effect. The question becomes to what degree and what
> level of acceptability.
>
> But unless someone here on the List has encountered and
> massaged you particular combination of conditions before,
> we're hard pressed to be of meaningful assistance. Sorry.
>
> You're in position to offer us data from your own experiments
> . . . and perhaps someone will come along later and repeat
> to confirm/discount your findings.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Campbell" <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Vacuum Pad Limitations - Weight & Torque... |
Does anyone know how much torque the www.BandC.biz SD-20
alternator places on the accessory pad drive? The reason I ask
is because I put one on my TCM IO-550N engine and want to be
sure it is within the limits prescribed by the engine manufacturer.
My engine is described by the "Type Certificate Data Sheet" (TCDS) E3SO.
(This applies to most of the Continental IO-550 engine models.)
For those who may not be aware, the TCDS is the "official" source
of limitations on any Type Certified device that the FAA has approved.
The FAA is the official repository of the most up-to-date approved TCDS
and also maintains the historical records as well. You can find them at
http://www.AirWeb.FAA.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf
Anyway... the E3SO (Revision 8) Type Certificate says that
my engine's "accessory drives" (aka: "vacuum pump pads")
can each be loaded to 100 inch pounds of torque on a continuous basis,
and up to 800 inch pounds of torque on a static basis. A little ***
note indicates that one drive can be loaded to 160 in.lbs if the other
drive is limited to 100 in.lbs, (or in my case, not used.)
It also states that the accessory drive gear ratio is 1.5:1
so if I'm cruising at 2333 RPM or higher, then the alternator
should be turning at 3500 RPM or higher and able to put out a full 20 amps.
(according to the info at www.BandC.biz for it's SD-20 alternator)
The TCDS also shows that the maximum "overhang moment" of each accessory
should not exceed 40 inch pounds. By checking the specs at
http://www.bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf
it appears that the SD-20 weighs about 5.72 lbs and the CG is 3.15"
from the flange, for an overhang moment of about 18 inch pounds.
So far, so good!
It would be nice to know if the SD-20 has a "shear shaft"
to limit the damage in the event of a locked rotor. If it sheared around
800 inch pounds of static torque, that would be great to protect the engine.
So... to my great relief (and no big surprise), the SD-20 doesn't appear to
present
any excessive burden to the accessory drive on my IO-550. Thousands of
these
things flying around, so I didn't expect that there would be a problem.
############## EXTRA CREDIT ################
The only significant "unknown" is what the "continuous" & "static" torque of
the
alternator is while fully loaded at my max-rpm's ?
I'll challenge the electrically gifted on this list to come up with a
reasonable estimate
of the torque required to produce 20 amps at 3500 to 4050 alternator rpm.
I can follow it through VxA = Watts, Watts -> HP, HP / Efficiency = Input
Shaft HP,
Input Shaft HP / rpm = Force or Torque or something - but I get stuck about
there.
Bottom line, I'd like to know Input Shaft torque on a continuous basis
over the range of operating RPM's. (Perhaps it's highest at lower RPM ?)
If it's less than 160 inch pounds, then we're good to hang at least one
SD-20 (on a TCM IO-550)
If it's less than 100 inch pounds, then you could conceivably hang two
SD-20's -
(although it would take tiny fingers & a small miracle to get them both
bolted on & torqued properly! ;-)
########################################
If anybody is considering hanging two of the SD-20's, or has a radically
different engine,
you might want to look up your TCDS to find the latest "approved"
limitations.
You might find out you have a higher or lower gear ratio, torque limit, or
max overhang moment.
Just some thoughts for those who are cautious or curious.
(But I'm expecting answers from the electrically gifted! ;-)
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Morgan <wmorgan31(at)netzero.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/14/06 |
Robert Bosch (yes, the same as the German company Bosch)invented and
patented the spark plug as we know it today. He let anyone use the
patent without paying a royalty fee IF THE THREADS WERE METRIC!
Scott
At 01:55 AM 11/15/2006, you wrote:
>From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Temperature (metric) units puzzle
>
>
>So explain how virtually every American car post WWII used 14mm plugs,
>until they went to those tiny ones. Perhaps 14mm and 18mm just happen to
>be equal to an English thread size. Especially since they both require
>an English unit plug socket, either 13/16 or 7/8.
>DBe
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Vacuum Pad Limitations - Weight & Torque... |
I'm planning on using a similar setup (still building). Thanks for the
info.
I have no reason to use anything else besides the B&C SD-20. However, does
anyone know of any alternatives?
I was at GAMI in Oklahoma last spring and saw a demo of the Supplenator (30
amp version) see: http://www.gami.com/supplenator.html
However, the like GAMI's phantom PRISM ignition system it is not yet
available (perhaps never?)
Rick Titsworth
Cell: 313-506-5604
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vacuum Pad Limitations - Weight & Torque...
Does anyone know how much torque the www.BandC.biz SD-20
alternator places on the accessory pad drive? The reason I ask
is because I put one on my TCM IO-550N engine and want to be
sure it is within the limits prescribed by the engine manufacturer.
My engine is described by the "Type Certificate Data Sheet" (TCDS) E3SO.
(This applies to most of the Continental IO-550 engine models.)
For those who may not be aware, the TCDS is the "official" source
of limitations on any Type Certified device that the FAA has approved.
The FAA is the official repository of the most up-to-date approved TCDS
and also maintains the historical records as well. You can find them at
http://www.AirWeb.FAA.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf
Anyway... the E3SO (Revision 8) Type Certificate says that
my engine's "accessory drives" (aka: "vacuum pump pads")
can each be loaded to 100 inch pounds of torque on a continuous basis,
and up to 800 inch pounds of torque on a static basis. A little ***
note indicates that one drive can be loaded to 160 in.lbs if the other
drive is limited to 100 in.lbs, (or in my case, not used.)
It also states that the accessory drive gear ratio is 1.5:1
so if I'm cruising at 2333 RPM or higher, then the alternator
should be turning at 3500 RPM or higher and able to put out a full 20 amps.
(according to the info at www.BandC.biz for it's SD-20 alternator)
The TCDS also shows that the maximum "overhang moment" of each accessory
should not exceed 40 inch pounds. By checking the specs at
http://www.bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf
it appears that the SD-20 weighs about 5.72 lbs and the CG is 3.15"
from the flange, for an overhang moment of about 18 inch pounds.
So far, so good!
It would be nice to know if the SD-20 has a "shear shaft"
to limit the damage in the event of a locked rotor. If it sheared around
800 inch pounds of static torque, that would be great to protect the engine.
So... to my great relief (and no big surprise), the SD-20 doesn't appear to
present
any excessive burden to the accessory drive on my IO-550. Thousands of
these
things flying around, so I didn't expect that there would be a problem.
############## EXTRA CREDIT ################
The only significant "unknown" is what the "continuous" & "static" torque of
the
alternator is while fully loaded at my max-rpm's ?
I'll challenge the electrically gifted on this list to come up with a
reasonable estimate
of the torque required to produce 20 amps at 3500 to 4050 alternator rpm.
I can follow it through VxA = Watts, Watts -> HP, HP / Efficiency = Input
Shaft HP,
Input Shaft HP / rpm = Force or Torque or something - but I get stuck about
there.
Bottom line, I'd like to know Input Shaft torque on a continuous basis
over the range of operating RPM's. (Perhaps it's highest at lower RPM ?)
If it's less than 160 inch pounds, then we're good to hang at least one
SD-20 (on a TCM IO-550)
If it's less than 100 inch pounds, then you could conceivably hang two
SD-20's -
(although it would take tiny fingers & a small miracle to get them both
bolted on & torqued properly! ;-)
########################################
If anybody is considering hanging two of the SD-20's, or has a radically
different engine,
you might want to look up your TCDS to find the latest "approved"
limitations.
You might find out you have a higher or lower gear ratio, torque limit, or
max overhang moment.
Just some thoughts for those who are cautious or curious.
(But I'm expecting answers from the electrically gifted! ;-)
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum Pad Limitations - Weight & Torque... |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hello Greg,
It looks to me that the only thing missing in your calculation is hp
torque (ft-lbs) x RPM / 5252 or torque = hp x 5252 / RPM.
Let's say the alternator is 50% efficient - a very conservative number, I
think.
SD-20 Output Watts = 20A * 13.5V (guess) = 270Watts
with 50% efficiency, that's 540Watts input.
That's 0.723hp (power = 540Watts/746Watts/1hp) - 1hp = 746Watts
Seems like worst case torque might happen when the alternator is at the
lowest RPM - and producing maximum current. The alternator is rated at
3500RPM.
Torque = 0.723hp x 5252 / 3500 = 1.1ft-lb = 13.03in-lb.
Assumptions to be checked:
- My math.
- Shaft load above 3500RPM doesn't significantly increase.
- Dynamic torque load is minimal - I have noticed that when turning PM
dynamos, there are small magnetic "bumps" to get over. I suspect that
the magnitude of these bumps is small, but I don't know.
- Overall dynamo efficiency.
Regards,
Matt-
> Does anyone know how much torque the www.BandC.biz SD-20
> alternator places on the accessory pad drive? The reason I ask
> is because I put one on my TCM IO-550N engine and want to be
> sure it is within the limits prescribed by the engine manufacturer.
>
> My engine is described by the "Type Certificate Data Sheet" (TCDS) E3SO.
> (This applies to most of the Continental IO-550 engine models.)
>
> For those who may not be aware, the TCDS is the "official" source
> of limitations on any Type Certified device that the FAA has approved.
> The FAA is the official repository of the most up-to-date approved TCDS
> and also maintains the historical records as well. You can find them at
> http://www.AirWeb.FAA.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf
>
> Anyway... the E3SO (Revision 8) Type Certificate says that
> my engine's "accessory drives" (aka: "vacuum pump pads")
> can each be loaded to 100 inch pounds of torque on a continuous basis,
> and up to 800 inch pounds of torque on a static basis. A little ***
> note indicates that one drive can be loaded to 160 in.lbs if the other
> drive is limited to 100 in.lbs, (or in my case, not used.)
>
> It also states that the accessory drive gear ratio is 1.5:1
> so if I'm cruising at 2333 RPM or higher, then the alternator
> should be turning at 3500 RPM or higher and able to put out a full 20
> amps.
> (according to the info at www.BandC.biz for it's SD-20 alternator)
>
> The TCDS also shows that the maximum "overhang moment" of each accessory
> should not exceed 40 inch pounds. By checking the specs at
> http://www.bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf
> it appears that the SD-20 weighs about 5.72 lbs and the CG is 3.15"
> from the flange, for an overhang moment of about 18 inch pounds.
> So far, so good!
>
> It would be nice to know if the SD-20 has a "shear shaft"
> to limit the damage in the event of a locked rotor. If it sheared around
> 800 inch pounds of static torque, that would be great to protect the
> engine.
>
>
> So... to my great relief (and no big surprise), the SD-20 doesn't appear
> to
> present
> any excessive burden to the accessory drive on my IO-550. Thousands of
> these
> things flying around, so I didn't expect that there would be a problem.
>
> ############## EXTRA CREDIT ################
> The only significant "unknown" is what the "continuous" & "static" torque
> of
> the
> alternator is while fully loaded at my max-rpm's ?
>
> I'll challenge the electrically gifted on this list to come up with a
> reasonable estimate
> of the torque required to produce 20 amps at 3500 to 4050 alternator rpm.
> I can follow it through VxA = Watts, Watts -> HP, HP / Efficiency = Input
> Shaft HP,
> Input Shaft HP / rpm = Force or Torque or something - but I get stuck
> about
> there.
>
> Bottom line, I'd like to know Input Shaft torque on a continuous basis
> over the range of operating RPM's. (Perhaps it's highest at lower RPM ?)
>
> If it's less than 160 inch pounds, then we're good to hang at least one
> SD-20 (on a TCM IO-550)
> If it's less than 100 inch pounds, then you could conceivably hang two
> SD-20's -
> (although it would take tiny fingers & a small miracle to get them both
> bolted on & torqued properly! ;-)
>
> ########################################
>
> If anybody is considering hanging two of the SD-20's, or has a radically
> different engine,
> you might want to look up your TCDS to find the latest "approved"
> limitations.
> You might find out you have a higher or lower gear ratio, torque limit, or
> max overhang moment.
>
> Just some thoughts for those who are cautious or curious.
> (But I'm expecting answers from the electrically gifted! ;-)
>
> Greg
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gordon or marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com> |
| Subject: | Recomended Alternator |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Recomended Alternator
To my knowledge, there are no modern production alternators
designed to run with external regulators . . . at least not
in the volume automotive markets.
http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
Regulators are cheap. The generic "ford" regulator cited in
the 'Connection is one to consider.
OV protection and LV warning are also good features to have.
Regulation, OV protection =AND= LV warning can be had in
one box from B&C in the form of the LR-3 . . . or you can
craft your own devices from data gleaned from my website
or elsewhere.
My best recommendation is that you install an out-of-the-box
IR alternator. By the time you're ready to fly, we'll probably
have the hardware to add to your installation that will offer
all the features cited above while offering any time, any
circumstances, ON-OFF control of the alternator without concerns
for damage to the alternator or ship's systems.
Bob . . .
Bob: FYI and FWIW, a Ford engineer told me recently that certain Ford IR
alternators have a field control lead that connects to the ECM which, under
some circumstances, tells the alternator to shut down for various reasons,
such as under heavy acceleration. Additionally, to help deal with belt
noise on cold startups, the regulator can be directed to perform a "soft"
start. He acknowleged the need for OV protection and made me think it is
part of the regulator but was not specific and I didn't press the issue.
What it could mean for our business I have'nt much of a clue.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DBerelsman(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: The Real US Metric History |
Get the real information here.
_http://ts.nist.gov/WeightsAndMeasures/Metric/upload/1136a.pdf_
(http://ts.nist.gov/WeightsAndMeasures/Metric/upload/1136a.pdf)
As explained to me by a historian at the US Metric Board:
"The US has technically been metric since 1992, because the US Govt (the
largest purchaser in the world) went metric in 1992. But after that earlier
fiasco - we just chose not to advertise it."
(http://ts.nist.gov/WeightsAndMeasures/Metric/upload/1136a.pdf)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vacuum Pad Limitations - Weight & Torque... |
>Does anyone know how much torque the <http://www.BandC.biz>www.BandC.biz SD-20
>alternator places on the accessory pad drive? The reason I ask
>is because I put one on my TCM IO-550N engine and want to be
>sure it is within the limits prescribed by the engine manufacturer.
A 20A, 14V alternator puts out 280 watts or 280/745 = .38 HP.
The alternator is never running at its design speed for
peak efficiency (about 5,000 rpm) so just for grins, let's
assume 50% (ugh) efficiency. This says mechanical demands on
the engine are 0.76 hp.
The horsepower is 33,000 ft-lbs of work per minute. Since the
baseline torque limit you've cited is in in-lb, we'll assume
a shaft of 1" radius sticking out the back of your engine. Spinning
that shaft at 3,500 rpm give us a surface speed on the shaft
of 3,500 x 1 x 2 x pi = 21,980 inches per minute or 21,980/12
1,831 feet/minute. Loading this shaft to 100 in-lb yields
100 x 1,831 = 183,100 ft-lb per minute or available
HP = 183,100/33,000 = 5.5
>
>My engine is described by the "Type Certificate Data Sheet" (TCDS) E3SO.
>(This applies to most of the Continental IO-550 engine models.)
>
>For those who may not be aware, the TCDS is the "official" source
>of limitations on any Type Certified device that the FAA has approved.
>The FAA is the official repository of the most up-to-date approved TCDS
>and also maintains the historical records as well. You can find them at
><http://www.AirWeb.FAA.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf>http://www.AirWeb.FAA.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf
>
>Anyway... the E3SO (Revision 8) Type Certificate says that
>my engine's "accessory drives" (aka: "vacuum pump pads")
>can each be loaded to 100 inch pounds of torque on a continuous basis,
>and up to 800 inch pounds of torque on a static basis. A little ***
>note indicates that one drive can be loaded to 160 in.lbs if the other
>drive is limited to 100 in.lbs, (or in my case, not used.)
>
>It also states that the accessory drive gear ratio is 1.5:1
>so if I'm cruising at 2333 RPM or higher, then the alternator
>should be turning at 3500 RPM or higher and able to put out a full 20 amps.
>(according to the info at <http://www.BandC.biz>www.BandC.biz for it's
>SD-20 alternator)
>
>The TCDS also shows that the maximum "overhang moment" of each accessory
>should not exceed 40 inch pounds. By checking the specs at
><http://www.bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf>http://www.bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf
>it appears that the SD-20 weighs about 5.72 lbs and the CG is 3.15"
>from the flange, for an overhang moment of about 18 inch pounds.
>So far, so good!
>
>It would be nice to know if the SD-20 has a "shear shaft"
>to limit the damage in the event of a locked rotor. If it sheared around
>800 inch pounds of static torque, that would be great to protect the engine.
It could not have been certified without one, and even
then B&C would not have produced one without a shear section
even if it were allowed.
>
>
>So... to my great relief (and no big surprise), the SD-20 doesn't appear
>to present
>any excessive burden to the accessory drive on my IO-550. Thousands of these
>things flying around, so I didn't expect that there would be a problem.
>
>############## EXTRA CREDIT ################
>The only significant "unknown" is what the "continuous" & "static" torque
>of the
>alternator is while fully loaded at my max-rpm's ?
>
>I'll challenge the electrically gifted on this list to come up with a
>reasonable estimate
>of the torque required to produce 20 amps at 3500 to 4050 alternator rpm.
>I can follow it through VxA = Watts, Watts -> HP, HP / Efficiency = Input
>Shaft HP,
>Input Shaft HP / rpm = Force or Torque or something - but I get stuck
>about there.
>
>Bottom line, I'd like to know Input Shaft torque on a continuous basis
>over the range of operating RPM's. (Perhaps it's highest at lower RPM ?)
If the power output is constant, then torque would go UP as
RPM goes down. However, this alternator is never operated at
minimum speed for full output so if you're loading the alternator
at max output for 3,500 RPM and then reduce RPM, then power
input (torque) will go down along with the output.
>
>If it's less than 160 inch pounds, then we're good to hang at least one
>SD-20 (on a TCM IO-550)
>If it's less than 100 inch pounds, then you could conceivably hang two
>SD-20's -
>(although it would take tiny fingers & a small miracle to get them both
>bolted on & torqued properly! ;-)
>
>########################################
>
>If anybody is considering hanging two of the SD-20's, or has a radically
>different engine,
>you might want to look up your TCDS to find the latest "approved"
>limitations.
>You might find out you have a higher or lower gear ratio, torque limit, or
>max overhang moment.
>
Correct. As we've observed, the SD-20 doesn't begin to load
the pad to limits so the engine is not mechanically
challenged if one COULD install two alternators.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Temperature units puzzle |
>
>
>This article explains the lack of conversion.
>
>http://capitalastronomers.org/ReganMeasurements.html
This article assumes an often committed fundamental
flaw in logic made by some observers of government.
Namely that the president (or any other official) has
the power to effect much of anything - especially
something so interwoven into the fabric of an economy.
The article assumes: (1) that president A decrees that
"it shall be so". All dutiful citizens immediately
begin marching off toward that goal and (2) that
president B - [for what ever motivations] decreed that
"it shall not be so" and all progress toward that goal
ceased.
The argument then stacks a lot of confusing if
not irrelevant references around the assertion
thus laying the groundwork for a huge disconnect
between perceptions of some citizens and simple
realities - like market forces and economics in
a free society.
If president A's decree were to achieve fruition,
it would have required the full force of of every
agent of government with guns to confiscate and destroy
every article not designed, manufactured and maintained
in the metric system. This would have required laws
with severe penalties for not adhering to the "new
order". The process would have taken years and
the court system would have been swamped. The economic
impact to the country would have been incalculable.
Fortunately, both the force and will of our elected decision
makers have yet to rise to the necessary proportions.
Bottom line is if somebody mass markets a new
product with fasteners totally foreign to all popular
measurement systems but with performance value
and market appeal, the same manufacturer would make
a lot of money selling a set of tools to go along
with the product.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TCAD IAS Switch (with link to sketch) |
Bob,
Thanks for the information. I sent a previous response that I do not think
made it. In that one I asked about how and why the resistive portion of the
circuit was there. I figured it out and think that I actuaslly learned
something today. Thanks again.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:06 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: TCAD IAS Switch (with link to sketch)
The circuit is just a ground to tell my TCAD that it is on the ground. A
pressure switch ( I can only find NO in the range I need) is in the pitot
system. The switch closes at roughly 50 knots. I have access to both ends
of the switch. The switch is a micro pneumatic logic 503. Maybe you know a
supplier that would sell me one that is NC.The closing of the switch is
supposed to open the ground on the TCAD. I can easily convert the no to nc
by using a relay, but, I thought a transistor may also work?? Just making
an attempt to learn more electric stuff. I hope that this explanation
works.
If we knew more about the internal wiring of the TCAD system, perhaps
the solution could be as simple as the first sketch below.
(I didn't get the attachment here . . . I've posted the sketch
at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/TCAD_Switch.pdf
However, the second sketch is 99.9% certain to work. All the parts are
available from Radio Shack.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Recomended Alternator |
Bob and Bob,
Thanks for the input and recommendations. I do like the B&C products as
they look to be top of the line quality, I'm just not sure I need to spend
that much for the type of flying I do. I'm mostly day VFR with some
occasional clear night flying for no more than about 1 hour before dawn or
after dusk.
I'm also planning on installing a Dynon EFIS with a back-up battery.
Mike C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Recomended Alternator
>
>
>
>I'm new to this list and building a Bearhawk with an O-540. I'm looking
for
>a ER 40 amp alternator that is less expensive than B&C's. Can anyone
>recommend a good model ND or equivalent? Same goes for regulators.
To my knowledge, there are no modern production alternators
designed to run with external regulators . . . at least not
in the volume automotive markets.
You can modify your own alternator. There's probably several
guides out there on the 'net. One that I'm aware of can be
viewed at:
http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
Regulators are cheap. The generic "ford" regulator cited in
the 'Connection is one to consider.
OV protection and LV warning are also good features to have.
Regulation, OV protection =AND= LV warning can be had in
one box from B&C in the form of the LR-3 . . . or you can
craft your own devices from data gleaned from my website
or elsewhere.
My best recommendation is that you install an out-of-the-box
IR alternator. By the time you're ready to fly, we'll probably
have the hardware to add to your installation that will offer
all the features cited above while offering any time, any
circumstances, ON-OFF control of the alternator without concerns
for damage to the alternator or ship's systems.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GTX327 power switching |
| From: | "phd1993" <samhutcheson(at)kc.rr.com> |
I have been bench/panel testing my GTX327 during cable assembly prior to final
installation in my panel and I can confirm the Pin 1 / Pin 15 configurations.
Now my question - if I have power supplied via Pin 15 and ground on Pin 25 WITHOUT
connecting either the transponder antenna or the altitude encoder what should
the GTX327 display at power on? How about power on while holding down the
FUNC button. All I am getting is the "backpanel" illuminated with no other display
items. Is this proper? Or do I need to connect either the antenna, the
altitude encoder, or both before I start seeing any items displayed on the panel?
Feedback appreciated.
Thanks,
Sam H.
Zenith 701 kit
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=74927#74927
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TCAD IAS Switch (with link to sketch) |
Bob,
I sat down and examined the resistors and finally figured out that they are a voltage
divider and that the total amperage down any leg in the circuit would 0.007A.
I think I understand how it works now. Thanks.
Don
---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
>
>
> The circuit is just a ground to tell my TCAD that it is on the ground. A
> pressure switch ( I can only find NO in the range I need) is in the pitot
> system. The switch closes at roughly 50 knots. I have access to both ends
> of the switch. The switch is a micro pneumatic logic 503. Maybe you know a
> supplier that would sell me one that is NC.The closing of the switch is
> supposed to open the ground on the TCAD. I can easily convert the no to nc
> by using a relay, but, I thought a transistor may also work?? Just making
> an attempt to learn more electric stuff. I hope that this explanation
> works.
>
> If we knew more about the internal wiring of the TCAD system, perhaps
> the solution could be as simple as the first sketch below.
>
> (I didn't get the attachment here . . . I've posted the sketch
> at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/TCAD_Switch.pdf
>
> However, the second sketch is 99.9% certain to work. All the parts are
> available from Radio Shack.
>
> Bob . . .
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Recomended Alternator |
>
>
>Bob and Bob,
>
>Thanks for the input and recommendations. I do like the B&C products as
>they look to be top of the line quality, I'm just not sure I need to spend
>that much for the type of flying I do. I'm mostly day VFR with some
>occasional clear night flying for no more than about 1 hour before dawn or
>after dusk.
>
>I'm also planning on installing a Dynon EFIS with a back-up battery.
>
>Mike C.
Understand . . . and I'm suggesting that any decision
you make not to spend that kind of money does not bode
ill for the serviceability or reliability of your electrical
system. Keep in mind that the majority of TC aircraft
flying today are carrying batteries and alternators that
we would consider junk by modern standards for ordinary,
consumer grade, off-the-shelf hardware. Further, there
ARE ways to integrate this hardware into an aircraft
such that traditional operational design goals can be
met. Hence, there is no reason supported by simple-ideas
that I or anyone else can recommend against the use
of such products in your airplane.
You DO need a way to disconnect a malfunctioning alternator
from the rest of the system and pulling a b-lead breaker
is NOT the way to do it. If you choose to go the internally
regulated, automotive alternator route know that the means
by which an orderly disconnect can be accomplished is
coming.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave <dave(at)abrahamson.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GTX327 power switching |
My gtx330 displayed everything without either encoder or
antenna. Contrast/brightness adjustment may need to be adjusted?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Bottom line is if somebody mass markets a new
> product with fasteners totally foreign to all popular
> measurement systems but with performance value
> and market appeal, the same manufacturer would make
> a lot of money selling a set of tools to go along
> with the product.
>
> Bob . . .
>
For proof, see "phillips screw".
A more modern reference would be "torx screw".
(Dang-blasted car companies)
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Vacuum Pad Limitations - Weight & Torque... |
Hi Greg et al-
I have no idea what assumptions are built into the max loads the TCDS calls
out, so were it me, I'd verify that the 40 inch pound limit was
specifically at 1g. Otherwise, it sounds like the SD-20 might limit you to
2.2g's. Does anybody out there have an insight into this detail?
>The TCDS also shows that the maximum "overhang moment" of each accessory
>should not exceed 40 inch pounds. By checking the specs at
>http://www.bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf
>it appears that the SD-20 weighs about 5.72 lbs and the CG is 3.15"
>from the flange, for an overhang moment of about 18 inch pounds.
>So far, so good!
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
Stuck in Fahrenheit
After working for years in the International division of the Company and
living in Europe for some time, I tried to make the conversion to metric as
my "mother tongue" for weight and measures. I really tried!
And when I built my RV-6A, I put in an engine monitor that .is all metric.
I read the numbers and know what they mean. I consider myself sort of dual.
But, the bottom line is that I still tend to mentally convert back to the
'English units' when making comparisons between numbers. I am about to give
up and convert the engine monitor to English units of measures.
Maybe I was too old when I tried to convert. I have decided I am now too old
to fight it any longer and will leave it up to future generations. I think
the best we can hope for in the short term is to become proficient in each
system (as Gilles Thesee appears to be with the two languages).
Dale Ensing
do not archieve
>
> This article explains the lack of conversion.
>
> http://capitalastronomers.org/ReganMeasurements.html
>
> As a European I'm accustomed to see US citizens use Fahrenheit for CHT,
> oil temp etc.
> But in an original P51 manual, I'm puzzled to find temps in Celsius.
> How come the Celsius were fashionable in the '40s when only Anglo-Saxons
> were flying US airplanes, and now they have reverted to Fahrenheit ?
>
> Thanks,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Temperature units puzzle |
Old Bob and gang,
I note that no one has mentioned the BA series of wrenches et al, which
produced all those starnge aircraft like the Lancaster bomber and the
Lysander STOL.
I have several sets of these eerie creatures which say "3/8" but neatly fit
a 3/4" hexhead. It's OK if you can multiply by 2.
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
Good Morning Ferg,
And Whitworth! (Did I spell that correctly?)
My Dad had a set of tools that he used when working on
International trucks during the twenties. They were
marked with the size of the bolt that was being used
and would fit the nuts that International Harvester
had decided to use on that particular sized bolt.
He was one happy camper when the SAE standards were
applied to bolt and wrench sizes.
As one who has a lifetime collection (some from my Dad
which he used in the thirties after the SAE stepped
in) of tools, machinery and fasteners:
I'm still happy with those standards.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Fergus Kyle wrote:
> Kyle"
>
> Old Bob and gang,
> I note that no one has mentioned the BA series of
> wrenches et al, which
> produced all those starnge aircraft like the
> Lancaster bomber and the
> Lysander STOL.
> I have several sets of these eerie creatures which
> say "3/8" but neatly fit
> a 3/4" hexhead. It's OK if you can multiply by 2.
>
> Ferg Kyle
> Europa A064 914 Classic
>
>
>
>
> Click on
> about
> provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Recomended Alternator |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> > I do like the B&C products as
> >they look to be top of the line quality, I'm just not sure I need to spend
> >that much
> >Mike C.
>
> Understand . . . and I'm suggesting that any decision
> you make not to spend that kind of money does not bode
> ill for the serviceability or reliability of your electrical
> system. Keep in mind that the majority of TC aircraft
> flying today are carrying batteries and alternators that
> we would consider junk by modern standards for ordinary,
> consumer grade, off-the-shelf hardware.
Ran across a Continental powered Champ the other day that had
one Bendix mag and one Case tractor mag...came that way from
the factory. The Bendix had been rebuilt a couple of times over
the years. The Case finally gave up after 62 years service.....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | GEMS Optical switch |
I did just about everything wrong in acquiring this gizmo except the
price. But it may be a pig in a poke. It's 5VDC, wet probe current sink
(normally closed when wet) and metric thread. I want to use it as a low
fuel indicator, switching a LED on when low fuel, but the switch opens
when the probe is dry...and it's 5V. I can deal with the metric thread.
Is there a way to rearrange it all electrically, so that it does what I
want? Or should I just toss it?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | GEMS Optical switch |
| From: | "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle(at)austin.utexas.edu> |
John,
Which model GEMS unit did you buy? I'm using the ELS-1100 sensor in my
tanks as you've described and they work perfectly.
Mark S.
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Burnaby
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 2:45 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GEMS Optical switch
I did just about everything wrong in acquiring this gizmo except the
price. But it may be a pig in a poke. It's 5VDC, wet probe current sink
(normally closed when wet) and metric thread. I want to use it as a low
fuel indicator, switching a LED on when low fuel, but the switch opens
when the probe is dry...and it's 5V. I can deal with the metric thread.
Is there a way to rearrange it all electrically, so that it does what I
want? Or should I just toss it?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
Thanks to all who responded. Most informative messages. I'll take the
time to thoroughly reread each of them this week-end.
I was much interested to discover that some moves to metric have already
been done in the US.
Of course I'm not suggesting that our American friends change their unit
system, just wondering why the Celsius appeared then disappeared.
I understand the reluctance of those who would stay with the
"inch-pound". We've just been changing to the Euro, and it takes much
time to get the new feel.
But it's great to have the same currency throughout Europe. Except in
Great Britain, of course.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
I was still wondering if I liked Torx heads when they added/changed to Torx II
and Torx Plus (are they the same?). There are dozens of variations of "Phillips"
or similar cross-recess heads.
Around here you can still find 7-32, 9-32, 11-32 etc. from the dim industrial New
England past. There are hundreds of thread standards, but ISO (Metric) takes
the place of almost all of them.
I marked the day the American Empire crumbled on the day NASA decided to build
the US half of the international space station in inches and let everyone else
use ISO metric. This was both cosmically and comically stupid. What if you need
to borrow some fasteners?
I design in both inch and metric (and implemented the metric system at the last
place I worked) and I can tell you that the inch hangs on from fear and ignorance.
I was going to write "inch-system" but there isn't one. Design engineers
often panic when they are forced to change. I tell them not to do conversions,
and don't be afraid--just use the system. But in desperation, they sneak in
cheat sheets...
Let's see one American light year=9,460,730,472,580,800,000 international millimeters.
"THE VERY BIG STUPID" is a thing which breeds by eating The Future. Have you seen
it? It sometimes disguises itself as a good-looking quarterly bottom line,
derived by closing the R&D Department.
--Frank Zappa
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75096#75096
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
>
>I was still wondering if I liked Torx heads when they added/changed to
>Torx II and Torx Plus (are they the same?). There are dozens of variations
>of "Phillips" or similar cross-recess heads.
>
>Around here you can still find 7-32, 9-32, 11-32 etc. from the dim
>industrial New England past. There are hundreds of thread standards, but
>ISO (Metric) takes the place of almost all of them.
>
>I marked the day the American Empire crumbled on the day NASA decided to
>build the US half of the international space station in inches and let
>everyone else use ISO metric. This was both cosmically and comically
>stupid. What if you need to borrow some fasteners?
Agreed . . . for the single machine in an exceedingly
unique marketplace, one wonders about the thought
processes that went into that decision and whether
or not somebody decided that they'd rather spend a finite
budget on design and performance as opposed to process.
>I design in both inch and metric (and implemented the metric system at the
>last place I worked) and I can tell you that the inch hangs on from fear
>and ignorance.
Really? Fear? Ignorance? Please support this
assertion. There's not a person I know that wouldn't
rather work in metric but we have $deca-millions$ (there's
a metric for you) tied up in machine tools and
untold investments in familiarization hours for
the folks that design, build and maintain our products.
Now, explain how a total change-out to ANY other system
will make our cost-out-the-door lower, performance higher,
customer acceptance greater . . . or our stock more
valuable.
> I was going to write "inch-system" but there isn't one. Design engineers
> often panic when they are forced to change. I tell them not to do
> conversions, and don't be afraid--just use the system. But in
> desperation, they sneak in cheat sheets...
That's like saying that a novel written in German is somehow
superior to one written in English. Or that an e-book
should be arbitrarily favored over the print version.
Process does not trump elegant designs crafted of well
organized simple-ideas.
The metric system is becoming more prevalent all the
time and the marketplace is and will continue to adjust
as the economics dictate. Keep in mind that many high volume
production operations call 6% net profit a good thing
causing their stock to rise while the competitor's 4%
profit is not so whippy in the eyes of Wall Street.
And do we suppose the stockholders give a rat's fat
patootie what measurement system was used to produce the
product? Ignorance and fear? Give me a break! It's going
to happen but in it's own good time and not because of (or
lack of) presidential decrees or cabbages lobbed in from
the balcony.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads |
>Comments/Questions: Hey, Bob. Your book and other diagrams (I'm using a
>Subaru in a Zenith 601HD) say to use an 80 amp fuse for the alternator,
>but I don't see a fuse of that size on either your site or on B&C's
>site. Am I missing something? Where would you suggest I get that fuse?
What size alternator do you have? Suggest you
look into an in-line, MAXI fuse holder like
http://tinyurl.com/u6de9
and the appropriate fuse like:
http://tinyurl.com/toqwp
Pick a fuse that is 10 to 20A greater
than alternator rating. You can find these
in automotive parts stores or:
http://tinyurl.com/yydx3m
http://tinyurl.com/voffj
and
http://tinyurl.com/uj5ms
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Hynudai Alternator |
In a message dated 11/2/06 7:48:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mjurotich(at)hst.nasa.gov writes:
> Barry
>
> Since I have little tolerance for archive research, would you please
> tell me the problem and the fix for the alternator?
>
> Thanks
>
> Matthew M. Jurotich
>
> e-mail mail to:
> phone : 301-286-5919
======================
Hello Matthew:
OMG ... You work for NASA. My fingerprints are all over the space station
and on quite a few parts of the Shuttles. I do metal coatings for NASA.
When it comes to the archives - I can't blame you, I have only a three step
tolerance for the archives and AeroElectric as well. The only difference is I
refuse to get into the back & forth Over - Engineered BS session with giftedly
challenged.
And I guess all their BS was not able to help you solve your problem. How
much time and money did you invest into that problem?
One fellow did hit on the problem ... Con-Grads to him.
So what is the problem?
There are two ground systems to the car. One goes from the battery to the
fender/body. The other goes to the engine block.
Guess what the engine block is made of? ALUMINUM, and we all know how poor
aluminum is as a conductor.
Remove the ground strap, wire wheel the area and the battery connector tab.
Install an external STAR WASHER below and above the battery cable, add a
washer and use a new bolt. After all that is done; spray the area with
undercoating. It is a 15 to 30 minute job. It cost me lots of time swapping perfectly
good alternators, replacing the battery (well, that was border line anyway).
Check the area UNDER the Battery Tray, you will find more grounds there.
I failed to heed my own advice ... CHECK THE GROUNDS!
Don't just look at them, remove them, clean them and add more.
My learning experience cost me $139.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have
written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least 0 or 0 worth
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Come to think of it, you do...
Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support YOUR
Lists?
Contribution Page:
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Again, I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that has made a Contribution thus far
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Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Bonding to Aluminum |
Barry,
Thanks for coming back to the group. I missed you.
The timing of your post is amazing. I've recently been doing a lot of
internet "research" on the topic of mobile HF radio installation. The topic
of grounding is BIG in that application. Further, the issue of bonding to
Aluminum is critical.
Your advice to brighten the connector surfaces and use star washers is just
what I'm reading there too. Also, some recommend using antioxidant grease on
the connections. I am told that Aluminum oxidizes so rapidly that one is
advised to wire brush the contacts with the grease on (!) thus preventing
oxidation during the install and in the future. What is your take on this
advice?
Rodney in Tennessee
PS: Barry, I don't think you're "Chop'd Liver". I think you're a
thoroughbred. And I never met a thoroughbred that ain't high strung. I
appreciate your sharing your expertise. I just wish you had a different
hero. That Yamashiada guy is a bit rough!
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Steer" <steerr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads |
Thanks very much, Bob. Any advice on how to join the 8 gauge wire on those
fuse holders to the 4 AWG welding cable?
Regards,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:02 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads
>
>
>
>>Comments/Questions: Hey, Bob. Your book and other diagrams (I'm using a
>>Subaru in a Zenith 601HD) say to use an 80 amp fuse for the alternator,
>>but I don't see a fuse of that size on either your site or on B&C's site.
>>Am I missing something? Where would you suggest I get that fuse?
>
> What size alternator do you have? Suggest you
> look into an in-line, MAXI fuse holder like
>
> http://tinyurl.com/u6de9
>
> and the appropriate fuse like:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/toqwp
>
> Pick a fuse that is 10 to 20A greater
> than alternator rating. You can find these
> in automotive parts stores or:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yydx3m
>
> http://tinyurl.com/voffj
>
> and
>
> http://tinyurl.com/uj5ms
>
> Bob . . .
> -----------------------------------------
> ( Experience and common sense cannot be )
> ( replaced with policy and procedures. )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> -----------------------------------------
>
>
> --
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads |
>
>Thanks very much, Bob. Any advice on how to join the 8 gauge wire on
>those fuse holders to the 4 AWG welding cable?
Keep in mind that the wire sizes, fuse sizes and choices
of what electro-whizzies power from which busses is a big
variable in the fabrication of your electrical system.
The VALUES shown in the z-figures are intended to give
a sense of proportion to a wire or fuse's duties. When I
show a 4AWG, that's a FAT wire but it may well be that
your system will call for a 2AWG or even an 8AWG.
It may also be that 4AWG, welding cable jumpers to
the lead posts on a battery are chosen for their mechanical
flexibility and friendliness to the batter in spite of
the fact that the rest of the FAT wires are 2AWG.
So, let's consider the wire sizing task for your application.
What z-figure, what size alternator?. Do you plan to have a
loadmeter shunt? How long is the run from your alternator b-lead
terminal and where to you plan to attach it?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GEMS Optical switch |
GEMS Optical Liquid Level Sensor number ELS-900. This sensor uses light
(infra-red) to determine if liquid is in contact with the tapered
section of the sensor. It is a very high temp sensor (for use from -40
up to 125 deg C), is very small and is completely solid state (no moving
parts for highest reliability). The housing is made of Polyethersulfone
which is very resistant to most chemicals. The included o-ring is Viton
and the threads are M12 x 1-8. The pressure range is 0 to 250 psi. It
runs on 5 Vdc and consumes 4 mA. It has been shock, EMI and vibration
tested to MIL specifications and it meets specific CE and UL
requirements. It is a probe wet = current sink type. The wires are
approximately 6" long and the sensor's length is 32 mm. It comes in an
EMI shielded bag.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
>I design in both inch and metric (and implemented the metric system at the
>last place I worked) and I can tell you that the inch hangs on from fear
>and ignorance. ---snip from Eric's message.
> Bob--Really? Fear? Ignorance? Please support this
> assertion. There's not a person I know that wouldn't
> rather work in metric but we have $deca-millions$ (there's
> a metric for you) tied up in machine tools and
> untold investments in familiarization hours for
> the folks that design, build and maintain our products.
Thanks for the slow pitch Bob. I'll swing at it.
Pow!...You bet. FEAR and IGNORANCE--the opposite of courage and understanding.
You may ascribe different emotions to engineers whose internal psyches make them
more comfortable STILL designing in inches and then converting to metric--sometimes
by pushing a button on their CAD system-- (the tolerances especially
become a nightmare), but I've seen these guys turn white with fear when facing
the task of completely abandoning their cozy conversion-filled measurement nests.
Okay, call it crazy and stupid--or shortsighted and provincial. I tried being
reasonable...I didn't like it.
> Bob--There's not a person I know that wouldn't rather work in metric.
Then you don't know many engineers, designers and draftspeople who spent their
whole careers poking and scratching in inches. Change is scarey.
> Bob-- ...but we have $deca-millions$ (there's a metric for you) tied up in machine
tools
Congratulations. So you've figured out what happened to our machine tool industry.
Foreigners are worried about buying our stuff because their mechanics can't
find bolts to screw into them. If you don't believe it you haven't talked to
foreign engineers. Ask them about their perceptions and get back to us.
> Bob--...and untold investments in familiarization hours for the folks that design,
build and maintain our products.
You hit the metric nail right on the head. In ten more years we will have ten more
years of "familiarization hours". Suck it up and take the leap. It ain't really
so hard.
> Bob-- Now, explain how a total change-out to ANY other system will make our
cost-out-the-door lower, performance higher, customer acceptance greater . . .
or our stock more valuable.
You are right again Bob--If you look at the next quarter only, or if you only look
at the local market, or if you don't care two farts that the US has been HOBBLED
by a difficult, antique and orphaned syst...(oops, there I almost goofed
again)...trash can of smelly old measurements. In many companies, when the metric
conversion question is raised, the chief engineer runs up to the VP's office
and cries that armagedon will befall us. The truth is, in MY REAL EXPERIENCE,
that the whole thing is much ado about nothing. The machinists never complained,
the parts price didn't go up, the metric-screw vendors drove better cars.
The only problem was the chief engineers who complained to the VPs. Their
brilliant solution was dual-dimensioning. Now THERE"S an IDEA. Twice the errors.
Half the benefit...but that's why they wear the big floppy shoes.
> Bob--.total change-out to ANY other system...
I never said "Total Change-out". YOU DID, just to frighten people. Sure, there
are plenty of reasonable exceptions. The English still drink ale in pints and
measure horses in hands. Customary units that don't have to travel much are still
around. Lumber 2 X 4's never were 2" x 4". Modular systems don't bother anybody.
I don't know how big a brick is and hardly anyone cares. My seeming intractibility
on this issue is the result of dealing with too many smart people
who spend their time justifying their own way. Yikes...
I've got a couple questions for you, Bob....1) How big in inches is a fuel tank
that holds ten quarts? The similar calculation is TRIVIAL in metric and you don't
have to look up anything. --And 2) Why don't you spend some time overseas
and get some perspective? We aren't in Kansas anymore Bob.
> Bob-- That's like saying that a novel written in German is somehow
> superior to one written in English. Or that an e-book should be arbitrarily favored
over the print version. Process does not trump elegant designs crafted
of well organized simple-ideas.
Ridiculous and irrelevant. It turns out that the same novel written in French probably
IS better than one written in German. Paper IS easier to read than e-books.
Process trumps elegant designs crafted of well organized simple-ideas (I
had a girlfriend who spoke French in bed).... What does this have to do with
anything? Would you like a measurement system OR NOT? Inches, feet, miles, hogsheads,
barrels, pints, and yards isn't a system.
Quote by John Coltrane in English: "It was my beans and bacon...ya know. Jazz was
my tea and crumpets, my toast and jam...." French translation: "C'est tout
le monde ". So you can never be sure.
> Bob--The metric system is becoming more prevalent all the
> time and the marketplace is and will continue to adjust
> as the economics dictate. Keep in mind that many high volume
> production operations call 6% net profit a good thing
> causing their stock to rise while the competitor's 4%
> profit is not so whippy in the eyes of Wall Street.
>
> And do we suppose the stockholders give a rat's fat
> patootie what measurement system was used to produce the
> product? Ignorance and fear? Give me a break! It's going
> to happen but in it's own good time and not because of (or
> lack of) presidential decrees or cabbages lobbed in from
> the balcony. Bob . . .
Yes let's all go slow. Here's my cabbage--the US signed onto the metric system
in 1866. No sense hurrying things, eh?
Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
(Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75300#75300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Campbell" <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
Eric's comment about NASA reminded me
of a humorous (except to taxpayers)
story which I guarantee is 100% true...
I was rooting around at a metal recycling / selling place near
Oakland airport and came across a BIG box with spools
of aviation grade wire. They wanted $1/pound so I started
pulling out all the spools of Teflon & Tefzel wire that looked useful.
In the same box were a bunch of components in ESD bags.
Those are the silver & pink bags that shield sensitive components
from "ElectroStatic Discharge" damage. I opened a few to see
what was inside (these were $1/pound too ;-)
Turns out the box contained a bunch of stuff surplused from Loral
for the International Space Station (non-flight backup / mockup / ???)
Digging through this box showed me clearly why everything in the space
industry is SOOOO expensive! Sure, I found 17 different versions
of a prototype circuit board - about 2" x 3" that must do some arcane thing.
But... at least those deserved to be double bagged and accompanied by
10 or more pages of paperwork. But some of the other stuff....
They apparently used the same "bagging & marking" system to ship ALL
the goods provided for the NASA contract. Some ESD bags contained
a 17 page shipping list, and if you looked carefully - you would eventually
find
that line 10 on page 14 listed "Washers, Flat, 8/32 - Qty 2" -
and sure enough, there would be two little flat washers in the bag, or
tucked
into the folds of the 17 page shipping list. I could only imagine the
paperwork
that would be required to replace one of the washers if it got lost in the
folds of paper or bags.
Other items which were dutifully protected by double ESD bags and ample
paperwork included resistors, screws, mounting brackets, etc..
This appalled me on one level, and amused on other. As I opened the various
ESD pouches it was a little like Christmas - each was a surprise. And just
like Christmas, the pile of discarded paperwork and ESD bags grew & grew!
In the end, I bought lots of wire (enough for several airplanes), and saved
a
few of the circuit boards as souvenier trinkets showing (the miniscule
changes)
from Version 00 to Version 17. But the cheapskate in me couldn't see paying
a $1 per pound for all that paperwork, so I left that behind!
So... my airplane is wired with "space grade" aviation wire. I had to look
up
some of the codes to see what they wire. Turns out that some of the wire
is silver plated. Neat stuff - and quite an insight into NASA's business
practices.
At least they're trying!
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temperature units puzzle |
Yeah, sure, the metric system is terrific, except, they screwed up a lot
of units. Temperature..too big, so that everything has to be expressed
as a decimal instead of integers. Pressure, same thing, at least for
tires. Torque, ditto. Distance..ditto. Centimeters are too small, meters
are too big. Oh, and the real big deal....all land in the US is titled
in English units that require hard conversion of every legal title
document at horrendous billions of dollars. The transportation industry
tried to convert. Because of the real estate involved, two sets of plans
had to be done for every project at a huge waste of money, with
subsequent high likelihood of mistakes, that could and did happen. FHWA
and many states came to their senses and abandoned the effort. Then you
have the bastardized METAR system, that winds up using English, nautical
and metric units all in the same weather sequence. What a load of crap!
Remember that 90% of all flights in the world occur within the US
border.........so why in the world should they be done to foreign
standards? You gonna pay to replace every altimeter, VSI airspeed and
temperature gauges with metric? Not me.
Machining and hardware manufacture is just a small piece of the
puzzle...but you already knew that.
>
> Yes let's all go slow. Here's my cabbage--the US signed onto the metric system
in 1866. No sense hurrying things, eh?
>
> Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say."
> (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads |
Bill
You might find marine Maxi fuse holders useful. I think mine is from
Blue Sea and as I recall it has 3/16" bolts for ring terminals so that
any size wire is easy to use. The bolts also increase the grip force on
the fuse legs.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks very much, Bob. Any advice on how to join the 8 gauge wire on
>> those fuse holders to the 4 AWG welding cable?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: metric salvation |
>
> > Bob--Really? Fear? Ignorance? Please support this
> > assertion. There's not a person I know that wouldn't
> > rather work in metric but we have $deca-millions$ (there's
> > a metric for you) tied up in machine tools and
> > untold investments in familiarization hours for
> > the folks that design, build and maintain our products.
>
>
>Thanks for the slow pitch Bob. I'll swing at it.
>
>Pow!...You bet. FEAR and IGNORANCE--the opposite of courage and
>understanding. You may ascribe different emotions to engineers whose
>internal psyches make them more comfortable STILL designing in inches and
>then converting to metric--sometimes by pushing a button on their CAD
>system-- (the tolerances especially become a nightmare), but I've seen
>these guys turn white with fear when facing the task of completely
>abandoning their cozy conversion-filled measurement nests. Okay, call it
>crazy and stupid--or shortsighted and provincial. I tried being
>reasonable...I didn't like it.
Hmmm . . . I'm amazed at what appears to be a simple,
free-market, economic phenomenon being morphed into a diagnosed
pandemic of personality disorders. How do you do it?
Telekinetic psychoanalysis? "White with fear"? . . . I
work with about 800 other folks in engineering at RAC.
If any of them are suffering from your diagnosed malady,
they hide it well. Haven't seen a face go white since
I've worked there and we've faced problems a whole lot
more challenging than deciding which units the CAD system
runs in.
Assume our ignorance and fear of adopting an alternative
language by which we conduct the business of our craft
is as pervasive as you suggest. May we then be excused
for our failure to acknowledge and embrace your diagnosis?
Obviously, persons afflicted with such selective personality
disorders cannot be expected to respond to a therapy
of simple revelation of our wretched condition. What
is your prescription? Presidential decree? Congressional
legislation? A court decision that brands all transgressors
criminal?
Do you think it would help me to at least throw off
the shackles of cowardice? Perhaps I could email my
CEO and explain, "I have it on good authority that
we're all screwing over ourselves, customers, country and
perhaps even the planet by not rising above our collective
ignorant cowardice." I could suggest a ceremonial burning of the
yardsticks out in the parking lot to signal our corporate
salvation and rebirth.
But alas, I must confess that I cannot rise to that simple
act of redemption. I'm afraid I must seek solace in
the distorted understanding of a craft by which I and my
ignorant (and cowardly) companions have delivered product for
all these years. I AM trying. I've had customers request
that my work product be delivered in metric, and you're
right, it's no big deal. Fortunately for me, AutoCAD is
neither ignorant or cowardly. I humbly beg your indulgence
and forgiveness as I struggle with existence in my slightly
deranged professional haze.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Units puzzle |
>
>
> Yeah, sure, the metric system is terrific, except, they screwed up a lot
> of units. Temperature..too big, so that everything has to be expressed as
> a decimal instead of integers. Pressure, same thing, at least for tires.
> Torque, ditto. Distance..ditto. Centimeters are too small, meters are too
> big. Oh, and the real big deal....all land in the US is titled in English
> units that require hard conversion of every legal title document at
> horrendous billions of dollars. The transportation industry tried to
> convert. Because of the real estate involved, two sets of plans had to be
> done for every project at a huge waste of money, with subsequent high
> likelihood of mistakes, that could and did happen. FHWA and many states
> came to their senses and abandoned the effort. Then you have the
> bastardized METAR system, that winds up using English, nautical and metric
> units all in the same weather sequence. What a load of crap! Remember that
> 90% of all flights in the world occur within the US border.........so why
> in the world should they be done to foreign standards? You gonna pay to
> replace every altimeter, VSI airspeed and temperature gauges with metric?
> Not me.
> Machining and hardware manufacture is just a small piece of the
> puzzle...but you already knew that.
I don't want to contribute to an "USA versus the rest of the World"
discussion, neither I have anything against you Kelly (whom I don't know),
but the text you wrote is an excellent example of expression of a typical
"Yankee-Uncle Sam" position which makes the USA to be hated by the rest of
the world. And normally, history tell us that, that's the beginning of the
"End of an Empire".
Let me add that I love your country, your people, most of your system of
life (democracy, justice, economy), but when somebody says something like
"... 90% of all flights in the world occur within the US
> border.........so why in the world should they be done to foreign
> standards?", which demonstrates what has been called as "American
> Egocentrism", you begin to loose your reason.
My opinion about this System of Units discussion is that America should
evaluate precisely the economic impact of such a change, which will have
costs and benefices, and decide what to do rationally, leaving emotional
issues apart.
It is obvious that we no longer trade horses for cereals, when the English
system was invented, and that a decimal system of units is far superior, but
since "there ain't such a thing like a free lunch", the decision must be
made based on economic grounds
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Units puzzle |
>
>
>I don't want to contribute to an "USA versus the rest of the World"
>discussion, neither I have anything against you Kelly (whom I don't know),
>but the text you wrote is an excellent example of expression of a typical
>"Yankee-Uncle Sam" position which makes the USA to be hated by the rest of
>the world. And normally, history tell us that, that's the beginning of the
>"End of an Empire".
>Let me add that I love your country, your people, most of your system of
>life (democracy, justice, economy), but when somebody says something like
>"... 90% of all flights in the world occur within the US
>>border.........so why in the world should they be done to foreign
>>standards?", which demonstrates what has been called as "American
>>Egocentrism", you begin to loose your reason.
>My opinion about this System of Units discussion is that America should
>evaluate precisely the economic impact of such a change, which will have
>costs and benefices, and decide what to do rationally, leaving emotional
>issues apart.
>It is obvious that we no longer trade horses for cereals, when the English
>system was invented, and that a decimal system of units is far superior,
>but since "there ain't such a thing like a free lunch", the decision must
>be made based on economic grounds.
Absolutely . . . and as long as there is no intent to
defraud or to deprive anyone of liberty, each supplier
of services is free to make what ever deal they wish
with prospective consumers of those services. If one
wishes NOT to own a product crafted under their favorite
dogma, they're free to not buy it. And certainly, anyone is
free to express whatever opinions they might have on
the matter.
But the fundamental question remains: What value is added
to this or any other venue by the exchange of personal
judgements couched in hyperbolic and pejorative ideas
and words?
It's a certainty that we're not going to solve (or even
exert a favorable influence upon) the matter here. Suppose
we leave weighty discussions on world order to others.
It's a certainty that they'll produce no more influence
on the direction and outcome than we. I'll
suggest we get back to the business of refining the
best we know how to do
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads |
>
>Bill
>You might find marine Maxi fuse holders useful. I think mine is from Blue
>Sea and as I recall it has 3/16" bolts for ring terminals so that any size
>wire is easy to use. The bolts also increase the grip force on the fuse legs.
>Ken
Ken, thanks for the heads-up on this. Folks, Ken is referring
to the product described at:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yh8swz
It's a bit more bulky than the inline fuse holder but does
offer a solution to the wire attachment questions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob and all,
> I'll
> suggest we get back to the business of refining the
> best we know how to do
>
There has been a discussion on French homebuilding list servers, about
US thread and drill bit sizes.
I compiled the following drill bit conversion table to inches and
millimeters. :
http://contrails.free.fr/article_drill_size_en.php
from different sources and re-computed fractional inches
I would welcome any feedback from listers here, about possible errors,
omissions, etc.
Thanks,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
Good Afternoon Gilles,
You are very kind to be sharing this data with us, but
I wonder if it wouldn't be better if the inch based
sizes were listed down to the closest ten thousandth
of an inch rather than to the closest thousandth?
Back when I was gainfully employed as a flunky in a
tool and die shop, the pros constantly worked to the
closest "tenth" meaning one ten thousandth of an inch.
When making custom fits, they occasionally worked to
even tighter tolerances.
One one thousandth of an inch was considered a very
rough approximation!
As I am sure you have noted, you list several of the
number sized drills as having identical dimensions due
to their being rounded off to the closest one
thousandth of an inch.
Back before GAMI managed to get their balanced
injection nozzles approved, I was boring my own.
In those days, I would buy a package of small "number"
drills of one size and note that those drills would
vary in size by two or three tenths (One ten
thousandth of an inch). I found that it did make a
difference which drill I used as to how my injection
nozzles flowed.
While I am certainly NOT a good machinist, I do know
that, even in our phase of aviation, one ten
thousandth of an inch can make a difference.
Thanks again and:
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
--- Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
wrote:
> Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Bob and all,
>
> > I'll
> > suggest we get back to the business of refining
> the
> > best we know how to do
> >
> There has been a discussion on French homebuilding
> list servers, about
> US thread and drill bit sizes.
> I compiled the following drill bit conversion table
> to inches and
> millimeters. :
>
> http://contrails.free.fr/article_drill_size_en.php
>
> from different sources and re-computed fractional
> inches
> I would welcome any feedback from listers here,
> about possible errors,
> omissions, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Click on
> about
> provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob,
>
> As I am sure you have noted, you list several of the
> number sized drills as having identical dimensions due
> to their being rounded off to the closest one
> thousandth of an inch.
>
Thank you for your message.
I must confess that my mind was set on the millimeter values.
Indeed, we consider one thousandth of an inch as large tolerance, as it
is 2.5 "hundredth" of a millimeter.
I'll correct the table.
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | lighted toggle switches |
Bob,
I've settled on lighted toggle switches made by Lumex, with a plan to
run all the LEDs through a dimmer circuit composed of one of those MPJA
DC motor controllers. Now that I'm about to put them all together, I'm
not sure how the wiring is supposed to go. A diagram of the switch's
internal circuit can be found at
http://www.lumex.com/spec.asp?p_n=CLS-TC11A12251B The diagram is on
the lower right of the page.
I thought that the switched circuit would be between the POWER and
GROUND terminals, and I would connect my dimmer power line to ACC. I'm
now thinking that the switched circuit will be between POWER and ACC,
and that I will have to modify the motor controller to cycle a
transistor that grounds the GROUND tab to dim the LEDs. Can you
please set me straight?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vincent S. Himsl" <vhimsl(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | lighted toggle switches |
Hello Ernest,
Examining the Lumex schematic, you run +12 VDC to the 'power' input, the ACC
pin to the device you wish to control, with the device going to ground.
You would connect the dimmer to the ground of the LED ground (adding
resistance to dim) and then ground the other side of the dimmer.
I too wish to use lighted LED switches (they make so much sense). However
looking at the switch wiring, it appears that the LED only lights when the
switch is in the 'ON' position. I want the LED lights to be lit when they
are off as well so I can find them in the dark.
Vince
RV8-Finish
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Christley
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 3:58 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: lighted toggle switches
Bob,
I've settled on lighted toggle switches made by Lumex, with a plan to
run all the LEDs through a dimmer circuit composed of one of those MPJA
DC motor controllers. Now that I'm about to put them all together, I'm
not sure how the wiring is supposed to go. A diagram of the switch's
internal circuit can be found at
http://www.lumex.com/spec.asp?p_n=CLS-TC11A12251B The diagram is on
the lower right of the page.
I thought that the switched circuit would be between the POWER and
GROUND terminals, and I would connect my dimmer power line to ACC. I'm
now thinking that the switched circuit will be between POWER and ACC,
and that I will have to modify the motor controller to cycle a
transistor that grounds the GROUND tab to dim the LEDs. Can you
please set me straight?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
to BOB and ERIC,
I enjoy reading your epithets, one and another. It's a bit like
watching two goliaths (or mebbe even Universe Wrestling Finals), especially
when we read of the difficulties in changing systems.
[1] Ontario province followed the Uk in accepting A2 metric paper sizes,
and finally abandonned the practice after a number of years - not their
money!
[2] We've switched to kilometers - the Quebeckers are still trying tell
us how to pronounce them (by ignoring English pronunciation rules) - but we
still get speeding tickets......
[3] We're on Celsius - so what? Pilots have been translating in their
heads for 9 decades..... Try cruising in meters ASL.
[4] All these creaking Imperial-based milling machines aren't selling
ovewrseas are they?
[5] The Brits for all their 'forward-thinking' stance still drive in
....... miles(?)
[6] One old Brit sweetheart said, "Why don't they wait until all us old
folk are dead?"
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
I've also enjoyed reading this discussion and offer this. I was brought up
(in England) on feet & inches, converted to metric at secondary/high school
and used metric (mostly) through college. At work we were building two
aircraft, one measured in imperial (Harrier) and the other in metric (Hawk),
it wasn't a huge deal for me as I was straight out of college. Some of the
older folks did struggle, and pretty much all of the older (WWII) vintage
machine tools were in inches while the newer ones were metric, or had both
scales - of course the NC machines could change at the touch of a button.
Now I'm back to imperial as I've been working in the US for 4 years.
The biggest single benefit to working in metric is in the engineering
department where F=ma actually makes sense using Newtons as a measure of
force. Ibf have always been a rather dumb cludge, I never got used to using
slugs as a measure of mass when doing stress calcs, and always had to look
up the crib sheet for how to work the equations. Yes, there are still traps
for the unwary - the basic lift and drag equations are a good example - but
the pretty much whole Hawker engineering department adopted the metric
system quickly (but there wasn't any choice, they may have been smart enough
to realize that!). As the AV-8B Harrier is still imperial the situation
hasn't changed 25 years on, but most of the engineering is done in metric
and converted at the last moment when required.
The other issue is that GA is unlikely to convert to metric any time soon
while about 95% of the fleet uses metric hardware. I have owned French and
German aeroplanes, obtaining reasonable grade metric hardware (even in
Europe) can be difficult. I'm quite happy using either side of the ruler
when fixing my RV, sometimes metric is easier, sometimes imperial. I'm sure
that many people in the US are comfortable working in metric judging by the
number of Japanese cars on the road. Just become ambidextrous and use the
most appropriate system for the task at hand.
Yours, Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fergus
Kyle
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:34 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: METRIC!
to BOB and ERIC,
I enjoy reading your epithets, one and another. It's a bit like
watching two goliaths (or mebbe even Universe Wrestling Finals), especially
when we read of the difficulties in changing systems.
[1] Ontario province followed the Uk in accepting A2 metric paper sizes,
and finally abandonned the practice after a number of years - not their
money!
[2] We've switched to kilometers - the Quebeckers are still trying tell
us how to pronounce them (by ignoring English pronunciation rules) - but we
still get speeding tickets......
[3] We're on Celsius - so what? Pilots have been translating in their
heads for 9 decades..... Try cruising in meters ASL.
[4] All these creaking Imperial-based milling machines aren't selling
ovewrseas are they?
[5] The Brits for all their 'forward-thinking' stance still drive in
....... miles(?)
[6] One old Brit sweetheart said, "Why don't they wait until all us old
folk are dead?"
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harold Kovac" <kayce33(at)earthlink.net> |
Hi Fergus,
Are they still using " x # of yards to the exit" in Wales?
That's the one that threw me some years ago.
Harold Kovac
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:33 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: METRIC!
>
> to BOB and ERIC,
> I enjoy reading your epithets, one and another. It's a bit like
> watching two goliaths (or mebbe even Universe Wrestling Finals),
> especially
> when we read of the difficulties in changing systems.
>
> [1] Ontario province followed the Uk in accepting A2 metric paper
> sizes,
> and finally abandonned the practice after a number of years - not their
> money!
> [2] We've switched to kilometers - the Quebeckers are still trying tell
> us how to pronounce them (by ignoring English pronunciation rules) - but
> we
> still get speeding tickets......
> [3] We're on Celsius - so what? Pilots have been translating in their
> heads for 9 decades..... Try cruising in meters ASL.
> [4] All these creaking Imperial-based milling machines aren't selling
> ovewrseas are they?
> [5] The Brits for all their 'forward-thinking' stance still drive in
> ....... miles(?)
> [6] One old Brit sweetheart said, "Why don't they wait until all us old
> folk are dead?"
>
> Ferg Kyle
> Europa A064 914 Classic
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in general, impossible
and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.
E.g. Drills: Inch (non-system)= 3, 7/32", 2, 1, A, 15/64", 6 mm, B, C... (okay
so that's what's in MY shop and probably most shops). Metric 5.4, 5.5, 5.6, 5.7...etc.
What is the economic impact?
I buy 4 mm titanium sheet to replace a Glastar 3/16 inch stainless part. (P.S.
Only my Swiss customers object, everyone else ignores the difference in thickness).
There IS no 3/16 titanium sheet. What is the economic impact?
All science is done in metric. What is the economic impact if you don't go along?
There IS and never was an inch "system". There IS a metric system. What is the
economic impact?
Metric is based on mass and U.S. weights and measures is based on weight. Now what
is the economic impact? Does it matter where you live? If a 1000 kilogram
spaceship lands on the Sun (okay, at night) what does it weigh? What's it's mass?
"NASA reports that they've found the cause for the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter.
One of the engineering teams was using English units and another team was
using Metric units." Now what was the economic impact?
Saying big grown-up words like "economic impact" makes one LOOK like he actually
knows something whereas--they are just boardroom mumbo-jumbos targeted to get
knowing nods from the clueless stock-optioned MBAs who run our companies, but
are totally BS (and that doesn't mean British Standard or Brown and Sharpe).
Most studies of the "economic impact of changes" restrict their scope to very narrow
(and short-term) economic issues. --Because that is the only place where
those studies are reasonably successful.
As you can probably tell, I advocate metrication strongly, but I can't tell you
if any particular company or product should change or not. The economic impact
in the long term for the hubris of thinking the US can do things however it
likes, is very large.
"Mankind faces a cross-roads.
One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.
The other, to total extinction.
Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly."
--Woody Allen
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75600#75600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
>Eric's comment about NASA reminded me
>of a humorous (except to taxpayers)
>story which I guarantee is 100% true...
>
>
>I was rooting around at a metal recycling / selling place near
>Oakland airport and came across a BIG box with spools
>of aviation grade wire. They wanted $1/pound so I started
>pulling out all the spools of Teflon & Tefzel wire that looked useful.
>
>In the same box were a bunch of components in ESD bags.
>Those are the silver & pink bags that shield sensitive components
>from "ElectroStatic Discharge" damage. I opened a few to see
>what was inside (these were $1/pound too ;-)
>
>They apparently used the same "bagging & marking" system to ship ALL
>the goods provided for the NASA contract. Some ESD bags contained
>a 17 page shipping list, and if you looked carefully - you would
>eventually find
>that line 10 on page 14 listed "Washers, Flat, 8/32 - Qty 2" -
>and sure enough, there would be two little flat washers in the bag, or tucked
>into the folds of the 17 page shipping list. I could only imagine the
>paperwork
>that would be required to replace one of the washers if it got lost in the
>folds of paper or bags.
>
>Other items which were dutifully protected by double ESD bags and ample
>paperwork included resistors, screws, mounting brackets, etc..
>
>This appalled me on one level, and amused on other. As I opened the various
>ESD pouches it was a little like Christmas - each was a surprise. And just
>like Christmas, the pile of discarded paperwork and ESD bags grew & grew!
>In the end, I bought lots of wire (enough for several airplanes), and saved a
>few of the circuit boards as souvenier trinkets showing (the miniscule
>changes)
>from Version 00 to Version 17. But the cheapskate in me couldn't see paying
>a $1 per pound for all that paperwork, so I left that behind!
The reason for what appears to be organized insanity is
relatively simple. I'll suggest that a view from inside-looking-
out is illuminating.
Most of my tenure at Raytheon (Beech) was in the Missiles
Business Unit. We were as close to a skunk works as could be found
in Wichita aviation. We did our own aero, structures and
systems designs. We did our own software, laid out our own
boards, prototyped and flew our own products after a rigorous
pass over a hardware-in-the-loop simulation (for software)
teamed with 100% shake-n-bake screening (for hardware). We
were a small group . . . about 100 folks at our peak. My division
vice president was 25 steps from my desk. The folks bucking rivets
were immediately under my desk on the floor below. Everyone
enjoyed their work as far as I could tell. It was demonstrated
by the attitudes displayed in our team meetings. No matter how
bad things might be going in some segment of the project,
one always walked out of a meeting encouraged by the support
and offers for help from others on the team. We all had the
same goal. Deliver a working product to a satisfied customer
and have fun doing it.
One product we crafted was the AQM-37 super-sonic target.
Launched at 1.5M and 50,000 feet, it would climb to 125,000
feet, accelerate to 4.0M and dive on ships a sea. It cost about
$100,000 and always went into the ocean.
But it was JUST a target. It would be used one time
only. How much effort should be expended on reliability?
The short answer is LOTS. To utilize our $100,000 expendable
took months of planning and organization by others to get
all the aircraft, ships, men, weapons and test support systems
in place. I imagine that when our little player entered the
scene from stage right, several $millions$ had already
been spent to set the stage.
For 1100 or so launches, I think our AQM pooped its pants
two or three times. All in all, we felt pretty good about
a 99.7 or 99.8 percent reliability number. Our competition
was not nearly so good. Nonetheless, there were times that
we had to gather up our shovels and buckets and exit the
sandbox in disappointment. It may well be that the 6 o'clock
news opened with some breathless journotwit telling the
locals how some cowtown aerospace company just screwed the
taxpayers out of a few $millions$.
Static bags? Yeah we used those. But not for washers.
Pieces of paper in every bag? Only on some complex items.
How did we avoid carrying those practices to the
ultimate extreme? Two conditions: (1) smart people and
(2) very little "standing in line at windows". More
on this later.
Now, let's multiply Beech Missiles by 100 or 200 fold.
Transplant from Cowpattyville, KS and spread out over
places like L.A., Orlando, Trenton, and Seattle. Add to
this mix the fact that our mission cost is 20 to 100
$millions$ per shot. Stir in EPA, OSHA, Union, ISO,
etc. work rules along with administrators of those rules
who have it in their power to bring some segment (and
essentially all) of your program to a halt.
Finally, add the fact that there are watchdogs throughout
the system who are intent not so much on getting the job
done right but on insuring traceability and assessing
proper assignment of blame should things NOT go right.
One might properly conclude, "Well, just staff your operation
with smart people and most of your problems go away."
True. But in the NASA venue, one is not allowed to be
very selective about who touches what and under what
circumstances. Further, a 99.8% reliability number
is far short of satisfactory. So what's a poor NASA
program manager to do? The personnel are handed to you
by HR. The materials are handed you my supply
chain. The work rules are handed to you by folks
who could not care less that your product is
successful or even good value. . . you "do it by the
rules or else." Hence, every aspect of the program
is carved into almost unchangeable stone before the
first lathe tool touches a piece of aluminum.
Hence, the "safest" thing to do is double-bag everything
including the lock washers. Document the pedigree of
every rivet all the way back to the bauxite mine. You're
driven to stack every precaution one can imagine
on top of every effort - not because it makes
probability of success greater but because it allows
you to show that it wasn't your fault when the product
poops its pants.
There's an interesting little interview with a modern
day Charles Kettering on my website. The man's name
is Dr. Virgil Elings. You can get the audio track at:
http://tinyurl.com/nudtw
This gentleman has demonstrated that the most efficient
pathway to success is an exploitation of time, talent
and resources of "smart people" who are not encumbered
by what I call, "impediments to progress" and he calls,
"standing in line at windows". I've worked with some
very capable associates and managers but my professional
wet-dream would be to have enjoyed an association with
the likes of Dr. Elings.
Bottom line is that there are really clear (if not sane)
reasons for $600 hammers, $400 toilet seats and double static
bagged washers. Reasons that breathless infotwits
will never understand and the majority of their audiences
wont either. Our leadership's (I use the word
with reservedly) insatiable quest to codify every
aspect of the citizen's existence has become our
own worst nighmare of no-value-added overhead. Overhead
intended only to absolve most of us of responsibility,
relieve us from any self judgement as to the honorability
of our behavior and insulate us from blame. Plotting present
trends out to the future does not offer an encouraging
picture.
I'm ALWAYS away from my desk when the ISO audit folks
are scheduled to come though the department. It's
insurance against embarrassing my company should I
succumb to the urge for letting those folks know what
I think of their presence in my workplace.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in
>general, impossible and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.
So what is your prescription sir? Assume
your assertions about economics and consumer
driven marketplaces are as trivial as you
suggest. Assume further that the only impediment
to progress is fear and ignorance, now what?
Nobody is arguing against the elegance of the metric
measurement system.
You've not answered my questions as to your
vision to the path for success. What would
you have us do? If you're going to codify
an effort to shepherd reluctant grooms to
the altar, is it your vision that men with
guns should be standing behind them?
Short of that, what alternatives would you
suggest and by what means would they be
accomplished?
If your energetic protestations carry any
weight sir, they should be supported by workable
alternatives. Alternatives permitted in a
society where folks still enjoy some degree of
freedom and liberty.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Lucky for me, I don't need to have a prescription to know that there IS one. I
also know that any prescription I have will be both correct and voted down. It's
that Cassandra-thing, and the reason I stay off committees.
I realize that some upset will occur. I also know some people in the US are working
on the issue--and good luck to them. The European experience of single currency,
single laws, no passports gives me hope that miracles happen.
I was frankly baffled when the ISO Quality stuff and the NAFTA stuff didn't have
a metric provision. That would have been an easy way to go metric.
When I converted the last place I worked to metric, I finally did it by a short
simple decree, written by me but signed by the big cheese. This seemed the only
practical way forward. I distributed NBS metrication literature kits and Bossard
catalogs and alerted our fastener vendors and machining vendors. But what
we did was worldwide scientific and medical devices so this was pretty straighforward.
Some of it was a godsend, since we had spent too much time converting
units--some units had gone from Inch to Metric to Inch to Metric several times.
We encouraged thinking in metric and it became a little game. We discouraged
doing conversions and banned double-dimensioning in most cases. NEW projects
were metric; legacy designs were left as-is until major redesign was due.
I frankly don't know how other companies would handle the conversion. Aircraft
industries might be more difficult than others, but perhaps not. Computers were
metric from the beginning with some legacy 6-32 screws here and there. A 5-1/4"
diskette is really a 135 mm diskette. A 3-1/2" diskette is really a 90 mm
diskette.
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: METRIC!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in
general, impossible and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.
So what is your prescription sir? Assume
your assertions about economics and consumer
driven marketplaces are as trivial as you
suggest. Assume further that the only impediment
to progress is fear and ignorance, now what?
Nobody is arguing against the elegance of the metric
measurement system.
> You've not answered my questions as to your
> vision to the path for success. .....snip
> Short of that, what alternatives would you
> suggest and by what means would they be
> accomplished?
Cooler heads than yours and mine can decide.
"The despotism of custom is everywhere the standing hindrance to human advancement."
--John Stuart Mill
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75649#75649
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
Very well said. However, you might be preaching to the choir here :).
As most of my working life has been for, and in, gov't., I can relate
100% and do attest that everything you say is true.
If you try to fix it, regardless of your personal grade (rank), you are
called Don Quixote and subsequently ignored.
David M.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>> Eric's comment about NASA reminded me
>> of a humorous (except to taxpayers)
>> story which I guarantee is 100% true...
>>
>>
>> I was rooting around at a metal recycling / selling place near
>> Oakland airport and came across a BIG box with spools
>> of aviation grade wire. They wanted $1/pound so I started
>> pulling out all the spools of Teflon & Tefzel wire that looked useful.
>>
>> In the same box were a bunch of components in ESD bags.
>> Those are the silver & pink bags that shield sensitive components
>> from "ElectroStatic Discharge" damage. I opened a few to see
>> what was inside (these were $1/pound too ;-)
>
>
>
>
>>
>> They apparently used the same "bagging & marking" system to ship ALL
>> the goods provided for the NASA contract. Some ESD bags contained
>> a 17 page shipping list, and if you looked carefully - you would
>> eventually find
>> that line 10 on page 14 listed "Washers, Flat, 8/32 - Qty 2" -
>> and sure enough, there would be two little flat washers in the bag,
>> or tucked
>> into the folds of the 17 page shipping list. I could only imagine
>> the paperwork
>> that would be required to replace one of the washers if it got lost
>> in the
>> folds of paper or bags.
>>
>> Other items which were dutifully protected by double ESD bags and ample
>> paperwork included resistors, screws, mounting brackets, etc..
>>
>> This appalled me on one level, and amused on other. As I opened the
>> various
>> ESD pouches it was a little like Christmas - each was a surprise.
>> And just
>> like Christmas, the pile of discarded paperwork and ESD bags grew &
>> grew!
>> In the end, I bought lots of wire (enough for several airplanes), and
>> saved a
>> few of the circuit boards as souvenier trinkets showing (the
>> miniscule changes)
>> from Version 00 to Version 17. But the cheapskate in me couldn't see
>> paying
>> a $1 per pound for all that paperwork, so I left that behind!
>
>
> The reason for what appears to be organized insanity is
> relatively simple. I'll suggest that a view from inside-looking-
> out is illuminating.
>
> Most of my tenure at Raytheon (Beech) was in the Missiles
> Business Unit. We were as close to a skunk works as could be found
> in Wichita aviation. We did our own aero, structures and
> systems designs. We did our own software, laid out our own
> boards, prototyped and flew our own products after a rigorous
> pass over a hardware-in-the-loop simulation (for software)
> teamed with 100% shake-n-bake screening (for hardware). We
> were a small group . . . about 100 folks at our peak. My division
> vice president was 25 steps from my desk. The folks bucking rivets
> were immediately under my desk on the floor below. Everyone
> enjoyed their work as far as I could tell. It was demonstrated
> by the attitudes displayed in our team meetings. No matter how
> bad things might be going in some segment of the project,
> one always walked out of a meeting encouraged by the support
> and offers for help from others on the team. We all had the
> same goal. Deliver a working product to a satisfied customer
> and have fun doing it.
>
> One product we crafted was the AQM-37 super-sonic target.
> Launched at 1.5M and 50,000 feet, it would climb to 125,000
> feet, accelerate to 4.0M and dive on ships a sea. It cost about
> $100,000 and always went into the ocean.
>
> But it was JUST a target. It would be used one time
> only. How much effort should be expended on reliability?
> The short answer is LOTS. To utilize our $100,000 expendable
> took months of planning and organization by others to get
> all the aircraft, ships, men, weapons and test support systems
> in place. I imagine that when our little player entered the
> scene from stage right, several $millions$ had already
> been spent to set the stage.
>
> For 1100 or so launches, I think our AQM pooped its pants
> two or three times. All in all, we felt pretty good about
> a 99.7 or 99.8 percent reliability number. Our competition
> was not nearly so good. Nonetheless, there were times that
> we had to gather up our shovels and buckets and exit the
> sandbox in disappointment. It may well be that the 6 o'clock
> news opened with some breathless journotwit telling the
> locals how some cowtown aerospace company just screwed the
> taxpayers out of a few $millions$.
>
> Static bags? Yeah we used those. But not for washers.
> Pieces of paper in every bag? Only on some complex items.
> How did we avoid carrying those practices to the
> ultimate extreme? Two conditions: (1) smart people and
> (2) very little "standing in line at windows". More
> on this later.
>
> Now, let's multiply Beech Missiles by 100 or 200 fold.
> Transplant from Cowpattyville, KS and spread out over
> places like L.A., Orlando, Trenton, and Seattle. Add to
> this mix the fact that our mission cost is 20 to 100
> $millions$ per shot. Stir in EPA, OSHA, Union, ISO,
> etc. work rules along with administrators of those rules
> who have it in their power to bring some segment (and
> essentially all) of your program to a halt.
>
> Finally, add the fact that there are watchdogs throughout
> the system who are intent not so much on getting the job
> done right but on insuring traceability and assessing
> proper assignment of blame should things NOT go right.
> One might properly conclude, "Well, just staff your operation
> with smart people and most of your problems go away."
>
> True. But in the NASA venue, one is not allowed to be
> very selective about who touches what and under what
> circumstances. Further, a 99.8% reliability number
> is far short of satisfactory. So what's a poor NASA
> program manager to do? The personnel are handed to you
> by HR. The materials are handed you my supply
> chain. The work rules are handed to you by folks
> who could not care less that your product is
> successful or even good value. . . you "do it by the
> rules or else." Hence, every aspect of the program
> is carved into almost unchangeable stone before the
> first lathe tool touches a piece of aluminum.
>
> Hence, the "safest" thing to do is double-bag everything
> including the lock washers. Document the pedigree of
> every rivet all the way back to the bauxite mine. You're
> driven to stack every precaution one can imagine
> on top of every effort - not because it makes
> probability of success greater but because it allows
> you to show that it wasn't your fault when the product
> poops its pants.
>
> There's an interesting little interview with a modern
> day Charles Kettering on my website. The man's name
> is Dr. Virgil Elings. You can get the audio track at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nudtw
>
> This gentleman has demonstrated that the most efficient
> pathway to success is an exploitation of time, talent
> and resources of "smart people" who are not encumbered
> by what I call, "impediments to progress" and he calls,
> "standing in line at windows". I've worked with some
> very capable associates and managers but my professional
> wet-dream would be to have enjoyed an association with
> the likes of Dr. Elings.
>
> Bottom line is that there are really clear (if not sane)
> reasons for $600 hammers, $400 toilet seats and double static
> bagged washers. Reasons that breathless infotwits
> will never understand and the majority of their audiences
> wont either. Our leadership's (I use the word
> with reservedly) insatiable quest to codify every
> aspect of the citizen's existence has become our
> own worst nighmare of no-value-added overhead. Overhead
> intended only to absolve most of us of responsibility,
> relieve us from any self judgement as to the honorability
> of our behavior and insulate us from blame. Plotting present
> trends out to the future does not offer an encouraging
> picture.
>
> I'm ALWAYS away from my desk when the ISO audit folks
> are scheduled to come though the department. It's
> insurance against embarrassing my company should I
> succumb to the urge for letting those folks know what
> I think of their presence in my workplace.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Speer <m.speer(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | ACS Ignition switch install |
I'm using the ACS keyed ignition switch in my electrical installation
... ya I know, but made the decision a long time ago before I knew any
better ... anyway now that I'm wiring this switch I don't understand the
results I'm seeing. I have voltage to the BAT position of the switch
once the master is on, no voltage to R, L, or Both positions and voltage
to the starter relay when the start position is selected with the key,
is this all normal? Also is it necessary to ground the shielded magneto
wires at the ignition switch or only at the magneto, I have read where
both are suggested...
Many thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
>
>Very well said. However, you might be preaching to the choir here :).
>
>As most of my working life has been for, and in, gov't., I can relate 100%
>and do attest that everything you say is true.
>
>If you try to fix it, regardless of your personal grade (rank), you are
>called Don Quixote and subsequently ignored.
>
>David M.
I have absolutely no illusions about fixing anything.
My personal heros are those who figured out work-arounds
for accomplishing personal goals and let those mired
in their own tar pits extract themselves to join you
or live with the alternatives. It isn't JUST government.
However, government is the obvious role model for many in industry.
I'm watching a small company I used to work for being
strangled by managers suffering from what appears to be
ignorance of what it takes to bring new products into
existence. To them, the creative minds in their engineering
departments are plug-n-play commodities that one acquires
by publishing the right ads and filtering applicants through
the HR selection process.
Actually, much of my experience with government (Pt. Mugu Missiles
guys) was really quite pleasant. They were sharp, knowledgable folk
who knew their jobs, understood my job and were never an impediment
to progress. The FAA is an entirely different matter and I'm sure
NASA (for understandable reasons) is far worse yet.
That's why it takes the likes of Burt Rutan and crew to go do
the spectacular thing first on 1/10th the budge and staff with
a high probability of success right out of the box! He, and the
people who work with him set their own standards for getting it
done right as professional goals. They don't need the work rules
either for guidance or excuses.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
As usual, Bob was/is right. There is virtually NO metric in electricity,
and very little in US made aircraft. Your wire gauge is what??
Something like AWG? Your metric volts and amps and ohms are what? So it
is kinda pointless to argue further, at least on this list.
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in general,
impossible and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Lucky for me, I don't need to have a prescription to know that there IS
>one. I also know that any prescription I have will be both correct and
>voted down. It's that Cassandra-thing, and the reason I stay off committees.
>
>I realize that some upset will occur. I also know some people in the US
>are working on the issue--and good luck to them. The European experience
>of single currency, single laws, no passports gives me hope that miracles
>happen.
>
>I was frankly baffled when the ISO Quality stuff and the NAFTA stuff
>didn't have a metric provision. That would have been an easy way to go metric.
Really? You say you don't need to have a prescription but
suggest that the ISO or NAFTA decrees would be "an easy
way to go metric". So your suggestion is to mandate by
regulation. Who are the guardians of the rules? Who
are the enforcers? Who will be the judges and how is
punishment for transgression to be handed out?
>When I converted the last place I worked to metric, I finally did it by a
>short simple decree, written by me but signed by the big cheese. This
>seemed the only practical way forward. I distributed NBS metrication
>literature kits and Bossard catalogs and alerted our fastener vendors and
>machining vendors. But what we did was worldwide scientific and medical
>devices so this was pretty straighforward. Some of it was a godsend, since
>we had spent too much time converting units--some units had gone from Inch
>to Metric to Inch to Metric several times. We encouraged thinking in
>metric and it became a little game. We discouraged doing conversions and
>banned double-dimensioning in most cases. NEW projects were metric; legacy
>designs were left as-is until major redesign was due.
If the task was to convert a single business where
the customer base didn't care how you measured things,
yes . . . it would be very easy.
>I frankly don't know how other companies would handle the conversion.
>Aircraft industries might be more difficult than others, but perhaps not.
Not perhaps . . . it IS so. In spite of the fact that one faction
of government may embrace and even decree the language by which its
subjects measure things, there are other factions that will make it
exceedingly laborious (read $expensive$). And that still leaves
us with a legacy fleet of aircraft with some models pushing
50 years old. ISO was decreed the way to go and made defacto
law by European companies that vowed to buy no more of our products
again until we did the ISO-thing. Here we are about 10-12 years
later. We proudly inscribe our sales literature with the Good
ISO-keeping Seal of Approval but do our airplanes fly better, cost
less to own and operate or last longer? Not such as I can see. In
fact, the prices continue to go up for reasons unrelated to the
creative or customer service efforts. A component of those increases
included achievement and maintenance of the ISO blessings. There
might be some value in the ISO-label. If some folk are inclined
to buy a $100 pair of sneakers 'cause some ball player says
they're good, there are probably folks who would feel better
about buying our airplanes because the ISO stickers are found
on them somewhere.
ISO is an example of how market pressures brought about an
almost world-wide change in manufacturing group-think.
Punishment was a reduction in marketability of one's product
not because it suddenly fails to meet demands of the user
but because the PROCESS by which it was produced didn't meet
the demands of an organization. How's that for back-door
totalitarianism shrouded in "quality assurance" terms?
Had the ISO package included a go-metric provision
I suppose US aviation and most other industries would have
toed the line. After all, their competitors were having
to do it too so at least all boats were burdened with the
same ballast. But for all the new and expense layers
of bureaucracy generated, the service value of our products
would not have changed one bit.
I wonder if Dr. Eling's microscopes bore the Good
ISO-keeping Seal of Approval. I'd almost bet they didn't
because it wasn't necessary. His goal was to be the best
there was at doing his thing and if you wanted the best,
here it is . . . and ISO blessings, metric or otherwise
wouldn't have made it any better.
So if there are no universal recipes for success and no
prescriptions that a free society would tolerate, then perhaps
all the cabbage tossing is about as useful as railing about the
cancer, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Certainly accusing
a non-compliant of being un-washed and suffering from ignorance
or fear is shallow, disingenuous and patently incorrect.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Kelly and all,
> There is virtually NO metric in electricity,
I beg to differ.
The system you call "metric" is in fact named "Systeme International" or SI.
Volts, amperes, ohms are part of SI.
The SI comprises of 7 fundamental units : meter, kilogram, second,
ampere, kelvin, mole, candela. The others (volt, ohm, siemens, farad...)
are derived units.
As far as I know, electricity happens to be one branch of physics where
everyone in the world uses the same units ;-)
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ACS Ignition switch install |
I'm using the ACS keyed ignition switch in my electrical installation ...
ya I know, but made the decision a long time ago before I knew any better
... anyway now that I'm wiring this switch I don't understand the results
I'm seeing. I have voltage to the BAT position of the switch once the
master is on, no voltage to R, L, or Both positions and voltage to the
starter relay when the start position is selected with the key, is this all
normal? Also is it necessary to ground the shielded magneto wires at the
ignition switch or only at the magneto, I have read where both are suggested
Magnetos don't get voltage from the battery in
ANY switch position. You're confusing the function
of the ACS keyswitch with having similarities
to your car's ignition switch. The only thing they
have in common is the need for a key to operate it
and the fact that it controls the starter.
See figure Z-27 in
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
for an explanation of switching functions for the
ACS switch.
The shield is best grounded at the engine end only
and the shield used to PROVIDE a ground at the switch
end as shown in Figure Z-27. This is the configuration
that produces the least risk for ignition noise from
the p-leads and least risk of alternator noise being
coupled to wiring behind the panel by the ground loop
fabricated when p-lead shields are grounded at both
ends.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi all,
Updated and corrected the drill bit chart
http://contrails.free.fr/article_drill_size_en.php
Whereas I meant it mainly for European homebuilders, I'm pleased to see
that American visitors are by far the most numerous.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Reeves <mattreeves(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | RG6 coax vx. RG400 coax |
I built a whole lancair with RG6 cable cause the guy at Radio Shack said it was
better than RG58U - then, when it came time to install a Garmin 430, I noticed
the RG6 is 75ohm cable and it calls for 50ohm cable.
I fiberglassed the comm antenna into the tail of the aircraft. I could just
add another antenna in the baggage area and run RG400 cable but am wondering if
there is really a whole lot of difference and if it's worth the weight.
I'm hoping for some opinions. I also used RG6 on a Nav antenna in the roof of
the airplane all glassed in. Maybe the RG6 is okay on a receive signal rather
than a send?
Hoping some of you guys smarter than me can respond.
Thanks.
Matt
---------------------------------
Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr - MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Associate - Click
now to apply
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
Remember too, that since the gov't wages are so low, essentially the
personnel are also the lowest bidder. People who try to make things
work for the country are quickly shut down.
One thing I did accomplish while there was to save us nearly $18 M over
the course of 5 years, simply by adopting new technology. I worked in
an Army R&D group for many years. Let me tell you some of the worlds
brightest were there, BUT the constraints they had to work with choke
all creativity. At first I was a contractor so I did it anyway. Then,
when I was hired direct, I could literally feel the walls of the cages
coming down. Back in the late 80's, for example, to buy 1 or 100
desktop pc's required nearly $12,000 in overhead on the gov't side.
Also, the place was extremely top heavy in order to keep up with
congressional and pentagon bullshit paperwork overhead. I lovd the
challenges, though.
David M.
just call me Mr. Quixote
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Very well said. However, you might be preaching to the choir here :).
>>
>> As most of my working life has been for, and in, gov't., I can relate
>> 100% and do attest that everything you say is true.
>>
>> If you try to fix it, regardless of your personal grade (rank), you
>> are called Don Quixote and subsequently ignored.
>>
>> David M.
>
>
> I have absolutely no illusions about fixing anything.
> My personal heros are those who figured out work-arounds
> for accomplishing personal goals and let those mired
> in their own tar pits extract themselves to join you
> or live with the alternatives. It isn't JUST government.
> However, government is the obvious role model for many in industry.
>
> I'm watching a small company I used to work for being
> strangled by managers suffering from what appears to be
> ignorance of what it takes to bring new products into
> existence. To them, the creative minds in their engineering
> departments are plug-n-play commodities that one acquires
> by publishing the right ads and filtering applicants through
> the HR selection process.
>
> Actually, much of my experience with government (Pt. Mugu Missiles
> guys) was really quite pleasant. They were sharp, knowledgable folk
> who knew their jobs, understood my job and were never an impediment
> to progress. The FAA is an entirely different matter and I'm sure
> NASA (for understandable reasons) is far worse yet.
>
> That's why it takes the likes of Burt Rutan and crew to go do
> the spectacular thing first on 1/10th the budge and staff with
> a high probability of success right out of the box! He, and the
> people who work with him set their own standards for getting it
> done right as professional goals. They don't need the work rules
> either for guidance or excuses.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RG6 coax vx. RG400 coax |
| From: | "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz> |
you can probably still use the installation by trimming the com cable to a tuned
length, and connecting to the 430 at this point.
to find the correct length requires use of a reflectometer - also known as VSWR
meter - such as Bird model 43 or equivalent, or a modern ramp test set. A radio
ham or VHF tech may be more experienced at doing this.
start with about 36" more cable than you need, temporarily connecting the end to
the output terminal on the reflectometer (an adaptor and rewirable F connector
for the RG6 cable would simplify this).
the input of the reflectometer is connected to the com Tx and the Tx is keyed on
highest, mid, lowest frequencies of the band. The reflected power readings need
to be noted (ratio of forward to reflected power if the forward power is not
always same). then cut off around 3" cable and repeat. At some point you will
find the reflected power to have reached its lowest reading on the low frequency,
and cutting off more cable will bring the minimum reflected power to occur
around the mid frequency. When this happens put the connector on the cable
and record all 3 readings. I think VSWR spec for a com antenna is for 3:1 which
equates to 25% reflected power.
If the cable is too short make up the balance with 50 ohm to the com Tx.
an alternate method would be to cut the RG6 at 32" from the antenna (roughly a
half wavelength for foam type cable) and fit a BNC connector and run new RG58
back to the com Tx.
I would not be concerned for the nav cable, so long as its not required to be certified.
it is likely that both cables will meet the spec, just as they are.
Some com antennas have a 12 ohm resistor in the base to give a better match, and
you loose a third of your signal this way. similarly, a long run of lossy cable
helps. The most important issue is not damaging the transmitter and immunity
from overload in receivers, the actual coverage range when airborne is seldom
affected.
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75720#75720
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bobby Hester" <bobbyhester(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: [OhioValleyRVators] Re: 1st time engine start |
-- key switch setup with
--- In OhioValleyRVators(at)yahoogroups.com, Bobby Hester
<bobbyhester@...> wrote:
Below is what I used to wire my key switch to work with my ignition
setup. I have one mag LH and one Lightspeed Ignition RH. Today I checked
my mag to insure it was grounding properly. What I found out and you'll
read about below is this. If you check the mag lead wire while it is
disconnected from the mag you will see that when the key is off and when
it is turned to right, the lead is grounded. But the kicker here is that
when you connect the lead to the mag and then check the stud on the mag
this is what you will find. Key off mag is grounded, key turned to right
mag is grounded, key turned to left the mag is still grounded. You wound
think that it should not be, so that will make you think that it is not
going to work, but do an engine run up and then a mag check and you will
find that everthing works like it should. As far as timing the mag and
timing the LSI I just followed the directions for each one.
Message: #127548
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Jul 05, 2006
Subject: Lightspeed with Keyswitch and 1 Mag Wiring
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=162052513?KEYS=lightspeed_with_keyswitch?LISTNAME=RV?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=1926137529?SHOWBUTTONS=NO>
This is a repost of previous info. I had a builder ask me about it
and I couldn't find it in the archives well, so I thought I'd resend
it with a good subject line. ----- Wiring a Keyswitch Ignition -
Lightspeed Plasma III/II+ ignition and a Mag Another non-RV10
builder, Dave Sundberg passed this on to me previously, and I wired
mine this way and it indeed works fine. It does seem a bit like
black magic, but seeing as it works fine I won't be complaining.
Test it out before and after you run the engine, but it should work
fine. The configuration is a Mag on the Left side, feeding the lower
plugs, and a Lightspeed Plasma III (or II+) feeding the top plugs as
the Right system. Note that allthough Lightspeed calls it a
keyswitch "Option", it's always on the system, just optional to
connect. * The P-Lead from the Mag goes to the L-Terminal on the
Switch with the shield connected to the GRN terminal on the mag and
not connected to anything on the switch end. * The P-Lead from the
LS (Pin 1) goes to the R-Terminal on the switch and the shield (Pin
9) goes to the GRN-Terminal in the center of the switch. * Do not
connect the jumper from the R-Term to the GRN-Terminal next to it. *
Do not connect the center GRN-Terminal on the switch to aircraft
ground. Both ignitions are grounded out with the switch in the OFF
position. Dave had been flying and it was working for him. I am
flying too and it's working great for me. I had previously spent
time hooking mine up and ohming things out and was confused as heck.
I also was confused in that the P-Lead on the mag is seemingly
shorted to ground even with the wire disconnected, so I couldn't
easily tell that it would be grounded by the switch. (Turns out this
is normal) If you hook it all up, except for the mag P-Lead, you can
indeed see that they ground the way their supposed to by using your
ohmmeter. I also have this posted on my Electrical Tips section on
my site. Tim -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
------
Surfing the web from my laptop in Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my RV7A site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
Tom Webster wrote:
> Bobby,
> I checked your website and see you got
> your engine timed and running.
> Great news, I know it was a big deal for me.
>
> I didn't want to bother you a few days ago
> when you were having timing problems, but when
> you find the time I would like to know more
> about your ignition setup.
> I couldn't find any details on your website.
>
> I have two mags, but am considering installing
> one electronic ignition in the future. My engine
> has too much power now, but feel variable timing
> might buy some fuel economy.
> I am also following Nordo's ignition problems.
>
> I feel others might also like to know about
> your ignition setup, so have kept this on our
> Yahoo list.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Webster
>
> --- In OhioValleyRVators(at)yahoogroups.com
> , Bobby Hester
> wrote:
> >
> > Even for the first engine start? I am planning on starting the
> engine
> > and running it for about 5 min. to insure no leaks and that
> everything
> > works.
> >
> > ------
> > Surfing the web from my laptop in Hopkinsville, KY
> > Visit my RV7A site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
> <http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/>
> >
> >
> >
> > Al Grajek wrote:
> >
> > > -Get a copy of Lycomings "key reprints". Its free on the website.
> It
> > > explains all the ground run, and break in procedures very well.
> make
> > > sure you DON'T run it on the ground with the cowling off.
> > > Nordo
> > >
> > > -- In OhioValleyRVators(at)yahoogroups.com
>
> > > , Bobby Hester
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm hoping to start my XP O-360 engine for the first time
> Wedensday.
> > > I
> > > > remember some discussion a while back about ground runs. This
> is a
> > > new
> > > > engine and I know that when I fly it I should fly it fast til
> the
> > > rings
> > > > seat and oil consumption stabilizes. I think someone said that
> during
> > > > the inital ground runs that you should keep the cylinder temps
> below
> > > a
> > > > certain temp untill it flys. So what is that temp?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ------
> > > > Surfing the web from my laptop in Hopkinsville, KY
> > > > Visit my RV7A site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-
> <http://www.geocities.com/hester->
> hoptown/RVSite/
> > > <http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
> <http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/>>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- End forwarded message ---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Magneto system checks with ohmmeter |
>
>
>--- In OhioValleyRVators(at)yahoogroups.com, Bobby Hester
><bobbyhester@...> wrote:
>
>Below is what I used to wire my key switch to work with my ignition
>setup. I have one mag LH and one Lightspeed Ignition RH. Today I checked
>my mag to insure it was grounding properly. What I found out and you'll
>read about below is this. If you check the mag lead wire while it is
>disconnected from the mag you will see that when the key is off and when
>it is turned to right, the lead is grounded. But the kicker here is that
>when you connect the lead to the mag and then check the stud on the mag
>this is what you will find. Key off mag is grounded, key turned to right
>mag is grounded, key turned to left the mag is still grounded. You wound
>think that it should not be, so that will make you think that it is not
>going to work, but do an engine run up and then a mag check and you will
>find that everthing works like it should. As far as timing the mag and
>timing the LSI I just followed the directions for each one.
An ordinary ohmmeter will not generally show whether
a mag switch is closed or not while still connected to
the mag. The mag switch is connected in parallel with
the magneto's primary winding which is also in parallel
with the points. With the points closed, the p-lead is
definitely grounded. With the points open the DC resistance
of the primary winding is so low that most ohmmeters
won't reliably indicate it.
This is why the magneto "timing box" is an ac current
generating device that readily detects the point opening
during a timing operation were a dc ohmmeter is not useful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Feldtman <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RG6 coax vx. RG400 coax |
Before you tear it up - get a ham to show you how to check "SWR" I bet
it will be less than 2:1 - I bet it will work okay, just not "perfectly"
So what if your comm output is 4 watts instead of 5 watts..
The problem is the dipole is 50 ohms so the mismatch is there, but
really not all that bad.
try it before you tear it up.
Bobf
W%RF - amateur
Matt Reeves wrote:
> I built a whole lancair with RG6 cable cause the guy at Radio Shack said
> it was better than RG58U - then, when it came time to install a Garmin
> 430, I noticed the RG6 is 75ohm cable and it calls for 50ohm cable.
>
> I fiberglassed the comm antenna into the tail of the aircraft. I could
> just add another antenna in the baggage area and run RG400 cable but am
> wondering if there is really a whole lot of difference and if it's worth
> the weight.
>
> I'm hoping for some opinions. I also used RG6 on a Nav antenna in the
> roof of the airplane all glassed in. Maybe the RG6 is okay on a receive
> signal rather than a send?
>
> Hoping some of you guys smarter than me can respond.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Matt
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Cox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 11/15/06 |
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Temperature units puzzle
> From: "Barlow, Jim D" <jim.d.barlow(at)intel.com>
>
>
> This article explains the lack of conversion.
>
> http://capitalastronomers.org/ReganMeasurements.html
But what explains the lack of spelling ability of the website's creator?
The late former president's name is spelled REAGAN.
There's just something poetic about someone who's trying to make another out
to look like a moron, instead doing it for him/herself...
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
Please tell us Carlos:
Would the rest of the world be happier if we just caved in to radical Islam
and all wore burkas. Which Islam would that be, Shiite....we'd get suicide
bombed by the radical Kurds, Sunni....we'd get suicide bombed by the radical
Shiite's. Which would you prefer? Or would you like us to invite them all
in to the USA and treat them like second class citizens so that they could
work to pay for our retirement and our 6 week holiday on the Riviera like
the French, British and Germans have done? This is not a personal attack on
you Carlos, but I do get sick and tired of the gutless Europeans who want to
appease every tin-pot dictator just so their Holidays to the Riviera are not
interrupted and their lives aren't inconvenienced! Especially when the USA
pays for most of the charity around the world, protects a good bit of the
world with it's own military at a GREAT EXPENSE to its taxpayers, covers
over half of the UN budget only to have most of the members vote against it
and have mud thrown in its face when terrorist countries like Syria and Iran
get voted in as members of the human rights commission, what a joke.
What worries me the most though Carlos (and Gilles) is the potential for all
those Islamic second class citizens in the French ghettos to take over the
French government and its cold war era NUCLEAR WEAPONS and use them on the
USA. Given the French affinity for appeasement it will likely be without
firing a shot. From what I have heard there will be lots of French folks
happy about that, they shouldn't get too happy though because the USA would
have to retaliate and given our Yankee tendencies it's doubtful there'd be
much left of Napolean's old stomping grounds. Sorry to pick on your country
Gilles but your fellow Frenchmen just haven't given me any reason whatsoever
to think that they have any sense of justice left in their heads.
Please, you folks are a lot closer to radical Islam than we in the USA are,
you've experienced the bombing, rioting and other acts of terrorism first
hand and some even more so than we in the USA. How can you possibly come to
the conclusion that, if you just TALK to these people and be nice to them
they will stop. HOW CAN ANY REASONBABLE THINKING PERSON POSSIBLY BELIEVE
THAT APPEASMENT IS THE ANSWER? HOW? Explain it to me, I'm all ears! The
main stream US news media and leftist press around the world have everyone
believing that "cowboy" Bush just woke up one day and decided to attack
Iraq. I beg to differ, Bill Clinton went ALL OVER THE WORLD for 8 years as
president, made "nice" with everyone, sang Kumbaiya and partied with them
and what did the USA get? September 11, 2001 that's what we got! So don't
go giving me this garbage about appeasement works, we tried that and now
North Korea and Iran will have Nuclear weapons. And, give them to the rest
of the terrorists around the world and, a bunch more "civilized people" will
have to die before the Europeans decide that they can give up a week or two
on the Riviera and be inconvenienced for a short time in order to stop these
kooks.
Please gentleman, I'm just waiting with baited breath to hear the great
solution you have to this problem, I'm waiting! I make no apologies for my
statements, I have a real passion about this and the truth is, if more
people don't wake up there won't be any more holidays on the Riviera or
worries about life being inconvenienced because you can't be inconvenienced
when you're DEAD (or persecuted under radical Islam, or did we already
forget what Saddam did to his own people not so long ago). Personally, it's
fine with me if the rest of the world does not want to be bothered by
terrorists killing people in their own countries, unfortunately it spills
over into my country and I'm not going to live with that if I can possibly
stop it! Lock and load!
Dean "Yankee" Psiropoulos
___________________________Original Message_________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Units puzzle
...... the text you wrote is an excellent example of expression of a typical
"Yankee-Uncle Sam" position which makes the USA to be hated by the rest of
the world.
Carlos
_______________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Why? [Please Read] |
Dear Listers,
Each year I like to explain why I have a Fund Raiser and also take the opportunity
to express why I think the List Services here provide a superior experience
over the commercial equivalents.
I use the List Fund Raiser each year to offset the costs involved with running
a high performance email list site such as this one. With the annual support
from the List members through the PBS-like Fund Raiser, I have found I can run
the entire site without having to inflect any of the members with those annoying
banner ads flashing up all the time trying to sell little-blue-pills or other
garbage nobody wants or needs. From the comments I've received over the years
regarding the Lists, the great majority of the members really appreciate
the non-commercialism of my List systems and don't mind my 'go-team-go' banter
once a year during November to encourage members to support the Lists.
I believe that the Lists services that I provide here offer many benefits over
the commercial equivalents in a number of ways. The first feature I believe to
be significant is that you cannot receive a computer v*rus from any of these
Lists directly. Each incoming message is filtered and dangerous attachments
stripped off prior to posting. I also provide a Photo and File Share feature
that allows members to share files and bitmaps with other members and everyone
can be assured that these files will be prescanned for any sort of v*rus before
they are posted. Safe and simple.
Another very important feature of this system in my opinion is the extensive List
Archives that are available for download, browsing, and searching. The Archives
go all the way back to the very beginning of each List and with the very
fast Search Engine, the huge size of some of the Archives is a non-issue in quickly
finding the data you're looking for.
And added just this year is the new Email List Forum that allows members who prefer
the Web BBS-style of List interaction. The beauty of the new List Forums
is that they contain the exact same content that is distributed via email. Messages
posted via email are cross-posted to the respective Forum and vice versa.
The Forums also allow for another convenient method of sharing pictures and
other files. Additionally added this year is the new List Wiki that allows
members to build their own "Online List Encyclopedia" of sorts, documenting various
aspects of their project for all to share.
I've been running email Lists and services under the matronics.com domain since
about 1989 starting with RV-List and 30 guys I knew and who where also building
RVs. It has grown into nearly 70 different aviation-related Email Lists and
an associated web site that receives over 23,000,000 hits each year!! Additionally,
the List Email system forwarded well over 87,000 postings last year,
accounting for an unbelievable 39,000,000 (yes, that's 39 MILLION) email messages
delivered to Matronics List subscribers! I think there's a lot of value in
supporting a service that has gone the long haul and is still providing and
improving a high quality service all _without any advertising budget_!
I have to admit running these Lists is a labor of love and I hope it shows in the
quality of the experience that you receive when you get a List Email Message,
Search the Archives, use the List Browser, or surf the Forums and Wiki sites.
The Lists will be here for a long time to come. If you just want to lurk
a while for free, that's great and I encourage you to do so. If you use, appreciate,
and receive value from these Lists, then please support them during the
Annual List Fund Raiser!
List Contribution Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Let us not dilute the mission . . . |
>
>
>Please tell us Carlos:
>
>Would the rest of the world be happier if we just caved in to radical Islam
>and all wore burkas. Which Islam would that be, Shiite....we'd get suicide
>bombed by the radical Kurds, Sunni....we'd get suicide bombed by the radical
>Shiite's. Which would you prefer? Or would you like us to invite them all
>in to the USA and treat them like second class citizens so that they could
>work to pay for our retirement and our 6 week holiday on the Riviera like
>the French, British and Germans have done?
My friends,
I understand the frustration with folks who do not
understand, embrace or even fight for the principals
of liberty as enjoyed and protected by an honorable society.
It's a difficult concept to grasp by individuals
who are raised and live in an atmosphere of perpetual
victimhood.
There are plenty of blogsites where folks are encouraged
to offer their views of world conditions. Let's not let
this List loose its grip on the mission. I'll encourage
all participants to choose their words so that they
illuminate points of fact and logic in the assembly of
simple-ideas into useful systems.
The single biggest threat to the usefulness of our endeavor
is to pitch mud balls and cabbages at anyone for any reason.
It adds nothing to the mission and discourages folks
from attending to the discussions when they loose
interest or believe they're being attacked. The whole
notion that hatred is justified by anything other than
grossly dishonorable behavior is illogical but
this is not the venue for the discussion. Let's
strive to offer words that expand our knowledge and
understanding of physics and the art of crafting the
best airplanes. But without demeaning others with
pejoratives and imagined or real shortcomings in
personality.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <frank.phyllis(at)mindspring.com> |
Not sure I've properly installed the Ground Power Jack per the diagram
from Bob. I'm wondering if I have the circuit breaker switch properly
connected--which terminal goes to the ground ("Line" or "Load") & which
goes to the contactor?
When I connect power to the plug the test light comes on, regardless of
which position the circuit breaker switch is in. Is this what's
supposed to happen? I am thinking that I should be able to test the
ground pwr contactor to see if it's closed by testing the voltage across
the terminals but I don't get the voltage I expect (~ 12 v?). I'm using
a Schumacher Model WM-1562A "Fully Automatic Battery Charger/Maintainer"
(1.5 amp slow charge)when I test the system.
Frank McD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Grnd Pwr Jack |
>
>Not sure I've properly installed the Ground Power Jack per the diagram
>from Bob. I'm wondering if I have the circuit breaker switch properly
>connected--which terminal goes to the ground ("Line" or "Load") & which
>goes to the contactor?
>When I connect power to the plug the test light comes on, regardless of
>which position the circuit breaker switch is in. Is this what's
>supposed to happen? I am thinking that I should be able to test the
>ground pwr contactor to see if it's closed by testing the voltage across
>the terminals but I don't get the voltage I expect (~ 12 v?). I'm using
>a Schumacher Model WM-1562A "Fully Automatic Battery Charger/Maintainer"
>(1.5 amp slow charge)when I test the system.
There are several ground power wiring options in the
literature I've published. Since you speak of a light
then I presume you're referring to the drawing shown
in . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
The symptoms you describe suggest that the light
fixture is wired wrong. There are three terminals
on the back that must be wired as depicted or
you'll get unpredictable behavior which includes
the symptoms you've described.
I don't think the WM1562 charger is appropriate to
simulate a ground power source. This charger is of
limited output current . . . about 1 amp as I recall
and the ground power contactor needs about 0.7 of
the total. It MIGHT work but without trying it
or doing more detailed analysis of the charger's
expected behavior, I cannot predict.
When you connect a ground power source (try a battery
with a 10A fuse in the line), the indicator lamp should
be dark as long as the breaker-switch is open. Pressing
the fixture should produce a light showing that ground
power is applied and that the lamp is good. Closing
the breaker should also cause the contactor to close.
This will happen with a audible "thunk". The light
will come on also showing that ground power is now
applied to ship's wiring.
A reversed ground power source will cause the switch
breaker to open immediately after you try to close it.
Likewise, if you've installed the over voltage protection
option, applying 24v to a 12v airplane will also cause the
switch=breaker to open.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Volume & Transmit Issues |
Bob et al,
I just energized my simple VFR panel for the first time this weekend. I'm
happy 'cuz there is only one issue: Garmin GNC 250 XL seems to function
EXCEPT volume is intermittent & it will not transmit voice. A handheld
plugged into the antenna both receives & transmits fine. Also, when the PTT
button is pushed the 'TX' symbol comes on in the display & the click can be
heard in the headphones, yet the voice will not transmit.
Any suggestions on where I can begin troubleshooting this issue?
Thanks,
Grant
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RG6 coax vx. RG400 coax |
>
>Before you tear it up - get a ham to show you how to check "SWR" I bet
>it will be less than 2:1 - I bet it will work okay, just not "perfectly"
>So what if your comm output is 4 watts instead of 5 watts..
>
>The problem is the dipole is 50 ohms so the mismatch is there, but
>really not all that bad.
>
>try it before you tear it up.
>
>Bobf
>W%RF - amateur
Good suggestion Bob. I agree. While it's not the
best we know how to do, the consequences of having
the 'foreign' coax in place are probably not all
that bad.
Getting a good sweep of antenna SWR as-installed over
the full frequency range of interest would be a good thing
to do. If it stays below 3:1, it's probably not worth
the $time$ to rip out and/or work around the compromised
system.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
David M. wrote:
>
> Remember too, that since the gov't wages are so low, essentially the
> personnel are also the lowest bidder. People who try to make things
> work for the country are quickly shut down.
> One thing I did accomplish while there was to save us nearly $18 M
> over the course of 5 years, simply by adopting new technology. I
> worked in an Army R&D group for many years. Let me tell you some of
> the worlds brightest were there, BUT the constraints they had to work
> with choke all creativity. At first I was a contractor so I did it
> anyway. Then, when I was hired direct, I could literally feel the
> walls of the cages coming down. Back in the late 80's, for example,
> to buy 1 or 100 desktop pc's required nearly $12,000 in overhead on
> the gov't side. Also, the place was extremely top heavy in order to
> keep up with congressional and pentagon bullshit paperwork overhead.
> I lovd the challenges, though.
>
And just so people on the outside don't point fingers and assume that
those on the inside or even the Congresspeople are all idiots....assume
that the $12,000 was done away with, that a department could write a
purchase order for the local BestBuy and have one of the secretaries run
down and pick them up. Then the nationwide news show would replace the
stories of $600 hammers with stories of how the cousin, twice removed,
of department head's wife is the beneficiary of a government contract
for 12 PCs worth THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. At least with the overhead, the
politicians get to look like they're doing something about corrupt
purchasing procedures AND someone gets a job.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
>-->
>
>Saying big grown-up words like "economic impact" makes one LOOK like he
>actually knows something whereas--they are just boardroom mumbo-jumbos
>targeted to get knowing nods from the clueless stock-optioned MBAs who
>run our companies, but are totally BS (and that doesn't mean British
>Standard or Brown and Sharpe).
>
>
The 'economic impact' is that I would have to go out and find metric AN
hardware for my project, redrill all the holes, and physically swap all
the hardware out. At that point, I have to again find the metric stuff
whenever I do maintenance. I, like every other builder I know, would
prefer to just say, "You first." If I were running a company that built
water heaters, every one of them would go out the door with fitting that
matched what is commonly available at Lowe's and Home Depot; otherwise,
I'd quickly be out of business. May not be a national impact, but my
family wouldn't appreciate how much of a patriot I was trying to be. If
I were running a company that made lawn mowers, every bolt hole would be
tapped to match the hardware that was on the shelves of Ace Hardware.
Same logic. You call it micro-economics. I call it feeding my family.
Stop calling people clueless. It is not about metric vs the English
system (and it is a system, no matter how convoluted it is). The debate
is a about a new, more efficient infrastructure that was designed vs an
older, ingrained one that just grew out of nothing. Why wasn't the
legacy system well thought out and logical like the metric system?
Because we didn't even know we needed it until we already had it, and at
that point it becomes painful to switch. Europeans have had the dubious
'benefit' of having their industrial infrastructure devasted twice in
the past century, thanks to a couple world wars. At the point where
there is no Lowe's, Home Depot or Ace Hardware, because they ALL have to
be rebuilt...might as well go with the efficient system. We also see
Europe and the ex-Soviet block nations adopting advanced cellular
infrastructures much quicker than the US. But people forget that the
new 3G (third generation) systems there don't have to compete for
customers with the legacy 2G systems. It's much easier to build an
advanced system if you have a slightly less advanced system to build off
of. It's also much easier to implement it if you don't have the older
system to compete with.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: NASA and the ESD monkey... |
>
>
>And just so people on the outside don't point fingers and assume that
>those on the inside or even the Congresspeople are all idiots....assume
>that the $12,000 was done away with, that a department could write a
>purchase order for the local BestBuy and have one of the secretaries run
>down and pick them up. Then the nationwide news show would replace the
>stories of $600 hammers with stories of how the cousin, twice removed, of
>department head's wife is the beneficiary of a government contract for 12
>PCs worth THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. At least with the overhead, the
>politicians get to look like they're doing something about corrupt
>purchasing procedures AND someone gets a job.
Yup, unfortunately a group of folk in every society are burdened
with the notion that critical review means to "expose"
every real or imagined "bad" point that one may think of.
If one wishes to be an effective reviewer, it's insufficient
to simply toss in mud-balls . . .
I have a proposal floating around my workplace now to set
up a REAL IR&D facility with a modest budget but no windows
to stand in line at. ALL purchases will be made on one
credit card. At the end of the month, we get a single piece
of paper that lists where every dime was spent. No
secrets, no intent to defraud, but no impediments to
progress. When someone needs a tool or material item, he
or she does all their own procurement and turns in the
receipts and packing lists at the end of the month.
The successful venture depends on smart, honorable folks.
I prefer to assume they're honorable and to provide
the environment in which they can get smart. It's up
to each individual to prove themselves worthy of the
responsibility and trust. ISO (or government) approved
policies and procedures are incapable of offering a cost
effective filter for incompetence or dishonesty. It
will be my responsibility to see that funds are properly
spent.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 11/19/06 |
This metric "world vs the U.S." debate is entertaining. But I want to make
sure I've got it straight: Americans are stupid for messing up one of the
many space probes we sent to Mars because two different U.S. research and
space sub-agencies used different measuring systems (of the 15-20 or so
there are to choose from), causing that probe to crash. This in contrast to
the genius of others who've settled on a single system for all such
measurements in the many probes they've sent to Mars?
Just wondering...
Lee...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 23 Msgs - 11/19/06 |
Lee,
> This metric "world vs the U.S." debate is entertaining.
I would like to point out that my original question was "When or why did
the reversion from Celsius to Fahrenheit occur in aviation ?". The
debate was all between North American citizens.
There is no such thing as a "world vs the US" debate in Europe. We just
use units, period. We are trained to change units if need be.
Just remembering to convert into inches and pounds when talking to US
citizens. We consider it a matter of politeness.
> But I want to make sure I've got it straight: Americans are stupid
> for messing up one of the many space probes we sent to Mars because
> two different U.S. research and space sub-agencies used different
> measuring systems (of the 15-20 or so there are to choose from),
> causing that probe to crash.
It came as a shock to the aerospace and scientific community to discover
that the top brass and engineers in this project did not even give any
consideration to the problem of multiple unit systems.
Units and dimensional analysis have a paramount importance in science
and engineering.
That is...in the rest of the world ...;-)
Best regards,
Gilles, just joking ;-)
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Prue Motorgliders <pruemotorgliders(at)cox.net> |
Matt
I have several lists that I look at - the AeroElectric being my
primary. I contributed to that list but not others.
I am not sure how the support is supposed to work - support your work
or individual lists.
It is OK if the intention is to support every list individually -
please let me know.
Thanks for your very useful work
Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Campbell" <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... |
Bob wrote...
This gentleman has demonstrated that the most efficient
pathway to success is an exploitation of time, talent
and resources of "smart people" who are not encumbered
by what I call, "*impediments to progress*" and he calls,
"*standing in line at windows*". I've worked with some
very capable associates and managers but my professional
wet-dream would be to have enjoyed an association with
the likes of *Dr. Virgil Elings*. http://tinyurl.com/nudtw
Greg writes...
My professional dream would have been to work with *Kelly Johnson*
in his *Skunk Works*. I was born a few years too late for that to happen,
but I had an almost equally satisfying stint working with the
*Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency* (DARPA)!
http://www.*DARPA*.mil/body/overtheyears.html>
They had very few "*impediments to progress*" - and that's only one
of the many things that attracted me to the place.
*DARPA* is an unusually small Government agency that funds research.
They were formed back in 1958 (same year as NASA) and their research led to
the ARPAnet, Stealth technology, tele-surgery, body armor, and many other
things.
Some items are now classified, some aren't. In accordance with their
mission,
DARPA has had some costly dead ends, as well as some tremendous successes.
They do all this with a staff of government folks that has "swelled" to 240
people
since they were formed in 1958. One of my favorite DARPA examples is a
useful device
that went from "concept" to "deployed" in under a month during the first
Iraq war.
(Can't provide more details now, try again in about 40 years. ;-)
Some people argue that DARPA has reached the tipping point at 240 people,
and the "good years" are all behind them. I hope (& suspect) that isn't
true!
My background includes many years working for DARPA; first as a military
officer, then as a contractor. So when I was digging wire out of
dusty boxes
in Oakland and benefiting from the dietrus of the NASA and Loral contract -
it wasn't that I didn't understand what or why the Loral folks had to do
this.
Instead, it reminded me of my years at DARPA and deepened my appreciation
of the time I DIDN'T spend "*standing in line at windows*" and taking
unmarked ESD bags back to my desk to dig for two tiny washers
that were quite literally "lost in the paperwork".
So while I was both amused & appalled, I wasn't surprised at what NASA had
required or what Loral had to do to comply with their contract.
NASA has a very different mission than DARPA, and the NASA staff of more
than
19,000 has a longer & much more complicated chain of accountability
than DARPA's staff of 240.
This isn't meant as NASA bashing. Instead, consider it as encouragement and
a challenge for the competent folks to seek out rewarding opportunities
that still exist at places like: DARPA, Scaled Composites, and other
places.
These opportunities aren't gone with Kelly Johnson, they're just hard to
find.
A good friend of mine helped me build my *Lancair ES* and now he works at
*Scaled Composites*. (I know they have some DARPA contracts.) He can't
tell me what he's working on, but he can't hide the smile on his face
either!
The satisfying & rewarding jobs are out there - you just have to find them!
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Volume & Transmit Issues |
Assume you used a headset with the panel mount, but you didn't say whether
you used your headset with the handheld, but if not, the issue could be
there.
I recently had an experience where I did not have good communications with a
new headset I was trying out - turn out that the microphone under the foam
pad was facing away from my face rather than toward it. Flipped it over and
it worked fine.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 20 November, 2006 6:45
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Volume & Transmit Issues
>
>
> Bob et al,
>
> I just energized my simple VFR panel for the first time this weekend. I'm
> happy 'cuz there is only one issue: Garmin GNC 250 XL seems to function
> EXCEPT volume is intermittent & it will not transmit voice. A handheld
> plugged into the antenna both receives & transmits fine. Also, when the
> PTT button is pushed the 'TX' symbol comes on in the display & the click
> can be heard in the headphones, yet the voice will not transmit.
>
> Any suggestions on where I can begin troubleshooting this issue?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Grant
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
| From: | "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)fdic.gov> |
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang II kitplane,
using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his published
article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am using two
independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power sources for
each light. The system is wired per the instructions. Everything works
as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No. 6, below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights are on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch is on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes through the WigWag
flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second
intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light is on but no
flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle - FLASHER GOES
CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing light
flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher. The
flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per
second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs through the
middle connector of the flasher, because when I change connections from
the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches, then the buzzing
starts only when the other light switch is moved to the middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on when a single
switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the other
switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange behavior?
Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but since I
do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot figure
it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single switch in the
middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to know why this is
happening and whether there is any way to prevent it. I do not want to
inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this
vibration mode and leaving it there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Matt
>I have several lists that I look at - the AeroElectric being my
>primary. I contributed to that list but not others.
>I am not sure how the support is supposed to work - support your work or
>individual lists.
>
>It is OK if the intention is to support every list individually - please
>let me know.
>
>Thanks for your very useful work
>Jerry
When you donate based on participation in a "List"
community, the funds go into the big server pot in the sky
that helps keep ALL the lists running . . . no
matter how many Lists you subscribe to, one donation
covers them all.
Good question. Thanks for asking.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Some tips on using self-sticking Velcro |
In my various capacities as supplier to the OBAM aircraft
industry and skunk-werkser on the TC side of the house, I've
found many uses for the self-mounting, pre-stickied Velcro
products sold by Hobby Lobby, WalMart and others. On of my
favorites is a "Heavy Duty Adhesive, Industrial Strength"
product I've been buying at WalMart in the crafts department.
A 15 foot by 2" wide roll is about $8 as I recall. I've
never encountered a situation where holding power of the
Velcro was lacking but getting the adhesive to stick can
be iffy on some surfaces.
I've found that wiping the surface down with acetone (pure
acetone available in cosmetics as nail polish remover. 8 oz
for about $1.50). Then use your heat gun to warm the adhesive
to as hot as you can stand while holding the Velcro in your
fingers. Stroke it for a minute or so under the heat gun.
Press into place firmly and know that the bond is somewhat
time sensitive. It may take 24 hours to reach full bond
strength. Putting this stuff down with the technique described
has produced some amazing attachments . . . some have required
the heat gun to re-soften the adhesive so I could pull the
stuff up. I've used this technique to install remote mounted
instrumentation packages in the hell-hole on airplanes and
in the nose compartment with results that amazed folks I
was working with. One skeptical technician didn't think Velcro
would hold this 5 pound data acquisition signal conditioner
in place.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Data_Acquisition/Weeder_Module_DAS_1.jpg
I invited him to remove it after I'd installed it. He had
to go get a pry bar to open the Velcro interface and we
needed a heat gun to get the adhesive to let loose of the
airplane when we were done. He's convinced.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harold Kovac" <kayce33(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 11/15/06 |
Just like a CIC & 1/2 the congress who say NOO-Q-LAR....be nice if they'd
learn to speak English
I see many non native contributers to this list who spell far better than
many born US.
Harold
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Cox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:01 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 22 Msgs - 11/15/06
>
>> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Temperature units puzzle
>> From: "Barlow, Jim D" <jim.d.barlow(at)intel.com>
>>
>>
>> This article explains the lack of conversion.
>>
>> http://capitalastronomers.org/ReganMeasurements.html
>
> But what explains the lack of spelling ability of the website's creator?
>
>
> The late former president's name is spelled REAGAN.
>
> There's just something poetic about someone who's trying to make another
> out to look like a moron, instead doing it for him/herself...
>
> Ron
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Metric vs English oboy |
Alright, I have stayed out of this one....but....as an old used up Chemistry
teacher I would spend the first few weeks of every school year my best to
explain how....from my view point and the rest of the sciencde community why
the metric system of measurement IS Superior to the "english" system of
measurement. With that said what ever system is used use it and always
measure trice and cut once.
Flame suit RV list approved so let it rip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring / fiberglassing......plus RV7A
>From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 23 Msgs - 11/19/06
>Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:06:05 +0100
>
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Lee,
>>This metric "world vs the U.S." debate is entertaining.
>
>I would like to point out that my original question was "When or why did
>the reversion from Celsius to Fahrenheit occur in aviation ?". The debate
>was all between North American citizens.
>There is no such thing as a "world vs the US" debate in Europe. We just use
>units, period. We are trained to change units if need be.
>
>Just remembering to convert into inches and pounds when talking to US
>citizens. We consider it a matter of politeness.
>
>> But I want to make sure I've got it straight: Americans are stupid for
>>messing up one of the many space probes we sent to Mars because two
>>different U.S. research and space sub-agencies used different measuring
>>systems (of the 15-20 or so there are to choose from), causing that probe
>>to crash.
>
>It came as a shock to the aerospace and scientific community to discover
>that the top brass and engineers in this project did not even give any
>consideration to the problem of multiple unit systems.
>
>Units and dimensional analysis have a paramount importance in science and
>engineering.
>That is...in the rest of the world ...;-)
>
>Best regards,
>Gilles, just joking ;-)
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
At 01:24 PM 11/20/2006 Monday, you wrote:
>>
>>Matt
>>I have several lists that I look at - the AeroElectric being my primary. I contributed
to that list but not others.
>>I am not sure how the support is supposed to work - support your work or individual
lists.
>>
>>It is OK if the intention is to support every list individually - please let
me know.
>>
>>Thanks for your very useful work
>>Jerry
>
> When you donate based on participation in a "List"
> community, the funds go into the big server pot in the sky
> that helps keep ALL the lists running . . . no
> matter how many Lists you subscribe to, one donation
> covers them all.
>
> Good question. Thanks for asking.
>
> Bob . . .
Well said, Bob. Thanks!
Matt Dralle
List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Units puzzle! |
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>Please tell us Carlos:
>
>Would the rest of the world be happier if we just caved in to radical Islam
>and all wore burkas. Which Islam would that be, Shiite....we'd get suicide
>bombed by the radical Kurds, Sunni....we'd get suicide bombed by the radical
>Shiite's. Which would you prefer? Or would you like us to invite them all
>in to the USA and treat them like second class citizens so that they could
>work to pay for our retirement and our 6 week holiday on the Riviera like
>the French, British and Germans have done? This is not a personal attack on
>you Carlos, but I do get sick and tired of the gutless Europeans who want to
>appease every tin-pot dictator just so their Holidays to the Riviera are not
>interrupted and their lives aren't inconvenienced! Especially when the USA
>pays for most of the charity around the world, protects a good bit of the
>world with it's own military at a GREAT EXPENSE to its taxpayers, covers
>over half of the UN budget only to have most of the members vote against it
>and have mud thrown in its face when terrorist countries like Syria and Iran
>get voted in as members of the human rights commission, what a joke.
>
>What worries me the most though Carlos (and Gilles) is the potential for all
>those Islamic second class citizens in the French ghettos to take over the
>French government and its cold war era NUCLEAR WEAPONS and use them on the
>USA. Given the French affinity for appeasement it will likely be without
>firing a shot. From what I have heard there will be lots of French folks
>happy about that, they shouldn't get too happy though because the USA would
>have to retaliate and given our Yankee tendencies it's doubtful there'd be
>much left of Napolean's old stomping grounds. Sorry to pick on your country
>Gilles but your fellow Frenchmen just haven't given me any reason whatsoever
>to think that they have any sense of justice left in their heads.
>
>Please, you folks are a lot closer to radical Islam than we in the USA are,
>you've experienced the bombing, rioting and other acts of terrorism first
>hand and some even more so than we in the USA. How can you possibly come to
>the conclusion that, if you just TALK to these people and be nice to them
>they will stop. HOW CAN ANY REASONBABLE THINKING PERSON POSSIBLY BELIEVE
>THAT APPEASMENT IS THE ANSWER? HOW? Explain it to me, I'm all ears! The
>main stream US news media and leftist press around the world have everyone
>believing that "cowboy" Bush just woke up one day and decided to attack
>Iraq. I beg to differ, Bill Clinton went ALL OVER THE WORLD for 8 years as
>president, made "nice" with everyone, sang Kumbaiya and partied with them
>and what did the USA get? September 11, 2001 that's what we got! So don't
>go giving me this garbage about appeasement works, we tried that and now
>North Korea and Iran will have Nuclear weapons. And, give them to the rest
>of the terrorists around the world and, a bunch more "civilized people" will
>have to die before the Europeans decide that they can give up a week or two
>on the Riviera and be inconvenienced for a short time in order to stop these
>kooks.
>
>Please gentleman, I'm just waiting with baited breath to hear the great
>solution you have to this problem, I'm waiting! I make no apologies for my
>statements, I have a real passion about this and the truth is, if more
>people don't wake up there won't be any more holidays on the Riviera or
>worries about life being inconvenienced because you can't be inconvenienced
>when you're DEAD (or persecuted under radical Islam, or did we already
>forget what Saddam did to his own people not so long ago). Personally, it's
>fine with me if the rest of the world does not want to be bothered by
>terrorists killing people in their own countries, unfortunately it spills
>over into my country and I'm not going to live with that if I can possibly
>stop it! Lock and load!
>
>Dean "Yankee" Psiropoulos
>
Since under the new Military Commissions Act any response from a
non-citizen could get them treated here like Sadaam used to treat his
dissidents in Iraq, perhaps you will permit me, a born once (& again) US
citizen, to respond.
It's really interesting how different conclusions can be, depending on
your perspective when viewing a problem. How thrilled do you think
Americans would be if, say, the Germans decided to secure our border
with Mexico for us & moved a hundred thousand or so German troops into
our border states? We might think we are doing the world a favor by
protecting it with troops stationed in dozens of countries, but it
doesn't mean that the 'protected' citizens of those countries
necessarily feel the same way.
I'd suggest that you educate yourself with a little history. Start with
learning how the three groups in Iraq got artificially spliced into one
country. Then look at who gave the Evil Sadaam chemical weapons to start
with, when they were propping him up against the Iranians. Then back up
& look at who put the Shah of Iran (just in case you're totally ignorant
of history: he was a bad guy easily on par with Sadaam) in power in the
early 1950's. Ask yourself if that action might have something to do
with the Iranian people hating us enough to attack our Embassy & take
American hostages. Next, look up who was the leader of the 'insurgency'
(currently known everywhere else as terrorism) against the Soviets in
Afghanistan, his nationality (it ain't Afghan), & who gave him his
weapons & taught him all his terrorist techniques. Now, look up who is
*actually* responsible for 911. Has his name shown up before in this
exercise? Same guy, maybe? What was his nationality? He wasn't from
Iraq, was he? Now look up which Royal Family has been proven to be
funneling money to this the guy who is *actually* responsible for 911.
(You remember the one; the guy that Jr. said he didn't think about much,
any more.) Were they from the same country as our Afghan/Soviet/American
terrorist? You will probably have to move completely outside US news
sources to find the next item. What reason did the terrorist himself
give for planning & executing 911? Hint: It wasn't Bill Clinton singing
Kumbaiya. Don'tcha think it would be good to at least understand your
enemy? Lots of very smart military people do. Unfortunately, not many
chickenhawk neocons felt that way when they got us into the current mess.
Let's move to recent history. Have you noticed how many 'retired' CIA
operatives have written books detailing how they repeatedly told the
Neocons *before the invasion* that there was virtually no evidence of
WMD or chem/bio in Iraq? That there was virtually no evidence of any
contact at all between the hedonist Sadaam & the fundamentalist Muslim
terrorist that wouldn't even be able to tolerate being in the same
country with someone like Sadaam? (Watching something other than the
Fascist News Network will probably be required for this exercise.)
Remember, the CIA is like the Mafia on steroids: you never really leave.
Don'tcha think it's a pretty safe bet that what all these 'retired'
agents are writing are probably pretty close to the CIA's attitude about
this stuff? Have you noticed how many recently retired American Generals
have gone on record criticizing our Administration's actions in invading
another country based on lies? Do you really think that all those guys
are bleeding heart liberals?
For extra credit, go to the CIA's web site, look up & list the natural
resources of Vietnam.
I could go on (remember the 'missile gap', from the '60's?), but I hope
that by now you're able to detect a bit of a pattern.
Before we deal with some foreigner's plan for the terrorists, let's
deal with yours. Do you live far enough south to be familiar with fire
ants? Ever tried to intimidate a mound of 'em by reaching into the mound
with your hand & crushing a few to death? Did the rest cut & run or
become pacifists & submit because you were stronger? To paraphrase our
illustrious president on lessons learned in Vietnam, if you continue
with your technique, do you believe you will win over the fire ants
unless you quit? Do you honestly believe that your technique is
weakening the fire ants?
When you've completed your assignments, get back to me & we'll talk. :-)
Charlie
(just a little old southern boy who believes that conservative beats
neo-conservative any day)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
Bob;
Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1 flasher will
not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp. Hence the
requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag priority
operation" By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both in
the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher
does not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one
case, berserk in the other)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang II
kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his
published article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am using two
independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power sources for
each light. The system is wired per the instructions. Everything works
as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No. 6, below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights are on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch is on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes through the
WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second
intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light is on but
no flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle - FLASHER GOES
CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing light
flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher. The
flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per
second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs through
the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change connections
from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches, then the
buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on when a single
switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the other
switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange behavior?
Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but since I
do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot figure
it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single switch in the
middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to know why this is
happening and whether there is any way to prevent it. I do not want to
inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this
vibration mode and leaving it there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | D10-a check lists and POH |
I have an RV6-A 180 HP with C/S ready for first flight.
It is equipped with a Dynon D10-A EFIS. It has been updated with the latest
Dynon firmware edition.
There is a lot of check list etc. entries to be made and I wonder if there
are any people out there that would have copies that they have made that
could serave as a basis for editing to fit my RV.
I am not very computer literate and I'm guessing that what I think I want
can actually be done.
Jim in Kelowna
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Let us not dilute the mission. |
>
>
>DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Please tell us Carlos:
>>
>>Would the rest of the world be happier if we just caved in to radical Islam
>>and all wore burkas. Which Islam would that be, Shiite....we'd get suicide
>>bombed by the radical Kurds, Sunni....we'd get suicide bombed by the radical
>>Shiite's. Which would you prefer? Or would you like us to invite them all
>>in to the USA and treat them like second class citizens so that they could
>When you've completed your assignments, get back to me & we'll talk. :-)
>
>Charlie
>(just a little old southern boy who believes that conservative beats
>neo-conservative any day)
By all means, DO continue to talk if it suits your mutual
purposes . . . but not here on the AeroElectric-List.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Metric vs English |
>
>
>Alright, I have stayed out of this one....but....as an old used up
>Chemistry teacher I would spend the first few weeks of every school year
>my best to explain how....from my view point and the rest of the sciencde
>community why the metric system of measurement IS Superior to the
>"english" system of measurement. With that said what ever system is used
>use it and always measure trice and cut once.
>
>Flame suit RV list approved so let it rip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think anyone has argued against the simplicity,
elegance and obvious utility of the metric system. It's
a simple-idea that stands on its own merits.
The debate (if it can be called that) was a discussion
that purported to illuminate personality traits of
both individuals and societies because of their present
positions on the time-line in the evolution of ideas,
customs, politics and economics.
I'll suggest again that the issues raised are exceedingly
complex and essentially "insolvable" without imposing
external forces that go against a foundation on which
this nation was created. Namely, one is free to do as
one wishes as long as their actions do not infringe on
the liberty of others. Potentially chaotic? Yes, but
a chaos which individuals are free to participate in
or not as they choose.
Forces capable of establishing any form of ideology
for any purpose come in the from of laws. Laws by their
very nature must have givers, watchdogs, adjudicators
and a system of compensating for or correcting transgressions.
When this much power is afforded any collective of
individuals, it must be bounded by limits lest the
collective become fond of using law to impose their
least whim upon the individual.
In this country, the idea was that the purpose of law
is singular . . . to protect liberty. This was recognized
and most clearly described by Frederick Bastiat 160 years
ago. See:
http://www.jim.com/bastiat.htm
Assume that one subscribes to these notions of liberty
and the purpose of law. Then pass all the "discussion"
about the metric system though the finely tuned filter
of individual liberty. We're left with the
simple-idea that the metric system is elegant
and a process to embrace and nurture. All the rest are
attacks on the person of others that serves
no purpose except to inflame and encourage those who
would subvert law to their own purposes for what ever
reason.
Again I will suggest that we filter our own words
before posting them here on the List. If offering
an opinion, do the words serve to enlighten or
are they simply a vent upon a condition over which
a society of honorable lawgivers has no control?
If the former, then your ideas are welcome under the
charter of improving on the best we know how to do.
If the later, then consider posting them in another
venue for they serve no good and valuable purpose here.
If we subscribe to this philosophy then there is no
reason for anyone here on the List to seek the
protection of "flame suits".
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Some tips on using self-sticking Velcro |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> He had
> to go get a pry bar to open the Velcro interface and we
> needed a heat gun to get the adhesive to let loose of the
> airplane when we were done. He's convinced.
>
I've used velcro strips to route the wiring in my tube framed Delta. 3M
sells a product at the big box hardware stores that is a roll of 6"
strips with a slot in one side. I wrap the strip around a tube and
through the slot, which allows me to cinch it down tight to the tube.
This will leave a layer of velcro between the wire and the tube. I
orient the strip so that the remainder will 'cup' or 'catch' the wires.
I space them about every 6 to 8 inches, and one on each side of a
corner. I don't pull the velcro down tight untill I think I have all
the wires routed, but then the strip will go around about 3 times. I
apply as much pressure as I can while wrapping it. I can pull a single
wire of a bundle through about 3 or 4 straps, unless it's around a
corner. In that case, I have to pull a loop into the corner and then
out to the other side. I haven't been able to pull of wire off of a
tube, yet. The velcro lays down very smooth once it has been rubbed
down good, and you have to search for the end with a fingernail if you
want to pull it up and adjust it. You can slide a single strap from
side to side, if you're patient.
It works well to bundle wires together also, but you can't get it as
tight as you can when you have the steel tube to pull against.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Hinchcliff" <cfi(at)conwaycorp.net> |
| Subject: | Flaked Regulator? |
Hello Bob and All. I noticed in a friend's Cessna 152 that the ammeter
needle wags back and forth like a golden retriever's tail at a steak
dinner, except at half and not full deflection. He said it has always
done that. I turned the dome light on and noticed it dims and brightens
at the same frequency as the needle wag. I'm assuming the voltage
regulator has flaked out, but we all know what assumptions do. How
would you suggest troubleshooting this? Is this a real problem or a
just a nuisance? The limited avionics are all FAA TSO'd, so I'm
assuming they have adequate spike/surge protection built in, but I'm not
so sure a constant barrage of surge/spikes was considered in the design.
Please share your thoughts.
Michael H.
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob and all,
>
> I'll suggest again that the issues raised are exceedingly
> complex and essentially "insolvable" without imposing
> external forces that go against a foundation on which
> this nation was created. Namely, one is free to do as
> one wishes as long as their actions do not infringe on
> the liberty of others.
It is true that in Europe, for instance, the use of legal units has been
enforced by law from the beginning.
The main purpose was to protect customers against errors and cheating
in commerce.
Whereas I understand that in your country many may feel that one is free
to use any unit he feels fit, is that really so ? Is a service station
for instance, really allowed to sell gas by the "Dame Jeanne", or
"demi-bouteille", so that some customers are embarrassed to compare
prices ? Even if customers agreed, wouldn't some lawyer find something
in the law that is against it ?
Just wondering,
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
| From: | "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers(at)fdic.gov> |
I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is placed in
the center position - that is what I expected. My problem is that the
flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion. Mostly, I
would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the flasher that
causes the odd behavior.
Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should not happen
and that the flasher is defective. If so, I would like to know, so that
I can get a good one.
If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function, please
explain it.
Thanks,
Bob
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
Bob;
Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1 flasher will
not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp. Hence the
requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag priority
operation" By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both in
the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher
does not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one
case, berserk in the other)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J. <mailto:BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang II
kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his
published article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am using
two independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power sources
for each light. The system is wired per the instructions. Everything
works as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No. 6,
below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights are
on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch is on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes through the
WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second
intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light is on
but no flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle - FLASHER
GOES CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing light
flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher. The
flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per
second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs
through the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change
connections from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches,
then the buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the
middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on when a
single switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the
other switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes
nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange behavior?
Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but since I
do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot figure
it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single switch in the
middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to know why this is
happening and whether there is any way to prevent it. I do not want to
inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this
vibration mode and leaving it there.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m
a
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net> |
Quoting Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>:
> It is true that in Europe, for instance, the use of legal units has been
> enforced by law from the beginning.
> The main purpose was to protect customers against errors and cheating
> in commerce.
>
> Whereas I understand that in your country many may feel that one is free
> to use any unit he feels fit, is that really so ? Is a service station
> for instance, really allowed to sell gas by the "Dame Jeanne", or
> "demi-bouteille", so that some customers are embarrassed to compare
> prices ? Even if customers agreed, wouldn't some lawyer find something
> in the law that is against it ?
>
> Just wondering,
>
> Regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
Gilles,
I'll admit up front that I am not sure for all markets, or exactly where the law
is; but I will say that generally, in practice, yes I believe this is correct.
As long as you have a standard of measure, and can prove to the local auditor
that your dispensing of product meets the standards for repeatability, then
there is no issue. Thus, we have soda pop dispensed by the fluid ounce as well
as 1 and 2 liter bottles. A gasoline station must display a current auditor's
sticker stating that it does dispense gallons accurately, but I believe it
could easily do so in liters if they wished.
Likewise I may sell cat food in a 12 oz bag, while my competitor sells a 10 oz
bag for slightly less money. There is no conflict, though many supermarkets
include a "per oz" price on the label to help the consumer - this is voluntary.
The same is true on toilet paper, where one roll may be 1,000 sheets and
another only 850, there is no requirement to advertise the "per sheet" cost.
Caveat emptor. Part of a free society is the freedom to be foolish with your
money. The facts must be there, what you do with them is your personal
responsibility (at least until the lawyers screw it up).
B
PS: It appears that ATF requires alcohol to be in Metric:
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dates.htm
and the FDA requires dual (English/SI) labelling - so in food and drugs you must
comply with these systems
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/laws/fpla.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Herring <dsleepy47(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Flaked Regulator? |
Does the needle go in time with the flashing beacon? The beacon will draw a
bout 10 - 11 amps and will cause the needle to fluctuate. The power supply
is usually 2 sided so it can run a top and bottom beacon. Some planes with
1 beacon put a resistor on the other side of the power supply as a load to
stop the fluctuation.
Deems
From: cfi(at)conwaycorp.netTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroEle
ctric-List: Flaked Regulator?Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:17:19 -0600
Hello Bob and All. I noticed in a friend=92s Cessna 152 that the ammeter n
eedle wags back and forth like a golden retriever=92s tail at a steak dinne
r, except at half and not full deflection. He said it has always done that
. I turned the dome light on and noticed it dims and brightens at the same
frequency as the needle wag. I=92m assuming the voltage regulator has fla
ked out, but we all know what assumptions do. How would you suggest troubl
eshooting this? Is this a real problem or a just a nuisance? The limited
avionics are all FAA TSO=92d, so I=92m assuming they have adequate spike/s
urge protection built in, but I=92m not so sure a constant barrage of surge
/spikes was considered in the design. Please share your thoughts.
Michael H.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces
http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the US as we don't use
such a thing (I'm here in England by the way)
Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the 'Wig-Wag' alternates
each landing light, only one landing light is on at any one time - yes:
surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the effect,
especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a
continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.
John (co-building RV9a) England
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is placed
in the center position - that is what I expected. My problem is that
the flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion.
Mostly, I would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the
flasher that causes the odd behavior.
Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should not
happen and that the flasher is defective. If so, I would like to know,
so that I can get a good one.
If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function, please
explain it.
Thanks,
Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:54 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
Bob;
Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1 flasher
will not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp. Hence the
requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag priority
operation" By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both in
the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher
does not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one
case, berserk in the other)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang II
kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his
published article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am using two
independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power sources for
each light. The system is wired per the instructions. Everything works
as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No. 6, below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights are on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch is on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes through the
WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second
intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light is on but
no flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle - FLASHER GOES
CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing light
flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher. The
flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per
second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs through
the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change connections
from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches, then the
buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on when a
single switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the
other switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes
nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange behavior?
Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but since I
do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot figure
it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single switch in the
middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to know why this is
happening and whether there is any way to prevent it. I do not want to
inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this
vibration mode and leaving it there.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w
ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com"
>www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.co
mhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
www.aeroelectric.comwww.kitlog.comhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aero
Electric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Duel LSI ignitions (No mags) |
| From: | "Don Owens" <springcanyon(at)methow.com> |
Hi all, I would like some input on what would make others feel comfortable when
powering duel electronic ignitions. I plan to have night and IFR capability
in an RV-7. I have looked at Bob's schematics: Z-12 and Z-14. The Z-14 certainly
covers all the bases, but I hate to hang an extra battery up front if it
is not absolutely necessary. I am thinking that the Z-12 with the B&C 40 amp
alternator up front and a B&C 20 amp alternator on the vacuum pump pad and a
17 amp/hr battery that would be redundancy enough. Am I living on the edge?
Thanks for the input
Don Owens
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76132#76132
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
The benefit of wig-wags, as well as alternating strobes, is that they
produce a sense of movement which is more readily detected by the eye than a
fixed position light, whether steady or flashing.
Regards,
Greg Young
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN
TIPTON
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the US as we don't use such
a thing (I'm here in England by the way)
Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the 'Wig-Wag' alternates each
landing light, only one landing light is on at any one time - yes: surely
two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the effect, especially as
it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a continuous light
can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.
John (co-building RV9a) England
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc. on
building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that would
get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
-Sean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btinternet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the US as we don't use
such a thing (I'm here in England by the way)
Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the 'Wig-Wag' alternates
each landing light, only one landing light is on at any one time - yes:
surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the effect,
especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a
continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.
John (co-building RV9a) England
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is placed
in the center position - that is what I expected. My problem is that
the flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion.
Mostly, I would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the
flasher that causes the odd behavior.
Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should not
happen and that the flasher is defective. If so, I would like to know,
so that I can get a good one.
If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function, please
explain it.
Thanks,
Bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:54 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
Bob;
Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1 flasher
will not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp. Hence the
requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag priority
operation" By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both in
the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher
does not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one
case, berserk in the other)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang II
kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his
published article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am using two
independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power sources for
each light. The system is wired per the instructions. Everything works
as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No. 6, below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights are on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch is on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes through the
WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second
intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light is on but
no flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle - FLASHER GOES
CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing light
flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher. The
flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per
second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs through
the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change connections
from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches, then the
buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on when a
single switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the
other switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes
nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange behavior?
Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but since I
do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot figure
it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single switch in the
middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to know why this is
happening and whether there is any way to prevent it. I do not want to
inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this
vibration mode and leaving it there.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://w
ww.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com"
>www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.co
mhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
www.aeroelectric.comwww.kitlog.comhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aero
Electric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
From:
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I would have to disagree John..At least from my own anecdotal
observations. Slow flashing landing lights get my attention much more
readily than a steady light.
The wig-wigs are used in addition to the strobes, strobes in fact are
not a requirement as far as I know but everyone fits them...At least
that used to be true for VFR, might be different for IFR ops?
The other benefit of the Wig-wag is if you use the wingtip landing
lights it is only half the heating effect on the plastic lens of the
sheared wingtip. Rumour has it that a 75W bulb will melt the lens if
left on for long periods.
I flew the Rv7a for the first time at night (albeit on a lighted runway)
yesterday and the 75W wig wags light the runway pretty well...If I was
at minimums on IFR at night I would probably switch them both on.
Wig wags also use half power as well.
Frank...Ex-pat Brit living in Oregon.
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN
TIPTON
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the US as we don't use
such a thing (I'm here in England by the way)
Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the 'Wig-Wag' alternates
each landing light, only one landing light is on at any one time - yes:
surely two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the effect,
especially as it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a
continuous light can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.
John (co-building RV9a) England
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J. <mailto:BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is
placed in the center position - that is what I expected. My problem is
that the flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion.
Mostly, I would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the
flasher that causes the odd behavior.
Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should
not happen and that the flasher is defective. If so, I would like to
know, so that I can get a good one.
If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function,
please explain it.
Thanks,
Bob
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:54 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
Bob;
Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1
flasher will not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp.
Hence the requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag
priority operation" By placing either 1 or the other switches but not
both in the centre position you are violating this condition, hence the
flasher does not operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in
one case, berserk in the other)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J. <mailto:BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my
Mustang II kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in
his published article
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am
using two independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power
sources for each light. The system is wired per the instructions.
Everything works as it should, with one small exception, noted as item
No. 6, below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing
lights are on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch
is on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes
through the WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about
one second intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle -
light is on but no flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle -
FLASHER GOES CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the
landing light flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the
flasher. The flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or
dozens of times per second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power
runs through the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change
connections from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches,
then the buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the
middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on
when a single switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when
the other switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher
goes nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange
behavior? Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works,
but since I do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I
cannot figure it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single
switch in the middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to
know why this is happening and whether there is any way to prevent it.
I do not want to inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally
triggering this vibration mode and leaving it there.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m
a
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
www.aeroelectric.com
www.kitlog.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m
a
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Duel LSI ignitions (No mags) |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Here is what I have.
No mechanical fuel pump...two FI electric pumps one in each wingroot.
Emag and Pmag (Pmag is self powering)...If I could have been certain the
SD8 had enough guts I would have bought 2*Emags.
I have a GNS430,main buss
GTX 327, Icom A200 (wired to endurance buss)
Odyssey 18AH battery.
Last night I ran the SD8 on the ground and was very surprised to find
that at only 2000RPM (lycoming) I had enough power to run one fuel pump
and all the electronics...This includes the main contactor. Certainly if
I added any lights the batt volts would drop.
Now if my main alt died in flight I might still switch over to the
endrance buss and shutdown the Emag and run the RPMs to 2600. But it
seems I don't have to go mad about turning everything off I can to
maintain 12.2v at the battery. In real life if I was cross country IFR I
would probably go to the minimum, i.e turn off the 430 and audio
panel...But hand fly vectors from ATC...Making sure I have plenty of
charge to the Odyssey.
I suspect the SD8 makes more power than advertised. This is intened as a
night IFR machine.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Owens
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duel LSI ignitions (No mags)
-->
Hi all, I would like some input on what would make others feel
comfortable when powering duel electronic ignitions. I plan to have
night and IFR capability in an RV-7. I have looked at Bob's schematics:
Z-12 and Z-14. The Z-14 certainly covers all the bases, but I hate to
hang an extra battery up front if it is not absolutely necessary. I am
thinking that the Z-12 with the B&C 40 amp alternator up front and a B&C
20 amp alternator on the vacuum pump pad and a 17 amp/hr battery that
would be redundancy enough. Am I living on the edge?
Thanks for the input
Don Owens
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76132#76132
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kenneth Melvin" <melvinke(at)coho.net> |
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
With respect to the visibility aspects of steady vs flashing lights, it
should be noted that the Lockheed Hudson in British Maritime use during WW11
used a steady bright light on each leading edge to render the aircraft less
starkly visible against a bright sky when attacking U-Boats from up-sun.
Kenneth Melvin
P51 N51KX
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN
TIPTON
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the US as we don't use such
a thing (I'm here in England by the way)
Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the 'Wig-Wag' alternates each
landing light, only one landing light is on at any one time - yes: surely
two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the effect, especially as
it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a continuous light
can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.
John (co-building RV9a) England
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J. <mailto:BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is
placed in the center position - that is what I expected. My problem is that
the flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion. Mostly, I
would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the flasher that causes
the odd behavior.
Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should not
happen and that the flasher is defective. If so, I would like to know, so
that I can get a good one.
If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function,
please explain it.
Thanks,
Bob
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:54 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
Bob;
Note 1 on the drawings you've linked to, states "The SSF-1 flasher
will not operate unless both outputs are loaded with a lamp. Hence the
requirement to transfer both lamps to the flasher for wig-wag priority
operation" By placing either 1 or the other switches but not both in the
centre position you are violating this condition, hence the flasher does not
operate correctly just as the note explains. (steady in one case, berserk in
the other)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J. <mailto:BRogers(at)fdic.gov>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I installed my taxi and landing lights in my Mustang
II kitplane, using the WigWag system described by Bob Nuckols in his
published article http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
The WigWag flasher came from B&C Specialty. I am
using two independent 2-10 (three-way) switches with independent power
sources for each light. The system is wired per the instructions.
Everything works as it should, with one small exception, noted as item No.
6, below.
1. Both switches down - everything is off
2. Both switches up - both taxi and landing lights
are on
3. Either switch up - the light for that switch is
on
4. Both switches in the middle - power goes through
the WigWag flasher and the lights alternate on and off in about one second
intervals.
5. Taxi light switch (only) in the middle - light
is on but no flash.
6. Landing light switch (only) in the middle -
FLASHER GOES CRAZY!
In the last described position (no. 6.), the landing
light flickers and you can hear an audible buzz coming from the flasher.
The flasher seems to be vibrating rapidly (many times or dozens of times per
second) between on and off.
I think the vibrating mode occurs when the power runs
through the middle connector of the flasher, because when I change
connections from the flasher to the Landing and Taxi Light switches, then
the buzzing starts only when the other light switch is moved to the middle.
I do not understand why one light merely turns on when
a single switch is moved to the middle (flasher) position but when the other
switch is moved (alone) to the middle position, the flasher goes nuts.
Does anyone have an explanation for this strange
behavior? Perhaps the answer lies in the way that the flasher works, but
since I do not know or understand the mechanism of the flasher, I cannot
figure it out. I guess the simple answer is, "Don't put a single switch in
the middle (flasher position)." But I would still like to know why this is
happening and whether there is any way to prevent it. I do not want to
inadvertently damage the flasher by accidentally triggering this vibration
mode and leaving it there.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
www.aeroelectric.com
www.kitlog.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
I just tried to order an LRC3-14 linear voltage regulator from B&C. I
figured that I would go for the battery temperature option to give my
battery the best attention that I could. The guys at B&C said that you only
need the battery temperature option if you are somewhere like the north
pole. I don't get it, doesn't the battery need a different level of charge
from summer to winter? I don't understand why B&C is reluctant to sell the
battery temperature option on their LRC3-14 voltage regulater. Anybody
understand the physics of that recomendation?
Regards,
Bob Lee
N52BL KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
| Subject: | Duel LSI ignitions (No mags) |
Don,
I'm right there on the edge with you. I've got dual electronic ignition and
a modified version of Z-13. I have a second battery buss that only powers
the secondary ignition and fuel pump. That way the only single point of
failure is the bolt at the battery post. Can you say loc-tite, castle nut
and safety wire! The secondary ignition will be grounded directly to the
battery also. I have a 40amp primary alternator and a 20 amp back up dynamo
that runs on the endurance bus so if the master contactor craps out I'm
still flying with half power (electrical).
Regards,
Bob Lee
N52BL KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don
Owens
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duel LSI ignitions (No mags)
Hi all, I would like some input on what would make others feel comfortable
when powering duel electronic ignitions. I plan to have night and IFR
capability in an RV-7. I have looked at Bob's schematics: Z-12 and Z-14.
The Z-14 certainly covers all the bases, but I hate to hang an extra battery
up front if it is not absolutely necessary. I am thinking that the Z-12
with the B&C 40 amp alternator up front and a B&C 20 amp alternator on the
vacuum pump pad and a 17 amp/hr battery that would be redundancy enough. Am
I living on the edge?
Thanks for the input
Don Owens
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76132#76132
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
check out 3 axis accelerometers and 3 axis magnetometers.
David M.
still trying to get a handle on it myself.
Sean Stephens wrote:
>
>
> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc.
> on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that
> would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>
> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>
> -Sean
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Salvati <pats4p(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I have a question and I'm in search of an answer. I have a 24V system with a 24/12
volt 15A converter . Can the output ground of the converter (12V) use the
same single point ground as the 24V, or is it necessary to supply a second dedicated
ground point for the 12V ?
Thanks,
Pat
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
Hi Sean,
Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
components to get started.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>
>
> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc. on
> building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that would get
> me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>
> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>
> -Sean
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
>I have a question and I'm in search of an answer. I have a 24V system with
>a 24/12 volt 15A converter . Can the output ground of the converter (12V)
>use the same single point ground as the 24V, or is it necessary to supply
>a second dedicated ground point for the 12V ?
Tie them all together . . . preferably at carefully
crafted locations designed to minimize the number of
grounds and risks for ground-loop noise. See Figure
Z-15 in . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
Bob;
When the notes say "won't operate" they don't necessarily mean sit there
dormant doing nothing. They mean won't give the desired or expected
result. This is exactly what is happening in your case. I don't know
positively for sure, but expect that this flasher's output is through a
double throw relay with both the normally open and normally closed
contacts also wired to a time delay on and time delay off circuit
operating the coil. The results you are getting are possibly explained
by the one light being connected to the NC contact therefore turning the
lamp "on". Connecting the other lamp to the NO output which is the "turn
on timer" circuit, also momentarily closes the relay turning on the
lamp, but instantaneously it turns off again because there is no load on
the other output, thus putting the timer into a "buzzer" mode where the
action of turning on the relay turns it off. With both loads connected
the on-off action of the timer operates correctly causing the relay
contacts to rhythmically transfer, making the two outputs alternately
turn on for roughly equal amounts of time. (poor explanation, I know,
but hopefully you get the idea) The "buzzer" action is so fast that the
lamp only appears to glow, or flicker, because the "on" time is so
short.
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers, Bob J.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
I can accept the flasher not operating when one switch only is placed
in the center position - that is what I expected. My problem is that
the flasher DOES operate, albeit in a wild, uncontrolled fashion.
Mostly, I would like to know what it is about the mechanism of the
flasher that causes the odd behavior.
Another possibility is that the rapid on-off vibration should not
happen and that the flasher is defective. If so, I would like to know,
so that I can get a good one.
If someone understands how the flasher is supposed to function, please
explain it.
Thanks,
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Duel LSI ignitions (No mags) |
Sounds reasonable to me as long as like the B&C 8, the B&C 20 runs fine
with the big capacitor in the circuit but no battery?
FWIW I am running Z-14 with two 8 AH batteries for the same total
battery weight although more expense. They parallel during cranking but
one will start the subaru just fine. I've found that with a dead battery
my John Deere PM alternator pops the overvoltage protection and fries
the regulator so it would likely be useless without a battery in the
circuit such as after a failed battery contactor or whatever. Probably
overkill but the nice thing about Z-14 is that my two ignitions etc. do
not share any common parts or wiring.
Ken
Don Owens wrote:
>
>Hi all, I would like some input on what would make others feel comfortable when
powering duel electronic ignitions. I plan to have night and IFR capability
in an RV-7. I have looked at Bob's schematics: Z-12 and Z-14. The Z-14 certainly
covers all the bases, but I hate to hang an extra battery up front if it
is not absolutely necessary. I am thinking that the Z-12 with the B&C 40 amp
alternator up front and a B&C 20 amp alternator on the vacuum pump pad and a
17 amp/hr battery that would be redundancy enough. Am I living on the edge?
>
>Thanks for the input
>Don Owens
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
>
>With respect to the visibility aspects of steady vs flashing lights, it
>should be noted that the Lockheed Hudson in British Maritime use during WW11
>used a steady bright light on each leading edge to render the aircraft less
>starkly visible against a bright sky when attacking U-Boats from up-sun.
>Kenneth Melvin
But those lights were adjustable with the notion of having
them closely emulate the color temperature of the background
sky. If the backdrop were clouds, the light would have the opposite
effect and make the aircraft stand out like a sore thumb.
When Lopresti first offered the hi-intensity automotive lamps
for aircraft, we installed on in our flight test Bonanza. On a
clear day, the tower could not see the new light against the
sunlit clear sky. Strobes are also hard to see against a sunlit
cloudless sky. Incandescent lamps have much redder color
and stand out nicely against a daytime sky.
>P51 N51KX
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN
>TIPTON
>Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:53 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz
>
>I'm intrigued by this 'Wig-Wag' system used in the US as we don't use such
>a thing (I'm here in England by the way)
>
>Is the 'Wig-Wag' instead of strobes - and if the 'Wig-Wag' alternates each
>landing light, only one landing light is on at any one time - yes: surely
>two landing lights would give better i.e. twice, the effect, especially as
>it has been proved (and please don't ask me where) that a continuous light
>can just a easily be seen as a flashing light.
Perhaps "SEEN" but not "NOTICED". A wig-wag is useful only
when the subtended visual angle between the two lamps is large
enough to produce perceivable "motion". Suppose your lights are
25 feet apart on wing of your airplane. A person with 20/20
vision would just perceive wig-wag motion when the subtended angle
between the two lights was on the order of 5 arc-minutes apart.
This would happen at about 17,000 feet or just over three miles.
It's not the on-off flashing that gets attention but the apparent
motion of the light moving from one side of the airplane to the
other. At a mile away, the motion would be about 15 arc seconds
and quite attention getting.
Features that enhance attention getting is color temperature
markedly different from background behind you and the appearance
of motion and the period of the motion 1 to 3 excursions per
second.
Railroad grade crossing signals used to feature mechanical
wig-wags like:
http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/wigwag3.jpg
Some of these are still in service but most use the
more familiar . . .
http://k47.pbase.com/g4/93/584893/2/62014379.1IKNZYgt.jpg
The principal of a pair alternately illuminated lights is
the same . . . generate a perception of motion.
Years ago when we started installing the incandescent
Aeroflash beacons on Cessnas, there was a lot of objection
to the flashing of panel lights when the 12A bulb was
cycled on and off. Since our flasher modules would handle
two lamps, we tried on lamp on top of vertical fin and
the other on the bottom of the fuselage. Vertical
separation was on the order of 10' so you had to be less
than a mile away before the alternately flashing lights
would be perceived to have vertical motion as opposed to
looking like a single, always lit lamp.
So it isn't just the flash but a combination of things
most important of which is appearance of motion that makes
the wig-wag system work well. Got to study these issues in
detail back in my accident investigation and courtroom
presentations days.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution
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Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
>Bob;
>
>When the notes say "won't operate" they don't necessarily mean sit there
>dormant doing nothing. They mean won't give the desired or expected
>result. This is exactly what is happening in your case. I don't know
>positively for sure, but expect that this flasher's output is through a
>double throw relay with both the normally open and normally closed
>contacts also wired to a time delay on and time delay off circuit
>operating the coil. The results you are getting are possibly explained by
>the one light being connected to the NC contact therefore turning the lamp
>"on". Connecting the other lamp to the NO output which is the "turn on
>timer" circuit, also momentarily closes the relay turning on the lamp, but
>instantaneously it turns off again because there is no load on the other
>output, thus putting the timer into a "buzzer" mode where the action of
>turning on the relay turns it off. With both loads connected the on-off
>action of the timer operates correctly causing the relay contacts to
>rhythmically transfer, making the two outputs alternately turn on for
>roughly equal amounts of time. (poor explanation, I know, but hopefully
>you get the idea) The "buzzer" action is so fast that the lamp only
>appears to glow, or flicker, because the "on" time is so short.
Your perceptions and analysis are correct. Well done.
If I had designed the flasher, it would have been a 4-wire
device and its operation would have been independent of
which or how many load lamps were attached. This is an
automotive flasher intended to replace the classic 3-wire,
thermal devices used on vehicles for a very long time.
When you don't have the 4th lead for a solid ground, the
circuit depends on seeing a ground in through the OFF
side lamp.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>I just tried to order an LRC3-14 linear voltage regulator from B&C. I
>figured that I would go for the battery temperature option to give my
>battery the best attention that I could. The guys at B&C said that you only
>need the battery temperature option if you are somewhere like the north
>pole. I don't get it, doesn't the battery need a different level of charge
>from summer to winter? I don't understand why B&C is reluctant to sell the
>battery temperature option on their LRC3-14 voltage regulater. Anybody
>understand the physics of that recomendation?
It's a matter of return on investment for the $time$
required to incorporate any particular feature. If you
study the manuals for batteries, you'll find prescriptions
for optimal battery performance based on their laboratory
tests and the considered opinions of their staff.
Not all manufacturer's have the same recommendations. This
has sparked discussions here on the List about whether or not
any particular brand or technology of battery is best served
by setting a regulator at 14.1 or 14.3 volts, etc.
However, the manner in which we use batteries is a far
cry from the manner in which they are tested for "optimal"
performance. Further, I've never seen a study by manufacturers
or others that quantify the penalties of operating a battery
in less-than optimal conditions. Would a 14.5 volt setting
cause me to replace a battery one month too soon?
I suspect that the data we'd like to see will never
be forthcoming mostly because departures from optimized
operating conditions in service are (1) of so little
influence as to be practical considerations and/or
(2) so much trouble to accomplish that return on investment
is poor.
I designed the temperature compensator probe for the
LR series regulators to address a profound performance
issue. One of our customers frequently traveled long
distances at high cruising altitudes that cold-soaked
his battery. After the third or forth fuel stop, his
battery would not vigorously crank the engine. It was
so cold that the nominal 14.2 volt set-point was not
recharging the battery.
The thrust of B&C's recommendations take this
experience into consideration such that they do not
recommend the temperature compensator unless you
EXPECT or have EXPERIENCED battery failure-to-
perform based on temperature effects. A very rare
condition in the OBAM aircraft community.
Further, any fussing one might choose to do over
seasonally adjusting their bus voltage is problematic
as to whether any increased battery performance or
longevity will be perceived.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
>The benefit of wig-wags, as well as alternating strobes, is that they
>produce a sense of movement which is more readily detected by the eye than
>a fixed position light, whether steady or flashing.
>
>Regards,
>Greg Young
Right on!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
The 3 lead device provides immediate audio notification of a burned out
light bulb when installed in a reasonably quiet vehicle. Some days I
notice an amazing percentage of vehicles with one (or often several)
dead bulbs and that is a definate contributor to accidents!
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>> Bob;
>>
>> When the notes say "won't operate" they don't necessarily mean sit
>> there dormant doing nothing. They mean won't give the desired or
>> expected result. This is exactly what is happening in your case. I
>> don't know positively for sure, but expect that this flasher's output
>> is through a double throw relay with both the normally open and
>> normally closed contacts also wired to a time delay on and time delay
>> off circuit operating the coil. The results you are getting are
>> possibly explained by the one light being connected to the NC contact
>> therefore turning the lamp "on". Connecting the other lamp to the NO
>> output which is the "turn on timer" circuit, also momentarily closes
>> the relay turning on the lamp, but instantaneously it turns off again
>> because there is no load on the other output, thus putting the timer
>> into a "buzzer" mode where the action of turning on the relay turns
>> it off. With both loads connected the on-off action of the timer
>> operates correctly causing the relay contacts to rhythmically
>> transfer, making the two outputs alternately turn on for roughly
>> equal amounts of time. (poor explanation, I know, but hopefully you
>> get the idea) The "buzzer" action is so fast that the lamp only
>> appears to glow, or flicker, because the "on" time is so short.
>
>
> Your perceptions and analysis are correct. Well done.
> If I had designed the flasher, it would have been a 4-wire
> device and its operation would have been independent of
> which or how many load lamps were attached. This is an
> automotive flasher intended to replace the classic 3-wire,
> thermal devices used on vehicles for a very long time.
> When you don't have the 4th lead for a solid ground, the
> circuit depends on seeing a ground in through the OFF
> side lamp.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz (the rest of the story) |
I didn't finish the thought in the paragraphs below -
so here's the rest of the story:
The principal of a pair alternately illuminated lights is
the same . . . generate a perception of motion.
Years ago when we started installing the incandescent
Aeroflash beacons on Cessnas, there was a lot of objection
to the flashing of panel lights when the SINGLE 12A bulb was
cycled on and off. Since our flasher modules would handle
two lamps, we tried on lamp on top of vertical fin and
the other on the bottom of the fuselage. THE IDEA WAS THAT
HAVING AT LEAST ONE LAMP LIT ALL THE TIME WOULD REDUCE THE
BUS VOLTAGE PERTURBATIONS AND STOP THE IRRITATING 'BEAT'
IN PANEL LIGHTING. THE FIX "WORKED". HOWEVER . . .
Vertical
separation was on the order of 10' so you had to be less
than a mile away before the alternately flashing lights
would be perceived to have vertical motion as opposed to
looking like a single, always lit lamp.
SO, INSTEAD OF TWO LAMPS TO PRESENT A CONSTANT LOAD TO
THE BUS, WE WENT TO ONE LAMP AND A FAT RESISTOR IN PLACE
OF THE SECOND LAMP. THE APPEARANCE OF 'FLASHING' AT
DISTANCE WAS RESTORED AND FLICKERING IN THE PANEL LIGHTS
WAS SURPRESSED.
So it isn't just the flash but a combination of things
most important of which is appearance of motion that makes
the wig-wag system work well. Got to study these issues in
detail back in my accident investigation and courtroom
presentations days.
Bob . . .
--
-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
BobK wrote:
<<
The thrust of B&C's recommendations take this
experience into consideration such that they do not
recommend the temperature compensator unless you
EXPECT or have EXPERIENCED battery failure-to-
perform based on temperature effects. A very rare
condition in the OBAM aircraft community.
Further, any fussing one might choose to do over
seasonally adjusting their bus voltage is problematic
as to whether any increased battery performance or
longevity will be perceived.
Bob . . .
>>
There are conditions other than "battery failure" that make the use of the
temperature sensor a good idea. During winter time flying the battery will
be cold-soaked at the time that it needs to do it's heaviest job, crank the
engine. This puts the battery at an even lower state of charge. The most
important use of the battery is to power the flight essential loads under
alternator failure conditions. Since I have a composite aircraft I have
decided to use a linear regulator. The B&C LRC3-14 already has the
temperature sence capability built into it. So for the price of a couple of
batteries I can add the sensor and use this included feature.
Would it work ok without the sensor, sure, but I think it will give me an
advantage when the battery is cold to get to full charge quicker. The proof
will be in monitoring bus voltage vs temperature to see if anything changes.
Thanks for the information Bob, even if I do go the opposite way you
indicated!
Regards,
Bob Lee
N52BL KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Duel LSI ignitions (No mags) |
Don,
I have been running dual LSI on my IO-550 powered Lancair Legacy since
Feb. 2006 and have 160 hours on it so far. I also wanted full night and
IFR capabilities. I went with the Z-14, 12 volt system, 80amp primary
alternator, and the 20 amp B&C alternator. The 80 amp main bus runs
most everything and the 20 amp bus runs one ignition, backup EFIS,
autopilot, landing gear indicators, and backup power for dual bus
avionics such as the air data computer, primary EFIS gyro, Nav/Com and
transponder. With everything running on the 20 amp bus I draw about 11
amps and can continue running the airplane in an IFR environment.
I read many post about running lighting on the secondary bus. When you
lose more then half of your power, the last thing you need are lights.
My airplane is setup with 8 busses: Two Ignition Busses 1 left & right,
(wired before the master contactor, so when the ignition switches are on
the ignition system is powered regardless of master switch position.)
Two direct battery busses 1 left & right(for courtesy items such as
cargo light and plug-ins for a GPS or other devices not used in flight,
main busses 1 left & right (all non-avionics systems), Two avionics
busses 1 left and right (all avionics systems). The main busses have a
tie contactor (normally always open/off) to provide additional starting
power and power in the event of an alternator failure on one side. The
avionics busses have a tie (normally always open/off) in the event of a
main bus fault or avionics contactor failure.
If I had to say what the most important aspect of my system is, I would
say having the Ignition system on its own bus allowing it to get power
when all other systems are shut down of fail. In my system you would
have to loose both batteries (less than 5vdc nominal) to loose both
ignition systems.
To date the system has worked flawlessly.
Mike Larkin
Lancair Legacy
TS-11 Iskra
Kitfox IV
A-319/320
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don
Owens
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duel LSI ignitions (No mags)
Hi all, I would like some input on what would make others feel
comfortable
when powering duel electronic ignitions. I plan to have night and IFR
capability in an RV-7. I have looked at Bob's schematics: Z-12 and
Z-14.
The Z-14 certainly covers all the bases, but I hate to hang an extra
battery
up front if it is not absolutely necessary. I am thinking that the Z-12
with the B&C 40 amp alternator up front and a B&C 20 amp alternator on
the
vacuum pump pad and a 17 amp/hr battery that would be redundancy enough.
Am
I living on the edge?
Thanks for the input
Don Owens
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76132#76132
--
10/16/2006
--
10/16/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Duel LSI ignitions (No mags) |
| From: | "Roger Bentlage" <bentlage(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Don,
I have a similar situation. Dual LSI, Garmin stack, dual BMA EFIS, AFS engine
monitor, IO 360, all electric aircraft.
I opted for two totally independent electrical systems but with the ability to
tie them together. B&C 60 as primary, B&C20 on the vacuum pad. LSIs directly
to the batteries through guarded toggle switches. Radios, EFIS, lights, etc
split between the two systems.
I have a CAD (.dxf or .fcw) drawing I would be glad to share if anyone is interested.
Roger
RV-7 nearing completion
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76373#76373
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wig-Wag Makes Strange Buzz |
>
>The 3 lead device provides immediate audio notification of a burned out
>light bulb when installed in a reasonably quiet vehicle. Some days I
>notice an amazing percentage of vehicles with one (or often several) dead
>bulbs and that is a definate contributor to accidents!
>Ken
Very good! Only a dedicated OBAMer could truly make a silk
purse from a sows ear! I hadn't thought of that. I'll
add a note to that effect in the Wig-Wag wiring diagrams.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>BobK wrote:
>
><<
>
> The thrust of B&C's recommendations take this
> experience into consideration such that they do not
> recommend the temperature compensator unless you
> EXPECT or have EXPERIENCED battery failure-to-
> perform based on temperature effects. A very rare
> condition in the OBAM aircraft community.
>
> Further, any fussing one might choose to do over
> seasonally adjusting their bus voltage is problematic
> as to whether any increased battery performance or
> longevity will be perceived.
>
> Bob . . .
> >>
>
>
>There are conditions other than "battery failure" that make the use of the
>temperature sensor a good idea. During winter time flying the battery will
>be cold-soaked at the time that it needs to do it's heaviest job, crank the
>engine. This puts the battery at an even lower state of charge. The most
>important use of the battery is to power the flight essential loads under
>alternator failure conditions. Since I have a composite aircraft I have
>decided to use a linear regulator. The B&C LRC3-14 already has the
>temperature sence capability built into it. So for the price of a couple of
>batteries I can add the sensor and use this included feature.
>
>Would it work ok without the sensor, sure, but I think it will give me an
>advantage when the battery is cold to get to full charge quicker. The proof
>will be in monitoring bus voltage vs temperature to see if anything changes.
>
>Thanks for the information Bob, even if I do go the opposite way you
>indicated!
How is it opposite? You have stated a perceived value
in temperature compensating your alternator output based
on battery temperature. You've correctly cited the mechanisms
by which some advantages may be gained when temperature
compensation is added. What's missing is quantification of
your assertions. "Get to full charge quicker" is un-quantified.
I would suggest it's useful to know the return on investment
for "the price of a couple of batteries". Keep in mind that
aviation has stumbled along with lead-acid batteries for
nearly 100 years. I've flown in the winter and had to wrestle
with battery limitations for getting engines started like
tens of thousands of pilots before me. Recall further that
if you've just beat the crap out of a battery getting the engine
started that internal losses in the battery are high and it
will warm up considerably by the time you got the engine started
and it's ready to accept a charge . . .
I'm not trying to discourage you from making the jump to
temperature compensated charging. I'll suggest that
having a second alternator on the vacuum pump pad is a
100% sure bet for quantifying your ability to operate the airplane
with a main alternator crapped while adding temperature
compensation only begs more questions than it answers.
Questions that can only be answered by extensive experimentation
and study of results.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT etc.
can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt have
anything better to do.
But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
well........
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>
>
> Hi Sean,
>
> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
>
> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
> components to get started.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> Matthews, NC
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>
>
>>
>>
>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc. on
>> building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that would
>> get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>>
>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Verwey" <bonanza(at)vodamail.co.za> |
| Subject: | Flaked Regulator? |
Micheal,
I have the same problem in my Bonanza, even with no load. At startup and low
revs, needle is steady at charge 20-30 amps. Within 30 seconds the
"retriever syndrome" starts. O/h the alternator and changed the regulator.
No difference. Also can hear the wig/wag in the headsets. Quite irritating.
I notice the voltage fluctuation on my "gear up" light.
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems
Herring
Sent: 21 Nov 2006 06:33 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Flaked Regulator?
Does the needle go in time with the flashing beacon? The beacon will draw
about 10 - 11 amps and will cause the needle to fluctuate. The power supply
is usually 2 sided so it can run a top and bottom beacon. Some planes with 1
beacon put a resistor on the other side of the power supply as a load to
stop the fluctuation.
Deems
_____
From: cfi(at)conwaycorp.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flaked Regulator?
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:17:19 -0600
Hello Bob and All. I noticed in a friend's Cessna 152 that the ammeter
needle wags back and forth like a golden retriever's tail at a steak dinner,
except at half and not full deflection. He said it has always done that. I
turned the dome light on and noticed it dims and brightens at the same
frequency as the needle wag. I'm assuming the voltage regulator has flaked
out, but we all know what assumptions do. How would you suggest
troubleshooting this? Is this a real problem or a just a nuisance? The
limited avionics are all FAA TSO'd, so I'm assuming they have adequate
spike/surge protection built in, but I'm not so sure a constant barrage of
surge/spikes was considered in the design. Please share your thoughts.
Michael H.
_____
Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces Try
<http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us> it!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
> Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to have an
> AHRS in your panel.
>
> But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur build
> aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed and built
> my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow transducer -
> yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased one - but, if I
> included even a modest value for my time - then the commercial one would
> have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not just to build my own, but
> to learn to design,build and program using microchips.
>
> I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator - again,
> not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price - but simply
> because I enjoy learning new things and building.
>
> Different strokes for different folks.
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> Matthews, NC
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>
>
>>
>>
>> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
>> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT etc.
>> can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
>> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt have
>> anything better to do.
>> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
>> well........
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Sean,
>>>
>>> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
>>>
>>> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
>>> components to get started.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>> Ed Anderson
>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>> Matthews, NC
>>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
>>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc.
>>>> on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that
>>>> would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> -Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaked Regulator? |
With the Mechanical flasher, two identical lights, and ground wires
running from the lights to the forest of tabs (instead of using the
airframe ground), I have no discernable noise in the headset. FWIW I
believe that grounding method is also the way to get rid of the slight
headset whine from my aeroflash strobes although it is a bit of work to
isolate the power supply from my metal wingspars. I can only hear the
whine on the ground so it is low priority.
Ken
Bob Verwey wrote:
> Micheal,
> I have the same problem in my Bonanza, even with no load. At startup
> and low revs, needle is steady at charge 20-30 amps. Within 30 seconds
> the "retriever syndrome" starts. O/h the alternator and changed the
> regulator. No difference. Also can hear the wig/wag in the headsets.
> Quite irritating. I notice the voltage fluctuation on my "gear up" light.
> Bob Verwey
> A35 Bonanza
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Deems Herring
> Sent: 21 Nov 2006 06:33 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Flaked Regulator?
>
>
> Does the needle go in time with the flashing beacon? The beacon will
> draw about 10 - 11 amps and will cause the needle to fluctuate. The
> power supply is usually 2 sided so it can run a top and bottom beacon.
> Some planes with 1 beacon put a resistor on the other side of the
> power supply as a load to stop the fluctuation.
>
> Deems
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: cfi(at)conwaycorp.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flaked Regulator?
> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:17:19 -0600
>
> Hello Bob and All. I noticed in a friends Cessna 152 that the
> ammeter needle wags back and forth like a golden retrievers tail
> at a steak dinner, except at half and not full deflection. He said
> it has always done that. I turned the dome light on and noticed it
> dims and brightens at the same frequency as the needle wag. Im
> assuming the voltage regulator has flaked out, but we all know
> what assumptions do. How would you suggest troubleshooting this?
> Is this a real problem or a just a nuisance? The limited avionics
> are all FAA TSOd, so Im assuming they have adequate spike/surge
> protection built in, but Im not so sure a constant barrage of
> surge/spikes was considered in the design. Please share your thoughts.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: D10-a check lists and POH |
| From: | "Ken Harrill" <kharrill(at)osa.state.sc.us> |
Jim,
I have one for my RV-6, 180 hp, C/S that I will be glad to send you. I can't attach
it to this message because it does not have an acceptable file extension.
Ken Harrill
ken.harrill(at)columbia.sc
--------
Ken Harrill
RV-6
Columiba, SC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76415#76415
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
Bob, et al,
I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow
the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the
engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and
secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors
off of the battery buss.
How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output
and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
>
>
> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT etc.
> can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt have
> anything better to do.
> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap well........
Depends on the goal. I'm presently trying to sell
some MBA types on the value of IR&D with an emphasis
on the "I".
Should you wish to understand and make utility of
the ingredients needed to accomplish a task, you need
to start with the simple-ideas. The task is to explore
how they perform and the elegant ways they may be
assembled into useful products.
If someone expresses a desire to "build" something,
it's not uncommon for folk to counsel against the
activity for a variety of reasons not the least of
which is a perceived re-invention of some wheel.
Randy has suggested that he might build one "cheap".
I CAN advise that for the majority of cases, tasks
of this nature may be emulated but unless your time
has zero value, it's never cheap. While the hardware
IS readily available and inexpensive, an AHRS system
designed around rate sensors is exceedingly software
intensive. Launching a new project of this type without
the support of a cadre' of smart people (knowledgeable
and experienced) is risky . . . especially if you
plan to poke your airplane into clouds.
The task is much more than buying some parts and
wiring them together. You need a working knowledge
of crafting flight stabilization software. You also
need a means for testing it without risking life, limb
or airplane. We used to do a lot of this work at RAC
Missiles and had hardware-in-the-loop simulation for
testing.
So before we can advise Randy well, we need to
know what his plan is. The starting point is today
and the end point is (????). What is it you wish
to achieve Randy? Be aware too that the successful
ventures of this type are never "cheap."
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
Okay, Ed. Want to tell us how you did it without a transducer?
Minds that need examining want to know...
-Stormy
On 11/22/06, Ed Anderson wrote:
>
>
> > Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to have an
> > AHRS in your panel.
> >
> > But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur build
> > aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed and built
> > my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow transducer -
> > yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased one - but, if I
> > included even a modest value for my time - then the commercial one would
> > have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not just to build my own, but
> > to learn to design,build and program using microchips.
> >
> > I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator - again,
> > not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price - but simply
> > because I enjoy learning new things and building.
> >
> > Different strokes for different folks.
> >
> > Ed
> > Ed Anderson
> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> > Matthews, NC
> > eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
> >> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT etc.
> >> can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
> >> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt have
> >> anything better to do.
> >> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
> >> well........
> >>
> >> Randy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Sean,
> >>>
> >>> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
> >>>
> >>> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
> >>> components to get started.
> >>>
> >>> Ed
> >>>
> >>> Ed Anderson
> >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> >>> Matthews, NC
> >>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
> >>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>
> >>> To:
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
> >>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc.
> >>>> on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that
> >>>> would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
> >>>>
> >>>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Sean
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Lee" <bob(at)flyboybob.com> |
BobK wrote:
I'm not trying to discourage you from making the jump to
temperature compensated charging.
Good, it sounded to me you were making a case supporting B&C against
this option
I'll suggest that having a second alternator on the vacuum pump pad is a
100% sure bet for quantifying your ability to operate the airplane
with a main alternator crapped
Agreed, I've got an aux alternator installed
while adding temperature
compensation only begs more questions than it answers.
Questions that can only be answered by extensive experimentation
and study of results.
Now there's the catch-22, if I don't install the temp sensor we will
never have the data to know if I should. As it turns out it's a gut
decision because you can't have data ahead to know what is the best thing to
do. I'm looking at this as a chance to improve the recovery time of the
battery to full charge. I really don't care about long term battery
effects. Battery only operation is the last resort for my electrically
dependant engine if some failure or failures prevent alternator operation
for both the primary and aux alternators. In addition there is the time
between the detection of low voltage and implementation of the low voltage
check list. The better shape the battery is in the less stress there is
during this phase of emergency flight operation. I don't ever want to get
to step 6 of the low voltage check list: (Step 6: If low voltage still
exists after turning on the aux alternator LAND NOW)! If I do get there I
want every advantage stacked in my favor to streatch the battery operation
for that flight.
According to BobK's law #1, Things WILL break. My adaptation of that law is
that: Things WILL break in ways you haven't anticipated. That's why I want
to have a better battery even though I have two alternators. I figure
battery state with temp sense will be at worst the same and at best better
than with out temp sense. So I'll do without one $100 hamburger and add the
temp sensor. Data to follow!
Bob . . .
Me too!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
You're out of luck, Bill. It takes a fuel delivery system designed post
stone age.
Charlie
(reluctantly contemplating a stone age engine to save build time)
Bill Boyd wrote:
>
>
> Okay, Ed. Want to tell us how you did it without a transducer?
>
> Minds that need examining want to know...
>
> -Stormy
>
> On 11/22/06, Ed Anderson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to
>> have an
>> > AHRS in your panel.
>> >
>> > But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur
>> build
>> > aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed and
>> built
>> > my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow transducer -
>> > yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased one - but, if I
>> > included even a modest value for my time - then the commercial one
>> would
>> > have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not just to build my
>> own, but
>> > to learn to design,build and program using microchips.
>> >
>> > I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator -
>> again,
>> > not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price - but
>> simply
>> > because I enjoy learning new things and building.
>> >
>> > Different strokes for different folks.
>> >
>> > Ed
>> > Ed Anderson
>> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>> > Matthews, NC
>> > eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
> Ok Stormy, you asked for it {:>).
>
> The "secret" is that my fuel system is Electronic Fuel Injection - The
> short of it is - I measure the pulse width of the signal sent to the fuel
> injectors. Skip the rest of the explanation which follows if that is
> sufficient enough answer {:>).
>
> Knowing the flow rate of the injectors and the duration of each revolution
> of the engine in which they are "turned on". This is used to form a ratio
> of Injector-On_time/Period-of-revolution which is multiplied by the total
> fuel flow capacity of the 4 injectors which gives the instantaneous flow
> rate. Then I (rather the chip) calculates the instantaneous rate of flow
> (adjusts the value for a 1 hour period) and displays it as "Gallons/Hour"
> fuel burn.
>
> To totalize the amount of fuel use, I set a variable with a value of time
> (microseconds) that equals 1/100 of a gallon (you could set it any
> quantity). When the "on-time" of the injectors has equaled that amount of
> time the Fuel totalizer increments by .01 gallon. and the "on-time" resets
> to zero waiting for the injector-on duration to again build up to that
> amount of time that equals 0.01 gallon again which then ticks over the
> display to 0.02 gallons, etc.
>
> These values are stored in memory so when you shut down, when you restart
> the engine, it picks up where it left off. Pilot set "Switch tank" and
> "low fuel" alarms are incorporated as well as an Air/Fuel indictor for
> mixture control. Fuel used, fuel remaining, time remaining at current burn
> rate, RPM and calculated HP (just because the info was there to do it) are
> also calculated and displayed on user selectable screens. It all fits in
> a 2 1/4" instrument hole.
>
> So the only thing the unit needs is a single wire to one of the Fuel
> injectors to get the pulse data (also needs one wire to the O2 sensor, if
> using the Air/Fuel indication function) , this saves the $200 or so for a
> fuel flow transducer. But, of course, it only works for electronic fuel
> injectors. Another nice feature is you don't need to even consider the
> unused fuel returned to the tank (some systems require two transducers to
> handle this ) because this unit only measure fuel actually injected and
> consumed and therefore doesn't worry about the fuel flowing in the lines
> or being diverted back to the tank.
>
> The parts cost considerably less than the fuel transducer- but, the amount
> of time it took me to learn to design with and program these microchips -
> would have amounted to thousands of dollars even at the minimum wage rate
> {:>)
>
> Now, aren't you sorry you asked {:>)?
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> Matthews, NC
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 2:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>
>
>>
>>
>> Okay, Ed. Want to tell us how you did it without a transducer?
>>
>> Minds that need examining want to know...
>>
>> -Stormy
>>
>> On 11/22/06, Ed Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to have
>>> > an
>>> > AHRS in your panel.
>>> >
>>> > But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur
>>> > build
>>> > aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed and
>>> > built
>>> > my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow transducer -
>>> > yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased one - but, if I
>>> > included even a modest value for my time - then the commercial one
>>> > would
>>> > have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not just to build my own,
>>> > but
>>> > to learn to design,build and program using microchips.
>>> >
>>> > I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator -
>>> > again,
>>> > not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price - but
>>> > simply
>>> > because I enjoy learning new things and building.
>>> >
>>> > Different strokes for different folks.
>>> >
>>> > Ed
>>> > Ed Anderson
>>> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>> > Matthews, NC
>>> > eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>>> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
>>> > To:
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
>>> >> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT
>>> >> etc.
>>> >> can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
>>> >> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt
>>> >> have
>>> >> anything better to do.
>>> >> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
>>> >> well........
>>> >>
>>> >> Randy
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
>>> >> To:
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi Sean,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
>>> >>> components to get started.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Ed
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Ed Anderson
>>> >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>> >>> Matthews, NC
>>> >>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>>> >>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>> >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>
>>> >>> To:
>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
>>> >>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics,
>>> >>>> etc.
>>> >>>> on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that
>>> >>>> would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -Sean
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
Sorry to stir up a debate.
This is purely for an educational experience on my part. I am in the
middle of down time from building the airframe due to a relocation, so
merely wanted to do some "experimenting" just to feed my brain.
I was just looking for some literature and maybe a less $$ option than
buying a commercial grade ADAHRS such as the xbow NAV420.
Thanks all,
-Sean (RV-10 40303 buildus interuptus)
Bill Boyd wrote:
>
>
> Okay, Ed. Want to tell us how you did it without a transducer?
>
> Minds that need examining want to know...
>
> -Stormy
>
> On 11/22/06, Ed Anderson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to
>> have an
>> > AHRS in your panel.
>> >
>> > But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur
>> build
>> > aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed and
>> built
>> > my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow transducer -
>> > yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased one - but, if I
>> > included even a modest value for my time - then the commercial one
>> would
>> > have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not just to build my
>> own, but
>> > to learn to design,build and program using microchips.
>> >
>> > I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator -
>> again,
>> > not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price - but
>> simply
>> > because I enjoy learning new things and building.
>> >
>> > Different strokes for different folks.
>> >
>> > Ed
>> > Ed Anderson
>> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>> > Matthews, NC
>> > eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
>> > To:
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM
>> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
>> >> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or
>> GRT etc.
>> >> can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
>> >> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just
>> does'nt have
>> >> anything better to do.
>> >> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
>> >> well........
>> >>
>> >> Randy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
>> >> To:
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Sean,
>> >>>
>> >>> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
>> >>>
>> >>> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
>> >>> components to get started.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ed
>> >>>
>> >>> Ed Anderson
>> >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>> >>> Matthews, NC
>> >>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>> >>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>> >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>
>> >>> To:
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
>> >>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics,
>> etc.
>> >>>> on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that
>> >>>> would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -Sean
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
Sean,
There used to be an experimental avionics list somewhere. You might check
the archives on Matt's Matronics Avionics list and see if there is still any
discussion of what you are interested in, or maybe a reference to a list
that does have it.
Terry
This is purely for an educational experience on my part. I am in the
middle of down time from building the airframe due to a relocation, so
merely wanted to do some "experimenting" just to feed my brain.
I was just looking for some literature and maybe a less $$ option than
buying a commercial grade ADAHRS such as the xbow NAV420.
Thanks all,
-Sean (RV-10 40303 buildus interuptus)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Flaked Regulator? |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> I have the same problem in my Bonanza, even with no load. At startup and low
revs, needle is
> steady at charge 20-30 amps. Within 30 seconds the "retriever syndrome" starts.
O/h the
> alternator and changed the regulator. No difference. Also can hear the wig/wag
in the headsets.
> Quite irritating. I notice the voltage fluctuation on my "gear up" light.
Go to the Zeftronics site. Read through the literature and troubleshooting
tips. Almost guaranteed that high resistance in the field circuit is biting your
butt. Throwing an ALT and REG at the problem wasn't the way do fix it.....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
Great things are being done now with MEMS, and at just a few dollars per
function.
David M.
Ed Anderson wrote:
>
>
>
>> Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to
>> have an AHRS in your panel.
>>
>> But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur
>> build aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed
>> and built my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow
>> transducer - yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased
>> one - but, if I included even a modest value for my time - then the
>> commercial one would have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not
>> just to build my own, but to learn to design,build and program using
>> microchips.
>>
>> I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator -
>> again, not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price -
>> but simply because I enjoy learning new things and building.
>>
>> Different strokes for different folks.
>>
>> Ed
>> Ed Anderson
>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>> Matthews, NC
>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "6440 Auto Parts"
>>
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I personally don't see the sense in spending
>>> $2000-$5000 building your own AHRS according to that website when a
>>> Dynon or GRT etc. can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and
>>> true.
>>> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt
>>> have anything better to do.
>>> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
>>> well........
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Anderson"
>>>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
>>>>
>>>> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
>>>> components to get started.
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>>
>>>> Ed Anderson
>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>>> Matthews, NC
>>>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Stephens"
>>>>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
>>>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics,
>>>>> etc. on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find
>>>>> anything that would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Sean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
I agree David,
The MEMS accelerometers and gyros certain are making very capable autopilots
possible at very reasonable prices. Hummm.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>
> Great things are being done now with MEMS, and at just a few dollars per
> function.
>
> David M.
>
>
> Ed Anderson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Your correct, Randy, assuming that the only objective/goal is to have
>>> an AHRS in your panel.
>>>
>>> But, some simply want to continue the "educational" goal of Amateur
>>> build aircraft by expanding into other associated areas. I designed and
>>> built my own EFI Fuel Monitoring System which uses no fuel flow
>>> transducer - yes, the parts were certainly cheaper than a purchased
>>> one - but, if I included even a modest value for my time - then the
>>> commercial one would have been cheaper {:>). But, the goal was not just
>>> to build my own, but to learn to design,build and program using
>>> microchips.
>>>
>>> I've just completed a design and prototype for an AOA indicator - again,
>>> not because one could not be purchased at a reasonable price - but
>>> simply because I enjoy learning new things and building.
>>>
>>> Different strokes for different folks.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>> Ed Anderson
>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>> Matthews, NC
>>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "6440 Auto Parts"
>>>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
>>>> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT
>>>> etc. can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
>>>> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt
>>>> have anything better to do.
>>>> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
>>>> well........
>>>>
>>>> Randy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Anderson"
>>>>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sean,
>>>>>
>>>>> Try out this URL http://www.aerospectra.com/efis/svis.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr Jim Hauser has a book worth getting on the basics as well as the
>>>>> components to get started.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed Anderson
>>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>>>> Matthews, NC
>>>>> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Stephens"
>>>>>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:04 PM
>>>>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been scouring Google trying to find literature, schematics, etc.
>>>>>> on building an AHRS/ADAHRS. I've been unable to find anything that
>>>>>> would get me jump-started on a homebrew project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If anyone has links that would help I'd appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Sean
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
| From: | flyadive(at)aol.com |
One more time!
There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can prove me
wrong.
OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations designed
to minimize the number of
grounds and risks for ground-loop noise."
Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there is NO SUCH
FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
Barry
Yes - I am still monitoring the list, if for no other purpose than to BUST MYTHS!
====================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24V 12V grounds
>I have a question and I'm in search of an answer. I have a 24V system with >a
24/12 volt 15A converter . Can the output ground of the converter (12V) >use the
same single point ground as the 24V, or is it necessary to supply >a second
dedicated ground point for the 12V ?
Tie them all together . . . preferably at carefully
crafted locations designed to minimize the number of
grounds and risks for ground-loop noise. See Figure
Z-15 in . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
There's NO SUCH thing as a DC CIRCUIT!!! Ahh.. There's the rub. :)
Regards,
Matt-
> One more time!
>
> There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
> If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can
> prove me wrong.
> OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations
> designed to minimize the number of
> grounds and risks for ground-loop noise."
> Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there is
> NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
> Barry
>
> Yes - I am still monitoring the list, if for no other purpose than to BUST
> MYTHS!
> ====================================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nuckollsr(at)cox.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24V 12V grounds
>
>
>
>
>
>>I have a question and I'm in search of an answer. I have a 24V system
>> with >a 24/12 volt 15A converter . Can the output ground of the converter
>> (12V) >use the same single point ground as the 24V, or is it necessary to
>> supply >a second dedicated ground point for the 12V ?
>
> Tie them all together . . . preferably at carefully
> crafted locations designed to minimize the number of
> grounds and risks for ground-loop noise. See Figure
> Z-15 in . . .
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
flyadive(at)aol.com wrote:
> One more time!
>
> There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
> If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can prove
me wrong.
> OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations designed
to minimize the number of
> grounds and risks for ground-loop noise."
> Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there is NO
SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
> Barry
>
> Yes - I am still monitoring the list, if for no other purpose than to BUST MYTHS!
> ====================================================
>
>
You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to.
I've always known a ground-loop as a situation where two devices share
an unsymmetrical supply or ground path. The arrangement is such that
the voltage across one device will fluctuate due to the operation of the
other.
+12V -------------------------------/----\-
/ \
/ \
Load 1 Load 2
/ \
GND-------/\/\/\/----------/------------/\/\/\/\/------\
I hope the ASCII art come through unscathed. Please use a monospaced
font for email.
If a high powered strobe were used as Load 1, it's operation would
present a residual voltage where it's wiring connected back into the
ground line when the light is turned on. This is caused by the fact
that all conductors have some resistance (represented by the squiggly
lines). The voltage goes away when the light is extinquished. This
would change the voltage perceived by Load 2 as the strobe flashes,
which would be a bad thing if it were an audio line, because then you'd
hear every flash.
It's called a ground-loop, because power lines tend to be pulled from a
central location, while local grounding is the norm. You may have a
different term for this, and use ground-loop to refer to a different
phenomena. Please share your point of view, but also be aware that I'm
an ignorant American who thinks that my English measurement system
serves me just fine, so I'm unlikely to change terminology this week.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nuckollsr(at)cox.net
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24V 12V grounds
>
>
>
>
>
>> I have a question and I'm in search of an answer. I have a 24V system with >a
24/12 volt 15A converter . Can the output ground of the converter (12V) >use
the same single point ground as the 24V, or is it necessary to supply >a second
dedicated ground point for the 12V ?
>>
>
> Tie them all together . . . preferably at carefully
> crafted locations designed to minimize the number of
> grounds and risks for ground-loop noise. See Figure
> Z-15 in . . .
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
>One more time!
>
>There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
>If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can
>prove me wrong.
>OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations
>designed to minimize the number of
> grounds and risks for ground-loop noise."
>Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there is
>NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
>Barry
>
I don't need to hypothesize about one because there are countless
examples of DC ground loops and the techniques developed to avoid them.
All of our temperature measurement devices aboard an airplane used
dedicated outbound and return wires so that both signal and ground
leads can convey good data to the system having and interest
in remote temperatures. To ground the sensor locally would inject
voltages not related to the measurement task which are related
to airframe resistance combined with ground currents of other systems
that flow on the airframe.
Very early on in my association with the OBAM aircraft community
I got a phone call from a Longez pilot who reported that his
CHT, OIL TEMP and OIL Pressure gages read just fine with the
alternator off . . . but differed wildly from true readings
when the alternator was first turned on and then wiggled around
as other accessories were turned on and off. This anecdote
is described on pages 5-5 and 5-6 of the 'Connection. Seems
the senders for these instruments were locally grounded to
crankcase while the instruments were grounded to battery(-)
at the nose. The airplane didn't have a starter so the 10AWG
ground wire the builder ran from battery(-) to crankcase
was sufficient for alternator return . . . but offered a substantial
voltage difference between crankcase and battery(-) due to alternator
output currents flowing in the wire.
This small voltage in a DC GROUND LOOP was responsible for
upsetting the ship's engine instruments. Adding a dedicated
ground wire for instruments that returned all the way to the
crankcase broke the loop and eliminated the problem.
Starter generator controllers on all our bizjets feature
remote sense conductors for both bus and ground signals
that are extended from the controller all the way to
to generator's terminals under the nacelle. The use of
remote as opposed to local sensing for both bus and ground
eliminates any errors of measurement that might be introduced
by currents flowing on the airframe. We do this to avoid
the DC GROUND LOOP that would most certainly exist were
the practice not observed.
These are but a handful of dozens of examples of DC
Ground Loops that we choose to avoid by judicious architecture
of vulnerable systems.
>Yes - I am still monitoring the list, if for no other purpose than to BUST
>MYTHS!
I don't know what you would choose to call the system
design errors that would introduce the problems cited
above. Perhaps we have a misunderstanding of definitions.
The venue in which I've made my living all these years
calls these phenomenon "ground loops" and because they're
DC signals being upset by DC currents flowing on the
airframe, we call them DC GROUND LOOPS. Do you have
another name for them?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson(at)showmeproductions.com> |
I was the President of Blue Mountain Avionics for about 15 months and I can
confirm the h/w parts of an AHRS system are not very extensive. However,
the required software engineering skills and experience with this type of
technology are considerable if you want the AHRS to work well under the
conditions we might encounter in flight. I have two Crossbow AHRS 425's
which still do not work correctly. Crossbow claims the latest update fixes
things others have told me not so. They have been fixing problems with the
425 for over a year!
What kind would you build - basic AHRS - a GPS aided AHRS - a GPS and Air
Data aided AHRS?
I know BMA and others continue to make refinements to their AHRS software -
rarely do they need to change or update the hardware. I would not advise a
home built approach to this critical part of your aircraft.
Malcolm.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS?
-->
>
>
> I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000
> building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT etc.
> can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true.
> Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt
> have anything better to do.
> But of course time permitting one could be built cheap
well........
Depends on the goal. I'm presently trying to sell
some MBA types on the value of IR&D with an emphasis
on the "I".
Should you wish to understand and make utility of
the ingredients needed to accomplish a task, you need
to start with the simple-ideas. The task is to explore
how they perform and the elegant ways they may be
assembled into useful products.
If someone expresses a desire to "build" something,
it's not uncommon for folk to counsel against the
activity for a variety of reasons not the least of
which is a perceived re-invention of some wheel.
Randy has suggested that he might build one "cheap".
I CAN advise that for the majority of cases, tasks
of this nature may be emulated but unless your time
has zero value, it's never cheap. While the hardware
IS readily available and inexpensive, an AHRS system
designed around rate sensors is exceedingly software
intensive. Launching a new project of this type without
the support of a cadre' of smart people (knowledgeable
and experienced) is risky . . . especially if you
plan to poke your airplane into clouds.
The task is much more than buying some parts and
wiring them together. You need a working knowledge
of crafting flight stabilization software. You also
need a means for testing it without risking life, limb
or airplane. We used to do a lot of this work at RAC
Missiles and had hardware-in-the-loop simulation for
testing.
So before we can advise Randy well, we need to
know what his plan is. The starting point is today
and the end point is (????). What is it you wish
to achieve Randy? Be aware too that the successful
ventures of this type are never "cheap."
Bob . . .
--
6:48 AM
--
6:48 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael" <cfi(at)conwaycorp.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaked Regulator? |
Thanks for the suggestion Deems. The needle continuously cycles back
and forth about 2 times a second. It does not cycle in sequence with
the rotating beacon and turning things off does not change it. Jim
Baker sent a good link from Zeftronics. Zeft suggests checking the
connections between the alternator Bat terminal and the pin input to the
controller for high resistance, corrosion, dirt, loose or intermittent
connection. I'm going to check that out next time the cowling is off.
Michael H.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Paul's article on modifying ND and MI alternators |
| From: | "Wingrider" <rwhitt3(at)hotmail.com> |
paulm(at)olypen.com wrote:
> Thanks; I will be updating the article as a PDF with current info and part
> numbers etc as needed. Need a couple of weeks to complete but it will not be
> limited to the mag article for photo size and resolution etc.
>
> Paul
>
> ---
Paul I was wondering if you have updated this article and if I can get a copy of
it? If not do you know where I can download the original?
Thanks
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76518#76518
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <frank.phyllis(at)mindspring.com> |
Thanks for your note, Bob.
I rechecked my connections (again) and now it works like a champ--just
as you described.
FYI, the described charger below does work with the circuit.
Hope you're Thanksgiving is a blessed one.
Frank McD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grnd Pwr Jack
>
>Not sure I've properly installed the Ground Power Jack per the diagram
>from Bob. I'm wondering if I have the circuit breaker switch properly
>connected--which terminal goes to the ground ("Line" or "Load") & which
>goes to the contactor?
>When I connect power to the plug the test light comes on, regardless of
>which position the circuit breaker switch is in. Is this what's
>supposed to happen? I am thinking that I should be able to test the
>ground pwr contactor to see if it's closed by testing the voltage
across
>the terminals but I don't get the voltage I expect (~ 12 v?). I'm
using
>a Schumacher Model WM-1562A "Fully Automatic Battery
Charger/Maintainer"
>(1.5 amp slow charge)when I test the system.
There are several ground power wiring options in the
literature I've published. Since you speak of a light
then I presume you're referring to the drawing shown
in . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
The symptoms you describe suggest that the light
fixture is wired wrong. There are three terminals
on the back that must be wired as depicted or
you'll get unpredictable behavior which includes
the symptoms you've described.
I don't think the WM1562 charger is appropriate to
simulate a ground power source. This charger is of
limited output current . . . about 1 amp as I recall
and the ground power contactor needs about 0.7 of
the total. It MIGHT work but without trying it
or doing more detailed analysis of the charger's
expected behavior, I cannot predict.
When you connect a ground power source (try a battery
with a 10A fuse in the line), the indicator lamp should
be dark as long as the breaker-switch is open. Pressing
the fixture should produce a light showing that ground
power is applied and that the lamp is good. Closing
the breaker should also cause the contactor to close.
This will happen with a audible "thunk". The light
will come on also showing that ground power is now
applied to ship's wiring.
A reversed ground power source will cause the switch
breaker to open immediately after you try to close it.
Likewise, if you've installed the over voltage protection
option, applying 24v to a 12v airplane will also cause the
switch=breaker to open.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Thanks for your note, Bob.
>I rechecked my connections (again) and now it works like a champ--just
>as you described.
I'm pleased that the solution was simple.
>FYI, the described charger below does work with the circuit.
Good data point. Thanks! I have a couple of those
on the shelf for use in the shop but I've never
explored their behavior as utility power sources.
I did explore their behavior as battery chargers
and posted the data at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_4.jpg
These curves confirm the manner in which these devices
"top off" a battery and then drop to support terminal
voltage a some point well below charging potentials but
high enough to make the charger assume the loads of all
leakage currents.
>Hope you're Thanksgiving is a blessed one.
Thank you sir! I'm off to Medicine Lodge to pick
up my hospitalized father for transport out to Uncle
George and Aunt Sally's for the day over in Leon, KS.
We're expecting 40 folks to show up and the weather is
clear, relatively calm and 70 degrees. All in all, the
prospects for a great day are in place.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> One more time!
>
> There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
November 14, 2006 - November 23, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gi