AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gj
November 23, 2006 - December 04, 2006
>
> If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can prove
me wrong.
> OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations designed
to minimize the number of
> grounds and risks for ground-loop noise."
> Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there is NO SUCH
FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
>
> Barry
Barry is absolutely correct.
Unfortunately, we don't use real grounds in real things. Theoretically-real grounds
are hard to carry around since they weigh...oh let's see....INFINITE. Your
fuel economy would be terrible.
So we use "ground" as slang to indicate where all the (usually) negative conductors
are connected (mostly). It is perfectly possible to have no DC ground in
an airplane, and in fact, composite airplanes just use a second conductor to borrow
those little electrons from the battery.
The problems occur when we share conductors (AC, DC, Negative, Positive, or jumping-around-a-lot),
because then old Devil Mr. Ohm demands his due.
PS: A DC circuit is only DC if it sits perfectly still. If you turn it ON or OFF
it is AC if only for an instant. Managing that instant is the whole career of
some engineers.
Hope this helps.
"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem...."
-Thomas Szasz
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76530#76530
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it
seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me....
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Bill B
*Subject:* */Z-19 questions/*
*From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry(at)allvantage.com/
)*
*Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/*
*Bob, and others,
I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow
the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the
engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and
secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors
off of the battery buss.
How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output
and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bill B
*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Ampmeter reading |
Bob et all
I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is
installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru
engine) to my Exp Bus board.
I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by the
alternator, obviously with the engine running.
But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying),
the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to
8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly.
Why am I geting this kind of reading?
Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank(at)core.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ampmeter reading |
Carlos,
Depends on what your looking for . If you want to know the current
being produced by the alternator you have it in the right place and
the readings might be right. If you want to know is my battery being
charged or discharged you should put it in series with the lead from
the battery that goes to everything except the starter. In this location
you will know if you are in a sustainable condition. An alternator can
be putting out it rated current but if your aircraft is consuming more
than that you have a limited amount of airtime.
Tim Shankland
Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Bob et all
>
> I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is
> installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru
> engine) to my Exp Bus board.
> I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by
> the alternator, obviously with the engine running.
> But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying),
> the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to
> 8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly.
> Why am I geting this kind of reading?
> Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud?
>
> Carlos
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
| From: | "Bill McMullen" <CircleM(at)telusplanet.net> |
I'm currently wiring an A200 and like many others I thought I'd cross-check the very basic installation instructions that were provided. I've downloaded and looked at the http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf document, but that actually raised a bigger question. Maybe I just need another jolt of caffeine, but ...
The ICOM document shows the Molex connector from the front rather than the rear
wire entry side. The .pdf document shows the connector from the wire entry side
(i.e. rear), BUT ... the pin numbers and letters are in the exact same order
as the ICOM front view. The physical connector shows the expected reversed
order.
Can anyone who's wired and tested one of these confirm the orientation for me?
i.e. Power / ground wires on the left or right when viewed from the rear.
Thanks in advance.
P.S. Many thanks to Bob for his efforts and willingness to share his knowledge
... it is appreciated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76568#76568
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
Bill,
Check the molex connector for the neutral key for finding the proper
side. 1 thru 8 and A thru H begin the first half of the connector
and A has no connector at all. The opposite side only has 7 spaces, so
orientation and placement of the wires should be evident by checking the
radio and connectors.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Bill McMullen wrote:
>
> I'm currently wiring an A200 and like many others I thought I'd cross-check the very basic installation instructions that were provided. I've downloaded and looked at the http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf document, but that actually raised a bigger question. Maybe I just need another jolt of caffeine, but ...
>
> The ICOM document shows the Molex connector from the front rather than the rear
wire entry side. The .pdf document shows the connector from the wire entry
side (i.e. rear), BUT ... the pin numbers and letters are in the exact same order
as the ICOM front view. The physical connector shows the expected reversed
order.
>
> Can anyone who's wired and tested one of these confirm the orientation for me?
i.e. Power / ground wires on the left or right when viewed from the rear.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> P.S. Many thanks to Bob for his efforts and willingness to share his knowledge
... it is appreciated.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76568#76568
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
| From: | "Bill McMullen" <CircleM(at)telusplanet.net> |
Thanks Larry.
I think I was just being over cautious ... I'm doing this from scratch and first
had to insert the polarizing key into my blank Molex connector. It does match
the radio and I've looked at the PCB traces to verify the obvious ground connections.
Your post made me look at it again and I still think I've done it
properly such that the wiring will match the markings on the connector.
In essence, I guess my post was a round about way of saying that I think the .PDF
drawing has an error in it's connector pictorial. I hate the smell of expensive
smoke and also hope that no one else makes a mistake.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76591#76591
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "S. Ramirez" <simon(at)synchronousdesign.com> |
Mofo,
I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost money,
and here it is in PDF on the fucking internet.
I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning.
Thanks a bunch.
Simon Ramirez, Consultant
Synchronous Design, Inc.
Oviedo, FL 32765 USA
407-365-8928: home/office
407-221-8928: mobile
Xilinx Alliance Partner
Copyright C 2006
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions
-->
I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it
seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me....
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Bill B
*Subject:* */Z-19 questions/*
*From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry(at)allvantage.com/
)*
*Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/*
*Bob, and others,
I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow
the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the
engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and
secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors
off of the battery buss.
How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output
and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bill B
*
--
5:41 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Riggs <riggs_la(at)yahoo.com> |
That one is and old version.
Mofo,
I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost money,
and here it is in PDF on the fucking internet.
I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning.
Thanks a bunch.
Simon Ramirez, Consultant
Synchronous Design, Inc.
Oviedo, FL 32765 USA
407-365-8928: home/office
407-221-8928: mobile
Xilinx Alliance Partner
Copyright C 2006
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions
-->
I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it
seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me....
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Bill B
*Subject:* */Z-19 questions/*
*From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry(at)allvantage.com/
49E28.9030501(at)allvantage.com>)*
*Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/*
*Bob, and others,
I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow
the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the
engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and
secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors
off of the battery buss.
How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output
and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bill B
*
--
5:41 PM
Lynn A. Riggs
riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
St. Paul, MN
BH #656 Kit #22
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
Simon Ramirez,
Please refrain from the offensive language. It is not appropriate for this
list exchange.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "S. Ramirez" <simon(at)synchronousdesign.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions
>
>
> Mofo,
>
> I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost
> money,
> and here it is in PDF on the ******* internet.
>
> I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning.
>
> Thanks a bunch.
>
> Simon Ramirez, Consultant
> Synchronous Design, Inc.
> Oviedo, FL 32765 USA
> 407-365-8928: home/office
> 407-221-8928: mobile
> Xilinx Alliance Partner
>
> Copyright C 2006
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
> Bradburry
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions
>
> -->
>
> I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it
> seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me....
> Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
>
> Bill B
>
> *Subject:* */Z-19 questions/*
> *From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry(at)allvantage.com/
> 49E28.9030501(at)allvantage.com>)*
>
> *Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/*
>
> *Bob, and others,
> I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to
> follow
>
> the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at
> the
>
> engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and
> secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors
> off of the battery buss.
> How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode
> output
>
> and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
> What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
> for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
> I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
> Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
> Bill B
> *
>
>
> --
> 5:41 PM
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "S. Ramirez" <simon(at)synchronousdesign.com> |
I apologize to everyone on this list for the previous offensive email that I
accidentally posted. I thought I was responding to another email from a
personal friend, unrelated to the email that you saw below mine. I goofed
big time. Please accept my apologies, and it will not happen again. I
contacted Bob N. about what to do, but decided to post an apology
nonetheless.
I also apologize personally to Bill Bradburry, who had nothing to do with
the email.
Simon Ramirez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
>
>
> > One more time!
> >
> > There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
> >
> > If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can
> prove me wrong.
> > OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations
> designed to minimize the number of
> > grounds and risks for ground-loop noise."
> > Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there
> is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit.
> >
> > Barry
>
>
>Barry is absolutely correct.
>
>Unfortunately, we don't use real grounds in real things.
>Theoretically-real grounds are hard to carry around since they weigh...oh
>let's see....INFINITE. Your fuel economy would be terrible.
>
>So we use "ground" as slang to indicate where all the (usually) negative
>conductors are connected (mostly). It is perfectly possible to have no DC
>ground in an airplane, and in fact, composite airplanes just use a second
>conductor to borrow those little electrons from the battery.
>
>The problems occur when we share conductors (AC, DC, Negative, Positive,
>or jumping-around-a-lot), because then old Devil Mr. Ohm demands his due.
>
>PS: A DC circuit is only DC if it sits perfectly still. If you turn it ON
>or OFF it is AC if only for an instant. Managing that instant is the whole
>career of some engineers.
>
>Hope this helps.
Golly gee Eric. Talk about slicing and dicing the dictionary.
An alternating current system is one that changes polarity,
I.e. like positive for 1/2 cycle and reverses for another
half cycle. I.e., it ALTERNATES. Stating that DC becomes
something other than DC just because it is dynamic suggests
a vernacular from another planet.
Okay folks. Where Eric (and I presume Barry) lives. Any
DC system that is not absolutely rock stable is no longer
a DC system but . . . what? Oh yes, at what point do you
draw the line on stability sir? 1-volt "wiggles"? 1-millivolt
wiggles . . . how about microvolt wiggles? Taking this notion
to the molecular extreme, one might say that, "There is no such
thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some
"wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry
jump from ion to ion.
My teachers would disagree with your definitions sir as
do I. For the purposes of common language and understanding
here on the List and just so we're all on the same page, let
us stipulate: That (1) alternating current power distribution systems
are likened to that which comes out of your wall sockets and
(2) direct current power distribution systems are likened to that
which runs our automobiles. Further, DC systems that are less
than stable are still DC systems with distortion (noise). AC systems
suffer distortions too (mini-brownouts, switching transients and yes,
the effects of GROUND LOOPS). To argue differently may impress the
neophyte but it borders on bizarre in the venue where I work.
>"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
> injury to one's self-esteem...."
-Thomas Szasz
What a bummer idea! I'll suggest a alternative:
"Every act of conscious learning requires a willingness to
seek out and understand the simple-ideas (fundamentals)
for the systems of interest. One's self-esteem is enhanced
by the ability to use those simple-ideas in ways that
are useful. One's self-esteem is really bolstered when
CUSTOMERS are willing to support your livelihood by
PURCHASING inventions you SUPPLY based on your understanding
of those fundamentals."
-Bob Nuckolls
I've read some of Szasz's work. He posits some interesting
and even attractive ideas but he's obviously not grounded
in reality. For example. He suggests, "abolition of involuntary
hospitalization: No one should be deprived of liberty unless
he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person
of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral.
Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse
treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric
treatment."
I've had a lifetime experience with a mother who has suffered
from paranoid schizophrenia since her teens. I've witnessed
a virtual miracle of productive integration into family
and society when interventions were working along with her
suffering in a 24/7 living hell of nightmares when she
decided she was cured and dumped her protocols. Szasz speaks
a language attractive to amoral passivists but as your
chosen quotation illustrates, he does not philosophize in
simple-ideas. May I suggest more forward-looking philosophers
who have demonstrated the value of their philosophies for
living many times over? Try Charles Kettering, Ayn Rand,
Virgil Elings, just to name a few. These folks do not wallow
in self-deprecating ideas and nostrums for living. Not
one bummer quote from the lot!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
Simon,
You have done all that is necessary and expected. Our
society is replete with individuals who, when indulging
in a dishonorable activity, will hat-dance around the
the event rather than accept responsibility and offer
restitution.
Your willingness to step up to the bar and set things
right is as much as any of us can ask. We're all sorry
it happened but in light of your subsequent behavior,
I'll suggest it's an event unworthy of further attention.
I'm perfectly willing to move on from here without
prejudice. I'll ask others on the list to join me.
Bob . . .
>
>
>I apologize to everyone on this list for the previous offensive email that I
>accidentally posted. I thought I was responding to another email from a
>personal friend, unrelated to the email that you saw below mine. I goofed
>big time. Please accept my apologies, and it will not happen again. I
>contacted Bob N. about what to do, but decided to post an apology
>nonetheless.
>
>I also apologize personally to Bill Bradburry, who had nothing to do with
>the email.
>
>Simon Ramirez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D10-a check lists and POH |
Ken,
Please send what you have on hand there.
Do you need any contact information?
Thanks,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Harrill" <kharrill(at)osa.state.sc.us>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: D10-a check lists and POH
>
>
> Jim,
>
> I have one for my RV-6, 180 hp, C/S that I will be glad to send you. I
> can't attach it to this message because it does not have an acceptable
> file extension.
>
> Ken Harrill
> ken.harrill(at)columbia.sc
>
> --------
> Ken Harrill
> RV-6
> Columiba, SC
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76415#76415
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | More Great List Comments - Please Make A Contribution! |
Dear Listers,
There's a little less than one week left for this year's List Fund Raiser. I thought
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Don't forget that once you make your Contribution, the Contribution Squelch kicks
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Please make your Contribution today to support these List services! Pick up a
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
============================= WLAS #2 ============================
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============================= WLAS #2 ============================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
No such thing as over-cautious.
You are correct that the pinout on the .pdf file is wrong.
You are also correct that the pinout letters and numbers are embossed on the
connector. With a pair of +1.25 Diopter "cheater" from Walgreen's and a good
bright light, I can just barely read them.
Go with the IC-A200 "Installation Instructions". They work well.
Rodney in Tennessee
PS, mine never had a Polarizing Key. Still works fine.
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
Is this what our friendly discussion group has come to
John
"S. Ramirez" wrote:
Mofo,
I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost
money,
and here it is in PDF on the fucking internet.
I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning.
Thanks a bunch.
Simon Ramirez, Consultant
Synchronous Design, Inc.
Oviedo, FL 32765 USA
407-365-8928: home/office
407-221-8928: mobile
Xilinx Alliance Partner
Copyright C 2006
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bill
Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions
-->
I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that
it
seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me....
Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Bill B
*Subject:* */Z-19 questions/*
*From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry(at)allvantage.com/
49E28.9030501(at)allvantage.com>)*
*Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/*
*Bob, and others,
I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to
follow
the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at
the
engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary
and
secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: 24V 12V grounds |
In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:31:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:
"There is no such
thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some
"wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry
jump from ion to ion.
===========================================
Hi Bob:
I do live on my own planet, but unfortunately I have to share it; I would
even accept a planetoid.
GREAT statement above Bob. That is what I learned also. We must have read
the same books at one time or another.
But, why in your GROUND explaination/seranio (your post explaining ground
loops) did you pick thermocouples and group them under the DC Ground umbrella?
If you recall thermocouples when first produced were done so as a floating
(non-grounded) device. And in many cases as a non-shieled device. This led to
may erroneous reading on the gages ESPECIALLY when digital read-outs with low
voltage sensing circuits came into play. So the method of correcting and
stabilizing became a GROUNDED thermocouple. But, in this case you are talking
Fruit Salad ... You know ... Apples & Oranges. They are close, but throwing them
into the same bowl, I feel does not truly explain the issue. I think it is
only confusing to many out there. Too much Tech-Know-Babble, sounding too much
like Professor Irwin Cory.
The topic is DC GROUNDS. And you know me I keep things SIMPLE ... K.I.S.S.
M.E. SIMPLE.
And for those that just might still be interested in the basics and how to
eliminate about 98% of your electronical issues and NOISE issues here is the
short version of the basics:
GROUND at the SOURCE (Alternators, Batteries, Avionics and the like).
CLEAN YOUR GROUNDS
ADD MORE GROUNDS to DC Circuits - Battery to Engine, Battery to Firewall,
Firewall (after additional grounds have been added) to Panel and YES I strongly
believe in a nice heavy gage Ground Terminal Block. Or at least a Brass Nut &
Bolt.
[I believe my above statement is what started this debate - MORE Grounds do
HELP]
DC Circuits Ground at BOTH ENDS
AF (Audio Frequencies) Ground ONLY at the Source
RF (Radio Frequencies) Ground at BOTH ends
Crazy thing here ... Alternators produce BOTH AF & RF, so what do you do?
GROUND at BOTH Ends. YES! GROUND!
After you do the grounding THEN you can start playing with Inductors &
Capacitors and Transient Suppressors.
This is the short list. I very seldom need to do more than that to prevent or
remove a problem.
Barry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot heater - current sensor |
Bob,
Say - I noticed diagram PitotHeat.pdf on your website...
This seems like a slick low cost way to know if your pitot heater is
actually drawing current.
Could I also use this for a fuel boost pump?
Do you have a picture of a finished unit and how you would wrap the wire
around it, heat shrink, etc?
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Verwey" <bonanza(at)vodamail.co.za> |
Hey listers,
I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit, but
still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
| From: | "Bill McMullen" <CircleM(at)telusplanet.net> |
Rodney : Thanks for the re-inforcement that I'm really not going crazy as the grey
hairs start increasing. I only wish I could get away with just +1.25 cheaters
to see these markings ... they're some of the hardest ones to read.
I sincerely hope Bob sees this and updates his diagram. It's a great expansion
on a very poor installation manual but my biggest concern is that someone goes
with it's pinout diagram rather than getting out their magnifying glass and
looking at the physical connector. I am surprised that no one else has noted
and commented on this discrepency.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76759#76759
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
On 24-Nov-06, at 10:44 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
> Hey listers,
> I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a
> bit, but still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
>
> Bob Verwey
> A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
Do you need an installation for a type-certificated aircraft, or
amateur-built? What capabilities do you want? Wing leveler only?
Heading select? Altitude hold? Airspeed hold? Vertical speed
hold? Altitude preselect? Coupled ILS? Coupled GPS? Coupled
approach VNAV?
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Ampmeter reading |
Since I only got 1 answer (thanks Tim), here it goes again:
Bob et all
I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is
installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru
engine) to my Exp Bus board.
I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by the
alternator, obviously with the engine running.
But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying),
the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to
8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly.
Why am I geting this kind of reading?
Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | travelliing to Ottawa |
I will be visiting in the Ottawa area from this coming Thursday Nov. 30
until Dec 9.
I will have time to sight see and visit in and around the Ottawa area.
If any aircraft homebuilders want to share and compare notes and pictures,
coffee, etc. please advise as to contact information.
Thanks,
Jim in Kelowna - Finished RV6-A waiting for the paperwork to be returned
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ampmeter reading |
Carlos
I don't think there are many Exp bus user's here but I would consider
this abnormal unless you have a flashing beacon or something that is
intermittantly drawing current. Does the voltage fluctuate? My hall
current sensor is quite steady on my EIS monitor with my Subaru. I do
have strobes. The current pulses to the injectors and ignition do vary
by several amps but that happens much too quickly for current sensors or
voltmeters to register anything other than a steady average current.
Ammeters just aren't fast enough to register those pulses. There are
some posts in the archives about fluctuating ammeters that might assist you.
Ken
Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Since I only got 1 answer (thanks Tim), here it goes again:
>
> Bob et all
>
> I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is
> installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru
> engine) to my Exp Bus board.
> I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by
> the alternator, obviously with the engine running.
> But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying),
> the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to
> 8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly.
> Why am I geting this kind of reading?
> Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud?
>
> Carlos
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: To ground loop . . . or not, that IS the question. |
>In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:31:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:
>"There is no such
> thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some
> "wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry
> jump from ion to ion.
>
>===========================================
>Hi Bob:
>
>I do live on my own planet, but unfortunately I have to share it; I would
>even accept a planetoid.
>
>GREAT statement above Bob. That is what I learned also. We must have
>read the same books at one time or another.
Then you agree with Eric's assertion that once a DC
system "wiggles" that it has now morphed into an AC
system?
>
>But, why in your GROUND explaination/seranio (your post explaining ground
>loops) did you pick thermocouples and group them under the DC Ground
>umbrella?
>If you recall thermocouples when first produced were done so as a floating
>(non-grounded) device. And in many cases as a non-shieled device. This
>led to may erroneous reading on the gages ESPECIALLY when digital
>read-outs with low voltage sensing circuits came into play. So the method
>of correcting and stabilizing became a GROUNDED thermocouple.
Yup, you do live on a different planet. I've never had to
shield a thermocouple. Digital instruments intended to
read thermocouple voltages came with specifications as
to what kind and amount of common mode voltages they would
tolerate. I've worked with all of them. If one understands
the performance and limits of the hardware at hand, one
may expect reliable results.
So, assuming you're using equipment that is NOT tolerant
of whatever common mode noises are present and assuming further
that you DO ground the thermocouple at the sense end and
your measurement equipment is also grounded at some other
point in the system, then yes . . . one should not be surprised
that the GROUND LOOP so generated produces poor results.
> But, in this case you are talking Fruit Salad ... You know ... Apples &
> Oranges. They are close, but throwing them into the same bowl, I feel
> does not truly explain the issue. I think it is only confusing to many
> out there. Too much Tech-Know-Babble, sounding too much like Professor
> Irwin Cory.
Okay, how about use of remote sensing in power generation
control systems . . . or the case I cited where we fixed
an instrumentation interference problem by making eliminating
a ground loop in the airplane's DC power sysrem?
>The topic is DC GROUNDS. And you know me I keep things SIMPLE ...
>K.I.S.S. M.E. SIMPLE.
>And for those that just might still be interested in the basics and how to
>eliminate about 98% of your electronical issues and NOISE issues here is
>the short version of the basics:
>GROUND at the SOURCE (Alternators, Batteries, Avionics and the like).
>CLEAN YOUR GROUNDS
>ADD MORE GROUNDS to DC Circuits - Battery to Engine, Battery to Firewall,
>Firewall (after additional grounds have been added) to Panel and YES I
>strongly believe in a nice heavy gage Ground Terminal Block. Or at least
>a Brass Nut & Bolt.
>[I believe my above statement is what started this debate - MORE Grounds
>do HELP]
No, you said:
"There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit."
>AC Circuits Ground at BOTH ENDS
>AF (Audio Frequencies) Ground ONLY at the Source
>RF (Radio Frequencies) Ground at BOTH ends
>Crazy thing here ... Alternators produce BOTH AF & RF, so what do you
>do? GROUND at BOTH Ends. YES! GROUND!
>After you do the grounding THEN you can start playing with Inductors &
>Capacitors and Transient Suppressors.
>
>This is the short list. I very seldom need to do more than that to prevent
>or remove a problem.
Now that's an illuminating dissertation. If it's "babble"
one is striving for, you've achieved it. I'm sure every new
builder on the List now knows exactly what you're describing but
the fact that you're finding issue with my words suggests that
that chapters on grounding, noise combined with architecture drawings
in appendix Z in the 'Connection are are now in doubt. Barry, I just don't
have the time or energy to discuss this with you. If you have
a goal of being helpful, it's just not coming through.
Tell you what. Write up a critical review of the work you find
in the 'Connection. Be specific. Use clear words and syntax that
brings to light anything I've written that leads anyone astray. If you
want to be a teacher in this venue, you'll have to act like one.
Ship me the document and I'll publish it on the website.
Here's an example of the format:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html
You've demeaned my honor and my intelligence. Now back it
up with simple-ideas and illuminating anecdotes from your
experience. But if all you're going to do is sit on the
edge and throw in mud balls, then go away. You're not
entertaining or helpful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: To ground loop . . . or not, that IS the question. |
>In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:31:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:
>"There is no such
> thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some
> "wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry
> jump from ion to ion.
>
>===========================================
>Hi Bob:
>
>I do live on my own planet, but unfortunately I have to share it; I would
>even accept a planetoid.
>
>GREAT statement above Bob. That is what I learned also. We must have
>read the same books at one time or another.
Then you agree with Eric's assertion that once a DC
system "wiggles" that it has now morphed into an AC
system?
>
>But, why in your GROUND explaination/seranio (your post explaining ground
>loops) did you pick thermocouples and group them under the DC Ground
>umbrella?
>If you recall thermocouples when first produced were done so as a floating
>(non-grounded) device. And in many cases as a non-shieled device. This
>led to may erroneous reading on the gages ESPECIALLY when digital
>read-outs with low voltage sensing circuits came into play. So the method
>of correcting and stabilizing became a GROUNDED thermocouple.
Yup, you do live on a different planet. I've never had to
shield a thermocouple. Digital instruments intended to
read thermocouple voltages came with specifications as
to what kind and amount of common mode voltages they would
tolerate. I've worked with all of them. If one understands
the performance and limits of the hardware at hand, one
may expect reliable results.
So, assuming you're using equipment that is NOT tolerant
of whatever common mode noises are present and assuming further
that you DO ground the thermocouple at the sense end and
your measurement equipment is also grounded at some other
point in the system, then yes . . . one should not be surprised
that the GROUND LOOP so generated produces poor results.
> But, in this case you are talking Fruit Salad ... You know ... Apples &
> Oranges. They are close, but throwing them into the same bowl, I feel
> does not truly explain the issue. I think it is only confusing to many
> out there. Too much Tech-Know-Babble, sounding too much like Professor
> Irwin Cory.
Okay, how about use of remote sensing in power generation
control systems . . . or the case I cited where we fixed
an instrumentation interference problem by making eliminating
a ground loop in the airplane's DC power sysrem?
>The topic is DC GROUNDS. And you know me I keep things SIMPLE ...
>K.I.S.S. M.E. SIMPLE.
>And for those that just might still be interested in the basics and how to
>eliminate about 98% of your electronical issues and NOISE issues here is
>the short version of the basics:
>GROUND at the SOURCE (Alternators, Batteries, Avionics and the like).
>CLEAN YOUR GROUNDS
>ADD MORE GROUNDS to DC Circuits - Battery to Engine, Battery to Firewall,
>Firewall (after additional grounds have been added) to Panel and YES I
>strongly believe in a nice heavy gage Ground Terminal Block. Or at least
>a Brass Nut & Bolt.
>[I believe my above statement is what started this debate - MORE Grounds
>do HELP]
No, you said:
"There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit."
>AC Circuits Ground at BOTH ENDS
>AF (Audio Frequencies) Ground ONLY at the Source
>RF (Radio Frequencies) Ground at BOTH ends
>Crazy thing here ... Alternators produce BOTH AF & RF, so what do you
>do? GROUND at BOTH Ends. YES! GROUND!
>After you do the grounding THEN you can start playing with Inductors &
>Capacitors and Transient Suppressors.
>
>This is the short list. I very seldom need to do more than that to prevent
>or remove a problem.
Now that's an illuminating dissertation. If it's "babble"
one is striving for, you've achieved it. I'm sure every new
builder on the List now knows exactly what you're describing but
the fact that you're finding issue with my words suggests that
that chapters on grounding, noise combined with architecture drawings
in appendix Z in the 'Connection are are now in doubt. Barry, I just don't
have the time or energy to discuss this with you. If you have
a goal of being helpful, it's just not coming through.
Tell you what. Write up a critical review of the work you find
in the 'Connection. Be specific. Use clear words and syntax that
brings to light anything I've written that leads anyone astray. If you
want to be a teacher in this venue, you'll have to act like one.
Ship me the document and I'll publish it on the website.
Here's an example of the format:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html
You've demeaned my honor and my intelligence. Now back it
up with simple-ideas and illuminating anecdotes from your
experience. But if all you're going to do is sit on the
edge and throw in mud balls, then go away. You're not
entertaining or helpful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-19 questions |
>Is this what our friendly discussion group has come to
>
>John
You're a day late and a dollar short my friend. This VERY
friendly discussion group has not "come to anything"
as a result of the note you've cited. Furthermore,
the whole matter was put to rest hours ago.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob,
>
>Thank you for publishing your most welcomed letter of forgiveness. It means
>a lot to me, especially coming from a man whom I admire in many ways. You
>don't know me well, because I am a recent newcomer (within a year) and
>mostly lurker. I am not in the wire system planning phase of my homebuilt
>project yet, so I choose to stay mostly quiet until I stick my foot in my
>mouth. :)
You are not alone sir. Matt tells me there are over 1300
folks subscribed to this list and obviously, the vast majority
must find value in watching the conversations go by else they
would simply unsubscribe.
Be silent or participate as the need suits you but please
don't hesitate to jump in for clarification or expansion
of an idea that seems to have relevance to your plans
or understanding.
>I do have one favor to ask of you before I go. Since my original email as
>well as two respondents' emails have both the offensive language AND my
>business information in the salutation, may I ask of you to go into whatever
>mechanism you have to un-archive them? It reflects badly on my associated
>partner company, Xilinx, and un-archiving would be greatly appreciated here.
>If I have to do something extra myself to solve this problem, then please
>let me know.
You would have to contact Matt Dralle about that.
He holds the "keys to the system" as it were. No
doubt there is a way to get into the files and
work on them.
>Thank you so much and have a nice Thanksgiving season.
. . . and you too sir!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot heater - current sensor |
>Bob,
>
>Say - I noticed diagram PitotHeat.pdf on your website...
>
>This seems like a slick low cost way to know if your pitot heater is
>actually drawing current.
>
>Could I also use this for a fuel boost pump?
>
>Do you have a picture of a finished unit and how you would wrap the wire
>around it, heat shrink, etc?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
I've not published any specifics on utilizing reed-switches
as current sensors. They're used in MANY similar applications
on our production airplanes. Light ON says system IS powered
and IS drawing current.
Reed switches come in lots of sizes and sensitivities.
Get a 275-232 reed relay from Radio Shack. Remove
existing excitation coil and rewind with 22AWG for up
to 10A circuit and 16AWG for up to 20A circuit. Find
minimum number of turns that will close the relay contacts
when your electro-whizzie is powered at about 10 volts
(end of battery life).
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/CurrentSense.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DeIce/Pitot_Heat.pdf
I've considered packaging calibrated current sensors
either with reed switches or perhaps more sophisticated
electronics . . . but the reeds are simple, inexpensive
and reasonably rugged after installation. You'll need
to be gentle on these things while working with them.
After the design is fixed, consider "potting" the
werks in hot-glue.
For individual loose reed capsules check out
http://tinyurl.com/yfb3rf
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=7459+SW
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13078
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13997
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GP57
It takes some experimentation but the simple-ideas that
support the invention are sound. We've been doing this
in GA aircraft for decades.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
| Subject: | One more Z-19 try! |
My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot
is on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored for
days even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
Here tis' again:
*Bob, and others,
I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to
follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator.
Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to
install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the
coils and the injectors off of the battery buss.
How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode
output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Verwey" <bonanza(at)vodamail.co.za> |
OBAM, Heading select & alt hold, coupled GPS would be nice!
Thanx
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza et al
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: 24 Nov 2006 08:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
On 24-Nov-06, at 10:44 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
Hey listers,
I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit, but
still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
Do you need an installation for a type-certificated aircraft, or
amateur-built? What capabilities do you want? Wing leveler only? Heading
select? Altitude hold? Airspeed hold? Vertical speed hold? Altitude
preselect? Coupled ILS? Coupled GPS? Coupled approach VNAV?
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One more Z-19 try! |
>
>
>My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
>discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot is
>on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored for days
>even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
>
>Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
>own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>
>Here tis' again:
Yes it has. I've been pondering the underlying
philosophy behind what I will offer later today.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com> |
I have the Pictorial Pilot and AlTrak so I vote for TruTrak! I would
have invested in the ADI Pilot if it was available when I purchased.
Both work great in my Lancair. Earl
Bob Verwey wrote:
>
> OBAM, Heading select & alt hold, coupled GPS would be nice!
> Thanx
> Bob Verwey
> A35 Bonanza et al
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Kevin Horton
> *Sent:* 24 Nov 2006 08:25 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
>
> On 24-Nov-06, at 10:44 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
>
>> Hey listers,
>> I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit,
>> but still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
>> Bob Verwey
>> A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
>
>
> Do you need an installation for a type-certificated aircraft, or
> amateur-built? What capabilities do you want? Wing leveler only?
> Heading select? Altitude hold? Airspeed hold? Vertical speed hold?
> Altitude preselect? Coupled ILS? Coupled GPS? Coupled approach VNAV?
>
> Kevin Horton
> RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> *
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One more Z-19 try! |
Unless one is familiar with rotary engines there is perhaps little that
can be said. Will the thing continue to run and make sufficient power to
stay airborne if either primary or secondary ignition or injectors fail?
No point have multiple power sources if it just multiplies the things
that can kill the engine. I'd suggest you look at what others have done
and then ask specific questions. Have you looked at the Real World
Solutions website?
Ken
Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
>
> My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
> discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot
> is on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored
> for days even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
>
> Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
> own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>
> Here tis' again:
>
> *Bob, and others,
> I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to
> follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator.
> Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to
> install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the
> coils and the injectors off of the battery buss.
> How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode
> output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
> What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar
> circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
> I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
> Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
> Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
I'm a fan of TruTrak.
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsproducts.html
I've chosen TruTrak for my RV-6 project.
I'm flying a Trio autopilot in our RV and it works well.
http://www.trioavionics.com/index.htm
You'll find happy customers of both companies out there.
Pax,
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Verwey
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 6:42 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
OBAM, Heading select & alt hold, coupled GPS would be nice!
Thanx
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza et al
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: 24 Nov 2006 08:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
On 24-Nov-06, at 10:44 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
Hey listers,
I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit, but
still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
Do you need an installation for a type-certificated aircraft, or
amateur-built? What capabilities do you want? Wing leveler only? Heading
select? Altitude hold? Airspeed hold? Vertical speed hold? Altitude
preselect? Coupled ILS? Coupled GPS? Coupled approach VNAV?
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Duckett" <perfeng(at)3rivers.net> |
| Subject: | Re: One more Z-19 try! |
Bill,
First, you never said how you intend to manage the engine (ie fuel, timing,
mixture, fuel pressure, and such). IMHO the eaisiest way to do so is to
utilize the EMC (engine management computer). In doing so many of your
queries will become mute.
The computer generally will manage all of these and as far as powering from
the battery bus, it doesn't care where the power comes from. Some systems
(such as Ford) utilize primary and secondary fuel pumps, it depends on the
operating parameters like timing advance curves, return fuel pressure, coil
dwell, and in general the design of the system. If primary and secondary
components are needed to maintain your system, the computer will be designed
to manage them. If you just want redundancy, one of the easiest ways is to
duplicaate that portion of the system with a seperate circuit.
Having ran a hot rod shop for many, many years, we have done conversions on
just about every kind of vehicle. As a general rule, we may modify the
parameters of the computer and streamline the sensors but, we hardly ever
try to re-invent the management system itself.
A place to start with Mazda powerplants is Adkins Rotary Specialties out of
Tacoma, Washington. There are several ohters that are really knowledgeable
but, we had excellent luck working with them on Mazda type situations.
As far as reprograming the computer, there are several outfits that can do
just that. One of the one's we use can actually design and build a totally
new EMC for the application if our requirements are that far outside of the
O.E.M. spec.s.(really exotic).
Just a suggestion...
Jim Duckett, RV-7A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 6:11 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: One more Z-19 try!
>
>
> My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
> discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot is
> on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored for days
> even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
>
> Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
> own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>
> Here tis' again:
>
> *Bob, and others,
> I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow
> the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the
> engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and
> secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors
> off of the battery buss.
> How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output
> and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
> What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits
> for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
> I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
> Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
> Bill B
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | One more Z-19 try! |
Bill,
Your needs are similar to what us Subaru guys need to do. So while I'm not
there yet, may I suggest you look at Eggenfellner.com for their solutions.
The needs are very similar to a Rotary setup. They have many flying and
many more under construction. Theirs is based on the Expbus but I think it
may be changing. Z-19 based system is what I'm wanting to do but don't know
enough yet to advise you.
Bevan
RV7A
Eggenfellner H6 on order
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One more Z-19 try!
Unless one is familiar with rotary engines there is perhaps little that can
be said. Will the thing continue to run and make sufficient power to stay
airborne if either primary or secondary ignition or injectors fail?
No point have multiple power sources if it just multiplies the things that
can kill the engine. I'd suggest you look at what others have done and then
ask specific questions. Have you looked at the Real World Solutions website?
Ken
Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
>
> My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
> discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot
> is on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored
> for days even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
>
> Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
> own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>
> Here tis' again:
>
> *Bob, and others,
> I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to
> follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator.
> Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to
> install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the
> coils and the injectors off of the battery buss.
> How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode
> output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
> What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar
> circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
> I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
> Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
> Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
There are many happy customers of both the TruTrak and Trio
autopilots. They both have alt hold and coupled lateral GPS. But,
neither one offers heading select. They both have track select,
using track from the GPS. This isn't the same as heading select, but
you could manually turn to the desired heading, then have the
autopilot hold the current track.
If you want heading select, I think you would need to purchase a Blue
Mountain EFIS system and their autopilot. Or maybe S-Tec + an
expensive heading gyro with a heading output.
Heading select requires a gyro system that outputs heading, which is
generally fairly expensive. Some of the newer low cost EFIS systems
have an AHRS with a magnetic field sensor to get heading, but I don't
think any of them output the same type of signal as a gyro with
heading output, so you can't use them in place of a mechanical gryo,
unless the autopilot was built around the AHRS, as with Blue Mountain.
Kevin Horton
On 25 Nov 2006, at 09:41, Bob Verwey wrote:
>
> OBAM, Heading select & alt hold, coupled GPS would be nice!
> Thanx
> Bob Verwey
> A35 Bonanza et al
>
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
> Sent: 24 Nov 2006 08:25 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
>
> On 24-Nov-06, at 10:44 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
>
>> Hey listers,
>> I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a
>> bit, but still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
>> Bob Verwey
>> A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
>
>
> Do you need an installation for a type-certificated aircraft, or
> amateur-built? What capabilities do you want? Wing leveler only?
> Heading select? Altitude hold? Airspeed hold? Vertical speed hold?
> Altitude preselect? Coupled ILS? Coupled GPS? Coupled approach VNAV?
>
> Kevin Horton
> RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://
> www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://
> www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
> chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List _-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List _-
> ===========================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One more Z-19 try! |
One way to do multiple power sources for critical systems is to have
power from each bus going through a diode to the device of interest.
That way the critical system will continue to receive power even if
one of the power sources fails, but a fault on one bus cannot take
out the other bus, as the diodes provide protection. This approach
is used quite a bit in type-certificated aircraft with critical
systems. The critical systems should also be designed so that no
single failure of the system can prevent successful completion of the
flight. And, there should be a way to check for dormant failures on
some periodic basis (e.g. if you use diodes to provide multiple power
sources - you would want some way to confirm that both diodes were
functional).
Kevin Horton
On 25 Nov 2006, at 13:01, Ken wrote:
>
> Unless one is familiar with rotary engines there is perhaps little
> that can be said. Will the thing continue to run and make
> sufficient power to stay airborne if either primary or secondary
> ignition or injectors fail? No point have multiple power sources if
> it just multiplies the things that can kill the engine. I'd
> suggest you look at what others have done and then ask specific
> questions. Have you looked at the Real World Solutions website?
> Ken
>
>
> Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots
>> of discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only
>> one foot is on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has
>> been ignored for days even when it was embroiled in the screwup of
>> the month! {:<(
>>
>> Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on
>> my own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>>
>> Here tis' again:
>>
>> *Bob, and others,
>> I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying
>> to follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single
>> alternator. Looking at the engine primary and secondary
>> circuit, I need to install a primary and secondary fuel pump,
>> plus I want to power the coils and the injectors off of the
>> battery buss.
>> How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump
>> diode output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
>> What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar
>> circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
>> I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
>> Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
>> Bill B
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
If I can determine and find the right stepper motors, I plan to build my
own :)
David M.
Bob Verwey wrote:
> Hey listers,
> I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit,
> but still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
>
> Bob Verwey
> A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | multiple engine leads from one source |
Does anyone know if you can pull multiple leads off of CHT probes, EGT
probes, and Oil Temp to feed two different engine analysis systems. I have
a
Vision Micro system VM1000 and now a new Grand Rapids EIS. I would Like to use
both as back up but would also like not to have to install duplicate CHT,
EGT, oil temp Probes. Thanks Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg" <greg(at)itmack.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One more Z-19 try! |
Bill, did you look at the drawing I posted on the Rotary list, is there
some problem that you see with my system?
Greg
>
> Bill,
>
> Your needs are similar to what us Subaru guys need to do. So while I'm
> not
> there yet, may I suggest you look at Eggenfellner.com for their solutions.
> The needs are very similar to a Rotary setup. They have many flying and
> many more under construction. Theirs is based on the Expbus but I think
> it
> may be changing. Z-19 based system is what I'm wanting to do but don't
> know
> enough yet to advise you.
>
> Bevan
> RV7A
> Eggenfellner H6 on order
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:01 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One more Z-19 try!
>
>
> Unless one is familiar with rotary engines there is perhaps little that
> can
> be said. Will the thing continue to run and make sufficient power to stay
> airborne if either primary or secondary ignition or injectors fail?
> No point have multiple power sources if it just multiplies the things that
> can kill the engine. I'd suggest you look at what others have done and
> then
> ask specific questions. Have you looked at the Real World Solutions
> website?
> Ken
>
>
> Bill Bradburry wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
>> discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot
>> is on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored
>> for days even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
>>
>> Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
>> own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>>
>> Here tis' again:
>>
>> *Bob, and others,
>> I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to
>> follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator.
>> Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to
>> install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the
>> coils and the injectors off of the battery buss.
>> How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode
>> output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps???
>> What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar
>> circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts???
>> I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me.
>> Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
>> Bill B
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Second Pump Option on Z-19 |
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>My original question has generated absolutely no interest!! Lots of
>>discussion of measurement systems, are you grounded when only one foot is
>>on the floor, etc., but my silly little question has been ignored for
>>days even when it was embroiled in the screwup of the month! {:<(
>>
>>Surely you guys don't want me to have to go and figure this out on my
>>own!! My blood would be on your hands!! {:<)
>>
>>Here tis' again:
>
> Yes it has. I've been pondering the underlying
> philosophy behind what I will offer later today.
Without knowing more about how tollerant your engine
engine is with various failures of hardware, I'm presuming
that you're interested in Figure Z-19 but noted that it supports
only one fuel pump.
After some pondering of the failure modes, it seems practical
that your second pump simply be added to one of the battery
busses (in this case the Main Battery bus) as shown in revision
M to Figure Z-19 as posted here . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z19M.dwg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19M_1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19M_2.pdf
The primary pump and ECS both get supplied from dual power
sources with no single points of failure upstream of the
diodes as before. Obviously, failure of #1 pump stops the
engine so if you want a second pump, it's sufficient to
power it from one of the battery busses through it's own switch.
I presume you'll have a fuel pressure gage so to pre-flight,
you turn on the #2 pump momentarily to watch for rise in fuel
pressure before you power up the engine using the #1 pump
in normal operation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: multiple engine leads from one source |
>Does anyone know if you can pull multiple leads off of CHT probes, EGT
>probes, and Oil Temp to feed two different engine analysis systems. I
>have a Vision Micro system VM1000 and now a new Grand Rapids EIS. I
>would Like to use both as back up but would also like not to have to
>install duplicate CHT, EGT, oil temp Probes. Thanks Tim
You can . . . IF.
It's dependent upon the signal conditioning circuitry in
the two instruments. Some systems will tolerate paralleling
as you've suggested but without seeing schematics of the
two systems and/or talking with the designers, it's not
possible to make a recommendation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
Hi Kevin,
Almost right.....but...Even the lowest priced TruTrak has an internal
magentometer (along with a little gyro/accelerometer) that allows you to fly
the airplane in magentic heading mode and select the heading in 1 degree
increments, or you can steer to a new magnetic heading. Naturally you have
to calibrate the thing before doing that, but the TruTrak's have been this
way since day one. I'm not 100% sure about Trio's AP's (even though I sell
those too) but I don't have one of theirs installed in my plane....whereas
I've been flying behind the TruTrak stuff for awhile now.
All of the above can be accomplished with the GPS removed from the aircraft.
Then it won't follow a course, but the magenetic heading is the "backup" in
case the GPS signal gets inturrepted or doesn't work, etc... It's much nicer
to have the GPS hooked to either of them, put a flightplan or "direct 2" in
the GPS, hit the NAV button and let go!
Either way, you'll be happy!
Cheers,
Stein.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin
>Horton
>Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:26 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
>
>
>
>
>There are many happy customers of both the TruTrak and Trio
>autopilots. They both have alt hold and coupled lateral GPS. But,
>neither one offers heading select. They both have track select,
>using track from the GPS. This isn't the same as heading select, but
>you could manually turn to the desired heading, then have the
>autopilot hold the current track.
>
>If you want heading select, I think you would need to purchase a Blue
>Mountain EFIS system and their autopilot. Or maybe S-Tec + an
>expensive heading gyro with a heading output.
>
>Heading select requires a gyro system that outputs heading, which is
>generally fairly expensive. Some of the newer low cost EFIS systems
>have an AHRS with a magnetic field sensor to get heading, but I don't
>think any of them output the same type of signal as a gyro with
>heading output, so you can't use them in place of a mechanical gryo,
>unless the autopilot was built around the AHRS, as with Blue Mountain.
>
>Kevin Horton
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
Stein,
I did look at the TruTrak web site before posting, and found no
mention of a heading select mode, but digging deeper now I see some
mention in the Quick Reference Guide for the DigiTrak. The info in
the Quick Reference Guide is a bit spartan though. If you want to
fly a particular heading (vice a track), how do you tell the
autopilot to turn to that heading? Can the heading mode be used if
the GPS is functional?
Kevin
On 25 Nov 2006, at 19:47, SteinAir, Inc. wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> Almost right.....but...Even the lowest priced TruTrak has an internal
> magentometer (along with a little gyro/accelerometer) that allows
> you to fly
> the airplane in magentic heading mode and select the heading in 1
> degree
> increments, or you can steer to a new magnetic heading. Naturally
> you have
> to calibrate the thing before doing that, but the TruTrak's have
> been this
> way since day one. I'm not 100% sure about Trio's AP's (even
> though I sell
> those too) but I don't have one of theirs installed in my
> plane....whereas
> I've been flying behind the TruTrak stuff for awhile now.
>
> All of the above can be accomplished with the GPS removed from the
> aircraft.
> Then it won't follow a course, but the magenetic heading is the
> "backup" in
> case the GPS signal gets inturrepted or doesn't work, etc... It's
> much nicer
> to have the GPS hooked to either of them, put a flightplan or
> "direct 2" in
> the GPS, hit the NAV button and let go!
>
> Either way, you'll be happy!
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>> Kevin
>> Horton
>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:26 PM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many happy customers of both the TruTrak and Trio
>> autopilots. They both have alt hold and coupled lateral GPS. But,
>> neither one offers heading select. They both have track select,
>> using track from the GPS. This isn't the same as heading select, but
>> you could manually turn to the desired heading, then have the
>> autopilot hold the current track.
>>
>> If you want heading select, I think you would need to purchase a Blue
>> Mountain EFIS system and their autopilot. Or maybe S-Tec + an
>> expensive heading gyro with a heading output.
>>
>> Heading select requires a gyro system that outputs heading, which is
>> generally fairly expensive. Some of the newer low cost EFIS systems
>> have an AHRS with a magnetic field sensor to get heading, but I don't
>> think any of them output the same type of signal as a gyro with
>> heading output, so you can't use them in place of a mechanical gryo,
>> unless the autopilot was built around the AHRS, as with Blue
>> Mountain.
>>
>> Kevin Horton
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
My apoligize to Robert Nuckolls in write wrong he's name.
Hugo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
As usual you are wise beyone your years! It's only a very basic magnetic
heading...you have to 'point' the airplane to a specific heading of sorts,
and once engaged a click of the knob or turn of the wheel (on my pic/pilot)
moves you one degree. You can't tell it to go to a specific heading
without a known starting point....hopefully referenced to your compass or
something. It's mainly a backup thing in case everything else in your
airplane fails (or you're me and you forgot to plug in the GPS then the
batteries go dead)! To use it with the GPS functional and installed, you
need to remove the GPS data feed, either by shutting the GPS off or turning
of the NMEA data stream.
Hope that clears things up. Like I said....you were kind of right - I just
had to point out that one little bit. Of course it's not the most powerful
bit of functionality in the world, but then it's not meant to be. It's
supposed to cover your rear in the case of other things failing. Like I
said, I'm not 100% sure about the Trio, and really not sure about how the
BMA in reality actually provides that info (and if it even really does or
still uses some GPS input), but I do know more about the TTAP's.
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
Stein,
I did look at the TruTrak web site before posting, and found no
mention of a heading select mode, but digging deeper now I see some
mention in the Quick Reference Guide for the DigiTrak. The info in
the Quick Reference Guide is a bit spartan though. If you want to
fly a particular heading (vice a track), how do you tell the
autopilot to turn to that heading? Can the heading mode be used if
the GPS is functional?
Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | multiple engine leads from one source |
Hi Tim,
With some probes yes, and others no. The most likely answer to your
question is no. I'm a bit confused to begin with why you have 2 engine
monitors (both have quite a good history of reliability) with GRT having
literally THOUSANDS of those units flying with little to know problems that
I've known about. Splicing CHT's & EGT's could be a slippery slope...there
are many different kinds of wire & probes between mfgrs (such as
shielded/unshielded, grounded/ungrounded, solid/stranded, etc..). All are
setup to read certain specifics. Paralleling onto them could cause lots of
problems. Some transducers however allow you to split their signals. It's
much easier on powered/excited probes than plain old resistive ones. In
basic resistive probes if you "tack on" other things it can significantly
vary the readings...
Hope that helps. In the end I'd just say stay away from that and decide
which engine monitor to use. Two of them is frankly a bit of overkill in my
opinion. If the fan is turning you're most likely ok :) Duplicate CHT's &
EGT's don't buy you much - you can't possibly watch all of each systems
indications all the time anyway. If they don't match, now you have to try
and decide which one is the "master" or is "right". If you're doing this
when you have a problem then you're not flying the plane.
Anyway, enough of my bantering. I get this question asked with surprising
regularity and I still can't figure it out! Sorry for being sarcastic,
that's not my intent. I'm just trying to point out that with added
complexity comes reduced reliability and little gain in form or in function.
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
TimRhod(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:06 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: multiple engine leads from one source
Does anyone know if you can pull multiple leads off of CHT probes, EGT
probes, and Oil Temp to feed two different engine analysis systems. I have
a Vision Micro system VM1000 and now a new Grand Rapids EIS. I would Like
to use both as back up but would also like not to have to install duplicate
CHT, EGT, oil temp Probes. Thanks Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: multiple engine leads from one source |
Thanks for the input Tim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | G McNutt <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
Kevin Horton wrote:
> (snip)
> Heading select requires a gyro system that outputs heading, which is
> generally fairly expensive. Some of the newer low cost EFIS systems
> have an AHRS with a magnetic field sensor to get heading, but I don't
> think any of them output the same type of signal as a gyro with
> heading output, so you can't use them in place of a mechanical gryo,
> unless the autopilot was built around the AHRS, as with Blue Mountain.
>
> Kevin Horton
Hi Kevin & Steine
I hope I am not wrong here but I have been told that the GRT Sport EFIS
that I am installing will output heading, VOR and GPS signals to the
Trutrak autopilot all in the same RS232 format as the normal GPS nav
output. Therefore I am expecting to have GPS nav mode, heading select or
VOR/ILS tracking from my Trutrak ADI 2 when it is in Nav mode . This
requires the $400 moving map option in the Sport. In my installation the
A/P will normally get all inputs from EFIS but is switchable directly to
the GPS output for nav if the EFIS fails.
George in Langley BC
7A GRT Sport & Trutrak ADI-2.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | Re: multiple engine leads from one source |
You know the old saying: never use just 2 watches...
David M.
Stein Bruch wrote:
> Hi Tim,
>
> With some probes yes, and others no. The most likely answer to your
> question is no. I'm a bit confused to begin with why you have 2
> engine monitors (both have quite a good history of reliability) with
> GRT having literally THOUSANDS of those units flying with little to
> know problems that I've known about. Splicing CHT's & EGT's could be
> a slippery slope...there are many different kinds of wire & probes
> between mfgrs (such as shielded/unshielded, grounded/ungrounded,
> solid/stranded, etc..). All are setup to read certain specifics.
> Paralleling onto them could cause lots of problems. Some transducers
> however allow you to split their signals. It's much easier on
> powered/excited probes than plain old resistive ones. In basic
> resistive probes if you "tack on" other things it can significantly
> vary the readings...
>
> Hope that helps. In the end I'd just say stay away from that and
> decide which engine monitor to use. Two of them is frankly a bit of
> overkill in my opinion. If the fan is turning you're most likely ok
> :) Duplicate CHT's & EGT's don't buy you much - you can't possibly
> watch all of each systems indications all the time anyway. If they
> don't match, now you have to try and decide which one is the "master"
> or is "right". If you're doing this when you have a problem then
> you're not flying the plane.
>
> Anyway, enough of my bantering. I get this question asked with
> surprising regularity and I still can't figure it out! Sorry for
> being sarcastic, that's not my intent. I'm just trying to point out
> that with added complexity comes reduced reliability and little gain
> in form or in function.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> TimRhod(at)aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:06 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: multiple engine leads from one source
>
> Does anyone know if you can pull multiple leads off of CHT probes,
> EGT probes, and Oil Temp to feed two different engine analysis
> systems. I have a Vision Micro system VM1000 and now a new Grand
> Rapids EIS. I would Like to use both as back up but would also
> like not to have to install duplicate CHT, EGT, oil temp Probes.
> Thanks Tim
>
>
>href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
>href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200-Help! |
| From: | "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz> |
I've been informed by a number of people that the A200 is identical design to the
BendixKing KY96. it certainly seems functionally identical and I recall the
trays fit each other's radio. Bob, if you do get that icom manual pse confirm
? I'm a radio tech and got some of the BK manual from the avionics dealers
(they quite rightly weren't keen to give me the whole manual) every time i'm asked
to set up an A200 I just do as I have for the BK. The mod. level adjust pot
works backwards too, just like the original- talk about attention to detail!
Therefore any wiring setup used for the BK hot mic intercom should apply to the
A200.
Ralph, C150 / CH701
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77001#77001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hugo's antenna questions |
>
>Hi All,
>I 'm installing a Comant antenna in the top cabin of my RV10(composite)it
>is a VHF-GPS-Weather data, while I have no problem in doing so in the
>metal part ,in the cabin(after I read Bob Nicklaus booK) it looks like I
>must install a ground plane inside the cabin.
>The book is very fast in explaining,(cut a one inch cooper and weld )
>(call 3m for materials) and so on,it does not mention the lengths of each
>leg nor the diameter of the round plate, does it need to be aluminum or
>copper?
Radials under an antenna should be the same length as the
antenna itself. For example, If the comm antenna is
23" in height above the skin, the radials under it should
describe a circle (or skeleton of a circle) that has
a radius of 23". Therefore the disk may be of any size
and the radials of any length as long as distance from
tip of a radial measured to the center of the disk is
the same as the height of the antenna.
The disk serves two purposes: Provide a doubler under the
antenna and an radio frequency ground for the antenna. You
can make the disk and radials out of aluminum but you'd
have to rivet the ends of the radials to the disk to get
a good electrical connection. I prefer to use copper or brass.
If you don't need to add structural doubler, the disk
may be quite thin . . . .005" brass shim stock would
work.
When you use copper or brass and make the radials
from copper or brass, one may attach the radials to
the disk by soldering which provides an electrical
connection with great longevity.
In cases were the radials are short (2.6" under
a transponder antenna) then the entire ground plane
can be one solid disk. Here the disk may be aluminum,
brass or copper.
>Thanks
>The book is very good ,but its still way beyoong me since I don't want to
>became an electronic engineer before learning how to build an airplane,
>I'm still thinking many builders want to learn how to build a panel
>without the necessity of knowing how an alternator is built ,or how many
>inches are the quarter wave(watever that means)I thinks the first
>technician who will be able to show pictures at what a diode look like and
>wich point needs to be solder ,will sale a tons of books,and don't try to
>convert every body in master panel designers.
The AeroElectric Connection is not an attempt to
convert anyone to anything. It's simply a collection
of simple ideas that offers more than the traditional
"cook books" bur falls far short of making an engineer
out of anyone.
It was crafted with the idea that the informed builder
is the most confident builder both in terms of building
and operating his/her airplane. A great many of our
fellow pilots operate their airplanes much as they do
their cars. The machines are just appliances with knobs,
levers, and fuel tanks. They are competent enough in
operating the machine to get a license but have little
if any knowledge about how it works (and perhaps don't
care).
>Its my personal opinion only.
If you don't believe you received fair value for
your purchase, just let me know and I'll refund your
money.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hugo's antenna questions |
Hugo, why have you decided to mount the Com antenna on the top? most of
the transmissions will be between the aircraft and ground based
stations, I believe that most of the RV-10 builders are mounting their
Com antennas on the bottom of the aircraft where they also have the
advantage of the metal skin. FWIW
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hugo's antenna questions |
> The commant in the roof is a triple in one ,is my 2nd VHF(#1 is at the bottom
,bend commant),is my GPS and because soon or later I will need WX data it does
to.It is very expensive about 750.00 ,but still cheaper if purchase separate
,I was tinking with one in the cabin I will reduce some drag,plus in some unfortunate
event something hits the bottom,still have the top one.
hugo
> From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
> Date: 2006/11/26 Sun AM 10:26:01 EST
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hugo's antenna questions
>
>
>
> Hugo, why have you decided to mount the Com antenna on the top? most of
> the transmissions will be between the aircraft and ground based
> stations, I believe that most of the RV-10 builders are mounting their
> Com antennas on the bottom of the aircraft where they also have the
> advantage of the metal skin. FWIW
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gommone7(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hugo's antenna questions |
Thanks for the answer.
Please don't misunderstend me,
the book is great, and I still think you are a real gentleman, the same opinion
I have when I talked to you at the time I ordered the book, even if I sound sarcastic
(I have the same problem at home with my kids,it runs in my family blood.)
You still answered properly ,like every time somebody in the list tries
to make you loose yor temper. My only purpose is the positive criticism,I think
it is never too late to learn from others,I'm 50 and still probably do not know
anything. Being very knowledgeable in some profession does not mean it is
easy to be a teacher,you see ,in my opinion when you try to teach somebody with
no notion of the subject matter ,you must to go down to their level and start
from there ,I hope you don't still missunderstand me ,I wish I can help you
in improve the manual, so that the common mortals guys ,who one day decided to
build an airplane will be able to manufacture their panels,and I thinks is very
easy
Thanks for the help.
Hugo Terrosa
Ps. If you need a manual ,you must purchase one,because I don't think I'll be sending
mine back.
>
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
> Date: 2006/11/26 Sun AM 09:19:15 EST
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hugo's antenna questions
>
>
>
> >
> >Hi All,
> >I 'm installing a Comant antenna in the top cabin of my RV10(composite)it
> >is a VHF-GPS-Weather data, while I have no problem in doing so in the
> >metal part ,in the cabin(after I read Bob Nicklaus booK) it looks like I
> >must install a ground plane inside the cabin.
> >The book is very fast in explaining,(cut a one inch cooper and weld )
> >(call 3m for materials) and so on,it does not mention the lengths of each
> >leg nor the diameter of the round plate, does it need to be aluminum or
> >copper?
>
> Radials under an antenna should be the same length as the
> antenna itself. For example, If the comm antenna is
> 23" in height above the skin, the radials under it should
> describe a circle (or skeleton of a circle) that has
> a radius of 23". Therefore the disk may be of any size
> and the radials of any length as long as distance from
> tip of a radial measured to the center of the disk is
> the same as the height of the antenna.
>
> The disk serves two purposes: Provide a doubler under the
> antenna and an radio frequency ground for the antenna. You
> can make the disk and radials out of aluminum but you'd
> have to rivet the ends of the radials to the disk to get
> a good electrical connection. I prefer to use copper or brass.
> If you don't need to add structural doubler, the disk
> may be quite thin . . . .005" brass shim stock would
> work.
>
> When you use copper or brass and make the radials
> from copper or brass, one may attach the radials to
> the disk by soldering which provides an electrical
> connection with great longevity.
>
> In cases were the radials are short (2.6" under
> a transponder antenna) then the entire ground plane
> can be one solid disk. Here the disk may be aluminum,
> brass or copper.
>
> >Thanks
> >The book is very good ,but its still way beyoong me since I don't want to
> >became an electronic engineer before learning how to build an airplane,
> >I'm still thinking many builders want to learn how to build a panel
> >without the necessity of knowing how an alternator is built ,or how many
> >inches are the quarter wave(watever that means)I thinks the first
> >technician who will be able to show pictures at what a diode look like and
> >wich point needs to be solder ,will sale a tons of books,and don't try to
> >convert every body in master panel designers.
>
> The AeroElectric Connection is not an attempt to
> convert anyone to anything. It's simply a collection
> of simple ideas that offers more than the traditional
> "cook books" bur falls far short of making an engineer
> out of anyone.
>
> It was crafted with the idea that the informed builder
> is the most confident builder both in terms of building
> and operating his/her airplane. A great many of our
> fellow pilots operate their airplanes much as they do
> their cars. The machines are just appliances with knobs,
> levers, and fuel tanks. They are competent enough in
> operating the machine to get a license but have little
> if any knowledge about how it works (and perhaps don't
> care).
>
> >Its my personal opinion only.
>
> If you don't believe you received fair value for
> your purchase, just let me know and I'll refund your
> money.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Hugo's antenna questions |
>
>Thanks for the answer.
>Please don't misunderstend me,
>the book is great, and I still think you are a real gentleman, the same
>opinion I have when I talked to you at the time I ordered the book, even
>if I sound sarcastic (I have the same problem at home with my kids,it runs
>in my family blood.) You still answered properly ,like every time somebody
>in the list tries to make you loose yor temper. My only purpose is the
>positive criticism,I think it is never too late to learn from others,I'm
>50 and still probably do not know anything. Being very knowledgeable in
>some profession does not mean it is easy to be a teacher,you see ,in my
>opinion when you try to teach somebody with no notion of the subject
>matter ,you must to go down to their level and start from there ,I hope
>you don't still missunderstand me ,I wish I can help you in improve the
>manual, so that the common mortals guys ,who one day decided to build an
>airplane will be able to manufacture their panels,and I thinks is very easy
>Thanks for the help.
>Hugo Terrosa
Not at all sir. I'm just making sure that 1300 or so other folks
on the List understand too!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Antennaes and primer |
| From: | "N395V" <n395v(at)hughes.net> |
Well for the most part it wasn't the primer. Sanded the primer of and the GPSs
got a little better but com nav stil were pretty much TU.
Replaced all the coax connectors I had put in, still no joy. Hooked up my portable
nav/com to the antenna cables and it worked great.Bench checked th com/nav...
no problems. Must be the tray...not quite. When I purchased the units Garmin
compels their suppliers to wire the trays with pigtails including antennaes.
You guessed it the pigtail coaxs were poorly assembled with the inner insulator
melted. The com had 2 shield whiskers touching the center conductor. The
nav was a dead short.
Thanks to all for the input.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77086#77086
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Direct e-mails to Bob . . . |
I just "cleaned" the in-basket for the personal e-mail
account going back to June. I note that I had to "dump"
about 200 direct e-mails where individuals were seeking
one-on-one attention . . . mostly on topics that have been
or should be discussed here on the List.
I do answer a goodly number of direct e-mails but I encourage
everyone to post their questions on the List . . . for several
reasons. First is sharing the conversation with a whole lot of
builders who find value in watching these exchanges go by. Second,
there may be multiple individuals with good answers too . . . if
the exchange happens in my personal e-mail "closet", the benefits
of community wisdom are lost.
Finally, because I believe the List is so important, I put
any available time on the List first. Direct e-mails on airplane
building take a back seat and once they're more than a week old,
they're quite likely to drop entirely off my radar screen.
I'm sure that some of those 200 odd folks are disappointed but
if any of you didn't hear from me, it's not out of disrespect
or even an unwillingness to be helpful. There are only so many
hours in the day.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 275-218 DPDT relay wiring |
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
Anyone has wiring diagram for wiring up Radio Shack 275-218 DPDT relay to a coolie
hat switch used for trim?
There are two coil terminals.. I assumed one for each switch position (eg. up/down)..
but do they need to be "energized" (feeding it +12V)? Both? Only one?
I could try a few different things, but would rather ask before I start making
smoke in the garage :)
What I've got so far is: 1 & 2 are jumpered together and go to ground. 3 & 4
jumpered together and go to +12. 5 & 6 are outputs that go to the motor.. just
not sure about these two coil terminals (7 & 8).
Thanks!
Radomir
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77135#77135
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph Hardin" <ralphhardin(at)comcast.net> |
Greetings Fellow Builders,
Have couple straight forward questions on sizing for a duel battery set
up in a F1 Rocket with high compression (10 to 1) AEIO540 Lycoming, duel
Plasma III Ignitions, duel B&C alternators a 60 amp and a 20 amp.
Right now for electical I'm just building the battery box which will be
slightly different that the plans since I want to go with (2) B&C 12V 16
A.H. batteries rather than the single 35 A.H. battery the plans call
for. I plan on building the (Z-14) Dual Battery, Duel Alternator, Split
Bus type system out of Bob's book down the road in 6 months or so.
Questions:
1) will the duel battery set up 32 A.H. total still be enough in most
cold weather conditions maybe down below freezing 15 or 20 flights a
year? I'm running a B & C NCS206-149-12 starter.
2) Any special mounting tips two be aware of with two batteries? Keep a
space between them?
Thanks
Ralph Hardin Seattle Wa.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Bob..
>Can you suggest a good way to ground shielded wires that use foil for
>shielding? I like your method for the braided wire, can find no reference
>for foil shielding. Thanks.
As you've observed, wires may be "shielded" by a variety
of techniques. The earliest shielding was accomplished with
an over-braid of fine wires. Obviously, braided wires cannot
offer 100% coverage for shielding effectiveness. Know that for
the vast majority of things we do in airplanes requiring
shielded conductors, one layer of tightly overbraided wires
will achieve 80% or better coverage and is just fine.
I think back in 60' or early 70's, Belden Wire and cable
figured out a simpler way to increase shielding coverage
and simplify construction by using thin aluminum foil to
instead of overbraid. One problem was that the aluminum
foil was a muther-bear to make connections so a "drain wire"
was added to the stranding makeup of the cable. The drain wire
may be inside or outside the foil and is always uninsulated
so that it makes contact with the foil over length of the cable.
See a couple of documents on my website at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Belden
The short answer to your question is, "Don't try to
mess with the aluminum foil as a conductor. Find the
Drain Wire and use it to achieve connection to the
foil."
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 275-218 DPDT relay wiring |
>
>Anyone has wiring diagram for wiring up Radio Shack 275-218 DPDT relay to
>a coolie hat switch used for trim?
>
>There are two coil terminals.. I assumed one for each switch position (eg.
>up/down).. but do they need to be "energized" (feeding it +12V)? Both?
>Only one? I could try a few different things, but would rather ask before
>I start making smoke in the garage :)
>
>What I've got so far is: 1 & 2 are jumpered together and go to ground. 3
>& 4 jumpered together and go to +12. 5 & 6 are outputs that go to the
>motor.. just not sure about these two coil terminals (7 & 8).
See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/trim2.pdf
You need two relays to do the architecture above.
Use 1/2 (one pole) of each relay to control the +
up and + down side of the trim actuator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 275-218 DPDT relay wiring |
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks.. apparently, can be done by doing this, which avoids using 2 relays:
http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Flap.pdf
that's what I was looking for exactly.
PS. Bob, it'd be very helpful to add this to the PPS drawings... beats buying/using
2 relays.
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77175#77175
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 275-218 DPDT relay wiring |
>
>Thanks.. apparently, can be done by doing this, which avoids using 2 relays:
>
> http://www.infinityaerospace.com/Flap.pdf
>
>
>that's what I was looking for exactly.
>
>
>PS. Bob, it'd be very helpful to add this to the PPS drawings... beats
>buying/using 2 relays.
Not if you want to use the coolie hat switch. The
single relay circuit runs motor current through the
pilot's control switch. The coolie hat switch would
certainly not withstand the current required to run
a flap motor. It might be okay with the current to
run a Ray-Allen actuator but one would have to publish
that caveat on any drawing of this architecture to
warn the builder that not only the relay but the switch
needs to be rated for motor load currents.
This is why I publish the generic 2-relay drawings you see
on the website. This architecture ALWAYS works with
ANY motor and switch combination because the switch
handles relay coil currents only. The 2-relay architecture
also provides dynamic braking by putting a dead short
across a spinning motor when the motor is de-energized.
Reduces coast against the limit switches.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Sizing |
>Greetings Fellow Builders,
>
>Have couple straight forward questions on sizing for a duel battery set up
>in a F1 Rocket with high compression (10 to 1) AEIO540 Lycoming, duel
>Plasma III Ignitions, duel B&C alternators a 60 amp and a 20 amp.
>
>Right now for electical I'm just building the battery box which will be
>slightly different that the plans since I want to go with (2) B&C 12V 16
>A.H. batteries rather than the single 35 A.H. battery the plans call for.
>I plan on building the (Z-14) Dual Battery, Duel Alternator, Split Bus
>type system out of Bob's book down the road in 6 months or so.
>
>Questions:
>1) will the duel battery set up 32 A.H. total still be enough in most cold
>weather conditions maybe down below freezing 15 or 20 flights a year? I'm
>running a B & C NCS206-149-12 starter.
If the batteries are up front and you plan to use
both batteries for cranking, then there's zero risk
of problems. Actually, one of those batteries will
crank the engine nicely. It's wire size/lengths that
will cripple an otherwise capable battery.
>2) Any special mounting tips two be aware of with two batteries? Keep a
>space between them?
They can mount tight. If they have lead posts, be sure
to use nice soft connecting wires . . . like 4AWG welding
cable irrespective of what size/style of fat wire is used
elsewhere.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 275-218 DPDT relay wiring |
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks.. that makes sense.. I'm using this for trim (Ray Allen).. not flaps..
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77191#77191
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're |
Listed!
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A200 - Question for Stein |
>
>I've been informed by a number of people that the A200 is identical design
>to the BendixKing KY96. it certainly seems functionally identical and I
>recall the trays fit each other's radio. Bob, if you do get that
>icom manual pse confirm ? I'm a radio tech and got some of the BK manual
>from the avionics dealers (they quite rightly weren't keen to give me the
>whole manual) every time i'm asked to set up an A200 I just do as I have
>for the BK. The mod. level adjust pot works backwards too, just like the
>original- talk about attention to detail!
>
>Therefore any wiring setup used for the BK hot mic intercom should apply
>to the A200.
I presume you're asking me about this issue. I've
not dabbled in the details of the various radios
for about 20 years and those radios were the kinds
of systems that go into the big GA aircraft.
So aside from a bit of interconnect data left over
from a bygone era of my career, I no longer have
access to or posses current knowledge of the details
you're asking about.
The honorable Stein Bruch might be your best
bet for answering this question. Stein, can
you help us out here?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Steer" <steerr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Z-13 for internally regulated alt |
I'm wiring my Zenith 601HD with a Stratus Subaru EA-81 engine using a
modified version of Z-13 - the Generic wiring diagram. Part of the
modification to that diagram is to accomodate the internally regulated
alternator. Z-13 uses a 2-10 Battery/Alt Master switch, so the batter
contacter is engaged in the first On position and both battery and
alternator are connected in the second position, indicating use of a 2-3
switch. I can see an advantage of being able to take the alternator off
line without shutting down the whole system using the 2-10 switch. However,
a note on the wiring diagram for the OVM-14 overvoltage protection module
says both the battery and alternator must come on and go off at the same
time.
Which switch is recommended in this situation? What is the reason for
bringing the battery and alternator on and off together?
Thanks very much for any help or advice.
Bill Steer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Steer" <steerr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 for internally regulated alt |
Oops. That "indicating use of a 2-3 switch" should have been on the
"However" sentence, not the one about the 2-10 switch. Sorry for the
confusion.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Steer" <steerr(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 for internally regulated alt
>
>
> I'm wiring my Zenith 601HD with a Stratus Subaru EA-81 engine using a
> modified version of Z-13 - the Generic wiring diagram. Part of the
> modification to that diagram is to accomodate the internally regulated
> alternator. Z-13 uses a 2-10 Battery/Alt Master switch, so the batter
> contacter is engaged in the first On position and both battery and
> alternator are connected in the second position, indicating use of a 2-3
> switch. I can see an advantage of being able to take the alternator off
> line without shutting down the whole system using the 2-10 switch.
> However, a note on the wiring diagram for the OVM-14 overvoltage
> protection module says both the battery and alternator must come on and go
> off at the same time.
>
> Which switch is recommended in this situation? What is the reason for
> bringing the battery and alternator on and off together?
>
> Thanks very much for any help or advice.
>
> Bill Steer
>
>
> --
> 11/26/2006 11:30 AM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 for internally regulated alt |
>
>I'm wiring my Zenith 601HD with a Stratus Subaru EA-81 engine using a
>modified version of Z-13 - the Generic wiring diagram. Part of the
>modification to that diagram is to accomodate the internally regulated
>alternator. Z-13 uses a 2-10 Battery/Alt Master switch, so the batter
>contacter is engaged in the first On position and both battery and
>alternator are connected in the second position, indicating use of a 2-3
>switch. I can see an advantage of being able to take the alternator off
>line without shutting down the whole system using the 2-10 switch.
In the early days of the Z-figures and before we had
sources for reasonably priced 2-10 switches, the 2-3
COMBINED with the breaker associated with a crowbar
ov protection system offers both normal operational
control of battery/alternator system (it matters not
whether they are ON/OFF together or progressively
switched OFF/BAT/BAT+ALT). The pullable breaker
offers a means by which an alternator can be kept
quiet on the ground during battery only ops.
You can use either combination but know also that
many if not all internally regulated alternators cannot
be shut down from outside should the regulator fail
in a ov runaway condition. A system for offsetting that
feature was published in the 'Connection some years ago
(Figure Z-24 combined a b-lead contactor and OVM-14).
Mis-use of this architecture (operating the alternator
ON/OFF control while alternator was under load) precipitated
some damage to alternator regulators. The word went out
that the circuit was "flawed and not recommended." One
can debate the politics of this statement endlessly but
the bottom line is that I withdrew Z-24 in its original
form.
A new control philosophy is being explored that will
offset the shortcomings of the original Z-24. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DCPwr/OV/z24a_Preliminary.pdf
It's by belief that this product will allow any time, any
conditions, ON/OFF control of an IR alternator without regard
to system safety.
Short answer to your question is that I recommend the 2-10
switch because it integrates nicely with the proposed
9004-1 Controller. But if you install a 2-3, the system will
come on line and function as advertised but without the
ability to control the alternator at will.
>However, a note on the wiring diagram for the OVM-14 overvoltage
>protection module says both the battery and alternator must come on and go
>off at the same time.
>Which switch is recommended in this situation? What is the reason for
>bringing the battery and alternator on and off together?
Where do you find this? I'm trying to understand the
context of the statement, at the moment it doesn't
seem valid . . .
You can go either way but the 2-10 is recommended for
the reason cite . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Steer" <steerr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 for internally regulated alt |
Thanks, Bob. I'll certainly go with your recommendation for the 2-10.
To answer your question about the source of the statement that said the
battery and alt must come on and off together... The OVM-14 from B&C came
with two wiring diagrams enclosed - one for internally and one for
externally regulated alternators. Both diagrams have a statement that says
"IMPORTANT - BATTERY CONTACTOR AND ALTERNATOR SHOULD COME ON AND OFF
TOGETHER."
Bill
>
> Where do you find this? I'm trying to understand the
> context of the statement, at the moment it doesn't
> seem valid . . .
>
> You can go either way but the 2-10 is recommended for
> the reason cite . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 for internally regulated alt |
>
>Thanks, Bob. I'll certainly go with your recommendation for the 2-10.
>
>To answer your question about the source of the statement that said the
>battery and alt must come on and off together... The OVM-14 from B&C came
>with two wiring diagrams enclosed - one for internally and one for
>externally regulated alternators. Both diagrams have a statement that
>says "IMPORTANT - BATTERY CONTACTOR AND ALTERNATOR SHOULD COME ON AND OFF
>TOGETHER."\
Hmmm . . . okay. That doesn't appear in one of
my publications. Thanks!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Sizing |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hello Mr Hardin,
I am just confused by the use of "Dual" and "Duel". "Duel(ling)
Alternators" sounds like some kind of weird techie cartoon. Or bad
regulator design. "Duel(ling) Batteries" sounds like something navel
(hah!) gunners would get involved in.
I apologize for picking on your message - there are so many typos/usage
problems posted. This message is no worse, though it did tickle my fancy
more than some others have..
Typos/usage problems can cause real headaches when communicating about
topics that require some amount of precision. Some people might say
"Well, they know what I mean. It's obvious." Sometimes it isn't.
Sometimes it's the decimal place or the minus sign. Hmm.
Here's to re-reading what you've typed before clicking the Send button.
You don't have time to proof read? Do you have time to send clarifying
messages when the first one you sent had errors/mistakes in it?
And, if you're going to make a mistake because you don't have time to look
up the correct spelling, make the mistake consistently..
A useful (though overly laden with advertisements) resource:
http://www.dictionary.com
Best regards,
Matt-
> Greetings Fellow Builders,
>
> Have couple straight forward questions on sizing for a duel battery set
up
> in a F1 Rocket with high compression (10 to 1) AEIO540 Lycoming, duel
Plasma III Ignitions, duel B&C alternators a 60 amp and a 20 amp.
>
> Right now for electical I'm just building the battery box which will be
slightly different that the plans since I want to go with (2) B&C 12V 16
A.H. batteries rather than the single 35 A.H. battery the plans call
for.
> I plan on building the (Z-14) Dual Battery, Duel Alternator, Split Bus
type system out of Bob's book down the road in 6 months or so.
>
> Questions:
> 1) will the duel battery set up 32 A.H. total still be enough in most
cold
> weather conditions maybe down below freezing 15 or 20 flights a year?
I'm
> running a B & C NCS206-149-12 starter.
> 2) Any special mounting tips two be aware of with two batteries? Keep a
space between them?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ralph Hardin Seattle Wa.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
| From: | "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net> |
Hello,
Yesterday during flight my alternator quit charging. It is a Ford design with
a Continental part # 633661 and using a Zeftronics R15VOL regulator (which is
showing a green light on it's self diagnostic system). It is a direct drive on
the rear of the engine. I am currently checking voltage/ohms, etc.
I noticed today that the alternator cooling fan does not turn when the crankshaft
is rotated by hand or when the engine is running. Does this mean something
mechanical has broken and my failure to charge is actually caused by the alternator
not turning? I have read about a gear coupling on some larger enginesbut
cant find any info regarding the alternator set up on the IO-240. Any info
regarding my failed system would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77430#77430
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Harold Kovac" <kayce33(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Sizing |
Well said, now onto the difference between "your" that which belongs to you,
and "you're" meaning ....you are.
Harold Kovac......no stranger to typos or other errors
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Sizing
>
>
> Hello Mr Hardin,
>
> I am just confused by the use of "Dual" and "Duel". "Duel(ling)
> Alternators" sounds like some kind of weird techie cartoon. Or bad
> regulator design. "Duel(ling) Batteries" sounds like something navel
> (hah!) gunners would get involved in.
>
> I apologize for picking on your message - there are so many typos/usage
> problems posted. This message is no worse, though it did tickle my fancy
> more than some others have..
>
> Typos/usage problems can cause real headaches when communicating about
> topics that require some amount of precision. Some people might say
> "Well, they know what I mean. It's obvious." Sometimes it isn't.
> Sometimes it's the decimal place or the minus sign. Hmm.
>
> Here's to re-reading what you've typed before clicking the Send button.
> You don't have time to proof read? Do you have time to send clarifying
> messages when the first one you sent had errors/mistakes in it?
>
> And, if you're going to make a mistake because you don't have time to look
> up the correct spelling, make the mistake consistently..
>
> A useful (though overly laden with advertisements) resource:
>
> http://www.dictionary.com
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>
>> Greetings Fellow Builders,
>>
>> Have couple straight forward questions on sizing for a duel battery set
> up
>> in a F1 Rocket with high compression (10 to 1) AEIO540 Lycoming, duel
> Plasma III Ignitions, duel B&C alternators a 60 amp and a 20 amp.
>>
>> Right now for electical I'm just building the battery box which will be
> slightly different that the plans since I want to go with (2) B&C 12V 16
> A.H. batteries rather than the single 35 A.H. battery the plans call
> for.
>> I plan on building the (Z-14) Dual Battery, Duel Alternator, Split Bus
> type system out of Bob's book down the road in 6 months or so.
>>
>> Questions:
>> 1) will the duel battery set up 32 A.H. total still be enough in most
> cold
>> weather conditions maybe down below freezing 15 or 20 flights a year?
> I'm
>> running a B & C NCS206-149-12 starter.
>> 2) Any special mounting tips two be aware of with two batteries? Keep a
> space between them?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ralph Hardin Seattle Wa.
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
If the IO-240 is like the O200 (and other small Continentals with
alternator/generator drive) it might look like this:
http://www.bandc.biz/200gdesc.html
There's a forged/milled piece (?) a pair of rubber bushings and a stamped
sheet socket that together are used to transmit torque from the engine to
the alternator.
I think that in the O200 setup, the rubber bushings are kind of wear
items. They get squished flatter and flatter. The few airplanes I have
checked have a fair amount of slop between the gear and the alternator
rotor - caused by this squishing. I suppose that if the rubber
deteriorated far enough it might cause the drive fingers to fail...
Unfortunately, I think if that happens it will probably drop metal into
the accessory case. :(
Aircraft spruce has the parts for the alternator drive:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/generatorattparts.php
Again, I don't know if any of these parts are compatible with the IO-240..
The IO-240 might have more in common with the IO-360.
Matt-
>
>
> Hello,
> Yesterday during flight my alternator quit charging. It is a Ford design
> with a Continental part # 633661 and using a Zeftronics R15VOL regulator
> (which is showing a green light on it's self diagnostic system). It is a
> direct drive on the rear of the engine. I am currently checking
> voltage/ohms, etc.
>
> I noticed today that the alternator cooling fan does not turn when the
> crankshaft is rotated by hand or when the engine is running. Does this
> mean something mechanical has broken and my failure to charge is actually
> caused by the alternator not turning? I have read about a gear coupling
> on some larger enginesbut cant find any info regarding the
> alternator set up on the IO-240. Any info regarding my failed system
> would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
>
> Travis :)
>
> --------
> Travis Rayner
> Mobile, AL
> Skystar Vixen
> N-789DF
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77430#77430
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "springcanyon" <springcanyon(at)methow.com> |
Hello Mr Hardin,
I am just confused by the use of "Dual" and "Duel". "Duel(ling)
Alternators" sounds like some kind of weird techie cartoon. Or bad
regulator design. "Duel(ling) Batteries" sounds like something navel
(hah!) gunners would get involved in.
Matt, I take responsibility for beginning the "duel." I guess there are
cases where spell checker won't make up for my lack of proof-reading or
spelling ability. Once it gets into a thread it seems to take on a life of
its own. I certainly didn't mean to start a verbal "duel." I am much more
interested in learning how to install and wire an airplane with "dual"
alternators and "dual" batteries. I stand corrected. Thanks for the link.
Don Owens
http://www.dictionary.com
Best regards,
Matt-
--
1:40 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Who is "Matt Dralle" & What Are "The Lists"? [Please |
Read]
Dear Listers,
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
11/28/2006
Hello Travis, You most probably have a failure of the elastomeric coupling
drive of the alternator.
TCM Service Bulletin SB95-3B describes this coupling in detail and I have
attached a copy of that SB to this email. If you can not see it please let
me know and we'll work on another way to get it to you.
Buying a replacement coupling from TCM is very expensive. There is an outfit
in Texas that rebuilds them and will sell you one for a cheaper price. Try
Drake Air Inc at 800-542-6899. They may also know it as ATA Number DAP-1016.
http://www.drakeair.com/details.asp?id=635796
According to the IO-240 part manual the IO-240 uses the one piece P/N 635796
one piece coupling. I don't see that coupling as being available from
Aircraft Spruce, but you could check with them.
Please let me know if I can be of further help.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net>
Hello,
Yesterday during flight my alternator quit charging. It is a Ford design
with
a Continental part # 633661 and using a Zeftronics R15VOL regulator (which
is
showing a green light on it's self diagnostic system). It is a direct drive
on
the rear of the engine. I am currently checking voltage/ohms, etc.
I noticed today that the alternator cooling fan does not turn when the
crankshaft
is rotated by hand or when the engine is running. Does this mean something
mechanical has broken and my failure to charge is actually caused by the
alternator
not turning? I have read about a gear coupling on some larger enginesbut
cant find any info regarding the alternator set up on the IO-240. Any info
regarding my failed system would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in
advance!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
>Comments/Questions: Bob,
>
>I am installing a DeltaHawk diesel engine in my homebuilt and they have
>decided to go with a 28 VDC starter and alternator. I have already
>purchased most of my avionics in 14 VDC. I can buy a step-down
>transformer from Aircraft Spruce, but is there a good way to run parallel
>14 V batteries for power and still use the 28 V alternator for
>charging? Seems like I'm between a rock and a hard place.
Yup, your sure are! There's no graceful way to
do this. The best solution is to use 2 batteries
in series for cranking, change to parallel for
operating and running a 14v alternator.
bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
| From: | "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net> |
Thanks for the information! I have sent Drake Air an email regarding the drive
coupling. In order to remove the alternator I have to pull the engine! ...nothing
is ever easy! Again, thanks to all for the input and support!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77593#77593
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
Good Morning OC,
May I add a comment?
If someone does have a slipping Elastomeric coupling,
don't let it be discarded.
They can be refurbished for about one third the cost
of a new coupling.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
--- bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
> 11/28/2006
>
> Hello Travis, You most probably have a failure of
> the elastomeric coupling
> drive of the alternator.
>
> TCM Service Bulletin SB95-3B describes this coupling
> in detail and I have
> attached a copy of that SB to this email. If you can
> not see it please let
> me know and we'll work on another way to get it to
> you.
>
> Buying a replacement coupling from TCM is very
> expensive. There is an outfit
> in Texas that rebuilds them and will sell you one
> for a cheaper price. Try
> Drake Air Inc at 800-542-6899. They may also know it
> as ATA Number DAP-1016.
> http://www.drakeair.com/details.asp?id=635796
>
> According to the IO-240 part manual the IO-240 uses
> the one piece P/N 635796
> one piece coupling. I don't see that coupling as
> being available from
> Aircraft Spruce, but you could check with them.
>
> Please let me know if I can be of further help.
>
> OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in
> gathering knowledge.
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Continental IO-240:
> Alternator quit working
> From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net>
>
> Hello,
> Yesterday during flight my alternator quit charging.
> It is a Ford design
> with
> a Continental part # 633661 and using a Zeftronics
> R15VOL regulator (which
> is
> showing a green light on it's self diagnostic
> system). It is a direct drive
> on
> the rear of the engine. I am currently checking
> voltage/ohms, etc.
>
> I noticed today that the alternator cooling fan does
> not turn when the
> crankshaft
> is rotated by hand or when the engine is running.
> Does this mean something
> mechanical has broken and my failure to charge is
> actually caused by the
> alternator
> not turning? I have read about a gear coupling on
> some larger enginesbut
> cant find any info regarding the alternator set up
> on the IO-240. Any info
> regarding my failed system would be greatly
> appreciated! Thanks in
> advance!
>
> Travis :)
>
> --------
> Travis Rayner
> Mobile, AL
> Skystar Vixen
> N-789DF
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot heater performance |
Anyone,
I'm not underdstanding a point in the
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Pitot_Heater/Gauging_Pitot_Heater_Pe
rformance.pdf on Bob's website...namely that "If you are considering an
AN5814 heated pitot tube installtion, the data gathered suggests that
the tube be wired with 14AWG in a metal airplane and perhaps 12AWG in a
plastic airplane."
SO - why perhaps 12AWG in a plastic airplane....?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Sizing |
Hi Ralph,
Spelling issues aside, I'm curious why you're putting a Z-14 in a Rocket? Will
you be flying lots of IFR, or is there another reason?
Thanks,
Marc
--------
Marc
RV-7, flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77642#77642
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <William.P.Dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Competely Off topic, but Nifty |
I've been busy working on my electric drag bike lately, instead of my
rotary RV-7. That is why I have been silent on the list lately.
This has absolutely nothing to do with rotary aircraft, but I figured
since it is fun for me, it would be enjoyable for other
high-performance/electronics nuts as well.
A group of us laptop-toting, pocket protector nerds managed to impress
the ultimate "tough room" of beer swigging tattooed bikers at the All
Harley Drag Racing Association season finale at Las Vegas Drag Strip. We
are the only Non-Harley to run at the Las Vegas event, ever in history.
We set a record while we were at it.
Video on YouTube (Watch us plasma a motor on the finish line):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpAZci9m0
Fact Sheet
http://www.killacycle.com/KillaCycleFactSheet.pdf
A few pictures:
http://www.killacycle.com/BurnOut.JPG
http://www.killacycle.com/Speed.JPG
http://www.killacycle.com/Launch.JPG
Time Slips
http://www.killacycle.com/TopTimeSlips.JPG
Let me know if you need more info.
Now you understand why you haven't heard from me lately. :-)
Bill Dube'
bike(at)killacycle.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
| From: | "Mike@Crossbow" <msmith(at)xbow.com> |
Malcolm,
If you are having trouble with your Crossbow NAV425EX, please contact us directly.
Crossbow is committed to our customers and we will do everything in our power
to ensure that you are receiving proper operation from your AHRS. Since
we started the upgrade program, we have had dozens of these units completed and
have not had any further problems with the NAV425.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith(at)xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77656#77656
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson(at)showmeproductions.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
Will you confirm that your test sites are now trouble free? I would really
like to get these units working properly.
Malcolm.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mike@Crossbow
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 1:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Homebrew AHRS?
-->
Malcolm,
If you are having trouble with your Crossbow NAV425EX, please contact us
directly. Crossbow is committed to our customers and we will do everything
in our power to ensure that you are receiving proper operation from your
AHRS. Since we started the upgrade program, we have had dozens of these
units completed and have not had any further problems with the NAV425.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith(at)xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77656#77656
--
4:00 AM
--
4:00 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | basic Ford alternator wiring questions |
I'm finally free to experiment with my new "Coyote" project with a Lyc. 320.
I will be using the regular "Cessna" alternator/VR at least to begin with
(day vfr with electric starter/minimal avionics), basically a copy of my
Cardinal to start. My confusion starts when I examine the Cessna alternator
wiring:
My certified Cardinal has the same style alternator, wired as follows (all
wires are shielded):
#8 from alt. A+ lug to Alt breaker, shield grounded to alt. case only
#8 from alt ground lug to firewall bolt, shield at each end tied to end
terminal
#18 from alt Field lug to VR F lug, shield grounded to alt case and
firewall bolt
#18 from alt A+ lug to VR A+ lug, shield grounded to alt case and firewall
bolt
#18 from VR S lug to square metal filter lug to power buss, shield grounded
to firewall bolt and again next to filter, shield end at power buss floats
The above is per the factory manual, except for the shielded #8 ground wire,
the Cessna manual shows an unshielded #18.
I assume the factory used shielded wire for abrasion protection and/or noise
protection, and that the #8 shielded ground wire was an undocumented later
field change?
Questions:
1. I understand the Connection to say that shielding alternator/VR wiring
is not necessary for noise protection, did I miss something?
2. Does a shielded ground wire create any noise problem potential? If the
engine ground straps are in good shape, is there any reason for the #8 ground
from alternator to firewall? Or for any separate ground wire from the
alternator, inasumch as the alternator is bolted to the engine with all metal
bolts (no insulated washers)?
3. Is there any reason to run the A+ wire from the alternator to the VR A+,
I would prefer to run a shorter wire from the VR A+ to the alternator side
of the A+ alternator fuse on the firewall (1 foot of wire on the firewall
instead of 4 feet of wire running beside the hot engine)?
4. Is there a need for wire protection, by shielding or otherwise, since it
runs next to the hot engine from the alternator?
5. Skycrafters sells a high temp "Varglass" sleeving advertised as being
rated to 200 degrees C. Is this an appropriate protection for the wires? I
can't find any information on the internet.
6. What temp rating should I use for the wires running next to the engine?
7. Simply, is the following good practice for a Ford style alt/vr: all
unshielded:
#8 "A+" (alt to big fuse); #18 "F" (alt to VR); #18 VR "S" (VR to power
buss); #18 VR "A+" (VR to alt side of big fuse)?
This seems less complicated than my Cardinal. Thank you. Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | re: Basic Ford alternator wiring questions |
I'm finally free to experiment with my new "Coyote" project with a Lyc.
320. I will be using the regular "Cessna" alternator/VR at least to begin
with (day vfr with electric starter/minimal avionics), basically a copy of
my Cardinal to start. My confusion starts when I examine the Cessna
alternator wiring:
My certified Cardinal has the same style alternator, wired as follows (all
wires are shielded):
#8 from alt. A+ lug to Alt breaker, shield grounded to alt. case only
#8 from alt ground lug to firewall bolt, shield at each end tied to end
terminal
#18 from alt Field lug to VR F lug, shield grounded to alt case and
firewall bolt
#18 from alt A+ lug to VR A+ lug, shield grounded to alt case and firewall bolt
#18 from VR S lug to square metal filter lug to power buss, shield grounded
to firewall bolt and again next to filter, shield end at power buss floats
The above is per the factory manual, except for the shielded #8 ground
wire, the Cessna manual shows an unshielded #18.
I assume the factory used shielded wire for abrasion protection and/or
noise protection, and that the #8 shielded ground wire was an undocumented
later field change?
Questions:
1. I understand the Connection to say that shielding alternator/VR wiring
is not necessary for noise protection, did I miss something?
No, you didn't. I was a tech writer at Cessna when the
shielding protocols were first adopted on the single engine
alternator installations. A prophylactic combination of
"good things" were sprinkled onto some noisy airplanes where
alternator noise was heard in the new ADF installations. The
noise was reduced or eliminated and the practice adopted.
There were NO formal studies as to the operating characteristics
or effectiveness of any particular "good thing". The guy doing
the work was a PhD physicist but he had no test equipment and
zero experience with EMC issues. Nobody in the local industry
did. Beech went on to acquire extensive testing facilities
and experience but the roots of curiosity never took hold
at Cessna's single-engine plant.
2. Does a shielded ground wire create any noise problem potential? If the
engine ground straps are in good shape, is there any reason for the #8
ground from alternator to firewall? Or for any separate ground wire from
the alternator, inasumch as the alternator is bolted to the engine with all
metal bolts (no insulated washers)?
Multiple ground wires give rise to dreaded DC GROUND LOOP
and while they don't obviously "hurt" in most cases, they
never help either. Bolting the alternator to the engine
and strapping the engine to a single-point ground on
the firewall is sufficient.
3. Is there any reason to run the A+ wire from the alternator to the VR
A+, I would prefer to run a shorter wire from the VR A+ to the alternator
side of the A+ alternator fuse on the firewall (1 foot of wire on the
firewall instead of 4 feet of wire running beside the hot engine)?
I presume you're talking about a remote sense wire from
the regulator. Cessna adopted remote sensing protocols
in their regulator specs in the 80's and attached (+)
and (-) sense wires directly to terminals on the alternator.
The notion was that should an alternator experience
an electrical disconnect downstream, that remote sensing
at the alternator would prevent an unstable or runaway
condition. Risks for wiring as you've described are
not high . . . and you concerns for "wires next to hot
engines" are not operable. Tefzel wire is quite content
in the engine compartment compared to the nylon/PVC or
nylon/dacron/PVC wire we were using before Tefzel.
4. Is there a need for wire protection, by shielding or otherwise, since
it runs next to the hot engine from the alternator?
No.
5. Skycrafters sells a high temp "Varglass" sleeving advertised as being
rated to 200 degrees C. Is this an appropriate protection for the
wires? I can't find any information on the internet.
There are a variety of sleeving materials offered
to satisfy a variety of protection concerns but for
Tefzel wire under the cowl there are few if any
concerns. Radiant heating from exhaust stacks are
the high-stress heat sources. Keep your wires and
accessories away from those antagonists and good
order will exist under the cowl.
6. What temp rating should I use for the wires running next to the engine?
Tefzel is rated for continuous operation at 150C
and is quite sufficient for the appplication we're
discussing.
7. Simply, is the following good practice for a Ford style alt/vr: all
unshielded:
#8 "A+" (alt to big fuse); #18 "F" (alt to VR); #18 VR "S" (VR to power
buss); #18 VR "A+" (VR to alt side of big fuse)?
This seems less complicated than my Cardinal. Thank you. Skip Simpson
Keep in mind that what appears to be "more complicated"
may have roots in rational design decisions (like the
remote sensing at the alternator terminals) while
others are wild ass guesses (like the shielding). Just
because it has been done on tens of thousands of "certified"
airplanes does not validate the science behind the
practice. Operational risks for "rewiring" as you've
suggested are very low. Shielding any of these wires
is a waste of $time$ and empty weight budgets.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
Bob,
The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
volts for operation.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
>Comments/Questions: Bob,
>
>I am installing a DeltaHawk diesel engine in my homebuilt and they have
>decided to go with a 28 VDC starter and alternator. I have already
>purchased most of my avionics in 14 VDC. I can buy a step-down
>transformer from Aircraft Spruce, but is there a good way to run
parallel
>14 V batteries for power and still use the 28 V alternator for
>charging? Seems like I'm between a rock and a hard place.
Yup, your sure are! There's no graceful way to
do this. The best solution is to use 2 batteries
in series for cranking, change to parallel for
operating and running a 14v alternator.
bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
>
>Bob,
>
>The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
>volts for operation.
>
>Regards, George
Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
issue.
Depending on how much current the engine needs, it
might be better to use a small 28v battery and step-up
inverter as opposed to a 14 volt battery and step
down inverter to support already purchased avioncs.
To craft decision right may take as much engineering
$time$ as the delta-dollars to sell the 14-volt
goodies and buy 28-volt versions.
Life can get complicated sometimes!
I had a weird phone call yesterday from a guy
building a Seawind who was planning to install a
PT-6 engine. He started out asking where to buy
100A fuses and I steered him onto the usual suppliers.
The conversation expanded to wire sizing and system
architecture for engines with starter-generators and
it was obvious that he had little knowledge and no
experience with the issues. Yet as I attempted to
steer him in the right direction, he insisted on
arguing with my suggestions. I kept telling him that
I wasn't going to argue with him and that our
conversation was taking time from my work for a paying
customer.
He kept asking questions and then arm-wrestling
with the answers. I finally suggested that he hire
a professional to craft a wirebook for his airplane
and offered by services at $150/hour. He replied,
"For that kind of money I'll do it myself" whereupon
I opined, "Then I guess you don't need me" and hung up.
That's the first time I've ever had to forcibly
terminate a conversation with a builder. I do
wish the fellow well but I'm not optimistic!
Some of life's complications are truly intractable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
| From: | "Mike@Crossbow" <msmith(at)xbow.com> |
Malcolm,
I can confirm that we have not seen a repeat of any of the items called out in
our service bulletin nor have we seen any new failures in the upgraded units.
We have over 30 of these units in the field and have not had any further problems
with the NAV425EX. If you are running the NAV425EX, we offer this update
for free and will do everything possible to minimize any down time to your aircraft.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith(at)xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77845#77845
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
| From: | "Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX" <Todd.Stovall(at)pentagon.af.mil> |
Michael,
I'm considering purchasing the OP Tech EFIS which uses the NAV420. Has
it suffered the same problems as the 425?
Thanks,
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mike@Crossbow
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Homebrew AHRS?
-->
Malcolm,
I can confirm that we have not seen a repeat of any of the items called
out in our service bulletin nor have we seen any new failures in the
upgraded units. We have over 30 of these units in the field and have
not had any further problems with the NAV425EX. If you are running the
NAV425EX, we offer this update for free and will do everything possible
to minimize any down time to your aircraft.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith(at)xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77845#77845
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
| From: | "Mike@Crossbow" <msmith(at)xbow.com> |
First, I would like to apologize for hijacking the thread. That wasn't my intention.
In reference to the original topic, what Malcolm and others have said
is completely correct. We are approached by customers occasionally that complain
that they could build the unit for far less because the parts are relatively
inexpensive. Yes, the parts aren't too expensive but the software is very
complicated and you will need to rely upon some sort of aiding (GPS, Kalman filtering,
Airspeed, etc..) to improve performance of an AHRS. MEMS gyro's without
this aiding are really not accurate enough for aviation in my opinion. By
the time you are done creating software and testing a fully functional unit you
would have saved a significant amount of money by purchasing a completed solution.
Now, if you want to create an AHRS for your personal enjoyment...then
yes it's probably worthwhile.
In regards to OP Tech, we have not seen any failures with the NAV420's that we
shipped to OP Tech, but a very large percentage of the ones that were shipped
to OP Tech were already updated with the latest hardware/firmware so we wouldn't
expect to see much. The early units that were shipped OP Tech have also come
back to be updated and we haven't been informed of any problems with those
units.
Crossbow is aware of the delay and inconvenience that we have put our NAV425EX
customers through and on behalf of Crossbow I would like to personally apologize
for the amount of time that it took to get this fix in place. We have been
updating these units since May of this year and are confident that the fixes
we have in place remedy all noted issues that are stated in the service bulletin.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith(at)xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77859#77859
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "gordon or marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com> |
| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
>-->
>
>Bob,
>
>The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
>volts for operation.
>
>Regards, George
Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
issue.
George/Bob: The fuel injection system on the Deltahawk is mechanical
(unless they have changed recently} so there are no electrical requirements
other than starting.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jtpackard(at)usfamily.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ratcheting crimp tool source |
For those looking for an inexpensive crimp tool that appears identical
to the one sold by B & C, check out Harbor Freight- item 93977. I
bought one today for $15
TJ
--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Martin & Chris" <av.8(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/28/06 |
I just came across this information regarding an auto starter motor adaptor.
Has any on the list seen this or used the plans ?
http://abianconi.hypermart.net/Starter-Adapter.html
Martin in Oz
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
| From: | "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net> |
I pulled the engine today for access to the alternator. There was one nut (top)
that was almost impossible to remove (ended up removing the starter for easier
access) on the alternator. The drive gear on the end of the alternator shaft
rotates freely! I have emailed Drake Air (also left them a voice mail...have
heard back from them) regarding their rebuilt units. This does not look like
a field serviceable part as shown in the Aircraft spruce book (doesn't look
the same)! I would welcome any contact names for parts suppliers/rebuilders
that would carry this part. I also realized today that I need to replace the
motor mount bushings!
Thanks again!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77940#77940
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Frank Stringham" <fstringham(at)hotmail.com> |
I am in the process of wiring the tail / wing strobes. I have grounded each
wire at the power pack location by bundeling them together and securing them
to the strobe power pack base. Now the ??? At the strobe end should the
ground wire be grounded at this point or taken back to the fairwall ground
block. Also the foil shield does it get any special treatment or just
terminated at each end with no attachment to the airframe.
TIA
Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring / fiberglassing RV7A
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends
list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
>Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:04 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
>
>
> >-->
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
> >volts for operation.
> >
> >Regards, George
>
> Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
> I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
> issue.
>
> George/Bob: The fuel injection system on the Deltahawk is mechanical
>(unless they have changed recently} so there are no electrical requirements
>other than starting.
Good to know. That makes integration of that engine a whole
lot easier! Thanks Gordon.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
>
>First, I would like to apologize for hijacking the thread.
Nobody "hijacks" anything if they have good
data to share . . .
> That wasn't my intention. In reference to the original topic, what
> Malcolm and others have said is completely correct. We are approached by
> customers occasionally that complain that they could build the unit for
> far less because the parts are relatively inexpensive. Yes, the parts
> aren't too expensive but the software is very complicated and you will
> need to rely upon some sort of aiding (GPS, Kalman filtering, Airspeed,
> etc..) to improve performance of an AHRS. MEMS gyro's without this
> aiding are really not accurate enough for aviation in my opinion. By the
> time you are done creating software and testing a fully functional unit
> you would have saved a significant amount of money by purchasing a
> completed solution. Now, if you want to create an AHRS for your personal
> enjoyment...then yes it's probably worthwhile.
>
>In regards to OP Tech, we have not seen any failures with the NAV420's
>that we shipped to OP Tech, but a very large percentage of the ones that
>were shipped to OP Tech were already updated with the latest
>hardware/firmware so we wouldn't expect to see much. The early units that
>were shipped OP Tech have also come back to be updated and we haven't been
>informed of any problems with those units.
>
>Crossbow is aware of the delay and inconvenience that we have put our
>NAV425EX customers through and on behalf of Crossbow I would like to
>personally apologize for the amount of time that it took to get this fix
>in place. We have been updating these units since May of this year and
>are confident that the fixes we have in place remedy all noted issues that
>are stated in the service bulletin.
Mike, thanks for monitoring the List and for
joining this conversation. Did we meet at
Raytheon's Missiles Division when Crossbow
came out to propose an AHRS for our AQM-37D
target upgrade?
I looked for my business cards from those meetings
but they were now quite some time ago . . . about
10 years I think.
bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/28/06 |
>
>
>I just came across this information regarding an auto starter motor adaptor.
>Has any on the list seen this or used the plans ?
>
>http://abianconi.hypermart.net/Starter-Adapter.html
>
>Martin in Oz
I've .pdf'ed the data package and posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Starters/Lycoming_Starter_Adapter.pdf
If anyone has a chance to try this out, please post
your discoveries here on the List.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: ratcheting crimp tool source |
>For those looking for an inexpensive crimp tool that appears identical to
>the one sold by B & C, check out Harbor Freight- item 93977. I bought one
>today for $15
>TJ
That's a good tool. I've checked them against
similar and it appears to be a member of the
clones for this style of tool. They're on sale
right now on the Harbor Freight website for
$10.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>I am in the process of wiring the tail / wing strobes. I have grounded
>each wire at the power pack location by bundeling them together and
>securing them to the strobe power pack base.
I'm not sure which wires your're referring to.
The cables from each tube assembly are usually 20AWG
twisted trios with a foil shield and drain-wire. You
ground each drain wire to the strobe power supply base.
All other wires ought to drop into pins on connectors
> Now the ??? At the strobe end should the ground wire be grounded at this
> point or taken back to the fairwall ground block. Also the foil shield
> does it get any special treatment or just terminated at each end with no
> attachment to the airframe.
Nothing attaches to the airframe at the tube end of
each cable. What does the installation drawings
for the strobe system show? The drawings should
be very explicit as to how each conductor in their
system is connected.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Well, its November 30th and that means three things...
1) Today I am now officially 43 years old... (arg...)
2) It marks that last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser!
3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year! :-)
If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and
no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support
their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way
to further the List operation and keep the bills paid.
I will be posting the List of Contributors next week, so make sure your name is
on it! :-)
Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly
appreciated.
List Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
11/30/2006
Hello Travis, You wrote: " I have emailed Drake Air (also left them a voice
mail...have
heard back from them) regarding their rebuilt units."
I am puzzled by your posting. Has Drake responded or not? Have you submitted
a RFQ (request for quote) using the form on their web site?
http://www.drakeair.com/rfq.asp?id=635796
Have you telephoned them? 1-800-542-6899
Usually they are very good about responding because they are sometimes
dealing with airplanes that are grounded and need parts sent quickly by
FedEx overnight or other fast means.
You wrote: " This does not look like a field serviceable part as shown in
the Aircraft spruce book (doesn't look the same)!"
You are right. There are two different versions of this coupling as
explained in the TCM service bulletin SB95-3B (copy attached). The IO-240
uses the one piece coupling P/N 635796 and the Aircraft Spruce catalog has
parts for the multipiece coupling.
You wrote: "The drive gear on the end of the alternator shaft rotates
freely!"
Have you removed the coupling from the alternator to ensure that the shaft
itself is not sheared and that just the elastomeric portion of the coupling
has failed? And that the alternator shaft is not seized?
You wrote: "I would welcome any contact names for parts suppliers/rebuilders
that would carry this part."
Any decent FBO or repair shop that orders parts from TCM should be able to
get the alternator coupling from a TCM parts distributor, but it will be
much more expensive than a rebuilt one from Drake. There may be other
rebuilders of this coupling, but I am not aware of them. I would lean harder
on Drake.
You wrote: "I also realized today that I need to replace the motor mount
bushings!"
The elastomeric bushings are part number 530740 and are available from
Aircraft Spruce.
Please let me know how you make out.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
PS: As mentioned by Old Bob, your old alternator coupling core is worth
money to Drake.
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net>
I pulled the engine today for access to the alternator. There was one nut
(top)
that was almost impossible to remove (ended up removing the starter for
easier
access) on the alternator. The drive gear on the end of the alternator
shaft
rotates freely! I have emailed Drake Air (also left them a voice
mail...have
heard back from them) regarding their rebuilt units. This does not look
like
a field serviceable part as shown in the Aircraft spruce book (doesn't look
the same)! I would welcome any contact names for parts suppliers/rebuilders
that would carry this part. I also realized today that I need to replace
the
motor mount bushings!
Thanks again!
Travis :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Travis Rayner" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
Looks like I missed a word! Have NOT heard back from them. I called
yesterday afternoon after returning from the airport. they were closed.
I will call them this morning. I have several leads on the part. TCM
lists it at $1659.32. Crazy! I have not removed the coupling yet. The
alternator turns freely (using the fan). The gear easily spins and
turns inside the coupling housing but the housing does not turn (only
when using the fan). Thanks for the TCM bulletin and the part #'s for
the bushings. Your help is sincerely appreciated!
Travis :)
----- Original Message -----
From: bakerocb(at)cox.net
To: flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net
Cc: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:43 AM
Subject: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working
11/30/2006
Hello Travis, You wrote: " I have emailed Drake Air (also left them a
voice
mail...have
heard back from them) regarding their rebuilt units."
I am puzzled by your posting. Has Drake responded or not? Have you
submitted
a RFQ (request for quote) using the form on their web site?
http://www.drakeair.com/rfq.asp?id=635796
Have you telephoned them? 1-800-542-6899
Usually they are very good about responding because they are sometimes
dealing with airplanes that are grounded and need parts sent quickly
by
FedEx overnight or other fast means.
You wrote: " This does not look like a field serviceable part as shown
in
the Aircraft spruce book (doesn't look the same)!"
You are right. There are two different versions of this coupling as
explained in the TCM service bulletin SB95-3B (copy attached). The
IO-240
uses the one piece coupling P/N 635796 and the Aircraft Spruce catalog
has
parts for the multipiece coupling.
You wrote: "The drive gear on the end of the alternator shaft rotates
freely!"
Have you removed the coupling from the alternator to ensure that the
shaft
itself is not sheared and that just the elastomeric portion of the
coupling
has failed? And that the alternator shaft is not seized?
You wrote: "I would welcome any contact names for parts
suppliers/rebuilders
that would carry this part."
Any decent FBO or repair shop that orders parts from TCM should be
able to
get the alternator coupling from a TCM parts distributor, but it will
be
much more expensive than a rebuilt one from Drake. There may be other
rebuilders of this coupling, but I am not aware of them. I would lean
harder
on Drake.
You wrote: "I also realized today that I need to replace the motor
mount
bushings!"
The elastomeric bushings are part number 530740 and are available from
Aircraft Spruce.
Please let me know how you make out.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
PS: As mentioned by Old Bob, your old alternator coupling core is
worth
money to Drake.
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit
working
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net>
I pulled the engine today for access to the alternator. There was one
nut
(top)
that was almost impossible to remove (ended up removing the starter
for
easier
access) on the alternator. The drive gear on the end of the
alternator
shaft
rotates freely! I have emailed Drake Air (also left them a voice
mail...have
heard back from them) regarding their rebuilt units. This does not
look
like
a field serviceable part as shown in the Aircraft spruce book (doesn't
look
the same)! I would welcome any contact names for parts
suppliers/rebuilders
that would carry this part. I also realized today that I need to
replace
the
motor mount bushings!
Thanks again!
Travis :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator Recommendations |
| From: | "Wingrider" <rwhitt3(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi, I am new to the Matronics newsgroups although I have been reading the post
for a while this is my first time writing in.
I'm building a Zenith 601HDS and will probably go with William Wynne's Corvair
conversion. I'm trying to figure my electrical loads before installing the landing
lights and closing up the wings and don't believe the typical JD garden tractor
alternator is sufficient for my application; I expect a full load amp draw
of between 35 and 40 amps. Maybe I'm way off base and maybe I shouldn't use
a pair of 100 watt off road lights for landing lights.
I'd like your recommendations for a small lightweight automotive alternator. From
what Ive read it sounds like I should stick with the three wire alternators
and shy away from the one wire versions but are there recommendations for specific
alternators?
There seems to be differing opinions on the whether the load dump issue is a real
concern or not. I understand Bob Nuckolls is working on a product to nullify
the concern with using internally regulated alternators. Is there any news on
this product at this time?
Attached is my initial swag at my electrical loads.
:D
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78118#78118
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ch601hds_electrical_loads_analysis1_106.xls
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
| From: | "George Braly" <gwbraly(at)gami.com> |
I sympathize with your conversation on the Seawind.
We get those phone calls around here on engine issues.
Usually they are all good. But sometimes - - somebody who is way behind
the power curve wants to engage in protracted debates over well settled
issues.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
>
>Bob,
>
>The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
>volts for operation.
>
>Regards, George
Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
issue.
Depending on how much current the engine needs, it
might be better to use a small 28v battery and step-up
inverter as opposed to a 14 volt battery and step
down inverter to support already purchased avioncs.
To craft decision right may take as much engineering
$time$ as the delta-dollars to sell the 14-volt
goodies and buy 28-volt versions.
Life can get complicated sometimes!
I had a weird phone call yesterday from a guy
building a Seawind who was planning to install a
PT-6 engine. He started out asking where to buy
100A fuses and I steered him onto the usual suppliers.
The conversation expanded to wire sizing and system
architecture for engines with starter-generators and
it was obvious that he had little knowledge and no
experience with the issues. Yet as I attempted to
steer him in the right direction, he insisted on
arguing with my suggestions. I kept telling him that
I wasn't going to argue with him and that our
conversation was taking time from my work for a paying
customer.
He kept asking questions and then arm-wrestling
with the answers. I finally suggested that he hire
a professional to craft a wirebook for his airplane
and offered by services at $150/hour. He replied,
"For that kind of money I'll do it myself" whereupon
I opined, "Then I guess you don't need me" and hung up.
That's the first time I've ever had to forcibly
terminate a conversation with a builder. I do
wish the fellow well but I'm not optimistic!
Some of life's complications are truly intractable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator Recommendations |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Personally I don't have an issue with one wire alternators, I ran one in my Zodiac
for over 400 hours and it worked flawlessly. This is assuming you don't have
hugely expensive avionics stack either...In my IFR RV7 I still run a one wire
but have an Overvolt circuit and contactor...But I still don't expect any real
issues.
Bob will point out that many doggy old spam cans are running alternators that came
out of the Ark!
Anyway, the homebuilders choice for many years has been the 1987 Suzuki Samuri
Alternator..Its a real gem, lightwieght, powerful (55amps in theory) and extremely
reliable...The only time mine acted up was when the back of the alt was continually
sprayed with oil that worked itsway to the brushes, then it became
intermittent.
Replaced the brushes and it was fine.
As to your loads, you really don't need to assume your landing lights are part
of your running loads as these should only be used intermittently...Having said
that, if your running electric fuel pumps only then there is a risk of leaving
your LL on and pulling down the battery voltage...I would use a small LED as
a warning that you have your lights on.
The Suzuki alternator will fit your requirements very nicely however.
Regards
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:06 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Recommendations
-->
Hi, I am new to the Matronics newsgroups although I have been reading the post
for a while this is my first time writing in.
I'm building a Zenith 601HDS and will probably go with William Wynne's Corvair
conversion. I'm trying to figure my electrical loads before installing the landing
lights and closing up the wings and don't believe the typical JD garden tractor
alternator is sufficient for my application; I expect a full load amp draw
of between 35 and 40 amps. Maybe I'm way off base and maybe I shouldn't use
a pair of 100 watt off road lights for landing lights.
I'd like your recommendations for a small lightweight automotive alternator. From
what Ive read it sounds like I should stick with the three wire alternators
and shy away from the one wire versions but are there recommendations for specific
alternators?
There seems to be differing opinions on the whether the load dump issue is a real
concern or not. I understand Bob Nuckolls is working on a product to nullify
the concern with using internally regulated alternators. Is there any news on
this product at this time?
Attached is my initial swag at my electrical loads.
:D
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78118#78118
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ch601hds_electrical_loads_analysis1_106.xls
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <William.P.Dube(at)noaa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: 28v diesel engine |
Reminds me of the Monty Python routine "I came here for an argument." :-)
Also, they say that arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling
with a pig in the mud. You soon will realize that the pig is actually
enjoying it.
Bill D.
George Braly wrote:
>
>
>I sympathize with your conversation on the Seawind.
>
>We get those phone calls around here on engine issues.
>
>Usually they are all good. But sometimes - - somebody who is way behind
>the power curve wants to engage in protracted debates over well settled
>issues.
>
>Regards, George
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:04 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Bob,
>>
>>The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
>>volts for operation.
>>
>>Regards, George
>>
>>
>
> Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
> I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
> issue.
>
> Depending on how much current the engine needs, it
> might be better to use a small 28v battery and step-up
> inverter as opposed to a 14 volt battery and step
> down inverter to support already purchased avioncs.
>
> To craft decision right may take as much engineering
> $time$ as the delta-dollars to sell the 14-volt
> goodies and buy 28-volt versions.
>
> Life can get complicated sometimes!
>
> I had a weird phone call yesterday from a guy
> building a Seawind who was planning to install a
> PT-6 engine. He started out asking where to buy
> 100A fuses and I steered him onto the usual suppliers.
>
> The conversation expanded to wire sizing and system
> architecture for engines with starter-generators and
> it was obvious that he had little knowledge and no
> experience with the issues. Yet as I attempted to
> steer him in the right direction, he insisted on
> arguing with my suggestions. I kept telling him that
> I wasn't going to argue with him and that our
> conversation was taking time from my work for a paying
> customer.
>
> He kept asking questions and then arm-wrestling
> with the answers. I finally suggested that he hire
> a professional to craft a wirebook for his airplane
> and offered by services at $150/hour. He replied,
> "For that kind of money I'll do it myself" whereupon
> I opined, "Then I guess you don't need me" and hung up.
>
> That's the first time I've ever had to forcibly
> terminate a conversation with a builder. I do
> wish the fellow well but I'm not optimistic!
> Some of life's complications are truly intractable.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
>
>Hi, I am new to the Matronics newsgroups although I have been reading the
>post for a while this is my first time writing in.
>
>I'm building a Zenith 601HDS and will probably go with William Wynne's
>Corvair conversion. I'm trying to figure my electrical loads before
>installing the landing lights and closing up the wings and don't believe
>the typical JD garden tractor alternator is sufficient for my application;
>I expect a full load amp draw of between 35 and 40 amps. Maybe I'm way off
>base and maybe I shouldn't use a pair of 100 watt off road lights for
>landing lights.
>
>I'd like your recommendations for a small lightweight automotive
>alternator. From what Ive read it sounds like I should stick with the
>three wire alternators and shy away from the one wire versions but are
>there recommendations for specific alternators?
>
>There seems to be differing opinions on the whether the load dump issue is
>a real concern or not. I understand Bob Nuckolls is working on a product
>to nullify the concern with using internally regulated alternators. Is
>there any news on this product at this time?
I've acquired an alternator drive stand and hope
to spend some time getting it wired up over the
xmas holidays. In any case, the internally regulated
automotive alternator is the wave of the future and
certainly the better value. Drive ahead with any
alternator choice that meets your power requirements
knowing that any enhancements to the alternator's
operability are easily added on at a later time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
Hi Rich
FWIW I run an electonic ignition, EFI, and two 38 watt halogen projector
lights wig wagging, but not much in the way of avionics and I typically
see just over 20 amps daytime and about 26 amps when I add the nav
lights. Even at night with the two 38 watt lights on continuously plus
two 50 watt landing lights for approach, my wee 40 amp nippondenso (with
a homemade large pulley to slow it) still seems to maintain voltage.
I've never seen the low voltage warning on the ground either although I
usually kill the two 50 watt landing lights while taxiing. While in
theory it is fine if the landing lights draw down the battery a tiny bit
on approach, it would be a distraction to get a low voltage warning on
final. You would either learn to ignore the warning (not good) or
disable it when the lights are on which is also not good. My 88 watts
per wing of halogen landing and taxi lights is perhaps more than needed
but it is appreciated on black nights on runways with no approach lights.
Now I also run a 20 amp John Deere PM alternator on a separate system
which drives backup EFI, ignition, and strobe lights. It really does put
out 20 amps in flight but its output falls off rapidly such that it will
not maintain voltage with all those things running during normal ground
handling. So while a single John Deere is adequate for daytime operation
without exterior lights, you are correct that it would not be very
satisfactory for ground running at night for me. With a carb and no EFI
electric fuel pumps the 20 amps would be fine I think but exterior
lighting would have to be watched on the ground at night and I'd also be
looking for LED nav lights. I don't know what your Fujitsu thing is but
my conventional nav lights draw a lot more than the 1 amp on your
spreadsheet. My ignition also draws a couple of amps. One amp seems a
bit low for ignition. Electronic ignition may draw considerably more at
high rpm than at idle. The corvair would likely spin the John Deere
faster than I am though so that might help.
BTW I don't see any real difference between a "one wire" alternator and
a automotive internally regulated alternator. The warning light function
usually doesn't make a good low voltage warning. The ability to remote
sense the voltage that some regulators have doesn't make much difference
to us. The ability to delay turnng on the alternator until after engine
start also has little value and is not normally used. We know that some
of the oem alternators can be turned off but many of us don't believe
one can count on that function either once a regulator has failed - so
again not much value to that.
Ken
Wingrider wrote:
>
>Hi, I am new to the Matronics newsgroups although I have been reading the post
for a while this is my first time writing in.
>
>I'm building a Zenith 601HDS and will probably go with William Wynne's Corvair
conversion. I'm trying to figure my electrical loads before installing the landing
lights and closing up the wings and don't believe the typical JD garden
tractor alternator is sufficient for my application; I expect a full load amp
draw of between 35 and 40 amps. Maybe I'm way off base and maybe I shouldn't use
a pair of 100 watt off road lights for landing lights.
>
>I'd like your recommendations for a small lightweight automotive alternator. From
what I"ve read it sounds like I should stick with the three wire alternators
and shy away from the one wire versions but are there recommendations for specific
alternators?
>
>There seems to be differing opinions on the whether the load dump issue is a real
concern or not. I understand Bob Nuckolls is working on a product to nullify
the concern with using internally regulated alternators. Is there any news
on this product at this time?
>
>Attached is my initial swag at my electrical loads.
>
> :D
>
>--------
>Rich Whittington
>Tullahoma, TN
>Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | P-lead shield ground |
Should the shielding on p-leads for Bendix mags be grounded at both
ends or just at the "Off-Left-Right-Both-Start" switch end?
Thanks
Neil
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric
Connection by 2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it
would be part # S-700-2-70 ).
Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil> |
Carlos -
I believe I received a similar switch as part of my fuselage kit.
neal
RV-7 N8ZG
For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric Connection by
2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it would be part #
S-700-2-70 ).
Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
Carlos
Carlos -
I believe I received a similar switch as part
of my
fuselage kit.
neal
RV-7 N8ZG
For my new (remodelled) flaps system I
need an
(ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole toggle switch which is designated by
Bob Nuckols AeroElectric Connection by 2 -70 , and the B&C
website seems not to sell it ( it would be part # S-700-2-70
).
Anybody knows a source for that
particular
switch?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: P-lead shield ground |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Essentially a recurring question. Discussion on this topic can be found
in the archive quite easily. Follow the link at the bottom of each
aeroelectric email for access to the archive search tool.
An answer:
On the magneto end, the shield should be connected to the body of the
magneto (sometimes integral to the "P" lead connector) and the center
conductor should be connected to the "P" lead.
On the switch end, each shield should be connected to the "G" terminal of
the switch. The center conductor should be connected to the "L" or "R"
terminal. NO additional connections should be made (no "grounds" per se).
A picture is worth a bunch: See Figure Z-26 in the latest Z appendix
downloadable here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Should the shielding on p-leads for Bendix mags be grounded at both
> ends or just at the "Off-Left-Right-Both-Start" switch end?
>
> Thanks
> Neil
>
>
> --
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Carlos -
>
>I believe I received a similar switch as part of my fuselage kit.
>
>neal
>RV-7 N8ZG
>
>
>For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
>toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric Connection
>by 2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it would be part #
>S-700-2-70 ).
>Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
Newark has one at:
http://tinyurl.com/soyjx
The Microswitch cross is 2NT1-70.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch source
>>For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
>>toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric Connection
>>by 2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it would be part #
>>S-700-2-70 ).
>>Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
>
>
> Newark has one at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/soyjx
>
> The Microswitch cross is 2NT1-70.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob
Now, who is the American soul (fellow homebuilder) who is willing to do a
favor to a Portuguese soul who needs that switch ($24.55) but doesn't want
to pay Newark's $25 handling fee (only for international customers in a sale
less than $100) and maybe another $30 or $40 (around 50% in taxes over
invoice value, including hf and freight cost) to the customs in Portugal?
If someone can do it, please contact me off-list.
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Seems like Neal was looking for a switch with momentary contacts - maybe
like (also at Newark):
http://tinyurl.com/uvv93
If that one isn't quite right, there are other (on)-on-(on) switches at
Newark, and their website is pretty nicely organized for finding things.
Matt-
>
>
>
>>Carlos -
>>
>>I believe I received a similar switch as part of my fuselage kit.
>>
>>neal
>>RV-7 N8ZG
>>
>>
>>For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
>>toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric Connection
>>by 2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it would be part #
>>S-700-2-70 ).
>>Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
>
>
> Newark has one at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/soyjx
>
> The Microswitch cross is 2NT1-70.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Sorry Carlos,
I misidentified the original poster of this switch request (what was I
just saying about proof reading posts? :| )..
You might try Googling the Honeywell part number to find a vendor with a
more favorable shipping policy than Newark has.. I searched for
"2TL1-70 Honeywell" (the momentary contact switch)
.. and found a bunch of places that sell it (some in France and Italy if
that helps).
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:24 PM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch source
>
>>>For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
>>>toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric
>>> Connection
>>>by 2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it would be part #
>>>S-700-2-70 ).
>>>Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
>>
>>
>> Newark has one at:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/soyjx
>>
>> The Microswitch cross is 2NT1-70.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
> Thanks Bob
>
> Now, who is the American soul (fellow homebuilder) who is willing to do a
> favor to a Portuguese soul who needs that switch ($24.55) but doesn't want
> to pay Newark's $25 handling fee (only for international customers in a
> sale
> less than $100) and maybe another $30 or $40 (around 50% in taxes over
> invoice value, including hf and freight cost) to the customs in Portugal?
> If someone can do it, please contact me off-list.
>
> Carlos
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
| From: | "Wingrider" <rwhitt3(at)hotmail.com> |
Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The Fujitsu is
a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation using PocketFMS
and Voyager.
My nav lights are LED's that's why the amp draw is so low. Now I just have to figure
out how to mount an alternator to the rear of the Corvair.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78303#78303
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
Rich,
I just went through this for my Bearhawk. I spent a lot of time trying to
find a Samurai alternator; they are no longer available new. Niagra Airparts
no longer carries the ND, either. I did find and ND 45 amp internally
regulated alternator for $175 at:
http://www.litechracesystems.com/Products.html
It arrived this week and is a new ND part no. 18504-6220.
Good luck,
Mike C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wingrider
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations
Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The Fujitsu
is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation using
PocketFMS and Voyager.
My nav lights are LED's that's why the amp draw is so low. Now I just have
to figure out how to mount an alternator to the rear of the Corvair.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78303#78303
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
Why does this need to be an (on) on (on) switch instead of the plain old
common (on)off(on) flap switch? I guess I'm not aware of a flap system in
an RV that requires such a configuration and why a standard old flap switch
that we all have used on our RV's (supplied by Van's, us, etc..) for years
wouldn't work!? Please enlighten me....I'm just curious!
Cheers,
Stein.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
>L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:25 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch source
>
>
>
>
>
>>Carlos -
>>
>>I believe I received a similar switch as part of my fuselage kit.
>>
>>neal
>>RV-7 N8ZG
>>
>>
>>For my new (remodelled) flaps system I need an (ON)-ON-(ON) Double Pole
>>toggle switch which is designated by Bob Nuckols AeroElectric Connection
>>by 2 -70 , and the B&C website seems not to sell it ( it would be part #
>>S-700-2-70 ).
>>Anybody knows a source for that particular switch?
>
>
> Newark has one at:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/soyjx
>
> The Microswitch cross is 2NT1-70.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
Answers in order of post appearance :-) :
Matt
No problem with your misidentification. I will google it and try to find a
more favourable vendor.
Kevin
Thanks very much for your offer. If I cannot find a better source, I'll come
back and ask for your help from Canada.
Stein
No wonder you're curious. The reason I need this kind of switch is because
I'm installing the Flaps Positioning System that I bought from Aircraft
Extras, which calls for 3 switches : 1 selector switch between Automatic and
Manual operation ( SPDT On-On switch ), 1 Automatic Flaps switch ("normal"
SPDT (On)-Off-(On) ), which operates the flaps to stop where you programmed
it and automatically positions the elevator trim, and finally a Manual Flaps
switch, which is a back-up or emergency switch, to operate the flaps when
and if the system fails. This last switch connects the flap motor directly
to +12V and must be acomplished by 2 SPDT On-None-(On) switches, or (I
figured it out, I hope I'm right) by 1 DPDT (On)-On-(On), wich is what I'm
looking for
Richard
I surely got the flaps switch from Van's (although I couldn't find it -
well, I got it some 4 years ago), but as you can see from the above
explanation, it doesn't suit my need, unless I use a double relay board.
Also, thanks for your offer to get the switch for me. I'll get back if I
can't find it.
Aren't this internet groups so GREAT to get help and knowledge!!?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
>
>
>Answers in order of post appearance :-) :
>
>Matt
>No problem with your misidentification. I will google it and try to find a
>more favourable vendor.
>
>Kevin
>Thanks very much for your offer. If I cannot find a better source, I'll
>come back and ask for your help from Canada.
>
>Stein
>No wonder you're curious. The reason I need this kind of switch is because
>I'm installing the Flaps Positioning System that I bought from Aircraft
>Extras, which calls for 3 switches : 1 selector switch between Automatic
>and Manual operation ( SPDT On-On switch ), 1 Automatic Flaps switch
>("normal" SPDT (On)-Off-(On) ), which operates the flaps to stop where you
>programmed it and automatically positions the elevator trim, and finally a
>Manual Flaps switch, which is a back-up or emergency switch, to operate
>the flaps when and if the system fails. This last switch connects the flap
>motor directly to +12V and must be acomplished by 2 SPDT On-None-(On)
>switches, or (I figured it out, I hope I'm right) by 1 DPDT (On)-On-(On),
>wich is what I'm looking for
Hmmmm . . . how likely is it that an inability to move
flaps in this airplane presents a hazard to outcome of
the flight?
I am exceedingly suspicious of systems offered to the
OBAM community that add any kind of automation to the
movement of aerodynamic surfaces with motors. In the
heavy iron business we have rigorous protocols for
the design and testing of any motor driven flight surface.
The concerns are not for inability to move the surface
but for unintended and unanticipated motion during a
high risk phase of flight.
Too many designs offered to the OBAM aircraft community
worry about inability to move surfaces (as it seems with
your description). I've not flown many kinds of airplanes
but after the Cessna 150's got their flap extension angles
reduced from 40 to 30 degrees, there are no airplanes in
my experience that are likely to get into trouble by failure
of flaps to move from any current position. This includes
airplanes like our Premier I.
If I used an airplane in situations were high reliability,
positive control of flaps was desirable, the most attractive
systems are operated by a handle on the floor. As soon as
you start adding features for motor drive, automatic extension,
backups to backups, etc. I'm wondering if the "concerns"
for useful operation of flaps isn't generated more my
marketing hype than for convenient, reliable, low risk
use of flaps.
A part that is not installed on your airplane is not
at risk of failure and offers the lowest cost-of-ownership.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pascal GROELL <pgroell(at)yahoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
>>
>> Stein
>> No wonder you're curious. The reason I need this kind of switch is
>> because I'm installing the Flaps Positioning System that I bought
>> from Aircraft Extras, which calls for 3 switches : 1 selector switch
>> between Automatic and Manual operation ( SPDT On-On switch ), 1
>> Automatic Flaps switch ("normal" SPDT (On)-Off-(On) ), which operates
>> the flaps to stop where you programmed it and automatically positions
>> the elevator trim, and finally a Manual Flaps switch, which is a
>> back-up or emergency switch, to operate the flaps when and if the
>> system fails. This last switch connects the flap motor directly to
>> +12V and must be acomplished by 2 SPDT On-None-(On) switches, or (I
>> figured it out, I hope I'm right) by 1 DPDT (On)-On-(On), wich is
>> what I'm looking for.
Carlos,
I will be using the same system and have pretty much decided to delete
all the optional switches.
I think if the Flaps Positioning System fails, well I'll consider the
flaps have failed.
I consider that if you have electric flaps on an aircraft you have to be
trained to use your machine without flaps.
I think adding all backup hardware is looking for more trouble.
My 0.02 cents,
Pascal GROELL
RV-7A #72588
www.notreavion.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Verwey" <bonanza(at)vodamail.co.za> |
I have always admired the in the electronics arena
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David M.
Sent: 24 Nov 2006 06:54 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
If I can determine and find the right stepper motors, I plan to build my own
:)
David M.
Bob Verwey wrote:
> Hey listers,
> I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit,
> but still wondering, any recommendations from the list?
>
> Bob Verwey
> A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
>
>Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The
>Fujitsu is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation
>using PocketFMS and Voyager.
When alternator shopping based on the recommendations
of others, it's useful to know that there's no such
thing as a "Honda" or "GEO_Metro" alternator. 95% of
the world's supply of alternators is manufactured
by a handful of companies of which folks like Bosch
and Nipon Denso are major players.
It's unfortunate that so many different versions of
electrically identical alternators are offered in so
many mechanical variations. But this is like choosing and/or
attempting to mandate the language of measurement. It's
an attractive idea but fruitless to suggest that all
auto manufacturers get together and pick a suite of say 25 parts
around which everyone will design their electrical
systems. Certainly the parts jobbers and dealers
would be delighted . . . as perhaps customers. They'd
certainly cost less.
Bottom line is that on the shelves of any well
stock parts supplier, there are dozens of alternators
that will perform just fine in your airplane. The
value in selecting a "Honda" alternator may come from
the fact that somebody has published drawings for
the mechanical interface between THAT particular
alternator and YOUR engine.
Just keep in mind that electrical and quality issues
are tiny considerations compared to size, weight
and ease of integration into your airframe . . . and
that the number of choices open to you run far beyond
anyone's particular preferences or recommendations.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Super-Battery pedigree? |
>Hi Bob,
>
>Got your email from a builder friend of mine. I guess you are an electrics
>expert, so perhaps you can answer my battery questions.
>
>I fly a Glasair I RG that I finished in 1988. In 1986, when I began to
>work on the retractable gear, I bought a 12 volt sealed battery from a
>company in Scottsdale, AZ called Electromarketing. I found them in Sport
>Aviation.
>
>Long story short, that battery is still ticking in my Glasair. About 3
>years ago in the winter, it didn't have quite enough umph to start, so I
>put a trickle charger on it that came with the battery. It was so old,
>that the polarity had fallen off. I figured 50-50 chance and left it
>overnight charging. The next day the battery was stone dead. It wouldn't
>close the relay. I figured my magic battery was finally dead. However, I
>extracted it from the battery box in the tail and brought it home and put
>a different charger on it. Back to life she came. I had not opened that
>battery box in over 15 years.
>
>Have you ever heard of a battery lasting this long?
>
>Do you know what happened to that company? I'd like to buy another battery
>from them if the need ever arises.
>
>I still have the receipt from that company, but have been unable to find
>them. I asked EAA about it years ago, but never got a response.
I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that company.
They are probably a distributor and not a manufacturer.
I'm not aware of anyone having the success you've
experienced. When that battery finally becomes unserviceable
in your airplane, you might consider shipping it to
me. I'll see if I can identify the source.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Avionics power distribution |
> Hi Bob,
>
>Question: Van's RV10 standard Van's wiring schematic. From Avionics master
>SCB to the live feed stud on subpanel. All avionics feed from this stud,
>Garmin 340 audio panel, GNS530, SL30 Navcom and GTX330 mode S. Is it
>acceptable to use an inline fuse in each individual wire coming from the
>feedstud or is a fusepanel better?
I'm not able to visualize your question. The architectures
I recommend and the reasons behind their development are
cited in
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
and Chapter 17 of the book. Obviously, there are many
variations on a theme that will "function". The need
for an avionics master switch disappeared over 25 years
ago but it's a concept that lingers on, deeply rooted
in our aviation mind-set.
If you want to send me a drawing of your proposed
architecture, I'll try to be more specific in my
answer.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>I have always admired the in the electronics arena
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David M.
>Sent: 24 Nov 2006 06:54 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots
>
>
>If I can determine and find the right stepper motors, I plan to build my own
>:)
The rule of thumb asks for 30 lb-in of torque at the actuator output
shaft. You don't want your one-pass gear reduction to
exceed 10:1 (very hard to do anyhow) and 5:1 to 7:1 is
better. So you need a stepper good for breaking out of
position against a 3 to 6 lb-in load.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Yes Bob I agree, but there are alternators that have less than a stella
reputation, the Van 35A "Honda" alternator being a case in point.
The "Suzuki Samurai" is a ND unit and for the life of me I can't find
the ND part number. It was indeed used on many cars the biggest
difference being whether it was fitted with a V belt pully or a
serpentine. When I found my 80A "Toyota Camry" alt for my IFR RV it cam
with a serp pulley, An alternator rebuilder kindly found me a v pulley
that fitted. Once you get past the pulley the rest is just fabricating
suitable brackets to suit.
I would post a note to the "Stratus group" as someone on there will have
the part number handy. I would be very surprised if this alt was no
longer available.
Cheers
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations
-->
>-->
>
>Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The
>Fujitsu is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation
>using PocketFMS and Voyager.
When alternator shopping based on the recommendations
of others, it's useful to know that there's no such
thing as a "Honda" or "GEO_Metro" alternator. 95% of
the world's supply of alternators is manufactured
by a handful of companies of which folks like Bosch
and Nipon Denso are major players.
It's unfortunate that so many different versions of
electrically identical alternators are offered in so
many mechanical variations. But this is like choosing and/or
attempting to mandate the language of measurement. It's
an attractive idea but fruitless to suggest that all
auto manufacturers get together and pick a suite of say 25 parts
around which everyone will design their electrical
systems. Certainly the parts jobbers and dealers
would be delighted . . . as perhaps customers. They'd
certainly cost less.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
A quick check with Google found this
http://replacement.autopartswarehouse.com/parts/autopartswarehouse/wizard.js
p?year=1987&make=SZ&model=SAM--001&part=Alternator&dp=true
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations
Yes Bob I agree, but there are alternators that have less than a stella
reputation, the Van 35A "Honda" alternator being a case in point.
The "Suzuki Samurai" is a ND unit and for the life of me I can't find
the ND part number. It was indeed used on many cars the biggest
difference being whether it was fitted with a V belt pully or a
serpentine. When I found my 80A "Toyota Camry" alt for my IFR RV it cam
with a serp pulley, An alternator rebuilder kindly found me a v pulley
that fitted. Once you get past the pulley the rest is just fabricating
suitable brackets to suit.
I would post a note to the "Stratus group" as someone on there will have
the part number handy. I would be very surprised if this alt was no
longer available.
Cheers
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations
-->
>-->
>
>Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The
>Fujitsu is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation
>using PocketFMS and Voyager.
When alternator shopping based on the recommendations
of others, it's useful to know that there's no such
thing as a "Honda" or "GEO_Metro" alternator. 95% of
the world's supply of alternators is manufactured
by a handful of companies of which folks like Bosch
and Nipon Denso are major players.
It's unfortunate that so many different versions of
electrically identical alternators are offered in so
many mechanical variations. But this is like choosing and/or
attempting to mandate the language of measurement. It's
an attractive idea but fruitless to suggest that all
auto manufacturers get together and pick a suite of say 25 parts
around which everyone will design their electrical
systems. Certainly the parts jobbers and dealers
would be delighted . . . as perhaps customers. They'd
certainly cost less.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vern Little <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Vx Aviation Products now Available Directly from Aircraft |
Extras
Aircraft Extras Inc., and Vx Aviation have entered into a distribution
agreement in which all of Vx Aviations products will be distributed by
Aircraft Extras.
This agreement will reduce shipping time and cost, and give customers
broader access to an extensive line of innovative products. Aircraft
Extras is located centrally in Columbus, Ohio, and Vx Aviation is
located near Vancouver, BC Canada.
The founders of the two organizations are both RV builders and
engineers. Many of the innovative products developed or marketed by
them were developed for use in RVs, but have applications in most
amateur-built/experimental aircraft.
Many of the builders who frequent vansairforce.net or the
aeroelectric-list at matronics.com are familiar with Rich Meske
(Aircraft Extras) and Vern Little (Vx Aviation) from postings or as
customers of their products.
Aircraft Extras now markets Vx Aviations external AoA indicator for
Dynon EFIS systems, an audio bus for Sigtronics intercoms, annunciator
controllers and wiring accessories for the Rocky Mountain engine monitor.
In addition, Aircraft Extras sells Trutrak Flight Systems autopilots,
systems for flap positioning, trim control, fuel and oil level warning,,
plus various useful add-ons, enhancements, accessories and the famous
Meske Tip-Up/Slider modification kit for RVs.
A complete list of Aircraft Extras products is available at
www.aircraft-extras.com.
The Vx Aviation home page is www.vx-aviation.com.
For more information:
Rich Meske, Aircraft Extras
Vern Little, Vx Aviation
Thank-you
Vern Little
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <William.P.Dube(at)noaa.gov> |
Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper
shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more resistance
to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the driver
silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you must be
able to move the stick with shorted motor leads.
Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large
voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control
surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the stepper
windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to limit these
voltages.
Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a
prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will
break/slip if need be.
The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite complicated. :-)
Bill Dube'
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
That's the one!...I had to shorten the link to make it work by removing
the "wizrd.js" part then I could step thru to 1987 Suz samurai.
$130 for a new alt...Can't beat that with a stick!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Housman
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:22 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations
--> <robh@hyperion-ef.us>
A quick check with Google found this
http://replacement.autopartswarehouse.com/parts/autopartswarehouse/wizar
d.js
p?year=1987&make=SZ&model=SAM--001&part=Alternator&dp=true
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough.
Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other
failure modes even with power removed?
Thanks,
David M.
Bill Dube wrote:
>
>
> Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper
> shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more resistance
> to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the driver
> silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you must be
> able to move the stick with shorted motor leads.
>
> Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large
> voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control
> surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the stepper
> windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to limit these
> voltages.
>
> Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a
> prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will
> break/slip if need be.
>
> The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite
> complicated. :-)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Dube <William.P.Dube(at)noaa.gov> |
Stepper may not freewheel with the power removed from the driver
circuit. If the silicon is shorted, the stepper will plug brake. If you
force the stepper to spin too fast, you can blow out the silicon with
over-voltage, and perhaps cause it to short. The back-feed of voltage
into the driver circuit (on or off) from the spinning stepper can cause
all sorts of problems. If you simply spin the stepper itself too fast,
you can possibly arc over, then short the windings, causing it to plug
brake.
Your auto-pilot system should be designed to be tolerant of all of
these fault scenarios.
Steppers don't really "freewheel", instead they "cog."
Bill Dube'
David M. wrote:
>
> I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough.
> Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other
> failure modes even with power removed?
>
> Thanks,
> David M.
>
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper
>> shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more
>> resistance to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the
>> driver silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you
>> must be able to move the stick with shorted motor leads.
>>
>> Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large
>> voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control
>> surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the
>> stepper windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to
>> limit these voltages.
>>
>> Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a
>> prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will
>> break/slip if need be.
>>
>> The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite
>> complicated. :-)
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Seems I've read of autopilots having a clutch of sorts. I would think
that an electromechanical clutch could be included which would allow
decoupling of the stepper motor from the control bellcrank. The clutch
would failsafe in the decoupled configuration..
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Stepper may not freewheel with the power removed from the driver
> circuit. If the silicon is shorted, the stepper will plug brake. If you
> force the stepper to spin too fast, you can blow out the silicon with
> over-voltage, and perhaps cause it to short. The back-feed of voltage
> into the driver circuit (on or off) from the spinning stepper can cause
> all sorts of problems. If you simply spin the stepper itself too fast,
> you can possibly arc over, then short the windings, causing it to plug
> brake.
>
> Your auto-pilot system should be designed to be tolerant of all of
> these fault scenarios.
>
> Steppers don't really "freewheel", instead they "cog."
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> David M. wrote:
>
>>
>> I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough.
>> Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other
>> failure modes even with power removed?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> David M.
>>
>>
>> Bill Dube wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper
>>> shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more
>>> resistance to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the
>>> driver silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you
>>> must be able to move the stick with shorted motor leads.
>>>
>>> Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large
>>> voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control
>>> surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the
>>> stepper windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to
>>> limit these voltages.
>>>
>>> Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a
>>> prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will
>>> break/slip if need be.
>>>
>>> The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite
>>> complicated. :-)
>>>
>>> Bill Dube'
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Fordham" <fconsult(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Lightspeed ignition wiring |
Hi
Looking for views on Lightspeed ignition wiring. The installation manual
says to run power and ground wires direct to battery terminals to suppress
radio interference. With a battery being in the rear of the aircraft and one
main fat wire running up to the firewall what thoughts does anyone have on
using the fatwire terminal on the start relay instead of running (hot) wires
all the way back to the battery terminals. Any real life experience out
there?
Thanks Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Lightspeed ignition wiring |
| From: | "David Chalmers" <David(at)ChalmersFamily.com> |
I did exactly what you describe with a Plasma II. I had a fat wire running to a
battery in the rear and connected the ignition to the fat wires at the engine.
Didn't work too well. The voltage drop in those fat wires when starting was
a problem. Symptoms were engine would spin great but wouldn't fire until starter
switch was released. I rewired it per instructions with dedicated hot wires
back to the battery for the ignition and have had no further problems.
Dave Chalmers
TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs
Redmond WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Fordham [mailto:fconsult(at)telus.net]
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring
Hi
Looking for views on Lightspeed ignition wiring. The installation manual
says to run power and ground wires direct to battery terminals to suppress
radio interference. With a battery being in the rear of the aircraft and one
main fat wire running up to the firewall what thoughts does anyone have on
using the fatwire terminal on the start relay instead of running (hot) wires
all the way back to the battery terminals. Any real life experience out
there?
Thanks Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper
>shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more resistance to
>movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the driver silicon is
>quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you must be able to move the
>stick with shorted motor leads.
Brushless dc motors have permanent magnet rotors that
do have a substantial backdriving force with the windings
shorted . . . but except for a small "gogging" force,
the backdriving torque is velocity related. In other words,
the motor can't "lock up" the shaft with simple shorted
windings . . . it can only resist motion with resitance
going up as velocity increases.
A stepper (or at least all the motors I've worked with)
don't have PM rotors and generate no driving EMF or
velocity related backdriving resistance.
>Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large
>voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control
>surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the stepper
>windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to limit these voltages.
Again, no permanent magnets, no back emf.
> Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a
> prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will
> break/slip if need be.
I size the pinion gear width and material to provide
the last-ditch, mechanical fuse. Usually at about
60 to 100 lb-in of back driving force.
> The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite complicated. :-)
That's the nice thing about steppers. Very low parts count.
Very low risks to manual operability whether energized or
de-energized and all without clutches and brakes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough.
>Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other failure
>modes even with power removed?
>
>Thanks,
>David M.
No, steppers have very benign failure modes and none
are "runaway" events. You don't want to OVERSIZE the
motor because you're depending on the steppers INABILITY
to hold position while energized should the electronics
hang up.
In a de-energized state, steppers are very free wheeling.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Stepper may not freewheel with the power removed from the driver circuit.
>If the silicon is shorted, the stepper will plug brake. If you force the
>stepper to spin too fast, you can blow out the silicon with over-voltage,
>and perhaps cause it to short. The back-feed of voltage into the driver
>circuit (on or off) from the spinning stepper can cause all sorts of
>problems. If you simply spin the stepper itself too fast, you can possibly
>arc over, then short the windings, causing it to plug brake.
>
> Your auto-pilot system should be designed to be tolerant of all of
> these fault scenarios.
>
> Steppers don't really "freewheel", instead they "cog."
Bill, can you cite me a part number and manufacturer of
a motor that exhibits these characteristics? I've done
about a dozen programs with steppers of various sizes
(20A machines with 400 oz-in of breakout torque) and
all would freewheel nicely when de-energize and generated
no back-emf.
I suppose one COULD build a stepper with a PM rotor
but it would be difficult to achieve the 1.8 degree stepping
angle rotors that have strong permanent magnet poles.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Seems I've read of autopilots having a clutch of sorts. I would think
>that an electromechanical clutch could be included which would allow
>decoupling of the stepper motor from the control bellcrank. The clutch
>would failsafe in the decoupled configuration..
A VERY common feature in autopilot servos of yore and even today
with the large servos used to fly bizjets. But the little stepper
driving a single pass gear train to hold a heading is not
capable of producing breathtaking maneuvers and it's output
torque is sharply limited.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Quinn" <jquinn3(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightspeed ignition wiring |
Chris,
I have one LightSpeed installed on a IO-320. I had Lightspeed send me
a new signal pickup assembly with longer than normal wires. The hot
wire goes to a combination circuit breaker/switch and then to the
positive battery terminal. Besides the radio noise issue, I believe
the real reason is to eliminate points of failure in the wiring run.
In my case the only problem I can experience is a broken wire or a
broken switch. Otherwise the power will always be delivered where it
is needed to run the system.
On 12/1/06, David Chalmers wrote:
>
>
> I did exactly what you describe with a Plasma II. I had a fat wire running to
a battery in the rear and connected the ignition to the fat wires at the engine.
Didn't work too well. The voltage drop in those fat wires when starting was
a problem. Symptoms were engine would spin great but wouldn't fire until starter
switch was released. I rewired it per instructions with dedicated hot wires
back to the battery for the ignition and have had no further problems.
>
> Dave Chalmers
> TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs
> Redmond WA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Fordham [mailto:fconsult(at)telus.net]
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:35 PM
> To: AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring
>
>
> Hi
> Looking for views on Lightspeed ignition wiring. The installation manual
> says to run power and ground wires direct to battery terminals to suppress
> radio interference. With a battery being in the rear of the aircraft and one
> main fat wire running up to the firewall what thoughts does anyone have on
> using the fatwire terminal on the start relay instead of running (hot) wires
> all the way back to the battery terminals. Any real life experience out
> there?
>
> Thanks Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Recommendations |
| From: | "Wingrider" <rwhitt3(at)hotmail.com> |
AutoZone lists the 1987 Suzuki Samurai for $96 with a limited lifetime warranty
and show it to weight 7.7 lbs.
Now if I could find someone in southern Tennessee or northern Alabama with a Corvair
in a Zenith 601 I'd like to have a look at how much room is available to
mount this alternator.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78614#78614
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pascal GROELL" <pgroell(at)yahoo.fr>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch source
> Carlos,
>
> I will be using the same system and have pretty much decided to delete all
> the optional switches.
> I think if the Flaps Positioning System fails, well I'll consider the
> flaps have failed.
> I consider that if you have electric flaps on an aircraft you have to be
> trained to use your machine without flaps.
> I think adding all backup hardware is looking for more trouble.
> My 0.02 cents,
>
> Pascal GROELL
> RV-7A #72588
> www.notreavion.net
>
Bonjour Pascal
C'est toujous agrable de trouver quelq'un de ce cot de l'Atlantique.
Well, it is really your choice to not use the optional switches, and not
having the back-up/emergency functionality. However, on one hand, that's not
what the factory (Aircraft Extras) recommend. On the other hand, have you
considered what will you do in the following occasions?:
- you are doing or practicing slow flight, with your flaps at the
maximum deployment, and the FPS-Plus fails. If you are somewhere far from a
landing point, you will have to go there very slowly...
- you are flying towards a short runway airfield, and before
landing your Flap Posit. system fails. How are you going to land without
some amount of flaps deployed?
- You are in short final to any kind of airfield, with your flaps
deployed at maximum, and suddenly some obstacle occupies your runway. If
your FPS fails, how are you going to go-around?
Although I'm aware these are low probability situations, they are
nevertheless some reasons why I want to have back-up/emergency manual
control of my flaps
Amicalement
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
| From: | "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net> |
I wanted to bring closure to this issue. Please accept my sincere appreciation
to all those that provided a wealth of information. The elastomeric puck was
the failed part. I sent Drake Air my old part so it could be rebuilt. They
charge $450 for this service. Aircraft Spruce does NOT carry this part. They
carry the rebuild parts for a different drive coupling. I have attached some
pictures showing the coupling and the engine removal. Again, Thanks to everyone
for your help and support.
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78625#78625
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vixen_engine_alternator_removal16_609.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vixen_engine_alternator_removal18_202.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vixen_alternator_drive_coupling6_144.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vixen_alternator_drive_coupling5_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vixen_alternator_drive_coupling1_911.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vixen_alternator_drive_coupling3_105.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pascal GROELL <pgroell(at)yahoo.fr> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
Carlos Trigo a crit :
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pascal GROELL" <pgroell(at)yahoo.fr>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:43 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch source
>
>> Carlos,
>>
>> I will be using the same system and have pretty much decided to
>> delete all the optional switches.
>> I think if the Flaps Positioning System fails, well I'll consider the
>> flaps have failed.
>> I consider that if you have electric flaps on an aircraft you have to
>> be trained to use your machine without flaps.
>> I think adding all backup hardware is looking for more trouble.
>> My 0.02 cents,
>>
>> Pascal GROELL
>> RV-7A #72588
>> www.notreavion.net
>>
>
> Bonjour Pascal
>
> C'est toujous agrable de trouver quelq'un de ce cot de l'Atlantique.
>
> Well, it is really your choice to not use the optional switches, and
> not having the back-up/emergency functionality. However, on one hand,
> that's not what the factory (Aircraft Extras) recommend. On the other
> hand, have you considered what will you do in the following occasions?:
> - you are doing or practicing slow flight, with your flaps at
> the maximum deployment, and the FPS-Plus fails. If you are somewhere
> far from a landing point, you will have to go there very slowly...
> - you are flying towards a short runway airfield, and before
> landing your Flap Posit. system fails. How are you going to land
> without some amount of flaps deployed?
> - You are in short final to any kind of airfield, with your
> flaps deployed at maximum, and suddenly some obstacle occupies your
> runway. If your FPS fails, how are you going to go-around?
>
> Although I'm aware these are low probability situations, they are
> nevertheless some reasons why I want to have back-up/emergency manual
> control of my flaps
>
> Amicalement
> Carlos
Bonjour Carlos,
I would do the same I would do if my flap switch or flap motor would
fail in these situations.
I see no differences.
But that's each builders choice, and I respect yours.
Hope I we can meet one day on this side of the Atlantic.
Happy building.
Pascal
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
> Hope I we can meet one day on this side of the Atlantic.
>
> Pascal
And where exactly are you building ?
Next January I will go to Barcelona and do some skiing in the Pyrines, so
if you are in south of France ....
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cleones <cleone(at)rr1.net> |
Hi Bob, In the John Deere alternator and regulator frequently talked
about here is the rectifier in the regulator? And, Is the
alternator generating 3 phase AC ? And, about what voltage is the
output of the alternator. Also, since we know that the # 5 terminal
must be connected to voltage or the alternator doesn't work. I have
tried this and it is true. Then what is the circuit like? And would
it be a good place to connect the overvoltage crowbar to? Enjoyed
your lectures at Bloomington recently. Cleone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
I'm wiring tach pickup wires to a switch that selects which mags gives the tach
signal. This switch is right above the two mag toggle switches. Since I'm using
EIS 4000, they say to wire from the P-lead through a 27k resistor to the
tach selector switch.
Any concerns with just using a small pigtail off of the P-lead wire at the mag
switch (going into the tach selector switch)? I'd prefer not to run another wire
all the way to the mag itself just for tach signal. My concerns here are
noise and functionality (eg. to ensure it works as wired up).
Also, any concerns with running the P-lead shielded wire together with the rest
of wires, or should I find a separate path and firewall penetration just for
these two wires?
PS. Why does 20AWG shielded wire's inner conductor appear to be thinner than regular
20AWG tefzel wire (measured diameter including insulation)? It looks the
same to me as 22AWG tefzel wrapped in shielding (and my stripper won't strip
it at 20AWG setting).
Thanks!
Radomir
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78685#78685
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | VOR antenna splitter? |
Resurrecting an old thread here. I'm working on building a new panel with a
GNS 430 (needs separate VOR and GS inputs) and a SL-30 (internal diplexer so
needs GS and VOR on same coax). My question is, with the referenced
splitters/couplers, does the glideslope freq range get stripped off of the
VOR outputs? (Real question, if I use the CI-505, will my SL-30 see the GS
freqs from one of the VOR outputs?) I understand I'm getting less energy to
the receivers, but I want to give a single antenna a try before I add a
second during this retrofit.
Thanks much,
John
RV-8 94DW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VOR antenna splitter?
-->
>
>
>I am thinking of adding a Garmin AT SL 30 NavCom to the CNX 80
>
>Both have internal splitters for the localizer and the glide slope. It
>OK to use ONE VOR antenna for both boxes? I recognize I would be
>introducing a single point failure but it seems sufficiently remote. I
>am concerned that both would have adequate signal levels.
>
>An archives search on antenna splitter gave no guidance.
See http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/com_couplers3.php
These work good and last a long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | VOR antenna splitter? |
This exchange might be helpful...
No. It only passes VOR frequencies. Use our new CI 5120 instead.
Don Jeckell
Comant Industries
Tel (714) 870-2420
Fax (714) 870-5133 x546
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Denton [mailto:bdenton(at)bdenton.com]
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 2:34 PM
Subject: Question RE: CI-502
Hello!
Does the CI-502 Dual VOR Splitter allow glideslope signals to pass
through
it to the receivers?
Thank you!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
Erickson
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2006 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: VOR antenna splitter?
Resurrecting an old thread here. I'm working on building a new panel with a
GNS 430 (needs separate VOR and GS inputs) and a SL-30 (internal diplexer so
needs GS and VOR on same coax). My question is, with the referenced
splitters/couplers, does the glideslope freq range get stripped off of the
VOR outputs? (Real question, if I use the CI-505, will my SL-30 see the GS
freqs from one of the VOR outputs?) I understand I'm getting less energy to
the receivers, but I want to give a single antenna a try before I add a
second during this retrofit.
Thanks much,
John
RV-8 94DW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VOR antenna splitter?
-->
>
>
>I am thinking of adding a Garmin AT SL 30 NavCom to the CNX 80
>
>Both have internal splitters for the localizer and the glide slope. It
>OK to use ONE VOR antenna for both boxes? I recognize I would be
>introducing a single point failure but it seems sufficiently remote. I
>am concerned that both would have adequate signal levels.
>
>An archives search on antenna splitter gave no guidance.
See http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/com_couplers3.php
These work good and last a long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>I'm wiring tach pickup wires to a switch that selects which mags gives the
>tach signal. This switch is right above the two mag toggle
>switches. Since I'm using EIS 4000, they say to wire from the P-lead
>through a 27k resistor to the tach selector switch.
>
>Any concerns with just using a small pigtail off of the P-lead wire at the
>mag switch (going into the tach selector switch)? I'd prefer not to run
>another wire all the way to the mag itself just for tach signal. My
>concerns here are noise and functionality (eg. to ensure it works as wired up).
. . . suggest you wire as shown in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Ignition/Mags_with_Electronic_Tach_A.pdf
>Also, any concerns with running the P-lead shielded wire together with the
>rest of wires, or should I find a separate path and firewall penetration
>just for these two wires?
No. Run them together with other stuff as long as shields
are grounded as shown above.
>PS. Why does 20AWG shielded wire's inner conductor appear to be thinner
>than regular 20AWG tefzel wire (measured diameter including
>insulation)? It looks the same to me as 22AWG tefzel wrapped in shielding
>(and my stripper won't strip it at 20AWG setting).
Maybe because it's not 20AWG wire but 22AWG.
How do you come to believe that it's actually
20AWG wire. If there's a mil number on the wire
it will looke somethign like 22759/16-20-9 where
22759 is the base spec. Slash 16 is the sub spec.
20 is the AWG and 9 is color. If there's a third
dash number then it's the stripe color.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
Bob, many thanks for the suggestion. I like the simplicity of it very much! :)
Wish I found this drawing before drilling a hole for the selector switch...
but no biggie, the hole can be filled.
I do have a quick follow-up question -- the drawing I was using (toggle mag switches
with start button) call out for 20 AWG shielded wire for P-leads... This
drawing calls out for 18AWG shielded... Any concerns with using 20, which I have
on hand? Or should I be ordering 18?
As for size of the wire.. I got the 20AWG shielded from B&C... Found the numbers
on it and they read: M27500-20 TG1T14 So I guess it is 20AWG.. but again..
I gotta use 22 setting on the stripper to strip it..
Thanks again!
Radomir
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78713#78713
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Cleones wrote:
>
> Hi Bob, In the John Deere alternator and regulator frequently talked
> about here is the rectifier in the regulator?
Yes.
> And, Is the alternator generating 3 phase AC ?
No. It is single phase AC. There are only two wires coming out of it.
> And, about what voltage is the output of the alternator.
It will go up to about 200 volts open circuit but when loaded it will be
in the vicinity of 15 volts depending on how you measure it.
> Also, since we know that the # 5 terminal must be connected to
> voltage or the alternator doesn't work. I have tried this and it is
> true. Then what is the circuit like? And would it be a good place to
> connect the overvoltage crowbar to? Enjoyed your lectures at
> Bloomington recently. Cleone
I interupt the wires into the regulator. In the past Bob has said that
either into or out of the regulator will do the job but I wanted to be
able to cut power to the regulator in case it was overheating or
internally shorted. The regulator uses the battery connection to turn
itself on and to sense the battery voltage so that it can regulate to
14.4 volts nominal output.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Ummm
Is this a test ;) ?
Why wouldn't 20 awg shielded wire have a 20awg center wire??
Ken
snip
>
>> PS. Why does 20AWG shielded wire's inner conductor appear to be
>> thinner than regular 20AWG tefzel wire (measured diameter including
>> insulation)? It looks the same to me as 22AWG tefzel wrapped in
>> shielding (and my stripper won't strip it at 20AWG setting).
>
>
> Maybe because it's not 20AWG wire but 22AWG.
> How do you come to believe that it's actually
> 20AWG wire. If there's a mil number on the wire
> it will looke somethign like 22759/16-20-9 where
> 22759 is the base spec. Slash 16 is the sub spec.
> 20 is the AWG and 9 is color. If there's a third
> dash number then it's the stripe color.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
Hmm.. but this makes the start button "live" when both mags are off... Is this
a big concern in "real life?" I did like the other drawing a bit better when
the button was live only when left was on and right off.. I guess can't have
it all? :)
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78721#78721
________________________________________________________________________________
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> >PS. Why does 20AWG shielded wire's inner conductor appear to be thinner
> >than regular 20AWG tefzel wire (measured diameter including
> >insulation)? It looks the same to me as 22AWG tefzel wrapped in shielding
> >(and my stripper won't strip it at 20AWG setting).
>
> Maybe because it's not 20AWG wire but 22AWG.
> How do you come to believe that it's actually
> 20AWG wire. If there's a mil number on the wire
> it will looke somethign like 22759/16-20-9 where
> 22759 is the base spec. Slash 16 is the sub spec.
> 20 is the AWG and 9 is color. If there's a third
> dash number then it's the stripe color.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
I use quite a bit of the 22 AWG shielded wire. The MIL spec for the
shielded wire I've been using and which seems to be commonly available
is M27500. The insulation is thinner than 22750/16. I haven't seen
shielded wire with 22750/16 conductors.
Bob W.
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.4 Hours Total Time
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch source |
On 2 Dec 2006, at 08:23, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> - You are in short final to any kind of airfield, with
> your flaps deployed at maximum, and suddenly some obstacle occupies
> your runway. If your FPS fails, how are you going to go-around?
>
> Although I'm aware these are low probability situations, they are
> nevertheless some reasons why I want to have back-up/emergency
> manual control of my flaps
As Pascal indicated, there are many possible reasons why flap systems
may fail. If it is not possible to safely do a go-around with the
flaps fully extended, this suggests that the maximum flap angle is
too great.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Bob, many thanks for the suggestion. I like the simplicity of it very
>much! :) Wish I found this drawing before drilling a hole for the
>selector switch... but no biggie, the hole can be filled.
>
>I do have a quick follow-up question -- the drawing I was using (toggle
>mag switches with start button) call out for 20 AWG shielded wire for
>P-leads... This drawing calls out for 18AWG shielded... Any concerns with
>using 20, which I have on hand? Or should I be ordering 18?
No, the currents that flow in these wires
would be easily handled by 22AWG wire. There's
a kind of rule-of-thumb for wires under the cowl,
especially those that control the mags to make
them mechanically robust. This suggests the use
of 20 or even 18AWG wire. I've seen some drawings
call out 16AWG.
>As for size of the wire.. I got the 20AWG shielded from B&C... Found the
>numbers on it and they read: M27500-20 TG1T14 So I guess it is 20AWG..
>but again.. I gotta use 22 setting on the stripper to strip it..
Interesting. This probably speaks more to the
accuracy of the dies in your tool as opposed to
variabilities in the actual size of the wire.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Ummm
>Is this a test ;) ?
>Why wouldn't 20 awg shielded wire have a 20awg center wire??
>Ken
>
Was just inquiring as to the pedigree of the wire.
I have a spool of perfectly good wire where the
wire itself is not marked but label on the spool is
incorrect. Just asking about the data he had to
KNOW that the wire was indeed 20AWG. The source
and markings suggest the wire is the size he believes
it to be . . . which leaves tool variabilities as the
probable cause for his observations.
Bob. . .
>snip
>
>>
>>>PS. Why does 20AWG shielded wire's inner conductor appear to be thinner
>>>than regular 20AWG tefzel wire (measured diameter including
>>>insulation)? It looks the same to me as 22AWG tefzel wrapped in
>>>shielding (and my stripper won't strip it at 20AWG setting).
>>
>>
>> Maybe because it's not 20AWG wire but 22AWG.
>> How do you come to believe that it's actually
>> 20AWG wire. If there's a mil number on the wire
>> it will looke somethign like 22759/16-20-9 where
>> 22759 is the base spec. Slash 16 is the sub spec.
>> 20 is the AWG and 9 is color. If there's a third
>> dash number then it's the stripe color.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Hmm.. but this makes the start button "live" when both mags are off... Is
>this a big concern in "real life?" I did like the other drawing a bit
>better when the button was live only when left was on and right off.. I
>guess can't have it all? :)
Yeah, that was a problem but I ran out of poles on the
left mag switch. You could get a 3-pole switch for the left
mag and produce the functionality you're interested in.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was designed for a heavier
aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high altitude cold, the
pitot was configured to get very hot, with consumate amperage demand.
Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there any way of reducing
the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch would be fine...I don't
need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate reduction in
amperage demand?
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
There are ways, but what leads you to believe that the pitot is really
too hot? The whole purpose of the heater is to keep it clear in any
condition - rain, freezing rain, cold ambient, etc. Depending on what
plane you have, you will be flying at upwards of 200 mph through all
this (hopefully NOT freezing rain) and the last thing you want is for
the pitot to freeze up.
Dick Tasker
Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
>I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was designed for a heavier
>aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high altitude cold, the
>pitot was configured to get very hot, with consumate amperage demand.
>Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there any way of reducing
>the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch would be fine...I don't
>need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate reduction in
>amperage demand?
>
>Chuck Jensen
>
>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Bob and all,
A buddy asked me to help him design his electrical circuit.
Here are some question for you experts :
- What size fuse or breaker for a facet (round) fuel pump : 5 amps, 7.5
amps, 10 amps ?
- What breaker size for a B&C Lycoming O-360 starter solenoid ?
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
> Was just inquiring as to the pedigree of the wire.
> I have a spool of perfectly good wire where the
> wire itself is not marked but label on the spool is
> incorrect. Just asking about the data he had to
> KNOW that the wire was indeed 20AWG. The source
> and markings suggest the wire is the size he believes
> it to be . . . which leaves tool variabilities as the
> probable cause for his observations.
>
> Bob. . .
>
>
> >snip
> >
Nope. I finally found a quick summary for the M27500 specification.
(Available at http://www.awcwire.com/pdf/CT-G4-M27500.pdf.)
M27500 can be made with any M22759 wire. M22759 with
different /no. have different insulation thicknesses. I've been
buying M27500-22TG3T14 which turns out to have M22759/18 wire in it.
That's specified by the TG.
Here are some wire outer diameters per the M22759 spec.:
M22759/16 20 AWG 0.058 - 0.062
M22759/18 20 AWG 0.049 - 0.053
M22759/16 22 AWG 0.050 - 0.053
This data is from
http://www.jaguarind.com/products/teflon/teflonwire.html
So if you have the M27500-20TG wire, the OD of the wire is identical to
the OD of M22759/16 22 AWG.
If you want M22759/16 wire in your M27500 shielded cable, it has to be
M27500-xxTExxxx.
My experience stripping the 22 AWG M22759/18 wire with the 22 AWG
setting on my stripper is that sometimes it works and sometimes it
slips. Once it's slipped, the insulation has been thinned some more
and I have to complete the strip with my el cheepo stripper similar to
your picture http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/mvc829.jpg
Bob W.
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.4 Hours Total Time
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
Bob W. -- that's it. I mic'ed both tefzel 22 and this shielded 20 and they both
came out at 0.050... My stripper doesn't wanna strip it at 20.. but works at
22 fine.. so I'm good to go.
I decided to keep the selector switch, as I didn't like having a live starter button...
It does appear that using a 3 pole switch woudl be ideal. Since my left
mag switch is close to the rib, not sure if 3 pole switch would fit in there
(not sure about its size).. so this will work good.
Thanks to everyone!
Radomir
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78891#78891
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Riggs <riggs_la(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
I would like to add that the pitot tube should burn your hand if you grab it after
it has been on for more than 1 or 2 minutes.
There are ways, but what leads you to believe that the pitot is really
too hot? The whole purpose of the heater is to keep it clear in any
condition - rain, freezing rain, cold ambient, etc. Depending on what
plane you have, you will be flying at upwards of 200 mph through all
this (hopefully NOT freezing rain) and the last thing you want is for
the pitot to freeze up.
Dick Tasker
Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
>I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was designed for a heavier
>aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high altitude cold, the
>pitot was configured to get very hot, with consumate amperage demand.
>Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there any way of reducing
>the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch would be fine...I don't
>need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate reduction in
>amperage demand?
>
>Chuck Jensen
>
>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
Lynn A. Riggs
riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
St. Paul, MN
BH #656 Kit #22
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Good Evening Lynn, Dick and Chuck,
In a previous life, I flew quite a few airplanes that
had a high and a low heat for the pitot tubes. They
were on low for ground operations and on high heat for
airborne use.
I think it was controlled by a strut switch, but not
sure.
Worked well though.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Lynn Riggs wrote:
> I would like to add that the pitot tube should burn
> your hand if you grab it after it has been on for
> more than 1 or 2 minutes.
>
> "Richard E. Tasker" wrote:
> Tasker"
>
> There are ways, but what leads you to believe that
> the pitot is really
> too hot? The whole purpose of the heater is to keep
> it clear in any
> condition - rain, freezing rain, cold ambient, etc.
> Depending on what
> plane you have, you will be flying at upwards of 200
> mph through all
> this (hopefully NOT freezing rain) and the last
> thing you want is for
> the pitot to freeze up.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
> Jensen"
> >
> >I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was
> designed for a heavier
> >aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high
> altitude cold, the
> >pitot was configured to get very hot, with
> consumate amperage demand.
> >Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there
> any way of reducing
> >the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch
> would be fine...I don't
> >need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate
> reduction in
> >amperage demand?
> >
> >Chuck Jensen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Please Note:
> No trees were destroyed in the sending of this
> message. We do concede, however,
> that a significant number of electrons may have been
> temporarily inconvenienced.
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lynn A. Riggs
> riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
> St. Paul, MN
> BH #656 Kit #22
>
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
>
> ---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was designed for a heavier
>aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high altitude cold, the
>pitot was configured to get very hot, with consumate amperage demand.
>Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there any way of reducing
>the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch would be fine...I don't
>need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate reduction in
>amperage demand?
Altitude and speed have little to do with a pitot tube's
need to transfer heat to the surface. The kind of ice that
a pitot tube is expected to handle happens at lower altitudes
and relatively slow speeds. It's the super-cooled water droplets
that freeze instantly on contact that represent the largest
challenge to the pitot tube's ability to shed ice.
If you've ever witnessed an ice-tunnel test on a piece
of aviation de-ice equipment, you'd realize that if your
pitot tube is being seriously challenged, then knowing
altitude and airspeed are probably the least of your concerns.
Icing conditions you're likely to survive can probably be
shed by a relatively whimpy pitot tube deice heater but these
are exceedingly difficult things to quantify. Pitot tubes
we THOUGHT were adequate 30 years ago are scoffed at today.
Intuitively, your assertion is not in error, ANY amount of
heat will shed SOME ice. SOME ice is survivable while OTHER
ice is not. Given the changes in de-ice certification protocols
over the years, it becomes difficult to put numbers on "any",
"some" and "other". So difficult that for anyone to offer you
advice advocating "this many watts as opposed to that many
watts" may be blowing smoke you-know-where.
When that stuff starts appearing anywhere on your airplane
is not the time to be experimenting with the adequacy of
your pitot heater decisions. The best rule of thumb is put
on the biggest heater you can find/afford but plan on the
expeditious 180 no matter how robust you belive your heater
to be.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Sultzbach <endspeed(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Hi Bob,
Staying out of icing if possible is good advice. I
lost pitot static instruments 2 or 3 times in a full
deicing equipped Navy jet over a 3 year period. It
gives you quite a chill in the spinal area to see your
airspeed dropping off so quickly to zero. I happened
to be level at the time of loss. Icing of the pitot
tube turns your airspeed indicator into an altimeter
for all intents and purposes. The higher you go the
higher the airspeed you'll see. The lower you go the
lower the airspeed. You can see how hazardous that is
since you'll climb and show higher airspeed with the
nose way up, right to the stall and spin. Another
sound piece of advice is to know what airspeed a given
attitude and power setting will give you and don't
mess with your configuration any more than necessary
to land.
Safe flying,
Bob Sultzbach
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
-->
>-->
>
>I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was designed for a heavier
>aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high altitude cold, the
>pitot was configured to get very hot, with consumate amperage demand.
>Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there any way of reducing
>the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch would be fine...I
>don't need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate reduction in
>amperage demand?
Altitude and speed have little to do with a pitot tube's
need to transfer heat to the surface. The kind of ice that
a pitot tube is expected to handle happens at lower altitudes
and relatively slow speeds. It's the super-cooled water droplets
that freeze instantly on contact that represent the largest
challenge to the pitot tube's ability to shed ice.
If you've ever witnessed an ice-tunnel test on a piece
of aviation de-ice equipment, you'd realize that if your
pitot tube is being seriously challenged, then knowing
altitude and airspeed are probably the least of your concerns.
Icing conditions you're likely to survive can probably be
shed by a relatively whimpy pitot tube deice heater but these
are exceedingly difficult things to quantify. Pitot tubes
we THOUGHT were adequate 30 years ago are scoffed at today.
Intuitively, your assertion is not in error, ANY amount of
heat will shed SOME ice. SOME ice is survivable while OTHER
ice is not. Given the changes in de-ice certification protocols
over the years, it becomes difficult to put numbers on "any",
"some" and "other". So difficult that for anyone to offer you
advice advocating "this many watts as opposed to that many
watts" may be blowing smoke you-know-where.
When that stuff starts appearing anywhere on your airplane
is not the time to be experimenting with the adequacy of
your pitot heater decisions. The best rule of thumb is put
on the biggest heater you can find/afford but plan on the
expeditious 180 no matter how robust you belive your heater
to be.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
Good Morning Chuck,
Believe 'twas I who mentioned a strut switch.
In any case it is switch mounted on a landing gear
strut that switches something on or off when the
aircraft is airborne.
Such a switch is often used to prevent gear retraction
when the aircraft is on the ground.
It is not at all uncommon to have a strut switch on a
nose gear that will actuate a relay which controls
multiple functions when the aircraft is airborne.
The dual heat pitot tube has often been activated by a
nose gear strut switch on airplanes I have flown.
I have never seen a pilot activated switch that
handled that function, but I see no reason why one
could not be installed if that is your desire.
You could even have multiple heat choices if you
wanted the added complication.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Chuck Jensen wrote:
> Jensen"
>
> Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's
> stupid to fly in
> ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However,
> the question stands,
> how does one knock down the heat and current draw.
> Richard mentioned a
> 'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone
> enlighten us
> non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is
> being in the clouds,
> close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as
> soon not have to
> turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the
> battery dry in short
> order; I'd rather it be in long order.
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:31 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> Nuckolls, III"
> -->
>
>
> Jensen"
> >-->
> >
> >I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was
> designed for a heavier
> >aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high
> altitude cold, the
> >pitot was configured to get very hot, with
> consumate amperage demand.
> >Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there
> any way of reducing
> >the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch
> would be fine...I
> >don't need to be able to brand someone!) with a
> consumate reduction in
> >amperage demand?
>
> Altitude and speed have little to do with a pitot
> tube's
> need to transfer heat to the surface. The kind of
> ice that
> a pitot tube is expected to handle happens at
> lower altitudes
> and relatively slow speeds. It's the super-cooled
> water droplets
> that freeze instantly on contact that represent
> the largest
> challenge to the pitot tube's ability to shed
> ice.
>
> If you've ever witnessed an ice-tunnel test on a
> piece
> of aviation de-ice equipment, you'd realize that
> if your
> pitot tube is being seriously challenged, then
> knowing
> altitude and airspeed are probably the least of
> your concerns.
>
> Icing conditions you're likely to survive can
> probably be
> shed by a relatively whimpy pitot tube deice
> heater but these
> are exceedingly difficult things to quantify.
> Pitot tubes
> we THOUGHT were adequate 30 years ago are scoffed
> at today.
>
> Intuitively, your assertion is not in error, ANY
> amount of
> heat will shed SOME ice. SOME ice is survivable
> while OTHER
> ice is not. Given the changes in de-ice
> certification protocols
> over the years, it becomes difficult to put
> numbers on "any",
> "some" and "other". So difficult that for anyone
> to offer you
> advice advocating "this many watts as opposed to
> that many
> watts" may be blowing smoke you-know-where.
>
> When that stuff starts appearing anywhere on your
> airplane
> is not the time to be experimenting with the
> adequacy of
> your pitot heater decisions. The best rule of
> thumb is put
> on the biggest heater you can find/afford but
> plan on the
> expeditious 180 no matter how robust you belive
> your heater
> to be.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Click on
> about
> provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Belly Com Antenna Shadowing |
| From: | "Snow, Daniel A." <Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com> |
I'm getting ready to mount my bent-whip com antenna on the belly of my
RV-9A (tricycle gear). I would like to mount it near the main landing
gear weldment forward of the spar where the bottom skin is thicker and
where I can easily reach the BNC connector during flight. Can anyone
give me an idea how much shadowing will occur from the gear leg?
Thanks
Daniel Snow
RV-9A, Electrical
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing |
| From: | "N777TY" <microsmurfer(at)yahoo.com> |
It works fine in that location.
--------
RV-7A
N777TY (res)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79001#79001
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Robert Sultzbach wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
> Staying out of icing if possible is good advice. I
>lost pitot static instruments 2 or 3 times in a full
>deicing equipped Navy jet over a 3 year period.
>
I've been following this thread, and this post begs the question I've
been mulling over.
What good is a heated pitot in an airplane without deicing equipment?
I'm thinking that if the pitot is covered in ice, then so is the rest of
the plane. Your airspeed is now next to useless, because all those
stall speed numbers are now meaningless. Whatever they were before,
they changed when the ice modified all the airfoils and the CG. A
cockpit referenced backup altimeter would seem to give the best bang for
the $time$...not terribly accurate, but sufficient to keep you out of
cumulous granite until you can improve your situation.
Ernest (a sunny day flyer).
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing |
Daniel,
I just ordered a bent whip antenna to mount on the belly of the RV-9 I am
building. I am considering mounting it on the other side of the fuselage so
that the co-pilot can reach it. Why? I thought that if I ever have a radio
failure and have to switch to hand held then I will just ask the co-pilot to
hook up the radio rather than me doing it while trying to fly and navigate.
If I don't have a co-pilot at that moment then I guess I will get to
practice my "lost comm." procedures. I remember during my initial flight
training many years ago my instructor would yank the microphone out of my
hand and tell me, "The Wright brothers invented the airplane not Marconi,
FLY the Plane".
Mike Ice
RV-9, Electrical
----- Original Message -----
From: "Snow, Daniel A." <Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 4:13 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing
>
>
> I'm getting ready to mount my bent-whip com antenna on the belly of my
> RV-9A (tricycle gear). I would like to mount it near the main landing
> gear weldment forward of the spar where the bottom skin is thicker and
> where I can easily reach the BNC connector during flight. Can anyone
> give me an idea how much shadowing will occur from the gear leg?
>
> Thanks
>
> Daniel Snow
> RV-9A, Electrical
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
Didn't your CFII tell you to break the glass on the VSI if that happens. But
your altimeter wouldn't be effected by a pitot blockage. We all have heated
static ports, right? Alternate static air valves?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Christley
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
Robert Sultzbach wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
> Staying out of icing if possible is good advice. I
>lost pitot static instruments 2 or 3 times in a full
>deicing equipped Navy jet over a 3 year period.
>
I've been following this thread, and this post begs the question I've
been mulling over.
What good is a heated pitot in an airplane without deicing equipment?
I'm thinking that if the pitot is covered in ice, then so is the rest of
the plane. Your airspeed is now next to useless, because all those
stall speed numbers are now meaningless. Whatever they were before,
they changed when the ice modified all the airfoils and the CG. A
cockpit referenced backup altimeter would seem to give the best bang for
the $time$...not terribly accurate, but sufficient to keep you out of
cumulous granite until you can improve your situation.
Ernest (a sunny day flyer).
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Chuck,
Thank you for addressing this scenario. I, too, would like to hear others
respond. As for me, icing or not, if I lose my main alternator, I would
switch on Endurance mode (which is only 8 amps...thus, no pitot) and land
that puppy ASAP. This is not an emergent situation. Not so with your stock
Cessna.
A well designed electrical system can make a huge difference in the outcome
of a flight.
Bret Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 7:13 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
> ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands,
> how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a
> 'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
> non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds,
> close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
> turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
> order; I'd rather it be in long order.
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:31 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> -->
>
>
>>-->
>>
>>I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was designed for a heavier
>>aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high altitude cold, the
>>pitot was configured to get very hot, with consumate amperage demand.
>>Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there any way of reducing
>>the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch would be fine...I
>>don't need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate reduction in
>>amperage demand?
>
> Altitude and speed have little to do with a pitot tube's
> need to transfer heat to the surface. The kind of ice that
> a pitot tube is expected to handle happens at lower altitudes
> and relatively slow speeds. It's the super-cooled water droplets
> that freeze instantly on contact that represent the largest
> challenge to the pitot tube's ability to shed ice.
>
> If you've ever witnessed an ice-tunnel test on a piece
> of aviation de-ice equipment, you'd realize that if your
> pitot tube is being seriously challenged, then knowing
> altitude and airspeed are probably the least of your concerns.
>
> Icing conditions you're likely to survive can probably be
> shed by a relatively whimpy pitot tube deice heater but these
> are exceedingly difficult things to quantify. Pitot tubes
> we THOUGHT were adequate 30 years ago are scoffed at today.
>
> Intuitively, your assertion is not in error, ANY amount of
> heat will shed SOME ice. SOME ice is survivable while OTHER
> ice is not. Given the changes in de-ice certification protocols
> over the years, it becomes difficult to put numbers on "any",
> "some" and "other". So difficult that for anyone to offer you
> advice advocating "this many watts as opposed to that many
> watts" may be blowing smoke you-know-where.
>
> When that stuff starts appearing anywhere on your airplane
> is not the time to be experimenting with the adequacy of
> your pitot heater decisions. The best rule of thumb is put
> on the biggest heater you can find/afford but plan on the
> expeditious 180 no matter how robust you belive your heater
> to be.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: VOR antenna splitter? |
| From: | "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> |
I have the same setup, GNS430 and SL30. I attached a BNC T-connector directly to
the VOR/GS input connection on the splitter. Connected VOR/GS antenna cable
to 1 branch of the T, and ran a short cable to the SL30 from the other branch
of the T. That way, SL30 gets both VOR and GS, while the 430 gets the split outputs
from the splitter. I don't know how much signal loss I have, but it has
worked well for almost 2 years. The SL30 does pick up the glideslope a bit sooner
than the 430. I haven't noticed a consistent difference in VOR range between
the two.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79066#79066
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
>Didn't your CFII tell you to break the glass on the VSI if that happens. But
>your altimeter wouldn't be effected by a pitot blockage. We all have heated
>static ports, right? Alternate static air valves?
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>
>
Hard to do without a mechanical VSI 8*) Breaking the glass on your
EFIS is just not pretty. If I did have a mechanical VSI, I still
wouldn't break the glass on it. Just no point in going around busting
up perfectly good instruments.
I assume that if ice is building up to block the pitot, the static is
very close to being next in line. Then you have to be aware enough to
notice that something is sneaking up on you. I've never had it happen,
but what I understand is that the meter slowly becomes more and more
innacurate. It doesn't just fall over dead. A backup device feeding
from a safe alternate source (like cabin air), will give you a much
quicker heads up.
That might be a good feature to have on an EFIS. Compare the cabin to
static pressures and raise an alarm if they get out of range...then
display both 'altitudes' if the pilot chooses.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing |
Why not run coax to a bulkhead jack on the panel so either one of you
can reach it with a patch cord from the handheld?
Regarding antenna location, I doubt you'll notice shadowing from the
gear legs. I have done my RV-6A this way and it's not an operational
issue. I abandoned wingtip antennas due to shadowing and a subsequent
turtledeck location due to severe RF in the cockpit (headphones) due
to _lack of_ shadowing. I could not ameliorate that problem with
ferrites on the headset cabling, so I gave up and moved the comm whip
to the belly between the gear legs where it apparently belongs ;-).
You will likely experience front-end overload when close to another
transmitter- signals will sound garbled- but that's not shadowing and
should not depend much on antenna location anyway.
Best,
-Stormy
On 12/4/06, Michael T. Ice wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> I just ordered a bent whip antenna to mount on the belly of the RV-9 I am
> building. I am considering mounting it on the other side of the fuselage so
> that the co-pilot can reach it. Why? I thought that if I ever have a radio
> failure and have to switch to hand held then I will just ask the co-pilot to
> hook up the radio rather than me doing it while trying to fly and navigate.
> If I don't have a co-pilot at that moment then I guess I will get to
> practice my "lost comm." procedures. I remember during my initial flight
> training many years ago my instructor would yank the microphone out of my
> hand and tell me, "The Wright brothers invented the airplane not Marconi,
> FLY the Plane".
>
> Mike Ice
> RV-9, Electrical
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Snow, Daniel A." <Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 4:13 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Belly Com Antenna Shadowing
>
>
> >
> >
> > I'm getting ready to mount my bent-whip com antenna on the belly of my
> > RV-9A (tricycle gear). I would like to mount it near the main landing
> > gear weldment forward of the spar where the bottom skin is thicker and
> > where I can easily reach the BNC connector during flight. Can anyone
> > give me an idea how much shadowing will occur from the gear leg?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Daniel Snow
> > RV-9A, Electrical
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VOR antenna splitter? |
LOL, it's always the simple solutions that evade me... Thanks much...
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
steveadams
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: VOR antenna splitter?
-->
I have the same setup, GNS430 and SL30. I attached a BNC T-connector
directly to the VOR/GS input connection on the splitter. Connected VOR/GS
antenna cable to 1 branch of the T, and ran a short cable to the SL30 from
the other branch of the T. That way, SL30 gets both VOR and GS, while the
430 gets the split outputs from the splitter. I don't know how much signal
loss I have, but it has worked well for almost 2 years. The SL30 does pick
up the glideslope a bit sooner than the 430. I haven't noticed a consistent
difference in VOR range between the two.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79066#79066
__________ NOD32 1899 (20061204) Information __________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument mounting screw washers |
Awhile back someone mentioned here or on the Glasair.org BB that model
railroad wheel washers were ideal size for the instrument mounting screws. I
can't find the message. I tried the model railroad show in VA Beach this
weekend to no avail. Anyone have a line on where to get these critters?
Mark Banus
Glasair II
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed <ed(at)muellerartcover.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Super-Battery pedigree? |
I seem to recall that some Mazda Miata's (not all) had a special battery
with an ~10 year life span. Maybe follow that lead.
Ed Mueller
N3730G
RV10 in Progress
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Got your email from a builder friend of mine. I guess you are an
>> electrics expert, so perhaps you can answer my battery questions.
>>
>> I fly a Glasair I RG that I finished in 1988. In 1986, when I began
>> to work on the retractable gear, I bought a 12 volt sealed battery
>> from a company in Scottsdale, AZ called Electromarketing. I found
>> them in Sport Aviation.
>>
>> Long story short, that battery is still ticking in my Glasair. About
>> 3 years ago in the winter, it didn't have quite enough umph to start,
>> so I put a trickle charger on it that came with the battery. It was
>> so old, that the polarity had fallen off. I figured 50-50 chance and
>> left it overnight charging. The next day the battery was stone dead.
>> It wouldn't close the relay. I figured my magic battery was finally
>> dead. However, I extracted it from the battery box in the tail and
>> brought it home and put a different charger on it. Back to life she
>> came. I had not opened that battery box in over 15 years.
>>
>> Have you ever heard of a battery lasting this long?
>>
>> Do you know what happened to that company? I'd like to buy another
>> battery from them if the need ever arises.
>>
>> I still have the receipt from that company, but have been unable to
>> find them. I asked EAA about it years ago, but never got a response.
>
> I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that company.
> They are probably a distributor and not a manufacturer.
> I'm not aware of anyone having the success you've
> experienced. When that battery finally becomes unserviceable
> in your airplane, you might consider shipping it to
> me. I'll see if I can identify the source.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Super-Battery pedigree? |
They have a special battery alright. It mounts in the trunk and has two
small tubes to vent gases to the outside, but I sure haven't been getting 10
years out of them, but maybe there is a special one that I don't know about.
There is at least one after market battery available for the Miata, but I
usually go to the dealer and pay the Big Price (around $100).
Terry
Rv-8A in progress
'92 Miata since '95
I seem to recall that some Mazda Miata's (not all) had a special battery
with an ~10 year life span. Maybe follow that lead.
Ed Mueller
N3730G
RV10 in Progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ernest Christley
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
-->
Robert Sultzbach wrote:
>-->
>
>Hi Bob,
>
> Staying out of icing if possible is good advice. I
>lost pitot static instruments 2 or 3 times in a full
>deicing equipped Navy jet over a 3 year period.
>
I've been following this thread, and this post begs the question I've
been mulling over.
What good is a heated pitot in an airplane without deicing equipment?
I'm thinking that if the pitot is covered in ice, then so is the rest of
the plane. Your airspeed is now next to useless, because all those
stall speed numbers are now meaningless. Whatever they were before,
they changed when the ice modified all the airfoils and the CG. A
cockpit referenced backup altimeter would seem to give the best bang for
the $time$...not terribly accurate, but sufficient to keep you out of
cumulous granite until you can improve your situation.
Ernest (a sunny day flyer).
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Instrument mounting screw washers |
Have you tried the aviation department at Home Depot?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Banus
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument mounting screw washers
Awhile back someone mentioned here or on the Glasair.org BB that model
railroad wheel washers were ideal size for the instrument mounting
screws. I
can't find the message. I tried the model railroad show in VA Beach this
weekend to no avail. Anyone have a line on where to get these critters?
Mark Banus
Glasair II
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Old Bob,
I reread your posting more carefully this time which leads me to a
follow up question. Now that I understand what a 'strut switch' is
(which I knew by a different name), I'm curious how the 'low heat' for
the ground operations worked. In other words, how did it provide low
heat on the ground and high heat in the air?
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
OldBob Siegfried
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
-->
Good Evening Lynn, Dick and Chuck,
In a previous life, I flew quite a few airplanes that
had a high and a low heat for the pitot tubes. They
were on low for ground operations and on high heat for
airborne use.
I think it was controlled by a strut switch, but not
sure.
Worked well though.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Lynn Riggs wrote:
> I would like to add that the pitot tube should burn
> your hand if you grab it after it has been on for
> more than 1 or 2 minutes.
>
> "Richard E. Tasker" wrote:
> Tasker"
>
> There are ways, but what leads you to believe that
> the pitot is really
> too hot? The whole purpose of the heater is to keep
> it clear in any
> condition - rain, freezing rain, cold ambient, etc.
> Depending on what
> plane you have, you will be flying at upwards of 200
> mph through all
> this (hopefully NOT freezing rain) and the last
> thing you want is for
> the pitot to freeze up.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
> Jensen"
> >
> >I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was
> designed for a heavier
> >aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high
> altitude cold, the
> >pitot was configured to get very hot, with
> consumate amperage demand.
> >Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is there
> any way of reducing
> >the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch
> would be fine...I don't
> >need to be able to brand someone!) with a consumate
> reduction in
> >amperage demand?
> >
> >Chuck Jensen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Please Note:
> No trees were destroyed in the sending of this
> message. We do concede, however,
> that a significant number of electrons may have been
> temporarily inconvenienced.
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lynn A. Riggs
> riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
> St. Paul, MN
> BH #656 Kit #22
>
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
>
> ---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pitot heater solder |
Ok - I'm installing an AN5812 Pitot heater...
The installation instructions specify a QQ-S-571 lead-silver solder.
The connectors do appear to be silver plated.
Doing some searches for QQ-S-571 yielded some silver bearing solders in
the 1.5% to 2.5% range. The QQ-S-561 is the spec for silver solder.
I was wondering if a Sn62Pb36Ag02 alloy would do the trick.
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Instrument mounting screw washers |
Bruce, That was my first stop.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Super-Battery pedigree? |
As the original owner of a '95 Miata I know that the original battery lasted
just a bit longer than ten years, but I also know that here in SoCal the
climate imposes no real demands on the battery so getting that "long" life
probably says nothing about the battery. As far as I can tell (from the
lack of standard size aftermarket batteries that will fit, a total of zero
that I've found) this is a non-standard SIZE specified by Mazda to fit into
a tight space and there is not anything special about the design. Aside
from the size the only difference I can see is the outrageous price.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ed
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Super-Battery pedigree?
I seem to recall that some Mazda Miata's (not all) had a special battery
with an ~10 year life span. Maybe follow that lead.
Ed Mueller
N3730G
RV10 in Progress
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Got your email from a builder friend of mine. I guess you are an
>> electrics expert, so perhaps you can answer my battery questions.
>>
>> I fly a Glasair I RG that I finished in 1988. In 1986, when I began
>> to work on the retractable gear, I bought a 12 volt sealed battery
>> from a company in Scottsdale, AZ called Electromarketing. I found
>> them in Sport Aviation.
>>
>> Long story short, that battery is still ticking in my Glasair. About
>> 3 years ago in the winter, it didn't have quite enough umph to start,
>> so I put a trickle charger on it that came with the battery. It was
>> so old, that the polarity had fallen off. I figured 50-50 chance and
>> left it overnight charging. The next day the battery was stone dead.
>> It wouldn't close the relay. I figured my magic battery was finally
>> dead. However, I extracted it from the battery box in the tail and
>> brought it home and put a different charger on it. Back to life she
>> came. I had not opened that battery box in over 15 years.
>>
>> Have you ever heard of a battery lasting this long?
>>
>> Do you know what happened to that company? I'd like to buy another
>> battery from them if the need ever arises.
>>
>> I still have the receipt from that company, but have been unable to
>> find them. I asked EAA about it years ago, but never got a response.
>
> I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that company.
> They are probably a distributor and not a manufacturer.
> I'm not aware of anyone having the success you've
> experienced. When that battery finally becomes unserviceable
> in your airplane, you might consider shipping it to
> me. I'll see if I can identify the source.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cleones <cleone(at)rr1.net> |
At 05:27 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:
>
>Cleones wrote:
>
>>
>>Hi Bob, In the John Deere alternator and regulator frequently
>>talked about here is the rectifier in the regulator?
>
>Yes.
>
>> And, Is the alternator generating 3 phase AC ?
>
>No. It is single phase AC. There are only two wires coming out of it.
>
>>And, about what voltage is the output of the alternator.
>
>It will go up to about 200 volts open circuit but when loaded it
>will be in the vicinity of 15 volts depending on how you measure it.
>
>> Also, since we know that the # 5 terminal must be connected to
>> voltage or the alternator doesn't work. I have tried this and it
>> is true. Then what is the circuit like? And would it be a good
>> place to connect the overvoltage crowbar to? Enjoyed your
>> lectures at Bloomington recently. Cleone
>
>I interupt the wires into the regulator. In the past Bob has said
>that either into or out of the regulator will do the job but I
>wanted to be able to cut power to the regulator in case it was
>overheating or internally shorted.
>The regulator uses the battery connection to turn itself on and to
>sense the battery voltage so that it can regulate to 14.4 volts nominal output.
>
>Ken
Ken,
> Thanks. Let me consider this. So.. doesn't this indicate
> using a NO relay? This circuit might be carring very high current
> at the time the relay opened. Hopefully the contacts would not be
> welded closed and the spinning alternator would not be delivering
> current to the regulator and we would achieve the desired
> results. I don't know if an attempt to fuse the AC output at a
> little more than the rated current of the alternator is called for
> or not. This might not be advisable because it might cause the
> charging to be shut down unnecesarily. Do you agree with my
> thoughts? Also regarding the # 5 connection of the regulator. I
> started the engine and made sure the alternator was working with
> the wire connected and then redid this with the wire off. The
> first time the voltage was about 14 volts and the second time it
> was just a little over 12. Thanks again.
Cleone
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | RE: Instrument mounting screw washers |
I took the easy way out and countersunk all my instrument mounting screw
holes. (NOT)
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Banus
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Instrument mounting screw washers
Bruce, That was my first stop.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | RE: Instrument mounting screw washers |
I take it that what you're looking for is a flat washer with the same
diameter as the screw head. Will you need #4, #6, and #8's?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Banus
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Instrument mounting screw washers
Bruce, That was my first stop.
November 23, 2006 - December 04, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gj